# Fly vs Drive: Break even point



## abc (Mar 4, 2020)

For going out west that is. 

A flight, even with connection, at its worst, takes just a day each way. Driving, it's 3 to Colorado and 5 to California, times two for the round trip. 

Yes, it's easy to calculate the cost of fly+rental car <> gas + vehicle depreciation + meal/lodging (non-skiing part of the trip).

But that's money, the easy part to put a value on. 

What about time? Time spend on the road is time NOT skiing. Even if you're retired, not limited by yearly vacation days. How many days do you need to be staying out there before you contemplate driving instead of flying? 

On the plus side, driving means you don't have to guess and commit in advance to the flight coming back. And you can bring the kitchen sink too!


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## Zand (Mar 5, 2020)

Drive east, fly west. 

And as much as I never want to "commit" to a flight home, work wouldn't like it too much if I decided I wanted to stay another week.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2020)

Fly west..drive East..
I do hate flying now..


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## snoseek (Mar 5, 2020)

With an ikon or epic and 3 or more weeks I would probably drive personally. Less than that I would fly. I've probably made this drive 25 times probably...its longer than you think but if you have more than 1 driver it can happen quick...Colorado in 2 and California in 3. It's a love/hate thing with me. That first view of the front range after dropping down to Denver's on 76 is the best sight ever!


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

I would never, ever drive out west unless it was for the season and I needed the car to drive all over the place.  The cost of 2+ oil changes, maintenance and 18+ tanks of gas alone is more than a flight. (Based on Boston to Squaw Valley)  Plus the lost time on the road.  I hate all those hours in flat ass places like Kansas, Oklahoma and eastern Colorado.  Nope won't do it.


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## snoseek (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I would never, ever drive out west unless it was for the season and I needed the car to drive all over the place.  The cost of 2+ oil changes, maintenance and 18+ tanks of gas alone is more than a flight. (Based on Boston to Squaw Valley)  Plus the lost time on the road.  I hate all those hours in flat ass places like Kansas, Oklahoma and eastern Colorado.  Nope won't do it.



What are you driving that takes 18 tanks of gas! I fill up maybe 5 or 6 times. It's one oil change for me as well.

Denver's is 2k. Salt lake 2.5 and tahoe 31ish


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

This is why I bought a cheap used 2009 Rav4 with 30,000 miles. Cost of wear and tear on that vehicle couldn't be lower.

Flying sucks! Between the missed flights, cancelled flights, getting stranded, flying through thunderstorms and other seemingly near death experiences I've had enough. I'll pass on breathing in someone's coronavirus sneeze while I'm at it.

Luckily for me I like skiing the East better in most ways anyway.


Hawk's road trip vehicle?


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## jimk (Mar 5, 2020)

So I am the madman that drives from Wash DC to the Rockies to ski almost yearly since 2000.  Here is why.

_I am more motivated_ than New Englanders to get to better skiing.  I will always have great memories of mid-Atlantic skiing.  But the mtns are small.  VT can be great skiing if weather permits, but is one full day of driving from me.  CO has almost always great ski conditions in midwinter and is two full days of driving from me.  Over my 50+ years of skiing I've probably done more driving trips to New England, but over the last 20 years more to Rockies to ski.

I have done about ten-twelve drives from DC to CO for a week of skiing (drive two, ski five or six, drive two).  I've done about five for destinations further than CO, but for longer than one week.

Unlike some of you, _I love to do cross country drives._  All my life my jobs kept me tied to a desk, but I also _always had a decent amount of vacation time._  The highway represents adventure.  The traffic is generally light and I take southerly routes through MD, WV, KY, MO, KS that are rarely messed up by snowy roads.  The anticipation keeps me alert through the flat Midwest, the scenery keeps me alert in the Rockies and beyond.  The return drive provides time to rest sore muscles, reflect over good times, and think about the next trip.  Usually I've had driving partners and take turns driving, making it a breeze.  In 1976 I drove solo on my college spring break to CO for the first time.  Slept in my car multiple nights.  This ski-road stuff is part of my personal ski history.  

_I am not particularly fond of flying_, esp earlier in life.  I flew from DC to UT about 8 times in last five years for one-week visits and it was fine, but not without hassles.

I am retired now, so when I drive out I stay for months, not days.  I drove solo this Jan from DC to Denver in two days without thinking twice about it.  Set me up for four nice ski days in CO, then I continued further west.  Will return to DC in a few months.   Wife will accompany on return trip, which we may break up by visiting friends along the way.

Having said above, I recognize that for most Easterners it makes complete sense timewise and moneywise to fly for ski trips of 3 to 7 days in duration that involve a destination further away than one day of driving.  Caveat:  in 2003 I took my family of six for a ten day trip to CO by minivan, there was considerable savings on that trip by driving and not paying for six airfares and one week minivan rental.  But the long drive was not too fun with four kids between age 9-18.

Probably my most ambitious ski-road trip in recent years was 2018 winter trip from DC to UT to WY to BC to DC, 7000 miles in three weeks.  Too much driving, but all went well and included my first ever visits to Revy and Banff areas and was a very memorable trip.

PS:  as mentioned by ABC in another thread, I have rose colored glasses with anything to do with skiing and that has also impacted my willingness to endure long drives.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

The monetary break even point is fairly easy to calculate. It may differ depends on vehicle, but not by that much. 

Granted, in that calculation, the flight cost has a hidden factor. You can't just compare with a bargain flight you buy 3 month in advance. You'll be buying the flight with 2-3 days notice, vs get in the car and drive the 3 days. The difference is bigger there.

Having done a 3 month road trip a few years back, I know the feeling of driving through the flatlands was positively soul destroying. And the thought I had to do the reverse was almost impossible to bear. More over, although I was able to cart more of my ski gear with me in the car, I didn't use the rest of them enough to justify that as a benefit. 

But on the plus side though, the feeling of freedom to shorten or extend the trip as I please was quite liberating. Without my own car, every extra week I stay out there would cost >$300 on top of the other expenses. Not ruinous. But a psychological barrier. And I would lose the option to just head home on a moment's notice.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

snoseek said:


> What are you driving that takes 18 tanks of gas! I fill up maybe 5 or 6 times. It's one oil change for me as well.
> 
> Denver's is 2k. Salt lake 2.5 and tahoe 31ish



Subaru Outback - 330 miles to the tank, 3000 Miles Boston to Squaw = 9 tanks x 2 = 18+ tanks & 2 oil changes (Both directions like a round trip flight)  Driving = $1,000  Flights $600 to $900.  Flight 5-6 hours  Driving 3 days min.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

jimk said:


> So I am the madman that drives from Wash DC to the Rockies to ski almost yearly since 2000.  Here is why.
> 
> _I am more motivated_ than New Englanders to get to better skiing.  I will always have great memories of mid-Atlantic skiing.  But the mtns are small.  VT can be great skiing if weather permits, but is one full day of driving from me.  CO has almost always great ski conditions in midwinter and is two full days of driving from me.  Over my 50+ years of skiing I've probably done more driving trips to New England, but over the last 20 years more to Rockies to ski.
> 
> ...



Jim, I have seen your posts around the internet.  You are a true warrior and you have had some awesome trips.  I envy you as I with I had the time to spend.  My observation on car travel is from one long trip I did with two of us splitting the driving.  I was younger and just wanted to get there.  I can't imagine going it alone.  I think now I would enjoy it more but I would want at least a month this time.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Subaru Outback - 330 miles to the tank, 3000 Miles Boston to Squaw = 9 tanks x 2 = 18+ tanks & 2 oil changes (Both directions like a round trip flight)  Driving = $1,000  Flights $600 to $900.  Flight 5-6 hours  Driving 3 days min.


Your flight cost is high. But perhaps you did factor in rental car cost?


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## skiur (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Subaru Outback - 330 miles to the tank, 3000 Miles Boston to Squaw = 9 tanks x 2 = 18+ tanks & 2 oil changes (Both directions like a round trip flight)  Driving = $1,000  Flights $600 to $900.  Flight 5-6 hours  Driving 3 days min.



Even with conventional oil, changing your oil every 3000 miles is a waste of money, and bad for the planet.  Any car built since 2000 can easily go 5000 miles between changes (especially if its all highway miles like a trip out west is) and upwards of 10000 with synthetic.  The 3000 mile oil change was brought to you by jiffylube.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

abc said:


> Your flight cost is high. But perhaps you did factor in rental car cost?



Dude, who is flying into Reno for cheaper than that?  Seriously, I'll be look at flights soon for April to visit my friends who moved out there this year.  One caveat is I never do more that one connection and only connect through Dallas, Phoenix, Denver or Salt Lake.  It minimizes the chances for delays or cancellations.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

skiur said:


> Even with conventional oil, changing your oil every 3000 miles is a waste of money, and bad for the planet.  Any car built since 2000 can easily go 5000 miles between changes (especially if its all highway miles like a trip out west is) and upwards of 10000 with synthetic.  The 3000 mile oil change was brought to you by jiffylube.



2015 Subaru Recommended with Synthetic is 5K and gas is premium for my car.  Straight out of  manual.  On long trips I change it before going out and when I get back.  The planet will never know.  My cars last longer than most because of it.  Sorry that is what I do.


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## jimk (Mar 5, 2020)

Thanks Hawk.  Yesterday I skied all day with two gentlemen at Snowbird that were in their mid70s.  They were both strong skiers.  I kept quiet for most chairlift rides because these guys told so many amazing ski stories from their 60+ years of skiing all around North America and Europe.  It was a privilege to listen and ski with them.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Dude, who is flying into Reno for cheaper than that?  Seriously, I'll be look at flights soon for April to visit my friends who moved out there this year.  One caveat is I never do more that one connection and only connect through Dallas, Phoenix, Denver or Salt Lake.  It minimizes the chances for delays or cancellations.


In that case, once you add rental SUV, you're already even with driving even for one week.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

Nope, my friends pick me up at Reno.  No need for cars and they live right at the base of Alpine Meadows.


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## kbroderick (Mar 5, 2020)

It also depends on the agenda. If you want to work touring or border crossings into your plans, the lack of properly equipped rentals for less-traveled areas (4x4 w/snows and chains) can be an issue as well, especially since most rental agreements prohibit use on unpaved roadways and many prohibit border crossings. It's also a lot easier to bring touring gear if you don't have to worry about airport security and 50-pound weight limits.

While less of an issue when skiing lift-served, but the lack of a requirement for rental cars to have 3PMSF-rated tires for winter rentals in places like Bozeman is annoying.

With that said, I'm generally unwilling at this point to give up more than one travel day in each direction. I can be fairly flexible from a work standpoint (as long as I'm caught up and have given the folks I work for plenty of warning), but my wife is a teacher and has very defined vacation schedules. From Maine, that pretty much limits driving trips to the northeast and eastern Canada.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2020)

This is why I like utah...its still the quickest  trip for the best skiing. Fly and ski the same day. Although flight prices have gone through the roof.


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## shwilly (Mar 5, 2020)

For the foreseeable future our rare trips out West will be flying.

I have a retirement fantasy of winterizing a small camper and spending all winter roaming around the Rockies and Sierras, wherever is good.


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## skiur (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> 2015 Subaru Recommended with Synthetic is 5K and gas is premium for my car.  Straight out of  manual.  On long trips I change it before going out and when I get back.  The planet will never know.  My cars last longer than most because of it.  Sorry that is what I do.



Subaru makes money on oil changes too! :beer:


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Although flight prices have gone through the roof.


Check again. Flight cost plummeted due to coronavirus scare. 

Denver & Vancouver $300 for tomorrow, multiple airlines. Haven’t checked other destinations. I wouldn’t be surprised they’ll be reasonable too.


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## AdironRider (Mar 5, 2020)

Driving out West with anything less than a 3 week timeframe is a waste of time and resources. That is at least a week of just grinding miles in a car. 

Annnnnd everything is much further away once you get here so it would be even a larger waste of time to try and move around a bunch if you did try and squeak in a trip (as in why you would drive in the first place). Front Range to Jackson is a minimum 8 hours. SLC to Tahoe like 7 or something. Jackson to Montana is 3+. SLC to Jackson is 4.5. All those drive times are in summer too. Even 15 years later the sheer scale of distance still blows me away after growing up in the NE where you can be like 7 states away in 8 hours, vs it takes longer than that just to cross Nebraska.


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## kingslug (Mar 5, 2020)

Denver is always lower than utah..
Cant wait to get on a flying virus tube saturday


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Denver is always lower than utah..
> Cant wait to get on a flying virus tube saturday


I wouldn’t worry about the virus tube part too much. I flew home from Vancouver with 100 or so of Chinese from Hong Kong. I’m well past the incubation period now.  

Ok, I don’t want to jinx it...

But yesterday I sat across from the aisle from a guy who’s coughing his lung out! ( I changed seat after his second or third bout of coughing) So your concern is probably not needed.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2020)

Driving out west?   It makes no sense unless you dont have the financial means.   

I know some Vermonters who drove from N.VT to Vail, 4 years in a row.  Sounds insane, but for a family of 4 with limited financial means, they did it to save $$$$, which I get.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2020)

skiur said:


> Any car built since 2000 can easily go 5000 miles between changes (especially if its all highway miles like a trip out west is) and upwards of 10000 with synthetic.



You're right about the 3,000 miles on standard oil being unnecessarily low, but if you're going 10,000 miles between all your changes on synthetic, you're slowly killing your car.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

skiur said:


> Even with conventional oil, changing your oil every 3000 miles is a waste of money, and bad for the planet.  Any car built since 2000 can easily go 5000 miles between changes (especially if its all highway miles like a trip out west is) and upwards of 10000 with synthetic.  The 3000 mile oil change was brought to you by jiffylube.



Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..



Hawk said:


> 2015 Subaru Recommended with Synthetic is 5K and gas is premium for my car.  Straight out of  manual.  On long trips I change it before going out and when I get back.  The planet will never know.  My cars last longer than most because of it.  Sorry that is what I do.



Yup your engine is basically same as in my 08 Legacy GT minus the turbo (unless you are 3.6R which is fundamentally similar anyway). Subaru says 3,750 mile OCI on my car. I usually aim for 3,000 since that's the number most Subie enthusiasts stick with, and my car is pretty high miles with bolt ons/tune.

My wife's Rav4 I use cheaper synthetic and do 5,000 mile OCI. That's the sweet spot for most vehicles.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..
> 
> 
> 
> Yup your engine is basically same as in my 08 Legacy GT minus the turbo (unless you are 3.6R which is fundamentally similar anyway). Subaru says 3,750 mile OCI on my car. I usually aim for 3000 since that's the number most Subie enthusiasts stick with.



The other thing that he is not considering is that the highway miles that manufactures consider normal are at 65-70 mph for 2 to 3 hours at a shot.  Sure if that is what you are doing then sure your oil will not break down.  Heading west there are large stretches that you can drive 80-90 ever 100mph easily.  You will also be running the car at those speeds for much more extended periods of time.  What do you think that will do to the make up of the oil?  No I will change my oil on trips long before the 10,000 or ever 5,000.


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## AdironRider (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Toyota only does oil changes every 10k on the Toyota care plan on my 18 Tundra, and before that my 12 FJ Cruiser. They check it every 5k, but only replace on 10k intervals. 

Pg 37 here straight from the owners manual:

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/omms-s/T-MMS-19Tundra/pdf/T-MMS-19Tundra.pdf


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## NYDB (Mar 5, 2020)

shwilly said:


> For the foreseeable future our rare trips out West will be flying.
> 
> I have a retirement fantasy of winterizing a small camper and spending all winter roaming around the Rockies and Sierras, wherever is good.



Isn't that everyones fantasy?

I'm planning to spend at least 5 early retirement years doing something similiar in the earth roamer (that my future self will have enough $ to buy)


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

Hawk said:


> The other thing that he is not considering is that the highway miles that manufactures consider normal are at 65-70 mph for 2 to 3 hours at a shot.  Sure if that is what you are doing then sure your oil will not break down.  Heading west there are large stretches that you can drive 80-90 ever 100mph easily.  You will also be running the car at those speeds for much more extended periods of time.  What do you think that will do to the make up of the oil?  No I will change my oil on trips long before the 10,000 or ever 5,000.



I agree although it depends on the vehicle. My car hums along at 3,100 RPM @ 76mph (usual cruising speed to not get pulled over). 5 speed manual. My wife has a 5+OD auto in the Rav, it settles in around 2,200 RPM to go the same speed on the highway.



AdironRider said:


> Toyota only does oil changes every 10k on the Toyota care plan on my 18 Tundra, and before that my 12 FJ Cruiser. They check it every 5k, but only replace on 10k intervals.
> 
> Pg 37 here straight from the owners manual:
> 
> https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/omms-s/T-MMS-19Tundra/pdf/T-MMS-19Tundra.pdf



I'm not going to read the Toyota manual but as a used car buyer (I like value and knowing which cars hold up before I buy them -- also not swimming in money), the idea of having a stealership change my oil -- with oil I don't choose myself and at intervals I have no control over -- total bullshit situation.

My parents do OK financially for example -- one has a BMW the other has a Jaguar. My Dad is like "they're only changing my oil every 7500 miles". If I was in that position I'd change the oil myself halfway in between. For a car that expensive you want to stretch out oil?

I'm not sure everyone understand the physical properties of oil that change over the duration of it's use. Do you want fresh oil with the additives doing their job, or do you want sheared oil that still lubricates (not as well) but with the additives used up and now the addition of whatever various metal particulates have been introduced due to wear/use on the motor?

I'll take the fresh oil. My car absolutely demands it, after 3k miles I can feel a difference in smoothness. Maybe some cars are tuned so you don't notice it, but don't you notice how buttery your car is after a fresh oil change? That's what you should be aiming for all the time.

UNLESS -- you don't care about keeping the car long term and going high miles. Most people who buy these expensive new cars will sell them once the warranty is up anyway, leaving the used car buyer burned by their lack of true maintenance. I look at a used car's CarFax and see they only followed the dealership maintenance with OCI every 7,000-10,000 miles. Oh, hell no! I'll buy from someone who actively knows about their vehicle every time, unless it's such low mileage that it doesn't matter as much.


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## skiur (Mar 5, 2020)

Do what you like, it doesnt matter to me, but what started this convo was the 3000 mile OCI, and changing your oil every 3000 miles  is a waste of money and oil.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Since at least 2005 or so, I've always just done 5k for oil and get my tires rotated at the same time. Keeps it simple. Knock on wood, but haven't had issues with vehicle longevity or short tread life during that time frame. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

skiur said:


> Do what you like, it doesnt matter to me, but what started this convo was the 3000 mile OCI, and changing your oil every 3000 miles  is a waste of money and oil.



If you read my explanation and still don't realize how that statement is generally wrong and especially dependent on the vehicle, I can't help you.

I guess if you consider "wasting oil" an actual problem (as if a few pints extra every year compares to gasoline intake and differences across even similar vehicles anyway), you might be convinced to destroy your car intentionally.

So... you do what you like including 10,000 OCIs if that's what floats your boat! Feel free to wash your car with a brillo pad and clean the ice off the windshield with a baseball bat while you're at it


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Mar 5, 2020)

My decision point is usually based on whether or not driving would take more than 1 day and require a hotel


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## AdironRider (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I agree although it depends on the vehicle. My car hums along at 3,100 RPM @ 76mph (usual cruising speed to not get pulled over). 5 speed manual. My wife has a 5+OD auto in the Rav, it settles in around 2,200 RPM to go the same speed on the highway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm just going to say that you are saying, Toyota, as a company, is inherently wrong and the factory maintenance schedule is incorrect.

Sorry champ, but they know more than you on this one.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> I'm just going to say that you are saying, Toyota, as a company, is inherently wrong and the factory maintenance schedule is incorrect.
> 
> Sorry champ, but they know more than you on this one.



Correct on first point, incorrect on 2nd.

In the 2000s Toyota had to bump up their OCI on various models due to engines getting sludged up and reducing engine life. Oil blowby and clogging PCV (valves) causing sludge. Oil loses it's viscous properties after time, and it's a gradual process not all of a sudden at 6,000 miles it goes from perfect to bad.

In 2004 Toyota bumped up recommended OCI on 97-02 models from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles. This is with synthetic that they were recommending in these vehicles.

Subaru endured a similar fiasco when originally recommending 7,500 mile OCI on WRX, STi, Legacy GT and Forester XT before changing it to 3,750 (HALF) when realizing their engines were failing prematurely, and only because of the absurd recommendation.

Can you tell me what's so much more advanced about oil and Toyota engines now compared to 10-15 years ago? Because I can, and most of the updates such as tighter tolerances and variable valve timing, higher compression actually require fresher/better oil than the old Corollas and Lexus ES could survive on.


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## skiur (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> If you read my explanation and still don't realize how that statement is generally wrong and especially dependent on the vehicle, I can't help you.
> 
> I guess if you consider "wasting oil" an actual problem (as if a few pints extra every year compares to gasoline intake and differences across even similar vehicles anyway), you might be convinced to destroy your car intentionally.
> 
> So... you do what you like including 10,000 OCIs if that's what floats your boat! Feel free to wash your car with a brillo pad and clean the ice off the windshield with a baseball bat while you're at it



Whatever bro, we know you cant ever be wrong about anything so I wont argue with you, to each there own.


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## Hawk (Mar 5, 2020)

skiur said:


> Do what you like, it doesnt matter to me, but what started this convo was the 3000 mile OCI, and changing your oil every 3000 miles  is a waste of money and oil.


No the convo started when I said I change my oil at the end of each leg of a 3000 mile trip that includes driving at high speeds for extended periods of time.  You said I was wasting my money.  
So for a sanity check I texted my neighbor who works at Wakefield Subaru asked his opinion.  He agreed that it is a good idea to change your oil on long trips like that because long duration driving at high speeds breaks down any oil.  Just as I thought.


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## mister moose (Mar 5, 2020)

​


AdironRider said:


> Even 15 years later the sheer scale of distance still blows me away after growing up in the NE where you can be like 7 states away in 8 hours, vs it takes longer than that just to cross Nebraska.


Ugh.  Unpleasant memories there.  Missouri is forever, but that's just training for Kansas.



Hawk said:


> The other thing that he is not considering is that the highway miles that manufactures consider normal are at 65-70 mph for 2 to 3 hours at a shot.  Sure if that is what you are doing then sure your oil will not break down.  Heading west there are large stretches that you can drive 80-90 ever 100mph easily.  You will also be running the car at those speeds for much more extended periods of time.  What do you think that will do to the make up of the oil?  No I will change my oil on trips long before the 10,000 or ever 5,000.


The larger deterioration is the acids that form with each cool down.  It's cycles and time between cycles as much as mileage.




BenedictGomez said:


> You're right about the 3,000 miles on standard oil being unnecessarily low, but if you're going 10,000 miles between all your changes on synthetic, you're slowly killing your car.


Some things will kill the car faster, see below.




AdironRider said:


> Toyota only does oil changes every 10k on the Toyota care plan on my 18 Tundra, and before that my 12 FJ Cruiser. They check it every 5k, but only replace on 10k intervals.



Check it?  You mean quantity?  Color?  Hard to believe they're doing any lab analysis.  The cynical me says they do that because they are mainly interested in seeing the engine last long enough to 1) make it through the lease, 2) through the warranty 3) through any generic customer review period, ie less than 100k miles.



bdfreetuna said:


> I like value and knowing which cars hold up before I buy them -- also not swimming in money...My parents do OK financially for example -- one has a BMW the other has a Jaguar. My Dad is like "they're only changing my oil every 7500 miles". If I was in that position I'd change the oil myself halfway in between. For a car that expensive you want to stretch out oil? ...
> 
> UNLESS -- you don't care about keeping the car long term and going high miles.



Lot's of folks that can afford new cars buy used, as you said, it's cheaper.    Lots of folks that live paycheck to paycheck lease expensive cars.  YMMV.  

How are all you high mileage guys getting your cars to last so long?  Don't you drive in snow, slush and salt in the winter?  Our cars literally dissolve in 12-14 years.  Gone.  Impending structural failure.  At 10-15k miles per year, all I need to do is coax that engine to 150k-190k miles.  Any high falutin oil or change interval that makes the car last longer than 200k is wasted money.  Now on a summer driver princess car, sure.  

And that comment on oil changes harming the planet, oil has to be one of the most recycled items around.​


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

mister moose said:


> How are all you high mileage guys getting your cars to last so long?  Don't you drive in snow, slush and salt in the winter?  Our cars literally dissolve in 12-14 years.  Gone.  Impending structural failure.  At 10-15k miles per year, all I need to do is coax that engine to 150k-190k miles.  Any high falutin oil or change interval that makes the car last longer than 200k is wasted money.  Now on a summer driver princess car, sure.



Idk I've had a 1995 Subaru Legacy go up to 330,000+ miles with only a couple rust spots. Parked outside and driven on dirt roads most it's life.

other Subies went into the 200,000's easily but I decided to switch it up -- one time I did have a head gasket failure on a Forester and being almost 200,000 I decided to throw in the towel at that point. Otherwise it was totally fine.

Some cars are notorious for early rust but I've got an 08 Legacy GT now. 150k on the clock and no rust. Could use a paint touch up mostly from highway chips up front. 349whp/329wtq on the dyno. I consider it a modern classic so even if I break a ring land or throw a rod I'll do a rebuild or swap on the engine. I think the body should be good for another 100k miles before it starts to look possibly embarrassing.

What I take skiing 90% of the time, and on some days it's more fun than the skiing itself


----------



## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

I'm fascinated by these comments on oil...

So my old truck (07 Chevy Avalanche) had GM's "oil life system" which told you when to change your oil based on your driving habits. My driving (including commuting) is 95% highway. It ended up "calculating" that I should change my oil pretty much every 9-10K miles (and this was conventional oil). Kind of nuts, but the truck did have 230K miles on it when I sold it (to my mechanic who still drives it today).  Really wasn't until the end that I had major engine related problems (valve lifter collapsed and we ended up replacing them all while the engine was open to be safe). Having said that, knowing what I know now would I ever do that again? No way. I ultimately decided manufacturers are not to be trusted with their recommendations and that I was lucky.

On my new truck I use synthetic and change it every 5-6K miles. (The "oil life" system still tells me I can go longer...but why push it?)


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

jesus christ jim. i thought i had a high tolerance for long drives but you take the cake

good call re: corona virus and flight prices. i just looked at denver for april 9 - 13 since we are closed for good friday on the 10th, and its under $200. very tempting. a-basin.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Check it?  You mean quantity?  Color?  Hard to believe they're doing any lab analysis.



It's a known, 100% fact, that "checking the oil" means they look at the dipstick and top it off.

This ain't Blackstone Laboratories 


If you want to get to MRG and be car #1, #2, #3 or #4 in the parking lot a Subaru is required. I may have been too stoked to close the door for the photo


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> jesus christ jim. i thought i had a high tolerance for long drives but you take the cake
> 
> good call re: corona virus and flight prices. i just looked at denver for april 9 - 13 since we are closed for good friday on the 10th, and its under $200. very tempting. a-basin.


If you have a lot of flexibility, this is the time to take advantage of the lower fare. 

I don’t believe our chance of getting sick is any worse than day to day living in New York. But you could end up having your flight canceled or being quarantined from back luck. Those are the more realistic risks. It may impact your job or family, inconvenience not illness.


----------



## jimk (Mar 5, 2020)

shwilly said:


> For the foreseeable future our rare trips out West will be flying.
> 
> I have a retirement fantasy of winterizing a small camper and spending all winter roaming around the Rockies and Sierras, wherever is good.



I skied with this fellow last week at Jackson Hole.  He has been living your ski-camper fantasy for the last ten years.   He operates out of western Canada and roams North America about a month at a time before returning to his home base for a week or two before his next new winter adventure.  I call him the man, the elderstatesmen, and the skiing-on-the-cheap sensei.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 5, 2020)

abc said:


> If you have a lot of flexibility, this is the time to take advantage of the lower fare.
> 
> I don’t believe our chance of getting sick is any worse than day to day living in New York. But you could end up having your flight canceled or being quarantined from back luck. Those are the more realistic risks. It may impact your job or family, inconvenience not illness.



https://www.necn.com/news/national-...-coronavirus-flew-into-logan-airport/2241662/
Probably $1 flight from Boston now
No thanks I wait to catch a flight personal due it another year.
" CORONAVIRUS
Man Diagnosed With Coronavirus Flew Into from Loagan airport"


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## ScottySkis (Mar 5, 2020)

jimk said:


> I skied with this fellow last week at Jackson Hole.  He has been living your ski-camper fantasy for the last ten years.   He operates out of western Canada and roams North America about a month at a time before returning to his home base for a week or two before his next new winter adventure.  I call him the man, the elderstatesmen, and the skiing-on-the-cheap sensei.
> View attachment 26513



That's sweet way of life


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> https://www.necn.com/news/national-...-coronavirus-flew-into-logan-airport/2241662/
> Probably $1 flight from Boston now
> No thanks I wait to catch a flight personal due it another year.
> " CORONAVIRUS
> Man Diagnosed With Coronavirus Flew Into from Loagan airport"



If absolutley nobody is getting on airplanes, you're probably more likely to get the virus in your local grocery store or Costco than on Delta.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

yea im prob more at risk commuting to work on the subway>path every day than i would be on a commercial flight. its asses to elbows on those trains at 8 AM and 5:30 PM


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## cdskier (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea im prob more at risk commuting to work on the subway>path every day than i would be on a commercial flight. its asses to elbows on those trains at 8 AM and 5:30 PM



I could never deal with that. Just taking a bus into the city on a weekend when it isn't even crowded makes me want to immediately take a shower.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

I like to think that between the nyc subway and the rodeway inn Rutland I have a top notch immune system at work


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I like to think that between the nyc subway and the rodeway inn Rutland I have a top notch immune system at work



Let's not underestimate years of picking molly/kizzle boogers with zero sleep in random Biscuit fan crash pads. True herd immunity at work. You're still gonna need oregano oil to knock out those hookworms though.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea* im prob more at risk commuting to work on the subway>path every day than i would be on a commercial flight.* its asses to elbows on those trains at 8 AM and 5:30 PM



Without a doubt.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..
> 
> Yup your engine is basically same as in my 08 Legacy GT minus the turbo (unless you are 3.6R which is fundamentally similar anyway). Subaru says 3,750 mile OCI on my car. I usually aim for 3,000 since that's the number most Subie enthusiasts stick with, and my car is pretty high miles with bolt ons/tune.
> 
> My wife's Rav4 I use cheaper synthetic and do 5,000 mile OCI. That's the sweet spot for most vehicles.




Just another reason not to get a subaru, engines are just too finicky., Premium gas, oil changes every 3k - no thanks. Drove my last 3 vehicles over 220k. Last one actually my son totaled at 220k.


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2020)

More people have died from the flu this year but no state of emergency for the flu.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Just another reason not to get a subaru, engines are just too finicky., Premium gas, oil changes every 3k - no thanks. Drove my last 3 vehicles over 220k. Last one actually my son totaled at 220k.



I agree for the most part. But if you want an AWD(good AWD) vehicle with manual transmission and superior driving dynamics there's not a lot of competitive options unless you want to pay 4x the price for marginally better performance and less reliability. Especially if we're talking sedans rather than truck-like vehicles. I'm thinking of adding a Nissan Xterra 4.0L manual to my driveway but we'll see.

But 220k miles any Subaru will easily do if you don't abuse it badly. They do go the distance if you maintain them. I'm kind of a car nerd and a cheapskate to maintenance is something I'm into anyway.

5k mileage is fine if you have a stock NA Subie and use good oil. It's not that drastic on maintenance unless you're turbo'd.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Let's not underestimate years of picking molly/kizzle boogers with zero sleep in random Biscuit fan crash pads. True herd immunity at work. You're still gonna need oregano oil to knock out those hookworms though.



those were the days. i'd love to take a time machine back to 2009, just for a couple weeks of summer tour.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I agree for the most part. But if you want an AWD(good AWD) vehicle with manual transmission and superior driving dynamics there's not a lot of competitive options unless you want to pay 4x the price for marginally better performance and less reliability. Especially if we're talking sedans rather than truck-like vehicles. I'm thinking of adding a Nissan Xterra 4.0L manual to my driveway but we'll see.
> 
> But 220k miles any Subaru will easily do if you don't abuse it badly. They do go the distance if you maintain them. I'm kind of a car nerd and a cheapskate to maintenance is something I'm into anyway.
> 
> 5k mileage is fine if you have a stock NA Subie and use good oil. It's not that drastic on maintenance unless you're turbo'd.


I'll take my VW Alltrack over a Subaru thank you. Pretty much the perfect car IMO.   I'll eventually deal with VWs own unique reliability issues, but I don't view their issues as badly as Subaru. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

i dunno if this is true, but a friend just told me CO has its first coronavirus case, and its in the town of VAIL. 

i LOL'd


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> those were the days. i'd love to take a time machine back to 2009, just for a couple weeks of summer tour.



I made that joke @ you because listening to Phish all day and cranking it. Just the mention of 2009 brings back rediculous memories.



deadheadskier said:


> I'll take my VW Alltrack over a Subaru thank you. Pretty much the perfect car IMO.   I'll eventually deal with VWs own unique reliability issues, but I don't view their issues as badly as Subaru.



no worriers I'm not a Subaru supremacist. I assume that's an AWD wagon which is my favorite kind of vehicle. I just want people to help their cars go the distance by using correct oil and changing it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

Yes, AWD wagon with 6spd MT.  It's basically what the Outback used to be prior to Subaru SUVing it and eliminating MT.  Only more balls and better handling.   Thing is a beast with snow tires.  Sadly it's being discontinued after this model year.  Honestly considering buying a second one and basically garaging it to replace the existing one when we wear it out in 7-8 years.  The Alltrack is the last true wagon available with AWD and MT in the States.  Might not see one sold here again. And no, the Crosstrek doesn't count. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

And my time machine year would be 94.  12 Phish and 14 GD shows between summer and fall tours.  Crazy to think how my 19 year old self pulled it off, but I basically just fell into a lucrative Fungi business and ran with it.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ScottySkis (Mar 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If absolutley nobody is getting on airplanes, you're probably more likely to get the virus in your local grocery store or Costco than on Delta.



Many reasons I have for not wanting to fly out west most people on here don't know
.
How much plane ticket ABC?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 5, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> And my time machine year would be 94.  12 Phish and 14 GD shows between summer and fall tours.  Crazy to think how my 19 year old self pulled it off, but I basically just fell into a lucrative Fungi business and ran with it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app




My time machine is def not to see 2009 phish. Biscuits were slaying 09 and I was in grad school with no responsibility at all. phish was embarrassing in 09

I started seeing phish in 99. I was 14. Best phish I saw was all in 03-04 (IT, spac04). 09 made me dislike them and I’ve been sporadic for all of 3.0. bakers dozen was cool.


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## x10003q (Mar 5, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Idk I've had a 1995 Subaru Legacy go up to 330,000+ miles with only a couple rust spots. Parked outside and driven on dirt roads most it's life.
> 
> other Subies went into the 200,000's easily but I decided to switch it up -- one time I did have a head gasket failure on a Forester and being almost 200,000 I decided to throw in the towel at that point. Otherwise it was totally fine.
> 
> ...



If I was pulling that HP and TQ out of that engine, I might be changing the oil every fill up.:razz:


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes, AWD wagon with 6spd MT.  It's  basically what the Outback used to be prior to Subaru SUVing it and  eliminating MT.  Only more balls and better handling.



Not counting Outback XT 05-09 

I think if my car kicked the bucket I'd do a 2010 Forester XT, give it sport springs+struts and a tune, 6spd manual, you'll do 6 second 0-60s no problem.

What you lose in agility you make up for in a little added durability.



x10003q said:


> If I was pulling that HP and TQ out of that engine, I might be changing the oil every fill up.



It's pretty mellow like a normal Subie until you floor it and make a pass or merge on the highway. Bigger turbo gives you more top end power but also less punch on the low end. That's more than made up for with other bolt ons + tune though. One thing about modding it a lot is that it's been ultra maintained and I know exactly what to expect with the vehicle.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> My time machine is def not to see 2009 phish. Biscuits were slaying 09 and I was in grad school with no responsibility at all. phish was embarrassing in 09
> 
> I started seeing phish in 99. I was 14. Best phish I saw was all in 03-04 (IT, spac04). 09 made me dislike them and I’ve been sporadic for all of 3.0. bakers dozen was cool.


My time machine Biscuits is probably 98-99 Phish after parties. lol.  

As for Phish

1.0 - 75 shows
2.0 - 0
3.0 - 12ish

I peaced out on Phish Fall 99' because of the Opioid explosion.  The scene went from, "What's an Oxy?" in 98 to kids stabbing needles in the stairwells by 99 Fall tour.  I never partook.  Saw, friends go down hard with it all. More than a few dead today because of it. Trey was doing the same thing, which made for some fantastically creative jams, but a gross scene. 

I'm glad their still at it.  Baker's was great

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mister moose (Mar 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If absolutley nobody is getting on airplanes, you're probably more likely to get the virus in your local grocery store or Costco than on Delta.


In case anyone buys a cheap airline ticket and wants to improve the odds, the outflow valves are in the rear of the cabin.  That means the overall airflow is front to back.  Recirc fans mix it up some, but the fresher air is towards the front.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 5, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Trey was doing the same thing, which made for some fantastically creative jams



I was at Coventry, which was everyone's last 2.0 show I guess and basically it was Trey nodding out the whole time... total disaster musically. I'm a guitar player and Trey was my main influence for a decade or so, I always considered opiates to be a destructive force insofar as his energy goes.... 

Spac 2004 was another disaster musically

But then next show I saw in 2009 (Fenway 3.0 show) and then Albany 2 night run + UMASS much better. Then I kind of had to leave the scene and lost interest.

There is some creativity at the onset of a depressive downfall, just like not all songs on Round Room sucked, but it's short lived.


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea im prob more at risk commuting to work on the subway>path every day than i would be on a commercial flight. its asses to elbows on those trains at 8 AM and 5:30 PM


Totally!


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## abc (Mar 5, 2020)

There's a reality behind the hypothetical question.  

Having canned the Tahoe trip due to lack of snow, I had been busy putting together a 10 day trip to Colorado. Flying of course. 

Then 2 days ago, my office had asked all staff to "work from home if practical", without specified for how long. At first, I didn't take it seriously. I thought it's just panic speaking. I'll enjoy a day or two of not having to come into the office. But now it looks like this thing is for real. (I couldn't leave before this anyway, other obligation, which is now discharged) 

So, where's "home" for a skier? 

I could just fly out for 10 days. Hopefully by then, the virus scare will be over. And I got 10 days free vacation. (my work is fairly independent. I can do 80% of it after the lift closes). 

But I don't think it'll be over that soon. It can last anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks. Hence the happy dilemma of driving vs flying. It could potentially last for more than 4 weeks. In which case, driving would be far more economical. But most importantly, driving will give me the flexibility to come back when this thing is over, without having to guess when to fly back. 

My 2nd worry is flight options will be limited as fewer and fewer people travel. If I fly, I would only buy outbound ticket. I'm pretty sure the return leg will be cheap. Instead of gambling on a round trip ticket and hoping the return leg will still be operating in 10 days or 2 week time. 

If I have to come back in 2 weeks, I lose a bit of money and quite a lot of time. 3 weeks, break even in cost and still lose time. But by then, I'm not sure I even care about the 4 days I lose on the road. The freedom of having a mini-vacation without taking vacation time is worth it. 

Oh yes, I have to bring my work computer with me to work efficiently. Though that's a very light weight laptop. So not a burden even if I have to lug it onto a plane.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2020)

mister moose said:


> In case anyone buys a cheap airline ticket and wants to improve the odds, the outflow valves are in the rear of the cabin.  That means the overall airflow is front to back.  Recirc fans mix it up some, but the fresher air is towards the front.



Dont planes have pretty solid HVAC to begin with?  I would think the biggest contagion is your chair handles & seatback table.


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## Cornhead (Mar 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Check again. Flight cost plummeted due to coronavirus scare.
> 
> Denver & Vancouver $300 for tomorrow, multiple airlines. Haven’t checked other destinations. I wouldn’t be surprised they’ll be reasonable too.


Shit, wish I would've waited to book. Booked a flight 4/4 to Denver leaving Scranton, an hour from home, for $480, it is now $200! Oh well, at least I'm using rewards points, so it isn't out of pocket. Now I just hope my trip isn't scrubbed due to the outbreak. Just checked prices for flying out of Binghamton, and for some reason it is $1,000. Hard to believe the difference is $800 from flying out of Scranton.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 6, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm fascinated by these comments on oil...
> 
> So my old truck (07 Chevy Avalanche) had GM's "oil life system" which told you when to change your oil based on your driving habits. My driving (including commuting) is 95% highway. It ended up "calculating" that I should change my oil pretty much every 9-10K miles (and this was conventional oil). Kind of nuts, but the truck did have 230K miles on it when I sold it (to my mechanic who still drives it today).  Really wasn't until the end that I had major engine related problems (valve lifter collapsed and we ended up replacing them all while the engine was open to be safe). Having said that, knowing what I know now would I ever do that again? No way. I ultimately decided manufacturers are not to be trusted with their recommendations and that I was lucky.
> 
> On my new truck I use synthetic and change it every 5-6K miles. (The "oil life" system still tells me I can go longer...but why push it?)



I do the same thing, with pretty much the same results, except I use Mobil 1 engine oil, and Gear Lube in the front and rears. GM Auto-Trac II in the transfer, and Dexron 6 for the trans.


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## kingslug (Mar 6, 2020)

Interesting thread evolution.
motor oil
coronavirus
flying and driving
and...Phish

Our Outback has proven very reliable  and with snow tires unstoppable
Flying to SLC tomorrow..hopefully coming back in the same condition...no plague..
Never listened to Phish
that about covers it for me.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 6, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> More people have died from the flu this year but no state of emergency for the flu.



Yeah, noboday says a thing about the common flu/Influenza



> The CDC estimates that as *many* as 56,000 people *die* from the *flu* or *flu*-like illness each *year*.


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## kingslug (Mar 6, 2020)

True but this virus has spread faster..much faster. Once it made it out of China is went wild. Remember..its a "new" thing..common flu is an old thing.


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## abc (Mar 6, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Shit, wish I would've waited to book. Booked a flight 4/4 to Denver leaving Scranton, an hour from home, for $480, it is now $200!


Call the airline. Many airline will give you a refund of the difference.


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## Cornhead (Mar 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Call the airline. Many airline will give you a refund of the difference.


Thanks abc, I'll give it a shot, doesn't hurt to ask.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


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## FBGM (Mar 6, 2020)

Unless your spending a season out west you’re a moron to drive for a short trip

Flights are cheap and easy. You could take a Friday off work - round trip to SLC and ski 2-3 days and fly back and be at work Monday morning.


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## kingslug (Mar 6, 2020)

Used to do that with Jet Blue..redeye flight back Monday morning... 99 bucks.


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## Bandit2941 (Mar 6, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Shit, wish I would've waited to book. Booked a flight 4/4 to Denver leaving Scranton, an hour from home, for $480, it is now $200! Oh well, at least I'm using rewards points, so it isn't out of pocket. Now I just hope my trip isn't scrubbed due to the outbreak. Just checked prices for flying out of Binghamton, and for some reason it is $1,000. Hard to believe the difference is $800 from flying out of Scranton.
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Same thing with our 4/5-4/12 to Denver out of Albany on southwest. It was 30k points or $460. Now it’s 20k points or $315. Nice thing about southwest and using points is they return the points to you if you rebook. For my friends that paid cash they get a travel credit to be used within a year.


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## jimk (Mar 6, 2020)

FBGM, you are generally correct about the appropriateness of driving west only for longer trips.  However, I personally do not like the kind of weekend trips you suggest, and always advise friends and family against them if they have a little extra vacation time.  For those who are in great ski shape, never suffer altitude effects, and are age 27 those quickie western trips can work.  But I see a lot of burnt cookies out west, particularly at high altitude Colorado resorts, who feel like crap due to altitude their first two days, have sore muscles on their third day, and then take a red eye flight and I'm sure feel even worse back home on Monday morning:lol:

A couple things I could add about all my drives from DC to CO/Rockies:
- I never did the drive for less than 5 ski days; e.g., drive Sat and Sun, ski M-F, drive Sat and Sun.  And often those trips included another day for a rest day during the middle of the week. 
- I often was accompanied by one or more family members who I was sponsoring, meaning it wasn't just a single air fare I was avoiding paying.  This makes the gas costs vs. flight costs a little closer.  Also, seems to me air fares a few years back were generally a little more expensive than in recent years compared to folks average incomes.
- Several of my short duration western drive trips occurred over Holiday periods when air fares were highest and some I decided to do on only a couple weeks notice when air fares can be higher when purchased two weeks before flight dates.
- About a dozen of my drives occurred before I bought my first 4wd vehicle in 2013.  And I got away with minimal changes to my driving and vehicle habits or costs.  Remember, I live in DC area most of the year.
- There has been only one trip that was moderately effected by snowy road closures.  In early Jan of 2011 my son and I drove from DC area to SLC.  Sharing the driving, We had planned to make it to SLC in two days, but got stopped in Rawlins, WY due to a closure of I80 because of blowing snow and low visibility.  We planned to ski one day each at Snowbasin, Powder Mtn, Brighton, Solitude, Snowbird and Alta.  Because we had our car we slid all those plans one day and were able to still hit all mtns, then we drove back to DC and returned one day later than originally planned.  ALSO, that trip in 2011 was taken in my son's old 1992 Honda Accord with regular tires. (He bought snow tires for it the next winter )

From family of six roadtrip to Killington 2001.  Little guy in this photo is PSIA L-3 at Snowbird now.






From family of six roadtrip to CO over Christmas Holidays 2003.  This is with one of my daughters at Eldora.





With my son on the aforementioned 2011 trip to Utah.





Had a really nice nine day trip during Christmastime 2014, three ski days at Aspen and two powder days at Loveland:





From the 7000 mile, 3 week roadtrip in 2018, Sunshine Delirium Dive


and Meet the Neighbors at Revy, he just came through that notch in upper center:


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## Bandit2941 (Mar 6, 2020)

Here’s my take on the oil situation as a long time car guy.

The 3k oil change interval was invented back in the day when engines were much more inefficient and “dirtier” than they are now. Nowadays it’s a waste of money to change the oil that often.

My old car, 2006 Chevy, had the oil life monitoring system. I always changed the oil when it got between 5 and 10%. That was typically between 10 and 12k miles. I used synthetic oil and wix filters. I sold the car with 220k miles on it and it’s still going strong.

My new car, 16 Chevy, also has the oil life monitoring system. But it wants me to change the oil much more often, like around 6-7k miles. The reason for this appears to be that the engine is a 1.4 turbo that has direct injection, which means the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber like a diesel. With typical fuel injection, fuel is injected into the intake manifold where it mixes with incoming air. The fuel air mixture then cleans the intake valve on its way into the chamber. With the direct injected engines the intake charge is dry, so no cleaning of the intake valve. As the oil gets older it is more likely to cause deposits on the intake valve so direct injected engines should have the oil changed more frequently. https://www.aa1car.com/library/intake_valve_deposits_gdi_engines.htm

As far as Subarus, all of them 2010 and older are susceptible to head gasket and warping head issues. My machinist for my race car stuff mills Subaru heads often. In 2011 this was supposedly fixed, but my wife’s 2011 Legacy overheated one night and was low on coolant at only 160k miles. Suspecting a head gasket issue we topped off the coolant and traded it in right away on a new one so it’s the dealerships problem now. That car also got very rusty in only 5 or 6 years, both the body and underside. I believe the 2011 recommended 7500 mile oil change intervals in the manual. 

On the race cars we get about 7.5 miles per oil change or about 30 burnouts and quarter mile passes :grin:


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## Cornhead (Mar 6, 2020)

Bandit2941 said:


> Same thing with our 4/5-4/12 to Denver out of Albany on southwest. It was 30k points or $460. Now it’s 20k points or $315. Nice thing about southwest and using points is they return the points to you if you rebook. For my friends that paid cash they get a travel credit to be used within a year.


Perhaps I should contact Chase, I used their rewards points to book the flight. I called United today, they told me yes I can cancel, $200 penalty. His first question was what class ticket, economy, of course. I'm tempted to call back and say first class, if he says yes, I can cancel with no penalty, hang up, upgrade my reservation to first class, cancel, and book another economy flight. As it sits now, price has increased slightly to $236, so I could save $50 by canceling and rebooking. I wonder if my flight will even happen a month from now.

Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimk (Mar 6, 2020)

abc said:


> There's a reality behind the hypothetical question.
> 
> Having canned the Tahoe trip due to lack of snow, I had been busy putting together a 10 day trip to Colorado. Flying of course.
> 
> ...



I think you are talking yourself into driving.  You know you want to:lol:





Or in case you travel with a large quiver:


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## JimG. (Mar 6, 2020)

jimk said:


> I think you are talking yourself into driving.  You know you want to:lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Applause for jimk.

For driving out west and for your (dream) auto choices!


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 6, 2020)

Bandit2941 said:


> The 3k oil change interval was invented back in the day when engines were much more inefficient and “dirtier” than they are now.



I agree up until a certain point and you mention the direct injection issue next.



Bandit2941 said:


> My new car, 16 Chevy, also has the oil life monitoring system. But it wants me to change the oil much more often, like around 6-7k miles. The reason for this appears to be that the engine is a 1.4 turbo that has direct injection, which means the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber like a diesel. With typical fuel injection, fuel is injected into the intake manifold where it mixes with incoming air. The fuel air mixture then cleans the intake valve on its way into the chamber. With the direct injected engines the intake charge is dry, so no cleaning of the intake valve. As the oil gets older it is more likely to cause deposits on the intake valve so direct injected engines should have the oil changed more frequently.



Add a turbo to direct injection and you have a platform a lot more dependent on quality oil than port injected naturally aspirated. So it seems to me the "hey day" for using crap oil and long OCI was 90's into mid 2000s before these trade-offs were introduced (or for turbos just introduced more widely).



Bandit2941 said:


> As far as Subarus, all of them 2010 and older are susceptible to head gasket and warping head issues. My machinist for my race car stuff mills Subaru heads often. In 2011 this was supposedly fixed, but my wife’s 2011 Legacy overheated one night and was low on coolant at only 160k miles. Suspecting a head gasket issue we topped off the coolant and traded it in right away on a new one so it’s the dealerships problem now. That car also got very rusty in only 5 or 6 years, both the body and underside. I believe the 2011 recommended 7500 mile oil change intervals in the manual.



I believe all 2.5L NA are susceptible to the same potential failure even with updating the part # on the gasket to a supposedly more durable material. That probably includes up to current day models although they're too new to see failures.

None of the turbo engines either 2.0 2.2 or 2.5(USDM WRX STI LGT FXT 2005+) suffered head gasket problems on a regular basis. It still happens but pretty rare and usually won't occur at all even on high mileage models. The 3.0L and 3.6L H6 never had much of an issue with it either.

The thing about the new WRX 2.0 and probably 2.4 direct injection -- you gotta walnut blast the valves every 50k miles to keep it running right. Stupid. This is why the smarter manufacturers do direct/port dual injection now.


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## abc (Mar 6, 2020)

jimk said:


> I think you are talking yourself into driving.  You know you want to:lol:


Of course I want to drive. Just looking for justifications. 

At first, I worried about return flights got canceled and I’m left in a lurch. But then I realize I can just buy a one way ticket and still have the flexibility. 

But I would meed to rent a car, which on the other hand is getting really cheap by the day...

The only justification I could thinks of is really just my guess that this thing will last for more than 2 weeks, at which point the time spend driving starts to make sense...

I could be wrong. But the penalty is not that high...


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## Edd (Mar 6, 2020)

If you’re looking for justifications to avoid airplanes, then dodging the Coronavirus Petri dish may help. 


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## JimG. (Mar 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Of course I want to drive. Just looking for justifications.
> 
> At first, I worried about return flights got canceled and I’m left in a lurch. But then I realize I can just buy a one way ticket and still have the flexibility.
> 
> ...



I think you can be sure this is not going to resolve in 2 weeks. The ramping up of infection rates has just started. Folks should be happy if there is a vaccine developed before next winter.

That said, the panic fomented by humanity in general is disappointing. We like to scare the shit out of each other and I just don't buy into it. The folks dying from coronavirus are those who are sick already, very old or very young. They could just as easily die from influenza which on average 20,000 Americans die from every year. 

But rationality isn't part of the equation anymore so there is no guarantee your flights won't be cancelled or you quarantined. With the "chicken little" attitude that everything is a guaranteed disaster, I would not risk flying anywhere. I would drive.

Which unfortunately does not preclude you getting quarantined in your hotel. Good luck.


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## mister moose (Mar 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Dont planes have pretty solid HVAC to begin with?  I would think the biggest contagion is your chair handles & seatback table.


Not sure what you mean by 'solid'.  It's bleed air (which is warm) and AC.  I was referring to micro-droplets in the air, but sure, you can get it from a surface that has been infected in the last few hours also.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> The ramping up of infection rates has just started | Folks should be happy if there is a vaccine developed before next winter.



I think we're going to find out eventually a lot of the population caught the virus, in many cases already, and thought it was a regular cold or maybe an unusual cold. Since it is so mild in most people and resembles cold, vast majority of cases go unreported and people recover easily and normally. But that means it's already been spread. Cat's out of the bag on this one.

Whatever was happening in Wuhan where there were rooms full of people having seizures at the same time and people dropping dead on the sidewalk -- seems to be another factor in play. That's not happening elsewhere.


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## JimG. (Mar 6, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I think we're going to find out eventually a lot of the population caught the virus, in many cases already, and thought it was a regular cold or maybe an unusual cold. Since it is so mild in most people and resembles cold, vast majority of cases go unreported and people recover easily and normally. But that means it's already been spread. Cat's out of the bag on this one.
> 
> Whatever was happening in Wuhan where there were rooms full of people having seizures at the same time and people dropping dead on the sidewalk -- seems to be another factor in play. That's not happening elsewhere.



I agree with this. Many people already got infected and recovered and are not reflected in the stats.


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## abc (Mar 6, 2020)

The virus won’t get resolved in 2 weeks. Maybe not even in 2 months. But I wonder how long the panic and the resulting chaos will last though. 

Not to make light of the issue. Several thousand dead in one city within a month, that is a lot! The rest of the world is spared that horror partly thanks to the quarantine. 

Im not too concerned about catching the virus on a plane. But I do worry about being quarantined if a passenger is found to be sick. (I’m not staying in hotel once I arrive at Colorado. Have a place to crash)


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## JimG. (Mar 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Im not too concerned about catching the virus on a plane. But I do worry about being quarantined if a passenger is found to be sick. (I’m not staying in hotel once I arrive at Colorado. Have a place to crash)



I would not risk the flight myself for the quarantine risk you mention. 

Other than that, all you need now is the Porsche or Corvette and you're good.


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## abc (Mar 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Other than that, all you need now is the Porsche or Corvette and you're good.


You mean a Beemer won’t cut it?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

JimG. said:


> *the panic fomented by humanity in general is disappointing. We like to scare the shit out of each other and I just don't buy into it. *The folks dying from coronavirus are those who are sick already, very old or very young. They could just as easily die from influenza which on average 20,000 Americans die from every year.



Amen*.

South Korea is a modern, advanced healthcare nation, and it has the most robust & reliable COVID19 data to date, and their death rate is currently running at 0.65% (and their scientists think that's likely a bit too high due to non-counting of asymptomatic & mild cases).

In short, with no exaggeration, I do believe this is the most over-hyped hysteria I've seen in my life on this planet.  If you're > 65, stay safe.  If you're young & healthy with no serious comorbidities, this is really not a big deal.


* Amen with one exception, the "very young" are not dying from COVID19, and doctors have no idea why.  There are competing theories as to why, but the answer is unknown.  Until we know, let's just be glad kids are not dying from coronavirus.


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## abc (Mar 7, 2020)

I’m not sure what to think. 

Like SARS, and unlike regular flu, it’s killed the young and strong too, albeit at a far lower rate. The old and sick had not even a prayer. It’s cleaning out nursing homes like a wild fire. 

China was in a panic because many of its doctors were killed in the first month! 

Now, it’s more clear what to do both to limit the spread and how to treat once infected. So the mortality rate has come down. China has now begun to relax its quarantines. We’ll soon see how that goes. 

Like evacuation at the forecast of a hurricane, sometimes it blew itself out before landfall. And people were left wondering why bother in the first place. 

The biggest fear is always the virus may mutate to a more dangerous form, given how contagious it is. But if it doesn’t get worse, you wonder why all the panic and chaos is really justified.


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## Edd (Mar 7, 2020)

Anecdotally, I do know of a few people who were down with a flu for a couple of weeks this year, which sounds a bit extreme. I do wonder..


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> Like SARS, and unlike regular flu, it’s killed the young and strong too, albeit at a far lower rate. The old and sick had not even a prayer. It’s cleaning out nursing homes like a wild fire.
> 
> Now, it’s more clear what to do both to limit the spread and how to treat once infected. So the mortality rate has come down. China has now begun to relax its quarantines. We’ll soon see how that goes.
> 
> The biggest fear is always the virus may mutate to a more dangerous form, given how contagious it is. But if it doesn’t get worse, you wonder why all the panic and chaos is really justified.



This is updated daily. You can see mortality rate broken down by age group, preexisting conditions, etc. Once you look at the data it's pretty clear Covid19 is almost a non-issue if you're not getting up in age with poor health already. I don't think it's accurate to say "it's killing the young and strong too".

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

There is also the issue of ACE2 receptors, blacks/Africans seemingly immune or nearly immune, and strong evidence in the genetic sequencing of being a weaponized virus in the first place. I suspect the virus has already been mutating to a less deadly form -- which is typically the course otherwise deadly viruses would just go extinct.

But anyway even without the speculation take a look at the stats.



Edd said:


> Anecdotally, I do know of a few people who were down  with a flu for a couple of weeks this year, which sounds a bit extreme. I  do wonder..



 I had a "wicked cold" about 6 weeks ago, had a fever for 5 days, coughing and sneezing like a mad lad (I remember commenting to my wife how determined that bug seemed to spread), and self quarantined myself. Like I bought sanitizer and used it on everything and worked out of my bedroom for a week. All I know is it wasn't a flu and for a cold it was unusual and severe. In fact I'm still coughing when I wake up in the morning and find myself a little short of breath occasionally. My family hasn't gotten sick in this time span. Now I'm not saying I had coronavirus, but it's definitely been a nagging suspicion.

 What would happen if I went to the hospital and asked if I had coronavirus? They'd send me home and say there's no way to test it. So you either heal up or small chance you develop a severe respiratory issue, you return to the hospital.

Once the "fear" dies down I suspect is when we'll hear how many "cases" there really have been already.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2020)

"and strong evidence in the genetic sequencing of being a weaponized virus in the first place."

as in biological warfare?

source?

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## abc (Mar 7, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> This is updated daily. You can see mortality rate broken down by age group, preexisting conditions, etc. Once you look at the data it's pretty clear Covid19 is almost a non-issue if you're not getting up in age with poor health already. I don't think it's accurate to say "it's killing the young and strong too".


Mortality ”rate” may look small in comparison between young and old. But it’s actually not that small at all. It is in fact inaccurate to say “almost a non-issue if you're not getting up in age with poor health already”.

Fact being, it killed many health workers in China, who were far from “up in age” never mind “with poor health already”.

SARS didn’t kill that many people either. But it killed some doctors and nurses who were neither old nor sick. THAT, is why this virus got the same attention while seasonal flu doesn’t. (and plenty of people felt the SARS scare unwarranted too)


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## machski (Mar 7, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Shit, wish I would've waited to book. Booked a flight 4/4 to Denver leaving Scranton, an hour from home, for $480, it is now $200! Oh well, at least I'm using rewards points, so it isn't out of pocket. Now I just hope my trip isn't scrubbed due to the outbreak. Just checked prices for flying out of Binghamton, and for some reason it is $1,000. Hard to believe the difference is $800 from flying out of Scranton.
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app


Wait a bit, they will likely extend the no penalty to cancel beyond 3/31 fly date it is now.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 7, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> "and strong evidence in the genetic sequencing of being a weaponized virus in the first place."
> 
> as in biological warfare?
> 
> source?



Tom Cotton mentioned the fact there is a Level 4 Bio lab in Wuhan. Feel free to explore that rabbit hole if you like.



abc said:


> Fact being, it killed many health workers in China, who were far from “up in age” never mind “with poor health already”.



Separate China/Wuhan cases from the rest of the world and the anomaly is striking. Again-- where are the masses of people going into convulsions? There's a secondary explanation that we don't know yet (and may never know).

BTW HHS said yesterday:

"The best estimates now of the overall mortality rate for COVID-19 is  somewhere between 0.1% and 1%," Adm. Brett Giroir, assistant secretary  for health at HHS, says. "That's lower than you heard probably in many  reports ... it's not likely in the range of 2 to 3%"


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> *Fact being, it killed many health workers in China, who were far from “up in age” *never mind “with poor health already”.




Can you link the data to that, I'd like to see it?   It goes against what I've been reviewing elsewhere & I dont believe it's true.  

 Frankly, the only data (today) that I statistically trust is the South Korean data for various reasons, and nobody < 30 has died there in the entire nation even though they have almost 7,000 total cases.  Italy is less transparent than I'd like, but their average morality is 81 years old.


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## abc (Mar 7, 2020)

Erhh, it’s mostly in Chinese. 

But I’ll see if I can find the English language source again (My goto for cross checking of rumors from China is scmp.com, a reasonably reputable English paper in Hong Kong. But their web site is really hard to navigate on a phone)


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Tom Cotton mentioned the fact *there is a Level 4 Bio lab in Wuhan. *



That is true.  And it happens to be the only L4 Biosafety Laboratory in all of China, which is a really big country.  

Could the fact that the virus outbreak happened in the same place as the only L4 lab in all of China be a coincidence?  Sure, but I'm pretty suspicious.  I can easily envision a scenario where they discovered a novel virus & were studying it in the lab & somebody there got infected & the rest is history.  I'm not much for coincidences.

That said, the "biological weapon" bit is total BS.  For starters, it's a new virus, not something snipped & altered from any known DNA sequence, and it would also be a really poor "weapon" to begin with.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That said, the "biological weapon" bit is total BS.  For starters, it's a new virus, not something snipped & altered from any known DNA sequence, and it would also be a really poor "weapon" to begin with.



You'd have to tell me if it's a natural mutation or if it isn't. And if it isn't, you'd have to tell me what the purpose was behind making it.

Here is the "strong evidence" I cited a few posts back.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/scien...ding-the-wuhan-novel-coronavirus_3225405.html
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30251-8/fulltext

I'm not trying to convince anyone anything though, we're all in the same boat whatever the case.


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## Dickc (Mar 7, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I think we're going to find out eventually a lot of the population caught the virus, in many cases already, and thought it was a regular cold or maybe an unusual cold. Since it is so mild in most people and resembles cold, vast majority of cases go unreported and people recover easily and normally. But that means it's already been spread. Cat's out of the bag on this one.
> 
> Whatever was happening in Wuhan where there were rooms full of people having seizures at the same time and people dropping dead on the sidewalk -- seems to be another factor in play. That's not happening elsewhere.



There seems to be 2 versions of the Covid-19 virus.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/04/coronavirus-chinese-scientists-identify-two-types-covid-19.html


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## JimG. (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> You mean a Beemer won’t cut it?



Well beemer ok if you don't mind slumming it.


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## JimG. (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> Erhh, it’s mostly in Chinese.



lol


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## The Sneak (Mar 7, 2020)

Re: Porsche as ski car

I remember a couple that used to drive from NYC to the Loaf every other weekend in the 90s, their conveyance of choice was a silver 1991 Porsche 911 Carrera 4 with a ski rack. I always thought that was so cool whenever I would see it in the hotel parking lot.



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## abc (Mar 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can you link the data to that, I'd like to see it?   It goes against what I've been reviewing elsewhere & I dont believe it's true.
> 
> Frankly, the only data (today) that I statistically trust is the South Korean data for various reasons, and nobody < 30 has died there in the entire nation even though they have almost 7,000 total cases.  Italy is less transparent than I'd like, but their average morality is 81 years old.


I can’t find any actual “data”, like how many doctors and nurses died. But it was widely reported in China and Hong Kong, and confirmed by Chinese government, the doctor who blew the whistle on the outbreak had died of the virus. He was in his 30’s. 

I was in Canada at the time. There’s widely TV coverage of it. And some doctor (or nurse?) was interviewed about the state of their working condition. And his comments were “so many of them was sick and dying, we have a big shortage of health care workers”. Granted, infection rate for doctors are high, that doesn’t surprise anyone. It’s the mortality rate that matters. But unfortunately that kind of detail information is not forthcoming from the Chinese government. 

The same news was also widely present in Chinese internet media. But the government had a habit of deleting posts they don’t like. Or deleting “offending” accounts altogether.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2020)

The Sneak said:


> Re: Porsche as ski car
> 
> I remember a couple that used to drive from NYC to the Loaf every other weekend in the 90s, their conveyance of choice was a silver 1991 Porsche 911 Carrera 4 with a ski rack. I always thought that was so cool whenever I would see it in the hotel parking lot.
> 
> ...


AZ member Brad J rolls up to Attitash or Wildcat almost every weekend in a Mustang with snows.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2020)

abc said:


> I can’t find any actual “data”, like how many doctors and nurses died. But it was widely reported in China and Hong Kong, and confirmed by Chinese government,* the doctor who blew the whistle on the outbreak had died of the virus. **He was in his 30’s. *



That's fine, but if so, it's an outlier.  Assuming of course he died from COVID19, and not COLT44.

Almost nobody in their 30's is dying from COVID19.  Almost nobody < 50 is dying from it either.  In those age cohorts, the morbidity rate is quite similar to the common flu.   Again, the media is scaring the **** out of people.


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## abc (Mar 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's fine, but if so, it's an outlier.  Assuming of course he died from COVID19, and not COLT44.


He WAS CONFIRMED to have died of COVID19. 

THAT, you can easily search reports in English. I gave you the starting point. But if you already made up your mind, by all means discount it. 

Next, you will argue the Chinese bungled the test too!


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## kingslug (Mar 8, 2020)

Level 4 biolab
All i need to know


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## EPB (Mar 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Level 4 biolab
> All i need to know


Haha - love it. 

I'll believe it when I see it on this one. I see very little to differentiate coronavirus from the flu at this point beyond fear of the unknown.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2020)

abc said:


> He WAS CONFIRMED to have died of COVID19. THAT, you can easily search reports in English. I gave you the starting point. But if you already made up your mind, by all means discount it.



I mean, what's your point?   He died in his 30s of coronavirus.  So what?  As I noted, his death is an outlier given very few in that age cohort die from COVID19, which we know because many people roughly that age have globally contracted the virus.  I simply asked you to produce the data you're talking about that "young people are dying", and you couldnt do so.

Net/net, the point is, you are 100% wrong, coronavirus is generally not _"killing the young"_ as you said.  There is not a single confirmed infant death globally, and there is only 1 reported death < 10 years old globally that I am aware of.  Deaths of people in their 20s, again, globally, are extremely low. South Korea is approaching 2,000 positive tests in people in their 20s, not a single patient has died.


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## abc (Mar 8, 2020)

The point is, death rate for <50’s are FAR FROM ZERO!

But hey, you can always assume every one of those are “outliers”. Then you can conclude “there’s nothing to fear”. And you’re so convinced of it you want others to believe YOU ARE RIGHT!

I’m giving a different point of view. But hey, you declared I’m “100% WRONG”!

Fine. It’s up to others to draw their own conclusions, based on 2 internet peep neither of whom were infectious disease specialists now had any access to actual data! Perhaps they will find one of the two more believable because he declared the other “100% wrong” :roll:


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2020)

abc said:


> *The point is, death rate for <50’s are FAR FROM ZERO!*



Death rate for < 50 is extremely low.  Remarkably low actually.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  

You obviously do not have a science degree.  
You obviously do not work in healthcare.  

The world would be a better place right now if folks like you do not comment on coronavirus mortality.

South Korea is a modern healthcare nation with a robust data capture network & the most trusted COVID19 data which currently exists on the planet.  They currently have 3,796 cases < 50, and only TWO deaths (data below).  That is a 0.053% fatality rate, which is less than flu. Their death rate from age 30 to age 49 is 0.1%, which is very similar to flu.  They have not had a single patient < 30 years old die.

This is a disease that is quite deadly to the elderly, the young and healthy?  Not so much.


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## abc (Mar 9, 2020)

You obviously don’t what YOU are talking about! That all I meed to say. 

Unlike you, I believe you have just as much right to spill nonsense as any other internet warrior. You so called “knowledge” in science is just an illusion in your own mind. BTW, I do have a graduate degree in science, HARD science, not pseudoscience or voodoo science as many of the degrees these days are. 

And as every REAL scientist knows, nothing can be gain without RAW data, which nobody has yet. You’re using mass media “data” to claim definitive conclusion. You can pretend as much as you like. You’re just another another talking head who’s screaming to be heard. Be my guest.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 9, 2020)

^
There is a bunch of raw data I linked to you a couple days ago, showing extremely low mortality for anyone under ~70 and without underlying illness. You didn't seem receptive to it and still promoting a worst-case scenario. I can only assume you watch a lot of television.

Respectfully. This is not a fun topic for anyone.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2020)

abc said:


> *You obviously don’t what YOU are talking about!* That all I meed to say.
> 
> And as every REAL scientist knows,* nothing can be gain without RAW data, which nobody has yet.* *You’re using mass media “data”* to claim definitive conclusion. You can pretend as much as you like. You’re just another another talking head who’s screaming to be heard. Be my guest.



Your intellectual laziness while hurling insults at people is staggering. 

But what's truly stunning, is you obviously haven't spent more than 5 minutes researching COVID19, yet you hurl insults freely.   Though this is not as impressive as your stubbornness (as others on this board have pointed out over the years) when it's become quite clear you're obviously wrong. 

I'm using Korean data directly from the KCDC, which I mathematically update every morning when it comes out.

I haven't posted Italian data (for several reasons), but I get it directly from Istituto Superiore di Sanita (Rome).

I've worked my entire career in healthcare for over 20 years, from direct patient care, to laboratory work, to Wall Street healthcare equity investing, to pharmaceutical finance.   This sort of analysis & reading of medical research is literally the sort of **** I've done for a living.

But whatever, keep spouting off nonsense about how so many "young people" are dying from coronavirus even though (as of today) *there has only been one single death in a patient under 50 years old in the 2nd largest hot spot on the planet (Italy)*, and *only 2 deaths in patients under 50 years old in the 3rd largest hot spot on the planet (South Korea).*

As I said, the world right now would be a safer, better, less panicked place if people like you left the commenting to people who are healthcare professionals.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 10, 2020)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ghts-if-i-die-i-n1154326?cid=s5m_npd_nn_fb_ma

Most people young people say that they don't mind getting the virus if they get cheap. Flights


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