# Lodges that don't allow outside food



## Glenn (Dec 7, 2018)

I've heard some rumblings that the new Carinthia lodge at Mt. Snow won't allow outside food to be brought in. I've seen ski areas that don't allow coolers and I get that. They're bulky, can't go in the bag check slots and they don't want people camping out a table for 2 hours during lunch whilst they lay out a three course lunch. 

Are there other places that don't allow outside food in their base lodges?  I can't say I've come across that in recent years. My wife and I often bring in snacks in our bags or coats and have never had an issue.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2018)

Yes there are.  In my experience though if folks are respectful and don't take up too much space or time, they are fine.  

And I love your comment about people camping out.    I used to see it at Sugarbush North and Burke a lot.  I know we have at least one thread somewhere with folks commenting about this phenomenon.  I haven't really seen that out here much.  Mainly because most folks boot up at their cars and don't really use the lodge per se.  Some places don't even really have a true "lodge".


----------



## tumbler (Dec 7, 2018)

Glenn said:


> I've heard some rumblings that the new Carinthia lodge at Mt. Snow won't allow outside food to be brought in. I've seen ski areas that don't allow coolers and I get that. They're bulky, can't go in the bag check slots and they don't want people camping out a table for 2 hours during lunch whilst they lay out a three course lunch.
> 
> Are there other places that don't allow outside food in their base lodges?  I can't say I've come across that in recent years. My wife and I often bring in snacks in our bags or coats and have never had an issue.



Where does the crock pot full of chili fall in this?  And have to find a table to camp out at near an outlet to plug it in.  I chuckle when I see the mom trying to carry the overflowing crock pot up the stairs and into the lodge.  I do think that is a bit much, like the cooler.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 7, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Where does the crock pot full of chili fall in this?  And have to find a table to camp out at near an outlet to plug it in.  I chuckle when I see the mom trying to carry the overflowing crock pot up the stairs and into the lodge.  I do think that is a bit much, like the cooler.


See this a TON at many of the races my kids go to. Table cloth set up with the crock pot on the table, and that table is strictly off limits all but any immediate close friends/teammates all day....

As for the Carinthia lodge situation, I look at it not so much like a base lodge but more like a mid mountain or summit lodge.

Going to be interesting to see how this all plays out in the new Carinthia lodge. I hope they put extra trash cans in the parking lot, since my hunch is they'll be lots more eating (and drinking) out of cars in that lot....

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 7, 2018)

tumbler said:


> *Where does the crock pot full of chili fall in this? * And have to find a table to camp out at near an outlet to plug it in.  I chuckle when I see the mom trying to carry the overflowing crock pot up the stairs and into the lodge.  I do think that is a bit much, like the cooler.



This is a weird phenomena that you occasionally, though rarely see.  Except at Gore.  At Gore you'll see 5 to 10 crock pots going in the lodge.  I find it very strange.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 7, 2018)

drjeff said:


> See this a TON at many of the races my kids go to. Table cloth set up with the crock pot on the table, and *that table is strictly off limits all but any immediate close friends/teammates all day....*



Is that a rule established by the mountain, or is that just obnoxiously entitled "race people" behaviour?


----------



## FBGM (Dec 7, 2018)

Do you bring your food to Applebee’s? How about your own 6 pack to the bar. 

People who camp and cook out at ski resorts are dirty hippies or cheap bums. 

I’ll funnel my own beers in the parking lot and throw crushed empties at Jerry’s off the lift. That $25 burger tho goes to the bottom line. How else is Mt Blow going to be able to spread mulch? They can’t borrow any more funny money.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 7, 2018)

When I was a teenager we used to love just sitting down, start smelling the chili. Mom would get all pissed off and we'd ignore her. Not once did any of her supposedly family show up and claim these supposed reserved seats. You don't own the lodge. 

That all being said, I do find it funny that someone would get all in a huff about them not allowing food (ala start this thread). You going to roll into a restaurant and break out some sandwiches?


----------



## jimk (Dec 7, 2018)

Oooh.  This is a subject I get fired-up about.  I’m cheap and old.  I’ve been a DIY lunch person for 50 years of skiing.  (I’ve been a brown bagger at work for nearly as long.)  When my kids were young I did the crock pot in the ski lodge thing.  Occasionally, I do my own grilling in a base lot, or even better, somewhere up on the slopes.  To this day the vast majority of my ski lunches consist of a can of soda (sometimes other beverages), PB&J sandwich, chips, fruit, and candy, all brought from home in a backpack that I keep in my car, hide in a lodge, or bury beside a trail.   I have been told to cease and desist my PB&Js at some of the finest mtns in the country including Snowbird Summit Restaurant in 2017, Keystone Dercum Summit Lodge in 2015, etc. going way back. Does that food court at Stowe/Spruce base prohibit outside food?  I try to be discreet about pulling out my own food inside a ski lodge (or on lodge decks) whether there is a sign posted prohibiting outside food or not - to avoid awkward moments.  I have identified good spots at some of my favorite ski areas where I can eat my stuff without being bothered.  I buy my lunch once in a while, but sometimes those bigger lodge meals make me feel like a slug in the afternoon.  Even when I was doing the crock pot thing, I was sensitive about not hogging an empty table.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that a rule established by the mountain, or is that just obnoxiously entitled "race people" behaviour?


It's not so much the "entitled" race parents from larger mountains as much as it is the race parents from smaller mountains. Since for most races, you need to have your kids at the mountain before 1st chair, the "crock pot crew" gets their pick of prime tables with outlet access before the masses hit the base lodge, and then if those parents aren't skiing that day (some racer parents will ski on race day, while others just hike to watch their kids runs) they're hanging out at the table, and holding spaces for when their kids come in, basically all day

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2018)

We all KNOW almost all restaurants demand "no outside food". We rarely violate that rule. After all, the very existence of a restaurant is to SELL food for a profit. 

A ski lodge is a bit funny though. The restaurant is only part of the lodge. The rest of the lodge are usually for people booting up and just resting. It's no surprise people feel they should be allowed to drink from their Camelpack or eat a power bar. Cooler and crokpot? It's really pushing it. But what about a sandwich and soup out of the backpack? 

The unreasonably pricy lodge food makes the water even murkier still.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Dec 7, 2018)

Base lodges are much less of a thing in the Western US.  Particularly base lodges where you can camp out all day and leave your stuff everywhere.  Outside food?  Mostly nope.


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 7, 2018)

Forrest for the Tees?.......I love cheap passes , cheap food ,but complain when my favorite ski area goes NELSAP??????

I do my best to save on passes but will spend $$$$ in the Cafe "IF" the food is good ....although pisses me off to see tables and chairs with Shit on and no one around.


----------



## dansherpa (Dec 7, 2018)

Race parent here. Consider this. You arrive at the mountain at 7am, before they are serving any food. By the time food is being served your kiddo is up on the hill inspecting the course. They do their first run, come in for 30 minutes to eat something before they have to head back out to inspect the course for the second run. Those 30 minutes are typically right around rush hour for the cafeteria, so they can either spend 20 minutes buying food and wolf it down in 10 minutes, or they eat the brown bag lunch you brought for them and relax a little. No crockpots for me. It's not about money, it's about time. Trust me, the mountain is getting their money's worth. After the race the kids are going to be buying plenty of $5 candy bars and $10 onion rings. And, I just paid $69 for her two runs.

If I'm sitting in a chair, the only expectation is that I get that chair. If I get up - no longer my chair. Did I get a "nice" chair because I got there early? Sure. You're welcome to come early too though. Any empty chairs are up for grabs - no saving seats.


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 7, 2018)

No one is going to feel bad that your kid only has 30 minutes for lunch. 

This is literally every working person's daily life as an adult. I think they'll survive.


----------



## dansherpa (Dec 7, 2018)

Not asking you to feel bad - just outlining the thought process for bringing my own lunch.


----------



## gmcunni (Dec 7, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> No one is going to feel bad that your kid only has 30 minutes for lunch.
> 
> This is literally every working person's daily life as an adult. I think they'll survive.



I get an hour


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 7, 2018)

Brown bagging is one thing .Setting up your own kitchen ?  

I always eat early or late, never noon and somehow there still tables that look like Mt Everest with shit piled up .


----------



## ss20 (Dec 7, 2018)

FBGM said:


> People who camp and cook out at ski resorts are dirty hippies or cheap bums.



This May I'll make you a banner with this printed on it and you have to hold it above your head at the bottom of the Superstar lift at Killington, pointed towards the campers/tents/grills on the access road.  Those dirty hippies are gonna stick some ski poles and grill tongs up holes you didn't even know you had!


----------



## andrec10 (Dec 7, 2018)

gmcunni said:


> I get an hour



So do I. And I work from home!


----------



## Harvey (Dec 7, 2018)

I'm with the ski mountain on this.  Do they make "too much money" in this business? I have no idea.

But it is their business. How about we raise the price of skiing by $20 a day and allow any outside food, cooking whatever?  Or maybe just don't allow outside food and then the cost is borne more fairly.

I say brown bags ok, be quick and don't monopolize the table on a busy day.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2018)

At Cannon you get relegated to the basement to brown bag it


----------



## Scruffy (Dec 7, 2018)




----------



## snoseek (Dec 8, 2018)

Big old Shoutout to loveland for having multiple places to grill off/bake your lunch (Oregon stove was my jam) and unless it changed a straight kitchen with plugs and a sink for your crackpot. You wanna eat your lunch downstairs in the bar? Yeah that's cool. Vail actually has a sweet grill spot on the top of blue ski....yeah you gotta plan and bring your own charcoal but beats the hell out of a 20 dollar ala cart burger. If a place isn't lunch friendly they don't get my 2 pint lunch money...ill go to the car.


----------



## granite (Dec 8, 2018)

I take my own food into a lodge quite often.  However, I always buy something from the cafeteria to go with it, a beverage and some other type of food item.  I usually buy a beer after skiing too.  So, I don't feel guilty bringing my own food into any lodge.


----------



## granite (Dec 8, 2018)

I think it depends on the lodge too and type of food/beverage outlet.  For instance, I'll take my own food into the Cannon base lodge cafeteria.  However, I would never take it into the Cannoball Pub-a bar/restaurant- right next to the cafeteria area.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 8, 2018)

granite said:


> I take my own food into a lodge quite often.  However, I always buy something from the cafeteria to go with it, a beverage and some other type of food item.  I usually buy a beer after skiing too.  So, I don't feel guilty bringing my own food into any lodge.


 
I fall into this category. I may bring sandwiches once in a while, but end up getting coffee/soda/beer/booze and sides like fries and whatnot to go with it. I'm ok with that, and we don't hog tables all day.


----------



## Nick (Dec 8, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Do you bring your food to Applebee’s? How about your own 6 pack to the bar.
> 
> People who camp and cook out at ski resorts are dirty hippies or cheap bums.
> 
> I’ll funnel my own beers in the parking lot and throw crushed empties at Jerry’s off the lift. That $25 burger tho goes to the bottom line. How else is Mt Blow going to be able to spread mulch? They can’t borrow any more funny money.



I mean tbh i don't think a lodge is a fair comparison to a restaurant. A lodge is more like a cafeteria. It's not table service (unless you are in the restaurant ares, in which case I would get it). But esp for a family or similar, the food can outprice the lift tickets. NOt everyone can swing that. Maybe a famliy can get more ski days in in a year by spending money on tickets instead of chili bread bowls.


----------



## Nick (Dec 8, 2018)

Harvey said:


> I'm with the ski mountain on this.  Do they make "too much money" in this business? I have no idea.
> 
> But it is their business. How about we raise the price of skiing by $20 a day and allow any outside food, cooking whatever?  Or maybe just don't allow outside food and then the cost is borne more fairly.
> 
> I say brown bags ok, be quick and don't monopolize the table on a busy day.



I'm in this one. I don't think you should crockpot it up in there. A thermos or packable lunch is one thing. Don't hog the table.


----------



## jimk (Dec 8, 2018)

I get that resorts are entitled to make a buck with their food service operations, and that for a lot of folks a good lunch during a ski day is big part of the fun.  But for an old schooler like me, I think ski lodges are firstly a retreat from the cold;  i.e., a place to get your gear sorted at the start of a day and a safe refuge when you get cold and/or hungry any time during your visit.   On really harsh/cold days they are not just a money maker for hungry and captive guests, they are necessary shelter that any responsible resort must provide free of cost (with lift ticket) in the interest of public safety. 

Having said that, in the US East most resorts offer lodges that are much more user-friendly to guests in general and particularly to brown baggers, then in the US West.  Also, I recently visited some ski areas in Western Canada such as Lake Louise, Revy and Mt. Norquay and found them to be super friendly to brown baggers and great about providing free cubbies in lodges for storing your stuff during the day.

Not my photo (from admin at FTOL), but one of my favorite places in Utah for no-hassle brown bagging lunch is a heated room with comfy chairs, big windows and nearby restrooms, in lower level of the mid-mtn Mid Gad Restaurant at Snowbird, behind entrance sign:





Just don't try to take your peanut butter and jelly sandwich up to the Snowbird Summit Restaurant.:idea:


----------



## granite (Dec 8, 2018)

The other thing, I've been skiing for 50 years and have spent a zillion dollars on the sport.  If I want to bring my own lunch into their cafeteria style seating area, I'm going to do it.  I go outside to picnic tables a lot too, would rather be out in the fresh air then inside a stuffy, crowded lodge.


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 8, 2018)

granite said:


> I go outside to picnic tables a lot too, would rather be out in the fresh air then inside a stuffy, crowded lodge.



Just a heads up, no outside food will be allowed on the deck also.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Here is the issue,* some folks simply can not afford slope side food, it's bloody expensive. And bring the whole family? Wow! You'll pay as much for the eats and drinks as those lift tickets. *



I dont have any kids, so I've never even considered that, but yeah, that is a great point.  The wife and I had 2 sodas & 2 burgers at Magic last weekend and it came to $42.  That's pretty nuts.  Toss 2 or 3 kids into the equation and I can see how that gets ugly quick.




uphillklimber said:


> Ski resorts should realize that* skiing is a declining industry. Some shrinkage every year.*



Is this really true?  I hear this every year, and demographically, it makes perfect sense to me.   Yet simultaneously it seems like I keep hearing about, "record skier visits", etc.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2018)

snoseek said:


> Big old Shoutout to loveland for having multiple places to grill off/bake your lunch



I absolutely loved that place.  One of my favorite places I've ever skied.  Has that (now) rare Mom & Poppy' feeling I love, akin to a Plattekill, Magic, Smuggs, MRG, etc....


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 8, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> The wife and I had 2 sodas & 2 burgers at Magic last weekend and it came to $42.  That's pretty nuts.



That seems pretty danged high! Especially for what I would be expecting from Magic.


----------



## Riverveteran (Dec 8, 2018)

How about this - if you know you are going skiing don’t eat out at home that week?  You gotta feed the family whether you are home or on the slopes, learn to balance it.  Eat cheap meals at home the weeks you ski.  

The criock potters are are the first to complain about conditions. Ski resorts area a business they need/have multiple lines of revenue to be successful.


----------



## abc (Dec 8, 2018)

Riverveteran said:


> How about this - if you know you are going skiing don’t eat out at home that week?  You gotta feed the family whether you are home or on the slopes, learn to balance it.  Eat cheap meals at home the weeks you ski.


Or I can ski less. Many of my casual skier friends had quit skiing completely, unable to justify the cost. 

As far as I’m concern, the season has a total budget. The more I pay for food, the less I have left over for lift ticket and gas. So the more I spend for food, the fewer days I ski to keep the same budget.

I’m not complaining. The more expensive the TOTAL cost of skiing, the less I ski. End of story. 

It’s up to the ski mountain to decide if they want to charge me a lot for a few days per season, or charge a reasonable per day, and I’ll come more often. But below a certain number of days, I quit completely and bought a mountain bike. (1995-2005). It was the multi-mountain low cost pass brought me back in, brown bagging about half the days. The mountain can take it ALL away by insisting “no outside food”. Their choice. 

I’m not complaining. I still have my mountain bike. No lift ticket needed.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 8, 2018)

While total skier visits are flat to slightly down over the last decade or so, the daily yield for many resorts, and in particular many larger resorts is up.

Is that a good thing? A bad thing? Or just something relative to one's perspective??

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 8, 2018)

As a family, we almost always brown bag for a couple of reasons - 

-  the cost.  Family of 4, lunch at a lodge can easily be $80 or more.  Over the course of a season, brown bagging it  means a couple more days worth of lift tickets. We'd rather spend cash on tickets than crappy food.

-  Diet - family of four with two vegetarians - I dare you to find edible vegetarian food at the pokes or catskills ski mountains.  And even for the none veggies...most of the food sucks at these places.

-  Time - standing in line, waiting on the food at a place like stowe (where it's good, but slow) checking out, then hawking for a table, etc....wtf?  I just paid $90 for a lift ticket and you want to make be spend an hour of m day trying to buy and consume your food?  

-  Vibe.  I get really pissed when they try to milk me for more.  

But hey, it's the way of the world.  Everything is about money. But I really aappriciat a place that doesn't make me feel lie an outlaw for bringing a sandwich to he lodge.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 9, 2018)

Time is a good point. We were leaving the lodge yesterday as the lunch hour crowd was rolling in. Lines to get into the caf area were really long...past the cashiers. 

I haven't seen a crock pot at a lodge in some time! But I do remember seeing those years ago at Mt. Snow...I think over in the Sundance lodge. 

I've always looked at the lodge as the place to gear up...and down...and eat. If you are seated at a place where: You need to be seated by someone or there are servers bringing food, that's not a place to gear up or bring outside food. 

Mountains have a right to make rules as they see fit. And like trail count, they should be accurate in their descriptions. If they don't allow outside food, that's their prerogative. Just don't call it a lodge; call it a base restaurant.


----------



## MommaBear (Dec 9, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Here is the issue, some folks simply can not afford slope side food, it's bloody expensive. And bring the whole family? Wow! You'll pay as much for the eats and drinks as those lift tickets. Skiing is a pretty expensive sport to begin with. Just add up everything attached to your body when skiing, multiply that by the whole family, then pay resort prices for food on top of this? It took some considerable savings and bargain hunting to outfit the family and get lift tickets. If we were going skiing, it was definitely a brown bag day....



^^  This  ^^

We did what we could to keep a family of 5 out on the mountain most weekends (along with some of the kids' friends).  Brown bagging it was one easy way to save.  And we already weren't eating out at home.  But the memories and just being able to spend time with my kids was well worth the scrimping and saving.  Maybe the mountains (and town, since we cooked in as well - thou we did support the local grocery store!) didn't make a ton of money off of us.  But it has 5 skiers for life.  That has to be worth something.


----------



## MommaBear (Dec 9, 2018)

And in all fairness Glen, the Sundance lodge is available to bring food in to and unless things have changed, the main base lodge tolerates it.  It was mentioned that the Main Base is also no outside food, but I don't ever recall seeing a sign.

I just don't understand why they created the community they did in Carinthia over the past few years, and then put in a base lodge that goes against the typical user (younger adult with no money).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 9, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> *That seems pretty danged high!
> 
> Especially for what I would be expecting from Magic.*



The food at Magic is very expensive.  I'll give you another example, as we also had breakfast there:

2 egg, ham & cheese, on muffins + 1 Gatorade = $18   LOL   The little breakfast sandwiches were $6.50 each!


----------



## Glenn (Dec 9, 2018)

MommaBear said:


> And in all fairness Glen, the Sundance lodge is available to bring food in to and unless things have changed, the main base lodge tolerates it.  It was mentioned that the Main Base is also no outside food, but I don't ever recall seeing a sign.
> 
> I just don't understand why they created the community they did in Carinthia over the past few years, and then put in a base lodge that goes against the typical user (younger adult with no money).



Well put. It seems like it goes against the grain of the target market for park skiers and riders.


----------



## NYDB (Dec 9, 2018)

MommaBear said:


> And in all fairness Glen, the Sundance lodge is available to bring food in to and unless things have changed, the main base lodge tolerates it.  It was mentioned that the Main Base is also no outside food, but I don't ever recall seeing a sign.
> 
> I just don't understand why they created the community they did in Carinthia over the past few years, and then put in a base lodge that goes against the typical user (younger adult with no money).


Maybe they are banking on younger park rats with resort charging on their seasons pass. Also, people under 30 are not bringing bag lunches or crockpots.  

Young people spend alot of money on food and bev.  Moreso than their income would dictate.  

Sent from my SM-G960U using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 9, 2018)

Entertaining in a sad way . Not saying F&B revenue will make or break a mountain but sure it adds up .


----------



## FBGM (Dec 9, 2018)

ss20 said:


> This May I'll make you a banner with this printed on it and you have to hold it above your head at the bottom of the Superstar lift at Killington, pointed towards the campers/tents/grills on the access road.  Those dirty hippies are gonna stick some ski poles and grill tongs up holes you didn't even know you had!



That’s called tailgating....

Jerry with his family of 6 and 4 bags of food from Costco posting up in the lodge is cheap

Tele skier with dreads eating pb&j and Roman noodles is hippy dirt bag


----------



## Whitey (Dec 10, 2018)

I'm like a lot who post here and do a combination of buy and bring.  With 4 ppl in my family & usually a couple of tag along friends of my boys - food at ski mountains gets expensive fast.   Someone mentioned the "total budget for the ski season" concept and that's where I am at.   The more I spend on food, hotels, gear, etc  the less I have to buy lift tix.   So I gotta find some savings where I can & use the savings for lift tix.    

I had to compromise because my spoiled rotten kids (JK, they are OK - just aren't big sandwich ppl) don't like a basic sandwich out of a cooler.   So I let them buy lunch for themselves but I bring a cooler with drinks and they get their drinks from that.   I bring my own lunch.   So the boys get a couple of burgers/chic/whatever but everything else we bring.    The other thing I do is throw a couple of cans of beer in the cooler.   Most times I don't have time or the desire to do a full blown apres-ski bar thing.    2 beers at the end of the day while I get changed/out of my boots does the trick and saves a lot of $.   

I don't do crock pots or anything like that.   A turkey sandwich and some soup in a smaller thermos.  Something like the mini-thermos pictured here is great to have something hot to eat that you can bring yourself:


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2018)

i havent brought my own food on hill yet this season except for day1 at K knowing that i'd have to climb to the peak lodge if i wanted to buy, but that's mainly because i've just been eating a good breakfast and then feasting on junk/fast food after wrapping for the day. i also usually have 4-6 beers stashed on me. 

on my western trips i am religious about bringing snacks and food. the arrival day ritual is to hit the grocery store for sliced turkey, cheese, maybe some avocado, two loaves of bread, peanut butter, jelly, and various snackables like chocolate and goldfish. i refuse to pay for ski-lodge lunch 7 days in a row, thats crazy.


----------



## skiMEbike (Dec 10, 2018)

jimk said:


> I think ski lodges are firstly a retreat from the cold;  i.e., a place to get your gear sorted at the start of a day and a safe refuge when you get cold and/or hungry any time during your visit.



To me this is the most important thing....You have to have space for people to just sit down & get away from the cold and not be forced to "buy food".   That said I think it is perfectly "ok" for these mid mountain "restaurants" to kick people out if they are not a paying customer, as long as the Mountain has a place (another location) for skiers to escape the cold.  I do think bringing crock pots into a lodge setting up a table cloth with place settings is a bit over the top, and should be banned on the basis of it being a fire hazard.


----------



## Abominable (Dec 10, 2018)

I LOVE going into the lodge at a Bousquet or a Catamount and seeing all the racer families sprawled out, crockpots and peanut butter crackers, snivelly little kids running around screaming, helmets, boots, scarves all strewn about carelessly.  I find it very nostalgic and wholesome and hope to do the same with my family.

Buncha no fun hedge fund managers in here, sheesh.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 10, 2018)

Abominable said:


> I LOVE going into the lodge at a Bousquet or a Catamount and seeing all the racer families sprawled out, crockpots and peanut butter crackers, snivelly little kids running around screaming, helmets, boots, scarves all strewn about carelessly.  I find it very nostalgic and wholesome and hope to do the same with my family.
> 
> Buncha no fun hedge fund managers in here, sheesh.



Oh good it's not just me with this sentiment.  It brings me back to yesteryear...I started skiing regularly when I was 10 so I've got many middle/high school memories of friends and I taking up entire tables in the lodge.  

I like seeing kids have fun in the lodge.  Sometimes I walk into these ski lodges (midweek) and it looks like the retirement home bus just dropped off the crowd.  And of course there's an 80yo man with his shirt off, putting on base layers.  Youthful energy is mostly refreshing to me and not annoying.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 10, 2018)

MommaBear said:


> And in all fairness Glen, the Sundance lodge is available to bring food in to and unless things have changed, the main base lodge tolerates it.  It was mentioned that the Main Base is also no outside food, but I don't ever recall seeing a sign.
> 
> I just don't understand why they created the community they did in Carinthia over the past few years, and then put in a base lodge that goes against the typical user (younger adult with no money).



Because they want the young adults WITH money!


----------



## ss20 (Dec 10, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Because they want the young adults WITH money!



I don't think that's the idea.  They want to "capture" college students (who in theory will have a good job after school) so when they HAVE money they'll be loyal to the mountain of their younger years.  My take is that the mountains are handing out cheap college passes because this is when most people fall out of love with skiing.  Time and money become short in supply.  Keep college kids on the hill, and in 10 years they'll have a season pass, as will their wife, their first-born will be 4 years old and needing a seasonal lesson program, and their baby will need daycare also provided by the mountain.  Those are the people that are money-making machines.  

If the mountains wanted young people with money then wouldn't there be more 20-something passes?  That'd include all "young people".  Add in the "college" requirement of it an you have someone qualified to make a 6 figure salary down the road to spend at your resort.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 10, 2018)

No... the money isn't in the passes, it's the food and beverage. They give them the cheap passes, to have a captive audience, and what you adult doesn't spend all they have at the bar? I know me and my crowd did back in the day...


----------



## mbedle (Dec 10, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Oh good it's not just me with this sentiment.  It brings me back to yesteryear...I started skiing regularly when I was 10 so I've got many middle/high school memories of friends and I taking up entire tables in the lodge.
> 
> I like seeing kids have fun in the lodge.  Sometimes I walk into these ski lodges (midweek) and it looks like the retirement home bus just dropped off the crowd.  And of course there's an 80yo man with his shirt off, putting on base layers.  Youthful energy is mostly refreshing to me and not annoying.



Hey now - that retirement crowd can be a lot of fun..... lol


----------



## jm99 (Dec 10, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I don't think that's the idea.  They want to "capture" college students (who in theory will have a good job after school) so when they HAVE money they'll be loyal to the mountain of their younger years.  My take is that the mountains are handing out cheap college passes because this is when most people fall out of love with skiing.  Time and money become short in supply.  Keep college kids on the hill, and in 10 years they'll have a season pass, as will their wife, their first-born will be 4 years old and needing a seasonal lesson program, and their baby will need daycare also provided by the mountain.  Those are the people that are money-making machines.
> 
> If the mountains wanted young people with money then wouldn't there be more 20-something passes?  That'd include all "young people".  Add in the "college" requirement of it an you have someone qualified to make a 6 figure salary down the road to spend at your resort.



Yup, I am exactly that guy they wanted to capture... Got a Double Down as soon as I transferred to UMass and then the Drifter the next three years including this one.  Mt. Snow was like an hour from Amherst so it was awesome as I only had class 2 days a week for most of college; my senior year I even made it to all of the 7 resorts on the Peak Pass at the time.  I'm out of school back in Eastern Mass and my friends and I all still have Drifter passes even though Snow is like 2.5h away from here, it's just such a good deal. Definitely has enticed me to buy a few more beers at the Bullwheel and Wildcat Pub than I otherwise would have...


----------



## AdironRider (Dec 10, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> No... the money isn't in the passes, it's the food and beverage. They give them the cheap passes, to have a captive audience, and what you adult doesn't spend all they have at the bar? I know me and my crowd did back in the day...



Vail would disagree with you. F&B pales in comparison to pass/ticket revenue.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Vail would disagree with you. F&B pales in comparison to pass/ticket revenue.


And margin.  

When I worked for Intrawest (Snowshoe), tickets and passes were about 70% of annual revenue and 90% of the profit.  Ski school was a high profit center for their mountains.  F&B were lucky to break even many years.  

I'm always amused when people assume mountains make a bunch of money off F&B operations.  They don't, even with the high prices.   It's an extremely difficult balance to make any $$ annually off F&B at ski areas, especially in the East where almost all the business is crammed into two days a week. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## HowieT2 (Dec 10, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> And margin.
> 
> When I worked for Intrawest (Snowshoe), tickets and passes were about 70% of annual revenue and 90% of the profit.  Ski school was a high profit center for their mountains.  F&B were lucky to break even many years.
> 
> ...



that may be true but it didnt seem that way to me when I paid 8 bucks for a small bowl of mac n cheese.
t


----------



## ss20 (Dec 10, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> And margin.
> 
> When I worked for Intrawest (Snowshoe), tickets and passes were about 70% of annual revenue and 90% of the profit.  Ski school was a high profit center for their mountains.  F&B were lucky to break even many years.
> 
> ...



Ditto 100x.  Do sports stadiums make their money in F&B?  No.  They make money by charging $200 to put an ass in a seat.  Do ski resorts make money with F&B?  No, they make it by selling ski lessons taught by instructors making $12, and renting out skis for $60 a day that pay for themselves in 4-6 uses, and charging $150 a night at a hotel.  Not off of $8 burgers...which, in all honesty...probably has a higher cost than most think.  

Food and bev in both industries is expensive because you HAVE to eat there or bring your own.  You're not gonna stroll to the nearest McDonalds exactly.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 10, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> that may be true but it didnt seem that way to me when I paid 8 bucks for a small bowl of mac n cheese.
> t



That's a lot of labor cost.  Culinary is a place where it's hard to cheap out.  Lots of health districts require someone with food safety training on-staff at all times.  Not saying this person is making crazy $$$ but it's more than the ski industry standard of minimum wage plus a dime if you're lucky.


----------



## benski (Dec 10, 2018)

ss20 said:


> That's a lot of labor cost.  Culinary is a place where it's hard to cheap out.  Lots of health districts require someone with food safety training on-staff at all times.  Not saying this person is making crazy $$$ but it's more than the ski industry standard of minimum wage plus a dime if you're lucky.



Isn't that true of many pizza places that charge less for the same thing? I am not sure how a slice of pizza at a ski resort costs 2x what it costs in NYC.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2018)

benski said:


> Isn't that true of many pizza places that charge less for the same thing? I am not sure how a slice of pizza at a ski resort costs 2x what it costs in NYC.


Well, the ingredients are going to cost a lot more at a ski resort than a Manhattan pizza shop.  Not 100% more, but quite a bit.  Fewer vendors in ski country competing for the shops business and as with anything else, volume drives down costs of goods.  I'd be willing to bet a ski area pizza shop is paying on the order of 50% more for flour, cheese and everything else vs a Manhattan shop.

But the biggest difference is a place in Manhattan has the ability to make money 365 days a year.  An eastern ski area F&B operation?  Maybe 50.  So, those 50 days you better be making enough money to cover the 315 days you are running in the red. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## skiur (Dec 11, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, the ingredients are going to cost a lot more at a ski resort than a Manhattan pizza shop.  Not 100% more, but quite a bit.  Fewer vendors in ski country competing for the shops business and as with anything else, volume drives down costs of goods.  I'd be willing to bet a ski area pizza shop is paying on the order of 50% more for flour, cheese and everything else vs a Manhattan shop.
> 
> But the biggest difference is a place in Manhattan has the ability to make money 365 days a year.  An eastern ski area F&B operation?  Maybe 50.  So, those 50 days you better be making enough money to cover the 315 days you are running in the red.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I would disagree, maybe it costs the ski resort more for ingredients than it costs a pizza place in Westchester or LI, but go into the city, especially Manhattan and those ingredients cost just went up 50%.  Pizza places in the city do have the luxury of selling a shit load of pizza 7 days a week while ski resorts have to sell the majority of it on the weekend only.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 11, 2018)

Lodge food has always been expensive because as DH points out from his experience it needs to be.  Plus they have a captive audience so they can charge more.  Like a beer at Fenway costs $11!  I still buy it though.  At least a lot of the resorts have upped the food game so the quality is much better than it used to be.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 11, 2018)

I thought I read awhile back F&B only counted for about 10% of total revenue. Not sure if I'm in correct in that number. 

Apres gets pricy. A couple drinks and an app at the mountain can be as much as a dinner out in the flatlands on a weeknight at a local place.


----------



## mister moose (Dec 11, 2018)

A few numbers to give some perspective:

(Vail Resorts, mountain related income,  2017 annual report)   _In millions._

Lift tickets, passes $818  51%
Retail, rental........ $293  18%
Other.................. $172  11%
Ski School............ $178  11%
​Dining................. $151    9%​

"ETP"  or average yield on lift revenue per skier visit  $67.93

Multi profit center businesses like this can slide the beads on the abacus in several ways.  Does F&B absorb a share of G&A, or is it pure supplemental income?  In other words, how much of the high capital cost of running the resort are you going to allocate to selling a burger?

The ETP number consists of a mix of all ticket types; dividing the cost of an Epic pass at ~$900 gets you 13 days per pass sold.  Not a big number.

While F&B _revenue_ is ~10% as Glenn remembers, I'm not too sure the _margin_ there isn't pretty good.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 11, 2018)

Glenn said:


> I thought I read awhile back F&B only counted for about 10% of total revenue. Not sure if I'm in correct in that number.
> 
> Apres gets pricy. A couple drinks and an app at the mountain can be as much as a dinner out in the flatlands on a weeknight at a local place.



But I thought you liked homemade food?  And just do...


----------



## puckoach (Dec 11, 2018)

First off, SiliconBobSquarePants  post should hit our nerves a little.  Here in the NH/VT/ME region, we have lost a few ski area's over the years.  With a few others, that are just holding on.

I get that this site is in part driven by people that seek to ski economically.  For some of the elements, I do to.

But, as an operator of seasonal businesses for more than a few decades, it's possible a few thoughts should be added into the thread.

The biggest hurdle is a seasonal business is staffing.  Which has gotten more difficult, as our populace evolves.  Reluctance to certain physical tasks, reduced work ethic, full time year round 9-5 for 5 (or less) is now a general attitude.    A good economy has a further impact.  Recruiting costs money per add click.  Despite clear message that a job is weekends and Holiday's, once on boarded, "I can't work on ……..  

The snow makers and groomers are a unique breed, with their own culture.  Great workers, long hours, tough conditions.  But, did you know that some are from New Zealand or Australia.  Or, that some USA residents work the South American ski area's during our summer ?

I had a waiter a few years ago at the Mt Washington Hotel.  Was there for the winter, worked Key West during the Spring, and was a guide in Denali National Park for a cruise line in the summer.

Some Ski Area's import lifites too.  Or, F & B help.  Where to they stay, and at who's cost ?  

I'm sure some area's use recent retirees, working them on weekends for the skiing benefit during the week.  Maybe some school age mothers hours workers too.  But, getting an entire staff, and managing them is a challenge, and it costs.

Depending on the state, what does a ski area get assessed for Unemployment taxes, when their experience shows they lay off 70 people for 8 months a year.  

I am not trying to change the world here.  But, I would like to get people to stop trying to OWN a table in the lodge.  

Final comments, 

Leave your blue tooth speaker at home.  We all have different tastes in music.  

As to a crock pot, if it's my lodge, I'm coming with the wire cutters...…


----------



## ss20 (Dec 11, 2018)

The cheap pass wars are the final nail in the coffin for ski area employment.  If you needed a cheap pass to your favorite ski place you'd bump chairs 2 days a week to get the pass (worth $1000 or so).  Now with this "pass wars" phenomenon and passes that cost under $500 why bother with the job?  The effect is worse with 20-somethings that are a critical component of a resort's labor.  Their passes are even cheaper...*sigh*.  

I really think this is going to be the season where we start seeing the effects that lack of staff can play at a resort.  Everyone is severely understaffed.  Either pass prices have to go up, resorts have to pay more than minimum wage, or the economy has to tank before this gets better.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2018)

skiur said:


> I would disagree, maybe it costs the ski resort more for ingredients than it costs a pizza place in Westchester or LI, but go into the city, especially Manhattan and those ingredients cost just went up 50%.  Pizza places in the city do have the luxury of selling a shit load of pizza 7 days a week while ski resorts have to sell the majority of it on the weekend only.


No they don't.  I used to work in wholesale food supplies to restaurants.  The prices were actually lower in Manhattan than even Westchester.   Same goes for Boston vs suburbs.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## jimk (Dec 11, 2018)

puckoach said:


> As to a crock pot, if it's my lodge, I'm coming with the wire cutters...…



That line gave me one of my best belly laughs in quite a while
Good overall post with some valid stuff to think about.


----------



## skiur (Dec 11, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> No they don't.  I used to work in wholesale food supplies to restaurants.  The prices were actually lower in Manhattan than even Westchester.   Same goes for Boston vs suburbs.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



How long ago?  Prices has skyrocketed in the last few years due to rising transportaion costs.  Unless owners are driving out to hunts point and getting there own, they certainly have gone up a lot.  Having shit delivered into manhattan is not economical.  Add in rent to the equation and it is extremely difficult for a pizza place to make money in Manhattan.  Not saying ski resorts have it easy, but its certainly easier than Manhattan.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2018)

mister moose said:


> The ETP number consists of a mix of all ticket types; *dividing the cost of an Epic pass at ~$900 gets you 13 days per pass sold.*  Not a big number.



And I'll bet the average EPIC pass holder spends less than 13 days on the slopes.



deadheadskier said:


> No they don't. * I used to work in wholesale food supplies to restaurants.  The prices were actually lower in Manhattan *than even Westchester.   Same goes for Boston vs suburbs.



How is that possible?   If defies economics, as well as my decade of life in Manhattan.    Perhaps if you're a giant chain you can volumetrically bring the costs down by buying a ******** of flour or mushrooms, etc..., but for the average mom & pop store I cant believe your example is financially possible.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2018)

ss20 said:


> The cheap pass wars are the final nail in the coffin for ski area employment.  If you needed a cheap pass to your favorite ski place you'd bump chairs 2 days a week to get the pass (worth $1000 or so).  *Now with this "pass wars" phenomenon and passes that cost under $500 why bother with the job?*



Wow, that's a great thought I hadnt considered.  

 I'm a great example of this, I worked at Stowe for 6 years because my recently out-of-college azz couldnt afford the...... I may be wrong, but I think the pass was between $1,000-$1,300 those years.  

Which is worse than it sounds due to inflation, but mostly due to the destruction of the USD over the years, as $1,300 is closer to $2,000 in today's money.  But in 2018?   Yeah, I'd surely pony-up the $669 for an EPIC Local pass.  Big difference between a youngster paying $2,000 versus $669, and not insignificantly, "youngsters" are the target ski jobs demographic.


----------



## Abominable (Dec 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> How is that possible?   If defies economics, as well as my decade of life in Manhattan.    Perhaps if you're a giant chain you can volumetrically bring the costs down by buying a ******** of flour or mushrooms, etc..., but for the average mom & pop store I cant believe your example is financially possible.



Having lived in both the city and Wchester, it's surprising (but maybe it shouldn't be) that lots of stuff is more expensive outside of the city.  Real estate / rents _might_ be cheaper for a storefront, but things like groceries and other foodstuffs, or even something like gasoline, the city is such a major import hub and there's so many distributors of the stuff it's cheaper.

Labor costs have to be more expensive in the city if you're talking minimum wage and benefits and such, but I bet in the city there's more ways to get around it.

And to Puckoach's point, my job has me looking at lots of different types of operations around the county, and labor costs and staffing difficulties are often the biggest problem for ownership.


----------



## Glenn (Dec 11, 2018)

mister moose said:


> A few numbers to give some perspective:
> 
> (Vail Resorts, mountain related income,  2017 annual report)   _In millions._
> 
> ...



This is a great breakdown. Thanks for sharing. 



ss20 said:


> But I thought you liked homemade food?  And just do...



LOL! I seriously do! But I think the spammer who posted that is long gone. I'll have to find another one to memorialize in the ol' sig.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2018)

Abominable said:


> Having lived in both the city and Wchester, it's surprising (but maybe it shouldn't be) that *lots of stuff is more expensive outside of the city. * Real estate / rents _might_ be cheaper for a storefront, but *things like groceries and other foodstuffs, or even something like gasoline*, the city is such a major import hub and there's so many distributors of the stuff *it's cheaper.*
> 
> Labor costs have to be more expensive in the city if you're talking minimum wage and benefits and such, but I bet in the city there's more ways to get around it.



Having lived here literally my entire life, that is not my experience at all. 

 Do you buy your own groceries?   I spent a decade ferrying groceries into Manhattan from Jersey, and it wasnt because I enjoyed humping milk & salsa.  Or perhaps Westchester is it's own extremely expensive microcosm and is thus a very bad comparative example.   Put another way, there are other places "outside of the city" where hedge fund managers dont live.


----------



## skiur (Dec 11, 2018)

Abominable said:


> Having lived in both the city and Wchester, it's surprising (but maybe it shouldn't be) that lots of stuff is more expensive outside of the city.  Real estate / rents _might_ be cheaper for a storefront, but things like groceries and other foodstuffs, or even something like gasoline, the city is such a major import hub and there's so many distributors of the stuff it's cheaper.
> 
> Labor costs have to be more expensive in the city if you're talking minimum wage and benefits and such, but I bet in the city there's more ways to get around it.
> 
> And to Puckoach's point, my job has me looking at lots of different types of operations around the county, and labor costs and staffing difficulties are often the biggest problem for ownership.



You can get gas cheaper in manhattan then outside of it? Come on man, that is just ridicules, gas is currently around $2.75 a gallon for regular in the city, go out to queens its about $2.59 and in Nassau county its $2.45.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> And I'll bet the average EPIC pass holder spends less than 13 days on the slopes.
> 
> 
> 
> How is that possible?   If defies economics, as well as my decade of life in Manhattan.    Perhaps if you're a giant chain you can volumetrically bring the costs down by buying a ******** of flour or mushrooms, etc..., but for the average mom & pop store I cant believe your example is financially possible.


Doesn't have to be a chain.  We dealt with 90% independent restaurants.  The volume difference between a busy Boston or Manhattan restaurant compared to those in the burbs was that great.  I'd sell product at a 15% profit margin in Boston that would get sold at 30-35% margin in the burbs.  The volume of the restaurants played into this as did the efficiency of doing business in the city.  I could start a delivery route at 5AM and my driver would be done at Noon completing 50 deliveries.  The guy in the burbs wouldn't start until 7 or 8 and be lucky to get 25 deliveries in by 5PM and there would be 25% of the value of the product on that truck compared to the city route.  

Extrapolate that out to ski country where volumes and efficiencies are even lower except for holiday weeks and it's not too difficult to see how even smaller price breaks are offered. 


Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2018)

skiur said:


> You can get gas cheaper in manhattan then outside of it? Come on man, that is just ridicules, *gas is currently around $2.75 a gallon for regular in the city*, go out to queens its about $2.59 and in Nassau county its $2.45.



And $2.33 in north Jersey (yesterday when I filled-up), which isnt even cheapest, my wife paid $2.22 at Costco.


----------



## benski (Dec 11, 2018)

I think what Deadheadskier is talking about does not translate into saving for the end consumer. I would guess all those saving go to the landlord and more.


----------



## Abominable (Dec 11, 2018)

Some things, like gas, you can't compare across state lines 'cause too many other variables (taxes).

"You can get gas cheaper in manhattan then outside of it? Come on man, that is just ridicules, gas is currently around $2.75 a gallon for regular in the city, go out to queens its about $2.59 and in Nassau county its $2.45."

2.77 is the cheapest near me according to Gas Buddy.  I live right in the middle of this dark patch of blood red.  But maybe when I said Manhattan I should have meant the city as a whole.

View attachment Gas Buddy.pdf


"Do you buy your own groceries? I spent a decade ferrying groceries into Manhattan from Jersey, and it wasnt because I enjoyed humping milk & salsa. Or perhaps Westchester is it's own extremely expensive microcosm and is thus a very bad comparative example.  Put another way, there are other places "outside of the city" where hedge fund managers dont live."

Wchester is definitely its own expensive microcosm, and I was probably wrong to equate westchester / fairfield with other places "outside the city."  I was just trying to agree with DHS's larger point that the sheer volume of the city in terms of business, suppliers, proximity of markets and shipping and all that can outweigh the impact of higher taxes and real estate, and that your average mom n' pop taco joint in NYC is probably paying less for tacos and ground beef than the Black Line Tavern.


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 11, 2018)

jimk said:


> That line gave me one of my best belly laughs in quite a while
> Good overall post with some valid stuff to think about.



Haha yes hopefully the outlet  is GFCI protected . 

To me it's just wrong , not only not buying from the cafe but your using the mountains electricity albeit a few cents worth but just doesn't seem right . 

At least this year is starting off well ... lower fuel prices and some help from Ullr


----------



## abc (Dec 12, 2018)

benski said:


> I think what Deadheadskier is talking about does not translate into saving for the end consumer. I would guess all those saving go to the landlord and more.


It does translate to end customer saving, due to competition. 

What you're missing is, with high volume they can make the same total with a smaller margin. 

Granted, the rent maybe higher. But some other cost maybe lower, again due to competition. So the total cost doesn't have to be as high as many imagined. 

Doesn't mean it's easy to operate in the city. Many restaurants close within a year or two. But those who figured out the cost and margin can make a steady stream at a relatively thin margin. That's the difference between operating in the city center vs in the 'burbs.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 12, 2018)

My hunch is that the "no outside food" allowed in the new Carinthia Lodge/on it's outside deck area will be put to the test tomorrow when the $12 ticket Founder's Day crowd shows up usually in large quantities.....


----------



## Hawk (Dec 12, 2018)

I have skied at Sugarbush and Sunday River most of my life.  Both have pretty large racing communities.  I have seen everything that has been described on this thread.  None of it bothers me at all.  These are people that invest large amounts of time on their kids passion.  Rich, Poor, Frugal or excessive,  they are hurting no one and in both the communities that I have skied, no one has bothered them.  Not the mountain, fellow skiers or the general public.  What I don't understand is that people take issue with these harmless people. Generally it only seems that it is the people on here. We are skiers and skiing is on the hill not in the lodge Right?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I have skied at Sugarbush and Sunday River most of my life.  Both have pretty large racing communities.  I have seen everything that has been described on this thread.  None of it bothers me at all.  These are people that invest large amounts of time on their kids passion.  Rich, Poor, Frugal or excessive,  they are hurting no one and in both the communities that I have skied, no one has bothered them.  Not the mountain, fellow skiers or the general public.  What I don't understand is that people take issue with these harmless people. Generally it only seems that it is the people on here. We are skiers and skiing is on the hill not in the lodge Right?



I have seen that as well in those places--Barker Mountain Lodge has a lot of room where folks can go and congregate out of the way.  At Sugarbush, it seemed that the Mount Ellen Lodge would just get overrun on a weekend and that space was more in demand.  

I think the issue becomes one of entitlement.  I've certainly seen a few bad apples in the racing crowd who are disrespectful and feel entitled.  At Burke Mountain they throw stuff everywhere and act like they own the place.  It rubs folks the wrong way.  We've had plenty of threads, posts, and comments about this phenomenon.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 12, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I have seen that as well in those places--Barker Mountain Lodge has a lot of room where folks can go and congregate out of the way.  At Sugarbush, it seemed that the Mount Ellen Lodge would just get overrun on a weekend and that space was more in demand.
> 
> I think the issue becomes one of entitlement.  I've certainly seen a few bad apples in the racing crowd who are disrespectful and feel entitled.  At Burke Mountain they throw stuff everywhere and act like they own the place.  It rubs folks the wrong way.  We've had plenty of threads, posts, and comments about this phenomenon.



I hear what you are saying trail Boss.  I guess that I have never heard or seen the "entitled" thing.  The people that I have seen are very respectful and kind.  It's funny but again, the whole entitled thing only comes up on here.  I don't thing they are entitled.  Is this a stereo type for Racers?


----------



## jm99 (Dec 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I hear what you are saying trail Boss.  I guess that I have never heard or seen the "entitled" thing.  The people that I have seen are very respectful and kind.  It's funny but again, the whole entitled thing only comes up on here.  I don't thing they are entitled.  Is this a stereo type for Racers?



Racers generally aren't that bad at most places, but there are a few mountains where they seem to feel like they own the place. Definitely one of the major reasons I stopped skiing Waterville. I wonder if that "Blue Boy" at Hunter honed his skills as a racer kid at WV. Never had any issues in the lodge there (just on the hill), though I definitely have noticed their strong presence in the Mt. Ellen lodge.


----------



## skiur (Dec 12, 2018)

I would venture to think that most people that feel its wrong to bring your own food into a base lodge are people that are wealthy and always have been.  The people that think it is ok to bring in food are the people that cant afford to buy the resorts overpriced food or can now but earlier in their life couldn't.


----------



## Bumpsis (Dec 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I hear what you are saying trail Boss.  I guess that I have never heard or seen the "entitled" thing.  The people that I have seen are very respectful and kind.  It's funny but again, the whole entitled thing only comes up on here.  I don't thing they are entitled.  Is this a stereo type for Racers?



I've seen plenty of the "entitled" thing at Sugarloaf, over and over. Tables taken over with stuff on top and underneath and actually, fairly bad attitudes on part of the racing "kids". But to some extend I blame Sugarloaf management for not doing their job. They could allocate portions of the big room just for the racing crowd. 
There are number of ski areas that do a really good job dealing with the issue of general public colonizing tables. One specific example, Sunapee has has free storage area in both of their lodges and signs that clearly instruct customers not to leave their crap on and under tables when not in use.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 12, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I have seen that as well in those places--Barker Mountain Lodge has a lot of room where folks can go and congregate out of the way.  At Sugarbush, it seemed that the Mount Ellen Lodge would just get overrun on a weekend and that space was more in demand.
> 
> I think the issue becomes one of entitlement.  I've certainly seen a few bad apples in the racing crowd who are disrespectful and feel entitled.  At Burke Mountain they throw stuff everywhere and act like they own the place.  It rubs folks the wrong way.  We've had plenty of threads, posts, and comments about this phenomenon.





Hawk said:


> I hear what you are saying trail Boss.  I guess that I have never heard or seen the "entitled" thing.  The people that I have seen are very respectful and kind.  It's funny but again, the whole entitled thing only comes up on here.  I don't thing they are entitled.  Is this a stereo type for Racers?





jm99 said:


> Racers generally aren't that bad at most places, but there are a few mountains where they seem to feel like they own the place. Definitely one of the major reasons I stopped skiing Waterville. I wonder if that "Blue Boy" at Hunter honed his skills as a racer kid at WV. Never had any issues in the lodge there (just on the hill), though I definitely have noticed their strong presence in the Mt. Ellen lodge.



From what I have seen, been a part of (both as a racer growing up, and now as a racer parent x 2) just like with many things, it's a small minority of the population that creates the problems for the entire group.

Most racer parents are nice, considerate, will give you table space if it's not full without a doubt, try not to occupy a huge space, etc, etc, etc.  IMHO, those tend to be the parents who grew up racing themselves.  There are a few though, that create the problem.  They are the crew that won't give up a seat, even if the seat isn't occupied and it will likely be a while before their kid(s) and/or teammates would be coming in for a break. They tend to "tag off" control of the table between other racer parents when they go out to see their kid(s) compete, they rarely, if ever, will ski themselves on a race day, and they tend to be the crew who will video or photo document most  every move in the lodge their kid(s) make from putting on their boots to heading out the door. They also tend to be parents of the younger age group racers (U10's, U12's and few U14's).  

My hunch is that these are the same parents who drive other parent's crazy at say youth soccer games, youth baseball/softball games, school plays/concerts, etc.  While my first hand experience of this as a parent has only been for the last 6 years now, and mainly from racer parents of athlete's who compete in the Southern VT Council (Mount Snow, Magic, Bromley, Stratton, Willard Mtn, NY, and for a few seasons, The Hermitage) I have also seen the same, ISOLATED parental behavior when my kids have competed in VT State Championship meets as well as a couple of Northeast Regional meets


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> I hear what you are saying trail Boss.  I guess that I have never heard or seen the "entitled" thing.  The people that I have seen are very respectful and kind.  It's funny but again, the whole entitled thing only comes up on here.  I don't thing they are entitled.  Is this a stereo type for Racers?



I prefer not to get into the whole debate again.  To sum up what has been said, a lot of folks at private elite racing schools need deep pockets to sustain that kind of activity.  With that comes the "new rich" crowd who feel entitled and act pretty rudely to others.  I see it out here and back east.  It happens.  Are all racers bad?  No.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2018)

Hawk said:


> * I guess that I have never heard or seen the "entitled" thing. *
> 
> *Is this a stereo type for Racers?*



No; it's a stereotype for bad parenting.   

As always, there's some truth to every stereotype.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 12, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I prefer not to get into the whole debate again.  To sum up what has been said, a lot of folks at private elite racing schools need deep pockets to sustain that kind of activity.  With that comes the "new rich" crowd who feel entitled and act pretty rudely to others.  I see it out here and back east.  It happens.  Are all racers bad?  No.



Honestly, it's not the "new rich" that tend to be creating the table hogging issues at races, it tends to be the parents with less financial means, that are sacrificing for the sake of their kids, that show up with the crockpots, tablecloths, etc and "take over" the table and not let others in the lodge use the open seats at the table. And in no way shape or form do I begrudge them and the efforts they're making to help instill the love of the sport on their kids. I think any kid that ski races or has parents that want to take them to a mountain is an awesome thing!!  (Just don't hog a table in a crowded lodge all day!)

The "new rich" if you want to label them that way, are way more likely to buy from the cafeteria or eat in a base/mid mountain lodge restaurant (they may be more likely to get upset if they can't be seated quickly in a table in restaurant, but that is often solved with a quick trip to the bar while waiting) , and either be out skiing or snowshoeing up to the finish area to watch their kids in my experience.

I guess, since it's the racer parent crowd that were talking about, parents who are used to being at a mountain, and kind of understand the crowd dynamics of a base lodge, it's more of a small mountain/big mountain thing that I have seen in my limited, mainly VT based racer parent experience.  Or let me put it this way, I've NEVER witnessed a Stratton or Hermitage Club racer parent bringing a crock pot into the lodge with them on a race day.... :wink:


----------



## Jully (Dec 12, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> No; it's a stereotype for bad parenting.
> 
> As always, there's some truth to every stereotype.



This. Entitled people (parents and kids) are everywhere. Not sure if its any higher here than with any other sport/activity.


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 12, 2018)

It's basically impossible to think the east coast junior racing world could continue without the parents spending time in the lodges, bringing food, snacks beverages, etc....and making the day as pleasant as possible for their kids and themselves.

Anyone who begrudges those tables with their tablecloths and crock pots just doesn't understand the time and money commitments involved in the activity.

And if the mountains only want clients who will buy $12 chicken finger meals, $2 apples, $4 gatorades, they should not host races. 

Money aside, from a timing POV you could't keep these kids fed and hydrated on lodge food alone on a busy weened day, with the lines out the door.  

So racing folks...thats a whole separate issue  No way in hell could they forgo packing in food IMO.


----------



## tumbler (Dec 13, 2018)

Jully said:


> This. Entitled people (parents and kids) are everywhere. Not sure if its any higher here than with any other sport/activity.



True, but skiing is unique where the regular public comes in contact with it.  Otherwise it is insulated to the soccer and lax fields.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2018)

I'd say hockey parents / kids top all.  I've worked at hotels who banned certain youth teams for trashing the place. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 13, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd say hockey parents / kids top all.  I've worked at hotels who banned certain youth teams for trashing the place.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



There was a hilarious exchange between some hockey parents and Steven Wright of Jay Peak years back.  On yelp, I think.  Basically, the parents left a bad review and Wrigth called them out for letting their kids turn the place upside down.  Very amusing.


----------



## Hawk (Dec 13, 2018)

Listen, I am en elitist and you are giving me a bad wrap lumping me in with these working class racing types.  Jeese.  ;-)

All kidding aside.  This whole thing is blown way out of proportion.  I ski a ton, have no kids, never raced and ski at 2 mountains that have large programs. I have no skin in the game but have a rational opinion based on my experiences.  I do not see any of this and never have.  It basically comes down to this.  You guys are either way over sensitive to the issue or have be slighted once or twice and now have an axe to grind or are total curmudgeons.  Frankly if I ever came into contact with people that act the way you described, I would just ignore them or I would spend less time in the lodge and go ski.  That is the way I see it.


----------



## jimk (Dec 13, 2018)

Good and scenic brown bagger spots:

Anyone ever eat a DIY meal on this deck?






Or here?





My son and I enjoying a brown bag lunch at one of my favorite spots to do that in America, elev 11,500:





Pretty sure I've eaten a PB&J sandwich here once or twice on the deck.  Inside this small, old lodge is table service only and not likely to work for brown bagging.





Another memorable spot to unpack a sandwich, this is at the summit of a Mecca of tree skiing in Eastern US:





Really nice public space at a Western PA ski area where they don't mind if you dine on your own food, this is a summit lodge with great views out the windows:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 13, 2018)

Hawk said:


> * I do not see any of this and never have.*



I'd say you're likely blessed to be fairly nonobservant.   

At the very least, you should have noticed the 8,378 pairs of skis littering the ground that one has to trudge over either because they cant be "bothered" to lean them up, or because budding Aksel Lund Svindal needs his bases 2.3 degrees colder to shave off that 0.01 second that will win him Olympic Gold at Magic Mountain.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Honestly, it's not the "new rich" that tend to be creating the table hogging issues at races, it tends to be the parents with less financial means, that are sacrificing for the sake of their kids, that show up with the crockpots, tablecloths, etc and "take over" the table and not let others in the lodge use the open seats at the table. And in no way shape or form do I begrudge them and the efforts they're making to help instill the love of the sport on their kids. I think any kid that ski races or has parents that want to take them to a mountain is an awesome thing!!  (Just don't hog a table in a crowded lodge all day!)
> 
> The "new rich" if you want to label them that way, are way more likely to buy from the cafeteria or eat in a base/mid mountain lodge restaurant (they may be more likely to get upset if they can't be seated quickly in a table in restaurant, but that is often solved with a quick trip to the bar while waiting) , and either be out skiing or snowshoeing up to the finish area to watch their kids in my experience.
> 
> I guess, since it's the racer parent crowd that were talking about, parents who are used to being at a mountain, and kind of understand the crowd dynamics of a base lodge, it's more of a small mountain/big mountain thing that I have seen in my limited, mainly VT based racer parent experience.  Or let me put it this way, I've NEVER witnessed a Stratton or Hermitage Club racer parent bringing a crock pot into the lodge with them on a race day.... :wink:



Class warfare in the racing community. Looking down upon the supposed lesser mountains. lol.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 13, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Class warfare in the racing community. Looking down upon the supposed lesser mountains. lol.



I dont view his post like that at all. 

 I think he's just saying those with money take the easy route & buy lodge food, those without money bring sandwiches and/or crock pots.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 13, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Class warfare in the racing community. Looking down upon the supposed lesser mountains. lol.





BenedictGomez said:


> I dont view his post like that at all.
> 
> I think he's just saying those with money take the easy route & buy lodge food, those without money bring sandwiches and/or crock pots.



BG got my point, and lets also be honest here, if you have a kid(s) in a ski racing program, chances are that you're doing far better financially than the majority of the households in the country, even if you try and do it frugally, by the time you add up the cost of equipment (even if you get it at swaps), the cost of the training program, race registration fees, travel expenses to/from both your home mountain and any away races, the length of the season (usually for most non ski academy programs it starts basically the 1st weekend of December and runs every weekend through mid/late March) it's NOT a cheap sport by any means.

Add in the fact that for the vast majority of kids, there won't be any college scholarship money (there are 12 NCAA Division 1 men's programs and 13 Division 1 women's programs across the country with a total combined total between those 25 programs of about 500 scholarship positions total, when you factor in the European and other foreign students who claim some of those scholarship positions, the chances of one's kid skiing themselves to a free 4 years of college is very small. 

It's far more often about passing the love of the sport onto your kids and the ways that parents go through it to make it happen when needed than anything else.

As for the big mountain/small mountain class warfare thing that ST eluded too, maybe among some parents there is, but from my own experiences in with the 03,04,05 and 06 birth year athletes that my kids race/have raced against, in a VERY competitive ski racing state of Vermont and also in a very strong council with the Stratton Mountain School athletes, and their often full nationwide and also international slew of athletes they have, it's just not there.

To be honest, especially in the case of my daughter, who's an 04 birth year racer, the 1 girl she's always raced against, who is most like to make the US Ski Team development squad in the next couple of years, is originally from Magic, before she followed her Dad who is a coach, Jim Sullivan, first to Mount Snow Academy and now for the last 2 years to Stratton Mountain School, so it's been the case of the local, small hill Vermont born and raised kid, most races beating everyone else, from kids of Hedge Fund guys to international students attending Stratton Mountain School, to kids of families who do well enough to give their kids the chance to race because they are bringing the crockpots to the mountain, we as parents all generally stop and pay attention, and often watch in awe of the small town native Vermonter when she kicks out of the starting gate and gets on course.  As a parent these days in the era of "everyone gets a trophy" youth sports, it's a great thing to have your kid, who may of say finished 37th in a race that day, feel good about their efforts and learn that ultimately for most, it's not about if you made it onto the podium, but did you put your best effort out on the hill that day


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2018)

drjeff said:


> BG got my point, and lets also be honest here, if you have a kid(s) in a ski racing program, chances are that you're doing far better financially than the majority of the households in the country, even if you try and do it frugally, by the time you add up the cost of equipment (even if you get it at swaps), the cost of the training program, race registration fees, travel expenses to/from both your home mountain and any away races, the length of the season (usually for most non ski academy programs it starts basically the 1st weekend of December and runs every weekend through mid/late March) it's NOT a cheap sport by any means.
> 
> Add in the fact that for the vast majority of kids, there won't be any college scholarship money (there are 12 NCAA Division 1 men's programs and 13 Division 1 women's programs across the country with a total combined total between those 25 programs of about 500 scholarship positions total, when you factor in the European and other foreign students who claim some of those scholarship positions, the chances of one's kid skiing themselves to a free 4 years of college is very small.
> 
> ...



I understand, I was joking with a little trolling that was able to hook the fish. [emoji476][emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## cdskier (Dec 15, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> At the very least, you should have noticed the 8,378 pairs of skis littering the ground that one has to trudge over either because they cant be "bothered" to lean them up, or because budding Aksel Lund Svindal needs his bases 2.3 degrees colder to shave off that 0.01 second that will win him Olympic Gold at Magic Mountain.



I'll give one of the GMVS coaches some kudos on this topic. Last week midweek at Sugarbush GMVS was doing some race training at Lincoln Peak in the morning. The place was empty first thing yet there were still a bunch of skis on the ground. A coach came out of the lodge and saw the skis and immediately turned around and started telling any kids if they had skis on the ground they needed to go pick them up and put them where they belong and that it wasn't respectful to just leave skis in the middle on the ground even when no one is there. And sometimes just a coach (or parent, etc) reminding kids of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate is all that is needed. The skis were all picked up within minutes.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'll give one of the GMVS coaches some kudos on this topic. Last week midweek at Sugarbush GMVS was doing some race training at Lincoln Peak in the morning. The place was empty first thing yet there were still a bunch of skis on the ground. A coach came out of the lodge and saw the skis and immediately turned around and started telling any kids if they had skis on the ground they needed to go pick them up and put them where they belong and that it wasn't respectful to just leave skis in the middle on the ground even when no one is there. And sometimes just a coach (or parent, etc) reminding kids of what is appropriate and what is not appropriate is all that is needed. The skis were all picked up within minutes.



That is great. I was at Cannon once and a bunch of racers were down in the brown bag area and they left a mess. The coach was still in there. I turn to my 3 kids and say loudly "If you ever leave a mess like that i will never bring you skiing again". The coach must have heard me as he walked out and a few minutes later the racers were all back down there cleaning up their mess.


----------

