# Vail Resorts is buying Peak Resorts.



## mbedle (Jul 22, 2019)

https://www.peakpass.com/epic-faq/?_ga=2.149988722.530053122.1563794705-337120466.1563650414

Wasn't expecting that to happen.

http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/peakresorts.htm

264 million.


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## njdiver85 (Jul 22, 2019)

Just saw this.  Went to look for comments on the season pass holder forum for Mount Snow and was locked out.  Big changes are coming, and probably even bigger crowds.  Ughhh!



mbedle said:


> https://www.peakpass.com/epic-faq/?_ga=2.149988722.530053122.1563794705-337120466.1563650414
> 
> Wasn't expecting that to happen.
> 
> ...


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Wildcat’s Instagram post nearly made me pass out 10 minutes ago. 



WILDCAT A VAIL MOUNTAIN? What in the actual fuck?


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## Pez (Jul 22, 2019)

Can’t say I’m too surprised.  There was no way Peaks was profitable. 

Maybe Attitash will get a new lift or 2

I can only see mount snow getting more expensive and more crowded. 


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Had I known this I certainly wouldn’t have bought the Ikon along with the Peak pass. The Epic Local pass kicks ass even without early pricing. 


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## ss20 (Jul 22, 2019)

WOW!!!  The end of Peak Resorts... I really hope this does not stop the investment at both Mount Snow and Hunter.

Unfortunately...love it or hate it, Mount Snow was the closest big mountain for a lot of people on here and generally had pretty cheap online tickets and good deals.  That's gone now.  I also hope the Crotched contingent is going to be OK.  

In other news, there's a going to be a massive alcohol shortage in the Wildcat region for the coming days!!!   :lol:


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## ss20 (Jul 22, 2019)

BG, please give us your rationale on how Vail will come crashing down in the not-so-distant future...a lot of people need it right now!!!


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## Kleetus (Jul 22, 2019)

Anyone see mad river included in the promo list...uhh

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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 22, 2019)

so this is really a huge win for us people in the Mid-Atlantic.  When peaks bought the SOuthcentral PA Resorts, my home resorts, they really don't offer anything for me of interest besides wildcat.  Sure I would've eventually skied mounts snow, maybe hunter, and certainly the 2 Pocono's resorts.   But other than that not much that "excited" anyone.

Now we get merged into the Vail world, which obviously has its issues, but now I have an abundance of options at my disposal.


Any Chance this falls through due to SEC Bullshit?


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Kleetus said:


> Anyone see mad river included in the promo list...uhh
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using AlpineZone mobile app



Different place.


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## cdskier (Jul 22, 2019)

Kleetus said:


> Anyone see mad river included in the promo list...uhh





Edd said:


> Different place.



Yup...Peaks owned a Mad River Mountain in Ohio. 300 feet of vertical!


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 22, 2019)

I would imagine that Vail has had their eyes on mount snow for years.  Vail probably had to bite the bullet on the smaller resorts to get her! I'll be the first to say it, but it is clear that vail will try to get their hands on Haystack somehow.

That being said.....Very interesting times to be a landowner up there!


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## MommaBear (Jul 22, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Just saw this.  Went to look for comments on the season pass holder forum for Mount Snow and was locked out.



Tried the same earlier but got the "you are suspended" message.  Nice to know it wasn't just me.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

ss20 said:


> *BG, please give us your rationale on how Vail will come crashing down in the not-so-distant future...a lot of people need it right now!!!*



I've written here about my thoughts on this in the past, including how I thought Vail would buy Peaks sooner-rather-than-later, as they both needed each other. 

At the end of the day, I've seen this movie many times before, in numerous sectors, and I know how it ends.   The film is entitled, _"Growth through acquisition rather than organic results"_, and I've never seen it have a happy ending.  Not even once.   

Eventually you run out of, "stuff to buy", and your quality of acquisitions gets worse as you've already plucked the low-hanging-fruit, not to mention the benefits of scale decrease, also you ironically drive up the cost of future acquisitions via your own actions.  Growth stalls.  Stock drops.  Activist investors scream.  Ohhh....  and the current CEO probably jumps ship prior to this point (while things still look good) and declares victory, leaving the new CEO with the tough job.   This entire process will take some years though.

EDIT:   On the bright side though, BG pockets some SKIS cash from this lunacy.  :beer:


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## slatham (Jul 22, 2019)

I wonder when anti-trust concerns come up?


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## cdskier (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> EDIT:   On the bright side though, BG pockets some SKIS cash from this lunacy.  :beer:



Hah! I thought you had SKIS stock for some reason. This is one time I actually wish I had invested in something. The stock was so cheap for quite a while and Vail is paying a pretty nice price per share relatively speaking.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

cdskier said:


> *Hah! I thought you had SKIS stock for some reason.* This is one time I actually wish I had invested in something. The stock was so cheap for quite a while and Vail is paying a pretty nice price per share relatively speaking.



I broke one of my big investing rules to own it, that rule being, _never buy a stock simply because you think someone will aquire them._

SKIS is an absolutely terrible investment, just horrible, but I couldn't envision a scenario whereby Vail didn't buy them.  Peaks needed an exit from their financial idiocy & misery, and Vail desperately needed east coast access to keep their growth story going with Wall Street's institutional investors.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

Poor Stowe.  Going to be absolutely flooded with BENNY Hunter skiers now.   

Rest In Peace.


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

benedictgomez said:


> benny hunter skiers



benny?


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

Edd said:


> *benny?*



Ever hear of the MTV show, _Jersey Shore_?  

Those are Benny's (*B*ayonne, *E*lizabeth, *N*ewark, *NY* City).


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## drjeff (Jul 22, 2019)

slatham said:


> I wonder when anti-trust concerns come up?



Not sure it will, as if you take a look at where Vail's existing properties are, and where Peak's are, there's very little overlap, and with respect to New England, one could easily make the argument that post closing of the deal, that Alterra/Ikon will still have a greater share of the New England market.

Vail with this deal, just made it much more enticing for the skiers/riders up and down the I-95 corridor from Boston to DC, who aren't committed to a home mountain in the East, and like to take a trip or 2 out West a year, to go Epic, with now more day trip East Coast options (especially in the DC/Philly/NYC market) than IKON.  

And Peak buying the Snowtime resorts last year in the DC/Philly market, now looks to be an even better move, as I'm guessing that made Peak and their market share in that sizable population base, look even better.

Now the question is will Alterra pull a knee jerk move and quickly buy up say Jay/Burke or maybe even Mountain Creek or a Pocono or Catskills area to try and gain some more enticement for the now much more wide open Eastern multi-pass option market??


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## cdskier (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I broke one of my big investing rules to own it, that rule being, _never buy a stock simply because you think someone will aquire them._
> 
> SKIS is an absolutely terrible investment, just horrible, but I couldn't envision a scenario whereby Vail didn't buy them.  Peaks needed an exit from their financial idiocy & misery, and Vail desperately needed east coast access to keep their growth story going with Wall Street's institutional investors.



Yup...a potential acquisition definitely was the only reason to buy this one (which I agree in general is not a good reason to invest in a stock).


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ever hear of the MTV show, _Jersey Shore_?
> 
> Those are Benny's (*B*ayonne, *E*lizabeth, *N*ewark, *NY* City).



Ah, sounds grim [emoji846]


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## cdskier (Jul 22, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Now the question is will Alterra pull a knee jerk move and quickly buy up say Jay/Burke or maybe even Mountain Creek or a Pocono or Catskills area to try and gain some more enticement for the now much more wide open Eastern multi-pass option market??



Wasn't there already a rumor that Alterra was buying Camelback in the Poconos? I do think this puts pressure on Alterra though to do something more in the Northeast.


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## drewfidelic (Jul 22, 2019)

I was not looking forward to a future where Peak needed to focus on servicing their mountain of debt rather than investing in their ski mountains. Peak needed a buyer.  While it's possible that this leads to more skiers at Hunter and Mount Snow, I'm very happy to have a pass that includes my home mountain (Hunter) and throws in good options out west.

Hopefully this also means that the Summit chair at Attitash gets replaced sooner rather than later.


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## FBGM (Jul 22, 2019)

Fantastic news. Now these garbage dump resorts will become safe and normal and nice. Will take some time and money. 

Also, can’t wait to see the garbage peak resort employees get the ax! Will be a few months but it will happen. That mountain operations director that was the old owners son, yup see ya! Better shine up that resume. That moron guy that thinks he knows everything about snowmaking and capitol projects - yup gone. Go screw up something else because Vail don’t want ya. Anyone in marketing and sales should also shine the resume up. 

Good times good times. Be prepared for a reality check, then good times.


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## tnt1234 (Jul 22, 2019)

Huh.  If I wasn't such a picky day tripper, this would make an Epic Pass a no brainer.  But I'd rather ski Bell or Platty than Hunter, and Blue instead of JF.


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

drewfidelic said:


> Hopefully this also means that the Summit chair at Attitash gets replaced sooner rather than later.



I’m starting to think that chair is possessed and refuses to be removed, even by Vail the Mighty. 

The idea posted of them buying Haystack is interesting. God knows MS could benefit from a little crowd reduction (probably never happening). 

This’ll sound a bit crazy, but to increase the Wildcat skier visits, which they’ll surely want to do, I wonder if they’d consider buying this place for lodging. 



https://theglenhouse.com/

It’s only a year old, a mile from Wildcat, and a legitimately nice hotel with stunning views of the Presidentials. I went there several times last season for some apres ski. It would solve the issue of no lodging at Wildcat.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 22, 2019)

FBGM is this this official end of your irrational hatred for Mount Snow? Lets get a beer at the Bullwheel


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *Now the question is will Alterra pull a knee jerk move and quickly buy up say Jay/Burke or maybe even Mountain Creek or a Pocono or Catskills area*



Yes.*




*assuming they dont offer $13 for SKIS within the next 72 hours.


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## machski (Jul 22, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Not sure it will, as if you take a look at where Vail's existing properties are, and where Peak's are, there's very little overlap, and with respect to New England, one could easily make the argument that post closing of the deal, that Alterra/Ikon will still have a greater share of the New England market.
> 
> Vail with this deal, just made it much more enticing for the skiers/riders up and down the I-95 corridor from Boston to DC, who aren't committed to a home mountain in the East, and like to take a trip or 2 out West a year, to go Epic, with now more day trip East Coast options (especially in the DC/Philly/NYC market) than IKON.
> 
> ...


I disagree, I think Vail should have major antitrust concerns, especially in NH.  Vail now owns (not just partners with) Mount Snow and Okemo (so if you leave K out, they own almost 2/3 of the Southern VT market), Stowe and in NH Crotched, Sunapee, Attitash and Wildcat.  That could be trouble for them, though arguable still less than what ASC had when it was forced to divest Waterville, Cranmore and Sugarbush.  We'll see I guess.

You really cannot compare Vail to Alterra in the East, where ownership of resorts is concerned.  Yes, Ikon probably has more access in the East, but most of it is access only, not owned.  Alterra only owns Stratton, the rest of NE is partner resorts with limited access on the Ikon.

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## machski (Jul 22, 2019)

Edd said:


> I’m starting to think that chair is possessed and refuses to be removed, even by Vail the Mighty.
> 
> The idea posted of them buying Haystack is interesting. God knows MS could benefit from a little crowd reduction (probably never happening).
> 
> ...


What makes anyone think Vail will be quick to do much of anything liftwise in the East?  They haven't done squat at Stowe/Okemo/Sunapee yet.

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## mgalluzz (Jul 22, 2019)

machski said:


> What makes anyone think Vail will be quick to do much of anything liftwise in the East?  They haven't done squat at Stowe/Okemo/Sunapee yet.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Agreed, but Attitash did just comment on their Instagram page that there will be an announcement coming about the triple this week.  Having said that, they'll probably announce "investing $X million in these resorts" and then add an on mountain restaurant.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2019)

Crazy.


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## FBGM (Jul 22, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> FBGM is this this official end of your irrational hatred for Mount Snow? Lets get a beer at the Bullwheel



None of my hate was irrational. It was all accurate and depicted actual happenings and concerns. 

But yes, my hate to peak resorts was based on gross mismanagement of ski areas, operations, safety, funds and general management with heads up their asses and chips on their shoulders. This will now all change. It will take some time. But will change for the better. 

I’m no Vail fan boy but you can’t argue that they do ski areas right. Good changes to come to bad ski areas is a positive thing.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2019)

Yes, I'm sure an announcement is on the way that Vail will be burying 500 miles of snowmaking pipe throughout it's eastern portfolio. 

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## Newpylong (Jul 22, 2019)

machski said:


> I disagree, I think Vail should have major antitrust concerns, especially in NH.  Vail now owns (not just partners with) Mount Snow and Okemo (so if you leave K out, they own almost 2/3 of the Southern VT market), Stowe and in NH Crotched, Sunapee, Attitash and Wildcat.  That could be trouble for them, though arguable still less than what ASC had when it was forced to divest Waterville, Cranmore and Sugarbush.  We'll see I guess.
> 
> You really cannot compare Vail to Alterra in the East, where ownership of resorts is concerned.  Yes, Ikon probably has more access in the East, but most of it is access only, not owned.  Alterra only owns Stratton, the rest of NE is partner resorts with limited access on the Ikon.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Only a minor detail but they were not forced to divest Sugarbush (like Cranmore/WV) upon the formation of ASC (LBO + SKI). The sale to Summit Ventures came later as part of restructuring.


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## DoublePlanker (Jul 22, 2019)

This is EXCELLENT news.  I hope New Hampshire allows them to hold all of the acquired NH resorts.


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## triguy914 (Jul 22, 2019)

FBGM said:


> I’m no Vail fan boy but you can’t argue that they do ski areas right.



I don't know what this means. If I go to places like Vail & Beaver Creek, yes 100%, I am sure Park City/ Canyons are also 1st class(I've only ever skied Alta, Sbird & Deer Valley) as was Whistler when I was there in March. Per above, they've stated they are investing X at each acquisition, but you just don't see it. 

At Okemo/ Sunapee/ Crested Butte they stated $32 million in improvements. They are fixing up the summit lodge at Okemo & putting in a new snowmaking pipe, NOt seeing much aside from that. 

what have they actually done at Stowe? I think the idea there will be new lifts at any of these mountains any time soon that haven't already planned is a pipe dream. Vail's main purpose is to get more people on their pass to suck them out to the western mountains where they own the concessions, the van services, the ski shops & more. I argued in another thread here last year how Peaks made a great logical investment for them as it would capture more of the Boston Market (NH), Metro NY market (Hunter), Philadelphia Market (Poconos) and so forth. 

My logic is based on the largest populations of skiers that are driving to their Saturday Day Trip or weekend destination from major Metro cities. Put them on the Epic pass and some of these people will fly west. The only thing really remaining is to grab one of the NC mountains to Capture Charlotte and something in WV for the DC market.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 22, 2019)

They have the DC market now, as the Snowtime resorts that Peak bought last year is where the DC people go.


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## TheArchitect (Jul 22, 2019)

Alterra, please buy Jay and Burke in reaction to this.  Please?  I have the Ikon pass again this year.  Next year's pass purchase is going to be harder choice now without Jay and Burke on Ikon.


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## Tdizzle (Jul 22, 2019)

Edd said:


> benny?



Poor Stowe? Stowe was ruined years ago.


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## Tdizzle (Jul 22, 2019)

Sad day for this Hunter midweek rider


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

Tdizzle said:


> Sad day for this Hunter midweek rider



This wont affect a "Hunter midweek rider" much at all.  You'll pay a few hundred more per year than your Peaks midweek pass, but get access to a zillion more resorts.


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> This wont affect a "Hunter midweek rider" much at all.  You'll pay a few hundred more per year than your Peaks midweek pass, but get access to a zillion more resorts.



The diehard homers at local mountains are affected though. A few hundred more is stretching the budget for some folks. The comments on Wildcat’s Instagram page are making that clear. 

A guy like me is going to spend less in the end.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

Edd said:


> The diehard homers at local mountains are affected though.



Yeah, the people that literally only ski at 1 place ever will pay more, but realistically I have to imagine they are relatively few in number.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, the people that literally only ski at 1 place ever will pay more, but realistically I have to imagine they are relatively few in number.


I don't think that group is insignificant.  Small for sure.  Most ski bums would fall into that group.  They really only ski their home mountain midweek as they are too busy working over the weekends and the holidays to ski then.  So, large multi-mountain passes have little appeal.  

I'd think it would be a nice gesture for companies like Vail to offer a midweek one mountain locals pass for short money. 

Between the loss of midweek passes combined with rising day ticket costs, it doesn't appear the industry is really pushing to expand participation.  

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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, the people that literally only ski at 1 place ever will pay more, but realistically I have to imagine they are relatively few in number.



you would think that, but its not true for the local feeder hills.  Like there are hundreds of people that only ski at little Roundtop in PA and are diehard about it because it used to be cheap.  Those people freaked out in April, when Peaks slashed all of the snowtime discounts and forced their hand into a Peaks Pass.  

I go to VT and Go out west, so this is a good deal for me and Epic is much much better offering than a Peaks only scenario.  Even if it does mean mine pass price will have gone up $200 in 2 years. So what, now I can ski up North and out west and the skiing is "included"

I do worry about the long term viability of this, and BG's concerns are legit.


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## Jully (Jul 22, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Between the loss of midweek passes combined with rising day ticket costs, it doesn't appear the industry is really pushing to expand participation.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Attitash and Wildcat still had ticket prices in the $80 range and you could beat the window price substantially midweek with Liftopia. Those resorts were some of the last > 1500 vert places with prices like that in New England.


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## Jully (Jul 22, 2019)

Will be interesting to see what Vail does with local management. As long as Wildcat's management more or less stays in place, I care a lot less about this whole thing.

What do Kirkwood skiers think of Vail's management so far?


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## JimG. (Jul 22, 2019)

Vail closes all of their ski areas by mid-April.

So does this mean there is no longer any late season option for Vail/Peaks/Epic passholders?

That would suck for K passholders like myself.


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Epic offers a Military Pass which is crazy cheap. I’d previously thought it was for active and retirees only but it appears to be for veterans also, which I am. This post from Wildcat may be implying I could get a refund if I trade in the Peak Traveler for an Epic Military. If true, that would blow my mind.


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## mbedle (Jul 22, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Vail closes all of their ski areas by mid-April.
> 
> So does this mean there is no longer any late season option for Vail/Peaks/Epic passholders?
> 
> That would suck for K passholders like myself.



Vail is changing that plan, starting with Breckenridge and keystone this year. It will be interesting to see how the change the opening / closing schedule for wildcat next year.


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## drjeff (Jul 22, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think that group is insignificant.  Small for sure.  Most ski bums would fall into that group.  They really only ski their home mountain midweek as they are too busy working over the weekends and the holidays to ski then.  So, large multi-mountain passes have little appeal.
> 
> I'd think it would be a nice gesture for companies like Vail to offer a midweek one mountain locals pass for short money.
> 
> ...



Nice gesture, certainly. Especially to start off as being a "good" new member of the community.  

I also have a hunch, that many of those midweek only passes that locals and the retired crew often flock to, will show with the scan data that indeed they may only be used at 1 mountain all season, however they're used frequently enough all season long that their net cost per day amount at the end of the season is far lower than many other passholder demographics on a proportional basis.

This is certainly not a clear cut, easy issue to address, since at the end of it all, the ski industry is a business after all...


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## Tdizzle (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> This wont affect a "Hunter midweek rider" much at all.  You'll pay a few hundred more per year than your Peaks midweek pass, but get access to a zillion more resorts.



A few HUNDRED dollars more. I'm a local. I ride like twice a week. Maybe take 1 or 2 overnight trips a year to Smuggs. I have a gang of friends who do the same. I few HUNDRED dollars more hits hard.


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## thebigo (Jul 22, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Vail is changing that plan, starting with Breckenridge and keystone this year. It will be interesting to see how the change the opening / closing schedule for wildcat next year.



When did keystone and breckenridge close this year?

Edit: May 27, per this site: https://www.snowpak.com/colorado/breckenridge/opening-dates

Coupled with cheap flights to denver from bos, april school vacation at Breckenridge may become a yearly routine.


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## slatham (Jul 22, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Vail is changing that plan, starting with Breckenridge and keystone this year. It will be interesting to see how the change the opening / closing schedule for wildcat next year.



This change was only due to the loss of A-Basin and the early/late skiing it provided. Vail realized that for the Colorado local they had to counter this, and Keystone early with its snowmaking, and Breck late with its elevation was the plan. I would not interpret this as a company-wide, national effort to offer early and/or late skiing. There was certainly no added length to Stowe's season, and they had the snow to do so!


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## mbedle (Jul 22, 2019)

thebigo said:


> When did keystone and breckenridge close this year?



Breck was June 9th and the plan for next year is to open keystone a lot earlier to compete with a-basin.


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## slatham (Jul 22, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Vail is changing that plan, starting with Breckenridge and keystone this year. It will be interesting to see how the change the opening / closing schedule for wildcat next year.



This change was only due to the loss of A-Basin and the early/late skiing it provided. Vail realized that for the Colorado local they had to counter this, and Keystone early with its snowmaking, and Breck late with its elevation was the plan. I would not interpret this as a company-wide, national effort to offer early and/or late skiing. There was certainly no added length to Stowe's season, and they had the snow to do so!


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## mbedle (Jul 22, 2019)

thebigo said:


> When did keystone and breckenridge close this year?



Breck was June 9th and the plan for next year is to open keystone a lot earlier to compete with a-basin.


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## SnowRock (Jul 22, 2019)

slatham said:


> This change was only due to the loss of A-Basin and the early/late skiing it provided. Vail realized that for the Colorado local they had to counter this, and Keystone early with its snowmaking, and Breck late with its elevation was the plan. I would not interpret this as a company-wide, national effort to offer early and/or late skiing. There was certainly no added length to Stowe's season, and they had the snow to do so!


But when did AIG push stowe into may? Since ive been heading there fairly regularly the past 15 years, they basically always close with 80% or more of the mountain open. It about people not snow

On that note, as someone living outside NYC with two annual family trips to Stowe that basically locked me into the epic the past few years, this gives me even more ways to lower my per day number… but do worry about what this will mean for crowds at all the VT mountains in play. Conversely… nice to Have Hunter for when I can manage a midweek day trip or even a few hours on a weekend. I  would normally buy a triple play for those trips so much prefer not having to spend that extra coin. 

Stowe hasn’t quite been the Armageddon predicted when bought by vail originally but was way more crowded early (time not season) versus years past IMO. I used to feel like the 7:30 am weekend open allowed you to cheat the system if you got up and got out. But this year (admittedly good snow year) the crowds definitely seemed to be there earlier…  even on what wouldn’t really be consider true powder days.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2019)

Tdizzle said:


> A few HUNDRED dollars more. I'm a local. I ride like twice a week. *Maybe take 1 or 2 overnight trips a year to Smuggs. I have a gang of friends who do the same.* I few HUNDRED dollars more hits hard.



If you take those 1 or 2 overnight trips to Stowe instead of Smuggs, you'd come out ahead financially now.  That's part of what I meant, it will change consumer behaviour, but most people with net save $$.



slatham said:


> *I would not interpret this as a company-wide, national effort to offer early and/or late skiing.* There was certainly no added length to Stowe's season, and they had the snow to do so!



Exactly.  Park City is another decent example, it didn't matter how many locals they pizzed off this year, Vail still closed Park City on the scheduled date with many feet of snow covering the trails.  Vail is ruthlessly efficient in the pursuit of profit, and they dont care about your feelings.  At all.  LOL


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## VTKilarney (Jul 22, 2019)

Unless Vail is insanely desperate to make a play for the Montreal market, it looks like they will not be interested in Jay Peak now.

Jay is going to be sold without Burke.  The receiver has already said this.  

Frankly, I think that this may be the death of Burke.  They simply can't compete with the other passes that are going to be out there.  And the locals/condo owners can't sustain the mountain.  The hotel is losing money as it is.


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## drjeff (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Exactly.  Park City is another decent example, it didn't matter how many locals they pizzed off this year, Vail still closed Park City on the scheduled date with many feet of snow covering the trails.  Vail is ruthlessly efficient in the pursuit of profit, and they dont care about your feelings.  At all.  LOL



Agree!

With respect to my Mount Snow home area, we always penciled in our families "set" ski season as the weekend before Thanksgiving through to the 1st or 2nd weekend of April (depending on when Easter fell that year), and occasionally get an extra weekend or 2 in either side of those dates depending on the weather.

Now, under Vail, my hunch is that we won't be thinking about home hill turns prior to the 3rd weekend in November or after the 2nd weekend in April, as an option anymore.  Part of me is OK with that (certainly helps with planning around the schedules of our household) and part of me will likely be a bit upset that I may end up loosing a couple potential weekends skiing at the home hill in the "fringe" seasons.

Time will tell with how Vail chooses to operate their newly expanded Eastern stable of resorts, especially with early and late season operations...


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## urungus (Jul 22, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Vail is changing that plan, starting with Breckenridge and keystone this year. It will be interesting to see how the change the opening / closing schedule for wildcat next year.



Also Mount Snow ... hope they will continue to take advantage of the new snowmaking system to open early in the season... but not sure now that Vail has taken over


----------



## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Mt Snow and Okemo being on the same pass is weird to think about, for some reason. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## drjeff (Jul 22, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Unless Vail is insanely desperate to make a play for the Montreal market, it looks like they will not be interested in Jay Peak now.
> 
> Jay is going to be sold without Burke.  The receiver has already said this.
> 
> Frankly, I think that this may be the death of Burke.  They simply can't compete with the other passes that are going to be out there.  And the locals/condo owners can't sustain the mountain.  The hotel is losing money as it is.



Unfortunately I get that feeling that Burke's best chances will be if a few alums of Burke Mtn Academy, many of whom have made a nice living for themselves on Wall Street after their BMA and college racing days, band together out of a sense of nostalgia and commitment to BMA (in particular these days as they REALLY have taken some major steps forward off of what was already one of the best ski academies in the country), so that their kids will have the chance to have the BMA experiences and connections that they did, and run it somewhat like a Mad River Glen style co-op.  Now if the hotel could be either excluded or shrunk in size to say serve as the dorm and classroom facilities for BMA, without significantly adding to the cost of any potential deal, then there's certainly a decent chance of something like that happening


----------



## SnowRock (Jul 22, 2019)

Both Snow and Okemo have been doing a good job at the early season game the past few years. Okemo for all its worts has  been a go to for me early of late. Was gravy last year with them on the epic.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 22, 2019)

The most likely scenario is that BMA runs the training hill at Burke and nothing else opens - at least to the public.  The hotel will be used as dorms and for visiting racers, but only a portion of the hotel will be used for those purposes.


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## drjeff (Jul 22, 2019)

urungus said:


> Also Mount Snow ... hope they will continue to take advantage of the new snowmaking system to open early in the season... but not sure now that Vail has taken over



As Vail is seemingly learning in the CO market, having an early and late season player in the market is important. Let's not forget that the potential Epic pass market that lives along the I-95 corridor from Boston down to DC is far greater than the Denver market, so I would imagine that they will have some plans for trying to compete especially in the early season with what IKON passholders get as long as Killington, Sunday River and even Loon are part of that pass.

Not sure exactly how much of a late season player Vail will choose to be in the East. Killington, Jay, Sugarbush and Sugarloaf all have seemed to do OK in that market, and not sure if Vail will choose to invest in 1 of their Eastern properties in a way to market and make enough snow to go a few weeks deeper into April and maybe the beginning of May....


----------



## mbedle (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you take those 1 or 2 overnight trips to Stowe instead of Smuggs, you'd come out ahead financially now.  That's part of what I meant, it will change consumer behaviour, but most people with net save $$.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.  Park City is another decent example, it didn't matter how many locals they pizzed off this year, Vail still closed Park City on the scheduled date with many feet of snow covering the trails.  Vail is ruthlessly efficient in the pursuit of profit, and they dont care about your feelings.  At all.  LOL



But there does seem to be a change in Vails attitude towards early and late season operations at some resorts. Who knows, maybe they will test the waters at some of their resorts outside of CO. 

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2019...tm_medium=wasabi&utm_content=recirc-more-site


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## mbedle (Jul 22, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> The most likely scenario is that BMA runs the training hill at Burke and nothing else opens - at least to the public.  The hotel will be used as dorms and for visiting racers, but only a portion of the hotel will be used for those purposes.



It has to sell to someone, it can't stay under a receivership forever. If the price goes low enough, someone will pick it up an attempt to make a run with it.


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## slatham (Jul 22, 2019)

I'd be more surprised if Mt Snow early season plans change vs. April close. I think there is more bang for the buck pushing for early opening than staying open as late as possible. That said April close is typically the first or second weekend of April, so at most the locals lose a weekend. IMHO.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 22, 2019)

mbedle said:


> It has to sell to someone, it can't stay under a receivership forever. If the price goes low enough, someone will pick it up an attempt to make a run with it.



Lots of businesses go unsold if they are money losing propositions.  There is no "right price" for something that loses money and has no hope of turning a profit.


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## Smellytele (Jul 22, 2019)

slatham said:


> I'd be more surprised if Mt Snow early season plans change vs. April close. I think there is more bang for the buck pushing for early opening than staying open as late as possible. That said April close is typically the first or second weekend of April, so at most the locals lose a weekend. IMHO.



Wildcat was Peaks later season offering


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## Smellytele (Jul 22, 2019)

Edd said:


> Epic offers a Military Pass which is crazy cheap. I’d previously thought it was for active and retirees only but it appears to be for veterans also, which I am. This post from Wildcat may be implying I could get a refund if I trade in the Peak Traveler for an Epic Military. If true, that would blow my mind.
> 
> View attachment 25375



active and retired 129. veteran 529


----------



## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Wildcat was Peaks later season offering



Yeah, it makes no sense to change that. One lift, few staff, and a good chunk of terrain weather permitting.


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## x10003q (Jul 22, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots of businesses go unsold if they are money losing propositions.  There is no "right price" for something that loses money and has no hope of turning a profit.



There is a price where Burke makes money - although it could be less than zero.......:blink:


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> active and retired 129. veteran 529



Yeah, saw that after posting. No refund for me but still a deal I won’t complain about. Mind not blown after all.


----------



## gregnye (Jul 22, 2019)

RIP Wildcat---May 2019.

Will Vail keep it the same anti-grooming/hardcore vibe?

Sad that the skiing industry is now one large company. If I were New Hampshire I'd force them to give up Wildcat. But then again I'm from Mass, and New Hampshire probably loves huge businesses taking over their state, screwing over locals.


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## Glenn (Jul 22, 2019)

Really interesting development! This ended up coming up in my Google news feed early this morning that made it a point to say Mt. Snow is the closest VT ski area to CT. 

#flatlander


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## catskillman (Jul 22, 2019)

FBGM said:


> None of my hate was irrational. It was all accurate and depicted actual happenings and concerns.
> 
> But yes, my hate to peak resorts was based on gross mismanagement of ski areas, operations, safety, funds and general management with heads up their asses and chips on their shoulders. This will now all change. It will take some time. But will change for the better.
> 
> I’m no Vail fan boy but you can’t argue that they do ski areas right. Good changes to come to bad ski areas is a positive thing.




Safety - which you have mentioned numerous times is no more important an issue than at Hunter, and it was ignored this season resulting in 4 deaths.  Everyone can't stop talking about what this means from Hunter !!!!


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## gladerider (Jul 22, 2019)

already committed to ikon for next season but will def switch to epic for the following for sure


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## boston_e (Jul 22, 2019)

gladerider said:


> already committed to ikon for next season but will def switch to epic for the following for sure



I wonder how many Northeast skiers will do that.  At least for the greater Boston based skier, I'd still think that Killington/Pico/Sunday River/Loon/bush/Loaf/Stratton is a more appealing option than Snow/Attitash/Wildcat/Stowe/Okemo/Sunapee/Crotchet....  maybe Sunapee / Crotchet gets the nod for day trips but other than that I think the Ikon collection is better.


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## slatham (Jul 22, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Wildcat was Peaks later season offering



And that too, keep with Wildcat late. Mt Snow early.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 22, 2019)

gregnye said:


> RIP Wildcat---May 2019.
> 
> Will Vail keep it the same anti-grooming/hardcore vibe?
> 
> Sad that the skiing industry is now one large company. If I were New Hampshire I'd force them to give up Wildcat. But then again I'm from Mass, and New Hampshire probably loves huge businesses taking over their state, screwing over locals.



No, but we love you coming up, buying half million dollar houses and spending money to help keep our taxes down. So keep it up!


----------



## Quietman (Jul 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, the people that literally only ski at 1 place ever will pay more, but realistically I have to imagine they are relatively few in number.



I ski the Crotch for 90% of the days I ski, and got screwed when Peaks came along and will now probably get screwed again.


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## boston_e (Jul 22, 2019)

Quietman said:


> I ski the Crotch for 90% of the days I ski, and got screwed when Peaks came along and will now probably get screwed again.



How much was a Crotchet only pass?


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## abc (Jul 22, 2019)

gladerider said:


> already committed to ikon for next season but will def switch to epic for the following for sure


I’m sure glad I haven’t bought anything!

But now there’s no more reason to contemplate. Epic Local it is. 

Hunter is perfectly day-trip-able for me. Snow an occasional stretch. Okemo an overnighter. Stowe one more season...


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## skimagic (Jul 22, 2019)

This deal can also affect the Connecticut Ski Council days. When Vail bought Okemo they did not partner with the ski council and no days were offered last season. I'm afraid this might happen to Mount Snow, as Mount Snow had a ton of days, plus the group discount.

Maybe more Bromley-Magic on the awareness days if this happens.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2019)

machski said:


> I disagree, I think Vail should have major antitrust concerns, especially in NH.  Vail now owns (not just partners with) Mount Snow and Okemo (so if you leave K out, they own almost 2/3 of the Southern VT market), Stowe and in NH Crotched, Sunapee, Attitash and Wildcat.  That could be trouble for them, though arguable still less than what ASC had when it was forced to divest Waterville, Cranmore and Sugarbush.  We'll see I guess.
> 
> You really cannot compare Vail to Alterra in the East, where ownership of resorts is concerned.  Yes, Ikon probably has more access in the East, but most of it is access only, not owned.  Alterra only owns Stratton, the rest of NE is partner resorts with limited access on the Ikon.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



ASC didn’t divest Sugarbush out of anti-trust concerns.  They got an unsolicited bid from Win and company at a time when they needed cash and their development plans were stuck.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2019)

mgalluzz said:


> Agreed, but Attitash did just comment on their Instagram page that there will be an announcement coming about the triple this week.  Having said that, they'll probably announce "investing $X million in these resorts" and then add an on mountain restaurant.



After what we saw, the “big” announcement will likely be new chair pads for this coming season. :lol:


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2019)

Quietman said:


> I ski the Crotch for 90% of the days I ski, and got screwed when Peaks came along and will now probably get screwed again.



I’m pretty sure that Peaks was the company that rebuilt Crotched.  Are you talking about more than 30 years ago?


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## Quietman (Jul 22, 2019)

boston_e said:


> How much was a Crotchet only pass?




Last year of Crotched only passes before peaks went with the Peaks only pass was $349(i believe). Then early bird went to $458 1st year after Peaks only , then $529 after that.


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## Quietman (Jul 22, 2019)

You are correct, but Crotched was Peak's 1st eastern acquisition in the East in 2003, so there was a  Crotched only pass until 2013(+/-).  Then everyone was forced to the Peak's pass and I protested to management that Crotched was a local area and needed a separate pass, to no avail.  Now, I am no longer in the minority, as it seems that many "local" areas will be at the new $699 rate. I wish that Vail would consider a local pass for all of the smaller hills.  Just my $.02


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## ss20 (Jul 22, 2019)

skimagic said:


> This deal can also affect the Connecticut Ski Council days. When Vail bought Okemo they did not partner with the ski council and no days were offered last season. I'm afraid this might happen to Mount Snow, as Mount Snow had a ton of days, plus the group discount.
> 
> Maybe more Bromley-Magic on the awareness days if this happens.



This was the first thing I thought of when I heard this.  Kinda a "niche" thing but yeah...CT ski council had Mount Snow as its biggest partner with the most awareness days of any mountain (often $50-$60 walk-up ticket rates even weekends) and CT ski council members got the Mount Snow group rate every day (another awesome deal).  Okemo was also a major part of the ski council but have withdrawn from every program since Vail takeover.  Not too sure what is going to happen to the ski council now unfortunately...thats two big hits within a few years that were the "core" market for CT recreational skiers.


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## ss20 (Jul 22, 2019)

It's really sinking in to me how much this positively sucks as a Mount Snow daytripper who would get 5-10 days a year there.  Often I could get a ticket for $40-$60 through PSIA, ski club, or just buying the online rate.  Goodbye to all that!!!  And they were soooo pumped to be a part of the early season game this season and said they'd be committed to doing it year-after-year in the future...almost a definite "no" to that now as well.  As much as I love Killington, driving 2.75 hours to Mount Snow to ski 1,600ft top-to-bottom is much better than 3.25 hours to K to do the gondola-hike-500ft ski-hike out with the early season North Ridge operation.  


It's definitely a "new game" for resort operations in a lot of ways.  
1. Southern VT is "locked-in" by corporate ski corporations and $100+ lift tickets (even online) at Stratton, Mount Snow, and Okemo.  Can Bromely and Magic steal some business away???
2. If Vail terminates Mount Snow's early season plan and Wildcat's late season plan does this open up the early/late game to a new player?
3. Who is Alterra going to pick up next to compete with Vail??


Very hard to believe 2 seasons ago I skied 15 days at Killington/Pico, 4 days at Mount Snow, 4 days at Sugarbush, 4 days at Stratton, 2 days at Magic, and 4 days at Okemo.  Corporate ski industry has made me "commit" to one mountain or "chain" and I say f*** that.  I'll get 20+ days at Killington/Pico and around 5 days at Sugarbush and Magic.  I sure miss the variety.  Before all this BS I'd pay $50-$60 just to "switch things up" for a daytrip or weekend but I'm not paying $100 simply to add variety.


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## mbedle (Jul 23, 2019)

ss20 said:


> It's really sinking in to me how much this positively sucks as a Mount Snow daytripper who would get 5-10 days a year there.  Often I could get a ticket for $40-$60 through PSIA, ski club, or just buying the online rate.  Goodbye to all that!!!  And they were soooo pumped to be a part of the early season game this season and said they'd be committed to doing it year-after-year in the future...almost a definite "no" to that now as well.  As much as I love Killington, driving 2.75 hours to Mount Snow to ski 1,600ft top-to-bottom is much better than 3.25 hours to K to do the gondola-hike-500ft ski-hike out with the early season North Ridge operation.
> 
> 
> It's definitely a "new game" for resort operations in a lot of ways.
> ...



Do you think that you might be able to ski 15 days between Mount Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Wildcat, Attitash, Stowe, Crotched and Hunter? Seems like a lot of variety at only $46 per day. Even if you only ski 10 days at Mount Snow and Okemo, that still only going to cost you $70 per day.


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## ScottySkis (Jul 23, 2019)

Scott skis is buying every mountain in USA and I going to put it on Mary Jane pass negotiations to buy me&#55356;&#57279;&#55356;&#57282; - . "It looked like me some time to realize" the ScottySkis Thank heavens we founds on conquering the ski resort industry." AZ members are breathing a sigh of relief as the everything rand narrowly avoided the oversight. e Machine will play live concert at every hills I own.


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## abc (Jul 23, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Very hard to believe 2 seasons ago I skied 15 days at Killington/Pico, 4 days at Mount Snow, 4 days at Sugarbush, 4 days at Stratton, 2 days at Magic, and 4 days at Okemo.  Corporate ski industry has made me "commit" to one mountain or "chain" and I say f*** that.  I'll get 20+ days at Killington/Pico and around 5 days at Sugarbush and Magic.  I sure miss the variety.  Before all this BS I'd pay $50-$60 just to "switch things up" for a daytrip or weekend but I'm not paying $100 simply to add variety.


If you skied more than 10 days, you can simply buy the Ikon pass and end up with the same cost per day. (if you ski more days, even lower per day)

To get variety, you switch pass each year. 

In fact, if you buy an Epic pass now and buy 20/21 Ikon in March of 2020, you get to ski mountains of BOTH pass in next March/April/May. Repeat every 2 years. (you do miss K/Stratton/Sigarbush for Dec/Jan/Feb, but I can live with that)


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## slatham (Jul 23, 2019)

I suspect there will be a lot of year to year switching between passes for all but those who live on mountain. Big factor will be trips West as that will dictate which pass makes the most sense (assuming to a Epic/Ikon mountain). And if they keep the buy in March, ski rest of season, it makes tons of sense to flip each year.


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## fbrissette (Jul 23, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Unless Vail is insanely desperate to make a play for the Montreal market, it looks like they will not be interested in Jay Peak now.



If Alterra buys Jay Peak, it will essentially own the Ottawa-Montreal market with its Tremblant-Jay Peak combo.  




VTKilarney said:


> Frankly, I think that this may be the death of Burke.



Agreed.   Burke is a great mountain, but it's just stuck in nowhere land.  No really good reason to drive there, because there is something equivalent (or better) closer to where almost everybody lives.


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## slatham (Jul 23, 2019)

fbrissette said:


> If Alterra buys Jay Peak, it will essentially own the Ottawa-Montreal market with its Tremblant-Jay Peak combo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't underestimate the holiday (and maybe even most Saturday's) crowds at Epic/Ikon mountains and the desire of many skiers to avoid those crowds. I'd take an uncrowded Burke over a packed *fill-in-the-blank* any day.


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## gladerider (Jul 23, 2019)

boston_e said:


> I wonder how many Northeast skiers will do that.  At least for the greater Boston based skier, I'd still think that Killington/Pico/Sunday River/Loon/bush/Loaf/Stratton is a more appealing option than Snow/Attitash/Wildcat/Stowe/Okemo/Sunapee/Crotchet....  maybe Sunapee / Crotchet gets the nod for day trips but other than that I think the Ikon collection is better.



agree ikon is better for the boston metro folks, but for the NYC metro people epic just became very attractive


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## abc (Jul 23, 2019)

fbrissette said:


> If Alterra buys Jay Peak, it will essentially own the Ottawa-Montreal market with its Tremblant-Jay Peak combo.


Don't forget Blue. Yes, they would have gotten the Montreal market wrapped and sealed. 

I've been wondering why they haven't. It maybe the price Jay asked for is unrealistic?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 23, 2019)

Quietman said:


> You are correct, but Crotched was Peak's 1st eastern acquisition in the East in 2003, so there was a  Crotched only pass until 2013(+/-).  Then everyone was forced to the Peak's pass and I protested to management that Crotched was a local area and needed a separate pass, to no avail.  Now, I am no longer in the minority, as it seems that many "local" areas will be at the new $699 rate. I wish that Vail would consider a local pass for all of the smaller hills.  Just my $.02



Got it.  That is a good reason to speak up.


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## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

gladerider said:


> agree ikon is better for the boston metro folks, but for the NYC metro people epic just became very attractive



I guess it depends on your perspective. Are there a lot more resorts close to NYC on Epic now? Sure. But are they resorts I personally want to visit? Not really. Not sure what I would do if I was still a day-tripper and random long weekend a couple times a year skier. Maybe the NY3 pass would be my choice (along with a Sugarbush quad pack and/or a K spring pass maybe).


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## tnt1234 (Jul 23, 2019)

Bottom line for me, while this theoretically makes the Epic make sense with the addition of a Pokes and Catskills mountain, I still won't do it.  I don't ski as much as I'd like to, so I feel like every day counts to much to feel locked in to specific mountains.  Want to go where I think the best day awaits.

Only exception will be if we plan trip out west, like last year.  Then the Epic is a no brainer because I usually ski 3-4 days at Stowe every year anyway.

But I wonder if anyone is talking about an 'Independents Pass'.  Or 'Independence Pass!'  Some kind of counter balance to Ikon/Epic.  Like Magic, Platty, maybe the NY State mtns, Sugarbush, MRG, etc... marketing a shared pass or discount card.....


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## Newpylong (Jul 23, 2019)

Magic, Platty, Whaleback, Bolton, etc already on Freedom Pass.

I think the shockwaves are already still too strong to see any new multi area passes this year.


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## tnt1234 (Jul 23, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Magic, Platty, Whaleback, Bolton, etc already on Freedom Pass.
> 
> I think the shockwaves are already still too strong to see any new multi area passes this year.



I didn't realize that.  I thought the freedom pass was more NH product.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2019)

slatham said:


> Don't underestimate the holiday (and maybe even most Saturday's) crowds at Epic/Ikon mountains and the desire of many skiers to avoid those crowds. I'd take an uncrowded Burke over a packed *fill-in-the-blank* any day.


I fall in that camp. I think when the snow is decent, Burke is the best place in VT to ski on Saturdays and Holidays.   Though I haven't skied Bromley and it's been years since I have skied Magic.  Pico would be second to Burke for me of VT places I have recent busy weekend experience. 

Burke really isn't a bad commute from Boston.  Hopefully someone figures out a way to make it work.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Magic, Platty, Whaleback, Bolton, etc already on Freedom Pass.
> 
> I think the shockwaves are already still too strong to see any new multi area passes this year.



The only "problem" with the Freedom pass is that you still need to buy a pass to one of the mountains and make that your primary resort (and then you only get 3 tickets to each of the others). From NYC metro, Platty is probably the closest. And a Platty pass isn't exactly cheap.

To me Freedom is a great benefit for people that already have one of the participating areas as their home resort. But that's about it.

I agree that you most likely won't see any new multi-area passes this year. Maybe Ikon could pick up a new partner or two, but even that is probably just wishful thinking.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 23, 2019)

Quietman said:


> * I wish that Vail would consider a local pass for all of the smaller hills.*  Just my $.02



Not happening; that runs counter to their business strategy.



ss20 said:


> Can Bromely and Magic* steal some business away?*??



Definitely. I'm not buying one of these gigantor passes, so all it does it make me likely to ski Plattekill, Magic, Smuggs, and to a lesser extent Jay Peak even more than I already do, as opposed to paying $150 for single day tickets. The question is, however, do these people gained replace the business they'll lose now to further increased EPIC sales.



fbrissette said:


> *If Alterra buys Jay Peak, it will essentially own the Ottawa-Montreal market* with its Tremblant-Jay Peak combo.



I've already penciled-in Alterra as the future owner of Jay Peak, and Jay Peak being "IKONic" will make me sad.  Not as sad as Smuggler's Notch being "EPIC" mind you, but still pretty sad.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 23, 2019)

So does Vail still keep an eye on Wachusett for an acquisition?


----------



## ThinkSnow (Jul 23, 2019)

Wachusett ski area is leased on state owned property.  Even without that, it is highly doubtful the Crowleys would ever give up their cash cow and personal playground they love to strut around on.


----------



## mgalluzz (Jul 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not as sad as Smuggler's Notch being "EPIC" mind you, but still pretty sad.



What do you think the chances are the Stritzler actually sells to Vail?


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 23, 2019)

cdskier said:


> The only "problem" with the Freedom pass iso, Platty is probably the closest. And a Platty pass isn't exactly cheap.
> +500 on plattekill season pass price is high all Catskills resort and without snow making of them and much less open days for customers I never understood this
> 
> To me Freedom. Hiii
> ...


----------



## gladerider (Jul 23, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I guess it depends on your perspective. Are there a lot more resorts close to NYC on Epic now? Sure. But are they resorts I personally want to visit? Not really. Not sure what I would do if I was still a day-tripper and random long weekend a couple times a year skier. Maybe the NY3 pass would be my choice (along with a Sugarbush quad pack and/or a K spring pass maybe).



agreed. subjective.

Stratton, Killington, Sugarbush, Loon, 

vs

Stowe, Okemo, Mt. Snow, Mt. Sunapee, Wildcat, Crotched, Hunter, Attitash

these are the destinations i would hit. left out the ones that i probably won't hit. for me, addition of hunter and mt. snow is the biggest impact.
i maxed out on Stratton and Killington days last season. with hunter on the pass, i can do day trips. Stratton is not a day trip distance in my book.
i can see mixing up the two depending on which western trip i want to do. but i am leaning towards epic at this point.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 23, 2019)

mgalluzz said:


> What do you think the chances are the Stritzler actually sells to Vail?



Pretty high.   I have to imagine Vail would want it, and I cant imagine anyone else outbidding Vail for it.



ScottySkis said:


> +500 on plattekill season pass price is high all Catskills resort and without snow making of them and much less open days for customers I never understood this



Me three.  

Always seemed to me Platty would surpass in volume what they do in price if they lowered it.  The price makes no sense to me.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 23, 2019)

Already received an email from Vail informing me there is, _"New Resort Access near you for the 19/20 Season!"_.

I've never been an EPIC passholder, but I've skied Stowe, Park City, Vail, etc..., and they data-mine both your physical address & email address when you ski Vail Resorts properties.  So they use that info in their non-passholder database & pulled it by geography to send out these prospective EPIC emails today.


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## So Inclined (Jul 23, 2019)

I'm stuck with mixed feelings here. One the one hand, I've got a strong personal antipathy towards mega-corporations in general (but especially a couple mega-corporations gobbling up the entire ski industry), which isn't just ideological but also practical (I think I'd follow BenedictGomez's analysis of how this business story tends to play out.) On the other hand; being a seasonal employee of a Peaks mountain, I may have just traded my Peaks pass for an Epic, assuming everything's ceteris paribus. That feels like a nice win (I've barely skied out west, never in CO or CA) as long as I can find the time and $ to get out there. 

We shall see.


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## mbedle (Jul 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not happening; that runs counter to their business strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vail actually does offer a local Tahoe pass, which is cheaper than the epic local.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Me three.
> 
> Always seemed to me Platty would surpass in volume what they do in price if they lowered it.  The price makes no sense to me.



Yea, I love Platty but don't understand their pass price at all. I can get a NY3 pass (with holiday blackouts) for less than Platty. Although Platty does look like an absolute bargain compared to Windham. I just looked them up and they are over $1300! Now that is insane and has to put them near the top of the Northeast in general. You could pretty much buy an Epic Local and a NY3 pass (the holiday blackout version) and get to ski both Hunter and Belleayre (and a ton of other places) for about the same as Windham alone!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jul 23, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots of businesses go unsold if they are money losing propositions.  There is no "right price" for something that loses money and has no hope of turning a profit.



Who knows, maybe Vail ends up with it and NOT Jay... wouldn't that be funny.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 23, 2019)

ss20 said:


> As much as I love Killington, driving 2.75 hours to Mount Snow to ski 1,600ft top-to-bottom is much better than 3.25 hours to K to do the gondola-hike-500ft ski-hike out with the early season North Ridge operation.
> 
> I'll get 20+ days at Killington/Pico and around 5 days at Sugarbush and Magic.  I sure miss the variety.  Before all this BS I'd pay $50-$60 just to "switch things up" for a daytrip or weekend but I'm not paying $100 simply to add variety.



I agree to a point with early season. T 2 B at Snow early season is the best reason for me to go there now that K pampers the whole World Cup thing. They got lucky at K last season with the early snow that opened everything up in November, not counting on that this season. I am also 2:45 Snow and 3:15 to K and always go the extra :45 otherwise.
But fewer $50-60 tix makes skiing off pass stupid for me. 

Glad ORDA stayed out of this.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 23, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yea, I love Platty but don't understand their pass price at all. I can get a NY3 pass (with holiday blackouts) for less than Platty. Although Platty does look like an absolute bargain compared to Windham. I just looked them up and they are over $1300! Now that is insane and has to put them near the top of the Northeast in general. You could pretty much buy an Epic Local and a NY3 pass (the holiday blackout version) and get to ski both Hunter and Belleayre (and a ton of other places) for about the same as Windham alone!



K pass $1005 with taxes and fees.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 23, 2019)

JimG. said:


> K pass $1005 with taxes and fees.



And the crazy thing is, that if K has another season length like last years, there will be some K passholders who get their cost per day down to about $5!! 

The "perfect attendance" passholder crowd at K are some folks who pull of an IMPRESSIVE feat each year!


----------



## njdiver85 (Jul 23, 2019)

From my read of the FAQ's, the upgrade cost from Peak Pass to Epic pass would be the difference from what you paid for the Peak Pass at time of purchase, and the cost of Epic at closing of the transaction.  So if I purchased my Peak Explorer pass on the early buy date for $629, and Epic pass holds at current amount of $939, it's a $310 upgrade.  Is that correct?


----------



## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> From my read of the FAQ's, the upgrade cost from Peak Pass to Epic pass would be the difference from what you paid for the Peak Pass at time of purchase, and the cost of Epic at closing of the transaction.  So if I purchased my Peak Explorer pass on the early buy date for $629, and Epic pass holds at current amount of $939, it's a $310 upgrade.  Is that correct?



Sounds right from what I've read as well...


----------



## JimG. (Jul 23, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> From my read of the FAQ's, the upgrade cost from Peak Pass to Epic pass would be the difference from what you paid for the Peak Pass at time of purchase, and the cost of Epic at closing of the transaction.  So if I purchased my Peak Explorer pass on the early buy date for $629, and Epic pass holds at current amount of $939, it's a $310 upgrade.  Is that correct?



Sounds correct.

I was going to ask what the Peak early season rate was this year. Wonder if that price of $629 will hold in 20-21.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 23, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> From my read of the FAQ's, the upgrade cost from Peak Pass to Epic pass would be the difference from what you paid for the Peak Pass at time of purchase, and the cost of Epic at closing of the transaction.  So if I purchased my Peak Explorer pass on the early buy date for $629, and Epic pass holds at current amount of $939, it's a $310 upgrade.  Is that correct?


I got the impression from reading the FAQ's and I believe reading on Mount Snow's social media pages yesterday responses from their communications crew, that if you want to go from a Peak pass to an Epic Pass product, that you'd be credited the cost of what you paid for your Peak pass towards the cost of an Epic product, at the rate it would of been had you bought the Epic product on the day you bought your Peak product, not the day the deal to buy Peak closes

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I got the impression from reading the FAQ's and I believe reading on Mount Snow's social media pages yesterday responses from their communications crew, that if you want to go from a Peak pass to an Epic Pass product, that you'd be credited the cost of what you paid for your Peak pass towards the cost of an Epic product, at the rate it would of been had you bought the Epic product on the day you bought your Peak product, not the day the deal to buy Peak closes



That definitely seems to not be in line with how the FAQ is currently worded...
The way I read it, the price is based on the day you make the exchange (not when you bought your original pass or even when the deal closes)



> If I purchased my Peak Resorts season pass in Spring and I now want to upgrade to an
> Epic Pass, can I get the same Epic Pass price and benefits from May?
> You will receive current benefits and will be charged or refunded the difference in price based on the day of the exchange.


----------



## TheArchitect (Jul 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Pretty high.   I have to imagine Vail would want it, and I cant imagine anyone else outbidding Vail for it.



Regarding Smuggs...It's a no-brainer for Vail to buy it but here's a crazy thought.  What are the chances of Alterra playing the spoiler and buying it to keep Vail from creating the Stowe-Smuggs super resort?  Plus, Smuggs is accessed from the north so coming from the direction of the Montreal is easier.

i know, it's never going to happen but as an Ikon fan it's kinda fun to think about.


----------



## chuckstah (Jul 23, 2019)

cdskier said:


> That definitely seems to not be in line with how the FAQ is currently worded...
> The way I read it, the price is based on the day you make the exchange (not when you bought your original pass or even when the deal closes)


That's how I read it. Hope so anyway as I'd get a Local and a small refund if true as of today. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## medfordmike (Jul 23, 2019)

I also believe this is the case and this seems similar to what they did when they bought Sunapee.  Also the Epic Local usually gives you almost unlimited use of the New England Epic mountains minus Stowe.


----------



## Tin (Jul 23, 2019)

Rumor is MRG and Bush will be joining the Freedom Pass with Magic, Bolton, Whale, Platty, etc.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 23, 2019)

Tangent here...I hear it time and time again on this site...why would Vail buy Smuggs??  The mountain needs massive amounts of cash for lifts, snowmaking, and modern lodging.  A Smuggs-Stowe connection would be impossible to permit with the pond that's up there, the fact that there'd be major tree cutting, and local opposition as that's prime sidecountry access (or so I hear).  

I just don't see ANY desire for Vail to put in that kind of work.  Why essentially re-build an Eastern destination 4+ hours from any major city when you can get people to buy Epic passes, hop on a plane, and spend the money at Vail-owned properties out west.  Vail's East Coast strategy is purely a funnel to get people out into Vail Village, Beaver Creek, and Park City...and make investors happy seeing that Vail owns xx% of market share.  At least that's how I see it but I am 100% an armchair ski company president.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Tangent here...I hear it time and time again on this site...why would Vail buy Smuggs??  The mountain needs massive amounts of cash for lifts, snowmaking, and modern lodging.  A Smuggs-Stowe connection would be impossible to permit with the pond that's up there, the fact that there'd be major tree cutting, and local opposition as that's prime sidecountry access (or so I hear).
> .



The short answer is folks look at topagraphical maps and assume an easy interconnect creating the largest ski area in the East because of how close Spruce and Sterling peaks are from each other. 

I don't ever see anything beyond the old interconnect happening.  It's all state park land up there.  Vail would have to absolutely grease the hell out of VT pols to make it happen.  The chance of getting lift or major trail connection is so minimal.   No way I see the State approving anything that takes away from Sterling pond as it currently exists.  

Hope we never see it.  Keep Stowe, Stowe and keep Smuggs, Smuggs.  Love em both for the different experiences they provide. No need to blend them.  Feel the same way about K / Pico.  


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## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

Tin said:


> Rumor is MRG and Bush will be joining the Freedom Pass with Magic, Bolton, Whale, Platty, etc.



That would be extremely beneficial to me...

The only "problem" I see with MRG and Bush both joining is that all of a sudden you would have a lot of Bush passholders that would then have free days at a mountain right next door. That's a lot of potential people suddenly going to MRG. As a Bush passholder, I can guarantee that I would try to use all of my MRG days for sure. It would be stupid not to with how close the two are...


----------



## JimG. (Jul 23, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Feel the same way about K / Pico.
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Me too.


----------



## catskillman (Jul 23, 2019)

ScottySkis said:


> Scott skis is buying every mountain in USA and I going to put it on Mary Jane pass negotiations to buy me���� - . "It looked like me some time to realize" the ScottySkis Thank heavens we founds on conquering the ski resort industry." AZ members are breathing a sigh of relief as the everything rand narrowly avoided the oversight. e Machine will play live concert at every hills I own.




I will buy stock in ScottySkis when you go public.  And I would like a position on your BOD


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 23, 2019)

Those who think interconnecting Stowe & Smuggs would be impossible, do not understand how State of Vermont "works".  

And frankly, that's kind of moot anyway as a giant lift isn't needed.  You could run 20 minute snow cat rides through the notch which would be considered an amazing & unique winter tourist experience & confer a marketing advantage of the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi.    

Hell, you could run a 300 foot Magic Carpet at Stowe, with a single drive system in a_ "completely removable, environmentally-friendly"_ manner to get folks from Stowe to Smuggs.  Admittedly, you couldn't do a Magic Carpet in reverse as Smuggs to Stowe is too uphill, but who cares?  I've done that trek 100 times and if you're intermediate or better it's no big deal.  None of this is insurmountable.  

And if you got clearance for a small surface lift, you can avoid both Sterling Pond & The Long Trail with about a 3,000 foot T-bar with virtually no environmental impact (unless you're an eco-extremist nutjob).


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Me three.
> 
> Always seemed to me Platty would surpass in volume what they do in price if they lowered it.  The price makes no sense to me.



Pretty fair Liftopia discount on Platty as I recall this past year anyway .


----------



## Sirbannedalot (Jul 23, 2019)

Where is this bush/mrg joining the freedom pass coming from?


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Those who think interconnecting Stowe & Smuggs would be impossible, do not understand how State of Vermont "works".
> 
> And frankly, that's kind of moot anyway as a giant lift isn't needed.  You could run 20 minute snow cat rides through the notch which would be considered an amazing & unique winter tourist experience & confer a marketing advantage of the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi.
> 
> ...



You could absolutely run your removable Disneyland ride in reverse.  That whole interconnect trail from the old big pig over to Sterling was flat as a pancake 90% of the way.  Maybe a 100' drop in from the Spruce side vs a 50' drop in from Sterling.  The quarter mile in the middle is almost completely flat as you skate across to pick your spots to drop into the back/Birthday bowls. Done it from both directions at least a hundred times.

Maybe you are right and they could pull a permit for cat transit in-between,  but you'd need dozens of cats to market that as an effective and marketable interconnect.  Transit snowcat vehicles max out at what? 15 skiers per cabin?  You often gripe about the low capacity of the Jay Tram.  Think about how much lower capacity that mode of transport is over a likely 40 minute ride experience. That's likely what it would be given load, unload turn around time.   You'd need dozens of Cats running continuously to create an experience that the vast majority of people wouldn't bitch about. Think about how you hardly ever ride the Tram at Jay and extrapolate that reason onto a cat ride through the notch killing your ski day you paid $100+ for.  Those cats cost $100k plus plus a piece conservatively.  You'd need dozens of them to produce a transfer capacity even half of the Jay Tram.

As for your comment about not understanding how the state of VT works?  I dunno BG. I lived there 13 years, vacationed there all my life and have called 10 other states home.  VT is easily the most restrictive of any state I've ever lived regarding the type of commerce you believe is so easy to make happen.  

I'm pretty confident in my understanding of the climate up there.  No Vail removable Disneyland lift or Sleigh ride in at least five years.  Care to make a wager?  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Jul 23, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Me too.



Ditto.  Unfortunately I never knew Pico as an independent resort from Killington, but I know that it was a decent place in its own right before ASC.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Jul 23, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Ditto.  Unfortunately I never knew Pico as an independent resort from Killington, but I know that it was a decent place in its own right before ASC.



There was a point where I thought the K/Pico Interconnect would be cool. I'm firmly in the "leave them separate forever" camp now though.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 24, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Those who think interconnecting Stowe & Smuggs would be impossible, do not understand how State of Vermont "works".
> 
> And frankly, that's kind of moot anyway as a giant lift isn't needed.  You could run 20 minute snow cat rides through the notch which would be considered an amazing & unique winter tourist experience & confer a marketing advantage of the biggest ski resort east of the Mississippi.
> 
> ...



Can you run a t-bar up and down hills? That would be odd...


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 24, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Ditto.  Unfortunately I never knew Pico as an independent resort from Killington, but I know that it was a decent place in its own right before ASC.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



It would have continued it's own place - right on the Nelsap web page, if not for ASC.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Jul 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe you are right and they could pull a permit for cat transit in-between,  but you'd need dozens of cats to market that as an effective and marketable interconnect.  Transit snowcat vehicles max out at what? 15 skiers per cabin?  You often gripe about the low capacity of the Jay Tram.  Think about how much lower capacity that mode of transport is over a likely 40 minute ride experience. That's likely what it would be given load, unload turn around time.   You'd need dozens of Cats running continuously to create an experience that the vast majority of people wouldn't bitch about. Think about how you hardly ever ride the Tram at Jay and extrapolate that reason onto a cat ride through the notch killing your ski day you paid $100+ for.  Those cats cost $100k plus plus a piece conservatively.  You'd need dozens of them to produce a transfer capacity even half of the Jay Tram.
> [/URL]



 Right, or you could do something reasonable like the Italians do. Tow ‘em to the top of the notch and let ‘ em slide down the other side..... The tourons will eat that shit right up.


 Not every problem takes gobs of money to solve.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2019)

I could see the horse transfer getting approval before the carpet or snowcat options.  That would be very "Vermont" and hard for environmentalists to block. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> As for your comment about not understanding how the state of VT works?  I dunno BG. I lived there 13 years, vacationed there all my life and have called 10 other states home.  VT is easily the most restrictive of any state I've ever lived regarding the type of commerce you believe is so easy to make happen.


If you know Vermont well, you know that Act 250 hasn't stopped development in the slightest.  It just makes getting the permits much more expensive and time consuming.  Just look at the train wrecks known as Taft Corners and Shelburne Road.  And look at all the development at ski areas since Act 250 was implemented in 1970.  

I am sure that Vail could figure something out as long as it has a low environmental impact.  But it would cost millions of dollars and several years worth of appeals just to get the permit.  The question is whether or not Vail thinks that this investment is worth it.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Jul 24, 2019)

Sirbannedalot said:


> Where is this bush/mrg joining the freedom pass coming from?


  Yes, where?


----------



## drjeff (Jul 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I could see the horse transfer getting approval before the carpet or snowcat options.  That would be very "Vermont" and hard for environmentalists to block.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



If cow farts are apparently bad for the environment, could horse farts be much better? :roll::roll::wink:

Plus, there's probably a Bicknell's Thrush nest or 2 somewhere within 87.4 miles of there, thus making it an issue for "Team Tree hugger" I'm sure :wink:


----------



## drjeff (Jul 24, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Yes, where?



A friend of a friend, who heard it from a friend who heard it from someone at a bar who heard it from someone at a brewery they were at before the bar, who heard it from someone who knows someone who heard it from someone who once knew someone who had a cousin three times removed who worked at Mad River or Sugarbush (they can't remember which one) back in the early 70's.... :wink:


----------



## skiur (Jul 24, 2019)

drjeff said:


> If cow farts are apparently bad for the environment, could horse farts be much better? :roll::roll::wink:
> 
> Plus, there's probably a Bicknell's Thrush nest or 2 somewhere within 87.4 miles of there, thus making it an issue for "Team Tree hugger" I'm sure :wink:




Well they could just run the gondola on horse farts like Killington does on cow farts.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 24, 2019)

why not tunnel?  What more of a grandiose Idea than to make the largest ski Resort in the East by connecting it through a tunnel :lol::lol::lol:


(I've put zero thoughts into logistics)


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## ThinkSnow (Jul 24, 2019)

drjeff said:


> A friend of a friend, who heard it from a friend who heard it from someone at a bar who heard it from someone at a brewery they were at before the bar, who heard it from someone who knows someone who heard it from someone who once knew someone who had a cousin three times removed who worked at Mad River or Sugarbush (they can't remember which one) back in the early 70's.... :wink:


  Well, OK then.


----------



## EPB (Jul 24, 2019)

I know that we've been through this debate before, but why is there a prevailing view here that the Stowe-Smuggs connection is on sacred ground? It probably wouldn't be an eyesore from the valley floor, and there should be ways for a motivated Vail to work a solution around the pond. 

The lift infrastructure could probably be handled with a connector (of whenever kind) and two high speed lifts: one in that lower village area to replace the two side by side doubles, and one on Sterling. Madonna doesn't have the downhill capacity to handle more traffic anyway if the top (although perhaps Madonna II could handle higher capacity). Lodge space and parking would need help. 

This is Vail though, they spent $50 million or so to connect the Canyons to PC, build a new lodge and upgrade a couple lifts near the interconnect. If motivated, Vail could probably buy and upgrade Smuggs for that, or less. The real question seems to be how badly they want it/how necessary it would be to enhance the guest experience.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> why not tunnel?


I actually had that thought.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 24, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Can you run a t-bar up and down hills? That would be odd...



A handle tow would work perfectly for that. That’s it, a simple handle tow that probably would cost around 150k to buy and install and poof, you have the biggest skiing in the east.


----------



## machski (Jul 24, 2019)

Does the Long Trail cross what would be the Sterling-Spruce connection?  If so, that would also add to fire to keeping that away.  Granted that far North the trail is only the Long and not part of the AT as well, but recall ASC had to propose and move the AT so it would not cross ski trails and lifts to please the AMC. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> *You could absolutely run your removable Disneyland ride in reverse.  That whole interconnect trail from the old big pig over to Sterling was flat as a pancake 90% of the way. *



On the way to the Birthday Bowls, up by the fence, it gets reasonably steep.  Even I'm wrong on that & you're right, in the Smuggs to Stowe direction it would probably be among the longest Magic Carpet rides in the world, and the winter maintenance would be a nightmare.  But as I said, it's not even necessary.



mbedle said:


> Can you run a t-bar up and down hills? That would be odd...



You wouldnt have to.  Just run it up to to the point where you can ski down.  And a surface T-bars can be removable "winter only" structure as well.  I'll say it again, people who think this "problem" is more difficult than sending a man to the moon havent really thought it through.



Bosco DaSkia said:


> Right, or you could do something reasonable like the Italians do. *Tow ‘em to the top of the notch and let ‘ em slide down the other side..... The tourons will eat that shit right up.* *Not every problem takes gobs of money to solve. *
> 
> View attachment 25376



Or this.  I think EVERYONE would eat that up.  Hell, I'd love to do that.  Another unique marketing advantage conferred.


----------



## RichT (Jul 24, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I got the impression from reading the FAQ's and I believe reading on Mount Snow's social media pages yesterday responses from their communications crew, that if you want to go from a Peak pass to an Epic Pass product, that you'd be credited the cost of what you paid for your Peak pass towards the cost of an Epic product, at the rate it would of been had you bought the Epic product on the day you bought your Peak product, not the day the deal to buy Peak closes
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app




What about the other way? Peaks pass to Epic Military pass? I'd get r a refund!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 24, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> *A handle tow would work perfectly for that. That’s it, a simple handle tow* that probably would cost around 150k to buy and* install and poof, you have the biggest skiing in the east.*



And it's quickly & easily removable.



machski said:


> *Does the Long Trail cross what would be the Sterling-Spruce connection? *



With a removable seasonal connection, I dont see how that would be a complaint.  Even if it is, you could end it just before that and people could ski across the Long Trail.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 24, 2019)

I wish some non-Vail company would just buy Smuggs already so we can end this Stowe/Smuggs connection debate already :razz:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> *I wish some non-Vail company would just buy Smuggs already *so we can end this Stowe/Smuggs connection debate already :razz:



That would be nice.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2019)

Pretty much the entire length of the ski route from Spruce to Sterling is the Long Trail.  

Not seeing a seasonal removable lift being allowed on the Long Trail.  So, you'd have the move the LT.   But where?  I don't see where you put a lift or ski terrain in that doesn't cross the Long Trail somewhere.  

The Long Trail, Sterling Pond, state forest land with everyone's favorite bird habitat; all of these would be major hurdles to establish an interconnect at the summit.  A tunnel is an interesting idea mentioned.  That would probably be easier to get approved.  

The horse idea is amusing, but might work and get approved easier than snowcat transit.  

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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

With modern boring technology a tunnel might actually make financial sense.

Of course you would need a snowmaking system designed for a tunnel, which is a completely separate problem.


----------



## Bosco DaSkia (Jul 24, 2019)

no snowmaking necessary......


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## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

In 2006 the Snowbird's 600 foot tunnel only cost $1.4 million.  That's not bad at all - and it doesn't look like they used modern boring technology which may be cheaper.


----------



## WWF-VT (Jul 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I wish some non-Vail company would just buy Smuggs already so we can end this Stowe/Smuggs connection debate already :razz:



A lift served Stowe - Smuggs connection is never gonna happen.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 24, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> With modern boring technology a tunnel might actually make financial sense.
> 
> Of course you would need a snowmaking system designed for a tunnel, which is a completely separate problem.



That's actually not that big of a deal providing you have $, and if we're talking about boring a tunnel like this, you probably do


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## xlr8r (Jul 24, 2019)

The problem I see with having a Smuggs Stowe connection is the contingency planning needed if either the Sterling or Sensation lifts breakdown/close for wind in the middle of the day stranding hundreds possibly thousands of people at the wrong resort with no way to get back.  Having to then shuttle everyone back via bus would take hours as the drive between the two resorts is about an hour long.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 24, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> In 2006 the Snowbird's 600 foot tunnel only cost $1.4 million.  That's not bad at all - and it doesn't look like they used modern boring technology which may be cheaper.



Boring a tunnel underneath a lake is a risky proposition.  Proposing such a project in Vermont would be close to tomfoolery.


----------



## abc (Jul 24, 2019)

Lake? What lake?


----------



## slatham (Jul 24, 2019)

abc said:


> Lake? What lake?



Sterling POND, so yes not a lake but same issue.

Not sure what people are smoking here to get so deep into fantasy land. Personally I'd wait at least until Vail (or someone) owned BOTH resorts.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 24, 2019)

abc said:


> Lake? What lake?



Sterling Pond.  Not a lake.  My bad.  

But I am looking at the map and I guess you could stay just west of it.  

It is also state land.  So good luck there.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 24, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Boring a tunnel underneath a lake is a risky proposition.  Proposing such a project in Vermont would be close to tomfoolery.



A) You don't have to go under it.
B) There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of tunnels that go under bodies of water.  It's not a problem, especially for something as insignificant as this pond.


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## EPB (Jul 24, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> A) You don't have to go under it.
> B) There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of tunnels that go under bodies of water.  It's not a problem, especially for something as insignificant as this pond.


Insignificant!!!! How DARE you?!?!?!

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## JimG. (Jul 24, 2019)

If they approve the horse transfer count me in for an Epic pass next season.


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## ss20 (Jul 24, 2019)

So far for the Vail executive board room, us at Alpinezone Ski Development Planning have proposed the various alternatives of...a tunnel, a magic carpet, a t-bar, a tunnel UNDER a pond, a dozen snowcats, and horses towing skiers...

This forum cracks me up :lol:


----------



## ss20 (Jul 24, 2019)

JimG. said:


> If they approve the horse transfer count me in for an Epic pass next season.



No I want horses to pull me through a tunnel with a glass roof so I can see the bottom of Sterling Pond.


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## abc (Jul 24, 2019)

Count me in as another who lost the plot on the obsession regarding the Stowe-smugg link. 

The last thing Vail need is a large interconnected northeast destination mountain. Stowe is no Park City!

Vail wants Stowe skiers go to Vail. Not the (non-local) skiers going to Stowe. To Vail, Stowe/Okemo/Hunter are all just feeder hills. 

Moreover, Vail owns Vail village, in the middle of nowhere with no competition. Stowe on the other hand, has local businesses not owned by Vail. Vail makes tons more profit in Vail than they ever will in Stowe.


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## Newpylong (Jul 25, 2019)

ss20 said:


> So far for the Vail executive board room, us at Alpinezone Ski Development Planning have proposed the various alternatives of...a tunnel, a magic carpet, a t-bar, a tunnel UNDER a pond, a dozen snowcats, and horses towing skiers...
> 
> This forum cracks me up :lol:



All to connect to a ski area they do not own, or want to own.


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## Glenn (Jul 25, 2019)

Anyways...back to Mt. Snow. Looks like the season passholders forum is gone; the domain is up for grabs. I suppose they could be moving it to a new location? That was a great way for folks to interact with management. Hope they keep it around.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 25, 2019)

Seems weird that they would axe it even before the sale has gone through...  Kind of weird but after the way they handled the spring season pass announcement's down here in PA, nothing would surprise me with those folks.


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## Edd (Jul 25, 2019)

Glenn said:


> Anyways...back to Mt. Snow. Looks like the season passholders forum is gone; the domain is up for grabs. I suppose they could be moving it to a new location? That was a great way for folks to interact with management. Hope they keep it around.



Interesting strategy to introduce yourself to your new customers. A bunch of people that really care about Mt Snow and you remove this method of interaction. I wonder if they announced this in any way.


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## slatham (Jul 25, 2019)

Resistance is futile. We will all be part of the collective soon enough.


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## drjeff (Jul 25, 2019)

Glenn said:


> Anyways...back to Mt. Snow. Looks like the season passholders forum is gone; the domain is up for grabs. I suppose they could be moving it to a new location? That was a great way for folks to interact with management. Hope they keep it around.





jimmywilson69 said:


> Seems weird that they would axe it even before the sale has gone through...  Kind of weird but after the way they handled the spring season pass announcement's down here in PA, nothing would surprise me with those folks.



They sent an e-mail out about this to members of the forum on Tuesday (or maybe it was just to members like myself, who responded to the page that popped up saying that my account had been blocked and to contact the admins if I felt this was wrongly done - I did contact the admins through the link that popped up).  

The official explanation they gave was 2 fold. First, they expected a large number of questions from members about the details of the merger, and 2nd, for full transparency, they wanted to only address and answer the questions via their public social media feeds to make sure that everyone can see the questions and answers.

Going forward, I will be interesting to see if the communications crew from Mount Snow are as active on AZ as they have been in the past, or if Vail policy changes that? Time will tell I guess


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## RichT (Jul 25, 2019)

I wish Hunter had a "season passholder" forum!!



Glenn said:


> Anyways...back to Mt. Snow. Looks like the season passholders forum is gone; the domain is up for grabs. I suppose they could be moving it to a new location? That was a great way for folks to interact with management. Hope they keep it around.


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Seems weird that *they would axe it even before the sale has gone through*... Kind of weird but after the way they handled the spring season pass announcement's down here in PA, nothing would surprise me with those folks.





Glenn said:


> Anyways...back to Mt. Snow. Looks like the season passholders forum is gone; *the domain is up for grabs*. I suppose they could be moving it to a new location? That was a great way for folks to interact with management. Hope they keep it around.


That says to me the management had wanted it axed all along, and use this as an excuse to have it permanently removed.


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## FBGM (Jul 25, 2019)

Over/Under on first round of employee cuts? And who goes first?

I guess we have to wait for this all to close. So that means the winter will probably hold steady. 

So spring time will be first round of marketing, payroll, purchasing. Then hopefully soon after some mountain operations people. Starting with that moron who botched that over budget lake project and hunter expansion that was drawn on a cocktail napkin.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 25, 2019)

If we're lucky maybe they'll axe you from this forum  :lol:


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## drjeff (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> That says to me the management had wanted it axed all along, and use this as an excuse to have it permanently removed.




That was fairly public knowledge the last few seasons, as typically from what I understood, the bulk of people who actively participated in the passholders forum, were actively participating in Mount Snow public social media feeds as well. The overlap of questions asked in the passholders forum verses the public forums was often very high, and often the only difference was that with any news they wanted to get out there, they'd post it in the passholders forum a few minutes or so before the public forums.

The reality is that short of seeing the specific names from the mountain who was answering the questions verses just a generic "mount snow" as the author in the public forums, there really wasn't any difference in the information communicated to the public. A few more specific technical questions might of been addressed in the passholders forums (such as snowmaking water pressures, why specific bathroom heaters were having issues, etc) but it's not like there was any "double super secret" type information being said in there by any means :wink:


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## VTKilarney (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> Vail wants Stowe skiers go to Vail.


Vail wants skiers to go from feeder hills close to urban centers to expensive hills where they will spend several days and lots of money on lodging and food.  I doubt they care if a New Yorker goes to Stowe or Vail for a week.


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## EPB (Jul 25, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Vail wants skiers to go from feeder hills close to urban centers to expensive hills where they will spend several days and lots of money on lodging and food.  I doubt they care if a New Yorker goes to Stowe or Vail for a week.


Agreed for the most part. Capturing more of the skier's spend is the name of the game. They'd probably get more out of a trip to Vail or Beaver Creek, but Stowe is plenty good - that's more of a side point, though. 

The feeder/resort dynamic is the key. Feeders widen the net and resort spend is the upsell - it doesn't necessarily break down on east/west lines. 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## slatham (Jul 25, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Vail wants skiers to go from feeder hills close to urban centers to expensive hills where they will spend several days and lots of money on lodging and food.  I doubt they care if a New Yorker goes to Stowe or Vail for a week.



Except Vail does not own any of the Spruce Village Lodging. They only own the Mountain.


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## EPB (Jul 25, 2019)

slatham said:


> Except Vail does not own any of the Spruce Village Lodging. They only own the Mountain.


They don't own a majority of the lodging at the base of their resorts...

 According to their 2018 annual report, just $25 million out of $618 million of reported EBITDA (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) came from lodging. RockResorts is their lodging arm of you're interested. Vail is a ski area operator first, not a real estate forward company like the Intrawest model.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> Vail wants skiers to go from feeder hills close to urban centers to expensive hills where they will spend several days and lots of money on lodging and food.  I doubt they care if a New Yorker goes to Stowe or Vail for a week.



+1.  If Vail just wanted people from NY and Boston to fly to Colorado for a week, there would be much cheaper ways to make that happen than buying Stowe and a bunch of other eastern ski areas.


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> +1.  If Vail just wanted people from NY and Boston to fly to Colorado for a week, there would be much cheaper ways to make that happen than buying Stowe and a bunch of other eastern ski areas.


Cheaper, yes. But as effective? No. 

I think many had missed how Vail operates and WHY they're successful. I'm surprise no one had bother to point it out given there're many here are entrepreneurs or management professionals.

For ANY BUSINESS, it's extremely desirable to have STEADY, RELIABLE and PREDICTABLE revenue income than wild swing and fluctuation of revenue. 

With predictable revenue, the business can plan ahead, take advantage of scale and any other economic opportunity they can find, instead of scrambling to react to the volatile ups and downs at the last minute. That's why almost all business offers some forms of "subscriber contract" where the customer pay up front to receive a discount over the on demand price on the day of service. Sure, they also get a tiny amount of interest if they put the "subscription fee" in a bank CD. But really, it's so they can plan and schedule to order supplies to get the best price they can find. Having a better idea of how much supply they need in advance is extremely valuable! That's a lot more saving than what they earn by banking the up front fee (or even the saving on the interest they would have needed to pay for a loan to order supply). 

In business, a bird in hand IS literally worth 2 or 3 in the wood! 

While running ski areas will never been a business of 100% steady income. The smoother the income stream, the better overall profitability. By offering attractive season pass prices, Vail is doing exactly that, guaranteeing a predictable, reliable steady income stream. 

Almost all ski areas sell season pass to get some working capitals to prepare for the start of the season. But Vail management runs the company more like a corporation. Then it's more than just working capital the season pass sale provides. Vail is trying to remove as much of the unknown of random income into known season pass sale. 

Buying up northeast mountains, they turned existing season pass sales into Epic pass sales. The customer still gets to ski the same mountain. So no big deal. (those who balk at the price increase can go ski somewhere else, those are typically NOT the kind that will get on a plane for a week in Vail anyway). So even for the local mountains Vail bought, it's likely to yield better profitability too. What's not to like?


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

But, having defended Vail's business practice of low-season-pass with high-daily-rate, I don't quite understand why they don't offer local only season passes. Those are people who don't want to ski elsewhere anyway. Forcing them to pay a higher price season pass just creates ill will (or drive them away) Sure, those may not be the most desirable customer. Still, there's little downside to keep them around.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2019)

Glenn said:


> * I suppose they could be moving it to a new location? That was a great way for folks to interact with management. **Hope they keep it around.*



Hah!   That's funny.  

Vail does not do, _"interacting with management"_, Vail does, _"you will bend to my will"._



drjeff said:


> * I will be interesting to see if the communications crew from Mount Snow are as active on AZ as they have been in the past, or if Vail policy changes that? **Time will tell I guess*



No need to wait, that's over too.  There will be unified messaging, and it's control & dissemination is centralized.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2019)

ss20 said:


> So far for the Vail executive board room, us at Alpinezone Ski Development Planning have proposed the various alternatives of...a tunnel, a magic carpet, a t-bar, a tunnel UNDER a pond, a dozen snowcats, and horses towing skiers...
> 
> This forum cracks me up :lol:



Yes.  We all can dream.  :lol:  That's what makes it interesting.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2019)

drjeff said:


> They sent an e-mail out about this to members of the forum on Tuesday (or maybe it was just to members like myself, who responded to the page that popped up saying that my account had been blocked and to contact the admins if I felt this was wrongly done - I did contact the admins through the link that popped up).
> 
> The official explanation they gave was 2 fold. First, they expected a large number of questions from members about the details of the merger, and 2nd, for full transparency, they wanted to only address and answer the questions via their public social media feeds to make sure that everyone can see the questions and answers.
> 
> Going forward, I will be interesting to see if the communications crew from Mount Snow are as active on AZ as they have been in the past, or if Vail policy changes that? Time will tell I guess



Yes, regrettably, as said, expect centralized communications from HQ in Broomfield, CO.  That's how they roll.  

For the NE, I think it is troubling to go from four relatively large resort conglomerates (Vail, Boyne, Peaks, and sort of Alterra) down to three (Vail, Boyne, sort of Alterra).  Anyone foresee Boyne selling out?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2019)

slatham said:


> Except Vail does not own any of the Spruce Village Lodging. They only own the Mountain.



Yep.  Exactly.  Vail would prefer that these folks ski at a Vail resort, stay at a Vail property, eat at Vail restaurants, and shop at Vail retail outlets.  That's what they plan and hope folks do.  That's their model.


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> [snip lots of valid points about the real reason Vail is making acquisitions in the east]



So it appears that you agree that Vail is not actually buying eastern mountains as "feeders hills" to get people to visit its western assets, after all.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> But, having defended Vail's business practice of low-season-pass with high-daily-rate, I don't quite understand why they don't offer local only season passes. Those are people who don't want to ski elsewhere anyway. Forcing them to pay a higher price season pass just creates ill will (or drive them away) Sure, those may not be the most desirable customer. Still, there's little downside to keep them around.



They do. It is called Epic Local.  Folks may not like it, but all of the local discounts, special deals, multiple pass options, etc. all disappear to the simplified Epic pass product--Local or Full Epic.  That's it.  Two choices.  

Additionally, a key part of their strategy is to have VERY LIMITED pass options to make things easy for consumers and easier for marketing and sales.  It's exactly like Costco--you only have two or three options for a product instead of like 20.  That's because if consumers get confused they are more likely to not purchase.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> So it appears that you agree that Vail is not actually buying eastern mountains as "feeders hills" for its western assets, after all.



It appears that they are expanding beyond western destination resorts and feeder hills to some eastern destinations.


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> It appears that they are expanding beyond western destination resorts and feeder hills to some eastern destinations.



Agreed.  The idea that Vail is investing this much money in destination resorts in the east because it could drive up traffic in its Western hotels and villages is silly. There is a ton of money to be made from eastern skiers who will never set foot out west (even with an epic pass), and Vail has finally come to realize that.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jul 25, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> They do. It is called Epic Local.  Folks may not like it, but all of the local discounts, special deals, multiple pass options, etc. all disappear to the simplified Epic pass product--Local or Full Epic.  That's it.  Two choices.
> 
> Additionally, a key part of their strategy is to have VERY LIMITED pass options to make things easy for consumers and easier for marketing and sales.  It's exactly like Costco--you only have two or three options for a product instead of like 20.  That's because if consumers get confused they are more likely to not purchase.



They do have local passes. There's a Kirkwood Pass, Wilmot Pass, Afton Alps Pass, Mt. Brighton Pass, Stevens Pass Pass, etc.


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> So it appears that you agree that Vail is not actually buying eastern mountains as "feeders hills" to get people to visit its western assets, after all.


Actually, no. The two are independent. 

Vail operates in a steady revenue model, which works in both destination resort and feeder hills. It still reaps the benefit of scale and predictability. 

Personally, I still believes Vail's real cash cow is ... Vail! But that doesn't mean they will operate the eastern mountain as a loss leader. They don't need to lose money in the east to drive traffic to the west. Not if they can help it. But if push comes to shove, they could as long as they come out ahead. That's the beauty of a large corp. They can cover the loss in a few isolated mountains. 

What I AM saying is Vail is unlikely to expand the eastern destination which may compete with their primary goal of driving skiers to the western destination mountains.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2019)

crystalmountainskier said:


> They do have local passes. There's a Kirkwood Pass, Wilmot Pass, Afton Alps Pass, Mt. Brighton Pass, Stevens Pass Pass, etc.



Maybe for some of the smaller places, but for example, I'm looking at Park City and it looks like for that resort it is just the Epic Local and Epic.  There is a youth pass.  

https://www.parkcitymountain.com/plan-your-trip/lift-access/passes.aspx

Similar with Stowe:

https://www.stowe.com/plan-your-trip/lift-access/passes.aspx


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## EPB (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, no. The two are independent.
> 
> Vail operates in a steady revenue model, which works in both destination resort and feeder hills. It still reaps the benefit of scale and predictability.
> 
> ...


Vail now owns three major resorts in the east: Stowe, Okemo and Mount Snow. It's safe to say they're in the business of running major Eastern resorts. Maybe they buy something else, maybe not. I think Smuggs would make obvious sense - perhaps another feeder or northerly resort to take a load off their existing footprint could be in play, too.

You've made many valid points here, but we should add that this acquisition serves two key proposes for Vail: 1) it's a land grab across many new metro areas and 2) it enhances the value of the Epic pass to skiers from metro NYC, Boston and everywhere in-between. Both factors will enable Vail to sell many more Epic passes. Would they like users to go west and fill their relatively limited and non-core supply of lodging? Of course, but the big driver of profit is getting people to buy the passes and spend money on-mountain wherever that mountain may be. 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> What I AM saying is Vail is unlikely to expand the eastern destination which may compete with their primary goal of driving skiers to the western destination mountains.



If Vail's goal were to corner the market on eastern skiers vacationing out west, there are much less expensive and much more efficient ways to do that than buying large destination ski resorts in the east.  Vail's clear intent is to enter the eastern ski market, not to move eastern skiers west.  The idea that Vail will avoid investing in its eastern ski resorts because it might keep skiers from visiting its western resorts is equally absurd.  People go out west because the want to ski western mountains and snow, not because Stowe lacks amenities.  Improvements to its eastern assets will increase the money generated by those assets, which is exactly the reason why Vail is purchasing them in the first place - not because it believes it can get a few more Mt. Snow regulars to go to Vail rather than Jackson or Aspen on their annual trips out west.


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## EPB (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> If Vail's goal were to corner the market on eastern skiers vacationing out west, there are much less expensive and much more efficient ways to do that than buying large destination ski resorts in the east.  Vail's clear intent is to enter the eastern ski market, not to move eastern skiers west.  The idea that Vail will avoid investing in its eastern ski resorts because it might keep skiers from visiting its western resorts is equally absurd.  People go out west because the want to ski western mountains and snow, not because Stowe lacks amenities.  Improvements to its eastern assets will increase the money generated by those assets, which is exactly the reason why Vail is purchasing them in the first place - not because it believes it can get a few more Mt. Snow regulars to go to Vail rather than Jackson or Aspen on their annual trips out west.


Make no mistake, Vail definitely thinks it can (and it certainly will) capture more Mount Snow traffic on their trips out west. Are some people going to want to go to Jackson no matter what? Sure. That doesn't mean Vail won't capture a serious about of traffic from any former (or new) Peak resort skier that frequents Hunter and resorts to the north and east.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Make no mistake, Vail definitely thinks it can (and it certainly will) capture more Mount Snow traffic on their trips out west. Are some people going to want to go to Jackson no matter what? Sure. That doesn't mean Vail won't capture a serious about of traffic from any former (or new) Peak resort skier that frequents Hunter and resorts to the north and east.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sure.  But the amount of money spent by eastern skiers going out west pales in comparison to the amount of money spent by eastern skiers skiing in the east.  ABC's suggestion that Vail is buying eastern ski resorts to increase its shares of that much smaller pot of money is silly.  If there wasn't significant money to be made from eastern skiers skiing eastern ski resorts, Vail would not be buying them.  The cost of doing so would simply not be justified by any reasonably expectable increase in Vail's share of the much smaller pot of eastern ski money being spent out west.


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> If Vail's goal were to corner the market on eastern skiers vacationing out west, there are much less expensive and much more efficient ways to do that than buying large destination ski resorts in the east.


Give some examples of “less expensive AND much more efficient” ways please?

You seems hellbent to believe eastern skiers going to Vail’s western resorts is mutually exclusive to them skiing in the east? Further more, you’re still implying Vail’s eastern purchase price are all losses!


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> Give some examples of “less expensive AND much more efficient” ways please?



Advertising.  Targeted discounts.  Partnerships with eastern ski resorts.  There is no reason to buy a large eastern ski resort and assume the costs of operating one if your primary purpose is to increase your share of the money being spent by eastern skiers on western ski trips.  You do that by getting eastern skiers to come out west as cheaply as possible.

You buy and operate a large eastern ski resort because you want to make money off people who are skiing in the east, not the west.  You view Vail as a regional corporation that wants to increase its regional dominance by investing outside of its region in the hope that it will bring more people into its region.  If that is what Vail intends, it has bigger problems than even BG has identified. 



abc said:


> You seems hellbent to believe eastern skiers going to Vail’s western resorts is mutually exclusive to them skiing in the east? Further more, you’re still implying Vail’s eastern purchase price are all losses!



On the contrary.  I am saying that you do not purchase major eastern ski resorts because you think that's the best way to get more people to come to your western ski resorts.  You buy major eastern ski resorts because you think it's profitable to own and operate major eastern ski resorts.  You seem to think that this will only be profitable for Vail if it causes more eastern skiers to visit its western resorts.  I think any uptick in visits to Vail's western offerings by eastern skiers was not a major factor in its decision to acquire Peaks.  I think its decision to acquire Peaks was motivated primarily from a desire to become a national corporation with significant money making operations in the east.  I think your condescending attitude toward eastern skiing is interfering with your ability to think rationally about the reasons Vail would purchase an eastern ski resort.  The idea that Vail purchased these major eastern ski resorts as "feeder hills" that it will be happy to operate at a loss because it expects to double or triple or quadruple its profits at its western resorts with these acquisitions is the part I find ludicrous.  There is a huge market here for skiers who rarely, if ever, go out west.  Vail wants a part of the money they are spending in the east.  If a few more of them go out west, all the better.  But the success of this acquisition will not be measured by how many more eastern skiers visit Vail or some other western destination.


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

> The idea that Vail purchased these major eastern ski resorts as "feeder hills" that it will be happy to operate at a loss because it expects to double or triple or quadruple its profits at its western resorts with these acquisitions is the part I find ludicrous.


 
What’s ludicrous is you putting word nobody said into other people’s mouth and starting to argue against it!

*Please quote any post that suggests Vail expect to operate eastern mountains at a loss? *I certainly didn’t post anything remotely to that effect. Nor do I recall reading any post suggesting that either. 



> I think your condescending attitude toward eastern skiing is interfering with your ability to think rationally about the reasons Vail would purchase an eastern ski resort.



You’re the one who’s irrational by assigning opinions others didn’t express and then attack them!


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## Not Sure (Jul 25, 2019)

Maybe a bit of diversification? How often do East and West coast winters sinc? Usually one is good and the other bad so maybe a little risk spreading?


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## Domeskier (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> What’s ludicrous is you putting word nobody said into other people’s mouth and starting to argue against it!




Let's see.  Here's where you claim that Stowe, et al., are just feeder hills intended to drive traffic to Vail:



abc said:


> Vail wants Stowe skiers go to Vail. Not the (non-local) skiers going to Stowe. To Vail, Stowe/Okemo/Hunter are all just feeder hills.



And here's where you claim Vail would be fine running its eastern resorts at a loss:



abc said:


> They don't need to lose money in the east to drive traffic to the west. Not if they can help it. But if push comes to shove, they could as long as they come out ahead. That's the beauty of a large corp. They can cover the loss in a few isolated mountains.



Now let the back-tracking and bizarre use of random quotation marks begin.


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## abc (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> And here's where you claim Vail would be fine running its eastern resorts at a loss:
> 
> Now let the back-tracking and bizarre use of random quotation marks begin.


I seem to read there’s a word “*if*” in the post you quote.

But I’m not going to help you understand what that word means. It’s a word taught in grade school. 

Yeah, call me condescending. I regret to have even wasted my time arguing with such an uneducated mind.


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## cdskier (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> On the contrary.  I am saying that you do not purchase major eastern ski resorts because you think that's the best way to get more people to come to your western ski resorts.  You buy major eastern ski resorts because you think it's profitable to own and operate major eastern ski resorts.  You seem to think that this will only be profitable for Vail if it causes more eastern skiers to visit its western resorts.  I think any uptick in visits to Vail's western offerings by eastern skiers was not a major factor in its decision to acquire Peaks.  I think its decision to acquire Peaks was motivated primarily from a desire to become a national corporation with significant money making operations in the east.  I think your condescending attitude toward eastern skiing is interfering with your ability to think rationally about the reasons Vail would purchase an eastern ski resort.  The idea that Vail purchased these major eastern ski resorts as "feeder hills" that it will be happy to operate at a loss because it expects to double or triple or quadruple its profits at its western resorts with these acquisitions is the part I find ludicrous.  There is a huge market here for skiers who rarely, if ever, go out west.  Vail wants a part of the money they are spending in the east.  If a few more of them go out west, all the better.  But the success of this acquisition will not be measured by how many more eastern skiers visit Vail or some other western destination.



I think some people (not just you) are focusing a bit too much on the eastern resorts in the Peaks portfolio. While those are certainly nice and give Vail a probably pretty reliable income stream, don't overlook the mid-western and even smaller PA resorts near the DC area. Buying Peaks gives them access to skiers in numerous major metro areas. For Mt Snow/Hunter/Wildcat skiers here in the Northeast this may not be a big deal from a western perspective because we already have pretty decent sized mountains with pretty decent skiing. However the people skiing little hills in the mid-west now suddenly are getting access to much bigger resorts out west (and in the northeast) by virtue of becoming Epic. Those people (not the north eastern skiers) are the ones that are probably far more likely to suddenly want to plan trips to other Epic/Vail resorts. Don't think for a second that this wasn't a substantial factor in the Peaks acquisition.


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## EPB (Jul 25, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Sure.  But the amount of money spent by eastern skiers going out west pales in comparison to the amount of money spent by eastern skiers skiing in the east.  ABC's suggestion that Vail is buying eastern ski resorts to increase its shares of that much smaller pot of money is silly.  If there wasn't significant money to be made from eastern skiers skiing eastern ski resorts, Vail would not be buying them.  The cost of doing so would simply not be justified by any reasonably expectable increase in Vail's share of the much smaller pot of eastern ski money being spent out west.


Okay I think you need some basic corporate finance to understand this.

We saw Vail pay a hefty premium to the market share price to buy Peak. Why would this happen?

Vail thinks it can generate more profit in perpetuity out of Peak resorts under it's umbrella than the market thinks Peak could on its own. There are three reasons why this is the case: revenue synergies, cost synergies and better capitalization.

I'll go in reverse order. Peak had a very high and expensive debt burden. Right sizing it (and being under Vail) makes the cost of debt and likelihood of bankruptcy lower. Simple enough. Peak is worth more under Vail than as a standalone on this basis.

Cost synergies are savings that Vail can realize at Peak that Peak couldn't have achieved on its own. It should be simple to understand why this adds value. Vail said it will keep most employees for now, but I don't think many here doubt that Vail will centralize and downsize more of Peak's non customer facing workers and costs (think accountants, managers, etc.).

Revenue synergies refer to extra revenue Vail can generate at Peak's resorts. I'll stick to Mount Snow for simplicity. Getting current passholders to pay more is one way this happens. This means capturing more of their Western trips and maybe moving Mount Snow to the full epic pass one day if the data suggests it's a good idea. Another key way, as I mentioned, is getting more skiers to buy the Epic pass because it now works at all Peak resorts (e.g. family from CT that likes to take a week at Mount Snow and "out west" now buys an Epic pass). The later example isn't a simple eastern skiing vs western skiing equation. 

I say this all to illustrate how the corporate development people at Vail might look at the deal. Implicit in their value is today they continue to run the Peak resorts well AND they add substantial value to those resorts because of the quality of the portfolio of assets they now offer to eastern skiers. I'm frankly confused why you think that offering all a better product - east, west, feeder, resort included isn't a value add and driver of further pass sales for a variety of skier types across the east.

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## JimG. (Jul 25, 2019)

Ugh, this thread is getting depressing.


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## Zand (Jul 25, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Ugh, this thread is getting depressing.



It's sure making me glad I have Ikon. Sure Stowe is up there with Sugarbush and Sugarloaf, but after that Killington and Sunday River >>>>>> any other resort in the Vail eastern portfolio. And Wildcat is the only other one even close to those. Mt Snow, Okemo, Sunapee, Attitash, Hunter, etc will be even more of a zoo now. Like I've said before, if Alterra gets Jay, I'll send them a blank check for next years pass and they can take whatever amount of money they please.

Plus as a newly crafted SLC fan, my mind is already made up anyway.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 25, 2019)

To give folks a bit of perspective of some of the Vail resorts acquisition mindset, from a FB post on the elite skiing group a few days ago, I learned that Rob Katz, the CEO of Vail Resorts, has a podcast called Epic by Nature. The most recent episode, which was released about 10 days ago, was all about what Vail Resorts looks for with respect to mergers and acquisitions, and then what they do to integrate the new resort acquisitions into the Vail Resorts network.

Was an interesting and informative listen as I was driving up to my condo at Vail... err, Mount Snow [emoji6] , this evening.

Also if one wants to get some perspective about what the corporate leadership qualities and perspectives are, listen to the Epic by Nature podcast about pioneering women in the ski industry. Very good listen

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## ss20 (Jul 25, 2019)

abc said:


> But, having defended Vail's business practice of low-season-pass with high-daily-rate, I don't quite understand why they don't offer local only season passes. Those are people who don't want to ski elsewhere anyway. Forcing them to pay a higher price season pass just creates ill will (or drive them away) Sure, those may not be the most desirable customer. Still, there's little downside to keep them around.



Well if they own everything "going elsewhere" is tough to do.  See Summit County where they have Breck, Keystone, Vail, and Beaver Creek...what competition is there??  Copper...that's it (A-Basin and Loveland are not week-long ski destinations).  Now they have a stronghold on Southern Vermont with both Okemo and Mount Snow.  

And if you own property on one of these mountains you're not going to sell your $200k slopeside condo and buy at another mountain to save $300 on a season pass each year.


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## ScottySkis (Jul 25, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Ugh, this thread is getting depressing.


Yes it is
I tried to make it enjoy some when I posted few pages ago
 plattekill season pass price is high all Catskills resort and without snow making of them and much less open days for customers I never understood this 
I went to Vail my first trip out west. I much rather go 1 state to the west of Vail for many reasons


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> *Anyone foresee Boyne selling out?*



How much do the Kircher children enjoy the prestige & respect of being top management & the lifestyle-trappings that come with that?

Because that's for the life of me the only reason I see for them possibly not selling right now. 

 We are in he golden age of skiing M&A, and they will NEVER in their lifetime get a better opportunity to sell than right now. They have to know this. The obvious acquirer would be Alterra, which could lock Big Sky down forever rather than having a trial contract that may-or-may-not be renewed, as well as for Brighton, which they would immediately unlock huge value from by meshing it with Solitude.  



abc said:


> What I AM saying is *Vail is unlikely to expand the eastern destination which may compete with their primary goal of driving skiers to the western destination mountains.*



I disagree.  Once YoY comps become difficult I think Vail is likely to "expand" in all sorts of places many may view as unsuspected.  Internationally is my #1 bet, for reasons that are turbo cynical even by my well-known highly-cynical standards.


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## Newpylong (Jul 26, 2019)

I think the amoeba is done and I wouldn't be surprised at seeing a divestiture before another aquisition by Vail in the East.


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## Glenn (Jul 26, 2019)

drjeff said:


> They sent an e-mail out about this to members of the forum on Tuesday (or maybe it was just to members like myself, who responded to the page that popped up saying that my account had been blocked and to contact the admins if I felt this was wrongly done - I did contact the admins through the link that popped up).
> 
> The official explanation they gave was 2 fold. First, they expected a large number of questions from members about the details of the merger, and 2nd, for full transparency, they wanted to only address and answer the questions via their public social media feeds to make sure that everyone can see the questions and answers.
> 
> Going forward, I will be interesting to see if the communications crew from Mount Snow are as active on AZ as they have been in the past, or if Vail policy changes that? Time will tell I guess



RIP MtSnowNingOwitz 

I wonder if Vail would be interested in Maple Valley....


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

Glenn said:


> RIP MtSnowNingOwitz
> 
> I wonder if Vail would be interested in Maple Valley....


Or connecting to Haystack and the other side of Crotched... Why have we been obsessed with Smuggs when these other potential connections were right under our noses?

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## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Or connecting to Haystack and the other side of Crotched... *Why have we been obsessed with Smuggs when these other potential connections were right under our noses?*



No horse-drawn ski lifts or tunnel blasting = BORINGGGGGGGG


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

abc said:


> I seem to read there’s a word “*if*” in the post you quote.



And this is inconsistent with may claim that you think Vail would be fine losing money on its eastern resorts as long as it increased profits at its western resorts how, exactly?  I thought your problem was just poor reading comprehension and a misunderstanding of basic economics.  It turns out that it is the much more serious problem of lacking a fundamental grasp of the basic semantic and logical consequences of the words you use.  Until you remedy that, talking to you is like talking to a plant.  Completely pointless.



abc said:


> Yeah, call me condescending.



I called your attitude toward eastern skiing condescending.  I know reading comprehension is not you strong suit, but sheesh.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Okay I think you need some basic corporate finance to understand this.
> 
> [Snip a bunch of non-sequiturs]
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Um, thanks for the lesson, I guess.  I dispute nothing you just said.  What I dispute, one again, is abc's idiotic claim that the reason for the acquisition was to funnel more eastern skiers to Vail's western resort, in particular, to Vail's hotels and restaurants in Vail village.  If this acquisition only made sense to Vail because of some projections on how it would impact visits to its western holdings, then everyone should divest their stock in Vail immediately.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I think some people (not just you) are focusing a bit too much on the eastern resorts in the Peaks portfolio. While those are certainly nice and give Vail a probably pretty reliable income stream, don't overlook the mid-western and even smaller PA resorts near the DC area. Buying Peaks gives them access to skiers in numerous major metro areas. For Mt Snow/Hunter/Wildcat skiers here in the Northeast this may not be a big deal from a western perspective because we already have pretty decent sized mountains with pretty decent skiing. However the people skiing little hills in the mid-west now suddenly are getting access to much bigger resorts out west (and in the northeast) by virtue of becoming Epic. Those people (not the north eastern skiers) are the ones that are probably far more likely to suddenly want to plan trips to other Epic/Vail resorts. Don't think for a second that this wasn't a substantial factor in the Peaks acquisition.



Yes, actual feeder hills.  Not Stowe/Okemo/Mt. Snow. Vail is in the business of selling lift tickets and season passes at the resorts it owns and operates.  The fact that abc thinks the skiing is superior at Vail than at Stowe or any other major eastern resort in Vail's portfolio is irrelevant.  Vail wants people skiing at resorts that Vail owns.  Having a lot of resorts all around the world ensures that Vail skiers will likely ski at Vail resorts when they vacation.  These skiers may even change their customary plans and stay in Vail Village for a couple days every few years or so, where Vail can make some profits off its hotels and restaurants.  But to think that all of Vail's acquisitions are somehow intended to get people to come to Vail Village is the height of ignorance.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I disagree.  Once YoY comps become difficult I think Vail is likely to "expand" in all sorts of places many may view as unsuspected.  Internationally is my #1 bet, for reasons that are turbo cynical even by my well-known highly-cynical standards.



I am pretty sure that Vail already owns resorts in other countries.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I think the amoeba is done and I wouldn't be surprised at seeing a divestiture before another aquisition by Vail in the East.



Agreed.  I am interested to see what resort(s) they sell.  I read that Vail was not at all happy with the condition of the lifts at Crested Butte and had to knock down the price paid.


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## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I am pretty sure that Vail already owns resorts in other countries.



Yes, 3 in Australia (2 of which they just purchased earlier this year). I wouldn't at all be surprised to see additional acquisitions in other countries though.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jul 26, 2019)

ScottySkis said:


> I went to Vail my first trip out west. I much rather go 1 state to the west of Vail for many reasons



Because Colorado doesn't have any other good areas right?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yes, 3 in Australia (2 of which they just purchased earlier this year). I wouldn't at all be surprised to see additional acquisitions in other countries though.



Yeah, I thought it was Australia.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2019)

And for those wondering what is going on with Attitash's Summit Triple:



> "We will resume work on the repairs immediately after Labor Day when the summer crowds disperse," Lowell said Monday. "It would be unsafe to have work going on now while we have attractions and families wandering near the work areas. The rebuilt pieces will be delivered the last week of August so we can begin to get organized with heavy equipment to place the pieces back into the motor room and raise the bull wheel.
> 
> "Everything is going as planned, and I am confident the summit triple will be ready for the start of the upcoming season. We have also done a near-complete rebuild of the Flying Yankee this spring. We are installing a new drive in the Abenaki lift and have done extensive work on the Flying Bear. Our lift maintenance staff have been working extremely hard this spring and summer and will continue to do whatever prudent to make our lifts reliable and safe for this season and seasons to come."



https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news...cle_b9f5c9c0-acb5-11e9-a347-3b3870d0c67e.html


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Um, thanks for the lesson, I guess.  I dispute nothing you just said.  What I dispute, one again, is abc's idiotic claim that the reason for the acquisition was to funnel more eastern skiers to Vail's western resort, in particular, to Vail's hotels and restaurants in Vail village.  If this acquisition only made sense to Vail because of some projections on how it would impact visits to its western holdings, then everyone should divest their stock in Vail immediately.


Okay I think he's more right than you are on this one. The way I'd think about it is in terms of regions. The Midwestern thesis has already played out in MN, greater Chicago and MI. 
 Vail thinks that it can get people from greater NYC and all points north and east to spend more money at Vail than they would have on Peak plus Vail products than they would have as separate companies. You can do this in a few ways:
1) Get new people to buy Epic passes because they can cover admissions for eastern and western trips (e.g. NYC family skis Mount Snow over Xmas and Colorado over spring break)
2) Get more people to buy Epic passes because they like the broader eastern options (e.g. Boston area skier now buys from Vail because they love that they can ski the MWV and Stowe on the same pass)
3) Raise prices on premium pass options (by limiting days to Snow, or blacking out vacation weeks), food and beverage, gift shops, etc.

I don't know which is the biggest bucket, but if you told me #1 was the biggest bucket, I wouldn't be surprised. If you don't get this, you're probably not the right demographic for bucket 1 and you probably don't rub elbows with that type of crowd. That doesn't mean that demographic doesn't exist and represents a key merger rationale for Vail. 

#2 is limited by real estate constraints - need a place to stay at two different eastern resorts. It's possible work Airbnb, but probably won't move the needle too much.

#3 is either enhanced by the western option (people want to go to Mount Snow on Xmas and west over spring break and need a more expensive Epic pass to make it work), or it corrects weak pricing by Peak (i.e most people would have spent more for a Mount Snow pass than Peak was charging). 

What I hear you saying is that #2 is the big reason why Vail bought Peak. I think it helps on the margin, but misses the bigger picture/opportunity set.

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## Edd (Jul 26, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> And for those wondering what is going on with Attitash's Summit Triple:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news...cle_b9f5c9c0-acb5-11e9-a347-3b3870d0c67e.html



Never going away.


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## Smellytele (Jul 26, 2019)

Edd said:


> Never going away.



As someone said the triple at attitash is possessed and will not allow anyone to replace it or it has comprising pictures of someone.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> The way I'd think about it is in terms of regions. The Midwestern thesis has already played out in MN, greater Chicago and MI.
> Vail thinks that it can get people from greater NYC and all points north and east to spend more money at Vail than they would have on Peak plus Vail products than they would have as separate companies.



The eastern market is a lot different than the Midwest, though.  If Midwestern skiers get bored with their feeder hills, there's not much they can do but jump on a plane.  Encouraging those skiers to jump on a plane to a Vail resort generates a nice return on investment for the relatively small acquisitions they made out there.  On the east coast, skiers who get bored with their feeder hills in NY/NJ/CT/PA can drive a few hours north and ski legitimate terrain in VT/NH/ME and upstate NY without the hassle of flying west.  If you want to capture a significant number of those skiers, you need provide access to major resorts in the east.  Most of the eastern skiers I know who already spend a significant amount of time and money out west rarely ski the east anyway and certainly aren't buying season passes to eastern mountains.  Maybe the option of doing some warm-up runs at Hunter in advance of a trip out West will encourage them to get an Epic pass and lock themselves into a Vail-cation.  Who knows.  I just do not see how a $250+ million acquisition in the eastern US, replete with destination resorts like Stowe, is part of some myopic strategy to increase skier visits to Colorado (any more than their acquisitions in the PNW or British Columbia were).  I see this more as signal that Vail is shifting focus from being a major player in the western US to being a major player nationally and internationally.  The fact that the press release indicates that they have already earmarked $15 million for improvements at their eastern resorts over the next two years belies abc's claim that Vail will not invest in its eastern mountains for fear of competing with its western resorts.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> 1) Get new people to buy Epic passes because they can cover admissions for eastern and western trips (e.g. NYC family skis Mount Snow over Xmas and Colorado over spring break)
> 2) Get more people to buy Epic passes because they like the broader eastern options (e.g. Boston area skier now buys from Vail because they love that they can ski the MWV and Stowe on the same pass)
> 3) Raise prices on premium pass options (by limiting days to Snow, or blacking out vacation weeks), food and beverage, gift shops, etc.



I would just further note that none of these reasons (which are all legitimate) implies that Vail's primary intent was to "buy eastern resorts to get more people to spend money in Vail Village."  At the end of the day, as you correctly point out, Vail made these acquisitions to sell more epic passes, and it will make a lot more money on the sale of these passes and running its eastern holdings than it will ever make by getting more eastern skiers to stay at its Colorado hotels and eat in its Colorado restaurants.


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> The eastern market is a lot different than the Midwest, though.  If Midwestern skiers get bored with their feeder hills, there's not much they can do but jump on a plane.  Encouraging those skiers to jump on a plane to a Vail resort generates a nice return on investment for the relatively small acquisitions they made out there.  On the east coast, skiers who get bored with their feeder hills in NY/NJ/CT/PA can drive a few hours north and ski legitimate terrain in VT/NH/ME and upstate NY without the hassle of flying west.  If you want to capture a significant number of those skiers, you need provide access to major resorts in the east.  Most of the eastern skiers I know who already spend a significant amount of time and money out west rarely ski the east anyway and certainly aren't buying season passes to eastern mountains.  Maybe the option of doing some warm-up runs at Hunter in advance of a trip out West will encourage them to get an Epic pass and lock themselves into a Vail-cation.  Who knows.  I just do not see how a $250+ million acquisition in the eastern US, replete with destination resorts like Stowe, is part of some myopic strategy to increase skier visits to Colorado (any more than their acquisitions in the PNW or British Columbia were).  I see this more as signal that Vail is shifting focus from being a major player in the western US to being a major player nationally and internationally.  The fact that the press release indicates that they have already earmarked $15 million for improvements at their eastern resorts over the next two years belies abc's claim that Vail will not invest in its eastern mountains for fear of competing with its western resorts.


I hear you - I'd also count Stowe in the resort bucket along with Vail, PC, Whistler and the like. In some ways what you and I are saying is similar - resort/feeder is the delineation that matters. Not necessarily east/west (although that's mostly how it breaks down). 

Stowe is a hybrid because Stowe regulars are definitely more likely to go to Vail resorts for their trips out west, but there will surely be a Hunter/Crotched/Jack Frost contingent that will take their one big trip to Stowe. To a lesser extent, this could be true at Okemo, Snow or the MWV, but those are more weekend destinations for those who liveveast and north of NYC. 

I still think the driving force for your casual & wealthy skiers to the new Epic pass is an east and west resort option under one umbrella. There is just a massive amount of wealthy casual skiers up for grabs from NJ through suburban NH with the east-west value proposition. Remember, for those in parts of the NYC metro, it's easier (albeit more $$$) to get on a plane to PC than it is to drive to Stowe. 

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## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> The fact that the press release indicates that they have already earmarked $15 million for improvements at their eastern resorts over the next two years belies abc's claim that Vail will not invest in its eastern mountains for fear of competing with its western resorts.



$15M over 2 years split between 17 resorts is sort of weak in all honesty. Obviously it won’t be distributed equally, but still that number doesn’t impress me without any details on what they have in mind.


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> $15M over 2 years split between 17 resorts is sort of weak in all honesty. Obviously it won’t be distributed equally, but still that number doesn’t impress me without any details on what they have in mind.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I forgot to mention this, but it's true. I could identify $15 million of spending that Vail should seriously consider in the MWV alone.

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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I still think the driving force for your casual & wealthy skiers to the new Epic pass is an east and west resort option under one umbrella. There is just a massive amount of wealthy casual skiers up for grabs from NJ through suburban NH with the east-west value proposition. Remember, for those in parts of the NYC metro, it's easier (albeit more $$$) to get on a plane to PC than it is to drive to Stowe.



Yeah, I just wonder how many of these wealthy casual skiers would even care about eastern pass options.  If your primary focus is on skiing out west, then what matters most to you is what western resort you want to ski at, rather than what eastern mountains are offered on the same pass.  If you prefer Jackson or Aspen over Vail, you'll get an Ikon pass even if you'd prefer skiing Stowe over Killington or whatever the comparable Ikon offering is.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 26, 2019)

If Vail's motivation was ONLY to drive skiers to Vail, they would not offer the EPIC pass.  Each local hill they own would have its own pass that was good for that local hill and Vail only.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> $15M over 2 years split between 17 resorts is sort of weak in all honesty. Obviously it won’t be distributed equally, but still that number doesn’t impress me without any details on what they have in mind.



True.  I assume it will be funneled mainly to Stowe and the other top destination resorts.  But however you slice it, no amount of investment in Stowe or any other eastern resort is going to cause someone not to decide that a ski trip out west is not worth it.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> If Vail's motivation was ONLY to drive skiers to Vail, they would not offer the EPIC pass.  Each local hill they own would have its own pass that was good for that local hill and Vail only.




Well said.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> $15M over 2 years split between 17 resorts is sort of weak in all honesty. Obviously it won’t be distributed equally, but still that number doesn’t impress me without any details on what they have in mind.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



One thing that I have noticed is in the last two years or so Vail has reigned in its spending on improvements.  In 2015 when the finally got their hands on Park City they dumped a TON of money into that area.  Since then though they have only made some modest improvements.  And, as I mentioned with Crested Butte, even though there are a lot of older lifts that need replacing, Vail has opted for a less expensive fixed-grip lift instead of multiple high speed lifts.


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Yeah, I just wonder how many of these wealthy casual skiers would even care about eastern pass options.  If your primary focus is on skiing out west, then what matters most to you is what western resort you want to ski at, rather than what eastern mountains are offered on the same pass.  If you prefer Jackson or Aspen over Vail, you'll get an Ikon pass even if you'd prefer skiing Stowe over Killington or whatever the comparable Ikon offering is.



Understood - short guess is that the casual fan is likely to lack that level of conviction. Vail has big name resorts, and I think most people are fine to just pick one (unless their brother has a place at Jackson, for example). A week "out west" and maybe a week or a couple of weekends "in Vermont" is about as specific as you need to get. Only the full ikon gets you unlimited access to a US east coast resort (Stratton) while Vail now has many more options thanks to Peak. The simplicity and variety of Epic and Epic Local passes provide compelling value.

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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> One thing that I have noticed is in the last two years or so Vail has reigned in its spending on improvements.  In 2015 when the finally got their hands on Park City they dumped a TON of money into that area.  Since then though they have only made some modest improvements.  And, as I mentioned with Crested Butte, even though there are a lot of older lifts that need replacing, Vail has opted for a less expensive fixed-grip lift instead of multiple high speed lifts.


True, but remember they did the same at Whistler that they did at PC.

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## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> True.  I assume it will be funneled mainly to Stowe and the other top destination resorts.  But however you slice it, no amount of investment in Stowe or any other eastern resort is going to cause someone not to decide that a ski trip out west is not worth it.



Since the announcement was included in the press release on the peaks acquisition, I would expect none of that $15m to go to Stowe.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I am *pretty sure that Vail already owns resorts in other countries.*



Barely.  Their only ex-N.A. ski areas are in Australia.



cdskier said:


> *$15M over 2 years split between 17 resorts is sort of weak* in all honesty.



I'll take the OVER on that sum.  

That's a low-ball figure.  An estimate had to be thrown-out, so they go low-ball to placate Wall Street. 

*Expectations Management 101:* Dont spend > 1/4 of a Billion dollars on a very expensive acquisition & in that same press release say, _"Oh, by the way, we also plan to spend $50 Million more on badly needed upgrades too!"_


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Remember, *for those in parts of the NYC metro, it's easier (albeit more $$$) to get on a plane to PC than it is to drive to Stowe. *



Oh,_ HELLLLLLLLLL_ no! That's totally false.  

Were that the case, my azz would be skiing Utah far more than I ski Vermont. 

 Trust me, it is not easier dealing with airport transportation, airport security, delayed flights (which can screw up everything) or worse, and all logistics of travel once you arrive in Utah, than it is to simply get in my comfy SUV and drive 6.5 hours to Vermont.  

Not. Even.  Close.


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh,_ HELLLLLLLLLL_ no! That's totally false.
> 
> Were that the case, my azz would be skiing Utah far more than I ski Vermont.
> 
> ...


If I took a straw poll in my office, I think that would be the consensus. .5 hr to Newark, United flight to SLC. 45 mins to PC.... I'm used to driving in the mountains and don't mind the drive to NVT, but I'm not making this line up. Granted, I work with people who travel a decent bit and are used to it.

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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Since the announcement was included in the press release on the peaks acquisition, I would expect none of that $15m to go to Stowe.



Heh.  touché.


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## mbedle (Jul 26, 2019)

Maybe I am over simplifying this, but with pass prices (for the most part) the same at every Vail resort, how much more money are they going to get from someone skiing at Breckenridge for a week, compared to skiing at Mount Snow for a week? The only time I see that happening to any great extent is when someone travels to a Vail resort and stay at a Vail owned or operated hotel. That leaves a hell of a lot of western resorts that Vail only additional revenue stream is going to come from on mountai
n food services at restaurants/bars that Vail actually owns or operates, plus rentals and equipment sales (again, if Vail owns them). Places like Vail, Breckenridge, Beaver Creek have a lot of on mountain hotels, restaurants and bars that are not own or operated by Vail (think Beaver Run at the base of Peak 9 at Breck).


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Understood - short guess is that the casual fan is likely to lack that level of conviction. Vail has big name resorts, and I think most people are fine to just pick one (unless their brother has a place at Jackson, for example). A week "out west" and maybe a week or a couple of weekends "in Vermont" is about as specific as you need to get. Only the full ikon gets you unlimited access to a US east coast resort (Stratton) while Vail now has many more options thanks to Peak. The simplicity and variety of Epic and Epic Local passes provide compelling value.



Yes, I can definitely see people in this demographic buying an Epic pass instead some other offering for those reasons.


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## abc (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> If I took a straw poll in my office, I think that would be the consensus. .5 hr to Newark, United flight to SLC. 45 mins to PC.... I'm used to driving in the mountains and don't mind the drive to NVT, but I'm not making this line up. Granted, I work with people who travel a decent bit and are used to it.


+1

There're those who travel to far away places, by whatever means. They're not fazed by the logistic "hassle". 

Then, there're those who intensely dislike the lose of control: airport security, flight delays, putting their life in the hands of pilots... They'd rather fight the traffic, the snow and icy roads, idiots who drive too fast on the freeway...

I wish the flights will be on time. I wish the airport security is smooth. But would NOT wish to replace all that "hassle" with driving 5 hrs in the dark, never mind if there's a storm, TWICE!

Whether one is "easier" than the other, is as subjective as whether carving on hard pack is "more fun" than surfing the glades. We will never agree. But knowing there're others who have different preference is already a huge improvement.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Heh.  touché.




I don't believe that they ever made any announcement about any capital project planned  at Stowe.


----------



## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Maybe I am over simplifying this, but with pass prices (for the most part) the same at every Vail resort, how much more money are they going to get from someone skiing at Breckenridge for a week, compared to skiing at Mount Snow for a week? The only time I see that happening to any great extent is when someone travels to a Vail resort and stay at a Vail owned or operated hotel. That leaves a hell of a lot of western resorts that Vail only additional revenue stream is going to come from on mountai
> n food services at restaurants/bars that Vail actually owns or operates, plus rentals and equipment sales (again, if Vail owns them). Places like Vail, Breckenridge, Beaver Creek have a lot of on mountain hotels, restaurants and bars that are not own or operated by Vail (think Beaver Run at the base of Peak 9 at Breck).



I'm with you on this.  Vail's business model depends on people buying epic passes.  Where they use them is largely irrelevant apart from a few hotels and restaurants that make up a small portion of their revenue.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh,_ HELLLLLLLLLL_ no! That's totally false.
> 
> Were that the case, my azz would be skiing Utah far more than I ski Vermont.
> 
> ...



I’m with BG on this one. And I’m only 15 minutes from Newark.


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## Griswold (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I’m with BG on this one. And I’m only 15 minutes from Newark.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Same, and if you factor in traveling with a couple of young kids then it’s not even a discussion.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I’m with BG on this one. And I’m only 15 minutes from Newark.



I once flew from Newark to Boston to ski Wachusetts.  It was totally worth it.


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I once flew from Newark to Boston to ski Wachusetts.  It was totally worth it.


Nice one.... Shortest flight I ever took for a ski trip was 2 hrs from Minneapolis to Denver when I was an Epic pass holder and raced in an after work league at Afton Alps. Easy access to the Rockies was nice but not nearly enough to make up for everything else you give up loving out there.

In an unrelated note, I'm beginning to wonder which sample is bad, my office, or this place. 

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## Zand (Jul 26, 2019)

Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.


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## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

Zand said:


> Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.



How slow are you driving that it is taking over 5.5 hours to get from Newark to killington? From Newark I could be in sugarbush by 9:30.

Never mind the fact that most people don’t wake up at 4am and decide to plan a last minute ski trip...


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## Griswold (Jul 26, 2019)

Zand said:


> Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.



Again this is all assuming you don’t travel with kids.  I disagree though you could absolutely wake up in Newark at 4 and be at Killington at 930.  The only reason you could for Snowbird, if that’s even actually possible, is the time zone difference.  There’s no way you can ski Sunday at snowbird until 3 and get back home by 9 like you can at Killington.  


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## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

Griswold said:


> Again this is all assuming you don’t travel with kids.  I disagree though you could absolutely wake up in Newark at 4 and be at Killington at 930.  The only reason you could for Snowbird, if that’s even actually possible, is the time zone difference.  There’s no way you can ski Sunday at snowbird until 3 and get back home by 9 like you can at Killington.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I question whether you could even be at snowbird by 930 anyway. The only direct flight I see right now for a Saturday in January out of Newark leaves 830 am and arrives in Utah after 11am. Maybe it is too far out and something will be added, but southwest also just pulled out of Newark so options are a bit limited.


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## mbedle (Jul 26, 2019)

Zand said:


> Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.



Am I reading your post wrong> There is no way that one could wake up at 4AM and be at Snowbird at 9:30AM. A non-stop fight between Newark and Salt Lake City is 5.5 hours.


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## abc (Jul 26, 2019)

Griswold said:


> There’s no way you can ski Sunday at snowbird until 3 and get back home by 9 like you can at Killington.


Yes! You can do even BETTER than that! 

You can ski till 4 (or 5 at Alta). And you’ll be back by 9! LOL

I mean 9am Monday morning! 

Totally worth it. 

If you're trying to “duplicate” you routine, you’ll be disappointed. But if you can think out of the box, there’re LOTS of good opportunities left and right! But I no longer bother to convince others that it can be done. I just do it, with whoever open minded enough to join me. Let the doubters argue till the cows come home.



eastern powder baby said:


> I'm beginning to wonder which sample is bad, my office, or this place.


Neither “sample” is “bad”. You’re just trying to compare apples and oranges.


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## Killingtime (Jul 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh,_ HELLLLLLLLLL_ no! That's totally false.
> 
> Were that the case, my azz would be skiing Utah far more than I ski Vermont.
> 
> ...



Yeah gotta agree. Going to Killington from L.I. almost every Friday night in the winter isn't really that bad. Leave at 7:00pm and usually putting on the fireplace and opening a beer by midnight. When I go out west I block out almost a whole day for travel because from experience, s--t happens, and frequently. The whole Kennedy/LaGuardia nightmare can waste hours just getting there and getting through baggage check/security and waiting to board.


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## Domeskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> In an unrelated note, I'm beginning to wonder which sample is bad, my office, or this place.



If you have a house/condo out there where you can store your gear and work remotely when you miss the flight back, weekends in Utah for someone in NYC could be doable (and maybe preferable to driving to NVT).  If you have to lug your gear back and forth and herd a bunch of kids around, I think the returns start to diminish quickly.  There is no way I could do that every weekend from November to April they way folks here head up to NVT.  If you're a casual skier who's flying out once a month or so, it's probably worth it even without the real estate.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Jul 26, 2019)

Y'all are missing it. the basic business model is that of your average health club. Sell lots of passes to people who aren't going to use them. you don't sell an actual product, you sell the promise of an actual product priced higher than the average user would actually use. just cause you use your pass a lot doesn't mean the average skier does. They bank on that.


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## thebigo (Jul 26, 2019)

My family has four peak passes, we live about half way between crotched and wildcat. The girls do a seasonal program at the crotch, we ski wildcat when they dont have team. Last year we roughly split our 76 days between crotch, cat and k. We bought the k spring passes to cover april vacation week, during that week we rented a condo on mountain and during may I bought  countless beers at the u-bars. Next year we are planning to skip the k passes and instead go to Breckenridge for the week. I suspect my family is a perfect example of mtns  strategy, absorb that marginal dollar from skiing familes located near former skis properties.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 26, 2019)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> Y'all are missing it. the basic business model is that of your average health club. Sell lots of passes to people who aren't going to use them. you don't sell an actual product, you sell the promise of an actual product priced higher than the average user would actually use. just cause you use your pass a lot doesn't mean the average skier does. They bank on that.



Bingo.  And they want you to walk around your office bragging about how you have a pass to Vail (or Stowe now).


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## EPB (Jul 26, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> If you have a house/condo out there where you can store your gear and work remotely when you miss the flight back, weekends in Utah for someone in NYC could be doable (and maybe preferable to driving to NVT).  If you have to lug your gear back and forth and herd a bunch of kids around, I think the returns start to diminish quickly.  There is no way I could do that every weekend from November to April they way folks here head up to NVT.  If you're a casual skier who's flying out once a month or so, it's probably worth it even without the real estate.


After some more thought, you guys are missing that your average greater NYC area driver is absolutely abysmal at driving in the snow. Let's not forget how many don't want to drive all the way back from VT in a snow storm. I spent my first winter in NJ last year after living in snowier climates my whole life and could not believe how 3 inches of snow shuts the place down. It's not just the plowing capability alone - the average driver has no idea what they're doing in the snow.

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## cdskier (Jul 26, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> After some more thought, you guys are missing that your average greater NYC area driver is absolutely abysmal at driving in the snow. Let's not forget how many don't want to drive all the way back from VT in a snow storm. I spent my first winter in NJ last year after living in snowier climates my whole life and could not believe how 3 inches of snow shuts the place down. It's not just the plowing capability alone - the average driver has no idea what they're doing in the snow.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



I’m not sure the average NJ driver represents the type of person that goes to VT on a regular basis though. Yes, NJ drivers suck in the snow. Most have no idea what snow tires even are. People look at me like I have two heads when I say I switched my tires for the winter.


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## ss20 (Jul 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> $15M over 2 years split between 17 resorts is sort of weak in all honesty. Obviously it won’t be distributed equally, but still that number doesn’t impress me without any details on what they have in mind.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



My thoughts exactly.  $15m will buy 2 new detachable lifts.  Spread over 17 resorts that's chump change at each.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2019)

Zand said:


> *Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning* in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.



Let's say we ignore the fact that all the math in your post is completely bogus & totally doesn't work as several others have already pointed out, you would still be the loser getting *up* at *"4AM on a Saturday morning"* = PASS and NO thank you.



eastern powder baby said:


> I spent *my first winter in NJ last year after living in snowier climates my whole life and could not believe how 3 inches of snow shuts the place down. It's not just the plowing capability*



I will play David Copperfield magician and guarantee something, you live near the city.

I wont wait for you to confirm this, I know it's true.  So how did I pull off this magic trick?

Because once you get into the country in New Jersey, pretty much most people have snow tires on their SUV or 4WD pick-up (because everyone drives either an SUV or a 4WD pick-up), and *the winter roads in New Jersey are taken care of about 10,000% better than State of Vermont. *

 Which I have never understood.   Why is Vermont so terrible about taking care of snow on the roads, when you get snow on the roads so often?   Compare that to the giant 3 foot overnight blizzard here in Jersey a few years ago, when by 10am the next morning the entire highway was literally blacktop and easily driveable.  God only knows, I bitch & complain about almost everything the government does here in New Jersey, but the one thing I wont complain about is the quality of winter roads.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2019)

Answer: snow removal budget and the need to use it is a fraction as often in NJ as is in VT.  I'll also throw out that NJ has far more commerce to support on it's roads, so the demand for better service is higher. 

VT has far less money to spend per mile of road that needs attention than NJ.  .  Far fewer people, businesses and homes to tax to support the cost of snow removal.  

You should head up to Downeast Maine some time.  They basically only actively plow rte 1 during storms.  Every other state highway is basically left alone until the storm ends.  I remember driving rte 191 from Machias to Calais last winter in 10" of snow.  It's the most direct route between what are the two largest towns in that part of the state.  I went the entire 45 miles without seeing a single plow.   I was visiting the hospital in Calais.  They were transferring patients via helicopter to Bangor because rte 9, the main road from Calias over was impassable for ambulances due to no plowing. 

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## Newpylong (Jul 27, 2019)

VT uses reduced (ie none in many places) salt on their roads.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2019)

That too. And salt is much less effective at colder temps. 

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## cdskier (Jul 27, 2019)

This is where i disagree with BG. I think NJ does a terrible job at snow removal meanwhile I’ve never had any issues in VT on the roads I use. I wish I had the picture my dad sent me a year or two ago of how bad I78 was the day after a major storm here in NJ. Add in the fact that no one in NJ knows how to drive if even a flake falls and it is a disaster.


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## mister moose (Jul 27, 2019)

Adding to how VT treats their roads,
*Interstates:* plowed constantly but with greater interval than other states during snowstorms.  Less salt, including less pre-emptive salt before the storm.  Ice storms are particularly dangerous when the ice is the first part of the storm, I have seen where rain turns to freezing rain with zero treatment and black ice forms with multi car accidents.  Then if you slide off the road, you get a ticket for driving too fast for conditions.  Passing lane can have several inches on it.  *
State arterial roads:*  Almost as good as Interstates, might collect an inch between plowings. * 
State Routes* (Rte 100 Ludlow to Bridgewater) No plowing for hours, 8 inches can be on the road.  * 
Local town roads:*  Main roads vary, smaller residential roads very infrequent plowing to no plowing until after storm.


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## EPB (Jul 27, 2019)

Commerce is a fair point. NJ drivers out my way still seem to have more trouble than in greater Boston. It doesn't snow much here - it's an experience issue as much as anything.

Regarding downeast Maine, if the greater NYC winters were as harsh as downeast, two things would almost certainly be true:
1) more money would go to snow removal, etc. (100% agree) 
2) drivers would have much more experience driving in the snow and be more comfortable driving to and from VT in a storm.

I'm 30-35 miles from NYC. I'm not saying that when I go up 87 that people aren't almost exclusively adept and prepared to handle the elements. Rather, I'm saying the incremental skier that Vail wants to pick up from the merger are not necessarily as comfortable as posters here are. Many might take a flight with a delay over a drive back from Stowe in a storm.

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## thetrailboss (Jul 27, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I once flew from Newark to Boston to ski Wachusetts.  It was totally worth it.



:lol:


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2019)

cdskier said:


> This is where i disagree with BG. *I think NJ does a terrible job at snow removal meanwhile I’ve never had any issues in VT **on the roads I use*.



I live in a very wealthy part of the state, so if money is the issue as DHS suggests, that might be why the roads are much better here.  As I said before, it's worse towards the city (or course, there are also more roads there).

As for VT though, it's bad.  You're just used to the tourist roads up there, like 89, 91, etc..., which they do work on.  But if you live up there and have to drive in the non-tourist dollar areas, it can be an adventure like I've never encountered in New Jersey, and Mister Moose's last post does a great job explaining it better than I could.


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## cdskier (Jul 27, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I live in a very wealthy part of the state, so if money is the issue as DHS suggests, that might be why the roads are much better here.  As I said before, it's worse towards the city (or course, there are also more roads there).
> 
> As for VT though, it's bad.  You're just used to the tourist roads up there, like 89, 91, etc..., which they do work on.  But if you live up there and have to drive in the non-tourist dollar areas, it can be an adventure like I've never encountered in New Jersey, and Mister Moose's last post does a great job explaining it better than I could.



Actually I’m never on 89/91 in VT in the winter. 4/22a/73/100 etc are my typical primary roads. And never had any issues anywhere in the mad river valley area where I spend most of my time up there. Other areas could certainly be problematic though.

As for NJ I’m certainly close to the city so this area may just suck compared to your area. My experience is based on the Bergen/Passaic county area plus 78 east of 287 (I work in Bridgewater).

The absolute best roads ever though from my experience were in Rochester, NY where I lived for 3 winters during college. My junior year we had lake effect snow nearly every day that winter and I lived off campus. Roads were fantastic from a snow clearing perspective.


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## drjeff (Jul 28, 2019)

Up at Mount Snow right now (and have been since Thursday night). Talked to a bunch of employee friends, all year round staff. The consensus is that everyone agrees that change can seem scary at first. Just about everyone was looking forward to Vail Resorts coming in. Everyone is curious to see what will happen with the new ownership.

Also on a side note, between when I was up here last weekend and this weekend, active demolition of the Mountain Ops building that caught fire last month began. Almost looks like they're going to try and salvage the side that was least effected by the fire where the snowcat and heavy equipment maintenance shop was located. Time will tell.

Also, in a couple of the small houses adjacent to the Carinthia parking lot that Mount Snow owns, there's some shiny new signs identifying them as home of the Snowmaking Department and home of the Mountain Ops Department. Guess the plan for this coming season atleast for their replacement office space post fire has been figured out.

Other than that it seems like a "normal" Summer up here. It's quiet, people are getting out and enjoying hiking, biking, boating, paddle boarding, kayaking, etc in the Green Mountains with what looks like a typical Summer maintenance routine going on on the mountain and in the base lodges

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## x10003q (Jul 28, 2019)

Zand said:


> Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.



Getting to Snowbird in that time frame is pure fantasy. The only way you could get to Snowbird from NJ in that time frame is if you are dropped off at the steps of private jet on the runway at Teterboro or Morristown.

Also, Newark Airport to Killington is about 4.5 hours, especially leaving at 4am. If you are 1/2 hour south of Newark Airport, you are still only 5 hours to Killington or 9am arrival.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Up at Mount Snow right now (and have been since Thursday night). Talked to a bunch of employee friends, all year round staff. The consensus is that everyone agrees that change can seem scary at first. Just about everyone was looking forward to Vail Resorts coming in. Everyone is curious to see what will happen with the new ownership.
> 
> Also on a side note, between when I was up here last weekend and this weekend, active demolition of the Mountain Ops building that caught fire last month began. Almost looks like they're going to try and salvage the side that was least effected by the fire where the snowcat and heavy equipment maintenance shop was located. Time will tell.
> 
> ...



I would imagine that Snow will make out just fine under Vail.  Sure, there will be some consolidation and some jobs will be eliminated, but Vail has said in their podcast that they like to come in and work with what they have on the ground.


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## abc (Jul 28, 2019)

Even though I could get to JFK in 45 min (1/2 hr to LGA) at 5am. I’ve NEVER gone to Snowbird for just a weekend. 

The shortest I’ve gone were 3 days. The truth being, it’s really 2 & 1/2 days of skiing. 

It’s totally worth it, when the stars aligned. On the other hand, a 1 & 1/2 day weekend is really questionable. More typically, I do 4 day extended weekend instead. 

But that’s just me. I also don’t go up to Killington every weekend either. It boggles my mind on people driving from the city to MRG every weekend either.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *Talked to a bunch of employee friends*, all year round staff. The *consensus is that everyone agrees that change can seem scary at first. Just about everyone was looking forward to Vail Resorts coming in. *Everyone is curious to see what will happen with the new ownership.



How do you have so many friends who've never heard of the internet?  

Sheep should never be optimistic when wolves move to town.



abc said:


> *It boggles my mind on people driving from the city to MRG every weekend either.*



Welcome to my life.  Leave Thursday afternoon, ski Friday & Saturday, return Sunday. 

Admittedly, I'm going to have a kid born any day now, and I (selfishly) have no idea how this will affect my skiing this season, but I imagine I'm going to go from about 20 days to less than 10 days. 

EDIT:  The upside (so this doesnt sound too depressing) is I'm already thinking it's going to be so cool enrolling them in learn-to-ski when they're 3.5 years old.


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## drjeff (Jul 28, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> How do you have so many friends who've never heard of the internet?
> 
> Sheep should never be optimistic when wolves move to town.
> 
> ...


The friends I talked to, aren't part time seasonal staff, but actual year round employees who chose a career in the ski industry, not glorified ski bums looking for a free season pass.

To them, and yes they are aware of the anti Vail gripes by employees, they see a greater quantity of opportunities for career advancement within Vail Resorts than Peak Resorts. Additionally there was some talk about Vail Resorts full time employee benefits being better than what Peak Resorts offered. 

I'll be curious to see what they're thinking once the deal officially closes and the teams that Vail Resorts deploys to their new acquisitions upon closing to start the integration of the resort into Vail Resorts systems

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## EPB (Jul 28, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> How do you have so many friends who've never heard of the internet?
> 
> Sheep should never be optimistic when wolves move to town.
> 
> ...


I'm in a similar boat. Not getting a pass at all this year. Hoping for a couple weekends and a few random days. Would be happy getting 8-10 days this year. 

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## Domeskier (Jul 29, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Admittedly, I'm going to have a kid born any day now



Congratulations!


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *The friends I talked to, aren't part time seasonal staff, but actual year round employees who chose a career in the ski industry*, not glorified ski bums looking for a free season pass.



Even worse.

When Vail buys a property it achieves margin improvement by getting ridding of precisely those people.   There's already somebody in a seat for XYZ job working in Colorado.   Maybe you'll stay on if you work in day-to-day operations or something like that, but if you work in accounting, finance, marketing, sales, etc... you should probably dust off your resume.



eastern powder baby said:


> I'm in a similar boat. Not getting a pass at all this year. Hoping for a couple weekends and a few random days. Would be happy getting 8-10 days this year.



Congratulations!  

I'm thinking of focusing on quality of days & more storm-hunting (i.e. only go when it's really good).



Domeskier said:


> Congratulations!



Ty.


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## Domeskier (Jul 29, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm in a similar boat.





BenedictGomez said:


> Congratulations!



Seconded!


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## Newpylong (Jul 29, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even worse.
> 
> When Vail buys a property it achieves margin improvement by getting ridding of precisely those people.   There's already somebody in a seat for XYZ job working in Colorado.   Maybe you'll stay on if you work in day-to-day operations or something like that, but if you work in accounting, finance, marketing, sales, etc... you should probably dust off your resume.



Flip side - many promotions / lateral movements within Peak have more to do with who they know and less how they perform their job.

Not all of what that FGBM fellow writes on here is false unfortunately.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Flip side - *many promotions / lateral movements within Peak have more to do with who they know and less how they perform their job.*.



And Vail certainly doesn't work like that.


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## Newpylong (Jul 29, 2019)

It would be naive to think that most corporations do not function like that - just stating the facts as they stand.


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## EPB (Jul 29, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Seconded!


Thanks, and you, too, BG! Thinking of trying to organize a trip with grandparents as built-in baby sitters to Whiteface. Still never been to LP. 

Will be inflexible on the date most likely, which sounds like it could lead to a real hit-or-miss scenario. Still think it would be fun to check the place out. 

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## skifree (Jul 29, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Thanks, and you, too, BG! Thinking of trying to organize a trip with grandparents as built-in baby sitters to Whiteface. Still never been to LP.
> 
> Will be inflexible on the date most likely, which sounds like it could lead to a real hit-or-miss scenario. Still think it would be fun to check the place out.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Congrats!!!
And enjoy new furniture/cars your wife will buy while your skiing.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Thanks, and you, too, BG! *Thinking of trying to organize a trip with grandparents as built-in baby sitters to Whiteface. Still never been to LP.
> 
> Will be inflexible on the date most likely, which sounds like it could lead to a real hit-or-miss scenario.*



I always say,_ "one does not plan a trip to Whiteface"_, but given the infant situation, this would be the rare exception.  There will be plenty of shopping, dining, Olympic site visiting, etc.... to keep the grandparents interest while babysitting.  Sounds like a great plan, just have to hope the snow is there.


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## abc (Jul 29, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I always say,_ "one does not plan a trip to Whiteface"_, but given the infant situation, this would be the rare exception.  There will be plenty of shopping, dining, Olympic site visiting, etc.... to keep the grandparents interest while babysitting.  Sounds like a great plan, just have to hope the snow is there.


I felt WF had improved on that respect? I've had good luck at WF the last few years. I thought their snow making and grooming is decent enough to overcome the iffy conditions.

Or perhaps I was just luckier the last couple times I was up there.


----------



## jaytrem (Jul 29, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Admittedly, I'm going to have a kid born any day now, and I (selfishly) have no idea how this will affect my skiing this season, but I imagine I'm going to go from about 20 days to less than 10 days.
> 
> EDIT:  The upside (so this doesnt sound too depressing) is I'm already thinking it's going to be so cool enrolling them in learn-to-ski when they're 3.5 years old.



Congrats to both you and EPB!  Might not be a popular opinion but teaching your kids yourself can be a blast.  Since my kids started skiing at 4, 100% of their skiing has been with me and 95% of mine has been with them.  That's a boat load of quality time, wouldn't change a thing.


----------



## x10003q (Jul 29, 2019)

abc said:


> I felt WF had improved on that respect? I've had good luck at WF the last few years. I thought their snow making and grooming is decent enough to overcome the iffy conditions.
> 
> Or perhaps I was just luckier the last couple times I was up there.



You just got lucky:-D


----------



## thebigo (Jul 29, 2019)

We got our peak passes in the mail today. They were mailed in a branded envelope, with a small book including a page on each mountain. Also included were several stickers and a branded goggle wipe. Best presentation i recollect over a lifetime of picking up passes and more  typical of a healthy company than one about to sell.


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## Edd (Jul 29, 2019)

thebigo said:


> We got our peak passes in the mail today. They were mailed in a branded envelope, with a small book including a page on each mountain. Also included were several stickers and a branded goggle wipe. Best presentation i recollect over a lifetime of picking up passes and more  typical of a healthy company than one about to sell.



So this was for the Peak hills only, right? Haven’t received mine yet.


----------



## chuckstah (Jul 29, 2019)

thebigo said:


> We got our peak passes in the mail today. They were mailed in a branded envelope, with a small book including a page on each mountain. Also included were several stickers and a branded goggle wipe. Best presentation i recollect over a lifetime of picking up passes and more  typical of a healthy company than one about to sell.


Got mine today as well. Good presentation for sure.   Peak Pass only Edd. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## JimG. (Jul 29, 2019)

Congrats epb and BG!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2019)

So congrats again to the new soon-to-be Dads in the thread.  

As to Vail takeover, I encourage folks to listen to their Podcast that recently came out.  Be forewarned there is a lot of self-administered pats on the back and some spin (to be expected), but the sense I have gotten is that they generally come in and see who is on the ground and try to work with them and keep them in the company if they can.  Granted, there are some exceptions of course, but the impression I got and they seem to put out there is that they will use the better talent of an acquisition and even move or promote them.  The guy in the first episode was a higher-up at Park City and Vail retained him and promoted him.  Another guy (it might be the same guy...I can't remember) was excited to be promoted to the head of Keystone (IIRC) or something like that.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 30, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So congrats again to the new soon-to-be Dads in the thread.
> 
> As to Vail takeover, I encourage folks to listen to their Podcast that recently came out.  Be forewarned there is a lot of self-administered pats on the back and some spin (to be expected), but the sense I have gotten is that they generally come in and see who is on the ground and try to work with them and keep them in the company if they can.  Granted, there are some exceptions of course, but the impression I got and they seem to put out there is that they will use the better talent of an acquisition and even move or promote them.  The guy in the first episode was a higher-up at Park City and Vail retained him and promoted him.  Another guy (it might be the same guy...I can't remember) was excited to be promoted to the head of Keystone (IIRC) or something like that.


Listened to that one as well this past week. It was the same guy who wasa finance guy at Park City pre Vail merger, then was identified by Vail as a leader they saw talent in, was promoted into a GM roll about a year after the Park City merger at their newly acquired Mount Brighton to oversee a full redevelopment of the mountain post Vail aquisition, and then through lateral promotions was then promoted to the GM at Keystone.

I thought Rob Katz's comment about what Vail does post acquisition when they start the integration of a new resort into Vail Resorts operations was quite interesting when he said (paraphrasing here) - it's not like on Day 1 after the merger goes through a bus full of current Vail Resorts employees shows up and tells all existing employees of the acquired resorts that they're fired.

The other one of the Epic by Nature  podcast episodes I felt gave some decent insight into what their corporate philosophy about identifying, developing, and then placing people into leadership roles within the company, and then continuing to help those individuals expand their leadership skills and achieve their career goals, was the podcast about women leaders.

I agree with TB that obviously Rob Katz and Vail Resorts are going to put their best shine on these podcasts, however, there's a bunch of substance in them as well, where you get the distinct sense that just like any business, they want to identify, recruit, develop, retain, and help enable talent to allow the company to thrive as best possible

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## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2019)

Zand said:


> Let's say you wake up at 4:00 on Saturday morning in Newark and have the option to go to the west (let's say Utah) or let's say Killington. You can head to the airport and be on a flight, on the ground, in a car, and skiing Snowbird at 9:30. Good luck being at Killington by 9:30. South of NYC it's definitely quicker to fly west and, depending on where you're going, easier.



Uh... no.

Let's look at Saturday, February 1st as an example.  The earliest arrival into Salt Lake City for a flight departing Newark is 10:37 AM.  After you land, you still have to get your luggage and get to Snowbird.  Add at least an hour for that.  So the earliest you could pull into the parking lot, assuming everything goes absolutely perfectly, is 11:37 AM - which is really 1:37 PM EST.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 30, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So congrats again to the new soon-to-be Dads in the thread.
> 
> As to Vail takeover, I encourage folks to listen to their Podcast that recently came out.  Be forewarned there is a lot of self-administered pats on the back and some spin (to be expected), but the sense I have gotten is that they generally come in and see who is on the ground and try to work with them and keep them in the company if they can.  Granted, there are some exceptions of course, but the impression I got and they seem to put out there is that they will use the better talent of an acquisition and even move or promote them.  The guy in the first episode was a higher-up at Park City and Vail retained him and promoted him.  Another guy (it might be the same guy...I can't remember) was excited to be promoted to the head of Keystone (IIRC) or something like that.



Congrats to BG and EPB as well!

In terms of the Vail takeover - As someone that has been through multiple corporate mergers, take anything said by execs as part of their "strategy" with a grain of salt. They almost always say the "right things" initially about what they want to do. And there absolutely will be examples of people they want to keep and promote, etc. However there will also be many redundant positions eliminated and many people that quietly disappear once they understand who does what and how valuable or necessary different people are.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> In terms of the Vail takeover - As someone that has been through multiple corporate mergers, take anything said by execs as part of their "strategy" with a grain of salt. They almost always say the "right things" initially about what they want to do. And there absolutely will be examples of people they want to keep and promote, etc. However there will also be many redundant positions eliminated and many people that quietly disappear once they understand who does what and how valuable or necessary different people are.


This is spot on.  Did you really think that they are going to say, "Yeah, we are going to do some cleaning house."

Mergers and acquisitions always involve the elimination of redundancy.  Always.

It is possible that they like to retain as many people as is commercially reasonable, but they will definitely be looking at improving efficiencies.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2019)

x10003q said:


> You just got lucky:-D



Pretty much.  Though truth be told Lake Placid is such a great town that even if we have to bail on a day of skiing we can find something else fun to do.  My wife grew up XC skiing in Vermont, and snowshoeing is always fun, etc...  Still need to take their "Be a Biathlete" course one of these days too. 



JimG. said:


> Congrats epb and BG!





thetrailboss said:


> So congrats again to the new soon-to-be Dads in the thread.





cdskier said:


> Congrats to BG and EPB as well!



Thanks guys.


cdskier said:


> In terms of the Vail takeover - *As someone that has been through multiple corporate mergers, take anything said by execs as part of their "strategy" with a grain of salt. They almost always say the "right things" initially about what they want to do.* And there absolutely will be examples of people they want to keep and promote, etc. However there will also be many redundant positions eliminated and many people that quietly disappear once they understand who does what and how valuable or necessary different people are.



THIS.

If management is telling the truth immediately post any acquisition, you need new management.


----------



## catskillman (Jul 30, 2019)

This should stop all the ongoing argument and 2 cent comments  - thankfully.........

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/...ategy-behind-buying.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo


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## EPB (Jul 30, 2019)

catskillman said:


> This should stop all the ongoing argument and 2 cent comments  - thankfully.........
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/...ategy-behind-buying.html?ana=yahoo&yptr=yahoo


Translation: EPB knows what he's talking about.[emoji16]

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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2019)

Here's a great example of management BS regarding M&A, directly from that article.



> *While Katz wouldn’t rule out investment in more urban areas, he also said there were “only select locations left”*_ near major snow-generating cities that aren’t under the Vail umbrella._



That is a 100% Wall Street placating answer designed to keep his stock from dropping.   And it is the correct answer, meaning it is a lie.


----------



## RichT (Jul 30, 2019)

Not having the Midweek pass at Hunter is going to piss off a lot of locals


----------



## chuckstah (Jul 30, 2019)

RichT said:


> Not having the Midweek pass at Hunter is going to piss off a lot of locals


Yup, and not just Hunter. I've had the midweek last few years to ski mainly Crotched, with select days at Wildcat or Snow for around $300.  No midweek blackouts at Crotched.  $700 will send me on my way to a new mountain home, unless a trip West is planned. I hate most weekend skiing. 

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## abc (Jul 30, 2019)

RichT said:


> Not having the Midweek pass at Hunter is going to piss off a lot of locals


It’ll probably still available for the 19/20 season. Just ski the hell out of it to get the most value out for one last time. Then move on to any “other mountains”.


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## jaytrem (Jul 31, 2019)

Anybody recall the early purchase price for the Peak Pass Explorer Adult and Youth?  Thanks!


----------



## thebigo (Jul 31, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Anybody recall the early purchase price for the Peak Pass Explorer Adult and Youth?  Thanks!



The full adult pass was $629, dont remember the kid price my oldest sneaked into the scout for one more year. Edit: looks like the youth pass was $399.

I still don't understand the cost to switch to epic, is it the the current epic local price less the peak pass purchase price or the epic local at the time your peak pass was purchased. When does the epic pass price increase? What was the epic local early buy price?


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## Edd (Jul 31, 2019)

thebigo said:


> The full adult pass was $629, dont remember the kid price my oldest sneaked into the scout for one more year. Edit: looks like the youth pass was $399.
> 
> I still don't understand the cost to switch to epic, is it the the current epic local price less the peak pass purchase price or the epic local at the time your peak pass was purchased.



It depends on what you bought and what you want. For example, I bought a Peak Traveler. If I want an Epic Local, that’s a far more substantial pass and I’d have to pay the difference. What’s I’m not sure of is, if you bought early and wish to convert, will you be granted the early price on your new pass?


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## njdiver85 (Jul 31, 2019)

I re-read the FAQ's, and my take on it now is that the upgrade cost will the difference on date of exchange between Peak and Epic passes.  So what you paid for the Peak pass won't matter.  What will matter is the price of the Peak Pass on the day you make the upgrade, relative to the Epic pass on that day.


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## jaytrem (Jul 31, 2019)

thebigo said:


> The full adult pass was $629, dont remember the kid price my oldest sneaked into the scout for one more year. Edit: looks like the youth pass was $399.
> 
> I still don't understand the cost to switch to epic, is it the the current epic local price less the peak pass purchase price or the epic local at the time your peak pass was purchased. When does the epic pass price increase? What was the epic local early buy price?



Thanks!  Yup confusing stuff.  I bought tickets to California yesterday. Would like to ski Kirkwood/Heavenly/Northstar.  Trying to figure out my best plan of attack.  Already have Ikon too, so worst case no Epic skiing for us.  With my wife's cousin having a house at Squaw I was REALLY hoping if somebody bought Peak it would be Alterra.  Anyway, Epic would be $30 less per kid (2 kids) than Peak Pass was, and Epic for me would be $70 more.  If I can get away with an upgrade for $10 total I'll take it.


----------



## mbedle (Jul 31, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> I re-read the FAQ's, and my take on it now is that the upgrade cost will the difference on date of exchange between Peak and Epic passes.  So what you paid for the Peak pass won't matter.  What will matter is the price of the Peak Pass on the day you make the upgrade, relative to the Epic pass on that day.



I read that differently, it seems that they will value the Peak Pass at what you paid for it and charge you the difference (or refund) based on the price of the Epic Pass on the date of exchange. Which sucks, because if you don't want to gamble on the sale not happening, you are going to be purchasing the epic pass at its premium price.


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## njdiver85 (Jul 31, 2019)

I suppose you can read it two ways.  Here is the text:

"You will receive current benefits and will be charged or refunded the difference in price based on the day of the exchange"


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## drjeff (Jul 31, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I read that differently, it seems that they will value the Peak Pass at what you paid for it and charge you the difference (or refund) based on the price of the Epic Pass on the date of exchange. Which sucks, because if you don't want to gamble on the sale not happening, you are going to be purchasing the epic pass at its premium price.



After reading it about 10 times, that's how I take it too.

I'm hoping, that once the deal closes, Vail Resorts will announce that any "upgrades" from a Peak product to an Epic product will have the Epic product at the same price it would of been at the time of the purchase of the Peak product - that would certainly be a nice welcoming token to a new customer base for sure, and I'm guessing would likely sell a few more Epic upgrades with thoughts of a Western trip this coming season for some for sure.  The optics of telling someone who bought at one price deadline level that their upgrade, which they probably never figured would be an option when they bought their Peak product, would come at the (likely) highest sale price point of an Epic product (I'm guessing the deal closes after the last "early season" price increase), isn't exactly the best way to "introduce" themselves to the Peak passholder group.


----------



## big_vert (Jul 31, 2019)

True, however this is what those in Utah are terrified of - a deluge of east coast "experts" coming to flail about in the powder and scrape the hill off by sideslipping the steeper-than-Stratton blues found at every area in Utah (except PowMow which is about as flat as Stratton).

First things I got from my PC buddies was - "oh no, here come "the experts" - PC is crowded enough now without the Mt Snow crowd inflicting themselves on us".

Go to Killington.



VTKilarney said:


> Uh... no.
> 
> Let's look at Saturday, February 1st as an example.  The earliest arrival into Salt Lake City for a flight departing Newark is 10:37 AM.  After you land, you still have to get your luggage and get to Snowbird.  Add at least an hour for that.  So the earliest you could pull into the parking lot, assuming everything goes absolutely perfectly, is 11:37 AM - which is really 1:37 PM EST.


----------



## Domeskier (Jul 31, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I'm hoping, that once the deal closes, Vail Resorts will announce that any "upgrades" from a Peak product to an Epic product will have the Epic product at the same price it would of been at the time of the purchase of the Peak product - that would certainly be a nice welcoming token to a new customer base for sure.



That would be nice.  My guess is that at most they'll do some hand-waiving about how they'd like to do it, but it's just too hard for them to figure out when Peak passes were purchased and what the EPIC pass would have cost at the time.  Complete nonsense, but maybe it pacifies a few people.  Probably better to just charge current prices and say nothing.


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## abc (Jul 31, 2019)

big_vert said:


> True, however this is what those in Utah are terrified of - a deluge of east coast "experts" coming to flail about in the powder and scrape the hill off by sideslipping the steeper-than-Stratton blues found at every area in Utah (except PowMow which is about as flat as Stratton).
> 
> First things I got from my PC buddies was - "oh no, here come "the experts" - PC is crowded enough now without the Mt Snow crowd inflicting themselves on us".


The snobs of PC can rest easy.  (if he hasn't been since last season)

First, majority of them will be flocking to Colorado. (flights are cheaper, more mountains to choose from. And let's face it, who doesn't want to tick off Vail from their bucket list?) Not to mention there's no holiday restriction in the Colorado mountains. 

Second, Park City is no Snowbird. It's not much more "difficult" than Stratton! 

By the way, Stratton skiers aren't going to Park City anyway. Straotton is part of IKON, not part of EPIC. If he had to worry, it's the Okemo locals who frail around scrapping the snow on anything steeper than Okemo "black". 

And guess what? Okemo had been part of Epic since last season!

(My PC local friends joined me at Brighton/Solitude when I was there in February. I did not hear a single complain about unskilled eastern skiers invading PC. I was the one apologizing for the crowds at Solitude, thanks to IKON)

Snobs are snobs no matter where they live.


----------



## mister moose (Jul 31, 2019)

big_vert said:


> True, however this is what those in Utah are terrified of - a deluge of east coast "experts" coming to flail about in the powder and scrape the hill off by sideslipping the steeper-than-Stratton blues found at every area in Utah (except PowMow which is about as flat as Stratton).
> 
> First things I got from my PC buddies was - "oh no, here come "the experts" - PC is crowded enough now without the Mt Snow crowd inflicting themselves on us".
> 
> Go to Killington.



You can thank the ski manufacturers, who made powder skiing easier with fat skis and lots of rocker to generate more sales.  That led to, you guessed it, more folks thrashing in the powder.  It's more than sideslipping, its traversing, wide track turn/stop, turn/stop,  and laying tracks all over the place, rather than just skiing the fall line.

More epic passes = more epic traffic out west, it's Vail's main product.  The population of Colorado/Utah is 8 million, the northeast is 64 million.  Get used to it.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2019)

mister moose said:


> *More epic passes = more epic traffic out west, it's Vail's main product.  The population of Colorado/Utah is 8 million, the northeast is 64 million.  Get used to it.*



THIS.

It's not complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWRks9nlSPs


----------



## thebigo (Jul 31, 2019)

I called epic pass customer service tonight while making dinner, after about a dozen prompts and nearly a 1/2 hour, I finally got a live human being on the phone. Upon asking the cost of upgrading from peaks to epic local, she informed that she did not have any information because we were not in their system. She further informed me that the next epic price increase was likely in September, the increase would be nominal. Also we can expect an announcement prior to the price increase detailing costs associated with upgrade, further she indicated the costs would be based on our original purchase price. I left the conversation with the impression that the details are still being worked out. On a positive note, despite the wait and lack of specifics, I left my first vail interaction with a generally positive feeling; it pays to employ well demeanored people in customer facing roles.


----------



## Edd (Jul 31, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Listened to that one as well this past week. It was the same guy who wasa finance guy at Park City pre Vail merger, then was identified by Vail as a leader they saw talent in, was promoted into a GM roll about a year after the Park City merger at their newly acquired Mount Brighton to oversee a full redevelopment of the mountain post Vail aquisition, and then through lateral promotions was then promoted to the GM at Keystone.
> 
> I thought Rob Katz's comment about what Vail does post acquisition when they start the integration of a new resort into Vail Resorts operations was quite interesting when he said (paraphrasing here) - it's not like on Day 1 after the merger goes through a bus full of current Vail Resorts employees shows up and tells all existing employees of the acquired resorts that they're fired.
> 
> ...



I found that episode very interesting, particularly the bit about acquiring Whistler and having to downgrade one of their superior systems (can’t remember which) in order to integrate to Vail. I bet the Whistler people were very unhappy about that.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 31, 2019)

Edd said:


> I found that episode very interesting, particularly the bit about acquiring Whistler and having to downgrade one of their superior systems (can’t remember which) in order to integrate to Vail. I bet the Whistler people were very unhappy about that.


Didn't that end up with Vail realizing that Whistler's (I believe it was property booking software) system was better than Vail's and then quickly Vail made the more labor intensive choice to integrate all the existing Vail Resorts into Whistler's superior booking software system verses the much less labor intensive choice to integrate Whistler into Vail's inferior booking software system?

I remember one of the take aways I had from that episode is that while Vail Resorts strives to make their operating practices and systems the best in the business, they're not afraid to admit that if others have a better system than theirs, that they need to change their system to the better one, regardless of who developed it. Kind of a best practices verses proprietary best practices when the situation presents itself

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Jul 31, 2019)

thebigo said:


> I called epic pass customer service tonight while making dinner, after about a dozen prompts and nearly a 1/2 hour, I finally got a live human being on the phone. Upon asking the cost of upgrading from peaks to epic local, she informed that she did not have any information because we were not in their system. She further informed me that the next epic price increase was likely in September, the increase would be nominal. Also we can expect an announcement prior to the price increase detailing costs associated with upgrade, further she indicated the costs would be based on our original purchase price. I left the conversation with the impression that the details are still being worked out. On a positive note, despite the wait and lack of specifics, I left my first vail interaction with a generally positive feeling; it pays to employ well demeanored people in customer facing roles.


The impression I have, is that much of the final details of what will happen if a current Peak passholders wants to upgrade to an Epic product has been worked out behind the scenes already. However, due to various business reasons, they are unable to announce those details until after the deal has received federal/legal approval and officially closes

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----------



## cdskier (Jul 31, 2019)

drjeff said:


> The impression I have, is that much of the final details of what will happen if a current Peak passholders wants to upgrade to an Epic product has been worked out behind the scenes already. However, due to various business reasons, they are unable to announce those details until after the deal has received federal/legal approval and officially closes



I'm sure they know exactly what the plan is. I'd imagine the plan is pretty much the same as when they acquired Okemo and the other related properties. Perhaps we have an Okemo passholder here that "upgraded" to Epic the year of the acquisition and can share the way it was handled.


----------



## Edd (Jul 31, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Didn't that end up with Vail realizing that Whistler's (I believe it was property booking software) system was better than Vail's and then quickly Vail made the more labor intensive choice to integrate all the existing Vail Resorts into Whistler's superior booking software system verses the much less labor intensive choice to integrate Whistler into Vail's inferior booking software system?
> 
> I remember one of the take aways I had from that episode is that while Vail Resorts strives to make their operating practices and systems the best in the business, they're not afraid to admit that if others have a better system than theirs, that they need to change their system to the better one, regardless of who developed it. Kind of a best practices verses proprietary best practices when the situation presents itself
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



I was listening while working but my memory tells me that it was far easier to make Whistler adapt than change every other property as far as the booking system. There could have been other, less crucial practices that they adopted from Whistler.


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## thebigo (Jul 31, 2019)

_If I purchased my Okemo, Mount Sunapee or Crested Butte season pass before 6/4/2018 and I now want to upgrade to an Epic Pass, can I get the same Epic Pass price and benefits from 6/4/2018?
Following closure of the acquisition, guests exchanging an Okemo, Mount Sunapee, or Crested Butte pass product purchased prior to the acquisition announced on 6/4/2018 will be eligible to purchase another product at the price and benefit offering available for that product on 6/4/2018 for a limited time._

Above was extracted from the okemo/sunapee faqs last year


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## mbedle (Aug 1, 2019)

Edd said:


> I was listening while working but my memory tells me that it was far easier to make Whistler adapt than change every other property as far as the booking system. There could have been other, less crucial practices that they adopted from Whistler.



Got to feel bad for Inntopia, they only got to hold onto that contract for maybe a year. Looks like Vail is now using Spotlio for booking on their sites.


----------



## RichT (Aug 1, 2019)

I'm the other way, I paid $649(?) back in April for the Peak pass, I'm a veteran and Epic offers the same pass for $529(?), wonder if I'll get a refund?


----------



## drjeff (Aug 1, 2019)

RichT said:


> I'm the other way, I paid $649(?) back in April for the Peak pass, I'm a veteran and Epic offers the same pass for $529(?), wonder if I'll get a refund?



That they have been very clear about, where if you choose to switch from a Peak product to an Epic product and the Epic product is less, you will get a refund once the deal closes and you change passes. 

On a similar note, of if purchased already both a Peak pass product and an Epic pass product, they will be eligible to get a full refund of their Peak pass product once the deal closes


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 1, 2019)

mister moose said:


> More epic passes = more epic traffic out west, it's Vail's main product.  The population of Colorado/Utah is 8 million, the northeast is 64 million.  Get used to it.



Along with the brutal grooming policies that east-coast experts demand from their resorts!  Vail is going to need a uniform product that appeals to its (now) largest demographic, after all.


----------



## RichT (Aug 1, 2019)

Great!!!!



drjeff said:


> that they have been very clear about, where if you choose to switch from a peak product to an epic product and the epic product is less, you will get a refund once the deal closes and you change passes.
> 
> On a similar note, of if purchased already both a peak pass product and an epic pass product, they will be eligible to get a full refund of their peak pass product once the deal closes


----------



## big_vert (Aug 2, 2019)

abc said:


> The snobs of PC can rest easy.  (if he hasn't been since last season)
> 
> First, majority of them will be flocking to Colorado. (flights are cheaper, more mountains to choose from. And let's face it, who doesn't want to tick off Vail from their bucket list?) Not to mention there's no holiday restriction in the Colorado mountains.
> 
> ...



Apparently you have no clue. Ever hear of 9990 at PC - let's do a lap and tell me that it's Stratton west. Empire Canyon at Deer Valley - yea - learn your areas.? Duh much? Right, PC isn't Snowbird, but apparently you don't know where to go. BTW, Fail is no Snowbird, by a long shot. Where do you go - Breckenflat?

Everyone goes to CO - right, to drive for 3 hours on I-70, and you talk about FAIL - Colorado's version of Stratton. Like really, talk about Fail. A Basin OK, but VAIL!!!:roll: And in case you didn't know there's 10 mountains within an hour of SLC, but right, all will flock to CO - makes sense.

Great, Brighton (the boarders hill) and Sillytude. So much fail in that sentence. You have Snowbasin, Snowbird, Alta, and so on, and went to Brighton / Solitude. OMG.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2019)

Well that escalated quickly.


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## abc (Aug 2, 2019)

Some people who can’t even read.

But that doesn’t stop the from writing...garbage.


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## skifree (Aug 2, 2019)

Thank you


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## FBGM (Aug 2, 2019)

abc said:


> Some people who can’t even read.
> 
> But that doesn’t stop the from writing...garbage.



Just bitter that we are right. And live in town. And you slum it on the east coast.


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## Edd (Aug 2, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Just bitter that we are right. And live in town. And you slum it on the east coast.



Aren’t skier visits far greater in CO than Utah?


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## FBGM (Aug 2, 2019)

Edd said:


> Aren’t skier visits far greater in CO than Utah?



Yes. Lots more. And the snow is worse and less. And location sucks to airport. And the terrain is hit and miss. But it’s closer to Texas


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## Edd (Aug 3, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Yes. Lots more. And the snow is worse and less. And location sucks to airport. And the terrain is hit and miss. But it’s closer to Texas



That makes me wonder how the Tahoe area compares to Utah visit-wise.


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## machski (Aug 3, 2019)

Edd said:


> That makes me wonder how the Tahoe area compares to Utah visit-wise.


Probably equal to or greater than Utah.  A lot more people in the Bay and Sacramento areas within driving distance than Utah has I would imagine.  Plus the relatively quick flights up from LA/San Diego to Reno/Sacramento.

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## abc (Aug 3, 2019)

Tahoe is mostly a “local” ski area, for those living in San Francisco.


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## machski (Aug 3, 2019)

abc said:


> Tahoe is mostly a “local” ski area, for those living in San Francisco.


I would not say that, I have run into many from the North East when in Tahoe, including this June skiing at Squaw.

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## abc (Aug 3, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Just bitter that we are right. And live in town. And you slum it on the east coast.


Ignorance sees no bounds. 

Slumming in the east coast give me quick overnight flights to skiing the Alps. Living in town give me quick and cheap access to JFK to ski in Japan at the drop of a hat! 

Broadway during the week, weekend day trip to Plattekill where there’s no lift line. That is, in between the trip to Japan and the trip to Big Sky. The abundant jobs easily finance those trips. 

I wonder who’s being bitter and feel the need to put down on others in order to quench your own doubt. :roll:


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## abc (Aug 3, 2019)

machski said:


> I would not say that, I have run into many from the North East when in Tahoe, including this June skiing at Squaw.


I said “mostly”. Of course not entirely.

Still, “California locals” far outnumbers visitors from other regions. More so than say Summit county Colorado, or Salt Lake City.


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## FBGM (Aug 3, 2019)

abc said:


> Ignorance sees no bounds.
> 
> Slumming in the east coast give me quick overnight flights to skiing the Alps. Living in town give me quick and cheap access to JFK to ski in Japan at the drop of a hat!
> 
> ...




lol keep telling yourself that bro. 

NY Giants are gonna be super bowl contenders this year as well.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 3, 2019)

FBGM said:


> lol keep telling yourself that bro.
> 
> NY Giants are gonna be super bowl contenders this year as well.



This is a pathetic comeback; your troll-game is in serious decline.


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## Domeskier (Aug 3, 2019)

FBGM said:


> lol keep telling yourself that bro.
> 
> NY Giants are gonna be super bowl contenders this year as well.



One of the perks of living in Manhattan is not being surrounded by the type of people for whom the performance of the local professional sports franchises matter.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 3, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> One of the perks of living in Manhattan is not being surrounded by the type of people for whom the performance of the local professional sports franchises matter.



You still run the risk of potentially touching a member of the B&T crowd if you take the subway.


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## Domeskier (Aug 3, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> You still run the risk of potentially touching a member of the B&T crowd if you take the subway.



True. But it can be amusing even now and then to see adults decked out in the caps and jerseys of their favorite sports heroes.


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## Edd (Aug 3, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is a pathetic comeback; your troll-game is in serious decline.



A consequence of the Peaks acquisition, presumably. It’s difficult to fill the void. He’ll get there.


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## catskillman (Aug 6, 2019)

Any idea what Vail will do with lifetime passholders?????  Peak let those with them at Hunter keep them, but I doubt that will be the case with Vail.......


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## skiur (Aug 7, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Any idea what Vail will do with lifetime passholders?????  Peak let those with them at Hunter keep them, but I doubt that will be the case with Vail.......



I expect it to be similar to when powdr took over Killington, your going to have a bunch of pissed off lifetime passholders.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

Was the pass good for the lifetime of the passholder? Or for the lifetime of the company that owns the mountain?


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 7, 2019)

AIG Stowe had lifetime passes which were supposed to be good for the lifetime of the passholder-- which I was told became invalid after the Vail acquisition.


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## catskillman (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> Was the pass good for the lifetime of the passholder? Or for the lifetime of the company that owns the mountain?




There are folks that bought a lifetime pass.  Good for their life.  Peak honored them.

Then there are ex volunteers that earned a pass after 12 years.   Peak honored them also.  

apparently the sale to peak did not address them, but they honored them.

Peak eliminated the 70+ heavily discount pass.  However, there was another option that was only a diferance of $100, most of them bought this but continue to complain that they got screwed relentlesly.  What makes them think they are entitled to this confuses me to no end.  Why would a public company be required to sell you something they do not offer just because of your birthday?

I am not 70 but it would have been nice when I get there.  I won't stop skiing because of it, and if I don't have an extra $100 a year in the budget, maybe I should not be skiing.


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## catskillman (Aug 7, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> AIG Stowe had lifetime passes which were supposed to be good for the lifetime of the passholder-- which I was told became invalid after the Vail acquisition.



Yeah, I am sure this is what will happen with those at Hunter.  They are all worried.  But Vail can't give those at Hunter a pass if they did not give them to those at Stowe and other mountains they acquired.  IF other mountains even had them to begin with.


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## Edd (Aug 7, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> AIG Stowe had lifetime passes which were supposed to be good for the lifetime of the passholder-- which I was told became invalid after the Vail acquisition.



I remember similar things happening at Killington after an acquisition. 

In this case, I find a move like that so short-sighted. The negative feelings generated vs. how ever much extra profit they expect to make doesn’t compute for me.


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## cdskier (Aug 7, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Yeah, I am sure this is what will happen with those at Hunter.  They are all worried.  But Vail can't give those at Hunter a pass if they did not give them to those at Stowe and other mountains they acquired.  IF other mountains even had them to begin with.



Curious...how much did these lifetime passes cost? Can't say I would blame Vail at all for not honoring them though unless it was explicitly detailed in the sale contract that they had to. Lifetime passes that were paid to a previous owner bring nearly 0 value to a new owner even if you account for some goodwill and F&B purchases or something like that. The way I see it, at least some of these people would likely buy new passes if their lifetime ones were taken away. Even if it is a small percentage, that is most likely still more revenue than you're getting otherwise from these lifetime passholders if you had let them keep using them.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

It's really hard to have a contract outlasting the entity. Peak may be bound by the contract to honor it in the sales contract. But that contract between the owner of Hunter and Peak wouldn't have any validity for Vail. And what's the benefit for the selling entity to insist the lifetime passes to be honored by the buyer? 

(If I'm selling my house, I can ask the buyer to accept my cat. If the buyer happen to like cat anyway, he/she might agree. But by the time the house is sold again, there's no guarantee the new seller feel strongly about MY cat. And if the new buyer don't care for cats, the cat got sent to the shelter!)

The benefit from Vail's perspective is different. Lifetime pass holders are typically the biggest marketer of the mountain. They love it so much they either 1) paid for a lifetime pass or, 2) earn it some way. So if they're still skiing, they would quite likely bring their family/friends to ski there -- paying day/season pass! 

Take their passes away, they turned into the biggest badmouther of the mountain! But I guess Vail figure they could survive the badmouthing. They did that in Stowe. So they're more than likely to do that in Hunter.


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## Newpylong (Aug 7, 2019)

Yes those Killington lifetime passes were for the Sherburne Corporation aka S-K-I which was the legal DBA name of K even after the acquisition by ASC. Upon purchase, Powdr changed the legal name, and nulled the lifetime passes legally by doing this.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

Edd said:


> In this case, I find a move like that so short-sighted. The negative feelings generated vs. how ever much extra profit they expect to make doesn’t compute for me.



Agreed.  Particularly for a company with market cap of nearly $10B.  I wouldn't be surprised if they lost more pass sales than they gain with such a move.  Lifetime pass-holders probably have family members who buy passes; I can see them all moving their business down the road if treated like that.  Vail should just let this miniscule number of skiers age out of the sport and not try to bleed them for profits that wouldn't even amount to a rounding error.


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## chuckstah (Aug 7, 2019)

Lifetime passes at Wildcat were voided when Peak bought them, although IIRC they were given one final season as the deal was finalized. The results led to lots of negative comments and press, probably why they let Hunter lifetimes remain, figuring it's not worth it to cancel them. 

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## EPB (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> It's really hard to have a contract outlasting the entity. Peak may be bound by the contract to honor it in the sales contract. But that contract between the owner of Hunter and Peak wouldn't have any validity for Vail. And what's the benefit for the selling entity to insist the lifetime passes to be honored by the buyer?
> 
> (If I'm selling my house, I can ask the buyer to accept my cat. If the buyer happen to like cat anyway, he/she might agree. But by the time the house is sold again, there's no guarantee the new seller feel strongly about MY cat. And if the new buyer don't care for cats, the cat got sent to the shelter!)
> 
> ...


I've never understood the outrage at the buying party for not honoring lifetime passes. Those were agreements forged between the SELLER and the passholders. Often, the owner of a mountain will sell lifetime passes as a way to raise money. They take the passholder's cash and use it to improve the mountain in some way and then sell the improved mountain to someone else. They have the option to "do right" by their lifetime passholders by taking a haircut on their purchase price to continue lifetime pass benefits for those who "invested" in them (e.g. agree to take x times the cost of a season pass for each lifetime passholder off the purchase price to ensure their benefits continue). They could also pay lifetime holders a dividend after the sale if they wanted. Why lifetime pass holders act like the buyer owes them anything, I will never understand.

As a side note, it seems like in most cases, lifetime passholders have usually earned a pretty return on their investments by the time their mountains are sold anyway. Wildcat was a recent example where, as I recall, lifetime passholders had their passes for an average of 30+ years, and they hadn't been offered for so long that nobody could reasonably say they had been ripped off (e.g. paying 5X the cost of a pass in 1985 for 25+ years of passes is a screaming deal). Yes, it's unfortunate that they didn't keep their benefits under Peak, but they got a great deal (and as I understand it) had no legal or ethical claim against Peak.

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## drjeff (Aug 7, 2019)

Edd said:


> I remember similar things happening at Killington after an acquisition.
> 
> In this case, I find a move like that so short-sighted. The negative feelings generated vs. how ever much extra profit they expect to make doesn’t compute for me.



I think that yes, there is some negativity towards the new owners if they choose not to honor a lifetime pass issued by previous owners. I also think that short of small sized forums such as AZ and a few other ski forums, as well as some locals that it affects, the masses who will frequent the ski area aren't aware of this situation, those who may have a "lifetime" pass are likely tied to the area itself via real estate and/or businesses in the area, so chances of them leaving, or if they own a business in the area, the area seeing a drop in customers, is small.

The entire lifetime pass concept is certainly a conundrum. Yup, many ski areas, decades ago, when they were opening up and/or expanding needed the capital infusions that the investments that people chose to make in a "lifetime" pass brought the ski area. As time goes on, and ownership changes, unless it was explicitly stated that transfer of the pass would remain if the resort was sold to another resort operator, as we all have seen, that gray area of "goodwill" verses legally bound/obligated to issue a new pass going forward. The person making the initial investment also took some risk in that the ski area they were investing in would remain open so they could continue to use their passes (My Mom for example had bought the equivalent of a "lifetime pass" in the form of a bond issued by the long since closed Mt Tom ski area outside of Springfield, MA back in the 60's. If Mount Tom was to ever re-open, even though there's been legal chain of ownership of the property from the developers she had originally bought the bond from, highly doubt there'd be any legal ground to stand on should she decide to pursue a pass with any new potential owner/operator)

I'm sure some of the Killington long timers can add/correct me on this, but I think the Killington situation was they were "bond passes" and that since they were issued as essentially an investment "bond" with a side perk of a season pass while the company was in existence, it was determined that at some point, where there was a full change in the ownership, and not just the original owners changing the name of the holding company, that the original agreement between the original owner and the bond investor lost legal status going forward, and thus the "requirement" to issue a season pass each year ended (Guessing some lawyers made enough trying to figure all this out to buy a lifetime of season passes for themselves ;-) )

Just an interesting topic to consider when all of the variables are considered.....


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## cdskier (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Agreed.  Particularly for a company with market cap of nearly $10B.  I wouldn't be surprised if they lost more pass sales than they gain with such a move.  Lifetime pass-holders probably have family members who buy passes; I can see them all moving their business down the road if treated like that.  Vail should just let this miniscule number of skiers age out of the sport and not try to bleed them for profits that wouldn't even amount to a rounding error.



I don't think it is as simple as "well I'll just take my business elsewhere then". Let's look at Hunter. What other options are there in that same general area? Windham, Belleayre, and Platty. If you're a Hunter lifetime passholder, would you be happy at any of those other resorts? A Platty pass would cost you about the same as an Epic Local pass (and get you a far shorter and less reliable season). I love Platty's terrain but personally would have a hard time justifying the cost of their pass. A Windham pass would cost substantially more than an Epic local pass (nearly double) and I'd say the terrain is nowhere near what Hunter offers. A Belleayre standalone pass that doesn't include Gore or WF would be cheaper than an Epic Local and would probably be the best alternative for someone in that scenario. I happen to love Belleayre, but would Hunter lifetime passholders that have skied there for ages feel the same way? Then there's also the real-estate factor to consider. If you had a lifetime pass to Hunter and made that your home mountain, did that mean you also had property in the area? Some people may have just been day-tripping, but I'd have to imagine some are also local property owners. Now if you lose your lifetime pass and decide to spend money to ski somewhere else, you'll also have to factor in driving to that other mountain every time you want to ski. If you genuinely liked Hunter, going somewhere else seems a lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. So in conclusion, I don't buy the argument that most (or even many) of the lifetime passholders are going to just go elsewhere. Sure they may complain, but I don't know that matters enough to negatively impact the bottom line.

Overall though I still think anyone that expects a lifetime pass to truly last forever even through ownership changes is a bit naive and unrealistic. You have to realize there's a risk that a future owner wouldn't honor your pass.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

> A Platty pass would cost you about the same as an Epic Local pass


You're only looking at the full pass. 

Senior and mid-week passes are much cheaper. But Vail doesn't offer either.

But your point on no alternative is right on.


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## Edd (Aug 7, 2019)

To posters pointing out that we all need to have our big boy pants on about lifetime anything, I get it. 

But the goodwill created by continuing to honor these passes (seriously, how many can there be) seems more valuable to me than a few extra bucks. It’ll cement some loyalty instead of resentment. 


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## catskillman (Aug 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Curious...how much did these lifetime passes cost? Can't say I would blame Vail at all for not honoring them though unless it was explicitly detailed in the sale contract that they had to. Lifetime passes that were paid to a previous owner bring nearly 0 value to a new owner even if you account for some goodwill and F&B purchases or something like that. The way I see it, at least some of these people would likely buy new passes if their lifetime ones were taken away. Even if it is a small percentage, that is most likely still more revenue than you're getting otherwise from these lifetime passholders if you had let them keep using them.



Most folks that bought them are most likely not using them - as they would be into their 80's, unless a parent bought them for a child.  The Slutzky family offered them for only a short time over 50 years ago.


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## cdskier (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> You're only looking at the full pass.
> 
> Senior and mid-week passes are much cheaper. But Vail doesn't offer either.
> 
> But your point on no alternative is right on.



True, although Platty doesn't have a mid-week pass either 8) (But yes, the other resorts do and Senior passes would be cheaper as well which one would think many of the lifetime passholders probably qualify for. On the flip side though, an Epic pass would give them access to a lot more than just a single resort if they were feeling adventurous).  I don't quite understand why Vail doesn't have any Senior pricing for the Epic Pass, but maybe one day they will reconsider that. I always found that strange.


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## catskillman (Aug 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I don't think it is as simple as "well I'll just take my business elsewhere then". Let's look at Hunter. What other options are there in that same general area? Windham, Belleayre, and Platty. If you're a Hunter lifetime passholder, would you be happy at any of those other resorts? A Platty pass would cost you about the same as an Epic Local pass (and get you a far shorter and less reliable season). I love Platty's terrain but personally would have a hard time justifying the cost of their pass. A Windham pass would cost substantially more than an Epic local pass (nearly double) and I'd say the terrain is nowhere near what Hunter offers. A Belleayre standalone pass that doesn't include Gore or WF would be cheaper than an Epic Local and would probably be the best alternative for someone in that scenario. I happen to love Belleayre, but would Hunter lifetime passholders that have skied there for ages feel the same way? Then there's also the real-estate factor to consider. If you had a lifetime pass to Hunter and made that your home mountain, did that mean you also had property in the area? Some people may have just been day-tripping, but I'd have to imagine some are also local property owners. Now if you lose your lifetime pass and decide to spend money to ski somewhere else, you'll also have to factor in driving to that other mountain every time you want to ski. If you genuinely liked Hunter, going somewhere else seems a lot like cutting off your nose to spite your face. So in conclusion, I don't buy the argument that most (or even many) of the lifetime passholders are going to just go elsewhere. Sure they may complain, but I don't know that matters enough to negatively impact the bottom line.
> 
> Overall though I still think anyone that expects a lifetime pass to truly last forever even through ownership changes is a bit naive and unrealistic. You have to realize there's a risk that a future owner wouldn't honor your pass.


agree.  There are probably about 200 people involved, and they would all continue toski Hunter.  Location, familiarity and most of all they have ski buddies there!  

they can keep moaning, especially one cranky female who everyone has had enough of, but most of us have stopped listening long ago.  They just need to sit back and face reality.  What does Vail owe them?  Not a thing!!


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I don't think it is as simple as "well I'll just take my business elsewhere then".



My post was ambiguous.  I did not mean I wouldn't be surprised if _all of the lifetime pass-holders_ moved their business.  I meant that I would not be surprised if some lifetime pass-holders took _all of their family's business_ elsewhere.  I also wouldn't be surprised if some lifetime pass-holders just stopped skiing.  Given the small pool of lifetime pass-holders and the uncertainty about how they might react to losing their passes, I don't think it's worth it to a company like Vail to disavow the lifetime passes in the hope of making a handful of additional EPIC pass sales, if that.  It makes them look greedy and it will have zero meaningful impact on their bottom line.  Alternatively, if they honor the passes, they get a rep for being a company that takes its obligations seriously even if not legally required to do so.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I don't quite understand why Vail doesn't have any Senior pricing for the Epic Pass, but maybe one day they will reconsider that. I always found that strange.



I always found it strange that anyone would.  Mid-week passes makes sense to me, but I fail to see the rationale for subsidizing the cost of elderly people's skiing.


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## kbroderick (Aug 7, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I'm sure some of the Killington long timers can add/correct me on this, but I think the Killington situation was they were "bond passes" and that since they were issued as essentially an investment "bond" with a side perk of a season pass while the company was in existence, it was determined that at some point, where there was a full change in the ownership, and not just the original owners changing the name of the holding company, that the original agreement between the original owner and the bond investor lost legal status going forward, and thus the "requirement" to issue a season pass each year ended (Guessing some lawyers made enough trying to figure all this out to buy a lifetime of season passes for themselves ;-) )
> 
> Just an interesting topic to consider when all of the variables are considered.....



Sold passes represent a liability in accounting terms, whether it be an annual pass (and a one-season liability) or a "lifetime" pass (and thus a "lifetime" liability). Depending on how the contract between corporate overloads is structured, the new owner of a ski area may or may not acquire the liabilities along with the assets of the company. Whether or not the previous owner—who was a party to the contract that created the pass—is required to include honoring the pass liabilities as part of the sale terms would depend on the contract between the passholder and the owner at the time of that pass being sold.

IIRC, in the case of Killington, it was more complicated than just some number of locals skiing on lifetime passes; many of bond passes were transferrable on an annual basis, and some people had acquired a number of them and would sell them via classifieds/CL/word-of-mouth each year, basically in direct competition with the resort for season pass sales. That was further complicated by the possibility that the bond—and thus the right to use or sell the annual pass—could be sold, and there were some number of people who had bought them just before the ASC purchase of Killington and the subsequent drop in pass pricing. Those people generally didn't get the return they expected, because between the lower annual value and the suspension of the passes after Powdr came in, the long-term value of the "lifetime" pass became a lot less than expected prior to the ASC purchase. While it pissed off a lot of people, I can't blame Powdr for deciding that they had no interest in competing with a bunch of individual sellers for pass sales.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I always found it strange that anyone would. Mid-week passes makes sense to me, but I fail to see the rationale for subsidizing the cost of elderly people's skiing.


It's only "subsidizing" if the majority of those seniors will buy full pass had the senior pass no longer exist. 

Those old enough to qualify for the senior's pass, many are retired. So they'd be skiing mid-week mostly. By offering full benefit senior pass at discount, you're hoping to capture the family of those seniors. Without it, they may simply buy a midweek pass but go skiing with their family at random mountains that suits their younger member of the family better.

Does it make sense to offer mid-week, senior pass at additional discount? I can't find any justification for that.

But as Vail is not offering any midweek passes either. So it's an entirely different calculation.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> By offering full benefit senior pass at discount, you're hoping to capture the family of those seniors.



I am skeptical that many people make decisions on where to ski based on whether grandma and grandpa can get a cheap pass.  I am skeptical that even grandma and grandpa are making decisions on where to ski based on the availability of such passes.  By the time most people are eligible for these discounts, they already have strong preferences on where they ski based on other factors.  If I'm going to Killington for 50 or 60 years, have property and a ton of friends there, I'm not going to switch to Sugarbush because I can get a cheaper pass.  It's the same as cdskier's rationale for why Vail shouldn't worry about disavowing Hunter's lifetime passes.

My guess is that senior discounts kind of just happened at resorts because people are familiar with them from other contexts where senior discounts were intended to relieve financial burdens on people on fixed incomes who do not make significant demands on services (like senior discounts for bus and subway fare); as resort operators become larger, more sophisticated and focused on maximizing profits, they realize that they don't make economic sense and eliminate them.


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## EPB (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I am skeptical that many people make decisions on where to ski based on whether grandma and grandpa can get a cheap pass.  I am skeptical that even grandma and grandpa are making decisions on where to ski based on the availability of such passes.  By the time most people are eligible for these discounts, they already have strong preferences on where they ski based on other factors.  If I'm going to Killington for 50 or 60 years, have property and a ton of friends there, I'm not going to switch to Sugarbush because I can get a cheaper pass.  It's the same as cdskier's rationale for why Vail shouldn't worry about disavowing Hunter's lifetime passes.
> 
> My guess is that senior discounts kind of just happened at resorts because people are familiar with them from other contexts where senior discounts were intended to relieve financial burdens on people on fixed incomes who do not make significant demands on services (like senior discounts for bus and subway fare); as resort operators become larger, more sophisticated and focused on maximizing profits, they realize that they don't make economic sense and eliminate them.


Broadly, most "regulars" at any mountain have very high switching costs whether it is though property or socially. In my experience, most regulars are begrudgingly loyal to their home mountain when bad management of any stripe come to town.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I am skeptical that many people make decisions on where to ski based on whether grandma and grandpa can get a cheap pass.  I am skeptical that even grandma and grandpa are making decisions on where to ski based on the availability of such passes.  By the time most people are eligible for these discounts, they already have strong preferences on where they ski based on other factors.  If I'm going to Killington for 50 or 60 years, have property and a ton of friends there, I'm not going to switch to Sugarbush because I can get a cheaper pass.  It's the same as cdskier's rationale for why Vail shouldn't worry about disavowing Hunter's lifetime passes.
> 
> My guess is that senior discounts kind of just happened at resorts because people are familiar with them from other contexts where senior discounts were intended to relieve financial burdens on people on fixed incomes who do not make significant demands on services (like senior discounts for bus and subway fare); as resort operators become larger, more sophisticated and focused on maximizing profits, they realize that they don't make economic sense and eliminate them.



I agree with your first sentence...but then the rest I'm a bit mixed on. I don't think it is quite the same rationale. Seniors that need to be more conservative with their money are more likely to opt not to ski than to switch to another cheaper resort if there was no senior pricing. (So we agree switching to another resort isn't an overly likely scenario). Some would keep skiing if they could afford to do so at higher prices no doubt. But others would simply drop out of the sport and potentially even cash in and sell their ski area condo/home (or give/sell it to their kids or simply keep it and let their kids and their families use it and only ski a day or two here and there with them). I think senior pricing more-so came from the ski resorts looking at their own data and saying "what can we do to try to keep the older people as pass-holders".

Another way to look at the senior pricing is as a "thank you." There's a decent chance a senior skier at a resort has been a loyal customer of that resort for a long time. So as a thank you for being a long-time passholder, they offer them a discount.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Broadly, most "regulars" at any mountain have very high switching costs whether it is though property or socially. In my experience, most regulars are begrudgingly loyal to their home mountain when bad management of any stripe come to town.



Agreed.  And if you're the rare itinerant skier who is not a regular at any particular resort by the time you qualify for a discounted senior pass, you probably have other priorities that outweigh the savings from locking yourself into a particular pass.  All that being said, I will gladly accept any senior discounts that resorts want to throw at me if I still care about sliding down mountains on snow and ice when I reach 70.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Another way to look at the senior pricing is as a "thank you." There's a decent chance a senior skier at a resort has been a loyal customer of that resort for a long time. So as a thank you for being a long-time passholder, they offer them a discount.



I agree with this.  I see senior discounts as a nice hold-over from an era when the culture cared more about the elderly than profit.  I don't see Vail as likely to perpetuate that sentiment.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

[snip double post]


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## x10003q (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I am skeptical that many people make decisions on where to ski based on whether grandma and grandpa can get a cheap pass.  I am skeptical that even grandma and grandpa are making decisions on where to ski based on the availability of such passes.  By the time most people are eligible for these discounts, they already have strong preferences on where they ski based on other factors.  If I'm going to Killington for 50 or 60 years, have property and a ton of friends there, I'm not going to switch to Sugarbush because I can get a cheaper pass.  It's the same as cdskier's rationale for why Vail shouldn't worry about disavowing Hunter's lifetime passes.
> 
> My guess is that senior discounts kind of just happened at resorts because people are familiar with them from other contexts where senior discounts were intended to relieve financial burdens on people on fixed incomes who do not make significant demands on services (like senior discounts for bus and subway fare); as resort operators become larger, more sophisticated and focused on maximizing profits, they realize that they don't make economic sense and eliminate them.



I agree with this, plus - 
Senior passes come from a time when most seniors where done skiing. Decades ago, ski areas probably did not sell many senior passes. As more people regularly exercised over the last couple of decades, and health care has improved, more seniors are able to enjoy skiing for more years beyond retirement. When you add in the higher monetary demographics of skiers, ski area owners realized that seniors skiers had more money than the general population.

One thing that I have noticed when skiing mid-week in the East - lots of senior skiers show up at the opening bell and are gone by lunch. Many never spend a dime beyond the cost of the pass. The age requirement for senior passes has become older or has disappeared. Ski areas are smarter to give discounts to 20 somethings.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I am skeptical that even grandma and grandpa are making decisions on where to ski based on the availability of such passes. By the time most people are eligible for these discounts, they already have strong preferences on where they ski based on other factors. If I'm going to Killington for 50 or 60 years, have property and a ton of friends there, I'm not going to switch to Sugarbush because I can get a cheaper pass. It's the same as cdskier's rationale for why Vail shouldn't worry about disavowing Hunter's lifetime passes.


That describes one type of retirees. Those who had made the decision before they retire, had been skiing there much of their adult life, had probably had local social connection. They can't (won't) leave. 

But there're others who's been skiing all over northeast mountains. To them, each mountain has its pros and cons. They may own property not near ONE mountain, but in a town that has easy access to multiple mountains. Their cost of switching is not that high. 

(I happen to know one such retiree. Though for them, they're no longer skiing full days at all. So this may actually be a motivator to move to a smaller mountain instead)

Really, Epic pass's biggest advantage is the availability of multiple mountains. To the locals who doesn't travel to start with, they're the biggest losers when Vail buys their mountain. In the Cats, there's no real alternatives so I suspect the Hunter royalist will just have to suck it up. But in Vermont, the non-availability of midweek and senior pass could very well be driving some of the locals to explore other mountains nearby




> I am skeptical that many people make decisions on where to ski based on whether grandma and grandpa can get a cheap pass.


I don't think their thought process works that way. It's more likely grandpa had been skiing there all along and invites the grand kids. 

But if grandpa's pass is midweek only, grand kids may only gets invited in the summer.


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## cdskier (Aug 7, 2019)

x10003q said:


> The age requirement for senior passes has become older or has disappeared.



Perhaps that depends on the resort. Sugarbush just lowered the senior age a few years ago (my dad was happy as he was able to qualify earlier). My dad point blank asked Win about it one day when he ran into him. His reasoning was that they looked at the numbers, saw they didn't have a ton of pass-holders in the 65-69 range, so figured worst case lowering the age from 70 to 65 would cause them to maybe lose a few bucks if they didn't sell any additional passes, but more likely would potentially encourage more people in that age range to get passes resulting in an overall net benefit.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 7, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Given the small pool of lifetime pass-holders and the uncertainty about how they might react to losing their passes, I don't think it's worth it to a company like Vail to disavow the lifetime passes in the hope of making a handful of additional EPIC pass sales, if that.  It makes them look greedy and it will have zero meaningful impact on their bottom line.  Alternatively, if they honor the passes, they get a rep for being a company that takes its obligations seriously even if not legally required to do so.



This is the correct answer.  All the "analysis" going on in this thread is just overthinking a simple business decision by Vail that is tone-deaf at best.  And it comes from Katz.  He has an almost autistic-like laser focus on uniformity across brand that borders upon an irrational obsession with micromanagement.  As many have said, this decision will affect exceedingly-few persons, so it has zero financial significance, yet it will generate some level of negative press or attention (SEE: this thread).  But no matter, this decision had to be made, lest all the socks in the sock drawer were not organized left to right by ROYGBIV color with sock openings facing due north.


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## Domeskier (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> But there're others who's been skiing all over northeast mountains. To them, each mountain has its pros and cons. They may own property not near ONE mountain, but in a town that has easy access to multiple mountains. Their cost of switching is not that high.
> 
> (I happen to know one such retiree. Though for them, they're no longer skiing full days at all. So this may actually be a motivator to move to a smaller mountain instead)



True, but this type of retiree is probably just as hard to capture (unless it's by one of the major multi-passes).  If you like chasing storms and skiing a variety of mountains, you're probably already comfortable paying more for that experience than you would for a season pass to a single mountain.  Maybe the senior discount pushes you over the edge, but for every such senior skier, you might have five regulars who would be willing to pay full price for the pass.

I'm not saying that no senior skier is influenced by the availability of senior discounts - I'm sure many are; I'm just not wholly convinced that resorts make more money by offering them than by charging seniors full freight.  If senior discounts were obvious money-makers, I would expect Vail to be fully on board.


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## AdironRider (Aug 7, 2019)

This thread is jumping the shark. 

Literally no one is going to change their ski destination because some other guy they don't know lost his lifetime pass. Even if they do know the guy, they aren't going to change their ski destination. 

Outside of pointless debate on ski forums, this decision will have zero effect on Vail's bottom line other than increasing it by getting new passholders. Why? If someone loved a place to ski so much they bought a lifetime pass (which has proven over and over again to be the lifetime of the current ownership of the place), they aren't leaving.

In terms of senior discounts, they'll get over it also. Old men yelling at clouds and such. If you are out there skiing you can pay full freight just like the rest of us. 

You chase cheap skate customers you are going to make shitty revenue. Vail knows where their bread is buttered and it isn't by cheap skates who only ski where they get the best deal. If 20 bucks on a lift ticket is driving your commitment, you aren't worth the hassle compared to a customer that will bring literally thousands more.


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## mbedle (Aug 7, 2019)

I know they don't have anything yet on the east coast, but Vail does sell senior passes at other resorts. Maybe something will come to east coast after the sale.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I know they don't have anything yet on the east coast, but Vail does sell senior passes at other resorts. Maybe something will come to east coast after the sale.


Where?


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> You chase cheap skate customers you are going to make shitty revenue. Vail knows where their bread is buttered and it isn't by cheap skates who only ski where they get the best deal. If 20 bucks on a lift ticket is driving your commitment, you aren't worth the hassle compared to a customer that will bring literally thousands more.


Actually, I've always wondering about that. Why did Vail even offer the lower priced Epic Local pass? I (not being a "local" of the west) would have opened up my wallet for the full Epic pass! 

Every year, I contemplated buying the full of either Ikon or Epic. But so far had mostly gone with the cheap Local version. Had that version not even exist, they would have gotten $300 extra out of me!


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## mbedle (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> Where?



Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood, Afton Alps and Mt Brigton.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Heavenly, Northstar, Kirkwood, Afton Alps and Mt Brigton.


I see. I forgot about those. Basically local mountain passes that don't have "free" access to the rest of the Vail resorts. (**)

They may indeed bring those over to the northeast. 


(**) 
(those 50% discount are really only symbolic. With half price Park City costing ~$90, you'll be buying a "real" Epic pass at the tune of $600 if you even have an inkling of skiing elsewhere!)


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## drjeff (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, I've always wondering about that. Why did Vail even offer the lower priced Epic Local pass? I (not being a "local" of the west) would have opened up my wallet for the full Epic pass!
> 
> Every year, I contemplated buying the full of either Ikon or Epic. But so far had mostly gone with the cheap Local version. Had that version not even exist, they would have gotten $300 extra out of me!



To draw and lock more people into the Vail resorts network. Give them a taste of what their resort portfolio offers, and if folks so choose, they'll upgrade at some point to the full Epic, with less restrictions and go to one of the resorts, when they want, that the full Epic allows them to do over the Epic local. 

Also helps in a way with crowd management, since if someone wants to go to Vail or Whistler or Park City for example over one of the 3 big Holiday periods (X-mas/New Years week, MLK Weekend and Presidents Week) they're going to buy the full Epic, if someone doesn't want to go to an Epic resort during a time that it's blacked out, then they will get the local. They still have an Epic product hanging off their coat, and Vail Resorts is in essence helping to limit some of the crowds that would likely hit up their restricted resorts during traditionally the busiest times of the season.


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## AdironRider (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, I've always wondering about that. Why did Vail even offer the lower priced Epic Local pass? I (not being a "local" of the west) would have opened up my wallet for the full Epic pass!
> 
> Every year, I contemplated buying the full of either Ikon or Epic. But so far had mostly gone with the cheap Local version. Had that version not even exist, they would have gotten $300 extra out of me!



Well they got the better part of 700 bucks out of you for one, just to start.  

Plus you need to travel and pay for food, lodging and incidentals at one of their western properties or Stowe. Not exactly cheap ya know.

Vail is basically guaranteeing themselves over a g in revenue just from you, before you even get in the liftline.


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Also helps in a way with crowd management, since if someone wants to go to Vail or Whistler or Park City for example over one of the 3 big Holiday periods (X-mas/New Years week, MLK Weekend and Presidents Week) they're going to buy the full Epic, if someone doesn't want to go to an Epic resort during a time that it's blacked out, then they will get the local. They still have an Epic product hanging off their coat, and Vail Resorts is in essence helping to limit some of the crowds that would likely hit up their restricted resorts during traditionally the busiest times of the season.


But that would argue FOR offering midweek passes, which neither do. 

I almost never ski Saturdays. Too crowded to start with. Plus almost none of my ski companions at the destination ski Saturdays. (they're local so they're more choosy. I do the same at home here, rarely ski Saturdays) I either go x-c skiing with them (if they xc ski). Or in some cases, I was just travelling TO the destination on Saturday. 

Had there been a cheaper midweek version of both Epic & Ikon, I probably would get BOTH (instead of "rotating" from 1 year to the next). Same with some of my friends.


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## drjeff (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> But that would argue FOR offering midweek passes, which neither do.
> 
> I almost never ski Saturdays. Too crowded to start with. Plus almost none of my ski companions at the destination ski Saturdays. (they're local so they're more choosy. I do the same at home here, rarely ski Saturdays) I either go x-c skiing with them (if they xc ski). Or in some cases, I was just travelling TO the destination on Saturday.
> 
> Had there been a cheaper midweek version of both Epic & Ikon, I probably would get BOTH (instead of "rotating" from 1 year to the next). Same with some of my friends.



Vail Resorts has said that one of their goals is to simplify their pass offerings. Hence why you have the full Epic and the Epic local, and then essentially a few glorified multi-day ticket Epic offerings. True they do still have a very few select local geographic region passes, but their goal is to give the consumer a couple of pass product options, with "benefits" they feel are very attractive for the masses, and not end up with a myriad of pass product options that will likely confuse some consumers as to what is "best" for them. Is this the best way? Not sure..... Does is sell them an large number of Epic pass products? Certainly.  And based on the success of their Epic product, and the leadership philosophy for Vail Resorts that Rob Katz has, I doubt that we'll be seeing them start to "micro pass product" their offerings to cater to what is likely a very small percentage of their customers.

Peak resorts did something similar a few seasons ago, where they streamlined their offerings and their pass sales, above and beyond what they'd expect to see just through the additional resort acquisitions and their customer bases they made, went up. Was everyone happy with the streamlining? Nope. Were more people happy and unhappy with the streamlining? The sales volume sure seems to indicate that. Bottom line is that the pass product market is an evolving entity. It seems to be moving in a direction that has more resorts available on one pass, with less "option levels."  They seem to be selling more passes. So chances are that some people will see a change in what pass type they have available to them, and not everyone welcomes or embraces change


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## abc (Aug 7, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *Peak resorts did something similar a few seasons ago, where they streamlined their offerings and their pass sales, above and beyond what they'd expect to see just through the additional resort acquisitions and their customer bases they made, went up*. Was everyone happy with the streamlining? Nope. Were more people happy and unhappy with the streamlining? The sales volume sure seems to indicate that. Bottom line is that the pass product market is an evolving entity. It seems to be moving in a direction that has more resorts available on one pass, with less "option levels."  They seem to be selling more passes. So chances are that some people will see a change in what pass type they have available to them, and not everyone welcomes or embraces change


But one wonders whether the increase pass sale ("above and beyond what they'd expect...") were due to more mountains in the pass, or "streamlined pass options"? 

I have no doubt it's working for Peaks and Vail. I'm just not sure it's working as well as it could. $600 is a fair bit of money for many. Don't know how many only buy every other year (like me), how many didn't buy at all (went to MCP, as one of my colleague). A midweek only, or blackout Saturday (as in the Tahoe Value pass) pass at the high $400 may actually get them more passes sale to offset the lower per pass take...


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## mbedle (Aug 7, 2019)

abc said:


> But one wonders whether the increase pass sale ("above and beyond what they'd expect...") were due to more mountains in the pass, or "streamlined pass options"?
> 
> I have no doubt it's working for Peaks and Vail. I'm just not sure it's working as well as it could. $600 is a fair bit of money for many. Don't know how many only buy every other year (like me), how many didn't buy at all (went to MCP, as one of my colleague). A midweek only, or blackout Saturday (as in the Tahoe Value pass) pass at the high $400 may actually get them more passes sale to offset the lower per pass take...



So what do you do as far as skiing on years you don't purchase a pass?


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## cdskier (Aug 7, 2019)

mbedle said:


> So what do you do as far as skiing on years you don't purchase a pass?



One of abc's earlier posts mentioned that she rotates between Epic and Ikon. So I think her comment in this case was specifically saying she doesn't buy Epic every year, not that she doesn't get some sort of pass every year.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 8, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, I've always wondering about that. Why did Vail even offer the lower priced Epic Local pass? I (not being a "local" of the west) would have opened up my wallet for the full Epic pass!
> 
> Every year, I contemplated buying the full of either Ikon or Epic. But so far had mostly gone with the cheap Local version. Had that version not even exist, they would have gotten $300 extra out of me!


I think the key word here is "local". 

It's a recognition of who typically will be buying the pass and where they are going to use it.  It gives full access to lesser properties, often more locals areas and a taste of the premium resorts. 

I bought my Peak pass at an early bird rate of $629.  I'll pay the differential this season to upgrade to the local, but not the full Epic.  I just don't see myself getting to Stowe more than 5 times. I have no desire to go there on holidays.  I might grab a day or two at Sunapee. Less likely Okemo. I won't be taking a Western trip for several years due to having a 4 year old and a 9 month old.  So, whatever the pass gets me out west really is of no appreciation. 

Now say next year they only offer full Epic.  If I'm looking at a grand for that, I might consider a Cannon Pass ($575) and maybe some ski club day tickets to fill out the difference with some variety.  I'm sure all of the feeder hill skiers would be even less inclined to go with the full Epic.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Domeskier (Aug 8, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> This thread is jumping the shark.
> 
> Literally no one is going to change their ski destination because some other guy they don't know lost his lifetime pass. Even if they do know the guy, they aren't going to change their ski destination.
> 
> Outside of pointless debate on ski forums, this decision will have zero effect on Vail's bottom line other than increasing it by getting new passholders. Why? If someone loved a place to ski so much they bought a lifetime pass (which has proven over and over again to be the lifetime of the current ownership of the place), they aren't leaving.



Vail has a reputation among a small but vocal minority as an evil corporate overlord that is killing the ski industry with its near-sighted pursuit of short-term profits.  I have no strong opinion on whether that is deserved or not.  But a move like this, where the gains to Vail are immaterial, only reinforces that reputation and gives ammunition to its critics.


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## abc (Aug 8, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a recognition of who typically will be buying the pass and where they are going to use it.  It gives full access to lesser properties, often more locals areas and a taste of the premium resorts.


But as you pointed out, big chunk of its buyers don't care much about the "premium resorts". They either can't/won't travel or "been there, done that". 

The more I hear from people who aren't buying, the more I think a lower priced midweek pass would have gotten Vail quite a bit more pass sale. Granted, some of the current "Local" pass holder might "downgrade". But those are probably the minority. 

Anyway, this is just idle speculation for fun. I'm not the sales manager of Vail. They do what they do base on what THEY think is good, not what I think is good.


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## Newpylong (Aug 8, 2019)

I believe Vail has not done their due diligence in regards to pass holder demographics/statistics on the mountains they acquired. They have attempted to implement their existing sales model in the East, with much different demographics and smaller destinations. I believe there is a large portion of former Peak pass holders that have no interest in going out West, let alone visiting other mountains in the East several times. They are not going to see the value add in the Epic - they want a local pass and as such, they will jump ship if there are alternatives.


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## Dickc (Aug 8, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I believe Vail has not done their due diligence in regards to pass holder demographics/statistics on the mountains they acquired. They have attempted to implement their existing sales model in the East, with much different demographics and smaller destinations. I believe there is a large portion of former Peak pass holders that have no interest in going out West, let alone visiting other mountains in the East several times. They are not going to see the value add in the Epic - they want a local pass and as such, they will jump ship if there are alternatives.


THIS!  I will not be going out west.  I might SOMETIME go out there, but my wife does not ski, so any trip out there must encompass more than skiing.  I do make day trips of three hours in New England without blinking an eyebrow.  I looked at the Epic local Vs. the Ikon, and went with Ikon.  Ikon offered more New England destinations than the Epic at the time, and I am a bit particular to skiing some of the Boyne Resorts.  Next year?  That jury is still out and I will look at what I wish to do when spring rolls around.  Epic is more enticing now with the increase in New England destinations.  Sunapee is less than two hours, but others are 2.5 to 3. From me.  I will have to look more closely, and perhaps buy one of Boyne's three packs to cover my Boyne trips.  Loon is an easy 2 hour 10 minute drive, and I can ski midweek now that I have retired.


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## abc (Aug 8, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I believe Vail has not done their due diligence in regards to pass holder demographics/statistics on the mountains they acquired. They have attempted to implement their existing sales model in the East, with much different demographics and smaller destinations. I believe there is a large portion of former Peak pass holders that have no interest in going out West, let alone visiting other mountains in the East several times. They are not going to see the value add in the Epic - they want a local pass and as such, they will jump ship if there are alternatives.


Unless, of course, perhaps Vail don't care about those people jumping ship. 

The hallmark of Vail resorts are all mountains with high percentage of intermediate terrain but high end lodging/food. That's obviously a more profitable demographic than hardcore advance skiers with little spending money, or retirees who're wedded to their home mountains but don't even buy a drink, much less lunch!


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## AdironRider (Aug 8, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I believe Vail has not done their due diligence in regards to pass holder demographics/statistics on the mountains they acquired. They have attempted to implement their existing sales model in the East, with much different demographics and smaller destinations. I believe there is a large portion of former Peak pass holders that have no interest in going out West, let alone visiting other mountains in the East several times. They are not going to see the value add in the Epic - they want a local pass and as such, they will jump ship if there are alternatives.




Now that is funny. Vail is just shooting from the hip? Right......


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## abc (Aug 8, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Now that is funny. Vail is just shooting from the hip? Right......


Wouldn't be the first time.


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## mbedle (Aug 8, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Now that is funny. Vail is just shooting from the hip? Right......



I got to agree with you on that one. Vail absolutely knows before they purchased the resorts exactly how many Triple Peaks and Peak Resort pass holders, and to some extent daily pass purchasers, have travel out west to ski their resorts (including which resort they typical ski at on the east cost and which resort they visited out west). A simple cross check of address and name databases would clearly indicate how many east coast pass holders have visit each Vail resort out west.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I got to agree with you on that one.* Vail absolutely knows before they purchased the resorts exactly how many Triple Peaks and Peak Resort pass holders, and to some extent daily pass purchasers, have travel out west to ski their resorts* (including which resort they typical ski at on the east cost and which resort they visited out west). *A simple cross check of address and name databases would clearly indicate how many east coast pass holders have visit each Vail resort out west.*



I agree with AdironRider that Vail Resorts certainly did not make this acquisition without its' fair share of due diligence, but that's not to say that it wasnt a mistake, only time will tell.   However, I do not believe that Peak Resorts would share its' customer profile databank with Vail as a part of that due diligence.


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## drjeff (Aug 8, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I agree with AdironRider that Vail Resorts certainly did not make this acquisition without its' fair share of due diligence, but that's not to say that it wasnt a mistake, only time will tell.   However, I do not believe that Peak Resorts would share its' customer profile databank with Vail as a part of that due diligence.



I'm guessing that this is also a case where Vail saw a greater upside for their company in some of the Peak resorts than others, and in an "ideal" world in Vail's eyes, the deal wouldn't of included all of the Peak properties.


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## AdironRider (Aug 8, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I'm guessing that this is also a case where Vail saw a greater upside for their company in some of the Peak resorts than others, and in an "ideal" world in Vail's eyes, the deal wouldn't of included all of the Peak properties.



Outside of Wildcat, I don't really see how all of Peaks properties don't fit exactly into Vail's business plan. 

This isn't a miscalculation at all. While some properties certainly are more attractive than others (Mt Snow notably) Peaks was tailor made for a takeover by Vail. Their CEO literally just said so and they now own basically every mountain close to major population centers that get snow in the winter.


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## drjeff (Aug 8, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Outside of Wildcat, I don't really see how all of Peaks properties don't fit exactly into Vail's business plan.
> 
> This isn't a miscalculation at all. While some properties certainly are more attractive than others (Mt Snow notably) Peaks was tailor made for a takeover by Vail. Their CEO literally just said so and they now own basically every mountain close to major population centers that get snow in the winter.



Generally agree. Crotched seems to be a bit outside of other resorts Vail has bought in the past, and one might make the argument that a few of their mid western properties are in redundant geographical areas.  Overall, I'm guessing that over a dozen of the properties that Peak had acquired looked like an attractive fit to the Vail folks and their model of expansion/acquisition


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## mbedle (Aug 8, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I agree with AdironRider that Vail Resorts certainly did not make this acquisition without its' fair share of due diligence, but that's not to say that it wasnt a mistake, only time will tell.   However, I do not believe that Peak Resorts would share its' customer profile databank with Vail as a part of that due diligence.



Prior to finalizing the sale this fall, they absolutely shared it. Prior to signing the agreement to buy out Peaks, maybe not. Although Vail might have required it in order to even discuss a potential buyout. It is possible that right now Vail is evaluating that data to determine what type of passes they are going to have on the east coast. If the data they have indicates a strong regional area the skiers typically don't ski anywhere else, they might offer something similar to the Epic Summit Value or Tahoe Local Passes.  I think that people need to understand that Vail does not only sell Epic Pass and Epic Local - they actual have 13 different types of passes. Adding a couple of more on the east coast would not be unreasonable.

Edit - they actually have far more than just 13 different passes.


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## Quietman (Aug 8, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Generally agree. Crotched seems to be a bit outside of other resorts Vail has bought in the past, and one might make the argument that a few of their mid western properties are in redundant geographical areas.



They offer a Keystone only pass for $369, I'm  really hoping that they do something for Crotched!


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Prior to finalizing the sale this fall, they absolutely shared it. *Prior to signing the agreement to buy out Peaks, maybe not. *



I thought that's what you were talking about?  It is what I was referring to.


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## 2Planker (Aug 8, 2019)

Quietman said:


> They offer a Keystone only pass for $369, I'm  really hoping that they do something for Crotched!



I was wondering if there would be a cheap Wildcat pass...
 or maybe a Crotched, Attitash, Wildcat Pass


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## FBGM (Aug 8, 2019)

So did any management quit or get the ax yet? I’d just quite and save the humility of the pink slip.


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## mbedle (Aug 9, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I thought that's what you were talking about?  It is what I was referring to.



Good point and I wasn't clear.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 9, 2019)

FBGM said:


> So did any management quit or get the ax yet? I’d just quite and save the humility of the pink slip.



Seems like solid advice for your message boarding...


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## abc (Aug 9, 2019)

”message boarding...”

you just created a new verb!


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 9, 2019)

:lol::lol::lol:


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## Jully (Aug 9, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Outside of Wildcat, I don't really see how all of Peaks properties don't fit exactly into Vail's business plan.
> 
> This isn't a miscalculation at all. While some properties certainly are more attractive than others (Mt Snow notably) Peaks was tailor made for a takeover by Vail. Their CEO literally just said so and they now own basically every mountain close to major population centers that get snow in the winter.



I feel like Attitash, Wildcat, and Crotched all do not fit in super well. Crotched is a decent ways away from the population center and in the absolute middle of nowhere and Attitash is an aged resort in a community (MWV) that is less upscale than Stowe and other "destinations."

People from the mid Atlantic would fly to Burlington to ski Stowe, I don't think anyone would fly to Manchester/Portland to ski the MWV. Attitash is barely considered a regional powerhouse these days.

Mt. Snow and Hunter fit them to a T though, as does almost every midwestern/midatlantic property. 

Truly terrifying that in almost every major city from DC to Boston to Cleveland to St. Louis to Minneapolis is now within day trip range of a Vail owned ski area.


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## EPB (Aug 9, 2019)

Jully said:


> I feel like Attitash, Wildcat, and Crotched all do not fit in super well. Crotched is a decent ways away from the population center and in the absolute middle of nowhere and Attitash is an aged resort in a community (MWV) that is less upscale than Stowe and other "destinations."
> 
> People from the mid Atlantic would fly to Burlington to ski Stowe, I don't think anyone would fly to Manchester/Portland to ski the MWV. Attitash is barely considered a regional powerhouse these days.
> 
> ...


Here are some reasons the NH properties make sense. Of course, it's entirely possible that they don't love the NH mountains, but don't have an alternative (I.e they could buy all or nothing). I think there's plenty of reason to believe Vail is planning to make good use of the NH properties, though.

-Vail is buying another built-in Boston-area passholder base (Attitash/Wildcat passholders) that they can upsell into more expensive passes and trips out west. All those passholders now all have incentive to take their Western trips to Vail resorts. I suspect this demographic skews more northeasterly than the Okemo/Stowe crowd (think North Shore vs. Metro West, in general - not the same exact demographic).

-Capacity. The other northeastern Vail options were all crowded before Vail. Even if you assumed Vail could buy just Snow and Hunter, adding more Epic passholders to the Boston and NYC metros would only make Sunapee, Okemo and Stowe more crowded. The new NH acreage helps mitigate this.

-MWV is a more accessible vacation option for Boston-area people that might want to hit Crotched/Sunapee for a few day trips a year and spend a vacation week in a resort town. It only takes one planned weekish long trip before the pass could justify itself. MWV probably has the most going on of any ski town in the east. Granted, not nearly as posh as Stowe.

-Crotched is a local feeder hill that is .5 hr closer than Sunapee to anyone who lives west of route 3 in MA (everyone between Lowell and Worcester, for example). Crotched is only 90 mins from Worcester. In this way, Crotched can serve more like the Midwestern hills to a swath of Boston/495 area skiers.

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## thetrailboss (Aug 9, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Here are some reasons the NH properties make sense. Of course, it's entirely possible that they don't love the NH mountains, but don't have an alternative (I.e they could buy all or nothing). I think there's plenty of reason to believe Vail is planning to make good use of the NH properties, though.
> 
> -Vail is buying another built-in Boston-area passholder base (Attitash/Wildcat passholders) that they can upsell into more expensive passes and trips out west. All those passholders now all have incentive to take their Western trips to Vail resorts. I suspect this demographic skews more northeasterly than the Okemo/Stowe crowd (think North Shore vs. Metro West, in general - not the same exact demographic).
> 
> ...



Honestly, I am VERY interested to see what Vail does with its newly purchased NH properties.  As someone previously said, they now own FOUR major resorts in NH. ASC had to divest when it had control of three (maybe four--Cranmore, Attitash, WV, and at least part of Loon IIRC).  I wonder if they will have to spin off one or two and which ones they spin off.  

NH's ski market is very different from Maine or Vermont in that there are a fair number of larger "day" areas as opposed to destination resorts.  Vail now has three areas I might consider to be day areas (Crotched, Sunapee, maybe Wildcat) and one "destination" resort (Attitash).  Big consideration for me is the amount of folks staying onsite in lodging to make it a "destination" area.  Although, admittedly, Wildcat doesn't really fit into a day or a destination area because it has no real onsite lodging but is pretty far from the major cities.  

And, once again, we are all shown that Vail is not too eager to buy a place that needs a lot of work to reopen (such as Saddleback) and is more inclined to go with established brands (Stowe, Triple Peaks, Peaks Resorts).  Anyone think that Boyne will cash out?  Sugarbush (Win is getting old)?


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## AdironRider (Aug 9, 2019)

Jully said:


> I feel like Attitash, Wildcat, and Crotched all do not fit in super well. Crotched is a decent ways away from the population center and in the absolute middle of nowhere and Attitash is an aged resort in a community (MWV) that is less upscale than Stowe and other "destinations."
> 
> People from the mid Atlantic would fly to Burlington to ski Stowe, I don't think anyone would fly to Manchester/Portland to ski the MWV. Attitash is barely considered a regional powerhouse these days.
> 
> ...



Attitash is barely over an hour from Seacoast NH, which in case you haven't looked lately, has got a whole grip of money. Exeter, Rye, Portsmouth, Hampton, all have high incomes/property values and have large populations of outdoor enthusiasts. 

Barely anyone flies into Burlington to ski Stowe. It is cheaper and easier to fly out West.


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## Smellytele (Aug 9, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Attitash is barely over an hour from Seacoast NH, which in case you haven't looked lately, has got a whole grip of money. Exeter, Rye, Portsmouth, Hampton, all have high incomes/property values and have large populations of outdoor enthusiasts.
> 
> Barely anyone flies into Burlington to ski Stowe. It is cheaper and easier to fly out West.



Wildcat is only 15 minutes further than Attitash. North Conway area has a lot of rental beds as well.


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## AdironRider (Aug 9, 2019)

Wildcat doesn't really have the infastructure for Vail to make any money on though. Despite Attitash being the Hampton Beach of skiing, they have a ton of activities Vail can make money on.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2019)

If by barely over an hour you mean 1:45, I'd agree with you. My best time from Newmarket to Attitash is 1:35. Wildcat 1:50.  More commonly it's 1:45 and 2 respectively.   I tend to drive 10 to 15 mph over the speed limit whenever possible on 16, which is next to never due to slow pokes.  Portsmouth would only be 10-15 minutes closer.  Hampton area about the same as Newmarket. 

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## cdskier (Aug 9, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> And, once again, we are all shown that Vail is not too eager to buy a place that needs a lot of work to reopen (such as Saddleback) and is more inclined to go with established brands (Stowe, Triple Peaks, Peaks Resorts).  Anyone think that Boyne will cash out?  Sugarbush (Win is getting old)?



As long as Win can keep skiing 100+ days a season, he's not letting Sugarbush go. Don't expect Sugarbush to be bought out by any large company any time soon.


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## AdironRider (Aug 9, 2019)

I always thought driving up 108 to 16 took longer than 15 minutes, but it has been a hot minute. I was mores referencing Portsmouth though where the most money is now. 

Without giving it away, you take the shortcut around N Conway also right for Attitash? I used to be able to boogie and get there from my place in Exeter in about 1:30, but that was always super early in the morning. Coming back did take longer.

Either way, those are short drive times relatively for EC skiing.


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## slatham (Aug 9, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> And, once again, we are all shown that Vail is not too eager to buy a place that needs a lot of work to reopen (such as Saddleback) and is more inclined to go with established brands (Stowe, Triple Peaks, Peaks Resorts).  Anyone think that Boyne will cash out?  Sugarbush (Win is getting old)?



Win is a young 70 and still very much in the thick of running Sugarbush and skiing 100+ days. He and his family have a lot of history that pre-dates by decades his ownership. I would expect a well thought out “passing of the baton” to a like minded person/group/family member rather than a cash out to Vail. IMHO.


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## RichT (Aug 9, 2019)

I'd buy a "Hunter only" pass. heck "Hunter only weekday pass" even better!!! Getting ready to retire looking forward to skiing weekdays


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## Newpylong (Aug 9, 2019)

I also don't see Sugarbush making any moves. Win loves where he is at, and would only sell to a like minded group.

Attitash could "fit" in to the classic Vail experience, but it is going to take some capital to get it there. The place was run down under ASC and Peak has not done much to reverse it.

Not sure if they will have to divest but if so, I think it would be the Cat or Crotched before Attitash.


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## Jully (Aug 9, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> I always thought driving up 108 to 16 took longer than 15 minutes, but it has been a hot minute. I was mores referencing Portsmouth though where the most money is now.
> 
> Without giving it away, you take the shortcut around N Conway also right for Attitash? I used to be able to boogie and get there from my place in Exeter in about 1:30, but that was always super early in the morning. Coming back did take longer.
> 
> Either way, those are short drive times relatively for EC skiing.



Regardless of how you slice the drive time from anywhere in NE, Attitash is quite different than any area VR owned previously. It is a large, but primarily day trip oriented mountain. That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea for Vail invest here and run Attitash, but it is different and who is to say if Vail plans on keeping them or not.

People legit to fly to BTV and ski Stowe. It is stupid, and nothing compared to the traffic DEN gets, but it is very much a thing. Hell there are private airlines and semi-private airlines flying into smaller airstrips that do get use in the winter. Stowe has MONEY, the Mountain Washington Valley (or Portsmouth NH) does not come close in that regard.

All that said it would be nice if VR did invest a bit more in the now very dated amenities of the resort at Attitash. It seems like a waste of space right now that has potential. They should also groom Attitash less...


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## Jully (Aug 9, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I also don't see Sugarbush making any moves. Win loves where he is at, and would only sell to a like minded group.
> 
> Attitash could "fit" in to the classic Vail experience, but it is going to take some capital to get it there. The place was run down under ASC and Peak has not done much to reverse it.
> 
> Not sure if they will have to divest but if so, I think it would be the Cat or Crotched before Attitash.



Didn't see this before I posted. Absolutely agree that Attitash could fit and I personally hope it does fit in as it means there will be investment in the place.

Definitely see Wildcat going first. Crotched I could see being more in the vision than Attitash simply because Vail might not want to deal with the lifts and deferred maintenance at Attitash. I think it was you who was talking about the problems with the snowmaking system nevermind the lift situation.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> I always thought driving up 108 to 16 took longer than 15 minutes, but it has been a hot minute. I was mores referencing Portsmouth though where the most money is now.
> 
> Without giving it away, you take the shortcut around N Conway also right for Attitash? I used to be able to boogie and get there from my place in Exeter in about 1:30, but that was always super early in the morning. Coming back did take longer.
> 
> Either way, those are short drive times relatively for EC skiing.


Yes, taking the short cut.  It's 20 minutes to get exit 8 on 16 in Dover for me. A little less actually.  It's probably about ten minutes from the Portsmouth traffic circle there.  

Lots more traffic on 16 these days compared to when you lived back here.  Dover and Rochester blowing up as Portsmouth is unattainable basically for family incomes sub $250k.  

And everywhere in the area is getting pricey.  There's no new construction under $400k in Newmarket. Even recent new condos going for that. Single families more like $475+ for 2k square feet.  Speaking of Dover, I just saw an article on new apartments in Dover downtown for $2400/month for two bedrooms, 1 parking spot and no private  outdoor space / balcony. 

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## sull1102 (Aug 9, 2019)

I wonder if anyone would make a run at Attitash, Wildcat, Crotched as it's own little cluster like Booth Creek did years ago with the Threedom Pass and WV, Loon, and Cranmore. 

Actually, wasn't WV considered close to for sale for a long time with the Sununu family looking to exit?

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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2019)

I think Vail either keeps both Attitash and Wildcat or dumps them both and here's why.

A.  Wildcat is the most efficient and inexpensive to run 2k mountain in New England save for MRG.  80% of the year you can run it on two chairs and a carpet.  It only has one base lodge and requires minimal snowmaking and grooming. 

B. Attitash isn't a good enough mountain to stand on its own in the MWV.  There is a massive amount of second home owners in the Valley.  If I'm your typical vacation home ski family who digs mainly groomers and my pass choices are the Superpass with Bretton Woods, Cranmore and even Cannon in reasonable range or just Attitash on Epic with no other options in reasonable commute; I'm easily going Superpass unless I have a western trip planned.  Maybe even if I do have western trip planned.  So, if they divest Wildcat, Attitash is gonna lose a big chunk of visits to the Superpass plus probably 50+% of Cat skiers will just stay skiing at Cat and not go with an Attitash Epic pass.  

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## EPB (Aug 9, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Honestly, I am VERY interested to see what Vail does with its newly purchased NH properties.  As someone previously said, they now own FOUR major resorts in NH. ASC had to divest when it had control of three (maybe four--Cranmore, Attitash, WV, and at least part of Loon IIRC).  I wonder if they will have to spin off one or two and which ones they spin off.
> 
> NH's ski market is very different from Maine or Vermont in that there are a fair number of larger "day" areas as opposed to destination resorts.  Vail now has three areas I might consider to be day areas (Crotched, Sunapee, maybe Wildcat) and one "destination" resort (Attitash).  Big consideration for me is the amount of folks staying onsite in lodging to make it a "destination" area.  Although, admittedly, Wildcat doesn't really fit into a day or a destination area because it has no real onsite lodging but is pretty far from the major cities.
> 
> And, once again, we are all shown that Vail is not too eager to buy a place that needs a lot of work to reopen (such as Saddleback) and is more inclined to go with established brands (Stowe, Triple Peaks, Peaks Resorts).  Anyone think that Boyne will cash out?  Sugarbush (Win is getting old)?


Me too. Don't forget they now own three big boys in VT, too. That could potentially be a problem, too. I'd be interested to make sense of the logic used in the antitrust case back then to see what it could portend this time around. 

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2019)

Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true.   Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.


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## EPB (Aug 9, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I think Vail either keeps both Attitash and Wildcat or dumps them both and here's why.
> 
> A.  Wildcat is the most efficient and inexpensive to run 2k mountain in New England save for MRG.  80% of the year you can run it on two chairs and a carpet.  It only has one base lodge and requires minimal snowmaking and grooming.
> 
> ...


Totally with you on A. 

Re B: do you really think there are enough people that would actually make good use of the super pass with second homes in the MWV? The only customer archetypes I could see using it are bachelor nomads and retired people. With a family, it would be a lot to ask to drive to your second home then drive to BW or Cannon with any regularity. 

I've been through this exercise before because I've thought about whether skiing Cannon more often would make sense. The only concussion I could draw is that I'd need to be based in Lincoln/N. Woodstock to pull it off. If you're in NoCo, BW and Cannon become 40 and 60ish minute hikes. If you're near Attitash, you can get that down to 25 and 45ish, but in that case, you're a stone's throw from Attitash, so why ski Cranmore, BW and Cannon?

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## cdskier (Aug 9, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true.   Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.



Hah. So true!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Totally with you on A.
> 
> Re B: do you really think there are enough people that would actually make good use of the super pass with second homes in the MWV? The only customer archetypes I could see using it are bachelor nomads and retired people. With a family, it would be a lot to ask to drive to your second home then drive to BW or Cannon with any regularity.
> 
> ...


3 vs 1.  

Personally, if it was me; I'd be one of the folks who just stayed at Wildcat.  It's my favorite overall skiing experience in New England.  Unless Vail really screws the place up, I pretty much always see myself having a pass there provided my primary residence remains on the NH Seacoast.

But, if I was someone who preferred a more manicured skiing experience I'd take the BW, Cranmore and Cannon access over just Attitash even recognizing two out of three would have significantly longer commutes.  Cannon is a much better better mountain than Attitash IMO. Even though BW is pretty flat, I actually think it's a better skiing experience than Attitash due to having vastly more glades and far more/better snow.  

So given the scenario, I'd see myself skiing Cranmore on Saturdays when conditions weren't great and I want something convenient. Bretton Woods on Saturdays that the conditions were good; and then most Sundays I'd hit Cannon on my way South out of town. 

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## Edd (Aug 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Even though BW is pretty flat, I actually think it's a better skiing experience than Attitash due to having vastly more glades and far more/better snow.



Truth. Also, even from North Conway proper, the BW drive is a piece of cake. The Cannon drive feels longer than it actually is, somehow.


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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

Edd said:


> Truth. Also, even from North Conway proper, the BW drive is a piece of cake. The Cannon drive feels longer than it actually is, somehow.


I hear what you guys are saying, I just can't imagine getting to Cannon with any regularity from MWV after already driving there from down south most weekends in the winter. Cannon is the only of the three of the three I'd take over Attitash. It's got the most challenging terrain in NH and some of the toughest in the east. Their snow isnt fantastic and I personally don't like the layout. These factors make Wildcat the better overall experience for me, too (easily the second best terrain in NH and you can crank out a full day's worth of runs at most places by noon there).

I rarely went to Cranmore when I wasn't racing, but I never found that place interesting. That could have changed a bit with that new upper mountain triple that lets you access the steeper stuff more easily/directly - not sure. 

Maybe I never got the memo, but BW has always bored me. A day skiing is better than a day sitting at home, but every time I went there and poked around in the woods, I was disappointed by the lack of pitch generally, and the lack of sustained pitch where I was able to find a little bit of steepness. It's a great operation, but skews too Sr. citizen and/or lower intermediate for me. 

Attitash only on the epic local pass is ~$200 cheaper than the super pass, and unless I'm a bachelor with his own MWV pad, I don't know how I pull off not spending almost all my days at Cranmore or BW. I'd rather ski Attitash and use the savings to take some day trips wherever I wanted, or use the savings to take a weekend to VT (granted, savings would only pay for a trip if you needed to buy passes for a family, not just one for yourself).

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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ugh... I recoil when I hear Mount Snow & Okemo mentioned as "big boys" in Vermont, but using skier visits & top-line revenue as a guide, it's undeniably true.   Another useful reminder that this board is not reflective of the average American skier.


I know. I cringed writing it, but you got exactly what I meant.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I hear what you guys are saying, I just can't imagine getting to Cannon with any regularity from MWV after already driving there from down south most weekends in the winter. Cannon is the only of the three of the three I'd take over Attitash. It's got the most challenging terrain in NH and some of the toughest in the east. Their snow isnt fantastic and I personally don't like the layout. These factors make Wildcat the better overall experience for me, too (easily the second best terrain in NH and you can crank out a full day's worth of runs at most places by noon there).
> 
> I rarely went to Cranmore when I wasn't racing, but I never found that place interesting. That could have changed a bit with that new upper mountain triple that lets you access the steeper stuff more easily/directly - not sure.
> 
> ...


As mentioned. Cannon would be my Sunday choice.  Easy commute home down 93.  Mix up Saturdays and Sundays between BW and Cranmore. 

Now if Vail fixes the triple, adds a substantial amount of glades and grooms less, Attitash becomes much more appealing.  As is I just don't go there often.  Probably 90% Cat vs 10% Attitash.  

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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> As mentioned. Cannon would be my Sunday choice.  Easy commute home down 93.  Mix up Saturdays and Sundays between BW and Cranmore.
> 
> Now if Vail fixes the triple, adds a substantial amount of glades and grooms less, Attitash becomes much more appealing.  As is I just don't go there often.  Probably 90% Cat vs 10% Attitash.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



That makes sense - missed the Sunday part. As long as you're okay bringing stuff up/down every weekend and don't do kids programs (I did them but plan on avoiding with mine), it's totally doable. I got very burnt out on Attitash and spent most of my time at the cat after it came in the fold. Went a year or two without a pass when I was in my 20s after college and before the drifter pass and really enjoyed getting away from Attitash. That said, it made me a sustained pitch snob and made snow just about anywhere else seem phenomenal.

I get that Vail hasn't upgraded any lifts back east (and just a couple in the midwest), but they haven't run into a scenario as dire as the summit triple before. I'd be surprised if they don't fix it. As BG mentioned, those guys are brand obsessed and nothing says "we're cheap" more than the summit triple. I'd take just making snow on the whole mountain, but would love to see some steep runs left ungroomed and covered like the good old days - Kachina, grandstand and one run between Tim's, Idiot's, Ptarmigan and Tightrope would be a good start.

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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> As mentioned. Cannon would be my Sunday choice.  Easy commute home down 93.  Mix up Saturdays and Sundays between BW and Cranmore.
> 
> Now if Vail fixes the triple, adds a substantial amount of glades and grooms less, Attitash becomes much more appealing.  As is I just don't go there often.  Probably 90% Cat vs 10% Attitash.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



That makes sense - missed the Sunday part. As long as you're okay bringing stuff up/down every weekend and don't do kids programs (I did them but plan on avoiding with mine), it's doable. I got very burnt out on Attitash and spent most of my time at the cat after it came in the fold. Went a year or two without a pass when I was in my 20s after college and before the drifter pass and really enjoyed getting away from Attitash. That said, Attitash made me a sustained pitch snob and made snow just about anywhere else seem phenomenal.

I get that Vail hasn't upgraded any lifts back east (and few in the midwest), but they haven't run into a scenario as dire as the summit triple before. I'd be surprised if they don't replace it. As BG mentioned, those guys are brand obsessed and nothing says "we're cheap" more than the summit triple. I'd take just making snow on the whole mountain, but would love to see some steep runs left ungroomed and covered like the good old days - Kachina, grandstand and one run between Tim's, Idiot's, Ptarmigan and Tightrope would be a good start.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2019)

They were good about not grooming Grand Stand or Kachina last year, though they never made snow on Kachina.  Lower Ptarmigan also has been left to bump up. 

I've lobbied for years for them to leave one of the four trails you mentioned ungroomed.  It's basically fallen on deaf ears.  

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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> They were good about not grooming Grand Stand or Kachina last year, though they never made snow on Kachina.  Lower Ptarmigan also has been left to bump up.
> 
> I've lobbied for years for them to leave one of the four trails you mentioned ungroomed.  It's basically fallen on deaf ears.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Good to hear about the bumping up, but even under ASC, every trail I mentioned got snowmaking regardless of whether it was a bump run or not. I obviously don't need to explain to you the elevation and snowfall situation there, but let's just say it made a noticeable difference.

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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

Removed duplicate


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Good to hear about the bumping up, but even under ASC, every trail I mentioned got snowmaking regardless of whether it was a bump run or not. I obviously don't need to explain to you the elevation and snowfall situation there, but let's just say it made a noticeable difference.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


Really the only trails over the past 5-6 years that haven't seen snowmaking are Upper Kachina and Wilfred's.  My understanding is the pipe is busted on Wilfred's.  

I'm sure ASC probably made more snow though.  My experience has been that for the most part they blow trails really deep, but only focus on a few key runs with resurfacing; Spillway, Moat, Thad's, Illusion and Morning Star.  The roll out has always been pretty slow too for both Cat and Tash.  The two mountains basically share the same crew.  Rarely do you see snow being made at both resorts on the same day.  Hopefully that changes with Vail. 

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## EPB (Aug 10, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Really the only trails over the past 5-6 years that haven't seen snowmaking are Upper Kachina and Wilfred's.  My understanding is the pipe is busted on Wilfred's.
> 
> I'm sure ASC probably made more snow though.  My experience has been that for the most part they blow trails really deep, but only focus on a few key runs with resurfacing; Spillway, Moat, Thad's, Illusion and Morning Star.  The roll out has always been pretty slow too for both Cat and Tash.  The two mountains basically share the same crew.  Rarely do you see snow being made at both resorts on the same day.  Hopefully that changes with Vail.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


"Cat and Tash" ??? I thought it was "Kitty and Titty" ?!?!?

Also, I didn't think middle Ptarmigan has seen snowmaking in years.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2019)

Definitely got to middle Ptarmigan the past couple of years.  It was last on the list both years

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## Smellytele (Aug 11, 2019)

Liftopia has lift tickets available right now for the ex-peak resorts. I wounder if they will still be valid


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## EPB (Aug 11, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Definitely got to middle Ptarmigan the past couple of years.  It was last on the list both years
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Good to hear. It was closed when I got there last March, but I think it was iced over rather than untouched by snowmaking now that you mention it. I'm really interested to see how Vail approaches snowmaking at both Attitash and Wildcat. While I didn't like the relative lack of snowmaking on expert trails under Peak, I understood the rationale from a business perspective: most guests are ~intermediates, those trails get the most crowded, make sure as many of them are open at the potential expense of steeper and/or bump runs. I don't know if you went to Wildcat much in the 90s and early 00s, but the place has about 90% snowmaking coverage and the old owners used to use it. Vail could fairly dramatically change the way Wildcat skis if they make more snow and groom more like the old owners did (upper Wildcat, middle catapult and tomcat schuss come to mind).

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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2019)

This past season Tim's was the last to be covered, Ptarmigan was earlier.

The two that they did not make snow on were Upper Kachina (chose not to) and Ammo Pitch (they never do, but Chickens instead).

Wilfreds and Turkey Chute are the two that had snowmaking in past but are disconnected. Turkey Chute no losa, Wilfreds we've been over.

They're replacing the pipe on Moat, Top Ammonoosuc, and Cathedral right now.


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## EPB (Aug 11, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> This past season Tim's was the last to be covered, Ptarmigan was earlier.
> 
> The two that they did not make snow on were Upper Kachina (chose not to) and Ammo Pitch (they never do, but Chickens instead).
> 
> ...


Ammo pitch is natural, I believe. I was surprised Peak didn't make snow on Turkey chute to Carrigan. Could re-rate Whitehorse below highway to blue and manufacture another blue square run that they seemed to covet so much.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Liftopia has lift tickets available right now for the ex-peak resorts. I wounder if they will still be valid



That is interesting, but not terribly surprising as the deal has not closed.   I suspect that if you buy legacy Peak Resorts tickets today, Vail will indeed have to honor those tickets.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 11, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Good to hear. It was closed when I got there last March, but I think it was iced over rather than untouched by snowmaking now that you mention it. I'm really interested to see how Vail approaches snowmaking at both Attitash and Wildcat. While I didn't like the relative lack of snowmaking on expert trails under Peak, I understood the rationale from a business perspective: most guests are ~intermediates, those trails get the most crowded, make sure as many of them are open at the potential expense of steeper and/or bump runs. I don't know if you went to Wildcat much in the 90s and early 00s, but the place has about 90% snowmaking coverage and the old owners used to use it. Vail could fairly dramatically change the way Wildcat skis if they make more snow and groom more like the old owners did (upper Wildcat, middle catapult and tomcat schuss come to mind).
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


My experience at Cat only dates to 2005 when I moved to Portland.  Grew up skiing in VT pretty much exclusively.  2005-2012 I skied Cat 2-3 times a season. I've been a pass holder at Cat since 2012 skipping the one season following the catastrophic failure of the snowmaking system. 

Since the system upgrade they've made snow on Middle Catapult most years.  Just a small base and then it's left ungroomed most of the season.  I could see Vail making more on it and regularly grooming it.  Against my desires it would be a good groomer to take pressure off Middle Wildcat, which gets a ton of traffic and becomes skied off.

Id be happy with snowmaking on Schuss. It's one of the first trails to burn out in the spring as sun hits it early.  It would be nice to have some base and have it be a good spring bump run.

Upper Wildcat I hope remains all natural, but I bet Vail turns it into a snowmaking run with regular grooming.  Many cat regulars would be pissed by that move. It's such a great natural snow trail.

Catenary and Cougar I suspect will eventually see new pipe and regular snowmaking and grooming by Vail as well. Those also are great natural trails. I'd be less upset about that change than Upper Wildcat.

Upper Lift Lion might be something they consider as well if they want to remove the old gondola footings. 

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## ss20 (Aug 11, 2019)

I think significant snowmaking coverage increases at Mount Snow are much more likely than Wildcat.  Mount Snow has the water capacity now, the demographic (intermediate level skiers who stick to groomed terrain), and the need to improve against their competition (Snowmaking coverage at Mt Snow 80%, Okemo and Stratton 95%+).  

I don't think Vail will touch Wildcat or Attitash.  They wanted Hunter and Mount Snow, imo.  And I guess the midwest areas are a big draw too but I don't know enough to comment.


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## Newpylong (Aug 11, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> Ammo pitch is natural, I believe. I was surprised Peak didn't make snow on Turkey chute to Carrigan. Could re-rate Whitehorse below highway to blue and manufacture another blue square run that they seemed to covet so much.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Natural by choice. The main Saco to Amon. line actually goes on Ammo Pitch, and until this year they dragged hoses from Idiots to cover Chickens. With the new pipe this year the lines split at the Tims valve box, Idiots still going that way but new pipe on Chickens and then down Ammon. Ammo pitch is disconnected, no big deal since its victaulic and hasnt been used in 20 years.

Their system is similar to that of Magics and Wildcats in that they have or had a high % of coverage on build out but economics (and this skier visits) does not warrant it all being used all the time. There's only so much you can do in so many hours where it makes sense.


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## Edd (Aug 11, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> My experience at Cat only dates to 2005 when I moved to Portland.  Grew up skiing in VT pretty much exclusively.  2005-2012 I skied Cat 2-3 times a season. I've been a pass holder at Cat since 2012 skipping the one season following the catastrophic failure of the snowmaking system.
> 
> Since the system upgrade they've made snow on Middle Catapult most years.  Just a small base and then it's left ungroomed most of the season.  I could see Vail making more on it and regularly grooming it.  Against my desires it would be a good groomer to take pressure off Middle Wildcat, which gets a ton of traffic and becomes skied off.
> 
> ...



Upper Wildcat as a groomer would be wildly unpopular, I agree. Middle Catapult I’d be fine with and want that groomed personally. Catanery, Cougar, and TS I like ungroomed although I can get behind grooming half of TS like Bretton Woods does with much of their terrain.


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## thebigo (Aug 11, 2019)

Stopped by the cat today. Everything on windhold. Talked to staff, sensed some trepidation. Comment was along the lines of - we were told to expect business as usual this year, then changes next.


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## thebigo (Aug 11, 2019)

Not advocating for grooming but always wondered if trails like upper wildcat would benefit from blowing a bulletproof base early season with a single groomer run prior to a deep freeze, then dont touch it the rest of the year - solstice proper at the crotch may be another example.


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## Tin (Aug 11, 2019)

Rumor is they are going for the Stony Brook area at Attitash after the new summit lift in 2-3 years.


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## thebigo (Aug 11, 2019)

Tin said:


> Rumor is they are going for the Stony Brook area at Attitash after the new summit lift in 2-3 years.



Source?


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## EPB (Aug 11, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Source?


Les Otten circa 1998?

Re: your conversation with employees. I heard via liftblog that Vail usually waits a year before making any updates. They like to see the kinks themselves before deciding how to fix them. Seems totally reasonable. It's hard to find a optimal solutions without really understanding the problems first.

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## abc (Aug 12, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Liftopia has lift tickets available right now for the ex-peak resorts. I wounder if they will still be valid





BenedictGomez said:


> Vail will indeed have to honor those tickets.





eastern powder baby said:


> Vail usually waits a year before making any updates


It's also hard to make any changes when you have to honor all the deals and contracts already in place. 

Wait a season, many of those obligation would disappear. Much less baggage to handle.


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## Newpylong (Aug 12, 2019)

Tin said:


> Rumor is they are going for the Stony Brook area at Attitash after the new summit lift in 2-3 years.



There are no such rumors even within highest Attitash management. They have heard nothing, and do not expect to until the deal is done. Until then it's business as usual, but long term agreements and major purchases have been scaled back or nixed.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 12, 2019)

abc said:


> It's also hard to make any changes when you have to honor all the deals and contracts already in place.
> 
> Wait a season, many of those obligation would disappear.



A big part of Vail's business strategy is that there are no deals.  

BOGOs disappear, ski club days will either go away or slowly diminish (boiling frog style), no more fun discount days, etc...

Kill off everything that even remotely lets people save money on tickets & simultaneously RAISE the price of tickets to pricepoints that are disconnected from financial reality, all in a bid to "force" people onto passes.


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## Domeskier (Aug 12, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Kill off everything that even remotely lets people save money on tickets & simultaneously RAISE the price of tickets to pricepoints that are disconnected from financial reality, all in a bid to "force" people onto passes.



Is a Hunter bus trip from Manhattan going to cost $200+ now?  Maybe there is a silver lining in this.


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## abc (Aug 12, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Is a Hunter bus trip from Manhattan going to cost $200+ now?  Maybe there is a silver lining in this.


Silver lining... Do you think the NYC yuppies will balk at that price? 

Or do you think they'll start slumming it at Bellearye?


----------



## cdskier (Aug 12, 2019)

abc said:


> Silver lining... Do you think the NYC yuppies will balk at that price?
> 
> Or do you think they'll start slumming it at Bellearye?



Neither...they're at Windham! :razz:


----------



## abc (Aug 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Neither...they're at Windham! :razz:


Try again!

The Windham crowd are only the middle class...


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 12, 2019)

abc said:


> Silver lining... Do you think the NYC yuppies will balk at that price?



Nah, but the people who have to take ski buses to Hunter probably would.


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## abc (Aug 12, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Nah, but the people who have to take ski buses to Hunter probably would.


Not sure about that. 

Seriously, I know some of the people who could afford a "more upscale" transport actually use the bus. Not owning a car and/or not wanting to drive after a hard day of skiing are two of the reasons many use the bus (apart from being good value). 

In fact, when I used to live in the city, I've had a couple of the "bus people" questioning why I would take the trouble of driving when I could ride/drink/nap, not to mention for for equal or LESS expense.


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## Domeskier (Aug 12, 2019)

abc said:


> Not sure about that.
> 
> Seriously, I know some of the people who could afford a "more upscale" transport actually use the bus. Not owning a car and/or not wanting to drive after a hard day of skiing are two of the reasons many use the bus (apart from being good value).



Maybe Vail can implement luxury bus service from Manhattan to Hunter.  I would not pay a premium for the current bus experience.  Kind of interested to see what happens.  I think the current bus operators will lobby hard to keep the discounts in place.


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## machski (Aug 12, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Maybe Vail can implement luxury bus service from Manhattan to Hunter.  I would not pay a premium for the current bus experience.  Kind of interested to see what happens.  I think the current bus operators will lobby hard to keep the discounts in place.


Well, Vail does own the Epic Shuttles in Colorado.

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## MommaBear (Aug 12, 2019)

Looks like the spread will be getting larger unless the deal goes thru soon.


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## drjeff (Aug 13, 2019)

MommaBear said:


> View attachment 25383
> 
> Looks like the spread will be getting larger unless the deal goes thru soon.



It has been eluded to, that whenever the deal is finalized, regardless of if it is , or isn't, a date when Epic pass products are available, that they (Vail Resorts) will be extended an offer (likely with a time limit) to anyone who has bought a Peak Pass product prior to the closing of the deal, to make the switch to an Epic product, with a full credit of the Peak Pass product price going to the Epic Pass product of choice.  

Whether or not there will be a flat fee for the Epic product, regardless of when you bought your Peak product (for example if you bought your Peak product, before the earliest pricing cut off point back in April to get the best cost for the Peak product, will you be offered the Epic product if you want at it's earliest pricing level), or will it be at a set pricing level, regardless of when you bought your Peak product. That is still one of the significant questions to be determined once the press release announcing the that the deal has officially closed, comes out.


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## mbedle (Aug 13, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> A big part of Vail's business strategy is that there are no deals.
> 
> BOGOs disappear, ski club days will either go away or slowly diminish (boiling frog style), no more fun discount days, etc...
> 
> Kill off everything that even remotely lets people save money on tickets & simultaneously RAISE the price of tickets to pricepoints that are disconnected from financial reality, all in a bid to "force" people onto passes.



If indeed the market is primarely driven by BOGOs, ski club days and low priced lift tickets, then this is going to be one hell of a windfall for small and large independent resorts that still offer those deals. Unfortunately, I feel that the majority of people are really happy with a season pass to their primary ski resort and access to multiple other resorts that Vail owns or has a partnership with. As far as rising daily lift ticket rates, that doesn't appear to be a Vail only issues.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 13, 2019)

I think an 8 hour ticket at my local hill in PA last year was more than $65...


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## drjeff (Aug 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> If indeed the market is primarely driven by BOGOs, ski club days and low priced lift tickets, then this is going to be one hell of a windfall for small and large independent resorts that still offer those deals. Unfortunately, I feel that the majority of people are really happy with a season pass to their primary ski resort and access to multiple other resorts that Vail owns or has a partnership with. As far as rising daily lift ticket rates, that doesn't appear to be a Vail only issues.



The reality is, that if the cost for the Epic local stays roughly the same for next season as it is for this coming season, and they keep the resorts that have no blacked out days as is, and those that do some some black out days and/or total day restrictions as is, the majority of folks, will be getting a significant number of resorts to choose from, with a break even point in 7 to 10 days depending on where one is using their Epic passes.

One can debate the pluses and minuses of the resorts that are part of Vail Resorts for sure, however for a significant chunk of the masses who make up most of the crowds on a hill day in and day out, the value that having a pass, with the number of options as the Epic pass (or IKON as well) at the price points they're offered at, certainly has a great deal of appeal to plenty of customers


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 13, 2019)

Jully said:


> People legit to fly to BTV and ski Stowe. It is stupid, and nothing compared to the traffic DEN gets, *but it is very much a thing*.


No, it's really not "very much a thing."  Take Porter Airlines from Toronto, for example.  They ceased operations for the 2018/2019 winter. 

Here is a quote from a VT Digger 2018 article: 
_"Porter had about 2,000 outbound passengers in its first winter, but only about 600 last year – just .1 percent of the airport’s total traffic. Meanwhile, passenger traffic overall has grown at the Burlington airport, with an increase of 17 percent so far this year over 2017, said Nick Longo, deputy director of aviation for administration at the airport."_

The Porter Airlines flights were marketed heavily toward skiers and the schedule was designed with skiers in mind.

Do people fly to Burlington to ski?   A few do.  Is it "very much a thing?"  Not even close.


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## abc (Aug 13, 2019)

drjeff said:


> The reality is, that if the cost for the Epic local stays roughly the same for next season as it is for this coming season, and they keep the resorts that have no blacked out days as is, and those that do some some black out days and/or total day restrictions as is, the majority of folks, will be getting a significant number of resorts to choose from, *with a break even point in 7 to 10 days depending on where one is using their Epic passes*.


A lot of the casual (recreational?) skiers I know from the NYC metro area ski less than 7 days. It's more of a "something to do" once or twice a winter, rather than a sport or even a hobby. 

Apart from the "bus people", I don't know of anyone who regularly skis Hunter as a day trip. (But I do know a bunch who have season passes there. Those are the ones I heard the biggest grumble from, fearing an increase of pass price next year)

All the people I know who are "regulars" to Mt Snow, Okemo, Stratton are season pass holders. (They'll automatically benefit with a lower priced season pass without changing anything at all.)  

The rest, mountain hop all over. Sometime taking whatever deals they happen to find. 

Will the Epic's 7 day break-even be a good enough draw? I don't know. 



> _*One can debate the pluses and minuses of the resorts that are part of Vail Resorts for sure*_, however for a significant chunk of the masses who make up most of the crowds on a hill day in and day out, the value that having a pass, with the number of options as the Epic pass (or IKON as well) at the price points they're offered at, certainly has a great deal of appeal to plenty of customers


Once we start talking about southern VT, Killington comes into the picture. Ikon has that one locked. It's a deterrent for many of the wannabe "expert skiers" to not have it. Epic has an uphill battle to convince those who can ski "for free" in 2 big mountains of southern/central VT, but not including Killington. 

Ikon, in the mean time, has Stratton and Killington. That's a better attraction for many of the casual skiers from down here. While Hunter and Mt Snow have some legit advanced terrain, it just doesn't have the cache as Killington. 

(this is my year for Epic, so the addition of Hunter will be a welcomed one. But it isn't important enough to change my pattern of rotating passes year to year)


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 13, 2019)

abc said:


> Try again!
> 
> The Windham crowd are only the middle class...




No, he's correct.  The Windham crowd are the yuppies & rich folks who dont care that much about the skiing, but wish to be pampered.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> No, it's really not "very much a thing."  Take Porter Airlines from Toronto, for example.  They ceased operations for the 2018/2019 winter.
> 
> Here is a quote from a VT Digger 2018 article:
> _"Porter had about 2,000 outbound passengers in its first winter, but only about 600 last year – just .1 percent of the airport’s total traffic. Meanwhile, passenger traffic overall has grown at the Burlington airport, with an increase of 17 percent so far this year over 2017, said Nick Longo, deputy director of aviation for administration at the airport."_
> ...



BTV is not at all a major airport and most of the ski traffic in Vermont are folks driving from the major cities.  Folks also take Amtrak, to some extent.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 13, 2019)

MommaBear said:


> View attachment 25383
> 
> Looks like the spread will be getting larger *unless the deal goes thru soon*.



Thanks for reminding me to sell. I held it a bit in hopes Alterra might trump them, but that's not likely now, and all it will take is one crunchy politician using the M word and SKIS will plummet back to the $6 or $7 range.



mbedle said:


> As far as rising daily lift ticket rates, that doesn't appear to be a Vail only issues.



But it is.   The entire lift ticket inflation of recent times is due to Vail, then Alterra, jacking the rates.  Once they jacked, then the indys were free to increase their rates as well.  This has led to general single day lift ticket inflation across the board.



VTKilarney said:


> Do people fly to Burlington to ski?   A few do.  Is it "very much a thing?"  Not even close.



Yeah, Vermont isnt much of a fly-to-ski destination.  As you say, it obviously happens, but if flying to Vermont to ski became illegal (LOL) I doubt the resorts would bat an eyelash.  I will say, however, that when I worked at Stowe I was always surprised how many Brits came here to ski given they have far superior terrain closer, but when you look at their itinerary closer, they almost always tended to be people who were going to visit NYC or other USA sights on a 2 week trip, and skiing was just a 2 to 4 day diversion.


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## RichT (Aug 13, 2019)

Heck, I'm looking for $100.00 back i'm a Veteran.............


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## RichT (Aug 13, 2019)

We call Windham "The Vail of the Catskills"


BenedictGomez said:


> No, he's correct.  The Windham crowd are the yuppies & rich folks who dont care that much about the skiing, but wish to be pampered.


----------



## catskillman (Aug 13, 2019)

RichT said:


> We call Windham "The Vail of the Catskills"



Yep.  And it is true.  I think their private locker room and club must be nicer than Vail's.  The private dining room is 5* and so nice and comfortable.  No ski boots allowed...........


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## RichT (Aug 13, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Yep.  And it is true.  I think their private locker room and club must be nicer than Vail's.  The private dining room is 5* and so nice and comfortable.  No ski boots allowed...........



Plus a season pass twice the price of the other Mtns nearby, and the shortest season to boot


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## cdskier (Aug 13, 2019)

RichT said:


> Plus a season pass twice the price of the other Mtns nearby, and the shortest season to boot



I'm trying to think of another season pass to a mountain in the Northeast in general (never-mind just the Cats) that is as pricey as the Windham one...so far I'm coming up empty. Could they really now be the most expensive pass in the Northeast?


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## NYDB (Aug 14, 2019)

That's crazy expensive.  I got a magic and an ikon pass for that.  

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## andrec10 (Aug 14, 2019)

RichT said:


> We call Windham "The Vail of the Catskills"



Actually, they used to have a T-shirt on the wall in the Lodge that said Aspen of the East. I almost lost my shit when i saw that. I hate the place.


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## abc (Aug 14, 2019)

RichT said:


> We call Windham "The Vail of the Catskills"





andrec10 said:


> Actually, they used to have a T-shirt on the wall in the Lodge that said Aspen of the East. I almost lost my shit when i saw that. I hate the place.


There’s a distinct difference between Aspen and Vail. 

Windhamites can’t decide which it is?


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## mister moose (Aug 14, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, Vermont isnt much of a fly-to-ski destination.  As you say, it obviously happens, but if flying to Vermont to ski became illegal (LOL) I doubt the resorts would bat an eyelash.  I will say, however, that when I worked at Stowe I was always surprised how many Brits came here to ski given they have far superior terrain closer, but when you look at their itinerary closer, they almost always tended to be people who were going to visit NYC or other USA sights on a 2 week trip, and skiing was just a 2 to 4 day diversion.


The Brits I talk to on the lift come here for the language, the hospitality, and shopping in NYC; they rotate trips with Europe.  I talk to folks from FL & DC that flew to VT or frequently BOS.  Many that do have family to visit in the Northeast.  You also see a fair bit of Canadians that came from Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, etc, many drive but some fly.  I've also seen Bermuda.   I've seen Alaska license plates in the lot!


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## RichT (Aug 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I'm trying to think of another season pass to a mountain in the Northeast in general (never-mind just the Cats) that is as pricey as the Windham one...so far I'm coming up empty. Could they really now be the most expensive pass in the Northeast?


I think they are!
Nice town and restaurants though. 14 miles from Hunter. If you can force yourself to drive by Vesuvios's without just stopping there.


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## Quietman (Aug 20, 2019)

So I was pleasantly surprised when I checked out Crotched's window prices for tickets for the coming season.  Weekend tickets went up only $2 from $69 to $71 and weekdays went from $55 to $61.  Online tickets are still discounted to $45-$55 for most weekends.  I don't know what Mount Snow was last year, but I think that the daily window rate of $118 has to be a decent increase.  Online tickets are currently available from $40-$60.  
I wonder if the online discounts will change after the sale is closed.


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## urungus (Aug 20, 2019)

Quietman said:


> So I was pleasantly surprised when I checked out Crotched's window prices for tickets for the coming season.  Weekend tickets went up only $2 from $69 to $71 and weekdays went from $55 to $61.  Online tickets are still discounted to $45-$55 for most weekends.  I don't know what Mount Snow was last year, but I think that the daily window rate of $118 has to be a decent increase.  Online tickets are currently available from $40-$60.
> I wonder if the online discounts will change after the sale is closed.



Last year at Mount Snow the window rate was $110 according to https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/timeline/vt-ticketprices.php


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2019)

Quietman said:


> So *I was pleasantly surprised when I checked out Crotched's window prices for tickets for the coming season.  Weekend tickets went up only $2 from $69 to $71 and weekdays went from $55 to $61.*



Unless they had not raised prices for several years, I would not view 3% & 11% increases positively.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Aug 20, 2019)

shirley, parking will be free.....


----------



## Quietman (Aug 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Unless they had not raised prices for several years, I would not view 3% & 11% increases positively.



A $2 increase with online discounts intact at the Crotch is *a lot better than I expected.* Wawa, an independent area is also going up by $2 from $71 to $73, just saying.  I don't have the time to look up other major areas, because I don't ski them.  Crotched is a  local mountain, not a resort.


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## Quietman (Aug 20, 2019)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> shirley, parking will be free.....



Parking is always free at the Crotch, and I can generally park within 200' of the Rocket


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## cdskier (Aug 20, 2019)

Quietman said:


> A $2 increase with online discounts intact at the Crotch is *a lot better than I expected.* Wawa, an independent area is also going up by $2 from $71 to $73, just saying.  I don't have the time to look up other major areas, because I don't ski them.  Crotched is a  local mountain, not a resort.



Any increases you see this year are just pretty much business as usual and what was already planned before the merger. What (if anything) changes next year once the merger is actually complete and Vail better understands how each property works will be more telling about the actual Vail impact.


----------



## Quietman (Aug 20, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Any increases you see this year are just pretty much business as usual and what was already planned before the merger. What (if anything) changes next year once the merger is actually complete and Vail better understands how each property works will be more telling about the actual Vail impact.



Agree 100%!


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Any increases you see this year are just pretty much business as usual and what was already planned before the merger.



THIS.

Deal is not closed, Vail cannot yet effect any price changes on tickets.  

That said, an 11% increase in weekday tickets is a huge YoY increase, and just another, albeit minor, data point supporting the rampant single day lift ticket increases taking place in the industry.


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## ss20 (Aug 27, 2019)

Interesting note... the website headline for Mount Snow is no longer "Mount Snow is now EPIC" and all Vail literature/logo has been removed.  They still have links to Peak Passes available and no sign of Vail corporate anything.


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## mbedle (Aug 27, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Interesting note... the website headline for Mount Snow is no longer "Mount Snow is now EPIC" and all Vail literature/logo has been removed.  They still have links to Peak Passes available and no sign of Vail corporate anything.



That is interesting. Not sure what is going on. nothing at vailresorts.com. Interesting that the epicpass.com website is also different, not listing the peak resorts in the list of resorts, just noting it on the side.


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## drjeff (Aug 27, 2019)

Given that Vail Resorts made some corporate level personel moves via a press release today - some home offices retirements and promotions of various GM's to either home office company wide positions or bigger resort GM positions, as well as announcing that the guy who was GM at Okemo was promoted to a position where he will oversee all of Vail's Eastern Resorts including the Peak Resorts once the deal closes, not sure one should read much into the lack of mentioning the other properties on their respective company owned resorts websites 





mbedle said:


> That is interesting. Not sure what is going on. nothing at vailresorts.com. Interesting that the epicpass.com website is also different, not listing the peak resorts in the list of resorts, just noting it on the side.



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## cdskier (Aug 27, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Given that Vail Resorts made some corporate level personel moves via a press release today - some home offices retirements and promotions of various GM's to either home office company wide positions or bigger resort GM positions, as well as announcing that the guy who was GM at Okemo was promoted to a position where he will oversee all of Vail's Eastern Resorts including the Peak Resorts once the deal closes, not sure one should read much into the lack of mentioning the other properties on their respective company owned resorts websites



And in the e-mail I just received that the last chance for the lowest Epic pass prices is coming up it still mentions that the Peak resorts are "Coming soon" and lists them all.


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## Newpylong (Aug 27, 2019)

Don't read into it. Both sides jumped the gun a little that is all.


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## drjeff (Aug 29, 2019)

Given that on the latest episode of Vail Resorts Epic by Nature podcast, which was released yesterday (8/28) Rob Katz, Vail Resorts CEO, literally says "and when we close on the Peak Resorts properties we'll have 37 resorts that we operate" I definitely wouldn't read much at all into the changes to the webpages

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## catskillman (Sep 2, 2019)

https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/mt-snow-investor-sues-over-merger,583663


this should delay the closing..........


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2019)

Url not found

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## machski (Sep 2, 2019)

Odd I cannot get the URL for the story to work either.  Use this and it is second story on home page.

https://www.benningtonbanner.com


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## mbedle (Sep 2, 2019)

They stated that the sale price is $463 million, which I thought was actually down around 283 million. Not sure what has changed, since the initial articles were posted about the sale.


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2019)

mbedle said:


> They stated that the sale price is $463 million, which I thought was actually down around 283 million. Not sure what has changed, since the initial articles were posted about the sale.


My hunch is the $463 million is more due to the poor math skills and/or lack of actually researching the story by the reporter than anything else.....  Otherwise there's either been roughly an additional 75% of previously unknown various types of Peak stock shares recently "found" or Vail would of had to quietly up their offer to around $20 a share since announcing the $11 a share offer....

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## EPB (Sep 2, 2019)

catskillman said:


> https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/mt-snow-investor-sues-over-merger,583663
> 
> 
> this should delay the closing..........



I doubt it. The'll need to argue that there is a better alternative to selling to Vail. Given the take out price is 2x the standalone trading price of Peak's stock and there is no indication that anyone else was going to offer that much for Peak, they'll have no legs to stand on. My sense of is they're hoping to get paid a settlement to go away - not to actually block the sale.


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## urungus (Sep 2, 2019)

Mount Snow is selling lift tickets starting with dates starting Oct 26.  If they manage to open that early, that is less than 2 months from now.  Do you guys still anticipate the deal closing before opening day?  Mount Snow was already crowded, with no other Epic Mountain open early in the season I fear what the lines will be like.


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## drjeff (Sep 3, 2019)

urungus said:


> Mount Snow is selling lift tickets starting with dates starting Oct 26.  If they manage to open that early, that is less than 2 months from now.  Do you guys still anticipate the deal closing before opening day?  Mount Snow was already crowded, with no other Epic Mountain open early in the season I fear what the lines will be like.



The next Peak Board financial meeting and update should be the end of this month (September) at which point I would presume that they'd vote on the merger, and then the deal can presumably proceed from there. 

Not sure exactly how long the approval from the SEC would take once the Peak board presumably approves this deal and what effect, if any, the lawsuit may or may not have on the time frame.

The time frame that I have heard a number of people. who know way more about the pace of progress of deals like this than I do, is that sometime in November would be a reasonably window to expect the deal to close


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## mbedle (Sep 3, 2019)

drjeff said:


> My hunch is the $463 million is more due to the poor math skills and/or lack of actually researching the story by the reporter than anything else.....  Otherwise there's either been roughly an additional 75% of previously unknown various types of Peak stock shares recently "found" or Vail would of had to quietly up their offer to around $20 a share since announcing the $11 a share offer....
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



I agree, most likely reporter error.

Edit - I read the complaint and the number comes from a statement in the complaint that "The Proposed Transaction has an enterprise value of approximately $463.60 million."


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## cdskier (Sep 3, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I agree, most likely reporter error.



Yea, I'm leaning towards maybe just a simple typo (replacing the 2 with a 4 somehow). I looked through the recent SEC filings and don't see anything that has changed. I couldn't find mention of that "$463M" figure anywhere in the notice to Peaks Shareholders about the upcoming vote on the merger (scheduled for September 20th) either.

I still never understand lawsuits like this. Are they actually ever successful?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 3, 2019)

I mean doesn't this dude stand to make double what the stock is worth right now? 

I called Vail last week to ask about the pass prices and upgrade options once the deal closes.  I was told, by a very exhausted sounding customer service rep, that in the past the upgrade price has been the difference between the pass prices at the time of announcement.  he said he's received tons of calls from Peak Pass holders trying to find out this answer. 

Why wouldn't Vail just make that statement out of the gate?  Especially since the Epic Passes increase in price after the merger was announced.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 3, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I mean doesn't this dude stand to make double what the stock is worth right now?
> 
> I called Vail last week to ask about the pass prices and upgrade options once the deal closes.  I was told, by a very exhausted sounding customer service rep, that in the past the upgrade price has been the difference between the pass prices at the time of announcement.  he said he's received tons of calls from Peak Pass holders trying to find out this answer.
> 
> Why wouldn't Vail just make that statement out of the gate?  Especially since the Epic Passes increase in price after the merger was announced.



My guess is because nothing is final, until it's final. And if the deal takes a much longer time to close than expected, it could put them into a situation that creates far "worse" problems for both companies from a passholders customer service perspective, than having to answer the question over an over.  Let's say that this lawsuit filed delays the deal until March or April, when next years (the '20-'21 season) are going on sale, and those who had Peak Passes for the '19-'20 season got basically a full seasons use out of their passes as they were intended on the pass purchase date (meaning a full season at Peak properties), you'd probably have a slew of folks expecting that the cost of their '19-'20 Peak pass product would be credited towards a '20-'21 Epic product, and that would cause issues.

As someone who has their '19-'20 Peak Pass in hand already, and is going to Utah around New Years (got the IKON pass for that) and also has the opportunity to ski current Epic resorts in Vermont in particular this coming season, I am 100% interested in what the specific details of "trading in" my Peak Pass for an Epic Pass will be. I also fully get that from the business side of things, even though the Vail Resorts folks likely have all of the specifics worked out for the likely timeline for the closing of the deal, that they can't be 100% sure of it, and changes to their plan for handling the Peak to Epic conversions may need to happen, which could create even more chaos than there will already be


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## thebigo (Sep 3, 2019)

They updated the FAQ, sounds like peak pass holders will be able to purchase epic at the 7/22 rate and get a refund on their original purchase. Effectively a $70 charge to swap an explorer for epic local. A good deal for everyone except those with 6 year old kids, works out to around $450 for myself, wife and older daughter to ski sunapee. Not sure about direct to lift access for our three year old, dont see anything of the epic website. 

The whole thing sounds like a logistical nightmare especially if they close in november, no way to get epic pass ahead of time, lines to swap will be out the door. 

*If I bought a Peak Resorts pass product, am I entitled to a refund?*
After closing of the transaction, Vail Resorts will be allowing pass holders who purchased a Peak Resorts pass product to exchange their pass for an Epic Pass, should they want to.  Depending on the price difference between the two products, you will either be charged the balance or refunded the difference. Please note, exchanges for products purchased prior to the 7/22/2019 acquisition announcement will be eligible to receive pricing and benefits on their new pass in line with those available on the acquisition announcement date for a limited time. For those who purchased a Peak Pass Product after 7/22/2019, guests will be eligible to upgrade or exchange to an Epic Season Pass product at the current price and benefit offering available for that product. 

Details about exchange information will be announced following the close of the acquisition.

*If I purchased Peak Resorts season pass product already can I exchange for a pass that has access to other resorts? 
*Yes, after the closing of the transaction, you will be able to exchange for the Epic Pass. Please note, exchanges for products purchased prior to the 7/22/2019 acquisition announcement will be eligible to receive pricing and benefits on their new pass in line with those available on the acquisition announcement date for a limited time. For those who purchased a Peak Pass Product after 7/22/2019, guests will be eligible to upgrade or exchange to an Epic Season Pass product at the current price and benefit offering available for that product. 

More details on the process for exchange of Peak Resorts season pass products to be announced after the close of the acquisition.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 3, 2019)

Thanks for the info!

I wish they would've just put that in the FAQ from the beginning...

I will definitely be upgrading my wife and I to Epic Locals. I want this sale to close and I want winter to start STAT so I can figure out where I am going to take my college son over winter break.


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## FBGM (Sep 4, 2019)

Looks like some sort of hiccup has happened in the buyout. Some board member is grumpy and suing? Standard America sue happy. Hopefully this doesn’t hang up the buyout process to long.


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## cdskier (Sep 4, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Looks like some sort of hiccup has happened in the buyout. Some board member is grumpy and suing? Standard America sue happy. Hopefully this doesn’t hang up the buyout process to long.



Is there a new lawsuit? Otherwise the one filed last week was by a regular investor and not a board member from everything I read.


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## FBGM (Sep 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Is there a new lawsuit? Otherwise the one filed last week was by a regular investor and not a board member from everything I read.



Oh - that’s the one. 

Pay him off. Let’s get this show on the road. No one has time for lawsuits.


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## cdskier (Sep 4, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I agree, most likely reporter error.
> 
> Edit - I read the complaint and the number comes from a statement in the complaint that "The Proposed Transaction has an enterprise value of approximately $463.60 million."



I actually just read the complaint too and came back here to state that's where it came from but see you edited your post after I last read and commented on it.

One of the plaintiff's main arguments seems to be that the board and/or executives are potentially making a lot of money on this transaction due to severance and restricted stock they had and that fact wasn't disclosed to shareholders. And therefore the deal is more beneficial to them than to actual shareholders and that's the real reason they are recommending that shareholders approve it. Call me crazy, but don't executives and board members almost always do better than common shareholders in a merger/buyout? No board in their right mind is going to approve a deal that pays peanuts to the board and execs and gives common shareholders a huge payoff. Even if that information should have been disclosed, I still don't see that making much difference to how most shareholders will vote. If I'm a shareholder that is receiving over twice the price the stock has been trading at for quite some time, chances are pretty good that to me that's going to sound like a good deal. I don't see anyone else knocking at Peaks' door to offer more than Vail did.

Overall still seems like a giant waste of the court's time as ultimately I suspect the deal still goes through even if slightly delayed.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 4, 2019)

The board (in general) doesn't stand to make any money on it as they are only paid a retainer to begin with. However if they are Inside Directors (Officers, major shareholder reps) then they could... Without going into SEC filings it's hard to see who on the board is a major stakeholder or not.


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## Domeskier (Sep 4, 2019)

The suit will likely settle for additional disclosure and attorney's fees.  Attorneys get a bad rap, but in cases like this it is more than deserved.


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## cdskier (Sep 4, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The board (in general) doesn't stand to make any money on it as they are only paid a retainer to begin with. However if they are Inside Directors (Officers, major shareholder reps) then they could... Without going into SEC filings it's hard to see who on the board is a major stakeholder or not.



The non-employee Directors were paid 75K as their retainer...half in cash and half in restricted stock units. So those 4 directors now have between 30 and 43K restricted shares. Those 4 combined have about a 1% stake in the company while if you include the executive officers the overall stake of the board increases to 11%. (That doesn't include the 9th director who has no direct stake, but represents Cap 1 which obviously has a huge stake as they own all the preferred stock).


----------



## cdskier (Sep 4, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The board (in general) doesn't stand to make any money on it as they are only paid a retainer to begin with. However if they are Inside Directors (Officers, major shareholder reps) then they could... Without going into SEC filings it's hard to see who on the board is a major stakeholder or not.



I just re-read the complaint again and it seems to be more the future plan for the executive officers that the plaintiff is concerned about. The compensation the board members would receive was disclosed, but not whether there were discussions on whether any of current management was offered jobs by Vail post-merger. So the plaintiff alleges that they could have been given offers in the new company that are swaying their opinion on the merger recommendation to shareholders (I think). Is that type of information about future employment of management usually disclosed publicly as part of a merger?


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## Domeskier (Sep 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Is that type of information about future employment of management usually disclosed publicly as part of a merger?



Yes.  Anything that a reasonable shareholder would consider important in deciding how to vote has to be disclosed.  This is a typical nuisance suit that will benefit no one except the plaintiff's counsel.  They want to settle quickly for a few $100K in legal fees, which the defendants are likely to pay because they don't want to hold up the closing and the amounts involved are just a rounding error to them.


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## cdskier (Sep 4, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Yes.  Anything that a reasonable shareholder would consider important in deciding how to vote has to be disclosed.  This is a typical nuisance suit that will benefit no one except the plaintiff's counsel.  They want to settle quickly for a few $100K in legal fees, which the defendants are likely to pay because they don't want to hold up the closing and the amounts involved are just a rounding error to them.



What's the actual motivation for the plaintiff to file something like this anyway? Is he getting a kickback from his lawyer somehow? The guy probably has a fraction of a percent of the shares in Peaks and no matter what is ultimately disclosed chances are they'll have no problem getting enough shareholder votes anyway for the merger to proceed.


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## Domeskier (Sep 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> What's the actual motivation for the plaintiff to file something like this anyway? Is he getting a kickback from his lawyer somehow? The guy probably has a fraction of a percent of the shares in Peaks and no matter what is ultimately disclosed chances are they'll have no problem getting enough shareholder votes anyway for the merger to proceed.



The plaintiffs are typically recruited by the firms.  It could be a family member or friend of the attorney or an entity specifically created by the attorney to file the suit.  The plaintiffs have no involvement in the cases and are not paying legal fees.  There are frequent allegations of kickbacks.  Securities litigation is a sordid industry filled with unscrupulous bottom-feeders.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2019)

cdskier said:


> *Is that type of information about future employment of management usually disclosed publicly as part of a merger?*



Absolutely.   If not, the potential shenanigans are only limited by what the nefarious mind may dream.


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## cdskier (Sep 4, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Absolutely.   If not, the potential shenanigans are only limited by what the nefarious mind may dream.



I was thinking that meant they had to have made decisions definitively about who they were keeping which seemed a bit odd to me as I would think you wouldn't necessarily always know that until closer to the closing date, but in looking at some other proxy statements related to mergers it seems sometimes they say something like this:



> As of the date of this proxy statement, none of our executive officers has entered into any agreement with Parent or any of its affiliates regarding employment with, or the right to purchase or participate in the equity of, the Surviving Corporation or one or more of its affiliates. Prior to and following the closing of the Merger, however, certain of our executive officers may have discussions with, and following the closing of the Merger, may enter into agreements with, Parent or Merger Sub, their subsidiaries or their respective affiliates regarding employment with, or the right to purchase or participate in the equity of, the Surviving Corporation or one or more of its affiliates.



Obviously the statement would need to be truthful, but now seeing you can say that "nothing has been decided yet but that could change before the closing" satisfies the questions I had in my mind about what happens if you don't know.


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## drjeff (Sep 4, 2019)

I think one other thing to keep in mind, and why likely initially, Vail Resorts is likely to keep the vast majority of current Peak employees, is that while Vail Resorts has certainly had times in the past where on the day a deal closed they had to integrate multiple resorts into their system, never had they had to simultaneously integrate SEVENTEEN resorts into their system. Even for Vail Resorts, that's going to take a lot of manpower and require them to learn a bunch of data about all of those properties, data that working knowledge of what was done before will likely help the integration go as seamlessly as possible.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I think one other thing to keep in mind, and why likely* initially, Vail Resorts is likely to keep the vast majority of current Peak employees*



It's near certain that they will do so using history as a guide, but especially given a fall closing; 2020 is when the reckoning takes place.


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## FBGM (Sep 5, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's near certain that they will do so using history as a guide, but especially given a fall closing; 2020 is when the reckoning takes place.



Anyone with a title close to marketing manager, director of marketing - yeah you’re gone. 

Anyone in payroll, AP, - that type of thing - your department is getting thinned 

Anyone with a higher pay scale then the Vail model shows - you’re gone


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## AdironRider (Sep 5, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Anyone with a title close to marketing manager, director of marketing - yeah you’re gone.
> 
> Anyone in payroll, AP, - that type of thing - your department is getting thinned
> 
> Anyone with a higher pay scale then the Vail model shows - you’re gone




Realistically, with Peak already being a 17 resort consortium, this consolidation already happened and Vail will still have to keep up with the additional volume, so a lot of these jobs are safe.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 5, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Realistically, with Peak already being a 17 resort consortium, this consolidation already happened and Vail will still have to keep up with the additional volume, so a lot of these jobs are safe.



Ski jobs yes, but I agree that the sales and marketing folks are mostly toast.  Same with accounts payable, accounts receivable, finance, accounting, human resources, etc...  Roles like that.  Not all of those roles of course, but at the very least, of the roles "saved", my guess is plenty will be forced to either move to Colorado or take a hike, and most wont relocate their family cross-coast, which is effectively the same as losing your job.


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## Newpylong (Sep 6, 2019)

The individual mountains still handle their AR/AP, HR, Payroll, etc and so on. There are some economies of scale of being in Peak or Vail resorts but most of that revolves around marketing and sales - which I suspect will see the most change.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The* individual mountains still handle their AR/AP, HR, Payroll, etc *and so on.



Do you know this as a fact?  

Frankly, I'd be pretty surprised if Vail handles their own payroll as they are ruthlessly efficient with the bottom-line, and it's far cheaper to outsource that to someone like ADP.  

AP too, it's far cheaper to just outsource that to India & have invoices emailed to a VailResorts.com email address to a person in New Delhi than having to pay numerous human beings a salary, medical, benefits, etc...


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## Newpylong (Sep 6, 2019)

Sorry I meant Peaks. Yes you are correct, Vail mountains - everything is out of Colorado - HR, Payroll, AR, AP, etc.

ADP, Paychex, etc is not as cheap as you think for shops with large # of employees, it often makes sense to handle internally.


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## AdironRider (Sep 6, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you know this as a fact?
> 
> Frankly, I'd be pretty surprised if Vail handles their own payroll as they are ruthlessly efficient with the bottom-line, and it's far cheaper to outsource that to someone like ADP.
> 
> AP too, it's far cheaper to just outsource that to India & have invoices emailed to a VailResorts.com email address to a person in New Delhi than having to pay numerous human beings a salary, medical, benefits, etc...



Yeah I actually do know this stuff as a fact. Good luck getting good ol boy mountain town contractors and vendors that are willing to put up with some guy in India who barely speaks English. It doesn't work out. I've seen that rodeo before and it lasts no more than a year when your subcontractors all bail on you because some dude in India is giving them a hard time. 

All of these mountains are still going to have GMs. All of these mountains are still going to need a marketing manager and staff to schmooze and oversee events hosted at the mountain. All of these mountains are going to have HR people to onboard hundreds of seasonal employees. ADP still needs 'timesheets' to process their payroll and those timesheets need to be audited by a human on site. 

Peak was a large organization and again, have already captured these economies of scale. The only people who are going to be sweating this are the C Suite execs are Peak (CEO/CFO/VP Marketing), and they won't be sweating at all as they will get cushy buyout packages. 

Frankly, you do not know of which you speak on these matters.


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## abc (Sep 6, 2019)

Both of you are right.

I've seen so many mergers I could almost call myself a "merger specialist". Mind you, not the merger itself, but for being the cavalry galloping in to help after the merge. 

What typically happens is the existing employee got insecure and start looking for another job. In a good market, which merger typically happens, any worker who can do a half decent job easily found other employers and left. All of a sudden, the outfit had severe shortage of essential staff to run their day to day operation. That's when I got pulled in to help, quick! 

At first, I thought I'd be gone once they fully merged. But as the pay was typically much elevated, I happily oblige. But as I found out one company after another, the actual merge of separate systems takes way longer than anticipated. By the time all the kinks got worked out, I became such an "inside expert" of the outfit they want me to stay on! Though for me, I typically don't because it's more lucrative to gallop to the next merger victim who're willing to pay extra...

Eventually, some of the old workers would be laid off. Specially those who couldn't find any alternatives. Basically, those they had wanted to get rid of but couldn't find a good excuse. The merger provides the perfect excuse to get rid of people whom they should have gotten rid of long ago.


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## Newpylong (Sep 6, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Yeah I actually do know this stuff as a fact. Good luck getting good ol boy mountain town contractors and vendors that are willing to put up with some guy in India who barely speaks English. It doesn't work out. I've seen that rodeo before and it lasts no more than a year when your subcontractors all bail on you because some dude in India is giving them a hard time.
> 
> All of these mountains are still going to have GMs. All of these mountains are still going to need a marketing manager and staff to schmooze and oversee events hosted at the mountain. All of these mountains are going to have HR people to onboard hundreds of seasonal employees. ADP still needs 'timesheets' to process their payroll and those timesheets need to be audited by a human on site.
> 
> ...



Actually none of the Vail resorts in the East have HR departments anymore. All handled from CO. The worker's managers hand them off once they show up.


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## AdironRider (Sep 6, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Actually none of the Vail resorts in the East have HR departments anymore. All handled from CO. The worker's managers hand them off once they show up.



Bull, Okemo alone is hiring several HR positions currently right in Ludlow, including an employee housing manager type and HR coordinator. Stowe is doing the same as well. 

You guys are seriously underestimating just how much hands on labor it takes to operate a completely seasonal operation with incredibly high turnover. 

Again though, the point is Peak was already a 17 mountain beast of a ski resort company. These consolidations (if necessary at all) have already occurred and what is left probably isn't going anywhere. 

If this was a one off mountain purchase (ala if they were to buy Jackson Hole for example) there would be more cuts, but that is not the case here.


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## Newpylong (Sep 6, 2019)

Coordinators perhaps, certainly not a full fledged HR department anymore. I was leaving Sunapee right when I read this thread and asked their Director of Operations, and he said all of the aforementioned items are handled right out of CO now. It wouldn't surprise me that Okemo and Stowe given their size need a local presence that perhaps was inadequate.

I certainly am not underestimating, I ran a mountain with only 30 something odd seasonal employees and that was hard enough. Was just stating the state of Vail as I know it in the East.

I do know local management, even a year after joining Vail, are still fairly in the dark about what the long term plans are. These are a lot of children joining the family quickly.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Frankly, you do not know of which you speak on these matters.



Yeah, actually I think I do.  I've been involved with offloading an AP department to India, and it saves a ****ton of money.  And if your "contractors" are having to even so much as have a single conversation with some dude in Mumbai as you suggest, you completely screwed-up & are doing it wrong.  You're also doing it wrong if you have a huge HR presence in 2019, but I digress....

And as I said, I know nothing of Vails internals, but I'd be shocked if MOST (notice I used that word and didnt speak in absolutes) of the non ski-related operational roles & certainly the bigger roles dont move to Colorado.


----------



## FBGM (Sep 10, 2019)

Wonder what Mt Snows new opening and closing dates will be? This year will
Be same ol shit - but with the Vail change next year - 

I think Thanksgiving weekend or maybe week before for open. Closing 2ed week April.


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## drjeff (Sep 10, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Wonder what Mt Snows new opening and closing dates will be? This year will
> Be same ol shit - but with the Vail change next year -
> 
> I think Thanksgiving weekend or maybe week before for open. Closing 2ed week April.



So in other words, short of a couple of years when they were able to open up early and a few years when they were able to stay open late, it's likely going to be a season length, like most of us Mount Snow regulars have come to expect... Which on average has been the 3rd weekend in November through the 2nd weekend in April


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## skiur (Sep 10, 2019)

I would expect that they would want one eastern resort on the epic pass to open early and Mt Snow seems like it would be the best of the eastern epic resorts to do that.


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## 2Planker (Sep 10, 2019)

skiur said:


> I would expect that they would want one eastern resort on the epic pass to open early and Mt Snow seems like it would be the best of the eastern epic resorts to do that.



Actually it would be Wildcat  "Always first to open & last to close in NH"
It usually has 3-4 week longer season than any southern VT resort.  Usual closing date is in May


----------



## drjeff (Sep 10, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Actually it would be Wildcat  "Always first to open & last to close in NH"
> It usually has 3-4 week longer season than any southern VT resort.  Usual closing date is in May



If Vail wants to just open 1 resort "early" in the East, geographically, Mount Snow is far closer to the NYC population base than Wildcat is. Time will tell if Vail wants to try and get a property(ies) open in Early November to compete with the IKON options, and if they do, how they'll go about that.

No doubt, Wildcat has plenty of early and late season advantages over Mount Snow, however Mount Snow has a geographical advantage over Wildcat when it comes to proximity to BOTH the New York and Boston population centers, and that may (or may not) play into any early season plans that time will see if Vail Resorts has for the East...


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## 2Planker (Sep 10, 2019)

drjeff said:


> If Vail wants to just open 1 resort "early" in the East, geographically, Mount Snow is far closer to the NYC population base than Wildcat is. Time will tell if Vail wants to try and get a property(ies) open in Early November to compete with the IKON options, and if they do, how they'll go about that.
> 
> No doubt, Wildcat has plenty of early and late season advantages over Mount Snow, however Mount Snow has a geographical advantage over Wildcat when it comes to proximity to BOTH the New York and Boston population centers, and that may (or may not) play into any early season plans that time will see if Vail Resorts has for the East...



Except that that same geography means there IS NO SNOW after about the first week in April..

We'll see....
I predict Wildcat will outlast Mt Snow by 2-3 weeks at least....


----------



## cdskier (Sep 10, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Except that that same geography means there IS NO SNOW after about the first week in April..
> 
> We'll see....
> I predict Wildcat will outlast Mt Snow by 2-3 weeks at least....



I could see them making Mt Snow the early player and Wildcat the late player in their portfolio in the east (that is if they want to be in that game at all).


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## skiur (Sep 10, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Except that that same geography means there IS NO SNOW after about the first week in April..
> 
> We'll see....
> I predict Wildcat will outlast Mt Snow by 2-3 weeks at least....




Wildcat would be their late season resort, so I agree that wildcat will outlast mt snow, but Mt snow will be the first to open of the epic east resorts.


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## 2Planker (Sep 10, 2019)

Wanna bet ???

Wildcat already has it sights set on an October opening day 

w/ elevation of 4,000' probably a couple weeks ahead of Flatland Mt Snow....


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## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Wanna bet ???
> 
> Wildcat already has it sights set on an October opening day
> 
> w/ elevation of 4,000' probably a couple weeks ahead of Flatland Mt Snow....



And 1/3 the pumping and air capacity and 4 times the acreage needed to open as Mount Snow. At some point elevation cancels these advantages out, but not in this case. One North Face run can be opened in 16 hrs of decent wet bulb if they want to, w/downloading. They have the capacity, equipment and hydrant density in place on Free Fall to do so. But is there a will? We shall see.


----------



## abc (Sep 10, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Wanna bet ???
> 
> Wildcat already has it sights set on an October opening day
> 
> w/ elevation of 4,000' probably a couple weeks ahead of Flatland Mt Snow....


I'll take that bet! 

As *Newpylong *pointed out quite correctly, it's the "will" (or the lack of) that determine late closing, when customers are thin at best.

Early season is important for marketing reason. Mountain that are first to open when the air starts to chill will be front and center on one-week-a-year skiers planning for their yearly ski vacation! So I agree Vail will likely milk Mt Snow for what it's worth.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2019)

Does anyone know if Mount Snow makes money that final week they're open in April?   

Because Vail doesn't care about anyone's "feelings", and isnt going to lose significant money if it's a big loser.  If it makes money or perhaps even breaks even, I imagine it will stay, if not, as we've seen with some other Vail properties, your season is likely getting shortened at least a little bit.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 10, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does anyone know if Mount Snow makes money that final week they're open in April?
> 
> Because Vail doesn't care about anyone's "feelings", and isnt going to lose significant money if it's a big loser.  If it makes money or perhaps even breaks even, I imagine it will stay, if not, as we've seen with some other Vail properties, your season is likely getting shortened at least a little bit.



Not sure about money loss.
I know they close Monday to Friday before final weekends.
To me running a ski hill 1 last weekend to make people happy give me more reason to spend money their. I don't understand if MountainSnow makes $ all winter which they Due then staying open an extra week end or 2 should also.


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## NYDB (Sep 10, 2019)

If you are talking about  cash flow, All mountains lose money every week they are open after presidents week.  

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## skiur (Sep 11, 2019)

NY DirtBag said:


> If you are talking about  cash flow, All mountains lose money every week they are open after presidents week.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using AlpineZone mobile app




Got any proof of that?  I could agree that most ski resorts lose money most weekends after presidents day, but to say all lose money every weekend is just not true.


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## slatham (Sep 11, 2019)

skiur said:


> Got any proof of that?  I could agree that most ski resorts lose money most weekends after presidents day, but to say all lose money every weekend is just not true.



Agreed. There have been many weekends post Presidents where ski areas make money. Maybe not your "typical" weekend, but certainly the good ones. 

I do agree that unless its a special weekend (sun and/or powder) once past mid March its a tough one. But again, I have heard that on a direct cost basis Killington can make money even in May.


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## sull1102 (Sep 11, 2019)

Not a chance in hell Mt Snow is not making money after Feb vacation weeks are over. They have a huge customer base that keeps coming until mid March and the college crowd shows up towards the end of the month. The F&B side of the biz makes a solid profit every weekend as well.


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## slatham (Sep 11, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Wanna bet ???
> 
> Wildcat already has it sights set on an October opening day
> 
> w/ elevation of 4,000' probably a couple weeks ahead of Flatland Mt Snow....



I would agree with you if they could open just up top. But they need to make snow at 2,000', same base elevation as Mt Snow. And they need to cover 2,000' of vertical vs 1,500'. And if I recall, Wildcat cannot make snow simultaneously top-to-bottom. 

And this ignores the theoretical situation where Mt Snow opens only Canyon (even less vertical) or the North Face (less vertical, higher base elevation). 

Mt Snow wins based on output.


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## Smellytele (Sep 11, 2019)

Nydb said Every week after Presidents’ Day not every weekend. Reading comprehension 


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## skiur (Sep 11, 2019)

A week is from Sunday to Saturday.  Some of those weeks after pres day are still profitable.


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## slatham (Sep 11, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Nydb said Every week after Presidents’ Day not every weekend. Reading comprehension
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yes I got that, but the money is made over the weekend so its the weekend that drives whether the week has been profitable or not.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Sep 11, 2019)

Also would like to mention that when Mount Snow opens, they dont require any "stairway to hell". 

That stairway made me a one-and-doner for the whole Killington early season shitshow. Dont see how that will change any time soon


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## 2Planker (Sep 11, 2019)

slatham said:


> I would agree with you if they could open just up top. But they need to make snow at 2,000', same base elevation as Mt Snow. And they need to cover 2,000' of vertical vs 1,500'. And if I recall, Wildcat cannot make snow simultaneously top-to-bottom.
> 
> And this ignores the theoretical situation where Mt Snow opens only Canyon (even less vertical) or the North Face (less vertical, higher base elevation).
> 
> Mt Snow wins based on output.



Sure.....

Just look at the stats.  Mt Snow has NEVER opened before Wildcat.
And we'll be skiing Top to Bottom while you're all downloading IF lucky.

Wager is Burger w/ Beer


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Sure.....
> 
> Just look at the stats.  Mt Snow has NEVER opened before Wildcat.
> And we'll be skiing Top to Bottom while you're all downloading IF lucky.
> ...



Well I was curious so I did just look at the stats. In 2016 Mt Snow opened on November 23rd while Wildcat opened on November 24th. So much for "never".

In 2017 and 2018 they both opened the same days each year (November 11th in 2017 and October 27th in 2018 ). Also, fwiw, last year on opening day Mt Snow had the most open skiable terrain in the entire east.


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## urungus (Sep 11, 2019)

2Planker said:


> Sure.....
> 
> Just look at the stats.  Mt Snow has NEVER opened before Wildcat.
> And we'll be skiing Top to Bottom while you're all downloading IF lucky.



Not true.  From https://www.newenglandskihistory.com


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## drjeff (Sep 11, 2019)

Additionally, it was in 2006 if I recall, the year Peak bought Mount Snow and installed the fan guns, they went big early, and I'm pretty sure only Sunday River and Mount Snow were open for the 1st week or 2 of the season 





cdskier said:


> Well I was curious so I did just look at the stats. In 2016 Mt Snow opened on November 23rd while Wildcat opened on November 24th. So much for "never".
> 
> In 2017 and 2018 they both opened the same days each year (November 11th in 2017 and October 27th in 2018 ). Also, fwiw, last year on opening day Mt Snow had the most open skiable terrain in the entire east.



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## 2Planker (Sep 11, 2019)

I looked it up too,  so maybe not Never, but certainly MOST years for the 35+ years I've worked in the industry Wildcat opened before Mt Snow.

   Those stats are actually not 100% correct as we skied 2 days before they were open according to your 2016 stats. 11/22 was a "soft opening" and 11/23/16 was Game On

No worries 
Bet is still on:  Put your $$ where your mouth is.....


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## Newpylong (Sep 11, 2019)

Well, unless anyone here is making the decisions when to open or not, such currency is quite useless.


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2019)

2Planker said:


> I looked it up too,  so maybe not Never, but certainly MOST years for the 35+ years I've worked in the industry Wildcat opened before Mt Snow.
> 
> Those stats are actually not 100% correct as we skied 2 days before they were open according to your 2016 stats. 11/22 was a "soft opening" and 11/23/16 was Game On
> 
> ...



They also only upgraded their snowmaking system a few years ago (2016 might have been the first year to show it off). So anything before that definitely goes to Wildcat with the geographical advantage. That snowmaking upgrade negated that Wildcat advantage though and leveled the playing field between the two.

The real question though is what Vail will choose to do once they begin making decisions. This year will be business as usual and I'd expect both to open roughly the same date. Next year will be much more telling. Personally I don't care one way or the other as I don't ski at either resort. Still will be interesting to see what kind of decisions Vail makes once they're calling the shots.


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## jaytrem (Sep 11, 2019)

Does it count if MS only opens the Discovery chair?  They've done that a few times with the money going to charity, but didn't call it the official opening.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2019)

2Planker said:


> *Bet is still on:  Put your $$ where your mouth is...*..



If you were a real man, you'd challenge him to ski the K12 instead.


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## thebigo (Sep 11, 2019)

As much as I hope wildcat opens asap and I have no use for mt snow you can get an idea of what the mtns are thinking by their early ticket offerings. Snow is offering early buy tickets for the last week of oct, cat for the 2nd week of nov. With that said lynx top to bottom destroys any other early season offering. Wildcats best chance is early season natural while it rains everywhere else.


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## 2Planker (Sep 12, 2019)

cdskier said:


> They also only upgraded their snowmaking system a few years ago (2016 might have been the first year to show it off). So anything before that definitely goes to Wildcat with the geographical advantage. That snowmaking upgrade negated that Wildcat advantage though and leveled the playing field between the two.
> 
> The real question though is what Vail will choose to do once they begin making decisions. This year will be business as usual and I'd expect both to open roughly the same date. Next year will be much more telling. Personally I don't care one way or the other as I don't ski at either resort. Still will be interesting to see what kind of decisions Vail makes once they're calling the shots.



Actually Peaks upgraded Wildcat Snowmaking the year before Mt Snow...

https://www.visitwhitemountains.com...ations-pushing-for-top-to-bottom-opening-soon


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## Newpylong (Sep 12, 2019)

Keep in mind Wildcat's upgrade was not about capacity, but reliability. When their upper mountain booster failed, they lost the upper mountain pipe. So they had to replace the booster station, and the pipe, and did a lot more pipe while they were at it. Mount Snow's upgrade was all about capacity - per acre, they pretty much have the most powerful system in the Northeast now.


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## slatham (Sep 12, 2019)

Well one's things for sure - we'll know the winner in 6-10 weeks assuming no weather disaster (long range hold very little promise for a mid October miracle). 

And for the record, I believe Mt Snow will beat or tie Wildcat.


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## Smellytele (Sep 12, 2019)

Too bad the terrain at mt snow is not very interesting. Lipstick on a pig


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## 2Planker (Sep 12, 2019)

thebigo said:


> With that said lynx top to bottom destroys any other early season offering.




 True That !!! No one else can offer Top to Bottom on Day #1

Very interested to see see if Vail lets Wildcat do what they've always done OR if they only go w/ one place early...

Yes. as usual Temps will be the key !!


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## drjeff (Sep 12, 2019)

2Planker said:


> True That !!! No one else can offer Top to Bottom on Day #1
> 
> Very interested to see see if Vail lets Wildcat do what they've always done OR if they only go w/ one place early...
> 
> Yes. as usual Temps will be the key !!



Umm, the other resort prominently mentioned in this discussion, Mount Snow, has opened top to bottom for 15+ years now, and not just top to bottom on the Northface


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## machski (Sep 12, 2019)

Umm, SR has on occasion opened TTB off Locke as well and once in Aurora.  Doesn't happen often due to how early they try to open, but they almost always make an attempt if temps allow.

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## 2Planker (Sep 12, 2019)

machski said:


> Umm, SR has on occasion opened TTB off Locke as well and once in Aurora.  Doesn't happen often due to how early they try to open, but they almost always make an attempt if temps allow.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yup -  Worked there for 20+ years,  so I can remember TTB on Right Stuff, and early season attempts on both Obsession and Northern Lights...

Good ole days, before ASC when LBO was puttin in Lifts and opening up new terrain almost every year


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## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2019)

I'm a Cat homer.  It's for sure overall my favorite skiing experience in the East.  

They do deliver longest season in New Hampshire, but it's really not by much. 

Look at their start and stop dates over the past 15 years.  Scroll down through the website

https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/wildcatmtn.php

They basically get going around 11/20 most years and close around 4/25 over the past 15 years.  They've only made May twice. 

When they do open with Lynx ttb, it's most definitely the best early season ski trail in the East.  But it requires a crap load of man-made to accomplish.  

Honestly I think a better strategy would be to blow lower Catapult and run the Bobcat chair first.  It would be a pain in the ass to walk up there, but the Cat hardcore's would.  Quickly after blow open a cut over the Snowcat triple to have lift access near the lodge without hiking.

Get those two going then expand up Middle Wildcat and Catapult towards the summit before kicking on the quad for the season.  

Get the Catapult ttb run going from the base upwards and then move on to filling in Lynx and Polecat

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## ss20 (Sep 12, 2019)

So back to Mount Snow...I got a copy of the Mount Snow magazine for 2019-2020.  There's a whole article on Sunbrook enhancements.  Little Dipper is now a beginner trail with snowmaking and has been widened.  They also "moved" many trails within the Sunbrook complex.  The "new" beginner Little Dipper runs from Little Dipper, to Big Dipper, onto Moonbeam.  Lower Big Dipper is now Moonbeam.  The article also had the GM saying how they want to get to 100% snowmaking within the not-so-distant future.

Also a quick glimpse at the 2020 trail map did not have snowmaking on Fool's Gold over in Carinthia.  Dr Jeff saw pipes with his own eyes so I'm thinking the map was rushed out to production (but it did have Little Dipper as a beginner trail).


Not sure what to think about all this without a new lift over there still.  Normally I'm all for terrain improvements over lift upgrades but the Sunbrook Quad has been "due" for replacement literally half its life now.  I distinctly remember rumors in the 00s about a new lift over there and I believe the permit to replace it was granted in 2011 or 2012!!


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## urungus (Sep 12, 2019)

ss20 said:


> So back to Mount Snow...I got a copy of the Mount Snow magazine for 2019-2020.  There's a whole article on Sunbrook enhancements.  Little Dipper is now a beginner trail with snowmaking and has been widened.  They also "moved" many trails within the Sunbrook complex.  The "new" beginner Little Dipper runs from Little Dipper, to Big Dipper, onto Moonbeam.  Lower Big Dipper is now Moonbeam.  The article also had the GM saying how they want to get to 100% snowmaking within the not-so-distant future.



Not thrilled at the flood of beginners this will bring to that side of the mountain.  How is the beginner supposed to get over there, I don’t believe there are any green connector trails heading into Sunbrook ?


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## 2Planker (Sep 13, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm a Cat homer.  It's for sure overall my favorite skiing experience in the East.
> 
> They do deliver longest season in New Hampshire, but it's really not by much.
> 
> ...




 Got married May 1  on top of Wildcat.  Wedding party, Bagpiper, & JOP all in skis and all skied down.
 Best part was since we were all pass holders and the mt was open - It was FREE.  No Lift rental, facilities charges..  Just the JOP & Bagpiper


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## icecoast1 (Sep 13, 2019)

urungus said:


> Not thrilled at the flood of beginners this will bring to that side of the mountain.  How is the beginner supposed to get over there, I don’t believe there are any green connector trails heading into Sunbrook ?




Hike over from the summit (its flat) .  Little dipper starts at the top


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## Newpylong (Sep 13, 2019)

The route they chose to turn Green has always been a green in reality. You can't even really move on it well with natural snow unless its groomed. It makes sense to reduce the difficulty to attract more people over there. Long John is a farce.

They chose that route (to start) instead of Big Dipper because it can easily be accessed off the summit without a new Sunbrook chair. I wouldn't be surpised to see some tree removal behind the summit valve station to make the the route more apparent.


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## drjeff (Sep 13, 2019)

urungus said:


> Not thrilled at the flood of beginners this will bring to that side of the mountain.  How is the beginner supposed to get over there, I don’t believe there are any green connector trails heading into Sunbrook ?



Hang a right (or essentially almost go straight) at the top of Long John just past the summit pump house and you're heading into Sunbrook on a beginner trail that will take you directly to the top of where Little Dipper begins. From there on down via the new route, it's not much different pitch wise at any point that what beginner encounter on Snowdance or the section of Long John from the top of Carinthia on down to the bottom of the Sundance Triple.

Would you want to take a first timer, on their first trip up to the Summit down that route? Probably not IMHO. Should a beginner who's made trip or 2 down Snowdance or Long John be able to handle the new route? Yup.  The biggest "challenge" I would foresee for a beginner using that route is their chair ride out, as loading the Beartrap Double or the Sunbrook Quad might be a bit more challenging for them than any other lift they've ridden in their limited skiing career


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## drjeff (Sep 13, 2019)

ss20 said:


> So back to Mount Snow...I got a copy of the Mount Snow magazine for 2019-2020.  There's a whole article on Sunbrook enhancements.  Little Dipper is now a beginner trail with snowmaking and has been widened.  They also "moved" many trails within the Sunbrook complex.  The "new" beginner Little Dipper runs from Little Dipper, to Big Dipper, onto Moonbeam.  Lower Big Dipper is now Moonbeam.  The article also had the GM saying how they want to get to 100% snowmaking within the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Also a quick glimpse at the 2020 trail map did not have snowmaking on Fool's Gold over in Carinthia.  Dr Jeff saw pipes with his own eyes so I'm thinking the map was rushed out to production (but it did have Little Dipper as a beginner trail).
> 
> ...


Here's the picture I took on Fool's Gold not too from from the top of the run from the top of the work road that cuts across Fool's Gold, Nitro, through the trees of Claimjumper and on over to Mineshaft.

Unless they plan on not using those pipes this season, I think it was an omission in not mentioning Fools Gold in the Snowmaking expansion for this season 

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## ss20 (Sep 13, 2019)

I do hope they will now run Subrook Quad and Beartrap both midweek.  I think that they will want to make this new green trail lappable without having to go all the way back down to the base via Beartap double and Long John.  I also think the traffic that are will received, even on a random Tuesday in February, would be enough to justify running the quad.


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## jimk (Sep 13, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm a Cat homer.  It's for sure overall my favorite skiing experience in the East.
> 
> They do deliver longest season in New Hampshire, but it's really not by much.
> 
> ...



Still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Vail owns Wildcat
Haven't been following this thread.  How do you and other Cat regulars feel about this?  I've read mixed feedback when other similar acquisitions took place - some don't like that their quiet, off-the-beaten-path mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant, others like that their financially shakey mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant.


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## slatham (Sep 13, 2019)

ss20 said:


> So back to Mount Snow...I got a copy of the Mount Snow magazine for 2019-2020.  There's a whole article on Sunbrook enhancements.  Little Dipper is now a beginner trail with snowmaking and has been widened.  They also "moved" many trails within the Sunbrook complex.  The "new" beginner Little Dipper runs from Little Dipper, to Big Dipper, onto Moonbeam.  Lower Big Dipper is now Moonbeam.  The article also had the GM saying how they want to get to 100% snowmaking within the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Also a quick glimpse at the 2020 trail map did not have snowmaking on Fool's Gold over in Carinthia.  Dr Jeff saw pipes with his own eyes so I'm thinking the map was rushed out to production (but it did have Little Dipper as a beginner trail).
> 
> ...



Trail map on web site not updated yet.......


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## Edd (Sep 13, 2019)

jimk said:


> Still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Vail owns Wildcat
> Haven't been following this thread.  How do you and other Cat regulars feel about this?  I've read mixed feedback when other similar acquisitions took place - some don't like that their quiet, off-the-beaten-path mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant, others like that their financially shakey mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant.



If they don’t shrink the season artificially, I’m mostly ok with it. I’m skeptical that crowds will grow much. It’s no easier to get to now that Vail owns it. The concept of Wildcat being owned by Vail is weird, I agree. 

The only way I see the game changing is if they purchased The Glen House nearby and sold some ski and stay packaging. Then the crowds may grow. Doesn’t seem likely but the hotel is such a nice spot. I hope they’re doing well.


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## Jully (Sep 13, 2019)

Edd said:


> If they don’t shrink the season artificially, I’m mostly ok with it. I’m skeptical that crowds will grow much. It’s no easier to get to now that Vail owns it. The concept of Wildcat being owned by Vail is weird, I agree.
> 
> The only way I see the game changing is if they purchased The Glen House nearby and sold some ski and stay packaging. Then the crowds may grow. Doesn’t seem likely but the hotel is such a nice spot. I hope they’re doing well.



I imagine Kirkwood folks felt similar. Same with Crested Butte.

Don't imagine seeing much of a crowd increase ever at Wildcat.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 13, 2019)

Edd said:


> The concept of Wildcat being owned by Vail is weird, I agree.


 +1


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## mbedle (Sep 13, 2019)

Edd said:


> If they don’t shrink the season artificially, I’m mostly ok with it. I’m skeptical that crowds will grow much. It’s no easier to get to now that Vail owns it. The concept of Wildcat being owned by Vail is weird, I agree.
> 
> The only way I see the game changing is if they purchased The Glen House nearby and sold some ski and stay packaging. Then the crowds may grow. Doesn’t seem likely but the hotel is such a nice spot. I hope they’re doing well.



Are there any cases where Vail has purchased a resort and reduced the number of operating days? Maybe out west, but I don't think that we have seen that occur over here on the east coast. Also, it seems that Vail is actually looking to expand their early and late season offerings with what they are doing at Keystone and Breckenridge.


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## mbedle (Sep 13, 2019)

I'm also having a hard time understanding how a company like Vail could determine if they make money or loose money in the few early or late season weeks of operation. With the majority of early/late season skiers being on season passes, I can't figure out how a company would determine what percentage of the season pass price be allocated as income during those weeks.


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## BushMogulMaster (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I can't figure out how a company would determine what percentage of the season pass price be allocated as income during those weeks.



With the data available to us today from scanning pass media and modern software capabilities, it's actually relatively easy to allocate deferred revenue from products like season passes. There's more than one way to go about it... some areas still recognize the revenue completely on the first day of the season, some split the revenue recognition evenly across each day of the operating season, and others get more granular and accurate (and thus more useful for the kind of decisions you're discussing). As an example of the latter, you could calculate average season pass usage in days (we'll call this x), divide the pass price by x giving us y, then recognize y dollars over the first x scans of each pass. Probably easier to look at a hypothetical scenario:

Great Big Ski Area sells season passes. Based on previous seasons' data, Great Big Ski Area knows that its adult passholders ski an average of 12 days per season. Adult passes to Great Big Ski Area cost $899. $899/12 = $74.92. Therefore on each of the first 12 scans of each adult pass, $74.92 of revenue is recognized. As the seasons come and go, the ski area has more and more data about when and how much passholders are skiing, and all of that data helps inform decisions about opening/closing/etc.

That's a bit of a simplified scenario, and obviously there are always outliers. But it should give you the gist that it's not too hard to pin down the profitability of really any day of the season, as this method can be applied to any multi-day, deferred revenue product. The single-day revenue is obviously quite easy to track (e.g. f&b, single lessons, day tickets, etc.). Comparing daily actuals + deferred recognition to actual operating expenses tells you all you need to know about operational profitability on a daily basis, and analyzing trends over multiple years allows ski area operators to make informed decisions about things like opening/closing dates.

Now whether or not profitability is or should be the only consideration is another topic entirely.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I'm also having a hard time understanding how a company like Vail could determine if they make money or loose money in the few early or late season weeks of operation. With the majority of early/late season skiers being on season passes, I can't figure out how a company would determine what percentage of the season pass price be allocated as income during those weeks.


I think the only way to really tell that is to shorten the season length and see the affect it has on pass sales.  Only example I can think of that has done this is Killington during the Nyberg years.  They drastically reduced season length.  I recall there being a considerable drop in pass sales.   

Cat season length is not the only reason I choose it over Cannon, but it's certainly part of it.

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## cdskier (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Are there any cases where Vail has purchased a resort and reduced the number of operating days? Maybe out west, but I don't think that we have seen that occur over here on the east coast. Also, it seems that Vail is actually looking to expand their early and late season offerings with what they are doing at Keystone and Breckenridge.



Have they purchased anyone yet in the east that was a major early or late season player? Stowe never made a significant push in any recent years prior to Vail to open early or close late so Vail had no major reason to make any changes there.

As for expanding early/late season offerings out west, you'd have to think the primary driver of that was the loss of A-Basin and the fact that they obviously felt they needed some sort of early/late offering in that market. Will they feel the same in the east with Mt Snow and Wildcat? Will they decide to only have one of those early and late instead of both? Only time will tell...


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## machski (Sep 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Have they purchased anyone yet in the east that was a major early or late season player? Stowe never made a significant push in any recent years prior to Vail to open early or close late so Vail had no major reason to make any changes there.
> 
> As for expanding early/late season offerings out west, you'd have to think the primary driver of that was the loss of A-Basin and the fact that they obviously felt they needed some sort of early/late offering in that market. Will they feel the same in the east with Mt Snow and Wildcat? Will they decide to only have one of those early and late instead of both? Only time will tell...


True Stowe did not push for super early or late, but prior to Vail if April conditions warranted, I felt like they'd add a couple extra weeks.  Hasn't seemed like Vail would do that at Stowe now.  I think Okemo added a week this year under Vail but I know Sunapee closed quite early, more so than they would have previously.

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## BenedictGomez (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> *I'm also having a hard time understanding how a company like Vail could determine if they make money or loose money in the few early or late season weeks of operation. With the majority of early/late season skiers being on season passes*, I can't figure out how a company would determine what percentage of the season pass price be allocated as income during those weeks.



Actually it's now much easier to do that calculus for the very reason you note, the majority are on season passes.



machski said:


> True Stowe did not push for super early or late, but *prior to Vail if April conditions warranted, I felt like they'd add a couple extra weeks.  Hasn't seemed like Vail would do that at Stowe now.*



Early season makes no difference, but Stowe would have likely gone longer another week had it not been bought by Vail in the solid snow year.


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## thebigo (Sep 13, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Cat season length is not the only reason I choose it over Cannon, but it's certainly part of it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app




Would not consider a cannon pass again but my family will likely migrate to a combination of ragged and Ikon if they contract the season at wildcat. Ikon is a compelling option for those who value a long season in the east, just wish they had something unlimited in nh.


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## mbedle (Sep 13, 2019)

BushMogulMaster said:


> With the data available to us today from scanning pass media and modern software capabilities, it's actually relatively easy to allocate deferred revenue from products like season passes. There's more than one way to go about it... some areas still recognize the revenue completely on the first day of the season, some split the revenue recognition evenly across each day of the operating season, and others get more granular and accurate (and thus more useful for the kind of decisions you're discussing). As an example of the latter, you could calculate average season pass usage in days (we'll call this x), divide the pass price by x giving us y, then recognize y dollars over the first x scans of each pass. Probably easier to look at a hypothetical scenario:
> 
> Great Big Ski Area sells season passes. Based on previous seasons' data, Great Big Ski Area knows that its adult passholders ski an average of 12 days per season. Adult passes to Great Big Ski Area cost $899. $899/12 = $74.92. Therefore on each of the first 12 scans of each adult pass, $74.92 of revenue is recognized. As the seasons come and go, the ski area has more and more data about when and how much passholders are skiing, and all of that data helps inform decisions about opening/closing/etc.
> 
> ...



The only problem I see with that is that the typical early and late season skier is not your typical season pass holder. I do understand that with the availability of computers, scanners and pass holder data, there must be some way to estimate this.


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## mbedle (Sep 13, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Actually it's now much easier to do that calculus for the very reason you note, the majority are on season passes.
> 
> 
> 
> Early season makes no difference, but Stowe would have likely gone longer another week had it not been bought by Vail in the solid snow year.



I am not sure that is true about Stowe historically pushing for a couple of extra weeks or week if conditions warranted it. I've been skiing there for the past 8 years and have never seen the closing date change because of conditions.


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## mbedle (Sep 13, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Actually it's now much easier to do that calculus for the very reason you note, the majority are on season passes.
> 
> 
> 
> Early season makes no difference, but Stowe would have likely gone longer another week had it not been bought by Vail in the solid snow year.




How could it possibly be easier to calculate that number under a season pass senerio compared to actual daily window ticket purchases? That make not sense to me at all.


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## mbedle (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> How could it possibly be easier to calculate that number under a season pass senerio compared to actual daily window ticket purchases? That make not sense to me at all.



Alright, I take this back. At the end of the season, yes they would know exactly how much money they made (each season pass holder would have a per-visit $ amount available). I was thinking more in terms of the SEC quarterly reported earning and not having a final number of visits each early season skier actual was going to have.


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## cdskier (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I am not sure that is true about Stowe historically pushing for a couple of extra weeks or week if conditions warranted it. I've been skiing there for the past 8 years and have never seen the closing date change because of conditions.



I ski an hour down the road, but I still always actively watch Stowe's closing date for comparison. In the past 10 years or so that I've been keeping an eye on it, I can't recall it ever really being extended either due to conditions. Latest closing date for Stowe in the past 15 years was April 29 and that was in 2007. Typical date is in the high teens/early 20s of April. Certainly plenty of times they had the snow to go longer before Vail came in.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I am not sure that is true about Stowe historically pushing for a couple of extra weeks or week if conditions warranted it. I've been skiing there for the past 8 years and have never seen the closing date change because of conditions.


They did in the 90s and early 2000s.  Typical closing date had always been third full weekend in April. Good snow years they'd extend a week.  Never beyond that.  Even the monster 2000-2001 season that they could have easily made second weekend in May, they still closed last weekend of April.

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## deadheadskier (Sep 13, 2019)

jimk said:


> Still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Vail owns Wildcat
> Haven't been following this thread.  How do you and other Cat regulars feel about this?  I've read mixed feedback when other similar acquisitions took place - some don't like that their quiet, off-the-beaten-path mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant, others like that their financially shakey mtn has been taken over by a corporate giant.


Plusses and minuses.  Only thing I expect this year is a significant increase in F&B prices.  You could still get a burger and a beer in the bar for $20 pre-tip last season. That's very reasonable for a ski area.  I expect that to go up to $25.  

Plusses for me are obviously Epic local. Stowe was home for many years, so I'm psyched to have that back in play affordably. I've already booked our February vacation there this year instead of the Mt Washington Valley.  I also like that I'll have Sunapee available when conditions aren't worth the drive up north.  It's a more interesting place to ski groomers than Crotched. 

Concerns for Cat are the mentioned shortening of season length and eventually more snowmaking and grooming.  The thing I love about Cat is they only make snow and groom about 25 of their 48 trails.    I expect that number of manicured trails to go way up to around 40 eventually.  That will suck.  I'll forgive that if they cut some upper mountain glades.  They have a massive amount of acreage between several upper mountain trails that could be gladed if they do battle with the USFS.  They could double their official Glade acreage from 80 acres to 160.   Hopefully this increased investment means a faster trail roll out early season. They are quite conservative of when they'll make snow.  Except for opening Lynx up, they basically don't make snow unless there's at least a 24-36 hour window to do so. 

The other thing I'm concerned with is a change in ski patrol culture like has happened at Stowe.  It used to be at Stowe that they didn't really care when people ducked ropes. I'm told that is no longer the case and they suspend passes for offenders.  Wildcat is even more liberal in that regard.  They put ropes up mainly  to keep the tourists out. Regulars who don't mind trashing their bases they largely leave alone. I hope that doesn't change. 

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## abc (Sep 13, 2019)

If it changed for Stowe, it WILL change for the Cat!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 13, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Would not consider a cannon pass again but my family will likely migrate to a combination of ragged and Ikon if they contract the season at wildcat. Ikon is a compelling option for those who value a long season in the east, just wish they had something unlimited in nh.


Curious why you would not consider Cannon again? I'd easily take Cannon over Ragged. I got bored at Ragged after two years being a passholder.  Not enough bumps and the glades aren't open frequently enough. 

IMO Cannon has the best terrain in New Hampshire and probably top five in New England.  My top being Stowe, Smuggs, Sugarbush, Sugarloaf and Cannon.  Next five would be MRG, Jay, Cat, Saddleback and Magic. 

My preference for Cat over Cannon are

1. They groom far less of their terrain
2. I prefer big vertical off a TTB fast lift. Cannon doesn't really have that 
3. Smaller crowds and better snow conditions than Cannon because of that
4. Season length

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## drjeff (Sep 13, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Alright, I take this back. At the end of the season, yes they would know exactly how much money they made (each season pass holder would have a per-visit $ amount available). I was thinking more in terms of the SEC quarterly reported earning and not having a final number of visits each early season skier actual was going to have.


Now here's a stat about passholder use, that was presented at Sunday River this past week at an industry conference/trade show. The President of the National Ski Areas Association, Kelly Pawlak, the former GM of Mount Snow before accepting the offer to become President of the NSAA, presented some regional pass usage data. Across ALL reported passholders nationally, the Northeast had the highest average of days used per season pass sold per year, and that number was 13 days!!! 

I was surprised by that as I would of thought it would of been in the low 20's!! 

Again, hard industry data like this just goes to show that many of us AZ'ers, who are so passionate about this sport, just aren't indicative of your "average" skier/rider!! 

What really had me laughing, was when I asked my almost 16yr old daughter how many days she thought the average passholder in the East used their pass annually, and her answer, which is based on how many days she and many of her age cohort Mount Snow racer friends use their passes annually, was 40 days!! After she heard the actual number was 13, she said "Dad, we're just not normal, are we?" Lol!

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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Again, hard industry data like this just goes to show that do many of us AZ'ers, who are so passionate about this sport, *just aren't indicative of your "average" skier/rider!! *



Not even close. And most here, and every other ski-related forum/board commonly refuse to accept that fact.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 14, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I also like that I'll have Sunapee available when conditions aren't  worth the drive up north.  It's a more interesting place to ski groomers  than Crotched.



Interesting. I've not been to Sunapee in forever. I'll have to keep that in mind.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Now here's a stat about passholder use, that was presented at Sunday River this past week at an industry conference/trade show. The President of the National Ski Areas Association, Kelly Pawlak, the former GM of Mount Snow before accepting the offer to become President of the NSAA, presented some regional pass usage data. *Across ALL reported passholders nationally, the Northeast had the highest average of days used per season pass sold per year, and that number was 13 days!!! *
> 
> I was surprised by that as *I would of thought it would of been in the low 20's!! *



Ehhh..... does that include IKON & EPIC?    Because if it does, perhaps the "real" number is in the low 20s.  

At least in so much as what people typically think of as a skiing season pass.  If it does inlude those 2 mega-passes, that figure of 13 is 100% being artificially brought down.


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## drjeff (Sep 14, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ehhh..... does that include IKON & EPIC?    Because if it does, perhaps the "real" number is in the low 20s.
> 
> At least in so much as what people typically think of as a skiing season pass.  If it does inlude those 2 mega-passes, that figure of 13 is 100% being artificially brought down.


Yup. That was the Nationwide average of all passes. 

The northeast lead the way with 13 days per pass.

Now I'm sure there's a growing number of people who have 2 (or more) passes that play into those numbers. 

However I think that there's likely a sizeable number of folks, often from areas of the country where either there's not "local" skiing that are starting to buy a pass (Epic or IKON) for their one and only ski week of the year that factor into it.

When you consider the hundreds of thousands of Epic passes alone that are sold annually now, if you get say 25000 folks who live South of the Mason-Dixon line who take their once a year week to Colorado or Utah and only log 5 or 6 days for the entire season of their Epic pass, that's going to have a tangible effect on that annual average usage number for sure

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## BenedictGomez (Sep 15, 2019)

drjeff said:


> * if you get say 25000 folks who live South of the Mason-Dixon line who take their once a year week to Colorado or Utah and only log 5 or 6 days for the entire season of their Epic pass, that's going to have a tangible effect on that annual average usage number for sure*



It's going to be way, way, way > 25,000.   


Vail sells over 900k "passes" by itself, plus about 100k of those are those military passes, which are probably barely even used.  Then you have IKON which is over 250k penetration & ramping.  So that_ "13 average days"_ thing IMO is pretty much an irrelevant stat now, because the data used to calculate it has essentially been contaminated to the point where the output is no longer representative of what people think it means.


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## catskillman (Sep 16, 2019)

mbedle said:


> I'm also having a hard time understanding how a company like Vail could determine if they make money or loose money in the few early or late season weeks of operation. With the majority of early/late season skiers being on season passes, I can't figure out how a company would determine what percentage of the season pass price be allocated as income during those weeks.



Passes are scanned - they know everything.  
They write a query and voila.  
Technoligy is a wondderful thing


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 16, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Passes are scanned - *they know everything.  *
> They write a query and voila.
> Technoligy is a wondderful thing



Less than 24 hours after the PEAK Resorts acquisition announcement, I received an email from Vail that said, _"new mountains in your area are now EPIC"_.  They can do this because they have the home address & email address of everyone who's skied one of their resorts.  I'm surprised you dont have to scan your EPIC pass at lunch so they know if you like Diet Coke or Hawaiian Punch.


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## slatham (Sep 16, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Less than 24 hours after the PEAK Resorts acquisition announcement, I received an email from Vail that said, _"new mountains in your area are now EPIC"_.  They can do this because they have the home address & email address of everyone who's skied one of their resorts.  I'm surprised you dont have to scan your EPIC pass at lunch so they know if you like Diet Coke or Hawaiian Punch.



That will be soon. Use your Epic pass as credit card, get a discount for doing so (incentive for not using CC or cash), and then they have data on eating/drinking habits too.

Big (ski) brother


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## Domeskier (Sep 16, 2019)

13 day average doesn't seem particularly low to me.  That's at least once a week from mid-Dec to mid-March.


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## Tonyr (Sep 16, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> 13 day average doesn't seem particularly low to me.  That's at least once a week from mid-Dec to mid-March.



I've also heard from someone in the ski industry before that 12 days is around the average time a person skis per year.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 16, 2019)

Tonyr said:


> I've also heard from someone in the ski industry before that *12 days is around the average time a person skis per year.*



It's much lower than that.  I forget the exact number, but I want to say it's closer to 4 days.  I know someone here will remember it & share.

EDIT:  God helps those who help themselves.  It was 5.8 in 2017-2018 ^ 5.9 in 2016-2017.


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## mbedle (Sep 16, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's going to be way, way, way > 25,000.
> 
> 
> Vail sells over 900k "passes" by itself, plus about 100k of those are those military passes, which are probably barely even used.  Then you have IKON which is over 250k penetration & ramping.  So that_ "13 average days"_ thing IMO is pretty much an irrelevant stat now, because the data used to calculate it has essentially been contaminated to the point where the output is no longer representative of what people think it means.



What do you mean that the data has been contaminated? Contaminated by what? Not sure what you are trying to say here.


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## slatham (Sep 16, 2019)

mbedle said:


> What do you mean that the data has been contaminated? Contaminated by what? Not sure what you are trying to say here.



I think he means that the old season pass data, which was based on old fashion single-area season passes, is not comparable to current data that now is heavily influenced by multi-area passes. Completely different dynamic - apples and oranges.


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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2019)

slatham said:


> I think he means that the old season pass data, which was based on old fashion single-area season passes, is not comparable to current data that now is heavily influenced by multi-area passes. Completely different dynamic - apples and oranges.



Another interesting fact that changes the dynamic...the break even point has rather significantly shifted. Years ago at many areas you needed to ski 20+ days to break even on a pass. Now that number is often 10 days or in some cases even lower. Let's use Stowe as a concrete example of this. In 2012/2013, you had to use your pass 23 days before you were ahead. Now it is down to under 7 days. So now someone taking a vacation for a week could easily consider a pass just for that vacation and never use it again the rest of the season. People that purchase it for that type of scenario are driving that number of days per passholder down further where years ago that was unlikely to happen as buying a pass meant you had to commit to quite a few days just to break even. So in 2012 for example if you purchased a Stowe pass and only skied 10 days, you were losing quite a bit of money.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 16, 2019)

slatham said:


> I think he means that the old season pass data, which was based on old fashion* single-area season passes, is not comparable to current data that now is heavily influenced by multi-area passes. Completely different dynamic - apples and oranges.*



Correct.


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## slatham (Sep 16, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Another interesting fact that changes the dynamic...the break even point has rather significantly shifted. Years ago at many areas you needed to ski 20+ days to break even on a pass. Now that number is often 10 days or in some cases even lower. Let's use Stowe as a concrete example of this. In 2012/2013, you had to use your pass 23 days before you were ahead. Now it is down to under 7 days. So now someone taking a vacation for a week could easily consider a pass just for that vacation and never use it again the rest of the season. People that purchase it for that type of scenario are driving that number of days per passholder down further where years ago that was unlikely to happen as buying a pass meant you had to commit to quite a few days just to break even. So in 2012 for example if you purchased a Stowe pass and only skied 10 days, you were losing quite a bit of money.



Yes this is me this winter. Heading to Taos to ski with my brother (3-4 days) and at least one trip to Sugarbush to ski with my Brother in Law. So I bought the Ikon base pass. With these 2 trips I've basically broken even. So a second Sugarbush trip, a jaunt to Killington and a trek across the valley to Stratton is all gravy. But even if everything comes together I doubt I get more than 10 days. So that skews the "average" number of days skied on the pass lower, yet I do better than day tickets.


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## kingslug (Sep 17, 2019)

The minute I got an Epic pass and started going to Stowe my day count went from 30 to 40. Now with Hunter on it, it could go higher as I can just take a day off and ski in peace mid week up there.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

kingslug said:


> The minute I got an Epic pass and started going to Stowe my day count went from 30 to 40. Now with Hunter on it, it could go higher as I can just take a day off and ski in peace mid week up there.



Didnt you buy real estate in Stowe?  That's why your days went up, not because of EPIC.  It's not like you'd buy real estate & then refuse to buy a Stowe season pass.


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## kendo (Sep 17, 2019)

kingslug said:


> The minute I got an Epic pass and started going to Stowe my day count went from 30 to 40. Now with Hunter on it, it could go higher as I can just take a day off and ski in peace mid week up there.



Same here. Big bump in annual days using Epic.  Prior Traveler mid wk pass for Hunter and skied most Fridays.  Added Epic last year and took 4 Sun-Thurs trips to Stowe plus a wk at Telluride.  Already booked the same for this yr and will throw in random Fridays at Hunter at no additional cost.


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## kingslug (Sep 19, 2019)

We bought there because the epic made it reasonable. A season pass before that was pretty expensive and limiting. We also moved closer to Stowe..as in CT so its only...a 5 hour drive. 
My wife didn't ski one day and went shopping...apparently for a condo..and not a hat..


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## drjeff (Sep 19, 2019)

The stockholders proxy vote on the merger is scheduled for tomorrow, September 20th


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## cdskier (Sep 20, 2019)

drjeff said:


> The stockholders proxy vote on the merger is scheduled for tomorrow, September 20th



Stockholders approved. 89% voted in favor. Targeting September 24th to close, although not sure if the lawsuits could delay/stop that.


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## andrec10 (Sep 21, 2019)

Come on and close. I need to upgrade my Peak pass to a Epic pass...


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## abc (Sep 21, 2019)

kingslug said:


> My wife didn't ski one day and went shopping...apparently for a condo..and not a hat..


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## andrec10 (Sep 24, 2019)

The closing was today...

https://www.epicpass.com/info/peak-resorts-release.aspx


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## njdiver85 (Sep 24, 2019)

So upgrade price assuming you bought your Peak Pass early will be $310 to get the unlimited Epic Pass.


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> So upgrade price assuming you bought your Peak Pass early will be $310 to get the unlimited Epic Pass.



Depends on what Epic pass product that you're interested in and when when you bought your Peak pass as I understand it.  The details of all the options I'm guessing will be released in the very near future.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2019)

I purchased early bird Peak for $629.  My understanding is my upgrade charge to get to Epic local is $70. 

Take my money

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## cdskier (Sep 24, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Depends on what Epic pass product that you're interested in and when when you bought your Peak pass as I understand it.  The details of all the options I'm guessing will be released in the very near future.



The details are pretty much in the FAQ right now. If you purchased your Peaks pass prior to 7/22 (when the merger was announced), you pay the difference based on the Epic prices as of the announcement date. If you purchased after the merger was announced, you pay the difference of whatever the price is today (or rather on the day you call to upgrade).


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## andrec10 (Sep 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I purchased early bird Peak for $629.  My understanding is my upgrade charge to get to Epic local is $70.
> 
> Take my money
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app




Its 40$. Just called them. Its a no brainer! I get to ski at Park City for 40$ for a week. I am gooood with that!


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 24, 2019)

Sweet! 

So A10, you bought Full Peak Early bird and it was only $40 to upgrade to Epic Local?


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## andrec10 (Sep 24, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Sweet!
> 
> So A10, you bought Full Peak Early bird and it was only $40 to upgrade to Epic Local?



Yes!


----------



## FBGM (Sep 24, 2019)

Nice. It’s done. Let’s get some people fired now.


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## andrec10 (Sep 24, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Nice. It’s done. Let’s get some people fired now.



Real nice. How would you like to be on the receiving end.....


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## thebigo (Sep 24, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Its 40$. Just called them. Its a no brainer! I get to ski at Park City for 40$ for a week. I am gooood with that!



How did they calculate $40? I thought it was $70. Are they going to mail your pass or do you have to pick it up?


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## andrec10 (Sep 24, 2019)

thebigo said:


> How did they calculate $40? I thought it was $70. Are they going to mail your pass or do you have to pick it up?



 I paid 629 for the early bird Peak Pass. The early bird Epic local is 669. They charge 3 bucks to mail it. I said fine.


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2019)

thebigo said:


> How did they calculate $40? I thought it was $70. Are they going to mail your pass or do you have to pick it up?



Looks like for everyone who had bought the Peak pass products before the merger was announced that Vail decided to use the cost of an Epic pass product on that date (7/22) instead of the 9/1 date when the last increaes happened as many had thought they would.

A nice gesture to those Peak pass early purchasers on the part of Vail to help say "welcome" to the family. Can't say that as a beneficiary of that, that me and the other 3 Peak passholding members of my family are complaining as our travels for races and just plain old fun days on the hill will have us likely at 3 or 4 Epic resorts that our Peak passes wouldn't have covered this season


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Nice. It’s done. Let’s get some people fired now.



Hate to brake it to you, but your "pink slip jubilation party" is going to have to wait until at least the end of this ski season...

One of Rob Katz's formal statements today. And I'm changing the color of his text that directly pertains to this...

"InsideEpic.com

Today, I am excited to share that the following 17 ski areas have joined Vail Resorts, bringing our total number of resorts to 37:
• Mount Snow in Vermont
• Hunter Mountain in New York
• Attitash Mountain Resort, Wildcat Mountain and Crotched Mountain in New Hampshire
• Liberty Mountain Resort, Roundtop Mountain Resort, Whitetail Resort, Jack Frost and Big Boulder in Pennsylvania
• Alpine Valley, Boston Mills, Brandywine and Mad River Mountain in Ohio
• Hidden Valley and Snow Creek in Missouri
• Paoli Peaks in Indiana
These additional offerings near major urban areas including New York, Boston, Washington, D.C., Baltimore, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Columbus, St. Louis, Kansas City and Louisville will expand access and diversify the experiences available to our guests.
In anticipation of this milestone, we recently announced that Doug Pierini, currently COO, Okemo and Northeast region, will expand his leadership responsibility to oversee the newly formed Midwest and Mid-Atlantic regions that include the 17 Peak Resorts ski areas.
We have carefully considered the alignment of the new ski areas within the Vail Resorts operating model,and in order to maintain business continuity and tap into their knowledge of their unique resorts, each of the general managers and senior leadership teams that are located in resort will remain in their roles as part of this new regional leadership structure reporting into Doug effective today. Please see here for more details.
From an operations perspective, we are focused on ramp-up for the upcoming winter season and are committed to minimizing disruption. We plan on spending the next several months understanding the current systems and processes in order to build a robust integration plan, with the majority of the critical integration activities taking place following the 2019-2020 season. I hope you will all join me in welcoming what will be more than 10,000 new employees to Vail Resorts on this very exciting day for our Company.
Rob
Rob Katz
Chief Executive Officer"


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## thebigo (Sep 24, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Looks like for everyone who had bought the Peak pass products before the merger was announced that Vail decided to use the cost of an Epic pass product on that date (7/22) instead of the 9/1 date when the last increaes happened as many had thought they would.
> 
> A nice gesture to those Peak pass early purchasers on the part of Vail to help say "welcome" to the family. Can't say that as a beneficiary of that, that me and the other 3 Peak passholding members of my family are complaining as our travels for races and just plain old fun days on the hill will have us likely at 3 or 4 Epic resorts that our Peak passes wouldn't have covered this season



I called on the way home and was told it would cost my wife and I $70 each to swap from peak to epic local and we  bought in march. $40 vs $70 isn't a big deal but it would be $310 for my older daughter to switch. Not worth $450 for a few days at sunapee. 

Does vail do the ski free in the spring with early buy deal? When does epic typically go on sale?

Was disappointed to be told they do not offer a direct to lift pass for kids under 5, waiting in line everyday for a ticket will get old fast.


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## andrec10 (Sep 24, 2019)

thebigo said:


> I called on the way home and was told it would cost my wife and I $70 each to swap from peak to epic local and we  bought in march. $40 vs $70 isn't a big deal but it would be $310 for my older daughter to switch. Not worth $450 for a few days at sunapee.
> 
> Does vail do the ski free in the spring with early buy deal? When does epic typically go on sale?
> 
> Was disappointed to be told they do not offer a direct to lift pass for kids under 5, waiting in line everyday for a ticket will get old fast.


 Check with your local mtn on this.


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2019)

thebigo said:


> I called on the way home and was told it would cost my wife and I $70 each to swap from peak to epic local and we  bought in march. $40 vs $70 isn't a big deal but it would be $310 for my older daughter to switch. Not worth $450 for a few days at sunapee.
> 
> Does vail do the ski free in the spring with early buy deal? When does epic typically go on sale?
> 
> Was disappointed to be told they do not offer a direct to lift pass for kids under 5, waiting in line everyday for a ticket will get old fast.


I have from a very good source, and new as of today Vail Resorts employee, who knows a wee bit about the marketing side of this, that there will very soon be a chart put out with the upgrade costs based on when you purchased your Peak pass product

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## slatham (Sep 24, 2019)

"We plan on spending the next several months understanding the current systems and processes in order to build a robust integration plan, with the majority of the critical integration activities taking place following the 2019-2020 season."

Next year is when the changes will come, ala Stowe and Okemo. Not advisable or in some cases even possible to make changes at this point for the upcoming season. Hope its not a cluster F*^#.


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## cdskier (Sep 24, 2019)

slatham said:


> "We plan on spending the next several months understanding the current systems and processes in order to build a robust integration plan, with the majority of the critical integration activities taking place following the 2019-2020 season."
> 
> Next year is when the changes will come, ala Stowe and Okemo. Not advisable or in some cases even possible to make changes at this point for the upcoming season. Hope its not a cluster F*^#.



Yup...no major changes this year should have been completely expected. Put another way, the quote from Katz is essentially saying "we need time to figure out what you're doing now so we can figure out who/what is expendable and what can be done by our existing corporate staff in CO." Pretty standard in many large mergers.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yup...no major changes this year should have been completely expected. Put another way, the quote from Katz is essentially saying "we need time to figure out what you're doing now so we can figure out who/what is expendable and what can be done by our existing corporate staff in CO." Pretty standard in many large mergers.


You also figure that with Peaks bringing 10000 employees (and yes I know the vast majority are seasonal, low level employees) that it's not like Vail could cut thousands of existing Peak jobs and still be able to fully operate those resorts....

Guessing the mid to high level, year round employees of Peak now get that the have a year, to show why their full-time employment, and or advancement through Vail Resorts, is warranted. That's a big potential opportunity

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## njdiver85 (Sep 25, 2019)

Does anyone know what type of pass Mount Snow instructors and junior instructors will be given for the 2019/20 season?  Peak Pass or Epic,etc?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Guessing the mid to high level, year round employees of Peak now get that the have a year, to show why their full-time employment, and or advancement through Vail Resorts, is warranted. That's a big potential opportunity



Depends how "high" you mean, because those _"mid-to-high-level, year round employees"_ are precisely the ones who need to worry about their job come May 2020.  Or who may not want to relocate across country to Colorado.


----------



## urungus (Sep 25, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Does vail do the ski free in the spring with early buy deal? When does epic typically go on sale?



Unfortunately not.  I bought my Epic pass in the spring and their customer service confirmed that I would have to wait until the fall to use it.  As a point of comparison, the Ikon pass does have that benefit.


----------



## FBGM (Sep 25, 2019)

Lol at last 4 posts saying exactly what I said. 

Make Mount Snow Great Again 2020. Fire the low hanging fruit. Thin the idiot herd.


----------



## thebigo (Sep 25, 2019)

urungus said:


> Unfortunately not.  I bought my Epic pass in the spring and their customer service confirmed that I would have to wait until the fall to use it.  As a point of comparison, the Ikon pass does have that benefit.



Thanks for the reply but that sucks, what sense does that make?

Guess it will be killington spring passes rather than a week at breckenridge in april.


----------



## RichT (Sep 25, 2019)

As veterans, our $649 pass is now $549....rebates for us! :flag:



cdskier said:


> The details are pretty much in the FAQ right now. If you purchased your Peaks pass prior to 7/22 (when the merger was announced), you pay the difference based on the Epic prices as of the announcement date. If you purchased after the merger was announced, you pay the difference of whatever the price is today (or rather on the day you call to upgrade).


----------



## machski (Sep 27, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Depends how "high" you mean, because those _"mid-to-high-level, year round employees"_ are precisely the ones who need to worry about their job come May 2020.  Or who may not want to relocate across country to Colorado.


Not fully buying this now.  Sure, some things may get pulled central to Broomfield, but my guess is Vail has so many East coast areas now that they set up an East Coast office.  May just be on the operations side more, but I think they will go in this direction.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 27, 2019)

machski said:


> Not fully buying this now.  Sure, some things may get pulled central to Broomfield, but my guess is *Vail has so many East coast areas now that they set up an East Coast office.*  May just be on the operations side more, but* I think they will go in this direction.*



You think they're going to open up an east coast office?   Not happening.  Unless it's so tiny it's next to a Subway in a strip mall.  Vail is not Google.   

Opening up an east coast building runs completely counter to their business model, and would not be well-received by Wall Street.  The entire point is consolidation and elimination of COGS, of which, salaries & wages are almost certainly the #1 contributor.  People (sadly) are going to be laid-off.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 2, 2019)

ss20 said:


> So back to Mount Snow...I got a copy of the Mount Snow magazine for 2019-2020.  There's a whole article on Sunbrook enhancements.  Little Dipper is now a beginner trail with snowmaking and has been widened.  They also "moved" many trails within the Sunbrook complex.  The "new" beginner Little Dipper runs from Little Dipper, to Big Dipper, onto Moonbeam.  Lower Big Dipper is now Moonbeam.  The article also had the GM saying how they want to get to 100% snowmaking within the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Also a quick glimpse at the 2020 trail map did not have snowmaking on Fool's Gold over in Carinthia.  Dr Jeff saw pipes with his own eyes so I'm thinking the map was rushed out to production (but it did have Little Dipper as a beginner trail).
> 
> ...



Well I'll be damned...they changed their mind....



They posted a video on Youtube about their snowmaking improvements and didn't say anything about Little Dipper being a beginner trail, but did talk about how it was going to be re-routed and have snowmaking added.  Also confirmed Fool's Gold on Carinthia with snowmaking and having small features.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 2, 2019)

Opening bid for this limited edition Mount Snow Magazine is $300...;-)


----------



## drjeff (Oct 2, 2019)

ss20 said:


> Well I'll be damned...they changed their mind....
> 
> View attachment 25436
> 
> They posted a video on Youtube about their snowmaking improvements and didn't say anything about Little Dipper being a beginner trail, but did talk about how it was going to be re-routed and have snowmaking added.  Also confirmed Fool's Gold on Carinthia with snowmaking and having small features.



Can't say that I'm totally surprised that they kept the "new" Little Dipper route an intermediate trail. The top section, which used to be Moonwalk has enough of a pitch where it met into Little Dipper (now Moonwalk) before, and the bottom section, which used to be Moonbeam where it broke off from Little Dipper also had a pitch more than they probably wanted someone who is just progressing off of say Long John on, regardless of how much widening and grading they can do.

Me and the camera will have to take another hike Columbus Day weekend and see what the finished product looks like first hand


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2019)

https://www.vpr.org/post/sale-ski-resorts-including-vts-mount-snow-benefits-owners-purdue-pharma


----------



## JimG. (Oct 2, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> https://www.vpr.org/post/sale-ski-resorts-including-vts-mount-snow-benefits-owners-purdue-pharma



So basically the Sackler's will throw them a $3B bone and then provide rescue drugs for the overdoses from their opioids.

Such a deal. That's chutzpah.


----------



## jaytrem (Oct 2, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Can't say that I'm totally surprised that they kept the "new" Little Dipper route an intermediate trail. The top section, which used to be Moonwalk has enough of a pitch where it met into Little Dipper (now Moonwalk) before, and the bottom section, which used to be Moonbeam where it broke off from Little Dipper also had a pitch more than they probably wanted someone who is just progressing off of say Long John on, regardless of how much widening and grading they can do.
> 
> Me and the camera will have to take another hike Columbus Day weekend and see what the finished product looks like first hand



I hiked it on Monday, was surprised how far into the woods they put the pipes.  Guess that makes it easy to widen the trail later if they want to.  For now it keeps the trail looking more natural, very nice!  I remember skiing back there as a kid before they put in the quad and new trails.  You really felt like you were in the middle of nowhere.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 10, 2019)

Vail resorts making a move to acquire the repossessed snowguns at the Hermitage...

https://brattlebororeformer-vt.news...2HAF-IqGdZ2_bC4TosbibuIrblXxjObu8khDxDAEGMnlg


----------



## Edd (Oct 10, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Vail resorts making a move to acquire the repossessed snowguns at the Hermitage...
> 
> https://brattlebororeformer-vt.news...2HAF-IqGdZ2_bC4TosbibuIrblXxjObu8khDxDAEGMnlg



There’s what looks like a link to page 3, which may have snowgun info but I can’t seem to navigate there. I wonder where they want to deploy them. MS makes sense but they seem pretty stacked as it is. 

“Stalking horse” is a term I was unfamiliar with.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 10, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Vail resorts making a move to acquire the repossessed snowguns at the Hermitage...
> 
> https://brattlebororeformer-vt.news...2HAF-IqGdZ2_bC4TosbibuIrblXxjObu8khDxDAEGMnlg



Any idea if they are fan or air/water?


----------



## drjeff (Oct 10, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Any idea if they are fan or air/water?



Not sure.

I know that they had a mix of Techno Alpin fanguns and the orange HKD air/water towers that one now sees at most every resort, all of which were of "new" vintage, and have low use hours on them currently.  Who knows if it's 1 kind or the other or both based on how that article written??


----------



## machski (Oct 10, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Any idea if they are fan or air/water?


IIRC, it was the Fan Guns that were repossessed, due to their mobility and ease of removal.  I think all the air tower HKD guns are still there.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mbedle (Oct 10, 2019)

From some article about Lakeland Bank - "The approximately 46 snow guns and two tower-mounted TechnoAlpin fans" and "The bank said last July [2018], the equipment had been appraised at $365,000".


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 10, 2019)

machski said:


> IIRC, it was the Fan Guns that were repossessed, due to their mobility and ease of removal.  I think all the air tower HKD guns are still there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



The tower guns are actually far easier to remove than fans. Two people can remove them from the bracket without any equipment and lower to a Ranger, etc to move around the hill.

I would think the Impulses would be more "tasty" to them than the TAs. Peaks and Vail (East) are generally SMI and HKD fan customers, but who knows if the price is right anything could happen.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 10, 2019)

The southcentral PA resorts use a mix of TA and Areco fan guns. Although my local place Ski Roundtop just got a whole trailer full of HKD Impulse towers in the other day, which they've also been adding and replacing ratniks with.


----------



## FBGM (Oct 10, 2019)

Dem TA fans are the best product out there. Scoop them up. Super easy to move just gots to have power. And water. Does sons of bitches can push upwards of 400gpm depending on model. And all auto. Not that anyone in the east coast knows auto. They would rather spend the money on $11/hr snowmakers who smoke the weeds and point guns into the woods.


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 10, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Not sure.
> 
> I know that they had a mix of Techno Alpin fanguns and the orange HKD air/water towers that one now sees at most every resort, all of which were of "new" vintage, and have low use hours on them currently.  Who knows if it's 1 kind or the other or both based on how that article written??



The original loan was for 720K.  Almost has to be all or mostly fans.  Hkd air/water towers arent 15,000 each


----------



## drjeff (Oct 10, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> The original loan was for 720K.  Almost has to be all or mostly fans.  Hkd air/water towers arent 15,000 each


Having skied there, while it was open a few seasons ago, while they certainly had a number of techno-alpin fan guns, they also had a decent number of HKD's in all their orange colored glory lining a number of trails off the summit, in the witches area, and a number of other trails generally to skiers/riders right of their 6 pack as you headed down to their "clubhouse" (main lodge) 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 11, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Dem TA fans are the best product out there. Scoop them up. Super easy to move just gots to have power. And water. Does sons of bitches can push upwards of 400gpm depending on model. And all auto. Not that anyone in the east coast knows auto. They would rather spend the money on $11/hr snowmakers who smoke the weeds and point guns into the woods.



No. The max a 2" hose can push is a little over 200 GPM and 180 to 200 is the design max for the TF10, their largest model. Most people use 1.5" hose, so down to around 150 GPM, and you need good pressure and insane wet bulb to hit design max.

Many areas have automated fans in the East.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 11, 2019)

Ski Roundtop has TA Automated Slope and 3 or 4 Aerco Automated Slopes.  They still tend to walk the line and reposition and  power up and off the fans though.  I think its so the lines don't freeze to be honest.  The automation comes with not having to adjust each fan guns output as conditions change.  when they are in full production mode with their air/water and fan guns its an impressive site for a little mole hill in PA.  They pump out 4000 GPM.  I believe they put in a 500 GPM booster pump to increase the capacity this summer.


----------



## FBGM (Oct 11, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> No. The max a 2" hose can push is a little over 200 GPM and 180 to 200 is the design max for the TF10, their largest model. Most people use 1.5" hose, so down to around 150 GPM, and you need good pressure and insane wet bulb to hit design max.
> 
> Many areas have automated fans in the East.



Except the tf10 can get two hoses hooked up to it. Boom. You do the math. Make the snows. 

Who got auto? Some lil mole hill with like 35 guns? That actually would be smart and sweet


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 11, 2019)

Is that standard? I used one 3 season ago, single 2" inlet. That is impressive...

I prefer the HKD Diablo over all fans - due to the ability to change the stream with a lever and sheer simplicity. 

I don't consider 35 guns a mole hill. Regardless - Wachusett is automated (HKD Klik), Ragged has 2 automated trails (HKD Klik), Suicide 6 has 1 trail this year (TAs), Stowe has 36 automated fans (SMI), the list goes on... You're not going to see hills entirely automated, but it's certainly out there on core trails.


----------



## FBGM (Oct 11, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Is that standard? I used one 3 season ago, single 2" inlet. That is impressive...
> 
> I prefer the HKD Diablo over all fans - due to the ability to change the stream with a lever and sheer simplicity.
> 
> I don't consider 35 guns a mole hill. Regardless - Wachusett is automated (HKD Klik), Ragged has 2 automated trails (HKD Klik), Suicide 6 has 1 trail this year (TAs), Stowe has 36 automated fans (SMI), the list goes on... You're not going to see hills entirely automated, but it's certainly out there on core trails.



It was a bunch of years back. Before the TF10 really came over to the states so maybe it was some one off thing. I vaguely remember the Puma being up there with Gpm - looking at the computer and it was saying like 260gpm. It’s been a while but one them suckers had the ability for 2 hoses to go into it. 

Auto should have been the future 5 years ago. Press button. Make snow. Auto from compressors to pumps to guns. Can even do it on your phone. I was involved in some cool ski area shit back in the day.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 11, 2019)

This thread has taken an unexpectedly wonky (and dorky) turn.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 11, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> This thread has taken an unexpectedly wonky (and dorky) turn.



Sure has...


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Is that standard? I used one 3 season ago, single 2" inlet. That is impressive...
> 
> I prefer the HKD Diablo over all fans - due to the ability to change the stream with a lever and sheer simplicity.
> 
> I don't consider 35 guns a mole hill. Regardless - Wachusett is automated (HKD Klik), Ragged has 2 automated trails (HKD Klik), Suicide 6 has 1 trail this year (TAs), Stowe has 36 automated fans (SMI), the list goes on... You're not going to see hills entirely automated, but it's certainly out there on core trails.


When I worked at Wisp in Maryland, their entire system was automated.  

http://www.snowmakers.com/wisp.html

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## abc (Oct 11, 2019)

That explains why FB doesn't bother with "threads". You just ramble on and on...

It bugs the hell out of me. But I'm accepting that's what the majority want. Random topics that came up...


----------



## JimG. (Oct 11, 2019)

I believe that Racer's Edge at Hunter had the first automated snowmaking install.

A relatively lame segue back on topic.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 11, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I believe that Racer's Edge at Hunter had the first automated snowmaking install.
> 
> A relatively lame segue back on topic.



Yes, it was the first in the country. Course, without Bruce there last year, no one had any idea how to run it...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 11, 2019)

wasn't sure what thread this really belongs in...

keystone officially opening tomorrow. congrats to keystone and the evil empire for winning the race to open. 

so excited that lift served skiing in the usa starts tomorrow.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 11, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wasn't sure what thread this really belongs in...
> 
> keystone officially opening tomorrow. congrats to keystone and the evil empire for winning the race to open.
> 
> so excited that lift served skiing in the usa starts tomorrow.



Might Bode well for MT Snow and a early opening.


----------



## mtl1076 (Oct 11, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> wasn't sure what thread this really belongs in...
> 
> keystone officially opening tomorrow. congrats to keystone and the evil empire for winning the race to open.
> 
> so excited that lift served skiing in the usa starts tomorrow.



Abasin opened today.....


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2019)

mtl1076 said:


> Abasin opened today.....



The rebels are one step ahead...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 11, 2019)

mtl1076 said:


> Abasin opened today.....



saw that. love it. literally 10 minutes after keystone announced. 

A-basin - "Hold my beer..."


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 11, 2019)

we've seen that gamesmanship between Sunday River and Killington in the East.  One announces an opening, then the other beats them to the punch either late afternoon the day prior or spins a lift earlier the next morning

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## ss20 (Oct 11, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> we've seen that gamesmanship between Sunday River and Killington in the East.  One announces an opening, then the other beats them to the punch either late afternoon the day prior or spins a lift earlier the next morning
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I liked the year after Irene Sunday River explicitly opened at 9:01am to let Killington open at 9am to be the first to open.


----------



## chuckstah (Oct 11, 2019)

ss20 said:


> I liked the year after Irene Sunday River explicitly opened at 9:01am to let Killington open at 9am to be the first to open.


On paper only. Lifts loaded not much past 8 IIRC. But that was a nice gesture. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## catskillman (Oct 16, 2019)

everyone in town is reading the book 

Powder Burn by Daniel Glick

Arson, money and mystery on Vail Mountain.

Had to order it, based on what I am hearing.  Hope it comes today.  Crazy.....


----------



## drjeff (Oct 16, 2019)

Did my family's Peak to Epic Local upgrade yesterday. Easy experience. Spent more time waiting on hold than the actual process took for the 4 of our passes to be changed.

Should be arriving in the mail in about a week apparently, as not until next year will any of the acquired Peak resorts apparently be able to print Epic pass products onsite


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 16, 2019)

How much was the upgrade for adults?

Sent from my SM-G930V using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Oct 16, 2019)

Roughly $40, which I will of more than made up the weekend before Christmas when my kids have a race at Okemo

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 16, 2019)

Good to know.  I will likely call on Friday to upgrade my peak Pass to Epic Local.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 16, 2019)

It was easy to upgrade, just waited about 55 mins on hold....Skiing at Park City for a week for 40 bucks, I'll take it!


----------



## thebigo (Oct 17, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> It was easy to upgrade, just waited about 55 mins on hold....Skiing at Park City for a week for 40 bucks, I'll take it!



Looks like you could also check out snowbasin for a day or two assuming you will have a car.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 17, 2019)

Snowbasin is definitely worth a day, and the drive from Park City is beautiful (assuming you take the route along the back rather than the front).


----------



## kingslug (Oct 17, 2019)

Almost all the resorts in Utah are an easy drive. My wife has decided she likes Park City so we base out of there now and can drive anywhere else we want. Me..I prefer to stay at Snowbird but she equates it to a prison.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 17, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Almost all the resorts in Utah are an easy drive. My wife has decided she likes Park City so we base out of there now and can drive anywhere else we want. Me..*I prefer to stay at Snowbird* but* she equates it to a prison*.



I wouldn't go that far, but it is quite limiting & institutional looking.  

My experience there last year was very off-putting though, I dont know that I've ever had a similar tourism experience in my life where the employees were so universally miserable, and so universally bad-mouthing their employer in a 100% voluntary fashion (i.e. I never asked).  And stuff closed willy-nilly rather than at their published time, it was just a bad experience.  Honestly, the only way I'd stay there again is if I had confidence in a given storm modeling & wanted to be on-site ahead of it.


----------



## RichT (Oct 17, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Good to know.  I will likely call on Friday to upgrade my peak Pass to Epic Local.



Did mine yesterday, got the Epic local military and $100 refund! It's good to be a veteran!:flag:


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 18, 2019)

thank you for your service!


----------



## RichT (Oct 18, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> thank you for your service!



You are very welcome.


----------



## skinowworklater (Oct 19, 2019)

:flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::flag:

Thank you for your service to our country!


----------



## dblskifanatic (Oct 19, 2019)

RichT said:


> Did mine yesterday, got the Epic local military and $100 refund! It's good to be a veteran!:flag:



We got the Epic Veteran and the Epic Veteran Dependents - sons season pass was $309 as a 17 year old.  It is limited toVail owned resorts which is fine by us.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2019)

For the Peaks people, how long did it take for Peaks to refund the cost of the Peak Pass?


----------



## drjeff (Oct 22, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> For the Peaks people, how long did it take for Peaks to refund the cost of the Peak Pass?



I was told it would be in the neighborhood of 7 to 10 business days.  I'll see if that happens by the end of this week, which would be that time frame


----------



## ski&soccermom (Oct 22, 2019)

I upgraded on 10/16 and do not have a refund yet...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 22, 2019)

Its kind of annoying they are doing it this way.  I'm certain this has something to do with back end accounting.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 22, 2019)

Upgraded a week ago and still no email! Checked with Mt. Snow Peak Pass office and they don't have me on the List for a refund. Called and waited on hold for Vail , only to be told I am on the list. Told rep, I will put it in dispute with Amex by tomorrow if I don't hear back. She said ok. Some operation. They just want your money!


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 22, 2019)

So Vail explicitly said they were processing your refund but you are going to dispute it anyways? 

You can thank our wonderful credit card industry, but you never get a refund instantaneously unless it is cash.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 22, 2019)

i spaced on cancelling an expedia hotel room. i was totally in the wrong, but disputed it anyway. it took about 6 weeks but i ended up getting the refund. cool story hansel.


----------



## abc (Oct 22, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> So Vail explicitly said they were processing your refund but you are going to dispute it anyways?


I see nothing wrong about disputing a charge when expecting a refund. 

The last time I disputed a charge (not a refund), one of the acceptable "reason for dispute" was precisely "Expecting a refund" (or something like that).

Technically (legally?), there's a time limit on disputing a charge (amount, in this case). So to keep within the legal limit, sometimes it's necessary to "dispute" an expected refund. Just in case the refund doesn't materialize for any reason. So you don't lose your legal rights to dispute it because you waited too long. 

Now, if I trust the business to process the refund "in due course", I will save myself the hassle of "disputing" an expected refund. But if I have any doubt on the business I'm dealing with, I will dispute it to protect myself. 

When the refund came in, the dispute will be considered "resolved". Most credit card companies handle that quite smoothly.


----------



## AdironRider (Oct 22, 2019)

So you think that Vail, a publicly traded company mind you, is going to welch on refunds?

I know it is fun to hate on Vail, but this seems like a bout of paranoia or you are just a lawyer. 

Credit card companies deliberately hold back your money for a couple days in a sweep account to make interest on it. This is the tradeoff you make when you purchase using credit. Also, they do the same to Vail when you make a purchase. That money doesn't hit Vail's account without a delay of at least 1-2 business days.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 22, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> So you think that Vail, a publicly traded company mind you, is going to welch on refunds?
> 
> I know it is fun to hate on Vail, but this seems like a bout of paranoia or you are just a lawyer.
> 
> Credit card companies deliberately hold back your money for a couple days in a sweep account to make interest on it. This is the tradeoff you make when you purchase using credit. Also, they do the same to Vail when you make a purchase. That money doesn't hit Vail's account without a delay of at least 1-2 business days.



Read my post. Vail said that I was on the list, Mt Snow said I was not. Thats what set me off. This is so poorly done.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 22, 2019)

How else would they have been able to do this? 



jimmywilson69 said:


> Its kind of annoying they are doing it this way.  I'm certain this has something to do with back end accounting.


----------



## abc (Oct 22, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Read my post. Vail said that I was on the list, Mt Snow said I was not. Thats what set me off. This is so poorly done.


Forgot to add this is precisely the kind of situation I would err on the cautious side: money falling through the crack.

Although in this very scenario, I'd trust Vail more than I trust Mt Snow (Peak). So, if it were me, I wouldn't bother with the "dispute". 





AdironRider said:


> So you think that Vail, a publicly traded company mind you, is going to welch on refunds?
> 
> I know it is fun to hate on Vail, but this seems like a bout of paranoia or you are just a lawyer.


Instead of hating Vail, you hate lawyers instead? 

Why don't we get rid of all lawyers. And when we do have disputes, we can settle it with our fist or knife or guns... like in the good old days!


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Oct 22, 2019)

Transferred my "Oxycodone pusher" - I mean Peaks pass to Epic today - finally got through.  Took a while and I've been trying for a while. Was a bit taken aback by the $$ shenanigans...  It's two different publicly traded companies so it makes sense.  I'm a liability to the deal.   Stoked to head out west this year.  Have a ton of friends in Tahoe and Colorado now.   So I'm stoked to hit Kirkwood, Crested and Telluride...   Gonna be awesome.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 22, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Transferred my "Oxycodone pusher" - I mean Peaks pass to Epic today - finally got through.  Took a while and I've been trying for a while. Was a bit taken aback by the $$ shenanigans...  It's two different publicly traded companies so it makes sense.  I'm a liability to the deal.   Stoked to head out west this year.  Have a ton of friends in Tahoe and Colorado now.   So I'm stoked to hit Kirkwood, Crested and Telluride...   Gonna be awesome.



Ends up being a better deal for me too, plus not funding the Sackler family anymore. Just the way its been done is poorly, should be able to do this all online!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 23, 2019)

mbedle said:


> How else would they have been able to do this?



Charge me the difference between the Peak Pass and whatever Epic product I purchased.  I get it, they were 2 different large companies and I'm sure this year considered 2 different revenue and profit centers.  

Its just annoying...  On the plus side I get to accumulate Credit Card Points twice!  I think...


----------



## cdskier (Oct 23, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Its just annoying...  On the plus side I get to accumulate Credit Card Points twice!  I think...



Doubt it...if the refund hits your CC, your CC company typically gives you negative points for those transactions.


----------



## mbedle (Oct 23, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Charge me the difference between the Peak Pass and whatever Epic product I purchased.  I get it, they were 2 different large companies and I'm sure this year considered 2 different revenue and profit centers.
> 
> Its just annoying...  On the plus side I get to accumulate Credit Card Points twice!  I think...



My bad, I thought that was what they were already doing. Didn't know that they were refunding the entire amount of the peak pass and making you purchase the epic pass.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 23, 2019)

mbedle said:


> My bad, I thought that was what they were already doing. Didn't know that they were refunding the entire amount of the peak pass and making you purchase the epic pass.



Bought my Epic Local last Tuesday and still nothing. Called Mt Snow office and they don't have me on a list for a refund. Someone in the Office was going to check on it and get back to me. They have until tomorrow before I put it in dispute with Amex.


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 23, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Ends up being a better deal for me too, plus not funding the Sackler family anymore. Just the way its been done is poorly, should be able to do this all online!




You already funded them.  They got loads of money thanks to the buyout.


----------



## jaytrem (Oct 23, 2019)

mbedle said:


> My bad, I thought that was what they were already doing. Didn't know that they were refunding the entire amount of the peak pass and making you purchase the epic pass.



Hmmm, mine should be real interesting since I partially paid with a gift card.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 24, 2019)

Yeah that sounds like a mess... 

Since the refunds are taking so long I've decided to wait until my credit card statement flips, which is tomorrow, to "upgrade" to Epic Local. That way the charge and refund will hopefully end up in the same credit card cycle.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 24, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Yeah that sounds like a mess...
> 
> Since the refunds are taking so long I've decided to wait until my credit card statement flips, which is tomorrow, to "upgrade" to Epic Local. That way the charge and refund will hopefully end up in the same credit card cycle.




We went as early as possible, regardless of CC billing cycle time, in the hopes that we'd have out Epic locals in hand for hopefully 1st turns for us the 2nd full weekend in November... *fingers crossed*


----------



## jaytrem (Oct 24, 2019)

Just did my upgrade, was only on hold for about 3 minutes.  So I guess things have slowed down for them.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Oct 28, 2019)

Has anyone received a refund yet?  Still waiting here...


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 28, 2019)

ski&soccermom said:


> Has anyone received a refund yet?  Still waiting here...



Mine came thru on 10-24. Funny how it went thru right after I said I was gonna place it in dispute with Amex.


----------



## RichT (Oct 28, 2019)

ski&soccermom said:


> Has anyone received a refund yet?  Still waiting here...



Mine hit on 25th, posted yesterday! I purchased on the 17th.


----------



## njdiver85 (Oct 30, 2019)

Looks like Mount Snow is getting the Hermitage snow guns that were auctioned yesterday!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 30, 2019)

just purchased my Epic Local Passes for my wife and I.  I was on the phone a total of 22 minutes.  I spoke to Earl who is without a doubt the nicest customer service rep I've ever spoken to!


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 30, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> just purchased my Epic Local Passes for my wife and I.  I was on the phone a total of 22 minutes.  I spoke to Earl who is without a doubt the nicest customer service rep I've ever spoken to!


I am sure it has calmed down by now.

On another subject, I hear the Vails CEO grew up skiing at Hunter. Hopefully that means he gives Hunter some extra love. New Bathrooms is all I ask for! Lol...


----------



## thebigo (Oct 30, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Looks like Mount Snow is getting the Hermitage snow guns that were auctioned yesterday!



Per article Vail acquired the guns, doesnt say where they will end up. 

More info: https://www.reformer.com/stories/mt-snow-parent-company-gets-hermitage-snowguns,588735


----------



## drjeff (Oct 30, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Looks like Mount Snow is getting the Hermitage snow guns that were auctioned yesterday!



I wouldn't be so sure that they'll be moving up the street from the Hermitage to Mount Snow.  Mount Snow actually took out about 15 or so fan guns that were on a couple of trails (Mine Shaft and some of Cascade from what it looked like to me) over the Summer and replaced them with air/water towers. Some of the fan guns have been shipped to other Peak resorts, while as of Columbus Day Weekend when I was last up there, some others were still sitting in one of the outer parking lots, all plastic wrapped up on palates looking like they were waiting to be shipped to other sister resorts.

The mountain ops folks at Mount Snow over the years have done some tweaking about what type of gun (fan vs air water and various air/water brands {HKD, Snowlogic, and ratnik) work best in various areas of the mountain and under what conditions they ideally will use them in)


----------



## drjeff (Oct 30, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> I am sure it has calmed down by now.
> 
> On another subject, I hear the Vails CEO grew up skiing at Hunter. Hopefully that means he gives Hunter some extra love. New Bathrooms is all I ask for! Lol...



Yup, I learned that tidbit about Rob Katz, Vail Resorts CEO when I was reading the really good new ski industry book, written by Chris Diamond, Ski Inc 2020


----------



## cdskier (Oct 30, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Yup, I learned that tidbit about Rob Katz, Vail Resorts CEO when I was reading the really good new ski industry book, written by Chris Diamond, Ski Inc 2020



Didn't realize Chris had a new book out. I enjoyed the original Ski Inc and might need to pick this new one up...


----------



## drjeff (Oct 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Didn't realize Chris had a new book out. I enjoyed the original Ski Inc and might need to pick this new one up...



I'm about 75 pages in so far, and I find it a very interesting read, equally, if not better than his original Ski Inc from a few years ago. This one is focusing (so far at least) on the rise of Vail Resorts and the Epic Pass and Alterra and the Ikon pass and the overall trends behind the multi resort "mega passes"


----------



## icecoast1 (Oct 30, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> Looks like Mount Snow is getting the Hermitage snow guns that were auctioned yesterday!



They'll more thank likely go to one of Vails mountains that runs Techno Alpin which Mt Snow does not


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 30, 2019)

The Southcentral PA Resorts use TAs.  Whitetail uses them almost exclusively, Roundtop has 1 run with TA, and Liberty has a bunch of TAs

Can't speak for the Poconos or anywhere else Peaks related.  Would seem odd to ship them anywhere further than the East coast, but if they got a great deal on basically brand new equipment then who knows.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 30, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The Southcentral PA Resorts use TAs.  Whitetail uses them almost exclusively, Roundtop has 1 run with TA, and Liberty has a bunch of TAs
> 
> Can't speak for the Poconos or anywhere else Peaks related.  Would seem odd to ship them anywhere further than the East coast, but if they got a great deal on basically brand new equipment then who knows.



Wont be going to Hunter I bet. Switching over to mostly HKD sticks.


----------



## asnowmobiler (Oct 30, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> I am sure it has calmed down by now.
> 
> On another subject, I hear the Vails CEO grew up skiing at Hunter. Hopefully that means he gives Hunter some extra love. New Bathrooms is all I ask for! Lol...


 Got to love drinking at a bar overlooking a parking lot then walking down stairs in ski boots to take a piss&#55357;&#56867;


----------



## mbedle (Oct 31, 2019)

asnowmobiler said:


> Got to love drinking at a bar overlooking a parking lot then walking down stairs in ski boots to take a piss��



You basically just described the Mansfield Lodge at Stowe.... LOL Not a dig, by far my favorite lodge at the place.


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 31, 2019)

mbedle said:


> You basically just described the Mansfield Lodge at Stowe.... LOL Nnot a dig, by far my favorite lodge at the place.



...and Barker Lodge at SR
   Bar is upstairs on 2nd level, only bathrooms are 2 flight of stairs down in the basement....


----------



## skiur (Oct 31, 2019)

2Planker said:


> ...and Barker Lodge at SR
> Bar is upstairs on 2nd level, only bathrooms are 2 flight of stairs down in the basement....



The old peak lodge at Killington was like that too, and those stairs were slippery......Bear Mt has lodge has downstairs bathrooms too.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 31, 2019)

skiur said:


> The old peak lodge at Killington was like that too, and those stairs were slippery......Bear Mt has lodge has downstairs bathrooms too.



The K1 lodge has bathrooms on the same level!


----------



## skiur (Oct 31, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> The K1 lodge has bathrooms on the same level!



Lets hope the new one will too!


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 31, 2019)

skiur said:


> Lets hope the new one will too!



If they are smart, they will. Refill and drain quicker!


----------



## thebigo (Oct 31, 2019)

Wildcat has sucked countless extra rounds out of me over the years by placing the nicest bathrooms in the lodge on the third story next to the bar.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 31, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Wildcat has sucked countless extra rounds out of me over the years by placing the nicest bathrooms in the lodge on the third story next to the bar.



:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## So Inclined (Nov 1, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Wildcat has sucked countless extra rounds out of me over the years by placing the nicest bathrooms in the lodge on the third story next to the bar.



Kinda the same set-up, on a smaller (sounds funny, 'cause Wildcat's lodge is hardly monumental in size, but it's true) scale at Plattekill. Basement bathrooms, 1st floor caff, bar up another flight. Happily there's another can plus an upstairs exit at Platty too - as well as Zywiec. I've long found it curious that both Belle and Plattekill served that in their bars, but my partly-Polish dupa ain't complaining.


----------



## FBGM (Nov 2, 2019)

About 6 months now till we thin the beard and fire the low hanging useless managers. Party time.


----------



## skifree (Nov 2, 2019)

You ever say anything positive .?
Miserable fucktard


----------



## Gforce (Nov 3, 2019)

Is Vail expanding Attitash???

The acquisition closed on September 23, just days later a significant timber clearing operation began west of the Wandering Skis trail. As of today there are large tracks of trees taken out selectively well up the slope. It looks like either ski trails and/or clearing for mountain side development. Nothing in the local papers nor is anything filed with the Carroll county or Town of Bartlett. This is now Vail owned land and not Nat Forest property.

Anyone know whats up ??


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 3, 2019)

It is just logging, no ski potential.


----------



## machski (Nov 3, 2019)

Gforce said:


> Is Vail expanding Attitash???
> 
> The acquisition closed on September 23, just days later a significant timber clearing operation began west of the Wandering Skis trail. As of today there are large tracks of trees taken out selectively well up the slope. It looks like either ski trails and/or clearing for mountain side development. Nothing in the local papers nor is anything filed with the Carroll county or Town of Bartlett. This is now Vail owned land and not Nat Forest property.
> 
> Anyone know whats up ??


Vail tends to ride out new acquisitions before doing anything radical.  Anything that is happening now would have to have been driven by Peaks or an independent development.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## crazy (Nov 3, 2019)

Is there any chance that the Cat opens next weekend?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2019)

crazy said:


> Is there any chance that the Cat opens next weekend?


I'd say doubtful.  From what I saw they were only making snow on Upper Lynx so far.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thebigo (Nov 3, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd say doubtful.  From what I saw they were only making snow on Upper Lynx so far.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Temps at the base look very positive later this week and it is a long weekend. Daughter and I are going to start our season on friday at k, would be nice to finish the weekend at the cat on monday.

Edit - it is possible I am seeing things but upper polecat sure looks white on the webcam and their most recent picture on FB looks more like PC than lynx. Not that it helps them get open any sooner but would be a different rollout.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Temps at the base look very positive later this week and it is a long weekend. Daughter and I are going to start our season on friday at k, would be nice to finish the weekend at the cat on monday.
> 
> Edit - it is possible I am seeing things but upper polecat sure looks white on the webcam and their most recent picture on FB looks more like PC than lynx. Not that it helps them get open any sooner but would be a different rollout.


I just looked and think what you are seeing is the very top of middle Lynx.  Looks like they've made snow from summit down to the top of the Tomcat chair.  You can't really see Polecat from the base Webcam.  Also they've only listed or talked about Upper Lynx and Lynx Lair getting snowmaking so far.

They might get lucky with enough cold weather, but they typically don't rush things.  They blow and let things drain for at least 24 hours before grooming it out.  Given the acreage of Lynx, I bet it needs a solid 36 hours of snowmaking under good temps, then 24 hours to drain after.  Then the groom out.  If they can't get that done for a Sunday opening, I don't see them opening just Monday even though it's a holiday. 

Maybe, but doubtful is my take on this weekend.  



Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 4, 2019)

Yes they made snow only above the booster station on Lynx.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 5, 2019)

My families upgraded Epic Local passes arrived in the mail today. Took about 3 weeks from when my wife made the call to Vail Resorts the Tuesday after Columbus Day for them to arrive


----------



## thebigo (Nov 7, 2019)

With SR opening tomorrow, the score in the east goes to: 

Ikon: 2
Vail: 0


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 7, 2019)

yea im really surprised they arent getting mount snow or okemo open this weekend. 

i also saw a post yesterday where breck is already confirming that they will be open memorial day weekend. i suspect this is directly a result of losing a-basin and their long season


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 7, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea im really surprised they arent getting mount snow or okemo open this weekend.
> 
> i also saw a post yesterday where breck is already confirming that they will be open memorial day weekend. i suspect this is directly a result of losing a-basin and their long season




Mount Snow could still open Saturday.  They have a couple of nights of solid snowmaking temps coming up


----------



## cdskier (Nov 7, 2019)

thebigo said:


> With SR opening tomorrow, the score in the east goes to:
> 
> Ikon: 2
> Vail: 0



Technically more like:
Ikon Partners: 2
Alterra owned resorts: 0
Vail owned resorts: 0

Not that it matters a huge deal to Ikon passholders whether the resort is owned by Alterra or just a partner (other than the limited number of days you have at each partner per season). Personally I'd have a hard time justifying using an Ikon day to ski only a couple trails so early in the season, but that's me. I get it that some people just want to get out there no matter what.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 7, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> Mount Snow could still open Saturday.  They have a couple of nights of solid snowmaking temps coming up



Based on the product they typically have ready for opening day, and looking objectively at their webcams now (or atleast before the flurries started flying on their summit cam this morning) and the likely temps they're going to have around, the "GOOD" snowmaking window arrives sometime this evening. Realistically they're going to need about a 48hr run to get enough product down to connect the piles with enough base.  Saturday becomes a bit of a stretch. Sunday would seem more reasonable if they're going to open this weekend.

If next weeks temps play out as predicted, and they hold off opening until next weekend, you could be looking at multiple routes down multiple faces for an opening.  I guess we'll be seeing in the next day or so how much Vail Resorts does or doesn't want to "play" into the early opening game in the Northeast.....


----------



## thebigo (Nov 7, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Technically more like:
> Ikon Partners: 2
> Alterra owned resorts: 0
> Vail owned resorts: 0
> ...



Ikon is not a viable standalone option for families that ski 50 - 100 days per years, it would need to be paired with a local hill. For our family Ragged/Ikon is cost competitive with our current approach: epic/k spring and early season k online tickets.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2019)

Sunday river sent a correction - they are opening Saturday not tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## FBGM (Nov 7, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Sunday river sent a correction - they are opening Saturday not tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



What does this have to do with Vail Resorts?


----------



## FBGM (Nov 7, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Based on the product they typically have ready for opening day, and looking objectively at their webcams now (or atleast before the flurries started flying on their summit cam this morning) and the likely temps they're going to have around, the "GOOD" snowmaking window arrives sometime this evening. Realistically they're going to need about a 48hr run to get enough product down to connect the piles with enough base.  Saturday becomes a bit of a stretch. Sunday would seem more reasonable if they're going to open this weekend.
> 
> If next weeks temps play out as predicted, and they hold off opening until next weekend, you could be looking at multiple routes down multiple faces for an opening.  I guess we'll be seeing in the next day or so how much Vail Resorts does or doesn't want to "play" into the early opening game in the Northeast.....



Pre-Vail they would be open with a garbage product this Saturday. Vail wants a non shit show. The change is here. It’s for the better


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 7, 2019)

Looks like Hunter is setting up to make snow tonight! I think an opening next weekend is a pretty good bet!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2019)

thebigo said:


> With SR opening tomorrow, the score in the east goes to:
> 
> Ikon: 2
> Vail: 0





FBGM said:


> What does this have to do with Vail Resorts?


 Because someone posted the above. So it has nothing to do with Vail Resorts but it was in this thread...


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 7, 2019)

Guns are on at Hunter!


----------



## RichT (Nov 8, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Guns are on at Hunter!




Cool, and Windham's all quiet!


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 8, 2019)

RichT said:


> Cool, and Windham's all quiet!



Plus, Hunter is making HBK and the Belt at the same time. That has not happened since Orville and Izzy were alive.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 8, 2019)

RichT said:


> Cool, and Windham's all quiet!



Belleayre’s making snow...


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## kingslug (Nov 8, 2019)

It Be cold round those parts


----------



## sull1102 (Nov 8, 2019)

Vail’s “pre-owned” guns from the Hermitage have been removed by the Mount Snow team this past week. Unsure if they’ll be used at Snow or moved elsewhere. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 11, 2019)

My Peak Pass Refunds returned in exactly 7 Calendar days.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Nov 12, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> My Peak Pass Refunds returned in exactly 7 Calendar days.


That is great that they are getting faster - ours took almost 4 weeks and 2 phone calls!


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 12, 2019)

Hunter is already making snow. Very aggressive compared to years past! Windham has nothing going on.


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 12, 2019)

ski&soccermom said:


> That is great that they are getting faster - ours took almost 4 weeks and 2 phone calls!



Who did you call?  Vail or Peaks?  I'm at 19 days right now, no refund yet.  They probably have no idea what to do with mine since it was partially paid with a gift card.  They're probably hoping I forget the owe my $1400.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 12, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Who did you call?  Vail or Peaks?  I'm at 19 days right now, no refund yet.  They probably have no idea what to do with mine since it was partially paid with a gift card.  They're probably hoping I forget the owe my $1400.



You need to call your home mountain. If its Hunter, call them! I threatened to put mine in dispute and magically the credit appeared the same day. It is a clusterfuck the way it's being done.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 12, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Who did you call?  Vail or Peaks?  I'm at 19 days right now, no refund yet.  They probably have no idea what to do with mine since it was partially paid with a gift card.  They're probably hoping I forget the owe my $1400.



If you call Vail, they'll tell you to call Mount Snow (if that's where you bought your Epic passes). They're still on limited hours right now, so you need to do so mid day, midweek it seems at the moment.

This will be so much easier next year when it's all about 1 pass from the purchase day forward.  

Hopefully your wait time will be less than it takes for a batch of your delicious cookies to cook in the oven!


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 12, 2019)

drjeff said:


> If you call Vail, they'll tell you to call Mount Snow (if that's where you bought your Epic passes). They're still on limited hours right now, so you need to do so mid day, midweek it seems at the moment.
> 
> This will be so much easier next year when it's all about 1 pass from the purchase day forward.
> 
> Hopefully your wait time will be less than it takes for a batch of your delicious cookies to cook in the oven!



Thanks guys.

Got mine at Jack Frost, Mount Snow charges sales tax, so haven't purchased from there in quite a while.

Would really like to get the new passes in the mail more than I want my refund right away.  I have no desire to deal with the craziness on Saturday when X number of Epic people show up wanting tickets.  Who knows, maybe my Peaks passes will still work since no refund yet.

My buddy Joel is the cookie guy, not me, I just eat them.  Here's a plug for him though...

https://outrageouscookiedough.com/


----------



## ski&soccermom (Nov 12, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Who did you call?  Vail or Peaks?  I'm at 19 days right now, no refund yet.  They probably have no idea what to do with mine since it was partially paid with a gift card.  They're probably hoping I forget the owe my $1400.



As the others said, call your home Peaks resort...  I received my son's Vail pass in the mail last week, but so far nothing for my husband, daughter and I. The whole process definitely leaves a lot to be desired!


----------



## drewfidelic (Nov 13, 2019)

I called Vail to exchange my pass about 2 weeks ago, Peaks refunded me about a week later. The Vail rep mentioned that their process was adding a line into a spreadsheet and then someone at Peak would be responsible for issuing the refunds. Post-merger integrations are difficult.


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Nov 13, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Would really like to get the new passes in the mail more than I want my refund right away.  I have no desire to deal with the craziness on Saturday when X number of Epic people show up wanting tickets.  Who knows, maybe my Peaks passes will still work since no refund yet.
> 
> https://outrageouscookiedough.com/




I talked to Mount Snow with this same issue and they indicated that until you get your refund, your peak pass will still be active. So congrats you now own two season passes! Doesnt it feel great!? (Coming from someone still waiting on my refunds from an Oct 23 upgrade date)


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 13, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> I talked to Mount Snow with this same issue and they indicated that until you get your refund, your peak pass will still be active. So congrats you now own two season passes! Doesnt it feel great!? (Coming from someone still waiting on my refunds from an Oct 23 upgrade date)



Got an Ikon pass too, 3 passes!!!  Wife's cousin has a place at Squaw, was really pulling for Alterra to buy Peak.  It will probably be our last Ikon for a while.

Thanks for the info, I was wondering if the old ones would still work.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Nov 13, 2019)

Hunter is making a shtiton of snow...
I personally don't remember this many guns on at once..   This weekend is going to be awesome..  
Go Vail!!!


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Nov 13, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Hunter is already making snow. Very aggressive compared to years past! Windham has nothing going on.



Windham has an issue...   Not finished with their snowmaking projects..  Bad planning..


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 13, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Hunter is making a shtiton of snow...
> I personally don't remember this many guns on at once..   This weekend is going to be awesome..
> Go Vail!!!



smart of them to have a catskills option the same time mt snow is having their first weekend. will disperse people.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 13, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Windham has an issue...   Not finished with their snowmaking projects..  Bad planning..



I said the same thing about bad planning on a facebook group and people went nuts defending them.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 13, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> smart of them to have a catskills option the same time mt snow is having their first weekend. will disperse people.



Not to mention wildcat for the boston people.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 13, 2019)

I find it kind of interesting that Okemo won't be spinning lifts this weekend, as apparently Okemo has the ability to actually print Epic passes on property, whereas all the acquired Peak properties won't apparently have that ability until next season...

For those still waiting for their Epic passes in the mail, this could of "solved" the issue that waiting in line at the ticket window for a day pass will be until they get their Epic's in the mail, or Okemo or Stowe opens..

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Nov 14, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> I said the same thing about bad planning on a facebook group and people went nuts defending them.



Not a good idea...   Widhham "homers" are pretty vocal


----------



## SnowRock (Nov 14, 2019)

Anyone know hunter‘s plans for tomorrow? Was considering a maniac day trip to mt snow to stretch the legs, but would much prefer the drive to Hunter from north Jersey


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Nov 14, 2019)

Probably open by 9am..  A couple trails open from top 2 bottom..


----------



## drjeff (Nov 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Not a good idea...   Widhham "homers" are pretty vocal



I just hope for Windham's sake that once they get the project finished, that it works properly from day 1. It's one thing for things to take a little longer than planned and have it work properly when ready, it's an entirely different thing to have it take longer than planned and then potentially have something not work as planned!

I'm also guessing that in some way, for some ski areas, the combo of a late Thanksgiving and this GOOD run of snowmaking windows we've had the last week or so that a vast number of resorts have taken advantage of, threw a bit of a monkey wrench at what I'm guessing was a long ago penciled in target opening date for those that try for Thanksgiving, of Saturday the 23rd


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Not a good idea...   Widhham "homers" are pretty vocal



I see that....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 14, 2019)

While I'm sure no one on this board really cares, but its relevant to the topic.  I've heard through the Grapevine (ski patroller)that Roundtop in PA, will be opening this weekend.  Could just be a J-Bar park, could be lift served with 2 of their typical first to open top to bottom routes!   If its the J-bar, I'll pass. if its lift served I'm there! 

Haven't received my Epic Pass yet, just uploaded photos last Friday. This would likely be the earliest opening ever for them.  

Surprised that either the Peaks or Vail regime would allow this to be honest.  That being said they have a very powerful snow making system and can lay down a lot of snow.  Its been 20 each of the last 2 mornings at my house 4 miles away.  Production has been impressive for mid-November even in PA!


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## andrec10 (Nov 14, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> While I'm sure no one on this board really cares, but its relevant to the topic.  I've heard through the Grapevine (ski patroller)that Roundtop in PA, will be opening this weekend.  Could just be a J-Bar park, could be lift served with 2 of their typical first to open top to bottom routes!   If its the J-bar, I'll pass. if its lift served I'm there!
> 
> Haven't received my Epic Pass yet, just uploaded photos last Friday. This would likely be the earliest opening ever for them.
> 
> ...


Its good to see Vail is not afraid to spend money! Takes money to make money.


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## drjeff (Nov 14, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> While I'm sure no one on this board really cares, but its relevant to the topic.  I've heard through the Grapevine (ski patroller)that Roundtop in PA, will be opening this weekend.  Could just be a J-Bar park, could be lift served with 2 of their typical first to open top to bottom routes!   If its the J-bar, I'll pass. if its lift served I'm there!
> 
> Haven't received my Epic Pass yet, just uploaded photos last Friday. This would likely be the earliest opening ever for them.
> 
> Surprised that either the Peaks or Vail regime would allow this to be honest.  That being said they have a very powerful snow making system and can lay down a lot of snow.  Its been 20 each of the last 2 mornings at my house 4 miles away.  Production has been impressive for mid-November even in PA!



The one thing that you do need to keep in mind, is that some of the old concepts about when to start making snow verses "wait for a better window" don't quite apply as they used to.  The data that mountain ops folks have these days about what their range of snowguns can do output wise in various wet bulb temps and what it will cost to do so, is far greater than it used to be.  So if they see a decent window that will allow them to put down some piles in a cost efficient way, even if they may not be pushed out for a week or more, if the general weather trend appears that a decent amount of whatever they make will still be there when they're ready to push it out and go for an opening, they're more likely to fire the system up, with the knowledge that business wise, it makes sense to.

Especially when it comes to snowmaking, the Peak portfolio of resorts that Epic acquired, comes with not just some modern, up to date snowmaking systems, but also as much, if not more output data in real world conditions than just about anyone in the business has.

You can probably read something into the fact that in the first Epic By Nature podcast that Vail Resorts released after the Peak acquisition was final, where Vail's Ceo, Rob Katz, was talking about snowmaking, that one of the people he interviewed, and the first now Vail, formerly Peak employee that he had on his podcast, was Brendan Ryan, who has done a huge amount of real world testing and date gathering and pushing the design, upgrades and operations of the snowmaking systems across basically Peak's entire resort portfolio the last few years.  It's not just about making snow, it's very often these days about making snow smarter and more efficiently, which ultimately allows the snowamaking budget to go further


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## machski (Nov 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I find it kind of interesting that Okemo won't be spinning lifts this weekend, as apparently Okemo has the ability to actually print Epic passes on property, whereas all the acquired Peak properties won't apparently have that ability until next season...
> 
> For those still waiting for their Epic passes in the mail, this could of "solved" the issue that waiting in line at the ticket window for a day pass will be until they get their Epic's in the mail, or Okemo or Stowe opens..
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


Not really a surprise, Okemo is fully assimilated now being this is their second year under Vail.  I still don't know what to make of the Peak resorts opening this Friday (as to will this continue in future years).  I say this because Katz has been upfront that Vail lets newly acquired resorts run on their own mostly the first year before Vail dives in and starts changing things.  I really have to wonder what next year will look like for the former Peaks hills in the early season.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Nov 14, 2019)

machski said:


> Not really a surprise, Okemo is fully assimilated now being this is their second year under Vail.  I still don't know what to make of the Peak resorts opening this Friday (as to will this continue in future years).  I say this because Katz has been upfront that Vail lets newly acquired resorts run on their own mostly the first year before Vail dives in and starts changing things.  I really have to wonder what next year will look like for the former Peaks hills in the early season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



I agree to some extent that this year vs next year may be different.  I also know that Rob Katz wants to keep selling a bunch of Epic passes, and to some extent, that means that he has to pay some attention to what his main competitor, IKON is doing. That played out to some extent in Colorado this year, where to counter the early opening that ABasin gave IKON pass holders, Vail Resorts spent the money to upgrade Keystone's snowmaking capabilities and opened them early as well.

With the now much more significant presence in the Eastern market that acquiring the Peak Resorts gave Vail, and with Killington and Sunday River both currently on IKON and known early season players, I would suspect that Vail, to keep their pass attractive to the Eastern market, especially for those who waiver back and forth between Epic and IKON, that they will choose to have some presence in the Early season market. Given their snowmaking system's capability, and proximity to both the Boston and New York metro markets, my hunch is that even in year 2 and beyond of Vail ownership, that Mount Snow atleast will have some presence in the Eastern early season game to keep the early season demand of the Epic passholder crew satisfied.


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## SnowRock (Nov 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Probably open by 9am..  A couple trails open from top 2 bottom..



thanks. thats probably enough for my first day out. any idea of likely trails? trying to look at webcam  looks like quite a bit of snow up top. Hellgate connecting through to Kennedy?


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## andrec10 (Nov 14, 2019)

SnowRock said:


> thanks. thats probably enough for my first day out. any idea of likely trails? trying to look at webcam  looks like quite a bit of snow up top. Hellgate connecting through to Kennedy?



Looks to be HBK and Belt Parkway. Minya might come online later. Also Mossy Brook is being made on, but thats from B lift down.


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## spiderpig (Nov 14, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> I talked to Mount Snow with this same issue and they indicated that until you get your refund, your peak pass will still be active. So congrats you now own two season passes! Doesnt it feel great!? (Coming from someone still waiting on my refunds from an Oct 23 upgrade date)



I ended up with one Okemo pass and three Epic passes last season. Very efficient. First Epic was at the resort on the first day, other two came in the mail a few weeks apart.


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## machski (Nov 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I agree to some extent that this year vs next year may be different.  I also know that Rob Katz wants to keep selling a bunch of Epic passes, and to some extent, that means that he has to pay some attention to what his main competitor, IKON is doing. That played out to some extent in Colorado this year, where to counter the early opening that ABasin gave IKON pass holders, Vail Resorts spent the money to upgrade Keystone's snowmaking capabilities and opened them early as well.
> 
> With the now much more significant presence in the Eastern market that acquiring the Peak Resorts gave Vail, and with Killington and Sunday River both currently on IKON and known early season players, I would suspect that Vail, to keep their pass attractive to the Eastern market, especially for those who waiver back and forth between Epic and IKON, that they will choose to have some presence in the Early season market. Given their snowmaking system's capability, and proximity to both the Boston and New York metro markets, my hunch is that even in year 2 and beyond of Vail ownership, that Mount Snow atleast will have some presence in the Eastern early season game to keep the early season demand of the Epic passholder crew satisfied.


I kind of agree with you drjeff.  The one hitch is that SR and K are not full Ikon pass partners (IE passholders only get 5/7 days and so choosing to burn a couple early season then limits their visits in peak season there).  So Vail could consider their openings to be a non-competitor to the Epic pass.  Colorado was/is different as A-Basin was a full Epic partner and has been known to be the big early season player and a huge draw since they installed their snowmaking system over a decade ago.  And that was built up on the Epic, so CO skiers on Epic became accustomed to that early season product as well as their late season product.

In the end, I think you are right and Vail will play in the early and late season arena.  My early call is like you, only Mount Snow early season (though they may keep Hunter in that game too so as to not overwhelm Mount Snow's early season skier capacity and split NYC traffic) and my early call for the late game would be Wildcat simply due to its elevation and snow holding abilities.  Time will answer a lot of the changes that have come in the last 4 months to the ski scene in NE.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 14, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Looks to be HBK and Belt Parkway. Minya might come online later. Also Mossy Brook is being made on, but thats from B lift down.



I think jimmy heuga is getting some love now too..


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 14, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> I see that....



Most of them WERE Hunter people at one time and bought into the town being nicer over the mountain being more challenging..  Now they "moved on up" and won't shut up about how it's better than Hunter.  It's OK..   I just go to Windham for food..


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I just go to Windham for food..



I find Windham a very boring ski experience.  I only go there once every 3 to 5 years whenever WM doles out free tickets.


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## So Inclined (Nov 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I think jimmy heuga is getting some love now too..



Perhaps they're already blowing on or planning to blow on the new (and improved?) White Cloud, which intersects with and actually takes over Jimmie, giving another intermediate TTB run right from the start?* Praise be if that's what they're doing.

*As I heard it, the lower part of Jimmie (with the rock face running skier's right) is now White Cloud.


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## danimals (Nov 14, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Probably open by 9am..  A couple trails open from top 2 bottom..



If hunter only has one route down I might do the same. It all depends on how I feel when I get to the hunter exit on the thruway 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## andrec10 (Nov 14, 2019)

danimals said:


> If hunter only has one route down I might do the same. It all depends on how I feel when I get to the hunter exit on the thruway
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They will have 2 ways down off the top. Not too shabby. BY Saturday, I would say thats 4 off the top. Impressive...Like the Good old days of Orville and Izzy.


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## danimals (Nov 14, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> They will have 2 ways down off the top. Not too shabby. BY Saturday, I would say thats 4 off the top. Impressive...Like the Good old days of Orville and Izzy.



If that’s the case, that works for me. Weather looks decent for expansion coming up. I know that means we will usually pay for it December and January but here’s to hoping the thaw goes easy this year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thebigo (Nov 15, 2019)

Very surprised to find new bathrooms at the kitty this morning, old ones dated to my childhood. Also trail rollout is different, blowing on bobcat instead of polecat second.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Very surprised to find new bathrooms at the kitty this morning, old ones dated to my childhood. Also trail rollout is different, blowing on bobcat instead of polecat second.


Both the bar bathrooms and the basement?

I saw Bobcat on the snowmaking report.  Probably makes sense to get a second TTB route open via Catapult/Bobcat vs Polecat.  Takes less snow to do so

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## RichT (Nov 15, 2019)

Yep me too, Windham food Hunter Ski, now if Hunter can get the town up to par for food also..................!!



Funky_Catskills said:


> Most of them WERE Hunter people at one time and bought into the town being nicer over the mountain being more challenging..  Now they "moved on up" and won't shut up about how it's better than Hunter.  It's OK..   I just go to Windham for food..


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 15, 2019)

RichT said:


> Yep me too, Windham food Hunter Ski, now if Hunter can get the town up to par for food also..................!!



Although now I'm pretty much a regular at Jesses Harvest House in T-Ville..   Place rules!


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## andrec10 (Nov 15, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Although now I'm pretty much a regular at Jesses Harvest House in T-Ville..   Place rules!



Tannersville food has gotten better!


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 15, 2019)

Opening day Hunter was sweet!!!   Gorgeous day!!   Groomed perfectly..  Opened RIGHT at 9AM..   Gave us socks that say Hunter..  HBK and Belt were opened.   Snowmaking on Juega and Whitecloud.   

I'm puttting a check in the win column for Vail... Well done!!!   Now time to get to work..


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## SnowRock (Nov 15, 2019)

Agreed. Free socks a nice touch. Perfect weather. Tackling a few work emails before another run or two and calling it.


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## andrec10 (Nov 15, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Opening day Hunter was sweet!!!   Gorgeous day!!   Groomed perfectly..  Opened RIGHT at 9AM..   Gave us socks that say Hunter..  HBK and Belt were opened.   Snowmaking on Juega and Whitecloud.
> 
> I'm puttting a check in the win column for Vail... Well done!!!   Now time to get to work..



Sounds good. It always felt like since Peak took over, it was under funded and under staffed. Sounds better already!


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## thebigo (Nov 15, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Both the bar bathrooms and the basement?
> 
> I saw Bobcat on the snowmaking report.  Probably makes sense to get a second TTB route open via Catapult/Bobcat vs Polecat.  Takes less snow to do so
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Per patrol, while waiting for first chair, their was an airline rupture on polecat. They have switched to the other side until PC can be repaired.

Basement bathrooms have new stalls, shitters and countertops. Havent checked the bar bathrooms, still working on my first jack of the season. I may be crazy but I can actually see through water and it tastes like normal tap water.

Edit: bar bathrooms are unchanged


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 15, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Sounds good. It always felt like since Peak took over, it was under funded and under staffed. Sounds better already!



Hoping to make it back out today..


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## Funky_Catskills (Nov 15, 2019)

andrec10 said:


> Tannersville food has gotten better!



Jessies is the shit..  A little price'y but worth it for farm 2 table..


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## Gforce (Nov 16, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> It is just logging, no ski potential.



the timing seems to be more than a coincidence. Also what is cut out does not seem to be an economical way to log, that being cutting distinct veins of trees out of the side of a relatively steep slope. I'd submit this is Real Estate development possibly linking into Attitash Bear Mtn trails.


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## JimG. (Nov 17, 2019)

Just saw a very polished, Hollywood style TV ad for the Epic pass.

Guess I should not be surprised. Reinforces my dislike for such passes.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2019)

JimG. said:


> *Just saw a very polished, Hollywood style TV* *ad* for the Epic pass.
> 
> Guess I should not be surprised.* Reinforces my dislike *for such passes.



Huh?


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## Newpylong (Nov 17, 2019)

Gforce said:


> the timing seems to be more than a coincidence. Also what is cut out does not seem to be an economical way to log, that being cutting distinct veins of trees out of the side of a relatively steep slope. I'd submit this is Real Estate development possibly linking into Attitash Bear Mtn trails.



I typically do not post information unless it is first hand. It was logging for cash, and nothing more.


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## JimG. (Nov 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Huh?



Let me explain. I'm watching TV and suddenly here comes a pitch for the Epic pass. Telling me to get my Epic pass soon. Lot's of action shots from powder days out west and a short 2 second list of a few eastern resorts. Saw it several times today.

I get it they want to sell more passes so they decided to drop some change on fancy ads. And I guess dislike is a poor word choice because none of this affects me, but if I were an Attitash skier hoping for a new summit lift or a Mt Snow skier this weekend waiting on a busted down lift I'd be pretty pissed they're spending money on fancy ads instead of infrastructure upgrades.

More questions?


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2019)

JimG. said:


> *if I were an Attitash skier hoping for a new summit lift or a Mt Snow skier this weekend waiting on a busted down lift I'd be pretty pissed they're spending money on fancy ads instead of infrastructure upgrades.* *More questions?*



Do you get mad at Mount Snow whenever you saw one of their spots?  Hunter?  Deer Valley?  Smuggs?  Whiteface? Insert resort name here _____?   

I'm not a fan of EPIC or IKON either, but I do know marketing works, and increased profit is what does eventually does pay for things like new lifts.


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## FBGM (Nov 17, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Let me explain. I'm watching TV and suddenly here comes a pitch for the Epic pass. Telling me to get my Epic pass soon. Lot's of action shots from powder days out west and a short 2 second list of a few eastern resorts. Saw it several times today.
> 
> I get it they want to sell more passes so they decided to drop some change on fancy ads. And I guess dislike is a poor word choice because none of this affects me, but if I were an Attitash skier hoping for a new summit lift or a Mt Snow skier this weekend waiting on a busted down lift I'd be pretty pissed they're spending money on fancy ads instead of infrastructure upgrades.
> 
> More questions?



lol at not know what marketing is


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## JimG. (Nov 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you get mad at Mount Snow whenever you saw one of their spots?  Hunter?  Deer Valley?  Smuggs?  Whiteface? Insert resort name here _____?
> 
> I'm not a fan of EPIC or IKON either, but I do know marketing works, and increased profit is what does eventually does pay for things like new lifts.



Guess I don't watch enough TV to have seen many ski area ads leave alone one advertising a skiing pass. It stood out for me, I guess congrats to them for grabbing my attention.

and thanks for the marketing lesson duh.


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## ss20 (Nov 18, 2019)

I feel like a lot of people hate Ikon/Epic because we're pretty personally tied to this sport and to certain mountains.  

I compare it to the Smalltown, USA Walmart example.  If you're a local in town and you shop at Joe's Convenience Store 3 days a week year-after-year-after year you're gonna be pretty opinionated when Walmart comes to town and makes things hard for Joe and your purchasing habits change and/or are threatened by Walmart.

But for the "average" customer at Joe's...someone who shops there maybe once a month...a skier who gets 10 days a year...do they really care about Walmart/Vail coming in?  Probably not...  


I'm not going to "hate" Vail for simply existing and being a business.  Now if they bought Killington and made the season November 1-May 1 I'd be livid.  If they bought the local hill I work at I'd be massssively personally invested and would care enough to develop an opinion.  But for me now?  My skiing habits are changing but not enough that smoke will be coming out of my ears and I put that Katz CEO guy in the dictionary next to the Devil.


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## jimk (Nov 18, 2019)

It would be an interesting exercise to try to determine which is economically better for a small town:  numerous small businesses or one Walmart supercenter?  Could a large and vibrant Walmart be better for the local economy than a bunch of small, stagnant businesses?  I honestly don't know.
I have a nephew who works in management for a Walmart on the rural coastline of Oregon.  He's a military veteran, but without a college degree.  He's a refugee from Southern California and has a beautiful lifestyle in Oregon that he would have a hard time attaining in California.


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## danimals (Nov 18, 2019)

I’ve seen wal marts move into a few small towns in my area as well as more rural parts of PA. What happens is the same in each town. The small business not only compete for your business but for your employment as well, so more people make a decent living. When wal mart comes and puts the small business out of business, more people end up out of work, or working for lower wages. Sure the managers make a decent amount, but that’s only a few people in each wal Mart.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JimG. (Nov 18, 2019)

ss20 said:


> I feel like a lot of people hate Ikon/Epic because we're pretty personally tied to this sport and to certain mountains.
> 
> I compare it to the Smalltown, USA Walmart example.  If you're a local in town and you shop at Joe's Convenience Store 3 days a week year-after-year-after year you're gonna be pretty opinionated when Walmart comes to town and makes things hard for Joe and your purchasing habits change and/or are threatened by Walmart.
> 
> ...



Pretty awesome synopsis, especially the part about the 10 day a year skiers who don't care. Those are the people these mega passes target.

Those are the same people who will bail out on your business at the drop of a hat if things change. And then these resorts will be begging the hardcore locals to return. And it will cost them a fortune to get those customers back.


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## Smellytele (Nov 18, 2019)

I think ski mountain homers think they are more important than they really are. Vail doesn't care about you, Vail wants you to travel around to multiple Vail ski areas.


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## JimG. (Nov 18, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> I think ski mountain homers think they are more important than they really are. Vail doesn't care about you, Vail wants you to travel around to multiple Vail ski areas.



I know I'm not important. I agree with you in general that people think they are more important than they are especially on social media. 

But Vail isn't important to me so F them.


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## catskillman (Nov 18, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I know I'm not important. I agree with you in general that people think they are more important than they are especially on social media.
> 
> But Vail isn't important to me so F them.




Again, read the book "Powder Burn"!  This will map out the future of all the newly acquired Vail resorts.........


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 18, 2019)

these passes do not only benefit the ~10 day/season skier. they've benefited any of us on this board who have them and the rest of the subset of hardcore skiers who don't live close enough to any one mountain to have a home resort. starting with max pass and continuing onto ikon, my ski seasons became dramatically less expensive and more fun to plan over the past few years, and i've been able to rise from ~35 days a season to ~50+ as a result of the lower costs.  

i get the pinch this places on independent operators, and how it shafts the walk-up crowd, but these passes have benefited consumers' wallets and thats why they are so popular. the savvy among of us know how to minimize dealing with the crowds that have increased as a result of more people holding passes.


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## abc (Nov 18, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> I think ski mountain homers think they are more important than they really are. Vail doesn't care about you,


But that’s precisely why people are upset. 

They believe the mountain(s) cared about them, at least a little bit, maybe even quite a bit. 

But Vail won’t. 

Naturally, they’re not happy anout that change.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 18, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> these passes do not only benefit the ~10 day/season skier. they've benefited any of us on this board who have them and the rest of the subset of hardcore skiers who don't live close enough to any one mountain to have a home resort. starting with max pass and continuing onto ikon, my ski seasons became dramatically less expensive and more fun to plan over the past few years, and i've been able to rise from ~35 days a season to ~50+ as a result of the lower costs.
> 
> i get the pinch this places on independent operators, and how it shafts the walk-up crowd, but these passes have benefited consumers' wallets and thats why they are so popular. the savvy among of us know how to minimize dealing with the crowds that have increased as a result of more people holding passes.



If you are under 30, your pass price doubled to ski Mount Snow or the other peak mountains.  Same at Stratton after they were bought.


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## drjeff (Nov 19, 2019)

Finally received the refund of my families Peak pass purchase price after we upgraded to Epic locals. Received the passes in roughly 3 weeks from when we did the upgrade. Took about 4.5 weeks to get the refund


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 19, 2019)

that's strange...  I received my refund in 7 days and have yet to receive my passes...  Colorado said 2-4 weeks to ship?

I asked if they were sending them carrier pigeon.  they weren't amused :lol:


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## andrec10 (Nov 19, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that's strange...  I received my refund in 7 days and have yet to receive my passes...  Colorado said 2-4 weeks to ship?
> 
> I asked if they were sending them carrier pigeon.  they weren't amused :lol:



Vail is not aware of a Sense of Humor that they might have!


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## JimG. (Nov 19, 2019)

catskillman said:


> Again, read the book "Powder Burn"!  This will map out the future of all the newly acquired Vail resorts.........



Nope...don't care. 

I'll stick to non-Epic areas. I don't need to worry about pinching pennies to go skiing.

With Sugarbush becoming an Ikon resort I may indeed one day be an Ikon passholder. Frankly I'm happy to see this consolidation shakeout happening now and not in 4-5 years. At that time I will own a second ski home somewhere in NE. I figure by then the consolidation will be finished and I'll be able to make an informed decision about exactly where to purchase. By then the ski areas that are going to go bankrupt because they can't compete will be complete or at least obvious.

Right now I'm looking at something between and equidistant to K and SB. Maybe be a K passholder one season and alternate with the Ikon pass every other year.


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## JimG. (Nov 19, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> If you are under 30, your pass price doubled to ski Mount Snow or the other peak mountains.  Same at Stratton after they were bought.



They won't work with high schools anymore either. Epic resorts want full price for the kids.

Went to my kid's ski club meeting and the events coordinator was livid about Epic, said they were rude and inflexible.

So our school district doesn't work with Epic anymore.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2019)

Inflexible is a good word to describe Vail Resorts.   Regimented is another.


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## kingslug (Nov 19, 2019)

A ski club we belonged to for a season got booted by Epic..so they ..don't go to Stowe anymore.


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## thebigo (Nov 19, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Right now I'm looking at something between and equidistant to K and SB.



Problem is vt taxes retirement income, which can seriously add up if you plan on being retired for 20 years. I'm thinking one of the towns on the nh side of the river between lebanon and littleton. NH seniors ski cannon for free midweek, K spring pass is cheap and the drive is not too far, world class medical care at dhmc and they are building a market basket in plymouth. The mb may sound minimal if you are used to vermont grocery prices but I will bet you this alone will save at least $5k / year, I was shocked at the grocery prices in rutland last year.


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## JimG. (Nov 19, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Problem is vt taxes retirement income, which can seriously add up if you plan on being retired for 20 years. I'm thinking one of the towns on the nh side of the river between lebanon and littleton. NH seniors ski cannon for free midweek, K spring pass is cheap and the drive is not too far, world class medical care at dhmc and they are building a market basket in plymouth. The mb may sound minimal if you are used to vermont grocery prices but I will bet you this alone will save at least $5k / year, I was shocked at the grocery prices in rutland last year.



The choices are between VT and NH. We keep going back and forth. 

I could just as easily see us somewhere between Cannon and Wildcat. Except then I would need an Epic pass for Wildcat so right now VT has the edge. 

When you say VT taxes retirement income do you mean any income including capital gains and social security? I'm guessing yes and that would be a major disincentive to move there.


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## AdironRider (Nov 19, 2019)

JimG. said:


> The choices are between VT and NH. We keep going back and forth.
> 
> I could just as easily see us somewhere between Cannon and Wildcat. Except then I would need an Epic pass for Wildcat so right now VT has the edge.
> 
> When you say VT taxes retirement income do you mean any income including capital gains and social security? I'm guessing yes and that would be a major disincentive to move there.



Vermont taxes everything pretty heavily. Regular income tax rates on both social security and capital gains (less a 5k exclusion)/retirement income. 

I'd look at the area between Hanover and Littleton as well myself. All the untouched & un-commercialized beauty of VT and none of the tax pitfalls. It is really a pretty unique area of NH in that regard and isn't overly done up like North Conway or Lincoln. Plus the good healthcare.

You'd be a good hour or so from Wildcat but Cannon is better IMO, although with a smaller season.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 19, 2019)

MB will certainly save a boatload - we estimate $75 per week in savings over S&S,  and other mainstream large companies - never mind WHole Paycheck.

This site is a bit dated, but its close.
https://www.howmoneywalks.com/new-hampshire-vs-vermont-a-tale-of-two-state-tax-plans/

Property tax does have high rates in NH, but unless you are on water ( and maybe have the 'view' tax) values in NH are much more reasonable than VT.

That said, I have a second in VT for one reason: MRV and better snow - lake effect, lack of crowds, and good vibe, great terrain, on and on.

It may not be forever - when I'm too old and creaky to ski castlerock or MRG or Ext Woods et al, NH looks to be my destination. 
.

A simple avg of say Waterville ( 140" annually) to Bush ( 250" not including lake effect or upslope) less crowds in the places I like to go, and sure there's no comparison between the two - just same elevation.

I look at it like Wasatch grabbing snow before it hits Colorado on a smaller scale. But 30 years of travelling to both - never a true snow deficit in the 'Tah, some boney weeks in Summit County tho. . . . same thing. 

My property taxes have doubled since purchase in '03. Means less now than when on a fixed income in retirement. I hope never to have to do that. Soon as one stops being productive, it seems to take away some part of youth. But thats just me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 19, 2019)

JimG. said:


> The choices are between VT and NH. We keep going back and forth.
> 
> I could just as easily see us somewhere between Cannon and Wildcat. Except then I would need an Epic pass for Wildcat so right now VT has the edge.
> 
> When you say VT taxes retirement income do you mean any income including capital gains and social security? I'm guessing yes and that would be a major disincentive to move there.


Knowing your summer passion, maybe look at Mascoma lake in Enfield, NH. About an hour to both K and Cannon. 90 minutes to Sugarbush or Burke. And when the snow is good you've got Whaleback 10 minutes away.  Whaleback is as old school, anti-corporate as it gets.  Super fun terrain for a little ski area. Hanover/West Lebanon about 10-15 minutes away with all the services you'll ever need.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## JimG. (Nov 19, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Knowing your summer passion, maybe look at Mascoma lake in Enfield, NH. About an hour to both K and Cannon. 90 minutes to Sugarbush or Burke. And when the snow is good you've got Whaleback 10 minutes away.  Whaleback is as old school, anti-corporate as it gets.  Super fun terrain for a little ski area. Hanover/West Lebanon about 10-15 minutes away with all the services you'll ever need.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Plus I went to college in Hanover so I know the area pretty well. 

About as centrally located in ski country as you can get!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Problem is vt taxes retirement income, which can seriously add up if you plan on being retired for 20 years.



Problem also is VT taxes "2nd homes" at a sadistically punishing rate, you know, because if you have a 2nd home you're obviously one of those "evil rich" people who needs to be punished.  

I've talked to multiple people at Jay Peak who wish they never bought, and now are having a difficult time selling.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 19, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Problem also is VT taxes "2nd homes" at a sadistically punishing rate, you know, because if you have a 2nd home you're obviously one of those "evil rich" people who needs to be punished.



Actually it is a bit more complicated than that as it is not simply a "2nd homes pay higher tax rates across the board in VT" thing. It varies from town to town and year to year.

Currently in Warren and Waitsfield (and other MRV towns), non-residents pay a lower rate on the education portion of the property tax bill than residents do. In other towns like Jay and Stowe, non-residents are currently paying a higher rate on the education portion than residents in those towns.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 20, 2019)

Its why I would not retire there. Buying our place in Stowe was a way to alleviate the need for hotels and may turn a profit due to Vail's presence. But..VT is a pretty expensive place to hang out.


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 20, 2019)

I am in Enfield (NH) as are a couple other folks on here. It is a good town to live in and very centrally located for skiing. I ski (and volunteer) at Whaleback and also have a Ragged pass - only 35 minutes away. Sunapee is about 30 minutes and Killington is about 45 minutes to Skyeship or Bear. The I-93 mountains are not far off either.  In the summer, the amount of outdoor stuff to be done around can't be beat. Like 25% of the town is also water. and hiking galore.

 My wife and I have been trying to find an affordable second home in the Conway region (we also spend a lot of time up there) for quite a while now, but no such luck with prices there. Good luck.


----------



## catskillman (Nov 20, 2019)

JimG. said:


> They won't work with high schools anymore either. Epic resorts want full price for the kids.
> 
> Went to my kid's ski club meeting and the events coordinator was livid about Epic, said they were rude and inflexible.
> 
> So our school district doesn't work with Epic anymore.



This will be terrible for the kids in the Hunter school district.  The kids have free lessons and rentals and lift tickets at Hunter as part of their PE requirements.  Especially hard hit will be the middle and high schoolers - the town is fighting a big drug issue and this will only hurt as it will give the kids less to do.


----------



## catskillman (Nov 20, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Nope...don't care.
> 
> OK - however it is amazing what the company does to the local businesses and their employees.
> 
> It has played true over the years at acquisition after acquistion


----------



## bigbob (Nov 20, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I am in Enfield (NH) as are a couple other folks on here. It is a good town to live in and very centrally located for skiing. I ski (and volunteer) at Whaleback and also have a Ragged pass - only 35 minutes away. Sunapee is about 30 minutes and Killington is about 45 minutes to Skyeship or Bear. The I-93 mountains are not far off either.  In the summer, the amount of outdoor stuff to be done around can't be beat. Like 25% of the town is also water. and hiking galore.
> 
> My wife and I have been trying to find an affordable second home in the Conway region (we also spend a lot of time up there) for quite a while now, but no such luck with prices there. Good luck.



Have you looked over the border east of Conway in Maine? Property taxes are lower along with housing costs and what do you care about the income tax since you are a NH resident. Sales tax avoidance is what Conway is for!


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 21, 2019)

Yes sir, Fryeberg has been in the mix!


----------



## FBGM (Nov 22, 2019)

The herd has been thinned. 

Told ya so

Who’s got the inside know on who’s been axed from Mt Snow?


----------



## drjeff (Nov 22, 2019)

FBGM said:


> The herd has been thinned.
> 
> Told ya so
> 
> Who’s got the inside know on who’s been axed from Mt Snow?


Nobody with the last name of Boyd is what I have heard. Sorry to disappoint you.

If you read the Ski Area Management report on this, sounds like only 2 people, both GM's at an Ohio and one of the last year acquired Snow-time middle Atlantic resorts got the immediate axe. The rest will be kept on until April or in some cases October and potentially offered different jobs in Vail Resorts, which I somewhat read as a "challenge" for those affected to show what they have and why they should be kept on with Vail Resorts challenge this winter. 

84 out of roughly 10,000 employees (full and part time/seasonal) isn't exactly a massive culling of the heard. Although I will say that this probably won't be the last layoffs that Vail Resorts makes of Peak employees as they go through a season or 2 and see what talent they have and how much consolidation they may or may not to make... 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Nov 23, 2019)

SAM article. 

https://www.saminfo.com/headline-ne...ing-changes-at-former-peak-resorts-properties


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2019)

> *positions will be eliminated in several departments*, including human resources, finance and accounting, IT, health and safety, marketing, operations, real estate, reservations, retail/rental, and sales. *In some cases, entire departments were given notice that their employment was ending *come spring. *Most corporate-level positions carried over from Peak Resorts are being eliminated*.



Told y'all.   Even got virtually every department correct.  Didnt have "health & safety", as I have no clue what that is, but this behaviour is S.O.P. in most acquisitions with obvious significant vertical integration opportunities for cost savings.  

The only bit that surprises me is HOW much TIME they're giving these employees, as 5.5 months is a LONG lead-out.  This suggests to me that Vail believes much of what these folks currently do, is only minimally necessary or no longer necessary at all (i.e. Broomfield's got this).


----------



## urungus (Nov 23, 2019)

Are there any discounts or other benefits for Epic pass holders this year at the former Peak resorts?  Only Stowe and Okemo are listed at https://www.epicpass.com/benefits/epic-pass-club/northeast.aspx  (Also says Mount Sunapee benefits to come “Summer 2019”)


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## Edd (Nov 23, 2019)

urungus said:


> Are there any discounts or other benefits for Epic pass holders this year at the former Peak resorts?  Only Stowe and Okemo are listed at https://www.epicpass.com/benefits/epic-pass-club/northeast.aspx  (Also says Mount Sunapee benefits to come “Summer 2019”)



I was at Mt Snow’s retail shop on Thursday. A clerk told me that they still give discounts for Peak pass holders. If you’ve upgraded to Epic, no discount.


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 23, 2019)

No discounts for Epic pass holders, only for people who kept their Peaks pass.

^^^^ Edit: Guess I type pretty slow on the phone.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 23, 2019)

FBGM said:


> The herd has been thinned.
> 
> Told ya so
> 
> Who’s got the inside know on who’s been axed from Mt Snow?



How has the start to your season been?


----------



## drjeff (Nov 23, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> No discounts for Epic pass holders, only for people who kept their Peaks pass.
> 
> ^^^^ Edit: Guess I type pretty slow on the phone.


Short of an occasional logo item or the need for some chapstick or suncreen since I forgot it at the condo, I've always been way more of a fan of buying my gear at the local, independent ski shops in the Valley rather than at Mount Snow's retail shops.

Won't change my shopping habits at all

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Nov 23, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Short of an occasional logo item or the need for some chapstick or suncreen since I forgot it at the condo, I've always been way more of a fan of buying my gear at the local, independent ski shops in the Valley rather than at Mount Snow's retail shops.
> 
> Won't change my shopping habits at all
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



Same here (except replace mt snow with sugarbush in my case). Not only are prices usually better anyway in the off mountain shops, but several of them know me and give me extra discounts anyway!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## njdiver85 (Nov 23, 2019)

Only exception is Mount Snow Bootworks.  Wouldn't trust anyone else!


----------



## 180 (Nov 24, 2019)

Booze prices raised at Hunter, about 5%, except Bud Light


----------



## Glenn (Nov 24, 2019)

That's too bad about the layoffs. Especially if they're fulltime/year round positions.


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## cc1 (Nov 24, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Nobody with the last name of Boyd is what I have heard. Sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> If you read the Ski Area Management report on this, sounds like only 2 people, both GM's at an Ohio and one of the last year acquired Snow-time middle Atlantic resorts got the immediate axe. The rest will be kept on until April or in some cases October and potentially offered different jobs in Vail Resorts, which I somewhat read as a "challenge" for those affected to show what they have and why they should be kept on with Vail Resorts challenge this winter.
> 
> ...


https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-2013-08-20-mc-n-big-boulder-oxycodone-pills-arrests-20130820-story.html

Rumor is that Josh Faber is Boyd's cousin...soooo read between the lines and think what you will about that immediate ax.


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## cc1 (Nov 24, 2019)

catskillman said:


> This will be terrible for the kids in the Hunter school district.  The kids have free lessons and rentals and lift tickets at Hunter as part of their PE requirements.  Especially hard hit will be the middle and high schoolers - the town is fighting a big drug issue and this will only hurt as it will give the kids less to do.



There are a lot of rich people from NYC area, second home owners, lot of air bnb investors making a bundle, that I'm sure wouldn't hesitate to contribute to a gofundme for the local kids.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2019)

180 said:


> *Booze prices raised at Hunter, about 5%*, except Bud Light



I imagine you'll be enjoying $17 Vail cheeseburgers relatively soon as well.


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## FBGM (Nov 24, 2019)

cc1 said:


> https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-2013-08-20-mc-n-big-boulder-oxycodone-pills-arrests-20130820-story.html
> 
> Rumor is that Josh Faber is Boyd's cousin...soooo read between the lines and think what you will about that immediate ax.



Lol another part of the Jesse Boyd drug ring. 

I love a place that supports a dirtbag drug dealer. Those pills will end up in your kids schools. Think about that when you give these dirt bags sympathy about loosing jobs. How about loosing lives because of their actions?


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## urungus (Nov 24, 2019)

cdskier said:


> drjeff said:
> 
> 
> > Short of an occasional logo item or the need for some chapstick or suncreen since I forgot it at the condo, I've always been way more of a fan of buying my gear at the local, independent ski shops in the Valley rather than at Mount Snow's retail shops.
> ...



Wasnt even thinking of merch, was hoping for food & beverage discount similar to Stowe & Okemo.  Maybe next year...


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## jaytrem (Nov 24, 2019)

Well tomorrow will be a month since I upgraded.  Still no passes and still no refund.  No too impressed with Vail so far.  Guess I need to give Jack Frost a call and see what's up.  They did manage to spell 2 out of 3 last names incorrectly on our Peak Passes, maybe that's they're excuse.


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## dblskifanatic (Nov 24, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Well tomorrow will be a month since I upgraded.  Still no passes and still no refund.  No too impressed with Vail so far.  Guess I need to give Jack Frost a call and see what's up.  They did manage to spell 2 out of 3 last names incorrectly on our Peak Passes, maybe that's they're excuse.



Might be faster if you go to one of the ski areas!


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## cc1 (Nov 25, 2019)

dblskifanatic said:


> Might be faster if you go to one of the ski areas!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Okemo, Stowe, and Sunapee have capability to print out your hard pass, otherwise you have to get a day ticket until your pass comes in the mail. 

I upgraded on Nov. 16, day before the upgrade deadline, have received my refund and picked up my pass in person.


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## jaytrem (Nov 25, 2019)

cc1 said:


> Okemo, Stowe, and Sunapee have capability to print out your hard pass, otherwise you have to get a day ticket until your pass comes in the mail.
> 
> I upgraded on Nov. 16, day before the upgrade deadline, have received my refund and picked up my pass in person.




Hmmm, guess I should have stopped by Okemo on my way down from Killington.  Figured they would be here by now though.  At least my Peak pass is still working, so I haven't had to deal with the day tix yet.


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## drjeff (Nov 25, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Hmmm, guess I should have stopped by Okemo on my way down from Killington.  Figured they would be here by now though.  At least my Peak pass is still working, so I haven't had to deal with the day tix yet.



From what I have had guest services explain to me, as of right now, none of the former Peak properties can print an Epic pass, even though they (the former Peak resorts) now have access to the Epic pass data base to see if you indeed have bought an Epic pass.

The ability to print an Epic pass onsite at a former Peak resort will be in place for the '20-21 season (potentially even at a few former Peak Resorts later this season). The Epic RFID scanning system will also be installed this coming Summer at the former Peak resorts.

If you want to pick up an Epic pass in person on the East Coast now, it's Stowe or Okemo and then later this week when they open for the season, Sunapee as well. 

Myself and my son (the only 2 in my family who have used our Epic Locals at Mount Snow this season so far, had no difficulties with the scanners reading our Epic's as valid. Apparently some Epic's have had problems being read as valid at Mount Snow atleast this season, so Guest Services set up a small kiosk and the ambassadors out by the ticket window have been asking folks with Epic passes to get a "test scan" out by where the Bullwheel "sculpture" near Mount Snow Sports is, to make sure that when they get their 1st scan after they've been paired up in the queue lane, that it will work without problems.

I am guessing (HOPING) that all of these logistical issues going on with Peak to Epic passes and receiving them in a timely fashion will be a distant memory when the 2nd season of Vail Resorts owning the Peak Resort properties commences in late 2020


----------



## ski&soccermom (Nov 25, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Well tomorrow will be a month since I upgraded.  Still no passes and still no refund.  No too impressed with Vail so far.  Guess I need to give Jack Frost a call and see what's up.  They did manage to spell 2 out of 3 last names incorrectly on our Peak Passes, maybe that's they're excuse.



We had issues getting refund also.  Call your home Peak resort - that is where the refund is initiated from.  Also, when you log in to Epic Pass, are all of your pictures approved?  They approved my son's on the first attempt, but not the rest of us, so his pass came in the mail a full week ahead of the others (there was less than a day in between his approval and ours).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 25, 2019)

I was told they mail them in batches of 5000.  My buddies was printed on 10/26 and mine were printed on 11/12 and neither have been received. 

If I don't have them by 12/1 I am making them print me new ones and over night them to me.  This is ridiculous


Edit:  My buddy whose were printed on 10/26 received his in the mail today.  They were mailed on 11/22. I'm hopeful mine will be in the mail when I get home, but expecting that they won't be.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 25, 2019)

Also I heard over the weekend that Roundtop's GM who has done a great job was let go as of 12/1.   Weird thing is that they are moving the 2 remaining Snow Time GMs to different resorts and Liberty will have an open position.  I also heard that Roudntop's GM wasn't like by his staff and was low man on totem pole.  

Still weird to let a GM go and shake up operations right before ski season starts... It was confirmed that This was a Vail Resorts Move and not Peaks.


----------



## FBGM (Nov 25, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Also I heard over the weekend that Roundtop's GM who has done a great job was let go as of 12/1.   Weird thing is that they are moving the 2 remaining Snow Time GMs to different resorts and Liberty will have an open position.  I also heard that Roudntop's GM wasn't like by his staff and was low man on totem pole.
> 
> Still weird to let a GM go and shake up operations right before ski season starts... It was confirmed that This was a Vail Resorts Move and not Peaks.



lol no crap it’s a Vail move - not sure if you heard but they own these resorts now and there is no more Peak Resorts. 

These are all standard moves after acquisitions. People that don’t fit the mold go.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Nov 25, 2019)

180 said:


> Booze prices raised at Hunter, about 5%, except Bud Light



Glad I have a flask...


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 25, 2019)

ski&soccermom said:


> We had issues getting refund also.  Call your home Peak resort - that is where the refund is initiated from.  Also, when you log in to Epic Pass, are all of your pictures approved?  They approved my son's on the first attempt, but not the rest of us, so his pass came in the mail a full week ahead of the others (there was less than a day in between his approval and ours).



Thanks, I'll give them a call today.  Yup, pics were approved almost a month ago.


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 25, 2019)

Update: I'm not in the spreadsheet that Vail sent over to Jack Frost.  Jack Frost guy is going to call them, but was already on hold for quite a while trying to get through to them today.  Sloppy sloppy Vail!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 25, 2019)

Well as I've been made to understand Vail usually waits 1 season to make these moves. 

but thanks for your incredibly useless negative response.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 25, 2019)

FBGM said:


> lol no crap it’s a Vail move - not sure if you heard but they own these resorts now and there is no more Peak Resorts.
> 
> These are all standard moves after acquisitions. People that don’t fit the mold go.



Well as I've been made to understand Vail usually waits 1 season to make these moves. 

but thanks for your incredibly useless negative response.


----------



## FBGM (Nov 25, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Well as I've been made to understand Vail usually waits 1 season to make these moves.
> 
> but thanks for your incredibly useless negative response.



Wrong. Park City and Whistler acquisitions happened in same manor. Cuts were made this time of year with some getting insta ax while others getting option to run out winter. 

Low hanging fruit is a burden on the expense report.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 25, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Well as I've been made to understand Vail usually waits 1 season to make these moves.
> 
> but thanks for your incredibly useless negative response.



I guess your understanding was wrong


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 25, 2019)

I guess it was :lol:


----------



## catskillman (Nov 25, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I guess it was :lol:




It was smart on Vail's part to tell those now that their positions were being eliminated in the Spring.

This was they will be giving 150% in hopes that they get another position and/or they hope they find a position elsewhere and Vail saves severance and unemployment.

I have seen it over and over and over with M&A's


----------



## mgalluzz (Nov 25, 2019)

They just announced the epic pass is still on sale another week. There's an earnings call on December 9th.  I wonder if they haven't sold enough passes yet to satisfy their earnings projections for the quarter.  Normally there aren't this many "last chances" to buy. They could shoot themselves in the foot if they keep doing this (i.e. boy who cried wolf) I could be way off, but I think it's an interesting move.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 25, 2019)

mgalluzz said:


> They just announced the epic pass is still on sale another week. *There's an earnings call on December 9th.  I wonder if they haven't sold enough passes yet to satisfy their earnings projections for the quarter.  *



They'll be reporting earnings through October 31st.   It takes much longer than 9 days to report earnings.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 25, 2019)

mgalluzz said:


> They just announced the epic pass is still on sale another week. There's an earnings call on December 9th.  I wonder if they haven't sold enough passes yet to satisfy their earnings projections for the quarter.  Normally there aren't this many "last chances" to buy. They could shoot themselves in the foot if they keep doing this (i.e. boy who cried wolf) I could be way off, but I think it's an interesting move.


Not a bad idea to capitalize on the Thanksgiving crowd of the masses with this extension.

As far fetched as it may seem to the tuned in crowd here with respect to the pass world, there are a slew of the masses who have no clue about it, and Vail kicking their last date of sale date back to closer to the last day of IKON sales date may very well sell them a tangible amount of additional EPIC passes...

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 25, 2019)

not epic, but anecdotal re: ikon - i was at a work drinks thing last week and was chatting with someone who started telling me about his off-peak trips with the family planned to killington and tremblant. he had no idea ikon existed.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 26, 2019)

My Epic Passes arrived!  yay!  Pics uploaded on the 11th, per vail passes printed on the 12th, arrived on the 26th.  I think I am beating the curve which is ridiculous!

Unfortunately there will be no skiing in southcentral pa this weekend...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 26, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> but thanks for your incredibly useless negative response.



Why do you continually give it sustenance & nourishment?


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 26, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> My Epic Passes arrived!  yay!  Pics uploaded on the 11th, per vail passes printed on the 12th, arrived on the 26th.  I think I am beating the curve which is ridiculous!
> 
> Unfortunately there will be no skiing in southcentral pa this weekend...



Well ya got me beat for sure.  I just got off the phone with Vail.  They did indeed miss putting me in for the refund.  Blamed it on the person taking my order being a "new agent".  That doesn't really explain why my passes still haven't arrived in over a month.  The agent today confirmed everything I uploaded was proper and approved, he also put in an order for those to be shipped again.  Not sure what that even means.  Said things should be quicker since pretty much everyone else was already refunded.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Why do you continually give it sustenance & nourishment?



touche'


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 26, 2019)

sounds like you are on your way... 


I wonder what the numbers are for the upgrades from Peak to Epic will be.  When Peaks bought snowtime  it was reported that 27% of the snowtime pass holders upgraded to a Peaks Pass.  They thought that was a good number I personally thought it was low.  I would have to imagine that the number of Peak Passes ugpraded to some sort of Epic Product will be Much Much higher.


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 26, 2019)

Interesting, they just me a new order confirmation email with today's date on it and a $0.00 charge.  At least that some movement, I guess.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 26, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> sounds like you are on your way...
> 
> 
> I wonder what the numbers are for the upgrades from Peak to Epic will be.  When Peaks bought snowtime  it was reported that 27% of the snowtime pass holders upgraded to a Peaks Pass.  They thought that was a good number I personally thought it was low.  I would have to imagine that the number of Peak Passes ugpraded to some sort of Epic Product will be Much Much higher.



I fully realize that this is anecdotal, and the survey size by no means is massive, or necessarily representative of all Peak passholders, however, within my circle of regular Mount Snow friends, seems like 75-80% of us have done the upgrade to EPIC's.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 26, 2019)

Yeah Everyone I know at Roundtop has upgraded.  However, on the lift the last few weekends it was probably 40-50% which I thought was odd since it was more of a "hard core" crowd.  Lots of People from DC who ski Whitetail and Liberty regularly hadn't upgraded.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 26, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I fully realize that this is anecdotal, and the survey size by no means is massive, or necessarily representative of all Peak passholders, however, within my circle of regular Mount Snow friends, seems like 75-80% of us have done the upgrade to EPIC's.



Opposite experience at wildcat, not met a single person who traded their peak pass for epic. Only met one person on epic, he bought because military dependent was cheap. There is significant anxiety though about season length.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 26, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> My Epic Passes arrived!  yay!  Pics uploaded on the 11th, per vail passes printed on the 12th, arrived on the 26th.  I think I am beating the curve which is ridiculous!
> 
> Unfortunately there will be no skiing in southcentral pa this weekend...



How have you skied three days in PA but there will be no skiing this weekend? Did they close?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 26, 2019)

they had 1 48-hour window 11/13-11/15 of snow making.  laid down enough snow to open 3 routes with about a foot of snow. Its been in the 50s for 2 weeks.   I am happy we got the 3 days we did!  Normally opening on Thanksgiving is a very low percentage option.

I could drive to Big Boulder this weekend, but its like 2 hours.  I'm spoiled to have Roundtop 4 miles from home :lol:


----------



## EPB (Dec 1, 2019)

I don't know where else to ask this, but does anyone know if they are having issues with snowmaking on upper polecat 
 at wildcat? Looks like they have the lower 2/3 open via Tomcat from Lynx.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Smellytele (Dec 1, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I don't know where else to ask this, but does anyone know if they are having issues with snowmaking on upper polecat
> at wildcat? Looks like they have the lower 2/3 open via Tomcat from Lynx.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Skied it last week and it was in great shape although closed.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Edd (Dec 1, 2019)

I skied the lower 2/3 of Polecat also, on Nov 26th. It was ungroomed and powder loaded, also the snow had set up a bit. I don’t know what’s up with snowmaking on Upper Polecat but this is reminding me of an issue 2-3 years ago when they had technical issues with snowmaking in the same area. Not sure if I’m making this up in my head. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## kingslug (Dec 1, 2019)

So..you have to show them your epic at hunter so they can scan the barcode...awesome
The 6 pack just broke down..even awesomer.
Guess ill see what happens tomorrow..im out


----------



## thebigo (Dec 1, 2019)

There was an airline failure on the upper mountain around opening day. This is the reason they were blowing bobcat before upper polecat.


----------



## mattskis (Dec 1, 2019)

Do we think Attitash opens next weekend? How’s their normal opening weekend trail line up usually? Thinking of hitting up the whites with my peak pass next weekend, hoping for enough terrian for it to be worth it for my beginner GF


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## thebigo (Dec 1, 2019)

mattfrancis11 said:


> Do we think Attitash opens next weekend? How’s their normal opening weekend trail line up usually? Thinking of hitting up the whites with my peak pass next weekend, hoping for enough terrian for it to be worth it for my beginner GF
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I can confirm both the triple and yankee were spinning today. Bear and attitash base areas well covered, guns running on saco and morning star all weekend, illusion is well covered, wandering skis and avenger have not seen snowmaking. Wildcat skiied excellent today, good to finally take a right off the lift, natural and woods are filling in. Will try to get some pictures up after dinner and unpacking ski bag. Looking forward to crotched on friday, I expect solstice and a few other clean trees to ski well after 12" of natural.

Edit: picture from today at cat added, did not take many, only had a couple hours and did not want to stop


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## abc (Dec 2, 2019)

Add Peak to Epic probably produces more “technical difficulties”...

That’s what I got when trying to call my them, after gazzilion button pushing, that is!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Dec 10, 2019)

my Epic passes arrived on 11/26.   I received an email TODAY from Vail today saying my passes have been shipped!  :lol:


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2019)

Me too.  And yesterday my refund check finally showed up from Jack Frost.   Only took 6 week and 4 days and 4 phone calls.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 10, 2019)

I filled out the form to upgrade from Peak > Epic and haven't been called.
I joined their chat on 3 different occasions and was told it was OK even though the deadline is passed and someone will reach out to me.


----------



## andrec10 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> I filled out the form to upgrade from Peak > Epic and haven't been called.
> I joined their chat on 3 different occasions and was told it was OK even though the deadline is passed and someone will reach out to me.



You need to call! It's been a clusterfuck.


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## andrec10 (Dec 10, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> my Epic passes arrived on 11/26.   I received an email TODAY from Vail today saying my passes have been shipped!  :lol:



I got a email yesterday that my Pass had been shipped! I have had it for over a month! How can something be run so poorly!


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## Jersey Skier (Dec 10, 2019)

After skiing Hunter last week for the first time this season, I'm just glad Epic didn't do anything to destroy the ambiance of the 40+ year old bathrooms.


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## kingslug (Dec 10, 2019)

They are ..special...


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## andrec10 (Dec 10, 2019)

jersey skier said:


> after skiing hunter last week for the first time this season, i'm just glad epic didn't do anything to destroy the ambiance of the 40+ year old bathrooms.



s t o p !


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> my Epic passes arrived on 11/26.   I received an email TODAY from Vail today saying my passes have been shipped!  :lol:


Today must be the Vail Corp email day!

I too, got an email that my pass should be here within 7 days. 

As I only requested them less than 1 month ago, and haven’t got it, I have to hope they are still going to send mine!:roll:


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## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2019)

abc said:


> Today must be the Vail Corp email day!
> 
> I too, got an email that my pass should be here within 7 days.
> 
> As I only requested them less than 1 month ago, and haven’t got it, I have to hope they are still going to send mine!:roll:



They sent me that same email for a 2nd time a couple hours ago.  I suspect those emails mean nothing.  Maybe they just want to slow down the calls.


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## JimG. (Dec 10, 2019)

Jersey Skier said:


> After skiing Hunter last week for the first time this season, I'm just glad Epic didn't do anything to destroy the ambiance of the 40+ year old bathrooms.



Gotta love the rust on the stall walls near the toilets.


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## 180 (Dec 11, 2019)

rumor is they are building a big new lodge among other things


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## kingslug (Dec 11, 2019)

That would be great. Although my favorite place to rest is at the top ...


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## JimG. (Dec 11, 2019)

180 said:


> rumor is they are building a big new lodge among other things



Belleayre is expanding their base lodge and it has been renovated as well.

Unfortunately someone forgot to pump the septic tank it smelled awful around the lodge last week. Reminded me of the castle in the clouds.


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## andrec10 (Dec 11, 2019)

180 said:


> rumor is they are building a big new lodge among other things



They will need dynamite to demolish that sucker!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2019)

Just finished reading the MTN 1Q20 earnings transcript.

You Peaks people new to Vail are going to to get everything short of a retinal scan & be marketed the helloutof over the next year. LOL

Here's a question an analyst asked that could have come straight from Alpinezone:



> *Q)* Rob, I guess, as *you've kind of doubled your pass base, it feels like over the last handful of years or so, are you starting to see any kind of on-mountain or maybe it's even off-mountain capacity constraints that are kind of prohibiting from selling more passes* going forward?
> 
> *A)* We're not seeing capacity constraints. I think in terms of on-mountain, I think, there are only a handful of days typically in any year that we feel like we run into true capacity issues.



Short version:   There is no crowding!


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## EPB (Dec 12, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just finished reading the MTN 1Q20 earnings transcript.
> 
> You Peaks people new to Vail are going to to get everything short of a retinal scan & be marketed the helloutof over the next year. LOL
> 
> ...


Of course not - crowding problems mean $$$ out the door to address them. Vail wouldn't want the market honed in on that... I wouldn't be surprised if their next move on the east coast will be to play with day ticket rates to incentivize people to go to less crowded areas (e.g Crotched vs. Sunapee).

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## skiur (Dec 12, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Belleayre is expanding their base lodge and it has been renovated as well.
> 
> Unfortunately someone forgot to pump the septic tank it smelled awful around the lodge last week. Reminded me of the castle in the clouds.



Reminds me of when Killington built the peak lodge a few years ago, you could smell raw sewage around it for the next two seasons.


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## kingslug (Dec 12, 2019)

Well..looks like some kind of bathroom renovation taking place now...which might prove a bit difficult since the season has started..and xmas is around the corner.


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## drjeff (Dec 12, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just finished reading the MTN 1Q20 earnings transcript.
> 
> You Peaks people new to Vail are going to to get everything short of a retinal scan & be marketed the helloutof over the next year. LOL
> 
> ...





eastern powder baby said:


> Of course not - crowding problems mean $$$ out the door to address them. Vail wouldn't want the market honed in on that... I wouldn't be surprised if their next move on the east coast will be to play with day ticket rates to incentivize people to go to less crowded areas (e.g Crotched vs. Sunapee).
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



The reality is that most ski areas, at best, reach the capacity of their infrastructure *maybe* 15-25 days a year. The other 340-350 days a year, there's room to expand the potential utilization of the facilities.  Now granted on so many of those days (like say random Tuesday's in May) that's not going to happen, however during the ski season, there certainly is potential to expand the customer utilization of the existing facilities most days.  The business owner side of me completely gets that concept of trying to expand utilization of existing facilities.  The totally self centered ski consumer side of me wishes that on some days, especially where I usually ski and with having seen an increase in utilization of the facilities the last few years, that Rob Katz's plan for Vail Resorts properties tries and encourage a lateral movement of customer utilization away from my home mountain to other resorts within the stable of Vail Resorts properties.  

The struggle in my head between both of those sides of the situation is real! :razz::argue::lol:


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Belleayre is expanding their base lodge and it has been renovated as well.
> 
> Unfortunately someone forgot to pump the septic tank it smelled awful around the lodge last week. Reminded me of the castle in the clouds.



last time i skied belleayre (2017-2018 season, late, probably april, deck party and pond skim day) the dang fireplace in the lodge caught fire and they wouldn't let us inside to get our bags for hours. super fun day, but sitting on that deck for 2+ hours just waiting to retrieve my sneakers and car keys stunk.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 12, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just finished reading the MTN 1Q20 earnings transcript.
> 
> You Peaks people new to Vail are going to to get everything short of a retinal scan & be marketed the helloutof over the next year. LOL
> 
> ...




The biggest thing I think they need to figure out to keep growth going is convincing the locals, at least here in south central PA, that there is value in the Epic pass.  There are A LOT, and way more than you would ever imagine, people who have grown up skiing at Roundtop and have no interest in going anywhere but southcentral PA to ski.  When Peaks came in last year and changed the pass structure and pricing to include "northeast" properties, people went nuts.  There was a pretty large group of people who were skiing on cheap night passes, or even cheap regular passes (They were $499 the year before Peaks) to ski 3 local hills.  IMO snowtime was actually shorting themselves money, but at the same time maybe they weren't.

I guess what I'm trying to say is a lot of these people have claimed to have been priced out and our likely never coming back.  so Vail's challenge is 1) bring these people back, with some sort of local pass option, or whatever 2) then convince these people that because they have access to an epic pass a ski vacation either up north or out west is not as expensive as they think its

someone like me, this is a great play.  I usually go out west at least once and up north at least twice. I'm already considering a 3rd trip up north because the wife loves Okemo and why not, the skiing is free...


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## EPB (Dec 12, 2019)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that most ski areas, at best, reach the capacity of their infrastructure *maybe* 15-25 days a year. The other 340-350 days a year, there's room to expand the potential utilization of the facilities.  Now granted on so many of those days (like say random Tuesday's in May) that's not going to happen, however during the ski season, there certainly is potential to expand the customer utilization of the existing facilities most days.  The business owner side of me completely gets that concept of trying to expand utilization of existing facilities.  The totally self centered ski consumer side of me wishes that on some days, especially where I usually ski and with having seen an increase in utilization of the facilities the last few years, that Rob Katz's plan for Vail Resorts properties tries and encourage a lateral movement of customer utilization away from my home mountain to other resorts within the stable of Vail Resorts properties.
> 
> The struggle in my head between both of those sides of the situation is real! :razz::argue:[emoji38]


It's a tough business in that regard. I'd love to know how much of the typical resort's earnings are generated by skiers that interact primarily with their resort of choice on one of the ~15-25 busiest days of the year.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## asnowmobiler (Dec 12, 2019)

Renovate it up one level!!


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## catskillman (Dec 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just finished reading the MTN 1Q20 earnings transcript.
> 
> You Peaks people new to Vail are going to to get everything short of a retinal scan & be marketed the helloutof over the next year. LOL
> 
> ...



BS!!!  He obviously has not been to Hunter last season or last week Saturday.  They say they are big on safety --- we'll see.........


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## thebigo (Dec 15, 2019)

catskillman said:


> BS!!!  He obviously has not been to Hunter last season or last week Saturday.  They say they are big on safety --- we'll see.........



One very noticeable change this year at crotched is patrol, they have been much more visible and verbal. Actually stationed at spots where ropes are commonly ducked and yelling at people from a distance to not duck. Also roping woods areas commonly used as cut through to avoid skating. I suspect the injury rates at crotched are comparably high given the operating hours and clientele. Really hoping they dont hassle us later in the season when the very regularly skied off map stuff has snow.

And for those of you hoping for new bathrooms at hunter, work continues on the wildcat basement bathrooms. Sometime in october the stalls, sinks, counter and toilets were replaced. On friday they were dry walling over the exposed plumbing. Previous bathrooms had not been touched in the nearly 40 years I have been skiing the cat.


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## chuckstah (Dec 15, 2019)

I've noticed the same thing at Crotched. Patrol is everywhere. I still ignore the closures as always, but I suspect I'll get a warning at some point. In the past ropes have been a suggestion, just like Wildcat. But I'm betting Vail will really dumb it down and yank passes. That will surely drive me away for next season if it happens.  Without the woods and adventure skiing there's only so many hours I can put in there. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 2Planker (Dec 16, 2019)

thebigo said:


> One very noticeable change this year at crotched is patrol, they have been much more visible and verbal. Actually stationed at spots where ropes are commonly ducked and yelling at people from a distance to not duck. Also roping woods areas commonly used as cut through to avoid skating. I suspect the injury rates at crotched are comparably high given the operating hours and clientele. Really hoping they dont hassle us later in the season when the very regularly skied off map stuff has snow.
> 
> And for those of you hoping for new bathrooms at hunter, work continues on the wildcat basement bathrooms. Sometime in october the stalls, sinks, counter and toilets were replaced. On friday they were dry walling over the exposed plumbing. Previous bathrooms had not been touched in the nearly 40 years I have been skiing the cat.



Agreed, I was 12 the first time I went to The Cat, and those bathrooms were what we've had for at least 45 years....

Wifey still prefers downstairs when we BYO lunch. Rarely go up to main level...


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## mbedle (Dec 16, 2019)

chuckstah said:


> I've noticed the same thing at Crotched. Patrol is everywhere. I still ignore the closures as always, but I suspect I'll get a warning at some point. In the past ropes have been a suggestion, just like Wildcat. But I'm betting Vail will really dumb it down and yank passes. That will surely drive me away for next season if it happens.  Without the woods and adventure skiing there's only so many hours I can put in there.
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



Expect some pulled passes, just had a friend lose his for a month at Stowe.


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## snoseek (Dec 16, 2019)

They keep a board at heavenly with the breakdown for lost and suspended passes as a deterrent. The yellow jackets are coming I would imagine.


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## kingslug (Dec 16, 2019)

At Stowe there is a sign warning this..


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## thebigo (Dec 16, 2019)

chuckstah said:


> I've noticed the same thing at Crotched. Patrol is everywhere. I still ignore the closures as always, but I suspect I'll get a warning at some point. In the past ropes have been a suggestion, just like Wildcat. But I'm betting Vail will really dumb it down and yank passes. That will surely drive me away for next season if it happens.  Without the woods and adventure skiing there's only so many hours I can put in there.
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



Daughter and I were yelled at three times on opening weekend by patrol, never even spoke to patrol in the past. The seasonal programs at small local areas are a huge time commitment for parents, only thing that gets me through the shitty days is looking forward to the trees being open. Will be tough to commit to another season if they start hassling people for skiing anything without a three foot manmade base. 

Have not noticed any change in patrol at wildcat.


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## Edd (Dec 16, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Daughter and I were yelled at three times on opening weekend by patrol, never even spoke to patrol in the past.



What were they yelling at you for?


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## andrec10 (Dec 16, 2019)

Edd said:


> What were they yelling at you for?



Nobody ever does anything wrong....Right.


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## thebigo (Dec 16, 2019)

Edd said:


> What were they yelling at you for?



Not claiming we did not ski closed terrain but the same shit never drew the attention of patrol in the past.

Opening night milky way was roped for all but about ten feet, I thought they were trying to control traffic flow but apparently it was closed. Daughter skied through the opening first, I followed her and was chased down by patrol.

Daughter ducked onto ungroomed plutos below the cross over to the triple to play in the powder under the lift, again chased down by patrol and lectured about ropes, safety, objects hidden under the snow and the general difficulty of being on ski patrol when people duck ropes.

Third we had been cutting from lower plutos across the triple to the lodge all weekend. Sunday afternoon near the end of the day they decided to rope from the triple to the woods on the skiers right. There were a number of us, including small children, attempting to cut through that then had to traverse back to the far side of plutos. A couple people ducked the rope to cut about 10 yards back to the open side of lower pluto, patrol lost it and started hollering at the remaining people.

First two I chalked up to opening night: snow was falling on top of the couple of feet that fell that week and visibility was poor. Third was just odd – they could have easily roped to the riders left of the chair, instead they chose to rope in an area that required people to skate out – uphill; then decided to hassle people attempting to cut back to open terrain on packed powder in a highly visible area.


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## Edd (Dec 16, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Have not noticed any change in patrol at wildcat.



I rarely even see patrol at the Cat.


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## mbedle (Dec 17, 2019)

Edd said:


> I rarely even see patrol at the Cat.



Thats going to change next season...


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2019)

Any idea what their skinning policy is (or might be going forward) at crotched?


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## drjeff (Dec 17, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Any idea what their skinning policy is (or might be going forward) at crotched?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Midway down this page is your official answers to their uphill policies this year

https://www.crotchedmtn.com/mountain-safety/


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2019)

Dr Jeff have you seen a more "aggressive" ski patrol approach at Mt Snow?


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## Smellytele (Dec 17, 2019)

So looks like skinning is free and allowed in daylight when they are open. Also no charge. Great thanks


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## drjeff (Dec 17, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Dr Jeff have you seen a more "aggressive" ski patrol approach at Mt Snow?



Honestly haven't noticed much of a difference in what the ambassadors and patrolers are doing. 

What I have noticed, is that more folks (not a huge amount, but sure feels like more folks) are pushing the boundaries on what they're doing on the hill (speed, rope ducking, being courteous, respecting the posted rules, etc) and I think that that may be more of what's going on verses a complete change in the enforcement policy


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2019)

yeah it seems that poaching has become very common at places in the northeast.  I imagine it happens out west, but consequences have the potential to be much worse, DEATH, than just having your pass pulled or yelled at by patrol.


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## FBGM (Dec 17, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yeah it seems that poaching has become very common at places in the northeast.  I imagine it happens out west, but consequences have the potential to be much worse, DEATH, than just having your pass pulled or yelled at by patrol.



Who is dying from poaching something at a resort? Unless you’re running into a snowcat on a closed trail or snap a femur on a ground gun on a closed trail. If that’s the case, we are just thinning the heard of the dumb.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2019)

I was referring to poaching out west where you could be killed in an avalanche.


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## andrec10 (Dec 17, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I was referring to poaching out west where you could be killed in an avalanche.



Or fall off a unmarked cliff!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2019)

A skier ducked a rope & triggered an in-bounds avalanche at Copper Mountain just this weekend, but luckily nobody was below.


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## jaytrem (Dec 17, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Honestly haven't noticed much of a difference in what the ambassadors and patrolers are doing.
> 
> What I have noticed, is that more folks (not a huge amount, but sure feels like more folks) are pushing the boundaries on what they're doing on the hill (speed, rope ducking, being courteous, respecting the posted rules, etc) and I think that that may be more of what's going on verses a complete change in the enforcement policy



I did notice some patrollers speaking with a guy that was snowing up Long John the other day.  Was wondering if they were just chatting or enforcing some policy.

I do hope they continue to be liberal with the trail openings and still use the good ol "thin cover/variable condition" signs.


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## abc (Dec 17, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yeah it seems that poaching has become very common at places in the northeast. *I imagine it happens out west, but consequences have the potential to be much worse*, DEATH, than just having your pass pulled or yelled at by patrol.





FBGM said:


> Who is dying from poaching something at a resort? Unless you’re running into a snowcat on a closed trail or snap a femur on a ground gun on a closed trail. If that’s the case, we are just thinning the heard of the dumb.





jimmywilson69 said:


> I was referring to poaching out west where you could be killed in an avalanche.





andrec10 said:


> Or fall off a unmarked cliff!


Well, I suppose those who are dumb enough he can't figure out the danger of poaching out west are prime to be thin from the "herd of the dumb"


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## GregoryIsaacs (Dec 17, 2019)

abc said:


> Well, I suppose those who are dumb enough he can't figure out the danger of poaching out west are prime to be thin from the "herd of the dumb"



As if we ever needed proof that FBGM was stupid........ Can we put this post on a wall-of-shame somewhere?


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## andrec10 (Dec 17, 2019)

gregoryisaacs said:


> as if we ever needed proof that fbgm was stupid........ Can we put this post on a wall-of-shame somewhere?



winning!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 17, 2019)

Why he so dumb, when he hears explosions going off he assumes there's a celebration going on.


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## 2Planker (Dec 17, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Who is dying from poaching something at a resort? Unless you’re running into a snowcat on a closed trail or *snap a femur on a ground gun on a closed trail*. If that’s the case, we are just thinning the heard of the dumb.



Responded to that very scenario, years ago @ SR.
Made for a bad day for a whole bunch of people.

Dude did OK after a lil help from Life Flight


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## Jcb890 (Dec 17, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Honestly haven't noticed much of a difference in what the ambassadors and patrolers are doing.
> 
> What I have noticed, is that more folks (not a huge amount, but sure feels like more folks) are pushing the boundaries on what they're doing on the hill (speed, rope ducking, being courteous, respecting the posted rules, etc) and I think that that may be more of what's going on verses a complete change in the enforcement policy


Agreed. I think once the season hits full steam we'll see more folks out there 'policing' in the slow zones. However, that seemed to be more common/more of a trend the past few seasons anyways.

Not sure I agree with the 'pushing boundaries' portion... any good examples on that one? Perhaps just some different clientele who ride/ski as they normally do at their regular results, however, have come to check out Mt. Snow early season.

[rant] One thing that always bugs me is people stopping in terrible spots. I understand it's the person coming downhill who is responsible to keep things safe and not cause problems, but people need to stop on the sides of the trail and not on down-slopes, etc. I have seen a bunch of that this season with people putting themselves in possibly dangerous positions. [/rant] :lol:


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 17, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> I understand it's the person coming downhill who is responsible to keep things safe and not cause problems, but people need to stop on the sides of the trail and not on down-slopes, etc. :lol:



Debatable, run em down, see #3....



Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.
You must not stop where you obstruct a trail, or are not visible from above.
Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others.
Always use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.
Observe all posted signs and warnings. Keep off closed trails and out of closed areas.
Prior to using any lift, you must have the knowledge and ability to load, ride and unload safely.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 17, 2019)

^^ Sooo many people are oblivious to #4 on that list[emoji35][emoji849]


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 17, 2019)

Yeah amazingly bad at #4. Like do these people pull out into traffic like that in their cars??!!

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## spring_mountain_high (Dec 17, 2019)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> ^^ Sooo many people are oblivious to #4 on that list[emoji35][emoji849]



know the code, chode!


----------



## Cornhead (Dec 18, 2019)

I don't think I made a single run without violating rule 6 yesterday. None of the poaching was done alone. I think that's the biggest problem with skiing closed terrain is that if you were alone, and something were to happen, and you couldn't summon help with your phone, you could be in trouble. 

The shit we were skiing was definitely hazardous to your equipment, little or no base, but except for the occasional water bar, the risk was minimal. Sometimes it's hard to believe the closures aren't just "suggestions". We skied Belleayre on 12/2 after 23" and there were 3 trails officially open. I'm pretty sure the ropes were to prevent the, "Let's ski this one" only to be confronted with two foot high brush poking through the steep parts, with the inevitable water bar at the transition to the flatter part. To expect everyone to stay on 3 groomed blue and green trails with two feet of fresh snow is just unrealistic.

Poaching out west is a whole different animal. I don't think I would ever do it.

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## kbroderick (Dec 18, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Yeah amazingly bad at #4. Like do these people pull out into traffic like that in their cars??!!



Yes, many of them drive just as poorly as they ski, and they park almost as badly.


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## urungus (Dec 18, 2019)

More Vail layoffs https://www.summitdaily.com/news/va...third-round-of-companywide-layoffs-this-year/


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## FBGM (Dec 18, 2019)

urungus said:


> More Vail layoffs https://www.summitdaily.com/news/va...third-round-of-companywide-layoffs-this-year/



The motto makes sense. No one likes to hear it. But makes sense from a business and money line. Vail needs to keep the shareholders happy. Robby Meow Cats needs that extra bonus to keep that smile that big.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 18, 2019)

ouch. people who got to live and work in professional roles in mountain towns fired and given the option to apply to broomfield with no guarantee of transferring. that's rough. hard for a finance/HR/marketing professional to find other work up in summit county. fuckin vail.


----------



## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ouch. people who got to live and work in professional roles in mountain towns fired and given the option to apply to broomfield with no guarantee of transferring. that's rough. hard for a finance/HR/marketing professional to find other work up in summit county. *fuckin vail*.


I'm not a Vail Corp fan. But in this case, I'll defend their business. With the new acquisition, they actually need MORE finance/HR/marketing professionals. The question is where they're located. Summit county is pretty expensive. So expanding their footprint in Summit county will cost more than expanding in Bloomfield. It's not entirely surprising they choose to move down to the city. At least they're not moving to Texas.  

As you said "hard for a finance/HR/marketing professional to find *other *work up in summit county". They know that when they move there. Or they should. 

Everybody bitch about the I-70 traffic. No one ever stop to think why those weekend skiers don't all move up to the mountains instead of suffering the 2 hr traffic jam! The answer is, there're a lot more job opportunities in Denver/Boulder than up in Summit county. 

In my years of working in large corporations, I've seen several such "corporate relocation" happening next to me. Here in NYC, few took such "offers" because "other works" are usually plentiful locally. But if the same thing happens in North Conway, where "other works" are relatively hard to come by, it would be much tougher situation for those affected. 

There're reason why so many of us "choose" to live in the flat land. Away from the mountains and snow. 

Unless you own your own business, you're never entirely free to choose where to work and live.


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## kingslug (Dec 18, 2019)

Its why I am still working in NYC. Even the pay in CT is half what I make..SLC 1/4.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2019)

urungus said:


> More Vail layoffs https://www.summitdaily.com/news/va...third-round-of-companywide-layoffs-this-year/



Merry Christmas!


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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Merry Christmas!


It's the corporate bullsh*t of making the year end report look good. 

I got "lucky" 3 years back when they laid me off before Thanksgiving instead of right before Christmas. I promptly bought a season pass and went on my best season of skiing the whole of north America! But if it were to happen now, all the "big" multi-mountain season passes are no longer available.

I wish those Vail employee luck going forward. It was quite a shock when it happened to me back then. But having gone through that, I'm a lot more mentally prepared.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 18, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ouch. people who got to live and work in professional roles in mountain towns fired and given the option to apply to broomfield with no guarantee of transferring. that's rough. hard for a finance/HR/marketing professional to find other work up in summit county. fuckin vail.





abc said:


> I'm not a Vail Corp fan. But in this case, I'll defend their business. With the new acquisition, they actually need MORE finance/HR/marketing professionals. The question is where they're located. Summit county is pretty expensive. So expanding their footprint in Summit county will cost more than expanding in Bloomfield. It's not entirely surprising they choose to move down to the city. At least they're not moving to Texas.
> 
> As you said "hard for a finance/HR/marketing professional to find *other *work up in summit county". They know that when they move there. Or they should.
> 
> ...





kingslug said:


> Its why I am still working in NYC. Even the pay in CT is half what I make..SLC 1/4.



This all pretty much sums up the challenge that it is to live where you want, work a job you like and want to work, and get paid what you feel you should be, and have all 3 of those align.  And when that doesn't always happen, or changes happen to the status quo that some have acquired to try and make all of those 3 things happen, it can certainly come as a shock to the system, especially in this day and age where so many careers allow a mobile presence that can allow all 3 of those factors to align, but may not be sustainable within the corporate structure that pays the bills that allows the lifestyle and location.

While sometimes I envy the mobility that other careers offer, there are also many times where I appreciate the stability that owning my own business, and of a nature where frankly unless I want to start over from scratch, I know where I am going to be until I decide that the day to retire has come. 

In this instance, it sounds like some of the previously more local, resort specific, finance jobs through Vail Resorts, will amount into a bigger, full company, finance job option, of higher stature, but it will come with the choice of relocation down into Bloomfield, or a long commute, or a 2nd residence and some days during the week away from the family.  Sounds somewhat like some "adulting" decisions will need to be addressed for many of these affected


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2019)

abc said:


> *Unless you own your own business, you're never entirely free to choose where to work and live.*



This will all change once the white & gray haired people are no longer in charge, and the Millennials inherit the earth.  

Woe I say to you, on that day great sorrow awaits the owners of commercial real estate, for there will be wailing in the night & gnashing of teeth.

There is already no reason for most people in certain disciplines (finance, accounting, logistics, just to name a few, etc...) to work in a large, incredibly expensive, corporate structure.  I could do 100% of my job anywhere in the contiguous United States.  As a former professional prognosticator, I believe there will be a commercial real estate crisis in America in < 20 years.  Much of it (2nd belief) will be refitted for living space & turned into mixed-use, but mostly residential.


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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> This will all change once the white & gray haired people are no longer in charge, and the Millennials inherit the earth.


I don't know what Millennials you're hanging out with. Because I see a lot of them in NYC! 

They may have come here for *A* job. But they stay job after job after job, the most they do is to move to another city! Many of them don't even own cars. Good luck living in the mountains.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 18, 2019)

drjeff said:


> In this instance, it sounds like some of the previously more local, resort specific, finance jobs through Vail Resorts, will amount into a bigger, full company, finance job option, of higher stature, but it will come with the choice of relocation down into Bloomfield, or a long commute, or a 2nd residence and some days during the week away from the family.  Sounds somewhat like some "adulting" decisions will need to be addressed for many of these affected



it didnt even come with the choice to relocate. it came with an invitation to reapply like some putz off the street.

i get the corporate priorities at play, but doing this to people a week before xmas is fucked.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2019)

abc said:


> I don't know what Millennials you're hanging out with. Because *I see a lot of them in NYC! *



You missed the point.



KustyTheKlown said:


> *it didnt even come with the choice to relocate. it came with an invitation to reapply like some putz off the street.*  i get the corporate priorities at play, but doing this to people a week before xmas is fucked.



That bit's very telling. 

 I highly suspect what that means is the finance departments at those areas operated primarily in a legacy capacity, whereas Vail now wants them to do things, "the Vail way", and as such, the company thinks new blood is better, and wont have any "our way was better" preconceptions or anti Vail corporate biases.  Agree that the Christmas firing is crappy, and at the very least politically tone-deaf, but what is Vail if not tone-deaf.


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## mbedle (Dec 18, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> it didnt even come with the choice to relocate. it came with an invitation to reapply like some putz off the street.
> 
> i get the corporate priorities at play, but doing this to people a week before xmas is fucked.



While it would suck to get the notice before Christmas, at least they have a job until spring.


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## machski (Dec 18, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> You missed the point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And/or before they made the cuts in Summit county, they had pre-staffed up in Broomfield.  This why no offers for direct transfer, there may not be many positions available.  It would be even more harsh to offer the top few a direct transfer and just cut everyone else loose.

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## BenedictGomez (Dec 18, 2019)

machski said:


> And/or *before they made the cuts in Summit county, they had pre-staffed up in Broomfield.*  This why no



  Wow.  And I'm sure those folks were quite familiarized with Keystone & Breck's data etc.... LOL


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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

mbedle said:


> While it would suck to get the notice before Christmas, at least they have a job until spring.


Not sure they actually "have a job" or just being paid till spring. Otherwise, why announce it before Christmas? Unless it's to make their year end number look good on the book.


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## Jcb890 (Dec 18, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Debatable, run em down, see #3....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I'm okay then and I can defend taking that lady out last week... :grin:


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## kingslug (Dec 18, 2019)

........


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## drjeff (Dec 18, 2019)

abc said:


> Not sure they actually "have a job" or just being paid till spring. Otherwise, why announce it before Christmas? Unless it's to make their year end number look good on the book.



Agree.  Not sure if it's a "your severance package is you get paid until Spring" or if it's a "show us what you've got, especially now that we brought a bunch of other people in similar positions from Peak, and why we should have you working in Bloomfield" situation.  Or the more likely answer is that its both a combo of the above, as well as none of the above going on since us "arm chair" ski industry managers think we have more of a clue about this than we actually do! ;-):lol:


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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

drjeff said:


> us "arm chair" ski industry managers think we have more of a clue about this than we actually do! ;-):lol:


I don't know how much "ski industry" specific management is, or just corporate management bs. 

I've been through a couple of big mergers. It's more like... "we don't need ALL these people from both companies, let's shake them up and see how many are left in a few months". 

The moving to Bloomfield is going to hurt. But I suspect they're expecting some "natural attrition" (yes, there's such a term!) from those who doesn't want to move (and can afford not to move). So some of those who're willing to move will likely get a similar job. 

No one would be surprised if the Peak people got laid off. But I think people are a bit more surprised when the original Vail people are let go.

Anyway, it sucks for those affected.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2019)

Broomfield makes perfect sense for centralized office work.  Far greater talent pool there vs Summit County, yet it still has the attraction of being close enough to the Front Range for people to view the free pass as a nice perk.  

Unless I owned my own business, I wouldn't want to have my family living in a tourist destination.  Far too few good jobs in such a location if something goes wrong with a current employer.  And I say this as someone who works remotely and could probably pull off living much closer to ski mountains than I currently do.   I could easily call a place like Plymouth, NH home with my current job.   

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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Unless I owned my own business, I wouldn't want to have my family living in a tourist destination.  Far too few good jobs in such a location if something goes wrong with a current employer.


But sometimes, a good job/"right" job comes along at a desirable location. I wouldn't say no to it. I'd accept it and enjoy it WHILE IT LAST, as long as I can envision a viable "exit strategy" in case things change.


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## kingslug (Dec 18, 2019)

It seems all that ive read or heard first hand about living and working in the ski industry..is not good. Housing problems,wages,layoffs. At hunter a local who works there was complaining that all the housing is being bought and converted to air BB's. He took 2 years to find something affordable. Seems like the only ones making out these days are thoses that go to resorts to ski..


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2019)

abc said:


> But sometimes, a good job/"right" job comes along at a desirable location. I wouldn't say no to it. I'd accept it and enjoy it WHILE IT LAST, as long as I can envision a viable "exit strategy" in case things change.


Don't you live near NYC and haven't I read of you poo pooing on Albany as a place of poor opportunity?  Do you think a place like Breckenridge might afford better?

I've lived / worked in resort towns plenty.  The people with sustainable working age lives with what I would qualify as having potential for a comfortable retirement were either business owners or trustafarians.  The exceptions to that rule were extremely rare.  

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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Don't you live near NYC and haven't I read of you poo pooing on Albany as a place of poor opportunity?  Do you think a place like Breckenridge might afford better?


Precisely my point!

Breckenridge does NOT have good opportunities. But, if one doesn’t mind the uncertainty, and doesn’t mind the possibility of having to move, it would work out well FOR A WHILE. 

Life is to be lived. Risk are sometimes taken. As long as one is prepared for the downside.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2019)

abc said:


> Precisely my point!
> 
> Breckenridge does NOT have good opportunities. But, if one doesn’t mind the uncertainty, and doesn’t mind the possibility of having to move, it would work out well FOR A WHILE.
> 
> Life is to be lived. Risk are sometimes taken. As long as one is prepared for the downside.


How often have you taken that risk? 

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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> How often have you taken that risk?


About once every 10 years or s, give or take.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 18, 2019)

abc said:


> About once every 10 years or s, give or take.


Where?

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## abc (Dec 18, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Where?


West coast. 

Bit it it wasn’t for skiing. It’s for mountain biking (and personal relation). Though it got me started skiing the unique west coast snow and terrain too. 

I don’t regret it, even though I ended up moving back east. I had a blast while there. And still landed on my feet when it’s over.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 19, 2019)

Well sure.  I've lived in 6 different states in the past 25 years including 4 different resort towns.  I don't regret any of it either.  

That being said, I'm referring specifically to someone in my circumstances today.  Mid career with young kids.  I'm only going to consider places where plentiful opportunities exist with good school systems that don't require moving with a job change.  It's more about the disruption to my family life than me personally / professionally.  So, Summit County would have little appeal compared to Denver.

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## abc (Dec 19, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> That being said, I'm referring specifically to someone in my circumstances today.  Mid career with young kids.  I'm only going to consider places where plentiful opportunities exist with good school systems that don't require moving with a job change.  It's more about the disruption to my family life than me personally / professionally.  So, Summit County would have little appeal compared to Denver.


That, I agree totally. With a family and young kids, it's a very different story. Especially when it comes to kids, stability is important. 

That said, when I was growing up, I got moved with my family. Not a lot, but moved nonetheless. The first time was a bit rough. But then I got used to it and thrived. New school, no baggage, new start to re-invent myself. My two cousins, who were military families, LOVED their nomadic upbringing! I remember envying them for their travel when their Dad got re-deployed to different part of the country. Probably help that both of them were outgoing popular charismatic boys. Natural leaders wherever they landed.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 19, 2019)

We moved right before I went to high school.  I'd actually say I enjoyed the high school experience better than where I lived prior. 

That said, for me currently, the pay raise would have to be massive for me to consider changing where I am currently.  Love our town, school system and if I switch jobs, I could do so easily without changing a thing with my home life.  

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## abc (Dec 20, 2019)

I got hit by something like 20 emails from the various Vail Corp mountains today!!!

Interestingly, when I went to unsubscribe, I was informed I will be opting out of ALL vail resort emails. 

I shall see.


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## jimmywilson69 (Dec 20, 2019)

yeah I did too...

They were in my junk folder.


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## jaytrem (Dec 20, 2019)

For some odd reason they sent me a 2nd set of passes.  I now wonder if a 3rd set is going to show up since they recently sent me 2 emails let me know they're about to mail my passes.  I just hope they all work properly.  Not counting on it.


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## slatham (Jan 17, 2020)

* Vail Resorts slumped after saying the North American ski
season is off to a slower start this year, confirming Wall
Street concerns.
* The shares initially sank as much as 4.9% on Friday before
paring declines; it was their biggest drop since last January’s
disappointing mid-season update
* Total skier visits were down 7.8% for the season-to-date
through Jan. 5, while lift ticket revenue was up 0.4% and ski
school revenue was up 2%
* Slower start to ski season affected both local and destination
guest visitation in pre-holiday period through Dec. 19; results
improved over holiday period excluding Whistler Blackcomb &
Stevens Pass
** Snowfall at Whistler Blackcomb was 60% below 30-year average
through Dec. 31, the lowest snowfall recorded in over 30 years
** “In recent weeks, conditions have improved at Whistler
Blackcomb with nearly all of the terrain now open.”
* Sees FY resort reported Ebitda within guidance range given
strong season pass sales


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## njdiver85 (Jan 17, 2020)

slatham said:


> * Total skier visits were down 7.8% for the season-to-date
> through Jan. 5,



Those missing 7.8% skier visits are probably over at Mount Snow, where they are so overwhelmed by the crowds and lift issues that they seem to have largely given up on scanning tickets or passes!


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Those missing 7.8% skier visits are probably over at Mount Snow, where they are so overwhelmed by the crowds and lift issues that they seem to have largely given up on scanning tickets or passes!



The reason for lack of scanning that the lifties keep saying is that there's an issue with the internet connectivity of the current handheld scanners, that were used by Peak, and apparently not completely patched into the EPIC system.....

My "favorite" part is that randomly, one's EPIC pass will scan as "invalid" even after it has scanned valid multiple days before, and then you get to go to guest services and get a printed ticket for the day, until the system has updated and your EPIC pass is once again reactivated in their system.  That happened to my son last Saturday. He was heading for the Bluebird with me at 7:30AM for AM Express, and even after having used his EPIC pass without any problems close to 20 times since November at both Mount Snow and Okemo this season to date, it scanned as invalid, and after the liftie let us up for 1 run, we went to guest services, they printed him a ticket, and checked off some online waiver that apparently the system thought I hadn't signed for him when we bought our EPIC's (but we did), and then his pass was fine the next day.

This entire integration of Peak Passes and EPIC passes and the multiple pieces of equipment it's entailing certainly hasn't been a seamless process.....


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## slatham (Jan 17, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Those missing 7.8% skier visits are probably over at Mount Snow, where they are so overwhelmed by the crowds and lift issues that they seem to have largely given up on scanning tickets or passes!



No, it was because of:

** Snowfall at Whistler Blackcomb was 60% below 30-year average
through Dec. 31, the lowest snowfall recorded in over 30 years


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## dblskifanatic (Jan 17, 2020)

7.8% that means I have to get out more to boost the numbers.  Actually based on Colorado traffic, I am surprised.  In four years since we have been here, I have never seen it so busy.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> 7.8% that means I have to get out more to boost the numbers.  Actually based on Colorado traffic, I am surprised. * In four years since we have been here, I have never seen it so busy.
> *



Note: Virtually everything where you are is either EPIC or IKON'ic.  Circumstantial evidence bit #5,821.


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## thebigo (Jan 18, 2020)

drjeff said:


> The reason for lack of scanning that the lifties keep saying is that there's an issue with the internet connectivity of the current handheld scanners, that were used by Peak, and apparently not completely patched into the EPIC system.....
> 
> My "favorite" part is that randomly, one's EPIC pass will scan as "invalid" even after it has scanned valid multiple days before, and then you get to go to guest services and get a printed ticket for the day, until the system has updated and your EPIC pass is once again reactivated in their system.  That happened to my son last Saturday. He was heading for the Bluebird with me at 7:30AM for AM Express, and even after having used his EPIC pass without any problems close to 20 times since November at both Mount Snow and Okemo this season to date, it scanned as invalid, and after the liftie let us up for 1 run, we went to guest services, they printed him a ticket, and checked off some online waiver that apparently the system thought I hadn't signed for him when we bought our EPIC's (but we did), and then his pass was fine the next day.
> 
> This entire integration of Peak Passes and EPIC passes and the multiple pieces of equipment it's entailing certainly hasn't been a seamless process.....



I am around 30 days between the three NH properties and have not seen a single scanning issue. Indeed as someone who works with software everyday, I have thought multiple times that the integration was extraordinarily well done.


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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

Empty..that  pass blackout really cut the crowds..picking up a bit now but ive been alone on goat and starr all day..


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## kendo (Jan 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Empty..that  pass blackout really cut the crowds..picking up a bit now but ive been alone on goat and starr all day..




you must be poaching closed trails.  :grin:


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## drjeff (Jan 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Empty..that  pass blackout really cut the crowds..picking up a bit now but ive been alone on goat and starr all day..


We'll send them North up 100 for you tomorrow Kingslug! [emoji6]

A big, and still building crowd at Mount Snow now.....

10 runs so far, very nice snow surfaces (short of 1 gun on Ridge that was just s

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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

No poaching...middle goat, middle and lower starr, lookout, chin clip..all open
Spent the whole day in the bumps


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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

Middle Starr


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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

Goat


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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

More middle Starr


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## catskillman (Jan 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Empty..that  pass blackout really cut the crowds..picking up a bit now but ive been alone on goat and starr all day..



HUnter is a disaster.  They sold 7,100 tickets today + the passholders = severe overcrowding and unsafe skiing

Just a week or so ago, all employees were required to watch the Vail safety videos !!!  WTF


----------



## kendo (Jan 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> No poaching...middle goat, middle and lower starr, lookout, chin clip..all open
> Spent the whole day in the bumps



Looks great and radar looks good for the overnight.  First chair should be great.


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## kingslug (Jan 18, 2020)

Thinking about going to the bush..blackout plus mlk plus snow storm equals insane crowds at stowe and only 2 real lifts to put them...at least at the bush you can spread out...stowe needs to replace the double...its time


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## 180 (Jan 18, 2020)

catskillman said:


> HUnter is a disaster.  They sold 7,100 tickets today + the passholders = severe overcrowding and unsafe skiing
> 
> Just a week or so ago, all employees were required to watch the Vail safety videos !!!  WTF



No lines on Zephyer or North all day.  Yes, very busy on the front.  They made a ton of snow on most trails


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## kendo (Jan 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Thinking about going to the bush..blackout plus mlk plus snow storm equals insane crowds at stowe and only 2 real lifts to put them...at least at the bush you can spread out...stowe needs to replace the double...its time



Agree on the double.   Need more capacity to the top.   Kind of like Hunter.  6 pack overloaded with the masses.   Enjoy tomorrow at SB!


----------



## So Inclined (Jan 19, 2020)

180 said:


> No lines on Zephyer or North all day.  Yes, very busy on the front.  They made a ton of snow on most trails



Hellgate was shockingly uncrowded when we took our first runs on it, around 11 AM. Weekday uncrowded.


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## njdiver85 (Jan 19, 2020)

Was a “great” start to a powder day at Mount Snow with Summit Express chair down for the first 30 minutes with lines full and no information from the lifties who chose to huddle in their shack.  Vail can’t shake things up fast enough here.  No accountability so employees could not care less.  When lift did open, it was a free for all as line attendants were still not out of the shack.  People were shouting at each other.  Nice vibe!  Outpost opened late so North Face also long waits even early.


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## Edd (Jan 19, 2020)

Mt Snow + MLK Sunday + fresh powder = no thanks. 


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----------



## FBGM (Jan 19, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Was a “great” start to a powder day at Mount Snow with Summit Express chair down for the first 30 minutes with lines full and no information from the lifties who chose to huddle in their shack.  Vail can’t shake things up fast enough here.  No accountability so employees could not care less.  When lift did open, it was a free for all as line attendants were still not out of the shack.  People were shouting at each other.  Nice vibe!  Outpost opened late so North Face also long waits even early.



I fully believe this will be fixed next winter. The Current workforce there is very sub par. No one cares. Now with Vail takeover they all really don’t care. Vail just needs to limp through the rest of season. Close beginning April. Then do their final staff cuts and full reorganization of that mountains staffing. I’ve never seen a more cancerous staff environment then that place. Clean fucking house Vail. You can do so much better there.


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## gregnye (Jan 19, 2020)

FBGM said:


> The Current workforce there is very sub par. I’ve never seen a more cancerous staff environment then that place. Clean fucking house Vail. You can do so much better there.



Too be fair Mt. Snow is one of the last resorts I'd want to work for. It would like be working for the a Registry of Motor Vehicles--The visitors are clueless, and the masses just keep coming, no matter how fast or slow you work.


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## kingslug (Jan 19, 2020)

Didnt go to SB..which worked out great as Stowe was not the shitshow i imagined...even the ride up the double was ok..my best day this season..


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## thebigo (Jan 19, 2020)

According to several staff I spoke with and the observations of many longtime customers, today was the busiest day ever at crotched. Was told they stopped selling tickets midafternoon. Chairs on rocket were going up 1/2 full in AM but they did a better job managing the line in the pm. Max line for rocket was around 15 minutes, singles around 5 minutes. There was a line for the double all afternoon, quad and triple were ski on. Surface held up well and excluding moonwalk the hill did not feel crowded. The lodge and parking lot were completely overwhelmed, staff simply could not keep anything clean, nowhere to sit, water not working, cars parking along the road, unable to get food out. Crotched runs with a skeleton crew of extremely dedicated long term employees, they did everything possible today but their task was impossible. Mid afternoon, patrol chipped in to help manage lifelines, a actually man lift shacks and pass out water bottles to exhausted employees.

Talked to a number of people, one family were Pat's skiers who said they waited over 1/2 hour to park at Pat's before giving up and driving to crotch, another were sunapee skiers that left early morning due to crowding and decided to try crotch, another were wachusett skiers trying crotch for the first time, their comment was they liked the crotch because of how uncrowded it was. 

Today was the perfect storm but crowds have been up considerably all year at crotch. The mountain has the capacity but they need to do a better job managing the rocket lift line. Also are going to need to find a longterm plan for the lodge, desperately need more space both downstairs and upstairs for busy days. Moonwalk is also a safety hazard on days like today, I have heard many different ideas to fix it but seen none implemented.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 19, 2020)

thebigo said:


> *According to several staff I spoke with and the observations of many longtime customers, today was the busiest day ever at crotched. *The lodge and parking lot were completely overwhelmed, staff simply could not keep anything clean, nowhere to sit, water not working, cars parking along the road, unable to get food out. Mid afternoon, patrol chipped in to help manage lifelines, a actually man lift shacks and pass out water bottles to exhausted employees.



I'm sure that it had absolutely nothing to do with it being EPIC now.


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## abc (Jan 20, 2020)

Surprisingly, at Wildcat I was able to find chairs to sit and table to eat my lunch at, even though the line for food was 10 deep (which I find “too long”). And a family who just arrived (at 11:30) was equally surprised she was able to find parking as some early bird had started leaving!:roll: 

I bet it has absolutely everything to do with being on EPIC now! :wink:


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## Los (Jan 20, 2020)

abc said:


> Surprisingly, at Wildcat I was able to find chairs to sit and table to eat my lunch at, even though the line for food was 10 deep (which I find “too long”). And a family who just arrived (at 11:30) was equally surprised she was able to find parking as some early bird had started leaving!:roll:
> 
> I bet it has absolutely everything to do with being on EPIC now! :wink:



Posters on this site tend to be annoyingly optimistic. But your take on the conditions at Wildcat yesterday is really over the top. The lodge was a nightmare through and through.


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## Edd (Jan 20, 2020)

Los said:


> Posters on this site tend to be annoyingly optimistic. But your take on the conditions at Wildcat yesterday is really over the top. The lodge was a nightmare through and through.



I’m a bit of a Wildcat homer, but a weekday skier. You saying this gives me a bit of relief about its future. I’d never tolerate those crowds but I need that place to stay open.


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## EPB (Feb 8, 2020)

Apparently, the summit triple at Attitash broke down today and they had to rope people off of it. That will help it stay top of mind for Vail.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Feb 8, 2020)

I saw that.  They were oh so generous to give those who got screwed a free hot chocolate. 

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## Glenn (Feb 8, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I saw that.  They were oh so generous to give those who got screwed a free hot chocolate.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



How times have changed! A number of years ago, my wife and I got stuck on the Bluebird at Mount Snow for an extended period of time(maybe 20+ minutes? I can't recall exactly). At the top of the lift, we were handed a voucher good for a free day of skiing/riding or a free all day rental. I ended up using mine to rent a snowboard that year. I hadn't ridden a board for years!


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## thebigo (Feb 8, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Apparently, the summit triple at Attitash broke down today and they had to rope people off of it. That will help it stay top of mind for Vail.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



It stopped for about 20 mins earlier the day. They were sending up every fourth chair empty around noon, it stopped multiple times the one time we rode it. My 7 year old actually said she didnt want to ride it again because she didnt want to get stuck. Other than the triple, attitash skied great today. Bear quad was about a 5 - 10 wait all day, girl managing the line was a superstar, scanned everyone and sent every chair up full.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 8, 2020)

thebigo said:


> My 7 year old actually said she didnt want to ride it again because she didnt want to get stuck.



Smart kid.


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## jg17 (Feb 8, 2020)

Apparently A lift at Jack Frost and both Edelweiss and Little Boulder lifts at Big Boulder are down for the season as well. Sounds like Vail has quite a shopping list for the ex-Peak resorts, and growing...


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## njdiver85 (Feb 9, 2020)

I got stuck on the Sundance triple at Mount Snow earlier in the season shortly after getting on.  40 minutes before they got it moving again.   Mount Snow gave me a full lift ticket voucher for my troubles, which I was not expecting.


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## Edd (Feb 9, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Apparently, the summit triple at Attitash broke down today and they had to rope people off of it. That will help it stay top of mind for Vail.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Where’d you hear this? Seems to be back up today if the snow report is accurate.


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## EPB (Feb 9, 2020)

Edd said:


> Where’d you hear this? Seems to be back up today if the snow report is accurate.


Skitheeast Facebook group

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## EPB (Feb 9, 2020)

Surprised it's back up

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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 9, 2020)

thebigo said:


> ...girl managing the line was a superstar, scanned everyone and sent every chair up full.



Clone her!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 9, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Apparently, the summit triple at Attitash broke down today and they had to rope people off of it. That will help it stay top of mind for Vail.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



You'd hate to wish anyone any trouble or a bad day of skiing, but the more that POS breaks down, the quicker it'll be replaced. They wasted way too much money on it last winter and last summer to still have it failing.


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## EPB (Feb 9, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> You'd hate to wish anyone any trouble or a bad day of skiing, but the more that POS breaks down, the quicker it'll be replaced. They wasted way too much money on it last winter and last summer to still have it failing.


For sure. At least that was pre-Vail money thrown down the toilet. I wonder if they preferred a patchwork fix last summerso they could figure out what to do with it in the long run once they took the keys from Peak.

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## Gforce (Feb 9, 2020)

I will wear my "Trash the Triple" shirt today.

these were the long sleeve t-shirts a frustrated long time pass holder printed up last season and handed them out to us at Ptarmigans lodge pub. haha.

who here has one ?


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## Edd (Feb 9, 2020)

Not on Facebook myself. Asked a friend to check and I asked Attitash on Twitter if the lift was down yesterday. Can’t verify that people were roped down. Honestly curious because, when that happens, a lift is pretty much never open the following day. 


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## EPB (Feb 9, 2020)

Edd said:


> Not on Facebook myself. Asked a friend to check and I asked Attitash on Twitter if the lift was down yesterday. Can’t verify that people were roped down. Honestly curious because, when that happens, a lift is pretty much never open the following day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Here's what I saw.

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## EPB (Feb 9, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Here's what I saw.View attachment 26213
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


Come to think of it, they might have fired it back up after an hour. Post is unclear.

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## Edd (Feb 9, 2020)

A hot drink is sad compensation. That is pathetic, seriously. 


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## machski (Feb 9, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> For sure. At least that was pre-Vail money thrown down the toilet. I wonder if they preferred a patchwork fix last summerso they could figure out what to do with it in the long run once they took the keys from Peak.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


I doubt Vail preferred anything actually.  This was all driven by Peaks this summer.  Vail had no input until the transaction closed which was well after the Summit Triple had been "fixed".

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## EPB (Feb 9, 2020)

machski said:


> I doubt Vail preferred anything actually.  This was all driven by Peaks this summer.  Vail had no input until the transaction closed which was well after the Summit Triple had been "fixed".
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



They were almost certainly in discussions for months before the sale was announced. That's how these mergers typically work. That rescue financing from those pharma guys (Purdue?) to compete Peak's PA-based acquisition was almost certainly with an eye towards a fairly quick sale. Doesn't necessarily mean to Vail, but the writing was on the wall that Peak was shopping itself when you look back at the timeline.

It's a small enough project that I doubt Vail would have deeply cared about. It would have been like fixing a first floor half bath before selling your house. Maybe the new buyer will like it. Maybe they would have preferred another style.

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## SLyardsale (Feb 10, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> They were almost certainly in discussions for months before the sale was announced. That's how these mergers typically work. That rescue financing from those pharma guys (Purdue?) to compete Peak's PA-based acquisition was almost certainly with an eye towards a fairly quick sale. Doesn't necessarily mean to Vail, but the writing was on the wall that Peak was shopping itself when you look back at the timeline.
> 
> It's a small enough project that I doubt Vail would have deeply cared about. It would have been like fixing a first floor half bath before selling your house. Maybe the new buyer will like it. Maybe they would have preferred another style.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yes, that is why it will be interesting to see what VMR does with Attitash going forward.


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## Method9455 (Feb 10, 2020)

jg17 said:


> Apparently A lift at Jack Frost and both Edelweiss and Little Boulder lifts at Big Boulder are down for the season as well. Sounds like Vail has quite a shopping list for the ex-Peak resorts, and growing...



I always defend Peak's management of JFBB & Mount Snow because I liked how they prioritized investing in snowmaking and grooming above all else. But they definitely spent less on lifts than many other operators, Peak's capital investments went to fan guns and supporting infrastructure. 

I've also worked at a company that aiming to get acquired, we cut costs well past was what sustainable to fatten up the margins in order to sell the company. I don't know if Peak was intentionally deferring buying replacement lifts but it wouldn't be very surprising if they were.


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