# Ski Shop Expertise



## billski (Oct 21, 2014)

I've always felt uncomfortable buying equipment from a ski shop.   Why?  Mostly because it feels like they are just trying to sell "what's on the truck" rather than to meet my needs.  It gets worse, later in the season once they start having sales.    

Once I have described my skiing intent, almost all of them are quick to grab one pair and say "these are perfect for you."  They tend to be high priced.  Classic selling technique.  It's only when I push that s/he pulls out any other comparable models.  Sometimes they are not comparable.  Again, back to "sell what's on the truck."

I also just can't be sure they have the breadth of inventory to meet everyone's needs.

It all comes down to the competency of the salesperson and developing a relationship with them..  And it's still really hard for me to tell, even after all these years, since I don't go in anymore.

It's easy to say "go research it on the web" and buy it from the web.  I'd much rather "buy local".

I also hate brick and mortar store shopping.  I like buying local, but I don't want to spend 100 gallons of gasoline to go from store to store and figuring out for myself who has the best ski for me.   I know, that's the way it is, like buying a pair of shoes, but with the myriad of skis for sales, it's a complex combination of variables that meet to make the ski for me. 

There ARE excellent sales people, knowledgeable and helpful, but they are hard to find.

What do you think?


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## mriceyman (Oct 21, 2014)

Find a reputable shop on here relative to where u live. Im sure people on here have great contacts that you can utilize and it cuts out all the bs of finding the right salesman to deal with. Id much rather a local shop than a big box store. 


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## dlague (Oct 21, 2014)

I am on board - I go online for everything!  I research everything, read about the products intended market, etc.  Last night and today, I stood foot in three ski shops and started asking questions and all seemed to be up on the marketing material.  Armed with information I gathered online, I entered with a target ski that my wife wants.  Most tried to up sell to a ski I was not interested in.  Knowing online pricing, I started looking around and I found binding prices to be about $40-$50 more expensive, current year model skis not much of a difference (still higher though), last year model prices way higher, boot prices are about the same pattern as the skis.  BTW I also went to Sports Authority while I was at it and their selection sucked (generic market purchasers).

IMO, many of the avid skiers on this site are not your typical shop customers (not saying you don't go to a shop - just more knowledgeable) and can technically totally avoid the running around and hassles.  Most of us enjoy reading about gear like it is the newspaper.  Most of us, can read the specs and know what they mean.  So .... online purchasing with free shipping is a no brainer.

Now I know there are people here that do shop locally and will pay the premium, in fact, some of you have no problem dishing out money on the latest gear at the inflated prices.  My sister used to be one of those people that walked in to Ken Jones and pay $800-$900 on skis and pay $600 on boots and at the same time buy all the accessories.  I thought she was f'n nuts.  Finally convinced her last year to look online and research tent sales or whatever because I showed her that the skis she bought could have been purchased for about 60% of what she paid.

Unfortunately, local markets can not compete with the higher volume online organizations.  However, based on what I have seen in these stores, plenty of people still go there.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 21, 2014)

When I purchased new skis two years ago I knew exactly what I wanted. I was able to beat any price I found online by $50 at the ski shop I frequent most often.


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## dlague (Oct 21, 2014)

I have to note - I went to the ski shops because I wanted to have binding put on my sons skis.  Sports Authority in Manchester NH mounts and checks bindings for $25.  I brought one boot they said they need both (never heard of that).  While in town opted to go to Ken Jones to find out there mount and check is $60 (what?).  Looked around and I was shitting my pants!  I returned to S & W in Concord, NH (just to pop in) for the fun of it, knew there price for the mount and check is $40.  Called Ski and Sports in Plymouth, NH - mount and check was $50.  

Finally went to Ski Fanatics in Campton, NH and the mount and check was $25 - refreshing.  That same ski shop had some pretty good deals on last year model skis and they were all in agreement that buying last year gear is the way to go.  They were a no pressure shop and cool to hang around in.  Actually bought my son's poles while I was there (big spender that I am $20).


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 21, 2014)

Finding a good salesman in any buissness can be quite difficult. I personaly am a very laid back no pressure sales guy. I do not work on commision so way less pushy. If I was paid based on my sales I am sure it would change quite a bit, when I am looking at a empty dinner table.

Of coarse whatever a shop has is "the best". Will a chevy sales guy ever tell you to go down to the ford dealer?


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## wa-loaf (Oct 21, 2014)

Buy my boots in the shop, most everything else is done online these days. A lot of online places will even mount for you if you give them the bsl. Even had a place drill holes for a binding I already had last year. Did the rest of the work myself.


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## murff81 (Oct 21, 2014)

Agreed, if you do your research before hand, most purchases can be made online. Boots are pretty much the only thing I would buy from a shop.

Even then depending on the price I will try on everything at shop and purchase online....I don't like to do that as buying local is better, but if they can't come close to online price I take to the internet. (My local shop is knowledgeable but sometimes come across snoody)


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## dlague (Oct 21, 2014)

murff81 said:


> Agreed, if you do your research before hand, most purchases can be made online. Boots are pretty much the only thing I would buy from a shop.
> 
> Even then depending on the price I will try on everything at shop and purchase online....I don't like to do that as buying local is better, but if they can't come close to online price I take to the internet. (My local shop is knowledgeable but sometimes come across snoody)



Even with boots - your mondo size, in step and last does not really change.  I find that sticking to a boot brand generally works best.  However, if switching to a different brand, I have no qualms with shipping them back - summer gives me plenty of time to do that.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 21, 2014)

dlague said:


> Even with boots - your mondo size, in step and last does not really change.  I find that sticking to a boot brand generally works best.  However, if switching to a different brand, I have no qualms with shipping them back - summer gives me plenty of time to do that.



If you haven't gone the extra step to get custom foot beds and stance analysis (canting and fore/aft balance) you are really missing out. It will make a real impact in your skiing.


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## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2014)

Shops exist for a reason.


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## dlague (Oct 21, 2014)

wa-loaf said:


> If you haven't gone the extra step to get custom foot beds and stance analysis (canting and fore/aft balance) you are really missing out. It will make a real impact in your skiing.



Did you pay for that?  I have bought boots in the past at a few shops and they never went that far.  It was more like trying on shoes.  Once again, once you know that then you can look online for boots that have features to adjust for cant issues and custom foot beds can go in any boot - at least they did for my son.  My son had custom foot beds created at the podiatrist though.

I am actually pretty happy with my skiing - not going to be the ski-off champion but I am comfortable where I am.


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## Quietman (Oct 21, 2014)

wa-loaf said:


> If you haven't gone the extra step to get custom foot beds and stance analysis (canting and fore/aft balance) you are really missing out. It will make a real impact in your skiing.



If custom foot beds are out of your price range, I recommend these *Sole Softec Response Insoles*  They are heat modable for a custom fit, and have are the best that I've ever used. I have a pair in my trail runners and another for my ski boots as they are about 1/2" shorter. They also have the Softec Ultra model which is thicker.


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## marcski (Oct 21, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Shops exist for a reason.



Yes, and their numbers are dwindling for a reason.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 21, 2014)

dlague said:


> Did you pay for that?  I have bought boots in the past at a few shops and they never went that far.  It was more like trying on shoes.  Once again, once you know that then you can look online for boots that have features to adjust for cant issues and custom foot beds can go in any boot - at least they did for my son.  My son had custom foot beds created at the podiatrist though.
> 
> I am actually pretty happy with my skiing - not going to be the ski-off champion but I am comfortable where I am.



The foot beds are extra, usually around $100. The other bootfitting stuff is usually included especially when you are paying $400-600 for high end boots. Cuff canting is not the same sole canting. I first had it done 7 years ago and it made a huge difference in my performance. Edging suddenly became easier (my left foot always wandered a bit) and I felt much more balanced. The bad thing about it is now that I know this I can't go back to off the shelf boots.


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## Abubob (Oct 21, 2014)

Don't tell them what kind of skier you are. Tell them what kind of ski you want. How do you find that out? Demo.


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## dlague (Oct 21, 2014)

marcski said:


> Yes, and their numbers are dwindling for a reason.



Not so fast!

Note chain stores dropped slightly and remained flat, Internet sales increasing bit by bit, specialty stores are still the bulk of sales but trending downward.  Overall the market peaked and then went flat.

Specialty stores will be supported by new entrants and intermediates that do not have any interest in knowing much about their gear, loyal customers that like the ski shop experience, and consumers of apparel.  Snow sports purchases are a 2.6 billion dollar business with 640 million in the form of equipment the remainder is apparel and accessories.


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## Scruffy (Oct 21, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Shops exist for a reason.



Yes! Use em or lose em.  Find a good shop and they'll work with you usually. Mine will even order skis he doesn't normally carry if you know what you want.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 21, 2014)

dlague said:


> Not so fast!
> 
> Note chain stores dropped slightly and remained flat, Internet sales increasing bit by bit,



He was talking about the physical number of stores, not gross sales figures.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 21, 2014)

dlague said:


> Even with boots - your mondo size, in step and last does not really change.  I find that sticking to a boot brand generally works best.  However, if switching to a different brand, I have no qualms with shipping them back - summer gives me plenty of time to do that.



I dont know if that is necessarily true.  I was an 11.5 shoe for 20 years and then a few years ago I noticed new shoes I bought online seemed tight.  went with my son to buy him shoes and while I was there, measured my feet and to my surprise, I'm a 12.5-13.
and for ski boots, imho, having them fitted by someone who knows what they are doing is worth it.  and if there is any issue, the shop can work on them.

as for skis, I buy online and have the bindings mounted up in VT.  the local ski shops in westchester, Ny are no good.


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## crank (Oct 21, 2014)

I take what the shops say with a grain of salt and will research, never buy on the spot unless they have a deal on something I know I want. took a damaged ski to my local shop and the tech manager took one look at it and said these skis are done, can't be fixed.  Their interest is to sell you something.  I am sure there are shops you can totally trust and rely on, but be skeptical.

Edit:  I did not complete my damaged ski story...I later took it to an on mountain shop where they cut out a bit of damaged edge and replaced it along with patching the ski's bottom and for $40 they were fine for long, long time.


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## billski (Oct 21, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont know if that is necessarily true.  I was an 11.5 shoe for 20 years and then a few years ago I noticed new shoes I bought online seemed tight.


many people's arches collapse as they get older.  Mine did.  I gained a whole size, mostly for width.


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## gmcunni (Oct 21, 2014)

Highway Star said:


> Shops exist for a reason.



so we can try stuff on and check it out before buying online cheaper?


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## billski (Oct 21, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> so we can try stuff on and check it out before buying online cheaper?



When Amazon started coming strong, BestBuy got sick of being Amazon's showroom.  So they went to the manufacturers and requested a special  model just for them.


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## dlague (Oct 21, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> so we can try stuff on and check it out before buying online cheaper?



Not condoning this!  Might get my head chewed off!


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## Savemeasammy (Oct 22, 2014)

Whether people want to admit it or not, a quality salesperson's time and knowledge has value.  I am willing to pay a reasonable percentage for that value.  


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## gmcunni (Oct 22, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Whether people want to admit it or not, a quality salesperson's time and knowledge has value.  I am willing to pay a reasonable percentage for that value.



 i am too if/when they can provide value.  i joked (mostly) about the trying on then buying online.  can't say i've never done it but i do try to buy local when i can and it makes sense (and cents -- won't pay a premium but doesn't have to be cheapest either)

similar to bill's initial comment, i don't like being "sold" what they want me to have vs what i want/need.. .and trust is an issue for me, i'm skeptical of sales people.


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## C-Rex (Oct 22, 2014)

I do my research online and then go to stores get some hands on before I buy.  Boots I always buy in a store, of course.  I'll try on every pair they have and walk around in them for a while before I buy.  I know it's a pain in the ass for them so I'm happy to give them the sale.  With other gear, I'll try to give the local guy the sale if I think the shop is worthy.  If I'm being treated as a valued customer, and the people stand buy their products I'll usually give them the sale.  If the prices are way higher than online, I'll give them the chance to match it or at least find a reasonable middle ground.  I'm OK paying the local guy a bit more, especially if I know he'll take care of me if I have a problem with something I bought from him.

A few friends and I have been impressed with Colorado Ski and Bike in West Springfield, MA. (they also have a smaller store in Enfield, CT)  I got my board there last year.  They are knowledgeable, have a good selection, and are always willing to haggle.  That last one is important and smart of them.  Most people will feel much better buying something expensive if they think they are getting a deal, even if it's just a small percentage.


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## gmcunni (Oct 22, 2014)

i want new boots this year, need to find a shop close by i can trust.  place i use for other ski stuff doesn't instill confidence in me for boot fittings.


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## Savemeasammy (Oct 22, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> i joked (mostly) about the trying on then buying online.



I didn't mean to sound like I was calling you out...!  If a shop has priced something outrageously high and they aren't willing to negotiate, then I wouldn't have an issue buying elsewhere - I have done this.  That's why I qualified my statement by saying I would pay a "reasonable" percentage. 

IMO, if you are looking to buy boots, and intend to buy online, then I don't think it's cool to waste someone's time (and knowledge) at a shop.  Perhaps the best tactic would be to state up front that you are interested in a particular boot(s), and that you have found them for "x amount", and is the shop willing to come close to that price?  If so, then I think it's fair to take that sales persons' time.   Otherwise you should just roll the dice online - and hope for a good fitting boot...


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## dlague (Oct 22, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I didn't mean to sound like I was calling you out...!  If a shop has priced something outrageously high and they aren't willing to negotiate, then I wouldn't have an issue buying elsewhere - I have done this.  That's why I qualified my statement by saying I would pay a "reasonable" percentage.
> 
> IMO, if you are looking to buy boots, and intend to buy online, then I don't think it's cool to waste someone's time (and knowledge) at a shop.  Perhaps the best tactic would be to state up front that you are interested in a particular boot(s), and that you have found them for "x amount", and is the shop willing to come close to that price?  If so, then I think it's fair to take that sales persons' time.   Otherwise you should just roll the dice online - and hope for a good fitting boot...
> 
> ...



I have a great example.  I had been researching boots online for my wife and came up with a few choices.  Having the mentality that many have "by boots from a shop - not online", we headed to Zimmermanns in Nashua.  So they started with the whole type of skier blah blah blah spiel and wanted to put her in a softer boot.  I expressed interest in targeted boots which they thought would be relatively stiff.  My thinking is progression, not status quo.  Finally, we started looking at boots that I felt were better suited for her and we actually all agreed on a specific boot and size.  So we decided to buy the boot (price was not on display).  When he told me the price I was caught off guard.  The price for the boot was $525 - some may think that is not big deal.  I told the guy that we will need to think about it and walked away.  In the interest of time and mileage, I bought the same boot on Evo for $234.  Was that persons time worth more than twice the price - I think not.

That was my one time doing this.  I will not go through that process again.  This was about 9 years ago.  I now stick to the same brand mondo size and last for her and we have had no problems.  Even if we did, I buy during the summer so retuning if the fit is not right is not a big deal since it is all done from my home.   Her skiing has progressed nicely in my favor.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> That was my one time doing this.  I will not go through that process again.  This was about 9 years ago.  I now stick to the same brand mondo size and last for her and we have had no problems.  Even if we did, I buy during the summer so retuning if the fit is not right is not a big deal since it is all done from my home.   Her skiing has progressed nicely in my favor.



That's like going skiing once, having a bad time and saying you won't ever ski again.


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## Savemeasammy (Oct 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> I have a great example.  I had been researching boots online for my wife and came up with a few choices.  Having the mentality that many have "by boots from a shop - not online", we headed to Zimmermanns in Nashua.  So they started with the whole type of skier blah blah blah spiel and wanted to put her in a softer boot.  I expressed interest in targeted boots which they thought would be relatively stiff.  My thinking is progression, not status quo.  Finally, we started looking at boots that I felt were better suited for her and we actually all agreed on a specific boot and size.  So we decided to buy the boot (price was not on display).  When he told me the price I was caught off guard.  The price for the boot was $525 - some may think that is not big deal.  I told the guy that we will need to think about it and walked away.  In the interest of time and mileage, I bought the same boot on Evo for $234.  Was that persons time worth more than twice the price - I think not.
> 
> That was my one time doing this.  I will not go through that process again.  This was about 9 years ago.  I now stick to the same brand mondo size and last for her and we have had no problems.  Even if we did, I buy during the summer so retuning if the fit is not right is not a big deal since it is all done from my home.   Her skiing has progressed nicely in my favor.



This is an example of when you could have tried to negotiate.  To me, if they don't have the price listed (which, for the record, I do not like...), it seems like they would be willing to negotiate...

To your credit, at least you buy online WITHOUT wasting someone's time in a shop first...!


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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> I have a great example.  I had been researching boots online for my wife and came up with a few choices.  Having the mentality that many have "by boots from a shop - not online", we headed to Zimmermanns in Nashua.  So they started with the whole type of skier blah blah blah spiel and wanted to put her in a softer boot.  I expressed interest in targeted boots which they thought would be relatively stiff.  My thinking is progression, not status quo.  Finally, we started looking at boots that I felt were better suited for her and we actually all agreed on a specific boot and size.  So we decided to buy the boot (price was not on display).  When he told me the price I was caught off guard.  The price for the boot was $525 - some may think that is not big deal.  I told the guy that we will need to think about it and walked away.  In the interest of time and mileage, I bought the same boot on Evo for $234.  Was that persons time worth more than twice the price - I think not.
> 
> *​That was my one time doing this.  I will not go through that process again.  This was about 9 years ago.*  I now stick to the same brand mondo size and last for her and we have had no problems.  Even if we did, I buy during the summer so retuning if the fit is not right is not a big deal since it is all done from my home.   Her skiing has progressed nicely in my favor.



I don't think it's wise to make decisions based upon a single experience, especially when that experience occurred 9 years ago.

An example to the contrary of your experience is that, I went into a shop two weekends ago with a couple of this years model boots in mind.  I wear a 26.5 mondo size, which is a quite popular size and it's rare to see a leftover from last year in a shop in that size for an advanced level boot. 

The boots I targeted all had similar prices at the store as to what I was seeing online; within $50 or so.   None of them fit quite right.  I tried on a boot I hadn't targeted, the Tecnica Mach 1 and it felt great.  Tecnicas have never fit me well before, but apparently they changed a lot since I last tried them *about 9 years ago  *  .   Price on those was $699; exactly as advertised on EVO right now.

I said, that was about $150-$200 more than what I had budgeted.  I would've walked out.  He points me out a pair of last years model Nordicas that fit even better than the Tecnicas.  They were $350, sitting on the floor mixed in with a bunch of crappy boots from last year or even older.  I bought them, got a Sunday River lift ticket in the deal as well and then he spent a good half hour with me a few days later dialing in the fit for me. 

That's an experience you can't get online and as good of a value as you'll find online.   FTR - the shop (Fire on the Mountain in Dover, NH) also had some crazy good deals on leftover ski models from last year; just as good as the price online.


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## Ragman (Oct 22, 2014)

What everyone seems to be forgetting here is that OUR time is worth something too.  I dont blame dlague for doing what he did.   I do think he shouldnt base every shop or even that particular one on that one experience.  But again many people here talk about wasting the salespersons time.  What about MY time?  the only shop near me is an hour away from my house and 15 min from my work so I would go on my lunch hour.  If the salesperson just tries to push me to the most expensive boot because he/she will make the most commission then they are wasting my time too.  

Understandably, the shop needs to make a profit or we will never have a local place to go to try on boots or get our skis. But I dont go to a ski shop to try to chew down an elevated price tag.  We arent buying a car here, they should put the sticker on the boot and there should be no haggling - IMHO.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> So we decided to buy the boot (price was not on display).  When he told me the price I was caught off guard.  The price for the boot was $525 - some may think that is not big deal.  I told the guy that we will need to think about it and walked away.  In the interest of time and mileage, I bought the same boot on Evo for $234.  Was that persons time worth more than twice the price - I think not.



Were you comparing the exact same boots? Including model year? Comparing a current boot to a leftover is jot a fair comparison. A car dealer would never sell that years car for the leftover on the lots price.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 22, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> *This is an example of when you could have tried to negotiate.*



In the example he gave, the spread is *124%*!  That's tough to believe, but if it's the case I don't think_ "negotiating"_ is going to even get you remotely close to the price he found online.


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## gmcunni (Oct 22, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> I didn't mean to sound like I was calling you out...!


nope.. 99% of what i type here should be read with a sarcastic tone or assumed to be a joke....


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2014)

billski said:


> I've always felt uncomfortable buying equipment from a ski shop.   Why?  Mostly because it feels like they are just trying to sell "what's on the truck" rather than to meet my needs.  It gets worse, later in the season once they start having sales.
> 
> Once I have described my skiing intent, almost all of them are quick to grab one pair and say "these are perfect for you."  They tend to be high priced.  Classic selling technique.  It's only when I push that s/he pulls out any other comparable models.  Sometimes they are not comparable.  Again, back to "sell what's on the truck."
> 
> ...



You're going to the wrong shops if you feel that way....


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## billski (Oct 22, 2014)

I can see pricing boots with gold and diamond trim at MSRP for the shops in Deer Valley, where money is no object.   I can see street pricing for those who just don't know better, the guy or gal that comes in and wants to go skiing a couple of times each winter.  I can't understand why high end boots are priced as high as they are, since most people in that category "know better", know their materials, flex, fit, etc.    Clearly high performance boots cost more to design and manufacture, but is the MSRP or street price justifiable?  Is the margin higher?

What kind of gross margins are ski shops seeing on hardgoods like skis  and boots?   I it must vary by the type of gear.  My gut tells me  margins are much higher on low-end gear.

Do many shops dicker?
Is buying an al-a carte bundle (i.e., boots and bindings) a better deal for the consumer?


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## billski (Oct 22, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> You're going to the wrong shops if you feel that way....


  How many "wrong" shops are there?   How do you find a "good" shop?   What constitutes a good shop?  

It's unfortunate, yet understandable that many competent shops are near the mountains.  When I get to the mountain, I want to ski, not shop.


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## bigbog (Oct 22, 2014)

wa-loaf said:


> ...The bad thing about it is now that I know this I can't go back to off the shelf boots.



Wa-loaf, at first glance it may, indeed, seem like a conspiracy....
It does seem to be more and more a jigsaw puzzle in getting a shim between the boot and ground-floor portion of the lug...ala Technica, but I still think that nut can be cracked..and some other brands still have portions of their flat lugs..of a Vibram-type material, which can be swapped out if needed..or hardened by epoxy applied on a timed procedure.. 
 I haven't measured the depth of the angular zigging and zagging of some Technicas, but one can get the highest shims, flat, and with appropriate saw and careful measuring + solid epoxy(of which I have to find) = one should be able to achieve a solid fit in between the boot & ground-floor...


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## wa-loaf (Oct 22, 2014)

bigbog said:


> Wa-loaf, at first glance it may, indeed, seem like a conspiracy....
> It does seem to be more and more a jigsaw puzzle in getting a shim between the boot and ground-floor portion of the lug...ala Technica, but I still think that nut can be cracked..and some other brands still have portions of their flat lugs..of a Vibram-type material, which can be swapped out if needed..or hardened by epoxy applied on a timed procedure..
> I haven't measured the depth of the angular zigging and zagging of some Technicas, but one can get the highest shims, flat, and with appropriate saw and careful measuring + solid epoxy(of which I have to find) = one should be able to achieve a solid fit in between the boot & ground-floor...



Not sure where you are going here, but I'm happy to have someone else do the work for me. Some people may not need it, but my feet and stance require a fair amount of work to get the best performance.


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## Domeskier (Oct 22, 2014)

Who needs ski shop expertise when there are some many awesome experts on the internets willing to share their insights for free?


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 22, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> Who needs ski shop expertise when there are some many awesome experts on the internets willing to share their insights for free?



Free advise may be worth what you pay fornit....


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## Domeskier (Oct 22, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Free advise may be worth what you pay fornit....



I always pay with my eternal gratitude.  Which, come to think of it, probably isn't worth all that much....


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## mbedle (Oct 22, 2014)

At least be glad you have multiple outlets to purchase equipment from, including the ability to at least try them on before purchasing. On the alpine snowboarding side of things, we have only a couple of online retailers in the USA to purchase from and very few boards, binding or boots to pick from. Do most of the ski boots you guys buy, come with moldable liners? Only asking because none of the alpine boots come without them. So basically, fit out of the box or off the shelf was not nearly as important as boot stiffness and cant (with them being changed by replacement of the tongue, liners or adjustment on the boots).


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## dlague (Oct 22, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think it's wise to make decisions based upon a single experience, especially when that experience occurred 9 years ago.



I will provide you a list of ski shops visited in the past:

Zimmermans (Obviously) - Nashua, NH
Proctor Jones - Nashua, NH
Buchikas - Salem, NH
Ski Haus - Salem, NH
Bensons - Derry, NH
Ken Jones - Manchester, NH (Highest pressure sales)
Ski Market - Manchester, NH (closed now)
Lahoot's - Lincoln, NH
Rodgers - Lincoln, NH
Ski Fanatics - Campton, NH
Ski and Snowboard Liquidators, North Conway, NH
Bob and Terry's - North Conway, NH
EMS

I have done my time and wasted a boat load of gas driving around.   I always feel like I am about to get pounced on and feel like they are trying to read how deep my pockets are.  I will always pop my head in a ski shop - you never know what you might find.  But for the most part, I generally find better deals online.  I liked the Liquidator store listed above almost as good as online pricing.


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## dlague (Oct 22, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Were you comparing the exact same boots? Including model year? Comparing a current boot to a leftover is jot a fair comparison. A car dealer would never sell that years car for the leftover on the lots price.



BTW $525 vs $234 - Dalbello Krypton Lotus - same boot, same year, same everything.  I was surprised at the stores price since it was a previous season boot.  We never buy current year stuff - too expensive for my taste.  Not an affordability issue - just cannot see spending money on current year models when last years stuff is nearly the same if not exactly the same but a different graphic and cheaper.  Rule is not 100% but close and I can have just as much fun on new year old gear and spend the extra money on beer!


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## SkiFanE (Oct 22, 2014)

Try being an expert middle-aged lady.  I have never owned a pair of female skis, so right away I have to shut them down there.  But I haven't bought a pair in a ski shop for about 7 years, all used or custom since then (altho last pair online).  Just got some new skis mounted with bindings, usually din of 8.  He looked at me skeptically... "are you I, II or III level skier?"  Me:  "what's a 3?".  Him: "Advanced".  Okay.. "nothing higher than that?"  "3+".  Okay...that's me.  I pick them up..he says "you were right,  came out to a DIN of 8".  

But we have mostly bought from one ski shop the last 10 years at SundayRiver (the skis I bought online were from them..saw the deal in my FB feed lol).  Shop was bought/sold, 2nd year with new owners.  BUt lots of old employees work there.  I do trust them.  They have gone above and beyond to return, repair, fix things for us - they know we are a big ski family and screwing us for a sale will be bad in the long run.  It's the daytrippers they would try to screw...lol...I say that in jest as I hope they wouldn't screw anyone...but if they did, it wouldn't be us.  

So...if you don't show loyalty to a shop, you may not get any in return.  We have it easy since we are at one ski area...but still...if you're always looking for the cheapest...they you get what you pay for.  I'm sure I've paid a little more than I could have on-line for many things..but in return we get honesty and service.  With 5 of us...we drop probably $2k/year average (some years $4k, some years $500 - depends on kids growth spurts haha).  And if you spend all this time with the sales guy trying to get the perfect ski for you (sometimes I see people totally hog a salesguy for 30 minutes discussing minutia of the equipment) and then you walk out not buying a thing...you've kinda ruined it for the next guy like you...IMO.  Even doubly bad if after all that advice you buy $100 cheaper online.  So - I kinda come up on the ski shops side on this one...they need to make $ and they know many people take their advice and use it elsewhere.  So if  you're a daytripper and not very loyal... well... yeah... good luck to you.  Try to stick with one shop...if you pay a bit more...well its worth it in the longrun, absolutely no doubt about it.


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## SkiFanE (Oct 22, 2014)

billski said:


> I can see pricing boots with gold and diamond trim at MSRP for the shops in Deer Valley, where money is no object.   I can see street pricing for those who just don't know better, the guy or gal that comes in and wants to go skiing a couple of times each winter.  I can't understand why high end boots are priced as high as they are, since most people in that category "know better", know their materials, flex, fit, etc.    Clearly high performance boots cost more to design and manufacture, but is the MSRP or street price justifiable?  Is the margin higher?
> 
> What kind of gross margins are ski shops seeing on hardgoods like skis  and boots?   I it must vary by the type of gear.  My gut tells me  margins are much higher on low-end gear.
> 
> ...



I'm not a dickerer.  But our ski shop gives you 20% off with SR ski pass, and when we've done the "big" purchases ($2-3k) they'll go higher (but when it's on sale, they won't give us deal).  We always ask for "last years model" first, and they happily show it.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm pretty much loyal to one shop. I've sent friends in there also. They've shown their appreciation.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 22, 2014)

dlague said:


> BTW $525 vs $234 - Dalbello Krypton Lotus - same boot, same year, same everything.  I was surprised at the stores price since it was a previous season boot. * We never buy current year stuff - too expensive for my taste.  Not an affordability issue - just cannot see spending money on current year models when last years stuff is nearly the same if not exactly the same but a different graphic and cheaper.*



Amen.  The molds cost something like $500k to $1M, they aint changing them without getting their ROI back.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 22, 2014)

billski said:


> How many "wrong" shops are there?   How do you find a "good" shop?   What constitutes a good shop?
> 
> It's unfortunate, yet understandable that many competent shops are near the mountains.  When I get to the mountain, I want to ski, not shop.



I can't say for certain--I was responding to your comment that the shops you visit aren't good. 

Brick and mortar retail is hard. So there are fewer options. 

That said, for skis, lately I've bought online after a lot of research. I do still visit shops. It's now going on three years since I visited a shop in the NE, but there are many good ones and yes they can be closer to ski areas. 

In MA I had great luck with Strand's in Worcester. Local family with lots of experience and know-how. Definitely try them. REI is also decent. Other places were meh in my opinion...but they were Ski Market and Sports Authority.

Up north: Lahouts in Lincoln/Littleton is hit or miss. I hear lots of good things about Rodgers. Both stores are locals....Lahouts is on the second and third generation now. 

Vermont: Alpine Shop used to suck, but that owner sold. It's much better. Or was when I last visited.


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## dlague (Oct 22, 2014)

I think ski shops need to get into the 2000's.  Their techniques are so pre 2000.  Evo for one (there are others) has it figured out.  Brick and mortar turned online store.  If in Seattle area you can walk right in.

Love their phone greeting too - "Hey lovely people!"


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## steamboat1 (Oct 23, 2014)

dlague said:


> I think ski shops need to get into the 2000's.  Their techniques are so pre 2000.  Evo for one (there are others) has it figured out.  Brick and mortar turned online store.  If in Seattle area you can walk right in.
> 
> Love their phone greeting too - "Hey lovely people!"
> 
> ...


What's so new about that? The ski shop I frequent has had an online store for years. Maybe not as big a selection as evo but comparable pricing. Better yet I don't have to go to Seattle to walk in.


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## dlague (Oct 23, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> What's so new about that? The ski shop I frequent has had an online store for years. Maybe not as big a selection as evo but comparable pricing. Better yet I don't have to go to Seattle to walk in.



Maybe I need to visit that shop!  Or their website?  There are plenty of Brick and Mortar ski shops doing the same thing as Evo - LevelnineSports, Summit Sports (skis.com).  These three seem to to it best but not limited to those three either.  The one thing I do not like is going to a ski shop website and not being able to look through their inventory - that is old school.


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## Ragman (Oct 23, 2014)

Went to local ski shop yesterday - First time in a loooong time.  Was met at the door by a young gentleman who was very pleasant and asked if he could help me find anything.  I saw the wall of ski boots in the back and told him I was looking for boots, thanked him and walked to the wall.  As I was browsing the selection and gasping from sticker shock he came over and asked if he could help.  I asked him simply, Im looking for the least expensive pair of 100 Flex ski boots.  He showed me the Techinca Mega RT8 boots ($179.99) and then proceeded to help me size my foot using a foot ruler.  Found my feet to be about a 29 Mondo.  After checking a few other things out he felt my boot size would be about a 29.5 which they didnt have in the Mega RT8, Just the Mega 8 ($169.99) which is a 60 Flex.  I tried it on anyway and it was nice but there seemed to be alot of room in the ball area.  SO we then moved to the Rossigol Alias Sensor 100's ($299.99) which were a great fit.  He pointed out a few others that were in the $400-$600 range at which point I told him that was way out of my price range.

Anyway - point is, he seemed to be very knowledgable, was patient with me, gave me his full attention (wasnt very busy in store) and answered every one of my questions.  All in all I loved the experience and wished I had the money to throw down.  I asked for his name so that when/if I do come back I would like him to get my sale.  I really wish the equipment wasnt this expensive but it is what it is.  I like to ski so ya gotta pay to play.


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## Ragman (Oct 23, 2014)

Oh and I have to mention that I looked up the boots I tested online and the price was pretty much the same.  These were all 2015 model boots and the only way I could find them cheaper is last years models.  

ALso checked the upcoming Mega Dome Sale flyer and the prices on the boots in the flyer are the same as in the store so no big savings at the sale.


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## billski (Oct 23, 2014)

Boy, this thread has degenerated into a really good thread of wisdom!  How did that happen?  
Anyways, Trailboss, thanks for the tips. Unless the shop has staff that sticks around for a long time, a fresh referral is always in order.  Way to go ragman - I hope it works out for you.  One beni of a brick and mortar store is if you have problems, they may be able to help with adjustments.  I remember a long time ago, I had a pair of Langes that, for some reason, I needed more flex.  Took them to the shop, there was a hidden adjustment in the boot.  He turned the key and off I went.  

Reminds me of the old story about the plumber who fixed a faucet with a $3 washer in two minutes flat. He gave him the bill for $60. The customer objected.  "Hey, that's so simple I could have done it.  Plus it only took you a minute."   The plumber responded, "you're paying me for what I know, not how long it took."    So if you're already knowledgeable, you'll do well online.   I pity the uninformed people who buy stuff online and it turns out to be a disaster.  They have very little recourse, and certainly won't get as speedy a remedy.


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## Old Duderino (Oct 23, 2014)

What is a reasonable price range for bootfiting at a shop when you didn't buy the boots there?  

It wasn't like I went online and only thought of the fitting afterwards.  I was trying boots on at the shop and had it narrowed down to to different Salomon models which felt to me like the brand that fit my foot best out of the box.  When I was ready to pull the trigger, I called the shop to see if they had the model I wanted and would come close to matching the lowest online price I found which they said they would.  By the time I got there they no longer had my size in that model and were not getting any more in so I try on the other Salomon boot I was interested in but ultimately bought the one I wanted online for about $70 less.  The shop guy said they would do bootfiting for me if I did buy online so I know that isn't an issue.  based on the off the shelf fit he didn't think much more than a $100 foot insert would be needed at first.


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## SkiFanE (Oct 23, 2014)

One more plug for the brick and mortars...as a property owner in a ski town - I'm supporting neighbors, families with kids in the school, I see them on the slope...they are members of the community...  who owns EVO?  Just sayin....it's just how I roll


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## bigbog (Oct 23, 2014)

wa-loaf said:


> Not sure where you are going here, but I'm happy to have someone else do the work for me. Some people may not need it, but my feet and stance require a fair amount of work to get the best performance.



Fwiw...just throwing this out there....
..Shimming(if one has to) under the binding is the easy way to go...but, AFAIK, eliminates the choice of a system binding ski...so far, but maybe there is a system unit that's shimmable, many are different in how they sit, and are attached, onto the ski...


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## billski (Oct 23, 2014)

Old Duderino said:


> What is a reasonable price range for bootfiting at a shop when you didn't buy the boots there?
> 
> It wasn't like I went online and only thought of the fitting afterwards.  I was trying boots on at the shop and had it narrowed down to to different Salomon models which felt to me like the brand that fit my foot best out of the box.  When I was ready to pull the trigger, I called the shop to see if they had the model I wanted and would come close to matching the lowest online price I found which they said they would.  By the time I got there they no longer had my size in that model and were not getting any more in so I try on the other Salomon boot I was interested in but ultimately bought the one I wanted online for about $70 less.  The shop guy said they would do bootfiting for me if I did buy online so I know that isn't an issue.  based on the off the shelf fit he didn't think much more than a $100 foot insert would be needed at first.



I went to Michaelson's in Plymouth NH with a pair of boots about five years old.  I spent an hour, put a footbed in, did a modest amount of grinding, shimming and God knows what to relieve a pain point I had.  He also threw in a set of Booster straps.  I think I walked out for about $120.  That includes a return visit for any tweaks. What was nice was he did it all while I waited, since it was a long drive.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2014)

billski said:


> Reminds me of the old story about the plumber who fixed a faucet with a $3 washer in two minutes flat. He gave him the bill for $60. The customer objected.  "Hey, that's so simple I could have done it.  Plus it only took you a minute."   The plumber responded, "you're paying me for what I know, not how long it took."



I've heard that story 101 times, and I've hated it all 101 times.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've heard that story 101 times, and I've hated it all 101 times.



So the plumber who has ammassed his knowledge over many years and at a expense is just supposed to fix your problem for nothing? How does he pay for the vehicle he drove to get their, or any of his expenses?


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## Domeskier (Oct 23, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> So the plumber who has ammassed his knowledge over many years and at a expense is just supposed to fix your problem for nothing? How does he pay for the vehicle he drove to get their, or any of his expenses?



I guess if he wants repeat business he might.  I would be much more inclined to rehire a plumber who will not nickel and dime me on a nothing job.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> *So the plumber who has ammassed his knowledge over many years and at a expense is just supposed to fix your problem for nothing? How does he pay for the vehicle he drove to get their, or any of his expenses?*



That story is always told from the standpoint of something that seems egregiously and unfairly expensive, but yet it's okay simply because the plumber knew something that you didn't know.    It's not logical, and life doesn't really work like that.  

If the town plumber ran around the neighborhood ripping everyone off, he'd lose his work to the other town plumber(s) in short order.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> That story is always told from the standpoint of something that seems egregiously and unfairly expensive, but yet it's okay simply because the plumber knew something that you didn't know.    It's not logical, and life doesn't really work like that.
> *
> If the town plumber ran around the neighborhood ripping everyone off, he'd lose his work to the other town plumber(s) in short order.*



Yes they would lose their business if they are running around ripping everyone off.  But they lose their business if they run around doing everything for less than they can make a profit at.

So what is the $ amount that you feel is the line at which a service provider is aloud to start charging?  A business is in business to make money, not to provide free servise.  If you dont like their price, dont call them.


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## Savemeasammy (Oct 24, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've heard that story 101 times, and I've hated it all 101 times.



I think of this in terms of opportunity cost.  If this plumber is traveling .5 hour out of his way each way to make this simple repair, he obviously isn't making money when he otherwise could be.  How would your financial situation be if you spent 1/2 or more of your day traveling, and the other 1/2 getting paid by people for performing work in your area of expertise - rather than getting paid for the ENTIRE day...?


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## SIKSKIER (Oct 24, 2014)

billski said:


> I went to Michaelson's in Plymouth NH .


That would be Richelsons.He is one of the best in NE.
http://www.myfeetfirst.com/#!__proper-footwear-home


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## Glenn (Oct 26, 2014)

I worked at a ski shop during my college breaks in the mid to late 90s. Everyone was paid an hourly rate. Then the shop owner started offering a $10 bonus for every pair of straight skis sold.  

My pie in the ski dream if I owned a shop: Anyone selling skis (or boards) would have gone out on all the skis/boards the shop sold. 


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## Scruffy (Oct 26, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> That story is always told from the standpoint of something that seems egregiously and unfairly expensive, but yet it's okay simply because the plumber knew something that you didn't know.*    It's not logical, and life doesn't really work like that.
> *
> If the town plumber ran around the neighborhood ripping everyone off, he'd lose his work to the other town plumber(s) in short order.



Sure it does, ever visit a lawyer, doctor, accountant, financial adviser? Ever pay for an education? What, plumbers are somehow beneath it all?  In that hypothetical fable, the plumber was honest and professional. He could have told the customer they need a whole new facet and replaced it for $300. That story says more about the customer than the plumber. The customer should have happily paid for learning to how to fix a simple leak the next time.


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## marcski (Oct 27, 2014)

Scruffy said:


> Sure it does, ever visit a lawyer, doctor, accountant, financial adviser? Ever pay for an education? What, plumbers are somehow beneath it all?  In that hypothetical fable, the plumber was honest and professional. He could have told the customer they need a whole new facet and replaced it for $300. That story says more about the customer than the plumber. The customer should have happily paid for learning to how to fix a simple leak the next time.


Go online and watch a youtube video. you get schooled for free. I've fixed many household items and appliances etc. over the years that way.

But that plumber in th example did nothing wrong. He has to have a flat rate fee for just walking in the door..otherwise, as others have said, he couldn't make a living. Now, if that plumber tacked on $0.50 cents for the new washer...that would have been highway robbery.


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## SkiFanE (Oct 27, 2014)

Got a touch of this over the weekend.  My normal ski shop wasn't open...stopped by another in town to look for some skiboots I want.  I'm pretty certain of the model I want (technica mach1 105).  They only had the Conchise 95 (? I think).  I asked for the model I wanted after not seeing it on display.  No..they don't have it.  How about this one (the Conchise) he says.  No...I don't want that combo walk-boot feature...I want the 105s.  Well..he goes on to rave about the 95s...and that boot thingy is great, no problems with it (I don't want it...no need and wtf do I want more moving parts in my boots?  I've got 300+ days on 6yo boots...I beat them to shit and I guarantee I'd have a problem with some new-fangled feature).  So then he says he could get the 105 for me special order, in my size.  I said that'd be great...but since I'm not 100% sure I'd buy it, depends on the fit is that okay... he says "well...we would expect you to buy it".  See ya buddy.... never stepping foot in that shop again.  Found it on the website of my old-standby shop, talked to them today, it's in the store - I'll buy it online today and they'll let me return it if it doesn't fit (only 1 left in my size).  THAT is why I go to that stop religiously.


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## Ragman (Oct 27, 2014)

Scruffy said:


> Sure it does, ever visit a lawyer, doctor, accountant, financial adviser? Ever pay for an education? What, plumbers are somehow beneath it all?  In that hypothetical fable, the plumber was honest and professional. He could have told the customer they need a whole new facet and replaced it for $300. That story says more about the customer than the plumber. The customer should have happily paid for learning to how to fix a simple leak the next time.



I completely agree, however not all plumbers are created equal.  Seeing as weve successfully gotten off topic, I figured I would contribrute a little story.

I live in a split level home and we have a bathroom downstairs that I could not get to flush. I pulled the toilet off, snaked the line and still nothing.  Finally I called a plumber, he jammed almost 50ft of snake down there and couldnt get it to flow.  He was dumbfounded. Now the toilet sat on a small wooden platform that was finished and sat about 6 inches up from the concrete floor.  He said I would have to tear that up and see whats down there and charged me $150 for travel and time.

Ended up there was a tub underneath the toilet with a submersible sump pump that would pump the waste up and out.  The float on the pump was bad and one of the PVC lines was broke.  I ended up fixing it all myself but it did kind of suck to spend $150 to just be told that I had to tear up my floor to find the issue.


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## billski (Oct 27, 2014)

Shifty behavior.  Back in the pre-cambrian days of minicomputers, 16 megabytes (16MB, yes, that's right) was selling for $101,000 even before it was put on a circuit board the size of a large pizza box.  Knowing the customer was inevitably going to upgrade, we'd sell them a 16MB board with only 8MB enabled for $200,000.  If they wanted to upgrade to 16MB, we'd charge them $150,000.  Then we would move a jumper to enable the other 8MB.  To make the customer not get wise, the service proceedure called for an 8 hour process, where the cabinet would be entirely disassembled and then reconstructed, and then moving the jumper.   

Anyways, some enterprising customer engineers went into business doing upgrades for our systems.  They changed $75,000 and all they had to do was move the jumper.  That company is now called EMC.  Information is power.


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## Scruffy (Oct 27, 2014)

Ragman said:


> I completely agree, however not all plumbers are created equal.  Seeing as weve successfully gotten off topic, I figured I would contribrute a little story.
> 
> I live in a split level home and we have a bathroom downstairs that I could not get to flush. I pulled the toilet off, snaked the line and still nothing.  Finally I called a plumber, he jammed almost 50ft of snake down there and couldnt get it to flow.  He was dumbfounded. Now the toilet sat on a small wooden platform that was finished and sat about 6 inches up from the concrete floor.  He said I would have to tear that up and see whats down there and charged me $150 for travel and time.
> 
> Ended up there was a tub underneath the toilet with a submersible sump pump that would pump the waste up and out.  The float on the pump was bad and one of the PVC lines was broke.  I ended up fixing it all myself but it did kind of suck to spend $150 to just be told that I had to tear up my floor to find the issue.



Interesting story, and we can come up with a gazillion anecdotes of the lawyer that charged thousands and offered shoddy representation, so it goes on and on.  The points are: buyer beware, you get what you pay for, nothing is free, and everyone has to make a living.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

billski said:


> Shifty behavior.  Back in the pre-cambrian days of minicomputers, 16 megabytes (16MB, yes, that's right) was selling for $101,000 even before it was put on a circuit board the size of a large pizza box.  Knowing the customer was inevitably going to upgrade, we'd sell them a 16MB board with only 8MB enabled for $200,000.  If they wanted to upgrade to 16MB, we'd charge them $150,000.  Then we would move a jumper to enable the other 8MB.  To make the customer not get wise, the service proceedure called for an 8 hour process, where the cabinet would be entirely disassembled and then reconstructed, and then moving the jumper.
> 
> Anyways, some enterprising customer engineers went into business doing upgrades for our systems.*  They changed $75,000 and all they had to do was move the jumper.  That company is now called EMC.*  Information is power.



That's an absolutely amazing story!    But that story is exactly what would happen to your plumber eventually.  Undercut on price & ultimately screwed out of a customer.


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## Scruffy (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's an absolutely amazing story!    But that story is exactly what would happen to your plumber eventually.  Undercut on price & ultimately screwed out of a customer.



You don't have much respect for plumbers, do you?  $60 is totally reasonable for any call-out to your house, by any profession. By your own admissions, you don't own a house, you're clueless here. Sure, it would have been nice if the plumber decided to give the customer his time and money, and it would have made the homeowner feel great and tell wonderful stories about her heroic plumber; but to use your words, life doesn't really work like that.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2014)

$60/hr is a bargain for a plumber in my neck of the woods.


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## SkiFanE (Oct 27, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> $60/hr is a bargain for a plumber in my neck of the woods.



And one to come at the last second when emergency calls?  I once heard someone say it's an awesome profession to get into (if you have the stomach for it).  Because ultimately...when you're standing in shit in your house...no matter how poor or rich you are...or how the economy is doing...you're going to call a plumber.

And a firefighter friend of mine told me the story of a mansion in the rich town he worked for...basement got totally flooded in sewage...his captain said "this is when affluence meets effluence...".  LMAO.


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## dlague (Oct 27, 2014)

Welcome to the plumbing thread!


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## Domeskier (Oct 27, 2014)

Do plumbers really make most of their money on emergency repair work?  I would have thought it was the big jobs - new homes, renos, etc.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 27, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> Do plumbers really make most of their money on emergency repair work?  I would have thought it was the big jobs - new homes, renos, etc.



They bill at a lower hourly rate for contract jobs.  As Skifane said though, in emergencies, they can charge much higher.  I have paid $90 and $75 for such services the two times we have had an issue.  Both jobs took 30 minutes tops.  They also make money by marking up parts.


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