# Death of Retail?



## jimk (May 12, 2017)

We've seen a lot of ski retailers go under in recent years.  Seems like many regular, large retailers have or will soon go under.  Death watch in 2017 includes Penney's, Sears, Men's Wearhouse/Jos A. Bank, Casual Male, and a bunch of women's wear shops.  When/Where is this going to end?   I'm very old school and have never bought an article of clothing or shoes/boots off Amazon.  Is everyone comfortable losing tons of brick and morter stores for the stuff of life?  What happens to the outlets and the TJ Maxx's when there are no original clothing manufacturers:-o  For those who live in the suit and tie world, where do you go for a decent, affordable suit if places like Macy's go under?


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## dlague (May 12, 2017)

It is a funny trend!  The big stores came in and squashed the smaller main street businesses.  Now online shopping has been slowly squashing brick and mortar big stores but revitalization of main streets seem to be brining back the smaller stores that are more specialized.  It is a vicious cycle.  Some of the bigger stores will remain with an online strategy.  We have taken to buying most of our ski gear online unless we happen to walk through a ski shop and see a good clearance sale.

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## JimG. (May 12, 2017)

This is what people want...dlague just said it, he doesn't go into a store unless he can get a going out of business sale.

I still enjoy(ed) browsing through a retail store but my shopping is pretty limited in terms of interest level. Outdoor oriented all the way. I like to see and hold things I'm about to purchase. 

Soon we won't be talking about "full employment", whatever that means. And this trend will only accelerate over the next 20 years.


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## JimG. (May 12, 2017)

jimk said:


> For those who live in the suit and tie world, where do you go for a decent, affordable suit if places like Macy's go under?



Your cell phone will take your measurements and your custom suit will be delivered by a drone.


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## Glenn (May 12, 2017)

We use Amazon Prime a lot. The two day shipping is great. As cord cutters, we'll watch shows through the video service. Prime music has been nice as well. Anyways, I haven't been to a mall in years. I gave that up years ago around Christmas time. My wife will visit stores every so often. Funny, she has started going to some smaller, main street non chain stores for clothing at times. 

It's all how tastes and preferences have shifted over the years. 

We still buy ski gear at ski shops. Tent sales have proven awesome. You just have to know when to go.


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## Edd (May 12, 2017)

Every Apple Store I've gone into is crazy busy. Amazon opened a bookstore in Seattle not long ago. Kittery Trading Post is usually very busy and LL Bean seems to do well. The stores just need right approach. Walking into a Sears is instantly depressing.


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## benski (May 12, 2017)

Edd said:


> Every Apple Store I've gone into is crazy busy. Amazon opened a bookstore in Seattle not long ago. Kittery Trading Post is usually very busy and LL Bean seems to do well. The stores just need right approach. Walking into a Sears is instantly depressing.



Apple has the right idea with strong customer service in its stores. A lot of brick and mortar stores try competing by being cheeper but that's nearly impossible due to all there fixed costs and as a result the service suffers, making them more dependent on price for business.


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## dlague (May 12, 2017)

Glenn said:


> We use Amazon Prime a lot. The two day shipping is great. As cord cutters, we'll watch shows through the video service. Prime music has been nice as well. Anyways, I haven't been to a mall in years. I gave that up years ago around Christmas time. My wife will visit stores every so often. Funny, she has started going to some smaller, main street non chain stores for clothing at times.
> 
> It's all how tastes and preferences have shifted over the years.
> 
> We still buy ski gear at ski shops. Tent sales have proven awesome. You just have to know when to go.


Tent sales are good, I agree.  We have gone to the one in North Conway and found good deals.  But we know what sizes we wear for ski boots (do not required boot fitting) and outer layers and base layers.  I research skis and have demoed skis in the past so online shopping for these products are easy.  Helmets are a hands on deal for us.

The problem with shopping for some things is the driving around.  You either accept a specific stores price or drive around until satisfied.  Online allows you quickly compare prices.  Plus most sites offer free shipping and returns (only happened once).  

I dislike going to sports stores to look around.

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## thetrailboss (May 12, 2017)

jimk said:


> We've seen a lot of ski retailers go under in recent years.  Seems like many regular, large retailers have or will soon go under.  Death watch in 2017 includes Penney's, Sears, Men's Wearhouse/Jos A. Bank, Casual Male, and a bunch of women's wear shops.  When/Where is this going to end?   I'm very old school and have never bought an article of clothing or shoes/boots off Amazon.  Is everyone comfortable losing tons of brick and morter stores for the stuff of life?  What happens to the outlets and the TJ Maxx's when there are no original clothing manufacturers:-o  For those who live in the suit and tie world, where do you go for a decent, affordable suit if places like Macy's go under?



So let's breakdown some of these named businesses.  

JC Penney's:  they are not really keeping up with the trends.  Lots of real estate.  Shifting markets.  No real internet presence from what I see.  Simply a has-been that is not keeping up with the times.  

Sears:  One only has to listen to a business channel or read some business websites to find PLENTY of commentary about this trainwreck.  It's a slow, painful death for this once great retailer.  Now being run by a group that is making money by scrapping it and selling off the place piecemeal.  Wow.  Just wow.  In 20 years it has gone from top retailer to laughing stock.

Men's Wearhouse/JAB:  I think these two merged...maybe I am wrong.  MW had a mini-crisis when they DUMPED their spokesman/founder.  Identity issues in my book.  Again, no innovation in their retail.  Expensive prices.  Changing trends.  Young men no longer really wear suits to work....those that have jobs.  Those that have high end jobs are finding that dress codes are more relaxed.  

Casual Male:  no idea who the hell these guys are.  What does that tell you?  

Women's Wear:  a saturated marketplace.  

Overall, folks have less disposable income.  There are niche stores that appeal to those that do.  Folks are penny pinching by going to TJ Maxx or thrift stores.  And a lot of younger folks want to do more with less.


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## Scruffy (May 13, 2017)

I, personally, can't stand buying clothes on-line. I guess I'm fussy about the fit. I need to try them on, and hate shipping back stuff.


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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2017)

I jus read that even WalMart closed stores last year....they are going more internet.  And they closed a significant number of stores.  I will find and post the article.  It also pointed to Macy's, JCP, and Sports Authority (RIP).


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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2017)

http://www.bankrate.com/lifestyle/8...tb_0090f2af9880b62d763c52f1fa5905587f#slide=8




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## thetrailboss (May 13, 2017)

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/22/news/credit-suisse-retail/index.html


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## jimk (May 13, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So let's breakdown some of these named businesses.
> 
> JC Penney's:  they are not really keeping up with the trends.  Lots of real estate.  Shifting markets.  No real internet presence from what I see.  Simply a has-been that is not keeping up with the times.
> 
> ...



All good points.  I'm a creature of my demographic...old, male, white collar.  You're right about ties.  To me they are a badge of achievement, to the under 35 crowd they mean boredom and failure.  All the young tech millionaires don't own a tie


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## SkiFanE (May 13, 2017)

Sears uswd to be decent - one a few miles away and we've bought many appliances from then and kids clothes.  Now it's useless with no help and nothing worth buying. 

BUT that doesn't mean retail is dead. They turned the second floor of Sears into a Primark - great cheap clothes - that place is hopping.  

But the up to 40yo group buys most online. Some get everything from amazon-TP included. I shook my head and their argument was sound. They don't have to lug it into / out of car and it's much cheaper than store. Why not?  But I can't imagine giving up my weekly grocery trip. Clothes I fail at online. I do like to but small electronic things online - easy to get reviews and order exactly what you want.


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## dlague (May 13, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Sears uswd to be decent - one a few miles away and we've bought many appliances from then and kids clothes.  Now it's useless with no help and nothing worth buying.
> 
> BUT that doesn't mean retail is dead. They turned the second floor of Sears into a Primark - great cheap clothes - that place is hopping.
> 
> But the up to 40yo group buys most online. Some get everything from amazon-TP included. I shook my head and their argument was sound. They don't have to lug it into / out of car and it's much cheaper than store. Why not?  But I can't imagine giving up my weekly grocery trip. Clothes I fail at online. I do like to but small electronic things online - easy to get reviews and order exactly what you want.


I never really have been a fan of weekly routine things that are not recreational.  So groceries are a  necessary evil.  But that too is being resolved.  King Sooper here allows you to order online and they bag it and bring it to your car when you arrive.  While we have not adapted to that yet the grocery solution has been approached for the past 15-20 years.  Around Boston there is Peapod.  It will catch on soon.

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## deadheadskier (May 13, 2017)

Hannaford has the pick up service too.  I could see using it for stuff like paper towels, but not fish, meats or produce.  

Overall I enjoy grocery shopping. Not something I'm interested in trying to streamline the process. 

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## drjeff (May 13, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Hannaford has the pick up service too.  I could see using it for stuff like paper towels, but not fish, meats or produce.
> 
> Overall I enjoy grocery shopping. Not something I'm interested in trying to streamline the process.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Agree 100%!!

Something about physically myself checking out produce (and sometimes getting ideas when I see something I didn't think I was looking for produce wise), and I could never give up looking at what's in the butcher case and talking with the butcher, or the fish counter staff, the deli staff and the bakery staff at my local super market. 

While I could see clicking a box online for say my kids favorite cereal, or the families preferred box of dry pasta or laundry detergent etc, there's something about actually using one's sense of sight, smell, touch and sometimes even hearing (like the sound a ripe canteloup makes when you tap on it) that as someone that enjoys the start to finish cooking process could never give up. Kind of like how atleast psychologically and produce grown in my own garden and harvested and prepared by me and my family, always tastes better than anything I can buy at my local farmer's market or grocery store 

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## yeggous (May 14, 2017)

jimk said:


> All good points.  I'm a creature of my demographic...old, male, white collar.  You're right about ties.  To me they are a badge of achievement, to the under 35 crowd they mean boredom and failure.  All the young tech millionaires don't own a tie



As a young techie I will tell you that I own several ties, but I only wear one a couple times per year. Just saying.


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## dlague (May 14, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Agree 100%!!
> 
> Something about physically myself checking out produce (and sometimes getting ideas when I see something I didn't think I was looking for produce wise), and I could never give up looking at what's in the butcher case and talking with the butcher, or the fish counter staff, the deli staff and the bakery staff at my local super market.
> 
> ...


Meats and produce are same reason we don't do ir.

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## Glenn (May 14, 2017)

Grocery shopping can be a chore.  The stores are laid out to maximize your time.  I get it, they have to make money.  But it takes longer than it has to.  And the lines at checkout; there has to be a more efficient way to cash out.  

I rad an article last week the WSJ that some European retailers (H&M) are actually expanding their footprint in the US.


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## Edd (May 14, 2017)

We were fortunate to have a small grocery store open across the street last year. The place is barely as big as a 7-11 but they have an excellent selection with a butcher counter, good beer and wine, and so on. It's pricier than a large chain but it worth it and serves 90% of our needs.


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## SkiFanE (May 14, 2017)

Glenn said:


> Grocery shopping can be a chore.  The stores are laid out to maximize your time.  I get it, they have to make money.  But it takes longer than it has to.  And the lines at checkout; there has to be a more efficient way to cash out.
> 
> I rad an article last week the WSJ that some European retailers (H&M) are actually expanding their footprint in the US.


I'm a Market Basket fan. The prices and service are excellent and only at peak times are there bad lines. Compared to my towns Stop & Shop - so expensive, long lines, zero service - I wonder how they stay in business. Long lines bc they can't be bothered to staff.  Small places are generally very expensive compared to MB - so only go in a pinch. I do love Foodies in Boston (now one in Belmont) - worth paying more for. But hate give S&S any of my business. 

I cant imagine grocery shopping delivery - I tried Roach Brothers once - never did again - didn't feel it was worth it (there was a substation and something else I forgot). I have shopping down to a science - do it 50 times/year so I should be efficient by now!


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## xwhaler (May 14, 2017)

MB is great.  They are always so much better price wise than the Hannaford in the next town over near me

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## Edd (May 14, 2017)

Amazon Prime Video has a very good documentary about the Market Basket boycott from a few years ago. I learned a lot. That business is quite the story.


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## Jully (May 15, 2017)

Edd said:


> Amazon Prime Video has a very good documentary about the Market Basket boycott from a few years ago. I learned a lot. That business is quite the story.



Market Basket is great. Had a good friend who worked there and participated in the boycott. I shop at Aldi too (weird German grocery store). That process is extremely streamlined with miniature stores that are packed with at least everything I need.


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## Jully (May 15, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> I, personally, can't stand buying clothes on-line. I guess I'm fussy about the fit. I need to try them on, and hate shipping back stuff.



I'm quite a bit younger than most on here and I hate buying clothes online. Clothing stores won't be going away anytime soon. I just hope in 10 years TJMaxx type stores aren't my only option, but I don't think they will be. 

The chain department stores will live on, and new ones will open up and take the market by storm. Every generation going back well into the 20th century has had 'their' department store with a new company capturing each new generation. Online will not eliminate that trend, it will just change it. The department store that finds a way to more seamlessly integrate the online experience will win out.


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## JimG. (May 15, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> I cant imagine grocery shopping delivery - I tried Roach Brothers once - never did again - didn't feel it was worth it



Roach Brothers? As the name of a grocery delivery service? Really?

Who does the marketing and branding work for these businesses? Why not Listeria and Sons? Or Salmonella Inc.?


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## Jully (May 15, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Roach Brothers? As the name of a grocery delivery service? Really?
> 
> Who does the marketing and branding work for these businesses? Why not Listeria and Sons? Or Salmonella Inc.?



Roche haha. Family name I believe. Overpriced grocery store. Utterly ridiculous.


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## deadheadskier (May 15, 2017)

Jully said:


> Roche haha. Family name I believe. Overpriced grocery store. Utterly ridiculous.



It is a family name yes.  Overpriced for every day items for sure.  But, a good place to go for specialty produce and meats that you aren't likely to find in a standard grocery store. On those items, they're pretty well inline with a Whole Foods.


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## Jully (May 15, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> It is a family name yes.  Overpriced for every day items for sure.  But, a good place to go for specialty produce and meats that you aren't likely to find in a standard grocery store. On those items, they're pretty well inline with a Whole Foods.



That is very true.


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## jack97 (May 15, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> It is a family name yes.  Overpriced for every day items for sure.  But, a good place to go for specialty produce and meats that you aren't likely to find in a standard grocery store. On those items, they're pretty well inline with a Whole Foods.



There's one in the town where I've been living for over twenty years and remember one or two close by to where I have worked. IMO, they should be used as a case study on how to be successful with cheap items sellers such as MB, Hannaford and WalMart close by. 

1.They were one of the first to offer salad bars and hot food. That was the reason we knew about them at work. IMO, they have the most variety of prep food compare to other markets. Lunch and dinner time is when they lay out these items

2. As mentioned, they offer better produce and better cuts of meat than most markets.

3. They have store promotion/sales on items that at cost are about the same as WalMart, they just don't have it on all items so it forces you to look or check their weekly fliers.

4. They make it a priority to hire local kids. Its most likely their first job so it makes for good karma and loyalty to their parents. 

5. They rotate their managers which forces them to deal with the people they have and not allow the workers to get use to an entrenched management style.

And yes, they are located in middle class or upper middle class towns but they have adapted in growing competition. BTW, I heard Whole Foods is not doing so well.


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## Jully (May 16, 2017)

Those are good points about how Roche was successful. I grew up in a town with a Roche Bros so I also remember seeing all of those improvements begin to take shape. It has a big presence in the towns its in due to the kid labor force. Hadn't ever thought about it that way until now.


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## thetrailboss (May 16, 2017)

Funny how the roof box thread is merging with this one.  :lol:

To get up to speed here, EMS filed for bankruptcy last year, reorganized, and is again facing bankruptcy.  It is owned by the same company that owns and operates Bob's Sports.  

BG posted that Gander Mountain Sports is also on unsteady ground.  He also mentioned that Cabela's may merge with BPS.


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## Glenn (May 16, 2017)

Aldi is a cool store. Really interesting business model. It's the one grocery store I don't mind going into. Mainly because you can get out of there fairly quickly. I read a competitor of theirs is coming stateside, Lidl...another German grocery chain.


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## dlague (May 16, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Funny how the roof box thread is merging with this one.  :lol:
> 
> To get up to speed here, EMS filed for bankruptcy last year, reorganized, and is again facing bankruptcy.  It is owned by the same company that owns and operates Bob's Sports.
> 
> BG posted that Gander Mountain Sports is also on unsteady ground.  He also mentioned that Cabela's may merge with BPS.



That merger started last fall and fell apart in February due to regulatory issues tied to Capital One who was going to take on Cabelas' banking operations.  So Capital one stepped aside and now a new southern bank stepped in saving the merger and will take the monetary assets from the banking operations and sell the credit card business to Capital One.


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## deadheadskier (May 16, 2017)

I'll be interested to see if the Amazon Go concept takes off.  Pretty crazy to think that this well could be what most retail looks like in the not too distant future.  

https://www.wired.com/2016/12/amazon-go-grocery-store/


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## JimG. (May 16, 2017)

jack97 said:


> There's one in the town where I've been living for over twenty years and remember one or two close by to where I have worked. IMO, they should be used as a case study on how to be successful with cheap items sellers such as MB, Hannaford and WalMart close by.
> 
> 1.They were one of the first to offer salad bars and hot food. That was the reason we knew about them at work. IMO, they have the most variety of prep food compare to other markets. Lunch and dinner time is when they lay out these items
> 
> ...



Sounds a lot like Stew Leonard's and Adam's Fairacre Farms in my area.


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## jimk (May 16, 2017)

Looked at link to amazon go checkout-less shopping and it reminded me of something my brother told me.  My bro works in the vending machine business where he says there is revolution going on.  His company is installing mini 7-11 type shops inside office buildings with no human oversight.  Shelves in the shop are stocked with candy, snacks, soda, etc. including maybe 30% of the kinds and quantity of things in a 7-11.  The shops have one or two self-checkout machines like those at many current grocery stores.  You are on your honor to swipe and pay for all your stuff just like self checkout at grocery.  There is a camera or two in the shop to monitor things.  The companies in the office building have agreed with the vending company to assist with prosecution of anyone who is detected of stealing stuff including possibility of job termination.   My bro reports stealing has been a non-factor and revenue is many times the level of a batch of vending machines in the same amount of space because people buy stuff to last for the week, rather than for the next hour.  Plus, because these mini-shops are so popular with clients the vending company can negotiate paying less of a percentage of the profits to the businesses for access to set up these mini-shops instead of vending machines.  Oops, I digress :razz:


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## jack97 (May 16, 2017)

^^^ Self checkout was something I was thinking about in terms of how current retailers needs to adapt. I like the convenience and will shop at Home Depot and WalMart for that reason.


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## moresnow (May 16, 2017)

jack97 said:


> ^^^ Self checkout was something I was thinking about in terms of how current retailers needs to adapt. I like the convenience and will shop at Home Depot and WalMart for that reason.


The robots are taking our jobs!


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## prsboogie (May 17, 2017)

moresnow said:


> The robots are taking our jobs!


It's not like kids today are rushing out to get these types of jobs. When I was in HS I couldn't wait to be old enough to get a part time job. I knew there were things I wanted and didn't want my parents paying for. I wanted to go to concerts and they didn't have the extra money for tickets and tee shirts (first show was $17). Also I wanted a car and my license which again there wasn't extra money around for this shit. Today kids can't be bothered with driving and that  drives me nuts. Permitted on my 16th birthday and licensed two days after turning 16-1/2! 

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## benski (May 17, 2017)

prsboogie said:


> It's not like kids today are rushing out to get these types of jobs. When I was in HS I couldn't wait to be old enough to get a part time job. I knew there were things I wanted and didn't want my parents paying for. I wanted to go to concerts and they didn't have the extra money for tickets and tee shirts (first show was $17). Also I wanted a car and my license which again there wasn't extra money around for this shit. Today kids can't be bothered with driving and that  drives me nuts. Permitted on my 16th birthday and licensed two days after turning 16-1/2!
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



It doesn't help the college application process has spiraled out of control. I don't think many kids wait to get there license. Those who wait seem to be mainly city kids who wouldn't drive anyway.


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## Jully (May 17, 2017)

prsboogie said:


> Today kids can't be bothered with driving and that  drives me nuts. Permitted on my 16th birthday and licensed two days after turning 16-1/2!
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app





benski said:


> I don't think many kids wait to get there license. Those who wait seem to be mainly city kids who wouldn't drive anyway.



Yeah wait what? What kids can't be bothered with driving these days? That's the exact opposite of how I would critique kids and driving these days haha.


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## Jully (May 17, 2017)

Glenn said:


> Aldi is a cool store. Really interesting business model. It's the one grocery store I don't mind going into. Mainly because you can get out of there fairly quickly. I read a competitor of theirs is coming stateside, Lidl...another German grocery chain.



I can shop for the week in 7 minutes, and I'm not exaggerating. It takes me 7 minutes to walk once through the vegetable section in the local stop and shop. I didn't have a problem with grocery stores until I started shopping at Aldi, now I get upset when I have to go into one. 

I hadn't heard about a competitor, interested to hear how that will play out.


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## Glenn (May 17, 2017)

I'm going to keep an eye on it as well. Aldi has been taking business from some of the larger chains who sell groceries; specifically Wal-Mart.


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## dlague (May 17, 2017)

Reminds me of Food Lion grocery stores when I lived in California.


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## SkiFanE (May 17, 2017)

One thing about Roche brothers is their service - they wheel out your carriage for you and load the car.  If $ isn't an issue, I would love to shop there 

I've been going to MB since 1990. I boycotted a few summers ago. Really no choice since they had nothing worth buying during it. But I was SO thankful they got bought by the "good" brother. My food bill nearly doubled. I was used to buying 3.99 wheel of Brie every week - at other store it was 8.99. Really had to put that in the "luxury" category - no way I'd pay that weekly. I read the MB book - good study on business practicies - suck businesses dry for owners - or be a loyal employer and community member and watch the business and $ come to you. Since MB was bought - prices have inched up in some things - but still so cheap. Brie is still $3.99 and LoL cheese is still $3+ more at S&S.  I read the interest on loan is $2000/day per store. So they have to make that up somehow.


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## jack97 (May 17, 2017)

moresnow said:


> The robots are taking our jobs!



They have and it's been going for quite some time. My high school home room teacher was the computer science teacher. He taught Basic, Cobol and Fortran to juniors and seniors. During homeroom or in my cs class, he told stories of how when he was a teenager, mid to big size companies would hire lots of workers just to add numbers in the finance dept. Although IBM (International Business Machine) was founded to build machines to perform these computational task, the cost was way too steep. It wasn't until the mid 70s that mainframes or the workstations built by DEC became affordable such that machines could replace the number adders. And then when the PC market undercut IBM and DEC then small business could streamline the finance dept to a skeleton crew. 

Ever since Babbage ~ 1830s started work on a mechanical machine (engine) to perform computation, businesses have always looked for ways to reduce labor cost. I always tell my daughter this, if there's a remote chance or you see that your job can be replace by automation then it will. Its been like that since the industrial revolution.


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## prsboogie (May 21, 2017)

benski said:


> It doesn't help the college application process has spiraled out of control. I don't think many kids wait to get there license. Those who wait seem to be mainly city kids who wouldn't drive anyway.


I have 4 nephews and nieces all in the early 20s now and they had a fairly decent number of friends, say a total of 15, 2 of them had gotten their licenses asap the last to get hers was 20. A lot of the people I work with have older teenagers who were late getting their licenses with no real passion to get it other than the parents telling them they weren't going to continue carting their asses around. None of us live in a city where you can walk to get to everything you need. 

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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2017)

prsboogie said:


> I have 4 nephews and nieces all in the early 20s now and they had a fairly decent number of friends, say a total of 15, 2 of them had gotten their licenses asap the last to get hers was 20. A lot of the people I work with have older teenagers who were late getting their licenses with no real passion to get it other than the parents telling them they weren't going to continue carting their asses around. None of us live in a city where you can walk to get to everything you need.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


I'm​ sure there are a number of factors contributing to this.  For one, the cost of cars and insurance is way higher today than when we were kids.  I don't think wages for first jobs have gone up at the same ratio.  My first car cost $1200 and it was about $500 a year to insure as a teenager.  I don't see too many $1200 cars for sale these days and I imagine the insurance is way higher for kids; even basic liability insurance on a clunker. 

The other factor is I assume that many kids are less social today due to technology.   They can "hang out" with all their friends via texting, social media etc. today.  When we were kids you had to do the unthinkable.  You physically had to go where your friends were to have social interaction! Otherwise you were stuck home alone watching TV.

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## benski (May 21, 2017)

Older kids often don't want to drive to see friends since then they won't be able to drink. It has screwed me many times. I don't think people in New York put off getting there license unless they live in manhattan. I guess Boston area must be different.


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## dlague (May 21, 2017)

benski said:


> It doesn't help the college application process has spiraled out of control. I don't think many kids wait to get there license. Those who wait seem to be mainly city kids who wouldn't drive anyway.


College application process is out of control for sure.

Our kids are required to get their license since we make sure they have a job part-time albeit but a job.  I think it builds responsibility and character.  Our kids play sports and are involved in other activities as well.  I think it is how kids are being raised that is the problem.  Parents have gotten too soft.

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## benski (May 21, 2017)

dlague said:


> College application process is out of control for sure.
> 
> Our kids are required to get their license since we make sure they have a job part-time albeit but a job.  I think it builds responsibility and character.  Our kids play sports and are involved in other activities as well.  I think it is how kids are being raised that is the problem.  Parents have gotten too soft.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



And too concerned and afraid to let there kids make mistakes. I know kids who could get cell phones and facebooks till into sophomore year of high school. I bet most of the sat prep and extra curriculars go to waist. Any hobby or job counts as an extracurricular. Colleges say they just want to see that your busy and an interesting person. SAT are probably just an easy way to eliminate people who are way out of there league since they are really inaccurate.


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## bigbog (Oct 22, 2017)

benski said:


> And are too concerned and afraid to let there kids make mistakes......



Good one benski....


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## andrec10 (Oct 22, 2017)

Kids need to learn by mistakes. My son is turning 25 this week and is now a DR. of Physical Therapy making more than I do already. He Ski raced thru college and started when he was 8 and never gave it up. Only had a few podiums. Ski racing gives you thick skin. If he made a mistake, you fix it, not me or Mom. Some of these kids these days are being turned into PUSSIES! They need to stop being Babied! Rant Over...


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## darent (Oct 22, 2017)

As a high school coach I see the pampered kids and also the ones that get it.some of these kids are so spoiled and only think of what is good for them. No Idea of team dynamics.I think that the working two parent norm has put a lot of children on their own with little adult oversight.


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