# Auto repair: Get a 2nd opinion



## Glenn (Nov 23, 2010)

I had a bit of a clunk when steering on my Jeep. I couldn't issolate it and didn't have the time to fix it, so I brought it to a local shop. I do about 99% of the work on that vehicle myself, but some things I just don't have the resources to do in my garage after work. Turns out, it was an end link on the drag link...got it fixed, all was well. But my steering wheel was now at 10 o'clock. I brought it to an alignment shop I've used in the past. They brough me back to "show me" why they couldn't align it. They claimed the outter driver's tie rod end was loose and wiggled the wheel a bit. "See this?" 

Now, this is a 2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The last of the "real" Jeeps if you will...old school steering linkage...two solid axles. It's very beefy vehicle, but it's not precise and tight like our Audi. Stuff wiggles on it...that's how it rolls. 

These guys hand me an estimate for $300. I almost shat. $90 for the end link. Really? $90? The most expensive I saw online was close to $50. I understand making a few bucks on parts...but that's nuts. 

So I brought it back to the guy who did the drag link end link. He called "BS"...according to him, everything else was fine. Gave me the number to a small local Ford dealership and who to talk to. 

I brought the Jeep there yesterday. For $76 I had the Jeep aligned and steering wheel straightened out. I saved just under $250. Unreal. I can't stand dishonesty. I feel bad for folks who just trust what a service advisor tells them as gospel. How do these guys sleep at night?


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## o3jeff (Nov 23, 2010)

Dealers suck, period. I am in the process of battling it out with Acura with a problem a car I bought 5 weeks ago has had since day one which they assured me they will take care of. 5 trips to the service department in 5 weeks and numerous new sets of tire and re-balancing the car still vibrates at highway speed. Now, mysteriously they claim they do not feel it and that it is just "road feel" and is perfectly acceptable, but will not let me test drive it with them. Brought it to two private garages that feel it along with a lawyer that feels it. After researching some of the Acura forums a little more this is a common problem with this vehicle and what people have found that fixes this has been replacing the axels/driveshafts which I am sure is not and easy/cheap fix.

Waiting for Acura Corporate to call me this morning to let me know what they are going to do.

Sorry for the hijack Glenn


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## bvibert (Nov 23, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Unreal. I can't stand dishonesty. I feel bad for folks who just trust what a service advisor tells them as gospel. How do these guys sleep at night?



That's a big part of why I do all the work on our cars myself.  Even if I know they're full of crap I don't have patience to deal with the games.

I'll be doing ball joints on my wife's Blazer this weekend.  I'm not really looking forward to bringing it to the alignment place after the job is done...  I've been tempted to do alignments myself just to save myself the headache, but in the right hands those alignment systems can do a much better job than I could with some string, a tape measure, and a level. 

When I was just out of high school I had the VW GTI I had at the time aligned at a chain tire place.  During the course of the alignment they managed to unscrew the inner tie-rod end from the steering rack almost all the way.  A day or two later the tie-rod came completely off as I was driving aggressively through a set of s-turns.  Suddenly I went from starting to turn right into the last turn to heading straight into on coming traffic with a mysteriously locked up tire.  Luckily I was able to keep it in my lane with the one remaining operational front tire.  Once the road straightened out the wheel came back in line and drove fine... until the next corner, where I was able to find a nice church parking lot to stop at.  Definitely a hair raising experience.


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## crank (Nov 23, 2010)

I've learned to always get a second opinion.  I've had dealerships try to rip me off as well as cheapo tire and brakes places.

1999 Psaat - we got it used and it was nothing but problems.  Took it to the dealer one time when the radio would not power and the brake light was on.  They told me the radio was shot and I needed a new brake controller computer.  I said you sure there isn't a reset button behind the radio?  

Took it to my local guy.  Radio- reset, circuit breaker button on the back.  Brake computer - sa,e. reset button.  Cost me $50 instead of over $1500.00

Took my old Nissan Quest van into a low budget tire and brake chain near work to get the brakes done and they tried to sell me new rotors, calipers, the works.  Took it to my Nissan dealer and they turned the rotors and put new pads in.

Ya can't trust anyone.  Sucks.


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## Glenn (Nov 23, 2010)

This alignment place was a local, private kind of shop. That's why the potential "rip off" surprised me a bit. I got the best deal at a small Ford dealership in the town I work in. It was irony at it's best. 

I've had horrible luck with the chain tire stores. I had to bring my wife's car back 3 times to get aligned years ago. Also, their ballancing machines never seem calibrated and any time you go over 70mph, shakeshakeshakeshake....


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## drjeff (Nov 23, 2010)

Glenn said:


> I had a bit of a clunk when steering on my Jeep. I couldn't issolate it and didn't have the time to fix it, so I brought it to a local shop. I do about 99% of the work on that vehicle myself, but some things I just don't have the resources to do in my garage after work. Turns out, it was an end link on the drag link...got it fixed, all was well. But my steering wheel was now at 10 o'clock. I brought it to an alignment shop I've used in the past. They brough me back to "show me" why they couldn't align it. They claimed the outter driver's tie rod end was loose and wiggled the wheel a bit. "See this?"
> 
> Now, this is a 2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The last of the "real" Jeeps if you will...old school steering linkage...two solid axles. It's very beefy vehicle, but it's not precise and tight like our Audi. Stuff wiggles on it...that's how it rolls.
> 
> ...



I read that as the 1st round is on you this weekend   :beer: :lol:


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## Glenn (Nov 23, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I read that as the 1st round is on you this weekend   :beer: :lol:



LMAO! I can't really argue with that logic! I'll be all fired up from skiing too. :flag:


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## darent (Nov 23, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> Dealers suck, period. I am in the process of battling it out with Acura with a problem a car I bought 5 weeks ago has had since day one which they assured me they will take care of. 5 trips to the service department in 5 weeks and numerous new sets of tire and re-balancing the car still vibrates at highway speed. Now, mysteriously they claim they do not feel it and that it is just "road feel" and is perfectly acceptable, but will not let me test drive it with them. Brought it to two private garages that feel it along with a lawyer that feels it. After researching some of the Acura forums a little more this is a common problem with this vehicle and what people have found that fixes this has been replacing the axels/driveshafts which I am sure is not and easy/cheap fix.
> 
> Waiting for Acura Corporate to call me this morning to let me know what they are going to do.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack Glenn



when going along at highway speed does it vibrate when you accelerate and stop when you back off the throttle, if this is the case and you have a FWD car check the CV joints, both inner and outer


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## skijay (Nov 23, 2010)

I dislike it when I am at the service department and I am explaining to the service adviser that my vehicle has a timing chain and not a timing belt.  If you work for a service department at least know your products.  I avoid a local Toyota dealer near me after the following:

1.  Told me the Scion needed a brake shim kit to correct a clicking noise.  Not covered under warranty. I paid $75 for a diagnosis charge. Did not get it fixed and went for a second opinion. I go to Bxxxxe Scion and the problem was a clasp on the wheel cover.  Nothing was wrong with the brakes. No charge. I did get a refund after some emails to the general manager of the local dealship.

2. Local Toyota dealer can not determine if the antenna on the 2010 Toyota Corolla S is for satellite radio.  You sell and service the car and you can not tell me if there is a satellite radio antenna under the casing or if it is dummy cover???  Just so you know the 2010 Corolla (all models) are pre-wired for satellite radio - the antenna is there from the factory and the wiring harness to tap into for the tuner box is in the trunk.  I had to get this from Bxxxxe Toyota - because the local dealer could not answer the question.  

3.  I need oil filters for the 2010 Corolla S.  Service Department at local Toyota dealer - the 2010 Corolla uses the same filter as the 2006 Scion xA.  Basically it is the same filter for almost all Toyota models.  
WRONG:  I was sold the old screw on filters, for 2010 the Corolla uses a paper type element. The parts guy got them back and I also received a $50 gift card after an email to general manager reminding him of problem 1 and told about problem 2 and also this current issue.

Love the Toyota products but sometimes a dealership can turn you away from the entire product line with their stupidity. If this was my only dealership to choose from, I would be driving something else!


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## jaja111 (Nov 23, 2010)

Monday - Father has a 2004 Ford Exploder with a 4x4 light on the dash blinking intermittently. Service shop who looked at the truck, on a lift, diagnoses problem as four wheel drive module ($400 plus an hour at $90) plus, possibly, a new solenoid at the transfer case ($200 plus two hours labor). 15 minutes under the truck in my garage and a very obvious 12-14 gauge black wire is hanging from the wiring harness to the solenoid with what appears to be a broken eyelet connector on the end of it. Ground was reattached and issue resolved in another 20 minutes. 

That shop would have had him for almost a $1000 if he'd said okay fix it. There must be some reputable people out there, but the crooks just destroy it for everyone.


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## darent (Nov 24, 2010)

jaja111 said:


> Monday - Father has a 2004 Ford Exploder with a 4x4 light on the dash blinking intermittently. Service shop who looked at the truck, on a lift, diagnoses problem as four wheel drive module ($400 plus an hour at $90) plus, possibly, a new solenoid at the transfer case ($200 plus two hours labor). 15 minutes under the truck in my garage and a very obvious 12-14 gauge black wire is hanging from the wiring harness to the solenoid with what appears to be a broken eyelet connector on the end of it. Ground was reattached and issue resolved in another 20 minutes.
> 
> That shop would have had him for almost a $1000 if he'd said okay fix it. There must be some reputable people out there, but the crooks just destroy it for everyone.



their are many parts replacers, but so few mechanics!!


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## o3jeff (Nov 25, 2010)

darent said:


> when going along at highway speed does it vibrate when you accelerate and stop when you back off the throttle, if this is the case and you have a FWD car check the CV joints, both inner and outer



No, it's a continuous vibration when cruising between 70-80, by no means does it chatter my teeth, it's slight but it is annoying.


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## bigbog (Nov 25, 2010)

Glenn said:


> ... But my steering wheel was now at 10 o'clock.


Don't think this has any significance....at the _other_ end of multiple subsystems...imho.



> These guys hand me an estimate for $300. I almost shat. $90 for the end link. Really? $90? The most expensive I saw online was close to $50. I understand making a few bucks on parts...but that's nuts.


Just "Original Jeep parts" ...my guess, same with every brand...  same type of examples with my Xterra....think it's industry-wide = why it really does help(IF we have the time!) to keep abreast of the 3rd party part developments.


> ....I brought the Jeep there yesterday. For $76 I had the Jeep aligned and steering wheel straightened out. I saved just under $250. Unreal. I can't stand dishonesty. I feel bad for folks who just trust what a service advisor tells them as gospel. How do these guys sleep at night?


The new world = troubleshoot yourself beforehand to save $$$.  So much for making life easy....:roll:


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## darent (Nov 25, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> No, it's a continuous vibration when cruising between 70-80, by no means does it chatter my teeth, it's slight but it is annoying.



I'm sure that you have balanced your tires, you might try rotating your tires to see if it stops, did they balance rear tires? sure sounds like a balance problem, tires or a shaft.


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## campgottagopee (Nov 29, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> Dealers suck, period. I am in the process of battling it out with Acura with a problem a car I bought 5 weeks ago has had since day one which they assured me they will take care of. 5 trips to the service department in 5 weeks and numerous new sets of tire and re-balancing the car still vibrates at highway speed. Now, mysteriously they claim they do not feel it and that it is just "road feel" and is perfectly acceptable, but will not let me test drive it with them. Brought it to two private garages that feel it along with a lawyer that feels it. After researching some of the Acura forums a little more this is a common problem with this vehicle and what people have found that fixes this has been replacing the axels/driveshafts which I am sure is not and easy/cheap fix.
> 
> Waiting for Acura Corporate to call me this morning to let me know what they are going to do.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack Glenn



Hey now!!!!


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## campgottagopee (Nov 29, 2010)

darent said:


> their are many parts replacers, but so few mechanics!!



This.........is true


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## tjf67 (Nov 29, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Hey now!!!!



Little late. What you go on vaca or something?


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## skijay (Nov 29, 2010)

When I owned a Saturn I purchased 4 all season tires at the Saturn dealership & they mounted and balanced them.  

I drove on the highway and had a vibration in the steering wheel at highway speeds.  I bring it back and they balanced them again this time with a different machine.  

Vibration still there.  I explained to them that there was no problem prior to the new tires.  They looked at the car and basically was trying to tell me that I may need bushings or something like that.

I decided to take the car to Firestone, where I should have bought the tires in the first place.  They fixed the problem.  The tires were directional and they were mounted incorrectly.  

Once re-installed and balanced the vibration was gone.  If you have a vibration in the steering wheel, after new tires check to see if they are mounted correctly if they can not seem to find and fix the problem.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 1, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Little late. What you go on vaca or something?



Yessir---twas killing deerz


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## hammer (Dec 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> That's a big part of why I do all the work on our cars myself.  Even if I know they're full of crap I don't have patience to deal with the games.


I don't have the talent or the time to do work on my cars...and on newer models there's a lot more to know.  Only thing I can do is consult the internet mechanic before I go to the shop/dealer so that I'm not completely clueless.

Also, I've had good and bad experiences at shops and dealers.  Main complaint I have at dealers is that they charge too much...but for certain types of problems one needs specific make/model expertise so they are the best option.


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## Geoff (Dec 1, 2010)

hammer said:


> I don't have the talent or the time to do work on my cars...and on newer models there's a lot more to know.  Only thing I can do is consult the internet mechanic before I go to the shop/dealer so that I'm not completely clueless.
> 
> Also, I've had good and bad experiences at shops and dealers.  Main complaint I have at dealers is that they charge too much...but for certain types of problems one needs specific make/model expertise so they are the best option.



I own the USB diag cable and software for my VW GTI.   I had the CD-ROM shop manual for my last GTI when it went off warranty.   I keep an eye on the fault codes and do a scan before every oil change.   

It's a poor use of my time to work on the car myself these days even though I know how.   Back in high school, college, and the first year I worked, I did all my own work on my car out of economic necessity.   Clutch, brakes, carb rebuilds, all the tune-up stuff like ignition timing, dwell, valve lifter clearance...   I was really good with a ballpeen hammer and pop rivets fixing rust.


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## WJenness (Dec 1, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I own the USB diag cable and software for my VW GTI.   I had the CD-ROM shop manual for my last GTI when it went off warranty.   I keep an eye on the fault codes and do a scan before every oil change.



Having a Vag-Com cable / software is great.

One of my buddies has one and we use it all the time.

-w


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## bvibert (Dec 1, 2010)

WJenness said:


> Having a Vag-Com cable / software is great.
> 
> One of my buddies has one and we use it all the time.
> 
> -w



I have one for my car too.  It's invaluable when something is acting up.  It even knows that my driver's side heated mirror doesn't work...


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## ALLSKIING (Dec 1, 2010)

Thats why they call them stealerships. The only time one should go is if it is under warranty.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

ALLSKIING said:


> Thats why they call them stealerships. The only time one should go is if it is under warranty.




Right, why would you want to pay for a factory trained tech to look at your car when you could have Darryl do it.....geez


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## ALLSKIING (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Right, why would you want to pay for a factory trained tech to look at your car when you could have Darryl do it.....geez


Well, if you like to be charged twice the price then feel free take it to the dealer. I have a very good Darryl work on my Land Rover and don't have to check the bill twice for over charges.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2010)

I've had good and bad experiences at both dealerships and private repair shops whether regarding service or price.  I trust my local guy a lot, but have also gone to Hyundai plenty for both warranty and non-warranty problems and have had positive experiences.  When I drove an Audi, the dealership work was priced through the roof.  I think thats simple because they think people who drive Audis are rich and can afford to pay the price.

Dealerships actually have more on the line than a private mechanic.  If they screw someone over, then that person won't be buying a vehicle from them.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

ALLSKIING said:


> Well, if you like to be charged twice the price then feel free take it to the dealer. I have a very good Darryl work on my Land Rover and don't have to check the bill twice for over charges.



That's just it, I don't think it is twice the price, or at least where I live it isn't. I just know I'd rather have a guy trained to wrk on my car perform the work rather than some dude looking in a Chiltons Manual trying to figure it out.


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## hammer (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> That's just it, I don't think it is twice the price, or at least where I live it isn't. I just know I'd rather have a guy trained to wrk on my car perform the work rather than some dude looking in a Chiltons Manual trying to figure it out.


I had a Toyota dealer who tried to charge me $500+ for a brake job.  Last time I had a complete brake job done by a local mechanic (with new rotors) the cost was closer to $350...and I know I could have done even cheaper than that.  That same dealer screwed up a simple oil change...stripped the oil pan nut.

On the flip side, the Subaru dealer I last went to for repairs was not too expensive, and they didn't try to push additional services I didn't need.  I had them do the dreaded head gasket replacement and they did a great job.

I tend to think that there are good and bad on both sides.  Dealers have access to more data than independent shops but it doesn't mean that the independents can't do the work nor does it mean that the dealers will have a truly qualified person working on cars.


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## tjf67 (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> That's just it, I don't think it is twice the price, or at least where I live it isn't. I just know I'd rather have a guy trained to wrk on my car perform the work rather than some dude looking in a Chiltons Manual trying to figure it out.



If you noticed he said LandRover.   When I had my Discovery it cost a boat load to bring it into the shop, but they were the ones trained to fix it.  I now drive a Ford and the dealer cost are much more in line.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

hammer said:


> I had a Toyota dealer who tried to charge me $500+ for a brake job.  Last time I had a complete brake job done by a local mechanic (with new rotors) the cost was closer to $350...and I know I could have done even cheaper than that.  That same dealer screwed up a simple oil change...stripped the oil pan nut.
> 
> On the flip side, the Subaru dealer I last went to for repairs was not too expensive, and they didn't try to push additional services I didn't need.  I had them do the dreaded head gasket replacement and they did a great job.
> 
> I tend to think that there are good and bad on both sides.  Dealers have access to more data than independent shops but it doesn't mean that the independents can't do the work nor does it mean that the dealers will have a truly qualified person working on cars.



My guess is the biggest diff is the $$$ between OEM parts and AM....a/m parts really suck, mainly brake parts....squeal, squeek, squawk and just ware out faster if they hold together at all. I've seen sooooo many a/m brake pads seperate with half of a pad left that it would make your head spin.




tjf67 said:


> If you noticed he said LandRover.   When I had my Discovery it cost a boat load to bring it into the shop, but they were the ones trained to fix it.  I now drive a Ford and the dealer cost are much more in line.



Your a wise man TJ


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## bvibert (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> My guess is the biggest diff is the $$$ between OEM parts and AM....a/m parts really suck, mainly brake parts....squeal, squeek, squawk and just ware out faster if they hold together at all. I've seen sooooo many a/m brake pads seperate with half of a pad left that it would make your head spin.



That's a gross generalization.  Saying all aftermarket parts suck is just as bad as saying all dealers suck.  There are plenty of good aftermarket brands that are just as good or better than the parts you get from a dealer, and cheaper.  Just like I'm sure there are plenty of dealers out there who don't try to bend you over when you walk through the door.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2010)

can't say I know really anything about parts.  I do know I've gotten 20K more miles out of my a/m pads and rotors on my Hyundai than I did with the original equipment.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

bvibert said:


> That's a gross generalization.  Saying all aftermarket parts suck is just as bad as saying all dealers suck.  There are plenty of good aftermarket brands that are just as good or better than the parts you get from a dealer, and cheaper.  Just like I'm sure there are plenty of dealers out there who don't try to bend you over when you walk through the door.



Generalization, yes, but imho, it's spot on. I have yet to come across ANY aftermarket parts that are as good as OEM. Believe me, if I could find them I'd use them on my used cars. I've found in "reconing" my used cars that whatever $$$ I save up front with aftermarket parts I lose in the long run with come backs. They're "aftermarket" for a reason.


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## thorski (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Generalization, yes, but imho, it's spot on. I have yet to come across ANY aftermarket parts that are as good as OEM. Believe me, if I could find them I'd use them on my used cars. I've found in "reconing" my used cars that whatever $$$ I save up front with aftermarket parts I lose in the long run with come backs. They're "aftermarket" for a reason.



Camp is right on the money with this. Especially with brake parts.


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## bvibert (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Generalization, yes, but imho, it's spot on. I have yet to come across ANY aftermarket parts that are as good as OEM. Believe me, if I could find them I'd use them on my used cars. I've found in "reconing" my used cars that whatever $$$ I save up front with aftermarket parts I lose in the long run with come backs. They're "aftermarket" for a reason.



You're looking in the wrong spots then.  I've never used a pair of OE brake pads in my life and have never had the problems you describe.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

bvibert said:


> You're looking in the wrong spots then.  I've never used a pair of OE brake pads in my life and have never had the problems you describe.



Your lucky, and good for you!!

You have to remember that I'm talking about 10-15 cars a week that "I" do work on, so most likely that's the difference.


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2010)

Most service advisors at dealers operate on comission. So the higher your bill, the more money they earn. I beleive the parts guys sometimes have the same deal. So this adds another layer to the cost structure of going to the dealer. It's just something to be mindful of. I have nothing against dealers per say.


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## ALLSKIING (Dec 2, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> If you noticed he said LandRover.   When I had my Discovery it cost a boat load to bring it into the shop, but they were the ones trained to fix it.  I now drive a Ford and the dealer cost are much more in line.


Land Rover dealerships are usually way more and its not due to the parts. I'm sure just like everything that there are good dealerships and bad ones but from what I have seen with a lot of different cars that I have had they are usually more and don't always do the job right. Its like anything find a good dealership or a good private shop and your pretty lucky.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2010)

I think my statement regarding brands hold true.  Land Rover is a luxury brand.  I'm sure the dealers feel that if someone can afford to drop 40K+ on a new vehicle, they'll be less concerned with repair costs.  My experience was that for Audi.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Most service advisors at dealers operate on comission. So the higher your bill, the more money they earn. I beleive the parts guys sometimes have the same deal. So this adds another layer to the cost structure of going to the dealer. It's just something to be mindful of. I have nothing against dealers per say.



While this is true, they don't get paid commission on the entire bill nor does is efect how much your bill is. A service writer, if good, will suggest certain repairs or services needed above and beyond what a customer comes in for---"upsell". If a customer chooses to have this work performed the writer does get a VERY SMALL portion of that job only, not the entire bill. It's a very small portion of a writers pay----not enought to even buy lunch for a week, but darn good drinkin' money.


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## Geoff (Dec 2, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I think my statement regarding brands hold true.  Land Rover is a luxury brand.  I'm sure the dealers feel that if someone can afford to drop 40K+ on a new vehicle, they'll be less concerned with repair costs.  My experience was that for Audi.



I couldn't believe it the first time I brought my VW GTI into the Rutland VW/Audi dealer.   Not only was the service terrible but they also price gouged me for it.   I sat there 3 1/2 hours for an oil change and swapping on snow tires on spare rims.   The bill was $150.00.   After a big stink, they knocked the bill down to $90.00.   When I got the email spam from them a couple of days later asking me to rate their service, I wrote a lengthy flame-o-gram.   They followed up with an email and I replied that it would be a cold day in hell before they ever saw me in their dealership again.   If that's a typical Audi dealer, I have no interest in ever owning an Audi.


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## hammer (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> While this is true, they don't get paid commission on the entire bill nor does is effect how much your bill is. A service writer, if good, will suggest certain repairs or services needed above and beyond what a customer comes in for---"upsell". If a customer chooses to have this work performed the writer does get a VERY SMALL portion of that job only, not the entire bill. It's a very small portion of a writers pay----not enought to even buy lunch for a week, but darn good drinkin' money.


The problem is that the suggested services are, in many cases, not needed...

When I'd take my car into the Toyota stealership, they would always recommend an alignment (at close to $100 thank you very much).  When I asked my independent mechanic about this his response was that, as long as there wasn't a tire wear issue and the car didn't pull to one side, an alignment wasn't needed.  Have not had an alignment done since the car's been taken care of by the mechanic and it hasn't been an issue.

Dealers are not alone in this, either.  I took my car into a local chain shop for a simple oil change and they were even worse, practically implying that the car would fall apart unless I got a fuel injector cleaning, new air filter, transmission flush, etc...

While I don't blame anyone for trying to sell services, I don't like it when unneeded services are pushed...


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I couldn't believe it the first time I brought my VW GTI into the Rutland VW/Audi dealer.   Not only was the service terrible but they also price gouged me for it.   I sat there 3 1/2 hours for an oil change and swapping on snow tires on spare rims.   The bill was $150.00.   After a big stink, they knocked the bill down to $90.00.   When I got the email spam from them a couple of days later asking me to rate their service, I wrote a lengthy flame-o-gram.   They followed up with an email and I replied that it would be a cold day in hell before they ever saw me in their dealership again.   If that's a typical Audi dealer, I have no interest in ever owning an Audi.



It's really just human nature.  Businesses profile their customers and charge based upon that.  It's why 2 pieces of pizza cost me $12.27 at Killington on Sunday when I would spend $6 at Ragged for the same quality and size slices......


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> While this is true, they don't get paid commission on the entire bill nor does is efect how much your bill is. A service writer, if good, will suggest certain repairs or services needed above and beyond what a customer comes in for---"upsell". If a customer chooses to have this work performed the writer does get a VERY SMALL portion of that job only, not the entire bill. It's a very small portion of a writers pay----not enought to even buy lunch for a week, but darn good drinkin' money.



Maybe it's different by dealer or by brand. I talked to a guy who used to run the parts or service counter at BMW dealer. They paid him min wage...plus comission. This was a number of years ago, but he claimed he pulled in about $50k a year. Certaintly more than min wage was working 40 hours a week at the time.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

hammer said:


> The problem is that the suggested services are, in many cases, not needed...
> 
> When I'd take my car into the Toyota stealership, they would always recommend an alignment (at close to $100 thank you very much).  When I asked my independent mechanic about this his response was that, as long as there wasn't a tire wear issue and the car didn't pull to one side, an alignment wasn't needed.  Have not had an alignment done since the car's been taken care of by the mechanic and it hasn't been an issue.
> 
> ...



Totally agree with what you are saying. If any of our counter guys were caught doing anything like that, well, it would be a very short conversation.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 2, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Maybe it's different by dealer or by brand. I talked to a guy who used to run the parts or service counter at BMW dealer. They paid him min wage...plus comission. This was a number of years ago, but he claimed he pulled in about $50k a year. Certaintly more than min wage was working 40 hours a week at the time.



Oh, I'm sure it is....the commission based counter person is real old school in this biz, hell, even commissioned sales is going away---glad I don't sell anymore;-)


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## Geoff (Dec 3, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> It's really just human nature.  Businesses profile their customers and charge based upon that.  It's why 2 pieces of pizza cost me $12.27 at Killington on Sunday when I would spend $6 at Ragged for the same quality and size slices......



So somebody buying a $15,000 VW Jetta in Rutland is paying $90.00 for an oil change at the dealer?   I doubt it.   That pricing just pushes the business elsewhere.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2010)

Geoff said:


> So somebody buying a $15,000 VW Jetta in Rutland is paying $90.00 for an oil change at the dealer?   I doubt it.   That pricing just pushes the business elsewhere.



I'm not certain why they would charge $90, but would suspect that because they sell premium cars (Audi) in addition to VW and Subaru, perhaps they feel they have wealthier clientele who aren't as concerned with price.


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## o3jeff (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't mind someone making a few dollars to keep the lights on, but $90 an oil change is a pretty good screwing even if they're using synthetic oil.


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## hammer (Dec 3, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> I don't mind someone making a few dollars to keep the lights on, but $90 an oil change is a pretty good screwing even if they're using synthetic oil.


I wouldn't call it a screwing if it were full synthetic...high, yes, but not obscene.

Thinking about this makes me wonder if I should do my own oil changes...but then there's the hassle of getting the right tools, crawling underneath the car, getting the parts off to get to the oil pan and/or filter, and storing the oil until I can dispose of it on the one day that my town has hazardous waste disposal.


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## bvibert (Dec 3, 2010)

hammer said:


> I wouldn't call it a screwing if it were full synthetic...high, yes, but not obscene.
> 
> Thinking about this makes me wonder if I should do my own oil changes...but then there's the hassle of getting the right tools, crawling underneath the car, getting the parts off to get to the oil pan and/or filter, and storing the oil until I can dispose of it on the one day that my town has hazardous waste disposal.



A lot of parts stores will take used oil, at least around here.  Also, some shops heat with used oil in the winter, so they'll take it too sometimes.


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## WJenness (Dec 3, 2010)

hammer said:


> I wouldn't call it a screwing if it were full synthetic...high, yes, but not obscene.
> 
> Thinking about this makes me wonder if I should do my own oil changes...but then there's the hassle of getting the right tools, crawling underneath the car, getting the parts off to get to the oil pan and/or filter, and storing the oil until I can dispose of it on the one day that my town has hazardous waste disposal.



At least in MA, any store that sells motor oil is required by law to accept used motor oil back from customers...

-w


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 3, 2010)

taking the audi in on Tues, white smoke coming from exhaust (not just cold air/moisture smoke)

I'm thinking it either a turbo thats gone or a head gasket leaking coolent...dont know, i'm no car expert..


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## campgottagopee (Dec 3, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> taking the audi in on Tues, white smoke coming from exhaust (not just cold air/moisture smoke)
> 
> I'm thinking it either a turbo thats gone or a head gasket leaking coolent...dont know, i'm no car expert..



H-gasket would be my guess.....if your turbo was gone you'd know it for sure


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 3, 2010)

thats what i'm thinking too...the exhaust has that coolant smell.....argh!!!!  was heavy this am, but nothing this afternoon....


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## ALLSKIING (Dec 3, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> thats what i'm thinking too...the exhaust has that coolant smell.....argh!!!!  was heavy this am, but nothing this afternoon....


If your smelling coolant then thats what it is...


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## Geoff (Dec 4, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> taking the audi in on Tues, white smoke coming from exhaust (not just cold air/moisture smoke)
> 
> I'm thinking it either a turbo thats gone or a head gasket leaking coolent...dont know, i'm no car expert..



Have you reprogrammed the engine control unit to screw with the boost on the turbo?   That's the main cause for cylinder head gasket failure in those engines.   The boy racers are constantly replacing blown head gaskets.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 4, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Have you reprogrammed the engine control unit to screw with the boost on the turbo?   That's the main cause for cylinder head gasket failure in those engines.   The boy racers are constantly replacing blown head gaskets.



I'm getting on over my head with this convesation, but when they do that are they programming it to hold the gate open longer in the turbo???


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## darent (Dec 4, 2010)

hammer said:


> I wouldn't call it a screwing if it were full synthetic...high, yes, but not obscene.
> 
> Thinking about this makes me wonder if I should do my own oil changes...but then there's the hassle of getting the right tools, crawling underneath the car, getting the parts off to get to the oil pan and/or filter, and storing the oil until I can dispose of it on the one day that my town has hazardous waste disposal.



if they sell oil they have to take it back by law in a lot of states, also the suggestion that a lot of shops heat with used oil is a good source for free disposal


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## darent (Dec 4, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> I'm getting on over my head with this convesation, but when they do that are they programming it to hold the gate open longer in the turbo???



more boost, they raise the pressure of the boost


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## Glenn (Dec 5, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> thats what i'm thinking too...the exhaust has that coolant smell.....argh!!!!  was heavy this am, but nothing this afternoon....



A few easy checks. Is the coolant low? If so, they may indiate and issue. 

After you drive the car around a bit, check the dipstick. If the oil is a bit milky, could be a bad headgasket. 

Our 3.0 blows a lot of condensation out the pipes. I don't drive the car every day and a few times, it surprised me looking in the rearview. Business as usual though.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 8, 2010)

oil and coolant levels are fine...oil is not milky....odd smell though


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## Glenn (Dec 8, 2010)

Hmmm. May be a hose leak somewhere, and the HVAC intake pulls the smell into the cabin.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 9, 2010)

mechanic just called..2 issues

-one of the coolant temp sensors is bad making it run too rich on start up, thus the white smoke
-crank position sensor is bad, thus some of the hard start ups i've been having

parts on order, will be fixed tomorrow.....could have been alot worse news!!


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## jaytrem (Dec 9, 2010)

hammer said:


> and storing the oil until I can dispose of it on the one day that my town has hazardous waste disposal.



Just in case anybody is interested, most AutoZone stores will recycle your used motor oil.  My local mechanic also accepts used motor oil, I think they recently installed a heating system that run on it.


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## WJenness (Dec 9, 2010)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> mechanic just called..2 issues
> 
> -one of the coolant temp sensors is bad making it run too rich on start up, thus the white smoke
> -crank position sensor is bad, thus some of the hard start ups i've been having
> ...



Those Coolant Temp Sensors ALWAYS go bad it seems...

Crank position sensor, first I've heard of that one going...

-w


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 9, 2010)

knock on wood, its a 2002 and this is first issue i've had (and i dont really feel its an issue) at 90K and all i've had is a few bad sensors...i'll take it..


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## Glenn (Dec 9, 2010)

Way better than a head gasket! Glad it worked out to be the cheaper option.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 10, 2010)

2 sensors and $600 later....shes all good


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