# Talking Pennsylvania



## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 1, 2009)

Before my AZ days I had a vague understanding that there where places to ski in Pennsylvania. Since I never had any intention of skiing there I never took the time to find out anything about them. From AZ I’ve learned more about them and pay more attention when they are brought up in conversation.

We get our fair share of people from Pennsylvania vacationing in Whiteface/Lake Placid and when I happen to be riding the gondi and talking to them I always ax which one is the best.

The consensus seems to be Elk followed by Cammelback. I always ax about Blue cause of GSS and the responses are luke warm. They always say its OK (with the qualifier) by Pennsylvania standards, but there are better choices.

Do those in the know think the feedback I’ve gotten is a fair assessment?


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## Greg (Jan 1, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> We get our fair share of people from Pennsylvania vacationing in Whiteface/Lake Placid and when I happen to be riding the gondi and talking to them I always *ax* which one is the best.
> 
> The consensus seems to be Elk followed by Cammelback. I always *ax* about Blue cause of GSS and the responses are luke warm. They always say its OK (with the qualifier) by Pennsylvania standards, but there are better choices.



What's up with the ghetto speak? :blink:

Why don't you just go full out ghetto:

http://www.ghettotranslator.com/tra...post370108&submit=Translate+Any+Url+Ta+Ghetto

:lol:


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## andyzee (Jan 1, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Before my AZ days I had a vague understanding that there where places to ski in Pennsylvania. Since I never had any intention of skiing there I never took the time to find out anything about them. From AZ I’ve learned more about them and pay more attention when they are brought up in conversation.
> 
> We get our fair share of people from Pennsylvania vacationing in Whiteface/Lake Placid and when I happen to be riding the gondi and talking to them I always ax which one is the best.
> 
> ...



Nope 





(but then again, I'm not in the know)  I's just know i would never ever ski Camelback, but have visted Blue on occasion. For PA, Blues not a bad mountain.


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## RootDKJ (Jan 1, 2009)

I think Blue gets a bad rap because their grooming isn't the best.  If you get their early, it's pretty good most of the time.  There's also really only about 8 top to bottom runs, out of 33 trails where Camelback is spread out (wider), offering some different approaches to the lifts.

It's about an hour drive for me to go to Camelback, and 90 minutes to get to Blue.  I prefer Blue because the runs are longer.  Also, the $4.50 chilli in the Summit lodge rocks.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 1, 2009)

Greg said:


> What's up with the ghetto speak? :blink:
> 
> Why don't you just go full out ghetto:
> 
> ...



I know a couple of friends from long island who pronounce ask as ax. It amuses me so I say it.

I've used it in this forum over a 100 times, why bring it up now? Just find ghettotranslator and looking for a chance to work it in?

What's up with hijacking a thread with the first reply?


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## Greg (Jan 1, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I know a couple of friends from long island who pronounce ask as ax. It amuses me so I say it.



Okay.



highpeaksdrifter said:


> I've used it in this forum over a 100 times, why bring it up now? Just find ghettotranslator and looking for a chance to work it in?



You're keeping track? Actually, your axes prompted me to search for the ghettotranslator. I figured there just had to be something like that out there... :lol:



highpeaksdrifter said:


> What's up with hijacking a thread with the first reply?



Just to get a rise out of you. It worked. :razz:

HNY, HPD!


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## andyzee (Jan 1, 2009)

Freaking C.L.I.T.S. always try to get a rise out of you!


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## millerm277 (Jan 1, 2009)

Blue- It has good vert, especially for PA, although the "Home Stretch" run-out gets annoying. Trails aren't bad,. The new trail should help though, another T2B run makes it much better, and makes up for the loss of Sidewinder a couple years ago to the parks. The 6-pack and HSQ are very nice though...6-pack (which is what runs midweek), is incredibly smooth. The biggest problem is the grooming and the direction it faces. Most of the mountain is sort of like Hunter West. Not much in direct sun.

I personally happen to like Sno Mountain (formerly Montage). Terribly slow lifts. However, the North Face pod of Cannonball, Smoke, Boomer, and White Lightening are all great trails. And White Lightening is legitimately steep. Fast Track and Runaway are also nice long runs, although that lift is painfully slow. The rest of the upper mountain is kind of boring, but I can spend all day on the North Face. Also, they installed SMI fan guns along every trail on the mountain, and have been making a TON of snow. Also, most importantly...never any crowds that I've seen there.


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## ski9 (Jan 1, 2009)

Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too.


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## ski9 (Jan 1, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Blue- It has good vert, especially for PA, although the "Home Stretch" run-out gets annoying. Trails aren't bad,. The new trail should help though, another T2B run makes it much better, and makes up for the loss of Sidewinder a couple years ago to the parks. The 6-pack and HSQ are very nice though...6-pack (which is what runs midweek), is incredibly smooth. The biggest problem is the grooming and the direction it faces. Most of the mountain is sort of like Hunter West. Not much in direct sun.
> 
> I personally happen to like Sno Mountain (formerly Montage). Terribly slow lifts. However, the North Face pod of Cannonball, Smoke, Boomer, and White Lightening are all great trails. And White Lightening is legitimately steep. Fast Track and Runaway are also nice long runs, although that lift is painfully slow. The rest of the upper mountain is kind of boring, but I can spend all day on the North Face. Also, they installed SMI fan guns along every trail on the mountain, and have been making a TON of snow. Also, most importantly...never any crowds that I've seen there.



Ten chairs between people this afternoon at Sno...my home hill.


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## RootDKJ (Jan 1, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Blue- It has good vert, especially for PA, although the "Home Stretch" run-out gets annoying. Trails aren't bad,. The new trail should help though, another T2B run makes it much better, and makes up for the loss of Sidewinder a couple years ago to the parks. The 6-pack and HSQ are very nice though...6-pack (which is what runs midweek), is incredibly smooth. The biggest problem is the grooming and the direction it faces. Most of the mountain is sort of like Hunter West. Not much in direct sun.
> 
> I personally happen to like Sno Mountain (formerly Montage). Terribly slow lifts. However, the North Face pod of Cannonball, Smoke, Boomer, and White Lightening are all great trails. And White Lightening is legitimately steep. Fast Track and Runaway are also nice long runs, although that lift is painfully slow. The rest of the upper mountain is kind of boring, but I can spend all day on the North Face. Also, they installed SMI fan guns along every trail on the mountain, and have been making a TON of snow. Also, most importantly...never any crowds that I've seen there.



Switch it up and go through the mini park.


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## JohnGD33 (Jan 1, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Blue- It has good vert, especially for PA, although the "Home Stretch" run-out gets annoying. Trails aren't bad,. The new trail should help though, another T2B run makes it much better, and makes up for the loss of Sidewinder a couple years ago to the parks. The 6-pack and HSQ are very nice though...6-pack (which is what runs midweek), is incredibly smooth. The biggest problem is the grooming and the direction it faces. Most of the mountain is sort of like Hunter West. Not much in direct sun.
> 
> I personally happen to like Sno Mountain (formerly Montage). Terribly slow lifts. However, the North Face pod of Cannonball, Smoke, Boomer, and White Lightening are all great trails. And White Lightening is legitimately steep. Fast Track and Runaway are also nice long runs, although that lift is painfully slow. The rest of the upper mountain is kind of boring, but I can spend all day on the North Face. Also, they installed SMI fan guns along every trail on the mountain, and have been making a TON of snow. Also, most importantly...never any crowds that I've seen there.



I ride sno mtn about 40 days a year and the north face is very fun! The place never seems to be busy!


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## ski9 (Jan 1, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Switch it up and go through the mini park.



I've heard Ray's daughter can't find the keys to the groomers.


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## ski9 (Jan 1, 2009)

JohnGD33 said:


> I ride sno mtn about 40 days a year and the north face is very fun! The place never seems to be busy!



Eh, it's been a little too 'unbusy', though. We've enjoyed the privacy, but even the most xenophobic of us are hoping for a good finish to this holiday.


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## trackbiker (Jan 2, 2009)

I don't have a "home" mountain and ski all over eastern PA. I think you hear about Elk being #1 because it is. You hear about Camelback because it likely has the most skier visits. Here's how I would rank them:

#1. Elk. Has the best terrain. Almost all of their trails are TTB with continuos pitch. While their snowmaking is not the most extensive, their grooming is always ranked near the best nationally. I don't know what their secret is, but they do a great job at grooming. They have added some snow guns this year. The lodge is small and gets crowded on busy days. They don't have any high speed lifts but run the fixed grips at max. speed.

#2. I may be a little prejudiced here because I've likely skied here the most. It would definitely be #2 if the founder was still alive. I like the HS lifts on a weekday but stay away on the weekend. With a HSQ and a HS 6-Pack serving the same trails, they get skied off really fast. I like the long trails and while there is a flat runout at the bottom of the HS lifts, it is still less overall than at Camelback. The plan was to add more trails, and if Ray Tuthill was still around, they would probably be open.  His daughter seems a lot more tight fisted with the pocketbook when it comes to expanding, grooming, and improvements in general. Maybe bulking up the books for a sale? FREE ski check is really nice. Best lighting.

#3.  Sno Mountain. The new owners lined the slopes with SMI snowguns. Never crowded even on a holiday weekend. The Northface has some nice black diamonds with no flat runout but are relatively short. The lifts are slow and the lodge is akin to a high school cafeteria. Lots of parents and grandparents of tubers guarding tables with junk all over them because it's $3.00 for a locker. But if you stay away from the lodge, the conditions are great even into the night due to the low crowds and excellent snowmaking. It's like two areas because most people on this thread would not be interested in the flat upper part of the mountain, except to take a break. They rarely run the Longhaul for that reason and shut it down at night. But I've change my weekend night skiing to Sno from Blue for the conditions.  Hope the new owners make it. Doesn't seem like they spent a lot of money on skiing in the last year. Still need better lighting and a HS lift to compete with CB and Blue. Closest to Elk but can't compete with Elk's terrain.

#4. Camelback. Again, don't go on a weekend. Easy access to NJ and NY brings in the gapers for their annual ski weekend. They have some nice black diamonds but they are short and pretty much alll the same with longer flat runouts than blue. Cliffhanger is the execption with long sustained pitch. Many of their trails are switchbacks which would be considered connectors in N.E. or out west.  I was there Tuesday and the new management seems to also be tightfisted in that on one of their busiest days they didn't have some lifts running that they used to run on busy days and shut down lifts at night that they used to keep open. Big lodge with plenty of room if you look for it. They changed the locker area in the basement to "preferred rentals" or something and added $15.00 parking to the upper lot. Seems they only want the gaper crowd. I won't be back.

Other notables:
Jack Frost: Fun place on a weekday with some nice steeps on the east side. No night skiing but the ticket is also good at Big Boulder for night skiing which is essentially a terrain park.
Blue Knob: Could challenge Elk for #1 in a good snow year but I like Elk's trails better.
Bear Creak:  A few short steeps for a week night outing. BEST LODGE IN THE EAST! And I don't care about lodges.
Spring Mountain: Nice little feeder hill close to Phila. Well managed since the Buckman ski shop family took over operation.

Looking forward to seeing GSS's opinion.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 2, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too.



Based on the hostile tone of your answer, I guess you thought my intent was to put down Pennsylvania skiing it was not. 

I got a lot of my info on Pennsylvania a couple of weeks ago when the Northeast Ski Writers Association was at WF. Several of those guys live in your neck of the woods and of course they have skied all over.

I have not started a thread on AZ in awhile mainly cause I can’t think of anything new to say so I thought I’d give this a try.

We all live where we live for our own reasons. If we ski we have to make the most of what we have. I don’t make fun of ski areas because of where in the country they are located.



ski9 said:


> Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too.



7,000 skiers on a typical weekend? Don’t think so? We get around 225,000 skier visits for a typical season.

What's with the more shitty skiers at WF take? 

Why do you assume it was locals who stole your kids skis?


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## jonhere (Jan 2, 2009)

I grew up skiing the Poconos and still hit them up once a year when visiting family.  

Camelback and Blue are decent and have the best Dec skiing since they make the most snow.  However to close to Jersey, get crowded on weekends.  

Always liked skiing the blacks at Montage.  Few lift lines here. 

Elk is my all time PA favorite.  Nothing fancy about Elk but a great mountain by PA standards.


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## jamesdeluxe (Jan 2, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> when the Northeast Ski Writers Association was at WF.



Did I meet you?  No one identified himself as highpeaksdrifter.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 2, 2009)

James Michaud said:


> Did I meet you?  No one identified himself as highpeaksdrifter.



I was one of the Mt. Hosts on the tour.  There where all good skiers in our group, I had a blast with you guys. I was in the group with Ted Blazer and Ed Krel.


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## jamesdeluxe (Jan 2, 2009)

Too bad, I must've missed you...I was at all of the meetings and the bobsled ride, but the wife and I were skiing by ourselves on both days.  We spent all Saturday ducking ropes.
http://firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7357

Oh well, I need to go back when Lookout is open, so I'll PM you before I head up.

Sorry for the hijack.  I've skied Elk and Camelback a bunch of times.  Both are fun as "gym workouts" -- something to keep you in shape until you get back to more challenging hills.  That said, I nailed a great powder night last March, 12 inches of fresh and dumping all evening.  Very cool to claim that you skied dry powder in PA


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 2, 2009)

James Michaud said:


> Oh well, I need to go back when Lookout is open, so I'll PM you before I head up.


Great, we'll hookup for some runs. Lookout is suppose to open tomorrow.


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## tjf67 (Jan 2, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too.



7k skiers.  Man management would love that.  I dont know if we have ever had that many skiers in a day.    I am guessing it was not a local that stole a ski.  Dont have much of a problem with that until the riff raff comes to town.  Which I might add I enjoy sharing the hill with them


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 2, 2009)

Blue mountain ski area....fast lifts..big crowds..big vert..interesting runs..poor grooming..good snowmaking..no amenities

Camelback..fast lifts..shorter runs than Blue..lots of people..more of a resort atmosphere..

Elk..good terrain..slow lifts..lousy snowmaking..far..for the drive to Elk, I could be halfway to Vermont..

Jack Frost/Big Boulder...nice snow..tiny vert..coldest in the Poconos..the base of Big Boulder is higher than the summit at Blue..

Spring mountain..one exit north of Philly on the Turnpike..skiing on two mountain faces

Bear Creak..nice lodge crappy mountain..jibhonk central..

Sno..flat on top steep on the bottom...slow lifts..crappy website..


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## campgottagopee (Jan 2, 2009)

Only place I've ever skied in PA is Elk so I wont be much help. That being said I did enjoy Elk---reminded me of Greek with good terrain and good peeps to drink beers with.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 2, 2009)

HighPeaksDrifter...Ski9 once skied nearly every PA ski area during the course of a month for an article he wrote..he is legit..and a wicked fast skier.  I'm faster than him straightrunning but in the gates he's up there.  

If you make it down to Blue mountain, I'll buy your lift ticket..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 2, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Only place I've ever skied in PA is Elk so I wont be much help. That being said I did enjoy Elk---reminded me of Greek with good terrain and good peeps to drink beers with.



I'm thinking about doing a combined 2 day/1 night weekend trip to ski Elk and Greek later this winter.  I'll see if I can get some PASRs to join..it's been a long time since I've skied Elk..do they still have the people mover in the parking lot???


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## campgottagopee (Jan 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'm thinking about doing a combined 2 day/1 night weekend trip to ski Elk and Greek later this winter.  I'll see if I can get some PASRs to join..it's been a long time since I've skied Elk..do they still have the people mover in the parking lot???



Not sure--havent been there for years


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## ERJ-145CA (Jan 2, 2009)

Out of the 3 Poconos areas I've skied in the last 3 years (Blue, Camelback and Shawnee) Blue is my favorite.  I've skied other Pocono areas when I was a kid but that was over 20 years ago so I can't compare the others.  Blue has the most vert and the longest runs and with the 6 pack you can ski a lot of vert in a day.  I don't know about crowds because I've only been to the Poconos on non-holiday weekdays but I'm sure they all are crowded especially Shawnee and Camelback.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2009)

Is the general consensus that the Poconos are better than than the western areas like Seven Springs or do people from the eastern part of the state not bother because in similar drive time they can be in the Catskills?  

I've only skied Seven Springs.   Though the vert is short, it's quite wide.  I'd ski it over Wachusett or Crotched.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Is the general consensus that the Poconos are better than than the western areas like Seven Springs or do people from the eastern part of the state not bother because in similar drive time they can be in the Catskills?
> 
> I've only skied Seven Springs.   Though the vert is short, it's quite wide.  I'd ski it over Wachusett or Crotched.




I don't think many people from Western PA have skied eastern PA or vice versa..Hunter is 3 hours from me..Seven Springs is 4 hours away.  Western PA is colder and snowier than eastern PA..I've never skied Blue Knob but I have also heard people claiming it's the best in PA when everything is open.  Seven Springs does the most skier visits per season in PA at almost 500k...Camelback and Blue both do about 300k annual visits..more than many larger New England and Rocky mountain resorts but there only about 100something acres of skiable terrain at Blue and Camelback and both resorts have two high speed lifts so it can get really crowded.

Blue mountain always opened at 730AM on weekends and Holidays which was great because you could ski alot of uncrowded runs before all the TDH's show up..but now they open at 8AM on weekends and Holidays which makes a big difference..now there are 100 people waiting to be scanned in at opening bell..and by 9AM there are liftlines on busy weekends..


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> HighPeaksDrifter...Ski9 once skied nearly every PA ski area during the course of a month for an article he wrote..he is legit..and a wicked fast skier.  I'm faster than him straightrunning but in the gates he's up there.
> 
> If you make it down to Blue mountain, I'll buy your lift ticket..



Thanks for the offer. You never know.


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## Old Geezer (Jan 3, 2009)

My take, from a long time PA skier who now skis more in VT than in PA in the last 12 years.

Elk: Great terrain for PA.  Skiing there you get the distinct feeling you're in a rural mountainous area, on the drive to/from and while on the slopes.  Their grooming gets good reviews, and when they have ample natural snow it's great. But their man made snow is prone to turning into long patches of solid boilerplate. Their signature bump run below the quad is very nice.

Blue: Enormous crowds on the weekends, bad snow and bad grooming.  Used to be good for night skiing, very cheap for a night ticket, and no crowds at night.  Good terrain, but compromised by bad snow and grooming.

Camelback: NYC and NJ one-weekend-per-year-on-the-snow crowd meets the Poconos. Short, steep headwall runs that flatten out quickly. Twenty years ago it was better, but its lost something.

Sno Mtn: Haven't been in there in a few years, but you get the distinct feeling they can do much more with what they have in terrain and location. The direct opposite of skiing at Elk, you're in an urban environment when you are there (brand new shopping center adjacent to the hill). When private ownership bought it from county government a few years ago they had a good start, but have stumbled in the last two years. It's clear skiers would have been better served had the experienced ski area organization (Liberty/Whitetail/RoundTop) purchased it rather than the group that actually did, the owners are having money problems paying bills, and don't have a coherent direction in day to day operations.

Jack Frost (not Big Boulder): Not the greatest vertical, but they have the best snow making and best grooming for all of eastern PA.  They do the best with the hand they've been dealt.  I get there a few times a season, it's always a pleasant experience, and you leave thinking that was not bad for a small mountain.

Denton Hill: Like Jack Frost but steeper and not as consistent snow making or grooming. They get more natural snow due to location.  Never ever a crowd.

Blue Knob: Haven't been there in 15 years.  I'll guess it hasn't changed much since.


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## madskier6 (Jan 3, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too.



This is really an obnoxious response to HPD's fairly innocuous initial post.  He was trying to determine if the info he'd heard about PA skiing was the consensus among folks who regularly ski in PA that post here.  Your response came out with both barrels blazing against his home hill when he did not compare WF to PA areas at all or make any kind of quantitative or qualitative comparisons between PA & WF.  

WTF is up your ass?  Oh that's right, you're the guy who threatens to push people off the chair lift you're sharing if they happen to want to light up a cigarette.  I should have expected that kind of response from you.  Lighten up would ya?  Life's too short dude.


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## Greg (Jan 3, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> This is really an obnoxious response to HPD's fairly innocuous initial post.  He was trying to determine if the info he'd heard about PA skiing was the consensus among folks who regularly ski in PA that post here.  Your response came out with both barrels blazing against his home hill when he did not compare WF to PA areas at all or make any kind of quantitative or qualitative comparisons between PA & WF.
> 
> WTF is up your ass?  Oh that's right, you're the guy who threatens to push people off the chair lift you're sharing if they happen to want to light up a cigarette.  I should have expected that kind of response from you.  Lighten up would ya?  Life's too short dude.



Wow. It takes a real "special" person to elicit a response like this from madskier6! Guy's about as mellow as they come.


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## campgottagopee (Jan 3, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> This is really an obnoxious response to HPD's fairly innocuous initial post.  He was trying to determine if the info he'd heard about PA skiing was the consensus among folks who regularly ski in PA that post here.  Your response came out with both barrels blazing against his home hill when he did not compare WF to PA areas at all or make any kind of quantitative or qualitative comparisons between PA & WF.
> 
> WTF is up your ass?  Oh that's right, you're the guy who threatens to push people off the chair lift you're sharing if they happen to want to light up a cigarette.  I should have expected that kind of response from you.  Lighten up would ya?  Life's too short dude.



Agree--not sure where that came from:idea:


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## Greg (Jan 3, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Agree--not sure where that came from:idea:



I do. ski9 is your classic internet tough guy/know-it-all.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 3, 2009)

Greg said:


> I do. ski9 is your classic internet tough guy/know-it-all.



Why are you guys trying to hijack the PA thread..alot of good info in here..please Greg start a Sundown rollcall thread or something..


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## madskier6 (Jan 3, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Why are you guys trying to hijack the PA thread..alot of good info in here..please Greg start a Sundown rollcall thread or something..



ski9 started the hijack by gratuitously slamming Whiteface in response to HPD's interesting thread/discussion topic.  Take your beef up with him GSS.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 3, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> ski9 started the hijack by gratuitously slamming Whiteface in response to HPD's interesting thread/discussion topic.  Take your beef up with him GSS.



I sort of feel like HPD should just come to PA and ski with me and Ski9 at Blue or Sno or Elk or wherever..we'll all be on sharp assed waxed to the max race skis tearing it up..sounds like a blast..the ski slopes are a great equalizer..especially among fast skiers and riders..


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## campgottagopee (Jan 3, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I sort of feel like HPD should just come to PA and ski with me and Ski9 at Blue or Sno or Elk or wherever..we'll all be on sharp assed waxed to the max race skis tearing it up..sounds like a blast..the ski slopes are a great equalizer..especially among fast skiers and riders..



Do you really think he would want to come down there and hang with that dude after he acted like such an ass??? Maybe, dunno, but I know I wouldn't.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 3, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Do you really think he would want to come down there and hang with that dude after he acted like such an ass??? Maybe, dunno, but I know I wouldn't.



Well then you're missing out..sorry for you!!!


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## campgottagopee (Jan 3, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well then you're missing out..sorry for you!!!



I know--I miss out on a lot of stuff


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## GolfingOwl (Jan 3, 2009)

Here is my take, being a suburban Philly guy who skis PA for daytrips and mostly Vermont for extended trips.  I also have two kids, 7 and 10, so my views are biased towards what is most fun for all of us:

1.  Elk - the best terrain and snow (natural) in PA.  Almost like a small NE mountain.  Very interesting runs and most natural snow in Eastern PA.  They also let several trails go ungroomed so you get bump runs,etc.. Slow lifts, but that is not a bad thing on a small mountain (and you wonder why the slopes of Camelback and Blue are packed??).  Biggest issue is lack of snow making.  With their northern location, they could be open earlier and close later than everyone if they had decent snowmaking but they constantly lag behind.  Just take a look at their conditions page, they are presently about 60% open while everyone else is 100%.  Lack of investment in mountain is both good and bad - you lag in things like snowmaking but keeps crowds down and keeps a laid-back feel to the place.

2.  Jack Frost - A lack of vertical is the biggest negative but otherwise it is a great little mountain.  Excellent snowmaking and cold temps keep snow great (plus they now have fan-guns).  East-mountain has some nice steeps, even if they are short.  Best thing going for JF is the trees.  Only eastern PA resort where they truely let you ski almost anywhere (try that at Blue or Camelback).  They also let some trails go ungroomed from time-to-time.  Has a nice laid-back feel to it.  Only one terrain park tends to limit boarders as well, a plus on small mountains where boarders really seems to scrape snow.

3.  Camelback - Small vert but with a wide mountain layout zig-zaging trails, mountain seems bigger than it is.  Multiple lifts allow you to avoid crowds if you know where to go.  Do some interesting things like letting half a green trail go ungroomed so you have bumps on a green (supper fun for kids and aspiring bump skiers).   Can be very crowded.  Have high speed lifts but not sure this a great thing for an overcrowded small mountain.  Can't wait to see the crowds once the slopeside hotel is completed!!!

4.  Blue - Not a big fan even though it is the closest real mountain to me (Spring doesn't qualify).  Snow is typically very poor (most likely due to south location) unless you love skiing on man-made ice pellets.  Also unbelievably crowded and packed with boarders.  Poor layout such as only two green trails from top being narrow and winding making for packed, icy, death runs.  They do have some of the better blacks if they are not ice sheets and usually let at least one trail bump up.  See my comments above about high speed lifts (now add to the fact you have a 6-pack).  Ski patrol were a little full of themselves before they were TV stars.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 3, 2009)

golfingowl said:


> 4.  Blue - not a big fan even though it is the closest real mountain to me (spring doesn't qualify).  Snow is typically very poor (most likely due to south location) unless you love skiing on man-made ice pellets.  Also unbelievably crowded and packed with boarders.  Poor layout such as only two green trails from top being narrow and winding making for packed, icy, death runs.  They do have some of the better blacks if they are not ice sheets and usually let at least one trail bump up.  See my comments above about high speed lifts (now add to the fact you have a 6-pack).  *ski patrol were a little full of themselves before they were tv stars*.



b i n g o


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> This is really an obnoxious response to HPD's fairly innocuous initial post.  He was trying to determine if the info he'd heard about PA skiing was the consensus among folks who regularly ski in PA that post here.  Your response came out with both barrels blazing against his home hill when he did not compare WF to PA areas at all or make any kind of quantitative or qualitative comparisons between PA & WF.
> 
> WTF is up your ass?  Oh that's right, you're the guy who threatens to push people off the chair lift you're sharing if they happen to want to light up a cigarette.  I should have expected that kind of response from you.  Lighten up would ya?  Life's too short dude.




Because WF locals ripped off PARA kids gear during early season point chasing races three straight years. I know because they finally caught them selling the gear on eBay. The kids (er, 20-something year old guys) had more than 100 sales of race skis under a half dozen eBay usernames. Wonder why it didn't make the local paper up there? 

And, yes, the skis were all locked...cables were cut. Also taken and sold were backpacks with shin  guards and a small fortune in HF waxes and overlays. To be clear, my kid's gear was never stolen---I just witnessed devastated kids from our team and state. And WF's response each time was "We're really busy and can't be responsible in any way and don't want to bother cooperating with a police investigation," by refusing to provide any information about times and dates of other thefts. F*ckers.

And just FYI, we hosted a USSA J1/2 race last season at Sno and nobody's gear was stolen. We don't do that sh*t....

My point about 7k sh*tty skiers at WF is this: I've found there are great skiers at huge resorts and there are great skiers at tiny hills. My own opinion is that if you turn your nose up and pass up 50 or 100 days of skiing your local hill to spend 12 at Beaver Creek, I probably have nothing in common with you. Having taught at Hunter and Mount Snow---twin Meccas of the angry unwashed during those years---just might have jaded me toward the pushy 'once a monthers'....but it gave me a great appreciation for the people at the heart of the sport; the race coaches, instructors who actually care about teaching, and the oddballs like GSS who would pass up a sure thing with a top shelf breezy if it meant missing Saturday morning first chair.

Skiing, IMO, isn't so much about where you are but what you've collected along the way. Today, I skied with my daughter's coach's father---an older guy from Germany who grew up on wooden skis and told me how Tuckerman's reminded him of skiing as a kid---his town held an annual race after Easter (too much snow before then). They had to hike the fields for an hour, then climb three hours up the snowfields. He remembered trying to find a short grownup to follow because his stride was so short. The story went on for three chair lifts...how the moguls built as 400 people from town on seven foot skis slid and tumbled down the mountain.

And if it makes me an internet tough guy by believing anyone who sits next to you and lights up a cigarette is a brain dead assh*le, then so be it. Smoke away. Flick your used butts wherever you want...someone will surely clean up after you. And, yes, if they cloud my space with cancer-riddled smoke, they risk being tossed off the lift, perhaps directly onto Greg. FOUR!

So pile on me for not answering HPD? The first response to his post was from the owner giving him crap for 'ghetto speak', followed directly by a "For PA, it's not a bad mountain". Then came more "ghetto speak" comments and then a reference to C.L.I.T.S. By page 4, Madskier6 decided "ski9 started the hijack". 

Yeah, okay, whatever.


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

Greg said:


> I do. ski9 is your classic internet tough guy/know-it-all.



And the owner quickly turns it into a personal attack. Real special.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 4, 2009)

ski9 said:


> So pile on me for not answering HPD? The first response to his post was from the owner giving him crap for 'ghetto speak', followed directly by a "For PA, it's not a bad mountain". .



When I ask that's usually how people from PA begin or end there answer.

"For PA it has steep trails" or for a "PA area it has great snow." I was just writing about feed back I have gotten. I guess they're trying to keep things relative.

You took from my post what you wanted it to say so you could do your angry man thing.


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## madskier6 (Jan 4, 2009)

ski9 said:


> And if it makes me an internet tough guy by believing anyone who sits next to you and lights up a cigarette is a brain dead assh*le, then so be it. Smoke away. Flick your used butts wherever you want...someone will surely clean up after you. And, yes, if they cloud my space with cancer-riddled smoke, they risk being tossed off the lift, perhaps directly onto Greg. FOUR!



Just to be clear, I'm not a smoker nor do I think it's appealing or appropriate to smoke cigarettes on the lift or in the liftline.  I just think it's complete overkill (& actually illegal) to threaten to push someone off a chairlift because they're about to light up a butt.  A simple request to not smoke on the chair is more appropriate IMHO.  But that's just me.


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> When I ask that's usually how people from PA begin or end there answer.
> 
> "For PA it has steep trails" or for a "PA area it has great snow." I was just writing about feed back I have gotten. I guess they're trying to keep things relative.
> 
> You took from my post what you wanted it to say so you could do your angry man thing.



Uh, no. I guess you missed the part where I discussed how WF management made it harder for the local cops to nab the local robbers for three years contributing to some really bad times for some really good kids. I readily admit it is difficult to separate certain situations and events, but my personal experience has me pretty sour on WF. And keep in mind, I didn't come here posting about it...the subject just came up, more or less. Along the lines of someone posting they'd never visit some small town, but they live in NY and just wanted to know what the town was like---oh, and some of the people he asks had been mugged three times in NY and the mayor didn't want to help the cops.

That's the angry man thing? Okay.


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not a smoker nor do I think it's appealing or appropriate to smoke cigarettes on the lift or in the liftline.  I just think it's complete overkill (& actually illegal) to threaten to push someone off a chairlift because they're about to light up a butt.  A simple request to not smoke on the chair is more appropriate IMHO.  But that's just me.



Pro steroids in baseball; pro smoking on the chairlifts while sitting next to strangers; and, are all for locals ripping off skis.

I'm against that stuff. But that's just me.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 4, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Uh, no. I guess you missed the part where I discussed how WF management made it harder for the local cops to nab the local robbers for three years contributing to some really bad times for some really good kids. I readily admit it is difficult to separate certain situations and events, but my personal experience has me pretty sour on WF. And keep in mind, I didn't come here posting about it...the subject just came up, more or less. Along the lines of someone posting they'd never visit some small town, but they live in NY and just wanted to know what the town was like---oh, and some of the people he asks had been mugged three times in NY and the mayor didn't want to help the cops.
> 
> That's the angry man thing? Okay.



The thread was not about WF it was about PA skiing. Why did you through your anti-WF bias into this thread?



ski9 said:


> Pro steroids in baseball; pro smoking on the chairlifts while sitting next to strangers; and, are all for locals ripping off skis.
> 
> I'm against that stuff. But that's just me.



Steriods and stealing are illegal, smoking outside is not. I've never smoked a day in my life, but I don't get mad at people for doing what they have a legal right to do.


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

Old Geezer said:


> Sno Mtn: Haven't been in there in a few years, but you get the distinct feeling they can do much more with what they have in terrain and location. The direct opposite of skiing at Elk, you're in an urban environment when you are there (brand new shopping center adjacent to the hill). When private ownership bought it from county government a few years ago they had a good start, but have stumbled in the last two years. It's clear skiers would have been better served had the experienced ski area organization (Liberty/Whitetail/RoundTop) purchased it rather than the group that actually did, the owners are having money problems paying bills, and don't have a coherent direction in day to day operations.



Jeez, how many message boards do you go around trashing my hill? 

Geezer: Dennis won the bidding war. The other bidder wanted to buy it and flip it. Who was that good for? You haven't skied the hill in more than six years and it's "clear skiers would have been better served" if someone else bought it? We got 195 PoleCats and 35 SMI guns to cover 209 acres. We had mid-winter conditions on the entire NF when ALL of your diamonds were closed last January.

You've called Dennis a "criminal" because Philly politicians he had to deal with were crooks and went to jail. Dennis was cleared and the prosecutor was admonished by the judge for dragging a good man through Hell. What, you felt the need to take up the mudslinging?

The new management repaired the pipes that kept the only two mile long runs closed for four seasons. They built the only Superpipe in the region. They opened all the main diamonds this year in NOVEMBER. They are piece by piece building a year 'round resort, with a wave pool and every other summer attraction. The Zip Rider is in, the bumper boats are in, the lazy river is in, and a number of slides are in...

Sno has been far and away a better skiing experience than Montage ever was. I'm there EVERY day. You hack at Sno in several forums, yet you haven't been there in years.

Could they use a few more lights? Uh, yeah, sure. Night racing is tough, but we wear clear goggles. It doesn't change the fact that we skied a foot of billowing, untracked manmade on White Lightning until 11am.

I'd suggest you stop the hate and actually ski what you've been hating on for the last two years. Perhaps you could make an informed post about Sno. But maybe it's best you use your Clapper to turn out your lights and just get some sleep.

Oh, and I like your hill just fine, although they haven't bought a new snow gun since my last season pass...


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2009)

2knees, powhunter and I had a smoke on the chairlift today, not while on steroids though.  :lol:


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Why did you through your anti-WF bias into this thread?



Whatever that means...I can't figure it out.





highpeaksdrifter said:


> Steriods and stealing are illegal, smoking outside is not. I've never smoked a day in my life, but I don't get mad at people for doing what they have a legal right to do.



Good for you. I didn't suggest you should throw anyone off a lift. Smokers just don't realize how disgusting they make OTHER people's clothes smell by smoking in close proximity. But isn't littering illegal in NYS? Or do WF smokers eat their butts? 



Eh, are we done, yet?


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> 2knees, powhunter and I had a smoke on the chairlift today, not while on steroids though.  :lol:



I heard you swallow, so there wasn't a crime...




NO, just kidding. Sorry, dead...I'll shut up.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 4, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Whatever that means...I can't figure it out.



I wrote through instead of throw, let me try again. The thread was about PA skiing, no one wrote anything about WF. Why did you bring up your anti-WF sentiment in this thread?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 4, 2009)

Time to make some popcorn..


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I wrote through instead of throw, let me try again. The thread was about PA skiing, no one wrote anything about WF. Why did you bring up your anti-WF sentiment in this thread?



"We get our fair share of people from Pennsylvania vacationing in Whiteface/Lake Placid and when I happen to be riding the gondi and talking to them I always ax which one is the best."

Wasn't this your post? Sorry, I thought WF was Whiteface. You're a little confusing HPD...

PA skiing is very much separated by regions. Pocono skiers rarely ski in western PA, or even the southern tier. Someone from Roundtop rarely comes up to Sno. Someone from Seven Springs doesn't travel to Blue. If you ask a Denton skier the best place in PA, he'll probably say Denton. If a PA skier travels, he/she generally heads out of state to the north, or the southern skiers head further south. Yes, there's a higher peak south of PA than KMart. Penn Staters who come from the Poconos will ski Tussey, but sure don't go back after graduation.

So, if you ask the typical Lake Placid visitor the best place in PA, you're mostly getting a very parochial view. 

That's why Elk is the magical place. It's tucked up in the NE corner of the state and is a pain in the ass to get to. It's only 20 miles from me as the crow flies, but seems like twice as far. Because they've marketed well, they gained the rep as the best snowmaking and grooming in the state. Ski Mag annually rates them as the Best Snow. It's also unique because it's set above the Poconos, in it's own range called the Endless Mountains. Same exact geological plate, etc, but it sounds better.

The Poconos have Shecky Green...the Endless Mountains have sunsets.

But Elk has lagged in their snowmaking upgrades and blow about 25% the capacity of Sno and about 35% that of CB or Blue. 

What's the number one ingredient to snow quality? Skier traffic. Elk just doesn't get scraped off as quickly as Blue or CB. That's their magic. Much less manmade snow and a much smaller grooming fleet. But those same NYC hoards that crowd the slopes and scrape them down to a shiny blue, continue to vote it as the best quality snow. 

Elk is Hell on weekend. It is great on weekdays, if the weather has been cold enough for their old guns.

Trackbiker summed up PA skiing as well as anyone. But I'd bet that the vast majority of those gondi people you talk to don't have much of an idea for true comparison. 

Lastly, PA skiing is different for everyone. I found a niche in a place that has a 550ft vert headwall (the hill is 1000' vert) that is steeper than most diamonds in VT. There's never anyone else on it and it's open seven days a week until 10pm. There are a dozen top of the line PoleCats lining it and run almost too often. I can park about 20 yards from the top of the headwall and grab a few runs down it after work every night.


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## ski9 (Jan 4, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Time to make some popcorn..



I bet Jeffy's eating popcorn in bed with Tommy.


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## snoseek (Jan 4, 2009)

This thread turned so summerlike.......


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## Old Geezer (Jan 4, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Jeez, how many message boards do you go around trashing my hill?


Trashing  your hill, no.  Offering up my opinion, yes.  

I gather you expect if someone's opinion doesn't mesh with your opinion then the other person should keep quiet, move out of the way and let you speak. That's very naive.

I haven't skied there in several years.  But extended family and people I do business with have, and still do. They total six different adult skiers, and a few kids.  They have a consensus opinion, which I'll value much more than yours in this.

I don't know who this Dennis guy is, and I don't want to know.  An established organization with a track record of already owning and managing three ski "resorts" in the state would clearly have done better then the group that bought the place.  If you live there, ask around to to see how eager vendors (construction, electrical, etc.) and other suppliers are to do business with the owners.  I already know, I talk to the same small business owners. For example, there's this newspaper article about unpaid bills, and a few suppliers filing liens to get their funds: http://www.scrantontimes.com/articles/2008/06/26/top_local_stories/19805189.txt


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## campgottagopee (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Because WF locals ripped off PARA kids gear during early season point chasing races three straight years. I know because they finally caught them selling the gear on eBay. The kids (er, 20-something year old guys) had more than 100 sales of race skis under a half dozen eBay usernames. Wonder why it didn't make the local paper up there?
> 
> And, yes, the skis were all locked...cables were cut. Also taken and sold were backpacks with shin  guards and a small fortune in HF waxes and overlays. To be clear, my kid's gear was never stolen---I just witnessed devastated kids from our team and state. And WF's response each time was "We're really busy and can't be responsible in any way and don't want to bother cooperating with a police investigation," by refusing to provide any information about times and dates of other thefts. F*ckers.
> 
> ...



What an ass!!!!! Shit gets stolen EVERYWHERE all the time---just cause kids from PA get ripped off it's a big deal, whaaaaaaaa---cry somewhere else. I've skied in PA, NY, VT, NH and the only place I've ever had skis stolen was in VT. Oh, and peeps smokin on the lifts---they have every right to.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> "We get our fair share of people from Pennsylvania vacationing in Whiteface/Lake Placid and when I happen to be riding the gondi and talking to them I always ax which one is the best."
> 
> Wasn't this your post? Sorry, I thought WF was Whiteface. You're a little confusing HPD...




Fair enough, but I wasn’t comparing WF to PA areas. I wasn’t singing it’s praises either, I was just using it as a point of reference so people would know where I got my information from.

I never met for this thread to be about bashing PA areas or the people who enjoy skiing there. You’re the one who led it to the negative slant it’s taken.


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## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

Rode up a chair with 3 Blue Mountain snowboarders yesterday at Hunter...   Brought back memories of skiing Blue...

it was their first time to Hunter...  All they could say is it it was great and doesn't suck like everyone says it does down at Blue...


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## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> And the owner quickly turns it into a personal attack. Real special.



ummmmm....  yeah.....


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## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> And the owner quickly turns it into a personal attack. Real special.



Aren't you the same guy that got all bent out of shape when the AZ crew had the nerve to question the Denton 66 degree slope thing?

http://www.paskiandride.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=2027&view=findpost&p=33494

I see plenty of personal attacks from you in that thread, kettle. Doesn't seem like you've evolved much since then aside from the fact that you've gotten over yourself and post here now. In addition to your Internet tough guy (pushing people off the lift if they light a butt) and know-it-all (countless examples of that) traits, you also seem to be a little hypersensitive whenever anyone questions PA skiing. A bit of a complex about it really. You sure have quite the pleasant online persona, don't you? :lol: Are you like this in real life?


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## tjf67 (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Because WF locals ripped off PARA kids gear during early season point chasing races three straight years. I know because they finally caught them selling the gear on eBay. The kids (er, 20-something year old guys) had more than 100 sales of race skis under a half dozen eBay usernames. Wonder why it didn't make the local paper up there?
> 
> And, yes, the skis were all locked...cables were cut. Also taken and sold were backpacks with shin  guards and a small fortune in HF waxes and overlays. To be clear, my kid's gear was never stolen---I just witnessed devastated kids from our team and state. And WF's response each time was "We're really busy and can't be responsible in any way and don't want to bother cooperating with a police investigation," by refusing to provide any information about times and dates of other thefts. F*ckers.
> 
> ...




Anger management is something you should look into before you hurt someone.  You must be a joy to be around


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## 2knees (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> I've found there are great skiers at huge resorts and there are great skiers at tiny hills. My own opinion is that if you turn your nose up and pass up 50 or 100 days of skiing your local hill to spend 12 at Beaver Creek, I probably have nothing in common with you.



In a vacuum, ignoring all the rest of this thread, i totally agree with this piece.


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## GolfingOwl (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> PA skiing is very much separated by regions. Pocono skiers rarely ski in western PA, or even the southern tier. Someone from Roundtop rarely comes up to Sno. Someone from Seven Springs doesn't travel to Blue. If you ask a Denton skier the best place in PA, he'll probably say Denton. If a PA skier travels, he/she generally heads out of state to the north, or the southern skiers head further south. Yes, there's a higher peak south of PA than KMart. Penn Staters who come from the Poconos will ski Tussey, but sure don't go back after graduation.
> 
> So, if you ask the typical Lake Placid visitor the best place in PA, you're mostly getting a very parochial view.
> 
> ...



I haven't skied Sno/Montage since I was a kid so I can't comment - though I will try to get up there and give it a shot hopefully this year.

I agree with your general premise about the regionalized nature of PA skiing.  However, I can't agree with some of your comments regarding Elk.  To say that Elk conditions versus Camelback or Blue are solely because of skier numbers is a very simplistic view.  Elk is colder and gets more natural snow so their snow is better to begin with.  Blue's snow is the worst because it gets the least least natural (and sometimes rain when Elk gets snow) and they typically are blowing snow in warmer temps than other mountains.  Sure if Elk was as packed as Blue or Camelback their snow wouldn't be as good as it's current rep.  But it would still probably be better than those southern moutains because the product is better to begin with.  

I do agree with your statement regarding their poor snowmaking (as stated in my post above).  Their owner clearly runs the mountain with as little cap ex as possible (which is why if he ever decides to sell, there will be a great opportunity for someone with some capital to put into the mountain).  But I'm not sure where you get that Elk has only 25% of the capicity of Sno (or 35% of Camelback, which implies Sno has more capicity than Camelback - maybe you meant Elk has 25% less capacity than Sno).  I see that Sno presently has a little over half of their trails open.  Clearly, their snomaking isn't up to par with Camelback or Blue (or JF/BB).  The fact that both Sno and Elk are not 100% open when nearly every other "Pocono" mountain is, shows they both are way behind the others in that area.


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## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> What an ass!!!!! Shit gets stolen EVERYWHERE all the time---just cause kids from PA get ripped off it's a big deal, whaaaaaaaa---cry somewhere else. I've skied in PA, NY, VT, NH and the only place I've ever had skis stolen was in VT. Oh, and peeps smokin on the lifts---they have every right to.



More personal attacks. Yes, gear gets stolen everywhere, but does management impede police investigations everywhere? Calling me an ass because WF wouldn't help the cops and let the guys get away for it for three seasons? Piss off to you.


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## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

GolfingOwl said:


> I haven't skied Sno/Montage since I was a kid so I can't comment - though I will try to get up there and give it a shot hopefully this year.
> 
> I agree with your general premise about the regionalized nature of PA skiing.  However, I can't agree with some of your comments regarding Elk.  To say that Elk conditions versus Camelback or Blue are solely because of skier numbers is a very simplistic view.  Elk is colder and gets more natural snow so their snow is better to begin with.  Blue's snow is the worst because it gets the least least natural (and sometimes rain when Elk gets snow) and they typically are blowing snow in warmer temps than other mountains.  Sure if Elk was as packed as Blue or Camelback their snow wouldn't be as good as it's current rep.  But it would still probably be better than those southern moutains because the product is better to begin with.
> 
> I do agree with your statement regarding their poor snowmaking (as stated in my post above).  Their owner clearly runs the mountain with as little cap ex as possible (which is why if he ever decides to sell, there will be a great opportunity for someone with some capital to put into the mountain).  But I'm not sure where you get that Elk has only 25% of the capicity of Sno (or 35% of Camelback, which implies Sno has more capicity than Camelback - maybe you meant Elk has 25% less capacity than Sno).  I see that Sno presently has a little over half of their trails open.  Clearly, their snomaking isn't up to par with Camelback or Blue (or JF/BB).  The fact that both Sno and Elk are not 100% open when nearly every other "Pocono" mountain is, shows they both are way behind the others in that area.



Yes, skier traffic is the MOST important factor in snow quality. Far and away. No comparison. Consider this: what's a narrow, 1000ft long headwall like for the first person after a 12 inch snowfall in the east? What's it like after 500 people have chopped it up? 

But probably more relevant: take the best cold manmade snow and groom it into perfect cord. Then have 2000 people ski the slope. Compare that to some old tripod mounted guns spewing marginal snow, then groom it with 30 year old cats. But only five skiers ski the run. EVERY time, the one with less traffic will hold up better. The "margin for error", so to speak, is about two inches deep on a typical PA ski slope.

Sno opened all it's main diamonds early. The average weekday crowd has been about 150 people. This past Sat/Sun, there were maybe a 100 cars in the lot until noon. At the holiday peak of 1pm on Saturday, there were five empty chairs between skiers on the North Face lift. Business has been so slow, it's hard to justify opening the long, wide greens on skier's right. We were skiing untouched cord on the diamonds until 11am both Sat and Sun. Sno is still trying to recover from what the county did to the place over the years. They have the best snow in PA and there are people like Old Geezer who haven't been there and post all over the place about how much it sucks.


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## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

Old Geezer said:


> Trashing  your hill, no.  Offering up my opinion, yes.
> 
> I gather you expect if someone's opinion doesn't mesh with your opinion then the other person should keep quiet, move out of the way and let you speak. That's very naive.
> 
> ...



You're full of crap and a troll. Elk has defaulted on bills and been sued by contractors dozens of times over the years. Where are all your concerned posts about that? The county didn't pay the water bill for years and failed to turn over the info at closing, so Sno was sued for water use from years before they took ownership. If you buy any property from a corrupt county government, I'd say you're asking for headaches. And, yes, the admin before the Corderro years was corrupt as Hell.

You also give the impression skiing Sno is like skiing in Brooklyn. You can see some of the valley buildings and lights from the top of the green circles, but what do you experience when you ski the real slopes? The North Face is an amazing place that looks over a gorge filled with a narrow reservoir. You are surrounded by evergreens and it's a totally natural experience. What pissed you off and put you on the Sno attack? Someone mention all the smell of cow shit as you drive into Elk? 

Is your two year campaign to mudsling ever going to stop? What's your goal? To help close a ski area?


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> You also give the impression skiing Sno is like skiing in Brooklyn.



Probably learned that from your relentless Hunter blasting...   

I hear Sno is more like west Philly.... 

This is an enjoyable thread..  Keep it going...


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 5, 2009)

I love a good flame war at lunch time..


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> More personal attacks. Yes, gear gets stolen everywhere, but does management impede police investigations everywhere? Calling me an ass because WF wouldn't help the cops and let the guys get away for it for three seasons? Piss off to you.



I have a hard time believing that WF, or any other ski area for that matter, would not want to cooperate with police and intentionally let a gang of thieves run wild for 3 years. I’m there all the time and this is the first I’ve heard of it. I did; however, here the other day that a thief was caught trying to sell some skis on the internet that had been stolen from WF.

I’d like to look into it more and find out for myself. Ski9 if you can supply me with dates and items you know of that would be a start. If you don’t want to post them in the open forum you can PM me. If you don’t want to do that I’ll see what I can find out for myself.

I know all the upper management guys at WF. They are all good and decent people who honestly want everyone’s experience at WF to be the best it can be. There has to be another side to this story IMO.


----------



## campgottagopee (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> More personal attacks. Yes, gear gets stolen everywhere, but does management impede police investigations everywhere? Calling me an ass because WF wouldn't help the cops and let the guys get away for it for three seasons? Piss off to you.



WF had nothing to do with ME calling YOU an ASS---think about it


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 5, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> WF had nothing to do with ME calling YOU an ASS---think about it



personal attacks will not be tolerated..Grow Up!!!


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> personal attacks will not be tolerated..Grow Up!!!



Wow...Stickin up for you own...  Shoobies UNITE!!!!!

i say go for the throat....


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> Wow...Stickin up for you own...  Shoobies UNITE!!!!!
> 
> i say go for the throat....



I ain't no shoobie..anyway we need a thread on Ohio or New York now..


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I ain't no shoobie..anyway we need a thread on Ohio or New York now..



Your not from PA?  sorry...


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> Your not from PA?  sorry...



Shoobies are people from PA who go to the Jersey shore for the day with a shoebox with their lunch and what not..I was lucky enough that my grandparents had a beach-house when I was growing up so I'd just hit up Wawa for lunch..so I'm not a Shoobie..and I'm guessing you don't have a Long Island accent just because you ski at Hunter..


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Shoobies are people from PA who go to the Jersey shore for the day with a shoebox with their lunch and what not..I was lucky enough that my grandparents had a beach-house when I was growing up so I'd just hit up Wawa for lunch..so I'm not a Shoobie..and I'm guessing you don't have a Long Island accent just because you ski at Hunter..



Wow... Who died and made you Ski9....???  

Time for a safety break dude...


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

I was always told that Shoobies were the losers from PA that wear their shoes on the beach... usually with black socks..


----------



## campgottagopee (Jan 5, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> personal attacks will not be tolerated..Grow Up!!!



Sorry you fl that wa GSS, really. I can only take so much BS then I gotta spout off and call a spade a spade. The dude may be cool, but he's not showing it in here---just sayin'


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 5, 2009)

bump for stoke


----------



## Old Geezer (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Is your two year campaign to mudsling ever going to stop? What's your goal? To help close a ski area?



My goal? To post my opinion of PA ski areas.  And we'll now expand that to "...without being drowned out by someone throwing an internet temper tantrum because they disagree with the opinion."



ski9 said:


> Jeez, how many message boards do you go around trashing my hill?
> ...
> Oh, and I like your hill just fine, although they haven't bought a new snow gun since my last season pass...



I also think you're being a drama queen about this. You're making it sound like someone has been passing out handbills and waging an ongoing and never ending campaign of disinformation about the subject. In reality, I've posted this opinion four times (four postings) on ski chat websites, this time being the fourth. Three others were at PA Ski & Ride a few years ago. You flipped out there also. You haven't changed at all. Time to grow up and start acting civilized.  

I'm missing how the number of snow guns at Sugarbush have any bearing on this.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 5, 2009)

Old Geezer..stop trashing PA mountains..hey we want people to spend their money in PA...so we don't have to pay as much in taxes...and I really enjoy your trip reports and Ski9..you really should post some photo TRs of Sno mountain on here for PA stoke!!!!..


----------



## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Sorry you fl that wa GSS, really. I can only take so much BS then I gotta spout off and call a spade a spade. The dude may be cool, but he's not showing it in here---just sayin'



Hey, I got on the wrong side of people because I posted that the Sox, Bonds, and the recent Yankee accomplishments were all because of cheating. Greg told me I should shut up and not come to a New England MB and say such a thing. Ya know, like some people come to PA MB's and chuckle (or was it cackle?) about dipshit little PA places that claim to be as steep as anything up north. In fact, AZers called for the immediate firing of the marketing staff of said dipshit little ski area...turned out to be a 72 yr. old guy who volunteers his time, but off with his head anyway.

Kind of ironic how my mentioning the steroid abuse that ruined an era of baseball (an the Curse of the Babe) drew such ire, yet I'm the Angry Man.

And then the hyena mentality went crazy when I used hyperbole about throwing people off the lift for lighting up next to me. Ya know, sorta like saying there are seven thousand crappy skiers at WF. I guess I should say a trillion next time...ah, but then somebody would chirp that there probably hasn't even been a trillion skiers visits at WF in the years since opening.

Internet bully? Pfffftttt...I define internet bully as someone who abuses a friendship by joining flame wars on a MB that a person is held accountable for by a boss. Listen dmc: you sent June home crying more than once because of the grief she took in the office defending you and the endless wars you jumped into. You could have been a voice of reason, but couldn't help yourself. I'm sure you have no clue what I'm talking about. Your surely above ever having done that.

WF management? Someone wants to look into the real story? Hey, go right ahead. But the only reason WF management found a moral backbone and fessed up to the crappy little secret was after a NY superstar racer (and subsequent US Ski Teamer) had his inspection skis "accidentally" picked up. Eh, the dude was sure they were his and was really sorry...nothing negative meant about the innocent victim who is a fantastic kid and had no idea what had happened. If you want dates, the future US Ski Teamer crashed out that December day, as I recall. It was a GS...


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Hey, I got on the wrong side of people because I posted that the Sox, Bonds, and the recent Yankee accomplishments were all because of cheating. Greg told me I should shut up and not come to a New England MB and say such a thing. Ya know, like some people come to PA MB's and chuckle (or was it cackle?) about dipshit little PA places that claim to be as steep as anything up north. In fact, AZers called for the immediate firing of the marketing staff of said dipshit little ski area...turned out to be a 72 yr. old guy who volunteers his time, but off with his head anyway.
> 
> Kind of ironic how my mentioning the steroid abuse that ruined an era of baseball (an the Curse of the Babe) drew such ire, yet I'm the Angry Man.
> 
> ...



You're right.


----------



## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> I hear Sno is more like west Philly....
> 
> This is an enjoyable thread..  Keep it going...



Eh, just FYI, Hunter is closer to New York City than Sno is to West Philly. Not by much, though.


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Listen dmc: you sent June home crying more than once because of the grief she took in the office defending you and the endless wars you jumped into. You could have been a voice of reason, but couldn't help yourself. I'm sure you have no clue what I'm talking about. Your surely above ever having done that.



You have a very skewed sense of reality....

June(Ex Hunter Marketing Director) is a very close friend - even though she lives in Vegas now I see her all the time  - I visited her last October actually...

I'll ask her about it...  She's never mentioned it at all...  In fact we have fond memories of those days and talk about all the characters all the time..

I won't get into her professional issues with Hunter and and circumstances as to why she left... But it was not because of me....


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Eh, just FYI, Hunter is closer to New York City than Sno is to West Philly. Not by much, though.



Hey guess what....

I don't care...  

Now don't go for me cause you got your tail between your legs with everyone else...


----------



## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> You have a very skewed sense of reality....



Yeah, whatever. My memory is pretty good, though.


----------



## ski9 (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> Now don't go for me cause you got your tail between your legs with everyone else...



Whatever that means.


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Yeah, whatever.



You're right.


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Yeah, whatever. My memory is pretty good, though.



i just asked her... your wrong...


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg said:


> You're right.



Is there ever any doubt?  He's always right...


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> Is there ever any doubt?  He's always right...



Now you're right.


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Whatever that means.



It means you right...  as usual...


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg said:


> Now you're right.



No I'm left...Your right...  right?


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> It means you right...  as usual...



Correctomundo!



dmc said:


> No I'm left...Your right...  right?



Sometimes. Not always though. I kinda lean right, I guess.


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg said:


> Correctomundo!
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes. Not always though. I kinda lean right, I guess.



Fact is we're both probably pretty moderate...  I just got a thing for hippy chicks...


----------



## Old Geezer (Jan 5, 2009)

So where are we on the consensus of the good/better/best ski areas in Eastern PA?

Elk?
Camelback?
Jack Frost?
Sno?
Blue?
Blue Knob?

*before anyone gets their panties all bunched up, that list is in no particular order.  Yet.


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

dmc said:


> I just got a thing for hippy chicks...



White girls with dreads: Hot or not?


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

I was always into Elk for a day trip and Blue for night skiing...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg said:


> White girls with dreads: Hot or not?



depends.......


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg said:


> White girls with dreads: Hot or not?



depends on the soul...  And if they say yes...


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> depends.......



No wooks...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2009)

Old Geezer said:


> So where are we on the consensus of the good/better/best ski areas in Eastern PA?
> 
> Elk?
> Camelback?
> ...



There will never be a consensus, everyone has there favorites.  Lots of big time Sunday River fans on here and others who hate the place.  Almost everyone digs Sugarbush, but some thing it's over rated.  Even the starter of this thread's home mountain is a bit of a spark plug of debate (Whiteface).  There are several loyalists, but many who think the skiing is far superior in Northern VT.


----------



## dmc (Jan 5, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> There are several loyalists, but many who think the skiing is far superior in Northern VT.



well?  Isn't it?


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> There are several loyalists, but many who think the skiing is far superior in Northern VT.





dmc said:


> well?  Isn't it?



Who's gonna debate that one? New thread?


----------



## RootDKJ (Jan 5, 2009)

Old Geezer said:


> So where are we on the consensus of the good/better/best ski areas in Eastern PA?
> 
> Elk?
> Camelback?
> ...


Mountain Creek???:dunce:


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2009)

Greg said:


> Who's gonna debate that one? New thread?



I bet HPD would put up a good fight.  and probably get kinda grumpy in the act.

DO IT!!!!


----------



## Greg (Jan 5, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I bet HPD would put up a good fight.  and probably get kinda grumpy in the act.
> 
> DO IT!!!!



That was your comment. Come on. Get controversial! :lol:


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Jan 5, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Mountain Creek???:dunce:



The countryside looks and feels a lot like the Poconos up here but the skiing in the Poconos is better.


----------



## happyjack (Jan 6, 2009)

this thread is awesome.  anyone that reads it and can't chuckle needs to step away from the internetz for a while.


this thread is also timely...i'm looking to book a long weekend (thurs-sun) at the end of this month and was looking for something in NE PA...can drive there in 4-5 hours from annapolis, MD.  we have 2 kids (8 & 6) who are in their 2nd full season of skiing (we got 12 days on skis last year, including 4 days at bromley/magic, and just 2 days the year before).

primary requirements for our trip:  minimal ice!  minimal crowds!  above average amenities/lodging.  terrain is not a priority at this point since the kids are just starting to tackle low intermediates.

any suggestions will be appreciated!



Old Geezer said:


> So where are we on the consensus of the good/better/best ski areas in Eastern PA?
> 
> Elk?
> Camelback?
> ...



i never skiied sno or blue...my experience with the others was 20 years ago, so about all i really remember is the terrain...i've skiied blue knob (technically it's in west PA) 8-10 times and elk twice...feel pretty confident in saying those would be the top 2 for terrain.  if blue knob got elk's snow i think it would win hands down.  not sure where blue stacks up with those.


thanks in advance for any trip recs.

~jack


----------



## dmc (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> i never skiied sno or blue...my experience with the others was 20 years ago, so about all i really remember is the terrain..



Word of advice...   
Don't light up a butt on the chair at Sno without first checking your life insurance...
Don't piss off anyone at Blue - they could be related to Ski Patrol...


----------



## happyjack (Jan 6, 2009)

dmc said:


> Word of advice...
> Don't light up a butt on the chair at Sno without first checking your life insurance...
> Don't piss off anyone at Blue - they could be related to Ski Patrol...




haha!  so at which place would i feel most at home skiing in acid-washed jeans? :razz:


----------



## dmc (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> haha!  so at which place would i feel most at home skiing in acid-washed jeans? :razz:



Camelback....


----------



## happyjack (Jan 6, 2009)

dmc said:


> Camelback....



yeah...that seems to match my recollections of my one trip there back in the 80s.  couldn't believe the number of dudes in leather jackets and jeans.  just proves that stereotypes are often rooted in fact.


----------



## trtaylor (Jan 6, 2009)

Lodging is probably Elk's biggest weakness. At least for your criteria.

Elk area info



happyjack said:


> this thread is awesome.  anyone that reads it and can't chuckle needs to step away from the internetz for a while.
> 
> 
> this thread is also timely...i'm looking to book a long weekend (thurs-sun) at the end of this month and was looking for something in NE PA...can drive there in 4-5 hours from annapolis, MD.  we have 2 kids (8 & 6) who are in their 2nd full season of skiing (we got 12 days on skis last year, including 4 days at bromley/magic, and just 2 days the year before).
> ...


----------



## legalskier (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> i'm looking to book a long weekend (thurs-sun) at the end of this month and was looking for something in NE PA...can drive there in 4-5 hours from annapolis, MD.  we have 2 kids (8 & 6) who are in their 2nd full season of skiing....primary requirements for our trip:  minimal ice!  minimal crowds!  above average amenities/lodging.  terrain is not a priority at this point since the kids are just starting to tackle low intermediates.~jack



Given your requirements, you might do Blue on Thursday, avoiding weekend crowds and starting at the southernmost large area. It also has a terrific snowtubing area at the base that my kids love. On Friday you could head further north to another area one would avoid on weekends, like Camelback or JF/BB. You also might check out Shawnee, which would be fine for the kids with its long, gentle runs. My kids liked the turtle pond at the base. On the weekend the largest areas with the fewest crowds and most varied terrain would be Sno and Elk, but there also is Alpine, a friendly smaller mountain that rarely gets crowded. Check out their websites too–some of these areas offer decent deals/discounts (some of which are online only); others offer half day options, like Blue and Shawnee.


----------



## happyjack (Jan 6, 2009)

thanks for the recs so far...

i'd rather stay in one place than trek around...packing and re-packing the car with 2 young kids being the  sweet fun that it is.  I was thinking something near elk and sno, so we could get a day trip to each.

speaking of elk...I don't have many detailed recollections of specific trails.  I remember it as an intermediate-plus type of mountain...but i'm wondering if there are enough options for the kids there?  are there some easier intermediates they could handle?  I noticed on the trail map that several intermediates funnel into the bowl...I don't even remember this bowl...doable for solid wedge turn kids?


----------



## TeleMac (Jan 6, 2009)

*Elk*

Conditions last Friday and Saturday (1/2-3) were decent due to Elk's excellent grooming. The fact remains that fully 1/2 the mountain remains closed and what is open became quite icy by 2 PM.  Elk needs new snow and continued cold before it will improve to its usual January form.  Lift lines were minimal; lighter on Saturday than Friday.  Go figure.    

By the way: (a) there is no "bowl".  Rather, after the top 2/3s of the mountain, there are a series of wide open, lightly graded slopes back to the lifts; (b) the terrain park is minuscule; (c) there is no night life for kids aside from night skiing; (d) for sake of variety and to break up the trip, you would do well to stop at Blue or Sno on your drive north from MD.      

All that said, Elk maybe the best choice among a not so good lot this winter.


----------



## ski9 (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> thanks for the recs so far...
> 
> i'd rather stay in one place than trek around...packing and re-packing the car with 2 young kids being the  sweet fun that it is.  I was thinking something near elk and sno, so we could get a day trip to each.
> 
> speaking of elk...I don't have many detailed recollections of specific trails.  I remember it as an intermediate-plus type of mountain...but i'm wondering if there are enough options for the kids there?  are there some easier intermediates they could handle?  I noticed on the trail map that several intermediates funnel into the bowl...I don't even remember this bowl...doable for solid wedge turn kids?



You'd get better and more timely feedback at     http://paskiandride.com

Be prepared to wade through suggestions about the best rails and biggest jumps, but there are lots of families who post regularly. 

Or you could just travel a bit further to Hunter and dodge the cigarette butts they throw at group lessons from the lift. Just think of it as confetti and they are showing their love...


----------



## happyjack (Jan 6, 2009)

thanks guys...

i'm hoping that booking something for the last weekend in january will give mother nature sometime to do her thing.

your comment on the "bowl" makes sense...it was confusing to see it on the map.  so how difficult would you rate trails like mahican, lenape and wissahickon...on a scale for 8 & 6 year old kids?

as for variety...i guess if we stay in scranton, it's pretty convenient for accessing most of those areas for daytripping?

and as for night-life...if the lodging has a pool that's all my kids need.  i full day skiing usually has them pretty worn out.

and i did post at the skipa forum...

thx!


----------



## dmc (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> as for variety...i guess if we stay in scranton, it's pretty convenient for accessing most of those areas for daytripping?



Say hi to Jim, Pam and Dwight...


----------



## ski9 (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> thanks guys...
> 
> i'm hoping that booking something for the last weekend in january will give mother nature sometime to do her thing.
> 
> ...



http://www.snovacations.com/

Both of the closest hotels to Sno have indoor pools. Skiing at Jack Frost, Camelback, and Elk are all within a half hour, or so. 

To add: there's also a large movie theatre and high-end outlet mall next to the hotel.


----------



## happyjack (Jan 6, 2009)

dmc said:


> Say hi to Jim, Pam and Dwight...



it's all about creed.


----------



## ski9 (Jan 6, 2009)

happyjack said:


> it's all about creed.



Just to add, Jack, I'd seriously consider crowd size over terrain because of the little ones, especially since you have two. Camelback may have some wide, easy trails, but if the weather's nice, kids turn into sitting ducks. My youngest was on the CB race team and I worried about her every day when she was little. 

Teaching kids is so much easier when they can safely traverse an easy blue---easier than them trying to survive a busy green circle.

Alpine is an awesome hill for families, as long as it's not a holiday. Tanglwood reopened this season and is a good possibility, although you might get bored pretty quick---and I can't think of any indoor pools around here. Their non-detachable wood seat double chairs are also a problem---kids get whacked a lot.

Sno will have all it's green and blue terrain open by this weekend, despite whatever it's ridiculously slow to update website says.


----------



## campgottagopee (Jan 7, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Hey, I got on the wrong side of people because I posted that the Sox, Bonds, and the recent Yankee accomplishments were all because of cheating. Greg told me I should shut up and not come to a New England MB and say such a thing. Ya know, like some people come to PA MB's and chuckle (or was it cackle?) about dipshit little PA places that claim to be as steep as anything up north. In fact, AZers called for the immediate firing of the marketing staff of said dipshit little ski area...turned out to be a 72 yr. old guy who volunteers his time, but off with his head anyway.
> 
> Kind of ironic how my mentioning the steroid abuse that ruined an era of baseball (an the Curse of the Babe) drew such ire, yet I'm the Angry Man.
> 
> ...





campgottagopee said:


> Sorry you fl that wa GSS, really. I can only take so much BS then I gotta spout off and call a spade a spade. The dude may be cool, but he's not showing it in here---just sayin'



Still stickin with this one


----------



## TeleMac (Jan 7, 2009)

*Elk*

Final words --  

"blues" like Mahican are very mellow cruisers that wend their way through the woods with one or two minor pitches to give the kids a thrill.  

It is exactly 20 miles (and about 25 minutes) between the hotels in Clarks Summit and Elk.   Most area hotels offer ski packages so be sure to ask about tickets. 

A reminder for future years that 4th (& 5th) graders with a Pa Passport ski free (3 free days at each area during non-holdays).  Vt has a similar program for 5th graders only.


----------



## happyjack (Jan 7, 2009)

ski9 - i hear ya on the crowds...that's exactly why i try to avoid the bigger resorts.  as long as i can find a hill with 4-5 different runs that challange the kids enough so they don't get bored, then we're good to go.

telemac - that's EXACTLY what i wanted to hear about elk's blues!  and i've already been looking at clark's summit lodging and found a few places with packages.  will make some calls over the next couple of days to see if any of them are negotiating.

i think our plan will be to ski sno on friday and elk on saturday.  we'll play sunday by ear...need to be on the road toward home around 3:00 or so...may decide to head south in the morning and hit jack frost or blue...unless elk turns out to be too great to pass up again, or that where our package lift tickets send us.

great stuff on the PA passport...my son will be a 4th grader next year.

az rules...thanks guys!

~jack


----------



## TeleMac (Jan 7, 2009)

*Elk v. Blue*

IMHO Blue is a local hill, and not a destination worthy of a stop on your way home from Elk or Sno.  As GSS and ski9 have often noted, it IS a place for mach speed cruising, teens, park, large crowds on the weekends, talking smack, "Hollywood" patrollers,etc.  Maybe if the kids were a bit older, but even then . . . .


----------



## happyjack (Jan 7, 2009)

thanks for the advice on blue.  

maybe we'll just stick to elk and sno...that seems to be where the package deals are anyway.


----------



## 4aprice (Jan 7, 2009)

Hit Camelback on Sunday AM on your way back home.  Sunday mornings are generally never mobbed til about 11.  By that time you can be winding down a good morning of 20+ runs.  100% of the mountain is open.  The morning ticket will let you ski 8:30 - 12:30.  After you can hit the road and be about an hour closer to your home.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 7, 2009)

TeleMac said:


> IMHO Blue is a local hill, and not a destination worthy of a stop on your way home from Elk or Sno.  As GSS and ski9 have often noted, it IS a place for mach speed cruising, teens, park, large crowds on the weekends, talking smack, "Hollywood" patrollers,etc.  Maybe if the kids were a bit older, but even then . . . .




huh??? Blue is better than Sno and Elk...plus they have the Poconos coldest 6-pack..I see alot of Maryland plates at Blue..


----------



## happyjack (Jan 8, 2009)

i didn't intepret telemac's post as blue being "less good" than elk or sno.  given that i have 2 kids who are just working their way onto low intermediates, i think he was saying the blue's scene (sounds like maybe a younger and potentially more aggressive crowd) would not be as "friendly" for the kids.

don't think he was tryin' to harsh your blue steeze...:lol:


----------



## TeleMac (Jan 8, 2009)

Correct.  My comments were geared to the very specific facts at hand.  Blue has its place.  Peace.


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## skicone (Jan 9, 2009)

Jack, I live and ski in NEPA. and raised my family to be skiers. There is NO WAY I would subject my kids to the crowds at the Pocono resorts ( Camelback, JFBB, etc.) and would certainly ski at Elk, rather than Sno. If you stay in Clarks Summit, you can access both areas with a 20-25 min. drive. Elk expanded their trail system the last few years and created some nice cruisers. We have not received enough snow this winter to create natural moguls, so these runs should be groomed and flat. Perfect for your situation. Elk is better for crowds because it is an hour further from the metropolitan areas. Skied at Sno last Tuesday night and it was icy. Wednesday it rained heavily, and froze yesterday and today. So my guess is you'll encounter " Pennslyvania Powder" commonly known as " dust on crust". Restaurants, movies, malls are all available in the Clarks Summit area. PM me if you want more details.


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## happyjack (Jan 9, 2009)

skicone - thanks for the info.  i've got a few more weeks until the trip...1/29 - 2/1...so hopefully there will be lots more snow at elk by then.

also, i keep forgetting to ask...when you all talk about "the crowds" and "long lift lines" at these areas, how does that actually translate into wait time?

on a weekend at liberty, the longest lines (always the ones that service the green circles) can easily be 20 minutes.  and the hill is small that even my kids and can make a run in less than 10 minutes.  now that we have them skiing blues, we can hit the backside which means maybe a 10 minute wait for a little longer run.

do you guys see anything like that at elk or sno or a "normal" weekend?

thanks!


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## skicone (Jan 9, 2009)

30 -45 minute wait at base lifts, but the bigger problem is the overcrowding on the slopes. The inability of your kids to protect themselves and avoid being run over is a larger concern.


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## ski9 (Jan 9, 2009)

skicone said:


> 30 -45 minute wait at base lifts, but the bigger problem is the overcrowding on the slopes. The inability of your kids to protect themselves and avoid being run over is a larger concern.



Again, I agree with your mention of the "larger concern". Other than for races, I don't ski at Elk on weekends, but it always seemed pretty crazy because of what we're used to. Sno usually has a dozen empty chairs between people until noon on weekends, then maybe a couple chair wait on the Shuttle lift, but no wait at the other lifts. Last Sat/Sun, which was the climax of a busy holiday period), there were less than 100 cars in the lot and no buses until noon. Great for us, but not great for the hill...

Every place was icy when it was freezing rain Tuesday night, including Elk. Sno was closed Wednesday because of the ice storm (as were all the schools), but hit their guns hard afterward. In Northeast PA, natural snow is more PR for people in the cities to come ski, since we get so little and a cat will groom an 8" snowfall into a 1/4" base layer in one pass. I only had time for three runs this morning, but Sno's NF was in great shape. I imagine Elk was, too.

Blue does have the two best top to bottom diamonds in PA, but even I'm scared of the crowds and GSS using me as a slalom pole (a Break-A-Way pole, that is)...


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## TeleMac (Jan 9, 2009)

*crowds at Elk*

Never a crowd first thing in the AM (8 opening until 11).  There was no  crowd last Saturday (strange b/c it was more crowded on Friday).  Usually it is crowded on the two doubles that leave from the lodge and then only in the hours right after lunch.  The quad and double over lower Tunk are your best bets and never have more than a 5-8 minute wait.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 9, 2009)

are the lifts at Elk still wicked slow???


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## campgottagopee (Jan 10, 2009)

Check out the PM I got from ski9

"You're just a little bitch, aren't you? Days later and you're still in 'pile on' mode. Tool."

Yeah, I'm thinkin he's a tough guy......whahahahhabaahahahahahahahaa


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 10, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Check out the PM I got from ski9
> 
> "You're just a little bitch, aren't you? Days later and you're still in 'pile on' mode. Tool."
> 
> Yeah, I'm thinkin he's a tough guy......whahahahhabaahahahahahahahaa




Campgottagopee..I think you need a timeout..reposting PMs is just lowclass in my opinion..


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## campgottagopee (Jan 10, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Campgottagopee..I think you need a timeout..reposting PMs is just lowclass in my opinion..



That's your opinion and your entitled to it-----if showing what kind of person ski 9 is makes me lowclass than I can live with that.


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## dmc (Jan 10, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> That's your opinion and your entitled to it-----if showing what kind of person ski 9 is makes me lowclass than I can live with that.



I think we all know what he's all about..


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## twinplanx (Jan 10, 2009)

Maybe GSS is confusing class w/ post-count ?  No one has ever PM'ed  me so I must be "uber-low-class"


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 10, 2009)

PMs are personal messages..not to be shared with the rest of the forum..guys quit giving Ski9 a hard time..most of you don't even live in PA...and I feel like HighPeaksDrifter was being a troll to even ask about PA skiing.  Why would somebody who skis at a mountain with more vert than almost every resort in the world care about PA...he was either baiting me of Ski9..


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## twinplanx (Jan 10, 2009)

HPD seems legit to me.  Steeze why don't you take a timeout from precious Blue and check out Elk for a day?:smash: Now who's the troll:blink:


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## campgottagopee (Jan 10, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> PMs are personal messages..not to be shared with the rest of the forum..guys quit giving Ski9 a hard time..most of you don't even live in PA...and I feel like HighPeaksDrifter was being a troll to even ask about PA skiing.  Why would somebody who skis at a mountain with more vert than almost every resort in the world care about PA...he was either baiting me of Ski9..



2 things

1. "Personal" is just that and what a person chooses to do with his/her PM, IMHO, would be up to them.

2. Re-read HPD's original post and tell me where he was being a troll. To me the thread started out interesting (i gave what info i had) and was something to talk about other than bumps.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 10, 2009)

twinplanx said:


> HPD seems legit to me.  Steeze why don't you take a timeout from precious Blue and check out Elk for a day?:smash: Now who's the troll:blink:



I might check out Elk sometime this season..especially after reading Moe Ghouls report over on PASR...


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## twinplanx (Jan 10, 2009)

I haven't skied there in years.  Always had a blast.  Don't recall the lifts really being that slow.  It's tuff(while swinging in a slow chair)but try to keep in mind that slow chairs reduce skier volume


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 10, 2009)

twinplanx said:


> I haven't skied there in years.  Always had a blast.  Don't recall the lifts really being that slow.  It's tuff(while swinging in a slow chair)but try to keep in mind that slow chairs reduce skier volume




I'm just so used to High Speed lifts..it's 2009..they need a 6-pack or high speed quad..and actually a fixed grip quad has the same lift capacity as a high speed detachable quad..the chairs are just spaced out double as far..


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## twinplanx (Jan 10, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'm just so used to High Speed lifts..it's 2009..they need a 6-pack or high speed quad..and actually a fixed grip quad has the same lift capacity as a high speed detachable quad..the chairs are just spaced out double as far..



Ok but it is a bit further from any "urban" area so that should work out in favor of reduced skiers?:argue:


Damn! I just read the other 15 pages of this thread...And consider it time well spent, GSS grabs popcorn,  some one called it a "summer thread".  Good stuff


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## campgottagopee (Jan 10, 2009)

I'd like to hit Elk up again myself----from what I remember the place skied a lot like Greek and it's not too far from here---mayde 1.5hr drive


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jan 10, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> PMs are personal messages..not to be shared with the rest of the forum..guys quit giving Ski9 a hard time..most of you don't even live in PA...and I feel like HighPeaksDrifter was being a troll to even ask about PA skiing.  Why would somebody who skis at a mountain with more vert than almost every resort in the world care about PA...he was either baiting me of Ski9..



Everytime I try to give you the benefit of the doubt you come up with something like this. I can think of many things that would piss you off if I wanted to bait you. You are easy cause you're an open book on this forum.

In all honesty I was not baiting you or Ski9. I use to start alot of good threads. I can't come up with any lately. I was just given this a shot cause so many PA skiers have come to AZ.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 10, 2009)

So many people from PA ski Whiteface because they don't know that across Lake Champlain..it snows double as much..


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## ski9 (Jan 10, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> 2 things
> 
> 1. "Personal" is just that and what a person chooses to do with his/her PM, IMHO, would be up to them.
> 
> 2. Re-read HPD's original post and tell me where he was being a troll. To me the thread started out interesting (i gave what info i had) and was something to talk about other than bumps.



I don't care that you post a PM in which I call you a little bitch for acting tough by piling on in a thread. Internet bully? Pfffttt...you, dude, come off as that kid standing next to a fight just waiting for the chance to kick whomever is on the ground. 

As a reminder, this is what I posted that turned so many of you hostile: "Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too."

Man, talk about sensitive! I'm not an Elk fan and I'm not a WF fan. I was saying, in a flippant way, that where you ski doesn't make you a great skier. In fact, my vote for the greatest non-pro/non-FIS skier in the entire Northeast lives in Reading, PA...anyone here ever raced Bernie?

Oh, and jeez dmc, weren't these your rules on your old, dead MB?

- Please, no flames or battles!
- Please show respect to individuals by showing tolerance!
(If you don't have something nice to say - just blow off the thread!)
- Please ignore trolls from other Mountains.
- Remember - some things are better said in person or via Email.

Last thing: yeah I have an opinion about steroids ruining baseball, people who sit down next to you and light cigarettes (something that kills people), and management of a ski area that didn't want bad press for stolen skis...other people on this MB rag about a thousand things...but a core group here wants me to f*ck off...since it includes the owner, I'll go ahead and quit posting. I believe in skiing small hills--as well big ones--and hangin' with people who don't thrive in circle jerk attacks to make themselves feel tough. Angry man? Jeez, this core group was too busy screaming to see who were the angry ones.

So smoke away. Flick your butts at who you want. Root for cheaters. Hate on small hills. Be understanding of ski thieves. And when some odd guy uses your MB for a ski date, make sure to turn on him and beat him to death instead of finding it funny and seeing if he ended up with a fat chick with an awesome personality.

F*cking haters, man.


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## dmc (Jan 10, 2009)

Nice....

My dead msg board is doing just fine that - I run it with an iron fist...   I don't F around...
I would've banned you - no questions asked the minute you started your game...


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2009)

ski9 said:


> I don't care that you post a PM in which I call you a little bitch for acting tough by piling on in a thread. Internet bully? Pfffttt...you, dude, come off as that kid standing next to a fight just waiting for the chance to kick whomever is on the ground.
> 
> As a reminder, this is what I posted that turned so many of you hostile: "Hmmm...I'd say there were more sh*tty skiers at WF than at Elk on a typical weekend....maybe 7000 more? Was your point to quality or quantity? I tried to answer both. Last time we raced at WF, someone stole one of the kid's skis. Locals, I guess. But that happens here, too."
> 
> ...



You're right.


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## dmc (Jan 10, 2009)

Greg said:


> You're right.



Was there any doubt...?


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## twinplanx (Jan 10, 2009)

WoW! who invited this 6(ski)9 homo anyway?  Nice lil' pic of your harem there.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jan 10, 2009)

Just peeked in this thread. I don't don't know what assy testosterone smells like, but this thread is coming real close to capturing its essence.


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## gorgonzola (Jan 11, 2009)

^ hahaha good ole pennsyltucky assy testoterone!

oh and i prefer blue - best balance of terrain, snowmaking, grooming, and it happens to be the closest to home. i haven't skiid elk in years and don't bother due to snowmaking. its a bit of a hall from anywhere and if i'm in the car packed with 3 kids i figure i might as well make sure the ipods and ds's are fully charge and hit ny or southern vt. it does ski and have a vibe - maybe its the slow lifts that make everyone laid back - like greek peak but i like greek way better.

for a family i think all the pokey places experience is pretty much the same although i haven't skiid sno


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## Old Geezer (Jan 11, 2009)

ski9 said:


> Man, talk about sensitive!
> ...
> people who don't thrive in .... attacks to make themselves feel tough


Oh, the irony.

Ski-9's favorite hill, Sno Mtn, had an incident where police and fire crews and ambulances were dispatched for a lift that stopped working for 40 minutes this weekend.  Luckily no injuries. Newspaper Link (scroll to bottom). The scuttlebutt I heard from the locals was "you want to spend money on maintenance before this sort of thing happens...".  I wish Ski-9 was still here to give us his spin on what really happened.


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## dmc (Jan 11, 2009)

Old Geezer said:


> I wish Ski-9 was still here to give us his spin on what really happened.



What ever that is... I bet it's going to be right.


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## Old Geezer (Jan 11, 2009)

dmc said:


> Old Geezer said:
> 
> 
> > I wish Ski-9 was still here to give us his spin on what really happened.
> ...


I meant to say, because it's free entertainment, I wish ...


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