# World Cup



## skiur (Nov 27, 2016)

Anybody watching it? NBC is has been streaming it too, insane crowd.....16000+ at k1!  Does HS still think its FAIL?


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## dlague (Nov 27, 2016)

No real interest!

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## 4aprice (Nov 27, 2016)

16,000 at the race yesterday.  I would say a win for Killington.  Any time you get that many at a resort its a win for the mountain.  HS and others my not like it but it hard to fault them for their decision.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## drjeff (Nov 27, 2016)

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## drjeff (Nov 27, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


It was crazy there yesterday!! I totally believe the 16k crowd estimate! All lots were jammed, cars parked well over 1/2 down both sides of East Mtn Rd past the Killington Grand and also UP East Mtn Rd from Skyeship Base!!

It was an electric environment, especially when a US racer was on course!!

Huge win for Killington, and East Coast skiing!! 

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## machski (Nov 27, 2016)

Been watching replays and live coverage as much as I can
  Great to see the crowds and the electricity of them!!  Huge win, definitely puts NE back on FIS's radar!!


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## cdskier (Nov 27, 2016)

Thought it was awesome to watch on TV a skiing World Cup event back on the east coast. Pretty cool too to be able to say "hey, I've skied that trail!"


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 27, 2016)

It was definitely interesting to see the event on tv to see a trail that I know so well through the eye of the camera.  I went today to see it live with one of my boys.  It was really cool to see it live and hear the roaring of the crowd!  What a great event.  Killington did a great job.  And, as a bonus, SS has a solid base for the season!


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## Cornhead (Nov 27, 2016)

+1, didn't watch much, but uber cool to see pros skiing a familiar trail, kudos to K for pulling it off.

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## benski (Nov 27, 2016)

How many people does Killington get on peek weekends. Sugarbush's record crowd is just over 10k.


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## drjeff (Nov 27, 2016)

benski said:


> How many people does Killington get on peek weekends. Sugarbush's record crowd is just over 10k.


Granted they weren't parking anyone in the Bear Mtn lots, atleast when I went on Saturday, and I will say that the amount of cars there, both in the jammed lots and how far out/down the roads cars were parked (and I never saw the Pico lot, but heard it was overflowed onto Route 4, and I can attest that Skyeship lot was overflow onto Route 4 AND atleast a 1/2 mile up BOTH sides of East Mtn Rd!) I don't remember ever seeing, even back in K's late 80's/early 90's million plus skier visit season busy holiday weekend days!! 

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## 4aprice (Nov 27, 2016)

Here's another question.  Was the access road hopping on Saturday night?  Lookout sounded like they were going to have a big party.  Killington can be a lot more then just skiing.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Jully (Nov 27, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Granted they weren't parking anyone in the Bear Mtn lots, atleast when I went on Saturday, and I will say that the amount of cars there, both in the jammed lots and how far out/down the roads cars were parked (and I never saw the Pico lot, but heard it was overflowed onto Route 4, and I can attest that Skyeship lot was overflow onto Route 4 AND atleast a 1/2 mile up BOTH sides of East Mtn Rd!) I don't remember ever seeing, even back in K's late 80's/early 90's million plus skier visit season busy holiday weekend days!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah, I know very little about K's previous record crowds, but with a million + visits in a season, that averages to over 5,500 a day and early season, late season, and midweek certainly don't average that. I'd guess over 14,000 on the low end.


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## machski (Nov 27, 2016)

Remember too in those million seasons, K had another base and portal at the Northeast Passage (Sunrise) on RT4.  Granted, that was a long/cold lift on certain days but another lot/lodge/lift to take off some crowd pressure.


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## dlague (Nov 27, 2016)

I watched the last half hour today.  They were saying the the course was getting soft and rutted.  You could see it when watching their skis.

Was cool to see a race on a trail that most of us have skied a lot.  Of course it is generally bumped out.

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## boston_e (Nov 27, 2016)

We went both days.  It was a fantastic event and an incredible vibe!  Major kudos to Killington management for pulling this event off and making it a huge success!  I would easily believe the 16K+ number.


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## boston_e (Nov 27, 2016)

4aprice said:


> Here's another question.  Was the access road hopping on Saturday night?  Lookout sounded like they were going to have a big party.  Killington can be a lot more then just skiing.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



I did not go out on Saturday night but I did ask at other local businesses (picking up sandwiches at the deli etc), and the general report was that it was quite a bit busier than a typical Thanksgiving weekend, so I would guess it was a win for the local establishments as well.


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## boston_e (Nov 27, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Granted they weren't parking anyone in the Bear Mtn lots, atleast when I went on Saturday, and I will say that the amount of cars there, both in the jammed lots and how far out/down the roads cars were parked (and I never saw the Pico lot, but heard it was overflowed onto Route 4, and I can attest that Skyeship lot was overflow onto Route 4 AND atleast a 1/2 mile up BOTH sides of East Mtn Rd!) I don't remember ever seeing, even back in K's late 80's/early 90's million plus skier visit season busy holiday weekend days!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



We took the shuttle from Pico, when we arrived there at about 8:30 AM on Saturday the lot was probably 80% full, so I would guess that it could have easily filled up all the way.

The Sunday crowd seemed to be less than on Saturday (although still very crowded)


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## WoodCore (Nov 27, 2016)




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## WoodCore (Nov 27, 2016)




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## 180 (Nov 27, 2016)

Ski shops reported slow business. It was a great weekend. Cant say enough.  Was on first chair both days, skied a lot and partied a lot and watched great racing


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## andrec10 (Nov 28, 2016)

We were there both days and it was Awesome. Also skied Friday. Gonna save the lift tickets for another weekend later in the season when the are fully open.


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## Breakout12 (Nov 28, 2016)

skiur said:


> Anybody watching it? NBC is has been streaming it too, insane crowd.....16000+ at k1!  Does HS still think its FAIL?



Yep, I turned it on.  I don't usually watch skiing, but I did because of the location.  I thought it was cool, and good for the east.


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

If there isn't a race on the east coast next year after 16,000 people went and hopefully substantially more watched on TV, I'm going to have a conniption.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

What I think would be great to see is a return to Whiteface with Downhill and Super G.  Obviously unlikely for November though

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## andrec10 (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> What I think would be great to see is a return to Whiteface with Downhill and Super G.  Obviously unlikely for November though
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app




Whitefaces trails would need a lot of upgrades for that to happen. Would be cool though!


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## jaybird (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> What I think would be great to see is a return to Whiteface with Downhill and Super G.  Obviously unlikely for November though
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Yeah .. Whiteface as a venue in this day and age is a non starter.
Just keep thinkin' there braindeadhead .. that's what you're good at. :dunce:

As to Killington shops being slow last weekend, few people on the access rd were there to visit ski shops.
The major shops rented out bench space for racer chasers. That limited capacity for the general public. 
Bootfitting .. footbeds and heaters were going gangbusters.

Both days at this competition were truly sensational.
Bodes well for more active consideration of NE sites.
Too bad Balsams has no pitch. Les is bummed. 

Vermont was the Winner last weekend.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

Next year's calendar is set so no repeat Superstar WC in 2017. I'd bet it'll be back for 2018 though.


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## joshua segal (Nov 28, 2016)

I was at Killington today and spoke to a number of locals:  The hotels and the restaurants had record weeks.  The consensus was that there were two minor glitches: On Saturday, there were not enough shuttle buses to handle the crowd - and both days: The Killington base area didn't have adequate rest room facilities and they didn't order enough porta-potties.  But all-in-all, a total success.


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## Smellytele (Nov 28, 2016)

Jully said:


> If there isn't a race on the east coast next year after 16,000 people went and hopefully substantially more watched on TV, I'm going to have a conniption.



Have you had your conniption yet?


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Next year's calendar is set so no repeat Superstar WC in 2017. I'd bet it'll be back for 2018 though.



That's wicked annoying. Hopeful for 2018! Is it too much to ask for a second venue already too? Whiteface, while super super cool would definitely be a stretch the near term. I think we're stuck with GS and SL for the being. I'm fine with that though!!


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## Jully (Nov 28, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Have you had your conniption yet?



Basically!!


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

jaybird said:


> Yeah .. Whiteface as a venue in this day and age is a non starter.
> Just keep thinkin' there braindeadhead .. that's what you're good at. :dunce:
> 
> :



Well, FIS made an exception to have races on shortened courses at Killington, so I doubt it's a stretch to consider what a former Olympic venue could provide.

Killington did a fantastic job and I'd be happy to see them rewarded with a repeat. It would be even better if FIS selected somewhere like Stowe that can host a proper GS course. And better than that would be to bring back the speed events to the East.  Whiteface is the only option for that.



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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Maybe, but I thought I've read they fall a little short on the vertical requirements for a modern downhill course. I believe Le Massif has the facilities to host one, but it's so far away it wouldn't bring the crowds

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## boston_e (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe, but I thought I've read they fall a little short on the vertical requirements for a modern downhill course. I believe Le Massif has the facilities to host one, but it's so far away it wouldn't bring the crowds
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



I was trying to edit my post when you quoted it!  Oops!  For those who didn't see, I had asked if Sugarloaf could host a downhill event.

As far as the G.S… I have not been to Stowe in quite a few years, but I'm trying to picture what trail they would have the GS on that would offer something that Superstar did not offer?

Edit: Sugarloaf too, might struggle with the crowds in comparison.  From a lodging capacity alone, they might have a tough time as compared to something in Vermont like Killingotn.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Hayride is Stowe's GS trail and it is a vastly better trail than SS for racing.  15-1600 of consistent vertical.  Superstar is a fantastic venue for an event due to the room at the base for spectators, but the trail itself leaves a lot to be desired for racing due to how flat it is in the middle section.  

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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

I'd also suggest that High line would be a better venue for SL, but I understand that having two different trail venues wouldn't be as efficient and cost effective for setting up spectator viewing.

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## joshua segal (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Hayride is Stowe's GS trail and it is a vastly better trail than SS for racing.  15-1600 of consistent vertical.  Superstar is a fantastic venue for an event due to the room at the base for spectators, but the trail itself leaves a lot to be desired for racing due to how flat it is in the middle section.
> 
> ...


If this event must be in November, you've got to start with an area committed to the early season.  For that, Stowe ain't the place.  The old timers remember that ski areas in a pre-snowmaking world opened Christmas week with very marginal conditions and closed by mid-March.  Killington (IMO) single-handedly pushed the start of the high-season to Thanksgiving and in a world of snowmaking (unless you have a horrendous year like last season) everyone has great snow at Christmas.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> If this event must be in November, you've got to start with an area committed to the early season.  For that, Stowe ain't the place.  The old timers remember that ski areas in a pre-snowmaking world opened Christmas week with very marginal conditions and closed by mid-March.  Killington (IMO) single-handedly pushed the start of the high-season to Thanksgiving and in a world of snowmaking (unless you have a horrendous year like last season) everyone has great snow at Christmas.


Joshua, 

My initial "wish" for future ski racing in the East was speed events at WF. So, that implies I'm not really thinking about November.  Likewise, my thoughts on Stowe would be for a later in the season race. Yes, if the option for hosting a race is only early season, given current infrastructure and business models, Killington makes the most (only really) sense.  

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## slatham (Nov 28, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> If this event must be in November, you've got to start with an area committed to the early season.  For that, Stowe ain't the place.  The old timers remember that ski areas in a pre-snowmaking world opened Christmas week with very marginal conditions and closed by mid-March.  Killington (IMO) single-handedly pushed the start of the high-season to Thanksgiving and in a world of snowmaking (unless you have a horrendous year like last season) everyone has great snow at Christmas.



Not sure I agree. Stowe has made significant investments in snowmaking over the years. Today they report 18 trails and 5.5 miles with multiple TBT 2,000 vertical runs. I think with the added firepower that was provided to K that Stowe could pull it off. 

Separately, as someone mentioned Sugarloaf, I just read that Narrow Guage is the only Eastern trail that is FIS certified for all 4 events. Go figure.....


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## drjeff (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Next year's calendar is set so no repeat Superstar WC in 2017. I'd bet it'll be back for 2018 though.


Not entirely so. 

There is a preliminary schedule for next year's WC races.  The schedule isn't finalized until after the May '17 F.I.S. meeting. Remember that Killington and Squaw Valley didn't get their race dates made official until May of this year.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the F.I.S. rethinks their preliminary schedule for next season to see if they can get another East Coast date as from what it seems, the F.I.S., Killington, the US Ski and Snowboard Association, the Vermont Alpine Racing Association, and the racers themselves were very happy with the event at Killington.

Next season, being a season with the Winter Olympics in it, could complicate the scheduling a bit as the Olympic break is typically a week or 2 earlier than a World Championship break (like happens this year) and that take a bit of a schedule shake up if they want to make it happen.

Fingers crossed

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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

slatham said:


> Not sure I agree. Stowe has made significant investments in snowmaking over the years. Today they report 18 trails and 5.5 miles with multiple TBT 2,000 vertical runs. I think with the added firepower that was provided to K that Stowe could pull it off.



How does the water flow capacity at Stowe compare to K? Also, did K do any additional pipe work to decrease the spacing between guns to allow them to run more guns on Superstar? If so, would Stowe be willing to do that as well?

Also, just to point out, K was able to open Superstar PLUS terrain for others. Right now Stowe has I'll say 1.5ish T2B routes open. Hayride (which was mentioned a bit earlier in this thread as the Stowe GS trail that could work) is wider and steeper than the trails open right now, so would require more snow to cover. Plus you have to cover them to FIS standards. I'm not saying they can't do it as I know little about the capacity of their system, I'm just saying I have a strong feeling even with the recent upgrades that their system is still behind K's system by a decent margin and simply bringing in rental compressors isn't necessarily enough.

That said I would love to see another race in the east no matter what resort it is at. If it was at Stowe I'd be just as happy as if it was at K again. I think the east deserves a race every year after seeing how well the event went at K.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, FIS made an exception to have races on shortened courses at Killington, so I doubt it's a stretch to consider what a former Olympic venue could provide. AlpineZone mobile app



Source? Both the GS and SL courses fit the rules (GS = 348, req. 250-400m / SL = 190m, req. 140-200m).  When the announcers were talking about a "short course" they were referring to the horizontal or hypotenuse length.  The Superstar SL gradient was steeper than Levi and the Superstar GS gradient was steeper than Sölden.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> but the trail itself leaves a lot to be desired for racing due to how flat it is in the middle section.



30% is flat?  Have you seen the Aspen GS course?  Have you seen the top or bottom of the Sölden course?


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

slatham said:


> I think with the added firepower that was provided to K that Stowe could pull it off.



Stowe couldn't. They'd need to make a lot of snow to get to Hayride and to get back to a lift. Or they'd make snow on Main St which is where all racing is done these days. Neither have hydrants every 30 feet like Superstar. And Main St faces south.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> How does the water flow capacity at Stowe compare to K? Also, did K do any additional pipe work to decrease the spacing between guns to allow them to run more guns on Superstar? If so, would Stowe be willing to do that as well?



Stowe cannot pump 12000 gpm like Killington can. Killington did not do any pipe improvements ahead of this other than the 4 electrical outlets installed (was that this summer or the previous one?) at the bottom.  They had some hughe (3, 4"?) hoses from the north (what trail were they tied to?) with portable hydrants to split them once they put the boatloads of K3000s at the bottom.  I do know it was reported that at one point Killington was putting 3800 gpm on Superstar *alone* (plus whatever on Skyelark and elsewhere on the mountain).


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Stowe cannot pump 12000 gpm like Killington can. Killington did not do any pipe improvements ahead of this other than the 4 electrical outlets installed (was that this summer or the previous one?) at the bottom.  They had some hughe (3, 4"?) hoses from the north (what trail were they tied to?) with portable hydrants to split them once they put the boatloads of K3000s at the bottom.  I do know it was reported that at one point Killington was putting 3800 gpm on Superstar *alone* (plus whatever on Skyelark and elsewhere on the mountain).



Good info. In your previous post you mentioned the 30 foot hydrant spacing on Superstar which is what I was alluding to with pipe work. They already had that though on SS I take it, but it is still none-the-less something Stowe doesn't have at the moment on their trails as you also pointed out.

I'm actually a bit surprised at the 3800gpm number. I would have thought much higher with the number of guns they had running.


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## drjeff (Nov 28, 2016)

Stowe - no way they could handle a crowd the size of which turned out at K this past weekend!

K had the KBL, Vale, Ramshead, Snowshed, Pico and Skyeship lots packed, with with probably close to 2 miles of extra, both sides of the road cars parked along them as well. 

Stowe just doesn't have the space to do that, and long distance, off site shuttle to/from lots likely won't help draw the likely desired BIG crowd that the F.I.S. saw and would want again.

You can argue the merits of Hayride vs Superstar all you want, but that's not the whole story as the space to handle a BIG crowd is as important part of the equation

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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

Sölden's Rettenbach GS vs. Killington's Superstar GS:


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Source? Both the GS and SL courses fit the rules (GS = 348, req. 250-400m / SL = 190m, req. 140-200m).  When the announcers were talking about a "short course" they were referring to the horizontal or hypotenuse length.  The Superstar SL gradient was steeper than Levi and the Superstar GS gradient was steeper than Sölden.



My mistake then.  I was going exactly off what the announcers were saying. 



doublediamond said:


> 30% is flat?  Have you seen the Aspen GS course?  Have you seen the top or bottom of the Sölden course?



The whole trail might be 30%. The Headwall is quite steep, "Preston's pitch" is reasonably steep.  Middle Superstar is very flat and that's the longest portion of the course.  Hayride doesn't have a big flat section like that.  Neither does Narrow Gauge or Competition Hill at Sugarloaf.  Baron's at Cannon doesn't either now that it's been brought back to life.  Maybe the other trails you mention do.  I was talking about alternative East Coast options, so those are kind of irrelevant to the conversation.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Stowe - no way they could handle a crowd the size of which turned out at K this past weekend!
> 
> K had the KBL, Vale, Ramshead, Snowshed, Pico and Skyeship lots packed, with with probably close to 2 miles of extra, both sides of the road cars parked along them as well.
> 
> ...



No argument from me there.  In terms of facilities to handle a large crowd, K is most definitely the best option.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 28, 2016)

At 3800 gpm, they were turning an olympic swimming pool into snow in less than 3 hours. That is impressive.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Good info. In your previous post you mentioned the 30 foot hydrant spacing on Superstar which is what I was alluding to with pipe work. They already had that though on SS I take it, but it is still none-the-less something Stowe doesn't have at the moment on their trails as you also pointed out.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprised at the 3800gpm number. I would have thought much higher with the number of guns they had running.



Yes, all that infrastructure is from Killington's 25+ years of 30-foot Superstar glaciers which made it the perfect location to host a [relatively] last minute schedule change like this was.  

It was reported they had 120 K3000 snowguns on Superstar. 3800 gpm is 31.6 gallons per gun, which seems about right.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> My mistake then.  I was going exactly off what the announcers were saying.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole trail might be 30%. The Headwall is quite steep, "Preston's pitch" is reasonably steep.  Middle Superstar is very flat and that's the longest portion of the course.  Hayride doesn't have a big flat section like that.  Neither does Narrow Gauge or Competition Hill at Sugarloaf.  Baron's at Cannon doesn't either now that it's been brought back to life.  Maybe the other trails you mention do.  I was talking about alternative East Coast options, so those are kind of irrelevant to the conversation.



Per USGS DEM, Middle Superstar is 30% over the flattest 100 m horizontally and 32.4% over 750 m horizontally. I get 51% on Preston's Pitch over the steepest 100 m horizontally. Preston's Pitch was reported as 49% on some local Killington TV station linked somewhere.  

Levi tops at 52% and both the men and women were struggling immensely with that pitch which is much shorter than Preston's Pitch. Many women were having a tough time with Preston's in the SL event too. Though some of that might have been due to a trickier gate arrangement.  In Levi the gates were far apart on that pitch because it was short. Preston's was flatter but very sustained.  The number of turning gates in a  slalom is 30-35% of the vertical drop ± 3. The first run was 54 turning gates... that's the bare minimum according to the rules (0.3 x 190 - 3 = 54). The 2nd run had 55 turning gates. Both had one additional non-turning gate.

348 m drop over 894 m horizontally is 39.0% average gradient.

...

Aren't you comparing Superstar to existing ladies' WC event sites? That it's too flat and too short?  I'm comparing directly to two existing WC GS sites. Sölden with flatter sections and Aspen with a very flat and very narrow middle section which is a work road.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

No, I was simply comparing Superstar to other racing trails in the East.  Maybe I'm wrong.  I've skied Superstar hundreds of times and it always struck me as very flat in the middle for a very long length. Maybe it's width makes the trail seem flatter than what it really is.  I've never gotten that feeling on some of the others like Hayride, Narrow Gauge or Barron's.


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## Highway Star (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> My mistake then.  I was going exactly off what the announcers were saying.



I heard a load of BS in person from someone NBC connected about about Superstar barely being sufficient, and not sufficient at all for men's technical events, based on the number of gates.  Which is utter BS.  Superstar can most certainly host men's worldcup GS.

http://www.fis-ski.com/mm/Document/...kiing/02/03/07/icr_16.07.13.clean_Neutral.pdf

In fact, from the top of Skye peak to the bottom at route 4, is sufficient to host WC men's DH, per the 750m min elevation in exceptional cases. (page 80) 

I also heard a secondhand rumor that Killington is (or was) being considered for a men's technical event much sooner than anyone could possibly expect, where they would step in to host a race that is in danger of (or was) being cancelled elsewhere.  Something similar just happened with Beaver Creek canceling and Val d`Isère taking the races.

http://www.mtexpress.com/sports/fiv...cle_b141e2ae-b0d3-11e6-8d4d-5f6fd8806f1d.html


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## WWF-VT (Nov 28, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> In fact, from the top of Skye peak to the bottom at route 4, is sufficient to host WC men's DH, per the 750m min elevation in exceptional cases. (page 80)



Only if they are combining an Alpine Downhill and a Nordic Cross Country ski race


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## Highway Star (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Yes, all that infrastructure is from Killington's 25+ years of 30-foot Superstar glaciers which made it the perfect location to host a [relatively] last minute schedule change like this was.
> 
> It was reported they had 120 K3000 snowguns on Superstar. 3800 gpm is 31.6 gallons per gun, which seems about right.



From what I hear, this might not be the last "last minute" schedule change race that Killington picks up.  The wide trail layout, pitch changes, length, with the dedicated lift, deep icy snowpack, and a road that extends directly up to the venue.  It's pretty much the perfect technical event venue.  

I've strongly recommended that they hold pro park events on superstar, I have no idea why they don't.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> In fact, from the top of Skye peak to the bottom at route 4, is sufficient to host WC men's DH, per the 750m min elevation in exceptional cases. (page 80)



OK - tell us the route via which trails that would make for a good course.  It might work in terms of overall pitch, but I'd think the middle section where it's so flat on Great Eastern would be a non-starter for a DH course.


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## Highway Star (Nov 28, 2016)

WWF-VT said:


> Only if they are combining an Alpine Downhill and a Nordic Cross Country ski race



Nope.  The course would be 2.5 miles long and 760m, which is acceptable.  The middle would offer a challenging gliding section, with a steep start and finish.


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## Highway Star (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> OK - tell us the route via which trails that would make for a good course.  It might work in terms of overall pitch, but I'd think the middle section where it's so flat on Great Eastern would be a non-starter for a DH course.



They would need to widen certain sections and cut a few others.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> They would need to widen certain sections and cut a few others.
> 
> 
> View attachment 21110



Much respect for doing the research.  Have you contacted Mike about this plan?


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

Oh, Ok.

N.B. these numbers presented here are from a quick glance through Google Earth.  So these numbers aren't gospel. I do not know the accuracy of the elevation data in both the horizontal location plotted on coordinates or the accuracy of the elevation data in the z-direction.  I also do not know the accuracy of the coordinate data of the aerial imagery.  I can get more precise USGS data and open up ArcGIS if you wish.

At Hayride, the first ~1200m averages ~36% and it appears to never drop below ~30% or get above ~40% on any ~100m section.  It appears as a pretty consistent slope. I've never been down Hayride. For some reason I've preferred Centerline and like a creature of habit, I've always done Centerline when I've had a choice there.  But I imagine that it's narrower and curvier makes it seem steeper.  Currently all Hayride homologations have expired so I can't tell where they started/stopped.

With a quick glance at Barron's, the first ~100m is ~45%, and the bottom ~750m averages 19.9% and an average of 27.5% for the SG/GS homologation.  Barron's is completely out of contention for SL due to the flat bottom and it barely qualifies for SG and WC events are usually at the upper end of the vertical drop requirements.  There are only two WC stop that I can think of off the top of my head that has multiple courses prepared (Kitzbühel and Wengen have unique DH and a unique SL courses) and only one location that has 2 courses used in 2 consecutive weeks (Val d'Isere has unique men's and women's courses; but from the sounds of it, the women's course is being used this year for the men).


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> OK - tell us the route via which trails that would make for a good course.  It might work in terms of overall pitch, but I'd think the middle section where it's so flat on Great Eastern would be a non-starter for a DH course.



Check out the middle half or so of Kitzbühel.

I believe the proposed map here would be the longest DH length (horizontal) on the Men's calendar if it happened. That's* A LOT *of snow needed.


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## Highway Star (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Check out the middle half or so of Kitzbühel.
> 
> I believe the proposed map here would be the longest DH length (horizontal) on the Men's calendar if it happened. That's* A LOT *of snow needed.



It would be shorter than the Lauberhorn race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauberhorn_ski_races

Nothing wrong with a course that has an extended gliding section in the middle.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Oh, Ok.
> 
> N.B. these numbers presented here are from a quick glance through Google Earth.  So these numbers aren't gospel. I do not know the accuracy of the elevation data in both the horizontal location plotted on coordinates or the accuracy of the elevation data in the z-direction.  I also do not know the accuracy of the coordinate data of the aerial imagery.  I can get more precise USGS data and open up ArcGIS if you wish.
> 
> ...





Yes Baron's doesn't work for SL.  That's why the Taft training slope was rebuilt for this season.  Agree you'd be unlikely to ever see two separate venues at the same stop in the East and it's very rare almost anywhere.   I mentioned that when I suggested Highline would probably be a better trail for SL than Superstar.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

Ok, Wengen is a tenth of a mile longer.

It's still not an acceptable vertical.  The 750 m rule has never been granted due to mountain geography. Ever.  Look at the controversy surrounding the '98 Nagano Games.  The organizing committee and locals wanted the DH truncated because above-treeline is considered holy land in Shintoism. But FIS refused to budge.


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## doublediamond (Nov 28, 2016)

Why is Highline better? The bottom is flatter than Preston's Pitch.  And above the knoll is flatter than Superstar. You'd have to start the SL above the knoll anyways, so it's not like you can have the whole race visible.  With Superstar, you could see just shy of 2/3rds of the SL from the bottom.  The first timing line was just before the breakover.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2016)

DD

I could be off, but based upon what I saw on TV and know of Superstar, this seems to be what the approximate length of the course was.  I would think a similar comparable length course on Highline would be this length, which would be a bit more consistent in pitch and visible to the spectators top to bottom.  It's a lot closer in length looking at a map than what I have in my memory of skiing there.


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## Highway Star (Nov 29, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Ok, Wengen is a tenth of a mile longer.
> 
> It's still not an acceptable vertical.  The 750 m rule has never been granted due to mountain geography. Ever.  Look at the controversy surrounding the '98 Nagano Games.  The organizing committee and locals wanted the DH truncated because above-treeline is considered holy land in Shintoism. But FIS refused to budge.



Lots of people mimicing the NBC-tier reporting I see.  (pull out of ARSE)

The Birds of Prey course, pretty much the USA's flagship DH course, is only 753m. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birds_of_Prey_(ski_course)

Yes, a Killington DH wouldn't be the nastiest steepest tech course, but it would certainly be challenging enough for WC and meet the requirements.


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> would certainly be challenging enough for WC



Just going to leave this here.


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## jaybird (Nov 29, 2016)

Qualified terrain aside .. how do you propose the major resorts previously mentioned can cater to crowds the size K got last weekend?
Most have limited or no large-scale accommodation options and would be hard pressed to move people effectively.

A mid-winter Eastern DH would cripple whatever area was awarded. Net and fence setup for Whiteface Olympics was a massive effort.
Today's standards are substantially tougher.

Chinese Downhill would be the only realistic option around these parts.


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2016)

jaybird said:


> Qualified terrain aside .. how do you propose the major resorts previously mentioned can cater to crowds the size K got last weekend?
> Most have limited or no large-scale accommodation options and would be hard pressed to move people effectively.
> 
> A mid-winter Eastern DH would cripple whatever area was awarded. Net and fence setup for Whiteface Olympics was a massive effort.
> ...



No where in NH can handle those crowds for sure. In Maine, Sugarloaf cannot handle those crowds, but it would not draw a crowd that size. SL hosted the U.S. Alpine Championships in 2015 and is hosting it again this year and they do a fine job with that. If the goal is crowds though, then anywhere in Maine is a non-starter.

In VT, anywhere north of K would also not draw the same crowds. For what Stowe would draw, I think they would be okay. Stratton  is the only other option in VT that could possibly pull it off. Not a 16,000 crowd, but a few thousand would be doable if they bought/rented a crap ton of shuttle buses.


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## crank (Nov 29, 2016)

Jully said:


> No where in NH can handle those crowds for sure. In Maine, Sugarloaf cannot handle those crowds, but it would not draw a crowd that size. SL hosted the U.S. Alpine Championships in 2015 and is hosting it again this year and they do a fine job with that. If the goal is crowds though, then anywhere in Maine is a non-starter.
> 
> In VT, anywhere north of K would also not draw the same crowds. For what Stowe would draw, I think they would be okay. Stratton  is the only other option in VT that could possibly pull it off. Not a 16,000 crowd, but a few thousand would be doable if they bought/rented a crap ton of shuttle buses.



Went to Stratton one day when they were having the U.S. Open Snowboard Competition.  We had to park in Jamaica and they bussed us in.  Not sure how big the crowd was, but they did a good job getting us in and out.  The Competition and crowd was based at the Sunbowl.  The rest of the mountain was practically deserted.  Only reason we went was my buddy and I both had free passes to burn and it was March so not a lot os season left.


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## slatham (Nov 29, 2016)

After reading all the above its not really a surprise they went with Killington. From terrain, lifts, snowmaking, viewing, accommodations, infrastructure and proximity there really is no other choice. While other mountains could hold such an event, you would be compromising in some way on these criteria. And the proof is in the pudding - it was an awesome event with an incredible crowd and minimal issues. 

A couple cautionary comments on version 2.0 - I am sure some people went to the event this year because it was viewed as a "once in a lifetime" occasion. Would the drop off of those attendees be offset by the people who missed it and are kicking themselves?

Would the crowd be significantly smaller if it were not on a holiday weekend (and with limited skiing available)?


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2016)

slatham said:


> After reading all the above its not really a surprise they went with Killington. From terrain, lifts, snowmaking, viewing, accommodations, infrastructure and proximity there really is no other choice. While other mountains could hold such an event, you would be compromising in some way on these criteria. And the proof is in the pudding - it was an awesome event with an incredible crowd and minimal issues.
> 
> A couple cautionary comments on version 2.0 - I am sure some people went to the event this year because it was viewed as a "once in a lifetime" occasion. Would the drop off of those attendees be offset by the people who missed it and are kicking themselves?
> 
> Would the crowd be significantly smaller if it were not on a holiday weekend (and with limited skiing available)?



The crowd would almost certainly be smaller. I don't think anyone thinks that every year K holds a world cup event they will draw a record breaking crowd... that's why its called a record. Also the holiday weekend certainly helped. It'll be a huge crowd every time, but not 16,000 haha.


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## drjeff (Nov 29, 2016)

Additionally,  I think that if the chance to offer a mid/late season race was extended to K that it wouldn't be as widely well received and would present far more logistical nightmares with skier/rider traffic around the resort during the days leading up to the races, the race days themselves, and then a few days after the races to break down all of the fencing, bleachers, TV broadcast equipment, etc.

As anyone who was there over the weekend plainly saw, there was no way anyone could ski/ride around KBL from the K-1 loading area to the Superstar loading area.  Essentially the majority of the Superstar pod would need to be closed down for a few days during a mid season race for course prep and racers training on Skyelark and/or Bittersweet as well.  You couldn't ski down from the top of Snowshed to KBL either.

Early season, logistically, works so much better for K.  And I'm guessing that in reality, ski wise the only thing that they wish that they had going in addition for the general public was to have the Ramshead lift spinning, a few more trails off of Snowdon and maybe the Canyon Quad as well.


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## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2016)

Surprised that Superstar still isn't open but I guess they need to break all the stuff down so it should be this weekend.


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## JimG. (Nov 29, 2016)

Was told it would take 3-4 days to till SS into retail shape.


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## andrec10 (Nov 29, 2016)

JimG. said:


> Was told it would take 3-4 days to till SS into retail shape.




It is solid ice right now! Most people would need a diaper to ski it in its current shape.


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## slatham (Nov 29, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Surprised that Superstar still isn't open but I guess they need to break all the stuff down so it should be this weekend.



Besides removing all the structures at the base, they have to make or push snow to connect it to the open terrain on Snowdon. Otherwise its a muddy walk over.

Also, recall seeing in numerous places the comment that they have significant work to do to make the snow skiable for the average recreational skier. Not sure if this just means a ton of grooming or whether they have to make "recreational" snow on top of the World Cup boiler plate?

And given the weather this week, they are probably not in hurry, though I would think they want SS open this weekend.


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## moguler6 (Nov 29, 2016)

Great event and a ton of fun to watch.  Enjoyed watching this way more than I thought I would and more than all the spinning events I've attended over the years; X-games/gravity games/dew tour etc.  Hopefully they come back.  Maybe they could consider holding the speed events out west and technical events in the east going forward.  

It would also be nice if the US Freestyle Team pays attention to this and rethinks they're World Cup events.  I hate how it's Lake Placid and Deer Valley every single year.  No one attends the Lake Placid WC and it's in a terrible location.  If you want spectators it MUST be at a base area, not half way up a mountain!  Canada moves their Freestyle World Cup events around every year.


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## Smellytele (Nov 29, 2016)

slatham said:


> Also, recall seeing in numerous places the comment that they have significant work to do to make the snow skiable for the average recreational skier. Not sure if this just means a ton of grooming or whether they have to make "recreational" snow on top of the World Cup boiler plate?



From what I saw it didn't look like the normal boiler plate. Also heard some skier say how soft it was.


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## Savemeasammy (Nov 29, 2016)

moguler6 said:


> It would also be nice if the US Freestyle Team pays attention to this and rethinks their World Cup events.




I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment.   I've never been a big fan of racing gates, but it was actually pretty exciting to see in person.  I'd imagine that seeing the pros in a mogul event would be just as fun.  They'd never touch the attendance of the WC, but I'd guess you'd get better numbers than Whiteface.  



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## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2016)

Savemeasammy said:


> I'd imagine that seeing the pros in a mogul event would be just as fun.  They'd never touch the attendance of the WC, but I'd guess you'd get better numbers than Whiteface.



I've been to the aerials at Whiteface three times, and the crowds have always been pretty good, even with extreme below 0 cold.  Granted aerials & moguls wont draw like downhill, slalom, GS, etc...   I dont know why they "lost" the moguls and aerials last year, whether it was an FIS decision or a Whiteface decision, but at least to my mind it seemed to get good local support.


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've been to the aerials at Whiteface three times, and the crowds have always been pretty good, even with extreme below 0 cold.  Granted aerials & moguls wont draw like downhill, slalom, GS, etc...   I dont know why they "lost" the moguls and aerials last year, whether it was an FIS decision or a Whiteface decision, but at least to my mind it seemed to get good local support.



Agreed, I'd actually prefer to see aerials and moguls if I were to go to a free style event. I might be odd though.


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## doublediamond (Nov 29, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> From what I saw it didn't look like the normal boiler plate. Also heard some skier say how soft it was.



Soft to a racer is not soft to us. Yes there was snow spray, but these skiers put a tremendous force when turning.  Course workers were falling and sliding. One of the slalom skiers slid like half way down.


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## doublediamond (Nov 29, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> Lots of people mimicing the NBC-tier reporting I see.  (pull out of ARSE)
> 
> The Birds of Prey course, pretty much the USA's flagship DH course, is only 753m.
> 
> ...



I did not realize BoP was only 753.  I'm going on a limb here but I have a feeling it is only on the calendar because it was built for the World Championships and immediately became a popular venue for the racers (public knowledge ... they love the challenge of the course).  

Here are all the current men's DH courses:

Wengen - 1,028
S. Caterina Valfurva - 945
Garmish - 920
Val D'Isère (ex Ladies) - 895*
Lake Louise - 863
Kitzbühel - 860
Val Gardena - 839
Kvitfjell - 838
Aspen - 762**
Beaver Creek - 753


*I do not know what the old Men's course (Face) was. Its homologation has expired. It is my understanding a lot of it was considered "too steep" for SG/GS races and the GS skiers would routinely struggle down it.

**Note that Aspen is only here on this list because it has the Finals. It is not a normal stop. Excluding it, all other races are 85m taller than BoP.

The proposed Skyeship DH would not be in the same league as BoP difficulty. I highly doubt it'd be acceptable in anyone's mind.


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## doublediamond (Nov 29, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> DD
> 
> I could be off, but based upon what I saw on TV and know of Superstar, this seems to be what the approximate length of the course was.  I would think a similar comparable length course on Highline would be this length, which would be a bit more consistent in pitch and visible to the spectators top to bottom.  It's a lot closer in length looking at a map than what I have in my memory of skiing there.
> 
> View attachment 21111



First off, you need about 60m of stopping room past the timing line for a technical event (and much more for a speed event). Then you need another 5-10m for the required press pen.  If the fence between the audience and press pen is put at the dirt road, the timing line would have to be at an elevation of at least 785m/2575'. Now we go up 190m in elevation we're at 975m/3198' or higher.  That's the pumphouse:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByLmvGMUYJXXanFFVmF4bjRwZUE/view

That isn't even considering the room required for grandstands (might be able to squeeze them in on the sides) and VIP.  

The only benefit is you can ski from KBL to Snowshed direct.  But you could essentially do that yesterday (unfortunately snowmaking wasn't complete yet on Sunday) via Great Northern, Ramshead lodge, and the tunnel.  In any other fall, that snowmaking (and Caper and possibly Snowshed itself) would have been completed for the race.

Finally, both above the knoll and below the knoll of Highline is flatter than Superstar.  You *might* be able to see a few % more of the race, but I doubt it.  If you want GS, you'd completely truncate the north Ridge from its only intermediate route down.  That would be a disaster.

Just because early Killington maps had it as "Highline Race Slope" and the kids race/train there, does not mean it's the best part of the mountain for a race.


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 29, 2016)

Lets face it, short of incorporating the hourglass on the summit of Mt Mansfield, the mountains in Vermont just don't have the topography to make a good World Cup Downhill course (although you can get a 800-820m drop using the summit of Mansfield). 

I think the only way you could really pull this off in the East is to have a dedicated course. The course would have to be in the Whites or the Adirondacks. Although, for the latter, most mountainsides that would qualify are extremely isolated. 

In the White Mtns I think this one would work...







Off of North Kinsman. Good Vert, decently steep except for a short flat in the middle. Easy access from I-93.


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## skiur (Nov 29, 2016)

andrec10 said:


> It is solid ice right now! Most people would need a diaper to ski it in its current shape.



How is it solid ice when it is 45 degrees and raining out right now?  Let people on it while it is soft and it will bump up, problem solved.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2016)

Wouldn't Whiteface work from the summit?


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Lets face it, short of incorporating the hourglass on the summit of Mt Mansfield, the mountains in Vermont just don't have the topography to make a good World Cup Downhill course (although you can get a 800-820m drop using the summit of Mansfield).
> 
> I think the only way you could really pull this off in the East is to have a dedicated course. The course would have to be in the Whites or the Adirondacks. Although, for the latter, most mountainsides that would qualify are extremely isolated.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't it be something if skiing, specifically the world cup could gather the excitement and backing to have a project like this actually proposed? Sadly, the days of building dedicated facilities for skiing/racing are gone. Still nice to dream though!


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## andrec10 (Nov 29, 2016)

skiur said:


> How is it solid ice when it is 45 degrees and raining out right now?  Let people on it while it is soft and it will bump up, problem solved.



It was solid on Sunday. Past tense...


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 29, 2016)

Jully said:


> Sadly, the days of building dedicated facilities for skiing/racing are gone.



Not in South Korea
Although there was a lot of push back on the construction of the speed event venue.


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## Jully (Nov 29, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Not in South Korea
> Although there was a lot of push back on the construction of the speed event venue.



I suppose I was thinking in the US. Projects like that were proposed before, like in Maine for the Flagstaff Olympic bid way back when, but longer.


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## dlague (Nov 29, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> From what I saw it didn't look like the normal boiler plate. Also heard some skier say how soft it was.


They were talking about how soft it was getting on Saturday and how rutted it was due to poor surface conditions.  My guess it rewrote from the softer days and they will resurface and till that run so it bumps up better.

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## dlague (Nov 29, 2016)

First many trails are not wide enough for DH or Super G.  The trails that are are straight and relatively short.  There are not too may places where hitting 80+ mph is feasible without concern for your life.  Many resorts are clustered in to pods with no constant pitch.

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## doublediamond (Nov 29, 2016)

DH and SG require 30m (100ft) widths. GS and SL require 40m (130ft) widths.


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## dlague (Nov 29, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> DH and SG require 30m (100ft) widths. GS and SL require 40m (130ft) widths.


Funny thought it would be the other way around.

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## Highway Star (Nov 29, 2016)

dlague said:


> Funny thought it would be the other way around.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


 
No kidding.  Why would you read the FIS rulebook I posted when you can just make up an opinion out of thin air?


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 29, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Surprised that Superstar still isn't open but I guess they need to break all the stuff down so it should be this weekend.



Skyelark will be open tomorrow, apparently.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 29, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Skyelark will be open tomorrow, apparently.


Where did you get that info?

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## WoodCore (Nov 29, 2016)

skiur said:


> How is it solid ice when it is 45 degrees and raining out right now?  Let people on it while it is soft and it will bump up, problem solved.



It's solid ice because they "watered the lawn" Saturday afternoon....


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## chuckstah (Nov 29, 2016)

ALLSKIING said:


> Where did you get that info?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H901 using AlpineZone mobile app


It's listed as open on the trail report, but closed for racing?  Just listed to bump up the trail count maybe?

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## chuckstah (Nov 29, 2016)

Trail count is up to 25. Maybe get a late day opening after race training?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## joshua segal (Nov 30, 2016)

Nothing was open to the public on Skye Peak yesterday (Nov. 29) and today's report nov. 30) indicates that it is still closed.  They did "ice" Superstar for the race.  I suspect it will take both snowmaking and grooming to make it skiable by mortals.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 30, 2016)

40° There this morning. I'm sure the ice isn't that 'solid' and is draining down thru. I'd bet they'll push to have both trails open for the weekend, and capitalize on all the hype and excitement.


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 30, 2016)

joshua segal said:


> Nothing was open to the public on Skye Peak yesterday (Nov. 29) and today's report nov. 30) indicates that it is still closed.  They did "ice" Superstar for the race.  I suspect it will take both snowmaking and grooming to make it skiable by mortals.


They had two groomers on it all day Mon and Tue.

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## dlague (Nov 30, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> No kidding.  Why would you read the FIS rulebook I posted when you can just make up an opinion out of thin air?


Who pissed in your cheerios?

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## SIKSKIER (Nov 30, 2016)

dlague said:


> First many trails are not wide enough for DH or Super G.  The trails that are are straight and relatively short.  There are not too may places where hitting 80+ mph is feasible without concern for your life.  Many resorts are clustered in to pods with no constant pitch.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


One place that certainly is set up for all of that is Avalanche at Cannon where the 1967 World Cup was dominated by Killy.Vertical is too short but a downhill down Tramway,Bypass,Extension, and finally Avalanche is a very breathtaking run excluding the short Bypass flats.Easy to hit 80 safely on Avi.


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## cdskier (Nov 30, 2016)

dlague said:


> Who pissed in your cheerios?



Maybe Mike when HS presented his plan to him and he told HS there's no way he was widening trails and cutting new sections just for the extremely slim chance they could get a DH race. :grin:


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## skiur (Nov 30, 2016)

cdskier said:


> Maybe Mike when HS presented his plan to him and he told HS there's no way he was widening trails and cutting new sections just for the extremely slim chance they could get a DH race. :grin:



HS is still mad at mike for not letting him have his captain jack party at BMMC two years ago.  He has hated on Killington since.


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## Zermatt (Dec 1, 2016)

Was there ever a World Cup event at Sugarbush?

What runs have hosted men's World Cup downhill in the US? Trying to see if I have skied any for comparison.  I skied the Lauberhorn in Wengen two years ago.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2016)

billo said:


> Was there ever a World Cup event at Sugarbush?
> 
> What runs have hosted men's World Cup downhill in the US? Trying to see if I have skied any for comparison.  I skied the Lauberhorn in Wengen two years ago.



Glen Ellen hosted back in the 1970's.


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## cdskier (Dec 1, 2016)

billo said:


> Was there ever a World Cup event at Sugarbush?
> 
> What runs have hosted men's World Cup downhill in the US? Trying to see if I have skied any for comparison.  I skied the Lauberhorn in Wengen two years ago.



Does FIS Telemark World Cup finals count? 
http://www.valleyreporter.com/stories/sport/4027-


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## doublediamond (Dec 1, 2016)

Men’s USA DHs:
Aspen, CO:  2/50(WSC), 3/68, 3/76, 3/81, 3/82, 3/83, 3/84, 3/85, 3/86, 3/87, 2/89, 3/91, 3/92, 3/94, 3/17
Beaver Creek, CO:  3/88, 12/97, 2/99(WSC), 11/99, 12/00, 12/02, 12/03, 12/04, 12/05, 12/06, 11/07, 12/08, 12/09, 12/10, 12/11, 11/12, 12/13, 12/14, 2/15(WSC), 12/15	
Crystal Mtn, WA:  2/72
Franconia, NH:  3/67
Heavenly Valley, CA:  3/77
Jackson Hole, WY:  2/70, 3/75
Lake Placid, NY:  3/79, 2/80(OWG)
Snowbasin, UT:  2/02(OWG)
Squaw Valley, CA:  2/60(OWG)
Sugarloaf, ME:  2/71
Vail, CO:  2/89, 3/94, 12/95, 3/97

Ladies’ USA DHs:
Aspen, CO:  2/50(WSC), 3/68, 3/76, 3/81, 3/82, 3/88, 12/07, 3/17
Beaver Creek, CO:  2/99(WSC), 11/13, 2/15(WSC)
Crystal Mtn, WA:  2/72
Franconia, NH:  3/67
Heavenly Valley, CA:  3/77
Jackson Hole, WY:  2/70, 3/75
Lake Placid, NY:  3/79, 2/80(OWG)
Snowbasin, UT:  2/02(OWG)
Squaw Valley, CA:  2/60(OWG)
Steamboat Springs, CO:  2/89, 12/89
Sugarloaf, ME:  2/71
Vail, CO:  3/85, 3/86, 3/87, 2/89, 3/91, 3/92, 12/92, 3/94, 12/96, 3/97


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## Zermatt (Dec 3, 2016)

Thanks doublediamond for all the details.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 4, 2016)

For those who know the length, width, vertical, ancillary anal FIS requirements of these events, how many eastern resorts could hold a legitimate (i.e. no silly long runout to meet length requirement) downhill event?  

I imagine the list would be pretty short.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Glen Ellen hosted back in the 1970's.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



Just read it was the 1970 USSA National Championship.


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## doublediamond (Dec 5, 2016)

For men, none.  Not even Sugarloaf's Narrow Gauge under modern standards.  Narrow Gauge is homologated but is too short for WC racing.  No other area has sufficient T2B vertical.  I'm discounting Whiteface because it'd has a massive green runout.  Even Narrow Gauge needs a long green runout for lower category DH races.  

For ladies' DH or men's SG ... few could.  Everyone needs some widening:  Stowe (on Lord), Wildcat (on top of Wildcat), Cannon (on Bypass ... Barron's though is out of the question for the pros), and Waterville Valley (some sort of connection say between Upper Bobby's and Sel's Choice). Sugarbush could but it'd need pretty much a new route down or an absolute destruction of Jester.  Off the top of my head, no one else has sufficeint vertical for speed events at the pro level without massive runouts.

Here's most relevant info:



 DH and SG require 30 m widths (99 ft). SL/GS require 40 m (132 ft)* widths.  Short narrower segments may be approved if deemed safe enough.  Inspectors may also required DH/SG/GS courses to be wider than these minimums if deemed unsafe.  Coexisting SL/GS events at the same time must be 90 m wide IIRC, thus the width of Taft Training Slope (can't find it in the current rules).

*only if both runs are on same course. If 2nd run is on another course, only 30 m required


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## deadheadskier (Dec 5, 2016)

Wouldn't Mount Ellen be better than Lincoln Peak for a DH. Longer more consistent vertical and the bottom run-out isn't as flat.  Obviously they would need to widen sections too

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## andrec10 (Dec 5, 2016)

The only 2 mountains in the east that could host a downhill are Whiteface and Sugarloaf.


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## doublediamond (Dec 5, 2016)

Large runout required at Mt. Ellen.


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## Highway Star (Dec 5, 2016)

andrec10 said:


> The only 2 mountains in the east that could host a downhill are Whiteface and Sugarloaf.



As I said previously, there is nothing in the FIS rules stopping Killington from hosting WC DH.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 5, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Large runout required at Mt. Ellen.



Same is true for Lincoln Peak no?  Pretty flat all the way to the bottom from the Lower Jester / Lower Downspout merger.


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## doublediamond (Dec 5, 2016)

Jester to Mall was my thought, no? Keeps it off greens entirely.


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## doublediamond (Dec 5, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> As I said previously, there is nothing in the FIS rules stopping Killington from hosting WC DH.



In your dreams.  Would never be approved. Ever. Tiny VD with a course nearly as long as Wengen. 

And yet you bitch on KZone about Killington hosting a tiny GS and SL race?!?!?!?!?!?!?


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## deadheadskier (Dec 5, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Jester to Mall was my thought, no? Keeps it off greens entirely.


Blasphemy! I would show up with a pitchfork at the mere thought of widening the Mall!

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## chuckstah (Dec 5, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Jester to Mall was my thought, no? Keeps it off greens entirely.


It would never happen on the Mall with lift towers, and yes, blasphemy,  dont need it widened. 

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## moguler6 (Dec 5, 2016)

Vertical drop of Lincoln peak side is only 734'. Has to be Mount Ellen, 793'.


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## doublediamond (Dec 5, 2016)

Mall was just an example of a non-green way down from the top. As I said, it would have the vertical, but would need massive improvements as in a new trail or significant widening.


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## drjeff (Dec 5, 2016)

For atleast the next decade, if not much longer, I'd be stunned if any world cup downhill or Super G(either men's or women's) held in the lower 48 states, is held in any state other than Colorado. Snowbasin no longer has the interest in holding one on their "modern design" downhill courses, Grizzly for the men and Wildflower for the women, that Bernhard Russi designed for the 2002 Olympics, and the reality is with the current World cup schedule, unless one is hosting a world championship, or Olympics or season ending, all 5 disciplines in 1 location event, you're not going to see another speed event added to the calendar unless a current hosting mountain decides not to host their existing event, and that seems unlikely

In reality, the men's downhill and Super G at Beavercreek are going to the the only annual speed events on US soil for a long time to come

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## cdskier (Dec 5, 2016)

Could have used spring fling as a non green option instead of the mall. Probably plenty wide already.  I would love to see a wc dh race in the east but just doubt it will ever happen. That's a shame too as it could be a lot of fun.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 5, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> For men, none.  Not even Sugarloaf's Narrow Gauge under modern standards.  Narrow Gauge is homologated but is too short for WC racing.  No other area has sufficient T2B vertical.  I'm discounting Whiteface because it'd has a massive green runout.  Even Narrow Gauge needs a long green runout for lower category DH races.



Thanks for the info, good stuff.   Whiteface was the only place I would have guessed could pull off a DH.  There would be a flattish cruising runoff, but it doesn't seem like it would be absurd IMO.  They'd carry a lot of speed into it, and it has some reload dips.  I'd like to see some tape of the 1980 Olympics, I know the route they took, but I'd be interested to see how fast (or slow) they were near the bottom.



doublediamond said:


> In your dreams.  Would never be approved. Ever. *Tiny VD with a course nearly as long as Wengen. *
> 
> And *yet you bitch on KZone about Killington hosting a tiny GS and SL race?!*?!?!?!?!?!?



Good points, all.  LOL


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 14, 2017)

Who's going this Nov?

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