# I91 and heroine addiction



## gladerider (Nov 15, 2014)

was watching anthony bourdain on cnn last nite. in the episode he was interviewing some folks in MA and NH about the seriousness of heroine addiction along I91. they were saying the problem is very serious. they specifically pointed out the middle class towns along I91, i was some what shocked. is this true?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2014)

Its a problem everywhere.  Portsmouth NH is an upper class near us, I think there has been 3 overdose deaths in the last two months alone.

I blame doctors. Too many scripts for opiate based pain killers resulting in people getting hooked.


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## snoseek (Nov 15, 2014)

Also, 495. It all starts from meds, pills and as it gets expensive moves to powder. I'm in F&B and deal with this shit constantly....heroine is huge in the Northeast. Rural northern Me,nh, and VT are no exception. Out here im told coke is making a strong comeback, was lots floating around last winter for sure.

Throw your meds out after needed.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 15, 2014)

In a word, Yep.  

Real epidemic in Vermont.  I think it is a symptom of other problems though.


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## bigbog (Nov 15, 2014)

Since 1990s+/-?.......often just covered over by better economic times outside the big cities.....
Think I-91 in VT is trivializing it to a given locale..y/n?


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## from_the_NEK (Nov 15, 2014)

You wouldn't believe the lines at the methadone clinic in St Johnsbury. Been a problem in this area for a long time.


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## octopus (Nov 16, 2014)

i was born and raised in falmouth ma, its a big problem on the cape too.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2014)

from_the_NEK said:


> You wouldn't believe the lines at the methadone clinic in St Johnsbury. Been a problem in this area for a long time.



So sad


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## gladerider (Nov 16, 2014)

this is unbelievable. i feel like i've been living under a rock or something. 
i wonder if this is unique to NE or common across the country. i did see another show that said utah had the similar problem. 
living in suburban NJ, i don't the problem is that serious here. this is sad.


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## snoseek (Nov 16, 2014)

gladerider said:


> this is unbelievable. i feel like i've been living under a rock or something.
> i wonder if this is unique to NE or common across the country. i did see another show that said utah had the similar problem.
> living in suburban NJ, i don't the problem is that serious here. this is sad.



It's all around, every state, region and demographic. It's just particularly bad in the Northeast, not a new problem. not sure the solution but could see treating users as sick people and less like criminals to start. Rehab is $$$$. I've worked with so many people that took the slide, from poppin pills, to snorting them and eventually when it gets too expensive and habit worsens heroin as its Cheaper. Sometimes it starts out as a prescription for an injury, some people are just wired like that.


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## twinplanx (Nov 16, 2014)

I lived in Ludlow, VT about 10 years ago. I was shocked at stories of people running down to NYC to pick up dope. :-(

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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Its a problem everywhere.  Portsmouth NH is an upper class near us, I think there has been 3 overdose deaths in the last two months alone.
> 
> I blame doctors. Too many scripts for opiate based pain killers resulting in people getting hooked.



missed this article in the paper last week; several local heroin / oxy dealers were arrested

http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20141113/NEWS/141119534

That helps, but I still think a greater focus needs to be placed on doctors over prescribing opiate based pain relievers.  4 out of 5 new heroin users started by using drugs like oxycontin first

http://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/DR006/DR006/nonmedical-pain-reliever-use-2013.htm

As some know, my elderly neighbor recently had surgery around Christmas last year that put her into a rehab facility for five months.  My wife and I cared for her dogs and affairs as she basically has no family.  When she finally came home, the amount of Oxy's given to her (by a NH State run rehab facility) was shocking.  She didn't even need them and there was enough supply to keep her looped for months.  She eventually had a VNA take them all away.  Hopefully that woman was honest and disposed of them.  If you read the arrest article above, one of the drug arrests was a 78 year old man selling oxys.  Probably a very similar situation and he found out how much money he could make by reading about it online. 

Somehow regulations need to be changed so that docs are more responsible with the scripts they write.  Shorter duration and lesser amounts of the drugs would be a start.


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## HD333 (Nov 17, 2014)

I saw that Bourdain show it was eye opening.

Dr's were told that opiates like Oxy were not habit forming (by the drug makers of course), as result they handed them out like candy.  Now you see "regular" people who can no longer get their Oxy prescriptions filled turning to heroin.  Crazy.


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## 4aprice (Nov 17, 2014)

gladerider said:


> living in suburban NJ, i don't the problem is that serious here. this is sad.



What?  Its a big problem here.  Thank god my kids avoided it.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## snoseek (Nov 17, 2014)

the sad part is if I was actually in pain right now it would be easier, cheaper and way faster to get them from a sketchy dude than a doctor or dentist and that's coming from someone that is a light to moderate drinker and weed smoker. Pills are easy as hell to find on the street....how the hell does large quantities like this get there? I never understood that. I mean weed, coke, mushrooms ect are all grown/produced exclusively via the black market but pills make that switch over along the line.


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## twinplanx (Nov 17, 2014)

HD333 said:


> I saw that Bourdain show it was eye opening.
> 
> Dr's were told that opiates like Oxy were not habit forming (by the drug makers of course), as result they handed them out like candy.  Now you see "regular" people who can no longer get their Oxy prescriptions filled turning to heroin.  Crazy.



How does anyone with a reasonable education not recognize that an Opiate is extremely addictive?  Did they think it would be like poppy seed bagels? WTF

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## SkiFanE (Nov 17, 2014)

Read this article last winter - very sad:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...old-vermont/wNgLvM7CBhltWJIhoWNUzM/story.html


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## Geoff (Nov 17, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Somehow regulations need to be changed so that docs are more responsible with the scripts they write.  Shorter duration and lesser amounts of the drugs would be a start.



This was tightened up several years ago.   Today, you can't write a refillable Opiate Rx and physicians are really scrutinized when they write an Rx.  The street price of OxyContin and the other Rx opiates soared and made OxyContin unaffordable compared to cheap heroin.  

Recently, they also reformulated OxyContin so it is lethal if injecte (injecting it blocks arteries in the lungs).   That pushed the whole injection crowd to heroin.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2014)

All I can tell you is this spring my neighbor left the State run rehab with 120 instant release Oxys and 60 long release.  There was an equal amount of another type of pain killer. That to me seems excessive.  Especially when she had very little pain and was able to manage it with OTC meds just fine.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 17, 2014)

It's worth mentioning that the U.S. comsumes *99%* of hydrocodone (Vicodin) and 80% of prescription opioids worldwide......are we in more pain than other countries?

Hydrocodone is banned in pretty much every country in Europe, even the Netherlands. For the longest time it was a shedule III drug, making the users able to get refills on it without a new script and there being less regulation overall. Dr's have stopped prescribing these as much now, but like others have said, now a lot of these users are looking for another source to get a similar high.


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## ctenidae (Nov 17, 2014)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ti-psychotic-is-worth-6-9-billion-a-year.html

You see shit like this, too, and you have to wonder- how much is the doc's responsibility, how much is our society?


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## gladerider (Nov 17, 2014)

4aprice said:


> What?  Its a big problem here.  Thank god my kids avoided it.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



i don't know about your neighborhood, but definitely not here. are you saying that you have people lining up outside the meth clinic near you? in fact, i just googled. the nearest meth clinic from me is newark. but that is expected.


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## twinplanx (Nov 17, 2014)

gladerider said:


> i don't know about your neighborhood, but definitely not here. are you saying that you have people lining up outside the meth clinic near you? in fact, i just googled. the nearest meth clinic from me is newark. but that is expected.



NIMBYism at its finest. You think you need a Methadone clinic in your neighbourhood to have a drug problem? This shit is everywhere. P.S. Methadone is NOT the stuff Bryan Cranston made on Breaking Bad...

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## drjeff (Nov 17, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> How does anyone with a reasonable education not recognize that an Opiate is extremely addictive?  Did they think it would be like poppy seed bagels? WTF
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



Because unfortunately for many the neuro chemicals released in the brain when the opiate binds to the neuro receptors is damn powerful, pleasurable stuff. And like it or not, in this culture of blame everyone else for anything that cuts into one narcissistic infallible view so many wrongfully have of themselves rather than come to grips with one's own "average" self, they turn to an "escape" from reality rather than actually confront reality. 

The things I have heard patients say and do to try and get a "legal" high via a written prescription for a narcotic pain reliever over the years is scary! It just goes to show the power of addiction and why people need not just focus on the "high horsepower" drugs, but put more effort into stopping things at the "entry" level drug


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## drjeff (Nov 17, 2014)

ctenidae said:


> http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ti-psychotic-is-worth-6-9-billion-a-year.html
> 
> You see shit like this, too, and you have to wonder- how much is the doc's responsibility, how much is our society?



There's a bunch that is societal - the pressure to find something "wrong" with someone and then "fix" it, when often there isn't a magical pill that can do that, and its just the patient needing to come to grips that they're just "normal" and not "exceptional" and that that's 100% fine, that's overwhelming to grasp in this "everyone gets a trophy" modern era.


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## snoseek (Nov 17, 2014)

It's not just docs....

Knew a guy every Friday picked up 500 oxy's @ 5 dollars a piece and immediately sold them @ 10 a piece...all in under 2 hours. Where is it getting supplied from is my question? That's a lot of pills and it was like clockwork.

Any yes he was a deplorable shitbag...


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2014)

HD333 said:


> I saw that Bourdain show it was eye opening.
> 
> Dr's were told that opiates like Oxy were not habit forming (by the drug makers of course), as result they handed them out like candy.  Now you see "regular" people who can no longer get their Oxy prescriptions filled turning to heroin.  Crazy.





twinplanx said:


> How does anyone with a reasonable education not recognize that an Opiate is extremely addictive?  Did they think it would be like poppy seed bagels? WTF
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk





drjeff said:


> Because unfortunately for many the neuro chemicals released in the brain when the opiate binds to the neuro receptors is damn powerful, pleasurable stuff. And like it or not, in this culture of blame everyone else for anything that cuts into one narcissistic infallible view so many wrongfully have of themselves rather than come to grips with one's own "average" self, they turn to an "escape" from reality rather than actually confront reality.
> 
> The things I have heard patients say and do to try and get a "legal" high via a written prescription for a narcotic pain reliever over the years is scary! It just goes to show the power of addiction and why people need not just focus on the "high horsepower" drugs, but put more effort into stopping things at the "entry" level drug



Doc, I'm pretty sure twinplanx wasn't talking about those who abuse the pain killers, but rather being critical of the doctors buying what the pharma companies were selling them and not doing their own research into the dangers of prescribing opiate based pain killers.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 17, 2014)

gladerider said:


> i don't know about your neighborhood, but definitely not here. are you saying that you have people lining up outside the meth clinic near you? in fact, i just googled. the nearest meth clinic from me is newark. but that is expected.



A friend of mine in NJ just posted this on Facebook.  Massive heroin bust today in NJ.  

http://www.nj.com/union/index.ssf/2...e_prosecutor_says.html#incart_related_stories

I'm not sure how near that is to you, but the distribution was across at least five counties of NJ and likely beyond.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 17, 2014)

Customs is catching more these days, but is it a result of more enforcement and better technology, or more traffic across the border? Interviews with top officials unfortunately point to the latter.

This seems to be a the #1 problem in rural communities, what is the trigger to start using? Curiousty? Boredom?


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## gladerider (Nov 18, 2014)

Thanks for the link dhs. That's only a few towns over from me.  Not as bad as Newark but those towns got some rough sections.  But damn I didn't know how bad this problem was. Like I said I feel like I've been under a rock.


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## Geoff (Nov 18, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> How does anyone with a reasonable education not recognize that an Opiate is extremely addictive?



If you grow up working class, get C's in school, and spend your time getting stoned and drunk with your friends, the future as a store clerk or on the fast food line looks pretty bleak.  When somebody says, "here, try this", you do.   Somebody who can't find France on a world map is not going to be making particularly rational decisions about drug use.   After you've blown through your parents stash in the medicine cabinet and raided grandma's stash, you're hooked and there's no turning back.  The FEDs crack down on easy Rx so you have no choice but to switch over to heroin since it's the cheap and accessible option.   To feed your addiction, you break into houses and steal things you can quickly sell to feed your addiction.

The other path is rational adults who are given an Rx for pain management.   After a few weeks of it, they're hooked.   There is a long list of celebrities who have been addicted to opiates.   For every one of those, there are thousands of normal people who fell into the same hole.


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## twinplanx (Nov 18, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Doc, I'm pretty sure twinplanx wasn't talking about those who abuse the pain killers, but rather being critical of the doctors buying what the pharma companies were selling them and not doing their own research into the dangers of prescribing opiate based pain killers.



Yes. DHS gets it...

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## Edd (Nov 18, 2014)

gladerider said:


> But damn I didn't know how bad this problem was. Like I said I feel like I've been under a rock.



I'm like you. I just don't see it but people say it's right around me. My head is up my ass, I guess. 

The lady and I are a childless couple and planned it that way. I think that helps to make us sort of clueless as we're not constantly scanning for threats to our kids. I feel like being a parent makes you so much more aware of the environment around you. We live in kind of a bubble. I should do something about that. Volunteer, perhaps.


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## gladerider (Nov 18, 2014)

I see your excuse. But I have two teenagers.  They tell me that there are kids in their school who do drugs but only a small number.


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## spring_mountain_high (Nov 18, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Customs is catching more these days, but is it a result of more enforcement and better technology, or more traffic across the border? Interviews with top officials unfortunately point to the latter.
> 
> This seems to be a the #1 problem in rural communities, what is the trigger to start using? Curiousty? Boredom?



i think boredom has a lot to do with it...an idle mind and idle hands is the devil's workshop


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## MadMadWorld (Nov 24, 2014)

Recently a doctor in MA was arrested for Medicare fraud but that is really the tip of the iceberg. I think 4 or 5 of his patients died of overdose in the past 12 months before he was arrested and lost his license. It's been an interesting investigation to watch at work. Unfortunately I am not involved in putting this shit head away


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## bigbog (Nov 24, 2014)

HD333 said:


> ........Dr's were told that opiates like Oxy were not habit forming (by the drug makers of course), as result they handed them out like candy.  Now you see "regular" people who can no longer get their Oxy prescriptions filled turning to heroin.  Crazy.


and we who live easier with antihistamines and decongestants in a pill have to sign little forms, and are tracked daily....  The 1960s....those were the days of true freedom, but...didn't have the antihistamines and decongestants..LOL.
So much overprescribing in Maine....anything and everything.....instead of _working out_ life's quizzes.


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## snoseek (Nov 25, 2014)

bigbog said:


> and we who live easier with antihistamines and decongestants in a pill have to sign little forms, and are tracked daily....  The 1960s....those were the days of true freedom, but...didn't have the antihistamines and decongestants..LOL.
> So much overprescribing in Maine....anything and everything.....instead of _working out_ life's quizzes.




Main reason for that is it goes into meth production...and while not a bad problem in NE, its just awful in other places. You definitely don't want to live amongst tweakers, they are a special kind of crazy.


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## nick danger (Nov 29, 2014)

spring_mountain_high said:


> i think boredom has a lot to do with it...an idle mind and idle hands is the devil's workshop



Boredom for sure, but also depression and despair. Caused by any number of clearly significant or even not-so-clearly significant events: losing a loved one, losing a job, losing a pet, not being content (or worse) with the way your life turned out, being disgusted with US politics, worrying about global issues such as climate change, disease epidemics, insanity in the Middle East, Russia and elsewhere, etc, etc. Escape with alcohol and/or opiates the only solution for many people. 

I feel fortunate I can escape by enjoying the outdoors, whether skiing, cycling, running, hiking, etc. many of which I do while smoking weed. Weed being neither an escape nor addictive. While the high can enhance then outdoors experience, it can also in some people, enhance feelings of paranoia, thereby making the bad seem worse, so no escape there. No evidence of physical addiction, no withdrawal after quitting cold turkey. You can't say that about nicotine, or even caffein.  Don't want to start a pro weed rant in this thread, just to distinguish it from the truly dangerous and addictive ones, including tobacco and alcohol.


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## freeski (Nov 30, 2014)

I agree pot enhances outdoor experiences. The sun is brighter, you can hear the birds and notice things  you normally wouldn't. It just gives you more pleasure being outdoor. When I was younger I went through a couple of heavy use periods and I'll go a step further: not only is pot not addictive, but you feel better when you stop. So I'd say it's the opposite of addictive. It can be habit forming, but that is a different subject. The bottom line, no one will ever rob a store to get their next joint.


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## MadMadWorld (Dec 1, 2014)

HD333 said:


> I saw that Bourdain show it was eye opening.
> 
> Dr's were told that opiates like Oxy were not habit forming (by the drug makers of course), as result they handed them out like candy.  Now you see "regular" people who can no longer get their Oxy prescriptions filled turning to heroin.  Crazy.





twinplanx said:


> How does anyone with a reasonable education not recognize that an Opiate is extremely addictive?  Did they think it would be like poppy seed bagels? WTF
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk



Doctors knew it was addictive and if they didn't they have no business having a medical license let alone one that allows them to prescribe scheduled II narcotics. What wasn't in place (up until about 7 years ago) was a national database that kept track of prescriptions written by doctors. They used to rely on local law enforcement and pharmacies to file complaints against doctors. Nowadays there is a lot more legislation in place to prevent doctors from doing these kinds of things.


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## bigbog (Dec 10, 2014)

HD333 said:


> I saw that Bourdain show it was eye opening.
> 
> Dr's were told that opiates like Oxy were not habit forming (by the drug makers of course), as result they handed them out like candy.  Now you see "regular" people who can no longer get their Oxy prescriptions filled turning to heroin.  Crazy.



Once they feed their addictions on a regular basis...it really doesn't matter what the substance is....many things seem to _HIT _on the addict's brain once the substance-loop has starts..  As it goes on..the stronger/more-potent Hit..the better..  Lots of towns/cities with small law enforcement budgets = safer territory to do business.
$.01...


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## Geoff (Dec 18, 2014)

freeski said:


> I agree pot enhances outdoor experiences. The sun is brighter, you can hear the birds and notice things  you normally wouldn't. It just gives you more pleasure being outdoor. When I was younger I went through a couple of heavy use periods and I'll go a step further: not only is pot not addictive, but you feel better when you stop. So I'd say it's the opposite of addictive. It can be habit forming, but that is a different subject. The bottom line, no one will ever rob a store to get their next joint.



There is plenty of data out there about cognitive dysfunction associated with long-term or heavy cannabis use.   Look at what it's done to Scotty's spelling and grammar.   

Back in the 1970's when I was in college and nobody cared, I used to buy pounds, sell ounces, and smoke the rest with my friends.   I had enough self-discipline that I could leave the pot and the keg alone when I had exams or homework to deal with.  2 or 3 years into an engineering degree, the work load increased to the point where getting buzzed was weekends-only.  That wasn't the experience of most of my pot-smoking and hard-drinking college friends who mostly flunked out eventually.   The older I got, the harder it was for me to metabolize it and a few tokes would turn me into a vegetable instead of being something that enhanced my day.  The last time I bought pot was Amsterdam almost 20 years ago.   It's been maybe 4 years since I was last coerced into getting stoned while spring tailgating in the ski area parking lot.

I'd have no problem at all legalizing pot nationally but you're kidding yourself by trying to claim that it's totally harmless.  It might not particularly impact your life but it's kryptonite for an already demotivated teen or 20-something.   I'm starting to sound like Dean Wormer lecturing Flounder in Animal House.   

I never know if I'm going to have a change in work circumstances where I have a new employer who makes me pee in a cup.  Since it takes a long time to purge a fat-soluble drug from your system, I have no interest in risking my income stream.   If it were legal, I have a great ginger snap recipe and I'd try to work out a dosage that enhances things instead of shutting me down.


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## AdironRider (Dec 18, 2014)

Geoff said:


> There is plenty of data out there about cognitive dysfunction associated with long-term or heavy cannabis use.   Look at what it's done to Scotty's spelling and grammar.
> 
> Back in the 1970's when I was in college and nobody cared, I used to buy pounds, sell ounces, and smoke the rest with my friends.   I had enough self-discipline that I could leave the pot and the keg alone when I had exams or homework to deal with.  2 or 3 years into an engineering degree, the work load increased to the point where getting buzzed was weekends-only.  That wasn't the experience of most of my pot-smoking and hard-drinking college friends who mostly flunked out eventually.   The older I got, the harder it was for me to metabolize it and a few tokes would turn me into a vegetable instead of being something that enhanced my day.  The last time I bought pot was Amsterdam almost 20 years ago.   It's been maybe 4 years since I was last coerced into getting stoned while spring tailgating in the ski area parking lot.
> 
> ...


\

Well this sounds like one big stereotype. 

Having lived in Jackson with a solid enough title that NYC folks actually talk to me like an equal, its amazing to me how many high functioning adults still smoke weed. Don't get me wrong, they aren't smoking doobs just to start the day, but here and there with no issues. We are talking CEO's, VP's, the whole nine yards. I fall into this camp (minus the paycheck!) and have no ill effects. 

Weed is not a problem at all. Addiction and those who struggle with it will find their vice, whether it be weed, booze, or pills, and it will bring them down. Stoners are no different than alcoholics, although a lot less violent, still very unmotivated unless there is a chance to get high at the end of it.


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## Geoff (Dec 18, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Well this sounds like one big stereotype.



What, smoke too much dope in your life so you only read and comprehended the first sentence?


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## AdironRider (Dec 18, 2014)

Geoff said:


> I'm starting to sound like Dean Wormer lecturing Flounder in Animal House.





Geoff said:


> What, smoke too much dope in your life so you only read and comprehended the first sentence?



Hey man you said it yourself, right after stereotyping that almost all stoners flunk out.

Do you disagree that its the person and not the drug moreso than the drug and not the person?


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## ScottySkis (Dec 18, 2014)

My spelling is bad because I have certain disability. Half the time I know when the sleeping is incorrect but leave because it Scotty language lol. I never been and never will be a good at sleeping. I learned that in highschool way before I ever did cannabis at age 20 . up I never did it high school what a shock. I know plenty of people also who are part of 1% who use the herb there the ones voting for legalize . True though it definitely not everyone. I really haven't been using it to much lately but that for other reason I don't want out here.


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## skiNEwhere (Dec 18, 2014)

Anything can be addictive. Hell, even skiing can be addictive. I'd venture to guess than the majority of AZ'ers significant others say they are addicted to skiing in one form another, from the benign, to where it adversely affects their relationship.


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