# 70th Anniversary of Hiroshima



## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2015)

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2810653-155/japan-marks-70th-anniversary-of-hiroshima

Just saw that it is today.  Definitely a dark day in history and one that probably evokes some mixed emotions.


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## Puck it (Aug 6, 2015)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-hiroshima-and-still-flourishing-dc/31164857/


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## Tin (Aug 6, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> http://www.sltrib.com/news/2810653-155/japan-marks-70th-anniversary-of-hiroshima
> 
> Just saw that it is today.  Definitely a dark day in history and one that probably evokes some mixed emotions.



As much as I enjoy the long weekend of parties and cookouts I have mixed emotions about it as we still celebrate VJ Day in RI. I remind myself if the bombs were not dropped hundreds of thousands of American troops would have been killed and wounded trying to take the main islands and how many more years war would have continued.


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## Puck it (Aug 6, 2015)

Tin said:


> As much as I enjoy the long weekend of parties and cookouts I have mixed emotions about it as we still celebrate VJ Day in RI. I remind myself if the bombs were not dropped hundreds of thousands of American troops would have been killed and wounded trying to take the main islands and how many more years war would have continued.


The very issue that Truman wrestled with.  Just look at what it took to take Iwo Jima!


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## freeski (Aug 6, 2015)

We should have hit Tokyo. They were evil animals. Maybe 3 bombs could have taken out the ring leaders.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2015)

Are you serious?  Two were enough to end the war.  Why kill tens of thousands more people?


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## freeski (Aug 6, 2015)

Dead serious, why not take out the leaders. They started it, Pearl Harbor. What would life had been like in the U.S. if they and Germany had won? Think about that. Seriously, we would have all been slaves if they had there way. Both Japan and Germany thought they were of a superior race. The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were worker bees. 
I agree with what we did after the war to get Japan back on it's industrial footing. Sending over the ISO 9000 guy (can't remember his name).

Yea, we should have leveled Tokyo.


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## Puck it (Aug 6, 2015)

freeski said:


> Dead serious, why not take out the leaders. They started it, Pearl Harbor. What would life had been like in the U.S. if they and Germany had won? Think about that. Seriously, we would have all been slaves if they had there way. Both Japan and Germany thought they were of a superior race. The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were worker bees.
> I agree with what we did after the war to get Japan back on it's industrial footing. Sending over the ISO 9000 guy (can't remember his name).
> 
> Yea, we should have leveled Tokyo.


Deming?


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## Scruffy (Aug 6, 2015)

Tin said:


> As much as I enjoy the long weekend of parties and cookouts I have mixed emotions about it as we still celebrate VJ Day in RI. *I remind myself if the bombs were not dropped hundreds of thousands of American troops would have been killed and wounded trying to take the main islands and how many more years war would have continued.*




Not to mention the thousands of Allied POWs in Japan that were all about to be executed.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2015)

Freeski, the war was over after the first two bombs.  Hell it was likely over after the first.  In fact 6 out of the 7 WW2 five star generals are on record as saying the bombs were morally reprehensible and unnecessary.

The goal of war is to end conflict as quickly as possible with the fewest number of casualties.  To actively wish for another bomb dropped on Tokyo makes you equally as savage as the Pearl Harbor attackers if not worse because there would have been far more deaths to innocent bystanders.  What an awful mindset to have.


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## freeski (Aug 6, 2015)

Bombing Tokyo *instead* of the other two, not after. I have a degree in Political Science from UNH and had a professor who was from the State Dept. during the cold war. That's were I got a lot of my mindset. It's easy for you to be dovish having not lived through this period. England could have easily fallen and the U.S. would have been next. I don't think you realize what that would have meant.


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## Tin (Aug 6, 2015)

freeski said:


> Bombing Tokyo *instead* of the other two, not after. I have a degree in Political Science from UNH and had a professor who was from the State Dept. during the cold war. That's were I got a lot of my mindset. It's easy for you to be dovish having not lived through this period. England could have easily fallen and the U.S. would have been next. I don't think you realize what that would have meant.



Bombing Tokyo means no second plan. You leveled their biggest, now go after smaller ones? From a cultural standpoint taking out leaders would have led to an infuriated, "dug-in", and out for revenge Japanese people versus a population crippled with fear. Tokyo first means no surrender, having to level every city, then still dealing with resistance.


The British handled things in the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa sealed the fate of the Third Reich. The Japanese had not encountered anything close to U.S. military strength during their imperialistic spread. Once they did, yes the U.S. casualties were high and Guadal was close, but the Japanese victories were tactical or mere bombing raids.


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## Domeskier (Aug 6, 2015)

Tin said:


> Bombing Tokyo means no second plan. You leveled their biggest, now go after smaller ones? From a cultural standpoint taking out leaders would have led to an infuriated, "dug-in", and out for revenge Japanese people versus a population crippled with fear. Tokyo first means no surrender, having to level every city, then still dealing with resistance.



Not to mention that Tokyo had already been decimated by months of firebombing.  Over 100,000 civilians were killed in a single night in March of 1945 alone.  This, together with the defeat of the Nazis and the entry of the USSR into the war with Japan, probably rendered the first bomb (and almost certainly the second) completely unnecessary (assuming the use of nuclear weapons (or carpet bombing for that matter) against civilian targets could ever be considered "necessary" or even justifiable).


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2015)

freeski said:


> We should have hit Tokyo. They were evil animals. Maybe 3 bombs could have taken out the ring leaders.



How does the above translate to "instead"?  You clearly called for three bombs.

My aunt was a Russian translator for the CIA during the Cuban Missile Crisis.   Her clearance level was so high she wasn't allowed to divulge to family where she even worked until 25 years after she left the job.  I can assure you her opinion doesn't align with your professor's.


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## jimk (Aug 6, 2015)

No looking back, at least on this particular issue.  The best military and political minds in America decided we had to do what we had to do.  Not only did the war end soon after, but the world saw the horrific power of nuclear weapons, the cold war stayed fairly cold, MAD worked, and to this day we haven’t seen another nuke used in attack mode.  

BTW, I’m for the Iran Nuke Deal, one of the few things I align with Obama on.

PS:  I studied under this guy in college, Dr. Gordon Prange:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_W._Prange
He had seen Hitler speak as a grad student in Nazi Germany and served as MacArthur’s chief historian in occupied Japan.  He was so good I took four military history classes from him and became a History Minor.  He would actually reenact excerpts from Hitler’s speeches in class, fluid German, goose-stepping included!?!


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## freeski (Aug 6, 2015)

If Germany, Japan or both had nukes and the ability to deliver them to the U.S. mainland how would they have proceeded?


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## freeski (Aug 6, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> How does the above translate to "instead"?  You clearly called for three bombs.
> 
> My aunt was a Russian translator for the CIA during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Her clearance level was so high she wasn't allowed to divulge to family where she even worked until 25 years after she left the job.  I can assure you her opinion doesn't align with your professor's.



You'd need more than one for Tokyo. I think three would have done the trick (all on Tokyo). The argument that there would have been no one with authority to surrender may have some validity.


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## Tin (Aug 6, 2015)

freeski said:


> If Germany, Japan or both had nukes and the ability to deliver them to the U.S. mainland how would they have proceeded?




But they didn't and we knew they didn't! Both, specifically Germany, put their efforts into aircraft, rockets, jets, etc. They were not even attempting to really build one. Japan did not start thinking about the bomb and gathering uranium until spring of 1945.

Bombing Tokyo would have been the greatest one day mass casualty in human history. It had a population density double and almost quadruple that of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In the initial blast it is easy to say 200k dead, who knows about after effects. Initially Hiroshima was estimated to be at 70-80k dead. That total doubled. 

Putting hypotheticals into history is fun, but all logic gets thrown out the window...as seen here. What if Napoleon's army didn't get yellow fever? Would we all be speaking French?


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## freeski (Aug 6, 2015)

200K is low. In looking for deaths in WWII I came across the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

All things considered the U.S. and our allies were very generous in the way we ended the war. Also, China was devastated by Japan and you never hear about it. The Nazis had nothing on Japan on the evil scale during this time period. I don't have anything against the Japanese or the Germans, but I do hold a grudge against the generation that fought against the U.S.

edit: I won't post anymore on this topic. Too nice a day for this darkness. Gonna hop on my mountain bike and go to the woods. 

Kind Regards
Freeski


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## steamboat1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Fun facts.

Russian WWII Vets get free medical from American VA hospitals as do all other forces aligned with us during WWII.


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## Tin (Aug 7, 2015)

freeski said:


> I don't have anything against the Japanese or the Germans, but I do hold a grudge against the generation that fought against the U.S.



Groupthink and obedience are real, active, and powerful parts of social psychology. I would suggest reading Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. It discusses how those men in Nazi Germany were not fit for combat followed the blitz, rounded up those targeted, and did the killing. A tough read but it shows how obedient we are to authority even when we know something is wrong.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2015)

Or our own My Lai Massacre.......


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## Tin (Aug 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Or our own My Lai Massacre.......




How dare you say the U.S. military did something wrong?!

The USS Wahoo story is like the opening of "Tomorrow Never Dies" on a massive scale.


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## ctenidae (Aug 7, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Fun facts.
> 
> Russian WWII Vets get free medical from American VA hospitals as do all other forces aligned with us during WWII.



As well they should (hope it's reciprocal). Now, if only we could get good care for our own vets at home.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 7, 2015)

ctenidae said:


> As well they should (hope it's reciprocal). Now, if only we could get good care for our own vets at home.


My uncle who passed away several years ago (WWII Vet) received very good treatment from the VA I think. They even put him up in a nice nursing home near the ocean his final 2 years at no cost to our family.


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## Tin (Aug 7, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> My uncle who passed away several years ago (WWII Vet) received very good treatment from the VA I think. They even put him up in a nice nursing home near the ocean his final 2 years at no cost to our family.



I have two grandfathers who were in Korea and receive amazing care (Knee/hip replacements, physical therapy, etc.) The VA appears to do very well on that end. 

However, in my work at a mental health hospital and neurology clinic I see vets with TBIs, PTSD, substance use (mostly over prescribed benzos and opioids from the VA), and a new trend of epilepsy amongst Iraqi vets (in the 30-50 year old range) who come to get second/third opinions or treatment because of how awful the VA is. I would say 2-3 a week minimum.


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## skiNEwhere (Aug 8, 2015)

I could write an entire book about the VA, based on both my first hand experiences and those of other vets I served with. But I'll bite my tongue and say they do well in some aspects, and are horrendously failing in others.


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## dlague (Aug 9, 2015)

VA in White River Junction was really solid with my father in law  then again there were several doctors from Dartmouth who worked there too.  Good to have a teaching hospital near by I guess.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2015)

That's one of the better VA hospitals in New England.  Some of the others I can't give much praise to. I've literally been inside 280 of the 300 hospitals in New England.  The quality of service, available technology and general upkeep is far and away better at civilian hospitals.  It should be the opposite IMO.


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## Funky_Catskills (Aug 10, 2015)

Sad day - i visited there a couple years ago with my good friend who lives there.  She lived with us a an exchange student..
Her father is a Japanese vet from WWII - I knew him - he recently died.   My trip to Japan was to honor him because Kazumi came to the US to honor my fathers after he died..  
We were lucky to get a tour of Hiroshima from a woman who helps authors and movie makers with the history.   Her family was touched by the blast.   Her Grandmother and Grandfather died - the parents were outside of town sheltering.  They KNEW something was going to happen..  It is said we left it alone so when we bombed it - we could better understand the effects with clean terrain.

It's an amazing place...  And amazing to see the town fixed up like nothing happened..


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## Tin (Aug 10, 2015)

Funky_Catskills said:


> It's an amazing place...  And amazing to see the town fixed up like nothing happened..




Amazing how both Germany and Japan have come from rubble to become economic and technological powerhouses of the world seventy years later.


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