# Jay Peak bombshell



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

I've been speculating that something has gone off the rails regarding Jay's EB-5 fundraising.  My assumption was that it was largely due to competition from more urban projects.  I also had a suspicion that part of the problem was due to the dissatisfaction of early investors.  I had stated earlier that Jay's advantage of being an early EB-5 player could be coming back to haunt them because people can now look at the rate of return early investors are receiving.

Well... things were worse than I through in that regard.  Take a look at this:
http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/27/vtdigger-exclusive-jay-peak-loses-trust-first-eb-5-investors/

Folks, the EB-5 gravy train has come to a screeching halt.

One major question: What does this mean for the partially funded Burke hotel?


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## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2014)

Well this is disappointing.  I read bombshell and was expecting something totally different.


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## Abubob (Jul 28, 2014)

All kinds of legal mumbo jumbo. Boils down to an exit strategy gone awry.



> The primary purpose of the program is to help investors obtain green cards and establish U.S. residency, Stenger said. Return on investment and repayment of capital are secondary, he said.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

The basic summary was that JPR quietly changed the terms of the deal...from 5 year exit to 15 year exit plan.  The internal limited partnership documents, apparently, allowed them to make this change without notice or consent of the EB-5 investors.  The investors are pissed.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

Keep in mind that even if it was legal to do this, potential future investors are going to draw their own conclusions when they do their due diligence.  To me, that's one of the most important aspects of this story and why I've suggested that the Jay/Burke EB-5 train may have just imploded.

If I am reading the article correctly, here is what it boils down to:
1) Jay, while not guaranteeing a specific ROI, painted a much rosier picture than reality.
2) To hedge against any risk, the investors were led to believe that they would have an equity interest in the hotel.  
3) The investors, without any knowledge, had their equity interest taken away and became unsecured creditors. 
4) The exit strategy requires the investors to believe that they will get a huge balloon payment down the road.  Investors are skeptical of that promise.
5) The new shit-has-hit-the-fan deal gives them an equity interest, but what did they have to give up to get it?  The article does not say.  Do they have to give up their right to sue?  And even if they do re-establish an equity interest, are they now BEHIND other secured creditors?  And what exactly is their equity interest in?  The article suggests that it's in the resort itself.  With aging equipment and potential senior creditors, does that really provide a substantive equity interest?

Another key element to this story is that investors _may lose confidence in Vermont's Regional Center itself_ - which will screw all sorts of other proposed EB-5 projects. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.


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## Smellytele (Jul 28, 2014)

The investors should have read the fine print stating that there was NEVER a guarantee that they would get any money back. This is actually a better deal where they will get ALL their money back. If they don't realize what investing means then too f'n bad for them. They wanted to come to the US they got that plus they will get their money back. If they don't like it oh well. Will it make future EB-5 green card getters read English? Maybe.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that even if it was legal to do this, potential future investors are going to draw their own conclusions when they do their due diligence.  To me, that's one of the most important aspects of this story and why I've suggested that the Jay/Burke EB-5 train may have just imploded.
> 
> If I am reading the article correctly, here is what it boils down to:
> 1) Jay, while not guaranteeing a specific ROI, painted a much rosier picture than reality.
> ...



I think that the larger message is clear: they are very ambitious and are having a hard time getting the money.  That is no surprise considering the fact that they are now facing stiffer competition for EB-5 money.  It also explains they recent issue with Pomerleau and the airport.  I know that folks argue that the projects are siloed, that there is no need for concern, etc., but I think that the theme is clear...they are having trouble getting money to make things happen.  

As to the Regional Center, folks will be skeptical with that as well.  I think the "turning of the head" issue is part of a bigger issue with Vermont politics and business right now though.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> The investors should have read the fine print stating that there was NEVER a guarantee that they would get any money back.



I think the issue is the change and how it was done.  



> This is actually a better deal where they will get ALL their money back. If they don't realize what investing means then too f'n bad for them. They wanted to come to the US they got that plus they will get their money back. If they don't like it oh well. Will it make future EB-5 green card getters read English? Maybe.



The plan assumes that JPR will be able to make that big balloon payment.  I'm always skeptical of those.


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## WWF-VT (Jul 28, 2014)

Do the EB-5 investors get a discount on tickets for the Pump House ?  Throw in a couple of Party Packages and everyone should be happy.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Do the EB-5 investors get a discount on tickets for the Pump House ?  Throw in a couple of Party Packages and everyone should be happy.



:lol:  Yeah, there you go!  And a free EB-5 investor ski day......in August!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

I think it's a little harsh to have no sympathy for the investors.  While it is correct to say that they should have known there was a risk, what you are presuming is that they were given accurate and complete information when doing their due diligence.  

One has to wonder when we have seen marketing material such as this:
http://jaa.org.za/documents/docs/EB-5_International Ad_SA.pdf

If you look at it, you can see that it states: "Return of investment after 5 years"

Is someone a fool for believing that?  Probably.  But regulations are designed to prevent fools from being taken advantage of.  I am, therefore, also interested in whether or not all regulations were followed - especially the prohibition of suggesting a guaranteed return on investment.  The marketing material I have linked to makes me think that the issue should at least be explored.  It's a good thing for Vermont to have a ski industry that is as squeaky clean as possible.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think the issue is the change and how it was done.



The other HUGE issue is the impact this will have on upcoming projects that are not fully funded - both at Jay and at other Vermont recreational destinations.

A secondary issue is whether or not Jay will be involved in litigation over this matter.  Keep in mind that investors in the later phases have to be shitting a brick right now.  Some of them may pursue legal action as a preventative measure.


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## LONGBOARDR (Jul 28, 2014)

Sad news for Jaypeak, but in reality many of us were waiting for the devil in the details to emerge.

I remember an early warning back sign in 2012 where the Jay eb-5 broker trashed the accuracy of their representations

http://eb5news.com/categories/12-pr...a-agent-broker-rapid-visas-denounces-jay-peak


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The other HUGE issue is the impact this will have on upcoming projects that are not fully funded - both at Jay and at other Vermont recreational destinations.
> 
> A secondary issue is whether or not Jay will be involved in litigation over this matter.  Keep in mind that investors in the later phases have to be shitting a brick right now.  Some of them may pursue legal action as a preventative measure.



True and true.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2014)

I've been telling people this EB-5 situation (and writing here) will end poorly for several years now.  Not only am I not shocked, I expected this, and more.   

The worst is yet to come.  Not only has the **** not hit the fan yet, I dont believe the fan has even been turned on.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> As to* the Regional Center, folks will be skeptical with that as well.  I think the "turning of the head" issue is part of a bigger issue with Vermont politics and business *right now though.



This was for me the most amazing part of the article (if true).

  It makes it sound like the Vermont-run Regional Center hasnt a clue what's going on, doesnt know how to investigate entities finances (or worse perhaps the desire to), or even what it is their fiduciary responsibility is.  It sounds like a local-yocals club more interested in Jay Peak's success than protecting the EB-5 program and the investors from wrong-doing and harm.  Were I Brent Raymond, I'd probably be updating my resume.



This was my favorite part, it's almost not believable:



> *Recently, the center* put the resort “on notice,” and* is now requiring  the company to submit quarterly reports. Before now, the regional center  did not require any formal reporting*, even though MOUs with all the  EB-5 projects include a clause that quarterly reports are to be  submitted.



You've gotta' be friggin' kidding me?


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## bobbutts (Jul 28, 2014)

So correct me if I'm wrong, the tldr version goes something like:
1. Existing investors are having conditions changed and payback timeline pushed back
2. Jay Peak, and probably the entire VT region have now gained a poor reputation as an EB5 investment

Which means:
1.  Existing plans not yet completed likely to be on slower timeline or cancelled.
2.  Future projects much less likely to be funded.
3.  Chance of consequences for people who may have broken the law.


Do people think the finances of JPR may be in trouble too?  Are we headed towards a change of ownership or bankruptcy or something of that nature?


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## Smellytele (Jul 28, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> So correct me if I'm wrong, the tldr version goes something like:
> 1. Existing investors are having conditions changed and payback timeline pushed back
> 2. Jay Peak, and probably the entire VT region have now gained a poor reputation as an EB5 investment
> 
> ...



You forgot about the part that states no guarantee of getting any money back from the investment now they are getting the original investment back (well until they change that part of it  )


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2014)

Were I in charge, at this point, I'd give Jay Peak a limited amount of time to come up to date with the reporting that they're supposed to be doing in the first place. 

 If they miss that date, I'd order a full forensic accounting of Jay Peak's entire business (and I mean from soup to nuts).  And that job would be outsourced out-of-state (Boston, NYC, etc..), because it's pretty damn obvious the State of Vermont either doesn't have the professional capacity for that work or the "desire" to do so.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This was for me the most amazing part of the article (if true).
> 
> It makes it sound like the Vermont-run Regional Center hasnt a clue what's going on, doesnt know how to investigate entities finances (or worse perhaps the desire to), or even what it is their fiduciary responsibility is.  It sounds like a local-yocals club more interested in Jay Peak's success than protecting the EB-5 program and the investors from wrong-doing and harm.  Were I Brent Raymond, I'd probably be updating my resume.
> 
> You've gotta' be friggin' kidding me?



I think that this is just a larger part of the "special rules for special people" climate in Vermont that has really come out over the past four years or so.  If you follow the news from there you get what I mean.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

Here is my take with one caveat: It is my interpretation only of publicly available information discussed in this forum and it's probably wrong.

My gut feeling is that Quiros and Stenger have known for a long time that they cannot pay back the investors. The money just isn't there.  I was at Jay Peak this past weekend, and it's very obvious to me that the summer business just isn't there to pay back the massive amount of money they have raised.  We drove by Stateside to take a peek at the Jeezum Crow Festival.  I didn't get a great view, but what I did see looked VERY lackluster.  I suspect that it did not draw many people.  This is supported by the fact that their Facebook page shows photos of pre-event sound checks, but has no photos at all of the actual event.  

Even if the resort was firing on all cylinders, was it reasonable to believe that they could pay back $250 million in a few years?

So if they can't pay back the investors, what do they do?  They protect the resort from those investors.  If the investors go from an equity interest to an unsecured interest, there isn't anything they can do if they are stiffed.  IMHO, that's what we see at work here.  Quietly restructure things to build a wall to keep the angry horde at bay.  

But here is where things may get tricky.  It is possible that the litigation costs alone may drive Jay into a deep hole.  I find it hard to believe that 500 investors, putting up $250 million, are going to go away quietly.  It is certainly possible that they have no recourse - but they won't leave any stone un-turned before they admit that fact.  Litigation expenses are more affordable when divided by a couple hundred people.

And who knows what other fallout there may be.  I'd hate to be an immigration attorney who reviewed a contract with the provision that allowed this change in ownership to happen.  No doubt there are other players in the process that should be worried.

And depending on how this plays out, Jay (and by association Vermont) could become one of the oft-cited examples of projects that left EB-5 getting screwed over.


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## Tin (Jul 28, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> Do people think the finances of JPR may be in trouble too?  Are we headed towards a change of ownership or bankruptcy or something of that nature?



I don't know how the hell they can afford what they've built in recent years. Hockey tournaments and a few vacation weeks can't foot that bill.


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## mbedle (Jul 28, 2014)

Wow - that document is not good. It is completely illegal to offer a guarantee of return on your investment in the EB-5 program. Another thing people need to understand is a lot of these investors may not care to get their money back. They might be happy just paying the fee to get into USA. I would assume that the ones that are complaining, never hired a lawyer to review all the documents they signed. If they did, I would guess they were made aware of the financial risks associated with this transaction. 



VTKilarney said:


> I think it's a little harsh to have no sympathy for the investors.  While it is correct to say that they should have known there was a risk, what you are presuming is that they were given accurate and complete information when doing their due diligence.
> 
> One has to wonder when we have seen marketing material such as this:
> http://jaa.org.za/documents/docs/EB-5_International Ad_SA.pdf
> ...


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## 56fish (Jul 28, 2014)

Not sure if I'm lazy, stupid or, both......is there a guaranteed  ROI doc anywhere in this thread?  Investors were/are buying a green card or, at least jumping the immigration process line.  Anyone that can afford to drop $500k should have the intelligence or, resources to employ someone capable of finding a safer investment. If making $ is the objective.

Glossy mktg materials have been around since the technology to print them was discovered.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 28, 2014)

I'd be interested in knowing more about the supposed security interest that these investors claim to have possessed.  As I understand them, the EB-5 rules do not permit the people providing money in that program to have the money secured by the assets of the new company (in this case the Base Lodge).

In other words, if you get a security interest on the money you fork over it is a loan and not an investment- and only investors qualify for the EB-5 program 

Either Jay Peak wasn't in compliance with the rules or the investors didn't fully understand their arrangement, or both.

In any event, this combined with the QBurke PR mismanagement doesn't help for future investment.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

Here is what a recent marketing document stated:
_An investor would be purchasing a limited partnership interest and once subscribed will receive a certificate of ownership for that interest. The limited partners as investors would collectively own 100% of that Partnership equity and thereby 100% of that Partnership assets. Limited Partners are entitled to 100% of the net capital proceeds after closing costs and realtor commission._

The document is an interesting read.  It can be found here: http://www.shenlaw.net/cn/eb5_info14.pdf


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

One of the bands playing at the Jeezum Crow festival posted a photo of their performance on Facebook.  Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the four season resort known as Jay Peak:


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 28, 2014)

Okay, I think I'm reading it correctly, now.  I thought the article was suggesting they held secured loans which were converted to unsecured loans... but its that their unsecured ownership interests were converted to unsecured loans- which would be permissible under the EB-5 program after they have their greencards (and the EB-5 oversight is out of the picture).


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One of the bands playing at the Jeezum Crow festival posted a photo of their performance on Facebook.  Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the four season resort known as Jay Peak:
> 
> View attachment 13039



Ouch.  What happened there?!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Okay, I think I'm reading it correctly, now.  I thought the article was suggesting they held secured loans which were converted to unsecured loans... but its that their unsecured ownership interests were converted to unsecured loans- which would be permissible under the EB-5 program after they have their greencards (and the EB-5 oversight is out of the picture).



My impression was that the limited partners owned the partnership assets, which included the building itself.  As owners of an asset, they had some protection if the business venture fails.  The asset itself is worth something even if the business fails.  

I understood what happened to be that they went from actually owning the business assets to being an unsecured creditor of the business.  

Am I wrong?  This is not my area of expertise by any stretch.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One of the bands playing at the Jeezum Crow festival posted a photo of their performance on Facebook.  Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the four season resort known as Jay Peak:
> 
> View attachment 13039



This is not very telling!  I was at a concert last weekend that had five bands/artists.  The first two bands hardly had anyone there the two better known bands are when people started flowing in!

In this case this band could have been a lesser desired band.

As far as this whole mess - I am bummed out since i grew up there and never really like the whole idea.  I grew to be ok with it and those who do not know better love it,  This is a dark cloud hanging over the Jay Cloud!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

It may not be tellng for sure.  It's just all I could find.  Jay Peak hasn't posted any photos other than pre-event photos.  One other band posted photos, but only stage shots.  I did find one attendee's photos, which were consistent with the one I already posted, but they could have been taken around the same time.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> My impression was that the limited partners owned the partnership assets, which included the building itself.  As owners of an asset, they had some protection if the business venture fails.  The asset itself is worth something even if the business fails.



I think you would only own the property in the collective sense with the other owners.  You are only in a better position if you have a security agreement.  Without it, you're subject to the same priorities in distribution of the assets if it goes belly up as other unsecured creditors.  In other words, you only get paid once the secured creditors, administrators of the estate and the tax man get paid.

I think where you would lose out, however, has to do with the payment schedule.  If your share of the annual net disbursement was more than the $20k figure they mentioned (the yearly repayment figure on the new notes), then you could have received a faster return on your investment.

Also, if you are really dreaming big, I suppose your particular share in the business could be sold for much more than your initial investment.  But all of that would be controlled by the Partnership Agreement, which apparently allowed for the GP's to convert the ownership interest into an unsecured note without the permission of the limited partners.   

If the agreement allowed for this, then the investors really don't have an argument- or a legitimate beef--- other than that they should have gotten a snailmail letter instead of an email to inform them of the change.  But the manner of notice seems pretty tangential to their beef.  If they didn't like that deal, then they shouldn't have signed an agreement for that deal.  

Now I'm sure the expectations were different five years ago (Most people thought we would pull out of the recession by now), and they were given rosy projections based on those expectations... Given the climate in the leisure industry its a miracle Jay has managed to weather the storm this long before having some disgruntled investors. (As there always are when reality meets expectations)

That said, they're still knee deep in some of these projects (our beloved QBurke being one of them), and still need investor $$$$$ which means public perception is everything.  Let's hope they find a way to turn it around quickly.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> In other words, you only get paid once the secured creditors, administrators of the estate and the tax man get paid.


My understanding was that the investors were led to believe that there would be no secured creditors or mortgage holders.  This makes sense since the investors were providing the funds rather than a lender.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

I was able to find a photo of the main act at the Jeezum Crow festival.  It's hard to make much out of it since it's dark, but it appears that more people showed up for the main attraction.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It may not be tellng for sure.  It's just all I could find.  Jay Peak hasn't posted any photos other than pre-event photos.  One other band posted photos, but only stage shots.  I did find one attendee's photos, which were consistent with the one I already posted, but they could have been taken around the same time.




However, I would not be surprised if there were small crowds!  Summer disperses people (beaches, hiking, biking, boating etc.) where winter brings many together due to few sports opportunities and many of them require a resort.


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## dlague (Jul 28, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I was able to find a photo of the main act at the Jeezum Crow festival.  It's hard to make much out of it since it's dark, but it appears that more people showed up for the main attraction.
> 
> View attachment 13040



Wonder how that feels being a warm up band with hardly anyone there?  The the bigger names show up and people come out of the wood work.


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## xlr8r (Jul 28, 2014)

All I'm gonna say is: 

ASC 2.0


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## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2014)

xlr8r said:


> All I'm gonna say is:
> 
> ASC 2.0


Except that ASC's creditors had some recourse.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 28, 2014)

This is not surprising.  That was a lot of money and hard to understand how they were going to make it back.  When I went up there last year in March they were practically paying us to stay at the tram house.  I think we got 2 nights in 2br unit for $400, which included 3 days lift tickets and water park for 4 of us.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> This is not surprising.  That was a lot of money and hard to understand how they were going to make it back.  When I went up there last year in March they were practically paying us to stay at the tram house.  I think we got 2 nights in 2br unit for $400, which included 3 days lift tickets and water park for 4 of us.



Wow. Crazy deal. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> This is not surprising.  That was a lot of money and hard to understand how they were going to make it back.  When* I went up there last year in March they were practically paying us to stay at the tram house.  I think we got 2 nights in 2br unit for $400, which included 3 days lift tickets and water park for 4 of us*.



And remember, they're still ADDING to capacity.   There are going to be some phenomenal Jay Peak lodging deals a handful of years from now.   

The downside, of course, is that I predict Jay is going to significantly increase lift ticket prices in the next few years.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2014)

Well, they are about $15 under market rate for walk up purchases right now. All the major players in VT are $80+.  Jay charges $69 ($64 if bought online).  That's the same price as Bolton Valley.


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## doublediamond (Jul 29, 2014)

I guarantee Jay Peak didn't put the money up for the festival.  They are all run by promoters.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

doublediamond said:


> I guarantee Jay Peak didn't put the money up for the festival.  They are all run by promoters.


That may be true, but surely Jay intended to sell hotel rooms and other things to the concert goers.


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## Edd (Jul 29, 2014)

Staying at that hotel and watching shows for a couple of days sounds great. My days of sleeping in tents at festivals are behind me. Just can't do it.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One of the bands playing at the Jeezum Crow festival posted a photo of their performance on Facebook.  Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the four season resort known as Jay Peak:
> 
> View attachment 13039


Thats cuz we were all at the Jerryjam festival in NH.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> And remember, they're still ADDING to capacity.   There are going to be some phenomenal Jay Peak lodging deals a handful of years from now.
> 
> The downside, of course, is that I predict Jay is going to significantly increase lift ticket prices in the next few years.



no doubt they will increase the ticket prices, but I think what we have seen in the past from other ski resort operators with big debt loads, is that they are forced to cut back on infrastructure maintenance and operating expenses and a vicious cycle sets in.


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## Highway Star (Jul 29, 2014)

You could pretty much see this coming.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

We can only wait and see what happens.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, they are about $15 under market rate for walk up purchases right now. All the major players in VT are $80+.  Jay charges $69 ($64 if bought online).  That's the same price as Bolton Valley.



You're assuming $84 is market rate?  That's a bit strong in my opinion.   I think Jay Peak is currently fairly priced.  I view them most similarly to Smuggler's Notch in terms of quality of terrain etc., and Smuggs is at $68.  Sugarbush is just a few bucks more.  Stowe is Stowe, and Killington can lick my balls with their price.  As for Bolton, my guess is a fairly low percentage of people pay the posted walkup rate.  There are plentiful coupons, and many of their clientele are locals as well



HowieT2 said:


> *
> no doubt they will increase the ticket prices, but I think what we have seen in the past from other ski resort operators with big debt loads, is that they are forced to cut back on infrastructure maintenance and operating expenses and a vicious cycle sets in*.



At this point, I'm more worried about the accounting than their ability to pay off (if ever) "investors".  

If the recent report is accurate, I'd call this unprecedented, at least to my knowledge I cant think of another instance where this much money has been awarded with no external reporting obligations - or, more accurately, where the reporting obligations have simply not been complied with and nobody seems to care.  

I think we're at something like > *$300 MILLION dollars* at this point with absurdly loose financial controls.  And there's several hundred million more EB-5 dollars waiting on deck!  The total figure is 3/4 BILLION dollars.

  This is the type scenario that has the potential to be a Bernie Madoff wet-dream.  Perhaps not a single penny has been spent improperly, and perhaps every contract was given due to competitive bid and merit rather than _"my wife's brother runs this paving company"_, but the alarming thing is that the State of Vermont currently doesn't have a clue either way.  It's positively remarkable!


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## dlague (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sugarbush is just a few bucks more.



Sugarbush on weekends is the same price as Killington $89 - Mt Ellen only at Sugarbush is $69 like Jay Peak.  Mt Ellen is nothing like Jay Peak!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're assuming $84 is market rate?  That's a bit strong in my opinion.   I think Jay Peak is currently fairly priced.  I view them most similarly to Smuggler's Notch in terms of quality of terrain etc., and Smuggs is at $68.  Sugarbush is just a few bucks more.  Stowe is Stowe, and Killington can lick my balls with their price.  As for Bolton, my guess is a fairly low percentage of people pay the posted walkup rate.  There are plentiful coupons, and many of their clientele are locals as well.



I might be wrong, but Sugarbush was in the $80 range.  Let's face it though because of Jay's distant location they have to be a bit lower price.  



> At this point, I'm more worried about the accounting than their ability to pay off (if ever) "investors".
> 
> If the recent report is accurate, I'd call this unprecedented, at least to my knowledge I cant think of another instance where this much money has been awarded with no external reporting obligations - or, more accurately, where the reporting obligations have simply not been complied with and nobody seems to care.
> 
> ...



I see myself moving increasingly more to this POV, especially considering the (lack of) oversight and issues that are appearing.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Except that ASC's creditors had some recourse.



This brings up a good point. 

The money comes from investors and not lenders/creditors...

Are they (Jay) really in a worse position than those companies who borrowed big money from banks to fund expansion?

For all the flak this program takes you would think people were upset that they didn't go out and borrow gobs of money from investment bankers to do these projects.   

And as for lack of oversight, name a private (non-publicly traded) company with more oversight.

For each immigrant investor/owner USCIS has to approve the business plan, source of the funds, verify the funds were legally obtained and perform extensive background checks looking into their health and arrest records- for themselves and their family members.  Two years after the initial approval they go through it again.  

In addition, each of the businesses are subject to oversight by the regional EB-5 center under a plan that was approved by the Federal Government.  Any material changes to the business plan requires re-approval from the EB-5 center.

Further, the regional center provides yearly reports to USCIS for re-accreditation which include figures on how and where capital was spent.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> This brings up a good point.
> 
> The money comes from investors and not lenders/creditors...
> 
> ...



One key aspect for many EB-5 programs is that they CAN'T get traditional financing.  They all are deemed, for one reason or another, too risky for traditional financing options.  The EB-5 route is supposed to be an avenue for these riskier projects to get funding that they need and, theoretically, create jobs and more opportunity.    



> And as for lack of oversight, name a private (non-publicly traded) company with more oversight.





> In addition, each of the businesses are subject to oversight by the regional EB-5 center under a plan that was approved by the Federal Government.  Any material changes to the business plan requires re-approval from the EB-5 center.
> 
> Further, the regional center provides yearly reports to USCIS for re-accreditation which include figures on how and where capital was spent.



This is the specific issue here--that from the article it appears that the VT center did not really look to closely at JPR's business plan/internal operations.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

dlague said:


> *Sugarbush on weekends is the same price as Killington $89* - Mt Ellen only at Sugarbush is $69 like Jay Peak.  Mt Ellen is nothing like Jay Peak!



My bad then, for some reason I thought it was ~$75.



thetrailboss said:


> I might be wrong, but Sugarbush was in the $80 range.  Let's face it though *because of Jay's distant location they have to be a bit lower price.  *



Absolutely.  Their remote location versus competitors has always been their biggest hurdle.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> For all the flak this program takes *you would think people were upset that they didn't go out and borrow gobs of money from investment bankers to do these projects.    *



Jay couldn't have.   No investment bank would have lent them this money, because it's not a financially responsible investment with a suitable return.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> And* as for lack of oversight, name a private (non-publicly traded) company with more oversight.*



  That receive money that's touched government hands; all of them?  



noreasterbackcountry said:


> In addition, *each of the businesses are subject to oversight by the regional EB-5 center* under a plan that was approved by the Federal Government.



Which we now know isn't happening. 

  Did you read the article in full?    This is a total black box.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

Where does it say that they didn't look closely at the internal documents/business plan?

What I see is that the regional center received complaints from disgruntled investors who felt they weren't being paid back fast enough and were being converted to unsecured note holders (from unsecured ownership interests), the Center read the agreements to see - lo and behold- everything that Jay was doing was called for in the contract, and told the investors what they found- Jay had a right to do what they were doing.

I see this as investors who were probably given rosy projections on how quickly they would be paid back, ignored any language in their agreements about the "at risk" nature of their investment, and are now throwing around allegations of fraud to try and leverage a better payback schedule (and secured status) knowing that Jay and QBurke are highly sensitive to public perception.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay couldn't have.   No investment bank would have lent them this money, because it's not a financially responsible investment with a suitable return.



All the more reason to be in favor of the EB-5 program.  They allow for development that investment bankers view as too risky.  Although you should also note that per the article there is private equity investment in Jay--- so somebody did think it was a decent opportunity, albeit not to the tune of $600 million.  

I also wouldn't go too far with the "banks only do reasonable investments" argument. 

The point is that Jay is in a much better position than those companies that leveraged themselves to the teeth with loans.  I'm guessing that 1% rate to the investors is much better than the interest other places are paying on their loans.


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## timm (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> At this point, I'm more worried about the accounting than their ability to pay off (if ever) "investors".



Bingo. Even if nothing shady IS going on the absence of reporting is just as troublesome as any evidence of bad intent. Incompetence can destroy just as fast and easily as malice.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

IMHO, what we are seeing is Jay Peak's acknowledgement that they can't afford to pay these investors back.  As I said earlier, they are circling the wagons based on this reality.  So far we have seen two strategies:
1) Kick the can down the road by promising small payments for a few years and then a balloon payment at the end.  The theory is that this would keep them happy so long as the small payments are being made.
2) Structure things so that there is no recourse for investors who are not paid back.  Changing their status to unsecured creditors is an example.

The biggest problem is that by doing this the EB-5 gig is up for Jay Peak.  Nobody in their right mind is going to fork over $500,000 to these folks from this point forward.  So what you see is what you are going to get.  And it gets worse.  I suspect that no creditor in their right mind would touch Jay Peak with a ten foot pole from here on out.  Even if they don't have to pay their "investors" back, they still have massive amounts of debt on their books.  So it's probably safe to assume that they aren't going to be spending any significant money on operational improvements in the foreseeable future.  This alone will put them at a disadvantage in the marketplace.

If there is trouble for Jay, here is where I see it coming from:
1) The feds and/or state intervene.  (doubtful)
2) Jay gets mired in litigation. (possible)
3) Revenues don't meet the expenses of running all of these new facilities.  (Based on my anecdotal observations, this is possible.)  Water parks and golf courses aren't cheap to run.  Hotels need customers more than five months out of the year in order to break even.
4) Jay can't make necessary operational improvements to stay competitive in the marketplace.  (questionable)  Jay's lift system, for example, leaves a lot to be desired.

Some folks assume that litigation is out of the question because the contract allowed for the changes that Jay Peak implemented.  I wouldn't be so certain about that.  First of all, anyone can sue anyone.  Even if Jay wins, it's going to cost them money to get to that point.  Secondly, I can think of several possible claims.  Two of the possible claims are: a) fraudulent inducement; b) failure to follow professional standards.

One wildcard  to all of the above: I suspect that there are actually several different companies.  It's not all "Jay Peak" on paper.  The structuring of these companies may make my analysis way off base.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Where does it say that they didn't look closely at the internal documents/business plan?



I think this is what people are referring to (from the VT Digger article):
_Before now, the regional center did not require any formal reporting, even though MOUs with all the EB-5 projects include a clause that quarterly reports are to be submitted._

Are the MOUs they are referring to between the developer and Vermont's EB-5 Regional Center?


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> 2) Structure things so that there is no recourse for investors who are not paid back.  Changing their status to unsecured creditors is an example.


Except that the article indicates the latest offer includes a security interest, which is an improvement over their original unsecured position when they first invested.



VTKilarney said:


> I suspect that no creditor in their right mind would touch Jay Peak with a ten foot pole from here on out.  Even if they don't have to pay their debtors back, they still have massive amounts of debt on their books.



If there are no secured lien holders over the assets (which you suggested in a previous comment) they should have no problem getting additional financing up to the value of the unsecured assets- given that they would get priority over any unsecured debt holders.



VTKilarney said:


> 3) Revenues don't meet the expenses of running all of these new facilities.  (Based on my anecdotal observations, this is possible.)  Water parks and golf courses aren't cheap to run.  Hotels need customers more than five months out of the year in order to break even.



It's easier if you're paying 1% interest on the money used to build the infrastructure... but you've got a point. At some point it has to become a profitable enterprise or it will go away, like any business-- except banks.



VTKilarney said:


> First of all, anyone can sue anyone.


  For the most part this is true, but remember that the money flows though the regional center.  This complicates the calculus as my understanding is that the regional center is a state entity and has some immunity from suit.

More to your point though, even if they can't tie up the investments in Court, the allegations of impropriety from disgruntled investors are enough to discourage future investment and derail the regional development plan.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think this is what people are referring to (from the VT Digger article):
> _Before now, the regional center did not require any formal reporting, even though MOUs with all the EB-5 projects include a clause that quarterly reports are to be submitted.  _



That makes no sense given the reporting requirements I've read about.  In addition the article also says, "_He [Stenger] said Jay Peak provided quarterly reports and required documentation throughout the limited partnership, and the company is now responding to requests for detailed financial accounting."
_[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, serif]
The author doesn't reconcile this inconsistency in the article, and I'm inclined to believe, given the USCIS and regional center requirements, that it was a misstatement, much like the false impression given that investors originally had a secured position.[/FONT]


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Where does it say that they didn't look closely at the internal documents/business plan?
> 
> What I see is that the regional center received complaints from disgruntled investors who felt they weren't being paid back fast enough and were being converted to unsecured note holders (from unsecured ownership interests), the Center read the agreements to see - lo and behold- everything that Jay was doing was called for in the contract, and told the investors what they found- Jay had a right to do what they were doing.
> 
> I see this as investors who were probably given rosy projections on how quickly they would be paid back, ignored any language in their agreements about the "at risk" nature of their investment, and are now throwing around allegations of fraud to try and leverage a better payback schedule (and secured status) knowing that Jay and QBurke are highly sensitive to public perception.



Well....not exactly.  

The Partnership Agreement did provide that the GP could unilaterally make such a change to the agreement without notice or consent.  Apparently, JPR as the GP opted to change the LP's ownership interests and did not give them notice or the ability to consent to the move.  

JPR, for whatever reason, finally notified the LP's (the investors) of the change from (1) equity ownership to unsecured ownership, and (2) from a 5-year exit plan to a 15 year exit plan.  Those are pretty big changes that I think any investor would be concerned with.  

The article states that, at least one side, claims that the VT authorities merely directed complaints to Jay; another part has an admission that JPR, though within its power to make these changes, did not act with the "best accepted practice".  

Of course what is implied is that the reason for the change was because of financial problems.  We can only wait and see if that is the case.  

As to reporting, you're right that the system does have oversight over the investors, but the issue here is what is going on with their money.  The article I believe says that VT is only now requiring JPR to provide quarterly reports.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> All the more reason to be in favor of the EB-5 program.  They allow for development that investment bankers view as too risky.  Although you should also note that per the article there is private equity investment in Jay--- so somebody did think it was a decent opportunity, albeit not to the tune of $600 million.



I think that these "private investors" are actually Messrs. Quiros and Stenger.  



> The point is that Jay is in a much better position than those companies that leveraged themselves to the teeth with loans.  I'm guessing that 1% rate to the investors is much better than the interest other places are paying on their loans.



This assumes that JPR can actually make good on its plan to pay back its EB-5 investors.  I think folks are questioning that assumption.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Except that the article indicates the latest offer includes a security interest, which is an improvement over their original unsecured position when they first invested.



That's not correct.  They originally had equity ownership.  That was converted to unsecured loans.  Now, apparently, it is something different.  



> For the most part this is true, but remember that the money flows though the regional center.  This complicates the calculus as my understanding is that the regional center is a state entity and has some immunity from suit.



From my understanding, "regional centers" do not have to be operated by state government.  Some are done in other forms.  Vermont decided to have its Economic Development folks run one.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> *All the more reason to be in favor of the EB-5 program.  They allow for development that investment bankers view as too risky.*



Hardly.  EB-5 is the artificial monkeying with small-scale economies, and it will have negative unforeseen consequences with very little real local benefit.  The "jobs created" metric, for instance, is obscenely fraudulent and laughable. 

 At the end of the day, this is nothing more than wealthy foreigners skipping the long-line of immigrants trying to gain access to America legally, and simply "paying" to be here.  In my opinion, it's loathesome, and worse, it's will prove to be financially harmful, not beneficial. 



VTKilarney said:


> *The biggest problem is that by doing this the EB-5 gig is up for Jay Peak.  Nobody in their right mind is going to fork over $500,000 to these folks from this point forward.  So what you see is what you are going to get.  And it gets worse.*  I suspect that no creditor in their right mind would touch Jay Peak with a ten foot pole from here on out.



It could get much worse.  And lets not forget the genesis of them being able to get all this money wasn't 100% about Jay Peak Ski Resort, there was also a very big carrot being waved in front of the rabbit to help Newport and that region's economy, to create much needed jobs, etc...   That's likely not going to come to fruition now (which I was skeptical about from day 1 with the big Biotech company, etc...).



noreasterbackcountry said:


> That makes no sense given the reporting requirements I've read about.  In addition the article also says, "_He [*Stenger] said Jay Peak provided quarterly reports and required documentation throughout the limited partnership, and the company is now responding to requests for detailed financial accounting."*
> _
> *The author doesn't reconcile this inconsistency in the article*, and I'm inclined to believe, given the USCIS and regional center requirements, that it was a misstatement, much like the false impression given that investors originally had a secured position.



You're not reading it right.

AFAIK, Stenger's comments ONLY refer to the very first project, the Tram Haus, and not the others.  That, project, by the way was the smallest of the EB-5 concerns in terms of money at only $17.5M.    LOL.    The second clue was the_ "and the company is now"_ part.


And there's plenty of CYA work going on with the State of Vermont right now, because: 



> *Moulton said Friday the center has been monitoring Jay Peak “right along.”*



Does NOT jive in any way shape or form, with:



> Recently, *the center put the resort “on notice,” and is now requiring  the company to submit quarterly reports. Before now, the regional center  did not require any formal reporting*



You cannot in one breath say you've been "monitoring" an entities finances, and in the next breath acknowledge there's no formal reporting in place.  ≠ 

I guarantee you there are some people in Montpelier right now sweating and praying everything is on the up-and-up here.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> That's not correct.  They originally had equity ownership.  That was converted to unsecured loans.



Which is to say that they were converted from an unsecured interest to an unsecured interest.  Given that their equity interest was in the form of a limited (and non-voting) partnership interest, I can't see that they've lost much.  And even if they did, the change was authorized in their partnership agreement.

Having buyer's remorse about the agreement that allowed for this type of change is a long way from fraud.

Also, having an issue with the way in which this change was communicated is a long way from fraud.



thetrailboss said:


> This assumes that JPR can actually make good on its plan to pay back its EB-5 investors. I think folks are questioning that assumption.



I'm actually not assuming that.  I'm saying that it is easier to make good on the plan to pay back EB-5 investors at 1% then it is to make good on an agreement to pay back a bank at 5%+.  Plus, if you fail to pay the bank they can seize the assets, whereas if you fail to make your expected returns to investors or pay back unsecured note holders their options are much more limited. 

The point being that Jay is in a better position than those companies that have to pay back higher interest rates on the money they borrowed to build infrastructure.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> *JPR, for whatever reason, finally notified the* LP's (the *investors*) of the change from (1) equity ownership to unsecured ownership, and (2) from a 5-year exit plan to a 15 year exit plan.  Those are pretty big changes that I think any investor would be concerned with.



Oh, the _"whatever reason"_ for the numerous month delay is quite obvious.  

As VTKilarney noted, the foreign money moving into Jay Peak is going to slow substantially now.  

*By intentionally stalling for 5 months it gave Jay Peak 5 more months to lock up more investors to the tune of $500,000 apiece! * Of course, the journalist cant come out and SAY that, but I think it's pretty obvious.  In fact, if you're one of those $500,000 folks who signed on during that 5 month delay, I'd say you have suitable grounds for a lawsuit.  Material change in contract non-disclosed.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Hardly.  EB-5 is the artificial monkeying with small-scale economies, and it will have negative unforeseen consequences with very little real local benefit.  The "jobs created" metric, for instance, is obscenely fraudulent and laughable.   At the end of the day, this is nothing more than wealthy foreigners skipping the long-line of immigrants trying to gain access to America legally, and simply "paying" to be here.  In my opinion, it's loathesome, and worse, it's will prove to be financially harmful, not beneficial.



Our immigration system is based on preferences.  Spouses of citizens get preferential treatment over spouses of permanent residents.  Adult brothers and sisters of citizens have to wait longer than children of permanent residents.  And cooks have to wait longer than people willing to invest a half million dollars to create jobs.  It's far from perfect, but its hardly "loathsome".  Remember that immigration laws themselves are a barrier to pure free market capitalism.  In a true libertarian society, people would be allowed to freely immigrate and invest- but we (understandably) have barriers against that.  How people move through those barriers is a reflection of our priorities and we prioritize those who are willing to put up $500k to create jobs over those who are apple pickers.  I'm okay with that. Ideally, I think both should be easier, but that's just me.

I also think your "artificial monkeying" argument is a bit overly dramatic.  Is it any less artificial when a bank loans the money for a project?  The folks in investment banks who make decisions on where to invest are just as prone to screwing up as folks who work in the EB-5 centers.  If recent history is any indication, they are MORE prone to error.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Which is to say that they were converted from an unsecured interest to an unsecured interest.  Given that their equity interest was in the form of a limited (and non-voting) partnership interest, I can't see that they've lost much.  And even if they did, the change was authorized in their partnership agreement.



So going from an equity ownership interest to an unsecured "IOU" was no big change?  

And the issue, again, was the long delay in letting folks know.  



> Having buyer's remorse about the agreement that allowed for this type of change is a long way from fraud.



:roll:  That is NOT what they are saying.  



> Also, having an issue with the way in which this change was communicated is a long way from fraud.



So waiting over a year to inform your partners of the change is not a big deal?  Generally speaking in a partnership partners owe a duty of loyalty to each other.  I think that the implication here is that JPR was not on the "up and up" with this move.  





> I'm actually not assuming that.  I'm saying that it is easier to make good on the plan to pay back EB-5 investors at 1% then it is to make good on an agreement to pay back a bank at 5%+.  Plus, if you fail to pay the bank they can seize the assets, whereas if you fail to make your expected returns to investors or pay back unsecured note holders their options are much more limited.
> 
> The point being that Jay is in a better position than those companies that have to pay back higher interest rates on the money they borrowed to build infrastructure.



You're on a different wavelength.  Folks are saying that this change and the kerfuffle may be a sign that revenue to pay back said investors is just not there and that this is a move to perhaps delay the inevitable.  



BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, the _"whatever reason"_ for the numerous month delay is quite obvious.
> 
> As VTKilarney noted, the foreign money moving into Jay Peak is going to slow substantially now.
> 
> *By intentionally stalling for 5 months it gave Jay Peak 5 more months to lock up more investors to the tune of $500,000 apiece! * Of course, the journalist cant come out and SAY that, but I think it's pretty obvious.  In fact, if you're one of those $500,000 folks who signed on during that 5 month delay, I'd say you have suitable grounds for a lawsuit.  Material change in contract non-disclosed.



Yeah, that would be my "whatever reason" because, as you said, they don't want to scare folks away.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> *By intentionally stalling for 5 months it gave Jay Peak 5 more months to lock up more investors to the tune of $500,000 apiece! *


Bingo.  IMHO, it was also to give him time to lock current investors in, such as with the Burke hotel.  If the Burke hotel investors caught wind of this before the project started, how many of them would have pulled their money out?  

The first concrete chink in Stenger's armor was when Pomerleau came out of the shadows.  Ever since then, Stenger has been in full on damage control mode.  He's been insisting that everything is rosy.  Now that game is up.  He has lost all credibility and he's going to be getting pressure from every possible angle.  Quite simply, this project has now changed from expansion to mere containment.  

Perhaps the key to Jay Peak's future is if Stenger is ultimately seen as a genius who tried his best or if he is seen as a snake oil salesman.  If it's the latter, he's going to have no friends for support.  He'll have absolutely no room for error as far as operations are concerned.  

One question: Is there any possibility of securities violations/fraud with EB-5 fundraising?  Or is EB-5 fundraising outside of the purview of those regulations?

Remember Rapid USA Visas, the former marketing agent for Jay Peak Resort’s EB-5 visa projects?  They look pretty damn smart now.  I'd hate to be a marketing agent that subsequently offered these EB-5 investments.  Those people are probably shitting a brick right now, especially since at least one firm proved that they should have done due diligence.  People like this guy ought to be scrubbing their websites: http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

Gotta love this quote from here: http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/
_James Candido, the principal overseer of State of Vermont EB-5 projects, stated to me that he inspects Jay Peak’s financial records at least four times per year and that he has not seen any financial irregularities or problems in Jay Peak’s finances. _


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I also think your "artificial monkeying" argument is a bit overly dramatic.*  Is it any less artificial when a bank loans the money for a project?  *



Yes.  Dramatically so.  Good lord in heaven, they're not even remotely similar.  

The former is made chiefly due to the fact that it's _likely_ a *poor* investment.
The latter is made chiefly due to the fact that it's_ likely _a *good* investment.   

And that's just for starters.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> *The folks in investment banks who make decisions on where to invest are just as prone to screwing up as folks who work in the EB-5 centers. * If recent history is any indication, they are MORE prone to error.



As someone who used to be a "folk" who worked at an investment bank, I can assure you you're wrong.  On its' face, your comment is ridiculous even if you intended it to by hyperbolic (which I dont think you did).  

Investment banks do not make money by _"screwing up"_, and if you repeatedly "screw up" even so much as a little bit at a bulge bracket player, you'll likely be out on your ass.  I can assure you, it's about the least safe working environment anywhere in America for "screwing up", with the possible exception of surgery.  I'm also fairly certain you likely don't understand what caused the "banking collapse" that you've now alluded to multiple times in this thread, but I'm just as certain that you think that you do.  Spoiler Alert: The crisis was decades in the making, there's plenty of blame to go around, and it certainly wasn't all the banks fault.  Not hardly.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

Here is another gem of a quote from Stenger in the article I linked above:
_As it happens, the exit strategy issue may be a moot point as regards Phase I investors. Stenger volunteered during our discussions that the revenue trends on Phase I residences are looking so good “that we are seriously considering buying out the Phase I investors ourselves.”_

Stenger better have records to back this statement up.  If not, these are the kinds of things that support a subsequent investor's allegation of fraud.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is another gem of a quote from Stenger in the article I linked above:
> _As it happens, the exit strategy issue may be a moot point as regards Phase I investors. Stenger volunteered during our discussions that the revenue trends on Phase I residences are looking so good “that we are seriously considering buying out the Phase I investors ourselves.”_
> 
> Stenger better have records to back this statement up.  If not, these are the kinds of things that support a subsequent investor's allegation of fraud.



Optimism?  Yes.  Misrepresentation?  Maybe.  Fraud?  I don't think so.  I don't think there is any misallocation or wrongdoing going on.  I think it is more just a reflection of what they do.  

Anyone who has followed Jay knows two things.  First, they always push the envelope when it comes to marketing because they had to given their location.  There's nothing wrong with that and it's a reflection of the industry (think of the OLD Killington and their marketing).  Ask anyone in the NEK who skis about the "Jay Ruler" for snowstorms and you'll get the idea.  Almost irrational exuberance.  Second, the previous ownership were real cheapskates.  They invested hardly ANYTHING in Jay and took all the money out.  This left Stenger, who was never short on ideas, very hungry.  Now he's got access to capital.  You can kind of see how we got to where we are.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2014)

I can now see why the investors were pissed.  Apparently they were led to believe that they would acquire fractional ownership of units that they could sell on the open market.  This was pitched as the exit strategy.  There is a big difference between being able to sell an ownership interest in a unit and being an unsecured creditor.  Even if they become secured creditors of the resort (whatever that means), this is not nearly as appealing as their original expectation.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Optimism?  Yes.  Misrepresentation?  Maybe.  Fraud?  I don't think so.



Optimism would be naive. Misrepresentation is certainly factual.

Fraud I think would be very difficult to prove, but I'm not a lawyer and I haven't even played one on TV.

But there's no doubt now that Stenger made those statement's knowing full-well that they'd be digested by future potential investors.  In other words, he was totally full of crap regarding how well the "investments" were looking.   That's a heckuva lot worse than telling people your 6" storm is 9".


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Optimism would be naive. Misrepresentation is certainly factual.
> 
> Fraud I think would be very difficult to prove, but I'm not a lawyer and I haven't even played one on TV.
> 
> But there's no doubt now that Stenger made those statement's knowing full-well that they'd be digested by future potential investors.  In other words, he was totally full of crap regarding how well the "investments" were looking.   That's a heckuva lot worse than telling people your 6" storm is 9".



Certainly have to agree.  That's the reason for some of the securities laws.


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## dlague (Jul 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I might be wrong, but Sugarbush was in the $80 range.  Let's face it though because of Jay's distant location they have to be a bit lower price.
> 
> 
> 
> I see myself moving increasingly more to this POV, especially considering the (lack of) oversight and issues that are appearing.



Yup top of the 80 range - 89 on weekends.


.......


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## ss20 (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> _James Candido, the principal overseer of State of Vermont EB-5 projects, stated to me that he inspects Jay Peak’s financial records at least four times per year and that he has not seen any financial irregularities or problems in Jay Peak’s finances. _



A multi-million dollar company starts the biggest EB-5 project in the state and you inspect the finances once every three months?  Kinda odd to me.  What else are they doing at this EB-5 office anyway?  I didn't even know there was a whole office for EB-5 till this thread.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2014)

ss20 said:


> A multi-million dollar company starts the biggest EB-5 project in the state and *you inspect the finances once every three months?  Kinda odd to me.*



That's fine.  Quarterly reviews are standard.   Not inspecting the finances at all, however, which has been alleged, is not.  

Assuming reviews are taking place, however, I do question whether the analysis of Jay Peak's financials (assuming they took place) is full & competent.  I just took approximately 25 seconds to look up "James Candido's" profile on LindeIn, and his undergraduate is in Political Science and Psychology, later an MBA.  That is not the type of background you want to see for the person in charge of leading a financial review if he is indeed the "_principal overseer", _as what you linked states.  Hopefully by "overseer" it just means he delegates that task to a small team of accountants. 



ss20 said:


> *What else are they doing at this EB-5 office anyway?  I didn't even know there was a whole office for EB-5* till this thread.



A great question.  Sounds like your stereotypical phenomenal government gig.  LOL.  

Here's a link to their web-page from the State of Vermont.  It's way too EB-5 "cheer-leader'ish" for my liking, so if that does indeed flow through to the way they conduct their affairs, the Jay Peak investors may have a point regarding the VT EB-5 office not being interested in their concerns.

This part is a bit odd too, to say the least - the very first thing on their webpage is a "WARNING" about Rapid USA Visas (below).  

That's the company if you recall claimed it no longer had confidence in Jay Peak's financials.  Regardless of whether Rapid USA Visas is correct or not, it's unusual for a government agency to make such a bold declaration.  I'd call it unprofessional; and why is it necessary at all?  It certainly gives a clear impression the State of Vermont is actively "taking a side" in the matter.




> _*WARNING*_: The Vermont EB5 Regional Center is NOT affiliated in any way with the following private business: Rapid USA Visas, Inc. of Naples, Florida or its website "EB5Vermont.com".



http://accd.vermont.gov/business/relocate_expand/eb5


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's fine.  Quarterly reviews are standard.   Not inspecting the finances at all, however, which has been alleged, is not.
> 
> Assuming reviews are taking place, however, I do question whether the analysis of Jay Peak's financials (assuming they took place) is full & competent.  I just took approximately 25 seconds to look up "James Candido's" profile on LindeIn, and his undergraduate is in Political Science and Psychology, later an MBA.  That is not the type of background you want to see for the person in charge of leading a financial review if he is indeed the "_principal overseer", _as what you linked states.  Hopefully by "overseer" it just means he delegates that task to a small team of accountants.
> 
> ...



You pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding what they "think" their role should be: lead cheerleader.  For a state that loves to regulate other stupid things you'd think that money and finance would be an important area to at least look at.  But then again I guess not in "this case".  

FWIW if you're bored take a look at the staggering number of embezzlement cases and other financial crimes that occur in Vermont.  They seem to be reported almost weekly.  Lots of town clerks, administrators, and others who are stealing money and the state does not seem to care.  But if you're thinking of building a home or any kind of building you have inches of paperwork to get through.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

A follow up story has been posted at VTDigger: http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/29/ethics-jay-peak-deal-scrutiny/

My take: This is a complete spin job.  The narrative is that this was a favor to the investors because they are "guaranteed" to be paid back - which was not possible without this change.

If I am reading the article correctly, here is what really happened: 
Quiros "bought out" the investors.  Sounds good, right?  Not so fast.  It would appear that the investors were "bought" out by Quiros taking over the company and its assets in exchange for giving the investors an IOU.  Oh, and by the way, he made that IOU unsecured at first.  So his "favor" to the investors was to take ownership of the assets for himself, strip the investors of their ownership, and give them in return an unenforceable promise to be paid back.  Quiros says that the great thing about this deal for the investors is that they are now "guaranteed" to be paid back.  I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how they are guaranteed to get their money back if they have an unsecured loan or an inadequately secured loan.

It's clear from the article that Jay was having problems finding new investors based on their failure to pay back the original investors  This scheme seems to have been designed to address that problem.  I suppose if the details never became public it might have still worked.

So at the end of the day Quiros now owns the hotel, the actual investors are stripped of their ownership, and Quiros may or may not deliver on his promise to pay for what he received.  Who is the fool now?


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 30, 2014)

I dont understand why there seems to be this expectation that the VT eb-5 office is charged with overseeing the financial returns of the foreign investors.  The program explicitly requires that there be no guaranteed ROI.  Whether the investment turns out to be good or not, is not the responsibility of the govt.  It is a private investment.  The eb-5 office oversees that the requirements of the program are being met, i.e. that the foreign money is from legal sources, that the foreigners are otherwise eligible for the visas and that the investment created the local jobs envisioned.  Whats happening at Jay will likely hurt their ability to entice future capital investment but that isnt the Vt councils responsibility.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

HowieT2 said:


> I dont understand why there seems to be this expectation that the VT eb-5 office is charged with overseeing the financial returns of the foreign investors.  The program explicitly requires that there be no guaranteed ROI.  Whether the investment turns out to be good or not, is not the responsibility of the govt.  It is a private investment.  The eb-5 office oversees that the requirements of the program are being met, i.e. that the foreign money is from legal sources, that the foreigners are otherwise eligible for the visas and that the investment created the local jobs envisioned.  Whats happening at Jay will likely hurt their ability to entice future capital investment but that isnt the Vt councils responsibility.



The concern is not that the VT EB-5 Office "is charged with overseeing the financial returns of foreign investors."  The issue is if the funds are being properly used and how they are being managed by JPR.  It's no different than a publicly traded company reporting to the SEC and its investors as to the financial wellbeing of the company.  That's the concern here.  

And yes the office does help to ensure that the projects meet the EB-5 investment qualifications.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

From that latest article:



> Quiros bought out their equity stakes, he said, thereby ending their limited partnership in the firm. The transaction effectively meant they were no longer EB-5 investors, Quiros said, which in turn freed him up to guarantee repayment. Such a guarantee would not have been permissible within the program’s strict confines, he said.
> 
> “We took something that was not guaranteed and made it guaranteed,” Quiros said in an interview Sunday. “How can you possibly call that wrong?”



Huh?  :blink:

And this was my concern as well:



> Turning an equity investment into a loan is a big deal, according to Ronnie Fieldstone, a securities lawyer who served on the best practices committee of the Association to Invest in the USA, an EB-5 trade group of which Stenger is a board member. Fieldstone is not familiar with the details of the Tram Haus arrangement; he spoke broadly about EB-5 investments in general.
> 
> “But there’s nothing inappropriate about having that right, as long as you tell people about it,” Fieldstone said.



And:



> Quiros said the decision to execute the investors’ exit strategy in August 2013 was prompted partly by some investors who had asked for it, and also by an approaching promotional trip to recruit investors for pending EB-5 projects — namely, the AnC Bio biotech research and manufacturing facility in Newport, and buildout of Q Burke Mountain ski resort in Burke.
> 
> He wanted Stenger and Jay Peak representatives, as well as Gov. Peter Shumlin and other state officials, to be able to say on a trip to Asia that his first batch of investors were being paid back.



My understanding was that the latest deal pushes OUT the repayment to 2023.  So the payment has still NOT been completed.  It may be underway.....



> “It shows the world of EB-5 that I’m giving money back to investors,” Quiros said. “OK, over time, but at least now you know you’re going to get your money back.”



Yeah...over time is right!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

And I've never known someone like Pat Moulton who held pretty much every state professional job and bounces around the state.  Her performance I think is meh at best.  This comment is pretty much BS:



> Pat Moulton, Shumlin’s newly appointed secretary of Commerce, said Monday her staff will take the Tram Haus situation into consideration as it looks at new memoranda of understanding with future EB-5 projects. “Yes, we would expect a higher level of communication,” Moulton said. “It’s a good business practice, whether it’s required or not.” The regional center is rigorous in its oversight of all projects, Moulton said, but the issue of the transaction itself — converting an investment to a loan — is between Jay Peak and investors alone. It’s not an agreement to which the state’s regional center is a party.



And this is a good point...hopefully this was a stupid mistake and is nothing more.....



> But news of dissatisfaction among some investors, Poore said, “does cause us to pause.”


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

It was much ballyhooed that Vermont's EB-5 center was the only state sponsored center.  That was supposed to be a good thing.  We are now seeing the ugly side of this arrangement.  It stands to reason that a state sponsored EB-5 center would be more inclined to protect local developers than foreign investors who live out of state.  I'm not saying that they did anything wrong.  I'm just saying that state government has its own priorities.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> _*Quiros said. “OK, over time, but at least now you know you’re going to get your money back.”*_
> 
> Yeah...over time is right!



You missed a part.  Quiros said that they know they will get their money back.  Can someone explain to me how they know this?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It was much ballyhooed that Vermont's EB-5 center was the only state sponsored center.  That was supposed to be a good thing.  We are now seeing the ugly side of this arrangement.  It stands to reason that a state sponsored EB-5 center would be more inclined to protect local developers than foreign investors who live out of state.  I'm not saying that they did anything wrong.  I'm just saying that state government has its own priorities.



My concern is that they don't have the resources to do the whole job and/or just don't seem to understand what their role should be.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You missed a part.  Quiros said that they know they will get their money back.  Can someone explain to me how they know this?



No, I saw that as well.  There is no "guarantee" in any investment.  If there is that raises huge red flags....out of fear that Mr. Ponzi might be involved:







Off-topic: Vermont Securities Officials just prosecuted and jailed two guys (a local filmmaker and another business guy) for a huge Ponzi scheme that ran from 1998-2008 or so.  Pretty sad.  

And other off-topic comment: my first job out of college was in the building in Boston where Mr. Ponzi had his offices back in the day.  They had a historic marker indicating such.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2014)

> *Quiros said the decision to execute the investors’ exit strategy in  August 2013 was prompted partly by some investors who had asked for it,  and also by an approaching promotional trip to recruit investors for  pending EB-5 projects* — namely, the AnC Bio biotech research and  manufacturing facility in Newport, and buildout of Q Burke Mountain ski  resort in Burke.
> 
> *He wanted Stenger and Jay Peak representatives, as well as Gov. Peter  Shumlin and other state officials, to be able to say on a trip to Asia  that his first batch of investors were being paid back*.



ROTFLMAO

Yup.  Just as I suspected.   How freaking unbelievably shady.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> ROTFLMAO
> 
> Yup.  Just as I suspected.   How freaking unbelievably shady.



Yes, "some investors" asked to be paid back in 2023 instead of 2013.  Makes sense.  :roll:


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

_Investor_: You told me that I could cash out by selling, through a real estate agent, a fractional ownership interest in a Tramhouse Lodge unit.  Why hasn't that happened?
_Quiros_: Well... there would have been no guarantee that you could find a purchaser.  Have you seen how rough the real estate market is?  I've decided to change things.  You are now guaranteed to get your money back!
_Investor_: How?
_Quiros_: Take this IOU.  That's how.
_Investor_: How is this a guarantee?
_Quiros_: Because it's 200% ethical!  Now get out of my office.  I've got a Chinese investor who is interested in AnC Bio on hold who needs to be told that you are now getting your investment back.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> _Investor_: You told me that I could cash out by selling, through a real estate agent, a fractional ownership interest in a Tramhouse Lodge unit.  Why hasn't that happened?
> _Quiros_: Well... there would have been no guarantee that you could find a purchaser.  Have you seen how rough the real estate market is?  I've decided to change things.  You are now guaranteed to get your money back!
> _Investor_: How?
> _Quiros_: Take this IOU.  That's how.
> ...



The appropriate term is QIOU.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *It was much ballyhooed that Vermont's EB-5 center was the only state sponsored center.  That was supposed to be a good thing.*  We are now seeing the ugly side of this arrangement.  It stands to reason that a state sponsored EB-5 center would be more inclined to protect local developers than foreign investors who live out of state.  I'm not saying that they did anything wrong.  I'm just saying that state government has its own priorities.



It's a terrible idea!   Complete conflict of interest.

Not only that, but with the for-profit arrangement there's skin-in-the-game and an incentive to make sure things operate as they should.  It's no guarantee there wont be monkey-games, but it's a strong safeguard.  With the government in control of this it directly injected politics, not to mention, an incentive to "grab $500,000 bills" without particular care to the eventual true success of the venture.

Worse?   I practically guarantee you the State of Vermont does not have the quality individuals and the desire necessary to rip apart Jay Peak's financials and do the financial detective work into every invoice, every wire, every relationship, and every PO that the for-profit world does routinely. 

  That's a BIG part of how & why Bernie Madoff got away with what he did, because the dolts at the SEC were generally poorly paid (relative to their for-profit counterparts), unqualified, under-educated, and literally never worked a day on Wall Street in their life.  They had absolutely zero chance against Madoff's people, even when a hedge fund genius delivered Madoff's head to the SEC on a silver platter......TWICE!  They had no idea how to interpret the data.   Madoff's people versus $65,000 per year SEC analysts was akin to Godzilla vs. Bambi.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

The Jeezum Crow promoter just posted 25 photos of the event to the Jeezum Crow facebook page.  Out of 25 photos posted, all but three were stage shots.  The three crowd shots they posted are these:




And for those of you who think that this was just a daytime problem...


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The Jeezum Crow promoter just posted 25 photos of the event to the Jeezum Crow facebook page.  Out of 25 photos posted, all but three were stage shots.  The three crowd shots they posted are these:
> View attachment 13046
> View attachment 13047
> View attachment 13048



Obviously the guaranteed turnout will be there next year.......or at least by 2023.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

All schadenfreude aside, the saddest part of this tale is its impact on the ski industry as a whole.  Projects like the Balsams resort may very well be crippled by Jay Peak's example.  Several other ski resorts were trying to get EB-5 programs up and running.  While the merits of EB-5 money is a matter of debate, it's always nice to see infrastructure improvements to ski areas - and perhaps even the revival of a closed ski area.  Thanks to Mr. Stenger and Mr. Quiros, that may be much less likely to happen now.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 30, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> All schadenfreude aside, the saddest part of this tale is its impact on the ski industry as a whole.  Projects like the Balsams resort may very well be crippled by Jay Peak's example.  Several other ski resorts were trying to get EB-5 programs up and running.  While the merits of EB-5 money is a matter of debate, it's always nice to see infrastructure improvements to ski areas - and perhaps even the revival of a closed ski area.  Thanks to Mr. Stenger and Mr. Quiros, that may be much less likely to happen now.



That may be so, but the investors should have been aware of the risks of the investment going in if they had done any kind of due diligence.  I mean as just a casual observer with no money on the line, I was baffled that they were putting that kind of money into Jay.  I understand "if you build it, they will come" but there has to be some connection to reality and 250M is a lot of money.


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## Steve@jpr (Jul 30, 2014)

*Schadenfreude Of The Devil*

While I can't comment so much on the wherefore/why of EB-5 manifestations, (some days it's all I can do to push past P in the old alphabet) I can shine some light on the festival--some facts that you can take or leave.  We sold just under 2000 tickets to the two day event (some 1 day some 2).  Of the 2, Saturday was a bit better attended and, even then, the main acts saw more folks fill in (many were in the lots prior to those folks coming in.) as the night(s) moved on.  Stateside Hotel (and it's 80-ish rooms) were sold out both Friday and Saturday (we buried tickets into the rooms so all of them held concert goers).  Hotel Jay and its 176 rooms were 80% occ thanks to three weddings (mostly) and Tram Haus Lodge (and its 57 rooms) was about 70% full due to 1 wedding, 2 small conferences and general waterpark goers.  The Golf and Mtn Cottages were roughly 50% occ with concert goers and general vacationers.  All in, the weekend was at 74% occ which, although only one weekend, is an awfully big win.  There was no 'promoter' of the event as rumor may suggest; JP fronted the costs for everything and, post pro forma which is still being forma'd, my guess is a mid-5 digit profit which, although smallish when compared to, say, 6 digits, is not so bad for a first time music event in the middle of, as some would say, nowhere.  All of this to say that while it's easy to look at a fraction of a fraction of a photograph and lay enough claim to comment, the broader view is, generally, more revealing.  Hopefully some of you made it to the event--it was fun.  Lyle Lovett 9and his large band are up on Friday August 15th and while VIP tickets are about gone, there are great seats available.



VTKilarney said:


> The Jeezum Crow promoter just posted 25 photos of the event to the Jeezum Crow facebook page.  Out of 25 photos posted, all but three were stage shots.  The three crowd shots they posted are these:
> View attachment 13046
> View attachment 13047
> View attachment 13048
> ...


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

For the record, the photos posted here were posted in their entirety.  74% occupancy on Saturday night is indeed good news.  Is it safe to assume that's the highest occupancy rate of any night so far this summer?


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## Steve@jpr (Jul 30, 2014)

Sorry, not sure what you mean by 'in their entirety.'  I'm only saying that the pictures you posted were from a guest (who commandeered the JC logo), some of which were before the show started or in between sets (the last one).  Looking at those pics, I can definitely see how it looked like a ghost town.  Yes, 74% is the high water mark thus far though we have a few weekends coming up with major hockey camps and tournaments, combined with both a 4 and 5 wedding weekend, that will prob push past 80; it's getting that on a more regular basis that's the trick.



VTKilarney said:


> For the record, the photos posted here were posted in their entirety.  74% occupancy on Saturday night is indeed good news.  Is it safe to assume that's the highest occupancy rate of any night so far this summer?


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

I just meant to clarify that I had not cropped any of them.  That could have been inferred from your prior post.


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## Steve@jpr (Jul 30, 2014)

I see that.  Sorry, I didn't mean that.


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## mbedle (Jul 30, 2014)

I would guess that is because Rapid USA Visas, Inc. is a scam or at the least, making money off of people's backs trying to work with the EB-5 program. It is funny that they claimed it no longer had confidence in Jay Peak's financials, when its website (riddled with grammar and spelling errors) states that they are not authorized to provide investment advice. Just saying that I wouldn't take anything they say to serious. Hell, the EB5vermont.com website is not longer active. 




BenedictGomez said:


> That's fine.  Quarterly reviews are standard.   Not inspecting the finances at all, however, which has been alleged, is not.
> 
> Assuming reviews are taking place, however, I do question whether the analysis of Jay Peak's financials (assuming they took place) is full & competent.  I just took approximately 25 seconds to look up "James Candido's" profile on LindeIn, and his undergraduate is in Political Science and Psychology, later an MBA.  That is not the type of background you want to see for the person in charge of leading a financial review if he is indeed the "_principal overseer", _as what you linked states.  Hopefully by "overseer" it just means he delegates that task to a small team of accountants.
> 
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

Good to see Steve chiming in....don't be a stranger and take good care of Burke for us!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

Yes!  Burke update please!!!!!!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

Perhaps not coincidentally, a couple of new crowd shots were just posted to the Jeezum Crow Facebook fan page.


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## AdironRider (Jul 30, 2014)

mbedle said:


> I would guess that is because Rapid USA Visas, Inc. is a scam or at the least, making money off of people's backs trying to work with the EB-5 program. It is funny that they claimed it no longer had confidence in Jay Peak's financials, when its website (riddled with grammar and spelling errors) states that they are not authorized to provide investment advice. Just saying that I wouldn't take anything they say to serious. Hell, the EB5vermont.com website is not longer active.




Of the 7 different controllers and CFO's I've worked under before becoming one myself only two had business or finance undergrads. To get a CPA you have to get an MBA or a Masters in Acct, where you learn pretty much everything of importance anyways.

Dont be that old guy, this isnt the 50's where your major automatically was your career. 

That being said, I completely agree with you that whoever is running this show does not know what he's doing. No argument there.

EDIT: this is directed to Benedict, quoted the wrong guy.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2014)

Bill Stenger was on Mark Johnson's show on WDEV today.  You can listen to it here:

http://markjohnsonshow.podbean.com/e/73014-bill-stenger-jay-peak/


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## WWF-VT (Jul 30, 2014)

What’s the big deal here ?  It looks like there is only an issue with $17.5 million of the $312 million in EB-5 investments and 20 disgruntled investors.  Stenger and Quiros seem like honest and ethical businessmen and it’s just a matter of time before Intrawest,  Boyne or some other company comes in and buys Jay Peak for billions of dollars.


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## AdironRider (Jul 30, 2014)

Is that sarcasm? I'm hoping yes. 

But your end game is spot on, Jay Peak will be sold, most likely through bankruptcy or very close to it, ala ASC. I would guess within the next five years.


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## xlr8r (Jul 30, 2014)

Okay time to rant.

This could be seen coming from at least 4 years ago.  Its obvious to me at least that you don't get 100's of millions of dollars for free.  There has got to be consequences, the math just doesn't add up.  

So they have spent over 200 million dollars of EB5 investor money on projects that will not be able to pay for themselves.  If these Hotels, Ice rink, and Waterpark were making money, they would either be able to spend their profits and invest in the mountain and skiing infrastructure, or they could start paying back their investors.  But neither of which has happened.  Besides the Taxi quad chair, it seems like they have not spent much money at all on the mountain.  They have been talking about the west bowl expansion for 20+ years now, and the Bonaventure 6 pack for over 5 years, and neither has happened, or will happen soon.  This shows they don't have any money invest in their primary product, the skiing.  

The troubling thing is that they must have known about these problems for a couple years now.  Instead of taking a break from using EB5 money, and taking some time to figure out their return on investment.  They instead tried to ramp up EB5 projects across the board, and have now gotten Newport and Burke involved with this mess.  Its as if they could see their window closing very soon. So they have ramped up construction to get as much built as soon as possible because they knew people were about to figure out the problems with all this.

About the job aspect of the EB5 money,  the math on this also doesn't make sense.  If each 500 thousand is supposed to create 10 full time jobs.  Than there should be thousands upon thousands of full time jobs created by now.  Even the article states that the combined Hotel Jay, Waterpark, Ice arena and Penthouse created 2800 jobs.  Really I don't believe that even if the majority of them are indirectly related to the resort.  Also it states that the Stateside hotel and lodge created 1340 jobs.  Again now way do I believe that.  It doesn't add up.  And where are they getting all this money to pay these thousands of new full time employees?

The one thing I can't seem to figure out is how did Stenger and Q guy Sr. think this was going to end up in the first place.  Did they really think all these projects being built in such a short time frame would be successful enough to repay their investors  Or were they doing it as a scam from the start.  The fact remains is that Stenger and Q guy cannot be trusted, Stenger is Liar , and they have been scamming people for years over this mess.   I am sad it took so long for everyone else to realize it.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Bill Stenger was on Mark Johnson's show on WDEV today.  You can listen to it here:
> 
> http://markjohnsonshow.podbean.com/e/73014-bill-stenger-jay-peak/



No surprises here.  Stenger's talking points:
1) He is sticking to the narrative that the investors are now "guaranteed" to be paid back thanks to the change that was made.
2) He is insisting that the investors are upset because of poor communication.  He brushed aside any idea that the investors are upset at the substantive changes.
3) If Jay can't repay the $17.5 million to the original investors, they can get financing to do so.
4) The delay in informing investors of the change was largely the result of it taking several months to prepare documents that were to be presented to the investors.
5) The change was not done to court new investors.  
6) One awkward moment: Right after waxing poetic about how transparent Jay Peak is with its financial matters, Stenger was asked what his financial arrangement is with his partner.  (Specifically, what does "equal partners" mean from a financial perspective.)  He fumbled somewhat before eventually saying that this was "private."

Short version: This was yet another stop on the Stenger damage control whistlestop tour that began when Pomerleau went public.  Stenger was doing his best "aw shucks" act.  His speech boiled down to this: "Nothing to see here.  We are growing and the future is bright."  In other words, the ends justify the means.

One thing that was troubling is that Stenger repeatedly stressed that Jay is under no legal obligation to pay back its EB-5 investors.  Methinks he is planting a seed for the inevitable.  

One very interesting fact he disclosed is that less than 25% of investors in their program are Chinese.  This is in stark contrast with the overall numbers - and I wonder why.  To see why this was a somewhat shocking revelation, just take a look at this chart:



Keep in mind that this problem involves just the first investors.  The pressure is going to get MUCH worse for Jay as more and more investors are going to be demanding a plan for a return on their investment and Jay's capacity to do so is going to be exposed.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 31, 2014)

Another VT Digger article recapping Stenger's interview with Mark Johnson. 
http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/31/mark...nt-creation-lag-communication-eb-5-investors/

I'm surprised that this is not getting much traction in the media.  The Caledonian Record is reprinting the VT Digger articles in their entirety, but I haven't seen too much else - and certainly nothing that could be called investigatory journalism.  The investors are clearly not wanting to be named, which may be a factor.


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## bobbutts (Jul 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Another VT Digger article recapping Stenger's interview with Mark Johnson.
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/31/mark...nt-creation-lag-communication-eb-5-investors/
> 
> I'm surprised that this is not getting much traction in the media.  The Caledonian Record is reprinting the VT Digger articles in their entirety, but I haven't seen too much else - and certainly nothing that could be called investigatory journalism.  The investors are clearly not wanted to be named, which be a factor.


People are more interested in violent crime and probably even petty crime.  This type of stuff is far too confusing.
We had our entire economy crashed by frauds in the finance sector and that basically blow over.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2014)

mbedle said:


> I would guess that is because Rapid USA Visas, Inc. is a scam or at the least, making money off of people's backs trying to work with the EB-5 program.* It is funny that they claimed it no longer had confidence in Jay Peak's financials, when its website* (riddled with grammar and spelling errors) *states that they are not authorized to provide investment advice. Just saying that I wouldn't take anything they say to serious.*



That's of no consequence, they're not allowed to give investment advice.  To the best of my knowledge, none of them are overseen by the SEC.



AdironRider said:


> Of the 7 different controllers and CFO's I've worked under before becoming one myself only two had business or finance undergrads. *To get a CPA you have to get an MBA or a Masters in Acct, where you learn pretty much everything of importance *anyways. *Dont be that old guy, this isnt the 50's where your major automatically was your career. *
> 
> *That being said, I completely agree with you that whoever is running this show does not know what he's doing. No argument there.*
> 
> EDIT: this is directed to Benedict, quoted the wrong guy.



Not really sure what your point is then if you agree with me.  He doesn't have a CPA either, isn't an accountant, and frankly, an MBA alone is not adequate for the work I'm referring to.  I have an MBA too, and I know I really shouldn't be in charge of the type in-depth investigation this would require.  Working on the team of investigators?  Sure.  Being in charge?  No.   

And frankly, I'm the one using the word, "team", on an assumption, but from what we've seen, the public statements have been, _"I've looked at"_ sort of statements (i.e. one guy), which, if true, is also alarming.  

VTDIGGER needs to ask:

1) Precisely WHO (singular or plural) has reviewed the financials?
2) WHEN and how often has this review(s) occurred (give dates)?
3) Did the review ONLY refer to the first $17.5M or the full $300M+?
4) Repeat question #2 for the response to question #3
5) Don't allow wiggle room Bill Clinton responses

Someone really needs to pin Jay Peak, AND the State of Vermont's EB-5 board (who I trust 0%) down on this ASAP.  I wasn't familiar with "VTDIGGER" before this, but they seem like pretty competent reporters, so I'm pretty shocked they've gone down this road for so long without asking the above, which frankly, the biggest potential part of the story in my mind.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Another VT Digger article recapping Stenger's interview with Mark Johnson.
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/31/mark...nt-creation-lag-communication-eb-5-investors/
> 
> I'm surprised that this is not getting much traction in the media.  The Caledonian Record is reprinting the VT Digger articles in their entirety, but I haven't seen too much else - and certainly nothing that could be called investigatory journalism.  The investors are clearly not wanting to be named, which may be a factor.



You have too much faith/confidence in the Cal Rec. No offense to them, but over the past few years they have let some good staff go and don't really have the resources (or motivation) to do this kind of digging.  

I'm surprised that WCAX has not done more.  

As to the BFP, they've really downsized.  I've stopped reading them because their reporting really started having a political bias.  

Rutland Herald/Times Argus: good papers, but also have cut their staff.  They also focus on I-89 south.  

VT Digger has recruited the good journalists and provides good content IMHO.  They also have been reviewing the EB-5 projects all along.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *One very interesting fact he disclosed is that less than 25% of investors in their program are Chinese.  This is in stark contrast with the overall numbers - and I wonder why.  To see why this was a somewhat shocking revelation, just take a look at this chart:*
> View attachment 13054



I find that hard to believe, maybe he mi-spoke or maybe he was only speaking of those first 35 investors?

Put it this way, (also via a 20 second Linkedin search) one of the highest people at the Vermont EB-5 board (link below) is named Becky *Fu* who is the _"Foreign Investment Specialist"_.  

  Ms. Fu is Chinese, a lawyer certified in the Chinese Bar, went to Guangdong University in Guangdong, China, is fluent in both Chinese and Cantonese, and went on the aforementioned Jay Peak overseas trip to China late last year (pictured with Stenger in the link below).

I'm sure that's all just a big coincidence though and Chinese investors aren't targeted.  I mean, I know when I lived up in Vermont I knew TONS of native Chinese people up there, most of whom had government jobs.   

Oh.....wait.....no, I didn't.

http://accd.vermont.gov/business/relocate_expand/eb5


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the BFP, they've really downsized.  *I've stopped reading them because their reporting really started having a political bias.   *



Started?   

I personally cannot recall a time when it didn't feel like I was reading press releases from the DNC.  Whatever issue is currently promoted as the hot-topic on MSNBC or Huffington Post, will surely soon be coming to the BFP.



thetrailboss said:


> *VT Digger has recruited the good journalists and provides good content IMHO.*  They also have been reviewing the EB-5 projects all along.



From the little I've read, I have to agree.  Pretty impressive groundwork so far, and I'd definitely be a regular reader if I still lived in Vermont.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Started?
> 
> I personally cannot recall a time when it didn't feel like I was reading press releases from the DNC.  Whatever issue is currently promoted as the hot-topic on MSNBC or Huffington Post, will surely soon be coming to the BFP.



OK, maybe I was being too generous.....there was a time where I felt as if they did report on (local) issues with some good analysis.  Lately it has been pretty much whatever one side thinks with no real pushback or questioning.  




> From the little I've read, I have to agree.  Pretty impressive groundwork so far, and I'd definitely be a regular reader if I still lived in Vermont.



Agreed.


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 5, 2014)

Fortune magazine has a cover story "Citizenship for Sale" that's all about the EB-5 program.  Jay Peak is listed as one of the notable projects that have been funded via the visa program:

http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/five-by-eb-5/


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 5, 2014)

I don't understand why the investors expect a full return given that they get the citizenship.  Surely, there is a value in the citizenship.  They are giving up some expectation in the investment in order to gain the value of the citizenship.  These investments are risky.  They are so risky that conventional financing is not available.  So, for citizenship, they make highly risky investment with the return diminished by the value of the citizenship.


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 5, 2014)

DoublePlanker said:


> I don't understand why the investors expect a full return given that they get the citizenship.  Surely, there is a value in the citizenship.  They are giving up some expectation in the investment in order to gain the value of the citizenship.  These investments are risky.  They are so risky that conventional financing is not available.  So, for citizenship, they make highly risky investment with the return diminished by the value of the citizenship.




I'm with you on this.  However, it appears it was not exactly presented as is.  Nonetheless, it should be fairly obvious to anyone remotely knowledgeable about the ski industry and northern Vermont, that only morons would be expecting all of their money back after 5 years. The jobs created have to be permanent.  That means that the investments have to minimally cover the operating costs of the built infrastructures, and, hopefully generate profits from which the EB5 investors can see some of their money back.  If the profits are not there, there is no way they can get their money back AND keep their visas.  If I was an investor, my biggest fear would be to lose my money and not get my visa.   

From all I hear and see, JPR seems to be doing OK but I don't think money is overflowing.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2014)

DoublePlanker said:


> I don't understand why the investors expect a full return given that they get the citizenship.  Surely, there is a value in the citizenship.  They are giving up some expectation in the investment in order to gain the value of the citizenship.  These investments are risky.  They are so risky that conventional financing is not available.  So, for citizenship, they make highly risky investment with the return diminished by the value of the citizenship.


Here is why they expect a full return:
1) There is quite a bit of competition for EB-5 projects.  Investors can now cherry pick the investments that they perceive to carry the least amount of risk.
2) Jay Peak appears to have led the investors to believe that they would own a piece of real estate (or a fractional share thereof) that they could sell on the open market.  If an investor was induced with this representation, it stands to reason that they assumed that they could sell this asset and get something back.

This isn't charity.  Just because the investment is risky does not mean that people will just sit by idly if they feel that they have been screwed over.  Whether or not they have is certainly debatable - but the point is that rich people like to keep their money if at all possible.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *  Jay Peak appears to have led the investors to believe that they would own a piece of real estate*



Which also makes sense that they would go for Chinese investors, because demographically & culturally, the Chinese are heavy real estate investors.  

Also, the timing makes sense as the domestic Chinese real estate market has been believed to be way overvalued for some time now (bubble fears), and they've been investing heavily in California, Nevada, British Columbia / Vancouver, and even Australia.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> From all I hear and see, JPR seems to be doing OK but I don't think money is overflowing.



That's pretty much my gut feeling.  My hunch is that they are doing much better in the winter thanks to EB-5, but that they have yet to figure out how to break even during the rest of the year.  I highly doubt that they have sufficient profits to pay back $300 million in a reasonable period of time - if ever.    

What I've never really understood is how the multiple corporations (one for each EB-5 project) plays into the overall financial picture.  We keep talking about Jay as a single entity, but in reality it is now a conglomeration of many different LLCs.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *What I've never really understood is how the multiple corporations (one for each EB-5 project) plays into the overall financial picture.* *We keep talking about Jay as a single entity, but in reality it is now a conglomeration of many different LLCs*.



Decrease risk/liability.


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## AdironRider (Aug 5, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Decrease risk/liability.



This. 

Just like how an LLC protects a sole proprietor, an LLC can be used to protect parent companies and the like as well. 

Also, this isn't really funny business, I would do it as well if I owned something that large.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Decrease risk/liability.


I knew that, for sure.  I just am not sure if Jay is keeping solid walls around these companies, or are the profitable ones propping up the non-profitable ones?


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## VTKilarney (Aug 5, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Also, this isn't really funny business, I would do it as well if I owned something that large.


I guess I wasn't clear.  I know WHY they did it (and agree they should have), I just don't know how the money is flowing knowing that they have all of these LLCs up there.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I guess I wasn't clear.  I know WHY they did it (and agree they should have), I just don't know how the money is flowing knowing that they have all of these LLCs up there.



You would most likely need some accounting experience to make rhyme or reason of it. 

Quick thought/question - Is Jay still considered privately held even with EB-5 investment?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> You would most likely need some accounting experience to make rhyme or reason of it.
> 
> Quick thought/question - Is Jay still considered privately held even with EB-5 investment?



I'd say yes.  They are dealing with private placement memos, etc.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I guess I wasn't clear.  I know WHY they did it (and agree they should have),* I just don't know how the money is flowing knowing that they have all of these LLCs up there.*



Another great question for VTDIGGER to pose --> How often have financial reviews taken place *per individual entity*, and that schedule per entity?   Still total non-clarity here between "none" and "all the time".

And of course, WTH comprises a "financial review" in their eyes.

A question best posed to the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center  given it's a public entity and (theoretically) must disclose that.  I'd start asking some REALLY tough questions at this point and pin them.    There's enough smoke for me to suspect fire here.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 6, 2014)

I wonder if the documents filed with the regional center would fall under the public records act.   My hunch is that they would be exempt under this exemption: 
a tax return and related documents, correspondence and certain types of substantiating forms which include the same type of information as in the tax return itself filed with or maintained by the Vermont Department of Taxes or submitted by a person to any public agency in connection with agency business;


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## WWF-VT (Aug 6, 2014)

From the article in Fortune:

_The EB-5 program isn’t overseen by a financial regulator but by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), part of the Department of Homeland Security. Accustomed to processing visas and conducting immigrant background checks, USCIS is ill-equipped to review business plans, job- creation studies, and securities offerings. 
__Like banks and Wall Street firms, regional centers sell securities and handle millions. Yet there are no rules on who can own or run a center, and no audit requirements. A regional center doesn’t have to report publicly on its performance, identify its principals, or disclose any financial, legal, or regulatory problems they have encountered.
_
_Creation of a center requires the submission of economic studies and an array of other paperwork to USCIS. _


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 6, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> This.
> 
> Just like how an LLC protects a sole proprietor, an LLC can be used to protect parent companies and the like as well.
> 
> Also, this isn't really funny business, I would do it as well if I owned something that large.



Isn't this common practice for corporations to use a separate LLC for each and every real estate holding?   I know Walmart does that.  The risk and liability is contained to the LLC.  It seems like smart business.


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## AdironRider (Aug 6, 2014)

DoublePlanker said:


> Isn't this common practice for corporations to use a separate LLC for each and every real estate holding?   I know Walmart does that.  The risk and liability is contained to the LLC.  It seems like smart business.



It can go even further than that. It's not uncommon for a hotel to be a couple different llcs. One for f&b, one for rooms, etc.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2014)

Hmmm....interesting.

http://www.wcax.com/story/26236286/jay-peak-paying-back-eb-5-investors-ahead-of-schedule


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2014)

> *Jay Peak says its expansion project is so successful, it's paying investors back extra ahead of schedule.*
> 
> *The  news comes shortly after some investors went public, complaining they  were losing confidence that they would be repaid.* But now resort  president Bill Stenger tells WCAX News that $10,000 checks will be paid  out this year.
> 
> ...



Ummmmm.......yeah...... somebody please investigate the **** out of this already please.


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## LONGBOARDR (Aug 9, 2014)

Hate to be negative but:
I wish Jaypeak would stop stating that poor communication was to blame for this fiasco.
It is pretty apparent they wanted out of the original agreement, but did not want this disclosed before a big trip for fundraising.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Hate to be negative but:
> I wish Jaypeak would stop stating that poor communication was to blame for this fiasco.
> It is pretty apparent they wanted out of the original agreement, but did not want this disclosed before a big trip for fundraising.



+1. It was to prevent more damage. 


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## Masskier (Aug 9, 2014)

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Jay Peak Resort Accelerates Investor Payments  *from the cal record

Interesting read.  This article seems to answer a lot of questions that has been discussed here.

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=145&ArticleID=115958&TM=38213.61

a couple quotes from the article;

[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"At  the end of the day, we missed the chance to showcase the fact that we  are one of only a handful of EB-5 centers to have an active payment  strategy in place to return 100 percent of investor funds," Stenger  said.

[/FONT][/FONT]**[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT][/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT][/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif] [/FONT][/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif][FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*"That's out of more than 500 in this country. It's a great story for  Jay Peak; a great story for Vermont, and great story for the EB-5  initiative."

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"Although  the partnership agreement states it is solely up to the General Partner  (Jay Peak Management Inc) to decide if and when it's appropriate to  redeem the partnership and begin returning (investor) funds, we realize  the manner in which the redemption was communicated did not measure up  to the standards by which we conduct every other aspect of our  business."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"While  EB-5 investments are required to be at risk and cannot be guaranteed,  as part of the project, the investing group is presented with potential  exit strategies -- methods by which the investors could be made whole  with the return of their $500,000 if the business goes as planned and  market and other conditions permit, Jay Peak officials said. The general  partner is solely responsible for determining when those conditions  present themselves.[/FONT]"
*
[/FONT][/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]


[/FONT]*


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2014)

Masskier said:


> This article seems to answer a lot of questions that has been discussed here.
> *
> *



Unless I'm missing something, I dont see any new information in the bit you posted.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 9, 2014)

This guy gets what's going on at Jay!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> This guy gets what's going on at Jay!



Mr Ponzi is back I see....




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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

I wonder if these $10k payments include a litigation release...


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

Masskier said:


> [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]*Jay Peak Resort Accelerates Investor Payments  *from the cal record
> 
> Interesting read.  This article seems to answer a lot of questions that has been discussed here.
> 
> ...



The article is behind a paywall.  Maybe it will be up on VTDigger in a day or so.  From what it looks like it is a rehash of the WCAX article I posted that just announced that the Tram Haus investors are getting $10k payments now.  That's only 2% of their investment and it's coming after a huge PR disaster a couple weeks ago.  I think that the hype is meant to try to put others at ease.  They won't be able to say that 100% are paid back until it happens.  I think that this is called damage control.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> * I think that this is called damage control.*



Absolutely, but it's slightly more than that.

It's, _"lets try to make this story go away now"_ control.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2014)

So they weren't going to pay back extra money they could have afforded to pay until the sh*t hit the fan?  Nothing troublng here!  And why does the press let Stenger get away with saying "guaranteed" payback?  It's a loan now, thanks to Quiros.  Ask any bank if payback of a loan is guaranteed.  

On a positive note, Jay was quite busy today (8/9/14).  Busiest I've seen so far this summer.  Even busier than Jeezum Crow fest.  Seemed like more Canadians than normal.  Also at least one large wedding.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Unless I'm missing something, I dont see any new information in the bit you posted.


You didn't miss anything at all.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2014)

Masskier said:


> "That's out of more than 500 in this country. It's a great story for  Jay Peak; a great story for Vermont, and great story for the EB-5  initiative."


And out of those 500 EB-5 projects how many were completed prior to the Tramhaus Lodge?  How many have been completed at all?  This number is disingenuous at best.  



Masskier said:


> "Although  the partnership agreement states it is solely up to the General Partner  (Jay Peak Management Inc) to decide if and when it's appropriate to redeem the partnership and begin returning (investor) funds, ..."





Masskier said:


> "The general  partner is solely responsible for determining when those conditions  present themselves."


Interesting that Stenger is really hammering home this narrative. Methinks he knows this is going to be very important in the future.  If things are going so well, why would Stenger make such a point of this?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Absolutely, but it's slightly more than that.
> 
> It's, _"lets try to make this story go away now"_ control.



As you know, I was on the Stenger Bandwagon in 2012 when they took over Burke.  I thought that he was doing a good job and had his ducks in a row.  I thought that they'd be good for Burke.  Their first season they promised an early opening and then delayed it quite a bit...yes, some was weather, but with the way they hyped the snowmaking improvements you'd thought it would not matter.  And then the Q show.  I can say that with Q it's WAY better that he keep a low profile.  They've already pissed off the locals enough at Burke to last for quite a while.  

The real thing that was a red flag was when Pomerleau not only bowed out, but went to WCAX to tell them about it.  For a guy who grew up in Newport and LOVES the town, the fact that he pulled out was huge; the tell-all was a warning I guess.  In hindsight we should have noticed a few other signs of things not going as well as hoped--the airport went from EB-5 to private funding and the window factory evaporated with no real explanation.  

But this situation does not make sense if you believe what they say.  On the other hand, if you believe that the revenue-side is lagging and that they need more time to hopefully get things going, then it makes sense.  A well-oiled machine, like Jay, doesn't just "malfunction" like Stenger said.  This was another quiet change made to try to adjust course and when it came out folks were pissed.  Like with Pomerleau's deal, Stenger showed that he just does not have a lot of cash lying around because it's all tied up with the development, etc.  There were 35 investors, so this peace offering is $350,000.  That's not even what ONE investor put up for the place and not a lot of money for a resort that is (theoretically) doing as much business as they claim.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Absolutely, but it's slightly more than that.
> 
> It's, _"lets try to make this story go away now"_ control.



So why the desperate play at damage control?  The Tramhaus Lodge investors are still going to be pissed off - and are locked in anyway.  

I can think of a couple of theories:
1) The Tramhaus Lodge investors are talking to potential investors.  I haven't seen any sign of this, but maybe there is a network out there that they have tapped into.
2) The Tramhaus Lodge investors had to give something up to get the extra money.  
3) Prospective investor interest, while obviously low, has now completely evaporated.

My suspicion is that it has more to do with #3.  It could be a play to try to save the AnC Bio project, or perhaps the Burke hotel.  Keep in mind that Stenger in a very recent "damage control" interview admitted that Burke was only 25% funded, and Burke's PR guy admitted that the hotel itself was not fully funded.  Stenger made no mention of AnC Bio's funding level in that interview, and you know if it was going well he would have been trumpeting that fact.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So why the desperate play at damage control?  The Tramhaus Lodge investors are still going to be pissed off - and are locked in anyway.
> 
> I can think of a couple of theories:
> 1) The Tramhaus Lodge investors are talking to potential investors.  I haven't seen any sign of this, but maybe there is a network out there that they have tapped into.
> ...



It's clearly to try to calm upset investors and to get some PR spin to keep the whole thing going.

Though we're talking about Jay here, I will say that the Hotel at Burke is concerning for me because the last thing Burke needs is a half-baked project that becomes a dead albatross around its neck.  They need not just enough money to build it, but build it RIGHT, run it RIGHT, and keep it going.  Is the facility going to have any amenities like a pool area (not Olympic sized)?

As to Burke, and as an "arm chair resort operator", I've never been able to determine if it was better for them to "build it and then they will come" or to get things going right before building it up.  In some ways I'd rather see them invest in better operations--snowmaking, grooming, customer service, etc. and get their skier days up rather than just dropping in a hotel and not really improving the ski product.  But I can see that they have hit a wall with the day tripper market and need some beds.  I just hope that they let someone who is in the ski business run the place instead of the Little General looking to "prove himself".


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Is the facility going to have any amenities like a pool area (not Olympic sized)?


I don't believe that the hotel will have a pool.  The pool was a separate project.  If it is indeed modeled after the Tramhaus Lodge it won't.  Of course the Tramhaus Lodge has the Pump House water park down a hallway.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't believe that the hotel will have a pool.  The pool was a separate project.  If it is indeed modeled after the Tramhaus Lodge it won't.  Of course the Tramhaus Lodge has the Pump House water park down a hallway.



Yeah I heard that they had a ridiculous idea of an indoor tennis facility and an Olympic sized pool and diving complex.  My reaction as "WTF?"  Like Boardguy said, we don't need that.  Have a nice place for guests and that should be fine.  The indoor bike park was a GOOD idea and made a lot of sense.  But that was back when they were integrated with KT.  We know what happened there....


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2014)

Remember when Stenger told Mark Johnson that the delay in informing investors of the dissolution of the partnership was because he hadn't finished preparing documents to provide to the investors?  According to this article, 9 months was apparently not enough time to get the documents done.
http://bartonchronicle.com/stenger-...mpaign=stenger-admits-investors-informed-late

Here is a great quote from the article:
_Asked if any of the investors had filed legal action over the decision to dissolve the partnership, Mr. Stenger said he saw no basis for a claim.

When Mr. Raymond [VT's Regional Center coordinator] was asked if he thought one or more investors might sue, he replied, “I wouldn’t be surprised.”

_


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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Remember when Stenger told Mark Johnson that the delay in informing investors of the dissolution of the partnership was because he hadn't finished preparing documents to provide to the investors?  According to this article, 9 months was apparently not enough time to get the documents done.
> http://bartonchronicle.com/stenger-...mpaign=stenger-admits-investors-informed-late
> 
> Here is a great quote from the article:
> ...



Good article.  Raymond is now singing a different tune than he was last week.  Remember he initially was saying that Jay was in the right and now he has done an about face.  Interesting.....



> Mr. Raymond said he is looking into the possibility of changing the rules for EB-5 limited partnerships, perhaps giving limited partners some degree of control over the general partners’ decisions.
> 
> That could prove tricky, he said, because restricting the general partners’ freedom of action could be hazardous to the financial health of a project, or could jeopardize the ability of investors to get a green card.
> 
> ...



See what I mean?  He begins with the party line and then changes course.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> * It could be a play to try to save the AnC Bio project*



<------  Still doesn't think there ever will be an AnC Bio project.  

Photo op with silver shovels in the ground?   Quite possibly, if not probably.
Completed, fully functional biotech research facility in Newport? Still not buying it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> <------  Still doesn't think there ever will be an AnC Bio project.
> 
> Photo op with silver shovels in the ground?   Quite possibly, if not probably.
> Completed, fully functional biotech research facility in Newport? Still not buying it.



Maybe I read something on here about the problem they are having convincing the employees they need to move there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 11, 2014)

VTDigger has an article about the $10,000 payments.

Here is a very interesting quote from the article:
_Stenger had extended an offer of a $10,000 dividend to several of the 35 limited partners that a spokesman for the investors describes as a “side deal.” Typically, limited partnership agreements require that all investors be paid back equally, with no priority given to one over another.

Stenger told VTDigger in an email on Friday that “the dividend discussion is ongoing.” He said the payments were always intended for all investors, and that he would deal with the transaction “in the private manner it warrants.”_

Why was Stenger playing favorites with the $10,000 payments?  This could suggest that there were strings attached.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 11, 2014)

Stenger told VTDigger in an email on Friday that “the dividend discussion is ongoing.” He said the payments were always intended for all investors, and that he would deal with the transaction *“in the private manner it warrants.*


By their actions alone, they (JP) have moved this financial transaction further into the public domain, have created public interest and thus have invited comment. 

IMO, The light of day is a good disinfectant for such matters that are ultimately underwritten by the American people i.e., EB-5.  

AND 

While they can try to spin this as a guaranteed payout and success!, that remains to be seen at least to 2018 or when another trap door clause is exercised.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2014)

*Newport Conference Center Deal Falls Through*


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

I see that the Pump House water park is closed during the middle of the week until at least Thanksgiving week.  Was this the case last year, or is this something new?  We have season passes that are good through mid-November, so it's a bit of a bummer.

The park closed yesterday at 6:00 PM and I have never seen it more dead.  I am guessing that by the last evening of a three day weekend most people were pretty well "water parked" out.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 2, 2014)

Well, considering it was just a three day weekend most folks were probably home by then anyways. 

Actual Labor Day is pretty slow everywhere besides the beach I think. The Saturday and Sunday before though would be where you judge if it was a success.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I see that the Pump House water park is closed during the middle of the week until at least Thanksgiving week.  Was this the case last year, or is this something new?  We have season passes that are good through mid-November, so it's a bit of a bummer.



I dont think it was closed mid-week last year although it probably makes business sense.  We go to the park mostly during the fall mostly because it is empty. We stay away most of winter.  We don't like crowds.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

We've enjoyed the water park in the summer - and our passes have been well worth it.  We usually combine it with biking or some other activity earlier in the day.  What's been nice is that we have been able to sit and enjoy the outside pool and enjoy the summer weather while our children enjoy the indoor attractions.  The crowds have been MUCH lower in the summer, which has been great.

We also avoid the water park in the winter.  There aren't nearly enough seats and the locker rooms are laughably small.  I've always felt that they should add lounge chair seating on the upstairs deck and make the bar a lot smaller.  The locker rooms... Well... that's not as easy to fix.  In the winter they look like a Goodwill store with coats and boots thrown everywhere.


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## fbrissette (Sep 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> We've enjoyed the water park in the summer - and our passes have been well worth it.  We usually combine it with biking or some other activity earlier in the day.  What's been nice is that we have been able to sit and enjoy the outside pool and enjoy the summer weather while our children enjoy the indoor attractions.  The crowds have been MUCH lower in the summer, which has been great.
> 
> We also avoid the water park in the winter.  There aren't nearly enough seats and the locker rooms are laughably small.  I've always felt that they should add lounge chair seating on the upstairs deck and make the bar a lot smaller.  The locker rooms... Well... that's not as easy to fix.  In the winter they look like a Goodwill store with coats and boots thrown everywhere.



We've also taken the pass.  An excellent deal for us. I fully agree with your assessment.


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## Steve@jpr (Sep 3, 2014)

*The overlay of assessment and reality*

Waterpark visits up +/- 4% for the period May-September 1.  Remember, weekends aren't the only (nor the best) barometer for park attendance-especially during the shoulder period when just about all available marketing assets are driving people to midweek visits (which are up double digit percents).  The park operating schedule, this year, is identical to last year.



fbrissette said:


> We've also taken the pass.  An excellent deal for us. I fully agree with your assessment.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2014)

I have no doubt that visits were up during the summer.  The summer season passes were marketed quite aggressively - and this was the first year that they were offered.  The real question is whether or not water park revenues were up since so many guests were using a season pass.  Warm bodies don't keep a water park open.  The cash that they spend does.

Revenues very well may be up.  As good a deal as our passes have proven to be, I doubt we would have spent as much at the water park had the passes not been offered.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Sep 3, 2014)

Those numbers represent day traffic and do not incl pass related visitation.  Revenue is up by a higher factor but a girl has to own at least a few secrets.



VTKilarney said:


> I have no doubt that visits were up during the summer.  The summer season passes were marketed quite aggressively - and this was the first year that they were offered.  The real question is whether or not water park revenues were up since so many guests were using a season pass.  Warm bodies don't keep a water park open.  The cash that they spend does.
> 
> Revenues very well may be up.  As good a deal as our passes have proven to be, I doubt we would have spent as much at the water park had the passes not been offered.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2014)

That's great news.  We are looking forward to renewing our passes for next summer!


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2014)

While you are here Steve, any comment on the rumor that there is a new GM (or will soon be a new GM) at Burke?


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The summer season passes were marketed quite aggressively - and this was the first year that they were offered.  The real question is whether or not water park revenues were up since so many guests were using a season pass.



In our case, I would venture that we ended up giving more money to Jay because of the Pass.  Instead of going 3-4 times during the Summer-Period (which is roughly the same as the cost of the season pass for our family of three with homeowner discount), we instead went more often but for shorter periods of time.  Suddenly, going to the park for 1 or 2 hours after Mountain biking made sense.  With these additional visits you end up buying Pizza and the occasional beer and dinner at the Forge.

We got a lot more park-hours with the pass (which we would not have paid for with the old system) and Jay ends up with more money. Everybody is happy.  I know next to nothing about marketing but I would assume that this was Jay Peak's goal to begin with.  Same with ski passes. Pass holder will come on a shitty day when no one buys a day ticket, and hopefully they will spend some money at the resort.

Park passes would not make sense in winter time, but for the rest of the year I think it is smart marketing.


----------



## dlague (Sep 3, 2014)

Steve@jpr said:


> Those numbers represent day traffic and do not incl pass related visitation.  Revenue is up by a higher factor but a girl has to own at least a few secrets.



We have been up several times this summer (in August) and we were pleasantly surprised to see the parking lot so full.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Domeskier (Sep 3, 2014)

dlague said:


> We have been up several times this summer (in August) and *we pleasantly surprised to see the parking lot so full.*



That has to be a first! ;-)


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 3, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> That has to be a first! ;-)



Agreed.  Full parking is OK in the summer.  Not so much in the winter.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2014)

An Act 250 permit was issued this morning for the AnC Bio plant.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Sep 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> An Act 250 permit was issued this morning for the AnC Bio plant.



That's not really a bombshell ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Sep 25, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> An Act 250 permit was issued this morning for the AnC Bio plant.



http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=118216

It will be interesting to see how things go.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 25, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=118216
> 
> It will be interesting to see how things go.



One thing confuses me in the article. They keep mentioning Newport _CITY._That's not Newport Center? Or are they talking about Newport which is on the south shore of Memphremagog?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 25, 2014)

Abubob said:


> One thing confuses me in the article. They keep mentioning Newport _CITY._That's not Newport Center? Or are they talking about Newport which is on the south shore of Memphremagog?



Yeah it is confusing....I will need to defer to someone who knows the exact boundaries.  There is Newport City, Newport Town, and Newport Center.


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## kingdom-tele (Sep 25, 2014)

newport town and newport center are the same place, newport city is a different town altogether

we have differnet schools, taxation, municiples, etc

the boundry is along  the west side of the lake for the most part.


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## dlague (Sep 25, 2014)

It is the City of Newport and the location overlooks the lake.  Newport center is the neighboring town.


.......


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## Abubob (Sep 25, 2014)

So is this property they're talking about?


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## mbedle (Sep 25, 2014)

yes - that is the property. What I found interesting or at least coincidental was that the plant use to manufacture ski clothing...


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## Abubob (Sep 25, 2014)

mbedle said:


> yes - that is the property. What I found interesting or at least coincidental was that the plant use to manufacture ski clothing...



Which will now be used to burn ski clothing. Like the Bogner brown one piece I own?


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## dlague (Sep 25, 2014)

mbedle said:


> yes - that is the property. What I found interesting or at least coincidental was that the plant use to manufacture ski clothing...



Yup former Bogner plant which is also the reason there used to be a vigneron outlet in Newport many years ago!



.......


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

Hmmmm...

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/05/docu...dinated-promotional-materials-media-response/


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/05/docu...dinated-promotional-materials-media-response/



That Brent Raymond guy still has his job?   Things sure do move slowly in Vermont. 

 Mark my words, he'll be gone soon.

But in typical government (zero accountability) style, he'll likely either: 
A) Transfer 
B) Resign 
C) Take a job elsewhere

rather than "technically"  be fired.

  My guess is, the only reason he still has his job, is that if they do get rid of him it's an automatic admission of failure.  That's also "very government".


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

> In an email to the state, *one of the investors*, whose name was redacted  by state officials, *says he can’t understand why Raymond isn’t acting in  an independent capacity, “unless the representations by the state of  Vermont and its Regional Center are in and of themselves  misrepresentations to induce investors?*”



Noooooooooooooooo.

  You don't_ POSSIBLY_ think, do you?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

Would it surprise anyone if he wound up employed at Jay Peak?


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *Would it surprise anyone if he wound up employed at Jay Peak?*



Yes, greatly.  Jay Peak management didn't get this far by being politically naive.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

> the governor made comments about the state’s level of oversight of the  investment program that were inaccurate and needed to be removed from a  promotional video produced by Jay Peak. *Shumlin incorrectly said the  projects are audited.*



Audited?    Why on earth would they ever need to be audited? 

*It's not as if they're receiving HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars *or anything.

Oh.........wait........


This story makes Vermonters look like the uneducated & backwards hicks that judgmental & arrogant New York City and Boston tourist types already think they are.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

Holy crap, I hadn't had a chance to finish the full article.



> “Moreover, *you will recall that a couple of years ago we asked you to  hire an outside auditor *to do just that *and you *(Stenger and Quiros) *reported to us that it  was too much of an expense and that you would rely upon the overall  audit done on Jay Peak rather than a separate audit focused exclusively  on EB5*,” Kessler wrote. “So, the reality is an audit of Jay Peak’s EB5  projects is not performed by the State OR Jay Peak.”



I'm at a complete loss for words.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Holy crap, I hadn't had a chance to finish the full article.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm at a complete loss for words.



I am disappointed with my home state but not completely surprised unfortunately.  Call me cynical.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

I know that people are quick to say that "they got what they deserved."  But that's absurd.  First, we don't know what they were promised.  Second, it's pretty cold hearted to not give a crap if someone was mislead or ripped off.  Second, This is going to have an impact on ALL business in Vermont to attract funding - including ski areas.

I'm willing to bet that the final chapter of this story is far from written.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

Meh.  Same old story as before.  The investors didn't read their contracts and now want to claim the money was a loan and not an at-risk investment. Of course, this happens once they got their greencards.  So they raise a stink because they want their money back. (Despite the fact it wasn't a loan).  State tells them to read their contract- and contact Jay.
The investors point to notification errors by Jay- errors which created no substantive change in their ownership interest or lost money.  Oh, and nobody has evidence of fraud -despite yearly audits of Jay's operations.

In the end, the investors get a sweeter deal- by getting secured interests because they raise a stink.

What is so amusing about this whole "stink" is the fact that VT is getting criticized for what is essentially their competitive advantage over all the other EB-5 regional centers: government involvement and oversight.

A regional center can be started by someone in their garage.  The involvement by the State provides more public oversight, accountability (and control over flow of investments) than one would get from a private center- and guard against some of the horror stories seen in other places where the money just plain disappeared.  Yes, there could be more oversight (like yearly program specific audits), but there's still more oversight than for private entities which have ZERO reporting requirements beyond the USCIS applications.

If you want a conspiracy theory, then think about this: Investment banks are just now getting into the EB-5 game, realizing there's this untapped flow of cash coming in from folks who's secondary concern is getting a decent investment.  They are competing in what has quickly become a saturated market.    Who benefits from eliminating VT's competitive advantage over all the other EB-5 regional centers by spreading rumors of impropriety?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Meh.  Same old story as before.  The investors didn't read their contracts and now want to claim the money was a loan and not an at-risk investment. Of course, this happens once they got their greencards.  So they raise a stink because they want their money back. (Despite the fact it wasn't a loan).  State tells them to read their contract- and contact Jay.



That's a very broad and unfair simplification as to what has happened.  These folks were equity owners and had their interests quietly extinguished (for no stated reason) and converted to an unsecured loan.  Yes it has been reported that this was within JPR's discretion but management did not tell the investors until several MONTHS later.  



> What is so amusing about this whole "stink" is the fact that VT is getting criticized for what is essentially their competitive advantage over all the other EB-5 regional centers: government involvement and oversight.



You obviously did not read the article or understand the whole point and that is that folks feel as if Vermont is NOT doing ANY oversight at all.  I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that they are not.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> That's a very broad and unfair simplification as to what has happened.  These folks were equity owners and had their interests quietly extinguished (for no stated reason) and converted to an unsecured loan.  Management did not tell the investors until several MONTHS later.



Their agreement allowed the general partners to convert their equity interest.  If they read the agreement they would know this.   Where's the controversy?  That they weren't earlier notified of a change that they couldn't have stopped anyway?  Whipdee frickin' do.



thetrailboss said:


> You obviously did not read the article or understand the whole point and that is that folks feel as if Vermont is NOT doing ANY oversight at all.



Actually I did read the article- or the series of them to be exact.  And they clearly indicate that there is oversight and reporting to the regional center by Jay.  Could it be better?  Yes.  But to suggest there is none (like there is with a completely private entity) misstates the facts.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This story makes Vermonters look like the uneducated & backwards hicks that judgmental & arrogant New York City and Boston tourist types already think they are.



Yeah, cause projects with financial shenanigans NEVER happen in big cities/Wall Street.  :roll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Their agreement allowed the general partners to convert their equity interest.  If they read the agreement they would know this.   Where's the controversy?  That they weren't earlier notified of a change that they couldn't have stopped anyway?  Whipdee frickin' do.



The fact that JPR did the conversion is not as much of the problem as the lack of transparency and communication.  Maybe the "gosh darn we should have told you sooner" is the case, but if someone did that with regulated securities they'd be in serious trouble and for good reason.    



> Actually I did read the article- or the series of them to be exact.  And they clearly indicate that there is oversight and reporting to the regional center by Jay.  Could it be better?  Yes.  But to suggest there is none (like there is with a completely private entity) misstates the facts.



But again the issue is that the Center sees itself more as a cheerleader than as a regulator.  That's a problem.  In fact, *it's a big issue* with other entities that regulate finance.  If the center was providing proper oversight, i.e. accountings and reportings for EACH project, then this would not happen and we'd have greater confidence in what is going on.  You seem to assume that they are providing oversight (and a lot of other folks do as well) when it seems clearer and clearer that they are not--either because they don't have the resources or authority to do so or because of some other reason.....


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> In the end, the investors get a sweeter deal- by getting secured interests because they raise a stink.


So that's why the EB-5 money has all but dried up for Jay?  Give me a break.  And keep in mind that the fantastic loan that was promised to the investors was very late in coming and anticipates a MASSIVE balloon payment.  But I suppose to you a potential huge balloon payment is better than owning the actual real estate, eh?


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So that's why the EB-5 money has all but dried up for Jay?  Give me a break.  And keep in mind that the fantastic loan that was promised to the investors was very late in coming and anticipates a MASSIVE balloon payment.  But I suppose to you a potential huge balloon payment is better than owning the actual real estate, eh?



It has dried up primarily because of increased competition in the market.  The (unsubstantiated) allegations of fraud certainly don't help.

And if by "owning" you mean a limited partial ownership interest- with limited rights on tranferrability of that interest, in an entity that owns the real estate versus being a creditor.  Then yes, I would.  Especially if that interest was then secured.  You would be in a much better position if things ultimately went belly-up. 

But the question is: If the interest they owned to begin with was convertible... and then it was converted.... then no, they haven't lost any rights, because it was always convertible and always out of their control.  That ship sailed when they signed an agreement that allowed the GP to convert their interests.

You seem to assume they could have stopped the conversion or had some right to control it- they didn't. 

So again, their only complaint is that they weren't timely notified of a change over which they had no control.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> It has dried up primarily because of increased competition in the market.  The (unsubstantiated) allegations of fraud certainly don't help.


Which means that the investors view untested projects as being more appealing than Jay Peak with their track record.  Does that not tell you something?  And isn't Stenger/Quiros to blame for pissing off their investors?  Stenger claims that it was merely because in 9 months he couldn't get the documents prepared for the investors.  Please...



noreasterbackcountry said:


> And if by "owning" you mean a limited partial ownership interest- with limited rights on tranferrability of that interest, in an entity that owns the real estate versus being a creditor.  Then yes, I would.  Especially if that interest was then secured.  You would be in a much better position if things ultimately went belly-up.


The investors were led to believe that they would be able to sell a fractional share of the real estate on the open market.  I'd take that any day over a promised balloon payment.  Apparently we differ in that regard.  Keep in mind that Stenger/Quiros originally gave them an unsecured loan, and only after public outcry made it secured.  But it's not secured by the brand new hotel.  It's for the antiquated ski facilities, if I have read correctly.  And you think that prospective investors won't pay attention to these details?



noreasterbackcountry said:


> But the question is: If the interest they owned to begin with was convertible... and then it was converted.... then no, they haven't lost any rights, because it was always convertible and always out of their control.  That ship sailed when they signed an agreement that allowed the GP to convert their interests.


I agree that they signed the document.  On the other hand, the marketing never led them to believe that this would happen.  I don't think that either party shoulders all of the blame.  Again, even if the COULD do it, it sends a message that investment in a Vermont ski area is a bad idea.  You can't deny that the message is out there - all thanks to Mr. Stenger and Mr. Quiros.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

This Forbes article cites some statistics regarding the increased competition, and also how at least one big developer is getting into the game:  http://fortune.com/2014/07/24/immigration-eb-5-visa-for-sale/

The article also cites a few examples of fraudulent private regional centers.  I'm not saying it can't happen with a state run regional center, but those horror stories are less likely to occur.  If I was out soliciting investment for the VT regional center I would bring a copy of the article to show folks what could happen with the purely private regional centers.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The investors were led to believe that they would be able to sell a fractional share of the real estate on the open market.



We know that the agreement allowed the GP to convert their interest once they obtained their greencard.  This has been confirmed by VT Digger, among others.   They did not have a "fractional share of the real estate".. they had a fractional share of the entity that owned the real estate.  There's a difference- especially as limited partners.  Further, that fractional share was not secured- because the rules prohibit a secured interest (at least while they are in the process of getting the greencard).  Given that the GP had the right to convert their interests, I would be wholly surprised if the agreement also allowed each of the LP's to convert- so long as they did it before the GP served them notice of the GP's election to convert.  I suppose an agreement like that is conceivable... Weird, but conceivable.  But there has been no confirmation that there is any such provision. 

The more likely scenario is that they obtained their greencard and now they are looking for any/all leverage to get their money back as quickly as possible-- regardless of the effect on the regional center or investment in VT. 

I don't have much pity for those folks who can invest $500k and want to change the deal once they got what they want (greencard) at the expense of future investment in VT.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> *What is so amusing about this whole "stink" is the fact that VT is getting criticized for what is essentially their competitive advantage over all the other EB-5 regional centers: government involvement and oversight.*


Huh? :blink:  Have you even been following this story? 



noreasterbackcountry said:


> *The involvement by the State provides more public oversight, accountability (and control over flow of investments) than one would get from a private center*- and guard against some of the horror stories seen in other places where the money just plain disappeared.



I would say this is decidedly false from the evidence we've seen.   

The private centers need to show results to keep their going concern alive and continue to get funding from the EB-5 game.  

As for Vermont's EB-5 program, exactly what,_ "public oversight and accountability" _are you talking about?  The government EB-5 of Vermont has demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt or by anyone's possible definition that it is completely incompetent at best, and perhaps complicit at worst.  How the hades you're defending them in this matter is completely beyond me, another bit of evidence you couldn't possibly be following this story closely.    



from_the_NEK said:


> Yeah,* cause projects with financial shenanigans NEVER happen in big cities/Wall Street.*  :roll:



  You're correct, history has shown that fraud can happen ANYWHERE, yes, on "Wall Street" and in "Big cities" and elsewhere.  

But the word "fraud" connotes that "shenanigans" were pulled in the first place, by falsifying information.  

In this instance, "fraud" wouldn't even be necessary, because HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars (literally) were all handed to 1 entity (literally) with absolutely no auditing requirements (literally).  

Bernie Madoff was an extremely devious and smart individual that had to constantly falsify records and documents, and go to a lot of work and trouble to keep his "Wall Street" Ponzi scheme going.  Whether there is any serious wrongdoing here that goes far beyond the intentional deception that's already occurred remains to be seen.   The point is, however, that there is absolutely no oversight here, so much so that absolutely no deception would be necessary to "make off with the money".  To your point -  No, I've personally never seen anything quite like this in my life involving hundreds of millions, on "Wall Street" or in "big cities" or elsewhere.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Huh? :blink:  Have you even been following this story?
> 
> I would say this is decidedly false from the evidence we've seen.


 
Go back up the thread and read about the quarterly reports submitted the state.

Now, give me examples of where a private regional center has been submitting quarterly reports to anyone other than USCIS.  Then and only then would that statement be false.



BenedictGomez said:


> The private centers need to show results to keep their going concern alive and continue to get funding from the EB-5 game.



Now go read the Forbes article I posted and you'll see this doesn't hold water.  


BenedictGomez said:


> As for Vermont's EB-5 program, exactly what,_ "public oversight and accountability" _are you talking about?  The government EB-5 of Vermont has demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt or by anyone's possible definition that it is completely incompetent at best, and perhaps complicit at worst.  How the hades you're defending them in this matter is completely beyond me, another bit of evidence you couldn't possibly be following this story closely.



Again.  Go up the thread and you'll read about quarterly reports to the state.  That is more than you would get from a private regional center. 



BenedictGomez said:


> The point is, however, that there is absolute no oversight here, so much so that absolutely no deception would be necessary to "make off with the money".  To your point -  No, I've personally never seen anything quite like this in my life involving hundreds of millions, on "Wall Street" or in "big cities" or elsewhere.



The claim there is "no oversight" is hyperbole at best.  

And again, go read the Forbes article if you're interested in examples of private schemes.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> We know that the agreement allowed the GP to convert their interest once they obtained their greencard.  This has been confirmed by VT Digger, among others.   They did not have a "fractional share of the real estate".. they had a fractional share of the entity that owned the real estate.  There's a difference- especially as limited partners.  Further, that fractional share was not secured- because the rules prohibit a secured interest (at least while they are in the process of getting the greencard).  Given that the GP had the right to convert their interests, I would be wholly surprised if the agreement also allowed each of the LP's to convert- so long as they did it before the GP served them notice of the GP's election to convert.  I suppose an agreement like that is conceivable... Weird, but conceivable.  But there has been no confirmation that there is any such provision.
> 
> The more likely scenario is that they obtained their greencard and now they are looking for any/all leverage to get their money back as quickly as possible-- regardless of the effect on the regional center or investment in VT.
> 
> I don't have much pity for those folks who can invest $500k and want to change the deal once they got what they want (greencard) at the expense of future investment in VT.


So Stenger was merely lying in this interview?  http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Go back up the thread and read about the quarterly reports submitted the state.


You are either clueless or deceptive.  Either is bad.  

From the July VTDigger article:
_Moulton said Friday the center has been monitoring Jay Peak “right along.” Recently, the center put the resort “on notice,” and is now requiring the company to submit quarterly reports. Before now, the regional center did not require any formal reporting, even though MOUs with all the EB-5 projects include a clause that quarterly reports are to be submitted._

And even if the reports had been submitted, that's all you have to suggest that there was actual oversight?  Thin gruel, if you ask me.  Submitting something does not mean it was reviewed and/or acted upon.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I don't have much pity for those folks who can invest $500k and want to change the deal once they got what they want (greencard) at the expense of future investment in VT.


I would agree with you if the marketing did not mislead.  Based on what I have read, it's my opinion that at best they were mislead.  So, again, attributing fault solely to one party in this transaction is absurd.  You're also playing a cute game of blame the victim.  Because nobody should question why it took Stenger several months to get documents to the investors telling them about a MAJOR change in their investment.  Oh, wait... did he ever get those documents to them?  Even if everything you say is true (which we have shown is not), Stenger still looks like an absolute clown.  That has done damage in and of itself.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Go back up the thread and *read about the quarterly reports submitted the state.*



For starters, this is false.  State of Vermont did not review quarterly financial reports.   

More importantly, even if they did (which they didnt) a cursory review of what is contained in a quarterly financial report is nearly meaningless when we're talking about the flow of hundreds of millions of dollars.   You need a complete financial audit conducted by an outside entity, which common sense would deem is occurring with a pot this large.  This is one of the largest EB-5 programs in America.   It's not happening.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> *give me examples of where a private regional center has been submitting quarterly reports *to anyone other than USCIS.



The private EB-5 entities do conduct financial reviews and/or audits.  Whether they be quarterly, semi-annual, or annual.  Regardless, if they did so much as lift a finger it's (apparently) more than the State of Vermont is doing.    That's NOT to say I think the private EB-5 companies are wonderful either.  On the contrary, I think this entire EB-5 program is a complete trainwreck ripe for abuse.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I would agree with you if the marketing did not mislead.  Based on what I have read, it's my opinion that at best they were mislead.  So, again, attributing fault solely to one party in this transaction is absurd.  You're also playing a cute game of blame the victim.  Because nobody should question why it took Stenger several months to get documents to the investors telling them about a MAJOR change in their investment.  Oh, wait... did he ever get those documents to them?  Even if everything you say is true (which we have shown is not), Stenger still looks like an absolute clown.  That has done damage in and of itself.



How can they have been misled if the agreement they signed said the opposite of what they are now claiming?  Someone who has the means to hire a competent lawyer and is now claiming they were lied to (when the agreement clearly laid out what to expect) is not a victim. 

You can call it a MAJOR change all you want, but you still haven't explained how their position was materially altered by the conversion- except the loss of some hypothetical right to sell that is contradicted by what we already know from VTDigger.

And you also haven't explained the harm-- even if it WAS a major change- of the lack of notice if they had no control over the right of the GP to make that change.  (Also keep in mind that the agreement didn't require notice- that was from an unincorporated recommendation on LP practices)


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Huh? :blink:  Have you even been following this story?



Thanks.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that!  :lol:

And my understanding, from the articles and what is known, is that the State DID NOT require quarterly reports from JPR and was "satisfied" with words of reassurance and an audit of JPR's ENTIRE operations.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> For starters, this is false.  State of Vermont did not review quarterly financial reports.



Because you are obviously having trouble scrolling up:



VTKilarney said:


> Gotta love this quote from here: http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/
> _James Candido, the principal overseer of State of Vermont EB-5 projects, stated to me that he inspects Jay Peak’s financial records at least four times per year and that he has not seen any financial irregularities or problems in Jay Peak’s finances. _





BenedictGomez said:


> The private EB-5 entities do conduct financial reviews and/or audits.



Anshoo Sethi disagrees.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> How can they have been misled if the agreement they signed said the opposite of what they are now claiming?  Someone who has the means to hire a competent lawyer and is now claiming they were lied to (when the agreement clearly laid out what to expect) is not a victim.



That's NOT the point!  :roll:  



> You can call it a MAJOR change all you want, but you still haven't explained how their position was materially altered by the conversion- except the loss of some hypothetical right to sell that is contradicted by what we already know from VTDigger.



They had an equity interest and believed because of the hype that their asset would have increased in value because of all the cool things that JPR was doing.  Some apparently thought they were buying actual "units" in the Hotel that they could resell...at least what one article I read said.  Then management quietly converted their status to (initially) unsecured creditors.  That's a huge difference.  After the so-called "stink" they got secured interests against JPR as a WHOLE.  

To step away from that issue though, what lurks in the background is that many are questioning Stenger and company about their plans and if they are really feasible considering economics, etc.  Some have felt that Stenger and Company really just don't have the money to make it all work and that things are not as rosy as they appear.  Back in May, Mr. Pomerleau did not just back out from the Waterfront Hotel/Marina Project, but he called up WCAX and they did a whole story on it...why would he do that?  Pomerleau I think was sounding the alarm and saying they don't have the money.  That's unusual for him to make such a statement over that.  After that other plans at Jay were quietly delayed and then this whole thing came to light.  That's the context of the situation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Because you are obviously having trouble scrolling up:



I don't think that's the issue.  With all due respect I think you jumped into the middle of a conversation without really understanding the history of what is going on.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You are either clueless or deceptive.





VTKilarney said:


> Gotta love this quote from here: http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/
> _James Candido, the principal overseer of State of Vermont EB-5 projects, stated to me that he inspects Jay Peak’s financial records at least four times per year and that he has not seen any financial irregularities or problems in Jay Peak’s finances. _



C'mon, you've gotta feel at least a little silly for claiming I am clueless for quoting you.



VTKilarney said:


> Thin gruel, if you ask me.  Submitting something does not mean it was reviewed and/or acted upon.



Still more than you would get from a private regional center which was the point.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> How can they have been misled if the agreement they signed said the opposite of what they are now claiming?  Someone who has the means to hire a competent lawyer and is now claiming they were lied to (when the agreement clearly laid out what to expect) is not a victim.


You clearly haven't read the interview that I linked.  I have not disputed that Stenger could make the change, nor have I disputed that the investors should have known that the possibility was provided for in the agreement.  But this is a separate issue from Stenger being a snake oil salesman, which if you looked at the interview he clearly was.  I guess we value character and ethics more in Vermont than you do in Massachusetts.  We will just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> C'mon, you've gotta feel at least a little silly for claiming I am clueless for quoting you.


You quoted a blog posted that I linked to.  That's not the same as quoting me.  I have known that the records were not being provided, even though the agreement required them.  That's why I pointed it out to you.

The reality is that more than one factual error in your argument has been pointed out - and you don't even seem to care about getting those facts straight.  Readers here can make of that what they will.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> Still more than you would get from a private regional center which was the point.


Since when was zero greater than something?


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I guess we value character and ethics more in Vermont than you do in Massachusetts.  We will just have to agree to disagree.



Aw, c'mon Kilarney.  We were having a good discussion until you had to go get personal.  You're better than that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

It's not at all personal, but it is what it is.  You are defending gamesmanship.  Take to me when the balloon payments are made and I will gladly apologize.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I have known that the records were not being provided, even though the agreement required them.  That's why I pointed it out to you.



That blog piece, which you quoted/linked in your post above, quotes James Candido as claiming he inspects Jay Peak's finances four times per year on behalf of the regional center. Are you saying that he was lying in that piece?  What's your source?

If he is not lying, doesn't that mean there is some oversight.. and not zero oversight...?  Imperfect is not none.

And why is it unethical to hold people to what they've agreed to in their written contracts?  Or to call them out when they try to change the deal after they get what they want from it? I think you have it backwards:  character is about honoring your responsibilities even after you got what you wanted out of the deal.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It's not at all personal, but it is what it is.



... You know.. I had some snarky response to this, but I've pulled it.

Instead I'll say this:  After going back and reading the articles again- and your comments above- I'm guessing that we probably agree on a couple quick things they could implement:  They should have regular independent audits of the EB-5 program (so the investors and others can't claim irregularities are being hidden), and be more proactive about correcting and/or editing Stenger's performance promises in the promotional materials.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You quoted a blog posted that I linked to.  That's not the same as quoting me.  I have known that the records were not being provided, even though the agreement required them.  That's why I pointed it out to you.



That was the blog that I thought was fishy too, almost like a paid advertisement for Jay Peak's reputation being legit post that Rapid VISA USA bombshell, complete with, _"My wife was impressed with how much stuff in our room was Made in Vermont"_.

Nevertheless, one other interesting nugget from that blog from over 2 years ago, based on today's info:



> *Bill Stenger stated during his interview that the Resort is currently in  the planning stage of an audit of the Resort’s finances by an  independent accounting firm. A likely completion and release date was  not available at the time of our discussion.*



Yeah, because now we know that that Independent Accounting audit was just _"too expensive"_ = ROFL.

 Gimme a break.   I'm supposed to believe that Jay Peak is a major east coast competitor, rapidly expanding like a Goliath and acquiring competitors, yet they cant afford to bring on a couple of hourly accounting contractors from PWC or Deloitte for three weeks to run an audit?  

Rigggggggghhhhhhht.


----------



## machski (Oct 6, 2014)

Look, bottom line with EB-5 is it is a short cut to a green card.  If the investment fails to make the investor money but created the jobs, the investor gets a green card.  If one wants to make a $ return on investment, many better ways to do this.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> That blog piece, which you quoted/linked in your post above, quotes James Candido as claiming he inspects Jay Peak's finances four times per year on behalf of the regional center. Are you saying that he was lying in that piece?  What's your source?


 Have you not read what I have previously posted?  This is getting tedious.  I will quote this VTDiffer article from July of this year *yet again*:
_Moulton said Friday the center has been monitoring Jay Peak “right along.” Recently, the center put the resort “on notice,” and is now requiring the company to submit quarterly reports. Before now, the regional center did not require any formal reporting, even though MOUs with all the EB-5 projects include a clause that quarterly reports are to be submitted._

If the ACCD Secretary says that Jay Peak was not submitting reports as they had agreed to do, and if the quote in the blog post is accurate, then yes, I would say that Candido was being less than truthful.  And had you read and digested what I have posted I assume you would agree.

Keep in mind that the "blog post" was the experience of an immigration attorney who went to Jay Peak to look into whether or not it would be a good place to park his clients' money.  It wasn't some random fool who wrote that post.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> If he is not lying, doesn't that mean there is some oversight.. and not zero oversight...?  Imperfect is not none.


I've yet to see anybody demonstrate any oversight.  Until that happens, "zero" is the operative number.



noreasterbackcountry said:


> And why is it unethical to hold people to what they've agreed to in their written contracts?  Or to call them out when they try to change the deal after they get what they want from it? I think you have it backwards:  character is about honoring your responsibilities even after you got what you wanted out of the deal.


You just don't get it, do you?  Look at the things Stenger was saying to court subsequent investors.  Things like: _As it happens, the exit strategy issue may be a moot point as regards Phase I investors. Stenger volunteered during our discussions that the revenue trends on Phase I residences are looking so good “that we are seriously considering buying out the Phase I investors ourselves.” _

I'm not criticizing Stenger for invoking a clause in a contract.  I'm criticizing him for misrepresentations.  Big difference.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

machski said:


> Look, bottom line with EB-5 is it is a short cut to a green card.  If the investment fails to make the investor money but created the jobs, the investor gets a green card.  If one wants to make a $ return on investment, many better ways to do this.


So the ends justify the means no matter what, eh?


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Have you not read what I have previously posted?  This is getting tedious.  I will quote this VTDiffer article from July of this year *yet again*:
> _Moulton said Friday the center has been monitoring Jay Peak “right along.” Recently, the center put the resort “on notice,” and is now requiring the company to submit quarterly reports. Before now, the regional center did not require any formal reporting, even though MOUs with all the EB-5 projects include a clause that quarterly reports are to be submitted._
> 
> If the ACCD Secretary says that Jay Peak was not submitting reports as they had agreed to do, and if the quote in the blog post is accurate, then yes, I would say that Candido was being less than truthful.  And had you read and digested what I have posted I assume you would agree.



Read that paragraph again and you'll realize it says that "they did not require" reporting. It does not say, as you have presumed, that no reporting occurred.  

I'll give you that the article is confusing. The reporter should have cleared that up.  Why not follow-up by asking Moulton directly if they've been submitting reports.  Not whether they were required to submit reports....


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Read that paragraph again and you'll realize it says that "they did not require" reporting. It does not say, as you have presumed, that no reporting occurred.



Please.  This is getting absurd.  You're now arguing that though the State did not require any reporting that Jay probably did it anyways?  Stop digging.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Read that paragraph again and you'll realize it says that "they did not require" reporting. It does not say, as you have presumed, that no reporting occurred.
> 
> I'll give you that the article is confusing. The reporter should have cleared that up.  Why not follow-up by asking Moulton directly if they've been submitting reports.  Not whether they were required to submit reports....


Please don't insult my intelligence.  In the article, Moulton said that Jay Peak was "put on notice" and that the state is now requiring quarterly reports even though they had not required them before despite the fact that the MOUs required them to be submitted to the state.  

So according to you everything was going along just fine and Jay Peak was "put on notice" to make sure that they kept doing a great job filing these reports.  Again, please don't insult my intelligence.  If you want to have a serious debate, fine - but this is not the way to go about it.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Please.  This is getting absurd.


Getting?  We have crossed into troll land.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Getting?  We have crossed into troll land.



I guess I'm the only one who finds it odd that the reporter is writing an article on lack of oversight, sets up the conclusion by pointing to statements by Moulton.... then hedges the language on driving that point home by failing to outright state that no reporting was done.  Again, you may be right.. it may just be bad reporting/editing, or they were avoiding calling Moulton a liar... but they hedged on saying outright "no reporting was provided". 

Actually I think trolling is claiming that people were falsely led into signing their agreements based on representations that were made 5+ years after those folks had signed their agreements.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Again, you may be right.. it may just be bad reporting/editing, or they were avoiding calling Moulton a liar... but they hedged on saying outright "no reporting was provided".


I think they trusted the reader to make the connection.  You don't get put "on notice" for doing a great job.  The author no doubt assumed that the reader understood that.  I guess in at least one instance that was a poor assumption.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think they trusted the reader to make the connection.  You don't get put "on notice" for doing a great job.  The author no doubt assumed that the reader understood that.  I guess in at least one instance that was a poor assumption.



The author shouldn't be leaving the main point of the article to assumption... but with that said, I came across this Argus article which supports the conclusion that no reporting has been done: http://www.argusleader.com/story/davidmontgomery/2014/08/06/eb5-vermont-state-hands/13672275/  (See the footnotes)

The official also indicates here that reporting has not been required but notes that "monitoring" is done.  Nobody elaborates on exactly what that means. Does that mean they looked at the books?  How closely?  How often?  Who knows... 

I agree that this murky picture on how much oversight is provided is troubling.  It should be clear.  But not because I think the actors are out scamming the public.  As I stated above, I think the oversight from the State is a competitive advantage over other regional centers and they should be doing everything they can to protect that advantage.  Leaving the impression that there is only lax oversight doesn't help.  

I would guess that the lack of stricter oversight has more to do with trying to make it easier on businesses/investors by not overburdening them with red tape, regulations and reporting than it does with some nefarious plan to embezzle or siphon funds.  Talk to any business owner in VT about red tape and you'll get an earful.

With that said, the state should be erring on the side of caution to protect what is their advantage in a tighter market.  

Hopefully for Burke and the other NEK projects the ship hasn't already sailed on the state's regional center image.

Aside from the quarterly reporting and annual project audits, is there anything else you guys would suggest the state should be doing to improve the regional center?


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 7, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> The official also indicates here that* reporting has not been required* but notes that "monitoring" is done.  Nobody elaborates on exactly what that means. *Does that mean they looked at the books?*  How closely?  How often?  Who knows...



 I think it's fairly clear at this point that that's not the case.  And frankly?  Even if they did it wouldn't matter, because from the 35 second LinkedIN review I did on Brent Raymond and a few of the other principal players at State of Vermont, I can assure you they dont have the background to conduct that work.  Raymond in particular looks like he probably got his job from Military points and/or his political connections, and this is the guy in charge.  He worked as a Financial Advisor until a few years ago (I'm not kidding, look it up).  That work qualifies you to put grandma's money into mutual funds (usually the ones that pay the FA the highest fee) and how to roll over into a ROTH IRA, not the serious forensic accounting that is now sorely needed in this case.  





noreasterbackcountry said:


> *I agree that this murky picture on how much oversight is provided is troubling.  *It should be clear.  But *not because I think the actors are out scamming the public.*


  At this point, with what we know, I would say that it's highly unlikely SOME fraud and abuse has not occurred at some point.  This is a LONG thread, and I was open-minded in the beginning, but not anymore.  I can tell you that when there are hundreds of thousands of dollars touching many people with no oversight, impropriety is common.  It's more common with millions because it's easier.  It's common with tens-of-millions too, even easier.  Hundreds of millions with zero oversight?  Couldn't tell ya, I've never personally seen something like this before, but I'd be shocked if skimming wasn't occurring somewhere in the pipeline.  Either directly or indirectly.  





noreasterbackcountry said:


> I think *the oversight from the State is a competitive advantage over  other regional centers and they should be doing everything they can to  protect that advantage.*


 *There.  Is.   No.   Oversight.*  Beyond that, the only place I've read where it being State run is somehow an advantage, is in the State's EB-5 Center's own marketing jargon claiming so.  It makes little sense to me.  So other than parroting them saying it being "State run" is an advantage, why do you think it's an advantage?  Do you think people have an inherent trust of government?  I sure dont believe that's the case.  Do you think the Chinese investors they're specifically targeting have an inherent trust of government.  I sure KNOW that's not the case.


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## fbrissette (Oct 7, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> At this point, with what we know, I would say that it's highly unlikely SOME fraud and abuse has not occurred at some point. This is a LONG thread, and I was open-minded in the beginning, but not anymore. I can tell you that when there are hundreds of thousands of dollars touching many people with no oversight, impropriety is common.



You are all too right about this.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ption-fraud-in-investor-visa-progra/?page=all


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## VTKilarney (Oct 7, 2014)

Perhaps the biggest fraud of all is the trumped up "job creation" statistics that these projects employ.


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## fbrissette (Oct 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Perhaps the biggest fraud of all is the trumped up "job creation" statistics that these projects employ.



As long as they're getting their visas, they're getting the most important part of their deal IMO.

Getting a visa out of a guaranteed 5-year interest-free loan does not seem very reasonable.  There would be a very very long line of investors of this was the case.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 7, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> As long as they're getting their visas, they're getting the most important part of their deal IMO.
> 
> Getting a visa out of a guaranteed 5-year interest-free loan does not seem very reasonable.  There would be a very very long line of investors of this was the case.


Oh, they are getting their visas.  But are they getting them for creating jobs like they promised?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Oh, they are getting their visas.  But are they getting them for creating jobs like they promised?



It's not them. The project managers need to assure that the jobs are created. The Center verifies it.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Oct 7, 2014)

Stowe has invested more money & created more jobs in the ski industry over the past several years than any other VT. resort without a cent coming from the EB-5 program.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Stowe has invested more money & created more jobs in the ski industry over the past several years than any other VT. resort without a cent coming from the EB-5 program.



Aren't some of the lodges EB-5 funded? I know that Sugarbush and Snow used EB-5 money.

And to be fair we all bailed out AIG.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Oct 7, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> And to be fair we all bailed out AIG.


Every cent paid back plus a handsome profit to the government.

Not a cent from EB-5 or bailout money for ski area improvements.

The Von Trapp family & the Stowe/ Morrisville airport tried to get EB-5 money. Don't think it ever happened though.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Every cent paid back plus a handsome profit to the government.
> 
> Not a cent from EB-5 or bailout money for ski area improvements.



I know the Feds did well with GM and other deals. AIG was one of them?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Oct 7, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I know the Feds did well with GM and other deals. AIG was one of them?


LOL. the feds lost $20 billion on the GM bailout. Not sure if they ever paid back $17.5 billion loan before the bailout either. SUCH A DEAL !!!!


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## mbedle (Oct 8, 2014)

Actually the government took a $11.2 billon lost on the GM bailout and took a $20 billion gain on the AIG bailout. As far as the Trapp Family Lodge EB-5 program, I think that is still ongoing but having a hard time finding investors.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Oh, they are getting their visas.  But* are they getting them for creating jobs like they promised?*



No.  The "jobs created" metric these programs use and the absurd stretches of logic they employ to greatly boost the numbers is a complete farce.  It's laughable.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> AIG was one of them?


Not only did the government get back all it's money but they made a $22 billion dollar profit on the deal. Guess that helps offset the losses the government incurred with the GM deal. In other news Hank Greenberg (former CEO of AIG) & a large stakeholder in the company is sueing the government for $40 billion over the deal. The trial is going on right now. Geitner has been on the stand the past two days. Greenberg was not the CEO when the company nearly collasped.


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## mattchuck2 (Oct 8, 2014)

Just jumping in here because I read an interesting article today that says that yes, we made money off the AIG deal, but it really wasn't a great deal:



> Finally, Sorkin again makes the annoying assertion on the AIG bailout that, "we got our money back — with more than $22 billion in profit."
> 
> This one deserves derision. Access to liquidity back in 2008-2009 carried an enormous premium. We gave $192 billion to AIG at a time when other companies were dying for cash. We would have made an enormous profit if we had invested government cash almost anywhere. For example, if we lent $192 billion to Dean Baker's Excellent Hedge Fund, which used it to invest in the S&P 500 and then split the gains with the government, the country would have pocketed over $100 billion from the deal. So would Dean Baker's Excellent Hedge Fund.



Article here:
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs...-aig-was-a-way-to-give-money-to-goldman-sachs


----------



## mattchuck2 (Oct 8, 2014)

Sorry, double post


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## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2014)

mbedle said:


> Actually the government took a $11.2 billon lost on the GM bailout and took a $20 billion gain on the AIG bailout. As far as the Trapp Family Lodge EB-5 program, I think that is still ongoing but having a hard time finding investors.



Wow.  You're right:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/30/us-autos-gm-treasury-idUSBREA3T0MR20140430

The last I heard was a certain President touting all the benefits and how we made out like bandits.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 8, 2014)

mattchuck2 said:


> Just jumping in here because I read an interesting article today that says that yes, we made money off the AIG deal, but it really wasn't a great deal:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah lets monday morning QB investment returns and say it was a bad deal. 

If it was so easy the financial collapse wouldn't have happened in the first place. 

And the suggestion to put everything in a hedge fund, where they charge 2% plus an average of 30% of the profit, yeah thats a great idea.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 8, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> *The last I heard was a certain President touting all the benefits and how we made out like bandits.*



The intention was never to bail out GM, that was a farce.  The intention, and achieved goal, was to bail out the various Unions that donate millions of dollars annually to Democratic candidates.  

While not widely reported by the biased media, if you follow the bizarre financial structure of the deals (including Chrysler), that fact becomes overtly obvious.    If this subject interests you, see story/link below.



> President Obama touts the bailout of General  Motors and Chrysler as one of the signature successes of his administration. He argues that the estimated $23 billion the taxpayers  lost was worth paying to avoid massive job losses. However, our research  finds that the president could have both kept the auto makers running  and avoided losing money.  The  preferential treatment given to the United Auto Workers accounts for the  American taxpayers' entire losses from the bailout. Had the UAW  received normal treatment in standard bankruptcy proceedings, the  Treasury would have recouped its entire investment. Three irregularities  in the bankruptcy case resulted in a windfall to the UAW.




http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303768104577462650268680454


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## mattchuck2 (Oct 8, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Yeah lets monday morning QB investment returns and say it was a bad deal.
> 
> If it was so easy the financial collapse wouldn't have happened in the first place.
> 
> And the suggestion to put everything in a hedge fund, where they charge 2% plus an average of 30% of the profit, yeah thats a great idea.



That was supposed to be a funny example of ONE way the gov't could have made a lot of money. It seemed to go completely over your head. Why not read the whole article, chief?

I'm just saying, Warren Buffett knew what he was doing and got really favorable deals from nervous companies. The government decided to just hand out cheap money to some companies, but not others, and didn't really make out as well as it could have.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 8, 2014)

GM was also gifted $45 billion in tax loss carry overs from the old GM. They're still writing that off to this day. Please tell me again how much we really lost on the GM deal.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 8, 2014)

By the way 94% of the TARP money spent was recoverd. GM is far & away the biggest loss.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 11, 2014)

Belt tightening has begun.  They are now handing out towels in the water park as generously as the Soviets allocated toilet paper.   You used to be able to take freely from a stack of towels. No you get one extremely small towel per person.  

Cabana rental rates have gone way up as well.  100% increase since opening if memory serves me correctly.  

The jumbo television now shows advertisements sold by Jay Peak.  

My prediction is that the resort is going to start nickel and diming wherever and whenever possible.  Somebody has to make those balloon payments.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 15, 2014)

There is an article in Thursday's Caledonian Record about the Renaissance Block in Newport.  Apparently the project is delayed due to difficulty finding investors.  The town is going to take up the matter.  One of the concerns is that if it is not torn down, as it was supposed to have been this fall, the building needs to be heated and have operational sprinklers.  Stenger was not available for comment.  The article did say that ground breaking is supposed to happen for AnC Bio this fall.  Tick tock...


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## thetrailboss (Oct 15, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> There is an article in Thursday's Caledonian Record about the Renaissance Block in Newport.  Apparently the project is delayed due to difficulty finding investors.  The town is going to take up the matter.  One of the concerns is that if it is not torn down, as it was supposed to have been this fall, the building needs to be heated and have operational sprinklers.  Stenger was not available for comment.  The article did say that ground breaking is supposed to happen for AnC Bio this fall.  Tick tock...



No surprise.  They've run into issues getting money for a number of reasons.


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 16, 2014)

*The birdcage.*

Haven't been out in these parts for a bit; good to see the boo birds still chirp.

Silly facts to folllow;

Towelgate.  There has been no change to the process of handing out park towels.  It may be that you were at the park on a day when an overzealous employee, if only there were more of them, began a personal rationing campaign.  Suffice to say this isn't emblematic of a belt-tightening effort.  If you see it again, pls let me know directly at swright@jaypeakresort.com if you're so inclined, thanks.

We've always shown ads on the Jumbo.  The technology on the machine is a pia and, in the past, has worked intermittently.  Even if this was a new effort, not sure it signifies anything more than being a good marketer.

Cabanagate.  Since opening, the rates for a full day rental has been $150 weekend and $100 midweek.  Last year we knocked the prices down by offering a 4 hour block option at $85/$60.

Carry on.



VTKilarney said:


> Belt tightening has begun.  They are now handing out towels in the water park as generously as the Soviets allocated toilet paper.   You used to be able to take freely from a stack of towels. No you get one extremely small towel per person.
> 
> Cabana rental rates have gone way up as well.  100% increase since opening if memory serves me correctly.
> 
> ...


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 16, 2014)

Steve@jpr said:


> Haven't been out in these parts for a bit; good to see the boo birds still chirp.
> 
> Silly facts to folllow;
> 
> ...




Ah ah !  But you've conveniently left out the fact that you put less air in the inflatable tubes to squeeze every last penny out of the compressor.  Airgate !


----------



## Steve@jpr (Oct 16, 2014)

*Mon Dieu!*

Actually, I'm blowing them (up) myself.

That's a free one.




fbrissette said:


> Ah ah !  But you've conveniently left out the fact that you put less air in the inflatable tubes to squeeze every last penny out of the compressor.  Airgate !


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 16, 2014)

Steve@jpr said:


> *Towelgate.  There has been no change to the process of handing out park towels*.



That did seem like quite a bit of a stretch in terms of a way to save money.

My personal, _"Jay Peak canary-in-the-coalmine"_ metric to gauge potential financial problems will be if the food quality in Alice's Kitchen begins to suffer.   After sobbing first of course.


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 16, 2014)

*Full disclosure*

In the interest of it, we've done a particularly shitty job being consistent in there, AT, the last three years (some meals great, some average, more than a few downright bad), and we need to do a much better job, starting with spending more $ on leadership, going forward.




BenedictGomez said:


> That did seem like quite a bit of a stretch in terms of a way to save money.
> 
> My personal, _"Jay Peak canary-in-the-coalmine"_ metric to gauge potential financial problems will be if the food quality in Alice's Kitchen begins to suffer.   After sobbing first of course.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 16, 2014)

I could have sworn that the first year the park was open we paid less for a cabana - but I have no reason to doubt what you have said.

As far as the towels are concerned, every single time we went earlier this year (multiple times) towels were left out for the taking.  Many towels.  On our last two visits they were handed out by the cashier, who gave one towel per person.  (Two cashiers were in on it each time.)

I don't recall ever seeing local advertising on the television, either.

To be clear, I am not knocking these perceived changes.  (Well... the towel one is annoying if it wasn't just bad luck.)  If Jay Peak wants to enhance revenues, power to them.  It's not as if the advertising bothered me.  If it helps Jay then I am all for it.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2014)

Still going...the State and Jay are looking worse and worse:

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/sens...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-d17dad5162-405558657


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Oct 23, 2014)

I had written a lot, but I just hit delete because it is this simple:  This is a complete and utter train wreck as far as the future of EB-5 is concerned with Stenger/Quiros.  Only a fool would hand them money now.  They better have financing in place to complete the Burke hotel.

And I am reading this correctly?  The "collateral" for the IOUs is a business entity with no actual assets?  If true, they'd be better off owning snake oil futures! 

Would anyone invest money with someone who claims it was a "communications error" to take nine months to tell investors that their equity interest has been wiped out?

How Brent Raymond still has a job is beyond me.  As long as he does, nobody should park any money in a Vermont EB-5 program.


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## mbedle (Oct 23, 2014)

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the hotel all ready funded? Can investors pull out at any time or is there a cutoff, at which point they are locked into it?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 23, 2014)

mbedle said:


> If I'm not mistaken, isn't the hotel all ready funded? Can investors pull out at any time or is there a cutoff, at which point they are locked into it?


Nobody really knows.  In April, a couple of months before construction began, Stenger said that Burke was 25% funded.  Whether he was referring to the hotel or the entire slate of projects is anyone's guess.

I've heard rumors that work is going to stop on the hotel once the outside walls are up, but I haven't put much stock in these rumors given the sources.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 23, 2014)

What's sad about this is that the facilities on the mountain itself have not benefited one bit from all of the EB-5 money.  This would be okay if the EB-5 projects generated revenues that could be used to improve mountain infrastructure.  But with things being such a mess, and balloon payments coming due, who knows if that will happen.

If Jay wants to keep those hotels full they are going to need to make some improvements to the mountain at some point - if for no other reason than to keep up with their competition.

And who knows what this does to the odds of the expansion of the ski area itself.

IMHO the best way out of this mess is to sell Jay and all of the associated businesses as a package.  Arrange a deal that will immediately pay the investors something (even if it is not what they invested).  If I was investor, I'd think VERY long and hard about getting something rather than nothing, so I think this could work.  It would put all of this mess in the past and let the ski area move forward.  The infrastructure is sufficient that a fairly major company may be tempted.


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## fbrissette (Oct 23, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What's sad about this is that the facilities on the mountain itself have not benefited one bit from all of the EB-5 money.  This would be okay if the EB-5 projects generated revenues that could be used to improve mountain infrastructure.  But with things being such a mess, and balloon payments coming due, who knows if that will happen.



This will eventually happen if Jay Peak makes more money.   And  making more money is ultimately the reason behind all of this EB5 thing. To be fair: new tram cabins, skyhaus, new stateside chalet and improved snow making capabilities are benefits to skiers.  I would trade all of this for the West Bowl in a second but that's another topic.



VTKilarney said:


> If Jay wants to keep those hotels full they are going to need to make some improvements to the mountain at some point - if for no other reason than to keep up with their competition.



From what I've heard, winter reservations are at an all-time high.  



VTKilarney said:


> And who knows what this does to the odds of the expansion of the ski area itself.



Again from what I've heard, West Bowl is slowly (very slowly) moving forward.



VTKilarney said:


> IMHO the best way out of this mess is to sell Jay and all of the associated businesses as a package.  Arrange a deal that will immediately pay the investors something (even if it is not what they invested).  If I was investor, I'd think VERY long and hard about getting something rather than nothing, so I think this could work.  It would put all of this mess in the past and let the ski area move forward.  The infrastructure is sufficient that a fairly major company may be tempted.



Sell Jay ?????    They could sell the tramhouse as condo units and pay back the investors.  But then the jobs associated with the hotel would be gone (with the green cards presumably ?).

Seriously, the only way this was going to work with the hotel making money and creating jobs, was for the investors getting their money back very very slowly (as is the current deal) or not getting their money back at all.  A 5-year interest free loan was never going to cut it and frankly (no matter how badly this was presented to investors) you had to be an idiot to think you would get all of your money back after 5 years.


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## machski (Oct 23, 2014)

All this and now I see Peaks wants to get in on the EB-5 action at Mount Snow.  They have big plans for all new Carinthia Base and Housing and in their Magazine/Brochure, they are holding up Jay as the poster child for success with the EB-5 program.  Hmmm, VT may need to re-examine this statewide EB-5 thing to ensure it is sustainable.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 23, 2014)

IMHO, Peak's plans are dead in the water thanks to Jay and the state.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 23, 2014)

I read that article expecting something new but it was essentially an interview with the investors' attorney basically regurgitating the same old allegations and arguments that have been made before.

1. Investors sign contracts clearly stating they are investors and not creditors, and that they are limited partners whose interests can be changed at any time.
2.  Hotel and other projects successfully completed.
3. Investors get their greencards.
4. Their unsecured limited partnership interests are converted to unsecured note holders and the investors aren't notified for five months of the change (that they had no ability or right to stop).
5.  Investors claim that they were originally told this was a loan (despite the fact the rules of the program, their contract, and a simple google search of "EB-5" clearly lay out that it was not..) and also claim that Stenger told them they would get their money back right away.  They also make unsupported allegations of fraud.
6.  Investors are offered a chance to look at the finances but refuse because they don't want to sign a confidentiality agreement. (And it would possibly defeat their unsupported allegations of fraud- And its not what they wanted anyway)
7.  Investors are offered a security guaranty on their converted note interests-- but demand a better security agreement (that would likely violate other security/loan agreements held by Jay on their equipment/facilities)
8.  VT Digger presents one sided articles that parrot the investor's claims while relying on letters to the editor to get the other side of the story.  They examine 400 pages of documents provided by Jay to the center--- and the most damning evidence of impropriety they can come up with is that the center treats Stenger with respect.   In the process they get a bump in readership because naysayers who want the center and EB5 program to fail due to their own political or personal agendas are eager for stuff to repeat at dinner parties.
9.  Investors become harder to obtain because of increased competition in the market (more EB-5 centers),  slowdown in the world economy, and the stink raised by the investors trying to extort a better deal. 

Same story, different day.  If anything, the fact the investors balked at reviewing the financials because they didn't want to sign a confidentiality agreement (a standard business practice when examining financials) is telling as to their real motives.


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## Smellytele (Oct 23, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I read that article expecting something new but it was essentially an interview with the investors' attorney basically regurgitating the same old allegations and arguments that have been made before.
> 
> 1. Investors sign contracts clearly stating they are investors and not creditors, and that they are limited partners whose interests can be changed at any time.
> 2.  Hotel and other projects successfully completed.
> ...



You are in the top 10 for longest posts.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *How Brent Raymond still has a job is beyond me.*  As long as he does, nobody should park any money in a Vermont EB-5 program.



That bit's astounding.  Until you think about two things:

1) He's a government employee, which is almost like being in the mafia.  They're impossible to get rid of.
2) If Raymond gets fired, State of Vermont is de facto admitting their negligence & guilt in the matter.  Not gonna' happen.

This gets worse from here before it gets better.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2014)

> *“I’ve been shafted by a well-calculated system that was well-known from  the outset because if they had presented it the way they’ve done it, I  can’t believe anyone would have put their money in."*



I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I imagine Stenger is at risk here if the investor's allegations regarding his commentary can be proven.



> *Stenger... also referred Sutton to a federal filing  known as the I829 that “shows where ALL the investor funds were spent.”*



 Oh, he "showed" a Federal filing form?   Oh,,,,,well,,,,clearly nothing to see here then! ROFL.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, he "showed" a Federal filing form?   Oh,,,,,well,,,,clearly nothing to see here then! ROFL.



The "I-829 filing" is not a form.  It is a form with supporting evidence.  In this case, it requires detailed invoices, receipts, tax returns, audited financial statements, bank statements, quarterly tax return filings, etc - over a three year period to show that there has been an ongoing commercial enterprise.  This application is filed on behalf of the investor.  This means they have had access to all that information all along and haven't been able to come up with any fraud.

So, yeah....  Nothing to see here except a bunch of folks getting trolled by investors who are trying to extort a better result for themselves at the expense of Jay, Burke and future business investment in VT.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 23, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> You are in the top 10 for longest posts.



And now because you quoted my post, so are you.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> *The "I-829 filing" is not a form.  It is a form with supporting evidence.*



No.  It's a total joke; and it would be considered absolutely worthless from an audit trail perspective here.  

Which leads to the most interesting part of the entire article:



> *Sutton and the investors have pooled their resources and hired a  forensic accountant.* They have insisted that Stenger allow Dr. Michael  Crain to review the books. In August, Stenger said accounting staff was  on vacation when Crain wanted to visit Jay Peak, and in September,  Stenger told the investors they were in the middle of tax season.



Certified Fraud Examiner.  I wish he had a team of people though, this is going to be a pretty big job.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 23, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> This will eventually happen if Jay Peak makes more money.   And  making more money is ultimately the reason behind all of this EB5 thing.


I'm not convinced that Jay is turning a profit when all of the business up there are combined - at least enough of a profit to pay back investors.  I hope it is, but there is a MASSIVE amount of overhead to keep the new infrastructure going.  The key is the off-season, and I'm skeptical that the off-seaon is at the level that they need.  To be fair, it seems to be improving.  Just the other day there were tons of families up there for a hockey tournament, for example.



fbrissette said:


> From what I've heard, winter reservations are at an all-time high.


They should be with everything open now.  I have no doubt that Jay is doing very well in the winter.  No doubt at all.  But the question is if increased winter revenues justifies the increase in year-round operating expenses.  



fbrissette said:


> Again from what I've heard, West Bowl is slowly (very slowly) moving forward.


Good news if true.

Bottom line: If the financials painted a good picture for Jay, Stenger would have been chomping at the bit to release them - if for no other reason than it would reassure potential future investors.  But he hasn't done that.  Ask yourself why.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> No.  It's a total joke; and it would be considered absolutely worthless from an audit trail perspective here.
> 
> Which leads to the most interesting part of the entire article:
> 
> ...



He might get that team but they will be working for the Vermont State Police.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *I'm not convinced that Jay is turning a profit when all of the business up there are combined *- at least enough of a profit to pay back investors.  I hope it is, but *there is a MASSIVE amount of overhead to keep the new infrastructure going.  The key is the off-season, and I'm skeptical that the off-seaon is at the level that they need.*



Pay attention to the golf course, that should be the canary in the coalmine given how expensive they are to maintain.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen the tell-tale 3" diameter star-shaped weeds in the fairway at a beautiful course where there were none before.  That's often an indicator.   I've only played Jay's course once, about 2 years ago.  Gorgeous layout.


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## fbrissette (Oct 23, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Pay attention to the golf course, that should be the canary in the coalmine given how expensive they are to maintain.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen the tell-tale 3" diameter star-shaped weeds in the fairway at a beautiful course where there were none before.



Well, I played the golf course last Sunday and did not see any weeds.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> He might get that team but they will be working for the Vermont State Police.



One would hope but I don't think so.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Oct 24, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Pay attention to the golf course, that should be the canary in the coalmine given how expensive they are to maintain.  I cant tell you how many times I've seen the tell-tale 3" diameter star-shaped weeds in the fairway at a beautiful course where there were none before.  That's often an indicator.   I've only played Jay's course once, about 2 years ago.  Gorgeous layout.



Not always a tell tale sign.  Killington's course sees very little use and isn't tremendously well maintained according to friends and family that play there often.  I assume Killington makes some money.


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## mbedle (Oct 24, 2014)

Based on a corporate record search, there appears to be a lot of different entities that operate at the Jay Peak Resort. So, failure of one, does not necessarily mean the downfall of the entire resort.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 24, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I read that article expecting something new but it was essentially an interview with the investors' attorney basically regurgitating the same old allegations and arguments that have been made before.



Tony Sutton is an investor in the Tram Haus, not their attorney.  They only say that about four or five times.    

The investors recognize that this is an at-risk investment, but Stenger apparently "promised" them a return on their investment.  T


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

A response from the investors offering more info on who they are and what they were allegedly promised:

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/tram...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-7ec16ae848-405558657


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## 56fish (Oct 26, 2014)

To Noreasterbackcountry - thanks for the sanity


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## Masskier (Oct 26, 2014)

Umm,  So only four out of 35 investors are willing to go on record about this.  They put the bulk of their net worth into an investment with no guarantee of getting a cent back.  They don't acknowlege the PPM's, disclousures, and other operatring documents they agreed to and signed, that governs the way the entity operates.  

Vt Agency of Commerce and Community Development corrects several inaccurate statements in an Oct 5th article that appeared in the VT Digger here;

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/13/patricia-moulton-vtdiggers-eb-5-story-inaccurate/

And Sutton's responds here,

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/phase-1-eb-5-investors-respond-moulton-commentary/


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## Masskier (Oct 26, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I read that article expecting something new but it was essentially an interview with the investors' attorney basically regurgitating the same old allegations and arguments that have been made before.
> 
> 1. Investors sign contracts clearly stating they are investors and not creditors, and that they are limited partners whose interests can be changed at any time.
> 2.  Hotel and other projects successfully completed.
> ...



Agreed,  It is sounding more and more like you are correct.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 26, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Umm,  So only four out of 35 investors are willing to go on record about this.  They put the bulk of their net worth into an investment with no guarantee of getting a cent back.  They don't acknowlege the PPM's, disclousures, and other operatring documents they agreed to and signed, that governs the way the entity operates.
> 
> Vt Agency of Commerce and Community Development corrects several inaccurate statements in an Oct 5th article that appeared in the VT Digger here;
> 
> ...


Well, I guess everything is fine then and the remaining EB-5 projects are on schedule.  
/sarcasm


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Agreed,  It is sounding more and more like you are correct.





Masskier said:


> Umm,  So only four out of 35 investors are willing to go on record about this.  They put the bulk of their net worth into an investment with no guarantee of getting a cent back.  They don't acknowlege the PPM's, disclousures, and other operatring documents they agreed to and signed, that governs the way the entity operates.
> 
> Vt Agency of Commerce and Community Development corrects several inaccurate statements in an Oct 5th article that appeared in the VT Digger here;
> 
> ...



Yet another example of why it's a good idea to read and comprehend the article.  These folks all consistently said that *Stenger made a promise to repay their investment WITH a set interest rate.*  Of course the EB-5 program says that it is supposed to be "at risk", but if the head of the project looks you in the eye and makes that kind of promise it could be a major red flag.  Again, these folks and this issue is not going away it appears.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 26, 2014)

Masskier, 

I keep coming back to the fact that it is not Vermont values to have high esteem for someone who engages in dishonesty and/or deception.  You can believe that it was a mere "communications error" to take nine months to tell investors that their equity interest was wiped out.  I don't.  And we shall see what other shenanigans, if any, are uncovered.

But I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values.  I hope people keep the apparent difference in values in mind when they decide whether or not other people are trustworthy enough to do business with - especially when someone is offering an investment worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Masskier,
> 
> I keep coming back to the fact that it is not Vermont values to have high esteem for someone who engages in dishonesty and/or deception.  You can believe that it was a "communications error" to take nine months to tell investors that their equity interest was wiped out.  I don't.  And we shall see what other shenanigans, if any, are uncovered.
> 
> But I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values.  I hope people keep the apparent difference in values in mind when they decide if someone is trustworthy enough to do business with.



I told my brother-in-law that I have learned a simple rule in life: wherever there is a lot of money in one place there is a high risk of greed and wrongdoing.  A project of this size does need scrutiny and questioning to be sure that things are what they should be and that there is nothing shady.  

I lived in the shadow of Jay and Burke for a majority of my life and watched them.  I have a lot of respect for Bill but frankly what I've been seeing and hearing has been both surprising and not so surprising.  Surprising that a guy who I've seen as being frank, has developed and used one of the slickest and most well-oiled PR machines, and has overall a great relationship with customers "all of the sudden" just "forgot" to announce a major change in financial and corporate structures to his business partners.  That does not make sense to me.  However, as a guy who is always optimistic and has for years successfully marketed a remote, cold, windy, icy resort as the best thing since sliced bread, I'm not at all surprised to hear that folks claim that he made personal assurances to repay these folks with a very good rate of return.

I am very disappointed with how my (original home) State has completely effed up here.  As many have pointed out, the perceived "advantage" of Jay and other Vermont EB-5 projects was the "fact" that the State was "overseeing" these projects in order to protect all involved.  It looks like all involved hyped that fact.  Now we are learning that there is no "oversight" at all and that the State agencies are merely a PR machine and nothing more.  The right response would have been to say "time out" and to ask for more information from both sides to ensure that things are fine instead of spilling ink on defending one of the parties with no concern for the investors.  This will hurt future investment in Vermont, but considering what I've seen, the administration doesn't care.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 26, 2014)

Vermont vs. Massachusetts values?  Seriously????? Give me a break. No state has a monopoly on "good values." There are assholes and crooked businessmen everywhere.  I'm not saying Stenger is, I'll let the courts decide that.    
.
I was born in Mass, but this head has hit the pillow to finish the day in Vermont more than any other place.  If you don't think VT has it's fair share of shady businessmen, you're completely naive.  I've been ripped off in VT just as much as any other of the 12 states I've called home. 

 I live in NH now.  Plenty of crooked businessmen here too.


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## Harvey (Oct 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values.



I'd like to see this specifically laid out.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> ...and Massachusetts values.



Didn't know there was such a thing as Massachusetts values.   May be this explains why they cheer for the dirty Boston Bruins.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 26, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> Didn't know there was such a thing as Massachusetts values.   May be this explains why they cheer for the dirty Boston Bruins.



We value plenty. Like not having to drive an hour to get groceries.


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## Smellytele (Oct 26, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> We value plenty. Like not having to drive an hour to get groceries.



or dive like a soccer team when someone skates within 3 feet of you.


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## LONGBOARDR (Oct 26, 2014)

I think it is relevant to remind ourselves who is in charge at Jay.
Q is the majority owner, and Jay is part of Q resorts.
William Kelly  is Jays legal counselor, COO and Quiro's long term right hand man (consigliere?).
They are very shrewd and savvy business men with many different business enterprises.

IMO they wrote the agreements and are pulling the financial levers here. (i.e., dissolving partnerships)
While Bill may genuinely care about Jay and the NEK, for them it is all about the money and nothing else.
Unfortunately, I think Bill has to toe the line of Q's intentions.
The reports in VT Digger are useful as they do reveal real intentions of Q.

Bring on the snow


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

LONGBOARDR said:


> I think it is relevant to remind ourselves who is in charge at Jay.
> Q is the majority owner, and Jay is part of Q resorts.
> William Kelly  is Jays legal counselor, COO and Quiro's long term right hand man (consigliere?).
> They are very shrewd and savvy business men with many different business enterprises.
> ...



I think this is a VERY good observation and point.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Umm,  So only four out of 35 investors are willing to go on record about this.  They put the bulk of their net worth into an investment with no guarantee of getting a cent back.  They don't acknowlege the PPM's, disclousures, and other operatring documents they agreed to and signed, that governs the way the entity operates.
> 
> Vt Agency of Commerce and Community Development corrects several inaccurate statements in an Oct 5th article that appeared in the VT Digger here;
> 
> ...



It also seems very odd to be criticizing the very investors who are putting up their own money and accepting the risk for Burke/Jay so that certain third-party real estate investors can reap the benefits of a better resort to sell their own real estate.  But what do I know?  :dunce:


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 26, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> * You can believe that it was a mere "communications error" to take nine months to tell investors that their equity interest was wiped out.  I don't.  And we shall see what other shenanigans, if any, are uncovered.*



Don't forget that the _"delay"_ happened during a KEY fundraising time-frame and spanned that overseas investor trip to China.   

Honestly?  Anyone who doesn't at this point believe this affair is absurdly shady is either legitimately naive, or "willfully" naive.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 26, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Don't forget that the _"delay"_ happened during a KEY fundraising time-frame and spanned that overseas investor trip to China.
> 
> Honestly?  Anyone who doesn't at this point believe this affair is absurdly shady is either legitimately naive, or "willfully" naive.



The timing is too coincidental.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Masskier (Oct 27, 2014)

Well I'm still not convinced.  Unless some new facts are uncovered, this is pretty much the same story.  One of the local papers is investigating this, maybe they will come up with something new.   The VT Digger reported that there are now more than a 1,000 investors and over $500 million raised.  There seems to be only four that are making the allegations.  Unfortunately we are not privy to the offering docs.  One of the reasons why everything is disclosed and spelled out is to avoid the "He said, She said" later on.  The Docs are what governs the rights of all parties.

Not sure about the MA values, VT values statement.  Any state that you do business in you expect to be treated fairly and honestly.  

The allegation about how the exit strategy was implemented was answered by the state, (quoted from the VT Diggers article)

"Some of the EB-5 investors in the private limited partnership that  financed the construction of the Tram Haus Lodge objected to an action  taken by Bill Stenger, the General Partner, that was within the  authority of the agreement entered into and signed by each limited  partner. Mr. Stenger’s action was not in conflict with any federal law  or regulations enacted for the EB5 program. Of note, the Jay Peak Tram  Haus Lodge is one of the few EB-5 projects in the country to begin to  pay back its investors, and each investor has obtained permanent United  States residency."

I certainly agree that this whole program needs to be monitored and regulated a lot more.  And additional regulation is already starting.  You would think that all investors would be accredited.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

Masskier said:


> *over $500 million raised*.



With ZERO financial accountability, which is so positively staggering it's almost unbelievable, and the part of the story I'm focusing on. 

 To me, the investor's concern is just a sideshow & a distraction.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But I think what we are seeing here is a difference between Vermont values and Massachusetts values.



What about holding people to their word as they promise in a contract?  Do Vermonters value that?  I think Vermonters are smart enough to figure out when someone gets what they want then suddenly changes their mind about a deal--- what might really be going on.  Especially when what those people are claiming is directly contradicted by their agreement.

To me it seems far more likely the folks now have what they wanted (the greencard) and are superimposing their rosy expectations about an ROI over what they were actually promised.  But that's just me.  I recognize that someone could reasonably believe the investors over Stenger.  Fine. 

But as a sixth generation Vermonter who was born and raised there, but now lives in MA, I don't pretend to speak for what other Vermonters believe... or avoid the real discussion by getting into some "us versus them" tangent that has nothing to do with the real discussion.  I've lived in a lot of different places.. and guess what?  There are liars everywhere.  There are good folks everywhere.  And nobody has a monopoly on good values.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> With ZERO financial accountability



Except for the audited financial statements, receipts, W-2's, and other documents with the USCIS filings for each investor... and the 400 pages of communications with the regional center by Jay.. and the accessibility to all the financial documents and communications by the press through FOIA and the VT open records act.  Except for all that there is zero accountability...


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 27, 2014)

This is like East vs West rap wars


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Except for the audited financial statements, receipts, W-2's, and other documents with the USCIS filings for each investor... and the 400 pages of communications with the regional center by Jay.. and the accessibility to all the financial documents and communications by the press through FOIA and the VT open records act.  Except for all that there is zero accountability...



When you say things like the above, it's painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, financially speaking.   You clearly have no accounting background, do not work in finance, and have never worked on an audit a day in your life.  I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2014)

I think we are at the point where it is clear where people stand on the issue.  I'm content to let things play out and we shall see whose instinct was correct.


----------



## Domeskier (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm still waiting for Larry, Darryl and Darryl to weigh in.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *I think we are at the point where it is clear where people stand on the issue*.  I'm content to let things play out and we shall see whose instinct was correct.



My "stance" is one of complete uncertainly, which is the only possible answer at the moment - and THAT'S the problem.  

I have absolutely no idea what's going on, other than gross negligence on both the part of Jay Peak and the State of Vermont.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> When you say things like the above, it's painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, financially speaking.   You clearly have no accounting background, do not work in finance, and have never worked on an audit a day in your life.  I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.



Yeah, because invoices, receipts, banks statements and the other items listed as being required on the USCIS filing are never used in audits.  Ever.


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> When you say things like the above, it's painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, financially speaking.   You clearly have no accounting background, do not work in finance, and have never worked on an audit a day in your life.  I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.



That's funny.  I would think never having done those things would be worth a lot of points. And it would show obvious mercy from God if you never had to deal with any of that hell.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> That's funny.  I would think never having done those things would be worth a lot of points. And it would show obvious mercy from God if you never had to deal with any of that hell.



+1


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Yeah, because invoices, receipts, banks statements and the other items listed as being required on the USCIS filing are never used in audits.  Ever.



Good grief.......



Cannonball said:


> That's funny.  I would think never having done those things would be worth a lot of points. And it would show obvious mercy from God if you never had to deal with any of that hell.



To each, their own.  I think finance and economics are fun.  Some people read fiction for enjoyment in their free time, I look at housing reports, unemployment data, and economic outlooks.  Yup, I'm a wild man at parties.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> My "stance" is one of complete uncertainly, which is the only possible answer at the moment - and THAT'S the problem.
> 
> I have absolutely no idea what's going on, other than gross negligence on both the part of Jay Peak and the State of Vermont.


Good point - with one exception.  We know two things:
1) The relationship between Jay Peak, the State of Vermont, and the Tramhaus investors has taken a big hit.  That alone is very troubling when it comes to the ability of ski areas in Vermont to attract this type of investment.  Even if you believe that there is nothing wrong, you still have to admit that the negative impact on access to this type of capital is an unfortunate consequence of whatever lies beneath.
2) At best this was a major public relations screwup.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 27, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Yeah, because invoices, receipts, banks statements and the other items listed as being required on the USCIS filing are never used in audits.  Ever.



I think you are over simplifying things just a tad. You are making it seeming like they can just whip open Quick books and it's done.


----------



## Domeskier (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> To each, their own.  I think finance and economics are fun.  Some people read fiction for enjoyment in their free time, I look at housing reports, unemployment data, and economic outlooks.  Yup, I'm a wild man at parties.....



I heard the cops had to be called in on you guys when Vail released its annual report last year...


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Even if you believe that there is nothing wrong, you still have to admit that the negative impact on access to this type of capital is an unfortunate consequence of whatever lies beneath.



Agreed.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I think you are over simplifying things just a tad. *You are making it seeming like they can just whip open Quick books and it's done.*



You mean it doesn't work like that?   Dude, they're apparently holding onto receipts.  RECEIPTS I tell you! They're iron-clad impenetrable at this point.  Bulletproof.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> I think you are over simplifying things just a tad. You are making it seeming like they can just whip open Quick books and it's done.



I'd say claiming there is "zero" oversight or other such equivocal statements are oversimplifications versus pointing out the fact that there are at least three layers of oversight built into the process.   (Four if you count the investors' access to the financial information)


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 27, 2014)

Every time I read this thread all I can think about is this....


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> *Every time I read this thread all I can think about is this....*



Good example.

 In _Dumb and Dumber_, the briefcase contained $5M dollars. So we need 100 of those $5M suitcases for a Jay Peak comparable.

This thread needs a Vegas-style Over/Under on the sum the forensic accounting team wont be able to verify after reviewing all the records.   I'll set the Over/Under at $10M.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 27, 2014)

Except they would have to forge the bank records as well.  Or are the banks in on your grand fraud conspiracy too? 

So far we have Stenger, Quiros, everyone at the Regional Center, Jay Peak's management, the investors' attorneys, the media, the USCIS officers reviewing records, and the banks... Am I missing anyone?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Except they would have to forge the bank records as well.  Or are the banks in on your grand fraud conspiracy too?
> 
> So far we have Stenger, Quiros, everyone at the Regional Center, Jay Peak's management, the investors' attorneys, the media, the USCIS officers reviewing records, and the banks... Am I missing anyone?



I'm not alleging "fraud", but I am predicting the forensic accountant wont be able to tie out to the full, massive, approximately $500,000,000 sum, for reasons which may or may not be fraudulent.   I'm fully expecting sloppy, incomplete, and generally laughably incompetent record keeping on Jay Peak's part via what little we already know of this matter (hopefully I'm wrong).    

But FYI, in matters of fraud like you speak of, you generally don't need _"hoards"_ of people to be involved in an embezzlement "conspiracy".  It's not like the Hollywood movies, it's exactly the opposite.  It's typically one well-placed person, perhaps a few people.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 27, 2014)

Re: $500 million raised

We were talking about that tonight is that it seems obvious that they DON'T have $500 mill in the bank. If they did, ALL the projects would be well underway. They are not. I think they've got a lot of investors lined up but not $500 mill.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 27, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Re: $500 million raised
> 
> We were talking about that tonight is that it seems obvious that they DON'T have $500 mill in the bank. If they did, ALL the projects would be well underway. They are not. I think they've got a lot of investors lined up but not $500 mill.
> 
> ...



That's what the "I owe you" are for!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 27, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> I'd say claiming there is "zero" oversight or other such equivocal statements are oversimplifications versus pointing out the fact that there are at least three layers of oversight built into the process.   (Four if you count the investors' access to the financial information)



Really? Pray tell, who is doing this oversight? Before this Kurfuffle, nobody really. We've only spent twenty pages going over and over that point.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Re: $500 million raised
> 
> We were talking about that tonight is that it seems obvious that they DON'T have $500 mill in the bank. If they did, ALL the projects would be well underway. They are not. I think *they've got a lot of investors lined up but not $500 mill.*



It's in one of those previous VTDigger articles.  I think they're currently somewhere north of $300M+ and south of $400M IIRC.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 27, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's in one of those previous VTDigger articles.  I think they're currently somewhere north of $300M+ and south of $400M IIRC.



Makes sense. Thanks. 


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## thetrailboss (Oct 27, 2014)

MadMadWorld said:


> That's what the "I owe you" are for!



 sure as hell hope not! 


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## Masskier (Oct 27, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Re: $500 million raised
> 
> We were talking about that tonight is that it seems obvious that they DON'T have $500 mill in the bank. If they did, ALL the projects would be well underway. They are not. I think they've got a lot of investors lined up but not $500 mill.
> 
> ...



I don't know, but that is what they are reporting. Here's the link,

http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/sense-betrayal-eb-5-investors-go-public/

And here's the quote

  "The number of investors in Jay Peak has grown to 1,089 immigrants who  have put up $544.5 million toward a series of projects Stenger and  Quiros hope to develop."

And that would explain why most of the projects are well underway.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 27, 2014)

Masskier said:


> I don't know, but that is what they are reporting. Here's the link,
> 
> http://vtdigger.org/2014/10/22/sense-betrayal-eb-5-investors-go-public/
> 
> ...



See BG's post


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2014)

Masskier said:


> "The number of investors in Jay Peak has grown to 1,089 immigrants who  have put up $544.5 million toward a series of projects Stenger and  Quiros hope to develop."
> 
> And *that would explain why most of the projects are well underway.*



  I don't believe what's bolded is the case.   I think the figure north of $300M is what's _spent_ so far, and I guess the figure you posted above is indeed the most recent figure in terms of what they've collected (it seems that way from the way VTDigger wrote it).   But there's a difference between collecting and spending money and just because they have it "put up" doesnt mean the projects are underway.  But what it does mean if VTDigger is correct is that they raised a LOT of money before this recent blow-up became public.  It's a ****load of money.   

Honestly, who really knows?   I don't know what to believe or what's accurate or not at this point.  I wish VTDigger would better pin down specifics in terms of "how much has been collected", "how much has been spent", and "how much more EB-5 money" do they additionally seek.  Start/Complete estimates would be nice, too.  Pretty basic and important facts.  All of which, by the way, should be public information and very easy for us to ascertain.........except they're not.   Jay Peak isnt telling, and the all-knowing State of Vermont government watchdog that makes Vermont the "Safest" EB-5 place to invest your money - doesnt have a clue either.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 28, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Really? Pray tell, who is doing this oversight? Before this Kurfuffle, nobody really. We've only spent twenty pages going over and over that point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



1. USCIS:  They do a review of the project after three years which involves the investors submitting the project's financials and proof of where the money went, including receipts, invoices, AND BANK RECORDS (among other things). 

2. State of Vermont:  The Regional Center has ongoing oversight over the project.  The VT Digger article acknowledges 400 pages of communication between the Center and Jay.  It acknowledges the presence of "reports"- which implies "reporting".  Plus audited reports have been submitted for the last two years... so it didn't just start "after this mess" as you claim.  

3.  The Press:  The press has access to the records submitted to USCIS and the Center by way of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and the similar state version of the act.  They've already reviewed the records from the Center.  It isn't clear if they've reviewed the USCIS records.

4.  The investors:  The financial information submitted to USCIS with the second filing is also reviewed by the attorneys who represent the investors.

We can argue all day about the quality of these different levels of review, and how effective they are, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they have "zero" impact. Just because something isn't perfect... or doesn't meet your standard of what you think should be done.. doesn't mean it fails to exist.   We've gone over this for 20 pages because you (and others) present an over simplified view of what is going on in order to support some ridiculous fraud allegation against Stenger.    

And as for the seeming incongruity between the investors on board and the amount of money- it likely has to do with the structure of the investment deals and USCIS approval of the first stage of the case.  I imagine all of the deals are conditioned on USCIS approvals of the initial petition, and right now there is a 14 month backlog for approvals of those petitions.  So there are likely a good number of folks who are in the pipeline but the money hasn't been committed.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> 1. USCIS:  They do a review of the project after three years which involves the investors submitting the project's financials and proof of where the money went, including receipts, invoices, AND BANK RECORDS (among other things).
> 
> 2. State of Vermont:  The Regional Center has ongoing oversight over the project.  The VT Digger article acknowledges 400 pages of communication between the Center and Jay.  It acknowledges the presence of "reports"- which implies "reporting".  Plus audited reports have been submitted for the last two years... so it didn't just start "after this mess" as you claim.
> 
> ...



If being direct and to the point is "an oversimplification" then I am guilty as charged I guess.  

Though I'm tempted to respond to each point, it's clear that you still don't understand what is going on here or what the article says.  There's no point in going round and round.  

VTDigger is using this recent issue as a means of investigating what is happening at Jay and how the EB-5 program is being run in Vermont.  As you point out, yes this is an "oversight" of sorts.  

As to the first point, there is a question as to what Jay is doing with the money it is receiving from the investors and how it is managing the investments.  This is not an issue of "how many jobs are being created" but an issue of internal operations.  Is the LP operating as it should?  Is it creating revenue adequate enough to repay the investors?  Is the money being funneled away to pay other investors?  As others have said, short of a lawsuit by the limited partners against the general partners, we may not get a real answer there.  

The second issue is the one that VTDigger has been going after as well and they have made a pretty clear case that the Vermont Regional Center is only a PR machine and nothing more.  VTDigger cites the 400 pages of Emails to show that there is not much oversight but instead discussion about damage control and image issues.  Because this involved (presumably) a private placement then I don't think that Vermont's Financial Services/Insurance Regulators will get involved.  So that leaves the question as to who is watching over what is being done.  VTDigger makes the case that it appears to be nobody really.  

And yes the USCIS is "supposed" to provide oversight, but that again is limited to ensuring that the program creates the jobs, that the demographic area allows for the investor to be in the $500,000 category, and that the paperwork is completed before issuing the Green Card.  There's been a lot of scrutiny over USCIS lately and it is evident that they don't have the resources to review things as adequately as they should...hence the backlog.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> VTDigger cites the 400 pages of Emails to show that there is not much oversight but instead discussion about damage control and image issues.



I went back and read that article to be sure I didn't have the wrong impression, but as far as I can tell they cite two emails out of 400 to support their case that the Center only does cheerleading and no oversight.  That's hardly clear and convincing evidence.

Even assuming that the Center took on some role of promoting the projects, USCIS instructional materials on the centers make it clear that the cheerleading role is entirely appropriate- and one of the main functions of a regional center.  This doesn't mean that they don't also perform oversight.  When you consider that the Center has an interest in making sure the programs that they approve succeed--- as well as attract future investment (and thus protect their oversight image), these functions are compatible.  Throw in there at the reputation of the state is at stake- there's even more incentive to do the oversight.



thetrailboss said:


> And yes the USCIS is "supposed" to provide oversight, but that again is limited to ensuring that the program creates the jobs, that the demographic area allows for the investor to be in the $500,000 category, and that the paperwork is completed before issuing the Green Card.



This isn't true.  The investors' second submission to USCIS involves ample evidence of where the money is spent.  Again, they are required to provide receipts, invoices and bank records to show the ongoing business and HOW it created the claimed number of jobs--- not just whether those jobs were created.  

You're right that USCIS has limited resources to do their investigations, which is why it takes so long for the approval of the second filing.  But this is because USCIS (and the officers who do those investigations) have an interest in preventing fraud and/or Ponzi schemes like the one in Chicago and therefore aren't just rubberstamping those approvals.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Though I'm tempted to respond to each point,* it's clear that you still don't understand what is going on here or what the article says.  There's no point in going round and round.  *



Precisely why I didn't bother replying.   

You can lead a horse to water, but if the horse doesn't understand (or willfully refuses to understand) what a lake is, there's really no point.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

Add me to the camp of people who no longer feel there is any point in replying.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 29, 2014)

You both just did reply.  

If you don't feel like discussing something with someone, just don't talk.  No need to get all dramatic and announce that you're taking your ball and going home. :lol:


----------



## MadMadWorld (Oct 29, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You both just did reply.
> 
> If you don't feel like discussing something with someone, just don't talk.  No need to get all dramatic and announce that you're taking your ball and going home. :lol:



This is some heavy shit. Do I smell a mod ski off?


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 29, 2014)

God forbid anybody ask for an explanation beyond "VT Digger says it is so" with you three.  It's not that I don't understand what the VT Digger articles have said, its that I question their conclusions.

You claim "There's zero oversight!" In response I lay out four layers of oversight.  You counter with "we've covered this already".  Really? Did we? 

You point out "VT Digger says they were cheerleaders",  I respond that it appears this is based on two emails. And you counter with "You obviously don't get it."  And you're right, I don't.  If the Center is only acting as a cheerleader, how is it that they could only come up with two emails to support that conclusion?  What about the other 300+?  Were they talking about skiing?  (Kinda like the inverse of this thread)

You claim, "The investors were duped", I respond by pointing out that everything Jay did was spelled out in the contract to which you accuse me of being a Ma-hole.  

You claim there must be some undiscovered fraud because of the amount of money at stake and the fact they haven't moved forward with all projects on their original schedule.  I point out USCIS reviews the financial information for each and every investor three years into the project- including bank records.  Something none of you have mentioned.  I point out that in addition to invoices and receipts the company provides bank records AND all that information gets reviewed by the attorneys for the investors.  I also point out that all of the projects as of two years ago are audited.  You respond by saying invoices and receipts could be forged.  Yeah, okay... but how about the bank records? Please explain how those are forged.  And how about the ongoing audits?  How could money from the newer projects be "ponzi'd" over to the older ones?  Your response is to completely ignore these facts and again say that I just don't get it.

That's not going in circles.  That's going down a bunch of dead end streets.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2014)

Hey at least you aren't posting up thinly veiled promotions for your own website anymore. Baby steps.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 29, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Hey at least you aren't posting up thinly veiled promotions for your own website anymore. Baby steps.




Tough crowd...


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 29, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> Tough crowd...



Sometimes the truth hurts


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> God forbid anybody ask for an explanation beyond "VT Digger says it is so" with you three.  It's not that I don't understand what the VT Digger articles have said, its that I question their conclusions.
> 
> You claim "There's zero oversight!" In response I lay out four layers of oversight.  You counter with "we've covered this already".  Really? Did we?
> 
> ...


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

The issue isn't believing VT Digger.  I am as skeptical of everything and anything.

The issue is one's ability to engage in critical thought.  It's safe to say that our belief as to what constitutes critical thought differs greatly - and I don't see that changing.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The issue isn't to believing VT Digger.  I am as skeptical of everything and anything.
> 
> The issue is one's ability to engage in critical thought.  It's safe to say that our opinions as to what constitutes critical thought differ greatly - and I don't see that changing.



I have no horse in this fight.  I get the points your are both making.  

Please attack the message and not the messenger.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2014)

Believe me, I hope that he is right.  I just realized that we have different methodology and that we will always be talking past each other.  But if I had to pick one of us to be correct it would be him.  If I had to bet money on it, well... let's just say my bet and my hope would be different.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 29, 2014)

My bet is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but likely closer to your viewpoint.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *The issue is one's ability to engage in critical thought.  It's safe to say that our belief as to what constitutes critical thought differs greatly* - and I don't see that changing.



Disagree.

It's definitely not that he doesn't understand people's comments.  

It's that he willfully and repeatedly,_ intentionally,_ fails to "understand" them.  But it's not trolling, it's something else; very odd.    Like maybe there's a familial dog in the fight somewhere or something.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Oct 30, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Like maybe there's a familial dog in the fight somewhere or something.



Now I'm in on the conspiracy!  Leave it to you.  Sometimes you remind me of the crazy uncle at Thanksgiving that insists Obama was born in Kenya and Israel is responsible for 9-11.  That said, I do appreciate when you bring facts or insights to the discussion.  The analysis over in the thread on Peak is a good example.  I can respect that.   Not the nutty conspiracy stuff though.

My dog in the fight is the state of Vermont.  I think that the unsupported allegations of fraud ultimately hurt future investment in the State.  I for one would like to see them finish the work they've started at Burke.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I see some evidence that suggest anything other than a run of the mill dispute between two parties to a contract.  What those (few) investors are doing is straight from the business litigation playbook.   What I won't do is go around trashing the reputations of the folks who work at the Center and Jay- without something more concrete. 

And before you accuse me of being a fanboy for the Q family, go over to the Burke thread and read what I think about Jr and his business judgment.  He's taken some concrete steps and said things that make it pretty clear he doesn't have a clue how to handle public relations.  In a perfect world, I'd like to see the investment continue, but with someone else at the helm. The way they've treated the locals is atrocious, and bodes poorly for what are likely going to be future decisions that more broadly affect the community.  

And I think there's a difference between being critical and critical thinking.  I haven't heard any of you propose how to improve the program (despite specifically asking) and instead seem intent on tearing it down.

I know BD wants to shut it down, but what do you others think?  Do you want to shut down the center and end EB-5 investment in VT?


----------



## Domeskier (Oct 30, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> I have no horse in this fight.



and



BenedictGomez said:


> Like maybe there's a familial dog in the fight somewhere or something.



Thread-jack - who would win in a fight between a horse and dog?


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 30, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> and
> 
> 
> 
> Thread-jack - who would win in a fight between a horse and dog?



I think this thread now needs to be locked.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> and
> 
> 
> 
> Thread-jack - who would win in a fight between a horse and dog?



Satan's Stairway always wins.


----------



## trackbiker (Oct 30, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> and
> 
> 
> Thread-jack - who would win in a fight between a horse and dog?



Geez, Now we are going to have the horse-people and the dog-people going at it!


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 30, 2014)

trackbiker said:


> Geez, Now we are going to have the horse-people and the dog-people going at it!




This is going to end up in a political debate.   Educate me in US politics.   The horse-people are the democrats or the republicans ? Romney is a horse person is he ?  But is he really a republican ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> This is going to end up in a political debate.   Educate me in US politics.   The horse-people are the democrats or the republicans ? Romney is a horse person is he ?  But is he really a republican ?



Just pay $500k to me and I will fill you in 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Domeskier (Oct 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Satan's Stairway always wins.



I believe the inaugural horse and dog fight on Satan's Staircase has been postponed indefinitely because, well, politics...


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 30, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Just pay $500k to me and I will fill you in 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Do I get my money back 5 years after you've filled me in ?


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> Do I get my money back 5 years after you've filled me in ?


Only if you are okay with a balloon payment.  You should also have VT Digger on speed dial.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> Do I get my money back 5 years after you've filled me in ?



Well.....let me consult with my legal counsel


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> I believe the inaugural horse and dog fight on Satan's Staircase has been postponed indefinitely because, well, politics...



:lol:


----------



## Cannonball (Oct 30, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> This is going to end up in a political debate.   Educate me in US politics.   The horse-people are the democrats or the republicans ? Romney is a horse person is he ?  But is he really a republican ?



Well he sure ain't a dog person!


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 1, 2014)

The most recent edition of Ski East magazine has an interview with Stenger.  It's the same old "so many more great things are coming" type interview that we have seen before.  

Has construction started on the AnC Bio plant?  They were supposed to start this fall.  PeakCM is hiring, so at least some things seem to be moving along.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2014)

Newport City told Stenger that the Renaissance Block has to start or that Stenger has to install fire suppression in the vacant building. They are opting for the former.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 1, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Newport City told Stenger that the Renaissance Block has to start or that *Stenger has to install fire suppression in the vacant building.* They are opting for the former.



What would this entail in terms of $$$?


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> What would this entail in terms of $$$?



I don't know.  They do have a few buildings.  Apparently they are going to proceed with the demo.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 2, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't know.  They do have a few buildings.  Apparently they are going to proceed with the demo.



May be they are just buying time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> May be they are just buying time.



Yeah the issue was that they are delayed on their project. Folks suspect that they don't have enough raised to proceed.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2014)

So if they don't have enough funds to proceed their gift to the town of Newport will be a large hole downtown?


----------



## gostan (Nov 2, 2014)

I guess Newport never heard of requiring a developer to require a bond or some other type of security.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So if they don't have enough funds to proceed their gift to the town of Newport will be a large hole downtown?



Exactly


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----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2014)

gostan said:


> *I guess* *Newport never heard of requiring a developer to require a bond or some other type of security*.


 
I'm not 100% sure I'd blame the town.  I'm guessing the $$$ is just so large, and the project considered so high-risk that they couldn't get a performance bond in place.  

Honestly, if you were in charge at the insurance company or bank would you issue one?  Were I in charge I'd tell my people to RUN from them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 3, 2014)

gostan said:


> I guess Newport never heard of requiring a developer to require a bond or some other type of security.



They probably took Stenger at his word that things would proceed.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## noreasterbackcountry (Nov 3, 2014)

If you go by what is said in the Free Press back in July, they weren't even planning on submitting the first petition for the Renaissance project to the Vermont Center until this September  ... http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../stenger-foreign-investment-vermont/12747335/ 

The plan would first have to be approved by the Vermont Center before it is then sent on to USCIS.  Given that an initial petition's average processing time is somewhere north of 17 months with USCIS, and remembering that most EB-5 investors don't hand over the money until the initial proposal has USCIS approval----- it is going to be some time before the money starts flowing into that project (at least from the EB-5 sources).


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 9, 2014)

Hmmm.  Interesting.  

http://vtdigger.org/2014/11/09/bill-stenger-response-vtdiggers-stories-eb-5-investors/

I thought Bill had been quiet lately.  

So both sides have spoken.  Sounds like the truth is somewhere in the middle as is normally the case.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

Interesting article, for sure. On the one hand, I have much less sympathy for the investors that claimed that they do not have enough resources by not being paid back their initial investment. However, one has to wonder if Jay Peak obtained verification of assets.

A couple of Stenger's statements made me scratch my head:
1) That the investors are now guaranteed to get their money back in 38 months.  My impression is that the IOU is not properly collateralized.  
2) He makes no mention of the massive balloon payment, and has certainly not explained how such a payment could ever be made.
3) He doesn't explain why stripping the investors of an ownership interest was good for anyone other than Jay.  
4) His argument presumes that there is actual oversight by the state.  The state itself has conceded that they were not enforcing at least one major requirement of the MOU. 

I agree that the truth is likely somewhere in between.  If this was just one or two phase-one investors expressing discontent, I would be much less skeptical of Jay.  But it's an extremely large percentage.  At best, it's a PR disaster.  Maybe Jay should send Burkie to sip cognac with the investors and to flirt with the wives.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2014)

Other than Stenger claiming the investors in question will be paid back in full withing 38 months, there's very little new info in his response.  Kindof makes me wonder why he even bothered writing it as all it does is put these gnawing issues back into the public eye, even if briefly.   PR 101:  If the bad news has quieted down, don't bring it back up.

As for his 38 month comment which is new, I really dont understand it or where that comes from.  Did they just decide this?  How will they be paid (i.e. where does that money come from, as it's significant.....probably about $10M or so)?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 10, 2014)

I assumed that the final payment becomes due in 38 months.  The final payment is the balloon payment that is in excess of $300,000 per investor.


----------



## Masskier (Nov 14, 2014)

[FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Vermont EB-5 Regional Center Awarded[/FONT]

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?sectionid=1&subsectionid=145&articleid=120826&tm=32816.39


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Vermont EB-5 Regional Center Awarded
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?sectionid=1&subsectionid=145&articleid=120826&tm=32816.39


Here is the punch line from the "article": 
_During federal fiscal year 2014, Vermont's 116 I-829 approvals equate to a minimum of 1,160 jobs created, placing the Vermont Regional Center in the top 2 percent nationwide, said Brent Raymond, Vermont EB-5 Regional Center executive director._

There is no author listed, so it looks to be a press release.  The award was given by the Association to Invest in the USA.  Stenger is a board member of the organization.  The organization is an industry trade organization for the EB-5 Regional Center Program.  They list their primary mission as the "permanent authorization of the EB-5 Regional Center Program by Congress."


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2014)

Masskier said:


> [FONT=Verdana, Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Vermont EB-5 Regional Center Awarded[/FONT]
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?sectionid=1&subsectionid=145&articleid=120826&tm=32816.39



There's no article. It's behind a paywall. Please post the text.


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----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The award was given by the Association to Invest in the USA.  Stenger is a board member of the organization.  The organization is an industry trade organization for the EB-5 Regional Center Program.  They list their primary mission as the "permanent authorization of the EB-5 Regional Center Program by Congress."



Seriously?  That would be like if I gave myself an award for _"World's Greatest Skier"._ 

If that really is true, all it is is nonsense for them to put in forward/future marketing materials.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2014)

Here is a non-paywalled version:
http://www.vermontbiz.com/news/november/vermont-eb-5-regional-center-wins-national-award


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Seriously?  That would be like if I gave myself an award for _"World's Greatest Skier"._
> 
> If that really is true, all it is is nonsense for them to put in forward/future marketing materials.



Yeah I read VTK's snip and took it for what it is--a self-serving press release that the Center shot out there after some critical news articles and after the Governor barely won an election (in part because Vermonters don't feel that the economy is going well).  It is what it is as they say.  

So the good: folks are getting money and doing projects that will hopefully help grow business.  The meh: the way that they calculate "jobs created" (or kept) renders the real job growth questionable.  Some folks obviously got jobs from this...albeit low paying...others probably are doing better....all good.  I certainly did not see 100's of people working at Burke when I went up there.  And the bad:  there are a lot of questions as to what is going on, the jobs that are being made, and if the development is sustainable.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2014)

I'm curious as to how many of the construction jobs at Burke are being performed by people who had previously resided in the Northeast Kingdom?  It would be a great statistic from a public relations standpoint if the percentage was a high one.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2014)

Guess who appears to have put out the press release?  You will be shocked:
http://vermont.gov/portal/government/article.php?news=5169

I can't find any other center that has issued a press release about this award.  (Not saying that they don't exist - just that I didn't find one.)  It's odd that the IIUSA, in a separate press release, mentions "spotlighting" 17 EB-5 Regional Centers at an award ceremony, but they don't give a list of who the "award" winners were, nor do they say what the criteria was for the award, other than a vague reference to I-829 approvals.  (See: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/11/prweb12310062.htm )

One has to wonder if being a board member helped Mr. Stenger at a time when help was needed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Guess who appears to have put out the press release?  You will be shocked:
> http://vermont.gov/portal/government/article.php?news=5169
> 
> I can't find any other center that has issued a press release about this award.  (Not saying that they don't exist - just that I didn't find one.)  It's odd that the IIUSA, in a separate press release, mentions "spotlighting" 17 EB-5 Regional Centers at an award ceremony, but they don't give a list of who the "award" winners were, nor do they say what the criteria was for the award, other than a vague reference to I-829 approvals.  (See: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/11/prweb12310062.htm )
> ...



Reason to ask questions for sure.


----------



## noreasterbackcountry (Nov 14, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> One has to wonder if being a board member helped Mr. Stenger at a time when help was needed.



Being in the top 2% in I-829 approvals probably didn't hurt either.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> The meh:* the way that they calculate "jobs created" (or kept) renders the real job growth questionable.*



I have actual working experience with the intentionally fraudulent manner in which government economists calculate _"jobs created" _to make government programs look good.  You don't even want to know, but long story short, believing the data takes a similar kind of willing suspension of disbelief as does watching an X-men movie.   There's no way EB-5 in Vermont is creating anywhere near the jobs they claim, but if they're creating and sustaining even < 1/2 of the jobs they claim they are, I'd be surprised.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2014)

noreasterbackcountry said:


> Being in the top 2% in I-829 approvals probably didn't hurt either.


I have always applauded Stenger for being one of the first to the EB-5 party.  The question is whether or not he will be there when it really gets going.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

I had no idea how much of downtown Newport is now behind a fence.  I couldn't see any action happening.  





.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I had no idea how much of downtown Newport is now behind a fence.  I couldn't see any action happening.
> 
> View attachment 14363
> View attachment 14364
> ...



Can you imagine how Newport feels with all of it looking like this?


----------



## dlague (Nov 19, 2014)

probably pretty good if it will look better when all is said and done.  That block was an eye sore to begin with!  Especially after Great outdoors moved.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

One more photo.  

It's a MASSIVE hole in an already small downtown commercial strip. 

When I walked by a second time, I saw a couple of guys removing copper tubing, but nothing else.  


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

dlague said:


> probably pretty good if it will look better when all is said and done.  That block was an eye sore to begin with!  Especially after Great outdoors moved.



It definitely will look better if it is built.  As much as I hate to see historical buildings go, some of the buildings had seen much better days.  


.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Nov 19, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I saw a couple of guys removing copper tubing, but nothing else.



You sure they weren't stealing it? That has been a problem at construction/abandoned building sites for a while now.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 19, 2014)

They were being very open about it, although it was FAR from a sophisticated operation.  Two guys and a pickup truck.  


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> *You sure they weren't stealing it? That has been a problem at construction/abandoned building sites for a while now*.



That's EXACTLY what I was thinking!

As for the "DANGER construction site" warning, is there any construction going on?  Looks more like, "DANGER Fence" from the photos.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

I missed an article on the AnC Bio EB-5 project that ran in the Caledonian Record on November 15th.

The article is somewhat confusing, but here is what it appears to say:
- An Act 250 permit was issued in September and other state permits were cleared.
- Peak CM was supposed to start construction on the last week of October, but were told to hold off "in part" because of a delay in Regional EB-5 Center approval.
- The Regional EB-5 Center (State of Vermont) is requiring an updated market analysis.  
- Stenger has been working on the update since May.  The update centers on the "material disclosures that must be made to investors".
- The reason for the original market analysis becoming out of date is stated to be that EB-5 projects are taking longer to be approved by the feds.
- Stenger says that he is not worried about state approval, and that construction could  begin in a week.  (note: the article was from 11/15)
- Jerry Davis, president of Peak CM, said he is worried that delays would put off the construction launch until spring.  That would sideline about 100 construction workers with Northeast Kingdom firms which are the likely bid winners as subcontractors on the project.  From the article: "It's really frustrating. We didn't see that coming," Davis said. "My concern is the jobs."

My theory is that the state has cracked down and does not want to leave itself open to liability.  I'm not sure why it is taking so long to prepare a new market study, however.  Stenger attributes this to the complex, and fast changing, biotech market.  Who knows.  Whatever the reason, it is apparently taking quite a while to deliver what the state is demanding.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

BTW, remember back in early April when Stenger said that the Stateside second-phase (85 suites and cottages) was going to be delayed for six months in order to "ramp up" marketing efforts and to finalize permits?  What is the status of this project?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2014)

A "market study" for what exactly?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> A "market study" for what exactly?


This is where the article is somewhat confusing.  

Here are some quotes from the article (with other content in between some of them removed):

_Approval won't be issued until Stenger and his partners investing in the Jay Peak Biomedical Research Park at the former Bogner site complete an update of the market analysis of their products that is offered to potential foreign investors.

Brent Raymond, director of the EB-5 Regional Center, said Thursday that he has been working with Stenger and partners since May on the update, which is the material disclosures that must be made to investors.

EB-5 projects like AnC Bio Vermont are taking longer to go through the federal review process. That means that the initial offering about AnC Bio became out of date, Raymond said.

The offering describes all the potential risks of investing in the product and services. Over two years' time, that could change, Raymond said.

Stenger called the market offering a normal administrative update that is "pretty significant," especially in a complex market that is changing as fast as the bio-tech industry._


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> _Approval won't be issued until Stenger and his partners investing in the Jay Peak Biomedical Research Park at the former Bogner site complete an update of the market analysis of their products that is offered to potential foreign investors.
> _



I'm so confused.  I thought this was already fully approved?  

Granted, if you recall, out of this entire EB-5 endeavor, the AnC Bio project was the #1 thing I was most skeptical about, for a number of reasons that I wrote about (probably 30 pages back) prior.  So much so that my prediction was that it will likely never happen despite what Stenger/Q and the State of Vermont were saying, and if it does get built, it will fail.  I still stand by that.


----------



## dlague (Nov 21, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm so confused.  I thought this was already fully approved?
> 
> Granted, if you recall, out of this entire EB-5 endeavor, the AnC Bio project was the #1 thing I was most skeptical about, for a number of reasons that I wrote about (probably 30 pages back) prior.  So much so that my prediction was that it likely never happens, and if it does it will fail.  I still stand by that.



That would not be a first for the Newport area!  Lots of promising companies had proposed to build there and then never happened.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm so confused.  I thought this was already fully approved?


It looks like there is federal approval and regional center approval.  Although I have no idea anymore which is the cart and which is the horse.  

But no worries.  Stenger said that construction could start as early as... well... today.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2014)

I just had an epiphany that is quite plausible.

I think it's possible that State of Vermont finally caught onto how completely absurd & fairytale-like this project is.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2014)

I've poked around to see just what the Vermont Regional Center approval is about.  The only thing I have found is that the Verrmont Regional Center "pre-approves" projects so they can be marketed.  
See, e.g.: 
http://www.eb5investors.com/magazine/article/The-Public-Private-Prototype
http://mountsnoweb5.com/the-vermont-regional-center/

So it makes no sense to me why AnC Bio would be awaiting approval from the regional center if they were supposed to break ground in late October.  But I am FAR from knowledgeable about these things, and could very well be mistaken.  The Caledonian Record article says that the project was awaiting "final approval" from the regional center, so perhaps there is indeed a second approval that is required after the pre-approval.  It's all quite muddy.

One way or the other, I really hope that the AnC Bio project goes forward.  I had been under the impression that a lot of the housing that is going to be part of the construction in downtown Newport was for Korean nationals that were going to be employed at AnC Bio.  If this is true, there may not be sufficient demand to justify the project in downtown Newport.  With so much of the downtown behind a chain link fence, that would be awful news.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2014)

My thought is that State of Vermont did absolutely no due diligence, and is only now understanding how risky, experimental, and lacking in governmental approvals AnC Bio's business is, and not to mention the extremely limited marketable opportunities AnC currently has to earn revenue from product sales.    

Lastly, I will bet you they haven't even signed a single 3rd-party biotech tenant yet (If anyone from VTDigger happens to read this train-wreck of a thread, that's a great question to ask).  That will probably require either additional EB-5 handouts or taxpayer money (i.e. "free money" in one form or another) to "lure" another entity to northern Vermont.

Nothing new from me, I've said all the above from day one, but if I wind up being correct on that, it's going to be interesting to watch.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 20, 2014)

The GAO is going to audit the EB-5 program:
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2025210624_eb5auditxml.html

Here is one very disturbing quote from the article:
_Poor data collection makes it impossible to verify that foreign investors’ funds actually created U.S. jobs._

There has also been evidence suggesting that New York City and other major metropolitan areas are more attractive to investors than Vermont.  This article seems to back that up:
http://therealdeal.com/blog/2014/12/10/related-raises-record-setting-600m-through-eb-5-program/


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The GAO is going to audit the EB-5 program:
> 
> Here is one very disturbing quote from the article:
> _Poor data collection makes it impossible to verify that foreign investors’ funds actually created U.S. jobs._



Which isn't an accident.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2014)

I think that the EB – 5 program does create jobs but probably not as many as they think it does.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Dec 21, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> The GAO is going to audit the EB-5 program:
> http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2025210624_eb5auditxml.html
> 
> Here is one very disturbing quote from the article:
> ...



STOP THE PRESSES!!!  You mean to tell me that the Northeast Kingdom isn't as attractive an investment destination as the largest and wealthiest metro region in the country?!  I am shocked, SHOCKED!!  

Guys, irrespective of how haphazardly this program may have been executed, the entire rationale was to draw investment dollars to less attractive destinations by offering citizenship as a carrot.  The explicit trade-off is jumping to the front of the line in exchange for the lower rate of return/higher risk that such investments would likely offer.  Questioning whether that laudable vision has been implemented properly is an entirely appropriate, but entirely separate, issue.


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## mister moose (Dec 23, 2014)

Tin Woodsman said:


> STOP THE PRESSES!!! You mean to tell me that the Northeast Kingdom isn't as attractive an investment destination as the largest and wealthiest metro region in the country?! I am shocked, SHOCKED!!
> 
> Guys, irrespective of how haphazardly this program may have been executed, the entire rationale was to draw investment dollars to less attractive destinations by offering citizenship as a carrot. The explicit trade-off is jumping to the front of the line in exchange for the lower rate of return/higher risk that such investments would likely offer. Questioning whether that laudable vision has been implemented properly is an entirely appropriate, but entirely separate, issue.



Yes.  But in this case, the carrot for the government is the expectation of additional permanent jobs, proportional to the investment, as a result of the investment.  Build a factory to build something, a la big dollars to overhaul IBM in Burlington*, and now you have something.  Those jobs will last a long time.  People will move to good, well paying employment.

There is something different about creating resort jobs.  You can't just do it any old place, it needs to be close enough to the population that's going to support the resort.  So in this case (NE Kingdom), there is an upper limit on how much resort investment an area can absorb.  The surrounding metro population isn't going to grow or get any closer based on Jay's success.  Jay will never be a fly-to resort of any significance.  And resort jobs are largely lower paying jobs.

It will be a while until we see if that upper limit point has been reached with Jay/Burke.

*(If that's possible.  The point isn't the semi-conductor industry, it's about the importance of manufacturing goods to the economy)


----------



## Masskier (Dec 27, 2014)

Nice article in January's Ski Mag on Jay Peak and the EB 5 fueled expansion


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 27, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Nice article in January's Ski Mag on Jay Peak and the EB 5 fueled expansion


I read it.  I didn't think it was worth even mentioning here since it presented nothing new and was clearly dated.


----------



## Edd (Dec 28, 2014)

Of note in that article are the comments about not necessarily having to pay the investors back. That idea was posted in this thread recently. I'd also imagine some of these wealthy folks wouldn't throw themselves off a building if they lost their money....as long as the green card stuff worked out.

Edit: Also, there's a bit about the lodging being 90% full in November with no skiing available. I'm going to assume this is last month and not last year but it's impressive no matter what.


----------



## Whiteout (Dec 28, 2014)

^^^^ I'd say it's partly due to Jay's marketing of the last minute email deals. They are getting beds full, just with less profit. Some money is better than no money.


----------



## Edd (Dec 28, 2014)

Whiteout said:


> ^^^^ I'd say it's partly due to Jay's marketing of the last minute email deals. They are getting beds full, just with less profit. Some money is better than no money.



I don't know anything about that. In the example, they had multiple events being held there.


----------



## Masskier (Dec 28, 2014)

Whiteout said:


> ^^^^ I'd say it's partly due to Jay's marketing of the last minute email deals. They are getting beds full, just with less profit. Some money is better than no money.



Especially in November.  Another thing that is impressive is their skier growth.  150k to about 400k over the past few years.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 28, 2014)

Masskier said:


> Especially in November.  Another thing that is impressive is their skier growth.  150k to about 400k over the past few years.



I was definitely impressed by that.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 28, 2014)

The 150k to 400k number is indeed impressive, but let's be honest here...it was not because they built a few new buildings, it is because they have done A LOT of marketing to go with it.  Ask any skier about Jay and they conjure up images about amazing powder, glades, and incredible terrain with new amenities.  

I say this because there is a misconception that if they drop in a new hotel at sister Burke that all is well.  I think that the Jay Marketing machine needs to do A LOT of repair work with that image there before they see the same growth.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 29, 2014)

Edd said:


> Of note in that article are the comments about not necessarily having to pay the investors back. That idea was posted in this thread recently.* I'd also imagine some of these wealthy folks wouldn't throw themselves off a building if they lost their money....as long as the green card stuff worked out.*



This is the biggest misconception I had about this program with how it relates to Jay.  I too, assumed they must generally be very rich or extremely well-off to say the very least. But if you've been following this story (and believe it), many of their phase I investors are not rich - at all in some cases.  In fact, this is one aspect of the story I wish someone like VTDIGGER or another organization would investigate, as it _potentially_ strikes me as odd.


----------



## Edd (Dec 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the biggest misconception I had about this program with how it relates to Jay.  I too, assumed they must generally be very rich or extremely well-off to say the very least. But if you've been following this story (and believe it), many of their phase I investors are not rich - at all in some cases.  In fact, this is one aspect of the story I wish someone like VTDIGGER or another organization would investigate, as it _potentially_ strikes me as odd.



Not being argumentative, but they're not rich and they're investing half a million dollars? I mean, let's define what rich is, I guess, particularly for non-Americans.


----------



## dlague (Dec 29, 2014)

Edd said:


> Not being argumentative, but they're not rich and they're investing half a million dollars? I mean, let's define what rich is, I guess, particularly for non-Americans.



Being able to invest $500,000  for 99%   of US votets would be considered rich!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 29, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is the biggest misconception I had about this program with how it relates to Jay.  I too, assumed they must generally be very rich or extremely well-off to say the very least. But if you've been following this story (and believe it), many of their phase I investors are not rich - at all in some cases.  In fact, this is one aspect of the story I wish someone like VTDIGGER or another organization would investigate, as it _potentially_ strikes me as odd.



When you factor in the exchange rate, $500k equates to what, 300k pounds Sterling for the UK or so?  Sure it seems like a lot of money, but if you have saved up a nest egg and want to move to the US you could amass that over many years.  As you said some of the Phase I investors indeed fit into this category.  The uber rich aren't biting on EB-5 from what I can see.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2014)

An article in the Caledonian Record said that they have 170 investors for ANC Bio with just a few more needed.   


.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 30, 2014)

Article is not related to Jay but is about the EB-5 program.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/29/visa-program-for-rich-investors-raises-concerns-on/


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## AdironRider (Dec 30, 2014)

dlague said:


> Being able to invest $500,000  for 99%   of US votets would be considered rich!




Im not really arguing with you, but considering the average 401k balance is six figures, plus housing, its probably more like for 50-60% of us 500k would seem like an unreachable number. 

You also need to look at the mindset. Citizenship in the USA carries a lot of benefits we take for granted, that plenty of foreigners will give up everything they have for.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 30, 2014)

That's what I'm thinking.  If I were Chinese (or from countless other nations), I'd give up everything I had in a heartbeat for US citizenship.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2014)

So I read the SKI Magazine article last night.  I'm sure that it will surface on their webpage soon...almost all their content eventually gets posted online.  It was indeed dated....I'd say that it was obviously done last season or so and is referring to November 2013 data.  Their reference to the Newport Marina and Hotel should have been deleted since that project is dead for now.  

More eerily enough was Stenger gloating about how he "may not even have to repay" the investors at all....or could repay them on his terms.  Obviously he said that before this summer's clusterfuck and would not be making the same statement in 2014.  He made that statement at least twice in the article.  That really made Jay look bad IMHO.    

Other than that, I noticed some clearly ambitious Stenger Talk © about how great things were and their awesome plans.  First, they now have 3,000 beds and claimed a 90% occupancy rate for a random weekend in November, attributed to 600 people for a hockey tournament, a couple weddings, and some other parties.  By my calculations I think he was exaggerating a bit there.  The 600 people would account for 600 beds at most.  That leaves 2,100 beds.  Those weddings probably are only 200 people or so each...so that is 400 beds max.  That leave 1,700 beds if not more to account for.  Those are some big parties.  

As to the plans, they said again that big changes are coming including replacing the Jet, Bonnie, and the West Bowl.  I remember in 2003 a ski patroller telling me on the Freezer that the West Bowl was coming "next year".  12 years later.....

The article also referred to Q in it and offered the lame excuse to why they renamed it Q Burke "to distinguish themselves" from previous failures.  Judging by that stupid comment, I'd place the date on this article to be about December 2013 or January 2014 since Q Sr. trotted out that line (and his slanderous comments) in January.  

In sum, my critical read of the article made Jay look worse than before.  Joe Cutts is a good freelance author, so I doubt that he screwed up here.  I'm not being negative, just reading it with a critical eye because of my education, experience, and training.  I think that a superficial read of it is positive until you dig down and pay attention to what was said and the logic (or lack thereof) behind it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 31, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that a superficial read of it is positive until you dig down and pay attention to what was said and the logic (or lack thereof) behind it.


But how many people would ever read that deeply into the article?


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 31, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> That's what I'm thinking.*  If I were Chinese* (or from countless other nations)*, I'd give up everything I had in a heartbeat for US citizenship*.



Which is part of the reason why they laser focus EB-5 on Chinese investors.



steamboat1 said:


> *Article *is not related to Jay but *is about the EB-5 program.*



Here's a telling tid-bit from that article.



> Investments usually are pooled through *“regional centers,” which also  have grown exponentially, from fewer than 50 in 2008 to 600 this year.*



A dozen per state = LULZ.  Doesn't exactly require a genius to figure out what's going on here folks.


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## mbedle (Jan 1, 2015)

Trailboss - wouldn't the occupancy rate be based on rooms and not beds? In other words, they may have 3K beds, but significantly less rooms to fill to hit a 90% occupancy rate. 



thetrailboss said:


> So I read the SKI Magazine article last night.  I'm sure that it will surface on their webpage soon...almost all their content eventually gets posted online.  It was indeed dated....I'd say that it was obviously done last season or so and is referring to November 2013 data.  Their reference to the Newport Marina and Hotel should have been deleted since that project is dead for now.
> 
> More eerily enough was Stenger gloating about how he "may not even have to repay" the investors at all....or could repay them on his terms.  Obviously he said that before this summer's clusterfuck and would not be making the same statement in 2014.  He made that statement at least twice in the article.  That really made Jay look bad IMHO.
> 
> ...


----------



## billski (Jan 1, 2015)

dlague said:


> That would not be a first for the Newport area!  Lots of promising companies had proposed to build there and then never happened.


There was a Newport Planning board meeting held on Dec. 23rd.  The draft minutes were published on the town website.  

_"...Ms. de Ortiz asked about the inclusion of the waterfront hotel in the long term vision, since the plans seem to have fallen through.  Charles Elliot (Board Chairman) indicated he will keep the waterfront hotel in the Board's long term vision since he believes it will happen it some point.  It may not be Jay Peak or Bill Stenger who bring it to pass or in the same timeline but he believes a project similar to that will happen at some point.     Ms. de Ortiz asked for an update on the downtown block; Mr. [John] Ward (Newport City Manager) replied that they are working on asbestos abatement now and will soon start lead abatement.  If things go well, he estimates demolition will begin in March or April."_


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## VTKilarney (Jan 1, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Trailboss - wouldn't the occupancy rate be based on rooms and not beds? In other words, they may have 3K beds, but significantly less rooms to fill to hit a 90% occupancy rate.


I am not sure that would help the picture because hockey tournaments tend to have more people per room than average.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Trailboss - wouldn't the occupancy rate be based on rooms and not beds? In other words, they may have 3K beds, but significantly less rooms to fill to hit a 90% occupancy rate.



The article says beds. Perhaps he meant two different things but I know that in the industry they count beds typically.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2015)

No one ever stopped me from renting a room for myself at full rate. Two Kings too, that Cliff Lodge is nice..


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## mbedle (Jan 2, 2015)

I am note sure about that - http://www.statista.com/markets/420/topic/1018/accomodation/ 

For the same price, hotels typically do not care if you have a second person sleeping in a double room. 




thetrailboss said:


> The article says beds. Perhaps he meant two different things but I know that in the industry they count beds typically.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Steve@jpr (Jan 3, 2015)

*Occ*

just a quick point of clarity here--the industry (like every other) uses rooms as relating to the issue of occupancy (and not beds) ie, here, when we claim 95% occupancy (the average over the past 10 days inclusive), we are referring to 95% of our 600-ish rooms (ish, because homeowners making their units available varies on a daily basis) occupied. I'm guessing I probably misinterpreted what's being said here and, that being the case, pls ignore me.  Happy new year.

sw



thetrailboss said:


> The article says beds. Perhaps he meant two different things but I know that in the industry they count beds typically.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> just a quick point of clarity here--the industry (like every other) uses rooms as relating to the issue of occupancy (and not beds) ie, here, when we claim 95% occupancy (the average over the past 10 days inclusive), we are referring to 95% of our 600-ish rooms (ish, because homeowners making their units available varies on a daily basis) occupied. I'm guessing I probably misinterpreted what's being said here and, that being the case, pls ignore me.  Happy new year.
> 
> sw



That helps. Thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Mar 6, 2015)

Jay Peak has put some environmental issues behind them:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/05/settlement-reached-decade-long-jay-peak-pollution-claims/#comments

The article says that this summer Jay Peak will break ground on 13 new cottages (totaling 84 residential units), a 15,000-square-foot recreation center and a 5,000-square-foot medical center.  These are apparently EB-5 projects.


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## fbrissette (Mar 6, 2015)

This is supposed to complete all development on stateside.   AFAIK the new cottages will be built in prime location along the chalet meadows trail, where the old T-bar used to be.

Only the West Bowl will remain for Jay Peak to complete their Master plan, which would include relocating the Bonnie and butchering the Orchard.


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## Smellytele (Mar 6, 2015)

Not sure if anyone has been in the bar at the new State side lodge but the area to me is way too small. This includes the seating area not actually in the bar. It is a very thin area and hard to move around in. It is smaller than the old state side but I haven't seen the cafe area downstairs maybe that makes up for it but upstairs while nice looking is too small.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> *Only the West Bowl will remain for Jay Peak to complete their Master plan*



Which is sadly the only thing 90% of skiers give a ratz azz about.   


Medical center?  WTH?


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## fbrissette (Mar 6, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Which is sadly the only thing 90% of skiers give a ratz azz about.



Correct.  Hopefully, it is the other stuff that will eventually pay for the West Bowl.   Not holding my breath however.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2015)

BG - Newport Hospital isn't exactly right down the street.  Given Jays growth, I'd think having a decent medical facility on site is important; especially with the water park.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> BG - Newport Hospital isn't exactly right down the street.  Given Jays growth, I'd think having a decent medical facility on site is important; especially with the water park.



+ 1.  Makes complete sense.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> BG - Newport Hospital isn't exactly right down the street.  Given Jays growth, I'd think having a decent medical facility on site is important; especially with the water park.



I'll add weather to that equation too. It is a long way to the hospital in Newport and the weather around Jay can make it even longer. imagine breaking a bone in the terrain park, having to wait 30+ minutes for an ambulance (assuming the one is close by isn't already on a run). Then bumping down route 242 and finally getting to the hospital 1.5 hours later.

The number of people around the Jay Peak area participating in activities that could injure them definitely provides a good reason to have a medical center.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> BG - Newport Hospital isn't exactly right down the street.  Given Jays growth, I'd think having a decent medical facility on site is important; especially with the water park.





from_the_NEK said:


> The number of people around the Jay Peak area participating in activities that could injure them definitely provides a good reason to have a medical center.



I'll tell you one thing, it will be the best place ever to be a doctor or a nurse given how low volume it's going to be.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'll tell you one thing, it will be the best place ever to be a doctor or a nurse given how low volume it's going to be.



I'd say the opposite.  I know when I was directly involved with patient care, I wanted to be busy all the time.  
 I felt a little guilty in that desire as it meant having more sick or hurt people.  If I woke up and saw it snowing out and I was scheduled in the ER, I was excited to go to work knowing I would have a massive amount of patients to take care of.   That's why you do the job though; a desire to help people.

Slow days were boring.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Slow days were boring.



I was the opposite.  Loved it.  I'd play hearts at Fletcher Allen, read, watch hockey games, etc.. all while getting paid.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2015)

Maybe that's why you no longer work in healthcare.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2015)

For those that don't want to read.....

http://digital.vpr.net/post/jay-pea...ail&utm_term=0_09c24b4034-acfe51b509-26269490


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2015)

And maybe this was posted already, but this is a very nice article from the BFP on Jay Peak history:

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/2015/01/22/history-jay-peak-resort/22141789/


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## mbedle (Mar 6, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Which is sadly the only thing 90% of skiers give a ratz azz about.
> 
> 
> Medical center?  WTH?



Come on - do you really believe that is the case! I would think that maybe 90% of the locals feel that way, but they make up a small percentage of gross revenue at these types of resorts.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Come on - do you really believe that is the case! I would think that maybe 90% of the locals feel that way, but they make up a small percentage of gross revenue at these types of resorts.



Read it again; I said _"skiers"_ will care about West Bowl.   People who come to Jay to splash in an overrated water park or for their kid's hockey tournament obviously will feel otherwise.


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## mbedle (Mar 6, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Read it again; I said _"skiers"_ will care about West Bowl.   People who come to Jay to splash in an overrated water park or for their kid's hockey tournament obviously will feel otherwise.



I was actually thinking skiers also, just that more revenue is generated by vacations and not locals/pass holders. It would be interesting to see the actual number of skier visits comparing people that ski there regular to people who vacation there in the winter.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 7, 2015)

*As far as overrated waterparks go*

Ours is the overratedest; we do slightly more waterpark visits than we so skier visits--slight edge that has been eroded over the past two year's by increasing skier visits, but still. Enjoy the late season all--season pass rates land Friday with a new YA option available (sadly, this flight sails south of most in here), but a nice add nonetheless.  Have a great late season and stay healthy.



mbedle said:


> I was actually thinking skiers also, just that more revenue is generated by vacations and not locals/pass holders. It would be interesting to see the actual number of skier visits comparing people that ski there regular to people who vacation there in the winter.


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## mbedle (Mar 7, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> Ours is the overratedest; we do slightly more waterpark visits than we so skier visits--slight edge that has been eroded over the past two year's by increasing skier visits, but still. Enjoy the late season all--season pass rates land Friday with a new YA option available (sadly, this flight sails south of most in here), but a nice add nonetheless.  Have a great late season and stay healthy.



Steve - thanks a million for providing the insight on the waterpark visits. Looks like a great place.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 7, 2015)

Sure thing Mbedle.  It might be overrated, but it's our overrated.  Exclamation point.



mbedle said:


> Steve - thanks a million for providing the insight on the waterpark visits. Looks like a great place.


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## mbedle (Mar 7, 2015)

Steve - just so you know, it wasn't me calling it overrated. Keep up the good work you guys are doing up there at Jay.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 7, 2015)

I know, just playin my friend.  Enjoy the rest of the season.



mbedle said:


> Steve - just so you know, it wasn't me calling it overrated. Keep up the good work you guys are doing up there at Jay.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2015)

OK, I'm dumb. What is "YA" option?


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 7, 2015)

Young Adult. (19-29)



thetrailboss said:


> OK, I'm dumb. What is "YA" option?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> Young Adult. (19-29)



Cool.


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## benski (Mar 7, 2015)

Usually young adults is a term for teenagers. It is more pc. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## fbrissette (Mar 7, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> Young Adult. (19-29)



Holy disappointment...  You mean I'm not a young adult anymore ?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2015)

Steve, I'm 39.  If I go to the ticket window and say 39 is the new 29, what kind of reception will I get?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2015)

Steve@jpr said:


> It might be overrated, but it's our overrated.  Exclamation point.



Exclamation point indeed. As long as it's making money, that's all that matters (literally).

But my point was simply in reference to those that have been to lot of h2o parks, and in that regard JP's is nothing special. I imagine that sounds like a horrible slight to a marketing person, but it's not meant to be.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2015)

How does it compare to other _indoo_ waterparks though?   Most of those that I've seen seem a little lame.


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## Smellytele (Mar 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> How does it compare to other _indoo_ waterparks though?   Most of those that I've seen seem a little lame.



Better than any of the great wolf's I have been to


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 8, 2015)

Understood and no slight taken.  I can only offer that I've been to more indoor waterparks than I care to mention since 2006 and while obviously tainted with some level of homerism, ours is, by no form, overrated.  I imagine this sounds like a horrible slight to one who feels they have a solid benchmark on how indoor waterparks rate, but none is intended.



BenedictGomez said:


> Exclamation point indeed. As long as it's making money, that's all that matters (literally).
> 
> But my point was simply in reference to those that have been to lot of h2o parks, and in that regard JP's is nothing special. I imagine that sounds like a horrible slight to a marketing person, but it's not meant to be.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2015)

It's an impressive waterpark for a northeastern United States indoor waterpark.  It is geared more toward the adventurous guest, with the Flowrider and the La Chute.  Some other waterparks are geared more toward leisure, with a wave pool or something "pool" like.  The only indoor pool at the Pump House is for basketball hoops and a climbing wall.  The Lazy River is supposed to be mellow, but on a busy day it feels like you are in a pinball machine.  Kids don't seem to understand the "lazy" part and treat it like it's a racecourse.

The one real wish I have for the waterpark is the addition of more seats.  There aren't nearly enough.  In the winter it's common to see people eating lunch while literally sitting on the cement floor.  This could be done by building a deck or extending the existing one.  Are there any plans to do that?

What we really like about the waterpark is that it is excellent insurance for cold weather.  If it's ten below and the wind is howling, you know that you'll have something to do on your vacation if you don't feel like skiing.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> What we really like about the waterpark is that it is excellent insurance for cold weather.  If it's ten below and the wind is howling, you know that you'll have something to do on your vacation if you don't feel like skiing.



And that right there is the Million(s) Dollar answer to why there is a waterpark at Jay.


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## Steve@jpr (Mar 8, 2015)

Agreed VTK and that was the original intention-to create a park that was more geared toward that set (the deep water pool, supporting the horizontal climbing wall, was really the one that was integrated to create some separation from other indoor parks which usually shy away from that element given insurance issues.)

And agreed on the seating-when it's busy in there we def could use more seats-proobably more floor space actually, but definitely more seats.  It's one thing we're looking at as we start to prepare budgets for FY16.



VTKilarney said:


> It's an impressive waterpark for a northeastern United States indoor waterpark.  It is geared more toward the adventurous guest, with the Flowrider and the La Chute.  Some other waterparks are geared more toward leisure, with a wave pool or something "pool" like.  The only indoor pool at the Pump House is for basketball hoops and a climbing wall.  The Lazy River is supposed to be mellow, but on a busy day it feels like you are in a pinball machine.  Kids don't seem to understand the "lazy" part and treat it like it's a racecourse.
> 
> The one real wish I have for the waterpark is the addition of more seats.  There aren't nearly enough.  In the winter it's common to see people eating lunch while literally sitting on the cement floor.  This could be done by building a deck or extending the existing one.  Are there any plans to do that?
> 
> What we really like about the waterpark is that it is excellent insurance for cold weather.  If it's ten below and the wind is howling, you know that you'll have something to do on your vacation if you don't feel like skiing.


----------



## JPTracker (Mar 8, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> This is supposed to complete all development on stateside.   AFAIK the new cottages will be built in prime location along the chalet meadows trail, where the old T-bar used to be.
> 
> Only the West Bowl will remain for Jay Peak to complete their Master plan, which would include relocating the Bonnie and butchering the Orchard.



These cottages will not be along Chalet Meadows.

From the Act 250 site:

https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/Planning/7R0854-12-4/plans/Location Map.pdf

https://anrweb.vt.gov/PubDocs/ANR/Planning/7R0854-12-4/plans/Exhibit P1 - EPSC Overall C5-01.pdf

There are cottages along Chalet Meadows in the Master Plan. No idea when these would be built. Maybe instead of being EB5 they will build them and offer them for sale to general public. Being in a prime location they should be an easy sell.


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## Quietman (Mar 9, 2015)

Anyone anxiously waiting for the West Bowl, can just keep on waiting!! 

*New Delays in Jay Peak West Bowl Expansion Project*


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## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> How does it compare to other _indoo_ waterparks though?   Most of those that I've seen seem a little lame.



Indoo?  Is that like igloo?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 9, 2015)

> *Under the agreement, Jay Peak will  reportedly work to mitigate the sedimentation.  While it will be allowed  to continue with real estate development in 2015, it also agreed to  further postpone its West Bowl project until the streams have recovered.*



*BG TRANSLATION*:  

Environmental extremists who have the ear (and the wallets) of powerful politicians in Vermont, in a thuggish scene reminiscent of _The Godfather, _successfully backed Jay Peak into a corner and made them an "offer" they _literally_ could not refuse.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 9, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> *BG TRANSLATION*:
> 
> Environmental extremists who have the ear (and the wallets) of powerful politicians in Vermont, in a thuggish scene reminiscent of _The Godfather, _successfully backed Jay Peak into a corner and made them an "offer" they _literally_ could not refuse.



Regardless of the environmental issues: " *The decades in waiting West Bowl project is said to consist of 3 chairlifts, six trails, and a new lodge. According to VTDigger, the project has yet to obtain financial backing." *


----------



## CoolMike (Mar 13, 2015)

Anyone have any tips for a first time Jay Peak visit on a Powder day?

I've got a ski house about an hour and a half away and it looks like this Sunday Jay stays snow while the MRV gets some wet sloppy almost snow.  Powder days are rare for me (I missed 2/3 big February snowstorms due to work travel) - so I'd like to maximize my time.

One problem is the wife will be with me - so I can't exclusively shred the steeps.  Part of the plan needs to include cruisers and hopefully diamond runs that meet up with cruisers half way down or something similar.  Thanks for any info!


----------



## Puck it (Mar 13, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> Anyone have any tips for a first time Jay Peak visit on a Powder day?
> 
> I've got a ski house about an hour and a half away and it looks like this Sunday Jay stays snow while the MRV gets some wet sloppy almost snow. Powder days are rare for me (I missed 2/3 big February snowstorms due to work travel) - so I'd like to maximize my time.
> 
> One problem is the wife will be with me - so I can't exclusively shred the steeps. Part of the plan needs to include cruisers and hopefully diamond runs that meet up with cruisers half way down or something similar. Thanks for any info!




First rule of a powder day -  there are no wives,  unless if she rips than you will lose out


----------



## billski (Mar 13, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> Anyone have any tips for a first time Jay Peak visit on a Powder day?
> 
> One problem is the wife will be with me - so I can't exclusively shred the steeps.  Part of the plan needs to include cruisers and hopefully diamond runs that meet up with cruisers half way down or something similar.  Thanks for any info!



If you MUST ski blues (they get scraped down fast at JP) do it first thing in the morning.    I personally don't like the blues at JP.  I find them mobbed, scratched off and scary.  In many cases the blacks ski easier than the blues.  
Now, on a powder day it may be hard to find a groomer, depending on when the snow comes down.  I had one friend who freaked when the groomer wasn't quite packed powder.  You haven't stated her tolerance.   
Second, steeper trails will ski slower of course on a pow day, assuming you are skilled as skiing pow.
Third, this time a year you're gonna be pressed to find a pow day.  Well, you might find a heavy pow day.  Like Sunday.


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## CoolMike (Mar 13, 2015)

billski said:


> If you MUST ski blues (they get scraped down fast at JP) do it first thing in the morning.    I personally don't like the blues at JP.  I find them mobbed, scratched off and scary.  In many cases the blacks ski easier than the blues.
> Now, on a powder day it may be hard to find a groomer, depending on when the snow comes down.  I had one friend who freaked when the groomer wasn't quite packed powder.  You haven't stated her tolerance.
> Second, steeper trails will ski slower of course on a pow day, assuming you are skilled as skiing pow.
> Third, this time a year you're gonna be pressed to find a pow day.  Well, you might find a heavy pow day.  Like Sunday.




Yeah, I was talking specifically about this Sunday.  Heavy snow is fine for me.  The wife is at the high end of the advanced spectrum - single diamonds are fine with nice conditions.  Steep runs are fine too if they aren't top to bottom steep.  The view from the top of a very steep run can freak her out.  Very large bumps can be a struggle.  She's not an expert though and likes to have a game plan on how to attack a mountain.

Thanks for the info so far!


----------



## dlague (Mar 13, 2015)

CoolMike said:


> Anyone have any tips for a first time Jay Peak visit on a Powder day?
> 
> I've got a ski house about an hour and a half away and it looks like this Sunday Jay stays snow while the MRV gets some wet sloppy almost snow.  Powder days are rare for me (I missed 2/3 big February snowstorms due to work travel) - so I'd like to maximize my time.
> 
> One problem is the wife will be with me - so I can't exclusively shred the steeps.  Part of the plan needs to include cruisers and hopefully diamond runs that meet up with cruisers half way down or something similar.  Thanks for any info!



Early skiing off the Jet Chair, then move over to Flyer or Tram.  If she does not like bumps then much of the woods will be out but that is where the powder is best at Jay.  JFK Wedelmaster or Green Mountain Boys (GMB) are always good runs with freshies.  GMB is groomed flat so should be fine.  Vermonter eary would also be a nice run with a view if there is visibility.


----------



## CoolMike (Mar 13, 2015)

dlague said:


> Early skiing off the Jet Chair, then move over to Flyer or Tram.  If she does not like bumps then much of the woods will be out but that is where the powder is best at Jay.  JFK Wedelmaster or Green Mountain Boys (GMB) are always good runs with freshies.  GMB is groomed flat so should be fine.  Vermonter eary would also be a nice run with a view if there is visibility.



Thanks for this!


----------



## therobertcollins (Mar 13, 2015)

Anyone have any Intel about how the mountain is currently skiing, I am heading up sunday, so any predictions for then would be helpful.
Thank you


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 15, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Regardless of the environmental issues: " *The decades in waiting West Bowl project is said to consist of 3 chairlifts, six trails, and a new lodge. According to VTDigger, the project has yet to obtain financial backing." *



The two items are not mutually exclusive.  

In fact, if Jay truly doesn't have the $$$$ to start the project, you could make the argument that demanding they "further"delay its' commencement is even more curious.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2015)

The shoe drops... Including onto West Bowl:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/22/vtdi...nds-approval-for-eb-5-funded-biotech-company/


.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 22, 2015)

> The state cancelled the West Bowl expansion in August and both AnC Bio  and Q Burke projects are now under Department of Financial Regulation  scrutiny. The regional center also passed along concerns to the  department about existing projects at Jay Peak that have come under fire  from investors.



hmmm...


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The shoe drops... Including onto West Bowl:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/22/vtdi...nds-approval-for-eb-5-funded-biotech-company/
> 
> 
> .



Not clear.  the West Bowl mountain expansion was never going to be funded through EB5.  The condos and Boutique Hotel at its base yes.  The expansion and buildings may be dependent on one another however as mentioned by BG.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The shoe drops... Including onto West Bowl:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/22/vtdi...nds-approval-for-eb-5-funded-biotech-company/
> 
> 
> .



All I can say is wow. Just WOW. I will elaborate later. How Raymond and Moulton still have their jobs is unacceptable. Shit meet fan.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

OK, here goes...buckle up.  Double post I know, but here goes.

First comment is in response to those who said back in August that skeptics like me were wrong or merely being negative guess what?  That whole "Vermont approval" thing was B.S.  I'm sure that these folks will be quiet now.  

Second thing is that I do sincerely hope that Stenger and Company are doing things on the up and up and that this is much ado about nothing.  That said, they are paying the price for what is shear incompetence and self-serving behavior by those in Vermont State Government.  This whole realization that "maybe we should actually regulate" is laughable after they have been looking the other way for so long while giving investors and the public the impression that these projects were in fact legit and by the book when they might not have been.  

For those who have not read that article, let me get you up to speed.  Last Summer some investors at Jay got pissed.  Led by Mr. Sutton (who I must say looks like he just got out of a UFO) they were angered by a change in their investment/ownership interest at Jay (actual ownership that was secured by the project to unsecured creditors who were going to get an IOU from JPR) changed without them knowing it.  We know about that.  Well, at around the same time, ANC Bio began having some financial issues in Korea and apparently is in deep trouble.   

After the PR firestorm that occurred in August, and an inappropriate "op ed" by the head of Vermont's Agency of Commerce that defended not just her department but the very people that they should have been monitoring, apparently they had an epiphany that maybe this whole financial regulation thing was just too tough for them and maybe there was a tiny conflict of interest in pushing these programs, allowing folks to put the imprimatur of Vermont State Government on them, but yet not really looking beneath the gloss to ensure that it was going to work and that everything was done appropriately.  Right.  

So now the other Jay projects, other Burke projects, and the rest of the whole initiative are now being reviewed by the State Department of Financial Regulations and folks who have a clue about accounting and securities and don't have any conflict of interest.  Genius really.  :roll:

I think that the State should have fired Moulton immediately.  It's painfully obvious that she cares more about her own paycheck than doing what is right and being accountable.  This whole thing has ruined not just the credibility of Vermont State Government, but really has impacted the legitimacy of what they do.  It also has left a black eye on Vermont.  

The biggest losers are the regular folks in the NEK who are struggling to get by and really could use the good jobs that these projects were supposed to have spurred.  

I'm very upset with my home state and their complete stupidity here.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2015)

There is a follow-up article in Monday's Caledonian Record.  The reporter apparently interviewed Stenger on Sunday.  
Stenger stated that:
1) The more extensive state review will not further delay the AnC Bio project.
2) Groundbreaking for AnC Bio will occur at the end of April, even though the project currently lacks state approval.
3) Stenger is still is awaiting approval of the project’s updated market analysis and business plan that is presented to each investor.
4) The other EB-5 projects in the pipeline will continue as planned.
5) Three-quarters of the necessary AnC Bio investors are lined up and Stenger believes that it will take four months to get the rest.
6) AnC Bio VT bought intellectual rights to products and designs and does not have any corporate affiliation with the South Korean company.
7) The state determined that an updated business plan and offering for the Q Burke Mountain project is complete, allowing Stenger to continue construction and seek the final batch of investors.  Final investor subscription is expected by the end of this year.  The hotel will open on December, 2015.
8 ) The Spates Block in downtown Newport is being demolished.  Stenger and Quiros are paying for this out of their own pocket.  The project will be submitted to the state this summer for EB-5 approval.
9) The Jay Peak West Bowl project has "always been a 2017-2018 project" so the decision to hold off on the project was "reasonable".


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> 9) The Jay Peak West Bowl project has "always been a 2017-2018 project" so the decision to hold off on the project was reasonable.



Fast forward 2 years:  The Jay Peak West Bowl project has "always been a 2019-2021 project" so the decision to hold off on the project was reasonable.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

Nailed it.

The Vermont Keystone Cops phase needs to mercifully come to an end - and quickly.

  The Feds need to get involved here - and quickly.

Full forensic accounting, tie each project out to the penny, independently verify both JP's figures with vendor contracts and invoicing and actual bank statements, and _when_ (not if) they cant do that, you use that as the _"you have a tail light out"_ to expand the investigation.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Fast forward 2 years:  The Jay Peak West Bowl project has "always been a 2019-2021 project" so the decision to hold off on the project was reasonable.



The funny thing is that in December 2002 I heard a Jay employee tell me on the Freezer that the West Bowl Project was "always a 2003-2004 project".  It's kind of like that golf course that they were advertising in 1992 but did not open until only recently....


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The funny thing is that in December 2002 I heard a Jay employee tell me on the Freezer that the West Bowl Project was "always a 2003-2004 project".  It's kind of like that golf course that they were advertising in 1992 but did not open until only recently....



To be fair, in 2002 I don't think anyone was thinking about the EB-5 money that could be used for development. When Stenger and Quiros took over, it was realized that money was available, and the priority changed.
I think it will happen someday. Although, IMHO, they need to get it done ahead of the Balsams project to reduce the potential loss of intermediate Canadian skiers to that resort.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> To be fair, in 2002 I don't think anyone was thinking about the EB-5 money that could be used for development. When Stenger and Quiros took over, it was realized that money was available, and the priority changed.
> I think it will happen someday. Although, IMHO, they need to get it done ahead of the Balsams project to reduce the potential loss of intermediate Canadian skiers to that resort.



True.  My point is that they have always been eager to do something but lacked the money.


----------



## River19 (Mar 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> The funny thing is that in December 2002 I heard a Jay employee tell me on the Freezer that the West Bowl Project was "always a 2003-2004 project".  It's kind of like that golf course that they were advertising in 1992 but did not open until only recently....



In 2022 when you are on the lift and Jay is talking about the West Bowl being a 2023-2024 project and the Balsams is finally ready to open the first of the new trails for January 2024 to compete the the long awaited upgraded snowmaking at Burke Mountain you can think back and laugh at this thread.......


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> In 2022 when you are on the lift and Jay is talking about the West Bowl being a 2023-2024 project and the Balsams is finally ready to open the first of the new trails for January 2024 to compete the the long awaited upgraded snowmaking at Burke Mountain you can think back and laugh at this thread.......



:lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)




----------



## mbedle (Mar 23, 2015)

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the state put the delay on the west bowl expansion because of violation of their numerous NPDES permits? That happen before all the EB-5 stuff back when they got their consent order from the state.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


>



:lol:


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


>


 It is small and kinda ugly, but it is a very powerful bird.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> It is small and kinda ugly, but it is a very powerful bird.



We need to investigate how much power it can withstand.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Mar 23, 2015)

When locals commented at the rapid pace at all this development was proceeding, Mr. Stenger replied "Gotta make hay while the sun shines"

Well, wet hay burns the !@@#$%$^ barn down!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

LONGBOARDR said:


> When locals commented at the rapid pace at all this development was proceeding, Mr. Stenger replied *"Gotta make hay while the sun shines"
> *
> Well, wet hay burns the !@@#$%$^ barn down!



And before the Chinese asset bubble bursts.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 25, 2015)

Demolition is going on in downtown Newport.  It's a BIG project.

The Caledonian Record had another article today about Stenger's EB-5 plans.  

Highlights from the article:
- Stenger plans to have state approval for the Renaissance Block project this summer, will begin seeking investors this fall, and intends to put bids out a year from now.
- Stenger expects to receive state approval for the AnC Bio VT project and begin construction in late April or early May.
- AnC Bio will take 16 months to complete.  When it is wrapping up, Stenger hopes to break ground on the Renaissance Block.
- Stenger said that the VT Digger headline and story were “incorrect, unfair and frankly abusive to the program and the community.”


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 25, 2015)

Here is the market analysis for AnC Bio VT that Stenger has submitted to the state:
http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/vpr/files/201503/jay-peak-independent-report-vpr-20150324.pdf

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion regarding AnC Bio and AnC Bio VT.  The Korean company appears to have had substantial financial problems.  And all of the sudden it appears that it is not AnC Bio that is actually coming to the Northeast Kingdom, but rather a separate company, AnC Bio VT, that has merely licensed intellectual property from Korea's AnC Bio.  But, IIRC, this appears to be a change from the original proposal.

Anne Galloway, from VT Digger, hinted that there is going to be a follow up article about this in the comments section of the most recent article.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *Here is the market analysis for AnC Bio VT* that Stenger has submitted to the state:



A ski resort partnering with a high-beta exploratory pre-clinical research facility with a shady and troubled financial past, whose products aren't even FDA approved and have a sky high hurdle for said approval, in a part of the country where people associated with that work do not live, nor generally have any interest in living.

What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2015)

Speaking of Jay Peak bombshell...  On Saturday I noticed they removed all the SkiKey racks. 

 Anyone know WTH they did that?  The SkiKey racks were there just last month so this was recent.

A) It stinks for those of us who lock our skis with SkiKey
B) Last Saturday there was FIVE (no, really, 5) *total *racks at the main lodge.

Predictably, people were just throwing their skis all over the snow, as for every person who has SkiKey and uses it, there are 4 others without SkiKey that use those racks as well.    Anyway, the whole thing seemed odd, especially given the whole anti-theft safety push resorts have been on over the last X years.  At any rate, I've never seen so many skis littering the landscape in my life, people had absolutely nowhere to put them.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 27, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Speaking of Jay Peak bombshell...  On Saturday I noticed they removed all the SkiKey racks.
> 
> Anyone know WTH they did that?  The SkiKey racks were there just last month so this was recent.
> 
> ...



Tough call. I really, REALLY like the idea of SkiKey as a responsible way to secure your skis and promote not leaving your crap all over the place for other people to trip on. On the other hand I've never understood why SkiKey wouldn't easily expand their market by simply making them wide enough to hold a snowboard. I definitely would have bought in. So I'm simultaneously dismayed and delighted by their demise.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Tough call. I really, REALLY like the idea of SkiKey as a responsible way to secure your skis and promote not leaving your crap all over the place for other people to trip on. On the other hand* I've never understood why SkiKey wouldn't easily expand their market by simply making them wide enough to hold a snowboard. I definitely would have bought in. *So *I'm simultaneously dismayed and delighted by their demise*.



You must not be very observant.  

 SkiKey racks have been able to lock snowboards for years now.  I ski many areas, and see them all over.

It's a fantastic product, and I will contact Jay about this, if for no other reason than to decifer WTH they're thinking.

http://usa.skikey.com/


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2015)

Looks like a good product.  Only reason I have not bought in is that they are not available everywhere I ski and I already have a serviceable cable lock.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2015)

SkiKey is a great product.  My problem is similar - my home mountain doesn't use it.  

Doesn't SkiKey provide the racks free of charge?  The profit is in selling the keys, so you would think that they would not charge for the racks.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2015)

What is the benefit for buying a ski key lock?

Size? Cost?

Both would need to be pretty compelling.  I believe I paid $12 for my cable lock and it's smaller than a cell phone.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 27, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Tough call. I really, REALLY like the idea of SkiKey as a responsible way to secure your skis and promote not leaving your crap all over the place for other people to trip on. On the other hand I've never understood why SkiKey wouldn't easily expand their market by simply making them wide enough to hold a snowboard. I definitely would have bought in. So I'm simultaneously dismayed and delighted by their demise.



I have used the SkiKey rack multiple times while at Mount Snow.  I have my own cable-style lock that I use though.  I am able to stand up my board and my wife's board next to each other and lock them using the base of the SkiKey structure.  However, I do not have it sitting in there resting on the bindings like the SkiKey website shows.  I place the boards on the ground and lean them into the SkiKey rack slots, then lock them together and to the rack itself.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What is the benefit for buying a ski key lock?
> 
> Size? Cost?
> 
> Both would need to be pretty compelling.  I believe I paid $12 for my cable lock and it's smaller than a cell phone.



The price of the lock on their site is $23.95.  I'm not sure of size, but I would imagine size is similar to the example you gave.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> What is the benefit for buying a ski key lock?


1) It's smaller than even the micro locks.  
2) It's MUCH more secure than the micro lock cables.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> 1) It's smaller than even the micro locks.
> 2) It's MUCH more secure than the micro lock cables.



To be honest, I thought that they were long gone because I have not seen any racks since leaving Vermont.  I don't see them out here at all.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> To be honest, I thought that they were long gone because I have not seen any racks since leaving Vermont.  I don't see them out here at all.



The vast majority of resorts in the east have Skikey racks. I ski a bunch of places, and the only place I couldn't  this season was at Jay Peak last week (though they did have Skikey just last month when I was there.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> 1) It's smaller than even the micro locks.
> 2) It's MUCH more secure than the micro lock cables.



Those are benefits, but not compelling reasons for many lock owners to switch.

It might be smaller, but I'm fine with the size of mine at roughly half the size of a cell phone.   

It might be more secure, but I've used my lock for 6-7 years and haven't had gear stolen.  I know cable locks do get cut occasionally, but I imagine that percentage of gear theft is miniscule.  Unless you have really desirable and expensive gear a thief will move on from the cable lock to the I'm guessing the 90% of gear on the racks that isn't locked.

So, even though skikey is a great product, it's market is probably mostly people who don't own a lock already.

It does amaze me that the market usage of ski locks is so small.   It's so easy to lock stuff it's puzzling to me that so few people bother.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> So, even though skikey is a great product, it's market is probably mostly people who don't own a lock already.


I agree.  I already own a micro lock and even if my resort had Skikey racks I don't see the point in buying yet another locking device.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

VTDigger has posted another article:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/30/vtdigger-exclusive-state-raises-questions-about-anc-bio-finances/

One interesting revelation in the article is that Quiros Sr. bought 25 acres of property for $3.1 million (in September, 2011) and had a contract to sell a mere 7 out of the 25 acres to the AnC Bio EB-5 project for $6 million with payment due in January, 2013.

It is my opinion that this deal SUBSTANTIALLY outperformed the market.


----------



## burski (Mar 30, 2015)

Wow, that article does not portray Quiros or Stenger well, the insinuation and alleged wrong doings are almost too many to count.  From the non disclosure of the bankruptcy of the parent company, to the fact that they ignored the state after the state asked them to suspend any investor related work on the project.  Then the sale of a fraction of the land for 200% of the purchase price on the entire Newport parcel, if this is half as bad as this article indicates some people should be in very big trouble.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> VTDigger has posted another article:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/03/30/vtdigger-exclusive-state-raises-questions-about-anc-bio-finances/
> 
> One interesting revelation in the article is that Quiros Sr. bought 25 acres of property for $3.1 million (in September, 2011) and had a contract to sell a mere 7 out of the 25 acres to the AnC Bio EB-5 project for $6 million with payment due in January, 2013.
> ...



:blink:  Huh?



> The state also has questions about internal transactions made by the company. Typically, immigrant investor funds are kept in escrow until the capital is needed for construction. Under the 2012 private placement memorandum, the investors in AnC Bio Vermont are not only buying shares in a construction project, they are also purchasing $10 million in product distribution rights from the Korean company. Some investor funds have already been paid to AnC Bio Pharm (Korea) for the rights, according to an email from Stenger to the state.





> Stenger and Quiros took seven weeks to respond to the first official memo from ACCD, and the developers continued to delay or push back on the responses to the state’s requests, despite Kessler’s repeated warnings that the state would cancel the project if they refused to comply. The developers submitted a new offering memorandum in October, but by the end of the year many of the state’s questions remained unanswered, according to correspondence between Kessler and the developers and their attorneys.



And I guess this contradicts what Moulton said:



> In January [2015], the state’s chief financial regulator, Susan Donegan, commissioner of the Department of Financial Regulation, agreed to review the AnC Bio Vermont project and to oversee regulatory compliance for all EB-5 projects in Vermont. Donegan now has the sole authority to determine whether the biotech project should be canceled or continued. If Donegan approves the project, the developers must ask each investor to sign off on the new offering memorandum.



And how can they get "high marks" if they have not manufactured anything yet?



> Stenger and Quiros hired a global tech firm last fall, Frost and Sullivan, to conduct a market analysis for AnC Bio Vermont that was submitted to the Department of Financial Regulation earlier this month. Frost and Sullivan gives AnC Bio Vermont high marks, citing the company’s superior scientific and engineering expertise for developing organ-assistance devices that are simple, efficient, safe, small and lightweight.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 30, 2015)

Wake me up when we get to part when the Federal investigation starts.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Mar 31, 2015)

WOW!

I have to say that that this is not looking good for continuance of this project (ANC BIO) or any other for that matter.
No official in their right mind would permit this to continue with all the unanswered questions and apparent lack of cooperation from BS and AQ. following the tradition of delay, distort, deny.

It is also remarkable that the Burlington Free Press has not even mentioned any of these important developments.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 31, 2015)

LONGBOARDR said:


> *It is also remarkable that the Burlington Free Press has not even mentioned any of these important developments.*



The _Burlington Free Press_ isn't fit for kindling.  It's a biased political rag.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2015)

As are most newspapers


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2015)

The "offering letter" to investors for AnC Bio has been approved allowing fundraising to resume and construction to begin.  The business plan is still awaiting state approval.   


.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2015)

Downtown Newport.  




.


----------



## burski (Apr 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The "offering letter" to investors for AnC Bio has been approved allowing fundraising to resume and construction to begin.  The business plan is still awaiting state approval. .



I hope this is an april fools joke?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2015)

burski said:


> I hope this is an april fools joke?


It is not a joke.  There was an article in today's Caledonia Record about it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 1, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The _Burlington Free Press_ isn't fit for kindling.  It's a biased political rag.



+ 1

The BFP of 2015 is a pathetic imitation of what it once was.


----------



## dlague (Apr 1, 2015)

burski said:


> I hope this is an april fools joke?



No we were up there a couple of weeks ago and they had started this already!  Some of my childhood memories being torn down!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2015)

dlague said:


> No we were up there a couple of weeks ago and they had started this already!  Some of my childhood memories being torn down!


The downtown Newport project is NOT where AnC Bio is going to be built.  AnC Bio will be in the industrial park.  The downtown demolition is being paid for with private funds, and not EB-5 funds.


----------



## burski (Apr 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The downtown Newport project is NOT where AnC Bio is going to be built.  AnC Bio will be in the industrial park.  The downtown demolition is being paid for with private funds, and not EB-5 funds.



How can fundraising and construction move forward when the plan is not approved by the State?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2015)

burski said:


> How can fundraising and construction move forward when the plan is not approved by the State?


The "offering" was approved - which is the document given to potential investors.  The "business plan" has not been approved yet.  Apparently as long as the investors are properly aware of the risk construction can commence.  Something tells me that the revised "offering" makes the risk more clear, but that's just a hunch.


----------



## dlague (Apr 1, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The downtown Newport project is NOT where AnC Bio is going to be built.  AnC Bio will be in the industrial park.  The downtown demolition is being paid for with private funds, and not EB-5 funds.



I know!  It is going where the old Bogner plant was.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2015)

VTDigger has some good follow up on the AnC Bio and Burke projects:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/04/04/regulator-gives-anc-bio-project-partial-clearance/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> VTDigger has some good follow up on the AnC Bio and Burke projects:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/04/04/regulator-gives-anc-bio-project-partial-clearance/



I cant believe that AnC Bio project is "90% funded".  These have to be the dumbest-of-the-dumb EB-5 investors, or the richest-of-the-rich (i.e. I don't care) EB-5 investors.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 4, 2015)

> The regional center had asked for an independent appraisal of the real  estate in Newport that is to be sold to investors. *The plant is to be  built on land originally purchased by GSI of Dade County, Florida, a  company owned by Quiros. GSI bought the former Bogner plant and 25 acres  in Newport for $3.1 million in September 2011*, according to land  records.* Investors entered into a purchase and sale agreement for seven  acres of the land as part of the 2012 offering memorandum, which was  verified in a statement from Quiros. The agreement lists the price as $6  million*, and the payment was to be made by Jan. 31, 2013.



By "Investors", do they mean EB-5 patrons?

   Because if so, that's a quick $2.9 shill profit for Quiros, which should be illegal. 

 It's a total swindling fleece job if I'm reading that correctly.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> VTDigger has some good follow up on the AnC Bio and Burke projects:
> http://vtdigger.org/2015/04/04/regulator-gives-anc-bio-project-partial-clearance/



This is interesting.....



> The developers’ agreements with the Vermont Regional EB-5 Center for the AnC Bio Vermont and Q Burke Mountain Resort projects were “suspended” on June 27, 2014, according to documents from the state. The center, which is part of the Agency of Commerce and Community Development, also cancelled the West Bowl expansion at Jay Peak Resort.



But this seems inappropriate:



> In addition, Kelly said Gov. Peter Shumlin had suggested that “the state will cooperate with project developers to issue a joint press release or joint media response within the next few days to clarify and correct inaccuracies that were published by VTDigger in their recent articles.”


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

The latest:  http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=128349

I'm not sure if they have raised "90% of what is needed" and have $90 million and need 20 more investors for $10 million more dollars, or if they really have "$77 million" and need about "40 more investors", or about $20 million more.  It says both.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

On Vermont Public Radio it was reported that they need 40 more investors.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

Here is a link to the VPR article:
http://digital.vpr.net/post/scientist-explains-need-biotech-facility-newport


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> On Vermont Public Radio it was reported that they need 40 more investors.



I figured that they had $77-80 million raised and needed 40 more people.  I attributed the Cal Rec statements, regrettably, to an error or misunderstanding.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2015)

> *When  asked why AnC Bio Vt will succeed in rural Newport City, Stenger said  that it will open debt free, because it depends on EB-5* investors who  will receive a green card in exchange for creating 10 jobs.



Apparently the reporter didn't ask a follow-up noting that Stenger's response neither remotely answered the question, nor made any sense.

 Give me $120 Million in "free money" and I could build the world's largest Rita's Italian Ice in Siberia.  Debt free!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

The rationale they gave for putting the facility in Newport, Vermont is that it is near colleges and universities.  As compared to... oh... Boston?  Is there a lot of biomedical research going on at Lyndon State College?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *The rationale they gave for putting the facility in Newport, Vermont is that it is near colleges and universities.  As compared to... oh... Boston?*  Is there a lot of biomedical research going on at Lyndon State College?



It makes absolutely no sense.

They're going to have to lure people away from Boston/Cambridge, which is a leading biotech hub in America. 

 This is obvious, but I guess they cant publicly state that as it isn't _"rah, rah, pro-Vermont"_, and it also points out a weakness in their plan, so they have to go with a nonsense response instead.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> It makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> They're going to have to lure people away from Boston/Cambridge, which is a leading biotech hub in America.
> 
> This is obvious, but I guess they cant publicly state that as it isn't _"rah, rah, pro-Vermont"_, and it also points out a weakness in their plan, so they have to go with a nonsense response instead.



There is some truth to this.  I think that they would say that they are trying to bring opportunity to a different part of the country and one that is cheaper in terms of land.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Apparently the reporter didn't ask a follow-up noting that Stenger's response neither remotely answered the question, nor made any sense.
> 
> Give me $120 Million in "free money" and I could build the world's largest Rita's Italian Ice in Siberia.  Debt free!


Another interesting point.  On the one hand they are saying that the business is debt free.  On the other hand, they are saying that the investors will hopefully be paid back in 5-7 years with interest.  Which is it?  And why doesn't a reporter point out these inconsistencies?


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

By the way, the State is looking into the purchase of the real estate from Quiros at a near 100% markup.  The state is requiring an independent appraisal.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Another interesting point.  *On the one hand they are saying that the business is debt free.  On the other hand, they are saying that the investors will hopefully be paid back in 5-7 years with interest.*  Which is it?  And why doesn't a reporter point out these inconsistencies?



Why doesn't a reporter ask to see their revenue projections?  Because that I would LOVE to see.   

Once this thing gets built and is operational, their cash burn rate is going to be greater than their revenue.  

Better keep "building" things to keep those $500,000 checks rolling in.  Maybe they can build a zipline in on the roof of the plant.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 7, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> There is some truth to this.  I think that they would say that they are trying to bring opportunity to a different part of the country and one that is cheaper in terms of land.



So it is easier for Mr. Q to make quick money on a land swap ?


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 7, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> So it is easier for Mr. Q to make quick money on a land swap ?



Yeah that does not smell good....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *the State is looking into the purchase of the real estate from Quiros at a near 100% markup. *


Someone woke up the Keystone Cops?



VTKilarney said:


> The state is requiring an* independent appraisal*.



And it might even be competent work?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2015)

This is interesting

I thought the point of EB-5 was to bring investment into areas of the country in need of job creation.  Obviously new jobs are great anywhere, but I would put Boston near the bottom of the list regarding "need" compared to other locations.

I guess I just assumed EB-5 was only happening in rural areas, but apparently not:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/business...ssachusetts/IqXv0YbV5i1cJJKhTh9dGP/story.html


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 15, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> This is interesting
> 
> I thought the point of EB-5 was to bring investment into areas of the country in need of job creation.  Obviously new jobs are great anywhere, but I would put Boston near the bottom of the list regarding "need" compared to other locations.
> 
> ...






> The investors must demonstrate their money has led to at least 10 new  jobs, *but the requirement is broadly construed*. It can include workers  at a new building, construction workers who built it, or service workers  at nearby restaurants benefiting from the increased activity.



I thought it had to create 10 new jobs that didn't exist before? If only construction workers need to be employed... for the construction... where are all the new jobs for the area??


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2015)

EB-5 is not limited to rural areas.  The amount of investment required is lower for rural and high unemployment areas - $500,000 versus $1 million.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I thought it had to create 10 new jobs that didn't exist before? If only construction workers need to be employed... for the construction... where are all the new jobs for the area??



I am pretty sure that they can not count the construction workers towards the required 10 created jobs per investment.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2015)

Can't rural areas count indirect job creation?


.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2015)

Yes - they can count indirect jobs. Those would be jobs created outside of the commercial enterprise, that support the enterprise. For example, it the commercial enterprise requires "Widget A" to manufacture their product and a company next door has to hire 10 additional people to meet the increased demand for "Widget A's", that would count in the job creation totals.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> EB-5 is not limited to rural areas.  The amount of investment required is lower for rural and high unemployment areas - $500,000 versus $1 million.



By the looks of that article the investment amount was only 500k for the Boston project...  That's not my definition of a "rural" area Lol!



> Samuels hopes to use the program to entice about 100 foreign investors  to put up nearly $50 million for his $290 million development, the  Point, at Boylston Street and Brookline Avenue.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2015)

That neighborhood is the hottest real estate in New England right now BY FAR.   Absolutely no need to funnel EB-5 money there.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 15, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> By the looks of that article the investment amount was only 500k for the Boston project...  That's not my definition of a "rural" area Lol!



Speak for yourself!

-some insular new yorker


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2015)

Not Fenway, but the Seaport where the restaurant in the article is located.  Fenway is booming too though


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2015)

The 500K does not apply to just rural areas, it can be used in targeted unemployment areas as well.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 15, 2015)

mbedle said:


> The 500K does not apply to just rural areas, it can be used in targeted unemployment areas as well.



As I had stated earlier.  


.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2015)

That was in response to some other posts talking about this area in Boston being rural.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 15, 2015)

mbedle said:


> The 500K does not apply to just rural areas, it can be used in targeted unemployment areas as well.



But the area next to Fenway Park qualified... wonders never cease.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 15, 2015)

I can't explain that - not sure how that area qualifies for the underemployed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2015)

It depends on census data regarding demographics (income, etc).  My understanding was what VTK said--rural areas with underemployment qualified for the $500k tier; others were $1 mill.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2015)

Downtown Newport.  




.


----------



## billski (Jun 11, 2015)

thanks for the photo VTK.  I sure hope their pockets and commitment are deep enough to complete the project.  I can name several that for years sat as empty holes, sucking the lifeblood out of an area.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 12, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Downtown Newport.
> 
> View attachment 17022
> 
> ...



Is it me or are things at a standstill?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 12, 2015)

There was no activity that I could see.  


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 12, 2015)

Is it me or are things looking like Beirut?


----------



## mriceyman (Jun 15, 2015)

That just looks depressing


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## tumbler (Jun 19, 2015)

Anyone going to Widespread tonight? Ski area concerts are always fun. Saw them at Bolton around 2000


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 19, 2015)

I wish.  I was at the Boston show on Wednesday.  Classic Panic show.  All Mikey era tunes except for the encore.  They crushed it


----------



## tumbler (Jun 19, 2015)

I was there too and I agree they crushed it.  The sound like Mikey era again.  Jimmy has put more effect on the guitar and Duane Trucks has made a HUGE difference.  Everything a half beat faster and driving the band.  They looked like they were having fun


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 19, 2015)

Yeah, I'll take Duane at this point.  Seen many great shows with Todd since the 90s, but I think the cheeseburgers have caught up with him.  He really played lazy often in recent years.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 24, 2015)

VTDigger has a new article.  It is WELL worth the read.
http://vtdigger.org/2015/06/24/jay-peak-projects-under-sec-investigation/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *VTDigger has a new article.  It is WELL worth the read.*




I'll just take my victory lap now given I called this literally months ago....



> *The Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating Jay Peak ski resort’s EB-5 projects* in the Northeast Kingdom.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

> *Stenger says the SEC review is “fully voluntary* and is something that many large projects are participating in nationwide. We welcome the voluntary review and have cooperated fully and will continue to,” Stenger said in a statement.



Wait, he said what now?   

Does Bill Stenger have the foggiest idea what the SEC is, who they are, and what they do?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

> A news report on the federal probe, Raymond said, would be damaging  to investors because it would expose *the “many layers of inadequately  disclosed business entities, new principals and gross  misrepresentations” at Jay Peak*.



Brent Raymond is the same guy, who about 12 minutes ago claimed everything at Jay Peak was perfectly on the up and up and going completely fantastic.  I realize I've said it 1000 times over the last year or so, but *HOW IN GOD'S NAME THIS GUY STILL HAS HIS JOB IS COMPLETELY BEYOND ME*. 

 I'm aware that it's virtually impossible to fire a government employee, which is part of why the government is such an inefficient catastrophe, but this is completely absurd.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

> Raymond says* the developers have not disclosed or explained familial  relationships and “self-dealing” relationships and closely held  interests among various business entities and management structures.  Ariel Quiros, Ary Quiros, his son, Okcha Quiros, his wife, Jongweon Choi  and Bill Stenger are the principals of several dozen interrelated  companies.*



Illegal much?    This is getting real interesting. 



> A spreadsheet provided to the securities division of DFR shows that *the  following documents were still missing: monthly bank statements and  reconciliations, general ledger, budgets and third party financial  statements for June 2013-March 2015; a detailed job cost report; a list  of owners and ownership interests; purchase and sales agreements;  account signing authority; budgets and actual expenditure reports; tax  returns for 2013 and 2014; and identification of accounting software.*



What the hell exactly, *DID *they give them?  The above is virtually a comprehensive list of literally every single item an auditor would need to satisfactorily conduct his or her job.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 25, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wait, he said what now?
> 
> Does Bill Stenger have the foggiest idea what the SEC is, who they are, and what they do?



Typical play on words. This is directly off the SEC website describing how SEC conducts investigations:

Enforcement receives information about possible violations from many sources, including market surveillance activities, investor tips and complaints, whistleblower submissions, other divisions and offices of the SEC, self-regulatory organizations and other securities industry sources, and media reports.  If Enforcement opens an investigation, it may request documents and interview witnesses on a voluntary basis.  If authorized with a formal order of investigation, Enforcement can issue subpoenas requiring the production of documents and witness testimony.  Enforcement develops the facts in an SEC investigation primarily through interviewing witnesses under oath and analyzing documents and data (e.g., emails, brokerage records, and trading data).


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

Folks in Newport better get used to this view.  




.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2015)

Local MTB community should ask permission to make a temporary urban bike park.   Would be a good use of the space instead of just a hole in the ground.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 25, 2015)

Whatever it is used for, I've thought that a park would be really nice for that space.  Perhaps with a splash pad for kids and an outdoor skating rink.  There is definitely some potential there - but who knows if Stenger and Quiros will give the property up for use as a park.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 25, 2015)

mbedle said:


> *Typical play on words.*



Very clever, and I suspect you're right!  



VTKilarney said:


> There is definitely some potential there - but *who knows if Stenger and Quiros will give the property up for use as a park.*



I have a feeling they're not going to have a say when this reaches it's long & winding conclusion.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 8, 2015)

fwiw-NYC getting on the EB5 game to build the worlds largest ferris wheel on staten island.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/n...o-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 8, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> fwiw-*NYC getting on the EB5 game to build the worlds largest ferris wheel on staten island.*



Good lord, what a scam.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 8, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Good lord, what a scam.



what do you care if some foreigners are allowed to "buy" a visa?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> what do you care if some foreigners are allowed to "buy" a visa?



I think that he is talking about the project itself and not EB-5 in general.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that he is talking about the project itself and not EB-5 in general.



Oh....never mind.  
Actually, I think that the ferris wheel will be quite popular.  It's unbelievable the amount of tourists in NYC nowadays.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 8, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that he is talking about the project itself and not EB-5 in general.



I was.

Though I think EB-5 is a horrible program as well.


----------



## Domeskier (Jul 8, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> It's unbelievable the amount of tourists in NYC nowadays.



It would be nice if this caused them to head to Staten Island for a change...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 8, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> *It would be nice if this caused them to head to Staten Island for a change.*..



It will.   

For however long it takes them to ride the Ferris Wheel, then get back directly back onto the ferry.  Which they already know of course.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 8, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> It would be nice if this caused them to head to Staten Island for a change...


That's the point.
each ride is over a half hour.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 13, 2015)

Why do marketing departments insist on posting photos like this on Facebook?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2015)

That chick on the right is really hot. Slap her thighs & ride the ripple.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jul 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> That chick on the right is really hot. Slap her thighs & ride the ripple.



Ahem, somebodies Mom, Sister or Daughter, respect please.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> That chick on the right is really hot. Slap her thighs & ride the ripple.



F-


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> That chick on the right is really hot. Slap her thighs & ride the ripple.



It's Vermont.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's Vermont.



Actually it's more likely to be Jersey or NY than VT.  VT has one of the lowest obesity rates in the country

http://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/


And I agree with LONGBOARDER


----------



## River19 (Jul 14, 2015)

I were in that band I would just be happy as heck that she came out to see me......having done the whole working band thing for a long time I feel for them.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 14, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Why do marketing departments insist on posting photos like this on Facebook?
> 
> View attachment 17175
> 
> View attachment 17176



You should.


----------



## River19 (Jul 14, 2015)

ScottySkis said:


> You should.



Call me thick, but I don't get it.......

Are you saying you should post pictures of sparsely attended events thinking that will make people want to be there or come to the next one?

Maybe I'm missing something.....entirely possible....


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 14, 2015)

I think he was responding to you post and was saying that you should feel for them. By I really don't know.  I stopped taking Scotty Speak after my freshman year in high school.


.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 15, 2015)

53.8% of females in VT. are considered obese.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ss20 (Jul 15, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Why do marketing departments insist on posting photos like this on Facebook?
> 
> View attachment 17175
> 
> View attachment 17176



Good god.  Looks like the kind of people I see at the NASCAR races.  Need less shirts though.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> 53.8% of females in VT. are considered obese.
> 
> MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!



Thought I saw that lady powering the K-1 gondi.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 15, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Thought I saw that lady powering the K-1 gondi.


Yep that was her


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 15, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> 53.8% of females in VT. are considered obese.
> 
> MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!



The report posted says 23% same as Jersey and .1 higher than New York.

http://stateofobesity.org/states/vt/

this is the troubling statement
"Twenty states now have adult obesity rates at or above 30 percent, 43  states have rates of at least 25 percent, and every state is above 20  percent. In 1980, no state was above 15 percent; in 1991, no state was  above 20 percent; in 2000, no state was above 25 percent; and, in 2007,  only Mississippi was above 30 percent."


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 15, 2015)

*Correction I should have said overweight or obese.


Overweight and Obesity Rates for Adults by Gender*

View Table in New Window

LocationFemaleUnited States57.6%Alabama64.8%Alaska58.8%Arizona53.9%Arkansas65.2%California52.8%Colorado48.9%Connecticut55.8%Delaware58.5%District of Columbia49.2%Florida55.3%Georgia61.3%Hawaii45.7%Idaho56.8%Illinois60.3%Indiana62.2%Iowa60.3%Kansas59.2%Kentucky63.2%Louisiana62.4%Maine58.9%Maryland59.7%Massachusetts48.7%Michigan61.3%Minnesota52.4%Mississippi66.0%Missouri58.4%Montana53.2%Nebraska58.6%Nevada56.4%New Hampshire53.8%New Jersey54.6%New Mexico57.5%New York54.7%North Carolina60.4%North Dakota58.9%Ohio59.5%Oklahoma62.8%Oregon52.3%Pennsylvania57.6%Rhode Island57.6%South Carolina63.2%South Dakota59.5%Tennessee63.4%Texas61.2%Utah51.8%*Vermont**53.8%*Virginia58.1%Washington55.3%West Virginia63.4%Wisconsin59.6%Wyoming56.7%Guam58.7%Puerto Rico62.4%


----------



## Jully (Jul 15, 2015)

Hahaha, but you're still more likely to find an overweight or obese female in almost any other state than Vermont.  Vermont is 4% below the national average in the data you just showed.

Regardless it's still insanely troubling though


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 15, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> VT has one of the lowest obesity rates in the country



That's extremely difficult for me to believe, at least from my wanderings/perception, but who knows.   Though I wasn't merely speaking about weight in my comment, but just overall "beat-upp-ed-ness" as well.  Really tough place to find attractive women.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's extremely difficult for me to believe, at least from my wanderings/perception, but who knows.   Though I wasn't merely speaking about weight in my comment, but just overall "beat-upp-ed-ness" as well.  Really tough place to find attractive women.



It all depends on their sampling pool.  Most national pollsters are not going to know that one needs to get out of, say, Chittenden County to see that Vermont is VERY different.  I'd be willing to bet that this poll was based upon data from the BTV metro area.  Translation: skewed data.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2015)

I would think the HHS and CDC would keep taps on this information through annual surveys of PCPs.   Everyone's BMI is in their charts.  With the growing rate of obesity related diseases such as diabetes and heart disease, there has to be a government body monitoring these trends to forecast funding for Medicare and Medicaid.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 15, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's extremely difficult for me to believe, at least from my wanderings/perception, but who knows.   Though I wasn't merely speaking about weight in my comment, but just overall "beat-upp-ed-ness" as well.  Really tough place to find attractive women.


Did you take a look at the over weight/obesity rates for men? Ming.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 18, 2015)

They were much more careful with their photos of Battle of the Band week number two.  All were close-ups except they let one slip:





.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jul 20, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> That chick on the right is really hot. Slap her thighs & ride the ripple.



Call me a cynic but I have a feeling you aren't exactly a catch either.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 20, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Call me a cynic but I have a feeling you aren't exactly a catch either.


Not at my age but still weighing in at 6ft., 180lbs.

Then again my wife still considers me a catch as I do her.

All that matters to me.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2015)

Brent Raymond has taken a job with Mt. Snow.  


.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Brent Raymond has taken a job with Mt. Snow.
> 
> 
> .



And so the revolving door continues......


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *Brent Raymond has taken a job with Mt. Snow.  *



I thought you were kidding, so I Googled it.  



> Brent Raymond has resigned as Vermont’s director of international  trade, where *his primary duty was to oversee the state’s EB-5* immigrant  investor program. Raymond said Monday *he has accepted a position working for Mt. Snow* and Peak Resorts....




Positively amazing.

So the guy who was ostensibly in charge of EB-5 oversight (which turned out to be a complete lack of oversight) for Vermont, whose real "job" we learned was "making it rain" EB-5 money on Jay Peak & Burke with zero financial accounting .......that guy...... is now going to work for Mount Snow, which seeks to be the new king of Vermont EB-5 money.

Yeah, because there's nothing blatantly and obviously shady about that at all.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...trade-eb-immigrant-investor-program/30438905/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I thought you were kidding, so I Googled it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The term "conflict of interest" does not exist in Vermont.  

Last week the Commissioner of ANR announced he was stepping down.  His replacement is married to the President of VPIRG, a very active environmental lobbying group.  When folks questioned the Governor's office about it, and the possible conflict of interest, they were told to shut up and not worry.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 21, 2015)

Good move on Mount Snow's part bringing him into the fold.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 21, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Good move on Mount Snow's part bringing him into the fold.



Well, they started their EB-5 program long after Jay started, and they've already raised enough money to embark on their 2 year snowmaking plan that replaces most of their snowmaking system.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 21, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Well, they started their EB-5 program long after Jay started, and they've already raised enough money to embark on their 2 year snowmaking plan that replaces most of their snowmaking system.



I'm not really sure what your point was in the comment. As I understand it, they have a lot of other EB5 projects they are pursuing. Given the new review process that this project will be under, it can only be an asset to have Raymond on board.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Well, they started their EB-5 program long after Jay started, and they've already raised enough money to embark on their 2 year snowmaking plan that replaces most of their snowmaking system.



Interesting that they are using EB5 for snowmaking when Jay, Burke, and Sugarbush did not.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## machski (Jul 21, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Well, they started their EB-5 program long after Jay started, and they've already raised enough money to embark on their 2 year snowmaking plan that replaces most of their snowmaking system.



I do not believe this to be the case.  EB-5 money was suppose to be for their expanded real estate plans.  I believe the snowmaking upgrades are being financed traditionally.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2015)

machski said:


> I do not believe this to be the case.  EB-5 money was suppose to be for their expanded real estate plans.  I believe the snowmaking upgrades are being financed traditionally.



That was how other places have done it.


----------



## HowieT2 (Jul 21, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> That was how other places have done it.



Yeah, well, that way the eb5 investors get an interest in whatever real estate entity is set up, but not the resort entity itself.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jul 21, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not at my age but still weighing in at 6ft., 180lbs.
> 
> Then again my wife still considers me a catch as I do her.
> 
> All that matters to me.



And with such a sparkling personality you sure are a keeper.


Whoa was that Ben Affleck???

Nope...even better! It's steamboat1


----------



## ss20 (Jul 21, 2015)

machski said:


> I do not believe this to be the case.  EB-5 money was suppose to be for their expanded real estate plans.  I believe the snowmaking upgrades are being financed traditionally.



http://mountsnoweb5.com/carinthia-1-lp-project/



> Mount Snow’s first offering, the Carinthia LP project, is comprised of two construction projects: West Lake Water Project LLC and Carinthia Ski Lodge LLC.



They're doing limbo under the red tape.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 21, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> And with such a sparkling personality you sure are a keeper.
> 
> 
> Whoa was that Ben Affleck???
> ...


It's nice having a fan club.


----------



## machski (Jul 24, 2015)

ss20 said:


> http://mountsnoweb5.com/carinthia-1-lp-project/
> 
> 
> 
> They're doing limbo under the red tape.



Well, I'm guessing the water project with the reservoir build up, pipe runs and all the pump stations is likely a multi-year build project.  As such, they will likely show job gains for 2 years minimum on the project which could qualify it for EB-5 monies.  Normally they have to show long term job growth so the water project tied in with the Carinthia lodge (which will add new positions and jobs theoretically) may have given them the numbers needed.  Sounds like the 2 projects were offered as an EB-5 in a package deal.  Smart on their part, wonder why Jay hasn't done this.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2015)

How is construction coming along this summer?  Are the condos being built EB-5 funded?


.


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## fbrissette (Jul 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How is construction coming along this summer?  Are the condos being built EB-5 funded?
> 
> 
> .



The new condos are all being built and are all EB-5 funded AFAIK.  Condo resale is very slow which is not surprising the value of the canadian dollar.

Nothing has moved as of yet for the rec center.   They fenced the construction area two months ago but it has not started.  I would assume that they will delay the project once again.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2015)

How does Mont Tremblant compare to Jay Peak for overnight rates?  You can get a one  bedroom condo in the Tremblant village during ski season for about $150 CAD, which is a great deal.  (You have to book ahead of time to get that rate.)  But when you add lift tickets, is Tremblant still substantially cheaper than Jay Peak?

I ask because it seems that you REALLY have to want to own a condo when Tremblant is so affordable.  Add to that the $99 youth season passes at Tremblant, and there seems to be some real competition.  

And even then, buying a condo in Tremblant gives you a true four season resort town, whereas Jay is not.  But Jay also gets a lot more snow, so I can see advantages for both locations.


.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How does Mont Tremblant compare to Jay Peak for overnight rates?  You can get a one  bedroom condo in the Tremblant village during ski season for about $150 CAD, which is a great deal.  (You have to book ahead of time to get that rate.)  But when you add lift tickets, is Tremblant still substantially cheaper than Jay Peak?
> 
> I ask because it seems that you REALLY have to want to own a condo when Tremblant is so affordable.  Add to that the $99 youth season passes at Tremblant, and there seems to be some real competition.
> 
> ...



Choosing between Tremblant and Jay Peak (especially when buying real estate) has little to do with money.   Mont Tremblant is glitzy. You have a big 'walking only' village, lots of restaurants and bars (with professional staff) and a huge activity center that offers 60 or 70 different trips/activities (no need to take your car) all year around.  You get a shitload of tourists (more in the summer than winter nowadays) and you'll hear french, english, japanese, chinese, italian while walking around.  The place is busy all the time and super organized. As to the skiing, it has fast modern lifts, very large uphill capacity and excellent snowmaking.  This means - lots of skiers going downhill, lots of fast groomed runs, and new snow that gets tracked really really fast.   Backcountry/slackcountry options are limited.

Jay Peak is the anti-Tremblant and that's why we chose it.  It is disorganized and has a strong local flavour outside of the big holiday week-ends.  Summers are quiet, the roads are fantastic for cycling, there is great hiking (where you are all alone) and outstanding swimming holes.  You all know what the skiing is like.

The old Tremblant , where I learned to ski, was a lot like Jay Peak.   Intrawest made it into what it is today.  Good for business and jobs, and a great place for a short holiday, but not a place where I wanted to buy real estate.

Notwithstanding the exchange rate, you can get relatively cheap slopeside accommodation at both resorts if you book ahead.  But Tremblant has the very expensive luxury hotels and restaurants so you can spend a lot of money if you so desire.  Its hard to spend a lot of money on food at Jay Peak.

When we bought our Jay Peak condo (2009), real estate was much much cheaper at Jay.  At that time a tiny 2 bedroom condo at Tremblant started at 150k for quarter ownership.   The market has gone down significantly at Tremblant since then (Tremblant is currently the most depressed housing market in Canada).


----------



## marcski (Jul 28, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Choosing between Tremblant and Jay Peak (especially when buying real estate) has little to do with money.   Mont Tremblant is glitzy. You have a big 'walking only' village, lots of restaurants and bars (with professional staff) and a huge activity center that offers 60 or 70 different trips/activities (no need to take your car) all year around.  You get a shitload of tourists (more in the summer than winter nowadays) and you'll hear french, english, japanese, chinese, italian while walking around.  The place is busy all the time and super organized. As to the skiing, it has fast modern lifts, very large uphill capacity and excellent snowmaking.  This means - lots of skiers going downhill, lots of fast groomed runs, and new snow that gets tracked really really fast.   Backcountry/slackcountry options are limited.
> 
> Jay Peak is the anti-Tremblant and that's why we chose it.  It is disorganized and has a strong local flavour outside of the big holiday week-ends.  Summers are quiet, the roads are fantastic for cycling, there is great hiking (where you are all alone) and outstanding swimming holes.  You all know what the skiing is like.
> 
> ...



I was skiing solo at Jay a few years ago and found myself on the chair with a couple from Montreal.  We started talking and I asked why they prefer Jay to Tremblant.  Their response was (spoken with a French-Canadian accent) that "at Tremblant, they think their shit doesn't smell."


----------



## crank (Jul 28, 2015)

I think Jay Peak gets a lot more snow and has a lot more tree skiing.  Tremblant takes the prize for lodging, dining and entertainment though.  I have found it easier to get good deals on lodging at Tremblant as well.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 28, 2015)

marcski said:


> I was skiing solo at Jay a few years ago and found myself on the chair with a couple from Montreal.  We started talking and I asked why they prefer Jay to Tremblant.  Their response was (spoken with a French-Canadian accent) that "at Tremblant, they think their shit doesn't smell."



Funny.  Wasn't my wife and I.   

You'll see at Tremblant:  lots of fancy ski suits (Spyder, Descente) with top of the line Slalom ski and boots (on good AND shitty skiers)
You won't see at Tremblant: ski jackets repaired with duct tape, full rockered fat skis, stoned lifties


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks for that info.  I can definitely see how both places have their appeal.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2015)

RE: deals, the CAD/USD is going to put a hurt on Jay Peak this winter; currently sitting at .77 USD.  They haven't had to deal with a Canuck dollar this weak in many years.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 28, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Funny.  Wasn't my wife and I.
> 
> You'll see at Tremblant:  lots of fancy ski suits (Spyder, Descente) with top of the line Slalom ski and boots (on good AND shitty skiers)
> You won't see at Tremblant: ski jackets repaired with duct tape, full rockered fat skis, stoned lifties


Must be something about Intrawest ownership, Stratton is the same way.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 28, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> RE: deals, the CAD/USD is going to put a hurt on Jay Peak this winter; currently sitting at .77 USD.  They haven't had to deal with a Canuck dollar this weak in many years.



They do take canadian money at par (with proof of residency) on many items so it may not impact canadian visitors that much.  But it will hurt Jay peak's wallet for sure in the end no matter what.   It is hurting condo resale big time however.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> *They do take canadian money at par* (with proof of residency) on many items so it may not impact canadian visitors that much.  But *it will hurt Jay peak's wallet for sure* in the end no matter what.



That's what I was referring to.

But are you 100% sure they check for proof of Canadian citizenship prior to accepting CAD as legal tender?    They didn't used to do that (and I'm not sure if it's legal to do so if they currently are).


----------



## dlague (Jul 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's what I was referring to.
> 
> But are you 100% sure they check for proof of Canadian citizenship prior to accepting CAD as legal tender?    They didn't used to do that (and I'm not sure if it's legal to do so if they currently are).



When we skied there in the early 2000s when the US currency was strong we tried paying with Canadian $s and they wanted proof that we were from Canada.  We ended up having some folks from Montreal buy our lift tickets.


----------



## fbrissette (Jul 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's what I was referring to.
> 
> But are you 100% sure they check for proof of Canadian citizenship prior to accepting CAD as legal tender?    They didn't used to do that (and I'm not sure if it's legal to do so if they currently are).



Never been asked for ID.  Same for my wife who speaks flawless English (no French accent).  We look like honest people I guess.


----------



## dlague (Jul 29, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Never been asked for ID.  Same for my wife who speaks flawless English (no French accent).  We look like honest people I guess.



Must be!


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> But are you 100% sure they check for proof of Canadian citizenship prior to accepting CAD as legal tender?    They didn't used to do that (and I'm not sure if it's legal to do so if they currently are).


I am curious as to why it might not be legal.  I know that Disney World, for example, offers a season pass rate that is only valid for Florida residents.  Lots of ski areas offer promotions to locals only.  It seems like a common practice.


----------



## dlague (Jul 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I am curious as to why it might not be legal.  I know that Disney World, for example, offers a season pass rate that is only valid for Florida residents.  Lots of ski areas offer promotions to locals only.  It seems like a common practice.



Burke used to have deals targeted to Quebec residents in an effort to draw more skiers from that area.  I told them they should to the same to draw from Boston region then.


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 29, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Nothing has moved as of yet for the rec center.   They fenced the construction area two months ago but it has not started.  I would assume that they will delay the project once again.



I heard that when they dug the hole for the foundation they hit a lot of water. That hole has been there for two months and the dirt reseeded. My guess is they had to at least redesign the foundation.

Anybody hear anything else about it?


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Jul 29, 2015)

JPTracker said:


> I heard that when they dug the hole for the foundation they hit a lot of water. That hole has been there for two months and the dirt reseeded. My guess is they had to at least redesign the foundation.
> 
> Anybody hear anything else about it?



I heard the same thing...off the record in a local watering hole.
Not surprising, there is so much water there and numerous artesian wells on the mtn


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## steamboat1 (Jul 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> RE: deals, the CAD/USD is going to put a hurt on Jay Peak this winter; currently sitting at .77 USD.  They haven't had to deal with a Canuck dollar this weak in many years.


Sounds like it might be a good year to head up to QC again. Little ways to go seeing my bucks worth about $1.28. Last time I was up there it was worth $1.38.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 29, 2015)

The USD was worth less than the CAD 2 years ago.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> *I am curious as to why it might not be legal.*  I know that Disney World, for example, offers a season pass rate that is only valid for Florida residents.  Lots of ski areas offer promotions to locals only.  It seems like a common practice.



I'm not sure at all that it's not legal, I just find it odd and think it possible it may not be legal.  Conceptually, there's a big difference between offering a discount to people from a given area, and discriminating against the form of legal tender that may be accepted by people from a given area.  The former is simply a discount by region, the latter is the specie you'll do commerce with (or not) due to region.  It might be perfectly legal, and I have no idea that it isnt, but when I was young and poor, I bought Jay Peak lift tickets a few times in CAD, and like fbrissette was never asked if I was a Canuck.  Knew others that did too, and never heard them say they were questioned either.



SIKSKIER said:


> The USD was worth less than the CAD 2 years ago.



Which is good for Jay Peak.



steamboat1 said:


> Sounds like it might be a good year to head up to QC again. Little ways to go seeing my bucks worth about $1.28. Last time I was up there it was worth $1.38.



I remember going to Lake Louise when $1 USD was about $1.65 CAD.  

You paid for a pitcher of beer with a $20 bill and got a pitcher of beer and a $20 bill back.  Good times!


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2015)

A GAO report has come out that is VERY damning of EB-5.

Some highlights from a recent article:
_As of May 2015, the Securities and Exchange Commission and other federal law enforcement agencies had 59 open investigations relating to EB-5 projects, 35 of which “primarily involved securities fraud issues,” according to the report.

… In its report, the GAO raises concerns about the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services’ ability to keep up with “constantly evolving” schemes to defraud investors. …The GAO also questions USCIS’ methodology for tracking the number of jobs created through the program._

Stenger, ever the optimist, "welcomed" the GAO report.

Full article here: http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...ys-feds-investigating-dozens-of-eb-5-projects


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2015)

The GAO didn't seem to worry about the government's own _"methodology for tracking the number of jobs created through" _the economic stimulus program a few years ago.  What a total **** show that was.    The pot calling the kettle black isn't a strong enough phrase to use here.


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## JPTracker (Aug 17, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> The new condos are all being built and are all EB-5 funded AFAIK.  Condo resale is very slow which is not surprising the value of the canadian dollar.
> 
> Nothing has moved as of yet for the rec center.   They fenced the construction area two months ago but it has not started.  I would assume that they will delay the project once again.



Heard a new rumor regarding the rec center and new condos. Rumor has it that DEW has walked off the job in disputes over not getting paid. They are only staying to complete the condos that have already been started.


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## LONGBOARDR (Aug 17, 2015)

JPTracker said:


> Heard a new rumor regarding the rec center and new condos. Rumor has it that DEW has walked off the job in disputes over not getting paid. They are only staying to complete the condos that have already been started.



I heard the same rumor with payments in arrears of 800k+.
They were back on the job as of late last week when I was biking by.
Not a good sign.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 17, 2015)

I heard that rumor a couple of weeks ago from a very reliable source.   


.


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## fbrissette (Aug 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I heard that rumor a couple of weeks ago from a very reliable source.
> 
> .



Good grief.  This project is supposedly fully EB5-financed, which means the money should be there.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 17, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Good grief.  This project is supposedly fully EB5-financed, which means the money should be there.



Exactly.  "Supposedly" fully funded.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 17, 2015)

I am sure that Stenger will say that DEW allegedly walking off is a "good thing" for the EB-5 projects.  


.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 17, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I am sure that Stenger will say that DEW allegedly walking off is a "good thing" for the EB-5 projects.
> 
> 
> .



They needed a well-deserved break because they were working SO hard!


----------



## River19 (Aug 17, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> They needed a well-deserved break because they were working SO hard!




"Everything is fine, everyone is Happy !!!!!"


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2015)




----------



## burski (Aug 20, 2015)

Another VT Digger Article on Jay - http://vtdigger.org/2015/08/19/jay-...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-86bba5dbb4-286333017

This appears as it ultimately could affect West Bowl.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2015)

burski said:


> *
> This appears as it ultimately could affect West Bowl.*




*SPOILER ALERT:*  The West Bowl in not happening.


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 20, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> *SPOILER ALERT:*  The West Bowl in not happening.



I don't think this is the biggest hurdle to the West Bowl project anyway.

I can tell you that Jay Peak has been going crazy those past few months on erosion control all over the place, including high up on the mountain.  They have laid out geotextiles everywhere, relayered rocks on most stream and are putting hay all over bare grounds.  I had already figured out that they had failed their requalification on stream quality.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Aug 20, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> I don't think this is the biggest hurdle to the West Bowl project anyway.
> 
> I can tell you that Jay Peak has been going crazy those past few months on erosion control all over the place, including high up on the mountain.  They have laid out geotextiles everywhere, relayered rocks on most stream and are putting hay all over bare grounds.  I had already figured out that they had failed their requalification on stream quality.



I didn't think that west bowl was going to happen either, with them not paying contractors on time for current projects.
Even if they got Eb-5 money for a lodge and hotel, where is 25 million for lifts going to come from?
To be honest,  I am ecstatic, it is so easy to ski West Bowl and the woods and wildlife are amazing.
The depth of snow there is often breathtaking. 
I was hiking in west bowl and vicinity last week, there was a good amount of suspended sediment in some of the streams so that does not help JPRs case


----------



## ss20 (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm just gonna leave this here...

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=304

How's EB-5 been working for you guys?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2015)

If I'm a foreign investor looking at EB-5 choices in Vermont (assuming I've done research and know my azz from my ears), you'd better believe I'm investing my money in SKIS rather than Jay Peak / Burke.

 A publicly traded company with open financials routinely filed with the SEC, is a wee-bit better bet than what might be lurking behind Door number 3 at Jay Peak / Burke.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2015)

New article:
http://vtdigger.org/2015/10/27/dissident-tram-haus-investors-file-formal-complaint-with-state/


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 28, 2015)

I never heard what happened with the forensic accountant who started sniffing around.  I'm surprised VTDigger hasn't provided an update on that end. 

Also.....



> While *it is unclear the scope of the federal regulatory review*, Donegan  has said *state regulators are looking forward, not backward, at Jay Peak  projects*



The Feds are clearly looking at the prior work, and with obvious good reason.

And I wish the Feds would intervene with the forward projects as well, because the Vermont State crew has proved itself intellectually unfit to handle the accounting for a 5¢ lemonade stand.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

This is not going away.


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 28, 2015)

curious what the effects are of the weakness of the canadian dollar on Jay.  I assume they count on a lot of canadian customers.


----------



## machski (Oct 28, 2015)

HowieT2 said:


> curious what the effects are of the weakness of the canadian dollar on Jay.  I assume they count on a lot of canadian customers.



Last I knew, they take CAD at par with USD.  So they may take a slight loss depending on their client ratio given the weak CAD.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2015)

machski said:


> Last I knew, they take CAD at par with USD.  So they may take a slight loss depending on their client ratio given the weak CAD.



+ 1.  They rely HEAVILY on the Canadians to cross the border.  They've taken CAD at par for a long time.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2015)

Lodging is only 50% at par, IIRC.  


.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Lodging is only 50% at par, IIRC.



Does that mean if you have a $200 room rate, you pay $100 USD and $100 CAD for a net $176 room?


----------



## HowieT2 (Oct 28, 2015)

machski said:


> Last I knew, they take CAD at par with USD.  So they may take a slight loss depending on their client ratio given the weak CAD.



Not so slight right now.  Guess they have to, but that's a significant hit.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does that mean if you have a $200 room rate, you pay $100 USD and $100 CAD for a net $176 room?



If you show proof of Canadian residency.  


.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 28, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> If you show proof of Canadian residency.
> .



Was this ever definitively established?  

I've never seen anyone asked.    And is it legal to accept a currency as legal tender from one group of people, but deny it to another?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2015)

It's definitely their policy:
http://jaypeakresort.com/about/jay-peaks-exchange-rate-policy/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's definitely their policy:



 So there it is; thanks.



> *Canadian guests must provide proof of current residency to pay in Canadian cash.*



I've seen many people pay in CAD over the years, and I've never heard anyone ask.  Perhaps they don't like to ask people as it's somewhat accusatory and intrusive to do so? 

This is a really esoteric subject, but it interests me (the money policy itself, not Jay Peak specifically), because I'm not convinced it's legal to do this.  You're free to accept Indian Rupees or Polish Zlotys as payment if you wish of course, but I don't know if you're allowed to deny payment to one cohort of people while simultaneously accepting it from others.  Might have to contact a friend with BLS with this incredibly dorky question.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> So there it is; thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In most of the third world countries I've been too, foreigners pay a lot more than locals for a whole bunch of services.   What's interesting in this case is that it is the non-residents who get the better deal (from the viewpoints of the residents).  As a Canadian it is still the same price as last year so I don't feel like I'm getting a deal.   I get hit real bad in US condo fees and taxes however.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's definitely their policy:
> http://jaypeakresort.com/about/jay-peaks-exchange-rate-policy/



Huh.  That's relatively new.


----------



## wtcobb (Oct 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is a really esoteric subject, but it interests me (the money policy itself, not Jay Peak specifically), because I'm not convinced it's legal to do this.  You're free to accept Indian Rupees or Polish Zlotys as payment if you wish of course, but I don't know if you're allowed to deny payment to one cohort of people while simultaneously accepting it from others.  Might have to contact a friend with BLS with this incredibly dorky question.



If it's considered a marketing tactic to woo visitors from CA, as they're essentially giving a discount on lodging, I don't see how it would be illegal. There are plenty of offers with the qualification "open to US residents only" - most sweepstakes/shipping offers have this stipulation.

Living in Grafton county I get deals at many mountains ("locals only" deals) or the NH state resident pass to Cannon. Same type of discount, just offered to a different group.


----------



## dlague (Oct 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Was this ever definitively established?
> 
> I've never seen anyone asked.    And is it legal to accept a currency as legal tender from one group of people, but deny it to another?



Canadian guests must provide proof of current residency to pay in Canadian cash.  (From their website)


----------



## dlague (Oct 29, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> So there it is; thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I tried about ten years ago and got denied - wanted ID.  I have not tried recently.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 29, 2015)

You get the same discount if you ski in Canada & exchange your U.S. dollars for Canadian dollars. That $60 lift ticket will only cost you $40. A $100 a night room will only cost you $65. You don't have to be a Canadian citizen to get these discounts. In fact Canadian citizens don't see any discount. So if you feel ripped off by Jay go to Canada.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> There are plenty of offers with the qualification "open to US residents only" - most sweepstakes/shipping offers have this stipulation.



That's a different animal though. 

 This question relates specifically to the legal tender you'll choose to accept, and from whom (i.e. can I accept a currency from one group while denying it to another).   I don't know the answer.  

One might assume Jay Peak has done this research, and it's in fact perfectly legal.  However, in light of recent events, I'm not in the habit of "assuming" anything regarding Jay Peak's business practices. lol.



steamboat1 said:


> You get the same discount if you ski in Canada & exchange your U.S. dollars for Canadian dollars.



Well, that's not remotely what we're talking about at all, but....uh...okay.


----------



## Brewbeer (Oct 29, 2015)

US citizens can choose to pay for their tickets and lodging in CAD, they aren't being restricted to only using USD.  The exchange rate discount only applies to Canadian residents.  Doesn't seem to be materially different than the locals only discounts.


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## DoublePlanker (Oct 29, 2015)

Jay Peak is not the only ski area that does this.  I don't have a problem with it.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2015)

Brewbeer said:


> US citizens can choose to pay for their tickets and lodging in CAD, they aren't being restricted to only using USD.  The exchange rate discount only applies to Canadian residents.



I guess that makes sense as long as your not restricting use, though I doubt this happens in practice (i.e. I doubt Americans show up and pay $91 CAD for a $60 USD lift ticket).


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

How many people are going to go out of the way to CAD to save a couple bucks on a lift ticket? I suspect the number is minimal.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> How many people are going to go out of the way to CAD to save a couple bucks on a lift ticket? I suspect the number is minimal.


I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but if you are asking how many Americans would pay in Canadian to get the at-par deal, I am willing to bet that the number would be very high.  If you are going to Jay Peak, it's not that hard to pop across the border to get cash out of an ATM.  And the local Vermont banks all convert American to Canadian - albeit at a worse rate than an ATM.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

You would be wrong. I unfortunately can't show you proof without getting my better half fired, but the ratio you think exists is actually the opposite.

People are going an hour out of their way to save 20% on a lift ticket. Doubtful. These are skiers, a pretty economically well off group of people as a whole, and probably know a thing or two about the time value of money and opportunity costs. 

I don't disagree in principle its not difficult, but when most folks go skiing, they aren't burning an hour of their weekend doing a currency exchange. 

Look at how many people still pay walk up window rates at any ski resort, despite liftopia, season passes, or any other of the 1000 ski for cheap deals that exist. Us ski message board folks make up a small contingent of ski area customers.

Now if I was a local I'd be all over it, but the average NEK local isn't getting lodging, or buying lift tickets at the window.


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## DoublePlanker (Oct 29, 2015)

Its a PITA to cross the border.  My wife lived in a border town.  Lots of businesses take CAD at par.  She said she would use CAD just to "get rid of it".

I suppose if one regularly crosses the border, one could withdraw CAD for use at ski areas.

But to spontaneously go out of one's way to do that seems unlikely.

Who carries cash these days anyways?


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## DoublePlanker (Oct 29, 2015)

If we are talking beer.... that's another story.  Go to Canada to buy better, cheaper beer.  I did that 2 weeks ago. lol.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

Interesting.  I guess I take things for granted because I am regularly in Canada.  I was there just yesterday for lunch during a 1.5 hour break while on business in Newport.  There is a fantastic little bakery in Stanstead.  

But you also could stop at any bank in northern Vermont to exchange dollars.  That's where I'm surprised that people would not get their Canadian dollars.  

I fully agree that crossing the border is more of a pain that it was pre-9/11.  I have a NEXUS card but the hours during which you can use it are VERY limited where I cross.  3-5 pm going into Canada and not at all returning into the United States.   But it's half the price of Global Entry and you get all of the Global Entry benefits as well as TSA pre-check.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> If we are talking beer.... that's another story.  Go to Canada to buy better, cheaper beer.  I did that 2 weeks ago. lol.



Cheaper beer in Canada?  Was this at the duty free store?


.


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## AdironRider (Oct 29, 2015)

Cheaper based on alcohol by volume. Its like moonshine up there dontcha know.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Cheaper based on alcohol by volume. Its like moonshine up there dontcha know.



Nice!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Look at how many people still pay walk up window rates at any ski resort, despite liftopia, season passes, or any other of the 1000 ski for cheap deals that exist.



Killington says less than 10% of their customers pay the window rate...


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Killington says less than 10% of their customers pay the window rate...



Right.  And I bet that this 10% make up a large portion of their profits.....


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> *How many people are going to go out of the way to CAD to save a couple bucks on a lift ticket?* I suspect the number is minimal.



Many.

We used to do it all the time when we were young and poor living in Burlington.  Lots of people did it.



VTKilarney said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but if you are asking how many Americans would pay in Canadian to get the at-par deal, I am willing to bet that the number would be very high. * If you are going to Jay Peak, it's not that hard to pop across the border to get cash out of an ATM*.  And the local Vermont banks all convert American to Canadian - albeit at a worse rate than an ATM.



Nobody pops across the border, you just want into a bank in n.VT and get Canadian cash.  Or, do as I did and just keep some CAD from the numerous times I was frequently in Montreal.



DoublePlanker said:


> If we are talking beer.... that's another story.  *Go to Canada to buy better, cheaper beer.*  I did that 2 weeks ago. lol.



There's much better beer in America now, this country has had a brewing revolution the last 15 years, and I'd dare say we probably have better beer options than anywhere on the planet at this point.  I still havent even gotten to all the fantastic microbrews and limited output shops I want to try, and hell, even the big boys have some awesome beers now via acquisitions.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 29, 2015)

Just go to Canada & pay on your credit/debit card. You'll beat any exchange rate you'll get at a bank. Need Canadian cash? Take a cash advance on your credit/debit card, you'll beat the bank exchange rate. Sometimes by as much as 10%


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## fbrissette (Oct 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I
> I fully agree that crossing the border is more of a pain that it was pre-9/11.  I have a NEXUS card but the hours during which you can use it are VERY limited where I cross.  3-5 pm going into Canada and not at all returning into the United States.   But it's half the price of Global Entry and you get all of the Global Entry benefits as well as TSA pre-check.



Depends where you cross.  For most major road I agree.  I either cross at Frelisghburg (East Franklin) or the Pinnacle crossing (Richford) and there is no car 90% of the time.   Only twice in 6 years have I seem more than 2 cars in front of me.  Not always convenient depending on where you are going, but a detour through these smaller border crossings is usually worth it, NEXUS or NO-NEXUS.


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## Jully (Oct 31, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nobody pops across the border, you just want into a bank in n.VT and get Canadian cash.  Or, do as I did and just keep some CAD from the numerous times I was frequently in Montreal.



Not sure if the crossings are any different in VT, but in NE Maine kids literally go bowling in Canada on a regular basis in towns like Calais. I agree going to an American bank would be a lot easier though.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> How many people are going to go out of the way to CAD to save a couple bucks on a lift ticket? I suspect the number is minimal.




As BG said, nobody went across the border as it was more of a pain in the ass than it was worth.  You just went down to the local Chittenden bank and exchanged some cash.

Every college student I knew in Burlington would do this to save money while skiing at Jay.  I'm sure the same was true for Johnson and Lyndon State students too. And following college while ski bumming in Stowe we would still take advantage of the deal.


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## dlague (Oct 31, 2015)

I come from a border town in VT and much of my relatives still live up there and crossing really is not that bad.  We go to Sherbrooke and Magog often when we are up there.  

The locals have it even easier!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## AdironRider (Oct 31, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> As BG said, nobody went across the border as it was more of a pain in the ass than it was worth.  You just went down to the local Chittenden bank and exchanged some cash.
> 
> Every college student I knew in Burlington would do this to save money while skiing at Jay.  I'm sure the same was true for Johnson and Lyndon State students too. And following college while ski bumming in Stowe we would still take advantage of the deal.




You guys sure know how to read. 

I already said locals are probably all over it, but something tells me Jay isn't living and dying on some broke college kids getting some loonies. 

For the customer that they make money on, I highly doubt they are going out of their way to a bank to do an exchange, to save 20% on a lift ticket, and even less of a percentage on lodging.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2015)

Did you say it in the text I quoted above?  Don't assume people read every post in a thread.  I did not read your comments on locals.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

Sorry about the bump, and maybe this has already been mentioned. Have any of you ever read Steve Wright's responses to bad TripAdvisor  reviews on Jay Peak Resort. Holly shit, this guy is a legend for calling bullshit!!!!


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## River19 (Dec 11, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Sorry about the bump, and maybe this has already been mentioned. Have any of you ever read Steve Wright's responses to bad TripAdvisor  reviews on Jay Peak Resort. Holly shit, this guy is a legend for calling bullshit!!!!



I nearly cried reading some of those......holy crap that is funny, the hockey kids one is priceless....


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## abc (Dec 11, 2015)

Did anyone watch last night's PBS evening piece on how Jay Peak build much of the new infrastructure using the "investor visa" to raise the capital?


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2015)

River19 said:


> I nearly cried reading some of those......holy crap that is funny, the hockey kids one is priceless....



That hockey parent one is AwesOME. Steve holding back no punches there


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 11, 2015)

abc said:


> Did anyone watch last night's PBS evening piece on how Jay Peak build much of the new infrastructure using the "investor visa" to raise the capital?


From the Burke thread...



mbedle said:


> PBS article.
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/is-this-job-creating-foreign-investment-project-too-good-to-be-true/


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## oldtimer (Dec 11, 2015)

Steve Wright is my hero::
1) the Saratoga hockey reply was priceless.  All to infrequently do those of us in the service industry say what is on our minds.  We all know that team, that parent and the attitude.  Good for Steve, Jay and all those involved.  

2) while I am personally sad his tenure as GM at Burke lasted less than half life of a cold Corona at quitting time, I admire him for takjng a "no thank you" stance when certain irrefutable facts became clear.

3)  I admire his directness about snow and weather conditions-  

thank you Steve




mbedle said:


> Sorry about the bump, and maybe this has already been mentioned. Have any of you ever read Steve Wright's responses to bad TripAdvisor  reviews on Jay Peak Resort. Holly shit, this guy is a legend for calling bullshit!!!!


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## Whiteout (Dec 11, 2015)

pearlybakerbest, Manager at Jay Peak Resort, responded to this review, 3 weeks ago
Thanks for your review and single star, shining like a beacon.

While 99% of our hockey teams, kids and parents are able to play well and get along with others, alas, there are those pesky 1 percenters. In this case, witness the midgets of Saratoga. They took it upon themselves to litter the hallways with de facto picnics, bands of roaming children who were set free on the resort like packs of scattered walkers, who not only harassed other guests but took it upon themselves to remind one scared guest, 'we're hockey kids, we can do what we want.' and, in general, treated the resort and its staff like they could do whatever they wanted, wherever they wanted to do it. In short, we don't roll it out that way up here. We're glad you enjoyed the hockey and, you're right, it is great. And were we in a position to recommend your team as having the ability to comport itself like normal adults, we too would be unable. In short, you won't be welcomed back.

Best personal regards and every luck to whomsoever has their door darkened by y'all next.

Steve Wright
Jay Peak

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser...ak_Resort-Jay_Northeast_Kingdom_Vermont.html#


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## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2015)

Awesome!  I wish more businesses responded in a such ways when the customer is wrong


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2015)

My hat is off to him. It is really nice to see a little bit of push back from companies on bogus bad reviews. Plus, Steve has the magic tongue on responses.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2015)

I worked for Marriott for quite some time.  They were pussies and would never respond like that.  They'd cave and send a gift certificate.  That's probably the number one reason why people go on their social media smear campaigns; to get free stuff.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I worked for Marriott for quite some time.  They were pussies and would never respond like that.  They'd cave and send a gift certificate.  That's probably the number one reason why people go on their social media smear campaigns; to get free stuff.



Don't laugh.  A lot of folks do.  Their negative behavior is being negatively reinforced.


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## WWF-VT (Dec 11, 2015)

Whiteout said:


> pearlybakerbest, Manager at Jay Peak Resort, responded to this review, 3 weeks ago
> Thanks for your review and single star, shining like a beacon.
> 
> While 99% of our hockey teams, kids and parents are able to play well and get along with others, alas, there are those pesky 1 percenters. In this case, witness the midgets of Saratoga. They took it upon themselves to litter the hallways with de facto picnics, bands of roaming children who were set free on the resort like packs of scattered walkers, who not only harassed other guests but took it upon themselves to remind one scared guest, 'we're hockey kids, we can do what we want.' and, in general, treated the resort and its staff like they could do whatever they wanted, wherever they wanted to do it. In short, we don't roll it out that way up here. We're glad you enjoyed the hockey and, you're right, it is great. And were we in a position to recommend your team as having the ability to comport itself like normal adults, we too would be unable. In short, you won't be welcomed back.
> ...



You have to appreciate Steve Wright' s Grateful  Dead link with the "pearlybakerbest" name on TripAdvisor.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2015)

Love it.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I worked for Marriott for quite some time.  They were pussies and would never respond like that.  They'd cave and send a gift certificate.*  That's probably the number one reason why people go on their social media smear campaigns; to get free stuff.*



I think it's probably #2, behind genuine, sincere, annoyance.    

Though I disagree on the rest - snarky replies might seem "cool", I get it, but there are more marketing studies on this than can be contained in a library, and generally speaking, it's not a smart customer strategy.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 11, 2015)

No, free stuff is definitely number one.  I no longer work for Marriott, but now spend two nights a week in their hotels.  Out of the 80+ nights I've stayed in a Marriott since 1/1/15, I've registered a complaint about five times for various reasons; mostly the room not being ready at 4PM when I arrive.  

As a customer it's been a canned response of "sorry, here's 5K Marriott points". As a former manager with the company I was instructed to write/offer those same canned responses.

I suppose I could be a jerk and complain every stay knowing the canned 5k point response, but that's not fair to the business.

Please share the marketing studies proving the snarky response to social media shaming negatively affects someone's business.  I don't believe you. Sounds like an opp ed piece to me.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2015)

It may be the primary reason to complain directly to the hotel, but is it really the primary reason to complain anonymously on Tripadvisor?  That seems much harder to believe.  


.


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## 56fish (Dec 12, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Please share the marketing studies proving the snarky response to social media shaming negatively affects someone's business.  I don't believe you. Sounds like an opp ed piece to me.



+1

Two employees at JPR, both unfamiliar w/ this forum and, each other confirmed the absolutely terrible behavior of the guests previously discussed.  The customer is most _definitely not_​ always right.  Some have absolutely no class or character - their thoughts are generally dismissed by most.  Their opinions carry very little weight.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 13, 2015)

56fish said:


> *The customer is most definitely not​ always right.  Some have absolutely no class or character - their thoughts are generally dismissed by most. *



Everything you said is correct.  

But the customer should still be treated (if at all possible and assuming it's not a really exceptional case) as if they ARE correct, even if they are not correct.  Acquiring customers is extremely expensive, and false witness while always unfair is incredibly damaging.

  Which is why, while DHS thinks Marriott International are morons, they're actually smart.  They apparently employ the "bite your tongue" philosophy.  There's a reason some companies go bankrupt, while others become ~$20 Billion dollar multi-national publicly traded conglomerates.    I get why they hand out those points like candy, even when they know it's 100% BS.

 And I'm not sure how this is shaking out in the new world of "instantaneous reviews and feedback" but I imagine it might be getting even worse. Unfair Yelp reviews, for instance, has been cited for unfairly causing major harm to  businesses, and lawsuits are growing common.  There have even been (non-inexpensive) lawsuits!  I'd be fibbing if I said my $$ decision hasnt been swayed a few times by some negative reviews, be it a service role, a restaurant, or other, etc...


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## Smellytele (Dec 13, 2015)

Thinking about this from other customer's prospectives, if I was there and had to experience other customer behaving this way and management doing nothing about I would pissed even more. 
Other have said negative reviews sway where they spend their money. While I agree I take some of the negative reviews as crying spoiled brats. I tend to take the ones about the product a little more serious then about the service and "rudeness" of the staff.


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## Whiteout (Dec 13, 2015)

If I go to Jay, it's not to be in the hotel. I'd be out in the woods anyway.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 13, 2015)

Whiteout said:


> *If I go to Jay, it's not to be in the hotel. I'd be out in the woods anyway.*



I think almost everyone on this board would agree.   I'm just getting a little nervous as to when that might be in 2016.


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## jaybird (Dec 13, 2015)

Hockey Families don't surprise anyone.
Steve Wright did the Right thing !


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## darent (Dec 13, 2015)

I have a friend whose ex wife made a hobby of complaining to get free stuff, from sending back diners to crabbing about hotel stays, was really embarrassing to be around.she managed to get a free midweek stay at a Vermont ski area because she wrote a scathing critic of its operations.


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## mriceyman (Dec 14, 2015)

darent said:


> I have a friend whose ex wife made a hobby of complaining to get free stuff, from sending back diners to crabbing about hotel stays, was really embarrassing to be around.she managed to get a free midweek stay at a Vermont ski area because she wrote a scathing critic of its operations.



And im sure she took the free week. Im not sure why if it was so terrible. Hell i get mad at my wife for complaining even tho sometimes she has every right to be upset 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## 56fish (Dec 14, 2015)

Not to keep this off topic but.....sorry



Smellytele said:


> Thinking about this from other customer's prospectives, if I was there and had to experience other customer behaving this way and management doing nothing about I would pissed even more.



That's what started the conversation I had w/ JPR staff - other guests couldn't believe the behavior wasn't addressed.


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## River19 (Dec 14, 2015)

56fish said:


> Not to keep this off topic but.....sorry
> 
> 
> 
> That's what started the conversation I had w/ JPR staff - other guests couldn't believe the behavior wasn't addressed.



That is one of those situations where you may lose one customer by directly addressing their bad behavior but if you look the other way, the 15 other paying customers that were impacted could be lost instead due to lack of response by management to poor behavior.


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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 14, 2015)

River19 said:


> That is one of those situations where you may lose one customer by directly addressing their bad behavior but if you look the other way, the 15 other paying customers that were impacted could be lost instead due to lack of response by management to poor behavior.



I'm not a hockey person but to be fair there is some pretty rotten behavior/attitudes by skiers as well.

Trail conditions were pretty scary, Jet was beyond skied off. Someone said the winch cat was not functioning properly and the upper section was not groomed.  I know it was down for part of last season.

While a lot of us are crabby at the slow start, there are a bunch of folks around Jay and elsewhere that were looking for a bump in the paycheck from the season starting up in earnest.  Especially the young paycheck-paycheck kids.  empty bars restaurants and  stores are not good for anybody.  I hope it picks up soon.

Seasons greetings, health and happiness to all!


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## VTKilarney (Dec 14, 2015)

As far as I am aware, very profitable companies that know a LOT about customer service definitely don't follow this policy.  Having said that, I can appreciate the frustration with an online world that makes it super easy to complain about every little thing and broadcast that to the world.  But everyone is competing in this landscape.  

The risk I see is that these responses arguably make it look like Jay Peak has a snarky retort to any complaint whatsoever.  As a potential customer, that's definitely not what I want to see.  I'm okay with being snarky to a jerk, but some customers are going to have legitimate complaints.  It's those legitimate complaints that I want to know are being addressed.  

For example, there is definitely a theme in the reviews that hockey families are out of control.  Yet, other than claiming to ban a specific team, I don't see any real attempt at curbing the unruly behavior.  That would make me think twice about staying at Jay as compared to another ski resort.

Once, when staying at the Double Tree in South Portland, Maine, I struck up a conversation with the executive lounge attendant.  She disclosed to me that hockey families are by far the worst guests.  The parents are just as bad as the kids, just with a much higher bar tab.  So this phenomenon does not appear to be unique to Jay Peak.


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## Smellytele (Dec 14, 2015)

jaybird said:


> Hockey Families don't surprise anyone.



Like saying ski racing families. Very narrow minded.


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## dlague (Dec 14, 2015)

jaybird said:


> Hockey Families don't surprise anyone.
> Steve Wright did the Right thing !





Smellytele said:


> Like saying ski racing families. Very narrow minded.




Ski race families are not any better!  We had the unfortunate experience of staying at Sugarbush Inn on weekend of a big race event and the kids took over the place the chaperons lost control!  I saw things I did not need to see!  Any event that invites large numbers of teenagers and even younger kids is going to be faced with chaos!  It sucks for those who were not expecting it!  Lucky for me it was a comp!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 14, 2015)

dlague said:


> *Any event that invites large numbers of teenagers and even younger kids is going to be faced with chaos!*



I definitely don't agree with that.  I'm on-board with the view that it usually comes down to the parent's accountability (or lack thereof).


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## dlague (Dec 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I definitely don't agree with that.  I'm on-board with the view that it usually comes down to the parent's accountability (or lack thereof).



I am sure you have skied on days where ski races are being held - it is always a mad house.  Parents are skiing on their own or in the lodge.  Same applies to where they are staying.  I will give you that some parents are responsible but more are not!


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## steamboat1 (Dec 14, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I definitely don't agree with that.  I'm on-board with the view that it usually comes down to the parent's accountability (or lack thereof).





dlague said:


> I am sure you have skied on days where ski races are being held - it is always a mad house.  Parents are skiing on their own or in the lodge.  Same applies to where they are staying.  I will give you that some parents are responsible but more are not!




Sounds like you agree with BG.


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## dlague (Dec 14, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Sounds like you agree with BG.



Maybe for the 5 or 10 % of the parents who care.  Otherwise no!


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## dlague (Jun 8, 2016)

Seems like this thread continued in the Burke thread!


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## dlague (Dec 9, 2016)

A new bombshell of sorts:

In an attempt to try and manage what are understandably high expectations, this is what we have for you this weekend with respect to snow/lifts trails.  Snow:  A lot of it (I shoveled it all day, I know), 16-18” in the past 24 hours, still bombing now and  50”+ this week.  Lifts:  Our Tram is getting some repair work on its cable and, as such, will not roll this week.  We’re still expecting it the week of December 19th.  As a result of repair work on the Tram cable, we can’t run the Bonnie, although we do plan to have it sometime next week along with the Flyer that is scheduled to be inspected then as well.  We’ll have the Jet accessing everything we have on Stateside along with the Taxi and moving carpet.  We wish we had more uphill capacity for this weekend but what you find here, you’re going to enjoy. For another piece of perspective, this time last year we had one lift and one run with what snow we could scrape together. To say the least, we are extremely grateful for this strong start to the season, and we look forward to seeing Passholders at our Passholder appreciation party tomorrow; 4p in the IR.  Travel safely all.

Sincerely,
Steve Wright | GM

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## bdfreetuna (Dec 9, 2016)

oh well, I'm not in 3+ hour drive mode quite yet anyway


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## Edd (Dec 9, 2016)

I'm not understanding why they can't run the Bonnie if they're working on the Tram cable.


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## snoseek (Dec 9, 2016)

Edd said:


> I'm not understanding why they can't run the Bonnie if they're working on the Tram cable.



I'm thinking they weren't planning on all this snow and are understaffed but who knows


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## 4aprice (Dec 10, 2016)

Edd said:


> I'm not understanding why they can't run the Bonnie if they're working on the Tram cable.



Must be for safety reasons.  Snowbird had to shut down Peruvian last spring to re cable their tram.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2016)

Here's a trailer for a show that talks about the Jay Peak EB-5 scandal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ygVMuFhp0

Unfortunately, it looks like the show is behind a paywall:
https://www.crtv.com/video/The+Dark...575947001&talent=Michelle Malkin Investigates


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2016)

4aprice said:


> Must be for safety reasons.  Snowbird had to shut down Peruvian last spring to re cable their tram.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



+ 1.  IIRC the Tram goes right over Bonnie unload. 


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## Edd (Dec 10, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1.  IIRC the Tram goes right over Bonnie unload.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Ah, that makes sense.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2016)

I don't think this has been posted: http://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine...ll:trending&s_campaign=bdc:globewell:trending


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2016)

> Goldberg has been trying to show that the EB-5 conditions have been met. He argues that at least 10 jobs have been created for each investment in the various Jay Peak developments, even if the specific part of the project investors bought into hasn’t come to fruition, because indirect jobs have been created, too. “It’s not just the bellhop at the hotel or the housekeeper who cleans the rooms or the shuttle driver and the construction jobs,” he says. *“When you walk into a [hotel] room, there are also bedspreads and curtains and alarm clocks that were made.”*



In Vietnam and China.

Kind of a worrying quote, as it suggests he doesn't seem to understand how the EB-5 program works.  Well highlights the complete and bogus fraud of "indirect jobs" that I've been speaking about for years though.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2016)

I'm still worried Ariel Quiros is a flight risk.  

The guy is a global traveler with multi-national connections who I strongly suspect has hidden illegal money in tough to find places, and 100% knows he's going to be found guilty in a court of law.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 12, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> In Vietnam and China.
> 
> Kind of a worrying quote, as it suggests he doesn't seem to understand how the EB-5 program works.  Well highlights the complete and bogus fraud of "indirect jobs" that I've been speaking about for years though.



That quote you posted is quite ridiculous and insane.  Just because you purchase a cheapo bedsheet or alarm clock, doesn't mean you are creating jobs.  Those items are being made either way.

Maybe we can all get special EB-5 funding to go out and purchase new automobiles since people had to be employed to build those cars.  Haha, friggin' insane!


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2016)

last friday i saw jay tix on liftopia were $47 for this coming saturday. a buddy and me were debating sugarbush v. jay, and when i saw the price i said 'let's just do it'. an hour later they post that post about the flyer and tram. ugh. the upside is that if they get their act together and the flyer goes up on saturday morning, it could be absolutely epic to have the first tramside lift access. the downside is (obviously) that i may be driving 6 hours to ski the damn jet all day. if that happens, i am buying skins and putting my touring bindings to real use for the first time, and i'll also probably ski the dip for the first time at least once. hoping for the flyer, but ready to make lemonade.

got a cheap hotel in stowe saturday night and will end up at sugarbush, pico, or k on sunday so long as the weather holds.


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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 12, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> last friday i saw jay tix on liftopia were $47 for this coming saturday. a buddy and me were debating sugarbush v. jay, and when i saw the price i said 'let's just do it'. an hour later they post that post about the flyer and tram. ugh. the upside is that if they get their act together and the flyer goes up on saturday morning, it could be absolutely epic to have the first tramside lift access. the downside is (obviously) that i may be driving 6 hours to ski the damn jet all day. if that happens, i am buying skins and putting my touring bindings to real use for the first time, and i'll also probably ski the dip for the first time at least once. hoping for the flyer, but ready to make lemonade.
> 
> got a cheap hotel in stowe saturday night and will end up at sugarbush, pico, or k on sunday so long as the weather holds.



Hope you had fun at Jay, last few days have been amazing regardless of uphill capacity.
Please come back, stay longer and drop some coin at the local stores, shops, restaurants.

TY


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Hope you had fun at Jay, last few days have been amazing regardless of uphill capacity.
> Please come back, stay longer and drop some coin at the local stores, shops, restaurants.
> 
> TY



Going this weekend. I bought a ticket for this coming Saturday, last friday, to lock in the $47 price ($42 with a credit). Now praying for the flyer


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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 12, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Going this weekend. I bought a ticket for this coming Saturday, last friday, to lock in the $47 price ($42 with a credit). Now praying for the flyer



Sorry, I missed the timing of your trip.
I heard flyer will be up by end of the week Thursday-Friday. they have totally bombed the tramside with snow making and were starting to slay whales today when i rolled through the base. Your timing will be good, more snow forecasted  and cold dress warm.
I did a skin up northway this pm and found clean lines and some waist deep pow  going down to tramside base.
Have fun


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## Zermatt (Dec 15, 2016)

What's the tram status?  Is it going to open this weekend and during a big early snow year would it normally be open this weekend?

I understand that while they are fixing it the quad should be closed, but if its not being worked on what is the risk to the quad? Also, there is a really easy fix for this problem...run the tram all year.  Even if just a few times a day when they know it is icing to prevent and large build ups.

I'm guessing the only people that know how to fix it have to be flown in from Europe.


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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 15, 2016)

billo said:


> What's the tram status?  Is it going to open this weekend and during a big early snow year would it normally be open this weekend?
> 
> I understand that while they are fixing it the quad should be closed, but if its not being worked on what is the risk to the quad? Also, there is a really easy fix for this problem...run the tram all year.  Even if just a few times a day when they know it is icing to prevent and large build ups.
> 
> I'm guessing the only people that know how to fix it have to be flown in from Europe.



I have not heard anything on the tram as far as a run start.
Tram folks are onsite working on it, I would not count on it this weekend  IMO.
I heard sat is now flyer start time.
It just keeps on snowing, another half foot solid last night and very light.
its like mid Feb here on a good snow year, no BS.
tramside is all filled in with clean lines  short hikes-skins are worth it

Have fun and drive safely


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 15, 2016)

It seems puzzling that while most northern areas are running at almost 100% open,Jay has less than 50% while getting about as much snow as the rest of the NVT areas.


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## Zermatt (Dec 15, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> It seems puzzling that while most northern areas are running at almost 100% open,Jay has less than 50% while getting about as much snow as the rest of the NVT areas.



They have been getting at least as much snow as the other northern areas (but not as much as they say they have been).  But that is par for the course.

Without a tram and other key lifts you can't open more terrain, you can't get to it.

Even so, they should have more open.  With 100"+ of natural snow that is more than enough to open the entire mountain.  Places out west with large rock fields are usually well covered after 100" has fallen.  Eastern areas need much less.


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## Smellytele (Dec 15, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> It seems puzzling that while most northern areas are running at almost 100% open,Jay has less than 50% while getting about as much snow as the rest of the NVT areas.



Smuggs is only Sterling right now so they are behind as well


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## dlague (Dec 15, 2016)

I am not seeing anything open 100%  Stowe is at 75% and there are reports that some will open more terrain on Friday.


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## benski (Dec 15, 2016)

100" in the east includes wha melted. In Binghamton we have had about 3 feet of snow so far and there is still exposed grass. Sugarbush sounds really confident they will be 100% this weekend. On Skimrv win has not chimed in but the prevailing theory is Opening gate house with just natural trails is a bad idea due to it being largely beginner terrain. I also an express quad servicing 3 natural snow trails might not be a good idea.


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## fbrissette (Dec 15, 2016)

billo said:


> They have been getting at least as much snow as the other northern areas (but not as much as they say they have been).  But that is par for the course.
> 
> Without a tram and other key lifts you can't open more terrain, you can't get to it.
> 
> Even so, they should have more open.  With 100"+ of natural snow that is more than enough to open the entire mountain.  Places out west with large rock fields are usually well covered after 100" has fallen.  Eastern areas need much less.



I have skinned up and skied most areas at Jay the past 2 weekends.  I haven't skied face chute but otherwise it is definitely 100% skiable.   The dip has been skied regularly already.  There is four feet (a full ski pole) on the ground in Beaver.


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## fbrissette (Dec 15, 2016)

That was my balcony last Friday.   Some of the stuff is windblown, but this is the most rapidly accumulated snow in my seven years there.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2016)

starting to feel nervous about the flyer. they seemed to have dialed back the optimism on the saturday estimate.


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 15, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> starting to feel nervous about the flyer. they seemed to have dialed back the optimism on the saturday estimate.



And this is my point.Why isnt the Flyer running?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2016)

in response to someone's comment on their facebook pic post from about an hour ago, jay said that the flyer will be running saturday. no maybe. no hedging. so i'm now more optimistic than nervous.


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## LONGBOARDR (Dec 15, 2016)

KustyTheKlown said:


> in response to someone's comment on their facebook pic post from about an hour ago, jay said that the flyer will be running saturday. no maybe. no hedging. so i'm now more optimistic than nervous.



get there early, you won't regret it
Today was amazing both lift served and skinned terrain


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2016)

yep. plan is to leave work ASAP tomorrow, scoop buddy, drive to buddy's mom's house in plattsburgh, leave platts by 5:30/6 to hit jay by 8


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 15, 2016)

dlague said:


> View attachment 21234



This off topic, but where is Burke on that list? :???:


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 16, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> This off topic, but where is Burke on that list? :???:



In between Cochran's and Suicide Six ;-)


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## dlague (Dec 16, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> This off topic, but where is Burke on that list? :???:


I was a screen capture and could not fit the whole list but you can visit www.skicentral.com

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 19, 2016)

Again,weird.Never heard this one before.

"The Flyer will be closed today due to snowmaking at higher elevations"


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 19, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Again,weird.*Never heard this one before.*
> 
> "The Flyer will be closed today due to snowmaking at higher elevations"




Since when do they care?    Especially on a random early season Monday?


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## Jcb890 (Dec 19, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Again,weird.Never heard this one before.
> 
> "The Flyer will be closed today due to snowmaking at higher elevations"





BenedictGomez said:


> Since when do they care?    Especially on a random early season Monday?



A very strange reason, but like BG said, with it being an early season Monday they are probably putting a little less effort into getting all of the lifts up and running.  That is certainly a disappointing response though.

I think I'll be heading up to Jay Tuesday night to ride Wednesday and Thursday... it seems like they should be getting a little more snow around that time.  I sent them an FB message and they said The Flyer should be open tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest, but that the Tram would not be open.  They are hoping for next week with the Tram.


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## Zermatt (Dec 21, 2016)

It's Wednesday...any updates on the Tram?  Last I heard was this week, but its been a few days since they have said anything.


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## Steve@jpr (Dec 21, 2016)

*Sound/Fury*

Greetings all--A few operational updates--Flyer is running this am.  We didn't run it Monday/Tuesday because of the amount of snowmaking along Goat (it needed it desperately).  We almost never run The Flyer when we're making snow in that section but we generally can accomplish what we need to in 24 hours.  Took us 48 to put it back together after last Sunday's rain/mix.  We've moved snowmaking to the Northway and we're going to stay on for plus/minus 96 hours or until temps knock us. It needs 4 days and until that's finished, no Bonnie.  Right now it's looking like we'll get the Bonnie either Christmas Day or the 26th.  It's my expectation that the Tram will open for the season this Saturday the 24th.  Apply standard disclaimers.  Apologies if you end up asking follow up questions and I miss them as I'm not here often.  Hit me at swright@jaypeakresort.com and I'm happy to tell you what I know.

Hope you all have a good holiday.

steve




billo said:


> It's Wednesday...any updates on the Tram?  Last I heard was this week, but its been a few days since they have said anything.


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## dlague (Dec 21, 2016)

Steve@jpr said:


> Greetings all--A few operational updates--Flyer is running this am.  We didn't run it Monday/Tuesday because of the amount of snowmaking along Goat (it needed it desperately).  We almost never run The Flyer when we're making snow in that section but we generally can accomplish what we need to in 24 hours.  Took us 48 to put it back together after last Sunday's rain/mix.  We've moved snowmaking to the Northway and we're going to stay on for plus/minus 96 hours or until temps knock us. It needs 4 days and until that's finished, no Bonnie.  Right now it's looking like we'll get the Bonnie either Christmas Day or the 26th.  It's my expectation that the Tram will open for the season this Saturday the 24th.  Apply standard disclaimers.  Apologies if you end up asking follow up questions and I miss them as I'm not here often.  Hit me at swright@jaypeakresort.com and I'm happy to tell you what I know.
> 
> Hope you all have a good holiday.
> 
> steve


Goat always seems to be problematic due to early season refreezing and wind.  The quick turn after the flat catches people off guard all the time and as a result gets very scrapped off.  Good luck with that.  

Sounds like a bit of a rough start but it appears as though next week JP will be in the clear and smooth sailing hopefully.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## fbrissette (Dec 21, 2016)

dlague said:


> Goat always seems to be problematic due to early season refreezing and wind.  The quick turn after the flat catches people off guard all the time and as a result gets very scrapped off.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Sounds like a bit of a rough start but it appears as though next week JP will be in the clear and smooth sailing hopefully.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



The goat is a trap for beginners and intermediate skiers.  Never ski the goat. There is no good reason to ski that icy stretch unless there is no other way (e.g. very early or late in the season).

As to the rough start, I beg to disagree.   Till Sunday, December has had some of the best skiing ever at Jay.   And with the Bonnie, Freezer and Tram not operating, there was endless powder to be had if you were willing to earn your turns.


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## MG Skier (Dec 21, 2016)

dlague said:


> Goat always seems to be problematic due to early season refreezing and wind.  The quick turn after the flat catches people off guard all the time and as a result gets very scrapped off.  Good luck with that.
> 
> Sounds like a bit of a rough start but it appears as though next week JP will be in the clear and smooth sailing hopefully.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



If you have ever hiked up Goat, it is quite steep and very open to the wind. I always try to ski it early in the day or spring only. Tough area to blow snow on I imagine!!!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 21, 2016)

fbrissette said:


> The goat is a trap for beginners and intermediate skiers.  Never ski the goat. There is no good reason to ski that icy stretch unless there is no other way (e.g. very early or late in the season).



Other than poor condition days, Canuck school break is the only time I've specifically avoided it.  It's like the poor skier equivalent of Los Angeles traffic.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> If you have ever hiked up Goat, it is quite steep and very open to the wind. I always try to ski it early in the day or spring only. Tough area to blow snow on I imagine!!!



Hate the Goat.


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## MG Skier (Dec 21, 2016)

The Intersection with Lower Can Am/Taxi can be dicey too! In all my trips to Jay last year I don't think I took the Flyer once!


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> The Intersection with Lower Can Am/Taxi can be dicey too! In all my trips to Jay last year I don't think I took the Flyer once!



Vermonter!


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## dlague (Dec 21, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Other than poor condition days, Canuck school break is the only time I've specifically avoided it.  It's like the poor skier equivalent of Los Angeles traffic.


 


MG Skier said:


> The Intersection with Lower Can Am/Taxi can be dicey too! In all my trips to Jay last year I don't think I took the Flyer once!





Smellytele said:


> Vermonter!


All three are traps for intermediates.  Vermonter is narrower and on high traffic days with lots of fresh it gets bumped up a bit and total chaos ensues.  I very rarely ski from the Tram, when I do the. A couple runs to hit Valhalla or Green Beret.

Taxi is terrible because people are afraid to let it go down Angles Wiggle then many snowplow their way through there and around the end around CanAm people stop for some reason like they are lost.

Goat as mentioned earlier, can get busy and then at the first turn which is almost always icy people become panic struck bowling balls and the next turn is often bumped up throwing people everywhere. 

The last two are trails I avoid.  Those are the two main trails to get from Stateside (Bonnie).  I would rather ski to Stateside base and then take the Taxi Quad to get back to Tram Side.

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## BenedictGomez (Dec 21, 2016)

MG Skier said:


> The Intersection with Lower Can Am/Taxi can be dicey too! *In all my trips to Jay last year I don't think I took the Flyer once!*



Never took the Flyer?   I use the Flyer more than any other lift.   

It's the Tram I can literally go days-and-days at Jay without using.


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## Smellytele (Dec 21, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never took the Flyer?   I use the Flyer more than any other lift.
> 
> It's the Tram I can literally go days-and-days at Jay without using.



+1


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## dlague (Dec 21, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never took the Flyer?   I use the Flyer more than any other lift.
> 
> It's the Tram I can literally go days-and-days at Jay without using.


+1

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## MG Skier (Dec 22, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never took the Flyer?   I use the Flyer more than any other lift.
> 
> It's the Tram I can literally go days-and-days at Jay without using.



Maybe I should be more specific.....The Flyer wasnt running ....Wind, Wind, Lift wasn't running, midweek, again no one on the mountain not running, then in the spring it wasn't running (At least the days I was there).

It has been a season or two since I was last in Andres. Couldn't get up there this month. I heard it was outrageous!!!


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## Edd (Dec 22, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never took the Flyer?   I use the Flyer more than any other lift.
> 
> It's the Tram I can literally go days-and-days at Jay without using.



+1 also. With respect to Jay, the current lift situation is an undeniable shitshow.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2016)

Edd said:


> +1 also. With respect to Jay, the current lift situation is an undeniable shitshow.



Out of curiosity, why do you say that?


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## Edd (Dec 22, 2016)

Tram and Bonnie are down, correct?


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## tumbler (Dec 22, 2016)

The new Sugarbush :razz:


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## Tin (Dec 22, 2016)

Edd said:


> +1 also. With respect to Jay, the current lift situation is an undeniable shitshow.





It's always a shit show. "Only sold 70 tickets today, shut down the upper mountain lifts due to _________". Any midweek day you decide to drive up it is a gamble. The fact that ski patrol and other staff openly talk about their little policy amazes me.

When you consider yourself a resort and don't get your main/only HSQ inspected until mid December, the same week as places like Magic, there is an issue.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2016)

Edd said:


> Tram and Bonnie are down, correct?



Really?  Yikes.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2016)

Tin said:


> It's always a shit show. "Only sold 70 tickets today, shut down the upper mountain lifts due to _________". Any midweek day you decide to drive up it is a gamble. The fact that ski patrol and other staff openly talk about there little policy amazes me.
> 
> When you consider yourself a resort and don't get your main/only HSQ inspected until mid December, the same week as places like Magic, there is an issue.



Two things: first, I always suspected that Jay and another 'Central Vermont Resort' had "moneyholds" for their lifts.  Jay more so than others.  They rarely get called out for it though.  

Second, as to the HSQ inspection, I'd imagine that this year is a rare exception because of the Q Shit Show and a receiver from Florida trying to run it as best as he can.  So I give them a pass this year.  

FWIW Burke is operating pretty nicely....not too many issues there.  Snowmaking and lifts are going pretty nicely.  Hearing good reviews of the Hotel.


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## Tin (Dec 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Second, as to the HSQ inspection, I'd imagine that this year is a rare exception because of the Q Shit Show and a receiver from Florida trying to run it as best as he can.  So I give them a pass this year.
> 
> FWIW Burke is operating pretty nicely....not too many issues there.  Snowmaking and lifts are going pretty nicely.  Hearing good reviews of the Hotel.





Can definitely concede on that point about the Flyer. 

Very very happy to see Burke and the community recovering well and grabbing the ski team venue spot.


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## benski (Dec 22, 2016)

Does the receiver have any background in skiing? I assume he at least skis but unless he is originally from the Northeast I doubt he has skied on the East Coast.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2016)

Tin said:


> Can definitely concede on that point about the Flyer.
> 
> Very very happy to see Burke and the community recovering well and grabbing the ski team venue spot.



Yes, it is surprising though that the situation with the lifts at Jay are so messed up.  Can someone on the ground confirm if JPR had been skimping on lift maintenance over the last few years?  The Tram excepted.  It seems like they were ignoring the needs of that lift and pushing off major upgrades that are now needed.  

Lift maintenance is so boring compared to Land Rovers and Condos in NYC.


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## dlague (Dec 22, 2016)

dlague said:


> A new bombshell of sorts:
> 
> In an attempt to try and manage what are understandably high expectations, this is what we have for you this weekend with respect to snow/lifts trails.  Snow:  A lot of it (I shoveled it all day, I know), 16-18” in the past 24 hours, still bombing now and  50”+ this week.  Lifts:  Our Tram is getting some repair work on its cable and, as such, will not roll this week.  We’re still expecting it the week of December 19th.  As a result of repair work on the Tram cable, we can’t run the Bonnie, although we do plan to have it sometime next week along with the Flyer that is scheduled to be inspected then as well.  We’ll have the Jet accessing everything we have on Stateside along with the Taxi and moving carpet.  We wish we had more uphill capacity for this weekend but what you find here, you’re going to enjoy. For another piece of perspective, this time last year we had one lift and one run with what snow we could scrape together. To say the least, we are extremely grateful for this strong start to the season, and we look forward to seeing Passholders at our Passholder appreciation party tomorrow; 4p in the IR.  Travel safely all.
> 
> ...



Posted in this thread on Dec 9th and discussed repeatedly since!



thetrailboss said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you say that?



Apparently you have been out of the loop.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2016)

dlague said:


> Posted in this thread on Dec 9th and discussed repeatedly since!
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you have been out of the loop.



Right.  I figured he was talking about general lift issues and not the last few weeks.


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## dlague (Dec 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  I figured he was talking about general lift issues and not the last few weeks.


Well the Tram apparently was not totally legal last season.  I also do think Jay uses the weather to shut down lifts to cut costs on low visitor days.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW Burke is operating pretty nicely....not too many issues there.  Snowmaking and lifts are going pretty nicely.  Hearing good reviews of the Hotel.


You jinxed us.  There was an article in today's paper saying that Burke can't pay its electric bill arrears with the Citibank funds.  Apparently the funds are spread too thin as it is.  They are offering to pay $40,000 out of the $400,000 that is owed.  They missed a $100,000 payment in November.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 22, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> You jinxed us.  There was an article in today's paper saying that Burke can't pay its electric bill arrears with the Citibank funds.  Apparently the funds are spread too thin as it is.  They are offering to pay $40,000 out of the $400,000 that is owed.  They missed a $100,000 payment in November.



Yeah the lifts and snowmaking work great but that power bill is an issue.  

Damn that sucks.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Jcb890 (Dec 23, 2016)

I was up at Jay Peak the past 2 days with friends.  Wednesday was half-way decent and the snow was soft enough to push around, so it was fun.  Not much open, groomed out or ready even though they had claimed to be done with snow making with what would seem to be enough time to open things up.  Yesterday everyone won with a good 5+ inches and 6-8 in some spots.  It was fantastic.

That being said... yesterday the Flyer was delayed and didn't open until around 11.  It ran smoothly the day before, so why the delay?  Throughout the day Wednesday I saw 1 groomer working around The Flyer's trails.  I've seen Wachusett work harder to groom their terrain than this.  I'm sure part of this is they just didn't really care with Christmas weekend coming up, they just wanted to be ready for the weekend.  I've seen them do similar things before with what seem like odd weather hold-ups/closings of lifts and then I have also seen them put in what seems like more effort in the Spring of all times to put in effort.  Their terrain is really nice, the mountain is nice, everyone I've met that works there seems very nice.  I don't get it.


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## Steve@jpr (Dec 23, 2016)

JCB--issue with the Flyer yesterday was a pulley/belt mashup that we needed to replace--we got things going by 11 (10:39a load), but the problem didn't present itself the day prior.  The 1 groomer you saw working-around was likely starting to put the Northway together?  We generally don't groom terrain during the day so it's unlikely you'd see anything anyway.  We groomed everything we could the night before.  I thought things skied out pretty well.  I know that there are some convinced of nefariousness but believe me, saving $200 in labor to not run the Tram, say, is not worth the $20k in lift tickets that doesn't show up as a result of the lift not moving.  Plenty goes into the decisions to run lifts/not run lifts and I've never been in one, zero, where saving labor dollars was ever a factor.  Some on the board claimed they've talked to lifties, Patrol, Snowsports who claim we shudder lifts to save fuel/payroll.  I'm sure you understand howq rumors start and then, eventually, are perpetuated.  All I can say is it hasn't happened here, and it won't--there's just not enough upside to ever justify it.

Looks like Tram for Sunday now.

steve



Jcb890 said:


> I was up at Jay Peak the past 2 days with friends.  Wednesday was half-way decent and the snow was soft enough to push around, so it was fun.  Not much open, groomed out or ready even though they had claimed to be done with snow making with what would seem to be enough time to open things up.  Yesterday everyone won with a good 5+ inches and 6-8 in some spots.  It was fantastic.
> 
> That being said... yesterday the Flyer was delayed and didn't open until around 11.  It ran smoothly the day before, so why the delay?  Throughout the day Wednesday I saw 1 groomer working around The Flyer's trails.  I've seen Wachusett work harder to groom their terrain than this.  I'm sure part of this is they just didn't really care with Christmas weekend coming up, they just wanted to be ready for the weekend.  I've seen them do similar things before with what seem like odd weather hold-ups/closings of lifts and then I have also seen them put in what seems like more effort in the Spring of all times to put in effort.  Their terrain is really nice, the mountain is nice, everyone I've met that works there seems very nice.  I don't get it.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 24, 2016)

Steve, you guys are in a tough spot - with the legal troubles surrounding Jay and Burke, everything that happens is going to invoke an "uh-oh!  They are broke!" reaction, so it's good of you to discuss this issues head on and personally.  

Best of luck with the season and the legal challenges - I sure do hope you guys - professionally, and personally - come out of this A-OK.

Hope to get at least a day in at Jay sometime in Jan-Feb, so see you soon!


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## 56fish (Dec 24, 2016)

Again, SW candor - I like it!:beer:


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## Jcb890 (Dec 24, 2016)

Steve@jpr said:


> JCB--issue with the Flyer yesterday was a pulley/belt mashup that we needed to replace--we got things going by 11 (10:39a load), but the problem didn't present itself the day prior.  The 1 groomer you saw working-around was likely starting to put the Northway together?  We generally don't groom terrain during the day so it's unlikely you'd see anything anyway.  We groomed everything we could the night before.  I thought things skied out pretty well.  I know that there are some convinced of nefariousness but believe me, saving $200 in labor to not run the Tram, say, is not worth the $20k in lift tickets that doesn't show up as a result of the lift not moving.  Plenty goes into the decisions to run lifts/not run lifts and I've never been in one, zero, where saving labor dollars was ever a factor.  Some on the board claimed they've talked to lifties, Patrol, Snowsports who claim we shudder lifts to save fuel/payroll.  I'm sure you understand howq rumors start and then, eventually, are perpetuated.  All I can say is it hasn't happened here, and it won't--there's just not enough upside to ever justify it.
> 
> Looks like Tram for Sunday now.
> 
> steve



Hi Steve - I appreciate you coming on here and replying to posts.  It just seemed like more terrain could have been open and there was not a push to open new terrain.  Wasn't the Tram supposed to be done last Saturday?  Then it was supposed to be done this Saturday.  Now its Sunday.


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## Zermatt (Dec 25, 2016)

Merry Christmas, the tram is still closed.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 25, 2016)

Passed inspection...


https://vtdigger.org/2016/12/23/jay...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-9c407d609f-405602665


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 25, 2016)

Tram listed on Windhold. Bonnie expected for Tuesday according to their FB post.


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## yeggous (Dec 25, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Tram listed on Windhold. Bonnie expected for Tuesday according to their FB post.



Sounds reasonable. A lot of lifts are on wind hold today.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 25, 2016)

Listed open now.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Dec 25, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Listed open now.



Hi All,

Merry Christmas,

I've read a few of the recent posts regarding purported shortcomings here at Jay.
After counting to ten and biting my tongue here it is:
If you can't find find nirvana under the current conditions here for the last 2 weeks without all of Jay's lifts running, there is a problem and it is not the resort's.
You are simply not homing in on the right terrain.
I want you folks to come here and enjoy so my friends, neighbors and community have a sustainable employer and I have a place to ski. I'm not an employee  of Jay.
That being said, go to the Jay ski school, request  Dana or Spoon for ski, Dean for riders and go learn the mountain. cheap investment for a happy future at Jay, you won't be disappointed. 

Send me a pm if you want, everyone at the resort and town wants you to maximize your fun here.
We are here for you and because of you.
And please please buy stuff in  Jay, Troy and Montgomery,  syrup, bacon whatever it really helps, TY!!
Happy new year and let's keep this winter going.


----------



## dlague (Dec 25, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Merry Christmas,
> 
> ...


I get it since I learned to ski there and it was my home mountain for many years.  In fact, I made snow there and cleared trails at the ripe ole age of 19.  I have struggled with all the negative news since it is a place close to my heart from a  resort perspective.  There is lots to ski there and I hope the place pulls through all the shenanigans.



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## Steve@jpr (Dec 26, 2016)

We had gone out with the expectation it would open the week of December 19-23.  The State inspected it on the 22nd and asked that we do a few more modifications to the slack rope carrier that took us another day.  There are plenty of should of's in this business and as a rule we try to underpromise because operations (be tit snowmaking, grooming or lift ops) is connected to pieces (the weather) that we just can't control.



Jcb890 said:


> Hi Steve - I appreciate you coming on here and replying to posts.  It just seemed like more terrain could have been open and there was not a push to open new terrain.  Wasn't the Tram supposed to be done last Saturday?  Then it was supposed to be done this Saturday.  Now its Sunday.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Dec 26, 2016)

It was on wind hold early, ran the rest of the day.



billo said:


> Merry Christmas, the tram is still closed.


----------



## Jcb890 (Dec 27, 2016)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Merry Christmas,
> 
> ...



If we didn't like Jay or want to support Jay, we wouldn't be in here making our voices heard, hoping something comes of it.  If we didn't care, we would simply take our money elsewhere and never go back.  I'll say it again... the mountain is great, the terrain is great, everyone I have ever met that works there has been very helpful and friendly.  Was I disappointed with the perceived effort to open terrain while I was there?  Yes.  Will I give the mountain another shot and will I be back?  Yes.


----------



## dlague (Dec 27, 2016)

All of the news and recent issues are kind of sad for me in many respects.  Jay Peak is where I learned to ski and was technically my feeder hill.  As a teen I thought then that Jay Peak was da bomb.  Even went to work for them for a year between a year college and going into the military.  Jay Peak seems so different now and to some extent has lost its glimmer.  While I am still a fan of Jay Peak, my visits there will be limited since the main reason for skiing there was the fact that my parents home was up there.  That is now history and a trip up there requires a stay which I will more than likely not do.  I live vicariously through your stories and experiences.  That being said I hope that the lift issues are put to bed soon and a more positive outlook will arise.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2017)

Trial date is set: September, 2018

https://vtdigger.org/2017/02/07/quiros-eb-5-fraud-trial-set-september-2018/


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2017)

Burke paid their property taxes in full.  Jay made a partial payment.  

The payments were for a substantial sum, which is good news.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2017)

Interesting article in the Burlington Free Press today.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...ldberg-plans-quadruple-profits-year/96993370/

If projections hold, the asking price for Jay Peak would be in the neighborhood of $80 million.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2017)

That article makes no sense based on the historical financials we're aware of.  

My guess is what we have here is a reporter who doesn't understand the difference between the word, "profit", and the word, "revenue", which I see all the time when the article isn't from a dedicated financial source (i.e. Wall Street Journal, Barrons, IBD, etc...).   A 10x multiple is kind of crazy too, FWIW.


EDIT:  Just looked up some data, and Jay Peak's operating profit last year was over $12M, so I guess they really do mean $8M in profit this year.  No idea how that's possible even without considering the recent costs they've had.  It's pretty obvious Jay Peak has aggressively cut costs this year though.  For instance, on a recent trip I ate at Alice's Table, and the menu was probably 1/3 the size of the past.  I asked the waiter, "why the change" and he told me it's because they're so understaffed the smaller menu makes things run quicker.  Even so, my lunch took an *HOUR & FIFTEEN minutes out of my ski day* because the wait staff was clearly taxed to the max.  Unacceptable.  Not the waitier's fault, but lets just say I wont be eating at Alice's Table again, which is sad because the food's good and I like the place.


----------



## dlague (Feb 10, 2017)

Interesting!

Regarding the Alice's Table, I have always expected normal sit down restaurant times.  We generally ate at The Foundry or from the Tower Bar.  Always thought food was decent and prices good.

I an very curious about what will happen to Jay Peak and Burke which are two places that I grew up skiing at.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That article makes no sense based on the historical financials we're aware of.
> 
> My guess is what we have here is a reporter who doesn't understand the difference between the word, "profit", and the word, "revenue", which I see all the time when the article isn't from a dedicated financial source (i.e. Wall Street Journal, Barrons, IBD, etc...).   A 10x multiple is kind of crazy too, FWIW.
> 
> ...


We were more upset about mountain operations and a perceived lack of urgency to open up closed terrain/lifts, but we certainly noticed staffing issues as well.  Alice's Table was pretty busy throughout or stay and always understaffed.  Luckily we didn't eat lunch there, but we did stop for drinks a couple of times and service was slow.  We didn't say anything though because it obviously isn't the help's fault.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2017)

lol lunch. you're doing it wrong.


----------



## dlague (Feb 10, 2017)

Ski during lunch!


----------



## Jcb890 (Feb 10, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol lunch. you're doing it wrong.


We stopped and grabbed the Ramen noodles outside for a quick breather and some sustenance.  Quick and delicious.


----------



## tnt1234 (Feb 10, 2017)

dlague said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Regarding the Alice's Table, I have always expected normal sit down restaurant times.  We generally ate at The Foundry or from the Tower Bar.  Always thought food was decent and prices good.
> 
> I an very curious about what will happen to Jay Peak and Burke which are two places that I grew up skiing at.



I like the little pizza place around back.  In and out super fast.  Seems to be oft overlooked.  Beer on tap if you need it.  Easy to bring pizza with you to stand on the tram line as well....

We stayed a Jay a few years ago and had a full blown dinner at Alices - was really, really nice.  But this was early on in the Ponzi scheme - like their 2nd year open - so things were well staffed, and the menu/food/everything was great.

Gosh, that was a great trip...cold, but great.

I never skied the old Jay, but certainly knew what it was all about - I thought they did a nice job trying to retain a little old style edginess with the new digs...but I could see how it wouldn't feel the same to someone who really grew up there.  


Was at the new Stateside lodge last year for the first time, and you know, you can kind of see the start of the scheme unraveling just in the way the two base areas are done.  The bar, lounge, facilities of the stateside lodge struck me as kind of cheesy and cheaply done, where as the Tram side bars I thought were cool and funky - and again, IMO a nice homage to old school, but with all modern facilities and conveniences....

Anyway - love the mountain anyway, or maybe now, because of the quirks.  If they survive this relatively unscathed, it kind of adds to the mythos, right?  You can't kill Jay Peak!!!!


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2017)

For selfish reasons, I wish that there was some information in the article about how well Burke is doing.  

They are spending money at Burke to put out a good ski product, which is a good sign.  

IMHO, the lack of money spent on skiing infrastructure at Jay is going to drive down the price.  New hotels are great, but there hasn't been much in the way of improvements made to the mountain itself.

But the article is certainly good news.  A great snow year can't  be hurting, either.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> EDIT:  Just looked up some data, and *Jay Peak's operating profit last year was over $12M.*


So why were they behind on property taxes and scrounging up money from settlements to make it through the off season?  This doesn't make sense to someone like me who knows next to nothing about accounting.


----------



## benski (Feb 10, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> So why were they behind on property taxes and scrounging up money from settlements to make it through the off season?  This doesn't make sense to someone like me who knows next to nothing about accounting.



operating income does not include taxes and interest. I am not sure if it includes the fraud.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Feb 10, 2017)

Dan (D'Ambrosia) is a good guy and a good reporter but you're right here BG-there were far too many numbers being tossed around in that interview that weren't properly contextualized.  Suffice to say, and I'm sure you understand, I can't get into specific ebitda/noi expectations here but now that the EB5 infrastructure has been cleared away, it's obviopusly a hell of a lot easier to get a clear read on the financials and what the appropriate path to profitability (and increased profitability) could/should be.  I can say that in the 15 year's I've been associated with JP, we're heading into the last 9 weeks of the fiscal in the best financial shape we've ever been in.  If you had told me this'd be the case back on April 14th, it would have been a tough swallow.  Still only in about the 5th inning here and the bottom could disapear for sure, but we're all hopeful.

I can say that most of the labor related cost cuts this year centered on redundant mid level mgmt and that EB5 infrastructure (which was far from insignificant as you can prob guess).  Any lightnesss on the front line certainly isn't from a lack of trying to hustle it together-and at across the board increased starting wages-just a difficult labor market and we're doing what we can to get where we need to be.  To your point on the increased turnaround time in Alice's-we shortened the menu across 3 Saturdays this year-twice because lack of kitchen staff forced us to limit offerings during a weekend where staff just couldn't get to work because of poorly timed (I guess that's what you'd call it) storms.  Hate to do this because you're right, it spoils what is pretty widely known as a good experience, but it was the only way we could assure wait times wouldn't be worse.  I really hope we don't have to do that again, and we're going to work hard to not have to.

steve



My guess is what we have here is a reporter who doesn't understand the difference between the word, "profit", and the word, "revenue", which I see all the time when the article isn't from a dedicated financial source (i.e. Wall Street Journal, Barrons, IBD, etc...).   A 10x multiple is kind of crazy too, FWIW.


EDIT:  Just looked up some data, and Jay Peak's operating profit last year was over $12M, so I guess they really do mean $8M in profit this year.  No idea how that's possible even without considering the recent costs they've had.  It's pretty obvious Jay Peak has aggressively cut costs this year though.  For instance, on a recent trip I ate at Alice's Table, and the menu was probably 1/3 the size of the past.  I asked the waiter, "why the change" and he told me it's because they're so understaffed the smaller menu makes things run quicker.  Even so, my lunch took an *HOUR & FIFTEEN minutes out of my ski day* because the wait staff was clearly taxed to the max.  Unacceptable.  Not the waitier's fault, but lets just say I wont be eating at Alice's Table again, which is sad because the food's good and I like the place.  [/QUOTE]


----------



## Steve@jpr (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm not necessarily in a position to speak for MG, but his responsibility, ultimately and only, is to protect the assets.  He needs to manage cash outflows to cover things like tram upgrades, tax payments, vendor payments and, ultimately, contractor payments.  Everything will ultimately happen, but the cadence of it can't put the asset at risk (ie, using cashflow to pay taxes, vendors/contractors and repairs in a such a way that may risk the asset should, say, weather put us in a bad position.  I think as it becomes clearer the season will be a win, you'll start to see payments and repayments start to accelerate.  And as far as knowing next to nothing about accounting, I check that column as well.

steve



VTKilarney said:


> So why were they behind on property taxes and scrounging up money from settlements to make it through the off season?  This doesn't make sense to someone like me who knows next to nothing about accounting.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2017)

Thanks Steve. At least the weather is cooperating this year!









Jay Peak Out of the Storm by Tim_NEK, on Flickr


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2017)

More importantly, how are the trees right now?

Really love that you make candid posts here, keep up the good work, we are all pulling for jay


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## Steve@jpr (Feb 10, 2017)

Miso Hungry has been a big hit.  I'm working with a few more vendors for possible Stateside additions next yr.



Jcb890 said:


> We stopped and grabbed the Ramen noodles outside for a quick breather and some sustenance.  Quick and delicious.


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## Steve@jpr (Feb 10, 2017)

They're ok--were better before Wednesday's shit blip.  But the next 7 days looks really nice and the snowpack is nuts right now.  I was at Stowe today and the place is skiing fantastic (and fantastically cold)


KustyTheKlown said:


> More importantly, how are the trees right now?
> 
> Really love that you make candid posts here, keep up the good work, we are all pulling for jay


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 10, 2017)

Steve@jpr said:


> I was at Stowe today...



Trying to snake the Vail execs away from Stowe and into buying Jay ehhh? :lol:;-)


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 10, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol lunch. you're doing it wrong.



Honestly, outside of holiday weekends, I find the "ski during lunch" thing to be a wives tale.  Yes, the lines are admittedly shorter, but not dramatically so to make much of a difference.  My 2¢.  Holiday weekends, yes, that strategy does pay off.



Steve@jpr said:


> To your point on the increased turnaround time in Alice's-we shortened the menu across 3 Saturdays this year-twice because lack of kitchen staff forced us to limit offerings during a weekend where staff just couldn't get to work because of poorly timed (I guess that's what you'd call it) storms.



Oh, so it's not an every weekend thing that was started?   That's good to hear if so, I'll give it another try next week then.  I've eaten there since it opened and enjoy the place very much.



benski said:


> operating income does not include taxes and interest. I am not sure if it includes the fraud.



I went back again and looked after VTKilarney's comment, because he's right, that figure didn't make sense really and surprised me.  Turns out it was sited by Quirors! lol.  So..... no reason to believe it's true.  Below is more accurate:



> *Jay’s pretax profits were $2.6 million for FY 2014, $3 million for fiscal year 2015, and through February 2016 appeared to be on track for $1.8 million for FY 2016*, Goldberg said.



So yeah, I'd have to go back to by original theory that $8M is completely unrealistic unless they increase alcohol sales by 28,483%.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 10, 2017)

Lunch is a waste of time and money. Time that should be spent skiing. And you're crazy if you don't think the hill is way quieter from 1130-130

Eat a big hearty breakfast. Fill pockets with granola/cheese/fruit/jerky, carry a drink on you, feast like a king at 330, get dinner later.


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## snoseek (Feb 10, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Lunch is a waste of time and money. Time that should be spent skiing. And you're crazy if you don't think the hill is way quieter from 1130-130
> 
> Eat a big hearty breakfast. Fill pockets with granola/cheese/fruit/jerky, carry a drink on you, feast like a king at 330, get dinner later.



While your strategy is ideal, I always find myself wanting a midday rest and a pint or two. I usually don't buy food but if I do its almost always at the bar.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 10, 2017)

I'd just like to take a minute to thank Steve@jpr for posting on here and being so candid.

You guys have gotten flak all season (myself included) and you have been here all season, addressing questions and seemingly providing honest answers.  While Jay Peak will continue to get called out on potential issues (again, myself included), we really do appreciate you taking the time to post on here and at least fill us in somewhat.

As far as I'm concerned personally, if I didn't like Jay Peak so much, I wouldn't bother voicing concerns.


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## Edd (Feb 10, 2017)

snoseek said:


> While your strategy is ideal, I always find myself wanting a midday rest and a pint or two. I usually don't buy food but if I do its almost always at the bar.



Ditto


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## Steve@jpr (Feb 11, 2017)

I def understand and thanks.  I wouldn't be coming out here and bothering if I didn't think that it was worth it and that you deserved straight answers to sincere questions.



Jcb890 said:


> I'd just like to take a minute to thank Steve@jpr for posting on here and being so candid.
> 
> You guys have gotten flak all season (myself included) and you have been here all season, addressing questions and seemingly providing honest answers.  While Jay Peak will continue to get called out on potential issues (again, myself included), we really do appreciate you taking the time to post on here and at least fill us in somewhat.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned personally, if I didn't like Jay Peak so much, I wouldn't bother voicing concerns.


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## yeggous (Feb 11, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Lunch is a waste of time and money. Time that should be spent skiing. And you're crazy if you don't think the hill is way quieter from 1130-130
> 
> Eat a big hearty breakfast. Fill pockets with granola/cheese/fruit/jerky, carry a drink on you, feast like a king at 330, get dinner later.



Spoken like a man who does not ski with a wife.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Feb 11, 2017)

yeggous said:


> Spoken like a man who does not ski with a wife.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


That, or skis at very busy areas. As you know, I've got zero issues taking an hour mid day at Wildcat.  Still get 30-40k vertical in or more easily. 

To me, it's not the total hours you spend trying to ski, it's actual time on snow. At Cat I can accomplish more in 4-5 hours than a full day at Stowe. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## albert a ripper (Feb 11, 2017)

And that is why I also love wildcat.   When the express is at full speed, over 2k vertical in under 7 minutes.  I've never been as spent at the end of the day (on the east coast) as I have been at wildcat.  To me there's nothing more frustrating than taking a lift to a transverse to a lift to get a 1400ft vertical drop.  My wife gets cold, and that means I'm not having fun.


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## Brad J (Feb 12, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> That, or skis at very busy areas. As you know, I've got zero issues taking an hour mid day at Wildcat.  Still get 30-40k vertical in or more easily.
> 
> To me, it's not the total hours you spend trying to ski, it's actual time on snow. At Cat I can accomplish more in 4-5 hours than a full day at Stowe.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



And quality terrain with gondiline open T2B


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## Brad J (Feb 12, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> That, or skis at very busy areas. As you know, I've got zero issues taking an hour mid day at Wildcat.  Still get 30-40k vertical in or more easily.
> 
> To me, it's not the total hours you spend trying to ski, it's actual time on snow. At Cat I can accomplish more in 4-5 hours than a full day at Stowe.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



And quality terrain with gondiline open T2B


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 13, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> That, or skis at very busy areas. As you know, I've got zero issues taking an hour mid day at Wildcat.



I just think the "ski through lunch" ski mantra is a myth in general.   Think about the math on the time involved. 

 How many more runs are you really going to get by skiing during lunch hour?  Not many.   Even if the line's 4 minutes lunch versus 14 minutes non-lunch, there's still the time of the chair ride involved to the top of the mountain and all the time it takes to get down the mountain, then another 4 minute wait...etc... Maybe you get an extra 2 runs in during the totality of a 7.5 or 8 hour ski day by skipping lunch.   Meh....  I'd rather eat.  

But regardless, some people act like they're getting 38 more runs than you are because they carried a granola bar in their pocket, and my point is, this is clearly false.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 13, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Maybe you get an extra 2 runs in during the totality of a 7.5 or 8 hour ski day by skipping lunch.   Meh....  I'd rather eat.


If the difference is between having a real lunch and snacking on granola bars while riding the lift, I am completely in your corner.


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## yeggous (Feb 13, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> If the difference is between having a real lunch and snacking on granola bars while riding the lift, I am completely in your corner.



Word. For me a hot lunch is well worth the time. Especially with socialization in play it can be the highlight of my day.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Feb 13, 2017)

I don't skip lunch...I just take a late lunch. For me it isn't about extra runs (although maybe I do get an extra one or two in). I just find it nice to be out skiing when the place suddenly empties out for an hour or so.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 13, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Lunch is a waste of time and money. Time that should be spent skiing. And you're crazy if you don't think the hill is way quieter from 1130-130
> 
> Eat a big hearty breakfast. Fill pockets with granola/cheese/fruit/jerky, carry a drink on you, feast like a king at 330, get dinner later.



I don't know...big breakfast yes, but if I'm skiing hard, I usually need some electrolytes, a bite of food and a short break to recharge.  We typically pack a cooler so we don't wast time in the food line....

Much rather enjoy the PM recharged.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 13, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I just think the "ski through lunch" ski mantra is a myth in general.   Think about the math on the time involved.
> 
> How many more runs are you really going to get by skiing during lunch hour?  Not many.   Even if the line's 4 minutes lunch versus 14 minutes non-lunch, there's still the time of the chair ride involved to the top of the mountain and all the time it takes to get down the mountain, then another 4 minute wait...etc... Maybe you get an extra 2 runs in during the totality of a 7.5 or 8 hour ski day by skipping lunch.   Meh....  I'd rather eat.
> 
> But regardless, some people act like they're getting 38 more runs than you are because they carried a granola bar in their pocket, and my point is, this is clearly false.



Well, I think it's just getting old...

I used to hate to stop too, but as I get a little older, I just can't go that long without a little break and some food.


----------



## Jully (Feb 13, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> Well, I think it's just getting old...
> 
> I used to hate to stop too, but as I get a little older, I just can't go that long without a little break and some food.



Few years ago I was doing the granola bar plan and no stopping (I was really amped that day for whatever reason) but got incredibly nauseous around 1:00pm then thought I was going to pass out in the middle of Hayburner at SL. I managed to make it down, but had to miss the rest of the ski day due to some severe dizziness. I was low on sleep, had a smaller than normal breakfast, it was mad cold out, and pretty early in the season (early December), but it was still a wake up call. 

Now I'm much more careful and its only on the rare rare day that I skip lunch. On those days I make sure to prepare for it too.


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## JimG. (Feb 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> i don't skip lunch...i just take a late lunch. For me it isn't about extra runs (although maybe i do get an extra one or two in). I just find it nice to be out skiing when the place suddenly empties out for an hour or so.



this!


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## albert a ripper (Feb 13, 2017)

I picked up a vw vanagon just so I could eat lunch and warm up a bit.   It has the folding down table, fits 7 people.  We park as close as we can to the trail/lift and buy beers on the way up.  I use a 24oz food thermos that I usually fill with soup/stew/chili.   Lunch is a 20 minute ordeal, not an hour.  Much cheaper, and not deep fried junk.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 13, 2017)

albert a ripper said:


> I picked up a vw vanagon just so I could eat lunch and warm up a bit.   It has the folding down table, fits 7 people.  We park as close as we can to the trail/lift and buy beers on the way up.  I use a 24oz food thermos that I usually fill with soup/stew/chili.   Lunch is a 20 minute ordeal, not an hour.  Much cheaper, and not deep fried junk.


Nice! Keep me posted next time you're at Wildcat. I'll bring beers!

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 13, 2017)

Never even considered eating at Alices the place looks slow af

I was served quickly and with a smile at Tower Bar last trip on a busy day. In and out quick and it was a fair bill.

Sent from my LG-D850 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 13, 2017)

yeggous said:


> Spoken like a man who does not ski with a wife.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


Haha I was just gonna say.

Sent from my LG-D850 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## albert a ripper (Feb 13, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Nice! Keep me posted next time you're at Wildcat. I'll bring beers!


See you at C lot!   Seriously though, its the only blue vanagon that you'll ever see there.   If you see us, we'll have a beer for you.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 14, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> *Never even considered eating at Alices the place looks slow af*
> 
> I was served quickly and with a smile at Tower Bar last trip on a busy day. In and out quick and it was a fair bill.



It didn't used to be.  I eat at Alice's Table almost every time I ski at Jay and that was the only horrible experience I've ever had. 

 Maybe I'll try Tower Bar this week if it's quicker, though I dont know why it would be any quicker unless some people dont know it's there yet.


EDIT:  Wait, just remembered Tower Bar is the name of the place right next to Alice's so that doestnt really make sense.  I thought you meant whatever the newish' place is Stateside, I havent eaten there yet.


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## dlague (Feb 14, 2017)

Eat at the Foundry!  Leave skis close to there when done eating then take the Magic Carpet and ski over to Flyer - yes I am lazy!


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## VTKilarney (Feb 19, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I don't skip lunch...I just take a late lunch. For me it isn't about extra runs (although maybe I do get an extra one or two in). I just find it nice to be out skiing when the place suddenly empties out for an hour or so.


 Why would the trails be any less crowded?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 19, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Why would the trails be any less crowded?



The Hordes are all in the lodge stuffing their faces?


----------



## cdskier (Feb 19, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> The Hordes are all in the lodge stuffing their faces?



I think what VTK was trying to insinuate is that just because lines are gone doesn't mean the trails are less crowded though if you assume that every chair is still going up full (so same number of people being dumped off at the top, just without lines at the bottom). However, during lunch hour there are plenty of times (at least in my experience where I ski) where every lift no longer has every chair going up full. Plus when you have lines at the bottom, you also tend to get people hanging out up top waiting for others and then skiing down in big groups, thus leading to more crowded trails.

Of course I could be completely off base on where he was going with that question. I'll just say that my own experience is that during lunch hour, lifts AND trails are less crowded.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 20, 2017)

Correct.  A full chair is a full chair, even if the line at the bottom is shorter.  If the slopes are less busy, I am willing to bet that it is imperceptible.


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2017)

You can bet what you want, but in my experience the slopes are without a doubt less busy during that time. I'm not going to say every ski area is like that, but where I am I've noticed it. It isn't some figment of my imagination.


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## JimG. (Feb 20, 2017)

cdskier said:


> You can bet what you want, but in my experience the slopes are without a doubt less busy during that time. I'm not going to say every ski area is like that, but where I am I've noticed it. It isn't some figment of my imagination.



Nor mine I agree with you 100% but encourage all others to believe otherwise.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 20, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Nor mine I agree with you 100% but encourage all others to believe otherwise.


I'll err on the side of simple mathematics.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 20, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Correct.  A full chair is a full chair, even if the line at the bottom is shorter.  If the slopes are less busy, I am willing to bet that it is imperceptible.



A line at the chair lift indicates that the down hill traffic flow rate is greater than the uphill traffic flow rate.

So a line at a chair is an indication that the trails are more crowded than a time where there is no line at the chair lift.

Right?


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## benski (Feb 20, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> A line at the chair lift indicates that the down hill traffic flow rate is greater than the uphill traffic flow rate.
> 
> So a line at a chair is an indication that the trails are more crowded than a time where there is no line at the chair lift.
> 
> Right?



Doesn't downhill flow rate=uphill flow rate number of lift rides=number of runs skied at most ski areas and the lift ride comes before the run at all but a few ski areas.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 20, 2017)

benski said:


> Doesn't downhill flow rate=uphill flow rate number of lift rides=number of runs skied at most ski areas and the lift ride comes before the run at all but a few ski areas.



No - the down hill flow rate does not necessarily = the uphill flow rate because skiers ski at different rates.  Also, some lifts are fed by trails accessed by multiple lifts.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 20, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> No - the down hill flow rate does not necessarily = the uphill flow rate because skiers ski at different rates.  Also, some lifts are fed by trails accessed by multiple lifts.



Well, I did say simple mathematics, LOL.  

But here is what I don't understand.  Let's assume that 33% of skiers ski slowly, 33% ski medium, and 33% ski fast.  If that is what is being dumped off at the top of the hill by the chairlift, how does it matter whether more skiers are in line or not?  If anything, a short line gets slower skiers more runs per hour than a long line.  So wouldn't the slower skiers spend more time on the trail itself during the lunch hour?

I actually see some serious math here.  It's an interesting question.

Here is what might make an actual difference in real life.  Families and beginners are more prone to take a lunch break.  This means that a disproportionate number of slow skiers are in the lodge.  But they aren't skiing the trails that I like to ski.  So if there is a higher percentage of better skiers on the hill during lunch, I would anticipate that the trails that I like to ski are more crowded during lunch.


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## dlague (Feb 20, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Correct.  A full chair is a full chair, even if the line at the bottom is shorter.  If the slopes are less busy, I am willing to bet that it is imperceptible.


I often think that lunch time skiing is not so much about less crowds than it is about shorter lift lines.  Bonus is when it is ski on ski off with empty chairs as well.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## dlague (Feb 20, 2017)

benski said:


> Doesn't downhill flow rate=uphill flow rate number of lift rides=number of runs skied at most ski areas and the lift ride comes before the run at all but a few ski areas.


No because the bigger the lines the more people that seem to hang out on the trails.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## tnt1234 (Feb 20, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, I did say simple mathematics, LOL.
> 
> But here is what I don't understand.  Let's assume that 33% of skiers ski slowly, 33% ski medium, and 33% ski fast.  If that is what is being dumped off at the top of the hill by the chairlift, how does it matter whether more skiers are in line or not?  If anything, a short line gets slower skiers more runs per hour than a long line.  So wouldn't the slower skiers spend more time on the trail itself during the lunch hour?
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's fun to think about these kinds of puzzles....

And you know....I think my original statement isn't always true.

And example of a long line NOT indicating crowded trails, yet still indicating downhill flow > uphill flow...   If it's a wickedly slow lift, or the lift is experiencing delays....in that case, the line is simply caused by very slow uphill traffic, and the trails might be relatively empty.

But a fast lift running consistently...well, in that case, the long line indicates crowded trails...I think. 


Say the 4-runner takes 10 minutes to get to the top.  I would bet the average skier takes longer than 10 minutes to cover the 2000 vert back to the base.  So if the lift keeps churning at a rate greater than the average decent rate, and people keep showing up to ski....they keep getting to the top in 10, average decent time being say 15 minutes, initially there might be no line as people are defending, but if more and more people are coming, eventually they end up on the trails together and then in the line at the bottom.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 20, 2017)

dlague said:


> I often think that lunch time skiing is not so much about less crowds than it is about shorter lift lines.


That is a definite advantage, although as BG stated it adds up to a run or maybe two.  But there is something to be said for the mental element.  It's like being stuck in a traffic jam.  I'd much rather be stuck in traffic that is moving, albeit slowly, than traffic that is stopped, even if the delay is exactly the same.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 20, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> That is a definite advantage, although as BG stated it adds up to a run or maybe two.  But there is something to be said for the mental element.  It's like being stuck in a traffic jam.



Well is wouldn't have helped you at Jay Peak on Saturday, because the lift lines were ridiculous all over the mountain.  They never shut down ticket sales and it was horrendous.  The line at the Flyer backed up the hill so far that you actually had to stand sideways because you were up the hill.  Also, an employee told me they waited 1.5 HOURS for the tram!!!!!  I understand that they're in a terrible spot financially, but they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.  It definitely impacted Sunday sales as I heard more than a few _"screw this, we aint coming back tomorrow"_ grumblings during the day, and sure enough, yesterday really wasnt that bad at all for a PDW Sunday with good conditions.   I was pleasantly surprised especially given how awful Saturday was.  

As for your mathematical puzzle, assuming the lift is continuously running at constant capacity, then your _"simple math"_ is correct.  It wouldn't matter if every person on earth was in line, or if just enough people to continuously keep every chair filled for the duration of your study was in line.  The perceived on hill crowding would be the same, it's the lift line wait that would be different!


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## fbrissette (Feb 20, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well is wouldn't have helped you at Jay Peak on Saturday, because the lift lines were ridiculous all over the mountain.  They never shut down ticket sales and it was horrendous.  The line at the Flyer backed up the hill so far that you actually had to stand sideways because you were up the hill.  Also, an employee told me they waited 1.5 HOURS for the tram!!!!!



Worst lines I have seen in 7 years of skiing every week-end at Jay Peak.  And by quite a margin.  

While Sunday lines were significantly shorter than Saturday, they were still the worst lines I have seen on a Sunday.   It's actually exceptional to have to wait more than a minute or two on a Sunday at Jay peak (not counting the Tram).

Saturday was the perfect storm in terms of crowds - huge snowfalls in the previous days, beautiful weather, and the beginning of President's week.


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## cdskier (Feb 20, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Worst lines I have seen in 7 years of skiing every week-end at Jay Peak.  And by quite a margin.



I would not at all be surprised if Saturday was the single busiest day ever in the northeast. Even Plattekill in the Catskills had a 4-5 minute lift line much of the time on Saturday!


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## tnt1234 (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well is wouldn't have helped you at Jay Peak on Saturday, because the lift lines were ridiculous all over the mountain.  They never shut down ticket sales and it was horrendous.  The line at the Flyer backed up the hill so far that you actually had to stand sideways because you were up the hill.  Also, an employee told me they waited 1.5 HOURS for the tram!!!!!  I understand that they're in a terrible spot financially, but they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.  It definitely impacted Sunday sales as I heard more than a few _"screw this, we aint coming back tomorrow"_ grumblings during the day, and sure enough, yesterday really wasnt that bad at all for a PDW Sunday with good conditions.   I was pleasantly surprised especially given how awful Saturday was.
> 
> As for your mathematical puzzle, assuming the lift is continuously running at constant capacity, then your _"simple math"_ is correct.  It wouldn't matter if every person on earth was in line, or if just enough people to continuously keep every chair filled for the duration of your study was in line.  The perceived on hill crowding would be the same, it's the lift line wait that would be different!




I think that is only true if the average skier DESCENT is less than the average skier ASCENT.

IOW - if the ride up the mountain takes 8 minutes and the ski down the mountain takes 6, then yes, the trail will have the same number of people on it and the line at the bottom will grow.

But if the ride up the mountain takes 8 minutes and the ski down takes 10, a line would only develop as new skiers are introduced into the equation, either from arrival or from entering the trail from a different part of the mountain.  So, if the ski down is greater thant he ride up, and a line develops at the base, that could - but not necessarily would - indicate the trails are more crowded.

(I remember years and years ago reading an article about the effects of HSQs on the ski experience.  And this was discussed.  While it was great that the lifts could get people up the mountain faster, and you spend less time on the lift and in the line, a negative consequence was that more people were actually skiing at once on trails not capable of handing the capacity.)


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## tnt1234 (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I would not at all be surprised if Saturday was the single busiest day ever in the northeast. Even Plattekill in the Catskills had a 4-5 minute lift line much of the time on Saturday!



Just something to file away....we were at Belleayre Saturday and I was totally freaking out worrying about the crowds.  The road in was crowded and slow, the access road was packed. parking lots filling up while we unloaded....almost got back in the car and drove to Platty.

But we could see lift 7 was ski-on, so we forged ahead.

Place was crowded, but the only significant line we had was the super chief.  I was pretty impressed at how the mountain handled the crowd.  7 and Tomahawk lifts all day were maybe 3-5 minute wait at worst, and often near to ski on.

Having said that, really bummed we haven't made it to Platty this year.  Was planning on going saturday but looks like hard rain and 50F.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> *Worst lines I have seen in 7 years of skiing every week-end at Jay Peak.  And by quite a margin.  *



My streak of skiing Presidents Weekend at Jay Peak is officially over PDW 2018.  There's no way in hell I'm skiing there if they're not going to cap sales.  

Someone told me they were pushing 7,000 ticket sales on Saturday (I'll have to ask them, because I didnt ask if this includes vouchers, snowchecks, and other non-paids, but I dont think it does), which doesn't include liftopia (I dont think), pre-paid vacationers, and season pass holders etc...  They believed it was the record.    Yes, you're correct regarding Sunday always being lighter than Saturday (unless there's bad weather on Saturday), but my point was given how life-sucking Saturday was, I was "happy" with Sunday's crowds.  I can deal with a line on a holiday weekend, just not the line to get into Giants Stadium versus the Eagles.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well is wouldn't have helped you at Jay Peak on Saturday, because the lift lines were ridiculous all over the mountain.  They never shut down ticket sales and it was horrendous.  The line at the Flyer backed up the hill so far that you actually had to stand sideways because you were up the hill.  Also, an employee told me they waited 1.5 HOURS for the tram!!!!!  I understand that they're in a terrible spot financially, but they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.  It definitely impacted Sunday sales as I heard more than a few _"screw this, we aint coming back tomorrow"_ grumblings during the day, and sure enough, yesterday really wasnt that bad at all for a PDW Sunday with good conditions.   I was pleasantly surprised especially given how awful Saturday was.
> 
> As for your mathematical puzzle, assuming the lift is continuously running at constant capacity, then your _"simple math"_ is correct.  It wouldn't matter if every person on earth was in line, or if just enough people to continuously keep every chair filled for the duration of your study was in line.  The perceived on hill crowding would be the same, it's the lift line wait that would be different!


Holy hell!  That sounds awful.


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## gladerider (Feb 22, 2017)

jay peak's line problem is that there are only 2 main lifts to spread out the crowd. the flyer and bonnie. if they had put another chair on top of the andre's paradise and another one nearby, the crowd at the flyer wouldn't be too bad at all.
i was on the tram on sunday and the guy operating the door said that they are planning a major tram upgrade this summer. not sure what that means. i think the tram capacity is around 50 but they were only putting like 30 each time. i think they are worried about something.

my group has been coming to jay for the PDW for the last few years. i think this is our last trip for a while. think we are going to sugarbush/killington next year.


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## tnt1234 (Feb 22, 2017)

gladerider said:


> jay peak's line problem is that there are only 2 main lifts to spread out the crowd. the flyer and bonnie. if they had put another chair on top of the andre's paradise and another one nearby, the crowd at the flyer wouldn't be too bad at all.
> i was on the tram on sunday and the guy operating the door said that they are planning a major tram upgrade this summer. not sure what that means. i think the tram capacity is around 50 but they were only putting like 30 each time. i think they are worried about something.
> 
> my group has been coming to jay for the PDW for the last few years. i think this is our last trip for a while. think we are going to sugarbush/killington next year.



The tram had issues early in the season.  Electrical something-something....I forget exactly.

Wonder if they are loading light because of that...


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## tnt1234 (Feb 22, 2017)

Hey, you guys that were at Jay recently - any sense about the woods snow pack surviving this upcoming shit show of weather?

I'm heading to N. Vt 3/3 and we're trying to weight options for Sat/Sun/Mon. Looks like it's going to be warm, so corn snow in the woods sure would be fun, but not sure what will make it through a week and a half of warmth and rain.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

gladerider said:


> my group has been coming to jay for the PDW for the last few years. i think this is our last trip for a while. think we are going to sugarbush/killington next year.



Killington was a zoo according to my one buddy that was there with his family. He said he was happy that he managed to get in 10 runs on Saturday, although I don't know how long he was actually out. I heard they had around 17,500 people on the mountain Saturday.

My cousin was at Sugarbush with his family and said lines moved pretty quick. I looked at the web cams a couple times on Saturday and thought Lincoln Peak looked crazy, although my cousin was at Mt Ellen that day so that was probably the better choice for a bit less crowds. Sugarbush supposedly had around 9800 people on Saturday.


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## gladerider (Feb 22, 2017)

if any mountain survives this upcoming tragedy, it's jay IMHO. 
not sure how much rain they will get in the next few days, but the woods are deep.
i was in the everglades and staircase the past couple of days. the surface is hard and the main routes in the woods are showing rocks and stuff but in general the base is very deep. i was worried about the rain before coming up here but jay didn't get much rain at all. it is just the thawing and freezing that killed everything. the main arteries (goat & northway) are just sheets of ice. another foot will turn this mountain right back to its decent shape.


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## gladerider (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Killington was a zoo according to my one buddy that was there with his family. He said he was happy that he managed to get in 10 runs on Saturday, although I don't know how long he was actually out. I heard they had around 17,500 people on the mountain Saturday.
> 
> My cousin was at Sugarbush with his family and said lines moved pretty quick. I looked at the web cams a couple times on Saturday and thought Lincoln Peak looked crazy, although my cousin was at Mt Ellen that day so that was probably the better choice for a bit less crowds. Sugarbush supposedly had around 9800 people on Saturday.



my group comes to jay for its powder. we haven't been so lucky the last few years. we like sugarbush's terrain. we haven't been there in a while. time to go back.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> My streak of skiing Presidents Weekend at Jay Peak is officially over PDW 2018.  There's no way in hell I'm skiing there if they're not going to cap sales.
> 
> Someone told me they were pushing 7,000 ticket sales on Saturday (I'll have to ask them, because I didnt ask if this includes vouchers, snowchecks, and other non-paids, but I dont think it does), which doesn't include liftopia (I dont think), pre-paid vacationers, and season pass holders etc...  They believed it was the record.    Yes, you're correct regarding Sunday always being lighter than Saturday (unless there's bad weather on Saturday), but my point was given how life-sucking Saturday was, I was "happy" with Sunday's crowds.  I can deal with a line on a holiday weekend, just not the line to get into Giants Stadium versus the Eagles.


I wouldn't count on Jay or any other major Northeast ski area capping ticket sales on a holiday weekend outside of extraordinary circumstances; like lack of parking.  

It's a holiday weekend. If the weather is good, crowding will be a nightmare.  I pretty much always skip skiing on holidays just like you'd never find me traveling to a beach destination on 4th of July.  If I'm going to recreate during peak times, I'll seek out destinations way off the beaten path.

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

gladerider said:


> *my group has been coming to jay for the PDW for the last few years. i think this is our last trip for a while. *



I heard this from numerous other folks during the considerable "opportunities" I had Saturday to listen to people's lift line conversations, and that was a frequent theme.  That's why I call it cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Sure, they maximized revenue this year, but there's going to be an impact next year etc...  I'll probably stay closer to home and do Plattekill, or maybe follow the advice of a large Canadian crew I talked to who planned to ski Jay Sunday as well, but decided instead to go to Mont Sutton due to Jay's crowds.



tnt1234 said:


> Hey, *you guys that were at Jay recently - any sense about the woods snow pack surviving this upcoming shit show of weather?*



Tough to say.  Woods I did do were all great on Saturday, but I didnt get to hit all of them due to lack of total runs from the lines.  By Sunday they were spring conditions, but still fun with good coverage.  I think I hit everything Sunday except Timbuktu, Kitz, Hells.  Some of the lower glades like Bonaventure had some "holes" in them with streams poking though, so there was at least some minimal damage done.  Evergreen was so icy at the steep section at the top that there were no moguls or troughs, the lines looked groomed because everyone was just side-slipping down until it gets less steep.  They're going to take another hit this week for sure though, and unless there's a significant forecast change I wont be skiing this weekend.



deadheadskier said:


> I wouldn't count on Jay or any other major Northeast ski area capping ticket sales on a holiday weekend outside of extraordinary circumstances;* like lack of parking. *



Funny you should mention that!

Main lot full, parking garages full, creative parking outside the parking garage implemented, parking folks down by the golf course and I heard their overflow lots were full too.  I have to imagine Stateside was full too, but I didnt go down there.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sure, they maximized revenue this year, but there's going to be an impact next year etc...


But isn't the hope to have the resort sold by next winter?  And if so, you can't really blame them for maximizing revenue this year.  Perhaps I am being overly optimistic about the timing of a sale, but in any event maximizing revenue is understandable.



BenedictGomez said:


> I'll probably stay closer to home and do Plattekill, or maybe follow the advice of a large Canadian crew I talked to who planned to ski Jay Sunday as well, but decided instead to go to Mont Sutton due to Jay's crowds.


I've always thought that Canada was a great play for President's Day weekend.  The Eastern Township ski areas aren't much farther than Jay.  Mont Orford is almost the same drive time as Jay from I-91.  Owl's Head is a pain to get to, but it's still not a whole lot farther than Jay.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> But isn't the hope to have the resort sold by next winter?  And if so, you can't really blame them for maximizing revenue this year.  Perhaps I am being overly optimistic about the timing of a sale, but in any event maximizing revenue is understandable.


For an outside company only looking at numbers, that makes sense I guess to help boost Jay's revenue #s.  From a customer service and customer confidence standpoint, it doesn't make nearly as much sense for the new company/owner.  Is someone who is disheartened by how they feel Jay is being run going to automatically return next season just because ownership has changed?  Maybe, but maybe not.  The majority of the skiing and snowboarding public may not even know ownership changed.  This possibly hurts the new owner in terms of customer satisfaction and # of visits.

Just in this thread alone, there has been what, 3 or 4 people who have said they won't be returning to Jay until they see positive changes?  I'm sure there's many more than that, this forum is a very small percentage of the skiing/riding public.


As an example of my question about the public not knowing ownership has changed - I have 2 co-workers who both ski regularly, one of which lives minutes from Smuggler's Notch.  Neither had any idea about Stowe being purchased by Vail.  The general public isn't nearly as hardcore as the demographic on a forum like this one.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> But isn't the hope to have the resort sold by next winter?  And if so, you can't really blame them for maximizing revenue this year.  Perhaps I am being overly optimistic about the timing of a sale, but in any event* maximizing revenue is understandable.*



I understand their plight, and I also realize there's no motivation on the part of the receiver to do anything but bring in $$$$.  Lesson learned; but this guy wont be back for MLK or PDW until I see changes made to alleviate...........whatever exactly that was, on Saturday.


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## machski (Feb 22, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> The tram had issues early in the season.  Electrical something-something....I forget exactly.
> 
> Wonder if they are loading light because of that...


Look back through this thread, the Tram issue has been well documented.  Basically, it was not engineered thoroughly and state tram board limited the capacity in recertifying it this summer with some work done, more that was allowed to be deferred to this coming summer.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## oldtimer (Feb 22, 2017)

PDW set records all across New England.  You can bitch all you want, but there is not a ski area in the region that did not need this weekend's shot in the arm.  After last year's hemorrhaging of $ there is a steep hill to climb.

As for the sale of Jay Peak &/or Burke, the word on the street is that this may not be possible until the civil claims are resolved.  The Q family seems to be fighting this the whole way so it may take a guilty verdict to unravel ownership etc.  At the Burke pass holders meeting they indicated that they were not currently entertaining offers to buy.  As a practical matter, that means each resort NEEDS to generate cash in order for the receiver to keep the operations alive.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 22, 2017)

.....and if they turned business away last weekend, they'd be regretting it this weekend coming up when it will undoubtedly be much less busy due to weather.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I understand their plight, and I also realize there's no motivation on the part of the receiver to do anything but bring in $$$$.  Lesson learned; but this guy wont be back for MLK or PDW until I see changes made to alleviate...........whatever exactly that was, on Saturday.



Note to mother nature for next year. Please DO NOT dump multiple feet of fresh snow on the mountains of Vermont next year the week leading up to President's Day Weekend. It will make too many people excited to get out to the resorts to have fun in it and the resorts really don't need the income. :roll:



oldtimer said:


> PDW set records all across New England.  You can bitch all you want, but there is not a ski area in the region that did not need this weekend's shot in the arm.  After last year's hemorrhaging of $ there is a steep hill to climb.



Truth



> As for the sale of Jay Peak &/or Burke, the word on the street is that this may not be possible until the civil claims are resolved.  The Q family seems to be fighting this the whole way so it may take a guilty verdict to unravel ownership etc.  At the Burke pass holders meeting they indicated that they were not currently entertaining offers to buy.  As a practical matter, that means each resort NEEDS to generate cash in order for the receiver to keep the operations alive.



I was kind of figuring this was going to be the case. Q is still a thorn in the side to us all.


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## Steve@jpr (Feb 22, 2017)

Correct on your counts here-each and every.  When you combine 100% retail occupancy across 650 or so rooms, 100% ownership occ across another few hundred and a quantitatively fantastic multiple week stretch of natural leading into the period-you get heavy compression; it was the same at every and any resort in New England--and actually a bit less-so here (the aforementioned Saturday as an aside) given the reality that many from Canada stay away during the Sat/Sun stretch of PDW.  That said, Saturday was damn busy and I empathize with anyone caught up in whatever line they were caught up in.  We actually sold more tickets Sunday but because of arrivals it felt much more manageable.  Mon-Weds has been fantastic. Aside from lift line conversations in the heat of wait-times, the only reliable predictor of following year business tends to be daily surveys, and people who reserve their spots for next year upon checking out of this one.  Both, at least thus far, have been very, very positive.

As to the likelihood of being sold prior to next year, I certainly have my thoughts, but what I don't know could fill a library.





from_the_NEK said:


> Note to mother nature for next year. Please DO NOT dump multiple feet of fresh snow on the mountains of Vermont next year the week leading up to President's Day Weekend. It will make too many people excited to get out to the resorts to have fun in it and the resorts really don't need the income. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## oldtimer (Feb 22, 2017)

Steve-  you are GREAT to respond.  Thanks


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> Steve-  you are GREAT to respond.  Thanks


He's been great all season providing feedback.  Where's the "like" button when you need it? :smile:


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> He's been great all season providing feedback.  Where's the "like" button when you need it? :smile:



I agree. I love seeing management jumping into the fire so to speak and publicly addressing topics in a forum when needed. You don't see that too often. I know Win from Sugarbush does that in the SkiMRV forum, but offhand I don't know of any other than Steve and Win.


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I agree. I love seeing management jumping into the fire so to speak and publicly addressing topics in a forum when needed. You don't see that too often. I know Win from Sugarbush does that in the SkiMRV forum, but offhand I don't know of any other than Steve and Win.



Chris Farmer has a presence on the Sugarloaf forum. Less relevant now that Saddleback is in prolonged hibernation though...

Either way I also love it when top resort brass has a presence on forums! Way to go Steve!


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 22, 2017)

So when is the EB5 money coming in for the West Bowl expansion so that these crowds can spread out a bit?







;-);-)


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

oldtimer said:


> You can bitch all you want, but there is not a ski area in the region that did not need this weekend's shot in the arm.  After last year's hemorrhaging of $ there is a steep hill to climb.



Thanks for stating the obvious.  In other revelations, snowfall is good for ski resorts.  Doesn't alter the fact that sometimes in rare instances the best business call is to not maximize revenue on a given day.  Were you skiing JP on Saturday?   I highly doubt it.



from_the_NEK said:


> So when is the EB5 money coming in for the West Bowl expansion so that these crowds can spread out a bit?



Even when the EB-5 was cranking, I never believed that West Bowl would happen.  How glorious it would have been, but the environmental extremists would never have allowed that to happen.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 22, 2017)

Hey, it was stupid busy everywhere Sat and Sun.

I was at Platty Sunday...they were parking cars on the access road a mile away from the base. There were even lift lines (short but they were there).


----------



## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Hey, it was stupid busy everywhere Sat and Sun.
> 
> I was at Platty Sunday...they were parking cars on the access road a mile away from the base. There were even lift lines (short but they were there).



Yea, Saturday was the same at Platty when I was there. First time I've ever seen cars parked so far down the access road and first time I've seen actual lift lines!


----------



## 56fish (Feb 23, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> He's been great all season providing feedback.  Where's the "like" button when you need it? :smile:


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 14, 2017)

The State of Vermont is being sued:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/14/jay-peak-investor-sues-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 14, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The State of Vermont is being sued:
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/14/jay-peak-investor-sues-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/



We all saw that coming.....


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----------



## Smellytele (Jun 14, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The State of Vermont is being sued:
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/14/jay-peak-investor-sues-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/



Their articles are very in depth but with my ADHD they are too long.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 14, 2017)

> The individual defendants are James Candido, *Brent Raymond* and Eugene Fullam, the former directors of the regional center



Finally.

I've been saying this for years (literally), if there's ever a serious investigation, this guy is going to be a key cog in unraveling it.   Yet nobody has even questioned him.  State of Vermont has willfully and intentionally covered this up and looked the other way rather than looking for answers.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 15, 2017)

Don't most, if not all, class action lawsuits get settled without admitting guilt? Not sure what this will result in other then costing the state a shit load of money.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Don't most, if not all, class action lawsuits get settled without admitting guilt? Not sure what this will result in other then costing the state a shit load of money.



These are civil actions, so guilt is not an issue.  It's all about $$$$.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Finally.
> 
> I've been saying this for years (literally), if there's ever a serious investigation, this guy is going to be a key cog in unraveling it.   Yet nobody has even questioned him.  State of Vermont has willfully and intentionally covered this up and looked the other way rather than looking for answers.



I am disappointed that $humlin is not named.  This is Exhibit A for trial.  Fast forward to 2:25 and in particular 2:41:



He obviously can't comment now because he is too busy teaching students about government at Harvard.

Moulton has also been sued.  She got "promoted" to President of VTC.  Unreal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2017)

http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=13414729&autostart=true


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 15, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I am disappointed that $humlin is not named. * This is Exhibit A for trial. * Fast forward to 2:25 and in particular 2:41:



Yikes.  That does make Shumlin look like an idiot.

And LOL at Stenger saying one of the reasons their EB-5 program is so successful is the "wonderful relationship" they have with the State of Vermont.   Yeah, so wonderful that FOIL requests should be raining from the heavens seeking emails from key persons at the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center.   

My prediction is that we're going to learn that those emails have "disappeared" in a Clinton'esque unfortunate hard-drive crash.  Or those computers were thrown out in a "routine" equipment upgrade and the emails were failed to be properly backed-up as is required, due to an "oversight", or some similar nonsensical excuse to keep the truth from the public (and keep their ***** out of jail).


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 16, 2017)

Quiros is playing nice: https://vtdigger.org/2017/06/15/sec-filing-quiros-discloses-150000-account-colombia/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 16, 2017)

Gosh, if I had a nickel for every time I lost or misplaced checks worth > $100,000.


----------



## Edd (Aug 2, 2017)

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-...s-over-investment-for-visa-program-1501717119


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 3, 2017)

Edd said:


> https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/u-...s-over-investment-for-visa-program-1501717119



I'm missing the connection to Jay Peak, other than it being an EB-5 project.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 3, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm missing the connection to Jay Peak, other than it being an EB-5 project.



I didn't see it either, but thought maybe I just didn't know enough about the Jay project to recognize the connection.


----------



## Edd (Aug 3, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm missing the connection to Jay Peak, other than it being an EB-5 project.



None so far as I know, but I recall the Kushner thing being referred to in one of these EB-5 threads, which is how I learned about it. Without checking, I was guessing it was this one.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 3, 2017)

Edd said:


> None so far as I know, but I recall the Kushner thing being referred to in one of these EB-5 threads, which is how I learned about it. Without checking, I was guessing it was this one.



I see.  Your post was political.  Respectfully, politics has taken over 99% of everything else on the internet.  I was hoping that it wouldn't happen here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2017)

Edd said:


> None so far as I know, but I recall the Kushner thing being referred to in one of these EB-5 threads, which is how I learned about it. Without checking, I was guessing it was this one.



Sure.  Kushner and company are using EB-5 to get lower interest loans/investments and to save a buck.  The issue is that these projects are in areas that are not at all poor.  As to Quiros, his motive for EB-5 was to, well, get money to use for however he wanted.  Both demonstrate how EB-5 is in need of reform.  As to that, I have two words: good luck.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 3, 2017)

I'd say EB-5 is in need of death by fire.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

No surprise.

https://m.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessag...-shutter-vermonts-scandal-plagued-eb-5-center


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----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2017)

https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/21/scott-feds-closing-states-eb-5-regional-center/


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----------



## tnt1234 (Aug 22, 2017)

Facebook tells me Jay is building some new things....employee housing and maybe a sports center?  

I guess the courts are comfortable with the operating forecasts?  Seems like good news....


----------



## dlague (Aug 22, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> Facebook tells me Jay is building some new things....employee housing and maybe a sports center?
> 
> I guess the courts are comfortable with the operating forecasts?  Seems like good news....



The rec center was already permitted so they are moving forward with it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 22, 2017)

> _*they will respond to the federal agency by arguing that Vermont's EB-5 center should be phased out instead of shut down immediately. That process could take 10 years*_



LOL.    Gotta' keep that taxpayer money gravy train running!   

More pockets to line.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 22, 2017)

It's over (mostly):

https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/22/quiros-wont-fight-sec-allegations-penalty-decided/


----------



## tnt1234 (Aug 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> It's over (mostly):
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/22/quiros-wont-fight-sec-allegations-penalty-decided/


That guy's got to end up in jail doesn't he?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 22, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> That guy's got to end up in jail doesn't he?



Yes, he's definitely going to jail.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 22, 2017)

His cooperation could be consistent with a fear of criminal prosecution and an attempt to mitigate a potential sentence.  

But who knows...


----------



## mbedle (Aug 23, 2017)

I am going to say that no, he is not going to be sentence to jail. That is off the table when he signed this settlement agreement. I don't think you typically see someone negotiating their own jail sentence, outside of a court. Maybe I am wrong.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 23, 2017)

Upon entry of the Judgment, the only issues remaining for the Court’s determination against Quiros will be the amount of disgorgement and prejudgment interest on disgorgement, and whether to impose a civil penalty and the amount of any penalty. The parties will continue to attempt to resolve those issues through negotiation.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I am going to say that no, he is not going to be sentence to jail. That is off the table when he signed this settlement agreement. I don't think you typically see someone negotiating their own jail sentence, outside of a court. Maybe I am wrong.





mbedle said:


> Upon entry of the Judgment, the only issues remaining for the Court’s determination against Quiros will be the amount of disgorgement and prejudgment interest on disgorgement, and whether to impose a civil penalty and the amount of any penalty. The parties will continue to attempt to resolve those issues through negotiation.



I don't particularly agree. The investigation by the US Attorney's office is still ongoing. The settlement now pertains to the SEC case. Criminal charges could still be filed once the US Attorney's office completes their investigation.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 23, 2017)

Agreed.  The settlement only applies to the civil case.  The criminal division of the DOJ is free to do whatever they want to do.  This type of scenario is quite common.

Now what the statute of limitations is, I do not know.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 23, 2017)

Wasn't aware of that (hence the reason I'm not a lawyer!). You would think that they would have already filed a criminal case against him. Maybe its standard practice to wait out the civil case before filing the criminal charges. I guess in these cases, they want to recover as much money as possible, prior to him spending funds on defense of the criminal charges. Below is what I think are the status of limitation for DC and Florida:

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

23-113

1st or 2nd degree murder: none; other felonies in 1st and 2nd degree: 6 yrs.; all other crimes: 3 yrs.; except if offense included official misconduct, fraud or breach of fiduciary trust: max. 9 yrs. felony, 6 yrs. misdemeanor 3 yrs.

FLORIDA

775.15

Felony that resulted in death: none; perjury in official proceeding that relates to prosecution of a capitol felony: none; Capital or life felony: none; 1st degree felony and 2nd degree felony for abuse or neglect of aged or disabled adult: 5 yrs.; others: 3 yrs.; other felony, violation of securities transaction: 5 yrs.; violation of environmental control: 5 yrs. of date of discovery; any offense which fraud or breach of fiduciary obligation is a material element: 3 yrs.; misconduct in public office: within 2 yrs. of leaving office or any above limit, whichever is greater; sexual offenses (battery, assault, intercourse under age 18): begins running at age 16 or when violation is reported, whichever is earlier.

Other 1st degree misdemeanors: 2 yrs.; 2nd degree and noncriminal violations: 1 yr.

Federal:
The statute of limitations is the time limit for filing charges against the defendant. The general federal statute of limitations for felonies stand for the proposition that the government can no longer file criminal charges for an offense once 5 years has passed. The federal statute of limitations is 18 USC 3282. This statue states:

Except as otherwise expressly provided by law, no person shall be prosecuted, tried, or punished for any offense, not capital, unless the indictment is found or the information is instituted within five years next after such offense shall have been committed.  .


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2017)

Probably nobody will be surprised by this.....

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...-vermont-failed-prevent-eb-5-fraud/590059001/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Probably nobody will be surprised by this.....



You're forgetting the half dozen or so posters who swore up and down that Vermont's EB-5 program was the safest in America because it was the only one that was government regulated.

Though they're easy to forget given they never return to this thread anymore.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're forgetting the half dozen or so posters who swore up and down that Vermont's EB-5 program was the safest in America because it was the only one that was government regulated.
> 
> Though they're easy to forget given they never return to this thread anymore.



The waves have been too awesome for some to come and post.


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Sep 4, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're forgetting the half dozen or so posters who swore up and down that Vermont's EB-5 program was the safest in America because it was the only one that was government regulated.
> 
> Though they're easy to forget given they never return to this thread anymore.



You say this sarcastically but in actuality the Jay peak EB-5 investors who were scammed are  getting their money back AND their lawyers paid!  (i guess it was safe)  Those that are still in the EB-5 program at Jay probably already have their 10 year visas  and I believe might have a deep pocket debtee after the resort is sold.

If this wasn't a government sponsored program they probably would be SOL.  I personally thought the investors (sophisticated i assume) knew the risks and valued the reward of the 10 year visa and still chose to participate. 

Receiver has done a great job in turning lemons into lemonade.


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 5, 2017)

How was the fraud discovered?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> How was the fraud discovered?



Enough investors complained to the SEC and VT that the Vermont regulators had to investigate.


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----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 5, 2017)

Very good read from JJ Toland about the day Jay and Burke were seized:

http://saminfo.com/current-issue/item/171-a-challenge-to-the-jay-way


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2017)

luvinjaycloud said:


> You say this sarcastically but in actuality *the Jay peak EB-5 investors who were scammed are  getting their money back AND their lawyers paid!  (i guess it was safe)  *



I'm not sure if you're saying this seriously or in jest.   

On the off chance you're serious, successfully defrauding an incompetent government out of hundreds of millions of dollars so massively that politicians feel they need to "make good" on it to cover their azzes and political careers, as well as the fact that that same government opened itself up to untold millions of dollars in legal jeopardy, is really not my definition of a "safe" program.   

Not to mention, FWIW, not all investors have been made whole (though I imagine they will be due to "azz covering" mode & legal threat).


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not sure if you're saying this seriously or in jest.
> 
> On the off chance you're serious, successfully defrauding an incompetent government out of hundreds of millions of dollars so massively that politicians feel they need to "make good" on it to cover their azzes and political careers, as well as the fact that that same government opened itself up to untold millions of dollars in legal jeopardy, is really not my definition of a "safe" program.
> 
> Not to mention, FWIW, not all investors have been made whole (though I imagine they will be due to "azz covering" mode & legal threat).



As far as I know, the AnCBio investors in Newport are the only ones getting all of their money back. But with no green cards since the project was never built.  The tramhouse lodge investors may have had a special deal also.

All the other investors will receive some amount of money once the resort is sold.   How much remains to be seen, but considering the money that disappeared, the fact that constructing management fees were ridiculously high, and that the asset values are likely worth less than construction costs, I doubt investors will get back a lot more than 30 cents on the dollar.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 7, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> As far as I know, the AnCBio investors in Newport are the only ones getting all of their money back. But with no green cards since the project was never built.  The tramhouse lodge investors may have had a special deal also.
> 
> All the other investors will receive some amount of money once the resort is sold.   How much remains to be seen, but considering the money that disappeared, the fact that constructing management fees were ridiculously high, and that the asset values are likely worth less than construction costs, I doubt investors will get back a lot more than 30 cents on the dollar.



I don't think I have read that the receiver plans to dissolve all of the limited partnerships and sell their assets free and clear. If they do that, I would assume that all of those investor will end up seeing Vermont and the Federal Government to recoup the reaming amounts. I actually don't think it would be legal to do that to the investors. I assumed that the new owners would be required to enter into new agreements with the investors honoring the original agreement's terms and conditions. I think it would be easier to find a buyer for a significantly lower priced resort only purchase, than one that is going to pay outright for the resort, plus all of the hotels, golf club, waterpark, etc (as you noted, are not worth near what the cost was to build them). The only other way that I see this happening is like the Tram House Lodge, they convert all of the LPs into loan (maybe secured loans) between the new owners and investors. That would be one hell of a loan for a company to take on.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not sure if you're saying this seriously or in jest.
> 
> On the off chance you're serious, successfully defrauding an incompetent government out of hundreds of millions of dollars so massively that politicians feel they need to "make good" on it to cover their azzes and political careers, as well as the fact that that same government opened itself up to untold millions of dollars in legal jeopardy, is really not my definition of a "safe" program.
> 
> Not to mention, FWIW, not all investors have been made whole (though I imagine they will be due to "azz covering" mode & legal threat).




When did Quiros defraud the government out of 100 or millions of dollars?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 7, 2017)

mbedle said:


> When did Quiros defraud the government out of 100 or millions of dollars?



Huh?


----------



## luvinjaycloud (Sep 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not sure if you're saying this seriously or in jest.
> 
> On the off chance you're serious, successfully defrauding an incompetent government out of hundreds of millions of dollars so massively that politicians feel they need to "make good" on it to cover their azzes and political careers, as well as the fact that that same government opened itself up to untold millions of dollars in legal jeopardy, is really not my definition of a "safe" program.
> 
> Not to mention, FWIW, not all investors have been made whole (though I imagine they will be due to "azz covering" mode & legal threat).



Oh there was a lot of "jest" in my reply , just like there was a lot of "azz covering" in yours..haha

My general point is these Jay Peak EB-5 investors will have done very well in a situation that completely blew up on them.  Maybe some won't  get their green cards, which this was what the program is all about, but those that won't get them, are getting whole.  In Madoff's ponzi scheme investors got less than half of their original investments plus forfeited all gains. Thats the way these things usually end up.
I think the remaining investors, Phases 2-5, will be in much better shape than they would have if this had been a traditional real world secured note obligation.

What you were right about from the beginning is that the EB-5 structured program doesn't really work in the long run for a lot of reasons.  That can be a whole other thread on its own.


----------



## yeggous (Sep 7, 2017)

FYI the pricing of the upcoming EICSL trip to Jay Peak has been announced. It includes a free season pass for participants. I'll keep that linked thread up to date with information including registration.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Huh?



Sorry for the miss quote - your wrote "On the off chance you're serious, successfully defrauding an incompetent government out of hundreds of millions of dollars so massively that..."

I was just asking where that amount came from. I was only aware of him defrauding the investors, which I thought was around 50 million.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 8, 2017)

yeggous said:


> *It includes a free season pass for participants.* I'll keep that linked thread up to date with information including registration.



That is such an almost unbelievably good deal that I had to take a double-take at it.  

Were I living in Vermont again, or somewhat local, I'd be all over that.



mbedle said:


> I was *just asking where that amount came from. I was only aware of him defrauding the investors, which I thought was around 50 million.*



The investors only became monetarily defrauded because it was the government that was literally defrauded, but the sum of misappropriated funds (which I don't think has ever been 100% categorized) is much larger than $50M and closer to $200M.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That is such an almost unbelievably good deal that I had to take a double-take at it.
> 
> Were I living in Vermont again, or somewhat local, I'd be all over that.
> 
> ...



Okay - I was taking defrauding as defined by the deliberate stealing of money from an entity. I understand you point that he deceived the government and the investors for the 200 million in misappropriated funds...


----------



## yeggous (Sep 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That is such an almost unbelievably good deal that I had to take a double-take at it.
> 
> Were I living in Vermont again, or somewhat local, I'd be all over that.



We've had this deal going for several years. I've tried to advertise it every year. I've gone a few times myself.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2017)

Gee, I wonder why they are so quick to move away from that awesomely run State Government EB-5 Center?  

https://vtdigger.org/2017/09/10/mou..._dc3c5486db-2faa3e0fd6-405558657#.WbbjDsiGO70


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Gee,* I wonder why they are so quick to move away from that awesomely run State Government EB-5 Center?  *



That's a solid blow to State of Vermont's recent desperate bid to not release its' claws from that never-ending cash pile & source of political job patronage.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 12, 2017)

I love the fact that Peak's has Raymond running their EB-5 projects...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2017)

Passholders are about to get a gift.....


----------



## Jcb890 (Sep 12, 2017)

Stickers and a hat?


----------



## dlague (Sep 12, 2017)




----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Stickers and a hat?



Yep.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 13, 2017)

Very cool if this is indeed the case.


----------



## Jcb890 (Sep 13, 2017)

I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but are you guys really this excited about a hat and stickers?  Am I missing something?


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 13, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I don't mean to be a dick or anything, but are you guys really this excited about a hat and stickers?  Am I missing something?



Nothing to do with the gift itself.  It's the idea behind it that I find cool.   I've had ski passes for half of my life from a few different hills, and this is first time any mountain is showing a bit of appreciation.  I think it's simple and efficient marketing.


----------



## Jcb890 (Sep 13, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Nothing to do with the gift itself.  It's the idea behind it that I find cool.   I've had ski passes for half of my life from a few different hills, and this is first time any mountain is showing a bit of appreciation.  I think it's simple and efficient marketing.


Oh okay.  That is a good point and I do agree from that standpoint.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 13, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Nothing to do with the gift itself.  It's the idea behind it that I find cool.   I've had ski passes for half of my life from a few different hills, and this is first time any mountain is showing a bit of appreciation.  I think it's simple and efficient marketing.



Sugarbush sent out stickers last year to passholders...


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush sent out stickers last year to passholders...



Free marketing just like the free stickers at the skier services desk at most ski areas.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 13, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Free marketing just like the free stickers at the skier services desk at most ski areas.



Yea...although I thought the color choice was a bit on the ugly side for the passholder ones they mailed (they were bright red with white lettering). Probably buried on my desk somewhere at the moment.

The free stickers (and posters) that SB has at their guest services desk are nice though. The posters look great framed hanging up in my condo!


----------



## tumbler (Sep 13, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush sent out stickers last year to passholders...



Those were downright embarassing.  "Sugarbush Passholder" Made it look like a special parking sticker or something.  We actually laugh everytime we see one on a car.  Just get the snowmaking right and the lifts running and I'm good.  And the taps working.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 13, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Those were downright embarassing.  "Sugarbush Passholder" Made it look like a special parking sticker or something.  We actually laugh everytime we see one on a car.



Hah...I thought exactly the same thing! Hence the reason it is buried on my desk and not on my truck. I have a Sugarbush sticker on my truck, but it is a nice looking one.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 13, 2017)

Did they always use that slogan about the strong tree?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 13, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Those were downright embarassing.  *"Sugarbush Passholder" *Made it look like a special parking sticker or something.  We actually laugh everytime we see one on a car.



It reminds me of the marketing playbook of sports teams whereby they try to give extra ways to overtly point out who is a season ticket holder (STH), so that that individual (presumably with low self-esteem) will feel important or more worth, thus more likely to renew (or attract other potential buyers who also want to be overtly known and viewed as a STH).   So teams now give the STH these lanyards that they wear around their neck, or other obvious things to identify who is/isnt a STH, which serve no purpose other than to instantly identify the person as a STH.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 25, 2017)

Alleged kickbacks.  Shocking, I know.

https://vtdigger.org/2017/09/25/law...kickbacks-for-each-new-investor/#.WcjuhFuPLIU


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 25, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Alleged kickbacks.  Shocking, I know.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/09/25/law...kickbacks-for-each-new-investor/#.WcjuhFuPLIU



Jeez....can't imagine how these guys sleep at night.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2017)

> The investors say *state officials with the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center, who were responsible for overseeing Jay Peak, never took action to investigate allegations about the so-called “finders fees,” which were brought to their attention in 2012.*



ROFL.

Is that Brent Raymond guy still employed at Mount Snow?   If so, and I'm SKIS brass, I look for a real quiet way to lay him off, thank him for his service, and say, good luck in your future endeavors.



> Megan Shafritz, *the lead lawyer for the state, has said Vermont officials have “absolute immunity” in the case*, which protects them “from the burdens of discovery and litigation generally.”



Life sure must be nice when you control all the rifles & bayonets.



> *Unless the court allows discovery*, Barr says, *the truth will never come out about how state officials allowed Stenger and Jay Peak owner Ariel Quiros to defraud 890 EB-5 investors and ultimately helped to cover up the fraud.*



Oh.....so basically discovery will not be allowed probably. LOL


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2017)

This just keeps on giving.  Unreal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2017)

https://vtdigger.org/2017/09/27/sco..._dc3c5486db-192424aab9-405558657#.Wcz-mEFMGEc


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----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2017)

> Gov. Phil Scott says he has not ruled out whether there should be a special prosecutor to look into alleged EB-5 fraud in the Northeast Kingdom involving Jay Peak and related companies.



Would the special prosecutor be a guy from Vermont with a degree in 15th Century Greek Philosophy, or an actual real-life lawyer?

Important question given the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center was run by people without any backgrounds necessary for high level auditing/accounting/finance jobs.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Would the special prosecutor be a guy from Vermont with a degree in 15th Century Greek Philosophy, or an actual real-life lawyer?
> 
> Important question given the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center was run by people without any backgrounds necessary for high level auditing/accounting/finance jobs.



Actually....someone can take the Bar in Vermont "Abe Lincoln" style without a law degree. So sure they just would need to be admitted 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 28, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Actually....someone can take the Bar in Vermont "Abe Lincoln" style without a law degree.



I didn't know that was a 21st century thing.

What would you ballpark the odds are of a fairly smart guy/gal spending a few thousand dollars on books, investing some time, and passing the bar DIY-style; pretty low?


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## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I didn't know that was a 21st century thing.
> 
> What would you ballpark the odds are of a fairly smart guy/gal spending a few thousand dollars on books, investing some time, and passing the bar DIY-style; pretty low?



A relatively small number of folks do it, but they generally pass.  That is because these folks generally do one year of law school then go on to do an apprenticeship with a lawyer in order to cover the areas that are tested.  There was a recent Vermont Supreme Court Justice who was admitted this way.  The big problem: the license is not really transferrable to another state because the wide majority of states (48 I think) require a J.D. to take the bar or be admitted.

That aside, a special prosecutor would be a good idea but you are correct that I don't know if there has been one before or they know what to do.  There is a new AG which is good because the last one left much to be desired.  The Governor is spot on: Vermont's credibility is completely shot.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 30, 2017)

We are getting far astray here, but I just wanted to point out that a law office study bar license is portable to NH and ME.  Those states have special reciprocity agreements with VT.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 30, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That aside, a special prosecutor would be a good idea but you are correct that I don't know if there has been one before or they know what to do.  There is a new AG which is good because the last one left much to be desired. * The Governor is spot on: Vermont's credibility is completely shot.*



Wasn't it already though?   I think IL, NJ, CA, and VT are understood to be some of the most corrupt states in America. 

 This Jay Peak EB-5 situation is become such a widely understood joke that I think they 100% need a special prosecutor.  When even the typical dumb, fat, happy, uninformed resident has learned what's going on, government has a "problem", and typically the only time government really cares about something, is when it's the government itself that has said problem.  So it wouldn't shock me if an independent investigation gets underway.  

My question then would be, in a place like Vermont, would the independent investigation really be honest and independent, or a shill for Vermont's government?


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## mbedle (Sep 30, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wasn't it already though?   I think IL, NJ, CA, and VT are understood to be some of the most corrupt states in America.
> 
> This Jay Peak EB-5 situation is become such a widely understood joke that I think they 100% need a special prosecutor.  When even the typical dumb, fat, happy, uninformed resident has learned what's going on, government has a "problem", and typically the only time government really cares about something, is when it's the government itself that has said problem.  So it wouldn't shock me if an independent investigation gets underway.
> 
> My question then would be, in a place like Vermont, would the independent investigation really be honest and independent, or a shill for Vermont's government?



You got IL right, but based on convictions of public officials from 1976 - 2008, NJ, CA and VT are not in the top 10 most corrupt states. In fact, VT falls in the bottom 8. That was based on a Forbes' article. A couple of other studies also place VT pretty low on the list. 

Based on what Sethi got for his $160 million EB-5 fraud case, it doesn't look like Quiros is going to be sent to jail for a really long time. Sethi was convicted back in May to only 3 years in prison, 9 million in restitution.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 30, 2017)

Does the Forbes article use a per capita rating?


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## mbedle (Oct 1, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Does the Forbes article use a per capita rating?



On a per capital bases, Vermont ranks No. 42, still in the lowest 10.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2017)

mbedle said:


> You got IL right, but based on convictions of public officials from 1976 - 2008, NJ, CA and VT are not in the top 10 most corrupt states. In fact, VT falls in the bottom 8. That was based on a Forbes' article. A couple of other studies also place VT pretty low on the list.



I don't consider "convictions of public officials" to be a good basis of state corruption.  In fact, intuitively I would think that would be quite the opposite.   God knows we are teeming with politicians who should be in jail, yet somehow never seem to make it there.  We'll see if Senator Menendez goes to jail.  Caught red-handed, I bet he either gets off or gets some light 2-year sentence in a country club.


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## benski (Oct 2, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I don't consider "convictions of public officials" to be a good basis of state corruption.  In fact, intuitively I would think that would be quite the opposite.   God knows we are teeming with politicians who should be in jail, yet somehow never seem to make it there.  We'll see if Senator Menendez goes to jail.  Caught red-handed, I bet he either gets off or gets some light 2-year sentence in a country club.



What do you want to use? how much you disagree with there political idea.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 2, 2017)

benski said:


> What do you want to use? how much you disagree with there political idea.



LOL - that was good one...


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 2, 2017)

Was up at Jay this weekend and noticed a few improvements going on:

They are in the process of taking the communication lines for the Flyer off the towers and putting them underground to make the Flyer more reliable. This is a significant project since it requires burying a conduit the entire length of the flyer.

The lower bullwhell is missing off the Jet. Presumably to have the main bearing replaced.

The have added snow-making to the trail that cuts across from lower angles wiggle to the jet. This should eliminate the mud walk for late season skiing.

I guess the receiver is trying to get Jay in top shape for a sale.


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## fbrissette (Oct 2, 2017)

Have also heard that they want to be more agressive with opening and closing dates.


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## Jully (Oct 2, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Have also heard that they want to be more agressive with opening and closing dates.



Closing dates you say? That could be interesting!


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## Jcb890 (Oct 2, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Have also heard that they want to be more agressive with opening and closing dates.


How about being more aggressive with actually running the lifts on a daily basis?  It doesn't matter if they're open 365 days a year and not spinning the lifts.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 2, 2017)

benski said:


> *What do you want to use?* how much you disagree with there political idea.



Nothing.  I don't see how or why you'd quantify or need to quantify something like that. 

 I think people have a general sense of whether a state is corrupt or not.  Unless you want to make the statement that government in itself is inherently corrupt, which is fine, but there are different levels of that.  But with whatever metrics you do or do not use, I can assure people, that any "survey" or "list" that doesn't place New Jersey high on the political corruption list is even less valid than ski lists that rank Holiday Valley a top-5 ski destination.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 2, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> *How about being more aggressive with actually running the lifts on a daily basis?*  It doesn't matter if they're open 365 days a year and not spinning the lifts.



LOL.   There's some anger in that zinger.   Sounds like someone's annoyed by phantom wind holds.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> LOL.   There's some anger in that zinger.   Sounds like someone's annoyed by phantom wind holds.



Those money, err, wind holds are still an issue?  No surprise at all.


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## dlague (Oct 3, 2017)

Well they already have season pass holders money, then on the weekdays not many lift ticket purchasers equals wind hold.


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## the_awesome (Oct 4, 2017)

dlague said:


> Well they already have season pass holders money, then on the weekdays not many lift ticket purchasers equals wind hold.



This ends up driving away guests in the long run, especially as word gets spread. I take a 1 or 2 VT (northern) trips a season with a group of friends midweek and usually stay near/in the NEK to hit Jay, then the bush and smuggs (WM coupons)...the last 2 years the tram never ran once and the flyer was closed 90+% of the time, it's both frustrating and ridiculous...will skip it for Stowe this year.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2017)

the_awesome said:


> This ends up driving away guests in the long run, especially as word gets spread. I take a 1 or 2 VT (northern) trips a season with a group of friends midweek and usually stay near/in the NEK to hit Jay, then the bush and smuggs (WM coupons)...the last 2 years the tram never ran once and the flyer was closed 90+% of the time, it's both frustrating and ridiculous...will skip it for Stowe this year.



Funny.  They have been doing those windholds for years.  Granted, Jay gets A LOT of bad weather and wind.  And FWIW Sugarbush had a tendency to have a lot of windholds as well.


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## Jcb890 (Oct 4, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> LOL.   There's some anger in that zinger.   Sounds like someone's annoyed by phantom wind holds.


I'm pretty much done going to Jay unless they change the way they operate.  I understand not running lifts when it isn't safe and I understand why mountains don't run lifts sometimes... but Jay seems to be the one place that will decide to operate the Tram or not based on visitors and money.  It is a shame because they have great terrain and some of the best snow conditions in New England usually.



thetrailboss said:


> Those money, err, wind holds are still an issue?  No surprise at all.


Sadly, yes.



dlague said:


> Well they already have season pass holders money, then on the weekdays not many lift ticket purchasers equals wind hold.


Unfortunately this seems to be true.



the_awesome said:


> This ends up driving away guests in the long run, especially as word gets spread. I take a 1 or 2 VT (northern) trips a season with a group of friends midweek and usually stay near/in the NEK to hit Jay, then the bush and smuggs (WM coupons)...the last 2 years the tram never ran once and the flyer was closed 90+% of the time, it's both frustrating and ridiculous...will skip it for Stowe this year.


Well, there's you and your group of friends and me in just this thread.  I have a group of 2 friends I normally meet for a long weekend up at Jay also... I pushed them to do Sugarloaf this past season and this season I think Jay will be off the list.  One of them drives up all the way from Virginia and will spend the week up at Jay, but even he cut his trip short last year leaving a day early.  I only wound up going up for 2 days, but they were up at Jay the whole week leading up to Christmas and the Tram was still broken from the off-season or whatever.  It was supposed to be fixed the week prior, then every day they'd ask someone at Jay when it would be done and hear "hopefully tomorrow" until finally on Wednesday someone told the truth, that they were aiming to have the Tram fixed and running for the weekend and Christmas crowd.

I would have to imagine we aren't the only ones who feel this way.  When we were there they also refused to run Flyer last year.  For what?  If the Tram isn't going to run, the Flyer should run.  If Jay was like 30 minutes or an hour away, I could see going and being content riding the terrain off The Jet all day.  But, for a 4 or 4.5 hour drive each way which often involves a hotel room as well?  Not a chance.


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## Jcb890 (Oct 4, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Funny.  They have been doing those windholds for years.  Granted, Jay gets A LOT of bad weather and wind.  And FWIW Sugarbush had a tendency to have a lot of windholds as well.


Wind holds are one thing... when there's actual wind.  But, when Jay puts the Tram "on wind hold" sometimes it will coincidentally be on a day with low crowds and like ~10 mph winds.  Rarely do you see mountains shut down their most popular lift for an entire day because at one point in the day there was a high wind gust.  You'll see it if the day is going to be 30+ MPH sustained all day or something, but Jay seems to keep the Tram on wind hold even when wind isn't there or has passed.


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Funny.  They have been doing those windholds for years.  Granted, Jay gets A LOT of bad weather and wind.  And FWIW Sugarbush had a tendency to have a lot of windholds as well.



I can't speak for Jay, but at SB, I'm not about to question their use of windholds. Anytime I've seen SB have a windhold, it has been legitimate. I've been on a lift at SB right before they closed it for a windhold and trust me, it was one of the scariest lift rides ever. And yet when I got back to the base, there was virtually no wind. That wind can be brutal at times in one spot and nothing in another so people tend to think just because there's no wind where they are standing that it can't possibly be windy enough somewhere else to close a lift.  SB does seem to have more windholds than some other mountains at times, but each mountain is unique with the way the wind blows and how the lifts are impacted by wind. It is what it is.


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## fbrissette (Oct 4, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Wind holds are one thing... when there's actual wind.  But, when Jay puts the Tram "on wind hold" sometimes it will coincidentally be on a day with low crowds and like ~10 mph winds.  Rarely do you see mountains shut down their most popular lift for an entire day because at one point in the day there was a high wind gust.  You'll see it if the day is going to be 30+ MPH sustained all day or something, but Jay seems to keep the Tram on wind hold even when wind isn't there or has passed.



I'll first state that I rarely ski on week days with the exception of holiday weeks and pow days.   I've skied an average of 45 days per year at Jay Peak over the past 8 years.   I'm a big fan of closed lifts since I'm always willing to hike or skins. Wind holds are a drag to most, to me it's an opportunity.   I cannot remember a single of those hiking days where the wind wasn't howling on top with lifts on wind hold.   In several instances it was mind boggling how bad it is up there compared to the bottom.   I have noticed however a few instances where winds significantly decreased in the afternoon and the lift would not reopen.  I assume they have some sort of time limit where it does not make economical sense to recall lifties.  

I am not saying Jay Peak ain't lying on some low-traffic week days.   It's very possible they do.   I have not witnessed blatant lying  (i.e. wind holds with no wind on top)


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## mbedle (Oct 4, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I can't speak for Jay, but at SB, I'm not about to question their use of windholds. Anytime I've seen SB have a windhold, it has been legitimate. I've been on a lift at SB right before they closed it for a windhold and trust me, it was one of the scariest lift rides ever. And yet when I got back to the base, there was virtually no wind. That wind can be brutal at times in one spot and nothing in another so people tend to think just because there's no wind where they are standing that it can't possibly be windy enough somewhere else to close a lift.  SB does seem to have more windholds than some other mountains at times, but each mountain is unique with the way the wind blows and how the lifts are impacted by wind. It is what it is.



I got to agree with this, unless you are actually taking wind speed measurements 30, 50 or 100 feet up in the air, its not really possible to tell whats going on in the path of a lift or tram.


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## Jcb890 (Oct 4, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> I'll first state that I rarely ski on week days with the exception of holiday weeks and pow days.   I've skied an average of 45 days per year at Jay Peak over the past 8 years.   *I'm a big fan of closed lifts since I'm always willing to hike or skins. Wind holds are a drag to most, to me it's an opportunity.*   I cannot remember a single of those hiking days where the wind wasn't howling on top with lifts on wind hold.   In several instances it was mind boggling how bad it is up there compared to the bottom.   I have noticed however a few instances where winds significantly decreased in the afternoon and the lift would not reopen.  I assume they have some sort of time limit where it does not make economical sense to recall lifties.
> 
> I am not saying Jay Peak ain't lying on some low-traffic week days.   It's very possible they do.   I have not witnessed blatant lying  (i.e. wind holds with no wind on top)


Kudos to you, but you are certainly in the minority.  Sure, I'll hike if conditions warrant it and I'm in the mood.  But, to suggest hiking as an alternate to actually taking a lift that should be running... that's not comparable.


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> I have noticed however a few instances where winds significantly decreased in the afternoon and the lift would not reopen.  I assume they have some sort of time limit where it does not make economical sense to recall lifties.



I know at SB if an upper mountain lift can't be opened by somewhere between 12 and 1, then it will typically stay closed the rest of the day even if the wind dies down. Like you said, there's a point where with the limited amount of hours left in a day it just doesn't make economical (and logistical) sense any more to open the lift.


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## tumbler (Oct 4, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Funny.  They have been doing those windholds for years.  Granted, Jay gets A LOT of bad weather and wind.  And FWIW Sugarbush had a tendency to have a lot of windholds as well.



Yes, this is true at SB but most of it is in the past.  They used to use wind holds to cover for mechanical issues


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## thetrailboss (Oct 4, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Yes, this is true at SB but most of it is in the past.  They used to use wind holds to cover for mechanical issues



Figured it was that and money.  It is true that a lot of SB's lifts on the upper mountain are exposed.  The same for Jay, but I know that Jay had a tendency not to run lifts when they could.  

And in other news:  https://vtdigger.org/2017/10/03/state-uscis-dont-shutter-eb-5-center-just-yet/#.WdVhTWhSw2x


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 5, 2017)

I think what he's trying to say is when he has hiked, and with the Tram subsequently down, the nuance of upper mtn winds v lower mtn winds was remarkable.  We've talked about this before and I'll say it again, we've never made a decision to shut a lift down predicated on pure economics, not since I've been here at least.  I can't imagine a scenario where we would.  You're certainly entitled to your opinion and, as such, it's no business of mine.



Jcb890 said:


> Kudos to you, but you are certainly in the minority.  Sure, I'll hike if conditions warrant it and I'm in the mood.  But, to suggest hiking as an alternate to actually taking a lift that should be running... that's not comparable.


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## Jcb890 (Oct 5, 2017)

Steve@jpr said:


> I think what he's trying to say is when he has hiked, and with the Tram subsequently down, the nuance of upper mtn winds v lower mtn winds was remarkable.  We've talked about this before and I'll say it again, we've never made a decision to shut a lift down predicated on pure economics, not since I've been here at least.  I can't imagine a scenario where we would.  You're certainly entitled to your opinion and, as such, it's no business of mine.


Hi Steve,

I really do appreciate your responses and candor, as always.  You seem like a stand-up guy and I do not think I have been, but if I have been a dick to you personally at all, I apologize.  I really do want Jay to do well and want to go and enjoy it, its just tough sometimes.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 5, 2017)

Regardless of why the lifts get shut down, I appreciate not wanting to take the risk since it happens much more frequently at Jay than other resorts that you can choose.  That's just the simple reality of the situation up there.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 5, 2017)

VT resorts sure.  Sugarloaf waves Hi as the overall champion of wind holds in New England.  Jay is a distant second.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 5, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> VT resorts sure.  Sugarloaf waves Hi as the overall champion of wind holds in New England.  Jay is a distant second.



Most definitely.


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## Steve@jpr (Oct 5, 2017)

Never.  I've encountered more than my fair share of them, especially in the last 2 years, but you haven't made any list.  All good.  I appreciate your perspective as always-just giving you mine.



Jcb890 said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> I really do appreciate your responses and candor, as always.  You seem like a stand-up guy and I do not think I have been, but if I have been a dick to you personally at all, I apologize.  I really do want Jay to do well and want to go and enjoy it, its just tough sometimes.


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## Jully (Oct 5, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I can't speak for Jay, but at SB, I'm not about to question their use of windholds. Anytime I've seen SB have a windhold, it has been legitimate. I've been on a lift at SB right before they closed it for a windhold and trust me, it was one of the scariest lift rides ever. And yet when I got back to the base, there was virtually no wind. That wind can be brutal at times in one spot and nothing in another so people tend to think just because there's no wind where they are standing that it can't possibly be windy enough somewhere else to close a lift.  SB does seem to have more windholds than some other mountains at times, but each mountain is unique with the way the wind blows and how the lifts are impacted by wind. It is what it is.



+1 same thing at sugarloaf. I've been pushed uphill on the summit by wind and its a gorgeous bluebird day at the base lodge with people kicking it on the beach.


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## mister moose (Oct 6, 2017)

Here's a handy way to gauge how windy it's going to be.  These are aviation winds aloft forecasts.  The first two digits are the wind direction (degrees true to nearest 10) The second two digits is the wind speed in knots (15% higher than MPH)  The third 2 digits are the forecast temperature (degrees C)

The nearest station to any northern VT ski area is PLB, or Plattsburg, NY.  

So right now, looking at PLB, about halfway down the page, at 6,000 feet you see the winds are 2825+03
This means the winds are 280 degrees (almost due west) at 25 knots (29mph) with a temp of 3C (37F)

You can also look at ALB, which is Albany, NY.  More of a factor for Mt Snow and Stratton.


https://www.aviationweather.gov/windtemp/data?region=bos

There is a drop down menu at the top for which time period you want to look at.  It's in UTC, or Greenwich time, which is indicated by a Z after the time, 24 hour military style.  In the winter we are on standard time which is 5 hours earier, so 14Z is 0900 local time.

Obviously Jay Peak is not at 6,000 feet, so a little interpolation is needed.  You can average the winds at 3 and 6.  Also, take a look at how steep the gradient is, ie how much faster the winds are at 9 and 12.  When winds at higher altitudes are really racing, they generate vertical shear type turbulence, and these produce the gusts we've all felt.  Very little gradient = very little gusts.

Last disclaimer is the muddling the mountains do to the averages.  _This is a guide, not a guarantee._

So if the Tram is down for wind holds and the winds aloft are 10kts, give Steve a call.  If they're 50 kts, expect the Tram to be dicey.

Notice the temp at 12,000 feet is -03C, or 26.5F.  If we had the elevation of the Rockies we could be making snow right now!


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## machski (Oct 6, 2017)

mister moose said:


> Here's a handy way to gauge how windy it's going to be.  These are aviation winds aloft forecasts.  The first two digits are the wind direction (degrees true to nearest 10) The second two digits is the wind speed in knots (15% higher than MPH)  The third 2 digits are the forecast temperature (degrees C)
> 
> The nearest station to any northern VT ski area is PLB, or Plattsburg, NY.
> 
> ...


For bonus points, decode this one.  7823-06

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Oct 10, 2017)

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Ca...s-be-sued-over-the-Kingdom-Con-450318273.html

I agree with this:  



> "The state promised to administer, manage, oversee the federal and state requirements of this program," Barr said. "And they did none of that."



But not this:



> But Vermont Attorney General T.J. Donovan says that suit should be tossed.
> 
> "This is a wild goose chase. This is a waste of resources. Let us focus on the case that really matters and that is the state's case against Bill Stenger and Ariel Quiros," said Donovan, D-Vt. Attorney General.



Again, cue up the Shumlin video with him bragging about how Vermont "audits" projects.


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## Not Sure (Oct 10, 2017)

machski said:


> For bonus points, decode this one.  7823-06
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Park forecast 780 23kts -6


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## machski (Oct 11, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Park forecast 780 23kts -6



Nice try, this is how it is coded when wind speeds are 100+ kts.  subtract 50 to get the direction (78-50=28(0)) and add 100 for the speed (100+23=123kts).


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## VTKilarney (Oct 23, 2017)

Some extremely serious allegations have been raised against the State of Vermont:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/10/23/investors-ask-judge-rule-receivership-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/


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## SIKSKIER (Oct 26, 2017)

Little off topic but I see Jay has a new website and I'm not a fan.


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## mbedle (Oct 26, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Little off topic but I see Jay has a new website and I'm not a fan.



What I like to call a little to much fluff and not the core business information visitors need to have readily available. The home screen should at least show a summary of the weather and trail status or have a direct link to them.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2017)

It wouldnt be so bad if the fonts on everything werent so *BIG* and so *BOLD*.

I feel like my eyes need a nap after perusing the new website.


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## cdskier (Oct 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> What I like to call a little to much fluff and not the core business information visitors need to have readily available. The home screen should at least show a summary of the weather and trail status or have a direct link to them.



Right...unless I'm missing something on Jay's new site it is 3 clicks to get to a trail/weather/condition report (so much for "Find it Fast" as the home page says!). For comparison, Sugarbush, Stowe, and Killington all have 1 click from the home page to the condition report (plus an overview of the current status right on the home page).


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## Edd (Oct 27, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Little off topic but I see Jay has a new website and I'm not a fan.



They changed it radically like 5-6 years ago. It went from being highly functional to very pretty-looking shit. I don’t even want to look this time.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 27, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Little off topic but I see Jay has a new website and I'm not a fan.



As a high-end web dev this is interesting.

Their previous site I actually considered one of the best in the industry. Maybe not objectively so, but I liked it. What they replaced it with is clearly below par of their previous game, and makes me wonder why they replaced a perfectly good website at all?


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## tnt1234 (Oct 27, 2017)

I agree - old site was perfect.  New one feels clunky.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Oct 27, 2017)

Too much drilling down to get to anything useful...


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## LONGBOARDR (Oct 27, 2017)

Screw the website, snow dropping on the higher elevations here today.
In the barn prepping the boards, having a couple heady toppers with my season pass hat and celebrating my 25th year at Jay


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## deadheadskier (Oct 28, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> As a high-end web dev this is interesting.
> 
> Their previous site I actually considered one of the best in the industry. Maybe not objectively so, but I liked it. What they replaced it with is clearly below par of their previous game, and makes me wonder why they replaced a perfectly good website at all?


Probably a new marketing person wanting to make their mark. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## benski (Oct 28, 2017)

I agree the new website is a step down. I see they got rid of there interactive trail map. Its a shame, since if you are not familiar with trail names the lists and statistics are hard to understand if you are not familiar with the ski area and don't know how many are connectors really short...


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 28, 2017)

benski said:


> I agree the new website is a step down. I see they got rid of there interactive trail map. Its a shame, since if you are not familiar with trail names the lists and statistics are hard to understand if you are not familiar with the ski area and don't know how many are connectors really short...



They should bring back the interactive map. Even as someone familiar with the trails it makes it really quick and easy to see what's open. Clearly an asset.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2017)

benski said:


> I agree the new website is a step down. I see they got rid of there interactive trail map. Its a shame, since if you are not familiar with trail names the lists and statistics are hard to understand if you are not familiar with the ski area and don't know how many are connectors really short...



Agreed, that was the best part of the Jay Peak website.   

And I agree with the other poster that the other, other, Jay Peak website from years ago was actually the best website they had, and that the prior website just looked "prettier", but was actually less functional and useful.


----------



## Jcb890 (Oct 31, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Agreed, that was the best part of the Jay Peak website.
> 
> And I agree with the other poster that the other, other, Jay Peak website from years ago was actually the best website they had, and that the prior website just looked "prettier", but was actually less functional and useful.


I thought the interactive trail guide was a good idea, but never seemed to function well enough on Jay's site.  For example, Killington's interactive trail guide actually works.


----------



## Jully (Oct 31, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I thought the interactive trail guide was a good idea, but never seemed to function well enough on Jay's site.  For example, Killington's interactive trail guide actually works.



The Jay Peak interactive map I thought sucked. It might be better than no interactive map, but just barely IMO. Many resorts have awesome interactive maps, Loon, Sunday River, and Killington, all come to mind as being intuitive and easy to read. Jay's seemed to be their normal PDF map that someone took an eraser too in photoshop. There's better options out there nowadays (there may not have been when Jay first released that map though). I can see why Jay tossed it. 

Wouldn't shock me if they release something much better in a few months.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> *I thought the interactive trail guide was a good idea, but never seemed to function well enough on Jay's site.*  For example, Killington's interactive trail guide actually works.



I think any interactive trail map > any regular trail map, so I think Jay's online map was a winner in that regard.  

That said, yes, once we begin ranking interactive trail maps against other interactive trail maps, Jay Peak's was not very good.


----------



## Jcb890 (Oct 31, 2017)

Jully said:


> The Jay Peak interactive map I thought sucked. It might be better than no interactive map, but just barely IMO. Many resorts have awesome interactive maps, Loon, Sunday River, and Killington, all come to mind as being intuitive and easy to read. Jay's seemed to be their normal PDF map that someone took an eraser too in photoshop. There's better options out there nowadays (there may not have been when Jay first released that map though). I can see why Jay tossed it.
> 
> Wouldn't shock me if they release something much better in a few months.


I was trying a change for a difference and trying to be more optimistic even with my negative comments.  I agree with you that the Jay Peak map sucked royally.  It was borderline useless.



BenedictGomez said:


> I think any interactive trail map > any regular trail map, so I think Jay's online map was a winner in that regard.
> 
> That said, yes, once we begin ranking interactive trail maps against other interactive trail maps, Jay Peak's was not very good.


Ehhh, when its not really useful, I'd rather just rely on a regular trail map.  Jay's old interactive trail map might have been slightly more useful than a static PDF of a map, but just barely.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2017)

I think Orford has the slickest interactive trail map

http://www.orford.com/ski/en/the-station/trails-map/


----------



## benski (Oct 31, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I think Orford has the slickest interactive trail map
> 
> http://www.orford.com/ski/en/the-station/trails-map/



Mammoth for the win. 

https://www.mammothmountain.com/winter/mountain-information/mountain-information/trail-map


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2017)

benski said:


> Mammoth for the win.
> 
> https://www.mammothmountain.com/winter/mountain-information/mountain-information/trail-map



What browser are you using?  On Chrome the functionality of that map is a total disaster


----------



## cdskier (Oct 31, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> What browser are you using?  On Chrome the functionality of that map is a total disaster



On Firefox it doesn't even seem to fully load...


----------



## Jully (Oct 31, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> What browser are you using?  On Chrome the functionality of that map is a total disaster



I think it's a step in a really cool direction though.
I think a map like mammoth' s would actually really benefit a place like Jay. Jay, more than most eastern resorts, skis bigger and has cooler terrain than a traditional trail map really captures, IMO.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2017)

Jully said:


> I think it's a step in a really cool direction though.
> I think a map like mammoth' s would actually really benefit a place like Jay. Jay, more than most eastern resorts, skis bigger and has cooler terrain than a traditional trail map really captures, IMO.



that's why I like the Orford one so much.  It does a decent job of showing the terrain and navigating around the different peaks and mountain faces in addition to navigating well for each trail and lift.  You can scroll over the trail on the map and have the name pop up with open/closed status or you can scroll on the list on the side and accomplish the same thing.   I think a similar style map would work great for Jay.  Just break it up between Tramside, Bonnie area and Stateside and zoom in for the individual lift and trail status.


----------



## benski (Nov 1, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> What browser are you using?  On Chrome the functionality of that map is a total disaster



Chrome. It worked fine but I did notice the fan turned on. Now that I think about it my last laptop would not have run that page very well.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 1, 2017)

That Orford interactive trail map was cool, I did get a message on Firefox that it could slow my browser, but it wasnt too bad.

The Mammoth interactive trail map was the best I've ever seen, but it took a while to load and my laptop's fan turned on, which I assume means it was working hard.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2017)

A major development in the case against Quiros:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/11/16/quiros-sec-lawyers-agree-damages-details-still-secret/


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2017)

Even more interesting....another sign that the Vermont EB-5 office is soon to be dead:

https://vtdigger.org/2017/11/16/mou..._dc3c5486db-fa14bb633b-405558657#.Wg8EMUqnG70


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2018)

The latest.  As predicted, some investors are being denied green cards because their projects have not created enough jobs.  The Receiver seems to think that this is based on "outdated data" and that the USCIS will ultimately reconsider.

https://vtdigger.org/2018/01/11/rec...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-99d916fb83-405558657


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 2, 2018)

Quiros settles for 81 millions.  Stenger pays 75k.


https://vtdigger.org/2018/02/02/quiros-settles-81-million-sec-eb-5-fraud-jay-peak-resort/


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2018)

slap on the wrist for bill, eh?

I'm excited to ski jay tomorrow for the first and maybe only time this season


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2018)

fbrissette said:


> Quiros settles for 81 millions.  Stenger pays 75k.
> 
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/02/02/quiros-settles-81-million-sec-eb-5-fraud-jay-peak-resort/



....and Quiros turns over the resorts to the SEC.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> slap on the wrist for bill, eh?
> 
> I'm excited to ski jay tomorrow for the first and maybe only time this season



That’s hard to say.  It’s possible that Stenger’s penalty is going to sting much more than Quiros’ when you factor in their net worth.  

So what are the predictions from here?  Will the resorts sell together?  If not, will Burke have a serious bidder?

I’ve always said that Intrawest should buy Jay.  A Tremblant-Jay pass would corner the Montreal market.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Feb 2, 2018)

im surprised one of the major players hasn't snatched up jay/burke yet. its plug and play. brand new hotels, tons of condos, the ice facility and waterpark, a loyal skier base. i just hope its not vail.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im surprised one of the major players hasn't snatched up jay/burke yet. its plug and play. brand new hotels, tons of condos, the ice facility and waterpark, a loyal skier base. i just hope its not vail.



They aren't really on the market as of yet.  Soon though!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> That’s hard to say.  It’s possible that Stenger’s penalty is going to sting much more than Quiros’ when you factor in their net worth.
> 
> So what are the predictions from here?  Will the resorts sell together?  If not, will Burke have a serious bidder?
> 
> I’ve always said that Intrawest should buy Jay.  A Tremblant-Jay pass would corner the Montreal market.



You mean Alterra?  Intrawest is no more.  

https://www.aspensnowmass.com/~/med...tories/acquistion/ksl_asc-04_10_17.ashx?la=en


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> You mean Alterra?  Intrawest is no more.
> 
> https://www.aspensnowmass.com/~/med...tories/acquistion/ksl_asc-04_10_17.ashx?la=en



Yup!


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 2, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> They aren't really on the market as of yet.  Soon though!



It would not surprise me if we see an announcement sooner than later.  There must have been some discussions happening behind closed doors.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 2, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> *
> So what are the predictions from here?  Will the resorts sell together?  If not, will Burke have a serious bidder?*
> 
> I’ve always said that Intrawest should buy Jay.  A Tremblant-Jay pass would corner the Montreal market.



The resorts will likely only "sell together" if behind the scenes they essentially force would-be buyers to take Burke if they want Jay Peak.  I think that's a strong possibility of what could happen, and if so, you'll never know it because it wont be admitted.

Sadly, because money is still (for the moment) cheap, I do believe one of these major ski conglomerates will snatch this purchase up in another bid at one of these annoying mega-pass structures.  In other words, hello $89 Jay Peak day rates with no discounts.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 2, 2018)

Interesting tid-bit from that article listing Q-assets.  Every media outlet etc... constantly talks about the Trump apartment in NYC whenever this story comes up, because..... Trump name.  

 But the list also notes an apartment located at 400 Fifth Avenue, which I guarantee cost more money than the Trump Riverside apartment.


----------



## Harvey (Feb 2, 2018)

The penalty for Q seems light to me.  How much did he steal?  No time?


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 2, 2018)

Harvey said:


> The penalty for Q seems light to me.  How much did he steal?  No time?



That's the civil case that wss settled.  The criminal car should follow.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 2, 2018)

Harvey said:


> No time?



He's definitely going to jail.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

Does anyone want to buy a ski resort?

https://vtdigger.org/2018/02/14/jay-peak-burke-go-market-may/


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Does anyone want to buy a ski resort?
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/02/14/jay-peak-burke-go-market-may/



Goldberg plans to market the properties together


----------



## cdskier (Feb 15, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Goldberg plans to market the properties together



Yea, no shock there. I think most people here suspected that would be the case. Makes the most sense I think.


----------



## Vaughn (Feb 15, 2018)

Les Otten should have just waited a few years to launch his 'more climate change resilient northern ski area' project and just bought this one.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> Les Otten should have just waited a few years to launch his 'more climate change resilient northern ski area' project and just bought this one.



Not sure he has bought anything. He is just the idea guy and the guy setting up the financing, not the actual finance backing guy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yea, no shock there. I think most people here suspected that would be the case. Makes the most sense I think.



They are going to be marketed as a package.  That does not mean that they will be sold as a package.  The market will dictate that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yea, no shock there.* I think most people here suspected that* would be the case. Makes the most sense I think.



Yup.   It was obvious; and due to necessity.

Buy a new sports car, get a rusted-out pick-up truck with no transmission for free!


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 15, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup.   It was obvious; and due to necessity.
> 
> Buy a new sports car, get a rusted-out pick-up truck with no transmission for free!



Can they specify in a sales clause that the buyer has to operate Burke for X number of years ?  Otherwise, there might be a quick resale/liquidation of the bad assets.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 15, 2018)

fbrissette said:


> *Can they specify in a sales clause that the buyer has to operate Burke for X number of years ?*  Otherwise, there might be a quick resale/liquidation of the bad assets.



I was thinking precisely of that.   

It would be quite simple to buy the entity, operate it for a handful of years, show the Burke losses, file Burke for bankruptcy.  The end.

A better solution would be to attempt to sell Burke as an R.P.T. (rich person's toy), but that's a Hail Mary pass.   If someone well-heeled like MTN could figure out a way to operate Burke at break-even, perhaps they'd bite to get Jay Peak, but MTN doesn't make a practice of _losing_ money......on chocolate chip cookies, let alone a resort property!  For SKIS it would be a terrible acquisition IMO if they must operate Burke.   I think private equity is the most likely solution, but taking on Burke is going to decrease the list of buyers.  My 2¢.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

fbrissette said:


> Can they specify in a sales clause that the buyer has to operate Burke for X number of years ?  Otherwise, there might be a quick resale/liquidation of the bad assets.



The problem is that the receiver's only duty is to get the most money at a sale for the investors.  His job is not to care about the long term future of Burke.  If putting that clause in a contract means that the overall sales price will be reduced, I just don't see how the receiver can justify that.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> The problem is that the receiver's only duty is to get the most money at a sale for the investors.  His job is not to care about the long term future of Burke.  If putting that clause in a contract means that the overall sales price will be reduced, I just don't see how the receiver can justify that.



Interesting point...

So for someone that doesn't know enough about Burke, what is the biggest factor with it not being very profitable? Location?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 15, 2018)

Dick Gazinya said:


> Why don't you go back to your blog and frig off?



Why hasnt a mod banned this guy yet?   Do we even technically have mods here anymore?  If the moon were really made of cheese, would it be swiss, gruyere, muenster, or something else?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> The problem is that the receiver's only duty is to get the most money at a sale for the investors.  His job is not to care about the long term future of Burke.  If putting that clause in a contract means that the overall sales price will be reduced, I just don't see how the receiver can justify that.



Normally I'd agree with exactly what you said above, but this is Vermont.   I'm sure the state will lean on the receiver heavily, if they have any sort of leverage (which they shouldn't) to save Burke.


----------



## Dick Gazinya (Feb 15, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Why hasnt a mod banned this guy yet?   Do we even technically have mods here anymore?  If the moon were really made of cheese, would it be swiss, gruyere, muenster, or something else?



Sounds like you're asking for a ski off!


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Interesting point...
> 
> So for someone that doesn't know enough about Burke, what is the biggest factor with it not being very profitable? Location?



IMHO, the biggest factors are:
1) Location.  No matter which direction you are coming from, there are bigger and better ski areas that are closer.  
2) Size.  It's big enough to make me happy, but it's not big enough to entice someone to drive farther to ski it.
3) Snowmaking.  The snowmaking is horrible.  Forget refreshing trails, it's all they can do to limp along and get a trail (or half of a trail) open every few days.  They also don't get nearly the amount of natural snow that Jay Peak gets.


----------



## Grizzly Adams (Feb 15, 2018)

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Sc...of-Jay-Peak-recreation-center--474054513.html

Interesting article about the sale of Jay - recent investments no doubt make it more enticing. Not much new info, but a good/quick read/listen nonetheless. Unfortunately no mention or insight on Burke though.

"dozens of potential buyers, nationally and internationally, have already shown up to take a look." - Please God let it not be Vail....


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2018)

What would happen to Burke Academy if Burke was gone?


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2018)

Grizzly Adams said:


> http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Sc...of-Jay-Peak-recreation-center--474054513.html
> 
> Interesting article about the sale of Jay - recent investments no doubt make it more enticing. Not much new info, but a good/quick read/listen nonetheless. Unfortunately no mention or insight on Burke though.
> 
> "dozens of potential buyers, nationally and internationally, have already shown up to take a look." - Please God let it not be Vail....



Boyne or whomever owns Loon/Sunday River/ Sugarloaf?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> What would happen to Burke Academy if Burke was gone?



Burke Mountain Academy will always make sure that the training hill is available for their students.


----------



## Zand (Feb 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Burke Mountain Academy will always make sure that the training hill is available for their students.



Maybe shiffrin can buy it with all the endorsements she gets.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Feb 15, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> What would happen to Burke Academy if Burke was gone?



A: They operate their own scaled down operation of just Warren's Way, the T-Bar and maybe the Dippers. 
      - In order to keep the Dippers in play, they would have to add another surface lift from the top of the T-bar to the summit. 

B: The school goes under with the mountain and the Stratton Mtn School and Carrabassett Valley Academy pick up the slack.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

from_the_NEK said:


> A: They operate their own scaled down operation of just Warren's Way, the T-Bar and maybe the Dippers.
> - In order to keep the Dippers in play, they would have to add another surface lift from the top of the T-bar to the summit.
> 
> B: The school goes under with the mountain and the Stratton Mtn School and Carrabassett Valley Academy pick up the slack.



C: They move their operation to Cannon.


----------



## Edd (Feb 15, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Boyne or whomever owns Loon/Sunday River/ Sugarloaf?



I’m skeptical of that but it would be an interesting addition to the New England pass. Being an hour north of Loon, some may go to escape the shitshow there. I’m confident it would bring a bunch of new skiers to Burke but would it be enough is the question. 

Ironically, Burke would do better if the competition were a bit closer. Picture Jay and Cannon being 20 minutes from there instead of 60-ish. 

Also, I’ve said this before but Burke needs some major marketing $. I bet most people in New England don’t even know it exists.


----------



## mbedle (Feb 15, 2018)

I am assuming it was a misquote, but did I read correctly in the first article that the investors now own everything at the mountains? Can't be correct, but if so, what are the actually selling when these go on the market? The resort operations only (like Vail-Stowe), the resort operations and the general partnerships or everything, including buying out all of the LPs (which I am guessing is not the case, since that would be a huge loss for investors)? I can't really understand exactly how this is all going to play out as far as a real estate deal. Even with the SEC settlement, I got to believe that this is going to be a very difficult sale to make with the EB-5 all tied into it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I am assuming it was a misquote, but did I read correctly in the first article that the investors now own everything at the mountains? .



This has to do with the history of the investments.  The investors were led to believe that they would have an equity interest in their project.  For example, the Tram Haus investors would own actual units that they could sell on the open market at some point in the future.  They were told this to make them believe that their risk was low.

And then things were changed.  Quiros and/or Stenger removed (or never gave?) the investors an equity interest.  If memory serves me correctly, the investors were made unsecured creditors.  After quite a bit of backlash, I believe that they may have been given an equity interest in the ski area itself, but not the brand new properties that were built.  In other words, they were part owners of aging lifts rather than brand new condos and hotel rooms.

It appears that the receiver has rectified this so that the investors got what they believed they were getting, and perhaps even moreso.  If so, good for the receiver.

This is from memory, so feel free to correct me if I got something wrong.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> This has to do with the history of the investments.  The investors were led to believe that they would have an equity interest in their project.  For example, the Tram Haus investors would own actual units that they could sell on the open market at some point in the future.  They were told this to make them believe that their risk was low.
> 
> And then things were changed.  Quiros and/or Stenger removed (or never gave?) the investors an equity interest.  If memory serves me correctly, the investors were made unsecured creditors.  After quite a bit of backlash, I believe that they may have been given an equity interest in the ski area itself, but not the brand new properties that were built.  In other words, they were part owners of aging lifts rather than brand new condos and hotel rooms.
> 
> ...



What the article said is before they did not own any of the ski area just what they invested in (tram house. state side, water park or what ever) now they have a stake in the whole ski area and the other stuff. When it is sold they will get a share in what it is all sold for.


----------



## Grizzly Adams (Feb 15, 2018)

mbedle said:


> did I read correctly in the first article that the investors now own everything at the mountains?



From the Burlington Press: "The SEC's final judgment against Quiros orders 17 properties, including the Jay Peak and Burke Mountain ski resorts and two New York City condominiums, and about $417,000 in frozen cash, to be turned over to federal receiver Michael Goldberg to satisfy the $81.3 million Quiros owes. Goldberg plans to sell the properties for the benefit of defrauded investors."

It seems like the proceeds from the sale will be used to pay back those who were either promised returns on investments, and/or those who did not benefit from the EB-5 program. I read somewhere else that there was a slew of people who were expecting citizenship, but are now hanging in limbo. 

Seems to me that its a full package for sale, land/buildings/lifts/equipment/operations/etc. - Resort Operations must be included/built into the price of the overall land deal. But then again, I don't know much about these types of deals....


----------



## mbedle (Feb 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> This has to do with the history of the investments.  The investors were led to believe that they would have an equity interest in their project.  For example, the Tram Haus investors would own actual units that they could sell on the open market at some point in the future.  They were told this to make them believe that their risk was low.
> 
> And then things were changed.  Quiros and/or Stenger removed (or never gave?) the investors an equity interest.  If memory serves me correctly, the investors were made unsecured creditors.  After quite a bit of backlash, I believe that they may have been given an equity interest in the ski area itself, but not the brand new properties that were built.  In other words, they were part owners of aging lifts rather than brand new condos and hotel rooms.
> 
> ...



I forgot about that, but I think that only happened on the Phase I investors. And that just adds to the confusion / issues that any potential buyer has to deal with. I think were I am getting stuck is the money from the sale of these resorts does not come even close to the investments. As such, I got to believe that most of the investors (maybe excluding Phase I) will still have some type of equity stack in the resorts.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

mbedle said:


> but I think that only happened on the Phase I investors.



That may very well be true.  The articles that I have seen refer to the Tram Haus investors, who I believe were the Phase I investors.


----------



## mbedle (Feb 15, 2018)

Grizzly Adams said:


> From the Burlington Press: "The SEC's final judgment against Quiros orders 17 properties, including the Jay Peak and Burke Mountain ski resorts and two New York City condominiums, and about $417,000 in frozen cash, to be turned over to federal receiver Michael Goldberg to satisfy the $81.3 million Quiros owes. Goldberg plans to sell the properties for the benefit of defrauded investors."
> 
> It seems like the proceeds from the sale will be used to pay back those who were either promised returns on investments, and/or those who did not benefit from the EB-5 program. I read somewhere else that there was a slew of people who were expecting citizenship, but are now hanging in limbo.
> 
> Seems to me that its a full package for sale, land/buildings/lifts/equipment/operations/etc. - Resort Operations must be included/built into the price of the overall land deal. But then again, I don't know much about these types of deals....



I was looking at this quote:

Goldberg plans to market the properties together as early as May, and he expects to sell the two resorts before the next ski season. The settlement, he says, clears the titles for the hotel at Burke Mountain, and the hotel complexes, condos, water park and other amenities at Jay Peak Resort. In addition, the investors now own Jay Peak and Burke mountains and the ski operations.

So with that said, even if they sold both places for 100 million (pulled out of nowhere!), that is not even close to the amount of money LPs have invested in these resorts. I don't know the exact numbers (since some have taken their money back) but lets say there are still 500 LPs involved in both resorts, that would mean that both resorts would have to sell for 250 million and that is just to return their $500,000 initial investment. I don't see that happening.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Feb 15, 2018)

So I was at Stowe today and the lady selling tickets was talking about Jay Peak being up for sale and she was hoping Vail was going to buy Jay and said she thought there was a decent chance.

I told her I have reservations about Vail doing a rapid expansion especially when it involves my preferred ski areas. Then again, I have no complaints about their management. I think I actually got better service and higher quality experience at Stowe today than ever before; then again it was totally empty, the shitters better be clean.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm rooting for Alterra to buy Jay and for Omni to buy Burke.

I'm not sure if the hotel at Burke is up to Omni's standards, but one can always hope.


----------



## JimG. (Feb 15, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> the shitters better be clean.



Crude...especially for someone so sensitive about the lord's name.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Feb 15, 2018)

JimG. said:


> Crude...especially for someone so sensitive about the lord's name.



idk you might have missed the joke on that one

The Apostle Paul used the word "shit", not that I think I compare favorably to him.


----------



## Domeskier (Feb 15, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> The Apostle Paul used the word "shit", not that I think I compare favorably to him.



I've heard his English was excellent.


----------



## Edd (Feb 15, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> The Apostle Paul used the word "shit", not that I think I compare favorably to him.





Domeskier said:


> I've heard his English was excellent.



He probably exclaimed “Jesus!” quite often.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Feb 15, 2018)

Probably not that often unless in prayer since Paul was converted after Jesus died/rose again. They weren't hanging around together.

I dunno, you guys want to talk about religion on here? I thought this was a skiing forum.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 15, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I was looking at this quote:
> 
> Goldberg plans to market the properties together as early as May, and he expects to sell the two resorts before the next ski season. The settlement, he says, clears the titles for the hotel at Burke Mountain, and the hotel complexes, condos, water park and other amenities at Jay Peak Resort. In addition, the investors now own Jay Peak and Burke mountains and the ski operations.
> 
> So with that said, even if they sold both places for 100 million (pulled out of nowhere!), that is not even close to the amount of money LPs have invested in these resorts. I don't know the exact numbers (since some have taken their money back) but lets say there are still 500 LPs involved in both resorts, that would mean that both resorts would have to sell for 250 million and that is just to return their $500,000 initial investment. I don't see that happening.



Not that it would add much but there were some other properties as well. condo in NY amongst them


----------



## mbedle (Feb 16, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Not that it would add much but there were some other properties as well. condo in NY amongst them



I was just reading the final judgement and yes there are 14 other real estate properties he owns. Can't wait to see how this all plays out.


----------



## Grizzly Adams (Feb 16, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> So I was at Stowe today and the lady selling tickets was talking about Jay Peak being up for sale and she was hoping Vail was going to buy Jay and said she thought there was a decent chance.... I think I actually got better service and higher quality experience at Stowe today than ever before; then again it was totally empty, the shitters better be clean.



Maybe if Vail buys Jay they'll figure out how to fix the perpetually awful stench in the Stateside lodge bathrooms too...


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 16, 2018)

Grizzly Adams said:


> Maybe if Vail buys Jay they'll figure out how to fix the perpetually awful stench in the Stateside lodge bathrooms too...



in the new lodge?


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 16, 2018)

The Caledonian Record ran an article today.  There was some interesting information given by the receiver:
1) There is already plenty of interest among prospective purchasers.
2) Goldberg will begin marketing Jay Peak in May.
3) Jay Peak will be marketed first, and Burke after - but it is possible that they will be sold together.
4) It is impossible to say at this point in time whether or not the EB-5 investors will be made whole.
5) He does not anticipate a sale for either property to close before November, 2018.
6) The resorts got off to a good start this winter, but the weather has had an impact on skier visits.


----------



## Grizzly Adams (Feb 16, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> in the new lodge?



yes, the main Stateside Lodge. 

I've been a season pass holder at Jay for several years, and the Stateside bathrooms have always smelled like pure garbage. I've been the first one in the lodge on many occasions, and even with nobody there they stink to high heaven. The custodial staff is pretty diligent, I see them making frequent rounds to clean, but nevertheless, the reek is ever present. 

This is one of my very few qualms with Jay, its still my favorite mountain by far... Sorry for getting off topic here


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 16, 2018)

Grizzly Adams said:


> yes, the main Stateside Lodge.
> 
> I've been a season pass holder at Jay for several years, and the Stateside bathrooms have always smelled like pure garbage. I've been the first one in the lodge on many occasions, and even with nobody there they stink to high heaven. The custodial staff is pretty diligent, I see them making frequent rounds to clean, but nevertheless, the reek is ever present.
> 
> This is one of my very few qualms with Jay, its still my favorite mountain by far... Sorry for getting off topic here



I knew the old ones stunk


----------



## bdfreetuna (Feb 16, 2018)

Let's be honest. We all know Canadians just piss straight onto the floor when outside of their home Province.


----------



## Edd (Feb 16, 2018)

Just posting a random pic of Jay Peak here. For those who don’t use the iOS app, I’ve been seeing this random gif someone posted of some douche kicking another in the nuts for months it seems. I think I’ve learned all I can from this gif and I hope my pic displaces it.

Damn, it didn’t work! WTF is up with this gif?


----------



## fbrissette (Feb 16, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Let's be honest. We all know Canadians just piss straight onto the floor when outside of their home Province.



And all that time I though it was the New-Yorkers !


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 16, 2018)

fbrissette said:


> And all that time I though it was the New-Yorkers !



There aren't enough New Yorkers at Jay Peak to make that stench.  And New Yorkers don't eat pemmican.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 16, 2018)

Anyone (New Yorker, Faux-New Yorker, Canadian, Swazilander) have a recent Jay Trip report? 

 I was there on Sunday and it was fine.  Wondering if the warm-up and freeze since then has left the entire place a skating rink or not.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Feb 17, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Anyone (New Yorker, Faux-New Yorker, Canadian, Swazilander) have a recent Jay Trip report?
> 
> I was there on Sunday and it was fine.  Wondering if the warm-up and freeze since then has left the entire place a skating rink or not.



Friday was pretty slick
got close to 6 inches last night, they were able to till that into most of the trails, pretty good recovery considering.
good corduroy groomers aced it 
busy but not crazy 2 minute wait on the flyer at 11:30 am 5 at the bonnie
more snow tonight  then likely some rain monday night


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 17, 2018)

For a PDW Saturday, I'd say it's absolutely dead here.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2018)

It turns out that the Governor was tighter with Quiros than we realized.  

https://vtdigger.org/2018/03/18/shumlin-stayed-quiros-fifth-avenue-pad/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2018)

> *The former governor also received more than $20,000 in campaign contributions from Quiros*, then Jay Peak CEO and President Bill Stenger and associates.



Those are the ones I found searching public records back before this scandal broke. 

 I posted the filings here in this thread but a mod deleted them saying it wasn't relevant and was merely "political".


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> It turns out that the Governor was tighter with Quiros than we realized.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/03/18/shumlin-stayed-quiros-fifth-avenue-pad/



What a joke.


----------



## bzrperfspec77 (Mar 19, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> What a joke.



Couldn't of said it better myself...

However, I always find it interesting reading about those type political stories. It's truely remarkable that sort of thing happens and some get away with it. Good on VT to dig it up and get to the bottom of it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2018)

bzrperfspec77 said:


> Couldn't of said it better myself...
> 
> However, I always find it interesting reading about those type political stories. It's truely remarkable that sort of thing happens and some get away with it. Good on VT to dig it up and get to the bottom of it.



He hasn't been held accountable.  Yet.  At last check he was a visiting faculty member of the Harvard School of Government or Public Health teaching government.  :roll:


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 19, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> He hasn't been held accountable.  Yet.  At last check he was a visiting faculty member of the Harvard School of Government or Public Health teaching government.  :roll:



Did he get the Harvard gig because he told them he is Native American?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Did he get the Harvard gig because he told them he is Native American?



I doubt that he had to say anything.  One look at his high cheek bones and it's obvious.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Did he get the Harvard gig because he told them he is Native American?



Good one.  No, it was because he did such an awesome job with the proposed single payer system.  Until he completely bailed on it.  After getting re-elected.


----------



## AdironRider (Mar 19, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Good one.  No, it was because he did such an awesome job with the proposed single payer system.  Until he completely bailed on it.  After getting re-elected.



To be fair didn't he run the numbers and it would have resulted in like an additional 20% in taxes. Something like 11.5% payroll tax and another 9.5% coming out of paychecks. That is pretty much a non starter in a state like VT, which isn't exactly killing it economy wise.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 19, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> To be fair didn't he run the numbers and it would have resulted in like an additional 20% in taxes. Something like 11.5% payroll tax and another 9.5% coming out of paychecks. That is pretty much a non starter in a state like VT, which isn't exactly killing it economy wise.



He did, but the question was when did he know it was a non-starter.  It was before the election, but he deep-sixed the plan AFTER he got re-elected and after getting the liberals to vote for him before he betrayed them.  It was a huge deal.  His last inauguration was a shit show with protesters pissed at him.  Believe it or not but there was a significant number of folks who "thought" it was a good idea.  But you're right in that it was not really feasible.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 19, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Believe it or not but* there was a significant number of folks who "thought" it was a good idea.  But you're right in that it was not really feasible.*



“_No one in this world, so far as I know..... has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. *Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”*_ - H.L. Mencken, 1926


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2018)

This just took an alleged surprise turn:
https://vtdigger.org/2018/03/19/eb-5-investor-lawyer-state-official-committed-sex-crime-china/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> This just took an alleged surprise turn:
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/03/19/eb-5-investor-lawyer-state-official-committed-sex-crime-china/



That story buries the lead.   The child sex, while creepy, isnt the important thing.   The important thing is the judge assigned to this case seems to be 100% protecting State or Vermont.

This part is particularly distressing:



> _Judge Carlson asked Barr to point to state or federal laws that require regional centers to audit projects._


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> This just took an alleged surprise turn:
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/03/19/eb-5-investor-lawyer-state-official-committed-sex-crime-china/



Yep, shit just got real interesting.  

And I would not read into the judge's comments too much.  He was feeling out the case.  Nobody can doubt that the Governor explicitly said on widely-distributed video that the State "audited" the EB-5 projects.  He used it as a selling point.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2018)

So this "sex crime" took place on either the 2013 or 2014 trip.

There were 6 guys on the 2013 Chinese trip:

Governor Peter Shumlin
Shumlin's unnamed bodyguards (2)
Secretary Lawrence Miller
Jay Peak CEO Bill Stenger
VT EB-5 Director Brent Raymond (Ugh.... this guy again)

I cant find complete info on the 2014 trip, only:

Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.
Rep. Peter Welch, D-Vt
John Tracy, State Director for Patrick Leahy
Jay Peak CEO Bill Stenger
VT EB-5 Director Brent Raymond


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> So this "sex crime" took place on either the 2013 or 2014 trip.
> 
> There were 6 guys on the 2013 Chinese trip:
> 
> ...



The attorney said that it was "that an official involved in the state EB-5 program."  That would seem to rule out a couple of people on your list.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2018)

The State is pushing back:
https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMess...-has-no-records-of-sex-crime-during-eb-5-trip

Although having no records does not mean that it never happened.  But I'm starting to wonder if Barr really has credible evidence.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 20, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> *I'm starting to wonder if Barr really has credible evidence.*



I would believe the sleaziest of back alley lawyers with unaccredited law school degrees over State of Vermont.


Let's briefly recap (not even remotely in full):

State of Vermont claimed they audited the financials of Jay Peak, when they weren't auditing the financials of Jay Peak.

State of Vermont has stonewalled and refused and delayed in turning over emails from the Shumlin Admin.

State of Vermont via Patrick Leahy, refused to turn over emails citing, _"respect for privacy laws"_ = ROFL.

State of Vermont ran an EB-5 outfit completely in cahoots to bring in $$$$$ at the expense of duped investors.

State of Vermont approved a "science lab" with no FDA or EMEA approved products & which was built on completely fictitious, or at very least, dubious science.

and I could go on and on and on.........


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I would believe the sleaziest of back alley lawyers with unaccredited law school degrees over State of Vermont.
> 
> 
> Let's briefly recap (not even remotely in full):
> ...



The damage that the State did to itself is enormous.  The best thing that they can do is just hand over the documents and be transparent.  If they don't it means that *any* serious business would not go near Vermont based on this shit show.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2018)

The State of Vermont may regret suing Quiros.  They have opened the door to some evidence that they may not want coming out.

https://vtdigger.org/2018/03/30/quiros-state-eb-5-officials-unclean-hands/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 30, 2018)

I've never heard the,_ "my client isnt liable, because you would have known he was stealing if you were doing your job"_ defense.

  Is that really a thing?


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2018)

Let's be honest. 

The biggest "bombshell" Jay Peak is going to see is when I get up there next week after a few more inches of snow for some late season shred.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 30, 2018)

The Vermont assistant Attorney General is fully of **** too, saying, "the state had _“no idea” _Quiros was committing fraud because he “_was concealing what he was doing.”_

Ummmmm....... no.  I'm a guy with absolutely no access to any financials or data, and I was highly suspect a fraud was being committed while sitting at my desk in New Jersey just via the small incidental details dripping out about the methodology (or lack thereof more specifically) of how the financial reviews were apparently not being conducted, as well as the fact that it was clear to me via LinkedIn that nobody at that _"most safe EB-5 center in America because it was the only one government run"_ (which really means it's the least safe if you have any experience with government employees) had even remotely the background to properly audit a multiple hundreds-of-millions-of-dollars audit trail, amongst other things.    If anyone in Vermont even LOOKED at this, they would have caught Quiros in about 2 minutes.  This was NOT the "highly skilled" mastermind diabolically brilliant financial caper State of Vermont wants everyone to believe, it was actually shockingly stupid.   If anyone even LOOKED in the cash register, they would have noticed it was empty.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've never heard the,_ "my client isnt liable, because you would have known he was stealing if you were doing your job"_ defense.
> 
> Is that really a thing?



It's a thing.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2018)

_I... didn't know I couldn't do that._


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Mar 30, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Let's be honest.
> 
> The biggest "bombshell" Jay Peak is going to see is when I get up there next week after a few more inches of snow for some late season shred.



Everything skied well this am, drizzle turned to snow@10am. Coverage is great.
Word is that there may be a storm tuesday, temps will be close.
Wet sticky spring snow means ski the ridge
In any event, enjoy and we'll see you out there


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 7, 2018)

You are so right about the ANC Bio thing. That was so laughable. Just dig up the prospectus. Broken down Korean bio fraud spawns VT clone?

We can't get Phd bio types to come to CT. Newport Vt schools for their kids? Preposterous..


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2018)

https://vtdigger.org/2018/04/21/jud...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-ab863ac73e-405558657


This disturbs me:  



> In addition, the judge ruled that agreements between the state and Jay Peak that required quarterly financial reporting, oversight, management and administration of the projects did not call for the state to conduct “any audit of the project.” “The reporting and honesty obligations fell on the Jay Peak entities,” he wrote.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2018)

Congratulations Vermont!!!!

You've FINALLY done it!!!!

You are now officially * the MOST corrupt state in all of America!!!*:beer:

Illinois, New York, and New Jersey are really going to have to step-up their game to contend.



> In addition, *the judge ruled that agreements between the state and Jay Peak that required quarterly financial reporting, oversight, management and administration of the projects did not call for the state to conduct “any audit of the project.”* “The reporting and honesty obligations fell on the Jay Peak entities,” he wrote.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 22, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Congratulations Vermont!!!!
> 
> You've FINALLY done it!!!!
> 
> ...



I think little Vermont has got a long ways to go to be the most corrupt state in America. LOL


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 22, 2018)

IMHO, this is an example of Vermont trying to play in the big leagues without having any real clue how to do so.  That happens a lot in our little state.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 22, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> IMHO, this is an example of Vermont trying to play in the big leagues without having any real clue how to do so.  That happens a lot in our little state.



Just so you know VT, I wasn't trying to put down Vermont with the word little. It was more to do with the GSP and population. The point I was trying to make is this event doesn't even come close to the amount of corruption that exists in a lot of other states.  As far as fraud cases, it also doesn't even come close to the top ten in this country.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Just so you know VT, I wasn't trying to put down Vermont with the word little. It was more to do with the GSP and population. The point I was trying to make is this event doesn't even come close to the amount of corruption that exists in a lot of other states.  As far as fraud cases, it also doesn't even come close to the top ten in this country.



Well....this did involve hundreds of millions of dollars.  And state officials traveled with the presenters to Asia, allowed the State seal to be used on marketing materials, affirmatively represented that these projects WERE audited and WERE a safe investment.  Do I need to continue?  I think that is a big deal.  

While I have not reviewed the decision and get the whole sovereign immunity issue, politically and business wise this is a HUGE eff up.


----------



## Jcb890 (Apr 23, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Well....this did involve hundreds of millions of dollars.  And state officials traveled with the presenters to Asia, allowed the State seal to be used on marketing materials, affirmatively represented that these projects WERE audited and WERE a safe investment.  Do I need to continue?  I think that is a big deal.
> 
> While I have not reviewed the decision and get the whole sovereign immunity issue, politically and business wise this is a HUGE eff up.


Certainly not something you would expect to see happen at the state level with state officials involved.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Certainly not something you would expect to see happen at the state level with state officials involved.



Exactly.  Especially when the STATE sold folks on the idea that they were doing oversight.


----------



## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  Especially when the STATE sold folks on the idea that they were doing oversight.


That might be the most egregious part because it calls into question everything which had this stamp of approval in the past.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.*  Especially when the STATE sold folks on the idea that they were doing oversight*.



I guarantee you there are many more criminal layers to this onion, and sadly it's likely none will be peeled off.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2018)

Still going....

https://vtdigger.org/2018/06/10/rec...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-0b50b5f065-405558657


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2018)

Allegations of kickbacks:
https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/08/lawsuit-attorneys-eb-5-investors-took-5m-kickbacks-jay-peak/

But remember, Stenger knew absolutely nothing.  Right?


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 9, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Allegations of kickbacks:
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/08/lawsuit-attorneys-eb-5-investors-took-5m-kickbacks-jay-peak/
> 
> But remember, Stenger knew absolutely nothing.  Right?




I don't know if this is much to get worked up about. They had to recruit investors. 

If they were employees that would be a ok. But spending money to find investors, not ok? Seems like semantics here. 

It certainly isn't some smoking gun. Did you think getting EB-5 cash wasn't going to cost something even when legal? 

I think Stenger knew something wasn't adding up, maybe even was like Ari, wtf? But at the end of the day I don't think Quiros was filling him in on the fraud. Stenger seemed to be to public about his involvement, getting in the papers, etc for me to believe he was some criminal mastermind. This is a pretty elaborate fraud, not something some rube could pull off, but that would be a pretty stupid move drawing that much attention to one's self. 

Who knows, I doubt we'll ever figure it out now that Quiros has settled.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2018)

So a finders fee in and of itself is not an issue in ordinary cases.  The problem here though was that when investors grew concerned the lawyers who received these fees were slow to act if they acted at all.  That does not look good.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> *
> I think Stenger knew something wasn't adding up*



Unless he's the dumbest S.O.B. alive, at the very least he knew something extremely fishy was going on.

And I think even that is a rather charitable take.


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 9, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> So a finders fee in and of itself is not an issue in ordinary cases.  The problem here though was that when investors grew concerned the lawyers who received these fees were slow to act if they acted at all.  That does not look good.



You would know better, are there contracts involved with this type of legal stuff? Like, your fee covers X and Y (getting involved with investing/green cards with Jay), but not Z (which in this case would be the investors being concerned after the fact). 

I agree, on just an ethical plane, that it is a bad look.


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 9, 2018)

I think I said that in my comment, but he was also an employee, changes the power dynamic here a bit. 

I think it is easier said than done to just be like, this smells funny, but without zero proof I think I would be hard pressed to just walk away from probably the best job in the entire NEK, maybe Vermont. 

He very well could have had evidence, but the SEC seemed to "clear" him relatively, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt somewhat.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> It certainly isn't some smoking gun. *Did you think getting EB-5 cash wasn't going to cost something *even when legal?



The direct costs associated with managing a program are entirely different from paying a scalp fee (which is a completely separate expense unrelated to the operation of the program). 

In any event, this bit below is egregiously shady, if not illegal, and if it is legal (which would surprise me), it shouldn't be.



> *The three plaintiffs retained Shen as their immigration attorney* in 2013, 2014 and March of 2016 (just prior to the SEC crackdown), *and were not made aware that Shen was also representing the interests of Stenger and Quiros.*


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 9, 2018)

TB would be a good one to answer that also. In other fields (like real estate) its legal to represent both parties. Divorces sometimes also. 

The liability would be on the attorney though here wouldn't it, not Stenger/Jay?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> * the SEC seemed to "clear" him *relatively, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt somewhat.



I think you're too kind.   

It's routine in matters like this to let the smaller fish go if its' necessary to catch the trophy fish. This may well be such a case; time will tell.


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 9, 2018)

Like I said, it is all relative. But we don't have anything else to go on. 

I would continue your "he would have to be the biggest moron alive" to be as publicly brazen about the whole effort if he really knew the extent of the scam right?


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> TB would be a good one to answer that also. In other fields (like real estate) its legal to represent both parties. Divorces sometimes also.
> 
> The liability would be on the attorney though here wouldn't it, not Stenger/Jay?


If it is ethical (big if), it must be disclosed and consented to.  That did not appear to happen here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> TB would be a good one to answer that also. In other fields (like real estate) its legal to represent both parties. Divorces sometimes also.
> 
> The liability would be on the attorney though here wouldn't it, not Stenger/Jay?



While it may technically allowed, the best practice is not to even go there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Like I said, it is all relative. But we don't have anything else to go on.
> 
> I would continue your "he would have to be the biggest moron alive" to be as publicly brazen about the whole effort if he really knew the extent of the scam right?



To claim ignorance is the lesser of two evils.  Even if it means you look like a buffoon.


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 9, 2018)

That is certainly true, he could just be covering his ass. 

I'm just as much a skeptic of the SEC as Benedict, but they seemed to think he was a bit player in the whole thing ultimately. It's what I have to go on currently. 

Just to be clear, none of this changes the ultimate effect on the community, but given Stenger had already put in decades of effort furthering Jay's cause (if I remember correctly he came with Jay and the Quiros didn't hire him?), and I think proved he legitimately cared about the NEK and the ski areas, I continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> That is certainly true, he could just be covering his ass.
> 
> I'm just as much a skeptic of the SEC as Benedict, but they seemed to think he was a bit player in the whole thing ultimately. It's what I have to go on currently.
> 
> Just to be clear, none of this changes the ultimate effect on the community, but given Stenger had already put in decades of effort furthering Jay's cause (if I remember correctly he came with Jay and the Quiros didn't hire him?), and I think proved he legitimately cared about the NEK and the ski areas, I continue to give him the benefit of the doubt.



Bill graduated from Syracuse (I think) and then went to work for Jack Frost in PA before coming to Jay in the early 1980's to work for MSSI.  He had some ownership in the mountain when MSSI sold it to Q in 2008.

So Jay was pretty much his life.  He still "consults" for the receiver.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2018)

He was promised ownership.  I don’t think that Q ever gave him some.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 9, 2018)

Vermont EB-5 center is shut down:
https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/09/federal-agency-terminates-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 10, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> He was promised ownership.  I don’t think that Q ever gave him some.



He had an ownership interest BEFORE Q with MSSI.  A small piece, but a piece.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 10, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont EB-5 center is shut down:
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/09/federal-agency-terminates-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/



So glad that the court tossed the investors' case against the State.  I mean they did nothing wrong, right?!  



> USCIS determined that the Vermont Agency of Commerce and Community Development made material misrepresentations to EB-5 investors and to the USCIS in its statements about the Jay Peak developments, and failed to address some of those discrepancies in their response to the feds’ notice of intent to terminate last year.



Or how about:



> In addition, the federal agency said the state was warned of financial red flags in mid-2013, and upon becoming aware failed to notify USCIS and “remained silent in their concerns and took no action as over 83 petitions were approved” in 2014 and 2015.



And:



> “These discrepancies and misrepresentations cast doubt on the credibility of [the commerce agency’s] filings and call into question the legitimacy of its operations,” wrote Juliette Harrison, acting chief of the Immigrant Investor Program.





> “Thus, any harm to businesses which were not listed in the SEC or State complaint is attributable to the Regional Center’s lack of management and oversight which resulted in the diversion of EB-5 funds,” USCIS said.
> 
> However, it adds that “problems with the projects are not alleged to have been perpetrated” by state officials or employees of the EB-5 regional center. And while the USCIS gave the state credit for helping to investigate the fraud, it chided officials for the “lax oversight” of the state-run regional center that “allowed the fraud to occur in the first place.”



Finally, the Feds have spoken:



> “For these reasons, USCIS has determined by a preponderance of the evidence that the Regional Center no longer serves the purpose of promoting economic growth in compliance with the Program.”
> 
> [....]
> 
> *USCIS blames state officials for knowingly allowing the fraud to continue.*



I will never invest in Vermont after this shit show.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 10, 2018)

And Brent Raymond still has a cushy job with Peak Resorts.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 10, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> And Brent Raymond still has a cushy job with Peak Resorts.



...and Peter Shumlin is at Harvard teaching government.  Pat Moulton is President of VTC.  It's a big joke.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 10, 2018)

Saw the first piece of real estate sold for a good chunk of change. Wondering if they will get the resorts on the market this year.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 10, 2018)

Whatever happened to the people that used to argue with me about how they were sure the Vermont EB-5 center was the safest in America because it was the only one that was government run & operated?   It's as if they vanished from the earth.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 10, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whatever happened to the people that used to argue with me about how they were sure the Vermont EB-5 center was the safest in America because it was the only one that was government run & operated?   It's as if they vanished from the earth.



Riding the waves...at least Big Wave Dave is!  :lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 10, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> And *Brent Raymond still has a cushy job *with Peak Resorts.



It's even worse than that, he was never even investigated.   

While we're still on the recent subject of, "kickbacks", etc....., he'd be the very first name I'd be spending my forensic accounting time on & government powers via reviewing bank accounts, wire transfers, South African Krugerrand purchases, LOL etc...     

I cant even fathom a potential hypothesis as to how it could be possible that he isn't somehow involved in this.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 10, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> *I will never invest in Vermont after this* shit show.



Imagine how corrupt Vermont is that even after this _"shit show"_, the state still REFUSED to shut down the state EB-5 center.   So the Trump Administration had to step in and swing the death blow.   

Oh the wailing in the night and gnashing of teeth that must be occurring now that they've lost a bevy of $100,000 jobs to hand to their friends and political cronies.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 10, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Imagine how corrupt Vermont is that even after this _"shit show"_, the state still REFUSED to shut down the state EB-5 center.   So the Trump Administration had to step in and swing the death blow.
> 
> Oh the wailing in the night and gnashing of teeth that must be occurring now that they've lost a bevy of $100,000 jobs to hand to their friends and political cronies.



I am waiting for someone to complain that the closure was because of the mean Trumpites and was mere politics.  

I think it is funny that the AG is going to appeal the closure decision.  I think he almost has to do so to save face.  From what I have seen the new AG is just as much amateur hour as the last one.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 11, 2018)

A settlement with the State of Vermont?

https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/11/gov-ag-make-settlement-announcement-eb-5-fraud-case/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> A settlement with the State of Vermont?
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/11/gov-ag-make-settlement-announcement-eb-5-fraud-case/



Well, sounds like VT and Q.  

Vermont is best to resolve everything and get this in the rear mirror ASAP.  What a shit show.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 11, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I am waiting for someone to complain that the closure was because of the mean Trumpites and was mere politics.
> *
> I think it is funny that the AG is going to appeal the closure decision.  I think he almost has to do so to save face.*  From what I have seen the new AG is just as much amateur hour as the last one.



I view it quite the opposite.  I think it's dumb of State of Vermont to keep bringing this up and keeping it alive, given State of Vermont is so clearly in the wrong.  What if some intelligent team of lawyers actually starts digging and requesting state records?  Does Vermont just keep stonewalling and refusing to turn anything useful over?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 12, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I view it quite the opposite.  I think it's dumb of State of Vermont to keep bringing this up and keeping it alive, given State of Vermont is so clearly in the wrong.  What if some intelligent team of lawyers actually starts digging and requesting state records?  Does Vermont just keep stonewalling and refusing to turn anything useful over?



Yep.  Vermont just was on the wrong end of a decision by a judge ordering them to pay $60,000 in legal fees for a party seeking public records.  Vermont has a habit of not turning over public records.  

As to the general public, they just don't understand the magnitude of the issues.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 12, 2018)

Looks like state settled for 2 million on Quiros and 100K on Stenger.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 12, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Looks like state settled for 2 million on Quiros and 100K on Stenger.



Less than I would have guessed.  

I wonder if, when this is all over, Quiros will still come out ahead.  I haven't been following it closely enough to have any sort of idea.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 12, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Less than I would have guessed.
> 
> I wonder if, when this is all over, Quiros will still come out ahead.  I haven't been following it closely enough to have any sort of idea.



I think they mentioned that he might have 8 million left after the SEC settlement. So, yes he is still ahead, but its not over for him. I would guess that a criminal case and any other civil cases he may face will drain the rest of that. Does actually suck for his wife, who may not have known what was going on.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 12, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I think they mentioned that he might have 8 million left after the SEC settlement. So, yes he is still ahead, but its not over for him. I would guess that a criminal case and any other civil cases he may face will drain the rest of that. Does actually suck for his wife, who may not have known what was going on.


  But it benefited her for a few years. She had no right to have any of this benefit her. I do not feel sorry for her.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I think they mentioned that he might have 8 million left after the SEC settlement. So, yes he is still ahead, but its not over for him. I would guess that a criminal case and any other civil cases he may face will drain the rest of that. Does actually suck for his wife, who may not have known what was going on.



Nope. The VT AG said he is not bringing any criminal action. 

Complete weak sauce. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jul 13, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Nope. The VT AG said he is not bringing any criminal action.
> 
> Complete weak sauce.



Probably because it will expose all the VT government failings/blame and open them up to more lawsuits.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Probably because it will expose all the VT government failings/blame and open them up to more lawsuits.



He claimed that ethically he could not do it.  The only thing I could think of is that they got incriminating evidence from working with both Q and Stenger on a civil settlement.  But methinks it is more along the lines of what you said.  The AG "claimed" that they settled the case so that the documents could be turned over to the auditor of accounts to review and complete is investigation.  I am not holding my breath on that report.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 13, 2018)

Major update:
https://vtdigger.org/2018/08/13/receiver-plans-sell-jay-peak-next-summer-hits-brake-burke-sale/


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Major update:
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/08/13/receiver-plans-sell-jay-peak-next-summer-hits-brake-burke-sale/



Saw that they may have to do "more" construction at Burke before sale.  Not sure what that entails.  

And as for this:



> The state contended the slower approach would permit the center to continue to assist remaining investors in EB-5 projects in obtaining their green cards while at the same time not taking on any new developments.



Is that so they can help others commit fraud?  The state needs to get out of this NOW.


----------



## fbrissette (Aug 14, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Major update:
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/08/13/receiver-plans-sell-jay-peak-next-summer-hits-brake-burke-sale/




While I wish for Burke to succeed, as a Jay peak skier, I am pleased with this news.   I was afraid that the Burke sale would be tied into Jay Peak's and that the former would act as an anchor to potential mountain improvements, as revenues would be diverted to keep Burke afloat.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2018)

fbrissette said:


> While I wish for Burke to succeed, as a Jay peak skier, I am pleased with this news.   I was afraid that the Burke sale would be tied into Jay Peak's and that the former would act as an anchor to potential mountain improvements, as revenues would be diverted to keep Burke afloat.



Looks like he is thinking that it is better to separate them and to focus on making each other the best that they can be.  Very interesting that he thinks that investing more in Burke is better for it.  Depends on what he is going to build.


----------



## slatham (Aug 14, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like he is thinking that it is better to separate them and to focus on making each other the best that they can be.  Very interesting that he thinks that investing more in Burke is better for it.  Depends on what he is going to build.



Jay PEak makes money so much easier sell, and way easier to sell them separately. Burke has suffered losses and he is obviously analyzing whether the planned but not completed improvements would help get Burke to a profit.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like he is thinking that it is better to separate them and to focus on making each other the best that they can be.


He may simply be reacting to the market - a market that wants to purchase Jay Peak without Burke.



thetrailboss said:


> Very interesting that he thinks that investing more in Burke is better for it.  Depends on what he is going to build.


He doesn't necessarily think that.  He was quite clear that his goal is to create enough jobs so the investors can get their green cards.  His duty is first and foremost to the investors, and not to the mountain itself.  Mind you, he is walking a fine line because he needs to preserve the asset inasmuch as that is in the investors' best interest.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 14, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like he is thinking that it is better to separate them and to focus on making each other the best that they can be.  Very interesting that he thinks that investing more in Burke is better for it.  Depends on what he is going to build.



The winter season sounds to be the big loser for Burke right now. It would be interesting to hear what the summer revenue is. It seems to me that the mountain has been quite busy this summer thanks to MTBers and some large conferences. Additionally summer expenses are lower (no heating, snowmaking. etc)
If something else gets built, My guess is that it will be something winter weather resistant. I went to the water park at Jay this winter during the cold snap. I would venture a guess that a lot of other families did as well instead of skiing in -10 degree and below temps. That likely kept Jay's bottom line from looking even worse for the period of super cold followed by rain.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2018)

So that pretty much went down exactly as I predicted; that they'd try to sell Jay Peak & Burke as a "package deal", and most likely fail, forcing them to sell Jay Peak alone.  Burke either ends up an R.P.T. or the consequences appear dire.


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## mbedle (Aug 15, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> So that pretty much went down exactly as I predicted; that they'd try to sell Jay Peak & Burke as a "package deal", and most likely fail, forcing them to sell Jay Peak alone.  Burke either ends up an R.P.T. or the consequences appear dire.



Did I miss something? When did they try to sell Jay & Burke together and fail? What does R.P.T. mean?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Did I miss something? When did they try to sell Jay & Burke together and fail? What does R.P.T. mean?



Pretty sure they were not listed. But I imagine he had unofficial discussions.


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## sull1102 (Aug 15, 2018)

People overestimate the strength of Jay Peak. Killington can keep Pico going because it does have that scale and overall market power to keep a mid market mountain that otherwise might not make it going and improving. Jay Peak alone can be a top player in the East right there with K, Stowe, Sugarloaf, etc. The Jay+Burke combo on the other hand seems to really struggle in comparison.

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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> People overestimate the strength of Jay Peak. Killington can keep Pico going because it does have that scale and overall market power to keep a mid market mountain that otherwise might not make it going and improving. Jay Peak alone can be a top player in the East right there with K, Stowe, Sugarloaf, etc. The Jay+Burke combo on the other hand seems to really struggle in comparison.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Why do you say that?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 15, 2018)

pico has rutland. that's a solid chunk of population to make up your core crowd, and they dont want to deal with the crowds and expenses of killington. burke has st johnsbury. not nearly as populous, and they probably prefer to ski jay.


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 15, 2018)

Burke has a summer advantage with Kingdom Trails but how much they can profit off that beats me.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 15, 2018)

What’s scary is that the new hotel hasn’t brought profits but has brought significant increased fixed costs.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 15, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> What’s scary is that the new hotel hasn’t brought profits but has brought significant increased fixed costs.


IMO, they should have gone timeshare / quarter ownership model with that building.  Doing so cuts into margins during peak seasons, but the association fees keeps the cash flow positive to fund operational costs in the off season.  

Problem is, the market for time sharing isn't what it once was.  End of the day though, the idea of increasing the bed base is the right plan.  

Overall, probably the one thing that saves Burke eventually is the continued population growth along the 93 corridor from Manchester to Concord.  More people living there who will drive an hour past Loon for a more mellow ski experience.  That's probably 20 years away

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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> IMO, they should have gone timeshare / quarter ownership model with that building.  Doing so cuts into margins during peak seasons, but the association fees keeps the cash flow positive to fund operational costs in the off season.
> 
> Problem is, the market for time sharing isn't what it once was.  End of the day though, the idea of increasing the bed base is the right plan.
> 
> ...



I think that the longterm plan was for owner-occupied units....or timeshares. 

Not a big surprise as to the current financial picture.  Q burned a lot of goodwill that will take time to rebuild.  They also built a hotel that is a bit too upscale for the biker crowd.  That said, the building is beautiful and when I was there a few weeks back it was busy and the Willoughby Pub was decent.  At other times when I have visited it is dead.  

Both resorts are in different places.  Jay is pretty much built-out...in terms of amenities.  But Jay's lift infrastructure is pretty old overall.  Burke is a work in progress in terms of amenities but, surprisingly, its lifts are WAY ahead of Jay.  Ski-wise, Burke needs to see a facelift of the lodges and increased snowmaking.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 15, 2018)

I wonder how a Stateside lodge clone would have done at Burke.  It would be a better fit for the mountain bikers.


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## mister moose (Aug 15, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> pico has rutland. that's a solid chunk of population to make up your core crowd, and they dont want to deal with the crowds and expenses of killington. burke has st johnsbury. not nearly as populous, and they probably prefer to ski jay.



But wait, there's more.

Pico is closer to New York, NJ and Boston.  It has a decent condo base with better ski in-ski out than _anything_ at Killington.  It attracts families, and has good synergy with Killington that is only 8 minutes away.  Pico has better snowmaking, and has a less crowded, low key vibe.  VT adaptive and tele skiers have a large presence.  Both non resort dining in Rutland and the Killington nightlife is 10 minutes in either direction.  While it runs 5 days a week and has a shorter season than most, it appears to be stable.

Burke is farther, it's a tough draw for what it offers.  It gets better snow, but only certain times of the year.  If you want restaurants or nightlife you have far far less to choose from.  The new hotel's capital costs must be crushing with no EB-5 money flowing to plug the holes in the dike.  While the new HSQ is nice, maintaining 2 of them won't be cheap either.

All this is leading up to the point that while there is very likely a purchase price at which an investor is able to make money with a reasonable amount of confidence, that price is likely not going to cover all the debt.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 15, 2018)

Lot of fallacies in your statements Moose.  

You can't make it from Pico to the Snowshed lodge in 8 minutes under the best conditions.  

Burke is closer to Lyndonville than Pico is to Rutland.

Not sure it's worth arguing which mountain has the better snowmaking system.  They both make the bare minimum to operate and are pretty unimpressive.

Burke is about 20 minutes further from Boston than Pico,
 but is a much easier drive.

Pico for sure has NY/NJ customer base advantages.  Burke has a Montreal market that Pico does not.  

Crowd comparisons? Pretty much equal.  

Both places have to deal with the cost of High Speed Quads.

Terrain I'd give a big advantage to Burke.  Far better vertical consistency and way more trees. 

If you took Killington away and compared just Burke and Pico, I think Burke is the more sustainable product.  And I love Pico. Prefer the experience there to Killington



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## BenedictGomez (Aug 15, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Did I miss something? *When did they try to sell Jay & Burke together and fail? What does R.P.T. mean?*



That's definitely how this went down (or attempted to).  It's precisely what you'd do if you have one decent asset and one poor asset, and you desperately need to move both.  It couldn't be done, and I'm really not shocked.

Rich Person's Toy.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 16, 2018)

I’m not convinced that Burke gets better snow than Pico.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 16, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I’m not convinced that Burke gets better snow than Pico.



Thaw/freeze seems to hit Pico worse than Burke but I may just have been luckier at Burke than at Pico. I have skied more at Burke than Pico.


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## mister moose (Aug 16, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Lot of fallacies in your statements Moose.
> 
> You can't make it from Pico to the Snowshed lodge in 8 minutes under the best conditions.
> It's 2 miles from Pico to the Access Rd, @ 55 mph that's 2.2 minutes.  It's 4 miles further to Snowshed.  At 40 mph that's 6 minutes.  Total 8.2 minutes.  Granted you slow down before the post office on Rte 4, and granted you might get behind slower traffic, and granted it takes longer at 4pm on a Saturday, but I'm really not sure what your point is when you compare driving from Burke to Jay - 52 miles.
> ...





VTKilarney said:


> I’m not convinced that Burke gets better snow than Pico.



In my anecdotal experience, Burke got some great snowfalls deeper than Pico, mainly due to latitude.  Burke probably gets less rain for those storms where the rain/snow line hoses Pico but snows at Burke.  However looking at onthesnow.com, Burke only gets 217" per year and Pico is 250".


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 16, 2018)

I guess I'm coming from a position of growing up in the area, making it from Pico to the Snowshed parking lot isn't done in 8 minutes. Google maps lists 11.  Real world with access road traffic is probably closer to 15.  You didn't mention Jay in the synergy comment, so I didn't realize that was the comparison you were trying to make.

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## thetrailboss (Aug 16, 2018)

Oh boy...Pico vs. Burke.  I am biased because I grew up at Burke, but here goes.  

Pico, unless something has really changed, was pretty tired.  The HSQs are 30 years old.  Is the Outpost still running in its current state?  That needs to be replaced.  Snowmaking was adequate on a few main routes, but, like Burke, intended to supplement natural snow on other runs.  Base facilities were pretty tired.  A lot of trails have not been really maintained and allowed to grow back in.  The summer is pretty much the alpine slide (again, unless that changed).  Great location.  Good location for housing at the base, but again, pretty dated.  

Burke has newer lifts--2011 HSQ, 2005 HSQ.  Snowmaking has been slowly upgraded but opens a few main routes.  No crowds. Trails and glades are maintained.  New Hotel.  A variety of condos...in various states.  Easier access for Hartford, Boston, Montreal, SNH (considering that there is no Route 4).  Colder.  

Only considering them on their own....you have one that is in better shape infrastructure-wise but less business.  The other has more business but is quite dated.  Both pretty equal in many ways.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2018)

Wall Street Journal publishes op-ed on the belief EB-5 should be killed.

GOOD.  I hope it is.  As I've been writing here since 2011, it's an un-American, Petri dish for corruption.


*No More Pay-to-Play Green Cards*
_The EB-5 Regional Center program is a bipartisan source of corruption and cronyism. Let it die._



> Here’s a change to immigration policy on which Americans of both parties ought to agree: Congress should allow the EB-5 Regional Center Program to expire on schedule at the end of September.
> 
> Created in 1992, the EB-5 program—short for “employment-based, fifth-preference visas”—grants green cards to foreign nationals who invest $1 million in an American business that creates at least 10 jobs. The minimum investment for visa eligibility drops to $500,000 if the project benefits a rural area or a place with high unemployment. For years the program received temporary extensions—usually tucked into must-pass spending bills such as the March 2018 omnibus—despite well-documented fraud and national-security concerns. There is scant evidence the program produces economic benefits.
> 
> ...



https://www.wsj.com/articles/no-more-pay-to-play-green-cards-1537310970


----------



## bdfreetuna (Sep 21, 2018)

Pico gets more snow on average than Burke, although Burke sometimes holds on to it better (as has been mentioned).

It's not rare for Killington Peak & Pico to get some of the highest individual storm totals in Vermont. Not very often is Burke in the bullseye, but it happens (if you're willing to overlook Jay Peak).


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## thetrailboss (Sep 21, 2018)

The "don't ask any questions" line here will come as no surprise to many of you:

https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/20/eb-5-chief-repeatedly-shut-efforts-audit-jay-peak/


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 22, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> The "don't ask any questions" line here will come as no surprise to many of you:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/20/eb-5-chief-repeatedly-shut-efforts-audit-jay-peak/




There is so much in this article that is just either amazingly corrupt, factually incorrect and/or egregiously irresponsible financially, or mindbogglingly Mayberry dumb.  

I'm legitimately astounded.  And that's coming from someone who's been a critic of this from Day #1.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2018)

Jay Peak has decided to throw a party!  ..... For Bill Stenger.  And apparently Steven Wright had no idea that he is getting stuck with the bill!

https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/23/party-jay-peak-celebrate-stengers-70th-birthday/


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay Peak has decided to throw a party!  ..... For Bill Stenger.  And apparently Steven Wright had no idea that he is getting stuck with the bill!
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/23/party-jay-peak-celebrate-stengers-70th-birthday/



Funny.  Surprised that you didn't post this one:  https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/23/governors-office-agency-attorneys-dispute-release-eb-5-records-2/


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2018)

The response to VTD blowing Bill’s BDay Party:  https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/24/stenger-backers-upset-blown-surprise-birthday-bash/


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## VTKilarney (Sep 24, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> The response to VTD blowing Bill’s BDay Party:  https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/24/stenger-backers-upset-blown-surprise-birthday-bash/


Stenger may really like surprises.  He surprised lots of EB-5 investors, after all.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2018)

A birthday party for Bill Stenger, held at Jay Peak.

The lack of self-awareness these people demonstrate is truly mind-boggling.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2018)

> *“I never asked for quarterly financial reports when I worked as director because if you can’t get an audit done, you know, what are the chances of getting a quarterly report?” *- B. Raymond


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## thetrailboss (Sep 25, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> A birthday party for Bill Stenger, held at Jay Peak.
> 
> The lack of self-awareness these people demonstrate is truly mind-boggling.



Exactly.  How dare VTD question what happens up there.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 26, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  How dare VTD question what happens up there.



Well it seems kinda petty and somewhat slanderous when they bury the fact that Jay isn't paying for it 8 paragraphs in. 

I mean, does the guy have to move before he can show his face anywhere again? He's paid his debt right?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Well it seems kinda petty and somewhat slanderous when they bury the fact that Jay isn't paying for it 8 paragraphs in.
> 
> I mean, does the guy have to move before he can show his face anywhere again? He's paid his debt right?



Has he?  Has there been a criminal proceeding?  

And there is nothing there that is not true.  There is no slander.  

And the article makes it clear that they could not figure out who was paying for it.  

Also, I agree with the statement that there is little or no self-awareness on the part of the folks up there.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 26, 2018)

It is bad optics, plain and simple.  Jay Peak, under Stenger's watch, victimized a LOT of people.  Yes, the development is a good thing.  But there was a price that was paid for that development.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> It is bad optics, plain and simple.  Jay Peak, under Stenger's watch, victimized a LOT of people.  Yes, the development is a good thing.  But there was a price that was paid for that development.



Agreed.  I get that Stenger's life was Jay Peak, but sometimes one needs to use some discretion.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Nov 10, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Agreed.  I get that Stenger's life was Jay Peak, but sometimes one needs to use some discretion.



Jay got 1/2 foot at base, more higher.
Hiked for turns, definitely a work out, but was a lot of fun.
Sun peeked out at noon time.
Snow makers are about and will be running guns tonight.

Stoked for a great year at Jay!


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## Sick Bird Rider (Nov 26, 2018)

Stop the press! Toss all that EB-5 stuff, this is really important news. One of my astute relatives has noticed a disturbing update to the Jay  Peak trail map. The much loved (and occasionally hated) run Powerline has been renamed. THIS is a bombshell. The  upper section is now called "601" and the lower section is ""Micky." Over-reacting as usual, I posted a query on the JPR Facebook page and got a quick reply from Steve Wright:



> 601  was Peg (Doheny’s) call number on the radio since the dawn of radio  (well 43 yrs). Micky refers to Micky Doheny and his 45 years. The only  way to travel the whole of the former, and blithely named if benign,  Powerline, is to ride 601 to Micky. This  line, incidentally, is something that was transmitted over the radio  thousands of times over their 80 aggregated year career as Peg seemed to  be forever wondering about Mick’s whereabouts. Given it was Peg’s fave  trail, we thought the rename to be proper.



And after my suggestion for an interpretive plaque, this:



> We have a nice story on the last page of the mag for starters and a bunch other things planned incl the plaque.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 26, 2018)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> The *upper section *is now called "601" and the *lower section* is ""Micky."



So there's 80 trails now instead of 79?


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## Sick Bird Rider (Nov 27, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> So there's 80 trails now instead of 79?



Trail counters always round up.


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## tnt1234 (Nov 29, 2018)

Not tying to start a political argument, but anyone find Stenger's speech pattern in the court transcripts similar to trumps?  I was reading som transcripts related to today's news and they reminded my of Stenger.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2018)

tnt1234 said:


> *Not tying to start a political argument*


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## mbedle (Nov 30, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


>



LOL - that was a good one.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2018)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/J...-snow-continues-to-court-buyer-501663251.html


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## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2018)

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...cle_3bde6781-c7e3-543a-8e40-39de4d60b542.html


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## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2019)

Big news....get your checkbooks out.  

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...Jhy6y67WKH95bZVX1XS2e1M6Dqf2KTpq5OCH-aof2JaGE

Sell high....


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## TheArchitect (Jan 4, 2019)

Someone send that link to Alterra.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2019)

Whelp......    Goodbye Jay Peak, we had a lot of great times over the last few decades.  I'll miss you.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2019)

TheArchitect said:


> Someone send that link to *Alterra.*



I predict Alterra is going to be the acquirer.     

They already own Tremblant, so the tie-in there would be a stranglehold on the Quebecois market of roughly 3M people.  An ancillary benefit is that it would also help pull vacationing Americans north to Tremblant.

It also works geographically with VT, as all they own in VT is Stratton, which is a much different demo than Jay.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 5, 2019)

I agree.  From my POV, uneducated as it is in these things, it makes a lot of sense for Alterra.  Personally I want it because I like the mountains on the Ikon pass and plan to continue to buy it.  The only NE mountain I'd want added to it is Jay.  If Alterra adds Jay then I might make the jump from the base pass to the full pass.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I predict Alterra is going to be the acquirer.
> 
> They already own Tremblant, so the tie-in there would be a stranglehold on the Quebecois market of roughly 3M people.  An ancillary benefit is that it would also help pull vacationing Americans north to Tremblant.
> 
> It also works geographically with VT, as all they own in VT is Stratton, which is a much different demo than Jay.



Maybe, but do they have the capital to take it on?  They just took on Solitude and from my observations and conversations things aren't going so well there.  Not much snowmaking going on.  Maybe it is a learning curve.


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## machski (Jan 5, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe, but do they have the capital to take it on?  They just took on Solitude and from my observations and conversations things aren't going so well there.  Not much snowmaking going on.  Maybe it is a learning curve.


Do they have the CapEx, I would say unequivocally yes.  The question is how they choose to utilize it.  Take as an example, Steamboat.  They just did a huge upgrade/refurb of the Gondola and now this summer they are scrapping the whole thing and replacing it completely.  So they obviously have the capital, just not sure buying another area is in the cards of using it.  

Anyone buying Jay will have concerns with the lift system.  It needs a lot of work and if you dig in, the snowmaking system needs a big upgrade too (especially if you err on the side of warmer winters).  Lodging and extras are there already, but I feel a new owner would see the need for substantial CapEx after purchase.  We will see how the chips fall.  

The X factor could be for one of the big players to own the Snow Capital of the East.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe, but do they have the capital to take it on?  *They just took on Solitude and from my observations and conversations things aren't going so well there.  Not much snowmaking going on. * Maybe it is a learning curve.



But real estate isnt like most purchases, you can only buy it when there's an opportunity to buy it, and that opportunity may never present itself again.  So even if they were in a situation where they buy it, and had to keep it status quo for 3, 4, 7 years, I think that's enough.  Most of the amenities are new, and the reality is Jay Peak is better isolated from snowmaking issues than most.  The lift system at Jay Peak is pretty poor though, I agree with machski there.  Spending millions to refurb that aging relic to the summit didnt help either, such a shame, that was the opportunity for beneficial change IMO, but obviously with their "situation" they had no choice but to fix it.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> But real estate isnt like most purchases, you can only buy it when there's an opportunity to buy it, and that opportunity may never present itself again.  So even if they were in a situation where they buy it, and had to keep it status quo for 3, 4, 7 years, I think that's enough.  Most of the amenities are new, and the reality is Jay Peak is better isolated from snowmaking issues than most.  The lift system at Jay Peak is pretty poor though, I agree with machski there.  Spending millions to refurb that aging relic to the summit didnt help either, such a shame, that was the opportunity for beneficial change IMO, but obviously with their "situation" they had no choice but to fix it.



Interesting that it looks like Jay and Burke will be separated.  Probably because Jay is more “complete” whereas Burke needs work to make it sustainable.


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## ss20 (Jan 5, 2019)

Large demographic...established slopeside real estate/hotels/overpriced "extras" for guests to buy...sounds like a Vail Resort to me...

Vail is readying its self for crappy winters to hit any of its geographic areas.  Was it two years ago when the East was skiing arguably better than most of the West???  Jay is probably the only place west coast skiers would bother visiting anyway if they had an Epic pass...I say Vail pulls the trigger.  

As far as lifts go, replacing the 5,000ft Bonnie with a HSQ is chump change for Vail.


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## skitheeast45 (Jan 8, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe, but do they have the capital to take it on?  They just took on Solitude and from my observations and conversations things aren't going so well there.  Not much snowmaking going on.  Maybe it is a learning curve.



Alterra has plenty of capital as the owners have deep pockets. Vail had a bad financial report about one month ago and I think they would prefer to spend their dollars integrating Stevens/Triple Peak with new lifts, lodges, etc. Alterra already has a strong foot in the Quebec market with Tremblant, and they know the mountain has been more crowded this season with the Ikon Pass (I was there last week and can verify the lines were historically long and management blamed Ikon). Giving an alternative option in Jay would be beneficial. Additionally, they only own one NE mountain (Stratton) while Vail owns three (Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee). Alterra knows they could use another couple mountains, so I think they are the ultimate buyers.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 8, 2019)

skitheeast45 said:


> Alterra has plenty of capital as the owners have deep pockets. Vail had a bad financial report about one month ago and I think they would prefer to spend their dollars integrating Stevens/Triple Peak with new lifts, lodges, etc. Alterra already has a strong foot in the Quebec market with Tremblant, and they know the mountain has been more crowded this season with the Ikon Pass (I was there last week and can verify the lines were historically long and management blamed Ikon). Giving an alternative option in Jay would be beneficial. Additionally, they only own one NE mountain (Stratton) while Vail owns three (Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee). Alterra knows they could use another couple mountains, so I think they are the ultimate buyers.



Just read this:  https://unofficialnetworks.com/2019...wntXXE0pAt9sdhZfLoowkNUm10KBLtyKLYS2ZcG2nxSPU

Take it with a grain of salt.  

They too point out that Vail had a rough year.  Seems Alterra would be more likely.

Nobody seems to mention Boyne as a potential contender.  Although it would suck traffic away from Sugarloaf I would think.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2019)

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...TaoBNB_ByQ9N5BO0mfOyR7kP6Lo8XrDAgtTXdu9cwKSLc


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2019)

> *The sale of Burke Mountain Resort will be later due to the need for job creation through the EB-5 program*



LOL; sure, that's why.


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## NYDB (Jan 10, 2019)

I though the idea last year was to package them (Jay and Burke) together so that Burke would be sold.  Otherwise, who would be a willing buyer for Burke as a stand alone Mtn?

Is it producing a profit? or has it in the last 5 years?  

Does the Mountain Academy have enough $ to buy it?


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2019)

NY DirtBag said:


> I though the idea last year was to package them (Jay and Burke) together so that Burke would be sold.  Otherwise, who would be a willing buyer for Burke as a stand alone Mtn?
> 
> Is it producing a profit? or has it in the last 5 years?
> 
> Does the Mountain Academy have enough $ to buy it?



The reason for separating them is that Burke is still not "there" yet as to the EB-5 obligations in order to get the investors ther green cards, pay them back, and make the resort free and clear of the whole EB-5 issue.  

As to profit, it is a private entity, so we do not know for sure.  It is widely accepted that they have not made a profit in the last few years.  Q has owned it the last five years and I think that there has not been any profit during that time.  Q scared away a lot of business.  

And does BMA have the money?  They, as in BMA proper, does not.  But those affiliated with BMA have a lot of $$$$.  As to would "BMA buy it", we can go back to the future...or go back to 2000 when they did.  But with that huge hotel it is much less likely that would work or be viable.  

Obviously the receiver is leaning on BMA to help him find a deep pocket to take it all over.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2019)

An article in today's newspaper said that Jay Peak has to sell for $250 million in order for the investors to be made whole.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> An article in today's newspaper said that *Jay Peak has to sell for $250 million *in order for the investors to be made whole.



Well that's not happening.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> An article in today's newspaper said that Jay Peak has to sell for $250 million in order for the investors to be made whole.



Wow, just wow.  To put this in perspective, Vail bought Okemo, the Sunapee lease, AND Crested Butte for $82 million to Triple Peaks, and $155 million to the REIT land owners (total of $237 million for THREE resorts).

https://vtdigger.org/2018/06/04/vail-resorts-buys-okemo-82-million-deal/

Vail bought Stowe's mountain operations for $50 million.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2019)

Apparently the Burlington Free Press originated the story.  Here is a quote from the local newspaper:
_"The Burlington Free Press reports appointed receiver Michael Goldberg would need a sale price of $250 million to recoup funds for the investors."_

This should be a sobering wake-up call to the people that excused Quiros and Stenger because things got built.  This is a very high probability that there are going to be some real victims here.

I misspoke earlier.  The article in the local newspaper ran yesterday, not today.


----------



## benski (Jan 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, just wow.  To put this in perspective, Vail bought Okemo, the Sunapee lease, AND Crested Butte for $82 million to Triple Peaks, and $155 million to the REIT land owners (total of $237 million for THREE resorts).
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/06/04/vail-resorts-buys-okemo-82-million-deal/
> 
> Vail bought Stowe's mountain operations for $50 million.



Crested Butte and Sunnapee are located on government land. Crested butte only owns the base area. What this shows is the base area is worth a whole lot more than a ski area. Owning a ski area with a base could be a lot more valuable. Is Okemo ski area on Public land. 250 still sounds very high for Jay. That would be a 28 price to earnings ratio.


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2019)

Apparently last year their EBITA was about 10 million. Historically, unless some major over bidding buying war takes place, sale prices are often in the 8-10x EBITA range.

I doubt even a Vail vs Alterra bidding war could get to even half of that 250 million figure mentioned

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## thetrailboss (Jan 17, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Apparently last year their EBITA was about 10 million. Historically, unless some major over bidding buying war takes place, sale prices are often in the 8-10x EBITA range.
> 
> I doubt even a Vail vs Alterra bidding war could get to even half of that 250 million figure mentioned
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



Perhaps the signal that the receiver meant to send was to the investors to set expectations and prepare them for losing a significant amount of their investment.  Based upon what you said I’d have a hard time seeing it being worth more than $100 million considering the condition it is in with the dated ski infrastructure.  They can call it what they want but it is primarily a ski area.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2019)

drjeff said:


> * last year their EBITA was about 10 million.*



Let's put it this way.   

Vail paid 15x EBITDA for Whistler/Blackcomb, which I would guess was one of the priciest acquisitions in ski industry history.   That said, Whister/Blackcomb _*is*_ one of the premier ski properties in all of North America, so although Vail "overpaid", they clearly wanted it.

Were Vail to overpay in the same valuation range of 15x earnings, that gets you about $150M, still $100M short of the $250M bogey.  And Jay Peak aint no' Whistler/Blackcomb.

As I said before, that's not happening.


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Perhaps the signal that the receiver meant to send was to the investors to set expectations and prepare them for losing a significant amount of their investment.  Based upon what you said I’d have a hard time seeing it being worth more than $100 million considering the condition it is in with the dated ski infrastructure.  They can call it what they want but it is primarily a ski area.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Not totally sure of the distinction of Jay being primarily a ski area.... I have a few non skier friends, who are BIG hockey families, and as long as they have a kid playing hockey between about age 8 and age 16 or 17, they're always going up to Jay at least twice a year, and often not in prime ski season, for hockey tournaments, and also rave about the waterpark. The ice rink + waterpark combo is a BIG year round draw for the resort as well.... If it was just the golf course, well, that's not a major draw. The ice rink + waterpark is a big draw given the passionate Northeast and Canadian hockey population

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## benski (Jan 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Let's put it this way.
> 
> Vail paid 15x EBITDA for Whistler/Blackcomb, which I would guess was one of the priciest acquisitions in ski industry history.   That said, Whister/Blackcomb _*is*_ one of the premier ski properties in all of North America, so although Vail "overpaid", they clearly wanted it.
> 
> ...



Well Q management was notable for being bad, aside from the fraud. Goldberg is better but if I remember correctly he is a lawyer who lives in Florida, so still probably not the best person to run your ski area. To someone who knows the industry well this might be an relatively easy ski area to make more profitable.


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## mister moose (Jan 18, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> This should be a sobering wake-up call to the people that excused Quiros and Stenger because things got built.  This is a very high probability that there are going to be some real victims here.


Wake up call?  There was never a chance all the investors were getting paid back.  The hole in the ground  ANC Bio was exhibit A of that.




benski said:


> Well Q management was notable for being bad, aside from the fraud. Goldberg is better but if I remember correctly he is a lawyer who lives in Florida, so still probably not the best person to run your ski area. To someone who knows the industry well this might be an relatively easy ski area to make more profitable.



Goldberg is settling creditor claims, suing brokerage firms, finishing the viable projects and providing a legal context to keep the lights on.  Stenger and Wright are still there running the place.  I'm expecting the market to base the purchase price primarily on recent performance with a close eye on infrastructure.  The ice rink, golf course, and hockey rink just add to the complete earnings picture.  It's about value.  It has to be, because you don't have location.

If I was looking at  running the place I'd be a little concerned about what I'm going to call the "Atlantic City Effect".  If anyone builds a waterpark closer to NYC or Montreal, Jay will suffer.  The Jay Cloud is the primary product up there.
​


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## fbrissette (Jan 18, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Let's put it this way.
> 
> Vail paid 15x EBITDA for Whistler/Blackcomb, which I would guess was one of the priciest acquisitions in ski industry history.   That said, Whister/Blackcomb _*is*_ one of the premier ski properties in all of North America, so although Vail "overpaid", they clearly wanted it.
> 
> ...




The number that is being tossed around (including by Goldberg himself) is that they expect Jay Peak to go for around 80-100 millions.  The remaining investors should therefore expect to get back 30 cents on the dollar.


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## MG Skier (Jan 18, 2019)

I'll check and see if there is a For Sale sign on route 242 tomorrow.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2019)

There are several indoor waterparks that are closer to New York. But you make a good point about Montreal. For some reason, the indoor waterpark phenomenon has not caught on in Quebec.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> There are several indoor waterparks that are closer to New York. But you make a good point about Montreal. For some reason, the indoor waterpark phenomenon has not caught on in Quebec.



Yup...and soon there will be one a mere 8 miles from NYC (if it finally opens).


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## benski (Jan 18, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yup...and soon there will be one a mere 8 miles from NYC (if it finally opens).



That place is never going to open. They have been saying that for as long as I can remember. Camelbacks is always advertising ski and indoor water park packages on TV in the winter.


----------



## cdskier (Jan 18, 2019)

benski said:


> That place is never going to open. They have been saying that for as long as I can remember. Camelbacks is always advertising ski and indoor water park packages on TV in the winter.



Well they're now owned by the same company that owns the Mall of America. Construction restarted and significant progress has been made in the last year and they are now back on target to actually open this year. Whether it will be successful and stay open is an entirely different story though. I have my doubts about that part...


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## mister moose (Jan 18, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> There are several indoor waterparks that are closer to New York.



Sorry, I thought the implied "anyone" meaning any VT/NH significant_ ski resort_ was more apparent.  Similar to mountain biking, alpine slides, zip lines and golf, if you're the only one offering it (As part of the ski resort) you have a real draw.  Everybody has a golf course now.  Nobody says, "Let's buy a Jay condo and become lifers because of the GOLF!

As long as Jay holds court on skiing, ice rink & waterparks, they will have a unique offering.  Stratton builds a waterpark?  Game changer in that respect.  Jay is back to 355 inches and a tram.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2019)

fbrissette said:


> The number that is being tossed around (including by Goldberg himself) is that *they expect Jay Peak to go for around 80-100 millions. * The remaining investors should therefore expect to get back 30 cents on the dollar.



That would be the likely range based on EBITDA, so it makes sense.  And I'd speculate there's probably solid upside once you boot Stenger and co. and get an expert management team in place who'll be fat trimmers & margin assassins.



mister moose said:


> Nobody says, *"Let's buy a Jay condo* and become lifers because of the GOLF!



I've met 2 folks on the lifts the last few years who each own up there, and both told me they regret the purchase due to the taxes.  When the first guy told me his tax bill I almost fell off the chair lift.   He's been trying to sell it and was having a devil of a time trying to get rid of it.  

The Jay Peak golf course is really nice though!



VTKilarney said:


> *For some reason, the indoor waterpark phenomenon has not caught on in Quebec.*



Weird, right?   It's seems like the PERFECT market for this.   

A large metro population in a region that experiences a long winter period, and which is surrounded by (relatively) cheap land.  For example, once you cross the Richlieu River it's farmland galore only 30 minutes from Montreal.

I predict someone builds a water park up there in the next few years, it makes too much sense.


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## mbedle (Jan 19, 2019)

Maybe I am doing the math wrong and obviously taking ballpark guesses at what money is left, but:

Phase 1 investors - paid in full (will not benefit from Jay or Burke sale)
Phase 6 investors - debt free, but tied to Burke (will not benefit from Jay sale)
Phase 7 investors - paid back (will not benefit from Jay or Burke sale)
Phase 2 though 5 investors - Will benefit from sale of Jay Peak

Raymond James Settlement = 15 million Phase 1 (pay off investors), 67 million Phase 7 (pay off investors), 20 million Phase 6 (finish courts and cottages), 5 million Phases 2 - 5 (pay off debt). Remaining escrow funds 30 Million
Citi Bank Settlement = 13.3 million (not sure what is left of this settlement, pretty sure it went to keeping Burke afloat and repairing tram)
Insurance Settlement = 1.9 million (not sure what is left)
Stenger and Quiros Penalties = 3.5 million
Quiros disgorgement properties/assets outside of Jay Peak and Burke = 15 million (really big guess)
Approximate total funds in escrow for Phase 2 - 5 investors = 50 million
Sale of Jay Peak = 100 million. 
Number of Phase 2 - 5 investors = 529
Payback amount - $283,553 each. 

The hard part I am having is figuring out how much Vail truly paid for the three Triple Peaks resorts. In effect, they paid 72 million for the three resorts (with no assets) and 155 million to the asset owner and lease holder. The difficult part is trying to figure out what part of the 155 million was for the physical assets (land, buildings, etc.) and what part was for paying off the leases. It's also hard to put a number of what value the 1,000's of acres that Jay Peak owns, including the west bowl area.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Maybe I am doing the math wrong and obviously taking ballpark guesses at what money is left, but:
> 
> Phase 1 investors - paid in full (will not benefit from Jay or Burke sale)
> Phase 6 investors - debt free, but tied to Burke (will not benefit from Jay sale)
> ...



Vail paid $155 million to buy the land and infrastructure.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 19, 2019)

The BFP Article:

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...an-go-250-million-repay-investors/2528411002/


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 13, 2019)

this isn't thread worthy on its own, so this felt the most appropriate thread for this:

just received word on pretty good authority that the disco biscuits are playing jay peak this summer, either weekend of 7/27, 8/3, or 8/10. 

government mule will be one of those 3 weekends as well.

this is probably relevant to ~5 of you. but i'm pretty stoked for a summer weekend in jay with my favorite band and a trip to hill farmstead.

anyone know if stateside hotel is free cancellation? would love to lock down all three weekends without committing $


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## thetrailboss (May 23, 2019)

Bump.  

The Feds have filed charges as to ONLY the AnCBio Project scam.  They charged Stenger, Q, Bill Kelly, and a perviously unknown "silent" partner in South Korea who (surprise, surprise) is at large.  

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/Charges-Coming-in-Kingdom-Con-510222141.html


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## BenedictGomez (May 23, 2019)

> *"Vermonters are trusting people"* - U.S. Attorney for Vermont Christina Nolan



Ooooh, the Vermont Attorney said the quiet part out loud.   I wasn't expecting that.

 Thankfully she used a relatively soft adjective there.


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## thetrailboss (May 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ooooh, the Vermont Attorney said the quiet part out loud.   I wasn't expecting that.
> 
> Thankfully she used a relatively soft adjective there.



Sad, but true, observation.


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2019)

And *three years* after the SEC action commenced, Stenger is finally let go from Jay/Burke.  

https://vtdigger.org/2019/05/31/jay...KkEygP-JfkGy-28Jb1Uzf45yPCd7flXdvOZJMcKbee58g


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## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2019)

Bump.  

What a joke.

https://vtdigger.org/2019/08/27/sta...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-ef4f0a893f-405558657

"Russia, if you're listening, I hope you are able to find the [four months] of Emails that are missing!"






:lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2019)

Illinois & New Jersey better watch their back, Vermont's making a strong push for the title of, _"Most Corrupt State in America"_.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Illinois & New Jersey better watch their back, Vermont's making a strong push for the title of, _"Most Corrupt State in America"_.



What is particularly disconcerting is that Vermonters actually believe that because it is a "small" state that folks can be trusted, and that there is "good government" in Vermont.  Anyone who follows Vermont news in the last few years has no doubt seen that there is a rampant problem with people embezzling money in Vermont--from small towns, companies, employers, and other entities.  

https://www.vpr.org/post/why-vermont-such-hotbed-embezzlement#stream/0

With this matter, those in power should have seen this as a "time out" moment to make sure that those who were responsible were held accountable and that Vermonters and others would see that the system "worked."  Instead, perhaps because of Q's perniciousness, many in the Vermont government were at least very badly played.  The fact that we are seeing evidence "go missing" only adds to the perception that those in power realize that this was a very big problem and that the way to handle it is to run away.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> *What is particularly disconcerting is that Vermonters actually believe that because it is a "small" state that folks can be trusted, and that there is "good government" in Vermont.*  Anyone who follows Vermont news in the last few years has no doubt seen that there is a rampant problem with people embezzling money in Vermont--from small towns, companies, employers, and other entities.



I'm well aware of this given the savagery I took on this board prior to the Jay Peak scandal breaking when I predicted there was a crime going on vis-a-vis what little information was publicly available regarding finance & accounting methods/occurrences.   Those people, of course, have since disappeared to another dimension through a wormhole.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 28, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm well aware of this given the savagery I took on this board prior to the Jay Peak scandal breaking when I predicted there was a crime going on vis-a-vis what little information was publicly available regarding finance & accounting methods/occurrences.   Those people, of course, have since disappeared to another dimension through a wormhole.



I will admit to not wanting to be cynical initially, but the more I saw the more I began to get more concerned....


----------



## mbedle (Aug 29, 2019)

I hear what you guys are saying, but what data exist that supports that Vermont has an embezzlement problem?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I hear what you guys are saying, but what data exist that supports that Vermont has an embezzlement problem?



Cough, cough



> What is particularly disconcerting is that Vermonters actually believe that because it is a "small" state that folks can be trusted, and that there is "good government" in Vermont. Anyone who follows Vermont news in the last few years has no doubt seen that there is a rampant problem with people embezzling money in Vermont--from small towns, companies, employers, and other entities.
> 
> https://www.vpr.org/post/why-vermont...ement#stream/0



See also:

https://vermontbiz.com/news/january/vermont-tops-list-highest-risk-states-embezzlement

https://vtdigger.org/tag/embezzlement/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikam...ly-to-embezzle-and-who-they-are/#2f6979021c3a

https://www.securitymagazine.com/ar...als-highest-rate-of-employee-theft-in-6-years

https://www.timesargus.com/news/vt-...cle_6e842116-e1ed-5013-9957-997a3be3cdae.html

Is that enough to suggest that there is a problem?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 29, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Cough, cough
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unfortunately no, I do not put too much weight on a bunch of articles summarizing a half ass report written in 2013, by a half ass company. Check out the author's greatest achievement: http://www.checkoutyourpartner.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 29, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Unfortunately no, I do not put too much weight on a bunch of articles summarizing a half ass report written in 2013, by a half ass company. Check out the author's greatest achievement: http://www.checkoutyourpartner.com



Sounds like you did not read past the first article.  FWIW there are some credible news outlets there that all say the same thing--VT Digger, Forbes, Times Argus are all reputable outlets.  

Look again.  I think you will see that it is a real problem.  But since you didn't read or look into it, here is a small sample of some of these cases that have come to light:

*Small town utility employee steals $1.26 million over a ten year period;
*Now former State employee admits to submitting over $100,000 in false reimbursements;
*Ira town clerk embezzles $400,000 over a multi-year period;
*Coventry town clerk embezzles $1.4 million from town over a decade;
*Another state employee charged with stealing identities and taking $15,000 in tax return money;
*Another state employee took $490,000 from welfare funds to be used for her clients;
*Another state employee used settlement fund to buy $217,000 in goods for herself such as a boat and guitar;
*In August 2019 a DMV employee charged with embezzling cash deposits she handled for the office.  

Do I need to go on?


----------



## Dickc (Aug 29, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like you did not read past the first article.  FWIW there are some credible news outlets there that all say the same thing--VT Digger, Forbes, Times Argus are all reputable outlets.
> 
> Look again.  I think you will see that it is a real problem.  But since you didn't read or look into it, here is a small sample of some of these cases that have come to light:
> 
> ...



They sound like Mass employees .  Only in Mass, they do that in a year or less.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I hear what you guys are saying, but what data exist that supports that Vermont has an embezzlement problem?



Seriously?   You need to get an education by going back & reading about 5 years worth of posts here.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 29, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> *Do I need to go on?*



The Jay Peak example is so large & staggering that that's all you actually need.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 30, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> The Jay Peak example is so large & staggering that that's all you actually need.



And therein lies the problem. The old one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 30, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like you did not read past the first article.  FWIW there are some credible news outlets there that all say the same thing--VT Digger, Forbes, Times Argus are all reputable outlets.
> 
> Look again.  I think you will see that it is a real problem.  But since you didn't read or look into it, here is a small sample of some of these cases that have come to light:
> 
> ...



LOL - everyone of those articles (except for the VT Digger embezzlement search link) is just a chewed up and spit back out again summary of the Marquet Report, with absolutely no independent thought or evaluation of the data.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 30, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Unfortunately no, I do not put too much weight on a bunch of articles summarizing a half ass report written in 2013, by a half ass company. Check out the author's greatest achievement: http://www.checkoutyourpartner.com





mbedle said:


> LOL - everyone of those articles (except for the VT Digger embezzlement search link) is just a chewed up and spit back out again summary of the Marquet Report, with absolutely no independent thought or evaluation of the data.



Even if you have an issue with the report itself being "half ass", what about the specific examples cited? Are they not real or not relevant for some reason just because they were part of that report? (Although they weren't even all part of that report)



thetrailboss said:


> *Small town utility employee steals $1.26 million over a ten year period;
> *Now former State employee admits to submitting over $100,000 in false reimbursements;
> *Ira town clerk embezzles $400,000 over a multi-year period;
> *Coventry town clerk embezzles $1.4 million from town over a decade;
> ...


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Even if you have an issue with the report itself being "half ass", what about the specific examples cited? Are they not real or not relevant for some reason just because they were part of that report? (Although they weren't even all part of that report)



I'm no statistician, so I cannot comment on whether the report's conclusion and, in particular, it's trademarked (!) "Embezzlement Propensity Factor" are supported by the data, but a few examples of embezzlement and other financial fraud by committed by people in Vermont do not, by themselves, support a conclusion that people in Vermont are more disposed to commit financial crimes than people in other states.  If the report is, as mbedle claims, half-assed, then the enumerated examples, while egregious, do not support any particular conclusion about the criminal tendencies of Vermont people.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Even if you have an issue with the report itself being "half ass", what about the specific examples cited? Are they not real or not relevant for some reason just because they were part of that report? (Although they weren't even all part of that report)



Yes, I can acknowledge that the cases listed did indeed occur in Vermont. My point was to state that I don't believe that Vermont's citizens are more prone to or that the occurrence of embezzlement is any greater than any other state. Its all good and I love a good discussion no matter what the outcome may be.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I don't believe that Vermont's citizens are more prone to or that the occurrence of embezzlement is any greater than any other state.



It's not the "citizens" you have to worry about, it's the government employees, plus the backwoods laissez-faire 1920s-style financial controls (term used loosely here) that are in place.


----------



## Zand (Aug 30, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/08/30/barre-man-accused-of-embezzling-funds-from-vtrans/

Just saw that pop up and thought of this thread lol.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 30, 2019)

Zand said:


> https://vtdigger.org/2019/08/30/barre-man-accused-of-embezzling-funds-from-vtrans/
> 
> Just saw that pop up and thought of this thread lol.



Absolutely amazing timing.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 31, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Absolutely amazing timing.



So True. lol

Edit - lets be honest, it was only $1,000....


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2019)

mbedle said:


> So True. lol
> 
> Edit - lets be honest, it was only $1,000....



It's still wrong.  And still demonstrates my point [regrettably   ]


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2019)

mbedle said:


> And therein lies the problem. The old one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.



There are a hell of a lot of bad apples.


----------



## Not Sure (Sep 1, 2019)

mbedle said:


> So True. lol
> 
> Edit - lets be honest, it was only $1,000....




Not really.

"The investigation found Johnson had made other purchases outside of the ones he is being charged with, but due to the statute of limitations, is not being criminally charged for those purchases."

Seems he's been doing this for a while and nobody noticed!


----------



## cdskier (Sep 3, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Yes, I can acknowledge that the cases listed did indeed occur in Vermont. My point was to state that I don't believe that Vermont's citizens are more prone to or that the occurrence of embezzlement is any greater than any other state. Its all good and I love a good discussion no matter what the outcome may be.



Fair point, but to me I still think it is fair to say that Vermont has a problem. Whether that problem is worse than other states or not isn't that important (to me at least). Best analogy I can come up with would be something like this: If 1 house in my neighborhood is broken into, ok, isolated incident. Two houses could be a coincidence. Three or more and now to me there's a problem. That rate still may be far below neighborhoods of Newark, but that doesn't mean I should not worry about it. I can still take proactive actions now to address what is happening in my area (lock my doors, install an alarm system, etc) and shouldn't wait until some statistics somewhere say that it is worse than other areas.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2019)

Unreal.  

https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/03/new...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-1667f4611e-405558657


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Unreal.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/03/new...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-1667f4611e-405558657



Not shocking.  Senator Leahy is elbow-deep in this saga & now pleads ignorance.  This bit's great:



> _there are no Leahy communications provided by the AG’s office after 2014, when investors began pressuring the state to take action against the developers._


   Must be in the same place as Hillary Clinton's hard drive!

But of course you know I'm partial to the bit relating to Brett Raymond, my favorite character in this entire mess.



> _“The VT Digger article is reverberating in China,”_ Raymond wrote to the Leahy staffers in his email._ “Competing RCs {regional centers} are using it against us and our projects.”_



Literally the exact _OPPOSITE_ of his job.  

 I've said it 101 times on this board, but how Brett Raymond hasn't been investigated in all this is completely beyond me.  It's the sole remaining, "Keystone Cops" unanswered part of this puzzle for me.   The State of Vermont EB-5 Center is the glue that held the entire scam together, and for the life of me I dont understand why nobody seems to understand this!


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 6, 2019)

Vail is not interested in Jay, but Alterra and these others are:

https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/05/vai...tors-eye-jay-peak-as-sale-process-presses-on/

It looks like Jay will take a massive tax hit.  From the article: _The town of Jay has the resort assessed on the grand list at $124 million. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, during a May 2016 court hearing, valued Jay Peak at $42 million, based on average profits._


----------



## machski (Sep 6, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Vail is not interested in Jay, but Alterra and these others are:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/05/vai...tors-eye-jay-peak-as-sale-process-presses-on/
> 
> It looks like Jay will take a massive tax hit.  From the article: _The town of Jay has the resort assessed on the grand list at $124 million. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, during a May 2016 court hearing, valued Jay Peak at $42 million, based on average profits._


Given the pending Peaks buy, Vail will own outright 7 resorts in New England alone.  They not having interest in Jay does not surprise me.  Another buy, especially in VT, would increase any Anti-Trust scrutiny.  From a selfish side, would love to see Alterra buy them and add to Ikon with a second unlimited area in NE.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## urungus (Sep 6, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Vail is not interested in Jay, but Alterra and these others are:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/05/vai...tors-eye-jay-peak-as-sale-process-presses-on/
> 
> It looks like Jay will take a massive tax hit.  From the article: _The town of Jay has the resort assessed on the grand list at $124 million. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, during a May 2016 court hearing, valued Jay Peak at $42 million, based on average profits._



LOL ... The article says that “Vale” is not interested, but “Ultara” might be


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Vail is not interested in Jay, but Alterra and these others are:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/05/vai...tors-eye-jay-peak-as-sale-process-presses-on/
> 
> It looks like Jay will take a massive tax hit.  From the article: _The town of Jay has the resort assessed on the grand list at $124 million. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, during a May 2016 court hearing, valued Jay Peak at $42 million, based on average profits._



The difference in value is likely due to one valuation of the property and real estate (the higher number) and the other being the going interest value (the business itself).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> The difference in value is likely due to one valuation of the property and real estate (the higher number) and the other being the going interest value (the business itself).



Any way you slice it, a $124M valuation for Jay Peak, wherever that came from, was absolutely bat**** crazy versus what we know about their annual revenue of somewhere between $2M & $9M.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2019)

So here's the list of Jay Peak tire-kickers from VTDigger:

Alterra
A Communist Chinese oligarch 
Pacific Group
Och-Ziff
AWH Partners


I still think Alterra is the most logical choice for a whole host of reasons.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Any way you slice it, a $124M valuation for Jay Peak, wherever that came from, was absolutely bat**** crazy versus what we know about their annual revenue of somewhere between $2M & $9M.



Yes, true.  "Grand List" is the value of the real property in the town.  Remember that over the years Stenger and Company created many different partnerships and entities for each of their "projects" at Jay, so technically I bet that there are several different entities that own real estate up there, while the ski area itself is a separate operation.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 6, 2019)

```

```



BenedictGomez said:


> Any way you slice it, a $124M valuation for Jay Peak, wherever that came from, was absolutely bat**** crazy versus what we know about their annual revenue of somewhere between $2M & $9M.



No way Jay only does 9 million in revenue, let alone 2.

Its isn't worth 124 million though.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> ...



Correct, I meant profit, not revenue.  I dont recall if revenue is public knowledge, but on < $10M in profits, lets say it's $30M - $40M in top-line revenue, there's no way you can get anywhere near a $124M value.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> So here's the list of Jay Peak tire-kickers from VTDigger:
> 
> Alterra
> A Communist Chinese oligarch
> ...



Good summary of the interested parties.  :lol:


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 10, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> So here's the list of Jay Peak tire-kickers from VTDigger:
> 
> Alterra
> A Communist Chinese oligarch
> ...


I hear the owner of the best ski snowboard hill in the Catskills is 1 of the bidders for Jay&#55357;&#56832;&#55356;&#57282;&#55356;&#57282;&#55356;&#57275;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56836;


----------



## mbedle (Sep 11, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> So here's the list of Jay Peak tire-kickers from VTDigger:
> 
> Alterra
> A Communist Chinese oligarch
> ...



I laugh to think that one day Jay Peak will be a Club Med property.... lol
It's possible that they could split Jay Peak up like Stowe did, with Fosun/Club Med operating the hotels, water park and golf course and some other company taking over the ski operations.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I laugh to think that one day Jay Peak will be a Club Med property.... lol
> It's possible that they could split Jay Peak up like Stowe did, with Fosun/Club Med operating the hotels, water park and golf course and some other company taking over the ski operations.



Club Med.  How funny.  :lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2019)

So today's news is that the State Auditor's investigation and report as to the EB-5 scandal is [conveniently] delayed due to the pending criminal matter.  Normally I would agree that this is the right thing to do, but here the delay only will further erode any remaining confidence/trust in the State.  

https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/10/cri...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-653d3235bf-405558657

And as to any realistic chance that he gets to "interview" any of these folks, or that said interviews are at all substantive, I say good luck.  



> Hoffer said among the officials he would like to question include Lawrence Miller and Patricia Moulton, both who served as Agency of Commerce and Community Development secretaries under former Gov. Peter Shumlin.
> 
> Also, he said, he would also like to interview former heads of the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center, including Brent Raymond.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 11, 2019)

Club Platy


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2019)

The problem is Vermont is a state virtually unilaterally run by Democrats, and whichever "new" Democrats come into power are going to obfuscate & protect the Democrats both currently in & out of power who are knee-deep in this scandal, up & down the line.

IMO, a full Federal investigation of State of Vermont is the only way justice can be done here.  

And yes, PLEASE do "interview" Brent Raymond, and by "interview", I mean subpoena.

EDIT: And it should be noted that the judge who "threw out" the lawsuit accusing State of Vermont of being complicit in this scandal was appointed by Shumlin, who's also knee deep in this scandal.  Of course.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 11, 2019)

You want them to investigate and basically indict an entire state? 

I'm not that liberal but come on man, that seems a bit over the top.  

I think there is a distinct difference between the State missing a coverup/scam during an audit (I mean it was a scam after all by Quiros, he had to cover some shit up at the very least) and aiding and abetting in financial crimes. The state of VT was after all incentivized to have this project succeed and wasn't exactly some independent neutral party auditor.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> You want them to investigate and basically indict an entire state?
> 
> I'm not that liberal but come on man, that seems a bit over the top.
> 
> *I think there is a distinct difference between the State missing a coverup/scam during an audit *(I mean it was a scam after all by Quiros, he had to cover some shit up at the very least) *and aiding and abetting in financial crimes.* The state of VT was after all incentivized to have this project succeed and wasn't exactly some independent neutral party auditor.



There was no audit; so yes, State of Vermont aided & abetted this financial crime.   

I refuse to believe the current explanation, which is essentially that State of Vermont is a bunch of uneducated, wheat-chewing farmers who are too stupid to not be duped by the international genius criminal mastermind of Ariel Quiros.  That's a load of crap.  

State of Vermont knew this was dirty & did nothing about it to keep the $$$$$ flowing & protect certain politicians, which is why there are "missing" emails & run-arounds at every attempt to investigate State of Vermont.


----------



## 1dog (Sep 14, 2019)

Aemn to your sentiments BG - central control reaally never works. And place on top of that using $$ you didn't 'earn' via tax confiscation  - just look at many state ( or federal for that matter) 'investments' - RI with Curt Shiller game company - $75M - any solar or wind scheme - elected officials anre not investors. Private money can win/loose - they earned it, they can gamble it.  People still can let their state do it - I'm all for states rights to compete but just remember - its not $$ they 'earned'. R I S K. 

Illustration - its reported ( Barrons) that Elon has recieved $5.5B in government subsides. Average Tesla owner who gets $8K-$10K in fed and state subs avergaes over $500K per year in income. 
Let the private mieny take the risk and let them keep more of their reward - they will turn around and re-invest it. Money outy of service earns squat.




BenedictGomez said:


> There was no audit; so yes, State of Vermont aided & abetted this financial crime.
> 
> I refuse to believe the current explanation, which is essentially that State of Vermont is a bunch of uneducated, wheat-chewing farmers who are too stupid to not be duped by the international genius criminal mastermind of Ariel Quiros.  That's a load of crap.
> 
> State of Vermont knew this was dirty & did nothing about it to keep the $$$$$ flowing & protect certain politicians, which is why there are "missing" emails & run-arounds at every attempt to investigate State of Vermont.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> You want them to investigate and basically indict an entire state?
> 
> I'm not that liberal but come on man, that seems a bit over the top.
> 
> I think there is a distinct difference between the State missing a coverup/scam during an audit (I mean it was a scam after all by Quiros, he had to cover some shit up at the very least) and aiding and abetting in financial crimes. The state of VT was after all incentivized to have this project succeed and wasn't exactly some independent neutral party auditor.



I think you need to look into this a bit more.  There is video of the Governor bragging about how the Vermont EB-5 program was the only "audited one" in the country.  Guess what?  They did not audit these projects at all.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Sep 17, 2019)

1dog said:


> Aemn to your sentiments BG - central control reaally never works. And place on top of that using $$ you didn't 'earn' via tax confiscation  - just look at many state ( or federal for that matter) 'investments' - RI with Curt Shiller game company - $75M - any solar or wind scheme - elected officials anre not investors. Private money can win/loose - they earned it, they can gamble it.  People still can let their state do it - I'm all for states rights to compete but just remember - its not $$ they 'earned'. R I S K.
> 
> Illustration - its reported ( Barrons) that Elon has recieved $5.5B in government subsides. Average Tesla owner who gets $8K-$10K in fed and state subs avergaes over $500K per year in income.
> Let the private mieny take the risk and let them keep more of their reward - they will turn around and re-invest it. Money outy of service earns squat.




T
 Elon Musk is in favor of eliminating subsidies.   Let's not forget the MASSIVE subsidies for oil and gas.  Capitalist regimes use money to promote business, give tax breaks to companies that provide jobs, etc.  That's what we do.  Republican or Democrat.


----------



## 1dog (Sep 17, 2019)

DoublePlanker said:


> T
> Elon Musk is in favor of eliminating subsidies.   Let's not forget the MASSIVE subsidies for oil and gas.  Capitalist regimes use money to promote business, give tax breaks to companies that provide jobs, etc.  That's what we do.  Republican or Democrat.



Of course he is - now that he got his. I am too. But some other 'subsides' actually produce tax revenue far in excess of the said subsidy. 



 And as always, pols generalize and no one fact checks them - part of oil and gas subsidies are military patrolling the seas of the Middle East to allow safe passage to energy companies - otherwise held hostage - see todays news actually.

Here's a source of relative truth: https://www.forbes.com/sites/drilli...about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/#e5985c66e1cd

For ski areas to exist they need recurring revenue like any business - and the regulatory climb gets larger and larger, passed on to the customer of ski areas and real estate owners. Always been a rather elite sport, but feeder hills that jump start cant rely on real estate  - they are critical in growing ( or in this case - at least keeping level - skier day growth) 

Bottom line again is risk - individuals and private companies/equity firms/etc. can risk and there is little effect on public dollars. Infrastructer maintaining is a far better investment.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

DoublePlanker said:


> T
> Let's not forget the *MASSIVE subsidies for oil and gas.*



FYI, though oft-repeated, this is largely propaganda, and doesn't remotely mean what you think it means.   Dont just believe me, LOOK INTO IT and investigate if for yourself.  After you've done so, perhaps ask yourself why politicians  repeatedly lie to you about this.  Hell, this is so economically annoying to constantly hear I almost wish they'd just do away with these _"MASSIVE subsidies"_; yes the price of a gallon of gas would probably go up 1¢ or 2¢ or 5¢ nationwide if they do, but it might almost be worth it to never hear this again. LOL


EDIT:   And I'm guessing you're also not aware that the government actually makes more money off every gallon of gas pumped into your car than Exxon Mobile or Shell does (yes, really).  Because that's fair.


----------



## Jully (Sep 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> EDIT:   And I'm guessing you're also not aware that the government actually makes more money off every gallon of gas pumped into your car than Exxon Mobile or Shell does (yes, really).  Because that's fair.



Eh... don't most gas taxes go towards road upkeep and other transportation related costs? I'm fine with taxing it that way rather than a different source of road upkeep revenue, even if this is slightly regressive in nature.

Exxon isn't exactly struggling to make money, so I'm not too concerned about who makes "more" off gas sales.


----------



## 1dog (Sep 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> FYI, though oft-repeated, this is largely propaganda, and doesn't remotely mean what you think it means.   Dont just believe me, LOOK INTO IT and investigate if for yourself.  After you've done so, perhaps ask yourself why politicians  repeatedly lie to you about this.  Hell, this is so economically annoying to constantly hear I almost wish they'd just do away with these _"MASSIVE subsidies"_; yes the price of a gallon of gas would probably go up 1¢ or 2¢ or 5¢ nationwide if they do, but it might almost be worth it to never hear this again. LOL
> 
> 
> EDIT:   And I'm guessing you're also not aware that the government actually makes more money off every gallon of gas pumped into your car than Exxon Mobile or Shell does (yes, really).  Because that's fair.



Yet another 'Amen'  ( and spelled correctly this time too)

same with cigarettes and probably booze - certainly gambling. . . .do I detect a pattern here?

BG anytime you want to ski Mad River Valley . . . . . . .


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

Jully said:


> Eh... don't most gas taxes go towards road upkeep and other transportation related costs?



It wouldn't matter if the money went towards creating the world's largest wind-powered emu farm, just the fact that the government gets more money from a gallon of gas than the oil company that soup-to-nuts labored over it, is the point that should be shocking enough.  

Anyway, back to this being the Jay Peak thread.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2019)

Jully said:


> Eh... don't most gas taxes go towards road upkeep and other transportation related costs? I'm fine with taxing it that way rather than a different source of road upkeep revenue, even if this is slightly regressive in nature.



In NJ a few years ago we had a big "fight" over raising gas taxes to cover our "Transportation Trust Fund". During the political fight a lot of "transportation" projects were put on hold and at one point a list of all the projects that were put on hold was released. It was quite an interesting read to see everything that was paid for by that fund. There were many things that had nothing to do with road or transportation infrastructure upkeep as people commonly assume (i.e. replacement of PHOTOCOPIERS in NJ Transit's offices costing $14M).


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2019)

Jully said:


> Eh... don't most gas taxes go towards road upkeep and other transportation related costs? I'm fine with taxing it that way rather than a different source of road upkeep revenue, even if this is slightly regressive in nature.



LOL. As soon as I saw this article tonight I thought of this question. Talk about timing...
https://www.nj.com/cape-may-county/...rphy-vetoed-money-to-fix-it-sweeney-says.html

Hopefully the feds and other states aren't quite as idiotic as NJ with how they spend their "transportation" and "gas tax" revenues, but even so I still wouldn't assume that all the money actually goes towards transportation related costs.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 18, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> FYI, though oft-repeated, this is largely propaganda, and doesn't remotely mean what you think it means.   Dont just believe me, LOOK INTO IT and investigate if for yourself.  After you've done so, perhaps ask yourself why politicians  repeatedly lie to you about this.  Hell, this is so economically annoying to constantly hear I almost wish they'd just do away with these _"MASSIVE subsidies"_; yes the price of a gallon of gas would probably go up 1¢ or 2¢ or 5¢ nationwide if they do, but it might almost be worth it to never hear this again. LOL
> 
> 
> EDIT:   And I'm guessing you're also not aware that the government actually makes more money off every gallon of gas pumped into your car than Exxon Mobile or Shell does (yes, really).  Because that's fair.



Are you saying that the taxes on a gallon of gasoline are higher than what a refiner and crude producer get from a gallon of gasoline?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2019)

mbedle said:


> *Are you saying that the taxes on a gallon of gasoline are higher* *than what a refiner and crude producer get from a gallon of gasoline?*



Correct.   Much higher. 

 Obviously this will vary by state & vary with the price of oil, but generally speaking the government makes about 6x to 8x more than the oil company does on every gallon of gas pumped into your gas tank.

Yet how many people actually know this?  I'd guess maybe 1 in 50.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 19, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct.   Much higher.
> 
> Obviously this will vary by state & vary with the price of oil, but generally speaking the government makes about 6x to 8x more than the oil company does on every gallon of gas pumped into your gas tank.
> 
> Yet how many people actually know this?  I'd guess maybe 1 in 50.



This is only partially true. These numbers only take into account profit on refined gasoline, and completely ignores any profits from the extraction and sale of crude oil directly. Conveniently, Exxon makes more in profit doing that than it does making and distributing gasoline. 

Oil and gas companies like Exxon are typically making about 6 cents on the dollar overall, which is similar to industries like construction, and still lower than the governments take.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 19, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct.   Much higher.
> 
> Obviously this will vary by state & vary with the price of oil, but generally speaking the government makes about 6x to 8x more than the oil company does on every gallon of gas pumped into your gas tank.
> 
> Yet how many people actually know this?  I'd guess maybe 1 in 50.



If you had said "profit" that would have made it a lot easier to understand what point you were trying to get across.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> *This is only partially true.** These numbers only take into account profit on refined gasoline*, and completely ignores any profits from the extraction and sale of crude oil directly. Conveniently, Exxon makes more in profit doing that than it does making and distributing gasoline.
> 
> Oil and gas companies like Exxon are typically *making about 6 cents on the dollar overall*, which is similar to industries like construction, and *still lower than the governments take.*



No, it's 100% true, which you acknowledge.  The rest of what you're saying while not incorrect is just strangely obfuscating my point with ancillary & disconnected details.

If I said Disney makes more on movies than Sony, one shouldn't assume Disney isnt also involved in the sale of music, attractions or 1001 other things.   



mbedle said:


> If you had said "profit" that would have made it a lot easier to understand what point you were trying to get across.



I assumed that was obvious.


----------



## Domeskier (Sep 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, it's 100% true, which you acknowledge.  The rest of what you're saying while not incorrect is just strangely obfuscating my point with ancillary & disconnected details.



In the broader context of whether or not the government is providing massive subsidies to the oil and gas industry, it's a valid point.  The fact that the government may be making more money off a gallon of gasoline than the companies producing it is irrelevant to that broader issue if the same companies are reaping huge profits in the extraction and sale of crude oil thanks to government subsidies.  I don't have an opinion on that broader issue.  The articles I looked at reach their huge estimates by including indirect subsidies such as the tax benefits of LIFO accounting, accelerated depreciation schedules and master limited partnerships, which are not limited to the oil and gas industry.  I think it's economically correct to view these aspects of the tax code as subsidies, but I also think that most of these articles are banking on the fact that when the general public hears about "massive subsidies for the oil and gas industry" they think of Trump writing Exxon a $10 billion check each year.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, it's 100% true, which you acknowledge.  The rest of what you're saying while not incorrect is just strangely obfuscating my point with ancillary & disconnected details.
> 
> If I said Disney makes more on movies than Sony, one shouldn't assume Disney isnt also involved in the sale of music, attractions or 1001 other things.
> 
> ...




You whole point was that the government is making like 6-10x as much money as Exxon is, which is laughably false. Conveniently leaving out Exxon's largest profit center is not just some "ancillary detail".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> *You whole point was that the government is making like 6-10x as much money as Exxon is, which is laughably false*. Conveniently leaving out Exxon's largest profit center is not just some "ancillary detail".



On. Every.  Gallon.  Of. Gasoline.

It's 100% true.  

The way you_ choose_ to view this issue by lumping in derivative profit centers is bizarre.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2019)

This whole conversation started about oil and gas subsidies. You leaving out the profit centers most reliant on oil and gas subsidies to obfuscate Exxon's reality is just bizarre.


----------



## 1dog (Sep 20, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> You whole point was that the government is making like 6-10x as much money as Exxon is, which is laughably false. Conveniently leaving out Exxon's largest profit center is not just some "ancillary detail".



I'm not sure how this relates to the ski industry except that generally subsides handed out by the choices of a few government officals may not be the most efficient use of capital ( ok stop laughing at 'may not be')

It relates to ski industry in that most of us own shares in Exxon Mobil/Walmart/FANGS/etc. in our retirement accounts or regular brokerage accts thru mutual funds - so it benefits us when they do well - indirectly we own them. - OK, a small micro %. The richer we feel, the more we ski, buy property, spend $$ on ancillary items , etc.

Government doesn't 'earn' squat - it just taxes. And since 'we' are the government ( you know, by the people, for the people, etc.) we could end them. My guess is it ( all subsides) is a very small portion  - call in an accounting error in the scheme of $4. something trillion. 

Since mid- 2014 each quarter has had record income to the Federal Government - when will it be enough? Never.

Will subsidies help? In some cases it produces revenue - but its picked and chosen what industry is the flavor of the Noisies who get it - making it unfair.


I'll say it a different way - Renaldus Magnus way : If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.” 

We ski and have access because we are so wealthy - compared to the rest of the worlds population.

Final question - Are you happy with 35-55% of your income being confiscated?
I'd say enough of us are or we'd have a Tea Party.

Maybe Jay can be the 1st Government-owned ski area? Union lifties? After all we financed it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2019)

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....this shit just keeps going.  

https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/22/quiros-lawyer-troubled-by-missing-state-documents/



> “This case has been mixed up in the politics of the state and the players have a personal stake in the outcome,” Levine said.





> Shumlin and Leahy both wrote letters of support for the AnCBio Vermont project in the fall of 2012 that were included in the offering memorandum for foreign investors. Many of the immigrants said they would not have invested in AnCBio if not for the support of the governor and the senator.


----------



## 1dog (Sep 24, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Meanwhile, back at the ranch....this shit just keeps going.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2019/09/22/quiros-lawyer-troubled-by-missing-state-documents/



VT Digger does good work.

When it's other peoples money, and your not in a business (government) that people have a choice to go elsewhere for services, it inevitably gets used inappropriately or wasted ( or both).

Still, wish the mountain well and that lessons will be learned. History doesn't always repeat itself but it does tend to rhyme.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2019)

I don't think I've ever agreed with a criminal defense attorney whose client is clearly guilty, but here we are.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2019)

https://vtdigger.org/2019/10/01/feds-affirm-decision-to-close-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/

Some quotes:



> The  U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, in a blistering decision, notified the state Tuesday that it was denying the appeal. The state had argued in its appeal filed in September that it should be allowed to wind down the operations of its EB-5 regional center, rather than abruptly close it.  “Upon a close examination of the totality of the circumstances and the factors, we determine that the negative indicia here outweigh the positive,” the USCIS stated in its 10-page decision rejecting the state’s appeal.
> 
> “Accordingly,” the decision stated, “we conclude that the VRC no longer continues to promote economic growth and does not warrant the preservation of its regional center designation.”





> Michael Pieciak, commissioner of the Vermont Department of Financial Regulation, said the state has 33 days from Tuesday to file for reconsideration, if it opts to do so. In the meantime, he said, since an appeal right still exists, the state plans to operate the center as it has been.





> Pieciak said he wasn’t too surprised by the decision.
> 
> “It’s basically an internal to USCIS decision. It’s an administrative law judge within its own agency,” Pieciak said. “The outcome isn’t all that unexpected.”
> 
> He added, “A different venue would be more favorable to the state’s arguments.”





> However, the USCIS contended in its notice of termination in the summer of 2018, and again its decision rejecting the state’s appeal, that the state dropped the ball by failing to stop a $200 million fraud in projects in headed by Jay Peak developers over nearly a decade.





> USCIS reiterated many of the concerns it had raised in its earlier notice of termination. In that notice of termination, USCIS wrote that the state made “material misrepresentations” when it signed off on AnC Bio Vermont, the Newport project that has led to the criminal federal charges against the four developers.





> “In addition,” the decision stated, “although (the state) has offered evidence on the efforts to promote economic growth, the record shows that most of the purported capital raised and jobs created were linked to the Jay Peak Projects, which, according to federal and state authorities, were part of a large-scale fraudulent scheme.”





> Also, according to the decision, “the record shows the Appellant had learned that Mr. Quiros, Mr. Stenger, and other individuals may have engaged in wrongdoing concerning the Jay Peak Projects, but did not share such information with USCIS until 2016, after SEC initiated its action.”
> 
> The decision stated that concerns had been raised about the Jay Peak EB-5 projects as early as November 2011, and in February 2012, Douglas Hulme blew the whistle on the Ponzi scheme, informing 100 immigrant attorneys that Jay Peak’s financials were not on solid footing.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 3, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> https://vtdigger.org/2019/10/01/feds-affirm-decision-to-close-vermont-eb-5-regional-center/
> 
> Some quotes:



Well that's unfortunate news for the investors. As the appeal denial stated, the current regulations do not allow a regional center to exist for the sole purpose of winding down its operations. And as also stated, the USCIS had no choice but to terminate the center, since they no longer served the purpose of promoting economic growth.


----------



## mister moose (Oct 3, 2019)

> _USCIS wrote that the state made “material misrepresentations” when it signed off on AnC Bio Vermont, the Newport project that has led to the criminal federal charges against the four developers._​



You don't read that every day in the paper.  Will it have any repercussions?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 3, 2019)

mister moose said:


> You don't read that every day in the paper.  *Will it have any repercussions?*



No.  Because the government owns the rifles & the bayonets.  

Were a private business to exhibit the same corruption, the government would fine it into obligation & destroy it.


----------



## 1dog (Oct 3, 2019)

A government powerful enough to give you want you want, is powerful enough to take it away. Funny how they enforce GAAP but could never abide by those accounting standards themselves - people/sheeple get the government they vote for.
CT just enacted 4 or 5 more taxes - and have under-performed the rest of the country's economies - 

I guess I understood the EB-5 program when - before deregulation of financial institutions - it was near impossible to get capital to fund projects in the risky business of vacation homes/ski areas/etc. Now that financial institutions can take more risk, and charge a higher rate, they shouldn't be needed.

When and if those loans go bad, no one but the investors and intistutions should bear the burden.  High risk, high return, high risk.

If we( both parties) stopped placing Wall St fellows to head the Treasury. . . . . .  maybe it ( we)wouldn't be raided every time they get in trouble?


----------



## tumbler (Oct 4, 2019)

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/EB-5-investors-win-Vt-Supreme-Court-appeal-562176921.html


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2019)

tumbler said:


> https://www.wcax.com/content/news/EB-5-investors-win-Vt-Supreme-Court-appeal-562176921.html



Yes. The beauty of an independent judiciary.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 7, 2019)

The VT Digger story with a link to the actual decision:

https://vtdigger.org/2019/10/04/vermont-supreme-court-reverses-dismissal-of-eb-5-investor-lawsuit/


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2019)

1dog said:


> I guess I understood the EB-5 program when - before deregulation of financial institutions - it was near impossible to get capital to fund projects in the risky business of vacation homes/ski areas/etc. Now that financial institutions can take more risk, and charge a higher rate, they shouldn't be needed.
> 
> When and if those loans go bad, no one but the investors and intistutions should bear the burden.  High risk, high return, high risk.



You clearly have no idea what happened here....this was fraud.  That is not an "accepted risk" for investors.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 11, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> You clearly have no idea what happened here....this was fraud.  That is not an "accepted risk" for investors.



I think we all know this was never an "investment" and was always a ticket to the front of the green card line. 

That being said, I still have a hard time arguing the state of VT aided and abetted this scam. They were always going to be biased towards seeing this project succeed, and as a result, only saw rainbows and unicorns. AKA typical government grandstanding and unfulfilled pie in the sky promises, followed by inept oversight. 

Which is a distinction compared to Quiros who was actively plotting the scam. The state of VT was a convenient rubber stamp but ultimately it feels like they were defrauded also. 

Intent matters.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> The state of VT was a convenient rubber stamp but *ultimately it feels like they were defrauded also. *
> *
> Intent matters.*



Typically the defrauded party would be the one most wanting to see justice & cooperate with law enforcement.  Instead, State of Vermont has blocked & obstructed justice at every turn, refuses to turn over emails & documents, has "disappeared" some emails, and is stonewalling.   As for "intent", frankly we have no idea specifically due to aforementioned stonewalling.

And of the stereotypical government incompetence you speak of, it seems like much more than merely that.

*<-------- *  Is still waiting for someone to "interview" Brent Raymond under oath.


----------



## 1dog (Oct 11, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> You clearly have no idea what happened here....this was fraud.  That is not an "accepted risk" for investors.



I make no reference to the specific legal case regarding Jay.  SV used EB-5 with no issues I've seen and I'm guessing it was used in other places as well. Agree with whoever said it was an obvious ' cut the line to citizenship'.

Government, private, doesn't matter - anytime you lend money there is risk. 

Sounds like a lot of grumbling about other peoples money until it involves tax payers - then it's the publics problem.

Did the taxpers money get lost? Was it just everyone in Montpeiler looking the other way or pretending not to see problems that were arising? I'm not privy on the details but it seems like private money from foreigners managed by borrowers w/state government oversight - and I'd venture to guess the State Dept had to be somewhat involved to make citizenship clearances for lenders.

If its fraud, then the judicial system should do its job. Looks like people are headed for jail. 

I'll repeat - government is not a good allocator of capital in private investment. Heck, they aren't that good in public infrastructure which should be under their pervue. M. Stanley Dukasis promised the Big Dig to top out at $900M.

$22B and counting . . .


----------



## 1dog (Oct 12, 2019)

1dog said:


> I make no reference to the specific legal case regarding Jay.  SV used EB-5 with no issues I've seen and I'm guessing it was used in other places as well. Agree with whoever said it was an obvious ' cut the line to citizenship'.
> 
> Government, private, doesn't matter - anytime you lend money there is risk.
> 
> ...




https://vtdigger.org/2019/10/11/sta...nter-open-despite-blistering-rebukes-by-feds/


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

1dog said:


> I make no reference to the specific legal case regarding Jay.  SV used EB-5 with no issues I've seen and I'm guessing it was used in other places as well. Agree with whoever said it was an obvious ' cut the line to citizenship'.



That still does not justify fraud.  



> Government, private, doesn't matter - anytime you lend money there is risk.



Fraud is not one of those risks.  



> Sounds like a lot of grumbling about other peoples money until it involves tax payers - then it's the publics problem.
> 
> Did the taxpers money get lost? Was it just everyone in Montpeiler looking the other way or pretending not to see problems that were arising? I'm not privy on the details but it seems like private money from foreigners managed by borrowers w/state government oversight - and I'd venture to guess the State Dept had to be somewhat involved to make citizenship clearances for lenders.



Again, you clearly are out of your element on this one.  I don't know why you are saying so much about a situation that you know nothing about.



> I'll repeat - government is not a good allocator of capital in private investment. Heck, they aren't that good in public infrastructure which should be under their pervue. M. Stanley Dukasis promised the Big Dig to top out at $900M.
> 
> $22B and counting . . .



WTF does this have to do with this situation?


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> I think we all know this was never an "investment" and was always a ticket to the front of the green card line.



This is a program that allows foreign investors to make at-risk investments in job-creating projects in impoverished areas with the benefit of green card status, provided that the investment does create jobs.  So yes there was a ticket to a green card, but it is more than that.  Details do matter.  



> That being said, I still have a hard time arguing the state of VT aided and abetted this scam. They were always going to be biased towards seeing this project succeed, and as a result, only saw rainbows and unicorns. AKA typical government grandstanding and unfulfilled pie in the sky promises, followed by inept oversight.
> 
> Which is a distinction compared to Quiros who was actively plotting the scam. The state of VT was a convenient rubber stamp but ultimately it feels like they were defrauded also.
> 
> Intent matters.



This is where the evidence is important.  Was there actual fraud by state officials who _knew or did not verify_ what they were saying to investors was in fact wrong?  Specifically, a Governor who in 2012 clearly says in a promotional video for the EB-5 program that the Vermont Center "is the only EB-5 center that audits these projects" when in fact they did not and had no idea how to even see fraud?  At this juncture, the Vermont Supreme Court has said that there is at least a viable allegation of negligence on the part of the State.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 12, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> This is a program that allows foreign investors to make at-risk investments in job-creating projects in impoverished areas with the benefit of green card status, provided that the investment does create jobs.  So yes there was a ticket to a green card, but it is more than that.  Details do matter.



Let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. The ROI on the vast majority of these projects is insanely low. The primary reason a foreign investor makes these investments at all is to cut to the front of the green card line. End of story. They're not doing it for some altruistic reason because they want to help create jobs or help struggling areas. 



> This is where the evidence is important.  Was there actual fraud by state officials who _knew or did not verify_ what they were saying to investors was in fact wrong?  Specifically, a Governor who in 2012 clearly says in a promotional video for the EB-5 program that the Vermont Center "is the only EB-5 center that audits these projects" when in fact they did not and had no idea how to even see fraud?  At this juncture, the Vermont Supreme Court has said that there is at least a viable allegation of negligence on the part of the State.



Agree here...


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. The ROI on the vast majority of these projects is insanely low. The primary reason a foreign investor makes these investments at all is to cut to the front of the green card line. End of story. They're not doing it for some altruistic reason because they want to help create jobs or help struggling areas.



These still are an at-risk investment subject to various regulations.  And yes there was some expectation of some return.  Were returns guaranteed?  Of course not.  It seems that a lot of folks here don't understand how the program was supposed to work.  Investors are screened by the feds and receive a temporary green card.  No permanent immigration status is issued until the project has created a certain number of jobs (which in and of itself can be manipulated).  

This is overlooking the larger point and that is not to be complete xenophobes here.  One cannot say that because these foreign investors were interested in a green card that somehow losing their money to a fraudster is completely OK.   I've seen this argument implicitly made in this thread--that we should not care because these investors were only trying to buy citizenship and that is wrong so them getting bilked is completely fine.  Well, that policy debate was had now over 20 years ago and Congress created the EB-5 program.  These investments are subject to the same consumer protections available to us as investors.  In fact, the biggest reason why so many do invest in America is because of these protections (or at least some form of protection).

The argument that because these folks wanted a green card and the fact that they lost their money to a fraudster is OK is complete bullshit.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 12, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> These still are an at-risk investment subject to various regulations.  And yes there was some expectation of some return.  Were returns guaranteed?  Of course not.  It seems that a lot of folks here don't understand how the program was supposed to work.  Investors are screened by the feds and receive a temporary green card.  No permanent immigration status is issued until the project has created a certain number of jobs (which in and of itself can be manipulated).
> 
> This is overlooking the larger point and that is not to be complete xenophobes here.  One cannot say that because these foreign investors were interested in a green card that somehow losing their money to a fraudster is completely OK.   I've seen this argument implicitly made in this thread--that we should not care because these investors were only trying to buy citizenship and that is wrong so them getting bilked is completely fine.  Well, that policy debate was had now over 20 years ago and Congress created the EB-5 program.  These investments are subject to the same consumer protections available to us as investors.  In fact, the biggest reason why so many do invest in America is because of these protections (or at least some form of protection).
> 
> The argument that because these folks wanted a green card and the fact that they lost their money to a fraudster is OK is complete bullshit.



Don't know where you pulled that correlation from out of what I said. Maybe other people have said that in the past, but I certainly didn't in my post here. I agree 110% that losing the money to fraudsters is not ok and should be investigated/prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That has absolutely no relevance to the fact that the primary reason they "invested" in the first place is to get a green card. I fully agree that taking advantage of them because "well they just wanted a green card" is entirely wrong and should not be acceptable under any circumstances.

Typically a "high risk" investment would also offer a potentially high ROI if it succeeds. In the case of many EB5 projects, it is the exact opposite. They are "high risk" with exceptionally low ROIs even in cases where the projects are fully successful. So again, don't kid yourself into thinking the investors did it for any reason other than the fact that they could basically "buy" a green card by loaning money that they would most likely get back with maybe a tiny bit of interest. That has nothing to do with the fraud issue though and is just a general description of EB5. The fraud issue is fraud and people should be held accountable.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Don't know where you pulled that correlation from out of what I said. Maybe other people have said that in the past, but I certainly didn't in my post here. I agree 110% that losing the money to fraudsters is not ok and should be investigated/prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That has absolutely no relevance to the fact that the primary reason they "invested" in the first place is to get a green card. I fully agree that taking advantage of them because "well they just wanted a green card" is entirely wrong and should not be acceptable under any circumstances.
> 
> Typically a "high risk" investment would also offer a potentially high ROI if it succeeds. In the case of many EB5 projects, it is the exact opposite. They are "high risk" with exceptionally low ROIs even in cases where the projects are fully successful. So again, don't kid yourself into thinking the investors did it for any reason other than the fact that they could basically "buy" a green card by loaning money that they would most likely get back with maybe a tiny bit of interest. That has nothing to do with the fraud issue though and is just a general description of EB5. The fraud issue is fraud and people should be held accountable.



The argument you and others raise is that they SHOULD have expected to lose their money because these are high-risk investments and the investor's primary goal was the green card.  Here, that completely fails because the reason why the project were fraudulent to begin with.  Fraud is not an assumed risk.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Don't know where you pulled that correlation from out of what I said. Maybe other people have said that in the past, but I certainly didn't in my post here. I agree 110% that losing the money to fraudsters is not ok and should be investigated/prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. That has absolutely no relevance to the fact that the primary reason they "invested" in the first place is to get a green card. I fully agree that taking advantage of them because "well they just wanted a green card" is entirely wrong and should not be acceptable under any circumstances.
> 
> Typically a "high risk" investment would also offer a potentially high ROI if it succeeds. In the case of many EB5 projects, it is the exact opposite. They are "high risk" with exceptionally low ROIs even in cases where the projects are fully successful. So again, don't kid yourself into thinking the investors did it for any reason other than the fact that they could basically "buy" a green card by loaning money that they would most likely get back with maybe a tiny bit of interest. That has nothing to do with the fraud issue though and is just a general description of EB5. The fraud issue is fraud and people should be held accountable.



The arguments you and others raise are:  (a) they are foreign investors who were not interested in making a ROI and the fact that they got swindled is tough shit; and/or (b) these investors SHOULD have expected to lose their money because these are high-risk investments and the investor's primary goal was the green card.  Here, that completely fails because the reason why the projects have failed was that they were fraudulent to begin with.  Fraud is not an assumed risk in investments!  

Here it is important to note that a fair number of these foreign investors lost their money AND the projects did not qualify for the permanent immigration status.  The Receiver is trying to make some of these successful so that the investors AT LEAST get the green cards.

Again, a project is not a risky investment because of fraud.  Fraud is not an assumed risk.  I keep saying that and folks seem deaf to that point.


----------



## cdskier (Oct 12, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> The arguments *you *and others raise are:  (a) they are foreign investors who were not interested in making a ROI and the fact that they got swindled is tough shit; and/or (b) these investors SHOULD have expected to lose their money because these are high-risk investments and the investor's primary goal was the green card.  Here, that completely fails because the reason why the projects have failed was that they were fraudulent to begin with.  Fraud is not an assumed risk in investments!



Please show me where in my last posts I said any of those things. I'm fairly certainly I explicitly said it is NOT OK that they got swindled. Again, the primary reason for the investors investing with the goal of getting a green card is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the issue that there was fraud in the Jay peak case. You're trying to put words in people's mouths and combine two unrelated things.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Please show me where in my last posts I said any of those things. I'm fairly certainly I explicitly said it is NOT OK that they got swindled. Again, the primary reason for the investors investing with the goal of getting a green card is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the issue that there was fraud in the Jay peak case. You're trying to put words in people's mouths and combine two unrelated things.



This is what you said:  



> Let's not try to put lipstick on a pig. The ROI on the vast majority of these projects is insanely low. The primary reason a foreign investor makes these investments at all is to cut to the front of the green card line. End of story. They're not doing it for some altruistic reason because they want to help create jobs or help struggling areas.



Nowhere did I say that the EB-5 program was some altruistic thing.  You say that the motive of these investors was to get a green card and the implication is that they don't give a shit about their $500,000 or $1 million as long as they get a green card.  That's not true and certainly is not really at all material to the subject of this thread.  

I guess you quibble with how I described the program.  Here is the Wikipedia article summarizing the program:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa 

The program is in fact an immigration program based on a foreign investor investing in a project that is designed to increase employment in areas where employment is low and poverty is high.  Generally, that is a lot of Vermont.  So investors can get the benefit by opting to contribute the lower amount--which was $500,000--in exchange for a temporary green card that will become permanent if the project creates 10 jobs per investor.  That's how it works.


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## cdskier (Oct 12, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> This is what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



<sigh>Still nowhere in that comment of mine that you quoted did I say fraud was ok because the investor's goal was to get a green card. You're still making assumptions and trying to draw conclusions that don't exist (at least in my posts...can't speak for others).

You can believe that the reason the foreign investors chose to "invest" in an EB5 program is because they saw it as an easy way to get a green card. AND you can ALSO believe that any EB5 projects involving fraud are wrong. I don't get why you seem to keep trying to say that because I said their primary goal is a green card that it is ok if they lose their money. I never said that and never implied that. You tried to make a point that the program is about so much more. While that may have been the original intent, the foreign investors honestly don't care at all whether it really helps our communities. They're not choosing to invest because they want to see jobs created in the US. They're choosing to invest because if the project succeeds they get a green card (and usually get 100% of their money back...so while it is described as a "high risk" investment it really is more of a low interest loan typically).

Since you chose to bring that Wikipedia article in, here's some fun quotes from it that support my point:



> In February 2017 Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Grassley, a critic of EB-5, introduced a bill in February 2017 to terminate the program.[12] In a joint statement they claimed that, "The EB-5 program is inherently flawed. It says that U.S. citizenship is for sale. It is wrong to have a special pathway to citizenship for the wealthy while millions wait in line for visas."[12] Grassley and Feinstein say that "there is no reliable or verifiable way to measure how many jobs are created" and that "many of the wealthiest parts of the country have been incorrectly labeled as "high unemployment."[2]



Here you have members of Congress admitting that they really have no way to know whether the program is doing what it was supposed to and that it has basically has become what I said it has.



> Supporters of the foreign investor visa include Senator Chuck Schumer (D-New York), along with some in the Obama administration. They say that the program "delivered billions of dollars into the American economy: $8.7 billion and 35,140 jobs since October 12".[2] According to federal auditors the numbers were "not valid and reliable".[2]



So once again, audits show they have no idea if the program accomplished the original goal.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 12, 2019)

I think Quebec probably has as close to the right idea on the pay for citizenship program as you can get; assuming you morally accept people buying citizenship.  Those wishing to immigrate have to have a minimum net worth of $2M CA and marketable employment skills.  They then have to give $1.2M CA to the government for 5 years.  After those 5 years they get their $1.2M back with zero interest.  The Quebec government uses the earned interest for economic development programs. 

This kind of arrangement seems to have less potential for fraud compared to the US EB-5. 

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## Not Sure (Oct 12, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I think Quebec probably has as close to the right idea on the pay for citizenship program as you can get; assuming you morally accept people buying citizenship.  Those wishing to immigrate have to have a minimum net worth of $2M CA and marketable employment skills.  They then have to give $1.2M CA to the government for 5 years.  After those 5 years they get their $1.2M back with zero interest.  The Quebec government uses the earned interest for economic development programs.
> 
> This kind of arrangement seems to have less potential for fraud compared to the US EB-5.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I know a couple that immigrated last year to Nova Scotia. The paperwork  took a few years he has a French/American citizenship .They had a vacation home that they made their residence. I'm pretty sure they weren't over the $2M . Is that Quebec Province specific or all of CA?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 12, 2019)

Not sure

http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv....immigrant/three-programs/investors/index.html


My wife and I have kicked around the idea of moving to Quebec at times. She is of French Canadian heritage. Her grandmother moved here in her 20s, so Jess grew up with lots of French speaking in her home.  So, I've looked up what it would take to move to Quebec. 

We both love it up there, but ultimately family and friends keep us here in NH. We also love it here too.  NH Seacoast is a wonderful place to live. 

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## 1dog (Oct 13, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> That still does not justify fraud.
> 
> 
> Who is arguing 'for' fraud?
> ...



Excuse me TB. Anytime government gets involved with private business investment it bears citizens paying attention to. 

That was an example of huge waste, but heres one where it appeared to work - Hoover Dam. Finished sooner than planned and gave southwest much needed water for settlement. They are just macro views of wins and losses with citizens $$.

Hope we can all agree we have so much information to process that everyone has a different take on a given subject - this one - something that was supposed to benefit the local communities of the NEK and the investors. It went south.


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## mbedle (Oct 13, 2019)

I think the worst part about all of this is even with all the good work that the receivership has done with recouping money and operating the ski resorts, the plan in place is going to guarantee the each investor in the Phases II - VI are going to lose money (with potentially 8 of them not getting permanent residences). 529 investors in those phases are going to share the ultimate profit from the sale of Jay Peak (plus what ever funds the receiver has recouped for them). Lets say it sells for 75 million and the receivership has 50 million to add to that, that leave $236,000.00 per investor. To me, it would have seemed more fair for those investors to have sold the Jay Peak resort but keep intact the limited partnerships. Not sure why that wasn't an option. I'n my eyes, someone is going to get a really good deal on a resort with a shitload of land, real estate and infrastructure at the expense of the investors in those phases.  I would guess that the case against the state will go forward and a settlement will be reached. I honestly don't see that settlement being enough to be greater (around 140 million) than the amount that the investors get from the sale of Jay Peak. Plus the potential case against the state might include investors in Phase I (paid back already and have green cards), Phase VII (made whole and ether got paid back or reallocated) and Phase VIII (still own Burke Resort). That would make the cut per investor even less.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 13, 2019)

It stinks people got defrauded, but moral hazard needs to be a thing.  

Nobody who invested in Enron or similar was made whole, I dont see the difference here, unless it is proved that the government was "in on it".  That would be a difference-maker.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2019)

Meanwhile....   https://vtdigger.org/2019/11/14/stenger-wants-his-passport-back-prosecutors-say-no/


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2019)

A recent article about the EB-5 fraud court proceedings had this nugget:

_The receivership is estimating the value of Jay Peak at around $90 million to $100 million and Burke Mountain at between $10 million and $20 million, according to Schneider. Jay Peak is currently on the market, while Burke Mountain isn’t expected to be put up for sale until next year._

Article here: https://vtdigger.org/2019/12/08/qui...s-jay-peak-receiver-for-avarice-in-260m-suit/

If I recall correctly, the hotel alone at Burke cost in the vicinity of $55 million.  So there's at least $35 million wiped out.

One thing is for sure.  Both mountains will need improvements.  Jay Peak had a TON of money poured into hotels and other buildings, but extremely little put into the mountain itself.  A purchaser will need to budget for some very expensive snowmaking and lift upgrades.  Burke has less of a need to deal with lifts, but the snowmaking needs a lot of attention in order to bring it up to modern day standards.


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## ss20 (Dec 9, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> A recent article about the EB-5 fraud court proceedings had this nugget:
> 
> _The receivership is estimating the value of Jay Peak at around $90 million to $100 million and Burke Mountain at between $10 million and $20 million, according to Schneider. Jay Peak is currently on the market, while Burke Mountain isn’t expected to be put up for sale until next year._
> 
> ...



Wow.  Given a new high-speed quad will run you...$6-9 million by its self both those numbers are pretty depressing.  It's a shame there's just no money in the ski industry.


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## 1dog (Dec 9, 2019)

Is Stenger just an unwittingly attached to this? I don't know anything about him except he's been a staple there for years. Seems to me he was not aware of the unfolding fraud - or maybe not until it was too late? 

Anyone have any insight into his character?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 9, 2019)

1dog said:


> Is Stenger just an unwittingly attached to this? I don't know anything about him except he's been a staple there for years. Seems to me he was not aware of the unfolding fraud - or maybe not until it was too late?
> 
> Anyone have any insight into his character?



It depends who you ask.  The federal government has charged Stenger with ten criminal charges, including conspiracy to commit wire fraud, wire fraud and making false statements.  Stenger has plead not guilty.

Stenger has settled separate civil cases with the federal government and the state of Vermont.  In both of those cases Stenger agreed to pay a fine.  Theoretically, an innocent person can settle a civil case because they want to avoid the risk of trial - so make of the settlement what you will.

In my opinion, Stenger was not clean.  He either knew what was happening or he was the world's most incompetent business person.  Take your pick.  My opinion is that it was the former.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2019)

1dog said:


> Is Stenger just an unwittingly attached to this? I don't know anything about him except he's been a staple there for years. Seems to me he was not aware of the unfolding fraud - or maybe not until it was too late?
> 
> Anyone have any insight into his character?



It is very, very hard to think he did not know.  He probably chose "not" to know.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 9, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> It depends who you ask.  The federal government has charged Stenger with ten criminal charges, including conspiracy to commit wire fraud, wire fraud and making false statements.  Stenger has plead not guilty.
> 
> Stenger has settled separate civil cases with the federal government and the state of Vermont.  In both of those cases Stenger agreed to pay a fine.  Theoretically, an innocent person can settle a civil case because they want to avoid the risk of trial - so make of the settlement what you will.
> 
> *In my opinion, Stenger was not clean.  He either knew what was happening or he was the world's most incompetent business person.  Take your pick.  My opinion is that it was the former.*


Seems obvious, not sure why anyone would be looking to give him a 'pass'. I don't think 1dog was, seems they were just asking.


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## fbrissette (Dec 9, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> It is very, very hard to think he did not know.  He probably chose "not" to know.



He knew.  How much he personally financially benefited from the scam is less clear.


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## mbedle (Dec 9, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> A recent article about the EB-5 fraud court proceedings had this nugget:
> 
> _The receivership is estimating the value of Jay Peak at around $90 million to $100 million and Burke Mountain at between $10 million and $20 million, according to Schneider. Jay Peak is currently on the market, while Burke Mountain isn’t expected to be put up for sale until next year._
> 
> ...



The scary thing is that 572 million was spent on all of the Jay Peak projects! Far worst than what happened at Burke.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 9, 2019)

$572M spent recently and your summit lift is a tram that can't run in winds over 5 mph.
Solid investment right there!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 9, 2019)

One of the funniest bits of this saga is how overnight Stenger went from supposedly one of the most intelligent men in ski business, to using the, _"I am but a terribly naive pawn who was duped"_ defense.


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## mbedle (Dec 9, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> One of the funniest bits of this saga is how overnight Stenger went from supposedly one of the most intelligent men in ski business, to using the, _"I am but a terribly naive pawn who was duped"_ defense.



And apparently, Canadian and Japanese ski resorts are looking to hire him as a consultant. He just got his passport back to be able to travel outside the county.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

mbedle said:


> And apparently, Canadian and Japanese ski resorts are looking to hire him as a consultant. He just got his passport back to be able to travel outside the county.



I am quite surprised that he got it back.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> $572M spent recently and your summit lift is a tram that can't run in winds over 5 mph.
> Solid investment right there!



They would say that the money went into amenities that make the resort year-round and weatherproof.  I agree to some extent.


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## 1dog (Dec 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> They would say that the money went into amenities that make the resort year-round and weatherproof.  I agree to some extent.




After skiing there a couple times a year 20 or more years ago comparing it to present - my kids enjoyed the water park when it was simply too cold to ski for them, and even if not too cold - the novelty was all they wanted. It's cheaper for me if the wife and kids are in there - except for that bar. . . 


Then the rinks - I'm a former traveling hockey player so the draw for that crowd is good. Hotels and condos all seem to improve the area and the experience even though I don't stay in them. Enjoyed the dining and the whole vibe that was created.

I'm not old enough to play golf but there is another draw. All this investment to draw RE investment and dining experiences - where the margins are, seem to have worked. The question is at what price? Whats the ROI?

$572M - 


Sugarbush didn't invest in half that I bet, yet created more year-round activity.

Weddings and mt biking,, disc golf, zip lines, and every kind of festival one can think of. Think at the sale they stated they spend $74M in ski mountain improvements, not counting hotel and condo development. Jay has Montreal 2 hours away - Mad River Valley has far fewer beds and is further away from larger metropolitan areas.


ROI - got to be a measurable return ( oh yeah and be able to fund debt - let's not forget the true problem here - am I off on that?)


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

1dog said:


> After skiing there a couple times a year 20 or more years ago comparing it to present - my kids enjoyed the water park when it was simply too cold to ski for them, and even if not too cold - the novelty was all they wanted. It's cheaper for me if the wife and kids are in there - except for that bar. . .
> 
> 
> Then the rinks - I'm a former traveling hockey player so the draw for that crowd is good. Hotels and condos all seem to improve the area and the experience even though I don't stay in them. Enjoyed the dining and the whole vibe that was created.
> ...



In terms of skiing experience, from what I am seeing they have added one new beginner lift and that is it.  Long laid out plans for HSQ for the Jet and HS6 for Bonnie, but no progress.  Same old tired fixed-grip lifts.  The last real new lift there of major significance was the Flyer....in 1999.  That's 20 years ago.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2019)

Let’s not forget the terrain expansion that has never happened and likely wont


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Let’s not forget the terrain expansion that has never happened and likely wont



Right.  That too.  I think that they even had trail names picked out for that expansion into the west bowl area.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I am quite surprised that he got it back.




WCAX




> The court on Tuesday granted the request with conditions that travel is  restricted to Canada and Japan and countries passed through on the way.  The trips must be approved in advance by U.S. probation and Stenger must  pledge his principal residence as security.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2019)

Quiros bought the ski area for $21.9 million.  Hundreds of millions were spent improving the place.  It is now allegedly worth somewhere between $80 million and $100 million.  

I'm no business expert, but that seems like a pretty horrible outcome.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> WCAX



Right--I saw that. What I was saying is that I am surprised that the Judge granted his motion considering the size and seriousness of this case.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 10, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Quiros bought the ski area for $21.9 million.  Hundreds of millions were spent improving the place.  It is now allegedly worth somewhere between $80 million and $100 million.
> 
> *I'm no business expert, but that seems like a pretty horrible outcome.*


I tend to agree, though I also do not have an MBA. I don't think the fraud extends to anything outside of the EB-5 situation though, right?
However, if people were 'donating' $500k as part of this, depending on how many he got to buy in, that helps offset that $572M... however, you'd need 1,144 people to give up $500k each to become American citizens to pay for it all.

I honestly don't remember all the details of the EB-5 fraud, how much money was given or how many people received their American citizenship by paying for it.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2019)

I do have an MBA and I do agree; it's a *joke.*  And that artificial manipulation of the market is dangerous & financially harmful to the players that DIDNT commit a massive fraud & get "free" government-transferred money.   If you're Smuggler's Notch etc...., you should be absolutely irate.


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> However, *if people were 'donating' $500k as part of this, depending on how many he got to buy in, that helps offset that $572M*... however, you'd need 1,144 people to give up $500k each to become American citizens to pay for it all.





thetrailboss said:


> This is overlooking the larger point and that is not to be complete xenophobes here. *One cannot say that because these foreign investors were interested in a green card that somehow losing their money to a fraudster is completely OK. I've seen this argument implicitly made in this thread*--that we should not care because these investors were only trying to buy citizenship and that is wrong so them getting bilked is completely fine. Well, that policy debate was had now over 20 years ago and Congress created the EB-5 program. These investments are subject to the same consumer protections available to us as investors. In fact, the biggest reason why so many do invest in America is because of these protections (or at least some form of protection).The argument that because these folks wanted a green card and the fact that they lost their money to a fraudster is OK is complete bullshit.


"Implicit"? 

It's pretty "Explicit"!:roll:


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I do have an MBA and I do agree; it's a *joke.*  And that artificial manipulation of the market is dangerous & financially harmful to the players that DIDNT commit a massive fraud & get "free" government-transferred money.   If you're Smuggler's Notch etc...., you should be absolutely irate.



Why the hell would Smuggler's Notch be irate?


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## mister moose (Dec 10, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Why the hell would Smuggler's Notch be irate?


The State picking winners in the EB-5 sweepstakes of cheap easy capital.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 10, 2019)

abc said:


> "Implicit"?
> 
> It's pretty "Explicit"!:roll:


I guess I should have said 'investing' rather than 'donating'. But, the point still stands.

I don't necessarily disagree with trailboss that those folks who did invest got screwed. However, when you're basically just paying cash for a green card, I don't really feel bad about it going belly-up.
Not saying it's 'OK', but I'm also not going to lose sleep over it or feel bad. I'm sure many others feel the same way, which is I think what trailboss was saying.


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

mister moose said:


> The State picking winners in the EB-5 sweepstakes of cheap easy capital.



But wait, Smuggler's Notch had just as much (as still does) opportunity to use the EB-5 program to upgrade their resort.


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> I guess I should have said 'investing' rather than 'donating'. But, the point still stands.
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree with trailboss that those folks who did invest got screwed. However, when you're basically just paying cash for a green card, I don't really feel bad about it going belly-up.
> Not saying it's 'OK', but I'm also not going to lose sleep over it or feel bad. I'm sure many others feel the same way, which is I think what trailboss was saying.



It's one thing to not feel bad if the investment failed to produce any returns because it was simply a bad investment. It's a completely different thing to not feel bad when it was a failed investment because of fraud. As far as paying cash for a green card, misdirecting your feelings towards individuals that is using a government program to legally enter this county and become a citizen is bullshit.


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> I guess I should have said 'investing' rather than 'donating'. But, the point still stands.
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree with trailboss that those folks who did invest got screwed. However, when you're basically just paying cash for a green card, I don't really feel bad about it going belly-up.
> Not saying it's 'OK', but I'm also not going to lose sleep over it or feel bad. I'm sure many others feel the same way, which is I think what trailboss was saying.


Fraud is fraud. 

Just suppose you PAID $500 for a pair of ski and it never arrived because someone decided to use it for themselves. That's fraud. Do you think if a Mexican paid $500 and never got his skis, it's less of a fraud? I believe that's Trailboss's point.

If you "invest" $500K on a start up and the startup gone bust, that's "risk". But if you invest that same $500K in Enron and lose it all, that's fraud. That's NOT investment risk. Do you understand the difference? 

If all of the Enron investors are Mexicans, does it make the fraud less bad so you "lose less sleep" than if the investors are American?

That, is Trailboss's point, I believe.


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

mbedle said:


> misdirecting your feelings towards individuals that is using a government program to *legally *enter this county and become a citizen is bullshit.


Quite!

Perhaps they should have paid a fraction of that $500K to some smugglers and they can cross the Rio Grande in style. Why bother doing it legally?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> I guess I should have said 'investing' rather than 'donating'. But, the point still stands.
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree with trailboss that those folks who did invest got screwed. However, when you're basically just paying cash for a green card, I don't really feel bad about it going belly-up.
> Not saying it's 'OK', but I'm also not going to lose sleep over it or feel bad. I'm sure many others feel the same way, which is I think what trailboss was saying.



FWIW a lot of the investors have NOT gotten a green card yet because of Q's fraud and inability to create the requisite number of jobs.


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

abc said:


> Quite!
> 
> Perhaps they should have paid a fraction of that $500K to some smugglers and they can cross the Rio Grande in style. Why bother doing it legally?



Thats good. LOL


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## Jcb890 (Dec 10, 2019)

I think I didn't articulate myself well previously...

I am in no way OK with the fraud and agree with them being persecuted, etc. I fundamentally don't agree with the EB-5 program itself I guess which just allows rich people to essentially buy a green card. Anyone who gave $500k is probably more mad about being defrauded out of a green card than they miss that $500k.

All that said... nobody deserves to lose any amount of money due to fraud.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2019)

mister moose said:


> The State picking winners in the EB-5 sweepstakes of cheap easy capital.



Precisely; the whole thing is artificial monkeying with markets, which never ends well.   And in this case, handing Jay Peak $500 MILLION is a massive competitive advantage that not everyone can enjoy.  The entire thing is BS, even without the massive fraud.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2019)

I heard tonight from a fairly reliable source that Vail was never interested in Jay and that Alterra has pulled out.


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## prsboogie (Dec 10, 2019)

PWDR?

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## Orca (Dec 10, 2019)

EB-5 was always a scam


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## VTKilarney (Dec 10, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> PWDR?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app



That’s all my source would tell me.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2019)

They did just pick up a new place. Plus, they had 180 million sitting in the bank.


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## bigbob (Dec 11, 2019)

mbedle said:


> They did just pick up a new place. Plus, they had 180 million sitting in the bank.



Who, Powdr?


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2019)

Yes Powdr, they just bought SilverStar mountain resort in Canada. The 180 million is in reference to the sale of Park City and what, if any, of that money is left is anybody's guess.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 11, 2019)

Is Jay Peak 'worth' buying from an investment/ROI standpoint? Location for people coming from Montreal is good, but that's about it.
I tried to look to see how many visits they get, but couldn't find it easily doing a google search.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Yes Powdr, they just bought SilverStar mountain resort in Canada. The 180 million is in reference to the sale of Park City and what, if any, of that money is left is anybody's guess.



Probably not much.  They are investing a lot into improvements at Killington, Copper, and building a new Woodward in Park City.


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## mbedle (Dec 11, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Probably not much.  They are investing a lot into improvements at Killington, Copper, and building a new Woodward in Park City.



True - I wasn't even thinking about all of those projects.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2019)

mbedle said:


> True - I wasn't even thinking about all of those projects.



John still has a lot of $$$ at his disposal now since Ian died.  

John is also not running POWDR, but instead running my beloved Snowbird.  So far he has not screwed up anything too badly.  Yet.  Although they now have $329.00 knit sweaters for sale in Wings that nobody who visits Snowbird will buy.  :blink:


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## VTKilarney (Dec 11, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> Is Jay Peak 'worth' buying from an investment/ROI standpoint? Location for people coming from Montreal is good, but that's about it.
> I tried to look to see how many visits they get, but couldn't find it easily doing a google search.



For the right price.  They say that they turn a profit.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 11, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> For the right price.  They say that they turn a profit.


Well yeah, anything is worth it for the right price. I wonder how much profit they turn and how many skier/rider visits they get.
I also wonder what type of traffic they get for the hockey rinks, supposedly that is a big/popular draw.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2020)

The latest....

https://vtdigger.org/2020/03/03/jay-voters-pass-budget-items-await-word-on-jay-peak-sale/

Second round of bids coming in.  Alterra was in the first round; no comment as to if they are in the second.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2020)

You could basically copy & paste last years article, just with a little less information.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You could basically copy & paste last years article, just with a little less information.



Yep.  Exactly.


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## slatham (May 28, 2020)

https://www.vpr.org/post/jay-peak-sale-process-substantially-delayed-due-pandemic


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## Smellytele (May 28, 2020)

Like it was moving along before this? Just an excuse


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## VTKilarney (May 28, 2020)

Why would this delay the sale - other than purchasers backing out?


----------



## cdskier (May 28, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Why would this delay the sale - other than purchasers backing out?



You answered your own question. No one is buying ski areas during a pandemic...(unless they were available dirt cheap, but that isn't going to be Jay).


----------



## fbrissette (May 28, 2020)

cdskier said:


> You answered your own question. No one is buying ski areas during a pandemic...(unless they were available dirt cheap, but that isn't going to be Jay).



Worst possible timing for Jay Peak.  The job of the General Receiver is to get as much money as possible from the sale, and Jay Peak is very likely worth a lot less than before with all major players struggling to various extent.  Anyhow, as was discussed before, Jay Peak has been managed very well since being in receivership so as a skier, additional delays do not worry me.  

As a Jay Peak homeowner, I have no clue what impact the sale will eventually have on my resale value, but we bought in as a way of life and not to make money, so whatever will be will be.  Right now, I just want the border to reopen so I can get my mountain bike back,


----------



## JoeB-Z (May 28, 2020)

The receiver is an expert at managing distressed properties by definition. He has done a good job and will not panic. Plus he gets paid to wait it out!


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *Like it was moving along before this? Just an excuse*



Correct, but it's a smart excuse; sort of like setting up a plausible deniability for sales failure for yourself.   This Goldberg guy is nobody's fool. 

 That said, I dont think people have the wool pulled over their eyes, having to admit via court documents that not a single offer was formally submitted is pretty telling.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 29, 2020)

> _contributing to some level of uncertainty, is the *Vermont* Governor *putting a stay against any online or phone based lodging bookings.* This literally *prohibits Jay Peak from any lodging bookings* both close in and *for Winter FY21*._



Beyond asinine.

Vermont has had 1 (read: one) COVID19 death among 623,000 citizens in the last 2 weeks, but sure, let's destroy the entire economy.


----------



## EPB (May 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Beyond asinine.
> 
> Vermont has had 1 (read: one) COVID19 death among 623,000 citizens in the last 2 weeks, but sure, let's destroy the entire economy.


That's the MO. Hopefully they get off the bandwagon before they fully become the Northeast's version of Southern Italy. I have my doubts.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## fbrissette (May 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct, but it's a smart excuse; sort of like setting up a plausible deniability for sales failure for yourself.   This Goldberg guy is nobody's fool.
> 
> That said, I dont think people have the wool pulled over their eyes, having to admit via court documents that not a single offer was formally submitted is pretty telling.




This is completely out of my area of expertise, but I would assume that before an offer is formally submitted, there's gotta be lots of informal discussions.  I can't help but wonder if they were too greedy to begin with.   By all accounts, a profitable resort with mostly new infrastructures (not talking about the ski lifts here) should be an easy sale, especially during the current consolidation period.


----------



## AdironRider (May 29, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> This is completely out of my area of expertise, but I would assume that before an offer is formally submitted, there's gotta be lots of informal discussions.  I can't help but wonder if they were too greedy to begin with.   By all accounts, a profitable resort with mostly new infrastructures (not talking about the ski lifts here) should be an easy sale, especially during the current consolidation period.



It's only been for sale now for what, 3 years? 

I think Jay has much higher street cred on forums than in real life. In real life, it is far away from anywhere of consequence and does not have the greatest conditions ever. 9 out of 10 times its boilerplate just like everywhere else on the East Coast. People go once and say, that was what people were raving about?


----------



## EPB (May 29, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> This is completely out of my area of expertise, but I would assume that before an offer is formally submitted, there's gotta be lots of informal discussions.  I can't help but wonder if they were too greedy to begin with.   By all accounts, a profitable resort with mostly new infrastructures (not talking about the ski lifts here) should be an easy sale, especially during the current consolidation period.



This is tangential to mine. Lots of discussions for sure - both internally (at potential suitors) and between the seller and the five(?) bidders. 

I also suspect the asking price was too high given just how many investors $$$ got sunk into the place, the fact that the higher the recovery the less of a public debacle the fraud appears, and the amount of time it's been on the market.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Smellytele (May 29, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> It's only been for sale now for what, 3 years?
> 
> I think Jay has much higher street cred on forums than in real life. In real life, it is far away from anywhere of consequence and does not have the greatest conditions ever. 9 out of 10 times its boilerplate just like everywhere else on the East Coast. People go once and say, that was what people were raving about?



The trails yes not so with the woods/trees.


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----------



## thetrailboss (May 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The trails yes not so with the woods/trees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Assuming that the lifts are not on windhold.


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## thetrailboss (May 29, 2020)

slatham said:


> https://www.vpr.org/post/jay-peak-sale-process-substantially-delayed-due-pandemic



Makes sense.  Did VT Digger do a deeper dive on the issue?  

IIRC it went on the market in 2019 or so and the usual suspects were interested.  That said, I can understand why nobody has submitted a bid in the last two months or so.  As to why not before, "?"


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## thetrailboss (May 29, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> This is tangential to mine. Lots of discussions for sure - both internally (at potential suitors) and between the seller and the five(?) bidders.
> 
> I also suspect the asking price was too high given just how many investors $$$ got sunk into the place, the fact that the higher the recovery the less of a public debacle the fraud appears, and the amount of time it's been on the market.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



The Receiver is certainly in between a rock and a hard place in terms of selling.  As you said, he investors are owed a lot of $$$ that Q never ever intended to pay back.  So yes the price was probably on the higher end because they were stuck.


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## Dickc (May 29, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Right now, I just want the border to reopen so I can get my mountain bike back,



Can you get hold of anyone there and have it shipped to you?  A property manager or the like?


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## gregnye (May 29, 2020)

They've been trying for 3 years to sell it and no one wants Jay. Perhaps Vermont could make it state-run like Cannon? 

A Cannon-Jay-Burke pass would be sweet. One can dream

I could see the skiing of Jay being state-run like Cannon, with amenities (hotels, waterparks, etc.) contracted out like the National Park service does for their hotels, bus services and restaurants within their parks.


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## mister moose (May 29, 2020)

gregnye said:


> They've been trying for 3 years to sell it and no one wants Jay. Perhaps Vermont could make it state-run like Cannon?


Of course someone wants it if the price is right. I'll buy it for ten dollars.  The problem is buying at a price the creditors will approve given the amount they stand to lose, and what the court will deem in their collective best interest.  In other words, the minimum bid asked by the receiver was too high for the bidders.




thetrailboss said:


> The Receiver is certainly in between a rock and a hard place in terms of selling.  As you said, he investors are owed a lot of $$$ that Q never ever intended to pay back.  So yes the price was probably on the higher end because they were stuck.


​You have to sell at a price an educated buyer is willing to pay.  There is no hard place, only losses to be absorbed by the creditors.


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## BenedictGomez (May 29, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> This is completely out of my area of expertise, but I would assume that before an offer is formally submitted, there's gotta be lots of informal discussions.  *I can't help but wonder if they were too greedy to begin with. *  By all accounts, a profitable resort with mostly new infrastructures (not talking about the ski lifts here) should be an easy sale, especially during the current consolidation period.



Yes, this is a good point.   

I'm too busy to look it up right now, but I believe they were rumored to be asking for a multiple of something like 10x, whereas I think something closer to 6x is more typical in the industry.  I just remember thinking, _"pfffftttt"_..... when I read the rumored asking price.


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## machski (May 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The trails yes not so with the woods/trees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


That is not necessarily true either.  I've gone to Jay thinking they would get the goods, they didn't and the woods were rock solid ice moguls.  Not much fun at all that day in particular and I've had others the woods didn't really deliver on at Jay.  It is a mountain that has to be timed correctly to have a great experience, even the woods.  That is a tough spot for a distant "resort" area which is what the asking price makes Jay.  It's lack of Snowmaking ability to recover for inclement New England weather o think is a major hole in getting the asking price they are for it, regardless of all the side extras they have.

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## VTKilarney (May 29, 2020)

Jay may seem like it’s in the middle of nowhere, but its proximity to Montreal should not be underestimated, especially when you realize how small many of the Laurentian resorts are.


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## Cobbold (May 29, 2020)

*Off topic/ Bousquet was sold today*

Would post this in its own thread, but don’t know how,  Bousquet ski area in Pittsfield was sold to mill town partners, and Berkshire East will operate the ski area, Bousquet will be on the Berkshire summit pass, which includes Berkshire East and catamount.


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## dblskifanatic (May 29, 2020)

gregnye said:


> They've been trying for 3 years to sell it and no one wants Jay. Perhaps Vermont could make it state-run like Cannon?
> 
> A Cannon-Jay-Burke pass would be sweet. One can dream
> 
> I could see the skiing of Jay being state-run like Cannon, with amenities (hotels, waterparks, etc.) contracted out like the National Park service does for their hotels, bus services and restaurants within their parks.



Two different states!


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## BenedictGomez (May 29, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> *Jay may seem like it’s in the middle of nowhere, but its proximity to Montreal should not be underestimated*, especially when you realize how small many of the Laurentian resorts are.



I agree with this.  With the huge caveat that Jay's proximity to Montreal should not be overestimated either.


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## ScottySkis (May 30, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Would post this in its own thread, but don’t know how,  Bousquet ski area in Pittsfield was sold to mill town partners, and Berkshire East will operate the ski area, Bousquet will be on the Berkshire summit pass, which includes Berkshire East and catamount.



It's easy to start new thread:

Instead of going into existing thread on website
Just click POST NEW THREAD
And write what u want
I guess I started a few over the years lol


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## AdironRider (Jun 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I agree with this.  With the huge caveat that Jay's proximity to Montreal should not be overestimated either.



To your latter point, Tremblant is marginally closer, consistently ranked higher as a resort, and no border crossing. Jay is probably the third or fourth option at best for the Montreal skier. 

The receiver screwed up by demanding top tier resort money for a second rate option. At least he knew Burke was a boat anchor that will lose money and said as much. 

I think the investors better get comfortable being ski resort owners. Their best best to get their money back is to harvest profits if they can.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 2, 2020)

If only Bill Stenger knew about the fraud.  He could have done something!


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## Cobbold (Jun 2, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> If only Bill Stenger knew about the fraud.  He could have done something!



 Not to sound stupid, but who is bill Stenger?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Not to sound stupid, but who is bill Stenger?



None other than Mr. Jay Peak himself.  

https://vtdigger.org/?s=Bill+Stenger

https://vtdigger.org/tag/bill-stenger/


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## urungus (Jul 16, 2020)

https://vtdigger.org/2020/07/10/qui...s-expects-to-plead-guilty-in-eb-5-fraud-case/


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 16, 2020)

Well there's an interesting plot twist. 

Not good for Stenger.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 17, 2020)

yeah especially since Stenger's camp didn't know about it... 

Still hard to believe he got himself wrapped up in this mess


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## fbrissette (Jul 17, 2020)

With Quiros pleading guilty, we will likely learn the details of this mess.  Whether this is good (or not) for Stenger remains to be seen.

One thing is sure, Jay Peak is now in a terrible position for the upcoming winter.  There is a high likelihood that border travel will be affected throughout the next ski season and Jay Peak has got to be US ski resort most dependent on Canadian business.  Even if the US allow border crossings at land points in the near future, this will be moot as long as the quarantine order remains in effect on the Canadian side.  And I now can't see this happening before 2021 at the best. 

Looks like I might try to rent my Jay Peak condo for the upcoming season.   Since I cant use my car, looks like I will have to fly into Boston, rent a truck, and drive into Jay Peak to clear my personal gear, and then go through a 14 days quarantine.   This is ridiculous considering I could drive in and out without stopping anywhere (even for cheap gas).

Anybody interested in a ski in ski out seasonal rental ?


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 17, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> With Quiros pleading guilty, we will likely learn the details of this mess.  *Whether this is good (or not) for Stenger remains to be seen.*



Ohhhhhhh......not.  So, very, very not.  

 This is like reading 264 pages of a 300 page novel, and years later we're now finally going to read the last 36 pages.


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## fbrissette (Jul 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ohhhhhhh......not.  So, very, very not.
> 
> This is like reading 264 pages of a 300 page novel, and years later we're now finally going to read the last 36 pages.



Those last pages are gonna be real good me thinks.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 17, 2020)

I don’t see how this is terribly bad for Stenger. Stenger cooperated from the outset and, in all likelihood, Quiros is pleading guilty because Stenger cooperated. 

Stenger will get the benefit of his cooperation when it comes time for his sentencing.

In federal criminal law it is usually a race to see who turns first. Stenger won that race.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 17, 2020)

I don’t see how this is terribly bad for Stenger. Stenger cooperated from the outset and, in all likelihood, Quiros is pleading guilty because Stenger cooperated. 

Stenger will get the benefit of his cooperation when it comes time for his sentencing.

In federal criminal law it is usually a race to see who turns first. Stenger won that race.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 18, 2020)

A lot depends on the deal Stegner has.  Did he cooperate with a deal to be no longer prosecuted in the future?  Is there new information that was not disclosed that could void any agreements?  Was the laundering of money?  There are a lot of questions!

I know a restaurant owner of a small restaurant that all of a sudden has been able to own two houses. Has all kinds of man toys and is living large even in the depths of COVID.  

Businesses all over are handling dirty money and Jay Peak would have been perfect.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2020)

Two pieces of news:

1) Quiros has entered a guilty plea: https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/14/quiros-admits-to-federal-crimes-in-eb-5-fraud/
2) A worker is accused of embezzling $125,000: https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/13/jay...ezzling-over-125000-set-to-enter-guilty-plea/


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## Edd (Aug 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Two pieces of news:
> 
> 1) Quiros has entered a guilty plea: https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/14/quiros-admits-to-federal-crimes-in-eb-5-fraud/
> 2) A worker is accused of embezzling $125,000: https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/13/jay...ezzling-over-125000-set-to-enter-guilty-plea/



How about the balls on that employee? I didn’t see her position mentioned. 

I wonder what Quiros has spent on legal fees.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> 2) A worker is accused of embezzling $125,000: https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/13/jay...ezzling-over-125000-set-to-enter-guilty-plea/



Yet another example of ski area accounting amateur hour.   I'm beginning to think this entire industry has virtually no finance or accounting controls. 

 I wonder if she knows the woman who did this at Smuggs & got arrested a few years back. LOL


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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yet another example of ski area accounting amateur hour.   I'm beginning to think this entire industry has virtually no finance or accounting controls.
> 
> I wonder if she knows the woman who did this at Smuggs & got arrested a few years back. LOL



I was going to mention that other case.  She was just following the example of the Q.  Too bad she doesn't know some political higher ups to help her out.  

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/ne...cle_89465c4a-6fcd-5f1b-be33-7fc95014ca80.html


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## thetrailboss (Aug 15, 2020)

Edd said:


> How about the balls on that employee? I didn’t see her position mentioned.



According to the Cal Rec, group sales.  She was diverting refunds, debit gift cards, discounts, and other funds intended for customers to herself.  



> I wonder what Quiros has spent on legal fees.



Paid?  Relatively little.  He lost one set of attorneys for failing to pay them.  Billed?  Probably a lot between the civil and criminal cases.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 16, 2020)

Jay Peak is appealing its property tax assessment.

The article has this nugget about the efforts to sell the resort:
_Eventually, Kopp said, the field narrowed to about 10, with a handful submitting credible “expressions of interest,” or nonbinding offers, ranging from $38 million to $70 million for the resort._
https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/16/jay...operty-assessment-by-half-saving-1m-in-taxes/


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 16, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Paid?  Relatively little.*  He lost one set of attorneys for failing to pay them. * Billed?  Probably a lot between the civil and criminal cases.



I've noticed this seems to happen an awful lot in these high-profile cases for whatever reason.  I guess if you're dirtbag enough to pull off a heist like this or any other XYZ crime, then it shouldn't be shocking that you'd be the sort of person to have no qualms over stiffing your lawyer(s).


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## thetrailboss (Aug 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've noticed this seems to happen an awful lot in these high-profile cases for whatever reason.  I guess if you're dirtbag enough to pull off a heist like this or any other XYZ crime, then it shouldn't be shocking that you'd be the sort of person to have no qualms over stiffing your lawyer(s).



Exactly.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 17, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay Peak is appealing its property tax assessment.
> 
> The article has this nugget about the efforts to sell the resort:
> _Eventually, Kopp said, the field narrowed to about 10, with a handful submitting credible “expressions of interest,” or nonbinding offers, ranging from $38 million to $70 million for the resort._
> https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/16/jay...operty-assessment-by-half-saving-1m-in-taxes/



If those offers are legit, those are a long ways from what the Receiver was hoping....by about half.

I imagine that the border closure is killing them.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 17, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> If those offers are legit, those are a long ways from what the Receiver was hoping....by about half.
> 
> I imagine that the border closure is killing them.



I am sure that the border closure is killing them, but I am also sure that those offers assumed that the border would be open soon.  I doubt anyone thinks that the border will remained closed for longer than this season - and even then I suspect it will be open for at least part of this season.  It just underscores how badly the investors got ripped off.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 18, 2020)

Not surprising, but Jay Peak's summer business has taken a huge hit:

_General Manager Steve Wright says the resort is 85% to 90% off it’s normal numbers for hotel rentals, most of the weddings and all of the conferences have been canceled, and golf, a popular summertime activity, is way down.

Normally in the summer, Jay Peak employs up to 650 people; currently there are less than 100 people working there.

In the winter, the busier season, the resort, just four miles from the Canadian border, usually has 1,500 employees. But Wright said hiring this year will depend on how much cross-state travel is allowed and if the border reopens.

“We’re going to build the most impossibly conservative model, from a staffing and expense and a revenue perspective, that we can,” Wright said. “But it will be a model that will be built to scale up.”_

https://www.vpr.org/post/canadian-border-closed-nek-tourist-spots-see-big-drop#stream/0


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 18, 2020)

yeah the border being closed really screws Jay...


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2020)

On the bright side, the weekend skiing at Jay Peak will be like it's 1999 again!  I'm all over that.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 19, 2020)

are you allowed to go to VT from your NJ?    Seems like very few counties meet their "threshold" for non-quarantine.  

Otherwise, yes Jay will be a ghost town


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## VTKilarney (Aug 19, 2020)

And now Burke is challenging its tax assessment.  The town valued Burke at $18,722,700.  Burke says that fair market value is $11,210,000.  The article says that the resort has lost more than $1 million a year for each of the last three years, though that number has been declining.

Keep in mind that the hotel and conference center cost $67 million to build.  Quiros bought the resort for $7 million, so according to Burke Mountain the $67 million hotel has only added $4.2 million in value to the resort.

https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/18/bur...seeks-to-slash-town-assessment-by-40-percent/


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> are you allowed to go to VT from your NJ?    Seems like very few counties meet their "threshold" for non-quarantine.




I live in the only county in NJ that's "allowed" to go to VT.  We're pretty rural & pretty educated, which I imagine are 2 large parts of that puzzle.  In fact, we have less COVID19, ironically, that a handful of VT counties, and that's even with VT not taking into account cases confined to prisons, which I really think they should.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> * The town valued Burke at $18,722,700.  Burke says that fair market value is $11,210,000.*  The article says that the resort has lost more than $1 million a year for each of the last three years, though that number has been declining.



I'll bid $1, Bob.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 19, 2020)

Lucky You!  and LOL  yes I'll Take Burke for $1


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## VTKilarney (Oct 12, 2020)

Update on the criminal cases.

Stenger is still doing his best Sgt. Schultz impression.

https://vtdigger.org/2020/10/09/stenger-quiros-courtroom-clash-looms-in-eb-5-criminal-fraud-case/


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## mister moose (Oct 12, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Update on the criminal cases.
> 
> Stenger is still doing his best Sgt. Schultz impression.


While it is tough to believe Stenger had zero knowledge of the spaghetti like money trail that was oozing out of Jay Peak, all the information to date shows Stenger was not the beneficiary of that spaghetti.  That's a very important difference.

My 2 cents is Stenger will have sleepless nights, a large legal bill and probation, with a small fine.  He may be barred from certain positions in the future.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2020)

mister moose said:


> While it is tough to believe Stenger had zero knowledge of the spaghetti like money trail that was oozing out of Jay Peak, all the information to date shows Stenger was not the beneficiary of that spaghetti.  That's a very important difference.



I find it very difficult to believe Stenger wasnt benefitting somehow, and if it's known that he was it will come out during the trial.

As it stands, their current legal defense is, _"Actually, Bill Stenger is the dumbest son-bitch on the planet"_, and I'm just not buying it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 13, 2020)

I still have a little hope that he is the "dumbest SOB on the planet" because pre this he was a ski area god.  Now he's not even Less Otter...  LOL 

Also agree if he's got a giant Cayman bank account somewhere it'll be presented at trail... 

The whole Jay Peak thing was too good to be true.  Now they can't even sell the damn thing.  Almost crazy to think that's even a possibility with all that's been added there.   I first visited Jay in 2000.  It was a modest ski area that got lots of snow, had a gravel parking lot and damn near everyone spoke French.  not so much now...


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## abc (Oct 13, 2020)

Jay has refunded all the season pass money to Canadians!

Is that a "bombshell" or what? (befitting the title)


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## machski (Oct 13, 2020)

abc said:


> Jay has refunded all the season pass money to Canadians!
> 
> Is that a "bombshell" or what? (befitting the title)


A good move considering the uncertainty with the border closure going forward.  Another thing I saw was that should the border reopen prior to the season, Jay will make passes available to Canadians at tier 1 lowest prices.  Should the border open during the season, Jay will make passes available to Canadians at a pro-rated cost based on season remaining.  Given they get around 50% of their business from North of the border, a very good move I think.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## fbrissette (Oct 13, 2020)

machski said:


> A good move considering the uncertainty with the border closure going forward.  Another thing I saw was that should the border reopen prior to the season, Jay will make passes available to Canadians at tier 1 lowest prices.  Should the border open during the season, Jay will make passes available to Canadians at a pro-rated cost based on season remaining.  Given they get around 50% of their business from North of the border, a very good move I think.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



A nice gesture indeed.  However, many of the Canadians with season passes have decided to get a pass somewhere else. I pulled the trigger on an Ikon pass and will ski Tremblant this winter.  I rented my Jay Peak condo for the season.   It does not matter anymore if the border reopens, no Vermont for me this winter.  Sucks.  And I cannot get ski in ski out accommodation at Tremblant for the price I rent my condo at Jay. So I'm back to driving and booting up in the parking lot.  Tough life...


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## JimG. (Oct 13, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Update on the criminal cases.
> 
> Stenger is still doing his best Sgt. Schultz impression.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2020/10/09/stenger-quiros-courtroom-clash-looms-in-eb-5-criminal-fraud-case/



Maybe they need to give him some chocolate.


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## abc (Oct 13, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> A nice gesture indeed.  However, many of the Canadians with season passes have decided to get a pass somewhere else. I pulled the trigger on an Ikon pass and will ski Tremblant this winter....


Without the Canadians, Jay Peak will be much quieter this season...


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## dlague (Oct 13, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> A nice gesture indeed.  However, many of the Canadians with season passes have decided to get a pass somewhere else. I pulled the trigger on an Ikon pass and will ski Tremblant this winter.  I rented my Jay Peak condo for the season.   It does not matter anymore if the border reopens, no Vermont for me this winter.  Sucks.  And I cannot get ski in ski out accommodation at Tremblant for the price I rent my condo at Jay. So I'm back to driving and booting up in the parking lot.  Tough life...



Never thought about border issues but a friend of mine flew out of Montreal to Boston last weekend and visiting for the week.  So you can fly out just not drive out!  Hmmmm


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## urungus (Oct 13, 2020)

dlague said:


> Never thought about border issues but a friend of mine flew out of Montreal to Boston last weekend and visiting for the week.  So you can fly out just not drive out!  Hmmmm



Very odd alright:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-u-s-border-closure-fly-travel-covid-19-1.5754763


----------



## EPB (Oct 13, 2020)

urungus said:


> Very odd alright:
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-u-s-border-closure-fly-travel-covid-19-1.5754763


Seems beneficial to the economy of places like FL... Not sure exactly how much it moves the needle though.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Oct 13, 2020)

urungus said:


> Very odd alright:
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-u-s-border-closure-fly-travel-covid-19-1.5754763


Well, Europeans can fly here if they want.  They may not be welcomed back to Europe post travel however.  Same goes for Canadians.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 13, 2020)

abc said:


> Without the Canadians, Jay Peak will be much quieter this season...



In more ways than one.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 13, 2020)

urungus said:


> Very odd alright:
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/canada-u-s-border-closure-fly-travel-covid-19-1.5754763



Logically I find it far more odd from the Canadian perspective to allow it, than from the American perspective to allow it given COVID19 rates are higher in the USA.   Yet the Canadian media presents the story linked above as,_ "gosh, America is so puzzling with this"_, LOL.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 14, 2020)

dlague said:


> Never thought about border issues but a friend of mine flew out of Montreal to Boston last weekend and visiting for the week.  So you can fly out just not drive out!  Hmmmm
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



In August, I flew into Logan and rented a pick-up truck to empty my condo and get all of my ski stuff home when it became obvious there would be no skiing in Vermont this winter.  Not sure why it's not possible to cross the land border for personal business (I tried) but it is OK to fly. 

There was a 400$ one-way drop off charge for the truck in Montreal...   Still way cheaper than buying new ski gear.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Logically I find it far more odd from the Canadian perspective to allow it, than from the American perspective to allow it given COVID19 rates are higher in the USA.   Yet the Canadian media presents the story linked above as,_ "gosh, America is so puzzling with this"_, LOL.



You have to quarantine for 2 weeks on your way back, and they do follow-up to make sure you are doing it.  So nobody will fly out unless they really have to.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> In August, I flew into Logan and rented a pick-up truck to empty my condo and get all of my ski stuff home when it became obvious there would be no skiing in Vermont this winter.  .


Umm... you didn't quarantine in Vermont for 14 days prior to taking your gear back to Canada?


----------



## abc (Oct 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Umm... you didn't quarantine in Vermont for 14 days prior to taking your gear back to Canada?


"Transit" passengers don't need to quarantine.

He's on his way from Boston to Montreal...


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Umm... you didn't quarantine in Vermont for 14 days prior to taking your gear back to Canada?
> 
> View attachment 27080



Did not stop anywhere in Vermont beside my condo, did not interact with anyone.  

Flying was an interesting experience.  A total of five flights total for the day from Montreal to the US, and only one in early afternoon.  Total of 8 passengers out of 120 seats.   The Montreal US concourse was completely empty (beside a single Air Canada employee), 3 people waiting for me at security and a single official at the US border.

The whole thing was safer than going grocery shopping.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Did not stop anywhere in Vermont beside my condo, did not interact with anyone.


That's fine, but Vermont rules still required you to quarantine.

Don't get me wrong... I am pointing out the absurdity of it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

abc said:


> "Transit" passengers don't need to quarantine.
> 
> He's on his way from Boston to Montreal...


With a stop at his Vermont condo, which means that he is not a transit passenger.  

The rule says that if you are "visiting Vermont" you  must quarantine.  Going to your condo to clean it out is a "visit" to Vermont.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Flying was an interesting experience.  A total of five flights total for the day from Montreal to the US, and only one in early afternoon.  Total of 8 passengers out of 120 seats.   The Montreal US concourse was completely empty (beside a single Air Canada employee), 3 people waiting for me at security and a single official at the US border.



I flew round trip from Lebanon, New Hampshire to Boston earlier this summer.  I was the only passenger on the plane both ways.  In Lebanon there were three TSA Agents to screen one passenger.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 14, 2020)

I thought the VT quarantine rule was 14 days and it could either be at home or in VT.  Or 7 days and a negative test


----------



## abc (Oct 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> With a stop at his Vermont condo, which means that he is not a transit passenger.
> 
> The rule says that if you are "visiting Vermont" you  must quarantine.  Going to your condo to clean it out is a "visit" to Vermont.


Transit passengers are still allowed to stop for food and even stay in hotel overnight if the distance requires. He's just stopping at his condo to get some food from the frig.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

abc said:


> Transit passengers are still allowed to stop for food and even stay in hotel overnight if the distance requires. He's just stopping at his condo to get some food from the frig.



Are you being dense on purpose?  What part of "cleaning out the condo" constitutes "just eating"?

Also, if someone lives out of state and goes to Vermont with the specific intent of cleaning out a residence, they are not a mere "transit passenger.  By your definition you could say that you stopped at Killington to ski while transiting from Boston and back.

And are you sure that there is a "transit" exemption?  I don't see one listed here:
https://www.healthvermont.gov/response/coronavirus-covid-19/traveling-vermont

Again, I think the rule taken literally is absurd.  I am just pointing out that technically it is a violation of the quarantine rule.

The irony is that the people who are most likely to break the quarantine rule are the people that are most likely to engage in rule-breaking and/or risky behavior.  So the result is that the people most likely to be sick with Covid are still coming to Vermont, while those who are being more cautious stay away.

Oh, and let's not forget that Massachusetts has a 14 day quarantine rule as well.  Oddly enough, their rule has an exemption for connecting to a plane, but not from a plane.
https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-travel-order#quarantine-requirement-and-testing-options-


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I thought the VT quarantine rule was 14 days and it could either be at home or in VT.  Or 7 days and a negative test



Yes.  He could have stayed at his condo for 14 days and then moved everything out.   Or seven days followed by a negative test.


----------



## machski (Oct 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Yes.  He could have stayed at his condo for 14 days and then moved everything out.   Or seven days followed by a negative test.


You are incorrect here Kilarney, visitors must Quarantine for the 14 days or the entire time they are in Vermont if less than 14 days.  You do not have to remain in Vermont 14 days if you went to your own home/condo, you just have to stay there and only there for the balance of your time in VT.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dlague (Oct 14, 2020)

machski said:


> You are incorrect here Kilarney, visitors must Quarantine for the 14 days or the entire time they are in Vermont if less than 14 days.  You do not have to remain in Vermont 14 days if you went to your own home/condo, you just have to stay there and only there for the balance of your time in VT.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



How many people are actually following that protocol?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 14, 2020)

dlague said:


> How many people are actually following that protocol?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Personally I follow my own protocol of good common sense.   The official protocols range from reasonable to downright absurd in some cases.


----------



## abc (Oct 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Are you being dense on purpose? What part of "cleaning out the condo" constitutes "just eating"?





machski said:


> You are incorrect here Kilarney, visitors must Quarantine for the 14 days or the entire time they are in Vermont if less than 14 days.  You do not have to remain in Vermont 14 days if you went to your own home/condo, you just have to stay there and only there for the balance of your time in VT.


When you're being dense on purpose, so should everyone else.

You didn't fully understand the rules. But you're happy to apply it randomly. I did the same, by picking a different random point, just for the fun of it. But you seem very serious in believing your own misunderstanding!

There's nothing wrong with the rules. There're reasonable exemption to handle the above situation nicely. It's you who slam the rules as absurd when it's just your MIS-understanding of it that is absurd.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> A nice gesture indeed.  However, many of the Canadians with season passes have decided to get a pass somewhere else. I pulled the trigger on an Ikon pass and will ski Tremblant this winter.  I rented my Jay Peak condo for the season.   It does not matter anymore if the border reopens, no Vermont for me this winter.  Sucks.  And I cannot get ski in ski out accommodation at Tremblant for the price I rent my condo at Jay. So I'm back to driving and booting up in the parking lot.  Tough life...


Curious why you chose Tremblant vs say Sutton or Orford?  Wouldn't those areas offer a more Jay like experience than Tremblant?

I haven't skied any of them.  I've just always been under the impression that Tremblant is something similar to say Stratton where as the Laurentians have more of the ungroomed and tree skiing experience Jay is known for. 

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Oct 14, 2020)

This is a rather bizarre discussion. The whole point of VT requiring a quarantine is so that you don't infect other people you come into contact with in case you are sick. If you go only to your own private residence and nowhere else, there's really no point in forcing you to stay there for 14 days before subsequently leaving the state. It is quite different from someone going to VT only for a day trip to ski where they are obviously out in public.

VT does address this specific point in their FAQ:


> If I am staying in Vermont for less than the minimum quarantine time, may I still come to Vermont?
> 
> Yes, but only if you are in full quarantine at the lodging establishment or private residence in which you are staying while in Vermont. Quarantine means you do not leave the room or house in which you are staying and make no trips to the grocery store, restaurants or any other places where you will come in contact with others. Using lodging property amenities such as pools, spas, gyms, recreation equipment or other general use facilities is also not permitted.



So if someone goes to only their own residence to clean it out and does not come into contact with others, there's absolutely no requirement to stay "in quarantine" for 14 days before leaving VT. VT point blank says so.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 14, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Curious why you chose Tremblant vs say Sutton or Orford?  Wouldn't those areas offer a more Jay like experience than Tremblant?
> 
> I haven't skied any of them.  I've just always been under the impression that Tremblant is something similar to say Stratton where as the Laurentians have more of the ungroomed and tree skiing experience Jay is known for.
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app



Your correct in your assessment of Orford and especially Sutton.  Picked Tremblant because I have friends up there and because I'm going to BC for a week of backcountry skiing in February and before that I'll ski Sunshine, Lake louise and revelstoke, which are all on the Ikon pass. In addition, Tremblant will be less busy with winter because of travel restrictions.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Your correct in your assessment of Orford and especially Sutton.  Picked Tremblant because I have friends up there and because I'm going to BC for a week of backcountry skiing in February and before that I'll ski Sunshine, Lake louise and revelstoke, which are all on the Ikon pass. In addition, Tremblant will be less busy with winter because of travel restrictions.


Domestic or International?

I know quite a few people who have skied Tremblant, but it's like a once every ten year thing just to check it out.  I didn't think a vast amount of Americans made up the crazy crowds I read about there. 

Either way, I hope you manage a great season given the circumstances.  Hopefully all is reasonably back to normal at Jay for you next season.  

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 15, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Domestic or International?
> 
> I know quite a few people who have skied Tremblant, but it's like a once every ten year thing just to check it out.  I didn't think a vast amount of Americans made up the crazy crowds I read about there.
> 
> ...



I assume more domestic traffic this year, but no internationals at all.  This is quite puzzling to me, but there is a large number of Europeans who ski Tremblant and also a relatively large number of US skiers during the usual big holiday periods.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2020)

A must read:  









						A ski resort, a dream and greed: How a $350M fraud happened in Vermont’s poorest region
					

Former Jay Peak President Bill Stenger was sentenced last week to 18 months in prison. Here's our in-depth piece on how it all began.




					www.burlingtonfreepress.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 15, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> A must read:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for sharing. very interesting, but parts 2-4 are behind a paywall. cheapskate request to copy/paste the article? thanks


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 15, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks for sharing. very interesting, but parts 2-4 are behind a paywall. cheapskate request to copy/paste the article? thanks


I don’t have access either...


----------



## Harvey (Dec 15, 2020)

Honor the paywall.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 16, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Honor the paywall.



i pay for a lot of media that i consume regu;arly, but the burlington free press isnt one of them.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 16, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i pay for a lot of media that i consume regu;arly, but the burlington free press isnt one of them.



The name of the Burlington Free Press is a bit ironic...


----------



## NYDB (Dec 16, 2020)

Kinda funny Q was only worth 4mil at the beginning of this fiasco and that was mostly just real estate equity.  

Total con man.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Dec 16, 2020)

So digital access is $3 for three months - here is the catch by most of these types of digital newspapers - it goes into automatic renewal until you cancel it.  So unless to cancel after the story is read ot mark your calendar, you could be on the hook for more than $3 without even realizing it!  They even put the paragraph in light gray and smaller font.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 16, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Kinda funny Q was only worth 4mil at the beginning of this fiasco and that was mostly just real estate equity.
> 
> Total con man.


I could not believe that one either.  

I laughed at his Jeep video idea.  Completely narcissistic.  And the Q mirror?!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2021)

This continues.  Some of the lines in here are pure gold.  Obvious conflicts of interest.  Trying to make the fifth floor of a hotel a separate project in order to backfill shortfalls in other projects (said floor was already built and paid for by previous investors!). And once again makes VT officials look like Keystone Cops on the very least and fraudsters at most. 










						Receiver settles $8M case with lawyers close to Stenger in EB-5 fraud case
					

Ed Carroll and Mark Scribner simultaneously represented the interests of the Jay Peak corporation and immigrants seeking green cards. The attorneys allegedly aided Bill Stenger in duping investors.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## sull1102 (Jan 3, 2021)

Just read updates in this whole debacle for the first time in a year or so, still too bizarre. Cannot believe this was going on while The Hermitage was at the southern end of the state with in some ways very similar problems just on a far different scale. Makes you think about both the State of VT and the ski industry as a whole in a different light.


----------



## abc (Jan 3, 2021)

sull1102 said:


> Just read updates in this whole debacle for the first time in a year or so, still too bizarre. Cannot believe this was going on while The Hermitage was at the southern end of the state with in some ways very similar problems just on a far different scale. Makes you think about both the State of VT and the ski industry as a whole in a different light.


Is it just the ski industry? 

There used to be this company called Enron...


----------



## O09 (Jan 3, 2021)

It's easy for there to be moral hazard when there is all this no/low interest foreign Eb-5 loan money flowing in.  That money then gets tied up for longer than the 5 year loan term  because the visa quotas are capped and the program is oversubscribed.  For example, say China is allowed 10,000 green cards per year for the program, but there are 50,000 investors that have put in their money into different projects.  Investors get put in line to get their green card and that wait can be up to 15+ years long.  The money, however, remains tied up for that 15 year period of time and doesn't get repaid until they get their visa.  It becomes free money to the resorts or any development corporation using it through the United States.  

When Vermont got their regional center shut down, Mount Snow then had to repay their 52 million dollar loan for Carinthia project at the end of the 5 year loan term since the "material change" (shut down of the Vermont Regional Center) altered the investors applications so that they wouldn't receive a green card.  That money would have been due in 2021 had Peaks not sold the company beforehand, but the reality that all developers know about, is that the no interest money gets extended by up to a decade while the investors wait for the green card. 

Another problem lies when a state regulators are allowed to get paid as a contractors/advisors for the developers.  For example, the Newport airport runway expansion was essential to the bio-medical facility.  You need to fly in scientists.  The state of Vermont knows that there is a pool of Federal funds available for 5000 foot runway expansions and this in theory improves Vermont infrastructure and is something they want.  So the Vtrans airport regulator makes relationships with the developers and smooths the process through the Act 250 process by writing official letters in support of the project, sidestepping environmental concerns, and also receiving outside payment for this official act. The fraud continues to looks legit, more money flows in, state is happy.  

Barnes tried the same runway expansion trick at the Dover airport to keep his fraud going, but when it was found out that none of the planes they planned on flying in would need that long of a runway, the whole scam unraveled.  Thank goodness too.  Just look at Newport with the airport's one room terminal, 5000 foot runway, and giant hole in their downtown.


----------



## eatskisleep (Jan 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Is it just the ski industry?
> 
> There used to be this company called Enron...


Don’t forget Theranos!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2021)

Bump.  Still going.  









						Attorney general slow-walks discovery of documents in EB-5 fraud case
					

The Vermont Attorney General's office has asked the court for permission to redact records and charge tens of thousands of dollars to produce them. The state also wants to stall depositions of state officials, including former Gov. Peter Shumlin.



					vtdigger.org
				




And why is this such an important case?  Here is the big concern in a nutshell:



> Representations about state oversight were the No. 1 reason investors say they put their faith and $500,000 each into the Northeast Kingdom developments, according to Barr’s opposition to the state’s motion for a protective order. In one prime example, Shumlin claimed in a video translated into Chinese that the developments were audited by the state. In fact, the finances at Jay Peak were never audited.
> 
> One expert testified that, with fierce competition for EB-5 investors, “these auditing representations provided the pivotal sell point for the Jay Peak investments.”
> 
> ...


----------



## O09 (Mar 23, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.  Still going.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Deputy Secretary Moulton said in an email obtained by VTDigger that the idea of pressuring Rapid came from Stenger, who suggested that they make surrendering the URL a condition of the state’s approval of Mount Snow’s memorandum of understanding. Moulton “endorsed” the idea in an internal email in January 2013. Miller wrote in response:  “…I like it…tough to hold Mount Snow ‘hostage’ but Hulme should snap in line versus lose that client…” Six months later, Raymond took that approach a step further. “I’d like to discuss methods to ensure no approval of the Mount Snow project is granted as long as Rapid Visa is a representative associated in any way with their private offering,” he wrote in an email response."

So Brent Raymond, the director of the Vermont Regional Center delays Mount Snow from getting approval for their EB-5 project as a way to pressure the Jay Peak whistleblower, Hulme of RapidVisa USA, from doing business in the state specifically with Hulme's Mount Snow client.  Later, after the Vermont Regional Center was shut down, Mount Snow hired Brent Raymond to form their separate EB-5 regional center.  Imagine being hired by a corporation that you just screwed over.  Crazy.  

I wonder if that delay in EB-5 approval was what made Peaks Resort take the 20 million dollar loan from the Sacklers to fund the first year of construction for the West Lake project.


----------



## sull1102 (Mar 23, 2021)

Wow, I mean how are there not many government officials and others going to at least some country club jail for a couple years for these games. This is nuts.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 24, 2021)

It looks like Mr. Raymond is still in the EB-5 business.  



			https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentraymond/


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It looks like Mr. Raymond is still in the EB-5 business.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentraymond/


Right.  Nobody who was on the State side of the deal has suffered any real consequence.  Moulton became President of VTC.  Shumlin did opt not to run for reelection (perhaps as a result of this) but, at last check, is now adjunct faculty at Harvard.

From my POV the video of Shumlin looking into the camera and telling potential investors that the State "audits these projects" when it did not is particularly damning.  Of course I imagine he will say that he was "told" to say that, perhaps by Stenger, but that State seal of approval is pretty bad.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

Not good.









						Raymond James battles Jay Peak receiver over millions he ‘desperately’ needs
					

The financial investment firm claims it is entitled to 75% of the money based on the terms of its earlier agreement with the court-appointed receiver, Michael Goldberg.



					vtdigger.org
				






> “This is particularly critical now,” Goldberg’s filing stated of the funds, “where the receiver is desperately in need of liquidity to support the operations of the Jay Peak Resort and the Burke Mountain Hotel during these unimaginable times involving (i) a global pandemic; (ii) the closing of the American/Canadian border (through which many of the Jay Peak Resort and Burke Mountain Hotel patrons cross); and (iii) the off-season for both properties.”


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 26, 2021)

Hope they don’t get bought by Vail, it was nice having them on Indy Pass.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Hope they don’t get bought by Vail, it was nice having them on Indy Pass.


Alterra was eyeing Jay.  

Burke is not on the market. Yet.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 26, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Alterra was eyeing Jay.
> 
> Burke is not on the market. Yet.


Jay to alterra and Burke on the indy would be okay


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Jay to alterra and Burke on the indy would be okay


Honestly I am a bit surprised that the Receiver did not opt to add Burke to the Indy Pass.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 26, 2021)

how do the economics on indy pass work? anyone know?


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 26, 2021)

As sympathetic as I am to Goldberg, he made a deal.  It will be interesting to see how these funds are categorized.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It looks like Mr. Raymond is still in the EB-5 business.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentraymond/



It's absolutely astounding.

Recall that years ago before any of this scandal was publicly known, he was the guy I wanted answers from most, and he was the guy that was about 1/3 of what made my Spidey senses tingle because I knew he did not have the background or education to be doing what he was doing.  In essence, he was the perfect gimp.  And all of them involved are going to get off 100% free and in the clear.  If they were going to get nailed, it would have been someone in the Trump Administration to do so, the Biden Administration will let this thing slide, because #1 it makes government look terrible, and #2 there are very powerful Democrats here who are in need of protecting.


----------



## Zermatt (Mar 27, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> how do the economics on indy pass work? anyone know?


Some % to the operators of the Indy Pass.

Remainder split at end of season based on scans?  

That seems like the most logical way, but is counter to typical season pass discounts as resorts really want money early not late.... and why would an A list ski area like Jay Peak want to share equally with some dump ski area (literally on a landfill) in Iowa?


----------



## Killingtime (Mar 27, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> how do the economics on indy pass work? anyone know?


Check out the Storm Skiing Podcast with the founder of the Indy Pass. He talks about it. Last year each resort got about $48 per person per visit. I'm pissed I didn't get to use it for a Jay trip this year. Only used my Indy five times.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2021)

Killingtime said:


> Check out the Storm Skiing Podcast with the founder of the Indy Pass. He talks about it. Last year each resort got about $48 per person per visit. I'm pissed I didn't get to use it for a Jay trip this year. Only used my Indy five times.



thanks i will find that pod. but that makes no sense to me. i used the $200 pass 8 times (jay2, magic2, bolton2, cannon1, berkshire1) - so far. there wasn't $48x8 revenue generated from my pass.


----------



## 1dog (Mar 28, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's absolutely astounding.
> 
> Recall that years ago before any of this scandal was publicly known, he was the guy I wanted answers from most, and he was the guy that was about 1/3 of what made my Spidey senses tingle because I knew he did not have the background or education to be doing what he was doing.  In essence, he was the perfect gimp.  And all of them involved are going to get off 100% free and in the clear.  If they were going to get nailed, it would have been someone in the Trump Administration to do so, the Biden Administration will let this thing slide, because #1 it makes government look terrible, and #2 there are very powerful Democrats here who are in need of protecting.


It constantly astounds me how much faith and trust people place in government - especially at higher levels - to solve problems, or worse put capital to work properly 'investing' and 'caring for the children'. 

Barr was a disappointment in the end. Said the right things, rarely executed. How much money did the public lose? How much is the litigation going to cost? Place that  against things that state government should be doing but isn't, and you get a decent picture of waste.


----------



## urungus (Mar 28, 2021)

Slightly off topic, but what does the green “check mark with a P” mean on the Jay Peak trail report (eg Upper Exhibition, Northwest Passage)


----------



## cdskier (Mar 28, 2021)

urungus said:


> Slightly off topic, but what does the green “check mark with a P” mean on the Jay Peak trail report (eg Upper Exhibition, Northwest Passage)
> 
> View attachment 51204


Partially open...


----------



## urungus (Mar 28, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Partially open...



Thanks


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 4, 2021)

More legal wrangling.  The State comes out looking very bad in this article.  They seem to be desperate to cover this up.









						Federal judge, prosecutor put new roadblock in investor's effort to get visa documents
					

Attorney Russell Barr’s attempt to intervene on behalf of alleged defrauded investors in the criminal case against Jay Peak and AnC Bio Vermont developers is shot down.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 5, 2021)

So the State failed to protect the investors and to be consistent the State decided not to protect the investors again?


----------



## Tonyr (Apr 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks i will find that pod. but that makes no sense to me. i used the $200 pass 8 times (jay2, magic2, bolton2, cannon1, berkshire1) - so far. there wasn't $48x8 revenue generated from my pass.


The real money is made by staying at the resort hotel and eating food at the resort owned property which is what the Indy pass operators are hoping you do. I didn't spend any money at Magic while I was there so that was a bust but I did stay and eat at Greek Peak's on mountain property when we skied there.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 5, 2021)

poor suckers aint making a nickle on my ass. i don't think i spent a penny at an indy pass mountain this year. i don't think i spent a penny at any mountain this year. backpacks full of beer, weed, and food, and off-site cheap motels are the life i live. i guess they make up for the me's with the oodles of families who love cheeseburgers, rental equipment, and slopeside lodging.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 5, 2021)

I hear ya.  I only "Pay" for stuff when I'm working and it's 50% off, then the prices seem a lil more reasonable.

 1 Large Thermos of boiling water with some  Oatmeal, Hot Choc., Ramen, Tea.  What else does one need ?


----------



## Edd (Apr 5, 2021)

I miss the ski bars but I’ve grown an affinity for parking lot breaks that I didn’t have pre-COVID. I’ll do a hybrid version next year probably.


----------



## 2Planker (Apr 5, 2021)

Wildcat definitely got more tolerant of the parking lot cook outs and casual beers at lunch & Apes Ski.
  As long as you were "in control" and cleaned up after, No worries


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thanks i will find that pod. but that makes no sense to me. i used the $200 pass 8 times (jay2, magic2, bolton2, cannon1, berkshire1) - so far. there wasn't $48x8 revenue generated from my pass.



Right!  your average is $25 and they paid $48 to each?  It must run on the insurance company concept.  Get money from many but hope that most do not use it much,  Considering that the average number of days people ski/snowboard per season is like 5-6 times, their model is more in line with that than people on this forum or any ski forum.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 6, 2021)

Edd said:


> I miss the ski bars but I’ve grown an affinity for parking lot breaks that I didn’t have pre-COVID. I’ll do a hybrid version next year probably.



We have always done the hybrid thing.  A beer first thing in the morning while booting up at the car, a beer or two at the lodge in the middle of the day or maybe one at the car if we tail gate it and a last one taking gear off at the car and chillin!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

The feds have given the Vermont state EB-5 center permission to stay open in order to wind down existing projects.









						US immigration services reinstate Vermont EB-5 Regional Center
					

The reversal of the federal agency's decision to shutter the state-run program in the wake of the Jay Peak scandal is good news for defrauded investors.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## kingslug (Apr 23, 2021)

I do like Rumbles at SB though..massive food..but then you need a nap.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 20, 2021)

The first prison sentence has arrived:








						William Kelly, key adviser to Quiros in EB-5 fraud case, reaches plea deal for 3-year prison term
					

Under conditions of the agreement filed Thursday afternoon in U.S. District Court in Burlington, Kelly has agreed to plead guilty to two of the charges against him and to cooperate



					vtdigger.org


----------



## JoeB-Z (May 23, 2021)

It looks like Quiros will get the full 8 years under his plea deal. Not much to evoke sympathy from the judge.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 23, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> It looks like Quiros will get the full 8 years under his plea deal. Not much to evoke sympathy from the judge.


I'd hope for more.  He has no remorse for what he did.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 23, 2021)

It’s odd that Stenger is the lone holdout at this point.  Something tells me that he is going to plead guilty now that he’s alone,


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 23, 2021)

Who from State of Vermont's government's going to jail?


----------



## thetrailboss (May 24, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Who from State of Vermont's government's going to jail?


My money says NOBODY.  A single-party state right now and the AG is doing his best to shield his friends.  One is in trouble when their options are admitting you were in on the crime or saying that you were so dumb that you were duped.  Of course Moulton-Powden and Shumlin are singing the duped tune.  You have to be really dumb to not at last ask, "what is going on here?"  And yet both of them landed on their feet. 

Anyone who followed this knows that, (1) the Governor and State officials EXPLICITLY said that they were "auditing" these projects when they were not, and (2) when red flags were raised these same folks defended Quiros and company.  For all the talk I've heard over the years about how accountable Vermont State Government is and how transparent they are, this really burned whatever faith I had in them.  Honestly only BGG and The Original Trailboss saw this one coming all along.  I thought both of them were too cynical but they were right.  In the words of Fox Mulder, "I wanted to believe".  Those who were charged with preventing this thing from happening were all paid to look the other way.

And, in a weird coincidence, Burlington failed to learn the lesson as they put their trust in another "Florida Developer" to build a shiny new downtown development and let him demolish the former Burlington Square Mall leaving a giant hole in downtown that has yet to be filled.  So both Newport AND Burlington now have something in common!


----------



## VTKilarney (May 24, 2021)

Uh...  I also saw this coming.  I took a lot of heat from others on this forum.  It didn’t take a rocket scientist to see the obvious, however.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 24, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Uh...  I also saw this coming.  I took a lot of heat from others on this forum.  It didn’t take a rocket scientist to see the obvious, however.



It was a few years before you joined that this was all going down here.   The fact Jay Peak never sued the small potatoes EB-5 guy was a giant red flag to me.






						Big Burke announcement
					

BenedictGomez, why would it matter if they are so rich they just don't care? In that case, they are waving money at Jay Peak and that money is creating jobs, regardless of how you count them or what level jobs they are.   That was my point, that if you're so rich you likely look at it as, here's...




					forums.alpinezone.com
				




And I knew from my prior experience with Biotech that that northeast kingdom project was fishier than porgy.






						Big Burke announcement
					

BenedictGomez, why would it matter if they are so rich they just don't care? In that case, they are waving money at Jay Peak and that money is creating jobs, regardless of how you count them or what level jobs they are.   That was my point, that if you're so rich you likely look at it as, here's...




					forums.alpinezone.com
				




Later, once they announced the biotech was going to be for artificial organ creation I was 99% sure it was total BS.  It's like what someone who knew nothing about medicine would pick out of a hat because it sounds incredible. lol   Later, more financial peculiarities emerged which State of Vermont has no problem with, but were foxes in the henhouse concerning to me.  Including the fact that the people in charge clearly (from LinkedIn) didnt have the background to understand complex accounting, which seemed bizarrely scandaliciously convenient to me.  Still does.  It seems I will never get my wish, and nobody's ever going to interview Brent Raymond.  LOL


----------



## VTKilarney (May 25, 2021)

I've never told the story before, but at one point, when I was very critical of the operation, I was contacted by a very heavy hitter.  This person had a personal meeting with me to try to explain that everything was on the up and up.  This was shortly before everything fell apart.  I won't say who it was, but let's just say that it is someone who is facing criminal charges.  It was a cordial meeting.  I pretty much just listened to what they had to say.  Nobody was argumentative.  To be honest, they came across as a very nice person, although not necessarily a convincing one.


----------



## thebigo (May 25, 2021)

I have not been following this. Do we have any idea when burke and jay are going to be sold?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 25, 2021)

They should make Quiros stand at the top of the Flyer and apologize to everyone who gets off the chair every winter from December to March for his entire sentence.


----------



## mister moose (May 25, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s odd that Stenger is the lone holdout at this point.  Something tells me that he is going to plead guilty now that he’s alone,



Or not.  The reason Stenger hasn't accepted a plea deal is because the sentence being offered is more than Stenger thinks he'll get in court.  (If some of the charges are an over reach, then there is also the issue of pleading to a crime you didn't commit, but this is really a subset of any plea negotiation.)  Guilty or innocent, it all comes down to that.


----------



## fbrissette (May 25, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I have not been following this. Do we have any idea when burke and jay are going to be sold?


As far as I know, Burke has not been put for sale yet.  They are still trying to pimp up the financials.  Jay Peak has been for sale for more than two years.  Oviously, COVID screwed up the schedule and I would think that the current conditions are not conducive to a sale that would be favourable for the General Receiver, whose job is to get the best possible deal to refund the EB5 investors.

We have now started a 6th year with Jay Peak under receivership, which is probably not ideal.  To be fair however, from my perspective, Jay Peak has been really well managed during this period,  

I am rooting for Alterra Corp.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 25, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I have not been following this. Do we have any idea when burke and jay are going to be sold?


Jay is on the market.  Bids were submitted.  The Receiver was disappointed.  

Burke is not on the market and will not be until the job quotas are met for the investors.  That is going to take a while.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 25, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> We have now started a 6th year with Jay Peak under receivership, which is probably not ideal.  To be fair however, from my perspective, Jay Peak has been really well managed during this period,


Surprisingly, I can say the same about Burke.  It's pretty sad actually.  


fbrissette said:


> I am rooting for Alterra Corp.


Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 25, 2021)

mister moose said:


> Or not.  The reason Stenger hasn't accepted a plea deal is because the sentence being offered is more than Stenger thinks he'll get in court.  (If some of the charges are an over reach, then there is also the issue of pleading to a crime you didn't commit, but this is really a subset of any plea negotiation.)  Guilty or innocent, it all comes down to that.



Except that federal sentencing guidelines really hammer you if you take your case to trial rather than admit guilt.  It's a very risky game that Stenger is playing.  My guess is that he pleads guilty.  It's possible that he can't accept that he is going to see the inside of a jail cell.




thetrailboss said:


> Jay is on the market.  Bids were submitted.  The Receiver was disappointed.



I thought that some offers were withdraw due to Covid.  I could be wrong, though.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 25, 2021)

If Stenger was cooperating with the Feds,  its possible they are waiting for him to plead until everyone else has been sentenced.  

This is what's happening for the guy who was the head of the college admission scandal.  He is free right now since he basically turned on everyone that has been charged.  He won't be sentenced until all of the other people have either plead guilty or have been convicted in trail.  that is also a RICO case which I don't believe the EB-5 thing is being handled under that process.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 25, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> If Stenger was cooperating with the Feds, its possible they are waiting for him to plead until everyone else has been sentenced.



That's a very good point.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 26, 2021)

It gets even worse for the state regulators.









						Documents: State knew about EB-5 scheme when it greenlighted Burke and AnC Bio
					

Despite evidence that the Jay Peak developers had misused money from EB-5 investors, Gov. Peter Shumlin pressured officials in March 2015 to reinstate the suspended Burke Mountain and AnC Bio Vermont projects, allowing the developers to defraud more investors, records show.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## thetrailboss (May 26, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It gets even worse for the state regulators.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So here's a good summary:



> *In the summer of 2014,* ACCD hired outside counsel to investigate financial improprieties at the Northeast Kingdom ski area. T*he report to the agency from the law firm Lord Locke has never been made publicly available.
> 
> By November 2014, the secretary of the commerce agency was made aware that Quiros had leveraged margin loans* against money from investors that was supposed to have been held in escrow. A month later, John Kessler, general counsel for the commerce agency, was subpoenaed by federal regulators.



And.....



> *In early 2015, former Department of Financial Regulation Commissioner Susan Donegan identified violations of securities fraud, according to a court filing from investors*. Then-Deputy Commissioner Mike Pieciak* subpoenaed bank records showing that Quiros had illegally purchased the resort in 2008* using investor money that was supposed to be used for construction of the Tram Haus Lodge. Documents also showed Quiros later took out tens of millions of dollars in margin loans against EB-5 investor funds for seven other projects in the Northeast Kingdom.



But....



> Despite an ongoing Securities and Exchange Commission investigation and material findings from two state agencies, *Shumlin in March 2015 asked state officials at the financial regulation department, the commerce agency and the Vermont Attorney General’s Office to lift a hold on two of the last remaining projects — Burke Mountain and AnC Bio Vermont, a proposed biomedical research facility.
> 
> Shumlin, who had befriended Quiros and received campaign gifts from the Miami businessman, *wanted to allow the Jay Peak developers to promote the projects overseas to investors and to begin construction on the Burke ski area hotel.



That about sums it up.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2021)

It's obvious State of Vermont is knee-deep in this crime, which is why we'll eventually find out all the paper records have mysteriously vanished, the emails deleted, and the relevant hard drive(s) cannot be found.

Bank on it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2021)

What does Stenger gain from employing the, "Burn this mother to the ground" legal defense?   

Dont get me wrong, I'm thrilled to hear he's doing it, but isnt that risky?


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2021)

_"Vermont's EB-5 program is the safest one in all of America, because it's the only one that is government regulated"_

I was just reminiscing about the above from circa 10 years ago.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's obvious State of Vermont is knee-deep in this crime, which is why we'll eventually find out all the paper records have mysteriously vanished, the emails deleted, and the relevant hard drive(s) cannot be found.
> 
> Bank on it.


I'm pretty sure we already saw that with one official's Emails that the State "could not locate."


----------



## thetrailboss (May 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> _"Vermont's EB-5 program is the safest one in all of America, because it's the only one that is government regulated"_
> 
> I was just reminiscing about the above from circa 10 years ago.


-P. Shumlin


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2021)

Jay Peak ski area receiver reaches $32.5M settlement with Quiros’ law firm
					

Vermont’s Financial Regulation commissioner says the settlement was reached with Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP for its role in providing legal advice to former Jay Peak owner Ariel Quiros and the projects through the EB-5 visa program.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## JoeB-Z (Jun 5, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Jay Peak ski area receiver reaches $32.5M settlement with Quiros’ law firm
> 
> 
> Vermont’s Financial Regulation commissioner says the settlement was reached with Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp LLP for its role in providing legal advice to former Jay Peak owner Ariel Quiros and the projects through the EB-5 visa program.
> ...


This will be interesting. Can this law firm pay? Most law firms are cash flow businesses. They don't keep reserves. They can go belly up in months. Any associates quit and the principals start to fight among themselves.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> This will be interesting. Can this law firm pay? Most law firms are cash flow businesses. They don't keep reserves. They can go belly up in months. Any associates quit and the principals start to fight among themselves.



The correct question is how much insurance did they carry?  That’s who is going to pay.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> This will be interesting. Can this law firm pay? Most law firms are cash flow businesses. They don't keep reserves. They can go belly up in months. Any associates quit and the principals start to fight among themselves.


As said, it very likely is malpractice insurance that is footing the bill.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Jun 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> As said, it very likely is malpractice insurance that is footing the bill.


The agreement goes into that but how much is left of the insurance is unknown. Also, there are issues of abetting fraud and theft on the part of MSK. Malpractice insurance does not pay for that and insurance companies can play that card. I think if you read between the lines this settlement goes close to the insurance max and everyone wants to walk away.

"The policy is a “wasting” policy in the amount of Forty Million Dollars ($40,000,000.00), a significant portion of which has been used in connection with the defense of the Receiver Action, the Putative Class Action, other conduct related to the EB-5 Actions, and settlement negotiations with the Receiver and the Putative Class Plaintiffs."


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> The agreement goes into that but how much is left of the insurance is unknown. Also, there are issues of abetting fraud and theft on the part of MSK. Malpractice insurance does not pay for that and insurance companies can play that card. I think if you read between the lines this settlement goes close to the insurance max and everyone wants to walk away.
> 
> "The policy is a “wasting” policy in the amount of Forty Million Dollars ($40,000,000.00), a significant portion of which has been used in connection with the defense of the Receiver Action, the Putative Class Action, other conduct related to the EB-5 Actions, and settlement negotiations with the Receiver and the Putative Class Plaintiffs."


So as to the amount going to the Receiver/entities, I am not sure where you are getting your information, but VT Digger has outlined that yes the settlement is for $32.5 million.  https://vtdigger.org/2021/06/06/jay...s-32-5m-settlement-with-quiros-ex-legal-team/

Now, policy limits indeed could be $40 mill with the $7.5 mill paying defense costs.  That would make sense. 

As to covered losses, you are correct that fraud and theft are not normally covered "occurrences."  That said, in a lot of cases the carrier will settle in order to cut the costs and uncertainty of litigation, even if some of the claims involve alleged fraud and theft. 

If I had to guess, I would say that there was a negotiation in which the gap between the carrier and the Receiver was pretty far and the carrier finally said, "we have $32.5 million left.  Take it or leave it."


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 15, 2021)

A new article discussing alleged co-conspirators in the Jay Peak EB-5 fraud:








						Court filing: Shumlin aide ‘could qualify’ as co-conspirator in Jay Peak fraud case
					

A lawyer for Alex MacLean, who served as former Gov. Peter Shumlin’s deputy chief of staff, took strong exception to the claim included in a filing by attorneys for indicted



					vtdigger.org
				




I notice that Alexandra MacLean does not mention working for Jay Peak in her LinkedIn profile.


			https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-maclean-001a49162/


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> A new article discussing alleged co-conspirators in the Jay Peak EB-5 fraud:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like it was a Pretrial Disclosure that labeled these individuals as "Co-Conspirators" in order to allow for the admission of their out-of-court statements under the Rules of Evidence.  (VTD attaches Stenger's Motion in Limine to bar these statements).  The article certainly makes it worse than it seems.  If the Feds were to bring charges they would have already.  

That said, one would not want the label of co-conspirator in this matter.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 17, 2021)

> *George Gulisano, former Jay Peak chief financial officer*, who worked for Quiros from 2010 to 2016. In a deposition with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, *Gulisano claimed to have audited the eight EB-5 projects* run by Quiros and Stenger.



This I find interesting.

 Whereas I always thought it was beyond unusual that the guy running State of Vermont's EB-5 center had absolutely no education, work experience, or capacity that could prepare him to (really) understand finance or conduct an audit, a quick review of Gulisano's LinkedIn shows he absolutely 100% does.  IMO there is simply no way a guy with his background & work history wouldn't have known something was very amiss at Jay Peak if he was doing the audits.

So what's going on?  I'd never heard of this guy's involvement in terms of blessing all these audits before today.  Could he be involved, but not being charged because he told the SEC where the bodies are?  As an FYI, he left Vermont for South Florida, which I find interesting given that's where Quiros is from.  I wonder if they knew each other prior to the Jay Peak crime.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2021)

Looks like MSSI has settled its claims--for $800,000.  









						Canadian company pays $800K to settle claims of fraudulent sale of Jay Peak
					

The agreement between the resort’s court-appointed receiver and its former owner resolves a lawsuit related to the purchase of the ski area by Ariel Quiros in 2008, allegedly with investor funds that were not supposed to be touched.



					vtdigger.org
				




The allegation was that MSSI knew or "should have known" that Q was going to raid the EB-5 fund to pay for the resort when he purchased Jay in 2008.  And in fact he did use $18 million of the escrow funds to buy the resort.  In essence, it is when the whole fraud began.


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 21, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like MSSI has settled its claims--for $800,000.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Drops in a bucket, with the Receivership only getting 100k, and no admission of guilt.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 21, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Drops in a bucket, with the Receivership only getting 100k, and no admission of guilt.


Yep.  After everyone else gets their cut......


----------



## skiur (Aug 11, 2021)

Stenger to take plea deal in ‘Kingdom Con’ case
					

One of the main players in the Kingdom Con fraud case has made a plea deal with prosecutors.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2021)

ROFL @ State of Vermont blaming Quiros & Stenger for "deceiving" them.  

They're going with the, "Vermont is completely incompetent" defense.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 11, 2021)

ANother article here:








						Jay Peak’s Stenger reaches plea deal in EB-5 fraud case, admits to false statement
					

Bill Stenger, former CEO and president of the Jay Peak ski resort in northern Vermont, is expected to enter his guilty plea Friday. Prosecutors can ask for a prison sentence



					vtdigger.org
				




Any guesses on how much jail time Stenger will actually get?  It seems like he made a mistake by letting Quiros cooperate first.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2021)

Watch and let us know your reaction to Bill's comments:









						Former Jay Peak president pleads guilty in ‘Kingdom Con’ case
					

Former Jay Peak President Bill Stenger on Friday pleaded guilty in federal court to lying to government officials in connection with the state’s largest-ever fraud case.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 13, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Watch and let us know your reaction to Bill's comments:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pick one:
1) He was either the world's worst executive; or
2) He knew that a fraud was being perpetuated.

I feel sorry that he got roped into this.  If, however, at some point he realized that there was fraudulent activity and he enabled it, it's awfully hard to feel sorry for him.  Good people can make bad mistakes.  If Stenger truly made a mistake, I wish that he would own up to it.  But he has a sentencing hearing ahead of him - so I can appreciate that his attorney has advised him to be cautious about what he says at this point in time.  It will be interesting to see what he actually says at the sentencing hearing.  The judge may not be impressed if he fails to admit to playing a role in the fraud.  If he plays the innocent victim he will be playing with fire - especially with the sentencing guideline factors.

I would not read too much into the charge that he plead to and the charges that were dismissed.  The feds do this sort of horse trading with charges all of the time.  It seems like they came up with a plea agreement that does not treat Stenger as the principal wrongdoer (at least as far as the spoils of the fraud are concerned), but will provide some degree of punishment.  The feds are less concerned with how the get to the finish line than they are with the actual result.

To be honest... I can see why Quiros did what he did.  This is not to say that it was right, but Quiros at least had the temptation and motive since he was the one who allegedly pocketed the proceeds from the fraud.  Stenger apparently did not wind up with a windfall.  Which makes Stenger's role in this seem that much more inexplicable.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 14, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> *Stenger apparently did not wind up with a windfall.  Which makes Stenger's role in this seem that much more inexplicable.*



This many year saga will finally end in October/November when we learn much more about the secrets we do not currently know.  His role has always been a mystery, for him to truly be innocent you'd have to believe that Stenger is a total moron.  Seems a far cry from the guy people previously called a brilliant ski executive.  And just WHAT did he lie to government officials about?  That's still a mystery.  Could he have been weak-kneed & Quiros simply said "do this or you're fired", and Stenger went along with it to keep his high-paid CEO job?  It could be that simple, but my guess is another bombshell will drop.  We'll finally know about 3 months from now.

What we wont know, and likely will never know, is State of Vermont & Vermont government's complicity in this fraud.  Much of the evidence has likely already been destroyed.  LOL @ how Senator Leahy went  from Mr. EB-5 saving Vermont's economy, to, what is that EB-5 thing about, I've heard the term but dont know what it is. It's a good thing when you control which direction the sharpened end of the bayonets get pointed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 14, 2021)

The Caledonian Record’s article has some details about what Stenger lied about:
Assistant U.S. Attorney Nicole P. Cate said Stenger specifically submitted a letter representing that a third party had analyzed the sales projections for the Jay Peak Biomedical Research Park (also called the AnC Vermont project) when the third party had never looked at them. Stenger also submitted a timeline about product commercialization that omitted uncertainty about the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval process, Cate said.


----------



## kbroderick (Aug 14, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The Caledonian Record’s article has some details about what Stenger lied about:
> Assistant U.S. Attorney Nicole P. Cate said Stenger specifically submitted a letter representing that a third party had analyzed the sales projections for the Jay Peak Biomedical Research Park (also called the AnC Vermont project) when the third party had never looked at them. Stenger also submitted a timeline about product commercialization that omitted uncertainty about the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval process, Cate said.


That's what he *admitted to lying about*. I strongly suspect that differs from the totality of what he lied about, as I'm in the "he doesn't seem to be a moron, so he must've known something was afoot" camp. I wouldn't be shocked if he got really excited about and focused on the project upside and by the time it was clear what Quiros was up to, he was already in the middle of a cluster and just trying to keep things moving forward in some fashion.

But then again, I'm mostly just here to watch for more details and eat popcorn, so take that with a shaker of salt.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 14, 2021)

There is what Stenger lied about, both admitted and total.  There also has to be what Quiros lied to Stenger about, and what Stenger suspected but chose not to see.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 15, 2021)

My main interest in this in the final innings lies with State of Vermont's guilt, but intentionally, nobody is looking into that. 

I feel like the guy in the famous Twilight Zone episode who's the only one who sees the gremlin tearing apart the port side airplane wing. Vermont was 100% complicit in this fraud, no ifs and or buts, and everyone involved is just pretending that isnt the case.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 15, 2021)

While not as vocal as you BG I too think the state was in on it.  They could not have known on at least some level that this scam was going down.

I also agree with kbroderick as I think Stenger the ever positive guy didn't realize until it was too late that he was a major player in a scam that was going to come crashing down at some point.  I could be totally wrong but hope I'm not.  My guess is Bill was just hoping at some point this thing would get off the ground in some capacity to save face and it didn't. 

Waiting for sentencing where hopefully more details emerge. 

In the meantime Jay Peak, which was Bill's true love, is left with a lot of nice amenities yet no one wants to buy it.  Which basically proves the whole scam as I'm guessing the traffic doesn't support all of those shiny toys they have


----------



## JimG. (Aug 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I feel like the guy in the famous Twilight Zone episode who's the only one who sees the gremlin tearing apart the port side airplane wing.


One of William Shatner's most memorable overacting roles.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 16, 2021)

JimG. said:


> One of William Shatner's most memorable overacting roles.



You know, I've seen that episode at least twice, but he was so young that I had no idea it was him!


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 16, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You know, I've seen that episode at least twice, but he was so young that I had no idea it was him!



I never made that connection either!  LOL


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 16, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> While not as vocal as you BG I too think the state was in on it.  They could not have known on at least some level that this scam was going down.
> 
> I also agree with kbroderick as I think Stenger the ever positive guy didn't realize until it was too late that he was a major player in a scam that was going to come crashing down at some point.  I could be totally wrong but hope I'm not.  My guess is Bill was just hoping at some point this thing would get off the ground in some capacity to save face and it didn't.
> 
> ...



Agreed that the damage to Vermont's credibility is pretty deep.  If anything it will hurt the very people that the whole EB-5 program was meant to help.  But those people have very little political capital so nothing changes.  

That all said, a lukewarm Democratic Governor almost lost re-election and then opted to retire rather than run again, so that shows some of the impact.  But the career state officials who were involved in this mess (namely Moulton-Powden and Brent Raymond to name two) simply got on the merry-go-round and found new jobs--Moulton-Powden ending up as President of VTC (a job that she is not at all qualified to handle).  And somehow Shumlin got a gig teaching at Harvard.  There needs to be a reckoning here.  

As to Leahy, I am pretty sure that he and Stenger are actually related by marriage (and both are related to the late Tony Pomerleau by marriage IIRC).  So that is interesting.  As to Bill, we all hate to see what happened to him, but again he cannot have been "that sophisticated" of a business person and not known or at least suspected what was going on.  If anything he may have been in denial until it was too late.  

You all should closely watch what is going on with the "CityPlace Burlington" project that is eerily similar to what happened with Newport.  





__





						BTV Mall Redevelopment Process | City of Burlington, Vermont
					






					www.burlingtonvt.gov
				




How?  A Florida Real Estate Developer pitched a huge real estate project for Downtown Burlington convinces City Hall to cut him and his buddies a bunch of breaks.  He purchases several buildings, demos them, then runs out of money and now BTV has a giant hole in the middle of it.  We've seen this movie before.    All I can say is stay tuned.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 16, 2021)

While shitty  at least some places in downtown Burlington have a better chance of being bought at Sheriffs sale and actually developed by someone at some point.  Newport, not so much...   Its a shame.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 16, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Agreed that the damage to Vermont's credibility is pretty deep.  If anything it will hurt the very people that the whole EB-5 program was meant to help.  But those people have very little political capital so nothing changes.
> 
> That all said, a lukewarm Democratic Governor almost lost re-election and then opted to retire rather than run again, so that shows some of the impact.  But the career state officials who were involved in this mess (namely Moulton-Powden and Brent Raymond to name two) simply got on the merry-go-round and found new jobs--Moulton-Powden ending up as President of VTC (a job that she is not at all qualified to handle).  And somehow Shumlin got a gig teaching at Harvard.  There needs to be a reckoning here.
> 
> ...


Looks like 50 % of the project has been bought out by 3 locals and they plan to start construction in September 2021. They've also decided against the office space and hotel, given the lack of need with changes from the pandemic and increased the number of housing unit and affordable housing units.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 16, 2021)

I also read about the Burlington project that the developer may loose out on the TIF the city offered to help pay back the cost to re-establish St Paul and Pine Streets.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 17, 2021)

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. 

No cash payouts, no windfall, I am just struggling to see how Stenger would go along with the scam without a kickback of some sort.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.  No cash payouts, no windfall,* I am just struggling to see how Stenger would go along with the scam without a kickback of some sort.*



This might be the next shoe to drop that he did have a financial incentive, because it is definitely a mystery. 

The only other motivation I can come up with is it may have been as simple as him keeping his cushy & prestigious CEO job, but if so, he's a gigantic fool.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 18, 2021)

Hindsight runs deep in this entire affair, BG.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2021)

Well, well.....









						Lawsuit alleges Shumlin administration perpetuated EB-5 fraud
					

State regulators and the Vermont Attorney General's Office hid the fraud from investors and the public for 13 months before the SEC shut down the Jay Peak projects, according to



					vtdigger.org


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Aug 25, 2021)

oops!


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, well.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those vtdigger articles are thorough but 3/4 of the way through ADD kicks in and I just can’t finish.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Those vtdigger articles are thorough but 3/4 of the way through ADD kicks in and I just can’t finish.




Sounds like a personal problem.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Lawsuit alleges Shumlin administration perpetuated EB-5 fraud
> 
> 
> State regulators and the Vermont Attorney General's Office hid the fraud from investors and the public for 13 months before the SEC shut down the Jay Peak projects, according to
> ...



As I predicted years ago, State of Vermont had to be in on it.  And as always, once again, I'd really like to see them fully investigate the EB-5 center's brass, which has never happened.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> As I predicted years ago, State of Vermont had to be in on it.  And as always, once again, I'd really like to see them fully investigate the EB-5 center's brass, which has never happened.



I love ya BG but I'm nearly certain "As I predicted years ago..." is gonna be on your tombstone.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I love ya BG but I'm nearly certain "As I predicted years ago..." is gonna be on your tombstone.



It should be, making predictions was literally my career for some years!


----------



## JoeB-Z (Sep 1, 2021)

Did anyone pick this up about receiver Goldberg? https://vtdigger.org/2021/07/13/jay...key-role-in-deadly-florida-building-collapse/
I have been impressed by Goldberg but there is still a lot to be done in VT.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Did anyone pick this up about receiver Goldberg? https://vtdigger.org/2021/07/13/jay...key-role-in-deadly-florida-building-collapse/
> I have been impressed by Goldberg but there is still a lot to be done in VT.


Yes.  He’s the preeminent expert in the field.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2021)

What the hades, is this guy like the legal version of The Wolf in Pulp Fiction?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> What the hades, is this guy like the legal version of The Wolf in Pulp Fiction?


----------



## Zand (Sep 10, 2021)

Court records point to state cover-up in EB-5 fraud at Burke Mountain Resort
					

The Shumlin administration misled investors and federal agencies in a push to finish the Burke hotel, according to a new filing in federal court.



					vtdigger.org
				




More on the Burke side of things, but sounds like Shummy might go down in this.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

The latest update on this situation that you will want to read.  But first, the "Mount Rushmore" of Burke's most hated men:







The article:  https://vtdigger.org/2021/09/09/cou...4uLPx4KaiCT9jUf7wlzDT21uuR_SOITPHkLMTZJSi4v0U


Some highlights from my POV:



> On New Year’s Day in 2015, Shumlin and Quiros met privately at the governor’s East Montpelier home, according to information from FBI records that has not previously been disclosed. Quiros later told investigators that he and Shumlin discussed “all of the problems at Jay Peak” that day, including cost overruns and state oversight. Shumlin also sought information about the apparent arrest in China of a Vermont EB-5 Regional Center employee, Quiros told the feds.



Disturbing that they had a "get-together".  I don't recall the facts about the arrest of an EB-5 employee.  IIRC it was something minor, right?



> Most of the records were included as exhibits to a motion filed in federal court Wednesday by defense attorneys for former Jay Peak President and CEO Bill Stenger. The FBI records recounting the interviews were filed under seal but quoted from in the motion.



Sealed documents.  That ain't good for the State. 



> According to the filing, Shumlin and state officials knew from an internal investigation in March 2015 — a year before federal regulators stepped in — that Quiros had stolen tens of millions of dollars from investors in six projects at Jay Peak, a ski area on the Canadian border. A few months later, state regulators had documented how Quiros used the money to buy a Porsche, a Miami restaurant and two luxury condos.
> 
> As VTDigger reported at the time, state officials, at the direction of the governor, reinstated the two final projects in an eight-phase development — a biomedical center in Newport and a hotel at Burke Mountain Resort, another ski area in the heart of the Northeast Kingdom.



Crucial Fact--Shumlin and company knew in March 2015 what was really going on.  Crucial Fact 2:  with that knowledge, they pushed to get the Hotel project done.  In some ways I can see this as a real Hobson's choice--blow the whistle and have a bunch of contractors unpaid and an incomplete hotel sitting there or get it done and pay your local constituents and then blow the whistle only to be criticized for doing this after the fact.  Looks like he went for the latter.  Now misleading people in the process is not at all justified.



> The documents show that state officials concealed the results of an internal probe of the Northeast Kingdom fraud in 2015. And, in their motion, Stenger’s lawyers make another bombshell claim: that state regulators and commerce officials made false statements to the public, investors, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, and the U.S Citizenship and Immigration Services.



Makes sense if the goal was to get the Hotel complete and pay off local contractors before pulling the plug. 



> The new motion filed by Stenger’s attorneys, David Williams and Brooks McArthur, includes 45 supporting records — mostly emails, in addition to the records from the FBI and other documents — showing that, as the lawyers put it, Shumlin and state officials “knowingly facilitated and participated” in defrauding investors in the Burke hotel.



Ahhh, I see.  Stenger is using this as his defense.  But this only shows that the "end game" may have been the fault of someone else.  It does not really help Stenger for the 2008-2015 time period when Q was constantly robbing the piggy bank.  That is a lot of time to try to convince someone that you were "too dumb" to see what was happening. 



> Williams and McArthur assert that the state Department of Financial Regulation approved investor offering documents for Burke that made no mention of the fraud — despite knowing it was taking place. Unsuspecting foreigners continued to invest in the hotel in exchange for green cards. State officials wrested control of the project from Quiros, took money from defrauded investors and made payments to the general contractor for the Burke project.



Wow, just wow. 



> In a statement responding to the motion, Assistant Attorney General David Groff said, “Let us be clear. We support the release of hundreds of thousands of pages of unredacted documents, which is the vast majority.”
> 
> “However, some of these documents should remain sealed because privileges apply to them, including the attorney-client privilege and the work product doctrine,” Groff said.



Yeah, release the documents that have no bearing on the culpability of the State.  But withhold those that incriminate Shumlin and company.  Makes complete sense.  



> Shumlin did not respond to a request for comment Wednesday. The U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Vermont is not taking a position on the release of records.



Yes, Shumlin forgot how to answer an Email or a call.  No surprise. 

I am surprised that the Feds are not opposing this release.  I imagine that certain-powers-to-be will exact serious political pressure on the U.S. Attorney to stop these records from being released.  After all, we now have a (D) administration in charge on the federal level and they don't want (D) team members to look bad.  Unless Shumlin was on the naughty list. 



> By the time Quiros showed up at Shumlin’s East Montpelier home, the governor had a political problem on his hands. Local contractors working on the Burke Mountain Resort project were owed thousands of dollars in 2014 and walked off the job before winter. Shumlin was getting calls from builders and state representatives.



Bingo!



> In August 2014 the music stopped. State officials administering the foreign investor visa program suspected the developers of fraud and shut off the EB-5 “spigot” for the Burke project and a proposed biomedical facility in Newport, according to Williams and McArthur.



Again, timing is crucial.  In August 2014 the State stopped the fundraising.  Only to let it resume almost a year later.  Not good.



> After the 2015 New Year’s Day meeting, Quiros apparently succeeded in regaining the governor’s ear. He and Kelly, his top adviser, complained to Shumlin in emails about VTDigger’s reporting on financial improprieties at Jay Peak. Shumlin offered to issue a joint press release alleging inaccuracies in the stories. The governor also expressed concern that Susan Donegan, then-commissioner of the Department of Financial Regulation, and Kelly were not getting along.



Yes, when your regulators suspect that someone is committing fraud you defend the fraudster.  Makes perfect sense.  :roll:  And what is this fifth grade?  "Daddy, Susie and Billy are not getting along!"



> Shumlin, Miller, Moulton and London met with Quiros and Stenger to talk about how to resolve the hold on the Burke and AnCBio projects on March 27, 2015. The goal of the meeting, as Miller put it in an interview with the FBI, was to “unstick things.”
> 
> Afterward, Quiros “ducked into a private room” with Shumlin, according to an FBI interview with Moulton that is cited by defense attorneys but was filed under seal. Quiros had brought a manila folder to the meeting, and Moulton “later learned that the file contained pictures Quiros wanted to show to the Governor.” The records do not describe the pictures.



Yes, meet with the fraudster and let him know that the gig is up.  Or was it? 

And were those dirty pictures?  



> Donegan met with Shumlin privately and disagreed with him about how to proceed. Afterward, the governor told securities regulators to lift the freeze on Burke and find a way to finish the hotel, documents show. A month later, Donegan tried to stop the projects by describing the securities violations at Jay Peak in a meeting with Miller and London. Donegan suggested that the state pursue receivership, asset seizure or a court injunction.



UNREAL!!!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

More thoughts since, in an AZ first, I wrote too much and have to break it down into two messages!  :lol:



> Donegan and Pieciak discovered the full extent of the scheme in the summer of 2015, Williams and Kelly wrote. The regulators produced a “spaghetti map” of the thousands of bank transactions Quiros used to cover up the fraud. They also drafted a lawsuit against the developers in the summer of 2015 with “an army of attorneys” from the state Attorney General’s Office. In a slideshow for top officials presented to former Attorney General Bill Sorrell and Shumlin in August and September, respectively, Pieciak said “the immigration status of [every Burke and AnC Bio] investor would likely be negated.”
> 
> The state regulators, who were “charged with insuring compliance with state and federal securities law,” chose not to disclose that information in offering documents provided to investors.
> 
> Ultimately, in response to pressure from the governor and requests from the Securities and Exchange Commission, Donegan and Pieciak continued investigating the fraud and at the same time collected an additional $43 million from 86 investors in the Burke hotel.



I don't even know where to start with this one....just unreal.  



> Included in the filing by Williams and McArthur are two affidavits authored by Pieciak. One denies there was any misuse of funds at Burke. The other lists amounts from other investor projects that were funneled into the hotel development. The affidavit that omitted the comingling of funds was submitted in the state’s lawsuit against Quiros and Stenger in April 2016 and was later used by the state in response to a request for information from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.



Yeah having two different signed affidavits does not look good at all.  Especially when one used the affidavit that had LESS information in it.  

I'd say that the State is hosed.  I hope they resolve this in order to get this behind them.  It just shows that Shumlin will go down as one of the worst governors in recent history (if not the worst) who opted to overlook the law in order to save his own political ass, burning the State's credibility for a very long time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

Zand said:


> Court records point to state cover-up in EB-5 fraud at Burke Mountain Resort
> 
> 
> The Shumlin administration misled investors and federal agencies in a push to finish the Burke hotel, according to a new filing in federal court.
> ...


I think that VTD buried the lead--Q had dirty incriminating pics of Shummy!  Can we say, blackmail?  

"Peter, I have these pictures of you with some of my Korean girls.  It would be a shame if these were to get out now wouldn't it?"


----------



## Zand (Sep 10, 2021)

Going back to the first pages of the thread is fun...


VTKilarney said:


> Gotta love this quote from here: http://www.eb5fullservice.com/blog/2232/
> _James Candido, the principal overseer of State of Vermont EB-5 projects, stated to me that he inspects Jay Peak’s financial records at least four times per year and that he has not seen any financial irregularities or problems in Jay Peak’s finances. _


Especially this link!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

Zand said:


> Going back to the first pages of the thread is fun...
> 
> Especially this link!


Yeah, that link takes me to some nonsense spam page.


----------



## Zand (Sep 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, that link takes me to some nonsense spam page.


I think it got taken down shortly after it was posted here. But the quotes taken from it are funny in hindsight.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

Zand said:


> I think it got taken down shortly after it was posted here. But the quotes taken from it are funny in hindsight.


Oh absolutely.  

I think that before these latest revelations, we were all thinking that the State's "fraud" was Shumlin in 2012 making statements in the promo video that Vermont was special in the fact that it audited the EB-5 projects when in fact it did not.  Now with these latest revelations it looks like the claims are far more specific and sinister.  They are claiming that the real fraud occurred in 2015 when Shumlin and the State ALLOWED fundraising to resume knowing that the whole thing was a fraud and that they did so in order to perpetuate the fraud in order to get the Hotel built.  That, in addition to Shumlin's 2012 statements, looks pretty bad.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2021)

vUrMoNts E-BeeFive ProGrAm is tEh MoHst SaFest BeeCuz iTs THe OnLy WoN GoverMeNt rUn!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2021)

As I stated many years ago, Brent Raymond had absolutely no financial background necessary for the accounting/audit/finance work required of that EB-5 program.  I dont believe this was a bug, I think it was a feature.

When was he appointed?  December 2011.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> *we now have a (D) administration in charge on the federal level and they don't want (D) team members to look bad.  *



I'm old enough to remember when Senator Patrick Leahy was Mr. EB-5, taking credit for even the slightest incremental EB-5 announcement.  Now he's like,_ "EB-5, what's that?  Sounds familiar, but I dont know what that is"._


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm old enough to remember when Senator Patrick Leahy was Mr. EB-5, taking credit for even the slightest incremental EB-5 announcement.  Now he's like,_ "EB-5, what's that?  Sounds familiar, but I dont know what that is"._


He was the one I was thinking of in terms of political pressure.  He seems to have disappeared from the scene on this matter.  I'd say Shummy is the fall guy.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Sep 10, 2021)

Numerous pictures of Grant and Franklin in that envelope?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Numerous pictures of Grant and Franklin in that envelope?



So long as we're speculating, some of the trips were in China, and prostitution is in-your-face everywhere out in the open in China.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Numerous pictures of Grant and Franklin in that envelope?


Let's put it this way.  Shumlin started out his term as Governor a married man to a wife of many years with two daughters in their late teens/early twenties.  When he left, he had ditched the family and married a woman almost have his age (31 years vs. 59 years).  What does that tell you?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> What does that tell you?



He couldnt find a 24 year old.


----------



## jimmck (Sep 12, 2021)

Zand said:


> I think it got taken down shortly after it was posted here. But the quotes taken from it are funny in hindsight.







__





						Blog
					






					web.archive.org
				




The internet never forgets!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2021)

jimmck said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, that Bill Stenger guy had NO idea what was going on......



> It was very clear during my stay at Jay Peak Resort that Bill Stenger is a very hands-on owner/operator. I spotted him before our first meeting darting into the kitchen of one of the Resort’s restaurants to solve a problem. While touring the facilities, he would address every worker by first name (he apparently interviews every new hire, from what a ski instructor told my wife), check operations, issue orders or suggestions, and even pause at one point to gather and throw out empty plastic cups that a bartender hadn’t yet cleared.  It’s plain from conversations with the Resort’s staff that morale is high and that Mr. Stenger is held in high esteem. Worker attrition is not a problem.



And Jay was the 5% that were approved by the State to proceed.  I can only imagine what the other 95% of those EB-5 projects were:



> James Candido, the principal overseer of State of Vermont EB-5 projects, stated to me that he inspects Jay Peak’s financial records at least four times per year and that he has not seen any financial irregularities or problems in Jay Peak’s finances. He noted that Jay Peak Resort was selected as the first Vermont EB-5 project because of Bill Stenger’s “30 years of demonstrated business acumen.” He emphasized that the State of Vermont is particularly careful in overseeing Jay Peak projects because it is hoping to leverage Jay Peak Resort’s success with development and job creation into promoting additional EB-5 projects in Vermont, several of which are in development or already online. Candido noted that the State turns down or discourages 95% of Vermont businessmen pitching projects to the Vermont Regional Center.



Also note that the "Exit Plan" was pretty vague and should have raised flags--the investors were to get, at this juncture, a share of the real estate project that they created.  Almost like a timeshare:



> I’ve always been concerned about Jay Peak’s exit strategy.  Loan-based EB-5 investments have a clear exit point when the loan is repaid by the borrower, whereupon the general partner returns investment principal to the immigrant investors. Equity-based investments don’t have the same fixed point for exit, but in virtually every project the general partner enters the project with the intention to sell the project equity in its entirety once the property becomes profitable and a market develops for resale. Jay Peak is different. The plan is for investors to sell fractional shares in the part of the resort that was developed with their money. Bill Stenger predicts that Phase I investors will be able to sell shares and secure return of their investment principal starting in September of this year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 12, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> He couldnt find a 24 year old.


:lol:


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 13, 2021)

Speaking of failed plans, before Q there was Bobby Ginn and Lubert Alder at Burke.  When he took over Burke he also looked west to Blue Sky Basin and a massive development in a small Colorado mining town named Minturn.  He was going to clean up that Superfund site and also made a lot of big promises to the town.  So, what ever happened to Minturn?  Well, read on:









						Minturn wrestles with the decade-old promises of a big-dream developer
					

Minturn weights changes to 2008 plan by Florida developer Bobby Ginn, who promised town $162 million in perks for annexation of 4,300 acres




					coloradosun.com


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 21, 2021)

THe prosecutors say that Stenger was not the innocent pawn that he claims to be:








						Prosecutors dispute Stenger was ‘duped,’ call it a tale of ‘greed, glory and desperation’
					

Assistant U.S. Attorneys Nicole Cate and Paul Van de Graaf alleged in a court filing Tuesday that the former Jay Peak president and CEO was “not just a bystander to the fraud that occurred, but an integral part of the sweeping fraud scheme.”



					vtdigger.org


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> THe prosecutors say that Stenger was not the innocent pawn that he claims to be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"He could not fail,” the prosecutors wrote. “He became desperate to keep the projects going forward. Even when he knew he was in the wrong, he furthered the fraud, to keep his place on the high pedestal of public perception.”

[....]

“Throughout the life of the scheme, Stenger held himself out as a knowledgeable businessman in control of the EB-5 projects. He traded on the trust that people had in him,” the prosecutors wrote. “Even if he did not have answers to questions about the money, or about the AnC project, he had the power to demand them. When Stenger failed to seek or provide answers, it was because he knew the answer.”


----------



## drjeff (Sep 22, 2021)

Anyone get the feeling, that since there are seemingly obviously numerous VT government officials involved with the oversight of the fraud in this one, that the delay tactic, so that it ends up so off the radar of the average person and the media scrutiny, is going to continue to be used so that by the time some likely behind the scenes negotiated deal for just a proverbial slap on the wrist, is announced, that it will all go away without any appropriate punishment for the players as well as the regulatory folks?


----------



## trackbiker (Sep 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Anyone get the feeling, that since there are seemingly obviously numerous VT government officials involved with the oversight of the fraud in this one, that the delay tactic, so that it ends up so off the radar of the average person and the media scrutiny, is going to continue to be used so that by the time some likely behind the scenes negotiated deal for just a proverbial slap on the wrist, is announced, that it will all go away without any appropriate punishment for the players as well as the regulatory folks?


Isn't that how it always works? The Sacklers knowingly sent large quantities of doses of opioids to small pharmacies that they knew were way too many for those pharmacies to legitimately dispense. The phamacist go to jail but the Sacklers pay a fine spread out over years, which is about equal to the interest on their billions over that same time and walk away one of the richest families in the country. There are many other examples of similar situations. Money talks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Anyone get the feeling, that since there are seemingly obviously numerous VT government officials involved with the oversight of the fraud in this one, that the delay tactic, so that it ends up so off the radar of the average person and the media scrutiny, is going to continue to be used so that by the time some likely behind the scenes negotiated deal for just a proverbial slap on the wrist, is announced, that it will all go away without any appropriate punishment for the players as well as the regulatory folks?


You think? 

Or perhaps waiting until one of those officials announces his intention to not seek re-election?


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 28, 2021)

It's looking even worse for the State of Vermont:








						‘Aided and abetted’: Newly unsealed records show state feared its own culpability in EB-5 fraud
					

Roughly 600 pages of records unsealed in federal court last week provide new details about the lengths to which Vermont state officials went in concealing the Northeast Kingdom fraud from



					vtdigger.org


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 28, 2021)

Never thought it would be this bad.
Strange defense strategy -   the defense attorneys are basically saying:  'oy yeah, our clients were commiting fraud, but the state knew about it and did nothing'.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It's looking even worse for the State of Vermont:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So lets get the betting pool started, does Gov Scott go back against his recent, and seemingly very reasonable, science based, COVID restriction loosenings back into full panic mode? Or start talking up the non citizens voting in municipal elections in Montpelier and Winooski as a distraction/deflection from what is now seemingly more and more like it was state complicit supervision of the the Jay/Burke EB-5 corruption scandal?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It's looking even worse for the State of Vermont:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the Court unsealed the records?  Good.  I will be interested to read VTD's coverage on them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> So lets get the betting pool started, does Gov Scott go back against his recent, and seemingly very reasonable, science based, COVID restriction loosenings back into full panic mode? Or start talking up the non citizens voting in municipal elections in Montpelier and Winooski as a distraction/deflection from what is now seemingly more and more like it was state complicit supervision of the the Jay/Burke EB-5 corruption scandal?


Yeah but that didn't happen on his watch.  It was all Shummy.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah but that didn't happen on his watch.  It was all Shummy.



True, but I am guessing that many of the government oversite folks implicated are long time employees of the state and as such, reagrdless of the change at the top, "must be protected for the good of society....." or some other similar politcal speak to attempt to justify their actions.....   

Or even if they aren't "protected" by the current folks running Montpelier, they will probably get sometype of paid leave that will cover the time they need to get a full pension, or something akin to that.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> True, but I am guessing that many of the government oversite folks implicated are long time employees of the state and as such, reagrdless of the change at the top, "must be protected for the good of society....." or some other similar politcal speak to attempt to justify their actions.....
> 
> Or even if they aren't "protected" by the current folks running Montpelier, they will probably get sometype of paid leave that will cover the time they need to get a full pension, or something akin to that.....


Those most culpable--Shumlin, Raymond, Moulton, Sorrell--have either retired or moved on to the next cushy state gig.  Completely unacceptable.  

And this proves one of BG's points:



> In the newly disclosed emails, Kessler discussed the risk to the state of allowing the AnC Bio project to move forward as the SEC weighed the possibility of taking action to shut it down.
> 
> “In this context,” Kessler wrote to Humbert, London, Moulton and Raymond, “it seems prudent to me to consider the risk of the SEC finding that the Vermont Regional Center did not take reasonably available steps to protect investors through omission, or worse, that the state by act or omission ‘aided and abetted’ fraud as the SEC found in other enforcement actions.”
> 
> *Humbert, in a Feb. 11, 2015, reply to Kessler, wrote that the attorney general’s office did not have any lawyers with expertise in the EB-5 program, securities law or SEC investigations, “so we are unable to provide you with legal advice in these highly specialized areas.”*



Complete amateur hour.  

No serious investor or corporation will want to do business in Vermont for some time.  All the talk about regulations mean nothing if fraudsters are allowed and encouraged to do business in Vermont.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Those most culpable--Shumlin, Raymond, Moulton, Sorrell--have either retired or moved on to the next cushy state gig.  Completely unacceptable.
> 
> And this proves one of BG's points:
> 
> ...



The part that will most annoy me, and should annoy everyone if it happens, is that purely on preferred ideology of those in charge at the time, there inevitably will be some in the general public being OK if those implicated in this fraud just get a slap on the wrist.

This era where we're in where some are inclined to simply look the otherway when wrong doing happens just simply because those who did the wrong doing are on their same "ideologocal team" is just not OK. Wrong is wrong, and ideology shouldn't play into the potential repercussions


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 28, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The part that will most annoy me, and should annoy everyone if it happens, is that purely on preferred ideology of those in charge at the time, there inevitably will be some in the general public being OK if those implicated in this fraud just get a slap on the wrist.
> 
> This era where we're in where some are inclined to simply look the otherway when wrong doing happens just simply because those who did the wrong doing are on their same "ideologocal team" is just not OK. Wrong is wrong, and ideology shouldn't play into the potential repercussions


Oh don't get me started.  Vermont in the last 20 years has gone the way of the rest of the country in which ideology is all that matters for most people.  It's gotten to the point where Vermont has one party in power with NO check.  What you describe happens when there is no check--and it ruins the system for EVERYONE.  Shumlin was the first Governor I can think of where ideology was all that mattered.  As I've said, worst governor in modern Vermont history.  I remember when he ran for Lt. Governor in 2002 and I was a college student helping with campaigning.  I could not support him--something just seemed off with him.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 30, 2021)

Get your popcorn out.









						Developers in EB-5 fraud case, all facing prison time, expected to square off in court
					

Bill Stenger, Jay Peak’s former CEO and president, is trying to avoid going to prison. His past business partners are ready to take the stand against him as prosecutors seek to show that he was more than a “bystander” in a scheme that bilked hundreds of foreign investors.



					vtdigger.org
				




_Stenger’s attorneys, David Williams and Brooks McArthur, have also subpoenaed several high-ranking state officials from the Shumlin administration to testify at the hearing, a time when the Vermont EB-5 Regional Center was supposed to be monitoring and overseeing the projects led by Stenger and Quiros._


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## VTKilarney (Oct 4, 2021)

Bummer.  The state officials will not have to testify.









						Top state officials to avoid testifying in EB-5 fraud case
					

Bill Stenger, Jay Peak’s former CEO and president, has reached an agreement with prosecutors on evidence for his sentencing. The deal nixes a hearing where current and past state leaders



					vtdigger.org


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 4, 2021)

So now that we have reached the throw everyone else under the bus to save your own ass part of the story, has it come out yet how exactly Stenger profited from this whole thing? 

I mean, I get how the VT officials would be incentivized, and obviously Quiros, but I still struggle with how Stenger was really making a mint off any of this other than the paycheck he was already getting to begin with.


----------



## ScottySkis (Oct 5, 2021)

Read down several articles to see about Jay possible ssold today









						News roundup: Health Department reports 192 new COVID infections, and two more people have died
					

Vermont reporters provide a roundup of top news takeaways about the coronavirus, Saturday’s reproductive rights rally and more for Monday, Oct. 4.




					www.vpr.org


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 5, 2021)

thanks Scotty!

here's the text for those who don't want to click and scroll


4. Court documents show Jay Peak leaders "actively engaged" in sale discussions​Jay Peak ski resort's leaders are "actively engaged" in sale discussions with several potential buyers, according to recently filed court documents.

Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed receiver who runs the resort, wrote in Friday's filing that draft purchase agreements have been exchanged — though he didn't say how many.

The process of selling the ski resort ground to a halt last year due to the pandemic. Goldberg restarted the search earlier this year.

Jay Peak has been managed by Goldberg since 2016, after owner Ariel Quiros and developer Bill Stenger were accused of misappropriating more than $200 million from foreign investors.

_- Liam Elder-Connors_


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> So now that we have reached the throw everyone else under the bus to save your own ass part of the story, has it come out yet how exactly Stenger profited from this whole thing?
> 
> I mean, I get how the VT officials would be incentivized, and obviously Quiros, but I still struggle with how Stenger was really making a mint off any of this other than the paycheck he was already getting to begin with.


I believe he had an equity stake in the main entity.


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## PAabe (Oct 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Jay Peak ski resort's leaders are "actively engaged" in sale discussions with several potential buyers, according to recently filed court documents.



gosh anyone but vail or KSL.  Hopefully they don't have the cash assets to pull that off right now

Does this also include Burke?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 5, 2021)

I believe they are separate


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## drjeff (Oct 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> thanks Scotty!
> 
> here's the text for those who don't want to click and scroll
> 
> ...


I wouldn't hold my breath on any sale announcement yet,  Pretty sure depending on how one looks at the term "actively engaged" that it could of been used to decsribe things for a couple of years now.

Plus, I am guessing that in terms of Jay Peak news, "actively engaged" in sale discussions sounds better than still involved with fraud investigations!   

Get some definite closure with the fraud situation, get the border with Canada once again fully freely open to get Jay's sizable Monteal area market heading there in normal numbers again, and then what I am guessing is still a figure that a buyer would pay verses what the group overseeing things now is still looking for for those who took financial losses with the EB-5 fraud, will probably reach a resoultion and new owners will be announced


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## thetrailboss (Oct 5, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I believe they are separate


They are indeed separate.  Burke's Hotel still needs to create enough jobs in order to get the investors their Green Cards.  Also they want to get things on firmer footing operationally and financially before trying to market it.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I wouldn't hold my breath on any sale announcement yet,  Pretty sure depending on how one looks at the term "actively engaged" that it could of been used to decsribe things for a couple of years now.
> 
> Plus, I am guessing that in terms of Jay Peak news, "actively engaged" in sale discussions sounds better than still involved with fraud investigations!


Completely agree on both counts.  As to my read of the news, I think it is merely passing offers back and forth.  Folks forget that the receiver gave an idea of what he "wanted" to get for the resort and the numbers were pretty damn high.  Unfortunately, he has to set a high demand because he has a lot of people to pay back and to try to make whole.  So I think that there is no deal really close, at least yet.  As to players, no doubt the usual suspects are looking but they are looking for a firebrand deal.  I think it is going to be sitting for a while longer.  The Receiver can't get that U.S. Border reopened fast enough.

As to the news spin, absolutely an effort to distract from the sentencing hearing that is coming.  As pointed out, miraculously certain public officials have yet again dodged another bullet.

And one thing I have meant to comment on is that I went to Jay this summer with my 9-year old daughter on a rainy day to hit to water park, so here is a brief report.

It was my first visit since 2003.  Yes, 2003.  Back then I was a Jay/Burke Passholder.  No hotels, no Pumphouse, no ice arena, no golf course.  Stateside Chalet was a dump.  Hotel Jay was basically a chalet with guestrooms.  The town?  Surprisingly almost exactly as I remember it-- a gas station and a couple stores.  Troy?  Same.  No real big development.  Once you started up the hill though I noticed that a couple of former "independent" hotels are now Jay property, presumably for staff housing.  So the big EB-5 development work was largely within the boundaries of the resort.  I figured I would see at least a few spin-off developments, but nothing really.

The main base area is honestly pretty damn impressive.  The hotels tower above, surprisingly, the same dirt parking area that I remember.  I think there is a parking garage/structure but it was not as extensive as I would have expected.  I wish I had videoed my daughter's reaction when we walked into the Pumphouse--she was stoked.  We were there from 11am until 2pm when it closed.  As it was a Sunday they had a limited open time.  They had A LOT of staff supervising things.  I've been to my share of waterparks and this one was the best.  The staff were all friendly to me and my daughter.  The price we paid was reasonable.  We went into the waterpark store and I was looking for souvenirs and Jay/Pumphouse Swag.  It was pretty picked over.  Other items had been in stock for a while.  Yet the prices, honestly, were damn cheap in my opinion.  I bought a new swimsuit, not because I needed it but because I liked it, for $15.00.  I was expecting twice if not three times that.  It was evident that this retail outlet was being throttled back to control costs, but man, if they had my size in other items I would have bought more.

Food, also, was decent.  Typical resort fast-food that appeals to kids.  The prices were reasonable and perhaps even underpriced.  Service was good.

The Park itself was well laid out and had plenty of tables and chairs.  Business was brisk, but not busy.  A lot of locals and folks staying at the resort from what I heard and saw.  No french spoken as the border was shut (it was July).  As I am not in the same shape as I was 20 years ago, the Big River and hot tubs were my speed but I did a couple of the water slides.  I liked how they went outside the building and came back in--that was pretty cool.  No way was I trying LaChute   The Big River was long enough and had enough rapids to be fun and entertaining on multiple loops while my daughter played on the slides and with kids in other areas.

My daughter tried the Flowrider.  She did not realize that she needed me to sign a release, but the lifeguard was awesome and helped us out.  He even stopped to give her a bandaid for a tiny cut on her knee.  He could have been a dick but he was extremely patient and great.  Once we got the release signed he did a great job showing her how to boogie board and she had a blast.  Again, he could have just not even cared, but he was doing a great job with guests and allowing them to enjoy the experience on their own terms instead of rushing them through.

Bathrooms and locker areas were simple, clean, and easy to use.  The Bar upstairs was pretty cool, but I did not partake.

I went to a similar indoor waterpark recently in Rapid City, South Dakota that is over 20 years old and it was not the same size or caliber.  And it cost more.  I was telling my wife, "man, we need to take you to the Pumphouse!"

After we dried off, we hit to arcade.  My daughter burned through $10 in like 3 minutes.  She had fun and the arcade was just the right size I thought.  I did not want her lingering in there though.....

We then went to the Provisions General Store and had much better luck finding Jay swag.  Again, a lot of sizes were missing but I was able to find what I wanted and I paid a reasonable price for what it was.  I thought that the store was well-done.  Quite a large retail space with groceries, beer, prepared food, souvenirs, and outerwear.  From what I saw, food prices were at a bit of a premium, as expected, but not overboard.  Massive improvement over what limited options they had in 2003.  Nice that it was "one stop" with decent hours.

Last stop was over to Stateside.  The new lodge and hotel there were beautiful but were dead.  Essentially mothballed for the summer.

The one big thing that surprised me was that there are some really nice new buildings and the entrance road was re-engineered based on what I recalled it being, but overall there were a lot of dirt roads, dirt parking lots, no real landscaping, and old pavement.  I told my family that I saw some really nice buildings, but I had a hard time seeing hundreds of millions of dollars in front of me (as we now know, a lot of that was "used" for other things for the Q).  Compared to resorts out west, I would have expected paved roads, landscaping, and more of a "finished" presentation of the grounds.  With the exception of the new Taxi Quad and a shortened Bonnie, the lifts are the same as they were in 2003 but now 18 years older.

Like Santa's Village and Schilling, the Pumphouse WILL be "must do" on our visits back to the NEK.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I was telling my wife, "man, we need to take you to the Pumphouse!"



Too much information.

The one part of your review that I take issue with is that there are plenty of tables and chairs.  When the Pumphouse is operating at capacity there are definitely not enough.


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## mbedle (Oct 6, 2021)

The other thing that was interesting about the sale is that an auction will be conducted to determine who will purchase the resort. At least that what this sounds like - 
The intent is to conclude a transaction, subject to Court approval, and after an auction process, as soon as a buyer is identified and an asset purchase agreement finalized.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2021)

mbedle said:


> The other thing that was interesting about the sale is that an auction will be conducted to determine who will purchase the resort. At least that what this sounds like -
> The intent is to conclude a transaction, subject to Court approval, and after an auction process, as soon as a buyer is identified and an asset purchase agreement finalized.


Good point.  That makes sense considering that this is in receivership.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2021)

Please God Noooooo!!!!


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 8, 2021)

Well, at least this will be good for my condo value.  I really did not think Vail was interested.  I though it made a lot more sense for Alterra, but what do I know.  Moving to BC soon anyway.


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## fbrissette (Oct 8, 2021)

Looks like it was simply a Friday prank.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2021)

I hope so.  I know Steve can be a wise guy.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Please God Noooooo!!!!


I would be surprised if they come to a deal this quickly.  At least Steve has good taste in music.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 9, 2021)

They certainly wouldn’t announce (or leak) a deal this way.  If anything, it suggests that Vail is not a candidate.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 10, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Well, at least this will be good for my condo value.  I really did not think Vail was interested.  *I though it made a lot more sense for Alterra,* but what do I know.  Moving to BC soon anyway.



Alterra was & is my guess; it makes too much sense (unfortunately).


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## Hawk (Oct 11, 2021)

At this pont does it really matter who buys it?.   To me, It was never the same once they put in all the amenites.  Now the skier traffic is so increased that even the Jay Cloud cant keep up and the place tracks up by 11.  I used to go a few times a year.  Not any more.


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## Hawk (Oct 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Alterra was & is my guess; it makes too much sense (unfortunately).


I agree with you but I think their plans must have changed since the finanials were tallied for last year.  Hard to expand after loosing money I would think.  Just a guess though.  Who knows. Oddly enough, John Hammond said that the Alterra guys were in VT recently for the first time since they bought Sugarbush.  You know Covid and all.  They were impressed and talk about the potential.  Interesting.  I wonder if they did a covert mission North while they were here?


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> At this pont does it really matter who buys it?.   To me, It was never the same once they put in all the amenites.  Now the skier traffic is so increased that even the Jay Cloud cant keep up and the place tracks up by 11.  I used to go a few times a year.  Not any more.



Answer this question.  Would you rather Alterra or Vail own Sugarbush


----------



## Hawk (Oct 11, 2021)

No your right.  Alterra is better.  I just liked the old Jay with smaller crowds, more pow and less tracks before those "Business men" destroyed the place.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2021)

I miss those days too


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2021)

in reality how sustainable was jay that way?  Did they need a water park and an Ice rink ? most definitely not.  but the place needs some better more modern lodging.  If it wasn't for the damn fraud, they may have already been gobbled up by one of these ski corporations.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I agree with you but I think their plans must have changed since the finanials were tallied for last year.  Hard to expand after loosing money I would think.  Just a guess though.  Who knows. Oddly enough, John Hammond said that the Alterra guys were in VT recently for the first time since they bought Sugarbush.  You know Covid and all.  They were impressed and talk about the potential.  Interesting.  I wonder if they did a covert mission North while they were here?


Exactly.  

As I posted a little while ago, Alterra lost more than $100 mill due to COVID for the 2019-2020 season (and are now suing their insurer).  That's a huge chunk of change.  Add to it that Vail dropped the price of EPIC to entice more business this season and it appears that it worked-at least to a certain point.  Vail is publicly traded while Alterra is private, so their resources are limited.  I really have a hard time seeing Alterra throwing a lot of money to buy Jay--at least not for the price that the Receiver wants.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> in reality how sustainable was jay that way?  Did they need a water park and an Ice rink ? most definitely not.  but the place needs some better more modern lodging.  If it wasn't for the damn fraud, they may have already been gobbled up by one of these ski corporations.


Those amenities made Jay a weather-proof resort.  And it also added significant offseason business.  And are you saying that they still need better lodging?  IMHO what they have now is pretty damn good.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Answer this question.  Would you rather Alterra or Vail own Sugarbush


Is there a third option?


----------



## Hawk (Oct 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> in reality how sustainable was jay that way?  Did they need a water park and an Ice rink ? most definitely not.  but the place needs some better more modern lodging.  If it wasn't for the damn fraud, they may have already been gobbled up by one of these ski corporations.


Jimmy, I never had any issues with staying at Jay.  There are like 10 different houses that were for rent that we cycled through.  We also stayed at the condos right on the hill or one of the several little hotels.  I reall don't need the top notch amenities.  But that is me and that time is gone.  So are the many stashes there used to be if you knew the place.  Even the hike out to little jay is overrun with touists.  YIKES.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Those amenities made Jay a weather-proof resort.  And it also added significant offseason business.  And are you saying that they still need better lodging?  IMHO what they have now is pretty damn good.


no I was referring to pre build out.


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## machski (Oct 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I agree with you but I think their plans must have changed since the finanials were tallied for last year.  Hard to expand after loosing money I would think.  Just a guess though.  Who knows. Oddly enough, John Hammond said that the Alterra guys were in VT recently for the first time since they bought Sugarbush.  You know Covid and all.  They were impressed and talk about the potential.  Interesting.  I wonder if they did a covert mission North while they were here?


And Steve Kircher and co were just out East too recently.  I know Sugarloaf hosted them for a while to discuss longer term plans up there, perhaps a side trip to NoVT too??  That would be a horrible addition to the New England Pass (JK!!)


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> no I was referring to pre build out.


OK.  Yes, totally.  I thought you were talking about now and I was like "huh?"


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Jimmy, I never had any issues with staying at Jay.  There are like 10 different houses that were for rent that we cycled through.  We also stayed at the condos right on the hill or one of the several little hotels.  I reall don't need the top notch amenities.  But that is me and that time is gone.  So are the many stashes there used to be if you knew the place.  Even the hike out to little jay is overrun with touists.  YIKES.


I was wondering if it had gotten overrun.  The last time I skied Jay was 2003


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

machski said:


> And Steve Kircher and co were just out East too recently.  I know Sugarloaf hosted them for a while to discuss longer term plans up there, perhaps a side trip to NoVT too??  That would be a horrible addition to the New England Pass (JK!!)


Yeah, everyone focuses on Vail and Alterra but forgets about Boyne, POWDR (hell no!), and the Fairbanks (Jiminy, Cranmore).  There also could be other groups out there (return of MSSI perhaps?)


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2021)

LOL yeah new accommodations are very nice

Yeah Boyne would be an interesting play


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> LOL yeah new accommodations are very nice
> 
> Yeah Boyne would be an interesting play


If you think about it, Boyne does not have a Vermont property.  It also gets them into Canada.  And is another way to draw folks to Big Sky.  As an investment, the amenities are all done.  One just needs to replace maybe two lifts and you are good to go.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2021)

It really does make sense.  I still wonder what the asking price is.   Is Jay Peak Resort a $50-$100 million property?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It really does make sense.  I still wonder what the asking price is.   Is Jay Peak Resort a $50-$100 million property?


I believe the receiver wanted north of $130 mill if I recall correctly because he has a lot of cheated investors to pay.  

As to valuation from a business standpoint, I think it is hard to justify that price.  At least currently.


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## Cobbold (Oct 11, 2021)

Any thoughts on the Berkshire East group buying jay, I hear they may have deep pockets.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 11, 2021)

i hope whoever does it completes the west bowl expansion but i wont hold my breath

i don't think jay is particularly overrun, and i tend to hit it on some bigger holiday type weekends when my other passes are blacked out. was fine for me this past mlk weekend, which was also a pow day


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## thetrailboss (Oct 11, 2021)

Cobbold said:


> Any thoughts on the Berkshire East group buying jay, I hear they may have deep pockets.


I also thought of them but don’t have any deep knowledge as to that group


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Even the hike out to little jay is overrun with tourists.  YIKES.


Hate to say but if you only went a few times a year you were a tourist too.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *Answer this question.  Would you rather Alterra or Vail own Sugarbush*



That's what I was getting at, but I agree with him that Jay Peak was better back before parking garages, a hockey rink, water park, hotels, and whatever else was artificially dropped there via completely phony financials.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I was wondering if it had gotten overrun.  The last time I skied Jay was 2003



It's a quantifiable quagmire of Quebecois.  At least during some times.  For instance, the bookended weekends of Canuck school vacation is absolutely no-go territory.


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## fbrissette (Oct 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's what I was getting at, but I agree with him that Jay Peak was better back before parking garages, a hockey rink, water park, hotels, and whatever else was artificially dropped there via completely phony financials.


The old Jay Peak model was unfortunately unsustainable, with crumbling lodging  infrastructures.  The pre-covid numbers under the receivership have shown that the new Jay peak is now a very profitable business, thanks to new year-round infrastructures (financed on the back of sorry investors).   From a pure 'skier-days per acre' criteria, the old Jay Peak was clearly much better.  But compared to the current competition,  Jay Peak still has some of the shortest lift lines in the east.


----------



## machski (Oct 11, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i hope whoever does it completes the west bowl expansion but i wont hold my breath
> 
> i don't think jay is particularly overrun, and i tend to hit it on some bigger holiday type weekends when my other passes are blacked out. was fine for me this past mlk weekend, which was also a pow day


Last year you cannot count as the Northern contingent was locked out.


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## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2021)

The 3 times I went last year Jay had the longest lines of any ski area I went to besides Stowe on +30” day.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's what I was getting at, but I agree with him that Jay Peak was better back before parking garages, a hockey rink, water park, hotels, and whatever else was artificially dropped there via completely phony financials.



Yep

Feel the same about Stowe.  Though that I assume was financed all on the up and up.

Sugarbush I feel has done the modernization and revenue generating expansion development the best of the Eastern areas.   I don't love Claybrook, but it didn't totally change the mountain vibe. 

Of the major operators, I'd probably vote for Boyne as who I'd want to buy the place.  Even though I'd never buy that pass due to an unfavorable opinion on Loon and all the others being too far.  They feel the least corporate of all of the major players and are pretty focused on letting places make mostly local decisions for their customer base.  They don't seem interested in racing to the bottom with Vail.


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## crank (Oct 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I was wondering if it had gotten overrun.  The last time I skied Jay was 2003





KustyTheKlown said:


> i hope whoever does it completes the west bowl expansion but i wont hold my breath
> 
> i don't think jay is particularly overrun, and i tend to hit it on some bigger holiday type weekends when my other passes are blacked out. was fine for me this past mlk weekend, which was also a pow day



I used to ski Jay at least a few times per season from 1985 up through around 2007.  Last time I was there was 2013 and it seemed to me that side country off Jet was completely tracked out much faster.  Used to be able to mine that area for days.


----------



## urungus (Oct 13, 2021)

Border to open for vaccinated Canadian travelers in early November, just in time for ski season








						US will re-open Canadian and Mexican borders to fully vaccinated visitors
					

The United States plans to ease restrictions on travel for fully vaccinated visitors from Canada and Mexico starting in early November, relaxing bans that have been in place for more than 18 months, according to senior administration officials.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 13, 2021)

urungus said:


> Border to open for vaccinated Canadian travelers in early November, just in time for ski season
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is obviously a good first step, bus as long as a 72-hour negative PCR test is required to enter the US (will wait and see if this is required for vaccinated canadian) and to come back to Canada (currently required for vaccinated Canadians), nobody will cross the border for a week-end.


----------



## ScottySkis (Oct 14, 2021)

Several buyers interested in Jay Peak as receiver’s bill for EB-5 cleanup nears $10 million
					

No one’s been named yet, but draft purchase agreements have been submitted for the northern Vermont ski resort, according to the court-appointed receiver overseeing Jay Peak.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## Harvey (Nov 1, 2021)

I heard sale was imminent. Anyone know anything?


----------



## thebigo (Nov 1, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I heard sale was imminent. Anyone know anything?



Not sure who it will be but I know who it won't be.



> Jay Peak is “actively engaged” in sales discussions with several potential buyers (Boyne is not one of them, Kircher confirmed, though he said that Boyne did in fact bid on Jay in the last, pre-Covid round of purchase offers).


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 1, 2021)

I'll be shocked if Alterra doesn't emerge on top of this fight.  Gives them greater scale in New England while allowing them to dominate the Montreal market in combination with Tremblant.  My guess is that Vail would respond by purchasing RCR to get control of Stoneham and Mt. St. Anne (among others in regions where Vail is light).


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 1, 2021)

RCR is private company and I don't think it's for sale.  Not sure Vail could afford it anyway.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 1, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> RCR is private company and I don't think it's for sale.  Not sure Vail could afford it anyway.


RCR is no more private than the umpteen other mountains Vail has purchased.  If they could find a cool billion for Whistler, I don't think they'll have any trouble affording RCR.  Look at its portfolio - Fernie, Kimberley, Kicking Horse, Nakiska, Stoneham and St. Anne.  If they collectively add up to much more than 1M skier visits, I'd be surprised.  W-B alone regularly tops 2M and has a much higher value customer base as an internationally known destination resort. 

Net/net, Vail could find the money to buy RCR in the change between the seat cushions.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I heard sale was imminent. Anyone know anything?


The dream team is back.   







(Just kidding)


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2021)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I'll be shocked if Alterra doesn't emerge on top of this fight.  Gives them greater scale in New England while allowing them to dominate the Montreal market in combination with Tremblant.  My guess is that Vail would respond by purchasing RCR to get control of Stoneham and Mt. St. Anne (among others in regions where Vail is light).


Maybe.  I don't think Alterra is rolling in dough right now.  They got hammered in 2020 (at least a $100 million loss). and have dumped some serious money into Steamboat as of late.  Only KSL/Crown knows for sure.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Nov 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Maybe.  I don't think Alterra is rolling in dough right now.  They got hammered in 2020 (at least a $100 million loss). and have dumped some serious money into Steamboat as of late.  Only KSL/Crown knows for sure.


Couldn't you say that about most multi-mountain operators though?  I can't imagine that POWDR weathered COVID any better and we know the Kirchers are out, so that really leaves the field to a small number of likely candidates.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2021)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Couldn't you say that about most multi-mountain operators though?  I can't imagine that POWDR weathered COVID any better and we know the Kirchers are out, so that really leaves the field to a small number of likely candidates.


Who said Boyne is out?  

There could also be someone else besides Vail and Alterra.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 1, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Who said Boyne is out?



From the recent Storm Skiing podcast after Boyne bought Shawnee:


> Jay Peak is “actively engaged” in sales discussions with several potential buyers (Boyne is not one of them, Kircher confirmed, though he said that Boyne did in fact bid on Jay in the last, pre-Covid round of purchase offers).


----------



## Dickc (Nov 15, 2021)

Vermont Democratic Sen. Patrick Leahy won’t seek reelection

Not sure if this has anything to do with the Jay Peak EB-5 stuff or not.....


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2021)

i'd say it most likely has a lot more to do with him being 82 by the time the election comes, which would make him 88 by the time he serves out his next term. just time to stop.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i'd say it most likely has a lot more to do with him being 82 by the time the election comes, which would make him 88 by the time he serves out his next term. just time to stop.


He has been a senator since 1974. 47 years.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> He has been a senator since 1974. 47 years.


Thats why they need term limits.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Thats why they need term limits.


Well the people of VT keep electing him. There are pluses and minuses of term limits.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Well the people of VT keep electing him. There are pluses and minuses of term limits.


The incumbent has a major advantage, especially after decades. They have to do something really dumb to lose their position for the most part.


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 16, 2021)

Yes, but you also get to keep a half decent politician if you find them. It's a thorny problem.


----------



## ThatGuy (Nov 16, 2021)

IceEidolon said:


> Yes, but you also get to keep a half decent politician if you find them. It's a thorny problem.


If there’s such few decent politicians where you need the same one for 40 years then thats a big problem as well.


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 16, 2021)

I worked with skilled Mtn ops staff that were just about 40 year employees. I wouldn't fire them for term limits either - their experience and connections and skill is hugely valuable.

My actual point, though, is that it's a complex issue and just adding term limits will pretty much just change the names attached to the acts, not fix much.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Nov 17, 2021)

Vermont has a unique habit reelecting long term Senators and Representatives. This allows the state to punch above its weight due to committee seniority. I like the way they alternate Republican governors. The state has done well with that as it curbs excesses generally. Setting aside Shumlin of course just to keep on topic.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> Vermont has a unique habit reelecting long term Senators and Representatives. This allows the state to punch above its weight due to committee seniority. I like the way they alternate Republican governors. The state has done well with that as it curbs excesses generally. Setting aside Shumlin of course just to keep on topic.


I'm not sure that the legislature "curbs excesses."


----------



## JoeB-Z (Nov 17, 2021)

I was talking about electing Republican governors. As to curbing excesses, that has to be taken in the context of the reality of the Vermont electorate. I wasn't talking about the Vermont legislature.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 17, 2021)

JoeB-Z said:


> I was talking about electing Republican governors. As to curbing excesses, that has to be taken in the context of the reality of the Vermont electorate. I wasn't talking about the Vermont legislature.


Agreed.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2021)

Prosecutors want EB-5 records kept secret ‘however unsatisfying’ to ‘the media, or the Vermont public’
					

Assistant U.S. Attorney Nicole Cate argues that bilked foreign investors suing the state should not have access to documents provided to attorneys in a criminal case, calling a move by the lawyer seeking them an “end-run.”



					vtdigger.org
				





This sentiment seems to completely ignore the reality of the real damage caused to Vermont's reputation and the need for transparency and accountability.  If anything there is more of a need to make this information public.  



> “However unsatisfying for the Barr Law Group, the media, or the Vermont public, the assignment of criminal culpability is distinct from an assessment of governmental competence and related civil liability,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Nicole Cate wrote in the filing.



I have not reviewed the legal issues, but again this was the worst fraud in Vermont's history and I'd say that the pendulum has swung to the "disclose more than necessary" side in order to try to regain public confidence.  

Silly and naive I know.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> The incumbent has a major advantage



True, but it's much simpler than that, all you need to win in Vermont is a 'D' next to your name.  Obviously it wasnt like that in the beginning of Leahy's career, but it is now.


----------



## urungus (Nov 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> True, but it's much simpler than that, all you need to win in Vermont is a 'D' next to your name.  Obviously it wasnt like that in the beginning of Leahy's career, but it is now.


Vermonts current governor is a three-term Republican with a 41% victory margin in his latest re-election


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2021)

urungus said:


> Vermonts current governor is a three-term Republican with a 41% victory margin in his latest re-election


A very moderate Republican that is.  

It's too bad there are no longer two decently organized parties to keep each other in check in Vermont.  The Vermont Republican Party is in between a rock and a hard place.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 26, 2021)

urungus said:


> Vermonts current governor is a three-term Republican with a 41% victory margin in his latest re-election



Vermont's current governor is a three-term Democrat who puts an 'R' next to his name to run against the other Democrat.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Vermont's current governor is a three-term Democrat who puts an 'R' next to his name to run against the other Democrat.



It will be interesting to see what happens next election if they run somebody against him that's not a complete unhinged lunatic now that he's pissed off all of the branch covidians in Vermont for not going full covid totalitarian again


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 29, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens next election if they run somebody against him that's not a complete unhinged lunatic now that he's pissed off all of the branch covidians in Vermont for not going full covid totalitarian again



He is definitely taking a LOT of heat for not ratcheting up Covid restrictions.  But those are the most vocal people - a large percentage of whom don't work.  We are nearly two years into this thing and the hospitals are not overwhelmed.  At some point you have to realize that we aren't going to stop Covid.

If what they say about the Omicron variant is true, I'm actually rooting for it.  People on the ground in South Africa are saying that it's a mild form of Covid that is not sending anyone to the hospital.  Ironically, we are closing borders to prevent Omicron from gaining a foothold so the more serious Delta variant can continue spreading.

To be fair, we still have a lot to learn about Omicron, but the typical knee-jerk reaction seems to be happening.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 29, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> He is definitely taking a LOT of heat for not ratcheting up Covid restrictions.  But those are the most vocal people - a large percentage of whom don't work.  We are nearly two years into this thing and the hospitals are not overwhelmed.  At some point you have to realize that we aren't going to stop Covid.
> 
> If what they say about the Omnicron variant is true, I'm actually rooting for it.  People on the ground in South Africa are saying that it's a mild form of Covid that is not sending anyone to the hospital.  Ironically, we are closing borders to prevent Omicron from gaining a foothold so the more serious Delta variant can continue spreading.
> 
> To be fair, we still have a lot to learn about Omnicron, but the typical knee-jerk reaction seems to be happening.


Do we really and truly think a federal government that shuts down travel ( as limited at it may already be to and from those S- African nations) but has 'no comment' on the open southern US border, is truly serious about protecting the 'governed'?

Half the employment problem could be fixed if all able incoming were placed in jobs 'that no one wants'. The other half, well, look what EB-5 reaped. Workers were not the problem there - just the leadership of it. Still hoping for an Alterra purchase of Jay. I can see it happening if they contract out some of the hockey and water slide side businesses - their focus is ski area ops and real estate- not Disney-like ops.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 29, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> He is definitely taking a LOT of heat for not ratcheting up Covid restrictions.  But those are the most vocal people - a large percentage of whom don't work.  We are nearly two years into this thing and the hospitals are not overwhelmed.  At some point you have to realize that we aren't going to stop Covid.
> 
> If what they say about the Omicron variant is true, I'm actually rooting for it.  People on the ground in South Africa are saying that it's a mild form of Covid that is not sending anyone to the hospital.  Ironically, we are closing borders to prevent Omicron from gaining a foothold so the more serious Delta variant can continue spreading.
> 
> To be fair, we still have a lot to learn about Omicron, but the typical knee-jerk reaction seems to be happening.


I gnerally agree with you, although what is known so far about the mild effects of Omicron is based on a study tracking university students.  We should therfore wait a little bit before we extrapolate this data to a whole population.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 29, 2021)

I'm guessing there has been no chatter on the potential suitor to purchase Jay Peak?  I'll take the last several pages of VT political banter as a firm NO.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 29, 2021)

Nothing since the last report from the Receivership.   I assume that if nothing is annouced very soon, we might have to wait till summer/fall.


----------



## RH29 (Dec 27, 2021)

Big props to Jay Peak here. Their financials are no doubt suffering and they could definitely use the money, but they're giving full refunds, no questions asked, to Canadian passholders unable to travel to Jay this year.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 27, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Big props to Jay Peak here. Their financials are no doubt suffering and they could definitely use the money, but they're giving full refunds, no questions asked, to Canadian passholders unable to travel to Jay this year.
> 
> View attachment 52482


I don't think that they have much choice.


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## fbrissette (Dec 27, 2021)

RH29 said:


> Big props to Jay Peak here. Their financials are no doubt suffering and they could definitely use the money, but they're giving full refunds, no questions asked, to Canadian passholders unable to travel to Jay





thetrailboss said:


> I don't think that they have much choice.


Yep.  No Canadian would have bought a pass without the refund policy.   I told them to keep my money for next year's pass.   I think they need it more than me at this point.


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## abc (Dec 27, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Yep.  No Canadian would have bought a pass without the refund policy.   I told them to keep my money for next year's pass.   I think they need it more than me at this point.


How many Canadian bought Jay passes that were not using money rolled over from prior years? 

If I remember right, the US border was only technically open to Canadian in September. It took some time for the Canadian government to allow short travel without having to get a test in the US. So it can't be that many Canadians buying season passes across the border?


----------



## urungus (Dec 27, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Yep.  No Canadian would have bought a pass without the refund policy.   I told them to keep my money for next year's pass.   I think they need it more than me at this point.


One thing to keep in mind is that if Jay Peak is sold, new owner may not honor previous policies.  “Cash is king”  For instance, when Powdr bought Killington in 2007, they refused to recognize “lifetime” passes issued by the previous ownership https://www.rutlandherald.com/news/...cle_690ff75e-a200-50f2-8ec9-887c4a58f9d5.html


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## thetrailboss (Dec 27, 2021)

urungus said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that if Jay Peak is sold, new owner may not honor previous policies.  “Cash is king”  For instance, when Powdr bought Killington in 2007, they refused to recognize “lifetime” passes issued by the previous ownership https://www.rutlandherald.com/news/...cle_690ff75e-a200-50f2-8ec9-887c4a58f9d5.html


True, but unlikely.  Unless of course POWDR decides to buy Jay and piss off all those skiers and riders.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 27, 2021)

urungus said:


> One thing to keep in mind is that if Jay Peak is sold, new owner may not honor previous policies.  “Cash is king”  For instance, when Powdr bought Killington in 2007, they refused to recognize “lifetime” passes issued by the previous ownership https://www.rutlandherald.com/news/...cle_690ff75e-a200-50f2-8ec9-887c4a58f9d5.html


A one-time deferral/rollover is a vastly different situation than a "lifetime" pass.


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## machski (Dec 27, 2021)

cdskier said:


> A one-time deferral/rollover is a vastly different situation than a "lifetime" pass.


However, a Canadian could potentially roll over the value paid for their pass and have a new owner credit their rollover but without and exchange "discount.". In other words, a Canadian might have to shell out a bunch extra next year should a sale occur in ownership.  I wouldn't want my $$ locked up if that was a possibility.


----------



## kbroderick (Dec 28, 2021)

machski said:


> However, a Canadian could potentially roll over the value paid for their pass and have a new owner credit their rollover but without and exchange "discount.". In other words, a Canadian might have to shell out a bunch extra next year should a sale occur in ownership.  I wouldn't want my $$ locked up if that was a possibility.


Possible, but highly unlikely. I don't know what percentage of the business comes from north of the border, but I'm confident that it's high enough to be worth treating Canadians well.

The Killington lifetime pass situation was significantly different in ongoing scale and in that Killington was effectively competing against some of the folks holding those passes, as many were transferrable annually and thus rented out each season at sightly below resort pricing. At Jay Peak, it's hopefully a limited-time issue (one way or another, I expect we'll get back to allowing cross border travel by the time next ski season rolls around).


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 7, 2022)

Update regarding the State's claims:  









						Merrill Lynch to pay $4.5M settlement for role in Kingdom Con
					

The Vermont Department of Financial Regulation says Merrill Lynch has settled for  $4.5 million over the broker-dealer’s handling of the accounts used in connection with the EB-5 fraud at Jay Peak.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

Bump.  

This was in the Vail thread.  Another EB-5 headache.  It sounds like Vail wants to shut down the project and the State is pissed.  Perhaps the State once again promised investors something that it shouldn’t have?









						Vail Resorts is threatening immigration status of foreign investors in Mount Snow project, Vermont regulators allege
					

Vermont regulators this month issued a cease-and-desist order to Vail Resorts, alleging that the Colorado-based ski giant is reneging on an agreement with roughly 30 immigrant investors that could …




					www-denverpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2022)

I am surprised nobody posted about this.  According to LiftBlog the Bonnie is down for an extended time due to moisture freezing in the gear box last weekend.  






						Update on the Bonaventure Quad | Jay Peak Resort
					

January 28, 2022 UPDATE




					jaypeakresort.com


----------



## machski (Jan 23, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I am surprised nobody posted about this.  According to LiftBlog the Bonnie is down for an extended time due to moisture freezing in the gear box last weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh, the Bonnie was suppose to go years ago in favor of the Powerline 6.  That failure was the first indication to me the development at Jay was about to halt.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

machski said:


> Ahh, the Bonnie was suppose to go years ago in favor of the Powerline 6.  That failure was the first indication to me the development at Jay was about to halt.


Yeah spend millions on a new 6-Pack or buy a penthouse suite at Trump Tower?  Q chose the latter.  Skiers and riders lost.  I knew it was not good when they quietly "moved" the base terminal instead of replacing it.  For all those beautiful buildings, Jay's lifts are ancient.  The last "major" lift improvement was the Freezer in 1999-2000!


----------



## IceEidolon (Jan 23, 2022)

Well, there was the Tram overhaul, that's a long way from nothing. Unfortunately it doesn't add any capacity, just reliability.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 23, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Well, there was the Tram overhaul, that's a long way from nothing. Unfortunately it doesn't add any capacity, just reliability.


True.  Both the cabins and major overhaul a few years back.  The latter was done because they had no choice.....


----------



## machski (Jan 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah spend millions on a new 6-Pack or buy a penthouse suite at Trump Tower?  Q chose the latter.  Skiers and riders lost.  I knew it was not good when they quietly "moved" the base terminal instead of replacing it.  For all those beautiful buildings, Jay's lifts are ancient.  The last "major" lift improvement was the Freezer in 1999-2000!


Actually, the Power line 6 wasn't a $$ thing, it was an ACT250 thing.  State shit it down due to two tower footings being basically in seasonal streambeds.  I remember it went round and round, then they finally shelved the plans and just shortened Bonnie (to make room for Stateside Hotel).  Power line was suppose to shift towards Jet and run up the existing power line cut.


----------



## MG Skier (Jan 24, 2022)

IIRC, I think the Bonnie or the chairs and or towers etc. were possibly scheduled to upgrade the Jet to a quad if the 6 was built....there is not a ton of space at the top of the Jet Triple now, so I am fine with a triple over there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2022)

machski said:


> Actually, the Power line 6 wasn't a $$ thing, it was an ACT250 thing.  State shit it down due to two tower footings being basically in seasonal streambeds.  I remember it went round and round, then they finally shelved the plans and just shortened Bonnie (to make room for Stateside Hotel).  Power line was suppose to shift towards Jet and run up the existing power line cut.


That is very interesting considering that the other Vermont Regulators were all-in on Jay and giving Q whatever he wanted.....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2022)

More info coming soon......









						Judge: FBI interviews of Shumlin administration in EB-5 fraud case must be unsealed
					

The ruling will provide public access to summaries of interviews with the former governor, his top staffers and others who were responsible for overseeing the development projects at Jay Peak Resort and other Northeast Kingdom properties owned by the Miami developer Ariel Quiros.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## Naturalsnow (Jan 24, 2022)

machski said:


> Actually, the Power line 6 wasn't a $$ thing, it was an ACT250 thing.  State shit it down due to two tower footings being basically in seasonal streambeds.  I remember it went round and round, then they finally shelved the plans and just shortened Bonnie (to make room for Stateside Hotel).  Power line was suppose to shift towards Jet and run up the existing power line cut.


Wasn't Powerline the lift line for the original Bonaventure double?  When they built the quad, they cut a new lift line which paralleled the old one but didn't go up as high on the mountain.  They must have lost whatever grandfathered status the original double might have had and would have to go through a whole new permitting process for a new lift at this point.


----------



## MG Skier (Jan 25, 2022)

Lets hope the new owners (Whenever that happens) start taking care of the skier/boarder with some significant lift/snow making upgrades.....dare I say a West Bowl sans Hotel and a ton of condos.


----------



## machski (Jan 25, 2022)

MG Skier said:


> IIRC, I think the Bonnie or the chairs and or towers etc. were possibly scheduled to upgrade the Jet to a quad if the 6 was built....there is not a ton of space at the top of the Jet Triple now, so I am fine with a triple over there.


Yes, Bonnie was suppose to be refurbed and flipped to replace The Jet.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 1, 2022)

Governor Shumlin and Quiros were VERY close friend, apparently.









						‘Just between you and me’: FBI records reveal an EB-5 fraudster’s direct line to Gov. Peter Shumlin
					

Shumlin took gifts, campaign contributions and apartment stays from Jay Peak owner Ariel Quiros while he helped the Miami developer troubleshoot problems, the records show. A top regulator threatened to resign from Shumlin’s cabinet if he failed to protect investors.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 2, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Governor Shumlin and Quiros were VERY close friend, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Disgusting on multiple levels.  A Governor who took gifts and favors regularly because "there was no rule against it", yet he made his staff sign an ethics pledge to not do so (apparently he did as well but "it did not apply to him).  When things went south he told Quiros to be honest and cooperate to "protect *us all".  Us?!  *

Moulton knew Stenger and used him to get free lodging at Jay (minus the cost of cleaning).  The only reason she manages to bounce around in state government is because her Daddy was a former state employee. 

Raymond admits that in 2012 the EB-5 office had no checks and balances and was the "wild west."  It was around that time that Shummy was featured in the infamous promo video touting how the State "audited" projects when they had no fucking clue.  That talking point--nobody knows where it came from.  Maybe Quiros and Stenger, maybe another state official.  Complete B.S. 

When Hulme blew the whistle in *2012 *saying that $13 million was "missing", Raymond requested a simple audit.  Shumlin bought Stenger's plea that such audit would be too expensive.  The fact that a concerned Newport resident with a computer and internet figured out that Q and AnCBio was a complete sham and sent the info to the State in early 2013, who Shummy publicly said was "auditing" these projects shows just how corrupt or *flat out stupid the State really was.  *

And when oversight finally occurred, the Governor, Q, and Leahy told the regulators to back off.  Unfucking real. 

It is in the State's interest to maintain some shred of credibility to allow Shumlin, Moulton, and others to be prosecuted and held accountable.  Absolutely infuriating.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Feb 4, 2022)

And despite all this bullshit the mountain continues to deliver the goods.
A great day here, sorely needed by all, but not a particularly remarkable day at Jay.
Ski on all day non-stop snow (20) and  plenty of tracks to be laid.
An ultra core (and small) group of people keep the  on mountain things going.
Thank you mountain ops you rule.
Anyone who loves NE skiing should hope for a happy landing for JayPeak.
This is the kind of place we want to continue!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> a concerned Newport resident with a computer and internet figured out that Q and AnCBio was a complete sham



Anyone well-versed in biotech could have known this; it was_ that _obvious.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Anyone well-versed in biotech could have known this; it was_ that _obvious.


If you have time, read the latest installment from VT Digger.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> If you have time, read the latest installment from VT Digger.



Just finished it.  Amazing.  I still call total BS on Raymond's innocence.  At best he was guilty of work-place cowardice.  This really brought back memories of threads here that are 10 years old.   I still remember the, _"an audit would be too expensive"_ line & almost spitting up my diet mountain dew.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2022)

So Jay is no longer going to sell joint-season passes with Burke.  Sounds like a sale is imminent.  





__





						2022+23 Season Passes | Jay Peak Resort
					

Our 22+23 Season Passes are on sale. Purchase by October 10th for Tier 2 rates (and be eligible for this year's Season Passholder Appreciation Gift). Passes are at par for Canadian guests.




					jaypeakresort.com


----------



## Keelhauled (Feb 27, 2022)

Their communications director said earlier this month that "there are two viable contenders, I would say, that are at the 20-yard line."


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2022)

Update:  Jay has two remaining potential buyers who are bidding against each other.  Both agree to "let Jay do what it does" according to Steve Wright. 

And though Canadian traffic is down, apparently the U.S. traffic has increased to "more than make up" for that loss.  The last two weekends were very busy.









						Jay voters condemn Russia, learn at least 2 buyers want to purchase Jay Peak
					

The head of the northern Vermont resort, the largest taxpayer in the town, provided an update Tuesday on the sale process for the ski area that has been in receivership since spring 2016.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## NYDB (Mar 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Update:  Jay has two remaining potential buyers who are bidding against each other.  Both agree to "let Jay do what it does" according to Steve Wright.



So both buyers agree to keep inflating snowfall totals?


----------



## ThatGuy (Mar 4, 2022)

NYDB said:


> So both buyers agree to keep inflating snowfall totals?


They’re so close to the border sometimes they mix up inches and centimeters in their calculations


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 5, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> They’re so close to the border sometimes they mix up inches and centimeters in their calculations



Orographic lift is a very powerful phenomena, so much so that Jay Peak some years receives more snow than Hoth.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2022)

Th


NYDB said:


> So both buyers agree to keep inflating snowfall totats





NYDB said:


> So both buyers agree to keep inflating snowfall totals?


Must be part of the deal.


----------



## Vince (Mar 5, 2022)

Skied 2 great powder days in a row Weds and Thurs. Not very crowded at all. Hopefully this place doesn't get ruined by a new buyer.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Mar 7, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just finished it.  Amazing.  I still call total BS on Raymond's innocence.  At best he was guilty of work-place cowardice.  This really brought back memories of threads here that are 10 years old.   I still remember the, _"an audit would be too expensive"_ line & almost spitting up my diet mountain dew.


Scamming nonprofits, IRS and such is the new norm. Sad, but true. Been out of the ski game for a year, but I've lost 180lbs and can't wait...
I've hiked thousands of miles. It's fun because a year ago I was left for dead at Dartmouth Hitchcock - Lebanon.

Hospice isn't as fun as it sounds. Coming back from the dead. - Priceless


----------



## MG Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Anyone know why the Jet triple hasn't been running? Mechanical? Financial? Labor? Just curious, not sure if and when I can get up there this year.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Mar 10, 2022)

Maintenance


----------



## MG Skier (Mar 10, 2022)

Roger that, thanks!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2022)

Leahy, former booster of scandal-plagued EB-5 program, revives it with reforms
					

Legislation aimed at curbing fraud and reining in unscrupulous developers in the immigrant investor program is included in the omnibus spending package to fund the federal government, which lawmakers are



					vtdigger.org


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Leahy, former booster of scandal-plagued EB-5 program, revives it with reforms
> 
> 
> Legislation aimed at curbing fraud and reining in unscrupulous developers in the immigrant investor program is included in the omnibus spending package to fund the federal government, which lawmakers are
> ...



Truly terrible news, but government thieves are always going to find ways to fleece the system, and this is about the easiest way imaginable.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Truly terrible news, but government thieves are always going to find ways to fleece the system, and this is about the easiest way imaginable.


He is retiring (and every single D pol in Vermont is running for his seat).  This is meant to repair his legacy.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2022)

EB-5 prosecutors seek 5 years in prison for Stenger, the maximum allowed under plea deal
					

The former Jay Peak president is set for sentencing later this month on a charge of submitting a false document to the government in a failed project to build a $110 million biomedical center in Newport, known as AnC Bio Vermont.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> EB-5 prosecutors seek 5 years in prison for Stenger, the maximum allowed under plea deal
> 
> 
> The former Jay Peak president is set for sentencing later this month on a charge of submitting a false document to the government in a failed project to build a $110 million biomedical center in Newport, known as AnC Bio Vermont.
> ...


People should keep in mind that the ANC-Bio project never even had a veneer of being a real deal. From the onset it was the most fantastical aspect of the EB-5 scam. This is where Stenger's respectable but fooled ski executive pr/excuses totally breaks down and he deserves the full term. At the start, I read the prospectus and laughed. The notion of attracting advanced PhD bio research talent to Newport is a fairy tale. Let alone the nature of the underlying Korean company. I could go on...


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 5, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> People should keep in mind that the ANC-Bio project never even had a veneer of being a real deal. From the onset it was the most fantastical aspect of the EB-5 scam. This is where Stenger's respectable but fooled ski executive pr/excuses totally breaks down and he deserves the full term. At the start, I read the prospectus and laughed. The notion of attracting advanced PhD bio research talent to Newport is a fairy tale. Let alone the nature of the underlying Korean company. I could go on...


it's a shame that the Q's got off easy. They should be locked up as well and for longer


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 5, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> it's a shame that the Q's got off easy. They should be locked up as well and for longer


I believe his plea deal is 8-years max.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 8, 2022)

Are any politicians going to go to jail?   Dont bother answering.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 8, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> the ANC-Bio project never even had a veneer of being a real deal............The notion of attracting advanced PhD bio research talent to Newport is a fairy tale. Let alone the nature of the underlying Korean company. I could go on...



The fact this passed no problem shows how bumpkin Vermont is.  I wrote on an AZ thread at the time the deal was announced that it would never come to fruition.  Bonus points for it being about stem cell therapies for cardiac patients & artificial organs! = ROTFLMAO.  Couldn't they have just gone with generic drug manufacturing or some other low-hanging, more plausible fruit?  Nah, let's go with the most futuristic high-risk endeavor we can possibly think of.  Go big or go home!   And it worked too, that's the amazing thing.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 14, 2022)

Stenger getting sentenced today.  Prosecution asking for 5 years


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 14, 2022)

Stenger sentenced to 18 months in prison for role in EB-5 fraud​








						‘I got lost along the way’: Stenger sentenced to 18 months in prison for role in EB-5 fraud
					

Judge Geoffrey Crawford handed down the sentence Thursday in federal court in Burlington. He also ordered Stenger, the former president of Jay Peak Resort, to pay restitution of $250,000.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 14, 2022)

Rumor around the mountain is Jay Peak has been sold to an investment firm. Major announcement tomorrow.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2022)

JPTracker said:


> Rumor around the mountain is Jay Peak has been sold to an investment firm. Major announcement tomorrow.


Oh boy......


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2022)

The sentence for Bill is in:









						Stenger sentenced to 18 months for Kingdom Con
					

A federal judge Thursday sentenced Bill Stenger, the former president of Jay Peak, to serve 18 months in prison for his role in the Kingdom Con fraud case.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 15, 2022)

What a shame... he was the guy everyone liked and seemed to be doing all the right things and he got so deep in this mess.  

Hopefully a new owner is actually found and they keep Jay going.  I know some would prefer the "old" Jay peak, but the new toys are pretty nice and the skiing is still the same!


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 15, 2022)

JPTracker said:


> Rumor around the mountain is Jay Peak has been sold to an investment firm. Major announcement tomorrow.


Any announcement yet?


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Any announcement yet?


Haven't heard anything and surprised with the investment thing.   Last I heard only Boyne and Powder Corp were on the list.


----------



## crank (Apr 15, 2022)

I keep on opening this thread looking for news on a sale and there is never any.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 15, 2022)

Whatever multi pass jay goes too will eventually have my business.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 15, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Haven't heard anything and surprised with the investment thing.   Last I heard only Boyne and Powder Corp were on the list.


After buying Shawnee, boyne specifically said they are not in on jay this time.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 15, 2022)

Wonder if vail is trying...


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Haven't heard anything and surprised with the investment thing.   Last I heard only Boyne and Powder Corp were on the list.


Boyne has been out of the running for a while.

I would not wish POWDR on my worst enemy.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 15, 2022)

jay provides! The quality of the tree skiing today was way better than I expected it to be. Great day. Tram side is basically cooked. I hit jfk but it was probably meant to be closed. The runout is not passable without lots of walking. Valhalla and canyon land were poached. I’d recommend Valhalla if you are cool navigating a very narrow slice of Vermonter to access it

Hope the r holds off at loaf tmrw til lunchtime.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Boyne has been out of the running for a while.
> 
> I would not wish POWDR on my worst enemy.


Wish them the best but I have no more dog in this fight.  Just sold my Jay peak property and bought a house in Kicking Horse British Columbia.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Wish them the best but I have no more dog in this fight.  Just sold my Jay peak property and bought a house in Kicking Horse British Columbia.


That’s awesome!


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That’s awesome!


Been the dream for a while.  COVID made it happen a bit earlier.  Gonna miss Jay Peak.  Great mountain.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 15, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Been the dream for a while.  COVID made it happen a bit earlier.  Gonna miss Jay Peak.  Great mountain.



You moving out there full time?

Congrats


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> You moving out there full time?
> 
> Congrats


Still have to work my Montreal job for a couple of years, but will be able to work remotely during winter,  Then I move out west full time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2022)

Well, the only big news this week was Bill’s sentence.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 16, 2022)

I did say it was a rumor. I still believe Jay has been sold to an investment firm. Maybe they postponed the announcement due to Bill's sentence.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 16, 2022)

JPTracker said:


> I did say it was a rumor. I still believe Jay has been sold to an investment firm. Maybe they postponed the announcement due to Bill's sentence.


The timing would have definitely sucked for sure.   At some point they will have to sell,  for whatever the market offers.   Can't be run by the general receiver forever.


----------



## JPTracker (Apr 16, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> The timing would have definitely sucked for sure.   At some point they will have to sell,  for whatever the market offers.   Can't be run by the general receiver forever.


Rumor update:
Latest is it was down to two investment firms, they had decided on one of them but then one of the bidders who dropped out due to covid now wants to enter a  bid so everything is on hold to reconsider this third bid.


----------



## PAabe (Apr 16, 2022)

I really hope this 3rd bidder is not vail


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 17, 2022)

PAabe said:


> I really hope this 3rd bidder is not vail


"You cannot resist the force."


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 17, 2022)




----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

i dont have any inside information or anything but i am pretty sure vail was eliminated from the running here quite a long time ago, and i am fairly confident that its not vail

i'd love for it to be boyne, but will be happy with anything that keeps it independent or ikon partner status not full access. i wouldn't necessarily complain if the buyer was alterra and jay became full ikon, but i am not rooting for that outcome at all


----------



## Edd (Apr 18, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont have any inside information or anything but i am pretty sure vail was eliminated from the running here quite a long time ago, and i am fairly confident that its not vail
> 
> i'd love for it to be boyne, but will be happy with anything that keeps it independent or ikon partner status not full access. i wouldn't necessarily complain if the buyer was alterra and jay became full ikon, but i am not rooting for that outcome at all


I guess I'm not rooting for it either but you'd be a happy camper living anywhere from No. VT to Montreal with Sugarbush and Tremblant in the mix.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

Edd said:


> I guess I'm not rooting for it either but you'd be a happy camper living anywhere from No. VT to Montreal with Sugarbush and Tremblant in the mix.


The only comment I will make about Alterra buying Jay, and having it as an unlimited IKON destination, is "be careful what you wish for."


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 18, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The only comment I will make about Alterra buying Jay, and having it as an unlimited IKON destination, is "be careful what you wish for."



i hear you, but in sleepy little jay vermont i am not really all that worried. i also specifically don't wish for this outcome, but i don't fear it.

sugarbush is more accessible than jay and hasn't been overwhelmed. 

stratton is as accessible as it gets and it hasn't been _that_ bad, tho i know better than to avoid it on certain days, and to always avoid the main base area from 9:30-1 on a weekend

jay is in the middle of fucking nowhere. close to the montreal metro but I'm not too worried. 

my preference is still for ikon partner status 5/7


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 18, 2022)

Id be all in for ikon..


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2022)

Unreal.  









						Shumlin argued over escrow accounts to protect investors, former DFR commissioner says
					

As questions were raised about a missing $40 million and self-dealing at AnC Bio, the project was reinstated, Susan Donegan said in federal court.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 19, 2022)

Think ill go to jay tomorrow..looks like they got all snow today and will continue all night..
55 bucks cant go wrong


----------



## snoseek (Apr 19, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> Think ill go to jay tomorrow..looks like they got all snow today and will continue all night..
> 55 bucks cant go wrong


I just rolled the dice and bought a ticket. It could be good we'll see if the back end comes in


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 19, 2022)

Even if it doesnt its drier snow up there now.
Lets see if my only day there pays off..


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 19, 2022)

If you see a big blue slug with these skis..thats me


----------



## snoseek (Apr 19, 2022)

Kingslug20 said:


> If you see a big blue slug with these skis..thats meView attachment 54188


I'm in bitchen pink goggles find me


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 19, 2022)

Ok...


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 19, 2022)

Those skis are gorgeous


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 19, 2022)

Good to be the king.
Lol


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 19, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I'm in bitchen pink goggles find me



i also rock pink goggles. and poles. and skis. also pink flashes on a grey helmet. black, grey, and pink has been the vibe. 

i was interested in the fischer ranger 102 frs, but their pinkness sealed the deal. haven't mounted them yet. but my kastle bmx118s and my black crows corvus are also very pink. the outfit and accessories was built out around the corvus, so the skis dictated the pink, not the other way around.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 19, 2022)




----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 19, 2022)

@730pm it is all snow on 242


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Hope wind is not an issue..blowing at my house pretty good now


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Apr 20, 2022)

more than another 1/2 foot last night
fluffy   groomers out working
scratch tram-flyer   wind is up


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 20, 2022)

Of course they said they got 15”


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Arrived..snowin and blowin!


----------



## snoseek (Apr 20, 2022)

I rolled and appeared to lose. I knew the risk going in but damn that's a long haul. I'm gonna hit some epic metro laps I guess


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Im here as well..blue jacket


----------



## snoseek (Apr 20, 2022)

It's windy but not so windy the jet couldn't spin. I like how they gave up at like 930 and sent the word they aren't even gonna try today with some bs about 60 mph winds. That's a money hold and I strongly dislike areas that do this. Even vail doesn't pull that kinda stuff usually. There aren't 60mph winds on the top of jet...no way.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2022)

William Kelly, who prosecutors say tried to 'outwit' regulators, gets 18 months in prison in EB-5 fraud case￼
					

Kelly is the second of three defendants to be sentenced in the case. Bill Stenger, Jay Peak’s former president, received an 18-month prison sentence last week. Ariel Quiros, Jay Peak’s former owner, is set for sentencing next week.



					vtdigger.org
				




I don't think 18 months is enough for the guy who was Q's right-hand man.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 20, 2022)

They did that when I was at Jay with @MidnightJester 
Had it on wind hold half the day and the wind was barely blowing


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 20, 2022)

Thats why I went Killi today more redundancy


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 20, 2022)

Go and ask for your money back.  if they say no demand to talk to Steve Wright.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't think 18 months is enough for the guy who was Q's right-hand man.



Agree 100%.


----------



## SenorQuesadilla (Apr 20, 2022)

Some great woods riding if you go under the rope at top right of metro and traverse past two trails and bang a right at Bushwhacker. Had my day saved finding those and heard the same from a few groups I showed.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Not a bad day for what's open...loooooooow angle pow..


----------



## snoseek (Apr 20, 2022)

I got credit, they did me right. Can't win them all. Got a few runs.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 20, 2022)

Glad I didn’t make the 7hr round trip drive up there today. Almost did, had an alarm at 4am but slept in.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 20, 2022)

According to WCAX there is also $8.3 million in restitution.









						2nd Kingdom Con player sentenced
					

A federal judge sentenced William Kelly for his role in the scheme to defraud foreign investors in a phony Biotech firm in Newport.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 20, 2022)

Found the goods in the woods..got a full day in..Got my 50 bucks worth..


----------



## MidnightJester (Apr 20, 2022)

So I got bit by the 15" fresh snow shark in search of fresh powder at Jay and drove from Long Island, NY almost 6 1/2 hours one way 400 miles 2am till 815am and got to Jay peak and was all smiles till the wind holds were first listed to last till 12P. Took a nap till 10:45am and woke up to upper mountain lifts closed for the day Grrrrrrrr. Glad I didint use my Ski VT pass right away at JAY for lower runs. I made a emergency 1-1/2 hour trip to SugarBush and the 5" they got over 48hrs and rode from 1pm till 5pm and got in 14 runs  more mountains should have later closing times in spring maybe winter too if the Daylight saving stays spring sprung ahead

Cant say what was happening with the wind at the top but it seemed like a LACK of serious wind everywhere else on the mountain and outside the mountain.


----------



## Kingslug20 (Apr 21, 2022)

Contemplated bailing and going to SB...but it was fun to rip around on cold snow April 20..


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 27, 2022)

Mike Pieciak, financial regulation chief and key figure in Vermont’s Covid response, to resign
					

During his eight years in the Department of Financial Regulation, Pieciak helped recoup millions for the state and began investigations into the EB-5 fraud at Jay Peak.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## drjeff (Apr 29, 2022)

Q gets 5 years!









						Kingdom Con kingpin sentenced to 5 years prison
					

Ariel Quiros, the Florida businessman prosecutors say was the mastermind behind the largest fraud case in Vermont history, was sentenced in federal court in Burlington Friday to serve five years in prison.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 29, 2022)

wow, nice, that fuck


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Q gets 5 years!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the actual fuck?


----------



## djd66 (Apr 29, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> What the actual fuck?


do you think that's too harsh?


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 29, 2022)

djd66 said:


> do you think that's too harsh?


I would guess the opposite.  

Looks like 8 would have been the max, so not surprised with 5.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2022)

djd66 said:


> do you think that's too harsh?


Hell no.  Should have been 8 years.  The LARGEST fraud in Vermont history.  He has no remorse.  He was a fraud from Day 1.  He lied and used inappropriate funds to buy Jay.  He hurt my former neighbors.  It just shows that a fraudster can come to Vermont, complete pull the wool over the eyes of state regulators, make himself rich and get a slap on the wrist.


----------



## mister moose (Apr 29, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Hell no.  Should have been 8 years.  The LARGEST fraud in Vermont history.  He has no remorse.  He was a fraud from Day 1.  He lied and used inappropriate funds to buy Jay.  He hurt my former neighbors.  It just shows that a fraudster can come to Vermont, complete pull the wool over the eyes of state regulators, make himself rich and get a slap on the wrist.


I agree that it would seem to warrant closer to the maximum end of the range, but 5 years in Federal prison is a long ways from "a slap on the wrist."

(He's likely eligible for serving 85% if he doesn't do anything else, which would be 4 years 3 months.)


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2022)

I don't know, 5 years for the largest fraud case in VT history certainly seems like a slap on the wrist to me.  The average sentence for armed robbery nationally is 111 months.   Quite frankly, I think Quiros crime is a bit bigger than robbing a gas station of a few hundred bucks.

But white collar criminals tend to get off light anyways.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 29, 2022)

If some Joe Schmo from the NEK frauded people out of millions and set back the local economy by years then there would be much larger repercussions for him.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 29, 2022)

What kind of facility is he gonna go to? Is it a country club or hardened criminals? And yeah 5 years is a fucking crime in itself imo


----------



## djd66 (Apr 29, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> If some Joe Schmo from the NEK frauded people out of millions and set back the local economy by years then there would be much larger repercussions for him.


How did he set back the local economy? Am I missing something?


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 29, 2022)

djd66 said:


> How did he set back the local economy? Am I missing something?


The millions of dollars enriched him and his cronies not the NEK. An economically depressed area that desperately needs new opportunities and rejuvenation.


----------



## djd66 (Apr 29, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> The millions of dollars enriched him and his cronies not the NEK. An economically depressed area that desperately needs new opportunities and rejuvenation.


By no means am I trying to stick up for Q,… but he did not set back the local economy. He stole from immigrant investors.


----------



## ThatGuy (Apr 29, 2022)

I know that but the whole idea behind it was to help the local economy


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 29, 2022)

I guess in some ways he helped and hurt the local economy.  He is responsible for the big hole in Newport, correct?  That certainly hurts.  He's also responsible for the new hotels at Jay/Burke along with a the waterpark, hockey rink, base lodge, etc.  It was done in a shady illegal way, but that stuff brings people in, and who ever ends up with it has a nice head start for X amount on the dollar.  Just like djd66 I'm in no way defending him.  Very happy to see he'll be going away for a while.  There's a similar thing going on in the Pinball world, gives me some hope that the results will also be similar.


----------



## JoeB-Z (Apr 29, 2022)

Absolutely no remorse. He can't even bring himself to actually apologize. "“I deeply regret being involved in this case,” Quiros said". As in, he regrets getting caught.


----------



## NYDB (Apr 29, 2022)

Wait........there is a Pinball world?  and it's got financial scandals ?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2022)

What about his tool son? Junior surely had knowledge and involvement


----------



## NYDB (Apr 29, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> I know that but the whole idea behind it was to help the local economy


yeah I'm not sure what there isn't to get here.  

Stealing from foreign investors and fucking with the local economy aren't mutually exclusive.


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 29, 2022)

NYDB said:


> Wait........there is a Pinball world?  and it's got financial scandals ?


Oh yeah, pinball is hot right now.  Even worse scandal, bogus company stealing from lots of retirees and others. Company called Deeproot.  Plenty of scummy people out there for everyone's interests.


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 29, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> What about his tool son? Junior surely had knowledge and involvement


Maybe they can give him the extra 3 that dad didn't get.


----------



## Dickc (Apr 29, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> Oh yeah, pinball is hot right now.  Even worse scandal, bogus company stealing from lots of retirees and others. Company called Deeproot.  Plenty of scummy people out there for everyone's interests.


Had to go look that one up.  Here is the article I found: Link


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2022)

djd66 said:


> How did he set back the local economy? Am I missing something?


There's a giant hole in the middle of Newport, Vermont.  That's one thing.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> I guess in some ways he helped and hurt the local economy.  He is responsible for the big hole in Newport, correct?  That certainly hurts.  He's also responsible for the new hotels at Jay/Burke along with a the waterpark, hockey rink, base lodge, etc.  It was done in a shady illegal way, but that stuff brings people in, and who ever ends up with it has a nice head start for X amount on the dollar.  Just like djd66 I'm in no way defending him.  Very happy to see he'll be going away for a while.  There's a similar thing going on in the Pinball world, gives me some hope that the results will also be similar.


Jay may be sustainable.  But is Burke with a $55 million hotel?


----------



## jaytrem (Apr 29, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Jay may be sustainable.  But is Burke with a $55 million hotel?


The hotel cost the investors $55 million.  The new buyer will probably get the whole place for who knows what?  Maybe $10 million?  Same deal with the Hermitage.  The members were able to buy the whole place for about the cost of a bubble chair.  Gives the new owners a big head start, but sucks for the EB-5 investors.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 29, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> The hotel cost the investors $55 million.  The new buyer will probably get the whole place for who knows what?  Maybe $10 million?  Same deal with the Hermitage.  The members were able to buy the whole place for about the cost of a bubble chair.  Gives the new owners a big head start, but sucks for the EB-5 investors.


To operate a hotel like that would be a burden for a place like burke imo. Then again the summer crowd might even things out a bit.


----------



## machski (Apr 30, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't know, 5 years for the largest fraud case in VT history certainly seems like a slap on the wrist to me.  The average sentence for armed robbery nationally is 111 months.   Quite frankly, I think Quiros crime is a bit bigger than robbing a gas station of a few hundred bucks.
> 
> But white collar criminals tend to get off light anyways.


Yes, this was a huge fraud case.  But I don't think Q ever pulled a gun and hostilely took money from anyone.  Thus why armed robbery has a steeper penalty, it implies violence and with a lethal weapon


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 30, 2022)

machski said:


> Yes, this was a huge fraud case.  But I don't think Q ever pulled a gun and hostilely took money from anyone.  Thus why armed robbery has a steeper penalty, it implies violence and with a lethal weapon


Stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from people is quite violent in my opinion.   The disproportionate penalties are highly related to race and education levels.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 30, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from people is quite violent in my opinion.   The disproportionate penalties are highly related to race and education levels.


The victims of violent crime are also much more likely to be of the same race and education levels as the perpetrators.  If the people drafting the laws are elitist racists who are motivated by prejudice and self-interest, why aren't they imposing greater penalties on crimes they are more likely to be the victims of?  Perhaps because reasonable people of all races and education levels can agree that punishing and deterring violent crime is a better use of resources than pandering to class resentments and pretending that Quiros is a greater threat than an armed robber or other violent criminal.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from people is quite violent in my opinion.   The disproportionate penalties are highly related to race and education levels.


True, but Q is not technically Caucasian.  I think he is part Korean.  I could be wrong.

I do agree that it seemed that when foreign money is involved people don't give a shit.  That is shortsighted considering that this program "could" do some real good in areas that are disadvantaged and with industries that cannot get capital as easily.  Vermont was a good target for this and the State fucked it all up.


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 30, 2022)

Domeskier said:


> The victims of violent crime are also much more likely to be of the same race and education levels as the perpetrators.  If the people drafting the laws are elitist racists who are motivated by prejudice and self-interest, why aren't they imposing greater penalties on crimes they are more likely to be the victims of?  Perhaps because reasonable people of all races and education levels can agree that punishing and deterring violent crime is a better use of resources than pandering to class resentments and pretending that Quiros is a greater threat than an armed robber or other violent criminal.


I don't want to start a discussion on racial equality in front of the law.   A penalty is supposed to be a deterrent first and foremost. If you think 5 years is enough for stealing tens of millions, fine.  I'll just add that you can get 5 years for selling weed (a non violent crime) in many states.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> I don't want to start a discussion on racial equality in front of the law.   A penalty is supposed to be a deterrent first and foremost. If you think 5 years is enough for stealing tens of millions, fine.  I'll just add that you can get 5 years for selling weed (a non violent crime) in many states.


Again, he was a complete fraud from the get-go.  I see a stiffer sentence as serving more of a deterrent to this kind of behavior.  Especially considering his lack of remorse.  The only upside is he is old and very well may die in prison.


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## machski (May 1, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars from people is quite violent in my opinion.   The disproportionate penalties are highly related to race and education levels.


It's quite ugly and massively damaging to those taken for the ride.  That said, you are not being held up by a lethal weapon and forced to do something, as in armed robbery.  So while both are out a lot of money or possessions, how they got there is the difference and not a level comparison for penalty levels because of that.


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## jimmywilson69 (May 1, 2022)

Simply said that piece of shit should've got the maximum.  I would feel that way if it didn't involve a ski resort too.  

Otherwise what's the deterrent for people to not do it in the future...

This was a calculated fraud by Q and he eventually got Bill into it.  I don't think Bill was along for the fraud at first, and hell maybe he didn't even realize what he was into.  Eventually he got on board and he's paying for it.  Its a shame, because he generally seemed like a good guy


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## NYDB (May 2, 2022)

Stateside opening 5/7-5/8


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## chuckstah (May 2, 2022)

NYDB said:


> Stateside opening 5/7-5/8


It was deep yesterday. Everything off the top of the jet was open including the glades, as well as a handful of runs off the Bonnie.


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## AdironRider (May 4, 2022)

Did the investors end up getting green cards?


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## eatskisleep (May 4, 2022)

chuckstah said:


> It was deep yesterday. Everything off the top of the jet was open including the glades, as well as a handful of runs off the Bonnie.View attachment 54445View attachment 54446


Makes you wonder if one of the “big guys” buys Jay will they still even try for late season or will it become Cat 2.0

On the note of “white collar crime doesn’t hurt anyone” - look at all the people that lost $$ with Bernie Madoff then committed suicide… then ask, is an armed robbery of a 7-11 really that different? Yes, and no… both can have severe consequences…

There is so much fraud and corruption in this country (especially by .gov officials) that we need to start prosecuting. Please note: I haven’t followed the Jay case closely, so I don’t know if 5 years is a lot or a little for Q. I do know, Jay of 2022 looks so much different than when I first went around 2003 or so… the place has seen a transformation, I’d argue for the better, and perhaps a lot of that is due to him…


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## KustyTheKlown (May 4, 2022)

vail isnt buying jay

if alterra buys jay there is no reason to think they wont go late considering they just went to may at sugarbush

if boyne buys jay there is no reason to think they wont go late considering they just went to may at sugarloaf

what else is there for 'big guys'? powdr runs killington to memorial day.


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## JoeB-Z (May 4, 2022)

AdironRider said:


> Did the investors end up getting green cards?


Very timely question. Apparently some got green cards and some did not. I think the green cards are easier obtained if there was concrete employment and building. So earlier projects are probably in good shape and ANCbio is SOL. All are getting back some amount. In a big break for those who did not get green cards, the laws have been changed to improve their chances if they take some of the money coming back. Here's the receivers memo to the court on the topic. 


			https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/DE_718-_Receivers_Motion_Seeking_Authorization_to_Modify_Interim_Distribution_and_Supporting_Memorandum_of_Law_05-02-22.pdf
		


The receiver has done a great job putting the financial bite on anyone who benefitted. This is just interim and the investors will no doubt get more money with the sale of the ski areas.


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## JoeB-Z (May 4, 2022)

The receiver is also fighting very hard for the immigration rights of the investors. Apparently a lot have a temporary status for now. The status as of late last year is in the report attached. I'm glad their rights are being looked after. Talk about innocent victims. 



			https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/DE-699-Receiver_s-Ninth-Interim-Status-Report-10-01-21.pdf


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## bigbob (May 4, 2022)

AdironRider said:


> Did the investors end up getting green cards?


I don't believe the people who invested in Burke Mnt got green cards, maybe some did, but not all. That is why Burke is not for sale to date.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

bigbob said:


> I don't believe the people who invested in Burke Mnt got green cards, maybe some did, but not all. That is why Burke is not for sale to date.


Correct.  There are issues regarding the job creation numbers AFAIK.


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## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> The receiver is also fighting very hard for the immigration rights of the investors. Apparently a lot have a temporary status for now. The status as of late last year is in the report attached. I'm glad their rights are being looked after. Talk about innocent victims.
> 
> 
> 
> https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/DE-699-Receiver_s-Ninth-Interim-Status-Report-10-01-21.pdf


Right.  The Jay ones are in the best position.  Burke ones will get there eventually.  The AnC Bio ones are really screwed because there was never any intent to do that project.  They have nothing to show except for a vacant building site.


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## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> vail isnt buying jay
> 
> if alterra buys jay there is no reason to think they wont go late considering they just went to may at sugarbush
> 
> ...


Boyne has said they are not buying Jay.  Of course that can change.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 4, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> On the note of “white collar crime doesn’t hurt anyone” - look at all the people that lost $$ with Bernie Madoff then committed suicide… then ask, is an armed robbery of a 7-11 really that different? Yes, and no… both can have severe consequences…
> 
> There is so much fraud and corruption in this country (especially by .gov officials) that we need to start prosecuting. Please note: I haven’t followed the Jay case closely, so I don’t know if 5 years is a lot or a little for Q. I do know, Jay of 2022 looks so much different than when I first went around 2003 or so… the place has seen a transformation, I’d argue for the better, and perhaps a lot of that is due to him…


As one of the investors has said, "by that logic, one can rob a bank and as long as he uses the money to build a hospital, then everything is fine."  

Q is not the one who gets credit for Jay's improvements.  That was all Bill.  Q just stood off to the side and used it as a way to bankroll his personal projects and lifestyle.


----------



## bigbob (May 4, 2022)

The rumors that I have heard was the buyers where investment groups and not ski area operators. I wonder if the investment company that purchased Saddleback is one of the investment groups submitting bids?


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## JoeB-Z (May 4, 2022)

It is in the interest of interested parties to run down the bids.


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## Smellytele (May 5, 2022)

The owners of Breton woods would be a good choice. Marriott.


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## Edd (May 5, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> The owners of Breton woods would be a good choice. Marriott.


Looked it up but I don’t see how Omni is related to Marriott?


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## Smellytele (May 5, 2022)

Edd said:


> Looked it up but I don’t see how Omni is related to Marriott?


Oh ya Omni


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 6, 2022)

Jays website today said they may consider running the Jet next weekend weather permitting.


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## mbedle (May 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  The Jay ones are in the best position.  Burke ones will get there eventually.  The AnC Bio ones are really screwed because there was never any intent to do that project.  They have nothing to show except for a vacant building site.


The AnC Bio group either got all of their money returned or re-invested in another EB-5 project. I also believe that all of the Phase I investors have gotten their 500K back.


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## RH29 (May 12, 2022)

Jay will be closing up shop after 5/14 (Saturday). They'll have both Jet and Haynes open top to bottom, with a bit of walking likely required around the base. One of their latest closes ever, the only recorded close later than this was 5/15 in '11 (per NE Ski History). Glad to see them doing this for their passholders, and the waterpark reopens too this weekend.


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## JoeB-Z (Jun 3, 2022)

Stenger's excuses. I don't think any reasonable business person couldn't have sniffed out the ANC-Bio rat. The prospectus was laughable. https://www.vpr.org/podcast/the-frequency-daily-vermont-news/2022-06-03/i-should-have-done-something


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## thetrailboss (Jun 3, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> Stenger's excuses. I don't think any reasonable business person couldn't have sniffed out the ANC-Bio rat. The prospectus was laughable. https://www.vpr.org/podcast/the-frequency-daily-vermont-news/2022-06-03/i-should-have-done-something


I plan on listening to that.


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## RH29 (Jun 25, 2022)

Our all-knowing overlord Skiology Matt claims that Jay will be remaining an independent mountain, and that no ski companies are in the running to buy them. This should be good news for all of us, if it's actually true.


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## drjeff (Jun 25, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Our all-knowing overlord Skiology Matt claims that Jay will be remaining an independent mountain, and that no ski companies are in the running to buy them. This should be good news for all of us, if it's actually true.



Basically assures that Jay will be bought by the end of Summer then! 

Now if Stuart Winchester of The Storm Skiing Podcast said that, I might give some merit to it. Heck, in his most recent podcast drop (atleast until his next one with outgoing Alterra CEO Rusty Gregory drops in 2 more days) with Snow Operating's (Big Snow and Mountain Creek) Joe Hession, you find out that Snow Operating almost bought Jay not that long ago AND that Snow Operating was almost acquired by Peak just before Vail bought Peak.

Stuart I trust.  Skiology Matt, well a broken clock is right twice a day....


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Our all-knowing overlord Skiology Matt claims that Jay will be remaining an independent mountain, and that no ski companies are in the running to buy them. This should be good news for all of us, if it's actually true.


I have to agree.  We all know about Vail's issues.  Alterra has not been as bad but it has issues.  I think that Jay skiers and riders would not want the dysfunction of Vail or the crowds that both companies produce.


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## cdskier (Jun 25, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Our all-knowing overlord Skiology Matt claims that Jay will be remaining an independent mountain, and that no ski companies are in the running to buy them. This should be good news for all of us, if it's actually true.



Depends who it is whether it is really "good news". Someone that has no experience running a ski area isn't necessarily a good thing. It could be, but I'd be a little leery of that as well.


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## Tonyr (Jun 25, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Basically assures that Jay will be bought by the end of Summer then!
> 
> Now if Stuart Winchester of The Storm Skiing Podcast said that, I might give some merit to it. Heck, in his most recent podcast drop (atleast until his next one with outgoing Alterra CEO Rusty Gregory drops in 2 more days) with Snow Operating's (Big Snow and Mountain Creek) Joe Hession, you find out that Snow Operating almost bought Jay not that long ago AND that Snow Operating was almost acquired by Peak just before Vail bought Peak.
> 
> Stuart I trust.  Skiology Matt, well a broken clock is right twice a day....


Means to me that it costs way too much with all of the real estate involved to be profitable for prospective buyers so the state of Vermont is stuck with it.


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## fbrissette (Jun 26, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> Means to me that it costs way too much with all of the real estate involved to be profitable for prospective buyers so the state of Vermont is stuck with it.


The general receiver's job IS to sell Jay Peak to refund EB5 investors.   

Somehow,  it will have to be sold, even if it is to be run as an independent resort.  The status quo is not a sustainable solution.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> Means to me that it costs way too much with all of the real estate involved to be profitable for prospective buyers so the state of Vermont is stuck with it.


It’s the Feds.  Not the State.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> The general receiver's job IS to sell Jay Peak to refund EB5 investors.
> 
> Somehow,  it will have to be sold, even if it is to be run as an independent resort.  The status quo is not a sustainable solution.


Exactly.  A receiver appointed by the Federal Court.


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## Tonyr (Jun 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> It’s the Feds.  Not the State.


Good to know, the Fed doesn't usually hold distressed assets very long.


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## JoeB-Z (Jun 26, 2022)

This is from last October but it explains the sales process the receiver is taking. The receiver's fees have mounted to $10M. Of course he has squeezed a lot of money out of the entangled other than the sale of the resorts. At some point the sale is all that is left. Even with COVID it will need to resolved sooner rather than later. The bilked EB-5 investors are entitled to whatever can be recovered as soon as possible. https://vtdigger.org/2021/10/12/sev...ivers-bill-for-eb-5-cleanup-nears-10-million/


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 26, 2022)

On Stuart's podcast Rusty Gregory used the word unusual to describe Jay. He essentially said Alterra is not interested in running the water park and softball tournament businesses.


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## Smellytele (Jun 26, 2022)

Softball? Or hockey?


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## fbrissette (Jun 26, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Softball? Or hockey?


Hockey and soccer tournaments.  Although I guess you could play softball on the two soccer fields they built.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 27, 2022)

Rusty said Softball.


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## fbrissette (Jun 27, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Rusty said Softball.


Rusty should do his homework better then.    This is obviously not my field, but I compeltely fail to see how running a waterpark (and whatever tournaments)  would be a problem,   Isn't profitability the only issue ?   

Tremblant runs ziplines, summer sleds, a mini-golf and a shitload of other activities, and I believe the resort is actually more profitable in the summer than in winter.  I fail to see Rusty's logic.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 27, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Rusty should do his homework better then.    This is obviously not my field, but I compeltely fail to see how running a waterpark (and whatever tournaments)  would be a problem,   Isn't profitability the only issue ?
> 
> Tremblant runs ziplines, summer sleds, a mini-golf and a shitload of other activities, and I believe the resort is actually more profitable in the summer than in winter.  I fail to see Rusty's logic.


The fact no one has bought Burke or Jay for multiple years suggest profitability is also an issue.


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## fbrissette (Jun 27, 2022)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The fact no one has bought Burke or Jay for multiple years suggest profitability is also an issue.


My understanding is that profitability (at least for Jay Peak) is not as much the issue as the Generla Receiver's expected sales price.


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## crank (Jun 27, 2022)

Goldberg said something a few years back to the effect that Burke had a ways to go and needed to become profitable in order to pay EB5 investors before a sale.  

Burke becoming profitable?  How does that happen?


I figure there are probably no major players really interested in Jay.  None of them move this slowly.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Jun 27, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Rusty should do his homework better then.    This is obviously not my field, but I compeltely fail to see how running a waterpark (and whatever tournaments)  would be a problem,   Isn't profitability the only issue ?
> 
> Tremblant runs ziplines, summer sleds, a mini-golf and a shitload of other activities, and I believe the resort is actually more profitable in the summer than in winter.  I fail to see Rusty's logic.



I would argue that all of those Tremblant activities are pretty much par for the course for summer ops in the ski industry.  All things that Alterra has experience running. The waterpark and hockey/soccer tournament business is a pretty big step outside/beyond that, and I have no concerns with them defining their business model/expertise in a way that excludes those businesses.  Depending on who buys Jay, there is still a decent chance it winds up on the IKON pass anyway, so they could potentially have their cake and eat it too.


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## ss20 (Jun 27, 2022)

crank said:


> Goldberg said something a few years back to the effect that Burke had a ways to go and needed to become profitable in order to pay EB5 investors before a sale.
> 
> Burke becoming profitable?  How does that happen?
> 
> ...



I'd bet if the lower quad at Burke was a fixed grip that'd help the bottom line.  The resort operates too few of days and sees too few skier visits to warrant 2 hsq's.  And of course, that abomination of a hotel must lose money 90% of the year.  

Jay needs a lot of work for the on-mountain infrastructure that doesn't see a huge ROI.  The tram is a money sink.  The Bonnie needs to be a 6pack.  Snowmaking needs improvement.  I wouldn't touch it either, especially since Vail and Alterra already have a good chunk of the Northeast in their portfolios.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jun 27, 2022)

is it an abomination bc they spent a lot of bamboozled money on a hotel that was bound to mostly sit empty? or is it shitty inside? it looks nice from the outside.


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## ss20 (Jun 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> is it an abomination bc they spent a lot of bamboozled money on a hotel that was bound to mostly sit empty? or is it shitty inside? it looks nice from the outside.



Sits empty.


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## urungus (Jun 28, 2022)

JoeB-Z said:


> This is from last October but it explains the sales process the receiver is taking. The receiver's fees have mounted to $10M. Of course he has squeezed a lot of money out of the entangled other than the sale of the resorts.



There appears to be no end to people enriching themselves from this.  How many more years until the receivers fees exceed the eventual sale price, LOL


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## drjeff (Jun 28, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> is it an abomination bc they spent a lot of bamboozled money on a hotel that was bound to mostly sit empty? or is it shitty inside? it looks nice from the outside.



Is it Fourseaons/Ritz Carlton nice inside? Nope. Is It a well above average hotel compared to the offerings across the majority of Northeast ski country? From the couple of times I have stayed there when my kids had races at Burke, yes.

Plus the view out the windows from the dining area on a clear day of the Willoughby (?sp) Gap in the distance is impressive. Would make for a nice location for a wedding reception for sure


----------



## crank (Jun 28, 2022)

We spent a few days/nights there when they first opened. They were running a very low priced promotional rate and it was the week between Christmas and NYE.  And we got a foot of fresh snow so all was good!

Nice place.  Only complaint we had was a weird one.  The patio area in back was heated so no ice, except for the ramp up to the hot tub where there was a freaking treacherous, slippery AF, inclined walkway that had us death gripping the railing.

I have since checked back a few times looking for another sweet deal but high prices abound.  Anyways, nowadays I feel obligated to get as much bang as possible out of my Ikon pass.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jun 28, 2022)

yea, i love how it frames willoughby gap, but i haven't stayed there myself. generally cheaping it up in lyndon when I'm in the area.


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## machski (Jun 28, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I'd bet if the lower quad at Burke was a fixed grip that'd help the bottom line.  The resort operates too few of days and sees too few skier visits to warrant 2 hsq's.  And of course, that abomination of a hotel must lose money 90% of the year.
> 
> Jay needs a lot of work for the on-mountain infrastructure that doesn't see a huge ROI.  The tram is a money sink.  The Bonnie needs to be a 6pack.  Snowmaking needs improvement.  I wouldn't touch it either, especially since Vail and Alterra already have a good chunk of the Northeast in their portfolios.


The problem with your idea is the lower HSQ makes for an outstanding learning pod as is.  Sure they might save some on operations, but that is the older of the two HSQs and likely has been almost amortized out.  Why would they sink more capital into a new FGQ prior to a sale?  That doesn't make any accounting sense, especially to downgrade am asset.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 28, 2022)

machski said:


> The problem with your idea is the lower HSQ makes for an outstanding learning pod as is.  Sure they might save some on operations, but that is the older of the two HSQs and likely has been almost amortized out.  Why would they sink more capital into a new FGQ prior to a sale?  That doesn't make any accounting sense, especially to downgrade am asset.



Not saying they would take it out, but it was overkill when they put it in, JMO.  It's a super short ride.  And as you know the maintenance costs are many multiples more than that of a FGQ and a lifespan of half a FGQ.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> Good to know, the Fed doesn't usually hold distressed assets very long.


In this case it has been six years.  Seems like a long time.


----------



## machski (Jun 28, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Not saying they would take it out, but it was overkill when they put it in, JMO.  It's a super short ride.  And as you know the maintenance costs are many multiples more than that of a FGQ and a lifespan of half a FGQ.


Don't disagree then, however carpet loading chairs weren't really a thing yet for FG when this particular HSQ went in.  Was a bit weird with a HSQ there and just FG serving the main mountain for sure.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 28, 2022)

Plus that lower HSQ definitely makes the mtn bike loading operations much easier during bike park season. And there's a bunch of trails and features on that part of the mountain and the draw to the area of the amazing Kingdom Trails network


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I'd bet if the lower quad at Burke was a fixed grip that'd help the bottom line.  The resort operates too few of days and sees too few skier visits to warrant 2 hsq's.  And of course, that abomination of a hotel must lose money 90% of the year.
> 
> Jay needs a lot of work for the on-mountain infrastructure that doesn't see a huge ROI.  The tram is a money sink.  The Bonnie needs to be a 6pack.  Snowmaking needs improvement.  I wouldn't touch it either, especially since Vail and Alterra already have a good chunk of the Northeast in their portfolios.


So as to Burke's lower HSQ, the thinking in 2005 was that was the older lift and also a gateway lift for many.  The last ten years or so they run it in the summer and fall for biking.  It sees more traffic than you think.  It is what it is.

As to MidBurke, that deal was a bit more complicated as I understand it.  A friend of the mountain and a renewable energy grant (hence the wind turbine) cut the cost.  This was installed before Q took over.  The thinking was also to entice a buyer.

The Hotel is doing better than you would think.  They've attracted a lot of meetings, weddings, and group events.  They also regularly fill up for biking.  Remember, with Kingdom Trails, the Spring-Summer-Fall are busier than winter.  Are they making money hand-over-fist?  Probably not.  I will have to review the Receiver's reports.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2022)

machski said:


> Don't disagree then, however carpet loading chairs weren't really a thing yet for FG when this particular HSQ went in.  Was a bit weird with a HSQ there and just FG serving the main mountain for sure.


I think their intent was to replace both but either because of manufacturing issues, money, or time they only did the Sherburne.  After the first season Ginn saw that they were losing tons of money running it as they were (they were WAY overstaffed) and cut back.  A lot.  The rest we know was history.  Ginn was a big loser in the 2007-2008 meltdown.


----------



## Zand (Jun 29, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> generally cheaping it up in lyndon when I'm in the area.


Dare I ask which Lyndonville motel(s) you've dared stay at?

Other then spending a decent dime on the Comfort Inn in St J, I'm not sure what else is even livable up there these days. Parents used to stay at the Lynburke (which is gone now, kind of a shithole but marginally acceptable for human habitiation) and the Fairbanks Inn in St J (which used to be fine but...read up on what they've done with that place the last 2 years). The only other two are the Colonnade (I spent a lot of time in the halls and studios of News 7 during my time up there and they had some INTERESTING death investigations at that place) and the Lyndon Motor Lodge which used to have some shithole bar out front and otherwise was known to be a big drug den. I'm not even sure that place is still open, never really saw cars there.

Last year on my Jay trip I really wanted to stay in the NEK but Burke was charging $225 (on weekdays in mid March...no thanks), the St J Comfort Inn was charging $185, and every other place I can think of I listed above but would never stay at. So just ended up staying in St Albans.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2022)

Zand said:


> Dare I ask which Lyndonville motel(s) you've dared stay at?
> 
> Other then spending a decent dime on the Comfort Inn in St J, I'm not sure what else is even livable up there these days. Parents used to stay at the Lynburke (which is gone now, kind of a shithole but marginally acceptable for human habitiation) and the Fairbanks Inn in St J (which used to be fine but...read up on what they've done with that place the last 2 years). The only other two are the Colonnade (I spent a lot of time in the halls and studios of News 7 during my time up there and they had some INTERESTING death investigations at that place) and the Lyndon Motor Lodge which used to have some shithole bar out front and otherwise was known to be a big drug den. I'm not even sure that place is still open, never really saw cars there.
> 
> Last year on my Jay trip I really wanted to stay in the NEK but Burke was charging $225 (on weekdays in mid March...no thanks), the St J Comfort Inn was charging $185, and every other place I can think of I listed above but would never stay at. So just ended up staying in St Albans.


There are other options that are pricier.  Wildflower, Mountain View, etc.


----------



## Zand (Jun 29, 2022)

Haha I'm guessing "cheaping it up in Lyndon" doesn't include the Wildflower. Which is more of a B&B anyway, plenty of those to go around in VT but also pricey.

I think this is another reason I like Killington. Lots of cheap places right on the access road that aren't luxurious by any means, but not quite "Rutland Rodeway Inn" bad either. Chalet Killington is my new haunt. Used to stay at the Hillside but Killington bought them out for employee housing. Used to not mind the Snow Lake Lodge at Mt Snow either, but that's also no longer for the public.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2022)

Zand said:


> Haha I'm guessing "cheaping it up in Lyndon" doesn't include the Wildflower. Which is more of a B&B anyway, plenty of those to go around in VT but also pricey.
> 
> I think this is another reason I like Killington. Lots of cheap places right on the access road that aren't luxurious by any means, but not quite "Rutland Rodeway Inn" bad either. Chalet Killington is my new haunt. Used to stay at the Hillside but Killington bought them out for employee housing. Used to not mind the Snow Lake Lodge at Mt Snow either, but that's also no longer for the public.


It is too bad that the former budget accommodations in the Lyndon/St. Jay area have really fallen apart.  The LynBurke is no more as you know.  Days Inn/Colonnade is pretty worn.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 29, 2022)

I did stay at the Colannade once about 5yrs ago... Not as nice by any means as the Burke Mtn Hotel, but it did the job for the 3 nights me and my daughter were there when she was racing in the VT U14 state Championships that year. Granted the most I remember about that trip was taking out a deer on I-91 about 15 miles South of Lyndonville about 9 at night in the dark (fortunately for me, but not the deer, when I "only" took its head off and turned it into paté when I hit it with the cruise control set at 75, my air bags didn't go off and it basically just took out my passenger side lower valance, and fog light), but I do remember more having cocktails with racer parent friends and coaches  (many of whom actually were able to get a room at the Burke mtn hotel since their kids qualified for states weeks before my daughter did that year) than the actual hotel room/amenities! 

The one thing you get to experience as a ski Rafer parent, if your kid can qualify for various state/New England/Highschool Championships, is some interesting at times, last minute hotel bookings in the prime time of late February through until roughly St Patrick's Day weekend!

Of the 3 Burke, 1 Stowe, 1 Sugarbush, 1 Middlebury Snowbowl, 1 Stratton, 3 Gunstock, 1 Cannon and 1 Attitash events like that I have been to with both of my kids to date, the Colannade and Clear River Inn (stayed there for Middlebury even though it's closer to Killington) were per my now 18yr old daughter, the "sketchiest" places we stated at. The Burke Mtn Hotel and thus past March at the Eastern Highschool Championships at Attitash when we stayed at The North Conway Grand Hotel, were the nicest in her view


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## KustyTheKlown (Jun 30, 2022)

yep, collanade when im in that area


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## thebigo (Jun 30, 2022)

Is VT champs at burke every year or does it move around the state?


drjeff said:


> I did stay at the Colannade once about 5yrs ago... Not as nice by any means as the Burke Mtn Hotel, but it did the job for the 3 nights me and my daughter were there when she was racing in the VT U14 state Championships that year. Granted the most I remember about that trip was taking out a deer on I-91 about 15 miles South of Lyndonville about 9 at night in the dark (fortunately for me, but not the deer, when I "only" took its head off and turned it into paté when I hit it with the cruise control set at 75, my air bags didn't go off and it basically just took out my passenger side lower valance, and fog light), but I do remember more having cocktails with racer parent friends and coaches  (many of whom actually were able to get a room at the Burke mtn hotel since their kids qualified for states weeks before my daughter did that year) than the actual hotel room/amenities!
> 
> The one thing you get to experience as a ski Rafer parent, if your kid can qualify for various state/New England/Highschool Championships, is some interesting at times, last minute hotel bookings in the prime time of late February through until roughly St Patrick's Day weekend!
> 
> Of the 3 Burke, 1 Stowe, 1 Sugarbush, 1 Middlebury Snowbowl, 1 Stratton, 3 Gunstock, 1 Cannon and 1 Attitash events like that I have been to with both of my kids to date, the Colannade and Clear River Inn (stayed there for Middlebury even though it's closer to Killington) were per my now 18yr old daughter, the "sketchiest" places we stated at. The Burke Mtn Hotel and thus past March at the Eastern Highschool Championships at Attitash when we stayed at The North Conway Grand Hotel, were the nicest in her view


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## drjeff (Jun 30, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Is VT champs at burke every year or does it move around the state?


Burke generally hosts one of the age group state championships each year.   Stowe, Stratton, Okemo, Sugarbush, Middlebury Snowbowl and Pico as well were the hosts during my kids state championship times.  

Up until a couple of years ago VARA would have the boys and girls U14 states at the same mountain at the same time, and U16's were boys at 1 mountain and girls at a different one.  Then they started recently spliting up the U14's as well


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## thebigo (Jun 30, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Burke generally hosts one of the age group state championships each year.   Stowe, Stratton, Okemo, Sugarbush, Middlebury Snowbowl and Pico as well were the hosts during my kids state championship times.
> 
> Up until a couple of years ago VARA would have the boys and girls U14 states at the same mountain at the same time, and U16's were boys at 1 mountain and girls at a different one.  Then they started recently spliting up the U14's as well


NHARA champs was at Mitty this year, figured it was every year but may be wrong. Going to have a U8 and U12 this year with a wife that occasionally and unpredictably works weekends. Logistics may be more of a challenge than the actual skiing. Splitting girls/boys champs is nuts. Have friends with boy/girl twins on U12 next year, what are they supposed to do?


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## drjeff (Jun 30, 2022)

thebigo said:


> NHARA champs was at Mitty this year, figured it was every year but may be wrong. Going to have a U8 and U12 this year with a wife that occasionally and unpredictably works weekends. Logistics may be more of a challenge than the actual skiing. Splitting girls/boys champs is nuts. Have friends with boy/girl twins on U12 next year, what are they supposed to do?


The way that VARA did the last couple of years when my 2 were U16's and went to states, was that the boys were held 1 weekend (or more often either a Friday-Sunday or Saturday through Monday) and then the girls the following weekend.  And VARA and the host club for states DEFINITELY put on a big show for the athletes at states, that they enjoyed.  It was definetly a noticable step up from the regular season long council races. The change that VARA did with splitting the U14 girls and boys championships up into 2 events happened after my youngest moved out of U14's and up to U16's.  There were definitely some plusses and minuses when they went to the split championships so who knows if they will keep it that way or go back to both at the same time

And may your U12 this year qualify for what is the de facto U12 Eastern Championships, the Piche's Invitational that Gunstock hosts every year in Mid March.  That was still one of the coolest events, both for parents and the athletes that my kids went to (My daughter went as a 2nd year U12 and my son went as a 1st year U14 - it's not as big an event for the U14's as it is the U12's)


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## crank (Jun 30, 2022)

Wildflower has a building across the street that is very much motelish and was reasonable when we stayed there during prime leaf peeping season about 4 years ago.  WIfe does not want to revisit because we learned that the owners won't do weddings because they couldn't do weddings and not do gay/lesbian weddings.

Used to stay a a cheap divey motel in Newport a long time ago.  Also the old Snowline up on 242 right before Jay's access road.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jun 30, 2022)

crank said:


> Wildflower has a building across the street that is very much motelish and was reasonable when we stayed there during prime leaf peeping season about 4 years ago.  WIfe does not want to revisit because we learned that the owners won't do weddings because they couldn't do weddings and not do gay/lesbian weddings.
> 
> Used to stay a a cheap divey motel in Newport a long time ago.  Also the old Snowline up on 242 right before Jay's access road.



speaking of asshole hotels... we are going to see phil lesh at bethel in august, and i booked a nice kinda bougie expensive place, and also a backup for less money. i did a little research on the back-up today, and its a tire fire. enjoy these links. specifically the facebook post of today, then the one of october 2020, and then the two recent trip advisor reviews. i've canceled the reservation. bougie $350/night hotel it is. 









						Catskill Mountains Resort
					

Catskill Mountains Resort, Barryville, New York. 5,169 likes · 1 talking about this. Welcome to the Catskill Mountains Resort.   Luxury Lodging,  Bar, Entertainment, Full Service Wedding and Event...




					www.facebook.com
				












						CATSKILL MOUNTAINS RESORT - Updated 2022 Prices &  Hotel Reviews (Barryville, NY)
					

Book Catskill Mountains Resort, Barryville on Tripadvisor: See 92 traveler reviews, 36 candid photos, and great deals for Catskill Mountains Resort, ranked #1 of 4 B&Bs / inns in Barryville and rated 4.5 of 5 at Tripadvisor.




					www.tripadvisor.com


----------



## cdskier (Jun 30, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> speaking of asshole hotels... we are going to see phil lesh at bethel in august, and i booked a nice kinda bougie expensive place, and also a backup for less money. i did a little research on the back-up today, and its a tire fire. enjoy these links. specifically the facebook post of today, then the one of october 2020, and then the two recent trip advisor reviews. i've canceled the reservation. bougie $350/night hotel it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I never realized Bethel is that close to Barryville. My parents have a vacation home in the Poconos about 15-20 minutes from Barryville. Never even remotely crossed my mind that Bethel was around there. For some reason in my mind I always thought it was closer to the NY Thruway and further north.


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## Smellytele (Jun 30, 2022)

Heading to bethel tomorrow for dead and co. Staying in Middletown


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## deadheadskier (Jun 30, 2022)

I'm seeing Fake Bobby in Hampton tomorrow night.  Haha


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 1, 2022)

Dead and Slow. Bring a pillow 

Have fun!


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## crank (Jul 1, 2022)

lol.  Recently read an interview with Joe Russo and he was talking about when he used to play with Phil and Bobby,  Bob would tell him to slow the tempo and Phil would be telling him to play faster.

Saw DSO recently phakes were really good.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jul 1, 2022)

crank said:


> lol.  Recently read an interview with Joe Russo and he was talking about when he used to play with Phil and Bobby,  Bob would tell him to slow the tempo and Phil would be telling him to play faster.
> 
> Saw DSO recently phakes were really good.



errr i've got access to free vip everything for JRAD at peach fest in scranton tonight, but my girlfriend is away and i am on cat duty. he's a senior dude who eats wet food so i can really only leave him with the chilled-auto-feeder for about 12 hours, and going to scranton and back in one night sounds like a bit much. was more into the whole take acid and drank 8 beers kinda night. will prob pass. that's ok tho.

JRAD is my favorite dead project, easily, hands down, without a doubt
phil preferred over dead & co as far as original member projects are concerned

i met phil at SFO in the midst of a nearly 24 hour flight delay clusterfuck and he could not have been nicer


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## Zand (Jul 6, 2022)

Have to wonder if these people were staying at the aforementioned Fairbanks Inn.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 6, 2022)

Zand said:


> Have to wonder if these people were staying at the aforementioned Fairbanks Inn.


No.  WCAX reported that 2 of the 3 involved came from Lyndonville.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2022)

Gov. Scott offers assistance for Kingdom Con ‘pit’ in Newport
					

Seven years after a huge hole was created in downtown Newport, there may be progress toward filling it.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## snoseek (Aug 1, 2022)

I just got home from work, poured a drink and opened facebook to see that pacific sealed a deal. Ragged stock just went way the fuck up.


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## Zand (Aug 1, 2022)

Thank you baby Jesus it's not Vail.

I've still never been to Ragged for some reason, but from the outside it seems like the owners have made some good improvements there so I'd think this is great news for Jay.


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## snoseek (Aug 1, 2022)

Zand said:


> Thank you baby Jesus it's not Vail.
> 
> I've still never been to Ragged for some reason, but from the outside it seems like the owners have made some good improvements there so I'd think this is great news for Jay.


I skied ragged quite a bit a couple years back and powderhorn a bunch both pre and post pacific and they do great work. No epic no ikon is the real win for locals imo.


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## Zand (Aug 1, 2022)

Actually would be nice if Ragged took a page out of Jay's book and hopped on the Indy Pass. That would definitely get me to stop in. Always been interested in those glades.


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## NYDB (Aug 1, 2022)

do they have the capital for major lift improvements at Jay?


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## snoseek (Aug 1, 2022)

I wonder if they go on the same pass? Ragged early buy is pretty cheap. I can't see jay unlimited dropping that much.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 1, 2022)

weird little portfolo - "PRG owns and operates five other North American ski areas: Ragged Mountain, New Hampshire; Wisp, Maryland; Wintergreen, Virginia; Powderhorn, Colorado; and Mount Washington Alpine, British Columbia. Jay Peak would instantly become the company’s flagship resort."

im glad it wasnt alterra, but i wouldnt be against an ikon partner relationship. 









						CORRECTION: Pacific Resorts Group Enters Asset Purchase Agreement to Purchase Jay Peak
					

Receiver will still accept additional bids




					www.stormskiing.com


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## thetrailboss (Aug 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I just got home from work, poured a drink and opened facebook to see that pacific sealed a deal. Ragged stock just went way the fuck up.


Can you post a link?  I am not seeing it.


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## snoseek (Aug 1, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> weird little portfolo - "PRG owns and operates five other North American ski areas: Ragged Mountain, New Hampshire; Wisp, Maryland; Wintergreen, Virginia; Powderhorn, Colorado; and Mount Washington Alpine, British Columbia. Jay Peak would instantly become the company’s flagship resort."
> 
> im glad it wasnt alterra, but i wouldnt be against an ikon partner relationship.
> 
> ...


That link reads like it's not a done deal.

I'm assuming you carry an ikon in saying that. I bet die hard jay skiers would rather not. I don't ski there enough to really know maybe a couple days a year.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> That link reads like it's not a done deal.
> 
> I'm assuming you carry an ikon in saying that. I bet die hard jay skiers would rather not. I don't ski there enough to really know maybe a couple days a year.



yea, i am a loyal ikon customer. i just dont think jay would feel too much of a slam from ikon partnership. its so fucking remote. could increase canadians i guess. either way, glad its on indy for now.


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## Keelhauled (Aug 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> That link reads like it's not a done deal.


Well you have to assume everyone's kicked the tires by now, presumably this was the best offer made.


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## cdskier (Aug 1, 2022)

What was the original price the receiver was expecting/hoping to get? I feel like $58M is way below the original number floated around from probably a few years ago at this point...


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## snoseek (Aug 1, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> Well you have to assume everyone's kicked the tires by now, presumably this was the best offer made.


I honestly thought boyne would have purchased as it would geographically spread them out and made for a compelling pass. Either way I hope it stays on indypass


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## bigbob (Aug 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Can you post a link?  I am not seeing it.











						Pacific Group Resorts Enters Asset Purchase Agreement for Jay Peak
					

Receiver will still accept additional bids




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## downdraft (Aug 1, 2022)

The "corrected" article from Storm Skiing Journal describes the PRG agreement as a "stalking horse" bid, which would mean that the agreement with the receiver is intended to serve as an opening bid in an auction process. This is common in bankruptcy and receivership proceedings and the stalking horse bidder normally receives some compensation if a higher bidder purchases the assets. So, this would be intended as the beginning of an auction sale process, not the end. (Nonetheless, PRG could ultimately still acquire Jay.)


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## JPTracker (Aug 1, 2022)

Here's the long read:



			https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/726.pdf


----------



## machski (Aug 1, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I skied ragged quite a bit a couple years back and powderhorn a bunch both pre and post pacific and they do great work. No epic no ikon is the real win for locals imo.


Not a done deal and this lower opener bid could open the flood gates to Alterra or Vail bidding in amongst others.


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## Smellytele (Aug 1, 2022)

My concern with the ragged owners is they have been saying they were going to add another peak for how long now?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 1, 2022)

Pacific Group Resorts Bids $58 Million for Jay Peak
					

The Jay Peak Receiver today filed a motion to enter a sale agreement with Pacific Group Resorts, Inc., a Park City-based operator of five North American ski areas. Importantly, the proposed sale pr…




					liftblog.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 1, 2022)

$58 mill seems awful low.


----------



## Tonyr (Aug 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> $58 mill seems awful low.


If I remember correctly Jay wanted somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 to 200 mill originally which included the real estate as well.


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## rebel1916 (Aug 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, i am a loyal ikon customer. i just dont think jay would feel too much of a slam from ikon partnership. its so fucking remote. could increase canadians i guess. either way, glad its on indy for now.


it's not remote at all.  It's under 2 hours from Montreal.  It is basically Hunter for Quebecers.  Except closer.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My concern with the ragged owners is they have been saying they were going to add another peak for how long now?



Not as long as Jay has talked about the West Bowl!   Sounds like a good marriage.


----------



## Edd (Aug 2, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I wonder if they go on the same pass? Ragged early buy is pretty cheap. I can't see jay unlimited dropping that much.


Really good question. The current pass gives unlimited access at Ragged, Powderhorn, and Wisp, Wintergreen with blackout days, and 7 unrestricted days at Mt. Washington in BC. The relative closeness of Jay would need to be addressed. Jay being what it is, a more expensive pass is going to have to be created.


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## bigbob (Aug 2, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> $58 mill seems awful low.


How much was invested in Jay with hotels, waterparks, etc? Seems like pennies on the dollar.


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## mbedle (Aug 2, 2022)

bigbob said:


> How much was invested in Jay with hotels, waterparks, etc? Seems like pennies on the dollar.


282 million for all the Jay Peak projects


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## machski (Aug 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Not as long as Jay has talked about the West Bowl!   Sounds like a good marriage.


Of course, Jay could not use EB-5 $$ for on hill improvements/expansion as it would not create enough long term jobs.  Oh wait, that system worked so well for all the base lodges etc.....


----------



## drjeff (Aug 2, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> If I remember correctly Jay wanted somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 to 200 mill originally which included the real estate as well.


The longer it sits in receivership, the more realistic the price gets to what the real number actually is, verses what the full investor recoup dream figure was.  Remember that little caveat we often glance right over in the disclosure about making an investment and there being a risk of loss of the investment money and that not all investments appreciate in value over time?   

Still though seems that even if some other group outbids Pacific for Jay before an actual deal closes, that if the final price is either what the currend bid is, or not that much above it, unless there's some funky "Bobby Bonilla" type clause in it (Google Mets Bobby Bonilla Day if you don't get the reference ) thatthe new owner will be getting a good deal, and one thta likely will allow them to run a profitable entity


----------



## mbedle (Aug 2, 2022)

Does anyone have any idea how much money is currently in escrow to buyout the Jay Peak investors?


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 2, 2022)

Any investor knows that some serious money needs to be spent on the mountain itself.  All of these new hotels are great, but nothing was done to the mountain itself.

No matter how you slice it, EB-5 proved to be a good way to waste millions of dollars.  It's nice that Jay Peak got some improvements, but these investors are going to take a nasty haircut.

The town tax coffers are also going to take a hit.  From the article: _Jay Peak was valued on the town grand list at $121 million. Resort officials later appealed, arguing that its actual value was about half that amount. In a settlement, the town and resort settled at an assessed value of about $85 million._


----------



## ss20 (Aug 2, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> Any investor knows that some serious money needs to be spent on the mountain itself.  All of these new hotels are great, but nothing was done to the mountain itself.



That's my concern as well.  As @Smellytele said, Ragged has had trails cut on Pinnacle for 10 years now without any further advancement.  That's a pretty major red flag- not just financially but leadership as well.  To sink the costs of planning, approval, and trail cutting, without evidently never having enough capital to finish the job with a lift, snowmaking, and grading.... well that's just a bad look and shows management may be one to bite off more than they can chew.  

Yeah, Jay needs a ton of high-capital projects.  A detachable replacement for bonnie, a ton of snowmaking improvements, and a replacement for the Flyer all need to be undertaken in the next 10 years.  While still running the money sink of a tram.  Hopefully they can manage, I wish them the best.


----------



## slatham (Aug 2, 2022)

ss20 said:


> That's my concern as well.  As @Smellytele said, Ragged has had trails cut on Pinnacle for 10 years now without any further advancement.  That's a pretty major red flag- not just financially but leadership as well.  To sink the costs of planning, approval, and trail cutting, without evidently never having enough capital to finish the job with a lift, snowmaking, and grading.... well that's just a bad look and shows management may be one to bite off more than they can chew.
> 
> Yeah, Jay needs a ton of high-capital projects.  A detachable replacement for bonnie, a ton of snowmaking improvements, and a replacement for the Flyer all need to be undertaken in the next 10 years.  While still running the money sink of a tram.  Hopefully they can manage, I wish them the best.


First off, not sure if current ownership was involved in that initial trail cutting.

But on a storm skiing  pod cast, the GM made no commitment. Further, he noted the difficulty of having separate pods requiring a lift in each to run to access. During the week there is not the demand, yet it’s difficult to shut down a full pod. The new terrain in question is yet another separate pod requiring the lift to run to access. From a daily operations standpoint, not cost effective.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 2, 2022)

slatham said:


> First off, not sure if current ownership was involved in that initial trail cutting.
> 
> But on a storm skiing  pod cast, the GM made no commitment. Further, he noted the difficulty of having separate pods requiring a lift in each to run to access. During the week there is not the demand, yet it’s difficult to shut down a full pod. The new terrain in question is yet another separate pod requiring the lift to run to access. From a daily operations standpoint, not cost effective.



Same ownership as today cut the trails.  As to it not being cost-effective.... those numbers should've been run before cutting trails, imo.  It's just a weird chapter in a mountain that has done quite well in the past 10 years and is gaining something of a cult following among the local community and beyond.


----------



## tumbler (Aug 2, 2022)

If the offer is real I think that it will partner with Ikon.  They are in business to make money, not cater to locals.  They could also sub out mountain operations to a 3rd party if this is more than they can handle.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Not as long as Jay has talked about the West Bowl!   Sounds like a good marriage.


I believe the west bow expansion was put on hold by Vermont until the streams were remediated.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 2, 2022)

ss20 said:


> Same ownership as today cut the trails.  As to it not being cost-effective.... those numbers should've been run before cutting trails, imo.  It's just a weird chapter in a mountain that has done quite well in the past 10 years and is gaining something of a cult following among the local community and beyond.


I believe that expansion was put on hold due to the downturn in the economy and a decision to expand snowmaking was more important at the time. This was taken from a resume of a person that worked on this expansion project:

*Ragged Mountain Resort Expansion, RMR Pacific, LLC. Danbury, NH (2008-Present).*
Normandeau provided natural resource delineation and comprehensive evaluation of environmental effects of Ragged’s proposed expansion of its ski terrain, snowmaking capacity, residential units and golf course. Normandeau also helped Ragged negotiate a mitigation solution and provided permit applications for a major permit from the NH DES Wetlands Bureau and an Individual Permit from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Section 404. Both regulatory agencies agreed to issue a 10-year permit, based on detailed design for the early phases of the project and master-plan level design on later phases. On-going work includes expanded impact areas and _*permit amendments as the economic environment shifts,*_ with proposed modifications to ski and golf areas, and *snow-making water supply and storage issues.* Project Manager.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2022)

ss20 said:


> That's my concern as well.  As @Smellytele said, Ragged has had trails cut on Pinnacle for 10 years now without any further advancement.  That's a pretty major red flag- not just financially but leadership as well.  To sink the costs of planning, approval, and trail cutting, without evidently never having enough capital to finish the job with a lift, snowmaking, and grading.... well that's just a bad look and shows management may be one to bite off more than they can chew.
> 
> Yeah, Jay needs a ton of high-capital projects.  A detachable replacement for bonnie, a ton of snowmaking improvements, and a replacement for the Flyer all need to be undertaken in the next 10 years.  While still running the money sink of a tram.  Hopefully they can manage, I wish them the best.



Pretty certain Ragged was counting on EB5 money to do the Pinnacle expansion.  Once that program fell apart, the investment was less appealing and it was abandoned.

Personally, I'm glad they didn't finish it up and it's growing back in.  From what I could tell, the trail designs were quite lame.  Very wide and mostly straight.


----------



## machski (Aug 2, 2022)

mbedle said:


> I believe the west bow expansion was put on hold by Vermont until the streams were remediated.


Actually, I believe the stream issue was why the Powerline 6 never went in and the Bonne had to be shortened and the terminal moved up for the Stateside Lodge/Hotel.  The West Side expansion I thought was to coincide with the real estate offering over there that also got left on paper.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 2, 2022)

machski said:


> Actually, I believe the stream issue was why the Powerline 6 never went in and the Bonne had to be shortened and the terminal moved up for the Stateside Lodge/Hotel.  The West Side expansion I thought was to coincide with the real estate offering over there that also got left on paper.


You may be right, I just remember the state putting a stop to further develop due to sedimentation issues in the streams on the property.


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## Smellytele (Aug 2, 2022)

Merge all 3 Jay peak threads into this original one.


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## cdskier (Aug 2, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Merge all 3 Jay peak threads into this original one.



Yup...not sure why 2 new Jay Peak threads had to be created when we already had an existing one going...


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2022)

New forum software doesn't have a merge feature


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 2, 2022)

delete the other two? 

megathreads for each resort 4lyfe


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## cdskier (Aug 2, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> New forum software doesn't have a merge feature



Maybe you don't have the rights for some reason? XenForo supports that functionality (at least in the current version...).


----------



## thebigo (Aug 2, 2022)

Other than pinnacle not much discussion on who actually is Pacific and how they operate. Following is a rambling summary, sources as necessary.

Current leadership:


> VERN GRECO
> President/CEO
> 
> Relevant Background
> ...



Resume:


> Greco has been president and general manager of Park City Mountain Resort since 1998 and guided the company through the Olympics as well as a successful re-positioning to capture the youth market with nationally-acclaimed terrain parks.
> 
> Prior to joining Powdr Corporation and Park City Mountain Resort Greco was president and CEO of Durango Mountain Resort, formerly Purgatory Resort, and before that, president and CEO of Steamboat.



Pacific acquired Ragged in 2007. Pacific acquired Wisp in 2012. Greco joined Pacific in 2013. Development on pinnacle ceased around the time or shortly after Greco joined Pacific. Spear HSDQ was installed in 2014. Ragged claims a 5X snowmaking capacity increase in 2015. Mission affordable launched at Ragged in 2016.

2015 lease on Wintergreen acquired. Later in 2015 lease to operate mount Washington BC acquired. 2016 Washington purchased. 2018 lease to operate powderhorn acquired. 2021 Wisp and Wintergreen purchased. 2023 lift planned at powderhorn. Every property was distressed at the time of purchase, several in bankruptcy.

Very rambling interview with Greco: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jefffr...catalyst-for-positive-change/?sh=4b6f6d0a5350

Excerpts:


> As an example, almost every ski area has a lift maintenance department and that same ski area will have a vehicle maintenance department. Those guys are pretty seasonal with maintenance guys, you know, seasonal, vehicle maintenance, because we've got a lot of rolling stock during the winter, not nearly as much rolling stock in the summertime. ... I’d really like to create a smaller but more high powered group of almost hybrid jobs, super jobs where that group of maintenance people can work all the way across the platform for us. And when I say that, it's very easy, would not be wrong for somebody to say, "Oh look, you're just looking to cram down on your head count again. All you're trying to do is reduce some labor costs." But to tell you the real true objective isn't solely to reduce that labor cost, but to create a better place to work, a place that attracts a higher quality team member, somebody who makes a greater contribution to that team. As a result of making that greater contribution to the team, they can be better compensated. Ultimately, it leads to better retention, higher job satisfaction, and a culture that I think can be infused with positive energy.



A few personal observations from a year at ragged following our liberation from vail:


They blow a massive amount of snow but do not resurface. They blow deep and then use the groomers to repair freeze/thaw. They use rented air that is gone after early February.
They start grooming at sunrise. They would much prefer to put several machines on a trail than risk a freeze after grooming, it shows in the surface. Without question ragged recovers from a freeze/thaw better than anyone in new england.
They seem to retain employees and use foreign labor well.

Edit - one more point, anyone thinking they are going to get an unlimited ragged/jay pass for <$400 is out of their mind. Take a look at Wintergreen, they do not sell an unlimited pass. Mission affordable is blacked out 16 days, passholders are offered a $59 day pass. I have no idea how this works for race families.

Second edit - I don't remember the timing, was greco still running PCMR when the lease payment was missed?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Maybe you don't have the rights for some reason? XenForo supports that functionality (at least in the current version...).


 Could be.  Maybe Nick will pop in in six months to merge the threads.  Haha


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## abc (Aug 2, 2022)

I hate long running threads. Can't possibly find any useful information in the jumbo even if my life depends on it. If I want to post and forget what I've ever written, I'd post it on Facebook.  

Let those other threads live. 

Besides, how else can BM1 get a thread of his own to continue his monologue?


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## Smellytele (Aug 2, 2022)

abc said:


> I hate long running threads. Can't possibly find any useful information in the jumbo even if my life depends on it. If I want to post and forget what I've ever written, I'd post it on Facebook.
> 
> Let those other threads live.
> 
> Besides, how else can BM1 get a thread of his own to continue his monologue?


Wow just saw his post in that other thread. Didn’t read it but can only imagine.
I agree on long threads but in this case all Jay stuff is all about the same thing.


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## JPTracker (Aug 4, 2022)

Court approved the sale. On to the Auction phase:



			https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/DE_727_-_Order_Approving_Sale_of_Jay_Peak_Resort_and_Setting_Deadlines-Hearing_08-04-22.pdf


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## JoeB-Z (Aug 4, 2022)

JPTracker said:


> Court approved the sale. On to the Auction phase:
> 
> 
> 
> https://jaypeakreceivership.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/DE_727_-_Order_Approving_Sale_of_Jay_Peak_Resort_and_Setting_Deadlines-Hearing_08-04-22.pdf


Any other bidder's now have 30 days to make a higher offer. If that happens then an auction two day later. Labor Day figures in there but by early September, this could be a done deal.


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## IceEidolon (Aug 4, 2022)

The big Wintergreen snowmaking expansion - including the big water tank, lots of TA Low E guns, and nearly full automation - predates Pacific. Wisp snowmaking used to be a showcase of automation (SMI built an incredible control room, pumphouse, etc.) but the on-hill infrastructure hasn't been properly maintained. They have electrical gremlins and just generally don't get the resources to fully build out the snowmaking the way it ought to be, though some new TA guns - not who I'd buy from if I have trouble getting money for spare parts, but whatever - have showed up. 
Ragged has kind of a similar story - their automation was designed poorly and isn't well used in the limited areas it's present in. 

I don't trust Pacific to make real snowmaking improvements in the near term. Lifts seem okay, snowmaking not so much.


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## thebigo (Aug 17, 2022)

not sure if this was posted but we should have more info next week:



> 7.  A final hearing to consider approval of the sale of the Jay Peak Resort is scheduled for August 26, 2022 at 11:00 a.m.


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## Abubob (Aug 17, 2022)

ss20 said:


> That's my concern as well.  As @Smellytele said, Ragged has had trails cut on Pinnacle for 10 years now without any further advancement.  That's a pretty major red flag- not just financially but leadership as well.  To sink the costs of planning, approval, and trail cutting, without evidently never having enough capital to finish the job with a lift, snowmaking, and grading.... well that's just a bad look and shows management may be one to bite off more than they can chew.
> 
> Yeah, Jay needs a ton of high-capital projects.  A detachable replacement for bonnie, a ton of snowmaking improvements, and a replacement for the Flyer all need to be undertaken in the next 10 years.  While still running the money sink of a tram.  Hopefully they can manage, I wish them the best.


I agree with dhs. I think the Pinnacle Peak development was a bridge too far. Since then, however, Ragged has done a tremendous job of upgrading the mountain. They got the dead Spear Triple running for several years before replacing with the HSQ. They've continually upgrade the snowmaking and grooming. None of this was done all at once, mind you, but one step at a time. So bit by bit the area has grown back strong. And it seems all using local talent. My hope is they would do the same for Jay.


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## xlr8r (Aug 17, 2022)

Abubob said:


> I agree with dhs. I think the Pinnacle Peak development was a bridge too far. Since then, however, Ragged has done a tremendous job of upgrading the mountain. They got the dead Spear Triple running for several years before replacing with the HSQ. They've continually upgrade the snowmaking and grooming. None of this was done all at once, mind you, but one step at a time. So bit by bit the area has grown back strong. And it seems all using local talent. My hope is they would do the same for Jay.


I think they profited off of the logging of the Pinnacle Peak Trails.  That is why they did it so early without ever finishing it


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## thetrailboss (Aug 19, 2022)

So....which of you are going to attend the hearing in a week and throw your bid in on Jay?


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## Newpylong (Aug 19, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> The big Wintergreen snowmaking expansion - including the big water tank, lots of TA Low E guns, and nearly full automation - predates Pacific. Wisp snowmaking used to be a showcase of automation (SMI built an incredible control room, pumphouse, etc.) but the on-hill infrastructure hasn't been properly maintained. They have electrical gremlins and just generally don't get the resources to fully build out the snowmaking the way it ought to be, though some new TA guns - not who I'd buy from if I have trouble getting money for spare parts, but whatever - have showed up.
> Ragged has kind of a similar story - their automation was designed poorly and isn't well used in the limited areas it's present in.
> 
> I don't trust Pacific to make real snowmaking improvements in the near term. Lifts seem okay, snowmaking not so much.


Pacific operates far differently than Vail or Boyne in that their properties are so geographically disperse that there is no resource sharing. So if there is a vote of no confidence to make snowmaking improvements it has to do with local management, not Pacific in general. Their mountains eat what they catch.


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## Newpylong (Aug 19, 2022)

ss20 said:


> That's my concern as well.  As @Smellytele said, Ragged has had trails cut on Pinnacle for 10 years now without any further advancement.  That's a pretty major red flag- not just financially but leadership as well.  To sink the costs of planning, approval, and trail cutting, without evidently never having enough capital to finish the job with a lift, snowmaking, and grading.... well that's just a bad look and shows management may be one to bite off more than they can chew.
> 
> Yeah, Jay needs a ton of high-capital projects.  A detachable replacement for bonnie, a ton of snowmaking improvements, and a replacement for the Flyer all need to be undertaken in the next 10 years.  While still running the money sink of a tram.  Hopefully they can manage, I wish them the best.


What sunk costs? What approval process? In NH on private land you apply for your timber tax permit then you pay it after you're done cutting. They have done nothing beyond that. They felt they weren't too far off from kicking the project off and decided to get some logging in. Not much more to it than that. If you go ride there you won't hear anyone say, "boy it's too bad they started that; wish they'd finish". It's more a "meh, if it happens it happens, this place is special hopefully nothing changes anytime soon".


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## Smellytele (Aug 19, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> What sunk costs? What approval process? In NH on private land you apply for your timber tax permit then you pay it after you're done cutting. They have done nothing beyond that. They felt they weren't too far off from kicking the project off and decided to get some logging in. Not much more to it than that. If you go ride there you won't hear anyone say, "boy it's too bad they started that; wish they'd finish". It's more a "meh, if it happens it happens, this place is special hopefully nothing changes anytime soon".


Low expectations


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## Newpylong (Aug 19, 2022)

Lower than low, no one cares...

For ~$350 a year they can keep on truckin' as is.


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## thebigo (Aug 19, 2022)

> Steve Wright, Jay Peak’s general manager, said there has been a “pretty sharp increase” in interest since news of Pacific Group Resorts' initial bid of $58 million had been reported earlier this month.





> “There are multiple potential (and incremental) bidders at this point, but not at liberty to really disclose specifics at this point,” Wright said in an emailed response to VTDigger’s inquiry.





> “As of the filing of this Motion, the Receiver believes that a competing bid may be submitted for the Jay Peak Resort,” the filing stated, adding that the deadline set for competing bids is Sept. 2.
> 
> “If a competing bid is submitted, the Receiver intends on conducting the Auction on September 7, 2022,” the filing stated.











						New possible bidder may delay hearing on sale of Jay Peak resort
					

Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed receiver overseeing the Northeast Kingdom ski resort, did not disclose the identity of the new bidder, though one Jay Peak official noted a “pretty sharp increase” in interest since news of an initial $58 million bid was reported earlier this month.



					vtdigger.org


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## slatham (Aug 20, 2022)

Apparently all those firms that had “no interest” in Jay Peak were assuming a price much higher than $58mm.

Like the saying goes, everyone has a price.


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## machski (Aug 20, 2022)

slatham said:


> Apparently all those firms that had “no interest” in Jay Peak were assuming a price much higher than $58mm.
> 
> Like the saying goes, everyone has a price.


And prior to, the sales phase was not imminent as it is now.  It's either pony up soon or let it go....


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 22, 2022)

not surprised that someone is gonna scoop in just please for the love of everything dont be vail. alterra, boyne, powdr, all fine.


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## St Stephen (Aug 22, 2022)

No Ski company behemoths please
Hoping it stays Indy with current management team and employees


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## Zand (Aug 22, 2022)

Pacific could always increase their bid too. $58 million seemed way too low but it has to start somewhere.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 22, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> not surprised that someone is gonna scoop in just please for the love of everything dont be vail. alterra, boyne, powdr, all fine.


Boyne has said that they are not in the running.  Unless that changed.....


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## PAabe (Aug 22, 2022)

Knocking on wood here but Jay is really in the middle of nowhere and not really on your average coastal skier's radar.  It isn't really "ready to roll" for Vail's required capacity, unlike other places they have bought.  Half the place is glades which Vail doesn't seem to have an affinity for.  And while there is lodging, it isn't as many rooms as most of the non local destinitation places they targeted to snatch up (excluding package deals like Wildcat/Peaks).  It just doesn't seem like le Epic style unless they're trying to capture the Montreal market which is still a little dicey with the border crossing.  Plus they already bought several new areas for this year and are spending a tremendous amount on new lifts, as well as increased operating costs over last year with the pay rate.

It would be beyond tragic if they somehow conjured cash out of thin air to snatch it up like they did last year when we all thought they couldn't possibly buy any more ski areas.  My hope is that she's just too weird of a ski area for Vail.


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## skef (Aug 24, 2022)

PAabe said:


> It would be beyond tragic if they somehow conjured cash out of thin air to snatch it up like they did last year when we all thought they couldn't possibly buy any more ski areas.


If I'm reading this right, they've got north of a billion dollars in cash/cash equivalents:


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## drjeff (Aug 24, 2022)

skef said:


> If I'm reading this right, they've got north of a billion dollars in cash/cash equivalents:
> View attachment 54699


That 1.2 BILLION of cash on hand in their balance sheet has been widely reported over the last few months. Guessing that number has decaresed a bit now due to paying out some of the capital projects they've been working on this Summer, but if their Epic Pass Product ssles have been as strong as also has been reported, then hopes that some seem to have of them being finacially insolvent and going under seem to be just a pipedream right now


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 24, 2022)

Have they paid off the Peaks acquisition? Or is that amortized over 20-30 years?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 24, 2022)

drjeff said:


> That 1.2 BILLION of cash on hand in their balance sheet has been widely reported over the last few months. Guessing that number has decaresed a bit now due to paying out some of the capital projects they've been working on this Summer, but if their Epic Pass Product ssles have been as strong as also has been reported, then hopes that some seem to have of them being finacially insolvent and going under seem to be just a pipedream right now


Well......remember that they raised some capital near the end of 2020 in order to get through the difficulty posed by COVID.  I believe that constitutes a good amount of that $1 billion that is sitting there.  I believe that their plan was to get some more cash on hand because things were so crazy.  I believe someone in here pointed this out when they were doing it.  I don't think that amount is all "profit" from Epic.


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## JimG. (Aug 24, 2022)

It's gonna suck for a lot of skiers when Fail goes bust.


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## machski (Aug 25, 2022)

JimG. said:


> It's gonna suck for a lot of skiers when Fail goes bust.


More than that, the entire industry and probably the State of Colorado too given their size there.


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## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2022)

machski said:


> More than that, the entire industry and probably the State of Colorado too given their size there.


There will be someone else there to pick up the pieces.


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## RichT (Aug 25, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> There will be someone else there to pick up the pieces.


Musk!


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## snoseek (Aug 25, 2022)

RichT said:


> Musk!


No. He sucks but he probably knows better to get in the ski industry.


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## skef (Aug 25, 2022)

JimG. said:


> It's gonna suck for a lot of skiers when Fail goes bust.


Looks like FY 2025 is gonna be *lit*!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 25, 2022)

skef said:


> Looks like FY 2025 is gonna be *lit*!
> View attachment 54703


Yet another reason why Katz disappeared......


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## gittist (Aug 26, 2022)

RichT said:


> Musk!


nah..probably someone from either China or India.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 26, 2022)

Was today the day of the auction?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 26, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Was today the day of the auction?


The Receiver postponed it a couple weeks based upon other potential bidders.


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## JPTracker (Aug 27, 2022)

From VTDigger:

https://vtdigger.org/2022/08/19/new-possible-bidder-may-delay-hearing-on-sale-of-jay-peak-resort/



> “As of the filing of this Motion, the Receiver believes that a competing bid may be submitted for the Jay Peak Resort,” the filing stated, adding that the deadline set for competing bids is Sept. 2.
> 
> 
> “If a competing bid is submitted, the Receiver intends on conducting the Auction on September 7, 2022,” the filing stated.


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## ctdubl07 (Aug 27, 2022)

Funny...I think it was Thursday morning and I caught Charlie Baron in a lengthy interview on "Before the Bell" and he was touting his 5 most recent big buys which included Tesla and Vail.....


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## crank (Aug 27, 2022)

So who believes there are really competing bidders?


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## ss20 (Aug 27, 2022)

crank said:


> So who believes there are really competing bidders?



Me.  One accountant and one lawyer in the Alterra and Vail corporate offices is all it would take to jack up the price for Pacific group and probably delay their ownership by a season or two.  Shady but not out of the question given the scope of this purchase.  The longer it stays in receivership the longer Jay remains the status quo and falls further behind the competition.  And the more Pacific pays for it the less $$$ they have for the sorely needed CapEx improvements.

My black helicopter post of the day, LOL.


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## Harvey (Aug 28, 2022)

skef said:


> Looks like FY 2025 is gonna be *lit*!
> View attachment 54703


$1.5B?  A big number, enough to put the hurt on Vail? I think they are a $9B market cap, or how do you answer that question?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> $58 mill seems awful low.



I think $58M is in the ballpark based on what little we know of their operations; maybe something like $60M - $75M is what I'd guess.  As I said at the time, them wanting like ~$125M was bat**** crazy.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2022)

skef said:


> Looks like FY 2025 is gonna be *lit*!
> View attachment 54703



Expect a press release within a year stating that significant 2025 maturities have been rolled to a later year, but at a higher interest rate.  And the beat goes on......


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 31, 2022)

crank said:


> So who believes there are really competing bidders?


 
Put me down for, _"after substantial discussions_ (with a company that wont be named)_, no competing bids emerged"._


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

Maybe so maybe not...


Its still hard for me to understand why vail or altera wouldn't want in on this place.  I guess the numbers, which none of us know, really must be closer to year 2000 Jay Peak than 2022 Jay Peak with all of its shiny, corruptly acquired toys.


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## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

Vail and Alterra are in the ski business not hospitality.  The waterpark, hotels probably make it not as desirable because they would have to mange it themselves (not what they do) or pay a third party to manage it.  It's a well known mountain on this forum but joe sixpack skier has not heard of it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

I would argue that vail is very much in the hospitality business based on the beds and "amenities" they own at their flag ship western resorts.  Altera is in the same boat but not as much. 

I get what your saying about Jay Peak really being known to their supposed "core" demographic.  My guess is the Jay Peak season pass numbers and their potential zip code locations or whatever they call it in Canada aren't enticing enough to think that the investment, even as low as $58 million, wouldn't pad their bottom line/stock price.


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## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

True on hospitality at their big western resorts but Jay in the middle of nowhere.  I don't think Vail owns any of the lodging at Stowe?


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

IHG didn't' sell the lodging at Spruce Peak just the Stowe Ski Operations and associated equipment/leases


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## mbedle (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> True on hospitality at their big western resorts but Jay in the middle of nowhere.  I don't think Vail owns any of the lodging at Stowe?


The only lodging they own at Stowe is the hotel down at toll house, which is used for employee housing.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> IHG didn't' sell the lodging at Spruce Peak just the Stowe Ski Operations and associated equipment/leases


I think it was AIG.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Vail and Alterra are in the ski business not hospitality.  The waterpark, hotels probably make it not as desirable because they would have to mange it themselves (not what they do) or pay a third party to manage it.  It's a well known mountain on this forum but joe sixpack skier has not heard of it.


Agree about those operators being ski focused. However, look closely at Alterra and you will see a lot of real estate development planned and coming on line.

Disagree about general knowledge of Jay.  They historically market A LOT.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Put me down for, _"after substantial discussions_ (with a company that wont be named)_, no competing bids emerged"._


$58 mill seems damn low considering how much coin was invested.

That must reflect lower revenue than expected.  But I don’t think 2020-2022 were normal years for Jay by any stretch of the imagination.


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## thebigo (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Jay in the middle of nowhere


People need to stop thinking Jay is remote. Jay is roughly a couple hour drive from Montreal. Metro Montreal has around four million people, metro Boston has around five million people. Do people think Loon is remote?


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## machski (Sep 1, 2022)

I think a big turnoff for many of the big ski operators with Jay is all the ancillary business they are now involved in.  The hockey tournaments at the ice rink, the smer soccer tournaments on the pitches they have, the water park.  All of that is outside the scope of all of the big ski operators.  Now, the Golf Course and hotels are not and would be of some interest.  But there are risks involved.  You buy Jay for big $$ and the first year is a poor snow year, you could be in a world of hurt since their snowmaking system is so substandard for a resort their size in the NE.  Then you have an aging primary lift system and a state permitting process that can be infuriatingly difficult to impossible to work within, it is easier to see why ski operators have passed.


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## machski (Sep 1, 2022)

thebigo said:


> People need to stop thinking Jay is remote. Jay is roughly a couple hour drive from Montreal. Metro Montreal has around four million people, metro Boston has around five million people. Do people think Loon is remote?


The only thing with the cross border to your big ski base is the exchange rate.  Another potential turnoff to buyers as a Canadian dollar only gets you 81 cents USD currently.  Jay as long as I can remember has taken the shave and accepted CAD at par for Canadian residents.  If a new buyer decides to end that deal, will Canadians continue to come?


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it was AIG.


oops yeah AIG.  I was booking a hotel for work and IHG was on my mind!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

machski said:


> The only thing with the cross border to your big ski base is the exchange rate.  Another potential turnoff to buyers as a Canadian dollar only gets you 81 cents USD currently.  Jay as long as I can remember has taken the shave and accepted CAD at par for Canadian residents.  If a new buyer decides to end that deal, will Canadians continue to come?



montrealers are also like 60 minutes or less from the laurentians. jay is proximate to Montreal but i still think the border, the exchange rate, and the availability of skiing in the laurentians, the townships, and near QC is a huge deterrent to going to vermont


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> oops yeah AIG.  I was booking a hotel for work and IHG was on my mind!


No worries.  Yeah, for some reason I think AIG has (or had at one time) deeper pockets than IHG.  And AIG's founder had a deep personal connection with Stowe that has endured well beyond his death.


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## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

thebigo said:


> People need to stop thinking Jay is remote. Jay is roughly a couple hour drive from Montreal. Metro Montreal has around four million people, metro Boston has around five million people. Do people think Loon is remote?


A 2.5 hour drive is different that a 4+ hour drive.  Yes, many people in Boston don't consider driving almost to Canada for the weekend.


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## tumbler (Sep 1, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree about those operators being ski focused. However, look closely at Alterra and you will see a lot of real estate development planned and coming on line.
> 
> Disagree about general knowledge of Jay.  They historically market A LOT.


No they really don't market much in the Boston area.


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## cdskier (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> No they really don't market much in the Boston area.


They certainly don't market much in the NJ/NY area either (not a surprise considering how far they are from this market). Still though I really wouldn't at all be surprised if your earlier comment is right that Jay isn't that well known among the more general casual skier population.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

stratton advertises heavily in nyc. all over the subway and bus system. 

epic pass advertises on tv here. 

i don't see any ads for any independent skiing around here at all.


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## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2022)

Jay is closer to Boston than sugarloaf is and sugarloaf has a lot of mass skiers.


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## ThatGuy (Sep 1, 2022)

tumbler said:


> A 2.5 hour drive is different that a 4+ hour drive.  Yes, many people in Boston don't consider driving almost to Canada for the weekend.


Hes saying that the drive from Boston to Loon is comparable to the drive from Montreal to Jay…


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## Edd (Sep 1, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Jay is closer to Boston than sugarloaf is and sugarloaf has a lot of mass skiers.


Yeah, but Loaf has strong SR ties, and if you have that pass….Saddleback isn’t much farther but much smaller numbers than Loaf.


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## Smellytele (Sep 1, 2022)

Edd said:


> Yeah, but Loaf has strong SR ties, and if you have that pass….Saddleback isn’t much farther but much smaller numbers than Loaf.


So what are you trying to say?
Burke is close to Jay and smuggs is with in an hour as well.


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## Edd (Sep 2, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> So what are you trying to say?
> Burke is close to Jay and smuggs is with in an hour as well.


I’m saying SR is an enormous draw for Boston skiers and if they buy the pass to ski there, Loaf isn’t much farther. Burke doesn’t help Jay draw anything to talk about I assume. As for Smuggs, it  may as well be on the moon and doesn’t share a pass anyway.


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## bigbob (Sep 2, 2022)

thebigo said:


> People need to stop thinking Jay is remote. Jay is roughly a couple hour drive from Montreal. Metro Montreal has around four million people, metro Boston has around five million people. Do people think Loon is remote?


I think we live closer to Montreal and Quebec City than NYC!


----------



## Harvey (Sep 2, 2022)

During Covid, with the border closed, it was remote to half of customers and unreachable to the other half.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Sep 3, 2022)

Well, we'll soon find out Jay's destiny and this thread can be mercifully buried. RIP
IMO Jay does not easily fit into a tidy box like other ski areas, thankfully. Hopefully that will help in who buys the mountain.
Over the years there has been a steady migration of skiers here to Jay that have had their fill of standard fare and want to expand their ski experience.
Many like myself wind up staying.
This site seems divided between those wanting more "stuff" and those who accept the "Jay foibles"  for challenging, ungroomed steep in bounds terrain, sometimes world class powder and a genuine, authentic welcoming vibe.  I say choose the path that suits you best and enjoy.

As this new chapter of Jay eventually unfolds, it is important to mention some key people who have had a role in creating and making Jay what it is, in a semi-chronological order:
The Gilpin brothers; Father St Onge; Perry Merrill, Harold Haynes; Don McNally; Walter Foeger; Bill Stenger and Steve Wright.
I'm not a buddy of Steve's but he rightfully deserves IMO outsized credit for steering Jaypeak through some mighty challenging seas.

Bring on the winter!
V/R
Longboardr


----------



## urungus (Sep 3, 2022)

Deadline for competing bids was yesterday (Sept 2), should be hearing something soon.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2022)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Well, we'll soon find out Jay's destiny and this thread can be mercifully buried. RIP
> IMO Jay does not easily fit into a tidy box like other ski areas, thankfully. Hopefully that will help in who buys the mountain.
> Over the years there has been a steady migration of skiers here to Jay that have had their fill of standard fare and want to expand their ski experience.
> Many like myself wind up staying.
> ...


A nice tribute to some Jay legends.  But you left out the real stars, former owners and the next Bond villains, Big and Little Q, seen here getting to work on their next criminal enterprise.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2022)

I'm still surprised he only got 5 years given the massive scope of the fraud & the significant damages caused.  No idea when he's eligible for parole, but if it's in only 2 or 3 years & he gets out early the entire thing's a mockery.


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 4, 2022)

White collar criminals usually get off easy.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm still surprised he only got 5 years given the massive scope of the fraud & the significant damages caused.  No idea when he's eligible for parole, but if it's in only 2 or 3 years & he gets out early the entire thing's a mockery.


Exactly.  I am pretty pissed.  

The fact that Shumlin got a pass is also pretty bad.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Sep 4, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> A nice tribute to some Jay legends.  But you left out the real stars, former owners and the next Bond villains, Big and Little Q, seen here getting to work on their next criminal enterprise.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 54727


I find it deliciously ironic that Quiros senior was a prison guard in the Army, now on the other side of the bars.
Karma Baby!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2022)

LONGBOARDR said:


> I find it deliciously ironic that Quiros senior was a prison guard in the Army, now on the other side of the bars.
> Karma Baby!


Well, the other news is that the Receiver has had to sell some trail and feature names to raise some cash.  Starting this season, we will have some great new names such as:

* The Jail Triple
* The Boondoggle Quad
* Ponzi Plunge
* Lost Green Card
* Con Am
* Bankruptcy Pond Glade
* Poor House Waterpark
* The AnC Bio First Aid Building
* The first Tram Tower will now be Trump Tower
* The Heist
* Fraudway

And many others.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 5, 2022)

Stuart Winchester of the Storm Skiing Journal reported tonight that there are 3 groups bidding in the auction this Wednesday


----------



## bigbob (Sep 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Stuart Winchester of the Storm Skiing Journal reported tonight that there are 3 groups bidding in the auction this Wednesday











						Jay Peak Auction Set for Wednesday, Sept. 7 – At Least 3 Bidders Will Participate
					

“It's highly likely that ... we'll know a lot more about our future ownership structure after Wednesday of this week” - Jay Peak General Manager Steve Wright, in a memo to staff




					www.stormskiing.com


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Stuart Winchester of the Storm Skiing Journal reported tonight that there are 3 groups bidding in the auction this Wednesday


Interesting.  Pacific and who else?  Any guesses?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 6, 2022)

who really could be in this market?

Vail
Altera
Boyne
Powder
Some Rich dude who just won the lottery?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> who really could be in this market?
> 
> Vail
> Altera
> ...


Well, Boyne has "previously said" that they are not interested in Jay.  But that could change.

There, apparently, were a lot of investment funds that were interested in the real estate. 

Vail is too big, whether they admit that or not remains to be seen.  They can't operate and manage what they have. 

Alterra went big at the start and are now not in a buying mood from what I see.  But then again that could change.  They have a lot of $$$ floating around.  It makes sense for them because they own Tremblant, so another reason for the Montreal market to go IKON but, then again, it siphons off business from their Montreal Market Resort (Tremblant). 

I would not wish POWDR on my worst enemy.  John has his a piece of his Dad's estate, but he, too, has a lot of balls in the air.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> who really could be in this market?
> 
> Vail
> Altera
> ...


MSS? MCP? Fairbanks? Crowleys? This person? https://www.mynbc5.com/article/vermont-powerball-winner-middlebury-jolley/40526800#

Could be anyone, nobody saw Pacific coming. As someone invested in Ragged for the next decade, I just hope they dont get in a bidding war, take the seven figure breakup fee and move on.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

thebigo said:


> MSS? MCP? Fairbanks? Crowleys? This person? https://www.mynbc5.com/article/vermont-powerball-winner-middlebury-jolley/40526800#
> 
> Could be anyone, nobody saw Pacific coming. As someone invested in Ragged for the next decade, I just hope they dont get in a bidding war, take the seven figure breakup fee and move on.


I don't know if a break up fee would apply here as this is an auction and they submitted a bid that has yet to be really "accepted."


----------



## thebigo (Sep 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't know if a break up fee would apply here as this is an auction and they submitted a bid that has yet to be really "accepted."



From Lift Blog:



> Should another buyer prevail, Pacific Group would be paid a breakup fee of $1.25 million plus expenses from the sale proceeds.











						Pacific Group Resorts Bids $58 Million for Jay Peak
					

The Jay Peak Receiver today filed a motion to enter a sale agreement with Pacific Group Resorts, Inc., a Park City-based operator of five North American ski areas. Importantly, the proposed sale pr…




					liftblog.com


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 6, 2022)

Count me also in for wanting them to be outbid quickly and leaving it at that.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

thebigo said:


> From Lift Blog:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting.  I guess that was meant to encourage (good faith) bids.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 6, 2022)

so if they decided to pull their bid would they need to pay $1.25 Million?  Its sort of odd if they lose they get paid $1.25 Million


----------



## cdskier (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> so if they decided to pull their bid would they need to pay $1.25 Million?  Its sort of odd if they lose they get paid $1.25 Million



What would be the point of them pulling their bid? If they don't want to pay more than they originally offered, just don't put in a higher bid and walk away with the $1.25M breakup fee for being outbid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> so if they decided to pull their bid would they need to pay $1.25 Million?  Its sort of odd if they lose they get paid $1.25 Million


That is what Paragraph 26 of the Motion says. I think it is meant as a way to pay for the costs associated with Pacific's bid (time spent on investigating, sourcing funds, hiring lawyers and professionals to make up a deal, etc.)  There are some contingencies though to get said break up fee that have to be met though.


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 6, 2022)

Another possibility is KSL Resorts directly. They're in PA with Blue and Camelback, they're not short on cash as far as I know, and they're already directly and indirectly competing with their own Alterra money. Jay is already a resort destination, which is their bread and butter.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 6, 2022)

Interesting  angle


----------



## downdraft (Sep 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> That is what Paragraph 26 of the Motion says. I think it is meant as a way to pay for the costs associated with Pacific's bid (time spent on investigating, sourcing funds, hiring lawyers and professionals to make up a deal, etc.)  There are some contingencies though to get said break up fee that have to be met though.


This - the breakup fee to Pacific is intended to cover costs and act as an incentive to set the opening price when making the stalking horse bid.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 6, 2022)

Supposedly minutes from a 2019 meeting:



> “The first one is Alterra, they possibly have the funds, second is FoSun (privately owned), third is Pacific Group, fourth is two different groups Snow Operating and a fund called Oz, fifth is AWH (privately owned). He (Elander) stated Vail showed no interest in Jay Peak.”
> 
> – Walter Elander











						Sports News Today | Breaking Headlines | Updated December 17 2022
					

Sports News Now provides breaking headlines for all major sporting categories, directly to your inbox. Subscribe and get the best content.




					sports-news-now.com


----------



## cdskier (Sep 6, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Supposedly minutes from a 2019 meeting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course who was interested in 2019 has little bearing on who is interested 3 years later and now that the starting price may be lower than previously expected...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2022)

IceEidolon said:


> Another possibility is KSL Resorts directly. They're in PA with Blue and Camelback, they're not short on cash as far as I know, and they're already directly and indirectly competing with their own Alterra money. Jay is already a resort destination, which is their bread and butter.


KSL is Alterra from what I understand.  I believe that it was folded into the Alterra entity.  This would be the first time that I have heard that KSL is still an independent going entity. But then again the Aspen Ski Company is a separate going entity from Alterra.

If not, it is a part owner of Alterra (with the Crown family).


----------



## cdskier (Sep 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> KSL is Alterra from what I understand.  I believe that it was folded into the Alterra entity.  This would be the first time that I have heard that KSL is still an independent going entity. But then again the Aspen Ski Company is a separate going entity from Alterra.
> 
> If not, it is a part owner of Alterra (with the Crown family).



KSL is definitely still separate. Alterra is just one of the things they're invested in... https://www.kslcapital.com/investments

Edit...in the northeast alone they own/manage a couple resorts separately from Alterra - Camelback and Blue in PA being 2 notable ones.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 6, 2022)

Per an update from the Storm Skiing Podcast, it is confirmed that snow operators (the Big Snow operating group) WON'T be on of the 3 groups bidding.

And the initial bidding process will be in increments of 1.175 million dollars starting via Zoom or similar platform at 11AM.

Should in theory know by early afternoon tomorrow who the new owners of Jay are


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 7, 2022)

My immediate concern is how it will effect my Indy pass. 
After that I have concerns of who will have enough money and willingness to improve the skiing experience.


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Sep 7, 2022)

Big Wednesday at Jay, may the wave continue


----------



## Edd (Sep 7, 2022)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Big Wednesday at Jay, may the wave continue
> View attachment 54743


Now that’s a cast!


----------



## urungus (Sep 7, 2022)

Please not Vail … Please not Vail … Please not Vail


----------



## machski (Sep 7, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My immediate concern is how it will effect my Indy pass.
> After that I have concerns of who will have enough money and willingness to improve the skiing experience.


Regardless of who buys Jay, I think at this point they are committed to the Indy this year.  Now, the new owners could institue an Indy reservation system.  But I would think that would be the extent of things for this coming season.


----------



## St Stephen (Sep 7, 2022)

Its happening
Definitely not Vail or Alterra


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

St Stephen said:


> Its happening
> Definitely not Vail or Alterra


Did everyone here get their bids in?  LONGBOARDR we expect that you are in the race.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

urungus said:


> Please not Vail … Please not Vail … Please not Vail


"C'mon.  You all know that I AM a nice guy!"


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2022)

I didn't win the Lottery last week, so I too am out on the bid.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> KSL is definitely still separate. Alterra is just one of the things they're invested in... https://www.kslcapital.com/investments
> 
> Edit...in the northeast alone they own/manage a couple resorts separately from Alterra - Camelback and Blue in PA being 2 notable ones.


Very interesting.  Thanks for that clarification.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

drjeff said:


> Per an update from the Storm Skiing Podcast, it is confirmed that snow operators (the Big Snow operating group) WON'T be on of the 3 groups bidding.
> 
> And the initial bidding process will be in increments of 1.175 million dollars starting via Zoom or similar platform at 11AM.
> 
> Should in theory know by early afternoon tomorrow who the new owners of Jay are


Might there be a link so we can watch the fun?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2022)

his face is very punchable...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> his face is very punchable...


"OK, now you've gotten my attention. No more Mr. Nice Guy. I'm cutting days that Crotched is open AND reducing grooming and snowmaking at Attitash and Wildcat!  MU-HAHAHA!"

["Um, boss, we did that last year."]


----------



## drjeff (Sep 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Might there be a link so we can watch the fun?



No link apparently for the public.  It is apparently a closed auction limited to just the bidders and the folks running the auction


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2022)

I hope no vail and altera is legit. 

I also hop Boyne would reconsider as it would add a nice resort into their portfolio


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

Just got this Email.  Spoiler alert: no named buyer.



> There’s a dissonance to writing a general update for the weekly 242 newsletter while waiting for word about the ownership transition, which should come more fully into focus later today. It’s a contrast that’s been our reality here for a while now - keeping the routine and day-to-day as high on our collective radars as we do plans for the future, not the least of which being the transition from Receivership to new ownership.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## drjeff (Sep 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Just got this Email.  Spoiler alert: no named buyer.



So then maybe the hunch that it is an investor group, who typically doesn't operate ski areas as the buyer and they're shoring up the plans with an operator prior to the press release after the gavel dropped and the auctioneer announced that Jay had been sold, ends up being true.  Either that or Steve Wright and his great crew at Jay are quickly putting together some witty marketing video to annouce the new owners later today


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

drjeff said:


> So then maybe the hunch that it is an investor group, who typically doesn't operate ski areas as the buyer and they're shoring up the plans with an operator prior to the press release after the gavel dropped and the auctioneer announced that Jay had been sold, ends up being true.  Either that or Steve Wright and his great crew at Jay are quickly putting together some witty marketing video to annouce the new owners later today


Yeah I doubt it.  I think this was drafted pre-auction and sent out. 

We will likely see a press release announcing the details.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2022)

So.....has there been any white smoke coming out of the chimney of the Sky Haus Lodge?


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2022)

I never thought about the Catholics starting to get in on the Ski Resort game!


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 7, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....has there been any white smoke coming out of the chimney of the Sky Haus Lodge?


I would assume it will take a few days before the new owner is announced,  I would also assume that it is a bit more complicated than an EBay auction, and that there is some paperwork to be done before everything is ready for an annoucement,  But what do I know...  They'll probably have apress release out a few minutes after I post this,


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## urungus (Sep 7, 2022)

The bidding began on Wednesday morning at 11 a.m. starting at around $58 million and the interested buyers continued to bid at 15-minute intervals up until close to 5:30 p.m. Now, it’s a waiting game to find out who the winner is, and how much they will pay.

source:  https://www.wcax.com/2022/09/07/jay-peak-auction-set-wednesday/


----------



## drjeff (Sep 7, 2022)

urungus said:


> The bidding began on Wednesday morning at 11 a.m. starting at around $58 million and the interested buyers continued to bid at 15-minute intervals up until close to 5:30 p.m. Now, it’s a waiting game to find out who the winner is, and how much they will pay.
> 
> source:  https://www.wcax.com/2022/09/07/jay-peak-auction-set-wednesday/



If the bidding did indeed go up until 5:30, and the Storm Skiing Journal report of the minimum bid increment was 1.175 million, that would get the winning bid somewhere North of 85 million or so, if not more, depending on if bidding parties at times went in increments more than the minimum amount


----------



## Keelhauled (Sep 7, 2022)

The initial bid increment was $1.175 million, after that it was $250k minimums.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 7, 2022)

Keelhauled said:


> The initial bid increment was $1.175 million, after that it was $250k minimums.


Yea...not really sure why I've seen this incorrectly reported so many times. Seems like the initial increment had to be high enough to cover the break-up fee...but after that there was no reason for the incremental bids to be that high and reverted to a much lower 250K amount.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 7, 2022)

So this potentially went on all day, interesting


----------



## thebigo (Sep 8, 2022)

> The auction, which was closed to the public, started at 11 a.m. Wednesday and continued past 5 p.m.
> 
> “There’ll be more info available tomorrow,” Steven Wright, Jay Peak’s general manager, wrote in an email to VTDigger around 7 p.m..
> 
> A “final sale hearing” is set for Sept. 16 in federal court in Miami before Judge Darrin P. Gayles. That event will be open to the public.











						After daylong auction, winning bidder for Jay Peak remains a mystery
					

Steven Wright, the general manager of Jay Peak Resort, said Wednesday night that more information about the Northeast Kingdom property’s future owner would be available on Thursday.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2022)

As I read it, the starting price for the auction was either 58 million or if higher, the highest purchase price stated by one or more of the qualified bids. So if some other entity submitted a bid at say 80 million, that would have been the starting price during the auction. Also, the auction may have taking place between 11AM and 5:30PM, but that doesn't mean that the auction was active during that entire time period. The receiver had the right to adjourn the auction from time to time at their discretion. Its also interesting that the receiver was the one to decide when the auction was over and could chose who won based on the highest and best offer. Pacific did not have to participate in the auction, but if chose to, they could submit an offer at anytime during the auction. So to me, this auction does not sound like the typical going once, going twice, going three times type. As far as announcing the winning bid, I would also guess that it will be made by the receiver when he submits to the court the request for approval.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 8, 2022)

Pacific Group Resorts Wins Jay Peak Auction
					

Park City based Pacific Group Resorts, Inc. placed the highest bid – $76 million – at an auction yesterday for Jay Peak Resort. Subject to court approval, Jay will join PGRI’s group of five s…




					liftblog.com


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 8, 2022)

> The transaction is expected to close prior to the start of the 2022-23 ski season and there will be no immediate changes to season passes or Indy Pass participation for this season.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2022)

Good to hear - can't wait to find out the amount.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2022)

76 million.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 8, 2022)

thats good. should preserve the status quo.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 8, 2022)

> The “stalking horse” bidder, Pacific Group Resorts, Inc., submitted the highest and best bid in the amount of $76,000,000.4/


----------



## urungus (Sep 8, 2022)

Wonder if we will find out who the other bidders were


----------



## thebigo (Sep 8, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thats good. should preserve the status quo.


For this year sure, but doubt they are indy next year.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 8, 2022)

That sucks, place isn't worth it. When Ragged can't even get a buck on top of revenue I am having a hard time supporting this.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

$76 mill.  Wow.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Pacific Group Resorts makes winning, $76 million bid for Jay Peak
					

A daylong auction among “multiple” bidders took place Wednesday.



					vtdigger.org
				




So who were the other bidders?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> That sucks, place isn't worth it. When Ragged can't even get a buck on top of revenue I am having a hard time supporting this.


What’s the alternative?  None really.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 8, 2022)

Don't buy another mountain?


----------



## St Stephen (Sep 8, 2022)

Wow relief here in Jay
But what a long strange trip


----------



## ss20 (Sep 8, 2022)

I wouldn't say "relief"...I've made my arguments before about how this small group might be biting off more than they can chew.


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 8, 2022)

I agree SS, don’t know much about Pacific Group but do they have the resources for what Jay needs. Also how will this effect their other resorts, do they have the capital to support them+Jay.

At the end of the day its better than Jay on a Megapass in my eyes but at what cost.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Don't buy another mountain?


Well, what is known about Pacific Group?  Who are they?  Where are they getting their money? 

There are not a lot of good options.  Nobody likes Vail.  Alterra is honestly not much better.  Boyne said no.  POWDR is dysfunctional on a good day.  I hear that Fairbanks is growing, but apparently they did not have the coin.  MSSR is not coming back and even then they were pretty cheap.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I wouldn't say "relief"...I've made my arguments before about how this small group might be biting off more than they can chew.


I wonder if they now sell off one of their other resorts.....


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 8, 2022)

Oh I would have no concerns whatsoever about Pacific Group "biting off more than they can chew" on an operational/management basis. They let local management have independence and to the customer, this is a good thing. They put out an exceptional product, no flash, affordable. You know what you're getting. I suspect the Jay community is relieved it was them out of anybody that picked the place up.

My concerns come more  as a Ragged customer, as they run a very tight capital budget and have concerns this will not help it. Alternatively, I may be reading into it too much and they could have decided now is the time to get more serious about their New England assets. Again, could go either way. Time will tell...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Oh I would have no concerns whatsoever about Pacific Group "biting off more than they can chew" on an operational basis. They let local management have independence and to the customer, this is a good thing. I suspect the Jay community is relieved it was them out of anybody that picked the place up.
> 
> My concerns come from a Ragged customer, as they run a very tight capital budget and have concerns this will not help it. Alternatively, I may be reading into it too much and they could have decided now is the time to get more serious about their New England assets. Again, could go either way.


FWIW the Receiver is quoted as saying that he was *very upfront that Jay needs more investment.  *We will see if that happens.  The lift infrastructure is pretty beat. *No* *significant lift upgrades *since 1999.  I'm not counting the relocated Metro Quad or the other T-Bar replacement.  Those are not very significant lifts in the grand scheme of Jay. There are some resorts replacing lifts that are not much older than the Freezer.  I'm not even talking about the snowmaking.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 8, 2022)

All I’ll say is that Ragged was a crumbling disaster when Pacific Group took things over. They refurbished the 6
pack and got the crippled Spear triple going. Small changes over the coming years have made Ragged one of the most enjoyable places. They didn’t always make the best decisions, they were involved with EB-5 too and the Pinnacle expansion didn‘t pan out but over all Ragged is a much better place than when they started.

Don‘t expect miracles from PGR. Improvements may come slowly but I, at least, am confident In their management style.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 8, 2022)

I have one other thing to add.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 8, 2022)

Abubob said:


> All I’ll say is that Ragged was a crumbling disaster when Pacific Group took things over. They refurbished the 6
> package and got the crippled Spear triple going. Small changes over the coming years have made Ragged one of the most enjoyable places. They didn’t always make the best decisions, they were involved with EB-5 too and the Pinnacle expansion didn‘t pan out but over all Ragged is a much better place than when they started.
> 
> Don‘t expect miracles from PGR. Improvements may come slowly but I, at least, am confident In their management style.



You make a good point, yeah Ragged has been turned around nicely over 15 years.  The issue is Jay needs snowmaking capital now and the Flyer will need replacement sooner than later being an American Leitner one-off.  They won't have 15 years to make improvements...it has to happen soon and now they're $80 million down.

I will add too that the Flyer replacement will be nearly 8,000 feet in length, 30ish towers, and *should* be a bubble lift.  Not exactly cheap


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 8, 2022)

I do suspect they did their due diligence and have factored these items into the transaction. One would hope so anyway...  A new lift and snowmaking improvements are natural first moves for new owners. I just would not expect to ever an "Epic Style" capital extravaganza if you know what I mean.

Abubob does put things into prospective nicely. Ragged went from a bankrupt falling down no name to what they are today under PCR, but they did so gradually.


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 8, 2022)

I was very impressed with their Wisp operation when I went there 2 years ago.  One of those placed where you get the feeling that they really know what they're doing  (kinda like Pat's Peak), and that was during covid.  Also hit Wintergreen that year. Nice place, but it was quiet that day, so didn't see how they handled crowds.

Now I just need to get to that Mt. Washington!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Very interesting collection of executives, including PCMR's former President and the former COO of POWDR. 






						The Pacific Group Resorts Team | pgri.us
					

Learn all about the team that makes up Pacific Group Resorts here.




					pgri.us


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 8, 2022)

hopefully the former COO of Powder wasn't the one responsible for renewing the PCMR lease...


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 8, 2022)

Now let’s see that ragged - Jay peak combo pass!


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 8, 2022)

Also now the receiver can concentrate on Burke.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I will add too that the Flyer replacement will be nearly 8,000 feet in length, 30ish towers, and *should* be a bubble lift.  Not exactly cheap


Wind conditions pretty much guarantees that it won't be a bubble lift.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 8, 2022)

As long as they don’t call it PJay.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 8, 2022)

I think it may be time for a new thread.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 8, 2022)

I wish them all the luck and success and they are inheriting a good management team which is not always a given.  I do have a feeling that next year they will partner with IKON to generate more traffic.  I said it


----------



## ss20 (Sep 8, 2022)

Abubob said:


> I think it may be time for a new thread.


Or just add an "s" to the end to make it bombshells lol


----------



## ss20 (Sep 8, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Wind conditions pretty much guarantees that it won't be a bubble lift.



I'm not sure the technology is pretty good now it seems bubbles vs non bubble lifts are extremely similar in their wind capabilities.  SR is replacing Jordan with a bubble and that's probably the 2nd worst lift for wind in the east after the Flyer.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 8, 2022)

The difference they made at Powderhorn is substantial as well


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Abubob said:


> As long as they don’t call it PJay.


If Bill Stenger could talk......I wonder if he had to fight off a dumb attempt at renaming it Q Jay Peak.  Seriously.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Also now the receiver can concentrate on Burke.


Oddly enough the last few visits have been very positive.  The Hotel is busy most of the time I've been there.  A new T-Bar and lots of new snowmaking equipment.  In my many years of being around ski areas in all seasons, I have never seen one that has so much excess snowmaking equipment laying around.  On a hike in June I would literally trip over stacks of HKD guns lying in the grass.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> hopefully the former COO of Powder wasn't the one responsible for renewing the PCMR lease...


Well, I do wonder if he was the "one" that was laid off (or transitioned) that had that responsibility.  

I don't know how long he has been gone from POWDR, but it has been a while.  POWDR's current COO is still in MBA school (?!)


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2022)

So Jay Peak is currently operated by Leisure Hotels. I wonder how many people they actually have at the resort actively working and how Pacific is going to replace them in the near future.


----------



## machski (Sep 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> I'm not sure the technology is pretty good now it seems bubbles vs non bubble lifts are extremely similar in their wind capabilities.  SR is replacing Jordan with a bubble and that's probably the 2nd worst lift for wind in the east after the Flyer.


Yes, and if Jay went with Dopp D-Line tech even just for a 6, I seriously doubt that would need 30 lift towers.  Maybe 20, the D-Line rope gauge is much larger than previous lift tech allowing greater free span distances.  I believe the Jordan 8 will have fewer towers than the quad did.  Loon's Kanc 8 has fewer towers than the Lanc Quad did for sure.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 8, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I do wonder if he was the "one" that was laid off (or transitioned) that had that responsibility.
> 
> I don't know how long he has been gone from POWDR, but it has been a while.  POWDR's current COO is still in MBA school (?!)


It was him, he join PGR in 2013 after leaving Powdr.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

Just got this:



> *ANOTHER STOP ALONG THIS LONG, STRANGE TRIP.*​
> 
> Dear Jay Peaker,
> 
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 8, 2022)

mbedle said:


> It was him, he join PGR in 2013 after leaving Powdr.


So John Cumming has a fatwa on this guy?


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 8, 2022)

Please no bubbles, please no bubbles!!!!!!


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 8, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Please no bubbles, please no bubbles!!!!!!


Maybe just a shield on the right side of the chair that blocks the wind that blows straight from the artic across the flat frozen Canadian tundra.


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 8, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Please no bubbles, please no bubbles!!!!!!


Guess you should have been pulling for Vail then.  I'm still a bit surprised they kept the Okemo Quantum bubbles when they did the move.


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 8, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Maybe just a shield on the right side of the chair that blocks the wind that blows straight from the artic across the flat frozen Canadian tundra.


I’d be happy with that. I just like fresh air, especially in a post-covid world.

Also, Vail Sucks!


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## crank (Sep 8, 2022)

From what I remember that patented "Freezer" arctic blast hits you from dead ahead.  If them bubbles can power through that I'm all for 'em.  Brrr that's a cold ride.


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 9, 2022)

I found myself at Okemo last season for the first time in 50 years.  It was a really cold-windy day.  I spent 90% of the day on the Bubble-six.  The heated seats and the bubble immensely improved the experience.  On a warmer day later in the season, we rode bubble-up.

I spend a lot of time at Killington.  On really cold and windy days, I used to spend the entire day doing laps on K1.  I was pleased when they swapped out the Slowden Quad for the Bubble-six and provided a fast and comfortable ride on those brutally cold days.

The Bubble may not make a difference to the 10K vertical skiers who take a lot of breaks in the day, but if your typical day is 25K to 35K vertical, the enclosed lifts make a big difference.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2022)

crank said:


> From what I remember that patented "Freezer" arctic blast hits you from dead ahead.  If them bubbles can power through that I'm all for 'em.  Brrr that's a cold ride.


nope. You come over the rise about 2/3rds of the way up and it hits you from about 2-3 o'clock as you cross over Alligator ally near staircase


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 9, 2022)

That email from Steve W was great!

I hope he and Mike S from Killington stay at these jobs a long time and are mentoring younger staff to manage the same way in the future. 

Vail should take note...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Put me down for, _"after substantial discussions_ (with a company that wont be named)_, no competing bids emerged"._



Sticking with there never were any additional bids.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sticking with there never were any additional bids.


Then why the $20M price increase? 

I get the receiver's job was to recoup funds for the investors but that $20M sure would have looked good on the hill.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Then why the $20M price increase?



Then color me surprised in this environment when few deals are getting done, I saw that the initially named entity's taking control, but I didn't see the updated $18M higher figure.  A few pages back I guessed it was worth $60M - $75M, so I think $76M is a fair deal.  At least this many-year saga will soon be over.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 9, 2022)

lol.


----------



## crank (Sep 9, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> nope. You come over the rise about 2/3rds of the way up and it hits you from about 2-3 o'clock as you cross over Alligator ally near staircase



Yeah I remember getting all zipped up into chair mode before cresting the ridge.  I just remember it hitting me head on.  I Used to ski Jay a lot in the 80's up until about the time they opened tore down the old hotel Jay.  Have only been a couple of days since.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That email from Steve W was great!
> 
> I hope he and Mike S from Killington stay at these jobs a long time and are mentoring younger staff to manage the same way in the future.
> 
> Vail should take note...


"Take note of THIS."


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> I found myself at Okemo last season for the first time in 50 years.  It was a really cold-windy day.  I spent 90% of the day on the Bubble-six.  The heated seats and the bubble immensely improved the experience.  On a warmer day later in the season, we rode bubble-up.
> 
> I spend a lot of time at Killington.  On really cold and windy days, I used to spend the entire day doing laps on K1.  I was pleased when they swapped out the Slowden Quad for the Bubble-six and provided a fast and comfortable ride on those brutally cold days.
> 
> The Bubble may not make a difference to the 10K vertical skiers who take a lot of breaks in the day, but if your typical day is 25K to 35K vertical, the enclosed lifts make a big difference.


Agreed.  The Bubbles saved at least half of our recent week at Big Sky when the highs were in the 0-10F range.

I just don't know if Pacific is going to be able to spend that much on new lifts after dropping $76 mill to buy the place.  I think a reasonable expectation may be replacing Bonnie with a HSQ and maybe the Jet.  Both are approaching 35+ years old.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 9, 2022)

That picture never gets old...

its so incredibly odd

nothing says "have a good time skiing" like that...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *That picture never gets old...*
> 
> its so incredibly odd
> 
> nothing says "have a good time skiing" like that...



I was literally about to post, "that picture never gets old", and then I saw your reply.

It's like a photo some authoritarian dictator would pose with his military brass to frighten the citizenry into submission.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> I just don't know if Pacific is going to be able to spend that much on new lifts after dropping $76 mill to buy the place.  I think a reasonable expectation may be replacing Bonnie with a HSQ and maybe the Jet.  Both are approaching 35+ years old.



This is probably correct, but skier's right needs help too.  The line at the Freezer now gets so long certain weekends & holidays that it makes you ponder whether skiing that day was the correct choice.  The entire period comprising Canuck school vacation(s) is particularly brutal.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

_Dear Pacific Group Resorts,_

_    Congratulations on your winning bid for Jay Peak, a truly wonderful property.   I'm just wondering what your thoughts are regarding Bicknell's Thrush.

Best of luck,

BG_


----------



## drjeff (Sep 9, 2022)

Between mutiple lifts and snowmaking enhancements as well, realistically it's probably in the neighborhood of 40 to 50 million that likely should be spent over the next say 5 years or so at Jay to get the infrastructure up to where it likely needs to be for the next 10 - 20 years of operations.  Not exaclty a small amount, and likely going to have the new ownership taking a long look at how they will allocate their coming capital investments across all of their resort holdings


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 9, 2022)

Someone on social media asked Ragged if their pass will now work at Jay and reply was Yes (more details to come). Score for me at $379 haha.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> *Someone on social media asked Ragged if their pass will now work at Jay and reply was Yes *(more details to come). Score for me at $379 haha.



Kinda find that extremely hard to believe; but I quadropoly find it hard to believe Ragged personal would already be able to definitively answer that question.


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## PAabe (Sep 9, 2022)

I believe Pacific group passes have always been interchangeable, at Ragged, Wisp, Wintergreen, Powderhorn, and Mt. Washington, with some holiday limitiarions, so it would make sense for Jay


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## nh2maboarder (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Kinda find that extremely hard to believe; but I quadropoly find it hard to believe Ragged personal would already be able to definitively answer that question.


Wow, I wonder how much the price will jump next year!


----------



## PAabe (Sep 9, 2022)

I didn't have a problem with the Jet, it gains a lot of elevation quickly despite being fixed grip, has a low profile below the tree line, and seems to have plenty of capacity for that area of the hill.  Seemed to be in pretty good shape to me.

As for the Bonnie, it would be nice if it ran a bit faster and got you access that last couple feet up and over to the west side without having to hike.  The bottom terminal as it sits can also be inconveniently high if you're coming over from the the far east side.  It also seems a little more worn than their other lifts.  Probably restating the obvious.  Bonnie could just replaced, I hope they don't rip up too many trees in the process though.  It's a pretty ride up as it is.


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## crank (Sep 9, 2022)

PAabe said:


> I didn't have a problem with the Jet, it gains a lot of elevation quickly despite being fixed grip, has a low profile below the tree line, and seems to have plenty of capacity for that area of the hill.  Seemed to be in pretty good shape to me.
> 
> As for the Bonnie, it would be nice if it ran a bit faster and got you access that last couple feet up and over to the west side without having to hike.  The bottom terminal as it sits can also be inconveniently high if you're coming over from the the far east side.  It also seems a little more worn than their other lifts.  Probably restating the obvious.  Bonnie could just replaced, I hope they don't rip up too many trees in the process though.  It's a pretty ride up as it is.


I both agree and disagree.

Yes on Jet.  We've spent entire stormy days riding that and skiing out of bounds.

No to eliminating the short hike off top of Bonnie to access west.  I like it because it preserves powder on the west side of hill.  Plenty of storms that blow copious amounts of snow into Beaver Pond and very few skiers hiking to ski it.

I last skied Jay about 4 or 5 seasons back.  Might have to bail on my Ikon for a powder day and hit Jay.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 9, 2022)

PAabe said:


> I didn't have a problem with the Jet, it gains a lot of elevation quickly despite being fixed grip, has a low profile below the tree line, and seems to have plenty of capacity for that area of the hill.  Seemed to be in pretty good shape to me.
> 
> As for the Bonnie, it would be nice if it ran a bit faster and got you access that last couple feet up and over to the west side without having to hike.  The bottom terminal as it sits can also be inconveniently high if you're coming over from the the far east side.  It also seems a little more worn than their other lifts.  Probably restating the obvious.  Bonnie could just replaced, I hope they don't rip up too many trees in the process though.  It's a pretty ride up as it is.



bite your tongue.

the "hike" from bonnie to tramside is nothing, yet it still keeps goobers from skiing tons of fresh snow any time the flyer goes down. its beautiful. the bonnie should not be extended. i agree it should be replaced, preferably with a hsq.


----------



## fbrissette (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> _Dear Pacific Group Resorts,_
> 
> _    Congratulations on your winning bid for Jay Peak, a truly wonderful property.   I'm just wondering what your thoughts are regarding Bicknell's Thrush.
> 
> ...


LOL   I doubt Vermont's thoughts are changing anytime soon.   Even if the Bicknell's Thrush makes a comeback,  they'll find a wild frog or salamander in need of saving.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 9, 2022)

I don't do Facebook but last paragraph indicates there will be some discount/access not necessarily full access.

I would guess a large number of blackouts with half price tickets on blackout days.


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## thebigo (Sep 9, 2022)

Wintergreen access for reference



> Access to Wintergreen Resort in Virginia every day Wintergreen is open during the 2022-23 winter season, and only after 4:00pm from Dec. 24-31, 2022 and Saturdays in January and February. Passholders can purchase a $59 day ticket during these exclusions.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 9, 2022)

some form of reciprocal benefit is prob a few free days, i doubt a jay peak pass is suddenly under 400


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

PAabe said:


> I believe *Pacific group passes have always been interchangeable*, at Ragged, Wisp, Wintergreen, Powderhorn, and Mt. Washington, with some holiday limitiarions, *so it would make sense for Jay*



Then everyone who plans on skiing Jay Peak more than a few days should buy a Ragged pass, like, immediately.  Color me skeptical this is legit.


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## Newpylong (Sep 9, 2022)

Guess time will tell how far it goes.


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## PAabe (Sep 9, 2022)

I too have enjoyed ripping through 2' of powder on the west side of Jay... maybe the top terminal should stay where it is.

Is that last tower up to the top terminal on the current alignment too exposed and windy for a detachable?  Or would they more likely use power line


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *some form of reciprocal benefit is prob a few free days*, i doubt a jay peak pass is suddenly under 400



Exactly.


----------



## PAabe (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then everyone who plans on skiing Jay Peak more than a few days should buy a Ragged pass, like, immediately.


Oops maybe I should have bought a ragged pass
Makes sense they would limit it to a few days


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Sep 9, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> bite your tongue.
> 
> the "hike" from bonnie to tramside is nothing, yet it still keeps goobers from skiing tons of fresh snow any time the flyer goes down. its beautiful. the bonnie should not be extended. i agree it should be replaced, preferably with a hsq.


The Bonnie will be extended whenever it happens. before the meltdown, they ran electrical from the base to the Northway crossing for a detachable chair maybe a 6 not sure.  The new upper terminal was supposed to be at the exit of St George's prayer.  So it would be above the Northway. Doubt a bubble very much


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> I was literally about to post, "that picture never gets old", and then I saw your reply.
> 
> It's like a photo some authoritarian dictator would pose with his military brass to frighten the citizenry into submission.


I have it saved for special occasions. When you were picked on all your life for being a nerd, you need to make that Men's Journal photo shoot count.  

This one is equally dumb.  Note the shit-eating smug smile.  













						Robert Katz | Matthew Nager
					






					mattnager.photoshelter.com


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## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> _Dear Pacific Group Resorts,_
> 
> _    Congratulations on your winning bid for Jay Peak, a truly wonderful property.   I'm just wondering what your thoughts are regarding Bicknell's Thrush.
> 
> ...


Do you happen to know any good consultants?  And will they accept payment in ski passes?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 9, 2022)

LONGBOARDR said:


> The Bonnie will be extended whenever it happens.



100% so long as it's feasible, as it makes no sense not to. Although that makes me wonder why it wasnt done in the first place.  I'd love to see the return of the short-double to the top as well, though I doubt that happens.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 9, 2022)

nh2maboarder said:


> Wow, I wonder how much the price will jump next year!


I would guess very little since their entire marketing plan is "Mission Affordable".


----------



## LONGBOARDR (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> 100% so long as it's feasible, as it makes no sense not to. Although that makes me wonder why it wasnt done in the first place.  I'd love to see the return of the short-double to the top as well, though I doubt that happens.


If I remember correctly, it was pretty close to going ahead before the scandal. It was funding availability I believe. Cost was around 7 M, again my memory is fading.
I do however remember at that time Bill joking about the Bicknell thrush


----------



## mbedle (Sep 9, 2022)

LONGBOARDR said:


> If I remember correctly, it was pretty close to going ahead before the scandal. It was funding availability I believe. Cost was around 7 M, again my memory is fading.
> I do however remember at that time Bill joking about the Bicknell thrush


The permit application has the lift (called Power Line) upper terminal near the beginning of St. George's Prayer and going up the 601 trail. I think someone already mentioned that.


----------



## RH29 (Sep 9, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> 100% so long as it's feasible, as it makes no sense not to. Although that makes me wonder why it wasnt done in the first place.  I'd love to see the return of the short-double to the top as well, though I doubt that happens.


I'd be ok with that on the condition that it is similar to Castlerock at Sugarbush - an EXTREMELY low capacity, slow double. Max it at 360 people per hour and it shouldn't affect conditions too much.


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 9, 2022)

Has anyone leaked who the other two bidders were? I've heard lots of speculation, but no real info


----------



## machski (Sep 9, 2022)

mbedle said:


> The permit application has the lift (called Power Line) upper terminal near the beginning of St. George's Prayer and going up the 601 trail. I think someone already mentioned that. View attachment 54759


Yes, it was called power line 6 IIRC and actually what hung the project up was seasonal streams too close to at least one planned tower footings that tanked the ACT250 approval.  This was a big problem too as they had planned on this lift when they built the Stateside lodge/hotel complex basically over the base of the Bonnie (they had removed the base terminal already for that build).  So when they lost approval, they had to shorten and move Bonnie's base terminal uphill of the lodge.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2022)

All you folks clamoring for massive investment on mountain in a hurry (they need to replace Bonnie, Freezer and Jet in the next five years etc.), why?

Jay ain't that broken.  They can milk those lifts a lot longer.  Plenty of other mountains have with their lifts. And none of Jay's lift ages or speed is catastrophic to the business like say the Attitash triple. 

What if Pacific just approaches Jay like they did Ragged?  Steady improvements and investments commensurate with the business growth.  

Focus on snowmaking first while getting their feet under themselves with the water park, lodging etc, then maybe get to a lift in 3-4 years.

I have a lot of confidence in Pacific based upon what I've read, seen and experienced with Ragged.  They have a very loyal and pleased clientele there.  They take the same approach with Jay and I see good things while preserving current character which is still great.  Not as good as it once was.  I miss the dirtier Jay


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2022)

machski said:


> Yes, it was called power line 6 IIRC and actually what hung the project up was seasonal streams too close to at least one planned tower footings that tanked the ACT250 approval.  This was a big problem too as they had planned on this lift when they built the Stateside lodge/hotel complex basically over the base of the Bonnie (they had removed the base terminal already for that build).  So when they lost approval, they had to shorten and move Bonnie's base terminal uphill of the lodge.


Well, was it documented that they lost the Act 250 permit or was it that Bill did not have the money because Q needed to buy himself some goodies?  

(It could have been both).


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 9, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> All you folks clamoring for massive investment on mountain in a hurry (they need to replace Bonnie, Freezer and Jet in the next five years etc.), why?
> 
> Jay ain't that broken.  They can milk those lifts a lot longer.  Plenty of other mountains have with their lifts. And none of Jay's lift ages or speed is catastrophic to the business like say the Attitash triple.


True.  


deadheadskier said:


> What if Pacific just approaches Jay like they did Ragged?  Steady improvements and investments commensurate with the business growth.
> 
> Focus on snowmaking first while getting their feet under themselves with the water park, lodging etc, then maybe get to a lift in 3-4 years.


Snowmaking is not a bad idea.  And I'd be more concerned if they came out promising to do all these improvements up front.  It's easy to get in over your head.


deadheadskier said:


> I have a lot of confidence in Pacific based upon what I've read, seen and experienced with Ragged.  They have a very loyal and pleased clientele there.  They take the same approach with Jay and I see good things while preserving current character which is still great.  Not as good as it once was.  I miss the dirtier Jay


Probably less crowded.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> *Focus on snowmaking first *


Focus on snowmaking first with at Jay Peak?   I dont get that.  It's the only place east of the Mississippi I can book an actual vacation in April almost no fear.  There've been multiple years I've skied trees at Jay Peak when Stowe & Smuggler's Notch were basically WROD'ing it places (if they were open).


----------



## ss20 (Sep 10, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Focus on snowmaking first with at Jay Peak?   I dont get that.  It's the only place east of the Mississippi I can book an actual vacation in April almost no fear.  There've been multiple years I've skied trees at Jay Peak when Stowe & Smuggler's Notch were basically WROD'ing it places (if they were open).



The quality of man made snow at Jay is the the absolute worst imaginable.  I mean they blow piles so wet they won't open the trail while guns are going.  It's just awful.  And with the wind there all the natural gets blown right off in places.  Whatever those two intermediate trails are off the top of the tram- terrible in my expirence.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Focus on snowmaking first with at Jay Peak?   I dont get that.  It's the only place east of the Mississippi I can book an actual vacation in April almost no fear.  There've been multiple years I've skied trees at Jay Peak when Stowe & Smuggler's Notch were basically WROD'ing it places (if they were open).



Sure.  They have the most reliable natural in the East and preserve the snow well into the spring due to being so far North and at decent elevation.

But they're still in the East and subject to thaw / freeze cycles.  Jay can be downright terrible during snow droughts.  I think investing in improvements there would go a long ways towards helping with recovering from thaws and offer insurance to offer a decent early season product during years mother nature is slow to help.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 10, 2022)

Snowmaking improvements will not be cheap. Their main problem is lack of water. The only solution is to install a pipeline down the mountain to the river. Not cheap! Then they will need to upgrade their pumps and snowmaking system on the mountain. Last season there were trails that they never got to with snowmaking, most noticeably Uler's.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2022)

My wife is not a fan of Jay as the non tree runs can get very icy and scrapped off pretty quickly. The trails you use to go from one section of the mtn to another especially.
The tram side area near JFK can be pretty lean as well.


----------



## Edd (Sep 10, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> My wife is not a fan of Jay as the non tree runs can get very icy and scrapped off pretty quickly. The trails you use to go from one section of the mtn to another especially.
> The tram side area near JFK can be pretty lean as well.


Last time I was at Jay was with the wife and on piste was scary icy. Woods were not in great shape either. It was her first time there and she isn’t keen to return. As a bonus, the tram kind of freaked her out so fun trip all around. Enjoyed the Tram Haus, though.


----------



## crank (Sep 10, 2022)

Jay has always been and always will be hit or miss conditions-wise with not much in between.  So great when you hit it though!


----------



## Zand (Sep 10, 2022)

crank said:


> Jay has always been and always will be hit or miss conditions-wise with not much in between.  So great when you hit it though!


Especially for a non-glade skier. Not even really worth going there if you're not into the woods at least a little bit. Groomers are better almost anywhere else. Been there plenty of times when the woods were bliss and the groomers were downright scary at the same time.


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 10, 2022)

Also the trail/lift setup isn’t very conducive to lapping groomers (good setup for lapping is something like 4Runner). Add onto that the propensity for wind holds and ice and you have a recipe for not the greatest on piste skiing most of the time…


----------



## eatskisleep (Sep 10, 2022)

mbedle said:


> I would guess very little since their entire marketing plan is "Mission Affordable".


They are the anti-Vail


----------



## machski (Sep 10, 2022)

Here are my thoughts for whatever that's worth.  Pacific says they have vying to aquire Jay for three years now.  I would take it during that time, they have done more than typical due diligence and have likely had many conversations with SW on what Jay has and what it lacks.  I agree that while many of the lifts are old and the Flyer is one of 3 NA Leitner HSQ's in existence, they are all fairly reliable and are not immediately in need of replacement.  I have to imagine snowmaking is at the very top of their investment plans.  Jay is the crown jewel if not of the entire portfolio, their Eastern one for sure.  It will need to appeal to more than the "core" skier's/riders that enjoy the woods and off piste experiences.  Jay cannot deliver on that in the varied weather of NE right now.  I've had plenty of awesome days at Jay, but I've had a few where I missed on a storm and it was absolutely horrid.  I would expect Pacific to look at grooming too along with the snowmaking.  Perhaps an additional winch cat or larger cats to help with recovery on the groomers as that is definitely shorter $$ than snowmaking boosts.

As for lifts, I would be shocked if they changed out anything prior to Bonnie.  It is the one long, slow FG chair on the hill that has been the talk of a detach for ages.  A new lift should also land a bit further uphill than the current to ease flow (I know, again the hardcore don't want that, but even SW has said the lift needs to land higher in interviews).  Then possibly the Flyer of parts/support disappear from L-P especially.  I would expect the jet lastly.  

Finally, Will be interesting to see if Pacific rekindles the West expansion at some point down the road.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2022)

JPTracker said:


> Snowmaking improvements will not be cheap. Their main problem is lack of water. The only solution is to install a pipeline down the mountain to the river. Not cheap! Then they will need to upgrade their pumps and snowmaking system on the mountain. Last season there were trails that they never got to with snowmaking, most noticeably Uler's.



Many trails across the region didn't see snowmaking last year (and the year before in many cases).


----------



## thebigo (Sep 10, 2022)

Someone more adept at facebook can confirm but it appears ragged removed the post mentioning pass reciprocity.


----------



## IceEidolon (Sep 10, 2022)

I'd hope for more grooming as a faster fix than more snowmaking for ther recovery problem. A PB600E+ or a Leitwolf can turn rather a lot of icy beginner trail into tolerable surface in the hands of a skilled operator. That's especially true if most of their snowmaking fleet is older low E guns and portable Ratniks and Larchmonts - adding one or two cats to the rotation is likely easier than changing your entire snowmaking plan and adding trails of new Impulse towers.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 10, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Someone more adept at facebook can confirm but it appears ragged removed the post mentioning pass reciprocity.


Actually saw that on Instagram. Shoulda taken a screen shot. S’gone now.


----------



## crystalmountainskier (Sep 10, 2022)

machski said:


> I agree that while many of the lifts are old and the Flyer is one of 3 NA Leitner HSQ's in existence...


There are actually 10 if you count Canada as part of North America. These lifts are fully supported as Leitner bought Poma, not the other way around. I don't think the Flyer is going anywhere for a long time.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2022)

ss20 said:


> The quality of man made snow at Jay is the the absolute worst imaginable.  I mean they blow piles so wet they won't open the trail while guns are going.  It's just awful.  And with the wind there all the natural gets blown right off in places.  Whatever those two intermediate trails are off the top of the tram- terrible in my expirence.


Bad wind, bad snowmaking, and wide trails = the real reason they pushed the glades.  It is a hell of a lot cheaper to cut some glades then add snowmaking to trails that just can’t hold it with the wind.

That said, the trees at Jay Peak are definitely legit. What makes it work is that they do have the snow to make them awesome. But the trail skiing at Jay Peak, with the exception of the Jet, does suck.  It is either too steep to hold snow, wind blown, or slabs across the fall line.


----------



## ThatGuy (Sep 10, 2022)




----------



## Abubob (Sep 11, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> View attachment 54760


Oh, that right. I forgot. Jay sucks!


----------



## Abubob (Sep 11, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> Please no bubbles, please no bubbles!!!!!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> View attachment 54760


We call that “technical skiing” in the east!


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 13, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> View attachment 54760


Looks pretty fast. Is that a double fall line? Also, pretty sure I see a Squatch coming out of the woods on the left. You can tell by the knuckles almost dragging on the snow (this is not anywhere close to a ski move) it moves in complete silence. Let's keep this on the down low as voices carry.


----------



## MidnightJester (Sep 13, 2022)

Definitely  was doable but a little scary in spots looking at it. 
Beware always because the Squatch lurk amongst us in human attire ~ He looks slightly familiar at that distance though


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> All you folks clamoring for massive investment on mountain in a hurry (they need to replace Bonnie, Freezer and Jet in the next five years etc.), why?
> 
> Jay ain't that broken.  They can milk those lifts a lot longer.  Plenty of other mountains have with their lifts. And none of Jay's lift ages or speed is catastrophic to the business like say the Attitash triple.
> 
> ...


Don't think they need to back the truck up with additional capital, but any plan that doesn't involve replacing Bonnie is going to be viewed as massively underwhelming.  You can quibble with calls to replace Jet, Freezer or other lifts/expansions, but Bonnie is a festering wound that is the missing piece to make the mountain ski more cohesively.  If it's up to me, I'd put a widely spaced 6 seater to the higher terminal spot planned above Northway so that you manage capacity while upping speed and wind resistance.  Then chop the Bonnie in half and use it to replace the Jet triple, bringing extra capacity and wind-resistance on the cheap for a pod that doesn't require a detatchable lift.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 13, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I miss the dirtier Jay


Amen to that! Aside from the *GROSS* men‘s room I miss the old Stateside Lodge with the porch. The new lodge/hotel leaves me feeling too disconnected from the slope. I liked the view from the old lodge.

But that’s history. Ragged can’t bring that back … or *can* they?


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2022)

Abubob said:


> Amen to that! Aside from the *GROSS* men‘s room I miss the old Stateside Lodge with the porch. The new lodge/hotel leaves me feeling too disconnected from the slope. I liked the view from the old lodge.
> 
> But that’s history. Ragged can’t bring that back … or *can* they?


Bar is too small at stateside. Stupid bus


----------



## Abubob (Sep 13, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Bar is too small at stateside. Stupid bus


I can’t afford bar booze anymore so … meh.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2022)

VTDigger takes EB-5 public records case to the Vermont Supreme Court
					

The news organization filed a brief in the high court this week seeking to force the state to identify which documents it’s withholding and why, as required under the Public Records Act.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2022)

Are we confident the Vermont Supreme Court wouldnt protect State of Vermont?

Seem to me this needs a Federal investigation***, and if that happens I expect to hear about, "missing records, "deleted emails", and "vanishing hard drives" aplenty. 

***PRO TIP:  Wait until 2023 once Leahy retires.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 14, 2022)

It's odd The Feds would "put him up" in Florida. The crimes were committed in Vermont. I guess the thinking is if he wants to escape he can swim back to his home land?
This whole thing has had a weird smell to it since day one.

Is this guy and his thugs going to make the victims whole? Nope


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> It's odd The Feds would "put him up" in Florida. The crimes were committed in Vermont. I guess the thinking is if he wants to escape he can swim back to his home land?
> This whole thing has had a weird smell to it since day one.
> 
> Is this guy and his thugs going to make the victims whole? Nope


Um, interesting points.  Q lived, and his businesses, were in Florida. That is why the case was in Florida because he was there and that is where they have jurisdiction over him.

And I am pretty sure that Q was born and raised in NYC. I might be wrong. His wife is Korean. So I guess he could swim back to NYC?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Um, interesting points.  Q lived, and his businesses, were in Florida. That is why the case was in Florida because he was there and that is where they have jurisdiction over him.
> 
> And I am pretty sure that Q was born and raised in NYC. I might be wrong. His wife is Korean. So I guess he could swim back to NYC?



i actually thought the case was in miami but it seems it was conducted in the federal district of vermont. they can put him wherever they want in the federal system tho, and he probably exerted some influence via his lawyers to get a nice placement close to home in florida.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 14, 2022)

If I am not mistaken, Ragged changed the pass benefit language on their website. Used to mention 'all Pacific Group Resorts'.



> Access to Pacific Group Resorts – Wintergreen, Wisp, Powderhorn, and Mount Washington.
> *6* Buddy Tickets for Tier #1 and *4* Buddy Tickets for Tier #2, #3, and #4, each valid for a $69 lift ticket - with NO blackout dates, honored at Pacific Group Resorts – Wintergreen, Wisp, Powderhorn, and Mount Washington.



Final hearing scheduled for friday.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i actually thought the case was in miami but it seems it was conducted in the federal district of vermont. they can put him wherever they want in the federal system tho, and he probably exerted some influence via his lawyers to get a nice placement close to home in florida.


So the SEC Civil Matter was in FL.  The criminal matter was VT.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2022)

thebigo said:


> If I am not mistaken, Ragged changed the pass benefit language on their website. Used to mention 'all Pacific Group Resorts'.
> 
> 
> 
> Final hearing scheduled for friday.


Hmmmm….


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 14, 2022)

Whatever happened to Lil Q? Is he slinging drinks somewhere? Playing Techno at a club?


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 15, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Um, interesting points.  Q lived, and his businesses, were in Florida. That is why the case was in Florida because he was there and that is where they have jurisdiction over him.
> 
> And I am pretty sure that Q was born and raised in NYC. I might be wrong. His wife is Korean. So I guess he could swim back to NYC?


That's what the intercoastal water way is for. At any rate, he won't be an enemy of the ski industry for a bit.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 15, 2022)

I'm working on a swim route from Korea, this may take a bit I'll keep you posted.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 15, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> I'm working on a swim route from Korea, this may take a bit I'll keep you posted.


If you're planning on factoring in a pathway through the Persian Gulf and up into the Med, don't forget to factor in extra time for a ship to get stuck in the Suez Canal during Q's open water swim session!


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 15, 2022)

drjeff said:


> If you're planning on factoring in a pathway through the Persian Gulf and up into the Med, don't forget to factor in extra time for a ship to get stuck in the Suez Canal during Q's open water swim session!


That would be an expensive and too expensive. I'm thinking around the horn. Looking into going over the north pole. They guy likes cold weather this will suit him fine. May take a couple of years. Lots of places you can dig hole and not fill them in up there.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 15, 2022)

Also, Siberia is nice this time of year. They're going FULL FESTIVUS up there.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2022)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'll have what this guys is having.  And keep it coming...


----------



## Harvey (Sep 15, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I miss the dirtier Jay


Me too. Stateside, my first day at Jay in 2011, 8" of fresh, forecast was for flurries:


----------



## Granite1 (Sep 15, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Also, Siberia is nice this time of year. They're going FULL FESTIVUS up there.


Please change Shawnee Peak to Pleasant Mountain. Poor Tecumseh-panther across the sky-must be shedding tears. There won't be any shooting stars over Pleasant Mountain anytime soon!


----------



## Granite1 (Sep 15, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Please change Shawnee Peak to Pleasant Mountain. Poor Tecumseh-panther across the sky-must be shedding tears. There won't be any shooting stars over Pleasant Mountain anytime soon!


Will Waterville Valley have to rename Mt. Tecumseh?


----------



## Granite1 (Sep 15, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Will Waterville Valley have to rename Mt. Tecumseh?


I guess Mt. Osceola will have to go too?


----------



## NYDB (Sep 15, 2022)

Hilarious self ownage right there.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Please change Shawnee Peak to Pleasant Mountain. Poor Tecumseh-panther across the sky-must be shedding tears. There won't be any shooting stars over Pleasant Mountain anytime soon!


Can someone please translate this?


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Can someone please translate this?


Think he is possessed by Bodemiller1


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Can someone please translate this?





thetrailboss said:


> Can someone please translate this?


Please change Shawnee Peak to Pleasant Mountain.  This is a simple name switch - a roo
Poor Tecumseh-panther across the sky-must be shedding tears. This is a Native American reference. 
There won't be any shooting stars over Pleasant Mountain anytime soon! Again, a Native American reference; for you white people - An Indian shooting a star on a tottsie roll pop is good luck.

Ghesh, where di you guys go to school Harvard?

Granite1 you still got it. 






						indian shooting star tootsie pop - Bing
					

Find high-quality images, photos, and animated GIFS with Bing Images




					www.bing.com


----------



## Granite1 (Sep 16, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> I guess Mt. Osceola will have to go too?


Kancamagus higway gone, Passaconaway gone - will they tear down the giant statue of him in Lawrence, MA? No more Winnipesauke or Winnisquam???


BodeMiller1 said:


> Please change Shawnee Peak to Pleasant Mountain.  This is a simple name switch - a roo
> Poor Tecumseh-panther across the sky-must be shedding tears. This is a Native American reference.
> There won't be any shooting stars over Pleasant Mountain anytime soon! Again, a Native American reference; for you white people - An Indian shooting a star on a tottsie roll pop is good luck.
> 
> ...


http://


----------



## drjeff (Sep 16, 2022)

For supporters of the Storm Skiing Podcast, Stuart just dropped an interview with Steve Wright! Should be available to the general public typically in 2 ot 3 days


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

Granite1 said:


> Kancamagus higway gone, Passaconaway gone - will they tear down the giant statue of him in Lawrence, MA? No more Winnipesauke or Winnisquam???
> 
> http://


When did those names change?


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Think he is possessed by Bodemiller1


Seems like it….almost an alter ego.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

Update: the deal is approved by the Court.









						Federal Judge signs off on Jay Peak Resort sale
					

The sale of Jay Peak Resort to a Utah-based company is officially approved. A federal judge signs off on the deal.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## cdskier (Sep 16, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Update: the deal is approved by the Court.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Slightly more detailed article (although still no mention of who the other 2 bidders were)...also mentions that Burke might even be sold soon...









						As judge OKs $76 million sale of Jay Peak Resort, receiver says Burke Mountain Resort could soon be sold
					

Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed receiver overseeing Jay Peak, provided a glimpse Friday into last week’s closed-door, daylong auction for the ski area, including that it encompassed 48 separate bidding rounds.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

As judge OKs $76 million sale of Jay Peak Resort, receiver says Burke Mountain Resort could soon be sold
					

Michael Goldberg, the court-appointed receiver overseeing Jay Peak, provided a glimpse Friday into last week’s closed-door, daylong auction for the ski area, including that it encompassed 48 separate bidding rounds.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Slightly more detailed article (although still no mention of who the other 2 bidders were)...also mentions that Burke might even be sold soon...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes.  You beat me to it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2022)

cdskier said:


> also mentions that Burke might even be sold soon...



I bid $1; _The Price Is Righ_t style.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2022)

From ~$350 Million in government-program funding to worth $75M after fees.  Yup, sounds bout' right!


----------



## kbroderick (Sep 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> From ~$350 Million in government-program funding to worth $75M after fees.  Yup, sounds bout' right!


That seems more like a ski industry issue than a government funding issue, although the two overlap in this case. I can think of other cases where someone invested a bunch of cash and greatly improved the physical plant only to get pennies on the dollar in resale value.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> From ~$350 Million in government-program funding to worth $75M after fees.  Yup, sounds bout' right!


The VTD article is reporting that the investors will get about 40 cents on the dollar back.  Better than nothing but still a bath. No word on the green cards.


----------



## Not Sure (Sep 17, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The VTD article is reporting that the investors will get about 40 cents on the dollar back.  Better than nothing but still a bath. No word on the green cards.


Green cards are obsolete


----------



## drjeff (Sep 17, 2022)

Not Sure said:


> Green cards are obsolete


Unless you want to go to Martha's Vineyard...


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2022)

Update. There’s some interesting tidbits in here.  









						No Immediate Changes Planned for Jay Peak
					

SAM Magazine—Jay, Vt., Sept. 22, 2022—Pacific Group Resorts Inc. (PGRI) does not plan to make any immediate changes to Jay Peak’s pass products, management




					www.saminfo.com


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 23, 2022)

wow listening to current management and customers.  there's a novel idea...  (Katz and whats her name we're looking at you with that sarcasm)


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 23, 2022)

Isn't the name Gunstock kind of aggressive, not to mention Cannon? I'm working on my ESG score today so, I'll just throw this out there.

What about Cannon Mountain to Butterfly ridge.

I think Gunstock should just be closed down. It's just so triggering...


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 23, 2022)

Jay Peak is okay, until you know the history. What about Jay Place.


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 23, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> wow listening to current management and customers.  there's a novel idea...  (Katz and whats her name we're looking at you with that sarcasm)


Having been in a Peak Resorts to Vail transfer, I can affirm that in their first year of ownership, Vail made almost no changes and just observed the vibe of the place. Major changes began in their second year.  If PGRI is smart, I assume they'll do similar with Jay.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 23, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Jay Peak is okay, until you know the history. What about Jay Place.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 23, 2022)

joshua segal said:


> Having been in a Peak Resorts to Vail transfer, I can affirm that in their first year of ownership, Vail made almost no changes and just observed the vibe of the place. Major changes began in their second year.  If PGRI is smart, I assume they'll do similar with Jay.


Yeah, but, throw us Ragged loyals a bone! No reciprocal passes? Please. Please. Please. Please.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 23, 2022)

they could at least throw you a few days


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2022)

They will.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 23, 2022)

The “real” new owners.

Spoiler alert: it’s the guys themselves at Pacific   Group apparently.  









						Park City resort group acquires Jay Peak Resort for $76 million
					

Park City-based Pacific Group Resorts made the highest bid to buy the northern Vermont ski resort Jay Peak this week.




					www.kpcw.org


----------



## Abubob (Sep 23, 2022)

Right! Cause who from around here would drive over *TWO HOURS* just to ski?

Here being central NH.


----------



## joshua segal (Sep 24, 2022)

Abubob said:


> Yeah, but, throw us Ragged loyals a bone! No reciprocal passes? Please. Please. Please. Please.


If I remember right, the first year Vail took over Peak, our passes were only good at other areas that were acquired when Vail acquired Peak. Mergers, whether airlines, phone companies or ski areas, are a crap shoot for the customers. While I agree with abubob, history is not on his side.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 24, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The “real” new owners.
> 
> Spoiler alert: it’s the guys themselves at Pacific   Group apparently.
> 
> ...



Nice find.

As I've mentioned before in how they manage Ragged, PG knows who they are, who they aren't, and they don't pretend to be something they're not. They've been good stewards I would be confident the Jay Peak that people love isn't going anywhere.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The “real” new owners.
> 
> Spoiler alert: it’s the guys themselves at Pacific   Group apparently.
> 
> ...


Isn't that typically how this is done in the ski industry. It seems like these operators all purchase these resort under a new company name / subsidiary that falls under the umbrella corporation. For example, Vail Resorts, Inc. owns Stowe Mountain Resort under a subsidiary called VR US Holdings II LLC. Okemo is the same thing, with it being owned by Okemo LLC.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 26, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Isn't that typically how this is done in the ski industry. It seems like these operators all purchase these resort under a new company name / subsidiary that falls under the umbrella corporation. For example, Vail Resorts, Inc. owns Stowe Mountain Resort under a subsidiary called VR US Holdings II LLC. Okemo is the same thing, with it being owned by Okemo LLC.


My point was more along the lines of where these guys are getting their money. I was not sure if they had some investors behind them. Apparently that is not the case. Unless their backers truly are “silent” investors not to be disclosed to the press.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> My point was more along the lines of where these guys are getting their money. I was not sure if they had some investors behind them. Apparently that is not the case. Unless their backers truly are “silent” investors not to be disclosed to the press.


That make sense. I thought you were going down the line of how Aspen's owners are involved with Alterra.


----------



## Abubob (Sep 26, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> My point was more along the lines of where these guys are getting their money. I was not sure if they had some investors behind them. Apparently that is not the case. Unless their backers truly are “silent” investors not to be disclosed to the press.


----------



## MidnightJester (Sep 29, 2022)

Jay peak president speaks about the Jay peak sale and the future direction the mountain would like to go









						Jay Peak's President Discusses The Future Of The Mountain
					

Jay Peak Resort in Vermont has been one of the hottest ski industry topics over the past couple of months. Following the approved $76 million sale of Jay Peak to Pacific Group Resorts, Inc., NBC 5 …




					unofficialnetworks.com


----------



## mbedle (Sep 29, 2022)

Number one redeemed resort on the Indy Pass since Jay Peak signed on with them. Never would have guessed that.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 29, 2022)

Nice little interview and the reporter was knowledgeable.

I had no idea Jay has so much ancillary infrastructure (hotels, restaurants, ice rink, etc). I literally haven't been there since 1995. The price tag makes a little more sense to me now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> Nice little interview and the reporter was knowledgeable.
> 
> I had no idea Jay has so much ancillary infrastructure (hotels, restaurants, ice rink, etc). I literally haven't been there since 1995. The price tag makes a little more sense to me now.


Yes.  They have A LOT of amenities.


----------



## BodeMiller1 (Sep 30, 2022)

Jay Peak has the Montreal and Quebec markets within driving distance. This and only this is what allows them to build out the amenities like rock stars...


----------



## Abubob (Sep 30, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Jay Peak has the Montreal and Quebec markets within driving distance. This and only this is what allows them to build out the amenities like rock stars...


That may be true. But wasn't it EB-5 money that built the hotels and water park in the first place?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 30, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Jay Peak has the Montreal and Quebec markets within driving distance. This and only this is what allows them to build out the amenities like rock stars...



yes, its proximity to montreal, not the massive fraud. you figured it out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Jay Peak has the Montreal and Quebec markets within driving distance. This and only this is what allows them to build out the amenities like rock stars...


You completely skipped over that little EB-5 thing......


----------



## Abubob (Sep 30, 2022)

> BodeMiller1 said:
> 
> 
> > Jay Peak has the Montreal and Quebec markets within driving distance. This and only this is what allows them to build out the amenities like rock stars...





thetrailboss said:


> You completely skipped over that little EB-5 thing......


The real question is can that market now sustain all that?

.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

Abubob said:


> The real question is can that market now sustain all that?
> 
> .


Exactly.  We will see.  It was held up by fraud between 2008 and 2016 and then the Feds between 2016 and 2022.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2022)

Abubob said:


> The real question is can that market now sustain all that?
> 
> .


Exactly.  We will see.  It was held up by fraud between 2008 and 2016 and then the Feds between 2016 and 2022.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 30, 2022)

Abubob said:


> The real question is can that market now sustain all that?
> 
> .



As I understand it, the Hockey Rink there is prety much booked up with tournaments year round (atleast on weekends) since the draw of the waterpark for after the tournament games are over for the day is very popular with the younger hockey players (and a few of their parents who I know have been to tournaments with their kids there in the past) , so it seems like those parts are sustainable.

I have yet to check out their golf course, but from a colleague of mine who owns a condo up at Jay as is a golfer, he tells me that it's a solid course, and not one that you just play once to say you've played it, but one that you want to come back and play many times, so that certainly is another thing to draw people there during the non ski season months


----------



## machski (Sep 30, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  We will see.  It was held up by fraud between 2008 and 2016 and then the Feds between 2016 and 2022.


Assuming they are not carrying a ton of debt (I recall the buyer did have to assume some level of debt at purchase) on the infrastructure, I believe the market can carry all of it.  They have dialed up the sport tournaments for the ice rink and soccer fields, have a lot of summer music events and the golf course is superb (my BIL lives in St. Albans and takes a few trips to play Jay each year, including stays there.  He says it is well played).  We have been over to the water park from St. Albans off ski season too and it is fairly well utilized off season as well.


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## mbedle (Sep 30, 2022)

Jay Peak had it most profitably year last season, so I would say that they are in really good shape financially going forward. Also, they have absolutely no debt in relation to all of the EB-5 projects or tram repairs. All of the subcontractors for that work have either settled or been paid. Given that they haven't had any major capital improvements in a while, I would assume the debt passed onto the new owner will be minimum.


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## machski (Oct 1, 2022)

mbedle said:


> Jay Peak had it most profitably year last season, so I would say that they are in really good shape financially going forward. Also, they have absolutely no debt in relation to all of the EB-5 projects or tram repairs. All of the subcontractors for that work have either settled or been paid. Given that they haven't had any major capital improvements in a while, I would assume the debt passed onto the new owner will be minimum.


IIRC, the debt assumption by the buyer was either $5 or 6 million.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 3, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> Jay Peak has the Montreal and Quebec markets within driving distance. *This and only this is what allows them to build out the amenities like rock stars.*..


Tell me you know nothing about Jay Peak's history without telling me you know nothing about Jay Peak's history.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 3, 2022)

It would be interesting to know how all the grift amenities of Jay Peak each do on their own two feet.  The golf course is very nice, but I dont see it swamped either, so it would be interesting to know if it's profitable or just break even or so.  The other thing with golf is if you're not decently profitable little things start to deteriorate over time (trap edge cutting, tee box maintenance, fertilizing, pest control) which can slowly begin to weigh.  The hockey rink definitely seems to do a pretty good business & anecdotally I've heard does quite well with Canuck tournaments - makes sense given how close it is to Canada.  As for the waterpark, I wonder, as I've noticed not everything is always open & they're often doing promos.


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Tell me you know nothing about Jay Peak's history without telling me you know nothing about Jay Peak's history.


History is the past. How about this one. Sugar Loaf doesn't get snow until March and makes a good part of there money with people from Europe. 

Did you know Mt Washington has only bee skied by one guy. Google is your enemy. It will lead you into error.

I challenge you to a ski - off.


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## Abubob (Oct 3, 2022)

BodeMiller1 said:


> History is the past. How about this one. Sugar Loaf doesn't get snow until March and makes a good part of there money with people from Europe.
> 
> Did you know Mt Washington has only bee skied by one guy. Google is your enemy. It will lead you into error.
> 
> I challenge you to a ski - off.


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 3, 2022)

Abubob said:


>


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 3, 2022)

dont sell yourself short judge, you're a tremendous slouch


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## JPTracker (Oct 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> It would be interesting to know how all the grift amenities of Jay Peak each do on their own two feet.  The golf course is very nice, but I dont see it swamped either, so it would be interesting to know if it's profitable or just break even or so.  The other thing with golf is if you're not decently profitable little things start to deteriorate over time (trap edge cutting, tee box maintenance, fertilizing, pest control) which can slowly begin to weigh.  The hockey rink definitely seems to do a pretty good business & anecdotally I've heard does quite well with Canuck tournaments - makes sense given how close it is to Canada.  As for the waterpark, I wonder, as I've noticed not everything is always open & they're often doing promos.


You can't really look at each of the amenities on it's own. The hockey is doing well because the water park makes it very attractable because it gives the kids something to do besides hockey. Hockey also books a lot of room in the hotels, which bring in money, no to mention the restaurants.


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## drjeff (Oct 4, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> It would be interesting to know how all the grift amenities of Jay Peak each do on their own two feet.  The golf course is very nice, but I dont see it swamped either, so it would be interesting to know if it's profitable or just break even or so.  The other thing with golf is if you're not decently profitable little things start to deteriorate over time (trap edge cutting, tee box maintenance, fertilizing, pest control) which can slowly begin to weigh.  The hockey rink definitely seems to do a pretty good business & anecdotally I've heard does quite well with Canuck tournaments - makes sense given how close it is to Canada.  As for the waterpark, I wonder, as I've noticed not everything is always open & they're often doing promos.



One thing to consider with golf course operations, is for many courses, a "busy" day may be only 200 to 250 golfers ( figure with the typical 10 minute starting times intervals that you can get 24 people an hour out on a golf course) so it doesn't take 1000's of people a day to get the volume a course needs to stay profitable.

Additionally, from a maintenance staff standpoint, often a ski resort owned golf course will allow them to keep more staff emplyed year round, and often its the staff that make snow, run and maintain lifts, operate the cats/snow plows, etc, so that can make it an attractive thing for the resort to allow them to keep some employees on a year round basis who are serve highly needed rolls. And often the skill sets to perform these jobs have a bunch of cross over between operating large machinery, or working on and operating the irrigation system (large pumps moving pressurized water through miles of pipes) 

Agree though that the cost to operate a course, and keep the turf in a healthy state, has certainly gone up this past year with what has happened to the cost of fertilizer in particuliar.

I know the superintendent of the course I belong to in CT, made an almost 30% increase in the line item for fertilizer costs for next season over this year in the preliminary budget he submitted to our board for next season


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## Abubob (Oct 4, 2022)

Not that the courses themselves compare but I wonder. Under PMRI the course tanked at Ragged and is currently unused. That probably has more to do with the idea that nobody I’ve ever talked to about Ragged’s golf course had anything good to say. My question might be is it because it would have cost too much to fix Ragged’s course or PMRI’s disinterest in a golf course?

…


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## drjeff (Oct 4, 2022)

Abubob said:


> Not that the courses themselves compare but I wonder. Under PMRI the course tanked at Ragged and is currently unused. That probably has more to do with the idea that nobody I’ve ever talked to about Ragged’s golf course had anything good to say. My question might be is it because it would have cost too much to fix Ragged’s course or PMRI’s disinterest in a golf course?
> 
> …


I actually played the Ragged golf course when I was open well over a decade ago.  I like tough, funky golf courses, I really do.  The one at Ragged was probably the funkiest that I have played in the 40+ years I have been a golfer. Just wasn't really sure what the architect was thinking with the layout of a majority of the holes with respect to making it fair and playable given how the majority of golfers games are.  And it wasn't the type of course I got the feeling where if you played it a few more times and really got your target lines down that it would become more enjoyable.  Just way too many things because of the design/layout that could have a good shot ending up as a lost ball out of bounds or in a hazard, that was very apparent 

Secondly, Ragged's location, seemed to be a bit of a negative for the success of the golf course, as it's just far enough from the Concord area and just far enough from both Winnipesaukee and Sunapee that folks either living or vacationing in those area have to drive by numerous other courses.  Jay seems to be much more of a destination resort than Ragged is, and therefore I am guessing will be able to keep a greater number of rounds played per year than Ragged could from what I understand.


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## NYDB (Oct 4, 2022)

Golf is generally in a death spiral overall, despite the temporary bump in popularity during covid. 

from 30 million participants in 2006 to 24 million in 2018. (USA only)

I've never played ragged but the weirdest golf course I've ever played was tater hill in VT.  (now closed).  the back 9 had some strange holes.  

I can't beleive the Jay course makes a 'profit' in the traditional sense.


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## JPTracker (Nov 1, 2022)

It's final:
https://open.substack.com/pub/skiin...ts?r=avtv1&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email


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## VTKilarney (Nov 9, 2022)

I’m worried that the new owners don’t understand the market.


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## cdskier (Nov 9, 2022)

That's a somewhat underwhelming list of wines to be honest...


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## Newpylong (Nov 9, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 55007I’m worried that the new owners don’t understand the market.



The new owners would have had absolutely zero to do with this level of micromanagement.

I will tell you what they do at Ragged: "Erik, we approve your operating budget but aren't going to be able to fund all of the Cap Ex, split it up over 3 years".

It won't be any different up there, the details are trusted to management.


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 9, 2022)

Worth noting that with this sale now complete, all of those assets have been written way down in value such that if they are just covering their operating costs, they are profitable.  Everything PGRI acquired had likely been on the book sat over $200M in value.  With that written down to $75M, everything gets a clean start.


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## fbrissette (Nov 9, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 55007I’m worried that the new owners don’t understand the market.


This has been scheduled way before the finale sale was completed and is a special one evening event.  If the food is good,  I think it is fairly priced.


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## Abubob (Nov 9, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> I’m worried that the new owners don’t understand the market.


The new owners haven’t changed a thing yet. Give it some time for Pete’s sake.


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## AdironRider (Nov 9, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 55007I’m worried that the new owners don’t understand the market.


I’m thinking you don’t understand the ski market


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## NYDB (Nov 9, 2022)

spoiler alert - the dirty hippies all have trust funds.  they like fine wines and  beef tenderloin


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## drjeff (Nov 9, 2022)

Pretty sure there a plenty of Jay 2nd homeowners and/or well enough off primary home retirees and locals to fill a restaurant for a "special offering" meal like that.

Heck, 4-6 times per year, pre Vail ownership, Mount Snow did 4 to 5 course beer pairing dinners for about $100 a head that would sell out, and very often with a high percentage of repeat customers.


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## Abubob (Nov 10, 2022)

I knew this day would come!

BREAKING NEWS: This is the moment you have been waiting for... 

We are proud to officially welcome @jaypeakresort to the PGRI family of resorts! 

Reciprocal benefits with your Ragged Mountain season pass for this upcoming winter are as follows: 
• Four (4) complimentary lift tickets for the 2022-23 season - Blackout dates apply.
• 50% off additional day tickets for passholders
• 25% off day tickets for accompanying guests of passholders
• 15% off lodging and Waterpark Vacation packages - Restrictions apply.

Jay Peak is known far and wide for its deep roots, cultural cachet, and 356 inches of average annual snowfall. The four-season resort features 385 acres of skiing and snowboarding, nine lifts, an indoor waterpark, ice arena, recreation center, athletic fields, and an 18-hole championship golf course. A wide range of dining and lodging options cater to all types of visitors, and their prodigious snowfall is the most of any resort east of the Rocky Mountains. 
#jaypeak| #thelegendofjay | #jayway | #welcome


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## thebigo (Nov 10, 2022)

Abubob said:


> I knew this day would come!
> 
> BREAKING NEWS: This is the moment you have been waiting for...
> 
> ...



blackout dates: December 26 - 31, 2022, January 14-15, and February 18-20, 2023

four days sounds about right, 2X weekends or a long one. Ragged coaches were talking about renting a floor in the hotel for a long weekend after our season ends, should be a good time for the kids.


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## Abubob (Nov 10, 2022)

thebigo said:


> blackout dates: December 26 - 31, 2022, January 14-15, and February 18-20, 2023


School vacation weeks. Before the woods get filled in, Dec and Jan kinda of a no go anyway.


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## snoseek (Nov 10, 2022)

Good deal for you ragged people especially if you bought early!


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 10, 2022)

plenty of tree skiing at jay in a normal january


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## Abubob (Nov 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> plenty of tree skiing at jay in a normal january


In that case I’m hoping for a “normal” January …  … that‘s when it only snows and not anything else. Right?


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## mister moose (Nov 10, 2022)

Abubob said:


> In that case I’m hoping for a “normal” January …  … that‘s when it only snows and *not anything else*. Right?


That's a lucky January.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 10, 2022)

Abubob said:


> In that case I’m hoping for a “normal” January


Summary of a normal January in NE

1st week…Skating the ice rink left after the annual Christmas rainstorm
2nd week…Big storm on the way, gonna dump (turns to rain the day before)
3rd week…Big storm coming again…(Snows 2 inches and Facebooks best meteorologist calls it a powder day but wishes it was a sleet day instead)
4th week…One warm, sunny day and back to the ice rink (better get those skis tuned)

Then we all say maybe February will be better


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## Abubob (Nov 10, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> Summary of a normal January in NE
> 
> 1st week…Skating the ice rink left after the annual Christmas rainstorm
> 2nd week…Big storm on the way, gonna dump (turns to rain the day before)
> ...


Yeah, I didn’t really want to say it.
.


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## Kingslug20 (Nov 11, 2022)

Had 4 good pow days in Jan last year..then it sucked so I escaped to JH


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## thetrailboss (Nov 14, 2022)

It will be interesting to see how things go this season at Jay.


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## LONGBOARDR (Nov 17, 2022)

Been snowing enough for a hike to the summit tomorrow
next week looks promising as well


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 17, 2022)

these guys seemed to get pretty lucky: 



 (new)


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## LONGBOARDR (Nov 18, 2022)

Nice hike to the summit
Flurries and good amount of elevation snow
great first day on skis, snow was nice
Off to a good start


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 18, 2022)

LONGBOARDR said:


> Nice hike to the summit
> Flurries and good amount of elevation snow
> great first day on skis, snow was nice
> Off to a good start


how much snow have they gotten? i know that buffalo and west NY have gotten dumped with several feet of snow.


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## Vter (Nov 18, 2022)

Why do all your FOS posts/ replays reak of shit. Stay up there in your over priced pieces of shit, crap built Toll House Condos. The people who for the most part live there Suck. Yes, as a Child I wanted to live there too. Now you got AH’s who are stuck in shit, trapped by traffic, who say hey, “when it sucks here, I’ll go to Jackson Ass Hole and stink that place up more…” fuck off, self centered asshole. I can’t stand the sight of you in Stowe, on or off the hill. Your posts stink and you F’n suck dick rich Balls arrogant MFer. Stay away from me, forever !!!


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## cdskier (Nov 18, 2022)

Vter said:


> Why do all your FOS posts/ replays reak of shit. Stay up there in your over priced pieces of shit, crap built Toll House Condos. The people who for the most part live there Suck. Yes, as a Child I wanted to live there too. Now you got AH’s who are stuck in shit, trapped by traffic, who say hey, “when it sucks here, I’ll go to Jackson Ass Hole and stink that place up more…” fuck off, self centered asshole. I can’t stand the sight of you in Stowe, on or off the hill. Your posts stink and you F’n suck dick rich Balls arrogant MFer. Stay away from me, forever !!!


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## ThatGuy (Nov 18, 2022)




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## thetrailboss (Nov 18, 2022)

Vter said:


> Why do all your FOS posts/ replays reak of shit. Stay up there in your over priced pieces of shit, crap built Toll House Condos. The people who for the most part live there Suck. Yes, as a Child I wanted to live there too. Now you got AH’s who are stuck in shit, trapped by traffic, who say hey, “when it sucks here, I’ll go to Jackson Ass Hole and stink that place up more…” fuck off, self centered asshole. I can’t stand the sight of you in Stowe, on or off the hill. Your posts stink and you F’n suck dick rich Balls arrogant MFer. Stay away from me, forever !!!


Um, what?


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 19, 2022)

Vter said:


> Why do all your FOS posts/ replays reak of shit. Stay up there in your over priced pieces of shit, crap built Toll House Condos. The people who for the most part live there Suck. Yes, as a Child I wanted to live there too. Now you got AH’s who are stuck in shit, trapped by traffic, who say hey, “when it sucks here, I’ll go to Jackson Ass Hole and stink that place up more…” fuck off, self centered asshole. I can’t stand the sight of you in Stowe, on or off the hill. Your posts stink and you F’n suck dick rich Balls arrogant MFer. Stay away from me, forever !!!


WTF does FOS stand for?   I got tired of looking throught this list :  https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FOS
Also AH's, what's that?


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 19, 2022)

AH is assholes i think. FOS i have no clue. and i think he was triggered by slugs ability to pick up and fly off to jackson when the snow sucks in vermont. hes too busy driving the plow obvs.  jealousy is a stinky cologne.


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## mbedle (Nov 19, 2022)

I believe might have been short for full of shit.


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## RH29 (Nov 19, 2022)

Isn't it great having non-existent moderation?


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## hovercraft (Nov 19, 2022)

mbedle said:


> I believe might have been short for full of shit.


I believe you are correct…..


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## Dickc (Nov 19, 2022)

Urban Dictionary: F.O.S.
					

Abreviation for "Full of Shit"




					www.urbandictionary.com
				




Urban dictionary is your friend.


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## fbrissette (Nov 19, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Um, what?


His 36 posts makes for some entertaining reading.   Colorful dude for sure.


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## fbrissette (Nov 19, 2022)

I think Vter is this guy


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## Edd (Nov 19, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> I think Vter is this guy


Legend. Because of him, I will forever call them “bankins”.


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## skiur (Nov 20, 2022)

RH29 said:


> Isn't it great having non-existent moderation?



Yes it is, moderation is not a good thing.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 20, 2022)

Better than picking and choosing who to moderate. Its the internet always going to be weirdos, just take the comments for the comedic insanity they are.


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## Edd (Nov 20, 2022)

skiur said:


> Yes it is, moderation is not a good thing.


Putting AZ aside, some forums require moderation or they'll fail financially.


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## fbrissette (Nov 20, 2022)

Edd said:


> Putting AZ aside, some forums require moderation or they'll fail financially.


Are you thinking 'twitter' here ?


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## Edd (Nov 20, 2022)

fbrissette said:


> Are you thinking 'twitter' here ?


I wasn't but that also fits.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 20, 2022)

Any forum or website that wants sponsors needs moderation to a degree.


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## JimG. (Nov 20, 2022)

Moderation.

If you don't moderate someone's feelings get hurt and they demand moderation.

When you do moderate people scream their First Amendment rights are being violated.

A total no win for moderators. I've been a moderator for close to 20 years here and I've personally never banned a user. Nothing written here bothers me so much that I need to lash out and cancel anyone. People have a right to act like fools for everyone to see. If someone doesn't like it, that's what the ignore feature is for.


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## Abubob (Nov 20, 2022)

Edd said:


> Legend. Because of him, I will forever call them “bankins”.


Didn't he get fired? and probably quietly rehired with the proviso that he never make another video about pushin' back the bankins?


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## bigbob (Nov 20, 2022)

Edd said:


> Legend. Because of him, I will forever call them “bankins”.


I heard the guy got fired after posting the video. He was just doing his job...


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## Keelhauled (Nov 20, 2022)

JimG. said:


> Moderation.
> 
> If you don't moderate someone's feelings get hurt and they demand moderation.
> 
> ...


There may be no winning, but there is definitely a way to lose.  Generally if people's feelings are getting hurt they don't make a point of sticking around for more, and the community gradually dies out.  Which I suppose for a moderator's workload is a self-solving problem, but it is discouraging to see, and I've seen it from both a user and mod point of view.  It's hard enough these days for individual message boards to survive and grow in the face of the popularity of Facebook groups; if you have a community that embraces and is allowed to embrace shit flinging instead of reasonable discourse it's basically a death sentence for getting new members at the same time as your existing community eventually schisms.


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## SteezyYeeter (Nov 20, 2022)

Vter said:


> Why do all your FOS posts/ replays reak of shit. Stay up there in your over priced pieces of shit, crap built Toll House Condos. The people who for the most part live there Suck. Yes, as a Child I wanted to live there too. Now you got AH’s who are stuck in shit, trapped by traffic, who say hey, “when it sucks here, I’ll go to Jackson Ass Hole and stink that place up more…” fuck off, self centered asshole. I can’t stand the sight of you in Stowe, on or off the hill. Your posts stink and you F’n suck dick rich Balls arrogant MFer. Stay away from me, forever !!!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2022)

Back on (the skin) track:

According to VPR, a significant amount of the amount paid by Pacific is going back to the defrauded investors. Pacific assumed about $9 million of debt in addition to the purchase price.



> *The sale of a Northeast Kingdom ski resort netted just over $67 million, according to recently filed court documents*. The sale proceeds will be distributed to investors who were defrauded by the former owner and president of Jay Peak. The resort was run by a court-appointed receiver for six years after federal regulators revealed that the former owner and president of the resort misappropriated more than $200 million from foreign investors. Pacific Group Resorts bought Jay Peak for $76 million - the Utah-based company runs several ski resorts, including Powderhorn Mountain in Colorado and Ragged Mountain in New Hampshire. The profits from the sale were about $9 million less than the purchase price because Pacific Group Resorts assumed some debts and other financial obligations.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 26, 2022)

Maybe this thread will be over once and for all.........









						Start of Jay Peak ski season marks end of chapter in EB-5 scandal
					

Lifts started spinning at Jay Peak on Friday, welcoming skiers and snowboarders. As our Calvin Cutler reports, the beginning of this ski season marks the end of a chapter from the EB-5 scandal.




					www.wcax.com


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## VTKilarney (Dec 12, 2022)

So now that the whole saga is over, I have an interesting story.

Some of you may remember that I used to post quite a bit about my suspicions that the EB-5 program at Jay Peak was a scam.  It was basically Benedict Gomez and I leading the charge - with most people thinking that we were crackpots.  We took quite a bit of heat from many of the people here.  I spent quite a bit of time doing research and it seemed incredibly obvious to me that something was wrong.  Frankly, it should have been obvious to anyone after reading our posts.

About a year before everything fell apart I got a telephone call at work from Bill Stenger.  He invited me to meet with him personally up at Jay Peak.  I took him up on his offer and he was nice enough to give me a ski pass to make the trip worthwhile.

The meeting was cordial.  It was basically an infomercial to try to convince me that everything was on the level.  He clearly did not want me posting on this forum, and the meeting was designed to convince me that I was wrong so the posting would stop.  I pretty much just listened, since I knew that he was never going to admit that my suspicions were correct.  Needless to say, he didn't change my mind.  My overall impression was that there was a level of desperation but Stenger somehow believed that they could keep the house of cards from falling.

I never asked how he figured out my actual identity, but I didn't really care since I stood by my posts and my opinions.

I would love to believe that Stenger was an innocent victim in all of this - but I really don't believe that.  Which is too bad, because during our meeting he seemed like a very likeable person and that he could have been a good ambassador for Jay Peak.


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## crank (Dec 12, 2022)

I was with you as soon as the ANC Bio thing was in play.  I wasn't really thinking scam though...just thinking there's no effing way that is happening in Newport.


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## tnt1234 (Dec 12, 2022)

VTKilarney said:


> So now that the whole saga is over, I have an interesting story.
> 
> Some of you may remember that I used to post quite a bit about my suspicions that the EB-5 program at Jay Peak was a scam.  It was basically Benedict Gomez and I leading the charge - with most people thinking that we were crackpots.  We took quite a bit of heat from many of the people here.  I spent quite a bit of time doing research and it seemed incredibly obvious to me that something was wrong.  Frankly, it should have been obvious to anyone after reading our posts.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's crazy.

I wonder how they did figure out your identity....

weird to think they were worried about people posting on a ski forum...

Any links to your old posts?  I'd be curious to see just how right you were.  I don't remember reading them in real time.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2022)

Writing from behind bars, Ariel Quiros tells judge he is ‘begging’ for a break on 5-year prison term
					

An attorney for the former Jay Peak owner has filed a motion seeking sentence reconsideration. Quiros, who was sentenced earlier this year for his role in the largest fraud case in the state’s history, also submitted a letter Tuesday, stating, “I pray for mercy, and I pray for grace.”



					vtdigger.org
				















						Austin Powers GIF - Austin Powers Dr - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


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