# Chair falls off lift at Camelback



## PAabe (Mar 21, 2021)

Today a chair on the Sullivan lift at Camelback (west side/ main detachable) apparently hit a tower and detached with people on it



https://imgur.com/vRADT0C




https://imgur.com/GC4ipRE


My source is reddit and I could not find any post on facebook or the news but the snow report shows no lifts running on the west side which seems to confirm this


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## ss20 (Mar 21, 2021)

Crap.  Hope everyone is ok.  

Zero wind.  Either someone was being stupid and swinging the chair back/forth causing it to hit the tower and detatch, or some type of catastrophic grip failure almost never seen on modern detachable chairs.


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## njdiver85 (Mar 21, 2021)

From reddit: Sullivan Lift  jerked forward causing a chair to hit a support column and detach.


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## PAabe (Mar 21, 2021)

Camelback, PA
					

Click on a lift’s name for pictures.  View in fullscreen↗




					liftblog.com
				



Sullivan express is a 1995 Doppelmayer high speed quad.
Apparently they run it year round so it has some hours on it
Camelback is under new ownership this year (rumor is Blue will be under same ownership next year)

The pictures seem to show height could have been worse but still fairly high, hopefully nobody is critically injured


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## ne_skier (Mar 21, 2021)

According to insta @skicamelsack a son and his dad are in the hospital with serious injuries.
The lift itself is a 1995 Doppelmayr detachable quad. Runs daily and also runs for the amusement park in the summer. It's the last lift of it's era, using tech dating back to the late 80s. Stevenson is one year older and has virtually the same tech. No excuse for them to not shut down both lifts and do a thorough inspection after this.


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## ne_skier (Mar 21, 2021)

Unconfirmed*** reports saying that the father lost his vitals on the way to the hospital and both kids are paralyzed. True or not, absolutely outrageous on behalf of Camelback. Since PR is doing Jack shit, go to @skicamelsack for updates


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## raisingarizona (Mar 21, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Unconfirmed*** reports saying that the father lost his vitals on the way to the hospital and both kids are paralyzed. True or not, absolutely outrageous on behalf of Camelback. Since PR is doing Jack shit, go to @skicamelsack for updates


Jesus. That’s awful.


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## PAabe (Mar 21, 2021)

Not saying this is anything but an accident but people on pa forum are saying Sullivan had seemed to be stopping a lot lately, and new camelback management have seemed to be bigger bean counters than previously

See if they shut down Stevenson too, Sullivan has redundant fixed grips but not Stevenson.  I'm kind of surprised they didn't today.

Some sort if press release would seem to be expected given this happened like 9 hours ago now

Liftblog article will be kept updated: https://liftblog.com/2021/03/21/chair-falls-from-camelbacks-sullivan-express/

Good point in a comment on there, dad and 2 kids right before unload so horseplay unlikely


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## JoeB-Z (Mar 21, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Crap.  Hope everyone is ok.
> 
> Zero wind.  Either someone was being stupid and swinging the chair back/forth causing it to hit the tower and detatch, or some type of catastrophic grip failure almost never seen on modern detachable chairs.


I would think a chair hitting a tower should never cause a detachment. Kids will swing, people will load with skis sideways. It is low force glancing blow. Plus wind. Mechanical, inspection, maintenance failure I suspect. Pretty big on fixed grips myself. Old detachables seem like a complicated headache to maintain and inspect.


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## PAabe (Mar 22, 2021)

I don't quite understand why these places put hours on the detachables in the summer rather than the parallel fixed grips.

Most of the people there is the summer are there for the joyride and not in a hurry to get to the top - why run the expensive lift?


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## drjeff (Mar 22, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I don't quite understand why these places put hours on the detachables in the summer rather than the parallel fixed grips.
> 
> Most of the people there is the summer are there for the joyride and not in a hurry to get to the top - why run the expensive lift?



Much easier to load/unload a detachable when people of all ages (and physical abilities) are on their 2 feet and not on skis or a snowboard


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 22, 2021)

holy shit...  I hope people are ok but that picture doesn't look good. from a height perspective.  



drjeff said:


> Much easier to load/unload a detachable when people of all ages (and physical abilities) are on their 2 feet and not on skis or a snowboard


yep my thoughts exactly.


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## jerseydaze (Mar 22, 2021)

Wouldn’t grip failure cause the chair to slide back or stick at the sheeve train?


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## PAabe (Mar 22, 2021)

I guess since the lift was bouncing and the chair hit a tower, it was knocked off rather than just sliding back

Both high speed lifts listed as open on Camelback snow report today? This can't be accurate.  Still no press release.

Edit: snow report updated showing stevenson open but baily double running instead of sullivan


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## Domeskier (Mar 22, 2021)

I was on that lift a couple years ago when they did a routine stop that caused the chair to bounce up and down like a thrill ride. Never experienced something like that on any other lift.  This accident sounds awful.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 22, 2021)

There was a chair detachment at Camelback today that may have been loaded with passengers.  Let's hope that if there are injuries, that they are not serious.

UPDATE: From the Pocono township Police/EMS there were 3 patients that fell 20-30ft from a chairlift.  A 12 year old male with an arm injury 40 year old male with back and hip injury you have a 9 year old male with an abdominal injury.  Details: https://bit.ly/3vQffQ2


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## tumbler (Mar 22, 2021)

This is awful.  Sugarbush has 3 Dopps from 1995 and Bravo is the winter and summer workhorse.


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## ne_skier (Mar 22, 2021)

tumbler said:


> This is awful.  Sugarbush has 3 Dopps from 1995 and Bravo is the winter and summer workhorse.


Luckily, they use different designs. Sullivan was the last of the UNI series and Sugarbush’s lifts are the first of the Spacejet series. It was not a mechanical problem with the lift most likely as the grip has multiple safeties, meaning it would have to be a catastrophic failure for the grip to break. Horseplay is also ruled out, as it is virtually impossible to bounce a detachable enough to hit a tower as they have more line tension than fixed lifts. 99% sure it’s a maintenance issue.


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## Zand (Mar 22, 2021)

It's weird reading this thread while riding a chair at Sugarloaf of all places. Like watching "why planes crash" on a flight.

Hope they recover.


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## tumbler (Mar 22, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Luckily, they use different designs. Sullivan was the last of the UNI series and Sugarbush’s lifts are the first of the Spacejet series. It was not a mechanical problem with the lift most likely as the grip has multiple safeties, meaning it would have to be a catastrophic failure for the grip to break. Horseplay is also ruled out, as it is virtually impossible to bounce a detachable enough to hit a tower as they have more line tension than fixed lifts. 99% sure it’s a maintenance issue.


Thanks for the info on SB Dopps.


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## FBGM (Mar 22, 2021)

Ouch. Bad one. 

I could armchair quarterback lift maintenance and how experienced mechanics are few and far between but end result is the same. 

Scary stuff. Hope all heal up best they can.


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## SnowRock (Mar 22, 2021)

Before I moved out of Morris county was often at camelback lapping this quad. Is it not odd that they haven’t even released a statement? I mean crisis mgt 101.

 Also seems strange that there is no local news covering this. Ton of local Poconos outlets.


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## PAabe (Mar 22, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Luckily, they use different designs. Sullivan was the last of the UNI series and Sugarbush’s lifts are the first of the Spacejet series. It was not a mechanical problem with the lift most likely as the grip has multiple safeties, meaning it would have to be a catastrophic failure for the grip to break. Horseplay is also ruled out, as it is virtually impossible to bounce a detachable enough to hit a tower as they have more line tension than fixed lifts. 99% sure it’s a maintenance issue.


People on other forums are saying it has been bouncing in that spot and stopping a lot recently

Injuries apparently include broken arm, broken pelvis, mild concussion, and bruised lung.  No loss of consciousness.  Seems like this could have been a lot worse, hopefully they can recover well

Lots of armchair technical discussion going on at liftblog article comments if that interest anyone

Weird that no news has reported on this yet and Camelback has not even released a statement acknowledging that it happened.


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Weird that no news has reported on this yet and Camelback has not even released a statement acknowledging that it happened.



Finally saw the story picked up by a channel in Allentown...









						Witness: Family injured when chair falls from ski lift at Camelback
					

A witness riding two seats behind the family described Sunday's scary scene.




					www.wfmz.com
				




There's also a brief statement from Camelback in the article.


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## ss20 (Mar 22, 2021)

FBGM said:


> Ouch. Bad one.
> 
> I could armchair quarterback lift maintenance and how experienced mechanics are few and far between but end result is the same.
> 
> Scary stuff. Hope all heal up best they can.




It's scary how correct this statement is.  

Truthfully, I am amazed at how unregulated ski lifts are.  I mean...at any given time on a long, high-capacity lift with full chairs there's 300+ people onboard.  I can't think of any form of transit where that many people are on a machine that complicated and it's ran by people making a dollar over minimum wage and the chief mechanics responsible for its maintenance make a few dollars more than that.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Finally saw the story picked up by a channel in Allentown...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems thin on details.  Hope everyone is OK.


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## Bandit2941 (Mar 22, 2021)

Friend of mine who is a CBK regular said he heard that the people in the chair were jumping up and down/rocking the chair before the accident. Not sure how true that is.

Bad situation either way!


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## FBGM (Mar 22, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It's scary how correct this statement is.
> 
> Truthfully, I am amazed at how unregulated ski lifts are.  I mean...at any given time on a long, high-capacity lift with full chairs there's 300+ people onboard.  I can't think of any form of transit where that many people are on a machine that complicated and it's ran by people making a dollar over minimum wage and the chief mechanics responsible for its maintenance make a few dollars more than that.


It’s scary. I’ve worked in the ski industry in upper management for better part of 15 years. And saw 2 night and day operations. I’ll share:

Ski Area 1 - a top 10 ski area in USA
Advanced lift maintenance with about 5 top tier mechanics. Paid decent but not to the level of say a similar job in another industry. Great wealth of knowledge between those say 5 top guys. But all were pushing retirement. The next level of up and comers were good, trained well but just not at that level yet. And their pay was sub par. Overall great department and everyone enjoyed the work and company. In 8+\- years no lift accidents, almost 0 lift downtime and 1 evac - on a major lift, full, and lined was cleared in about 45 min. I felt very safe on any lift any time.

Ski Area 2 - Major resort, but not as top tier as above. 
Terrifying lift maintenance knowledge and practices. Mix of newer and older lifts. Non stop downtime and braking. Lift maintenance crew just had knowledge of basics. 1 senior guy on crew and he was OK at best. No up and coming staff. Low pay. Poor attitudes. Stuff would brake and be down for days waiting for manufacture help to come and diagnose because on staff had no idea. I stopped riding some lifts shortly before I quit due to safety concerns.

It’s pretty crazy to see the age of some lifts. There are governing bodies for each state. It’s just still a scary grey area.

I’ve said it before, there will be a catostrophic lift accident at some point. And this will change everything. It just sucks it will have to come to that.


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## PAabe (Mar 22, 2021)

One would think these places would want to have good enough internal inspection to at least lessen the insurance/liability risk and avoid additional future regulation.  Like I get a lot of places are cash strapped, but you can't be running something as complicated as a detachable lift on a shoestring budget, and Camelback of all places is certainly not cash strapped.

T-bars/pomas are making a small comeback, another advantage is they can't really catastrophically fail when the passengers are already on the ground - I would assume this is reflected in the insurance rates as well


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## Smellytele (Mar 22, 2021)

Ski are #2 = Mount Snow?


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## Zand (Mar 22, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Ski are #2 = Mount Snow?


My assumption was that, Killington, or Sunday River. All three examples of Les Otten era rapid expansion and zero maintenance.


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## ss20 (Mar 22, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Ski are #2 = Mount Snow?



lmao of course.  FBGM may be a nice "insider" addition to this board but it's tough to take anything he says seriously after those AMAZING Mount Snow tirades he built his first few dozen posts upon and has peppered in since.


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## ne_skier (Mar 22, 2021)

It’s 99% resort error. Horseplay is ruled out according to witnesses, it was a calm day weather-wise and the grips have 2 safeties, meaning it would have to be a catastrophic failure that was somehow not detected before the chair left the terminal, a near impossibility. My bet is that the resort was partially negligible in the accident, perhaps hence why their statement was so skimpy and lackluster. I’ve heard that the new ownership is cutting corners too which only further signals resort error. Important thing is that everyone is alive and everyone should make a full recovery soon. Dad has a broken pelvis, one kid has a broken arm and the other has a bruised lung.


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## PAabe (Mar 22, 2021)

Statement from earlier this afternoon



"Our current statement regarding yesterday’s Sullivan Lift incident. Sullivan Lift has been closed until further notice."

I'll call it an accident unless proven otherwise however if cutting corners on lift maintenance deemed to be a contributing cause they have no excuse


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## Zermatt (Mar 22, 2021)

ss20 said:


> lmao of course.  FBGM may be a nice "insider" addition to this board but it's tough to take anything he says seriously after those AMAZING Mount Snow tirades he built his first few dozen posts upon and has peppered in since.


Or somebody that doesn't know the difference between break and brake.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2021)

So do the lift manufacturers offer training?  I'm just curious how resorts build up those skills in their staff outside of experience.

In my industry, we offer training for a fee to our customers.  The biomedical engineers are entered in the exact same courses as our own field service engineers.  

You would think there should be some sort of national certification database and resorts have to maintain a certain amount of credentialed mechanics on staff in order to open.


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## kingslug (Mar 22, 2021)

Maintenance is maintenance..do it well and often..you lessen the chance for failure..its simple..its a machine. 
This..I know.


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## ss20 (Mar 22, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Maintenance is maintenance..do it well and often..you lessen the chance for failure..its simple..its a machine.
> This..I know.



Yes... but this is an industry infamous for deferring maintenance til the thing breaks.  Usually it's the small stuff.  Usually.


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## ne_skier (Mar 22, 2021)

The infamous Spillway accident at Sugarloaf for example has been attributed to poor maintenance procedures


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> The infamous Spillway accident at Sugarloaf for example has been attributed to poor maintenance procedures


The facts of that accident are pretty bad.  It doesn't help that a mechanic was literally on the tower making an adjustment while the lift was loaded and operating.  I know that there was litigation over that accident.  I would imagine that the case was settled?

The other incident, involving King Pine, was also pretty bad.  At least with that one there was a design defect involved, but it still is not good.

As to Camelback, I know some folks are instantly finding fault when we don't know what really happened.  I imagine that the state inspectors will do a report.  We don't know much about what happened.  Was the chair improperly loaded?  Did the kids slide over to one side to look at Dad's phone?  Did wind play a factor?  Was there some other malfunction?  Was the haul rope not properly adjusted?  Did someone in another chair bounce?  Honestly, chairs like this don't just fall from the sky.  That said, Lift Blog cited some other recent examples involving Doppelmayr chairs.


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## faceplant (Mar 22, 2021)

pics of chair ...









						Chair Falls from Camelback’s Sullivan Express
					

A chair fell from the Sullivan Express at Camelback Resort in Pennsylvania today along with three passengers who were riding in it. Pictures posted to social media show a significant patrol respons…




					liftblog.com


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## John9 (Mar 22, 2021)

I am a regular,  1 hour drive and cheap weekday season passes.I have been on those lifts countless times. 

When riding, I often look up and ask myself, "is there anyway this thing could fall off?" I thought no way, it's hanging on a steel cable and bolted on. Many times I have been on lifts that came to a sudden stop, and the chair, rises and drops many feet quickly,  so much I feel weightless, my stomach in my throat. Never once did I think it possible for a chair to fall off a cable, still don't understand how it happened or could?


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## ss20 (Mar 22, 2021)

John9 said:


> I am a regular,  1 hour drive and cheap weekday season passes.I have been on those lifts countless times.
> 
> When riding, I often look up and ask myself, "is there anyway this thing could fall off?" I thought no way, it's hanging on a steel cable and bolted on. Many times I have been on lifts that came to a sudden stop, and the chair, rises and drops many feet quickly,  so much I feel weightless, my stomach in my throat. Never once did I think it possible for a chair to fall off a cable, still don't understand how it happened or could?



You're not quite "bolted" on as you say when on a detachable chairlift... in fact you'd be surprised at how much movement there can be.  The grips clamp on the cable, that's one way they attach.  But a lot of force too comes from the top on both sides of the grip, running up/down the cable.  Take a close look above the cable and you'll see a long "plate" roughly a foot long that sits on top of the cable.  That provides lots of friction between the chair and the cable...another device designed to prohibit movement or "slippage" down the line.  When a chair bounces up and down this plate is no longer providing friction on the rope and the design is at its weakest point.  One of the most notorious detachable lift incidents was the Quicksilver quad at Whistler in the mid 90s.  The chair was built by a lift manufacturer Yan, which had innovative, minimalist designs that were unfortunately underdeveloped for their detachable chairs.  The key issue was the grip did not apply adequate force on the cable.  The lift had an emergency stop which caused the line to bounce up and down.  This in turn caused a chair to come lose from the cable, but not fall.  When the lift got going again, the affected chair stayed still while other chairs piled up behind, eventually falling to the ground below. 

That's why the really quick up/down is a weak point for deatchables.  Gravity is supposed to "push" the grip/chair down onto the cable.  Shoot the chair up to the sky and you lose that force.


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## urungus (Mar 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> That's why the really quick up/down is a weak point for deatchables.  Gravity is supposed to "push" the grip/chair down onto the cable.  Shoot the chair up to the sky and you lose that force.



In other words, it works all the time, except when you need it to.


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## crystalmountainskier (Mar 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> You're not quite "bolted" on as you say when on a detachable chairlift... in fact you'd be surprised at how much movement there can be.  The grips clamp on the cable, that's one way they attach.  But a lot of force too comes from the top on both sides of the grip, running up/down the cable.  Take a close look above the cable and you'll see a long "plate" roughly a foot long that sits on top of the cable.  That provides lots of friction between the chair and the cable...another device designed to prohibit movement or "slippage" down the line.  When a chair bounces up and down this plate is no longer providing friction on the rope and the design is at its weakest point.  One of the most notorious detachable lift incidents was the Quicksilver quad at Whistler in the mid 90s.  The chair was built by a lift manufacturer Yan, which had innovative, minimalist designs that were unfortunately underdeveloped for their detachable chairs.  The key issue was the grip did not apply adequate force on the cable.  The lift had an emergency stop which caused the line to bounce up and down.  This in turn caused a chair to come lose from the cable, but not fall.  When the lift got going again, the affected chair stayed still while other chairs piled up behind, eventually falling to the ground below.
> 
> That's why the really quick up/down is a weak point for deatchables.  Gravity is supposed to "push" the grip/chair down onto the cable.  Shoot the chair up to the sky and you lose that force.



Huh? The friction plate doesn't even touch the rope. It's only for terminal movement. And modern grips do not rely on gravity for grip force. Stop spreading misinformation.


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## ss20 (Mar 23, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Huh? The friction plate doesn't even touch the rope. It's only for terminal movement. And modern grips do not rely on gravity for grip force. Stop spreading misinformation.



Not the friction plate, the long black piece that rides on the rope and helps the grip travel under depression sheaves.  Can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.


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## crystalmountainskier (Mar 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Not the friction plate, the long black piece that rides on the rope and helps the grip travel under depression sheaves.  Can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.
> 
> View attachment 51059


Needles. They do not provide any clamping force.


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## Domeskier (Mar 23, 2021)

Here's a decent video of a Leitner detaching and reattaching:


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## Teleskier (Mar 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Not the friction plate, the long black piece that rides on the rope and helps the grip travel under depression sheaves.  Can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.
> 
> View attachment 51059


Sounds like our lives are depending upon the strength of those springs, and friction. What happens with iced cables?

Your post makes me want to stop the sometime urge to swing my legs to enjoy the gentle chair bounce. That negative-G fun lift-off-seat sensation isn't risk-free. 

This accident is not helping my already lift adverse and scared non-skiing friends to come join me. I can't say "that never happens." "Hardly ever happens" won't really convince them. Shows once again that proper maintenance vs shortcuts matters for safety (in general, from bridges to lifts).


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## ss20 (Mar 23, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Needles. They do not provide any clamping force.



Correct but they do provide friction along the rope helping prevent slippage.  Yes, I understand the grip does most of the work.


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## kingslug (Mar 23, 2021)

Icing on the cables shuts down the lift. Happened at PC 9990 was down for the day. In simplistic terms...if the spring/clamping mechanism fails due to mechanical or even metal fatigue..there's nothing holding you on anymore. You would be surprised at the little parts that hold together the large parts..they are usually the problem. We could speculate forever..only a report will tell..and I doubt we will read it.


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## ceo (Mar 23, 2021)

The needles are only there to provide a ramp for the grip to pass under compression towers. Any friction they provide is purely incidental. The Yan grips did have a friction component in addition to their inadequate clamping mechanism, which is part of why it was vulnerable to slippage on steep inclines. And the PHB gondola grip (as on the old Sugarloaf gondola) worked entirely by gravity. 
Fun fact: on fixed-grip lifts, the clamping force also comes from a spring, that is compressed by the big nut at the other end of the grip. (Except those weird Riblet grips that are woven into the cable, of course.)


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## Teleskier (Mar 23, 2021)

ceo said:


> The needles are only there to provide a ramp for the grip to pass under compression towers. Any friction they provide is purely incidental. The Yan grips did have a friction component in addition to their inadequate clamping mechanism, which is part of why it was vulnerable to slippage on steep inclines. And the PHB gondola grip (as on the old Sugarloaf gondola) worked entirely by gravity.
> Fun fact: on fixed-grip lifts, the clamping force also comes from a spring, that is compressed by the big nut at the other end of the grip. (Except those weird Riblet grips that are woven into the cable, of course.)


This is all very interesting... learning about a topic I always wondered about every time I look up while on a chair... thanks everyone for the tidbits of education.


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## FBGM (Mar 23, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> Or somebody that doesn't know the difference between break and brake.


It’s amazing that’s the only thing I didn’t spell right typing from my phone. Thank Mormon Jesus we have you here to correct those things.


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## Zermatt (Mar 23, 2021)

FBGM said:


> It’s amazing that’s the only thing I didn’t spell right typing from my phone. Thank Mormon Jesus we have you here to correct those things.


No problem, that's not considered a spelling error though.


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## FBGM (Mar 23, 2021)

Zermatt said:


> No problem, that's not considered a spelling error though.


GrAmmeArr error. Got it.

Back to real shit. Does anyone know if Cammelsack stopped and evaced the entire line after this happened or did they just run it to clear it? (Which would be crazy)


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## ne_skier (Mar 23, 2021)

According to people who were on the lift, it stopped hard for about 20 minutes and proceeded to run at a crawl to unload passengers. I have to assume they had reason to believe it had nothing to do with the tower and was purely an issue with that grip/chair, or else doing such would be reckless. Guess a rope evac would grab the attention of the big bad news anchors which would hurt sales. Thank god we have liftblog and that one random Camelback slander account on Instagram, who to my knowledge was the first to report this (Account is now mysteriously gone...hmm...)


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## kbroderick (Mar 23, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> According to people who were on the lift, it stopped hard for about 20 minutes and proceeded to run at a crawl to unload passengers. I have to assume they had reason to believe it had nothing to do with the tower and was purely an issue with that grip/chair, or else doing such would be reckless. Guess a rope evac would grab the attention of the big bad news anchors which would hurt sales. Thank god we have liftblog and that one random Camelback slander account on Instagram, who to my knowledge was the first to report this (Account is now mysteriously gone...hmm...)


Guessing blind here, but I'd expect there are a also a fair number of mechanical issues that fall into the category of "if we run this dead slow and I stand on the tower in question, I can radio for a stop before things get bad if it starts happening again." PR issues aside, a full lift evac is a lengthy process with a certain amount of inherent risk.


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## FBGM (Mar 23, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> According to people who were on the lift, it stopped hard for about 20 minutes and proceeded to run at a crawl to unload passengers. I have to assume they had reason to believe it had nothing to do with the tower and was purely an issue with that grip/chair, or else doing such would be reckless. Guess a rope evac would grab the attention of the big bad news anchors which would hurt sales. Thank god we have liftblog and that one random Camelback slander account on Instagram, who to my knowledge was the first to report this (Account is now mysteriously gone...hmm...)


Weird that IG account is gone. Id assume they may have been threatened with some sort of copy right/desist notice since the logo and name was so similar. But good luck getting that anywhere. Maybe they just scared them enough. Shame. 


If camelback gets their dicks kicked in with some massive lawsuit wonder if they entertain an offer to sell to the Saudi King up the road with that other water park hotel. Heard that dude wanted a ski area


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## FBGM (Mar 23, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Guessing blind here, but I'd expect there are a also a fair number of mechanical issues that fall into the category of "if we run this dead slow and I stand on the tower in question, I can radio for a stop before things get bad if it starts happening again." PR issues aside, a full lift evac is a lengthy process with a certain amount of inherent risk.


Could evac that lift in under an hour if patrol knows their stuff. It was also like 50 and sunny so no temp issues. No press cares when lifts evac at other places. They could just do the Vail thing and give everyone on lift a voucher for a cookie and hot coco as a sorry.


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## skithetrees (Mar 23, 2021)

I would think running the lift super slow with a tech on that tower is safer than a rope evac. Having been rope evacuated in the past, that is not an experience I would feel safe doing with my young kids. I felt fine, but would be very nervous with young kids. The thoughts on a surging drive seem like a good bet to my Monday morning quarterback self. Curious if someone with more knowledge here could explain exactly how that would happen.


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## PAabe (Mar 23, 2021)

FBGM said:


> If camelback gets their dicks kicked in with some massive lawsuit wonder if they entertain an offer to sell to the Saudi King up the road with that other water park hotel. Heard that dude wanted a ski area


big rumors going on paskiandride about Blue mountain sale to camelback owners (not operator), I wonder if this would have any effect on that
I for one would not be too excited about Blue being under the same owners as camelback amusement park


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## jaywbigred (Apr 5, 2021)

Any update on this? Did the dad and kids do okay at the hospital? I've been hoping to hear positive news.


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## PAabe (Apr 5, 2021)

From what I understand, they are doing an investigation with the state but they said results would not be released to the public which is kind of lame.  The lift wasn't open the rest of the season but you could see them testing it on the webcam.

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread, I have seen no update, but the injuries included broken bones, bruised lung, and concussion which is definitely bad but could have been much worse I would say


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## Domeskier (Apr 5, 2021)

PAabe said:


> From what I understand, they are doing an investigation with the state but they said results would not be released to the public which is kind of lame.


Especially if Camelback is found to be at fault.  Everything will become public once the inevitable lawsuit is filed, however.


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## urungus (Sep 18, 2021)

What’s going on at Camelback ?

Latest news:  https://www.pahomepage.com/news/cam...ospital-after-being-run-over-by-snow-groomer/

Two months after the chairlift accident discussed in this thread, there was also incident on the zip line:  https://www.phillyvoice.com/cameback-mountain-girl-injured-zip-line-fall-poconos/


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## JoeB-Z (Sep 18, 2021)

Emulating Mountain Creek Traction Park. I taught for a few weeks at Vernon Valley and quit over safety issues, I think the amusement park mentality of these places catches up with them. Safety has to be a cult. I worked as an armament engineer and in 45 years we had never had a lost time accident at the range.


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## ne_skier (Sep 19, 2021)

urungus said:


> What’s going on at Camelback ?
> 
> Latest news:  https://www.pahomepage.com/news/cam...ospital-after-being-run-over-by-snow-groomer/
> 
> Two months after the chairlift accident discussed in this thread, there was also incident on the zip line:  https://www.phillyvoice.com/cameback-mountain-girl-injured-zip-line-fall-poconos/


KSL, the penny-pinching Floridian resort chain can’t run a ski area properly? Who would’ve guessed


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## PAabe (Sep 20, 2021)

These KSL cats with the buyout now are responsible for Blue Mountain's mobs of people, ice glaciers, choke points, and high-mileage lifts.

I might be a bit uneasy going up the quad or sixer there next year if I show up


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## Domeskier (Apr 3, 2022)

Looks like this lift is getting replace with a bubble six:  https://liftblog.com/2022/04/01/new-six-packs-coming-to-blue-mountain-and-camelback/

Blue Mountain's getting one too.  I sure hope they ordered heated seats and tablets for them.


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## PAabe (Apr 3, 2022)

The bubble was proposed before but I don't think it is a great fit.  Good for marketing, sure.  Not necessary for a 4 minute ride up the top on a 40 degree day, annoying to be looking through at night, and they'll get scratched and the tar beat out of them by the clientele, especially at night.


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## PAabe (Apr 3, 2022)

Blue one is interesting, I do agree that the intersection there can be dangerous at the bottom of vista/burma.  Not sure that dumping out 50% more skiers at the top will improve the intersections at Blue in general though.  Also curious if this will affect their early and late season operations, since main street holds snow better than the valley.


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## Domeskier (Apr 3, 2022)

Yeah, bubbles in the time of covid are hard for me to get behind.  I could see early season at Blue being affected if they need to blow snow down to the valley to open anything but the Vista chair.  I don't see it affecting late season much.  I have never seen them close with just the upper mountain open.  I'm happy they are finally replacing the Main Street doubles, but I wish they kept the same footprint to make it easier to lap Barney's without going to the valley.


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## PAabe (Apr 3, 2022)

Yeah the doubles are slow but I always liked not having to do the run out at the bottom - the the awful weaving crowd going down it, the terrible snow surface as a result, and then having to traverse that flat area again on the way up the lift,  which stops a dozen times on the way up since they cant figure out how to load six people across a lift at once - I always found it just as fast to take the doubles, especially if there is any sort of line at the bottom


Domeskier said:


> Yeah, bubbles in the time of covid are hard for me to get behind.  I could see early season at Blue being affected if they need to blow snow down to the valley to open anything but the Vista chair.  I don't see it affecting late season much.  I have never seen them close with just the upper mountain open.  I'm happy they are finally replacing the Main Street doubles, but I wish they kept the same footprint to make it easier to lap Barney's without going to the valley.


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## ne_skier (Apr 3, 2022)

Agreed, the bubbles on the Camelback lift is simply a PR stunt and will likely prove to be more of an annoyance to staff and skiers than it would help them. The bubbles themselves will likely wind up being scratched/stickered to hell, and given the 4-minute lift ride their usefulness will likely be limited. 

I haven't been to Camelback since 2018 so I can't really judge, but there is a legitimate question on how this will affect crowding. Trails like Honeymoon were usually jam-packed, but otherwise, it wasn't horrible. If it's worse today, perhaps they could try to "fix" this issue by getting rid of the adjacent Bailey double, however that would likely end up biting them in the ass on sellout days or during wind closures, an issue that the aforementioned bubbles would exacerbate.

The next project Camelback will likely embark upon will be replacing the Marc Antony and Cleopatra lifts with one fixed quad. Marc Antony is a 1982 Borvig double without any recent modifications to my knowledge. Cleo was originally built in 1964, one year after the resort's opening, however everything except the tower tubes was replaced with Borvig parts in 1992. When I frequented Camelback, Marc Antony would run 10:30 to 6 on weekends and holidays, while seeing Cleo run was extremely rare. According to the snow reports, I saw this past season, I don't believe either lift ran (if someone knows otherwise please correct me), and being old Borvigs their time is likely coming.


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## IceEidolon (Apr 4, 2022)

If Blue's putting a new liftline down the dead space between Valley School and Terrain Run, maybe they'll also make a cut-through to get some traffic off Shuttle?

If Blue's short on snowmaking firepower, they just need to automate either Easy Out or Come Around - either would free up enough air (12 guns converted from 525 CFM Spraying Systems Snowjet to 250 CFM BoraxN 3m) to cover Terrain Run 50/50 with BoraxN 6m and low E towers like Burma/Coming Soon. If they want all Borax, convert both upper mountain trails. 

If I had to guess, though, they'll install mostly or only low E towers, just spaced a little tighter than Burma and with some manual hydrants in between, just in case - and then they can run that entire trail instead of two old school poleguns.

I'll be curious to see the final alignment and how they handle the traffic changes it'll require.

As for Camelback, the marketing value of the only bubble lift in the region is pretty big - not that they have the capacity to serve the existing demand on busy days. I'm more curious who'll roll out more substantial snowmaking improvements - Blue's believed in automation since the 90s (Paradise), Camelback has been on the low E train about as long. Now Blue's putting up low E guns and Camelback is adding HKD automation.


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## Domeskier (Apr 4, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> As for Camelback, the marketing value of the only bubble lift in the region is pretty big.


They'd have to define the region very narrowly - Blue's new lift will have bubbles, too.


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## drjeff (Apr 4, 2022)

Bubbles are GREAT when a liquid precipitation event rolls through. 

If I am not mistaken, those type of storms will roll through there numerous times during a typical season.


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## Domeskier (Apr 7, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Bubbles are GREAT when a liquid precipitation event rolls through.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, those type of storms will roll through there numerous times during a typical season.


That is true. However, both Camelback and Blue like to close up shop entirely or shut down early on days (including weekends!) when significant rain is in the forecast.  Maybe the bubbles will change this practice??


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## Not Sure (Apr 7, 2022)

Domeskier said:


> That is true. However, both Camelback and Blue like to close up shop entirely or shut down early on days (including weekends!) when significant rain is in the forecast.  Maybe the bubbles will change this practice??


Pretty much a waste of money. The only benefit I can see is a fresh snow melting off the upper chair dripping on my head and legs, first world problem 
The Valley chairs at Blue are great for lapping Barneys ,the main st side doesn’t get very crazy line wise. The downside is the  seats are very uncomfortable and suck when it’s really cold. 
Should be interesting.


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## tumbler (Apr 7, 2022)

I think it's marketing driven.  Put in the fancy lifts at the feeder hills and people will want to ride the fancy lifts at their larger resorts in NE or out west.  

Not referring to people on here.


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## trackbiker (Apr 7, 2022)

tumbler said:


> I think it's marketing driven.  Put in the fancy lifts at the feeder hills and people will want to ride the fancy lifts at their larger resorts in NE or out west.
> 
> Not referring to people on here.


I agree. People will stand in line for those bubble lifts for 20 minutes when they could have been to the top on a fixed grip lift in 5. It's all marketing. People will go to Blue and Camelback over other areas, no matter the crowds, just because of those lifts.


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## ne_skier (Apr 7, 2022)

From Lift Blog: "Confirmed @skicamelback's new sixer will be a Doppelmayr D-Line. The United States will go from 6 D-Line lifts to 13 over the next ~8 months."


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## PAabe (Apr 7, 2022)

Shawnee still has the fastest lift in the state... see if Blue and Camelback run theirs faster


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## IceEidolon (Apr 9, 2022)

Domeskier said:


> They'd have to define the region very narrowly - Blue's new lift will have bubbles, too.


It won't, Blue's getting a traditional six pack - at least based on every press release I've seen that says nothing about enclosed chairs/bubbles, and knowing that there's no room at either end for a chair barn.


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## Domeskier (Apr 9, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> It won't, Blue's getting a traditional six pack - at least based on every press release I've seen that says nothing about enclosed chairs/bubbles, and knowing that there's no room at either end for a chair barn.


Ah.  A ski patroller had told me he heard it would be a bubble.  This was before anything was officially announced.


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## IceEidolon (Apr 10, 2022)

Well, if it is a bubble nobody in the lift/ops media has confirmed it yet - when they have said so about Camelback's.


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## Domeskier (Apr 10, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Well, if it is a bubble nobody in the lift/ops media has confirmed it yet - when they have said so about Camelback's.


I was not arguing with you.  I was acknowledging your point and telling you why I thought it was going to be a bubble.  Sheesh.


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## IceEidolon (Apr 11, 2022)

I wasn't arguing with you, just saying why I was confident Blue's new lift isn't a bubble and being clear that I can't point to an article explicitly saying "This isn't a bubble", just articles calling Camelback's six pack a bubble lift and then not saying that about Blue.


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