# Belleayre Resort will fail unless scaled back, Catskill Heritage Alliance(NY Catskil



## ScottySkis (Jul 31, 2014)

http://www.watershedpost.com/2014/b...s=798819416817390&fb_action_types=og.comments

I agree it to much and not fair.

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*

Above: A rendering of the planned hotel  and lodge buildings at Highmount -- part of the proposed Belleayre  Resort project -- from a supplemental draft environmental impact  statement released in April 2014 by the DEC.
  The Catskill Heritage Alliance,  a local environmental group that has long been critical of the proposed  Belleayre Resort project in Highmount, has released a study that claims  the resort will fail unless scaled back.
 The study, commissioned by Washington, D.C.-based firm Public and  Environmental Finance Associates, takes aim at another study  commissioned last year from national hotel consultants HVS by resort  developer Crossroads Ventures. In documents prepared in 2013 for the state's ongoing review of the project, Crossroads relied on the HVS study to make a case for the resort's financial viability and economic benefits to the region. 
 At the time, HVS issued a glowing review of the Belleayre project,  stating that if built, the resort would be "an extraordinary asset that  can reasonably be expected to gain recognition as one of the premier  destinations and vacation ownership communities in the world, and the  top-quality facility of this sort in the Northeastern United States."
 The Catskill Heritage Alliance now claims that HVS's study was flawed. In an analysis of the HVS study (embedded below), PEFA's Michael Siegel writes that Crossroads is "seeking to charge champagne prices  for a resort that is to be built on a beer budget," and relying on  grossly inflated estimates of the resort's potential revenue. 
 The PEFA study recommends that Crossroads build only the lower  portion of its two-part proposed development -- the "Wildacres" site --  and scrap plans to develop a hotel and lodge at the upper elevation  Highmount site. 
"A Wildacres-only scenario would be more  supportive of the regions’ existing communities and lodging sector. It  would reduce or eliminate adverse environmental impacts and allow the  State to focus its resources on improvements to the existing Belleayre  Mountain Ski Center," Siegel writes.
 Among the criticisms Siegel lobs at the HVS study is that it assumes  potential revenue for the Belleayre resort will be on par with the  revenue made by top-flight  five-star ski resorts in the Rocky Mountains. Compared to Belleayre,  the Rocky Mountain resorts have longer ski seasons, better terrain and  natural snow, proximity to commercial airports and interstate highways,  and are not dependent on the state government for upgrades to ski  centers, Siegel writes. 
 In a statement issued in response to the PEFA study, Belleayre  project coordinator Gary Gailes questioned PEFA's credentials and  expertise, and characterized the firm as an "anti-development consultant."
 "In response to the so-called economic analysis contracted by the  Catskill Heritage Alliance to support their longstanding opposition to  the Belleayre Resort project, I would only ask readers of this report to  compare the credentials of the internationally renowned consulting firms  of HVS, Inc and Ragatz Associates employed by Crossroads to evaluate  the economic viability of the project versus the firm of PEFA (an  anti-development consultant) hired by the financial backers of the  Catskill Heritage Alliance," Gailes wrote. "Perhaps if the Catskill  Heritage Alliance revealed the source of their funding to hire PEFA, one  might better understand the conclusions reached by PEFA."
The Catskill Heritage Alliance also commissioned a 2011 study from PEFA  that was critical of a plan to transfer the state-owned Belleayre Ski  Center, next to the proposed resort, from the state Department of  Environmental Conservation to the Olympic Regional Development Authority  (ORDA). That plan was put into action by the state legislature in 2012, and Belleayre is now under ORDA's management. 
 The state Department of Environmental Conservation is still working  to produce a final environmental impact statement for the Belleayre  Resort project, which will include analysis of its economic impact on  the region. Project developers expect that statement to be issued later this year. Once the environmental impact statement is complete, the project will go to local town planning boards for review.
_Below: PEFA's critical analysis of a study commissioned from HVS by Belleayre Resort developers Crossroads Ventures._


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## ScottySkis (Jul 31, 2014)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/235458964/PEFA-2014-Analysis-of-Belleayre-Resort
 Review of HVS’ 2013 “Feasibility Study and Sensitivity Analysis,Proposed Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park”
  Michael Siegel, Public and Environmental Finance Associates,July 10, 2014
  Summary
  This review of HVS’ updated feasibility analysis shows it to contain virtually all of the problemsfound in its earlier analysis, together with yet additional problems identified herein. Accordingly,HVS’s new analysis remains unreliable for decision-making purposes. Briefly,
  
  HVS’ analysis assumes the Applicant can charge champagne prices for a resort that is to be built on a beer budget. HVS’ revenue per available room (RevPar) reflects 5-star, top-of-market resorts in Aspen, Vail, Telluride, CO, Deer Valley, UT, and Jackson Hole, WY whileits inaccurate and incomplete construction estimate is commensurate with a mid- or lower-tier resort hotel. The difference is not trivial. As positioned by HVS, the constructionestimate upon which it evaluates feasibility is off by between about one-hundred to three-hundred million dollars.
  
  HVS’s analysis exhibits confusion and contradiction, opining the proposed resorts’ hotelelement 
  is not 
  economically practical without the detached units (HVS 2013, p. 9) while alsoconcluding the hotel element 
  is
   economically practical without them (HVS 2013, p. 77).These two conclusions are mutually exclusive. They are illustrative of other conflicts andcontradictions in HVS’ analysis.
  
  HVS’ failure to account for lucrative real estate product cash flows from more limited – butnot zero – sales of shared-ownership units is most consequential for the Wildacres-onlyscenario. The deterioration of this market enables a Wildacres-only scenario to capture aboutthe same level of real estate sales and cash flows as the Wildacres+Highmount scenario over a typical investment horizon. Had these cash flows been recognized they would have greatlyenhanced the feasibility of a Wildacres-only scenario.
  
  The proposed resort will not be developed as analyzed by HVS. Nor does there appear to beany obligation for the Applicant to do so. This is not conjecture. Confirming earlier comments, HVS’ new analysis indefinitely defers all of the proposed resort’s 206 detachedunits amounting to one-third of the 629 units proposed (HVS 2013, p. 8). The balance of the proposed Highmount element is also likely to be indefinitely deferred or abandoned.
  
  A smaller and less capital-intensive resort of perhaps 250 (+/-) units in the Wildacres areamay be feasible. At this scale it would increase the number of lodging units in the Route 28Corridor by about 80 percent. It would rank among the largest base area resorts in the Northeastern U.S. and exceed the size of all but one of HVS’ Rocky Mountain resort set
     For example, HVS’ 2008 Hotel Construction Cost Survey reported the average unit
  1
  construction cost of luxury and resort hotels to be substantially greater than that applied in itsanalyses. Later Surveys showed lower costs but explain this to be due to fewer higher-end luxuryand resort projects rather than lower costs thereof. Recent industry sources report average luxuryhotel developments to cost “$1.0 million a key”. See: Turner, S., “Despite Interest, Luxury
  Public and Environmental Finance AssociatesWashington, DC(202) 237-2455
  Page -2-
  
  A Wildacres-only scenario would save the State potentially tens of millions of dollars in public outlays to purchase and make improvements to the defunct Highmount ski area, andwould save BMSC $1.2 million in annual operating costs (Alpentech 2013, p. 15). AWildacres-only scenario would be more supportive of the regions’ existing communities andlodging sector. It would reduce or eliminate adverse environmental impacts and allow theState to focus its resources on improvements to the existing Belleayre Mountain Ski Center (BMSC).More specifically, HVS’ analysis:
  
  Relies upon construction costs well below that of other similar base area resorts,
  
  Does not include the construction cost of any similar resort,
  
  Does not determine the Applicant’s construction cost estimate to be within reason or supported by similar projects,
  
  Applies RevPar from top-tier world-class base area ski resorts that is not commensurate withthe relatively modest construction cost applied,
  
  Under-estimates departmental expenses,
  
  Contains internal contradictions and flawed logic,
  
  Fails to account for realized sales and related cash flows from more limited – but not zero – sales of the shared-ownership units,
  
  Shows RevPar for the Northeastern set of resorts to have deteriorated since 2008,
  
  Confirms the proposed resort will not have a significant international or national clientele.HVS’ analysis: a) applies sub-par and incomplete construction costs with, b) top-of-market RevPar from truly world-class 5-star Rocky Mountain resorts c) for which unit construction costs are abouttwo to three times that applied by HVS to determine the feasibility of the proposed Highmountelement. Additional error is introduced by, d) potentially under-estimating departmental expensesfor rooms, operations and maintenance, marketing, general and administration, and property tax.With respect to construction costs, it is significant that HVS omits its earlier statement that theestimate it applies to determine feasibility is “within reason” and supported by other “similar  projects”. The estimate applied (both then and now) is not within reason, and HVS proffers nosimilar projects consistent with its applied construction cost.The Applicant’s construction estimate was previously shown to be low by between about 20 to 30


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## ScottySkis (Jul 31, 2014)

Their a lot more 17 pages when you click on the links.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/235458964/PEFA-2014-Analysis-of-Belleayre-Resort

This is the last page:
 Conclusion
  As before, HVS has utilized improper, unrealistic, incomplete, and inconsistent assumptions for itsnew feasibility analysis. The new version evidences conflicting and contradictory statements, falselogic and bias. It relies upon an even lower unit construction cost than previously applied, anamount that was already unrealistically low. And, it may significantly under-estimate manydepartmental expenses. Notably, HVS omits an assurance that the construction costs applied are “within reason” andsupported by “similar” projects. When compared to reported construction costs of some of theRocky Mountain set, the unit cost applied by HVS is one-half to two-thirds lower. Consistent withearlier comments, HVS’ co-Consultant (Ragatz 2008) shows HVS to have omitted hundreds of millions of dollars from the estimated construction cost of the hotel elements.As before, HVS’ new analysis is critically flawed and unreliable for decision-making purposes.Rather than reflecting a realistic assessment of the proposed resort’s prospects, HVS’ analysisreflects confusion, contradiction, error, yield optimization and/or goal-seeking. On balance, HVS’ flawed analysis appears to favor the proposed resort, retaining its more problematic Highmount element, and all detached units. As documented in earlier comments, themarket for the detached units has collapsed, while this report shows the Highmount element wouldlikely fail HVS’ feasibility analysis were realistic construction costs, RevPar, departmental expense,and other factors herein considered. Rather than being necessary as HVS and the Applicant contend,were it to be built the Highmount resort elements’ failure could well-trigger that of the Wildacreselement.Subject to further analysis, it appears that a less capital-intensive and smaller-scale resort of about250 (+/-) overnight lodging units in the Wildacres area might be feasible when realistic factors areapplied and taking into account its ability to capture nearly as much cash flows from more limitedreal estate product sales as the Wildacres+Highmount scenario.At about 250 units, a more appropriately-scaled resort would rank among the largest base areadevelopments in the Northeastern region. It would increase the Route 28 corridors’ room count byabout 80 percent. And, it would maintain the viability of the existing lodging sector in the Route 28corridor along with the character of its existing communities, hamlets, and villages that aredependent thereon.Finally, a more appropriately-sized resort would enable the State to forego taxpayer-supportedoutlays to acquire the adjoining defunct Highmount ski area and avoid imposing additional operatingcosts on BMSC.


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## AdironRider (Jul 31, 2014)

So a bunch of NIMBY's project the project they don't want to succeed, won't succeed. 

The sky is blue isn't it! 



ScottySkis said:


> Their a lot more 17 pages when you click on the links.
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/235458964/PEFA-2014-Analysis-of-Belleayre-Resort
> 
> ...


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## 4aprice (Jul 31, 2014)

Anyone ever get any feed back on how sales of the Big 3 Pass went last season?  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## x10003q (Jul 31, 2014)

Wow. They criticize the developer's reports while presenting a completely confusing and nonsensical report themselves.

Here is my favorite paragraph:
"At about 250 units, a more appropriately-scaled resort would rank among the largest base area developments in the Northeastern region. It would increase the Route 28 corridors’ room count by about 80 percent. And, it would maintain the viability of the existing lodging sector in the Route 28corridor along with the character of its existing communities, hamlets, and villages that are dependent thereon."

Calling 250 units one of the largest base area developments in the Northeast region is simply incorrect. I guess they have never been to Stratton, Okemo, Killington, Sugarbush, Seven Springs, Mountain Creek, Holiday Valley, Hunter Mtn and Windham Mtn. :-o


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2014)

Way, way, way, too TLDR, but Belleayre Mountain will fail either way without government life support.

It should either be bought out by private equity and given a fair chance at life, or just go the way of the Dodo Bird, and 8 track tapes, phone books, etc....


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## drjeff (Aug 1, 2014)

x10003q said:


> Wow. They criticize the developer's reports while presenting a completely confusing and nonsensical report themselves.
> 
> Here is my favorite paragraph:
> "At about 250 units, a more appropriately-scaled resort would rank among the largest base area developments in the Northeastern region. It would increase the Route 28 corridors’ room count by about 80 percent. And, it would maintain the viability of the existing lodging sector in the Route 28corridor along with the character of its existing communities, hamlets, and villages that are dependent thereon."
> ...



I'm guessing they're playing some partisan massaging the numbers game here with this, such as when they refer to the "Northeastern Region" they consider New England to be it's own separate entity from the Northeast! ;-)  Kind of like when marketing departments make statements like "longest steepest widest" verses "longest, steepest, widest" to describe a trail  :lol:


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## catskills (Aug 1, 2014)

NY Casinos and  _Tappan_ Zee _Bridge _Bridge APPROVED with no problems here.  

Belleayre 4 Season resort waiting 10+ years for approval. :roll:


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## marcski (Aug 1, 2014)

catskills said:


> NY Casinos and  _Tappan_ Zee _Bridge _Bridge APPROVED with no problems here.
> 
> Belleayre 4 Season resort waiting 10+ years for approval. :roll:



Just no way to pay for the new TZB.  Not to mention any mass transit option.  Cuomo fumbled that ball big time.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 1, 2014)

4aprice said:


> Anyone ever get any feed back on how sales of the Big 3 Pass went last season?
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



I think their might be an answer here. http://www.scribd.com/doc/233383701/Audit-of-ORDA-by-NYS-Comptroller-Thomas-DiNapoli

Cash and Grant Management
The majority of ORDA’s operang revenue is earned in the last ve months of its scal year, from 
November through March. This along with ORDA’s lack of adequate cash reserves and need to 
borrow in ancipaon of grant funding cause it to borrow from a Line of Credit (LOC) to meet its nancial obligaons. For example, ORDA borrowed $900,000 from its LOC on February 1, 2013, to pay its annual State Rerement System bill. In addion, it borrowed $130,000 on October 25, 
2011, to cover its payroll costs. It borrowed another $100,000 for payroll on June 4, 2013, despite 
reporng that the 2013 ski season was highly successful. Given its cash situaon, ORDA relies on outside contribuons and loans to cover cash shortages. Consequently, ORDA’s outstanding LOC balance on June 18, 2013, was over $3.4 million, and it reported balances at the end of scal years 2007-08 through 2012-13 ranging from $2 million to almost $4.6 million. Because ORDA has connued to maintain LOC balances, it has incurred 
$531,518 in interest and fees between January 2008 and June 2013.
When discussing ORDA’s cash situaon, ORDA ocials indicated their organizaon is unlike most public authories because it has very cyclical revenue streams. They emphasized ORDA earns nearly 85 percent of its annual revenues over a ve-month period of winter business. They also 
indicated that revenues are largely dependent on uncontrollable factors such as weather and tourism trends. 
While many factors contribute to ORDA’s cash situaon, we believe management and the Board 
of Directors (Board) can take certain steps to improve ORDA’s cash and grant management, a


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## ScottySkis (Aug 1, 2014)

Another $123,781 is owed by ESDC for the construcon of the Lake Placid Convenon Center. We were advised this amount is not collecble, but ORDA has not wrien it o. The remaining 
$13,000 was charged to ESDC’s account but has not been paid. 
Further, ORDA should take more proacve collecon measures when it provides venue vouchers and ckets to area businesses to sell on its behalf. The businesses sell the vouchers and ckets at 
a discounted value and keep an agreed upon amount with the balance due to ORDA. In one case, 
Belleayre had an agreement with an area ski shop during scal 2012-13 to sell discounted ckets redeemable on specic days. Belleayre issued 1,500 cket vouchers to this ski shop, and ORDA received payment for only 1,173 ckets totaling $35,190. However, ORDA did not bill the shop unl aer the purchasers actually redeemed the ckets at Belleayre. ORDA did not require the ski shop to return the unsold ckets or to pay ORDA its share of ckets sold which may not have been used. Also, ORDA did not aempt to account for why 327 ckets were not redeemed. By 
not doing so, ORDA cannot determine whether the ski shop gave ORDA all the monies it collected 
for ckets that were purchased but never redeemed. ORDA should have a roune cyclical credit and collecon process where it determines whether accounts receivable are collecble, sends accounts for collecon where necessary, writes o uncollecble accounts, and determines whether to connue to extend credit to others. ORDA did not maintain evidence that sta had periodically reviewed whether accounts receivable were collecble. In response to our ndings, management indicated ORDA will implement a formal, documented quarterly review process to beer ensure it collects and properly classies past due accounts. Failing to take proacve measures to collect accounts receivable may contribute to ORDA not having sucient cash reserves to pay its bills.


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## Downhiller (Aug 1, 2014)

x10003q said:


> Wow. They criticize the developer's reports while presenting a completely confusing and nonsensical report themselves.
> 
> Here is my favorite paragraph:
> "At about 250 units, a more appropriately-scaled resort would rank among the largest base area developments in the Northeastern region. It would increase the Route 28 corridors’ room count by about 80 percent. And, it would maintain the viability of the existing lodging sector in the Route 28corridor along with the character of its existing communities, hamlets, and villages that are dependent thereon."
> ...



Hi, thanks for your comment.  The Belleayre Resort at Crossroads Park is a single resort development.  To clarify, the proposed Crossroads hotel/resort complex at Belleayre would be among the largest single resort developments in the Northeastern U.S.  This is what the report is referring to, a single resort development.

A resort area such as those you have mentioned consists of multiple individual resort developments.  

Of course resort areas of Stratton, Okemo, Killington et. al. have a larger total room count than the proposed Crossroads resort at Belleayre.  However, few of the individual resort hotel developments at these areas are larger than the Crossroads resort would be, which is the point being made.  Feasibility as in this instance is being assessed for an individual project, not an entire (multi-project) resort area.

For those who have followed this issue, HVS' analysis concerns an individual resort project (the Belleayre Resort).  HVS bases its feasibility analysis on other individual (and supposedly) comparable resorts.  It does not base its analysis on resort areas such as those you mention, and as such, neither does the review commissioned by CHA.  Virtually every comparable individual resort HVS references in the NE states and the Rockies is smaller than the proposed resort, most significantly so.  All of the 5-star resorts cited by HVS for which data is available show construction costs 2x to 3x greater than HVS assumes.  Yet HVS applies the higher RevPar from the Rocky Mountain 5-star resorts, which is much more than the RevPar of the comparable NE resorts it cites.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 1, 2014)

I'll translate the above post: Their "analysis" is complete crap.  Garbage in garbage out.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 1, 2014)

Downhiller said:


> Hi, thanks for your comment.  The Belleayre Resort at Crossroads Park is a single resort development.  To clarify, the proposed Crossroads hotel/resort complex at Belleayre would be among the largest single resort developments in the Northeastern U.S.  This is what the report is referring to, a single resort development.
> 
> A resort area such as those you have mentioned consists of multiple individual resort developments.
> 
> ...



All the Catskills hills that are still open today( 4 left used to be a lot more) will never have hotel stays on New England or the resorts out west because we have hills that get snow,rain and everything in between. The place out west and north vermont get a lot more snow and are bigger acres wise then any thing we have to offer down here.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 1, 2014)

ScottySkis said:


> All the Catskills hills that are still open today( 4 left used to be a lot more) will never have hotel stays on New England or the resorts out west because we have hills that get snow,rain and everything in between. The place out west and north vermont get a lot more snow and are bigger acres wise then any thing we have to offer down here.



Ah, I see that population density must be completely irrelevant.  My bad.  It's just as convenient for a resident of New York City to go to Aspen or Jay Peak, right?

And this explains why there are no decent hotels at Mountain Creek.  Who would want to stay in a nice resort hotel at ski area in New Jersey?  No way, no how!


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## marcski (Aug 1, 2014)

I don't think Scotty is so far off the mark.  I'm quite skeptical that a "build it and they will come" approach will work for Belleayre.  Especially here, where it seems that the plan is to build a hotel and resort first before building up the mountain's infrastructure.  Also, skiing (and boarding) are relatively stagnant with regard to growth. So, to even come close to the resort's projected total skier visit numbers, they are going to have to get weekend skiers away from Southern Vermont.  Now, unless you ae going to revitalize every town in the vicinity to suddenly become those "cute,  white church steepled New England towns" that offer shopping and other amenities the city slicker skier and non-skier family members want, it just isn't going to happen.  It's doomed for failure with NY taxpayers dollars going down with it. It seems to be State and public  funded private development.


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## JimG. (Aug 2, 2014)

marcski said:


> I don't think Scotty is so far off the mark.  I'm quite skeptical that a "build it and they will come" approach will work for Belleayre.  Especially here, where it seems that the plan is to build a hotel and resort first before building up the mountain's infrastructure.  Also, skiing (and boarding) are relatively stagnant with regard to growth. So, to even come close to the resort's projected total skier visit numbers, they are going to have to get weekend skiers away from Southern Vermont.  Now, unless you ae going to revitalize every town in the vicinity to suddenly become those "cute,  white church steepled New England towns" that offer shopping and other amenities the city slicker skier and non-skier family members want, it just isn't going to happen.  It's doomed for failure with NY taxpayers dollars going down with it. It seems to be State and public  funded private development.



Totally agree with one addition...the terrain at Belleayre is not world class. Anyone who thinks skiers will choose Belleayre over resorts out west or even VT or any other NE resort is delusional. 

If NY spends tax dollars on this every governmental official and every politician in NY should be lynched.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 2, 2014)

I don't think the issue is whether they will choose Belleayre over out west.  Not every consumer is deciding between the two each and every time.  

In any event, it appears that the consensus is against the project.  If Belleayre can't draw sufficient guests, the Balsams must be DOA.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 2, 2014)

Part of the problem is the base lodge in the middle of the hill. And another problem is the first 30%top of the hill is nice pitch then it gets flat as pancake (flatter then Okemo).

I mean it barley makes money now without any fancy stuff. Fancy stuff here will not work. Most of people I see the times I ski Route 28 Catskills mounts are not NYC people their are from Hudson valley and are locals. Their are deals out their to bring in locals for many years that were more then 50% less then average ticket would sell for at other 3Catskills hills.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2014)

marcski said:


> * I'm quite skeptical that a "build it and they will come" approach will work for Belleayre.* .........
> 
> *It's doomed for failure with NY taxpayers dollars going down with it.* It seems to be State and public  funded private development.



That's where you're wrong.  It's going to work PERFECTLY, it's just that you have the wrong goal and intent in mind. 

 It's going to work great as a taxpayer-funded handed to both the Unions and contractors that "support" the correct politicians.  The money from New Yorkers hard-earned paychecks will go down the toilet, but the Unions and campaign contributors will gobble it up - which is the REAL goal of this "project".    All you have to do is dupe naive New Yorkers into thinking it's a "revitalization" project that actually has a chance for success.



JimG. said:


> *Totally agree with one addition...the terrain at Belleayre is not world class. Anyone who thinks skiers will choose Belleayre over resorts out west or even VT or any other NE resort is delusional. *
> 
> If NY spends tax dollars on this every governmental official and every politician in NY should be lynched.



I don't even choose Belleayre over resorts 15 minutes down the road from Belleayre.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 2, 2014)

So why does Vernon Valley do so well?


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## ScottySkis (Aug 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So why does Vernon Valkey do so well?


 
Because it tje closes hill to NYC 45 kilee i think and lots and lots of buses. it easy to get to snd great for family.


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## Domeskier (Aug 2, 2014)

ScottySkis said:


> Because it tje closes hill to NYC 45 kilee i think and lots and lots of buses. it easy to get to snd great for family.



I thought it was the awesome cabriolet!


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## x10003q (Aug 2, 2014)

Downhiller said:


> Hi, thanks for your comment.  The Belleayre Resort at Crossroads Park is a single resort development.  To clarify, the proposed Crossroads hotel/resort complex at Belleayre would be among the largest single resort developments in the Northeastern U.S.  This is what the report is referring to, a single resort development.
> 
> A resort area such as those you have mentioned consists of multiple individual resort developments. Of course resort areas of Stratton, Okemo, Killington et. al. have a larger total room count than the proposed Crossroads resort at Belleayre.  However, few of the individual resort hotel developments at these areas are larger than the Crossroads resort would be, which is the point being made.  Feasibility as in this instance is being assessed for an individual project, not an entire (multi-project) resort area.



Calling this a single development resort is a distinction that has no meaning. The proposed Belleayre Resort will be done in phases just like all the other areas I mentioned.

The Wildacres section that you mention is 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. Your report clearly states that this would rank among the largest base areas in the Northeast. Here is the quote from page one of your report:

_" A smaller and less capital-intensive resort of perhaps 250 (+/-) units in the Wildacres areamay be feasible. At this scale it would increase the number of lodging units in the Route 28Corridor by about 80 percent. *It would rank among the largest base area resorts in the Northeastern U.S.* and exceed the size of all but one of HVS’ Rocky Mountain resort set."
_Italics and bold are mine

Calling a hotel of 250 units + 169 2br units one of the largest base area resorts in the Northeast is simply not true.
To repeat myself - I guess you have never been to Stratton, Okemo, Killington, Sugarbush, Seven Springs, Mountain Creek, Holiday Valley, Hunter Mtn and Windham Mtn. Since you said the Northeast we could also include Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Bretton Woods, Loon, Mt St Anne, Mt Tremblant, Stowe, Jay Peak, and Smugglers Notch.


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## JimG. (Aug 2, 2014)

Maybe they'll build a water/action park.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> So why does Vernon Valley do so well?



Does it?

The property has been bankrupt at least once previously.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 3, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does it?
> 
> The property has been bankrupt at least once previously.



Their is always a lot of people their on weekends.MY family had a townhouse their several years ago. Maybe part of the reason it has been bankrupt in the past is because when they use to use color coded tickets the security ppl would just call their boss and find out what color the tickets they were using for the day and hand them out this is fact.


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## catskills (Aug 4, 2014)

If its nice and people have a good time they WILL COME.   Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham were all built on the idea if you build it they will come.     

Most people that post here are expert double diamond type skiers.  You expert guys and gals are part of the 10% of all skiers club.  Most skiers are intermediates and never evers which fits Belleayre very nicely.   Will this new Belleayre Resort increase the number of people that ski?  I think it will.    Will Belleayre help increase the number of skiers and expert skiers that want to ski Hunter, Windham, Vermont and out west?  I believe it will.  

Hunter in the early days of 1960s and 1970s attracted many never ever skiers out of NY City, Long Island, and NJ.  When I ski out west I ask people where did you get started skiing and many tell me Hunter Mtn, Belleayre, Windham.  Some of the ski instructors out west have told me they got started in the Catskills and smaller hills in Southern NY.  

There is an extremely large pool of customers in and around New York City.   All you have to do is market to them and they will come.


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## Downhiller (Aug 29, 2014)

x10003q said:


> Calling this a single development resort is a distinction that has no meaning. The proposed Belleayre Resort will be done in phases just like all the other areas I mentioned.
> 
> The Wildacres section that you mention is 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. Your report clearly states that this would rank among the largest base areas in the Northeast. Here is the quote from page one of your report:
> 
> ...




Thanks.  The distinction is very meaningful, as is the proposed size.  Crossroads is seeking State permits for a 629 unit development that includes two hotels.  They've indefinitely deferred about 95 units.  The first phase is to now consist of 423 units per HVS' analysis.  That's what is proposed, and that's what Crossroads consultant (HVS) analyzed and submitted to DEC.  Crossroads seems rather reluctant to seek approval of anything less.

The 423 units per HVS's most recent analysis are to be located at BOTH the Wildacres and the Highmount area.  The hotel fractionals (which are attached or associated with each of the two hotels) are referred to as "Phase 1" (see HVS, p. 75).  Meaning that Phase 1 is to consist of 423 units, of which 250 are to located at Wildacres. 

Few if any other NE base-area resort hotel developments of this size exist (be it 423 or 629 units), phased or otherwise, which is the point being made.

Perhaps the use of the term "resort" is causing some confusion.  To clarify, the analysis concerns itself with the feasibility of an individual resort development, not a resort AREA (such as Stratton, Killington, Okemo, etc).  The  term comes from Crossroads and its Consultants, who refer to the development as the Belleayre Resort, or the Crossroads Resort at Belleayre Park, for example its web site:  

http://www.belleayreresort.com/

HVS' feasibility study is for a base-area resort hotel development, as is the review of HVS' feasibility study.  So when the Applicant, its consultant and others refer to the project as a "resort", this is what is being referred to.  They are not referring to a resort AREA (e.g., Stratton, Killington, Okemo).

The key assumptions in HVS' recent feasibility analysis have been shown to be baseless.  The resort will not generate top-line RevPar consistent with 5-star Rocky Mountain resorts, particularly if it is built consistent with the low-budget construction cost applied by HVS.  Rather, it will tend to reflect RevPar of similar NE resorts, which is substantially less as documented by HVS.  HVS also omits $100 million or more of construction costs.  This is confirmed by actual reported construction costs of Rocky Mountain resorts, two recently constructed NE resorts, industry trade reports, and by two of HVS' SDEIS co-Consultants, Ragatz, and AKRF.  Ragatz, in particular, shows HVS to have used grossly under-estimated construction costs.


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## goldsbar (Aug 31, 2014)

How has that resort at Hunter done (this is a question, I really don't know)?


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## legalskier (Aug 31, 2014)

_*Finish line in sight for long-planned Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park*

__HIGHMOUNT >> After 14 years of proposals, revisions and reviews, the finish line is appears to be in sight for the Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park...._

www.dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20140624/finish-line-in-sight-for-long-planned-belleayre-resort-at-catskill-park


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2014)

> *Full construction is expected to take up to eight years because  Crossroads is barred from disturbing more than 5 acres at a time.*



Yeah, you have fun with that = LULZ.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 1, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, you have fun with that = LULZ.



Watch now NY state change this law for them.


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## marcski (Sep 1, 2014)

"The resort, projected to cost $365 million to built, will surround the state-owned Belleayre Mountain Ski Center. The resort is to occupy 218 acres and comprise two hotels: the Wildacres Resort, with an 18 hole championship golf course designed by Davis Love III; and the more upscale Highmount Spa."

Seems like a whole hell of a lot on 218 acres for only 365 mil.  2 hotels, a resort with a championship golf course and an upscale spa?


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## millerm277 (Sep 1, 2014)

catskills said:


> If its nice and people have a good time they WILL COME.   Belleayre, Hunter, and Windham were all built on the idea if you build it they will come.
> 
> Most people that post here are expert double diamond type skiers.  You expert guys and gals are part of the 10% of all skiers club.  Most skiers are intermediates and never evers which fits Belleayre very nicely.   Will this new Belleayre Resort increase the number of people that ski?  I think it will.    Will Belleayre help increase the number of skiers and expert skiers that want to ski Hunter, Windham, Vermont and out west?  I believe it will.
> 
> ...



I'm going to disagree there. Belleayre has a number of problems unique to it that make it significantly less appealing than most Catskill areas or even some of the Poconos.

You can't get that much vertical off most of the runs. Tomahawk is ~900vf, Superchief is ~1150vf, Chair 3 is ~750vf.

Hunter is ~1475vf on the main face and ~1300vf on the West Side. Windham's East Side is ~1050vf and the West Side is ~1300vf. That's a big difference in terms of how long of a run I get.

And Superchief gets into the many issues with Belleayre's design/layout. Superchief's vertical is somewhat a lie, because it's not much fun to lap. Almost every trail is a nearly-straight cut right down the mountain without much character, which makes it rather boring after a day.

In short, I find Belleayre skis like a slightly taller Elk than it does Hunter/Windham, and that's not a positive attribute.

I think it's much less attractive than Hunter/Windham are to potential buyers, and I don't think it can support anywhere near the same scale of base development.


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## ScottySkis (Sep 1, 2014)

millerm277 said:


> I'm going to disagree there. Belleayre has a number of problems unique to it that make it significantly less appealing than most Catskill areas or even some of the Poconos.
> 
> You can't get that much vertical off most of the runs. Tomahawk is ~900vf, Superchief is ~1150vf, Chair 3 is ~750vf.
> 
> ...



+1 You totalled nailed it. The lodge in the middle of the hill really really hurts it to.


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## catskillman (Sep 3, 2014)

goldsbar said:


> How has that resort at Hunter done (this is a question, I really don't know)?


I hear it is almost always sold out.  Friends that bought a share are making money on it, collecting $ for doing nothing.  Apparently the wedding business is huge now.  And they get a lot from that zipline.  That is almost always sold out, even in the winter.


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## legalskier (Sep 18, 2014)

_*Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park on verge of final approval*_
_The state Department of Environmental Conservation has completed its review of the proposed Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park and is expected to issue the necessary permits for the project to be built....
_
dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20140916/belleayre-resort-at-catskill-park-on-verge-of-final-approval

..............................................................................

_The staff of the NYS Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC), the state agency that decides what environmental impacts might result from the construction and operation of the resort, have declared that there are no significant or substantive issues that would cause the DEC to deny permission for the project to be built....

_www.belleayreresort.com/SupportComments.htm


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## Mapnut (Sep 19, 2014)

millerm277 said:


> I'm going to disagree there. Belleayre has a number of problems unique to it that make it significantly less appealing than most Catskill areas or even some of the Poconos.
> 
> You can't get that much vertical off most of the runs. Tomahawk is ~900vf, Superchief is ~1150vf, Chair 3 is ~750vf.



Not to mention that the 6-8 runs off the Superchief funnel down into only two flat runouts the last 350 vertical feet. Tomahawk is better. The plans I've seen for new lifts (except the one in Highmount) include even longer flat runouts.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2014)

legalskier said:


> _*Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park on verge of final approval*_
> _The state Department of Environmental Conservation has completed its review of the proposed Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park and is expected to issue the necessary permits for the project to be built....
> _



If someone doesn't step in quick here and halt this nonsense, millions of dollars of New York State resident's paycheck dollars are going to be flushed down the toilet.


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## JimG. (Sep 19, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> If someone doesn't step in quick here and halt this nonsense, millions of dollars of New York State resident's paycheck dollars are going to be flushed down the toilet.



More reason to stop working and retire ASAP!

I find it amazing that a die hard skier like myself would be so vehemently opposed to state run ski area development in my state. What a total waste of money.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2014)

JimG. said:


> I find it amazing that a die hard skier like myself would be so vehemently opposed to state run ski area development in my state. *
> What a total waste of money.*



Don't worry; it's not like New York State's debt per resident is already among the worst in America.

Oh.........wait........


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## legalskier (Sep 19, 2014)

BG isn't from NY and is against it. I'm not from NY and I'm for it.
I guess we cancel out.

You must be thrilled with all the improvements ORDA is making:



_The Overlook Lodge cafeteria project is well under way. The cafeteria will be getting a new look as the area will be completely renovated.  This will help reduce lines, bottlenecks and have better flow._​
_Extensive snowmaking upgrades have started - including a three "zone" water line segregation and adding 25 new Sky Giant Flanged Heads for our snowguns. Both upgrades will allow us to put our low energy snowguns at the top of the mountain._​
_New electric Cameron Turbo Air 3000 compressor._​
_New Piston Bully PB400 winch cat._​
_New fully responsive and adaptive website (to be launched late November)._​
_New ecommerce store._​
_A New 120' x 50' structure will be built in the lower area and will be the new home of the rental shop._​
_Kidscamp will be moving to the old rental shop - this move will more than double the inside area of the Kids Zone and will be used for seating and registration._​
_More seating was added in the Overlook Lodge next to the administration office._​
_The Discovery Lodge restroom will be completely remodeled and new tile, flooring, stalls and fixtures will be added._​
_Electrical upgrades.

_http://www.belleayre.com/promotions/what's new.htm​


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2014)

legalskier said:


> BG isn't from NY and is against it. I'm not from NY and I'm for it.
> I guess we cancel out.
> 
> You must be thrilled with all the improvements ORDA is making:
> ...



I'm pretty ambivalent about the above actually.

By the way, how much did the above cost, can you post that?


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## ScottySkis (Sep 19, 2014)

It just Bell is grttung all this money inveeted dies anyone really think it oay off in 10 years i wish i could say yes. Put the 4 hills that are still open in the Cats together and still hard to phatom this money paying off in the long end.


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## RuhiRants (Sep 19, 2014)

I live in Pine Hill, just moved here after buying a house a few months ago... This will be great for the area... Jobs, new business, and more tourism... Most of the project is privately funded... The land is being given, which the taxpayer owns, but so what... Improvements to Belleayre are what we are on the hook for, and more trails, better facilities is what it will cover. I'm good with that. It's my home Hill, and I can't wait...


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## legalskier (Sep 19, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> By the way, how much did the above cost, can you post that?



If memory serves, I read many months ago that ORDA was divvying up something like $5M among the three areas but Belleayre would receive the smallest portion (because it's the smallest hill I suppose). I believe Belle was allotted $1M. 



RuhiRants said:


> I live in Pine Hill, just moved here after buying a house a few months ago... This will be great for the area... Jobs, new business, and more tourism... Most of the project is privately funded... The land is being given, which the taxpayer owns, but so what... Improvements to Belleayre are what we are on the hook for, and more trails, better facilities is what it will cover. I'm good with that. It's my home Hill, and I can't wait...



The jobs definitely will help but I'm stoked because this project will finally pull Highmount out of NELSAP. There's some sweet terrain over there. I'm also glad that the original plans were scaled back to be more environmentally responsible.



ScottySkis said:


> It just Bell is grttung all this money inveeted dies anyone really think it oay off in 10 years i wish i could say yes. Put the 4 hills that are still open in the Cats together and still hard to phatom this money paying off in the long end.



Only time will tell, Scotty. The developer does have a track record of success with other projects like the Emerson in Mt Tremper, where VP Biden recently stayed to attend his nephew's wedding. 
www.watershedpost.com/2014/joe-biden-attended-nephews-woodsy-wedding-emerson-resort


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## 4aprice (Sep 20, 2014)

Makes perfect sense to me that Belleayre should expand west and absorb the old Highmount ski area the same way Cannon has Mitt.  If they are going to run a ski area(s) should have done it when Highmount closed 10+ years ago. I'm much more for the rescue of an abandoned area then the cutting of new terrain on the east side.  Bell is not huge vert but is a good ridge with nice elevation, pretty good snow, and some fun bump runs, not sure it would ever be more then a day area though.  I'm not a huge fan of government run anything and won't get into my thoughts on NYS. 

Alex 

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## JimG. (Sep 20, 2014)

RuhiRants said:


> I live in Pine Hill, just moved here after buying a house a few months ago... This will be great for the area... Jobs, new business, and more tourism... Most of the project is privately funded... The land is being given, which the taxpayer owns, but so what... Improvements to Belleayre are what we are on the hook for, and more trails, better facilities is what it will cover. I'm good with that. It's my home Hill, and I can't wait...



I understand your enthusiasm. These developments always tout the local economic benefits. 

It is far from certain what the overall economic impacts will be.  

I do not think a project of this size will pay for itself quickly in whatever currency the people marketing it are using to make it attractive. I am a Hunter passholder. I ski Belleayre 2-3 times per year for some variety. I watched Hunter build their time share hotel and sell it out and then pay off the mortgage roughly 120 days after it opened. The Kaatskill mountain club has been relatively pure profit since. That's the way to invest in ski area development in the Catskills.

That's not going to happen at Belleayre IMO, not quickly.


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## x10003q (Sep 20, 2014)

If Camelback feels it can add 453 units to a ski area that already has 309 units on the mountain and many more units within 5 miles, I think Belleayre will be able to support the first phase - 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. I realize that Camelback is adding a huge indoor waterpark, but the mountain is only 166 acres of skiing on 800 vertical feet. Belleayre is currently171 acres on 1400 vertical feet(upper mountain is around 1000vf) and adding Highmount would take the acreage to around 220 acres. 

Hunter quickly selling out its time share hotel and paying off the mortgage in 120 days is another example that there is demand for slopeside lodging in the Catskills. The proximity to the NYC metro is a huge driving force.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2014)

JimG. said:


> *I understand your enthusiasm. These developments always tout the local economic benefits.
> 
> It is far from certain what the overall economic impacts will be.  *
> 
> I do not think a project of this size will pay for itself quickly in whatever currency the people marketing it are using to make it attractive.



And it's always far rosier than the reality, because they need to lie to get the shovels into the ground in the first place.



x10003q said:


> *If Camelback feels it can add 453 units* to a ski area that already has 309 units on the mountain and many more units within 5 miles, I think Belleayre will be able to support the first phase - 250 hotel units and 169 2 br fractional share units. I realize that Camelback is adding a huge indoor waterpark, but the mountain is only 166 acres of skiing on 800 vertical feet. Belleayre is currently171 acres on 1400 vertical feet(upper mountain is around 1000vf) and adding Highmount would take the acreage to around 220 acres.



This above seems kindof crazy to me, but we'll see if they have success or not.  But one thing Camelback does have to it's advantage is that it's just under 1.5 hours from NYC, in a relatively traffic-free straight shot.  

Belleayre from NYC is about a full hour further than that, about 2.5 hours, which is significant - and you're more apt to encounter "problems" from NYC to points north than you are from NYC to points west.

But regardless of whether Camelback succeeds or fails, they will do so with private money.  Belleayre will do so with the aid of tens-of-millions of dollars from people's paychecks.  That's a big part of the rub.


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## x10003q (Sep 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This above seems kindof crazy to me, but we'll see if they have success or not.  But one thing Camelback does have to it's advantage is that it's just under 1.5 hours from NYC, in a relatively traffic-free straight shot.



Driving to Camelback through the Delaware Water Gap on Rt 80 sucks on the NJ side and really sucks though East Stroudsburg  on the PA side. There is no way it is 1.5 hours from Manhattan. It is closer to 2 hours. 



BenedictGomez said:


> Belleayre from NYC is about a full hour further than that, about 2.5 hours, which is significant - and you're more apt to encounter "problems" from NYC to points north than you are from NYC to points west.



For an extra 30 minutes (not an hour) you get way better terrain and snow, way less crowds and the option of Plattekill up the road. Getting into NYC sucks no matter where you come from. I lived there for many years. 




BenedictGomez said:


> But regardless of whether Camelback succeeds or fails, they will do so with private money.  Belleayre will do so with the aid of tens-of-millions of dollars from people's paychecks.  That's a big part of the rub.



Your constant commentary about NYS money is boring and meaningless. NYS cannot sell or lease the area. Should NYS never spend money on an important asset?  So far they have failed to even maintain Belleayre, let alone spend the tens of millions you mention. Maybe if they had spent some money the place would be doing better.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

Outside of visiting a duck farm when I was selling meat, I've spent no time in the Catskills.  I found the area incredibly beautiful.  It really surprises me that the Catskills aren't a mecca for tourism with their proximity to NYC, the most populous and wealthiest city in the country.  It's two hours from the city, yet NYC folk seem to prefer driving further to the Berkshires or Green Mountains. 

I don't get it.

Yahoo actually had a photo expo today about all the now defunct grand vacation spots that used to exist in the Catskills.  

https://www.yahoo.com/travel/a-look-at-the-abandoned-c1410371850151.html


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 20, 2014)

Maybe something about just getting out of the state? A certain "quaintness" to Vermont?


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## 4aprice (Sep 20, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> This above seems kind of crazy to me, but we'll see if they have success or not.  But one thing Camelback does have to it's advantage is that it's just under 1.5 hours from NYC, in a relatively traffic-free straight shot.



Oh, I think the hotel will do well and year round too.  The waterpark really draws well in the summer.  Can the mountain handle the extra traffic is another question. Pocono's definitely get more traffic then the Catskills especially from people who live south of NYC.  There's a very healthy weekend scene there during ski season.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## 4aprice (Sep 20, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Outside of visiting a duck farm when I was selling meat, I've spent no time in the Catskills.  I found the area incredibly beautiful.  It really surprises me that the Catskills aren't a mecca for tourism with their proximity to NYC, the most populous and wealthiest city in the country.  It's two hours from the city, yet NYC folk seem to prefer driving further to the Berkshires or Green Mountains.
> 
> I don't get it.
> 
> ...



New York squashes anything that try's to get going there.  

Alex


Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## deadheadskier (Sep 20, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Maybe something about just getting out of the state? A certain "quaintness" to Vermont?



Maybe.  I have no idea as I'm not a New York City area resident.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2014)

x10003q said:


> Driving to Camelback through the Delaware Water Gap on Rt 80 sucks on the NJ side and really sucks though East Stroudsburg  on the PA side. *There is no way it is 1.5 hours from Manhattan. It is closer to 2 hours.
> *



  I lived in Manhattan for a decade until last year; it's 1.5 hours to the Poconos on the nut.    

This, of course, assumes it doesnt take you 17 years just to get out of the city, but that can happen whether you're heading West (Poconos) or North (Cats).



x10003q said:


> *For an extra 30 minutes (not an hour) you get way better terrain and snow, way less crowds and the option of Plattekill up the road*.



There's something extraordinarily important that you're completely discounting.  The average NYC Pocono skier generally doesn't give a ratz behind about the above things you mention.  Camelback and Belleayre don't cater to hard-core skiers longing for challenging black diamond runs.   Lets face it, if they were serious skiers they probably wouldn't be skiing in the Poconos to begin with.  And if you're a serious skier heading to the Cats, you'd likely hit any of the other 3 options rather than skiing Belleayre.  



x10003q said:


> Your constant commentary about NYS money is boring and meaningless. NYS cannot sell or lease the area. Should NYS never spend money on an important asset?  So far they have failed to even maintain Belleayre, let alone spend the tens of millions you mention. *Maybe if they had spent some money the place would be doing better.*



Maybe if the government got out of the way and didnt run ski areas they'd be doing better?   Maybe if the NY State run ski areas didnt have some of the highest operating expenses in the industry, completely fueled by the fact it's government run, they'd be doing better?   I guarantee you Gore would do better.  Belleayre loses money year-after-year, and invokes unfair anti-competitive practices against the other privately run ski areas in the Cats, but sure, lets parachute big bags of money in on top of it.  That's the cure-all.  Did you read the independent audit that recently came out?  It's 1-part financial horror story, 1-part trainwreck, and 1-part you just have to laugh.



deadheadskier said:


> I've spent no time in the Catskills.  I found the area incredibly beautiful. * It really surprises me that the Catskills aren't a mecca for tourism with their proximity to NYC*, the most populous and wealthiest city in the country.*  It's two hours from the city, yet NYC folk seem to prefer driving further to the Berkshires or Green Mountains. *



 The Catskills thrived in the 50s and 60s; I don't know what happened to make it's dominance so dramatically die off, but I'm sure some of the local posters could explain.  My guess is the Eisenhower Highway System was a big factor, making it easier to get farther from NYC, but that's just a guess.  That said, the Cats are still hugely popular for folks from the city, but I know what you mean.


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## legalskier (Sep 21, 2014)

x10003q said:


> For an extra 30 minutes (not an hour) you get way better terrain and snow, way less crowds and the option of Plattekill up the road.



I only agree with you about the crowds.  As far as snow quality goes, Platty's issues are well known.  Terrain is in the eye of the beholder- Platty's steeps are more sustained, but those who knock Belle's terrain aren't bothering to look too hard, imho. Lots of cool stashes there. The resurrection of Highmount will add more sustained steeps.


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## x10003q (Sep 21, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's something extraordinarily important that you're completely discounting.  The average NYC Pocono skier generally doesn't give a ratz behind about the above things you mention.  Camelback and Belleayre don't cater to hard-core skiers longing for challenging black diamond runs.   Lets face it, if they were serious skiers they probably wouldn't be skiing in the Poconos to begin with.  And if you're a serious skier heading to the Cats, you'd likely hit any of the other 3 options rather than skiing Belleayre.



I used Camelback because I think that people who ski Camelback would like Belleayre. 




BenedictGomez said:


> Maybe if the government got out of the way and didnt run ski areas they'd be doing better?   Maybe if the NY State run ski areas didnt have some of the highest operating expenses in the industry, completely fueled by the fact it's government run, they'd be doing better?   I guarantee you Gore would do better.  Belleayre loses money year-after-year, and invokes unfair anti-competitive practices against the other privately run ski areas in the Cats, but sure, lets parachute big bags of money in on top of it.  That's the cure-all.  Did you read the independent audit that recently came out?  It's 1-part financial horror story, 1-part trainwreck, and 1-part you just have to laugh.



I don't disagree with you about state ownership, but the reality is NYS is running ski areas and that is not going to change in the near future. You still avoid saying what they should do in light of the existing situation.

I would love to see where your info comes from about NYS's ski areas have the "highest operating expenses in the industry". Gore and WF run very lean operations. Belleayre had crazy expenses when it was run by the DEC.  Now that ORDA is running it I know that expenses are way down. 




BenedictGomez said:


> The Catskills thrived in the 50s and 60s; I don't know what happened to make it's dominance so dramatically die off, but I'm sure some of the local posters could explain.  My guess is the Eisenhower Highway System was a big factor, making it easier to get farther from NYC, but that's just a guess.  That said, the Cats are still hugely popular for folks from the city, but I know what you mean.



Some of the problems in the Catskills have to do with the Forever Wild designation inside the Catskill Park and the huge land ownership that belongs to NYS (40%) and the NYC watershed (5%). The Belleayre project has been under review of some sort for 14 years. One rumor I have heard  - Hunter was willing to trade 10,000 acres inside the park to gain access to the top of Hunter Mtn (and add maybe 100 acres) and this was rejected by the DEC. The DEC is not allowed to sell or trade forever wild land. I have also heard that Hunter had a history of not playing nice with the DEC.

Maybe if Princeton Ski Bowl/Bearpen Mountain had ever developed into a major resort, maybe the Catskills would have a much bigger ski industry.
http://mag.nyskiblog.com/Bearpen-Mountain-NY-The-Original-Beast-of-the-East-td2551736.html


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