# Rebirth of a hardtail



## bvibert (May 23, 2009)

Here's some pics of the rebuild of my HT after my FS met it's unfortunate demise.

The old HT, stripped and ready for new parts






Ready to be dismantled





A fond farewell





Everything ready to be reassembled





Pile-o-parts





More to follow when I finish...


----------



## Greg (May 23, 2009)

It's gonna look sick when you're done.


----------



## bvibert (May 23, 2009)

I actually got the fork mounted and wheels on last night, but it was too dark by then and the pictures didn't come out...


----------



## thorski (May 23, 2009)

That's a nice jeep.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 23, 2009)

wow..I have trouble putting together Ikea furniture..


----------



## severine (May 23, 2009)

thorski said:


> That's a nice jeep.



That's MY Jeep. 78 Cherokee S.  Once Brian has time to fix it, I will be bidding farewell to the Blazer and that sweet ride will be mine. Only 100K miles on it and it was a 1 owner vehicle before we got it.











Brian's outside in the rain working on the HT again.


----------



## o3jeff (May 23, 2009)

Good choice in HT, I have the same thing, but holy shit that frame is HUGE:-o


----------



## bvibert (May 23, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> Good choice in HT, I have the same thing, but holy shit that frame is HUGE:-o



Yeah, it's a pretty good frame, I rode it for a few years before getting the FS as a hand-me-down.  It is a bit on the big side, even for me, it's a 23" 

It's finished now.  Luckily I had some new deraileur cable hanging around, so I was able to cable those up using the old housing, which looked to be in decent shape.  Being that the frame is so huge the hydraulic line for the rear brake is a bit on the short side, but I think it'll do.  The only weak link is in the chain, being that it's a shimano, with no power link, I had to break it the old fashioned way.  Those pins aren't supposed to be re-usable, but I didn't have a new one to use, hopefully it'll hold up until I can get a power link.

I couldn't get any pictures of the finished project tonight, because it was too dark when I finished, but I think I took some pics of the progress.  I'll post them later, if they're any good, not that I think any of you really care...


----------



## RootDKJ (May 23, 2009)

I'm pretty good with a wrench, but I don't know if I'd attempt that.


----------



## bvibert (May 23, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I'm pretty good with a wrench, but I don't know if I'd attempt that.



Bikes are really simple machines.  There's a few special tools you need to have to do some jobs, but other than that it's really not that hard.  Just take your time and pay attention to detail and you'll be fine.  There's tons of resources both online (free) and in print to help you out if you're not sure what you're doing.


----------



## RootDKJ (May 23, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Bikes are really simple machines.  There's a few special tools you need to have to do some jobs, but other than that it's really not that hard.  Just take your time and pay attention to detail and you'll be fine.  There's tons of resources both online (free) and in print to help you out if you're not sure what you're doing.


When I was younger, I used to do a lot more bike work.  I'd ride all over town on salvage day scrounging for good spare parts I could strip off bikes people were throwing away.

I think my patience (or lack thereof) would get the best of me now.  Then again, if I just cracked a frame and wanted to get back out right away, I'd probably find a way to get it done.


----------



## bvibert (May 23, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> When I was younger, I used to do a lot more bike work.  I'd ride all over town on salvage day scrounging for good spare parts I could strip off bikes people were throwing away.
> 
> I think my patience (or lack thereof) would get the best of me now.  Then again, if I just cracked a frame and wanted to get back out right away, I'd probably find a way to get it done.



I've always been a tinkerer, I love taking stuff apart to see how it works.  I used to do quite a bit of work on cars, I still do all of our maintenance, but only when necessary.  Working on bike is sooooo much easier than ripping into a car, I love it.

If you used to hack together pieces of bikes then you shouldn't have any problems working on your bike now.


----------



## RootDKJ (May 24, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I've always been a tinkerer, I love taking stuff apart to see how it works.  I used to do quite a bit of work on cars, I still do all of our maintenance, but only when necessary.  Working on bike is sooooo much easier than ripping into a car, I love it.
> 
> If you used to hack together pieces of bikes then you shouldn't have any problems working on your bike now.



I do some maintenance, as needed.  I should really get a bike stand, cause once I start drinking, I get all confused if the bike is upside down or I am:dunce:


----------



## bvibert (May 24, 2009)

Here she is, all finished.





Took her out for her maiden voyage today and she performed well, aside from a rear brake alignment issue.  The disc mount tabs haven't been faced, I thought I'd be alright because of the CPS mounting system that the Avid's use (it's meant to make up for non perfectly aligned disk tabs).  However, the paint that's on the tabs makes the adapter stick out too close to the rotor, so I can't align the caliper correctly.  I also have a warped rotor (that I haven't had much luck straightening) which was actually hitting the washers on the mount since it was so close.  I stopped to re-align it once (while someone else was changing a flat) and bent the rotor a bit with my hands another time and it was alright for the rest of the ride.  I'm gonna file of the paint on the mounting tabs, which should fix my alignment issues.


----------



## Greg (May 24, 2009)

Really looked awesome today. And it seemed to ride well.


----------



## bvibert (May 24, 2009)

Thanks for the props.  It did ride well today, but there's no mistaking that it's a HT.   Maybe it'll be good for my riding, to teach me how to be smooth again, without the FS crutch.

I gotta find the right tire pressure.  It's nice to have it soft so that it sucks up little bumps, but I don't like how wishy washy the rear end is with it too soft.  Of course, the pinch flat sucked too. :roll:


----------



## severine (May 24, 2009)

Now you need to take it down the rock gardens at Meriden so you can see what I was telling you about riding that with a HT. 

Nice job getting that together in such a short time! :beer:


----------



## bvibert (May 24, 2009)

severine said:


> Now you need to take it down the rock gardens at Meriden so you can see what I was telling you about riding that with a HT.



I'll spank the crap out of those rock gardens.


----------



## severine (May 24, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I'll spank the crap out of those rock gardens.


Are you sure that won't be the other way around?


----------



## bvibert (May 24, 2009)

severine said:


> Are you sure that won't be the other way around?



Yes


----------



## WoodCore (May 24, 2009)

Perhaps in your honor we should have at some point this summer a HT only ride?


----------



## Greg (May 24, 2009)

WoodCore said:


> Perhaps in your honor we should have at some point this summer a HT only ride?



I might be down. "Might" being the operative word.

Brian was killing it on the climbs with the HT today. Right on my rear at one point on the way back towards the truck trail, and he won the "Sessions Gravel Loop Challenge" with ease. :lol:


----------



## bvibert (May 24, 2009)

WoodCore said:


> Perhaps in your honor we should have at some point this summer a HT only ride?





Greg said:


> I might be down. "Might" being the operative word.
> 
> Brian was killing it on the climbs with the HT today. Right on my rear at one point on the way back towards the truck trail, and he won the "Sessions Gravel Loop Challenge" with ease. :lol:



Obviously I'm in, as long as it's before I have a chance to build a new FS..


----------



## severine (May 24, 2009)

Greg said:


> I might be down. "Might" being the operative word.
> 
> Brian was killing it on the climbs with the HT today. Right on my rear at one point on the way back towards the truck trail, and he won the "Sessions Gravel Loop Challenge" with ease. :lol:


He told me which climb that was. I am in awe! That's a tiring climb just walking; there's no way I could do that riding my bike right now! Then again, I have zero miles this year so far to y'all's 70+ miles, so that may be why. 

I'm down for a HT only ride. 8)


----------



## MRGisevil (May 25, 2009)

HT FTFW. All you old farts and your jitterbikes. Way to rock it, B!


----------



## Trekchick (May 25, 2009)

severine said:


> Now you need to take it down the rock gardens at Meriden so you can see what I was telling you about riding that with a HT.
> 
> Nice job getting that together in such a short time! :beer:


Last summer, my husband started riding with me once in a while.  We set my FS bike up for him which was waaaaay off for me, so I strictly rode my HT last summer(as well as the SS).
When I got the FS out this spring, I struggled with the hill climbs, but was in awe  on the stump jumps and down hills.


----------



## Trekchick (May 25, 2009)

Does anyone else, besides me, find it humourous that Carrie has been talking about "when brian gets the Jeep running for her" for some time, yet he got a new bike built in ........two days(or was it three?  Gotta be fair to Brain)

Just jerkin your chain Brian....
My husband is building a garage for me to park my car in, which has been a 9 or 10 year project, yet...he has a toy garage complete with power garage door opener for his dirt bikes and snowmobiles.


----------



## bvibert (May 25, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> Does anyone else, besides me, find it humourous that Carrie has been talking about "when brian gets the Jeep running for her" for some time, yet he got a new bike built in ........two days(or was it three?  Gotta be fair to Brain)
> 
> Just jerkin your chain Brian....
> My husband is building a garage for me to park my car in, which has been a 9 or 10 year project, yet...he has a toy garage complete with power garage door opener for his dirt bikes and snowmobiles.



Shhh... You trying to get me in more trouble?? :blink:


----------



## severine (May 25, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> Does anyone else, besides me, find it humourous that Carrie has been talking about "when brian gets the Jeep running for her" for some time, yet he got a new bike built in ........two days(or was it three?  Gotta be fair to Brain)
> 
> Just jerkin your chain Brian....
> My husband is building a garage for me to park my car in, which has been a 9 or 10 year project, yet...he has a toy garage complete with power garage door opener for his dirt bikes and snowmobiles.


It's lost on them: they're men. 

Twould be nice to have air conditioning and heat again, though.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 25, 2009)

Geez  saw this thread title  and thought you GUYS were parents again !!!!!!!!!!!!   LMAO  'nother little potential hardass  in da fold  but noo deal  just 'nother biker story 

But hey Brian nice rebuild job


----------



## severine (May 25, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> Geez  saw this thread title  and thought you GUYS were parents again !!!!!!!!!!!!   LMAO  'nother little potential hardass  in da fold  but noo deal  just 'nother biker story


Bite your tongue!!!!  I'm happy with 2, thank you.


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 25, 2009)

severine said:


> Bite your tongue!!!!  I'm happy with 2, thank you.



I HEAR YA m'dear - Da Queen and I could only count to 2 also !!!


----------



## Trekchick (May 25, 2009)

severine said:


> Bite your tongue!!!!  I'm happy with 2, thank you.


Don't you mean three?


----------



## bvibert (May 25, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> Don't you mean three?



Ha ha


----------



## severine (May 25, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> Don't you mean three?



No. I said I'm happy with 2. I didn't specify _which_ 2.


----------



## SkiDork (May 26, 2009)

for someone who's a Mtn Bike dummy, can you run down the advantages/disadvantages of HT vs ST?

Thanks, Just curious.


----------



## Trekchick (May 26, 2009)

FS will give you more rebound for hopping logs(and other stuff), and will provide more absorption for drops and downhills.

The down side is the rebound of the rear suspension has a tendency to cause a loss of traction on your drive tire on uphills, especially when you're standing.


----------



## bvibert (May 26, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> for someone who's a Mtn Bike dummy, can you run down the advantages/disadvantages of HT vs ST?
> 
> Thanks, Just curious.



I think you have some terminology mixed up.

HT = Hard Tail, that means that it has front suspension, but no rear suspension.

ST = Single Track, which is a type of trail; a track through the woods that is only wide enough for a single rider to fit down.  As opposed to Double Track (DT), which is wide enough for about two riders to go down at once

What you're asking about is FS, which means Full Suspension, that means it has suspension on the front and rear of the bike.  There's numerous advantages to this, most of which is the rear end sucking up bumps and staying in contact with ground more consistently, aiding in traction.  It can also make riding a little less tiring because you don't have to use your legs to absorb the bumps as much.  The disadvantages include the bike generally weighing more, and lost pedaling efficiency since the suspension can flex while pedaling, wasting energy.  Some suspension designs can lessen the energy lost, but it's always there a little I think.


----------



## Greg (May 26, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> FS will give you more rebound for hopping logs(and other stuff), and will provide more absorption for drops and downhills.
> 
> The down side is the rebound of the rear suspension has a tendency to cause a loss of traction on your drive tire on uphills, especially when you're standing.



Never hear of the rebound as being a major advantage. A full suspension will absorb terrain better resulting in a smoother ride. In doing so it keeps the rear tire in more constant contact with the terrain for overall better traction. The rear end of an HT tends to "skip" around especially at speed. The advantages of an HT include lighter weight and better climbing ability, although I've never felt pedal bob on my FS to be much of a problem. In fact, I never use the lockout on climbs for the reason I just mentioned - i.e. better traction.


----------



## SkiDork (May 26, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I think you have some terminology mixed up.
> 
> HT = Hard Tail, that means that it has front suspension, but no rear suspension.
> 
> ...




oh - yeah... LOL - I guess I was thinking of Harley terminology, HT = Hardtail, ST = Softtail...  Thanks for the correction...


----------



## bvibert (May 26, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> oh - yeah... LOL - I guess I was thinking of Harley terminology, HT = Hardtail, ST = Softtail...  Thanks for the correction...



Ha, yeah I didn't think of that.  In that case you're correct, but the Softtail terminology didn't seem to transfer over into the MTB world.


----------



## Trekchick (May 26, 2009)

Greg said:


> Never hear of the rebound as being a major advantage. A full suspension will absorb terrain better resulting in a smoother ride. In doing so it keeps the rear tire in more constant contact with the terrain for overall better traction. The rear end of an HT tends to "skip" around especially at speed. The advantages of an HT include lighter weight and better climbing ability, although I've never felt pedal bob on my FS to be much of a problem. In fact, I never use the lockout on climbs for the reason I just mentioned - i.e. better traction.


I took a short lesson at the local bike shop when I got my FS.

One of the things that he taught us when hopping over a curb stop was to utilize our clipless pedals and rebound........
put down pressure just prior to the hop, then utilize the rebound and clipped in feet to hop over the curb stop.


FYI, concrete curbs hurt worse than logs, when you mess up.


----------



## Marc (May 26, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Ha, yeah I didn't think of that.  In that case you're correct, but the Softtail terminology didn't seem to transfer over into the MTB world.



I do remember "soft tail" and "rear suspension" both being used here and there when full suspension first arrived on the scene.

And I think then there was at least one that was called "soft tail" by the manufacturer, that would be Moots softail that has a low travel suspension, maybe an elastomer?  It has no pivot- it's travel depends on the elastic deflection of the titanium chainstays (the whole frame is titanium).

Here ya go:


----------



## Marc (May 26, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> I took a short lesson at the local bike shop when I got my FS.
> 
> One of the things that he taught us when hopping over a curb stop was to utilize our clipless pedals and rebound........
> put down pressure just prior to the hop, then utilize the rebound and clipped in feet to hop over the curb stop.
> ...



I actually have my rear shock damped enough that rebound probably only hinders my ability to bunny hop with my clipless... good bunny hop technique, though, should be achievable and probably performed in most instances without using your clipless.... that's just asking to have a pedal come out and land your crotch on the stem or top tube.

If there's so little damping on the shock that it lets you rebound with momentum after you've compressed it with your weight... I don't know if I could ride like that... seems like you'd be bouncing out of control.


----------



## bvibert (May 26, 2009)

bvibert said:


> aside from a rear brake alignment issue.  The disc mount tabs haven't been faced, I thought I'd be alright because of the CPS mounting system that the Avid's use (it's meant to make up for non perfectly aligned disk tabs).  However, the paint that's on the tabs makes the adapter stick out too close to the rotor, so I can't align the caliper correctly.  I also have a warped rotor (that I haven't had much luck straightening) which was actually hitting the washers on the mount since it was so close.  I stopped to re-align it once (while someone else was changing a flat) and bent the rotor a bit with my hands another time and it was alright for the rest of the ride.  I'm gonna file of the paint on the mounting tabs, which should fix my alignment issues.



I did a little bit of filing on the disc mount tab last night and the alignment is much better now, the mounting washers are nowhere near the rotor.  I got it lined up pretty good, but I still have a bit of a wobble in that rotor.  I need to spend a little bit of time with a couple of adjustable wrenches to get that straightened out.  I was working on the bike in the driveway last night with a hiking headlamp on, not exactly the best environment to be trying to true a rotor.


----------



## Trekchick (May 27, 2009)

Marc said:


> I actually have my rear shock damped enough that rebound probably only hinders my ability to bunny hop with my clipless... good bunny hop technique, though, should be achievable and probably performed in most instances without using your clipless.... that's just asking to have a pedal come out and land your crotch on the stem or top tube.
> 
> If there's so little damping on the shock that it lets you rebound with momentum after you've compressed it with your weight... I don't know if I could ride like that... seems like you'd be bouncing out of control.



I don't have a ton of rebound, and this lesson was IMO more about learning to appreciate what a FS offers.  The tip that I learned was derived out of my question to the dweeb who was teaching us......."Since the FS is so much heavier, why do people say that it will help on log hops and down hills?"
The tips on utilizing rebound were his answer to that question.

  That being said...I'm waaaaay, not the expert in this area......

I'm hoping to spend more time on my FS this summer and will take your advice into consideration.


----------



## gorgonzola (May 27, 2009)

not sure about all the dampening and rebound mumbo jumbo but i definately preload/release the suspension for going over obstacles and drops, especially when approaching with any speed. its definately cheating a bit but who's counting, might as well take advantage of the suspension!


----------



## Greg (May 27, 2009)

gorgonzola said:


> not sure about all the dampening and rebound mumbo jumbo but i definately preload/release the suspension for going over obstacles and drops, especially when approaching with any speed. its definately cheating a bit but who's counting, might as well take advantage of the suspension!



I can see preloading the fork, but never thought about the rear.


----------



## Grassi21 (May 27, 2009)

The bike looks smooth Brian.


----------



## Marc (May 27, 2009)

gorgonzola said:


> not sure about all the dampening and rebound mumbo jumbo but i definately preload/release the suspension for going over obstacles and drops, especially when approaching with any speed. its definately cheating a bit but who's counting, might as well take advantage of the suspension!



Damping is actually a pretty simple concept, a lot of people misunderstand, probably because of all the confusing terms used in bicycle suspension.

Simple spring motion is just that... think if you had a loose coil spring attached to the ceiling, extended it and let it go.  If it were a perfectly elastic spring, it would remain in motion forever.  That is undamped spring motion.

Of course, no spring is perfectly elastic, and eventually comes to a rest due to energy absorption of the system.

Still though, undamped springs are generally not very useful for suspension.

Think of a car suspension that has really old shocks or struts.  You do the compression test where you lean on one corner and let go.  If the shocks/struts need replacing, the car will bounce up and down for a while.  Shocks and struts are just dampeners... devices that oppose the motion of (damp) the spring.

Coil shocks on bikes have oil dampeners similar to car suspension.  Most of the time the amount of force resisting the motion of the spring is called "rebound."  A fast rebound applies little resistive force resulting in more "bobbing" after the initial compression.  A slow rebound applies a lot of resistive force resulting in less "bobbing" and very damped motion.

Preload is a term typically used to describe the adjustment of the sag of the suspension... which is achieved by changing the spring rate, by either adding pressure to an air shock or changing the length of a coil.

I think most people compress the suspension before a jump naturally, as part of the jumping motion.  There's a lot to discuss behind the physics of that, but it might bore some people around here


----------



## JD (May 27, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> I took a short lesson at the local bike shop when I got my FS.
> 
> One of the things that he taught us when hopping over a curb stop was to utilize our clipless pedals and rebound........
> put down pressure just prior to the hop, then utilize the rebound and clipped in feet to hop over the curb stop.
> ...



I really disagree with this technique.  For your suspension to act like a pogo stick, the suspension has to be tuned so it will ride like one, which is the opposite of the whole point of supension.  Preloading the suspension is something that just happens, not something you should have to think about doing.  Clippless pedals have created the ability to bunny hop badly and get away with it, much like shape skis let people carve w/o great technique.


----------



## Greg (May 27, 2009)

JD said:


> Clippless pedals have created the ability to bunny hop badly and get away with it, much like shape skis let people carve w/o great technique.



I was riding my wife's bike around the yard the other day (platforms) and I was happy to realize I still knew how to bunny hop without clipless. :lol:


----------



## bvibert (May 27, 2009)

I doubt I could bunny hop without clipless, mostly because I've never really tried.


----------



## Trekchick (May 27, 2009)

I'm glad this thread has evolved the way it has.  It's given me a lot to ponder and work on.

Marc, I'm never bored with learning how to ride more efficiently.


----------



## JD (May 27, 2009)

You def. jump off of your feet, but pull the bike up with your arms mainly.  I mean, you end up using your feet to, but in kind of a different way.  You'll point your toes down and push back on the pedals.  It's the tension between your feet pointing back and your hands holding the bar out in front of you that allows you to pick the bike up.  Not by lifting straight up with your feet or bounding the bike off it's suspension who's rebound is so undamped that it springs off the gound, Because then it will sprin g off of every root and rock instead of sucking it up....hard to tell if that makes any sense.


----------



## MRGisevil (May 28, 2009)

B-dizzle, I know I've been riding the drama llama lately and acting a royal punk (come on, you all think I'm friggin' hysterical and love my antics), but I'll hop off for a minute and say I'm wicked impressed! Great job restructuring this thing, man. If I took my bike apart it'd probably look like it had been ravaged by a pack of cougars with a palet for metal. 

Anyway, back on the drama llama. Everyone's smelly but me!!!


----------



## o3jeff (May 28, 2009)

MRGisevil said:


> B-dizzle, I know I've been riding the drama llama lately and acting a royal punk (come on, you all think I'm friggin' hysterical and love my antics), but I'll hop off for a minute and say I'm wicked impressed! Great job restructuring this thing, man. If I took my bike apart it'd probably look like it had been ravaged by a pack of cougars with a palet for metal.
> 
> Anyway, back on the drama llama. Everyone's smelly but me!!!



Will you and your trash talk be showing to ride your drama llama Sundayhttp://forums.alpinezone.com/56043-mtb-sunday-5-31-09-a.html? We think your favorite 2knees will be there.


----------



## bvibert (May 28, 2009)

MRGisevil said:


> B-dizzle, I know I've been riding the drama llama lately and acting a royal punk (come on, you all think I'm friggin' hysterical and love my antics), but I'll hop off for a minute and say I'm wicked impressed! Great job restructuring this thing, man. If I took my bike apart it'd probably look like it had been ravaged by a pack of cougars with a palet for metal.
> 
> Anyway, back on the drama llama. Everyone's smelly but me!!!



Thanks, it means a lot that you'd break from riding the drama llama just for me.


----------



## bvibert (May 28, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> Will you and your trash talk be showing to ride your drama llama Sundayhttp://forums.alpinezone.com/56043-mtb-sunday-5-31-09-a.html? We think your favorite 2knees will be there.



Good question Jeff, what say you drama llama??


----------



## MRGisevil (May 28, 2009)

you're tripped out of your head if you think I'm getting up at 5:30 on a Sunday to go riding with you smelly losers!

That being said........may bee.


----------



## Greg (May 28, 2009)

MRGisevil said:


> you're tripped out of your head if you think I'm getting up at 5:30 on a Sunday to go riding with you smelly losers!
> 
> That being said........may bee.



Beauty sleep is overrated. But then again in your case, please sleep in.


----------



## bvibert (May 28, 2009)

MRGisevil said:


> you're tripped out of your head if you think I'm getting up at 5:30 on a Sunday to go riding with you smelly losers!
> 
> That being said........may bee.



Looks like there's going to be an 8am start time too, plenty of time for you to get some extra rest.


----------



## bvibert (Jun 1, 2009)

bvibert said:


> The only weak link is in the chain, being that it's a shimano, with no power link, I had to break it the old fashioned way.  Those pins aren't supposed to be re-usable, but I didn't have a new one to use, hopefully it'll hold up until I can get a power link.



I knew I'd forget about this and it would bite me in the ass. 

I went to pedal hard on Sunday and the chain just pulled apart.  I took a link out and put it back together, reusing another pin... :roll:  One of these days I'll get a quick link...

Aside from that the bike seems to be holding up well.


----------

