# Bob Dylan sticks it to Ticketmaster



## legalskier (Aug 25, 2010)

_The 70-year-old rock icon is set to play Wednesday at the Warfield for the first time in nearly two decades and every single ticket to the show is still available. Here's the catch: All tickets are general admission and will be available at the Warfield box office on the day of the show only. Admission to the show is $60 cash. No credit cards or checks will be accepted. The box office and the doors will open at 5:30 p.m. and ticket holders will enter the venue immediately at the time of purchase, one ticket per customer. Line-ups will begin no earlier than noon on day of performance. Goldenvoice, the promoter for the concert, said Dylan's people came to them with the idea and they thought it was worth trying out. "Given the state of touring and how fees have escalated, it was a real breath of fresh air to do something very consumer oriented by eliminating all ticketing charges -- it's almost a throwback to another time," said David Lefkowitz, the company's vice president of booking. *** The concert industry experts over at Pollstar are already praising the experiment as pretty much the solution to all the woes with secondary market ticket brokers._
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/culture/detail?entry_id=70738#ixzz0xg5roF8i

So much for the onerous "paperless ticket" system.


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## riverc0il (Aug 25, 2010)

On the flip side, there could be some major problems with this. Here are two that immediately come to mind. If line ups begin at a certain time (noon day of the performance), I assume that means that they will not allow over night sleeping and what not. Can you imagine the crush of people that will swarm the box office when it opens for line up? There could be trampling. It could be dangerous. The other factor is what about all those people driving long distances with no guarantee of getting in? That would stink to drive a long distance with no way of knowing if you'll get a ticket.

Pearl Jam fought Ticketmaster. It didn't really do much. I see no problem with a ticketing agency charging reasonable fees to process and mail me tickets so I have a guarantee of seeing the show and piece of mind before driving 1-2 hours. The fees are a bit harsh from TM but it is unfortunately the better case scenario compared to the problem of not having presales.

The biggest problem are the scalpers and agencies selling for higher than face value. I used to see this crap all the time when I was younger and the internet was not reliable for buying tickets when they were released. Used to have to line up at the local agency, take a raffle ticket, and cross your fingers. I could deal with that. What I couldn't deal with is the shop owners scalper friend walking into the shop just prior to the doors opening and getting a few max ticket hits before everyone else got theirs. 

Economists might suggest that the secondary ticket market just corrects for low prices from the primary market. That a limited supply and high demand rightly should drive ticket prices up. Blah blah blah. Normally I come down on the side of a generally free marketplace. But selling above face value for concert tickets should be right up there with theft. I don't like the concept. I know the artists and venues don't like the concept because they don't see those profits even though they are the sellers offering the real product. My preference would be legally instituting face value max resale. Doubt it will ever happen or actually be enforced where it may already be the law.


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## dmc (Aug 26, 2010)

Be interested to see how it all works out..  

I got some sweet seats for Roger Water performing the Wall.  Got them from the presale off his website.   Trick is - I have to go and pick them up.  They didn't mail any of them.  I'm imagining a cluster F at MSG and Hartford.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> On the flip side, there could be some major problems with this. Here are two that immediately come to mind. If line ups begin at a certain time (noon day of the performance), I assume that means that they will not allow over night sleeping and what not. Can you imagine the crush of people that will swarm the box office when it opens for line up? There could be trampling. It could be dangerous..



Have you ever seen Dylan live before?  I don't think this will be a problem.  God Bless his fabulous songwriting, but he sucks live.



riverc0il said:


> The other factor is what about all those people driving long distances with no guarantee of getting in? That would stink to drive a long distance with no way of knowing if you'll get a ticket.
> 
> Pearl Jam fought Ticketmaster. It didn't really do much. I see no problem with a ticketing agency charging reasonable fees to process and mail me tickets so I have a guarantee of seeing the show and piece of mind before driving 1-2 hours. The fees are a bit harsh from TM but it is unfortunately the better case scenario compared to the problem of not having presales.
> 
> ...



I'm assuming the only reason why Dylan is capable of doing this is that the Warfield is independent of LIve Nation / Ticketmaster.  Those two agencies (which I actually believe have merged) own the ticketing/concert rights to almost all of the top venues in the country.  They initiate 'legal' scalping themselves through their own agency TicketsNow.  Before tickets even go on sale, they take as many out of the pool as possible, irregardless of what the performer wants to charge, and puts them up for sale at huge mark ups as that's the 'market' demand.  If you or I did this, we could go to jail for 'scalping' in some states, but they are above the law.

In the Sporting World, it PISSES ME OFF to no End that Jerry Remy is the Spokesman for ACE Tickets - a Sports tickets Scalping Agency.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2010)

This is from Trent Reznor who explains the situation well.



As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I've noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices - even before the pre-sale dates. I'll do my best to explain the situation as I see it, as well as clarify my organization's stance in the matter.

NIN decides to tour this summer. We arrive at the conclusion outdoor amphitheaters are the right venue for this outing, for a variety of reasons we've throughly considered*. In the past, NIN would sell the shows in each market to local promoters, who then "buy" the show from us to sell to you. Live Nation happens to own all the amphitheaters and bought most of the local promoters - so if you want to play those venues, you're being promoted by Live Nation. Live Nation has had an exclusive deal with TicketMaster that has just expired, so Live Nation launched their own ticketing service. Most of the dates on this tour are through Live Nation, some are through TicketMaster - this is determined by the promoter (Live Nation), not us.
Now we get into the issue of secondary markets for tickets, which is the hot issue here. The ticketing marketplace for rock concerts shows a real lack of sophistication, meaning this: the true market value of some tickets for some concerts is much higher than what the act wants to be perceived as charging. For example, there are some people who would be willing to pay $1,000 and up to be in the best seats for various shows, but MOST acts in the rock / pop world don't want to come off as greedy pricks asking that much, even though the market says its value is that high. The acts know this, the venue knows this, the promoters know this, the ticketing company knows this and the scalpers really know this. So...

The venue, the promoter, the ticketing agency and often the artist camp (artist, management and agent) take tickets from the pool of available seats and feed them directly to the re-seller (which from this point on will be referred to by their true name: SCALPER). I am not saying every one of the above entities all do this, nor am I saying they do it for all shows but this is a very common practice that happens more often than not. There is money to be made and they feel they should participate in it. There are a number of scams they employ to pull this off which is beyond the scope of this note.

StubHub.com is an example of a re-seller / scalper. So is TicketsNow.com.

Here's the rub: TicketMaster has essentially been a monopoly for many years - certainly up until Live Nation's exclusive deal ran out. They could have (and can right now) stop the secondary market dead in its tracks by doing the following: limit the amount of sales per customer, print names on the tickets and require ID / ticket matches at the venue. We know this works because we do it for our pre-sales. Why don't THEY do it? It's obvious - they make a lot of money fueling the secondary market. TicketMaster even bought a re-seller site and often bounces you over to that site to buy tickets (TicketsNow.com)!

NIN gets 10% of the available seats for our own pre-sale. We won a tough (and I mean TOUGH) battle to get the best seats. We require you to sign up at our site (for free) to get tickets. We limit the amount you can buy, we print your name on the tickets and we have our own person let you in a separate entrance where we check your ID to match the ticket. We charge you a surcharge that has been less than TicketMaster's or Live Nation's in all cases so far to pay for the costs of doing this - it's not a profit center for us. We have essentially stopped scalping by doing these things - because we want true fans to be able to get great seats and not get ripped off by these parasites.

I assure you nobody in the NIN camp supplies or supports the practice of supplying tickets to these re-sellers because it's not something we morally feel is the right thing to do. We are leaving money on the table here but it's not always about money.
Being completely honest, it IS something I've had to consider. If people are willing to pay a lot of money to sit up front AND ARE GOING TO ANYWAY thanks to the rigged system, why let that money go into the hands of the scalpers? I'm the one busting my ass up there every night. The conclusion really came down to it not feeling like the right thing to do - simple as that.

My guess as to what will eventually happen if / when Live Nation and TicketMaster merges is that they'll move to an auction or market-based pricing scheme - which will simply mean it will cost a lot more to get a good seat for a hot show. They will simply BECOME the scalper, eliminating them from the mix.

Nothing's going to change until the ticketing entity gets serious about stopping the problem - which of course they don't see as a problem. The ultimate way to hurt scalpers is to not support them. Leave them holding the merchandise. If this subject interests you, check out the following links. Don't buy from scalpers, and be suspect of artists singing the praises of the Live Nation / TicketMaster merger. What's in it for them?

* I fully realize by playing those venues we are getting into bed with all these guys. I've learned to choose my fights and at this point in time it would be logistically too difficult to attempt to circumvent the venues / promoter / ticketing infrastructure already in place for this type of tour. For those of you about to snipe "it's your fault for playing there, etc... " - I know it is.


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## Glenn (Aug 26, 2010)

legalskier said:


> _The 70-year-old rock icon..._



Damn, he's getting old. 

"I'll be back for an encore in two hours. I need a nap and some "Ensure"...... I may need to change my Depends. I felt something funny during Huricane. Wait...did I even sing that song?" 

:razz:


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## ctenidae (Aug 26, 2010)

Saw him about 10 years ago in Boston. It was, sad to say, terrible.Could hardly tell what song he was even playing, much less make out the mumbles.


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## mondeo (Aug 26, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Have you ever seen Dylan live before? I don't think this will be a problem. God Bless his fabulous songwriting, but he sucks live.


But, he's Dylan. People don't realize he can't sing, for some reason.

Yeah, this is going to turn into a complete shit show. If there's one thing that 1973 told us, it's artifically depressing prices on a limited supply of a commodity turns out _really _well.

There's another way for bands to bring down ticket prices to what people feel is reasonable and eliminate scalping. Play more shows or larger venues. They always talk about the demand side of the equation, but they always assume equal supply. If you really care about your fans that much that you're willing to make a sacrifice, make the tour longer and double up where you need to.


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## bvibert (Aug 26, 2010)

Who's Bob Dylan, some sort of Country singer or something??


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## dmc (Aug 26, 2010)

Dylan is hit of miss - last time I saw him was HIT!!  His band was sick!  Larry Campbell on Guitar...


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## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2010)

Larry Campbell Is indeed the Man.  

What Bob should do is get someone else to sing and then just stand on stage like he did in the Subterrean Homesick Blues Video.  :lol:

http://vimeo.com/1806062


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## drjeff (Aug 26, 2010)

dmc said:


> Be interested to see how it all works out..
> 
> I got some sweet seats for Roger Water performing the Wall.  Got them from the presale off his website.   Trick is - I have to go and pick them up.  They didn't mail any of them.  I'm imagining a cluster F at MSG and Hartford.



Hartford probably won't be too bad, since once the work day is done, unless there's a concert or a UCONN game at the XL center going on, downtown Hartford is dead after the work day is done, since so few people actually live down by the XL center.  And even when there is something at the XL, you have plenty of space in the blocks and blocks that surround the XL center to accomodate the maybe 20,000 folks going to the show.


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## dmc (Aug 26, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Hartford probably won't be too bad, since once the work day is done, unless there's a concert or a UCONN game at the XL center going on, downtown Hartford is dead after the work day is done, since so few people actually live down by the XL center.  And even when there is something at the XL, you have plenty of space in the blocks and blocks that surround the XL center to accomodate the maybe 20,000 folks going to the show.



Good to know - thanks!


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## riverc0il (Aug 26, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> This is from Trent Reznor who explains the situation well.
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> * I fully realize by playing those venues we are getting into bed with all these guys. I've learned to choose my fights and at this point in time it would be logistically too difficult to attempt to circumvent the venues / promoter / ticketing infrastructure already in place for this type of tour. For those of you about to snipe "it's your fault for playing there, etc... " - I know it is.


Nice post. I appreciate Reznor's view on the industry. He's blunt about his own needs as a hard working musician but also frank about understanding he is part of the machine he doesn't think works with the consumer in mind. NIN had a big issue with CD distribution somewhere in the world and they released some raw stuff via Creative Commons licensing (read: "free"). He gets both sides and I can appreciate his frankness. Just wish NIN would get back to making kick ass music like they used to before 2000!!!


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## riverc0il (Aug 26, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Who's Bob Dylan, some sort of Country singer or something??


Ha. Nice try playing dumb but everyone knows Dylan is the most over rated rock star* of the 20th century. Even deaf people know that. :blink:

:smash:

*I was about to type "musician" but I couldn't bring myself to do it until he gets some voice lessons.


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## billski (Aug 26, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Ha. Nice try playing dumb but everyone knows Dylan is the most over rated rock star* of the 20th century. .



I've always held high is song-writing ability and his messages.  I listened to him as a teen  when he was writing his best.  Others do his songs much more justice in concert.  Everyone knows this.  His fans appreciate the intrinsic value of the man, not his ability to sing or perform.


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## riverc0il (Aug 26, 2010)

billski said:


> I've always held high is song-writing ability and his messages.  I listened to him as a teen  when he was writing his best.  Others do his songs much more justice in concert.  Everyone knows this.  His fans appreciate the intrinsic value of the man, not his ability to sing or perform.


I get it Bill, no worries. Just playing off B's joke and adding a little fuel to the play fire. 

But on a serious note, when it comes to music, I can not separate a man and a message from his craft which includes singing and performing when you are a singer/songwriter. I know his fans can but for me it is all about the music not about the person creating it.


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## billski (Aug 27, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I get it Bill, no worries. Just playing off B's joke and adding a little fuel to the play fire.
> 
> But on a serious note, when it comes to music, I can not separate a man and a message from his craft which includes singing and performing when you are a singer/songwriter. I know his fans can but for me it is all about the music not about the person creating it.


 
I'm a little suprised you say that, since there are a lot of great songwriters who never performed.  Take show tune writers Rogers and Hammerstein .  I know that example won't go well with this audience, but it makes the point.  

Then you've got the writers who barely get the credit and the performers get all the credit - examples being child-singers like Taylor Swift who are the product of a massive marketing machine.  If you notice on the song credits, it says something like "Smith-Swift"  Well, um, yeah, she added the last word or something minor.  

A more successful example of a writer-breakthough was Carol King.  She penned for a decade some of the most successful pop songs of the 50s (yeah, she's in her 70s now).  Back in the 80's she started to dust off those classics and perform, once she had established in her own right.  She does have a good voice and and delivery a fine concert.

And yeah, I actually dislike listening to Dylan's performances - His voice is quite unpleasant.  The only recordings I own of his are compilations such as Woodstock where he got a track or two on the vinyl.


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> But on a serious note, when it comes to music, I can not separate a man and a message from his craft which includes singing and performing when you are a singer/songwriter. I know his fans can but for me it is all about the music not about the person creating it.



Well if you say it's the way it is then it must be so...  

Dylan to many people - is a genius - he certainly is to me.

I and many other people enjoy his vocal stylings - count me as one of them..  And most importantly his song writing..

I love Niel Young too - and he's friggin tone deaf!   I know people that have walked out of his shows..
Willie Nelson can't stay in the rhythm and sounds off to many but he's just riffing like jazz singers..

Sometimes the awkwardness of the vocal adds to the words.   It may be a bit deeper then you'd like to get with your music but to me it's works..


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Ha. Nice try playing dumb but everyone knows Dylan is the most over rated rock star* of the 20th century. Even deaf people know that. :blink:
> 
> :smash:
> 
> *I was about to type "musician" but I couldn't bring myself to do it until he gets some voice lessons.



Shame on the people that overrate him.. And the people that buy into it so they can turn around and diss him.. 

He's no rock star and he is a musician.   You imply the you have to sing to be a musician - I strongly disagree.  He writes great songs - can play guitar and puts together some epic bands..

You should stick to disagreeing with people about something you know about... Wahtever that is..


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## legalskier (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> You imply the you have to sing to be a musician - I strongly disagree.  He writes great songs .




+1
Just think of how many people there are with beautiful voices but are still practicing up in the attic wondering why they haven't gotten anywhere.


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## ctenidae (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> He's no rock star and he is a musician.   You imply the you have to sing to be a musician - I strongly disagree.  He writes great songs - can play guitar and puts together some epic bands..



Agree. It's just his performance that has slipped over the past few decades.


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Agree. It's just his performance that has slipped over the past few decades.



He's 70...  

His band is amazing... Top of the line..


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## ctenidae (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> He's 70...
> 
> His band is amazing... Top of the line..



Incedible, isn't it?
And really, what musician wouldn't jump at the chance to play with him, even just once?


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Incedible, isn't it?
> And really, what musician wouldn't jump at the chance to play with him, even just once?



I would...  but I'm not a musician.. I'm a drummer... haha...


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## ctenidae (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> I would...  but I'm not a musician.. I'm a drummer... haha...



Right- you don't sing.

You need a t-shiirt: Percussionists are musicians, too.


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> Right- you don't sing.
> 
> You need a t-shiirt: Percussionists are musicians, too.



Good one!

I get stuck singing a lot... It actually amazes people..  I can use my limbs independently AND sing a melody..     I'm not Dylan - but I can belt out a tune when required..  ha...ha..  Pretty funny when you consider I'm dyslexic..


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## bvibert (Aug 27, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Ha. Nice try playing dumb but everyone knows Dylan is the most over rated rock star* of the 20th century. Even deaf people know that. :blink:
> 
> :smash:
> 
> *I was about to type "musician" but I couldn't bring myself to do it until he gets some voice lessons.



I was being somewhat serious.  I've heard of him, but I couldn't tell you one thing he's done, what kind of music he plays, etc..  Before this thread I couldn't have even told you if he was dead or alive.

I'm just not that into music.  I like listening to some of it, but I just can't seem to really care about who is performing it for the most part.  It's a miracle if I can tell you what bands perform the songs I listen to a lot, but there's virtually no chance that I'll be able to tell you who is in a particular band or any of it's history.  I mean what does it really matter?  As long as I like the music what difference does it make to me who sings it?


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## ctenidae (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> Good one!
> 
> I get stuck singing a lot... It actually amazes people..  I can use my limbs independently AND sing a melody..     I'm not Dylan - but I can belt out a tune when required..  ha...ha..  Pretty funny when you consider I'm dyslexic..



so, you're like Phil Collins?

/couldn't resist.


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I was being somewhat serious.  I've heard of him, but I couldn't tell you one thing he's done, what kind of music he plays, etc..  Before this thread I couldn't have even told you if he was dead or alive.
> 
> I'm just not that into music.  I like listening to some of it, but I just can't seem to really care about who is performing it for the most part.  It's a miracle if I can tell you what bands perform the songs I listen to a lot, but there's virtually no chance that I'll be able to tell you who is in a particular band or any of it's history.  I mean what does it really matter?  As long as I like the music what difference does it make to me who sings it?



Music means different things to different people..  

Chances are your hearing Dylan as an inspiration to the artists you like...   
I hear Dylan influence in a lot of song writers..


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

ctenidae said:


> so, you're like Phil Collins?
> 
> /couldn't resist.



Bleeech... Only when he was the drummer for Genesis with Peter Gabriel..
Some of his solo stuff is tollerable

He's actually a friggin great drummer...


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## Black Phantom (Aug 27, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I was being somewhat serious.  I've heard of him, but I couldn't tell you one thing he's done, what kind of music he plays, etc..  Before this thread I couldn't have even told you if he was dead or alive.
> 
> I'm just not that into music.  I like listening to some of it, but I just can't seem to really care about who is performing it for the most part.  It's a miracle if I can tell you what bands perform the songs I listen to a lot, but there's virtually no chance that I'll be able to tell you who is in a particular band or any of it's history.  I mean what does it really matter?  As long as I like the music what difference does it make to me who sings it?


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## legalskier (Aug 27, 2010)

bvibert said:


> I've heard of him, but I couldn't tell you one thing he's done, what kind of music he plays, etc..  Before this thread I couldn't have even told you if he was dead or alive.
> I mean what does it really matter?



Well, with Dylan it was always more than his music. He influenced an entire generation, and beyond:

_Much of his most celebrated work dates from the 1960s when he was at first an informal chronicler, and later an apparently reluctant figurehead of social unrest. A number of his songs such as "Blowin' in the Wind" and "The Times They Are A-Changin'" became *anthems for the civil rights and anti-war movements*. His early lyrics incorporated a variety of political, social and philosophical, as well as literary influences. They defied existing pop music conventions and appealed hugely to the then burgeoning counterculture.... Dylan has both amplified and personalized musical genres, exploring numerous distinct traditions in American song—from folk, blues and country to gospel, rock and roll, and rockabilly, to English, Scottish, and Irish folk music, embracing even jazz and swing._
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan


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## gorgonzola (Aug 27, 2010)

i have an affinity for bad singers / good songwriters....dylan, steve earle, john hiatt


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## dmc (Aug 27, 2010)

gorgonzola said:


> i have an affinity for bad singers / good songwriters....dylan, steve earle, john hiatt



Tom Waits...


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## gorgonzola (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> Tom Waits...



absolutely...although he can border on downright painful!


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## riverc0il (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> Sometimes the awkwardness of the vocal adds to the words.   It may be a bit deeper then you'd like to get with your music but to me it's works..


Alice in Chains is one of my favorite bands. Layne Staley sure didn't have perfect pitch so I can appreciate vocals that are not completely musically on key. Interestingly enough, one of my biggest issues with pop music this day is its lack of pitch imperfections (at least not intentional imperfections). But Dylan man, just hurts my ears. Its all good. And I can appreciate "deep". Its more about tastes. 

@Bill: I can appreciate song writers. I meant my comments more in regards to rock songwriters that also perform, not songwriters that write for others. I dig show tunes just as much as the next guy... but that isn't really on the topic I was referring to.


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## riverc0il (Aug 27, 2010)

dmc said:


> Shame on the people that overrate him.. And the people that buy into it so they can turn around and diss him..
> 
> He's no rock star and he is a musician.   You imply the you have to sing to be a musician - I strongly disagree.  He writes great songs - can play guitar and puts together some epic bands..
> 
> You should stick to disagreeing with people about something you know about... Wahtever that is..


Wow, dude. Most over serious reply to a joke. 

Really? C'mon, you are being a little ridiculous here. Sorry, you are not the only one entitled to your opinion and to your right to share it with others online. But what do I know.....


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## roark (Aug 27, 2010)

Dylan is a genius. There are less than a handful of artists where i can still discover new (to me) tunes after listening for 20+ yrs. Dylan is one. Finally getting around to the born-again period... as much as I hate the message there's still some brilliant music!


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## dmc (Aug 28, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, dude. Most over serious reply to a joke.
> 
> Really? C'mon, you are being a little ridiculous here. Sorry, you are not the only one entitled to your opinion and to your right to share it with others online. But what do I know.....



You gotta get better with smileys and stuff..

Hey - I love Dylan.. It's my opinion.  And I want other people to love him so his legacy lives on.  He's near to my heart..  so there...


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## dmc (Aug 28, 2010)

roark said:


> Dylan is a genius. There are less than a handful of artists where i can still discover new (to me) tunes after listening for 20+ yrs. Dylan is one. Finally getting around to the born-again period... as much as I hate the message there's still some brilliant music!



Yeah - "Neighborhood Bully" came on the rotation the other day..  Forgot what a poignent song it was...

"Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
His enemies say he’s on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He’s the neighborhood bully"


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