# New majority owner of Peak Resorts



## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2019)

First I'm reading of this:

https://vtdigger.org/2019/04/18/fam...&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=SocialWarfare

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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2019)

Wonder how many sales of Oxycodone it will take to fund a new lift at Attitash.

I'd also suggest that public knowledge of this will result in the alienation of a not so insignificant amount of people.  I certainly don't like that my money is going to the Sackler family.  Those people are pure evil. 

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## JimG. (Apr 20, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder how many sales of Oxycodone it will take to fund a new lift at Attitash.
> 
> I'd also suggest that public knowledge of this will result in the alienation of a not so insignificant amount of people.  I certainly don't like that my money is going to the Sackler family.  Those people are pure evil.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I was just going to say this.

I minimized my visits to Peaks resorts this winter to get the most out of my season passes to K and Belleayre/Gore/Whiteface. I only skied Peaks to socialize with old friends.

But knowing the Sacklers own those places means the cord is cut for me I won't spend a dime at those places. Those are some horrible and evil people.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2019)

My feelings are that though I have a moral conflict spending money that will benefit the Sacklers, any boycott by me would harm the employees of Wildcat more than that evil family. 

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## JimG. (Apr 20, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> My feelings are that though I have a moral conflict spending money that will benefit the Sacklers, any boycott by me would harm the employees of Wildcat more than that evil family.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



You also have the benefit of calling Wildcat your home which is far and away without any doubt the best ski area Peaks operates. I would be hard pressed to boycott them under those circumstances. 

But living 5.5 hours from Wildcat it's much easier for me I won't miss out on anything.


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## Smellytele (Apr 20, 2019)

fbgm has been stating this for years on here. So now they own a few more percentage points no real difference 


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## FBGM (Apr 21, 2019)

*Free Oxy to come to a Peak Resorts near you*

https://vtdigger.org/2019/04/18/fam...il&utm_term=0_b5e56b36a4-0e5764823f-286700865

More funny money into an already upside down company. 

I think this move is more to target the oxy and heroine epidemic in the Southern VT area. Now all the VT backwoods slime pushin H can see their dealers money at hard work in their backyard.


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## FBGM (Apr 21, 2019)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mc...ycodone-pills-arrests-20130820-story,amp.html

I mean these guys know all about Oxy already. Easy sell


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## Edd (Apr 21, 2019)

New majority owner of Peak Resorts
http://www.forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=141773


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## cdskier (Apr 21, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> fbgm has been stating this for years on here. So now they own a few more percentage points no real difference



I tend to agree. Boycotting a resort over who purchased their public stocks seems a bit extreme. You're causing far more damage to the local communities and people that work at these resorts than you are to people that may not even realize they have a controlling interest in the company (let's be honest...they probably have some finance hedge fund manager making these decisions and have no idea what they own as long as they see profits).


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## FBGM (Apr 21, 2019)

Edd said:


> New majority owner of Peak Resorts
> http://www.forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=141773
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I can’t even find that thread without the link. That twat waffle of a dude who runs the site I think blocked me from seeing it or some shit. Probably was worried I’d expand everyone’s knowledge of real facts.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 21, 2019)

I was going to say that this flew under the radar.  I for one would be concerned about the stability of their ownership. They currently are in the crosshairs of multiple upon multiple lawsuits for alleged egregious behavior. That doesn’t sound like the definition of financial stability to me.


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## dlague (Apr 21, 2019)

You have no idea of how many things you buy / use that are not socially aligned with your own convictions.  For example they have owned shares as far back as 2015 but now it is not acceptable.  That is because you know. It is easier when you do not know.

What about ski areas that claim that they are envirinmentally sustainable but require fossil fuels to people there.

Just sayin!

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## icecoast1 (Apr 21, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> fbgm has been stating this for years on here. So now they own a few more percentage points no real difference
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




except they owned a small share of the company before, they now own the majority controlling share, a little different


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## Edd (Apr 21, 2019)

dlague said:


> What about ski areas that claim that they are envirinmentally sustainable but require fossil fuels to people there.
> 
> Just sayin!



Not a reason to not give a shit. Just sayin!


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## cdskier (Apr 21, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> except they owned a small share of the company before, they now own the majority controlling share, a little different



They owned 40% previously. Not exactly what I consider a "small" share. It may not have been a majority controlling share, but it was still substantial.


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## Pez (Apr 21, 2019)

I will still continue to hit up Snow and buy lunch somewhere and buy beer to take home from somewhere.  Better to keep the local economy flowing.  Peak is going to probably crash and burn at some point in the next five years anyway.  


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## JimG. (Apr 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I was going to say that this flew under the radar.  I for one would be concerned about the stability of their ownership. They currently are in the crosshairs of multiple upon multiple lawsuits for alleged egregious behavior. That doesn’t sound like the definition of financial stability to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



This exactly.

Inflicting death for profit does not sell well.


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## JimG. (Apr 21, 2019)

Edd said:


> Not a reason to not give a shit. Just sayin!



Thanks Edd.


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## prsboogie (Apr 22, 2019)

I wonder at what point PEOPLE will start taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others for their downfalls.   Back in the late 70s early 80s there was a big push in medicine for pain control, after many years criticism from the public that their pain was poorly controlled after surgeries. To the point that there was a push to include pain in all vital sign rounds, "pain is the fifth vital" was the mantra in nursing and medical schools. 

The big bad rich people created a medicine that is effective in treating pain. Pain which most should never have complained about in the first place but as a society we are soft, so the Sackler's seized the opportunity.

Was the drug abused, yes. Was it misrepresented, probably. Is it their fault people started taking their pills three-four times more frequently and double and triple the prescribed doses, absolutely not. Nowhere on the drug information sheets does it say it is acceptable to chew them (because it gets you high instead of slow release as intended), nowhere does it say crush an snort as an acceptable route of administration (because it gets you high instead of treating pain as intended).  

We as a society need to stop passing the buck and take responsibility for our own actions. I couldn't care who owns what as long as they keep the lights on. I have way more important shit to worry about - mainly keeping my kids safe and healthy and teaching them to stay away from all the bad shit that goes on in this world.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> I wonder at what point PEOPLE will start taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others for their downfalls.   Back in the late 70s early 80s there was a big push in medicine for pain control, after many years criticism from the public that their pain was poorly controlled after surgeries. To the point that there was a push to include pain in all vital sign rounds, "pain is the fifth vital" was the mantra in nursing and medical schools.
> 
> The big bad rich people created a medicine that is effective in treating pain. Pain which most should never have complained about in the first place but as a society we are soft, so the Sackler's seized the opportunity.
> 
> ...



I used to have the same opinion, until I watched a couple PBS/Frontline Episodes on the epidemic and then I did a 180-degree shift.  These meds are HIGHLY addictive--more so than heroin.  And the manufacturers knew it and downplayed it.  

One:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss8SvCrIHkE

Two:

http://www.pbs.org/wned/opioid-epidemic/watch/

So yes, you're right.  Folks should be held accountable.  In this case, the people who manufactured, marketed, and profitted from the drugs.


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## JimG. (Apr 22, 2019)

Not only did the manufacturers know how addictive these drugs are, they incentified doctors to prescribe ever increasing dosages. And to prescribe them inappropriately too. Like giving post partum moms derivatives of fentanyl that were developed for terminal cancer patients. Guess what? Many of those moms got addicted and many died.

I understand folks want to look the other way when it affects an activity they enjoy, but I am frankly shocked that anyone believes it is no big deal or doesn't care one way or the other. And while I am a strong proponent of personal responsibility, people are trained from an early age to trust their doctor and take meds when prescribed. This is a massive breach of that trust.

I hope the Sacklers, any other opioid manufacturer, the distribution companies, and the bad doctors who felt $ matters more than life all get the book thrown at them and rot in jail forever. And while I never in the past thought to care about or research the business dealings of who owns my ski area, I will never make that mistake again.

My own personal shame that I did not think to do this before giving any of my money to Peaks is almost unbearable and I now feel I owe FBGM an apology for ranking on some of his posts. He was right!


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

I need to process this..   It doesn't make me happy.. Hunter went from a family business to this..   
I don't want his money near/in my town - where people have died from this crisis.

I just need to think this through...


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## njdiver85 (Apr 23, 2019)

FBGM said:


> That twat waffle of a dude who runs the site I think blocked me from seeing it or some shit.



:lol:


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## njdiver85 (Apr 23, 2019)

In all seriousness, it's more surprising the Peak would yield majority ownership to any investor, and for what - to acquire SnowTime??


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## JimG. (Apr 23, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I need to process this..   It doesn't make me happy.. Hunter went from a family business to this..
> I don't want his money near/in my town - where people have died from this crisis.
> 
> I just need to think this through...



As you process ignore my over the top reaction.

This topic sets me off, I have a family member who was just weaned off of opioids. She was lucky.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

JimG. said:


> As you process ignore my over the top reaction.
> 
> This topic sets me off, I have a family member who was just weaned off of opioids. She was lucky.



I helped 2 close friends get off prescribed opiates.. It wasn't easy..


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## snoseek (Apr 23, 2019)

A one year mass boycott would probably fold peak.....


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## JimG. (Apr 23, 2019)

snoseek said:


> A one year mass boycott would probably fold peak.....



Not sure I hold anything against Peaks so that would be inappropriate to me. Yes they took bad $ but it's tough for me to blame them. I'm sure I've made money from investments in pharma. Do the Sacklers manage day to day ops at Peaks resorts? doubtful.

Peaks runs ski areas...although the fact that a lift ops had to be revived from an overdose is pretty chilling.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

My friends *DID* take *personal responsibility* by calling me for help to assist them with getting off these legally prescribed pain killers..


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Peaks runs ski areas...although the fact that a lift ops had to be revived from an overdose is pretty chilling.



Is that a fact?


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## HowieT2 (Apr 23, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> I wonder at what point PEOPLE will start taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others for their downfalls.   Back in the late 70s early 80s there was a big push in medicine for pain control, after many years criticism from the public that their pain was poorly controlled after surgeries. To the point that there was a push to include pain in all vital sign rounds, "pain is the fifth vital" was the mantra in nursing and medical schools.
> 
> The big bad rich people created a medicine that is effective in treating pain. Pain which most should never have complained about in the first place but as a society we are soft, so the Sackler's seized the opportunity.
> 
> ...



That certainly is the sacklers side of the story.
Do you know how many americans died from opioids last year alone?  I believe its about 47,000.  dead. In one year.  Thats a lot of "irresponsible" people.  Its quite the coincidence that this epidemic exploded after purdue flooded the country with oxy for everything.  and the evidence is pretty clear that they were well aware of how addictive it was and furthermore that it was being abused on a massive scale.  Its kind of ironic that you preach about responsibility while denying any culpability on the part of the drug dealers who made billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.


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## skiur (Apr 23, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> That certainly is the sacklers side of the story.
> Do you know how many americans died from opioids last year alone?  I believe its about 47,000.  dead. In one year.  Thats a lot of "irresponsible" people.  Its quite the coincidence that this epidemic exploded after purdue flooded the country with oxy for everything.  and the evidence is pretty clear that they were well aware of how addictive it was and furthermore that it was being abused on a massive scale.  Its kind of ironic that you preach about responsibility while denying any culpability on the part of the drug dealers who made billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.



Alcohol kills many more people each year than opioids, but every ski area has bars plus many events sponsored by beer.  How come nobody is up in arms over that?  Budweiser  makes billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.  But beer is socially acceptable while heroine is not so nobody is upset......just sayin


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

skiur said:


> Alcohol kills many more people each year than opioids, but every ski area has bars plus many events sponsored by beer.  How come nobody is up in arms over that?  Budweiser  makes billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.  But beer is socially acceptable while heroine is not so nobody is upset......just sayin



When's the last time somebody OD'd violently on alcohol?


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## jaytrem (Apr 23, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> When's the last time somebody OD'd violently on alcohol?



I guess technically any DUI death could be considered an OD.  Wouldn't be dead if you didn't over use alcohol.  1 death every 50 min in the US.  Somehow alcohol gets a pass though.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

I feel ya - but I think both drugs are different.  Opiates are more immediately addictive and dangerous.


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## skiur (Apr 23, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I feel ya - but I think both drugs are different.  Opiates are more immediately addictive and dangerous.



Alcohol can be extremely addictive to some people and has destroyed many families, dont get me wrong, I love to drink, but lets call a spade a spade.  I know plenty of people who have drank themselves to death and have ruined there lives and the lives of their families.  To someone with an addictive personality alcohol can be just as addictive as opioids.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

skiur said:


> Alcohol can be extremely addictive to some people and has destroyed many families, dont get me wrong, I love to drink, but lets call a spade a spade.  I know plenty of people who have drank themselves to death and have ruined there lives and the lives of their families.  To someone with an addictive personality alcohol can be just as addictive as opioids.



All very true. 
But opioids can/will kill or have you addicted on the first dose..
I love whiskey - but I'd never touch opioids..  Because I've seen how fast people get fucked up on it.  And helped people get undone from it..  And have lost a few people because of it..  Way more than alcohol..   Which I know is dangerous..

Don't EVER do them... ever..  unless there's no other choice for pain relief..


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## Edd (Apr 23, 2019)

skiur said:


> Alcohol kills many more people each year than opioids, but every ski area has bars plus many events sponsored by beer.  How come nobody is up in arms over that?  Budweiser  makes billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.  But beer is socially acceptable while heroine is not so nobody is upset......just sayin



Are alcohol and opioids comparable when we’re discussing addiction? Both are addictive, but opioids are likely in a different category. Also, alcohol is 1000x more available. People take up arms against the booze but alcohol isn’t used for medical reasons. It’s apples and oranges.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

I like whiskey...


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## x10003q (Apr 23, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> I wonder at what point PEOPLE will start taking responsibility for their own actions instead of blaming others for their downfalls.   Back in the late 70s early 80s there was a big push in medicine for pain control, after many years criticism from the public that their pain was poorly controlled after surgeries. To the point that there was a push to include pain in all vital sign rounds, "pain is the fifth vital" was the mantra in nursing and medical schools.
> 
> The big bad rich people created a medicine that is effective in treating pain. Pain which most should never have complained about in the first place but as a society we are soft, so the Sackler's seized the opportunity.
> 
> ...



Nope.
Purdue Pharma lied about Oxycontin from the moment they started selling it. They have admitted they lied and been convicted. They branded their version of heroin and then told Drs that it was not addicting.


Here is one of the first convictions from 2007:
http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/purdue_pharma_admits_lies_over_oxycontin_painkiller_risks_989853


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## thetrailboss (Apr 23, 2019)

x10003q said:


> Nope.
> Purdue Pharma lied about Oxycontin from the moment they started selling it. They have admitted they lied and been convicted. They branded their version of heroin and then told Drs that it was not addicting.
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if pain meds are our generation's "big tobacco" with revelations coming about misleading information and tactics by manufacturers resulting in massive litigation and changes.


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## JimG. (Apr 23, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Is that a fact?



Admittedly I did not see it myself but heard about it from several sources.


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## JimG. (Apr 23, 2019)

skiur said:


> Alcohol kills many more people each year than opioids, but every ski area has bars plus many events sponsored by beer.  How come nobody is up in arms over that?  Budweiser  makes billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.  But beer is socially acceptable while heroine is not so nobody is upset......just sayin



This.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 23, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Admittedly I did not see it myself but heard about it from several sources.



I have yet to hear about it from a reliable source.
Also - never hit the press and my friend who's a cop in town didn't hear..

It's a bad rumour to spread imho...


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## skiur (Apr 23, 2019)

Edd said:


> Are alcohol and opioids comparable when we’re discussing addiction? Both are addictive, but opioids are likely in a different category. Also, alcohol is 1000x more available. People take up arms against the booze but alcohol isn’t used for medical reasons. It’s apples and oranges.



People dont drink to feel better? Alcohol has fucked up many more lives than opioids have, both extremely addictive and both send billions to some corrupt corporation that knows its product is killing millions.  Seems like apples to apples to me. And we are not discussing addiction, we are discussing the Sackler family buying a majority of Peaks


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## 180 (Apr 23, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I have yet to hear about it from a reliable source.
> Also - never hit the press and my friend who's a cop in town didn't hear..
> 
> It's a bad rumour to spread imho...[/QUOTE
> ...


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if pain meds are our generation's "big tobacco" with revelations coming about misleading information and tactics by manufacturers resulting in massive litigation and changes.



Not really, there were some bad actors, but much of it is overblown from the institutional level.

  Also, with _"big tobacco"_ everyone is in it together, whereas with these pills, all pharmaceutical companies are being maligned even though very few of them actually even sell the products, which just goes to demonstrate how little the people doing most of the maligning even know about the issue.


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## Edd (Apr 23, 2019)

skiur said:


> People dont drink to feel better? Alcohol has fucked up many more lives than opioids have, both extremely addictive and both send billions to some corrupt corporation that knows its product is killing millions.  Seems like apples to apples to me. And we are not discussing addiction, we are discussing the Sackler family buying a majority of Peaks



Oh, I could’ve sworn you compared beer vs. heroine in your post (you did). I agree, alcohol is bad, but doctors don’t prescribe alcohol. They prescribe opioids, similar to heroin.


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## Smellytele (Apr 23, 2019)

I have been avoiding this as this is a horrible subject and people are going off on fucked up tangents. 
Opioids have their place in pain management but their marketing and prescribing has been corrupted. Yes some people abuse them as well but some took them as prescribed and became addicted. More alternatives need to be found to opioids for pain management.
An usher in my wedding was prescribed oxy and became addicted. When he could no long get a prescription he began using heroin at age 40 and over dosed a few months later. Sad


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## drjeff (Apr 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not really, there were some bad actors, but much of it is overblown from the institutional level.
> 
> Also, with _"big tobacco"_ everyone is in it together, whereas with these pills, all pharmaceutical companies are being maligned even though very few of them actually even sell the products, which just goes to demonstrate how little the people doing most of the maligning even know about the issue.


Pretty sure that some of the anti vaccine crowd will make the massive leap to further equate pharmaceutical companies "evil" and associate the "poison" of opiods with vaccines.....

Additionally, as someone who has had a DEA license for over 20 years now, I can attest to how much "tougher" it is to actually prescribe any narcotic medication these days than it used to be. And let me get it out in the open that not once have I ever prescribed Oxycontin or any similar what I would classify as a STRONG narcotic pain medication ever. 

Frankly, not just the drug companies and their reps who pushed drugs such as Oxycontin, but the few bad Doctors who wrote prescriptions for hundreds, if not thousands of tablets per prescriptions, but also the pharmacists who filled those orders without questioning the large number to be dispensed, and at times the frequency of refill prescriptions share some blame. Heck, I've had pharmacists call me and ask if I knew that a patient I say prescribed 10 tablets of Tylenol with Codeine, had just had a prescription from another doctor for a much stronger narcotic in a larger quantity, a few days before. I also get 1 or 2 calls a year from a pharmacist about certain drugs they think I'm prescribing (most of that comes from the fact that about 30 miles from my office, there is an OB/GYN with my exact name and we apparently have a handful of mutual patients, and I get a call asking if I really was prescribing birth control pills!!)

The tracking system that the DEA has in place Nationwide for going on the last almost 10yrs has a Nationwide essentially real time connects both the prescriber via their DEA number, and the patient. The vast majority of any strength of narcotic pain medications now require either an actual written copy of the prescription a encrypted prescriber identity verified digital direct to the pharmacy prescription with initial prescription quantities at a maximum of 48hrs duration.

It now takes basically an active desire to supercede the safety systems in place for large dose prescriptions such as Oxycontin to be dispensed through a pharmacy without major warning flags going up. Not to say that there aren't some "bad apples" working together that aren't still doing this, but the reality is through legal pathways, that is a very small number these days.

Our society for many is seemingly fixated on the ultra quick fix, "there has to be a pill for that" immediate gratification culture to avoid the reality that something's in life aren't always easy or quick or even fair at times, and many people either can't (or don't) want to handle that fact of life or were ever taught the life skills to handle that...

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## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2019)

Timely news article.

Former Drug distribution executives face life in prison.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...n-company-first-face-criminal-charges-n997571

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## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Frankly, not just the drug companies and their reps who pushed drugs such as Oxycontin, but* the few bad Doctors who wrote prescriptions for hundreds, if not thousands of tablets per prescriptions*, but also the pharmacists who filled those orders without questioning the large number to be dispensed, and at times the frequency of refill prescriptions share some blame.



I was in a pre-med rotation at an ER & this patient came in with back pain & wanted meds.  The doc was going to prescribe X medication, and the patient said, _"no, I've had that before, and it doesnt work well, I'd like Y"_, the dude even knew the DOSE he wanted!  Even as a 20 year old kid it was obvious to me this guy was a seeker, so I was shocked when the doc actually wrote the script.  He could see I was bothered by this (though I didn't say anything), so he motioned be aside behind a curtain & said (paraphrasing), "_Look, I know what you're thinking, so here's the deal.  If I dont write that Rx this is what's going to happen, that guy leaves here after wasting our time and goes to (nearly hospital) and wastes their time, and if he doesnt get the meds there then he's going to go to (another nearby hospital) and waste their time, and this will continue today until someone writes that script.  So I might as well save some doctors and nurses some time to see legitimate patients and give that junky what he wants."_  The fact I remember this clear as day years later shows it disturbed me.



drjeff said:


> *It now takes basically an active desire to supercede the safety systems in place for large dose prescriptions such as Oxycontin to be dispensed *through a pharmacy without major warning flags going up. Not to say that there aren't some "bad apples" working together that aren't still doing this, but* the reality is through legal pathways, that is a very small number these days.*



Yup, but no matter, the people need a demon and that demon is the "pharmaceutical companies", even though that makes very little logical sense as I previously noted.  Some of that is political too, create an "enemy" and you create a useful political issue.


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## Ol Dirty Noodle (Apr 24, 2019)

The issue people have is they’ve been found like big tobacco to intentionally alter chemical compounds to make products more addictive while also pedaling the rehab programs and detox drugs.  
If it came out Anheuser Busch was trying to make their beers more addictive and buying up rehab facilities people would be calling them monsters too.
And none of it is done for the betterment of the people it’s done for the Board’s profits.  Ever seen a new drug rollout video? Guy walks on stage and literally says who is ready to get filthy rich selling this drug? And all the reps in the crowd go nuts. 
Is there a societal problem? Yes.  But big pharm has done everything to capitalize on it and that is disgusting and utterly irresponsible.


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## skiur (Apr 24, 2019)

Edd said:


> Oh, I could’ve sworn you compared beer vs. heroine in your post (you did). I agree, alcohol is bad, but doctors don’t prescribe alcohol. They prescribe opioids, similar to heroin.



I was discussing the hypocrisy of why people are so crazy and want to boycott peaks for having an opioid producing family as a major shareholder while they dont mind alcohol money all over the mountain when alcohol has killed many more people, fucked up many more lives and there are many more drunks than junkies.  You decided I was discussing something else.  I very much enjoy alcohol and personally dont care about ski areas getting money from alcohol or do I want to boycott peaks because of the sackler family being a major stock holder which they have been for some time now.....to each their own.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 24, 2019)

Ol Dirty Noodle said:


> But big pharm has done everything to capitalize on it and that is disgusting and utterly irresponsible.



While I agree that many Pharma companies are guilty of this, it is not all of them.  I have worked in Biotech/Pharma for over 15 years, and my company makes products that target rare diseases, and frequently supplies patients with life saving/prolonging medications at no cost.


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## Ol Dirty Noodle (Apr 24, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> While I agree that many Pharma companies are guilty of this, it is not all of them.  I have worked in Biotech/Pharma for over 15 years, and my company makes products that target rare diseases, and frequently supplies patients with life saving/prolonging medications at no cost.



Right and what funds the research on said rare treatments? Profits from widely sold PKs, I get it it’s an unfortunate reality/business model with built in zero-accountability


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## cdskier (Apr 24, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> While I agree that many Pharma companies are guilty of this, it is not all of them.  I have worked in Biotech/Pharma for over 15 years, and my company makes products that target rare diseases, and frequently supplies patients with life saving/prolonging medications at no cost.



Couldn't agree more. I also have worked in Pharma for 15 years and my company is the same way (we also have rare diseases as a major focus). Most people I know where I work are genuinely concerned with helping people. Lumping all Pharma together because a couple people were greedy or not patient-focused is ridiculous.


----------



## prsboogie (Apr 24, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> That certainly is the sacklers side of the story.
> Do you know how many americans died from opioids last year alone?  I believe its about 47,000.  dead. In one year.  Thats a lot of "irresponsible" people.  Its quite the coincidence that this epidemic exploded after purdue flooded the country with oxy for everything.  and the evidence is pretty clear that they were well aware of how addictive it was and furthermore that it was being abused on a massive scale.  Its kind of ironic that you preach about responsibility while denying any culpability on the part of the drug dealers who made billions of dollars selling a product which has resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands of americans.


I'm not denying culpability, what I am saying and see on a daily basis is people who have actively chosen to abuse medications that were either never prescribed to them or if they were, were taken in a manner that they were not prescribed. 

I work in a busy midsized hospital's ER in SE Mass and we average 2 ODs every day (Monday-Friday) I'm here. At least 2-3 deaths per week out of those. So no one needs to tell me the horrors of opiate addiction. The ones I get to talk to didn't start using heroin because the had a surgery and was prescribed oxys for pain control. The lionshare illegally obtained them to help them escape their demons. 

You want to stop most issues in this country, fix the mental health issues that are rampant. Also people need to stop thinking there is magical fixes for everything, there is no one pill fixes all out there. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jaytrem (Apr 24, 2019)

This old story becomes a bit more interesting...

https://www.tnonline.com/2013/aug/21/police-make-four-arrests-after-lengthy-drug-probe


----------



## FBGM (Apr 24, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> This old story becomes a bit more interesting...
> 
> https://www.tnonline.com/2013/aug/21/police-make-four-arrests-after-lengthy-drug-probe



Quoting so more people can see this!

There is your manager of operations folks. Your day ticket money now goes to the maker of his drugs and his drug habit. Congrats!


----------



## prsboogie (Apr 24, 2019)

JimG. said:


> As you process ignore my over the top reaction.
> 
> This topic sets me off, I have a family member who was just weaned off of opioids. She was lucky.


And on a very personal note I was not lucky enough to have my nephew at Easter this year or for the last 5 years because he chose to shoot heroin and died in 2014, so this shit is as personal as I comes. He wasn't prescribed oxy or ever had an reason other than he was soft minded and listened to his "friends" who said how amazing it felt to get high. Start to finish - dead in one year. And to hit a beeshive that many here hold dear to their hearts, he started with MJ and just liked getting high.





Funky_Catskills said:


> I helped 2 close friends get off prescribed opiates.. It wasn't easy..



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## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2019)

Ol Dirty Noodle said:


> Right and *what funds the research on said rare treatments? Profits from widely sold PKs, *I get it it’s an unfortunate reality/business model with built in zero-accountability



You really have no idea what you're talking about and sound dumb on this issue. 

 Like ThinkSnow & cdskier, I too have worked in biotech and pharma most of my career.   You've watched one too many dramatic documentaries and have blindly listened to too many politicians trying to (apparently successfully) inflame you.   

FWIW, (not that I think you'll even care to learn), few pharma companies as a percent of the whole even sell these drugs, and those that do dont generally focus on orphan drug treatments.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> I work in a busy midsized hospital's ER in SE Mass and we average 2 ODs every day (Monday-Friday) I'm here. At least 2-3 deaths per week out of those. So no one needs to tell me the horrors of opiate addiction. *The ones I get to talk to didn't start using heroin because the had a surgery and was prescribed oxys for pain control. The lionshare illegally obtained them* to help them escape their demons.



THIS.

Here is another myth regarding this issue. That most people get hooked because they had a backache & a doc prescribed them a drug.  

Does this happen?  Absolutely it does.  But there is this myth out there that is the 2nd-rung of the naive "evil Big pharma" argument, that that's how most people get hooked, and as you correctly note, this could not be further from the truth.


----------



## O09 (Apr 24, 2019)

I was under the impression that the guy was vp at peaks at the time that he was busted setting up the oxy distribution ring.  The local police traced the packages that were being sent to him under his dog's name.  Caught him with something like 500 pills.  Could be rumor.


----------



## prsboogie (Apr 24, 2019)

I really don't get why anyone would want to hurt likely hundreds of thousands of people by trying to shutter their employer. It's not their fault they are owned by shitheads





snoseek said:


> A one year mass boycott would probably fold peak.....



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## xlr8r (Apr 24, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> I really don't get why anyone would want to hurt likely hundreds of thousands of people by trying to shutter their employer. It's not their fault they are owned by shitheads
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app



And this kind of thinking is how shitheads like the Sacklers win.


----------



## Edd (Apr 24, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Like ThinkSnow & cdskier, I too have worked in biotech and pharma most of my career.



This is getting weird. I’ve worked in biotech for 13 years. We also make products targeting rare diseases.


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## sull1102 (Apr 24, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> And on a very personal note I was not lucky enough to have my nephew at Easter this year or for the last 5 years because he chose to shoot heroin and died in 2014, so this shit is as personal as I comes. He wasn't prescribed oxy or ever had an reason other than he was soft minded and listened to his "friends" who said how amazing it felt to get high. Start to finish - dead in one year. And to hit a beeshive that many here hold dear to their hearts, he started with MJ and just liked getting high.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app


Sorry for your loss, but MJ had zero to do with it. Blaming MJ is truly a problem in this country because it is an excuse that is too easy to use.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## FBGM (Apr 24, 2019)

O09 said:


> I was under the impression that the guy was vp at peaks at the time that he was busted setting up the oxy distribution ring.  The local police traced the packages that were being sent to him under his dog's name.  Caught him with something like 500 pills.  Could be rumor.



This is true. It was Jesse Boyd. He’s the son of the #1 at Peak. He was like overseeing all Jack Frost and big boulder at the time of this bust. Now I think he’s in charge of all mountain operations for peak. So yeah...good company.


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## Smellytele (Apr 24, 2019)

What ski area was owned by the owner of PBR? Think they are in the ski hall of fame


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## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2019)

Bromley

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## tumbler (Apr 24, 2019)

FBGM said:


> This is true. It was Jesse Boyd. He’s the son of the #1 at Peak. He was like overseeing all Jack Frost and big boulder at the time of this bust. Now I think he’s in charge of all mountain operations for peak. So yeah...good company.



Then this whole thing is completely F'd up.  Will employees start to walk?


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## drjeff (Apr 24, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Then this whole thing is completely F'd up.  Will employees start to walk?



Given the rural location of many Peak Resort properties, not exactly a plethora of job offerings for current Peak employees to walk to if they so choose. And for many they moved to those areas for the mountain lifestyle, so asking them to give that up, while it may sound reasonable on paper, may be a huge leap in reality.

In the big scheme of things, the likelihood is just like the cross section of passionate skiers and riders than make up the core of AZ isn't an accurate view of what the overall make up of the majority of skier/rider visits at any given resort day in and day out is, the overall impact of what the Sackler's increasing their stake in Peak resorts last year will end up being to the majority of Peak customers is likely going to be minimal in the big scheme of things.  It's just not going to get the national media attention like say the Dick's Sporting Goods and removing guns and ammunition from their stores choice, or the Target bathroom/dressing room of your choice media issue or the Yeti pulling their brand status with NRA members did.

Will there be people in these companies and/or Doctors who willingly over prescribed Opiods continued to be brought up on charges and/or face fines and possible jail time? Yup.  Will the media attention decrease over time? Probably, as more and more these days the "relevance" of a media pushed topic has a shorter and shorter lifespan to the general public (even if a small cross section of the population continues to be borderline obsessed with the topic.

Is this a BIG social deal/crisis? Yup.  Is it also a multi-factorial situation? Yup. Has Oxycontin in particular, when used properly been a godsend for some select patients? Yup. Has Oxycontin when used properly, as well as used not properly been a terrible drug that has caused addiction and overdose issues? No doubt about it


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## catskillman (Apr 24, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Not sure I hold anything against Peaks so that would be inappropriate to me. Yes they took bad $ but it's tough for me to blame them. I'm sure I've made money from investments in pharma. Do the Sacklers manage day to day ops at Peaks resorts? doubtful.
> 
> Peaks runs ski areas...although the fact that a lift ops had to be revived from an overdose is pretty chilling.



Yes, and there was another overdose in the bar.  That guy did not make it


----------



## Hawk (Apr 24, 2019)

I have my own personal view about this.  I have friends that took oxy and became mildly addicted.  Sweats, headaches, sick feelings.  One from shoulder surgery, one from a hip replacement.  We have talked about this a number of times and they blame doctors and the FDA more then the sackers.  In the general scheme of things drug companies come up with all kinds of medications.  Son Good some bad, some work and some fail and cause great harm.  Most try with good intensions but the pressure to succeed with big money on the line is a huge problem.  Where was the FDA with trials and testing.  Where were the doctors when the patients came back with addiction symptoms?  I mean is was not long after the drug was released that everybody knew it was addictive.   The big picture is that if we sue and put out of business all these companies that make the drugs, then who will find the next cure?  With the current drug problems the northeast is facing, people want heads and where do we draw the line?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> *What ski area was owned by the owner of PBR? Think they are in the ski hall of fame*



They sure as hell aren't in the beer hall of fame.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2019)

Another timely article

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...cZvzAxaTsIZrvWP2skXUztNO7iQ9LFytpzk6h1uRxuy8I

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## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Another timely article
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...cZvzAxaTsIZrvWP2skXUztNO7iQ9LFytpzk6h1uRxuy8I



Awesome news.   I love how the government is really starting to make this a focus.  Part of the reason this became an epidemic is that for years, nothing was done.  The "summit" to holistically address the opioid problem kicked off this week.


https://www.rx-summit.com/


----------



## prsboogie (Apr 24, 2019)

MJ is a debate for another time but the point was the kid liked to get high and chased bigger and "better" highs and it caught him. 





sull1102 said:


> Sorry for your loss, but MJ had zero to do with it. Blaming MJ is truly a problem in this country because it is an excuse that is too easy to use.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Do Work (Apr 25, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> THIS.
> 
> Here is another myth regarding this issue. That most people get hooked because they had a backache & a doc prescribed them a drug.
> 
> Does this happen?  Absolutely it does.  But there is this myth out there that is the 2nd-rung of the naive "evil Big pharma" argument, that that's how most people get hooked, and as you correctly note, this could not be further from the truth.





Uuuuuuuh...  Yeah, not to interject on your guys' circle jerk, but how tf else do you think tens of millions of pills get into circulation without bad docs writing bad scripts???  

You can't get Oxy into the hands of people without a doctor.  Own that simple fact please and thank you.


----------



## Do Work (Apr 25, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Will there be people in these companies and/or Doctors who willingly over prescribed Opiods continued to be brought up on charges and/or face fines and possible jail time? Yup.  Will the media attention decrease over time? Probably, as more and more these days the "relevance" of a media pushed topic has a shorter and shorter lifespan to the general public (even if a small cross section of the population continues to be borderline obsessed with the topic.





If there's ever a time when people stop talking about how messed up what Purdue/The Sacklers did here, we are in a lot of trouble.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 25, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Uuuuuuuh...  Yeah, not to interject on your guys' circle jerk, but how tf else do you think tens of millions of pills get into circulation without bad docs writing bad scripts???
> 
> You can't get Oxy into the hands of people without a doctor.  Own that simple fact please and thank you.




Uhhhhhh, yeah, you may want to reread prsboogie's post and my post and try to read for context. 

Own that simple fact please and thank you.


----------



## skiur (Apr 25, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Uuuuuuuh...  Yeah, not to interject on your guys' circle jerk, but how tf else do you think tens of millions of pills get into circulation without bad docs writing bad scripts???
> 
> You can't get Oxy into the hands of people without a doctor.  Own that simple fact please and thank you.



I don't know where u live but u certainly don't need a doctor or prescription to get oxy where I live.  Your fact is not true.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 25, 2019)

Are Oxys like Fentanyl where Chinese manufacturers are shipping them in illegally?  Otherwise I would think the vast majority of the pills on the black market are coming via crooked doctors and pharmacists.  That's all Do Work is saying.  I suppose some might be from robberies of Drug stores, but a very small percentage.  

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## x10003q (Apr 25, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Are Oxys like Fentanyl where Chinese manufacturers are shipping them in illegally?  Otherwise I would think the vast majority of the pills on the black market are coming via crooked doctors and pharmacists.  That's all Do Work is saying.  I suppose some might be from robberies of Drug stores, but a very small percentage.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Not just crooked Drs and Pharmacists, but the wholesalers Miami-Luken and H.D. Smith that delivered 20.8 million pills into a West Virginia town of 2900 over a 10 year period. Despite all the rules for tracking these opioids, I guess nobody noticed this crazy usage.

"If you want to know how the opioid epidemic  got so out of control, it’s hard to do better than this statistic:  Between 2006 and 2016, out-of-state drug companies shipped nearly 21  million opioid painkillers to two pharmacies in Williamson, West  Virginia, population 2,900."

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/1/30/16951316/opioid-epidemic-painkillers-west-virginia-shipments


----------



## JimG. (Apr 25, 2019)

Wow it really goes to show how what amounts to a few bad apples really do spoil it for everyone. 

 As usual the truly bad actors are few. Sackler behavior is utterly heinous; it would be a shame if skiing was affected as a result.


----------



## andrec10 (Apr 25, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Wow it really goes to show how what amounts to a few bad apples really do spoil it for everyone.
> 
> As usual the truly bad actors are few. Sackler behavior is utterly heinous; it would be a shame if skiing was affected as a result.



Well, I am glad I only have 3 years left at Hunter. Gore will be my new home base then.


----------



## Gforce (Apr 25, 2019)

Not a good look for peaks.  This is not surprising as their Exec team has been indifferent with how poorly there operations have been run/funded (outside of Mt Snow). Just look at Attitash as an example. 
Peaks clearly have had their hands full with Cash flow problems, mounting debt and funding challenges....so they turn to a Seedy covert source as just disclosed.

Something always smelled fishy with that dude Boyd After the Grand Summit debacle last year. Owners took back control of the GS hotel and resort as Peaks had run it into the ground.


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## Do Work (Apr 25, 2019)

skiur said:


> I don't know where u live but u certainly don't need a doctor or prescription to get oxy where I live.  Your fact is not true.




Look, somewhere along the line those pills passed through a legal scrip.  There is no dostribution direct to the black market from Purdue


----------



## Do Work (Apr 25, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Are Oxys like Fentanyl where Chinese manufacturers are shipping them in illegally?  Otherwise I would think the vast majority of the pills on the black market are coming via crooked doctors and pharmacists.  That's all Do Work is saying.  I suppose some might be from robberies of Drug stores, but a very small percentage.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app




Precisely.  It has to have passed through a legal channel.  It doesn’t go from Purdue directly to street drug dealers.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 25, 2019)

Do Work said:


> *Precisely.  It has to have passed through a legal channel. * It doesn’t go from Purdue directly to street drug dealers.



Do you always spout off on subjects you know absolutely nothing about, or just this one?   

 Tons of **** is coming in through China and Mexico.  

Tons of **** is being pressed in basements in America and Canada.    Read a book or something.


----------



## catskillman (Apr 26, 2019)

Gforce said:


> Not a good look for peaks.  This is not surprising as their Exec team has been indifferent with how poorly there operations have been run/funded (outside of Mt Snow). Just look at Attitash as an example.
> Peaks clearly have had their hands full with Cash flow problems, mounting debt and funding challenges....so they turn to a Seedy covert source as just disclosed.
> 
> Something always smelled fishy with that dude Boyd After the Grand Summit debacle last year. Owners took back control of the GS hotel and resort as Peaks had run it into the ground.




not to mention all the lawsuits they have going over the Hunter North debacle....


----------



## Gforce (Apr 26, 2019)

catskillman said:


> not to mention all the lawsuits they have going over the Hunter North debacle....




There you go.  Precisely!


----------



## FBGM (Apr 26, 2019)

Gforce said:


> Not a good look for peaks.  This is not surprising as their Exec team has been indifferent with how poorly there operations have been run/funded (outside of Mt Snow). Just look at Attitash as an example.
> Peaks clearly have had their hands full with Cash flow problems, mounting debt and funding challenges....so they turn to a Seedy covert source as just disclosed.
> 
> Something always smelled fishy with that dude Boyd After the Grand Summit debacle last year. Owners took back control of the GS hotel and resort as Peaks had run it into the ground.



I’ve only been saying this for a few years now...


----------



## skiur (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Look, somewhere along the line those pills passed through a legal scrip.  There is no dostribution direct to the black market from Purdue



Believe that if you like but it still does not make it true.  A script is not necessary, the black market gets there shit without a doctors involvement.


----------



## Do Work (Apr 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you always spout off on subjects you know absolutely nothing about, or just this one?
> 
> Tons of **** is coming in through China and Mexico.
> 
> Tons of **** is being pressed in basements in America and Canada.    Read a book or something.





Listen man.  I'm talking about stamped, taxed, legit pills- F'ING MILLIONS OF WHICH FLOODED THE STREETS.  

OF COURSE the outside markets are creating copies but WHO TF CREATED THAT MARKET and how many millions of pills changed hands before then?  Also how on earth did the illegal channels and demand become established before the copycats came in???  How does one just gloss over that AND insult someone speaking about it???  You can't honestly be that dense, and I hope you're just joking.  

I've read more books than you might think but thanks for talking to me like I'm illiterate for really no reason whatsoever.  Have a nice day.  I'm out.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Apr 26, 2019)

catskillman said:


> not to mention all the lawsuits they have going over the Hunter North debacle....



Are there lawsuits? really? For not being able to control yourself?  

People that suck at skiing and sue ski areas deserve a special place in hell.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Apr 26, 2019)

John Oliver discusses the extent and root of the nation’s epidemic of opioid addiction.

https://youtu.be/5pdPrQFjo2o


----------



## ThinkSnow (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> I've read more books than you might think but thanks for talking to me like I'm illiterate for really no reason whatsoever.  Have a nice day.  I'm out.


  Guess he didn't like the circle jerk?


----------



## JimG. (Apr 26, 2019)

I wanted to laugh at this but it's not funny.

I give Oliver a ton of credit for trying to take the truth and make it easier to process with humor.​


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Guess he didn't like the circle jerk?



Then he shouldn't make repeated ignorant statements.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2019)

JimG. said:


> I wanted to laugh at this but it's not funny.
> 
> I give Oliver a ton of credit for trying to take the truth andmake it easier to process with humor



The problem is, it's really not "true", at least, not exactly in the way he's trying to frame it.

It's true that Purdue and a few smaller players were bad actors, so everything in that context is correct.  

But to take that info and then LEAP to the conclusion that this is what caused the opioid & heroin problem is wildly incorrect.  It's also incorrect to suggest that tons of people_* legally prescribed*_ the drug from their physician become junkies.  It's a complete misunderstanding of the problem.  And if you really want to solve a problem, then it needs to be understood in the first place.



> *The simple story that addiction happens all the time when people get opioids for pain is clearly wrong.*
> 
> *How do we know this — and why is this story so different from the one we hear in the media?* For one, the National Household Survey on Drugs has asked about the sources of misused opioids in recent years: this representative survey of tens of thousands of Americans shows that less than a quarter of people who start misusing these drugs obtained them directly from one or multiple doctors. Half of new users, in fact, say they got them from a friend or relative for free.
> 
> ...



https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/articl...d-crisis-most-pain-patients-dont-get-addicted


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Apr 26, 2019)

This thread is definitely a fukcing haters circle jerk and is the worst..

Have a great summer everyone!!


----------



## Do Work (Apr 26, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> The problem is, it's really not "true", at least, not exactly in the way he's trying to frame it.
> 
> It's true that Purdue and a few smaller players were bad actors, so everything in that context is correct.
> 
> ...







My God.  See, this is why I absolutely hate people and the internet.  You've just admitted that what I said was true, but you took issue with the severity of the reality I described- and that's fine except you used a goddam VICE article written by a C- middle schooler to back it up.  

Even in the damn c&p you posted you don't realize the data you shared agrees with what I said- Those relatives and friends "giving away free Oxys"- WHERE DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY GOT THEM??????  They got them from their doctor, and they had extras because they were over prescribed!   

Honestly, the refusal to assign blame to the only sect of society with control over the substance- and whose job it was to make sure this didn't happen is pathetic, and a huge reason it continues to propagate today.  PATHETIC.


----------



## Do Work (Apr 26, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> This thread is definitely a fukcing haters circle jerk and is the worst..
> 
> Have a great summer everyone!!





Right?  Ugh.  Complete waste.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Even in the damn c&p you posted* you don't realize the data you shared agrees with what I said*- Those relatives and friends "giving away free Oxys"- WHERE DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY GOT THEM??????  They got them from their doctor, and they had extras because they were over prescribed!



No, it doesn't, because it's a minority of the people who get hooked.  Which you don't understand.  As I and a few others have tried to explain to you, most people aren't "innocently" hooked, most people are active drug seekers. 

 You also dont understand that most Fentanyl and its' derivatives on the illegal market are coming from OUS sources, not from legally prescribed domestic doctors, OR "given away" after initially legally prescribed.  

Put simply, Rx pills are NOT the major problem (despite what the media breathlessly tells you), the lion's share of the problem is illegal **** on the black market and synthetics from basements and barns.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> My God.  See, this is why I absolutely hate people and the internet.  You've just admitted that what I said was true, but you took issue with the severity of the reality I described- and that's fine except you used a goddam VICE article written by a C- middle schooler to back it up.



Huh? That article that BG shared was written by an author with some pretty good credentials who has written for many mainstream publications. She's a NY Times Bestselling author as well. Where did you get that it was written by some middle schooler?


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 26, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Are there lawsuits? really? For not being able to control yourself?
> 
> People that suck at skiing and sue ski areas deserve a special place in hell.



Right next to drug addicts who sue pharmaceutical companies whose products they abused?


----------



## Do Work (Apr 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Huh? That article that BG shared was written by an author with some pretty good credentials who has written for many mainstream publications. She's a NY Times Bestselling author as well. Where did you get that it was written by some middle schooler?




C average middle schooler may have been a bit harsh but if you read my last post your note that while the author attempted to paint the legal pharma sector as blameless by insisting most people got their first dose for free from a friend or family member- but in the same breath trying to say that overprescribing them isn’t the problem...  you’ve got a very clear conflict of cause and effect.  How else does everyone’s friends and family get all these extra free pills???  Do we just act like it wasn’t a bad doc or bad script because it wasn’t *their* doctor???  It is a disingenuous way to spin that information, IMO.  

Also it’s worth noting that I’m not going to sit here and say doctors did ALL of it, but holy crap guys, how do you think we got this far??  It literally HAD to start with bad scripts.  That’s what literally created the market in the first place.  I don’t understand how people think we got here without a single bad doc or bad script.  It’s mind boggling how hard people are working to absolve the one group of people who had control over this stuff from any responsibility to its blatant and widespread abuse.  Sad, really.  Then again, integrity is a dying attribute so I can’t really be surprised people are shying from even the slightest shadow of culpability.


----------



## Do Work (Apr 26, 2019)

And my final point is that “active drug seekers” are null and void if the people writing scripts and those around them held themselves to the oath they swore.  When I say “bad doc” I don’t necessarily mean malicious intent.  The post back a ways about someone watching their attending writing a script to a seeker and swallowing the line of bs afterwards made me ill.  That type of shoulder shrug is how things like this propagate and they go on every day wherever someone simply can’t be bothered.  That would be like me saying “Hey we are supposed to build this chairlift to spec but that’s a real pain, so I’m just going to do it however is convenient for me and the guys today.  People will probably die but whatever, they’d die someday anyways.”

We’re handling the potential to ruin lives or improve them, but when what you’re handling is THAT high consequence, the right way is often the very hardest way imaginable. 

Mistakes happen for sure and obviously not every script was bad, but casual laziness in handling life and death situations almost always result in the latter, ESPECIALLY with parties seemingly hell-bent on using your wares to die with stop at nothing to erode your safeguards against it...  Add to that any systematic efforts to remove those safeguards as almost sure-fire failures.  It’s a very scary situation and we need to give credit to all participants, no matter how small the cog when we examine the whole of the machine.  Plain honesty dictates that doctors do own a share of the blame in this debacle and we all know it.  They don’t own it, but they definitely share it.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> while the author attempted to paint the legal pharma sector as blameless by insisting most people got their first dose for free from a friend or family member- but in the same breath trying to say that overprescribing them isn’t the problem...  you’ve got a very clear conflict of cause and effect.  How else does everyone’s friends and family get all these extra free pills???



Over-prescribing medication does not cause pill sharing, it merely creates the possibility.  You need someone who's actually willing to share their extra drugs with friends and families to create the problem the author is describing.  And people pushing highly addictive drugs on their friends and families so they can have gave a good time or whatever are far worse actors in this scenario than the doctors or pharmacists who are easy targets to scapegoat.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> C average middle schooler may have been a bit harsh but if you read my last post your note that while the author attempted to paint the legal pharma sector as blameless by insisting most people got their first dose for free from a friend or family member- but in the same breath trying to say that overprescribing them isn’t the problem...  you’ve got a very clear conflict of cause and effect.  How else does everyone’s friends and family get all these extra free pills???  Do we just act like it wasn’t a bad doc or bad script because it wasn’t *their* doctor???  It is a disingenuous way to spin that information, IMO.
> 
> Also it’s worth noting that I’m not going to sit here and say doctors did ALL of it, but holy crap guys, how do you think we got this far??  It literally HAD to start with bad scripts.  That’s what literally created the market in the first place.  I don’t understand how people think we got here without a single bad doc or bad script.  It’s mind boggling how hard people are working to absolve the one group of people who had control over this stuff from any responsibility to its blatant and widespread abuse.  Sad, really.  Then again, integrity is a dying attribute so I can’t really be surprised people are shying from even the slightest shadow of culpability.



You're painting far too narrow blame here. If I get a script from a doctor and don't use all the medicine because for whatever reason I decide I don't need it and instead I give it to someone else, that's MY fault, not the doctors. Sorry. Those people that give their pills to someone else need to take responsibility too. My dentist years ago prescribed me Vicodin for a tooth that needed a root canal (10 pills...only a roughly 2 day supply if I took as prescribed every 4 hours). I still to this day (17 years later) have 8 pills left. They didn't end up in anyone else's hand. No one abused them. Why? Because I took responsibility and accountability for the drugs that were prescribed to me (a novel concept, I know). I don't expect doctors to prescribe one pill at a time or follow patients home to make sure they take the pills themselves. Every person along the way needs to share a piece of the responsibility. Do you consider my example a bad script because I have 80% of the pills left? It sounds like a lot, but I really don't think it is when you look at how long it would have lasted if I was in enough pain to take as prescribed.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 26, 2019)

Do Work said:


> I don’t understand how people think we got here without *a single* bad doc or bad script.



Not "a single" person in this thread has said that.  

And your spinning, twisting, changing verse is rather obvious.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 26, 2019)

cdskier said:


> You're painting far too narrow blame here. If I get a script from a doctor and don't use all the medicine because for whatever reason I decide I don't need it and instead I give it to someone else, that's MY fault, not the doctors. Sorry. Those people that give their pills to someone else need to take responsibility too. My dentist years ago prescribed me Vicodin for a tooth that needed a root canal (10 pills...only a roughly 2 day supply if I took as prescribed every 4 hours). I still to this day (17 years later) have 8 pills left. They didn't end up in anyone else's hand. No one abused them. Why? Because I took responsibility and accountability for the drugs that were prescribed to me (a novel concept, I know). I don't expect doctors to prescribe one pill at a time or follow patients home to make sure they take the pills themselves. Every person along the way needs to share a piece of the responsibility. Do you consider my example a bad script because I have 80% of the pills left? It sounds like a lot, but I really don't think it is when you look at how long it would have lasted if I was in enough pain to take as prescribed.


Spot on here. The reality is everyone perceives pain differently. Some people absolutely refuse to take even 1 Advil if they practically have a body part about to fall off, whereas some other people's will react to a paper cut like they're going to die. At times also stigma of something that has been created by words of a friend, or the media, or even pop culture at times can play into one's perception of pain as well.

I can tell you as someone with a DEA number, this presents a dilemma as your trying to manage a patient from initial diagnosis, the treatment itself, and the recovery after.

Fortunately for me and my dental practice, I don't have to treat long duration, chronic pain patients. Managing acute pain, while challenging at times to gauge each patients personal level of pain (what might be a 2 out of 10 pain wise for 1 patient may very well be an 8 out of 10 for another patient), is almost always something that can be successfully treated within 48hrs and as such, a small amount of pain medication.

Additionally on an anecdotal level, whether it's a shift in pain medication perception by the public, or maybe just the cross section of the population that I treat, the amount of people who I see that seem to just be seeking out pain medication has gone to almost none (and there are plenty of local news reports of EMT's or police Narcan revivals, as well as OD deaths in my general geographical area on maybe not a daily basis, but certainly more than 1/2 the days of the week). The reality is that my business partner and I RARELY prescribe pain medication, and haven't done so for years. So if that has created a word of mouth situation amongst local prescription drug seekers that there's zero chance that they're going to get a script from my office, fine by me.

As I have stated before in this thread, this problem isn't a singular issue at it's source. There's a number of factors/variables, and not all the same for each person either, that have come together for a certain subset of the population and has resulted in numerous OD deaths. Oxycontin, and other similar strong opiod pain medications for some, when used properly, are truly a godsend medication. For others, especially if misused, they are a major problem that can take over one's life and potentially rapidly lead them down a fatal path. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## abc (Apr 27, 2019)

Quite right. 

I’m about to go into a major surgery. And I have a script for Oxy. I know I probably don’t need it as my pain tolerance is naturally high (I just don’t FEEL the pain). But having the script (or the drug) at hand is necessary, in case I react like average people. Should the doctor NOT prescribe it and leave me with a potential for severe pain? Am I not to be trusted that I may resell the drug to “friends”? 

After all, I have a $2500 co-pay out of pocket!!!


----------



## abc (Apr 27, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> MJ is a debate for another time but the point was the kid liked to get high and chased bigger and "better" highs and it caught him.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app


I think that’s the elephant in the room everyone is tiptoeing around. 

Kids like that WILL get hook on SOMETHING. Whatever is the easiest to get at that particular timeframe. The day we “solve” the problem of opioid, is the day the next round of addictive shit enter the market!


----------



## dlague (Apr 27, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> All very true.
> But opioids can/will kill or have you addicted on the first dose..
> I love whiskey - but I'd never touch opioids..  Because I've seen how fast people get fucked up on it.  And helped people get undone from it..  And have lost a few people because of it..  Way more than alcohol..   Which I know is dangerous..
> 
> Don't EVER do them... ever..  unless there's no other choice for pain relief..


I had knee surgery and was prescribed an opiod took it twice and I was done.  Did not get addicted not even close.  Opioids are prescribed by Dentists, Doctors, Surgeons, Practitioners, and Veterinarians.  I think they many be over prescribed which can lead to problems, but I also think that it takes the wrong mindset and trouble starts.  One of the most commonly used opioids that result in OD is fentanyl and generally illegally obtained.  The medical industry has taken steps to limit doses and prescriptions.  But like anything there is a black market.

Now Canada is another story.  My wife was having a pinched nerve in her upper back while in Banff.  They shot here up with cortisone and gave here 50 percocet which was ubsurd and charged us $25 for them.  We did not even ask for them.

Sent from my SM-G930V using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Harvey (Apr 28, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> First I'm reading of this:
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2019/04/18/fam...&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=SocialWarfare
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Maybe it's arbitrary, but I do see a difference between alcohol and oxy.  There are plenty of people who drink moderately, and it's part of a productive life. Not sure that can be said about oxy.

I was given percoset for a broken thumb once about 20(?) years ago. I didn't really know what it was, the doctor told me to be careful, that it was addictive. I said, give me ten and don't refill it if I ask you.  I took two of them, I must admit out of curiosity, my thumb didn't really hurt that bad.  I never felt any kind of buzz from it and it messed with my stomach. I switched to aspirin and tossed the old outdated percs when our daughter was born.

Thanks for posting this, it's an important topic.  I'm going to post this link in our forum too.


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## FBGM (Apr 28, 2019)

Anyone know of that Mountain operations manager is now getting a better deal on Oxy’s?


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## Newpylong (Apr 29, 2019)

Not taking a stance either way but the Marketing Director for Mount Snow posted a Peak press release denying the claims of majority ownership on their pass holder website.


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## andrec10 (Apr 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Not taking a stance either way but the Marketing Director for Mount Snow posted a Peak press release denying the claims of majority ownership on their pass holder website.



So it hit a nerve!


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## FBGM (Apr 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Not taking a stance either way but the Marketing Director for Mount Snow posted a Peak press release denying the claims of majority ownership on their pass holder website.



Nothing like feeling the bad press and pressure and then straight up lying.


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## mbedle (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm not a financial guy, but after reading the SEC filings and going back to the original article that VTDigger references, it doesn't seem that at this point, CAP 1 has majority ownership. In order for that to happen, they would have to exercise all of the warrant certificates for stocks totaling around $57 million. Considering that all of the warrant certificates have a per stock price significantly above current peak value, I don't see CAP 1 jumping in to buy overprices stocks in Peak.


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## p_levert (Apr 29, 2019)

I've been hoping this thread would just die.

DoWork, please keep up your great posts about Magic!  I'm a fan.


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## skiur (Apr 29, 2019)

p_levert said:


> I've been hoping this thread would just die.



Care to elaborate?


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## Edd (Apr 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Not taking a stance either way but the Marketing Director for Mount Snow posted a Peak press release denying the claims of majority ownership on their pass holder website.



Could you post a link? My search just turns up links reporting the majority ownership.


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## drjeff (Apr 29, 2019)

Edd said:


> Could you post a link? My search just turns up links reporting the majority ownership.




The details, are all spelled out in the 10Q SEC filing dated 12/12/18


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## Edd (Apr 29, 2019)

drjeff said:


> The details, are all spelled out in the 10Q SEC filing dated 12/12/18



He’s talking about a press release. That’s what I’d like to see.


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## JimG. (Apr 29, 2019)

Went to a gender reveal party yesterday. Met a few family members one a big VT skier.

After BSing for 15 minutes he spits out, totally unsolicited, that he's never skiing at Mt. Snow again because of the Sacklers.

Took me off guard; this thread has taught me not to respond to the topic with anything but a nod and an "oh, really?".

Conversation moved on from there but the word is out.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2019)

Edd said:


> He’s talking about a press release. That’s what I’d like to see.



I'd like to see it too, but I assume the Press Release is essentially re-stating what is in the 10Q filing. Here are a couple relevant statements from the SEC filing itself:

Here's what they currently control it seems:


> Upon closing the Snow Time Acquisition, Cap 1 and its affiliates hold approximately 37.9% of the voting power of the Company



Here's information on what they would control if they exercised all rights and options, etc that they were given:


> Assuming the conversion of the Series A Preferred Stock and exercise of all warrants held by Cap 1 as of the Snow Time Acquisition closing, Cap 1 would own approximately 54% of the outstanding shares of our common stock.


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## Domeskier (Apr 29, 2019)

The distinction between a controlling interest and a substantial minority interest ought to be morally irrelevant to people who are concerned about this drug family making money off of Peaks.  But I guess if you're Peaks you want to hope that those people don't realize it.


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## skiur (Apr 29, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> The distinction between a controlling interest and a substantial minority interest ought to be morally irrelevant to people who are concerned about this drug family making money off of Peaks.  But I guess if you're Peaks you want to hope that those people don't realize it.



Hasnt the sackler family had a substantial minority share for years?  Peaks must have tried real hard to keep this under the radar, Really does not matter, by next fall majority of people will have forgotten about it and everything will be normal by the time snowmaking starts up.


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## drjeff (Apr 29, 2019)

skiur said:


> Hasnt the sackler family had a substantial minority share for years?  Peaks must have tried real hard to keep this under the radar, Really does not matter, by next fall majority of people will have forgotten about it and everything will be normal by the time snowmaking starts up.



Yup, the Sackler's, through their subsidiary companies have held a significant minority stake in Peak for some time now. Pretty sure that if one wants to take the time to dig through the publicly available SEC filings of many companies they choose to do business with, that they'd find some investors with ties to things that they may very well have some moral objection too.

The angle that the media has chosen to present this story from, just isn't factually accurate that this moment in time. On paper, yes, there is the potential for the Sackler family subsidary investment companies to exercise the current above market price options and acquire a majority interest in Peak. They are not though currently a majority owner of Peak


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 29, 2019)

media slant?!?!?!?!?  that would never happen...


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## catskillman (Apr 29, 2019)

Yup.  And there is also one against an individual ski patroller.  I have that info from a reliable individual


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## 2Planker (Apr 29, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> The distinction between a controlling interest and a substantial minority interest ought to be morally irrelevant to people who are concerned about this drug family making money off of Peaks.  But I guess if you're Peaks you want to hope that those people don't realize it.



I work for Tufts Medical Center where Tufts University has the Sackler School of BioMedical Sciences...  Built in the 80's by a 42M Sackler Family donation.  Needless to say hundreds of Tufts Univ. & Tufts Med. Cntr. Faculty and employees are trying to press the university to remove the name....


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## thebigo (Apr 29, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Not taking a stance either way but the Marketing Director for Mount Snow posted a Peak press release denying the claims of majority ownership on their pass holder website.



How does one access the passholder website?


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## Smellytele (Apr 29, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Went to a gender reveal party yesterday.



Every time I hear this I think that some adult is having a party to now say they are the other sex.


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## skiur (Apr 29, 2019)

thebigo said:


> How does one access the passholder website?



You buy a pass and they let you on it.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2019)

Had a Peaks pass 6 out of last 7 years.  Haven't heard about pass holders website

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Had a Peaks pass 6 out of last 7 years.  Haven't heard about pass holders website



It is a Mt Snow-specific forum. Been around for at least 10 years based on this thread:
https://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/64639-Mount-Snow-Passholder-Appreciation-Site


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## 2Planker (Apr 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Had a Peaks pass 6 out of last 7 years.  Haven't heard about pass holders website
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Ditto.  10+ years, never heard of a Pass Holders website...  Attitash blog is OK, but how much can you write about a failing lift...


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## drjeff (Apr 29, 2019)

The passholders site has always been a Mount Snow focused forum.

Occasionally some general Peak questions get asked about either other Peak resorts or the company in general, but the vast majority of the questions/topic pertain to Mount Snow, and the majority of the Peak crew responding to the questions are Mount Snow specific personnel.

I'm wondering if it's promoted for the folks who buy their passes with Mount Snow as their listed home resort, since I know I have seen the passholders forum listed as a "perk" on various print and online pass adds with Mount Snow listed as the resort at the top of the add/page?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Harvey (Apr 29, 2019)

Smellytele said:


> Every time I hear this I think that some adult is having a party to now say they are the other sex.



That's not what it is?


----------



## JimG. (Apr 29, 2019)

skiur said:


> Hasnt the sackler family had a substantial minority share for years?  Peaks must have tried real hard to keep this under the radar, Really does not matter, by next fall majority of people will have forgotten about it and everything will be normal by the time snowmaking starts up.



This is sadly true.


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## JimG. (Apr 29, 2019)

Harvey said:


> That's not what it is?



Baby gender reveal.

It's a boy!


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2019)

skiur said:


> Hasnt the sackler family had a substantial minority share for years?  Peaks must have tried real hard to keep this under the radar



How exactly does a public company keep things that are publicly available as part of their SEC filings under the radar? The information was out there for anyone that bothered to look. The problem is that no one cared to look until someone in the media did the research and wrote a story about it. And yes, they purchased their initial 7% ownership stake back in 2015 that qualified them as "beneficial owners". And their name was in black and white in the SEC filing regarding "Statement of acquisition of beneficial ownership by individuals".


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## prsboogie (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm sure they ain't giving back the 42M though are they





2Planker said:


> I work for Tufts Medical Center where Tufts University has the Sackler School of BioMedical Sciences...  Built in the 80's by a 42M Sackler Family donation.  Needless to say hundreds of Tufts Univ. & Tufts Med. Cntr. Faculty and employees are trying to press the university to remove the name....



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 29, 2019)

Harvey said:


> That's not what it is?



No; it's a stereotypically insipid millennial thing.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 30, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> No; it's a stereotypically insipid millennial thing.


  Well stated.


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## skiur (Apr 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> How exactly does a public company keep things that are publicly available as part of their SEC filings under the radar? The information was out there for anyone that bothered to look. The problem is that no one cared to look until someone in the media did the research and wrote a story about it. And yes, they purchased their initial 7% ownership stake back in 2015 that qualified them as "beneficial owners". And their name was in black and white in the SEC filing regarding "Statement of acquisition of beneficial ownership by individuals".



How many passholders do you really think look at SEC filings?  Maybe .005%?    This is news that they would have preferred to have stayed out of the light.  If not for the media story it would have stayed out of the light and we wouldn't have 8 pages of discussion on it.  Just because something is publicly available does not make it publicly known.


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2019)

skiur said:


> How many passholders do you really think look at SEC filings?  Maybe .005%?    This is news that they would have preferred to have stayed out of the light.  If not for the media story it would have stayed out of the light and we wouldn't have 8 pages of discussion on it.  Just because something is publicly available does not make it publicly known.



I agree with much of what you're saying. What I don't agree with is that they had to "try hard" to hide it. How many companies regularly issue press releases every time there's a stock transaction resulting in someone becoming a beneficial owner? So Peaks did nothing different than most other companies (that's my point). That people are too lazy to research a company and their ownership is not Peak's fault. That's a general problem with society. We don't care until someone else tells us to care. Ignorance is bliss!


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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I agree with much of what you're saying. What I don't agree with is that they had to "try hard" to hide it. How many companies regularly issue press releases every time there's a stock transaction resulting in someone becoming a beneficial owner? So Peaks did nothing different than most other companies (that's my point). That people are too lazy to research a company and their ownership is not Peak's fault. That's a general problem with society. We don't care until someone else tells us to care. Ignorance is bliss!



Honestly it seems like most publicly traded companies don't make any comments about who their investors are. Much more likely it seems for an investor, especially a large investor to comment, often via business trade avenues, about them acquiring or selling a significant stake in a company if they so choose. Right? Wrong? That's fully open for debate...


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## snoseek (Apr 30, 2019)

I feel like if I was back there my greediness would win over my ethics. In a perfect world this company folds or gets out of nh...because they completely suck in nh. If I knew I could make an impact with that as a result I would jump in for a years or two....other than that wildcat is such a good hill to pass up


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## FBGM (Apr 30, 2019)

snoseek said:


> I feel like if I was back there my greediness would win over my ethics. In a perfect world this company folds or gets out of nh...because they completely suck in nh. If I knew I could make an impact with that as a result I would jump in for a years or two....other than that wildcat is such a good hill to pass up



They suck company wide. They don’t know how to run a company and business. They are in debt like crazy. No wonder they are letting such a black marked company come in and invest. I give them 2 years before fire sale and going under.


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## thebigo (Apr 30, 2019)

snoseek said:


> because they completely suck in nh.



Not an accurate statement, important to remember that crotched was defunct for over a decade with no hope of revival before peaks came to town. Today it has the best night skiing operation in northern New England and more importantly it is an excellent conduit for new skiers to fall in love with the sport. It offers cheap, local access for college students and excellent kids programs. 

I agree attitash is an absolute disaster but wildcat is a special place and they have been a decent steward. Wildcat pre-peaks never made snow like they do today. I also agree that it is starting to feel like asc - end of days, just hope whoever picks up the pieces has the resources and commitment to keep the crotch and cat going, the sport needs both. As for attitash, I have no idea.


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## Quietman (Apr 30, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Not an accurate statement, important to remember that crotched was defunct for over a decade with no hope of revival before peaks came to town. Today it has the best night skiing operation in northern New England and more importantly it is an excellent conduit for new skiers to fall in love with the sport. It offers cheap, local access for college students and excellent kids programs.



They invested a lot to rebuild Crotched from the ground up, and then spent the bucks to upgrade with the rocket which makes all the difference.  I saw a lot more young families with kids using day passes this season vs previous years, and most of the kids were smiling and happy.  Also, lots more lesson sessions this season.  Agree that they need to decide how to deal with Attitash, but the other mountains seem to be doing pretty well.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2019)

Does Peak publish an income statement broken down by ski area? 

I'd be interested in reading what the total revenue and profit margin is by each individual area.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Does Peak publish an income statement broken down by ski area?



I recall reading the initial filing, and I believe it did at the time as I remember realizing that Mount Snow was largely the cash cow.  I also remember thinking their debt level was staggering, and then they bought Hunter.


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## deadheadskier (May 1, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I recall reading the initial filing, and I believe it did at the time as I remember realizing that Mount Snow was largely the cash cow.  I also remember thinking their debt level was staggering, and then they bought Hunter.


My interest concern the lack of investment at Attitash.  I'm sure it has much to do with their debt situation, but I'd also be curious if the mountain is turning a healthy enough profit that perhaps they don't feel they need to invest in improvements. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## andrec10 (May 1, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I recall reading the initial filing, and I believe it did at the time as I remember realizing that Mount Snow was largely the cash cow.  I also remember thinking their debt level was staggering, and then they bought Hunter.



Hunter is another cash cow for them!


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## jimmywilson69 (May 1, 2019)

I'm certain the reason they bought snow time here in PA was to suck the profits from here and cover their debt... 

Now that their public it'll be interesting to see just how much money those 3 resorts makes in a season.


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## mbedle (May 1, 2019)

From the initial IPO

FY 2014	 
Property          Revenues	 	% Revenues	 	Visits	 
Hidden Valley

 	$	4,072	 	 	3.9	%	 	97.8	 
Snow Creek

 	 	3,072	 	 	2.9	%	 	73.7	 
Paoli Peaks

 	 	3,661	 	 	3.5	%	 	78.0	 
Mad River

 	 	7,831	 	 	7.4	%	 	180.0	 
Boston Mills

 	 	4,505	 	 	4.3	%	 	117.5	 
Brandywine

 	 	4,808	 	 	4.6	%	 	132.1	 
Crotched Mountain

 	 	4,398	 	 	4.2	%	 	94.6	 
Jack Frost

 	 	6,570	 	 	6.2	%	 	134.1	 
Big Boulder

 	 	5,967	 	 	5.7	%	 	102.2	 
Attitash (5)

 	 	14,353	 	 	13.6	%	 	172.3	 
Mount Snow (5)

 	 	41,350	 	 	39.3	%	 	468.9	 
Wildcat Mountain

 	 	3,322	 	 	3.2	%	 	64.4	 
Alpine Valley

 	 	1,297	 	 	1.2	%	 	36.0	 

​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
Total

 	$	105,205	 	 	100.0	%	 	1,751.5	 

​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​	​


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## drjeff (May 1, 2019)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'm certain the reason they bought snow time here in PA was to suck the profits from here and cover their debt...
> 
> Now that their public it'll be interesting to see just how much money those 3 resorts makes in a season.




The 3 resorts that comprised Snow Time represented about 600,000 annual skier/rider visits, and given the relatively up to date infrastructure of those 3 resorts, didn't need much major capital upgrades. Additionally they further solidified what appears to be Peak's current strategy of being a company with a pass that focuses on people living East of the Mississippi.  Time will tell about that strategy.

Add in the skier days that Hunter typically provides and over the course of the last few seasons, they've bought about 1000000 skiers visits to the company, and with a company estimated revenue per visit at about $80 right now, while adding to the debt, it also adds to the cash flow.  The ski industry isn't an industry for the faint of heart for sure!


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## jimmywilson69 (May 1, 2019)

Its concerning to me that a company that seems so insolvent just bought my home hills. They've caused quite a stir here and they've handled the public relations of forcing the peak pass down our throats poorly at best. 

I have no choice as Roundtop is 4 miles from home.


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## catskillman (Jul 30, 2019)

https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/carnes-vail-resorts-destroys-drug-kingpins/

[h=1]Vail Resorts destroys drug kingpins[/h]
recent interesting article!!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2019)

catskillman said:


> https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/carnes-vail-resorts-destroys-drug-kingpins/
> 
> [h=1]Vail Resorts destroys drug kingpins[/h]
> recent interesting article!!



Funny article.  

Im not sure if paying the Sacklers a significant chunk of change is "destroying" them.


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## Funky_Catskills (Jul 30, 2019)

catskillman said:


> https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/carnes-vail-resorts-destroys-drug-kingpins/
> 
> [h=1]Vail Resorts destroys drug kingpins[/h]
> recent interesting article!!




Was killing me that Hunter was owned by those Sackler mother f'ers...  One of the reasons I'm stoked for Vail..


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Im not sure if paying the Sacklers a significant chunk of change is "destroying" them.



If that's being "destroyed", sign me up for as much destruction as possible.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2019)

I also thought that article is weird in that it suggests Park City locals are in love with Vail ownership.   That is about as far from the vibe I get from being there as is humanly possible.  Unless it's just that you only hear from the people that bitch, but I sure have heard lots of bitching.


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## ScottySkis (Jul 30, 2019)

This personal subject is hard for me and it efficting many lovely people family's and friends and is a major epidemic terrible in Sullivan County NY now.  I not posting this to debate it it happened and I will post to help someone else hopefully . I loss my friend in around April 1 2019
We need to get people. Who are afflicted by this out of jail and into health industry that can help.
I don't really know who the blame. Government is my #1
 Its fucken really bad. I loss a close friend who said he was sober and just using cannabis. He was lovely person went to AA NA and day group s was graduating the day program. Because he was working. On Friday I saw him I had no idea that be the last day I saw him. We found out that horrible news on Tuesday at group . everyone was very upset. Its real. Its killing way to many people I think it should be debated on how to help addiction no wants it


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## thetrailboss (Jul 30, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I also thought that article is weird in that it suggests Park City locals are in love with Vail ownership.   That is about as far from the vibe I get from being there as is humanly possible.  Unless it's just that you only hear from the people that bitch, but I sure have heard lots of bitching.



Yeah, from my quick read it was meant as a tongue-in-cheek piece.  Park City folks aren't happy with Vail.  Or Alterra.  First world problems.  :lol:


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## Glenn (Aug 1, 2019)

> "Hating Vail is like hating Nickelback. People just do it because they think it’s cool.”



:lol:


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## abc (Aug 1, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Park City folks aren't happy with Vail.  Or Alterra.  First world problems.  :lol:


Totally a first world problem!

Park City was never "quiet" or uncrowded even in the pre-Vail days. DV maybe. Not PC. 

So I'm not entirely sure what they were upset about with the Vail take over. I have two friends who had been skiing the Canyons. They were not bitching. Their pass price dropped a few hundred dollars! They TALK about the crowds. But then, they've been talking about the crowd forever as I can remember! They talk about it in terms of how to get away from the crowd while on mountain. That's about it. 

Vail definitely brought more people to PC. But the change wasn't particularly significant because it was on the relatively crowded side to begin with... (not nearly as Alterra did to DV for that matter).


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## FBGM (Aug 1, 2019)

abc said:


> Totally a first world problem!
> 
> Park City was never "quiet" or uncrowded even in the pre-Vail days. DV maybe. Not PC.
> 
> ...




Let’s clear up some misinformation here

Deer Valley still has a skier cap and they said that number has not changed. So really no “more busy” there 

Park City has always been busy. But since Vail is has for sure increased. And increased with way more flatlanders and morons. That’s what the locals don’t like. The ski crowd is horrible there. But that’s what vail wants LA idiots to ski 3 runs and then drink and eat. 

Vail has also bought quite a bit in town. Hotel, stores, etc. that didn’t help. Also real estate and rentals are through the roof and Vail is to blame. For good and bad there. But there is no employee housing and Vail pays peanuts. They have had mass lifty coordinated sick days and walk outs. It’s funny.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 1, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Let’s clear up some misinformation here
> 
> Deer Valley still has a skier cap and they said that number has not changed. So really no “more busy” there
> 
> ...



That's pretty interesting. I'd love to hear more from locals there.


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## FBGM (Aug 1, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> That's pretty interesting. I'd love to hear more from locals there.



Second home there for over 10 years. Ask away


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## abc (Aug 1, 2019)

> Deer Valley still has a skier cap and they said that number has not changed. So really no “more busy” there


Have you skied pre and post IKON regularly to say with such definitive “no more busy”???

Or was THAT the “misinformation” that needs clearing up?


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## drjeff (Aug 1, 2019)

abc said:


> Have you skied pre and post IKON regularly to say with such definitive “no more busy”???
> 
> Or was THAT “misinformation” that needs clearing up?


Here's my perspective on this.... As crazy as this sounds, the retired couple from NYC who owns the condo 2 down from mine at Mount Snow, have now spent the last 3 winters (2nd week of December through 3rd week in March) out in Park City. They've had either Deer Valley or IKON passes each year.

When they returned this year, I was talking with the husband (he's quite the crumudgeonly guy on his best days to say the least ;-) ) and when I asked him how his season in Utah was he essentially said "The F#$king cheap IKON pass had Deer Valley with Mount Snow weekend like crowds probably 25 days this season! And the 3 weeks we were in Jackson had more Sh$t show days than regular days trying to get out of the base area!" 

While I have a bunch of GREAT friends/neighbors in my condo complex at Mount Snow for sure, I also have a few of "those" neighbors too! ;-)

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## raisingarizona (Aug 1, 2019)

drjeff said:


> Here's my perspective on this.... As crazy as this sounds, the retired couple from NYC who owns the condo 2 down from mine at Mount Snow, have now spent the last 3 winters (2nd week of December through 3rd week in March) out in Park City. They've had either Deer Valley or IKON passes each year.
> 
> When they returned this year, I was talking with the husband (he's quite the crumudgeonly guy on his best days to say the least ;-) ) and when I asked him how his season in Utah was he essentially said "The F#$king cheap IKON pass had Deer Valley with Mount Snow weekend like crowds probably 25 days this season! And the 3 weeks we were in Jackson had more Sh$t show days than regular days trying to get out of the base area!"
> 
> ...



Jackson has become quite the shit show. There’s plenty of places to go ski that aren’t ikon or epic out there and have plenty of good terrain for the majority of skiers. I’ve known plenty of just ok skiers that think they have to go to Jackson or snowbird but they’d probably be better off going somewhere a lot quieter and with more mid angle terrain.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 1, 2019)

abc said:


> Have you skied pre and post IKON regularly to say with such definitive “no more busy”???
> 
> Or was THAT the “misinformation” that needs clearing up?



You're definitely correct about this.  It's obvious from just chatting up Park City locals, not to mention Deer Valley itself admits as much regarding crowds, even if they wont pin it on IKON, but rather on the great snow year.   

As for having a "cap", that's great, but if you're actually having to ENFORCE said cap on many more days than is typically normal, yeah, that's a significant increase in crowds.   I personally think IKON is a significant driver, not just the awesome snow year, but time shall reveal the truth there.


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## FBGM (Aug 1, 2019)

abc said:


> Have you skied pre and post IKON regularly to say with such definitive “no more busy”???
> 
> Or was THAT the “misinformation” that needs clearing up?



I have skied there a lot pre and post IKOn

Skier cap had stayed the same. No one knows what it is for sure. Some say it’s a moving number. But I think it’s between 6-8k. The difference is before IKON there was much fewer maxed out days. Also, this winter, first with IKON was the best winter in 8 years. Shit popped off. Yeah it was busy. Not all IKON. 

Also The Buck is full of snobs. And it’s great because they don’t ski the goods. And The Buck has lots
Of goods


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## Domeskier (Aug 2, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Jackson has become quite the shit show. There’s plenty of places to go ski that aren’t ikon or epic out there and have plenty of good terrain for the majority of skiers. I’ve known plenty of just ok skiers that think they have to go to Jackson or snowbird but they’d probably be better off going somewhere a lot quieter and with more mid angle terrain.



Harsh, but true.  Like how the tourons from out there come to Manhattan and clog up the streets and subways with their salt-of-the-earth lard, spending 99% of their time horsing down the specials at chain restaurants and staring at their cell phones.  Jersey City has plenty of Olive Gardens, a better view of the skyline and quicker access to the Statue of Liberty.  Much better fit for the majority of them and less inconvenience for the locals.


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## gladerider (Aug 2, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Harsh, but true.  Like how the tourons from out there come to Manhattan and clog up the streets and subways with their salt-of-the-earth lard, spending 99% of their time horsing down the specials at chain restaurants and staring at their cell phones.  Jersey City has plenty of Olive Gardens, a better view of the skyline and quicker access to the Statue of Liberty.  Much better fit for the majority of them and less inconvenience for the locals.



haha. that was funny my friend!


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## abc (Aug 2, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Harsh, but true.  Like how the tourons from out there come to Manhattan and clog up the streets and subways with their salt-of-the-earth lard, spending 99% of their time horsing down the specials at chain restaurants and staring at their cell phones.  Jersey City has plenty of Olive Gardens, a better view of the skyline and quicker access to the Statue of Liberty.  Much better fit for the majority of them and less inconvenience for the locals.


Yeah, but you can't tick that box of "been to New York"

The equivalent of "skied Jackson".


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## Domeskier (Aug 2, 2019)

gladerider said:


> haha. that was funny my friend!



:beer:  I kid, I kid.  Visitors from fly-over country are great - who else is going to keep the fake monks and raggedy elmos busy in Times Square?


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 4, 2019)

Who cares whether someone is right for a mountain - if they want to say they have been there that is cool.  Most skiers and snowboarders only ski two thirds of most resorts.  A place like Jackson Hole is not only about skiing or snowboarding.

BTW New Jersey does not have Times Square or Broadway or dozens of other attractions.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Aug 4, 2019)

dblskifanatic said:


> BTW New Jersey does not have Times Square or Broadway or dozens of other attractions.



I still don't understand the appeal of Times Square as an attraction. Broadway I totally understand though...


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## FBGM (Aug 4, 2019)

I hope Hunter Jersey Shore comes back now. Even tho it got canceled before the 2ed episode and they only aired 4 total. Shit was lit. I miss it.


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## mbedle (Aug 5, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're definitely correct about this.  It's obvious from just chatting up Park City locals, not to mention Deer Valley itself admits as much regarding crowds, even if they wont pin it on IKON, but rather on the great snow year.
> 
> As for having a "cap", that's great, but if you're actually having to ENFORCE said cap on many more days than is typically normal, yeah, that's a significant increase in crowds.   I personally think IKON is a significant driver, not just the awesome snow year, but time shall reveal the truth there.



Pretty sure that the cap only applies to daily lift tickets purchased at the resort, not the season passes, Ikon passes or lift tickets bought online.


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## skiur (Aug 5, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I still don't understand the appeal of Times Square as an attraction. Broadway I totally understand though...



Times square was a lot more interesting in the 70's and 80's, now there is no real reason to be there.


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## 180 (Aug 5, 2019)

skiur said:


> Times square was a lot more interesting in the 70's and 80's, now there is no real reason to be there.



fully agree


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## machski (Aug 5, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Pretty sure that the cap only applies to daily lift tickets purchased at the resort, not the season passes, Ikon passes or lift tickets bought online.


Incorrect, last season anyway without RFID Ikon passholders had to get actual tickets and they WERE subject to the daily cap.  Which is why there was a link to Deer Valley's reservation page for Ikon skiers to reserve their days in advance.  Not sure how it will work with RFID at DV this year, but I would guess as an Ikon guest, you will still need to prereserve days or be subject to the cap (IE RFID gates won't allow you access if they cap out).

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## raisingarizona (Aug 5, 2019)

dblskifanatic said:


> Who cares whether someone is right for a mountain - if they want to say they have been there that is cool.  Most skiers and snowboarders only ski two thirds of most resorts.  A place like Jackson Hole is not only about skiing or snowboarding.
> 
> BTW New Jersey does not have Times Square or Broadway or dozens of other attractions.
> 
> ...



I don’t and none of this was my point and it wasn’t harsh like glade decided to read it. The point is that we don’t have to go to places that are crowded to have really cool ski experiences. I think in this constantly connected social media world we have fooled ourselves that we need to one up our epic moments, sort of keep up with the joneses mentality but we don’t. Personally I think that if we can let go of that sort of thing we might discover some better experiences for ourselves anyways. Being a skiing dad has helped me realize that, I don’t need to take my daughter to Jackson hole to have a fun and memorable trip. We certainly don’t need that much mountain.


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## Jully (Aug 5, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> I don’t and none of this was my point and it wasn’t harsh like glade decided to read it. The point is that we don’t have to go to places that are crowded to have really cool ski experiences. I think in this constantly connected social media world we have fooled ourselves that we need to one up our epic moments, sort of keep up with the joneses mentality but we don’t. Personally I think that if we can let go of that sort of thing we might discover some better experiences for ourselves anyways. Being a skiing dad has helped me realize that, I don’t need to take my daughter to Jackson hole to have a fun and memorable trip. We certainly don’t need that much mountain.



I completely agree and many of those on this board also feel that way. Hell when dblskifanatic went to CO before moving there you went to Ski Cooper, right? It is awesome that on a board like this places like Magic, Bolton Valley, Ski Cooper, and Wildcat get so much attention.

The problem with the big passes is that only the most crowded places tend to get on them and the big passes suck you into only the places on the pass. Prior to Max, I would have a season pass at a local area (the first year Max came out I was a passholder at Ragged) and then skied at a variety of places seeking deals including out west. The smaller places were attractive because they were cheaper when purchasing a package. It was a lot cheaper to go to Tamarack or Schwitzer than it was to go to Sun Valley.

Now with Ikon and Epic it is cheaper to get an AirBnB in Park City and ski DV/PC than to go to Whitefish or Monarch or Purgatory. The Freedom Pass, Powder Alliance, and now Indy pass are fighting back and getting better each year, but you still saw many Peak passholders last year (and Cannon, Sunday River, etc) buy an Epic or Ikon to supplement rather than a Freedom Pass partner.

The fact that EVERY close mountain to SLC and Denver is now on a big pass except Loveland makes it harder to seek independents too. That is a huge shame though as they provide a different experience that is every bit as fulfilling as Jackson or Park City, if not more so.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 5, 2019)

In general, assuming conditions are fine, I would rather ski at Loveland, Plattekill, Magic, or Smuggler's Notch than at a major ski resort.


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## Funky_Catskills (Aug 5, 2019)

skiur said:


> Times square was a lot more interesting in the 70's and 80's, now there is no real reason to be there.



Truth...  Now people go to see Disney shows..  And pose with crusty ass dressed up characters..
I avoid it like the plague..  My company is a couple blocks away..


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## abc (Aug 5, 2019)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Truth...  Now people go to see Disney shows..  And pose with crusty ass dressed up characters..
> I avoid it like the plague..  My company is a couple blocks away..


In the 80's, Time Square was "interesting" because you get to see things you don't see at home. Even if it's not what you like to see, the novelty factor is there. 

No avoiding the sad fact that these "people" are going to Time Square because they don't have crusty ass dressed up characters back home!

 [PS] 
I used to work in one of them big office building that's ON Time Square. I couldn't even avoid those "people". Had to push and shoved my way to get through. Talk about annoying...


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## Funky_Catskills (Aug 5, 2019)

abc said:


> In the 80's, Time Square was "interesting" because you get to see things you don't see at home. Even if it's not what you like to see, the novelty factor is there.
> 
> No avoiding the sad fact that these "people" are going to Time Square because they don't have crusty ass dressed up characters back home!
> 
> ...



right!
I've done business with Viacom at their Times Square building .... it sucks so bad...

When I was a kid - We'd take a bus into Manhattan and ALWAYS walk down 42nd street past - hookers - crack dealers - fake ID stores -bodegas - karate and porn movies..   We survived..  It was cool...


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## mbedle (Aug 5, 2019)

machski said:


> Incorrect, last season anyway without RFID Ikon passholders had to get actual tickets and they WERE subject to the daily cap.  Which is why there was a link to Deer Valley's reservation page for Ikon skiers to reserve their days in advance.  Not sure how it will work with RFID at DV this year, but I would guess as an Ikon guest, you will still need to prereserve days or be subject to the cap (IE RFID gates won't allow you access if they cap out).
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Was the link to reserve their tickets online available last year?


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## abc (Aug 5, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Was the link to reserve their tickets online available last year?


He was talking about last year

What's unclear is whether it'll be the same come this season


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## mbedle (Aug 5, 2019)

abc said:


> He was talking about last year
> 
> What's unclear is whether it'll be the same come this season



If the reserve system was in place last year, then Ikon pass holders wouldn't have be subject to the cap (unless they chose not to reserve their tickets).


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## cdskier (Aug 5, 2019)

mbedle said:


> If the reserve system was in place last year, then Ikon pass holders wouldn't have be subject to the cap (unless they chose not to reserve their tickets).



It was in place this year and based on the following note at the top of the reservation site currently I'd say they plan to use it again:


> 2019-2020 Ikon Pass Holder Reservations Coming Summer 2019


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## abc (Aug 5, 2019)

mbedle said:


> If the reserve system was in place last year, then Ikon pass holders wouldn't have be subject to the cap (unless they chose not to reserve their tickets).


Basically they got priority (they only get 5 or 7 days though)


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