# Possibly relocating to Vermont, what to expect?



## Bene288 (Jan 15, 2013)

May be making the move out of NY due to several reasons. How are the taxes, standard of living and overall lifestyle? I am in the construction trade which there is always work available, and my fiancé has a very good job in which she works from home. We're  trying to get somewhere that has a small town vibe , but isn't so rural I need to travel 30 minutes to the grocery store. 

Any suggestions?


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## ScottySkis (Jan 15, 2013)

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2

Burlington.


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## drjeff (Jan 15, 2013)

Taxes are high and that's before the highly unfunded VT healthcare law gets fully implemented (read as more taxes) and if many get their way and have VT Yankee not have its license renewed and over 1/2 of the states cheap energy is lost, you'll see those rates going up too  
That being said, if it wasn't for the geographical challenges that it would present for my wife's career, i'd probably move there full time as opposed the 75 to 80 days a year that I reside in VT a year now

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm going to be honest here and try not to get too political.  I hope that you have either won the lottery or are independently wealthy because Vermont is just not an affordable place anymore and it is getting much worse.  I'm a native Vermonter who grew up in the Kingdom.  After college and grad schoolI was making about half of what folks in my same industry were making in other nearby states.  My wife and I really want to own a home--not a mansion but a starter home.  In order to do that in Vermont and be able to be near good jobs you need to plan on paying at least $300k and then prepared to pay $6-10k in property taxes each year.  Factor in other taxes, lower pay, fewer opportunities, higher cost of living, and it just doesn't work for younger folks.  Vermont used to be a place where you could get a decent home at a good price, a decent career with lower, but manageable salary, and a lower cost of living.  But because of folks moving up, the anti-development crowd, folks who feel that they are entitled to everything, folks who want move services, and a very large population that needs services but can't pay for them, the state is quickly becoming a very expensive place to live for the average joe.  

Critics are quick to dismiss these concerns as "pessimism" and point to census data that says that the population is growing or staying roughly the same.  But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you need to look deeper.  Economists have noted that the same census data shows that young families (i.e. the folks in the prime earning years of their careers) are leaving while retirees are coming in.  So the changing demographic is not only making it harder to meet folks your age (assuming you are in your 20's or 30's or even 40's) but that it is making your cost of living higher because the folks who are not working, and likely want or need services (which includes emergency services, healthcare, etc) are not generating taxable wages that support these services.  

We had a hard time leaving andI feel somewhat defeated that we could not "make it" in Vermont....with two professional degrees in our household.  I'm actually pretty upset at the officialdom in the state who refuse to listen to me and other young folks' concerns and continue to be very narrowminded in terms of what to do (which is ironic).  But our move to Utah has really been a good one.  It was tough for me at first to get a new job in this market, but I am now making almost twice what I was in Vermont doing the same work, we can afford our rental housing and are now working with a realtor to find a very nice home right in the city here for a very affordable price, we will pay less than half or even a third in property taxes, see folks like us--20 and 30 somethings with kids, and read everyday about new companies coming and new opportunities rather than folks protesting wind farms because they aren't "green."  It is just unreal how things here are so different and so much better.  And having 500" of average snow at several world class ski areas that are 30 minutes from my house works well for me as well.  

In all honesty our move was a business decision.  We needed a place with higher income potential, lower costs of living, better housing and more affordable options, and great outdoor rec opportunities.  SLC aced all categories.  

So I am being blunt and probably very frank.  Don't expect to be in the Bob Newhart show or to be able to eat Ben and Jerry's each day while enjoying the simple life.  Vermont has a lot of issues that they are not addressing and the demographic changes will only make it more expensive for the folks already there and more difficult for the average Joe to move ahead.  I know that you think NY is bad, but at least you have the potential to make a higher income whereas Vermont you won't but you will pay the same in costs of living and taxes.


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## Puck it (Jan 15, 2013)

New Hampshire is much better if in the right town.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2013)

Puck it said:


> New Hampshire is much better if in the right town.



Agree.  NH has, generally, a better economy.  Folks in my industry made, on average, 30% more in NH than VT right out of school.


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## Geoff (Jan 16, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm going to be honest here and try not to get too political.  I hope that you have either won the lottery or are independently wealthy because Vermont is just not an affordable place anymore and it is getting much worse.



The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.

Single
$0 to $34,500 - 3.55%
$34,500 to $83,600 - 6.8%
$83,600 to $174,400 - 7.8%
$174,400 to $379,150 - 8.8%
Above that 8.95%

New Hampshire has no income tax.   Massholia is a 5.3% flat tax.


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## Puck it (Jan 16, 2013)

Geoff said:


> The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.
> 
> Single
> $0 to $34,500 - 3.55%
> ...



Unless Mini Me aka Cadiallac Deval raises it and adds the $0.025 per mile driven. We are still better then VT though.


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2013)

Maybe you can get a construction gig up in the NEK on all the Jay Peak initiatives  

I'd be interestedin hearing from vdk03 - his family is all in Vermont and he is in the construction trade as well. They just moved out to Breck from VT about a year ago and I'm interested on his take on the economy and getting work. They lived more in the Rutland area.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 16, 2013)

Not to hijack your thread, but we are looking to move out of NY (LI) and up to the central CT area (not set in stone) but thats where i grew up, we feel we can get more for our money, have a better quality of life without sacraficing schools, culture etc....we're at the 35,000' view now but are seriously looking into it....


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## Nick (Jan 16, 2013)

Puck it said:


> Unless Mini Me aka Cadiallac Deval raises it and adds the $0.025 per mile driven. We are still better then VT though.



MA has the advantage of being a population center with a lot of technology innovation. I think further out west in the Catskills MA faces some of the same issues as VT probably does. 

Didn't huck_it_baby just move to Vermont? 

Bene: are you self employed contractor?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2013)

Geoff said:


> The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.



Bingo.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2013)

Re: MA.  

Higher costs of living and higher taxes overall, but as Nick said, if you live in the 495 belt you can make substantially more to offset that.  Western MA, well, no real industry left out there.


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## o3jeff (Jan 16, 2013)

Also depends on what you do in the construction industry. I'm a supplier for large commercial projects and while there's the new phases at Sugarbush, Jay and Killingtons peak lodge, there isn't a lot else going on there compared to MA and CT. While there is some new construction stuff going on, there is tons of rehabs of multi-family housing and old mill conversions with a lot of government money coming down for energy upgrades.


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## Glenn (Jan 16, 2013)

The guys above have covered it pretty well. It's a pretty expensive place to live. On our weekend place, we pay a good amount in property taxes. The electricity is also fairly expensive as well; watch that go up if the Yankee closes. They're also a really "briliant" idea being floated by the state government: Taxing heating fuel. Where do they come up with this ___? We do love it up there; it's nice and so are most of the people. If I were retiring soon, however, I'd probably look into New Hampshire as well.


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## mlctvt (Jan 16, 2013)

Glenn said:


> If I were retiring soon, however, I'd probably look into New Hampshire as well.



I agree with Glenn. My wife and I own a condo at Mount Snow and we've discussed retiring in VT in 8-10 years or so. That was before I really looked into things. We'll be looking into NH as well as western states like Utah. 

Vermont is regularly in the "Worse 10 states to retire to " lists due to taxation. 
Our residence is in CT which also makes the same lists often.  Why do we own in 2 of the most expensive states?


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## gmcunni (Jan 16, 2013)

Bene288 said:


> Any suggestions?



Colorado


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## riverc0il (Jan 16, 2013)

TB has things covered from the native Vermonter leaving due to lack of jobs for business professionals. If you are in construction, you may or may not have better luck depending on the region you move to. Your fiancé having a work from home job means that at least you'll have steady income even if you have a hard time or jobs are not consistent. 

Here is my perspective having moved to Vermont (StJ) and then having left after only two years...

I went with a job in hand at LSC, my partner was finishing up her education at the time so she did the part time student thing. We rented in StJ. We had a really hard time finding friends. What we found was that the younger crowd was either A) getting pregnant and starting up a family or B) leaving. So there wasn't much of the late 20s/early 30s crowd without children (nothing wrong with children, but we found that people with kids did kid things and had other families as friends and the mentality was just completely different). Shockingly, despite the area, I didn't find a lot of outdoor enthusists though lots of people into Nascar, snowmobiling, and country music (again, nothing wrong with that... but it just wasn't the culture we were into). Lots of older folks and retirees and whatnot that shared many of our ideals but we couldn't really find any one our age. So from a cultural perspective, we just didn't fit in.

That was in StJ, the so called "seat" of the NEK. You mentioned wanting a small town vibe, but the more rural you get, I suspect you'll find the cultural differences are only more striking. As a transplant, you'll certainly be taken with a grain of salt. Don't expect people to be welcoming. Hospitable maybe, but you are moving in and taking their job and bringing foreign culture.

What are the exceptions? Known transplant havens. Burlington of course. Mad River Valley for sure. But once you start looking at transplant and cultural havens, cost of living goes up substantially. 

I had another job opportunity in NH and took it, no regrets (except that had I declined my current opening, there was an opening at JSC that happened just a few months after I took my current position... could have been spitting distance from Mansfield and Smuggs but that is the way it goes). NH is a lot more welcoming, less cultural differences. Same issue with not a lot of younger folks without children up here but not as much of an issue closer to Manch. 

Everyone else covered the tax situation pretty well but I don't think that is a great reason to decide where to live. Others will strongly disagree. It wasn't something I gave any thought to when I moved to NH from VT, though. 

I'm a strong proponent of the perspective that skiers romanticize Vermont because they love going there to ski and recreate and what not. But living there is a major culture shock (if you aren't in Burlington area), especially if you come from a city or suburban environment and move into a rural one. I'm not saying I advise against it, I'm sure tons of people make the move and love it. But you gotta do it for the right reasons and understand what you are moving into... it isn't the same place you see when you go to visit and ski.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 16, 2013)

Geoff said:


> The state income taxes are awful unless you make no money.
> 
> Single
> $0 to $34,500 - 3.55%
> ...



Maine is even worse than VT.  I've lived in both places and have no desire to return because of their income tax schedules.



			
				MAINE said:
			
		

> If your income range is between *$0 and $4,850, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 2%.
> If your income range is between $4,851 and $9,700, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4.5%.
> If your income range is between $9,701 and $19,450, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 7%.
> If your income range is $19,451 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 8.5%.
> ...


*


*


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## tekweezle (Jan 16, 2013)

I believe the no state tax ski states are New Hampshire, Wyoming, Washington St, and arguably Nevada. What's the pros and cons of relocating to any of them? Obviously amenities and being far from major population centers. They must make up for the short fall somehow. 

Sent from a HTC Droid Incredible running CM 10.1


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## deadheadskier (Jan 16, 2013)

tekweezle said:


> I believe the no state tax ski states are New Hampshire, Wyoming, Washington St, and arguably Nevada. What's the pros and cons of relocating to any of them? Obviously amenities and being far from major population centers. They must make up for the short fall somehow.
> 
> Sent from a HTC Droid Incredible running CM 10.1



Only real downfall I find living in Southeastern NH is it's a bit far for my liking from the N.Vermont snow belt, but overall I love living here.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 16, 2013)

ME:  I knew it was as bad if not worse than VT, but I did not realize that the income tax burden was that.


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## Edd (Jan 16, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Only real downfall I find living in Southeastern NH is it's a bit far for my liking from the N.Vermont snow belt, but overall I love living here.



Ditto.  2 hours to the Loon/Cannon area, 1 hour from Gunstock, 2 hours to North Conway, 2.5 to Sunday River, 1 hour to Portland or Boston, and you have the beaches here.  Also, it's pretty uncrowded compared to areas to the immediate south.  I think of moving sometimes because this area isn't really the best at anything but there's a lot of good stuff within easy-ish reach.


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## Bene288 (Jan 16, 2013)

Wow, lots of responses! TB, Riv, and others, thanks for the input. I was always under the impression that VT was the lower taxed state but I must have been mixing in up with NH. The move has nothing to do with ski location, We are just sick of NY. I won't get into the politics. 

I have no objection to NH. Never skied there, but I hear it's great and it's pretty close to VT! I visited Keene once looking at colleges and I really liked it. I've lived in Boston, and it's expensive, but you get the income to match the higher cost of living. In Albany everything is expensive. Gas is the highest in the country next to California I think, rental and property values are way to high for the area. I live in a small (about 500sq/ft) 2 bed home in uptown Albany. I am paying close to $1000 just in rental, I know rent is just throwing money away and a mortgage would be cheaper, BUT I would never buy here. There are cheaper places in Albany, but this is the safest area, however I still don't feel safe on my street. When I was younger I didn't the have the steady work I have now, so I couldn't afford the uptown area. We lived in 2 other apartments in the city and they both got broken into and robbed several times, witnessed a stabbing, race riot, had 4 murders in 2 months, all within 7 blocks of where I lived. Sure there are better places in NY, but the rental rates are even higher in neighboring towns. A lot of people don't realize how rural upstate is if you're not near the Capital District. 

On top of it all, the residential construction field in pretty tough to get ahead in. Luckily for me I have some very loyal, very wealthy clients that keep me going for months at a time. Growing up in MA, you didn't see the huge developments and McMansions. A small builder/remodel company like myself can make a good buck out there, but here in NY, you need to build up huge 200-500 home developments. The whole New England vibe is much more modest than upstate NY, it was when I lived there anyway. 

Thank you all for your advice. It's very helpful. I will look into NH, maybe even MA again. I'm actually reffing at a hockey tourney in Meredith, NH in a few weeks, so I'll be in the area. Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2013)

FWIW - both my brother and uncle have contracting companies in the Quechee / Woodstock area.  They get by for the same reason you do; they have a few wealthy clients that keep them busy with the majority of their work.  New construction is extremely limited.  IMO having lived in the Burlington and Stowe areas, VT has a very unfavorable income to cost of living ratio.  $1000 a month would get you a rundown 2 BR apartment in Burlington or Stowe at best.  I have a number of friends from the Albany area who have relocated to Burlington in recent years and they all say their money went a lot further in Albany, but they made the move for quality of life reasons; i.e. access to the outdoor opportunities in VT.


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## xwhaler (Jan 17, 2013)

Bene288 said:


> Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?



I'll try and help as we live in Epping which is technically the Seacoast as NH classifies theior tourism regions. Epping is the western-most town before you get into the "Merrimack Valley Region".
We have been here for 6+ yrs now....really love it. Have seen a lot of growth in the town in a short amt of time. Anyone traveling between Portsmouth and Manchester passes by Epping and you can visually see all the comemrical development right from the highway. We just got a 12 screen movie theatre, Market Basket, Lowes, Walmart, Tractor Supply are all here. Restaurants up and down Route 125 with more on the way. However go off 125 and there is a nice mix of new development with old farms and open spaces/neighborhoods. It feels like the country in some ways while still being 5 mins from everything you would realistically need for day to day shopping/entertainment.
If you want a more vibrant bar scene Manchester is 20-25 mins away. Portsmouth is 30 and Boston/Portland are just over an hour.
I'm real into boating so I trailer my boat over to the ocean most wknds in the summer and launch in Portsmouth for cruising the river, Isle of Shoals, etc.
We originally had wanted to be closer to the ocean...we looked at Dover/Durham/Portsmouth but couldn;t find what we wanted. I preferred a larger lot and 2 car garage. We could get that in Durham but the taxes were quite high...Dover had the generally smaller lots and Portsmouth is a bit pricey.
Skiing wise it's smiliar to what Edd and Ryan have mentioned. I'm closer to the 93 corridor so last wknd I was at Waterville in 1 hr 25 mins door to door from my house. Loon/Cannon are roughly similiar. If you're willing to drive 2.5 hrs each way you can be at a lot of mtns in Southern/Central/Northern VT. Smuggs, Stowe, Jay not withstanding.

The immediate seacoast is still a bit expensive but if you are willing to be a bit west of 95 and a bit East of 93 theres a big zone where I think housing is affordable and good access to the major highways. Raymond, Deerfield, Chester, Candia, Fremont, Epping are all real nice little towns that prob will only to continue to grow as the urbran sprawl makes it way north.


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## mlctvt (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks for the info Xwhaler. My wife and I are considering selling our condo at Mount Snow in a few years and buying a small house in the SE New Hampshire area. We are considering the same towns you looked at, we'll be sure to look at the entire area including Epping this year. The plan is to buy a place which will become our retirement home in 8-10 years. We'll probably be traveling alot and spending winters in Utah and Colorado and other western states so the distance to local skiing wouldn't mater too much. We ski but we are also into road cycling and sea kayaking too,  NH and southern Maine are fantastic for that too. 
We'll probably rent a house for a year or so to be certain before buying.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2013)

Bene288 said:


> Wow, lots of responses! TB, Riv, and others, thanks for the input. I was always under the impression that VT was the lower taxed state but I must have been mixing in up with NH. The move has nothing to do with ski location, We are just sick of NY. I won't get into the politics.
> 
> I have no objection to NH. Never skied there, but I hear it's great and it's pretty close to VT! I visited Keene once looking at colleges and I really liked it. I've lived in Boston, and it's expensive, but you get the income to match the higher cost of living. In Albany everything is expensive. Gas is the highest in the country next to California I think, rental and property values are way to high for the area. I live in a small (about 500sq/ft) 2 bed home in uptown Albany. I am paying close to $1000 just in rental, I know rent is just throwing money away and a mortgage would be cheaper, BUT I would never buy here. There are cheaper places in Albany, but this is the safest area, however I still don't feel safe on my street. When I was younger I didn't the have the steady work I have now, so I couldn't afford the uptown area. We lived in 2 other apartments in the city and they both got broken into and robbed several times, witnessed a stabbing, race riot, had 4 murders in 2 months, all within 7 blocks of where I lived. Sure there are better places in NY, but the rental rates are even higher in neighboring towns. A lot of people don't realize how rural upstate is if you're not near the Capital District.
> 
> ...



$1,000 rental in Burlington: rundown 1 BR if you are lucky, no utilities.  More like a room in a shared apartment :roll:  And if you don't like NY politics you are not going to like VT politics at all.  And a $1,000 per month mortgage would buy you nothing. 

You could consider looking at places like Rutland or Barre/Montpelier, but you will find that these areas are very gritty and have a lot of problems with crime and drugs.  

So yeah, look to NH if you want to move in the NE.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> You could consider looking at places like Rutland or Barre/Montpelier, but you will find that these areas are very gritty and have a lot of problems with crime and drugs.



Yeah, stay off the mean streets of Barre and Rutland after dark.  :lol:

Burlington has WAY more crime and drug problems than anywhere else in the state.  Just because it's got a lot of money and is prettier than Barre and Rutland doesn't mean it's a safer place to live with fewer drug problems.   Do people ever caution others about crime and drugs when they are moving to Burlington?  No. Because those problems aside, it's a fine and very safe place to live.  Same is true of anywhere in the state including Barre and Rutland, which again have far less crime than Btown, they just are more economically depressed, so one would assume the crime is worse.  

I'm sorry, but I get a chuckle out of any suggestion of crime and drug problem considerations anywhere in the State of VT when people are discussing where others should consider residing in the state.

Cambridge, MA looks like Juarez, Mexico compared to anywhere in VT in terms of crime and drugs.  Most would say it's a fantastic place to live if you're looking for an Urban place to reside.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2013)

mlctvt said:


> Thanks for the info Xwhaler. My wife and I are considering selling our condo at Mount Snow in a few years and buying a small house in the SE New Hampshire area. We are considering the same towns you looked at, we'll be sure to look at the entire area including Epping this year. The plan is to buy a place which will become our retirement home in 8-10 years. We'll probably be traveling alot and spending winters in Utah and Colorado and other western states so the distance to local skiing wouldn't mater too much. We ski but we are also into road cycling and sea kayaking too,  NH and southern Maine are fantastic for that too.
> We'll probably rent a house for a year or so to be certain before buying.



I would look at Newington for a place to retire on the NH seacoast.  Lowest property taxes maybe in the state, yet right next door to Portsmouth and right on Great Bay for kayaking.  Property values can be high in Newington, but once you're in, your yearly tax bill for the type of property you buy will be half that of anywhere else in the area.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Yeah, stay off the mean streets of Barre and Rutland after dark.  :lol:
> 
> Burlington has WAY more crime and drug problems than anywhere else in the state.  Just because it's got a lot of money and is prettier than Barre and Rutland doesn't mean it's a safer place to live with fewer drug problems.   Do people ever caution others about crime and drugs when they are moving to Burlington?  No. Because those problems aside, it's a fine and very safe place to live.  Same is true of anywhere in the state including Barre and Rutland, which again have far less crime than Btown, they just are more economically depressed, so one would assume the crime is worse.
> 
> ...



Yeah, relatively speaking....


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## Mpdsnowman (Jan 18, 2013)

When I was a kid I spent a lot of time in Rutland. I had family there..lol most either worked for Killington or GE lol....Gritty is a good term for it but I got to tell ya, I had been gone from there for years and started going back about 7 years ago and it really changed.....apparently when GE went down so did it...

One thing I will say is if you do like green mountains, vermont is your state. I think you could probably find issues in any city or state for that matter but overall I think Vermont is a cool place. Outside the cities are great if you like outdoors...Ive hiked it since I was a kid


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## gladerider (Jan 18, 2013)

very interesting thread indeed, for a flatlander in NNJ looking for an excuse to get out...


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## mlctvt (Jan 18, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> I would look at Newington for a place to retire on the NH seacoast.  Lowest property taxes maybe in the state, yet right next door to Portsmouth and right on Great Bay for kayaking.  Property values can be high in Newington, but once you're in, your yearly tax bill for the type of property you buy will be half that of anywhere else in the area.



I guess I'm deviating for the original thread a but  I hadn't considered Newington becuase from a map view it doesn't look that conducive to good Road cycling since it's surrounded by water. How are the bridges for cycling? Can you ride over them without getting killed?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 18, 2013)

Mpdsnowman said:


> When I was a kid I spent a lot of time in Rutland. I had family there..lol most either worked for Killington or GE lol....Gritty is a good term for it but I got to tell ya, I had been gone from there for years and started going back about 7 years ago and it really changed.....apparently when GE went down so did it...
> 
> One thing I will say is if you do like green mountains, vermont is your state. I think you could probably find issues in any city or state for that matter but overall I think Vermont is a cool place. Outside the cities are great if you like outdoors...Ive hiked it since I was a kid




Looks like Burke Mountain.


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## nelsapbm (Jan 18, 2013)

We have had the exact different experience than thetrailboss and his wife, but let me say...WE ARE LUCKY. Good paying jobs are really hard to come by here. My husband fell into a GREAT job after UVM (software engineering) that he is still at. We were able to build a brand new home on 5 acres for well under $300K 25 minutes to Burlington (10 years ago), I can afford to be a stay at home parent, etc. But again, we are LUCKY. That said, if he were to ever lose his job, there is maybe one other place in Burlington that he could work at (assuming they have openings) - otherwise he'd have to look for telecommuting jobs or we'd have to move.
The vast majority of my friends from high school left the state (I grew up in StJ). Some are coming back now that they have families and are able to secure good jobs through family, friends etc. I imagine it would be hard to move here as an unknown and find a good job right away.
Another thing-every other person here is a contractor it seems. Seriously. They either do it as their full time job or as a second job (many people have second jobs in able to afford to live here). Again..unless you know someone in the industry you may have a hard time breaking in.
So..yes. Salaries are low compared to neighboring states (I took a 12-15k paycut for essentially the same job when I moved back up here from Boston). Housing costs are high in relation to salaries. Heating costs are high. Taxes as have been mentioned.
That said, we absolutely love living here, high cost of living and all.
So....if we haven't scared you off yet - areas to consider. I would avoid the towns immediately adjacent to ski resorts. You're looking at high real estate there. I highly recommend the Burlington area. This is the largest part of the state population wise where most building/construction happens. The further from Burlington you get the cheaper real estate is. I know Monkton, Bristol, Vergennes, Starksboro etc south of Burlington has more reasonable real estate than Burlington and its immediate burbs. Easy drive over 17 to MRG or 'Bush. Bolton is also close.  Same thing if you go north (Milton, Fairfax etc -closer to Jay, Smuggs). My assessment of St. Johnsbury (and really the NEK as a whole) is the same as Riv (and I grew up there LOL). I don't recommend unless you have kids so they can go to St. J Academy or LI. 
Also...if you decide to do this and choose a more rural area be sure there is high speed internet access for your wife to telecommute-not all areas have it here.


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## Edd (Jan 18, 2013)

Bene288 said:


> Can you guys (Deadhead and Edd especially) recommend any towns to check out in the southern NH area?





mlctvt said:


> I guess I'm deviating for the original thread a but I hadn't considered Newington becuase from a map view it doesn't look that conducive to good Road cycling since it's surrounded by water. How are the bridges for cycling? Can you ride over them without getting killed?



Bene, I think Xwhaler covered a good portion of the area but the answer to your question depends on what you're into.  You mentioned a small town vibe and there are a number of small towns with a different feel around here.  If you want to actually live in a downtown area I'd check out Portsmouth (upscale yuppie-ish and the largest downtown area with like a thousand restaurants), Exeter (far smaller but also upscale and busy...could never get a handle on the nightlife there), Newmarket (I'm a total Newmarket fanboy so take this with a grain of salt but a perfect mix of upscale, hippie, working class and college students...very chill), and Dover (sort of a larger version of Newmarket with fewer hippies and more crime).  The order I listed them is how expensive they are to live in starting with the highest.  All of the towns I listed have waterfront property.  It's not obvious at first but water is everywhere here.  And I mentioned crime but seriously the crime here is like a joke compared to places like Manchester just 30 miles away.

If the proximity of ski areas matters generally speaking, living in Southern NH around 95 it's easier to get to Maine and living around 93 makes VT more convienient.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I've gotten to Killington from Newmarket in 2.5 hours, which would make it equidistant to SR in Maine.  VT resorts like Mt Snow in the south are a PITA to get to, in the 3.5 hour range and the drive sucks.  Places like Jay and Stowe are about the same time and a simpler drive.  

Sorry mlctvt, I don't bike so I couldn't tell you much about the bridges.


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## riverc0il (Jan 18, 2013)

Edd is right on the money when saying if you want to ski VT and live in NH, you are better situated along 93 than I95/R16. That east/west drive adds a lot of time... actually faster to get to much of VT from suburban MA than coastal NH. Concord area has a good mix of being close to some small bumps (Pat's, Gunstock, Crotched, etc.), about an hour from Ski93 areas, and an hour from WRJ where many VT areas are only another hour or so beyond that. From up here, I can hit almost anywhere in VT within 2-2.5 hours... not bad.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 19, 2013)

Edd said:


> Newmarket (I'm a total Newmarket fanboy so take this with a grain of salt but a perfect mix of upscale, hippie, working class and college students...very chill),



yup, love our little town equally

http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyl...ing-options/VRJqrF3xPp3xNoF0Cdre6I/story.html


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## tekweezle (Jan 19, 2013)

I've always thought of retiring to ski country and my thoughts have centered around a condo in vt-Killington, pico or Mt snow, or maybe new Hampshire. 

About the only thing I've been considering was condo maintenance costs because that would represent most of my ongoing carrying costs. Effectively, maintenance costs equate to rent. I think costs at condos I've looked at average out to around 490$. But at least the prices for condos have come down realistically. 

 Is there anything else I should be considering? 

Sent from a HTC Droid Incredible running CM 10.1


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## Geoff (Jan 19, 2013)

tekweezle said:


> I've always thought of retiring to ski country and my thoughts have centered around a condo in vt-Killington, pico or Mt snow, or maybe new Hampshire.
> 
> About the only thing I've been considering was condo maintenance costs because that would represent most of my ongoing carrying costs. Effectively, maintenance costs equate to rent. I think costs at condos I've looked at average out to around 490$. But at least the prices for condos have come down realistically.
> 
> Is there anything else I should be considering?



You need to educate yourself about the Act 68 State School Tax.  Vacation home owners are taxed at the commercial rate.  Most of the ski resort towns have gold plated school systems where Act 68 law has residents paying at an even higher rate than the commercial rate.   A typical condo will have the same, or more, property tax than condo fee.   The town municipal tax part is tiny compared to the state school tax.

Vermont has all kinds of poorly funded social programs that are inevitably going to cause taxes to go up in the next few years.   Catamount Health is the biggest problem but Vermont is trying to offer Cadillac social services off a very low tax base.   Most of the state is rural and poor.   Chittenden County has the big population density but, beyond health care and education, it doesn't have a heck of a lot of jobs and the IBM plant, the biggest private sector employer, is teetering.   If IBM goes, you can't drive the economy off a hospital and a couple of Universities.

The Connecticut River Valley is a good illustration of the problem.   All the retail and most of the private sector jobs are over the river in New Hampshire where there is a better tax climate.

Retirees are mostly sheltered from all of this.   The state school tax is means tested.  If you're living on a modest pension, you likely escape a chunk of the tax.   You have to keep in mind that unless you're in metro-Burlington or within striking distance of Dartmouth-Hitchcock, health care sucks in Vermont.   You're not going to have access to the expertise and services that are taken for granted in the flatlands.   As people age, they consume more health care.   Do you really want to be a 90+ minute ambulance ride from decent medical care?


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## AdironRider (Jan 22, 2013)

In case anyone is wondering, nightlife in Exeter is non-existant. 

Tavern is cool but mostly middle agers hanging out after rec hockey or while their kids are at an event. 

Margaritas is the closest you get to the younger crowd, but its mostly local twenty somethings who never left or kids coming home to visit the fam and going out with buds etc. So not the typical lets go out and meet people type place. 

Ive always had a soft spot for Shooters at the bowling alley, but thats only because I could stumble back to the parents house down the street. 

And that sums up Exeter NH nightlife. A rousing good time...

And maybe its better than I always assumed, but is there actually a decent part of Newington that isnt strip malls or the condo complex by the 95 bridge?

That being said, I have a tough time deciding on a place to live based on nightlife. Exeter is a great spot with good schools, underrated MTB scene with Fort Rock and Henderson Swasey forests pretty much a five minute ride from downtown proper, the river is right there, and as mentioned, youre pretty much no more than an hour from awesome skiing, surfing, etc.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> And maybe its better than I always assumed, but is there actually a decent part of Newington that isnt strip malls or the condo complex by the 95 bridge?



Some nice spots behind Pease.  The real estate opportunities are limited, but if you can find a place there, the taxes are dirt cheap due to all those malls.  Like 50% or less the rate than any other town in the area.  I only made the recommendation due to it being an inquiry regarding a retirement home.  On a fixed income, having cheap property taxes is a good thing to have.


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## Geoff (Jan 23, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Some nice spots behind Pease.  The real estate opportunities are limited, but if you can find a place there, the taxes are dirt cheap due to all those malls.  Like 50% or less the rate than any other town in the area.  I only made the recommendation due to it being an inquiry regarding a retirement home.  On a fixed income, having cheap property taxes is a good thing to have.



New Castle is the low tax rate in that part of the world.   $4.97 per thousand of valuation.   Expensive oceanfront property and vacation homes with relatively few children in the school system.   Newington is $8.91.   Lincoln (Loon) and Bartlett (Attitash) are both similar tax rates to Newington.

The problem with Newington is that you can't predict what will become of Pease.   For a while, Pease had commercial jet service and was a repair center for commercial jets and there's always the risk that the airport will get busy again.   I lived in Suffield, CT for a couple of years and I was subjected to the traffic from Bradly Field.   Never again.


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## Geoff (Jan 23, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> And maybe its better than I always assumed, but is there actually a decent part of Newington that isnt strip malls or the condo complex by the 95 bridge?



I lived there for a decade.   Those condos by the I-95 bridge are all in Portsmouth.   Almost all of that strip mall area is in Portsmouth including BJ's Wholesale and Home Depot.   That wimpy Newington Mall is in Newington right on the town line.   Most of the industrial park at Pease is also in Portsmouth.   The Red Hook Brewery is in Portsmouth, for example.   I used to work a few hundred yards from there.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 23, 2013)

Geoff said:


> New Castle is the low tax rate in that part of the world.   $4.97 per thousand of valuation.   Expensive oceanfront property and vacation homes with relatively few children in the school system.   Newington is $8.91.   Lincoln (Loon) and Bartlett (Attitash) are both similar tax rates to Newington.
> 
> The problem with Newington is that you can't predict what will become of Pease.   For a while, Pease had commercial jet service and was a repair center for commercial jets and there's always the risk that the airport will get busy again.   I lived in Suffield, CT for a couple of years and I was subjected to the traffic from Bradly Field.   Never again.



Good point on airport traffic.   Newcastle has the edge on rate for sure, but the property values are more than double that of what you would find in Newington.  As I mentioned though, the real estate opportunities are limited, but I've seen really nice homes on acreage in Newington go for %400K in the past couple of years.   $400K wouldn't buy you an outhouse on a 1/3rd acre lot in Newcastle.


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## Geoff (Jan 23, 2013)

I used to ride my bike into Newington when I worked at Pease.   It's a lot like some sections of my home town where I have my summer house.  Rural waterfront with a lot of woods and farmland ....except that it has a huge freakin' airport next to it.   It's actually kind of surprising that it hasn't been all subdivided by now.


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## marcski (Jan 23, 2013)

My brother has been living in vermont for almost 15 years.  He has a great life up there with, perhaps, the best view from annyone's backyard you could ever imagine....the lake and the 'dacks in the distance.   However, as others have said, he does have an advanced degree and does quite well.  

I also have thought, long term down the road about having a retirement place in Vt.  However, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense for me to just get a place out west....most likely, SLC area or Co.  I have a friend who has had a olace at killington for 30 years and a place at the bottom of LCC for 25.  He rents his place in K and has been skiing SLC from the NYC burbs for the past 25 yrs.   He recently sold his main house back here and upgraded his condo in cotton heights for, rumor has it, a "mansion" even furthur up 210.  And I'm sure he probably banked a good deal of xash in the deal as well.  

If I'm retired why not go out west, ski big and deep and keep a small place somewhere back here clise to where my girls will end up??


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## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2013)

I love how the guy asked about Vermont and most of the discussion as of late is how great Seacost New Hampshire really is.  :lol:


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like Burke Mountain.



Good eye. I agree 100%


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## AdironRider (Jan 23, 2013)

Geoff said:


> New Castle is the low tax rate in that part of the world.   $4.97 per thousand of valuation.   Expensive oceanfront property and vacation homes with relatively few children in the school system.   Newington is $8.91.   Lincoln (Loon) and Bartlett (Attitash) are both similar tax rates to Newington.
> 
> The problem with Newington is that you can't predict what will become of Pease.   For a while, Pease had commercial jet service and was a repair center for commercial jets and there's always the risk that the airport will get busy again.   I lived in Suffield, CT for a couple of years and I was subjected to the traffic from Bradly Field.   Never again.



From what Ive heard, as long as there is still some military presence there, the airport will stay pretty much as is. 

Maybe an old wives tale, but I think it has ties to NASA and was an alternate landing site for the space shuttle. Guess it doesnt have that going for it anymore, but I do know when I was taking my flying lessons out of Hampton Airfield that runway is freaking massive. Way longer than any other airport Ive flown in and out of. 

I dont think you can get into Newcastle for under a mill these days by the by, but I sure wouldnt mind oceanfront with deep water access...


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## Geoff (Jan 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I love how the guy asked about Vermont and most of the discussion as of late is how great Seacost New Hampshire really is.  :lol:



We can hijack any thread.


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## Bene288 (Jan 23, 2013)

So much good information here! Thanks for all the help from everyone. Still need to comb through the thread, I'm stoked to do more research.


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## Bene288 (Jan 24, 2013)

Edd said:


> Bene, I think Xwhaler covered a good portion of the area but the answer to your question depends on what you're into.  You mentioned a small town vibe and there are a number of small towns with a different feel around here.  If you want to actually live in a downtown area I'd check out Portsmouth (upscale yuppie-ish and the largest downtown area with like a thousand restaurants), Exeter (far smaller but also upscale and busy...could never get a handle on the nightlife there), Newmarket (I'm a total Newmarket fanboy so take this with a grain of salt but a perfect mix of upscale, hippie, working class and college students...very chill), and Dover (sort of a larger version of Newmarket with fewer hippies and more crime).  The order I listed them is how expensive they are to live in starting with the highest.  All of the towns I listed have waterfront property.  It's not obvious at first but water is everywhere here.  And I mentioned crime but seriously the crime here is like a joke compared to places like Manchester just 30 miles away.
> 
> If the proximity of ski areas matters generally speaking, living in Southern NH around 95 it's easier to get to Maine and living around 93 makes VT more convienient.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I've gotten to Killington from Newmarket in 2.5 hours, which would make it equidistant to SR in Maine.  VT resorts like Mt Snow in the south are a PITA to get to, in the 3.5 hour range and the drive sucks.  Places like Jay and Stowe are about the same time and a simpler drive.
> 
> Sorry mlctvt, I don't bike so I couldn't tell you much about the bridges.




I just like a bit of a small town feel. I grew up in small towns so it's just what I am most comfortable in, and it's where my trade thrives the best. The construction field in a city is terrible. The politics of it just aren't for me. I've spent the majority of my life under intense stress and I am trying to get away from that for the sake of my health. I don't enjoy having to pay off meter maids so I can unload my equipment/materials on a one way street. 

As far as skiing goes, I am 1.5 hours to Gore, 1.5 to Bromley/Magic, a little longer to Stratton, or 1.5 to the Catskills. I don't mind traveling and never really wanted to live in a 'ski town'. I don't think I could handle the out of towners every weekend. It would be sweet though. I'm usually willing to travel up to 3 hours for a day trip at a good mountain. I would have to have a year round hockey rink in the vicinity. Being in NE and so close to Boston, I'm sure southern NH has ample rinks.

I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with Hingham, MA. Perfect little town in my opinion. Unfortunately it's just a bit pricey to have a home there. 20 minutes to Boston, but has a quaint small town feel. I'm not big into the bar scene anymore, but a local pub is always a good amenity to have in a town.


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## Geoff (Jan 25, 2013)

Bene288 said:


> I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with Hingham, MA. Perfect little town in my opinion. Unfortunately it's just a bit pricey to have a home there. 20 minutes to Boston, but has a quaint small town feel. I'm not big into the bar scene anymore, but a local pub is always a good amenity to have in a town.



Hingham has elite Boston suburb housing prices.   Average home price is over $800K.   It's a 35 minute commuter rail ride to South Station and the town has a pretty good harbor and an OK town beach and Nantasket an easy bike ride away.   If you can afford it, Cohasset is a really nice golf course.  You don't buy into that town on W-2 money.   I have a number of Killington friends who live around there.   It's a tough place to live for a skier since there is a massive Friday afternoon traffic jam between you and all the ski areas.   If you can't structure your life to get out the door by 2:00 on Friday, you'd might as well wait until 7:30.

I opted to locate my summer house an hour south of there where the housing prices are 1/3 of Hingham's.   Better harbor.   More wind for sailing with more places to go than just the Boston harbor islands.   Better town beach and some really good private beaches.   It would be convenient to be able to hop on a train and be in Boston in 35 minutes but I don't need to pay for that privilege.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2013)

Geoff said:


> We can hijack any thread.



Yeah exactly!  And I agree with the assessment of Hingham.


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## timm (Jan 25, 2013)

Hingham is beautiful but "a bit pricey" is being generous. If schools are not a huge concern, Hull is right next door and much more affordable. 

I would never live anywhere on the south shore though just because of traffic. Congestion is terrible virtually 24/7. Traffic is terrible everywhere inside 128, but it is significantly worse down there.


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## timm (Jan 25, 2013)

I'd go so far as to say you could probably live a lot of further out, places in virtually Central Mass, and have roughly the same commute time as closer spots on the south shore if you are traveling into the city during rush hour. A co-worker lives in Brockton and it often takes her over an hour to get to the city.


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## ctenidae (Jan 25, 2013)

I think you can expect to have colder and snowier winters if you relocate to Vermont.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2013)

As far as Hockey on the Seacoast goes, there are rinks in Exeter, Durham and Dover.  My understanding is that ice time is far easier to come by than in the Boston area.  My brother in law plays in a local league and says it's great; far more convenient than where he grew up in Melrose, MA.


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## AdironRider (Jan 25, 2013)

The rink in Exeter is a top notch facility. I believe it was funded by the NHL then ownership trasnferred 7 or 8 years ago. 

Drove the Zamboni round those rinks as a second job for a while. Good times.


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## Bene288 (Jan 25, 2013)

I have fond memories of Hingham. Our house was off of Broad Cove. That's a much more modest area, but still very expensive. I don't think I'd want to live there these days. It's much more congested than it used to be. Definitely more of an elite spot. Like Timm said, the traffic is a nightmare. 

I will look into the towns mentioned in NH. Like you said, Deadhead, ice time is hard to find in the Boston area. I can't remember the last time I was able to actually skate at the Pilgrim.


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