# Killington - Infrastructure Collapse Pending



## Highway Star (Sep 9, 2015)

*Killington's Impending Infrastructure Collapse*

All this talk about POWDR's Killington "capital improvements" (aka basic maintenance) lead me to ask the question: 

*The way Killington is going, where will they be in 10 years? *

I first skied Killington in 1988, but started skiing there regularly in 2004. Ten years ago, in 2005, there was plenty of talk about neglect, old lifts and old lodges. Now ten years on, upkeep of the infrastructure has improved, but the rate of replacement is sorely lacking.

Since 2005, they have installed one new lift (reusing old towers), replaced a lodge and a section of a lodge. They have removed two lifts without replacing them. That is a net loss. 

*In the past 15 years (2000-2015), Killington has installed one lift (Skye Peak Quad).

In the 15 years prior (1985-2000), Killington installed 2 gondolas, 4 detachable quads, 3 fixed grip quads, and 2 doublechairs.* In most cases, these lifts replaced existing lifts that were 20-25 years old and lacked capacity. 

Does anybody else see a problem with Killington's current rate of re-investment?

Snowshed and Superstar Quads were built in 1987. They are 28 years old. They are two of the oldest HSQ in the country. Pico's two HSQ are from '87 and '88. Are there any plans to replace these aging primary lifts, like Killington's competitors have done? If these lifts are not replaced in the next ten years, they will be older than any of the oldest HSQ's operating today. 

Here's an example of an old HSQ, that was removed from Breck and sold after 20 years in service:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeCa3Ud5cps

Love the comment:


> I did 5 years as a liftie when I was younger been skiing for 20 years and this sketchiest chairlift i've ever ridden. Makes so many noises I've never heard on any other lift makes me wonder if i'm going to reach the top everytime.




*The only other detach quad in VT that is as old is Mount Snow's summit quad. Killington has FOUR of these lifts.*

Stowe recently replaced it's 1986 ForeRunner quad, which was very well maintained. But it was 25 years old, so they replaced it. BAM. Looks nice, doesn't it...?

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/lifts/viewlift.php?id=826

In the next ten years, Killington will have multiple lifts that will be getting dangerously old. We are already seeing an increased rate of failure with the rampant lift stopages. How are they possibly going to replace these lifts when they are not showing any willingness to spend real money on the mountain? What if someone is looking to buy property at Killington.......where will the mountain be in 10 years? 

*By the year 2025, what will the fate of these other lifts be?*

Bear Quad (1979) - already Killington's oldest primary lift (chairs swapped to quad in 1984), will this still be in service in 10 years, at an astounding 45 years old? Will they drop $3m for a new fixed grip replacement?

Snowshed Doubles - Rebuilt in 1987, but the towers date from 1961. Will the towers make it past 60 years old, or will they be replaced by a new 6-pack lift on snowshed?

North Ridge Triple (1972) - Already appearing on lists of oldest chairlifts in operation, this lift will be 53 years old in 2025. It would have been replaced some time in the last 10 years by any other resort operator.

Snowdon Triple (1973) - Ditto.

Skyeship Gondola (1994) - Hard to imagine, but in 2025, the Skyeship will be 31 years old. That will make it one of the oldest operating Gondola's in the country. I'd be willing to bet Stowe replaces it's Gondola in the next 5 years, while Killington does not replace the Skyeship by 2025.

And lets not even get started with the Lodges. Killington is in serious trouble. If they don't get their act together and start spending some money, they will eventually run out of turd to polish.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2015)

You could always get a pass to Stowe.  Seems that would solve a lot of your problems.

Also, Stowe just rehabbed all of their gondola cars.  I'd say 15 years is a more likely scenario than 5.


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## Highway Star (Sep 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You could always get a pass to Stowe.  Seems that would solve a lot of your problems.
> 
> Also, Stowe just rehabbed all of their gondola cars.  I'd say 15 years is a more likely scenario than 5.



Stowe rehabs their gondi cars like every other year.  Because they don't suck.


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## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2015)

I love Highway Star's split personality.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> *I love Highway Star's split personality.*



It's like an abusive relationship where the woman wont leave.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 9, 2015)

This is a re-post from the K-zone forum.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This is a re-post from the K-zone forum.



So...?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Sep 9, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> So...?



I thought that people interested in this topic may want to see the responses there.  Why so touchy?


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## Domeskier (Sep 9, 2015)

Forget Killington.  How many years will I have to wait until Alpine Zone can finally support giant animated avatars??


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that people interested in this topic may want to see the responses there.  Why so touchy?



You could of said something like "he posted this on kzone, and there were some (interesting) responses".   You didn't.  

I actually found the post to be interesting.  And, since I can remember skiing Killington before the superstar HSQ, it made me feel a bit old!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## steamboat1 (Sep 9, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Stowe rehabs their gondi cars like every other year.


Not true.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 9, 2015)

Thanks for providing another list of reasons why I'm glad that I don't ski at Killington


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2015)

One thing about replacement:  the ski market from 1985-2000 was DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT than this market.  Back then SKI was VERY aggressive and still growing.  Skiing was still a growth (or at least) stable market.  Energy and labor were cheaper.  Capital was relatively easy to get...especially for a ski area that had been profitably run for decades.  SKI was using YAN for their lifts because of price.  Now who do you look to for lifts?  Pretty much "Coke" or "Pepsi".  As a result, there is no real competition and prices for lifts are just that much more.  Sure, Sky Trac is out there, but really, who uses them?  

Also remember that POWDR owns NOTHING--they lease the place.  You should be ragging on the owner...who is SP Lands.  After the PCMR disaster I bet that POWDR will be very cautious with their properties.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 9, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Thanks for providing another list of reasons why I'm glad that I don't ski at Killington



+1


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## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not true.



Thanks Captain Obvious


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## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Sure, Sky Trac is out there, but really, who uses them?



Cannon.


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## ss20 (Sep 9, 2015)

As much as I hate stupid I enjoy talking about lifts so I'll take the bait.



Highway Star said:


> In the past 15 years (2000-2015), Killington has installed one lift (Skye Peak Quad).




True


> In the 15 years prior (1985-2000), Killington installed 2 gondolas, 4 detachable quads, 3 fixed grip quads, and 2 doublechairs.In most cases, these lifts replaced existing lifts that were 20-25 years old and lacked capacity.



Hard to find a mountain that didn't expand in that timeframe.  That's when Okemo installed most of it's lift infrastructure and they've only replaced one lift from the 85-2000 period.  Mount Snow's newest lifts are from 2011, 1997, and 1996... everything else is from 1990 or earlier.



> Snowshed and Superstar Quads were built in 1987. They are 28 years old. They are two of the oldest HSQ in the country. Pico's two HSQ are from '87 and '88. Are there any plans to replace these aging primary lifts, like Killington's competitors have done? If these lifts are not replaced in the next ten years, they will be older than any of the oldest HSQ's operating today.
> 
> Stowe recently replaced it's 1986 ForeRunner quad, which was very well maintained. But it was 27 years old, so they replaced it. BAM. Looks nice, doesn't it...?



The four Killington/Pico HSQ's as well as Barker at Sunday River and the Grand Summit at Mount Snow were all rebuilt.  Essentially all the moving machinery was replaced in 1997, when Yan's grip problems started to show.  Not even the sheaves are original.  From my understanding, the only Yan parts are the terminal chassis and the towers.  Stowe did replace their 1986 HSQ, but the non-moving parts were OK.  The towers and terminal equipment went to Mohawk to create a new Frankenlift.  Hunter's 1987 Poma quad was rebuilt and installed on the West Side.

I expect Snowshed to be replaced within the next 5-10 years by a 6 pack purely because of the village and for increased capacity.  Superstar will run strong for another 15 years.  Now that the Grand Snummit at Mount Snow is running weekends only in mid winter, and it got some new equipment when the Bluebird went in, I believe it won't be taken out for 20+ years.



> *By the year 2025, what will the fate of these other lifts be?*
> 
> Bear Quad (1979) - already Killington's oldest primary lift (chairs swapped to quad in 1984), will this still be in service in 10 years, at an astounding 45 years old? Will they drop $3m for a new fixed grip replacement?
> 
> ...




Happy?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon.



Interesting.  What lift at Cannon is a Sky Trac?


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## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  What lift at Cannon is a Sky Trac?



Well they are tasked to install the t-bar on Mittersil. well actually the T-Bar is manufactured by LST Ropeways of France and will be installed by SkyTrac of Salt Lake City, Utah.


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## Highway Star (Sep 9, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Happy?



Any normal ski resort operator would do those things, or probably would have done them by now.  Based on POWDR's track record, I doubt any of those things will actually happen.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Well they are tasked to install the t-bar on Mittersil. well actually the T-Bar is manufactured by LST Ropeways of France and will be installed by SkyTrac of Salt Lake City, Utah.



Interesting.


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## joshua segal (Sep 9, 2015)

My experience at Killington is that the lifts are open on time and on schedule - unless there is a wind hold.  As long as that remains the case, I'm not too worried.  The summit lodge was their major recent capital expenditure and I suspect their summer improvements were also pricey.  If their summer investment pays off, it will provide them was a more balanced cash flow: not a bad thing if you are running a business!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Also remember that POWDR owns NOTHING--they lease the place.  You should be ragging on the owner...who is SP Lands.  After the PCMR disaster I bet that POWDR will be very cautious with their properties.



Ummm, thought that Powder owns 80% of Killington (the mountain & infrastructure) and 20% of the SP lands at the base, and that SP owns the other 20% of the mountain and 80% of the base lands...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Ummm, thought that Powder owns 80% of Killington (the mountain & infrastructure) and 20% of the SP lands at the base, and that SP owns the other 20% of the mountain and 80% of the base lands...



I don't believe so...unless there was a transaction that occurred since 2007 that I don't know about.  POWDR is the "operator" of the area AFAIK.

Edit:   looks like they did buy the ski area assets.  I had always believed that they leased the area.  I will dig more into this.


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## Bostonian (Sep 9, 2015)

Reading this thread made me laugh... Capital Investments isn't preventive "fixing things up" as HS said.  I am sure they have a rolling 5 year plan and a long range 20 year plan.  K will be just fine...


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## WWF-VT (Sep 9, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that people interested in this topic may want to see the responses there.  Why so touchy?



I think Highway Star should post this whine over at the TGR forums where people are genuinely passionate about Killington.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 9, 2015)

He did land this whine over at the EpicSki forums too:

http://www.epicski.com/t/142556/killington-infrastructure-collapse-pending


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 9, 2015)

Headed for the nelsap for sure.


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## ss20 (Sep 9, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> He did land this whine over at the EpicSki forums too:
> 
> http://www.epicski.com/t/142556/killington-infrastructure-collapse-pending



Top four threads on KillingtonZone are there because of Highway Star http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=c6c30f2fe2d7539d84932aff90cb7f55


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 9, 2015)

I miss the old killington with the full sunrise triple and Rams head lift that went to the summit. 

In all seriousness though, I'd like to know where all the money is going then. I refuse to believe a lodge and a few other small things sucked up all the profits. (And don't say Copper cuz that ain't true)


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## steamboat1 (Sep 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Edit:   looks like they did buy the ski area assets.  I had always believed that they leased the area.  I will dig more into this.


Killington ski area is in Coolidge State Park & is leased from the state by POWDR.

SP Land owns the parking lots, condo's, hotel.

Lets hope POWDR remembers to renew the lease because unlike Utah they don't own the parking lots.


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## mister moose (Sep 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Killington ski area is in Coolidge State Park & is leased from the state by POWDR.



Except for the parts that aren't.  There's a number of parts that are owned, not leased.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 9, 2015)

mister moose said:


> Except for the parts that aren't.  There's a number of parts that are owned, not leased.


Owned by whom?

I know parts of lower Snowshed, Snowdon & Ramshead are not on leased land. I assume SP Land owns them since these are the areas slated for village development.

Is Pico owned or leased?


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## ScottySkis (Sep 10, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Owned by whom?
> 
> I know parts of lower Snowshed, Snowdon & Ramshead are not on leased land. I assume SP Land owns them since these are the areas slated for village development.
> 
> Is Pico owned or leased?



Owned by mother nature.


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## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2015)

Killington will be fine. All this doom and gloom is armwaving. Lifts last forever if maintained.

Skytrac also has two lifts at Haystack. Most of their work has been out west, the Midwest, and NY/PA. They are very capable installers.


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## bigbob (Sep 10, 2015)

From what I have been told, the State of Vt calls them to make sure they are renewing the lease!


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## Bostonian (Sep 10, 2015)

I think a lot of capital improvements money went into improved snow making (guns, pipes, compressors), the new lodge, and other equipment.    Not to mention they mention in a press release this year alone they are spending $6.5M in various improvements including but not limited to "$1M in lift and snowmaking improvements".


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> All this doom and gloom is armwaving.



Yup

The same thing Highwaystar has done for over ten years.  Last I checked Killington is still the most popular ski destination in the East.  With the return of the longer season and work towards becoming more viable in the summer, they're doing just fine.   

The only thing they've done which has been unfortunate is the SRT removal.  As many state, the mountain is broken without it and not just because it offers an alternative to the SPE and it's awful line.  It sucks skiing down skye and getting back over to K1 or Snowdon lifts.  That should be the top priority, not Snowdon lifts.  A HSQ in Snowdon is sexier, but doesn't make the mountain ski better.  A new SRT would.


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## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2015)

I think the plan was/is to replace the Snowdon Quad with a HSQ and move the quad to South Ridge, would be the best of both worlds in my mind. Losing SRT was huge.

Be nice to see their timeline for this, they've been pretty vague.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

I've heard that plan too.  I just think that if it's going to be a long time before they pony up the cash to get a new HSQ for Snowdon, they should bite the bullet and buy a used lift to fix the problem.  I know a lot of people don't want to see a HSQ at Snowdon anyways.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> they should bite the bullet and buy a used lift to fix the problem.



you would think that they could acquire a used double or triple fairly cheaply.  They don't need a quad over there even to assist with getting out of Bear.


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## machski (Sep 10, 2015)

South Ridge lift is so low priority for K.  The old SRT never fully served its original purpose in the first place (the uphill with the big turn was to facilitate early season skiing on Upper South Ridge terrain.  That never panned out and the mid station was abandoned).  While it might be a nice alternative for those in the know, the vast majority of visitors would never ride a SR lift.  This, even a used lift installed requires $$ to install and then $$ to operate and maintain.  Sorry, I see the same for that lift as Bucksaw at SL, no replacement likely ever.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

I think with a little better signage of using it to get to the Canyon would help.

The positive affects of that lift is felt in so many ways.  It's a much different animal than Bucksaw IMO as you can still lap Bucksaw trails from the SQ.

The SRT 

- allows for lapping some nice terrain
- reduces SPE lift lines
- reduces traffic on the Skye Peak terrain
- reduces the clustered@#$ of having to skate around the lodge to get to K1 or ST
- reduces lines to the K1 and ST as people can ski direct into the Canyon from the lift.

Sugarloaf isn't broken without Bucksaw.  Killington is without the SRT.

If there's one type of bitching about Killington I endorse from Highwaystar, it's the removal of the SRT.


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## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2015)

I don't know of any Killington "regulars" who have not mentioned the loss of the SRT as being a big deal to them. The reason it wasn't utilized is because there minimal snowmaking over there and the lift rarely run, meaning people expected it to not be spinning or you simply had no open terrain there.

If I was to do anything I would put a used triple or quad (Snowdon?) in and repair the snowmaking on Lower Pipe Dream. You make snow on it when you make snow on Falls Brook / Bear Cub down to Bear. To me that is a good compromise on retaining the natural style of South Ridge vs being able to capitalize/utilize the pod better. That gives a beginner and intermediate route down with snowmaking and keeps the natural expert runs. Run the lift every weekend.


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## Highway Star (Sep 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup
> 
> The same thing Highwaystar has done for over ten years.  Last I checked Killington is still the most popular ski destination in the East.  With the return of the longer season and work towards becoming more viable in the summer, they're doing just fine.
> 
> The only thing they've done which has been unfortunate is the SRT removal.  As many state, the mountain is broken without it and not just because it offers an alternative to the SPE and it's awful line.  It sucks skiing down skye and getting back over to K1 or Snowdon lifts.  That should be the top priority, not Snowdon lifts.  A HSQ in Snowdon is sexier, but doesn't make the mountain ski better.  A new SRT would.



Wow, you have the long term memory of a squirrel, don't you?  Powder has dones tons and TONS of horrible things in it's past 8 years of ownership.  Which is why their skier visit fell off a cliff, and have only recently recovered somewhat.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

Then go elsewhere.  They won't miss your money I'm sure.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 10, 2015)

South Ridge only ran weekends the last several years it was in service. The Bear quad only runs Fri-Sun now. Even if they put a new lift in I don't see them changing their operating philosophy. As a weekday skier a new lift wouldn't change anything for me.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> One thing about replacement:  the ski market from 1985-2000 was DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT than this market.  Back then SKI was VERY aggressive and still growing.  Skiing was still a growth (or at least) stable market.  Energy and labor were cheaper.  Capital was relatively easy to get...especially for a ski area that had been profitably run for decades.  SKI was using YAN for their lifts because of price.  Now who do you look to for lifts?  Pretty much "Coke" or "Pepsi".  As a result, there is no real competition and prices for lifts are just that much more.  Sure, Sky Trac is out there, but really, who uses them?
> 
> Also remember that POWDR owns NOTHING--they lease the place.  You should be ragging on the owner...who is SP Lands.  After the PCMR disaster I bet that POWDR will be very cautious with their properties.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but werent interest rates much higher from '85-'00 than recently???  so it was much more expensive in that period to do capital  improvements.  I think the reason there was such a binge of lift installation back then was that HSQ were new to the market and so resorts could justify investing in them because the increased capacity made the return on the investment made sense.  replacing existing lifts doesnt increase capacity so its harder to justify it financially.


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> I think the reason there was such a binge of lift installation back then was that HSQ were new to the market and so resorts could justify investing in them because the increased capacity made the return on the investment made sense.  replacing existing lifts doesnt increase capacity so its harder to justify it financially.



Until the lift malfunctions and someone gets hurt.


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## joshua segal (Sep 10, 2015)

The South Ridge had some nice trails with no crowd even on most busy days.  Now, to ski the South Ridge, you've got to take two or three lifts.  I sure hope they put something back there, but I'm not holding my breath...!


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm confused by the claims that Killington needs a SR lift back in place.  I've been skiing at Killington, sporadically at least, since the early 80's. I have never seen a crowd on that lift and I don't get how it could have been a crowd reliever from other lifts. 

I agree the area was a nice place to lap with the SR lift, and I do miss the old lift, at least nostalgically, but objectively I think the SRT was about as essential as DF.


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The South Ridge had some nice trails with no crowd even on most busy days.  Now, to ski the South Ridge, you've got to take two or three lifts.  I sure hope they put something back there, but I'm not holding my breath...!



Never really thought about the void that left.  The few times that I have skied that area that was served by that chair was from K-1.  Not a big fan of that part of the ski area.  Probably since it dumped me below trails that allowed me to get to the to very easily.  Never really thought about this either, there isn't any  summit access from that side.


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## Highway Star (Sep 10, 2015)

I have better reasons to miss south ridge than almost anyone, but I just changed the way I ski the mountain.  You better bet that if I'm going to Bear from the Peak on a good snow day, it's going to be via southridge.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

skifastr said:


> I'm confused by the claims that Killington needs a SR lift back in place.  I've been skiing at Killington, sporadically at least, since the early 80's. I have never seen a crowd on that lift and I don't get how it could have been a crowd reliever from other lifts.
> 
> I agree the area was a nice place to lap with the SR lift, and I do miss the old lift, at least nostalgically, but objectively I think the SRT was about as essential as DF.



I've never seen a crowd at the SR lift either, but I have seen some of the worst lines on the hill at SPQ over the years.  The SR allows you to avoid that line.  I never understood why more people didn't take advantage of the lack of a lift line there.  The bigger benefit IMO though is not having to skate around the K Base Lodge.  Dropping straight from the SR into the Canyon area was a much better way to get out of Bear than to go SPQ, ski down Superstar or other trails, around the base lodge and up the Gondola or Snowdon Tripple.


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## skiadikt (Sep 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I've never seen a crowd at the SR lift either, but I have seen some of the worst lines on the hill at SPQ over the years.  The SR allows you to avoid that line.  I never understood why more people didn't take advantage of the lack of a lift line there.  The bigger benefit IMO though is not having to skate around the K Base Lodge.  Dropping straight from the SR into the Canyon area was a much better way to get out of Bear than to go SPQ, ski down Superstar or other trails, around the base lodge and up the Gondola or Snowdon Tripple.



never mind skiing just to the canyon, you can easily access the north ridge, snowdon and even ramshead from that lift. as i'm sure others have said, the area is broken w/o that lift.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but werent interest rates much higher from '85-'00 than recently???  so it was much more expensive in that period to do capital  improvements.  I think the reason there was such a binge of lift installation back then was that HSQ were new to the market and so resorts could justify investing in them because the increased capacity made the return on the investment made sense.  replacing existing lifts doesnt increase capacity so its harder to justify it financially.



SKI used its own capital or issued debentures or bonds to expand; I don't believe that they took out many loans. 



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I think with a little better signage of using it to get to the Canyon would help.
> 
> The positive affects of that lift is felt in so many ways.  It's a much different animal than Bucksaw IMO as you can still lap Bucksaw trails from the SQ.
> 
> ...






steamboat1 said:


> South Ridge only ran weekends the last several years it was in service. The Bear quad only runs Fri-Sun now. Even if they put a new lift in I don't see them changing their operating philosophy. As a weekday skier a new lift wouldn't change anything for me.



For once I actually agree with steamboat. If the SRT was so important, then why was it removed? I can't see K putting in a new lift, or even moving moving an old lift there if they're never gonna run the damn thing.

The fact that it was one of the mountains least utilized lifts, regardless of how convenient it was, means that it's low on the priority list.


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## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2015)

Important to customers and important to the resort aren't necessarily correlated.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> For once I actually agree with steamboat. If the SRT was so important, then why was it removed? I can't see K putting in a new lift, or even moving moving an old lift there if they're never gonna run the damn thing.
> 
> The fact that it was one of the mountains least utilized lifts, regardless of how convenient it was, means that it's low on the priority list.



The lift was removed because of maintenance issues.  I do believe it was a penny pinching Nyberg decision.  

Lots of important weekend lifts at various ski areas in New England are closed midweek.  

To name some:

Sunday River - Locke, Quatum Leap, Oz
Cannon - Tram
Sugarbush - Slidebrook (until recent years), Valley House - there's a multi-million dollar brand new chair that likely won't be operating midweek

No one is saying that the SRT is the Superstar Chair, but anyone who skis there on the weekends and knows the mountain well probably used it almost every single weekend to avoid crowds or travel easier back to K Peak and beyond from the Bear side. 

You maybe right that they won't spend the money to replace it, but the mountain is definitely broken without it for those who know the area well.


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Important to customers and important to the resort aren't necessarily correlated.



That is 99% false.  How do you make money?  You get people to buy your product.  How do you get people to buy your product?  You improve it.  The customer is profit.


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## Jully (Sep 10, 2015)

ss20 said:


> That is 99% false.  How do you make money?  You get people to buy your product.  How do you get people to buy your product?  You improve it.  The customer is profit.



Important to customers on this site and other advanced skiers is more like it


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 10, 2015)

Even when the SRT existed, it was rarely used. I do believe this was due to low volume rather than maintenance issues. Unless there was lots of deferred maintenance on it during the ASC heyday, I don't see how it could've been in that bad of shape seeing how infrequently it was run. 

If Powdr did have any intention of fixing the lift, I would think they would've taken parts from the devils fiddle quad (a YAN as well) since that was a truly useless lift that ran even less frequently than the SRT.

I'm curious how much it costs to move a chairlift. Gotta pour new tower footings, and airlift concrete, lift towers,  and tower heads. I don't want to know the going rate on those lifting helicopters.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2015)

Mike Solimano on here said age.  See Smellytele question

http://www.alpinezone.com/skiing/ch...enge-2012-mike-solimano-of-killington-resort/

I definitely remember other discussions suggesting it was the maintenance of the lift


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Even when the SRT existed, it was rarely used. I do believe this was due to low volume rather than maintenance issues.
> .



I'm not a mechanical engineer...and I have to think twice before I turn a wrench...but I'm gonna say it was maintenance related.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 10, 2015)

I do remember the chair taking the corner did cause a lot of shaking, can't image that's good for the haul rope or the grips....but like I was saying earlier, they could've taken grips from the DF quad. 

Also, the snowflake lift at Breck makes a 60 degree turn using sheaves and has a similar shaking feeling, and it's in great shape. Granted, that lifts only ~18 years old, but it does run on a daily basis. I'm willing to bet ASC neglected maintenance on it, given their track record.


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm not a lift maintenance expert, but I'd image that the unbalanced weight on one side of each tower might've caused footing or alignment issues over time.  Not to mention the fact that the lift was painted twice(?) in its lifetime and had its drive unit above 4000'.  Not a good combination.  First Yan lift in the East.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 10, 2015)

ss20 said:


> had its drive unit above 4000'.  Not a good combination.



What's the elevation of the drive unit have to do with anything? Top drives are more efficient too since they are directly pulling the weighted side.


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> What's the elevation of the drive unit have to do with anything? Top drives are more efficient too since they are directly pulling the weighted side.



Harsh and variable environment.  Equipment certainly wasn't as tight then as it is now.  Just look at what happened to the old peak lodge being up there - it was literally crumbling away.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> I'm curious how much it costs to move a chairlift. Gotta pour new tower footings, and airlift concrete, lift towers,  and tower heads. I don't want to know the going rate on those lifting helicopters.


The straight line downhill towers on the old lift are still in place. Would need new tower heads but that's about it. They were left there on purpose as the towers on the old uphill side were removed. If they were to put in a new lift the old straight downhill side is what they would use. Don't think they'd plan a new triangle lift.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> For once I actually agree with steamboat.


*SHOCKING!!!*:blink::blink::blink:


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## steamboat1 (Sep 11, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The South Ridge had some nice trails with no crowd even on most busy days.  Now, to ski the South Ridge, you've got to take two or three lifts.  I sure hope they put something back there, but I'm not holding my breath...!


2 SPE & Superstar or K-1. Not really a big deal. The worst part is the run out back down to SPE. If you want Jug or Breakaway then you need K-1. Pipe Dream is accessible from Superstar.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Important to customers and important to the resort aren't necessarily correlated.
> 
> 
> ss20 said:
> ...



Don't kid yourself. Killington would love to see every single lift, including the defunct SRT with it's maze full everyday of the week. Customers want to be able to ski right onto the lift. Complete opposites.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> The straight line downhill towers on the old lift are still in place. Would need new tower heads but that's about it. They were left there on purpose as the towers on the old uphill side were removed. If they were to put in a new lift the old straight downhill side is what they would use. Don't think they'd plan a new triangle lift.



IDK, the concrete footings have a shelflife as well. The reason the old castlerock double was replaced was because the footings grew weak. That would be a major mistake of management to rebuild the lift with old footings, only to have to pour new ones 5 or so years later.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> IDK, the concrete footings have a shelflife as well. The reason the old castlerock double was replaced was because the footings grew weak. That would be a major mistake of management to rebuild the lift with old footings, only to have to pour new ones 5 or so years later.


Their newest lift, Skye Peak Express, used the same towers & footings from the old Yan Skye Peak lift. South Ridge was also a Yan. Just saying.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Their newest lift, Skye Peak Express, used the same towers & footings from the old Yan Skye Peak lift. South Ridge was also a Yan. Just saying.



Skye Peak Quad was installed in 1984. SRT in 1977. Original Castlerock double was installed in 1959 and removed in 2001 due to weak footings. Who knows, maybe I'm totally wrong and the footings could be good for another 20 years, but that seems like a gamble to me.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 11, 2015)

Since the down hill towers never carried load, that may extend the life of the footings.  You are correct though that concrete has a shelf life and it is a bit of a gamble to install a new lift on old towers/footings.  I remember reading somewhere that YAN towers and footings were seriously overbuilt, unlike most of their other components.


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## mister moose (Sep 11, 2015)

Since concrete is a manufactured product, its lifetime varies with the quality of manufacture, placement and curing.  The Hoover Dam, a concrete structure, was built in 1931.  I would guess you survey the footings and determine the integrity.  Size of the old footings would also determine load bearing capability or not for a larger load.


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## WoodCore (Sep 11, 2015)

Another issue with Yan towers is the fact that they were poured directly into the footings not bolted own. Additionally in some cases, the tower masts were directly welded to the tower pole as well so modifications to newer equipment is difficult and time consuming. In most cases it's just as easy to start from scratch.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

Cold, snow, and freeze/thaw is the #1 enemy of concrete. Can't imagine the Hoover dam faces too much of that.



jimmywilson69 said:


> *Since the down hill towers never carried load, that may extend the life of the footings. * You are correct though that concrete has a shelf life and it is a bit of a gamble to install a new lift on old towers/footings.  *I remember reading somewhere that YAN towers and footings were seriously overbuilt, unlike most of their other components.*



I didn't even think of that, good points. Not sure if they can get the concrete inspected. You're right IRT the footings being overbuilt, case and point, bear mtn used to be a triple.


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## Newpylong (Sep 11, 2015)

ss20 said:


> That is 99% false.  How do you make money?  You get people to buy your product.  How do you get people to buy your product?  You improve it.  The customer is profit.



Not that you need it, but I can tell you from first hand experience it is not false at all.

Mountains try their best to serve the most amount of customers based on their priorities and revenue stream. Even still, oftentimes there is a good portion of the clientele unhappy with decisions that have been made.

The # of examples are endless, the topic of this discussion being one.


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## skiur (Sep 11, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> 2 SPE & Superstar or K-1. Not really a big deal. The worst part is the run out back down to SPE. If you want Jug or Breakaway then you need K-1. Pipe Dream is accessible from Superstar.



That certainly is a big deal on the weekend.  On a mid winter weekend the line for the SPE can easily be 20+ min.  Then to do a second lap you have a 20 min wait at the SPE, then another 20min wait at K1, so after almost an hour you ca do a second lap at South ridge.  The mountain is broken without the SRT, and it is the only lift that needs to be replaced.  All the others still work.


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## mister moose (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Cold, snow, and freeze/thaw is the #1 enemy of concrete. Can't imagine the Hoover dam faces too much of that.



Poor curing, too much vibration, too much water added to aid placement, and more, are all potentially worse and can cause problems in a very short time frame.  

_With the addition of an air entrainment admixture, concrete is highly resistant to freezing and thawing. During freezing, the water displaced by ice formation in the paste is accommodated so that it is not disruptive; the microscopic air bubbles in the paste provide chambers for the water to enter and thus relieve the hydraullic pressure generated. Concrete with a low water-cementitious ratio (0.40 or lower) is more durable than concrete with a high water-cementitious ratio (0.50 or higher). 

_Concrete, because ​it is mixed on site, modified on site, sometimes delayed on site, poured on site, cured on site, and encouters less than favorable temperatures on site, is *not* a uniform product.  Comparing footings from one old lift to another is nearly meaningless.  If footings were poured by someone with an eye towards long term durability they will last far longer than not.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

mister moose said:


> Poor curing, too much vibration, too much water added to aid placement, and more, are all potentially worse and can cause problems in a very short time frame.
> 
> _With the addition of an air entrainment admixture, concrete is highly resistant to freezing and thawing. During freezing, the water displaced by ice formation in the paste is accommodated so that it is not disruptive; the microscopic air bubbles in the paste provide chambers for the water to enter and thus relieve the hydraullic pressure generated. Concrete with a low water-cementitious ratio (0.40 or lower) is more durable than concrete with a high water-cementitious ratio (0.50 or higher).
> 
> _Concrete, because ​it is mixed on site, modified on site, sometimes delayed on site, poured on site, cured on site, and encouters less than favorable temperatures on site, is *not* a uniform product.  Comparing footings from one old lift to another is nearly meaningless.  If footings were poured by someone with an eye towards long term durability they will last far longer than not.



Yea, that's all stuff that has to be taken into consideration. I sure hope that when those footings were initially poured, the workers knew what the hell they were doing

After its poured, it faces a much harder environment than a chairlift used as a people mover in a warm area, all I am saying


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

This is kind of a moot point though. Let's say the footings are in great shape and have at least 20 years left on them, this doesn't change the fact that K has explicitly stated replacing the SRT is low on there list of priorities.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> this doesn't change the fact that K has explicitly stated replacing the SRT is low on there list of priorities.



Huh?

Did you not read the AZ challenge I linked?

The direct words of the GM were 

" We totally agree that this is a critical piece of the lift flow out of Bear and hope to replace it as soon as possible in the near future."


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## Highway Star (Sep 11, 2015)

Killington provided some sort of excuse about the SRT having a tensioning system that didn't meet code, and they didn't want to replace it because the lift ran so infrequntly, served so few people, was old, and the terrainwas served by other lifts.  Now, do you believe they actually couldn't meet code with the lift, or that Nyborg just yanked it to save some overhead costs?  I wouldn't put it past him.

The way things have been going, I wouldn't expect any lift replacements, anytime, ever.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Huh?
> 
> Did you not read the AZ challenge I linked?
> 
> ...



Read the whole thing.

I'll believe it when I see it.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 11, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Killington provided some sort of excuse about the SRT having a tensioning system that didn't meet code, and they didn't want to replace it because the lift ran so infrequntly, served so few people, was old, and the terrainwas served by other lifts.



Most new lifts have a hydraulic tensioning system now, but older lifts such as that had a concrete type counterweight. 

Those big ass concrete blocks you see hanging in the air, connected to the back of the lift provide the tensioning. I want to know what aspect of that didn't meet code seeing are there are still plenty of older lifts in the state that use this type of counter weight


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## deadheadskier (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Read the whole thing.
> 
> I'll believe it when I see it.



Your interpretation of the scenario is not the point.  You maybe right.

However, Killington did not "explicitly state" that SRT was a low priority as you claimed.

That's all I'm saying.


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## Highway Star (Sep 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Your interpretation of the scenario is not the point.  You maybe right.
> 
> However, Killington did not "explicitly state" that SRT was a low priority as you claimed.
> 
> That's all I'm saying.



Every thing is a low priority for POWDR unless it is about to fall apart (or already has) in a heap while hurting someone in the process, or that it has an ROI of less than two years (perferably one).  Nothing so abstract as actually updating lifts and lodges or expanding terrain will ever be done.  

They simply keep proclaiming something is a year or two out, or they are focused on another project, or they are getting sued, or whatever.  Excuse after excuse, delay after delay.  They finished the peak lodge in 2013 (after a one year delay, and downsizing it), and the PCMR lawsuit was over in 2014.  What did they do this year?  Put in a stupid glorified alpine slide.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Every thing is a low priority for POWDR unless it is about to fall apart (or already has) in a heap while hurting someone in the process, or that it has an ROI of less than two years (perferably one).  Nothing so abstract as actually updating lifts and lodges or expanding terrain will ever be done.
> 
> They simply keep proclaiming something is a year or two out, or they are focused on another project, or they are getting sued, or whatever.  Excuse after excuse, delay after delay.  They finished the peak lodge in 2013 (after a one year delay, and downsizing it), and the PCMR lawsuit was over in 2014.  What did they do this year?  Put in a stupid glorified alpine slide.



And yet you continue to ski there!  +1 for POWDR.  

And who has been hurt at K on something broken or defective?


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## skiadikt (Sep 11, 2015)

regarding the srt, had a conversation w/ jeff temple about it's removal and plans 4 summers ago. the removal at that time had to do with having the equipment on the peak due to the peak restaurant demolition that could be used in the removal of the srt. since the equipment was there and the lift wasn't being fully utilized he felt he would take advantage of the opportunity of removing it then rather than wait for the snowdon lift replacement project to which the srt was tied. said would save time on the back end of the project and obviously costs. he did mention that there was the possibility of putting another intermediate trail up there.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 11, 2015)

I think a lot has to do with the planned village. No sense putting in a new lift to replace the Snowdon quad if it will only need to be reconfigured sometime in the future when/if the village is built. Since they plan to use the Snowdon quad to replace South Ridge nothing happens until Snowdon quad is replaced. No sense rebuilding Snowshed or Ramshead lodges since I believe they will be demolished when/if the village is built. As far as I know SP Land submitted their ACT 250 plan for the village a couple of years ago. The local community boards have been holding up it's approval is my understanding. I could be wrong since I'm not directly involved.


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## Highway Star (Sep 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And yet you continue to ski there!  +1 for POWDR.



I like the mountain and the scene.  But will continue to complain bitterly about the management.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 11, 2015)

skiadikt said:


> regarding the srt, had a conversation w/ jeff temple about it's removal and plans 4 summers ago. the removal at that time had to do with having the equipment on the peak due to the peak restaurant demolition that could be used in the removal of the srt. since the equipment was there and the lift wasn't being fully utilized he felt he would take advantage of the opportunity of removing it then rather than wait for the snowdon lift replacement project to which the srt was tied. said would save time on the back end of the project and obviously costs. he did mention that there was the possibility of putting another intermediate trail up there.



This answers a comment I was about to make reguarding many posts saying removing the srt was to save money.Wouldnt doing nothing save more?If the lift was sold and as stated above the equipment was there to remove it then it made a lot of sense to do it then.


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## skiur (Sep 11, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> This answers a comment I was about to make reguarding many posts saying removing the srt was to save money.Wouldnt doing nothing save more?If the lift was sold and as stated above the equipment was there to remove it then it made a lot of sense to do it then.



The lift was not sold, it was scrapped, only thing sold were some chairs for people to put in there back yard


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## steamboat1 (Sep 11, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I like the mountain and the scene.  But will continue to complain bitterly about the management.


Management did a great job this year deciding to invest in summer activities which Killington lacked. I've read that the lines for some of these summer attractions rivals the lines for SPE & K-1 on busy winter weekends. I hope management continues to make sound financial decisions for the long term sustainabilty of the resort.


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## bigbog (Sep 11, 2015)

ss20 said:


> That is 99% false.  How do you make money?  You get people to buy your product.  How do you get people to buy your product?  You improve it.  The customer is profit.



Do you think there are that many people who are that picky?  Maybe so, but I think quite a lot of skiers flock to where the snow piles up....  The product is the access to the top...and don't f**k with what lies down the fall-line.   I will not disagree that maybe I've skied too many winters with a family of just the three of us..and my family never skied, but I don't feel cheated by any shortcoming in "luxury".   But that's what is nice about life...chocolate & vanilla.

Highway...sounds like our feelings towards management are mutual...lol.


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## skiadikt (Sep 11, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> And yet you continue to ski there!  +1 for POWDR.
> 
> And who has been hurt at K on *something broken or defective*?



yeah think hs' infrastructure has already collapsed. much ado about nothing ...

of all the lifts that run daily at killington (the "real" infrastructure) - only the north ridge (glades) triple would be considered very old (1972). excepting the skye peak quad 2008, the 9 other lifts (10 if you count the skyeship as 2) that comprise the "real" infrastructure, were either built or rebuilt between 1992 & 1998. certainly middle-aged but nowhere near the hysterical impending collapse predicted by hs, unless his favorite lifts are the snowshed doubles, there's no real basis for his little snit.


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## doublediamond (Sep 11, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Most new lifts have a hydraulic tensioning system now, but older lifts such as that had a concrete type counterweight.
> 
> Those big ass concrete blocks you see hanging in the air, connected to the back of the lift provide the tensioning. I want to know what aspect of that didn't meet code seeing are there are still plenty of older lifts in the state that use this type of counter weight



The only issue with the counterweight-type tensioning systems comes about due to the stretching of the haul rope over time.  Eventually, the haul rope is too stretched out that there is either insufficient room below the counterweight to code or the counterweight actually rests on the ground with no load on the lift.

How do you solve this? Just like for any modern tensioning system:  you cut, shorten, and re-splice your haul rope.  Tenney just took out well over 12-feet on their 3125-foot long triple.  They took out a bunch (either they didn't say or I can't find it) and re-spliced, but it still was too much sag so they took out an additional 12 feet this past week.

Other way to solve this if your counterweight hits the ground but you still have travel on the bullwheel is to dig a hole under the counterweight.

The excuse was pure BS.  Remember, this was the penney-pinching all-money-flows-to-Utah era.  And Nyberg after being transferred away from Killington has finally been canned by Powdr.


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## Highway Star (Sep 12, 2015)

I'm looking for the exact quote.



> *Mike Solimano: *We  were  disappointed as well when South Ridge needed to be taken out due  to age and type of technology. Although many of the older lifts can be  refurbished over time it was not possible with South Ridge Triple.


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## Highway Star (Sep 12, 2015)

Here's where they took it out, with no advance notice.......

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32424


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## marcski (Sep 12, 2015)

I heard from a reliable K-mart business owner that Powdr sent Nyberg to "clean house".  He got rid of the "extra weight" and did precisely what upper mgt wanted him to do. Hence, he was actually promoted in 2012 by Powdr who then put Solimono in place to bring back the old Beast in a more profitable way.  Nyberg just left Powdr's employ about 2 mos ago.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 14, 2015)

Has there been any "talk" of the K-Pico interconnect still happening?


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## cdskier (Sep 14, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Has there been any "talk" of the K-Pico interconnect still happening?



From the Killington-Pico Interconnect page on the NewEnglandSkiHistory site:



> In February of 2014, Killington President Mike Solimano told Ski magazine that the Killington-Pico interconnect was still a future possibility.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 14, 2015)

Yeah, other than that?


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 15, 2015)

Here you go highway star, I found killingtons master development plan on the Internet, happy?


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## joshua segal (Sep 15, 2015)

That plan must be from an archive, complete with the abandoned Sunrise Area, but before the expansion plan into Parker's Gore!  What's the area just SE of the Snowshed Area?


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## Newpylong (Sep 15, 2015)

Obviously not official. Someone built that fantasy map on Kzone in the early 2000s using an old map after Lower Sunrise was abandoned, I remember when it came out. Crazy.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 15, 2015)

Lower Sunrise was not "abandoned."  A land swap occurred to allow for the Pico connection to take place.


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## Newpylong (Sep 15, 2015)

We can argue semantics all day. It was abandoned for lift served skiing as part of the Killington Resort.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> That plan must be from an archive, complete with the abandoned Sunrise Area, but before the expansion plan into Parker's Gore!  What's the area just SE of the Snowshed Area?



Just speculation, but maybe lift serviced slopeside real estate?  If there's one area Killington is sorely lacking as a resort compared to many of their competitors, it's ski in, ski out lodging.   I know the village is meant to address that.


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## joshua segal (Sep 15, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Lower Sunrise was not "abandoned."  A land swap occurred to allow for the Pico connection to take place.


Negative.  They ceded expansion into Parker's Gore in the land swap.  Sunrise WAS abandoned.  Once the expansion south and east was not going to happen, Sunrise became a white elephant.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 15, 2015)

SUNRISE VILLAGE TRIPLE (YAN) - Originally installed as the Northeast Passage Triple chair in 1982, this lift traveled 12 minutes
from the Sunrise Base Lodge on Rt 100 to the current terminus on Sunrise Mountain. The lift was shortened in 2001, cut off at the 
mid-station at the Sunrise Village. In the late 90's the lift rarely ran and slopeside condo owners were upset as they had no 
ski in ski out access to the resort. The lift was shortened as part of a land swap giving Killington the acreage needed for the
yet to be built "Killington-Pico interconnect." Lost were some really nice expert trails as the lower 2/3 of the lift and Hill
were permanently closed.


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## Highway Star (Sep 15, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Lower Sunrise was not "abandoned."  A land swap occurred to allow for the Pico connection to take place.



No, the land swap was between parkers gore and killington basin developable lands.  Neither the interconnect or sunrise were involved.  They could reopen sunrise if they wanted to, just would need an ACT250 permit to install a lift.


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## Highway Star (Sep 15, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> SUNRISE VILLAGE TRIPLE (YAN) - Originally installed as the Northeast Passage Triple chair in 1982, this lift traveled 12 minutes
> from the Sunrise Base Lodge on Rt 100 to the current terminus on Sunrise Mountain. The lift was shortened in 2001, cut off at the
> mid-station at the Sunrise Village. In the late 90's the lift rarely ran and slopeside condo owners were upset as they had no
> ski in ski out access to the resort. The lift was shortened as part of a land swap giving Killington the acreage needed for the
> ...



Sorry, this is often repeated but it is not accurate information.

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/Vermont/killington/parkersgore.php
http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/Vermont/killington/sunrise.php

It's really too bad about Parker's Gore, had they expanded over there, Killington would be nearly twice as big as it is now.  Add on the Pico interconnect, and they would be in the real skiable 2500+ acres range, and over 7 miles across.  I think some time in the 80's when they went to build the first lift over there, they were limited to having to close it on April 1st, thus they kept pushing that issue and didin't succeed.  Juggernaut and Solitude trails are toeholds into the area and would have become access trails if it was developed.

One of my favorite random ideas is to run a diesel powered drag lift up the north side of Shrewsbury peak, that would give you access to 500+ acres of tree skiing on the east side of the peak, and you would traverse out to the current bottom of sunrise.  Given the popularity of Sugarloaf's expansion, and Vails Poma in the back bowls, it's not entirely unrealistic.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 15, 2015)

Ah well, whatever.  Found that info just trying to figure out why the Sunrise chair was shortened.  Haven't really bothered with K since then.  Sunrise lift from Rt. 100 was nice because you could totally avoid the usual crowds.


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 15, 2015)

Sunrise would be (would have been) WAY more appealing with a high speed lift.  I think I parked there once, and that lift was a huge waste of time...


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Sep 15, 2015)

Sun Dog was actually an awesome trail, as were the steeps off Hawk's Nest. The lift sucked for sure though.

Another boneheaded and short sighted ASC move to remove it.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2015)

The lift sucked, but if coming from the South there was some benefits to not driving to Bear or Skyeship.   

If you wanted a nice lodge to get ready in, Sunrise offered a better option than heading to Bear or using the Skyeship.  It was easy to get Rock Star parking right next to the lodge and be able to find plentiful seats inside.   As long as you didn't want to go back to the lodge during the day, it worked really well.   IMO the convenience compared to the other locations more than made up for the long lift ride.  

Coming from Ludlow, our family parked at Sunrise 90% of the time as a kid.  Only time we didn't was if it wasn't open.  Another factor was we lived only ten miles down the road.  If my folks were done for the day, they'd peace out and I'd ski until the end of the day and call them on a pay phone to come pick me up.  

This all said, I recognize my family's situation represents the minority and it didn't make much sense to keep the lift and base lodge operating.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 15, 2015)

Sunrise was also good when coming from the north.  When ASC still owned SB & K, and lift tickets were good at both I liked to stop by Sunrise for a few runs on my drive home from SB.  Sure the lift sucked, but parking was just a few steps away.


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## Smellytele (Sep 15, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Sun Dog was actually an awesome trail, as were the steeps off Hawk's Nest. The lift sucked for sure though.
> 
> Another boneheaded and short sighted ASC move to remove it.


Was Sun Dog the trail that had streams running across it that you had to jump over? If so I hated that trail. It was flat and was just a PIA. Actually think that was the Sunrise trail I am talking about


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## Rogman (Sep 15, 2015)

James Niehaus, the trail map guy, did a version for Killington that had all of Northeast Passage, the Interconnect, and Pico. Obviously K wouldn't have had that made if they'd ceded the rights. What Les Otten gave up was developing in Parker's Gore (in particular he wanted the water), and what he got in return was the interconnect and the water from Woodward Reservoir. Obviously, it was a complicated deal, involving multiple parties; everyone got something, even the bears.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 15, 2015)

It takes all of 2 minutes to drive from where the base of Sunrise was to the base of Skyeship, if that.


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## Highway Star (Sep 15, 2015)

Rogman said:


> James Niehaus, the trail map guy, did a version for Killington that had all of Northeast Passage, the Interconnect, and Pico.



I have a hard copy of this somewhere.


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## Domeskier (Sep 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> It takes all of 2 minutes to drive from where the base of Sunrise was to the base of Skyeship, if that.



Wasn't the Sunrise chair free, though?  I know a guy who lapped it all day once because he didn't want to buy a lift ticket.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> It takes all of 2 minutes to drive from where the base of Sunrise was to the base of Skyeship, if that.



It does, but the facilities for families and parking were FAR better at Sunrise.  It was also nice having the Back Behind Saloon to go to at the end of the day, get skis tuned up at First Stop etc.   I have heard BBS is no longer a great place to go like it was 20 years ago.   

Like I said though, I see why they abandoned that area; money loser.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 15, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> Wasn't the Sunrise chair free, though?  I know a guy who lapped it all day once because he didn't want to buy a lift ticket.


Wasn't free, they just never paid attention.


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## Domeskier (Sep 15, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Wasn't free, they just never paid attention.



Ah.  I might have to have a talk with him about a little thing call "theft of services." :-D


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## joshua segal (Sep 15, 2015)

If I remember right, Sunrise was 9500' long and the longest fixed grip chair, at least in the east. It was not a fun lift to ride!


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 15, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> If I remember right, Sunrise was 9500' long and the longest fixed grip chair, at least in the east. It was not a fun lift to ride!



I've heard it was a 17 minute ride. I think I only rode it twice but I remember it being long. Last I saw, all the towers were still in place.

Still a shorter ride than the old orange Gondi though! (Albeit with a lot less vert)


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## joshua segal (Sep 15, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> I've heard it was a 17 minute ride. I think I only rode it twice but I remember it being long. Last I saw, all the towers were still in place.
> 
> Still a shorter ride than the old orange Gondi though! (Albeit with a lot less vert)



True, but you weren't exposed to the elements in the Orange Gondola!  I know the towers were still standing as of a couple of years ago.  But I pass the Sunrise base area on Rte. 100 when I go to Killington and when I looked up the lift line this spring, I thought the towers were gone.  Perhaps someone could confirm that?


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## skiadikt (Sep 15, 2015)

certainly had fun on sunrise and caught a few pow days but it was a bit of a pain that got old quick. if i remember you could only access those steeper runs by getting off at the mid-station and they were short. to get there from from the main mtn you had to waste a run and ski one of the long very flat runs to get to the bottom and then take the lift back up to the mid-station. leaving you had that 17 min lift to get back to bear. it was ok but haven't missed it.


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## Newpylong (Sep 15, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Was Sun Dog the trail that had streams running across it that you had to jump over? If so I hated that trail. It was flat and was just a PIA. Actually think that was the Sunrise trail I am talking about



Yep that was the Sunrise trail that hooked around the shoulder of the hill below the condos. Sun Dog went on the opposite side of the hill and was intermediate. The bottom (Noreaster) had decent pitch and a lot of character.

Northeast Passage chair was 17 minutes confirmed by an old trail map.

When I drove by a few weeks ago I couldn't see the one tower you could still see from the road at the crest of the hill but my guess is it is just grown in vs removed.


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## Quietman (Sep 15, 2015)

I skied Sunrise back in the day and it wasn't free but there was a cheaper Sunrise only ticket which my father took advantage of.  Getting off at the mid-station provided a vert of about 1,100 and there were some nicely pitched cruizers, and we had fun. It's been at least 25 years since I've been to K, and I haven't missed it. Don't dislike it, just rather go to Canon or Wildcat if I want something bigger than the Crotch.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 15, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> It does, but the facilities for families and parking were FAR better at Sunrise.


Not true anymore, especially weekdays, lodge is larger now. Pull right up to the stairs a little before 10am, I mean front row, boot up in the lodge, then hop on the gondi. Lucky to see a 1/2 dozen people in the lodge including employees. Do it all the time on the mornings of my drive up from NYC. Weekends are probably different.

Same deal at Bear, just a little longer drive up the road.

Love weekdays at K.

Just wish they'd run the Canyon chair everyday instead of just Mon, Wed, Fri. They do run Needles & Bear on Fri. but it's no big deal having them not running during the week. Terrain is easily accessible with no lines for the other lifts. Very rarely see a line for K-1 either, usually just walk on with maybe a cabin or two wait. Only use it to access the Peak Lodge for lunch usually. I'm not a fan of boxes, even on cold days.

Personally I don't see why they need more uphill capacity.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> True, but you weren't exposed to the elements in the Orange Gondola!  I know the towers were still standing as of a couple of years ago.  But I pass the Sunrise base area on Rte. 100 when I go to Killington and when I looked up the lift line this spring, I thought the towers were gone.  Perhaps someone could confirm that?



Still there last time I looked, I doubt they'll take them down anytime before the DevilsFiddle ones come down.


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## skiur (Sep 16, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not true anymore, especially weekdays, lodge is larger now. Pull right up to the stairs a little before 10am, I mean front row, boot up in the lodge, then hop on the gondi. Lucky to see a 1/2 dozen people in the lodge including employees. Do it all the time on the mornings of my drive up from NYC. Weekends are probably different.
> 
> Same deal at Bear, just a little longer drive up the road.
> 
> ...



Name me one east coast ski resort that does need more uphill capacity midweek!


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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2015)

Here is a picture of Northeast Passage. The liftline trail is Noreaster and was the main run past Sun Dog and at the very top the Hawk's Nest midtation where the steeper runs started.

Regarding Skyeship vs Sunrise after they replaced the old gondy and the lodge was rebuilt it was like night and day better than it used to be: http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums...22266&start=90 (scroll down).

I live east of there so I always use Skyeship and I prefer it vs any other base area. I think Great Eastern is a pretty cool run to end the day with.

For me it's mostly nostalgia and the fact that the Big K has been shrinking from when I began skiing there in the late 80s. After about a 4 year hiattus from Killington I was back there in the early 2000s and did a serious WTF when I saw the chair was gone...


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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not true anymore, especially weekdays, lodge is larger now. Pull right up to the stairs a little before 10am, I mean front row, boot up in the lodge, then hop on the gondi. Lucky to see a 1/2 dozen people in the lodge including employees. Do it all the time on the mornings of my drive up from NYC. Weekends are probably different.



Name a lodge at any resort that is NOT like that weekdays... I'm sure most people would love to ski mid-week all the time (myself included), but it just isn't an option for most people.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 16, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Name a lodge at any resort that is NOT like that weekdays...



Wachusett


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 16, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Here is a picture of Northeast Passage. The liftline trail is Noreaster and was the main run past Sun Dog and at the very top the Hawk's Nest midtation where the steeper runs started.
> 
> Regarding Skyeship vs Sunrise after they replaced the old gondy and the lodge was rebuilt it was like night and day better than it used to be: http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums...22266&start=90 (scroll down).
> 
> ...



I'd like to see those other sunrise pics if you have them on your computer


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> I'd like to see those other sunrise pics if you have them on your computer



I've got a few saved someone posted years ago.. here's a couple. You can do a search on KZone to find the rest...


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## steamboat1 (Sep 16, 2015)

cdskier said:


> Name a lodge at any resort that is NOT like that weekdays...


Killington, Snowshed, Ramshead.


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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2015)




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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2015)




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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2015)




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## steamboat1 (Sep 16, 2015)

Nice pictures Newpylong. Never really rode or skied Northeast Passage to much myself. A few times at best. I do still ride the upper section (Sunrise chair) because I sometimes go down to the Sunrise Cafe for lunch & you have to ride the lift to get back to Bear. Good spot for lunch by the way. The view of Killington Peak from that chair on a clear day is beautiful.


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## Puck it (Sep 16, 2015)

Looked like some decent terrain, better than GE down to Skyeship Base. Never skied it.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2015)

The remains of the old Hawks Nest mid-station


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## Highway Star (Sep 16, 2015)

You know, Killington / SP Land still owns 250+ acres at Sunrise under the holding company Cherry Knoll associates.  I wonder how much of that is resort, and how much is developable land.  There's nothing stopping them from building real estate over there at some point and re-installing an access lift.  Okemo has done it several times.


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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2015)

Was going to ask if they still owned the land including the terrain and old lodge/parking lot. Leasing it all to the Snow Toursl co?

A friend of mine who owned there said when they were planning to get rid of the lift the condo association threw a fit. Killington wasn't even going to shorten it as we have today.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 16, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Was going to ask if they still owned the land including the terrain and old lodge/parking lot. Leasing it all to the Snow Toursl co?
> 
> A friend of mine who owned there said when they were planning to get rid of the lift the condo association threw a fit. Killington wasn't even going to shorten it as we have today.


It's my understanding that the condo association owns & maintains the Sunrise lift. At least that's what the guy who loads the lift told me. He seemed to have been there awhile & knowledgeable of the arrangement.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 17, 2015)

Great pics, thank you for posting them


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## Newpylong (Sep 17, 2015)

Glad people enjoyed them - real credit goes to who physically took them. I just downloaded them years ago because I wanted something to match the memories I had. 

I know there is better terrain to be had but when you grow up somewhere and it changes like that it can be pretty sad.


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## Highway Star (Sep 17, 2015)

Looking over at sunrise from the bear acces road, it seems like there would be good tree skiing on the north side of sunrise above the abandoned "sunrise trail".  If there was enough snow.


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## drjeff (Sep 17, 2015)

Sunrise, especially from the mid station on down to the route 100 base, was a solid pod of terrain for sure.  The lift ride when you decided to head back out of Sunrise and "rejoin" the rest of what K has to offer left lots to be desired for sure!

I do miss it though, and have fond memories whenever I drive by the old base lodge at the 100/4 junction and look up at what once was and how is slowly becoming reclaimed by nature wherever the snowmobile operation there now hasn't still worked some of the terrain


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 18, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Looking over at sunrise from the bear acces road, it seems like there would be good tree skiing on the north side of sunrise above the abandoned "sunrise trail".  If there was enough snow.



Dude WTF??? Stop sharing my spots!!


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## Highway Star (Sep 19, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Dude WTF??? Stop sharing my spots!!



Nobody has skied those trees since they took out that lift.


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## moresnow (Sep 19, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Nobody has skied those trees since they took out that lift.



Nobody?


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## Rogman (Sep 21, 2015)

Killington still owns the Sunrise lift and still owns the base lodge down on Rte. 100; it is leased to a snow mobiling company, and they use the NEP trails. When Killington redid the Skye Peak area, they reused some of the snow making pipe from NEP, so they obviously still have the rights to that area. I asked Steve Selbo a few years back about the 200 acres on Cherry Knoll (in the Sunrise area) that SP Land owns. He said there were no plans to develop it. Given the financial impossibility of making the village work, seems like a mistake.


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## Highway Star (Sep 21, 2015)

Rogman said:


> Killington still owns the Sunrise lift and still owns the base lodge down on Rte. 100; it is leased to a snow mobiling company, and they use the NEP trails. When Killington redid the Skye Peak area, they reused some of the snow making pipe from NEP, so they obviously still have the rights to that area. I asked Steve Selbo a few years back about the 200 acres on Cherry Knoll (in the Sunrise area) that SP Land owns. He said there were no plans to develop it. Given the financial impossibility of making the village work, seems like a mistake.



Well, if it was at Okemo, it would have a lift and a bunch of houses/condos on it.


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## Highway Star (Oct 16, 2015)

Well, their lifts and their management might be pretty questionable, but their 
snowmaking is pretty good. 

*Looks like they'll be open this weekend on the 1972 vintage North Ridge Triple Chairlift. 43 years old and still a critical lift!*


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## benski (Oct 16, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well, their lifts and their management might be pretty questionable, but their
> snowmaking is pretty good.
> 
> *Looks like they'll be open this weekend on the 1972 vintage North Ridge Triple Chairlift. 43 years old and still a critical lift!*



The valley house double never broke down and was in its over 50.


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## Talisman (Oct 17, 2015)

benski said:


> The valley house double never broke down and was in its over 50.



Not entirely true.  I remember a partial haul rope collapse taking the VH lift off line for weeks.  Maybe the haul rope doesn't count as a break down for some.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 17, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well, their lifts and their management might be pretty questionable, but their
> snowmaking is pretty good.
> 
> *Looks like they'll be open this weekend on the 1972 vintage North Ridge Triple Chairlift. 43 years old and still a critical lift!*



Looks like they do an OK job of lift maintenance too.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 17, 2015)

Last year NR was down for a few days mid season. Something broke at the top terminal, something to do with the bull wheel since that's where I saw them working. Then they had the accident two years ago where a chair got hung up in the top terminal when someone unloaded. Think it was down for a few days after that also.


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## benski (Oct 17, 2015)

Talisman said:


> Not entirely true.  I remember a partial haul rope collapse taking the VH lift off line for weeks.  Maybe the haul rope doesn't count as a break down for some.



I have no recollection of this incident. How long ago was it. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Talisman (Oct 17, 2015)

benski said:


> I have no recollection of this incident. How long ago was it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Maybe 5 or  6 years ago  The haul rope was replaced the following summer and planning for replacement started.


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## Tin (Nov 24, 2015)

Bump.

K1 down until lunch time today and no mention of it on their site. Nice way to make people wait for hours.

And pipe issues a few days ago that cost them T2B sooner. HS, you are clearly a prophet.


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## ScottySkis (Nov 24, 2015)

Tin said:


> Bump.
> 
> K1 down until lunch time today and no mention of it on their site. Nice way to make people wait for hours.
> 
> And pipe issues a few days ago that cost them T2B sooner. HS, you are clearly a prophet.



I have a friend their said it was because of electronic problems.


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## yeggous (Nov 24, 2015)

There is nothing new here. Once again Killington is behind the ball in November. While they are clearly trying, there are being outclassed by a number of areas that are open top-to-bottom tomorrow.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2015)

They could be top to bottom By t-day


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## joshua segal (Nov 24, 2015)

With an area the size of Killington, what constitutes T2B?  If T2B is top of Killington to the bottom of the gondola, Killington will never be competitive.  I'm quite happy with Killington's commitment to provide *daily skiing* from the time they open T2B on a full lift pod.  The open runs in the North Ridge are full-width - not WRODs.


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## yeggous (Nov 24, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> With an area the size of Killington, what constitutes T2B?  If T2B is top of Killington to the bottom of the gondola, Killington will never be competitive.  I'm quite happy with Killington's commitment to provide *daily skiing* from the time they open T2B on a full lift pod.  The open runs in the North Ridge are full-width - not WRODs.



They're going to the bottom tomorrow.

I'm not talking about at the way down to the Skyeship base lodge. Yes, we are talking about from the top down to the K1 base lodge. That is only 1642' vertical, and a very reasonable amount compared to what some others need to cover. Loon, Stowe, and Wildcat, for example, are offering over 2000' vertical tomorrow. Sunday River offers 1460' on Locke Mountain alone. Sunapee is offering 1400'.

K's reasons for not competing have mostly to do with a desire to reinforce more trails up top, and a relatively small number of guns compared to much of their competition. K is running 170 guns at last count, and SR is over 300. Sugarloaf is running 165, and that's all I can find for counts.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 24, 2015)

yeggous said:


> They're going to the bottom tomorrow.
> 
> I'm not talking about at the way down to the Skyeship base lodge. Yes, we are talking about from the top down to the K1 base lodge. That is only 1642' vertical, and a very reasonable amount compared to what some others need to cover. Loon, Stowe, and Wildcat, for example, are offering over 2000' vertical tomorrow. Sunday River offers 1460' on Locke Mountain alone. Sunapee is offering 1400'.
> 
> K's reasons for not competing have mostly to do with a desire to reinforce more trails up top, and a relatively small number of guns compared to much of their competition. K is running 170 guns at last count, and SR is over 300. Sugarloaf is running 165, and that's all I can find for counts.



They obviously don't care about being first ttb. If they did I'm sure they could be one of the first to get it done. 
What they do care about is the longest ski season in the east and they have that. Seriously, who cares anyway about any of it. I'm just glad most of them push to open as much and as early as they can.


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## JimG. (Nov 24, 2015)

Tin said:


> Bump.
> 
> K1 down until lunch time today and no mention of it on their site. Nice way to make people wait for hours.
> 
> And pipe issues a few days ago that cost them T2B sooner. HS, you are clearly a prophet.



I had a great day at K today. Got to the lot at 10:30 just in time to see many angry skiers leaving. I'm told the Gondi is down until 11:30. Excellent! First I snag a class AA spot just vacated. Then I boot up and voila! the Gondi is running. Get to North Ridge by 11:15 or so and ski until 3:30. Good conditions. And although the lift line was long at times, somehow that never translated into a lot of traffic on the trails. Go figure. Finally got to use the peak walkway. Pretty much a stroll, not getting why some folks consider that a "hike".

All in all a good first day, thanks to my Xpress pass all for $24.50. 

K sucks, don't go there.


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## Newpylong (Nov 24, 2015)

Talk about a lot of sabre rattling. Who cares, just go ski somewhere.


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## steamboat1 (Nov 24, 2015)

JimG. said:


> K sucks, don't go there.



Said that many times myself. Spread the word.

Glad you had a good 1st day. Hoping to get in a few myself next week.


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## jaybird (Nov 25, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Said that many times myself. Spread the word.
> 
> Glad you had a good 1st day. Hoping to get in a few myself next week.



Weekdays there lately are especially crowded with gapers from their assorted 'happy places'.
Why is that exactly :smile:

Gimmee more white meat.


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