# Trails with absurd difficulty ratings



## bdfreetuna (Jan 5, 2013)

I'll start.

1. All double black diamonds at Stratton
2. Enchanted Forest at Magic. Rated Green. Most other eastern places would call this black just by virtue of having trees, others would call it blue for being a low angle glade. Either way, this is no place for beginners.
3. Racers Edge at Killington. Rated Black. Not sure why, it's literally flat.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2013)

Big Emma at Snowbird.  Pretty much a large meadow, but only way down on that side of the mountain.  Rated green.  It is so steep that they need a winch cat to groom it.  Yeah, greens aren't supposed to be steep.  They made it as wide as possible, but that doesn't make it less steep.

Bunker Hill at Burke is a green, but anyone who has skied it knows that it is pretty steep as well.  

And another weird configuration is the run under Gatehouse Express at Sugarbush.  It is three trails, but yet it is one straight line.  Blue at the top, black in the middle (one pitch named "Waterfall") and the blue at the bottom.


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## Puck it (Jan 5, 2013)

Blast off at Sunapee.


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## BeefyBoy50 (Jan 5, 2013)

I agree with the Big Emma one. I think it is so Snowbird can get to say they have the "most difficult green in North America" (actually heard that from ski instructors there). Another ridiculous one at Snowbird: the "easy way out" if you don't want to take Big Emma is called Snowcat Access, it is rated double black diamond. If you ski all the way to the right on big emma, you get to two "experts only" access gates. The run itself is sloped gently like a steeper green and probably 15-20 feet wide. The reason for its rating is that the run has a cliff on the left, and it does not offer much room to slow down. Were beginners to actually take the trail they would either fly off the cliff or crash into those exiting the Wilbere lift at the end of the short trail.


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## BeefyBoy50 (Jan 5, 2013)

A second one that I forgot about: Black Hole at Smuggler's Notch. I haven't skiied it myself but when any run is rated "triple black diamond" I just immediately discount it. Most ski areas use double black diamond and maybe an expert's only sign at the top of the double black diamond as a be all end all do-not-go-on-this-run unless you are sure you can do it. In MRG/ Alta / Squaw's case, they are so boss they only use a single black diamond despite having some incredibly hard trails.


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## andyzee (Jan 5, 2013)

The last part of Lower FIS at Sugarbush, should be a double black, not single.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 5, 2013)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> A second one that I forgot about: Black Hole at Smuggler's Notch. I haven't skiied it myself but when any run is rated "triple black diamond" I just immediately discount it. Most ski areas use double black diamond and maybe an expert's only sign at the top of the double black diamond as a be all end all do-not-go-on-this-run unless you are sure you can do it. In MRG/ Alta / Squaw's case, they are so boss they only use a single black diamond despite having some incredibly hard trails.



It's basically Lift Line with trees and small ledges. No point in rating it a triple diamond when you have to ski Robin's, Lift Line, or Freefall just to get to get to it. That scares most people away. Pretty much everything at Kicking Horse is rated ridiculous. Bowl Over jumps out at me the most. 35-40 degree pitch with amandatory cornice drop at the top. Blues are very steep with moguls.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 5, 2013)

Oh and I hate any mountain that uses a diamond in a blue square or green in a blue circle. Wachusett is a big culprit of this


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## Puck it (Jan 5, 2013)

There are double blues at JHMR.


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## Conrad (Jan 5, 2013)

While I wouldn't call it a grossly inaccurate trail rating, at Sunday River the last section of the blue trail Northern Lights is very steep. Also, I noticed that within the past few years, the trail called "Quantum Leap" was upgraded from a single black to a double black.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2013)

I potentially might get flame action for this, but 80% of the single black diamond trails in the Poconos.


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 5, 2013)

Funny you started this thread, I was just thinking about this yesterday. 

I've never been on this trail, or at least can't remember, but Space Walk at K. It appears as it was simply a cross-connect to the now defunct devil's fiddle quad. It was blue in 1997, now it is a double black for some reason.

I don't have a trail map in front of me but i think the name of the trail is Black Hole at Sunday River. It is very short (about 50 yards) and less steep as quantum leap, yet it is a double black. It cuts in under the Aurora quad. I remember my Mom saying a while back, when Quantum Leap was a single diamond, that it was pushing the limit of a double black, good to see they made that change because I do think that trail is too steep to be just a diamond.


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## Conrad (Jan 6, 2013)

I have to disagree with skiNEwhere on Black Hole. I would argue that Black Hole is one of the steepest trails at Sunday River, possibly even steeper than White Heat. Everything else you said about it is correct so I don't think you are talking about a different trail.

Quantum Leap, as you say, is right on the fence between being a single black and a double black. Also, Downdraft comes to mind.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I have to disagree with skiNEwhere on Black Hole. I would argue that Black Hole is one of the steepest trails at Sunday River



Do you mean that if Black Hole were at Sunday River it should be a XXX-Black Diamond?  

If not, I'm corn-fused.

FWIW, I used to have a season pass at Smuggs for about 4 or 5 years and I still go there 2 or 3 days a year and I've STILL never skied Black Hole.  Not because I dont want to, but because I really dont give a ratz azz and have only looked for it 2 or 3 times and each time failed in actually finding the dang thing.  I doubt it could be THAT much harder than Liftline anyway.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2013)

Conrad said:


> While I wouldn't call it a grossly inaccurate trail rating, at Sunday River the last section of the blue trail Northern Lights is very steep. Also, I noticed that within the past few years, the trail called "Quantum Leap" was upgraded from a single black to a double black.



Quantum has definitely been a Double Black since at least 2007.  I'd say the rating is justified for Sunday River.  It's probably the 2nd steepest pitch on the mountain next to Black Hole.  Though it's short, I really dig it when the bumps are good on it.  There's been plenty of midweek days that I wished that chair was spinning so I could lap it for a couple of hours.


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 6, 2013)

FYI, I'm talking about Black Hole at SR, not Smuggs. Black Hole is too short IMO, for that reason it just doesn't seem to have that pucker factor like quantum leap did to me when I skied both 13 years ago.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> FYI, I'm talking about Black Hole at SR, not Smuggs.



Gotcha, didnt realize SR also had a BH.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> I've never been on this trail, or at least can't remember, but Space Walk at K. It appears as it was simply a cross-connect to the now defunct devil's fiddle quad. It was blue in 1997, now it is a double black for some reason.



It probably got switched because some unassuming intermediates skied it and found themselves in a bad place crossing Outer Limits and having to ski the bottom of Devil's Fiddle.   From a skier safety standpoint, it makes sense for a trail like Space Walk to have at least a Double Black rating.  Only people with the ability to handle OL or DF should be on that trail.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> FYI, I'm talking about Black Hole at SR, not Smuggs. Black Hole is too short IMO, for that reason it just doesn't seem to have that pucker factor like quantum leap did to me when I skied both 13 years ago.



It's definitely short, but it's for certain the steepest pitch on the mountain with very little "ladies tee" options. If you hug skiers right of Quantum Leap, the pitch is a bit more mellow. Black Hole doesn't have "pucker factor" for most when it's groomed, but it certainly would for an intermediate when it has bumps despite being very short. 

If I had to rate Steepest Trails at Sunday River it would probably go:

1. Black Hole
2. Quantum Leap
3. Upper Vortex
4. White Heat
5. Shockwave


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 6, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> It probably got switched because some unassuming intermediates skied it and found themselves in a bad place crossing Outer Limits and having to ski the bottom of Devil's Fiddle.   From a skier safety standpoint, it makes sense for a trail like Space Walk to have at least a Double Black rating.  Only people with the ability to handle OL or DF should be on that trail.



ah, I guess that makes sense, at least from a liability standpoint. Since the DF quad is gone now, they could probably revert that back though. If anything, they should for safety reasons. If a relatively new skier ended up on the trail and was like "that was a double black, that wasn't that hard", they may get false confidence and end up on a "real" double-black and get hurt.



deadheadskier said:


> It's definitely short, but it's for certain the steepest pitch on the mountain with very little "ladies tee" options. If you hug skiers right of Quantum Leap, the pitch is a bit more mellow. Black Hole doesn't have "pucker factor" for most when it's groomed, but it certainly would for an intermediate when it has bumps despite being very short.
> 
> If I had to rate Steepest Trails at Sunday River it would probably go:
> 
> ...



I think BH was groomed when I went on it, maybe that's why I did not find it indicative of double-black status. I would put shockwave and quantum leap tied for second though, because even though QL might be a tad steeper, the double-fall line on SW can make skiing down it more difficult.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2013)

Could be right on Shockwave being tied with QL for steepness, it's just kind of hard to judge because it somewhat shelves between sections of being very steep and others not so steep.  Any trail that's steep enough to slide, is pretty steep.  They had an "avalanche" on Shockwave a few years back.  Actually, I think I recall Black Hole having a slide in recent years as well. Personally, I think Shockwave is the most difficult trail on the mountain due to the double-fall line as you mentioned.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 6, 2013)

andyzee said:


> The last part of Lower FIS at Sugarbush, should be a double black, not single.



This trail was originally a blue square, until a couple decades ago or maybe more.


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## cannonist (Jan 6, 2013)

Ruby Palace has got to be in the top five at SR, its underratedly steep.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> I agree with the Big Emma one. I think it is so Snowbird can get to say they have the "most difficult green in North America" (actually heard that from ski instructors there). Another ridiculous one at Snowbird: the "easy way out" if you don't want to take Big Emma is called Snowcat Access, it is rated double black diamond. If you ski all the way to the right on big emma, you get to two "experts only" access gates. The run itself is sloped gently like a steeper green and probably 15-20 feet wide. The reason for its rating is that the run has a cliff on the left, and it does not offer much room to slow down. Were beginners to actually take the trail they would either fly off the cliff or crash into those exiting the Wilbere lift at the end of the short trail.



They call that run "Death Road" for a reason....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> This trail was originally a blue square, until a couple decades ago or maybe more.



I think Lower FIS at Sugarbush is appropriate at a single black.  It pales in comparison to the skill needed to ski Upper FIS or Paradise.


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## bobbutts (Jan 6, 2013)

I was going to say Valley Run at Waterville being blue instead of green, but it looks like they have changed it to green.  (haven't skied there in many years).
I'd disagree about the double blacks at Stratton, they are clearly more difficult vs. Stratton's single blacks.  They could change most of their blacks to blues, and then change the double blacks to single, then the ratings would be more in line with other resorts in Vermont.  But the rating system is supposed to be compared to other trails at the same resort, so for me Stratton does just fine at rating them.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 6, 2013)

Well, if Green= Easiest, Blue= More Difficult, and Black= Most Difficult , then we have a relative system for those.

However Double Black= Experts Only (or Extreme), and therefore this is not relative terminology. Experts are the same no matter where they are. Extreme is extreme.

Some ski areas simply do not have any expert terrain.. like I would argue with Stratton.. so maybe they should change a lot of their blacks to blues and then all double blacks to single blacks.


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## Conrad (Jan 6, 2013)

While many of the steepest trails at Sunday River have been noted above, one trail that hasn't been mentioned is Chutzpah which has one part where you have to ski down an ice cliff (maybe 15-30 feet drop). You don't have to jump in the air to do it, but it is very technical. If any trail truly deserves an experts only rating at Sunday River, it is Chutzpah. Also, Ruby Palace, as mentioned above, has one very technical section and is pretty steep overall.


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 6, 2013)

Conrad said:


> While many of the steepest trails at Sunday River have been noted above, one trail that hasn't been mentioned is Chutzpah which has one part where you have to ski down an ice cliff (maybe 15-30 feet drop). You don't have to jump in the air to do it, but it is very technical. If any trail truly deserves an experts only rating at Sunday River, it is Chutzpah. Also, Ruby Palace, as mentioned above, has one very technical section and is pretty steep overall.



Of the 10 or so times I've been to SR, that trail has NEVER been open. It's always looked pretty icy too


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## 4aprice (Jan 6, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> I potentially might get flame action for this, but 80% of the single black diamond trails in the Poconos.



No flaming but the Pokes have some legitimate steep shots.  They're just short but sweet.  Cliffhanger is the only double black at CBK and I agree its not more then a single.  Hump is actually the steepest but short.  I think the double black rating as some one mentioned before is more to keep people away from it though its a fun ski.  I will say this a bumped up Tunk at Elk, Challange at Blue, and Asp at Camelback are fairly challanging and deserving of a diamond.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## RISkier (Jan 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Big Emma at Snowbird.  Pretty much a large meadow, but only way down on that side of the mountain.  Rated green.  It is so steep that they need a winch cat to groom it.  Yeah, greens aren't supposed to be steep.  They made it as wide as possible, but that doesn't make it less steep.
> 
> Bunker Hill at Burke is a green, but anyone who has skied it knows that it is pretty steep as well.
> 
> And another weird configuration is the run under Gatehouse Express at Sugarbush.  It is three trails, but yet it is one straight line.  Blue at the top, black in the middle (one pitch named "Waterfall") and the blue at the bottom.



I don't remember Big Emma being steep enough to require a winch cat, but I trust you're correct. Definitely not a beginner trail. I've only skied Snowbird once. I'd only call myself an upper intermediate and went there on a day when visibility was very low. Recall seeing cliff signs all over. Overall I found it just a very steep and in your face mountain. If I could have seen past the tips of my skis I likely would have enjoyed it more. Between the terrain, the low visibility, and not knowing where I was going I found it a tough day. I need to go back but keep driving by to ski Alta which seems much more friendly to someone like me.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

RISkier said:


> I don't remember Big Emma being steep enough to require a winch cat, but I trust you're correct. Definitely not a beginner trail. I've only skied Snowbird once. I'd only call myself an upper intermediate and went there on a day when visibility was very low. Recall seeing cliff signs all over. Overall I found it just a very steep and in your face mountain. If I could have seen past the tips of my skis I likely would have enjoyed it more. Between the terrain, the low visibility, and not knowing where I was going I found it a tough day. I need to go back but keep driving by to ski Alta which seems much more friendly to someone like me.



There is an anchor and cable at the top for a winch cat. It may be to help out in early season when they push machine made snow around, but whenever I've skied on that run it's been pretty obvious that the cable has been used.

Alta is a lot of fun.  The trail skiing is very nice.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

Pretty much anything off of White Cap at Sunday River is steep and Chutzpah has never been open when I've been there.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 7, 2013)

Ripsaw at Loon is a "double black diamond" - it would be considered a challenging blue in Northern VT


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## powhunter (Jan 7, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> It probably got switched because some unassuming intermediates skied it and found themselves in a bad place crossing Outer Limits and having to ski the bottom of Devil's Fiddle. From a skier safety standpoint, it makes sense for a trail like Space Walk to have at least a Double Black rating. Only people with the ability to handle OL or DF should be on that trail.



Yea same with Racers edge...Traverses Highline and Concussion

Steveo


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## Cannonball (Jan 7, 2013)

True Grit at Waterville.  While it does have some pitch.  Any trail that is a 100 yards wide, perfectly straight, and usually groomed can't be a double black.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> While many of the steepest trails at Sunday River have been noted above, one trail that hasn't been mentioned is Chutzpah which has one part where you have to ski down an ice cliff (maybe 15-30 feet drop). You don't have to jump in the air to do it, but it is very technical. If any trail truly deserves an experts only rating at Sunday River, it is Chutzpah. Also, Ruby Palace, as mentioned above, has one very technical section and is pretty steep overall.



Nothing marked at Sunday River should be labeled as experts only. I have never skied Chutzpah but judging by what I have seen from the lift and pictures, I think your description of it is so far off the mark.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 7, 2013)

WWF-VT said:


> Ripsaw at Loon is a "double black diamond" - it would be considered a challenging blue in Northern VT



I don't understand why this is a double. When Upper Flume and Triple Trouble bump up they are much harder than that trail.


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## Conrad (Jan 7, 2013)

Here is the only picture I could find of Chutzpah:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rdnaski/497051759/


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## Smellytele (Jan 7, 2013)

One day a trail may ski like a blue while another day is has the difficulty of a double black. They try to rate them on an average and also how they compare to others at that particular ski area. I don't think there is a governmental ski trail rater.


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 7, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> I don't think there is a governmental ski trail rater.



Sssshhh! Don't give the state any ideas


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Here is the only picture I could find of Chutzpah:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rdnaski/497051759/



Looks fun. Any trail that has exposed ledge action could probably be a legit double D.


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## hammer (Jan 7, 2013)

I noticed that Attitash/Bear Peak changed all of their double blacks to single blacks on the trail map (signs are still double black).  Thought they also changed Illusion from a black to a blue.


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## Tin (Jan 7, 2013)

Stratton has some legit double blacks but most are not. Why Not? is a glade with a nice 4-8' ledge going across it and has some pitch, the lower section of Test Pilot, and Free Fall gets really bumped up and tough late in the year.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 7, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> Looks fun. Any trail that has exposed ledge action could probably be a legit double D.



I guess when you compare it to other mountains, then yea it should be a double black. I don't think a trail should be adouble diamond just because it has a rock ledge. If you can easily avoid it then it should be a single. Upper Exhibition at Smugglers comes to mind. Like I said, I've never skied it but I don't think an avoidable rock ledge should bump it up.


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## SKI-3PO (Jan 7, 2013)

Grizzly Bear and Upper Spruce at Stratton


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## abc (Jan 7, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> Well, if Green= Easiest, Blue= More Difficult, and Black= Most Difficult , then we have a relative system for those.
> 
> However Double Black= Experts Only (or Extreme), and therefore this is not relative terminology. Experts are the same no matter where they are. Extreme is extreme.
> 
> Some ski areas simply do not have any expert terrain.. like I would argue with Stratton.. so maybe they should change a lot of their blacks to blues and then all double blacks to single blacks.


I agree on the double black part but  disagree regarding the green/blue/black part. 

There's some value on what a "gree" should be in general. And blue, and black. But beyond what a "typical black" is, double/triple or whatever symbol a mountain use to indicate "expert" terrain, should indeed be truely expert. Stratton doesn't really have any true "expert" terrain. There're easy blacks and more challenging blacks. But they're not double blacks because it's really not expert terrain.

People need to keep in mind "trail difficulty ratings are RELATIVE!". Stratton just doesn't have the kind of terrain Jackson Hole, Taos or Aspen has. And people just need to realize that.

Just as they need to remember the day after rain followed by hard freeze, every slope will be expert only!


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 7, 2013)

I have a large collection of vintage trail maps and ski brochures. I remember one place in the Midwest had one or more "quadruple black diamond" runs. I LOL'd at this even as a kid when I was collecting these.

Gotta see if I can dig that up.


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## riverc0il (Jan 8, 2013)

WWF-VT said:


> Ripsaw at Loon is a "double black diamond" - it would be considered a challenging blue in Northern VT


Like at Bolton?


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## riverc0il (Jan 8, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Here is the only picture I could find of Chutzpah:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rdnaski/497051759/


http://www.thesnowway.com/tsw/wp-content/uploads/1999/03/glade1.jpg

http://www.thesnowway.com/tsw/wp-content/uploads/1999/03/glade2.jpg

http://www.thesnowway.com/tsw/wp-content/uploads/1999/03/ski3.jpg

Though none of those have that cliff band. I can't remember it too well as it has been over a dozen years since I was last in there, but that cliff band is pretty much near the end of the skiable vert (which isn't much) of that "glade" and you can cut out before it.


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## riverc0il (Jan 8, 2013)

Cannonball said:


> Any trail that is a 100 yards wide, perfectly straight, and usually groomed can't be a double black.


Try telling that to Sunday River and Sugarloaf. :lol: And Stowe, they mark Liftline and National as doubles, right?


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## Conrad (Jan 8, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Though none of those have that cliff band. I can't remember it too well as it has been over a dozen years since I was last in there, but that cliff band is pretty much near the end of the skiable vert (which isn't much) of that "glade" and you can cut out before it.



That's right, early on you can chose to stay to the left and get back on the trail or you can chose to keep going straight in to it. Once you get to the cliff (which is not visible to the chairlift), there is no going around it (otherwise I'm sure I would have when I was younger...I can remember having a very difficult time going over it). Once you get past the cliff, the trail is pretty much finished as you say. But it has been a few years since I've done it and it's not like a have a crystal clear memory of it.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 8, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Stowe, they mark Liftline and National as doubles, right?



 Whoever made the decision to defang Liftline should be beaten.  As for National, it's not a great trail, unless they get a decent snowfall and big moguls form on it.  They I can see it getting away with double-black status.


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## Conrad (Jan 8, 2013)

Another trail that has an incorrect rating is "America" at Saddleback. It is flat and should be a green but is officially a blue. Looking at older ski maps:
http://skimap.org/SkiAreas/view/446
...in 2008 America was considered a green run, but before 2008 was considered a black diamond...go figure!


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## Anklebiter (Jan 8, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> I have a large collection of vintage trail maps and ski brochures. I remember one place in the Midwest had one or more "quadruple black diamond" runs. I LOL'd at this even as a kid when I was collecting these.
> 
> Gotta see if I can dig that up.



Would this be it? Mount Bohemia


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## Smellytele (Jan 8, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whoever made the decision to defang Liftline should be beaten.  As for National, it's not a great trail, unless they get a decent snowfall and big moguls form on it.  They I can see it getting away with double-black status.



I agree with National which I have only skied when it has had huge bumps. When skiing down it you pockets can fill up with snow without falling from scrapping the bumps.


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## snowmonster (Jan 8, 2013)

Anklebiter said:


> Would this be it? Mount Bohemia



I think Bohemia and Smuggs are both guilty of the travesty that is the triple black diamond rating. There are also some resorts in Canada that do this (Can't recall if it's Sutton or MSA). Anyway, I think it's a marketing gimmick. Just call it a double black and leave it alone. Most knowledgeable skiers will see the rating and know that it takes some skill to get down it. I prefer understatement and actually like those resorts that just leave the expert runs as a single black diamond (MRG, Jay for example).


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## soposkier (Jan 8, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> I think Bohemia and Smuggs are both guilty of the travesty that is the triple black diamond rating. There are also some resorts in Canada that do this (Can't recall if it's Sutton or MSA). Anyway, I think it's a marketing gimmick. Just call it a double black and leave it alone. Most knowledgeable skiers will see the rating and know that it takes some skill to get down it. I prefer understatement and actually like those resorts that just leave the expert runs as a single black diamond (MRG, Jay for example).



I agree with the whole triple black diamond being bogus, but I think a place like jay could be justified in assigning some double blacks.  To have the face chutes rated the same as jet might give some the wrong impression that because they can ski a single diamond they can ski all.  Havent been to MRG so cant speak on their ratings.


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## MadPatSki (Jan 8, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> I think Bohemia and Smuggs are both guilty of the travesty that is the triple black diamond rating. There are also some resorts in Canada that do this (Can't recall if it's Sutton or MSA). Anyway, I think it's a marketing gimmick. Just call it a double black and leave it alone. Most knowledgeable skiers will see the rating and know that it takes some skill to get down it. I prefer understatement and actually like those resorts that just leave the expert runs as a single black diamond (MRG, Jay for example).



I think it would be Sutton, although I haven't look carefully at a MSA in a long time.

Red Mountain BC used to have quadruple blacks in the early 1990s. I think that I should maybe post it in February's Ski Mad World Attic post. The January one is already lined up for next Monday.


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## Smellytele (Jan 8, 2013)

Then you have the European ratings that are Green, Blue, Red and Black.


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## MadPatSki (Jan 8, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Then you have the European ratings that are Green, Blue, Red and Black.



For those old enough to remember, prior to a uniform system across North America, they were some interesting case across the East. Sutton used to have the European system until maybe the early 1980s.

Here are some of my Eastern favorites from the 1970s:

Smugglers Notch VT (1978-79): http://madpatski.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/monday-mad-addicts-attic-smugglers-notch-vermont/
Green Triangle (easy) 
Blue Square (intermediate)
Red Circle (expert)

Mont Tremblant Lodge (1973-1978 map) : http://madpatski.wordpress.com/2011/04/18/monday-mad-addict’s-attic-mont-tremblant-lodge/

Green Square (easy)
Yellow Triangle (intermediate)
Blue Circle (expert)


So Smuggs and Tremblant agreed on a few things; circle were expert runs (red or blue) and green (triangle or square) were easy.


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## bobbutts (Jan 8, 2013)

WWF-VT said:


> Ripsaw at Loon is a "double black diamond" - it would be considered a challenging blue in Northern VT


Disagree, I guess we need a protractor, but I'd wager there's not a blue run that steep anywhere in the entire state of VT.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 8, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> Disagree, I guess we need a protractor, but I'd wager there's not a blue run that steep anywhere in the entire state of VT.



Yea, it's steep enough to be a diamond just about anywhere in new england.


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## KevinF (Jan 8, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> Disagree, I guess we need a protractor, but I'd wager there's not a blue run that steep anywhere in the entire state of VT.



It's been a long, long time since I've skied at Loon, but in terms of "steep blues" -- I've always wanted to measure the steepness of Stowe's Main Street (a blue).  It's only three or four turns long, but I've seen more people frozen-in-fear there then just about anywhere else.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 8, 2013)

soposkier said:


> I agree with the whole triple black diamond being bogus, but I think a place like jay could be justified in assigning some double blacks.  To have the face chutes rated the same as jet might give some the wrong impression that because they can ski a single diamond they can ski all.  Havent been to MRG so cant speak on their ratings.



I don't think they really need to. Yes, Face Chutes are much harder than anything on the map at Jay but everyone and their mother sees it from the tram and knows exactly what they are getting into. I also agree that Black Hole should not be marked a triple diamond. As I have said before, you have to ski a section of Robin's Run/Lift Line or Free Fall just to access it. And if you can hold your own on any of those three trails then I am pretty sure you will be fine.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 8, 2013)

If somebody skis Face Chutes @ Jay or Paradise @ MRG and find themselves in over their heads because "it's only a black diamond"...

well...

:lol:


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 8, 2013)

MadPatSki said:


> I think it would be Sutton, although I haven't look carefully at a MSA in a long time.
> 
> Red Mountain BC used to have quadruple blacks in the early 1990s. I think that I should maybe post it in February's Ski Mad World Attic post. The January one is already lined up for next Monday.



I believe there is one at Le Massif but it's been awhile...


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## MadPatSki (Jan 8, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> I believe there is one at Le Massif but it's been awhile...



42 was special back in the 1990s; I don't recall how the official rating was. I can check it out if I have an old trail map from that era at home. I know I have 2 from the pre-lifts/school bus days.


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## St. Bear (Jan 8, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> Most knowledgeable skiers will see the rating and know that it takes some skill to get down it. I prefer understatement and actually like those resorts that just leave the expert runs as a single black diamond (MRG, Jay for example).



I see your point, but as a skier whose ability straddles the line between black/double black, it certainly is helpful to have that distinction.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 8, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Then you have the European ratings that are Green, Blue, Red and Black.



And some places in South America like La Parva


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## AdironRider (Jan 8, 2013)

Now whos at the level where trail ratings dont even matter?


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## MadPatSki (Jan 8, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> And some places in South America like La Parva



Rating in the Andes is often the same system as the one used in the Alps.


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## bobbutts (Jan 8, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Now whos at the level where trail ratings dont even matter?


At lots of places around here probably many of us.  Sunapee comes to mind.


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## snowmonster (Jan 8, 2013)

MadPatSki said:


> I think it would be Sutton, although I haven't look carefully at a MSA in a long time.





MadMadWorld said:


> I believe there is one at Le Massif but it's been awhile...



Both of you are correct. Sutton and Le Massif have triple diamond runs. They are still on the trail map (Sutton - Crocodile, Entonnoir, Bou-Bou; Le Massif - Le Charlevoix). Been studying maps of resorts in Quebec. I need to hit these places this season.



AdironRider said:


> Now whos at the level where trail ratings dont even matter?



I'm glad I'm over the stage where I needed to look at the trail map to make sure that I avoided the black trails.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 8, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> Both of you are correct. Sutton and Le Massif have triple diamond runs. They are still on the trail map (Sutton - Crocodile, Entonnoir, Bou-Bou; Le Massif - Le Charlevoix).



So are these runs actually extremely difficult, or are these absurd trail ratings?

On this thread: http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php/topic/15148-journee-de-ski-memorable-a-sutton/    Go to post 5 and there are a series of photos of Entonnior rated <><><> at Sutton which looks not too difficult sort of a narrow windy one.

Here is what I can find of "Bou-Bou", one of the <><><> at Sutton.. looks like fun to me but nothing beyond the scope of a usual double diamond. This place looks like a ton of fun to ski though.


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## hammer (Jan 8, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> I'm glad I'm over the stage where I needed to look at the trail map to make sure that I avoided the black trails.


I'm not over that stage yet at some areas, but on a busy day I feel like I need to look at the trail map to make sure I avoid the blues. :roll:


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## abc (Jan 8, 2013)

soposkier said:


> I agree with the whole triple black diamond being bogus, but I think a place like jay could be justified in assigning some double blacks. To have the face chutes rated the same as jet might give some the wrong impression that because they can ski a single diamond they can ski all. Havent been to MRG so cant speak on their ratings.





St. Bear said:


> I see your point, but as a skier whose ability straddles the line between black/double black, it certainly is helpful to have that distinction.


I'll buy the need for the like of double black. But I don't like the double black itself, which gave the impression it's just a harder black. 

I think each resort should be allowed to designate what they considered "outrageously difficult" trails. And it should be understood it can range from steep'ish bumps at Stratton to cliffs in Jackson Hole! 

That would preserve the general green/blue/black being similar all over but allow resorts to warn yahoos who might think it's "just another black"!

Personally, I like the white water world of definition: 

Class III: needs manuvering to avoid obstacles, but no consequence if missing the line
Class IV: complex manuvering required, bodily injury possible if missing the safe line; 
Class V: Death Likely if missing the line; 
Class VI: unnavigable (death certainly)!

What the ski resorts need are color to designate "you're going to crash into rocks/trees and get seriously hurt UNLESS you have skill to handle all possible terrains"! And resorts should reserve those designation to not-so-obvious ones. Tight trees on steep slopes don't need it because it's obvious how hard it is. But a 50' cliff band half way down a convex slope would be a candidate for such designation!


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 8, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> So are these runs actually extremely difficult, or are these absurd trail ratings?
> 
> On this thread: http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php/topic/15148-journee-de-ski-memorable-a-sutton/    Go to post 5 and there are a series of photos of Entonnior rated <><><> at Sutton which looks not too difficult sort of a narrow windy one.
> 
> Here is what I can find of "Bou-Bou", one of the <><><> at Sutton.. looks like fun to me but nothing beyond the scope of a usual double diamond. This place looks like a ton of fun to ski though.



La Charlevoix is somewhat comparable to Paradise at MRG. it skis more like an area then a trail. It can be anything from steep wide open trees to rocky chutes and cliffs into tight hardwoods. It can get pretty hairy in some places but everything can pretty much be avoided. I guess it could be called an "eastern" double but to call it a triple is a joke.


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## Euler (Jan 8, 2013)

I was at Mont Sutton for two days recently and it was AMAZING! There's not a trail there that would be described as a "cruiser" I dont think.   The ratings aren't absurd, but the triple diamonds are certainly skiable by mortals.  I'm an advanced intermediate (can survive a trail like ripcord at Mt. Snow when not too icy, though not with a lot o grace)  I found the double black woods there challenging, but not as challenging for me as ripcord.

It seemed like the mountain had decided at some point to call its steepest "glades" double blacks, so when they opened up and named real "tree skiing" (not thinned as much as the glades) they needed a higher difficulty rating.


bdfreetuna said:


> So are these runs actually extremely difficult, or are these absurd trail ratings?
> 
> On this thread: http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php/topic/15148-journee-de-ski-memorable-a-sutton/    Go to post 5 and there are a series of photos of Entonnior rated <><><> at Sutton which looks not too difficult sort of a narrow windy one.
> 
> Here is what I can find of "Bou-Bou", one of the <><><> at Sutton.. looks like fun to me but nothing beyond the scope of a usual double diamond. This place looks like a ton of fun to ski though.


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## goldsbar (Jan 8, 2013)

abc said:


> I think each resort should be allowed to designate what they considered "outrageously difficult" trails. And it should be understood it can range from steep'ish bumps at Stratton to cliffs in Jackson Hole!



Jackson Hole has one of those "you're going to die" signs for the tram which isn't even that hard - but would be really hard for a low intermediate so they're just trying to save people from a long walk.


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## dovoian (Jan 9, 2013)

I came in this thread to mention Big Emma - I don't know of any other green trails with an airable headwall!  (memory is 10 years old on that one, I may be talking about a section that intersects Barry Barry Steep and technically not part of Big Emma).  Snowbird in general did not seem inflated in marked difficulty - I once looked over Great Scott and thought it would be a good place to put an elevator shaft..

Of the places I go normally:

I thought Bretton Woods was in general very very overrated in difficulty all over the mountain, although not to say the place is worthless or anything - its actually a very nice relaxing place to ski lower angle trees (except the lift structure is nonsensical).  Attitash seems overrated because they groom almost everything (although their groomers are pretty darn steep sometimes, like Upper/Middle Ptarmigan).  

Cannon's trail ratings seem pretty fair, with maybe an occasional lapse, like for Middle Cannon Bypass and Paulie's Extension being black when imo they seem kinda blue..  Although with Cannon, difficulty is very conditions-dependent (stay off that shiny blue stuff)!

Mad River Glen is the hilarious one - as far as I've experienced, anything there marked blue would be marked black at most other places I've been, and anything marked black would either be double black, roped all season, or unmarked.  Not that I've been all over that mountain (I think I've taken maybe 15 runs there total, and 10 of them have been down various sections of Paradise).  Ferret is a funny one - for a traverse, its actually pretty nuts! And very fun!  It's black probably because it dumps into a black, but someone used to blues at most resorts would probably find themselves a little flustered getting through it.  I feel like someone totally uninitiated might get into some trouble there, but probably be able to get themselves out with nothing but a funny story.

I just started going to Sugarbush this season, but IMO it looks pretty fairly marked.  They're not too generous with the doubles, and Castlerock is pretty gnarly and warrants the black/d-black.  The marked trees are just 'zones' which is cool, as I believe glades are kind of in their own category of difficulty and best measured by surrounding trails and tree density..

I think that a lot of times trails get marked up for being narrow.  That makes me sort of sad, because the challenge in a narrow trail IMO is a bit in your head, as you don't tend to take up a whole football field regardless of your ability.  I guess at most places a narrow trail gets ruined pretty quickly also, from quads dumping 4 people every 3 seconds onto the hill.


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## oakapple (Jan 9, 2013)

Trail ratings are a mixture of honesty, marketing, and liability management. I don't think there's any dishonesty in labeling your hardest trail(s) black, even if — objectively speaking — they'd be blue somewhere else.

I do think that if a ski area uses the double-black designation at all, it ought to be objectively difficult, and not merely "the hardest we have." Camelback has a ridiculous double-black that's only slightly harder than blue.

Triple-blacks really should be insane, or they have no business using that label.


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## xwhaler (Jan 9, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Another trail that has an incorrect rating is "America" at Saddleback. It is flat and should be a green but is officially a blue. Looking at older ski maps:
> http://skimap.org/SkiAreas/view/446
> ...in 2008 America was considered a green run, but before 2008 was considered a black diamond...go figure!



I believe Saddleback does that to keep true beginners off the summitt. Certainly anyone can ski America but in order to lap America multiple times in a row you would need to go back to the Pass which is fairly narrow and with skiiers dropping in from other various trails/glades all the time. Also may require some poling which beginners may not have perfected yet. And there is a little pitch down back to the lift on Green Weaver (Blue) that is required.
 which I've seen can get scraped off quickly.
Pretty sure they just wanted to make sure skiers didnt get up there and were then forced to get back onto a blue.

Also going up the Rangeley or the T there is no way to access America without first skiing a blue.

It was likely a black before too as they had the T bar which was not conduvice to beginners.
Def a unique situation...that is one thing I will say about Saddleback...they don't really have many green options once u get up off the lower/learning quad.


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## snowmonster (Jan 9, 2013)

Euler said:


> I was at Mont Sutton for two days recently and it was AMAZING! There's not a trail there that would be described as a "cruiser" I dont think.   The ratings aren't absurd, but the triple diamonds are certainly skiable by mortals.  I'm an advanced intermediate (can survive a trail like ripcord at Mt. Snow when not too icy, though not with a lot o grace)  I found the double black woods there challenging, but not as challenging for me as ripcord.
> 
> It seemed like the mountain had decided at some point to call its steepest "glades" double blacks, so when they opened up and named real "tree skiing" (not thinned as much as the glades) they needed a higher difficulty rating.





bdfreetuna said:


> So are these runs actually extremely difficult, or are these absurd trail ratings?
> 
> On this thread: http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php/topic/15148-journee-de-ski-memorable-a-sutton/    Go to post 5 and there are a series of photos of Entonnior rated <><><> at Sutton which looks not too difficult sort of a narrow windy one.
> 
> Here is what I can find of "Bou-Bou", one of the <><><> at Sutton.. looks like fun to me but nothing beyond the scope of a usual double diamond. This place looks like a ton of fun to ski though.





MadMadWorld said:


> La Charlevoix is somewhat comparable to Paradise at MRG. it skis more like an area then a trail. It can be anything from steep wide open trees to rocky chutes and cliffs into tight hardwoods. It can get pretty hairy in some places but everything can pretty much be avoided. I guess it could be called an "eastern" double but to call it a triple is a joke.


Thank you, gents, for the scouting reports on Mont Sutton and Le Massif. I'm definitely hitting Quebec this season.

If I do ski north of the border, special thanks go to the Quebec tourism bureau for sending such charming and delightful ski ambassadors to the Boston ski show. Ooo la la.:-D


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 9, 2013)

^
pics plz


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2013)

snowmonster said:


> Thank you, gents, for the scouting reports on Mont Sutton and Le Massif. I'm definitely hitting Quebec this season.



Make sure you have a passport or an enhanced ID

My prez weekend plan includes Mont Sutton as a holiday avoidance strategy. Wanted to do it last year but my gf's family didn't have passports, so we stuck to Jay Peak.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^
> pics plz



Wish I had one for you. Tried to find one online but they only show the easiest area of La Charlevoix (I believe there are 4 marked entrances). I know the further skiers right you go, the harder it gets. Sorry I couldn't be more help.


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## Highway Star (Jan 9, 2013)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> I agree with the Big Emma one. I think it is so Snowbird can get to say they have the "most difficult green in North America" (actually heard that from ski instructors there). Another ridiculous one at Snowbird: the "easy way out" if you don't want to take Big Emma is called Snowcat Access, it is rated double black diamond. If you ski all the way to the right on big emma, you get to two "experts only" access gates. The run itself is sloped gently like a steeper green and probably 15-20 feet wide. The reason for its rating is that the run has a cliff on the left, and it does not offer much room to slow down. Were beginners to actually take the trail they would either fly off the cliff or crash into those exiting the Wilbere lift at the end of the short trail.



LOL. I have to call BS on this one. It's a cat track with a short 35-40 degree pitch off the trail to the skiers left. Not a dangerous cliff. 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=snowb...oid=bqm24fBpEckXWymkTuLj8A&cbp=12,291.61,,0,0

Great Northern at Killington has a spot with a simliar drop off, it's not marked and I'm suprised people don't fall off it more often, though we do ski it.


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## gregnye (Jan 9, 2013)

Upper Northstar at Loon---definitely should not be a black. It is just a narrower blue under the kanc chair.

I heard that the only reason it is a black is because it was made before the East Basin, North Peak and South Peak were developed, and Loon was desperate for "black diamonds". It does not compare to the difficulty of say Big Dipper or Triple Trouble, Jobber or Twitcher.


Oh yah, and "Hairball" at Wildcat should be a double diamond--not a single! It has way more cliffs than any other black on that mountain (excluding the rocks on Starr Line). 

I have gone down all the other blacks at Wildcat, but still can't work up courage for Hairball---it looks that bad--someday though!


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## MadPatSki (Jan 9, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> Wish I had one for you.



I might be mistaken, but it sounded like he was referring to the girl(s?) from the Quebec Tourist board mentioned by snowmonster.




MadMadWorld said:


> Tried to find one online but they only show the easiest area of La Charlevoix (I believe there are 4 marked entrances). I know the further skiers right you go, the harder it gets. Sorry I couldn't be more help.



There are a few entrances. It probably triple black because you don't get many steep groomers that are water injected in the East. The run was/is used to train downhill from the Canadian Development team. Not saying it should or shouldn't be 3 black, its just an observation.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2013)

MadPatSki said:


> I might be mistaken, but it sounded like he was referring to the girl(s?) from the Quebec Tourist board mentioned by snowmonster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol good catch. In that case.....me too!


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## snowmonster (Jan 9, 2013)

MadPatSki said:


> I might be mistaken, but it sounded like he was referring to the girl(s?) from the Quebec Tourist board mentioned by snowmonster.





MadMadWorld said:


> Lol good catch. In that case.....me too!



Well, you know me. It's always _cherchez la femme._


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Oh yah, and "Hairball" at Wildcat should be a double diamond--not a single! It has way more cliffs than any other black on that mountain (excluding the rocks on Starr Line).
> 
> I have gone down all the other blacks at Wildcat, but still can't work up courage for Hairball---it looks that bad--someday though!



The issue with Hairball is typically lack of base.  When it's filled in, it's not too difficult.  It's probably still the most difficult trail on the mountain though.


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## redwinger (Jan 9, 2013)

If Cannon had Doubles I'd say Tramline should be one.  Thing is narrow and hairy!


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## BeefyBoy50 (Jan 9, 2013)

Highway Star said:


> LOL. I have to call BS on this one. It's a cat track with a short 35-40 degree pitch off the trail to the skiers left. Not a dangerous cliff.
> 
> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=snowb...oid=bqm24fBpEckXWymkTuLj8A&cbp=12,291.61,,0,0



Yeah, you caught me exaggerating a little bit. However, it does get deeper and steeper the closer you get to Wilbere Chair, and whether it is a cliff or simply a short, heavily treed, 35-40˚ pitch doesn't really matter to the beginner who is falling down it which I guess is why they marked it this way. It's the most efficient way to get back from Gad Valley to the tram and peruvian though so if it wasn't as dangerous I'm sure it would be one of the most highly used trails on the mountain.


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## Puck it (Jan 9, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> The issue with Hairball is typically lack of base.  When it's filled in, it's not too difficult.  It's probably still the most difficult trail on the mountain though.




Imho, there are no blacks at Wildcat that trails.  I like the mountain, but it is pretty shallow on the steepness chart.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2013)

Puck it said:


> Imho, there are no blacks at Wildcat that trails.  I like the mountain, but it is pretty shallow on the steepness chart.



If that's the case then there are a TON of mountains that would only have beginner and intermediate terrain....including Cannon. Starr Line, Top Cat, Feline, Al's Folly, Hairball all have steep section and offer some of the most technical skiing out there because of all the obstacles and Wildcats lax policy about leaving its advanced terrain open. Throw in T Brook and you have tons of choices


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## Puck it (Jan 9, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> If that's the case then there are a TON of mountains that would only have beginner and intermediate terrain....including Cannon. Starr Line, Top Cat, Feline, Al's Folly, Hairball all have steep section and offer some of the most technical skiing out there because of all the obstacles and Wildcats lax policy about leaving its advanced terrain open. Throw in T Brook and you have tons of choices




Agree, but the sustained pitch is just not there at Wildcat with their trails.  I did not say Glades, T Brook is a damn good trail.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2013)

Puck it said:


> Imho, there are no blacks at Wildcat that trails.  I like the mountain, but it is pretty shallow on the steepness chart.



Agreed the mountain isn't that steep, but tell me where Hairball would be a Blue?  Jackson Hole?


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## Puck it (Jan 9, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed the mountain isn't that steep, but tell me where Hairball would be a Blue?  Jackson Hole?
> 
> View attachment 7284
> 
> View attachment 7285


It Is the best trail on the mountain when there is good coverage, but I just don't think the pitch is there.  Cannon trails are not that steep either except for steepest of the front five and Tramline.  Glades are a different story though.


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