# Death at Cannon



## freeski (Mar 27, 2016)

Always sad to hear. I guess a young guy from Mass went into the woods from Upper Ravine. His car was left in the parking lot (I always think this is how they'll know I'm in trouble). I bet they monitor if a car is left after a certain amount of time. Multiple agencies searched for him last night. Not sure when he was found. He was not wearing a helmet. I think that's at least 6 at Cannon in the last 10 years. Pretty sure that's the most in that time period in the Northeast.


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## manhattanskier (Mar 27, 2016)

Why I bug my friends to ski in the woods with me, so sad :-(


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## bootladder (Mar 27, 2016)

Not sure where the tragic incident occurred on Ravine, but I can attest that  Mickey's Corner needs fencing on the downhill side.  

I went down there and if none of my friends were there and I couldn't climb out on my own, I could have had the same fate.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 28, 2016)

It was on Mickey's corner.As far as a car being left in the parking lot,we had the mug club party in the bar Saturday night so there were cars there very late.The police came in looking for him.A few people skinned up early Sunday morning and finally found him off Upper Ravine.I went right to the top Sunday and they had it closed with a patrol guarding the entrance.He was still there while F&G investigated.A patrol friend was one of the ones to take him down.Mickeys corner was especially bad Saturday as was the whole mt early.


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## fcksummer (Mar 28, 2016)

Very sad to hear. 

Ravine was pretty scary Saturday morning. Most of the turns were 99% ice with a tiny strand of snow along the outside edge of the trail. It was like walking a tightrope getting down that trail.

They're really sugarcoating what happened in the AP report. Makes it sound like he voluntarily decided to leave the trail.
"New Hampshire officials say a skier who left a trail and went into a wooded area at Cannon Mountain was found dead Sunday morning."


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## freeski (Mar 28, 2016)

When I hear "went off trail" I think: he fell and slid out of control into the woods. I hope he passed instantaneously. Being hurt and alone on the top of Cannon with the freezing wind would not be pleasant especially at night. Sorry for the gory thought, but that could happen. I spent the night just blow tree line on Mt Washington once in the Fall and it is a kind of lonely that is terrifying when cold. I hope he went peacefully. Thoughts to his friends and family.


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## Los (Mar 28, 2016)

fcksummer said:


> Very sad to hear.
> 
> Ravine was pretty scary Saturday morning. Most of the turns were 99% ice with a tiny strand of snow along the outside edge of the trail. It was like walking a tightrope getting down that trail.
> 
> ...



wait - this guy slid off the trial INTO the woods? I read the original post last night and took it to mean that he voluntarily went tree skiing. I didn't question it because I think there's still a thin layer on the upper mountain (right?). But no, he SLID off upper ravine into the woods. Holy s--t. I can't believe there is nothing about this on Cannon's website. This is horrible. We didn't ski it until about 10 or so on saturday, but still...  That's really scary. Can't believe more isn't being made out of this.


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## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2016)

The details haven't been released yet, so it's probably not worth speculating on what happened this particular case. But it is fair to say that that corner is disproportionately dangerous.  People die and get hurt skiing.  It happens at all mountains and can happen on any type of trail. It's an unfortunate risk of the sport.  But is there is another specific trail location in all of New England's in-bounds ski terrain that has resulted in so many deaths and serious injuries?  I personally know several people who have been seriously injured there, many others who have been lucky to escape injury from a fall there, and am aware of several deaths there.  In fact, that corner is named for a Ski Patroller who broke both legs and his back there. 

In at least a few of the incidents that have resulted in death at that spot the conditions played a significant (or primary) role. I definitely believe in personal responsibility and accepting risks, but it seems like more could be done to decrease the danger at that spot.  Yes? No?  Thoughts?


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 28, 2016)

You never hear of a ski area putting a skier death on its website.


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## freeski (Mar 28, 2016)

When I'm skiing I always think "if I fall where is my momentum going to take me". You see people all the time not in full control going fast and if they catch an edge they're in the woods. Another thought, the mountains are fun with lots of people and it feels like the mall. But, when night comes and no ones there they are very dangerous places. When you're up on the mountain at the end of the day you need to be aware of the potential danger. When ski patrol sweeps the trails at the end of the day they can miss you.


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## Los (Mar 28, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> You never hear of a ski area putting a skier death on its website.



I guess not... But it still seems weird that they wouldn't acknowledge it or pay tribute somehow... I could have sworn that Wildcat did something along those lines last year when someone died at their charity ski-a-thon event (or whatever it is/was)...


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## Los (Mar 28, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> The details haven't been released yet, so it's probably not worth speculating on what happened this particular case. But it is fair to say that that corner is disproportionately dangerous.  People die and get hurt skiing.  It happens at all mountains and can happen on any type of trail. It's an unfortunate risk of the sport.  But is there is another specific trail location in all of New England's in-bounds ski terrain that has resulted in so many deaths and serious injuries?  I personally know several people who have been seriously injured there, many others who have been lucky to escape injury from a fall there, and am aware of several deaths there.  In fact, that corner is named for a Ski Patroller who broke both legs and his back there.
> 
> In at least a few of the incidents that have resulted in death at that spot the conditions played a significant (or primary) role. I definitely believe in personal responsibility and accepting risks, but it seems like more could be done to decrease the danger at that spot.  Yes? No?  Thoughts?



Sorry, is it possible to describe where on Upper Ravine "mickey's corner" is? I definitely want to be more aware of it....


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> In at least a few of the incidents that have resulted in death at that spot the conditions played a significant (or primary) role. I definitely believe in personal responsibility and accepting risks, but it seems like more could be done to decrease the danger at that spot.  Yes? No?  Thoughts?



First hand reports from Azers said that trail was total blue ice on Saturday morning. Either close the trail when conditions are particularly bad or if you're going to open it up for those who enjoy that type of snow and want to do their best Bode Miller impersonation, station a ski patrol member at that spot.  If not that, at the very least make sure they're skiing the trail once an hour and looking off the edge of the trail to make sure someone has not crashed.  

Cannon has a well deserved reputation for being an extremely icy mountain.  Not everyone has the skills to deal with such surfaces.  This can obviously result in some devastating accidents.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 28, 2016)

For 40 plus years I've skied that corner as fast as I can.Yes,it can get hairy and yes there has been more that a few incidents there.And yes CB,it was named for a good friend and longtime head of patrol Mickey Libby.That corner used to be much more narrow than today and is much safer than it was.Like many 90 degree corners though,it can bite you if your not on your game.I think the turn at the bottom of Skylite is much more dangerous because it comes in much steeper.That has had a few deaths as well.Mickeys corner at right and Skylite at the left.


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## JDMRoma (Mar 28, 2016)

I believe it's right above the s in hard scrabble 


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## Los (Mar 28, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> For 40 plus years I've skied that corner as fast as I can.Yes,it can get hairy and yes there has been more that a few incidents there.And yes CB,it was named for a good friend and longtime head of patrol Mickey Libby.That corner used to be much more narrow than today and is much safer than it was.Like many 90 degree corners though,it can bite you if your not on your game.I think the turn at the bottom of Skylite is much more dangerous because it comes in much steeper.That has had a few deaths as well.Mickeys corner at right and Skylite at the left.



Thanks, much appreciated... Thanks too JDMRoma...


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## Puck it (Mar 28, 2016)

Why not put some racing catch fences up there?  Other mountains have.  Skylight used to some fencing but has not had it for a few years.


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## yeggous (Mar 28, 2016)

Yeah, that is a nasty corner. I can see how this could happen.


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## fcksummer (Mar 28, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> The details haven't been released yet, so it's probably not worth speculating on what happened this particular case. But it is fair to say that that corner is disproportionately dangerous.  People die and get hurt skiing.  It happens at all mountains and can happen on any type of trail. It's an unfortunate risk of the sport.  But is there is another specific trail location in all of New England's in-bounds ski terrain that has resulted in so many deaths and serious injuries?  I personally know several people who have been seriously injured there, many others who have been lucky to escape injury from a fall there, and am aware of several deaths there.  In fact, that corner is named for a Ski Patroller who broke both legs and his back there.
> 
> In at least a few of the incidents that have resulted in death at that spot the conditions played a significant (or primary) role. I definitely believe in personal responsibility and accepting risks, but it seems like more could be done to decrease the danger at that spot.  Yes? No?  Thoughts?



Not an official report but this is what his dad had to say.

"Trevor Hennessey was skiing by himself Saturday, making the last run of the day at the ski area in Franconia, New Hampshire, when he took a corner into a patch of ice and went off the trail, hitting his head on a tree, said his father, Christopher Hennessey of Medfield."

http://www.telegram.com/article/20160327/NEWS/160329284


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## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> For 40 plus years I've skied that corner as fast as I can.Yes,it can get hairy and yes there has been more that a few incidents there.And yes CB,it was named for a good friend and longtime head of patrol Mickey Libby.That corner used to be much more narrow than today and is much safer than it was.Like many 90 degree corners though,it can bite you if your not on your game.I think the turn at the bottom of Skylite is much more dangerous because it comes in much steeper.That has had a few deaths as well.Mickeys corner at right and Skylite at the left.



I was sort of lumping those 2 together as one "spot".  But you are right, if you differentiate between the two the bottom of Skylight is even worse.  I also agree that it used to be much worse.

As you point out, people (like you) who know it extremely well can get away with skiing it fast.  And even when knowing it well it can be hairy.  I worry about the people who don't know what to expect there and have no reason to expect greatly increased risk. I'd like to see the mountain put a little more effort into prevention there.  Maybe some of the things DHS suggested.


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## Los (Mar 28, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> I was sort of lumping those 2 together as one "spot".  But you are right, if you differentiate between the two the bottom of Skylight is even worse.  I also agree that it used to be much worse.
> 
> As you point out, people (like you) who know it extremely well can get away with skiing it fast.  And even when knowing it well it can be hairy.  I worry about the people who don't know what to expect there and have no reason to expect greatly increased risk. I'd like to see the mountain put a little more effort into prevention there.  Maybe some of the things DHS suggested.



If there have been that many incidents, its seems unbelievable that they haven't done anything to identify it as a hazard area. 

I've never thought of it as being dangerous, but that's probably because I'm not a fast skier. I'm going to be even slower from now on... Good advice by the way on trying to think ahead and be aware of where you're going to fall in case you catch an edge...


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2016)

Side View of problem area:






Netting at the bottom of both of those trails probably wouldn't be a terrible idea. That is a lot of steep slope feeding straight into the trees if you can't complete the turn.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 28, 2016)

Actually,Ravine is very mellow going into that corner.Your GE pic doesnt really show it but Skylite is a lot steeper heading into the traverse.


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Netting at the bottom of both of those trails probably wouldn't be a terrible idea. That is a lot of steep slope feeding straight into the trees if you can't complete the turn.



Never skied there but based on the trailmap that corner is part of a blue? Netting there does sound like potentially a good idea in that case. Always terrible to hear of sad news like this.


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## catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

Anyone skiing those trails may want to know how to self arrest after taking a fall.  Note I have never skied that trail.  

The important part is be prepared by putting the ski pole straps on your wrists when skiing in terrain where self arrest may be needed to avoid injury or death.  The next part is know how to execute a self arrest.  

Here is one of the better descriptions on how to self arrest documented by retired Jackson Hole guide Bob Peters
http://www.epicski.com/a/self-arrest-techniques


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 28, 2016)

Even this doesnt show it good.Ravine in that last section is only an intermediate trail whereas Skylite is definately an expert run.You can see how much they widened that corner.The inside part where the green shows is where about where the old trail used to stop.The problem is that has a fall away falline to skiers left.


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## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2016)

catskills said:


> Anyone skiing those trails should know how to self arrest after taking a fall. The important part is be prepared by putting the ski pole straps on your wrists when skiing in terrain where self arrest may be needed to avoid injury or death.  The next part is know how to execute a self arrest.
> 
> Here is one of the better descriptions on how to self arrest documented by retired Jackson Hole guide Bob Peters
> http://www.epicski.com/a/self-arrest-techniques
> ...



Your comment and that link are completely irrelevant to the trails and conditions in question.  If you are in crash situation at these locations you would have less than 1sec to react.  These are not big line, self arrest situations.


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## NHSkier13 (Mar 28, 2016)

I heard about this. Cannon never seemed like a dangerous place to me, that said, I don't do lots of glades (depends on the steepness and room to turn), but I've heard of plenty of deaths from there. Also, I really like that upper ravine trail. I've done it several times, and haven't had much trouble on it unless it was an icy day... however I almost killed myself this season at loon just by taking a sharp right on flying fox a bit too fast, so I know how those situations can play out - trail might seem easy but this kind of stuff can happen pretty much anywhere. 

iirc he suffered from head trauma? 

Honestly, I wonder what his family may be thinking of now. Respects.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2016)

catskills said:


> Anyone skiing those trails should know how to self arrest after taking a fall. The important part is be prepared by putting the ski pole straps on your wrists when skiing in terrain where self arrest may be needed to avoid injury or death.  The next part is know how to execute a self arrest.
> 
> Here is one of the better descriptions on how to self arrest documented by retired Jackson Hole guide Bob Peters
> http://www.epicski.com/a/self-arrest-techniques
> ...



I consider myself pretty good at "falling."   It's not always possible to self arrest.  Especially if you catch an edge and fulcrum down hard head first.  What the guy in your link is demonstrating is how to use your poll to slow yourself down while in a fairly benign slide down a steep slope.  It's a worthwhile skill to know, but only applicable in that one kind of fall.

We don't know what happened with the deceased.  Sounds like he went head first into the woods.  

Netting in that location might have been the only thing that could have saved him.  That and/or fast response from patrol.


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## bootladder (Mar 28, 2016)

I can attest that self arrest was not possible for my crash.  

My fall went like this: 

While trying to catch up with my group who took off after I took a picture of them I was going at a good clip, took the turn tight on the right (the steepest part of that particular turn).

Quite icy on the inside right and heavy snow back towards the middle of the trail. As I made the turn I thought "Gee, I hope I don't get hung up on the transition between the ice and the snow". I did. It tripped me up.

I fell in a safe spot in the middle of the trail and thought I would be OK. However my momentum carried me up the bank on the left side of the bottom of the turn and over the top of the bank where it drops steeply down into the woods.

I saw the trees coming at me and thought "No, not like this. Not like Sony Bono and that Kennedy guy". Just before impact I think I turned my head and sacrificed my shoulder. I was wearing  helmet, but I don't think that would have kept my egg from cracking. I was "lucky"

This all happened in only a few seconds. The last second or so before impact looped in my head that night for hours.

I fully understand the dangers of skiing, but think a safety net may be worthy of that particular turn.


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## Cannonball (Mar 28, 2016)

^ Impossible to self-arrest in that situation.

My wife had a similar one at this same location (or actually the bottom of Skylight).  On a snowboard she made the hard, fast turn coming of Skylight onto the traverse. Ice at the bottom of the turn had her skidding slightly towards the outside of the turn.  Meanwhile, a skier coming off Ravine blasted past her at high speed. There was no fault there, but she was surprised enough that it made her react slightly and catch her back edge.  She launched into the woods off the trail.  Because the woods drop away from the edge of the trail, she hit the trees about 3-5 feet off the ground.  Fortunately she a) hit only small trees, and b) managed to twist herself around in the air enough to avoid going head first.  She broke her thumb and went pretty far into the woods off the trail, and down out of sight.  She was at the back of our pack and nobody saw it happen.  We waited for her for ~15 min wondering if she had accidentally gone another way. She eventually extracted herself and caught up with us.  If she hadn't we might have spent hours looking for her even though we were essentially all skiing together. She very well could have been the next news story. It's a fine line.

Some netting might save people.  At a minimum it would make it obvious if someone had crashed through it.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2016)

Wow. So two people in our rather small AZ community have had bad crashes that could very easily have resulted in deaths at this very specific area on Cannon. It makes me wonder how many other people have gone off here and escaped mostly unscathed? Many of these crashes probably don't get reported to Patrol.
It really does seem like a layer of race netting could very easily be set up on that stretch.


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## skiberg (Mar 28, 2016)

Hindsight is always 20/20. Skiing is an inherently dangerous activity.  You can fall anywhere and die, like Turnpike or Zoomer in the past. 

There are nasty corners on every mountain. Skiers need to exercise care. We all ski, at times, in a manner in which we probably could be badly hurt. The responsibility mostly is on us individually to be safe.

This is why its nearly impossible to sue a ski are in the US.

You can hook an edge and dive into the woods on a relatively benign portion of any trail. The mountain cant be expected to net the whole hill. 

The corner is not that bad. Its plenty wide. It was probably the conditions and ice that caused the fall. He probably dipped his shoulder, lost the downhill edge and slid into the woods. 

Truly tragic, but I just don't think the mountain bears much responsibility. 

With that being said Cannon does have a tendency to open trails under very precarious and border line conditions. However, this fall was at the very end of the day, not in the AM. It had softened up quite a bit.

Very sad and sobering. We need to excercise care and think about this when we are out there. 

I cant tell you how many times I have absolutely barrelled down Ravine, railing the corners and bombing past people.

I have had friends do the exact same thing, as this poor kid on three occasions on Ravine and Cannon trails. Luckily all were basically ok.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

Agree with Freeski - you need to think proactively about falling on expert terrain.


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## Highway Star (Mar 28, 2016)

And people even begin to question why I ski virtually non-releasable bindings and keep race quality tunes on several pairs of skis. RIP.


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## yeggous (Mar 28, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> And people even begin to question why I ski virtually non-releasable bindings and keep race quality tunes on several pairs of skis. RIP.



Because you are awesome?


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> And people even begin to question why I ski virtually non-releasable bindings and keep race quality tunes on several pairs of skis. RIP.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> And people even begin to question why I ski virtually non-releasable bindings and keep race quality tunes on several pairs of skis. RIP.



Smart man...
Thats actually a good thing about a snowboard in that situation.  May not have the edge but it won't come off...
so it gives you a fighting chance..  Get the deck downhill to take whatever is comng...


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 28, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Agree with Freeski - you need to think proactively about falling on expert terrain.



Ravine is intermediate.


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## Bumpsis (Mar 28, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Because you are awesome?




:grin::grin::grin:


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## dlague (Mar 28, 2016)

Puck it said:


> Why not put some racing catch fences up there?  Other mountains have.  Skylight used to some fencing but has not had it for a few years.



Killington's Great Northern has a turn right after the Snowdon Quad where a skier died going off the trail last year or the year before that and now they have a net there.  And they also upgraded the trail to a blue trail.  I have seen nets used at a couple other ski areas just cannot recall where right now.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Ravine is intermediate.



OK... Sketchy inbound terrain then...


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## dlague (Mar 28, 2016)

Last time at Cannon a couple weeks ago, Upper Ravine was pretty icy and we ended up doing one run on it.  That particular corner had snow all pushed up into the corner which is what I had use to stop to signal to my wife to slow down.  My first time at Cannon was in April about 5 years ago and the ice was clear as glass on some runs and the width of the entire trail on Big Link and on Missing Link.  Freaked my wife out - she learned how to ski across ice that day and not carve on it.  It was their last weekend and they should have been closed.


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## dlague (Mar 28, 2016)

Last time at Cannon a couple weeks ago, Upper Ravine was pretty icy and we ended up doing one run on it.  That particular corner had snow all pushed up into the corner which is what I had use to stop to signal to my wife to slow down.  My first time at Cannon was in April about 5 years ago and the ice was clear as glass on some runs and the width of the entire trail on Big Link and on Missing Link.  Freaked my wife out - she learned how to ski across ice that day and not carve on it.  It was their last weekend and they should have been closed.


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## Griswold (Mar 28, 2016)

I am surprised the final turn on upper jester at sugarbush doesn't have a net or fence.  I feel like you can easily hit some ice or catch and edge and launch yourself into the Valley


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## catskills (Mar 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Netting in that location might have been the only thing that could have saved him.  That and/or fast response from patrol.



Video showing double netting on Belleayre's Onondaga intermediate trail

https://youtu.be/orNkZqejQzc?t=31


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2016)

That would be a good solution.  Good on Bell.  Has that fence been up long? Was it a reaction to prior accidents?


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2016)

With such a strong racing history at Cannon, one would think that the installation of some permanent A-netting in that area, given its apparent propensity for serious accidents involving skiers going off the maintained trail surface and into the woods would be an obvious answer to reduce risk without having to do some additional serious tree cutting and/or regrading of that area


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## cdskier (Mar 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> That would be a good solution.  Good on Bell.  Has that fence been up long? Was it a reaction to prior accidents?



That video was uploaded back in 2011 which is when I still skied at Belleayre on a pretty regular basis. Oddly enough I don't even remember it being there!


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## rocks860 (Mar 28, 2016)

Griswold said:


> I am surprised the final turn on upper jester at sugarbush doesn't have a net or fence.  I feel like you can easily hit some ice or catch and edge and launch yourself into the Valley
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yeah I was thinkin that when I was there on Saturday although I can't remember a time when that was super icy and sketchy in the many years I've been there. People tend to take those turns super tight and it builds up almost a banked turn but there's still 10-15 feet of flat after it


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## yeggous (Mar 28, 2016)

I didn't know what super icy was until I did the Wildcat Vertical Challenge. Was the ice both transparent blue and three-dimensional? It literally adds a whole new dimension to ice.


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## Highway Star (Mar 29, 2016)

dlague said:


> Killington's Great Northern has a turn right after the Snowdon Quad where a skier died going off the trail last year or the year before that and now they have a net there.



None of this is true at all.


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## wtcobb (Mar 29, 2016)

skiberg said:


> Hindsight is always 20/20.



Hindsight may be 20/20, but failure to assess and correct for future mistakes is 0/0.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 29, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Hindsight may be 20/20, but failure to assess and correct for future mistakes is 0/0.


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## dlague (Mar 29, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> None of this is true at all.



You are an idiot!

December 2013 - Ski patrol found Strohl around 5 p.m. Thursday, off the Great Northern Trail.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 29, 2016)

dlague said:


> You are an idiot!
> 
> December 2013 - Ski patrol found Strohl around 5 p.m. Thursday, off the Great Northern Trail.



2013 isn't the year before..

Just sayin...


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## skiberg (Mar 29, 2016)

The problem with permanent A netting is that most of the netting on the hill is installed by FSC. They don't use Ravine to train, so its left up to the mountain and they have no real racing pedigree. 

Interesting though is that FSC identified several areas that were dangerous on the new Baron's and they are installing "A" netting at their own expense this summer. So it can be done.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 29, 2016)

Mount Snow also has some netting on their Long John trail where there's a tight swooping left-hand turn.  I put that netting to good use a couple of Sundays ago and it kept me up near the trail so I could get my footing and climb back up.  I had my board down in-front of me so I don't think I would have gotten hurt too badly, but it would have been a huge pain to climb back up to the trail or find my way out of the woods there.  I was just dumb and didn't dig my heel in enough to make the turn and slid too far wide... it was also my last run of the day.

Also, Long John isn't used for any kind of training or any kind of racing, so the mountain must maintain the netting on that corner.

Seems like there is pretty much no reason for Cannon to not put up some netting there on that corner, especially if there has been more than one fatal accident in that same spot.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 29, 2016)

skiberg said:


> The problem with permanent A netting is that most of the netting on the hill is installed by FSC. They don't use Ravine to train, so its left up to the mountain and they have no real racing pedigree.
> 
> Interesting though is that FSC identified several areas that were dangerous on the new Baron's and they are installing "A" netting at their own expense this summer. So it can be done.



Why would / should FSC have anything to do with skier safety measures on non-venue trails?  Netting is used at other mountains and I'm sure it's not all maintained by racing organizations.   This should be a ski patrol / mountain ops duty and one that is maintained daily.


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## Not Sure (Mar 29, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Wow. So two people in our rather small AZ community have had bad crashes that could very easily have resulted in deaths at this very specific area on Cannon. It makes me wonder how many other people have gone off here and escaped mostly unscathed? Many of these crashes probably don't get reported to Patrol.
> It really does seem like a layer of race netting could very easily be set up on that stretch.



I worked at "Little Gap" now Blue Mountain in the 80's back then they had a trail map with push pins to identify the areas where accidents occurred . Pretty simple way to identify trouble spots . Doesn't seem like that would be needed for that spot as it's freaking obvious.


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## Puck it (Mar 29, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Why would / should FSC have anything to do with skier safety measures on non-venue trails?  Netting is used at other mountains and I'm sure it's not all maintained by racing organizations.   This should be a ski patrol / mountain ops duty and one that is maintained daily.


I agree. This is a safety issue and has nothing to do with racing.  They used to have netting on the bottom of Skylight and now is gone.


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## 57stevey (Mar 29, 2016)

There is some sort of fencing at the bottom of TBD trail, so I should think it can be accomplished elsewhere on the premises...


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## Brad J (Mar 29, 2016)

drjeff said:


> With such a strong racing history at Cannon, one would think that the installation of some permanent A-netting in that area, given its apparent propensity for serious accidents involving skiers going off the maintained trail surface and into the woods would be an obvious answer to reduce risk without having to do some additional serious tree cutting and/or regrading of that area



Please no more tree cutting!!!!!! The top IMO has been cut to much as it is!!!!!!!


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## steamboat1 (Mar 29, 2016)

Killington has nettng in numerous spots around the mountain, has for years, some of it permanent others maintained daily.


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## Tin (Mar 30, 2016)

Fencing is needed in those areas of Cannon, without question. 

There is a bigger trend I've noticed this year (and I think Savemeasammy will agree given our chairlift discussions) and it is ski areas boosting trail counts by opening dangerous terrain to reduce traffic given the lack of open terrain. I'm not talking thin cover, I'm talking blue ice/bobsled tracks that there is little/no way of controlling speed on. I'm all for the "skier's code" and not skiing above ones' ability, but when some skiers/boarders on this forum (some of which are as damn close to expert skiers as you will find on here) mention that an intermediate trail such as Ravine was "un-edgeable" should not be open, that should make people think for a second.  How can a ski area advertise that trail as open to unsuspecting intermediate level skiers and not be negligent in doing so?

And I'm not talking about "boilerplate" or "hard pack", I'm talking about this type of "glare ice" bull shit (yanked from VT-freeheel @ TGR). This is an "advanced" trail at Sugarbush but I think we have all seen similar conditions on lower ability trails this year. Imagine coming down and going to make a turn with the flow of the trail.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 30, 2016)

57stevey said:


> There is some sort of fencing at the bottom of TBD trail, so I should think it can be accomplished elsewhere on the premises...



Interesting that the fencing was put up only a few weeks ago after a skier went into the woods at that spot.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

I hate fences...  Personally...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Even in dangerous spots where a life could be saved?


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Even in dangerous spots where a life could be saved?



Maybe...    I just hate seeing fences all over the place..  

Like on mountain memorials..    Enough of that too...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't think anyone wants all 20+ miles of trails at Cannon lined with fencing.  A couple hundred feet here and there in dangerous spots with repeated tragic accidents isn't going to kill the aesthetics of the place.  As mentioned by someone else prior in this thread, one alternative would be cutting trees and regrading.  To me that approach destroys character and aesthetics much more.  We've all seen way too much of that on old school classic trails around the Northeast.


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think anyone wants all 20+ miles of trails at Cannon lined with fencing.  A couple hundred feet here and there in dangerous spots with repeated tragic accidents isn't going to kill the aesthetics of the place.



Right. I'd rather see an occasional fence instead of people being seriously hurt in dangerous spots. If a ski area needed too much fencing, then to me that indicates a deeper problem...


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## HD333 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I hate fences...  Personally...



Because a fence that may save a life would ruin your day, WTF?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Regrading isn't the answer to me..
Knowing you limits and anticipating terrain changes is the answer - at least to me.

I'd rather see a warning sign at the top than a fence. 
Fences always remind me of the Poconos...


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

HD333 said:


> Because a fence that may save a life would ruin your day, WTF?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Please don't take my words and change them
I never said it would "Ruin my day"


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

I just don't like seeing fences...  

sorry(not sorry) - just my opinion..


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Regrading isn't the answer to me..
> Knowing you limits and anticipating terrain changes is the answer - at least to me.
> 
> I'd rather see a warning sign at the top than a fence.
> Fences always remind me of the Poconos...



As has been mentioned this spot is on a blue trail.  Several expert level skiers and snowboarders struggled with the conditions on Saturday.

So, if fencing isn't the answer, nor is regrading, then that leaves two options: either ski patrol closes a trail (which could result in over zealous terrain closures anytime a trail gets icy) or we just deal with repeated deaths in the trouble spots.

A warning sign on a blue trail isn't likely to be even read, never mind heeded.


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## HD333 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Please don't take my words and change them
> I never said it would "Ruin my day"



It was a question, trying to understand why you don't like fences.  

I like turtles. 

http://youtu.be/CMNry4PE93Y


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

If you like fencing or not, it should be used in certain spots for safety reasons.  It could have saved a life last weekend.  What's the argument against fencing?  That the mountain doesn't look as natural in a 50/100' spot where some orange/yellow fencing is?  On turns like that, the trail would probably benefit from fencing *AND* a warning sign about a sharp/dangerous turn approaching... perhaps some small yellow reflectors or something with arrows, similar to what highways do for sharp turns.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

HD333 said:


> It was a question, trying to understand why you don't like fences.
> 
> I like turtles.
> 
> ...



right...    And the "ruin my day" comment was a troll...

I just don't like seeing fences...  Reminds me of the Poconos or New Jersey...


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> As has been mentioned this spot is on a blue trail.  Several expert level skiers and snowboarders struggled with the conditions on Saturday.
> 
> So, if fencing isn't the answer, nor is regrading, then that leaves two options: either ski patrol closes a trail (which could result in over zealous terrain closures anytime a trail gets icy) or we just deal with repeated deaths in the trouble spots.
> 
> A warning sign on a blue trail isn't likely to be even read, never mind heeded.



Cool... Everyone be safe.. Read signs..  ignore them...whatever...

I just don't like seeing fences..


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## drjeff (Mar 30, 2016)

The reality is that with the widths, twists, contours of many "classical" New England style trails, they're just not meant to be skied/ridden by the "masses" when old school New England ice is present and the trail is generally flat due to modern grooming.

In the past, sure there was plenty of old school ice, however those trails rarely were as groomed smooth as they often are today.  This allows trails that were designed and cut in an era where the limitations of the equipment (both for the skier and the ski area) kept the overall speeds down to a much lower level, a level where a slide off a trail often ended up with much less injuries to the person who fell than often happens today.

This sure can put a ski area in a dilemma where they either need to alter the classic character of a trail, add some safety enhancements to a trail, or take some actions such as "speed check" fencing in select places (something I absolutely hate because it ruins the flow of a trail and more often than not creates an ugly, slick, bottleneck where the speed check fencing is set up) to try and keep the speeds down to a reasonable level that will safely allow the average ability skier/rider to use that trail


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Cool... Everyone be safe.. Read signs..  ignore them...whatever...
> 
> I just don't like seeing fences..



Given the choice of not seeing a fence or knowing a fence could save someone's life, which would you choose?


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Given the choice of not seeing a fence or knowing a fence could save someone's life, which would you choose?



I agree with this.  I don't think we're advocating big fencing across the trail and speed checks, just a fence along the outer barrier of the trail so you're not going down into the woods in the case of an accident.  It seems like common sense to me.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Given the choice of not seeing a fence or knowing a fence could save someone's life, which would you choose?



Can't answer that without knowing all the specifics...

sorry...


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

I mean - there could be fences everywhere if we put a fence up every place someone went off the trail inadvertently.. 

I'm the guy on the other side questioning it..  It's OK.. I'm not going to tear fences down..


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Can't answer that without knowing all the specifics...
> 
> sorry...





Funky_Catskills said:


> I mean - there could be fences everywhere if we put a fence up every place someone went off the trail inadvertently..
> 
> I'm the guy on the other side questioning it..  It's OK.. I'm not going to tear fences down..



I understand your point, but you're just being obtuse to be obtuse and stick to your opinion that you don't like the look of fences.  This is a known problem corner where there has been at least one death (more than 1?) and many more serious injuries have occurred at this spot.  Again, nobody is advocating speed checks or fences everywhere, we are saying specific corners (like this one) which are very dangerous and have lead to injuries - these places should have netting/fencing.


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## Not Sure (Mar 30, 2016)

Maybe a few rows of Fir trees as a natural fence? Elk seems to use that strategy . Maintain smaller ones up front ...no fences to look at and problem solved.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Maybe a few rows of Fir trees as a natural fence? Elk seems to use that strategy . Maintain smaller ones up front ...no fences to look at and problem solved.



Now that's cool...


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Maybe a few rows of Fir trees as a natural fence? Elk seems to use that strategy . Maintain smaller ones up front ...no fences to look at and problem solved.



This is a good idea and much more natural.  :beer:


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Can't answer that without knowing all the specifics...
> 
> sorry...



All of the information concerning this spot including pictures and the history of the severe accidents and fatalities that have occurred there are right in this thread.  All the information needed to answer the question is here. 

As mentioned prior, we are not advocating lining the whole mountain; just strategic locations with negative safety history.

If aesthetics trump saving lives to you, that's fine. Own it. Because that's what appears to be your position.  I could be wrong.  That's why I asked a direct yes or no question.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> I understand your point, but you're just being obtuse to be obtuse and stick to your opinion that you don't like the look of fences.  This is a known problem corner where there has been at least one death (more than 1?) and many more serious injuries have occurred at this spot.  Again, nobody is advocating speed checks or fences everywhere, we are saying specific corners (like this one) which are very dangerous and have lead to injuries - these places should have netting/fencing.



I don't like fences.... sorry...

If someone is continually sliding to their death on the same trail... 
Well....  there's another issue that needs to be resolved..


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> All of the information concerning this spot including pictures and the history of the severe accidents and fatalities that have occurred there are right in this thread.  All the information needed to answer the question is here.
> 
> As mentioned prior, we are not advocating lining the whole mountain; just strategic locations with negative safety history.
> 
> If aesthetics trump saving lives to you, that's fine. Own it. Because that's what appears to be your position.  I could be wrong.  That's why I asked a direct yes or no question.



If people are constantly sliding to their demise on the same trail..
Then of course the ski area is going to put up a fence because we live in a horribly litigious society..

I stopped being a friend with a guy that slid off a trail at Hunter and claimed it was their fault for not having a fence and sued them..
The month before we were on a trip to Whistler..  We skied diagonal chutes... Jumped cornices...
he just fukced up and slid off the trail...


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> If people are constantly sliding to their demise on the same trail..
> Then of course the ski area is going to put up a fence because we live in a horribly litigious society..


Or just maybe the ski area cares about people's lives.  Just saying...


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I don't like fences.... sorry...
> 
> If someone is continually sliding to their death on the same trail...
> Well....  there's another issue that needs to be resolved..



Well, there's evidently a problem with the trail/snow conditions/etc. to cause repetitive problems in that one area.  You said you'd be more against re-grading (as I think everyone would be), so fencing is the easiest way to help things.  Or... like siliconebob said, put in some smaller, softer trees/bushes which can help act as a fence so people aren't going off it directly into rocks and thick-ass pines/oaks/etc.

You do take your own risks going out there, but mountains can certainly be sued and honestly, in an instance like this where you have a corner and the mountain knows it is a problem, yet repeatedly does nothing, there's some grounds to argue negligence there, IMO.


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## Puck it (Mar 30, 2016)




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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Puck it said:


>



Is this a column for ants?!


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

VTKilarney said:


> Or just maybe the ski area cares about people's lives.  Just saying...



Of course...  

just sayin..


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2016)

drjeff said:


> or take some actions such as "speed check" fencing in select places (something I absolutely hate because it ruins the flow of a trail and more often than not creates an ugly, slick, bottleneck where the speed check fencing is set up) to try and keep the speeds down to a reasonable level that will safely allow the average ability skier/rider to use that trail



Sugarbush has one spot with a "speed check fence" (more like a speed check "rope")...at the end of Paradise Extension where it dumps onto Downspout. I absolutely hate it! It is 2 ropes offset with a narrow opening that are difficult to see if you forget they are there (which I've done before as there's no warning ahead of time to slow down).

This picture doesn't do it justice as this is much wider than the opening usually is. Usually the opening is so narrow and such a sharp turn that you almost have to stop to get through it without taking out one of the ropes.


In this case I think a simple "slow down...trails merge" sign would be much safer.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Didn't some guy get decapitated at Killington with a rope fence?


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## Abubob (Mar 30, 2016)

May have missed it - but has anyone considered that he may have not been able to see where he was going given the undercast that day? I've skied into clouds like that before and it is very disorienting. Sometimes you can't even see the snow beneath your skies.


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## Puck it (Mar 30, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> Is this a column for ants?!


I can't get it to resize right.  It is the excerpt from the book about Cannon talking about that same corner and how it got it's name.  Mickey ended up in a the trees upside down and with two busted up knees and a broken back.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Abubob said:


> May have missed it - but has anyone considered that he may have not been able to see where he was going given the undercast that day? I've skied into clouds like that before and it is very disorienting. Sometimes you can't even see the snow beneath your skies.



Whenever I'm in deep fog - I go super slow.
Vetigo is real - and super dangerous.  For many reasons...


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## fcksummer (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I don't like fences.... sorry...
> 
> If someone is continually sliding to their death on the same trail...
> Well....  there's another issue that needs to be resolved..



So basically if presented with a choice, you'd choose death/serious injury over a fence.


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## Cannonball (Mar 30, 2016)

resized...


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

fcksummer said:


> So basically if presented with a choice, you'd choose death/serious injury over a fence.



Where did I say that?

Should we just surround every trail with fence so nobody gets killed?


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Puck it said:


> I can't get it to resize right.  It is the excerpt from the book about Cannon talking about that same corner and how it got it's name.  Mickey ended up in a the trees upside down and with two busted up knees and a broken back.



:lol: Just giving you a hard time, I figured as much.

Someone posted about that info earlier in the thread.  Either way, Cannon seems to have known this corner is a problem for a long time.  It is a shame it has taken a death for more pressure to get put on them, but hopefully they'll make it at least a little more safe and nobody else will have to die there in order to get something done.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Where did I say that?



You haven't specifically said that, however, just about everyone has agreed some type of safety feature of any kind there would be beneficial and all along you just keep saying "I'd rather not have a fence".


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## Puck it (Mar 30, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> resized...


Thx.  It kept giving me errors.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> You haven't specifically said that, however, just about everyone has agreed some type of safety feature of any kind there would be beneficial and all along you just keep saying "I'd rather not have a fence".



No I never did say that.... thank you...

I'd rather not have a fence...  It's just my opinion.
But I understand why ski areas put them up.


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## snoseek (Mar 30, 2016)

I like the small tree idea. Anything but regrading really....the middle of the mtn became a mess with the hsq. I see how they needed a better lift but cannon really skis differently now especially the middle. Would hate to see any additional hacking up top.

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Something Hunter does is to create a barrier with grooming.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> No I never did say that.... thank you...
> 
> I'd rather not have a fence...  It's just my opinion.
> But I understand why ski areas put them up.



Probably safe to say that everyone would rather not have an ugly yellow/orange fence up on a nice looking mountain.  However, sometimes safety is more important than an ugly 100' piece of fencing on a trail.


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## fcksummer (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Where did I say that?
> 
> Should we just surround every trail with fence so nobody gets killed?



You've implied it over and over. Nearly every post of yours in this thread is complaining about fences. Maybe we can dig up another death or injury besides the 4 incidents already mentioned so you have all the specifics.


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## Puck it (Mar 30, 2016)

fcksummer said:


> You've implied it over and over. Nearly every post of yours in this thread has complaining about fences. Maybe we can dig up another death or injury besides the 4 incidents already mentioned so you have all the specifics.


DMC being Funky Catskills.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

fcksummer said:


> You've implied it over and over. Nearly every post of yours in this thread has complaining about fences. Maybe we can dig up another death or injury besides the 4 incidents already mentioned so you have all the specifics.



Not complaining... Just stating my opinion.
I don't enjoy seeing fences...

Not sure why that's bad...


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> Probably safe to say that everyone would rather not have an ugly yellow/orange fence up on a nice looking mountain.  However, sometimes safety is more important than an ugly 100' piece of fencing on a trail.



I understand why ski areas put fences up...
I understand safety... I teach it..


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I understand why ski areas put fences up...
> I understand safety... I teach it..



If you know why and don't disagree with why it would be put up, stop telling us you don't like fences.


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## Cannonball (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't particularly like the aesthetics of guard rails on a scenic road.  But a well-placed one once saved me from plummeting to my death.  I can live with that.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> If you know why and don't disagree with why it would be put up, stop telling us you don't like fences.



I just don't like seeing them....  Sorry..


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> I don't particularly like the aesthetics of guard rails on a scenic road.  But a well-placed one once saved me from plummeting to my death.  I can live with that.



Understood...


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## fcksummer (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Not complaining... Just stating my opinion.
> I don't enjoy seeing fences...
> 
> Not sure why that's bad...



Nobody is asking for fences to make the place look better. Not sure why you keep bringing up your opinion on how they look. The discussion is how to prevent more deaths and serious injuries not how to aesthetically improve this one corner.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 30, 2016)

Puck it said:


>



I thought you were checking to see if we read the fine print


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Something Hunter does is to create a barrier with grooming.



In addition to having blasted out the sides of the mountain with more dynamite than probably any area in the East.  That was likely done in part to provide safe trails to ski on at Hunter.

That's what most of us here are hoping to avoid. Cannon going dynamite crazy.  I'd rather the fence than mass terrain alteration.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

fcksummer said:


> Nobody is asking for fences to make the place look better. Not sure why you keep bringing up your opinion on how they look. The discussion is how to prevent more deaths and serious injuries not how to aesthetically improve this one corner.




And I agreed that a more natural approach using shrubs etc would be better..

But really...  I just hate seeing fences..  

I bring up my opinion because that's what people do in conversations..
Just because my opinion isn't held by 99% of this board doesn't make any less to me...


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> In addition to having blasted out the sides of the mountain with more dynamite than probably any area in the East.  That was likely done in part to provide safe trails to ski on at Hunter.
> 
> That's what most of us here are hoping to avoid. Cannon going dynamite crazy.  I'd rather the fence than mass terrain alteration.



That was done in the 60's.... It's now illegal to do so..
It was done to make the mountain skiable for all levels.. 
Not for safety..  And I do think it's ugly... I look at it every day..  I also think the stripping of all the hemlocks was a bad thing..
Humans suck... What can I say...

Step back from the Hunter thing for a second and listen to what I said..
They create walls out of snow... Maybe a meter high..  On some double fall lines..


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## gmcunni (Mar 30, 2016)

a fence at the corner my daughter skied off might have saved her from the TBI she sustained.  on the other hand, the helmet she had on saved her life (said the neurosurgeon).


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> a fence at the corner my daughter skied off might have saved her from the TBI she sustained.  on the other hand, the helmet she had on saved her life (said the neurosurgeon).



  Sorry to hear this...
How is she now?


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## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> a fence at the corner my daughter skied off might have saved her from the TBI she sustained.  on the other hand, the helmet she had on saved her life (said the neurosurgeon).



Best wishes to your daughter and your family.  I'm unfamiliar with the story and don't want you to need to re-hash anything, so just want to say "best wishes".


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## gmcunni (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Sorry to hear this...
> How is she now?



mostly fine, thanks for asking. it was a few seasons ago.  she may have lingering effects the rest of her life (just had follow up with neurologist monday) but she'll learn to deal with it, nobody is perfect.


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## Puck it (Mar 30, 2016)

Here is a video of Upper Ravine.  The corner in question is at 0:57 roughly.  You can also see the fence at the bottom of the Skylight turn shortly after.

[video]http://claimmyrun.com/watch/1913/?emb=7[/video]


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> That was done in the 60's.... It's now illegal to do so..
> It was done to make the mountain skiable for all levels..
> Not for safety..



Those are contradicting statements



Funky_Catskills said:


> They create walls out of snow... Maybe a meter high..  On some double fall lines..



Limited real estate to work with there for this technique, but it would be worth a shot.  Better than nothing.

Cannon has other areas that concern me too.  There's the "Usual spot" at the split for Extension and Rock Garden.  Last year I saw a four year old girl lose control and catapult into the woods at speed. She went right in between two snowmaking hydrants and had some how missed the trees.  Lucky to be alive.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Those are contradicting statements



Trust me it was about aesthetics more than safety..
People didn't care about safety as much back then..
People were as litigious..


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> mostly fine, thanks for asking. it was a few seasons ago.  she may have lingering effects the rest of her life (just had follow up with neurologist monday) but she'll learn to deal with it, nobody is perfect.



Humans are amazing...
We can come back from all kinds of stuff...

My thoughts to you...


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## dlague (Mar 30, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Killington has nettng in numerous spots around the mountain, has for years, some of it permanent others maintained daily.



Thank you!


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## Abubob (Mar 30, 2016)

Abubob said:


> May have missed it - but has anyone considered that he may have not been able to see where he was going given the undercast that day? I've skied into clouds like that before and it is very disorienting. Sometimes you can't even see the snow beneath your skies.


Again - does no one feel visibility was a factor?


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## Cannonball (Mar 30, 2016)

Abubob said:


> Again - does no one feel visibility was a factor?



I wasn't there that day.  But the AZ reports and pics from that day suggest that it was pretty clear from top to bottom when this happened late in the day.  http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/138136-Cannon-3-26-16


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## dlague (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Those are contradicting statements
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never thought about that area needing anything.  With that in mind, we could get carried away with the idea of fencing - there are trees everywhere, there re areas where a trail either to the left or right might drop off a lot past the groomed edge, there are plenty of trail splits are obviously dangerous as well.

Examples:  Jester at Sugarbush after the first big turn it opens up to a drop off, someone died at a trail split at Stowe on Nosedive, Goats Run has a bad often icy corner that has drop offs.  There are lots of steeper trails with turns at the bottoms that could be bad of an edge were caught.  i do believe that the industry will reach a safety level where nets will be the norm for dangerous areas.  When I was younger a teenager ran into a lift tower and died - back then there was no padding.  Today padding around lift towers is the norm more often then not.

http://www.liski.it/allegati/referenceGSR.pdf


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## witch hobble (Mar 30, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> I wasn't there that day.  But the AZ reports and pics from that day suggest that it was pretty clear from top to bottom when this happened late in the day.  http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php/138136-Cannon-3-26-16


Not to get bogged down in details of tragedy, but do we know it was late in the day?


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## witch hobble (Mar 30, 2016)

It is an awkward spot where the cool, groovy, turny, part of Ravine bangs a hard right and becomes a bit of a traverse/catwalk feeder/collector trail down to the lift.


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## JDMRoma (Mar 30, 2016)

witch hobble said:


> Not to get bogged down in details of tragedy, but do we know it was late in the day?



I did read that it was end of day as in last run of the day. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## witch hobble (Mar 30, 2016)

JDMRoma said:


> I did read that it was end of day as in last run of the day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Not just of the day......

i was was picturing it might have happened early, before the snow softened, and being alone and 40' off trail nobody saw him.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2016)

dlague said:


> I never thought about that area needing anything.  With that in mind, we could get carried away with the idea of fencing - there are trees everywhere, there re areas where a trail either to the left or right might drop off a lot past the groomed edge, there are plenty of trail splits are obviously dangerous as well.
> 
> Examples:  Jester at Sugarbush after the first big turn it opens up to a drop off, someone died at a trail split at Stowe on Nosedive, Goats Run has a bad often icy corner that has drop offs.  There are lots of steeper trails with turns at the bottoms that could be bad of an edge were caught.  i do believe that the industry will reach a safety level where nets will be the norm for dangerous areas.  When I was younger a teenager ran into a lift tower and died - back then there was no padding.  Today padding around lift towers is the norm more often then not.
> 
> http://www.liski.it/allegati/referenceGSR.pdf



In the case of the "Usual spot", I was the one sent down to the Zoomer lift shack to call patrol.

I was so shaken up by the accident I actually stopped into patrol later in the day and asked if she was okay.  They talked of how lucky she was and that people do fly into the woods there from time to time.  I'm not sure it needs a fence, but maybe some padding on the hydrants at least.


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## Jully (Mar 30, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> In the case of the "Usual spot", I was the one sent down to the Zoomer lift shack to call patrol.
> 
> I was so shaken up by the accident I actually stopped into patrol later in the day and asked if she was okay.  They talked of how lucky she was and that people do fly into the woods there from time to time.  I'm not sure it needs a fence, but maybe some padding on the hydrants at least.



Many hydrants tend to have halves of blue barrels facing uphill. I've always wondered if those were for protection.


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## Cannonball (Mar 30, 2016)

witch hobble said:


> Not to get bogged down in details of tragedy, but do we know it was late in the day?



Actually, I guess we don't.  I made the comment about late in the day because this article said he was "...making the last run of the day..."
http://www.telegram.com/article/20160327/NEWS/160329284

But this article says "not known when the fatal accident took place."
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...on-mountain/MRXxAYRYb6L3uMLHmiXiyN/story.html

So, Abubob's point about visibility may be a consideration.  Bad viz + icy conditions = tough combo.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 30, 2016)

Always be careful on the last run of the day...
That's when most people hurt themselves..


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## Not Sure (Mar 30, 2016)

Jully said:


> Many hydrants tend to have halves of blue barrels facing uphill. I've always wondered if those were for protection.



Speaking of hydrants, How much effort does it take to fire up a few guns and resurface the danger areas? Don't have to cover the whole trail just give your guests a chance to make the turn on something edgeable!


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 30, 2016)

As can be seen in that video,the corner is pretty wide and not really intimidating.Of course there was good snow in that video.2 things,it was totally clear that afternoon,zero clouds but the corners were very icy as was most of the upper mt.Just one of those things I'm sorry to say.I dont have as much of an issue with a short fence as FC does but you could point to dozens of corners on Cannon that would be as bad or worse.


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## drjeff (Mar 30, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Speaking of hydrants, How much effort does it take to fire up a few guns and resurface the danger areas? Don't have to cover the whole trail just give your guests a chance to make the turn on something edgeable!



More than one often thinks.

If you've got true, classic "blue ice" than it's not just simply flip the guns on for a couple of hours and problem solved.  That fresh manmade with often quickly slide off the ice patch, especially if it's on a bit of a pitch with limited skier traffic.  It usually becomes a situation where they'd need to produce at least 12-18" in that area, and then push it around a bit to effectively minimize the risk in the area.  Not exactly something typically done in Late March, especially when the forecast had a decent chance for some natural softening to occur


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## Abubob (Mar 30, 2016)

The reason I wonder about visibility is this photo.







It looks as though the cloud starts at about the top of the Peabody Quad. The Profile chair loads below that. How much in the cloud the alleged turn is I can't say. If the accident took place early this could have been a factor but if it was late in the day then likely not.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 30, 2016)

Rip condulences to his family and friends.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2016)

If this was Saturday, I skied at Jay when the cloud was hovering at mid-mountain.  It did not affect visibility nearly as much as I thought it would.


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## xwhaler (Mar 30, 2016)

The cloud layer was above the turn where this happened on Saturday so if it happened early it could have been a factor yes.
Visibility was much better in the sun up high Sat AM despite the hardpack/ice.

By 12:30 when we finished up with lunch up top it was totally clear all the way down to the base of Zoomer.


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## zoomzoom (Mar 30, 2016)

i used to ski at an area that responded in a mature and reasonable manner when patrol recommended a trail be closed because it was unsafe, with icing conditions usually the trigger for closure.  this was years ago, does trail assessment during ops not happen anymore?  or are there marketing pressures to keep the trail counts up?


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 31, 2016)

That pic is from probably mid morning.It was totally clear by noon and this accident was reportely at the end of the day.


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## Abubob (Mar 31, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> That pic is from probably mid morning.It was totally clear by noon and this accident was reportely at the end of the day.


Where was that reported?

This report mentions conditions at the end of the day but doesn't say anything about when Hennessy may have "left the trail". It does mention that he was skiing alone and that he wasn't reported as overdue until 9:20 PM Saturday . No time of death was established. Poor guy might truly have been laying there all day. :sad:

http://www.thelandmark.com/news/201...an_dies_in_New_Hampshire_skiing_accident.html


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

Abubob said:


> Where was that reported?
> 
> This report mentions conditions at the end of the day but doesn't say anything about when Hennessy may have "left the trail". It does mention that he was skiing alone and that he wasn't reported as overdue until 9:20 PM Saturday . No time of death was established. Poor guy might truly have been laying there all day. :sad:
> 
> http://www.thelandmark.com/news/201...an_dies_in_New_Hampshire_skiing_accident.html



According to his father in this article it happened on his last run of the day:
http://www.telegram.com/article/20160327/NEWS/160329284

It doesn't specifically say it was at the end of the day, but it does seem to be the implication that it wasn't first thing in the morning.


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## Abubob (Mar 31, 2016)

cdskier said:


> According to his father in this article it happened on his last run of the day:
> http://www.telegram.com/article/20160327/NEWS/160329284
> 
> It doesn't specifically say it was at the end of the day, but it does seem to be the implication that it wasn't first thing in the morning.


I can't imagine how the father would know unless his son called him - and right before his last last run. Wow. Puts a whole new spin it.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 31, 2016)

Maybe I assumed it was at the end of the day because that statement by his dad.Obviously it was his last run of the day.Reguardless,I was skiing up there first thing and it was foggy but the visibility was fine.I skied Tram and Upper Cannon and had no problem seeing the terrain let alone the trees.


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## Abubob (Mar 31, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Maybe I assumed it was at the end of the day because that statement by his dad.Obviously it was his last run of the day.Reguardless,I was skiing up there first thing and it was foggy but the visibility was fine.I skied Tram and Upper Cannon and had no problem seeing the terrain let alone the trees.


In that case - as already stated - it had to be fatigue. Not visibility. From this description of the man 





> "absolutely loved" the sport, his parents said Sunday.


 I imagine he was trying to ski bell to bell.


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## Edd (Mar 31, 2016)

Abubob said:


> In that case - as already stated - it had to be fatigue. Not visibility. From this description of the man  I imagine he was trying to ski bell to bell.



It HAD to be fatigue? He was alone, correct? If that's the case, we're not likely to know how the accident happened.


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## Funky_Catskills (Mar 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> It HAD to be fatigue? He was alone, correct? If that's the case, we're not likely to know how the accident happened.



I thought it was because there was no fence?


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## Abubob (Mar 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> It HAD to be fatigue? He was alone, correct? If that's the case, we're not likely to know how the accident happened.


True that.


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## Abubob (Mar 31, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I thought it was because there was no fence?


He was texting and didn't SEE the fence.


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## cdskier (Mar 31, 2016)

Edd said:


> It HAD to be fatigue?  He was alone, correct? If that's the case, we're not likely to know how the accident happened.



My thoughts as well. Even an expert skier that isn't tired at all can still make a mistake or catch an edge, hit a patch of ice, etc. We can speculate all we want, but that's all it will ever be...speculation.


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## Puck it (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I thought it was because there was no fence?


Asshole response!


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

Meanwhile - Cannon is freaking out because this thread exists...


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

cdskier said:


> My thoughts as well. Even an expert skier that isn't tired at all can still make a mistake or catch an edge, hit a patch of ice, etc. We can speculate all we want, but that's all it will ever be...speculation.



Total speculation..


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Meanwhile - Cannon is freaking out because this thread exists...



Your evidence for this statement?


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## Puck it (Apr 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Your evidence for this statement?


HE is just being DMDick again.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Your evidence for this statement?



No evidence..    sorry...

I just know that ski areas monitor this site...  If I was PR at Cannon... i wouldn't be stoked to see this thread...


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## Cannonball (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> No evidence..    sorry...
> 
> I just know that ski areas monitor this site...  If I was PR at Cannon... i wouldn't be stoked to see this thread...



Why?


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

Cannonball said:


> Why?



Just my opinion..

But Ski areas and deaths that occur there are bad public relations...

Really not trying to piss anybody off - just stating something..


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## gmcunni (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> No evidence..    sorry...



so what you are saying is . . .  wait for it. . . .



Funky_Catskills said:


> Total speculation..




:wink:


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

gmcunni said:


> so what you are saying is . . .  wait for it. . . .



No really just my opinion based upon observation..


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

AND I am in no way against Cannon for any reason...  I really want to check it out..


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## Jcb890 (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> No evidence..    sorry...
> 
> I just know that ski areas monitor this site...  If I was PR at Cannon... i wouldn't be stoked to see this thread...



Do you actually work for Cannon?  Why would you care about their PR when a person died on their mountain and we are discussing safety.  Perhaps you're the guy that would have to maintain the fencing and that's why you don't want to install it?  Too much work?


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> Do you actually work for Cannon?  Why would you care about their PR when a person died on their mountain and we are discussing safety.  Perhaps you're the guy that would have to maintain the fencing and that's why you don't want to install it?  Too much work?



Back off bro..  
These are just my observations.

I know for a fact that Alpine Zone is monitored by ski areas...
I know for a fact that PR people do not like deaths associated with their ski areas...

My opinion is - that fences are ugly and maybe theres a better way...

You really need to back off...  Thanks...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> No evidence..    sorry...
> 
> I just know that ski areas monitor this site...  If I was PR at Cannon... i wouldn't be stoked to see this thread...



It's part of the job.  Not everyday will  be about thousands of people having a good time in the snow.  Sometimes tragedies happen, so people naturally want to know why it happened and how a similar event can be prevented in the future. If you work in PR and aren't prepared to deal with such matters, you're in the wrong job.


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## JDMRoma (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Back off bro..
> These are just my observations.
> 
> I know for a fact that Alpine Zone is monitored by ski areas...
> ...



What are the other ways ??

Fences may be ugly but death is way more ugly. 
Safety first in my opinion. Not asthetics 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> It's part of the job.  Not everyday will  be about thousands of people having a good time in the snow.  Sometimes tragedies happen, so people naturally want to know why it happened and how a similar can be prevented in the future. If you work in PR and aren't prepared to deal with such matters, you're in the wrong job.



You may be prepared - but it's never good..

Sorry I went meta..  I'll step away..


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

JDMRoma said:


> What are the other ways ??
> 
> Fences may be ugly but death is way more ugly.
> Safety first in my opinion. Not asthetics
> ...



Cool... I respect your thoughts...


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

the other things suggested were:

1. Small shrubs / trees to block the people sliding..
2. using snow to create a berm/wall to keep people from sliding off the trail..
3. regrading trail.


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## Puck it (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> the other things suggested were:
> 
> 1. Small shrubs / trees to block the people sliding..
> 2. using snow to create a berm/wall to keep people from sliding off the trail..
> 3. regrading trail.



1 and 3 are not an option.  The side of the trail drops off sharply and Upper Hard is just below the point( not a lot of distance between the trails).  Berm could be and option and there usually is one in good snow years.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 1, 2016)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Back off bro..
> These are just my observations.
> 
> I know for a fact that Alpine Zone is monitored by ski areas...
> ...



Back off?  It was clearly sarcasm as you have your location set as NY, which is obviously nowhere near Cannon... or would be quite the commute!

You have been worried about all of the wrong things in this thread.  First you were worried about how fences look and now you're worried about PR.  With the prices these mountains charge for lift tickets and season passes, I don't think we need to shed any tears for the cash flow of the businesses running these mountains.  Also, of course it is going to be bad PR and they aren't going to love it getting press.  Too bad.  That's what happens with all ski areas when deaths occur... people talk about it and usually try to find ways to prevent it... which is what people are doing in this thread.  Nobody has come in just to bash Cannon or to say that they are liable or anything of that nature.  The constructive comments in this thread have centered around how to keep this from happening again.

It has been established the best way to help this trail is fencing.  This has been addressed multiple times due to the layout of the terrain and is again discussed in the post above mine.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 1, 2016)

Jcb890 said:


> Back off?  It was clearly sarcasm as you have your location set as NY, which is obviously nowhere near Cannon... or would be quite the commute!
> 
> You have been worried about all of the wrong things in this thread.  First you were worried about how fences look and now you're worried about PR.  With the prices these mountains charge for lift tickets and season passes, I don't think we need to shed any tears for the cash flow of the businesses running these mountains.  Also, of course it is going to be bad PR and they aren't going to love it getting press.  Too bad.  That's what happens with all ski areas when deaths occur... people talk about it and usually try to find ways to prevent it... which is what people are doing in this thread.  Nobody has come in just to bash Cannon or to say that they are liable or anything of that nature.  The constructive comments in this thread have centered around how to keep this from happening again.
> 
> It has been established the best way to help this trail is fencing.  This has been addressed multiple times due to the layout of the terrain and is again discussed in the post above mine.



Cool...  Thanks for this.
Appreciate your opinion and side of the story..


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