# Rack em!



## Glenn (Mar 26, 2017)

Seriously, rack your damn skis. 

Race at the mountain today and all the racers just dumped their skis wherever.  Mountain Ops should have done some surprise afternoon grooming.  








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## snoseek (Mar 26, 2017)

This bothers the hell out of me as well.


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## drjeff (Mar 26, 2017)

As a racer parent, I can 100% vouch that resorts on their race information sheets are very clear about using ski racks. The follow through by the racers and their coaches often leaves plenty of room for improvement!! 

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## benski (Mar 26, 2017)

These people should get parking tickets.


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## JimG. (Mar 26, 2017)

Looks like Hunter; if I had my way management would run a snow cat over all of that equipment.

If I'm using my rock skis I make it a point to ski over as much equipment as I can without going out of my way. 

Race parents love me.


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## gmcunni (Mar 26, 2017)

we need a grump old man to walk out and start flinging them all in different directions.


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## JimG. (Mar 26, 2017)

gmcunni said:


> we need a grump old man to walk out and start flinging them all in different directions.



I resemble that remark!


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## snoseek (Mar 26, 2017)

gmcunni said:


> we need a grump old man to walk out and start flinging them all in different directions.



My father is a combo of this and JimG!


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## VTKilarney (Mar 26, 2017)

I usually "accidentally" knock some poles over.  Passive aggressive and meaningless, I know, but these yard sales annoy the hell out of me.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 26, 2017)

If I were a coach my policy would be quite simple. Those who leave their skis on the ground are disqualified from participating in the next race. 

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## Not Sure (Mar 26, 2017)

I'm thinking that cluster is safer than kids racking their skis , seen plenty pairs slide off and fall cause the persons too much in a hurry to make sure they are in right. If at least they had some order with rows would'nt be too bad.

ps  I don't fling em just kick some snow on ala Billy Martin


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 26, 2017)

JimG. said:


> If I'm using my rock skis I make it a point to ski over as much equipment as I can without going out of my way..



Nice. "Accidentally" stepping on the skis with hard soled boots is another satisfying way of disrespecting the entitled ppl who park skis like that. Though I'll admit I sometimes get conflicted and feel bad for the skis. "It's not my fault" they say sometimes.


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 26, 2017)

I tell my kids that I will lock their skis in my car if they leave them on the ground.  

It's one thing if the racks are completely full, but clearly they weren't in this case.  



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## BenedictGomez (Mar 26, 2017)

Not shocking.  The parents are often worse than and more entitled than the kids these days.


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## Not Sure (Mar 26, 2017)




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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2017)

Glenn said:


> Seriously, rack your damn skis.
> 
> Race at the mountain today and all the racers just dumped their skis wherever.  Mountain Ops should have done some surprise afternoon grooming.
> 
> ...



Looks about right. Several thousand dollars and hours of hard work tuning to just dump them on the ground.


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## mrvpilgrim (Mar 26, 2017)

up at Mount Ellen on particularly egregious days they will send the ambassadors out to pick them up and randomly put them on the racks. nothing like a little scavenger hunt to find your  skis to discourage the behavior


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2017)

This drives me nuts as well, although it isn't just racers. I plenty of non-racers doing this all the time even when racks are half empty. Last year at Mt Ellen Sugarbush specifically had signs at the base telling people not to leave their skis on the ground. At one point they even had staff picking them up and moving them into racks, although I don't know whether they kept up with doing that.


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## cdskier (Mar 26, 2017)

mrvpilgrim said:


> up at Mount Ellen on particularly egregious days they will send the ambassadors out to pick them up and randomly put them on the racks. nothing like a little scavenger hunt to find your  skis to discourage the behavior



LOL. Two of us decided to post almost the same thing at almost the exact same time. That's impressive.


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## benski (Mar 26, 2017)

cdskier said:


> This drives me nuts as well, although it isn't just racers. I plenty of non-racers doing this all the time even when racks are half empty. Last year at Mt Ellen Sugarbush specifically had signs at the base telling people not to leave their skis on the ground. At one point they even had staff picking them up and moving them into racks, although I don't know whether they kept up with doing that.



They should move them inside at owners expense like an illegally parked car, or bring up the quad, throw all the skis in a quad and leave really far from the lodge.


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## JimG. (Mar 26, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


>



Phenomenal!  

Love the slo-mo.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

That video does show how leaving skis on the ground can be dangerous though.

Although the beginning of the video has been sped up to make the fall look even more dangerous/spectacular, or for comedic effect.


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## podunk77 (Mar 27, 2017)

Someone once told me racers do that because it keeps the ski wax at the same temperature as the snow prior to their race.  I have no idea if that's true or just an attempt to justify lazy/entitled behavior.


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2017)

podunk77 said:


> Someone once told me racers do that because it keeps the ski wax at the same temperature as the snow prior to their race.  I have no idea if that's true or just an attempt to justify lazy/entitled behavior.



If that's the group at Stratton that I'm guessing it was in Glenn's pic from yesterday, those skis on the ground likely weren't even their race skis, but their slip/training skis!  Their race skis, and you're correct about the keeping the bases and the wax at snow temp, likely were clicked off soon after they exited the finish area fencing, and handed either to their parent's, a coach, or sometimes the kids themselves and taken back up to the start area for run two, or if that was after run two, their ski straps put on their race skis, and taken down to the base area.

As a racer parent, I will say that on every race fact sheet, there is in bold print, a line stating that ski racks MUST be used.....  The follow through with that line by racers/coaches isn't great, and many parents just don't care where their kids skis end up, as if something happens to them, they'll just break out the VISA card and get new stuff - espeically if that was the group of kids racing at Stratton yesterday that I think it was (the Stratton Mountain School athletes and their end of the season race as for most all Northeast ski academies, this past weekend was their last weekend of the season for the alpine competition programs), there's just a level of money from most of the parent's that is absolutely crazy!!!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2017)

If there is merit to the argument of keeping the wax at snow temperature, then perhaps the mountains hosting the races could be proactive and fence off an area with signage for the racers to store their skis.  

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## Savemeasammy (Mar 27, 2017)

So leaving them on the ground at the base lodge will keep the wax the same temp as the snow?  Perhaps these kids are forgetting that they will be riding a lift to get back to the course...?


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## Hawk (Mar 27, 2017)

I am on the other side of this.  Unless all the skis are blocking the entrances or totally blocking out the front of the building then I have no issue.  I guess that I am really not that up tight to let it bother me. I do put my skis in the rack most of the time but I am guilty of leaving them on the ground.  When I run into Alynns to go to the bathroom or drop my lunch bag I always leaven them on the ground.  Not in the way but not in the rack either.  For me it has to do with the racks the mountain provides.  If I show up and all the racks are full I leave my skis on the ground.  Mind you I am usually not in the lodge too long.  I hate the crowd indoors.


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## Not Sure (Mar 27, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> So leaving them on the ground at the base lodge will keep the wax the same temp as the snow?  Perhaps these kids are forgetting that they will be riding a lift to get back to the course...?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



1+
Leaving them in direct sun would negate any benefit and could cause another problem.
Snow around your bindings could melt and later refreeze causing a binding release fail !

Leaving them on the ground is like an invitation for theives as well, can still see the expression on my buddy's face when his Olin Mark 4 Comps got ripped off.

Edit, if I don't lock my skis I separate them


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2017)

I seem to recall a thread a few years ago about a bunch of race skis getting stolen at Hunter.  

I'm guessing these days race skis wouldn't be a real target as everyone wants 110 waisted skis!

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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2017)

I would have no problem with people leaving them on the ground if there was order to the madness.  Specifically, a designated space for that purpose.  The reality is that there are always skiers who place their skis with no concern for others.  (Blocking access, traffic, etc.)


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> So leaving them on the ground at the base lodge will keep the wax the same temp as the snow?  Perhaps these kids are forgetting that they will be riding a lift to get back to the course...?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Nope - many of the high level ski academy kids have 2 pairs of slalom skis, 2 pairs of GS skis, if age appropriate, 2 pairs of Super G skis, etc - so they have a training pair(they also call these "slip skis" as they use them while inspecting("slipping") the course before the race) and a race pair - they pretty much only ski on their race skis during their race runs. Once the run is done, they're out of that pair and onto their training pair.Their race skis, go on their shoulders, ski strapped together to the top of the course both before the 1st run and if a 2 run race discipline, between the 1st and second run, where they'll sit base down on the snow, until it's just about time to slide into the starting gate.

Does this really make a difference, for the overwhelming majority of the kids in the vast majority of the races.... As a racer parent with a non ski academy kid who's scored some decent results and regularly beats many full time ski academy kids, who only has 1 pair of skis for each discipline, not 2 pairs, who doesn't re-tune/re-wax between runs, and who racks her skis when she's inside, I am quite sure that it makes basically no difference at all!!!  It is part of the racing culture, that ski academies try and teach their big $$ paying students (most New England ski academies get in the $25 to 30K a year range for basically November 1st through the last week of March session that includes room, board, coaching, transportation to the races, etc, and others that have full time, all school year programs, that often also include on snow summer training camps as well as often a few weeks in Colorado in late Oct/early November, run $50K plus    ) to fully buy into the elite level racing culture, when the reality is that so very few of them will truly make elite level.

As with many youth sports these days, the reality is that far more kids will end up burning out from the way their parents are pushing them, than continue to thrive and develop and improve up through the ski racing ranks.  It's kind of sad as a racer parent to see when you watch many of the kids get older in the same age group as your own kids are, and see so many of them go from kids just having fun, more worried about their friends and not spend more than a minute or 2 worrying about their results after the race is over, to going to out right almost despondent crying in the finish area when they see that they finished say 14th out of 80 instead of say a top 10, then pay little attention to their racer friends, and see a parent come over and far too often start getting on their kids case about how they didn't ski such and such a gate or section of the course well, and that their result now will keep them out of such and such a next level race.....  Just sad to see


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## Glenn (Mar 27, 2017)

mrvpilgrim said:


> up at Mount Ellen on particularly egregious days they will send the ambassadors out to pick them up and randomly put them on the racks. nothing like a little scavenger hunt to find your  skis to discourage the behavior



This is brilliant! It's hard to see in the pic, but many of the skis are the same. I imagine that would cause quite the scene with multiple people running around trying to find their exact pair. Cue the Benny Hill music.

It was quite the scene in the mid mountain lodge. Gear and equipment strewn about at unattended tables. There were a few racer parent moms, but most were busy staring at their mobile device or talking on it. I just can't comprehend that much valuable equipment being left unattended in a lodge and laying outside like that. 

Jeff is correct; this was Stratton yesterday.


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## SkiFanE (Mar 27, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Nope - many of the high level ski academy kids have 2 pairs of slalom skis, 2 pairs of GS skis, if age appropriate, 2 pairs of Super G skis, etc - so they have a training pair(they also call these "slip skis" as they use them while inspecting("slipping") the course before the race) and a race pair - they pretty much only ski on their race skis during their race runs. Once the run is done, they're out of that pair and onto their training pair.Their race skis, go on their shoulders, ski strapped together to the top of the course both before the 1st run and if a 2 run race discipline, between the 1st and second run, where they'll sit base down on the snow, until it's just about time to slide into the starting gate.
> 
> Does this really make a difference, for the overwhelming majority of the kids in the vast majority of the races.... As a racer parent with a non ski academy kid who's scored some decent results and regularly beats many full time ski academy kids, who only has 1 pair of skis for each discipline, not 2 pairs, who doesn't re-tune/re-wax between runs, and who racks her skis when she's inside, I am quite sure that it makes basically no difference at all!!!  It is part of the racing culture, that ski academies try and teach their big $$ paying students (most New England ski academies get in the $25 to 30K a year range for basically November 1st through the last week of March session that includes room, board, coaching, transportation to the races, etc, and others that have full time, all school year programs, that often also include on snow summer training camps as well as often a few weeks in Colorado in late Oct/early November, run $50K plus    ) to fully buy into the elite level racing culture, when the reality is that so very few of them will truly make elite level.
> 
> As with many youth sports these days, the reality is that far more kids will end up burning out from the way their parents are pushing them, than continue to thrive and develop and improve up through the ski racing ranks.  It's kind of sad as a racer parent to see when you watch many of the kids get older in the same age group as your own kids are, and see so many of them go from kids just having fun, more worried about their friends and not spend more than a minute or 2 worrying about their results after the race is over, to going to out right almost despondent crying in the finish area when they see that they finished say 14th out of 80 instead of say a top 10, then pay little attention to their racer friends, and see a parent come over and far too often start getting on their kids case about how they didn't ski such and such a gate or section of the course well, and that their result now will keep them out of such and such a next level race.....  Just sad to see



Kinda a broad brush you're stroking there on the racers parents. I've also put 3 kids through weekend race programs. They were mediocre at best in the USSA races but oldest two did great in their HS teams - it was worth the training. All 3 bailed from race program when it became too much drills and not enough fun.  They just didn't have that gut passion.  Yet my middle kids hometown friend who was also in her weekend race program was driven. She was put skiing on those freezing cold windy days when myself and my kids were happy to stay inside. She worked her ass off to improve - any weather - she was happiest on skis and in a race course.  She finishes top 5 always and now goes to ski academy full time. Her parents didn't force the passion she has. I've seen it since she was a little kid. She is lucky to have parents and means to allow her to develop it. But her parents are not what you describe - and this kid has best sportsmanship, happiest kid and always cheering on racer mates. I think there may a bad parent every now and then, but from my view they are rare and it's the kid with the passion. To say what you observed with a parent giving tips is pretty judgemental - you don't know the kid. Maybe all week long he analyzes tapes, asks how to improve, etc etc... and if he messed up - there is a reason, and parents know their kids best. I know with my kid if I went up and said "ohhh...it's okay, you'll do better next time, I love you sweety"...she'd probably give me the nastiest look ever lol.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 27, 2017)

mrvpilgrim said:


> up at Mount Ellen on particularly egregious days they will send the ambassadors out to pick them up and randomly put them on the racks. nothing like a little scavenger hunt to find your  skis to discourage the behavior



Yup,this works.Twice I couldn't find mine and had to search the racks to find them.Thought my friends were messing with me but no.Somebody else was not happy with me leaving my skis on the ground and moved them.I certainly would never touch other peoples skis but I got the message.


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## Smellytele (Mar 27, 2017)

3 things I tell my kids:
1. never ski with your jacket totally unzipped
2. Always rack you skis
3. Never leave a table with your trash still on it or your shit all over the place - Pickup after yourselves!


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## Jully (Mar 27, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> 3 things I tell my kids:
> *1. never ski with your jacket totally unzipped*
> 2. Always rack you skis
> 3. Never leave a table with your trash still on it or your shit all over the place - Pickup after yourselves!



but then it flaps around while skiing and you look _sick_


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 27, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> 3 things I tell my kids:
> 1. never ski with your jacket totally unzipped
> 2. Always rack you skis
> 3. Never leave a table with your trash still on it or your shit all over the place - Pickup after yourselves!



I've never given a thought to the jacket unzipped thing.  However I would add:

4:  Put your poles traps on!


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Kinda a broad brush you're stroking there on the racers parents. I've also put 3 kids through weekend race programs. They were mediocre at best in the USSA races but oldest two did great in their HS teams - it was worth the training. All 3 bailed from race program when it became too much drills and not enough fun.  They just didn't have that gut passion.  Yet my middle kids hometown friend who was also in her weekend race program was driven. She was put skiing on those freezing cold windy days when myself and my kids were happy to stay inside. She worked her ass off to improve - any weather - she was happiest on skis and in a race course.  She finishes top 5 always and now goes to ski academy full time. Her parents didn't force the passion she has. I've seen it since she was a little kid. She is lucky to have parents and means to allow her to develop it. But her parents are not what you describe - and this kid has best sportsmanship, happiest kid and always cheering on racer mates. I think there may a bad parent every now and then, but from my view they are rare and it's the kid with the passion. To say what you observed with a parent giving tips is pretty judgemental - you don't know the kid. Maybe all week long he analyzes tapes, asks how to improve, etc etc... and if he messed up - there is a reason, and parents know their kids best. I know with my kid if I went up and said "ohhh...it's okay, you'll do better next time, I love you sweety"...she'd probably give me the nastiest look ever lol.



Completely not meant as a generalization off all racer and/or academy racer kids parents!  You are 100% correct in that there are many academy parents who are totally relaxed and not as I described,  heck I ski with multiple academy parents like that in  my regular circle of ski friends most every weekend!

I guess that I am a bit jaded now, as I've seen some battling within the parents of the 2 academies that are part of the council in VT that my U14 daughter races in, and by far and away, it's a group of parents from those academy kids (and by no means is it just 1 or 2 parents out of the 30 or so academy kids in the council) but when you see the kid finish the race, a parent (usually Dad) looks up from the live timing app on their phone, and starts shaking his head, and then you can see starts pointing a finger up the hill at such and such a gate, and then the kid skiing off with his/her shoulders hunched in a look of dejection, that gets me as much as the parent who is screaming at their kid because they didn't make a play in a soccer game or little league game.  That's a big issue with me!!


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## Puck it (Mar 27, 2017)

I just ski thru them to the racks and stick my poles out to the side and knock all the poles over the place.  I did this at the Loaf summit this year.


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## 180 (Mar 27, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Kinda a broad brush you're stroking there on the racers parents. I've also put 3 kids through weekend race programs. They were mediocre at best in the USSA races but oldest two did great in their HS teams - it was worth the training. All 3 bailed from race program when it became too much drills and not enough fun.  They just didn't have that gut passion.  Yet my middle kids hometown friend who was also in her weekend race program was driven. She was put skiing on those freezing cold windy days when myself and my kids were happy to stay inside. She worked her ass off to improve - any weather - she was happiest on skis and in a race course.  She finishes top 5 always and now goes to ski academy full time. Her parents didn't force the passion she has. I've seen it since she was a little kid. She is lucky to have parents and means to allow her to develop it. But her parents are not what you describe - and this kid has best sportsmanship, happiest kid and always cheering on racer mates. I think there may a bad parent every now and then, but from my view they are rare and it's the kid with the passion. To say what you observed with a parent giving tips is pretty judgemental - you don't know the kid. Maybe all week long he analyzes tapes, asks how to improve, etc etc... and if he messed up - there is a reason, and parents know their kids best. I know with my kid if I went up and said "ohhh...it's okay, you'll do better next time, I love you sweety"...she'd probably give me the nastiest look ever lol.



My Son is also a Freestyle academy kid.  He is a senior now it was a great experience for everyone.  The cost, well it is huge and some may say crazy, but that's my choice to work hard and support my kids.


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## Domeskier (Mar 27, 2017)

I get a kick out of the race parents sweating in their ankle-length parkas along the kiddie race courses on 50-degree days.  Way to go all in!


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## skiberg (Mar 27, 2017)

Z


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## Smellytele (Mar 27, 2017)

skiberg said:


> Z
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


= racer parent


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

drjeff said:


> there's just a level of money from most of the parent's that is absolutely crazy!!!



The money isnt the problem.  The attitude that "stuff" has no value because we'll just buy more if it's lost/stolen/broken is a problem, and will tend to lead to spoiled human beings.



deadheadskier said:


> *If there is merit to the argument of keeping the wax at snow temperature*, then perhaps the mountains hosting the races could be proactive and fence off an area with signage for the racers to store their skis.



I'd like to hear more on this.  My W.A.G. is that it's myth for two reasons:

1) As was already said by Smellytele, the bases will be exposed to air on the ride up and then placed on snow for a small period of time prior to the race start.  I doubt any (literally any) difference in actual temperature would be observed with say an IR laser thermometer.

2) If anything, wouldn't it actually be a slight (though again this seems silly) benefit if the base of the skis were in fact 1/10th of a degree warmer than the snow surface to slightly enhance the melt necessary for decreased friction (i.e. movement)?  In other words, just thinking about this scientifically, if we assumed the "base on snow" trick works at all, I'd think it would be a disadvantage, not an advantage, though I think the whole thing seems specious to begin with.   Unless of course it's a very cold day like 5 degrees, so the air is colder than the snow surface, but again, then we're back to #1.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> wouldn't it actually be a slight benefit if the base of the skis were in fact 1/10th of a degree warmer than the snow surface to slightly enhance the melt necessary for decreased friction (i.e. movement)?


I know that the myth about ice skates melting ice has been debunked.  If ice skate blades don't melt anything, it's hard for me to believe that skis do.

http://physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com/2011/01/physics-of-ice-skating.html


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I know that the myth about ice skates melting ice has been debunked.  If ice skate blades don't melt anything, it's hard for me to believe that skis do.



Has it been debunked?  Seems to me movement must generate heat along the surface (snow or ice) boundary.  Physics was my worst of the science disciplines, but I do recall movement creates heat in thermodynamics.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

So it's a basic rule that any skier or rider should put their equipment in the rack at a busy base area.  That's all.  Pretty simple.


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## yeggous (Mar 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Has it been debunked?  Seems to me movement must generate heat along the surface (snow or ice) boundary.  Physics was my worst of the science disciplines, but I do recall movement creates heat in thermodynamics.



It's not the friction but the pressure that melts the ice. Most substances will turn from liquid to solid when additional pressure is applied, but water is the exception. At a given temperature if you apply additional pressure, it will turn to a liquid. The skiing / skating connection here is that the pressure created by the steel edge / blade will tend to melt the ice creating a thin layer of water which reduces the friction. I have no idea if this happens in reality.

See the phase diagram for water:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#/media/File:Phase_diagram_of_water_simplified.svg
At the freezing point of water at typical atmospheric pressures, increase the pressure (up along the y-axis) will change the solid to a liquid.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2017)

Guys, seriously, it's a myth.  The pressure created by an ice skater is ten times less than is required to melt the ice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-bradley/theory-under-pressure-ska_b_2175389.html

Think about it.  If every ski was melting the snow, we would see a sheet of blue ice on every trail by the end of the day.


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## dlague (Mar 27, 2017)

Looked at the OP - I have seen this at Cannon often - just ski over them!  BTW it drives me nuts and I posted a thread about this years ago.  At Vail resorts that is a no go!  It happens a little at A Basin but generally out of the way.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2017)

racer kids are the worst. seeing them try to cut the line at burke last week and getting forcefully denied by the lifty was sweet.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> racer kids are the worst. seeing them try to cut the line at burke last week and getting forcefully denied by the lifty was sweet.



I think some young kids in general seem to have entitlement problems. Last week at Sugarbush I saw a few kids going into the "Ski School Only" line without an instructor. One kid seemed to think it wasn't right but another in the group said "we'll just say we got separated from our group".


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## The Sneak (Mar 27, 2017)

Everybody hates racer kids, right? The most entitled little $hits I have ever dealt with, they make sailing / yacht club kids seem like Eagle Scouts by comparison.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 27, 2017)

The Sneak said:


> sailing / yacht club kids...



LOL, I didn't know that was a thing!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 27, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> LOL, I didn't know that was a thing!



Oh, yeah! There most certainly is!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Guys, seriously, it's a myth.  The pressure created by an ice skater is ten times less than is required to melt the ice.
> Think about it.  If every ski was melting the snow, we would see a sheet of blue ice on every trail by the end of the day.



I'm not talking about pressure, I'm saying that I think some near microscopic melt must be occurring at the boundary of snow/skis that aids in sliding.    The "melt" would be an imperceptible level, not a river of water behind you.


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## Smellytele (Mar 27, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think some young kids in general seem to have entitlement problems. Last week at Sugarbush I saw a few kids going into the "Ski School Only" line without an instructor. One kid seemed to think it wasn't right but another in the group said "we'll just say we got separated from our group".



Yesterday at Pats peak 2 racer girls got in the single's line for a double chair (not sure why have a single's line for a double but that is a different story). When they were next in line they both went, some people said something and they said "singles can ride up together. What's you're problem?"


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## Pez (Mar 27, 2017)

burn them as an offering to the snow god, or old man winter or whatever.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2017)

the problem with that one is having a singles line for a double chair. if the only groups are doubles and quads breaking up in to 2s, then of course the singles would just pair up. stupid line is stupid. racer kids still suck.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not talking about pressure, I'm saying that I think some near microscopic melt must be occurring at the boundary of snow/skis that aids in sliding.    The "melt" would be an imperceptible level, not a river of water behind you.



If it isn't pressure, then what would cause melting?


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## Domeskier (Mar 27, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the problem with that one is having a singles line for a double chair. if the only groups are doubles and quads breaking up in to 2s, then of course the singles would just pair up. stupid line is stupid. racer kids still suck.



Yeah, these sucky racer kids are doing exactly what the mountain wants in this instance.  They want to pair up singles to prevent half-empty chairs from going up the line.  Unless a single gets in the doubles line for some reason, they will have to take two people from the singles line to make a chair.  I guess the risk to the sucky racer kids is that the liftie pulls one of them out to pair up with the single in front of them.

Not a bad system for the goal, I guess.  I don't go out of my way to pair-up with someone on a doubles line when I'm skiing alone.  This would be a good way to prevent me from wasting a seat.  I guess the other way is to force people to pair up before they get in the line.  I suspect that would be a much harder system to police.  I can see someone getting bent out of shape when doubles abuse this type of line, however.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 27, 2017)

Did anyone else think this thread was about a certain (banned IIRC) forum member first time you read the title?


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## Jully (Mar 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not talking about pressure, I'm saying that I think some near microscopic melt must be occurring at the boundary of snow/skis that aids in sliding.    The "melt" would be an imperceptible level, not a river of water behind you.



Yes. This.


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## Smellytele (Mar 27, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> Yeah, these sucky racer kids are doing exactly what the mountain wants in this instance.  They want to pair up singles to prevent half-empty chairs from going up the line.  Unless a single gets in the doubles line for some reason, they will have to take two people from the singles line to make a chair.  I guess the risk to the sucky racer kids is that the liftie pulls one of them out to pair up with the single in front of them.
> 
> Not a bad system for the goal, I guess.  I don't go out of my way to pair-up with someone on a doubles line when I'm skiing alone.  This would be a good way to prevent me from wasting a seat.  I guess the other way is to force people to pair up before they get in the line.  I suspect that would be a much harder system to police.  I can see someone getting bent out of shape when doubles abuse this type of line, however.



In this case they were together from the beginning and then said that singles can pair up to go up together and not wait for a single in the regular lines to go up with.


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## gmcunni (Mar 27, 2017)

SkiingInABlueDream said:


> Did anyone else think this thread was about a certain (banned IIRC) forum member first time you read the title?



100%.  thought Glenn had run into him at Stratton before opening the thread.


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm not talking about pressure, I'm saying that I think some near microscopic melt must be occurring at the boundary of snow/skis that aids in sliding.    The "melt" would be an imperceptible level, not a river of water behind you.



If you've ever looked right behind the tails of someone's skis who's carving some good turns and/or running a perfectly flat ski, with no skidding, from typically an elevated view pint, such as a lift on a sunny day with the right sun angle, you can see this evidence of the small layer of melting that occurs from base friction on the snow.  This is why ski wax is hydrophobic in nature, to keep the water from adhering to the surface of the ski and dramatically increasing the adhesion between the ski base and that layer of water.

Since the vast majority of people on the hill are skidding, not clean carving their turns and/or running on a perfectly flat ski, most folks won't leave any "evidence" of this thin layer of melting that does occur.

The 2 main times when most folks are aware of the effects that this melting has on how a ski runs over the snow, is when it's either REALLY cold out, and skis often feel really "sticky" against the snow as that micro layer of water can practically flash freeze to the ski base at low speeds (think hiking to the lift on a flat) or on warm days and/or days with really wet snow falling (or coming out of the guns) as the amount of water creating adhesion to the ski base is just too great


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## Jully (Mar 27, 2017)

drjeff said:


> If you've ever looked right behind the tails of someone's skis who's carving some good turns and/or running a perfectly flat ski, with no skidding, from typically an elevated view pint, such as a lift on a sunny day with the right sun angle, you can see this evidence of the small layer of melting that occurs from base friction on the snow.  *This is why ski wax is hydrophobic in nature,* to keep the water from adhering to the surface of the ski and dramatically increasing the adhesion between the ski base and that layer of water.
> 
> Since the vast majority of people on the hill are skidding, not clean carving their turns and/or running on a perfectly flat ski, most folks won't leave any "evidence" of this thin layer of melting that does occur.
> 
> The 2 main times when most folks are aware of the effects that this melting has on how a ski runs over the snow, is when it's either REALLY cold out, and skis often feel really "sticky" against the snow as that micro layer of water can practically flash freeze to the ski base at low speeds (think hiking to the lift on a flat) or on warm days and/or days with really wet snow falling (or coming out of the guns) as the amount of water creating adhesion to the ski base is just too great



Precisely. I don't know anything about ice skating, I've never even done it, but this is how skis slide more or less.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> *If it isn't pressure, then what would cause melting?*



Kinetic energy.

Now don't ask me anything more complex than that.  I had to get A's in all my biology & chemistry classes so I could get B's in my physics classes.


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## Glenn (Mar 27, 2017)

This thread was purposefully titled ladies and gentleman.  

I should have Photoshopped the picture to make it black and white and added a few old tyme NYers standing around idle. For prosperity's sake.  


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## Bumpsis (Mar 27, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Guys, seriously, it's a myth.  The pressure created by an ice skater is ten times less than is required to melt the ice.
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-bradley/theory-under-pressure-ska_b_2175389.html
> 
> Think about it.  If every ski was melting the snow, we would see a sheet of blue ice on every trail by the end of the day.



I'm not really sure if you're joking but it is a fact that heavy skier traffic will glaze up a trail. We've all seen that. That is especially true of spots where the ski/snowboard traffic is concentrated and a lot of people  skid through a steeper section glazing it up.

Also, similar phenomenon happens to snow when a hard packed snow is subjected to heavy foot sliding action. When I was a kid, we lived where snow play meant making a sidewalk "ice slide". A horde of kids would slide just on their shoes across a section of a snowy sidewalk and in no time transform it into an increasing longer horizontal slide, usually 5 yards long or longer, especially if there was even a hint of a slope. You would take a running starting and using the built up momentum slide on your feet down the side walk. It was all done with our shoes, no skates or metal of any kind. White packed snow would be transformed into a black ice slick in no time. It was awesome fun for us kids. I'm guessing that it was the friction of shoes against the snow and all that kinetic energy that was melting the snow and transforming it into ice.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2017)

Alright, I'll just agree to disagree - just as I had to when people argued with me that gloves are warmer than mittens.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Alright, I'll just agree to disagree - just as I had to when *people argued with me that gloves are warmer than mittens.*


 
Mittens are warmer than gloves, it primarily has to do with surface area (I still wouldn't be caught dead wearing mittens).


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## TheArchitect (Mar 27, 2017)

gmcunni said:


> 100%.  thought Glenn had run into him at Stratton before opening the thread.



Dear lord, who is that guy?


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## Domeskier (Mar 27, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> In this case they were together from the beginning and then said that singles can pair up to go up together and not wait for a single in the regular lines to go up with.



Agreed - their behavior was boorish.  However, the resort seems to be encouraging the behavior by having a singles line at a double chair where they will pretty much always have to pair up two singles from the singles line because there generally aren't going to be any singles in the doubles line to pair them up with.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 27, 2017)

That infamous Disemboweler. One of Williamsburg Brooklyn's finest sons. 

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## Not Sure (Mar 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Kinetic energy.
> 
> Now don't ask me anything more complex than that.  I had to get A's in all my biology & chemistry classes so I could get B's in my physics classes.








This would make the oppisite case ...Keep em inside the lodge or warm storage bag?


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## 180 (Mar 27, 2017)

TheArchitect said:


> Dear lord, who is that guy?



I was there that day


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## JimG. (Mar 27, 2017)

Fascinating how this thread has evolved into a physics class/race kid bash.

And a return of the dis.


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## fbrissette (Mar 28, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Alright, I'll just agree to disagree - just as I had to when people argued with me that gloves are warmer than mittens.



Snow melting under skis and skates is a problem that has been studied and solved a long time ago.   There is a relatively large body of theoretical and experimental work on this topic.   Frictional heating (and not pressure heating) is the main cause for the formation of a thin film of meltwater at the ski contact.

Most of the stuff is behind a paywall but here's a reasonably good open access recent paper.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11249-009-9476-9

Anybody who argues that gloves are warmer than mittens is an idiot.


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## Hawk (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> In this case they were together from the beginning and then said that singles can pair up to go up together and not wait for a single in the regular lines to go up with.



So the tried and true method of resolving singles in the double line is how they do it at Castlerock at Sugarbush.  Someone will ski up and yell "any Singles"  if there are then they pair up.  If not then they get at the end of the line and wait for the next single to ski up.  You very rarely see one person on the Castlerock Double chair.

Racer kids are fine.  The generalization of those kids here on this board is pretty unfair. The commitment to become a good racer is very hard and I for one could not deal with the long hours of training.  Some of these kids will became the next American champions in Alpine skiing like Mikaela Shiffrin so I cut them some slack. There are other groups on the mountain that piss me off more.  I will leave it at that.

Mittens are warmer than gloves.  Fingers bunched together are absolutely warmer than separated fingers.  I only use my expedition Marmot mittens when it is 10-20 below zero.

Racers leaving skis on the ground to make sure they stay the right temp is a fabrication made up so they have an excuse when people call them out for leaving their skis.  They should do like me and just ignore the person calling them out.

Also that dude in the video is awesome.  LOL


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> So the tried and true method of resolving singles in the double line is how they do it at Castlerock at Sugarbush.  Someone will ski up and yell "any Singles"  if there are then they pair up.  If not then they get at the end of the line and wait for the next single to ski up.  You very rarely see one person on the Castlerock Double chair.



Yup...that's the same way the tiny hill in the Poconos where I learned to ski did things too. A single line for a double chair is just a bizarre concept to me.


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## Smellytele (Mar 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Yup...that's the same way the tiny hill in the Poconos where I learned to ski did things too. A single line for a double chair is just a bizarre concept to me.



Well if a group has an odd number and doesn't want to get too separated they stay in line together especially when parents have an odd number of kids. Only time I can see it having a use.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Racer kids are fine.  The generalization of those kids here on this board is pretty unfair.  Some of these kids will became the next American champions in Alpine skiing like Mikaela Shiffrin so I cut them some slack.


So because 0.001 percent will go on to be Alpine skiing champions they should be cut some slack?  How about they just behave like they should - whether they are going to be a champion or not?  

Here is the reality.  While there are some very wonderful and respectful racer kids, a disproportionate number are disrespectful.  This is no surprise since many come from hyper-competitive entitled families.  I don't blame the kids.  I blame the parents who let them get to that point.  Those kids are going to have some issues later in life when they can never live up to Daddy's expectations.


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## Hawk (Mar 28, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> So because 0.001 percent will go on to be Alpine skiing champions they should be cut some slack?  How about they just behave like they should - whether they are going to be a champion or not?
> 
> Here is the reality.  While there are some very wonderful and respectful racer kids, a disproportionate number are disrespectful.  This is no surprise since many come from hyper-competitive entitled families.  I don't blame the kids.  I blame the parents who let them get to that point.  Those kids are going to have some issues later in life when they can never live up to Daddy's expectations.



I think that this is actually a matter of two different perspectives from different mountains.  I am assuming your perspective is from the NEK probably Burke Academy correct?  Mine is from GMVS at Sugarbush.   Those kids are mostly very well behaved and a good amount are home grown locals.  They do ski mostly at the Inverness so they are away from the frey a good amount but when I have seen them free skiing and out and about they have been respectful for the most part.  From what I understand they are taught that they represent the school and mountain and are disciplined if issues occur.  But they are millennial kids and as such, the phone use and f-ing around is not going to be any different than any other kid.  I think that the Burke Kids are maybe a little more affluent and mostly from other places.  I can't speak to that other than a casual observation.


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## Hawk (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Well if a group has an odd number and doesn't want to get too separated they stay in line together especially when parents have an odd number of kids. Only time I can see it having a use.



Same procedure applies for families with kids.  More than once I have gone up the lift with a single kid.


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## Smellytele (Mar 28, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I think that this is actually a matter of two different perspectives from different mountains.  I am assuming your perspective is from the NEK probably Burke Academy correct?  Mine is from GMVS at Sugarbush.   Those kids are mostly very well behaved and a good amount are home grown locals.  They do ski mostly at the Inverness so they are away from the frey a good amount but when I have seen them free skiing and out and about they have been respectful for the most part.  From what I understand they are taught that they represent the school and mountain and are disciplined if issues occur.  But they are millennial kids and as such, the phone use and f-ing around is not going to be any different than any other kid.  I think that the Burke Kids are maybe a little more affluent and mostly from other places.  I can't speak to that other than a casual observation.



I have seen it with local racer kids at local hills not just the academy type racers. The academy kids actually seem a little better and know the "rules" a little better.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> I have seen it with local racer kids at local hills not just the academy type racers. The academy kids actually seem a little better and know the "rules" a little better.


Agreed.  In my experience it's the youth racers that are a much bigger issue than the Academy kids.  It's probably related to the level of maturity.  There is a big difference at those ages.  I actually have no issues whatsoever with Burke Mountain Academy.


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## dlague (Mar 28, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Yup...that's the same way the tiny hill in the Poconos where I learned to ski did things too. A single line for a double chair is just a bizarre concept to me.


Can't say I have ever noticed a singles line for double chair.  If someone is coming from the singles line then they are joining another single.  Just make it all a singles line.

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 28, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> *This would make the oppisite case ...Keep em inside the lodge or warm storage bag*?



If you look back a few pages, that was precisely my hypothesis.  

I'd never heard of racers keeping their skis on the snow so they stay at snow temperature, but it made no sense to me scientifically unless it's a very cold day where the air temperature is much colder than the snow surface.   But even then, when you ride the lift the ski basis are just going to reach a stasis with the air at that point anyway, so the whole thing seems silly to me.


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## fbrissette (Mar 28, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you look back a few pages, that was precisely my hypothesis.
> 
> I'd never heard of racers keeping their skis on the snow so they stay at snow temperature, but it made no sense to me scientifically unless it's a very cold day where the air temperature is much colder than the snow surface.   But even then, when you ride the lift the ski basis are just going to reach a stasis with the air at that point anyway, so the whole thing seems silly to me.



Never been a racer, but if you take warm skis and put them on the snow, you'll end up with a layer of snow frozen to the top of the skis.  Not sure if that's a bad thing for ski racers, but for a backcountry skier this is something you learn quickly.  Nobody wants to carry an extra pound of snow per ski after paying big bucks for light skis and 500gr tech bindings.  Having the ski at air temperature makes sense.  I don't see how keeping them on snow would make any difference.


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2017)

If pre-warmed ski bases had any positive effect on a how efficiently a ski glides, you'd be seeing ski heating bags at the top of every world cup and high level race course, kind of like how you see Formula 1 race cars with heating bags around their tires when the cars are on pit row pre-race, because there is performance benefit to it.

At any high level race, what you see at the start is once the race skis are tuned and if at a really high level waxed with a quick "top dressing" of start wax in the general starting area, the skis are always base down in the snow, until the racer is ready to click into the bindings and head for the starting gate - the majority of ski wax is temperature specific, and having the bases (and hence the wax) at that optimal snow temperature that the wax is formulated to glide best at, is why you'll see the skis on the snow in the start area


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## Jully (Mar 28, 2017)

drjeff said:


> - the majority of ski wax is temperature specific, and having the bases (and hence the wax) at that optimal snow temperature that the wax is formulated to glide best at, is why you'll see the skis on the snow in the start area



This. I think that it is not that the snow is 'colder' and makes the ski faster due to the cold, but more that the wax put on the ski is designed for whatever the snow temp is that day. Therefore, you want the ski and wax to be in equilibrium and at that temperature when you start the race. 

Since the race lasts a minute, its not like the ski will reach equilibrium with the snow temperature if it started 10 degrees warmer.

However, back to the original point, it is a bogus excuse to keep your skis in the snow outside of a lodge unless you were racing that day and did not have a second set or anything, but in a youth race... its not going to make that big a difference anyways. A dozen 12 year old weekend racers keeping there skis on the ground has nothing to do with wax temperature.


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## witch hobble (Mar 28, 2017)

Ugh. Couldn't there just be a smartphone app to find partners to ride the chairlift with? Establishing real, human connection in such anpublic place is so......awkward!


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## asnowmobiler (Mar 29, 2017)

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## thetrailboss (Apr 1, 2017)

Sundance says racks schmacks. 


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## Glenn (Apr 2, 2017)

Guess they get a pass since no racks are there to "rack em' ". 


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