# Killington will Open Before Sunday River This Season



## skiersleft (Sep 21, 2012)

There. I said it. K will make it 2 years in a row.


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## Puck it (Sep 21, 2012)

I'll be there!


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## Smellytele (Sep 21, 2012)

Both areas are soul less so who cares?


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## St. Bear (Sep 22, 2012)

Wow, it's that time of year already for this thread?  How time flies.


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## Nick (Sep 22, 2012)

^ Haha I was just thinking that same thing this morning


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## cannonist (Sep 23, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> There. I said it. K will make it 2 years in a row.




The only reason killington opened first last year was because SR allowed it. It was a respectful gesture after hurricane Irene. It wont happen again.


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## skiersleft (Sep 23, 2012)

cannonist said:


> The only reason killington opened first last year was because SR allowed it. It was a respectful gesture after hurricane Irene. It wont happen again.



It opened before SR because they are in a better position than SR to open early and stay open. SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact. The only reason why SR competes is because they have the will to open as soon as possible and paint the trails super thin and close right after they open if that's what it takes. K, on the other hand, takes a more conservative approach. They will open first if they can do so with a quality product and if they can open and stay open. If not, they will open second. But they have better tools to get it done earlier than SR. It's just a matter of will. 

And since I'm an optimist, I think they will open first again for two reasons. First, because they can and they have the advantage over SR in terms of elevation and temperatures. Second, because they tasted what comes with opening first and early and they liked it. Bet they want to taste that again. SR's days as the king of fall are over.


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## tt431 (Sep 23, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> It opened before SR because they are in a better position than SR to open early and stay open. SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact. The only reason why SR competes is because they have the will to open as soon as possible and paint the trails super thin and close right after they open if that's what it takes. K, on the other hand, takes a more conservative approach. They will open first if they can do so with a quality product and if they can open and stay open. If not, they will open second. But they have better tools to get it done earlier than SR. It's just a matter of will.
> 
> And since I'm an optimist, I think they will open first again for two reasons. First, because they can and they have the advantage over SR in terms of elevation and temperatures. Second, because they tasted what comes with opening first and early and they liked it. Bet they want to taste that again. SR's days as the king of fall are over.


I think Woodburry could be the King this year.


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## jaytrem (Sep 23, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> It opened before SR because they are in a better position than SR to open early and stay open. SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact. The only reason why SR competes is because they have the will to open as soon as possible and paint the trails super thin and close right after they open if that's what it takes. K, on the other hand, takes a more conservative approach. They will open first if they can do so with a quality product and if they can open and stay open. If not, they will open second. But they have better tools to get it done earlier than SR. It's just a matter of will.
> 
> And since I'm an optimist, I think they will open first again for two reasons. First, because they can and they have the advantage over SR in terms of elevation and temperatures. Second, because they tasted what comes with opening first and early and they liked it. Bet they want to taste that again. SR's days as the king of fall are over.



Hasn't Sunday River been open a lot more early season days than Killington in recent years?  Not just open for an early day or two.  I seem to remember them being open for a boat load of days when nobody else was.  Or is my memory failing me?


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## skiersleft (Sep 23, 2012)

jaytrem said:


> Hasn't Sunday River been open a lot more early season days than Killington in recent years?  Not just open for an early day or two.  I seem to remember them being open for a boat load of days when nobody else was.  Or is my memory failing me?



Recently, SR has opened and then closed, whereas K opens and stays open. In any case, the point is that the stairway at K is a game changer. It was closer in the past because it was difficult for K to open top to bottom having to blow down to K1. Now that we have the stairway, K can concentrate on blowing snow from 4200ft down to 3600ft. That's a huge advantage for Kton vis a vis SR. And it shows. K just has a natural advantage over SR now. Props to SR for having the will to open, but more often than not, K will have a better window. And that actually allows them to open early and stay open.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 23, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Recently, SR has opened and then closed, whereas K opens and stays open. In any case, the point is that the stairway at K is a game changer. It was closer in the past because it was difficult for K to open top to bottom having to blow down to K1. Now that we have the stairway, K can concentrate on blowing snow from 4200ft down to 3600ft. That's a huge advantage for Kton vis a vis SR. And it shows. K just has a natural advantage over SR now. Props to SR for having the will to open, but more often than not, K will have a better window. And that actually allows them to open early and stay open.


Vermont gets more snow then Sunday River yes we all know that, but I love that Sunday River is having such a long season that is great, but I still will not travel almost 4 hours unless at least hallf the hills are are open.


Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## steamboat1 (Sep 23, 2012)

I think the earliest I ever skied was Nov. 28 so it really doesn't matter to me who opens 1st. 

1st ski day planned this year with friends is Sat. Dec. 1. I'll probably go up myself a day or 2 early so I might be skiing in Nov. again this year.


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## Vortex (Sep 24, 2012)

Love These. It will be a couple of hours either way most likely.

 I was the first down Sunday River last year.    My avatar was the picture in the paper.

 K has all the advantages. Sunday River does what ever it can to get open. Both make good runs at it. Sr does not have the early season base to need to open midweek.

 K seems to have enough business to open early midweek. 

 SR skiesr seem to have little concern about the early mid week closures.   More talk by those not there about this, than those at Sunday River.  See all on the hill in Oct.   The Phoenix?House and Well has events planned the last weekend of Oct.  I will be there. Maybe earlier.


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## oakapple (Sep 24, 2012)

Has there ever been a year when Sunday River had more _total_ early-season days open than Killington? Aside from bragging rights, I don't see a whole lot of meaningful benefit if you open first, but then promptly close up shop again.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2012)

The winter prior to the Stairway being installed at K?  IIRC the Stairway was put in because Killington wasn't able to open until after Thanksgiving weekend the prior year.  I think Sunday River was the only place in the east that had November skiing that season.


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## Vortex (Sep 24, 2012)

SR Skiers are happy with what is going on. It Sells passes, and Real Estate.  I like Oct and Early November turns.  This is done to keep pass holder happy, At least a large part of it.  SR is usually top to bottom a few days after opening too.


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## bzrperfspec77 (Sep 24, 2012)

It was my first year last year looking for early season tracks and I appreciated Killington being open on November 1st! When we were snowed in (Berkshires - My house had 20 inches) and no power at work, My buddy and I drove up to Killington and got 11/1/11 tickets! Pretty cool deal, wish I got an October ticket, but that is by far the earliest for me... I will be watching again this year which resort opens first! Great bragging rights and something to do while waiting for others to open!


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## Riverskier (Sep 24, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> It opened before SR because they are in a better position than SR to open early and stay open. SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact. The only reason why SR competes is because they have the will to open as soon as possible and paint the trails super thin and close right after they open if that's what it takes. K, on the other hand, takes a more conservative approach. They will open first if they can do so with a quality product and if they can open and stay open. If not, they will open second. But they have better tools to get it done earlier than SR. It's just a matter of will.
> 
> And since I'm an optimist, I think they will open first again for two reasons. First, because they can and they have the advantage over SR in terms of elevation and temperatures. Second, because they tasted what comes with opening first and early and they liked it. Bet they want to taste that again. SR's days as the king of fall are over.



A few things: 

1) Cannonist is right about last year. They opened on the same day. When K announced they would open at 10:00, SR announced they would open at 10:01. It was a respectful gesture after Irene. That day SR actually started loading the lift at their usual opening time of 8:00, but the "official" opening time was 10:01. It doesn't matter anyway, the same day is tie.

2) SR does not paint the trails. They put down a good base on T2 and in my experince rock skis aren't required.

3) SR does not close right after they open. They utilize a weekends only operating schedule early season. It makes sense from a business perspective, and in my experience, most SR regulars (myself included) don't care. Sure, some mid week passholders complain, but most people ski weekends anyway, and I don't know too many people who want to burn vacation days to ski one trail in October.

4) You are correct that K has a huge elevation advantage (about 1500 feet) and could win a race to open 9 times out of 10. I am not sure anybody would really argue that point. That said, SR skiers can sit back and know that as soon as there is an 18 hour window (this happened around 10/12 back in 2009) of below freezing temps that SR will fire up the guns and open. I think most people would agree that the jury is still out on how aggressive K is willing to be.

5) Personally I don't care who opens first. I am just excited to know that based on the last few years, I will likely be skiing at SR in a month!


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## skiersleft (Sep 24, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> A few things:
> 
> 3) SR does not close right after they open. They utilize a weekends only operating schedule early season.



My point exactly. They open and then close right after they open.


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## snowmonster (Sep 24, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> 5) Personally I don't care who opens first. I am just excited to know that based on the last few years, I will likely be skiing at SR in a month!



QFT.

However, why wait a month? Any Sunday River skier worth his salt know that, after Columbus Day, it's game on. Remember October 15, 2009!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2012)

cannonist said:


> The only reason killington opened first last year was because SR allowed it. It was a respectful gesture after hurricane Irene. It wont happen again.





skiersleft said:


> It opened before SR because they are in a better position than SR to open early and stay open. SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact.



Sorry skiersleft, but your version is revisionist history. Cannonist got the facts right. They let Killington merely a few minutes before. It had nothing to do with what you had said. Now Killington *used* to be able to open because of their set-up, but not so much anymore.  Yes they have the staircase, etc., but that is a recent phenomenon when considering that ASC took out the Summit Double and replaced it with K-1 several years ago and, consequently, ended early skiing.  

And regarding the point about SR "closing after it opens," or the argument that "because they are only open weekends it doesn't count," seems to me to be quibbling over minutia. In fact, I recall that Killington of both the later years of ASC and the current management used the "we are only going to open when we can stay open everyday" argument to justify opening much later than other folks. The bottom line is that folks want to be able to ski as soon as they can and over the past few years Boyne/SR have been going after it.


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## Riverskier (Sep 24, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> My point exactly. They open and then close right after they open.



Not sure if you are a mid week skier, a K homer hell bent on titles, or you are simply in the small minority of (coincidently mostly K skiers) that cares more about "first to operate 7 days a week" than "first to open". Hey, whatever floats your boat. By your logic though, places like Mt Abram and Magic that only operate certain days of the week, never open for the season!


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## Riverskier (Sep 24, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> QFT.
> 
> However, why wait a month? Any Sunday River skier worth his salt know that, after Columbus Day, it's game on. Remember October 15, 2009!



Oh I remember, I was there, and I would be again! Just trying to keep my expectations in check.


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## snowmonster (Sep 24, 2012)

^ Attaboy!

And as for the raging "first to open" debate, I remember one year when a case of beer made its way from central Vermont to western Maine. It was accompanied by all sorts of statements regarding the quality of the snow and customer expectations, blabbity-blah-blah. Whatever. All that mattered was we were carving that afternoon and that beer tasted good.


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## skiersleft (Sep 24, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Sorry skiersleft, but your version is revisionist history. Cannonist got the facts right. They let Killington merely a few minutes before. It had nothing to do with what you had said. Now Killington *used* to be able to open because of their set-up, but not so much anymore.  Yes they have the staircase, etc., but that is a recent phenomenon when considering that ASC took out the Summit Double and replaced it with K-1 several years ago and, consequently, ended early skiing.
> 
> And regarding the point about SR "closing after it opens," or the argument that "because they are only open weekends it doesn't count," seems to me to be quibbling over minutia. In fact, I recall that Killington of both the later years of ASC and the current management used the "we are only going to open when we can stay open everyday" argument to justify opening much later than other folks. The bottom line is that folks want to be able to ski as soon as they can and over the past few years Boyne/SR have been going after it.



1. Killington's setup today (and since the stairway) is superior to SR's. No one debates this, so I hope you don't. The stairway gives Killington an evident advantage over SR. And that's why they can now easily beat SR if they are so inclined. 

2. Assuming both open the same day (as they did last year...although Killington did open earlier), it is obviously better to open and stay open a la K than to open and close a la SR. This is simply not debatable. And last year K opened and stayed open. 

3. K will do the same this year. Open first. And then stay open. Stairway is a game changer. SR days as king of fall are numbered. 

4. SR paints the trails early season. That's why they have to close after they open. If they had a solid base, they would stay open. 

5. The only real threat to K this year is Woodbury, as TT431 pointed out.


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## AdironRider (Sep 24, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> A few things:
> 
> 1) Cannonist is right about last year. They opened on the same day. When K announced they would open at 10:00, SR announced they would open at 10:01. It was a respectful gesture after Irene. That day SR actually started loading the lift at their usual opening time of 8:00, but the "official" opening time was 10:01. It doesn't matter anyway, the same day is tie.
> 
> ...



There is no homer bias in this at all. 

SR has never opened with a similar quality product to K. Never. Ive skied them both on opening weekends multiple times. 

Look, its cool SR does what they do, and it keeps their clientel happy, which is the most important thing. This is great for skiers as a whole. 

You say it doesnt matter when they opened because of Irene, but you write a whole paragraph about how technically they were first. 

They do just put a smattering on a half a trail, and it shows. Numerous posters here have commented on this fact. Furthermore, Killington to open to their stairway has to blow many times over the amount of available terrain T2 opens with. 

The jury is only out with the types of Highway Star. Killington has consistently had the longest season in the East for years now (days open total). To say they haven't been agressive is just not true.


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## Gilligan (Sep 24, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> There is no homer bias in this at all.
> 
> SR has never opened with a similar quality product to K. Never. Ive skied them both on opening weekends multiple times.
> 
> ...


+1


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## skiersleft (Sep 24, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> +1



+243


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## Riverskier (Sep 24, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> There is no homer bias in this at all.
> 
> SR has never opened with a similar quality product to K. Never. Ive skied them both on opening weekends multiple times.
> 
> ...



Actually, there is no bias in my post. I haven't skied K on opening weekend, but based on pictures they do appear to offer a better product on opening weekend, so no argument there. I only addressed the Irene thing, because SL said they opened earlier because they are in "better position", which is BS. I don't agree that they just put a smattering on half a trail. I have found the base to be pretty good early season, and I have been there every October weekend they have been open the past 5 years. That is obviously just an opinion, and others can certainly disagree, but it is not based on homerism; rather my actual experience. More snow to open at K, no disagreement. I also don't disagree that they have had the longest season in terms of total days.

My only real points are 1) Sunday River will open as soon as they possibly can. That is nice to know as a jonesin SR skier. K has yet to prove that committment. 2) I ski 90% of the time on weekends, 100% early season. Therefore I don't give a crap how many days SR is open, I care how many weekends. I would trade one extra weekend day in October for 10 mid week days in November. I have found that MOST people agree with that sentiment, but it is just an opinion.


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## Nick (Sep 24, 2012)

i just can't wait to ski


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## farlep99 (Sep 24, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Both areas are soul less so who cares?



+1


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## Vortex (Sep 24, 2012)

I have not made opening day at k in over 5 years.  I can't comment on what I have not seen, nor can I say what the conditions are. 
 My point, I have made opening day, well the  first full day for the last 5 years at Sunday River. .... Yes its a partial trail, but to call in inferior conditions really can only be said by those who skied it.  Not many saying that it was bad...  who have actually  been there. Was it mid winter, no was it fun.  I think I had fun.   Cracks me up the only people worried about the closing are the ones not making turns there.  Competition is good for us all.  We have Oct turns again.  5 years ago I never thought they would be back again.


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## andyzee (Sep 24, 2012)

Mountain Creek will beat them all!


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## ScottySkis (Sep 24, 2012)

In NY last year Platty was the first to open.


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## andyzee (Sep 24, 2012)

Yep, forgot that. Maybe they'll go for the gold this year!


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## Gilligan (Sep 24, 2012)

Scotty said:


> In NY last year Platty was the first to open.



Yep, first to open and first to close. Just like Sunday River.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> By your logic though, places like Mt Abram and Magic that only operate certain days of the week, never open for the season!



never mind other areas, by that same logic, 20% of Killington's terrain never opens for the season.  i.e. Pico 

And regarding who puts out the better early season product? Early season conditions are so dependent on weather that I don't really think quantifiable statements can be made on the quality of the early season product.  Sunday River and Killington are pretty much where I ski in sometimes October (2009) through November and into early December.  I've had great days and crappy days at both.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> 1. Killington's setup today (and since the stairway) is superior to SR's. No one debates this, so I hope you don't. The stairway gives Killington an evident advantage over SR. And that's why they can now easily beat SR if they are so inclined.
> 
> 2. Assuming both open the same day (as they did last year...although Killington did open earlier), it is obviously better to open and stay open a la K than to open and close a la SR. This is simply not debatable. And last year K opened and stayed open.
> 
> ...



You sound like you just stepped off of a time machine from the Killington of 1990 or so. Of course Killington has a higher elevation. Of course Pres set it up initially for a long season. Of course that was the Killington brand. And, as you said, with the "stair case" they can have a long season *if they want to*. From what we have seen overall, they will do it if the weather and such mean that it is a good business decision. This is much different than in the past. And it is not as good as it used to be with the Summit Double. Best set-up probably for early and late season skiing though? Sugarbush North (Mount Ellen) but alas that is not an early season place anymore. 

As to the claim that SR paints the trails, they both do. I've skied very thin conditions at both places early season. I disagree though that SR closes because of thin base...it is because of no demand. And FWIW Upper T2 usually has a good base on it...as does North Ridge/Glades...it is the bottom that is the problem. 

And I think that your "SR days as king of fall are numbered" line is laughable because Killington had that title for many, many years until they lost it and they've never really regained it. SR always was the underdog, even back when. The fact that there is a debate just shows how far it has fallen. Killington was *the place* for many years. Sunday River, Sugarbush, and even Waterville Valley chased them and tried to give them a fight, but in the end Killington beat itself.  Today it is just a different brand. Nothing wrong with it, but it is the truth. 

And glad you like Killington. Keep the threads coming because it passes the time until skiing comes.


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## riverc0il (Sep 24, 2012)

Another interesting fact about last year's tie to open is that K opened only after receiving a foot of snow and then turning on the guns on top of the natural. SR didn't receive that benefit but still got open. Even though SR has a lower elevation, they also have the fire power and the will to blow just enough to open if they have a full day of snow making. K wants more time to make a better product. T2 is never edge to edge first day. But that is actually preferable by me, it makes skier's right have a more natural and wild feel to it (bumps, flora, undulations, not groomed, etc). It is a different philosophy. SR will always have the edge despite the lower elevation because of its approach. I'm cool with that because they also charge half as much as K for essentially the same product with a smaller crowd (you just have to put up with the up/download issue -- i.e. get there very early or very late).


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2012)

In regards to the value, I think Killington must have realized they were losing some early season business to SR due to their higher price.  I don't recall them offering the twofer deal until prior to the past couple of seasons.  Now it's pretty easy to ski K for $30 through early December.


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## Harvey (Sep 24, 2012)

Scotty said:


> In NY last year Platty was the first to open.



Never forget!

Platty's got the soul in SPADES.


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## mister moose (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> SR can't open earlier than K and stay open because K's elevation advantage is too much for SR to counteract. So, on a normal year, K will have a better window for snowmaking than SR now that K has the stairway. That's a fact.



Nope.

There are seasons where warm air stays entrenched, and nobody makes snow.  Then the first big cold front arrives, and SR can open overnight whereas K cannot.  That happens about 40% of the time.  Put down the Kool Aid, and start watching the weather.


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## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Nope.
> 
> There are seasons where warm air stays entrenched, and nobody makes snow.  Then the first big cold front arrives, and SR can open overnight whereas K cannot.  That happens about 40% of the time.  Put down the Kool Aid, and start watching the weather.



1. It doesn't happen 40% of the time.

2. Even if it does, by your own numbers it is still the case that K has a better shot at opening early in a "normal year" (read: in 60% of the years according to your made up stat).

3. Do you have a chest full of bogus stats at home or do you just make them up on the fly?


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## mister moose (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> 1. It doesn't happen 40% of the time.
> 
> 2. Even if it does, by your own numbers it is still the case that K has a better shot at opening early in a "normal year" (read: in 60% of the years according to your made up stat).
> 
> 3. Do you have a chest full of bogus stats at home or do you just make them up on the fly?



1. I said "about" 40%. That's not a stat. That's an estimate based on decades of skiing. A stat is based on facts, like who carried the first public skier last year up a chairlift. Better check your own "stats". 

2. You said, "that's why they can now easily beat SR if they are so inclined." To which I said it is still weather dependent.

I have a case of Long Trail that says SR will open before Killington this season, meaning the first lift served publicly available ski run. Not because I'm sure it will happen, but because it very well might happen, and I'm willing to give you a (approximate) 60/40 advantage just to have the chance of getting a case of beer based on a skiersleft proclamation.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 25, 2012)

And the first wager in this pissing match has been offered.


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## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2012)

mister moose said:


> 1. I said "about" 40%. That's not a stat. That's an estimate based on decades of skiing. A stat is based on facts, like who carried the first public skier last year up a chairlift. Better check your own "stats".
> 
> 2. You said, "that's why they can now easily beat SR if they are so inclined." To which I said it is still weather dependent.
> 
> I have a case of Long Trail that says SR will open before Killington this season, meaning the first lift served publicly available ski run. Not because I'm sure it will happen, but because it very well might happen, and I'm willing to give you a (approximate) 60/40 advantage just to have the chance of getting a case of beer based on a skiersleft proclamation.



Wager accepted, *IF* you agree to drinking the first bottle of the case with me at a place to be determined by you, my friend. We can toast to an awesome ski season. Are we on?


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## Newpylong (Sep 25, 2012)

This argument is ridiculous. Sunday River beat the snot out of Killington until they built the stairway. Now the playing field is more level. It could go either way, depending on many conditions. Killington has the elevation advantage. Sunday River has the ideal setup for opening in 24 hours due to snowmaking, lift and trail config. So each has its advantages but they could be offset by the unknown.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 25, 2012)

Sunday River opens ahead of Killington prompting Highway Star to launch his annual *Killington = EPIC FAIL!* thread.


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## St. Bear (Sep 25, 2012)

If Killington beats SR this year, I'll buy myself a beer.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 25, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Sunday River opens ahead of Killington prompting Highway Star to launch his annual *Killington = EPIC FAIL!* thread.



Yep.



St. Bear said:


> If Killington beats SR this year, I'll buy myself a beer.



I like that idea.


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## slatham (Sep 25, 2012)

My 2 cents.....

If there is a strong cold front that comes through, as it pertains to being open, elevation doesn't play that much of a role. Hence Woodbury in CT can open. Its firepower and will power that make the difference. On the other hand, if its a weak to moderate cold spell, the 1,500' of extra elevation that Killington has can make all the difference in the world, so Killington would win. Where the elevation really comes into play is keeping the base, and being above the rain/snow line during early season storms, which often sets up at 2,500 to 3,000 feet.

My bet is a tie. We get a solid cold front, they both crank it out and open on the same day (with maybe some company??) like last year.

And regarding the ideal set up for early, high elevation skiing? Sugarbush's Mt Ellen wins this hands down. 1,100' of vertical, including FIS, all above 3,000', serviced by a Quad with an easy download on a HSQ. But alas there is no will.........

THINK SNOW!


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## Ski the Moguls (Sep 25, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Sunday River opens ahead of Killington prompting Highway Star to launch his annual *Killington = EPIC FAIL!* thread.


You make it sound like HS only starts ONE of those threads each year.


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## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Wager accepted, *IF* you agree to drinking the first bottle of the case with me at a place to be determined by you, my friend. We can toast to an awesome ski season. Are we on?




Silence from Da Moose is deafening. Are you in or not?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 25, 2012)

And regarding the opening and then immediately closing argument: why is not mention made of Woodbury?  I recall them doing that and closing for weeks until cold weather settles in for good.


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## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> And regarding the opening and then immediately closing argument: why is not mention made of Woodbury?  I recall them doing that and closing for weeks until cold weather settles in for good.



Yes. And they suck for that. Just like SR sucks for opening and closing as well.


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## St. Bear (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Yes. And they suck for that. Just like SR sucks for opening and closing as well.



Yeah, they suck!  Less skiing for all!



Wait, what?


----------



## Puck it (Sep 25, 2012)

Come on, we all know what mountain has the best set up currently for opening early. But it will never happen. Wish it would though.


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## mister moose (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Silence from Da Moose is deafening. Are you in or not?



Of course I'm in, I made the offer.  

There is life other than the internet you know.  Sheesh, you gave me what, 3 hours, and declared the silence deafening?


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Of course I'm in, I made the offer.
> 
> There is life other than the internet you know.  Sheesh, you gave me what, 3 hours, and declared the silence deafening?



I had to strike while the iron was hot. Good. In 5 weeks, give or take several days, I shall be drinking a beer with you from the case that you bought me after losing the bet.

What happens, BTW, if for some weird reason they both open the same day?


----------



## St. Bear (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> What happens, BTW, if for some weird reason they both open the same day?



Pretty obvious that you both buy each other a beer.  Duh.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Yes. And they suck for that. Just like SR sucks for opening and closing as well.



Maybe not you, but there has been plenty of bitching in recent years by K regulars when SR opened and then closed for midweeks and K has sat idle only willing to turn on the guns when they think they can open 7 days a week full time.  

I'll take the Sunday River approach any day of the week.  It means that they will open as soon as possible.  K has not done that in many years. I don't really care that they make the financial decision to close during the midweeks prior to Thanksgiving.   I rarely if ever hear their pass holders bitch about it either.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe not you, but there has been plenty of bitching in recent years by K regulars when SR opened and then closed for midweeks and K has sat idle only willing to turn on the guns when they think they can open 7 days a week full time.
> 
> I'll take the Sunday River approach any day of the week.  It means that they will open as soon as possible.  K has not done that in many years. I don't really care that they make the financial decision to close during the midweeks prior to Thanksgiving.   I rarely if ever hear their pass holders bitch about it either.



I agree that it's better to open weekends than not open at all. But you should agree that it's better to open all week than only weekends. Killington will open before SR this year. And when they do, they will open for the season. SR will open later and will then close. You read it here first.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> I agree that it's better to open weekends than not open at all. But you should agree that it's better to open all week than only weekends. Killington will open before SR this year. And when they do, they will open for the season. SR will open later and will then close. You read it here first.



I think I need to check your IP; I smell Highwaystar.  :lol:  

And regarding whether I think it's better to open all week instead of just weekends, that depends.  I don't think Sunday River would be as aggressive as they are in opening early season if they planned on a 7 day a week schedule.  The business simply isn't there because they don't have both the NY and Boston markets to draw from.  

I feel even more strongly about such an operations schedule late season.Personally?  I think more areas should go to a 3-4 day a week schedule some time in April and extend their season by a few weeks as opposed to operating 7 days and closing up shop with great amounts of snow still on the slopes.  As an example, I'd much rather see Killington drop down to a 4 day weekend schedule after April 15th and operate through the middle of May, than run 7 days a week and close up shop May 1st or earlier.


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## mister moose (Sep 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> What happens, BTW, if for some weird reason they both open the same day?



Who ever sends the first paying (pass or ticket) skier up the hill first.  Time counts.  If Killington is grooming it out until 10am and SR opens at 8, SR wins.  If they both open at the exact same time, there is no winner.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I feel even more strongly about such an operations schedule late season.Personally?  I think more areas should go to a 3-4 day a week schedule some time in April and extend their season by a few weeks as opposed to operating 7 days and closing up shop with great amounts of snow still on the slopes.  As an example, I'd much rather see Killington drop down to a 4 day weekend schedule after April 15th and operate through the middle of May, than run 7 days a week and close up shop May 1st or earlier.


Last year when K closed late April there wasn't much left. Upper/lower Skylark & lower Bittersweet were open but washed out Sat ( they were still alright Fri.). They had to farm snow from the edges of the Superstar headwall to keep a narrow section down the middle going & there was a section lower down that was dicey. I don't think only being open weekends would have made any difference. Yes I've skied Supe when it was worse late season but having people hiking down the headwall & part of the lower steep section in ski boots carrying their ski's is dangerous & not worth the liability to the ski area in my opinion.


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## Gilligan (Sep 25, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> Pretty obvious that you both buy each other a beer.  Duh.



Pretty obvious that they are wagering a *case*, not just *a* beer. Duh.


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## riverc0il (Sep 25, 2012)

I don't think any one can fault K for closing when they did last year. I agree, walking down the headwall of Superstar in ski boots is pushing too far for being open to the general public. But before last year, K has had a disturbing trend of not making the effort to push as far as possible. The worst was when they called the season an end a week early due to weather (with Skyelark and Superstart still edge to edge) and then they got a foot of snow and still wouldn't open. Here is hoping the new Pres realizes the bad vibes that type of approach causes and looks at early and late season as the loss leader that they are... a minimal trip to the red for a sustainable run in the black.


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## St. Bear (Sep 25, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Pretty obvious that they are wagering a *case*, not just *a* beer. Duh.



Pretty obvious the payouts are reduced in the event of a tie.  Duh.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 25, 2012)

I can also remember skiing K the 1st week of May & still having Superstar chair, K-1 gondola & the Snowdon quad running with most of the trails off them still open & pretty well covered.

Like I said in an earlier post I couldn't care less who opens 1st but I love my spring skiing. If they still have enough snow to keep it open they should.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 25, 2012)

This thread just keeps going and going and going.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 25, 2012)

Scotty said:


> This thread just keeps going and going and going.



LOL... & it probably will for at least another month.


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## Gilligan (Sep 26, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> Pretty obvious the payouts are reduced in the event of a tie.  Duh.



 Guess it was not obvious to them since the payouts are now reduced all the way to zero in the event of a tie. No worries, I am sure they appreciated your help on the matter.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 26, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Last year when K closed late April there wasn't much left. Upper/lower Skylark & lower Bittersweet were open but washed out Sat ( they were still alright Fri.). They had to farm snow from the edges of the Superstar headwall to keep a narrow section down the middle going & there was a section lower down that was dicey. I don't think only being open weekends would have made any difference. Yes I've skied Supe when it was worse late season but having people hiking down the headwall & part of the lower steep section in ski boots carrying their ski's is dangerous & not worth the liability to the ski area in my opinion.



Definitely agree that last year K extended their season pretty much as far as they could.  There have been several in recent years though where the decision to close was for financial reasons, not snow.  If running a reduced schedule allows a mountain to mitigate some of those financial losses and keep going a bit longer, that's what I'm for.  Essentially what Jay Peak has been doing the past several seasons.


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## SkiFanE (Sep 26, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe not you, but there has been plenty of bitching in recent years by K regulars when SR opened and then closed for midweeks and K has sat idle only willing to turn on the guns when they think they can open 7 days a week full time.
> 
> I'll take the Sunday River approach any day of the week.  It means that they will open as soon as possible.  K has not done that in many years. I don't really care that they make the financial decision to close during the midweeks prior to Thanksgiving.   I rarely if ever hear their pass holders bitch about it either.



Maybe more K pass holders are local?  How many people are taking a midweek ski vacation in Oct/early Nov?  I don't get it.  Opening weekend at SR has diehards from all over, Penn, Canada, NY...I feel lucky I don't have to travel 8 hrs to get there for a half trail lol. I'll take SR's approach.


----------



## St. Bear (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Guess it was not obvious to them since the payouts are now reduced all the way to zero in the event of a tie. No worries, I am sure they appreciated your help on the matter.



It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.


----------



## Nick (Sep 26, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Sunday River opens ahead of Killington prompting Highway Star to launch his annual *Killington = EPIC FAIL!* thread.



:lol:


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> Maybe more K pass holders are local?  How many people are taking a midweek ski vacation in Oct/early Nov?  I don't get it.  Opening weekend at SR has diehards from all over, Penn, Canada, NY...I feel lucky I don't have to travel 8 hrs to get there for a half trail lol. I'll take SR's approach.



There are a lot of second homeowners at Killington who are diehards.


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## Nick (Sep 26, 2012)

PS, everyone wins when beer is involved :beer:


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## JimG. (Sep 26, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Like I said in an earlier post I couldn't care less who opens 1st but I love my spring skiing. If they still have enough snow to keep it open they should.



While I would like to agee with you, in today's world of ski area finances this statement just doesn't wash anymore. Snow left on the ground is irrelevant to the operator, the numbers of fannies sitting on lifts and at the bar is what drives the decision to stay open or not. 

While most of us here would go ski anywhere there was snow left that was open and running, we also need to face the fact that we are a very small subset of the skiing population and believe it or not, we don't matter in these decisions. Most of us paid for a season pass right after our ski area closed and since then, we are not important to the operator. The ski area already has our money, and because we ski 50 days a year they look at us as the skiers who paid too little on average per ski day. And that's it.

The vast majority of skiers have stopped skiing and are playing golf by the end of March.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 26, 2012)

We keep moving the goal posts.

The game, boys and girls, is first to open. It's pretty simple. First one who opens wins. It's not first to open -- then stay open the whole season. That would be moving the goal posts. Races and games should be simple. You can't layer it with so many rules and exceptions. IIRC, K was all set to open early in 2010, even the SR regulars had conceded it. Then, SR pumped snow for 18 hours and opened to beat K. And yeah, conceding defeat by sending a case of beer then saying that you lost because you wanted to offer a superior product is hypocrisy. That's losing then criticizing the other team because they won ugly. Heck, I'd rather win ugly than have a moral victory. 

Could SR have remain open for the week after opening? I'm sure they could. But, why spin the lifts when there's no one there? That would be pissing away good money.  

And another thing, I'm glad that K went as late as they could last year. Could SR have done so too? Based on what we were skiing on that last day, definitely. There was enough snow that there were pipes and jumps all over. We even had naked teeners doing group backflips in the park. And, oh yeah, it was free. 

Lastly, why is it that SR skiers don't criticize SR management for opening early then closing midweek? We're a happy group.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 26, 2012)

JimG. said:


> While I would like to agee with you, in today's world of ski area finances this statement just doesn't wash anymore. Snow left on the ground is irrelevant to the operator, the numbers of fannies sitting on lifts and at the bar is what drives the decision to stay open or not.
> 
> While most of us here would go ski anywhere there was snow left that was open and running, we also need to face the fact that we are a very small subset of the skiing population and believe it or not, we don't matter in these decisions. Most of us paid for a season pass right after our ski area closed and since then, we are not important to the operator. The ski area already has our money, and because we ski 50 days a year they look at us as the skiers who paid too little on average per ski day. And that's it.
> 
> The vast majority of skiers have stopped skiing and are playing golf by the end of March.



Didn't look to empty to me on the last Sat. at K last year.

And yes there were plenty of day tickets sold, not just season pass holders skiing.


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## Gilligan (Sep 26, 2012)

JimG. said:


> While I would like to agee with you, in today's world of ski area finances this statement just doesn't wash anymore. Snow left on the ground is irrelevant to the operator, the numbers of fannies sitting on lifts and at the bar is what drives the decision to stay open or not.
> 
> While most of us here would go ski anywhere there was snow left that was open and running, we also need to face the fact that we are a very small subset of the skiing population and believe it or not, *we don't matter in these decisions*. Most of us paid for a season pass right after our ski area closed and since then, we are not important to the operator. The ski area already has our money, and because we ski 50 days a year they look at us as the skiers who paid too little on average per ski day. And that's it.
> 
> The vast majority of skiers have stopped skiing and are playing golf by the end of March.


For a great many Killington skiers, the decision of whether or not to buy that season pass is driven by the length of the ski season. We should, and I believe we do, matter in these decisions. That long season has always been one of K's greatest selling points.


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## JimG. (Sep 26, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> It's pretty simple. First one who opens wins.



Wins what? Do they get more ski area visits than other areas because they opened first? Or, do they win because their skiers are a "happy group"? A keg of beer would serve that purpose for alot less money.

Just as I have grown weary of the endless end of season criticism, I am equally tired of the silly first to open contest.  

Here's an ice bath for you...Woodbury in CT beat everyone to first opening many of the past 10 seasons or so. Is that a great place to ski?


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## JimG. (Sep 26, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Didn't look to empty to me on the last Sat. at K last year.
> 
> And yes there were plenty of day tickets sold, not just season pass holders skiing.



I didn't say it was empty. I mean, looking at your photo it sure ain't crowded either.

Look, I would love to ski into June like the old days. And we don't make the decision how many is enough skiers to make it profitable. You and I might think that is plenty enough to stay open, but clearly the powers that be disagreed.


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## JimG. (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> For a great many Killington skiers, the decision of whether or not to buy that season pass is driven by the length of the ski season. We should, and I believe we do, matter in these decisions. That long season has always been one of K's greatest selling points.



If we mattered as you believe, Killington would still stay open through May into June. And they would beat SR to open even if it meant crushing a billion ice cubes on a trail to open it first. 

K's greatest selling point is that it is the best big mountain skiing close to major east coast metro areas. And that's the way it should be sold nowadays since the Pres Smith days are long gone. That beast is dead.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> For a great many Killington skiers, the decision of whether or not to buy that season pass is driven by the length of the ski season. We should, and I believe we do, matter in these decisions. That long season has always been one of K's greatest selling points.




But we know that the season length has in fact made many people go elsewhere because it is not as long as it was.


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## JimG. (Sep 26, 2012)

Scotty said:


> This thread just keeps going and going and going.



Great isn't it?

This is nothing Scotty, there have been epic threads in the past all inspired by Killington.

Did I mention to you how much I enjoy stirring the pot in these threads?

Some of the best ski conversation on the web.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

JimG. said:


> If we mattered as you believe, Killington would still stay open through May into June. And they would beat SR to open even if it meant crushing a billion ice cubes on a trail to open it first.
> 
> K's greatest selling point is that it is the best big mountain skiing close to major east coast metro areas. And that's the way it should be sold nowadays since the Pres Smith days are long gone. That beast is dead.




Exactly. Different business approach and model now. It is what it is.  Every year we discuss and debate this issue.  POWDR is running the place as they see best even though folks may not agree.


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## riverc0il (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> For a great many Killington skiers, the decision of whether or not to buy that season pass is driven by the length of the ski season.


Since K no longer leads the way early or late season, can you say that is really a factor any more? Folks sticking with Killington are doing so despite the length of the season, not because of it. It has been a long time since K had a really long season like it used to and it is getting beat at both ends excepting last year's first to open tie.


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## riverc0il (Sep 26, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Here's an ice bath for you...Woodbury in CT beat everyone to first opening many of the past 10 seasons or so. Is that a great place to ski?


That is not true. Maybe a few times, not "many".


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Since K no longer leads the way early or late season, can you say that is really a factor any more? Folks sticking with Killington are doing so despite the length of the season, not because of it. It has been a long time since K had a really long season like it used to and it is getting beat at both ends excepting last year's first to open tie.



I agree.  The one thing that I think we have all concluded is that, considering that they generally open and stay open, is that they still have more ski days than other places.  But absolutely....Sunday River generally opens earlier, Sugarloaf and Jay stay open no later.


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## JimG. (Sep 26, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> That is not true. Maybe a few times, not "many".



OK Mr. Hair Splitter...at least you admit they did "beat" other ski areas to open a few times in the past 10 years.

Can you tell me what they "won" for opening first? It certainly was not worldwide acclaim and a 300% increase in season pass sales. 

I hope you realize all of this is very tongue in cheek...someone else said the first to open wins. Just trying to figure out the prize.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> That is not true. Maybe a few times, not "many".



I can only recall once that they beat everyone...maybe twice.  Anyone know for sure?


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## Gilligan (Sep 26, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Since K no longer leads the way early or late season, can you say that is really a factor any more? Folks sticking with Killington are doing so despite the length of the season, not because of it. It has been a long time since K had a really long season like it used to and it is getting beat at both ends excepting last year's first to open tie.



You do not think Killington is the best early and late season skiing? Do you read the trip reports? K's conditions generally still win at both ends. K has settled of late to have the longest season (total days open) by just a little bit. Yes, in the old days they would win by weeks, but now they still win by days. Thank god for the likes of Sunday River pushing K as hard as they do.

Sunday River's new motto should be: We try harder, because we have to.


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## Gilligan (Sep 26, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Great isn't it?
> 
> This is nothing Scotty, there have been epic threads in the past all inspired by Killington.
> 
> ...


So we have one moderator admitting he is a troll stirring the pot, and another mod pretending to know what's going on from his base out in Utah. Typical AlpineZone BS.


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## powhunter (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> You do not think Killington is the best early and late season skiing? Do you read the trip reports? K's conditions generally still win at both ends. K has settled of late to have the longest season (total days open) by just a little bit. Yes, in the old days they would win by weeks, but now they still win by days. Thank god for the likes of Sunday River pushing K as hard as they do.
> 
> Sunday River's new motto should be: We try harder, because we have to.



Spot on Man!!

Steveo


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## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> So we have one moderator admitting he is a troll stirring the pot, and another mod pretending to know what's going on from his base out in Utah. Typical AlpineZone BS.




You're new here. I've only been in Utah for about a year. I grew up in Vermont and lived there for most of my life.  I've been a passholder at Sugarbush, Jay, Burke, Killington, and many others so I do have a good idea, still, about what is going on.


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## riverc0il (Sep 26, 2012)

JimG. said:


> OK Mr. Hair Splitter...at least you admit they did "beat" other ski areas to open a few times in the past 10 years.
> 
> Can you tell me what they "won" for opening first? It certainly was not worldwide acclaim and a 300% increase in season pass sales.
> 
> I hope you realize all of this is very tongue in cheek...someone else said the first to open wins. Just trying to figure out the prize.


I never said anything about winning. Though I think the poster that said that just means "winning" as in "they get first to open honors." Regardless of how you feel, there certainly is buzz and press generated by first to open and many enjoy that type of buzz.


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## riverc0il (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> You do not think Killington is the best early and late season skiing? Do you read the trip reports? K's conditions generally still win at both ends. K has settled of late to have the longest season (total days open) by just a little bit. Yes, in the old days they would win by weeks, but now they still win by days. Thank god for the likes of Sunday River pushing K as hard as they do.
> 
> Sunday River's new motto should be: We try harder, because we have to.


I don't need to "read the trip reports" because I am out there skiing, both K and SR before, when, and after they open, early and late season, at least a few times per season. I almost always end up at SR during October and early November before K really expands. SR is less crowded, cheaper, and a better experience for my money until K gets a good amount of terrain open from Skye to Snowdon. Since they don't push as hard as they used to, it takes a lot longer for me to justify the crowds and money for K. If I am skiing a WROD, there is not much sense in even evaluating quality... a WROD is a WROD. Keep it inexpensive and not crowded and not far away, I'll be there.

Late season... K would have the best offerings if they actually stayed open late. Then again, Jay has a really nice product when they get a good enough base to make it into May. There were a lot of K refuges at Jay that May... and that link goes to a report posted a week before they actually closed...


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## deadheadskier (Sep 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> You do not think Killington is the best early and late season skiing? Do you read the trip reports? K's conditions generally still win at both ends..



Early season, Killington is in the debate over the past 10 years.

Late season, I don't think so.  I think Jay and Sugarloaf have put forth the better late season product for a long time.  Jay for season length and Sugarloaf for terrain offerings.  On average over the past several years, there are two to three weeks at the end of the season where Killington is running on Superstar, Skyelark and Bittersweet and Sugarloaf still has 20, 30, sometimes 40+ trails open off of the Superquad and Spillway.


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## jaybird (Sep 26, 2012)

Killington will open earlier, again, and will offer consistently better conditions all year long.
Closing latest don't matter as much any more to many.
Once you get past 100 days in a single season, time to kayak.
Think Snow :beer:


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## skiersleft (Sep 26, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Since K no longer leads the way early or late season, can you say that is really a factor any more? Folks sticking with Killington are doing so despite the length of the season, not because of it. It has been a long time since K had a really long season like it used to and it is getting beat at both ends excepting last year's first to open tie.



I really respect your opinion, so I will assume that you were not able to drive home the point that you wished to drive home. 

K regulars most definitely care about what you call "the length of the season". And they also care about opening first and closing last. Note - as I'm sure you do - that these are three different things. 

Killington used to be the king of all three. They had the longest season in the east. They also opened first. They also were the last to close. Today they no longer are assured to open first. SR has opened first more often the last several years. But usually K is close behind. Today it's no longer the case that they always close last. Jay and Sugarloaf have taken the title often as of late. K is usually close behind. 

However, Killington continues to indisputably have the longest season in the east. Easily. And that's what you were talikng about. I repeat your words - "length of the season".

Do passholders care - as you asked - about the length of season at K? They most definitely do. One of the reasons people buy a pass there is they know they will ski early in November and late into April. No other ski season in the east consistently offers that. 

Did their season use to be longer? Yes. Do many people wish it were still that way? Yes. Does SR open earlier sometimes? Yes. Do other ski resorts close later? Yes. Does anyone else in the east have a longer season? NO. Never had. Does that matter to K pass holders? Yes. Are first to open last to close bragging rights cool? Of course. Would we rather have skied more days than others have skied at any other hill? Definitely. Killington - with all its flaws- is still the king of eastern skiing. As you call it - their "length of the season" is unmatched in the east. And has been that way for decades. Does it matter for a substantial number of people? In a word - YES.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 27, 2012)

For those who know K yes they were slacking for a few years. Last year they blew a substantial base on the signature trails off the superstar lift. The top of the headwall on Supe had more snow than I can remember. It was a hike just to get over it most of the season. Lower Skylark, which is not normally known for late season skiing was right there to the bitter end with abundant snow. K did there job trying to keep late season skiing open but the heat killed them, just like everyone else. Can't blame them for that. 

Not blowing snow all winter on other terrain (especially the Canyon area) is another story which I'm not talking about. If the weather cooperated a little more I think they were pushing for a later season but it just didn't work out because of the exceptionally warm weather late March into April. No one in New England made it to May. I hope they don't get discouraged by what happened to late season skiing last year & push the envelope again this season. 

Without the constant resurfacing they had to do last year just to to keep the majority of the mountain open it would have been another story. And yes thank god the Dew Tour is gone.


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## AndyEich (Sep 27, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> ...Killington continues to indisputably have the longest season in the east. Easily...



Is this true?  I don't have stats at hand, but it seems unlikely to me.  Last year was good for K, but I thought SR beat them at least some of the last several years.  Here's a press release that indicates SR thinks it won in 2010/11:
http://www.sundayriver.com/Corporate/Media/PressReleases/Present/2011/Closing_Date.html


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## Vortex (Sep 27, 2012)

snowmonster said:


> We keep moving the goal posts.
> 
> The game, boys and girls, is first to open. It's pretty simple. First one who opens wins. It's not first to open -- then stay open the whole season. That would be moving the goal posts. Races and games should be simple. You can't layer it with so many rules and exceptions. IIRC, K was all set to open early in 2010, even the SR regulars had conceded it. Then, SR pumped snow for 18 hours and opened to beat K. And yeah, conceding defeat by sending a case of beer then saying that you lost because you wanted to offer a superior product is hypocrisy. That's losing then criticizing the other team because they won ugly. Heck, I'd rather win ugly than have a moral victory.
> 
> ...



You write like a Dean or Law college prof. We will have none of that.   Only thing I would like to add is if there is competition we all win.


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## andyzee (Sep 27, 2012)

AndyEich said:


> Is this true?  I don't have stats at hand, but it seems unlikely to me.  Last year was good for K, but I thought SR beat them at least some of the last several years.  Here's a press release that indicates SR thinks it won in 2010/11:
> http://www.sundayriver.com/Corporate/Media/PressReleases/Present/2011/Closing_Date.html




Yes, but how many days were they open, There is a difference between, span (months) and number of days. Kind of like a marathon runner taking the subway for 10 miles out of the 26 and saying he completed a 26 mile race.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 27, 2012)

andyzee said:


> Yes, but how many days were they open, There is a difference between, span (months) and number of days. Kind of like a marathon runner taking the subway for 10 miles out of the 26 and saying he completed a 26 mile race.




I look at Weekends open mostly early and late season. Some of us have pushed for 3 days weekends.  Can't always get what you want.  Can't complain when you ski in October regularly.  Events get planned around it. 

 Both approaches  are valid marketing points.  

I really on care about how it effects my season. The SR approach gives me the most days on the hill.  I take my vacation days when there is plenty of open terrrian, I. E. mid week non holiday days.  SR mid week plan is perfect for me.  Hard to find a Sr skier who feels different.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> So we have one moderator admitting he is a troll stirring the pot, and another mod pretending to know what's going on from his base out in Utah. Typical AlpineZone BS.



You need to lighten up...stirring the pot and trolling are two completely different things. I'm not attacking anybody or making false statements about ski areas or management. That's trolling. 

All I'm doing is challenging some of the statements and assertions made here. I find some of these to be hilarious. So I'm stimulating conversation. That's called debate.

I'm guessing you don't like to be challenged so you revert to name calling. Very mature.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

JimG. said:


> You need to lighten up...stirring the pot and trolling are two completely different things. I'm not attacking anybody or making false statements about ski areas or management. That's trolling.
> 
> All I'm doing is challenging some of the statements and assertions made here. I find some of these to be hilarious. So I'm stimulating conversation. That's called debate.
> 
> I'm guessing you don't like to be challenged so you revert to name calling. Very mature.



You've been called out for this before by the by.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 27, 2012)

We should bet a six pack of beer for how many pages this thread gets to. I day 420 pages.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

Bob R said:


> You write like a Dean or Law college prof. We will have none of that. Only thing I would like to add is if there is competition we all win.




Hey man, he is the Professor of Powder you know.  And he is bringing that Pow with him to Utah this Christmas!  :lol:


----------



## andyzee (Sep 27, 2012)

Bob R said:


> I look at Weekends open mostly early and late season. Some of us have pushed for 3 days weekends.  Can't always get what you want.  Can't complain when you ski in October regularly.  Events get planned around it.
> 
> Both approaches  are valid marketing points.
> 
> I really on care about how it effects my season. The SR approach gives me the most days on the hill.  I take my vacation days when there is plenty of open terrrian, I. E. mid week non holiday days.  SR mid week plan is perfect for me.  Hard to find a Sr skier who feels different.



Agreed, getting the turns is number 1. In my case that early in the  season it's only weekends anyway. But, just getting into the debate. :lol:


----------



## JimG. (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You've been called out for this before by the by.



A few times yes...all in Killington threads. Doesn't bother me and it certainly won't stop me unless Nick, the site owner, tells me to stop. And if that happens I will out of respect for him, unlike many others I have seen here who continue to post drivel after they were asked to back off.

I'm allowed my opinions too, just like any other forum members. And someone who resorts to name calling to express their displeasure with this simple fact is only displaying for all to see who the real troll is.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

JimG. said:


> A few times yes...all in Killington threads. Doesn't bother me and it certainly won't stop me unless Nick, the site owner, tells me to stop. And if that happens I will out of respect for him, unlike many others I have seen here who continue to post drivel after they were asked to back off.
> 
> I'm allowed my opinions too, just like any other forum members. And someone who resorts to name calling to express their displeasure with this simple fact is only displaying for all to see who the real troll is.



Whatever floats your boat. I'm not one to hold back an opinion either, but perception does sometimes equal reality. But to say you are just stirring the pot kinda implies you think your shit doesnt stink. 

I realize I fit this perception as well.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Whatever floats your boat. I'm not one to hold back an opinion either, but perception does sometimes equal reality. But to say you are just stirring the pot kinda implies you think your shit doesnt stink.
> 
> I realize I fit this perception as well.



Well stated.

I guess we all have our own definitions for these kinds of things. 

Because of this I will try to be more sensitive even though I think this is the most fun you can have on a skiing website.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 27, 2012)

From the Drift.

*Killington Resort will open for the winter season early November.*
Lift hours are 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. midweek and 8:30 a.m. to
4:00 p.m. weekends and peak* days.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> So we have one moderator admitting he is a troll stirring the pot, and another mod pretending to know what's going on from his base out in Utah. Typical AlpineZone BS.



Can a mod not have an opinion just because they are a mod? 

I think Jim said he was stirring the pot but reading his post it's more just him putting his opinion out there. From what I've seen on the boards here, I don't think there is any way to talk about Killington WITHOUT stirring the pot :lol:

From my perspective, I think Killington is a great mountain and have always enjoyed skiing there. It's where I grew up skiing. It's where I held season passes every year in college in the late 90's / early 2000's.  It's been a few years since I have been there but I think as others have mentioned on a ski board like this you are going to have the hardcore skiers. I mean we have people that put in 60+ days a year on the board here - that's a LOT of skiing. 

Your typical non-hardcore skier that makes up 80% of the skiing population doesn't start thinking about skiing until around Christmas and stops thinking about skiing the first day that the temperature hits mid 50's. 

PS: All statistics are pulled completely out of my ass.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Also, I think Snowmonster has it right, we need to compartmentalize a bit if we want to provide superlatives to mountains .


"First to Open" - simple, first to open. Doesn't matter if it's 1 trail, half the mountain, or if it was crap snow or not. First lift served skiing = first to open. 

"Last to Close" - well, same thing. Last one to keep the lift running. 

"Longest season" - simple too, right? Most days open in a ski season. 

Other arguments about quality, etc. are subjective right.


----------



## Gilligan (Sep 27, 2012)

JimG. said:


> You need to lighten up...stirring the pot and trolling are two completely different things. I'm not attacking anybody or making false statements about ski areas or management. That's trolling.
> 
> All I'm doing is challenging some of the statements and assertions made here. I find some of these to be hilarious. So I'm stimulating conversation. That's called debate.
> 
> I'm guessing you don't like to be challenged so you revert to name calling. Very mature.


You not only got caught trolling, you openly confessed to it. What you are doing now is called back peddling. As others have stated, this is not the first time you have been called out for this sort of behavior. Name calling? Right, _I'm_ the one calling people names. Now that is hilarious.

It truly saddens me when I search for something in the archives here and see all the characters that used to post on this forum just one or two years ago, but have since left. Nick, you seem like a great guy, and I think your posts are very fair and honest, but it is long past time to do a little housecleaning with your moderators. They troll and they flame at will, and if anyone fights back they come out, guns blazing. It just is not fair to the rest of us.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> You not only got caught trolling, you openly confessed to it. What you are doing now is called back peddling. As others have stated, this is not the first time you have been called out for this sort of behavior. Name calling? Right, _I'm_ the one calling people names. Now that is hilarious.
> 
> It truly saddens me when I search for something in the archives here and see all the characters that used to post on this forum just one or two years ago, but have since left. Nick, you seem like a great guy, and I think your posts are very fair and honest, but it is long past time to do a little housecleaning with your moderators. They troll and they flame at will, and if anyone fights back they come out, guns blazing. It just is not fair to the rest of us.



On the flip side, internet is not serious business.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Scotty said:


> We should bet a six pack of beer for how many pages this thread gets to. I day 420 pages.



Scotty you missed the opportunity. The AZ Facebook page hit 420 likes but is up at like 425 now. 

The first thing I thought of was you hahaa


----------



## Riverskier (Sep 27, 2012)

Nick said:


> Also, I think Snowmonster has it right, we need to compartmentalize a bit if we want to provide superlatives to mountains .
> 
> 
> "First to Open" - simple, first to open. Doesn't matter if it's 1 trail, half the mountain, or if it was crap snow or not. First lift served skiing = first to open.
> ...



All technically correct, but for the sake of discussion I am going to say that "First to Open" and "Longest Season" are subject to interpretation. For example, I don't consider Mt Snow's jib park as eligible to take "First to Open" honors, though by simple definition it obviously counts. Likewise, I would argue that a mountain that was open 10/1-5/15, but operated weekends only early and late season, and was open less days than a mountain open from 11/1-4/30 daily, could claim "Longest Season". I guess it just depends on how you want to define it, and it really only matters (or should anyway) to resort marketing departments.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Of course I'm in, I made the offer.
> 
> There is life other than the internet you know.  Sheesh, you gave me what, 3 hours, and declared the silence deafening?



:lol: Get with the program


----------



## Riverskier (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> You not only got caught trolling, you openly confessed to it. What you are doing now is called back peddling. As others have stated, this is not the first time you have been called out for this sort of behavior. Name calling? Right, _I'm_ the one calling people names. Now that is hilarious.
> 
> It truly saddens me when I search for something in the archives here and see all the characters that used to post on this forum just one or two years ago, but have since left. Nick, you seem like a great guy, and I think your posts are very fair and honest, but it is long past time to do a little housecleaning with your moderators. They troll and they flame at will, and if anyone fights back they come out, guns blazing. It just is not fair to the rest of us.



Just curious, where and how was JimG trolling in this thread? All I saw was him express his opinion on the subjest like everyone else. What were the offending remarks?


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> You not only got caught trolling, you openly confessed to it. What you are doing now is called back peddling. As others have stated, this is not the first time you have been called out for this sort of behavior. Name calling? Right, _I'm_ the one calling people names. Now that is hilarious.
> 
> It truly saddens me when I search for something in the archives here and see all the characters that used to post on this forum just one or two years ago, but have since left. Nick, you seem like a great guy, and I think your posts are very fair and honest, but it is long past time to do a little housecleaning with your moderators. They troll and they flame at will, and if anyone fights back they come out, guns blazing. It just is not fair to the rest of us.



So, here's my .02 - 

I think JimG probably shouldn't have said he is intentionally stirring the pot .... because in rereading his posts here, I don't even think that is an accurate characterization of what he was doing.  I think he has his (strong) opinions on Killington, like many others do, and they cause some intense conversation. In reading this entire thread I see lots of strong minded people but I really don't see any trolling or name calling, anywhere. Please point it out to me if you do see it. This thread actually looks like a model thread compared to some of the earlier K threads. 

Can you provide me an example of this: 



> They troll and they flame at will, and if anyone fights back they come out, guns blazing.



There have been some instances where a mod has said something, but I think almost every time that has happened they have also posted a recant of it, if it truly crossed a line or a forum rule. I try to hold all of us accountable to the same standards, and if I don't then please feel free to PM me and I'd be glad to take a look at a particular case. 

Everyone will occasionally say something when things get heated, then after cooling down you revisit a statement. I don't even see that happening here. The only thing i see is JimG probably mistakenly saying that he was stirring the pot - do you really think his statement was stirring a pot? 

I do appreciate the input -lots of people are lurkers here for months, maybe even years, before they register, so I'm guessing you aren't as new as your register date says. 

Again, always willing to listen to things via PM directly if you want. Hell, I'll even give you my phone number if you want to chat or grab a beer.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> All technically correct, but for the sake of discussion I am going to say that "First to Open" and "Longest Season" are subject to interpretation. For example, I don't consider Mt Snow's jib park as eligible to take "First to Open" honors, though by simple definition it obviously counts. Likewise, I would argue that a mountain that was open 10/1-5/15, but operated weekends only early and late season, and was open less days than a mountain open from 11/1-4/30 daily, could claim "Longest Season". I guess it just depends on how you want to define it, and it really only matters (or should anyway) to resort marketing departments.



I guess theoretically you could split Longest Season into 

1- The most # of days open in a season 

or 

2 - The most # of days between first and last day

Who the hell knows. This is the problem with statistics. You can selectively choose them to come to whatever consensus you want, to make your point. 

If Resort A was open on 10/1 and closed 6/1 but only spun on the weekends, and Resort B was open on 10/15 and closed on 5/15 but was open every day, you will have both resorts claiming they were open the longest and then there will be an ensuing thread on AlpineZone where people fiercly state that Resort A really wins and others say Resort B Wins! and then someone will chime in with how AZ is going to hell in a handbasket. 

Rinse and repeat. 

:lol:


----------



## Riverskier (Sep 27, 2012)

It makes good internet though doesn't it Nick?


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

Are we combining SR and the Loaf again? Was SR open until mid May last year? 

Regardless, saying SR is open 10/1 to 5/15 consistently is laughable at best. Thats pretty much cherry picking their earliest opening possible with their latest close possible.


----------



## Gilligan (Sep 27, 2012)

Nick said:


> The only thing i see is JimG probably mistakenly saying that he was stirring the pot - do you really think his statement was stirring a pot?



Nick, your reply confirms to me how nice of a guy you must be. But...

JimG wrote: "Did I mention to you how much I enjoy stirring the pot in these threads?"

He admitted how much he enjoys stirring the pot in these types of threads. He did not say he had stirred the pot in this particular thread. He admitted to a pattern of behavior that I would call "trolling". Perhaps that word means more to some people, but to me trolling is purposely stirring the pot just for fun.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Are we combining SR and the Loaf again? Was SR open until mid May last year?
> 
> Regardless, saying SR is open 10/1 to 5/15 consistently is laughable at best. Thats pretty much cherry picking their earliest opening possible with their latest close possible.



The loaf closed 1 day after the River Last year I believe.  The heat wave was actually an inversion as well it Maine.  It just killed everyone. Props to Jay.


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## Riverskier (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Are we combining SR and the Loaf again? Was SR open until mid May last year?
> 
> Regardless, saying SR is open 10/1 to 5/15 consistently is laughable at best. Thats pretty much cherry picking their earliest opening possible with their latest close possible.



Are you talking to me? I don't believe SR has ever opened as early as 10/1 and the last time they were open until 5/15 was the early/mid 90's. I wasn't referencing any specific mountain or discussion; rather I was just pointing out that the definition of these titles can be interpreted in different ways. And for the record, based on what I think you are getting at, yes Killington has had the longest season in the East for any single mountain by most any metric for the last several years (I believe).


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

Well I think that AdironRider has a point in saying that we should consider SR and SL as one...Boyne...if we are going to do that.  I think that they clearly use that strategy.


----------



## Riverskier (Sep 27, 2012)

I agree 100%, but I though AR was criticizing the idea of combining them. Anyway, Boyne defnitely uses that strategy, and it makes sense to capitalize on each area's strengths. Most of their customers that ski in October and May have passes good at both places anyway, so it works for us.


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## AdironRider (Sep 27, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> I agree 100%, but I though AR was criticizing the idea of combining them. Anyway, Boyne defnitely uses that strategy, and it makes sense to capitalize on each area's strengths. Most of their customers that ski in October and May have passes good at both places anyway, so it works for us.



Im neither here nor there, but I think including Sugarloaf is grasping at straws of the season length argument. Their location is just to far for most to take advantage of. When looking at season passes and not respective resorts though the length is there for Boyne peeps who really get after it, and they should be commended for it.


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## JimG. (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Nick, your reply confirms to me how nice of a guy you must be. But...
> 
> JimG wrote: "Did I mention to you how much I enjoy stirring the pot in these threads?"
> 
> He admitted how much he enjoys stirring the pot in these types of threads. He did not say he had stirred the pot in this particular thread. He admitted to a pattern of behavior that I would call "trolling". Perhaps that word means more to some people, but to me trolling is purposely stirring the pot just for fun.



Yes, I openly admit again I like, no make that LOVE to stir up conversation in these types of threads. I sincerely apologize to you sir if my choice of words means I am trolling to you. I don't think many others feel that way. But since you are so clearly bothered by what I said, I will never again admit to stirring any pots.

Just to show you how sensitive people on the internet have become, when I openly admitted to stirring the pot in the past, Greg, the old owner of this site, made me an avatar which was basically my head photoshopped onto a picture of a chef stirring a big pot. I loved that avatar and displayed it proudly. And nobody had any issues with it.

You know, promoting conversation on this site is what pays the bills.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Nick, your reply confirms to me how nice of a guy you must be. But...
> 
> JimG wrote: "Did I mention to you how much I enjoy stirring the pot in these threads?"
> 
> He admitted how much he enjoys stirring the pot in these types of threads. He did not say he had stirred the pot in this particular thread. He admitted to a pattern of behavior that I would call "trolling". Perhaps that word means more to some people, but to me trolling is purposely stirring the pot just for fun.


You need to smoke some Mary Jane. 


Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2


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## JimG. (Sep 27, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Just curious, where and how was JimG trolling in this thread? All I saw was him express his opinion on the subjest like everyone else. What were the offending remarks?



I said I like stirring the pot meaning I like to stir up debate...to him that means I'm trolling.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 27, 2012)

I started this thread to stir the flames of the debate conversation pot. 

I really don't give a rats ass who opens first. But it will be Killington. I had a divine revelation two weeks ago. A flaming bush with smoke that spelled out "River will be Killed This Year". I assumed it meant that Killington would open before Sunday River. If it didn't mean that, I assume it was just incoherent gibberish.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 27, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> I started this thread to stir the flames of the debate conversation pot.
> 
> I really don't give a rats ass who opens first. But it will be Killington. I had a divine revelation two weeks ago. A flaming bush with smoke that spelled out "River will be Killed This Year". I assumed it meant that Killington would open before Sunday River. If it didn't mean that, I assume it was just incoherent gibberish.



I think you might be moderator material.


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## skiersleft (Sep 27, 2012)

JimG. said:


> I think you might be moderator material.



You hear that, Nick? I'm willing and able. My flaming bush revelations may reveal facts that are material to AZ's future.


----------



## WWF-VT (Sep 27, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Well I think that AdironRider has a point in saying that we should consider SR and SL as one...Boyne...if we are going to do that.  I think that they clearly use that strategy.



You can do that as soon as they move Sugarloaf two hours closer to Boston


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## Gilligan (Sep 27, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You've been called out for this before by the by.





JimG. said:


> A few times yes...all in Killington threads.


Just as long as we all know what is really going on here.


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## Ski the Moguls (Sep 27, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> You can do that as soon as they move Sugarloaf two hours closer to Boston


Agree. It bothers me when people think that just because you can ski both SR and SL on one pass, that you get to add them together to count season length. I like both ski areas, but they are most definitely separate ski areas.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 27, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Agree. It bothers me when people think that just because you can ski both SR and SL on one pass, that you get to add them together to count season length. I like both ski areas, but they are most definitely separate ski areas.





+1 I agree 110%


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

Scotty said:


> You need to smoke some Mary Jane.
> 
> 
> Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2




I think that we're talking about another kind of pot.  :lol:


----------



## tt431 (Sep 27, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> I started this thread to stir the flames of the debate conversation pot.
> 
> I really don't give a rats ass who opens first. But it will be Killington. I had a divine revelation two weeks ago. A flaming bush with smoke that spelled out "River will be Killed This Year". I assumed it meant that Killington would open before Sunday River. If it didn't mean that, I assume it was just incoherent gibberish.


It's all your fault.


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## Ski the Moguls (Sep 27, 2012)

Scotty said:


> +1 I agree 110%


Shouldn't that be +1.1 then? :grin:


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## Ski the Moguls (Sep 27, 2012)

tt431 said:


> It's all [skiersleft's] fault.


Seconded.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 27, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Seconded.



Can you clarify? What exactly is my fault? I cannot control divine revelation. Burning bushes appear every once in a while to people while they sleep. Can't fault me for that.


----------



## snowmonster (Sep 27, 2012)

Bob R said:


> You write like a Dean or Law college prof. We will have none of that.   Only thing I would like to add is if there is competition we all win.



Man, I miss hanging out with you, BobR. See you at Barker in a few weeks. Competition is a good thing. I can talk competition policy but that would make me look like an egghead.



thetrailboss said:


> Hey man, he is the Professor of Powder you know.  And he is bringing that Pow with him to Utah this Christmas!  :lol:



Powder to the People, man! Let's not jinx it but I am already stoked for pow pow.


----------



## Gilligan (Sep 27, 2012)

I could use some of that stuff Scotty's talking about.


----------



## witch hobble (Sep 27, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> My flaming bush revelations may reveal facts that are material to AZ's future.



I think there are topical creams for your condition, or we could refer you to an OB-GYN.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 27, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> I really respect your opinion, so I will assume that you were not able to drive home the point that you wished to drive home.


My bad if I didn't make my point clear. I was certainly not suggesting that K skiers don't care. I was merely suggesting that K skiers are not putting their money where their mouth is if it is a factor when it comes to buying a season pass. I was suggesting there has to be a lot more factors than that and that K is attracting season pass holders for reasons other than just first to open last to close and length of season since they have slipped so far from their past (though they seem to be trying to get on a better path than recent past). They still have a long season... but they are at beast right on par with many other resorts for opening, closing, and the number of days between those bookends.


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## riverc0il (Sep 27, 2012)

Nick said:


> "Longest season" - simple too, right? Most days open in a ski season.


Actually, not so simple. K apologists  are suggesting that, yes, most days open in a ski season is "longest". And that might be appropriate for skiers and riders that don't work mid-week. But for most of us that aren't willing to blow a vacation day for a WROD, counting the number of days between the first day of operations and last day of operations is sufficient. To clarify, perhaps "most days open" should mean the former and "longest season" should mean the latter.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> I could use some of that stuff Scotty's talking about.



Christ I haven't done it in 10 years and I could use some of that stuff after this thread hahaha


----------



## witch hobble (Sep 27, 2012)

Shit is gonna start getting pretty weird around here if everybody starts getting into whatever Scotty is on.


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh


My


God.


----------



## Nick (Sep 27, 2012)

I was obviously joking but yeah imagine the Scotty Mega Forum.  :lol: 

<cue twilight zone music >


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 27, 2012)

Nick said:


> I was obviously joking but yeah imagine the Scotty Mega Forum.  :lol:
> 
> <cue twilight zone music >





 Classic, lol


----------



## AndyEich (Sep 27, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> ...yes Killington has had the longest season in the East for any single mountain by most any metric for the last several years (I believe).



Ok, just checked this using the opening-date-to-closing-date, which doesn't penalize SR for it's tendency to only open on weekends at first.
For 11/12, Killington was open 7 days longer, K from 10/29 to 4/22, SR from 10/29 to 4/15.
For 10/11, Sunday River was open 4 days longer, K from 11/2 to 5/1, SR from 10/22 to 4/24.
For 09/10, Sunday River was open 18 days longer, K from 11/7 to 4/25, SR form 10/14 to 4/19.
For 08/09, Killington was open 4 days longer, K from 11/2 to 5/2, SR from 10/31 to 4/26.
For 07/08, Sunday River was open 23 days longer, K from 11/16 to 4/20, SR from 10/31 to 4/27.
For 06/07, Sunday river was open 6 days longer, K from 11/23 to 5/6, SR from 11/10 to 4/29.

Unless I got some dates wrong (you can only trust the interweb so much...), I think this shows pretty conclusively that SR wins on this version of the season length metric.

The other factor being left out is how much terrain is open.  My gut feel is that Killington usually has more terrain open than SR when temps stay low (and when there is natural snow, the difference is often dramatic--Sugarbush, Stowe, etc also beat SR), but that when temps are marginal or after thaw/freeze events, SR seems to stay ahead of Killington.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 27, 2012)

AndyEich said:


> Ok, just checked this using the opening-date-to-closing-date, which doesn't penalize SR for it's tendency to only open on weekends at first.
> For 11/12, Killington was open 7 days longer, K from 10/29 to 4/22, SR from 10/29 to 4/15.
> For 10/11, Sunday River was open 4 days longer, K from 11/2 to 5/1, SR from 10/22 to 4/24.
> For 09/10, Sunday River was open 18 days longer, K from 11/7 to 4/25, SR form 10/14 to 4/19.
> ...



You're missing something. And it's obvious. Hopefully you will figure it out soon.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2012)

AndyEich said:


> Ok, just checked this using the opening-date-to-closing-date, which doesn't penalize SR for it's tendency to only open on weekends at first.
> For 11/12, Killington was open 7 days longer, K from 10/29 to 4/22, SR from 10/29 to 4/15.
> For 10/11, Sunday River was open 4 days longer, K from 11/2 to 5/1, SR from 10/22 to 4/24.
> For 09/10, Sunday River was open 18 days longer, K from 11/7 to 4/25, SR form 10/14 to 4/19.
> ...



Wow.  Thanks for finding that.  Interesting.  Guess that things have been like that for a while....


----------



## AndyEich (Sep 27, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> You're missing something. And it's obvious. Hopefully you will figure it out soon.



Killington has better terrain?   Other than that, I don't know--please enlighten me.


----------



## skiersleft (Sep 28, 2012)

AndyEich said:


> Killington has better terrain?   Other than that, I don't know--please enlighten me.



Let me do so. First, your whole premise is bogus. Length of season is about days open, not about opening day and closing day. Let me give you an obvious example. Ski area X decides to open only on Saturday. Why? Because they can and because it makes business sense. They open on Saturday, October 27 and close on Saturday, May 5. They are closed every day of the week except Saturday. A lot of AZers are super happy because they usually ski on Saturday. 

Does ski area X have the longest season compared to the usual players? Yes. But only if you don't take the question seriously. A lot of people want to ski on days other than Saturday. So, it's ridiculous to think that they really have the longest season. After all, they were open 24 days. Other ski areas were open for more than 150 days. 

People here claim that who cares that SR only opens during weekends early season? No one they say. After all, we all work. And if we all work we won't ski midweek. And even if we would take days off, we would do so mid season, not in October to ski a WROD. That's BS. You know why? Here's where I enlighten you. Many people in this country, world and universe ski midweek. And they like to ski midweek. Why? Because they are retired. Because they are college students. Because they are more successful than you - and me - and run their own business and take time off whenever they want. Because it's emptier. Because the best skiing anywhere is midweek. Because it's less crowded. Because it's cheaper. Do I need to give more reasons? 

How many ski areas sell weekend only passes? Not many. How many sell midweek only passes? Most. Why? BECAUSE A LOT OF FREAKING PEOPLE SKI MIDWEEK. AND BECAUSE A LOT OF FREAKING PEOPLE VALUE SKIING MIDWEEK. So everyone stop with this BS about people wanting to ski weekends and not caring about skiing midweek early season because of X or Y. It might apply to you. It might apply to most people. It might apply to 70% of skiers. But you know what? The 20 or 30% who buy midweek passes, or who are retired, or who attend college, or who have unorthodox jobs beg to differ. And they do care about skiing midweek. Even in October or November. And SR "longest season" stat is a cheater stat. And everyone knows that. Do they often open first? Yup. Do they deserve props for that? Yup. Do they have a longer season than K? NO. Unless you are so shortsighted not to take into account that many people do value skiing midweek. Even in October. Even in November. 

Finally - and perhaps more importantly - do you know why SR closes midweek in October/early November? It's not because of the business side if things. That's BS. They often open when many people think it makes no business sense. They close because they open with thin cover - much less than Kton - and they cannot sustain skier traffic during the course of a week before the cover melts to nothing. And you know what? That's OK. They're not Kton. They don't have the elevation advantage. They don't have the temps. They don't have the setup. So they do great with what they have. Kudos. Props. Fantastic. 

But they suck when they close midweek because they paint their trails thin. Because people do want to ski midweek. And that's OK. But don't claim to have the longest season when you open a few days during October and early/mid November and close the rest of the time. It's laughable and pathetic. Kton used to have the earliest opening, the latest closing and the longest season. Now they are no longer clearly first. No longer clearly last to close. But evidently they still have the longest season. And anyone who says otherwise is having too much of whatever Scotty's having.

Oh....and second, yes, Kton does have better terrain than SR. But that goes without saying. Also better vertical, nightlife, close to civilization, more natural snowfall, better tree skiing, bump skiing, and I won't go on because it's humiliating.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Let me do so. First, your whole premise is bogus. Length of season is about days open, not about opening day and closing day. Let me give you an obvious example.



I got this far, saw the wall of text and said no thanks.  Not everyone agrees with you on your definition of longest season in the east skiersleft.  Writing the skiing message board version of War and Peace isn't exactly a means to sway opinions.  

Can we get an outline or at least some cliff notes regarding your winning opinion?


----------



## Ski the Moguls (Sep 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I got this far, saw the wall of text and said no thanks.  Not everyone agrees with you on your definition of longest season in the east skiersleft.  Writing the skiing message board version of War and Peace isn't exactly a means to sway opinions.
> 
> Can we get an outline or at least some cliff notes regarding your winning opinion?


Read the whole thing. It is outstanding.


----------



## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I got this far, saw the wall of text and said no thanks.  Not everyone agrees with you on your definition of longest season in the east skiersleft.  Writing the skiing message board version of War and Peace isn't exactly a means to sway opinions.
> 
> Can we get an outline or at least some cliff notes regarding your winning opinion?



It was actually a decent post but a TL;DR would be useful form the shorter attention span users :lol:

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## tt431 (Sep 28, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Read the whole thing. [Skiersleft's post] is outstanding.


Seconded.


----------



## andyzee (Sep 28, 2012)

In the end, it's all good. Two good areas that provide more ski days than most, honorable mention to Jay Peak.


Cliff Notes aka Words of Wisdom:


skiersleft said:


> They're not Kton.
> 
> Kton does have better terrain than SR. But that goes without saying. Also better vertical, nightlife, close to civilization, more natural snowfall, better tree skiing, bump skiing, and I won't go on because it's humiliating.
> 
> And anyone who says otherwise is having too much of whatever Scotty's having. I'll have some of that please.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 28, 2012)

Sr River closes mid week early season for Smart dollar reasons ,not because its a WROD.. No its not mid winter perfect, but every race team in the east has been there early season the last few years.  They took advanctage of the early opening.  Sr made money.   

  A couple of years ago they closed on a weekend due to it being thin. K had not opened yet period. 
 If there is no snow they will close up.  IF there is no business they don't open.  

Kind of like evey other business.  Marketing only goes so far. 

 If SR the plan did not work they would change it, well that is my guess.  5 years ago when Sunday River Started to push the envelope we got early skiing back.  K had to react.  Does anyone really believe K would have done the changess unless Sunday River pushed the Envelope.

Andy Zee is right.K and Sunday River give the customers more days than most other areas. 


Careful.

 Andy Eich is those people you say who have control of thier time and are successful.  I think He speaks for himself quite well.


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## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

What are we even arguing about again ? 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Vortex (Sep 28, 2012)

SkiersLeft.  I like your passion and your Love for K. Great Terrrain, some really good people.  IF the bet ends us being lost, plesae look us up sat Sunday River.  We do out own version of a b1 BBQ, or I will host the berveage sampling at my place.  Open inviatation with a place to stay.


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## tt431 (Sep 28, 2012)

Nick said:


> What are we even arguing about again ?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


To summarize:  
Original thread was about who opens first.  Now the thread has developed into who's got the longest season.
SR opens from 10/14 to 4/19 while K opens from 11/7 to 4/25 = SR 18 days more.
For the season SR opens 165 days while K was opens 168.= K 3 days more.
Who has the longest season?  You decide.
Someone else mentioned, competition is good for us,  I agree.

PS: All statistics are pulled completely out of my ass. (learned that from you hahaha)


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2012)

Bob R said:


> Great Terrrain, some really good people.



 I am not saying SR is better just that I would disagree with this statement.


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## Vortex (Sep 28, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> I am not saying SR is better just that I would disagree with this statement.



Lost me, I think K has very good terrrian. Good and bad people everywhere.  Pretty nice bunch at the BBQ events they have.


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## mister moose (Sep 28, 2012)

Longest season is longest season.  Not the longest uninterupted season, or the longest including midweek season, or the longest top to bottom season (which Killington also used to whine about), or the longest season with all lifts running.  If you want to brag about most number days open, then please call it what it is.

Killington also boasts most vertical, which it technically deserves.  However, if you call the metric most vertical lapable off one lift, or most vertical that has no green trails, killington falls from first place.

If Killington is going to take the technical mantle of largest vertical, it also loses the technical mantle of longest season to Sunday River more often than not lately.

That doesn't take away from anyone's enthusiasm for Killington, including skiersleft.  It does take away from the credibility of his lengthy argument, no matter how long it is.  For according to him, areas like Magic and Pico have no season at all, as they aren't open continuously.


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## tt431 (Sep 28, 2012)

Oh, if we talked about terrain, a better competitor for SR would be Okemo not K.


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## JimG. (Sep 28, 2012)

The thread that just keeps on giving.

AZ posters are the best!


----------



## SIKSKIER (Sep 28, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Oh....and second, yes, Kton does have better terrain than SR. But that goes without saying. Also better vertical, nightlife, close to civilization, more natural snowfall, better tree skiing, bump skiing, and I won't go on because it's humiliating.



It is humiliating.You humiliate yourself.If nightlife is one of your checkmarks for skiing then....wow...you must be killing it out there.Close to civilization?I want exactly the opposite and stay the hell away from resorts like Killigton for just that reason.You left out one thing K has in spades over SR...a-holes.


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2012)

SIKSKIER said:


> It is humiliating.You humiliate yourself.If nightlife is one of your checkmarks for skiing then....wow...you must be killing it out there.Close to civilization?I want exactly the opposite and stay the hell away from resorts like Killigton for just that reason.You left out one thing K has in spades over SR...a-holes.


HAHAHA - It has to do with where they draw their crowd from.


----------



## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

I don't think it's a checkmark for good skiing but when you go for a weekend nightlife is a nice thing to have. 

I skied in Italy on the Sellaronda in the early 2000's - skiing was amazing - but there was literally nothing to do at night in the town we were in. No internet, no TV, a single bar that had like four people in it. Blah. 

I think in that case it was our specific location but I have always had a good time hanging out in the Killington area.


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## skiersleft (Sep 28, 2012)

mister moose said:


> It does take away from the credibility of his lengthy argument, no matter how long it is.  For according to him, areas like Magic and Pico have no season at all, as they aren't open continuously.



Please read my post again if you have the time (It's pretty long, so you may not have the time). I never say that if you close you "have no season at all". I just said that days that you are closed should not count towards your season length (for what I take are obvious reasons...this is only controversial because it's about SR). 

The funny thing is that instead of rebutting my argument, your Pico example actually proves that my argument is correct. People were pissed when K decided to close Pico two days of the week. Can you imagine management replying like this: "You are irrational people...why are you pissed when Pico is opening as early as it always has and closing as late as they always have...ergo, my irrational people, season length at Pico hasn't changed at all". 

This argument doesn't pass the laugh test, obviously. People at Pico are pissed because closing two days of the week reduces the season length at Pico. Why? Because season length is measured by number of days that you are open for skiing. If K management makes the decision to close Pico Tuesday and Wednesday, they effectively shortened the Pico season. 

It's so easy to see with Pico...it should also be with Killington. Let me give you one more example. IN 2005-2006, Killington opened October 29-30 and then closed until November 19. It would be incorrect to claim that the days between October 30 and Novemebr 19 counted towards their season length. Being closed those 20 days shortened their season. There's no other way of looking at it. And SR being closed midweek shortens their season. Period.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2012)

One thing I've found to be true about this annual discussion is how much more K skiers care about it than Sunday River skiers.  There is no set of the eastern skiing population like (many not all) Killington skiers who are so hell bent on screaming from the mountain tops about how their season lasts the longest and if that's not enough they have to push their chests out and remind everyone how much bigger and badder the ski area is than everywhere else.   K skiers are truly the alpha males of the east.  See a lot of giant trucks and SUVs in the parking lot there too.


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## skiersleft (Sep 28, 2012)

周日河吸


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Longest season is longest season.  Not the longest uninterupted season, or the longest including midweek season, or the longest top to bottom season (which Killington also used to whine about), or the longest season with all lifts running.  If you want to brag about most number days open, then please call it what it is.
> 
> Killington also boasts most vertical, which it technically deserves.  However, if you call the metric most vertical lapable off one lift, or most vertical that has no green trails, killington falls from first place.
> 
> ...



This post is the epitomy of stacking the deck.


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## AdironRider (Sep 28, 2012)

SIKSKIER said:


> It is humiliating.You humiliate yourself.If nightlife is one of your checkmarks for skiing then....wow...you must be killing it out there.Close to civilization?I want exactly the opposite and stay the hell away from resorts like Killigton for just that reason.You left out one thing K has in spades over SR...a-holes.



Say the guy who skis at a place on a major East Coast highway and is 15 minutes from Loon and all the condo, nightlife, etc that comes with the place.


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## witch hobble (Sep 28, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> HAHAHA - It has to do with where they draw their crowd from.



I will go on record here:  Greater Boston has an equal # of a-holes per capita as NY "Tri-state area".


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## Gilligan (Sep 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> One thing I've found to be true about this annual discussion is how much more K skiers care about it than Sunday River skiers.  There is no set of the eastern skiing population like (many not all) Killington skiers who are so hell bent on screaming from the mountain tops about how their season lasts the longest and if that's not enough they have to push their chests out and remind everyone how much bigger and badder the ski area is than everywhere else.   K skiers are truly the alpha males of the east.  See a lot of giant trucks and SUVs in the parking lot there too.


That is an interesting point. Over the years I have also noticed a bit of a rivalry between Sugarloaf and Sunday River. In this rivalry, it always seemed like the Loaf skiers cared more about it than the River skiers. There must be something about Sunday River that annoys the other hills.


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2012)

witch hobble said:


> I will go on record here:  Greater Boston has an equal # of a-holes per capita as NY "Tri-state area".



True but Killington pulls from both where SR really doesn't pull from the Tristate area as much


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## snowmonster (Sep 28, 2012)

Bob R said:


> Careful.
> 
> Andy Eich is those people you say who have control of thier time and are successful.  I think He speaks for himself quite well.



Whereas other people have to drive, I think AndyEich is one of those rare people who has the option to fly to SR or SL.



deadheadskier said:


> K skiers are truly the alpha males of the east.  See a lot of giant trucks and SUVs in the parking lot there too.



I read a study recently that alpha males are actually quieter and less showy when in the pack. It stems from the fact that they are more secure in their position among the other animals in the pack and do not feel the need to assert their dominance.



Gilligan said:


> That is an interesting point. Over the years I have also noticed a bit of a rivalry between Sugarloaf and Sunday River. In this rivalry, it always seemed like the Loaf skiers cared more about it than the River skiers. There must be something about Sunday River that annoys the other hills.



The SR-SL has been going on for years. It used to be worse when they were under separate ownership. The SL knock against SR has always been about the lack of height (Someday Bigger, "If you were at Sunday River, you'd be at the summit" sign) and the presence of more Bostonians and average skiers. SL is bigger, steeper, brawnier and for true Mainers and SR is supposed to be inferior. The most egregious manifestation of this "hate" is that someone stuck an SR sticker in a urinal at Bullwinkles so patrons had to pee on it. Someone told me that the recent hate-wave had something to do with SL regulars' resentment that SR was getting all the Boyne attention (Chondola) while SL facilities were neglected. Hopefully, with the opening of more terrain at SL and more improvements, that resentment has been mitigated.

As for SR regulars, I have yet to hear anyone at SR spew SL hate. The only knock SR skiers have against SL is the windholds. Other than that, I think it's all good. Is it a rivalry if only one side cares about it? Reminds me of the line in Casablanca:

Ugarte: You despise me, don't you?
Rick: If I gave you any thought, I probably would.


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## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

First world problems in this thread here. Just sayin'


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## Vortex (Sep 28, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> That is an interesting point. Over the years I have also noticed a bit of a rivalry between Sugarloaf and Sunday River. In this rivalry, it always seemed like the Loaf skiers cared more about it than the River skiers. There must be something about Sunday River that annoys the other hills.



Pretty interesting, and I think accurate post mostly in relation to K and the Loaf.   Sr has alway been about Snow making and Grooming since the Less era.     Some resentment there. Not really much sent  back.  Kind of laid back at the River. 

If Sr did not push with early openings and make so much snow,  I don't think this would come up.


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## JimG. (Sep 28, 2012)

Season length has not been shortened exclusively at Killington you know...I'm a Hunter regular and in the 90's was quite used to early (November 10 or earlier) openings and later (3rd weekend of April or later) closings. Granted, that is still short compared to K of the 90's, but it would be comparable to modern day seasons at K.

Not the case anymore...lucky to open by Thanksgiving now and if we make it to the 2nd weekend of April it's a miracle. And alot of times the last weekend is Saturday only now which I really think is dumb.

The only point I'm trying to make is that season length has suffered due to the modern day finances of running a ski hill and less because of managers sitting in a back room plotting how to get another dollar of profit by closing a day earlier. I would venture a guess that most ski areas have shorter seasons nowadays compared to the past.


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## jerryg (Sep 28, 2012)

Well put Mr. Monster. I grew up skiing at SL, but migrated to SR cause that's where my wife's family skis. I still ski SL as much as I can and love it, but I'm a SR skier now. That being said, I have to chime in and say that I think it's hilarious that people from SL or Kton have so much "passion" towards SR. Why do they care what SR does? Snowmonster was right on the money... the people I ski with at SR love to ski and it doesn't matter where. None of them ever waste time talking about how SR is great and better than mountain x, y, or even the mighty z. It's those mountains' skiers and riders with the the apparent small d**k complex, which somehow gets them all bent. 


The bottom line is that this argument over which mountain is bigger, better, smaller, longer, deeper, faster, you effin' name it, is not going to end. Skisleft is like 18 years late to the party on this argument. And I'm being serious - Les put in the midstation on the Locke triple about 18 years ago, for this very reason. Clearly it worked 'cause judging by your posts, not only does Kton make resorts like Whistler look tiny, but their epicness has Squaw Valley and Jackson Hole hiding behind granite bluffs.


Get over it!   



snowmonster said:


> Whereas other people have to drive, I think AndyEich is one of those rare people who has the option to fly to SR or SL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2012)

Sugarbush back in the 1990's used to open early as well at Mount Ellen.  ASC stopped that when they reconfigured Mount Ellen.  But Win and Company did have a run at opening relatively early and staying open relatively late, until recently.  They do try to go one week before Thanksgiving through the first weekend of May.  Yes, their season is shorter now.


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## 2knees (Sep 28, 2012)

just like old times!

picked the right day to check in.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 28, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Season length has not been shortened exclusively at Killington you know...I'm a Hunter regular and in the 90's was quite used to early (November 10 or earlier) openings and later (3rd weekend of April or later) closings. Granted, that is still short compared to K of the 90's, but it would be comparable to modern day seasons at K.
> 
> Not the case anymore...lucky to open by Thanksgiving now and if we make it to the 2nd weekend of April it's a miracle. And alot of times the last weekend is Saturday only now which I really think is dumb.
> 
> The only point I'm trying to make is that season length has suffered due to the modern day finances of running a ski hill and less because of managers sitting in a back room plotting how to get another dollar of profit by closing a day earlier. I would venture a guess that most ski areas have shorter seasons nowadays compared to the past.





I remember in the. 90s Hunter making Belt and other trails with like 10 foot base and still be blowing in March, and they always made a great light powder snow.


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## Nick (Sep 28, 2012)

2knees said:


> just like old times!
> 
> picked the right day to check in.



Jawohl!


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## riverc0il (Sep 28, 2012)

For those not willing to read that post, let me sum it up for you:


skiersleft said:


> Blah blah blah.


skiersleft is representing the 1%... The 1% that skis mid-week. And ware the resort that doesn't open mid-week during the last week of October but considers itself first to open for the season!


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## JimG. (Sep 28, 2012)

2knees said:


> just like old times!
> 
> picked the right day to check in.



LOL, just spilled wine on the keyboard. 

Did you google Killington?


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## skiersleft (Sep 28, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> For those not willing to read that post, let me sum it up for you:
> 
> skiersleft is representing the 1%... The 1% that skis mid-week. And ware the resort that doesn't open mid-week during the last week of October but considers itself first to open for the season!



That wasn't nice, my friend. You're just jealous that I ski midweek and you usually can't. Cest la vie, mon ami. Also, the 1% is more powerful than you think. Actually, more like 47%.


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## bigbog (Sep 28, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> The winter prior to the Stairway being installed at K?  IIRC the Stairway was put in because Killington wasn't able to open until after Thanksgiving weekend the prior year.  I think Sunday River was the only place in the east that had November skiing that season.



Thanksgiving weekend has always been the Demo Days at SR...a week before Sugarloaf's....so there's always the potential for good $$$ to be made from SouthRidge's skishop on down to the end of the access road...in equipment and clothing, along with the kids back from college.  It's a pretty big weekend for skiing.....


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## steamboat1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Killington was closed Friday Jan. 27 2012.

Pretty sure every other ski area in the north east that was scheduled to be open that day was open.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> That wasn't nice, my friend. You're just jealous that I ski midweek and you usually can't. Cest la vie, mon ami. Also, the 1% is more powerful than you think. Actually, more like 47%.



you obviously don't know rivercoil very well.  While he doesn't ski primarily during the midweek, he certainly does ski midweek pretty much whenever a storm hits.  For a working stiff not living at the base of a mountain, he grabs more powder days than most.  I doubt he's jealous of you skiing WROD midweek at Killington in November when Sunday River is closed.......


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## mister moose (Sep 28, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Killington was closed Friday Jan. 27 2012.
> 
> Pretty sure every other ski area in the north east that was scheduled to be open that day was open.



Gasp. Forgot about that.

 So much for that "longest (continuous) season" claim there, skiersleft.  Might have to split it in half.  And don't try to argue a day vs 2, or 3, or 10.  Discontinuous is discontinuous.


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## JimG. (Sep 29, 2012)

Scotty said:


> I remember in the. 90s Hunter making Belt and other trails with like 10 foot base and still be blowing in March, and they always made a great light powder snow.



They still make great snow, but less of it for sure.


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## skiersleft (Sep 29, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Gasp. Forgot about that.
> 
> So much for that "longest (continuous) season" claim there, skiersleft.  Might have to split it in half.  And don't try to argue a day vs 2, or 3, or 10.  Discontinuous is discontinuous.



Again changing my claim. Adironrider is right. You really do stack the deck. I know you are smart, so you're clearly just messing around, but I'll bite. My argument was never "continuous season". It's always been most days open during a season. I thought you had a chest full of bogus stats. I was wrong. You have a shed full of straw men. Good for you!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> You have a shed full of straw men. Good for you!



I'm sure that you were waiting all summer long to use that line....


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## tt431 (Sep 29, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Again changing my claim. Adironrider is right. You really do stack the deck. I know you are smart, so you're clearly just messing around, but I'll bite. My argument was never "continuous season". It's always been most days open during a season. I thought you had a chest full of bogus stats. I was wrong. You have a shed full of straw men. Good for you!


I like MM's definition better, this way I can say I skied from October 29th to mid May.  How many days is that, 190?  My personal season is longer than SR's. :flame:


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## skiadikt (Sep 29, 2012)

reason k has to open full time is because their payroll system isn't sophisticated enough to deal with part time employees ...

haven't really kept up on this thread so i'm not sure i'm on "topic", but this open continuously thing is a bunch of crap at k. here you have a business that's squeezing every drop they can out of the grape (delayed opening times, cutback on lifts, snowmaking etc) but they insist on being open full time early season. unless on those tues-thurs they're making buckets of money by being open, seems like sunday river is doing the right thing.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 29, 2012)

skiadikt said:


> reason k has to open full time is because their payroll system isn't sophisticated enough to deal with part time employees ...
> 
> haven't really kept up on this thread so i'm not sure i'm on "topic", but this open continuously thing is a bunch of crap at k. here you have a business that's squeezing every drop they can out of the grape (delayed opening times, cutback on lifts, snowmaking etc) but they insist on being open full time early season. unless on those tues-thurs they're making buckets of money by being open, seems like sunday river is doing the right thing.


Who would you rather be employed by?


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## JimG. (Sep 29, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sure that you were waiting all summer long to use that line....



Worth the wait...well placed.


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## JimG. (Sep 29, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> you obviously don't know rivercoil very well.  While he doesn't ski primarily during the midweek, he certainly does ski midweek pretty much whenever a storm hits.  For a working stiff not living at the base of a mountain, he grabs more powder days than most.  I doubt he's jealous of you skiing WROD midweek at Killington in November when Sunday River is closed.......



Somehow this kind of sums it up so far.


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## riverc0il (Sep 29, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> you obviously don't know rivercoil very well.  While he doesn't ski primarily during the midweek, he certainly does ski midweek pretty much whenever a storm hits.  For a working stiff not living at the base of a mountain, he grabs more powder days than most.  I doubt he's jealous of you skiing WROD midweek at Killington in November when Sunday River is closed.......


One better... I might sneak out of work early to go earn a run at Sunday River mid-week which is sometimes more rewarding than the weekend skiing. Nice that they only operate on the weekend for us guys that can ski mid-week after a short work day.


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## Gilligan (Sep 29, 2012)

Uh oh, skiersleft. They were fine with you "promoting conversation", driving up page counts and helping pay the bills. Until you accidentally insulted one of the favored members. Now the wagons are circled, big guns blazing. This is what keeps me from posting very often here.


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## Nick (Sep 29, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Uh oh, skiersleft. They were fine with you "promoting conversation", driving up page counts and helping pay the bills. Until you accidentally insulted one of the favored members. Now the wagons are circled, big guns blazing. This is what keeps me from posting very often here.



..... really?

PS saying that as a big skiersleft fan 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Gilligan (Sep 29, 2012)

Nick said:


> ..... really?



Yes. He has a back and forth with Rivercoil and the next thing you know 2 mods are joining in. What, a guy with 12k posts can't defend himself? Where are the 2 mods helping skiersleft?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 30, 2012)

It's a conspiracy!!!!!


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## Terry (Sep 30, 2012)

I really could care less who opens first, has the longest season, most days open, most terrain and the most vertical. I ski Sunday River so what I care about is that they open as early as they can and stay open as late into the season as they can. And that Barker Seve has plenty of thumper on hand. Why do we have to argue this every year?:beer: Cheers! I will see you guys on the slopes.


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## riverc0il (Sep 30, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Uh oh, skiersleft. They were fine with you "promoting conversation", driving up page counts and helping pay the bills. Until you accidentally insulted one of the favored members. Now the wagons are circled, big guns blazing. This is what keeps me from posting very often here.


Says the guy posting frequently in this thread. :lol:

Hey, Nick... can I have the five peaks under my handle be replaced with "Favored Member"? 

I've antagonized enough people here not to be that much of a favored member.

skiersleft brought it upon himself in this thread. But posting a thread about Killington and trying to defend the place from numerous angles is bound to tie you up in some back and forth. Its September in a thread about Killington, what are you expecting? 

For what it is worth, I think skiersleft is one of the most consistently interesting posters at AZ. I just strongly disagree on his position of what defines "longest season". My position is what skiersleft calls "longest season" is really "most days in a season" though I think even skiersleft eventually changed his wording in the thread to most days.


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## Nick (Sep 30, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Uh oh, skiersleft. They were fine with you "promoting conversation", driving up page counts and helping pay the bills. Until you accidentally insulted one of the favored members. Now the wagons are circled, big guns blazing. This is what keeps me from posting very often here.



Guns blazing!!

:uzi: :uzi:


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2012)

It is all semantics and to be honest I have sold my soul before and skied both early season and both late season. The more choices the better. I am not a big fan of either anymore. I used to ski SR 15 times a year and I have spent many a weekend staying at friends' homes at Killington. I have moved on to liking different kinds of mountains but still ski at these on occasion when they offer the best option for the day. Variety my friends is the spice of life.


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## Rogman (Sep 30, 2012)

So many metrics, so little time... 

If you are going to define longest as "days in a season", well then you might as well go to hours in a season. Since Killington is now opening a half hour later weekends and holidays, their season just became shorter still. Meanwhile, Sunday River offers weekend and holiday night skiing. Doesn't really matter, I expect POWDR to dump their Killington investment within the next two years.


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## Gilligan (Sep 30, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Says the guy posting frequently in this thread.


It looks like you average about 1,000 posts a year and, at this rate, I am at about 100 per year. So yeah, I do not post here often.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 30, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> It looks like you average about 1,000 posts a year and, at this rate, I am at about 100 per year. So yeah, I do not post here often.



your choice

Some people like the discussions here more than others.


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## skiersleft (Oct 1, 2012)

Okay, my views have evolved somewhat after reading all the replies to this thread. Here's what I think now, for what it's worth:

(1) Sunday River has the will and the setup to open in October and they have earned the right to brag about consistently being the first to open in the East. They have done so by beating Killington the last several years (it was a tie last year). 

(2) Killington used to have the will to open first, although their setup was not as conducive for doing so as Sunday River. Lack of will combined with a less than optimal setup equated falling behind Sunday River in the open first department. 

(3) The K Peak stairway changed the equation. While SR still wants more than K the title of first to open, the setup at Killington with the stairway is now close to optimal for opening early. It's better than SR's setup all things being considered. Significant elevation advantage can now be exploited. So, I'm assuming that K will give SR a run for their money again this year and the years to come. Before the peak stairway it was almost assured that with the lack of will to open first and the suboptimal setup, SR would open first. Now it's a closer call. 

(4) K's early opening the last couple of years with the peak stairway seems to have demonstrated to management that October/early November skiing can be profitable and is a good marketing tool. So, their will to open earlier I think is now more than before. Still not on par with SR's commitment to opening first, but K now has more incentives to open as early as possible. 

(5) Although I appreciate arguments to the contrary and believe they are reasonable, I still think that the most obvious way of understanding longest season is by number of days open. By that metric, K has the longest season in the East. 

(6) Even if we take longest season in the East to mean day hill opened and day hill closed, Killington still can claim that. The competition would once again be SR. Measured this way, a case can be made in favor of SR, although it depends on how far back you look. In general, though, I think we can all agree that while SR clearly wrestled away the earliest to open title in the East, it still hasn't clearly wrestled away the longest season in the East title. Both hills can make cogent arguments about the latter, whereas K cannot (right now) claim that they consistently open first. 

(7) All that being said, Kton will open before SR this season. I had another divine revelation episode last night. The original revelation was confirmed. 

(8 ) I respect Riverc0il's opinion very much, FWIW. I read his blog with great interest. But I disagree with his current decision to go the 1 Ski Quiver route. I very much preferred his large quiver approach to skiing.  

(9) Thanks for reading, I know this was another long post.


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## Highway Star (Oct 1, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Okay, my views have evolved somewhat after reading all the replies to this thread. Here's what I think now, for what it's worth:
> 
> (1) Sunday River has the will and the setup to open in October and they have earned the right to brag about consistently being the first to open in the East. They have done so by beating Killington the last several years (it was a tie last year).
> 
> ...



Cool story bro.


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## riverc0il (Oct 1, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> (8 ) I respect Riverc0il's opinion very much, FWIW. I read his blog with great interest. But I disagree with his current decision to go the 1 Ski Quiver route. I very much preferred his large quiver approach to skiing.


Thanks for reading but this is way off topic! :lol:

My decision to consolidate is not made without experience indicating it is a solid option. 19 days out of 20 last season, I reached for my fat skis. My new sticks work very well on the groomers and I just am not using the race sticks because if it is groomers only, I just don't go skiing. I think I'll prefer my current decision, you can stick to my old quiver if you want.


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## skiersleft (Oct 1, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Thanks for reading but this is way off topic! :lol:
> 
> My decision to consolidate is not made without experience indicating it is a solid option. 19 days out of 20 last season, I reached for my fat skis. My new sticks work very well on the groomers and I just am not using the race sticks because if it is groomers only, I just don't go skiing. I think I'll prefer my current decision, you can stick to my old quiver if you want.



Since I would ski grass if I could, I go out even when it's just bulletproof ice out there. When you head out even when it's only groomers and ice, you have more fun with a skinny ski. Kudos to you, however, for getting to pick and choose your days like that! That's what living in NH does for you! Still, you have to admit your quiver was pretty cool. That sole ski now will be lonely on cold winter nights.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Cool story bro.



you're just jealous skiersleft started this annual thread this season instead of you.  :lol:


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 2, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a conspiracy!!!!!



What's a good Killington thread without a conspiracy.


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## WWF-VT (Oct 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Thanks for reading but this is way off topic! :lol:
> 
> My decision to consolidate is not made without experience indicating it is a solid option. 19 days out of 20 last season, I reached for my fat skis. My new sticks work very well on the groomers and I just am not using the race sticks *because if it is groomers only, I just don't go skiing.* I think I'll prefer my current decision, you can stick to my old quiver if you want.



Does that mean you're skipping the early season WROD at Killington or Sunday River?


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## riverc0il (Oct 2, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Does that mean you're skipping the early season WROD at Killington or Sunday River?


No. Desperation gets me to the hill until the natural snow trails and trees are ready to go. But usually only for a few runs.


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## snowmonster (Oct 2, 2012)

See you at the Rivah, riv!


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## skiersleft (Oct 2, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> No. Desperation gets me to the hill until the natural snow trails and trees are ready to go. But usually only for a few runs.



You will miss your Six Stars when you ski early season. Why not a quiver of two? Your new do it all ski and the six star for icy groomer days. It's just much more fun to ski a ski like the six stars in those conditions. No? 

By the way, snowmonster....I'll see Riv at Kton. Because K will open first, remember? It's a divine revelation thing.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 2, 2012)

Will their be any porn shooting at either mountain once there open lol?


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## snowmonster (Oct 2, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> By the way, snowmonster....I'll see Riv at Kton. Because K will open first, remember? It's a divine revelation thing.


Ah, the burning bush. Yes, I remember now. But, Nostradamus said that SR would open first this year and will close the following Monday. 

Kind of an inside joke actually. I only see riv on the first day (usually SR) and the last day of the season (Tux).


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## snowmonster (Oct 2, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Will their be any porn shooting at either mountain once there open lol?



Yes. Bring your electric guitar. 

"Hello. Good to see you. I see that you've brought a friend with you."


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## SkiFanE (Oct 2, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> You will miss your Six Stars when you ski early season. Why not a quiver of two? Your new do it all ski and the six star for icy groomer days. It's just much more fun to ski a ski like the six stars in those conditions. No?
> 
> By the way, snowmonster....I'll see Riv at Kton. Because K will open first, remember? It's a divine revelation thing.



Just to be ornery with you, I'm with rivercoil on icy groomers. If that's it, I go home. I call it body preservation. I've dodged ski injury for 40+ years, runs down an icy luge are not my thing. Chattery groomers?  Sorry, saving knees for bumps. 

Although I often head to woods before leaving and sometimes salvage the day if they're soft...icy groomer is no indication of woods conditions. Hope I didn't let out a secret.


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## riverc0il (Oct 2, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> You will miss your Six Stars when you ski early season. Why not a quiver of two? Your new do it all ski and the six star for icy groomer days. It's just much more fun to ski a ski like the six stars in those conditions. No?
> 
> By the way, snowmonster....I'll see Riv at Kton. Because K will open first, remember? It's a divine revelation thing.


Actually, no. Not at all. Those Six Stars work great for wide open edge to edge runs with few people. They don't work great with traffic... they like to run fast and wide open turns. I have never used them early season (actually, I tried once and changed them after a single run). You don't know me, you don't know my style, you don't know my preferences. You don't know how my new ski handles groomers under my style and my preferences. Don't put your preferences on me and don't tell me what I will and will not miss. 

You know how many times I have skied those Six Stars since I bought them used? Less than a half dozen times. And half of those days I skied them, I changed them out for another ski.

You won't see me at K until they have Skye to Snowdon open. Otherwise, it is too crowded and too expensive for what is offered. Unless K picks up a good early season storm, and then I'll be hiking.


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## Puck it (Oct 2, 2012)

I will be on my Hell and Backs opening day or maybe the Palmers 01's (90mm). But nothing narrower.


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## Nick (Oct 4, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Yes, I openly admit again I like, no make that LOVE to stir up conversation in these types of threads. I sincerely apologize to you sir if my choice of words means I am trolling to you. I don't think many others feel that way. But since you are so clearly bothered by what I said, I will never again admit to stirring any pots.
> 
> Just to show you how sensitive people on the internet have become, when I openly admitted to stirring the pot in the past, Greg, the old owner of this site, made me an avatar which was basically my head photoshopped onto a picture of a chef stirring a big pot. I loved that avatar and displayed it proudly. And nobody had any issues with it.



Found it


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## JimG. (Oct 4, 2012)

Nick said:


> Found it



Simply outstanding!


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## Gilligan (Oct 4, 2012)

JimG. said:


> You know, promoting conversation on this site is what pays the bills.



Nick, you cut off the best part of that particular post of JimG's. You know, the part where he says he loves to "promote conversation" in order to help you "pay the bills". I copied it for you, above. You are welcome.

Lots of people on these boards purposely say things hoping to "still the pot" or get a rise out of people. I just happen to feel that moderators have a responsibility to try and keep things on track and should be above such behavior.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 4, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Nick, you cut off the best part of that particular post of JimG's. You know, the part where he says he loves to "promote conversation" in order to help you "pay the bills". I copied it for you, above. You are welcome.
> 
> Lots of people on these boards purposely say things hoping to "still the pot" or get a rise out of people. I just happen to feel that moderators have a responsibility to try and keep things on track and should be above such behavior.



You don't message board very much do you?  It's not like he even called anyone out in derogatory manor.  I have seen much worse by mods on other boards.   It's the internet not freaking national security.  I can't figure out why you are still crying about this 3 pages later. 

How's that for stirring the pot:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 4, 2012)

I had been purposely avoiding the annual Killington thread. There is so good discussion here but I have to add the obligatory "we really need some snow!"  :razz: 

And to Gilligan, just because someone is a moderator doesn't mean they can't have an opinion.


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## Gilligan (Oct 4, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> You don't message board very much do you?  It's not like he even called anyone out in derogatory manor.  I have seen much worse by mods on other boards.   It's the internet not freaking national security.  I can't figure out why you are still crying about this 3 pages later.
> 
> How's that for stirring the pot:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


3 pages later? Nick and JimG brought the subject back up. I was content to let it rest until then.

No, I do not post here much. Why should I help them pay the bills?


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## Nick (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm not thinking about it that deep. I just happened to run across the stir pot image and thought it was pretty funny


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## JimG. (Oct 4, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> 3 pages later? Nick and JimG brought the subject back up. I was content to let it rest until then.
> 
> No, I do not post here much. Why should I help them pay the bills?



Since you're the only one complaining, obviously I'm not too good at stirring the pot anyway.

I find it amazing that you are so incensed that I express my opinion and then enjoy and interact with the response. What else can you do online? 

And regarding the image, learn to take a joke.


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## bigbob (Oct 4, 2012)

Back to the topic at hand, Sunday River will blow marketing snow this weekend if temps allow.


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## jaybird (Oct 4, 2012)

Does their marketing budget pay for that, or do the skishops down in civilization help foot that bill, Bob?
Irrespective, natural will fall on Mt Pisgah Sunday nite into Monday.
...Sunday River will be rendered moot in a few short weeks


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2012)

bigbob said:


> Back to the topic at hand, Sunday River will blow marketing snow this weekend if temps allow.



Nice!


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## Vortex (Oct 5, 2012)

They arlready had a shot on the Web site of them having a gun going the other day.  It does not look cold enough to make snow, but I would love to see it.  Be there by 11 pm tonight. Fall fest is great to get back together with the Winter friends.  Pick up passes, renew some mugs its all good.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2012)

Bob R said:


> They arlready had a shot on the Web site of them having a gun going the other day. It does not look cold enough to make snow, but I would love to see it. Be there by 11 pm tonight. Fall fest is great to get back together with the Winter friends. Pick up passes, renew some mugs its all good.



Sounds like a fun weekend!


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## bigbob (Oct 5, 2012)

Looks like the current forecast is calling for Mother Nature to turn on the big snow gun in the sky Sunday night and Monday early AM!!


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## from_the_NEK (Oct 9, 2012)




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## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2012)

from_the_NEK said:


>



:lol:


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## powhunter (Oct 12, 2012)

:beer:


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## Vortex (Oct 12, 2012)

All can go to bed now


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## skiersleft (Oct 13, 2012)

Game, set, match to Skiersleft.

That is all.

P.S. mister moose should concede defeat and buy me a case of beer ASAP.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 13, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> 1. Killington's setup today (and since the stairway) is superior to sr's. No one debates this, so i hope you don't. The stairway gives killington an evident advantage over sr. And that's why they can now easily beat sr if they are so inclined.
> 
> 2. Assuming both open the same day (as they did last year...although killington did open earlier), it is obviously better to open and stay open a la k than to open and close a la sr. This is simply not debatable. And last year k opened and stayed open.
> 
> 3.* k will do the same this year. Open first. And then stay open.* stairway is a game changer. Sr days as king of fall are numbered.


*fail!!!*


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## skiersleft (Oct 13, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Who ever sends the first paying (pass or ticket) skier up the hill first.  Time counts.  If Killington is grooming it out until 10am and SR opens at 8, SR wins.  If they both open at the exact same time, there is no winner.



SKiersleft = Win

I get the case. Clearly. That is all. No fail here.


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## Gilligan (Oct 13, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> SKiersleft = Win
> 
> I get the case. Clearly. That is all. No fail here.



Typical Skiersleft -- desperately trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Nobody likes a braggart.


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