# The new 6-pack replacing the Bonnie at Jay Peak is on its way



## fbrissette (Jan 24, 2013)

Not a big surprise, but at least confirmation that it's for this summer.  Another reason they need to do this this summer is that the current loading area of the Bonnie is right where they want to build the new hotel. This was sent to homeowners:


_This outreach is to share information on a proposed building project at Jay Peak Resort. This _
_project is proposed to install a new 6-passenger chair lift we are calling “Power Line Lift”.  The _
_proposed construction for this season consists of installing the lift structure and equipment, site _
_grading in the loading and unloading areas, a storage building for the detachable chairs, and _
_building lift attendant huts at the top and bottom terminals. Detailed plans of the proposed _
_construction are available at the Jay Town Clerk’s office for your review, along with building _
_plans and permit applications. We have attached a map of the proposed project location for your _
_review. _


_The Power Line Lift project will be discussed at a Town of Jay Zoning Board meeting on _
_February 11, 2013 at 7:15pm._


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## fbrissette (Jan 24, 2013)

I guess I should also add the following:

New Stateside Hotel:
_This outreach is to share information on a proposed building project at Jay Peak Resort. This _
_project is located on a portion of land owned by Jay Peak Inc. situated at the existing Stateside _
_Base Area, and is called “Stateside Hotel & Day Lodge”. The proposed construction for this _
_season consists of a 84-unit Hotel and Day Lodge to improve and expand the services currently _
_provided by the Stateside Chalet. This project also includes associated infrastructure and parking.  _
_Detailed plans of the proposed construction are available at the Jay Town Clerk’s office for your _
_review, along with building plans and permit applications. We have attached a drawing of the _
_site for your review._

And yet more rooms (80 units with one or two beds):
_This outreach is to share information on a proposed building project at Jay Peak Resort. This _
_project is located on a portion of land owned by Jay Peak Inc. situated near the existing Jay Peak _
_Village along Jay Peak Road, and is called “Lodge & Townhouses Phase 2”.  The proposed _
_construction for this season consists of 18 residential buildings, specifically eight 3-unit, two 12-_
_unit, and eight 4-unit buildings with a mix of one or two bedrooms each. This project also _
_includes associated infrastructure and new alignment of Jay Peak Rd. Detailed plans of the _
_proposed construction are available at the Jay Town Clerk’s office for your review, along with _
_building plans and permit applications. We have attached a drawing of the site for your review. 

_Nothing about the West Bowl however.


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> Not a big surprise, but at least confirmation that it's for this summer.  Another reason they need to do this this summer is that the current loading area of the Bonnie is right where they want to build the new hotel. This was sent to homeowners:



Also why they put the new Taxi lift up higher and a PIA to get to this year.


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## fbrissette (Jan 24, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Also why they put the new Taxi lift up higher and a PIA to get to this year.



Correct.


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## crank (Jan 24, 2013)

I too was wondering why they put that lift so far up the damn hill.


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## BigJay (Jan 24, 2013)

Cause once the hotel and new lodge is in, it will be within reach.

Say good bye to convenient lift access... you will have to climb stairs, get between the lodge and the hotel and walk up and up on concrete and steel before you touch snow. BBQ off the Bonnie is out... no more tail gate.

No more: walk a few step, clip on skis and on the lift... It will be a lot of walking and hiking to lifts... kind of like tramside...

What's next: New facilities at the bottom of the triple to "appeal to guests" using the new intermediate groomer in the orchard?

Not about skiers and riders... but resorts guests. Not the same people.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Also why they put the new Taxi lift up higher and a PIA to get to this year.



It is still going to be a 250 ft (uphill) walk from the new lodge. However, I also think a contributing factor to the location of the bottom Taxi terminal is a function of where the snowmaking line and tower guns are currently located in that area. The line is just below the bank of the Taxi quad's lift queue.  Try to squeeze the lift terminal and traversing skiers in between the new lodge and the snowmaking line would have been a mess. I think they went with the lesser of two evils by locating the lift farther upslope.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2013)

I hope that they leave the Bonnie up for windy days or mechanical failure, but I doubt they will.


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## crank (Jan 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I hope that they leave the Bonnie up for windy days or mechanical failure, but I doubt they will.



Good point.  The only thing running on windy days will be the jet.  Gee, good thing they are cutting more trails over there!


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I hope that they leave the Bonnie up for windy days or mechanical failure, but I doubt they will.



Not going to happen. The new lodge is going to be located where the Bonnie's bottom terminal currently is.

I created footprints from the most recent master plan. You can see the Bonnie's terminal inside the right side of the Hotel/Lodge.







It looks like they are setting Stateside up with a focus on the day skier. The looping road from Route 242 easily makes it the most accessible part of the resort from the road. Additionally, the parking lot has almost been doubled in size using waste fill from all of the construction.


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I hope that they leave the Bonnie up for windy days or mechanical failure, but I doubt they will.



Last time I was there the Bonnie closed because of wind or so it was stated


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## Smellytele (Jan 24, 2013)

If your drawing is accurate the Taxi is still way to high as will the new 6pack be


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> If your drawing is accurate the Taxi is still way to high as will the new 6pack be



I may not have the Taxi terminal positioned perfectly as it was built. The terminal may be slightly closer to the lodge (20 ft?) than I'm showing here. I won't know for sure until the aerial imagery with the new lift are loaded into Google Earth.

Keep in mind that even though the Powerline bottom terminal is still rather far from the lodge, at least it is a relatively flat walk. The Taxi quad's base is about 30 ft higher than the powerline 6 accord to Google Earth elevations.


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## fbrissette (Jan 24, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Last time I was there the Bonnie closed because of wind or so it was stated



The Bonnie closes from time to time, but on most windy days, you will have the Freezer and the Tram closed with the Bonnie and jet running.   

Now with the Bonnie going higher up, we'll be stuck with the Jet more often.  Which is not a bad thing if you are willing to skin up.   From the top of the Taxi quad, took me 25 minutes to get to the top of the flyer last week-end.  Then, I was absolutely all alone in Ull'rs basin.  A lot more work than crossing over from the Bonnie but higher potential rewards on a snowy wind hold day.


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## gregnye (Jan 24, 2013)

Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its about time for this lift! However, judging from how many windhold there have been this season (i have Jay Peak on my facebook) there is a windhold once or twice a week! Therefore, I am changing my opinion slightly---they should keep the old bonnie and run it during wind-hold days only as well.


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## Conrad (Jan 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I hope that they leave the Bonnie up for windy days or mechanical failure, but I doubt they will.



There are rumors that they might move "Bonnie" over to replace Jet.

*edit* more than just rumors. The master plan calls for Jet to become a fixed grip quad. The logical way of doing this would mean moving Bonnie over.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> _ We have attached a drawing of the site for your review. _



I don't see any drawings


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## ss20 (Jan 24, 2013)

:flame:
Bye bye Bonnie!
:-D


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

According to this quote on December 3rd:


fbrissette said:


> I heard from another source that the 6 pack has indeed been purchased (Doppelmayer).


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## thetrailboss (Jan 24, 2013)

Conrad said:


> There are rumors that they might move "Bonnie" over to replace Jet.
> 
> *edit* more than just rumors. The master plan calls for Jet to become a fixed grip quad. The logical way of doing this would mean moving Bonnie over.



That's right.  Honestly though you could probably get new carriers for the Jet and just leave the Bonnie alone (or move the base terminal up the slope).  If it ain't broke....


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> That's right.  Honestly though you could probably get new carriers for the Jet and just leave the Bonnie alone (or move the base terminal up the slope).  If it ain't broke....



Probably have to change out the drive on the Jet as well. That drive likely isn't powerful enough for the added weight of quad chairs and passengers.


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## Conrad (Jan 24, 2013)

ss20 said:


> :flame:View attachment 7436
> Bye bye Bonnie!
> :-DView attachment 7435



Fortunately it is well documented on remontees-mecaniques (although it could have been done on a nicer day):
http://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/bdd/reportage-4356.html


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## gregnye (Jan 24, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Fortunately it is well documented on remontees-mecaniques (although it could have been done on a nicer day):
> http://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/bdd/reportage-4356.html



I have some quality bonnie photos. Here's one of them from a cool angle


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## Conrad (Jan 24, 2013)

gregnye said:


> I have some quality bonnie photos. Here's one of them from a cool angle



I'm actually surprised the guy who did that report didn't get any photos like that. It looks really awesome!


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 24, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I'm actually surprised the guy who did that report didn't get any photos like that. It looks really awesome!



The key to that picture is a tram window that isn't iced up.


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## gregnye (Jan 24, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I'm actually surprised the guy who did that report didn't get any photos like that. It looks really awesome!



Yah unfortunately  the new crossing under the tram of the 6-pack will not be as dramatic. It will also make Can-Am look more like a wasteland than it is, not being directly under the chair.


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## fbrissette (Jan 24, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> The key to that picture is a tram window that isn't iced up.



Easier said than done.  There was a lot of snow on lift line in all of the above photos.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 31, 2013)

This just in...
Jay Peaks plans for the Doppelmayr "Power Line" HS6 lift and removal of the Bonneventure quad have been released on the Act 250 site. The new HS6 will have 19 towers and two terminals.

Overlaid in Google Earth:
The Power Line lift  will run up the Powerline trail and end under the Face Chute.






The yet to be built Stateside Lodge/Hotel is the brown building. The green building is the chair storage barn. The current Stateside lodge (to be town down) is visible in the aerial imagery under the far end of the new lodge. The Bonneventure chair base terminal is under the near side of the new lodge.





From the Sky House:





Roughly the view from the Tram as it passes over. The bank cut between the Face Chute and the lift terminal is going to be pretty substantial, like 30-36 feet tall (the dark area behind the terminal is created by 18 tighly spaced 2ft contours on the plan):





From the Bonneventure terminal:


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## Conrad (Jan 31, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> This just in...
> Jay Peaks plans for the Doppelmayr "Power Line" HS6 lift and removal of the Bonneventure quad have been released on the Act 250 site. The new HS6 will have 19 towers and two terminals.
> 
> Overlaid in Google Earth:
> ...



Neat. Has it officially been announced?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Neat. Has it officially been announced?



I got the plans from the application on Vermont Act 250 website. The application has not been approved yet, so I guess that qualifies as "not yet official".


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## gregnye (Jan 31, 2013)

They had better build it really low to the ground-----I want to this to be a "No-windhold six-pack" (I am probably hoping for way too much)

I still believe they should keep the old Bonnie as backup (at least for a year--so they can see how reliable the new lift actually is and decide whether they need a backup lift most of the time or not). Resorts out west do this  (like Steamboat)


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 31, 2013)

gregnye said:


> I still believe they should keep the old Bonnie as backup (at least for a year--so they can see how reliable the new lift actually is and decide whether they need a backup lift most of the time or not). Resorts out west do this  (like Steamboat)



They can't keep it and stay on their construction schedule. The Bonnie has to be removed before they can build the new Hotel/Lodge at Stateside.

Unless they integrate the lift into the building. :idea:


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## Conrad (Jan 31, 2013)

gregnye said:


> They had better build it really low to the ground-----I want to this to be a "No-windhold six-pack" (I am probably hoping for way too much)
> 
> I still believe they should keep the old Bonnie as backup (at least for a year--so they can see how reliable the new lift actually is and decide whether they need a backup lift most of the time or not). Resorts out west do this  (like Steamboat)



I think the new six-pack will be built on the same line as the current Bonnie is so it would not be possible for them both to exist. Not 100% certain, but it seems this way.


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## gregnye (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I think the new six-pack will be built on the same line as the current Bonnie is so it would not be possible for them both to exist. Not 100% certain, but it seems this way.



Isn't it going up Power-line though (next trail over)? Not lift line (where the current Bonnie quad is)!??  I thought that was the whole point!


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I think the new six-pack will be built on the same line as the current Bonnie is so it would not be possible for them both to exist. Not 100% certain, but it seems this way.



The Power Line HS6 is going to be built on a new (actually an old line from back in the 60's(?)) that has been home to an actual powerline.

The green bracketed area you see running up to the ridge on the right is the current Bonneventure lift line. The new Power Line has the purple line in it. The two do not intersect (other than the chair barn).


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Fortunately it is well documented on remontees-mecaniques (although it could have been done on a nicer day):
> http://www.remontees-mecaniques.net/bdd/reportage-4356.html



Wow, in those pictures you really see the age of the lift and that it is showing wear.  Not say that you can't repaint the towers and all, but it is showing its age.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Isn't it going up Power-line though (next trail over)? Not lift line (where the current Bonnie quad is)!?? I thought that was the whole point!



Yeah, as said, the new lift is going to go up the Power Line.  Just move the base of the Bonnie up the hill a little bit and you can leave it...for now...


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## BigJay (Jan 31, 2013)

They already widened the power line this year... you can see how wide it is if you had recent photos compare to previous years.


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## ss20 (Jan 31, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Wow, in those pictures you really see the age of the lift and that it is showing wear.  Not say that you can't repaint the towers and all, but it is showing its age.



Better than the old Rust Ridge Cripple at Killington:


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## Conrad (Jan 31, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Isn't it going up Power-line though (next trail over)? Not lift line (where the current Bonnie quad is)!??  I thought that was the whole point!



Oops, guess I wasn't doing my homework!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2013)

ss20 said:


> Better than the old Rust Ridge Cripple at Killington:
> View attachment 7512



Yeah that is true!  RIP South Ridge Triple!


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## riverc0il (Jan 31, 2013)

Wow, why didn't they place the base terminal closer? That is a crazy walk from the lodge! Does building code for their multi-story fancypants swankass lodge prevent them from building the lift closer? I'm sure going to enjoy walking across a ski trail in which skiers are maxing out their speed to make the Jet traverse without having to skate much. :roll: I feel bad for the beginners and low intermediates having to hike up to the Taxi Quad. Ridiculous.

The end terminal makes sense. I concur with the previously expressed sentiment that more wind holds can be good. The Bonnie usually runs except in the absolute worst wind. When the Bonnie goes down, it is usually enough to bring the Jet down too, though sometimes the Jet can keep going when the Bonnie can't. The HS6 will surely get shut down significantly more often than the Bonnie.

So we will have a trail called Liftline with no lift and we'll have a trail called Power Line and a lift called the Power Lift Lift named after a power line that is no longer there. Hmmmm...

NEK... do those lines around Power Line and Liftline mean they are going to widen both routes? It makes sense to widen Powder Line for a 6 pack but why Liftline? 

Thank goodness they are slowing rolling out these changes over the course of many years. I think I'd feint if all of this happened all at once. :-?


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## xlr8r (Jan 31, 2013)

My main concern is that the unload area and trails will be too tight and narrow for a six pack lift.  The trail leading down towards JFK looks steep enough so that it will become a skating rink leading on to Northway.  I don't see why moving the lift line is necessary, the current location of the Bonnie works well and has a nice large unload area.  This new alignment seems to be more exposed to wind and has a tighter unload area with skier traffic issues.  With the only benefit of the new alignment being access to the JFK and Ullr's side of the mountain, which you cannot lap from this new lift anyway.


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## riverc0il (Jan 31, 2013)

I think the new location makes complete sense... a return to a former line that they got right the first time. 

No, you can't lap any of the trails that dump out onto Ullr's. But you could go back and forth between the Bonnie and the Six Pack very easily... you would take the Freezer to ski the Bonnie runs and then take the Six to ski the Ullr's runs. Very easily done and lots of options every run. Whereas currently, you need to uphill traverse against traffic to get to JFK or Beaver... something very very few guests are going to attempt even with good reason. 

I don't see an issue with the unload area. There will be a short connector to get to the Freezer side and St. George gets you to the same location as the current Bonnie. These aren't exactly "trails" but rather more connectors. I don't know how it will all play out but St. George is pretty darn mellow, I don't think it is going to be an issue.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Wow, why didn't they place the base terminal closer? That is a crazy walk from the lodge! Does building code for their multi-story fancypants swankass lodge prevent them from building the lift closer? I'm sure going to enjoy walking across a ski trail in which skiers are maxing out their speed to make the Jet traverse without having to skate much. :roll: I feel bad for the beginners and low intermediates having to hike up to the Taxi Quad. Ridiculous.



When the new lodge is in and the re-grading all done, I don't think it will be as bad as it looks. I don't think it will be much worse than getting to the lifts on Tramside.

Compare Tramside:






To Stateside:





As far as I can figure from the plans, the Hotel part of the building will be primarily on the left (toward the Jet) and the lodge on the right (toward the old lodge). In the plans, you can make out a Patio/Deck area wrapping around the right side of the new Lodge. According to the contour lines on the plan, the elevation of the patio would be around 2040'.  The parking lot is 20' lower that the patio. The Taxi lift is 25' higher. The Power Line lift is only 8 ft higher. 

The Blue dot in the picture is a snow gun tower. I think the location of the tower plays into why the Taxi was built so far uphill. 



riverc0il said:


> NEK... do those lines around Power Line and Liftline mean they are going to widen both routes? It makes sense to widen Powder Line for a 6 pack but why Liftline?



I think those are just lines that deliniate the outter edge a buffer zone around the area that will be disturbed during the deconstruction of the Bonnie and the construction of the Power Line.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2013)

I think that FTN is actually Burke/Jay's engineer/architect in disguise....

Nice graphics.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2013)

xlr8r said:


> My main concern is that the unload area and trails will be too tight and narrow for a six pack lift.  The trail leading down towards JFK looks steep enough so that it will become a skating rink leading on to Northway.  I don't see why moving the lift line is necessary, the current location of the Bonnie works well and has a nice large unload area.  This new alignment seems to be more exposed to wind and has a tighter unload area with skier traffic issues.  With the only benefit of the new alignment being access to the JFK and Ullr's side of the mountain, which you cannot lap from this new lift anyway.



I'll agree with Riv on this one. The unload area of the new lift is going to be pretty large since they are cutting back into the mountainside quite a bit. And then there are three primary trails to move traffic away. The Connector with Northway, St George's Prayer, and the Power Line (liftline) itself. 
(As Noted by Riv: they are going to have to rename Lift Line (trail where the Bonneventure is) to avoid confusion. I nominate they change it to simply "Bonneventure".)


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that FTN is actually Burke/Jay's engineer/architect in disguise....
> 
> Nice graphics.



Hey! I'm getting paid BIG bucks for this.


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## fbrissette (Feb 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Hey! I'm getting paid BIG bucks for this.




I think ski resorts should get the idea and be more proactive with doing this sort of stuff.  Good stuff indeed !


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## BigJay (Feb 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I'll agree with Riv on this one. The unload area of the new lift is going to be pretty large since they are cutting back into the mountainside quite a bit. And then there are three primary trails to move traffic away. The Connector with Northway, St George's Prayer, and the Power Line (liftline) itself.
> (As Noted by Riv: they are going to have to rename Lift Line (trail where the Bonneventure is) to avoid confusion. I nominate they change it to simply "Bonneventure".)



On this photo, i don't think the placement of the terminal is right... why would you move it to the side... when you have a perfectly alignment already? There use to be a lift there... the old line should be good already. Maybe you need to widen it for a six-pack... but redoing the line is not the best idea... opening things up will make it more susceptible for high winds anyways.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2013)

It is correct according to the plan. 
The center of the new line is actually about 14 ft south of the old double line. At the summit the old line has become rather grown in. So they will likely brush it out a bit. 
You can see below that there is a definite vegetation transition to the right of the line between the terminal and Northway.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> It is correct according to the plan.
> The center of the new line is actually about 14 ft south of the old double line. At the summit the old line has become rather grown in. So they will likely brush it out a bit.
> You can see below that there is a definite vegetation transition to the right of the line between the terminal and Northway.



What's that blue area?  A new trail?


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Feb 1, 2013)

BigJay said:


> They already widened the power line this year... you can see how wide it is if you had recent photos compare to previous years.



Wow, sad to read that. I was hoping to get to ski it again in its original post-bonnie-double state before the new lift goes in.


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## riverc0il (Feb 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> I don't think it will be much worse than getting to the lifts on Tramside.


That sounds like an excuse for continuing to screw up the second time around instead of fixing past mistakes and getting it right. :lol: Look at the Willoughby Quad at Burke for an ideal HSQ placement. A short and flat skate from the lodge. Cannon also has good placement. Waterville and Loon, also good placement. Sugarloaf, as good as can be had given the lift line.

At least it isn't like Stowe? :-?


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## Tin Woodsman (Feb 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> When the new lodge is in and the re-grading all done, I don't think it will be as bad as it looks. I don't think it will be much worse than getting to the lifts on Tramside.
> 
> Compare Tramside:
> 
> ...



So in order to get to the lifts in what will become the key learning area for Jay, beginner skiers will need to trudge uphill between 35-45' from the parking lot?  Another brilliant job by Bill Stenger!!


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## gregnye (Feb 1, 2013)

Tin Woodsman said:


> So in order to get to the lifts in what will become the key learning area for Jay, beginner skiers will need to trudge uphill between 35-45' from the parking lot?  Another brilliant job by Bill Stenger!!


 Raise Em' Jay!!!  Youngin's are perfectly capable of walking.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 1, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


>





thetrailboss said:


> What's that blue area? A new trail?



Yes, you can see it in the picture above. It has been on the Masterplan for a while now. It comes right of the ridge and meanders down to feed into Lower Milk run. I figure they want to have another intermediate trail off the new 6pack rather than having everyone end up on Northway.


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## Tin Woodsman (Feb 2, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Raise Em' Jay!!!  Youngin's are perfectly capable of walking.


But they sure as hell won't like it.  Isn't the idea to make it as convenient as possible so you can hook them and raise 'em Jay?  Or will they be too busy in the water park to notice?


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## Tin Woodsman (Feb 2, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Yes, you can see it in the picture above. It has been on the Masterplan for a while now. It comes right of the ridge and meanders down to feed into Lower Milk run. I figure they want to have another intermediate trail off the new 6pack rather than having everyone end up on Northway.


Would that really be an intermediate run though?  If so, that's a major development.  I sense that would be an intermediate run just like JFK is - pretty advanced for most.


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## gregnye (Feb 2, 2013)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Would that really be an intermediate run though?  If so, that's a major development.  I sense that would be an intermediate run just like JFK is - pretty advanced for most.



Isn't JFK an expert trail? Surely not as steep as Can Am but still an expert trail (its labeled diamond on the map). I highly doubt that this trail will be intermediate. It seems too steep there.

Hopefully it does not become another goat run--that is the last thing we need.


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## riverc0il (Feb 2, 2013)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Would that really be an intermediate run though?  If so, that's a major development.  I sense that would be an intermediate run just like JFK is - pretty advanced for most.


JFK is a black. That new run could be intermediate if snow making and grooming are done. It would be near the pitch of Canyonland I would imagine since it parallels it. As I recall, the area between Northway and Deliverance isn't as steep as Deliverance as I've viewed it from the lift. The biggest issue with that trail is the intersection with new Liftline (nee Powerline).


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## fbrissette (Feb 2, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> JFK is a black. That new run could be intermediate if snow making and grooming are done. It would be near the pitch of Canyonland I would imagine since it parallels it. As I recall, the area between Northway and Deliverance isn't as steep as Deliverance as I've viewed it from the lift. The biggest issue with that trail is the intersection with new Liftline (nee Powerline).



JFK is a soft black.   This new run has exactly the same average gradient as JFK.  JFK is steeper in its first pitch but easier after.  
This new run has a constant pitch from top to bottom.  Almost twice as steep as Northway.  A hard blue.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 2, 2013)

If my calculations are correct, this trail would be somewhat like Upper Willloughby at Burke in terms of steepness. Average slope around 37%. Can Am is around 55%. JFK is around 38% but it is rarely groomed which helps it get a diamond rating.


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## gregnye (Feb 3, 2013)

ss20 said:


> :-DView attachment 7435



Hopefully they don't get chairs with seats that flip up to prevent snow collection (like this picture). Since they have a "chair-barn" they really don't need this feature and it just becomes annoying as the downhill seats like to flip-up on the windy days (saw this at the south peak chair at Loon--they had to run it slower so that the lifty could flip the seats back down before people got on it).

There doesn't seem to be this problem on the Flyer--but than that lift is not Dopplelmayr (which I think has this feature).

As I said--I want this lift to be as wind proof as possible--even if it has to be as low to the ground as the superstar chair @ Killington. 

I would rather sacrifice part of the powerline trail to a low lying--wind resistant lift than to be able to ski the powerline trail with a lift that is way too high above the trees and therefore always on wind-hold.

Just my 2 cents!


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## JPTracker (Feb 3, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> If my calculations are correct, this trail would be somewhat like Upper Willloughby at Burke in terms of steepness. Average slope around 37%. Can Am is around 55%. JFK is around 38% but it is rarely groomed which helps it get a diamond rating.



JFK has been groomed, usually every night, for as long as I can remember after they made snow on it. That may change since they are no longer make snow on it. So far this year they have not groomed it and it is not currently open.


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## JPTracker (Feb 3, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> ... That new run could be intermediate if snow making and grooming are done. ...



This could be a problem. Jay is restricted on the acreage they can make snow on. This year when they added snow making for the new Taxi lift and the Learning center they discontinued snow making on Exhibition and JFK. If they added snow making to this new trail then some other trail will loose snow making. 

JFK without the snow making has not been nearly as ski able as previous years. I think the snow making on JFK will be missed. The snow making on Exhibition probable will not since may people prefer that trail natural since the snow making buried all the cliffs and jumps on the trail.


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## Telemechanic (Feb 3, 2013)

gregnye said:


> Hopefully they don't get chairs with seats that flip up to prevent snow collection (like this picture). Since they have a "chair-barn" they really don't need this feature and it just becomes annoying as the downhill seats like to flip-up on the windy days (saw this at the south peak chair at Loon--they had to run it slower so that the lifty could flip the seats back down before people got on it).
> 
> There doesn't seem to be this problem on the Flyer--but than that lift is not Dopplelmayr (which I think has this feature).
> 
> ...



South Peak was running slow because the wind was causing some chair swing, not so the lifties could flip down seats.

Its possible to get chair seats with latches. Doppelmayr's CTEC type chairs don't have latches but the European style ones do, like Loon's Kanc Quad & Tote Rd. quads.


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## gregnye (Feb 3, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> This could be a problem. Jay is restricted on the acreage they can make snow on. This year when they added snow making for the new Taxi lift and the Learning center they discontinued snow making on Exhibition and JFK. If they added snow making to this new trail then some other trail will loose snow making.
> 
> JFK without the snow making has not been nearly as ski able as previous years. I think the snow making on JFK will be missed. The snow making on Exhibition probable will not since may people prefer that trail natural since the snow making buried all the cliffs and jumps on the trail.




So what will happen if/when they expand to the west bowl? Will we lose more snowmaking on the main mountain?

We can't keep relying on the new england snow blizzards in the future. I am not going to get into a discussion on global warming but in reality, in the future  we are looking at much more rapid changes in temperatures (deep freeze and then warm-up) not just a general warming of the planet. 

To conclude, without snowmaking on the essential trails it is better to leave Jay the same size as it is. If they cannot maintain snowmaking on feature trails such as JFK, Vermonter, Can Am etc. than they shouldn't be expanding.

Or just make all the trails in the west bowl glades----no snowmaking=win win for everyone!:lol:

Another of my 2 cents. (bringing a grand total of 4 cents in this thread )


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## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> This could be a problem. Jay is restricted on the acreage they can make snow on. This year when they added snow making for the new Taxi lift and the Learning center they discontinued snow making on Exhibition and JFK. If they added snow making to this new trail then some other trail will loose snow making.
> 
> JFK without the snow making has not been nearly as ski able as previous years. I think the snow making on JFK will be missed. The snow making on Exhibition probable will not since may people prefer that trail natural since the snow making buried all the cliffs and jumps on the trail.



Huh? Where did you hear that? Why is that? That makes no sense. Could it be that they just decided to make snow on lower trails instead?


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## BigJay (Feb 4, 2013)

fbrissette said:


> JFK is a soft black.   This new run has exactly the same average gradient as JFK.  JFK is steeper in its first pitch but easier after.
> This new run has a constant pitch from top to bottom.  Almost twice as steep as Northway.  A hard blue.



JFK was a BLUE trail for many many many years. In fact, i never realized it was changed to a black... with snowmaking and grooming, it still feels like a blue trail for most of it... except the first pitch. It's probably a "soft black" like you said... but if you don't groom it and you don't put snowmaking on it... then it becomes a "black" just like the Hot Shot is.


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## JPTracker (Feb 4, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Huh? Where did you hear that? Why is that? That makes no sense. Could it be that they just decided to make snow on lower trails instead?



Back in 2010 as part of ACT250 permit 7R0854-6-1 they discussed the snow making.

The following document explains there snow making plans and limitations:

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/imaging/...a - Snowmaking Coverage Summary Narrative.pdf

I have heard rumors since the beginning of the season about this. I have not seen anything documenting the latest changes but Steve Wright has confirmed that there will be no snow making on Exhibition in previous post and the no snow making for JFK is just rumor. Both these trails have been skipped over in the normal snow making cycles confirming the rumors.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 4, 2013)

Is the acreage limitation based on amount of water available from the Jay Branch Brook? Or is it some sort of limitation the VT Water Quality Division is placing on Jay?
Are other resorts restricted to a certain amount of acreage? I always thought this type of thing was a water access issue (see Killington).


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## JPTracker (Feb 4, 2013)

from_the_NEK said:


> Is the acreage limitation based on amount of water available from the Jay Branch Brook? Or is it some sort of limitation the VT Water Quality Division is placing on Jay?
> Are other resorts restricted to a certain amount of acreage? I always thought this type of thing was a water access issue (see Killington).



The way I see it they have both an acreage restriction and a water restriction.

I also heard that the were fined for drawing to much water from the Jay Branch Brook last year.


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## BigJay (Feb 4, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> I also heard that the were fined for drawing to much water from the Jay Branch Brook last year.



Yes, they didn't file the papers regarding how much water they pumped in Jan and Feb... so they were fined for a few 1000$... a little slap on the hand.


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## riverc0il (Feb 4, 2013)

Interesting about the snow making issue. I assumed they didn't blow on Exhibition and JFK because of the December snow storms, I figured they thought they had enough natural snow and turned off the guns on certain trails to reduce expenses. I'm fine with Exhibition and JFK being natural. As noted, Exhibition skis much better natural due to the cliffs and JFK certainly is better natural from my perspective. However, those that enjoy groomers would disagree. Goodness knows Jay has a hard enough time appealing to the groomer demographic already without taking two more snow making trails off line. I think it is safe to say that West Bowl continues to be a pipe dream so I don't think we need to worry about snow making from that perspective.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 4, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> Back in 2010 as part of ACT250 permit 7R0854-6-1 they discussed the snow making.
> 
> The following document explains there snow making plans and limitations:
> 
> ...



Thanks for finding that.  All I can say is weird.  I perused it quickly, but those limitations are really ridiculous considering that they are growing JPR.  I imagine that they will eventually build another pond to allow for them to expand snowmaking terrain.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2013)

JPTracker said:


> The way I see it they have both an acreage restriction and a water restriction.
> 
> I also heard that the were fined for drawing to much water from the Jay Branch Brook last year.



While some folks in the state government love Jay and are cheering them on with their expansion and economic development, there is a group of folks who do nothing but give them a hard time.  From what I've seen it has been for relatively minor problems with erosion with the golf course and some other issues including "impacts" on Jay Branch Brook.  And for whatever reason it gets into the press and folks make a stink over it.  Seems to be the way everything is done in Vermont...the state will applaud some things and others will do everything in their power to kill any kind of development.


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## kingdom-tele (Feb 5, 2013)

its funny the range the word impact has. damn these brooks and wetlands for getting in the way of my 1 weekend a year at JPR. more outrage for mellow groomer development and avoiding wind holds on a high speed lift system so you can ski with 10K sideslipping patrons and bitch the whole day how much better it used to be while drinking a $9 mixer unable to find 1 half way comfortable seat in the bar that is to small

$5250 was the fine if I remember correctly. I can't imagine that is stopping them from blowing themselves.


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## 56fish (Feb 5, 2013)

BigJay said:


> Yes, they didn't file the papers regarding how much water they pumped in Jan and Feb... so they were fined for a few 1000$... a little slap on the hand.



Read in the Chronicle: JPR has a sub-contractor read the water gauges and submit the info.  JPR stated they'll moniter the sub's work closer.


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