# MTB - Tire & Slippage Question.. s...



## Trev (Jun 21, 2009)

Ok,

New to biking so my knowledge here is pathetic. That said, I think I have identified the cause of my problem and I am looking for some advice and/or direction.

Reading reviews of the bike prior to buying, quotes like " super grip tires even in the mud, I never slip " and I am thinking to myself.. your riding on muddy pavement.. rofl..

I have an 08 Specialized Rockhopper Pro Disk, stock tires and I think they are the 'slick' version of tires... sorry.. bike is not where I am so I am not 100% sure.

Anyhow, I slip and loose traction all the freaking time in any wetness at all. Now, riding with the gang down at Waldo a week ago I found myself slipping all over the place and the guys.. traveling on without half as much slippage.

My rear tire fills with gunk.. and turns into a tractionless tire in moments -- if any mud/wet stuff.

By boss and another rider from work told me to keep my tire pressure at 55Lbs... "all the time" and these guys jam.. I mean.. jam jam and have years in the sport. So, I listened to them.

I get the distinct impression I should lower my tire pressure for a bit more grip.. perhaps to 40-45...  I weight 200Lbs...  5'11"  I would call myself Average for build.

Personally I think I need a rear tire that has some bigger knobs on it with a bit more spacing on them as well.

Example: riding with WoodCore on Monday at Nass, I slip all over the place on these roots. Back tire will go for 6"-1ft slide on corners.. etc..

Yes I am sitting on my seat and trying to stay over the bike for more traction too.  I am trying very hard to not lean at all on corners, to the point it feels like I am way over compensating.... 

Thoughts, theories...   suggestions..  

Thanks in advance...


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## o3jeff (Jun 21, 2009)

The original tire on my bike sucked and would slip and slide out from under me on all the roots at Nass. Ended up getting a pair of WTB Moto Raptors and they are a lot better, but will still slip around some and they are ok as far as self cleaning the mud out. Greg has the Kendas and when we stopped to break at Waldo last weekend I noticed that they seemed to clear the mud out better then my tires.

As far as pressure, 50 lbs is way too high and will probably cause any tire to slip a lot. I am 180lbs and am running 38 lbs and will probably drop it to 35-36 next ride.


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## bvibert (Jun 21, 2009)

55 PSI is way to high, IMHO.  I ride at 40 PSI and I'm a lot heavier than you.  I'd run lower, but then I get pinch flats all the time.  Start by lowering your pressure and go from there.


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## MR. evil (Jun 21, 2009)

Like the others have said, 55 psi is WAY to high. I am about 190 and running my tires around 33 to 35psi and I plan on trying a bit lower. But I also run a tubeless setup and don't have to worry about pinch flats. Better tires will help with grip, but they are also a very personal choice. For instance many people think that the Kenda Nevegals are the bomb, while many think they are way over rated. I have some friends that swear by Nevegals, and others that hate them. Who do I listen to? Its something you just have to experiment with for yourself. 

Another thing to consider if that grippier tires are usually made from a softer rubber that wears much faster. This means if you ride alot you will be replacing your tires frequently. I know people that will go through 2 to 3 sets of Nevegals in a season. Thats about $160 to $240 in tires alone for the season.


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## Trev (Jun 21, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> The original tire on my bike sucked and would slip and slide out from under me on all the roots at Nass. Ended up getting a pair of WTB Moto Raptors and they are a lot better, but will still slip around some and they are ok as far as self cleaning the mud out. Greg has the Kendas and when we stopped to break at Waldo last weekend I noticed that they seemed to clear the mud out better then my tires.



Umm.. yea.. his tires where like clean... I noticed that as well and when I looked at mine I noticed they where caked full up dirt/mud/stuffage and I had nothing helping with traction at all.

Will lower the psi for my next rides.. and perhaps start seriously considering new tires...


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## Greg (Jun 21, 2009)

The stock Bontys on my Trek were horrible. I replaced with Moto Raptors and have since replaced those with the Nevegals. I don't think the Neves give me any better traction, but they shed mud way better than the Moto Raptors and have way better edge grip while cornering. At around $35 each, not a cheap tire, but I would recommend them. I haven't noticed any appreciable wear (I run full Stick-E compound) after 120+ miles, so unless you're riding over a thousand miles a season, I think you can get away with one set per season.


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## big oz (Jun 21, 2009)

I run 55-60 during the dry conditions, but i also want minimal rolling resistance and run 2.1 tires with micro knobs (Race Kings)  I might go down to mid 40s if its slick, but if that's the case i will just wait til it drys out.  If you don't have the skills yet look into a 2.3 with a wide open, blocky style knob.  Running a larger tire will allow you to get more of a squish factor without pinch flats....plus you will have more contact area.  If you want to run less than say 37 psi, i would look into doing a Stan's no tube conversion with some UST specific tires....this way you can even get into the low thirtys without flatting.  But most important is picking better lines and developing some good body English for those up and overs.  Use momentum and a lttle higher gear to get up short rooty sections and avoid approaching roots in a parralel fashion.


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## Trev (Jun 21, 2009)

big oz said:


> I run 55-60 during the dry conditions, but i also want minimal rolling resistance and run 2.1 tires with micro knobs (Race Kings)  I might go down to mid 40s if its slick, but if that's the case i will just wait til it drys out.  If you don't have the skills yet look into a 2.3 with a wide open, blocky style knob.  Running a larger tire will allow you to get more of a squish factor without pinch flats....plus you will have more contact area.  If you want to run less than say 37 psi, i would look into doing a Stan's no tube conversion with some UST specific tires....this way you can even get into the low thirtys without flatting.  But most important is picking better lines and developing some good body English for those up and overs.  Use momentum and a lttle higher gear to get up short rooty sections and avoid approaching roots in a parralel fashion.



Thanks for the info... everyone..

It isn't necessarily the up and overs as I will unweight the back end to compensate and try to hit them head on where possible. Its mostly  the twisties with tons of roots.. if I am not perfectly upright -- meaning I have to slow down tremendously -- bottoms out. Yea the up and overs too but, I can manage them a bit better recently..

Again - I am new soo every bit of info I am trying to absorb here and me thinking I am doing something correct.. well.. I could be doing totally wrong... I can take constructive criticism   I welcome it..  I'll get arrogant when I know wtf I am talking about, that might take a while.. lol..

Regarding gears, I am managing to stay in the middle front for most all of my riding now.. well.. recent riding  heh.

Thanks again for the tips...


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## Trev (Jun 21, 2009)

Greg said:


> I don't think the Neves give me any better traction, but they shed mud way better than the Moto Raptors and have way better edge grip while cornering. At around $35 each, not a cheap tire, but I would recommend them. I haven't noticed any appreciable wear (I run full Stick-E compound) after 120+ miles, so unless you're riding over a thousand miles a season, I think you can get away with one set per season.



Are they available at local bike shops ? or do I need on-line ordering?


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## MR. evil (Jun 22, 2009)

Trev said:


> Are they available at local bike shops ? or do I need on-line ordering?



Pretty much every bike shop I have been to carries Kenda Nevegals. But a bike shop may not have the size you want in stock. An LBS will also be more expensive than online, but weight in shipping and it might be close.


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## JD (Jun 22, 2009)

In my experience tire tread makes some difference in handleing but a better tire isn't going to magically change the way you ride.  I think the majority of your problem is technique.  When under power or climbing, you are basically driving the back tire.  Pedaling around on rolling single track, I would concentrate on controling the track of the rear wheel and realize that if you clip a slippery root it can send you into a slide.  Tire pressure seems a bit excessive to me as well, but if you run skinny tires on a full suspension bike where it is mostly buff singletrack, it could work for you.  Be smooth with the power and try climbing in a slightly harder gear, less torque, less chance of spinning the rear wheel.  Larger spaced lugs will clear mud easier as well.....


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## eatskisleep (Jun 22, 2009)

I was running 8psi the other day at Lynn woods and Bruce and Toms with Austin in the rain. Pretty much all slick rock and roots. Perfect traction. You just need to pick a smooth line and not ride like an idiot or you might have some problems. Rear tire was pretty bald too.


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2009)

I just got some 26x2.00 Specialized The Captain tires.  I'm looking forward to trying them out.  Hopefully the sidewalls hold up better than my last Specialized tires.  The traction should be much better than the Fast Trak I had before.


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## MR. evil (Jun 22, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I just got some 26x2.00 Specialized The Captain tires.  I'm looking forward to trying them out.  Hopefully the sidewalls hold up better than my last Specialized tires.  The traction should be much better than the Fast Trak I had before.



Are the 2.0's kind of small? I have been using some Spesh 2.3's and they seem much smaller than my old WTB 2.25 MotoRaptors which were not that big in the first place


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## bvibert (Jun 22, 2009)

It's what they had, and also what they replaced, so I'm not complaining considering my out of pocket expense.  I put one on the rear, it seems like it might be a bit lower volume than the Fast Trak I had on there last (the latest to get a hole in the sidewall).


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## Trev (Jun 23, 2009)

Well,

  I picked up a  Kenda Nevegal 2.35.. give her a test out later this week.


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## o3jeff (Jun 23, 2009)

Trev said:


> Well,
> 
> I picked up a  Kenda Nevegal 2.35.. give her a test out later this week.



Those should definitely help you out. Did you put them on yet, I am curious if they clear the frame in the back.

On my bike I went with 2.25, I think I would have clearance issues if I went bigger.


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## Trev (Jun 23, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> Those should definitely help you out. Did you put them on yet, I am curious if they clear the frame in the back.
> 
> On my bike I went with 2.25, I think I would have clearance issues if I went bigger.



Umm.. hrmm.. well I am soo glad that I am this naive with mountain biking that I would not even think to consider that. 

I'll let you know in a couple of hours, I am going to throw that mud slinger on tonight..

I am lucky I can get through the day...  lol...


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## o3jeff (Jun 23, 2009)

You riding anywhere tonight? I am thinking about maybe going somewhere.


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## Trev (Jun 23, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> You riding anywhere tonight? I am thinking about maybe going somewhere.



Thanks for asking, no though. My leg is still very swollen and pretty, well, muffed up, might try to get something going Thurs or Fri afternoon + this weekend.


Tire fit !


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## Trev (Jun 29, 2009)

Trev said:


> Well,
> 
> I picked up a  Kenda Nevegal 2.35.. give her a test out later this week.



PSI @ 40 and the new tire..  seemed to be a really good combo..   keep in mind my PSI was @ 55 prior..  I could probably lower it more... but 40 seemed to work well yesterday...

good stuff so far.. the couple of slips I did have, where short and quickly recovered as compared to before when I would slip down a root until I hit something... like.. my ass on the ground.. lol.


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## tjf67 (Jun 29, 2009)

Trev said:


> PSI @ 40 and the new tire..  seemed to be a really good combo..   keep in mind my PSI was @ 55 prior..  I could probably lower it more... but 40 seemed to work well yesterday...
> 
> good stuff so far.. the couple of slips I did have, where short and quickly recovered as compared to before when I would slip down a root until I hit something... like.. my ass on the ground.. lol.




If it slips bring it down to 35 PSI.  I was keeping my pressure at 40.  Then after a couple of  ridew where I did not put air in the tire I noticed I was getting great traction.   I did not realy think about it until I put them back up to 40.  Let air out on the trail cause I was slipping all over the place.


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## sLoPeS (Jun 29, 2009)

Trev said:


> PSI @ 40 and the new tire..  seemed to be a really good combo..   keep in mind my PSI was @ 55 prior..  I could probably lower it more... but 40 seemed to work well yesterday...
> 
> good stuff so far.. the couple of slips I did have, where short and quickly recovered as compared to before when I would slip down a root until I hit something... like.. my ass on the ground.. lol.



gotta love new tires.  world of difference from stock/crappy/bald ones.  try different pressures and see what u like the best.  biggest issues is that happy medium b/t roll and grip.  somethings always gotta give...

fwiw.....i run panaracer fire pro xc kevlar beaded at 35-40 and really like them.  will upgrade to a larger tire (first front then rear) on the next go around.  i did lose a knob a week ago, but these things get beat up pretty good so i cant say its the tires fault.


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## Trev (Jun 29, 2009)

Ya, I have to upgrade the front tire now from the stock one I got with the bike.

I had never really 'noticed' how often it slipped, but yesterday I did. Probably because I had to really compensate for my_ skill/psi/slick tire _in the past. Perhaps overcompensating. I mean, that is where my focus was/is still.

Either way it isn't a huge deal, I mean, wow what a difference that tire and psi adjustment made. I can totally cope with the front tire as is for a bit if I have to..  I may order online and save myself $20+ on the tire..  my god they got me for $60 for a $35 tire :blink:

Anyhow...   moving on here.. lol


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2009)

Trev said:


> Either way it isn't a huge deal, I mean, wow what a difference that tire and psi adjustment made. I can totally cope with the front tire as is for a bit if I have to..  I may order online and save myself $20+ on the tire..  my god they got me for $60 for a $35 tire :blink:



A good front makes as much a difference as the rear. I rarely oversteer and wash out anymore, allowing me to push the speed in the corners a little bit. You paid $60 for a Neve? You got raped, son.


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## MR. evil (Jun 29, 2009)

Greg said:


> A good front makes as much a difference as the rear. I rarely oversteer and wash out anymore, allowing me to push the speed in the corners a little bit. .



I tried out a new front tire tonight, a really aggresive DH tire.. The tire made a huge impact on cornering! I was carring much more speed in and out of some pretty sharp corners going down and never felt the font lose traction. I had so much confidence in the front tire holding its line that I was letting the rear break loose a little and drifting some corners.


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## MR. evil (Jun 29, 2009)

Trev said:


> Ya, I have to upgrade the front tire now from the stock one I got with the bike.
> 
> I had never really 'noticed' how often it slipped, but yesterday I did. Probably because I had to really compensate for my_ skill/psi/slick tire _in the past. Perhaps overcompensating. I mean, that is where my focus was/is still.
> 
> ...



I pretty much only buy tires online. I only get them from the bike shop when I can't wait or find a great deal. I did get my new front tire for $15 from my shop :beer:. A Continental rep from Germany visited the shop a couple of weeks ago and gave them a couple of these monstrer DH tires as samples. From what I have read they are not even for sale in the states yet, and go for about $60 to $70 online in Europe. This tire was sitting on the shelf with no price or packing. It was a sample wrapped in a couple of rubber bands. It looked like it would be a nice aggresive front tire so I asked the shop owner how much he wanted for it. I then heard some of the nicest words you can ever hear in a bike shop "how much to you want to pay for it?". I asked how much his mark up on bike tires was, he said $10 to $15 bucks, so I gave him $15 for it.


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## big oz (Jun 29, 2009)

I really don't care where people buy their tires, but don't claim that a shop raped you for $60 on a Nevegal.  Please do some homework before pointing fingers.  A shop that purchases that tire from a distributor like QBP is paying roughly $38 bucks for that tire without shipping....add in a couple bucks for shipping and their "to door" cost is close to $40.  If they buy 5 or more of that same tire they may get a discount of $2 per unit.  If they were to keystone that same tire they would be closer to the $80 mark.  Now if you are a good customer, and they give you a 10% discount, they are making shit on that tire.  Unfortunately for us, we don't have the ability, nor the resources to buy OEM surplus from manufacturers that need to dump product, nor do we have the desire to buy the sometimes inferior product that companies flood mail order chains with (ever wonder where those batches of out of spec and bad compound rubber go to....hint, it's not a landfill).  Again, if you don't like a shops price, buy it somewhere else.  You have a choice and the last time I checked rape is an act committed to someone against their will.  So unless the shop had a 9mm pistol pointed at your headforcing you to buy that tire, i would refrain from using a strong word like that in reference to someone trying to keep the doors open and offer you the convenience of being able to buy a product right then and there.


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## MR. evil (Jun 29, 2009)

big oz;436701If they were to keystone that same tire they would be closer to the $80 mark. .[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> what do you mean by 'Keystone'?


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## Greg (Jun 30, 2009)

big oz said:


> I really don't care where people buy their tires, but don't claim that a shop raped you for $60 on a Nevegal.  Please do some homework before pointing fingers.  A shop that purchases that tire from a distributor like QBP is paying roughly $38 bucks for that tire without shipping....add in a couple bucks for shipping and their "to door" cost is close to $40.  If they buy 5 or more of that same tire they may get a discount of $2 per unit.  If they were to keystone that same tire they would be closer to the $80 mark.  Now if you are a good customer, and they give you a 10% discount, they are making shit on that tire.  Unfortunately for us, we don't have the ability, nor the resources to buy OEM surplus from manufacturers that need to dump product, nor do we have the desire to buy the sometimes inferior product that companies flood mail order chains with (ever wonder where those batches of out of spec and bad compound rubber go to....hint, it's not a landfill).  Again, if you don't like a shops price, buy it somewhere else.  You have a choice and the last time I checked rape is an act committed to someone against their will.  So unless the shop had a 9mm pistol pointed at your headforcing you to buy that tire, i would refrain from using a strong word like that in reference to someone trying to keep the doors open and offer you the convenience of being able to buy a product right then and there.



Easy killer. You are right, perhaps "rape" wasn't the best word. And I agree there is a premium involved with instant gratification, no doubt, but $63+ (with sales tax) for a Neve is steep, bottom line. How can the online places sell it for $35 if it costs $38 from the distributor? Bulk deal or something?


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## bvibert (Jun 30, 2009)

Greg said:


> How can the online places sell it for $35 if it costs $38 from the distributor? Bulk deal or something?



I think he covered two possible sources here:



big oz said:


> Unfortunately for us, we don't have the ability, nor the resources to buy OEM surplus from manufacturers that need to dump product, nor do we have the desire to buy the sometimes inferior product that companies flood mail order chains with (ever wonder where those batches of out of spec and bad compound rubber go to....hint, it's not a landfill).


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## big oz (Jun 30, 2009)

Reason 1 - You buy 20k tires, you obviously get a huge discount....especially if a company makes a production over run or a tire with a cosmetic blem or slight defect in the formula.....

Reason 2 - Most online parts places are nothing more than a steel building with a bunch of computers and people who make 8 bucks an hour picking product.  If they get a tire for $30 and sell it for $35 and do that same thing 1000 times a day you are in good shape.  Now multiply that number times how many other products they sell. Especially if you get someone to buy some other high mark up like Sette bars or 4 year old WTB saddles.  Ever wonder why they never have a full run of sizes or models in forks, etc.  They get what they can and off it ASAP.  This is how Home Depot and Walmart work....minimal mark-up @ huge volumes.

Reason 3 - You own a company like Jamis and you decide to spec your bike with a specific part.....an XT rear derailluer perhaps.  You are planning on building 9000 units of a specific bike.  Shimano gives you a crazy price break if you buy a 10k count pallet of bagged derailluers.  You spec your bikes and have 1k derailluers left what are you gonna do?  You call up one of these mail order places and sell the remainder to them at a minimal mark-up.  This is one of the reasons a lot of parts that come from on-line retailers come in bulk packaging....they are overstocks from manufacturers.

Again, one has a choice where to buy.....but what do you expect a shop to sell a tire for when they pay $38 for it?.....If I sold those tires for $50 people would still bitch and we would be out of business in a week.  I bet every shop in CT combined doesn't sell 1000 tires a week, let alone a day.


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## Trekchick (Jun 30, 2009)

This thread has been a great read with some great information!



Greg said:


> *The stock Bontys on my Trek were horrible*. I replaced with Moto Raptors and have since replaced those with the Nevegals. I don't think the Neves give me any better traction, but they shed mud way better than the Moto Raptors and have way better edge grip while cornering. At around $35 each, not a cheap tire, but I would recommend them. I haven't noticed any appreciable wear (I run full Stick-E compound) after 120+ miles, so unless you're riding over a thousand miles a season, I think you can get away with one set per season.


Greg nailed it!

When I bought my first HT bike,(Trek) it had Bontragers that were marginal at best, but I had no idea that it was the tires and not my lack of skillz, until a friend that was on a new Giant with much more aggressive tires smoked me on some climbs that I should have done more easily than she did.  We switched bikes for part of the ride and I knew it was the tires immediately.




MR. evil said:


> Pretty much every bike shop I have been to carries Kenda Nevegals. But a bike shop may not have the size you want in stock. An LBS will also be more expensive than online, but weight in shipping and it might be close.


The times I've looked at on line purchases and LBS, the difference in service and shipping, not to mention the wait time for your order, usually buying at the LBS wins out with me.



Trev said:


> Ya, I have to upgrade the front tire now from the stock one I got with the bike.
> 
> I had never really 'noticed' how often it slipped, but yesterday I did. Probably because I had to really compensate for my_ skill/psi/slick tire _in the past. Perhaps overcompensating. I mean, that is where my focus was/is still.
> 
> ...


Trev, its great to see your enthusiasm. 

The more you ride the better your balance will be, which will help a lot.
I may be off base here and I certainly don't know your riding style, but...
Try standing when you corner and bring your butt back over the saddle.  You may find the balance and agility you're looking for.
:beer:


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## Trev (Jun 30, 2009)

Trekchick said:


> The more you ride the better your balance will be, which will help a lot.
> I may be off base here and I certainly don't know your riding style, but...
> Try standing when you corner and bring your butt back over the saddle.  You may find the balance and agility you're looking for.
> :beer:



Yea, I'm working on it..  thx


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