# The Average Skier is the Enemy!



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

[rant]

I've been in a major funk after the realization that our little local hill will likely be closing either after this weekend or next, despite enough snow to last well into April. I certainly can't blame them. If skier visits are dropping off than it's not good business sense to continue to operate at a loss. It's essentially just a local feeder hill and the "average" skier demographic down here is most likely looking towards warm weather activities already. The fact that Killington is shutting off the lights in less than 4 weeks is another, perhaps even more disturbing example.

Obviously AZ represents the more passionate skier demographic and some of us will ski even after lift serviced is done. It's kind of ironic though that the "average" skier seems to be the one that keeps the industry afloat financially despite being far less passionate. Yet, ski area/resorts are forced to cater to them. They are the reason for a lot of things that many of the die hards don't like - overgrooming of trails, early closures, etc.

*They *are the enemy!



I guess the bigger question is what can we do about it? Probably nothing. The only chance is to hope the number of truly passionate skiers somehow increases. Once the temps warm and the snow softens everywhere, we'll be into one of the most enjoyable part of the season - soft snow, warm temps, sunny skies. Is there any way to get skiers to come out and enjoy spring on the slopes more? Was it always like this, or has the average skier gone soft? Am I just being pissy?

[/rant]


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2008)

Perhaps having bikini contests every day the temp is north of 40 in the spring. :lol:


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Perhaps having bikini contests every day the temp is north of 40 in the spring. :lol:



Good one! :lol: Nice way to think outside the box. What else ya got?


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 18, 2008)

But alot of people here on AZ are winding down as well..I've accepted the fact that the local ski hills close when there's still great coverage..everybodies dying to ski in November and December on a couple icy trails but this time of year people are in spring mode.  Skiing to most people is a winter activity..not a lifestyle.  We're lucky that alot of places in the east like Belleayre, Mount Snow, Sugarbush, Stowe, Sunday River, Wildcat, and Sugarloaf will be open until late April or even early May..

I know some passionate skiers who are married with kids and after neglecting their families all winter..their wives have told them their ski season is over..some people are into yard work and others golf..

If I owned Blue mountain..I'd stock pile snow on one or two trails adjacent to the lifts ala Superstar in the 90s...and offer skiing into May..even if it was just limited hours or days..But there's no way in hell I'd want to own a PA ski area..too risky..


----------



## o3jeff (Mar 18, 2008)

How about for the seaon pass holders? If we see snow and paid the money up front don't the owe it to us to be open?


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 18, 2008)

i was thinking about this on my last trip this past weekend to Okemo as i saw the amount of skiers dwindle on the sunday.  in fact, the group i was with decided to quit at about 2:00 and get a head start home in spite of the weather being clear.  we skied and snowboarded hard enough but i was a little dismayed at their lack of dedication......

part of the issue is that the "average" skier/snowboarder doesn;t exactly enjoy "spring conditions" and the mixed bag it brings.  now this weekend was hardly a bad one.  it could have been worse.  we got the whole array of weather conditions.  atleast the base was pretty thick.  i just couldn;t help but think about why the mountain was so empty.  i guess it;s always emptier on sundays.

i don;t know the answer to it.  for some reason, i;d rather be skiing in sub 32 degree temps on hard pack than bashing through soft mushy snow.  maybe i had the wrong skis on.  i had my shortish narrow east coast skis and it was alot of work keeping them focused on the lower mountain.  on my next trip to stratton in a couple of weeks, i might break out my west coast skis that seem to excel in crud busting.....hope there are not too many bare spots....


----------



## David Metsky (Mar 18, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> How about for the seaon pass holders? If we see snow and paid the money up front don't the owe it to us to be open?



No.  But you retain the right not to buy a season's pass next year.

Buy a pair of skins and keep skiing.


----------



## KingM (Mar 18, 2008)

I agree with some, but not all of your premise.



> It's kind of ironic though that the "average" skier seems to be the one that keeps the industry afloat financially despite being far less passionate. Yet, ski area/resorts are forced to cater to them. They are the reason for a lot of things that many of the die hards don't like - overgrooming of trails, early closures, etc.



The first part, yes, but if you go to the mountain on any given day, 80% of the skiers are skiing on 20% of the terrain. Blacks, moguls, woods, etc. are all overrepresented based on what the majority of the skiers are looking for. Given where the skiers congregate, I think we're lucky that more of the mountain isn't given over to big, wide blues and greens groomed to within an inch of their lives.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> How about for the seaon pass holders? If we see snow and paid the money up front don't the owe it to us to be open?




See, I think that's the primary problem.  The only one's out skiing are season pass holders.

If I were a mountain ops manager, I'd probably try and preserve costs by opening only on weekends from Easter on and probably reduce the schedule in general to say five days after mid - march.


But......have a kick ass contest every Saturday and Sunday.

All day ticket holders are entered into a raffle, 500 tickets minimum.  The winning ticket gets a free season pass for the following season.  If there's 500 tickets sold on each day, a season pass per day will be given away.  If not then 1 for the weekend.  Heck you might even get a few season pass holders buying a day ticket.  500-1 is not great odds, but you never know.  At the very least it will probably get season pass holders to bring along a friend skiing for the day.

It's the day ticket money that's needed for a place to stay open in the spring.


----------



## SKIQUATTRO (Mar 18, 2008)

for us its time....durning the winter there arent sports for our 5yrs old, but in the spring its soccer and Tball on the weekends...and Easter being early this year I think has folks already in the "spring" mood...dont discount gas prices, that's swaying alot of folks as well ..... I'll still grab a day here or there, but cant foresee anymore than 1 more day....


----------



## bvibert (Mar 18, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread, I'm too bummed with the prospect of my local hill closing soon to concentrate on reading a whole lot.  Sundown is like a second home to me, especially this season.  I'm really going to miss going there to ski _and_ work.


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 18, 2008)

i agree.  i;d sum up my experience at Okemo this weekend as "plain vanilla".  all the trails skied the same and they were all basically cruiser trails.   it was actually a real confidence booster to some of the weaker skier/riders in our group.  they did the black trails as well as the blues and greens.

well then again, Okemo is one of the few ski resorts that seems to be reporting a profit and risin attendence so they must be doing something right....


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 18, 2008)

The vast majority of AZers are average skiers, but I guess I'll stay off that.

I think tailgate parties in the parking lot are alot of fun in spring. Ski areas usually don't promote them cause they want you siting on their deck buying their beer and food. If they did some sort of tailgate tie in it might bring more people out longer. Sunshine, warm temps, family & friends, music, pinic atmosphere, but first buy the lift ticket.


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> The vast majority of AZers are average skiers, but I guess I'll stay off that.



Pretty broad brush stroke there, HPD. And exactly how do you know this?

Of course this thread was started with tongue in cheek. Also, by "average" I meant based on skier days, length of season, etc., not ability. I believe an intermediate or even beginner skier from a technique standpoint can be more passionate than some more advanced skiers...


----------



## Vortex (Mar 18, 2008)

The average skier is repsonsiblie for day tickets, but many resorts with land ....the focus is going  after people who can buy big houses.   Even better if you can make it have a 4 season feel.

 Staying open gives folks a reason to buy a place ie enjoy a long season.


----------



## SkiDork (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg - didn't yet read every reply, but here's my 2 cents...

Skiing like any other sport is seasonal.

People that love to play baseball aren't playing it during the winter.  But they start it up in the spring.

Same with football - its a fall sport.

Skiing is a winter sport, and people just think of doing it in winter.

Now, OTOH - lets look at Basketball.   That a winter sport, but people play it all year round.

So whats the diff between skiing and Basketball?


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> Pretty broad brush stroke there, HPD. And exactly how do you know this?
> 
> Of course this thread was started with tongue in cheek. Also, by "average" I meant based on skier days, length of season, etc., not ability. I believe an intermediate or even beginner skier from a technique standpoint can be more passionate than some more advanced skiers...




I wasn't talking about ability at all.

My neighbor belongs to a country club and is a 5 handicap.
My friend plays in a Friday after work golf league and is a 17 handicap.
My cousin plays whenever he can get away from the family and doesn't have a handicap.
The local pro, who gives lessons to earn his living is not an average golfer, IMNHO the first 3 are.

Some guys have more opportunity, money, ability, etc., but they're in it for recreation.

Glen Planke said it best, "Recreational skiing isn't a sport, it's a great past time".


----------



## Paul (Mar 18, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> Greg - didn't yet read every reply, but here's my 2 cents...
> 
> Skiing like any other sport is seasonal.
> 
> ...



Basketball sucks?


----------



## SkiDork (Mar 18, 2008)

Paul said:


> Basketball sucks?



OK, kinda agree with this, especially since the Knicks suck...  And I'm not really interested in March Madness as much as some are...


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 18, 2008)

part of the problem is that us "expert" skiers tend to not buy food at the lodges or rentals.  we only ski on discount tickets where possible.  

it's the "regular" skiers keep the mountain going.  they haven't the appreciation for spring conditions....

what could be done?  maybe some aggressive marketing where they have a combo lift ticket/rental and food voucher?  discount season passes that are good for next season?  

ugh....i said the word marketing which implies costing the ski resort money....


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I wasn't talking about ability at all.
> 
> My neighbor belongs to a country club and is a 5 handicap.
> My friend plays in a Friday after work golf league and is a 17 handicap.
> ...



I think we're arguing semantics here, HPD. By "average", I meant the average skier demographic - the one that accounts for the majority of skier visits. I don't have hard data so maybe I'm the one painting with a broad brush, but I would imagine it's the sub 10 days per season skier who skis primarily from late December to late February.

But I think you knew what I meant.....


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't don't see how having a resort giving back revenue they MIGHT have made in peak season by being open with little business in late April and May helps anybody. Convincing the golf courses to not open till the middle of May would help. 

The cost of gas and insurance has skyrocketed in the last few years, many resorts make money on the weekends/holidays but give it back during the week. IMHO if the trend continues I suspect some resorts might close during the week to survive.

...wonder if golf courses are opening earlier than they did 10 years ago.


----------



## wa-loaf (Mar 18, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Perhaps having bikini contests every day the temp is north of 40 in the spring. :lol:



You could have a spring concert series, ala Reggae Weekend at Sugarloaf, but just do it every weekend all spring. Mix up the type of music each weekend. The party atmosphere would certainly draw a lot of people, who may not even be skiing. The money you make on booze, concessions, and lodging might help keep the lifts running for the hardcore skiers.


----------



## bobbutts (Mar 18, 2008)

everything has become too fancy and expensive
to run a place you need a small army of staff and a large amount of expensive energy + the energy to stockpile snow.  

Still the main difference is that Killington is out of the game, they were pretty much the perfect place in NE for spring skiing.


----------



## hiroto (Mar 18, 2008)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> for us its time....durning the winter there arent sports for our 5yrs old, but in the spring its soccer and Tball on the weekends...and Easter being early this year I think has folks already in the "spring" mood...dont discount gas prices, that's swaying alot of folks as well ..... I'll still grab a day here or there, but cant foresee anymore than 1 more day....



Same here.  My son's soccer team is starting practice this week and games will kick in a few weeks.   Spring sports are *THE ENEMY* of spring skiing.


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 18, 2008)

Bob R said:


> The average skier is repsonsiblie for day tickets, but many resorts with land ....the focus is going  after people who can buy big houses.   Even better if you can make it have a 4 season feel.
> 
> Staying open gives folks a reason to buy a place ie enjoy a long season.



I agree with you that for many resorts the money is in real estate development. However, I think those people are on the opposite end of the demographic spectrum that Greg is trying to tap into.


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> But I think you knew what I meant.....



Yeah, but you know that this type of thread is right in my wheelhouse. It's a thread that provokes thought and debate and I like to try and add a little fodder to the conversation.


----------



## WWF-VT (Mar 18, 2008)

hiroto said:


> My son's soccer team is starting practice this week and games will kick in a few weeks.   Spring sports are *THE ENEMY* of spring skiing.



My two kids play soccer and I coach and the season starts the first weekend in April.  Limits the chance of our family of four ( season pass holders) getting  to VT for a weekend


----------



## MommaBear (Mar 18, 2008)

hiroto said:


> Same here.  My son's soccer team is starting practice this week and games will kick in a few weeks.   Spring sports are *THE ENEMY* of spring skiing.



Same here, too.  I think THE KIDS are THE ENEMY.  My older two have always been die hard skiers - other families head to Florida for April break, but we've ALWAYS gone to Killington.  This year, baseball and lacrosse are already happening and their focus has turned to those.  They want to be done with skiing for the year.  And unless we find someone to babysit the next few weekends, that means my husband and I are done for the season.  That sucks.  Spring sports used to start around April vacation week, now they start a good month earlier.  :-(


----------



## happyjack (Mar 18, 2008)

as an average skier i'm trying to do my part!  i'm getting in a car after working 8 hours on thursday to drive 8 hours from baltimore to londonderry.  my son will be missing lacrosse practice thursday and a tournament on saturday just so we can get three more days on the snow and i can reach my goal of 12 days skiing this year.

i think the economy is gonna play havoc with many expensive recreation activities.  golf has already seen a notable decline since it's peak 4-5 years ago.  i'm already seeing lots of ads from the $80-$100 daily fees courses offering discounted seasonal memberships.


----------



## Vortex (Mar 18, 2008)

HPD.  I think day skeirs matter till Feb vacation as mentioned. Cash flow. 

  Resorts stay open to sell real estate/lodging/ food /drinks/ gear and season passes.  Some resorts survive without the average skier as thier core base.

I guess its my feeling that the average skier is a day skier.  JMO


----------



## SIKSKIER (Mar 18, 2008)

So true on the skier visits dropping.I was at Cannon on Monday and there could not have been more than 100 people total.You could look up the mt all day and at times not see one person on the trails.I thought it was great to have my own mt but wow.Cannon has benn cutting back on lift operations already.The tram will not run this week,then will run March22 and 23 and close for the season.That base area will also be closed.Then after April 6th they will close for the weekdays and reopen with 3 lifts for the final days April 12 and 13.I don't blame them at all as much as I being a season passholder want more.


----------



## loafer89 (Mar 18, 2008)

I can tell you that last April we conributed hardly a penny to Sugarloaf's bottom line when we skied there for a whole week. We stayed in Stratton and took most of our meals in the kitchen in our room and we had a season's pass.

I plan to do much the same this April, it's the only way we can afford to ski for a week.

I do not consider myself the average skier, just one on a budget.


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 18, 2008)

what the ski resorts hope you;ll do is bring beginners with you to try out the sport.  these are the guys who spend on lessons and take maybe 5 or 6 runs total per day.  They take long breaks in the lodges and buy food.


----------



## tjf67 (Mar 18, 2008)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I don't don't see how having a resort giving back revenue they MIGHT have made in peak season by being open with little business in late April and May helps anybody. Convincing the golf courses to not open till the middle of May would help.
> 
> The cost of gas and insurance has skyrocketed in the last few years, many resorts make money on the weekends/holidays but give it back during the week. IMHO if the trend continues I suspect some resorts might close during the week to survive.
> 
> ...wonder if golf courses are opening earlier than they did 10 years ago.



Golf courses for sure are opening earlier than they were ten years ago.  As soon as it is dried out enough to walk on it open.  That a good thing


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Yeah, but you know that this type of thread is right in my wheelhouse. It's a thread that provokes thought and debate and I like to try and add a little fodder to the conversation.



Only old farts like yourself use a term like "fodder"... :lol:


----------



## kingslug (Mar 18, 2008)

Only way to combat this..................is hike for turns when the lifts shut off. Not that I've ever done this...but I would like to.


----------



## cbcbd (Mar 18, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Only way to combat this..................is hike for turns when the lifts shut off. Not that I've ever done this...but I would like to.


Agree - get some snowshoes or an AT setup and hit the hills.... or just boot up.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 18, 2008)

David Metsky said:


> No.  But you retain the right not to buy a season's pass next year.
> 
> Buy a pair of skins and keep skiing.


Amen. One of my favorite sayings has become 'don't let the ski areas dictate the length or your season." On the bright side, with winter seeming to continue into April, there will be ample chances for low competition powder days coming up soon, much like last year and the low competition is thanks to most people hanging up their boards. It is all a supply and demand thing... there are not even enough "die hards" and passionate skiers and riders to make it worth many big resorts to push towards the end of April and into May. Even as most resorts shut down, inevitably usually the last resort shuts down with at least some lift accessible skiing that could be have if it was worth the money to remain open. Fact is, even the truly dedicated and passionate skiers abandon lifts during April.

That brings me to your other enemy... earn your turners  You can bet your last day of skiing lift serviced that I will be choosing Tuckerman Ravine or GoS top to bottom over lift serviced at least once or twice next month and I am hardly alone as thousands descend upon Mount Washington on April weekends.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 18, 2008)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> for us its time....durning the winter there arent sports for our 5yrs old, but in the spring its soccer and Tball on the weekends...and Easter being early this year I think has folks already in the "spring" mood...dont discount gas prices, that's swaying alot of folks as well ..... I'll still grab a day here or there, but cant foresee anymore than 1 more day....


You had me until the gas prices issue. That extra 10-15 cents a gallon certainly adds up to.... a buck or two more when most people are spending over $200 for a weekend. Even for a one person day trip, that is a drop in the bucket. I had this conversation with my significant other just this past weekend about hunting for the lowest gas station in town to fill up at. She only saves one buck on a fill up when the price difference is +/- $0.08, not worth hunting if the pumps are not convenient... you could burn money on gas driving to the cheapest place than just eating an extra buck.


----------



## 4aprice (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't know, maybe I'm in the minority but I see an ideal ski season as approximately Nov 15 - April 15.  As much as I love spring conditions I can't see skiing beyond that point.  I hold a pass to a local area and therefore get  a good amount of days in per season.  My last day at Camelback PA will be Saturday even if they remain open.  I'm planning a trip to Smugglers the last weekend of the month and then (hopefully) a last hurrah at Whiteface the weekend of April 12th.  I'll cap out at around 40 days.  The shrink wrap is due to come off the boat and the lawn needs tending to.  By the time the boat gets put away in October the fever will be kicking in again.  I'll start thinking about it when that first preseason football game is played.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

*Turn earning*

I knew it wouldn't take long before all the turn earners chimed in with their painfully obvious solution. Simple answer for the guys that live near the mountains that hold snow late. For me, the problem is when the local hills close, there's still lift-serviced _somewhere_. If I have to burn a V day, I would rather drive a bit to get lift access. I'm not too keen on hiking Sundown when Mount Snow is still open for example. I still might hike for some post closing turns at Sundown in April. It will be interesting to see if only a few runs satisfies me...


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> You had me until the gas prices issue. That extra 10-15 cents a gallon certainly adds up to.... a buck or two more when most people are spending over $200 for a weekend. Even for a one person day trip, that is a drop in the bucket. I had this conversation with my significant other just this past weekend about hunting for the lowest gas station in town to fill up at. She only saves one buck on a fill up when the price difference is +/- $0.08.



I think he may have been refering to year over year gas prices, which is significant.  It's what 75 cents a gallon more this year than last at this time?  

Gas prices have certainly factored into my skiing plans this winter.  There have been times when I've decided to hit Shawnee Peak instead of Wildcat when I knew the conditions at Wildcat wouldn't be significantly better or at least in my mind worth the extra $10 it cost in gas to go there over Shawnee.  That said, I've also driven all the way to Black on a powder morning when I only had a few hours to ski and didn't even think twice about the nearly $30 in gas it cost me for those three hours.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> I knew it wouldn't take long before all the turn earners chimed in with their painfully obvious solution. Simple answer for the guys that live near the mountains that hold snow late. For me, the problem is when the local hills close, there's still lift-serviced _somewhere_. If I have to burn a V day, I would rather drive a bit to get lift access.


You won't see me earning turns when I believe that I can still have a very satisfying day lift serviced. But when I believe I can have a more enjoyable and satisfying day earning turns, only then do I by pass the lifts. For example, you really don't see many earned turn reports from me during the ski season even though I _always_ keep saying I am going to earn more during the snowy season.



Greg said:


> I still might hike for some post closing turns at Sundown in April. It will be interesting to see if only a few runs satisfies me...


Whether it is satisfying or not will probably be dictated by expectations. It is more than just about the skiing... I do not recall many days where I hiked up and thought "yes, the quality of that one run was definitely worth all the effort and better than the quality of runs I would have gotten lift serviced" (assuming a lift is running and servicing similar terrain/conditions). Happens sometimes but usually not. More often than not, when the experience feels good, some exercise happy neurotransmitters get kicked into high gear, especially on a blue bird corn snow spring day in the mountains. Point taken regarding the location. People drive from further away to ski Tux in April/May though


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Whether it is satisfying or not will probably be dictated by expectations. It is more than just about the skiing... I do not recall many days where I hiked up and thought "yes, the quality of that one run was definitely worth all the effort and better than the quality of runs I would have gotten lift serviced" (assuming a lift is running and servicing similar terrain/conditions). Happens sometimes but usually not. More often than not, when the experience feels good, some exercise happy neurotransmitters get kicked into high gear, especially on a blue bird corn snow spring day in the mountains. Point taken regarding the location. People drive from further away to ski Tux in April/May though



Interesting perspective. I know it's more than just the skiing. I've never done it, but I'm more inclined to hike for some turns this season more than ever, especially at the mighty Sundown, a mere 25 minutes away. They have made an incredible amount of snow and are still covered 100% side to side and probably 2-4' in depth over most of the mountain with huge whales/jumps scattered about. Skiable patches will be around well into late April and possibly longer (May CT turns? :blink. For that simple reason, I've made the decision to not let it go to waste and will take at least a few midweek post-work hike to ski sessions up there. Might even try to make it a weekly thing as long as the snow hangs around. I'm inspired and hopefully I can get some of the Sundown crew to join me.

Anyway, I'm sure the vibe at Tux is worth a longer drive than the vibe at Sundown...


----------



## Geoff (Mar 18, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> You won't see me earning turns when I believe that I can still have a very satisfying day lift serviced. But when I believe I can have a more enjoyable and satisfying day earning turns, only then do I by pass the lifts. For example, you really don't see many earned turn reports from me during the ski season even though I _always_ keep saying I am going to earn more during the snowy season.
> 
> 
> Whether it is satisfying or not will probably be dictated by expectations. It is more than just about the skiing... I do not recall many days where I hiked up and thought "yes, the quality of that one run was definitely worth all the effort and better than the quality of runs I would have gotten lift serviced" (assuming a lift is running and servicing similar terrain/conditions). Happens sometimes but usually not. More often than not, when the experience feels good, some exercise happy neurotransmitters get kicked into high gear, especially on a blue bird corn snow spring day in the mountains. Point taken regarding the location. People drive from further away to ski Tux in April/May though




That's my view as well.  I've been at KMart forevah.  I see no point in hiking when I can ride a lift and get 20x the vertical while still drinking my body weight in cocktails tailgating.  I've always done minor hiking at Killington to get to the unskied corn snow... walking up Launch Pad from Superstar when the K1 closes.  Walking up Killink to get to Snowdon from the K1.  Walking through the mud to get to Outer Limits and then schlepping across the Bear lot to my ride.  That's always been my limit.  Now that KMart is no longer the King of Spring, I'll ski wherever they happen to be spinning the lifts and cut back on the alcohol since I'm driving.  When that ends, I might earn turns a day or two but I'll mostly flip to summer mode.  I walk up and down mountains for the exercise in the summer but  I don't have a lightweight setup and I'm not really big on lugging 40 pounds of skis and boots on my back.


----------



## snoseek (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting perspective. I know it's more than just the skiing. I've never done it, but I'm more inclined to hike for some turns this season more than ever, especially at the mighty Sundown, a mere 25 minutes away. They have made an incredible amount of snow and are still covered 100% side to side and probably 2-4' in depth over most of the mountain with huge whales/jumps scattered about. Skiable patches will be around well into late April and possibly longer (May CT turns? :blink. For that simple reason, I've made the decision to not let it go to waste and will take at least a few midweek post-work hike to ski sessions up there. Might even try to make it a weekly thing as long as the snow hangs around. I'm inspired and hopefully I can get some of the Sundown crew to join me.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure the vibe at Tux is worth a longer drive than the vibe at Sundown...



If you really enjoy hiking then give it a try. Think of it as a nice hike with a heavy pack and you get to ski down as a bonus. I bet you have fun hanging at your local area with no people. Maybe find a nice line of bumps before they melt down and just lap it a whole bunch.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> Anyway, I'm sure the vibe at Tux is worth a longer drive than the vibe at Sundown...


LOL. That was the point, when you coming up?


----------



## Greg (Mar 18, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> LOL. That was the point, when you coming up?



Someday...


----------



## Bumpsis (Mar 18, 2008)

Does any one know which areas do not allow turn earners to climb about their slopes once they close down for the season?
I'm definitely willing to hunt for corn on a nice spring day but would not want to run into access hassles.


----------



## hrstrat57 (Mar 18, 2008)

*great thread*

I started one similar to this on epic last year and got interesting, and very similar responses.

For me it is complicated.....I have had several 100 plus ski day winter/springs so I didn't used to be average....but now I clearly am.

Life, and to a greater degree other passions get in the way of an extended season. 

Sad really cause I love spring skiing, and I bet I would love it even more now with the volkl explosivs buddhas sitting in my closet nearly unused again this season.....those babies are made for spring mank and crud.

However during the week the new job is in the way....I am doing very well there and want to be successful after a meltdown with my last company.

Weekend.....

I love skiing, but I love tennis and golf almost as much. I am on a mission this year to really dial in the golf game again, and although I consider myself a good skier my tennis game still is way better than my ski game. I still play quite a bit of league tennis and need to get ready to play well. In addition my daughter is on the hs tennis and softball teams and has scholarship potential(no 1 son played d3 college tennis) at both....not d1 of course but d2 or d3 is achievable. This means I can't head off 200 miles away and ignore the kid.

My family all love skiing too...but they are done.

I'd really like to get one more strong weekend of skiing in up north with my wachusett pals....but it is not certain.

I am a big part of the problem Greg......and I am sure most have similar reasons as me for waxing em up one last time and hangin em in the basement.

Kinda stinks.

......until I crack that first huge forehand winner or stick a 9 iron inside the leather.


----------



## hrstrat57 (Mar 18, 2008)

*bianchi giro*

....and I just picked up a new Bianchi Giro road bike....looking to fire up that passion again too. Celeste is sweetness.

So I guess I might be done unless my buds can talk me off the golf course, tennis court, bike path or ball field.

Never know do ya?


----------



## ckofer (Mar 18, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> The vast majority of AZers are average skiers, but I guess I'll stay off that.



*There's no point in arguing technical and athletic abilities. I've gotten the impression that most AZers are relatively fanatic about the sport-at least compared to the masses. The question is how do the ski areas remain open late and viable at once. Maybe late season discounting is the real answer. $25 tickets to make it worth the gamble? Financially, many are tapped out at the end of winter too. *


----------



## Geoff (Mar 18, 2008)

Bumpsis said:


> Does any one know which areas do not allow turn earners to climb about their slopes once they close down for the season?
> I'm definitely willing to hunt for corn on a nice spring day but would not want to run into access hassles.



I'm not aware that anybody will chase you off.  Killington posted "go away" signs last November but that was when they were rather busy trying to make snow and get the resort open; they didn't want 500 people getting in their way.  I'd be surprised if they said anything if people hiked for turns in April and May this year.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting perspective. I know it's more than just the skiing. I've never done it, but I'm more inclined to hike for some turns this season more than ever, especially at the mighty Sundown, a mere 25 minutes away. They have made an incredible amount of snow and are still covered 100% side to side and probably 2-4' in depth over most of the mountain with huge whales/jumps scattered about. Skiable patches will be around well into late April and possibly longer (May CT turns? :blink. For that simple reason, I've made the decision to not let it go to waste and will take at least a few midweek post-work hike to ski sessions up there. Might even try to make it a weekly thing as long as the snow hangs around. I'm inspired and hopefully I can get some of the Sundown crew to join me.
> 
> Anyway, I'm sure the vibe at Tux is worth a longer drive than the vibe at Sundown...



Does Sundown tolerate earned turns?  Blue mountain PA will call the cops for tresspassing and they should have a few patches until May as well..a shame ..


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2008)

We combat this problem by bringing friends to the slopes who buy tix, buying beer, and spreading the love.  We do this and also ask the resorts to stay open.

We can use AZ to help the resorts AND us in this way....


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 18, 2008)

Stowe combats the problem with lots of British Skiers in early April..and GrilledSteezeSandwich..lol


----------



## gladerider (Mar 18, 2008)

$%&#$ weather didn't help this season. when 3-4 storms go bust people start to think rain+ski=no go.
i had an awesome weekend beginning of this month and when i was explaining that to a friend of mine 
who is a 'casual skiier', he said 'they got that much snow? i thought they got all rained out...'
that's when the conditions were fabulous. now, after 2 straight rainny weekends, skiing is long gone in people's minds.

for many flat-landers, seeing is believing... 

oh, and no matter how many days you rack up a year, if you are trying to squeeze in an extra day against all odds in your life? others don't think you are an AVERAGE skier. just accept it. you are a fanatic.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2008)

gladerider said:


> oh, and no matter how many days you rack up a year, if you are trying to squeeze in an extra day against all odds in your life? others don't think you are an AVERAGE skier. just accept it. you are a fanatic.




TRUE

guess we all just wish there were more fanatics out there so the mountain operators would stay open longer


----------



## campgottagopee (Mar 19, 2008)

Feels like one of those commercials-----

Hi, my name is Camp----"Hi Camp"----and I'm an average skier.............


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 19, 2008)

you don;t have to be a fanatic.  just be content with "spring skiing" all that it entails(variable bare conditions and fighting through slush moguls).  wouldn;t hurt the resorts if you bought some overpriced food from the lodges as well.

there has got to be a happy medium to satisfy the resort owners and their customers.

i am trying to figure out how to do a last second trip to Utah in April.  unfortunately, time is running out.....


----------



## kingslug (Mar 19, 2008)

It's a 3 hour hike for me just to get to Hunter...this is limiting for me. Plus I wouldn't even know where to go in the back country. So I guess when the lifts stop running...I stop skiing...unless I take a trip to Tux.


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 19, 2008)

hiking for turns is probably only something for the most dedicated...or atleast those who live close enough to a resort to not do it if it is going to suck.  

for most of us, skiing is a destination activity.   we want miles of "quantity" skiing.


----------



## ctenidae (Mar 20, 2008)

When it gets to the point that it costs us $150 to spend a few hours water skiing on mashed potatoes, I'm willing to call it a season.


----------



## loafer89 (Mar 20, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> When it gets to the point that it costs us $150 to spend a few hours water skiing on mashed potatoes, I'm willing to call it a season.


 

There are exceptions to this rule such as skiing up North in Maine where mid-winter conditions persist usually until closing day in late April. Sugarloaf and Saddleback run out of skiers long before they run out of snow.


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 20, 2008)

yeah, i wish it was easier for me to get to sugarloaf.  all those that live within striking distance of that place are lucky.  for me it;s 8 hours and 452 miles from my door.

i was checking wistfully the other day about what it would take to get to tremblant....


----------



## loafer89 (Mar 20, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> yeah, i wish it was easier for me to get to sugarloaf. all those that live within striking distance of that place are lucky. for me it;s 8 hours and 452 miles from my door.
> 
> i was checking wistfully the other day about what it would take to get to tremblant....


 

We moved up to Northeastern Connecticut and now it 290 miles and 5 1/4 hours away, though I did the drive a dozen or more times from Long Island.


----------



## 180 (Mar 20, 2008)

All the average people (and many diehards) used to spring ski before they had kids.  Now once, spring sports start, mom and dad are either coaching or car pooling.  The kids can't ski because they will miss practice.  Miss practice and you don't start. The soccer mom is to blame.  Fall sports only in my house.


----------



## Greg (Mar 20, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> When it gets to the point that it costs us $150 to spend a few hours water skiing on mashed potatoes, I'm willing to call it a season.



I love spring snow, especially mashed potato bumps!


----------



## ctenidae (Mar 20, 2008)

Greg said:


> I love spring snow, especially mashed potato bumps!



I probably should have added mud running to that. If I have to spend more time rinsing mud out of my bindings than I did skiing, I'm not happy.


----------



## Rushski (Mar 20, 2008)

A lot of the early closings are definitely due to the "average skier" thinking the season is over once there are two days over freezing in early March.

Sure many areas will close WAY before the snow is even close to gone this year.

Know I'm just reiterating what others have said but it really annoys me when people say it's going to be lousy and then I go out and prove them sadly mistaken.


----------



## ctenidae (Mar 20, 2008)

On the flip side, it's the average skier that keeps the mountains open during the winter by buying day tickets, lodge food, and hotel rooms. Without them, we'd have to pay $70 to ski a day, and $9 for a burger at lunch.

Wait a second...


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 20, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> I probably should have added mud running to that. If I have to spend more time rinsing mud out of my bindings than I did skiing, I'm not happy.



Mud is part of spring skiing..Unless you ski for 3 minutes..you're not going to spend more time rinsing mud out of your bindings than skiing..I feel like skeet spots and core shots on the bottom of my skis is a badge of honor..

Several years back Stowe had a 50 yard patch of bare ground in the middle of Liftline and I just skied right through it...the key is skiing it on a flat ski..

I'm hoping for at least 10 days of skiing in April and hopefully a day or two in May..without having to get on a plane..

But I don't have kids who play T-ball or a nagging wife or a lawn that needs to be cut..uke:


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 20, 2008)

another odd observation-i prefer skiing on sundays because they are less crowded.  usually people either cut out early or don;t consider it because they need a day to recover.  for the average skier, it;s saturday or no day.  there are limited amounts of saturdays too.  so as a result, by 2:00 on sundays, most mountains seem to be empty.  better for the likes of people like me but i does seem like a waste....

i can;t believe that it;s only the 3rd week of march and we are talking about the season winding down.....


----------



## drewfidelic (Mar 20, 2008)

The ski season seems skewed too early. People start getting excited about skiing in November when conditions (outside of some nice early storms) are going to be borderline to mediocre at best, yet when April comes around, the days are long, the temperatures are warm, and there's lots of good skiing to be had, everyone's moved on. I realize that not everyone is going to ski into May, but AlpineZone should start the movement-- ski season in the Northeast doesn't end until the end of April.

I can't fault the ski areas for closing when it becomes financially dumb to stay open. But if we can make a difference-- write to your local paper, bring friends, buy day passes, and make closing weekends big business for the resorts, then the season will continue.
________
Iolite Vaporizer Use


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 20, 2008)

Instead of complaining..we should feel fortunate that there are a handful of ski areas in the northeast that cater to spring skiing enthusiasts..


----------



## severine (Mar 20, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Instead of complaining..we should feel fortunate that there are a handful of ski areas in the northeast that cater to spring skiing enthusiasts..


Blah blah blah, yakkidy schmackidy.  If we're going to go that route, should we be also fortunate that we live in a country and clime where skiing is possible, that we have food to eat and air to breath?

Just give me the snow and nobody gets hurt.

I'm ticked off, too, about the season coming to a close so early around here.  Remember earlier in the season when you guys polled which was better, getting an early season or late?  I stand by my vote - I'd rather have a solid late season.  And I wish more felt that way, otherwise we wouldn't have this problem of early closings.


----------



## ckofer (Mar 20, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Instead of complaining..we should feel fortunate that there are a handful of ski areas in the northeast that cater to spring skiing enthusiasts..



*I'll go along with that. The fact that some are announcing early (by most of our standards) closings makes it more viable for neighboring mountains. Steep discounts to season pass holders of closed mountains might be a good idea to generate traffic and vibe.*


----------



## jaywbigred (Mar 21, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> You had me until the gas prices issue. That extra 10-15 cents a gallon certainly adds up to.... a buck or two more when most people are spending over $200 for a weekend. Even for a one person day trip, that is a drop in the bucket.



I very much disagree.



ski_resort_observer said:


> The cost of gas and insurance has skyrocketed in the last few years, many resorts make money on the weekends/holidays but give it back during the week. IMHO if the trend continues I suspect some resorts might close during the week to survive.



Very good point.



bobbutts said:


> need a small army of staff and a large amount of expensive energy + the energy to stockpile snow.



Another very good point.



happyjack said:


> i think the economy is gonna play havoc with many expensive recreation activities.  golf has already seen a notable decline since it's peak 4-5 years ago.  i'm already seeing lots of ads from the $80-$100 daily fees courses offering discounted seasonal memberships.



Exactly!

_Nerd time?_
Issue: Skier visits being "down" in mid-to-late March, resulting in early closings in late March and early April.

Possible causes proposed: 
1) The mental state of non-fanatic skiers, whose minds turn towards non-skiing activities as the temp. slowly rises. Examples given: golf, tennis, biking, yard work, boating.
2) The forced state upon fanatic skiers whose life situation prevents them from skiing late in the season even when they want to. Examples given: kids who play spring sports, spouses whose patience for skiing fanaticism wains, people who are limited by geography, people who rely on local mountains for lift served.
3) The Economic issues facing ski resorts. Examples: Ski resorts are expensive to operate, "give back" money made during winter/weekends during the spring/weekdays, have high energy costs, have high liability costs (insurance), and suffer from a departing/expensive workforce during the spring.
4) Economic hardships faced by individual skiers. Examples: the price of gas, the price of on-mountain food, the price of a day ticket, the price of lodging.

Analysis: I think that issue is one that begs a macro perspective. When we talk about skier visits being "down" and resorts closing "early," we are talking in relative perspectives to prior years, and to other resorts (presumably). This means that to understand what is going on, we have to look at past years' successes, the benchmarks to which this year is not living up, i.e. the given presumption that ski resorts made money at some point (the 80s and 90s, periods of relative economic prosperity, i guess?). I think overall in this thread, Causes #3 and #4, above, have been vastly under-cited. Our economy, comparitive to the last 30+ years (arguably) is a mess. Absolute gas prices (i.e., those adjusted for inflation) are at record highs, and though this might make a tank of gas only a "few bucks more expensive" than in the past, this is viewpoint wearing blinders. Our economy, especially mountain economies in isolated areas, often away from ports and trains, rely highly on truck traffic for many goods and products. Rising energy prices faced by manufacturers, distributors and providers of services (including ski resorts) are often passed on to the consumer (both non-skier and skier). This makes everything more expensive, and so the natural tendency is for the public to cut leisure spending so that they can pay for the things that really matter; If youre in danger of defaulting on your mortgage (and we are in a housing crisis, remember), your April ski trip is not going to occur this year. Though obviously it is fair to blame a service provider for price gauging, or a fickle, frightened consumer for overreaction (non-spending, non-investing, run-on-banks type behaviour), I think blaming mountains (for passing on costs, like all service providers in all industries have done)  and blaming individuals facing personal economic hardships (for not coming out late in the season) are both immature. 

Possible solutions:
1) Earn your turns. Simple enough.
2) "Stop complaining." We had a great snow year. This thread is, afterall, at least partially, a complaint _that crowds are too small_. This means more mountain for us (at least for the time being, until close)!
3) Support local economies near ski resorts by buying local products. Basically, spend money.
4) Pray for economic stability and prosperity in the future. When the economy is prospering, the (ever-elusive) "Average-skier" has more free time and more disposable income, in theory. Combine that with a decent snow year, and I am sure you would see a return to later-spring skiing in the northeast.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 21, 2008)

THis afternoon at Blue was packed..lots of people snuck out of work early and kids had off school for Good Friday...there was a 5 minute liftline for the 6-pack..and they freaking close tomorrow..with a solid base and all the runs open..a damn shame..so Sunday I'm skiing Camelback for free..


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 21, 2008)

jaywbigred said:


> I very much disagree.


Perhaps because you drive up from New Jersey, I guess. Or perhaps a low MPG vehicle? But at a 10 cent difference in gas prices, you have to use 50 gallons of gas for that to make a $5 difference. Speaking for myself, a round drip drive to Jay for me is 7.5ish gallons so a 10 cent increase in prices or a difference between gas stations only saves/costs me $0.75. Please note that my previous post was not suggesting that gas is inexpensive but merely suggesting counting pennies at the pump does not really add up now that the average fill up for most people is around $30+ which as previously pointed out, was probably not what the other poster that I had responded to was trying to say.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 21, 2008)

The average fill-up for most people is a heck of alot more than $30..I paid $42 the other day filling up my Impreza at $3.25 a gallon..and my car gets better gas mileage than most..


----------



## ckofer (Mar 21, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Perhaps because you drive up from New Jersey, I guess. Or perhaps a low MPG vehicle? But at a 10 cent difference in gas prices, you have to use 50 gallons of gas for that to make a $5 difference. Speaking for myself, a round drip drive to Jay for me is 7.5ish gallons so a 10 cent increase in prices or a difference between gas stations only saves/costs me $0.75. Please note that my previous post was not suggesting that gas is inexpensive but merely suggesting counting pennies at the pump does not really add up now that the average fill up for most people is around $30+ which as previously pointed out, was probably not what the other poster that I had responded to was trying to say.



*Perhaps more important to the discussion is the cost of heating fuels (at least for some)

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/hopu.asp

Add in plowing and other winter maint costs and some are tapped out financially. Believe it or not, some folks are just tired of winter. I have a small contracting business and making money is tough in this weather. Thank goodness for my cheap skiing hobby. 
*


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 21, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> The average fill-up for most people is a heck of alot more than $30..I paid $42 the other day filling up my Impreza at $3.25 a gallon..and my car gets better gas mileage than most..


That is why I wrote $30+ and when I wrote "fill up" I am also assuming you are not driving around on fumes. I tank up around a quarter of a tank and almost never less than an eighth. "Fill Up" only means you fill your tank up and does not assume an empty tank.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 21, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> That is why I wrote $30+ and when I wrote "fill up" I am also assuming you are not driving around on fumes. I tank up around a quarter of a tank and almost never less than an eighth. "Fill Up" only means you fill your tank up and does not assume an empty tank.



O.K. I fill up when the light goes on..lol..prolong the inevitable..lol


----------



## jaywbigred (Mar 22, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Perhaps because you drive up from New Jersey, I guess. Or perhaps a low MPG vehicle? But at a 10 cent difference in gas prices, you have to use 50 gallons of gas for that to make a $5 difference. Speaking for myself, a round drip drive to Jay for me is 7.5ish gallons so a 10 cent increase in prices or a difference between gas stations only saves/costs me $0.75. Please note that my previous post was not suggesting that gas is inexpensive but merely suggesting counting pennies at the pump does not really add up now that the average fill up for most people is around $30+ which as previously pointed out, was probably not what the other poster that I had responded to was trying to say.



Well, despitedrivng from lowly NJ, it has _not _effected me. My car gets decent gas mileage, and gas prices in NJ tend to be lower tha elsewhere in the country. Plus I have a good job and I always carpool w people who pitch in for gas.

All that being said, I think you misse part of the point of my post, which is that high gas prices effect consumer not only when they fill up their individual vehicles, but across the board, as seller' of goods an services pass on the increased cost of doing business to the buyer. So you might pay 20% more for your tank of gas, but you also are paying more for a loaf of bread, for a driveway to be plowed, for a hotel to be heated, for a case of beer, and so on. When you add that all up, you have a trip that is more expensive, comparative to past years.


----------



## riverc0il (Mar 22, 2008)

If I missed your point, it was because it was not a factor in the discussion at hand and from which you originally quoted me. A 10 cent jump is not 20% increase and is not going to change domestic prices on goods because it is well within a give range of variance. The jump from $2 to $3 a gallon surely has increased prices for consumer goods across the board which is irrelevant to the my post replying to a previous thread, which again, has been suggested was not the intent of the poster. In other words, the point I was arguing is irrelevant to the discussion but the point you are taking me to task on was never being discussed either.


----------



## Lostone (Mar 22, 2008)

> Just give me the snow and nobody gets hurt.


:-o


:razz:​ 



I think Greg is right.  It is the fault of the average skier.  They stop coming up early.  And so do a lot of the non-average skiers.  

I think the average skiers gets in less than 10 days a season.  Those days end before spring begins... on the calendar.  I think the average skiers stop shortly after that.

Today was a day that people would die for in November.  (They'd die for it in an ordinary December, but this December...      But I digress... :smile:  )  But come March, they start to see grass, in their back yards.  They switch seasons.  I had a friend, who was here this time last month, who asked if the mountain was closed. :-o  

The ski areas would love to stay open.  But they need people to buy lift tickets.  They need people to buy food.  They need people to rent places to stay.   They need people to pay them to stay open.  They need people to come up.

Don't they owe it to those who paid for the season?  Yes.  But most project a closing day.  They owe it to the passholders to try to make it to that day.  Most would love to exceed that day, but they need people to pay them to stay open.  How much would you give away, with no return, other than reputation?  

I doubt any say they'll stay open as long as there is snow.


----------



## loafer89 (Mar 23, 2008)

At this point I think that the weather is the enemy, with the exception of Northern Vermont and select spots in New Hampshire, the skiing is not that great and the ice storm from last week ruined the natural snowcover in Maine.

Sadly the extended forecasts that I see call for much below normal temperatures and even worse, little or no new snow. Honestly I am not interested in wasting expensive gasoline and lodging for mediocre skiing. We will be skiing locally and waiting for a thaw, but we may run our of operating days before the corn snow shows up on a consistent basis


----------



## bobbutts (Mar 23, 2008)

loafer89 said:


> At this point I think that the weather is the enemy, with the exception of Northern Vermont and select spots in New Hampshire, the skiing is not that great and the ice storm from last week ruined the natural snowcover in Maine.
> 
> Sadly the extended forecasts that I see call for much below normal temperatures and even worse, little or no new snow. Honestly I am not interested in wasting expensive gasoline and lodging for mediocre skiing. We will be skiing locally and waiting for a thaw, but we may run our of operating days before the corn snow shows up on a consistent basis



Yeah the real shame about the early closing dates is the lack of days with classic spring weather especially if it stays below normal starting now.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 23, 2008)

I skied Blue yesterday and Camelback today and there were lots of people out skiing and even some short liftlines..Camelback remains open and Blue is now closed..


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 23, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> No Spring riding this year for me  :sad: .. how does that fit into the global warming picture.. now work is my life for the next 8 weeks.



Do you get extra vacation time to make up for working 56 days in a row straight?


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> No just that dam extra money .. :smile:



You should take that extra mullah and do a trip to Chile this summer to make up for the turns you're losing in April :beer:


----------



## happyjack (Mar 24, 2008)

sorry for being a n00b, but what exactly is "earn your turns"?


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2008)

happyjack said:


> sorry for being a n00b, but what exactly is "earn your turns"?



What's a n00b???   :lol:



j/k -  earn your turns = hike for skiing as opposed to taking a lift or other mode of transport


----------



## happyjack (Mar 24, 2008)

ok.  that's what i thought, but sometimes it seemed like it was used where i didn't think that translation made sense.

then again...there's lots of stuff that doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## jaywbigred (Mar 24, 2008)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> ....dont discount gas prices, that's swaying alot of folks as well .....



This was the quote you originally took issue with. To me, "swaying" can mean both overtly, conciously, when the skier fills up his/her gas tank, but also (perhaps subconciously), as he feels the sting of overall spikes in prices for certain goods/services, partly due to this same increase in gas prices.



riverc0il said:


> ...A 10 cent jump is not 20% increase


 It is if you go from.50 cents to .60 cents ;-)



SKIQUATTRO said:


> and is not going to change domestic prices on goods because it is well within a give range of variance. .



Again, I disagree with that statement. A long term permanent change of a penny will, ever so slightly, effect the overall cost of consumer goods.



SKIQUATTRO said:


> The jump from $2 to $3 a gallon surely has increased prices for consumer goods across the board which is irrelevant to the my post replying to a previous thread,



I don't know what "previous thread" you are referring too, but I think when you address the question as to what is impacting 1) less skier visits and 2) earler resort closings, it makes sense to look at something like the rise, between 2002 and 2006, for example, of inflation adjusted gas prices, from $1.50 to $2.50, a rise of 66% in inflation adjusted dollars.






(from inflationdata.com)

Let me state _one more time_, (I'm trying to emphasize this point) that in order to answer the questions at hand "why are skier visits down _from prior years_" and "why are mountains closing earlier _than prior years_", you have to look at comparisons on a year-to-year basis! Thus, the.10 cent rise you keep citing is irrelavant beceause it doesn't address the change in gas prices over a relevant span of time (multiple years). 

Fictional AZer 2002: 
20 ski trips (20-40 ski days).
300 miles round trip.
23 mpg avg in his car
13 gallon tank
1 tank of gas = 1 roundtrip
1 fill up = $1.50 x 13 = $19.50
gas cost for year = $390

Fictional AZer 2006: 
To reach the same $390 in inflation adjusted dollars, the 2006 AZer 
would only be able to take 12 ski trips.
12 ski trips (12-24 ski days?)
1 fill up = $2.50 x 13 = $32.50
gas cost for year = $390

 In 2006, in order to spend the same amount of inflation adjusted dollars as he/she did in 2002, an AZer would have to forego 8 trips and 8-16 ski days. Thus, an AZer in 2006 would have to choose between spending more of his disposable income on gas, or skiing less. Certainly a good number of skiers would choose to ski less (if the opportunity cost for him is too high, if his disposable income is earmarked for other expenditures, or if he was already maxing out his disposable income to go skiing), and, as a result, skier visits go down, mountains make less money, mountains close earlier. 

And, of course, gas prices from 2006-2008 have certainly increased, even after adjusting for inflation. So I am sure the difference is even greater today. Therefore, I am going to go ahead and agree with Skiquattro, that gas prices may sway some skiers, even without having to add-in my point re: other goods.




SKIQUATTRO said:


> which again, has been suggested was not the intent of the poster.



Did Skiquattro state, somewhere, his intent?



SKIQUATTRO said:


> In other words, the point I was arguing is irrelevant to the discussion but the point you are taking me to task on was never being discussed either.


 Huh? I am not sure I follow that, but I think the point we are arguing is certainly relevant to the discussion.


----------



## tcharron (Mar 24, 2008)

Greg said:


> [rant]
> Obviously AZ represents the more passionate skier demographic and some of us will ski even after lift serviced is done. It's kind of ironic though that the "average" skier seems to be the one that keeps the industry afloat financially despite being far less passionate. Yet, ski area/resorts are forced to cater to them. They are the reason for a lot of things that many of the die hards don't like - overgrooming of trails, early closures, etc.
> [/rant]



The average skiier doesn't want to go to a mountain which has all of it's trails be bunny trails.  They want to go SKI on blues, think of them as double blacks, and brag to their friends.  :-D

Unfortunately, they're also the ones paying $60-$90 for a day pass and are, on a per skiier impression, considered the target audience.  They're also the ones, don't forget, that are staying at the hotels and eating in the eateries at many of the larger places.  The 'I need lodging tonight' cost at Killingtons largest hotel can go to $200 pp/pn.


----------



## tcharron (Mar 24, 2008)

KingM said:


> I agree with some, but not all of your premise.
> 
> The first part, yes, but if you go to the mountain on any given day, 80% of the skiers are skiing on 20% of the terrain. Blacks, moguls, woods, etc. are all overrepresented based on what the majority of the skiers are looking for. Given where the skiers congregate, I think we're lucky that more of the mountain isn't given over to big, wide blues and greens groomed to within an inch of their lives.



As I said earlier, most of them don't want to JUSt ski, they want to ski at a place that HAS the impressive trails, even if they have no intent of doing them.  Well, they have intent, till they see them, and say 'Lets trye these greens to warm up', and never actually have the guts to go try the black diamond.  But those trails are what give the mountain the 'aura' that attracts the minions.


----------



## tcharron (Mar 24, 2008)

Bumpsis said:


> Does any one know which areas do not allow turn earners to climb about their slopes once they close down for the season?
> I'm definitely willing to hunt for corn on a nice spring day but would not want to run into access hassles.



I read last year some of them encouraged it.  Pretty sure it was Magic mountain that said come do it anytime, year in or out, and do it for free (even during peak season).

http://www.magicmtn.com/static_page.php?id=38


----------



## tekweezle (Mar 25, 2008)

well I did my part for spring skiing.  was in western ny over the easter holiday and skied 1 hour and 20 minutes at GreekPeak at night and 2 1/2 hours at Song Mountain.  got to both places late but the skiing was adequate and crowds were minimal.  

both places plan to close up and only offer weekends from here on out.  kind of sad because with the way it freezes up overnight out there, conditions were arguably mid winter like, aside from bare and thin patches.  the base was a thin layer of hardpack and ice but still skiable.  i guess it would take much of a warm up to totally expose the mountain though.....


----------



## jarrodski (Mar 25, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Does Sundown tolerate earned turns?  Blue mountain PA will call the cops for tresspassing and they should have a few patches until May as well..a shame ..



Sundown does not.   no resuce services, amongst a liability dictates that no skiing after we are closed unless there is a private photo shoot organized by Ski Sundown.  

Sundown does make a big deal about this, and has to for good reason.  Think about what's on the line with poachers and it's obvious that this can not be tolerated, even with record snow depths at this point in the season.


----------



## jarrodski (Mar 25, 2008)

How do you convince someone not to do their spring chores? play with their kids? Go to soccer? wash their car? . . .  

It's a challenge put forth to ski areas and one that no one has nailed yet.  Everyone who skis passionatly knows that Spring means less layers, softer "hero" snow and longer sunny days on the mountain.  The re-energized feeling that the end is near forces the skiers skier to get out there and make no excuses.  Unlike the single digit temps of Jan and Feb, March and April offers the chance to unmask and actaully speak to the chair mate... all in all, spring is great.  But how great?  Apparently no one wants to learn how while it's nice out.  No one wants to sit on a deck, while it's nice out.  No one wants to ride a lift with no lines, while it's nice out... 

Who knows that the answer is. But when someone gets it, then the seasons can be extended.  Snow, for areas who know its worth, is not the problem.  Snow making has come light years in it's advancements in just recent history.  It's the lack of peoples passion for the sport (recreational or not, Glen Plake is old and smells like Gin I hear) 

Anyways,  who mountain bikes in CT?


----------



## bvibert (Mar 25, 2008)

ishovelsnow said:


> Anyways,  who mountain bikes in CT?



I do.  Why, are we going to start lift served MTB at Sundown????? :idea:


----------



## drjeff (Mar 25, 2008)

ishovelsnow said:


> How do you convince someone not to do their spring chores? play with their kids? Go to soccer? wash their car? . . .
> 
> It's a challenge put forth to ski areas and one that no one has nailed yet.  Everyone who skis passionatly knows that Spring means less layers, softer "hero" snow and longer sunny days on the mountain.  The re-energized feeling that the end is near forces the skiers skier to get out there and make no excuses.  Unlike the single digit temps of Jan and Feb, March and April offers the chance to unmask and actaully speak to the chair mate... all in all, spring is great.  But how great?  Apparently no one wants to learn how while it's nice out.  No one wants to sit on a deck, while it's nice out.  No one wants to ride a lift with no lines, while it's nice out...
> 
> ...



The biggie issue with the masses and spring snow, aside from the other "warm weather" activities that they haven't done in a few months, is that plain and simple, just like the average skier doesn't like powder because it's too tough to ski in, the average skier dislikes the spring daily snow cycle even more than powder.  It's "too icy" first thing in the AM,  "just right" for an hour or 2 mid/late AM, and then way to soft/mushy/sticky the rest of the day.  And that doesn't even get into the fact that the "average" skier would much rather ski a perfectly groomed 8 lane wide corduroy high way than spring bumps.

The reality is that all of New England realistically has enough daily skier/rider business to support atmost 2 to 4 open ski areas after the 2nd weekend of April, and from then on basically subtract 1 ski area per week.  After the 1st weekend of May, most of the hard core skiers have sets their sites on earning their spring corn feasts rather than riding a chairlift for their feasts.  As much as it's tough to admit,  this is afterall the ski *BUSINESS* and if in low demand times a business isn't making a profit, it's digging into it's reserves which may very well be better spent on new things for the upcoming season which with proper marketing will attract more customers and make the *business* more $$ which can be used to buy more new things to atttract more new customers.  That makes a heck of alot more sense business wise than operating at a loss to cater to a smaller market share of folks who in many instances may very well not frequently goto that ski area in the "high season"


----------



## MR. evil (Mar 25, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I do.  Why, are we going to start lift served MTB at Sundown????? :idea:



Lift service for Mtn biking would be a waste at Sundown. Anyone should be able to ride up almost anyone of those trails fairly easy. but it would be great if they built some trail features (bridges, log piles, jumps) and cut some sweet single track in the woods and let us ride there for a small fee.


----------



## jack97 (Mar 25, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I do.  Why, are we going to start lift served MTB at Sundown????? :idea:





MR. evil said:


> Lift service for Mtn biking would be a waste at Sundown. Anyone should be able to ride up almost anyone of those trails fairly easy. but it would be great if they built some trail features (bridges, log piles, jumps) and cut some sweet single track in the woods and let us ride there for a small fee.




Put in something like this.


----------



## bvibert (Mar 25, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Put in something like this.



Nice bumps!


----------



## 4aprice (Mar 25, 2008)

That's an interesting video.  Makes me rethink my feelings on the that hidieous looking ramp in the Jersey Meadowlands that I pass almost everyday.  My original feelings were no way I would ski in that thing but if they had a line of bumps I might reconsider.  I like the carpet idea too.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## jack97 (Mar 25, 2008)

4aprice said:


> That's an interesting video.  Makes me rethink my feelings on the that hidieous looking ramp in the Jersey Meadowlands that I pass almost everyday.  My original feelings were no way I would ski in that thing but if they had a line of bumps I might reconsider.  I like the carpet idea too.



Me too. Figure somewhere in late summer/early fall, I usually get the twitch for some bumps. It might get so bad I would make a one way 5 hr drive to Jersey. 

Only thing that would save me is that carpet, I figure if every one in AZ convinces Grassi to put that in his backyard he can open it up for business. If he gets a bar setup, he should be able to get back his initial investment in short time. :smash:


----------



## bvibert (Mar 26, 2008)

MR. evil said:


> Lift service for Mtn biking would be a waste at Sundown. Anyone should be able to ride up almost anyone of those trails fairly easy. but it would be great if they built some trail features (bridges, log piles, jumps) and cut some sweet single track in the woods and let us ride there for a small fee.



I think they'd be able to attract some DHer's if they setup a nice course.  DH bikes are pretty heavy, most of those guys wouldn't want to ride them uphill for very long..


----------



## drjeff (Mar 26, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I think they'd be able to attract some DHer's if they setup a nice course.  DH bikes are pretty heavy, most of those guys wouldn't want to ride them uphill for very long..



Once again, the biggest issue you'd have is the financial aspect of trying to cater to what is a small niche market.  True, Sundown could attract a few folks wanting to ride the lift up and let gravity do the rest, especially given the large mtn bike population that is on many of the trails in the greater Hartford area,  but, many of those mtn bikers, if they're really into the DH aspect, already are used to traveling up North to VT for their DH biking where they get a longer DH ride.

From having been at Mount Snow many summer weekends, while the mountain bike scene there is pretty good, and their established trail networks and lift operations very good,  if there isn't a big contest there,  you'll see roughly 100 cars in the parking lots on any given weekend.  Now if its something like the US national like they had last summer, then the parking lots are about as full as if it was an "average" mid-winter weekend.

Bottom line, if your in that niche, it seems like a no-brainer for an area to do this, but often the cold hard truth that the accountant provides an area owner after the season tells a different story.  I can tell you from the passholders meeting at Mount Snow, when summer mtn biking was brought up, the reply from mgt was "Tim Boyd thinks its fine as long as it doesn't loose money" and then the elaboration was that if its loosing money, thats less to spend on winter on mountain upgrades which is the primary focus of the resort.


----------



## bvibert (Mar 26, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Once again, the biggest issue you'd have is the financial aspect of trying to cater to what is a small niche market.  True, Sundown could attract a few folks wanting to ride the lift up and let gravity do the rest, especially given the large mtn bike population that is on many of the trails in the greater Hartford area,  but, many of those mtn bikers, if they're really into the DH aspect, already are used to traveling up North to VT for their DH biking where they get a longer DH ride.
> 
> From having been at Mount Snow many summer weekends, while the mountain bike scene there is pretty good, and their established trail networks and lift operations very good,  if there isn't a big contest there,  you'll see roughly 100 cars in the parking lots on any given weekend.  Now if its something like the US national like they had last summer, then the parking lots are about as full as if it was an "average" mid-winter weekend.
> 
> Bottom line, if your in that niche, it seems like a no-brainer for an area to do this, but often the cold hard truth that the accountant provides an area owner after the season tells a different story.  I can tell you from the passholders meeting at Mount Snow, when summer mtn biking was brought up, the reply from mgt was "Tim Boyd thinks its fine as long as it doesn't loose money" and then the elaboration was that if its loosing money, thats less to spend on winter on mountain upgrades which is the primary focus of the resort.



Believe me, I realize it's a pipe dream.  I'm just looking for some work in the summer..  If Sundown ran the lifts for whatever reason in the off-season then I wouldn't have to look for part-time employment elsewhere...   Personally I'd prefer to ride my bike up and down the  mountain, but then that doesn't offer me much in the way of a job.


----------



## Greg (Mar 26, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Believe me, I realize it's a pipe dream.  I'm just looking for some work in the summer..  If Sundown ran the lifts for whatever reason in the off-season then I wouldn't have to look for part-time employment elsewhere...   Personally I'd prefer to ride my bike up and down the  mountain, but then that doesn't offer me much in the way of a job.



Get them to install a dry slope bump field on Gunny. I'd ski it for sure. :lol:


----------



## bvibert (Mar 26, 2008)

Greg said:


> Get them to install a dry slope bump field on Gunny. I'd ski it for sure. :lol:



You're not the only one...


----------



## jaywbigred (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Put in something like this.



If they put a bump line like that in at Xanadu, I might actually, literally, wet myself w excitedment. I would be there everyday I think. Even if it is the evil empire.


----------



## hiroto (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Put in something like this.



So where does this locate?  I assume it is in Europe?


----------



## jack97 (Mar 26, 2008)

hiroto said:


> So where does this locate?  I assume it is in Europe?



I think the indoor and the carpets are in England. Seem very popular over there.

Here's another from the same subscriber/producer


----------



## drjeff (Mar 26, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Believe me, I realize it's a pipe dream.  I'm just looking for some work in the summer..  If Sundown ran the lifts for whatever reason in the off-season then I wouldn't have to look for part-time employment elsewhere...   Personally I'd prefer to ride my bike up and down the  mountain, but then that doesn't offer me much in the way of a job.



I think if they really wanted to do something different that would generate some market buzz(and hence crowds to economically sustain significant summer operations), they'd need to look into something like an alpine coaster (different than an alpine slide in that you can also run the coaster in winter giving it year round income producing potential)







and/or a zipline, which also has year round operation capabilites






Do a little summer cross promotion with the Satan's Kingdom inner tubing on The Farmington River, and at minimum you'd see a bunch of summer camp groups, town parks and recreation groups, church youth group sponsored trips showing up.  The biggest issue though that Sundown will often have with summer operations and drawing folks, is that if its a nice day in the summer, a significant portion of the their potential customers for summer activities will be asking themselves the following question "do I goto the beach or Six Flags or do I goto Sundown?"  and many will choose the day trip to Hammonassett or Agawam over New Hartford.


----------



## hiroto (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> I think the indoor and the carpets are in England. Seem very popular over there.



Followed the url http://www.xscape.co.uk seen in the video and it seems the indoor one is SNO!zone Scotland. I would love to know where that outdoor one is.  I've seen video of summer skiing slopes but never seen bump slope like that.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 26, 2008)

jaywbigred said:


> If they put a bump line like that in at Xanadu, I might actually, literally, wet myself w excitedment. I would be there everyday I think. Even if it is the evil empire.



AZ day at Xanadu?????  Yeah if there was an indoor bump run..I'd definitely cream my pants..


----------



## Greg (Mar 26, 2008)

drjeff said:


> I think if they really wanted to do something different that would generate some market buzz(and hence crowds to economically sustain significant summer operations), they'd need to look into something like an alpine coaster (different than an alpine slide in that you can also run the coaster in winter giving it year round income producing potential)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's all sillyness. The dry slope bump field is the only way to go...


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 26, 2008)

Alpine Slides are the shit..Camelback used to have one and the one at Stowe is fun..


----------



## hiroto (Mar 26, 2008)

Search for keywords like "summer" "skiing" "backyard" and you'll find bunch of video like those.

There is definitely market for summer skiing (but again, those video might all came from UK :roll: )


----------



## jack97 (Mar 26, 2008)

hiroto said:


> There is definitely market for summer skiing (but again, those video might all came from UK :roll: )



IMO, a place like Nashoba Valley can put that in and make a killing. They own the land and they have the location. Imagine all the business they can get; summer camps where they already offer swim and volleyball, now they can add dry slope skiing. During winter, they have a race league so they can pull in the adults and kids (thru word of mouth) who want to keep up with the training year round. Lots of potential at that spot.


----------



## tcharron (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> I think the indoor and the carpets are in England. Seem very popular over there.
> 
> Here's another from the same subscriber/producer



They want to put one in Waltham, Mass.

http://www.thenoiseboard.com/lofiversion/index.php?t165735.html

Hadn't read anything on it since last year tho.


----------



## hiroto (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> IMO, a place like Nashoba Valley can put that in and make a killing. They own the land and they have the location. Imagine all the business they can get; summer camps where they already offer swim and volleyball, now they can add dry slope skiing. During winter, they have a race league so they can pull in the adults and kids (thru word of mouth) who want to keep up with the training year round. Lots of potential at that spot.



I was thinking exactly the same.  Nashoba is ideal for this.  Also, think about the possibility of summer adult league


----------



## Greg (Mar 26, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, I'm too bummed with the prospect of my local hill closing soon to concentrate on reading a whole lot.  Sundown is like a second home to me, especially this season.  I'm really going to miss going there to ski _and_ work.



Imagine what Temptor would have been like this afternoon? 55*F and partly sunny skies.


----------



## bvibert (Mar 26, 2008)

Greg said:


> Imagine what Temptor would have been like this afternoon? 55*F and partly sunny skies.



Stop trying to make me cry...


----------



## Geoff (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> IMO, a place like Nashoba Valley can put that in and make a killing. They own the land and they have the location. Imagine all the business they can get; summer camps where they already offer swim and volleyball, now they can add dry slope skiing. During winter, they have a race league so they can pull in the adults and kids (thru word of mouth) who want to keep up with the training year round. Lots of potential at that spot.




There was a place called Boston Hills in Andover, Ma that used to have summer skiing.  You skied on clear plastic bristles that were kind of like a push broom turned upside down.  It failed miserably.

Here's a Google Maps image:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...717,-71.093613&spn=0.004924,0.009881&t=k&z=17

Here's the NELSAP page:
http://www.nelsap.org/ma/bostonhills.html


----------



## jack97 (Mar 26, 2008)

Geoff said:


> There was a place called Boston Hills in Andover, Ma that used to have summer skiing.  You skied on clear plastic bristles that were kind of like a push broom turned upside down.  It failed miserably.



Old technology and timing has something to do with it. The UK guys are making things with the rider in mind. The section where they put in bumps doesn't bother me either :wink:.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 26, 2008)

Camelback down here in PA is staying open until April 6th..


----------



## Geoff (Mar 26, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Old technology and timing has something to do with it. The UK guys are making things with the rider in mind. The section where they put in bumps doesn't bother me either :wink:.



Cool!  That technology looks like it has a chance.  Boston Hills had a material that looked like the blue stuff they showed 1/4 of the way into that video clip.

Bromley used to offer turf skiing back in the day.  The ski had a bunch of 4" diameter by 6" wide rollers.  I went a few times in the early 1970's.   Of course, not many places pick rocks the way Bromley did.


----------



## powderman (Aug 4, 2008)

bump


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 4, 2008)

powderman said:


> bump



ahahahahahahaha


----------

