# NY Times - Ski Helmet Use Isn’t Reducing Brain Injuries



## catskills (Jan 1, 2014)

NY Times - Ski Helmet Use Isn’t Reducing Brain Injuries

I posted this for the risk takers that are wearing helmets.   Helmets will not save your a$$ as much as you might think it will.  Think again before going big or high speed. 

As for the crowd that currently don't wear helmets.  Think again.  Helmets are still worth wearing because they do help reduce head injuries but just not as much as everyone thinks they help. 

"Experts agree that the roots of the trend are complicated and could be  related to increased awareness about brain injuries and reporting of  them. But they also agreed on one element underpinning the trend: an  increase in risk-taking behaviors that they said the snow-sports  industry had embraced. In recent years, many resorts have built bigger  features in their terrain parks and improved access to more extreme  terrain. At the same time, *advances in equipment have made it easier to  ski faster, *perform tricks and venture out of bounds."


----------



## Tin (Jan 1, 2014)

Still don't wear one but I've become tempted to pick one up when going through the trees. More concerned about a limb or stick ripping my forehead open than hitting my head on something. My one concussion skiing was actually caused by whiplash and a sudden stop than hitting my head.


----------



## Bene288 (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm also in the minority.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

> *
> Schumacher’s doctors say he would not have survived his fall had he not worn a helmet.*



Well, count me on the side with those thinking that's probably somewhat significant.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

Tin said:


> Still don't wear one but I've become tempted to pick one up when going through the trees. More concerned about a limb or stick ripping my forehead open than hitting my head on something. My one concussion skiing was actually caused by whiplash and a sudden stop than hitting my head.


If you're worried about head injury, then don't ski tree's. Seriously,  A helmet isn't going to do anything if you go head first into a tree.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

Helmets don't prevent the brain from shaking inside the skull. That's what causes the majority of trauma in most head injuries, therefore a helmet has limited effectiveness. How hard is this for people to understand? lol A helmet provides some protection again sharp objects(a jagged rock, a rail, the edge of a half pipe) since it spreads the force out. It also helps protect the bone. If you fall and hit your head on the snow, a helmet will probably do nothing.(helmet might help a little on ice, but not soft snow) All the helmets on the slopes started when that celebrity fell and hit her head on a bunny hill and died in a 1 in million type event. Then the masses decided they needed a helmet to prevent death on a bunny hill. Just as likely to die falling in a bathroom and helmet probably wouldn't have done anything for he sadly.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *A helmet isn't going to do anything if you go head first into a tree.*



Depends on the speed.  

Skiing ripping fast?  Probably not.  
Skiing slow or moderate?  Quite possibly so.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

There's also numerous research papers showing helmets don't prevent concussions since they can't stop the brain from shaking inside the skull. I WISH we could build a helmet that is more effective, but that's reality.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Depends on the speed.
> 
> Skiing ripping fast?  Probably not.
> Skiing slow or moderate?  Quite possibly so.


Moderate speeds into a tree? What do define as moderate? 25mph? You're dead most likely if you run head first into a tree at that speed
5mph? It will help protect your skull. You have to remember your brain has to deaccelerate inside the skull cavity. A helmet does nothing for that. Just understand the limitations of a helmet. That's all. It's everyone's personal decision whether to wear one. Just don't take extra risks just because you have a helmet on.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> . All the helmets on the slopes started when that celebrity fell and hit her head on a bunny hill and died in a 1 in million type event. Then the masses decided they needed a helmet to prevent death on a bunny hill. Just as likely to die falling in a bathroom and helmet probably wouldn't have done anything for he sadly.



Say what?  Natasha Richardson died in 2009.  Vast usage of helmets on the slopes started long before that.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Say what?  Natasha Richardson died in 2009.  Vast usage of helmets on the slopes started long before that.


It *seemed *to ramp up BIG time after that. Do you know how many people said....now I'm getting a helmet, see what happened to her. Now that just might be my personal experience. Do you have data showing what percentage helmet used increased on slopes between 2009 and present? Maybe it just seemed that way and it was my anomalous experience.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Helmets don't prevent the brain from shaking inside the skull. That's what causes the majority of trauma in most head injuries, therefore a helmet has limited effectiveness. How hard is this for people to understand? lol A helmet provides some protection again sharp objects(a jagged rock, a rail, the edge of a half pipe) since it spreads the force out. It also helps protect the bone. If you fall and hit your head on the snow, a helmet will probably do nothing.(helmet might help a little on ice, but not soft snow) All the helmets on the slopes started when that celebrity fell and hit her head on a bunny hill and died in a 1 in million type event. Then the masses decided they needed a helmet to prevent death on a bunny hill. Just as likely to die falling in a bathroom and helmet probably wouldn't have done anything for he sadly.



i take it you don't wear one?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Moderate speeds into a tree? What do define as moderate? 25mph? You're dead most likely if you run head first into a tree at that speed
> 5mph? It will help protect your skull.



It's fiction that most crashes or "tree bumps" happen at high rates of speed, they happen at lower rates of speed.  Do you ski in glades?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> It *seemed *to ramp up BIG time after that. Do you know how many people said....now I'm getting a helmet, see what happened to her. Now that just might be my personal experience. Do you have data showing what percentage helmet used increased on slopes between 2009 and present? Maybe it just seemed that way and it was my anomalous experience.



Might have been talked about a lot in the media and I'm sure you could Google stats but I'd say their use started ramping up long before that.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 1, 2014)

i love the logic, a helmet can't guarantee my safety 100% of the time so it is useless.


hold your unconscious, bleeding from the ears child in your arm while you scream out for someone to help you, later have the neurosurgeon tell you if not for the helmet you'd be burying your daughter and  then tell me they aren't a useful piece of equipment.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> *I'd say their use started ramping up long before that*.



WAY before that.  I'd throw out something like 2002 for my best guess.


----------



## mister moose (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> You're dead most likely if you run head first into a tree at that speed



I know there's exceptions (like you're already cartwheeling), but who runs headfirst into a tree, anyway.  If I'm losing it and a tree is coming up fast, I'm bending to the side at the waist, kicking over with a leg, ANYTHING to avoid hitting my head.

Most frequent almost daily use of my helmet - the guy who lowers the safety bar .07 seconds after he sits down and smacks me as I haven't even gotten my back on the backrest yet.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> i love the logic, a helmet can't guarantee my safety 100% of the time so it is useless.
> 
> 
> hold your unconscious, bleeding from the ears child in your arm while you scream out for someone to help you, later have the neurosurgeon tell you if not for the helmet you'd be burying your daughter and  then tell me they aren't a useful piece of equipment.


It's not about 100% of the time. Helmets do NOTHING or little for concussions. So the MAJORITY of the time a helmet will do nothing. The only time a helmet will help is if you hit a hard sharp object that has the potential to fracture your skull. (rail, pipe, rock)That's about it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-warns-helmets-dont-protect-young-athletes-from-concussion/

A helmet's benefit is greatly overstated. It doesn't stop the brain from shaking inside the skull. Some Doctors even falsely believe that a helmet helps big time. They don't. Their benefit is VERY limited for snow skiing outside of the terrain park.

*No one is telling you that you can't wear one. Why do people feel the need to tell others they have to wear one or tell them there morons? It's simply not true.*


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

mister moose said:


> I know there's exceptions (like you're already cartwheeling), but who runs headfirst into a tree, anyway.  If I'm losing it and a tree is coming up fast, I'm bending to the side at the waist, kicking over with a leg, ANYTHING to avoid hitting my head.
> 
> Most frequent almost daily use of my helmet - the guy who lowers the safety bar .07 seconds after he sits down and smacks me as I haven't even gotten my back on the backrest yet.


Dude you catch an edge/lose your balance in glades and can easily go head first into a tree. That's why they tell you to ski with a partner. If you want to take that risk then it's up to you. Just don't delude yourself into thinking there isn't any risk. It's common sense....you're passing with a foot of a tree. You might just hit it someday if you make a mistake and fall forward and have bad luck and happen to hit your head.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's fiction that most crashes or "tree bumps" happen at high rates of speed, they happen at lower rates of speed.  Do you ski in glades?


No I would never take that risk. Personal decision. What's a lower rate of speed? What rate of speed do you think you hit a tree head first and be ok with or without a helmet? lol Running head first into a tree is not a good idea. lol


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

I think some people, some, not all, use a helmet to justify their risk taking behavior...."I'll be ok...I'm wearing a helmet"


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2014)

Most folks don't know that helmets, generally, are designed with beginner/intermediates in mind who will ski at slower speeds and impact with the snow and not solid objects.  Unless this has changed, most folks don't know this.  I was blown away when I read this.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Most folks don't know that helmets, generally, are designed with beginner/intermediates in mind who will ski at slower speeds and *impact with the snow and not solid objects*.  Unless this has changed, most folks don't know this.  I was blown away when I read this.



And a helmet will do NOTHING/little for that type of impact. Check my cbs link I posted before. It's a rotational force impact. The brain damage is caused by shaking of the brain inside the skull cavity in that type of fall.
Simple understanding.....egg yolk...inside egg shell. Shake the egg shell and the egg yolk gets damaged even without the shell being damaged. That's a concussion and is exactly what will occur with that type of fall


----------



## dmw (Jan 1, 2014)

Delude, dilute, dude.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> And a helmet will do NOTHING for that type of impact. Check my cbs link I posted before. It's a rotational force impact. The brain damage is caused by shaking of the brain inside the skull cavity in that type of fall.
> Simple understanding.....egg yolk...inside egg shell. Shake the egg shell and the egg yolk gets damaged even without the shell being damaged. That's a concussion and is exactly what will occur with that type of fall



^ Doesn't understand that brain damage and concussion aren't the only head/cranial injuries


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

Epic thread brewing here.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> ^ Doesn't understand that brain damage and concussion aren't the only head/cranial injuries



Laceration's are not a big deal. Just stitch it up. It will heal. Concussion/brain damage are the BIG irreversible damage. We are only beginning to lean what long term damage is done just by one concussion.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> *Epic thread brewing here*.



I'm about to bail-out soon by invoking the, _"95% of people hold these truths to be self-evident" _clause.



gmcunni said:


> *i take it you don't wear one?*



It's almost as obvious as the 4WD versus Snow Tires thread.


----------



## Cannonball (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *Why do people feel the need to tell others they have to wear one or their moron's?*



The phrase "their moron's" is just too perfect.  Head injury?


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 1, 2014)

snowlover, when you need one, i recommend Dr. Duncan @ Yale.  Pretty close to you since you live near Powder Ridge.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

Alright I said my piece. Last thing I want to say. If you want to wear a helmet, go for it! No problem there. Just don't take extra risks that you wouldn't take if you weren't wearing the helmet. And if you're just a cruiser who chooses not to wear a helmet. That is fine too. It's not some crazy risk to not wear a helmet and just have a leisurely ski.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> The phrase "their moron's" is just too perfect.  Head injury?



BOGO sale on errors.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> The phrase "their moron's" is just too perfect.  Head injury?



I have had quite a few head injuries/concussions. None skiing. My memory is all screwed up.  I was wearing a helmet every single concussion.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *I have had quite a few head injuries/concussions. None skiing.* My memory is all screwed up. Like big time noticeable difference. I have trouble concentrating and I suffer from depression/anxiety. *I was wearing a helmet every single concussion*.



Football?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

I must have missed it.  Did you answer g's question about whether you wear a helmet when you ski?


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I must have missed it.  Did you answer g's question about whether you wear a helmet when you ski?


No. I don't feel it would do anything for me if I hit my head on the snow. I don't do terrain park and I don't ski fast.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *No. I don't feel it would do anything for me if I hit my head on the snow.*



How about a rock on the snow?



> *Schumacher’s doctors say he would not have survived his fall had he not worn a helmet.*


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> No. I don't feel it would do anything for me if I hit my head on the snow. I don't do terrain park and I don't ski fast.



Snowlover, you do realize by admitting just a few posts ago to having repeated head injuries while participating in youth hockey, some folks might question your logic in not wearing a helmet while skiing?

Obviously, your choice to not wear a helmet


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *There are no rocks all over the trail where I ski so I'm not worried about hitting that. *



Then you _dont_ ski glades either.


----------



## Tin (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover's logical posts in this thread just convinced me to buy a helmet.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 1, 2014)

Tin said:


> Snowlover's logical posts in this thread just convinced me to buy a helmet.


POTD



defeat all caps filter


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then you _dont_ ski glades either.



no


----------



## Bene288 (Jan 1, 2014)

Tin said:


> Snowlover's logical posts in this thread just convinced me to buy a helmet.



+1


----------



## Tin (Jan 1, 2014)

Ski slow, no rocks around, don't ski glades or the park...



Do you ski cross country?


----------



## Bene288 (Jan 1, 2014)

A helmet will absolutely prevent you from cracking your skull or slicing your head open.

As for hockey helmets, they were never designed to prevent concussions. They're there so when you get boarded you don't split your head open on the stanchion. No helmet in the world, maybe with the exception of auto racing lids (neck restraints,) will stop a concussion. 

I don't think many skiers, especially people on AZ, consider themselves bullet proof just because they wear a helmet, it is most definitely added assurance though. If anything I find people without helmets ski more erratically.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> no



Then, perhaps you're not the best candidate to tell us what a helmet will or will not protect against via common spills in the trees.  

Sort of how I'm not the best candidate to tell Octomom what it feels like to give birth.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then, perhaps you're not the best candidate to tell us what a helmet will or will not protect against via common spills in the trees.
> 
> Sort of how I'm not the best candidate to tell Octomom what it feels like to give birth.



You have to run into tree's head first to be a good candidate to tell people that running into a tree with/without a helmet is a bad idea..... and they think my logic is bad. LMFAO Listen, concussion= brain damage/potential death. Period. Helmets don't prevent the brain from shaking inside the skull. This is not just me. This is science. Ok you guys are just ganging up on me because you think helmets will help save you from your risk taking behavior. Goodbye from this thread. Oh and god forbid I shoudl just enjoy some trail riding. 

*Trail riding  at low speed(less than 30mph) in control WITHOUT helmet= safer than terrain park or glade skiing WITH helmet*


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

Tin said:


> Ski slow, no rocks around, don't ski glades or the park...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you ski cross country?


I ski trails and I have fun doing it  I guess i'm not as hardcore as you...pfff


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 1, 2014)

Done with thread. Talking to people who won't listen.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 1, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *Trail riding  at low speed in control WITHOUT helmet= safer than terrain park or glade skiing WITH helmet*



i agree with this statement. however, if you are skiing on a groomed trail, even a green one, and something goes wrong and you end up out of control due to your own mistake or a snowboard running into you and you crash off trail into a rock and hit your head, having a helmet would provide more protection than a knit cap.

wearing a helmet is a personal choice... for now, at most ski areas.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 1, 2014)

I love my helmet keeps me warm and hit many stems and branches that would have hurt a lot if not for the helmet. Just got figure out a way of fixing the ear piece.


----------



## gladerider (Jan 1, 2014)

i started wearing a helmet when my kids started skiing. around 2001. kids ski schools all required by then. then my kids asked why i wasn't wearing one. i couldn't come up with a reason. so i got one. it's just a protection better than not having one.

snowlover's logic doesn't work for me. sounds like a logic some came up with for football. well, it doesn't work the same way in ski.
i wonder if snowlover would encourage his kids not to wear one also because based on his logic, it's useless.
oh well.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2014)

Re: brain movement in skull

That is a real serious issue with any contact sport or skiing.  If anyone hasn't seen it yet, this Fall's FRONTLINE documentary on PBS on brain injuries to NFL players was pretty damn illuminating and thought provoking.  In sum, guys as young as 18 are developing CTE from repeated blows to the head and suffering MAJOR personality disorders and major changes that essentially drive them mad.  Several players have committed suicide as a result....pretty serious and fuc*ing scary thing:  

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/


----------



## gladerider (Jan 2, 2014)

sure is. spoke to many parents. some really talented kids are not pursuing football due to this issue. don't blame them.


----------



## catskills (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> BTW- I'm not a doctor and certainly wouldn't want to feel responsible if anyone got injured by listening to me and not wearing a helmet. If you're worried, wear a helmet. It won't hurt and can only help. It's a personal decision. I just don't like being called an idiot because I don't wear a helmet. *I don't ski fast and  I just enjoy the outdoors and the powder and having fun.* So I was just trying to explain why I don't wear one. I also don't like being FORCED to wear one by a ski area.



I have the highest respect for Snowlover.  Snowlover is not skiing fast and just out to enjoy the outdoors without taking risks.  IMHO Snowlover is reducing risky behavior on skis which is more important for personal safety than wearing a helmet.  

Thmbs up to Snowlover 

This only thing I can add to this is my personal experience.  I was skiing with no helmet ~20 MPH  straight down the fall line in 1993 with no other skiers around on the trail except for my 8 year old daughter skiing 100 feet in front of me.  A very good skier came down the trail at high speed >50MPH and lost it just before passing me.  He hit me from behind, I was unconscious for a few minutes and he put me in the hospital for a week.  I had 3 skull fractures and 4 broken ribs. I was not allowed to drive for 10 weeks.  If my 8 yo daughter was wearing a helmet and he hit her at that speed it would not have mattered helmet or no helmet.  She would have been dead.   Two years later I went skiing for the first time.  I was extremely nervous about skiing again.  

My whole family wears helmets just in case we get hit by another skier or rider.   Its our choice.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Done with thread. Talking to people who won't listen.



Are you listening to those people?


----------



## millerm277 (Jan 2, 2014)

The NY Times article I think should be common sense to anyone on here. Helmets aren't going to help you when you slam into a tree or rock at 25mph, they aren't going to help if you're "going big" on a huge feature and make some catastrophic error that results in you slamming into the ground upside down from 40ft up, etc. 

Parks, glades, off-piste and other more risky skiing/boarding, have been on a rapid increase in recent years, as well as the mentioned technological improvements that lead to people being able to go faster, ski harder, etc...all of which are great until something goes wrong and you're in a much more dangerous place than you could have ever gotten to with old equipment.

It's up to the individual skier to decide what level of risk they want to tolerate. Helmets are a form of risk mitigation.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jan 2, 2014)

I've worn one since Sonny Bono t-boned that tree.I think that's when helmet use really started its dramatic climb.Of course it will help in some situations and be of minimal help in others.I find it much warmer as a bonus.I could care less if others don't wear one and I'd never preach to them about it.To each his own,period.


----------



## mister moose (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Mister Moose said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, _the very first thing I said _is that there are exceptions.  But until you lose conciousness, you can always mitigate the fall before impact.  And for me, you better believe in a bad fall I'm constantly thinking about getting my legs below me, avoiding objects, stopping the rotation, protecting soft important body core places.  In whatever fraction of a second you have you can still be pro-active, instead of just surrendering to random injury.

I think this is the first time I 've seen that someone fervently advocates lowering injury risk by skiing low risk terrain at low speeds, but chooses not to lower his own injury risk by wearing a helmet.


----------



## Abominable (Jan 2, 2014)

I just started wearing one this year.  I like it.  Makes me go faster.  Tuna speed.

Pretty much the only reason I wear one is that is something were to happen, regardless of whether or not the helmet helped in that particular situation, if I weren't wearing the helmet, I'd never hear the end of it.

On a more serious note, the majority of my injuries have been from crashing into things with my ribs and back or my hands and wrists.  I think wristguards and some sort of core / spin protector would have more potential benefit than a helmet.  Been meaning to look into that....


----------



## Bostonian (Jan 2, 2014)

As someone who was wearing one last year when I crumpled myself, I will say it helped save my ass.  While I agree that it is the shaking of the brain that causes TBI and a helmet will not absolutely prevent all injuries of the brain; it does none the less help mitigate some of the damage that could have happened.   The shock that is absorbed by the helmet does help, and I feel lowers the risk.  That said, having a helmet doesn't make me ski faster or better (to be honest I suck!), but it gives me the pause to think about mitigating any risk I take on the hill.


----------



## Bobt2ski (Jan 2, 2014)

After reading all of this my thoughts are.  If the odds are even small, if wearing a helmet is safer, I'm wearing one.  I'd rather have a helmet on than a knot on the side of my head!!!


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 2, 2014)

Abominable said:


> I just started wearing one this year. I like it. Makes me go faster. Tuna speed.
> 
> Pretty much the only reason I wear one is that is something were to happen, regardless of whether or not the helmet helped in that particular situation, if I weren't wearing the helmet, I'd never hear the end of it.
> 
> On a more serious note, the majority of my injuries have been from crashing into things with my ribs and back or my hands and wrists. I think wristguards and some sort of core / spin protector would have more potential benefit than a helmet. Been meaning to look into that....



Exactly. Skiing helmets are not made for impact with trees. In reality people that collide with trees more often than not die from internal injuries to the chest and neck than the head.


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> ^ Doesn't understand that brain damage and concussion aren't the only head/cranial injuries



That is indeed a very good point.   Most helmets are designed against catastrophic injuries such as skull fractures and lacerations and offer limited protection against concussions.  Helmets offer some energy dissipation against head-on collisions that nevertheless offer some minimal protection against concussions, and some newer design (in some POC helmets) afford protection against rotational movement (http://mipshelmet.com/home).   One thing is sure, while a helmet may not offer full protection, your outcome will always be better with than without.


----------



## RENO (Jan 2, 2014)

mister moose said:


> Most frequent almost daily use of my helmet - the guy who lowers the safety bar .07 seconds after he sits down and smacks me as I haven't even gotten my back on the backrest yet.


My helmet has many many scratches from idiots doing this! :-?


----------



## RENO (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> *Helmets don't prevent the brain from shaking inside the skull.* That's what causes the majority of trauma in most head injuries, therefore a helmet has limited effectiveness. How hard is this for people to understand? lol A helmet provides some protection again sharp objects(a jagged rock, a rail, the edge of a half pipe) since it spreads the force out. It also helps protect the bone. If you fall and hit your head on the snow, a helmet will probably do nothing.(helmet might help a little on ice, but not soft snow) All the helmets on the slopes started when that celebrity fell and hit her head on a bunny hill and died in a 1 in million type event. Then the masses decided they needed a helmet to prevent death on a bunny hill. Just as likely to die falling in a bathroom and helmet probably wouldn't have done anything for he sadly.


This is changing a lot with MIPS technology. http://mipshelmet.com/home I always wear a helmet, but I'm looking to get one of these for Snowboarding and mountain biking. Selection isn't big yet, but it's increasing. A few I like in here:  http://mipshelmet.com/find-a-helmet


----------



## tnt (Jan 2, 2014)

While a helmet won't save me from a concussion, it could save me from lacerations and fractures.  So that's enough reason for me.

Re: tree skiing,  sure if won't help with chest wounds, but it will help with branches to the noggin, so I wear it for the trees as well.


----------



## HD333 (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't get why people would not wear a helmet. Some protection is better than none. A seat belt isn't a guarantee that you won't die in a crash but it sure gives you a better chance to survive.  I view wearing a helmet the same. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RootDKJ (Jan 2, 2014)

One day I was skiing and I took a fall off a small jump and the back of my head hit the ground and the little plastic piece that cinches the hood up slammed right into my skull and hurt like hell.  Got a helmet right after that.

That helmet protected me a few years later when I took a headfirst slide into the woods off Great Eastern down near Skyeship.  Totally didn't see that coming as I was just cruising at moderate speed on my way in. Interesting enough, my CamelPak provided decent back protection.  After my head bounced off the first tree, I got spun around and my back stopped my fall when I hit the second tree.  Interesting divot in the helmet.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jan 2, 2014)

One night at Bretton Woods I wrecked a helmet with a moderate speed forehead first plant into hard snow after skiing into a minefield of fluffy snow covered frozen dirt clods on the edge of a trail. I think I was very mildly concussed. I still feel that my helmet dissipated the shock enough to prevent a worse concussion. There was a serious dent in the front of the helmet. I also have a friend who put a dent in a MTB helmet and walked away (again, very mildly concussed). In both cases I think the head injuries would have been a lot worse. I'm under no illusion that a helmet is a cure all but I do believe can reduce the significance of head injury. By Snowlover's logic, we don't need to wear helmets in any sport we do.


----------



## teqeeler (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Sure I do.
> 
> But I understand the shaking of the brain is what causes the injury. I wore a helmet before and it did jack shit.  Then I looked at the data and understood the way the brain gets injured and how ineffective a helmet would be on a head to snow collision. It's kind of funny. I was hit full tilt on the head with a hockey stick(mcsorely type of baseball bat swing)....no head injury. Probably would have been dead without helmet. That TYPE of sharp high pound per square inch hit....a helmet is great. Rotational force injuries? Not so much unfortunately. It's my knowledge of that that guides my decision that a helmet would basically be useless in a head to snow impact. There are no rocks all over the trail where I ski so I'm not worried about hitting that.
> 
> ...




If i'm following your logic, do you believe hockey players should not wear helmets as a hockey puck to the head you can just "sew up" and all the head injuries are caused by shaking of the brain so a hockey helmet will do no good? 
BTW i don't wear a helmet. I don't ski tree's but if I did wear a helmet i'd would be a lot more apt to ski tree's thus increasing my danger imo. I'm sure helmets give alot of people a great sense of security thus taking more chances then they normally would. But i still might wear a helmet , i've never fell and hit my head before but if i did i'm sure a helmet would help cusion the blow.
I agree with you with taking it easy on the slopes will reduce alot of risk.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2014)

While tree skiing it protects your head from getting stabbed by branches. Came out of some tight trees on Mittersill with branches stabbed into the vents of my helmet.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

teqeeler said:


> If i'm following your logic, do you believe hockey players should not wear helmets as a hockey puck to the head you can just "sew up" and all the head injuries are caused by shaking of the brain so a hockey helmet will do no good?
> BTW i don't wear a helmet. I don't ski tree's but if I did wear a helmet i'd would be a lot more apt to ski tree's thus increasing my danger imo. I'm sure helmets give alot of people a great sense of security thus taking more chances then they normally would. But i still might wear a helmet , i've never fell and hit my head before but if i did i'm sure a helmet would help cusion the blow.
> I agree with you with taking it easy on the slopes will reduce alot of risk.



I know I said I was done, but I want to answer this question. A puck to the head is sharp/hard object with a high pounds per square inch of force. It will/can fracture a skull. When you fracture a skull you cause brain damage obviously, but in a different manner than shaking. A helmet will protect against fracture. That's why I used the example of a guy hitting me over the head with a hockey stick. A helmet is a MUST in ice hockey. It's completely different type of injury than falling on your head on soft snow. If you hit your head hard enough to fracture your skull on soft snow than the concussive forces will likely be fatal anyway. I don't see what the controversy here is. I've simply stated that helmets are overrated in their ability to protect in skiing falls by novices/people taking it easy. By all means, if you feel safer wearing a helmet than wear one. It does make you a "little" safer. It's just not this HUGE difference that people think it makes.

One of the misconceptions is that helmet is of biggest help to a novice and useless for someone doing big air in terrain park/high speeds. This is actually the opposite. The helmet is of more use for someone in terrain park because of the sharp/hard impacts that potentially exist in a terrain park. The terrain park is a very dangerous place. I call it the trauma park.

There are definitely some fluke type of falls that a helmet will help you with.
 Example.... A helmet lowers injury risk in following type of events:

1)you fall on snow, than roll and hit a tree at low speed indirectly. ---If you're not charging and on wide trails this a big time fluke. If you don't go near the edge and don't really fast, very low probability.
2)All kinds of things in the terrain park(lip of pipe, rails/box's)--- Common
3)falling and cracking your head on a snow gun/lift tower that has no padding. All this stuff should be out of the way.
4)Somebody else is wearing a helmet and runs into you "head on head" and you're NOT wearing a helmet. Most of the force will transferred to you. That's the thing I'd be most worried about.

Again I look at what I'm doing on the mountain and make the calculation  I'm messing around on small local hills around here to get some exercise so a helmet seems like a little much for ME. The only reason I even started talking about this is because of powder ridge's helmet rule. I don't care what anyone else wears. Stay safe out there.


----------



## dlague (Jan 2, 2014)

Here is a simple test!

Get a hammer, hit yourself in the head with it - how did it feel?
Now put a helmet on, using the same hammer, hit yourself in the head again - now how did it feel?

Hammers that are around while skiing - lift bars, other people's skis, branches even an awkward tumble where the head hits the snow pack

I wear a helmet - not because I think I am safe at higher speeds but to provide some protection during the smaller/slower events.  BTW, I actually find mine to be quite warm on those really cold days.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

dlague said:


> Here is a simple test!
> 
> Get a hammer, hit yourself in the head with it - how did it feel?
> Now put a helmet on, using the same hammer, hit yourself in the head again - now how did it feel?
> .



That's a skull fracture impact. Helmet absolutely protects against that type of impact. Please see my above post We posted at the same time.lol


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2014)

I have nothing against wearing a helmet. I've been thinking of getting one myself one of these days. I guess I've been lucky since I've been skiing 53 years without one & haven't banged my head once. Yes I ski just about everything on piste & in the woods. Now if I could find something to protect my arms, wrists, fingers, ribs, legs, knees & ankles I would have been all over it years ago. Those are the only things I've hurt, some of them several times.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> I have nothing against wearing a helmet. I've been thinking of getting one myself one of these days. I guess I've been lucky since I've been skiing 53 years without one & haven't banged my head once. Yes I ski just about everything on piste & in the woods. Now if I could find something to protect my arms, wrists, fingers, ribs, legs, knees & ankles I would have been all over it years ago. Those are the only things I've hurt, some of them several times.


 If there should be any rule on a mountain for safety it would ban non-reasable snow blades(leg breakers) and make high quality wrist guards/tail bone pads mandatory for snowboarders.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

Most likely injuries for skiing and snowboarding are broken wrists, leg fractures(greatly reduced by releasable bindings), ankle fractures(greatly reduced by hard boots), mcl/acl knee inury, and tail bone injuries.


----------



## C-Rex (Jan 2, 2014)

No, helmets will not save you 100% of the time.  Far from it.  But there is a whole range of possible impacts where a helmet WILL save you.  It's your brain, the most important organ in your body, why not do what you can to protect it?  I, for one, don't want to be sitting in a hospital with brain damage, having a doctor tell me that it could have been avoided with a helmet, but I was more worried about fashion so now I look badass while licking a window in the lodge instead of getting back out there and riding.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Most likely injuries for skiing and snowboarding are broken wrists, leg fractures(greatly reduced by releasable bindings), ankle fractures(greatly reduced by hard boots), mcl/acl knee inury, and tail bone injuries.



I've done every one except the tail bone. Hard boots didn't prevent my ankle from being broken last year and yes my bindings did release immediately.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 2, 2014)

i hear a helmet cuz it makes me look good


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> I've done every one except the tail bone. Hard boots didn't prevent my ankle from being broken last year and yes my bindings did release immediately.


Tail bone= snowboard
Look at injury statistics of non releasable bindings vs. releasable. It was about a 15 to 1 reduction. Huge enormous difference. Of course you can still get injured, but their is no question at their effectiveness at reducing risk by about 1500%
Same with hard boots. People would fracture their ankle and never be able to walk right all the same with soft boots. Hard boots are much safer.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

C-Rex said:


> No, helmets will not save you 100% of the time.  Far from it.  But there is a whole range of possible impacts where a helmet WILL save you.  It's your brain, the most important organ in your body, why not do what you can to protect it?  I, for one, don't want to be sitting in a hospital with brain damage, having a doctor tell me that it could have been avoided with a helmet, but I was more worried about fashion so now I look badass while licking a window in the lodge instead of getting back out there and riding.


I don't care about fashion. Helmets look fine. I just feel more free without one.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2014)

far out


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 2, 2014)

Don't feed the Troll! 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I don't care about fashion. Helmets look fine. I just feel more free without one.


do you ski bumps? come hang out @ sundown in march.  we all ditch the helmets and get a nice tan skiing the bumps on gunny.


----------



## C-Rex (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> I don't care about fashion. Helmets look fine. I just feel more free without one.




Oh, well yeah, I mean every time I put my helmet on I get a flashback to that tiger cage in Nam.:roll:


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Don't feed the Troll!
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


 Just because someone disagree's with the group doesn't make them a troll. A troll ONLY posts to try to get a reaction. Period. They actually don't even care what they are talking about.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

Wear a helmet if you want to....what do you even care what I think? 
Peace


----------



## CoolMike (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm not well informed with regards to the study of helmet use, but I am a scientist in the health care space.

I read the article and I have these comments:

1. Helmet use appears to decrease the chance of non-serious head injuries.  These injuries can ruin your day.  Just last week I fell and hit my head on some ice and with the exception of a sore neck I was fine.  Without the helmet I could have been concussed but would have definitely had a serious lump on my head.

2. One study does not prove or disprove a complicated hypothesis like the effects on morbidity and mortality of helmet use.  The opinions of 'experts' does even less to prove or disprove these effects.  A multi-study meta-analysis is needed at the least, but multiple such studies and panel reviews would be needed to be convincing.

3. The lack of a measure-able reduction of serious head injury from wearing helmets does not mean helmets do not save lives.  In health science there is VERY often a disconnect between the morbidity safety data of a device and the mortality safety data of a device.  I know of countless devices and procedures which show no benefit for mortality but significant benefit for morbidity and quality of life.  I'm sure there a numerous devices and procedures which show little benefit for morbidity and significant benefit for mortality.

Wear a helmet if you want to, don't wear one if you don't like them, it makes no difference to me!


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Just because someone disagree's with the group doesn't make them a troll. A troll ONLY posts to try to get a reaction. Period. They actually don't even care what they are talking about.



Sound familiar? How many times did you say something to the effect of, I'm done...? 

Sure, I know what opinions are like... But most people only have one asshole. 
Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


----------



## TheArchitect (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover, did you see this post?  MIPS helmets are designed to reduce concussions specifically.  Both my sons wear POC MIPs helmets for this reason.



RENO said:


> This is changing a lot with MIPS technology. http://mipshelmet.com/home I always wear a helmet, but I'm looking to get one of these for Snowboarding and mountain biking. Selection isn't big yet, but it's increasing. A few I like in here:  http://mipshelmet.com/find-a-helmet


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Sound familiar? How many times did you say something to the effect of, I'm done...?


Once but people kept asking me questions/attacking so it continued. Not rocket science assmouth.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

TheArchitect said:


> Snowlover, did you see this post?  MIPS helmets are designed to reduce concussions specifically.  Both my sons wear POC MIPs helmets for this reason.


Wow an actual post with something reasonable and not a personal attack/asshole snarky comments. Sounds promising.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 2, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Sound familiar? How many times did you say something to the effect of, I'm done...?
> 
> Sure, I know what opinions are like... But most people only have one asshole.
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


Interesting. So what's it like having 2 assholes?


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Interesting. So what's it like having 2 assholes?



Hmm, not sure where you got that idea? The point I was trying to make is that you have expressed your opinion NUMEROUS TIMES. Stop being such a post whore. 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 2, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Most likely injuries for skiing and snowboarding are broken wrists, leg fractures(greatly reduced by releasable bindings), ankle fractures(greatly reduced by hard boots), mcl/acl knee inury, and tail bone injuries.



The #1 injury is broken thumb.



CoolMike said:


> In health science there is VERY often a disconnect between the morbidity safety data of a device and the mortality safety data of a device.  I know of countless devices and procedures which show no benefit for mortality but significant benefit for morbidity and quality of life.



Call it a hunch, but somehow I think this point will be lost on _some_.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 2, 2014)

My only curiosity remaining in this thread is JUST how SLOW _does_ Snowlover ski?


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 2, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> Stop being such a post whore.



hey, nothing wrong with post whoring, it increases the odds for the next give-away


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 2, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> hey, nothing wrong with post whoring, it increases the odds for the next give-away



Yeah his... Not MINE !! 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 2, 2014)

Greg said:


> [Originally posted by Lisamer]:
> 
> Skied Mt. Sunapee for the first time today. Having visited, in the short time I've been skiing, mostly larger resorts, it was interesting to see a place that's slightly less commercial, but not archaic in its operations. The place seems to maintain the charm of a ski resort from "days of yore", while providing the amenities of decent snowmaking and lift operation. And since I rarely get fridays off, it was great to be at a place that was practically empty. Conditions weren't too bad for this time of year, especially compared to last season. Maybe a bit hard packed and slightly icy, but hey, were' New Englanders, we can handle it, right?
> I wonder if anyone has noticed that when you go out west, there could be someone whose technique is infinitely better than yours, but if they hit an ice patch they try to start turning and controlling everything, rather than just sliding over the darn stuff. I wonde if they do the same thing in their Ford Explorers, when the Firestone tires start to skid a bit?
> ...



Still waiting to win one this year. Wonder if they will be another contest soon hearing Hunter tickets that would be awesome.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 2, 2014)

Scotty said:


> Still waiting to win one this year. Wonder if they will be another contest soon hearing Hunter tickets that would be awesome.


 
I was quoting a the last post here I don't know I guess my phone has a virus don't know were that came from xxx maybe.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Jan 2, 2014)

let's just pretend, that a helmet does absolutely nothing to protect you it for a concussion. there are still many other injuries that it does protect you for.
Yes you can still hurt yourself wearing a helmet, it is jot a force shield surounding you. There are people who think its a perfect way to protect them entireley.
I just think its crazy for you to sit there and say that it is useless to wear one.
Lets hear the "data" on the number of dr's that have told people if only he hadnt have been wearing a helmet vs the other way around....

Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## catskills (Jan 2, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> hey, nothing wrong with post whoring, it increases the odds for the next give-away



The OP could use a new helmet gift card.  :wink: My current helmet is dented.


----------



## Not Sure (Jan 2, 2014)

This sums up the answer for me !!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15494&highlight=head+injury
Yikes!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> do you ski bumps? come hang out @ sundown in march.  we all ditch the helmets and get a nice tan skiing the bumps on gunny.



Make sure he brings his fat boards for floating.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 3, 2014)

I've had two instances where a helmet likely saved me from horrible head injury or maybe even death, one from skiing and one from mtb. Both times still ended with bad concussion and both times I had injury to my neck (one of those being pretty serious) and both times the helmet was shattered. Believe what you want but nothing anyone can say will convince me helmets are useless.


----------



## SkiFanE (Jan 3, 2014)

Helmets will not save you from everything...the speed of skiers make that impossible.  And last I checked, the front of head was not protected.  My husband survived a traumatic brain injury wearing a helmet (hit front of face)...although he was med-flighted, ICU, rehab, out of work 6 months...and we're very lucky he recovered...the nuerosurgeon said on a scale of TBI he was 1, maybe a 2.  And look what the outcome was.  Like someone above said...it was the sloshing back/forth of brain on impact that caused his contusion.  We all wear helmets in my family, and I know for myself it's saved me from some head pain, probably concussion, sticks, chair safety bars...but I ski with such speed control because I know ultimately...I can still get myself killed with a helmet.  I am not sure everyone worries about that like I do, can't get myself to go the speeds I see people doing.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 3, 2014)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I just think its crazy for you to sit there and say that it is useless to wear one.


I never said that at all. Pay attention to exactly what I said.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jan 4, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> If you're worried about head injury, then don't ski tree's. Seriously,  A helmet isn't going to do anything if you go head first into a tree.



Not necessarily true. I've smacked helmets into trees plenty of times. Never took a really hard DIRECT hit at speed while skiing.

However mountain biking I've gone head first directly into trees a few times and the helmet might have saved my life each time.


----------



## darent (Jan 4, 2014)

Scotty said:


> I love my helmet keeps me warm and hit many stems and branches that would have hurt a lot if not for the helmet. Just got figure out a way of fixing the ear piece.


scotty hit the #2 reason to wear a helmet, keeps the noggin warm, my hat always let the bottom of my ears freezw.


----------



## fbrissette (Jan 4, 2014)

darent said:


> scotty hit the #2 reason to wear a helmet, keeps the noggin warm, my hat always let the bottom of my ears freezw.



And you don't get the itchy scalp you get with a tuque.


----------



## billski (Jan 4, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> No. I don't feel it would do anything for me if I hit my head on the snow. I don't do terrain park and I don't ski fast.


Friend of mine wiped out on the groomer and slid off trail into a tree.   What have I got to lose by wearing it?  I like the other beni's helmets have - great sound systems while I can still hear my surroundings.  Warm as can be, especially when the wind is whipping.

Since my neurologist told me my next concussion will be my last and told me not to ski any more, I have reached detente' with her.  I looked for the best possible helmet to minimize the potential for injury, even if by a fraction.  I researched the hell out of it and settled on a POC Backcountry helmet with MIPS Technology.  http://mipshelmet.com/how-it-works  Since most impacts are oblique, I am persuaded that this shell, with a shearable pin provides a bit more protection.  I also replace my helmet after one good smack.  I may be cheap, but this is one place I'll pay top dollar, since I only live once.


----------



## Big Game (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey I wear a helmet cause it makes my ass look smaller (really). But to each is own. For those who love to mandate safety obligations on others, consider: 

The #1 thing we could do to reduce automobile fatalities and TBI is to require all occupants to wear helmets. So should we impose an automobile helmet law? Isn't safety first?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2014)

Big Game said:


> *For those who love to mandate safety obligations on others*, consider:



Has there been a single person in this 115 post thread that suggested that?


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 5, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Has there been a single person in this 115 post thread that suggested that?


Yes powder ridge mandates it and probably more in the future due to savings in insurance policies. The whole point of my posting was to try to show that it's not as effective than people think it is. It does have benefits, but it should be up to the individual to decide.


----------



## snoseek (Jan 5, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Yes powder ridge mandates it and probably more in the future due to savings in insurance policies. The whole point of my posting was to try to show that it's not as effective than people think it is. It does have benefits, but it should be up to the individual to decide.


It should be the riders decision, I agree with that. I wear mine mostly to protect from other skiers/riders. Groomers are probably statistically more dangerous than trees. Skis and poles are sharp, people go faster than their ability allows often


----------



## billski (Jan 5, 2014)

Snowlover said:


> Just as likely to die falling in a bathroom and helmet probably wouldn't have done anything for he sadly.



I never understood boxing as anything much more than a sanctioned street fight.  By design, the sport produces concussions, almost promotes them.  Headgear and gloves do absolutely nothing.


----------



## Snowlover (Jan 5, 2014)

billski said:


> I never understood boxing as anything much more than a sanctioned street fight.  By design, the sport produces concussions, almost promotes them.  Headgear and gloves do absolutely nothing.


Exactly. Gloves protect the bones of hands. Headgear stops bruising/cuts. It does nothing for shaking of the brain/concussion.

Yes, the point of boxing is to concuss the opponent. And the worst part is the repeated concussions. In other words, the person takes a punch and gets a concussion(he's dizzy and can barely stand/knocked down). Then they let the fight continue and he gets repeatedly concussed/knocked down! Numerous research has shown that a second concussion happening too soon after the first one causes massive brain damage. That's why they always pull the guy out of the game in football. They don't pull you out in boxing. It's barbaric.


----------



## mattchuck2 (Jan 5, 2014)

Big Game said:


> For those who love to mandate safety obligations on others, consider:
> 
> The #1 thing we could do to reduce automobile fatalities and TBI is to require all occupants to wear helmets. So should we impose an automobile helmet law? Isn't safety first?



Right. The same arguments that people make in this thread for helmets could be made for Spine Protectors. Or giant rubberized body suits. Everybody draws their own lines in the sand about where safety measures become too burdensome/annoying/unfashionable. And it's just dickish to make fun of people for where they draw their own personal lines.


----------



## fahz (Jan 5, 2014)

Great for riding then ski chairs!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2014)

My new ski suit, AND without a helmet!


----------



## catsup948 (Jan 6, 2014)

I have been wearing a helmet for 6 years and I would never ski without it.  I feel safer, warmer and more comfortable.  Before I started wearing a helmet I had several skiing related concussions since I started wearing one I have had none.  Granted I'm a safer, smarter skier now.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## Not Sure (Jan 6, 2014)

Ah Soooooooo. Need Some sPA TiMe LOL
Enjoy.Oldie but goodie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ecjsj8K5s0


----------

