# Ski Magazine 2017-18 Eastern Resort Rankings



## WWF-VT (Sep 22, 2017)

1.      Smugglers Notch
2.      Sugarbush
3.      Mount Snow
4.      Tremblant
5.      Jay Peak
6.      Mad River Glen
7.      Sugarloaf
8.      Stowe
9.      Okemo
10.   Loon

11.   Bretton Woods
12.   Killington
13.   Whiteface
14.   Sunday River
15.   Stratton
16.   Holiday Valley
17.   Waterville Valley
18.   Cannon
19.   Wildcat
20.   Wachusett


Many surprises this year - let the annual debate begin.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 22, 2017)

Surprised to see Tremblant and Holiday Valley that low, and Mount Snow that high


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 22, 2017)

spin the wheel, as it goes


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## machski (Sep 22, 2017)

Hmm, Sunday River slid.  GM tried to tell me all winter their survey numbers were at their highest ever (I wasn't buying it).  Guess not.

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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2017)

Sugarbush #2? How did they pull that off (don't get me wrong, I love the place as it is my home mountain, just surprised they made it that high).


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## benski (Sep 23, 2017)

I think this is the first time I have ever seen Mont Tremblant out of first place.


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## tnt1234 (Sep 23, 2017)

Can you really consider MRG a resort?


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## tnt1234 (Sep 23, 2017)

benski said:


> I think this is the first time I have ever seen Mont Tremblant out of first place.



Maybe this will force them to look at the beer situation up there.....


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## machski (Sep 23, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> Maybe this will force them to look at the beer situation up there.....


I think it more likely they have to face their lift situation up there.

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## tnt1234 (Sep 23, 2017)

machski said:


> I think it more likely they have to face their lift situation up there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app



What don't you like about the lifts?  Nearly all HSQ aren't they?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> Can you really consider MRG a resort?



Same could be said of Wildcat as well as Cannon, though now that the Mittersill connection if pretty well finished one could call Cannon a resort again.


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## dlague (Sep 23, 2017)

This list is BS. Mount Snow ahead of so many like Stowe, Killington, Jay Peak and Cannon as well as others.

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## machski (Sep 23, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> What don't you like about the lifts?  Nearly all HSQ aren't they?


Yes, but not enough capacity for the weekend crowds.  Most of HSQ's need to be upgraded to HSS.  The Duncan HSQ is the second oldest one they have and is a freezer, that needs to be a bubble.  The North side also needs the triple from Midway up increased to a HSQ to alleviate congestion on the Duncan.

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## dlague (Sep 23, 2017)

So.....Bretton Woods ranks higher that Killington

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## JimG. (Sep 23, 2017)

machski said:


> Yes, but not enough capacity for the weekend crowds.  Most of HSQ's need to be upgraded to HSS.  The Duncan HSQ is the second oldest one they have and is a freezer, that needs to be a bubble.  The North side also needs the triple from Midway up increased to a HSQ to alleviate congestion on the Duncan.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I've heard the weekend crowds there are insane. Seen a few pics too. I skied a few weekend days at MSA and it was insane there too.

I get 5 days at Tremblant on my MAX so I'm thinking a weekday trip for 3-4 days to check it out.


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## cdskier (Sep 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> This list is BS. Mount Snow ahead of so many like Stowe, Killington, Jay Peak and Cannon as well as others.



Just keep in mind this is all based on reader submitted surveys...so take the results with a grain of salt as always.


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## JamaicaMan (Sep 23, 2017)

When they don't even include Magic in the original survey ya just have to throw out all the results ;-)


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## slatham (Sep 23, 2017)

JamaicaMan said:


> When they don't even include Magic in the original survey ya just have to throw out all the results ;-)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



And isn't that ok? You don't want lemmings do you? Throwback, authentic, real, old school, classic, Vermont skiing. Mag rankings just don't get that.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> *This list* is BS. Mount Snow ahead of so many like Stowe, Killington, Jay Peak and Cannon as well as others.



This list?

Can you point me to a ski resort "list" that isn't BS?   They're all horrible.  They're "more horrible" in the dawn of the internet era when he or she who gets the biggest social media campaign going wins.

And yes, Mount Snow being ranked above ANY ski resort in northern Vermont is a LOL-inducing moment.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 23, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> *
> 
> 8.      Stowe*



Wow, people really hate Vail. 

   Stowe at #8 may as well be #78.


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## cdskier (Sep 23, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, people really hate Vail.
> 
> Stowe at #8 may as well be #78.



Actually many surveys were submitted BEFORE Vail bought Stowe. Complaints about pricing were one of the reasons for it being lower on the list. Apparently parking was also a complaint in the surveys.

https://www.skimag.com/ski-resort-life/stowe-vermont


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## dlague (Sep 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, people really hate Vail.
> 
> Stowe at #8 may as well be #78.


Has nothing to do with Vail but more to do with how much it costs to ski there IMO prior to Vail.

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## mbedle (Sep 24, 2017)

You know why these are always BS, the picture they use for the No. 1 resort Smuggler's Notch, actually shows the trails on Stowe in the background...


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Actually *many surveys were submitted BEFORE Vail bought Stowe*. Complaints about pricing were one of the reasons for it being lower on the list. Apparently parking was also a complaint in the surveys.





dlague said:


> Has nothing to do with Vail but* more to do with how much it costs to ski there* IMO prior to Vail.



 Stowe has always been the most expensive area in the east.  Why would that plummet them specifically this year?

Unless I have this silly survey confused with a different silly survey, Stowe's normally top-5.


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## cdskier (Sep 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Stowe has always been the most expensive area in the east.  Why would that plummet them specifically this year?
> 
> Unless I have this silly survey confused with a different silly survey, Stowe's normally top-5.



People finally got tired of it? Different people submitting the survey? Less people submitting surveys in general for Stowe? More people submitting surveys for other areas? Who really knows? Without knowing the details on the methodology of how they tabulate results, who submits surveys, how many were submitted, etc, then I really wouldn't put much stock in this survey to begin with (Holiday Valley used to be top 5 for years which was just bizarre to me).


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## tnt1234 (Sep 25, 2017)

In terms of amenities, and great skiing for all levels, it's hard for me not to think Stowe is top 3 at least.   Really, probably #1 actually.

Sure, it's expensive, but I think it's really the best all around experience.  (Mind you, I've never stayed on the resort, but have spent time at the restaurant,s lodges etc....)


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## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2017)

Midweek I'd say Stowe is about as good as it gets in the East.  Weekends?  I don't really have much interest in waiting in a 30+ minute traffic jam to park my car.  I lived in Stowe for many years.  All of my old friends completely avoid the mountain on the weekends these days.  Some of those friends work in Real Estate and as I've mentioned before they are seeing long term second home owners looking to cash out and move down the road to Sugarbush for less traffic.  

I suspect Stowe's drop in rankings is because it's a victim of its own success.  That said, these lists/surveys are always a crap shoot.  It will probably be ranked #1 next year without changing a thing and Mountain Snow will be back in the teens.

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## tnt1234 (Sep 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Midweek I'd say Stowe is about as good as it gets in the East.  Weekends?  I don't really have much interest in waiting in a 30+ minute traffic jam to park my car.  I lived in Stowe for many years.  All of my old friends completely avoid the mountain on the weekends these days.  Some of those friends work in Real Estate and as I've mentioned before they are seeing long term second home owners looking to cash out and move down the road to Sugarbush for less traffic.
> 
> I suspect Stowe's drop in rankings is because it's a victim of its own success.  That said, these lists/surveys are always a crap shoot.  It will probably be ranked #1 next year without changing a thing and Mountain Snow will be back in the teens.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah, the access road can be a drag, but, you know, the lifts seem to gobble up the lines.  There might be a jam at the 4-runner and Gondi from like 10-11:30, but most weekends I've been there, somehow, they all magically ease up at lunch and doesn't really get bad again.  

Never been on Pres. day, or other big holidays.  Skied a few days over X-mas a few years ago, but crap conditions kept crowds low regardless of the holiday.

But yeah, point taken on the car traffic.  God forbid someone break down at 4:30 PM on the way out....My friend, who has a place up there, was telling me they once came off the mountain at 4:15, had a drink in the shed, looked outside and saw the access road backed up all the way to the lots.  People were stuck in the parking lots trying to leave.  They just went over to spruce, had dinner, walked around for a bit, and traffic finally started moving at like 7-8PM.  A car crash in the middle of the access road just blew up the whole place.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> *long term second home owners looking to cash out and move down the road to Sugarbush *



Wow.  That's interesting, and not good.   

What about the taxes though, in the last 10 or 15 years Vermont has begun to punish those people like they're human rights abusers.  I imagine that's gotta' be hurting the 2nd home purchase market as well.


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## benski (Sep 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> What about the taxes though, in the last 10 or 15 years Vermont has begun to punish those people like they're human rights abusers.  I imagine that's gotta' be hurting the 2nd home purchase market as well.



Your obsessed with this Vermont tax thing. This has nothing to do with Vermont taxes.


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## Smellytele (Sep 25, 2017)

benski said:


> Your obsessed with this Vermont tax thing. This has nothing to do with Vermont taxes.



I agree because it is claimed they are just moving down the road to Sugarbush.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2017)

benski said:


> Your obsessed with this Vermont tax thing. *This has nothing to do with Vermont taxes.*



Well, I'm certainly not "obsessed" with taxation in Vermont, but economics is one of my favorite things, and taxation plays a huge part in economics.  That said, if you really don't think property taxes in Vermont are extremely high and have a negative effect on 2nd home purchases, you're just not paying attention.   

 New Jersey property taxes are the highest in all of America, but Vermont's have skyrocketed so much in the last 15 years that Vermont's are one of the worst in America now too. When you take things like median income into account, Vermont's probably even worse than its' ranking suggests. Just eyeballing figures, property taxes have gotta' be getting painful on the average Vermonter I would think.

https://www.attomdata.com/news/heat-maps/2016-property-tax-analysis/



Smellytele said:


> I agree because it is claimed they are just moving down the road to Sugarbush.



I took it to mean that's where they now ski, but obviously if someone sells a Stowe 2nd home and then immediately buys a Waitsfield 2nd home taxes werent the key driver as they're not saving all that much.


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## tumbler (Sep 25, 2017)

This survey is all about who pays the most for their ranking.  The mountain and terrain didn't change.

Taxes are brutal in VT.  2nd homeowners are taxed more than full time residents, very frustrating.


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## cdskier (Sep 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well, I'm certainly not "obsessed" with taxation in Vermont, but economics is one of my favorite things, and taxation plays a huge part in economics.  That said, if you really don't think property taxes in Vermont are extremely high and have a negative effect on 2nd home purchases, you're just not paying attention.
> 
> New Jersey property taxes are the highest in all of America, but Vermont's have skyrocketed so much in the last 15 years that Vermont's are one of the worst in America now too. When you take things like median income into account, Vermont's probably even worse than its' ranking suggests. Just eyeballing figures, property taxes have gotta' be getting painful on the average Vermonter I would think.
> 
> https://www.attomdata.com/news/heat-maps/2016-property-tax-analysis/



While the tax rates may be high in Vermont (as is most of the northeast pretty much), real estate values in VT are lower than NJ, so ultimately you're still paying less taxes for a comparable home. Also for someone purchasing a second home, I don't see tax rates playing a big role in the decision. If you decide you want a vacation home in VT, you're not going to look at the rates and say "screw that, Colorado is much lower, I'll buy one there instead". Overall cost is a factor, sure, but most people would sooner look for a slightly less expensive house before they decide to buy a second home in a completely different state just to save on taxes.


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## cdskier (Sep 25, 2017)

tumbler said:


> This survey is all about who pays the most for their ranking.  The mountain and terrain didn't change.
> 
> Taxes are brutal in VT.  2nd homeowners are taxed more than full time residents, very frustrating.



It varies year to year and town to town. In Warren and Waitsfield, the non-resident rate this year is slightly less than the resident rate (and in Warren has been this way for a couple years now if I remember correctly from my tax bill).


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## Hawk (Sep 25, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush #2? How did they pull that off (don't get me wrong, I love the place as it is my home mountain, just surprised they made it that *high*).



I think you have it.  They just sampled some of the "Green" mountain product with them.  HA


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 25, 2017)

These ski magazines are no better than reading something you pulled off the rack while unloading your grocery cart.

Anything mentioning ski areas, resorts is either subsidized or written by 50% cosmopolitans and the other 50% self-professed "ski bums", aka graduates of a self-designed major at Weed University (with a required core of 20 units in gender studies).

As long as they fail to mention the actual best places to hit on a powder day...

In reality these are lifestyle magazines and for richfags who hop a plane to see some snow, written by SJWs who lament the influence of capitalism on their sacred mountains.

Ski Magazine said my ski is a 3.72 and yours is only a 3.43 ... SUCK IT


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## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow.  That's interesting, and not good.
> 
> What about the taxes though, in the last 10 or 15 years Vermont has begun to punish those people like they're human rights abusers.  I imagine that's gotta' be hurting the 2nd home purchase market as well.


The real penalties for second home owners came with Act 60 back in the 90s.  While I'm sure it's gotten worse since, that was the big jump.  My folks 1350 sqft second home in Ludlow saw it's taxes jump from $2k to $4.5k+ basically overnight when Act 60 went live. 

As for these Stowe folks leaving, the motivation is the increased traffic in town and overall change in feel over the past 15 years.  The benefit is they probably can get the same quality property in the MRV for less than half the cost and much lower taxes.   

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## cdskier (Sep 25, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I think you have it.  They just sampled some of the "Green" mountain product with them.  HA



LOL! Sure could be!


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2017)

cdskier said:


> real estate values in VT are lower than NJ, so ultimately *you're still paying less taxes for a comparable home. *



Not really.   Very slightly.   That's where _'effective tax rate' _comes into play, and Vermont's is one of the worst in the nation.  Better than NJ, but still pretty bad.



cdskier said:


> *If you decide you want a vacation home in VT, you're not going to look at the rates and say "screw that, Colorado is much lower, I'll buy one there instead".*



You sure?   That's DEFINITELY something I'd think about.  Taxes, price appreciation of asset, etc...  all of that.  Cost would be a huge factor in my decision.  For some people who are buying solely for every weekend trips, well then sure, because they cant fly every week.  But if you're only making it on say 3 ski trips a year, that CO home you mention sounds pretty nice.



deadheadskier said:


> As for these Stowe folks leaving, the motivation is the increased traffic in town and overall change in feel over the past 15 years.  The benefit is *they probably can get the same quality property in the MRV for less than half the cost and much lower taxes.   *



Sounds good to me.    Stowe > Sugarbush, but money is money.  And if Stowe traffic truly is becoming a nightmare it probably makes those savings look even sweeter.


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## cdskier (Sep 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not really.   Very slightly.   That's where _'effective tax rate' _comes into play, and Vermont's is one of the worst in the nation.  Better than NJ, but still pretty bad.


Let's use a real example. My 2 BR Condo in VT runs me about $2200 in taxes. A similarly sized 2BR condo in my town in NJ would run about $5800 in taxes. The assessed value of the example condo in NJ is a bit less than twice the assessed value of the VT condo, yet taxes are about 2.5 times higher.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "effective" tax rate. Bottom line the taxes on the condo in VT are substantially less in terms of real dollars than the similar one in NJ would be. The VT tax rate comes out to around 2% while the NJ one is about 2.5%. Those real values are pretty close to the "effective" values listed on the site you mentioned, so I'm not following how they are adjusting to account for property values being different in different states.



> You sure?   That's DEFINITELY something I'd think about.  Taxes, price appreciation of asset, etc...  all of that.  Cost would be a huge factor in my decision.  For some people who are buying solely for every weekend trips, well then sure, because they cant fly every week.  But if you're only making it on say 3 ski trips a year, that CO home you mention sounds pretty nice.


Cost is a factor, yes. Tax rate is not. I pointed out in my example above that the taxes for a similar property are cheaper in VT vs NJ due to property values being lower even though rates are not terribly different. That's what I'm looking at to determine my perception of value and whether they are "expensive" or not.

If you're buying a second home to use it for 3 ski trips a year, then you have other issues to begin with. I can't believe that is the normal target audience for a second home. So again, saying taxes are much cheaper in a state like CO is irrelevant because there are other factors that play a much bigger role in the decision than taxes alone. You buy a second home typically because it is in a location that you want to visit (usually often), not because of tax rates. If I wanted a place down the Jersey Shore (which I don't...but just an example as there are many people that do), I'm not going to buy a place in South Carolina instead just because they have lower property taxes.

I'm not saying taxes don't matter, I'm just saying especially when it comes to second homes they are much less a factor compared to other things.


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## drjeff (Sep 25, 2017)

cdskier said:


> While the tax rates may be high in Vermont (as is most of the northeast pretty much), real estate values in VT are lower than NJ, so ultimately you're still paying less taxes for a comparable home. Also for someone purchasing a second home, I don't see tax rates playing a big role in the decision. If you decide you want a vacation home in VT, you're not going to look at the rates and say "screw that, Colorado is much lower, I'll buy one there instead". Overall cost is a factor, sure, but most people would sooner look for a slightly less expensive house before they decide to buy a second home in a completely different state just to save on taxes.



Agree 100%!

The choice to buy a 2nd home is way, way, way more often about doing something to augment your enjoyment of life and getting to spend time with family and/or loved ones and friends.  It rarely makes brilliant financial sense if one is honest. You often don't lament too much about the taxes because those are secondary compared to your enjoyment that you get from the 2nd home (at least as long as you and your family are regularly using it).

As for this list, or any ski area ranking lists, my guess is that you could survey 100 people and get 100 different lists.....


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## Jully (Sep 25, 2017)

I would consider the total cost (including taxes) if I'm looking for a second home. The primary driver would of course be what I want to do and where (I.e. if I live in NJ amd want a weekend beach house I won't buy a place in SC because of lower taxes). However, if there were comparable options in different states and the drive time and such did not vary significantly, then tax rate would absolutely matter.

For instance, I'm in Boston, I'm lucky enough to have three different states with wonderful ski Resorts and towns within a reasonable drive distance. I would look seriously at places in Maine, North Conway New Hampshire, and something like Waitsfield Vermont. All have similar drive times, what I consider to be large top-tier resorts nearby, and so taxes and overall cost of real estate would absolutely play a big role in my final decision.

That said, $2200 on a 2BR condo is not atrocious by any means IMO.


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## benski (Sep 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I took it to mean that's where they now ski, but obviously if someone sells a Stowe 2nd home and then immediately buys a Waitsfield 2nd home taxes werent the key driver as they're not saving all that much.



You thought they were evading Vermont real estate taxes by moving to Sugarbush. Stop kidding yourself.


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## x10003q (Sep 25, 2017)

Another popularity contest. Holiday should never be in the top 20 just based on terrain alone and  Wachusett is just a 110 acre day area.  The idea that Gore is once again missing from the top 20 while these 2 are in the top 20 indicates the silliness of this list.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 26, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure what you're referring to by "effective" tax rate.



I'm referring to it because it's very important when comparing such things.



benski said:


> You thought they were evading Vermont real estate taxes by moving to Sugarbush. Stop kidding yourself.



Huh?   No, you misunderstood.


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## cdskier (Sep 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm referring to it because it's very important when comparing such things.



I didn't say "why", I said "what", as in please explain how they are calculating the "effective" rate to account for differences in real estate values for comparable properties in different states.


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## Plowboy (Sep 26, 2017)

cdskier said:


> It varies year to year and town to town. In Warren and Waitsfield, the non-resident rate this year is slightly less than the resident rate (and in Warren has been this way for a couple years now if I remember correctly from my tax bill).



Yes, the non-res. rate is lower in Fayston also, but residents can get a break based on income.


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## gnardawg (Sep 28, 2017)

I'm always surprised at how low Killington ends up on these lists. What is it that drives them low? They have the longest season, great nightlife, good snow making very varied terrain. 



WWF-VT said:


> 1.      Smugglers Notch
> 2.      Sugarbush
> 3.      Mount Snow
> 4.      Tremblant
> ...


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2017)

gnardawg said:


> I'm always surprised at how low Killington ends up on these lists. What is it that drives them low? They have the longest season, great nightlife, good snow making very varied terrain.



I think some think that it is not very family friendly and just a party mountain with a bunch of hardos. Not saying I think that but have had others mention that they didn't like the clientele.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I didn't say "why", I said "what", as in* please explain how they are calculating the "effective" rate to account for differences in real estate values for comparable properties in different states.*



That's what Effective property tax is.  

It's a way to compare apples-to-apples in different areas (not just states) by dividing the property's value by the property tax paid on it.   A big number is bad, it means you're paying a big chunk of your homes value each year in taxes, and thus getting less (or even LOSING) money on your real estate investment.  In a state like New Jersey or Connecticut or New Hampshire, if you're home isn't appreciating at least 2% per year, your ROI is underwater just based on taxes alone, not even including other home costs, etc....



Smellytele said:


> *I think some think that it is not very family friendly* and *just a party mountain* with a bunch of hardos. Not saying I think that but have had others mention that *they didn't like the clientele.*



I agree that that's got to be a big chunk of it, all the Joey Juice's that descend on the place, and probably the perceived crowding in general.


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## urungus (Sep 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> I think some think that it is not very family friendly and just a party mountain with a bunch of hardos. Not saying I think that but have had others mention that they didn't like the clientele.



What is a “hardo” ?  Is it someone who thinks they are / brags about being hardcore but are actually a relative noob?  How do hardos differ from gapers?


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2017)

urungus said:


> What is a “hardo” ?  Is it someone who thinks they are / brags about being hardcore but are actually a relative noob?  How do hardos differ from gapers?



gapers are more ski specific but gapers don't always think they are cool where hardos do.


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's what Effective property tax is.
> 
> It's a way to compare apples-to-apples in different areas (not just states) by *dividing the property's value by the property tax paid on it.   *A big number is bad, it means you're paying a big chunk of your homes value each year in taxes, and thus getting less (or even LOSING) money on your real estate investment.  In a state like New Jersey or Connecticut or New Hampshire, if you're home isn't appreciating at least 2% per year, your ROI is underwater just based on taxes alone, not even including other home costs, etc....



Are we talking assessed value? If so, I still don't see how this results in comparing apples to apples. How is this going to result in a different tax rate than what is listed on your local property tax bill? If we're not talking the assessed value, then how are they coming up with the value?

Feel free to provide real examples to help illustrate.

If a 2BR condo in town A in NJ has an assessed value of $200K and the town has a property tax rate of 2.5%, your taxes are 5K.
If a similar 2BR condo in town B in VT has an assessed value of $100K and the town has a property tax rate of 2%, your taxes are 2K.

How would the effective tax rate of either of these properties be different than the "real" tax rate?


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## Hawk (Sep 28, 2017)

This real-estate conversation is making my head spin.  What, do you guys work in that industry or what?  Geese!   All I know is I have a second home in Warren and compared to my local friends, I am getting crucified.  I pay for schools and other things I don't even use.  It is total taxation without representation.   I feel like grabbing some maple syrup and throwing it in the mad river dressed as an Indian.  LOL


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> *Are we talking assessed value? If so, I still don't see how this results in comparing apples to apples. How is this going to result in a different tax rate* than what is listed on your local property tax bill? If we're not talking the assessed value, then how are they coming up with the value?



What you're talking about (it seems I think) is nominal tax value based on assessed value.   An effective tax rate considers market value, which is more useful and far more realistic depending on where you live.  In some areas, the assessed versus market value will be trivial, in other areas it can be gigantic.  It's the percentage of actual home value (that could realistically be garnered on the open market) that you're paying in taxes each year.   If this doesn't explain it, I'm not sure how else I can take a crack at it.  Perhaps Google it.


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> This real-estate conversation is making my head spin.  What, do you guys work in that industry or what?  Geese!   All I know is I have a second home in Warren and compared to my local friends, I am getting crucified.  I pay for schools and other things I don't even use.  It is total taxation without representation.   I feel like grabbing some maple syrup and throwing it in the mad river dressed as an Indian.  LOL



On a percentage basis, you should be paying less than your local friends (a whopping 0.0179 % less). This year's VT education tax rate in Warren is 1.5737 for residents vs 1.5558 for non-residents. The municipal rate portion is the same for both (0.51). Yes, we're paying money for schools we don't use, but that's not surprising and happens in many/most places with 2nd home owners.

As to BG's latest response, I see what he's saying, but I still don't think he understood my original point then. If market values in 2 places are drastically different (i.e. a 2BR condo in town B costs twice what it does in town A), then unless there's also a very significant difference in tax rates between those two towns, your taxes are lower in town A even with similar tax rates simply by virtue of the property value being lower. "Effective" tax rate doesn't change that. That was my original point on why VT (compared to NJ at least) is not exactly what I would consider ridiculously high in terms of property taxes. And thus why tax rate alone is not a reason to decide to buy a second home in a location other than VT. For me, if I want a 2nd home near a major ski area in the northeast, I'm looking at NY, VT, NH, and ME. ME is out right away as it is too far for me (although taxes there are indeed lower than the other 3). The other 3 all have property tax rates a bit over or around 2% on average, so there's no major difference between them for taxes unless there's a difference in market values of the properties you are considering.


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## Hawk (Sep 28, 2017)

I am looking at my 2016 bill and we have a Muni rate of .46 and a non-residention Edu rate of 1.53 so that shows how much it went up this year.  But something seems wrong.  Are you sure the residents Edu rates are higher?  That was not what I was lead to believe.


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I am looking at my 2016 bill and we have a Muni rate of .46 and a non-residention Edu rate of 1.53 so that shows how much it went up this year.  But something seems wrong.  Are you sure the residents Edu rates are higher?  That was not what I was lead to believe.



It varies year to year (and town to town in VT). When I first bought my condo back in 2011, non-residential rates in Warren were higher than resident rates. The past 2 or 3 years it has changed and now we pay less. Current rates (as well as links to rates for the past 6 years for every town in VT) are all available here: http://tax.vermont.gov/property-owners/understanding-property-taxes/education-tax-rates.

And yes, the rates went up, but my taxes actually went down on the 2017 bill (they lowered the assessed value of my condo earlier this year based on comparable sales or something like that).


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## Glenn (Sep 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> This real-estate conversation is making my head spin.  What, do you guys work in that industry or what?  Geese!   All I know is I have a second home in Warren and compared to my local friends, I am getting crucified.  I pay for schools and other things I don't even use.  It is total taxation without representation.   I feel like grabbing some maple syrup and throwing it in the mad river dressed as an Indian.  LOL



I can relate. It's tough when you shell out a bunch of money, but have no voice as to how that money is spent.


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## Jully (Sep 28, 2017)

Glenn said:


> I can relate. It's tough when you shell out a bunch of money, but have no voice as to how that money is spent.



Can you not attend local town meetings?


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2017)

Jully said:


> Can you not attend local town meetings?



You could potentially, but often they are during the week when 2nd homeowners aren't around. You can't vote so they can listen to you at the meetings and then just ignore you anyway if all the locals want to go in a certain direction.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I Current rates (as well as links to rates for the past 6 years for every town in VT) are all available here: http://tax.vermont.gov/property-owners/understanding-property-taxes/education-tax-rates.



Quickly eyeballing that it looks like they jack up the towns in/by many of the ski areas.


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## Jully (Sep 29, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Quickly eyeballing that it looks like they jack up the towns in/by many of the ski areas.



Doesn't shock me!


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## drjeff (Sep 29, 2017)

cdskier said:


> You could potentially, but often they are during the week when 2nd homeowners aren't around. You can't vote so they can listen to you at the meetings and then just ignore you anyway if all the locals want to go in a certain direction.



Yup, same thing in Dover where my 2nd home is.  The town meetings are typically on some Tuesday or Wednesday, late afternoon/early evening during some obscure time of the year far from typical vacation time, where I am welcome to attend, but can't vote.

As long as I just keep paying my taxes, which then go into the VT state pool and redistributed around the state to where the folks on Montpelier see fit, all is fine.... :angry:


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## Hawk (Sep 29, 2017)

drjeff said:


> As long as I just keep paying my taxes, which then go into the VT state pool and redistributed around the state to where the folks on Montpelier see fit, all is fine.... :angry:



I don't think this is the case.  These are local property taxes we are talking about and not VT State income tax.  I don't think that towns fork over funds to the state.  Does anybody know if that is true?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 29, 2017)

Yes, they do. ACT 60 was established to even the playing field for education throughout the state.  A portion of the property taxes from "gold towns" which are often ski towns is redistributed to towns that have less revenue.  

In regards to second home owners having a voice in where their tax money goes, is there a state in the country that offers that to second home owners?  I mean doesn't that really boil down to 1 person, 1 vote?  What if you owned two properties in the same town? Should you have double the influence? 

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## Glenn (Sep 29, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes, they do. ACT 60 was established to even the playing field for education throughout the state.  A portion of the property taxes from "gold towns" which are often ski towns is redistributed to towns that have less revenue.
> 
> In regards to second home owners having a voice in where their tax money goes, is there a state in the country that offers that to second home owners?  I mean doesn't that really boil down to 1 person, 1 vote?  What if you owned two properties in the same town? Should you have double the influence?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



It's a good philosophical question. On the surface, if you own property somewhere, you should have a say in how things are run in the town. 

The closest I've gotten is a friend who also happens to be on selectman. 

It's a delicate walk. No matter what, you'll always be an outsider. You don't want to be that loudmouthed you know what flatlander who's always making demands.


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## Hawk (Sep 29, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes, they do. ACT 60 was established to even the playing field for education throughout the state.  A portion of the property taxes from "gold towns" which are often ski towns is redistributed to towns that have less revenue.
> 
> In regards to second home owners having a voice in where their tax money goes, is there a state in the country that offers that to second home owners?  I mean doesn't that really boil down to 1 person, 1 vote?  What if you owned two properties in the same town? Should you have double the influence?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yes you are right.  I guess I am just bitching that I have to pay.  I guess we all do.  I just wish that VT would get more creative and less socialist.  If any state should adopt the legalization of Weed and have dispensaries it should be VT.  It would help them greatly.


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## benski (Sep 29, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> In regards to second home owners having a voice in where their tax money goes, is there a state in the country that offers that to second home owners?  I mean doesn't that really boil down to 1 person, 1 vote?  What if you owned two properties in the same town? Should you have double the influence?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



You could always register to vote in the town where your second home is and vote absentee. I register to vote in Binghamton where I go to college but still don't have that on my drivers license.


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## drjeff (Sep 29, 2017)

benski said:


> You could always register to vote in the town where your second home is and vote absentee. I register to vote in Binghamton where I go to college but still don't have that on my drivers license.



The issue with that, especially if one has kids, is then you give up your right to vote where your primary residence is, and that isn't a good option either....


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## Smellytele (Sep 29, 2017)

benski said:


> You could always register to vote in the town where your second home is and vote absentee. I register to vote in Binghamton where I go to college but still don't have that on my drivers license.



NH is trying to not allow college students from registering to vote in their college town. I happen to agree as this sways the vote and these student do not pay taxes in town. While they probably spend some money in town they are only there for 4 years at the most and can really effect spending, taxes and who gets elected.


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## tumbler (Sep 29, 2017)

Glenn said:


> It's a good philosophical question. On the surface, if you own property somewhere, you should have a say in how things are run in the town.
> 
> The closest I've gotten is a friend who also happens to be on selectman.
> 
> It's a delicate walk. No matter what, you'll always be an outsider. You don't want to be that loudmouthed you know what flatlander who's always making demands.



Right, as opposed to the Trustifarians that moved up and won't let anything be changed.  Speaking from the MRV perspective.


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## Glenn (Sep 29, 2017)

I had to google that. What a great term! Thanks for sharing.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 29, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> . *ACT 60 was established to even the playing field for education throughout the state.  A portion of the property taxes from "gold towns" which are often ski towns is redistributed to towns that have less revenue.  *



Like nearly every law Vermont enacts, New Jersey did it first.  

Hopefully it's fairing better up there than in Jersey, because here it's a massive failure with practically zero educational results & a taxpayer boondoggle of corruption.




Glenn said:


> *I had to google that. What a great term! *



Oh, I'd see this when I lived a stone's throw from UVM all the time.   

They'd step out of their (obviously not purchased by them) Jeep Cherokee with Connecticut plates looking like they're in need of a handout and a warm meal, but Daddy's a hedge fund manager in Greenwich pulling down 7-figures.

The worst and most insipid part of it all is they universally act like they're underprivileged and somehow oppressed.


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## x10003q (Sep 29, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> NH is trying to not allow college students from registering to vote in their college town. I happen to agree as this sways the vote and these student do not pay taxes in town. While they probably spend some money in town they are only there for 4 years at the most and can really effect spending, taxes and who gets elected.



They spend some money? Tuition, room and board, and fees say hi.


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## cdskier (Sep 29, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Yes you are right.  I guess I am just bitching that I have to pay.  I guess we all do.  I just wish that VT would get more creative and less socialist.  If any state should adopt the legalization of Weed and have dispensaries it should be VT.  It would help them greatly.



Heard on the radio today (I'm in the mrv for the weekend) vt is putting together some commission or something on that topic. They said they know it is inevitable that it will eventually be legalized in this state so need to start planning for it.

I get the argument about not wanting to pay, but at the same time there are plenty of people with primary residences and no kids yet they have to pay. If you exclude 2nd homeowners, then those people would have an argument too. 


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2017)

x10003q said:


> They spend some money? Tuition, room and board, and fees say hi.



No really seen within the towns though. Well for the schools that are nonprofit which are most of them.


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## tumbler (Sep 30, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Heard on the radio today (I'm in the mrv for the weekend) vt is putting together some commission or something on that topic. They said they know it is inevitable that it will eventually be legalized in this state so need to start planning for it.
> 
> I get the argument about not wanting to pay, but at the same time there are plenty of people with primary residences and no kids yet they have to pay. If you exclude 2nd homeowners, then those people would have an argument too.
> 
> ...



They know they need to move quickly before NH and MA open their dispensaries for recreational use. Don't want to miss out on that tax income


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2017)

tumbler said:


> They know they need to move quickly before NH and MA open their dispensaries for recreational use. Don't want to miss out on that tax income



NH has not made rec use legal. MA and ME have.


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## drjeff (Oct 8, 2017)

Totally chuckling about the Mount Snow write up in this issue. Not because of their ranking (my 110% bias towards Mount Snow fully in effect here!!) but because of the promo picture in the lower right of the page taken in the Bullwheel in the summit lodge!! The brunette on the right side is one of my hygienists!! The bald guy next to her is her now ex boyfriend. And the random left elbow in the lower right of the picture is my wife's!! It was taken 3yrs ago during Mount Snow's Labor Day Weekend annual Brewfest!

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## drjeff (Oct 8, 2017)

The photo I'm referencing!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 8, 2017)

drjeff said:


> The photo I'm referencing!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your wife has a nice elbow!

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## granite (Oct 10, 2017)

What about the two blondes, who are they?


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