# How to ski moguls?



## Dmiller27 (Jan 13, 2013)

I have been skiing off and on for years and I just can't get into skiing moguls"bumps".   Any tips or suggestions on how to get into it and better at skiing them?

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## Scruffy (Jan 13, 2013)

Dmiller27 said:


> I have been skiing off and on for years and I just can't get into skiing moguls"bumps". Any tips or suggestions on how to get into it and better at skiing them?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using AlpineZone mobile app



Once you go bumps, you'll never go back.

Take a mogul lesson, then practice, practice, practice. 

Hit every skier formed pile of snow you see while you're skiing around on the groomers.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 13, 2013)

I'm no mogul jedi.. but I enjoy skiing them.

If you want to ski bumps I'd start at making a point to ski a lot of bumps. If you aren't "into them", I might be wrong, but it sounds like you are avoiding them? Ski more bumped up diamonds and double D's.

I think you will need to get generally comfortable with skiing them-- by actually getting a lot of practice on your own-- before you attempt to take it to the next level and become a pro mogul skier or anything.

Once you spend more time on them, then look for low angle bumps... the odd blue square or easier diamond run with small/medium moguls... this is what you can practice hitting the bumps faster and more fluidly on.

And start skiing woods if you don't already... woods are full of bumps but you might find skiing woods and glades to be a lot more fun so this might help you get into bumps a different way =D


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## Edd (Jan 14, 2013)

I'm no bump master either but I ski them a lot. As said, time on the hill is key.  Something to keep in mind is that skiing powdery or slushy bumps is relatively easy compared to bulletproof eastern moguls with deep trenches. So you may start improving for awhile when you catch some good snow days and then feel you suffer a setback when you hit a scratchy day.  I feel like the hard snow moguls need a lighter touch...a greater emphasis on extension and absorption, or something like that.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 14, 2013)

Lots of different styles out there and lots of strong opinions about all of them (I tend to like the SVMM method best). Try different styles though and see what you are more comfortable with.


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## Smellytele (Jan 14, 2013)

I am not a bounce from top to top guy but I try to turn as close to the tops as possible trying to avoid getting too low. also I try to get as close to the inside of the line as I can. Does it always end up that way? No but I try. Getting too deep gets you in trouble.


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## Cheese (Jan 14, 2013)

Dmiller27 said:


> I have been skiing off and on for years and I just can't get into skiing moguls"bumps".   Any tips or suggestions on how to get into it and better at skiing them?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using AlpineZone mobile app



I am a zip line bumper so probably have different thoughts on this subject than others and certainly would have different skills and drills to offer to achieve the zip line level of mogul skiing.  However once you've mastered the skills required to control speed in the zip line, increasing the turn spacing or traversing a mogul trail will be a simple transition.  On the other hand, most bump skiers that ski outside of the zip line would not say that the transition to skiing in the zip line is a simple one.  That's not to say that those skiers ever need to ski the zip line and certainly can have a great day in the moguls while passing back and forth through the zip line.  So, choose your path and make sure you mention to any instructor which path you wish to take.

Saturday at Sugarbush was a great opportunity to see the two different styles performed well.  WWF-VT traverses a mogul trail smoothly conserving energy whereas I'd come down the zip line and stop more frequently.  We both would arrive at the end of a run at the same time much like a long distance runner and sprinter might share a road.


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## Smellytele (Jan 14, 2013)

Cheese said:


> I am a zip line bumper so probably have different thoughts on this subject than others and certainly would have different skills and drills to offer to achieve the zip line level of mogul skiing.  However once you've mastered the skills required to control speed in the zip line, increasing the turn spacing or traversing a mogul trail will be a simple transition.  On the other hand, most bump skiers that ski outside of the zip line would not say that the transition to skiing in the zip line is a simple one.  That's not to say that those skiers ever need to ski the zip line and certainly can have a great day in the moguls while passing back and forth through the zip line.  So, choose your path and make sure you mention to any instructor which path you wish to take.



The zip line is good if they are man made bumps but natural bumps can be a little trickier if not uniform.


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## KevinF (Jan 14, 2013)

Sorry to be a downer in this thread, but I don't think of bump skiing as something that can be solved by simply adding a tip or two to your "bag of tricks", or with a simple adjustment of technique, etc.

Frustration with bump skiing usually boils down to one simple truth:  there is something fundamentally wrong with your skiing, and that needs to be addressed .  As instructors like to say (probably not to your face though):  it's not that you can't ski bumps, it's that you can't ski and the bumps are proving it.

I come to bump skiing via the PSIA "rounder line" method, which basically means mastering short-radius retraction turns on groomers.  Basically, a retraction turn is an absorption of the pressure change that comes as your skis come across the fall line and then extending into the new turn.  It allows you to practice the absorption / extension moves that are critical to bump skiing without having to worry about actual moguls.

Until I mastered short-radius retraction turns, I found bump skiing to be impossible.  Once I figured out retraction turns (and I mean being able to bang out a hundred straight down the width of a groomer), bumps became -- well, I don't want to say "simple", but certainly a whole heckuva lot easier.

As Cheese said above, there are several "schools of thought" regarding bump skiing.  I'm not going to debate the merits of each approach, but this is what worked for me.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 14, 2013)

KevinF said:


> Frustration with bump skiing usually boils down to one simple truth:  there is something fundamentally wrong with your skiing, and that needs to be addressed .  As instructors like to say (probably not to your face though):  it's not that you can't ski bumps, it's that you can't ski and the bumps are proving it.



:beer:


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## Glenn (Jan 14, 2013)

Jump into a section of bumps here and there. If you can find some that are seeded, even better. Seeded tend to be more uniform and you can easily get into a rythym.


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## JimG. (Jan 14, 2013)

Get Dan's book:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...d-You-About-Mogul-Skiing&highlight=dan+dipiro


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## Nick (Jan 14, 2013)

JimG. said:


> Get Dan's book:
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...d-You-About-Mogul-Skiing&highlight=dan+dipiro



^A very good book. I read it on my Kindle last year. At one point, the author had been here posting about it.


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## Cheese (Jan 14, 2013)

KevinF said:


> Frustration with bump skiing usually boils down to one simple truth:  there is something fundamentally wrong with your skiing, and that needs to be addressed .  As instructors like to say (probably not to your face though):  it's not that you can't ski bumps, it's that you can't ski and the bumps are proving it.
> 
> I come to bump skiing via the PSIA "rounder line" method, which basically means mastering short-radius retraction turns on groomers.  Basically, a retraction turn is an absorption of the pressure change that comes as your skis come across the fall line and then extending into the new turn.  It allows you to practice the absorption / extension moves that are critical to bump skiing without having to worry about actual moguls.



Great information here and especially important is the suggestion that skills and drills are best perfected away from the bumps.  The idea of skiing into a mogul field to _give it a try_ or _work on getting better_ will probably not do much more than reinforce bad habits, increase frustration and risk injury.


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## JimG. (Jan 14, 2013)

Nick said:


> ^A very good book. I read it on my Kindle last year. At one point, the author had been here posting about it.



Many years ago...I got to ski a day with Dan at Cannon in 05 before he moved to Waterville.

It is an excellent book.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 14, 2013)

I gotta check out these different "methods" of skiing bumps.

Been working lately on not getting so deep in the trenches and my bumps skiing is getting better. A lot of the time I just watch somebody better than me and try to follow their line.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 14, 2013)

KevinF said:


> Sorry to be a downer in this thread, but I don't think of bump skiing as something that can be solved by simply adding a tip or two to your "bag of tricks", or with a simple adjustment of technique, etc.
> 
> Frustration with bump skiing usually boils down to one simple truth:  there is something fundamentally wrong with your skiing, and that needs to be addressed .  As instructors like to say (probably not to your face though):  it's not that you can't ski bumps, it's that you can't ski and the bumps are proving it.
> 
> ...



It's amazing how one translates to the other. Once I really understood pressure, I finally could grasp how guys could do ziplines and look so out of control yet in control at the exact same time.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 14, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> I gotta check out these different "methods" of skiing bumps.
> 
> Been working lately on not getting so deep in the trenches and my bumps skiing is getting better. A lot of the time I just watch somebody better than me and try to follow their line.



It's not as simple as following someones line when it comes to moguls. You have to understand upper/lower body seperation, flex/extension, pressure, etc. You sound like you are using the ole' slide and bump method. Check out the Sun Valley Mogul Method as an alternative.....not saying one is better but decide for yourself.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 14, 2013)

Slide and bump sounds about right. Thanks for the tip I'll check that out after work.

edit: couldn't wait... watched a few vids. Looks like Sun Valley method is something like how I tackle low angle bumps... except  not as fast as the pros in the videos and I tend to get a little air off the occasional bump just for fun.

The video did help me realize one thing.. I am not doing a good job pulling my skis back under me, and therefore there are occasions where I feel my balance starts to get way back and I no longer have good control or speed control. Gotta work on that. This seems like a big reason why my shallow bump and steep bump technique is drastically different.

Sorry to hijack thread OP hopefully this stuff is useful to many people trying to better themselves in the bumps


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## steamboat1 (Jan 14, 2013)

Two methods I think. You either ski the valleys or bump top to top.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 14, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> Slide and bump sounds about right. Thanks for the tip I'll check that out after work.
> 
> edit: couldn't wait... watched a few vids. Looks like Sun Valley method is something like how I tackle low angle bumps... except  not as fast as the pros in the videos and I tend to get a little air off the occasional bump just for fun.
> 
> ...



Nice analysis of your own skiing. The action you're looking for is not so much "pulling your ski back" but rather pressure. When you coming over the top of the mogul you want to be driving your tips into the next mogul by adding a lot of toe pressure. I really like the gas pedal analogy. You will find that if you really grasp this idea, you will find a huge improvement in your balance and overall aggressiveness in the bumps. Hope this helps

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## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2013)

Easiest thing I can tell you Dana knowing your ski habits and abilities is to ski at least 15-20 days a season and make sure you spend at least 5-6 runs a day in the bumps with someone who skis them well and is willing to work with you.    

You know, someone like me.  Or you can continue to bitch your whole way down and feel like puking at the base and wanting to punch me in the face.  :razz:


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks MadMadWorld I'll give that a shot my next time out!


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## jack97 (Jan 14, 2013)

to the op,

As Glen Plake would say.... you can't buy a mogul turn, you have to earn it. 

That said, it means a certain amount of desire, motivation and time to get better. Maybe taking a vow a celibacy will help as well.


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## jack97 (Jan 14, 2013)

j/k aside... I recommend Dipiro's books as well. The huge thing from that book is that he shows how different techniques are from the PSIA and zipperline (world cup) methods. 

Go to youtube as well and you can see a difference in techniques. Even within the two major camps, you can see how techinques have evolve through time. 

All is not lost if want to get lessons in skiing the zipperline, some poster at this site go to mogul camps in the summer or winter. I now someone who tags along with the freestyle team at Sunapee every w/e. I went up to whaleback and got lessons from Evan Dybvig, former olympian and freestyle coach.


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## goldsbar (Jan 14, 2013)

Buy Dan's book as suggested.  It's short, to the point and really good.

As another poster suggested, not being able to do moguls says more about your overall skiing, not just bumps.  I spent many a testosterone fueled days in my early 20s skiing nothing but bumps and woods (if either were available) with a couple of friends.  None of us could do a zipper.  It was a lot of fun but I never got better until I started learning about skiing technique in general.  Then one day I came upon a short - maybe 25 foot - zipper line and I just did it.  What a feeling!

Read the book, find the right day and the right slopes.  Low angle man made bumps (i.e. not irregular) and soft snow are ideal.  You won't believe that bumps slow you down if you're skiing ice bumps. 

Now, once you realize that every turn, even on the smoothest groomer, has a virtual bump...


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## JimG. (Jan 14, 2013)

jack97 said:


> As Glen Plake would say.... you can't buy a mogul turn, you have to earn it.
> 
> That said, it means a certain amount of desire, motivation and time to get better.



This. Especially the time.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 14, 2013)

I have watched a lot of videos and studied the topic a bit this evening.. since I am partially obsessed with becoming as good a skier (for me) as I can within my lifetime, and moguls are one of several areas which I have targeted for improvement this season.

What I have pulled from this collective information is that there are at least 2 primary ways to ski bumps very well. Zipper and Sun Valley style. These at least seem to be the two ways good bump skiers do it. Perhaps there are variations.. I didn't know these things had names until today.

I do not personally see the value in deciding that one is better than the other and deciding that is what one will focus on-- unless one has already mastered one and has no need for the other. I can ski bumps either way usually halfway decent. That means sometimes really well and sometimes I get hung up on a weird bump and stop to reconsider my technique and chosen path down the slope. Also I need to work on pointing the skis forward, down the slope, and getting and earlier angle/edge on my skis. Sometimes I will find myself in the back seat when my legs start to burn, but this is about to change.

Anyway.. what I am trying to say is that I am by no means the voice of authority on mogul skiing although I consider myself experienced enough to give the following suggestion:

Practice zipperline and Sun Valley style. And on steep double diamond bumps don't think it's wrong to use the top side of moguls to pull a quick almost-hockey stop to cut speed.. and then quickly make the next turn and do the same if necessary-- when you get more confident you won't have to do this on every bump but realistically on a 30-40 degree slope this is what normal (normal as in GOOD) skiers do.

The reason I say practice both is because for one thing, one way may come more naturally. So if you find that out you have an early advantage. Then practice the other way because if one comes much easier than the other, there is something you should improve about your overall skiing fundamentals. When you become reasonably comfortable with both you might find that one style works better in some situations and the other style works better in others.

Like perfect seeded bumps vs. weird gnarly bumps. I think zipper is better in the shallower seeds and Sun Valley is better in the weird stuff. SV gives more flexability for variable bumps and weird terrain.. zipper style has the rhythmic quickness.

But like I said I didn't have a name for these things until now, I just watched a bunch of videos and identified the way I ski at different times in different situations with the way people supposedly representing these different styles are skiing.

I enjoy skiing shallow bumps with a lighter touch, bouncing off them and getting some air here and there. I enjoy skiing really steep bumps linking a bunch of jump turns. But I'm a kind of light guy. Maybe your body build or skiing style or even the way you like to envision yourself skiing is totally different than mine. I wouldn't say there's a right or wrong way to do this. Think about who you are, how you like to ski, what's fun for you and what's holding you back from skiing *your* best... which is probably not the same as somebody else's best. Bumps are not like skiing slalom or GS where its a matter of one kind of perfection.

Also take the advice of the people I am taking advice from over mine.. especially this time of night


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## Edd (Jan 15, 2013)

JimG. said:


> Get Dan's book:
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...d-You-About-Mogul-Skiing&highlight=dan+dipiro



Just downloaded this to my phone for less than $4. Thanks!


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## Cheese (Jan 15, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> Practice zipperline and Sun Valley style. And on steep double diamond bumps don't think it's wrong to use the top side of moguls to pull a quick almost-hockey stop to cut speed.. and then quickly make the next turn and do the same if necessary-- when you get more confident you won't have to do this on every bump but realistically on a 30-40 degree slope this is what normal (normal as in GOOD) skiers do.



I like everything that you posted and perhaps even the above is fine but I might have misread it.  Absolutely stop when things have gone wrong.  I've seen far too many people get tossed into the back seat but rather than stopping and restarting they'll continue on hoping to recover.  During a competition run this may buy some points but when you're learning, stop and restart.

Unless you're in small/medium moguls on a green or blue trail you're never going to want to try to slow by using the peak of a mogul.  Larger moguls on steeper terrain have a backside that's nowhere you want to be.  It'll be near 90* if not beyond so the idea of slamming a hockey stop at the peak then falling down the mini cliff or backside of the mogul will just get you in more trouble.  Stop up there, slide back down the front side and then restart from the valley where you belong.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 15, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> I have watched a lot of videos and studied the topic a bit this evening.. since I am partially obsessed with becoming as good a skier (for me) as I can within my lifetime, and moguls are one of several areas which I have targeted for improvement this season.
> 
> What I have pulled from this collective information is that there are at least 2 primary ways to ski bumps very well. Zipper and Sun Valley style. These at least seem to be the two ways good bump skiers do it. Perhaps there are variations.. I didn't know these things had names until today.
> 
> ...



Not sure about the video you watched but SVMM style is to ski the tops of the moguls and using short radius carved turns to cut speed. That is why pressure is so important in the SVMM style. Its almost impossible to complete such a short radius carved turn without being over the tips of your skis. Your right that terrain can dictate what style you use. I like to use combinations of both because I think they can be useful in different scenarios 

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## bdfreetuna (Jan 15, 2013)

Cheese said:


> I like everything that you posted and perhaps even the above is fine but I might have misread it.  Absolutely stop when things have gone wrong.  I've seen far too many people get tossed into the back seat but rather than stopping and restarting they'll continue on hoping to recover.  During a competition run this may buy some points but when you're learning, stop and restart.
> 
> Unless you're in small/medium moguls on a green or blue trail you're never going to want to try to slow by using the peak of a mogul.  Larger moguls on steeper terrain have a backside that's nowhere you want to be.  It'll be near 90* if not beyond so the idea of slamming a hockey stop at the peak then falling down the mini cliff or backside of the mogul will just get you in more trouble.  Stop up there, slide back down the front side and then restart from the valley where you belong.



Ah, when I said backside I meant the "top side". Front side to me is the steep part... essentially facing in front of you. I have dyslexic tendencies in terms of directions. Sorry for the confusion


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 15, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> Not sure about the video you watched but SVMM style is to ski the tops of the moguls and using short radius carved turns to cut speed. That is why pressure is so important in the SVMM style. Its almost impossible to complete such a short radius carved turn without being over the tips of your skis. Your right that terrain can dictate what style you use. I like to use combinations of both because I think they can be useful in different scenarios
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using AlpineZone mobile app



That's why I prefer SVM / short radius turns over bumps in the variable or weird moguls, as there is more flexibility in terms of the rhythm and size of each turn. It feels and looks more fluid. But then again I can only ski bumps zip line if they are lined up nice and not too huge.

SVM also allows one to get some air here and there by and generally ski in a more playful manner. In a zipper the only way you're gonna get any air is by having lost control of the line.

Fascinating discussion. Makes me want to ski some bumps right now


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 15, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> That's why I prefer SVM / short radius turns over bumps in the variable or weird moguls, as there is more flexibility in terms of the rhythm and size of each turn. It feels and looks more fluid. But then again I can only ski bumps zip line if they are lined up nice and not too huge.
> 
> SVM also allows one to get some air here and there by and generally ski in a more playful manner. In a zipper the only way you're gonna get any air is by having lost control of the line.
> 
> Fascinating discussion. Makes me want to ski some bumps right now



Yes indeed. You are learning young padawan.


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## Smellytele (Jan 15, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> Fascinating discussion. Makes me want to ski some bumps right now



They probably would be icy right now :lol:


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## Cheese (Jan 15, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> Fascinating discussion. Makes me want to ski some bumps right now



They're either firm or harvested for coverage.

This is one of those times when they'll probably never soften up until spring so they might as well just flatten them and reseed.  On the other hand, if they flatten them, customers will complain that there are no moguls.  What's a resort to do ...


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## wa-loaf (Jan 15, 2013)

Cheese said:


> They're either firm or harvested for coverage.
> 
> This is one of those times when they'll probably never soften up until spring so they might as well just flatten them and reseed.  On the other hand, if they flatten them, customers will complain that there are no moguls.  What's a resort to do ...



I wonder if WA will still have them up Thursday. They were pretty nice last week.


Nothing beats a lot of mileage in the bumps no matter what you are doing. I've never studied or read any of the different methods (and haven't read through this thread fully). I ski mostly the troughs and middle of bumps and just use the mogul as speed check. I spent days when I was younger throwing myself down the bump fields (and observing others) at Sugarloaf until things seemed to be working. My biggest obstacle these days is endurance.


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## kingslug (Jan 15, 2013)

My double rocker skis make the bumps..much easier..you can just float right through them...


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 15, 2013)

kingslug said:


> My double rocker skis make the bumps..much easier..you can just float right through them...



Rockered skis definitely are a lot more forgiving when you are too far in the back seat


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## Grassi21 (Jan 15, 2013)

JimG. said:


> Get Dan's book:
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...d-You-About-Mogul-Skiing&highlight=dan+dipiro





Nick said:


> ^A very good book. I read it on my Kindle last year. At one point, the author had been here posting about it.



Agreed.  Great book.  I am still not a good mogul skier since I haven't applied all of the drills outlined in this book.  But the info and explanations in this book help to fill in a lot of blanks.


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## 180 (Jan 15, 2013)

Come to Hunter, We'll teach you how to ski moguls.  We have 42nd Street now top to bottom moguls!


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## madriverjack (Jan 15, 2013)

mogulskiing.net has alot of instructional videos for everyone to check out.


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## KevinF (Jan 15, 2013)

I've always hated the terms "front side" and "back side" for describing bumps, as different people seem to have different ideas as to which side is the "front".  I've never found descriptions that I like though...  uphill side and downhill side are somewhat better.

As I said earlier, I tend to ski bumps in a PSIA-approved manner, which largely means "slow line fast".  Basically, round turns (as opposed to "slam and jam") and using the terrain to control speed (going uphill is slow, going downhill is fast).  As mentioned above, going up and over bumps most certainly can get you facing some "oh s---" moments.  There are times I like staying in the troughs, there are times that I like going up and over.  Depending on the bumps, different lines work better (at least for me).

One of my instructors told me that bump skiing is about 50/50.  Half the time you ski 'em correctly, half the time you ski 'em anyway.  If you're getting more then half your turns "correct", you're going too slow; if you can't get half right, you're going too fast.

As for the "stopping" because you're getting "out of balance" or whatever.  There's "out of balance" and then there's "way, way, out of balance".  I feel that the first scenario is something you need to learn to recover from -- anybody who can claim to not be rocked by a bump at some point is going way too cautiously.  The second scenario -- yeah, pull it to a stop before you hit somebody or something.

As for icy bumps.  This is one of those diabolical snow conditions that just makes you realize how much you still have to learn.  Icy bumps are ski-able, but you need to be oh-so-precise in your line and all your movements.

I haven't skied with any AZers, something that I definitely need to rectify.  I'm a decent bump skier (I can ski the various bump runs at Stowe without too much trouble, but I've sure seen some skiers at Stowe that make me go "damn, he is GOOD"), so do feel free to take anything I say about bump skiing with a grain of salt.


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## kingslug (Jan 15, 2013)

180 said:


> Come to Hunter, We'll teach you how to ski moguls. We have 42nd Street now top to bottom moguls!



Very few could keep up with you..its like when I try to run around with the supercharged 427 corvettes in my slow 92...I see their tail lights once in a while...but 42nd street is one of the best runs to practice, pretty flat and wide enough if you screw up...


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## kingslug (Jan 15, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> Rockered skis definitely are a lot more forgiving when you are too far in the back seat



Or too far in the front..up and over they go...


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## Cheese (Jan 15, 2013)

KevinF said:


> As for the "stopping" because you're getting "out of balance" or whatever.  There's "out of balance" and then there's "way, way, out of balance".  I feel that the first scenario is something you need to learn to recover from -- anybody who can claim to not be rocked by a bump at some point is going way too cautiously.  The second scenario -- yeah, pull it to a stop before you hit somebody or something.



I actually meant way before getting rocked.  Let's face it, we can't bump all day long for many reasons.  Maybe due to changing conditions, crowds or even physical stamina.  So, rather that waste 3/4 of a run practicing bumps in the back seat I'd suggest stopping 1/4 in when you know something has gone wrong to reserve bump time and strength for doing things right.  In fact, if I'm on an empty bump trail teaching someone I will point out lines which run diagonal to the zip line.  Using these lines can break up a bump run into many short sets of bumps and offer more time to think about the good and the bad you've done before making another pass.

Please note that I did restrict this to "empty" as cutting across the zip line of a crowded trail is dangerous.  Even though the downhill skier has the right of way, the uphill skier is coming down one of the most difficult places to control speed and direction on the mountain.  It could be someone experienced like KevinF whom just got "rocked".


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 15, 2013)

When I taught, Dolphin Turns was a great drill I used with the beginner mogul skier to the experienced. If you don't looking a little silly, it's a helpful tool.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 2knees (Jan 15, 2013)

madriverjack said:


> mogulskiing.net has alot of instructional videos for everyone to check out.



Congrats again bro.  Hope you get out this spring at least.  bumps were nice at Mt Snow on friday.  I imagine they are either gone or suck donkey balls by now.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 15, 2013)

Dolphin turns... now there's a classic drill. Good way to practice landing on your tips if you're trying to get any air.

Doing too many of those on flat land hurts the top of my toe. And yes I clip my toenails


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## 180 (Jan 15, 2013)

kingslug said:


> Very few could keep up with you..its like when I try to run around with the supercharged 427 corvettes in my slow 92...I see their tail lights once in a while...but 42nd street is one of the best runs to practice, pretty flat and wide enough if you screw up...



Just ask and we'll slow down for training


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## bobbutts (Jan 15, 2013)

upper body facing down the fall line
your line is where an (imaginary) stream would flow down the moguls
Go out alone or with someone who won't freak out if you stop alot and work on hitting 2-3 bumps just how you want to.
once you can do that with some consistency, try keeping it going.
I find learning how to do linked recoveries like most people who try bumps tires you out and doesn't encourage good technique.
low angle bump runs and small bumps are great for confidence and learning, trying this on outer limits is going to be a bit much for most


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## 2knees (Jan 15, 2013)

in all honesty, you won't learn anything from the internet or Dan DePiro's book regardless of how passionately some may talk it up.  Skiing with 180 would be a huge start, but he is about as good as they get.  Just get out there and ski.


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## Gilligan (Jan 16, 2013)

2knees said:


> in all honesty, you won't learn anything from the internet or Dan DePiro's book regardless of how passionately some may talk it up.  Skiing with 180 would be a huge start, but he is about as good as they get.  Just get out there and ski.



Seriously? Do not try to learn by reading anything, just go out and practice your old, bad technique?

Read DiPiro's book (it is great) then go out and practice, practice, practice - the right way!


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## kingslug (Jan 16, 2013)

I would have to find you guys first...pretty crowded on Sundays...


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## 2knees (Jan 16, 2013)

Gilligan said:


> Seriously? Do not try to learn by reading anything, just go out and practice your old, bad technique?
> 
> !




Skippy!


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## mister moose (Jan 16, 2013)

Bumps are complicated.  The shape on a trail changes as traffic molds and moves them.  What worked at 10am might not work at 2 pm.

Lots of different techniques, and much more has already been said in prior bump threads.  My $.02 to the OP is "how fast can you turn?"  If you can't turn well with good balanced form at 1 per second, you need to work more on the basics first.  Most good bump skiers I see can whip out turns faster than 2 per second when need be.


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## Cheese (Jan 16, 2013)

mister moose said:


> My $.02 to the OP is "how fast can you turn?"  If you can't turn well with good balanced form at 1 per second, you need to work more on the basics first.  Most good bump skiers I see can whip out turns faster than 2 per second when need be.


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## hammer (Jan 16, 2013)

mister moose said:


> Bumps are complicated.  The shape on a trail changes as traffic molds and moves them.  What worked at 10am might not work at 2 pm.
> 
> Lots of different techniques, and much more has already been said in prior bump threads.  My $.02 to the OP is "how fast can you turn?"  If you can't turn well with good balanced form at 1 per second, you need to work more on the basics first.  Most good bump skiers I see can whip out turns faster than 2 per second when need be.


Agree entirely (still working on those basics) but I'd have to admit that some trial by fire doesn't hurt.

I also remember a statement from Greg some time ago that "it's all about the miles"...


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## Abubob (Jan 16, 2013)

mister moose said:


> Bumps are complicated.


That's a dirty lie.



> My $.02 to the OP is "how fast can you turn?"  If you can't turn well with good balanced form at 1 per second, you need to work more on the basics first.
> Most good bump skiers I see can whip out turns faster than 2 per second when need be.


This is true.

That and don't forget to breath.


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## hammer (Feb 22, 2013)

OK, so what is the best drill for working on those short turns?  Every time I see the bumps I feel like I should get in there...and then I do and I flounder after the first few "turns".


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## Cheese (Feb 22, 2013)

The drill for working on short turns is practicing short turns themselves.  Not in the bumps, but outside of the bumps.  Ski straight down the fall line making about 1 turn per 3 seconds.  Keep your weight centered, shoulders across the hill and hands in front of you with your thumbs touching.  Arms should be bent at a 90* angle with your elbows slightly in front of your torso and hands about 1' in front of your chest.  Separate your hands briefly to plant your pole like any other turn but make sure you bring your hands back together afterwards (tap your thumbs together as a reminder to bring them back each time).

Hips should be square across the hill but ankles and knees will turn during each transition.  Essentially you're making a hockey stop then releasing it.  When you release you're absorbing the force from the hockey stop with your knees and therefore unweighting the rear of both ski edges.  Forward pressure should remain on the tips so that they remain planted in the snow even though you are unweighting the tails.  The tips should not move too far horizontally but rather be the pivot point to which the tails shift left or right from.  

Pole plant, hockey stop, tap your thumbs, release, transition, pole plant, hockey stop, tap your thumbs, release, transition... repeat.  Once you've got this down increase the repetition to 1 turn per 2 seconds and then later 1 turn per second.

Another place to practice outside of the moguls is on the edge of the  trail.  Usually there is a noticeable ridge that drops off into the  woods.  Use the top of the ridge as the line and perform quick turns on  either side of it.  Your tips should remain at the top of the ridge  while your tails slide to either side of it.  The pole plant should be  on the top of the ridge (uphill of your tips) and remember to tap your  thumbs together after.  Towards the end of the day the snow here will be  deeper and often even bump up slightly so it's a great place to  practice.

The only modification you should need to make when transitioning to the bumps is in the release.  You will have to release even more as the force of the mogul will require even more absorption to keep the tips weighted while unweighting the tails so that they can pivot from side to side.  If the tips remain the pivot point they will follow straight down the zipline of the moguls as your tails transition between the moguls to the left and right of the line.

Go get 'em!


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 22, 2013)

Cheese said:


> The drill for working on short turns is practicing short turns themselves.  Not in the bumps, but outside of the bumps.  Ski straight down the fall line making about 1 turn per 3 seconds.  Keep your weight centered, shoulders across the hill and hands in front of you with your thumbs touching.  Arms should be bent at a 90* angle with your elbows slightly in front of your torso and hands about 1' in front of your chest.  Separate your hands briefly to plant your pole like any other turn but make sure you bring your hands back together afterwards (tap your thumbs together as a reminder to bring them back each time).
> 
> Hips should be square across the hill but ankles and knees will turn during each transition.  Essentially you're making a hockey stop then releasing it.  When you release you're absorbing the force from the hockey stop with your knees and therefore unweighting the rear of both ski edges.  Forward pressure should remain on the tips so that they remain planted in the snow even though you are unweighting the tails.  The tips should not move too far horizontally but rather be the pivot point to which the tails shift left or right from.
> 
> ...



What do you mean by tapping your thumbs? You 
ean bringing your hands in and tapping your thumbs together? Great post. I don't think there is anything I would add


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## legalskier (Feb 22, 2013)

There are lots of ways to approach moguls tactically. The key for me is speed control. E.g., if I'm doing short radius turns in steep bumps I see each one as an individual turn that comes to (almost) a complete finish. I link each one with the next in a series of slow speed turns. Cheese's description really breaks it down nicely. There are many other ways of approaching them tactically depending on terrain and conditions- it can get creative. Stay forward, don't lean back.

Btw, there are lots of youtube videos out there you can watch. Good luck & enjoy.


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## Cheese (Feb 22, 2013)

MadMadWorld said:


> What do you mean by tapping your thumbs? You
> ean bringing your hands in and tapping your thumbs together? Great post. I don't think there is anything I would add



Yes, it's very important to bring your hands back home (1' away from your chest) and tapping your thumbs together is an easy way to remember.  This prevents letting a hand drag behind, dropping a shoulder, rotating the upper body and often leaning back.

I should also add that learning season is approaching.  Warmer corn snow is both softer and slower which makes skiing moguls about as easy as it can be.


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## Blanton (Feb 22, 2013)

hammer said:


> OK, so what is the best drill for working on those short turns?  Every time I see the bumps I feel like I should get in there...and then I do and I flounder after the first few "turns".



What do you feel specifically keeps you from skiing more of the bumps?  Poor balance, speed control, unable to turn fast enough to stay in the line?


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## hammer (Feb 22, 2013)

Blanton said:


> What do you feel specifically keeps you from skiing more of the bumps?  Poor balance, speed control, unable to turn fast enough to stay in the line?



Yes...but it seems to start in my turn speed, feel like I just can't keep up.


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## PomfretPlunge (Feb 22, 2013)

hammer said:


> OK, so what is the best drill for working on those short turns?  Every time I see the bumps I feel like I should get in there...and then I do and I flounder after the first few "turns".



Here are 2 good vids
http://freestyleski.com/wp/club/canadian-mogul-skiing-video/

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=WgcPxgWRkIs&desktop_uri=/watch?v=WgcPxgWRkIs


Here are some good drills

http://www.canfreestyle.com/wiki/category/skills/mogul/

http://www.canfreestyle.com/wiki/category/skills/turn/

http://mogulskiing.org/mogul-skiing-flat-drills-video/


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## New Daddy (Feb 23, 2013)

PomfretPlunge said:


> Here are 2 good vids
> http://freestyleski.com/wp/club/canadian-mogul-skiing-video/



One thing that I immediately noticed while watching the Canadian video is that their groomed-trail training involves mainly "late-stage" or "tail-end" speed controlling in short radius turns.  What I mean by that is speed controlling seems to occur mainly after crossing the peak of arcs in that video.  

If I'm not mistaken, that is strongly advised against in non-mogul setting. I've heard many ski instructors or even Bode Miller (on free Verizon Fios instructional video) preach "early-stage" or "top-end" speed controlling that aggressively initiates short radius turns before reaching the peak of arcs. In one Bode Miller video, they said "tail-end" speed controlling results in what looks like "repetitive hockey-stop"-like turns. That's exactly what I see happening in the Canadian mogul training video.

I'm not saying the Canadians are doing it wrong. They must be doing it right. So, I'm thinking maybe there is a big difference between groomed-trail short radius turn techniques and mogul techniques.


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## PomfretPlunge (Feb 23, 2013)

Hmm, maybe looking at the flattened images in the videos makes it hard to read what's happening in the reality.  The Canadians' flats turns are super-early, with much-much of the speed control coming in the top half of each turn, exactly as you describe.  The snow starts shooting out from under their skis well before the fall line.  Not sure why you're seeing that as tails/late...


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2013)

Cheese said:


> The drill for working on short turns is practicing short turns themselves.  Not in the bumps, but outside of the bumps.  Ski straight down the fall line making about 1 turn per 3 seconds.  Keep your weight centered, shoulders across the hill and hands in front of you with your thumbs touching.  Arms should be bent at a 90* angle with your elbows slightly in front of your torso and hands about 1' in front of your chest.  Separate your hands briefly to plant your pole like any other turn but make sure you bring your hands back together afterwards (tap your thumbs together as a reminder to bring them back each time).
> 
> Hips should be square across the hill but ankles and knees will turn during each transition.  Essentially you're making a hockey stop then releasing it.  When you release you're absorbing the force from the hockey stop with your knees and therefore unweighting the rear of both ski edges.  Forward pressure should remain on the tips so that they remain planted in the snow even though you are unweighting the tails.  The tips should not move too far horizontally but rather be the pivot point to which the tails shift left or right from.
> 
> ...





New Daddy said:


> One thing that I immediately noticed while watching the Canadian video is that their groomed-trail training involves mainly "late-stage" or "tail-end" speed controlling in short radius turns.  What I mean by that is speed controlling seems to occur mainly after crossing the peak of arcs in that video.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, that is strongly advised against in non-mogul setting. I've heard many ski instructors or even Bode Miller (on free Verizon Fios instructional video) preach "early-stage" or "top-end" speed controlling that aggressively initiates short radius turns before reaching the peak of arcs. In one Bode Miller video, they said "tail-end" speed controlling results in what looks like "repetitive hockey-stop"-like turns. That's exactly what I see happening in the Canadian mogul training video.
> 
> I'm not saying the Canadians are doing it wrong. They must be doing it right. So, I'm thinking maybe there is a big difference between groomed-trail short radius turn techniques and mogul techniques.





PomfretPlunge said:


> Hmm, maybe looking at the flattened images in the videos makes it hard to read what's happening in the reality.  The Canadians' flats turns are super-early, with much-much of the speed control coming in the top half of each turn, exactly as you describe.  The snow starts shooting out from under their skis well before the fall line.  Not sure why you're seeing that as tails/late...



I think you all should team up and co-author a book; "The Thinking Man's Moguls".   :lol:  

It's bizarre to read, having not had a formal lesson since I was in middle school.  As I read it, I think to myself there's no way I'd be able to remember the suggestions you all are making and take them to the hill on my next outing.  At the same time, I'm sure if you all were skiing with me and made the same suggestions live on the slopes, I or anyone would benefit greatly from the instruction.


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## Nick (Feb 24, 2013)

Kinda like golf.


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## PomfretPlunge (Feb 24, 2013)

x2


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## jack97 (Feb 24, 2013)

New Daddy said:


> So, I'm thinking maybe there is a big difference between groomed-trail short radius turn techniques and mogul techniques.



There is a lot of differences in a mogul turn compared to (present day) turns in alpine racing. I would even add in the way turns are presently taught by ski instuctors. The biggest, is that half of the turn is use to make a quick short turn. 

Here's a vid of Finnish mogul skier, Janne Lahtela


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## jack97 (Feb 24, 2013)

*more vis*

Berger rocking it old school.... they don't teach this sh!t anymore!


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## jack97 (Feb 24, 2013)

*last vid*



New Daddy said:


> If I'm not mistaken, that is strongly advised against in non-mogul setting. I've heard many ski instructors or even Bode Miller (on free Verizon Fios instructional video) preach "early-stage" or "top-end" speed controlling that aggressively initiates short radius turns before reaching the peak of arcs. In one Bode Miller video, they said "tail-end" speed controlling results in what looks like "repetitive hockey-stop"-like turns. That's exactly what I see happening in the Canadian mogul training video.




Bode Miller is an awesome alpine racing and very technically sound. However, I would not think of him as the definitive go to guy when it comes to mogul skiing. Start of 6:51, "Trouble Situations".....wtf, I seek out stuff like this.


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## Blanton (Feb 24, 2013)

PomfretPlunge said:


> Here are 2 good vids
> http://freestyleski.com/wp/club/canadian-mogul-skiing-video/
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=WgcPxgWRkIs&desktop_uri=/watch?v=WgcPxgWRkIs
> ...



Brennan posted some good videos, however I wouldn't dig too deep into the drills on the Canadian site.  The reason I say this is that most people will do them incorrectly and just reinforce bad habits or waste time on the hill.  Without a "coach" on hand it is tough to get much of anything out of the more complex ones  That being said I would look at the basic body position tutorial and the section pertaining to flats about 3 minutes in on the first one.  Without a strong body position you are going to struggle with progressing your turns.

One of the biggest things you can do to work on improving  in and out of the bumps is to ditch your poles and loosen up your boots.  You will find that doing both of these things makes it nearly impossible to ski the way that you are comfortable/ accustomed to.  Getting rid of these crutches will quickly require you to get in the right position and work on nice calm motions.  10/10 you will find that it involves pulling your feet way behind you, bending your knees/ ankles, and holding your upper body in an athletic/ non tense fashion.  Start with a comfortable medium/ short radius turn and progressively tighten it up as you feel you are improving.  Working this in the bumps will reinforce patient feet and excellent ski snow contact.

I like doing this because it's something you can do on your own and really improve upon in a matter of a couple runs.  It's also nice because you don't have to ask your buddy if it looks better or if you did it right.


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## PomfretPlunge (Feb 24, 2013)

Yes indeedy!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2013)

One thing I don't believe has been mentioned is that a great way to improve mogul skiing is to trail run in the summer time.  Find trails with moderate pitch and run down them.  Whenever there's a decent drop of a couple of feet, jump down the drop and land balanced on both feet with your feet angled 45 degrees across the fall line of the hill.  This really helps feel the components of balance, absorption and knee/hip angulation that you experience while on snow.  Try stringing several of these jump "turns" together.

You're unlikely to find natural terrain with the same features, but here's a good video of Johnny Mosely "skiing" during the summer months.


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## PomfretPlunge (Feb 24, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> One thing I don't believe has been mentioned is that a great way to improve mogul skiing is to trail run in the summer time.  Find trails with moderate pitch and run down them.  Whenever there's a decent drop of a couple of feet, jump down the drop and land balanced on both feet with your feet angled 45 degrees across the fall line of the hill.  This really helps feel the components of balance, absorption and knee/hip angulation that you experience while on snow.  Try stringing several of these jump "turns" together.



I wrote 2knees a horribly long-winded e-mail about trail running for mogul practice a coupla years ago and he hasn't spoken to me since!     

That was after our dayz up at Sugarbush.  We should get the gang together again this April at SB or K... or Sundown?  Howz bumpz there these dayz?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2013)

never skied Sundown.  :lol:

I will definitely be skiing both Sugarbush and Killington this spring.


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## legalskier (Feb 24, 2013)

Blanton said:


> One of the biggest things you can do to work on improving in and out of the bumps is to ditch your poles and loosen up your boots.



Interesting- I'm going to give this a try next time out.



Blanton said:


> 10/10 you will find that it involves pulling your feet way behind you,



But what do you mean by this?


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## jack97 (Feb 24, 2013)

PomfretPlunge said:


> We should get the gang together again this April at SB or K... or Sundown? Howz bumpz there these dayz?



Sundown is holding a mogul contest in the middle of march, $1000 cash prize..... that is some serious beer money!

I figure they would seed gunbarrel soon, they also place kickers in and they leave it open for general use.


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## Blanton (Feb 24, 2013)

legalskier said:


> Interesting- I'm going to give this a try next time out.
> 
> 
> 
> But what do you mean by this?



Nothing too fancy.  Just another way to say backseat skiing is always encountered to some degree.  Lift your hips, get forward... to me pulling your feet back is the easiest to remember and most intuitive when absorption comes into play.  Throughout the course of a turn you want your head as close to over the heel piece of your binding as possible (perpendicular to slope).  Too far ahead means you are hinging at the waist, too far back means you are riding your tails and lacking ski snow contact.

Hope that helps.


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## powhunter (Feb 25, 2013)

PomfretPlunge said:


> I wrote 2knees a horribly long-winded e-mail about trail running for mogul practice a coupla years ago and he hasn't spoken to me since!
> 
> That was after our dayz up at Sugarbush. We should get the gang together again this April at SB or K... or Sundown? Howz bumpz there these dayz?




Now that racing is almost over, a good portion of Gunbarrel has been seeded. Should be T2B soon.   A bunch of us took the week of the bump comp off 11-16th snd will be hitting it everyday. 


Steveo


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## bvibert (Feb 25, 2013)

powhunter said:


> Now that racing is almost over, a good portion of Gunbarrel has been seeded. Should be T2B soon.   A bunch of us took the week of the bump comp off 11-16th snd will be hitting it everyday.
> 
> 
> Steveo



Hopefully Gunny should be T2B sometime around a week from now.  The last racing commitment is next Sunday, so as long as there's no weather events to delay things we should be good.


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## legalskier (Feb 25, 2013)

Blanton said:


> Nothing too fancy.  Just another way to say backseat skiing is always encountered to some degree.  Lift your hips, get forward... to me pulling your feet back is the easiest to remember and most intuitive when absorption comes into play.  Throughout the course of a turn you want your head as close to over the heel piece of your binding as possible (perpendicular to slope).  Too far ahead means you are hinging at the waist, too far back means you are riding your tails and lacking ski snow contact.
> 
> Hope that helps.



It does, thanks.


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