# Heel Lifts



## Greg (Oct 10, 2008)

Hawkshot99 was nice enough to shoot some over to me. I just duct taped them onto the bottom of my liner for now. Seems like they do help me keep better shin pressure. Anyone else use them? Looking forward to trying them out and putting on the ski boots definitely fed the jones.


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## roark (Oct 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> Hawkshot99 was nice enough to shoot some over to me. I just duct taped them onto the bottom of my liner for now. Seems like they do help me keep better shin pressure. Anyone else use them? Looking forward to trying them out and putting on the ski boots definitely fed the jones.


ramp angle is tricky. fwiw, when I saw Jeff he actually shimmed up the toes a bit. I notice the lack of angle when I ski my AT setup with freerides - feels like I;m in the backseat more often.

Ultimately, I dunnno. Try it out, see if it works.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 10, 2008)

I have them in my boots.  Seems to help (or not harm).  Bootfitter put them in there based on my stance.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Oct 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Hawkshot99 was nice enough to shoot some over to me. *I just duct taped them onto the bottom of my liner* for now. Seems like they do help me keep better shin pressure. Anyone else use them? Looking forward to trying them out and putting on the ski boots definitely fed the jones.





roark said:


> *ramp angle is tricky*. fwiw, when I saw Jeff he actually shimmed up the toes a bit. I notice the lack of angle when I ski my AT setup with freerides - feels like I;m in the backseat more often.
> 
> Ultimately, I dunnno. Try it out, see if it works.





RootDKJ said:


> I have them in my boots.  Seems to help (or not harm).  *Bootfitter put them in there based on my stance*.



In the dark days before I brought my boots to a professional fitter I use to trial and error with my boots too. I like things better now.


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## campgottagopee (Oct 11, 2008)

I've shimmed my boots for years. For me it wasn't to get more forward or what have you it's always been about taking up ANY space to have a super snug fit. I like being able to press down on my big toe and start turning:grin:


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## bigbog (Oct 11, 2008)

*....not too much....stay balanced..*

Yah, Greg...you'll hear it from Jeff..& others....  Adding some heel lift opens my ankle(flexion) up and the 1deg toe shim keeps me balanced...but of course the binding's ramp affects alignment/balance too...but the great news is we can change that part...


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 12, 2008)

bigbog said:


> Yah, Greg...you'll hear it from Jeff..& others....  Adding some heel lift opens my ankle(flexion) up and the 1deg toe shim keeps me balanced...but of course the binding's ramp affects alignment/balance too...but the great news is we can change that part...



a heel lift...and a toe shim (lift)   think about that for a while.  
  Heel lifts can be like ritalin...over perscribed.  Too much and you'll end up in the backseat or you'll start washing the ends of your turns.  Personally, I'm happier with as much range of motion as I can get...calf spoiler is the first thing to go and fwd lean is backed off as much as possible...typically ~15deg.  I don't have big calves (okay, barely any calves) so on first glance you'd think i need to add more to the spoiler rather than remove it...but all that does is remove range of motion and ankle flex...so to take up the volume I pad the tongue and then top it off with a booster strap.  End result is a more upright stance, longer range of motion in my ankles, and with the padded tongue and booster strap I've got constant pressure on my shins and instant gas pedal on the big toe.  Your ankle is the most important joint when it comes to balance, look to increase your range of motion in your ankle and you'll enhance your ability to stay in balance.


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## severine (Oct 12, 2008)

The Nordica Olympia Beast 10s that I bought automatically come with them.  I don't know yet how helpful they will be as the only time I've skied in these boots was when they had the wrongly-made footbeds (which lifted my heel even higher because they were wrongly-made and really screwed things up).  I have heard good things, though, so I'm hoping they help somewhat.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm not saying that all heel lifts are a bad thing, just that there are sometimes other ways to get in balance and some of the balance equation is counter intiutive...ie more and more heel lift will eventually put you in the back seat...so will more and more forward lean.  They need to be thought of as a circular relationship, not linear....and balance in skiing isn't one position, its very fluid and a "balanced" stance changes with turn shape, conditions, and terrain..range of motion is an important piece of that changing puzzle.  Anyone looking to experiment with a heel lift should...and then take it out and put it in between the tongue of your liner and the top buckle and see how that works.


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## skidmarks (Oct 13, 2008)

*Balance*



eastcoastpowderhound said:


> I'm not saying that all heel lifts are a bad thing, just that there are sometimes other ways to get in balance .


I agree with eastcoastpowderhound that heel lifts are not a fix it all. Fore-Aft balance is real important if you want to be over the ski's sweet spot. I tend to remove the calf spoiler also and back off the forward lean. Seems like a lot of boots have way to much forward lean.

Standing in you equipment with some light tongue pressure but not flexed you should be able to drop a plumb line from the center of your hip  through the mid sole mark of the boot. If you want I can get you some pictures of this.  This simple test lets you see if you're way off or not. If you are off the mark keep in mind different bindings can have different delta angles so it could be the binding causing the problem.

I stole this graphic that shows what we are talking about


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 13, 2008)

skidmarks said:


> I agree with eastcoastpowderhound that heel lifts are not a fix it all. Fore-Aft balance is real important if you want to be over the ski's sweet spot. I tend to remove the calf spoiler also and back off the forward lean. Seems like a lot of boots have way to much forward lean.
> 
> Standing in you equipment with some light tongue pressure but not flexed you should be able to drop a plumb line from the center of your hip  through the mid sole mark of the boot. If you want I can get you some pictures of this.  This simple test lets you see if you're way off or not. If you are off the mark keep in mind different bindings can have different delta angles so it could be the binding causing the problem.
> 
> I stole this graphic that shows what we are talking about



nice pics to illustrate the point!


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## bigbog (Oct 13, 2008)

*...a definite YES...*



eastcoastpowderhound said:


> ......Heel lifts can be like ritalin...over perscribed.  Too much and you'll end up in the backseat or you'll start washing the ends of your turns...(snipped).........then top it off with a booster strap.  End result is a more upright stance, longer range of motion in my ankles, and with the padded tongue and booster strap I've got constant pressure on my shins and instant gas pedal on the big toe.  Your ankle is the most important joint when it comes to balance, look to increase your range of motion in your ankle and you'll enhance your ability to stay in balance.



Yes...exactly...and when I reach my limit..not only does it feel like I'm in highheels...I fall into the backseat bigtime
*I don't think this can be said any better...

$.01


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## skidmarks (Oct 13, 2008)

*Krypton Love*



bigbog said:


> Yes...exactly...and when I reach my limit..not only does it feel like I'm in highheels...I fall into the backseat bigtime
> *I don't think this can be said any better...



What boots do you have?


If you're looking for a new boot the Dalbello Kryptons are very easy to set up and tune. The design of the boot makes it very easy to flex and it has a more upright stance to start with. They are a great free-ride boot.


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## lloyd braun (Oct 13, 2008)

a heel lift in my opinion should only be used to relieve pressure created by dorsiflexion inflexibility. That is when you have a short range of motion as you try and bring your toes to your shin. The heel lift creates a different angle for your ankle. If you ski and have burning in the backs of your legs then you may need a heel lift. 

Remember there are no short cuts to proper form and excecution in skiing. Don't try gimmicks to make yourself a better skier!


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## skidmarks (Oct 14, 2008)

lloyd braun said:


> a heel lift in my opinion should only be used to relieve pressure created by dorsiflexion inflexibility. That is when you have a short range of motion as you try and bring your toes to your shin. The heel lift creates a different angle for your ankle. If you ski and have burning in the backs of your legs then you may need a heel lift.



Yes that's what we've been talking about.



lloyd braun said:


> Remember there are no short cuts to proper form and excecution in skiing. Don't try gimmicks to make yourself a better skier!



If your stance/balance is bad, you're dead in the water.


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## Greg (Oct 14, 2008)

lloyd braun said:


> Remember there are no short cuts to proper form and excecution in skiing. Don't try gimmicks to make yourself a better skier!



Thanks. :roll: How about I do try them and if I don't like them, I can just pull them out, hmmm ...?


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## o3jeff (Oct 14, 2008)

Greg, if they don't feel like enough let me know I pulled out some nice cork ones out of my old boots, you can try doubling them up;-)


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## skidmarks (Oct 14, 2008)

Greg said:


> Thanks. :roll: How about I do try them and if I don't like them, I can just pull them out, hmmm ...?



What if we watch you try them at MT Snow Mid week ASAP after opening day. November 3 or 10th looks good. I could film you and we can post the results.

Last year we went on the 14th!! Won't be long. I'll bring the heel lifts and beer for apres.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 14, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> Greg, if they don't feel like enough let me know I pulled out some nice cork ones out of my old boots, you can try doubling them up;-)



I gave him 2 sets already.


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## Beetlenut (Oct 14, 2008)

I have a pair in my boots. I've played around quite a bit with the foot beds and lifts. I settled on a thinner pair of lifts after experimenting with different thicknesses. I think they help me two ways. They help me achive a centered stance, and help raise my calf up (fat calf) to prevent pinching. I also run a pair of booster straps to keep the tounge tight to my shin.


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## Greg (Oct 14, 2008)

skidmarks said:


> What if we watch you try them at MT Snow Mid week ASAP after opening day. November 3 or 10th looks good. I could film you and we can post the results.
> 
> Last year we went on the 14th!! Won't be long. I'll bring the heel lifts and beer for apres.



http://forums.alpinezone.com/38079-skiing-mount-snow-vermont-friday-11-14-a.html

Aiming for 11/14. Oh, and I have you beat. I skied Snow with the AZ crew on the 12th last year! :razz:


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## skidmarks (Oct 14, 2008)

Greg said:


> http://forums.alpinezone.com/38079-skiing-mount-snow-vermont-friday-11-14-a.html
> 
> Aiming for 11/14. Oh, and I have you beat. I skied Snow with the AZ crew on the 12th last year! :razz:


 Nice Telemarkers Too!!

I should have went on Monday!  So that's the plan for this season.


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## lloyd braun (Oct 15, 2008)

skidmarks said:


> Yes that's what we've been talking about.



really? cause it seemed people were talking about using the heal lift to improve other aspects.



> stance/balance is bad, you're dead in the water.



I can agree to this comment in only a small way. You can compensate and overcome a bad stance with good technique and form.


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## lloyd braun (Oct 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> Thanks. :roll: How about I do try them and if I don't like them, I can just pull them out, hmmm ...?



Why would you try something that you don't need or won't help you. If you are here asking the question about heel lifts you must not be versed in what a heel lift does or was designed for. 

Use the lift if you have flex issues, get a custom footbed to give you a proper stance. Like I said before there are no short cuts...............


Would a PGA pro not score well with a out dated set of clubs?

Would a Tennis Pro be able to beat you with a wood racket?

Would Bode kick your ass with skinny skis?

My point is the equipment doesn't make you better, so don't look to it for answers!


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## skidmarks (Oct 15, 2008)

lloyd braun said:


> Why would you try something that you don't need or won't help you. If you are here asking the question about heel lifts you must not be versed in what a heel lift does or was designed for.
> 
> Use the lift if you have flex issues, get a custom footbed to give you a proper stance. Like I said before there are no short cuts...............
> 
> ...



I'm looking for my Jack Kramer Autograph....................


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 15, 2008)

lloyd braun said:


> Why would you try something that you don't need or won't help you. If you are here asking the question about heel lifts you must not be versed in what a heel lift does or was designed for. !


While I think heel lifts are over perscribed, it doesn't mean they aren't helpful in dialing in fore-aft balance for some people...Greg could be one of them,but won't know unless he plays around with it himself or spends some time with a competent bootfitter.



lloyd braun said:


> Use the lift if you have flex issues, get a custom footbed to give you a proper stance. Like I said before there are no short cuts...............


Footbeds, as critical as they are, don't have a significant impact on fore-aft balance.  



lloyd braun said:


> Would a PGA pro not score well with a out dated set of clubs?
> 
> Would a Tennis Pro be able to beat you with a wood racket?
> 
> ...



Would Tiger get his ass kicked by other PGA pros using a set of 1980s clubs...you betcha.
Would Venus and Serena have won the Olympic doubles using Billy Jean King's old rackets...hell no.
Would Bode see a podium on the world cup this year on Phil and Steve's old K2s...not a chance.  
Equipment absolutely has an impact on your performance...if you don't think so I've got some 1994 Volkl P10 SLCs in a 205cm that I'll send you to use this winter and you can sacrifice your Gotamas/Mantras and the rest of your quiver to Ullr.  Like you said, it won't have any impact on your skiing right?:blink:


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> While I think heel lifts are over perscribed, it doesn't mean they aren't helpful in dialing in fore-aft balance for some people...Greg could be one of them,but won't know unless he plays around with it himself or spends some time with a competent bootfitter.
> 
> Footbeds, as critical as they are, don't have a significant impact on fore-aft balance.



Thank you. This is my point. I was fitted by Jeff Bokum. He in fact recommended playing with the heel lifts if I wanted to. I also have custom orthotics built by him. Stabilizing the heel via a foot bed is the foundation for all other adjustments, fore/aft balancing, canting, etc.

As someone looking to improve in the bumps, it's better to be in a more aggressive and forward position, than in a standard all-mountain centered position. I know there's a whole concept about how too much ramp angle can put you in the backseat, etc., but throwing in some heel lifts that amount to probably less than a quarter inch isn't going to hurt too much, I don't think. Like I said, if I don't like them, or certainly if I feel they are inhibiting me, it takes 2 minutes to pull them out.

I know equipment doesn't make the skier, but in some cases the right tool for the job or tweaking your setup can help. Our buddy lloyd made a lot of assumptions about what I'm trying to accomplish here and where I'm starting from.


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## bigbog (Oct 15, 2008)

*....*



eastcoastpowderhound said:


> a heel lift...and a toe shim (lift)   think about that for a while....


*ecph*,
The lift is limited, but it does make a wider range of flex possible for my dorsiflexion issue...but by itself, does add a little too much forward lean..putting my upperbody a little too forward when not aggressively flexing.  Probably could solve that with 1.5->2deg shim under toe/binding.  Combining the wide forefoot/calf, pronation, shorter tibia(me =5'8") issues leaves me with a somewhat smaller envelope, in between tumbling forward or falling backwards into backseat, where everything feels/works great.


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## skidmarks (Oct 15, 2008)

bigbog said:


> *ecph*,
> The lift is limited, but it does make a wider range of flex possible for my dorsiflexion issue...but by itself, does add a little too much forward lean..putting my upperbody a little too forward when not aggressively flexing.  Probably could solve that with 1.5->2deg shim under toe/binding.  Combining the wide forefoot/calf, pronation, shorter tibia(me =5'8") issues leaves me with a somewhat smaller envelope, in between tumbling forward or falling backwards into backseat, where everything feels/works great.



You are talking about external toe lift and that can be done by adding a plate to the bottom of the boot sole too with lots of boots. Most racers have their boots lifted using these boot sole plates. If it's the binding that's at fault (some older look/rossi axial style bindings) shims were available as well.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 15, 2008)

bigbog said:


> *ecph*,
> The lift is limited, but it does make a wider range of flex possible for my dorsiflexion issue...but by itself, does add a little too much forward lean..putting my upperbody a little too forward when not aggressively flexing.  Probably could solve that with 1.5->2deg shim under toe/binding.  Combining the wide forefoot/calf, pronation, shorter tibia(me =5'8") issues leaves me with a somewhat smaller envelope, in between tumbling forward or falling backwards into backseat, where everything feels/works great.



it (heel lift) doesn't add forward lean, it adds ramp angle...but many times when someone is being balanced in their boots there is no consideration to the ramp angle that the binding is already adding...so if you've been dialed in fore aft in ONLY the boot and through that process, increased your ramp angle (heel lift), then you're adding additional ramp angle when you step into your bindings...and if you have more than one ski, may have diff overall ramp angles from one set to another.  Adding a heel lift to the boot increases the ramp angle while adding a toe lift to the boot sole or toe piece of the binding decreases the ramp angle (okay, delta angle, but also effective _overall_ ramp angle).  Crazy as it sounds, in some cases (mostly racers) people are adding a toe lift to bring their hips FORWARD...the theory being that raising the toe will force the skier to move their hips forward to stay out of the back seat...but that requires you to bend more at the ankle.  
     Another method for dealing with limited dorsiflexion is a stiffer boot and also making sure that you've removed anything that takes away from your range of motion in your ankle...ie the forward lean adjustment (stand it up) calf spoiler (remove it) and pad the tongue of your boot so as soon as you bend your knee that energy is going right into the boot, your forefoot and to the ski...with your limited range of motion you can't waste it with slop up top.  Watever you do, make sure it includes the ski and binding in the calculation otherwise it'll all change when you click in.


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## ed-drum (Oct 15, 2008)

Heel lifts never changed my stance. They put my foot tighter in the boot to reduce heel lifting in the boot.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 15, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Heel lifts never changed my stance. They put my foot tighter in the boot to reduce heel lifting in the boot.



Same for me.


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## skidmarks (Oct 15, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Heel lifts never changed my stance. They put my foot tighter in the boot to reduce heel lifting in the boot.



You may have heel lifting because you have limited dorsal flexion.

In this case you want 2 cold micro brews and an assistant. Stand bare foot on a hard floor surface feet skier's width apart. place an 8.5*11 sheet of paper under you heels. Have your assistant tug back on the paper it should be firmly held by your heels. Start pushing your knees forward at what point does the paper slide out? Have a drink and do again. The further forward you can push your knees before the paper is released the greater your range of motion and the more dorsal flexion your ankles have.

If you have heel lift it's often because you don't have enough range of motion for the angles created by Boot Ramp Angle + forward lean combined with your need to flex forward.


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## ed-drum (Oct 16, 2008)

I didn't say I have a heel lift problem. I should have said that it will reduce heel lift with people that have the problem. I like the suggestion though. Especially that micro brew part! My new Full Tilt boots are quite incredible with the way they fit, how warm they are and the fact that there is no shin bang problem. They feel as though I control the boot, not the boot controlling me. Blaming your equipment on technique is like blaming a musical instrument on your technique. I know skiers that blow me away and their equipment is beat to death.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 16, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Heel lifts never changed my stance. They put my foot tighter in the boot to reduce heel lifting in the boot.



you'd be better off padding the area around your achillies or, if you've got a lot of slop in the heel, c-pads...both will create a better heel pocket and increased heel hold...padding the "throat" (lower area of the tongue in front of the ankle) also helps hold the heel down and in the pocket.
  The heel lift did change your fore/aft...can't help but have an impact...like a tree falling in the woods, just because no one heard it doesn't mean it didn't make a sound.  this is one of the reasons why a few of us have said heel lifts are over used...you can address fit issues by other means and not have the impact on fore/aft balance.  I guess my point is a heel lift is often times a lazy bootfitters cure-all...boot tight in the toes - heel lift, slop in the heel - heel lift, not enough width at the ball of the foot - heel lift, you're a woman - big blue heel lift...in many cases it helps the symptoms but not the real problem and can have unintended consequences.


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## o3jeff (Oct 21, 2008)

Greg, are you gonna put these in the new boots or is the stance good without them?


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## Greg (Oct 21, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> Greg, are you gonna put these in the new boots or is the stance good without them?



No silly. :lol: I'm going to roll with the Kryptons based on how skidmarks set me up.


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## skidmarks (Oct 21, 2008)

Greg said:


> No silly. :lol: I'm going to roll with the Kryptons based on how skidmarks set me up.



Did you try them yet?


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## Greg (Oct 22, 2008)

skidmarks said:


> Did you try them yet?



I guess I could wait for a heavy frost and give them a go, but I think I'll wait until the ski areas open...


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## tjf67 (Oct 22, 2008)

Greg said:


> I guess I could wait for a heavy frost and give them a go, but I think I'll wait until the ski areas open...



What no carpeted stairs in your house?


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## jack97 (Oct 22, 2008)

Greg said:


> Hawkshot99 was nice enough to shoot some over to me. I just duct taped them onto the bottom of my liner for now. Seems like they do help me keep better shin pressure. Anyone else use them? Looking forward to trying them out and putting on the ski boots definitely fed the jones.




 :blink: what happened!! 

heel lifts and now a krypton luvfest :smash:


of course I use heel lifts, the thing I noticed is that I can get into a deeper absorbtion. try doing squats flat footed, better yet with ski boots, the further one can squat, the more absorbtion range one can get. also sking with the front of the ski is where it is at.....


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 22, 2008)

jack97 said:


> :blink: what happened!!
> 
> heel lifts and now a krypton luvfest :smash:
> 
> ...



half of the ski BAH! :smash:  ski the whole fking ski or stay in the lodge.


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## bigbog (Oct 22, 2008)

*...*

:lol: :lol: :lol:........Are we getting close to the breaking point or what!?? ...I sure am.

SteveD


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## Greg (Oct 22, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> What no carpeted stairs in your house?



Actually no, but my wife's been pushing for a runner. Maybe they make one out of that dry slope material... :lol:


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