# New Car Possibilities



## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2010)

*Background*
I've been shopping around for a new car for a few weeks now.  In the beginning of June, my 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid died while I was driving on the Garden State Parkway at 5:15 PM while I was in bumper to bumper traffic doing around 50mph.  All of a sudden while I was driving, I got a message on the display to "Stop Safely Now!".  I was able to restart the car after about 10 minutes and took it directly to Ford.  

Apparently, the water pump that cools the battery system is not covered under the Hybrid Unique Components warranty.  Needles to say, I think it's really shitty of Ford not to cover this.  There are 4 other of my co-workers who have the same car that had the same problem.  I'm trying to get Ford to recognize that there's a possibility of a design problem  but that's not going very well.  This doesn't really leave a very good impression with me, so I have decided to sell the car.

I've also been driving anywhere from 300-800 miles a week for  work lately.  The seat on the FEH isn't really all the comfortable on long drives and let's face it, hybrids aren't really that much fun to drive.
*
Test Drives*
I drove a lot of mid-sized SUV's since then.  Here's some of my impressions

Hyundai Santa Fe - A real surprise of all the cars I drove.  Good driving position, handles well and decent acceleration.  Controls easy to use.  Seat has great upper support but the seat portion felt very flat and unsupportive (but not uncomfortable).  Great use of storage compartments.

Nissan Murano - Great seat and driving position.  Controls somewhat confusing and flashy.  Sun roof was very noisy, but opening the rear windows a bit helps to lessen that. Fun to drive. My 2nd choice.

Subaru Tribecca - I really tried to like this car.  There's something dash/console that looks very sharp to me.  While the seat was overall comfortable, I just couldn't get comfortable driving it.  A bit sluggish off the line.

Subaru Forrester - Overall a very nice ride.  A bit smaller then I wanted.

Mazda CX7 - Very fun to drive.  Way to small.

Mazda CX9 - Another surprise.  Very comfortable, and great ride.  

Audi Q5 - What a ride.  So comfortable. Drives on rails.  Rear visibility is really reduced because of the spoiler.  Controls not intuitive.  Most fun to drive.  

Volvo XC60 - This is what I'm going to be getting.  I really enjoy this car.  And that brings me to my two options.  Drive is almost as fun as the Q5.

*Which Car?  *
So I've been working with 2 different dealers. 

Dealer A - Has a 2010 XC60 that meets my minimum requirements.  He's offering me better then X-plan pricing and is going about $2K below invoice.  He's also offering me a fair price for my Escape.  The only thing I don't need in this model is the built-in rear booster seats (at the expense of heated rear seats).  If we ever decide to have kids, we'll use M's XC90.

Dealer B has a 2011 XC60 that has Volvo's BLIS.  I like the how the BLIS system works, but it's not for everyone.  He's offering me $240 over invoice.  But there's some significant changes in the 2011 model in addition to the heated rear seats. 


They put a much nicer set of rims on there.  
Changed the power steering system to a electric/hydraulic system.
Increased hp from 281 to 300 (rumor of 1 MPG gain but not EPA tested yet)
Changed to the S80's steering wheel (nicer)

Cargo cover no longer standard.
I don't yet know what dealer is going to offer me on a trade in.  I let him know what I'm expecting.

If things weren't confusing enough for me, one of my co-workers expressed interest in buying my Escape. He already has an Escape Hybrid, but no longer has personal use of it due to cutbacks.  I told him I need a decision by Friday

So if you're still reading this :blink:, which would you go for, the 2010 or 2011?  Why?


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2010)

What kind of warranty does the Volvo offer?  Will you potentially get screwed on something like you did with the Ford?

It's well documented here that I'm a big Hyundai fan; not because I think it's the most fun car to drive in the world.  That's why I bought my wife a Mazda :lol:.  but her cars only see 12K miles per year, so wear and tear is less of concern.

Any warranty issues I've had with my Hyundai have been handled incredibly well.  Even covered a problem past warranty for me over 100K miles.  That was at a dealership I didn't even buy the car at.

They're not 'fun' cars at all, but the build quality and reliability right now is on par with pretty much anything on the road for the price.  Unless that changes, I think we'll always have one Hyundai as our high mileage people mover and then another more fun car for the 2nd car.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2010)

5 Years, 60K (same as the Ford, except for the Hybrid which is 7/100K).  All standard maintenance are included for the warranty period.


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## meff (Jul 14, 2010)

Just a headsup, there is still a lot of Ford left in the Volvo's since the sale just happened in the last year.  So some of the same issues might still be lurking around.


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## Edd (Jul 14, 2010)

I read the Forester is small for you but I have slowly fallen in love with my 2010 Forester.  It's the Premium edition with a sunroof and winter package.  Awesome in the winter weather and surprisingly roomy.


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## andrec10 (Jul 14, 2010)

Have you given the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD a look? I can get 3 pairs of skis thru the passthru and plenty of other luggage in the trunk. They are giving some awesome deals right now...


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2010)

Any reason you didn't test drive an Outback?

Aha, I love ignoring your question and asking something you didn't want.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2010)

meff said:


> Just a headsup, there is still a lot of Ford left in the Volvo's since the sale just happened in the last year.  So some of the same issues might still be lurking around.


The only real issues I've had with my Ford is with their hybrid system and the fact that they won't warranty a hybrid component under the hybrid unique warranty.  That and the drivers seat on one side is starting to collapse inwards a bit making it very uncomfortable on long drives.



andrec10 said:


> Have you given the 2010 Acura TL SH-AWD a look? I can get 3 pairs of skis thru the passthru and plenty of other luggage in the trunk. They are giving some awesome deals right now...


I thought about an AWD sedan, but I often have needs where I use the extra cargo space that suvs provide.



Marc said:


> Any reason you didn't test drive an Outback?
> 
> Aha, I love ignoring your question and asking something you didn't want.


I wanted to, but there's currently a long lead time on delivery.  Almost all the 2010's are spoken for so I'd have to order a 2011 from the factory.  I really didn't want to wait a few more months.


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## Geoff (Jul 15, 2010)

I don't follow buying a nice car and then chewing it to bits driving 300 to 800 miles per week for work. A 30+ MPG econobox with aftermarket seats and audio makes more sense.


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I wanted to, but there's currently a long lead time on delivery.  Almost all the 2010's are spoken for so I'd have to order a 2011 from the factory.  I really didn't want to wait a few more months.



No kidding.  Didn't know they were selling that well.  Subie giving some big incentives or something?


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I don't follow buying a nice car and then chewing it to bits driving 300 to 800 miles per week for work. A 30+ MPG econobox with aftermarket seats and audio makes more sense.


My expense checks will more then cover the my monthly car payments, fuel, insurance etc...  



Marc said:


> No kidding.  Didn't know they were selling that well.  Subie giving some big incentives or something?


I'm not sure if they were or still are, but I went to two different Subie dealers and the both told me the same thing. 

 Interestingly enough, every car dealership I went had no shortage of people looking for a new car.


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2010)

You get the standard mileage reimbursement?  What is it up to now, like $0.45/mile?


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## o3jeff (Jul 15, 2010)

I'm kinda with Geoff on this one. In 3-4 years you'll have a car with 100k on it that's depreciated pretty good. If you decide to sell after 2 years, you could be upside down on the loan. How long you plan on keeping it for?

Another thing to think of is say next year they offer/switch you a different job, then you'll be responsible for the loan payment.

I would stay away from the high end cars for what your using it for. As you know a vehicle is the worst investment you can make. Maybe consider a used one since someone already took some of that hit for you!


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## gmcunni (Jul 15, 2010)

my last 2 car purchases have been used.. i don't think i'd buy a new car again.. BUT.. if you are buying new, my 2 cents, get the 2011.. more newer is more better.


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## andrec10 (Jul 15, 2010)

How about a high mileage lease? You only pay for what you use.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2010)

Marc said:


> You get the standard mileage reimbursement?  What is it up to now, like $0.45/mile?


 $0.50/mile



o3jeff said:


> I'm kinda with Geoff on this one. In 3-4 years you'll have a car with 100k on it that's depreciated pretty good. If you decide to sell after 2 years, you could be upside down on the loan. How long you plan on keeping it for?
> 
> Another thing to think of is say next year they offer/switch you a different job, then you'll be responsible for the loan payment.
> 
> I would stay away from the high end cars for what your using it for. As you know a vehicle is the worst investment you can make. Maybe consider a used one since someone already took some of that hit for you!


  My current project is going to talk another 18 months to just to build.  Even longer if we run into software problems during implementations (typical for us).  Ideally, I'd like to keep it as long as possible.

Financially speaking, keeping the Escape make the most sense.


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## Geoff (Jul 15, 2010)

Depends on whether an Escape can take all those miles. An off-warranty American SUV can quickly get expensive.  Even with a 100K extended warranty, you're off warranty in 3 years driving that much.  

My personal experience with Exploders is that things start breaking.   I've had a Navajo and 2 Mountaineers.  I made my extended warranty money back easily on all three.


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## andrec10 (Jul 15, 2010)

Our local Subaru Dealer has 11 outbacks in stock.

http://www.rugessubaru.com/new-inve...r&SBmake=Subaru&SBmodel=Outback&SBprice=clear


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> My expense checks will more then cover the my monthly car payments, fuel, insurance etc...



damn, your company must have a FAT car expense program.

For the record, I'm given a flat $500 a month (tax free) stipend for car expenses and I'm compensated $.23 a mile for any mile over 3K each month.  The difference between the .23 and the federal mileage rate I claim personally at the end of the year on my income tax returns.

That package doesn't come close to covering my ownership and operating costs of a 22K Hyundai.  I don't have it all figured out, but I'm figuring my out of pocket hit is in the neighborhood of $300 a month.

fluck, typing that just makes me angry and realize further that I need to start hunting hard for a new gig. :lol:


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 15, 2010)

Root : from the ole guyhere ----------------LIFE IS SHORT -- you work hard for your  $$$  -- IF you r fortunate enuf to get a generous mileage deal from your firm , and you really want to get something that is both COMFORTABLE  for your business travel  and satisfys your other design criteria then by all means get WHATEVER THE HELL you want and don't obsess about it .

I will say this my buddy just got a new Santa Fe  all tricked out and  neither he nor i would have ever considered it. We were both upscale car guys 

 But after having taken several longer rides in it for golf outings out of the area -- its pretty damn impressive comfort wise  and looks FINE with pretty fair MPG and THAT warranty is solid . Quality is very good so i will have it ON MY RADAR SCREEN next time around .

If i was sold on the Volvo i'd get the 2011

Have phun playin the game


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## ctenidae (Jul 15, 2010)

What's the monthly payment difference betwen the two? Is it worth it for whatever you get extra? If yes, get the 2011. If no, get the 2010.


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## dmc (Jul 15, 2010)

I love having a new car!  I don't care about resale.  I'll drive them into the ground anyway..

I save and pay cash for cars so it doesn't really matter..  I just want to be comfortable and safe..

Lifes too short to drive a crappy car...


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> What's the monthly payment difference betwen the two? Is it worth it for whatever you get extra? If yes, get the 2011. If no, get the 2010.



This is the kind of sage, insightful advice we get from AZ's brightest financial mind?



There really is no free lunch.


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## ctenidae (Jul 15, 2010)

Marc said:


> This is the kind of sage, insightful advice we get from AZ's brightest financial mind?
> 
> There really is no free lunch.



Doesn't say much for the financial minds at AZ, does it?
I could throw out terms like cost/benefit analysis, marginal utility, etc etc, but in the end, the question is still "Are nice rims worth $50 a month to you?"


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## andrec10 (Jul 15, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Doesn't say much for the financial minds at AZ, does it?
> I could throw out terms like cost/benefit analysis, marginal utility, etc etc, but in the end, the question is still "Are nice rims worth $50 a month to you?"



What he said...YES!


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Doesn't say much for the financial minds at AZ, does it?
> I could throw out terms like cost/benefit analysis, marginal utility, etc etc, but in the end, the question is still "Are nice rims worth $50 a month to you?"



With the exception of Warp Daddy, I don't think there was any risk an outsider would confuse us with the Wall Street Journal, no.


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## ctenidae (Jul 15, 2010)

Marc said:


> With the exception of Warp Daddy, I don't think there was any risk an outsider would confuse us with the Wall Street Journal, no.



National Inquirer, perhaps...

Bat Boy Lives!


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## bvibert (Jul 15, 2010)

Get the red one.


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## ctenidae (Jul 15, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Get the red one.



Now, that's advice you can use!

http://www.volvocars.com/intl/top/about/news-events/pages/default.aspx?itemid=113

Saw a red one of these a couple months ago. Snazzy. Real snazzy.


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## hammer (Jul 15, 2010)

So you want to get an Edward Cullen car...:wink:







Really, these look like a nice ride.

Regarding your choice, I'd go with the 2011 car.  Volvos tend to have  high depreciation so if you do decide to trade it in at some point, the  extra model year will make a difference.  In addition, you have one model year of bugs that have hopefully been worked out.



dmc said:


> Lifes too short to drive a crappy car..


+1...as much as I liked not having car payments it's nice to have a new car again.


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## Glenn (Jul 15, 2010)

Ask Brownsville what car he "beloves" the most.....


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## ctenidae (Jul 15, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Ask Brownsville what car he "beloves" the most.....



And then get something else.


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## Glenn (Jul 15, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> And then get something else.




:lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2010)

Warp Daddy said:


> I will say this my buddy just got a new Santa Fe  all tricked out and  neither he nor i would have ever considered it. We were both upscale car guys
> 
> But after having taken several longer rides in it for golf outings out of the area -- its pretty damn impressive comfort wise  and looks FINE with pretty fair MPG and THAT warranty is solid . Quality is very good so i will have it ON MY RADAR SCREEN next time around .



That was the case with my old man.  His previous cars were Infinity, Infinity, Lexus, Lexus.  He bought a Hyundai Genesis V8 a year ago and likes it better than the Infinity M35X it replaced.  Cost him about 10K less for the same options.


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## dmc (Jul 15, 2010)

hammer said:


> +1...as much as I liked not having car payments it's nice to have a new car again.



thats why I try to pay cash...


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## campgottagopee (Jul 15, 2010)

Wether you pay cash, lease or finance, you have to be happy/enjoy what you're driving, so get the 2011. Sounds like it's got a bunch of cool stuff on it.

As for Subie's, my first 2011 Outback just hit, so they're on the way......reason for none in stock??? Simple, supply and demand, it really is that simple...no incentives other than low APR.

Good luck!!


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2010)

dmc said:


> Lifes too short to drive a crappy car...


I agree



bvibert said:


> Get the red one.


Funny you should mention that...  Here's the 2011


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2010)

dmc said:


> thats why I try to pay cash...



would you still pay cash if zero percent financing was offered?

Seems to me in that situation it would make more sense to invest the 30K and have it make money for you, instead of giving it all to the dealer when making payments won't cost you any more than buying it out right.


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## dmc (Jul 15, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> would you still pay cash if zero percent financing was offered?
> 
> Seems to me in that situation it would make more sense to invest the 30K and have it make money for you, instead of giving it all to the dealer when making payments won't cost you any more than buying it out right.



I don't like using credit unless I have to..  thats just me.. I always try to use cash.  I have no debt except my mortgage and I'd like to keep it that way.  I

I was in deep credit hell for a long time.   It was OK if i was working  but when I got laid off it became a liability.   I now prepare myself for retirement and for not working as well.  Granted I make twice as much as I used to but I put so much away for retirement it almost feels like I don't make any $


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## hammer (Jul 15, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> would you still pay cash if zero percent  financing was offered?



Not sure about other banks but PenFed is offering 2.99% car  loans...mainly know about it because we're members.

https://www.penfed.org


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2010)

Not looking to good for Dealer B right now.  He's $2K short of where he needs to be on trade-in/purchase price.  Got a tip from a friend to go to the dealer that's closest to Volvo Cars of North America's HQ office building.  They have a inventory of cars that have only been driven by company executives but carry full warranty because technically, they've never been sold.


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## NYDrew (Jul 16, 2010)

The car is 3 years old...how can they not possible cover this?????  You just encouraged me to never buy a Ford.

Anyway, my father has a Forester and loves it, its his second.  I took it for a joy ride when he first got it and it was a dream, very tight on the road, actually takes some getting used to the control.

The old Forrester I drove a lot more.  I took it once from Binghamton to Truxton (Cortland) in a ice storm,  I never seen roads ice like that before, just a complete slick.  Anyway, in the parking lot at work I tried to get the vehicle to lose control...I tried and tried but that legendary subaru AWD just would not let go of the road.

All in all....awesome vehicles. (my civic is also awesome, gas mileage competitive with those hybrids except it has a std tranny and a ton more fun)

From towing experience, the current wave of hybrids are nothing but trouble....I hate to say it but for now I think gas is still the best way to go.  I mean I get 35 on the mountain roads in Vermont (40's if I treat her well on flat highway) and I don't have to sacrifice performance for it.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 16, 2010)

NYDrew said:


> The car is 3 years old...how can they not possible cover this?????  You just encouraged me to never buy a Ford.
> 
> Anyway, my father has a Forester and loves it, its his second.  I took it for a joy ride when he first got it and it was a dream, very tight on the road, actually takes some getting used to the control.
> 
> ...


I'm less then thrilled that Ford isn't standing behind their product.  I found out today that two more people have had the same problem with the battery water pump.  That makes a total of 6 fleet vehicles now.  Another guy needed to have some pretty major work done to the steering system and I heard about another where the rear drive-train disintegrated.  I know the Escape has sold well the past 2-3 years, but there's probably not many of them pushing 60K in mileage and some problems seem to be showing up.  Time for me to unload this car.

My brother has a 2001 Forester.  He loves that thing.  Does all his own maintenance on it as well.  Brakes, axles, body panels.

My gave me co-worker one last chance today. He never called me back, so tomorrow I'm going to go to dealer A and put a deposit down on the 2010.  It's around $80 a month less then what dealer B has to offer.  Kinda sucks since dealer B is right in town and the other guy is about 15 miles away.


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## Philpug (Jul 17, 2010)

If interested in a Volvo. Contact Frank Katen (Used Car Mgr) at Stillman Volvo in West Chester Pa. He is one of the few straight-forward honest people in the car business. Yeah, I said all that in one sentence.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 17, 2010)

Thanks Phil. I gave dealer B (in town) one last chance today, but he  wouldn't budge at all on the trade in and there was still a 3K delta in  price.  Here's the thing...the car I'm buying from dealer A, was  originally shipped to (and on) dealer B's lot.  It's actually the 1st car I  looked at.  When the 2011 came in, I told the guy  of the two, I'd be  more interested in the newer one.  Dealer A didn't have any 2011's, but  did the search and swap with them since it meet my basic requirements..   Even if dealer B matched the purchase price, he was still short $2K on  my trade-in.  I'm very happy with my decision.


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## tjf67 (Jul 17, 2010)

Buy american


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## bigbog (Jul 17, 2010)

Tough call Root.  Depends on how you view the mileage you put on per week...and what you get out of it.  Legit reasons either way....

a lot of help eh'.....


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## riverc0il (Jul 18, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Buy american


http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/119995/article.html

A couple years old but very much relevant. Many domestic branded cars are produced overseas and many foreign branded cars are produced (and put people to work) in America. What is American? The brand, where the parts come from, or where the car is put together? No car is 100% "American" no more than anything you would purchase in a Best Buy.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 18, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Buy american





riverc0il said:


> http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/119995/article.html
> 
> A couple years old but very much relevant. Many domestic branded cars are produced overseas and many foreign branded cars are produced (and put people to work) in America. What is American? The brand, where the parts come from, or where the car is put together? No car is 100% "American" no more than anything you would purchase in a Best Buy.



http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=78936


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## RootDKJ (Jul 18, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Buy american


I have an "American" car now and I think it's crap.  Out of the 15 or so Ford Escapes my company bought in 2008, at least 8 of them have needed over $1K in service after 60K miles.  Why would I consider buying another?? :dunce:


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## Marc (Jul 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I have an "American" car now and I think it's crap.  Out of the 15 or so Ford Escapes my company bought in 2008, at least 8 of them have needed over $1K in service after 60K miles.  Why would I consider buying another?? :dunce:



Because if we all continue buying pieces of crap without regard for quality or value, surely that will provide the necessary motivation for manufacturers to make higher quality cars.


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## tjf67 (Jul 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I have an "American" car now and I think it's crap.  Out of the 15 or so Ford Escapes my company bought in 2008, at least 8 of them have needed over $1K in service after 60K miles.  Why would I consider buying another?? :dunce:



I bought a Honda and needed new tires and Brakes after 20k miles.  That was about 1k in expenses.  I think people are critical of American car companies and less critical of foreign car companies.    Just saying I understand where you are coming from but at some point we should start looking in our back yards and try to keep some money in the US.   Most of us here are white collar workers.  The home offices for the American companies are here and they employed a lot of people.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 19, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I bought a Honda and needed new tires and Brakes after 20k miles.  That was about 1k in expenses.  I think people are critical of American car companies and less critical of foreign car companies.    Just saying I understand where you are coming from but at some point we should start looking in our back yards and try to keep some money in the US.   Most of us here are white collar workers.  The home offices for the American companies are here and they employed a lot of people.



If that was a Subaru your brakes would've been covered under warranty, AND your tires would've been pro-rated......put that in your pipe and smoke it. :beer:


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## campgottagopee (Jul 19, 2010)

Philpug said:


> If interested in a Volvo. Contact Frank Katen (Used Car Mgr) at Stillman Volvo in West Chester Pa.* He is one of the few straight-forward honest people in the car business.* Yeah, I said all that in one sentence.



Spoke like a guy who couldn't hack it in the car biz.....:-D


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## tjf67 (Jul 19, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> If that was a Subaru your brakes would've been covered under warranty, AND your tires would've been pro-rated......put that in your pipe and smoke it. :beer:




I have better stuff for my pipe.  :razz:


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## campgottagopee (Jul 19, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I have better stuff for my pipe.  :razz:



Was hoping, for your sake, that you did.....


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## Geoff (Jul 19, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> I bought a Honda and needed new tires and Brakes after 20k miles.



If you smoked the brakes and the tires at 20K miles, you were flogging the hell out of the car.   Remind me to never buy a used car from you.


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## o3jeff (Jul 19, 2010)

The original brake pads on Honda/Acura's are shit. Mine were shot when I traded the Acura in at 26k and know someone else who thru them pretty quick. And by no means did I beat on the car.


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## Geoff (Jul 19, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> The original brake pads on Honda/Acura's are shit. Mine were shot when I traded the Acura in at 26k and know someone else who thru them pretty quick. And by no means did I beat on the car.



And I'm sure you blew through the tires at 20K too.   I get 20K out of Blizzaks.   Those rock hard stock tires on a Jap econobox last for centuries.

I don't care how soft your brake pads are.   If you're chewing through them in 20K miles, you probably either suck as a driver or are using your car as a toy.


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## o3jeff (Jul 19, 2010)

Geoff said:


> And I'm sure you blew through the tires at 20K too.   I get 20K out of Blizzaks.   Those rock hard stock tires on a Jap econobox last for centuries.
> 
> I don't care how soft your brake pads are.   If you're chewing through them in 20K miles, you probably either suck as a driver or are using your car as a toy.



Tires lasted fine, just the rear brakes
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/judge-approves-preliminary-settlement-of-honda-brake-suit/
I guess I just suck as a driver.


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## bigbog (Jul 19, 2010)

Most companies, other than for the top-line models, try to save $$$ by integrating the cheapest stock components, like inexpensive PC manufacturers do.  Some parts are not scrutinized...so some are often pretty good components..and some aren't so good.
$.01


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## RootDKJ (Jul 19, 2010)

Marc said:


> Because if we all continue buying pieces of crap without regard for quality or value, surely that will provide the necessary motivation for manufacturers to make higher quality cars.


Sounds like a line from a Mel Brooks movie.



tjf67 said:


> Buy american





tjf67 said:


> I bought a Honda..



So I should buy American, but you bought a Honda? :blink: 



campgottagopee said:


> If that was a Subaru your brakes would've been covered under warranty, AND your tires would've been pro-rated......put that in your pipe and smoke it. :beer:





tjf67 said:


> I have better stuff for my pipe.  :razz:





campgottagopee said:


> Was hoping, for your sake, that you did.....



I like the direction this thread is heading :lol:


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## campgottagopee (Jul 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Sounds like a line from a Mel Brooks movie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you get a +1


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## tjf67 (Jul 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Sounds like a line from a Mel Brooks movie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well my wife did but I make the payments.  You know how that goes.


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## hammer (Jul 19, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> If that was a Subaru your brakes would've been covered under warranty, AND your tires would've been pro-rated......put that in your pipe and smoke it. :beer:


Thought most warranties would not cover wear items like brakes...does Subaru have a noted exception or is this one of those "goodwill" warranties?


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## hammer (Jul 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I have an "American" car now and I think it's crap.  Out of the 15 or so Ford Escapes my company bought in 2008, at least 8 of them have needed over $1K in service after 60K miles.  Why would I consider buying another?? :dunce:


If you are concerned about reliability then why Volvo?  Don't know about the XC60s because they are still new, but Volvos don't have a reputation of being the most reliable cars...not the worst by any means but still not quite on par with Japanese brands.


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## campgottagopee (Jul 19, 2010)

hammer said:


> Thought most warranties would not cover wear items like brakes...does Subaru have a noted exception or is this one of those "goodwill" warranties?



100% warranty---most will cover wearables for 12mo/12k (they call it an "adjustment" period)---subie covers ALL wearables for 36mo/36k---wipers, bulbs, brake pads, rotors, etc.....


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## hammer (Jul 19, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> 100% warranty---most will cover wearables for 12mo/12k (they call it an "adjustment" period)---subie covers ALL wearables for 36mo/36k---wipers, bulbs, brake pads, rotors, etc.....


OK, good to know.  Have 5 yr/60k wearable on my Volvo although I have to figure out how to know if my wipers are worn so I can get a new pair.  Also hoping that I will go through one set of brakes in that time/mileage period and not at 70K.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 19, 2010)

hammer said:


> If you are concerned about reliability then why Volvo?  Don't know about the XC60s because they are still new, but Volvos don't have a reputation of being the most reliable cars...not the worst by any means but still not quite on par with Japanese brands.


 Reliability of the hybrid system is my major concern and Ford's unwillingness to cover a hybrid unique component under the hybrid warrenty.  Volvo's warranty is 60K and covers wear & tear on brakes and rotors, not tires, but yes on wiper blades.


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## hammer (Jul 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Reliability of the hybrid system is my major concern and Ford's unwillingness to cover a hybrid unique component under the hybrid warrenty.  Volvo's warranty is 60K and covers wear & tear on brakes and rotors, not tires, but yes on wiper blades.


Hear you on the warranty...I have a 2009 S40 with the same plan and the only reason why I've spent $$ on maintenance so far is that I ask for stuff above and beyond base maintenance (tire balance at 15K, full synthetic oil).  One warranty repair so far and the only complaint is that the car was in the shop for 4 days.

Didn't know how long you were planning on keeping the car.  I plan on having mine for some time after the warranty expires and I'm hoping that I won't have expensive repair bills down the road...but for now it's a nice ride.


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## Philpug (Jul 20, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Spoke like a guy who couldn't hack it in the car biz.....:-D


LOL, it was a matter of choice to get out. I did, you didn't. :lol::lol:


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## mlctvt (Jul 20, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> So I should buy American, but you bought a Honda? :blink:



According to Cars.com the Honda Accord is the second most "American" car you can buy. The Toyota Camry is number 1. Kinda said but all American car brands have more foreign content than these. 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Camry-and-Accord-Most-prnews-2899404498.html?x=0&.v=1


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## tjf67 (Jul 20, 2010)

mlctvt said:


> According to Cars.com the Honda Accord is the second most "American" car you can buy. The Toyota Camry is number 1. Kinda said but all American car brands have more foreign content than these.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Camry-and-Accord-Most-prnews-2899404498.html?x=0&.v=1



Thats only part of the story.  WHere are the home offices and how many people do they employ.


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## mlctvt (Jul 20, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Thats only part of the story.  WHere are the home offices and how many people do they employ.



Yews, I'd like to see the figures too. The problem is most reports I've seen the US companies combine all of North America in their numbers.
You can find US Federal reports on Honda and Toyota employment but it's more difficult to get the same data for Ford or GM for the US only.


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## hammer (Jul 20, 2010)

Must resist temptation to get on soapbox...:razz:


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## wa-loaf (Jul 20, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Thats only part of the story.  WHere are the home offices and how many people do they employ.



If you are going to go that route you need to count all the employees of the American parts suppliers. And ask why GM/Ford/Chrysler don't support local companies themselves?


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## tjf67 (Jul 20, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> If you are going to go that route you need to count all the employees of the American parts suppliers. And ask why GM/Ford/Chrysler don't support local companies themselves?



I agree we should be supporting them if they can put out a quality product.   It makes no sense to me why we ship all our money to other countries to produce things that we can do here ourselves.  If quality were not an issue I would spend more money to buy things made in America.


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## jaywbigred (Jul 22, 2010)

Root, my coworker had a similar issue with Smythe. I think small dealers in "upscale" towns have less incentive to budge on prices/trade-ins because they aren't volume driven business models.  My family has had the same experience with the Welsh dealership in Far Hills, and, to a lesser extent both Audi of Bernardsville and Bernardsville VW. I had a much easier time negotiating with bigger dealerships during my last 2 rounds of (albeit used) car buying-- I bought a ski car in late May, and a new every-day-car last night!


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## hammer (Jul 22, 2010)

So...any pictures of the new ride?

Also, does the car have leather or the T-Tec?  Been pretty happy with the leather on my S40 so far, although it feels different than the leather on the S80 loaner car I drove about a month ago.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 22, 2010)

jaywbigred said:


> Root, my coworker had a similar issue with Smythe. I think small dealers in "upscale" towns have less incentive to budge on prices/trade-ins because they aren't volume driven business models.  My family has had the same experience with the Welsh dealership in Far Hills, and, to a lesser extent both Audi of Bernardsville and Bernardsville VW. I had a much easier time negotiating with bigger dealerships during my last 2 rounds of (albeit used) car buying-- I bought a ski car in late May, and a new every-day-car last night!


Thanks for the info.  What did you get?


hammer said:


> So...any pictures of the new ride?
> 
> Also, does the car have leather or the T-Tec?  Been pretty happy with the leather on my S40 so far, although it feels different than the leather on the S80 loaner car I drove about a month ago.



I took a few pics when I picked it up on Tuesday, but I haven't uploaded them yet.  I'll do that tonight if I get home at a decent hour.  I have the leather and it feels different then the '08 XC90 we bought in January.  Neither is bad, they are just different.  

I love driving this car.  It's nice to have something with a little bit of power again.  We're thinking about heading up to the Catskills for the weekend, just to get away for a bit, maybe hit up Woodstock.  I volunteered to drive


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## campgottagopee (Jul 22, 2010)

Philpug said:


> LOL, it was a matter of choice to get out. I did, you didn't. :lol::lol:



That's wat they all say....:wink:


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## RootDKJ (Jul 23, 2010)

Here's the pics of the new car.



























I love driving this thing.  Very exhilarating and comfortable at the same time. Handles like a dream.


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## bvibert (Jul 24, 2010)

Looks very nice Root, congrats!


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## smitty77 (Jul 25, 2010)

Geoff said:


> And I'm sure you blew through the tires at 20K too.   I get 20K out of Blizzaks.   Those rock hard stock tires on a Jap econobox last for centuries.
> 
> I don't care how soft your brake pads are.   If you're chewing through them in 20K miles, you probably either suck as a driver or are using your car as a toy.



Working in the road construction biz, I abused the hell out of a 2005 F-150 to the tune of 45-60k per YEAR and always got at least 50k out of a set of pads and tires.  Actually, I never wore out a set of pads in 200,000 miles - the rotors would warp before the pads were gone.

Contrast that to my wife's PT Cruiser that chewed up a set of tires in 27,000 miles.  It took 5 years to do it as we drive her car so sparingly (I had to replace a locked-up caliper due to UNDER-use) and she's a lot more gentle on her car than I am on my work truck.  I've put more miles on a set of Blizzaks running them ALL YEAR.  The OEM Goodyear tires were pure shit, plain and simple.  

We just bought a Dodge journey and have heard of people smoking pads and rotors on the 2009 model year vehicle in under 15,000 miles.  I'm hoping they corrected this oversight in pad material for the 2010 model - watching mine very closely.

So no, it's not always driving style.


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## andrec10 (Jul 25, 2010)

Its a dodge thing. I have a 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan (Company Car) which goes thru rotors every 20k. They all go thru rotors, but a Honda CRV I have went till 60k before needing just pads...


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## bigbog (Jul 25, 2010)

smitty77 said:


> ........ Actually, I never wore out a set of pads in 200,000 miles - the rotors would warp before the pads were gone............



That's pretty impressive!  Thinking about going 3rd party for 4x4 brake components...

Nice RootDKJ...


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## Geoff (Jul 25, 2010)

smitty77 said:


> So no, it's not always driving style.



Sounds like it's people buying crappy cars.


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## andrec10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I did not have a choice, but the car is almost free, so I cant complain. Our other two cars are an Acura and a Subie. I would never buy a Dodge, even though the new Jeep Grand Cherokee is REAL nice, but they need a year to work the bugs out of it.


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## jaja111 (Jul 25, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> I did not have a choice, but the car is almost free, so I cant complain. Our other two cars are an Acura and a Subie. I would never buy a Dodge, even though the new Jeep Grand Cherokee is REAL nice, but they need a year to work the bugs out of it.



They've already had 30 years to work the bugs out. Chrysler products should be outlawed and the company held liable for one of the biggest scams / ripoffs of those past years. I work in the automotive business and hang my head low in shame when I see Chryslers for sale to the general hard working public. I beg anyone to never buy a Chrysler product.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 26, 2010)

I took the XC60 for it's 1st ride into the mountains a little ahead of schedule 8)


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## Glenn (Jul 26, 2010)

Awesome Root! Nice choice!


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## RootDKJ (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks!


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## smitty77 (Jul 26, 2010)

jaja111 said:


> They've already had 30 years to work the bugs out. Chrysler products should be outlawed and the company held liable for one of the biggest scams / ripoffs of those past years. I work in the automotive business and hang my head low in shame when I see Chryslers for sale to the general hard working public. I beg anyone to never buy a Chrysler product.



Funny, didn't have a lick of trouble in 7 years with our PT (aside from the caliper issue), but we only put 42,000 on it in that time frame.  Real happy with the new Journey so far.  For me it's features for the price.  To get what I'm driving now in another brand would cost me $10,000 more (in my case 33% more).  And yes, I assume there are reasons for the price difference, but I can do a lot of repairs after the 3 year warranty for that 10 grand.

Any brand can have it's problems - my dad bought a Forrester in it's debut model year (his gut told him to wait, but he needed a car) and he had problem after problem.  Never looked at another Subaru again.

I loved my Ford company truck.  We have a whole fleet of them and most roll to 300,000 before the company sells them off after a LOT of abuse.  They started buying Toyotas over the last few years and got me a 2010 Tacoma 2wd in January.  My first impression still holds after 6 months and 10,000 miles - piece of SHIT.



bigbog said:


> That's pretty impressive!  Thinking about going 3rd party for 4x4 brake components...
> 
> Nice RootDKJ...



Granted I didn't do a lot of braking as my driving was mostly highway, but they still saw their share of city driving in Hartford, Providence, Worcester, etc.  The rotors would start pulsing around 45k, and I would wait until they started to feel like the space shuttle re-entering the atmosphere before I had them replaced, sometime around 55k..

Don't drive anywhere near those kinds of miles now, thankfully.

And back on the topic.......

Nice ride RootDKJ.  Always wished I could afford a pimpin' Volvo like that.


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## jaywbigred (Jul 26, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I took the XC60 for it's 1st ride into the mountains a little ahead of schedule 8)



Great last shot there Root! Nice car! I like what Volvo has done with their rear badging.


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## WJenness (Jul 26, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


>








:beer:

-w


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## bvibert (Jul 26, 2010)

WJenness said:


> :beer:
> 
> -w



Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. :lol:


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## ctenidae (Jul 26, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. :lol:



We used to call that a "Texas Park"


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 26, 2010)

Nice wheels Rooter --luv the color


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## Trekchick (Jul 26, 2010)

My favourite car to maintain was that color, I think Inferno Red.
My current car is dark blue and sucks to keep clean.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 26, 2010)

Warp Daddy said:


> Nice wheels Rooter --luv the color





Trekchick said:


> My favourite car to maintain was that color, I think Inferno Red.
> My current car is dark blue and sucks to keep clean.



Thanks.  The color is officially called "Maple Red".  I like it.  

I actually got a call from Ford today from Fleet Services, parts and maintenance dept.  He asked for scans of the 6 invoices that show the water pump was replaced and can pass them over to parts engineering.  Gave me his email address and office #.


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## bigbog (Jul 27, 2010)

...that _is_ a nice shade of red...


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## Warp Daddy (Jul 27, 2010)

i had a Saab 900 T  and a Jetta GT  both in that same color but with deep tan leather interior . What was really cool was they looked clean even when they weren't   and being a car freak i like that


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## Philpug (Jul 27, 2010)

One of the first Volvos that doesn't look like the box it came in. Congrats, enjoy the best seats in the business.


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## RootDKJ (Sep 4, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I'm less then thrilled that Ford isn't standing behind their product.  I found out today that two more people have had the same problem with the battery water pump.  That makes a total of 6 fleet vehicles now.  Another guy needed to have some pretty major work done to the steering system and I heard about another where the rear drive-train disintegrated.  I know the Escape has sold well the past 2-3 years, but there's probably not many of them pushing 60K in mileage and some problems seem to be showing up.  Time for me to unload this car.





RootDKJ said:


> I actually got a call from Ford today from Fleet Services, parts and maintenance dept.  He asked for scans of the 6 invoices that show the water pump was replaced and can pass them over to parts engineering.  Gave me his email address and office #.



I got an email from Ford Fleet Services, Philadelphia Area Parts Manager today.  They are going to refund me $738 out of the $1100 I paid to have the hybrid repaired.  While I think they should cover it all, I'm going to cash that check before going after them for the rest. They are also going to issue my company a check for $1245 to cover some of the repairs they've had to shell out for the vehicles they own.  

The guy also hinted at the fact that Ford might be issuing a TSB or a full recall about the hybrid battery water pump issue.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 4, 2010)

...you should make this a poll


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