# How would you handle this?



## uphillklimber (Dec 10, 2006)

x


----------



## Greg (Dec 10, 2006)

I would have handled it similarly. Teenagers can be truly obnoxious at times. Just part of being a teenager I guess, but I will encourage my daughters to be a bit more respectful of others.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Dec 10, 2006)

UHK: What you did was right on target. Bad behavior must not go unrecognized .


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 10, 2006)

I would have grabbed his ipod, removed the tape in it and replaced it with "Christmas with Barry Manilow"  :lol:


----------



## ajl50 (Dec 10, 2006)

Why does it matter that it was a young kid on a snowboard. If it was an older man ( say one much bigger than you) who did the same thing would you and those on the board who agree have done the same thing? I bet not. I'm not a big fan of jackass teenagers but I also don't have a big heart for older people who act paternalistic all the time. If it was an older man (or another woman) I'm willing to bet none of you would have said a thing. I've been run into plenty by older jerks and young jerks and guess what- I find the younger kids WAY more likely to say sorry and ask if everything is ok. So...don't give me this "teenagers can be obnox. sometimes" as a justification for asking for an apology. I just think you are all conditioned to think that you are right all the time whenever a teenager is involved. Maybe he did say sorry and your wife didn't hear. Maybe he's just learning. Maybe "I was almost wiped out" was a little dramatic. Maybe he tripped. My point is - I think you all responded the way you did because you have a preconceived notion of a snowboarding teenager that judges this kid before anything happens. Remove that, change the actor and guess what..."oh it was just a little mistake."
whatever...I have to go learn tax.


----------



## Chris I (Dec 10, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I would have grabbed his ipod, removed the tape in it and replaced it with "Christmas with Barry Manilow"  :lol:




tape in an ipod?!! :smile:


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 10, 2006)

uphillklimber said:


> So I turned and faced these guys and said, loudly: "You mean he ran into you and never even apologized!" He replied, "maybe you didn't here me but I did apologize, I'm sorry". To which I replied "you made sure she felt you, make sure she hears you apologize."


i would have handled the situation completely different and pretty much opposite. folks that have disregard for other people are not going to listen to other people and your statement might actually escalate a situation (especially considering you didn't address the person that made the incident but rather made a comment to your wife intending it to be over heard by the offending party... kind of condescending in my opinion. if you got a problem with someone, i find telling the person directly is a better approach.). personally, in a no harm done situation with a punk kid doing something they shouldn't, i just try to distance myself as far away as possible with no comment. they aren't going to listen or care any ways, if they cared, they probably would not have let the incident happen in the first place.


----------



## rob56789 (Dec 10, 2006)

It was probably just an accident everybody needs to take a "chill pill" and just have fun.  I'm sure everyone here has accidently bumped into someone on a lift line or anywhere, accidents happen, no harm no foul.


----------



## Greg (Dec 10, 2006)

ajl50 said:


> Why does it matter that it was a young kid on a snowboard. If it was an older man ( say one much bigger than you) who did the same thing would you and those on the board who agree have done the same thing? I bet not. I'm not a big fan of jackass teenagers but I also don't have a big heart for older people who act paternalistic all the time. If it was an older man (or another woman) I'm willing to bet none of you would have said a thing. I've been run into plenty by older jerks and young jerks and guess what- I find the younger kids WAY more likely to say sorry and ask if everything is ok. So...don't give me this "teenagers can be obnox. sometimes" as a justification for asking for an apology. I just think you are all conditioned to think that you are right all the time whenever a teenager is involved. Maybe he did say sorry and your wife didn't hear. Maybe he's just learning. Maybe "I was almost wiped out" was a little dramatic. Maybe he tripped. My point is - I think you all responded the way you did because you have a preconceived notion of a snowboarding teenager that judges this kid before anything happens. Remove that, change the actor and guess what..."oh it was just a little mistake."
> whatever...I have to go learn tax.


An apology was in order and I would have expected one too, and would have said something if my wife didn't get one, regardless of age and/or sliding device.



riverc0il said:


> i would have handled the situation completely different and pretty much opposite. folks that have disregard for other people are not going to listen to other people and your statement might actually escalate a situation (especially considering you didn't address the person that made the incident but rather made a comment to your wife intending it to be over heard by the offending party... kind of condescending in my opinion. if you got a problem with someone, i find telling the person directly is a better approach.). personally, in a no harm done situation with a punk kid doing something they shouldn't, i just try to distance myself as far away as possible with no comment. they aren't going to listen or care any ways, if they cared, they probably would not have let the incident happen in the first place.



Of course, anything said is not going to have any effect in terms of altering future behavior and it's not really anyone else's responsibility to do that, but saying something to let them know you're annoyed will at least get it off one's chest so to speak. Better than stewing about it the whole lift ride up, or during the next run...


----------



## ajl50 (Dec 10, 2006)

Greg said:


> An apology was in order and I would have expected one too, and would have said something if my wife didn't get one, regardless of age and/or sliding device.
> 
> 
> Ok...well I don't think that deep down the majority feel that way.  I think they assume a great deal about the situation because of the character they seen in front of them and act according to those assumptions.
> ...


----------



## Gpaul (Dec 10, 2006)

My fuse is REAL short, so it humbles me when I see BIG guys "chilling".  I think the martial arts teach to be patient above everything, until life or death situation, and I agree with this.

Hope I can do as I say when it happens to me!


----------



## FridayHiker (Dec 10, 2006)

I would have said something, but been more direct about it, as Rivercoil suggests.  And ajl50, you're right.  I might be more likely to let it slide if it were an adult, but I think it's a little unfair to assume that it's because I hold a grudge against teenagers.  It's actually because as the parent of two kids (not yet teenagers, but close to adolescence) who are sometimes off skiing unsupervised, if one of my kids did something rude -- even if unintentional -- and didn't immediately address it appropriately, I would ABSOLUTELY hope that someone would call them on it.  

Call that maternalistic or paternalistic if you want.  I'm not Hilary, and I hate to sound hokey, but I just call it being part of the village.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2006)

I think an apology was in order.  I've seen so many out of control snowboarders this season...Ms. TB was run over by a female boarder last weekend.  No apology at all from that one.  On Friday a snowboarder was pulling a jump right into the intersection I was approaching.  And today I was almost plowed over again and the same guy hit the bigo.  I watched as another guy mowed over a five year old kid....and then got :argue: and :uzi: from the mother.  

Not a good scene.  So yeah, folks do need to chill, but folks need to ski and ride in control and be courteous to others by at least helping that person up and asking if they are OK and apologizing.  It leaves a good impression.  Most of the folks are good, but the few who either are rude or have no clue ruin it for a lot.


----------



## TwinTips21 (Dec 10, 2006)

ajl50 said:


> Why does it matter that it was a young kid on a snowboard. If it was an older man ( say one much bigger than you) who did the same thing would you and those on the board who agree have done the same thing? I bet not. I'm not a big fan of jackass teenagers but I also don't have a big heart for older people who act paternalistic all the time. If it was an older man (or another woman) I'm willing to bet none of you would have said a thing. I've been run into plenty by older jerks and young jerks and guess what- I find the younger kids WAY more likely to say sorry and ask if everything is ok. So...don't give me this "teenagers can be obnox. sometimes" as a justification for asking for an apology. I just think you are all conditioned to think that you are right all the time whenever a teenager is involved. Maybe he did say sorry and your wife didn't hear. Maybe he's just learning. Maybe "I was almost wiped out" was a little dramatic. Maybe he tripped. My point is - I think you all responded the way you did because you have a preconceived notion of a snowboarding teenager that judges this kid before anything happens. Remove that, change the actor and guess what..."oh it was just a little mistake."
> whatever...I have to go learn tax.




Couldn't agree more with this post. I have had an older snowboarding women slam into me and break one of my poles and get up and keep going like nothing happened. I have also had a few teenage boys knock into me, and before taking off they would ask relentlessly "are you ok" and would constantly say sorry. Teenagers can be obnoxious sometimes but not as obnoxious as some adults I have seen on the slopes. 

Also one time I hit a small little jump off a rock on the side of a trail. I waited for about 40 seconds until the trail was clear before I hit the little jump. Afterwards a women standing downslope waiting for her children skied over to me and started complaining that "I could have crushed her young ones". The whole time i was very cautious and waited to make sure the landing was clear and she still had to be a bitch. 


I think most of the adults who posted in here are prejudice against an age group. This is no less severe than being prejudice against an African American.


----------



## bigbog (Dec 10, 2006)

*......*



thetrailboss said:


> .....Not a good scene....


 Agreed...but I really don't think *UHK* permanently damaged a future leading Nobel Prize winner's psyche(sp??)!!..:lol:


----------



## FridayHiker (Dec 10, 2006)

Not sure I agree with the generalization that they're more polite.  Like ANY age group, there are good and bad apples.  Some are, some aren't.  

I'm reminded of a day when I was chaperoning our kids' school ski program last year.  There was a HS race that day, and the kids (skiers, not snowboarders) from a HS ski team an hour or so south of us skied up and stopped about 50 yards up the hill from where our ski group was.  It was a black diamond trail; there was a jump above our group, and one of their group skied down a bit and got his camera out, while the rest of the kids waited.  They saw us, and we saw them, and we figured they were waiting for our instructor to finish up his spiel and for us to clear out before they started photographing their jumps.  

Apparently not.  While the instructor was still talking, Skier number one started on down, took the jump, got his picture taken airborne, wiped out in somersault fashion when he landed, and came very close to wiping out a group of ten 8-11yos.  Why ANYONE would have even considered not waiting is beyond me.  Not one of those kids said a word to ANYONE in our group, despite the fact that the kid had come within 5' of the group.  An apology, and maybe a "Not the brightest thing I've done all day" would have gone a long way toward changing my opinion of that particular group of kids, but none was offered.

Like I said, if one of my kids EVER did something like that and didn't acknowledge it, I would definitely appreciate someone giving him/her a talking-to.  You want to take risks?  Go for it.  But don't put others at risk.

ETA:  I would have been just as ticked off it it had been members of the AARP or the Red Hat Society.  Age has nothing to do with it.  Failure to acknowledge the event does.  And when a teenager DOES cut me off or run into me and makes a point to apologize, I truly appreciate it.  And I've been known to mention it to their mother, if I know their mother (not that something happened, but that their kid went out of the way to be polite).  :lol:



			
				TwinTips21 said:
			
		

> I think most of the adults who posted in here are prejudice against an age group. This is no less severe than being prejudice against an African American.



Sorry, but this is a pretty poor analogy.  Minors are inherently different, as is evident by the fact that they are treated quite differently by the laws and Constitution of this country.  They can't vote, many can't drive, they can't sign contracts, they can't be punished as adults, etc. etc. etc.  Racial discrimination is quite different, and it borders on insulting to compare the two.


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 10, 2006)

My take on this is that people tend to over react to the "you crossed my line" or "you knocked me down" thing.  Skiing is a sport with plenty of assumed risk.  The number of times some gaper freaks out because I ski past them when they've bailed left or right on a trail is innumerable.  I've been taken out while standing on the side of the trail as well.  However, every time someone bumps into you or skis/rides near you, it's not an assault on your person and your manhood/womanhood isn't at stake.  It's a sport, if you can't take the knocks, get off the hill.

On top of that, it sounds as if the incident in question was a "near miss" or barely touching as opposed to a total wipe out situation.  If you didn't even know whether or not your wife got tagged, it doesn't sound like that big a deal.  Frankly, why didn't your wife speak up directly to the assailant if she felt slighted by the lack of apology?

The kid was probably mortified with embarassment for decking in front of the whole line and his friends.  Sounds like he mumbled an apology that wasn't heard.  I think we could all use a little zen meditation from time to time.  Just because someone touches me while skiing and doesn't apologize in a manner that suits me doesn't mean we need to draw pistols at dawn or that I have jump all over him in a public manner.  I say, no harm no foul.  Keep skiing.


----------



## maplevalleymaster (Dec 10, 2006)

I probably would have handled the situation similarly also. Last year, a few boarders ran into a women going down an open trail while they had just merged onto it from a closed trail. It was a fiasco. Ski patrol was there and her husband was screaming at everyone including people who had nothing to do with it.

I had an abnoxious teenager story today. A few boarders were online on the Sachem Quad at Okemo. They went to the line, but one of their buddies wasn't ready yet. They just stood there not letting anyone through for a few minutes. Later, since they were the chair in front of me, they started to bounce the chair.


----------



## TwinTips21 (Dec 11, 2006)

FridayHiker said:


> Racial discrimination is quite different, and it borders on insulting to compare the two.



How so? You realize someone is a teenager by their looks, and you discriminate against them because of it. Granted this is on an incredibly smaller scale but it is still the same idea. That being said, I don't think any type of discrimination should be had.


----------



## FridayHiker (Dec 11, 2006)

TwinTips21 said:


> How so? You realize someone is a teenager by their looks, and you discriminate against them because of it. Granted this is on an incredibly smaller scale but it is still the same idea. That being said, I don't think any type of discrimination should be had.



Not true.  I have no issue whatsoever with polite, respectful teenagers and treat them no differently from how I treat polite, respectful adults.  People who are victims of racial prejudice are offered no such benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Mapnut (Dec 11, 2006)

FridayHiker said:


> Not true.  I have no issue whatsoever with polite, respectful teenagers and treat them no differently from how I treat polite, respectful adults.  People who are victims of racial prejudice are offered no such benefit of the doubt.



Furthermore, a teenager is an "adult-in-training" and it's appropriate to help them learn.  I see plenty of adults (especially drivers) who were obviously never scolded for rudeness when they were young.

To the people who said "accidents happen, just chill", we have a skiers' responsibility code, and when you run into someone below you it's always your fault, so an apology is always called for.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Chris I said:


> tape in an ipod?!! :smile:



Ok, ok...I just buy them I don't use them....maybe you can help me figure out how I am supposed to get one of my albums in that little disc player in my car?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2006)

I think that people are now missing the point.  Folks are focusing on the "teenager part" and not the main point which Mapnut stated:



Mapnut said:


> To the people who said "accidents happen, just chill", we have a skiers' responsibility code, and when you run into someone below you it's always your fault, so an apology is always called for.



Intentional or unintentional, such behavior is not appropriate on the slopes.  True that one accepts the hazards of skiing or riding, and that many people of various abilities and ages are on the slopes.  But neither of these provides a license for one to crash into people.  

We all have a duty of care on the slopes and when someone fails to do so, they need to be reminded of that duty or, at the very least, they need to recognize that they have failed to do so and at least apologize.  In the original scenario put forward, if the person was apologetic to the wife, then that would be a different story.  But clearly there was no apology or any effort to remedy to problem.  

We should aim to live and ski/ride in a civil society.  We all have a duty to make this happen.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

uphillklimber said:


> So I turned and faced these guys and said, loudly: "You mean he ran into you and never even apologized!" He replied,* "maybe you didn't here me but I did apologize, I'm sorry". *To which I replied "you made sure she felt you, make sure she hears you apologize."



That would've been enough for me..  I would've accepted the apologie


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Mapnut said:


> To the people who said "accidents happen, just chill", we have a skiers' responsibility code, and when you run into someone below you it's always your fault, so an apology is always called for.



*No way...* if someone comes in from the side at high speed or jumps into a line then I believe it's the that persons fault...

Too many people use this "rule" as a crutch to do whatever the F they want to do...

*Don't sleeze lines...* Look uphill before you enter a line and don't come sweeping into someones line from behind....

I've had people jump in my bump lines while I'm skiing and I've hit them and I've told them it wasn't my fault and I don't give a crap what they say...
I've had people sleeze my line from behind... and end up in front of me and I've hit them and it's not my fault as well...


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

To the people who said "accidents happen, just chill", we have a skiers' responsibility code, and when you run into someone below you it's always your fault, so an apology is always called for.[/QUOTE]

I don't mean to highjack this thread, but can we talk about this rule in the skier's responsibility code?

I can't tell you the number of times I'm skiing a line of bumps down the side of a trail and somebody just bails from the center of the trail and makes a bee-line for my side of the slope.  There's no way I could have foreseen the radical direction change that person has taken at that very instant.  If they had just looked up the hill for a moment, they wouldn't have skied directly into my path. Now, I always manage to veer away from them, and I accept that I'm in a better position to make an evasive manoever, but in terms of assigning blame in the event of contact how is this my fault?


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> *No way...* if someone comes in from the side at high speed or jumps into a line then I believe it's the that persons fault...
> 
> Too many people use this "rule" as a crutch to do whatever the F they want to do...
> 
> ...



DMC - You're preaching to the converted, man!


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> DMC - You're preaching to the converted, man!



Your one of the few... watch how this turns ugly quick...


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Your one of the few... watch how this turns ugly quick...



I'm wearing teflon underwear today.


----------



## Greg (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> *No way...* if someone comes in from the side at high speed or jumps into a line then I believe it's the that persons fault...
> 
> Too many people use this "rule" as a crutch to do whatever the F they want to do...
> 
> ...





dmc said:


> Your one of the few... watch how this turns ugly quick...



No. I agree with you. It's not always the uphill slider's fault. I always do a check over the shoulder when changing lines or at trail merges. In fact, I worry more about skiing in front of somebody than I do someone randomly wailing into me from behind.


----------



## cbcbd (Dec 11, 2006)

It never hurts to apologize and you should always do it if you think you did something wrong - in life, not just on the slopes, period.

But the real question is - if you were skiing with a buddy and not your wife, and the buddy got "hit" the same way and didn't really care, would you stand up for him and make whoever hit him apologize? 

People get over-protective of their significant others and kids, it's natural.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Yup...DMC has it right..the code has changed...it's now the "ahead" skier/rider not the "downhill" skier/rider that has the right of way.


----------



## Marc (Dec 11, 2006)

ajl50 said:


> Why does it matter that it was a young kid on a snowboard. If it was an older man ( say one much bigger than you) who did the same thing would you and those on the board who agree have done the same thing? I bet not. I'm not a big fan of jackass teenagers but I also don't have a big heart for older people who act paternalistic all the time. If it was an older man (or another woman) I'm willing to bet none of you would have said a thing. I've been run into plenty by older jerks and young jerks and guess what- I find the younger kids WAY more likely to say sorry and ask if everything is ok. So...don't give me this "teenagers can be obnox. sometimes" as a justification for asking for an apology. I just think you are all conditioned to think that you are right all the time whenever a teenager is involved. Maybe he did say sorry and your wife didn't hear. Maybe he's just learning. Maybe "I was almost wiped out" was a little dramatic. Maybe he tripped. My point is - I think you all responded the way you did because you have a preconceived notion of a snowboarding teenager that judges this kid before anything happens. Remove that, change the actor and guess what..."oh it was just a little mistake."
> whatever...I have to go learn tax.



That's awfully presumptuous of you.  Just because you have an axe to grind is no reason to take it out on UHK.  If there were parts of his story that seemed missing or unclear, perhaps the next step is to ask for clarification of the event rather than assume the worst of UHK and continue your lecture from there.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 11, 2006)

Frankly I think you overreacted to the teen who hit your wife. It doesnt sound like he was being a wise ass or anything. He said he apologized (whether you heard it or not) and didnt come off as an asshole to you afterwards, despite you talking down to him. 

It really actually grinds my gears when people act like you did frankly. You have to understand that skiing involves sliding at a high rate of speed on frozen water. Accidents are going to happen. In your situation it sounds as if he was trying to skid up to his friends, goofed a bit and hit your wife. She didnt even fall over or was hurt in any way, if she had this would be a different story, but in reality she got bumped a bit and nothing more - whats the big deal? A simple watch out or something next time should be all you needed to say, you dont need to be a dick about it. As Riv said, talking down to someone after a situation like this never helps the situation, might not make things worse, but sure leaves the door open for a negative confrontation to ensue.


----------



## Grassi21 (Dec 11, 2006)

I would have smashed him in the teeth, no questions asked.  JUST KIDDING.  

One skill I picked up from my Dad was the art of "the look."  I find the look is usually enough to say you F'ed up without having to get into a verbal altercation.  There was a time in the past when I would have HAD to say something.  Its just not worth it anymore.


----------



## 2knees (Dec 11, 2006)

I dont know, maybe i'm just seeing it from a different angle, but the guy came skidding into the lift que, ducking the ropes, and somehow uphillklimber overeacted?  dont see it.  Yeah accidents happen, people trip and catch edges.  which is exactly why you shouldnt come skidding into any lift que.  Just ski to the back and get in line like a normal person.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

I just keep thinking about a helmetcam video a guy on the Killington board put out last year..
Some guy clipped his wife and he chased the guy down and yelled at him and continued to pursue the guy after he got to the lift...    he was being a total asswipe to the guy and the guy apologized...


----------



## andyzee (Dec 11, 2006)

Here's the skiers responsibility code. No, the down hill skier is not always right. Looking at it, as DMC says, if a skier is entering the trail, it is also his responsibility to look up.

*1.* It is your responsibility to stay in control so that you can stop or avoid objects and other people.
*2. *The people in the front have the right away. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
*3.* Do not stop where you obstruct a trail or where you are not visible from above or from around the bend 
*4.* Whenever you are starting down a hill or merging, look behind you and yield to others. 
*5.* Carry all needed devices to prevent runaway equipment.. 
*6. *Obey all posted signs and warnings. Stay out of areas marked out of bounds. These signs are meant for you. You are not exempt. Stay safe and obey the signs. 
*7.* Before using a lift learn how to load, ride, and unload safely.

I like the last one, how do you learn without using?


----------



## andyzee (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> I just keep thinking about a helmetcam video a guy on the Killington board put out last year..
> Some guy clipped his wife and he chased the guy down and yelled at him and continued to pursue the guy after he got to the lift... he was being a total asswipe to the guy and the guy apologized...


 
Hehe, Spanky protecting his woman


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

2knees said:


> I dont know, maybe i'm just seeing it from a different angle, but the guy came skidding into the lift que, ducking the ropes, and somehow uphillklimber overeacted?  dont see it.  Yeah accidents happen, people trip and catch edges.  which is exactly why you shouldnt come skidding into any lift que.  Just ski to the back and get in line like a normal person.



I agree with 2knees, there was most likely a Slow Down, Congested Area type sign that the snowsport enthusiest in question either didn't see or ignored. Personally, if it's an accident I don't pay much attention to it.


----------



## Brettski (Dec 11, 2006)

What were the lifties doing?

There needs to be more ski patrol, and a lot more lift tickects clipped in my opinion

Sounds like an inexperienced scrub who needs some lesons in ettiquette

And I went looking for skiers responsibility code...I found about 5 different versions

And explain to me about this line thing you are talking about...I always make sure my kids when the stop, stop at the side of the trail to get put of the way...and at hunta, that usually is my line....


----------



## ajl50 (Dec 11, 2006)

LOVE the fire today in this thread. See what happens god when we don't get tons of snow and cold?  
"looks like [a few of us] have a case of the mondays."


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Brettski said:


> And explain to me about this line thing you are talking about...



For instance - if your skiing a line in moguls - your skiing at a good pace..  And someone standing on the side decides to start out onto the trail and gets in your line..  They are at fault...


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

andyzee said:


> Hehe, Spanky protecting his woman




Riiiiiiiiiiiight.... Watching it made me embarassed to be human...


----------



## Marc (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Riiiiiiiiiiiight.... Watching it made me embarassed to be human...



After seeing my parents' dog eat a cat turd straight out of the litter box, there's not a lot that could make me embarassed to be a human.


----------



## SkiDork (Dec 11, 2006)

I saw 2 snowboarders shoving each other at K a few weeks ago.  Seems one cursed the others wife/GF out or something.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> After seeing my parents' dog eat a cat turd straight out of the litter box, there's not a lot that could make me embarassed to be a human.



I think a human actually has to do something embarassing to make it embarrassing to be a human..

Dogs live to eat cat poop....  It's like nonpareils for dogs...


----------



## SkiDork (Dec 11, 2006)

and Horse manure...  They love that stuff!


----------



## Marc (Dec 11, 2006)

And for some reason they think deer shet makes for an attractive perfume for around the neck area.


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

SkiDork said:


> I saw 2 snowboarders shoving each other at K a few weeks ago.  Seems one cursed the others wife/GF out or something.




HA!!!! Now THAT'S funny!!!  lol.  Did they unstrap first or was there a lot of teetering and flailing arms to keep from falling over?


----------



## andyzee (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> I think deer shet makes for an attractive perfume for around the neck area.


 

Marc, you got cut that crap out dude! Oops, sorry wrong thread.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> And for some reason they think deer shet makes for an attractive perfume for around the neck area.



Not so fast......I have a friend that spends the fall collecting Moose t..ds, then puts a nice ribbon on it and some other trimmings and sells them at the local xmas craft fair as "mooseltoe". She sells them all. about 200, every year.

Now back to  "How would you handle this".......


----------



## Marc (Dec 11, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Not so fast......I have a friend that spends the fall collecting Moose t..ds, then puts a nice ribbon on it and some other trimmings and sells them at the local xmas craft fair as "mooseltoe". She sells them all. about 200, every year.



:blink:


----------



## CapeSkier (Dec 11, 2006)

Does anyone besides me think that situations like this (collisions, rudeness, etc.) are getting worse?  Saturday at Sugarbush, visibility was extremely poor on the Mt. Ellen summit, and skiers/boarders were funneling down a narrow chute from the lift. At one point,  two unskilled boarders were going from side to side, literally blocking the entire trail as I happened to come up from behind. (Several other skiers and boarders behind, too). OK, fine.  I tried to pass, announcing "on your right" loudly enough to be heard.  No result. Not even a glance over to see where I was.  It's my responsibility as the uphill passer, so I had to slow down until we got to the bottom of the chute.  The side-to-side, take up the whole slope behavior continued. Finally I was able to make my move safely, announced myself again, and passed.  One of the boarders cut right again, and saw me, then got aggravated that I was there.   I announced myself twice, waited until the trail widened sufficiently, passed in a proper and safe manner, and still had to deal with grief from a boarder who evidently was not comfortable or skilled enough for existing conditions.  I don't care if the boarder was 8 or 80, black, white, or crazy...this person was out of their depth.  Or altitude, as the case may be.  I know the code, I ski the code.  But that doesn't relieve the other guy (downhill) of the responsibility to do two things: Ski or board within your ability, and ski or board within control.  As to the original post...Seems like that boarder didn't do either one of those things, and the party who got hit has every right to be aggravated. Why is it that we are so quick to say "oh well" when somebody's bad behavior injures someone, nearly injures someone, or just wrecks the enjoyment of a rather expensive day?  I'll happily share the mountain.  Let's just all obey the rules, ski or board according to the code, and throw just a little civility into the process.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

CapeSkier said:


> Let's just all obey the rules, ski or board according to the code, and throw just a little civility into the process.



Thinking about it - if I was the snowboarder in the original situation - I would've probably apologized again the snowboarder did just to be cool...

And after UHC said  "you made sure she felt you, make sure she hears you apologize." - I probably would've told him to go F off...


----------



## billski (Dec 11, 2006)

Friday,
So you get a parent medal, and I mean that sincerely.  So many parents (I are one) leave their children rudderless.  That is, they don't instill in them good behavior and manners.  It's not just on the slopes, in America it is prevalant.  No taking turns, no excuse me, no holding the door, helping someone up.  It doesn't have to be on the slopes.  And many parents are just as guilty of rude behavior.

"Manners" after all, are society's rules that help us all get along with each other.   With out them, we are selfish, self-absorbed, inconsiderate Bohemes.

As far as getting chewed out for "almost killing my kids", I attribute that to one of two things.  a) she was wiped out by a Bohemian at least once in her life or, b) what I call the "axe murderer syndrome."  In this case, unknown males are treated as sinister, evil, mother-raping, father-stabbing villians, a threat that she must be on constant guard against.  I run into this syndrome all the time in my town, so much so, that I'm afraid to console the poor child who falls off his bike, for fear of being arrested for child abduction.  Sad statement on where we are going as a society.

Having said all that, our thread-starter was skiing in Bavaria.  Now, don't you remember a different definition of rude over there?  Little old ladies who elbow past you in a line, sliding all over your ski tops, and the ones who cut you off, the lift queues which look like cattle funnels, no "lines", where  you have to fight your way up front by stepping over others.  M:evil:mori:evil:s.....


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

CapeSkier said:


> Why is it that we are so quick to say "oh well" when somebody's bad behavior injures someone, nearly injures someone, or just wrecks the enjoyment of a rather expensive day?



Because lots of us believe in the "no harm-no foul" rule...   And I seriously doubt the guy wanted to hit someone...

Stuff happens.. Get used to it...


----------



## billski (Dec 11, 2006)

CapeSkier said:


> Does anyone besides me think that situations like this (collisions, rudeness, etc.) are getting worse?  Saturday at Sugarbush, visibility was extremely poor on the Mt. Ellen summit, and skiers/boarders were funneling down a narrow chute from the lift. At one point,  two unskilled boarders were going from side to side, literally blocking the entire trail as I happened to come up from behind. (Several other skiers and boarders behind, too). OK, fine.  I tried to pass, announcing "on your right" loudly enough to be heard.  No result. Not even a glance over to see where I was.  It's my responsibility as the uphill passer, so I had to slow down until we got to the bottom of the chute.  The side-to-side, take up the whole slope behavior continued. Finally I was able to make my move safely, announced myself again, and passed.  One of the boarders cut right again, and saw me, then got aggravated that I was there.   I announced myself twice, waited until the trail widened sufficiently, passed in a proper and safe manner, and still had to deal with grief from a boarder who evidently was not comfortable or skilled enough for existing conditions.  I don't care if the boarder was 8 or 80, black, white, or crazy...this person was out of their depth.  Or altitude, as the case may be.  I know the code, I ski the code.  But that doesn't relieve the other guy (downhill) of the responsibility to do two things: Ski or board within your ability, and ski or board within control.  As to the original post...Seems like that boarder didn't do either one of those things, and the party who got hit has every right to be aggravated. Why is it that we are so quick to say "oh well" when somebody's bad behavior injures someone, nearly injures someone, or just wrecks the enjoyment of a rather expensive day?  I'll happily share the mountain.  Let's just all obey the rules, ski or board according to the code, and throw just a little civility into the process.



It's a reflection of what is happening to American society at large.  People are  becoming more isolated from each other, and rudeness has escallated to an epidemic proportion in America.  I'm trying to figure out where in the world I can move to escape this madness but still have good slopes....


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

billski said:


> It's a reflection of what is happening to American society at large.  People are  becoming more isolated from each other, and rudeness has escallated to an epidemic proportion in America.  I'm trying to figure out where in the world I can move to escape this madness but still have good slopes....




Just hit the back country...


----------



## billski (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Just hit the back country...



cha-ching!  best post/idea all week!

(Now my daughters will accuse me of being "anti-social! 8))


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

billski said:


> Friday,
> 
> Having said all that, our thread-starter was skiing in Bavaria.  Now, don't you remember a different definition of rude over there?  Little old ladies who elbow past you in a line, sliding all over your ski tops, and the ones who cut you off, the lift queues which look like cattle funnels, no "lines", where  you have to fight your way up front by stepping over others.  M:evil:mori:evil:s.....



In Europe, rudeness IS the expectation.  You don't see people fighting over having their skis stepped on.  People aren't glaring at each other everytime someone intrudes on their personal space.  You also don't have a bunch of up-tight ski patrollers yelling at you for skiing OB.  There is no OB.  Just "groomed" and "If you die, it's your fault" areas of the mountain.  That's a different issue.

It seems as if Europeans just go with flow more than we do.  Here, if we feel slighted, we want to duel in the street.  Maybe it's because we're a young society and quick to drop the gloves in order to stake our claim in the world.  Seriously, can't we just mellow out?  You're definitely killing my buzz.

I don't have a problem with reminding someone (in a polite manner) that it is impolite to not say "sorry".  Ranting and raving doesn't get us anywhere and we're just as guilty as the originally offending party.  

If the original poster had simply turned around and asked the young whipper-snapper if he had apologized as in, "excuse me, did you say sorry?"  then said adolescent would most likely have looked down at his feet and said "Sorry" louder.  Much more satisfying that puffing up one's chest and throwing in a good measure of aggression.  Instead, the poster is still thinking about this non-incident a day later, the adolescent is now more anti-old person, and the rest of us are sitting around getting our dander up.  Now there's more negativity in the world and global warming will happen that much quicker.

I'm going to F*@# up the first person who writes "Shut up Hippie".


----------



## FridayHiker (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Because lots of us believe in the "no harm-no foul" rule...   And I seriously doubt the guy wanted to hit someone...
> 
> Stuff happens.. Get used to it...



Sorry, but I seriously think that attitude is part of the problem.

When I'm teaching my kids to drive, I am NOT going to tell them that it's no problem that they hit that pedestrian who had the right-of-way in the crosswalk because, well, she didn't get hurt.  If they encounter that situation and drive away from it saying "no harm / no foul", they've got serious issues.  The first of which will be getting around a rural area with no car for a very, very, very long time.  :wink:


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

CapeSkier said:


> Does anyone besides me think that situations like this (collisions, rudeness, etc.) are getting worse?  Saturday at Sugarbush, visibility was extremely poor on the Mt. Ellen summit, and skiers/boarders were funneling down a narrow chute from the lift. At one point,  two unskilled boarders were going from side to side, literally blocking the entire trail as I happened to come up from behind. (Several other skiers and boarders behind, too). OK, fine.  I tried to pass, announcing "on your right" loudly enough to be heard.  No result. Not even a glance over to see where I was.  It's my responsibility as the uphill passer, so I had to slow down until we got to the bottom of the chute.  The side-to-side, take up the whole slope behavior continued. Finally I was able to make my move safely, announced myself again, and passed.  One of the boarders cut right again, and saw me, then got aggravated that I was there.   I announced myself twice, waited until the trail widened sufficiently, passed in a proper and safe manner, and still had to deal with grief from a boarder who evidently was not comfortable or skilled enough for existing conditions.  I don't care if the boarder was 8 or 80, black, white, or crazy...this person was out of their depth.  Or altitude, as the case may be.  I know the code, I ski the code.  But that doesn't relieve the other guy (downhill) of the responsibility to do two things: Ski or board within your ability, and ski or board within control.  As to the original post...Seems like that boarder didn't do either one of those things, and the party who got hit has every right to be aggravated. Why is it that we are so quick to say "oh well" when somebody's bad behavior injures someone, nearly injures someone, or just wrecks the enjoyment of a rather expensive day?  I'll happily share the mountain.  Let's just all obey the rules, ski or board according to the code, and throw just a little civility into the process.




Your forgetting that the Bush only had the Summit lift running. To get to the intermediate terrain they had no choice but to try and navigate "baldy" from the Summit chair. Once North Ridge is running that should greatly reduce the problem you encountered.

Also, yelling  "on your right/left" doesn't seem to work that great anymore. I have found, especially if they are uncomfortable in the terrain, that  doing that usually results in them freaking out and falling right in front of you. Who hasn't been on terrain that maybe was above their ability. . When I see that I try to give them as much space as possible, never had a problem.

That section is so short, I would have just snowplowed behind them, not tried to pass them, as it gets very wide just a few feet further.


----------



## molecan (Dec 11, 2006)

TwinTips21 said:


> How so? You realize someone is a teenager by their looks, and you discriminate against them because of it.



Well,  because EVERYONE who doesen't die when young has been, is, or will be a teenager.


----------



## Brettski (Dec 11, 2006)

All I can add is when last year a boarder litterally took me out of my binding standing in a lift line by crashing into the back of my calves with their board...all I can say was "Dude?  Are you stoned or what?" No apologies...now if it were my wiufe, I might have handled it differently, or at least report them to the lifties, which akin to doing nothing...

So here is the addition...while it didn't hurt then....the next day I was damaged...got some very nice deep bruises from that...

Barreling into a lift line is inexcusable and they should have been warned and have their ticket marked, a second infraction and it should be see'ya

But the someone would need to be there to watch over things...and that ain't happening


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

FridayHiker said:


> Sorry, but I seriously think that attitude is part of the problem.
> 
> When I'm teaching my kids to drive, I am NOT going to tell them that it's no problem that they hit that pedestrian who had the right-of-way in the crosswalk because, well, she didn't get hurt.  If they encounter that situation and drive away from it saying "no harm / no foul", they've got serious issues.  The first of which will be getting around a rural area with no car for a very, very, very long time.  :wink:



I guess I'm just good at seeing the difference between hitting a pedstrian with a SUV versus clipping a ski in a lift line...  :roll: 

To me it's like when someone hits my shopping cart in the supermarket..  Whats the big deal...??  Now if someone slammed their cart into mine - I'd be pissed...

I think the problem is people like YOU don't believe in the "no harm- no foul" thing...

But that's just my opionion...


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Also, yelling  "on your right/left" doesn't seem to work that great anymore. That section is so short, I would have just snowplowed behind them, not tried to pass them, as it gets very wide just a few feet further.



I'm dylsexic...  So it won't work for me...
I ride with a girl who's deaf - so it don't work for her either...

When i seem to get caught up in a crowd - i generally move to the side and let things thin out... Rather then have some guy yell at me for getting in his way...


----------



## 2knees (Dec 11, 2006)

to quote the dis.  Shoulda had an OSTD.

Old School Throw Down.


----------



## CapeSkier (Dec 11, 2006)

Billski, I love your "axe murderer" description.  I've seen it, and it is an apt depiction of your situation.  I think it is an overcompensation for a lack of parental self-esteem (i.e. I live vicariously through my kids and any real-or-imagined threat to them is a threat to me, therefore overblown and overreacted to).   Mother Hen misinterprets something you did, and probably gets angry at herself for not seeing the potential (perceived) threat to her kids.  She then lashes out at you, even though you acted responsibly.  Happens in schoolyards, hockey rinks, soccer fields, and anywhere kids interact.  Lately it has been called Helicopter Parent Syndrome, as though Mommy is in a chopper hovering over her baby's every move.  You didn't do a thing wrong, and I commend you for looking out for others before attempting anything aerial.  Shame on you for not seeing how special Mommy's little dumplings are, and confining your antics to someplace twenty miles away ;-)


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> I'm dylsexic...  So it won't work for me...
> I ride with a girl who's deaf - so it don't work for her either...
> 
> When i seem to get caught up in a crowd - i generally move to the side and let things thin out... Rather then have some guy yell at me for getting in his way...



You can always speed up and scream "WHOA!  I'm totally out of control!!!!"  A huge gap miraculously opens up right in front of you.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> You can always speed up and scream "WHOA!  I'm totally out of control!!!!"  A huge gap miraculously opens up right in front of you.



I can get people to move just by jamming on the edge of my board and going for a loud scraping sound..  Scares the crap out of people...


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> I can get people to move just by jamming on the edge of my board and going for a loud scraping sound..  Scares the crap out of people...



I have to admit it.  That sound causes the hair on the back of my neck to stand up, even when I'm sitting in the chair.


----------



## Mapnut (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> ITo me it's like when someone hits my shopping cart in the supermarket..  Whats the big deal...??  Now if someone slammed their cart into mine - I'd be pissed...
> 
> I think the problem is people like YOU don't believe in the "no harm- no foul" thing...
> 
> But that's just my opionion...



DMC, do you mean that if you bump into someone's cart in the supermarket, you don't say "excuse me"?  Why not, it's so easy.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Mapnut said:


> DMC, do you mean that if you bump into someone's cart in the supermarket, you don't say "excuse me"?  Why not, it's so easy.



I am actually a very polite person... i would totally apologize..  My point is - It's just not a big deal..


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

Mapnut said:


> DMC, do you mean that if you bump into someone's cart in the supermarket, you don't say "excuse me"?  Why not, it's so easy.



The cool thing about Europe is that not only do you NOT apologize, you get to stand there and blow smoke rings at the other guy.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> The cool thing about Europe is that not only do you NOT apologize, you get to stand there and blow smoke rings at the other guy.



yeah - Europe makes a US liftline look like a cakewalk...


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> yeah - Europe makes a US liftline look like a cakewalk...



It's lead, follow or get the F$@# out of the way.  At least the policy is universally accepted.  It's amusing to have 70 year old ladies stomp all over your new K2's.  But I would have felt funny putting a beat-down on her.


----------



## rob56789 (Dec 11, 2006)

I think its crazy that someone actually created this thread to begin with.  People make mistakes the kid probably said sorry and the fact that anybody could be so uptight about that is insane.  Also whoever compared hitting some random pedestrian on the sidewalk with a vehicle and bumping into someone just blew this whole thing way out of properation.


----------



## CapeSkier (Dec 11, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Your forgetting that the Bush only had the Summit lift running. To get to the intermediate terrain they had no choice but to try and navigate "baldy" from the Summit chair. Once North Ridge is running that should greatly reduce the problem you encountered.
> 
> Also, yelling  "on your right/left" doesn't seem to work that great anymore. I have found, especially if they are uncomfortable in the terrain, that  doing that usually results in them freaking out and falling right in front of you. Who hasn't been on terrain that maybe was above their ability. . When I see that I try to give them as much space as possible, never had a problem.
> 
> That section is so short, I would have just snowplowed behind them, not tried to pass them, as it gets very wide just a few feet further.



Yes, it does widen right after that, and that was where I passed.  I probably wasn't clear, but these guys weren't new boarders. I say this because they didn't fall, in very poor visibility and flat light, with uneven snow quality, when others were flopping all over.  I do my best to be patient with new skiers/boarders, because we have all been there at one point or another.  I mean they were bad, in the sense that they were intentionally taking up the entire side-to-side area of the trail, in wide S turns, in the manner of someone who is out of their ability.  And yes, snowplowing and patience pays sometimes...but...I tried my best to pass in the safe and long-prescribed manner, one which has worked for me for 40 years of skiing.  I have to respectfully suggest that sometimes a skier is safer passing someone who can't or won't yield.  By snowplowing behind, we run the risk of becoming involved in that person's own catastrophe if they have a face-plant.  It's a case by case judgement call for anyone.  

Anyway, the forecast for SB seems like they may be able to be open TTB by Saturday.  We can spread out a bit then.


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

With 79 posts and counting, I'd say this is a hot button issue.


----------



## cbcbd (Dec 11, 2006)

Truth is, people in this country, especially in the Northeast, are very uptight about their personal space - accidentally brush their arm and you're already saying "I'm sorry".

Although unrelated, I still can't help to think about once incident in my early skiing days when I yardsaled leaving some things behind on some icy/rocky terrain.  This guy retrieves my googles, skis down to me, hands them to me and says "I ruined my skis to get your googles"

WTF!!??  I prefer to get hit by a wayward snowboarder and have him say sorry in a low voice before having to deal with that asshole.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> With 79 posts and counting, I'd say this is a hot button issue.



Debating the skiers resp. code is something i love to do...  Because it exposes gapers that use the code as some sort of shield to ski tough terrain and make it someone elses fault when they stumble into an expert line and get hit...


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Debating the skiers resp. code is something i love to do...  Because it exposes gapers that use the code as some sort of shield to ski tough terrain and make it someone elses fault when they stumble into an expert line and get hit...



I like to scream "My Bad!!!!" as I hop over their skis when they cut into my line.  Continuing to zipper past them before they can say two words gives me a warm-fuzzy feeling.  

If I bump them (which happens extremely rarely), I do stop and see if they're o.k.  It's one thing to scare the beejesus out of someone (as I'm sure that big ol' board of yours does).  It's another thing to make contact.  In that instance, someone could be hurt (including me) and I make sure everything's on the up and up before moving on.

And I think that's where a gap arises between those of us in the "no-harm, no-foul" tribe and the "if you get near me, you must bow down and beg for forgiveness" group.  

Just because somebody scares you or you believe that someone is too close isn't a punishable offense.  If you get bumped so gently that you barely realize it happened, it's stupid to get bent out of shape.  Apologies are appropriate where contact is made and it's significant.  

Brush my jacket? Ski/ride on, no harm.  Knock me out of my ski boots?  Well, a "Sorry" would be greatly appreciated while you dial the ski patrol on your cell phone. Save the drama for situations that call for it.


----------



## FridayHiker (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:
			
		

> I guess I'm just good at seeing the difference between hitting a pedstrian with a SUV versus clipping a ski in a lift line...





			
				rob56789 said:
			
		

> Also whoever compared hitting some random pedestrian on the sidewalk with a vehicle and bumping into someone just blew this whole thing way out of properation.



No, I didn't blow it out of proportion.  I surely didn't say the situations were identical; I was just trying to point out that "no harm / no foul" is pretty subjective and doesn't always apply, so it's actually pretty useless, and I still contend it's a pretty lousy rule to teach your kids to live by.  A smart kid can rationalize a heckuva lot under that umbrella.


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

FridayHiker said:


> I was just trying to point out that "no harm / no foul" is pretty subjective and doesn't always apply, so it's actually pretty useless.



As Justice Stewart said in the famous case about obscenity "I know it when I see it."


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

FridayHiker said:


> No, I didn't blow it out of proportion.  I surely didn't say the situations were identical; I was just trying to point out that "no harm / no foul" is pretty subjective and doesn't always apply, so it's actually pretty useless, and I still contend it's a pretty lousy rule to teach your kids to live by.  A smart kid can rationalize a heckuva lot under that umbrella.




Of course it''s subjective!!!!  Killing someone is a whole lot different then clipping someones skis in a liftline..   I think thats a pretty easy thing to teach a kid..  In fact most kids wouldn't care less if it wasn't for their blowhard parents getting all protective...   

So it doesn't always apply... I think we're all down with that..  But IT DOES apply to this context..


----------



## Brettski (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Debating the skiers resp. code is something i love to do...  Because it exposes gapers that use the code as some sort of shield to ski tough terrain and make it someone elses fault when they stumble into an expert line and get hit...



The code is actually set up like nj auto insurance...

no fault

if you hit'em, then you broke one, and if they enter the trail without looking and get hit, they broke one...

the only area where you are 100% blameless as in, you were parked or not moving

Kinda like standing in a lift line


----------



## Brettski (Dec 11, 2006)

And speaking of lift lines...ever get skewered by a ski pole?

Dissing my Helly is not cool


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Brettski said:


> The code is actually set up like nj auto insurance...
> 
> no fault
> 
> ...




No way - it's not legally binding... It contradicts itself...


----------



## JimG. (Dec 11, 2006)

The skier's responsibility code assumes an important quality...

that someone is responsible. Many people are not. 

So be careful out there...look around a little, listen. Read the trail map, ski on terrain suited to your ability.

And be ready to stop on a dime. Because the unguided missles and rude liftline partners are just part of the deal, just like everyday life.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Like I mentioned in a previous post, the code got changed a couple of years ago. If ya haven't read it in a few years, ya might want to check it out.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

http://www.nsc.org/mem/youth/ski/nsaa4.htm

1. Always stay in control.
2. People *ahead *of you have the right of way.
3. Stop in a safe place for you and others.
4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.
5. Use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
6. Observe signs and warnings, and keep off closed trails.
7. Know how to use the lifts safely

better....


----------



## kickstand (Dec 11, 2006)

What a great thread.  Since I haven't followed it all day, I was able to waste the last 25 minutes at work catching up.....

a couple of comments, each of them totally worth the $0.02....

1. It seemed like there was an epidemic last couple of seasons of people refusing to look uphill before starting down the hill themselves.  2 seasons ago, I had a guy in front of me in the woods at Attitash - and we were the only two in there - start down when I got to about 30 feet behind him.  Not knowing exactly where he was going, I put on the brakes and voiced my displeasure with him.  I think I mumbled something about looking uphill first, but he just kept going.  That's just the most memorable example.  I saw it at least a half dozen times each day out.

2. I was wiped out from behind last year by an out of control person sliding on the snow (so not to come off as profiling, I will not mention this person's age, sex, color, sliding instrument of choice, sexual preference, nationality, anything....).  While I pretty much blew a gasket, what bothered me the most was the indignant - and unoriginal - response to me asking what the *&^$% the person was thinking.

BTW, I think the response in the original post was fine.  I can totally understand just making sure that your wife heard the apology and you all moved on.  Life's good, enjoy the slopes.

carry on..............


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> http://www.nsc.org/mem/youth/ski/nsaa4.htm
> 
> 1. Always stay in control.
> 2. People *ahead *of you have the right of way.
> ...



Proposed Revision for #2 - 

"People ahead of you have the right of way, unless they make an abrupt change of direction or slam on the breaks, in which case do your best to avoid them, but if you hit them, then they are to blame because nobody has the right to slam on the breaks while doing 65 mph in the left lane for no apparent reason."

I ski in control and at a good pace.  I don't care how good a skier you are, there are going to be instances where someone makes some crazy move that you didn't anticipate and you won't be able to avoid it.  This is particularly true when you are absolutely giving them space but they just make a bone-headed move.

How's this for rule #8?

"Look uphill before radically reducing speed or changing direction, you aren't alone on this very crowded run in the North East.  If you don't like it, ski at Deer Valley."


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

I actually get a lot of skiers that start out in front of me while I'm in a line..  I think they think that since I'm on a board, I'm not going to catch up with them but I always do...  and have to usually just go to the side of the trail and wait until i get the line clean again..


----------



## Marc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> Proposed Revision for #2 -
> 
> "People ahead of you have the right of way, unless they make an abrupt change of direction or slam on the breaks, in which case do your best to avoid them, but if you hit them, then they are to blame because nobody has the right to slam on the breaks while doing 65 mph in the left lane for no apparent reason."
> 
> ...




Good intention, poor analogy.

If you are following someone, on skis or in a car, the responsibility is on _your_ shoulders to maintain a safe following distance.  If they slam on the brakes, for a good reason or not, and you hit them, you are at fault for following to close, case closed.


Now merging and erratic motion is a completely different situation.  If you are cut off by someone who is attempting to merge, then they are at fault for failing to yield.

Same thing on the slopes, except because there are no well defined lanes as on a highway, in my opinion more repsonsibility falls on the shoulders of the uphill skier, however, that does not mean a skier merging onto a trail without looking is not at fault.  Starting from a standstill, or merging onto a distinctly separate trail, the downhill skier should yield to the uphill skier, IMHO.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> Now merging and erratic motion is a completely different situation.  If you are cut off by someone who is attempting to merge, then they are at fault for failing to yield.
> 
> Same thing on the slopes, except because there are no well defined lanes as on a highway, in my opinion more repsonsibility falls on the shoulders of the uphill skier, however, that does not mean a skier merging onto a trail without looking is not at fault.  Starting from a standstill, or merging onto a distinctly separate trail, the downhill skier should yield to the uphill skier, IMHO.



Noobs on expert trails do not have the skills to judge someone hammering a falline..
If someone only gives a couple meters to some someone blasting a bumpline then when they enter - they'll get hit...  And it's their fault..   You can't just blast into a line on an expert trail without giving someone enough room...

This is from the European code:
"Entering and restarting: Every skier entering a trail or starting after a halt has to assure himself uphill and downhill of the fact that he can do so without danger for himself and others."


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> Good intention, poor analogy.
> 
> If you are following someone, on skis or in a car, the responsibility is on _your_ shoulders to maintain a safe following distance.  If they slam on the brakes, for a good reason or not, and you hit them, you are at fault for following to close, case closed.
> 
> ...




Your explanations work well before the change from "downhill" skier to "ahead" skier. Pretty simple and easy to understand but the change was made because sometimes the downhill skier is at fault in addition to the two scenerios you mentioned.

For example, if you are skiing down the trail and you are getting ready to pass a slower skier and for whatever reason the skier turns uphill and you slam into that skier, it's their fault even tho at the time of the collision they were the downhill skier. 

Personally, like most things I like the old way better.


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> Good intention, poor analogy.
> 
> If you are following someone, on skis or in a car, the responsibility is on _your_ shoulders to maintain a safe following distance.  If they slam on the brakes, for a good reason or not, and you hit them, you are at fault for following to close, case closed.



If some genius driving in rush-hour traffic decides to slam on his breaks for Sh*ts and Giggles, I'm not sure the 30 car pile-up that ensues isn't his fault regardless of who gets assigned the blame for insurance purposes.  The same thing goes in skiing.  You can't expect to slam on your breaks on a crowded run without a moment's notice and not cause all sorts of chaos.  

I ALWAYS look up the hill when I'm stopping in the middle of a run or changing my line,  because I ski quickly and someone following behind me isn't going to have time to react to my abrupt change of speed or direction unless I flash hand signals. Oh, maybe turn signals are the answer here.  You could mount them on your helmet!

It's just common sense, be aware of your surroundings.  

Oh, and I will personally tear those I-pod ear buds out through your nose if you are wearing them on a trail.  You deserve to get biffed if you didn't hear me behind you.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> Oh, and I will personally tear those I-pod ear buds out through your nose if you are wearing them on a trail.  You deserve to get biffed if you didn't hear me behind you.




I'd like to see you try... :roll:   I ride with music all the time...


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

I think that's nuts.  Do you hear anyone around you?


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> If some genius driving in rush-hour traffic decides to slam on his breaks for Sh*ts and Giggles, I'm not sure the 30 car pile-up that ensues isn't his fault regardless of who gets assigned the blame for insurance purposes.  The same thing goes in skiing.  You can't expect to slam on your breaks on a crowded run without a moment's notice and not cause all sorts of chaos.
> 
> I ALWAYS look up the hill when I'm stopping in the middle of a run or changing my line,  because I ski quickly and someone following behind me isn't going to have time to react to my abrupt change of speed or direction unless I flash hand signals. Oh, maybe turn signals are the answer here.  You could mount them on your helmet!
> 
> ...




On the car thing I agree with Marc and so does every State Trooper and judge. Even in rush hour traffic if your on the bumper of the person in front of you your setting yourself up for a possible collision. Just cause everyone does it doesn't make it the smart thing to do.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> I think that's nuts.  Do you hear anyone around you?



Sure... I don't use earbuds - my speakers are built into my helmet ear peices...

But more importantly - I try to stay aware of what around me visually...  With all the noise of inbounds skiing - I don't relay on my ears..


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:


> On the car thing I agree with Marc and so does every State Trooper and judge. Even in rush hour traffic if your on the bumper of the person in front of you your setting yourself up for a possible collision. Just cause everyone does it doesn't make it the smart thing to do.



You missed my point.  I agree that the letter of the law says the person trailing is "at fault", but that doesn't mean that the person who caused the problem in the first place isn't really the one to blame.  

The Skier's Code makes the world safer by making the overtaking skier aware that they need to get around the person below them safely.  Therefore, you give them room.  If there wasn't a rule of the road, there would be chaos.

That being said, you can't ignore the fact that skiing is a bit more free flowing than traffic flow.  It's not as predictable and we are definately not skiing at the same speed or witht same abilities.  So, I could care less who is "to blame" in this circumstance, but I can tell you that the people who think that they can do whatever the hell they want to on the slopes because they have the "right of way" are the ones crying in the first aid station later on.

All it takes is a little awareness and consideration of your surroundings to enjoy this sport safely.


----------



## Jean-Pierre Skier (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Sure... I don't use earbuds - my speakers are built into my helmet ear peices...
> 
> But more importantly - I try to stay aware of what around me visually...  With all the noise of inbounds skiing - I don't relay on my ears..



As long as you hear something and are in tune with your surroundings, good on ya.  But there are those guys that you litterally have to tap on the shoulder to get their attention.  If I'm in their blind spot on the trail, they are either going to take me out or I'm taking them out, because they don't know I'm there.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> As long as you hear something and are in tune with your surroundings, good on ya.  But there are those guys that you litterally have to tap on the shoulder to get their attention.  If I'm in their blind spot on the trail, they are either going to take me out or I'm taking them out, because they don't know I'm there.



The good thing about snowboarding is I can look backup the hill while riding...  
I always fall when I tele cause i try and look back uphill.. Pretty funny actually...


----------



## Skier75 (Dec 11, 2006)

ajl50 said:


> Why does it matter that it was a young kid on a snowboard. If it was an older man ( say one much bigger than you) who did the same thing would you and those on the board who agree have done the same thing? I bet not. I'm not a big fan of jackass teenagers but I also don't have a big heart for older people who act paternalistic all the time. If it was an older man (or another woman) I'm willing to bet none of you would have said a thing. I've been run into plenty by older jerks and young jerks and guess what- I find the younger kids WAY more likely to say sorry and ask if everything is ok. So...don't give me this "teenagers can be obnox. sometimes" as a justification for asking for an apology. I just think you are all conditioned to think that you are right all the time whenever a teenager is involved. Maybe he did say sorry and your wife didn't hear. Maybe he's just learning. Maybe "I was almost wiped out" was a little dramatic. Maybe he tripped. My point is - I think you all responded the way you did because you have a preconceived notion of a snowboarding teenager that judges this kid before anything happens. Remove that, change the actor and guess what..."oh it was just a little mistake."
> whatever...I have to go learn tax.



I've been pretty quiet about this, but now I guess I should give my story.....

Yeah, it was a teenager and he did come up pretty fast behind be, just barely stopping before his snowboard hit the back of my skis, . If he did apologize, I didn't hear him. And I really wasn't making a big deal out of it nor was I looking to make a big deal out of it. The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is the fact that he was coming in way too fast for the lift line and yes he could've very well have taken me out if I wasn't paying attention. I'm not very big and it wouldn't take much to do that, and I hate getting hurt, if I'm gonna get hurt I'd rather it be on my own accord, not some wise ass teenager trying to show off to his buddies.  And I would've responded the same way if it was "anyone", not just a teenager, cause some adults are just as bad sometimes. I don't like to make a big scene about things, I actually kinda shyly said to my husband that the snowboarder just hit the back of my skis, he doesn't have a problem speaking up to rude people. I do get annoyed by people that can't respect others, thinking they're the only ones around and do what ever they want, when they want, no matter who it affects. Anyway, I just think that everyone, including the young skiers/boarders to all of the older people just need to respect each other it and it would be such a "big deal". You know what they say, "to get respect, you have to give it". That goes for everyone.


----------



## Marc (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> Noobs on expert trails do not have the skills to judge someone hammering a falline..
> If someone only gives a couple meters to some someone blasting a bumpline then when they enter - they'll get hit...  And it's their fault..   You can't just blast into a line on an expert trail without giving someone enough room...
> 
> This is from the European code:
> "Entering and restarting: Every skier entering a trail or starting after a halt has to assure himself uphill and downhill of the fact that he can do so without danger for himself and others."



Exactly, I don't disagree with you Doug.  That's what my caveat about yielding was all about.  It is the same exact thing as merging onto a highway at 35 mph and leaving 20 feet of room behind you for the person driving 65 mph.  The person merging is at fault.



ski_resort_observer said:


> Your explanations work well before the change from "downhill" skier to "ahead" skier. Pretty simple and easy to understand but the change was made because sometimes the downhill skier is at fault in addition to the two scenerios you mentioned.
> 
> For example, if you are skiing down the trail and you are getting ready to pass a slower skier and for whatever reason the skier turns uphill and you slam into that skier, it's their fault even tho at the time of the collision they were the downhill skier.
> 
> Personally, like most things I like the old way better.



I see what you're saying.  It is an important distinction.  There perhaps is a gray area however, I always give a wide berth to other skiers ahead of me and I always need to feel confident I can avoid a potential accident _no matter what_ maneuver the skier ahead of me attempts.



Jean-Pierre Skier said:


> If some genius driving in rush-hour traffic decides to slam on his breaks for Sh*ts and Giggles, I'm not sure the 30 car pile-up that ensues isn't his fault regardless of who gets assigned the blame for insurance purposes.  The same thing goes in skiing.  You can't expect to slam on your breaks on a crowded run without a moment's notice and not cause all sorts of chaos.



I AM sure the 30 car pile-up is not his fault.  The following car, assuming this is *not* a merge and yield situation is _always_ at fault.  There is no argument.  The driver _must_ be aware of the braking capabilities of both the car ahead and of the vehicle being driven, road conditions, visibility conditions, etc. and adjust a safe following distance accordingly.

This gets pounded into your head if you ever drive truck, because of how longit takes an 80,000 lb rig to stop.  From driving a fire trucks, I know first hand how critically important it is to always maintain a safe following distance.

And I take the same exact philosphy to the slopes.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2006)

Skier75 said:


> I've been pretty quiet about this, but now I guess I should give my story.....
> 
> Yeah, it was a teenager and he did come up pretty fast behind be, just barely stopping before his snowboard hit the back of my skis, . If he did apologize, I didn't hear him. And I really wasn't making a big deal out of it nor was I looking to make a big deal out of it. *The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is the fact that he was coming in way too fast for the lift line *and yes he could've very well have taken me out if I wasn't paying attention. I'm not very big and it wouldn't take much to do that, and I hate getting hurt, if I'm gonna get hurt I'd rather it be on my own accord, not some wise ass teenager trying to show off to his buddies.  And I would've responded the same way if it was "anyone", not just a teenager, cause some adults are just as bad sometimes. I don't like to make a big scene about things, I actually kinda shyly said to my husband that the snowboarder just hit the back of my skis, he doesn't have a problem speaking up to rude people. *I do get annoyed by people that can't respect others, thinking they're the only ones around and do what ever they want, when they want, no matter who it affects. Anyway, I just think that everyone, including the young skiers/boarders to all of the older people just need to respect each other it and it would be such a "big deal". You know what they say, "to get respect, you have to give it". That goes for everyone.*



I agree wholeheartedly.  

There were two critical points presented, which have been overlooked.  It all boils down to this:

1.  The person who came down the slope was out of control and rude.  

I think we all agree with this.  

2.  The response to the incident.  

Some agree.  Some don't agree with what was done.  

The take home is that one needs to ski and ride in control.  Period.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Skier75 said:


> Yeah, it was a teenager and he did come up pretty fast behind be, just barely stopping before his snowboard hit the back of my skis, . If he did apologize, I didn't hear him. And I really wasn't making a big deal out of it nor was I looking to make a big deal out of it.



Until you posted it on the internet... 

What happened to you actually doesn't seem like a big deal and I like that you didn't make it a big deal.....  

And I don't know about you, but there have been times when I've come into a queue a little fast...  

A little insight into snowboarding:
When you snowboard and a queue isn't filled that much - you try and ride into the queue before you take your foot out of the binding - sometime ducking ropes on uncrowded days..  It's a lot bettter then skating(rear foot out) into the queue with skiers blasting past you while your taking more room because you're foot is out..    

Thing is - at some point you have to unstrap either before or while riding in the queue.. and if don't plan it right you can get into a little trouble..  99% of the time I have no issues with this..  But sometimes if I'm skating my foot slips a little and I can go slightly off balance and accidently hit someones board(s)..

I always apologize...  I hope people hear me now......


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Marc said:


> Exactly, I don't disagree with you Doug.  That's what my caveat about yielding was all about.  It is the same exact thing as merging onto a highway at 35 mph and leaving 20 feet of room behind you for the person driving 65 mph.  The person merging is at fault.



It's about physics...  And other stuff... 

Mainly I sense a heuristic trap...  If someone sees a person blasting down a falline, turning in control, at a good speed, on expert trarrain, totally in blance and working the terrain...  

What makes downhill person think they can jump right into your line?  

All these fact should make them think the uphill person is going to be on their ass like fur on a weasel in a second or two...  
But something is telling them it's ok...   Is it because the person is a woman? or on a snowboard?  Or young?

Or are they just gapers and I'm reading too much into this...?


----------



## Skier75 (Dec 11, 2006)

This is uphillklimber, my wife logged in on me!!!!



dmc said:


> Until you posted it on the internet...
> 
> 
> A little insight into snowboarding:
> When you snowboard and a queue isn't filled that much - you try and ride into the queue before you take your foot out of the binding - sometime ducking ropes on uncrowded days..  It's a lot bettter then skating(rear foot out) into the queue with skiers blasting past you while your taking more room because you're foot is out..



Wow, I didn't mean to start a hot button thread. I was looking to adjust what i had done a little. To be honest, I felt a little out of place with what I had done. A little, I could have addressed it a little better. 

DMC, I understand what you are saying about skating, I've done a little snowboarding myself. Perhaps, I have not been real clear about what happened here. He did not come in from the back of the line. The ropes are, what, 35 feet long at the Barker quad. We're about half way up them to the head of the line. This kid came in from the side, not the end. He ducked under a couple ropes, misjudged his aim a little, basically sliding in on his butt a little.

I'll admit to being a little protective of my wife, she's a small girl. Like I said, I don't want to be the intolerant jerk on the mountain, but if something happens, I'll address it. I just want to be appropriate. Which is why I asked for opinions. And man!!! Have I ever gotten them. 

Thanx all.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 11, 2006)

Cool bud, glad to see your not one whos to high on himself to take a little advice.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

uphillklimber said:


> Wow, I didn't mean to start a hot button thread.



No worries...  8)


----------



## Lostone (Dec 11, 2006)

SRO said:
			
		

> maybe you can help me figure out how I am supposed to get one of my albums in that little disc player in my car?



Fold it.  It works!   I wouldn't lie.   You can trust me. :wink:



As for the topic, the rules are set.  If someone is ahead of you, and they haven't just come out from another trail or from a stop, they have the right of way.  

Look thru the rules.  You will notice it never mentions "your line"  If they come out and you have to panic stop, they are at fault.  If they make you change or stop your line;  tough.  That is what you get for skiing on a public ski area.

They posted the rules.  They likely have them where you bought your ticket or pass.  If you don't like those rules, get your own area or go to one that doesn't use those rules.  (_Bet you don't find one!_)  Or go backcountry, where there are no rules.

The person ahead can not look up while they are skiing.  (Easier for riders, depending on which way they are facing.)  The person from behind has the responsibility to avoid a collision.  They're the only person that can see it coming.  

If you are "hammering a line" and can't stop,  *you are not in control.*  The rules say you should not be doing so  on a trail with othe people in front of you.  

You can't drive that way , either, unless you are on a closed track  with different rules.  

I think those that rose to the defense of the boarder in question are part of the problem as to why people are rude.  It does take a village, and parts of our village support its destruction.


----------



## 2knees (Dec 11, 2006)

Lostone said:


> I think those that rose to the defense of the boarder in question are part of the problem as to why people are rude.  It does take a village, and parts of our village support its destruction.




no kidding.   the original post was about a kid skidding into a liftline ducking ropes and bumping into someones wife.  Holy crap, talk about case closed.  the dude sounds like an idiot and if uphillklimber wanted a clear apology, fine.  He deserved one. Its not like he took him behind the woodshed or something.  The rest of it, well, we have all been cutoff or knocked down or even knocked someone else down.  It happens.  No, you dont have to be happy about it, but it happens.


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Lostone said:


> If you are "hammering a line" and can't stop,  *you are not in control.*  The rules say you should not be doing so  on a trail with othe people in front of you.
> 
> You can't drive that way , either, unless you are on a closed track  with different rules.




I guess thats why there's expert/intermediate/beginner roads on the highway... :roll:

So you mean to tell me that if some gaper jumps in front of me from a dead stop on a bump line or sleezes in from behind on an angle that I'm supposed to stop!?!?!?

It's the physics of sking fast...  You can't stop on a dime when you moving fast...   Any person thats skied bumps that are tight knows that once you get going it's tough to stop...

As for the rules - it's a pile of contradictions...


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

2knees said:


> no kidding.   the original post was about a kid skidding into a liftline ducking ropes and bumping into someones wife.  Holy crap, talk about case closed.  the dude sounds like an idiot and if uphillklimber wanted a clear apology, fine.  He deserved one. Its not like he took him behind the woodshed or something.  The rest of it, well, we have all been cutoff or knocked down or even knocked someone else down.  It happens.  No, you dont have to be happy about it, but it happens.



So what - he apologized...  Maybe he didn't do it to the guys liking but he did it...
What else could he do???  Get down on his knees and beg forgivness?


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Lostone said:


> I think those that rose to the defense of the boarder in question are part of the problem as to why people are rude.  It does take a village, and parts of our village support its destruction.



I guess it's rude to fall trying to get into a lift line then not apologize loud enough and then have some random guy say "you made sure she felt you, make sure she hears you apologize" and not react... 

Yeah...  Western civilization is going to crumble now...


----------



## Mark_151 (Dec 11, 2006)

This brings up the question -- what's the best CCW for the slope -- a S&W 637 Airweight snubby, or a Glock 26?:roll:


----------



## awf170 (Dec 11, 2006)

Mark_151 said:


> This brings up the question -- what's the best CCW for the slope -- a S&W 637 Airweight snubby, or a Glock 26?:roll:



Whippet poles are the way to go.


----------



## 2knees (Dec 11, 2006)

dmc said:


> So what - he apologized...  Maybe he didn't do it to the guys liking but he did it...
> What else could he do???  Get down on his knees and beg forgivness?




get on his knees and beg forgiveness?  UHK said neither he nor his wife heard the apology.  If he knew the guy apologized, and kept at it, i might have a different take.  But now because he didnt hear it, nor did his wife according to the original post, somehow he is the perp and the guy that busted into the liftline is the victim?  If anything, i'll give credit to the boarder for not escalating by going back at him.  Sometimes you're just wrong, like when you barrel into a liftline, and you have to take some modicum of shit for it.


----------



## ski_resort_observer (Dec 11, 2006)

Lostone said:


> Fold it.  It works!   I wouldn't lie.   You can trust me. :wink:
> 
> cool..thanks..I forgot vinyl folded so easily  :lol:


----------



## Lostone (Dec 11, 2006)

1) The rules make no separation as to the difficulty of the trail.  When you bought your pass, you accepted the rules they posted.  Live by the agreement you made.

B) For an apology to be an apology, it must be heard by the person to whom it is given.  That is a basic fact of an apology.  Why else would it be given?

III)  Yes society is crumbling.  Look around you.  You can help make things better, or you can help them deteriorate.  We all choose our paths.  We are responsible for the paths we take.


----------



## Lostone (Dec 11, 2006)

> So you mean to tell me that if some gaper jumps in front of me from a dead stop on a bump line or sleezes in from behind on an angle that I'm supposed to stop!?!?!?



Either of these could easily be considered his violation of the rules.  The hard one is him coming from uphill and going past you and stopping.  That woud be his entering the trail from an obscured position. (_behind you._)


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Lostone said:


> 1) III)  Yes society is crumbling.  Look around you.  You can help make things better, or you can help them deteriorate.  We all choose our paths.  We are responsible for the paths we take.



Don't you think your over reacting(and preaching) just a tad?

Fact is - the guy said he apologized...  And he may have or maybe he didn't...  But he said he did and thats good enough for me..  
You choose your way to deal with society and I'll choose mine...


----------



## dmc (Dec 11, 2006)

Lostone said:


> Either of these could easily be considered his violation of the rules.  The hard one is him coming from uphill and going past you and stopping.  That woud be his entering the trail from an obscured position. (_behind you._)



Its not even stopping...   I hit a guy coming down to a lift a couple years back..  I was moving but checking my speed back against the trees a couple yard from them.

There was a guy carving big turns uphill of me that I had just caught out of the corner of my eye -  he was flying - came in from behind me on an angle towards the woods - going considerably faster then me - I had nowhere to go except the woods or him - I chose him  and I nailed him(or he nailed me) as he got in my path...  Absolutely nothing I could do...  Total yardsale... Had to shake it off...

The guy tried to start with me but I didn't bite...


----------



## JimG. (Dec 12, 2006)

I'm glad I wear a helmet...I really like my new Giro G10.

After reading this thread, I'm going to start wearing it while I'm driving too.


----------



## Marc (Dec 12, 2006)

JimG. said:


> I'm glad I wear a helmet...I really like my new Giro G10.
> 
> After reading this thread, I'm going to start wearing it while I'm driving too.



I'm going to start using a pre tensioning seatbelt, front impact air bags, side impact curtains and crumple zones when I ski.


Gonna be a bitch skiing with that seat and steering wheel though.  I hope i don't whack anyone with my A pillar.


----------



## blacknblue (Dec 12, 2006)

There are a ton of tangential issues brought up throughout this thread, but to respond to the original post...   It's so hard to say without having seen/heard the situation what all the particulars are, but, in general, it sounds like the snowboarder guy was being reckless in a crowded area.  It seems a bit harsh how UHK responded, but maybe the guy was way out of control and reckless; I have no idea.

To me, the larger issue (which a few people have brought up) is that, like it or not, we share the slopes and chairlifts.  As such, those participating are responsible to recognize and ensure the safety of others around them.  With the increasing numbers on the slopes, there is a greater endangerment.  We all know that we have the capacity to seriously injure while skiing/riding, and that capacity demands our attention and care.  When we drive through a crowded pedestrian area, we slow down; when we ski/ride through a large herd of people at the bottom of the hill, we slow down.  Usually, it's an instinctive response.

I think what really gets us the most fired up (and maybe why UHK responded as he did) is when others are completely oblivious to our safety.  Example - I know two people who aren't skiing this year b/c they are still recovering from being skied/ridden into last year.  In both cases, the other person was clearly at fault, left unscathed, and ski/rode away without an apology (in one case leaving the person alone and bleeding profusely from his face, under his helmet).  Hey accidents happen, but those two deliberately left the 'scene of the crime' with no regard to their fellow skier/rider's predicament.

I don't care if I get jostled or bumped in line; that happens in a crowd.  And I can't tell you how many times somebody has hit me in the back of the head putting the 'safety' bar down on the chairlift b/c they weren't paying attention to me.  Not a big deal.  But when someone is aggregiously and recklessly endangering me or others, well, that's a big deal, whether it's going full bore toward the liftline or being stupid/careless on the slopes.  And since official enforcement is nearly impossible, I think it's fine if other skiers/riders explain, chastise, or reprimand those who are endangering others with their behavior.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 12, 2006)

blacknblue said:


> To me, the larger issue (which a few people have brought up) is that, like it or not, we share the slopes and chairlifts.  As such, those participating are responsible to recognize and ensure the safety of others around them.  With the increasing numbers on the slopes, there is a greater endangerment.  We all know that we have the capacity to seriously injure while skiing/riding, and that capacity demands our attention and care.  When we drive through a crowded pedestrian area, we slow down; when we ski/ride through a large herd of people at the bottom of the hill, we slow down.  Usually, it's an instinctive response.
> 
> I think what really gets us the most fired up (and maybe why UHK responded as he did) is when others are completely oblivious to our safety.  Example - I know two people who aren't skiing this year b/c they are still recovering from being skied/ridden into last year.  In both cases, the other person was clearly at fault, left unscathed, and ski/rode away without an apology (in one case leaving the person alone and bleeding profusely from his face, under his helmet).  Hey accidents happen, but those two deliberately left the 'scene of the crime' with no regard to their fellow skier/rider's predicament.
> 
> I don't care if I get jostled or bumped in line; that happens in a crowd.  And I can't tell you how many times somebody has hit me in the back of the head putting the 'safety' bar down on the chairlift b/c they weren't paying attention to me.  Not a big deal.  But when someone is aggregiously and recklessly endangering me or others, well, that's a big deal, whether it's going full bore toward the liftline or being stupid/careless on the slopes.  And since official enforcement is nearly impossible, I think it's fine if other skiers/riders explain, chastise, or reprimand those who are endangering others with their behavior.



I did address this is a very shortened way when I said that the skier's responsibility code makes one huge assumption...that the person reading it is responsible. Perhaps your longer version will ellicit feedback; mine didn't.

I guess I've gotten cynical...the world is filled with irresponsible people who couldn't care less about other people. Go ahead and talk about Europe, when it comes to being self absorbed nowhere is it done to an extreme like in the US. Everyone is a victim and everyone has an excuse. 

I gave up trying to chastise the irresponsible. You clip one ticket and there will be 10 other jerks out there to take that person's place. I watch out for my family and me. If I see an out of control skier heading towards my 4 year old, I'll tackle that person before they hit my son. Then I'll help them up and apologize. If they think I'm an asshole for taking them out, so be it. They have no clue regardless.

So keep your eyes and ears open, because in the end it's up to you to protect yourself.


----------



## SkiDork (Dec 12, 2006)

can't we all just get along?


----------



## dmc (Dec 12, 2006)

SkiDork said:


> can't we all just get along?



We get along - we just have different opinions..  this isn't KChat...


----------



## dmc (Dec 12, 2006)

JimG. said:


> So keep your eyes and ears open, because in the end it's up to you to protect yourself.



Personal responsibility...  wow.. 
Seems like a lot to do when there's rules deflecting the responsibilities onto someone else...


----------



## SkiDork (Dec 12, 2006)

dmc said:


> We get along - we just have different opinions..  this isn't KChat...



I almost lost my lunch on that one....  

You rule DMC!!!!!!!


----------



## JimG. (Dec 12, 2006)

dmc said:


> Personal responsibility...  wow..
> Seems like a lot to do when there's rules deflecting the responsibilities onto someone else...



Groundbreaking, I know.

I must preface my next comment by saying that I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who winds up in a hospital or off their skis because they got hit out on the hill.

I worry about me and mine because I would get no solace lying in a hospital bed waiting for reconstructive knee surgery knowing that the person who took me out clearly violated the skier's responsibility code. I mean, who cares?


----------

