# Honda CRV v. Toyota Rav4 v. Subaru Forester



## highpeaksdrifter (Apr 18, 2009)

I’ve test drove all 3 and done the internet research and I think I’ve made up my mine, but I’d like to here from anyone who owns or has an informed opinion on any of these models. My main concerns would be handling winter conditions and storage.

I presently own a 2004 Honda CRV.


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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 18, 2009)

I just replaced my 98' CRV with a new truck.  It was a good vehicle, AWESOME in the snow.  

My mother just got a 09' CRV around X-Mas and she says she likes it alot.  I have only driven it once, but it seemed to have real nice power for a 4 cylinder.  The front seats are some of the most comfortable I have sat in.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 18, 2009)

I owned at 2003 Rav4 L 4WD and loved it.  No problems getting out in the snow.  The only reason I gave it to my mother was my company gave me personal use over an Escape Hybrid 4WD, which the later just gave me.  Storage was sometimes cramped, but the current Rav4 is longer.  I didn't really like they way the seats fold up either.  The swing-arm back door was cool, but there were times when I wished I could just pop open the glass to put small items in the back.

It will be interesting to me in a 4-5 years when it's time to replace the escape what power plants cars will be using.  That said, I would get another hybrid.


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## RISkier (Apr 18, 2009)

I was shopping this class of vehicles in November 07.  When I test drove the Honda I had to stop a couple of times at women's clothing stores to try on dresses.  IMO, not a bad vehicle but the consummate soccer mom vehicle.  I test drove the RAV-V at least 3 times.  Always wanted to love it.  Always thought it would do everything I needed.  But I never loved it.  I liked the 08 Subie but it lacked some things I thought I wanted and I knew the 09 was on the horizon.  Test drove a Nissan Rogue and thought yes.  Test drove it again and basically decided to buy one.  Found a decent deal and did.  I've been very happy with it.  That said, it doesn't have as much storage (not critical to me).  Of the three you're comparing, I'd go for the Subie.  Very functional design.  The squarish design makes the cubic feet of storage very useable.  Probably the best all wheel drive system on the market.  Does very well in safety tests.  Subies do tend to have some quirkiness but if I were shopping today it would be Rogue versus Forester.


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## MR. evil (Apr 18, 2009)

You really can't go wrong with any Honda or Toyota. I know a bunch of people with Subaru's and they all love them. But ALL of them have had mechanical issues with the vehicles around the 24 to 36 month mark.  I would go on the ConsumerReports web site and purchase one of there vehicle reports to get the low down on all 3.


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## Edd (Apr 19, 2009)

Just rented an 09 RAV4 for a week.  I like the space, it was super functional for ski trips and the 4 cylinder was surprisingly torquey.  There was more road noise than I'd prefer.  When I got back into my old 02 Legacy wagon I realized for sure it has a more solid feel than the RAV4.  I read reviews frequently and Subaru's ride is highly regarded.  The reliability of the brand is well documented.  I bet you're planning to buy the Forester.

In 2010 the Ouback/Legacy line is all new, with more space.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2009)

I'll beat the Hyundai drum and tell you to at least give a Tuscon a test drive.  I personally feel that in the past few years Hyundai has matched Toyota and Honda for reliability, but come at a cheaper price tag with better warranty.

I test drove Camry, Accord and Sonata.  Sonata had all the same features, drove better and cost several thousand less for the same trim and had the better warranty.  2.5 years and 65K miles in, zero complaints on the car.  I'm sure I'd feel the same way for one of their small SUV's.


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## andrec10 (Apr 19, 2009)

I had a 06 CRV that I just gave to my son. With snows, it is a billygoat in the snow. Has over 80k and is still very solid with only Brakes to be done.


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## bobbutts (Apr 19, 2009)

Still love my 05 Forester XT.. big redesign between that one and the current version so not sure how much my love applies.


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## tjf67 (Apr 19, 2009)

*Crv*

We have an 07 CRV.  It gets 25 MPG.  Handles well in the snow.  Solid feal.  

The tires wear that come from the company in 30k miles.
Cabin could be a little quieter.

Overall very good vehicle.


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## Philpug (Apr 19, 2009)

Subies by far have the best AWD system out if the bunch. Having owned close to 15 of them and another 2 dozen in family and friends, only one had issues between 24 and 36 months. I have a 09 Forester and for the most part it has done 110% of what is promised.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2009)

Hyundai

:lol:


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## skijay (Apr 19, 2009)

This is what I have been doing for a month!!

I am going with the Forester (09 Premium - can not decide between 5 speed or automatic)

What I like about the Subaru:
AWD system - not a glorified traction control system.
Ground clearance
For $24,000 - You can get a Forester with heated seats, and the huge sunroof plus the power stuff.
Subaru offers a 5 speed manual.

What I do not like:
I looked at the maintenance schedule of the 09 Subaru and it requires plugs & brake fluid to be changed at 30K.  I thought most vehicles go 100k before a tune up.

After driving the CRV, XC70, X3, Rav4, Santa Fe, Torrent, Equinox, VUE, Outback, Escape, Rogue, the Subaru impressed me the most, plus it is inexpensive!


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## Philpug (Apr 19, 2009)

skijay said:


> This is what I have been doing for a month!!
> 
> I am going with the Forester (09 Premium - can not decide between 5 speed or automatic)
> 
> ...



Get the stick if you can, I have the auto and should have too. Yes, the plugs need to be done at 30, but they are cheap, not expensive platinums. Also, a non interference motor for the timing belt.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 19, 2009)

Philpug said:


> Get the stick if you can



Why?


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## Geoff (Apr 19, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Why?



With the AWD system, it will be pretty sluggish with an automatic.  It's also only a 4 speed automatic in a day & age where most cars have 5 or 6 speeds.


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## roark (Apr 19, 2009)

I drove all of the above (2005 model year). And bought a Mitsuibishi Outlander LS AWD (Manual).


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## wa-loaf (Apr 19, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Why?



I've got an Outback with 5 speed. Had in the shop for brakes and they gave me a loaner. Basically the same car but with auto. It felt lifeless and underpowered. Autos suck.


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## Philpug (Apr 19, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Why?





Geoff said:


> With the AWD system, it will be pretty sluggish with an automatic.  It's also only a 4 speed automatic in a day & age where most cars have 5 or 6 speeds.





wa-loaf said:


> I've got an Outback with 5 speed. Had in the shop for brakes and they gave me a loaner. Basically the same car but with auto. It felt lifeless and underpowered. Autos suck.



Yeah, the auto is a 4 speed and a dawg.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 19, 2009)

Never knew. You guys would hate the Escape Hybrid.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Apr 20, 2009)

Thanks for all the good info so far. You guys have given me some things to think about.



wa-loaf said:


> I've got an Outback with 5 speed. Had in the shop for brakes and they gave me a loaner. Basically the same car but with auto. It felt lifeless and underpowered. Autos suck.



Unfortunately I have to go with an auto transmission. My wife will be driving this SUV on occasion and her and a standard would not work well.


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## dmc (Apr 20, 2009)

Tried them all...  Had Foresters for my last 2 cars...  
First one - engine went bad(head) at 200,000+
Second on - Hit a moose at 100,000 - was in great shape..

Don't like the new Foresters - too big now...  

Ended up with a VW Tiguan...  Liked it best out of the class...


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## campgottagopee (Apr 20, 2009)

HPD, all 3 of the cars you’re looking at are awesome, good for you. I’ll give you my 2 cent……..

First choice would be Subie (surprise) for 3 major reasons----far superior AWD system, more ground clearance and a more comprehensive warranty. Subie actually covers brakes, rotors, wipers light bulbs etc for 3yrs/36k where many others only cover for 12/12.

Good luck!!!


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## danny p (Apr 20, 2009)

sorry to slightly hijack:

camp,
did you see the 2010 outbacks have an electronic (push-button, i think?) e-brake?  what's up with that?  Are the forrester's going to have that too?  Seems weird to me...I like the idea of having a handle to yank up in emergencies....


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## campgottagopee (Apr 20, 2009)

danny p said:


> sorry to slightly hijack:
> 
> camp,
> did you see the 2010 outbacks have an electronic (push-button, i think?) e-brake?  what's up with that?  Are the forrester's going to have that too?  Seems weird to me...I like the idea of having a handle to yank up in emergencies....



I did read that but haven't seen the car yet in person---have a meeting next month so will have more info for you then.


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## danny p (Apr 20, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> I did read that but haven't seen the car yet in person---have a meeting next month so will have more info for you then.



thanks...deciding between an 09 or 10 so any intel will be much appreciated...


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## gmcunni (Apr 20, 2009)

we have an 09 CRV. replaced a 06 pilot.

handles fine in 6-8 or less inches of snow,   haven't driven it in more than that.
with skis + gear inside it is a tight fit for 4 people on a day trip. looking to get a roof rack for next year.
crv does not have a lot of power but the gas mileage is pretty good (25ish on hw).
less than thrilled with the reduced set of comfort/functional features compared to the pilot  but wanted better gas mileage so living with it.


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## Glenn (Apr 20, 2009)

dmc said:


> Ended up with a VW Tiguan...  Liked it best out of the class...



How do you like it overall? I haven't talked to anyone who's owned one yet.


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## dmc (Apr 20, 2009)

Glenn said:


> How do you like it overall? I haven't talked to anyone who's owned one yet.



Love it... Handles great - zippy - very comfy.. gets 26mph..  Fits my drums and snowboards...  Trouble free at 18,000 and almost a year...

Just wish it was the TDI/Manual that I've seen in Europe...


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## Glenn (Apr 20, 2009)

Cool, sounds like a nice rig. I've been seeing more of them on the road lately. 

I hear ya. VW (and most of the German's) have a bunch of great diesel engines.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Apr 20, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll beat the *Hyundai* drum and tell you to at least give a *Tuscon* a test drive.  I personally feel that in the past few years Hyundai has matched Toyota and Honda for reliability, but come at a cheaper price tag with better warranty.
> 
> I test drove Camry, Accord and Sonata.  Sonata had all the same features, drove better and cost several thousand less for the same trim and had the better warranty.  2.5 years and 65K miles in, zero complaints on the car.  I'm sure I'd feel the same way for one of their small SUV's.





deadheadskier said:


> Hyundai
> 
> :lol:



This car is basically the same as the Kia Sportage, yes?

I never considered Kia before, but there are some nice rebates on them right now. I could get a Sportage with 4WD and a V6 for just over $16,000. Seems pretty good. What do you guys think?


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## campgottagopee (Apr 20, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> This car is basically the same as the Kia Sportage, yes?
> 
> I never considered Kia before, but there are some nice rebates on them right now. I could get a Sportage with 4WD and a V6 for just over $16,000. Seems pretty good. What do you guys think?



Unlike Deadhead I'm NOT convinced Hyundai/Kia have arrived yet----they don't take the milage as good as your other choices, and they certainly lack in the re-sale value. Watever you save up front you'll lose when it's time to get rid of it.

JMO, but I'd stick to your first 3 choices.


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## Geoff (Apr 20, 2009)

dmc said:


> Love it... Handles great - zippy - very comfy.. gets 26mph..  Fits my drums and snowboards...  Trouble free at 18,000 and almost a year...
> 
> Just wish it was the TDI/Manual that I've seen in Europe...



I really like the interior on Volkswagens.  It blows away the Japanese alternatives.  Which option level do you have?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Unlike Deadhead I'm NOT convinced Hyundai/Kia have arrived yet----they don't take the milage as good as your other choices, and they certainly lack in the re-sale value. Watever you save up front you'll lose when it's time to get rid of it.
> 
> JMO, but I'd stick to your first 3 choices.



re-sale value is a problem for now, so it depends if you are someone who keeps their cars for a long time.  I believe those values are based on the company's bad reputation for quality up until recently.

Only first hand experience here and as mentioned, 65K miles in and zero issues on the current car. Test drove a Camry, Accord and Ford Fusion and I liked the Sonata better than the other cars.

As mentioned in another thread, my father recently traded in his Infinity M35X for a Genesis.  The Genesis out performs the Infinity in every way except a tad less gas mileage.  Car cost him 12K less than the Infinity.

My future inlaws have 5/6 year old Sante Fe and a Tiburon.  Both cars with over 100K miles, zero issues.

A Tuscon or Kia Sportage are at least worth a look and a test drive in that class of vehicles.


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## skijay (Apr 20, 2009)

Subi has a diesel, just not here yet.

http://www.boxerdiesel.com/


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## campgottagopee (Apr 20, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> re-sale value is a problem for now, so it depends if you are someone who keeps their cars for a long time.  I believe those values are based on the company's bad reputation for quality up until recently.
> 
> Only first hand experience here and as mentioned, 65K miles in and zero issues on the current car. Test drove a Camry, Accord and Ford Fusion and I liked the Sonata better than the other cars.
> 
> ...



I hear what your saying and realize the company is MUCH better than previous years. I'd just have a hard time putting my hard earned dollars into something that has less than a 50% residule value in 24 mo's, that's all. Right now, IMO, your father would retain more of that 12k he were to spend up front on the Infinity than what he save on the Genesis. If someone plans on running a car into the ground....that's another ball game were Hyundai/Kia should be looked at.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 20, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> I hear what your saying and realize the company is MUCH better than previous years. I'd just have a hard time putting my hard earned dollars into something that has less than a 50% residule value in 24 mo's, that's all. Right now, IMO, your father would retain more of that 12k he were to spend up front on the Infinity than what he save on the Genesis. If someone plans on running a car into the ground....that's another ball game were Hyundai/Kia should be looked at.



You're in the biz and would know better than I on resale.  He chose the Genesis purely on performance; the 12K savings was just a bonus.  His best friend also recently switched from the top of the line Acura SUV to a Veracruz, same scenario.

Maybe not today, but I'd be willing to bet 4-5 years from now, the resale on Hyundai's will show a marked improvement.


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## Geoff (Apr 21, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> You're in the biz and would know better than I on resale.  He chose the Genesis purely on performance; the 12K savings was just a bonus.  His best friend also recently switched from the top of the line Acura SUV to a Veracruz, same scenario.
> 
> Maybe not today, but I'd be willing to bet 4-5 years from now, the resale on Hyundai's will show a marked improvement.



I guess a point here is that residual value only matters if you are the type who swaps cars every few years.  I drive mine until they need to be crushed into a coffee table.

I suspect part of the problem with Korean cars is that many of the owners don't take care of them properly.


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## Philpug (Apr 21, 2009)

skijay said:


> Subi has a diesel, just not here yet.
> 
> http://www.boxerdiesel.com/



I hope it is still coming, but I am hearing now that it might not be. Shame, it was at the top of my list to get when I am replacing my current Forester. 



Geoff said:


> I guess a point here is that residual value only matters if you are the type who swaps cars every few years.  I drive mine until they need to be crushed into a coffee table.
> 
> I suspect part of the problem with Korean cars is that many of the owners don't take care of them properly.



Resale also comes into play when a car is in an accident/totalled or stolen. I agree they still aren't there yet and have taken massive strides to improve. How a few people take care of cars has nothing to do with the global resale value, poor initial quality and huge incentives have to do with resale value. 

If you want better resale, don't flood the market, don't use huge rebates and incentives and hold prices. Don't be surprised when there is a $2,000 rebate on a car and 0%financing and the car doesn't retain its value. a $25,000 car that you buy for $20,000 is not a $25,000 car, the $25K is artificially inflated and unrealistic. In this case everyone of that $25K car is used, is now worth $7,000 less. because of the incentives on the new ones.


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## Geoff (Apr 21, 2009)

Philpug said:


> If you want better resale, don't flood the market, don't use huge rebates and incentives and hold prices. Don't be surprised when there is a $2,000 rebate on a car and 0%financing and the car doesn't retain its value. a $25,000 car that you buy for $20,000 is not a $25,000 car, the $25K is artificially inflated and unrealistic. In this case everyone of that $25K car is used, is now worth $7,000 less. because of the incentives on the new ones.



That's not a very good argument.  If the street price for a $25K sticker price car is $20K, the cost basis is $20K.  You need to calculate the depreciation hit from that lower number.


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## mlctvt (Apr 21, 2009)

skijay said:


> Subi has a diesel, just not here yet.
> 
> http://www.boxerdiesel.com/



Yeh, stupid Subaru of America turned down Subaru's offer to try to market this car here. Apparently SOA said a manual transmission diesel wouldn't sell well here. Funny I personally know several people who would buy a Legacy Wagon 6MT diesel if offered.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 21, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> Yeh, stupid Subaru of America turned down Subaru's offer to try to market this car here. Apparently SOA said a manual transmission diesel wouldn't sell well here. Funny I personally know several people who would buy a Legacy Wagon 6MT diesel if offered.



Put me on that list.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 22, 2009)

Philpug said:


> I hope it is still coming, but I am hearing now that it might not be. Shame, it was at the top of my list to get when I am replacing my current Forester.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Spot on!!!!


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## campgottagopee (Apr 22, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> Yeh, stupid Subaru of America turned down Subaru's offer to try to market this car here. Apparently SOA said a manual transmission diesel wouldn't sell well here. Funny I personally know several people who would buy a Legacy Wagon 6MT diesel if offered.



That's news to me----where did you get that info??


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## thorski (Apr 22, 2009)

So what kind of shoes should i get my girlfriend for her birthday? Another girlfriend told me jimmy choo or channel? What do you guys think?  I can tell you guys are better at these kinds of things then me.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 22, 2009)

thorski said:


> So what kind of shoes should i get my girlfriend for her birthday? Another girlfriend told me jimmy choo or channel? What do you guys think?  I can tell you guys are better at these kinds of things then me.



Get her some hiking boots. :smash:


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## wa-loaf (Apr 22, 2009)

Nice article on Subaru today: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30295854/

Although the dude's description of the boxer engine is way off.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm usually driving my Tacoma but I occationally drive the '09 Forester my wife and I bought last Fall. It ran very well this winter. My wife was able to get out of the driveway after 16 inches of snow fell overnight without snow tires. That said, I'm going to slap some snow tires on it next year to make it a beast in the snow. No mechanical issues at this time. The power is pretty good as it can maintain 70mph without downshifting on most hills along I-91 here in northern VT. The large sunroof lets in a lot of natural light and it feels like your in a convertable without the wind noise.
I test drove a RAV4 as well but though the cockpit was overly complicated with gadgets that would just collect dust. The ride was comparable but the Subie was cheaper and I wouldn't have to drive an hour to a dealership for servicing like I do with my truck.


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## mlctvt (Apr 23, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> That's news to me----where did you get that info??



This pertained to the present Legacy boxer diesel introduced last year in Europe. The engine is currently only available with the manual transmission. Rumour has it that this was offered to SAO but they were't interested until an auto version was also offered. Kinda mute anyway since the wagon is the biggest seller in Europe and SOA abandoned the Legacy wagon in the US ( 2007 was the last year.) But they still could have offered it in the Outback, Forester or Legacy sedan since those are still offered as manuals in the US.  
My guess is they will offer a clean diesel sometime in the future. 

I get most of my Subaru info from www.legacygt.com  or www.nasioc.com forums


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## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> This pertained to the present Legacy boxer diesel introduced last year in Europe. The engine is currently only available with the manual transmission. Rumour has it that this was offered to SAO but they were't interested until an auto version was also offered. Kinda mute anyway since the wagon is the biggest seller in Europe and SOA abandoned the Legacy wagon in the US ( 2007 was the last year.) But they still could have offered it in the Outback, Forester or Legacy sedan since those are still offered as manuals in the US.
> My guess is they will offer a clean diesel sometime in the future.
> 
> I get most of my Subaru info from www.legacygt.com  or www.nasioc.com forums




Okay, I now agree with you---Subie was trying to bring diesel to the U.S. this model year but from their research they are going to hold off for a couple more years. What they have found is "we" Americans prefer battery power over diesle but Subie is still in favor of the diesle.


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## mlctvt (Apr 23, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Okay, I now agree with you---Subie was trying to bring diesel to the U.S. this model year but from their research they are going to hold off for a couple more years. What they have found is "we" Americans prefer battery power over diesle but Subie is still in favor of the diesle.



yah- look at this 

http://jalopnik.com/5045843/subaru-...er-diesel-bringing-37-mpg-to-paris-motor-show

37MPG in the current Forrester!! I'd prefer a Legacy or Outback but this is great. 

My friend sells VWs and he says they have lots of Jetta diesel sedans in stock at great prices. Not many wagons though. He said the cost of diesel over gas is a problem for many people right now.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 23, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> He said the cost of diesel over gas is a problem for many people right now.



Anyone know why this is?  I thought the cost to produce diesel was cheaper than unleaded gas.


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## campgottagopee (Apr 23, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> yah- look at this
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/5045843/subaru-...er-diesel-bringing-37-mpg-to-paris-motor-show
> 
> ...




Nice link, thanks.

Hear ya, I'd love a Outback with a turbo diesel--what a great car


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## wa-loaf (Apr 27, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know why this is?  I thought the cost to produce diesel was cheaper than unleaded gas.



Diesel in the last year shifted to a cleaner version with low sulfur, so the refining costs have gone up. The good news is that it is up to snuff with the diesel they've had in Europe for a while, making it easier to bring their diesels here.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 27, 2009)

One thing that is annoying me about my Outback is that the heat shield seems to be made up of a lot of little pieces and they are starting to come loose. I get one fixed to stop the rattle and another starts up. :smash:


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 27, 2009)

Not to hijack, but, might the new 2010 GMC Terrain be worth considering??  Looks good, IMHO....Maybe a little too brash.


GMC EXPANDS ITS ENGINEERING EXPERTISE WITH THE EFFICIENT AND CAPABLE 2010 TERRAIN 

_* All-new, five-passenger crossover SUV delivers expected segment-best highway fuel economy of 30 mpg
* Comprehensive package of premium features, with an emphasis on vehicle safety and passenger comfort
* GMC's engineering excellence and innovation advances with direct injection technology, programmable power liftgate and standard rear vision camera

NEW YORK –GMC's all-new 2010 Terrain makes its world debut at the 2009 New York International Auto Show. The Terrain is a five-passenger crossover SUV that blends bold styling with fuel efficiency and premium features.

"The new Terrain brings GMC's history of innovation and engineering excellence into a smaller, fuel-efficient package for today's buyer," said Susan Docherty, Buick-Pontiac-GMC vice president. "The capability attributes that make a vehicle a GMC are ingrained in Terrain, making it an appealing choice for existing traditional SUV customers who are looking for distinctive styling and increased efficiency."

A new, 2.4L four-cylinder engine that features direct injection is expected to deliver best-in-segment highway fuel economy of 30 mpg. Maximum fuel economy is achieved in part with an "ECO" mode that is activated via a console-mounted button. When engaged, it lowers the torque converter lockup speed to 1,125 rpm to help save fuel on models equipped with the 2.4L engine.

Also available will be a 3.0L DOHC direct injected V-6 engine delivering an estimated 264 horsepower (197 kW). Both engines are mated to efficiency-enhancing six-speed automatic transmissions and offer a refined, confident driving experience.

"GMC is a strong, core brand for GM and the Terrain crossover SUV is the latest example of how we're adapting to changing market conditions," said Docherty. "As we first demonstrated with the Acadia crossover, GMC is committed to offering the capable vehicles customers seek, with the personal technologies they expect."

The 2010 Terrain goes on sale in late summer, with front-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive models offered in SLE and SLT trim levels. A comprehensive list of standard and available features includes purposeful technologies such as:

* Standard rear vision camera
* Programmable power rear liftgate
* Bluetooth hands-free phone capability
* MultiFlex sliding rear seat that increases passenger comfort or provides optimal cargo space
* Remote vehicle start
* USB audio connectivity; MP3 playback
* Seven-inch touch-screen navigation system and a 40-gigabyte hard drive
* DVD-based rear-seat entertainment system with two independent screens
* Standard OnStar and XM Satellite Radio

Segment-best safety is anticipated, with features that include four-wheel disc brakes with StabiliTrak electronic stability control and traction control, as well as six standard air bags: dual frontal air bags; head curtain side air bags and pelvic/thorax seat-mounted side air bags. OnStar with one-year Safe and Sound service is also standard.

Bold styling

Terrain has a balanced, athletic stance and offers a commanding view of the road. Its design is characterized by bold, muscular fender flares, representing GMC's aesthetic. Surfacing is angular yet refined, with a strong and capable front-end appearance that features precise, squared-off edges.

"We wanted to carve the GMC Terrain away from the pack and establish its identity as a powerful, fresh crossover SUV with a confident and strong stance," said John Cafaro Jr., director of exterior design, Global Crossover Vehicles. "Everything about the Terrain communicates a sense of tailored toughness and passionate craftsmanship."

Additional design features include a unique, three-element grille that is accented by a prominent chrome surround and projector-beam headlamps mounted in large, rectangular housings with chrome accents.

Interior details and flexibility

The Terrain's rich, premium interior is influenced by industrial sculpture and exudes refinement exemplified by contrast stitching and fine materials that create a structured look throughout the cabin. A "floating" center stack, highlighted by warm ambient lighting, houses a multitude of ergonomic comfort and convenience controls.

The Terrain also features great attention to detail, with smart use of storage space and compartments that are suitable for a variety of items. They include an oversized glove box; a closed storage area in the instrument panel above the center stack; a closed storage compartment under the center armrest large enough for a laptop computer; and two-tier storage in the doors.

Terrain's seats were developed to provide outstanding comfort and the standard MultiFlex sliding rear seat can be moved fore or aft nearly eight inches (200 mm), providing increased passenger comfort or greater rear cargo capacity. The 60/40-split rear seatback offers additional configurations for passengers and cargo; and the rear cargo area offers 31.6 cubic feet (894 liters) of storage, as well as one of the Terrain's four auxiliary power outlets.

Confident and agile driving experience

Two new engines are offered on all Terrain models, each with fuel-saving direct injection and variable valve timing technology. Vehicle highlights include:

* New 3.0L DOHC direct injected V-6 engine estimated at 264 horsepower (197 kW), which delivers an estimated 25 mpg highway, 18 mpg city (EPA certification pending).
* New 2.4L Ecotec direct injected I-4 engine estimated at 182 horsepower (136 kW) that delivers an estimated 30 mpg highway, 21 mpg city (EPA certification pending)
* Driving range of more than 500 miles (800 km) with both engines, for less-frequent fill-ups

The powertrains are mounted on a rigid, body-integral structure, with single-piece body side stampings and targeted applications of high-strength steel. It is the foundation of a confident driving experience that is both smooth and responsive.

GM's first application of Active Noise Cancellation (ANC) technology is used on 2.4L-equipped models. ANC uses microphones to detect booming sounds inside the vehicle and sends counteracting sound waves through the audio system's speakers, ensuring a quiet driving experience at almost all vehicle speeds.

The Terrain rides on a 112.5-inch (2,857 mm) wheelbase and features a four-wheel independent suspension system, with wide front and rear tracks that enhance the ride and handling. A family of 17-inch, 18-inch aluminum and 19-inch chrome-clad wheels is available.

Terrain's rack-mounted electric power steering system provides greater fuel efficiency on four-cylinder-equipped models, saving nearly 11 miles per tank of gas.

GMC Terrain will be produced at the CAMI assembly facility in Ingersoll, Ontario._


----------



## bigbog (Apr 27, 2009)

*...if your wife will be using FT?...*

Skip,
_Was_ going to put $.01 in for RAV4...have seen a few with mods(fender-work/spacing for larger tires = more clearance...etc)...but if your wife will be using...PT/FT?...she's probably more into staying on the pavement..;-)     Fwiw..I haven't read of any real negatives towards any of em'....

$.01
STeveD


----------



## hammer (Apr 27, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> One thing that is annoying me about my Outback is that the heat shield seems to be made up of a lot of little pieces and they are starting to come loose. I get one fixed to stop the rattle and another starts up. :smash:


I had the dealer's shop work on the heat shield on my Outback several times before they finally welded something and fixed it once and for all...guess it's one of those design features...


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 27, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> One thing that is annoying me about my Outback is that the heat shield seems to be made up of a lot of little pieces and they are starting to come loose. I get one fixed to stop the rattle and another starts up. :smash:



Just yank the darn thing off of there


----------



## Glenn (Apr 27, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Anyone know why this is?  I thought the cost to produce diesel was cheaper than unleaded gas.




As mentioned, the low sulfer regulations. Also, demand is higher with more nations becoming industrialized.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh and if anyone really needs more convincing on Hyundai, just watch this.


----------



## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Oh and if anyone really needs more convincing on Hyundai, just watch this.




Ugliest vehicles out there tight now are Hyundais and kias.
A Gnarbarian wouldn't even be seen tailgating next to one.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Ugliest vehicles out there tight now are Hyundais and kias.
> A Gnarbarian wouldn't even be seen tailgating next to one.



Think what you want, opinions vary

I'll take the looks of my Sonata over the other vehicles it competes against in it's class: Accord, Altima, Camry

I think the Tuscon is a better looking ride than the CRV, RAV4 or Rouge as well

no sense speaking of the Chevy and Ford offerings, don't really view them as competition.


----------



## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Think what you want, opinions vary
> 
> I'll take the looks of my Sonata over the other vehicles it competes against in it's class: Accord, Altima, Camry
> 
> ...



Thats funny. My silverado will outlast anything you own kid.
Chevy malibu is a much better car then the sonata.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Thats funny. My silverado will outlast anything you own kid.
> Chevy malibu is a much better car then the sonata.



big fan of American built trucks.  I had an Explorer for ten years, that I beat the hell out of and was still running fairly decent at 197K miles.

American built car?  no thanks

Maybe the new Malibu is finally decent, but the older ones were utter crap.


----------



## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> big fan of American built trucks.  I had an Explorer for ten years, that I beat the hell out of and was still running fairly decent at 197K miles.
> 
> American built car?  no thanks
> 
> Maybe the new Malibu is finally decent, but the older ones were utter crap.



You could kinda compare the american car companies to an alcoholic. People can clean up their acts and get it back together.  
I think it sucks about pontiac. I wonder if it was Foreshadowing when Megatron ripped Jazz in half. Maybe hyundai will hire some of pontiacs design people and give the ugly korean ducklings some style.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> You could kinda compare the american car companies to an alcoholic. People can clean up their acts and get it back together.
> I think it sucks about pontiac. I wonder if it was Foreshadowing when Megatron ripped Jazz in half. Maybe hyundai will hire some of pontiacs design people and give the ugly korean ducklings some style.



Dude,

It's free freakin' country.  You keep rolling down the road in your Chevy blasting Sweet Home Alabama.  I'm perfectly happy driving what I do.  No sense in trolling around a ski website banging your made in America drum.  I'm not listening and really don't care what you think.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Oh and if anyone really needs more convincing on Hyundai, just watch this.



That's been going around for a while now----very funny stuff!!!


----------



## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Dude,
> 
> It's free freakin' country.  You keep rolling down the road in your Chevy blasting Sweet Home Alabama.  I'm perfectly happy driving what I do.  No sense in trolling around a ski website banging your made in America drum.  I'm not listening and really don't care what you think.



Feelings mutual. i don't listen to LS. That is about as bad as listening to the Dead


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Feelings mutual. i don't listen to LS. That is about as bad as listening to the Dead



At least you're consistent, both your taste in cars and music apparently sucks.

Have a nice day


----------



## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

You to buddy.


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> At least you're consistent, both your taste in cars and music apparently sucks.
> 
> Have a nice day





thorski said:


> You to buddy.



:lol: You guys are funny.


----------



## Glenn (Apr 29, 2009)




----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> :lol: You guys are funny.



Hey, trolls need to eat too, and I'm a sucker for feeding them 


but just in case people need convincing of cars not to buy, don't even consider buying something as hideous looking as what I drive...






or my old man drives






man what a couple of ugly cars


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Hey, trolls need to eat too, and I'm a sucker for feeding them
> 
> 
> but just in case people need convincing of cars not to buy, don't even consider buying something as hideous looking as what I drive...
> ...



I'm generally on your side in this discussion, but these cars are simply boring looking. Maybe reliable and a good deal, but still boring.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> I'm generally on your side in this discussion, but these cars are simply boring looking. Maybe reliable and a good deal, but still boring.



Certainly not ground breaking in design I'll give you that, but a helluva lot better than their cars of old and certainly better looking than the Pontiac line.

What Hyundai finally did is say, if you can't beat em', join em'.  The Sonata is meant to catch the attention of an Accord driver and it looks very similar to recent additions.  The Genesis has a very similar front end look to a Mercedes, the middle looks almost exactly the same as an Infinity G35 and the back looks like A BMW 5 series

Genesis




5 Series





nothing ground breaking, nothing revolutionary, and while beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think thorski's stance is pretty ridiculous.


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

HPD, you make a purchase yet???


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 29, 2009)

Lately Hyundais are looking more and more like Bimmers..my Subie looks like a Saab 9-3


----------



## Edd (Apr 29, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Lately Hyundais are looking more and more like Bimmers..my Subie looks like a Saab 9-3



The last generation Impreza and one of the Saab models are mechanical twins because, I think, GM owned a piece of Subaru for awhile and they own Saab.


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 29, 2009)

Edd said:


> The last generation Impreza and one of the Saab models are mechanical twins because, I think, GM owned a piece of Subaru for awhile and they own Saab.



Yes, the Saab was just a re branded Subi.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 29, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> Yes, the Saab was just a re branded Subi.



Because my 2006 Impreza sits next to a 2005 Saab 9-3..and I think my whip looks steezier cause the rims shine like the grille of one of Dr. Jeffs patients..ya heard


----------



## campgottagopee (Apr 29, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Because my 2006 Impreza sits next to a 2005 Saab 9-3..and I think my whip looks steezier cause the rims shine like the grille of one of Dr. Jeffs patients..ya heard



You're on your game today Steeze


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Apr 30, 2009)

Edd said:


> The last generation Impreza and one of the Saab models are mechanical twins because, I think, GM owned a piece of Subaru for awhile and they own Saab.





wa-loaf said:


> Yes, the Saab was just a re branded Subi.





it was the Saab 9-2x that was a rebadged Imprezza....i don't think the 9-3 shares much of anything with subaru (the 9-3 shares its platform with opel):


----------



## Glenn (Apr 30, 2009)

FunFact (pointless knowledge). 

Production would have been delayed by about 6 months if they wanted to engineer the traditional Saab "center consoel key start" into the Saabaru. So, they just left it in the steerting column.


----------



## Philpug (Apr 30, 2009)

The Saabaru, IMHO looked better than the "propellor" grilled Impreza. Plus you could get a sunroof in the Aero but not in the WRX (or really any of the Impreza wagons).


----------



## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> it was the Saab 9-2x that was a rebadged Imprezza....i don't think the 9-3 shares much of anything with subaru (the 9-3 shares its platform with opel):



These two cars look like gremlins.


----------



## tjf67 (May 1, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Just yank the darn thing off of there




That what I was thinking.  They get yanked off of most of my cars when they start rattling.  Have yet to start a field on fire


----------



## thorski (May 1, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> That what I was thinking.  They get yanked off of most of my cars when they start rattling.  Have yet to start a field on fire



Heat shields protect wiring and hoses from heat that will cause cracking and premature failure. They are not really there to stop fires and can be taken off, as long as your not clueless and leave a wire directly on the exhaust.


----------



## hrstrat57 (May 9, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Thanks for all the good info so far. You guys have given me some things to think about.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I have to go with an auto transmission. My wife will be driving this SUV on occasion and her and a standard would not work well.



extremely bad choice.

better pony up the extra dough for the turbo but then you are pouring premium into the tank....

she needs to learn to drive the 5 speed, which she will love, subie sticks are pretty struggle free....my wife loves driving mine and she is a mini van queen....


----------



## Warp Daddy (May 10, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> it was the Saab 9-2x that was a rebadged Imprezza....i don't think the 9-3 shares much of anything with subaru (the 9-3 shares its platform with opel):



 Absolutely right the 9.2 was a SAABERU or SUBERAAB   -- it didn't last long  totally wrong marketing concept .Why pay extra for the Saab-like skin  -- made  zero sense to me 

On the other hand the  9.3's looking nothing at all like a Subaru  they have a shared platform with Opel i do believe . I have a vintage  saab 900  and a '97 Saab 9,3 sport combi  . Saab's recent divorce from GM  is interesting , many saabophiles have long been of the opinion that that relationship  was not good for saab -- we'll see if the brand will morph into something along more traditional saab lines 

Also have Toyota on my radar screen  having owned a super   2000  Celica GT


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 10, 2009)

I wish they sold Opels in the US


----------



## skijay (May 17, 2009)

Thanks to all of you who replied to this thread.  After looking at all that was available plus two others, a 2008 BMW X3 and a 2008 Volvo XC70  (both certified pre-owned), I decided on the 09 Forester X (premium).  I was leaning towards the Forester XT, but the reason I did not want the X3 or XC70 was the premium fuel and I was not sure I wanted to go turbo.  Surpisingly, I found an 08 XC70 with about 5,000 miles for $4,000 more than I paid for the Subaru.  I did drive it & liked it, but honestly I liked the Subi better.

I also found an X3 - kind of the base model - if that is a word in the BMW world also with a little over 15,000 miles for $7k more than the Subi.  The X3 handled incredibly and it was white, but again, I felt more comfortable in the Subi.

Both of the cars were at their respective dealers.  How come so cheap?  Both of these retailed around $40K new.  The CPO's have a warranty that looks better than the standard warranty when buying new.


----------



## Philpug (May 17, 2009)

skijay said:


> Thanks to all of you who replied to this thread.  After looking at all that was available plus two others, a 2008 BMW X3 and a 2008 Volvo XC70  (both certified pre-owned), I decided on the 09 Forester X (premium).  I was leaning towards the Forester XT, but the reason I did not want the X3 or XC70 was the premium fuel and I was not sure I wanted to go turbo.  Surpisingly, I found an 08 XC70 with about 5,000 miles for $4,000 more than I paid for the Subaru.  I did drive it & liked it, but honestly I liked the Subi better.
> 
> I also found an X3 - kind of the base model - if that is a word in the BMW world also with a little over 15,000 miles for $7k more than the Subi.  The X3 handled incredibly and it was white, but again, I felt more comfortable in the Subi.
> 
> Both of the cars were at their respective dealers.  How come so cheap?  Both of these retailed around $40K new.  The CPO's have a warranty that looks better than the standard warranty when buying new.


The CPO warranties from BMW and Volvo are very good and depending on the miles that are on the car when you get it, they can be better than the warranty on a new one. With that said, you made a better choice in getting the Forester.


----------



## Glenn (May 18, 2009)

Philpug said:


> The CPO warranties from BMW and Volvo are very good and depending on the miles that are on the car when you get it, they can be better than the warranty on a new one. With that said, you made a better choice in getting the Forester.



That built ZJ @ the 2minute mark is fawking sweet!!!! :-o


----------



## Geoff (May 18, 2009)

skijay said:


> Thanks to all of you who replied to this thread.  After looking at all that was available plus two others, a 2008 BMW X3 and a 2008 Volvo XC70  (both certified pre-owned), I decided on the 09 Forester X (premium).  I was leaning towards the Forester XT, but the reason I did not want the X3 or XC70 was the premium fuel and I was not sure I wanted to go turbo.  Surpisingly, I found an 08 XC70 with about 5,000 miles for $4,000 more than I paid for the Subaru.  I did drive it & liked it, but honestly I liked the Subi better.
> 
> I also found an X3 - kind of the base model - if that is a word in the BMW world also with a little over 15,000 miles for $7k more than the Subi.  The X3 handled incredibly and it was white, but again, I felt more comfortable in the Subi.
> 
> Both of the cars were at their respective dealers.  How come so cheap?  Both of these retailed around $40K new.  The CPO's have a warranty that looks better than the standard warranty when buying new.



I think you would have found that an X3 would have chewed you alive in maint costs if you owned it for a half-dozen years.  Premium gas only costs 20 cents more than regular.  At $2.00+, it's less than 10% extra and probably not worth worrying about.  It's the service costs, even with an independent mechanic, that you need to worry about in terms of long term cost of ownership.  The gas might be a $ hundred or two extra per year if you're driving 20K miles.  The service is likely to be way more than that.  Everybody & his brother knows how to work on a Subaru since they're everywhere in north country.


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 16, 2009)

I went with a Subaru Forester 2.5X Premium 2010, picked it up last night.

I'm glad I started this thread cause you guys gave me a lot to think about, thanks or that.

A special thanks to Camp for answering the questions I pmed him and giving me good advice.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 16, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wish they sold Opels in the US





they do, under the brand name "saturn".


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 16, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I went with a Subaru Forester 2.5X Premium 2010, picked it up last night.
> 
> I'm glad I started this thread cause you guys gave me a lot to think about, thanks or that.
> 
> A special thanks to Camp for answering the questions I pmed him and giving me good advice.





CONGRATS!!!  what color?  pix?

love the new car smell.


----------



## RootDKJ (Jun 16, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I went with a Subaru Forester 2.5X Premium 2010, picked it up last night.
> 
> I'm glad I started this thread cause you guys gave me a lot to think about, thanks or that.
> 
> A special thanks to Camp for answering the questions I pmed him and giving me good advice.


Congrats.  My brother has a Forester.  He''s been happy with it.


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 16, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> CONGRATS!!!  what color?  pix?
> 
> love the new car smell.



Thanks, Black, I love that smell too.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 16, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Thanks, Black, I love that smell too.




sweet!  it looks good in black.  well done.


----------



## bigbog (Jun 16, 2009)

*Forester lift kit!*

I think the Foresters can handle slightly larger tires.  I'm finding a lift(suspension/body) kit dedicated to the vehicle, which is welcome news = easy & safe tweak for good mechanic.
The videos are fun to watch..but the terrain is usually just mud & water over relatively flat terrain.  You try 15mph+ over a few buried rocks & potholes like out in the real world....and you can break an axle without much practice.
Appropriate _Tires_, with clearance for them...is the answer.  either a 2-3" suspension or body lift then a more aggressive tire can work well...just get the spacing/tire right...and check the fender space = a little fender work...and you're good to go.  
The thin tire dealers make it look like the thicker you go...the worse mileage you get...not today, 3rd party tire manufacturers make some of the more aggressive tires with firmer rubber than the softer standard highway tires = great glide.
_$.01_from_the_sticks_
STeveD


----------



## Glenn (Jun 16, 2009)

Pics or it didn't happen.  ;-)

Enjoy the new ride1


----------



## Geoff (Jun 16, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Thanks, Black, I love that smell too.



I had a black car once.  Never again.  The thing looks filthy 30 minutes after you wash it.  It's an oven in the summer.  If I had a "car boy" to wash it every day, they sure look great.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 17, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I had a black car once.  Never again.  The thing looks filthy 30 minutes after you wash it.  It's an oven in the summer.  If I had a "car boy" to wash it every day, they sure look great.





talk about a buzzkill kind of post for HPD....:smash:


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 17, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I had a black car once.  Never again.  The thing looks filthy 30 minutes after you wash it.  It's an oven in the summer.  If I had a "car boy" to wash it every day, they sure look great.





ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> talk about a buzzkill kind of post for HPD....:smash:



That's ok. He's right about black showing the dirt. I was thinking about buying a white one, but you could only get it with a light interior color which I it didn't care for. Plus I just like the way the black one looks on the few days it is clean. ;-)


----------



## Glenn (Jun 17, 2009)

I had a black Jetta. It got dirty easily, but shined like crazy when I detailed it. You can never beat the shine of a black car.


----------



## campgottagopee (Jun 17, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I went with a Subaru Forester 2.5X Premium 2010, picked it up last night.
> 
> I'm glad I started this thread cause you guys gave me a lot to think about, thanks or that.
> 
> A special thanks to Camp for answering the questions I pmed him and giving me good advice.



Nice choice, black is beautiful!!!! Glad you waited for the '10's---heck, they only went up $300 bucks. Glad I could help HPD---looking forward to seeing it covered with snow this year at WF.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jun 17, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> That's ok. He's right about black showing the dirt. I was thinking about buying a white one, but you could only get it with a light interior color which I it didn't care for. Plus I just like the way the black one looks on the few days it is clean. ;-)



First of all HPD  Kudos on nice new set of Wheels !!!  Subies are a great choice for we winter sports nuts > hope u get many yrs out of this baby

I too had a  2000 Bitchin Black on Black Celica GT  -- one hot looking set of wheels at the time , had to wash that puppy quite a bit  but with reflective  windshield and rear window sun screens we were able to somewhat control the oven  from happening in the summer . They are a PIA to keep using BUT they do help keep the car reasonably cool


----------



## campgottagopee (Jun 17, 2009)

One more thing Subie fans, just got back from seeing the 2010 Legacy/Outback line up. Pix don't do it justice but the car is SA-WEET!


----------



## hammer (Jun 17, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> One more thing Subie fans, just got back from seeing the 2010 Legacy/Outback line up. Pix don't do it justice but the car is SA-WEET!


When do they start showing up in showrooms?

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a new Infiniti G37x sedan but I'm keeping my options open...


----------



## campgottagopee (Jun 17, 2009)

hammer said:


> When do they start showing up in showrooms?
> 
> I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a new Infiniti G37x sedan but I'm keeping my options open...



We'll be ordering them July for August delivery


----------



## hammer (Jun 17, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> We'll be ordering them July for August delivery


Any info on price ranges on the 3.6 variants?

Curious because I'm looking at just under $34K for a G37x...


----------



## campgottagopee (Jun 17, 2009)

hammer said:


> Any info on price ranges on the 3.6 variants?
> 
> Curious because I'm looking at just under $34K for a G37x...



Nothing "official" other than I know the "base" sedan will start at $19999---based on the 3.0R sedan we used to have I would guess your in the ball park in the "mid" 30's. That car is worth the wait for you to look at. Albeit the G37x is sweet too.


----------



## hammer (Jun 17, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Nothing "official" other than I know the "base" sedan will start at $19999---based on the 3.0R sedan we used to have I would guess your in the ball park in the "mid" 30's. That car is worth the wait for you to look at. Albeit the G37x is sweet too.


Thanks...need to look at the 3.6 Premium/Limited variants if I want to make a reasonable comparison with the G37x.

Tough part about waiting is that the price I can get on the G factors in a $2000 incentive that's supposed to go away at the end of June...I'd rather delay my purchase, so I'm hoping that Infiniti will extend the incentive...


----------



## campgottagopee (Jun 17, 2009)

hammer said:


> Thanks...need to look at the 3.6 Premium/Limited variants if I want to make a reasonable comparison with the G37x.
> 
> Tough part about waiting is that the price I can get on the G factors in a $2000 incentive that's supposed to go away at the end of June...I'd rather delay my purchase, so I'm hoping that Infiniti will extend the incentive...



Nissan very rarely changes incentives, so I would guess you'll be safe.


----------



## bigbog (Jun 18, 2009)

*nice vehicle...*

Nice HPDrifter..., guess the "_have fun_" phrase won't be needed...


----------



## Philpug (Jun 18, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> One more thing Subie fans, just got back from seeing the 2010 Legacy/Outback line up. Pix don't do it justice but the car is SA-WEET!



I drove a Legacy the other day. I will post a review in a separate thread.


----------



## Edd (Feb 21, 2010)

Bought a 2010 Forester yesterday, X premium trim.  It's a sweet ride and Subaru is offering 2.9% financing now.  

I consider myself to be a super careful shopper but I missed something when I purchased this.  I've had a Sirius subscription for 5 years now and, because the radios are listed as "satellite ready" and they have the appropriate buttons on the stereo console, that it would be as easy as calling Sirius and switching my account to this new radio.  Wrong.  They have to install the hardware behind the radio first.  They charge between $500-600 for this, maiking this easily one of the most expensive satellite radio setups around.  Big detail.  I checked with Best Buy for a way around this without replacing the deck.  No dice.  If I replace the deck I risk losing use of the steering wheel audio controls and the aux jack between the seats.  This kind of bums me out but my fault for not checking on this deeper.

To end this on a positive note, the car seems super solid and I can't wait to drive it in some snow.


----------



## powbmps (Feb 21, 2010)

The upcharge is rediculous.  Does Sirius offer a Skydock like XM?  It works great with either an i-touch or i-phone.  I hooked one up in my wife's 2010 Outback.  Around $100 I believe.



Edd said:


> Bought a 2010 Forester yesterday, X premium trim.  It's a sweet ride and Subaru is offering 2.9% financing now.
> 
> I consider myself to be a super careful shopper but I missed something when I purchased this.  I've had a Sirius subscription for 5 years now and, because the radios are listed as "satellite ready" and they have the appropriate buttons on the stereo console, that it would be as easy as calling Sirius and switching my account to this new radio.  Wrong.  They have to install the hardware behind the radio first.  They charge between $500-600 for this, maiking this easily one of the most expensive satellite radio setups around.  Big detail.  I checked with Best Buy for a way around this without replacing the deck.  No dice.  If I replace the deck I risk losing use of the steering wheel audio controls and the aux jack between the seats.  This kind of burns me up but my fault for not checking on this deeper.
> 
> To end this on a positive note, the car seems super solid and I can't wait to drive it in some snow.


----------



## spring_mountain_high (Feb 22, 2010)

Edd said:


> Bought a 2010 Forester yesterday, X premium trim.  It's a sweet ride and Subaru is offering 2.9% financing now.
> 
> I consider myself to be a super careful shopper but I missed something when I purchased this.  I've had a Sirius subscription for 5 years now and, because the radios are listed as "satellite ready" and they have the appropriate buttons on the stereo console, that it would be as easy as calling Sirius and switching my account to this new radio.  Wrong.  They have to install the hardware behind the radio first.  They charge between $500-600 for this, maiking this easily one of the most expensive satellite radio setups around.  Big detail.  I checked with Best Buy for a way around this without replacing the deck.  No dice.  If I replace the deck I risk losing use of the steering wheel audio controls and the aux jack between the seats.  This kind of bums me out but my fault for not checking on this deeper.
> 
> To end this on a positive note, the car seems super solid and I can't wait to drive it in some snow.



quite possibly the worst thing about owning a subaru is the inflexibility of the audio system...that's pretty much my only complaint so far in driving subys for the past 8 years now


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 22, 2010)

Edd said:


> Bought a 2010 Forester yesterday, X premium trim.  It's a sweet ride and Subaru is offering 2.9% financing now.
> 
> I consider myself to be a super careful shopper but I missed something when I purchased this.  I've had a Sirius subscription for 5 years now and, because the radios are listed as "satellite ready" and they have the appropriate buttons on the stereo console, that it would be as easy as calling Sirius and switching my account to this new radio.  Wrong.  They have to install the hardware behind the radio first.  They charge between $500-600 for this, maiking this easily one of the most expensive satellite radio setups around.  Big detail.  I checked with Best Buy for a way around this without replacing the deck.  No dice.  If I replace the deck I risk losing use of the steering wheel audio controls and the aux jack between the seats.  This kind of bums me out but my fault for not checking on this deeper.
> 
> To end this on a positive note, the car seems super solid and I can't wait to drive it in some snow.



That seems a bit high---I would think you could get it done by a dealer closer to 450


----------



## Glenn (Feb 22, 2010)

Toss in an aftermarket radio? I don't know how much the Subi stuff is integrated into the car though.


----------



## hammer (Feb 22, 2010)

Edd said:


> Bought a 2010 Forester yesterday, X premium trim.  It's a sweet ride and Subaru is offering 2.9% financing now.
> 
> I consider myself to be a super careful shopper but I missed something when I purchased this.  I've had a Sirius subscription for 5 years now and, because the radios are listed as "satellite ready" and they have the appropriate buttons on the stereo console, that it would be as easy as calling Sirius and switching my account to this new radio.  Wrong.  They have to install the hardware behind the radio first.  They charge between $500-600 for this, maiking this easily one of the most expensive satellite radio setups around.  Big detail.  I checked with Best Buy for a way around this without replacing the deck.  No dice.  If I replace the deck I risk losing use of the steering wheel audio controls and the aux jack between the seats.  This kind of bums me out but my fault for not checking on this deeper.
> 
> To end this on a positive note, the car seems super solid and I can't wait to drive it in some snow.


What does it mean to be "satellite ready"?  With my 2009 Volvo, it was (and is) a matter of just activating the subscription...


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 22, 2010)

hammer said:


> What does it mean to be "satellite ready"?  With my 2009 Volvo, it was (and is) a matter of just activating the subscription...



Pre-wired for the sat stuff


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 22, 2010)

Glenn said:


> Toss in an aftermarket radio? I don't know how much the Subi stuff is integrated into the car though.



Meh, IMO, aftermarket never looks as good as factory and you would not have the same warrnaty coverage---spend the $$$ and get it done from the factory/dealer----much better off in the long run.


----------



## spring_mountain_high (Feb 22, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Meh, IMO, aftermarket never looks as good as factory and you would not have the same warrnaty coverage---spend the $$$ and get it done from the factory/dealer----much better off in the long run.



there is little to no aftermarket for subaru...the stereo electric is wired into the heat/ac controls etc and it's tough to get anyone other than the dealer to touch it


----------



## Glenn (Feb 22, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Meh, IMO, aftermarket never looks as good as factory and you would not have the same warrnaty coverage---spend the $$$ and get it done from the factory/dealer----much better off in the long run.



Yeah, that's one thing now...they've nixed regular radios for these oddly shaped ones that are the size of a lunch tray. "It doesn't have nav...but the station numbers are 3" high!"


----------



## marcski (Feb 22, 2010)

hammer said:


> What does it mean to be "satellite ready"?  With my 2009 Volvo, it was (and is) a matter of just activating the subscription...



I did not get the satellite for my audi, but there is a slot in the audio system which is in the trunk, waiting for it to slide into.


----------



## hammer (Feb 22, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Pre-wired for the sat stuff


Good to know...

"satellite ready" <> "satellite radio installed"

Personally, I'd much rather have an integrated iPod connection.  Had the Sirius trial subscription for 6 months...didn't impress me enough to pay $10/month more for.


----------



## Glenn (Feb 22, 2010)

I got a new phone recently. I'm really impressed with slacker and pandora. As long as you have a good 3g connection, they seem to deliver. Free too.


----------



## campgottagopee (Mar 12, 2010)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I’ve test drove all 3 and done the internet research and I think I’ve made up my mine, but I’d like to here from anyone who owns or has an informed opinion on any of these models. My main concerns would be handling winter conditions and storage.
> 
> I presently own a 2004 Honda CRV.



Been nearly a year HPD, couple questions------1. Do you still feel you made the right purchase. 2. How does the Forester handle winter driving conditions. 3. Does the Forester have ample storage. 4. What 3 things DONT you like about your Forester.


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 12, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Been nearly a year HPD, couple questions------1. Do you still feel you made the right purchase. 2. How does the Forester handle winter driving conditions. 3. Does the Forester have ample storage. 4. What 3 things DONT you like about your Forester.



1. For sure
2. very well, my drive way in Wilmington is long, steep and curvey. Times when I've gotten there after snow, before the plow guy, I've had no trouble getting up it. 
3. Yeah, about the same as my CRV. At least it feels that way.
4. I can't really think of any.


----------



## Geoff (Mar 12, 2010)

hammer said:


> Good to know...
> 
> "satellite ready" <> "satellite radio installed"
> 
> Personally, I'd much rather have an integrated iPod connection.  Had the Sirius trial subscription for 6 months...didn't impress me enough to pay $10/month more for.



I wish all cars came with a USB interface and a radio that understood Apple playlist format.   I should just be able to dock my iPod and use the steering wheel controls.   I have that on my home AV Receiver.   With the Apple talking play list and song title stuff they use on the 3G shuffle, you could even do a reasonable job on the cheap without needing a display.  

On my car, the aux audio input is in the glove box.   I never got around to rigging up something more permanent so I have a minijack cable dangling out of the glove box.


----------



## campgottagopee (Mar 12, 2010)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> 1. For sure
> 2. very well, my drive way in Wilmington is long, steep and curvey. Times when I've gotten there after snow, before the plow guy, I've had no trouble getting up it.
> 3. Yeah, about the same as my CRV. At least it feels that way.
> 4. I can't really think of any.



Great, glad you're enjoying your ride----I asked you question 4 for a reason, and I find it very interesting......we had a customer in here a while back who did his car buying research via a mall parking lot by asking Subaru owners (all years and conditions) to tell him 3 "things" they didn't like about their Subie, and according to him, not 1 person named 3 "things". To me that's impressive.


----------



## lerops (Feb 21, 2011)

Reviving an old thread...

I am finally getting out of the city. Getting a car as well. I am looking at the Forester, but can't decide between the Premium and the Turbo Premium. Any thoughts by someone who might have owned both? I test drove both, but i am looking for a longer term perspective.

And secondly any tips to save on Subaru shopping?


----------



## RootDKJ (Feb 21, 2011)

lerops said:


> Reviving an old thread...
> 
> I am finally getting out of the city. Getting a car as well. I am looking at the Forester, but can't decide between the Premium and the Turbo Premium. Any thoughts by someone who might have owned both? I test drove both, but i am looking for a longer term perspective.
> 
> And secondly any tips to save on Subaru shopping?


Turbo + winter =  Turbo + altitude =


----------



## Edd (Feb 21, 2011)

lerops said:


> Reviving an old thread...
> 
> I am finally getting out of the city. Getting a car as well. I am looking at the Forester, but can't decide between the Premium and the Turbo Premium. Any thoughts by someone who might have owned both? I test drove both, but i am looking for a longer term perspective.
> 
> And secondly any tips to save on Subaru shopping?



I have had the Premium for a year and pretty much love it.  The sunroof and winter package are nice.  

I had no desire for the turbo but the expense alone would have kept me from it.  Going from memory I think it requires premium gas and it might be less reliable than the base engine as well.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2011)

will the diesel be released in the US anytime soon?  You would think with the great success that VW has had that Subaru would get in on the action.

Not that I'll be a buyer, it's well documented how I feel about Subarus.


----------



## Edd (Feb 21, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> will the diesel be released in the US anytime soon?  You would think with the great success that VW has had that Subaru would get in on the action.
> 
> Not that I'll be a buyer, it's well documented how I feel about Subarus.



It seems I read why the U.S. has so few diesels from time to time and it goes in one ear and out the other because I feel like it's all bull***.  It simply must be less profitable for some companies if the U.S. were to embrace them.

I think you'll come to your senses about Subarus one day...


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2011)

maybe I will.  I just don't trust that the company will offer recalls on design flaws.  The whole head gasket issue that went on for what? a decade? That should've been a recall.

from a utility/practicality stand point, Subarus certainly have a lot of positive attributes at a fair value.  

Realiability is a big factor for me though.  My maintenance experience with Hyundai has been incredible.  135K miles, two minor fixes under warranty and then just basic maintenance.


----------



## lerops (Feb 21, 2011)

Edd said:


> I have had the Premium for a year and pretty much love it. The sunroof and winter package are nice.
> 
> I had no desire for the turbo but the expense alone would have kept me from it. Going from memory I think it requires premium gas and it might be less reliable than the base engine as well.


Thanks Ed. I ran the numbers a little bit and it did not look too bad. Maybe 10-15%.

It probably requires more maintenance in more frequent oil changes, but why would it be less reliable? Also, I read somewhere that the engine on non-turbo Forester 2011 is new, which might bring reliability issues of its own.

Sunroof is truly amazing though. So, is the visibility in the car, windows are huge!


----------



## Edd (Feb 21, 2011)

lerops said:


> Thanks Ed. I ran the numbers a little bit and it did not look too bad. Maybe 10-15%.
> 
> It probably requires more maintenance in more frequent oil changes, but why would it be less reliable? Also, I read somewhere that the engine on non-turbo Forester 2011 is new, which might bring reliability issues of its own.
> 
> Sunroof is truly amazing though. So, is the visibility in the car, windows are huge!



Again, I was just going from memory as far as reliability stats.  Camp will probably jump in at some point and correct me.  As far as numbers, I wonder if the insurance would be more expensive too.  The car isn't only worth more, but it's faster.

Whenever she drives it my girlfriend always mentions the lack of blind spots.  Nobody gets in for a ride without commenting on how big the sunroof is.


----------



## Geoff (Feb 21, 2011)

Edd said:


> It seems I read why the U.S. has so few diesels from time to time and it goes in one ear and out the other because I feel like it's all bull***.  It simply must be less profitable for some companies if the U.S. were to embrace them.
> 
> I think you'll come to your senses about Subarus one day...



I'm hoping VW will extend the option package on their TDi Jetta wagon.  My GTI has some features like Xenon headlights and leather sport seats that I would have a tough time giving up.   On the Jetta TDI wagon, the only thing you can add is a "premium package" that has a sunroof, Nav, USB control of an iPod, and lower profile alloy wheels.   If I collapsed my life down to one car, I'd also like to get 4Motion AWD with it.  You can get it in Europe configured that way.

I guess they are worried about stealing business from Audi.   I've dealt with a few VW/Audi dealers and I have no interest in owning a car where they price gouge for service like that.   A VW-only dealer tends to charge service rates that are competitive with everybody else.   Audi dealers gouge like Porsche and BMW dealers.


----------



## Glenn (Feb 21, 2011)

I don't think turbos are any less reliable these days. They've come a long way since the 1980's.


----------



## o3jeff (Feb 21, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I don't think turbos are any less reliable these days. They've come a long way since the 1980's.


Exactly, I have a turbo and it's not like years ago where you have to let them cool down before shutting down, etc. Very fun to drive with little lag. I do run premium gas per manufacturers recomendations.


----------



## gmcunni (Feb 21, 2011)

I had a 2000 saab 93 turbo. The car with snow tires as a awesome ride in the snow. handled hills and corners great. braking was good too. Only think to keep in mind is keeping RPM low so the turbo doesn't kick in when you are dealing with harsh conditions. regardless of how good the tires were if i spooled up the turbo i would always loose traction.  it was fun to play with tho.  and as Root mentioned, the cold winter air makes it like a super turbo!


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 21, 2011)

lerops said:


> Reviving an old thread...
> 
> I am finally getting out of the city. Getting a car as well. I am looking at the Forester, but can't decide between the Premium and the Turbo Premium. Any thoughts by someone who might have owned both? I test drove both, but i am looking for a longer term perspective.
> 
> And secondly any tips to save on Subaru shopping?



As Edd mentioned with an XT model you'll be burning premium fuel. If you're cool with that I say go for it 'cause they are a blast to drive. Be sure to be faithful when it comes to changing the oil----clean oil will keep that turbo nice and cool  which is key for good performance and longevity.

Other than special APR there are no other incentives for Subie right now (or in the past 2 years). We don't need them like other manufactures do;-)


----------



## Geoff (Feb 21, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> I had a 2000 saab 93 turbo. The car with snow tires as a awesome ride in the snow. handled hills and corners great. braking was good too. Only think to keep in mind is keeping RPM low so the turbo doesn't kick in when you are dealing with harsh conditions. regardless of how good the tires were if i spooled up the turbo i would always loose traction.  it was fun to play with tho.  *and as Root mentioned, the cold winter air makes it like a super turbo!*



Yeah, but the added wind resistance you get from the denser air more than offsets the boost in engine performance from denser air.   I lose about 3 mpg when it's subzero from the dense air.

Snow driving performance doesn't have anything to do with RPM or horsepower.   It's going easy on any changes to all the inputs.   Steering, braking, accelerating.   The car wants to go straight at a constant speed.   Anything you do to change that can cause you to lose traction.   You can be in the 300 hp club and have perfect control over the car if you drive it properly.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2011)

Camp

any word on when the deisel Foresters are coming stateside?


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 21, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Camp
> 
> any word on when the deisel Foresters are coming stateside?



Nothing official, but we may start seeing them MY2013. One thing for sure is we'll see a deisel be4 a hybrid, that I do know, well, unless Fuji changes their mind.

Dealer meeting is in a few months so I'll have a better idea then.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2011)

I wonder how succesful someone would be in operating a 'true' import business.  Not that I know anything at all about the business behind selling cars.

There just seems to be many desired models from various brands available in Europe that are not available here in the states.  I'm sure it's all demographic study based and I'm sure the cost of shipping a car over are large.

For me, a Mazda6 wagon would be high on my list of desired cars to replace mine when that day comes.  Apparently they're hugely popular in Australia.

http://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2011-6_wagon/


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 21, 2011)

Be real tough. Getting the cars here is one thing (not to hard), getting them registered and passing inspection in the states is another ( the tough part). The biggest issue one would run into is emmissions.....getting the emmissions in line to pass over here would be BIG bucks. Couldn't even imagine it. 

Now exporting is another thing. Some of those dudes do pretty darn good for themselves.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2011)

Europes standards on emissions aren't as high as the US?  that's surprising to me.


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 21, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Europes standards on emissions aren't as high as the US?  that's surprising to me.



We have California to thank for that


----------



## Glenn (Feb 21, 2011)

Diesels are great engines. If they were more widely manufactured, the price would most certainly go down. 

And yes, thank you Cali...more specifically CARB for that. Duh!


----------



## Geoff (Feb 23, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> Be real tough. Getting the cars here is one thing (not to hard), getting them registered and passing inspection in the states is another ( the tough part). The biggest issue one would run into is emmissions.....getting the emmissions in line to pass over here would be BIG bucks. Couldn't even imagine it.



The tough part is DOT crash standards.  If the car hasn't already been through the test, you sacrifice 10 cars for crash testing.   That's why you don't see grey market Citroens, etc here.

For something like a diesel Subaru, it would be way cheaper to just import the parts you are missing and retrofit them onto a US car.   That stays completely under the radar screen in most states.   You just tell motor vehicles you converted it to diesel.   Probably wouldn't work somewhere like California but you can always register it in a state that doesn't have emissions testing.


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 23, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> will the diesel be released in the US anytime soon?  You would think with the great success that VW has had that Subaru would get in on the action.
> 
> Not that I'll be a buyer, it's well documented how I feel about Subarus.


I was jumping on the diesel band wagon a year or two ago... but not so much any more. Both Chevy and Ford now have regular gas cars that get 40 MPG. I think there is still a market for diesel in larger vehicles that can't get there (see the VW Jetta Wagon at just over 40 but is the premium really worth the extra 10ish MPG? Depends on what gas prices do...). Wonder how a diesel CUV or SUV would do? 

But the big thing is that car manufacturers are finally starting to push the MPG envelope with standard gas. Two years ago, 30 MPG was great and 35 MPG was hard to find. Fuel economy actually got worse for most models in the 00s! (e.g. I have a 99 Saturn that gets 35+ MPG but Saturn's last few years operating, their best was a 30 MPG eco model...).

I think there would be a big market for an AWD Diesel wagon. IIRC, the diesel VW Wagon outsells the regular engine model. Too bad Subaru doesn't make wagons any more, much less have a diesel one for the US market.....


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 23, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> For me, a Mazda6 wagon would be high on my list of desired cars to replace mine when that day comes.  Apparently they're hugely popular in Australia.
> 
> http://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2011-6_wagon/


Given your love of Hyundai, I'd be surprised if you didn't have the Elantra Touring in your top position if you are looking at wagons. Fully loaded for just over $20k and its more Euro wagon than US hatch. Way less than Mazda pricing and better fuel economy too. I scraped thoughts on WV's diesel wagon in favor of the Elantra Touring for my top choice for this summer when I get new wheels.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2011)

Most people I know who drive TDIs get around 50MPG with highway driving, 40ish around the city.

Gas engines have come along way in being tuned for Highway driving, but still lack in the city.  A new Hyundai Sonata gets 35mpg on the highway, but low 20s around town.  The Elantra 40mpg highway, 29 city.

So the differences are significant.  Does diesel offset the several thousand dollar premium you pay at purchase or the higher cost at the pump?  Probably not until you've eclipsed 100K miles on the vehicle.
I imagine they have a calculator somewhere on the internet to figure all that out.

One thing I have read is a diesel engine is a bit more fun to drive due to much higher low end torque.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Given your love of Hyundai, I'd be surprised if you didn't have the Elantra Touring in your top position if you are looking at wagons. Fully loaded for just over $20k and its more Euro wagon than US hatch. Way less than Mazda pricing and better fuel economy too. I scraped thoughts on WV's diesel wagon in favor of the Elantra Touring for my top choice for this summer when I get new wheels.



The Touring is most certainly on my radar, but not until the redesign with the new sedan engine that gets 40MPG highway.  That's not supposed to happen until 2012.

I do appreciate a certain amount of 'fun' factor to balance out economy though.  For the most part, Mazdas have a reputation of being more fun to drive.  My wife's Mazda3 certainly is a fun ride.  A Mazda6 wagon has more storage than an Elantra Touring.  I'd be willing to sacrifice a bit of fuel economy if it was more fun to drive and offered better utility.


----------



## riverc0il (Feb 23, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> The Touring is most certainly on my radar, but not until the redesign with the new sedan engine that gets 40MPG highway.  That's not supposed to happen until 2012.
> 
> I do appreciate a certain amount of 'fun' factor to balance out economy though.  For the most part, Mazdas have a reputation of being more fun to drive.  My wife's Mazda3 certainly is a fun ride.  A Mazda6 wagon has more storage than an Elantra Touring.  I'd be willing to sacrifice a bit of fuel economy if it was more fun to drive and offered better utility.


I wish a little more info was out there about what is happening in 2012. But I absolutely need a new car this year and can't wait, sadly. Could always trade up later, I guess.

Mazdas certainly have the fun to drive factor down. S test drove a Mazda5 at some point when we were looking at stuff last summer. Woo! Whoa! LOL. I probably would have enjoyed it but her not so much. For myself, I still like fuel economy and price over fun to drive. Too bad Mazda can't have their cake and eat it too. Otherwise they would have the best overall package out there. Right now I just don't see Mazdas as good value unless you need the fun factor more than anything else.

Whoa, hyjack. Sorry 'bout that! :lol:


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 23, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> I was jumping on the diesel band wagon a year or two ago... but not so much any more. Both Chevy and Ford now have regular gas cars that get 40 MPG. I think there is still a market for diesel in larger vehicles that can't get there (see the VW Jetta Wagon at just over 40 but is the premium really worth the extra 10ish MPG? Depends on what gas prices do...). Wonder how a diesel CUV or SUV would do?
> 
> But the big thing is that car manufacturers are finally starting to push the MPG envelope with standard gas. Two years ago, 30 MPG was great and 35 MPG was hard to find. Fuel economy actually got worse for most models in the 00s! (e.g. I have a 99 Saturn that gets 35+ MPG but Saturn's last few years operating, their best was a 30 MPG eco model...).
> 
> I think there would be a big market for an AWD Diesel wagon. IIRC, the diesel VW Wagon outsells the regular engine model. Too bad Subaru doesn't make wagons any more, much less have a diesel one for the US market.....



Being Subaru sales keep increasing year over year I think they may dissagree with you


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2011)

Next generation touring is supposed to be for 2013 model year with a late 2012 release.


----------



## Edd (Feb 23, 2011)

I all but decided on an Elantra Touring while car shopping last year but AWD plus a couple of minor considerations put me in a Forester.

At the time the Touring pricing was notably higher than the sedan partly because the Touring wasn't simply a wagon version of the sedan; there were significant differences.


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 23, 2011)

Edd said:


> I all but decided on an Elantra Touring while car shopping last year but AWD plus a couple of minor considerations put me in a Forester.
> 
> At the time the Touring pricing was notably higher than the sedan partly because the Touring wasn't simply a wagon version of the sedan; there were significant differences.



You're a wise man.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> Being Subaru sales keep increasing year over year I think they may dissagree with you





campgottagopee said:


> You're a wise man.



January 2011 unit sales

Subaru: 18,858

Hyundai: 37,214


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 23, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> January 2011 unit sales
> 
> Subaru: 18,858
> 
> Hyundai: 37,214



Uhm, what's that??

If you read what I wrote I said Subaru sales are increasing year over year. What does that have to do with Hyundai???


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> Uhm, what's that??
> 
> If you read what I wrote I said Subaru sales are increasing year over year. What does that have to do with Hyundai???



just messin'

and hey, you're the one who said Edd was a wise man for picking Subaru over Hyundai 


Truthfully, people can buy whatever they're happy with.  I wasn't happy with Subaru, have been delighted with my Hyundai.  YMMV


----------



## campgottagopee (Feb 23, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> just messin'
> 
> and hey, you're the one who said Edd was a wise man for picking Subaru over Hyundai
> 
> ...



Gotcha.

Edd is a wise man for making that choice 

Totally agree, peeps need to purchase whatever trips their trigger, afterall they're the ones that need to drive and pay for it.

Hyundai makes good cars, they just haven't arrived yet. I think they will but it will be a while. When I sit in meetings and we start talking about market share, Hyundai's name isn't even brought up.....it will be, but not just yet.


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## Grassi21 (Feb 23, 2011)

I picked up a 2011 Subaru Forester on Jan 11.  Loving it so far.  It has served me well on ski trips.  Most of my ski trips are driving in a storm or the morning after a storm to Sundown.  And most importantly, it is so much better on my 50 minutes commute than the Jeep Wrangler I have been driving for the last 2 or 3 years.


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## o3jeff (Feb 23, 2011)

Grassi21 said:


> I picked up a 2011 Subaru Forester on Jan 11.  Loving it so far.  It has served me well on ski trips.  Most of my ski trips are driving in a storm or the morning after a storm to Sundown.  And most importantly, it is so much better on my 50 minutes commute than the Jeep Wrangler I have been driving for the last 2 or 3 years.



Nice, I thought I spied one in on of your FB pics!


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## Grassi21 (Feb 23, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> Nice, I thought I spied one in on of your FB pics!



Sad to see the Jeep go.... but it just wasn't a practical vehicle for me anymore.  Someday I will have my Jeep beech buggy that I will keep at the Cape for the Summers.


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## campgottagopee (Feb 23, 2011)

Grassi21 said:


> I picked up a 2011 Subaru Forester on Jan 11.  Loving it so far.  It has served me well on ski trips.  Most of my ski trips are driving in a storm or the morning after a storm to Sundown.  And most importantly, it is so much better on my 50 minutes commute than the Jeep Wrangler I have been driving for the last 2 or 3 years.



Nice, Wranglers are cool tho....chick's dig 'em


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## Grassi21 (Feb 23, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> Nice, Wranglers are cool tho....chick's dig 'em



Yeah, the wife stopped digging the Wrangler when she didn't want ti put an infant car seat in the back.... times have changed... :-(


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## Glenn (Feb 23, 2011)

Grassi21 said:


> Yeah, the wife stopped digging the Wrangler when she didn't want ti put an infant car seat in the back.... times have changed... :-(



Look at it this way...you didn't end up with a minivan.


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## riverc0il (Feb 23, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> Being Subaru sales keep increasing year over year I think they may dissagree with you


Subaru made a great business decision capitalizing on the SUV/CUV market. Won't be long until their logo starts morphing into a Toyota symbol. Not expecting them to count their one loss with me (and other like minded folks) as any big loss compared to their huge gains with the soccer mom crowd. They are now "what makes a Subaru a Subaru." And I'm okay with that, won't see me in one though.


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## riverc0il (Feb 23, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> You're a wise man.


Wise men realize that snow tires are more important than AWD and you can live in snow country year round without AWD and never have problems with good snows. 

Like DHS, just messin'


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## roark (Feb 23, 2011)

heh, yup missed the Hyundai Accent with studded snows this winter- waaaay better than the (much heavier) Saab... There's a lot to be said for a light weight FWD car with good rubber!


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 23, 2011)

You guys driving the CRV do realize that when they were made they geared them towards women.. I dont know about the old ones but the 2011 even has a built in spot for her hand bag. That said I almost bought one 3 weeks ago...BUT...I decided to go with the jeep liberty. No doubt that the CRV is a good car though......even if a guy drives it :razz:


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## campgottagopee (Feb 24, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> Subaru made a great business decision capitalizing on the SUV/CUV market. Won't be long until their logo starts morphing into a Toyota symbol. Not expecting them to count their one loss with me (and other like minded folks) as any big loss compared to their huge gains with the soccer mom crowd. They are now "what makes a Subaru a Subaru." And I'm okay with that, won't see me in one though.



They really did. Back in 1995 Subie decided to drop their FWD cars and produce AWD only, that took brains and even more balls, look where they are now. Guess it really pays to concentrate on one thing and do it well. They'll never be a BIG car company but they sure are a good one.





riverc0il said:


> Wise men realize that snow tires are more important than AWD and you can live in snow country year round without AWD and never have problems with good snows.
> 
> Like DHS, just messin'



80% of the time I'd agree with you. I'm tellin' ya you come over to my house during a snow storm and you'll be walkin your FWD ass up my driveway :razz:. Without AWD/4WD and some ground clearance you wont make it, really. You'll also be walkin' back into deer camp, and that REALLY sucks. So all you FWD band wagon jumpers come on over, I'll be waiting inside sipping a cold one :beer:


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## riverc0il (Feb 24, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> 80% of the time I'd agree with you. I'm tellin' ya you come over to my house during a snow storm and you'll be walkin your FWD ass up my driveway :razz:. Without AWD/4WD and some ground clearance you wont make it, really. You'll also be walkin' back into deer camp, and that REALLY sucks. So all you FWD band wagon jumpers come on over, I'll be waiting inside sipping a cold one :beer:


There are totally times when AWD pays. If you have a really steep hill for a driveway or are truly going off roading in the snow, you need AWD. For 99% of skiers, even those of us that storm chase, its a luxury item only and not needed. I've been storm chasing for a while. The ONLY time I've had difficult drives or difficulty extracting my car were before I had snows. Otherwise, I have to do something pretty dumb with my car to think "I might have had a chance with AWD". Subbie's success has a lot to do with people's perceptions of what they "need" when they really don't. Some people do and that's cool. But Subbie would never have succeeded if only people that really needed AWD bought Subbie.


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## campgottagopee (Feb 24, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> There are totally times when AWD pays. If you have a really steep hill for a driveway or are truly going off roading in the snow, you need AWD. For 99% of skiers, even those of us that storm chase, its a luxury item only and not needed. I've been storm chasing for a while. The ONLY time I've had difficult drives or difficulty extracting my car were before I had snows. Otherwise, I have to do something pretty dumb with my car to think "I might have had a chance with AWD". Subbie's success has a lot to do with people's perceptions of what they "need" when they really don't. Some people do and that's cool. But Subbie would never have succeeded if only people that really needed AWD bought Subbie.



I hear ya, but Subies success is due to the fact the the cars they build are solid. 5 star crash rating across the board, ALG residule awards up the wazoo, back to back Motor Trend's SUV of the year awards (never done by ANY manufaturer be4), and so on. So I think it's a little more than perception:wink:


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## hammer (Feb 24, 2011)

FWIW I don't see a disproportionate share of AWD cars in Park City...

That said, I have owned AWD cars for many years and will continue to do so.  I've had enough situations on commutes where having all wheels available made a difference.  I'm normally too lazy/cheap to get a separate set of wheels and snows and if I do decide to get them then I'll be all the better for it.


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## mlctvt (Feb 24, 2011)

The best combination is AWD and Snow tires! That's what we run on our two Subaru wagons.  I'm sure tomorrow's drive north we'll be happy to have both. 

Many storms when its snowing we're in the left lane driviing 55+ . Anyone with all seasons is stuck in the right lane at a measly 35 MPH or so and the few that try to drive 55 usually end up in a ditch. This includes the SUV drivers on crappy tires. I can't count how many drivers we've seen slide off the left lane into the Jersey barriers or median. 
I agree with Riv  though it's definatley more the tires than AWD in most cases.


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## tjf67 (Feb 24, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> I hear ya, but Subies success is due to the fact the the cars they build are solid. 5 star crash rating across the board, ALG residule awards up the wazoo, back to back Motor Trend's SUV of the year awards (never done by ANY manufaturer be4), and so on. So I think it's a little more than perception:wink:




Don't forget the increase in the dike population.    Do you smerk when thet come in?


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## tjf67 (Feb 24, 2011)

mlctvt said:


> The best combination is AWD and Snow tires! That's what we run on our two Subaru wagons.  I'm sure tomorrow's drive north we'll be happy to have both.
> 
> Many storms when its snowing we're in the left lane driviing 55+ . Anyone with all seasons is stuck in the right lane at a measly 35 MPH or so and the few that try to drive 55 usually end up in a ditch. This includes the SUV drivers on crappy tires. I can't count how many drivers we've seen slide off the left lane into the Jersey barriers or median.
> I agree with Riv  though it's definatley more the tires than AWD in most cases.



I would say its the driver 100% of the time.  Know what your car can do and stay within its means.


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## Glenn (Feb 24, 2011)

Just a really random note here. In all my driving this winter, I didn't see any AWD or 4x4's stuck. The most common stuck vehicles; fwd minivans and fwd asian imports stuck on hills...or stuck getting into/out of an unplowed street.


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## campgottagopee (Feb 24, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> Don't forget the increase in the dike population.    Do you smerk when thet come in?



That was good, damn. You're on top of your game today, TJ.

To answer your question, yes.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 24, 2011)

Hey Camp,

What does a 90k service run at your dealership? 05 2.5 Outback.


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## campgottagopee (Feb 24, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Hey Camp,
> 
> What does a 90k service run at your dealership? 05 2.5 Outback.




We don't offer a 90k.

60k is 704.99
75k is 404.48
105k is 857.20

we can get you in anytime and if you need a loaner just let me know 8)


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## wa-loaf (Feb 24, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> We don't offer a 90k.
> 
> 60k is 704.99
> 75k is 404.48
> ...



Ha, well you're a little far for me. Just curious. My dealer wants me to come in for a 90k and it's gonna be around $500. Maybe I should just get the oil changed and have it looked over. Save my money for the 105k ... had the 60 and 75 done.


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## campgottagopee (Feb 24, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Ha, well you're a little far for me. Just curious. My dealer wants me to come in for a 90k and it's gonna be around $500. Maybe I should just get the oil changed and have it looked over. Save my money for the 105k ... had the 60 and 75 done.



With having the 60 and 75 already done you're good till 105k for sure.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 24, 2011)

campgottagopee said:


> With having the 60 and 75 already done you're good till 105k for sure.



Sweet, maybe I'll buy some skis instead. :idea:


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## campgottagopee (Feb 24, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Sweet, maybe I'll buy some skis instead. :idea:



I like the way you think :beer:


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## bigbog (Feb 25, 2011)

90k...HA!, it's still an infant.......  Do the preventive maintenance pro-actively and it'll go a long way.
Looks nice....


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## hammer (Feb 25, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Ha, well you're a little far for me. Just curious. My dealer wants me to come in for a 90k and it's gonna be around $500. Maybe I should just get the oil changed and have it looked over. Save my money for the 105k ... had the 60 and 75 done.


Does the car have a timing belt?  For many cars those usually need to be replaced at around 90K or so.  Not something you want to put off...


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## campgottagopee (Feb 25, 2011)

hammer said:


> Does the car have a timing belt?  For many cars those usually need to be replaced at around 90K or so.  Not something you want to put off...



T-belt change is part of the 105k


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## wa-loaf (Feb 25, 2011)

hammer said:


> Does the car have a timing belt?  For many cars those usually need to be replaced at around 90K or so.  Not something you want to put off...





campgottagopee said:


> T-belt change is part of the 105k



Mine was actually changed at 60k. They had it open for a small oil leak and saw it was slightly frayed. So got that and a few things fixed under warranty. Timing belt is good to 160k now.


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## skijay (Feb 25, 2011)

I have had my 2009 Forester for just about 2 yrs and 28,000 miles and have had zero issues with it.  I do have another car that is my daily driver for my long, long 12 mile commute each way to work.  The other is a car and gets between 35 and 40 mpg on my 10 mile highway and the final 2 miles @ 45mph.  The Forester is used mostly for Friday – Sunday or when we have inclement weather.  

Do I regret my purchase?  No
If I had to replace it would I buy another Forester? Yes

What I do not like about the 09-10  is:
1. 30K tune up for the EJ25 (new plugs, brake flush, etc)  and the timing belt
2. Passenger seat is uncomfortable for tall drivers
3. The 4 speed automatic is the worst transmission I have ever experienced. It searches too much for the correct gear. It does to much up, down, up, down shifting.  I drive in the manual shift mode most of the time. That is the saving grace for this dated 4 speed autobox.

What I love.
1.  Inexpensive to buy
2. Cheaper to insure than the 2003 Saturn VUE it replaced
3. Super easy DIY oil changes.  I even made it easier by using a K&N oil filter.
4. Reliable.  Isn’t that one of the reasons people buy these????
5. Great all around handling.  There is something to be said about the flat4 as it does make it fun to drive and it does stay firmly planted to the road.
6. This has AWD. Even though I drive it like I drive my FWD car without snow tires.  In other words I do not have the, "I have AWD and I own the road attitude", as some owners of AWD / 4WD vehicles tend to have.  I was so thankful NOT having to be towed out of Carinthia’s lot in April during mud season.  
7. Well put together. 
8. Fuel economy is decent.  I do get between 23 to 28 mpg.  The Saturn VUE did return the same fuel economy.  The VUE was also FWD with a  5 speed manual, a smaller 2.2 displacement motor with about 20 less hp and was at least 300 lbs lighter than the Forester it replaced.  
9. Longevity.  I’ve seen many mid 1990’s Legacy models in VT running around up there.  They may look a little beat up but they seem to be built to take the salt belt rather well.  That was another reason to purchase a Subaru.  


I am considering the purchase of the Subaru Gold plus warranty before the 3/36 expires.  I have been pricing them online.  If anybody knows where I can get a deal on one, PM me.


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## skijay (Jun 22, 2011)

I was asked to car shop with a friend and last Thursday she decided on a 2011 Honda CR-V LX and put a deposit on it and took delivery of it last night as they located it from one of their other out of state lots.

It was sad in a way.  She loved the 11 OB and the 11 Forester and was actually leaning toward the 11 Forester X Premium, BUT the 30, 60, 90, etc., maintenance costs scared her off.  That was the item that sealed the deal for the CR-V.


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## xwhaler (Jun 29, 2011)

Some good info in this thread....I'm going to be in the market for a CUV come Sept/Oct this year. Will be the wife's vehicle.....I currently drive an '08 Toyota Tacoma and she has an '06 Mazda 3. Both vehicles are paid off at this point. 

Plan is to keep the truck for general practicality purposes and towing. I have a lengthy daily commute (75 miles R/T) so will take the Mazda as a commuter and enjoy the 35 MPG vs the Tacoma's 23 MPG.

Our short list includes: Kia Sportage/Sorrento, Honda CR-V, possibly a Forrester.
I love Toyota's but find the RAV4 outdated looking and don't care for the side hinging tailgate which is heavy and takes up space when loading.

Seems you get a lot of options for the $$ with Kias and the 100k warranty is impressive. I also find the looks to be the best in the group. 
The CR-V is coming out with a re-design for 2012 but so far I haven't seen any photos of it.

Right now it's just the 2 of us and our dog but plan to add a little one within the next 2 years. That said cargo space for all the gear is a desire as is a comfortable ride for weekend ski trips.

Any here drive one of the newer Kias (2011) that has any feedback on them?


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## HD333 (Jun 29, 2011)

xwhaler said:


> Any here drive one of the newer Kias (2011) that has any feedback on them?



My Mom picked up a 2011 Kia Sorrento a few months ago to haul her grandkids around in, I was sceptical at first but it is a nice vehicle for the $.  They were looking at similar vehicles (CRV/Rav 4) and this was hands down the best value. It actually has a 3rd row that can be used in a pinch. Plus 100k warrenty.

Definitly need to go with the V6 in the Sorrento the 4cyl was way under powered. 

Kia seems to be stepping it up, I saw an Optima last night and thought it was an Infinity or Lexus until I got up close and saw the badging.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 29, 2011)

In terms of family sedans, I think the Optima is a pretty sweet looking ride.  It's a little long in the nose like the current Models of some Acura's are, but overall I think they did a great job.  If the turbo version of the Optima or the sister Hyundai Sonata were available in a MT, I'd most certainly buy one for my next ride.  

Going to be hard for me to switch brands from Hyundai due to how great the cost of ownership has been.  146K miles on my 07 Sonata and zero out of pocket expense outside of general maintenance.  Even the two things that broke during the warranty period around 90K miles (ABS sensor, power steering fluid pump) would have cost me less than $500 combined if I had to pay for it out of pocket.

solid cars


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