# Silvretta 404, Tua and other BC stuff...



## Marc (Jan 25, 2006)

Anyone have any experience with the Silvretta 404 binding?

They seem reasonably priced now and they looked like they were pretty popular.  Lateral and forward adjustable realease, crampon compatible, alpine, AT, and mountaineering boot compatible...

How are they for durability and ease of use?  Recommend?

I've seen them a few places for sale mounted to Tua skis.  Any thoughts on these?  Not as important as the bindings, I might mount the binders on my Rossy's...


And what about thoughts on skins vs. wax.  I may want to dabble in AT before I go full swing, can you do that with some friction wax instead of investing right away in skins?  Does it work well enough?  How steep will it go in what kind of snow?

If I bought skins, should I go adhesive?  I've heard to stay away from the glue free skins.  How often do they have to be reglued?  Is it feasable to do at home?  Tail and tip attachements or just tip?  Any thoughts, opinions, feelings, brain farts and sentiments appreciated!


----------



## JimG. (Jan 25, 2006)

I've never used the Silvretta, but it has a good reputation. Some prior durability issues have apparently been improved. The Silvretta I hear most good things about is the Pure.

Again, Silvretta has dealt with durability issues in the past but seems to have resolved any problems. They are very lightweight, a good thing for AT. I'm sure they are fairly easy to use. Do the bindings you're looking at come with brakes? Better check, most AT bindings list brakes as an option you have to buy separately.

Learn more about Silvretta here: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1144&highlight=silvretta

Can't help you with the skis.

As for skins, there is no wax substitute for a pair of skins. Friction wax might help out on low angle tours, but then you may as well use XC gear. Get skins with adhesive, glue free is a pain. I reglue about once a year, but I don't use my skins anywhere near as much as I'd like to. Aside from possibly being a bit messy, regluing is pretty easy. DEFINITELY get a tip and tail attachment. If you go for the tip alone, you can make a Lou Dawson rattail pretty easily: 

http://www.wildsnow.com/tips/skin_tail_fix.html

Nothing is more annoying than having a skin peel off at the tail and then get snow and ice packed onto the glue. Sucks on a cold day.


----------



## Marc (Jan 25, 2006)

How do you go about removing the old glue and cleaning the skins when you reglue, Jim?


----------



## JimG. (Jan 25, 2006)

Marc, I've never removed any old glue. I just add a thin layer of new glue when I notice the skins are losing their tackiness. Other than not putting them away wet, the skins don't require much upkeep.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 25, 2006)

skins with glue is a must for AT, imo.  unless you are looking into 'touring' more than up and down, which most people wouldn't both with AT for that type of skiing.


----------



## Marc (Jan 26, 2006)

Cool, thanks for the advice guys.



Damnit all, you're making me want to spend more money...




Riv, looking to do more up and down stuff.  Just want to do light stuff this year, like maybe Greylock if we get some more snow.


And if I do get some binders and skins, I might use em to skin up the Sherburne in the spring.  Even if I don't I still plan on Tuck's anyway.


----------



## awf170 (Jan 26, 2006)

freerides are $320 on backcountry.com which is awsome deal, I searched for months before getting mine and the lowest price I found was $340 with free shipping.  If you dont want to pay that much you get used ones at TGR for about 250-275 if you wait and look around.  Even though that seems like a lot of money there the most durable AT binding(Well maybe the naxo21 is better, but not proven). Also you can trash the bindings for a year or two then sell them on ebay for about $300 anyway.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 26, 2006)

The Freerides have certainly blown me away with their durability. Gotta hand it to the Swiss, these bindings are built to last.

When I got them, I looked at them and assumed I would be bugging my shop to get me parts all the time. As my everyday binding for the past season and a half, I've yet to replace a part. 

They're alot of money, but you get alot too. Great value.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 26, 2006)

> When I got them, I looked at them and assumed I would be bugging my shop to get me parts all the time. As my everyday binding for the past season and a half, I've yet to replace a part.


i actually had the opposite reaction when i first pulled my pair of freerides outta the box.  these suckers are way beefier than i had guessed when researching gear choices.  a solid unit that has yet to have a part fail on me after about 15 or 16 outtings.


----------



## Marc (Jan 26, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> freerides are $320 on backcountry.com which is awsome deal, I searched for months before getting mine and the lowest price I found was $340 with free shipping.  If you dont want to pay that much you get used ones at TGR for about 250-275 if you wait and look around.  Even though that seems like a lot of money there the most durable AT binding(Well maybe the naxo21 is better, but not proven). Also you can trash the bindings for a year or two then sell them on ebay for about $300 anyway.



Cripes, Austin, $320 an awesome deal?  You're not even in college yet.

I'm looking at these 404's on ebay for like, $100 or less.  I just want to dable anyway, I have plenty of alpine skill left yet to develop.  I'm just getting sick of spoon fed trails and the people... way too many people!

Anyway, can anyone speak to me about the durability in general of these touring/randonee/AT (whatever you want to call them) binders?  Riv, your comment gave me a bit of insight being please with 16 outings with a unit and no failures.  That worries me a tad.  Of course, I'm sure I don't ski anywhere near as hard as you do.

Anyway, like I said, I'm just dabbling.

But I clicked outta my Rossy's last night and used a piece of webbing to sling them on my back and hiked a closed trail at Wa last night, and even though the snow wasn't all the great, man being alone was a damn nice feeling.


----------



## awf170 (Jan 26, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Anyway, can anyone speak to me about the durability in general of these touring/randonee/AT (whatever you want to call them) binders?  Riv, your comment gave me a bit of insight being please with 16 outings with a unit and no failures.  That worries me a tad.  Of course, I'm sure I don't ski anywhere near as hard as you do.



Well if they can handle extreme air like this then they must be pretty tough...
http://media.putfile.com/P101005953

I swear I was atleast 2 or 3 times higher than it looks in that vid :wink: I would say in the range of about 10-15 ft off the ground... :wink:  :lol:


----------



## Marc (Jan 26, 2006)

Aw yeah, 20 feet easy.  I saw that back flip you threw in too, very subtle.  I'm impressed.




Do you ski your AT gear all the time?  Do you have a regular alpine setup any more?  And what boots do you use?



Also, you should let your camera man know he has epilepsy, and um, might want to find a new one.


----------



## awf170 (Jan 26, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Aw yeah, 20 feet easy.  I saw that back flip you threw in too, very subtle.  I'm impressed.



Actually it was a double backflip, but whos counting.




> Do you ski your AT gear all the time?  Do you have a regular alpine setup any more?  And what boots do you use?


First time I ever used them... and I use alpine boots.  After using this setup though I really dont want to go back to my other skis....
Anyone wanna buy some 1260's or pocket rockets?


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 27, 2006)

> Riv, your comment gave me a bit of insight being please with 16 outings with a unit and no failures. That worries me a tad. Of course, I'm sure I don't ski anywhere near as hard as you do.


not sure why a unit being 100% functional after more than a year's worth of use worries you, :lol:  these is a saying in backcountry circles that gear will eventually fail on you at the worst time.  the amount of crap that AT binders go through is far and above that of a regular binder.  on the uphill, you are constantly adjusting the heel height adjuster and the binder is hinged at the toe which is a moving part.  while essentially all binders ARE moving, most binders don't hinge, lock down, and have heel riser adjustments.  so there are a lot of things to break aside from the fact that the binders aren't made quite as strong since they are also designed to be as light as possible.  

i have no idea about the silvretta line or the 404.  just check to be sure you can use alpine boots in them or if you need to purchase an AT boot.  the possible gear combos make getting into AT difficult in some cases since one choice in gear may greatly effect what else you need.



> Do you ski your AT gear all the time? Do you have a regular alpine setup any more? And what boots do you use?


i only use my AT gear for touring but i will bring my AT setup for a big powder day since they are big fattest skis or if i am expecting some uphill side country action that is more than a short hike.  i'd say last season i was 75%/25% on alpine/AT so my touring is still in the minority.  i suspect by next season it will be closer to 60/40 as i look away from the slopes more and more for better snow and more interesting terrain.  i think JimG uses his AT setup as his everyday skis, iirc?  i have garmont gride's for my boots, though i started with my regular alpine boots to get me going.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 27, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> i think JimG uses his AT setup as his everyday skis, iirc?



Yup, my AT gear is my regular setup, unless it's a really big bump skiing day (Springtime) in which case I change the soles on my Adrenalins from AT to DIN and use my alpine boards. Same skis, same boots, but with a pair of Marker bindings mounted flush on the boards, no plates or risers.

Marc, I can't speak for other AT bindings, but the Fritschi's are built like tanks.


----------



## Marc (Jan 27, 2006)

The 404's are compatible with alpine, AT, and mountaineering boots.

They also have lateral and forward release capability and adjustment.  I've read a lot of good stuff about them; they're an older model but were a successful design.  I found the 404/Tua combo for $100, so I think I'm going to do that.  The binder from what I've seen is worth that much alone.

I'll have to swallow the price of skins, but I've read you kind find them that are fairly easily to adjust lengthwise?  Is that true?

Riv got into it for better terrain.  I wonder just wanting to get away from the crowds is the wrong reason.


Oh, and Riv, I know what you mean about breaking sheit at the most inconvenient moment.  I've done some extended tours on the mountain bike but I've been riding for so long, I've gotten trail repairs down to an exact science.  Anything that can be repaired trailside, I can repair it, short of needing extra parts.

I need to get that familiar with AT stuff I guess.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 27, 2006)

> Riv got into it for better terrain. I wonder just wanting to get away from the crowds is the wrong reason.


that ain't the only reason.  though some of the best terrain in new england is located in bounds for what it is worth.  lack of crowds is another good one, depending upon where you go.  i also enjoy hiking so it was a good mix to be out in nature really working it during the winter time.  also the desire to ski before and after the lifts open/close was a bid desire too.  essentially, touring bindings gives a ski the ultimate freedom to ski anything anywhere at anytime as long as there is snow.  that, i think more than anything, is the reason i got into it.

regarding the skins, they will set you back about $100 give or take.  i recommend getting the best possible skins, don't skimp and don't try to find used.  you get the skins as wide as your tip, then cut them to fit the shape of your skis.


----------



## Marc (Jan 28, 2006)

Interesting... I've heard people advise only to get skins as wide as the narrowest part of the ski as well, and don't trim.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 28, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Interesting... I've heard people advise only to get skins as wide as the narrowest part of the ski as well, and don't trim.


from what i understand, that is a good option for flat land touring.  if you are going to spend most of your skinning time going up hill, especially in the realm of 20 degrees or more, you want full coverage on the bottom of your skis.  the more 'skin' you have gripping your skis to the snow, the better, imo.


----------



## Marc (Jan 29, 2006)

I bet it would be far easier to load an avalanche cannon with a grappeling hook and a rope and then put a winch on yourself.

And then you don't need skins at all.  See that?  You can never keep a good engineer down.


----------



## JimG. (Jan 30, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> Marc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Steve is correct...go for full coverage (less edges) when buying skins.

On another note, I ran into a skier with a pair of NAXO AT bindings this past weekend, and he was good enough to stop and let me examine them. I was impressed with the toes pieces but not much else. They seemed more complicated than the Fritschi's and frankly looked a little cheap in spots.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 30, 2006)

i just got my latest issue of couloir and apparently frischi has a new freeride coming out next season that is even beefier.  also dynastar partnered with naxo to 'make' a freeride binding for the legend series (looks like a different color version of their standard 02) and atomic partnered with silveretta, again looks the same as the pure just different color.  pretty interesting seeing the big ski companies trying to get in on the backcountry market by packaging skis and backcountry bindings!


----------



## JimG. (Jan 30, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> also dynastar partnered with naxo to 'make' a freeride binding for the legend series (looks like a different color version of their standard 02) and atomic partnered with silveretta, again looks the same as the pure just different color.  pretty interesting seeing the big ski companies trying to get in on the backcountry market by packaging skis and backcountry bindings!



Really? It's amazing that they got on that bandwagon so quickly.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 30, 2006)

they are really just recolored versions of the established partners' brand.  nothing new, just a different package.  not too surprising considering how many people (like me) who were buying legends/inspireds off ebay for less than $500 and mounting freerides to them.  just another way to capture the ski/binding 'package' market.  though this could be fool hardy since these bindings are not integrated into a 'system' so there is no obligation to purchase them together when there are better deals.


----------



## awf170 (Feb 1, 2006)

FYI on Freerides:  I went into to freeheel mode twice today and I only weigh 130 pounds...  luckily I'm usually so far into the backseat I didn't even notice :dunce:


----------



## salida (Feb 1, 2006)

What austin, that shouldn't happen you sure they were locked down?


----------



## awf170 (Feb 1, 2006)

salida said:
			
		

> What austin, that shouldn't happen you sure they were locked down?



Positive they were locked down, possibly they werent fully down or something, but I really doubt it.  If you do a search over at TGR you will find a lot of info on this happening, but I thought it was just a few isolated cases and it was because people were pushing them to hard... I guess not.


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 1, 2006)

salida said:
			
		

> What austin, that shouldn't happen you sure they were locked down?


yea, what salida said.  i think i have only gone freeheel mode while skiing once.  excluding the time i snapped my ski which made it insta-perma-freeheel mode, heh.  it takes a LOT of torque to pop those suckers.  were you cranking big GS turns or putting a really strong bend in the ski?


----------



## awf170 (Feb 1, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> were you cranking big GS turns or putting a really strong bend in the ski?



nope. I was skiing so pretty deep crud, but not that hard.  One thing I can think of is that the snow was pretty sticky and my skis werent waxed so I every once in a while I would go forward pretty hard, but I really didnt think that could do it.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 2, 2006)

salida said:
			
		

> What austin, that shouldn't happen you sure they were locked down?



Never happened to me...and I've skiied mine very hard.


----------



## awf170 (Feb 2, 2006)

I think the obvious answer to this is that, I am a way better skier then JimG or Riverc0il...


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 2, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> nope. I was skiing so pretty deep crud, but not that hard.  One thing I can think of is that the snow was pretty sticky and my skis werent waxed so I every once in a while I would go forward pretty hard, but I really didnt think that could do it.


not a chance.  you are either doing something weird or you have some bad bindings.  did you buy them new or used?  i would recommend having them checked out by a shop that specializes in touring bindings.  freerides should never go insta-tele unless you really torque them hard.


----------



## awf170 (Feb 2, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> awf170 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bought them new.  I'll probably ski on the once more and if it happens again I have it checked out by a shop.


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 2, 2006)

oh, duh.  forgot to mention the obvious fix.  make sure when you lock down the bar that there is no snow in the latch area.  always clean out those puppies of snow as much as possible before locking them down.  same with stepping into the bindings.  very precise piece of equipment and a little bit of snow stuck in the wrong place would make the mechanics not work correctly.


----------



## Marc (Feb 2, 2006)

Yeah, that's a good point Riv.  And I notice it makes much more of a difference on my more expensive Marker bindings than on the cheap Rossy bindings.

Tighter tolerances apparently.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 3, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> oh, duh.  forgot to mention the obvious fix.  make sure when you lock down the bar that there is no snow in the latch area.  always clean out those puppies of snow as much as possible before locking them down.  same with stepping into the bindings.  very precise piece of equipment and a little bit of snow stuck in the wrong place would make the mechanics not work correctly.



VERY important. After one climb, I left a little snow on the lockdown and it kept popping up when I tried to lock it down. Had to clean it thoroughly.


----------



## awf170 (Feb 10, 2006)

Heres what I got out of this over at TGR:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45835


----------

