# Mentioning stashes online



## Greg (Aug 30, 2007)

This should get good... :smash:

How do you feel about talking about off-map stashes online? It seems some people want to remain 100% hush about the subject. I really find it hard to believe that subtle references to stashes posted online will significantly increase traffic through them on any given day, but I'm not an exclusive woods skier so what do I know, right?

If I was in the zero tolerance camp I would be a total hypocrite anyway. Given the argument that the mere mentioning of stashes increases traffic in them, then the fact that I started an entire Web site about Northeast skiing makes me especially evil since this site inherently increases skier traffic on and off piste, no?

I am far from a powder snob, and will ski terrain with even the slightest cover without much hesitation. I also could never see myself skiing some stash somewhere that's tracked out and be preoccupied with the fact that other skiers got to it first. I would never think to myself, "dammit, someone must have disclosed this location online!" and let it ruin my run. I just don't think that way.

Nevertheless, I'm *not *advocating the disclosure of _specific _directions to stashes, not that I definitely think it might ruin them, but more out of respect for those that do feel that way. Anyway, I've always thought this was an interesting phenomena and think it's worth discussing/flaming each other over.  I suspect I'm in the minority here so I'm going to take cover now... :-o


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## JimG. (Aug 30, 2007)

I find it incredibly obnoxious when people discuss stashes and keeping them secret because they will be ruined by other people. What, the snowflakes have your name on them? So my enjoyment of "your" line ruins it? Too bad.

But that said, I don't advocate online discussion because it encourages those who are unwise to get into trouble. 

When it comes to unknown (by me) stashes, I prefer to be shown, not told.


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 30, 2007)

Good thread...when I put it in search there were only 176 threads that popped up, 5 got locked up....OMG...I CAN be a smart ass....woo-hoo!


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## thebigo (Aug 30, 2007)

Good topic.

It has always bothered me when people act as if given terrain is privileged information. There is a small percentage of the skiing public that read these boards; the percentage that visit a given area and are willing/able to ski 'off the map' is even smaller. What could it really amount to, one more set of tracks per storm? I just always found the culture of secrecy to go against the culture of skiing.


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## ctenidae (Aug 30, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I find it incredibly obnoxious when people discuss stashes and keeping them secret because they will be ruined by other people. What, the snowflakes have your name on them? So my enjoyment of "your" line ruins it? Too bad.
> 
> But that said, I don't advocate online discussion because it encourages those who are unwise to get into trouble.
> 
> When it comes to unknown (by me) stashes, I prefer to be shown, not told.



I'm with you, to a point. I think people who have found a good stash are entitled to some exclusivity by dint of having expended the time and effort to find it. You earn the right to ski it by making friends and being shown, so that works out.

I would, if I saw one, be annoyed with a braggart who yammered on about "his" secret stashes, though. Mostly because I'd consider anyone who would willingly and intentionally ruin his own stash a moron.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 30, 2007)

It's a free country..if you want to give directions to a secret stash feel free.  When I write trip reports about Stowe..I mention the Goat-dive woods..anybody can figure out that those are the woods between Goat and Nosedive..Same with the Riverbed..which is the frozen stream bed skiers right of Chin-Clip..whatever..

I love exploring the woods but no stash is true-ly secret..the ones that take a little more effort/bushwacking to get to are the best...

On one of my favorite woods shots at Stowe..there were two snowboarders sitting by the entrance and I blew by them to get the freshies and they were pissed..you snooze you lose..

No rules on a powder day...I've definitely stolen first tracks from old ladies before by getting speed in their tracks and blowing by them to get the untracked pow..and I'm a powder glutton..I don't conserve powder at all..I track up as much as possible..


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 30, 2007)

thebigo said:


> Good topic.
> 
> It has always bothered me when people act as if given terrain is privileged information. There is a small percentage of the skiing public that read these boards; the percentage that visit a given area and are willing/able to ski 'off the map' is even smaller. What could it really amount to, one more set of tracks per storm? I just always found the culture of secrecy to go against the culture of skiing.



I feel basically the same way but putting the info online is such a contenscious thing to some I would never do it. The thing that makes me shake my head is that some act like they discovered these stashs when in truth most have been skied for decades. Many of the old timers I know who first skied some of these lines want to share them with others. They want them enjoyed just like it did when they skied them.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 30, 2007)

once you've skied into your secret stash, you've left tracks and its no longer all that secret.  However, I think those discussions belong more on the chairlift with good ski buds than on the web or in the bar with Joey Baggadonuts.


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 30, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> bar with Joey Baggadonuts.



Oh yeah....thats going to kick things up another notch....:lol: :wink:


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 30, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Oh yeah....thats going to kick things up another notch....:lol: :wink:



I can't let Jim have all the fun...and we haven't seen highwaystar around lately...


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 30, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I find it incredibly obnoxious when people discuss stashes and keeping them secret because they will be ruined by other people. What, the snowflakes have your name on them? So my enjoyment of "your" line ruins it? Too bad.
> 
> But that said, I don't advocate online discussion because it encourages those who are unwise to get into trouble.
> 
> When it comes to unknown (by me) stashes, I prefer to be shown, not told.



It almost pains me to type this :wink:, but I completely agree with you.


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## JimG. (Aug 30, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> I can't let Jim have all the fun...and we haven't seen highwaystar around lately...



Ah...he knows me well.


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## JimG. (Aug 30, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> It almost pains me to type this :wink:, but I completely agree with you.



Watch out Skip...next thing you'll be quoting from Jerry Falwell.


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## millerm277 (Aug 30, 2007)

Personally, I think it depends on the stash...if it's a large woods area that's not on the map, but has multiple paths that you can take, I have no problem with mentioning it. Ex: The woods off the right side of xxxxx trail are great.


If it's narrow single line through the woods, I'm not going to tell people online, because, yes...I do consider it "mine", and enjoy having some little path all to myself and getting first (and maybe only) tracks on. 

Ex: If you turn into the woods right after the dead tree, there's an awesome narrow trail through there, but the boulders get exposed after a couple times through.


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## nhski (Aug 30, 2007)

I'm selfish, i won't talk about that stashes i've been to online.  I'll show them to people if i'm skiing with them.


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## JimG. (Aug 30, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> If it's narrow single line through the woods, I'm not going to tell people online, because, yes...I do consider it "mine", and enjoy having some little path all to myself and getting first (and maybe only) tracks on.



What happens if you hike to "your" line and other 4 other skiers have beaten you to it?

I'm skiing it anyway but I get the impression that some folks (not necessarliy you) would pout and curse about it and most likely let it ruin that run.


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## Beetlenut (Aug 30, 2007)

This happened to me on another NE ski forum last year. I asked about how to access a specific stash that someone was talking about, and you'd have thought I personally insulted 20-30 people at once. All kinds of replies came back trashing me and my audacity at asking such a question! The original poster just pm'd me with the info.


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## ajl50 (Aug 30, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with talking about secret lines.  Of course I could have this opinion because I don't have and secret lines.


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## millerm277 (Aug 30, 2007)

JimG. said:


> What happens if you hike to "your" line and other 4 other skiers have beaten you to it?



:uzi:




Just kidding, I'd be a tiny bit annoyed since I spent the hours keeping the brush/saplings down in the off-season, but I'd still ski it if the conditions were fine, first tracks aren't that big of a deal, and I can always find/make another line.


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## darent (Aug 30, 2007)

hey guys, just PM me all those secrets, won't tell a soul,,just like  all those bass holes off of "my" beach, which runs all the way around "my island".


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## ccskier (Aug 30, 2007)

darent said:


> hey guys, just PM me all those secrets, won't tell a soul,,just like  all those bass holes off of "my" beach, which runs all the way around "my island".



yeah, but you have to mean low water at those ''stashes''.  I have also, spoken about certain areas and have been pm'd by people telling me not to say anything.  That time, was about a place that is basically on the Jay map.  There is a limit as to how much info to give.  I personally will keep them to myself.  Too much competition out there already.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Aug 31, 2007)

Is there established etiquette on this?

I mean, let's say I ski Stowe, write up a trip report for this forum and share my "great find" off of a trail.  Would I be breaking some unwritten rules?  Would I be flamed by AZ members?

My feeling is my post would be OK, because no one owns the off-piste runs.  It might be a little annoying for the person who went through the effort to clear the run, but, hey, that person isn't entitled to a personal run on a public mountain.  Sharing comes with the territory, IMHO.

However, it'd be different if someone took the trouble to show me the line.  I probably wouldn't share the info then.


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## nhski (Aug 31, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Is there established etiquette on this?
> 
> I mean, let's say I ski Stowe, write up a trip report for this forum and share my "great find" off of a trail.  Would I be breaking some unwritten rules?  Would I be flamed by AZ members?
> 
> ...



I don't think there are any qualms about sharing stuff online.  I don't do it, like someone else said, the less competition the better.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 31, 2007)

I'm with Greg. I don't get the fact that the mere mention of stashes bothers some people.  Because I know many don't like to disclose locations, I would not disclose locations online for ones that aren't well-known.  I think talking about them with names is perfectly fine though.  I understand to some extent where people are coming from, but I think it's taken too far, and also don't think that it would make a huge difference if locations were posted on a board like this.


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## JD (Aug 31, 2007)

Put your time in and find it yourself.  Anything in between ski trails at a resort can not be considered any one persons.  That being said, if you spent a bunch of days cutting something away from the area, and show some friends, they should repect the fact that you have all the time in and not take people there.  Some lines I only ski with the people who cut them.  If I'm out that way and see it's untracked, I'll ussually go by it, unless I know that that person is in, say Jackson, or Wolf Creek, or Kootnai.  Sorry Steve.  
Sweet line BTW.


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## bobbutts (Aug 31, 2007)

common sense and respect


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## Greg (Jul 21, 2008)

Bump.


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## riverc0il (Jul 21, 2008)

Greg said:


> I really find it hard to believe that subtle references to stashes posted online will significantly increase traffic through them on any given day, but I'm not an exclusive woods skier so what do I know, right?


Yep. Online talk increases traffic. I know this first hand and since experiencing the phenomenon, I have hushed up substantially with even vague illusions let alone names. Now I will post pictures and that is about it. And I am always careful only to post pictures that do not give away too much as some pictures show location pretty clearly. Trust me, there are people out there looking for this sort of thing and I have picked up a lot of information online that I have used to my advantage. I know online chatter increases traffic because I have personally benefited and I know other people are quick to pick up on that sort of information just like I would.



Greg said:


> I would never think to myself, "dammit, someone must have disclosed this location online!" and let it ruin my run.


I would never think that either. Though increased traffic bums me out, I nor any other skier or rider has exclusive rights to a line or area. And if I can't find untracked powder on a powder day, that is my fault for not being quick enough, not being smart enough, or not knowing where to go versus someone else's fault for skiing a well known shot that has been talked about online.

I enjoy the exploration and spending 10 minutes on a run exploring and traversing and finding new stuff. The stuff I personally found was usually more rewarding than the stuff I was shown (with exception of the really good stuff that I was shown that remains relatively unknown). Especially when it took a half dozen "throw away runs" to find something you suspected was there.

There is the safety argument as well. A lot of "stashes" are self selecting. But there are a lot of stashes that don't get difficult until you can't turn back. Disclosing locations of easily accessible stashes to less than sufficiently skilled skiers that other wise would not have known is not a good idea. This isn't to say there is a "club" or anything. I found most lines by searching them out and have only been shown a very small handful of lines by other people, and generally only skiers I have gotten to know and skied with a few times.

In the end, naming a stash online doesn't have much point really. Bragging rights? Whatev. Some trip reporting involves a bit of vanity and story telling and bravado. But what is the real reason for naming a stash? Really?

So I ask this question: Instead of asking why people don't name stashes online, why would you even bother aside from bragging? If you wanted to provide directions, you should assess the skill level of the person involved prior to sending a lemming down a rabbit hole. Of course, snow preservation is also an issue and I won't deny that as a reason not to mention it. But what other reasons are there for mentioning a stash?


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## riverc0il (Jul 21, 2008)

thebigo said:


> There is a small percentage of the skiing public that read these boards; the percentage that visit a given area and are willing/able to ski 'off the map' is even smaller. What could it really amount to, one more set of tracks per storm?


Man, you should see the off map stuff at Jay, lol. A lot more than one more set of tracks, lol.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jul 21, 2008)

I dont tell people, but would be plenty happy to go with them and show.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jul 21, 2008)

Stashes are best left unspoken, and if you ski them, its a good idea to ski with one other person. Most of em are the worst kept secrets, anyway, lol.


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## hardline (Jul 21, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Man, you should see the off map stuff at Jay, lol. A lot more than one more set of tracks, lol.



jay has siphened off a lot of the kids from uvm with the fall of the big pass. great thing for stowe.  anything between trails is fair game i have no problem mentioning them online. as for the slack stuff i will give a starting point and an end point but not the exact line i took to get there. when i meet new people on the hill after a run i may show them some easy to get to stuff but the tougher stuff takes at lest one night of good drinking before i will give up the goods and even then you must traverse witha blindfold. taking a safety meeting right before help to confuse people as well.


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## mattchuck2 (Jul 21, 2008)

I don't see why anyone would mention a stash online.  Like people have said, it invites every moron with an internet connection to you and your buddies' spots.  

Also, if anybody on this board is someone that discloses stashes freely, then I reserve the right to show them absolutely nothing on the next AZ Gore trip (not that I made the first one - or that there was any tree skiing that day anyway).


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## hardline (Jul 21, 2008)

what about these guys just came across this last night
http://www.petracliffs.com/mountaineering_ski.html

or sugarbush doing this

http://www.sugarbush.com/vermont-skiing-snowboarding/mountain-outback-tours


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## eatskisleep (Jul 21, 2008)

I pretty much agree with all of Steve's points in his post. I will only show pictures and won't drop names, if you ski with me and I trust you or know you from skiing with you before, I will show you some of my favorite stashes. 

I can think of a handful of areas that have became so popular in recent years that they aren't as much fun as they used to be, and they get tracked out first chair. It used to be that you could ski the inbounds stuff like lift lines all the fun stuff inbounds stuff, etc. before the other stuff and you could still get first tracks, but now it seems like you gotta head straight to the woods and deep into the woods to get first tracks.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 21, 2008)

http://www.stashpirates.com/index.html :-D

A lot of people in Steamboat are pissed at these guys.


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## snoseek (Jul 21, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> http://www.stashpirates.com/index.html :-D
> 
> A lot of people in Steamboat are pissed at these guys.



I heard about this a couple of times now. The Steamboat locals are kind of weird about their stashes though so I think it's funny as hell.


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## hardline (Jul 21, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> http://www.stashpirates.com/index.html :-D
> 
> A lot of people in Steamboat are pissed at these guys.



the execution is frigin briliant. someone pissed him off and he's right inbetween the trails is fair game. but i cant belive he mad a map. i love the whole pirate thing. now if this hapened at stowe i would lose my shite.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 22, 2008)

hardline said:


> what about these guys just came across this last night
> http://www.petracliffs.com/mountaineering_ski.html
> 
> or sugarbush doing this
> ...



Please.  That involves taking intermediate skiers on guided tours of the known/marked runs in Slide Brook.  That has nothing to do with stashes.


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## dmc (Jul 22, 2008)

The time to talk stashes is when you got skis on your feet.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 22, 2008)

hardline said:


> the execution is frigin briliant. someone pissed him off and he's right inbetween the trails is fair game. but i cant belive he mad a map. i love the whole pirate thing. now if this hapened at stowe i would lose my shite.



He wants to expand. I'm sure he'd pay you to give up the goods. :-D


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## tcharron (Jul 22, 2008)

Post em!  I have YET to see a stash that would be ruined by more then one person.  I'm too lazy to go searching, but at one point I actually got yelled at for poitning some out on these boards.  That just makes me want to share the fun and put up big yellow posterboard signs that say 'Hey, new trails over here!'.


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## powers (Jul 22, 2008)

*So let me ask this....*

....at what point does a "secret stash" become common knowledge? For example I skied some goods way skiers right of the tram at Cannon and found a family of four with kids dropping or should I say falling into the top of the run. Three years ago I could lap my own tracks all day. Is this run now fair game to discuss openly? Go a head, discuss, your live on Cawfee Tawlk............no big whoop.


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## Greg (Jul 22, 2008)

powers said:


> For example I skied some goods way skiers right of the tram at Cannon and found a family of four with kids dropping or should I say falling into the top of the run. Three years ago I could lap my own tracks all day.



And another question is: was this former stash becoming common knowledge due to discussions of it online? How do you really determine that?


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## SnowRider (Jul 22, 2008)

According to Wikipedia 1.407 billion people use the internet, meaning that same amount of people have access to see the stash you post. Once you put something on the internet it is there forever. 

So if you stash isnt tracked out immediatly, give it a couple years. One man sees your post and goes to Jay to ride that secret stash. He loves it and puts it in his blog or posts it on another forum and the chain reaction begins.

Not to mention 9 out of 10 times I try a new stash it fails. If i worked hard, dug myself out of riverbeds, walked a mile through waste deep snow, gashed my board up, is it really fair that one guy can just read where I found my stash and go track it up?

Im all for sharing stashes but do it in person or through a private chat.


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## Phillycore (Jul 22, 2008)

No avg Joe is going online to find out stashes....  If you goto these types of sites more than likely you'll be able to find a lot of them anyway on your own..

Share them if you want, don't if you don't want..

But don't flame someone for sharing something that they want to share cause if it was that special they wouldn't know about it...


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## wa-loaf (Jul 22, 2008)

powers said:


> ....at what point does a "secret stash" become common knowledge? For example I skied some goods way skiers right of the tram at Cannon and found a family of four with kids dropping or should I say falling into the top of the run. Three years ago I could lap my own tracks all day. Is this run now fair game to discuss openly? Go a head, discuss, your live on Cawfee Tawlk............no big whoop.



Isn't that the Kinsman Glade? Or were you further out than that?


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## billski (Jul 22, 2008)

Greg said:


> And another question is: was this former stash becoming common knowledge due to discussions of it online? How do you really determine that?



It only becomes "common knowledge" when it gets a sign or is put on a map.


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## powers (Jul 22, 2008)

*Oh, I was........*



wa-loaf said:


> Isn't that the Kinsman Glade? Or were you further out than that?



See, this is how it starts. What should I say folks?

Choice A: Explain where it is publicly such that someone could get the Beta by searching this forum, thus lessening my and others chances of fresh tracks?

Choice B: PM the info and hope it is not repeated elsewhere.

Choice C: Just say "Why yes, it is" wink, wink. Thus missleading the masses and Wa-loaf.

Choice D: Clam up.


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## billski (Jul 22, 2008)

powers said:


> See, this is how it starts. What should I say folks?
> 
> Choice A: Explain where it is publicly such that someone could get the Beta by searching this forum, thus lessening my and others chances of fresh tracks?
> 
> ...



Choice E - It's to the left of Tuckerman's ravine.


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## Talisman (Jul 22, 2008)

billski said:


> It only becomes "common knowledge" when it gets a sign or is put on a map.



I agree with your rule in general and there are exceptions.  Mittersill is common knowledge but there are no signs or indication on the modern trail map of Cannon.  The minor hike keeps the number of people down, but I have seen out of shape families wheezing up the Taft and seen maybe a dozen people standing around at the view point before dropping into Mittersill.  Even with this pressure there were fresh tracks to be had at Mittersill.


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## riverc0il (Jul 22, 2008)

All I am going to say further about this subject is I have skied down some off map stuff during which I made a bad decision in regards to conditions and could have severely hurt myself. And I knew the fact that said route could be nasty in poor conditions and I made a bad choice. I got out of a bad situation. Two days prior before 6" of snow that helped conditions a little, I was later told someone took the same route and broke some bones (off map solo, just like I was doing). That was knowing the route, having a hunch (a bad one at that) on conditions, and having the skills to get myself out of there safely with only a minor scare. Folks with lesser skills, not knowing the route, or not understanding conditions issues could get themselves into much worse trouble.

Would I give someone directions to where I was? My conscience would not permit it without knowing certain details which means the information does not belong publicly posted. Would I ski with someone, assess their abilities and decision making skills, and show it to them if they were able to handle it? Sure.

I want to really push the safety card here on out of bounds stuff. I know that seems dubious considering my "no tell" position and my powder hound status. But I am less concerned with in bounds stuff between on map runs than I am out of bounds runs. Especially certain areas that have historically racked up search and rescues. And especially areas that could result in injury or fatality if skied during the wrong conditions when things are sketch.

In Northern Vermont, most trees in between trails are hiding something. Period. And that is not a secret, most are plainly visible. Though I think finding it on your own and getting to really know the mountain is more rewarding, I am not going to blow a nutty when someone mentions GoatDive or FallDice. Both are widely discussed online, in the liftline, in the lodge, etc. Not really a secret and highly self selecting from the first turn.

Most skiers that have been doing this for a while are aware of the average recreational skier mentality. Mostly because we have all been there before but we also see it often. At one point in time, I just wanted to ski everything whether or not I had the skills. Dabbling in the in bounds woods between trails is fine for the most part but some people just don't belong in certain areas and there is a real safety aspect to consider. It is really easy to get way over your head when you don't know where you are going and many folks will go knowing something really cool is just on the other side of the ridge and people are raving about it. Same could be said for people with skills but folks that have built up skills and knowledge are also better able and equipped to extract themselves from a bad situation and much more aware of warning signs that things are not right.

Where is the gray line between well known and very openly discussed within bounds tree shots between open runs versus potentially dangerous, high exposure, committing, out of bounds lines with a high degree of difficulty that requires some knowledge or being shown the approach and exit? I don't know. But I don't plan to test the waters either.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 22, 2008)

powers said:


> See, this is how it starts. What should I say folks?
> 
> Choice A: Explain where it is publicly such that someone could get the Beta by searching this forum, thus lessening my and others chances of fresh tracks?
> 
> ...



You can answer anyway you want. Already mentioning it is a give-away. Don't get to Cannon much, so no matter. But if I'm there and the conditions look good, maybe I'll poke around a little more.


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## powers (Jul 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> You can answer anyway you want. Already mentioning it is a give-away. Don't get to Cannon much, so no matter. But if I'm there and the conditions look good, maybe I'll poke around a little more.



Thats the spirit! Flash me the AZ gang sign up there and you will get a tour of the goods. Following tracks into the woods can get you miles away from the mountain if you don't know where you are. Its a loooong walk back if take the wrong left turn. 

Back to my original question, when does a stash become common knowledge and eligible for discussion without the online towns folk bearing torches and pitch forks?


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## hardline (Jul 22, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> He wants to expand. I'm sure he'd pay you to give up the goods. :-D



like i would shoot my self in the foot but i have friends that have threatened to steal my laptop to get a hold of all my google earth maps. i have spend weeks overlaying high res topos. plus there are all my gps tracks and waypoints. its little project that can never see the light of day. the only other people i would share it with are people that have the same knowledge of the area so i could be more acurate.


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## hardline (Jul 22, 2008)

powers said:


> Thats the spirit! Flash me the AZ gang sign up there and you will get a tour of the goods. Following tracks into the woods can get you miles away from the mountain if you don't know where you are. Its a loooong walk back if take the wrong left turn.
> 
> Back to my original question, when does a stash become common knowledge and eligible for discussion without the online towns folk bearing torches and pitch forks?



when the british or canadian gaper on the lift/gondi ask's you about it by name.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 24, 2008)

Why would anybody mention a stash online..it's a stash for a reason..


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## dmc (Jul 24, 2008)

Im pulling the pavement from under my nails
I brush past a garden, dependent on whales
The sloping companion I cast down the ash
Yanked on my tunic and dangled my stash


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## Greg (Jul 24, 2008)




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## dmc (Jul 24, 2008)

Phish used to ski Sugarbush...


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## campgottagopee (Jul 24, 2008)

Back in the 80's we'd go listen this "bar band" named Phish in Burlington all the time. Who'da thunk it


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## dmc (Jul 24, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Back in the 80's we'd go listen this "bar band" named Phish in Burlington all the time. Who'da thunk it



yeah - i happened to be in the Wetlands in NYC when a bunch of burnt out Vermontas first blew my my mind...  From 50 people to 80,000 people...

they done good!


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## awf170 (Jul 24, 2008)

Phillycore said:


> No avg Joe is going online to find out stashes....  If you goto these types of sites more than likely you'll be able to find a lot of them anyway on your own..
> 
> Share them if you want, don't if you don't want..
> 
> But don't flame someone for sharing something that they want to share cause if it was that special they wouldn't know about it...





tcharron said:


> Post em!  I have YET to see a stash that would be ruined by more then one person.  I'm too lazy to go searching, but at one point I actually got yelled at for poitning some out on these boards.  That just makes me want to share the fun and put up big yellow posterboard signs that say 'Hey, new trails over here!'.




I would write some sort of long-winded response but I really don't think it's worth the effort since you two already proved to everyone that you know nothing about woods skiing.


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## tcharron (Jul 24, 2008)

awf170 said:


> I would write some sort of long-winded response but I really don't think it's worth the effort since you two already proved to everyone that you know nothing about woods skiing.



Then don't respond at all if your just going to say, 'Im a prick who gets to ski in supersecret areas, and then go to an online community just so I WONT talk about it..'


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## billski (Jul 25, 2008)

Now, about these alleged things called "stashes"






I know nu-think!


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## dmc (Jul 25, 2008)

awf170 said:


> I would write some sort of long-winded response but I really don't think it's worth the effort since you two already proved to everyone that you know nothing about woods skiing.



wow...  dude...


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 25, 2008)

awf170 said:


> I would write some sort of long-winded response but I really don't think it's worth the effort since you two already proved to everyone that you know nothing about woods skiing.



How does being generous with your knowledge prove you know nothing about woods skiing? This is a perfect example of the elitist BS attitude often put out by “Turn earners” that I can’t stand. I don’t mean to pound on Austin cause I think he’s a good kid. 

At Whiteface not only will I tell people where off the map stuff is, I’ll take them to it if they want. I like to see how happy it makes them that they’re skiing somewhere they didn’t know about.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> How does being generous with your knowledge prove you know nothing about woods skiing? This is a perfect example of the elitist BS attitude often put out by “Turn earners” that I can’t stand. I don’t mean to pound on Austin cause I think he’s a good kid.
> 
> At Whiteface not only will I tell people where off the map stuff is, I’ll take them to it if they want. I like to see how happy it makes them that they’re skiing somewhere they didn’t know about.



I share the same philosophy at places like Stowe where I know of off the map stuff; 90% of which I found by exploring on my own, but just because I went about it that way doesn't mean I feel that others should have to.


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## kingdom-tele (Jul 25, 2008)

can't believe I have been sucked into this

but,  elitist attitudes are not solely held by "turn earners", in fact if you actually went somewhere you had to "earn turns" I think you would find most people are quite jovial,, there is a big difference in lift served backcountry and hiking for turns somewhere unreachable from a lift, arguing on a forum is pointless, but if your only experience with something has been poor maybe you need to look in the mirror first before you generalize a category of people 

and there are no stashes, what you consider a stash has been skied for years, don't whine about not getting firsttracks, go get em, if the line you wanted is skied time to look elsewhere, if you get into something over your head, well, good luck, hopefully you have some respect for the mtns and woods that you went out there prepared, and have a dash of common sense


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## campgottagopee (Jul 25, 2008)

I only ski stashes where people aren't smoking cigs


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## hardline (Jul 26, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I share the same philosophy at places like Stowe where I know of off the map stuff; 90% of which I found by exploring on my own, but just because I went about it that way doesn't mean I feel that others should have to.



at stowe there are soooo many places that are in between trails. that stuff easy and i have no problem showing somebody that stuff but the stuff down into underhill and the notch is a different story. i need to make sure the person has some experience and i can trust them.


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## awf170 (Jul 26, 2008)

Yeah, sorry about being such a complete prick.  Both of those posts just really annoyed me, and I wrote a quick response before going to bed.  I was going to delete the post when I woke up in the morning, but since a bunch of people already quoted it, I just said "screw it" and left it up until I had some free time to respond (now).  But anyway I guess I will now respond in a more civilized manner.



Phillycore said:


> No avg Joe is going online to find out stashes....  If you goto these types of sites more than likely you'll be able to find a lot of them anyway on your own..
> 
> Share them if you want, don't if you don't want..
> 
> But don't flame someone for sharing something that they want to share cause if it was that special they wouldn't know about it...



Average Joe's don't go online and search for stashes, but good woods skiers do.  There are a ton of good woods skiers now, just go to Jay on a powder day and check it out for yourself.  This forum has a lot more (and any other big ski forum) have a ton of lurkers just looking for dropped info.  I know that before I go to a new ski area I search the internet for people dropping hints and directions to stashes, and I bet a lot of people do the same.

Not to be a jerk, but you really must not know NNE well if you think you can just "stumble" apon lots of these stashes.  Most have very small entrances that if you are skiing fast at all you will miss.  Yeah, you can find a decent amount of stashes just by looking around, but you will also end up wasting a good chunk of your day skiing skied out lines, nasty unmaintained lines, and occasionally even hiking out.  And more than likely you will miss all the really good woods lines.



tcharron said:


> Post em!  I have YET to see a stash that would be ruined by more then one person.  I'm too lazy to go searching, but at one point I actually got yelled at for poitning some out on these boards.  That just makes me want to share the fun and put up big yellow posterboard signs that say 'Hey, new trails over here!'.



There are a ton of lines that are so narrow and steep that one skier in front of you will substantially reduce the quality of the run.  Add a few more people in front of you and might be rocky and beat up instead of an epic powder run.  

Also posting something online is not just telling one person, way more people will season, and my guess is at least a few of those people will ski it.  If you want to just tell one person then just PM them the info.  I really have no problem exchanging info via PM, and actually do it a decent amount.  Obviously I wouldn't do it with someone who just joined a week ago, but any member who is trusted and seems like a cool guy (or gal) I'll happily share info with.

Yeah, sorry being such an A-hole...


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 26, 2008)

Personally I think the whole secret stash issue is a whole lot of hooey about nothing. 

Ski midweek, you'll have most of place all to yourselves. 

Riv - how do you know a bunch of the tracks at Jay belong to people who were directed there from online? :wink:

With cell phones I would think the word about a line  in the woods during a busy weekend, would get around pretty fast except at ski hills, like the Bush, where cell coverage is poor for many popular carriers. :wink: Skiing the trees is one of the hot things these days, many are looking for the goods.


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## riverc0il (Jul 26, 2008)

tcharron said:


> Then don't respond at all if your just going to say, 'Im a prick who gets to ski in supersecret areas, and then go to an online community just so I WONT talk about it..'


I think I speak for most "pricks" when I say I would show you a "supersecret" stash if we were skiing together and you had the skills to handle the run. You would be amazed how many folks out there are dieing to show off their knowledge of their mountain.

I once wrote a while back that you only get one "first" time down any run. The only way you can ever re-experience that first run through a particular area is to do it through someone else's eyes. Some of my favorite runs were watching people I ski with experience something for the first time. Generous might be more like it, perhaps.


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## riverc0il (Jul 26, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> How does being generous with your knowledge prove you know nothing about woods skiing? This is a perfect example of the elitist BS attitude often put out by “Turn earners” that I can’t stand. I don’t mean to pound on Austin cause I think he’s a good kid.
> 
> At Whiteface not only will I tell people where off the map stuff is, I’ll take them to it if they want. I like to see how happy it makes them that they’re skiing somewhere they didn’t know about.


HPD... care to share some Whiteface knowledge here on AZ in this thread?


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## riverc0il (Jul 26, 2008)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Riv - how do you know a bunch of the tracks at Jay belong to people who were directed there from online? :wink:


I don't think I specifically said that and I apologize for the implication if it was read that way (though I know for fact one particular area has been bragged at substantially online and well.... let's face it, how many rescues have to happen before people take going OB seriously after hearing about a cool OB run?). I think my suggest about tracked out woods at Jay was simply to say there are a ton of powder hound tree skiers out there just looking for the next untracked line. To suggest there wouldn't be more tracks or snow tracked up faster if specifics were dropped online is fool hardy. It took me any where from one to four dozen days skiing Jay to identify various "stashes" and I am still missing a few to be sure. Had that info been posted online at some point, I would have known them from day one and so would (what I think is a safe assumption) hundreds of other tree skiing powder hounds. There is no specific proof because no one is standing at the t'wack to get in entrance with a clip board taking a poll. But I think it is self evident that a forum that gets as many hits as AZ does having unnamed routes posted would substantially increase traffic.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 27, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> You would be amazed how many folks out there are dieing to show off their knowledge of their mountain.
> 
> .



I love being a tourguide.  One of my favorite days last season at Jackson Hole was a day I spent skiing with a a guy from my bus who was at J-Hole for the first time.  Although it wasn't a powder day...we skied lots of knee deep shots 3 days after the last snowstorm.  Really cool tree runs that I had skied several times were even better because I was seeing it through his eyes.  At Stowe I always used to enjoy taking people into some of my favorite places..nothing like doing a little bushwacking and being rewarded with an untracked line or at least some solitude.  But again...why would anybody give away stashes online...it makes no sense...


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## hardline (Jul 28, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I love being a tourguide.  One of my favorite days last season at Jackson Hole was a day I spent skiing with a a guy from my bus who was at J-Hole for the first time.  Although it wasn't a powder day...we skied lots of knee deep shots 3 days after the last snowstorm.  Really cool tree runs that I had skied several times were even better because I was seeing it through his eyes.  At Stowe I always used to enjoy taking people into some of my favorite places..nothing like doing a little bushwacking and being rewarded with an untracked line or at least some solitude.  But again...why would anybody give away stashes online...it makes no sense...



being a tour guide is always fun plus you have someone to share in your exploration.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 30, 2008)

Anyone who thinks that mentioning stashes online, other than the most obvious ones, has no impact on the traffic those runs see is someone who doesn't ski in the trees that often, and therefore unqualified to judge.  I never mentioned any online, but I've pointed a few out, including those I've created myself, to people I met online.  I thought these guys were cool and would agree to keep it low profile, as they promised.  Lo and behold, they told their friends, who told their friends and so on - tis isn't speculation but is confirmed, and I suspect is a microcosm of most such situations.  What had been an out of the way, and infrequently skied run is now commonly tracked up early and often (yeah, I did some good work).  Heck, I do a LOT of work trying to find runs on my own, and when I do, I'm usually getting in there with my posse thereafter, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  Why lower the bar?

Tree runs, especially ones that are not blindingly obvious, tend to be able to accommodate no more than 5-6 skiers before the quality of the run is significantly degraded until the next snowfall.  All it takes is one persone to figure out where a formerly lightly tracked run is, and he will almost certainly bring in his ski buddies, and so on.  As RiverC pointed out, this isn't just a snow surfaces issue, it's a safety issue as well.  If you spend time learnign the ins and outs of a place, you tend to have a knowledge of the dangers therein and accordingly come adequately prepared.  This view is buttressed by the observation that most humans will be inclined to respect and preserve things that they've earned much more than those which they've been given. If you want to call it elitism, be my guest, but you're just a sheep that doesn't know better.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 30, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Anyone who thinks that mentioning stashes online, other than the most obvious ones, has no impact on the traffic those runs see is someone who doesn't ski in the trees that often, and therefore unqualified to judge.  I never mentioned any online, but I've pointed a few out, including those I've created myself, to people I met online.  I thought these guys were cool and would agree to keep it low profile, as they promised.  Lo and behold, they told their friends, who told their friends and so on - tis isn't speculation but is confirmed, and I suspect is a microcosm of most such situations.  What had been an out of the way, and infrequently skied run is now commonly tracked up early and often (yeah, I did some good work).  Heck, I do a LOT of work trying to find runs on my own, and when I do, I'm usually getting in there with my posse thereafter, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  Why lower the bar?
> 
> Tree runs, especially ones that are not blindingly obvious, tend to be able to accommodate no more than 5-6 skiers before the quality of the run is significantly degraded until the next snowfall.  All it takes is one persone to figure out where a formerly lightly tracked run is, and he will almost certainly bring in his ski buddies, and so on.  As RiverC pointed out, this isn't just a snow surfaces issue, it's a safety issue as well.  If you spend time learnign the ins and outs of a place, you tend to have a knowledge of the dangers therein and accordingly come adequately prepared.  This view is buttressed by the observation that most humans will be inclined to respect and preserve things that they've earned much more than those which they've been given. If you want to call it elitism, be my guest, but you're just a sheep that doesn't know better.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings.



Speaking for myself a condescending blowhard like you could never hurt my feelings because I don't care what you think. Guys like you who come on forums and spout about what they know is right and wrong about something like showing people where stashes are crack me up. It ain’t war and peace dude, it’s skiing. 

If you want to show someone where a stash is show them, if you don’t then don’t. If something gets tracked out sooner then later so what? It’ll snow again. I hope keeping your stashes secret is your biggest worry in life.

Looking forward to your rambling rebuttal.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 30, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Speaking for myself a condescending blowhard like you could never hurt my feelings because I don't care what you think. Guys like you who come on forums and spout about what they know is right and wrong about something like showing people where stashes are crack me up. It ain’t war and peace dude, it’s skiing.
> 
> If you want to show someone where a stash is show them, if you don’t then don’t. If something gets tracked out sooner then later so what? It’ll snow again. I hope keeping your stashes secret is your biggest worry in life.
> 
> Looking forward to your rambling rebuttal.



1) It's not war and peace

2) It's far from my biggest worry in life

3) If I had the luxury of skiing whenever I wanted, I probably wouldn't care as much.

4) It is the truth, which you apparently can't handle.

5) If you didn't care what I think, then why take the time to respond?  Me thinks ye doth protest too much.

Hope that wasn't too rambling for you.


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## AdironRider (Jul 30, 2008)

This is a stupid argument.  If I show them a stash, I assume theyre going to show a couple people as well, and so on and so forth. The stash wont ever be the same. The whole notion of keeping a stash totally secret is pretty much unrealistic anyways. 

That being said, I doubt Id ever tell someone about a cool place to ride at Jackson either online or via pm. If I ski/ride with you a bit, think you're cool, then Ill show you. Thats just my perogitive. 

Also, the whole safety reasoning people are spouting is complete BS. The tree run becomes unsafe? Seriously? If any glades are open on the hill you cant use the safety argument at all. So one section of woods can handle all the skier traffic being on the map can handle, but your stash in the woods cant? Doubt it.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 30, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> 4) It is the truth, which you apparently can't handle.



Just cause it’s your opinion doesn’t make it the truth, but I can see how a guy like you wouldn’t understand the difference.



Tin Woodsman said:


> 5) If you didn't care what I think, then why take the time to respond?  Me thinks ye doth protest too much.



It’s because of posts like this.



Tin Woodsman said:


> . If you want to call it elitism, be my guest, but you're just a sheep that doesn't know better.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings.



Many of your post have a tone of arrogance and talking down to those who don’t agree with you. For seem reason only Greg seems to call you on it and everyone else gives you a pass. I won’t when you start with me.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 30, 2008)

Tin Woodsman..if you show somebody your stash..it becomes their stash...lol..


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## mattchuck2 (Jul 30, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Speaking for myself a condescending blowhard like you could never hurt my feelings because I don't care what you think. Guys like you who come on forums and spout about what they know is right and wrong about something like showing people where stashes are crack me up. It ain’t war and peace dude, it’s skiing.
> 
> If you want to show someone where a stash is show them, if you don’t then don’t. If something gets tracked out sooner then later so what? It’ll snow again. I hope keeping your stashes secret is your biggest worry in life.
> 
> Looking forward to your rambling rebuttal.



I'm still looking for the WF stashes that you apparently have no problem posting . . .

Go ahead . . .


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## hardline (Jul 30, 2008)

all this talk about stashes is makin me itch to go light a fatty.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Just cause it’s your opinion doesn’t make it the truth, but I can see how a guy like you wouldn’t understand the difference.


Really?  How long have you been skiing in the woods?  Assuming you do it somewhat regularly for over 2-3 season, it is unquestionable that traffic in the woods has increased across the board.  This is not my opinion.  Ski resorts clearly believe this to be the case, which is why they are opening a lot more gladed terrain in recent years to cater to this demand. Do you dispute this?

You know what's grown just as quickly?  Al Gore's Internet.  This very thread has received over 1600 views and counting.  If you ski in the woods, you know how few people it takes to trash a run.  All it takes is one,  because of their friends, and then their friends etc..  

What evidence do you have that disclosing stashes online has no noticeable impact on the traffic in said areas?  Would you be willing to back up said claims by revealing here on this board your 10 favorite, relatively unknown stashes at Whiteface?  If not, then you're pretty much full of shit, right?




> Many of your post have a tone of arrogance and talking down to those who don’t agree with you. For seem reason only Greg seems to call you on it and everyone else gives you a pass. I won’t when you start with me.


So you responded b/c you've got some sort of teenage obsession with the tone of my posts, but don't really have anything to add to the actual discussion.  Glad we're clear on that.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> That being said, I doubt Id ever tell someone about a cool place to ride at Jackson either online or via pm. If I ski/ride with you a bit, think you're cool, then Ill show you. Thats just my perogitive.


Well that's kind of my point.  I learned the hard way that revealing something to a "sort of" internet friend isn't wise, and that in the future I should get to know someone better before divulging.  Telling the world on the internet is pretty much the opposite of that philosophy, no?



> Also, the whole safety reasoning people are spouting is complete BS. The tree run becomes unsafe? Seriously? If any glades are open on the hill you cant use the safety argument at all. So one section of woods can handle all the skier traffic being on the map can handle, but your stash in the woods cant? Doubt it.


I think you've completely misunderstood the safety angle.  Would it be responsible to show someone the stashes in Slide Brook if you have no idea of their level of preparedness?  what about Big Jay, or the back side of K, or the Notch/back side at Stowe?  It's cold and lonely out there if you get lost or hurt, and it's pretty unlikely that a patroller is going to be sauntering through any time soon.  Skiing Toilet Bowl at K, just to cite one well known example, isn't the same thing now is it?


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 31, 2008)

starring Tin Woodsman
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=30647

carry on


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> HPD... care to share some Whiteface knowledge here on AZ in this thread?





mattchuck2 said:


> I'm still looking for the WF stashes that you apparently have no problem posting . . .
> 
> Go ahead . . .





highpeaksdrifter said:


> At Whiteface not only will I tell people where off the map stuff is, I’ll take them to it if they want. I like to see how happy it makes them that they’re skiing somewhere they didn’t know about.





highpeaksdrifter said:


> If you want to show someone where a stash is show them, if you don’t then don’t.



I won't post them, but I'll show anyone at WF the ones I know. Different people showed me over time and I always appreciated it. If you guys don't want to then that's your business. I just believe in sharing the wealth. Not everyone feels that way and that's ok too,


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Really?  How long have you been skiing in the woods?  Assuming you do it somewhat regularly for over 2-3 season, it is unquestionable that traffic in the woods has increased across the board.  This is not my opinion.  Ski resorts clearly believe this to be the case, which is why they are opening a lot more gladed terrain in recent years to cater to this demand. *Do you dispute this?*



No I don't dispute it. That just proves that they realize people enjoy skiing in the trees and they what to provide that terrain for them. You want to keep it for yourself.



Tin Woodsman said:


> What evidence do you have that disclosing stashes online has no noticeable impact on the traffic in said areas?  Would you be willing to back up said claims by revealing here on this board your 10 favorite, relatively unknown stashes at Whiteface?  If not, then you're pretty much full of shit, right?



I don't have evidence and never said I did. What evidence do you have that it does? It's also not like I'm holding up a sign offering tours in the parking lot either. Years ago at Smuggs I asked a simple question about the Back Bowls there to a local and he rudely blew me off. I found out what I wanted to know from a bartender that night, but the exchange with the other left a bad taste in my mouth. I just don't like being treated like that so I don't treat others that way.

I don't know 10 at WF, but the ones I do know I'd share with anyone I meet there. 



Tin Woodsman said:


> So you responded b/c you've got some sort of teenage obsession with the tone of my posts, but don't really have anything to add to the actual discussion.  Glad we're clear on that.



Why is not wanting to be talked down to a teenage obsession?


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> It's a free country..if you want to give directions to a secret stash feel free.
> ..





GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Tin Woodsman..if you show somebody your stash..it becomes their stash...lol..



same thread, same you...which is it?


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> same thread, same you...which is it?



I don't know..my opinion always changes..lol..and Tin Woodsman is more of a tool than you..lol


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I don't know..my opinion always changes..lol..



Fair enough, opinions can change.



GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> and Tin Woodsman is more of a tool than you..lol



Thanks....I think.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> No I don't dispute it. That just proves that they realize people enjoy skiing in the trees and they what to provide that terrain for them. You want to keep it for yourself.


No - I'm just not advocating sharing stashesin a public forum, which is, ya know, kind of the subject of this thread.



> I don't have evidence and never said I did. What evidence do you have that it does? It's also not like I'm holding up a sign offering tours in the parking lot either. Years ago at Smuggs I asked a simple question about the Back Bowls there to a local and he rudely blew me off. I found out what I wanted to know from a bartender that night, but the exchange with the other left a bad taste in my mouth. I just don't like being treated like that so I don't treat others that way.
> 
> I don't know 10 at WF, but the ones I do know I'd share with anyone I meet there.


That does sound a bit rude - but what does it have to do with the topic of this thread?



> Why is not wanting to be talked down to a teenage obsession?



Did I even address you?  I was addressing the issue, and you felt compelled to come in and start trash talking even though your personal practice on the subject apparently jibes with mine.  That's stalker level creepy.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

ski_resort_observer said:


> starring Tin Woodsman
> http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=30647
> 
> carry on



Thanks for your contribution.  Aah memories.  

Please go back to sticking your head in the sand b/c, as a local who can ski just about any time midweek, this subject really doesn't have as much relevance for you.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 31, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Thanks for your contribution.  Aah memories.
> 
> Please go back to sticking your head in the sand b/c, as a local who can ski just about any time midweek, this subject really doesn't have as much relevance for you.



This is actually one of those myths that we kinda of chuckle about. In peak season we really have to work hard to find time to ski as many of us are working 6 days/week. If you have an on- mountain job that's diferent. Honestly, if I have a day off sometimes I have no interest in being at the resort, might go x-country skiing, might just relax at my humble abode.

I posted  the ES link cause it's obvious your passionate about this issue. 

BTW, they are going to be starting soon the expansion of the Castlerock Pub, if you want some pics I'm sure either Lostone or I could throw some up from time to time. Blue Tooth is gone and the construction of the affordable apartment buildings  well under way.

If we could only bring back some of those old RSN threads  :lol:


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

ski_resort_observer said:


> This is actually one of those myths that we kinda of chuckle about. In peak season we really have to work hard to find time to ski as many of us are working 6 days/week. If you have an on- mountain job that's diferent. Honestly, if I have a day off sometimes I have no interest in being at the resort, might go x-country skiing, might just relax at my humble abode.
> 
> I posted  the ES link cause it's obvious your passionate about this issue.
> 
> ...



Well yeah, I am passionate about it b/c I've seen the increased traffic and I've seen clueless people back in Slide Brook, or in the ravine near the headwaters of Clay Brook who were lost, scared, and completely unprepared.  There is no upside to sharing stashes online.

As for the Pub - if I just keep running my mouth, maybe people will listen to me!  Seriously, I caught a lot of flack for that in SkiMRV as an alleged "whiner", and yet it's getting done.  I'm sure my comments had about 0.00000001% to do with it (and that's probably being generous), but the need was clear as day.  Would love to see the pics when you've got them.


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## tjf67 (Jul 31, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> HPD... care to share some Whiteface knowledge here on AZ in this thread?



Come on over and I will show you everything whiteface has to offer.  Posting stashes is OK in my book but personally I would not follow them without someone who knows it with me.  There are pricks that would send you off into a hollow and waste my whole day packing out.  BTW whiteface has no stashes.


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## tjf67 (Jul 31, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Anyone who thinks that mentioning stashes online, other than the most obvious ones, has no impact on the traffic those runs see is someone who doesn't ski in the trees that often, and therefore unqualified to judge.  I never mentioned any online, but I've pointed a few out, including those I've created myself, to people I met online.  I thought these guys were cool and would agree to keep it low profile, as they promised.  Lo and behold, they told their friends, who told their friends and so on - tis isn't speculation but is confirmed, and I suspect is a microcosm of most such situations.  What had been an out of the way, and infrequently skied run is now commonly tracked up early and often (yeah, I did some good work).  Heck, I do a LOT of work trying to find runs on my own, and when I do, I'm usually getting in there with my posse thereafter, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  Why lower the bar?
> 
> Tree runs, especially ones that are not blindingly obvious, tend to be able to accommodate no more than 5-6 skiers before the quality of the run is significantly degraded until the next snowfall.  All it takes is one persone to figure out where a formerly lightly tracked run is, and he will almost certainly bring in his ski buddies, and so on.  As RiverC pointed out, this isn't just a snow surfaces issue, it's a safety issue as well.  If you spend time learnign the ins and outs of a place, you tend to have a knowledge of the dangers therein and accordingly come adequately prepared.  This view is buttressed by the observation that most humans will be inclined to respect and preserve things that they've earned much more than those which they've been given. If you want to call it elitism, be my guest, but you're just a sheep that doesn't know better.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings.



I believe cutting your own stashes is against the law.  Shame on you!!!


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> I believe cutting your own stashes is against the law.  Shame on you!!!



Not if you have permission of the land owner.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Did I even address you?  I was addressing the issue, and you felt compelled to come in and start trash talking even though your personal practice on the subject apparently jibes with mine.  That's stalker level creepy.



What the fu#k are you talking about? Post #87 you where addressing me on the teenage obession thing. So now you have to call me a stalker and acting creepy. You can't have a debate of an issue, you have to resort to BS like this when someone disagrees with you. UR an asshole.

Tell you what I'll never respond to anything you post and you do the same for me.


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## tjf67 (Jul 31, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Not if you have permission of the land owner.



Assuming the land owner has permission.


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## 2knees (Jul 31, 2008)

i knew this thread would deliver.


now if we could just talk about secret stashes at killington that dont allow snowboards.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> What the fu#k are you talking about? Post #87 you where addressing me on the teenage obession thing. So now you have to call me a stalker and acting creepy. You can't have a debate of an issue, you have to resort to BS like this when someone disagrees with you. UR an asshole.
> 
> Tell you what I'll never respond to anything you post and you do the same for me.



Whatever works for you.  Look at the chronology here.  I posted my opinion on the the subject (post #79 to be exact), addressing no one in particular.  You felt compelled to respond an our later with a broadside directed at me rather than the issue being discussed.  You have continued to argue against the person rather than the issue at hand, where apparently we aren't really far apart at all.  

Given these facts, I'm not sure how a reasonable person could conclude differently from what I have.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> Assuming the land owner has permission.



Naturally.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> If you want to call it *elitism,* be my guest, but you're just a sheep that doesn't know better.  Sorry if that hurts your feelings.





Tin Woodsman said:


> Whatever works for you.  Look at the chronology here.  I posted my opinion on the the subject (post #79 to be exact), addressing no one in particular.  .



Because I was the one who used the term *elitist* in the thread so I *WRONGLY *thought you where aiming your sheep comment at me. 

I just want this to end I can't stand the pointless bickering (that I am half responsible for) anymore.

I tell people where off the map stuff is, you do not. It doesn't make one of us right and one wrong. We just have different points of view in this matter.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Because I was the one who used the term *elitist* in the thread so I *WRONGLY *thought you where aiming your sheep comment at me.
> 
> I just want this to end I can't stand the pointless bickering (that I am half responsible for) anymore.
> 
> I tell people where off the map stuff is, you do not. It doesn't make one of us right and one wrong. We just have different points of view in this matter.



I'm cool with that.  I had seen the word "elitism" thrown around, but there were some other terms used as well and I have no idea who used what.  Might as well have picked out of a hat.

As for the your last point, as I've stated repeatedly, I don't have a problem sharing this stuff in person under the right circumstances, I just object to those who think it's appropriate to do so online for every random Dick and Jane out there, which is the subject of this thread.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Years ago at Smuggs I asked a simple question about the Back Bowls there to a local and he rudely blew me off. I found out what I wanted to know from a bartender that night, but the exchange with the other left a bad taste in my mouth. I just don't like being treated like that so I don't treat others that way.



Ah crap, what year HPD, just hopin it wasn't me8)


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Ah crap, what year HPD, just hopin it wasn't me8)



It was the epic year of 2001, late season, the night we arrived they got 18 inches on top of a 450 inch base. My oldest son and I where jazzed to say the least. Sat. after some great runs on Madonna we decided to head for Sterling where a skier we talked to in line had told us the Back Bowls where sick and we needed to check them out. 

When we got up the lift we asked the first guy we see if he would be kind enough to just point us in the general direction of the Back Bowls. The guy gives me a dirty look and says if I don't know where they are I probably don't belong there. Then he turns and skis away. 

We found our way by ourselves and had a blast. That night a bartender gave us some more tips. That other guy was a real prick though. I really dislike people of that ilk.


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## billski (Jul 31, 2008)

I am happy to disclose my college stash.

I would stash all my dirty clothes in a box when they were extra-ripe, bring them home for Mom to clean at the holidays.
I think my dorm room was condemned and they had to tear down the walls, ceiling and carpet after I left.........


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 31, 2008)

billski said:


> I am happy to disclose my college stash.
> 
> I would stash all my dirty clothes in a box when they were extra-ripe, bring them home for Mom to clean at the holidays.
> I think my dorm room was condemned and they had to tear down the walls, ceiling and carpet after I left.........



Sounds like the apartment I lived in Senior year....when my parents visited me from graduation they were like,"I can't believe you live like this"...7 years later and it's pretty similar...

Anyway...Switchback at Blue mountain is good..don't tell anybody...lol


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## campgottagopee (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> It was the epic year of 2001, late season, the night we arrived they got 18 inches on top of a 450 inch base. My oldest son and I where jazzed to say the least. Sat. after some great runs on Madonna we decided to head for Sterling where a skier we talked to in line had told us the Back Bowls where sick and we needed to check them out.
> 
> When we got up the lift we asked the first guy we see if he would be kind enough to just point us in the general direction of the Back Bowls. The guy gives me a dirty look and says if I don't know where they are I probably don't belong there. Then he turns and skis away.
> 
> We found our way by ourselves and had a blast. That night a bartender gave us some more tips. That other guy was a real prick though. I really dislike people of that ilk.



Twernt me, I left those stompin' grounds in 90.....Seriously, that kinda stuff sucks and not only would I have pointed them out but I would've taken you in. Not only am I sorry you had that experience there, but I'm also surprised because usually that place has a real mello vibe to it. Glad you found a cool bartender---were you at the Brewski???


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 31, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Twernt me, I left those stompin' grounds in 90.....Seriously, that kinda stuff sucks and not only would I have pointed them out but I would've taken you in. Not only am I sorry you had that experience there, but I'm also surprised because usually that place has a real mello vibe to it. Glad you found a cool bartender---were you at the Brewski???



It was the bar in the condo village they have there. Is that the Brewski?


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## campgottagopee (Jul 31, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> It was the bar in the condo village they have there. Is that the Brewski?



Nope, there are several bars in the Village most likely you were in the "Snow Snake". The Brewski is on the mountain rd (skiers left heading up) just before the main entrance to the village. You'll have to check it out next time you're up there---it's a good local spot.


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## hardline (Jul 31, 2008)

i have maybe done 4 or 5 days at smuggs. the lifts where to slow for me. it was as pico is to killington. it just gets lost in mansfield's shadow.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 31, 2008)

hardline said:


> i have maybe done 4 or 5 days at smuggs. the lifts where to slow for me. it was as pico is to killington. it just gets lost in mansfield's shadow.



Agree---nothing good at Smuggs at all...stay away from Smuggs....bad Smuggs...bad:wink:

Dang, almost forgot---stay away from Whiteface too---place stinks and Gore blows as well


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## hardline (Jul 31, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> stay away from Smuggs....bad Smuggs...bad:wink:



i just got a strange image of mansfield yelling at smuggs for being bad. this was all in some sort of cartoon world. i am a bit odd.


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## riverc0il (Aug 1, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> HPD... care to share some Whiteface knowledge here on AZ in this thread?


So... dare I ask again after that earlier response to Tin Woodsman? 

EDIT: Just noticed your response.



			
				HPD said:
			
		

> I won't post them, but I'll show anyone at WF the ones I know. Different people showed me over time and I always appreciated it. If you guys don't want to then that's your business. I just believe in sharing the wealth. Not everyone feels that way and that's ok too,


Fair enough and I think that is what most folks are saying here. There are various levels of stashes and a majority of them I would show to most people I skied with in person. I try to be honorable in cases like Tin Woodsman's example. I have been asked to keep stuff secret in two cases and have not shown a soul. I would imagine most woods skiers would share more than they would not share in person.

But online? HPD, it seems like you are actually in agreement with most in this thread about not doing it online. Which is all I wanted to clarify because your earlier comments may have suggested otherwise.


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## riverc0il (Aug 1, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Also, the whole safety reasoning people are spouting is complete BS. The tree run becomes unsafe? Seriously? If any glades are open on the hill you cant use the safety argument at all. So one section of woods can handle all the skier traffic being on the map can handle, but your stash in the woods cant? Doubt it.


As I mentioned before, I am less concerned with in bounds runs between existing trails than I am about out of bounds runs. Also, there are a lot of chutes even within bounds that are no more than 4-5 feet wide which can not exactly be compared to other in bounds tree runs.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 1, 2008)

hardline said:


> i have maybe done 4 or 5 days at smuggs. the lifts where to slow for me. it was as pico is to killington. it just gets lost in mansfield's shadow.



times two..I'm all about high speed lifts..plus Smuggs doesn't seem to hold snow as well as Stowe..


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## mattchuck2 (Aug 1, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> But online? HPD, it seems like you are actually in agreement with most in this thread about not doing it online. Which is all I wanted to clarify because your earlier comments may have suggested otherwise.



Yeah, I got that impression, too . . . Which is why I asked . . .

But looking back at the thread, I can't find the post that gave me that idea . . .weird.



Also, I think that someone should highlight the difference between taking some people you know to your stashes, and telling random people on the mountain where your stashes are.

If some random person came up to me at Gore and said "Where's Highline?" I'd tell him to piss off, much in the same way that that dude at Smugg's told HPD to piss off.  If I know you, and I'm skiing with you, than of course I'll show you.  But if it's just some random skier, than no way.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 1, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> So... dare I ask again after that earlier response to Tin Woodsman?
> 
> EDIT: Just noticed your response.
> 
> ...



I guess it’s a 6 of 1 half dozen of the other situation that I can’t come to grips with myself.. If you where going to WF and wanted to know where something off the map was, and I couldn’t be there that day to show you, I’d PM you with the info you needed. I would not post a reply on the open forum, even though no one else would probably be interested. I’m not sure what the difference is, but posting it would just feel weird to me.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 1, 2008)

mattchuck2 said:


> If some random person came up to me at Gore and said "Where's Highline?" I'd tell him to piss off, much in the same way that that dude at Smugg's told HPD to piss off.  If I know you, and I'm skiing with you, than of course I'll show you.  But if it's just some random skier, than no way.



Why be unnecessarily rude to people? If you don’t want to share your knowledge why not just tell them you don’t know the answer instead of telling them to piss off. Random skiers like to be treated with simple respect too.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 2, 2008)

mattchuck2 said:


> If some random person came up to me at Gore and said "Where's Highline?" I'd tell him to piss off, much in the same way that that dude at Smugg's told HPD to piss off.  If I know you, and I'm skiing with you, than of course I'll show you.  But if it's just some random skier, than no way.



Whaa??? Why be a jackoff about it----just tell 'em you don't have a clue what they are talking about and move on quitely. Pissin' folks off....nothing good comes out of that.....just sayin'


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## campgottagopee (Aug 2, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Why be unnecessarily rude to people? If you don’t want to share your knowledge why not just tell them you don’t know the answer instead of telling them to piss off. Random skiers like to be treated with simple respect too.
> .



Sorry chuck, should've read farther down....HPD already expressed my opinion...


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## Greg (Aug 2, 2008)

This thread proves exactly why there is not one AZer that I can think of that has actually skied with Tin Woodsman. If he's anything like this in real life, I wouldn't enjoy skiing with him either.


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## ski220 (Aug 2, 2008)

My two cents?  

After reading post #79 I would have to say that it was a well stated personal view point ON SUBJECT.  

The reply by HPD became immediatly combative and confrontational with unneeded name calling.  

If anyone here hasn't noticed the proliferation of yahoos on fat skies and snowboards ruining  previously pristine  OB runs, then they haven't the long term experience to comment.  

Yes, I am a powder snob and an elitist.


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## ski220 (Aug 2, 2008)

Of course as soon as you make that first track you have effectivlly opened the door for others to follow.


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## AdironRider (Aug 2, 2008)

ski220 said:


> My two cents?
> 
> After reading post #79 I would have to say that it was a well stated personal view point ON SUBJECT.
> 
> ...




Either get there earlier or deal with it. Unless its property you own, you have no right to the run just as much as the next guy. Fat skis and snowboards ruin the run? Come on....the only thing that ruins a run is having to deal with snobs and elitists like you.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 2, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Either get there earlier or deal with it. Unless its property you own, you have no right to the run just as much as the next guy. Fat skis and snowboards ruin the run? Come on....the only thing that ruins a run is having to deal with snobs and elitists like you.



times 2


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## Moe Ghoul (Aug 2, 2008)

Pretty amusing thread. Has anyone considered that if its OB, the resort owners don't want folks in that area to begin with unless its posted? Is your stash in a permitted ski area? If not, it's hard to argue stash ediquette when it's not allowed by the resort to begin with. Kinda like jumping in a strangers backyard pool and then arguing if its cool or not to invite some friends over.


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## Greg (Aug 4, 2008)

ski220 said:


> Yes, I am a powder snob and an elitist.



Powder snobbery is a philosophy that is simply so foreign to me. I love good snow conditions as much as the next guy, but the day I start nitpicking the surface should be the day I hang up the skis. I'll ski on any old crap - it makes the high quality days seem that much better. But to each his own.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 4, 2008)

ski220 said:


> If anyone here hasn't noticed the proliferation of yahoos on fat skies and snowboards ruining  previously pristine  OB runs, then they haven't the long term experience to comment.



Are you suggesting that anyone on powder skis is a yahoo?  I tend to see more yahoos on carving or midfat skis that venture off into the woods or deep snow and end up floundering while the solid skiers are more likely the ones on fat skis and ripping it up.  
(its SKIS by the way, not SKIES...makes me question your long tern experience if you can't spell the plural of ski)


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## RENO (Aug 4, 2008)

Greg said:


> This thread proves exactly why there is not one AZer that I can think of that has actually skied with Tin Woodsman. If he's anything like this in real life, I wouldn't enjoy skiing with him either.



Tin is a friend to all on AZone and KZone! :razz:  I can see someone following him into one of his double secret stashes as he wipes out and steal one of his skis and just leaves him there! :lol: Tin is a D-bag. 

This isn't war, it's skiing/snowboarding for christ's sake! We're there to have fun, aren't we? I go to the mountains to get away from jerkoff's that I usually have to deal with in the working world. I don't want to deal with them on the mountain too...

Also, the idea of a secret stash in the East is kinda funny. Do people mean those *super secret stashes* that have about 100 deep trenched ski/snowboard tracks at the entrance to them?  :lol:


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## Greg (Aug 4, 2008)

Not sure where you live RENO, but we should take a spin on the MTB someday. You seem like an all right dude, one that doesn't take things too seriously...


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2008)

Greg said:


> This thread proves exactly why there is not one AZer that I can think of that has actually skied with Tin Woodsman. If he's anything like this in real life, I wouldn't enjoy skiing with him either.



Naturally.  Because everyone knows that skiing with the members of AZ is the litmus test of skiing ability and/or douchebaggery.  Please remain in the backseat on your seeded bumps at Sundown whilst in complete ignorance of what lies beyond the silvan curtain.  More snow for me.

Of course the irony is that there are precious few people in this thread who have chimed in supporting thenotion that "stashes" should be shared on line.  Despite the personal acrimony, I'm prety sure HPD hasn't even advocated that.  So if you want to continue arguing against the person (me) be my guest.  As for arguing against the idea, you really don't have a whole lot to say there.  You might as well be speculating what's on the dark side of the moon.


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## Greg (Aug 4, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Naturally.  Because everyone knows that skiing with the members of AZ is the litmus test of skiing ability and/or douchebaggery.



Perhaps not. But we hardly need any sort of litmus test for you.



Tin Woodsman said:


> Please remain in the backseat on your seeded bumps at Sundown whilst in complete ignorance of what lies beyond the silvan curtain.  More snow for me.



Will do. And you have fun playing with yourself alone in the woods.



Tin Woodsman said:


> Of course the irony is that there are precious few people in this thread who have chimed in supporting thenotion that "stashes" should be shared on line.  Despite the personal acrimony, I'm prety sure HPD hasn't even advocated that.  So if you want to continue arguing against the person (me) be my guest.  As for arguing against the idea, you really don't have a whole lot to say there.  You might as well be speculating what's on the dark side of the moon.



I think you missed this part of my very first post when I started this thread:



Greg said:


> Nevertheless, I'm *not *advocating the disclosure of _specific _directions to stashes, not that I definitely think it might ruin them, but more out of respect for those that do feel that way.



Respect of differing opinions. Something you haven't figure out yet. :roll:


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2008)

Greg said:


> Will do. And you have fun playing with yourself alone in the woods.


I wasn't aware that AZ is the only location where someone can find skiing buddies.  Thanks for the tip.  I don't come here to find skiing partners - I've got those - I come here to discuss topics of interest to skiers in the Northeast.  



> Respect of differing opinions. Something you haven't figure out yet. :roll:



How could I respect an opinion based on ignorance of the subject at hand?  If a 15 year old kid comes here and has an opinion that it's OK to drop babies on their head b/c they've never seen it lead to problems, should I "respect" that too Greg?  As a father, you'd probably take issue with that rather strongly, no? It's really pathetic that you preach about respecting an opinion on a subject about which you know quite literally nothing.  Now perhaps you don't like my style and find my views abrasive - guilty as charged - but I'm not going to come in and sing kumbaya with you when you're so off base.

I'm trying to think of a skiing equivalent that you could appreciate.  Maybe if there was some sort of dynamic whereby message board posts could encourage masses of snowlerbladers to swarm over your bumps runs and ruin the lines.  How would you feel about that?  I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be as accommodating as you are on the subject of stashes.

Honestly - ask yourself:  Do you spend a lot of time (more than a third of your skiing time)in the woods each year?  Have you done so for several years running?  If not, then I don't see how you could have a representative sample size to make an informed opinion.  You may be motivated by what you THINK is right, just or fair, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.  Truth be told, if I didn't see first hand the implications of what I speak, I'd probably feel the same way as you.


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## Greg (Aug 4, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I wasn't aware that AZ is the only location where someone can find skiing buddies.  Thanks for the tip.  I don't come here to find skiing partners - I've got those - I come here to discuss topics of interest to skiers in the Northeast.



What's the going rate for getting people to tolerate hanging with you these days?



Tin Woodsman said:


> How could I respect an opinion based on ignorance of the subject at hand?  If a 15 year old kid comes here and has an opinion that it's OK to drop babies on their head b/c they've never seen it lead to problems, should I "respect" that too Greg?  As a father, you'd probably take issue with that rather strongly, no? It's really pathetic that you preach about respecting an opinion on a subject about which you know quite literally nothing.  Now perhaps you don't like *my style and find my views abrasive* - guilty as charged - but I'm not going to come in and sing kumbaya with you when you're so off base.



I don't have a problem with any of your opinions, but your presentation most of the time truly sucks. Maybe you're a cool guy in person and since you brought up the parenting thing, I hope you teach your child to be less abrasive than you come across online.



Tin Woodsman said:


> I'm trying to think of a skiing equivalent that you could appreciate.  Maybe if there was some sort of dynamic whereby message board posts could encourage masses of snowlerbladers to swarm over *your bumps* runs and ruin the lines.  How would you feel about that?  I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be as accommodating as you are on the subject of stashes.
> 
> Honestly - ask yourself:  Do you spend a lot of time (more than a third of your skiing time)in the woods each year?  Have you done so for several years running?  If not, then I don't see how you could have a representative sample size to make an informed opinion.  You may be motivated by what you THINK is right, just or fair, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.  Truth be told, if I didn't see first hand the implications of what I speak, I'd probably feel the same way as you.



Okay, fair enough. I see your point; except they're not *my *bumps. Just like it's not *your* powder. If you feel so strongly that the online influence is what's ruining *your *stashes, than you shouldn't be contributing to any of the discussions and you should be urging me to shut AZ and SkiMRV down. Like I said in my first post, if this little message board is that influential, then it is inherently increasing skier traffic on the map and off. My argument is not whether stashes are being tainted, or whether you are justified in being so up in arms about it. I'm just questioning whether this Interweb thingie is the biggest (or even a significant) contributor. It's my impression that it's the advances in ski technology (i.e. fatter skis) that is a more likely cause. It's impossible to quantify either way, and I certainly don't know what the hell I'm talking about anyway as you so eloquently point out. So since you spend so much of your skiing time in the woods each year, for several years running, explain to me how you are so sure the Internet is the cause. Have you polled all the people poaching your powder to determine how they discovered your stash? Is it remotely possible that Joe Poser with his new 100mm waisted skis simply followed your tracks into the woods?


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2008)

Greg said:


> What's the going rate for getting people to tolerate hanging with you these days?


They need only pay for their own lift ticket, and it's free thereafter - what a bargain!



> I don't have a problem with any of your opinions, but your presentation most of the time truly sucks. Maybe you're a cool guy in person and since you brought up the parenting thing, I hope you teach your child to be less abrasive than you come across online.


The thing about the internet is that everyone has an equal voice, so it's difficult to just ignore or walk away from opinions that are truly loco as you would in the real world.




> Okay, fair enough. I see your point; except they're not *my *bumps. Just like it's not *your* powder. If you feel so strongly that the online influence is what's ruining *your *stashes, than you shouldn't be contributing to any of the discussions and you should be urging me to shut AZ and SkiMRV down.


"Your" was an unfortunate choice of words on my part.  You are correct that they aren't "your" bumps just like they are not "my" stashes.  Nonetheless, the point remains the same - if I were encouraging every wahoo to jump into the seeded bumps on Nor'Easter, thereby helping to ruin those lines, you'd probably have an opinion on that.  As evidenced by my backchannel messages to you regarding that off map run at Sundown(where I haven't skied in many years) that you posted pics and names of, this has nothing to do with "my" stashes, and is much more about the principle.



> Like I said in my first post, if this little message board is that influential, then it is inherently increasing skier traffic on the map and off. My argument is not whether stashes are being tainted, or whether you are justified in being so up in arms about it. I'm just questioning whether this Interweb thingie is the biggest (or even a significant) contributor. It's my impression that it's the advances in ski technology (i.e. fatter skis) that is a more likely cause. It's impossible to quantify either way, and I certainly don't know what the hell I'm talking about anyway as you so eloquently point out. So since you spend so much of your skiing time in the woods each year, for several years running, explain to me how you are so sure the Internet is the cause. Have you polled all the people poaching your powder to determine how they discovered your stash? Is it remotely possible that Joe Poser with his new 100mm waisted skis simply followed your tracks into the woods?



As I've said in this thread and others, there are obviously a number of factors contributing to the growth of skier traffic in the woods.  The resorts have taken notice, which is why every one of them with close to enough snow is opening up more gladed terrain than ever before.  Fatter skis, an ongoing reaction to the overly constrained style of the 80s and early 90s (Sundown used to clip tickets of people who caught air when I had a season pass in the late 80s), the natural evolution of the sport - these are all important dirving factors.  In the scheme of things, I'm sure that revealing stashes online is but a small factor in the mix compared to those more secular shifts.  

That doesn't make it right though.  Word of mouth is a powerful phenomenon, and the Internet is the ultimate expression of word of mouth.  I'd be interested in conducting an experiment.  If there is someone here who believes it's not a problem and who skis in the woods enough to know where some of the less obvious stashes at their home mountain are, I'd throw out a challenge.  How about you start a thread right here on AZ to reveal the location to said stash and see what sort of traffic it gets next year?   Who is going to raise their hand and take that challenge?  I'm not talking about the obvious sort of stuff of the type that was brought onto trail maps at K-Mart and Mt. Ellen in recent years.  I'm talking about stuff with a reasonably high "entrance fee" that remains relatively untracked b/c it's really well hidden and not obvious.  Is anyone going to step up and give the world chapter and verse on the ins and outs of Slide Brook, Thompson Brook, Taft/Mittersill/Tramline area, The Notch, K-Mart/Pico backside, or the 20th Hole?  Who is going to give me directions to the good lines in the Back/Birthday Bowls or the Survey Chutes?  What about Big Jay, Little Jay, North Jay and everywhere in between?   Let's see someone who objects to my message, and not the messenger, step up and take this challenge.  I will be very surprised if anyone does, b/c in all likelihood, if you know about these areas enough to enjoy them, you've got the good sense not to talk about them on the Internet.


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## Greg (Aug 4, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Nonetheless, the point remains the same - if I were encouraging every wahoo to jump into the seeded bumps on Nor'Easter, thereby helping to ruin those lines, you'd probably have an opinion on that.  As evidenced by my backchannel messages to you regarding that off map run at Sundown(where I haven't skied in many years) that you posted pics and names of, this has nothing to do with "my" stashes, and is much more about the principle.



A million percent wrong. Sundown is a feeder hill. Part of their philosophy is to provide some terrain to help folks learn to ski bumps. The more people that are exposed to bumps, the more that will find them enjoyable, some of whom will get hooked. It's my expectation that the overall demand for terrain that isn't groomed will then likely increase. If you don't think we already have to wait patiently for the newbs and snowboarders to clear the lines, you're crazy. A bit annoying? Perhaps. I then sit back and smile and realize that without people trying to ski those bumps, the mountain will flatten them all down. So I just wait and when the coast is clear, I can back seat my way down them. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's a bad analogy.

Oh, and that PM about me maliciously disclosing that "hidden stash" at the tree skiing mecca that is Sundown was quite possibly the most presumptuous correspondence I've ever experienced. In fact, check the date when I started this thread. It was made specifically to tweak you a bit after our little backchannel exchange. Guess I succeeded. :lol:

I'm done now. Thank you for allowing me to play devil's advocate.


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## Moe Ghoul (Aug 4, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> They need only pay for their own lift ticket, and it's free thereafter - what a bargain!
> 
> 
> I'm talking about stuff with a reasonably high "entrance fee" that remains relatively untracked b/c it's really well hidden and not obvious.  Is anyone going to step up and give the world chapter and verse on the ins and outs of Slide Brook, Thompson Brook, Taft/Mittersill/Tramline area, The Notch, K-Mart/Pico backside, or the 20th Hole?  Who is going to give me directions to the good lines in the Back/Birthday Bowls or the Survey Chutes?  What about Big Jay, Little Jay, North Jay and everywhere in between?   Let's see someone who objects to my message, and not the messenger, step up and take this challenge.  I will be very surprised if anyone does, b/c in all likelihood, if you know about these areas enough to enjoy them, you've got the good sense not to talk about them on the Internet.



Slow down......We're taking notes. ;-)


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 4, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Slow down......We're taking notes. ;-)



times 2


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2008)

Greg said:


> A million percent wrong. Sundown is a feeder hill. Part of their philosophy is to provide some terrain to help folks learn to ski bumps. The more people that are exposed to bumps, the more that will find them enjoyable, some of whom will get hooked. It's my expectation that the overall demand for terrain that isn't groomed will then likely increase. If you don't think we already have to wait patiently for the newbs and snowboarders to clear the lines, you're crazy. A bit annoying? Perhaps. I then sit back and smile and realize that without people trying to ski those bumps, the mountain will flatten them all down. So I just wait and when the coast is clear, I can back seat my way down them. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's a bad analogy.


It may be a poor analogy, but you get my point.  Yes - more skiers/riders can improve a bump line or at least build it up quicker.  That's obviously not the case for tree skiing.



> Oh, and that PM about me maliciously disclosing that "hidden stash" at the tree skiing mecca that is Sundown was quite possibly the most presumptuous correspondence I've ever experienced. In fact, check the date when I started this thread. It was made specifically to tweak you a bit after our little backchannel exchange. Guess I succeeded. :lol:
> 
> I'm done now. Thank you for allowing me to play devil's advocate.


I never said or implied that it was malicious.  It was only presumptuous in your eyes b/c you don't know enough about the issue to make a determination one way or the other.  You continue to beat the drum that this is some sort of elitism issue, and you continue to avoid any substantive discussions involving your first person observations of the issue.  But hey, please feel free to flame away from your seat in the peanut gallery.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Slow down......We're taking notes. ;-)



That's funny.


I can see by your 07-08' hit list that you don't have much to add to the discussion in the Northeast.

As for GSS, you are reputedly a frequent denizen of Stowe, how about you take up the challenge and let everyone know about the more out of the way stashes you love.  Time to get involved and back up the snark instead of simply bumping old threads.  Let's see it.


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## Moe Ghoul (Aug 4, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> That's funny.
> 
> 
> I can see by your 07-08' hit list that you don't have much to add to the discussion in the Northeast.
> ...


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 4, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Tin Woodsman said:
> 
> 
> > That's funny.
> ...


Sounds reasonable to me.  Hence my confusion at the mocking tone of your "taking notes" post.   Nevermind - nothing to see here.


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## Moe Ghoul (Aug 4, 2008)

No prob. You confused mocking with attempts at wittiness, sarcasm and wise assyness.


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## ski220 (Aug 4, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Either get there earlier or deal with it. Unless its property you own, you have no right to the run just as much as the next guy. Fat skis and snowboards ruin the run? Come on....the only thing that ruins a run is having to deal with snobs and elitists like you.



If you would bother to read the post - Yahoos ruin the run because fat skis and snowbords enable Yahoos with limited skills.  How many times do you see someone on a snowboard going down sideways plowing all the snow off thinking that he's a radical dude. I freely admit to being a powder snob.  Just think of all the extra room on the slope for you when I'm not there.  You should be thanking me.  If you bothered to read my next post immediatly afterward I say " Once you've made that first track - the door is wide open."   



eastcoastpowderhound said:


> Are you suggesting that anyone on powder skis is a yahoo?  I tend to see more yahoos on carving or midfat skis that venture off into the woods or deep snow and end up floundering while the solid skiers are more likely the ones on fat skis and ripping it up.
> (its SKIS by the way, not SKIES...makes me question your long tern experience if you can't spell the plural of ski)



Excuse my typo please.  If you look hard enough I am sure I will provide some more.  I suggested no such thing.  The topic of the thread was revealing stashes.  As for my long term experience - I've been skiing (spell check please) powder and off-piste since 1975.  So anything wider than (not then) 60 I consider fat.  How long have you been alive? 

People here on AlpineZone are very touchy.  Must be the HOT weather.


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## RENO (Aug 5, 2008)

Greg said:


> Not sure where you live RENO, but we should take a spin on the MTB someday. You seem like an all right dude, one that doesn't take things too seriously...



Yeah, can't take this crap too seriously. I'm just out there having fun. I love people who think they own a section of powder in the woods and act like they just discovered it and nobody has ever gone there. "Don't hit my stash dude, anybody asks me I'll tell them to go F themselves!" Ridiculous! !:???: :lol:

I live in Central Joysey. I guess you live in CT. We'd have to meet up somewhere 1/2 way I guess to go riding.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 5, 2008)

RENO said:


> Yeah, can't take this crap too seriously. I'm just out there having fun. I love people who think they own a section of powder in the woods and act like they just discovered it and nobody has ever gone there. "Don't hit my stash dude, anybody asks me I'll tell them to go F themselves!" Ridiculous! !:???: :lol:
> 
> I live in Central Joysey. I guess you live in CT. We'd have to meet up somewhere 1/2 way I guess to go riding.



Haha one time I was skiing Stowe and it was my second run on a powder day.  I went into Oh Shit and there were two boarders blocking the entrance.  I squeezed by to the side and they were both like..."Hey we were gonna hit that"...lol...you snooze you lose..lol


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 5, 2008)

ski220 said:


> Excuse my typo please.  If you look hard enough I am sure I will provide some more.  I suggested no such thing.  The topic of the thread was revealing stashes.  As for my long term experience - I've been skiing (spell check please) powder and off-piste since 1975.  So anything wider than (not then) 60 I consider fat.  How long have you been alive?
> .



I've been skiing since '75.  Just wanted to see if you thought _anyone_ on a wide ski was a yahoo, or just that there are lots of yahoos out there, some on fat skis, some on boards, some on race skis, etc.  Plenty of yahoos out there.    
If wider than 60mm is fat in your book that makes every known ski on the market a fat ski...including all the world cup race skis.  90mm+ is getting to be fat...skinny fat, but still fat.


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## JimG. (Aug 5, 2008)

May as well dump some more gas on this fire.

I just can't get worked up over getting to a favorite stash only to find a track there. Does it really matter that much? I mean, if you like that stash you must be good enough to avoid the track and make your own.

And if the stash is only wide enough for one track, well that's tough I guess.

Arguing over whose snow it is seems ridiculous to me and I sure as hell would never let a ski track ruin my day.


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## riverc0il (Aug 6, 2008)

JimG. said:


> May as well dump some more gas on this fire.
> 
> I just can't get worked up over getting to a favorite stash only to find a track there. Does it really matter that much? I mean, if you like that stash you must be good enough to avoid the track and make your own.
> 
> ...


But would you, or should you, share a stash online? For all the back and forth, no one seems to be forth coming with their favorite stashes even if they think the secrecy thing is lame which says it all to me (in regards to the thread topic... which has gone around the bush a little).


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 6, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> But would you, or should you, share a stash online? For all the back and forth, no one seems to be forth coming with their favorite stashes even if they think the secrecy thing is lame which says it all to me (in regards to the thread topic... which has gone around the bush a little).



Isn't it possible though that some people might not care about disclosing online, but out of respect to those that do care, they refrain from saying anything online?  I agree with you that the fact that no one has provided any locations says something, but I don't think it's conclusive.  Someone might personally think the secrecy thing is lame but understand the other side and cooperate despite personal opinion.


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## Greg (Aug 6, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> Isn't it possible though that some people might not care about disclosing online, but out of respect to those that do care, they refrain from saying anything online?  I agree with you that the fact that no one has provided any locations says something, but I don't think it's conclusive.  Someone might personally think the secrecy thing is lame but understand the other side and cooperate despite personal opinion.



Exactly. I never advocated in this thread that we should start a "stash" forum or anything. Nor did I make a claim that there isn't any increased yahoo traffic in the woods than in the past. I didn't even suggest that the off map tree skiing purists aren't warranted in being annoyed by it. My whole point here in playing devil's advocate was to pose the question that if someone posted something about a stash online, would it _dramatically _increase the chance that that particular stash will be tainted on the particular day you plan to ski there. I stand by my opinion that I don't think it would, but there really is no way to tell. I also still don't think I need to have 30 years of tree skiing experience to form that opinion. But I appreciate the fact that this is some form of unspoken online ski forum etiquette. I just thought it would make for a spirited debate and I was right.


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## Beetlenut (Aug 6, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> Isn't it possible though that some people might not care about disclosing online, but out of respect to those that do care, they refrain from saying anything online? I agree with you that the fact that no one has provided any locations says something, but I don't think it's conclusive. Someone might personally think the secrecy thing is lame but understand the other side and cooperate despite personal opinion.


 
+1 
While this thread has been spirited (i.e. Tin Woodsman, ski220, HPD, Greg,...), I think one reason you don't hear a lot of people on here giving up the goods, is because most of us just don't know that many, or any stashes to disclose. Myself included. But, if someone gave details of a stash, and I was going to ski that mountain, I would for sure actively seek out that stash! I agree with the philosophy that one should be shown the stash personally, like a rite of passage.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 6, 2008)

Beetlenut said:


> +1
> While this thread has been spirited (i.e. Tin Woodsman, ski220, HPD, Greg,...), I think one reason you don't hear a lot of people on here giving up the goods, is because most of us just don't know that many, or any stashes to disclose. Myself included. But, if someone gave details of a stash, and I was going to ski that mountain, I would for sure actively seek out that stash! I agree with the philosophy that one should be shown the stash personally, like a rite of passage.



I personally have mixed feelings.  When conditions warrant, I do spend a good portion of my time skiing off of the official trails.  At the same time, I have a sense that I do so, for the most part, in areas that are well known despite not being on the map.  Or maybe it's just that I'm rarely the one there right after a storm given that I am not especially flexible as to when I can go skiing.  But given that I ski unofficial stuff and it's often skied out, I can certainly understand the positions of Tin, Steve, and others in not wanted to disclose locations online.  I also see the other side and would be fine with a culture of disclosure (which I admit may benefit me more than I can help others, though I would try my best).  However, because many people have strong views against disclosing locations, I won't do it.  I respect their position and don't want to create animosity.  From a somewhat selfish standpoint admittedly, if I do ever get to ski with Steve, Tin, or others, I'd hope they would trust me enough to show me some fun places.  Especially in those circumstances--if someone showed me rather than me finding it myself--if that person does not want it disclosed I will not disclose it.  It's a bit iffier when I find it myself, but I still, out of respect for the views of others, will not post directions in a public board.  I do tend to use general descriptions of commonly known areas, like woods off of ____ trail, but I don't say where off the trail.  No one has complained to me yet, so I figure that is OK by most if not all.  If people objected, though, I guess I would be vaguer.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 6, 2008)

Greg said:


> Exactly. I never advocated in this thread that we should start a "stash" forum or anything. Nor did I make a claim that there isn't any increased yahoo traffic in the woods than in the past. I didn't even suggest that the off map tree skiing purists aren't warranted in being annoyed by it. My whole point here in playing devil's advocate was to pose the question that if someone posted something about a stash online, would it _dramatically _increase the chance that that particular stash will be tainted on the particular day you plan to ski there. I stand by my opinion that I don't think it would, but there really is no way to tell. I also still don't think I need to have 30 years of tree skiing experience to form that opinion. But I appreciate the fact that this is some form of unspoken online ski forum etiquette. I just thought it would make for a spirited debate and I was right.



Greg - 

This is entirely reasonable.  The key word here for me is "dramatically".  I think that's a bit of a high bar.  Will it dramatically increase traffic on a particular day?  Who can know?  Is is likely to lead to a _noticeable_ on your average ski day?  I think absolutely yes.

Beetlenut already came out and admitted he'd use such information.  Quite frankly, I might do so myself.  I'm sure we are not alone in that regard.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Aug 6, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Greg -
> 
> This is entirely reasonable.  The key word here for me is "dramatically".  I think that's a bit of a high bar.  Will it dramatically increase traffic on a particular day?  Who can know?  Is is likely to lead to a _noticeable_ on your average ski day?  I think absolutely yes.
> 
> Beetlenut already came out and admitted he'd use such information.  Quite frankly, I might do so myself.  I'm sure we are not alone in that regard.


If someone posted the route to a stash at SR that I hadn't found already or at some area that I was going to visit, I'd check it out if the conditions were right and if it was good, I'd show my good ski buddies.  Hell, just telling one good ski buddy will increase the traffic...he'll tell someone, they'll tell someone...all it takes is one additional person to find out and you could increase the people who know exponentially and thus increase traffic to some degree...too many variables to quantify.  I wouldn't share a stash online...there are a few at SR that are ugly in the wrong conditions, a couple where a wrong turn leads you over a 60' cliff, etc...for some lines you need to qualify the skier before sending them in, something you obviously can't do online.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 6, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> If someone posted the route to a stash at SR that I hadn't found already or at some area that I was going to visit, I'd check it out if the conditions were right and if it was good, I'd show my good ski buddies.  Hell, just telling one good ski buddy will increase the traffic...he'll tell someone, they'll tell someone...all it takes is one additional person to find out and you could increase the people who know exponentially and thus increase traffic to some degree...too many variables to quantify.  I wouldn't share a stash online...there are a few at SR that are ugly in the wrong conditions, a couple where a wrong turn leads you over a 60' cliff, etc...for some lines you need to qualify the skier before sending them in, something you obviously can't do online.



Dead on point.  I suspect my experience, and that of my ski buddies, would be exactly the same at various mtns in Northern VT.


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## riverc0il (Aug 6, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> From a somewhat selfish standpoint admittedly, if I do ever get to ski with Steve, Tin, or others, I'd hope they would trust me enough to show me some fun places..


You wouldn't believe how many times I have suggested that I would be more than happy to ski the entire mountain with people. I can't think of many people that I have skied with in the past few years that I haven't spent more time off the map than on the map. I ain't gonna not ski what I want to "keep a secret". I enjoy showing folks around and I really enjoy skiing with other people.... but I rarely do. Not due to lack of desire, for sure. But most folks on AZ don't go for the long hauls north that often nor are their schedules as loose to pick and choose which area the night before the trip. My only rule is you gotta make first chair on a powder day. Consider that an open invitation.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 6, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> My only rule is you gotta make first chair on a powder day. .




That's a good rule...btw..the woods between Toll-Road and the notch road at Stowe are really good..especially the ones a little to the left of the big tree..


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## riverc0il (Aug 6, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Dead on point.  I suspect my experience, and that of my ski buddies, would be exactly the same at various mtns in Northern VT.


+1. As mentioned before, I have previously benefited from information posted online. Despite being against such disclosure, I am not going to pretend I didn't see something that points out something new and interesting. Nobody interested in tree skiing would.

I have personally seen this first hand. I contributed at one point, as a matter of fact. Without naming or directly specific routes, I was essentially promoting how great skiing was in a particular location. Traffic shot up dramatiacally year after year and I hadn't been the only one proliferating (not even direct beta either!). That stopped years ago from me personally but mentions online continue and traffic has never been higher. Maybe it is not contributing to a one-to-one increase (definitely not), but a significant percentage for sure.

People who are not out of bounds tree skiers can certainly form their own opinions, no doubt. But I think any opinions formed without actually having been active in the pursuit and seeing traffic patterns over a number of years, specifically regarding areas that do get mentioned or at least alluded to online (it is surprisingly easy to read between the lines when you are looking for certain information), are not forming opinions with first hand knowledge and experience but rather assumption.

It certainly seems like traffic is increasing at resorts and ski areas mentioned online such as Magic, Sundown, Beast, etc. that previously saw very very very few mentions, much less trip reports. If spreading the word about a ski area can increase visits to a ski area, why not mention of "secret" (and thus highly coveted and desirous) locations off the map? Never doubt the internet's ability to create "buzz" about things and we also must keep in mind forums are read by many more people than actually register and participate. Google can pull some pretty interesting information for people who are not even regular browsers of the web site.


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## riverc0il (Aug 6, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> That's a good rule...btw..the woods between Toll-Road and the notch road at Stowe are really good..especially the ones a little to the left of the big tree..


Yes its a great rule. And I will have to check out those woods as I haven't skied them before. Thanks for proving my most recent point, GSS! You're a chump. I mean champ. :lol: 

:roll::???:

:flame:


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 6, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> You wouldn't believe how many times I have suggested that I would be more than happy to ski the entire mountain with people. I can't think of many people that I have skied with in the past few years that I haven't spent more time off the map than on the map. I ain't gonna not ski what I want to "keep a secret". I enjoy showing folks around and I really enjoy skiing with other people.... but I rarely do. Not due to lack of desire, for sure. But most folks on AZ don't go for the long hauls north that often nor are their schedules as loose to pick and choose which area the night before the trip. My only rule is you gotta make first chair on a powder day. Consider that an open invitation.



Thanks   I wasn't meaning to imply that you wouldn't, as I know you have said you would.  I was trying to say that a reason why I do not disclose stashes that I might know of is out of respect of the view you and others hold more so than a personal view that they shouldn't be disclosed.  

As for skiing with you, my problem is not that I don't want to go north, but the flexibility.  While I haven't made it to Jay so often, I have hit the MRV and Stowe a decent number of times (compared to how often I ski, not in absolute terms) over the past couple of years.  But I'm unlikely to do better than deciding to go away for a weekend a few days in advance as for as spontaneity, and weekdays just aren't likely except for a planned vacation.  As for first tracks, if I'm renting a car and driving up their, I'm all for it...If I'm with a ski club, well, then I'm subject to the bus.

I'd love to ski with you and others on AZ, I just find it tough to make plans do to the uncertainty in my ski schedule and fact that last year and probably going forward, more of my VT skiing will be through a ski club where I don't have much control over where I go and when I arrive -- the standard is SB or MRG on Saturday and Stowe on Sunday, but I would hate to leave someone waiting for me if that changes.

I did manage to meet up with Lostone last year for a couple runs though at SB.  Hopefully I'll be more successful with meetups this year.


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## riverc0il (Aug 6, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> As for skiing with you, my problem is not that I don't want to go north, but the flexibility.  While I haven't made it to Jay so often, I have hit the MRV and Stowe a decent number of times (compared to how often I ski, not in absolute terms) over the past couple of years.  But I'm unlikely to do better than deciding to go away for a weekend a few days in advance as for as spontaneity, and weekdays just aren't likely except for a planned vacation.  As for first tracks, if I'm renting a car and driving up their, I'm all for it...If I'm with a ski club, well, then I'm subject to the bus.


I think I got to MRG five times last year. Probably more this year I am thinking but that all depends on when the natural stuff falls. I generally only ski weekends on powder days and am pretty much a weekend warrior more often than not. I just don't like making plans more than a day or two out which is certainly an issue most people have a hard time working into their plans that often have to be made ahead of time to secure lodging and what not.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 6, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I think I got to MRG five times last year. Probably more this year I am thinking but that all depends on when the natural stuff falls. I generally only ski weekends on powder days and am pretty much a weekend warrior more often than not. I just don't like making plans more than a day or two out which is certainly an issue most people have a hard time working into their plans that often have to be made ahead of time to secure lodging and what not.



If I'm going with the ski club, I would be committing at earliest the Sunday night before the following weekend...If it's an uncrowded weekend for the trip, even a couple days before the weekend should work.  Really, for work, that's great, because I often might not know whether I'll need to work the weekend.  If I'm going on my own it depends how easily I can get lodging, as you said.  Rental cars are often easy to get last minute.  Maybe something can work out this year.


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## hardline (Aug 7, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> That's a good rule...btw..the woods between Toll-Road and the notch road at Stowe are really good..especially the ones a little to the left of the big tree..



funny thing is its true.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2008)

I have a question for Tin Woodsman and any of the others in this thread that are WAY against the mentioning of stashes online.

Last winter was epic all over New England, but perhaps no more so than it was at Stowe.  Stowe got pounded with snow, even more so than Jay from what I could tell.....from wherebdid I formulate this opinion?  From here on alpinezone through powderfreaks trip reports.  

Now, perhaps I need to go back and read some of his writing, but I recall what amounted to pretty much a three day a week photo essay of where he he was skiing in Stowee. Without re-reading his trip reports, I can't verify if he gave specific info regarding where he was skiing.  All of it was way familiar to me because I have skied the same lines over the years.

That said, even if he didn't specifically word out where he was skiing on Mansfield, I think through his photos it was pretty easy to read between the lines and find those stashes he was ripping.

Not one of you who are against sharing 'beta' :rolleys: called his posts/photos/trip reports out.  In my four years posting here, nothing I've read or seen has been so blatant in regards to sharing stashes online.

.....yet no one said a word.  Why did powderfreak get a free pass on those photo trip reports from those of you are fiercely prodtective of your stashes?


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## hardline (Aug 7, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I have a question for Tin Woodsman and any of the others in this thread that are WAY against the mentioning of stashes online.
> 
> Last winter was epic all over New England, but perhaps no more so than it was at Stowe.  Stowe got pounded with snow, even more so than Jay from what I could tell.....from wherebdid I formulate this opinion?  From here on alpinezone through powderfreaks trip reports.
> 
> ...



he never was specific. you know where he was because you have been there but we hiked the mountain is summer and have an intimate knowledge off the mountain. if you where a first timer you would never be able t find those areas(rok grarden not included). everytime i saw his TR would reminded how much i missed the place and why. can't wait for stowe AZ day.


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## riverc0il (Aug 7, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> .....yet no one said a word.


Not entirely correct. Perhaps not here (might have been FTO), but I had suggested other posters were giving a little but too much away if not explicitly naming anything but the most obvious runs. While not providing instructions, naming prominent features as guidelines and posting pictures with certain angles does provide much food for thought. Going back to my previous post, I have learned just as much about Stowe from powderfreak's reports as I have from skiing there myself. No free pass there but those reports are not explicit and everyone that skis off the grid has to figure out how to walk that fine line between trip reporting and disclosing. 80% of my pictures last year were from off the map but I never provided a single caption or trip report comment that would have indicated location. That has become my approach is show the conditions in pictures so others might know how things are looking. I used to post trip reports much like powderfreak a while back and it brought bad results.

Besides, how to get to much of Mansfield's OB is hardly a secret when you can see people boot packing while you ride the Gondi or skinning off the forerunner. Other stuff posted, well, there is that fine line. Depends how you interpret "mentioning" a stash online.


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## Tin Woodsman (Aug 7, 2008)

I think there are a couple of factors at play here.  Scott (powderfreak) has already modified his style somewhat to better obscure the locations of his pictures.  Even then, he talks about faces/sides/aspects fo the mountain instead of specific locations.  Moreover, I can tell from personal experience of having skied with Scott that you've got a very, very small chance of actually finding many of the lines he skis unless you are with him.  It's no secret that there is a lot of stuff in the Notch, but the art is in knowing how to use the folds in the terrain over there to either find the untracked snow (lots of it on the Manny side) or ensure you don't get cliffed out (on the Spruce side).  Without that knowledge, you have far less than half the picture.


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## hardline (Aug 7, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I think there are a couple of factors at play here.  Scott (powderfreak) has already modified his style somewhat to better obscure the locations of his pictures.  Even then, he talks about faces/sides/aspects fo the mountain instead of specific locations.  Moreover, I can tell from personal experience of having skied with Scott that you've got a very, very small chance of actually finding many of the lines he skis unless you are with him.  It's no secret that there is a lot of stuff in the Notch, but the art is in knowing how to use the folds in the terrain over there to either find the untracked snow (lots of it on the Manny side) or ensure you don't get cliffed out (on the Spruce side).  Without that knowledge, you have far less than half the picture.



that the nice thing about mansfield. everyone can see the boot packs/traverses but unless you know where to go when you get out there people just follow other peoples tracks down. you really cant see whats going on out in the notch. you need to be familier with the terrain to know where to go.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 8, 2008)

bump


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## skibum (Aug 9, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> http://www.stashpirates.com/index.html :-D
> 
> A lot of people in Steamboat are pissed at these guys.



I skimmed over most of the rest of the thread as it seemed to be a lot of quibbling, forgive me if i missed something important.
Anyway, as an 8 year Steamboat loc I was pissed at these guys until I saw the map. It was all inbounds, readily visible stuff that had been mentioned in tourist mags and Ski/Powder etc. I then realized it was probably a good thing as a lot of first timers to the boat complain about a lack of expert terrain and this would show them where to go, and of course keep them away from my stashes. Also, a few times a year some poor tourist on the search for freshies would spend a night in the woods or have to be rescued from a cliff line, and a map like this might prevent those situations.

As for the original question I would say there are secret stashes and there are super secret squirrel stashes. I did Tuckerbrook because I read about it in Powder. Further recon led me to stuff I might tell you about, stuff I might show you, and stuff you would have to beat out of me.

...and yes, we are lurking and watching, ready to snake your line...


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## riverc0il (Aug 9, 2008)

skibum said:


> ...and yes, we are lurking and watching, ready to snake your line...


Says the man who has 82 posts and registered in 2001. This can't be said enough in this thread. I am sure there are a lot of people reading this thread waiting for hints to drop that would not be so generous as to warn posters they are reading and ready to pounce.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 11, 2008)

bumpity


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## ski220 (Sep 1, 2008)

skibum said:


> As for the original question I would say there are secret stashes and there are super secret squirrel stashes. I did Tuckerbrook because I read about it in Powder. Further recon led me to stuff I might tell you about, stuff I might show you, and stuff you would have to beat out of me.
> 
> ...and yes, we are lurking and watching, ready to snake your line...



Just a reminder. Never forget.


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## JD (Sep 1, 2008)

No secrets on Mansfield.  Just a matter of how hard you are willing to work.  Fresh POW can be had because people are lazy, not because stuff is hidden so well.  This person's Line or that person's line.  They are all my lines, they are all yours, just a question of who get's there first.  Sure, someone cut it, but at a lift served area, you can't really claim it.  Only a matter of time until someone discovers it.  MOST people  don't get too agro, there are some self entitled A$$HOLES over there however, born with a silver spoon in their mouth, and they only remove it to bark at people....that's $towe for ya.  Now I take a little more pleasure in skiing stuff they cut.  All that being said, I won't give directions on the internet.  PM me and I'll send you a map though!


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## hardline (Sep 1, 2008)

JD said:


> No secrets on Mansfield.  Just a matter of how hard you are willing to work.  Fresh POW can be had because people are lazy, not because stuff is hidden so well.  This person's Line or that person's line.  They are all my lines, they are all yours, just a question of who get's there first.  Sure, someone cut it, but at a lift served area, you can't really claim it.  Only a matter of time until someone discovers it.  MOST people  don't get too agro, there are some self entitled A$$HOLES over there however, born with a silver spoon in their mouth, and they only remove it to bark at people....that's $towe for ya.  Now I take a little more pleasure in skiing stuff they cut.  All that being said, I won't give directions on the internet.  PM me and I'll send you a map though!



thats exactly the way i feel about mansfield. however soempeople feel like the stuff out in  the notch isn't part of the area. i think it you can see it any where from in the resort its fair game.

for shits and giggles let ud know how many PM's you actually get.


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## ski220 (Sep 1, 2008)

JD said:


> No secrets on ********.  All that being said, I won't give directions on the internet.  PM me and I'll send you a map though!



Really?



hardline said:


> thats exactly the way i feel about ********. however soempeople feel like the stuff out in  the notch isn't part of the area. i think it you can see it any where from in the resort its fair game.
> 
> for shits and giggles let ud know how many PM's you actually get.



Certainly fair game for skiing, but for posting routes on line.  It's getting bad enough up there already.  Just how much traffic can a routes take.  Especially if you start putting duffers up there who the sideslip the snow off.  Just look at how many idiots start hiking and then come down the bootpack tearing it up, destroying it.  

Sure, it's all fair game if you are willing to work for it, put in the time to learn it.

For shits and giggles - don't advertise if you're not going to deliver.


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## hardline (Sep 1, 2008)

ski220 said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



was there really people comming right down the boot pack this year? thats just dumb. i only booted it twice this year and it was early in the morrning after blow in/couple of inches. there was maybe a few people that had been up before me. 

let me say this the amount of traffic that non map lines has gone up since i was in school in the early 90's but i still do not have a problem finding fresh snow 1 or 2 days after a storm. i don't even rush to the lifts on a powder day. my favorite lines stay almost untracked all day. i don't feel like have to rush. there is a shit ton of terrain on the mountain, most of my favs requires a good amount of effort to get to and that keeps the goobers to a min.


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## dmc (Sep 2, 2008)

Spent the weekend revisiting my stashes at Hunter...  Did some minor clearing and got some gps way points

I think this winter is going to be great..


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## JD (Sep 2, 2008)

ski220 said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Guess who the first PM was from.  lol.  
Sorry boss...that bit about "PM me and I'll send you a map" was a bit of a troll I guess.  


As far as skiing the boot pack goes, some days this year I almost did it.  I really don't mind so much as long as they know to not destroy the boot pack or skin track in the process.


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## hardline (Sep 2, 2008)

JD said:


> Guess who the first PM was from.  lol.
> Sorry boss...that bit about "PM me and I'll send you a map" was a bit of a troll I guess.
> 
> 
> As far as skiing the boot pack goes, some days this year I almost did it.  I really don't mind so much as long as they know to not destroy the boot pack or skin track in the process.



i thought about it as well but its just common sense to stay off the boot pack. 

there is great pic of jim rippey launching of the uppermost cliff and landing on the face that made the cover of transworld in 93 i would love to find that. we had to push him so he had enough speed to get going. that was the only time we came close to riding down there.

after a little more googling i found this 





witht the caption.
Kristian Geissler, front flip off the Rippey Cliff, Mt. Mansfield, VT, 2005

i had no idea they named the cliff after hip for that day. how fing cool is that.
he landed right on the race and rode it out.


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## JD (Sep 2, 2008)

Kristian is a mad man.  He also front flipped Balls Falls, a legit 60 footer.  Now he's into Base jumping and ski base.  We day dreamed about ski basing Elephant's head in the notch.  There's a fabulous looking gully that leads into it, you would have to land on the notch road.  A more sane line would be to ski the gully then traverse hard left over towards the "Blue Room" and rap down that.  The gully below Blue Room is sick too!  can't wait for skiing.  I've known that cliff as the Rippey Cliff since I've been riding at Stowe in 99.


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## hardline (Sep 2, 2008)

JD said:


> Kristian is a mad man.  He also front flipped Balls Falls, a legit 60 footer.  Now he's into Base jumping and ski base.  We day dreamed about ski basing Elephant's head in the notch.  There's a fabulous looking gully that leads into it, you would have to land on the notch road.  A more sane line would be to ski the gully then traverse hard left over towards the "Blue Room" and rap down that.  The gully below Blue Room is sick too!  can't wait for skiing.  I've known that cliff as the Rippey Cliff since I've been riding at Stowe in 99.



 i wish i still had the mag cover. i think it was 93 or 94 before the us open that all the burton riders where in town so we where acting as guides for everyone that was in town. after he cleaned the shit out of his pants he said something along the lines of " you east coast guys a fuckin nuts" then after did a woods run down to the gondi he was amazed at the speed that we rode it what he called " fuckin tight ass woods" i love showing guys from the west around. it really humbles them.


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## JD (Sep 2, 2008)

Yup.  You have to have it memorized to really rip the tight stuff up there.  Blind turns at speed are almost as good as big horizon lines on the river.....almost.


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## dmc (Sep 2, 2008)

hardline said:


> i thought about it as well but its just common sense to stay off the boot pack.
> 
> There is great pic of jim rippey launching of the uppermost cliff and landing on the face that made the cover of transworld in 93 i would love to find that. We had to push him so he had enough speed to get going. That was the only time we came close to riding down there.



rippey = the man


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## hardline (Sep 2, 2008)

dmc said:


> rippey = the man



ya he was a pretty cool cat. my fav rider has always been lynn he's so smooth. when i lived in vt i spent a bunch of time hanging with brush's crew and if you could get past his smack talking he was a really good rider to.


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## SMAN (Sep 4, 2012)

i bet.  having lived in the boat, its a bummer to know sometihng you "found" is now "public."   anyhow its cool to find it yourself.....thats the adventure


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## Nick (Sep 4, 2012)

Welcome to the boards SMAN.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 5, 2012)

Some people are way too uptight about their completely untracked snow. Sure, it's nice. But it's not worth being a greedy stash mongrel over.

Most of the more notable stashes are written about somewhere or other or you can find out by asking somebody nicer.. so there's no need to be that dick who just won't give up the deets. There was a time when all of us didn't know very many stashes.

Personally I'm happy to share as long as it's somebody or some folks who won't be way over their heads or obviously unprepared for the challenge. What goes around comes around.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 5, 2012)

bdfreetuna said:


> Some people are way too uptight about their completely untracked snow. Sure, it's nice. But it's not worth being a greedy stash mongrel over.
> 
> Most of the more notable stashes are written about somewhere or other or you can find out by asking somebody nicer.. so there's no need to be that dick who just won't give up the deets. There was a time when all of us didn't know very many stashes.
> 
> Personally I'm happy to share as long as it's somebody or some folks who won't be way over their heads or obviously unprepared for the challenge. What goes around comes around.





I think a lot are just common sense like bike trails in summer mountain biking migth be a good spot to look.


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## Nick (Sep 5, 2012)

I think most people don't have an issue sharing they jus don't want it made public. I still think 99% of skiers out there won't bother anyway, they stick to the groomers and marked trails

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## MadMadWorld (Sep 6, 2012)

Nick said:


> I think most people don't have an issue sharing they jus don't want it made public. I still think 99% of skiers out there won't bother anyway, they stick to the groomers and marked trails
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2



I think you are probably right about this. Most of the time it requires a certain level of skiing just to access these places (with the exception of a couple). For example, everyone and their mother new about Black Hole at Smuggs before it was put on the trail map but it never got really skied out even on powder days because to access the real technical lines, you have to ski Lift Line, Freefall or Robin's and those are no walk in the park either.


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