# Home Improvement Hell  - Ice Dam Recovery...



## Bostonian (Mar 3, 2015)

So this thread is going to serve as a record for my home improvement woes as a result of the ice and snow this past winter.

With the lack of skiing this past month due to the home issues, I figured I would share with you guys the journey I have undertaken in getting my home fixed.  This all started on February 10th, and here we are March 3rd and a wall hasn't been opened up yet.

In the time that's passed, I have been dealing with the Insurance Company, unlicensed contractors (who I kick out of my house frequently), the division of insurance in the state of massachusetts and more.  

Finally, I have gotten an estimate to do water mitigation in my house.  That price is $5500... this only is to open the walls, and dry things out... Not to restore the house jkust yet.  

Anyone who is dealing with this, make sure that you have a contractor who is properly licensed in massachusetts (if you are in mass).  It's a nightmare but a processes needed to follow.    Maybe just maybe if I am lucky, I will get on the snow Thursday or Saturday...

photos to come later!


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## Puck it (Mar 3, 2015)

You know that insurance does not pay to fix the leaking roof from the ice dam.  Right?  They are only responsible for the damage and sometimes they will require that there is proof the original problem was fixed.


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## billski (Mar 3, 2015)

Puck it said:


> You know that insurance does not pay to fix the leaking roof from the ice dam.  Right?  They are only responsible for the damage and sometimes they will require that there is proof the original problem was fixed.


  You usually can get riders to cover this sort of stuff.  For a fee of course.

What I hate is there is not a damned thing you can do about it while it's happening, other than empty five gallons at a time every half hour or so.  We did everything everyone advised, snow/ice shield under the shingles, soffit reconstruction, new ventilation, new insulation, new ridge vent and including shoveling the entire roof off.  No ice dams this year (a little last year), but huge (1 foot thick) ice dams and icicles that need slicing daily.


How old is your house?


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## hammer (Mar 3, 2015)

Who is the best type of contractor to get for preventive work?  Looks like we dodged a bullet (may want to have the gutters rechecked to make sure they didn't get damaged from the ice weight), but I'm sure we need to have a few things done in one area of the house.


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## Puck it (Mar 3, 2015)

billski said:


> You usually can get riders to cover this sort of stuff. For a fee of course.
> 
> What I hate is there is not a damned thing you can do about it while it's happening, other than empty five gallons at a time every half hour or so. We did everything everyone advised, snow/ice shield under the shingles, soffit reconstruction, new ventilation, new insulation, new ridge vent and including shoveling the entire roof off. *No ice dams this year (a little last year), but huge (1 foot thick) ice dams and icicles that need slicing daily.
> 
> ...


  The bold section makes no sense.  You didn't have and you did.  The only way to prevent them for sure that I can think of is to spray foam the inside of the roof.  Rafters and sheeving.  This is keep the whole roof cold with any air leakage from the warm interior.  My problem was the ridge vent was covered with snow and this allowed the attic to heat up due to the lack of circulation.


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## hammer (Mar 3, 2015)

Puck it said:


> The bold section makes no sense.  You didn't have and you did.  The only way to prevent them for sure that I can think of is to spray foam the inside of the roof.  Rafters and sheeving.  This is keep the whole roof cold with any air leakage from the warm interior.  *My problem was the ridge vent was covered with snow and this allowed the attic to heat up due to the lack of circulation.*



Wonder what can be done for the ridge vent issue.

Don't you need to put baffles of some sort to allow for air flow between the rafters?  When I had my attic finished, that's what I did.  Maybe that's not needed if you keep the attic unfinished.

Helps some but based on this year not enough...


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## Puck it (Mar 3, 2015)

hammer said:


> Wonder what can be done for the ridge vent issue.
> 
> Don't you need to put baffles of some sort to allow for air flow between the rafters? When I had my attic finished, that's what I did. Maybe that's not needed if you keep the attic unfinished.
> 
> Helps some but based on this year not enough...


 Yes air flow is key if it is fiber insulation.  Foam can be sprayed directly and it prevents air leaks.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 3, 2015)

Puck it said:


> The bold section makes no sense.  You didn't have and you did.  The only way to prevent them for sure that I can think of is to spray foam the inside of the roof.  Rafters and sheeving.  This is keep the whole roof cold with any air leakage from the warm interior.  My problem was the ridge vent was covered with snow and this allowed the attic to heat up due to the lack of circulation.



When you apply spray foam directly on the bottom of the roof sheathing (or otherwise have an unvented roof with no airspace between the insulation and sheathing), you have what is known as a "hot roof".   You are correct though about the importance of preventing air leaks.  


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 3, 2015)

hammer said:


> Wonder what can be done for the ridge vent issue.
> 
> Don't you need to put baffles of some sort to allow for air flow between the rafters?  When I had my attic finished, that's what I did.  Maybe that's not needed if you keep the attic unfinished.
> 
> Helps some but based on this year not enough...



IMO and experience, the baffles you refer to are not substantial enough to serve as an adequate air space.  The volume of air is small, and the baffles themselves are easily crushed and rendered ineffective.  

I sometimes see insulation installed too far into the soffit which also restricts air flow.  


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## Puck it (Mar 3, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> IMO and experience, the baffles you refer to are not substantial enough to serve as an adequate air space.  The volume of air is small, and the baffles themselves are easily crushed and rendered ineffective.
> 
> I sometimes see insulation installed too far into the soffit which also restricts air flow.
> 
> ...


i am thinking about rigid foam insulation slid between the rafters tightly.  I will run that all the way to top of the wall leaving a gap so air can flow. It will act like a longer baffle which I have all ready. It should also stop air leaks from the wall and ceiling.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 3, 2015)

Puck it said:


> i am thinking about rigid foam insulation slid between the rafters tightly.  I will run that all the way to top of the wall leaving a gap so air can flow. It will act like a longer baffle which I have all ready. It should also stop air leaks from the wall and ceiling.



This is a great way to do it.  Use something like strapping nailed to the side of the rafter to act as a nailer and an air gap.  You can also leave a small gap for spray foam for a tighter install. 


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## hammer (Mar 3, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> IMO and experience, the baffles you refer to are not substantial enough to serve as an adequate air space.  The volume of air is small, and the baffles themselves are easily crushed and rendered ineffective.
> 
> I sometimes see insulation installed too far into the soffit which also restricts air flow.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately unless I rip out drywall that's what I have...:???:

Attic has kneewalls with insulation behind them so the soffits are clear.  Could it help to add foam insulation to the back of the kneewalls as well?


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 3, 2015)

hammer said:


> Unfortunately unless I rip out drywall that's what I have...:???:
> 
> Attic has kneewalls with insulation behind them so the soffits are clear.  Could it help to add foam insulation to the back of the kneewalls as well?



Do you have an access panel to get behind the knee wall?  I'm guessing that you probably don't, but if you do, I would check to make certain that the baffles extend down below the insulation and are not blocked.  Also, as puck it mentioned, make sure that your ridge vent isn't covered with snow (although it shouldn't be since you had your roof shoveled).  As for adding additional insulation behind your knee wall, I wouldn't expect to see any significant benefit if it is already insulated.  I would check for air leaks though.  


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## Geoff (Mar 3, 2015)

Why not install de-icing cable?


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## Puck it (Mar 4, 2015)

Geoff said:


> Why not install de-icing cable?


  Those really don't work very well.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 4, 2015)

I'll be able to give better a better account on roof heating cables next winter.  I had roof wires installed this fall but unfortunately I didnt get the feeder/power lines installed until after the 2nd or 3rd major storm a month ago, by which point we already had ice damns and water running down walls.  We had a roof guy clear snow and chisel channels in the worst of the dams. Once the heater system went live it has successfully maintained those channels and melted new tunnels elsewhere, and water stopped entering (AFAIK). 

The wires are designed to maintain drainage paths on an initially clear roof, not to keep the eave completely clear and definitely not to melt down existing dams.  So that said it'll probably be next winter before I know if my system actually works as expected. Unless I get a complete melt out followed by more heavy snow this season, which seems doubtful but who knows...


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## Cannonball (Mar 4, 2015)

I'm considering removing my gutters except where I really need them. They are one of the biggest contributing factors to the whole problem.  My parents did this a few years ago and solved all of their ice dam woes. Just need to address water management around the foundation in other ways.


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## Bostonian (Mar 4, 2015)

Puck it said:


> You know that insurance does not pay to fix the leaking roof from the ice dam.  Right?  They are only responsible for the damage and sometimes they will require that there is proof the original problem was fixed.



So after fighting with our insurance company, they do cover damage to the roof caused by ice and the interior too.  They asked for us to clear the roof of any ice damming (which will happen with todays r*in)...   And then they are paying for the mitigation and restoration.    Where I was running into problems was that they were looking to push unlicensed people to do the demolition necessary to mitigate.  I also have a general contractor ready for the restoration and other repairs as a result.




billski said:


> You usually can get riders to cover this sort of stuff.  For a fee of course.
> 
> What I hate is there is not a damned thing you can do about it while it's happening, other than empty five gallons at a time every half hour or so.  We did everything everyone advised, snow/ice shield under the shingles, soffit reconstruction, new ventilation, new insulation, new ridge vent and including shoveling the entire roof off.  No ice dams this year (a little last year), but huge (1 foot thick) ice dams and icicles that need slicing daily.
> 
> ...



No rider needed in this case, as it was in our plan.   In terms of the next steps, we will be doing some work on the soffits and ice shield.  working to get the insurance to cover it as due to the damage sustained by the snow and ice has damaged our roof.



hammer said:


> Who is the best type of contractor to get for preventive work?  Looks like we dodged a bullet (may want to have the gutters rechecked to make sure they didn't get damaged from the ice weight), but I'm sure we need to have a few things done in one area of the house.


Always go with someone who is local and has a CSL and HIC license.  thats your best bet.


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## xwhaler (Mar 4, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> I'm considering removing my gutters except where I really need them. They are one of the biggest contributing factors to the whole problem.  My parents did this a few years ago and solved all of their ice dam woes. Just need to address water management around the foundation in other ways.


I don't have gutters on my house at all and have never had even a hint of ice dams in the 8 yrs I've been there. The lack of gutters does create some splash up from the water draining off the roof and onto the mulch. 
So you may have some extra power washing to do if it bothers you.

It also drains off my roof onto my deck which peels/wears the stain pretty quickly in a vertical line. I consider these 2 things more nuisances I can much more easily correct than ice dams.


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## Puck it (Mar 4, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> I don't have gutters on my house at all and have never had even a hint of ice dams in the 8 yrs I've been there. The lack of gutters does create some splash up from the water draining off the roof and onto the mulch.
> So you may have some extra power washing to do if it bothers you.
> 
> It also drains off my roof onto my deck which peels/wears the stain pretty quickly in a vertical line. I consider these 2 things more nuisances I can much more easily correct than ice dams.



I have no gutters and I get ice but no real ice dams.  I have a few icicles coming out of the soffit vent but nothing inside.


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## Geoff (Mar 4, 2015)

I have a French drain around my foundation and a 6" PVC drainage pipe that runs across my neighbor's back yard.  My gutter/drainpipe system feeds into PVC pipes next to the perforated pipes in the French drain system.  The roof on my house is U-shaped with three sides ending up on a 10x10 flat roof.  The gutter and drain pipe there are completely frozen up.   I think that a de-icing cable that runs from the gutter down the drain pipe and to the concrete manhole in the back yard would fix the problem.   I could also set up a matrix of de-icing cable on the flat roof and up the three pitched roof sections to get all of that to melt out so I don't need to shovel it.  Once I have black roof exposed, it will all melt out fairly quickly in South Dartmouth.  One 200 foot cable would likely suffice since the house is so tiny.

The whole roof is a big plastic bag.  The EPDM rubber roof runs 3 feet up the pitched roof and has ice & water shield over that and up the valleys.  The rest of the roof has a waterproof Grace TriFlex underlayment that's rated for 6 months of water-tight without roofing shingles.  I have a big overhang so the water has no path into the house.


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## billski (Mar 4, 2015)

Puck it said:


> I have no gutters and I get ice but no real ice dams.  I have a few icicles coming out of the soffit vent but nothing inside.


  It's a necessary evil  We have an absolutely flat yard, and need to drain the roof water away from the house.  We've had a couple bad floods, even with a french drain and sump.


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## Puck it (Mar 4, 2015)

billski said:


> It's a necessary evil We have an absolutely flat yard, and need to drain the roof water away from the house. We've had a couple bad floods, even with a french drain and sump.



Sloping yard and no basement water problem.  My neighbor to my right is a different story though. He gets all my water.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 4, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Sloping yard and no basement water problem.  My neighbor to my right is a different story though. He gets all my water.


I live at top of hill, highest point in town (a water tower in my 'hood).  We have a french drain and except for when a kid left the hose running all night in front of the house, never any water...and seeing we are at a high point, makes sense.  Our neighbor has a beautiful finished basement and it has been water damaged 2x... wtf?  Don't get why they don't deal with it - our houses are all similar 1970-era construction.  Don't get why insurance will just keep paying every few years.  

Our last house did not have gutters - but these things (that we were told were 'european') that were like flat metal with slanted slats in them that hung where the gutter should be.  So they dispersed the water from the roof so it didn't come in one stream down to the ground.  It was a ranch, so not much vertical to fall, worked very well and never a problem with ice dams.  Knock on wood no water in house - but it helps we have a garrison colonial, so I think the water may be going down/inside the walls til it reaches the outside above the first level - but nothing in our window sills like a few years ago.  Crossing fingers...lots of melting today.


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## Bostonian (Mar 12, 2015)

So a few updates...

The upstairs of our house has been pretty much dried out and the water mitigation contractors are beginning the downstairs as we speak.  it's been quite a chaotic week here, with a brief asbestos scare, but progress is being had!  Soon we will be getting new insulation, and blue board to put up.  I am eager to get my contractor to start...


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