# Want to Ski Alta This Season?



## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2020)

Their day ticket price is now $141.00.  No huge changes in the last couple of years.  The price is if you buy online (the only option now) in advance.  That is for Alta only.  Not that long ago, an Alta/Bird ticket was $139.00.  When we moved out here in 2011 it was about half that price for a day.






						Lift Tickets
					






					shop.alta.com
				




There are some days that are "discounted" to $109 in the distant future, but there is a big disclaimer that there may not be parking.

The upshot:  Alta is no longer for the die hard, duct-taped jacket, local ski bum.  Hopefully their marketing will drop that line.

I get it that they are pushing season passes, but the average person doesn’t know that and $141.00 is a lot of money, especially in this pandemic economy.


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## kingslug (Nov 24, 2020)

It was 38.00 when I first went there..soon we'll be saying..remember when it was only 200.00.


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## jimk (Nov 24, 2020)

It went from dirtbag to mainstream to boutique in about 20 years.  

But on a good day it's priceless!


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## kingslug (Nov 24, 2020)

Still the best..and i will pay.


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## jimk (Nov 26, 2020)

Traveling up LCC could be tricky this winter.  I'm still thinking non-powder weekdays should not be problematic, but...
Here's a recent report about various traffic issues expected in LCC this winter:    https://www.ksl.com/article/5004995...-ski-traffic-in-salt-lakes-cottonwood-canyons


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## kingslug (Nov 26, 2020)

It can't get better unless they change..something.


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## jaytrem (Nov 26, 2020)

Sounds like you need to spend more time at Discovery this year.


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## Zand (Nov 26, 2020)

Wait...$141 is a lot for a major ski area? That's one of the lowest prices in the west for a big mountain, and Stowe is approaching that in the east. Even MRG is $92 per day.

Not sure what's shocking here...


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## cdskier (Nov 26, 2020)

Zand said:


> Wait...$141 is a lot for a major ski area? That's one of the lowest prices in the west for a big mountain, and Stowe is approaching that in the east. Even MRG is $92 per day.
> 
> Not sure what's shocking here...



Stowe is approaching that? I'd bet this year it is definitely over that. Sugarbush is $169 with no discounts and K is $165 with no discounts (even with discounts for purchasing in advance the best prices you can get for either mid-season are mid-week and put you at around $100/day).

But yes, I agree that this is not shocking at all.


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## Zand (Nov 26, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Stowe is approaching that? I'd bet this year it is definitely over that. Sugarbush is $169 with no discounts and K is $165 with no discounts (even with discounts for purchasing in advance the best prices you can get for either mid-season are mid-week and put you at around $100/day).
> 
> But yes, I agree that this is not shocking at all.


Well damn, I'm behind the times then 

Thought Stowe was at like $129 and Bush, K, Stratton, Okemo, etc were pushing $120. Maybe that was a couple years ago at this point lol.


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## thebigo (Nov 26, 2020)

First trip to alta, remember reading an article titled: 'steep, deep and cheap'.


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## kingslug (Nov 27, 2020)

Stowe was 147.00


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## ScottySkis (Nov 27, 2020)

thebigo said:


> First trip to alta, remember reading an article titled: 'steep, deep and cheap'.


So glad I got to all those 4 areas by SlC
About 10 years ago best memories ever for me.


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## Harvey (Nov 27, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Their day ticket price is now $141.00.


Is it a permanent increase?  This year Gore went from $74 to $105.  I'm thinking it's a rona thing.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2020)

Zand said:


> Wait...$141 is a lot for a major ski area? That's one of the lowest prices in the west for a big mountain, and Stowe is approaching that in the east. Even MRG is $92 per day.
> 
> Not sure what's shocking here...


That Alta markets itself as the local dirtbag area when it is not.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Is it a permanent increase?  This year Gore went from $74 to $105.  I'm thinking it's a rona thing.


I doubt it is temporary.  It’s also instep with the new business model of less day tickets and more passes.


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## kingslug (Nov 27, 2020)

Not temporary and will climb every year. They want you to get an Epic pass.


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## kingslug (Nov 27, 2020)

And since Alta has become so popular, the population is growing, etc..then what the hell..raise prices..people will pay it. I do.


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## jaytrem (Nov 27, 2020)

At some point the Yeti pass makes sense.  But that only gets you 1 day at Alta.  I figure I'll finally return to Utah when my kids are in 5th grade.  For $739 (plus 2 years inflation), 3 of us should be able to get 11 days in.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2020)

jimk said:


> It went from dirtbag to mainstream to boutique in about 20 years.



That's extremely sad.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Is it a permanent increase?  This year *Gore went from $74 to $105.  I'm thinking it's a rona thing.*



Below I've copy & pasted a list of all the times in history when government lowered their prices after a price increase.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2020)

I cant wait for Vail Resorts to implode under it's "MTN" of corporate debt, and take these artificially high single day rates to the dustbin of ski history with it.


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## kingslug (Nov 29, 2020)

Its like anything else..if its the best..people want it. It makes me think of a cool vehicle thast was cheap and hippies drove around..the Volkswagon Vanagon. Time was you could get a used one for 500 bucks. Now they go for over 30K and pristine ones have sold for 100K...why...they got cool and people are willing to pay for it. Utah has changed so much in 20 years..its getting totaly built up..why..its cool and people want to be there. Where's the last state you saw an entirely new airport built..right next to the old one?


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## Harvey (Nov 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Below I've copy & pasted a list of all the times in history when government lowered their prices after a price increase.


So you think Gore's day ticket rate will be $105 next year?

I'll take that bet.


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## FBGM (Nov 29, 2020)

Alta has turned into Brooklyn.

 “I only ski Alta” is now “I only drink IPAs and shop at Trader Joe’s”


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## kingslug (Nov 30, 2020)

Its because...everyone.... is from Brooklyn


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## thetrailboss (Nov 30, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Alta has turned into Brooklyn.
> 
> “I only ski Alta” is now “I only drink IPAs and shop at Trader Joe’s”


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## snoseek (Nov 30, 2020)

141 dollars and a shitshow (covid or not) canyon commute/parking means the juice ain't worth the squeeze to me. Maybe if I was looking to go west on an ikon but I did a one and done winter up there a couple years ago and 3 back in the 90's. Things are still awesome but very very different. There used to be a lottery for the privilege of buying a pass...


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## abc (Nov 30, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Alta has turned into Brooklyn.
> 
> “I only ski Alta” is now “I only drink IPAs and shop at Trader Joe’s”


Lump it!

Trader Joe's is cheaper than many of the local grocery stores. So why not?

The hipsters had moved onto all organic straight-from-the-farm coops. Former Brooklynites all decamped upstate (and only after they cashed out their million plus former warehouse).

The "new Alta" is in the BCC canyon.

Do keep up with time.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 30, 2020)

trader joes is good for some specific items but it is so severely lacking in most other items that i can't really do the bulk of our shopping there. its great for someone who has no ability to cook for themselves who just wants to dump a ready to eat meal from a freezer bag into a pan for 5 minutes. but we like to cook and find the quality of produce, meat, dairy, etc to be much higher at whole foods near us. whole foods also got super competitive for prices after amazon acquired them. the two "independent" (gristede's and c-town) grocery stores near us are more expensive than the whole foods and not as good. we go to a local fish store, bakery, and butcher pretty frequently too. we def don't fuck with the park slope food co-op. they have crazy rules to shop there. shout out to the new-ish Brooklyn wegman's tho.


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## abc (Nov 30, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the two "independent" (gristede's and c-town) grocery stores near us are more expensive than the whole foods and not as good.


That has been my experience having lived in the 'burb too. 

Trader Joe's has good quality stuff at reasonable price. But it's too small and don't carry enough varieties. It also annoy the hell out of me when they frequently change suppliers of items. 

My best bet is still Costco and BJ's. I used to hate their big packages for my small household of 2. But now with no eating out and no traveling, the big packages turn out to be just the right size! 

There's nothing hipster'y with Trader Joe's any more. Whole Food took that away. And now, even WF is "main stream". Nothing to do with hips. Just good produce.


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## jaytrem (Nov 30, 2020)

The Pathmark in my old town closed down about 5 years ago, Lidl is going to open up there soon.  But who gives a shit, I thought this was a skiing forum? ;-)

As for Alta, haven't been there in about 15 years, and it was too crowded back then.  Not to mention it draws a crowd that's kinda douchey.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 1, 2020)

Harvey said:


> So you think Gore's day ticket rate will be $105 next year?
> 
> I'll take that bet.



If not $105 then certainly much higher than $74, meaning a very large increase that would not have happened ex-COVID19.   Why do you think it's impossible they wouldnt just leave it at $105 given their financial difficulties & the high rates of surrounding areas?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> The Pathmark in my old town closed down about 5 years ago, Lidl is going to open up there soon.  But who gives a shit, I thought this was a skiing forum? ;-)
> 
> As for Alta, haven't been there in about 15 years, and it was too crowded back then.  Not to mention it draws a crowd that's kinda douchey.


The Altatude has increased substantially.....


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## Harvey (Dec 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If not $105 then certainly much higher than $74, meaning a very large increase that would not have happened ex-COVID19. Why do you think it's impossible they wouldnt just leave it at $105 given their financial difficulties & the high rates of surrounding areas?



Being willing to bet, isn't the same as saying it's impossible. 

Do you think it's impossible that it will go back down to... I don't know 78 or 84?


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## abc (Dec 1, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Being willing to bet, isn't the same as saying it's impossible.
> 
> Do you think it's impossible that it will go back down to... I don't know 78 or 84?


It's possible, but unlikely


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## Harvey (Dec 1, 2020)

Across the entire industry or just at Gore?


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Being willing to bet, isn't the same as saying it's impossible.
> 
> Do you think it's impossible that it will go back down to... I don't know 78 or 84?



Forced to bet, I'd split the difference.  I think there will be a raise from $74, and I think it will higher than the $78 or $84 you think, but I think they'll marginally cut it back for optics reasons so they're not perceived as taking advantage of COVID19 for future year profts.  Minimum of $89 is my W.A.G.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> The Altatude has increased substantially.....



That's a real thing?  I just assumed it was people jealous of Alta casting aspersions, likely increased by that certain minority percentage of snowboarders who **** on every resort which is still skiing-only.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

re: altatude - one thing my buddies and i noticed last February at alta/bird is that the super heady cool guy ripper local ski bums all have mustaches. specifically mustaches. not beards. mustaches. a mustache is like a sign of being in some fraternity of alta shredders. it got to the point that i cultivated a really awful 10 day mustache during the trip just for shits and giggles. i have a full beard and long hair now, haven't gotten a cut since before that utah trip in feb 2020 actually. my beard sucks. i hate it. its spotty as fuck. beats shaving tho when i don't need to report to an office anymore.


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## FBGM (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> re: altatude - one thing my buddies and i noticed last February at alta/bird is that the super heady cool guy ripper local ski bums all have mustaches. specifically mustaches. not beards. mustaches. a mustache is like a sign of being in some fraternity of alta shredders. it got to the point that i cultivated a really awful 10 day mustache during the trip just for shits and giggles. i have a full beard and long hair now, haven't gotten a cut since before that utah trip in feb 2020 actually. my beard sucks. i hate it. its spotty as fuck. beats shaving tho when i don't need to report to an office anymore



Alta hipsters probably charge a IPA six pack for Mustache rides


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## Harvey (Dec 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Minimum of $89 is my W.A.G.



So you are betting this will be the first time in history.  I think I already won the bet.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 3, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Alta hipsters probably charge a IPA six pack for Mustache rides


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## jimk (Dec 4, 2020)

Spoke to my son in Utah last night.  He has skied Alta three or four times in the last week or two and, anecdotally, says there is a surprising percent of out of state license plates in the parking lots.  Not sure what this is all about?  He says a lot of the plates are from back east and some Cali too.   I told him some eastern states like VT and PA have enacted covid restrictions making them tough to visit, but I wouldn't think that would be steering skiers to the west this early in season??


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 4, 2020)

jimk said:


> Spoke to my son in Utah last night.  He has skied Alta three or four times in the last week or two and, anecdotally, says there is a surprising percent of out of state license plates in the parking lots.  Not sure what this is all about?  He says a lot of the plates are from back east and some Cali too.   I told him some eastern states like VT and PA have enacted covid restrictions making them tough to visit, but I wouldn't think that would be steering skiers to the west this early in season??



i was strongly considering driving west and i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of others made that decision too. i am off from December 9 - January 4. had to use up vacation days in the calendar year and my summer had absolutely no reason to take any time away from work. the only reasons i decided not to drive west is general covid wariness and wanting to spend x-mas with my girlfriend at home, since every x-mas with her so far has revolved around skiing and that hasn't been super fair for her. decided for 12 days in Vermont instead from 12/9-20. lots less driving. lots less worry. and i get to come home and have another 2 weeks off at home, after which i will be quarantine legal to go back to Vermont first weekend in january.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2020)

jimk said:


> Spoke to my son in Utah last night.  He has skied Alta three or four times in the last week or two and, anecdotally, says there is a surprising percent of out of state license plates in the parking lots.  Not sure what this is all about?  He says a lot of the plates are from back east and some Cali too.   I told him some eastern states like VT and PA have enacted covid restrictions making them tough to visit, but I wouldn't think that would be steering skiers to the west this early in season??


So, speaking anecdotally, I know of a few folks who have decided to "move" to Utah or other ski destinations for the winter because they are working remotely.  So why not?  I have two inlaws who moved from San Francisco to SLC for the winter, have IKON passes, work remotely, and just rented a place to live.  They have a large spreadsheet of all the ski areas they want to hit.  Utah is more lax in terms of COVID restrictions (and it shows) so folks are thinking of this as an opportunity.  If I was younger, without kid, and perhaps not married, I would be tempted to do the same.  

Frankly, if IKON and Epic did not exist then I am not sure if we would see this phenomenon.  I know that it is happening in Vermont and NNE this year and did over the summer.  Folks figured if they had to quarantine for two weeks then why not just move up north for the summer/winter?  Ironically, this has increased housing prices even more in these areas.  The one bright spot in the pandemic economy, at least if you are a landlord or in the market to sell.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 4, 2020)

i looked into long term situations in new england but didn't want to essentially carry 2 rents and we can't (and don't want to) sublet our apartment here. also was concerned about the potential crap internet in an airbnb for working.


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## jimk (Dec 4, 2020)

Yes, son did theorize about the remote working thing freeing people to travel and I suppose burning end of year vaca time could have them doing that in the early season?  Could be a big year for airbnb in ski country?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 4, 2020)

jimk said:


> Yes, son did theorize about the remote working thing freeing people to travel and I suppose burning end of year vaca time could have them doing that in the early season?  Could be a big year for airbnb in ski country?


 
100%. my colleagues are all over the fucking map right now, and it hasn't really stopped us from getting anything done. we're likely going to be in some sort of hybrid scenario when covid is over with bigtime remote work flexibility.


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## Glade Monkey (Dec 4, 2020)

Alta is on the Ikon so skiing 7 days on the full pass or 5 days on the base pass "pays" for it!
(note that Alta days are shared with Snowbird) While you're in SLC you can also hit 7 or 5 days at Brighton and Deer Valley, and unlimited at Solitude on Ikon.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Alta is on the Ikon so skiing 7 days on the full pass or 5 days on the base pass "pays" for it!
> (note that Alta days are shared with Snowbird) While you're in SLC you can also hit 7 or 5 days at Brighton and Deer Valley, and unlimited at Solitude on Ikon.


[Don't remind people of this.   ]


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## ss20 (Dec 4, 2020)

For anyone not following the non-northeast trip report section of the forum, I am one of the out-of-state plates who's been in Alta the past few days (and Jackson Hole, Brighton, soon Crystal, WA, maybe Big Sky).  Why not?  The skiing is better out here than back East (unless you're in CO....they're in just as bad shape).  The covid restrictions are at a good middle ground.   Masks are required now.  But no quarantines or travel restrictions.  I'm not going into town bars....my hotel has a small kitchenette so I'm cooking my own meals.  So I'm "exposing" myself once or twice a week at the grocery store for twenty minutes with mask use by me and everyone around me....same as at home in CT.  

And for me it's not just vacation....planning on moving here in the fall.  I like what I see so far.  Lower cost of living is very real.  Lots of healthy economic signs....I've counted ZERO empty retail spaces.  Saw ads for In/Out Burger starting people at $13.50/hr.  For hahas I looked up jobs up in the Cottonwoods and tons of entry level service stuff paying significantly above minimum wage.  I know corporate jobs aren't paying like the northeast though.  

As for the skiing it's East Coast conditions on big western terrain.  It's not good skiing yet, but I am pretty damn impressed.  OK, Jackson Hole opening weekend was pretty awesome even by local standards.  Much dryer here in Utah but there is a base, I'll take the 30 trails at Snowbird tomorrow over a dozen at Killington.  

Can't wait to drive up to Crystal as their precip cycle is starting up again.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2020)

Just got done my first day of the season at Snowbird.  Got to say the parking reservation system worked really nicely.  It is deterring folks from coming.  Probably one of the best preseason ski experiences in a long time.  No crowds, decent terrain all things considered, plenty of room.  No traffic jams.  Nice.


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## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Frankly, if IKON and Epic did not exist then I am not sure if we would see this phenomenon. I know that it is happening in Vermont and NNE this year and did over the summer. Folks figured if they had to quarantine for two weeks then why not just move up north for the summer/winter?


Epic has existed for a long time (several years in northeast now). But how many do that? (I did, way back before Ikon, when it was only RMSP, remote working from Colorado)

It's really just the WFH (and remote learning for kids) that makes it possible for people to just stay up in the mountains.

Epic makes season pass cheaper. But that's a separate issue.

It takes BOTH remote working/learning and cheap passes to make this happen. Cheap Epic passes alone didn't do it. Remote working/learning along probably will do it for many though, albeit a smaller population. Basically only those who've been buying (the more expensive) passes in year past. And those who could afford to do it now.


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## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my colleagues are all over the fucking map right now, and it hasn't really stopped us from getting anything done. we're likely going to be in some sort of hybrid scenario when covid is over with bigtime remote work flexibility.


That's kind of old news for us folks working on the IT field. 

I've been working remotely on short stink for years. The work efficiency is not a problem at all. It's really the big wigs who are resistant to people working fully remote. (what's ironic, they would push for "off shore" work force in say India or Ireland, but wouldn't let the local work force to work from a couple thousand miles away, in the same time zone!)

I'm definitely one of the "glass half full" type. I think this pandemic WILL break this issue out in the open. So many people working successfully from home. All of them would want to continue this to some degree. 

The flood gate has opened. They can't hold back the tide any more!


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## snoseek (Dec 5, 2020)

ss20 said:


> For anyone not following the non-northeast trip report section of the forum, I am one of the out-of-state plates who's been in Alta the past few days (and Jackson Hole, Brighton, soon Crystal, WA, maybe Big Sky).  Why not?  The skiing is better out here than back East (unless you're in CO....they're in just as bad shape).  The covid restrictions are at a good middle ground.   Masks are required now.  But no quarantines or travel restrictions.  I'm not going into town bars....my hotel has a small kitchenette so I'm cooking my own meals.  So I'm "exposing" myself once or twice a week at the grocery store for twenty minutes with mask use by me and everyone around me....same as at home in CT.
> 
> And for me it's not just vacation....planning on moving here in the fall.  I like what I see so far.  Lower cost of living is very real.  Lots of healthy economic signs....I've counted ZERO empty retail spaces.  Saw ads for In/Out Burger starting people at $13.50/hr.  For hahas I looked up jobs up in the Cottonwoods and tons of entry level service stuff paying significantly above minimum wage.  I know corporate jobs aren't paying like the northeast though.
> 
> ...


What type of work do you do? Fyi you want to stay off the valley floor is you can swing it the air sucks in winter


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## thetrailboss (Dec 5, 2020)

abc said:


> That's kind of old news for us folks working on the IT field.
> 
> I've been working remotely on short stink for years. The work efficiency is not a problem at all. It's really the big wigs who are resistant to people working fully remote. (what's ironic, they would push for "off shore" work force in say India or Ireland, but wouldn't let the local work force to work from a couple thousand miles away, in the same time zone!)
> 
> ...


As you said, the pandemic forced a lot of employers to allow working remotely or go out of business.  In my experience and from what I have heard, the MAJORITY of employees are MORE productive now.  Amazing how an emergency can force changes that would have taken years to happen otherwise.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i have a full beard



Honestly, in my mind I always assumed you did.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

Harvey said:


> So you are betting this will be the first time in history.  I think I already won the bet.



I'm so confused; werent you the one saying the sole reason for the increase was a "rona thing"?


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

jimk said:


> Spoke to my son in Utah last night.  He has skied Alta three or four times in the last week or two and, anecdotally, says there is a surprising percent of out of state license plates in the parking lots.  *Not sure what this is all about?*



Work from home.

Were I single I could easily AirBnb a cheap 1BR in Cottonwood Heights & ski my ass off.  Finance, it can be done anywhere. 
 Accounting can too.  AP, same.  AR, same.  Lots of folks can.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

jimk said:


> *Could be a big year for airbnb *



IPO this week.  Get your limit orders in early.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

ss20 said:


> *In/Out Burger starting people at $13.50/hr*.............*corporate jobs aren't paying like the northeast though. *



That seems like an odd dichotomy, any explanation for high-paid unskilled jobs with simultaneous low-paid skilled jobs?


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

abc said:


> I've been working remotely on short stink for years. The work efficiency is not a problem at all. *It's really the big wigs who are resistant to people working fully remote.* (*what's ironic, they would push for "off shore" work force in say India or Ireland*, but wouldn't let the local work force to work from a couple thousand miles away, in the same time zone!)
> 
> I'm definitely one of the "glass half full" type. I think this pandemic WILL break this issue out in the open. So many people working successfully from home. All of them would want to continue this to some degree. *The flood gate has opened. They can't hold back the tide any more!*



OMG, so much all of this.  Every bit of it.  I work for a company run by white-haired people, and they wanted us ALL back in September, even though I'm not far from the GLOBAL EPICENTER of this nonsense.  I cant even understand that.  If you have a function that can be 100% done remotely with 0% drop in efficiency, why in god's name would you demand they come back to the building?  I hate the expression, "OK Boomer", but "OK Boomer" actually applies here.

It's over.  Nobody listens to techno.  Start investing in the companies which are the pitchforks & shovels of the Cloud, because those companies are going to be the next to go BOOM!  So many terabytes of data are now being created.  Someone's gotta' store, manage, backup, compliance, govern, all that crap.  MSFT claims it had 2 years of prior projected Teams growth in less than 2 months!  Salesforce actually recently gave up on even trying to backup client's data & sent out a memo to their customers saying, "uhhh....guys....get a 3rd party to do this crap".   They basically said, screw it & turned away millions of dollars because they're flipping swamped.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 6, 2020)

I work in cloud technology for small to mid size law firms. We’ve been booming.

I listen to techno everyday.

The only reason I had no beard pre covid is bc it’s spotty and shitty. It’s a great shame but I don’t care during work from home life


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That seems like an odd dichotomy, any explanation for high-paid unskilled jobs with simultaneous low-paid skilled jobs?


Because we have low unemployment and they can't find anyone to work those jobs.  That's why.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> IPO this week.  Get your limit orders in early.


Re:  Airbnb vs. VRBO

Based on my pandemic experience, if you are a unit owner, VRBO is better for you.  If you are a consumer, Airbnb is better.  We had a terrible experience with a VRBO host in March when this whole thing started.  Airbnb immediately refunded all rentals in full.  VRBO did nothing and tried to play the, "gee, we're just a middleman" bullshit.  Ultimately we got most of our money back but it was clear that the owner was WAY over her head and like some others had built a rental empire with a flimsy foundation that came crashing down when business stopped.


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## abc (Dec 6, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Re:  Airbnb vs. VRBO
> 
> Based on my pandemic experience, if you are a unit owner, VRBO is better for you.  If you are a consumer, Airbnb is better.  We had a terrible experience with a VRBO host in March when this whole thing started.  Airbnb immediately refunded all rentals in full.  VRBO did nothing and tried to play the, "gee, we're just a middleman" bullshit.  Ultimately we got most of our money back but it was clear that the owner was WAY over her head and like some others had built a rental empire with a flimsy foundation that came crashing down when business stopped.


Different portfolio, I think.

My impression, VRBO are mostly 2nd home owners who count on the rental income to pay their mortgage. So yes, the house of card can come crashing down when the market dries up.

Airbnb has some of those. But many more of Airbnb owner are renting their unused space/property they've already paid off, or can comfortably carry without the rental income. Part of the reason maybe Airbnb hasn't been around long enough to inspire people building such "rental empire" from the ground up as VRBO has?

It's just a speculation of the top off my head.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2020)

As to Alta, I may be going up today, maybe not.  Depends on what my daughter wants to do.....


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2020)

abc said:


> Different portfolio, I think.
> 
> My impression, VRBO are mostly 2nd home owners who count on the rental income to pay their mortgage. So yes, the house of card can come crashing down when the market dries up.
> 
> ...


That’s a good observation


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## Harvey (Dec 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm so confused; werent you the one saying the sole reason for the increase was a "rona thing"?



You basically said the price would never go down, then when it came to betting you said it would do down by only X amount.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2020)

Back to Alta, it was pretty thin today.  The lowest snowpack I have seen there.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Because we have low unemployment and they can't find anyone to work those jobs.  That's why.



That the latter half makes perfect sense, but if unemployment is so low, one would presume there will be upward wage pressure on the skilled jobs as well.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That the latter half makes perfect sense, but if unemployment is so low, one would presume there will be upward wage pressure on the skilled jobs as well.


One would think........


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## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That the latter half makes perfect sense, but if unemployment is so low, one would presume there will be upward wage pressure on the skilled jobs as well.


Depends on what level of "skill".

The upper part of the "skill" is only skill based. You can't just pull someone off the street to work in the surgery center like you could to work in the mail room. You can't even put an unemployed nurse to work as a dental hygienist. The only way to increase supply (when population grows increases demand) is to attract someone from out of the area.

Wage level of the white collar job correlate more to housing cost than to unemployment. When the "real" income looks good, the professionals move in. So as long as housing cost is low, wage for white collar professionals won't move up.

Conversely, when contemplating relocation, don't expect to get the northeast level of pay in Utah. Look instead at what portion of your salary you get to keep. One of my co-worker relocated 2 years ago. They were the perfect example, one of the partner works in IT, the other a bike mechanic. The bike mechanic got a wage increase, the IT specialist took a pay cut. But after only a year there, they bought a pretty big house which they would never dreamt of in Brooklyn (NY)


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## jimk (Dec 7, 2020)

abc said:


> Depends on what level of "skill".
> 
> The upper part of the "skill" is only skill based. You can't just pull someone off the street to work in the surgery center like you could to work in the mail room. You can't even put an unemployed nurse to work as a dental hygienist. The only way to increase supply (when population grows increases demand) is to attract someone from out of the area.
> 
> ...


Regarding last sentence, my son's house in the suburbs of SLC is very similar in style and age to mine in the suburbs of Wash DC , although his has about 10% less square footage.  Both homes are pretty basic split foyers.  The zillow estimate for his house is less than 50% of mine.  That translates to a $400k differential.


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## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

jimk said:


> The zillow estimate for his house is less than 50% of mine


Exactly, so say a professional relocating to Utah gets only 80% of the salaries, he still comes out ahead!


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## ss20 (Dec 7, 2020)

Ya know I have a marketing degree I should be putting more to use....but I also have a culinary background.  For hahas I was looking at line cook jobs out in UT and the pay is only marginally less than what I'm getting in CT being at the same gig for 6 years.  $15-$16 an hour....that's pretty damn enticing given the cheap cost of living.  Work when the rest of the world is resting, ski when the rest of the world is working.  But as anyone who's worked that industry knows....it sucks.  Luckily I only do it 7/12 months of the year.  I've been a part-time ski instructor at my local hill and I've got the certs and the experience I think I'd make decent money out there.  

Anyway....the plan is to still teach skiing for a season out there then see what marketing opportunities are available in SLC post ski season.  But I can see myself on a path up the ski industry.  The marketing, FB, and instructing background makes me ripe to be grown into something valuable to the industry, I think.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 7, 2020)

abc said:


> But after only a year there, they bought a pretty big house which they would never dreamt of in Brooklyn (NY)



Meh, that only worked because they're comparing it to NYC homes, which are among the most expensive on Planet Earth.  Same could be said if you used San Francisco or some other crazy high real estate area as your comp, but the reality is, homes are actually very expensive in the Wasatch area on a relative basis for the average American, especially given the incomes are less.  Frankly, I think Utah is in a housing bubble right now, which is likely only sustainable if more people from CA keep moving in after cashing out their high-priced CA homes!  lol


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## ss20 (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Meh, that only worked because they're comparing it to NYC homes, which are among the most expensive on Planet Earth.  Same could be said if you used San Francisco or some other crazy high real estate area as your comp, but the reality is, homes are actually very expensive in the Wasatch area on a relative basis for the average American, especially given the incomes are less.  Frankly, I think Utah is in a housing bubble right now, which is likely only sustainable if more people from CA keep moving in after cashing out their high-priced CA homes!  lol



What I think will be interesting is Utah a flee-to state or a flee-from state in our post-pandemic world?  Work-from-home is going to continue and people are going to keep moving to the suburbs and rural areas.  Is SLC/Sandy "too big" and people go to the new, less dense communities around SLC/Sandy...or do they go totally off the reservation and go t the other boomtowns south and east of Park City?  Or do they just pile into the new developments in the SLC area 20 minutes from the city center?


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## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

I've been looking at moving to Utah forever. The pay cut is extreme though..something like 70 to 80%..yes..that much. My wife would take a similar cut. Unless we really scored a rare job and we have looked.


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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I've been looking at moving to Utah forever. The pay cut is extreme though..something like 70 to 80%..yes..that much. My wife would take a similar cut. Unless we really scored a rare job and we have looked.


Supply and demand. Your employment of choice must have a lot of candidates in SLC and/or you are over paid for the job you do.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I've been looking at moving to Utah forever. The* pay cut is extreme though..something like 70 to 80%..yes..that much.* My wife would take a similar cut. Unless we really scored a rare job and we have looked.



How is that even possible?  Highly skeptical.   Utah wages are lower than New Jersey & New York, but Utah isnt Bangladesh for heaven's sake.

EDIT:  Are you by any chance in a union?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Meh, that only worked because they're comparing it to NYC homes, which are among the most expensive on Planet Earth.  Same could be said if you used San Francisco or some other crazy high real estate area as your comp, but the reality is, homes are actually very expensive in the Wasatch area on a relative basis for the average American, especially given the incomes are less.  Frankly, I think Utah is in a housing bubble right now, which is likely only sustainable if more people from CA keep moving in after cashing out their high-priced CA homes!  lol


Utah is indeed in a housing bubble.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2020)

ss20 said:


> What I think will be interesting is Utah a flee-to state or a flee-from state in our post-pandemic world?  Work-from-home is going to continue and people are going to keep moving to the suburbs and rural areas.  Is SLC/Sandy "too big" and people go to the new, less dense communities around SLC/Sandy...or do they go totally off the reservation and go t the other boomtowns south and east of Park City?  Or do they just pile into the new developments in the SLC area 20 minutes from the city center?


Most are moving to Park City and that area.  The Wasatch Back is also growing really, really fast.


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## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

yes and my wife is a VP..so I doubt we will make mid 6 figures combined or anywhere near it. I'm at the top of the game in the union..not happening in Utah..


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## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

And as usual she doesn't want to leave her family and everyone she knows and have money to travel all over the world.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Most are moving to Park City and that area.  The Wasatch Back is also growing really, really fast.



Both the front & the back are growing really, really, fast.  Drive around Lehi & points south next time you're in Utah.  It looks like a tower-crane farm.  Northern SLC suburbs are growing quick too. 

 As for the Wasatch Back, yes, it seems farmers & ranchers cant sell fast enough, and in their place houses are going up. Closer to Park City in places like Hideout it's townhouses & condos.  I actually find it really sad, because without any protective zoning I'm beginning to wonder how much "Back" will be back there in 20 years.  They could really use a model farmland preservation program.  

In terms of the economics on homes, when I look at Utah wages I struggle to understand how the typical family can afford the $500,000 to $800,000 homes, let alone the seemingly booming $1M+ cohort.  And if you go on Redfin or Zillow, the $500,000 homes are not what I'd call impressive.  IMO, something's gotta' give.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Meh, that only worked because they're comparing it to NYC homes, which are among the most expensive on Planet Earth.  Same could be said if you used San Francisco or some other crazy high real estate area as your comp, but the reality is, homes are actually very expensive in the Wasatch area on a relative basis for the average American, especially given the incomes are less.  Frankly, I think Utah is in a housing bubble right now, which is likely only sustainable if more people from CA keep moving in after cashing out their high-priced CA homes!  lol


Except they're also comparing their salary with NYC. Utah come up to to approximately 75% of NYC, , which is the "most expensive on Planet Earth" as well!

75% of NYC salary can buy a whole lot of house in Utah!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

kingslug said:


> yes and my wife is a VP..so I doubt we will make mid 6 figures combined or anywhere near it. I'm at the top of the game in the union..not happening in Utah..


Well, you probably know my opinion on Union salaries, which is how I guessed given your odd financial statement, but then you're destined to live your life right where you are, because Union salaries are not economically rational & we're now at a tipping point whereby even those pushing the Union salaries pretty much know the gig is up (no pun intended).  My state is going to go bankrupt for sure due to unsustainable finances with literally billions (NOT a typo) of completely unfunded Union obligations.  My wife quit her Union 2 years ago (Thank you SCOTUS!), which is only exacerbating the "problem".


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## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

Depends on the industry.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> 75% of NYC salary can buy a whole lot of house in Utah!



Depends where, and I'm gathering not as much as you think, unless you want to live in one of the less "hot" areas.  West SLC suburbs, south SLC suburbs, north suburbs, etc...?  Sure, that's correct.  But even a 1970s Brady Bunch ranch someplace like Cottonwood Heights or Holladay probably goes for $550,000 & up, and that is a trade DOWN from the homes in the NYC suburbs.

And a really nice house on the Wasatch Back?  Not so much.  You're looking at $650,000 to $1M, which is about the same as where I live in a NYC suburb.  And sure as hell not in Park City.  Even crappy homes (and I mean crappy) on the outskirts of Park City go for $650,000, and they're likely not homes you'd want to buy.  Fixer-upper (or worse) stuff.  Utah prices have increased dramatically in the last few years.  It's not financially sustainable versus the salaries there IMO, but like I said, the ex-factor that confuses me is how many rich people and or people "fleeing" California are moving there to absorb this hit.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> when I look at Utah wages I struggle to understand how the typical family can afford the $500,000 to $800,000 homes, let alone the seemingly booming $1M+ cohort.


Simple.

The WFH crowd bring their big city salaries to Utah! (plus the proceed from the sale of their east coast home too)

Every couple years, I go ski Park City and hang out with my buddy from way back east. They moved out there when PC was still The Canyons. They brought with them a 2-income family with east coast income levels. So yep, they're in one of them 1M+ houses in Park City.

The couple who relocated last year have a combined income in the low 6 figures. No trouble affording any decent house their heart's desire.

What you think of "typical family" doesn't quite reflect the new comers.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> The couple who relocated last year have a combined income in the low 6 figures. No trouble affording any decent house their heart's desire.
> 
> What you think of "typical family" doesn't quite reflect the new comers.



To me, combined _"low 6 figures"_ isnt that much money when I look at the pricing of the homes in the area.  Especially not the Park City area you're specifically referencing, and certainly not _"any decent home of their heart's desire"_, unless they want to be house poor. The "decent" homes in Park City start at $800,000. I think your knowledge of Utah home prices is dated, as the prices have really EXPLODED the last few years, literally doubling (or more) in some areas.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Especially not the Park City area you're specifically referencing


I "specifically referenced" it for the couple who moved there a few years back

Not everyone even wants to live in the Park City area. The drive into SLC in winter was terrible. The newly relocated couple I "referenced" work and live in south suburb of SLC, aka "tower crane farm" in your words. Yes, "any house their heart desired" in that area at low 6 figure income!!!

You're only reading what confirming your believe, not what was written.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> *The newly relocated couple I "referenced" work and live in south suburb of SLC*, aka "tower crane farm" in your words. Yes, "any house their heart desired" in that area at low 6 figure income!!!
> 
> *You're only reading what confirming your believe, not what was written.*



Ironic statement on your part given I literally stated that homes in the south suburb of SLC are cheaper, and that's it's not a "hot" area where people moving there generally want to live (SEE: Post #91).  That's what "was written".  If you really can afford to live anywhere in the area so easily, my guess is most new Utah arrivals are not choosing to live in a south SLC suburb.

And that Lehi'ish area, which is roughly what you're describing is mostly smaller homes stacked like cordwood on top of each up going up quickly, and I'm guessing likely not of the greatest construction.  You can have that if you like, but the people from "NYC suburbs" you previously mentioned would likely be in a huge home "downgrade" to live in one of those.  The NYC suburbs are quite wealthy, and are mostly pretty nice homes.


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## jimk (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Depends where, and I'm gathering not as much as you think, unless you want to live in one of the less "hot" areas.  West SLC suburbs, south SLC suburbs, north suburbs, etc...?  Sure, that's correct.  But even a 1970s Brady Bunch ranch someplace like Cottonwood Heights or Holladay probably goes for $550,000 & up, and that is a trade DOWN from the homes in the NYC suburbs.
> 
> And a really nice house on the Wasatch Back?  Not so much.  You're looking at $650,000 to $1M, which is about the same as where I live in a NYC suburb.  And sure as hell not in Park City.  Even crappy homes (and I mean crappy) on the outskirts of Park City go for $650,000, and they're likely not homes you'd want to buy.  Fixer-upper (or worse) stuff.  Utah prices have increased dramatically in the last few years.  It's not financially sustainable versus the salaries there IMO, but like I said, the ex-factor that confuses me is how many rich people and or people "fleeing" California are moving there to absorb this hit.


@thetrailboss would know the housing market better than me.  The market is hot out there, but the hotness is quite targeted to the most desirable foothill or mountain locations.  In the SL valley it's crazy how prices can change/drop practically every block the further you move west away from the mtns.  My son lives in one of those Brady Bunch houses you speak of.  When he moved to SLC in 2015 it probably valued at 250k, when he bought it in 2017 it was about 315.  Now it's valued around 450.  I have toyed with the idea of permanently relocating out there, but while I procrastinate my house back east is appreciating at similar rate.

PS:  a valley local gave me some interesting food for thought last year about living in the SL Valley vs. the back Wasatch.  If you have other things in life than just skiing (eg golf, biking, gardening, hiking), the warmer spring-summer-falls in the valley are more enjoyable than the shorter summers in the back Wasatch/Park City.


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## kingslug (Dec 8, 2020)

Plus its nice if you can afford a neighborhood high enough to beat the smog.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Lehi'ish area, which is roughly what you're describing is mostly smaller homes stacked like cordwood on top of each up going up quickly, and I'm guessing likely not of the greatest construction.  You can have that if you like, but the people from "NYC suburbs" you previously mentioned would likely be in a huge home "downgrade" to live in one of those.  The NYC suburbs are quite wealthy, and are mostly pretty nice homes.


You're putting your own value system onto others.

The couple I "referenced" were Millennials. They EMBRACE the "smaller homes stacked like cordwood on top of each"!!!

In fact, the couple who ended up in Park City (no, not the "Wasatch back") also dislike the 6 bedroom "typical Utah" houses! Majority SLC houses are way big because Mormons have big families. The transplants by and large hate the wasted space!!!

I live in Westchester. Your "NYC suburb"! The housing stock here varies considerably when you move from village to village. Often time within the village, there're very many different type of housing stock. I know first hand it's not what you describe!

Your reference point is seriously flawed.


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