# Camcorders



## Madroch (Dec 9, 2009)

I've seen the recommendations generally discussed in the past.  I am tempted to go with a flip camcorder- maybe the new kodak (Zi8), but am concerned about the lack of optical image stabilization.  The Kodak only has electronic image stabilization, and as the primary use for the cam will be shooting skiing and kids sports- am concerned I will end up with a bunch of 2knees shaky vids (no offense!).  The price-comparable non-flip panasonic cams (including the successors to Greg's fav) all seem to have great OIS but somewhat inferior video quality (according to reviews, anyway, they seem okay to me).  The Canons have better video (again, according to reviews), but poorer image stabilization.

Question is-- which do I opt for-- image stabilization or video quality.  Can't afford a cam with both, it appears.


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## Madroch (Dec 9, 2009)

Mods- if this should have been in gear-- please move with my apologies.


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## Greg (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a FlipShare HD camera and to me the biggest limitation with it is the 2X digital zoom. Haven't use it for skiing yet so I can't comment on how good it will be. Probably fine unless you like to shoot footage with a lot of zoom (I do).


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## andyzee (Dec 9, 2009)

Sony


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## polski (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a Flip Mino HD and image stabilization definitely is an issue for skiing. My hands aren't very steady when I stop after hard skiing and the wind is blowing and what not. Lack of a viewfinder also is a limitation. Great camera otherwise, incredible resolution.


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## vcunning (Dec 9, 2009)

Yep, I've got the Flip HD and image stabilization is an issue.  I can deal without the zoom (especially since there is no stabilization).  But the quality/convenience factor is great.

Although I do some editing in iMovie HD, the FlipShare software package is great to put something together quick.

I've got a few Flip videos here.  You can see that things are a little shaky.

End of the day, I love the size, price and HD.


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## riverc0il (Dec 9, 2009)

All the image quality in the world won't make up for a shaky picture. Which would you rather have: sub-standard image quality you can see what is happening or super high quality useless video. I wouldn't buy a camcorder for skiing with optical image stabilization. You are always going to be shooting without a tripod, often zoomed in, so it is important.

That said, there are a lot of good cheap camcorders with OIS and there are a lot of bad cheap camcorders with OIS. Obviously, get the best quality camcorder you can afford with OIS. And don't forget that if you are planning on streaming on YouTube, top level image quality won't matter much any ways.

Watch out for HD when it comes to editing your video. A lot of camcorders are going HD but it really bumps up the file size and increases the computer system requirements needed to edit the video. It looks like a lot of really cheap HD camcorders sacrifice options to claim HD. I would rather have a standard def camcorder without HD than bad optics with HD (which is what I did this season, bought a Canon without HD... while I still can... because I just did not need the HD and it is a resource hog).

You should also look into output files of the camcorders. Some are easier to work with than others.

My impression of the ultra small camcorders is that they sacrifice too much in places. I opted for something a little larger but felt the overall package better met my needs.


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## gmcunni (Dec 9, 2009)

personally, i think zoom is pretty important.


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## andyzee (Dec 9, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> All the image quality in the world won't make up for a shaky picture. Which would you rather have: sub-standard image quality you can see what is happening or super high quality useless video. I wouldn't buy a camcorder for skiing with optical image stabilization. You are always going to be shooting without a tripod, often zoomed in, so it is important.
> 
> That said, there are a lot of good cheap camcorders with OIS and there are a lot of bad cheap camcorders with OIS. Obviously, get the best quality camcorder you can afford with OIS. And don't forget that if you are planning on streaming on YouTube, top level image quality won't matter much any ways.
> 
> ...



Sorry, have to disagree and advise on the importance of image stabilization, Especially if your talking about using zoom, that is where stabilization is most important. Perhaps it is important to understand what image stabilization is an when it is most important. No, image stabilization is not a factor under normal conditions when you are shooting as you are skiing or riding. Image stabilization comes into play when you use the zoom. In effect, what happens is the zoom magnifies and movement. Image stabilization minimizes this effect. When ever shopping for a camcorder image stabilization has always been one of the more important factors for me, and for that, I have found Sony to be the best. Now, if zoom is not important, and you don't plan on using it, then no, you have no need to worry about stabilization. To see how it works, just go to the store, pick up a JVC with and zoom to it's max, move the camera from one object to another, see how much shaking you see in the image. Then do the same with a Sony and compare.


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## riverc0il (Dec 10, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Sorry, have to disagree and advise on the importance of image stabilization,


Andy? Were you high when you made that post in response to mine? :lol: :-D What are you disagreeing about? I advised get the best camcorder with OIS that can be afforded and that OIS trumps image quality.


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## andyzee (Dec 10, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Andy? Were you high when you made that post in response to mine? :lol: :-D What are you disagreeing about? I advised get the best camcorder with OIS that can be afforded and that OIS trumps image quality.



Sorry, I read too fast This line threw me off "I wouldn't buy a camcorder for skiing with optical image stabilization."


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## Madroch (Dec 10, 2009)

Thanks for the responses.  I checked out Vcunning's vids- they are sharp- but with some shake.  Flip phone still seems to be the way to go due to budget, but I would love a camera with a little zoom and some OIS to make it nice and smooth.  AndyZee's reference to Sony surprised me a bit, most of the review I read didn't love most of the Sony offerings... I will re check.

Does electronic image stablization help at all... or is it basically as worthless as nothing?


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## riverc0il (Dec 10, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Sorry, I read too fast This line threw me off "I wouldn't buy a camcorder for skiing with optical image stabilization."


Heh! Jokes on me then! Guess I shouldn't drink and AZ at the same time. Should have read without, my bad.

:beer:


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## riverc0il (Dec 10, 2009)

Madroch said:


> Does electronic image stablization help at all... or is it basically as worthless as nothing?


I would go optical.


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## andyzee (Dec 10, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Heh! Jokes on me then! Guess I shouldn't drink and AZ at the same time. Should have read without, my bad.
> 
> :beer:



Even worst, you got me thinking I'm going senile!


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 12, 2009)

we love our flip, but the zoom is a limiting factory, great for skiing, just throw it in the jacket....

i wish you could edit in imovie then send out via flipshare


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## o3jeff (Dec 12, 2009)

Madroch said:


> Thanks for the responses.  I checked out Vcunning's vids- they are sharp- but with some shake.  Flip phone still seems to be the way to go due to budget, but I would love a camera with a little zoom and some OIS to make it nice and smooth.  AndyZee's reference to Sony surprised me a bit, most of the review I read didn't love most of the Sony offerings... I will re check.
> 
> Does electronic image stablization help at all... or is it basically as worthless as nothing?



Did you decide on one yet? I've been looking at these things for the past few weeks and it looks like it is between the Kodak Zi8, the Flip MinoHD or Ultra HD and the Creative Vado HD(second generation). They all seem to have their pros and cons so it;s kind of a toss up on which to go with. I've found the Creative Vado HD for $89-$99 so that will probably help me with making my decision!


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## riverc0il (Dec 12, 2009)

Regarding the Flip, you have a pretty good sample just posted recently by Greg in the Trip Reports forum (Killington). I think that the video on that Flip is very shaky. I don't know if it has image stabilization or not. But compare that to my video from MRG in the Trip Reports section in which most of the video with Nhski (the first posted I think?) was taken somewhere in the 15-20x-ish zoom range free hand with OIS.


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## Madroch (Dec 12, 2009)

Looks like the Zi8 is the winner -seems to have a little more zoom, and at least has EIS, not optical but it is something.  I tried to pick one up locally but were no deals.  Will order it and have it by next weekend.


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## o3jeff (Dec 12, 2009)

Madroch said:


> Looks like the Zi8 is the winner -seems to have a little more zoom, and at least has EIS, not optical but it is something.  I tried to pick one up locally but were no deals.  Will order it and have it by next weekend.



Walmart I think had them the other day when I was there. Also with the Zi8 you need to figure the price of an SD card on top of the camera price


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## Madroch (Dec 14, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Regarding the Flip, you have a pretty good sample just posted recently by Greg in the Trip Reports forum (Killington). I think that the video on that Flip is very shaky. I don't know if it has image stabilization or not. But compare that to my video from MRG in the Trip Reports section in which most of the video with Nhski (the first posted I think?) was taken somewhere in the 15-20x-ish zoom range free hand with OIS.



What was the MRG video shot with?  Looks good, but probably outside my price range.


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## hammer (Dec 14, 2009)

Madroch said:


> Looks like the Zi8 is the winner -seems to have a little more zoom, and at least has EIS, not optical but it is something.  I tried to pick one up locally but were no deals.  Will order it and have it by next weekend.


Have you seen any good examples of video from the Zi8?


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## riverc0il (Dec 14, 2009)

Madroch said:


> What was the MRG video shot with?  Looks good, but probably outside my price range.


Canon FS200. I think I got it for $200


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## Madroch (Dec 15, 2009)

hammer said:


> Have you seen any good examples of video from the Zi8?



Not from the Zi8- but from a lot of the camcorders I have been comparing it to.  For the Zi8 am relying on reviews such as cnet and customer reviews, etc.


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## o3jeff (Dec 15, 2009)

Madroch said:


> Not from the Zi8- but from a lot of the camcorders I have been comparing it to.  For the Zi8 am relying on reviews such as cnet and customer reviews, etc.



I think the Amazon reviews might have had a sample video or two. It seems the quality of all these types of cameras are about the same, just keep in mind what they are when comparing them to real HD and full size camcorders.


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## Madroch (Dec 15, 2009)

Other issue with the Zi8 is that the software is not necessaerily Mac compatable- or so the reviews suggest- something about not being able to edit stuff shot in HD on the Mac.  We have both a PC and a Mac, but I am a complete newb at this stuff and want it as easy as possible- and preferably on the Mac.  I have to actually read up on some of these issues and try to understand them before I act... or, I could just leap before I look as usual.


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## o3jeff (Dec 15, 2009)

I was in Costco Sunday and saw they had the 8gb Flip Mino for $199 and the Ultra HD 8gb for $149(only had a handful left) both with the HDMI cable included. Those are about average prices for them, but they also have the 90 return if you don't like them.


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## hammer (Mar 22, 2010)

Just bought the Zi8...a bit hard to find in the stores.  Ended up spending about $200 total including a 4GB SDHC card.

Haven't done much with it yet but it seems decent so far.


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## o3jeff (Mar 22, 2010)

I order the new Kodak ZX3 Playsport last week, will have any day now and will comment on it after I get some vids done with it this weekend.


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