# Except for Killington-very weak effort to get open



## granite (Nov 8, 2019)

I've been checking the Wildcat website snow report and live web daily.  It seems they are not making an all out snowmaking assault to open, you can hardly see any snow making going on.  They are very slow to update their web site too.

Over at Cannon, the last to open and the first to close, they announced opening day the Saturday after Thanksgiving.  In the past I believe they always opened on Friday after Thanksgiving.  To make matters worse, they will then close Mon-Thurs before re-opening.  I can't imagine this, what if there's a two foot dump and they are closed?

The Mount Snow web site is bragging about the most powerful snow making system in the East, but don't plan on opening anytime soon.  Little to no info at Okemo, Bretton Woods or Loon.  In the past, Bretton Woods made an all out effort to open early-not so anymore.

Killington the big winner again open everyday since Sunday.  Sunday River in second again opening tomorrow-Friday.

Overall, disappointed that Mount Snow-Okemo-Wildcat opening day is a long way off, since I have an Epic pass this year.


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## gregnye (Nov 8, 2019)

granite said:


> Overall, disappointed that Mount Snow-Okemo-Wildcat opening day is a long way off, since I have an Epic pass this year.



Vail hasn't been known to open their resorts early. In the age of superpasses it really doesn't matter to open early-->people have already spent their money on prepurchasing passes. The additional walk-up tickets profits are likely minimal.


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## andrec10 (Nov 8, 2019)

Well, Hunter is making snow on HBK and Belt parkway at the same time. That has not happened since Orville and Izzy were alive. I have to say, Vail must be behind that one!


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## mbedle (Nov 8, 2019)

Get use to it, as I would venture to guess that next year most of the Vail resorts will have hard opening dates around the 3rd weekend in November. Maybe you will get lucky and they will push Mount Snow a little earlier.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 8, 2019)

Killington already won the race to open first, it's not like they stand to gain much by rushing to open this weekend.   Shouldn't really come as a surprise either, especially given Vail's track record


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## WWF-VT (Nov 8, 2019)

gregnye said:


> Vail hasn't been known to open their resorts early. In the age of superpasses it really doesn't matter to open early-->people have already spent their money on prepurchasing passes. The additional walk-up tickets profits are likely minimal.



There is no profit with early season walk-up tickets


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## drjeff (Nov 8, 2019)

You've got a good weather window right now for about 48-60 hours.

Sunday it warms up a bit, some "questionable" weather moves in for Monday, then back to the cold all the way as it looks like through next weekend, when a bunch of resorts will open up, and likely with top to bottom products and probably even on a couple of routes.

I agree that I would of loved to use my Epic pass at Mount Snow this weekend. They probably will have plenty of snow down, where they're making snow right no to get open for Sunday. It's a business though, and the reality is that by holding off until next Friday, the opening day product is going to be far superior and far more numerous than something this Sunday would of been.

Their (Mount Snow's) snowmaking system is as good as any there is. However, even the best snowmaking system still needs well over 24 hrs, if not more like 48 hours, to put down enough product to go from basically bare ground to a fully connected trail that is ready for the public, and this weather window we have now arrived maybe 18 hours too late to be able to pull it off for a Saturday opening. Then it just becomes a business decision about opening on a Sunday in early November verses holding off 5 days and getting a Friday opening with more terrain available


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## dgcarbs (Nov 8, 2019)

https://www.newscentermaine.com/article/sports/outdoors/new-england-ski-areas-filling-jobs-with-aggressive-recruiting/97-6898bf8f-cb64-48fa-b1d2-2d8593dca10e

With the labor market for seasonal labor getting tougher for ski areas, as well as ever increasing energy prices, its not really surprising to see ski areas back off from trying to push for the earliest possible opening.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Their (Mount Snow's) snowmaking system is as good as any there is. However, even the best snowmaking system still needs well over 24 hrs, if not more like 48 hours, to put down enough product to go from basically bare ground to a fully connected trail that is ready for the public, and this weather window we have now arrived maybe 18 hours too late to be able to pull it off for a Saturday opening. Then it just becomes a business decision about opening on a Sunday in early November verses holding off 5 days and getting a Friday opening with more terrain available



I think this statement sums it up best. There are a lot of people with unrealistic expectations here. The argument that "well K has been open so why can't others get open yet" is a silly one too. K has an ideal setup to allow them to open a few hundred feet of vertical near the summit where you have the best snowmaking temps.


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## steve22 (Nov 8, 2019)

granite said:


> I've been checking the Wildcat website snow report and live web daily.  It seems they are not making an all out snowmaking assault to open, you can hardly see any snow making going on.  They are very slow to update their web site too.
> 
> Over at Cannon, the last to open and the first to close, they announced opening day the Saturday after Thanksgiving.  In the past I believe they always opened on Friday after Thanksgiving.  To make matters worse, they will then close Mon-Thurs before re-opening.  I can't imagine this, what if there's a two foot dump and they are closed?
> 
> ...




Cannon has announced the Saturday before Thanksgiving...Nov 23rd. Which would seem to be a week early for them. And Bretton has announced Thanksgiving weekend which does seem late. I'm interested to see what thy offer at the Boson Ski Expo next week. They usually have some cheap multipacks but they have a new gondola and lodge to pay for, with no shortage of customers.


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## granite (Nov 8, 2019)

Sorry Cannon, my mistake.  Looks like you could be open before some of the others.  I usually have a Cannon pass, will miss you most of this winter, but will make it up a few times on your excellent discount days.


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## ghughes20 (Nov 8, 2019)

Stratton is blowing, and I have to think pretty much everyone will make snow thru the weekend and start building their base.  Stratton's website is still predicting an open on the 23rd.  If the cold temps stick around, they should have a strong opening with lots options top to bottom.  

If you can't open first, you might as well open strong.


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## Edd (Nov 8, 2019)

granite said:


> Overall, disappointed that Mount Snow-Okemo-Wildcat opening day is a long way off, since I have an Epic pass this year.



I’m no longer interested in early season offerings, barring freak early season pow. But, for those who are, the Ikon kinda kills it with both Kmart and SR on the pass.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2019)

granite said:


> I've been checking the Wildcat website snow report and live web daily.  It seems they are not making an all out snowmaking assault to open, you can hardly see any snow making going on.  They are very slow to update their web site too.
> 
> Over at Cannon, the last to open and the first to close, they announced opening day the Saturday after Thanksgiving.  In the past I believe they always opened on Friday after Thanksgiving.  To make matters worse, they will then close Mon-Thurs before re-opening.  I can't imagine this, what if there's a two foot dump and they are closed?
> 
> ...


Long way off?  I think it's pretty certain both Cat and Snow will open by next weekend. Not sure on Okemo.

Bretton Woods is blasting right now. They can open that first trail with about 6-8" base.  Wouldn't be surprised if they open tomorrow or Sunday. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## raisingarizona (Nov 8, 2019)

There probably isn’t a whole lot of money there for a bunch of ski areas to be open before Thanksgiving. Killington has a niche there for sure but not a lot of incentive left for everyone else. Hunter I get though, there a lot closer to the tri-state market than Killington.


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## FBGM (Nov 8, 2019)

Er body looking smart in hur. For once. 

Companies see no profits. They no open. Super tricky concepts to grasp but we are slowly understanding and getting it. Except for OP


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## kbroderick (Nov 8, 2019)

Air temps are only part of the equation, too. Even if you can make snow at 38 degrees wet bulb (which is what I was told some years ago, researching an eighth-grade science presentation), if the ground is at 45 degrees, that snow isn't staying frozen very long after landing. Most places are (understandably) reluctant to spend a lot of money pushing water up the hill and out of snowguns only to watch it come back down the hill after it melts. 

Killington also has an elevation advantage relative to most New England ski areas, and even a thousand feet can make quite a difference at marginal temps. Now that the weather pattern has now changed and I'd expect to see a lot more effort to produce snow.


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## FBGM (Nov 8, 2019)

kbroderick said:


> Air temps are only part of the equation, too. Even if you can make snow at 38 degrees wet bulb (which is what I was told some years ago, researching an eighth-grade science presentation), if the ground is at 45 degrees, that snow isn't staying frozen very long after landing. Most places are (understandably) reluctant to spend a lot of money pushing water up the hill and out of snowguns only to watch it come back down the hill after it melts.
> 
> Killington also has an elevation advantage relative to most New England ski areas, and even a thousand feet can make quite a difference at marginal temps. Now that the weather pattern has now changed and I'd expect to see a lot more effort to produce snow.



I heard most mountain operation directors base their decisions of that 8th grade project of yours.


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## kbroderick (Nov 8, 2019)

FBGM said:


> I heard most mountain operation directors base their decisions of that 8th grade project of yours.



It was a pretty good eighth-grade project.


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## abc (Nov 8, 2019)

This year's Thanksgiving is late. (nearly bought flights for the wrong week!  )

So expect most mountains open as "usual", which is a few days later than most years, but just right time for Thanksgiving.


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## Glenn (Nov 8, 2019)

abc said:


> This year's Thanksgiving is late. (nearly bought flights for the wrong week!  )
> 
> So expect most mountains open as "usual", which is a few days later than most years, but just right time for Thanksgiving.



I kept thinking the mountains in SoVT were opening early with a tentative 11/23 first chair date. Then I realized Thanksgiving was later this year.


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## kingslug (Nov 8, 2019)

I'd rather ski on something good than waste time and money on marginal. I know..we all can't wait to get out there..


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## granite (Nov 8, 2019)

Oh yea, now this is what I'm talking about.  Bretton Woods blasting it out, the new gondola spinning and 7 inches of snow.  They look like they could open tomorrow-Saturday.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2019)

granite said:


> I've been checking the Wildcat website snow report and live web daily.  It seems they are not making an all out snowmaking assault to open, you can hardly see any snow making going on.  They are very slow to update their web site too.
> 
> [....]
> 
> Overall, disappointed that Mount Snow-Okemo-Wildcat opening day is a long way off, since I have an Epic pass this year.



That's Vail's MO.  Welcome to the Epic family.


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## Smellytele (Nov 9, 2019)

Wildcat is performing as they usually do. They blew in upper lynx and said they finished up and then they started on middle and lower lynx and were blowing at the base. Nothing less than they usually do.


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## crazy (Nov 9, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Wildcat is performing as they usually do. They blew in upper lynx and said they finished up and then they started on middle and lower lynx and were blowing at the base. Nothing less than they usually do.



Last year was truly an exception with the early season snowfall that they got. They only opened early because they had a lot of natural snow to augment the man made stuff.


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## thebigo (Nov 9, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> There is no profit with early season walk-up tickets



Maybe but I have assume there is profit in season passes, seasonal programs, booze, pizza and lodging. 

With the notable exception of condo owners, people are not tied to a mountain and the ikon mountains are destroying epic early season. I suspect my family will spend more this year on early season k/sr tickets, peak passes and k spring pass than on a ragged/ikon combo. At some point we need to run the numbers and make a decision on next year.


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## slatham (Nov 9, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I think this statement sums it up best. There are a lot of people with unrealistic expectations here. The argument that "well K has been open so why can't others get open yet" is a silly one too. K has an ideal setup to allow them to open a few hundred feet of vertical near the summit where you have the best snowmaking temps.



And thus far this fall this elevation advantage has paid off in spades. Others areas can’t compete.

But now it’s cold, and this week it is mid winter cold. Every ski area north of Hunter can open next weekend, IF they chose to.


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## So Inclined (Nov 9, 2019)

slatham said:


> Every ski area north of Hunter can open next weekend, IF they chose to.



I'd put a dollar down on them (Hunter) kicking off next weekend, too.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Maybe but I have assume there is profit in season passes, seasonal programs, booze, pizza and lodging.
> 
> With the notable exception of condo owners, people are not tied to a mountain and the ikon mountains are destroying epic early season. I suspect my family will spend more this year on early season k/sr tickets, peak passes and k spring pass than on a ragged/ikon combo. At some point we need to run the numbers and make a decision on next year.



Vail's accountants set the season to open on a certain date and close on a certain date, regardless of weather and conditions.  That's how they plan to maximize revenue.

Park City folks were pretty pissed last season when they closed in early-April with plenty-o-snow.  Vail took the money and ran.  Unfortunately, that is what to expect  when you buy a "discounted" Epic Pass, at least in their POV.


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## crazy (Nov 9, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Maybe but I have assume there is profit in season passes, seasonal programs, booze, pizza and lodging.
> 
> With the notable exception of condo owners, people are not tied to a mountain and the ikon mountains are destroying epic early season. I suspect my family will spend more this year on early season k/sr tickets, peak passes and k spring pass than on a ragged/ikon combo. At some point we need to run the numbers and make a decision on next year.



Season passes is where it can get important to open early or close late. Look how A Basin leaving the Epic Pass affected Vail in Colorado: Vail was forced to open up Keystone early, and is now planning on closing Breck late. I'm sure that they lose money on the days on the edges of the season, but by doing so they keep people on the Vail pass products.

The question is: do skiers on the east coast also consider early openings and late closing when deciding who to buy their pass from? That will determine how Vail plays this game. 

While the Ikon pass clearly wins the early opening game with Killington and Sunday River, keep in mind that even many who do have the Ikon Pass are reluctant to use one of their 5 or 7 days during the early season. This isn't the case with Vail's unlimited days for its mountains.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 9, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Wildcat is performing as they usually do. They blew in upper lynx and said they finished up and then they started on middle and lower lynx and were blowing at the base. Nothing less than they usually do.


yup

last 15 years opening days

10/27
11/11
11/24
11/25
11/9
11/23
11/22
12/18
12/11
12/11
11/28
11/30
12/8
10/28 - freak 4 foot storm, closed again after a few days
12/8

People forget that even with the snowmaking upgrade five years ago, they don't really have the capacity to blow a full trail top to bottom.  They also have about the smallest snowmaking reservoir in New England.  It refills pretty quick though.

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## urungus (Nov 9, 2019)

crazy said:


> keep in mind that even many who do have the Ikon Pass are reluctant to use one of their 5 or 7 days during the early season. This isn't the case with Vail's unlimited days for its mountains.



Killington already has a spring pass, they should come out with a fall ”early bird” pass that is good from opening until the day before Thanksgiving.  And a fall + spring pass.


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## spiderpig (Nov 9, 2019)

Glenn said:


> I kept thinking the mountains in SoVT were opening early with a tentative 11/23 first chair date. Then I realized Thanksgiving was later this year.



Wouldn't you have thought they were opening late in that case?


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## thebigo (Nov 9, 2019)

urungus said:


> Killington already has a spring pass, they should come out with a fall ”early bird” pass that is good from opening until the day before Thanksgiving.  And a fall + spring pass.



I would first in line for a k blackout pass but there are capacity issues early season. With the exception of free t shirt day in june, there are no spring issues with capacity. Killington knows they offer a premium service early season and expect you to pay for it. 

Sr offered an early season pass at one point, only lasted one season if I recollect.


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## drjeff (Nov 9, 2019)

urungus said:


> Killington already has a spring pass, they should come out with a fall ”early bird” pass that is good from opening until the day before Thanksgiving.  And a fall + spring pass.


In the modern pass era, where the IKON holders now have the option of using their limited K days from day 1 of the season, why would K want to potentially put more people on the limited acreage than they already have now? 

The Spring market demand falls off quickly as "the masses" start to engage in other, non ski activities. The Fall market is a whole different animal with lots of pent up demand, and not a bunch of other family sports obligations going on

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## thebigo (Nov 9, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> yup
> 
> last 15 years opening days
> 
> ...



Solution is a new catapult chair but it will never happen.

That october weekend in 2005 was incredible, one of my best in 40 years on skis.


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## Rogman (Nov 10, 2019)

Feel bad for the Mt Snow peeps. Previous years they'd make top notch early season effort. Yesterday from Killington Peak it was clear there was a lot more snow on the north face of Stratton than Mt Snow. I get that its a business, but Vail may need to learn the ways of the locals. POWDR had to, and after some serious missteps, have become excellent stewards of the mountain.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2019)

good times at Killington yesterday

great northern was open from the start so no hike down

good snow on upper dipper and east fall all day. rime got a bit slick. reason was generally too crowded with park kids to bother skiing the edges of it. 

dj at the bottom of the chair, spinning music that was just all over the place. Dead, stones, weird early 90s corny stuff, some electronic music. weird mix but nice to have music and a party atmosphere. outdoor grill set up for burgers and dogs.

lines were long, but it’s a the first Saturday of the season, nothing else in the state is open, it’s a beautiful day, and it snowed 2 days ago. lots of people complaining about the lines and crowds, and it’s like “hey man you’re a part of the line and crowd you’re complaining about, what did you expect, just enjoy the day and relax”

new k-1 parking and lodge situation is a bit of a pain, but that’s the price of progress. I shudder at the thought of the World Cup crowd amongst this infrastructure. Dressing and undressing in the lodge is less attractive now since you need to trudge across the snow to get to the parking lot. Will be easier this year to dress in car and then just walk straight to lift. I’ll be parking at Bear a lot.

We stopped at basin sports and got my girlfriend set up with boots, worked with Steve. She’s a true beginner in her 2nd season and last year her seasonal rentals gave her hell. i think this was an investment in her comfort that will have a big ROI for me

Welcome back to ski season.


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## abc (Nov 10, 2019)

spiderpig said:


> Wouldn't you have thought they were opening late in that case?


Good long term forecast?

Ive never understood opening in October! But it happens, when the weather allows it. 

So my guess is they expect people coming!

Someone mention no other competing activities. I quite agree. I find myself in that camp. Too cold to bike (I mean ENJOY biking). I wouldn’t pay to ski, as the skier/inch-of-snow too high. But now I have a pass, it changes the calculation.


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## FBGM (Nov 10, 2019)

Rogman said:


> Feel bad for the Mt Snow peeps. Previous years they'd make top notch early season effort. Yesterday from Killington Peak it was clear there was a lot more snow on the north face of Stratton than Mt Snow. I get that its a business, but Vail may need to learn the ways of the locals. POWDR had to, and after some serious missteps, have become excellent stewards of the mountain.



You said it. Vail doesn’t care about locals. Vail cares about profit and bottom line. Mount Snow is finally going to get run like a real resort. Might take many years before it looks like one. But get used to change it’s here. And for the better.


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## dblskifanatic (Nov 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> That's Vail's MO.  Welcome to the Epic family.



Funny out here Vail is going after the early and late season by opening Keystone early and closing Break later.  My guess, they will never compete with Killington but I bet they will find the right opportunity.  This their first go around with these resorts.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> You said it. Vail doesn’t care about locals. Vail cares about profit and bottom line. Mount Snow is finally going to get run like a real resort. Might take many years before it looks like one. But get used to change it’s here. And for the better.


Maybe?

Thus far in the East, Vail has a small new parking lot at Stowe to their credit for capital improvements.  Really haven't done or announced anything other than that so far at their Northeast resorts.  

How soon until you think they bury the snowmaking pipes at all the mountains?  That's very important ya know. 

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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2019)

dblskifanatic said:


> Funny out here Vail is going after the early and late season by opening Keystone early and closing Break later.  My guess, they will never compete with Killington but I bet they will find the right opportunity.  This their first go around with these resorts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That’s a patchwork solution after a-basin told vail to pound sand. a long season was always basin’s culture, vail reaped the rewards


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## FBGM (Nov 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe?
> 
> Thus far in the East, Vail has a small new parking lot at Stowe to their credit for capital improvements.  Really haven't done or announced anything other than that so far at their Northeast resorts.
> 
> ...



They should. Looks like shit. Don’t see that garbage anywhere out west. Liability as well. Can’t go back and burry but should from here out. You really got me on that one. What a zinger.


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## MikeDeJ (Nov 10, 2019)

As a passholder for years at Mt Snow they generally dont open till the week before Thanksgiving or Thanksgiving week.  The last season or two they did open earlier, it may have been more about showing off the new snowmaking system.  I think it was the right call to wait until next weekend to open.  It would have been marginal this weekend, they would have had to push out the snow too soon and dont have alot at the base.  Not a fan of walking and really want top to bottom.  Im not sure Vail had a lot to do with them waiting a week, my son works there and said really nothing has changed.  

Not opening had more to do with the cold front a day too late.  I do like that when they open they will be open 7 days a week to start (as of now), I'm sure Vail had something to do with this.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> They should. Looks like shit. Don’t see that garbage anywhere out west. Liability as well. Can’t go back and burry but should from here out. You really got me on that one. What a zinger.


You are quite literally the only person in my 35 years of skiing that I've ever heard/read complain about above ground snowmaking pipe.  Hopefully Vail saves the day and alleviates your pipe fear and suffering.  

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## machski (Nov 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> You said it. Vail doesn’t care about locals. Vail cares about profit and bottom line. Mount Snow is finally going to get run like a real resort. Might take many years before it looks like one. But get used to change it’s here. And for the better.


And that shows in the East where Stowe dropped to #18 on Ski's reader survey.  I suppose Mount Snow will be stopping in near future too.  Yup, Vail runs a great ship compared to before!

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## FBGM (Nov 10, 2019)

machski said:


> And that shows in the East where Stowe dropped to #18 on Ski's reader survey.  I suppose Mount Snow will be stopping in near future too.  Yup, Vail runs a great ship compared to before!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Those rankings mean nothing, fyi. 

And if you’re seriously trying to compare Peak Resorts leadership to Vail then lol. You’re on crack.


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## The Sneak (Nov 10, 2019)

I am pretty sure I skied Mount Snow on Veteran’s day in the 90s. Maybe 1993? I def skied Jiminy on Veteran’s Day 1992, half a trail in the pouring rain.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Those rankings mean nothing, fyi.
> 
> And if you’re seriously trying to compare Peak Resorts leadership to Vail then lol. You’re on crack.



True, but seeing that Stowe dropped that far was pretty interesting.  I never would have guessed that.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> They should. Looks like shit. Don’t see that garbage anywhere out west. Liability as well. Can’t go back and burry but should from here out. You really got me on that one. What a zinger.



A lot of western mountains have limited snowmaking when compared to the east.  And most of them are relatively new to snowmaking and have adopted systems with fan guns that only require electricity and water.  Thus only one line is needed.  Additionally, we have this thing called avalanche out here that would wipe out a lot of lines if they sat above ground.

And "burry" a line?


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## machski (Nov 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Those rankings mean nothing, fyi.
> 
> And if you’re seriously trying to compare Peak Resorts leadership to Vail then lol. You’re on crack.


They are not the end all, be all.  But when a resort like Stowe drops that far, it should cause several eyebrows to be raised and question why.  Could it be the day ticket price is ridiculously high for having pretty much ZERO investment in improvements to date from Vail?  Probably a good bet.

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## crazy (Nov 10, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> good times at Killington yesterday
> lines were long, but it’s a the first Saturday of the season, nothing else in the state is open, it’s a beautiful day, and it snowed 2 days ago. lots of people complaining about the lines and crowds, and it’s like “hey man you’re a part of the line and crowd you’re complaining about, what did you expect, just enjoy the day and relax”



That's a good bit of wisdom. When I start to get sick of crowds, I try and remind myself: I am the crowd. When you start to get annoyed by all of the "other people" crowding the lines or the slopes, realize that you are one of those "other people" to every other person besides yourself. And if you are ever wondering why there are so many people in line, ask yourself why you're in line, and that might be your answer.


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## crazy (Nov 10, 2019)

MikeDeJ said:


> Im not sure Vail had a lot to do with them waiting a week, my son works there and said really nothing has changed.



My impression is that Vail tends to be a hand-off owner for the first year of a resort's operation so that they can observe how the mountain is run, and then plan on making changes for the second year. That was their model at Stowe and Okemo. I kind of doubt that Vail told Mount Snow to open later than local management wanted to. Remember that the acquisition didn't close very long ago. Vail doesn't have any experience with Mount Snow, they need to rely on the existing management and staff to learn the ins and outs.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2019)

machski said:


> They are not the end all, be all.  But when a resort like Stowe drops that far, it should cause several eyebrows to be raised and question why.  Could it be the day ticket price is ridiculously high for having pretty much ZERO investment in improvements to date from Vail?  Probably a good bet.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


Those issues yes, plus the insane traffic too and from the resort that the added pass base has caused.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## urungus (Nov 10, 2019)

Killington opening advanced terrain tomorrow.  Does “Downdraft - Headwall + Downdraft - Upper” mean “From the top of the gondola to Great Northern” ?


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## Zand (Nov 10, 2019)

Yes...Downdraft Headwall is the steep, often frozen solid section that drops off the peak lodge to High Traverse. "Upper" Downdraft shouldn't count as a separate trail as its only a few hundred more feet down to Great Northern and rather uninteresting.

This is the best time of the season to ski the Headwall until soft spring days. After it gets rained on once, bring your ice skates.

For the record, Killington splits Downdraft, which really isnt very long, into 4 sections lol.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 11, 2019)

crazy said:


> My impression is that Vail tends to be a hand-off owner for the first year of a resort's operation so that they can observe how the mountain is run, and then plan on making changes for the second year. That was their model at Stowe and Okemo. I kind of doubt that Vail told Mount Snow to open later than local management wanted to. Remember that the acquisition didn't close very long ago. Vail doesn't have any experience with Mount Snow, they need to rely on the existing management and staff to learn the ins and outs.




The same thing happened last year Pre-Vail.  Mount Snow opened earlier than normal but after Killington.   Mount Snow might have a bigger snowmaking system, but they are at a huge disadvantage compared to Killington in terms of temps, elevation and being able to utilize old snowmaking tech that does better in warmer temps.   Mount Snow not opening this past weekend probably had little to do with Vail and everything to do with the weather


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## MikeDeJ (Nov 11, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> The same thing happened last year Pre-Vail.  Mount Snow opened earlier than normal but after Killington.   Mount Snow might have a bigger snowmaking system, but they are at a huge disadvantage compared to Killington in terms of temps, elevation and being able to utilize old snowmaking tech that does better in warmer temps.   Mount Snow not opening this past weekend probably had little to do with Vail and everything to do with the weather



100% agree


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## puckoach (Nov 11, 2019)

Temperature of snow making water a factor too.

Which changes slower, than ground temp.


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## mister moose (Nov 11, 2019)

Zand said:


> Yes...Downdraft Headwall is the steep, often frozen solid section that drops off the peak lodge to High Traverse. "Upper" Downdraft shouldn't count as a separate trail as its only a few hundred more feet down to Great Northern and rather uninteresting.
> 
> This is the best time of the season to ski the Headwall until soft spring days. After it gets rained on once, bring your ice skates.
> 
> For the record, Killington splits Downdraft, which really isnt very long, into 4 sections lol.



The section from High Traverse to GN is where they hold Loaded Rail Turkey Jam (Or whatever its called) and they break that out as a separate segment.  All 4 segments open and close independently as weather and conditions dictate.  Lower gets snowmaking last.  The headwall closes frequently.  So it actually is handy to know which segments are open, like the 3 on Superstar.  Counting that as 4 trails though is embarrassing.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 11, 2019)

mister moose said:


> The section from High Traverse to GN is where they hold Loaded Rail Turkey Jam (Or whatever its called) and they break that out as a separate segment.  All 4 segments open and close independently as weather and conditions dictate.  Lower gets snowmaking last.  The headwall closes frequently.  So it actually is handy to know which segments are open, like the 3 on Superstar.  Counting that as 4 trails though is embarrassing.



Pretty much why I miss their Interactive Trail Map. Especially early season when all these little bits are opening up one at a time, it's hard to envision how much actual skiable terrain there is.


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## kbroderick (Nov 11, 2019)

mister moose said:


> The section from High Traverse to GN is where they hold Loaded Rail Turkey Jam (Or whatever its called) and they break that out as a separate segment.  All 4 segments open and close independently as weather and conditions dictate.  Lower gets snowmaking last.  The headwall closes frequently.  So it actually is handy to know which segments are open, like the 3 on Superstar.  Counting that as 4 trails though is embarrassing.



+1 on that.

I thought it was incredibly silly how many named segments Sunday River had during some of the "add trail count without cutting trees" years until I worked patrol elsewhere for a couple of years. Having shorter named segments can be super-helpful in trying to locate a reported incident (assuming, of course, that the reporter actually knows where said incident occurred), as well as for calling for additional help.

So yes, it would be nice if there were separate "run" vs "trail" stats—e.g. "three top-to-bottom runs, 12 trails open"—but there are operational reasons beyond trail-count numbers to split things up into shorter sections. I also think it would be more informative to report new snow as "dusting", "buckles", "mid-boot", "mid-shin", or "too deep, just stay home and leave it to us", as accurate snow reporting is damn near impossible once wind enters the picture, but then we'd probably see a bunch of really short people get hired as snow reporters.


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## mbedle (Nov 11, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Those issues yes, plus the insane traffic too and from the resort that the added pass base has caused.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I don't believe that day pass prices are affecting the outcome of the ski mag survey. I highly doubt that a large percentage of voters on a skiing specific website are paying daily lift ticket window rates. I will say that the overall hatred of Vail Resorts most likely had something to do with it (whether realized or not). I agree 100 percent DH, that the traffic and parking issue has created some ill feelings towards Stowe (three Saturdays this past season they ran out of parking completely and turned people away).  Their health and safety program might also have a lot to do with it. It might be me, but last year seem to have a rather high amount of lift closures. And don't forget their worthless snow reports. It took a lot of complaining just to get Scott to start doing the snow phone reports again.


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## kingslug (Nov 11, 2019)

The only way to deal with Stowe parking is to get there very early..which I know id hard for those with kids. Their snow reporting is a joke. I have never heard a good thing said by anyone up there about Vail. But..they really haven't done anything yet..


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## mbedle (Nov 11, 2019)

kingslug said:


> The only way to deal with Stowe parking is to get there very early..which I know id hard for those with kids. Their snow reporting is a joke. I have never heard a good thing said by anyone up there about Vail. But..they really haven't done anything yet..



So true, I can't even remember the last time that I had to park anywhere but in front of the Mansfield lodge.


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## kingslug (Nov 11, 2019)

7:30 chair is the best..before the hordes arrive


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## kingslug (Nov 11, 2019)

Looks like now until Sunday is the time to get up to K..Best early turns.


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## chuckstah (Nov 11, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Looks like now until Sunday is the time to get up to K..Best early turns.



Maybe?  Mount Snow will have Freefall open Wednesday on the North Face.  If they leave it ungroomed whales like 2 years ago, that will be the best open terrain and it's over 1000 vert. If they groom it, not so much.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 11, 2019)

chuckstah said:


> Maybe?  Mount Snow will have Freefall open Wednesday on the North Face.  If they leave it ungroomed whales like 2 years ago, that will be the best open terrain and it's over 1000 vert. If they groom it, not so much.



They were knocking down the whales on freefall today....


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## drjeff (Nov 11, 2019)

Yup, above freezing today, then a flash deep freeze tomorrow afternoon along with some snow. Had to knock the whales down today, then groom it out again after the freeze to limit the death cookie size...

Hopefully later this week they'll go guns on on either Plummet or Chute and keep it in its whale state for the weekend!





icecoast1 said:


> They were knocking down the whales on freefall today....



Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 12, 2019)

chuckstah said:


> Maybe?  Mount Snow will have Freefall open Wednesday on the North Face.  If they leave it ungroomed whales like 2 years ago, that will be the best open terrain and it's over 1000 vert. If they groom it, not so much.



You like skiing whales? I hate that shit..


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## chuckstah (Nov 12, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> You like skiing whales? I hate that shit..


Love it, as long as they're not a block of ice, and it's certainly better than having  everything open groomed out  flat as a pancake. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2019)

Hunter blew whales on Anapurna once that were insane..weird place to do it though.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 12, 2019)

I guess most of my Whale experience is blocks of ice. At least flat pancakes I can work on my technique. Problem with whales is you can't see over them so it's slow-go.

Just realized "Canyon" and "Cascade" are the same trail. Add Freefall and that's basically 2 runs. River Run counts as a 1/2 run.

Really hoping they open Long John for Thursday! It's all about building up those thighs for the main season though..


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## ss20 (Nov 12, 2019)

You need a few things to enjoy skiing snowmaking whales...

1. Good light (can't be cloudy)
2. Consistent snow conditions (not have ice on the back sides of those things)
3. Quite a few previous runs on the trail so you know where everything is

I've "skied" some 12-15 footers at Mount Snow, Windham, and Killington.  "Ski" is a relative term...when they're that big you're just going up and over them like a roller coaster.  It's a lot of fun once you get comfortable if there's not much else to ski.  

I'd prefer whales to groomed flat this time of year.  Nice way to switch things up.


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## kbroderick (Nov 12, 2019)

ss20 said:


> You need a few things to enjoy skiing snowmaking whales...
> 
> 1. Good light (can't be cloudy)
> 2. Consistent snow conditions (not have ice on the back sides of those things)
> 3. Quite a few previous runs on the trail so you know where everything is



I had an unexpectedly good few runs last year when Sunday River was making snow on White Heat; the whales weren't entirely consistent, but they were acting as effective wind-interruption devices, and if you could get into the pocket of soft, fresh manmade on each one, it made for some really fun turns. Having the pitch of an already-not-flat trail increased was a bonus, although it was a bit unnerving on the first run to let myself get light over the top and aim for a landing on the back of each whale.


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## andrec10 (Nov 12, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Hunter blew whales on Anapurna once that were insane..weird place to do it though.



I remember that. It was 2016 I think. Looked like a Dr. Seuss Story...


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## thetrailboss (Nov 12, 2019)

Looks like this thread is moot.  Mount Snow is opening tomorrow.  

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Mount-Snow-among-ski-areas-set-to-open-this-week-564822261.html


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## Smellytele (Nov 13, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like this thread is moot.  Mount Snow is opening tomorrow.
> 
> https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Mount-Snow-among-ski-areas-set-to-open-this-week-564822261.html



As is Bretton Woods 


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> As is Bretton Woods
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That is cool.

It is 60 F, sunny, and dry in SLC.  Snowmaking at the resorts has slowed.  Brighton got a good jump on things but progress is slow with this kind of weather.  A change is coming next week (?)

I've already earned turns on two days.  And my off-season was less than four months!


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