# Boot problem or my feet?



## severine (Apr 7, 2008)

*Boot problem or my feet?  UPDATE*

Foot cramping, that is.  Early season it's the worst, but then if I've been away for a while or if I buckle down too fast, I get foot cramps that hurt soooo badly.  I have flexible flat feet (small arch when unweighted and pretty much no arch when weighted).  I did pay for the $150 custom footbeds this time with my new boots that were done unweighted as they're supposed to offer more support.  Been out in the boots twice now and I'm still getting foot cramps initially.  It does seem to get better as the day wears on, though it sucks toughing it out for those first few runs.  (Or in the case of yesterday, pretty much all my runs.)

So is this a boot problem?  Or is it my feet?  Are there stretches I could maybe do or strengthening?  It's likely that part of my problem was being off skis for so long in the middle of the season.  But this is something I really need to tweak out.

UPDATED in post 36.


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## Greg (Apr 7, 2008)

severine said:


> Foot cramping, that is.  Early season it's the worst, but then if I've been away for a while or if I buckle down too fast, I get foot cramps that hurt soooo badly.  I have flexible flat feet (small arch when unweighted and pretty much no arch when weighted).  I did pay for the $150 custom footbeds this time with my new boots that were done unweighted as they're supposed to offer more support.  Been out in the boots twice now and I'm still getting foot cramps initially.  It does seem to get better as the day wears on, though it sucks toughing it out for those first few runs.  (Or in the case of yesterday, pretty much all my runs.)
> 
> So is this a boot problem?  Or is it my feet?  Are there stretches I could maybe do or strengthening?  It's likely that part of my problem was being off skis for so long in the middle of the season.  But this is something I really need to tweak out.



It's not a boot issue or a foot issue. It's a skiing issue. For me, early foot cramp is a normal part of most ski days. It's worse early in the year. Usually after a few runs, it goes away. Normally this is around the time I settle into my ski day and start skiing well. It usually takes me 4 or 5 runs to get everything dialed in.

Your issue is probably two-fold, (1)  only getting out briefly (by the time the cramping subsides you're almost done for the day) and (2) you're breaking in new boots. Try skiing your first few runs with your boots only loosely buckled. This should not only relieve some of the initial cramping, but also forces you to ski more balanced. Once you're fully warmed up (might take an hour or two), then lock them down.


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 7, 2008)

What Greg says.....First few runs go REAL loose with your boots. If you go to tight from the get go, its hard to get your feet right again. They should get better once they pack-out.


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## severine (Apr 7, 2008)

Well at least it's not just me.  And that's exactly it... if I try to buckle them down early, it's never right after that.  I've also found that taking a few really easy runs (like bunny hill runs) helps warm my feet up.  But in the company of some skiers, I get teased for such lengths so I don't always take that warm up time.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 7, 2008)

severine said:


> Well at least it's not just me.  And that's exactly it... if I try to buckle them down early, it's never right after that.  I've also found that taking a few really easy runs (like bunny hill runs) helps warm my feet up.  But in the company of some skiers, I get teased for such lengths so I don't always take that warm up time.



I always unbuckle for the lift ride up early in the day. Helps keep the blood flowing until you warm up. Gotta say my new boots are the first where I really haven't gotten any kind of cramping. Being too narrow can do it, have you had them stretched at all?

Anyway, what the others said. It tales a few days for you to break in the new boots. See how they feel then and go back to the boot guy.


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## severine (Apr 7, 2008)

I haven't had any boot work done other than the footbeds.  I'm in a difficult situation in that I can't really try them out after any work right now, KWIM?  But they have to work for me in a month when I go to Abasin.  The shop where I bought them is about 1 hr away so it's not that easy for me to just run over and have them tweaked (especially with 2 kids in tow).  And I was kind of waiting to see if some of my issues would resolve on their own as I used the boots more.  But again, I ran out of season.


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## ed-drum (Apr 7, 2008)

When I get new boots I always wear them while watching tv on the couch before skiing in them. Even with tried and true boots I do the same before the season. It really helps. I never unbuckle my boots after getting on the snow, for if the snow gets inside, they get wet and then cold. I always, every time I come home, pull the liners and dry them with a hair drier. If not, they will be damp in the morning. Ed.


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## bigbog (Apr 7, 2008)

*....*

Severine...I'll throw out a little(to what's been said),
Until the _daily confidence_ gets going, it can often be a case of doing the tiger-claws toe curling/clawing when you do encounter steep terrain right off the bat....terrain that's somewhat near that "concerned" zone early in the day, before you/we get our balance over our edges..as well as fore/aft..._on track_(so to speak).  Also, remember that your liners may be packing out a little...and any space in the lower cuff, in addition to the boot tongue's padding,  that isn't packed in tight to your legs/ankles....your feet will slip forward just enough to plow into either the front of the liner or any area where the liner, shell, and your foot fit....is a little close...to begin with.
*Add some foam/C-shaped...whatever...over, in front of, under(lesser amount)..your ankles...will help stop the forward sliding...and the foam shin wedges are terrific as well.  Really pack em' in...around the sides & front....to keep your feet stationary...(the key).
*Have to try them on for a little while to make sure you haven't over-packed them, but when in the booting-up room @lodge, it's easier to take out...than it is to put in & make it fit without shutting off circulation...
$.01


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## ckofer (Apr 7, 2008)

I might give Ed-drum's approach a try: wear your boots while not skiing sometimes to see if your feet respond to them less after a few sessions. I doubt that you'll do any harm.


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## severine (Apr 7, 2008)

I wore my boots around the house for many hours when I got them (and periodically since) because I wasn't sure I'd get to ski in them this season.  I don't get the foot cramps when wearing them around the house.

It's quite possible that they are a bit narrow in one place.  The fit was definitely different after they put in the custom footbeds (definitely more uncomfortable across the instep, for example).  But I was waiting to see if it would improve with use instead of running back right away begging for work to be done.

I guess since I do have a couple days out on them, and quite a few evenings putzing around the house with them on, that perhaps it wouldn't hurt to go back to the shop where I bought them and see what they have to say.  They did guarantee the fit, after all.


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## ckofer (Apr 7, 2008)

Okay now start wearing your boots _and_ skis around the house.


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## mondeo (Apr 7, 2008)

I have the same problem, where I'm fine walking around, but once I start skiing it starts hurting. Loosening up the buckles definitely helps, and it gets better as the day goes on. Also, I've come to notice that it seems as if my right foot is larger (not longer, just larger,) and it's also my right foot that tends to hurt more, so the boot volume is probably the main contributor. I'm just lucky that Alpine Haus is basically on my way home from work (according to Google, it adds a whopping 4 minutes just because I have to get off 91,) and 10 minutes away from home.

Complicating the matter for me is that the shell is a very good fit, when I'm buckled down well. Which means that if I have the buckles loose, the shell is doing all the work and putting way too much pressure on my ankle bone and heel.


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## ed-drum (Apr 8, 2008)

I forgot to mention that sometimes I warm up my boots before I leave the house in the morning, especially if it's really cold outside. Then I put them on the floor of the  front seat with the heat blowing on them. ( In my boot bag, of course.) I see a lot of people who drive farther than I do put their boots in the trunk of the car. There's no heat in the trunk. DOH! Then they sit around in the lodge waiting them to warm up. Cold boots in the morning will cause foot cramps. Ed.


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## Greg (Apr 8, 2008)

I just want to mention to be careful blowing heat, say from a hair dryer, on moldable liners or footbeds. You run the risk of them distorting.


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## severine (Apr 8, 2008)

ckofer said:


> Okay now start wearing your boots _and_ skis around the house.


I'm sure the landlord would love what that would do to the wood floors!  :lol: 

Greg is right.  Never blow hot air on boots.  I don't.  I've always had sufficient time for my boots to dry on their own.  

The 2 times I've skied with these boots, temps were warm.  40+.  I seem to have more problems with warm feet than with cold.


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## ed-drum (Apr 8, 2008)

Thanks Greg. I forgot to say to put the heat on medium. I see people put their boots near the fireplace in the lodges. YIPES! People don't want to pull their liners out. I guess that's a lazy thing. My Dalbello boots are clear, and you can see the condensation forming between the shell and the liner by the end of the day. My boots don't leak. However, I read that feet can produce up to a 1/4 cup of perspiration a day. I also tweak my own boots. I sometimes grind out tight stops with my Dremel tool the same way pro boot fitters do. But, be careful as not to go through the shell by over doing it. The ski magazines used to have tips on tuning skis and boots, but not anymore! I also make my own custom foot boards, but I won't post how to do it for fear of the pro boot fitters getting mad at me. It's easy and really inexpensive to do.  PM me and I'll tell you how though!  Ed.


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## hammer (Apr 8, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> I also make my own custom foot boards, but I won't post how to do it for fear of the pro boot fitters getting mad at me. It's easy and really inexpensive to do. PM me and I'll tell you how though! Ed.


I'm sure that actually making the footbed isn't too difficult with the right tools, but knowing what adjustments to make is another thing entirely...

I paid between $100 - $150 for my footbeds, and the bootfitter who did them (Jeff Bokum) has spent a lot of time working with me to get things right...in addition, he has made adjustments that would seem counterintutive to the casual user but make sense if you know the anatomy of the foot and what is needed for skiing. Same goes for the boot grinding he has done.

If you can grind your own boots and do your own footbeds, great...I just wouldn't recommend it in general to anyone else.


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## hammer (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> Foot cramping, that is. Early season it's the worst, but then if I've been away for a while or if I buckle down too fast, I get foot cramps that hurt soooo badly. I have flexible flat feet (small arch when unweighted and pretty much no arch when weighted). I did pay for the $150 custom footbeds this time with my new boots that were done unweighted as they're supposed to offer more support. Been out in the boots twice now and I'm still getting foot cramps initially. It does seem to get better as the day wears on, though it sucks toughing it out for those first few runs. (Or in the case of yesterday, pretty much all my runs.)
> 
> So is this a boot problem? Or is it my feet? Are there stretches I could maybe do or strengthening? It's likely that part of my problem was being off skis for so long in the middle of the season. But this is something I really need to tweak out.


Where is the cramping? If it's in the arches you may want to consider doing some stretches...

I can get considerable cramping in my arches during the first few runs of the day, but once things get loosened up my foot is well set in the boot...Jeff is still helping out on this but to make sure that the footbeds do their job properly I know I need to work on increasing my flexibility.


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## awf170 (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> The 2 times I've skied with these boots, temps were warm.  40+.  I seem to have more problems with warm feet than with cold.



The warmer your feet get the more they expand.  You might think it can't make a big difference, but it can be huge.  On a cold day I can wear my boots buckled up all day long and be pretty comfortable.  On a really warm day (especially if I'm skinning) I can get to a point were I can barely ski because the pain is so unbearable.


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## severine (Apr 8, 2008)

Once again, thank you!  I don't feel like so much of a wuss after the personal experience you guys have shared!  I figured that the warm weather problem was definitely related to the fact that your feet would be wider/larger overall.  I far prefer cold days for skiing just because of that.

I think I'm going to take my boots in though and see if they have any recommendations.  The fit was guaranteed and they know more about boot fitting than I do.  If there's anything they can do that will help, it's worth a shot.

hammer - what kind of stretches?  It certainly couldn't hurt!


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## hammer (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> hammer - what kind of stretches? It certainly couldn't hurt!


There are two types that I've been told to do:

roll a tennis ball on the floor using your arches
drop down on a knee and flex the toes back on your foot...not sure if it's needed but I try to keep the knee off of the floor
Good luck and be patient...


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## tjf67 (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> Foot cramping, that is.  Early season it's the worst, but then if I've been away for a while or if I buckle down too fast, I get foot cramps that hurt soooo badly.  I have flexible flat feet (small arch when unweighted and pretty much no arch when weighted).  I did pay for the $150 custom footbeds this time with my new boots that were done unweighted as they're supposed to offer more support.  Been out in the boots twice now and I'm still getting foot cramps initially.  It does seem to get better as the day wears on, though it sucks toughing it out for those first few runs.  (Or in the case of yesterday, pretty much all my runs.)
> 
> So is this a boot problem?  Or is it my feet?  Are there stretches I could maybe do or strengthening?  It's likely that part of my problem was being off skis for so long in the middle of the season.  But this is something I really need to tweak out.




I have the same problem for the first couple of runs.  My arches are on fire.  I thinks it is just part of the sport.  My boots have been tweeked no less than 5 times soo I think I have it as good as it is going to get without giving up performance.  I could be wrong though i lose my toenails every year so I am not sure I know what I am doing.  They grow back just in time for Novemeber


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## Greg (Apr 8, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> I have the same problem for the first couple of runs.  My arches are on fire.  I thinks it is just part of the sport.  My boots have been tweeked no less than 5 times soo I think I have it as good as it is going to get without giving up performance.  I could be wrong though i lose my toenails every year so I am not sure I know what I am doing.  They grow back just in time for Novemeber



I do think initial cramping is just part of it. After my feet loosen up, everything is fine for the rest of the day. This year was a good year for me, boot-wise; I rarely thought much about them. I lost a toenail last season. Looks pretty fuggin' gnarley when that thing falls off. :blink: This year I held onto it. I kept them clipped very short all season. That helps.


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## tjf67 (Apr 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> I do think initial cramping is just part of it. After my feet loosen up, everything is fine for the rest of the day. This year was a good year for me, boot-wise; I rarely thought much about them. I lost a toenail last season. Looks pretty fuggin' gnarley when that thing falls off. :blink: This year I held onto it. I kept them clipped very short all season. That helps.



They are not off yet.  Just bubbled up.  It alwasy happens in the srping from slamming them around.  its a viscious cycle.  I dont touch them cause that only makes them hurt.  I let nature take its course till they start stinking like rotten meat then they get the rip.  Usually end of June.  HAHA enjoy lunch


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## Greg (Apr 8, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> They are not off yet.  Just bubbled up.  It alwasy happens in the srping from slamming them around.  its a viscious cycle.  I dont touch them cause that only makes them hurt.  I let nature take its course till they start stinking like rotten meat then they get the rip.  Usually end of June.  HAHA enjoy lunch



Thanks. uke:

My nail just got real hollow sounding and brittle. It then just fell off on it's own. I think I actually caught it on something. Not all that painful. I got some ugly ass feet anyway so it just added to the display when wearing sandals in the summer...


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## severine (Apr 8, 2008)

Oh yuck! Thankfully, I haven't had toenail problems!!!

There's definitely an instep issue that I think can be attributed to the height of the custom footbeds (the boots felt significantly different pre- versus post-footbeds) that I need checked out anyway.  But it sounds like I'm not the only one with cranky feet.


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## Greg (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> There's definitely an instep issue that I think can be attributed to the height of the custom footbeds (the boots felt significantly different pre- versus post-footbeds) that I need checked out anyway.  But it sounds like I'm not the only one with cranky feet.



Custom footbeds can take some getting used to. After all, what other footwear do you have where there is that amount of support up under your arch? If you're not skiing well-balanced on them, that may be adding to the problem. I don't mean to sound crude, but I think you just gotta live with it for a while. If the achyness eventually goes away after an hour or two, there's not a problem with the boot.


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## severine (Apr 8, 2008)

Not crude at all.  That's what I was looking for - an honest response as to whether I needed to work on my feet or have the boots worked on.   The other issue I mentioned is a separate issue that needs to be looked at anyway.  

I'll work on those stretches and see if I can get out for a couple more ski days this month so I can break them in some more.  Though this weekend isn't looking good weather-wise.


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## hammer (Apr 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> Custom footbeds can take some getting used to. After all, what other footwear do you have where there is that amount of support up under your arch? If you're not skiing well-balanced on them, that may be adding to the problem. I don't mean to sound crude, but I think you just gotta live with it for a while. If the achyness eventually goes away after an hour or two, there's not a problem with the boot.


I normally didn't get out skiing all that often, but during the last month I was able to get out once a week...by the end of the month the "boot love" was not as pronounced during the first few runs.

As far as the "live with it" comment, I agree to a point but not entirely...I don't want to sacrifice performance, but when you don't get out as often you don't want to spend a chunk of your ski day with sore feet.

I also have a black toenail from falling backwards in the trees and jamming my big toe into my boot. I was told by an experienced skier that it was a sign of a good-fitting boot...next time, though, I'll keep the toenails trimmed and the boot bucked down.


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 8, 2008)

all good adice so far ---  keep em loose for a few runs 

One caution however be careful NOT to OVERTIGHTEN  buckles . This can  sometimes result  in a very painful condition  common among skiers and some runners called Morton's Neuroma . It's  an extremly  painful bump between the 3rd and 4th toes which results from TOO tight ski boots and prolonged skiing often on hardpack 

   One of my younger ski buddies 37 yrs old and a very serious and strong skier  got it this season and is still suffering after cortisone treatments . He has NOT skied since January .  So snug yes  tightening to the max --no way 

i used to really clamp em down but no longer 

PS glad to hear you're making that trip to A/B


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## Greg (Apr 8, 2008)

hammer said:


> As far as the "live with it" comment, I agree to a point but not entirely...I don't want to sacrifice performance, but when you don't get out as often you don't want to spend a chunk of your ski day with sore feet.



Well, I should clarify that I don't know exactly what degree of pain Carrie is in. We all have different pain tolerance too. I would also say that 3 or 4 runs, or perhaps an hour is not a chunk of your day. If there still is significant pain after that, you should pursue whether there is something that a boot fitter could do to fix the problem.


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## mondeo (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> I think I'm going to take my boots in though and see if they have any recommendations.  The fit was guaranteed and they know more about boot fitting than I do.  If there's anything they can do that will help, it's worth a shot.



If I remember correctly, you had these done at Alpine Haus (fits the hour from Torrington bill, at least)? I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but they close for the season next Sunday. I need to get in there soon and replace the pants I just ruined on Sunday (no more spread eagles for me until I lose some more weight...)


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## ckofer (Apr 8, 2008)

I usually don't suffer too much from skiing but ice skating kills me the first few times and since I go seldom that nearly always. I don't know, as Carrie questions, whether it's my condition or the skate in this case. The pains are similar too. I wonder if you could condition your feet by skating between trips or pre-season. There is a chance that you are straining some undeveloped muscles/ligaments/et al and encouraging inflammation. If it agrees with you, a few ibuprofin early in the day may help too.


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## severine (Apr 8, 2008)

mondeo said:


> If I remember correctly, you had these done at Alpine Haus (fits the hour from Torrington bill, at least)? I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but they close for the season next Sunday. I need to get in there soon and replace the pants I just ruined on Sunday (no more spread eagles for me until I lose some more weight...)


Good to know!  Looks like I won't have many opportunities for tweaking this season. 

ckofer - Now that you mention it, I always hated ice skating because my feet would hurt.  Probably related.


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## mondeo (Apr 8, 2008)

severine said:


> ckofer - Now that you mention it, I always hated ice skating because my feet would hurt.  Probably related.



I think we're onto something here... (with my grand total of 5 times skating in my life.) My conclusion, based on the fact that the pain only starts when I start skiing, is that it's due in part to the way the foot is loaded. Also, I've noticed that it's much more pronounced on long cruisers/crossovers/slow trails, and in conditions (crud for me) that I find myself struggling more with. So not just underdeveloped muscles, but possibly also due to not practicing good, efficient technique (skiing fast or in moguls forces me into a zone where I have to have better technique.)


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## severine (Apr 10, 2008)

UPDATE:

Went to Alpine Haus today and Eric helped me.  He said it's common with the custom footbeds for people to need them shaved down a bit due to instep (which was the other problem I mentioned).  He helped me with another spot where I was having a pressure point, but we were real conservative in adjustments today as he felt I still needed several more ski days in them before the liner will really start packing out and settling in.

I asked him about the cramping.  He felt that going from a very recreational boot to something that is more performance-driven (Salomon Performa 4.0 to a Nordica Olympia Beast 10) is part of it.  That there's an angle to the boot that's more aggressive than what I'm used to and so my feet will need some time getting used to that.  He also stated that his feet act up when he hasn't been skiing in a while (so again, I'm not the only one with cranky feet).  Basically, I just need to spend more time on the slopes and get used to not only my boots, but skiing again.  Which we laughed about seeing as it's the wrong time of year for that.  So he was honest that I'm likely to have unhappy feet at ABasin (especially since it's spring skiing=warm feet, though he suggested some things I can do to mitigate discomfort).  They will do everything they can once they reopen (recommended that we wait until something like Sundown is open so I can test out the tweaks over a series of days) to get it right though.  He feels the boot is right for the shape of my foot, that it's not a width issue (but there may be other things to tweak out once the boots are used more).  I appreciated his honesty, and the fact that they have a 1 yr fit guarantee (so if they can't get these boots right for me for some reason or other, even if it's next season, they'll get me into one that does work).

I know, I kind of went off on a tangent.  I guess I'm just trying to share that I had a very satisfactory visit today - and that those who were leaning toward it's a foot problem, not boot, may be right.  I'm working on stretching my feet more.  I'll be sure not to buckle up right away.  Thinnest socks possible for now.  And wear my boots more to get my feet acclimated. 

Thanks again for your help!


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## Warp Daddy (Apr 11, 2008)

Nice customer service and great feedback for you ! Relax and Enjoy A/B take pics !


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