# One change



## BeefyBoy50 (Oct 1, 2014)

If you could change one thing at one ski area, what would it be?
You can change anything you want, no matter how ridiculous- but it can only be one thing.
I guess keep your answers to east coast ski areas, I'm interested to see some of these answers!


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## dlague (Oct 1, 2014)

Well you did not mention the result of a change so for me it is stop EB-5 Visas


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## Domeskier (Oct 1, 2014)

I would appreciate a bus from NYC to Sundown!


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## steamboat1 (Oct 1, 2014)

Public parking at Spruce Peak at Stowe. Was told on another forum there won't be any even after construction is completed for the new Spruce village.

I also like to see a new South Ridge chair at K.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

dlague said:


> *for me it is stop EB-5 Visas*



Good answer.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 1, 2014)

Domeskier said:


> I would appreciate a bus from NYC to Sundown!



I'm surprised you didn't say a dome put over Satans stairway so you could ski it year round.


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## Domeskier (Oct 1, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> I'm surprised you didn't say a dome put over Satans stairway so you could ski it year round.



Excellent idea.  I hereby revise my wish, BeefyBoy50.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

*One change at one ski area *=  More discount lift ticket options at Stowe.  Something....anything....even as a World Champion SOTC aficionado I only find a few (that I would consider a true deal) per season. 

*One change at ski areas in general *= Less grooming / more natural trails.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 1, 2014)

dlague said:


> Well you did not mention the result of a change so for me it is stop EB-5 Visas



This is like saying, the change I'd like to see for my mountain is it closing.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> This is like saying, the change I'd like to see for my mountain is it closing.



This makes no sense.

EDIT:  Unless you honestly believe Mount Snow and Jay Peak, etc... would close due to bankruptcy without EB-5 money.  In which case, your statement would make sense, you'd just be wrong.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 1, 2014)

If we're just doing one thing at any ski resort, it would be:
Loveland: HSQ replacing chair 2. I'd also accept a high speed poma to the top if cost is an issue

If I could change one thing per ski area:
Killington: Replacement For South Ridge Triple

Mad River Glenn: Sunnyside double converted to triple

Sunday River. White cap needs some HSQ's. Or at at a minimum, increase the line speed of the little white cap quad.

Breck: Interconnect to Copper

El Dora: New management!!! Seriously, the current manage is so incompetent that they are eventually going to make themselves bankrupt.

Arapahoe Basin: hurry up with "the beavers" expansion (currently waiting on EIS though, should expand in 3-5 years)


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This makes no sense.



You think Jay Peak and Burke would be thriving mountains for the public in 10 years with no EB-5 funding?


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> *You think Jay Peak and Burke would be thriving mountains for the public in 10 years with no EB-5 funding?*



Jay Peak = Yes.

Burke = Perhaps not "thriving", but operational = Yes.


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## Puck it (Oct 1, 2014)

Raise the summit of Cannon to just over 10K!


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak = Yes.
> 
> Burke = Perhaps not "thriving", but operational = Yes.



I tend to disagree with you. Sure, they may be operating but EB-5 funding aside, both would be barely operable and not seeing the opportunities that may come their way through this means of funding. It's effectively an economic stimulus package for these more rural VT mountains. Sure, I also don't like all the political/economic strings attached and question whether these loans will be paid back, but plopping a 100+ bed hotel at mid-Burke can only help, not hurt, the sustainability of the mountain.


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## ss20 (Oct 1, 2014)

Stowe/Smugglers connection.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

ss20 said:


> *Stowe/Smugglers connection.*



Been there, did that.  It was awesome.


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## prsboogie (Oct 1, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Stowe/Smugglers connection.



+1


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## Smellytele (Oct 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak = Yes.
> 
> Burke = Perhaps not "thriving", but operational = Yes.



Even with eb-5 money Burke may not survive


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Even with eb-5 money Burke may not survive



True; with or without it, it may go under.   But either way, a private buyer would enter the fray.  Point being, EB-5 was and is totally unnecessary.


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## marcski (Oct 1, 2014)

Temps never getting above freezing until March and then, only on bluebird days.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> True; with or without it, it may go under.   But either way, a private buyer would enter the fray.  Point being, EB-5 was and is totally unnecessary.



I beg to differ. Without the hotel, the only potential buyer, who would see value, would likely be BMA. With the hotel, and the management fee associated with it, along with the increased skier visits, it will open up the mountain to another pool of potential buyers, in that event.

Again, your speaking like getting a $100 M injection of funding is a bad thing, when in fact, any way you slice it, it is most likely good for the viability of the mountain going forward.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 1, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Raise the summit of Cannon to just over 10K!



Maybe you'd be able to ski in July, during the one week of the year that there wasn't 200+ mph winds!


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## andrec10 (Oct 1, 2014)

Hunters owners.....


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## crank (Oct 1, 2014)

Lower lift ticket prices to $10.00


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## Cannonball (Oct 1, 2014)

Make the top of Cannon's Zoomer chair end ~50' higher.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2014)

Significant upper mountain glade expansion at Wildcat.


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## Puck it (Oct 1, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> Make the top of Cannon's Zoomer chair end ~50' higher.



I get it.  You snowboarder.  May be, we should make it a skier's only chair.


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## fbrissette (Oct 1, 2014)

marcski said:


> Temps never getting above freezing until March and then, only on bluebird days.


This.


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## snoseek (Oct 1, 2014)

Open a little later but stay open as late as possible. More people need to ski in spring.


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## Cannonball (Oct 1, 2014)

Puck it said:


> I get it.  You snowboarder.  May be, we should make it a skier's only chair.



I have very, very small wants.  The world is good (despite what you might here)


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## darent (Oct 1, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I tend to disagree with you. Sure, they may be operating but EB-5 funding aside, both would be barely operable and not seeing the opportunities that may come their way through this means of funding. It's effectively an economic stimulus package for these more rural VT mountains. Sure, I also don't like all the political/economic strings attached and question whether these loans will be paid back, but plopping a 100+ bed hotel at mid-Burke can only help, not hurt, the sustainability of the mountain.


history has shown that whenever a golden parachute of financing has appeared on the ski scene,bankruptcy soon followed!! can you name the ones that went belly up over junk bonds?


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## Savemeasammy (Oct 1, 2014)

(Sorry, rules violation....  This covers ALL EC ski areas)

How about no friggin' rain storms right in the middle of ski season?  That'd be great.  Thanks.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 4aprice (Oct 1, 2014)

More multi-mountain pass options here on the east coast.  (like Epic Pass out west).  It would be nice to see some of our local hills down here team up with some larger resorts up north.  It would definitely drive me to those resorts.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Boston Bulldog (Oct 1, 2014)

All gapers MUST wear day glow strips on their gear (Similar to crossing guards) and a warning patch on their helmets and jackets.


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## BeefyBoy50 (Oct 1, 2014)

4aprice said:


> More multi-mountain pass options here on the east coast.  (like Epic Pass out west).  It would be nice to see some of our local hills down here team up with some larger resorts up north.  It would definitely drive me to those resorts.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



To be honest, after I first skiied at a vail resort using the Epic Pass, part of me kind of wished they would buy some eastern resort. They have really cool systems set up with their RFID passes and they also have some of the cheapest season passes in the business. Plus, Vail Resorts tends not to neglect the lift systems of their various resorts. However, I've obviously heard bad things about these mega-corporations (Vail specifically but other companies too) so it would probably not be a change for the better.


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Significant upper mountain glade expansion at Wildcat.



That's a great one. Terrain is awesome just too many pine trees


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 1, 2014)

Magic carpet up Hellbrook so I could do laps on a pow day


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## DoublePlanker (Oct 1, 2014)

Lift tickets that come with a "get out of jail free" card to use on my wife and employer.


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## dlague (Oct 1, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> (Sorry, rules violation....  This covers ALL EC ski areas)
> 
> How about no friggin' rain storms right in the middle of ski season?  That'd be great.  Thanks.
> 
> ...



+1 no thaws in January


.......


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2014)

All mountains:

Stay open at least 30 minutes later for Daylight Saving Time.


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## ceo (Oct 1, 2014)

New gondola at Sugarloaf, on the same alignment as the old one, with appropriate steps to make it more windproof.

Also move the Village and extend Double Runner down so you don't have to hike to it or the Superquad from the base lodge.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2014)

Extend the Spaulding Turnpike all the way to Center Conway.


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## prsboogie (Oct 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Extend the Spaulding Turnpike all the way to Center Conway.



+1²


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 1, 2014)

prsboogie said:


> +1²



Sure it shouldn't be +1[SUP]3[/SUP]?


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## steamboat1 (Oct 1, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I tend to disagree with you. Sure, they may be operating but EB-5 funding aside, both would be barely operable and not seeing the opportunities that may come their way through this means of funding. It's effectively an economic stimulus package for these more rural VT mountains. Sure, I also don't like all the political/economic strings attached and question whether these loans will be paid back, but plopping a 100+ bed hotel at mid-Burke can only help, not hurt, the sustainability of the mountain.
> 
> 
> I beg to differ. Without the hotel, the only potential buyer, who would see value, would likely be BMA. With the hotel, and the management fee associated with it, along with the increased skier visits, it will open up the mountain to another pool of potential buyers, in that event.
> ...


It did wonders for Ascutney.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 2, 2014)

fbrissette said:


> This.



+100. After all snow storms no warm ups. Lake effect snows fall over 300 inches at all the east coast winter mountains.

Platty start using the Ocean on top this winter for snowmaking so I can buy a pass and know money invested I will enjoy it.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 2, 2014)

andrec10 said:


> Hunters owners.....


 
Why. I had a spring pass last winter they made crazy amount of snow. It was lots of fun times I looking forward to skiing their several times this winter in prime months.


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## Savemeasammy (Oct 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Significant upper mountain glade expansion at Wildcat.



Is wildcat limited to glades only below a certain elevation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2014)

I can only assume.  The only on map stuff is lower elevation.  Its all super thick soft woods, so it would take a lot of work to open things up.


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## machski (Oct 2, 2014)

Forget a plain vanilla Gondola, make it a base to summit Funnitel.  That will make it as windproof as possible!





ceo said:


> New gondola at Sugarloaf, on the same alignment as the old one, with appropriate steps to make it more windproof.
> 
> Also move the Village and extend Double Runner down so you don't have to hike to it or the Superquad from the base lodge.


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## HD333 (Oct 2, 2014)

Keep the Sachem lift at Okemo opened until 6:00 so we can après without sending the wife home early to bring the car down or stopping early then scrambling to make it on Sachem before it closes.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 2, 2014)

Have GF/Wife/Significant other complain that I'm not skiing enough


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## Smellytele (Oct 2, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Have GF/Wife/Significant other complain that I'm not skiing enough



All three?


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 2, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Again,* your speaking like getting a $100 M injection of funding is a bad thing, when in fact, any way you slice it, it is most likely good for the viability of the mountain going forward*.



Fixed assets cost significant money to run and maintain.  While the initial "Magical $100M" you speak of instantly increases revenue and appears to all casual onlookers like successful manna from heaven, the long-term implications/costs catch up to you if that magical money isn't accompanied by a legitimate business plan and a healthy market that leads to _sustained_ revenue.  If you dont believe me, we can revisit this thread 5 years from now and see how Sochi, Russia is doing. By your logic it should thrive.  That ski resort received Billions of dollars, with a capital B, many multiples of $100M (and I predict it will be a failure).



ScottySkis said:


> +
> *Platty start using the Ocean on top this winter for snowmaking* so I can buy a pass and know money invested I will enjoy it.



Was it not in use last year?  Sadly I only got to ski Platty I think 3 times last season and I don't recall.  That was one impressively large dirt hole though.


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## prsboogie (Oct 2, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Sure it shouldn't be +1[SUP]3[/SUP]?



Na, I was just being a smart ass squaring my +1


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Fixed assets cost significant money to run and maintain.  While the initial "Magical $100M" you speak of instantly increases revenue and appears to all casual onlookers like successful manna from heaven, the long-term implications/costs catch up to you if that magical money isn't accompanied by a legitimate business plan and a healthy market that leads to _sustained_ revenue.


 So you don't mortgage your homes either and just pay cash? That's really what this is -- a subsidy loan that enables an area mountain, which on its own without this vehicle, couldn't justify this investment in one tranche (or at higher bank rates) to do so. It's local economic stimulus--without it, it wouldn't happen. With it, you do need to cover enough to a) payback principal and the small interest and b) cover operating costs, but without it, you'd have to a), b) and also pay-back your initial funding and/or a higher interest rate loan from a local or national bank. I agree a certain level of occupancy in the rooms will be needed to reach this break-even, but I know it is a lot lower 'breakeven' in the EB-5 scenario than it would be without it. In fact, without it, it probably would be unreachable, and certainly not fundable by a rational bank not expressly committed to local market economic development.



BenedictGomez said:


> If you dont believe me, we can revisit this thread 5 years from now and see how Sochi, Russia is doing. By your logic it should thrive.  That ski resort received Billions of dollars, with a capital B, many multiples of $100M (and I predict it will be a failure).



Because that's a perfect analogy. Last I checked,the northeast kingdom is not: a) a warm summer resort, b) ruled by dictator that just invaded its neighboring country and c) almost impossible to get to by car from anywhere, including Moscow and d) just hosted the olympics. I appreciate the attempt to compare, but it's illogical.

Lastly, perhaps the divide in our belief set is driven by how you define success. To me, success is that, irrespective of who owns it in 10-20 years, it's still operating and functional to the general public. To me, without the hotel, the only thing keeping it from irrelevance is BMA. With the hotel, it is another asset to drive revenue and opportunity, that even if it gets sunk into Chapter 11 once or twice, it is still driving visitors and some revenue stream that could create (if managed well) some cash flow. I can't account for execution, or lack thereof (esp when it comes to Q), that's a separate discussion, but to me I can't find why having the hotel could possibly be a bad thing when trying to ascertain Burke being a going concern in the mid-long term.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 2, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> So *you don't mortgage your homes either and just pay cash? That's really what this is *-- a subsidy loan that enables an area mountain, which on its own without this vehicle, couldn't justify this investment in one tranche (or at higher bank rates) to do so.



No, that's not what this it.  When you "mortgage your home" you get a loan that the bank lends because it believes you will be able to repay it, and the bank has deemed the risk low enough and the return acceptable enough to take that risk.   The reason these EB-5 projects aren't simply financed by banks in the first place is because the project isn't deemed financially viable.

Anyway, this EB-5 conversation already exists in another thread with reasoning why the program may do more harm than good in the long run and has been well-discussed if you search for it.


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## SkiRaceParent (Oct 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, that's not what this it.  When you "mortgage your home" you get a loan that the bank lends because it believes you will be able to repay it, and the bank has deemed the risk low enough and the return acceptable enough to take that risk.   The reason these EB-5 projects aren't simply financed by banks in the first place is because the project isn't deemed financially viable in the first place.
> 
> Anyway, this EB-5 conversation already exists in another thread with reasoning why the program may do more harm than good in the long run and has been well-discussed if you search for it.



I will look for that thread, but I understand the argument well. If you isolate what it means though specifically for Burke, I still find the argument I am making valid. Basically, that something is getting funded which otherwise wouldn't  (ie., we both agree here). From this, there is a fighting chance that this mountain survives, and perhaps even thrives (well, as long as Q is around I know that is unlikely but, maybe in the future). I don't believe that the foreigners have enough rights that they will essentially come in and make the mountain so liable that the whole thing goes under. There are lawyers and language to protect against that. Even in that event, then that liability will get flushed during Chapter 7/11, and the asset that will end up on the block after the bankruptcy period is completed (or perhaps during it) will be a mountain plus a hotel, not just a mountain.


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## hammer (Oct 2, 2014)

Paved parking lots.  Do not understand why many ski areas do not have them.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 2, 2014)

hammer said:


> Paved parking lots.  Do not understand why many ski areas do not have them.



Repair and upkeep costs? A plow can't really take a chunk out of a dirt lot, but once there are a few cracks, water seeps in, freezes, there's a good snowfall and the plow starts uprooting the parking lot making 6" pot holes. At least  that's my guess.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 2, 2014)

hammer said:


> Paved parking lots.  Do not understand why many ski areas do not have them.


Stowe paved the Mansfield parking lot this summer so you can cross that one off the list. They even added stripes


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## dlague (Oct 2, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> I will look for that thread, but I understand the argument well. If you isolate what it means though specifically for Burke, I still find the argument I am making valid. Basically, that something is getting funded which otherwise wouldn't  (ie., we both agree here). From this, there is a fighting chance that this mountain survives, and perhaps even thrives (well, as long as Q is around I know that is unlikely but, maybe in the future). I don't believe that the foreigners have enough rights that they will essentially come in and make the mountain so liable that the whole thing goes under. There are lawyers and language to protect against that. Even in that event, then that liability will get flushed during Chapter 7/11, and the asset that will end up on the block after the bankruptcy period is completed (or perhaps during it) will be a mountain plus a hotel, not just a mountain.



When I mentioned EB-5 Visas, I did not intend it to be a huge discussion.  I liked the old school Jay Peak.  Worked there when I was younger and it just feels different now.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Abubob (Oct 2, 2014)

Puck it said:


> Raise the summit of Cannon to just over 10K!



With the proportionally wider mountain base this would put it within a ten minute drive from my house. I'm for it!


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## Abubob (Oct 2, 2014)

My one change: Move that grey building on the left .... to somewhere else!



IMG_6876 by Bob Misu, on Flickr


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 2, 2014)

hammer said:


> Paved parking lots.  *Do not understand why many ski areas do not have them*.



Why would they?  

I'm not really seeing the benefit versus the upkeep cost or even the purpose etc..  It's not like a ski resort is a business environment where people are ruining their leather soled shoes without them, or a place where stones are going to kick up on a $150,000 sports car (well, except for the Lambo I saw at Whiteface last year, but that's a pretty extreme outlier).

Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever been to a ski resort that has paved parking.  Maybe I have and just dont remember.


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## Tin (Oct 2, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Stowe paved the Mansfield parking lot this summer so you can cross that one off the list. They even added stripes




Hope they created a good drainage system or it will be one big pond. Bush also has paved lots.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever been to a ski resort that has paved parking.



Vail has a parking garage. But you also have to pay like $25 for the day. I'll take the free dirt parking lot. (For the record, Vail does have limited free parking)

Some ski area dirt parking lots are so gnarly you practically need a 4x4 to get through them.

MRG likes to pack the cars in so tight that if you show up early for a pow day you're probably going to come back to your car to find scratches from skis on it. Come on people, it's not that hard to multitask and walk and hold something at the same time.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 2, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Come to think of it, I don't believe I've ever been to a ski resort that has paved parking.  Maybe I have and just dont remember.


Off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.
The upper lot at Lincoln Peak (sugarbush)
Tram side at Cannon
Multi-level parking at Stratton
Mansfield parking lot at Stowe (new)


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## Tin (Oct 2, 2014)

Might as well consider K access road a lot. It becomes one on Saturdays instead of people actually using the lot.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 2, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Vail has a parking garage. But you also have to pay like $25 for the day.



Screw that.



steamboat1 said:


> Off the top of my head. I'm sure there are others.
> The upper lot at Lincoln Peak (sugarbush)



I never ski in NH or s.VT, so that's the only one I would have seen. Guess I've just never noticed.


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## Puck it (Oct 2, 2014)

Sunapee is paved. Upper Peabody lot is paved at Cannon and so is the Zoomer lot.


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## dlague (Oct 2, 2014)

Can't recall but Jay Peak has two parking garages technically I know the bottom is dirt but is the top dirt filled?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 2, 2014)

dlague said:


> Can't recall but Jay Peak has two parking garages technically I know the bottom is dirt but is the top dirt filled?


IIRC, no.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 2, 2014)

Tin said:


> Might as well consider K access road a lot. It becomes one on Saturdays instead of people actually using the lot.



With the current condition of that upper section of the road it's way worse then dirt.


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## 4aprice (Oct 2, 2014)

ALLSKIING said:


> With the current condition of that upper section of the road it's way worse then dirt.



Was up at the K-1 Lodge Sunday and they did do some work on the road this summer.  Not as beat up and bumpy as it was last spring.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## steamboat1 (Oct 2, 2014)

Tin said:


> Might as well consider K access road a lot. It becomes one on Saturdays instead of people actually using the lot.


True, in May there are more cars on the road than in the lot.

Good times.


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## gostan (Oct 3, 2014)

Build a new lodge at top of Gatehouse lift @ Sugarbush to alleviate the weekend crowds at the way  too small Gatehouse lodge at the base.


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## machski (Oct 4, 2014)

$108/day tickets, I hope they paved the lots!!





steamboat1 said:


> Stowe paved the Mansfield parking lot this summer so you can cross that one off the list. They even added stripes


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## goldsbar (Oct 4, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, that's not what this it.  When you "mortgage your home" you get a loan that the bank lends because it believes you will be able to repay it, and the bank has deemed the risk low enough and the return acceptable enough to take that risk.   The reason these EB-5 projects aren't simply financed by banks in the first place is because the project isn't deemed financially viable.
> 
> Anyway, this EB-5 conversation already exists in another thread with reasoning why the program may do more harm than good in the long run and has been well-discussed if you search for it.



It's a little bit like this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window


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## gmcunni (Oct 4, 2014)

Sugarbush Resort transported to Northern CT


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## steamboat1 (Oct 4, 2014)

gostan said:


> Build a new lodge at top of Gatehouse lift @ Sugarbush to alleviate the weekend crowds at the way  too small Gatehouse lodge at the base.


Lot's of wasted space in the new lodge they built & it didn't solve the problem of overcrowding. They could have easily added another level for additional seating instead of having 100ft. ceilings.


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## catsup948 (Oct 4, 2014)

I'm not a massive fan of Sugarloaf, besides the AZ summit but a tram to summit would be pretty cool.  They put lifts in all kinds of windy crazy places in Europe why not Maine?


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## Tin (Oct 4, 2014)

catsup948 said:


> I'm not a massive fan of Sugarloaf, besides the AZ summit but a tram to summit would be pretty cool.  They put lifts in all kinds of windy crazy places in Europe why not Maine?



Probably the worst possible lift you could put there.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 4, 2014)

catsup948 said:


> I'm not a massive fan of Sugarloaf, besides the AZ summit but a tram to summit would be pretty cool.  They put lifts in all kinds of windy crazy places in Europe why not Maine?



$$$$$

Only viable T2B lift I could see working at Sugarloaf is a Funitel.  The estimates I've heard for such a lift are in the neighborhood of $20M.   It would take decades to see a ROI on such an investment there.


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## steamboat1 (Oct 4, 2014)

I don't care what kind of lift they could put in to the summit of Sugarloaf. When temperatures are low & the wind is howling it's not fit for man or beast to be up there. There's a reason there are no trees on the summit & it's not because of altitude, it's no higher than Killington Peak.


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## Smellytele (Oct 4, 2014)

gmcunni said:


> Sugarbush Resort transported to Northern CT



Then there would be no snow on it.


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## gmcunni (Oct 4, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Then there would be no snow on it.



Sugarbush, and it snowfall, transported to northern CT


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 4, 2014)

There is a lost ski area (COLSAP?) not even a mile from my house. Michael Coors, the descendent of Adolph Coors and the Coors Brewery, tried to open it back up under the name Eclipse Snow Park. He got pretty far too, rezoned it for the ski area, had a parcel swap with the NFS and everything. In the end though the damn county commissions shot it down due to residents complaining about the extra traffic. I'd like him to keep pursuing it in hopes he can open it up.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15354392


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## gostan (Oct 6, 2014)

P





steamboat1 said:


> Lot's of wasted space in the new lodge they built & it didn't solve the problem of overcrowding. They could have easily added another level for additional seating instead of having 100ft. ceilings.


 I understand that the original design of the Gatehouse Lodge was modified at the last minute to reduce its size and to give us the miserably designed Castlerock Pub.  A mid mountain lodge would alleviate the crowds at base both in the lodge and at Sugar Bravo.  I always to do my best to try to avoid coming back to the base, which is some of the beauty of the Sugarbush lift/trail layout.


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2014)

gostan said:


> P I understand that the original design of the Gatehouse Lodge was modified at the last minute to reduce its size and to give us the miserably designed Castlerock Pub.  A mid mountain lodge would alleviate the crowds at base both in the lodge and at Sugar Bravo.  I always to do my best to try to avoid coming back to the base, which is some of the beauty of the Sugarbush lift/trail layout.



The pub feels as though you are in a cave. If they would have put a second floor in they could have placed it up there with a view of more than the condos and walkways. Bad location.


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## gostan (Oct 6, 2014)

Agreed!  I hate to try to drink and eat in a cave with a wicked crowded bar.  I used to be able to enjoy the bar at timbers, but even that is now beyond crowded all of the time.


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2014)

Used to drink at the upstairs bar at the Valley house. Do they even have that anymore?


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## gostan (Oct 6, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Used to drink at the upstairs bar at the Valley house. Do they even have that anymore?


Yes, but it is now really a bar for the 4 Twenties crowd.  they have no issues walking up the hill.  down thee hill is another story after a few Heady Toppers.


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2014)

gostan said:


> Yes, but it is now really a bar for the 4 Twenties crowd.  they have no issues walking up the hill.  down thee hill is another story after a few Heady Toppers.



I would just stop there on the last run then throw the skis back on and ski the 200 yards down to the bottom


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## Puck it (Oct 6, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't care what kind of lift they could put in to the summit of Sugarloaf. When temperatures are low & the wind is howling it's not fit for man or beast to be up there. There's a reason there are no trees on the summit & it's not because of altitude, it's no higher than Killington Peak.




No trees because there was a fire on the mountain in 30's, I think.  And never regret.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

SkiRaceParent said:


> You think Jay Peak and Burke would be thriving mountains for the public in 10 years with no EB-5 funding?



Do you have a crystal ball? 

The hotel is not open yet. Burke is not thriving. I'd attribute that to management more than anything. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Oct 6, 2014)

gostan said:


> P I understand that the original design of the Gatehouse Lodge was modified at the last minute to reduce its size and to give us the miserably designed Castlerock Pub.  A mid mountain lodge would alleviate the crowds at base both in the lodge and at Sugar Bravo.  I always to do my best to try to avoid coming back to the base, which is some of the beauty of the Sugarbush lift/trail layout.


Castlerock pub was enlarged from it's original size. This was done a year or two after the new lodge opened. Has nothing to do with the wasted space upstairs.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Do you have a crystal ball?
> 
> The hotel is not open yet. Burke is not thriving. I'd attribute that to management more than anything.
> 
> ...


Jay Peak has a LOT of beds and questionable summer viability.  Burke has an advantage in that there will be fewer beds and mountain biking brings a lot of people in.  The real question is whether or not they can get mountain bikers to want to spend their money at Burke and not just Kingdom trails.  That will take better management than we have seen recently.  On the other hand, their recent enduro race drew 200 bikers, so it looks like bikers may have a short memory.  

My biggest concern would be the build-out of mountain biking trail networks in places that are closer to the urban areas and/or more popular places.  Killington is a good example.  Ascutney could be a contender as well - although I am not sure what lifts remain.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

Talk about an ingenious fundraiser!


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay Peak has a LOT of beds and questionable summer viability.  Burke has an advantage in that there will be fewer beds and mountain biking brings a lot of people in.  The real question is whether or not they can get mountain bikers to want to spend their money at Burke and not just Kingdom trails.  That will take better management than we have seen recently.  On the other hand, their recent enduro race drew 200 bikers, so it looks like bikers may have a short memory.
> 
> My biggest concern would be the build-out of mountain biking trail networks in places that are closer to the urban areas and/or more popular places.  Killington is a good example.  Ascutney could be a contender as well - although I am not sure what lifts remain.



Mtn bikers for the most part (not saying all) would rather camp then stay in the hotel. Is the camp ground still there or is it gone?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Mtn bikers for the most part (not saying all) would rather camp then stay in the hotel. Is the camp ground still there or is it gone?


It's still there.


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## HowieT2 (Oct 6, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> Castlerock pub was enlarged from it's original size. This was done a year or two after the new lodge opened. Has nothing to do with the wasted space upstairs.



My recollection of how events unfolded, is that when they built the gatehouse/castle rock pub, the plan was to demolish the valley house while building a large lodge with additional cafeteria/bar space.  That changed, valley house remains, and the large structure was not built in favor of the schoolhouse and farmhouse, neither of which have cafeteria or bar space.  so the problem is not so much with the design of the gatehouse/crp, but what they chose to build afterwards.  That being said, they need more cafeteria and bar capacity somewhere.  Personally, I'd like to see the valley house demolished and replaced with a new lodge, but that doesnt seem to be the plan.  So, I guess they are going expand the valley house uphill towards spring fling, which if its done right, could be pretty cool.

My understanding is that the problem with building a full service mid mtn lodge at the top of the super bravo, where Alyn's Lodge now stands, is that there is no water line there.  That is why they only have packaged foods and composting toilets in Alyns.  dont know why that is such an obstacle (obviously water is necessary but why is it not feasible to run a line).  I recall Win in the past talking about a mid mtn lodge at the base of the Heavens gate or at the confluence of the gatehouse, slidebrook and north lynx lifts.


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## machski (Oct 6, 2014)

Isn't Alyns and the top of Super Bravo in GMNF land?  If so, there's your road block.





HowieT2 said:


> My recollection of how events unfolded, is that when they built the gatehouse/castle rock pub, the plan was to demolish the valley house while building a large lodge with additional cafeteria/bar space.  That changed, valley house remains, and the large structure was not built in favor of the schoolhouse and farmhouse, neither of which have cafeteria or bar space.  so the problem is not so much with the design of the gatehouse/crp, but what they chose to build afterwards.  That being said, they need more cafeteria and bar capacity somewhere.  Personally, I'd like to see the valley house demolished and replaced with a new lodge, but that doesnt seem to be the plan.  So, I guess they are going expand the valley house uphill towards spring fling, which if its done right, could be pretty cool.
> 
> My understanding is that the problem with building a full service mid mtn lodge at the top of the super bravo, where Alyn's Lodge now stands, is that there is no water line there.  That is why they only have packaged foods and composting toilets in Alyns.  dont know why that is such an obstacle (obviously water is necessary but why is it not feasible to run a line).  I recall Win in the past talking about a mid mtn lodge at the base of the Heavens gate or at the confluence of the gatehouse, slidebrook and north lynx lifts.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *My biggest concern would be the build-out of mountain biking trail networks in places that are closer to the urban areas and/or more popular places.*  Killington is a good example.  Ascutney could be a contender as well - although I am not sure what lifts remain.



IMO, the biggest concern is that every Tom-Dick-and-Harry ski resort seems to be getting into the Mountain Bike market, which could quickly lead to that market becoming saturated in a few years.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> IMO, the biggest concern is that every Tom-Dick-and-Harry ski resort seems to be getting into the Mountain Bike market, which could quickly lead to that market becoming saturated in a few years.



Yes, and my concern is that Burke had a GOLDEN opportunity with the relationship it had built over the years with KT and in a few short weeks completely burned that relationship and flushed what was left down the toilet.  I don't think that merely building a Hotel is going to resolve Burke's issues.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> IMO, the biggest concern is that every Tom-Dick-and-Harry ski resort seems to be getting into the Mountain Bike market, which could quickly lead to that market becoming saturated in a few years.


That was pretty much my point - since those Tom, Dick, and Harry resorts are all closer to population centers than Burke.  Truthfully, it's Kingdom Trails that brings bikers to Burke - not the lift served biking.


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## mattchuck2 (Oct 6, 2014)

One change that I'd make would be for all eastern ski areas to receive 350+ inches of snow. Imagine how much cheaper lift tickets would be, how many powder days we'd get, how fun MRG and Magic would be ALL THE TIME. That's really the only viable answer to this question.


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## moresnow (Oct 6, 2014)

mattchuck2 said:


> One change that I'd make would be for all eastern ski areas to receive 350+ inches of snow. Imagine how much cheaper lift tickets would be, how many powder days we'd get, how fun MRG and Magic would be ALL THE TIME. That's really the only viable answer to this question.


Finally a reasonable idea.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 6, 2014)

mattchuck2 said:


> One change that I'd make would be for all eastern ski areas to receive 350+ inches of snow. Imagine how much cheaper lift tickets would be,


Stowe would only be about $102!


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## tree_skier (Oct 7, 2014)

I would just like a little micro climate over the area of my choosing allowing nor r@*n and year round snow


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## prsboogie (Oct 9, 2014)

Half priced everything!!


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