# Kayaking



## una_dogger (Aug 15, 2006)

I'm new to kayaking and would like to learn more about gear. I'm interested in purchasing a kayak in the next 6 months to use on lakes.  

Can anyone recommend a good online source of info (or provide some buying tips here??)

Thanks in advance!!!!

Sabrina


----------



## riverc0il (Aug 15, 2006)

i can't help you much with info as i am also a relative new comer to kayaking. been renting for four seasons now, really really want to own one for flat water but the apartment situation leaves me without any storage space inside or outside. next year will be the year though!

the only advice i have would be to seek out demo days so you can try a few different types of yaks. i have found most of the places that rent yaks have really crappy boats. last year, i got in an excellent boat on lake winnepesauke with a rudder and awesome speed/tracking and it was a completely different experience. made me know instantly i wanted something longer with a rudder without question.


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 16, 2006)

Check with EMS.  They frequently offer demo days.  Although you may have missed your chance now that we closing in on the Fall.  I'm still a new comer too.  We did a demo day down here in CT.  I have been eying the Perception Carolina (w/rudder) for years now.  I have the same space constraints as Riv.  But the house we are closing on has ample space to store a boat and is just is just a few miles from a nice size lake for CT.


----------



## bigbog (Aug 16, 2006)

*....*

Lessons(learned technique) + time paddling...then paddle as much as possible una_dogger, but as rivercOil mentioned, finding boats that aren't inexpensive_junk or not the right fit can be tough if you don't hunt down the right place/shop.
Most well-run places usually have enough good choices so you'll find the right type of fit, or at least something _close_. 
Wherever the place/shop is, get there early!...then you'll get your pick of boats...and will be able to jump to another boat if/whenever you want...
Paddling.Net has a fair number of touring kayakers....that can often offer some advice on brands/models etc.

$.01


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Aug 16, 2006)

I see your in Rut-Vegas but if your in the Stowe area Umiak Outfitters is a great place to check out the options and get info. Super nice people up there.


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 16, 2006)

Find a store in the area that rents or demos kayaks. Demo some boats, just to see what they're all about.

Generally with kayaks it's give and take:
Short kayaks will be wider, slower, turn better, and more stable.
Long kayaks will be narrower, faster, track better, and less stable.

What kind of paddling excites you? I know you said that this is for lakes, but are these big lakes? Do you like covering distance? Do you like sitting relaxing in the middle of the water? Do you like taking pictures? Would you consider taking your dog in it?

There is no one kayak that does it all well, you just have to pick the one that does what you'll be doing the most.

One tip: Splurge on the paddle and get a lighter one - that alone, no matter what boat you paddle, will make kayaking much more enjoyable.

Even though this site is geared more towards sea kayaking it has some good info:
http://www.atlantickayaktours.com/Pages/ExpertCenter/main-expert-center.shtml

Personal experience and example:
I started with a Perception Carolina 14.5 with rudder. I took a kayaking lesson with EMS' kayaking school and that's the boat I paddled. I first bought the 13.5 but realized I wanted the bigger size, so I got the 14.5 and sold the 13.5 to my mom.
I like "getting technical" with my endeavours. The Carolina is a day touring boat (in between recreation and sea kayak), so it fit my interests for entry level - not too much, but not too little and with some room for growth. 
After a year of paddling on the LI sound, lakes, and some RI sea I taught myself how to roll my kayak. I felt I was reaching the limit of my boat and wanted more. 
This year I bought a used fiberglass Wilderness Systems Arctic Hawk sea kayak - very fast and long boat.
Now I want a surf kayak for playing in the waves... it just never ends


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 16, 2006)

Another thing about buying kayaks.

When figuring out the price think about the extras you will have to get.

At least:
Paddle: $80-$300
PFD: $40-$140
Car rack: $150-$350


Extras:
Paddle float
Bilge pump
Paddle leash
Bilge sponge
Dry bags and containers
Spray skirt
...it goes on...


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 16, 2006)

cbcbd said:


> Find a store in the area that rents or demos kayaks. Demo some boats, just to see what they're all about.
> 
> Generally with kayaks it's give and take:
> Short kayaks will be wider, slower, turn better, and more stable.
> ...



From what you said in your post, you outgrew your boat.  Do you feel that it was "the right" boat to grow with?  The 14.5 w/rudder is the one I want.


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 16, 2006)

Grassi21 said:


> From what you said in your post, you outgrew your boat.  Do you feel that it was "the right" boat to grow with?  The 14.5 w/rudder is the one I want.


Ok, this is my opinion on the subject.

The Carolina will not bore you and will give you plenty of room for growth. The secondary stability (how far you can tilt the kayak before it capsizes) is adequate enough for you to lean the kayak when on the surf and to do some more "advanced" strokes, but is still good enough so you can just sit in it and not worry that if you're not paying attention for one second you'll go over. And like I mentioned, you can roll this kayak pretty easily if you learn the right technique - so it'll keep you pretty busy for a while. Anything less in size (other than white water and surf kayaks) will be too wide to attempt a roll if you ever wish to learn and won't really challenge you as far as kayaks are concerned.

The rudder is nice and is good for long cruising paddles, but it's not necessary if you want to learn how to turn and correct your kayak using strokes and leaning. At first you might feel like you can't live without it... and then you learn how to paddle   (I know, I sound a little snobbish here). The rudder is usually and extra $100 on the price.  If you want one then get it, if not you can always order a rudder later and put it on yourself.

Now, I'm going to stop talking... I've come to realize that it doesn't matter what one thinks, usually people have already made up their mind and just want a little bit of reassurance before they go for it 
So, go to the store, sit in it, try it out, rent it out if you haven't yet (EMS in Fairfield should rent the Carolina) and go with whatever feels best 
A boat in the same class as the Carolina is the Wilderness Systems Tsunami 140, check that one out also if you haven't.

Also, I think EMS is trying to phase out Perception from their line, so any boats there are probably the last ones. Not too long ago they had a major clearance sale on Carolina 14.5s, not anymore. If there are any left ask them about this clearance sale and try to get that price - they might give it to you. If you decide on another boat like the Tsunami you can always wait for the fall kayak sale or the big October sale (20% off)... or wait for the rentals to go on sale... anyway... Godspeed  

ps - I did most of my learning and beginning paddling (and learned how to roll) at Pinewood Lake in Trumbull, right down the street from my parents' house.


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 16, 2006)

cbcbd said:


> Ok, this is my opinion on the subject.
> 
> The Carolina will not bore you and will give you plenty of room for growth. The secondary stability (how far you can tilt the kayak before it capsizes) is adequate enough for you to lean the kayak when on the surf and to do some more "advanced" strokes, but is still good enough so you can just sit in it and not worry that if you're not paying attention for one second you'll go over. And like I mentioned, you can roll this kayak pretty easily if you learn the right technique - so it'll keep you pretty busy for a while. Anything less in size (other than white water and surf kayaks) will be too wide to attempt a roll if you ever wish to learn and won't really challenge you as far as kayaks are concerned.
> 
> ...



Don't stop talking.  I hit up these boards for opinions and info.  Your reply was helpful.

Trumbull is a great town.  But we are moving on to Southbury.  Maybe I can take my new 'yak to Lake Zoar (spelling?)?  The wife and I lived on Blachley Road in Stamford for 3 years.  Good times...


----------



## una_dogger (Aug 16, 2006)

Lotsa great info here...thanks!

I have limited experience kayaking so perhaps Kayak lessons are a good idea, there is an EMS here in Rutland so I will check them out.

As for waterbodies, my BF MichaelJ and I kayaked for three hours last weekend here in VT on the Chittendon Reservoir. It was very windy and the water choppy and rough. I had a short kayak (not sure size) and he had a longer one. Neither had rudders.  Although I thoroughly enjoyed the experience, the paddling in rough water seemed pretty tough in the short kayak.  Once back at the boat landing I hopped in to Michael's longer kayak and I liked it ALOT better. These were probably "recreational" grade kayaks as they were rentals.  (Michael if you are reading this please feel free to jump in with any other details you recall that may be relevant here.)

I will probably do most of my kayaking on big lakes here in the area, like the Chittendon; or on slow moving rivers...flatwater paddling....for now.

I'd be happy to find a decent step-above-entry-level kayak package to start with; even a used one, and then take if from there as my interest level and proficiency increases. It would be GREAT to take my pups along for a ride, but I don't know how realistic that is.

Thanks again for the great advice.


----------



## Mike P. (Aug 16, 2006)

Nothing new to add, definietly try the EMS Demo days & no boat is the boat.

We have two, a 10 foot 34 pound Walden & an almost 17' foot two seater with room for a small child seat.  the big boat definetly rides better in bigger lakes but it's hard to get on & off the car solo.

I did take the small boat across Barneget Bay in 2004 though, the Spray Skirt was a big help, not so much with water actually coming in (a little bit) but mentally I knew the inside of the boat was almost waterproof.

We store the boats in our garage over the two cars so we just lower them onto the roof.


----------



## MichaelJ (Aug 17, 2006)

Hmm ... I do agree, the longer kayak was a better handler. It did much better in the "surf" than I expected. The worst was right at the beginning, just tiny whitecaps out on the reservoir, maybe swells totalling around 8-10 inches in height but smooth enough to ride through?

The kayaks we had were both by AquaTerra. You had the shorter "Acadia" model. I don't remember the name of the one I had.

I think a comfy seat and especially good foot posts are a key thing. Either being off leads right to a sore back. The right length paddle, too. Beyond that, I think it just has to be tried out for handling in the water. I don't know enough to say anything more without just BS'ing!


----------



## una_dogger (Aug 17, 2006)

Actually, I remember yours was the Acadia...don't ask my how I remember such random and pretty useless info..


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 18, 2006)

Grassi21 said:


> Don't stop talking.  I hit up these boards for opinions and info.  Your reply was helpful.
> 
> Trumbull is a great town.  But we are moving on to Southbury.  Maybe I can take my new 'yak to Lake Zoar (spelling?)?  The wife and I lived on Blachley Road in Stamford for 3 years.  Good times...


Yep, all good towns in different ways. You were near the cove in Stamford, great area!
Most of the damed lakes in the Housatonic are good for kayaking. There is some good scenic quiet water lakes in Litchfield county and if you want to do some river paddling you can go up north to Falls River and down the Housatonic to the rt 4 junction- awesome!



MichaelJ said:


> Hmm ... I do agree, the longer kayak was a better handler. It did much better in the "surf" than I expected. The worst was right at the beginning, just tiny whitecaps out on the reservoir, maybe swells totalling around 8-10 inches in height but smooth enough to ride through?
> 
> The kayaks we had were both by AquaTerra. You had the shorter "Acadia" model. I don't remember the name of the one I had.


I think Aquaterra is Perception, who makes the Acadia kayaks. They have them in different sizes, 11.5 and 13. I think the older model Acadias were 12 and 12.5.

Longer kayaks will usually have more of a v-shaped hull (what affects primary stability - how tippy it feels when you're sitting on the boat), more of a chine (what affects secondary stability - how far you can lean the kayak before it capsizes), and be narrower.  When going through surf and waves the best way is to fight them head on (or turn around and surf them!!  ). With a narrower boat you can cut right through the wave.  If you're sideways to the wave having a narrower and more V-shaped hull will allow you to keep your kayak upright (by twisting at your hips) on the waves and swells. Flatter bottomed kayaks won't tilt easily against the wave and will roll sideways with the angle of the wave - if this is a steep wave it'll just flip you right over - bad 



MichaelJ said:


> I think a comfy seat and especially good foot posts are a key thing. Either being off leads right to a sore back. The right length paddle, too. Beyond that, I think it just has to be tried out for handling in the water. I don't know enough to say anything more without just BS'ing!


There are and should be 3 points of contact on the boat for better stability - your seat, foot pegs, and your thighs. Some kayaks come with thigh pads on the sides of undersides of the coaming, others you can just add some sticky foam to it for comfort or buy pre-made thigh pads. 
A comfortable seat is nice but what should really matter more is your sitting position. If you're sitting in the optimal sitting position - upright(even leaning a little forward when paddling more aggressively), legs bowed out to sides, balls of your feet on the pegs with your heels connecting to make a V - you shouldn't need too much of a hardcore cushy seat. It's more about pressure points. A lot of touring kayakers (many hours on the yak) use just a foam pad for the bottom and a not very complicated back/lumbar brace. It's different for everybody and that's why you'll find tons of people talking about custom outfitting their kayak to perfectly fit the shape of their body. You just have to figure that out for yourself.

But anyway... this really doesn't need to be as complicated as I might make it sound.  Paddle some boats, pick one, and get out there!!


----------



## Mike P. (Aug 21, 2006)

Our 17' is a AquaTerra Jocasse, it's almost like a canoe but I like you it paddles better than the shorter single person Walden.  It's also has a better seat & pegs IMO.


----------



## BeanoNYC (Aug 23, 2006)

A buddy of mine is in the Marines.  He just got transfered out to California after his 3rd tour in the Middle East since 9/11.  He's a big surfer and is having fun out there on his board.  He's letting me use his Cobra (not sure which model yet, but it's made for surf and is 9') indefinitely.  

I live 350 yards from the Atlantic Ocean.  I'm really excited to pick this bad boy up and get going with it.  I have plenty of experience out on the surf with practically everything from bare body to boards but never on a kayak.  

My shoulder surgery has been put off until next summer and the doctor told me to exercise it as much as possible so this will be my exercise of choice. 

 Anyone have any tips on surf kayaking?


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 23, 2006)

BeanoNYC said:


> Anyone have any tips on surf kayaking?


Learn how to roll 

...really, you'll need it. It's not intuitive and I suggest taking a class.
EMS has a kayaking school location in LI:
emskayak.com
I'm actually going to call them tomorrow to set up a whitewater lesson.

I want to get into surf kayaking, but I just bought a new boat this year... maybe next season.  I've played in the surf a little with my sea kayak and day touring kayak.  it's a rush, but you can't really surf big stuff with those long boats without going into a nosedive.


Oh yeah, and as for the shoulder... kayaking is good shoulder exercise, but it can be dangerous for your shoulder if you're not careful about your exercising and how you do your strokes (some strokes have a correct way of doing them in order to protect your shoulder and avoid injury).
.  
Go here for a little primer on kayaking and shoulder injuries:
http://www.performancevideo.com/shoulder_dislocations_in_sea_kayaking

But more importantly, exercise for kayaking, check out this link:
http://www.performancevideo.com/shoulder_exercises_for_sea_kayaking


----------



## BeanoNYC (Aug 24, 2006)

CB....it's a sit on top kayak...Do I need to roll with that?


----------



## JimG. (Aug 24, 2006)

Anyone watch "Stunt Junkies" last night? There was a piece on a pro kayaker who specializes in world record waterfall drops. REALLY SICK STUFF. They showed a tape of his world record 98 foot drop taken from his helmet cam. It was one intense video. I got totally amped up just watching it. The guy was amazing. He was always in control and was meticulous about his planning and execution. Yet he was always riding that ragged edge.

Very impressive.


----------



## BeanoNYC (Aug 24, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Anyone watch "Stunt Junkies" last night? There was a piece on a pro kayaker who specializes in world record waterfall drops. REALLY SICK STUFF.



I tivo'd it but haven't seen it yet.  I saw the interstitial for it while watching Mythbusters right before that. Actually I haven't finished watching the Mythbusters either and it was really good up to what I watched.


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 24, 2006)

BeanoNYC said:


> CB....it's a sit on top kayak...Do I need to roll with that?


I'm not that familiar with sit on tops and paddled one 3 years ago.  If it's easy to get back on if you flip then you don't really need to learn how to roll it. 

But I imagine you could roll it if you wanted to.  You can roll waveskis:

http://www.waveski.info/video/eskimo_roll.mpg


----------



## bigbog (Aug 25, 2006)

*.....from fan of Tao Berman videos/DVDs*

Tao's a fine kayaker,
 He really knows how to _read_ the water......which is crucial.
If you haven't, pick up a few dvds with him in them..."Twitch", "Twitch V"***...etc.  Great paddling stuff...but more importantly, remote, very beautiful, often not easy to paddle- creeks/streams/rivers.

*Might sound it, but not an advertiser;-)
Steve


----------



## BeanoNYC (Aug 25, 2006)

I picked up a pfd at the store yesterday then went to pick up my buddy's kayak.  It's a  cobra strike   The only visible problems were a broken footstrap (stern side) and an exposed hole (supposed to be there but I'm assuming with a cap of some sort; about the size of a dime.  Do you think it's some kind of bilge hole?  It's centered on the bow of the boat)

I fixed the strap by bolting a cut leather belt to the footrest.  The hole was plugged up with duct tape for now.  If I can't find an original replacement, I think I'll use a seacock to seal it up.  There was a little bit of water inside the hull of the kayak after taking it out.

Well, by now you know I took it out on the ocean last night just before sunset.  What a great time!!!!  I have a lot to learn about paddling and surfing in the waves though!  I got trashed quite a few times even though the waves were only thigh high.  Unfortunately there was an onshore wind and the tide was coming up so there was quite some washout.  I'm going to the kayak store to buy a helmet today as that sucker ended up on my head for EVERY wipeout.  I've been having day-nightmares about me getting knocked out on the ocean...a thing this former lifeguard would like to avoid with a little common sense.  I also hope to find a book or video, just to get me started until I can find a good instructor or make friends with an experienced surf kayaker/surf skier in town.  FUN FUN FUN!!!!!


----------



## cbcbd (Aug 25, 2006)

Damn, Beano, I am so jealous!! 

That boat looks like it rocks on the waves. Does that hole go into the inside of the hull or does it go completely through the kayak? I've seen sit on tops with holes through the bottom for drainage, but if this hole is just dumping water into the inside of the kayak then that's bad.

Oh man, next season I'll so be out there!!


----------



## JimG. (Aug 25, 2006)

bigbog said:


> Tao's a fine kayaker,
> He really knows how to _read_ the water......which is crucial.
> If you haven't, pick up a few dvds with him in them..."Twitch", "Twitch V"***...etc.  Great paddling stuff...but more importantly, remote, very beautiful, often not easy to paddle- creeks/streams/rivers.
> 
> ...



That's him...a real pro. 

The falls he ran for the "Stunt Junkies" segment were actually 3 falls that dropped a total of 140 feet. They were right at the downstream release point for a dam. Each fall was progressively bigger and nastier and the water volume was insane, something like 900 cfs. These falls were cranking!

This kid hiked in to inspect everything and had his line chosen before a toe got wet. He went so far as to throw logs into the falls to see where rocks were and how the logs broke apart. None of the logs made it to the bottom of any of the falls and most were splintered.

He picked a pool just upstream from the first fall and dropped in out of a helicopter. I was expecting chaos, but he was cool and smooth and calculating. No wasted strokes. He missed his line for the last fall and wound up free falling the last 40 feet. But he was so well prepared it didn't matter. He lost his paddle in the end, but made it through unscathed.

Really amazing.


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 25, 2006)

They are rerunning this episode of Stunt Junkies as we speak.  It better be all its cracked up to be.  ;-)


----------



## bigbog (Aug 25, 2006)

*....Tao & Co...*

Grassi....
 ;-) To be honest, in comparison to the nice DVDs, the TV show's quite brief (putting it mildly)...but that's what it was anyways....  So if you paddle somewhat often, you have to remind yourself that the show's for the average, overweight Joe-Public...half of which, more than likely, wants some carnage.....


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 25, 2006)

bigbog said:


> Grassi....
> ;-) To be honest, in comparison to the nice DVDs, the TV show's quite brief (putting it mildly)...but that's what it was anyways....  So if you paddle somewhat often, you have to remind yourself that the show's for the average, overweight Joe-Public...half of which, more than likely, wants some carnage.....



From a guy who has logged a grand total of 3 or 4 hours in a kayak, I was impressed by the show.  If what you have to say about the DVD is true, it must be some cool S.  :blink:


----------



## BeanoNYC (Aug 25, 2006)

cbcbd said:


> Damn, Beano, I am so jealous!!
> 
> That boat looks like it rocks on the waves. Does that hole go into the inside of the hull or does it go completely through the kayak? I've seen sit on tops with holes through the bottom for drainage, but if this hole is just dumping water into the inside of the kayak then that's bad.
> 
> Oh man, next season I'll so be out there!!



The whole is supposed to be there.  You get a tiny bit of water in the hull while out in the surf and this is to drain it.  I went to a local kayak store and got a stopper for it.  The wholes straight through are in the cockpit which creates that self bilging effect. 

 I went out again today, it was pretty flat but we had an offshore wind from the north to smooth the waves over which was nice.  Yes...unlike the rest of the east coast the beaches in NYC and LI face south.


----------

