# Vt. ski resort to ban smoking



## Smellytele (Nov 23, 2010)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20101123/ap_tr_ge/us_travel_brief_smokeless_skiing


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

wonder why it's just Pico and not Killington as well


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## drjeff (Nov 23, 2010)

Make it state wide ASAP!


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## jrmagic (Nov 23, 2010)

Maybe they are afraid of the possible backlash? I guess if its successful at Pico they may try to expand it to the rest of K though  I would think that they would probably ahve to consider a designated smoking area? I also think this would be tough to enforce as people woul jsut smoke on the lift or on the trails and in the trees.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 23, 2010)

What about safety meetings?


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## SkiDork (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm all for smokers rights but I just hate it when I'm standing in a lift line and have to breath cigarette smoke the entire time.  It was pervasive the past few weeks in the line for the Glades Trip at Killington.  Every freakin time I was near somebody smoking.  The really unfortunate part was that it was usually some idiot 18 year old kids who were the smokers.  Fer cryin out loud WTF are they starting that stupid habit for?????  Isn't the younger generation smarter than us old farts????


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

liftline smoking is absurd, I agree.

I smoke, but never have in a liftline.  My preference would be for designated areas outside of lodges that are low traffic areas.  I have no desire to disturb others with my bad habbit.


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## jrmagic (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't like the smell of cigarette smoke either but I really don't recall being bothered by it very often last winter....


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## mondeo (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> wonder why it's just Pico and not Killington as well


Pico is the Family Mountain. Also it's probably less risk to POWDR to try it there, if it works well they might filter it over to K.


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## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

"Duuuude, that means I can't smoke weed?  I hope they don't ban brownies next"


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## powhunter (Nov 23, 2010)

Whats next smoke alarms in the Ganjala???

For cripes sakes!!


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## 4aprice (Nov 23, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> What about safety meetings?



Beat me to it Root.  I know some great places at the top of Pico for those.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## PomfretPlunge (Nov 23, 2010)

Rode the Trip the other day with two guys who asked if I was Law Enforcement.  I said Nope and they got out these big ol' joints & lit right up.  Twas a mellow afternoon


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## Glenn (Nov 23, 2010)

I think it's kind of dumb. If they want to ban it in the liftline, I can totally see that. If you're stuck in line and someone fires anything up, you really can't go anywhere to avoid it. Banning it at the entire resort? I dunno. Granted, it's private property and the owners can do whatever they want. 

Honestly, if people are worried about health effects, they'd ban those busses that park and idle all day in the parking lot. I'm sure that's about 10x worse than a handful of people getting a "whiff" of cig smoke. 

I just get nervous when stuff starts getting banned. Just wait until the French Fry Police show up and start dictating what you (and your kids) can and can't eat at the mountain. Laugh...but if this trend contiues, it'll happen.


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> liftline smoking is absurd, I agree.
> 
> I smoke, but never have in a liftline.  My preference would be for designated areas outside of lodges that are low traffic areas.  I have no desire to disturb others with my bad habbit.



Smoke doesn't bug me so much outdoors - designated areas sure help....  It's great to not have them in bars - my drumset  is very happy about the law...  

I really have a hatred of cigarette butts being tossed about..  It makes me so mad - like TSA screening...


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## zinger3000 (Nov 23, 2010)

Resortwide is overkill.

How about just no smoking on liftlines, on the lifts themselves, and within 50 feet of the entrance of any building.


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## BLESS (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> liftline smoking is absurd, I agree.
> 
> I smoke, but never have in a liftline.  My preference would be for designated areas outside of lodges that are low traffic areas.  I have no desire to disturb others with my bad habbit.



my thoughts exactly.  Couldnt have said it any better myself.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> liftline smoking is absurd, I agree.
> 
> I smoke, but never have in a liftline.  My preference would be for designated areas outside of lodges that are low traffic areas.  I have no desire to disturb others with my bad habbit.



I never pegged you as a smoker.  Never really thought about it before either.



threecy said:


> "Duuuude, that means I can't smoke weed?  I hope they don't ban brownies next"



I prefer peanut butter firecrackers. 



powhunter said:


> Whats next smoke alarms in the Ganjala???
> 
> For cripes sakes!!



http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/35772754


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## RENO (Nov 23, 2010)

I hope it gets banned from the entire resort. Hate walking out on a deck to get fresh air and getting hit with cig smoke from all directions. If people wanna suck toxic fumes they can just go to their cars. I go to the mountains to breath fresh air. 
I had a few people try to get on the K1 gondola with me with cigs already fired up this weekend. At least he asked if I minded. I said yes and they went to another gondola. I thought you weren't allowed to smoke in the gondola anyway? Liftop just stood there looking at us and didn't say a word...:???:


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

RENO said:


> I hope it gets banned from the entire resort. Hate walking out on a deck to get fresh air and getting hit with cig smoke from all directions. If people wanna suck toxic fumes they can just go to their cars. I go to the mountains to breath fresh air.
> I had a few people try to get on the K1 gondola with me with cigs already fired up this weekend. At least he asked if I minded. I said yes and they went to another gondola. I thought you weren't allowed to smoke in the gondola anyway? Liftop just stood there looking at us and didn't say a word...:???:



What would be your beef if they have designated areas well marked and away from high traffic areas?
This is what they do at amusement parks and I think it's plenty fair to everyone.  

If they don't do something like that, a smoker will simply break the rules and sneak a smoke wherever they can.  Need proof of that? Go to the House of Blues in Boston.  They don't let smokers outside at all.  Once you're in, you're in for the night.  Bathrooms, middle of the dance floor etc, people are lighting up for a few puffs.  Now go across town to the Paradise where they let you outside to smoke.  No one smokes inside at all.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

Why ban it from the whole property, I can understand banning it from liftlines but there should be some designated areas where the smokers can go to feel like outcasts.


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## mister moose (Nov 23, 2010)

RENO said:


> I hope it gets banned from the entire resort. Hate walking out on a deck to get fresh air and getting hit with cig smoke from all directions. If people wanna suck toxic fumes they can just go to their cars. I go to the mountains to breath fresh air.
> I had a few people try to get on the K1 gondola with me with cigs already fired up this weekend. At least he asked if I minded. I said yes and they went to another gondola. I thought you weren't allowed to smoke in the gondola anyway? Liftop just stood there looking at us and didn't say a word...:???:



Well, it feels weird posting to the left of Reno, but I think resort wide is over kill.  It's an outdor sport.  Why penalize 21% of your customers to that extent?  Pico has no gondolas to stink up like at K.

Ban it in buildings, liftlines, lifts, and near entrances and exits.  Create an away from the doors, down wind in prevailing wind section of a deck as a smoking area.  

I'm sure Pico was worried about difficult regulation on the lift, and people stretching the rules, so they just went with an outright ban.  Perhaps the total ban might have been necessary to get the stamp of approval from the American Cancer Society.  

I'm not a smoker, and hate it as much as the next guy, but after the fries they might come after my waffle and my ice cream, and my beer and my bourbon, and then we have a problem.


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## Brewbeer (Nov 23, 2010)

They won't go after beer.  Beer has been proven to be good for you.  

http://www.forbes.com/2008/03/14/beer-drink-health-forbeslife-cx_avd_0317health.html
http://www.askmen.com/sports/foodcourt/45_eating_well.html

AND they make money selling beer.


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## tjf67 (Nov 23, 2010)

RENO said:


> I hope it gets banned from the entire resort. Hate walking out on a deck to get fresh air and getting hit with cig smoke from all directions. If people wanna suck toxic fumes they can just go to their cars. I go to the mountains to breath fresh air.
> I had a few people try to get on the K1 gondola with me with cigs already fired up this weekend. At least he asked if I minded. I said yes and they went to another gondola. I thought you weren't allowed to smoke in the gondola anyway? Liftop just stood there looking at us and didn't say a word...:???:




I make sure I blow smoke in the direction of people like you.  Sometimes the non smokers can be as rude as the smokers.  I dont ski there but can't imagine it would have any effect on my smoking habit if I did.


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## snoseek (Nov 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I make sure I blow smoke in the direction of people like you.  Sometimes the non smokers can be as rude as the smokers.  I dont ski there but can't imagine it would have any effect on my smoking habit if I did.



Uhhhh thats a little harsh no? Do you do that in real life?


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## gmcunni (Nov 23, 2010)

RENO said:


> If people wanna suck toxic fumes they can just go to their cars. I go to the mountains to breath fresh air.



when i smoked there were 3 cigarettes i loved..


first one in the morning
after a satisfying meal
on a cold day during the lift ride.  something about the fresh cool air really made smoking enjoyable (i'm totally serious)


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## RENO (Nov 23, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I make sure I blow smoke in the direction of people like you.  Sometimes the non smokers can be as rude as the smokers.  I dont ski there but can't imagine it would have any effect on my smoking habit if I did.



Then I don't have to worry about you. You can hack your lungs out somewhere else instead of on my boots! :lol:

I've never touched a cig in my life. I also don't buy the BS that people that smoke can't quit. My dad smoked 3 packs of cigs a day for 40 years. Had a cig in his mouth when he woke up and when he went to sleep. There was always a cloud around him for many years. He had a minor heart attach 18 years ago and just quit cold turkey. Doesn't miss it for a second. If he can quit, anybody can quit...


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## tjf67 (Nov 23, 2010)

snoseek said:


> Uhhhh thats a little harsh no? Do you do that in real life?



No of course not but when I am outside smoking and someone has a problem with it I don't pay any attention


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## tjf67 (Nov 23, 2010)

RENO said:


> Then I don't have to worry about you. You can hack your lungs out somewhere else instead of on my boots! :lol:
> 
> I've never touched a cig in my life. I also don't buy the BS that people that smoke can't quit. My dad smoked 3 packs of cigs a day for 40 years. Had a cig in his mouth when he woke up and when he went to sleep. There was always a cloud around him for many years. He had a minor heart attach 18 years ago and just quit cold turkey. Doesn't miss it for a second. If he can quit, anybody can quit...



Exercise keeps the hacking away.  I have no idea your excercising habits but mine include running 15 to 30 miles per week. Not certain who would be hacking 
Great story about your dad glad he quit.


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## riverc0il (Nov 23, 2010)

You can search back in the threads about stuff people hate in liftlines and on the lifts... smoking in the liftline and on the lift is one of the few things that happen while I am skiing that really upset me. I can't simply move away from the smoke and--though many smokers and some less sensitive non-smokers don't understand, or care to understand--it really bothers my respiratory system. 

That said, I think this is a little extreme and rather unfriendly to smokers. Interesting move to promote Pico as very family friendly... as long as you are not a family that has a smoker in it. Don't smoke right outside a door, don't smoke in a lift line, don't smoke on the lift... that seems like a no brainer to me. But don't smoke any where on resort property?

Eh, businesses can do what they want with their property and their business. But that is a really unfriendly policy. Smokers are not going to go 8 hours straight without a butt. Thus, smokers just won't ski at Pico. Or, they will and will smoke any ways.


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## millerm277 (Nov 23, 2010)

I see this as being unenforceable, and most likely leading to more smoking on the lifts, probably to the annoyance of the other people on said lift.


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## wintersyndrome (Nov 23, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> What about safety meetings?


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## threecy (Nov 24, 2010)

Years ago, there were some who thought non-smoking motels and restaurants wouldn't benefit from that type of designation.

If they can get a bunch of free publicity from this, I suspect Pico can only benefit.  I'd also venture a guess that there is a smaller portion of heavy smokers who smoke vs. the normal population.  Not only that, but I'd also venture a guess that Pico could see more people wanting to ski smoke-free vs. people who want to smoke while skiing.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> I see this as being unenforceable, and most likely leading to more smoking on the lifts, probably to the annoyance of the other people on said lift.



Just like they can't stop (or rarely do) people from drinking on lifts or having safety meetings.


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## Cannonball (Nov 24, 2010)

It is amazing that this even come up as an issue at all.  Why the hell would any skier be a smoker in the first place?!?!  

In thousands of ski days I don't think I've actually ever seen someone smoking in a lift line.  But then again I don't ski Pico and Killington.  Maybe its a resort-specific problem and that's why they are considering the ban?


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## dmc (Nov 24, 2010)

Cannonball said:


> In thousands of ski days I don't think I've actually ever seen someone smoking in a lift line.  But then again I don't ski Pico and Killington.  Maybe its a resort-specific problem and that's why they are considering the ban?



Go ski europe - you'll see a lifetime of smokers in one day..


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2010)

dmc said:


> Go ski europe - you'll see a lifetime of smokers in one day..



You'll also see dogs in restaurants and people who use cologne instead of taking showers.


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## skiadikt (Nov 24, 2010)

resort wide is a bit excessive. it's already in the buildings. extend it to the liftlines, decks, the entrances to the buildings. anywhere else it's unenforceable. but where are folks going to do it. pull over trailside? probably lead to more smoking on lifts and that drives me crazy when the smoke wafts back from the chair in front of me.

agree with dork, on those long lines on the glades triple the last few weeks. a number of times either got stuck behind or next to someone smoking. and sometimes it would be 2 or 3 of them together. and just an observation, it was mostly snowboarders. just an observation ...


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## SkiDork (Nov 24, 2010)

Cannonball said:


> It is amazing that this even come up as an issue at all.  Why the hell would any skier be a smoker in the first place?!?!
> 
> In thousands of ski days I don't think I've actually ever seen someone smoking in a lift line.  But then again I don't ski Pico and Killington.  Maybe its a resort-specific problem and that's why they are considering the ban?



Where do you ski?


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## Cannonball (Nov 24, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> Where do you ski?



75% Cannon.  Then about 20% spread over Wildcat, Jay, Sugarbush.  Then randomly anywhere else.  Only been to Pico and Killington once each.


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## SkiDork (Nov 24, 2010)

Cannonball said:


> 75% Cannon.  Then about 20% spread over Wildcat, Jay, Sugarbush.  Then randomly anywhere else.  Only been to Pico and Killington once each.




Interesting.

I would venture to say that I myself rarely encounter smokers in line at Killington.  I think the reason it was so prevalent the past few weekends was:

1) Only resort open

2) Everyone squeezed onto 1 lift line, which was averaging a 15 minute wait.

Regular season with all lifts open I hardly ever run into it.


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## bvibert (Nov 24, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> You can search back in the threads about stuff people hate in liftlines and on the lifts... smoking in the liftline and on the lift is one of the few things that happen while I am skiing that really upset me. I can't simply move away from the smoke and--though many smokers and some less sensitive non-smokers don't understand, or care to understand--it really bothers my respiratory system.
> 
> That said, I think this is a little extreme and rather unfriendly to smokers. Interesting move to promote Pico as very family friendly... as long as you are not a family that has a smoker in it. Don't smoke right outside a door, don't smoke in a lift line, don't smoke on the lift... that seems like a no brainer to me. But don't smoke any where on resort property?
> 
> Eh, businesses can do what they want with their property and their business. But that is a really unfriendly policy. Smokers are not going to go 8 hours straight without a butt. Thus, smokers just won't ski at Pico. Or, they will and will smoke any ways.



I agree with everything said above.


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## bvibert (Nov 24, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> I see this as being unenforceable, and most likely leading to more smoking on the lifts, probably to the annoyance of the other people on said lift.



I also agree with this.


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## speden (Nov 24, 2010)

I would hope they'd still set up a designated area for the smokers somewhere out of sight of kids, and hopefully downwind of everyone else.  Some smokers can get by with nicotine gum, but for others on the nicotine roller coaster, they will just light up where the rule is not easily enforced.

I think people are becoming more sensitive to smoking since it got pushed outside of buildings.  Now even a hint of the stuff has become more noticeable.  For myself I now notice third hand smoke from the few people in my building that still go outside to smoke.  The stuff clings to their clothes and stinks up their office, the men's john, and even leaves a trail when they walk down a hallway.  It's like they are spreading a slow acting pesticide around the office on a daily basis.  And I was reading an article that 90 percent of kids who have a parent that smokes have readily detectable tobacco compounds in their urine.  The stuff is really just bad news.  I'm fine with people using it recreationally if they choose too, but they should do it in a way that doesn't expose non-users, and especially children.


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## Kerovick (Nov 24, 2010)

I think resort wide is a bit much also.

It should definitly be banned in liftlines, on the lift doesn't bother me to much.  I don't mind an occasional wiff of smoke.

Working as a lifty, 90% of the dumdasses that actually smoke in the lift line are 15year old boys that think they are cool.  Sadly, I was that little twerp back in the day :-(  But of course that was back in the 80's and people didn't complain as much back then.


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## jaywbigred (Nov 24, 2010)

RENO said:


> I've never touched a cig in my life. I also don't buy the BS that people that smoke can't quit. My dad smoked 3 packs of cigs a day for 40 years. Had a cig in his mouth when he woke up and when he went to sleep. There was always a cloud around him for many years. He had a minor heart attach 18 years ago and just quit cold turkey. Doesn't miss it for a second. If he can quit, anybody can quit...



Good for your Dad!! However, I would venture to guess that the scientific studies of brain chemistry, smoking, and addiction would reveal that your Dad is in the extreme minority. Chemical addiction is not the same for everyone. When scientific studies reveal a clear trend (i.e. quitting is difficult and usually takes many attempts before success), offering up your silly, personal, contradictory anecdote in an attempt to refute that clear trend is a banal form of argument, and pretty much meaningless. It also kinda makes you sound like an a$$.

I am a nonsmoker, and I don't want to be in the same car, room, or even liftline if someone else is smoking. That said, the occasional whiff of smoke you get when you pass by a designated smoking area do not bother me in the least. I hate vigilante anti-smokers that can't deal with perfectly reasonable compromises between smokers and nonsmokers, compromises that do not impact their health or well being in any negative way. I guess in general I respect people that can be reasonable, and am frustrated by people that can't.



Smellytele said:


> You'll also see dogs in restaurants and people who use cologne instead of taking showers.


 LOL. Hilarious.



Kerovick said:


> I think resort wide is a bit much also.
> 
> It should definitly be banned in liftlines, on the lift doesn't bother me to much.  I don't mind an occasional wiff of smoke.


 Exactly.


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## Huck_It_Baby (Nov 24, 2010)

Cannonball said:


> In thousands of ski days I don't think I've actually ever seen someone smoking in a lift line.  But then again I don't ski Pico and Killington.  Maybe its a resort-specific problem and that's why they are considering the ban?



I noticed No Smoking signs in the lift lines at Whistler 2 years ago. I think it becomes an issue at larger resorts where you have many people who smoke and also many people who don't but feel the need to complain. So the resort becomes obligated to attempt a balanced action.

Lift line ban is reasonable....banning an entire resort would not only be impossible to enforce but would drive away smokers who pay for lift tickets. That could equate to a significant loss of revenue.


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## tjf67 (Nov 24, 2010)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> I noticed No Smoking signs in the lift lines at Whistler 2 years ago. I think it becomes an issue at larger resorts where you have many people who smoke and also many people who don't but feel the need to complain. So the resort becomes obligated to attempt a balanced action.
> 
> Lift line ban is reasonable....banning an entire resort would not only be impossible to enforce but would drive away smokers who pay for lift tickets. That could equate to a significant loss of revenue.



As I smoker I could care a less if they ban smoking at a hill.  I would ski there.  I will also smoke.  I dont smoke in liftlines(rude) on lifts with strangers or in doorways.  When I am on the deck out by the fire I smoke.   When people complain I smoke and continue talking with whomever I am speaking with.   You as a non-smoker have the right to walk away and I don't fault you for it.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> As I smoker I could care a less if they ban smoking at a hill.  I would ski there.  I will also smoke.  I dont smoke in liftlines(rude) on lifts with strangers or in doorways.  When I am on the deck out by the fire I smoke.   When people complain I smoke and continue talking with whomever I am speaking with.   You as a non-smoker have the right to walk away and I don't fault you for it.



You sir are the reason why they have these bans.


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## tjf67 (Nov 24, 2010)

Smellytele said:


> You sir are the reason why they have these bans.



You would not even know I smoked if I were around you.  You sir dont know what you are talking about.


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## gmcunni (Nov 24, 2010)

i wonder if Pico is offering refunds to customers who smoke and purchased a season pass prior to the announcement of the ban?


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## 2knees (Nov 24, 2010)

smoking in the liftline is downright rude.  people who get totally bent out of shape cause i'm having a cigarette out of the way of the masses and they happen to walk by is downright rude.  I think there are a$$holes on both sides of the fence.


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## 2knees (Nov 24, 2010)

one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.

now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 24, 2010)

indeed.  lets ban everything.

I say screw the haters and dip my butts in transfat


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## Glenn (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.
> 
> now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.



There is a large grain of truth in the above post. 

Next time you're at the ski hill, check out what people are eating.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.
> 
> now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.



The worst are fat people who smoke.


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## SkiDork (Nov 24, 2010)

Smellytele said:


> The worst are fat people who smoke.



and vote...


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## bvibert (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.
> 
> now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.



Mmmmmm... bacon cheeseburgers....  Regular Pepsi though please, no diet crap.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 24, 2010)

Huck_It_Baby said:


> Lift line ban is reasonable....banning an entire resort would not only be impossible to enforce but would drive away smokers who pay for lift tickets. That could equate to a significant loss of revenue.



I agree that actively banning is next to impossible but my bet is that the economic cost of driving away smokers is neglible.  Statistics say that approximately 21% of US adults smoke.  My guess is that the percentage of skiers who smoke (tobacco) is way less than 20%.  The dollars lost in smokers not buying lift tickets is likely to be exceeded by people purchasing tickets to ski at a smoke free resort.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 24, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> I agree that actively banning is next to impossible but my bet is that the economic cost of driving away smokers is neglible.  Statistics say that approximately 21% of US adults smoke.  My guess is that the percentage of skiers who smoke (tobacco) is way less than 20%.  The dollars lost in smokers not buying lift tickets is likely to be exceeded by people purchasing tickets to ski at a smoke free resort.



I'd say the financial impact is going to be meaningless in either direction.


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## Sparky (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.
> 
> now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.




They may be fat, but that doesn't effect your health like second hand smoke can. Bottom line people have a right to not to not have their health jeopardized by someone elses addiction.


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## RENO (Nov 24, 2010)

jaywbigred said:


> Good for your Dad!! However, I would venture to guess that the scientific studies of brain chemistry, smoking, and addiction would reveal that your Dad is in the extreme minority. Chemical addiction is not the same for everyone. When scientific studies reveal a clear trend (i.e. quitting is difficult and usually takes many attempts before success), offering up your silly, personal, contradictory anecdote in an attempt to refute that clear trend is a banal form of argument, and pretty much meaningless. It also kinda makes you sound like an a$$.


In my best 3 Stooges Curly voice: Me thinks I've been banally insulted! :roll: :lol:

Anybody remember those candy powder cigs they used to sell to kids many years ago? I remember buying those and blowing the powder out and pretending to smoke. Then you eat the candy. People were a lot more stupid back then when it came to smoking! :lol:


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## 2knees (Nov 24, 2010)

Sparky said:


> They may be fat, but that doesn't effect your health like second hand smoke can. Bottom line people have a right to not to not have their health jeopardized by someone elses addiction.



and i have the right not to have my financial security jeopardized by someone elses addiction.

look, smoking around people who dont smoke is something I personally dont do.  I dont smoke in liftlines, on decks being used by other people and i rarely smoke on a lift unless i'm alone or with another smoker.  and i go as far as to make sure there is nobody on the chair behind me. So i try not to affect others with my habit as absolutely best i can. However, it doesnt matter if that obese person is living in Alaska, it still impacts my health care costs.


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## tjf67 (Nov 24, 2010)

Sparky said:


> They may be fat, but that doesn't effect your health like second hand smoke can. Bottom line people have a right to not to not have their health jeopardized by someone elses addiction.



Yup and thats why we are outside.  I think it is a fair.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> and i have the right not to have my financial security jeopardized by someone elses addiction.
> 
> look, smoking around people who dont smoke is something I personally dont do.  I dont smoke in liftlines, on decks being used by other people and i rarely smoke on a lift unless i'm alone or with another smoker.  and i go as far as to make sure there is nobody on the chair behind me. So i try not to affect others with my habit as absolutely best i can. However, it doesnt matter if that obese person is living in Alaska, it still impacts my health care costs.



Your smoking can impact my health care cost as well. Obese people suck as do smokers doesn't matter if they live in Alaska or the northeast.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> You would not even know I smoked if I were around you.  You sir dont know what you are talking about.



Well you are the one who said "When I am on the deck out by the fire I smoke. When people complain I smoke and continue talking with whomever I am speaking with. You as a non-smoker have the right to walk away and I don't fault you for it."


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## tjf67 (Nov 24, 2010)

Smellytele said:


> Your smoking can impact my health care cost as well. Obese people suck as do smokers doesn't matter if they live in Alaska or the northeast.



And so do people who stink and smoke weed.


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## bvibert (Nov 24, 2010)

People who ski and engage in other risky behavior impact health care costs too....


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## tjf67 (Nov 24, 2010)

Smellytele said:


> Well you are the one who said "When I am on the deck out by the fire I smoke. When people complain I smoke and continue talking with whomever I am speaking with. You as a non-smoker have the right to walk away and I don't fault you for it."



Thats right.  We start the fire and keep it going so we can smoke where it is somewhat warm.  Non smokers come out and most could give a crap if we are smoking. The ones who do we smile and just keep doing what we are doing.   

Most smokers are good about it.  Most non smokers are good about it.  Its not that big a deal other than on the internet from my observations.


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## speden (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> However, it doesnt matter if that obese person is living in Alaska, it still impacts my health care costs.



Some of the obesity we're seeing in recent times may not be due to over eating/lack of willpower.  The research is starting to suggest that processed food which contains somewhat unnatural sweeteners, like high fructose corn syrup, is a strong contributor to obesity.  The human body just isn't designed to properly digest large quantities of fructose.  It's somewhat like eating candy for every meal without people even knowing it.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of these sweeteners are restricted or banned in the next five or ten years, just like we're seeing with smoking.

Hard to say which drives up health care costs more, obesity or smoking.  If people can quit smoking by about age 40, I don't think the health care costs are that bad, but if they stick with it after that, things can start to go south pretty fast.


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## snafu (Nov 24, 2010)

Man all this tension lately...I think we all need to get out and ski - quick!

Seriously though, I think it will be selectively enforced - as in anyone caught smoking in lines/lift/crowded areas will get punished - a lone smoker off to the side shouldn't have to worry - and why should they? Plus it makes you feel like you are sticking it to the man when you get away with it:beer:  

They should have at least one indoor place where smokers could go, preferably a bar where smoking is allowed. I mean it is winter and all, have some mercy on those poor addicted souls.


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## Glenn (Nov 24, 2010)

Sparky said:


> They may be fat, but that doesn't effect your health like second hand smoke can. Bottom line people have a right to not to not have their health jeopardized by someone elses addiction.



Indoors I beleive the 2nd hand smoke argument. Outside, not so much. It's like saying because the kid on the chair in front of you fired up a joint, you had to ski stoned the rest of the day and failed a drug test Monday at work. Just because you smell it, doesn't mean you're receiving the full effect. IMHO.


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## gmcunni (Nov 24, 2010)

Glenn said:


> It's like saying because the kid on the chair in front of you fired up a joint, you had to ski stoned the rest of the day . .



only if you are lucky!  ;-)


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## darent (Nov 24, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> As I smoker I could care a less if they ban smoking at a hill.  I would ski there.  I will also smoke.  I dont smoke in liftlines(rude) on lifts with strangers or in doorways.  When I am on the deck out by the fire I smoke.   When people complain I smoke and continue talking with whomever I am speaking with.   You as a non-smoker have the right to walk away and I don't fault you for it.



not a smoker but you are correct, they can walk away. people forget that smoking is a legal activity. It sure is looked at as illegal , a little consideration goes a long way for both smoker and nonsmoker. with all they know about the health issues you would think  smokes would be illegal, I guess to much money goes into state and fed coffers.


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## snowbaby (Nov 24, 2010)

smoking is a terrible habit..I know because I smoke. we smokers are social outcasts. I would never smoke while standing on line with other non smokers though. I have been trying to quit for years but its very hard. They now have electric cigarettes (http://greensmoke.com/22216.html) that do not smell at all. Maybe those can be used by smokers when they are out in public with other non smokers. I would never smoke on the lift either. I try to keep my bad habits to myself. I just wish others would keep THEIR bad habits to themselves when they are out there too.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 24, 2010)

snowbaby said:


> smoking is a terrible habit..I know because I smoke. we smokers are social outcasts. I would never smoke while standing on line with other non smokers though. I have been trying to quit for years but its very hard. They now have electric cigarettes (http://greensmoke.com/22216.html) that do not smell at all. Maybe those can be used by smokers when they are out in public with other non smokers. I would never smoke on the lift either. I try to keep my bad habits to myself. I just wish others would keep THEIR bad habits to themselves when they are out there too.


Before I quit, I thought it was nuts that when I needed a smoke, I'd  have to go outside when it was raining out, or better yet, drive with my window partially open in the snow. It will be 10 years this April that I last had a cigarette. I don't miss is at all. 

We got mil one of those e-cigs for xmas. That's a big step for her to take towards quitting. Its healthier anyway. 

GSS has one also. He likes it.


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## Glenn (Nov 24, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> only if you are lucky!  ;-)



:lol:


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## RootDKJ (Nov 24, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Before I quit, I thought it was nuts that when I needed a smoke, I'd  have to go outside when it was raining out, or better yet, drive with my window partially open in the snow. It will be 10 years this April that I last had a cigarette. I don't miss is at all.
> 
> We got mil one of those e-cigs for xmas. That's a big step for her to take towards quitting. Its healthier anyway.
> 
> GSS has one also. He likes it.


Oh kinda hard to figure that one out on a Blackberry


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## mlctvt (Nov 24, 2010)

2knees said:


> one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.
> 
> now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.



Exactly, I ski as a single and I can't stand getting stuffed onto the Mt Snow quad with 3 fat people. It happens alot and it doesn't help that this quad chair was designed and built when Americans were 20-25% smaller. 
This pisses me off much more than occasional cigarette smoke. 

There should be a fat tax. ;-)


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## BLESS (Nov 25, 2010)

all smoke is bad.  If the people who complain about you smoking when your next to the fire...tell them to get away from it....Im quite certain theres smoke coming from those burning logs as well.


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## Black Phantom (Nov 25, 2010)

2knees said:


> one other thing always drives me bananas when smoking is discussed as this great social evil.  It is a terrible habit, but as a country we are the most obese in the world.  The strain all these fat people put on our health care system and in turn our wallets, is far more serious then smokers.  2 out of every 3 americans is overweight or obese.  the cost of this bullsh*t is $117 BILLION annually as of the year 2000. The next time some fatass gives me lip for smoking in the corner of the parking lot, i'm going to ask him for a $20 bill to cover my costs for his eating habits.
> 
> now go get a diet coke with your 15 bacon cheeseburgers.



I prefer regular Coke with my rum. Excellent analysis BTW.

Looking forward to making turns with you this season.


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## jfrenchu (Nov 25, 2010)

when a smoker finishes a cigarrette no matter where they are they throw it on the ground.That's called littering.I don't want butts on the beach or the slopes.


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## spring_mountain_high (Nov 25, 2010)

jfrenchu said:


> when a smoker finishes a cigarrette no matter where they are they throw it on the ground.That's called littering.I don't want butts on the beach or the slopes.



plus infinity

i go nuts when i see some slob chuck their cigarette butt out of their car window...what's that, you don't want the disgusting ashtray smell in your car?...WELL WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE REST OF US WANT IT ON THE GROUND??...THE WORLD IS NOT YOUR ASHTRAY...F%$ING SLOB TRASH

this rant was brought to you by the good people at altria


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 25, 2010)

darent said:


> with all they know about the health issues you would think  smokes would be illegal, I guess to much money goes into state and fed coffers.



Well prohibition is never the answer it didn't work with alcohol and it doesn't work with drugs.


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## mister moose (Nov 25, 2010)

mlctvt said:


> There should be a fat tax. ;-)



Yup, here you come after my waffles and my ice cream.  2knees knows how fat I'm not, but I'm convinced this is not a good direction to go in.  I don't want to be mandated to wear a helmet in the shower either.  (Site of most slip and falls, the bathroom)


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## BLESS (Nov 25, 2010)

jfrenchu said:


> when a smoker finishes a cigarrette no matter where they are they throw it on the ground.That's called littering.I don't want butts on the beach or the slopes.



I always either, put it in an emoty soda can, an ashtray, or put it out & then throw it in the trash.


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## snowbaby (Nov 25, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Before I quit, I thought it was nuts that when I needed a smoke, I'd  have to go outside when it was raining out, or better yet, drive with my window partially open in the snow. It will be 10 years this April that I last had a cigarette. I don't miss is at all.
> 
> We got mil one of those e-cigs for xmas. That's a big step for her to take towards quitting. Its healthier anyway.
> 
> GSS has one also. He likes it.



Good luck to her..  it's definately better than smoking cigarettes. And if she wants to smoke on the lift or while waiting online she can. Because no one will be harmed by second hand smoke. They wont even smell smoke. I love it. I don't know which one she uses but i use the greensmoke ones. http://greensmoke.com/22216.html . so you can eventually lower the amount of nicotine too.


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## riverc0il (Nov 25, 2010)

snowbaby said:


> Good luck to her..  it's definately better than smoking cigarettes. And if she wants to smoke on the lift or while waiting online she can. Because no one will be harmed by second hand smoke. They wont even smell smoke. I love it. I don't know which one she uses but i use the greensmoke ones. http://greensmoke.com/22216.html . so you can eventually lower the amount of nicotine too.


Only two posts from this user and both with links to a web site. Actual skier interested in this topic or marketing person for a company looking for free advertisements? You be the judge.


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## skiadikt (Nov 25, 2010)

spring_mountain_high said:


> plus infinity
> 
> i go nuts when i see some slob chuck their cigarette butt out of their car window...what's that, you don't want the disgusting ashtray smell in your car?...WELL WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE REST OF US WANT IT ON THE GROUND??...THE WORLD IS NOT YOUR ASHTRAY...F%$ING SLOB TRASH
> 
> this rant was brought to you by the good people at altria



yup the world as their ashtray thing makes me crazy as well. problem is that attitude then spills in other things like wrappers, bottles, etc ...


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## bigbog (Nov 25, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Well prohibition is never the answer it didn't work with alcohol and it doesn't work with drugs.


Just as in prohibition = Corrupt Federal government hard at work with our tax $$$....makes me sick....just as in more than a few areas of federal policy.
Agreed!....just slapping the wrists of guilty individuals for littering really irks me......


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## MadPadraic (Dec 2, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> I agree that actively banning is next to impossible but my bet is that the economic cost of driving away smokers is neglible.  Statistics say that approximately 21% of US adults smoke.  My guess is that the percentage of skiers who smoke (tobacco) is way less than 20%.  The dollars lost in smokers not buying lift tickets is likely to be exceeded by people purchasing tickets to ski at a smoke free resort.



The US is not New England. The most recent number for Mass is 15%, and the numbers are similarly low for CT and NJ. It is probably safe to guess that they are similar for NY if you exclude upstate. 

Additionally, skiing has a high positive correlation with income while smoking has a weak negative correlation with income.


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2010)

Well, since this thread is at the top again...

I noticed Mount Snow put "no smoking" signs on the lift line lane posts. They still allow smoking in the areas away from the lodge doors and provide recepticles for the cig butts. I think it works nicely. IMHO YMMW.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 2, 2010)

jfrenchu said:


> when a smoker finishes a cigarrette no matter where they are they throw it on the ground.That's called littering.I don't want butts on the beach or the slopes.



I pretty much have quite smoking, I have the occasional smoke when I have a drink or around somebody who has an extra (usually when I am out having a drink as well) and I for the most part (Im sure I have at some point) don't throw my butts out the window of the car, on the mountian and most definately not on a beach.  In the car I always had an empty bottle with a little bit of water in it, at the mountain I put it out on my put or on the ground then put it in my pocket and then put it in the trash can or hold on to it till I get home.  Botom line a lot of smokers are respectful of others.  I also would never ever even consider smoking a cig in a liftline or in a gondola, perhaps the most rude thing one can do.

Being a dink with this observation, do you realize how much pollution takes place at a ski resort, by the ski resort?  Lubricants dripping off lift cables (perhaps they are envio friendly now), two stroke snow sleds (I love the smell of two stroke engines), the cars in the parking lot, the busses running non stop, the trash in general, bras in trees, etc.


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## Nick (Feb 25, 2013)

Did this ban go through? Found out about this earlier, wondering if any other resorts have such bans in place. I'd imagine it's next to impossible to enforce anyway.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 25, 2013)

I believe there are signs at Killington that says no smoking in line.  For the most part people observe it.  There is the "I'm too cool to follow rules crowd" who you see smoking.  I've never seen anyone from the resort tell them to stop.


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 25, 2013)

Sugarloaf has a resort ban on smoking.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 25, 2013)

Good luck with another dump idea. People should be able what they want to themselves.


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## JDMRoma (Feb 25, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Good luck with another dump idea. People should be able what they want to themselves.


Yep have at it, as long as I dont have to smell their shit Im fine with it.
No smoking at a ski Resort , in the lift lines or on the chairs is a good start.


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## Bene288 (Feb 26, 2013)

Pico is a 'smoke free' resort now. They have big signs and flags all over the place. Killington has designated areas. My friend actually got asked to move on Saturday while we were debating going to Pico, so they are enforcing it. Most other places are 50' from any entrance.


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## Cannonball (Feb 26, 2013)

It shouldn't be banned. It should be self-evident that anyone interested in the sport of skiing has no interest in smoking. Duh.


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## Conrad (Feb 27, 2013)

For some reason when I went to Loon for the first time earlier this season, there were a number of times where I was going up a chairlift and someone was smoking ahead of me. Also, the majority of the gondola cabins smelled bad like someone had smoked in them. One time a person I went up with asked if I would mind him lighting up and I said yes I do mind and fortunately he listened. But I have never experienced this much smoking at Sunday River and Sugarloaf fortunately. I was just surprised to notice such a difference.


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## AdironRider (Feb 27, 2013)

Conrad said:


> For some reason when I went to Loon for the first time earlier this season, there were a number of times where I was going up a chairlift and someone was smoking ahead of me. Also, the majority of the gondola cabins smelled bad like someone had smoked in them. One time a person I went up with asked if I would mind him lighting up and I said yes I do mind and fortunately he listened. But I have never experienced this much smoking at Sunday River and Sugarloaf fortunately. I was just surprised to notice such a difference.



Fortunately he listened? Were you going to assault him otherwise? Dude asked, you said no, so he respected that. Uhh, isnt that what a normal person does? You must be a real charmer when something actually bad happens. 

I quit smoking last summer, but as a former smoker, it always seemed pretty dickish to make a big deal because someone was smoking on the chair in front of you. You're over 50 feet away at a minimum. You realize youre doing more harm to your lungs driving in traffic right? Something you do daily. Outside that far away, meh not an issue outside of someone hurt your feelings. Adults get over that. 

I get that its smells bad, but if thats your reasoning get over it, noone cares that your precious nose is "hurt" 

Also, they tried this here in Jackson and it got overturned. I think the reasoning was only certain govt agencies can actually enforce, especially on leaseholds. This was a ban instituted by the town, and not the resort itself though, which is most likely different. 

All that said, it always amazes me how much people smoke in liftlines, specifically at Killington. Even as a smoker I never did that outside of rock shows, where lets be real, its expected. Theres a difference between being respectful, and only caring abouts ones self.


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## bigbog (Feb 27, 2013)

Whenever smokers exhale in an enclosed structure the 2nd-hand-smoke & its smell do linger.....not healthy for others..  The problem for others as well...is that every single exhalation by a smoker is disgustingly filled with all the cigarette's ingredients.
I didn't really think about it till taking in my mom into _my, now expanded,_ house..:-o....


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2013)

A gondola is about 22 to 25 square feet,_ enclosed_.

Worse, much of that interior volume is taken up by human bodies, clothing, equipment, etc...., making it even smaller than that.

Smoking in a gondy is probably the most disrespectful to strangers place I could think of, with the exception of a closet.*



*Not including walk-in closets, most of which are larger than gondola interiors


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## dmc (Feb 27, 2013)

jfrenchu said:


> when a smoker finishes a cigarrette no matter where they are they throw it on the ground.That's called littering.I don't want butts on the beach or the slopes.



I hate this so much....  Where we live those butts go right into the rivers and ocean...

Fukcing pigs...  They seem to think the interior of their cars are more important than the earth...
Get a freaking Snapple bottle like I make my friends do...


Don't EVEN getme started with people that toss butts off chairs...


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## Scruffy (Feb 27, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Fortunately he listened? Were you going to assault him otherwise? Dude asked, you said no, so he respected that. Uhh, isnt that what a normal person does? You must be a real charmer when something actually bad happens.
> 
> I quit smoking last summer, but as a former smoker, it always seemed pretty dickish to make a big deal because someone was smoking on the chair in front of you. You're over 50 feet away at a minimum. You realize youre doing more harm to your lungs driving in traffic right? Something you do daily. Outside that far away, meh not an issue outside of someone hurt your feelings. Adults get over that.
> 
> ...



You have a habit of reading too much into a post; where did he say he would beat the shit out of him? He said "fortunately he listened", that's all. One can easily assume he meant that "fortunately he listened so I didn't have to breath his 2nd hand smoke"

Glad you wised up and quit smoking though dude; I don't understand why people still smoke cigs with all that is known about the toxic crap you're breathing in and what negative impact it has on your health. Especially skiers!!
Anyone who loves the outdoors should be health conscious.


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## dmc (Feb 27, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> Glad you wised up and quit smoking though dude; I don't understand why people still smoke cigs with all that is known about the toxic crap you're breathing in and what negative impact it has on your health. Especially skiers!!
> Anyone who loves the outdoors should be health conscious.



Tobacco is awesome!! Tastes great... Gives you a little high...

I like a rolled cig every once and a while... Also cigars...  

Some would argue that skiing itself has a negative impact on your health...


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## Scruffy (Feb 27, 2013)

dmc said:


> Some would argue that skiing itself has a negative impact on your health...



Surely, you jest.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2013)

dmc said:


> Some would argue that skiing itself has a negative impact on your health...



Health?   The wallet I could understand, but not health.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 27, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Health?   The wallet I could understand, but not health.



Tell that to my blown ACL.

Smoke em if you got em.


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## AdironRider (Feb 28, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> Tell that to my blown ACL.
> 
> Smoke em if you got em.



And my Achilles, theres truth to the statement that skiing isnt always good for your health. 

In the seven years Ive been in Jackson I know personally over 50 people who blew out an ACL or what have you. I dont care who you are, there are lasting effects from major injuries (even AP is going to feel that knee later in life). 

Unfortunately, for almost any serious skier, its only a matter of time before you get one.


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## dmc (Feb 28, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> Surely, you jest.



No I do not...

I know 6 people that are out this season due to injury...


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## Scruffy (Feb 28, 2013)

I'd separate injury from healthful exercise. You can get injured on the way to or at the gym, running, tennis, biking, even bowling; all recognized as good forms of "get off you ass and do something" exercise.

Hope you heal soon Steamboat and are back on the slopes.


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## dmc (Feb 28, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> I'd separate injury from healthful exercise. You can get injured on the way to or at the gym, running, tennis, biking, even bowling; all recognized as good forms of "get off you ass and do something" exercise.



I don't

It's an impact exercise...  Moguls - Jumps - crud - speed - ruts...

You keep doing it long enough and you'll suffer...  just like distance running..  or football...


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## Scruffy (Feb 28, 2013)

dmc said:


> I don't
> 
> It's an impact exercise...  Moguls - Jumps - crud - speed - ruts...
> 
> You keep doing it long enough and you'll suffer...  just like distance running..  or football...



Gee,  I better tell all those grey hairs I see on the slopes to quit immediately, they're living on borrowed time. 

http://www.mrablog.com/explaining-ski-industry-demographics/



> _The average age of participants has risen steadily from 33.2 in 1997/1998 to 36.5 in 2006/07. Specifically, since 1997/98, the proportion of visitors aged 45 to 54 has increased from 14.0 % to 19.9 %; the proportion of visitors aged 55 to 64 has almost doubled from 4.6 % to 9.2 %; and the proportion of visitors aged 65 and older has also almost doubled, from 2.4% to 3.8%. Currently, skiers of the Baby Boom generation, and their parents, make up 33% of all skiers. Conversely, the proportion of visitors aged 35 to 44 has declined by 3%, visitors aged between 25 to 34 have declined by 5.6%, and visitors aged 15 to 24 have declined 3%. (Source: National Ski Areas Association: 2007/08 National Demographic Study; 2008)_



Seriously though, an ACL is relatively quick injury to overcome. A lot quicker than cancer, emphysema, atherosclerosis,
or heart disease; from smoking, being a couch potato, and eating doritos all day. I'll take my chances with the mountain.


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