# Magic Mountain ...



## polski (Mar 24, 2009)

... may be trying to pull a rabbit out of its hat, sad to say, judging by a report posted on TGR this evening: Supposedly the company president has emailed people saying they're trying to go co-op (a la MRG) and need to sell 300 shares in the next 90 days at $3-5k apiece to stay afloat next season. Awfully tough time to try to raise that kind of money (I'd love to help but can't even think about this) and though it has a stellar rep as a hardcore skiers' mountain, not sure it has the kind of built-in community that MRG did when they went co-op -- especially after going through various owners and a period of being closed.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2009)

Hope it works out.  Would be cool to see another area pull off what MRG did instead of just putting up condos or some other real estate to raise cash.


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## riverc0il (Mar 24, 2009)

I heard rumor about this potentially happening earlier this season. Was holding out hope that it was just a potential worst case scenario option and not actually going to happen. Mad River Glen was in a much different place than Magic is currently when it went co-op and as polski mentioned, has a much deeper community base and significantly more die hards. I wish Magic all the best in trying to pull this off, but that is a big price tag on uncertainty and significantly higher cost than a Mad River share. Even if I was a Magic die hard, I don't know if I would want to take that type of financial risk.


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## jrmagic (Mar 24, 2009)

Its 90 days frm when the offer is made which has not happened yet. I'm not sure there is quite the same base as MRG but there are plenty of families like mine that have been skiing here for a long time many of whom own property locally to make it work. I agree the timing sucks but the state of the economy is one of the major reasons he was not able to attract capital in the first place. 

Discounted season passes and limited discounted daily tix for friends and family provides good incentive for those who can raise the cash.


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## bvibert (Mar 24, 2009)

Wow!  I hope Magic the best!  I'd REALLY hate to see that place go under. 

Hopefully they can work something out, whether it be the co-op thing , or something else.


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## 2knees (Mar 24, 2009)

whatever happens, magic needs to survive one way or another.  If it means closing for a few years until things rebound economically, then so be it.  but its a ski area like no other and if its gone for good, then we all lose big time. 300 shares at 3-5k in this environment is hard to fathom but stranger things have happened.


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## jamesdeluxe (Mar 25, 2009)

I searched on the TGR forums but couldn't find anything.  Could you post a link?


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## roark (Mar 25, 2009)

jamesdeluxe said:


> I searched on the TGR forums but couldn't find anything. Could you post a link?


 http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2322501&postcount=6400


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## Angus (Mar 25, 2009)

I skied there Sunday for the first time and as earlier reported it was definitely limited terrain and variable conditions. With that said, looking over into the west-side area; it is easy to see why people rave about the place - trails looked steep and narrow. With that said, doesn't this kind of terrain need to be located in a snow belt where the trails are consistently refreshed? 126" posted on their website just doesn't work IMO. I've heard the area has limited access to water which makes extended snow making difficult. The flip-side is between okemo, stratton, and bromley; there is a density of skiers looking for alternatives. Being somewhat familiar with the history here, my impression after the visit was the new ownership was trying to do alot of things on a very tight budget. Everything looked...well, run-down. And, I'm not trying to be negative or mean. The people were super nice - especially the guys running the lifts. What I guess I may be trying to say is, there is a potential co-op plan that raises somewhere in the vicinity of $1-1.5mm but does that really provide the capitalization necessary to modernize and create the facilities for a sustainable enterprise? Not sure, I know nothing about ski hill operations!


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## Greg (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Switzgable should buy it.


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## bvibert (Mar 25, 2009)

Greg said:


> Bob Switzgable should buy it.



x 1 million

I'll sacrifice myself and move up there to help him run it.


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## Angus (Mar 25, 2009)

who's Bob Switzgable ?

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2303&dept_id=478843&newsid=20246613&PAG=461&rfi=9


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## bvibert (Mar 25, 2009)

Angus said:


> who's Bob Switzgable ?
> 
> http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=2303&dept_id=478843&newsid=20246613&PAG=461&rfi=9



That's him.


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## polski (Mar 26, 2009)

Magic is closed for the season. Hopefully only for the season.


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## vertmont (Mar 27, 2009)

*Source of water?*

Do they have a pond or a river or both? Is it a air water system or fan guns? I'm interested, may go down a take a look some time next week. If anyone has any info pass it on please. Hope something can happen, Magic is a awesome mountain.


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## jrmagic (Mar 27, 2009)

vertmont said:


> Do they have a pond or a river or both? Is it a air water system or fan guns? I'm interested, may go down a take a look some time next week. If anyone has any info pass it on please. Hope something can happen, Magic is a awesome mountain.




They have a pond. They were doing work to increase capacity up to 4x the current amount which would be filled from Lowell lake (the connection already exists).  If you go there you will see the pond on your right as you drive up the access road. To completely take advantage of the dozen or so fan guns I beleive there is sitll some 480V electrical work to be done.  I am not sure if that was completed or not. They also have an air/water system which has both fixed and portable nozzles. I know they have consulted with engineers on possible upgrades to the system though I dont know the details of those plans.


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## Beetlenut (Mar 27, 2009)

I thought I remember either last year or the year before, that they were doubling the size of their snow making containment pond to affect more snow making. I remember them having problems doing that, but thought they got that done eventually.


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## jrmagic (Mar 27, 2009)

They did ahve trouble and before they could work on the expansion they had some required repairs that needed to be completed first and I know that part was done.


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## roark (Mar 27, 2009)

Save Magic Mountain

When more info is available it'll probably be in the above thread first.


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## riverc0il (Mar 27, 2009)

Really sensible plan. Snow making, get the third lift built, Magic Carpet, and fix the Black and Red chairs. Everything else comes later. If they can get the snowmaking upgraded and get beginner lifts running, Magic will thrive. Experts alone can't support the mountain financially in the long term. And the dependability of snow making will likely triple skier visits, if not more.


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## polski (Mar 27, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Really sensible plan. Snow making, get the third lift built, Magic Carpet, and fix the Black and Red chairs. Everything else comes later.



Curious why the third lift ranks that high up the priority list. I've only been there twice so may well be missing something. Agreed on snowmaking being #1 (being more southerly and lower elevation, they can't get away with relying mainly on natural snowfall the way MRG usually can), and obviously the two existing lifts have to be dependable. But is additional uphill capacity a critical need, at least initially?


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## riverc0il (Mar 27, 2009)

Uphill capacity is definitely not needed. But a lift to service beginner and lower intermediate terrain would definitely be helpful in increasing skier visits, family visits, and revenues. Especially with full snow making on those lower slopes. True, Magic Carpet from the summit will bring a skier down to those same trails. But I think beginners and lower intermediates would appreciate a smaller lift as opposed to taking the full vertical of the mountain every run. At the least, it changes the perception of Magic from an "expert" hill by having a beginner and lower intermediate lift. Perception is a nasty thing when it is wrong, but it is there.


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## bvibert (Mar 27, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Uphill capacity is definitely not needed. But a lift to service beginner and lower intermediate terrain would definitely be helpful in increasing skier visits, family visits, and revenues. Especially with full snow making on those lower slopes. True, Magic Carpet from the summit will bring a skier down to those same trails. But I think beginners and lower intermediates would appreciate a smaller lift as opposed to taking the full vertical of the mountain every run. At the least, it changes the perception of Magic from an "expert" hill by having a beginner and lower intermediate lift. Perception is a nasty thing when it is wrong, but it is there.



That's my take on it too.  By having that extra lift it almost makes a separate pod just for the beginners/intermediates.  I'd definitely put snowmaking at the head of the list though.


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## jrmagic (Mar 28, 2009)

IMO snowmaking is definitely number 1 and then some sort of lift behind the condos to serve the original beginner terrain is next though I think they should start with some less expensive type of surface lift like a poma over there or even move the rope tow.


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## billski (Apr 1, 2009)

One of the ways that MRG keeps its operating expenses down is expressly by not having snowmaking save for the beginner's slope.  MRG gets 140" and Magic gets 110" of snowfall average.  MRG base/summit el is 1600/3637, Magic is 1150/2850.  Those factors, plus MRG being much further north suggest to me that snowmaking is pretty much a necessity, which means added expense.  I would imagine you'd need to chip in a substantially larger annual commitment as a shareholder too.  
The shares reportedly being offered for sale would only drum up about $1M.   Certainly the property and equipment is worth more than that I suspect.   I guess there would also be a separate majority shareholder.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 1, 2009)

MRG averages over 200 inches of snowfall per year..not 140


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## riverc0il (Apr 1, 2009)

billski said:


> One of the ways that MRG keeps its operating expenses down is expressly by not having snowmaking save for the beginner's slope.  MRG gets 140" and Magic gets 110" of snowfall average.


Those numbers seem really off. I would have to imagine that Magic gets as much if not more snow than Cannon/Loon which come in around 160-170. MRG without a doubt gets more. Should that be 240" for MRG?


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## 2knees (Apr 1, 2009)

polski said:


> Curious why the third lift ranks that high up the priority list. I've only been there twice so may well be missing something. Agreed on snowmaking being #1 (being more southerly and lower elevation, they can't get away with relying mainly on natural snowfall the way MRG usually can), and obviously the two existing lifts have to be dependable. But is additional uphill capacity a critical need, at least initially?




i think finishing the green lift should be way way way down the list of priorities.  snowmaking, snowmaking and more snowmaking would be 1.  getting the red chair to be reliable and the black as an alternative would be second and having a real learning area would be 3rd.  I dont know what good another lift that serves the same terrain as the current lift is when you dont have a true beginner lift to begin with.  A rope tow for never evers or young children simply doesnt work in this day and age.  and the green line wouldnt be an alternative to that.  you need a magic carpet or a slow and low beginner lift first.


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## Geoff (Apr 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> MRG averages over 200 inches of snowfall per year..not 140



I'd expect they're closer to 250" just like everybody else from KMart on north.  They're 500 feet lower so they don't get quite as much upslope effect as the 4000-footers.


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## bvibert (Apr 2, 2009)

2knees said:


> i think finishing the green lift should be way way way down the list of priorities.  snowmaking, snowmaking and more snowmaking would be 1.  getting the red chair to be reliable and the black as an alternative would be second and having a real learning area would be 3rd.  I dont know what good another lift that serves the same terrain as the current lift is when you dont have a true beginner lift to begin with.  A rope tow for never evers or young children simply doesnt work in this day and age.  and the green line wouldnt be an alternative to that.  you need a magic carpet or a slow and low beginner lift first.



I agree, those other things need to be done first, but I still say that having the green lift would be cool for lower intermediates and novices.  You need to fix the other things to get people to come to the mountain first though.


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## bvibert (Apr 2, 2009)

billski said:


> The shares reportedly being offered for sale would only drum up about $1M.   Certainly the property and equipment is worth more than that I suspect.   I guess there would also be a separate majority shareholder.



The 300 shares are just what is need to get them off the ground for next season.  They'll need more as time goes on.  IIRC it took a long time for the MRG Co-op to sell enough shares to completely buy out Betsy.


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## Geoff (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't see how Magic can possibly make it.  It's not MRG where you can run without snowmaking.  The MRG co-op owns the mountain.  Magic is on leased land.  The only way you could make the place viable is if you owned the land outright and were able to build enough condos to fund the infrastructure improvements to have 100% snowmaking.


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## loafer89 (Apr 2, 2009)

After reading talk here about the difference in snowfall between Magic and Mad River Glen I will say from personal observations that right now there is more natural snow at lower elevations in Southern Vermont than there is at the lower elevations of Sugarbush/Mad River Glen.

The Mad River Valley was for the most part snowless last weekend, while the area around Stratton this week had snowcover, though it is spotty. That said, the area around Magic looked snowless from what I could see from the summit of Stratton, while Stratton had 2-4" of new snow this week nearly to the base.

Magic is only 1,400' at the base, while Bromley is 1,950' and Stratton is 1,872', this may not seem like alot, but it makes the difference between rain or snow in the early and late season time frame. Magic's relatively low base elevation makes snowmaking very important.


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## billski (Apr 2, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Those numbers seem really off. I would have to imagine that Magic gets as much if not more snow than Cannon/Loon which come in around 160-170. MRG without a doubt gets more. Should that be 240" for MRG?



Agreed.  my original source, SkiTown has been updated since I first scarfed that data three years ago.  It now states:
MRG 250
MM 180


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## loafer89 (Apr 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I agree, those other things need to be done first, but I still say that having the green lift would be cool for lower intermediates and novices. You need to fix the other things to get people to come to the mountain first though.


 
The green chair is the source of a running joke with my son as when we started skiing at Magic together in 2004 it was not finished and it's still not done in 2009. I tell my son it will be done when he's in College and he is only 9 years old:smile:

What was most disheartening was to pass by Magic in early December when it was butt cold and see absolutely NO snowmaking going on. My inner self said, uh oh, not taking advantage of a good stretch of cold weather to ensure skiing for Christmas.


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## 2knees (Apr 2, 2009)

billski said:


> Agreed.  my original source, SkiTown has been updated since I first scarfed that data three years ago.  It now states:
> MRG 250
> MM 180



no way in hell magic gets 180" of snow on average.  

Bromley lists 145" on their own site and they sit higher up.


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## jrmagic (Apr 2, 2009)

billski said:


> One of the ways that MRG keeps its operating expenses down is expressly by not having snowmaking save for the beginner's slope.  MRG gets 140" and Magic gets 110" of snowfall average.  MRG base/summit el is 1600/3637, Magic is 1150/2850.  Those factors, plus MRG being much further north suggest to me that snowmaking is pretty much a necessity, which means added expense.  I would imagine you'd need to chip in a substantially larger annual commitment as a shareholder too.
> The shares reportedly being offered for sale would only drum up about $1M.   Certainly the property and equipment is worth more than that I suspect.   I guess there would also be a separate majority shareholder.




IIRC Magic's annual snowfall is somewhere north of 170 inches however snowmaking is still imperative. They are looking to sell 300 shares in the first 90 days which would be 900grand.Over 3-4 years they hope to be able to sell 1200-1500 total shares. It looks like they are also dropping the annual commitment from the plan with the thought that coop members will have to purchase their passes by a certain date each year to give them early off season revenue.


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## riverc0il (Apr 2, 2009)

2knees said:


> no way in hell magic gets 180" of snow on average.


I 100% disagree. That sounds right on point. They seem to get more than Cannon which as I mentioned before is in the 160-170 range. I think 180" for Magic sounds exactly right. If Bromley is reporting 140", I think either they may be under reporting or Magic has more favorable blow in.


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## jrmagic (Apr 2, 2009)

For those that are interested here is the latest letter that was sent out about the coop.



Dear Friends of Magic:



Thank you all for your review of my letter last week in which I introduced the concept of co-operative ownership of Magic.  I am encouraged by the number and the tenor of the responses.  I understand that further details need to be presented in order for many of you to make a commitment to purchasing shares, and the purpose of this letter is to answer many of the specific inquiries which have been posed.  In addition, in short order I will present a business plan, a five year budget, and a list of capital projects and the associated costs.  As always, I appreciate your input, commentary, and questions, and I am hopeful that you all will continue to provide them.



There have been a number of questions regarding the purchase price per share and how the money would be spent.  After reviewing the comments about the purchase price, especially considering the current economic times, my inclination is to price the shares at $3000 in order to make the co-op affordable to a larger number of people.  Those with the wherewithal to purchase multiple shares are free to do so, and we would encourage that practice.  Additionally, in order to reach as many interested parties as possible, we will consider allowing payment plans whereby a purchaser could put 10% down ($300) and thereafter make monthly payments of $75 for three years.  There would be a small amount of interest due from those who choose the payment plan.  The co-op will not be viable if everyone chose this option, so I am hopeful that only those with the need to spread out the payments would purchase a share on the payment plan.  



In terms of how the money will be deployed, as you will recall, the threshold for moving forward rests at 300 shares which would generate $900,000.  First, let me state that any money collected from shares sold would be held in an escrow account until there is a definitive determination that the co-op will in fact move forward.  There will be no co-mingling of co-op funds with those of my LLC which is running the mountain nor with those of the current ownership.  If per chance the co-op does not proceed, then all money will be refunded immediately.  The first $300,000 would need to go to the current ownership in order to effectuate a purchase and transfer title.  The co-op would be purchasing all assets including but not limited to land, buildings, infrastructure, and equipment.  The current ownership would then hold a note or perhaps preferred equity for the remainder of the purchase price.  A question has been raised as to why the co-op would purchase the mountain right away.  The reason for doing so is to assure that the co-op holds title to the property and therefore collateral to secure the money invested.  After transfer of title, the co-op would be left with $600,000 from the co-op share sales to put into improvements and operations.  This figure is over and above the revenue generated by the mountain which in the first year should fall between $600,000 and $700,000.  My recommendation for the first off season improvements (this summer and fall) would be to put $400,000 into capital improvements devoted to snowmaking upgrades, repair and maintenance of the groomer, and to assuring that both the Red and Black chairs are operational at the outset of the season.  We would then have $200,000 remaining to combine with revenues to ensure proper operation of the mountain which would include a dedicated amount for early season snowmaking.  I am putting the finishing touches on a budget and revised business plan which will outline in detail the costs of operations, projected revenues, and capital expenditures for the next five years.  It will be important to sell more than 300 shares, as that figure only represents the amount required to get the co-op off the ground and get the mountain open next season with some snowmaking and operational improvements.  In order to implement a schedule of capital improvements, substantially more shares need to be sold and the goal should be 1200 shares sold by year three and 1500 by year five.



In terms of improvements, there is near consensus that snowmaking must be the number one priority.  The focus on snowmaking has caused some to express concern that we are trying to mimic other southern Vermont resorts thereby eliminating some of Magic’s uniqueness.  I want to assure you all that the thinking behind improving the snowmaking is to insure that the unique aspects of Magic, the terrain and the trails, are available on a more consistent basis.  We are not trying to make Magic a different place; we are only trying to make it more reliable.  We need to avert the possible closure of the mountain after a mid-season thaw, and we need to assure that there will be skiing/riding available during Christmas week.  We must be able to assure the ski clubs which book trips and races that we will have adequate coverage.  In short, snowmaking is a necessary reality in order for the mountain to be economically viable.  At the same time, we will maintain the spirit of being different, and nothing will change our classic terrain.



In terms of lifts, we need to assure that the Red and Black chairs are operational, as it is mandatory to have a back-up lift to the summit and a means to alleviate lift lines on busy days.  With respect to finishing the third chair which would access intermediate terrain there has been some debate.  The arguments in favor of completion focus on being able to open earlier and on the fact that the lift is 75% complete and finishing it just makes sense rather than scraping something so close to completion into which substantial money has already been invested.  This lift would also provide faster access to the race hill and prevent racers from having to ride to the top of the mountain which in turn would free up the Red Chair on race days.  Those against it point out that it is not needed from an uphill capacity standpoint and that money should be spent elsewhere.  In sum, it is not on the top of the list from a capital improvements standpoint, but it would probably be worthwhile completing in year two or three if revenues warrant it.  Finally, revival of the former beginner area and installation of a Magic Carpet has been well received by many, most of who remember the days when it was in operation.  It seems like a good idea, as Magic’s current beginner area is not ideal and is served by a handle tow which is often difficult for young kids and rank beginners to negotiate.



Many have commented on the benefits to the shareholders and have questioned the $250 mandatory spending requirement.  Again, the primary benefit is that the mountain is preserved and continues in a much more stable and reliable fashion.  Additionally, more tangible benefits include an ownership interest in the property, a discounted season pass and a limited number of discounted tickets.  In response to some suggestions, I would be amenable to increasing the number of discounted lift tickets available to shareholders from five to ten.  This could provide incentive for shareholders to invite friends and perhaps attract them as regulars.  With respect to the $250 spending requirement, this was adopted from Mad River and is in place in order to assure a minimum level of income before the season in order to get the mountain open.  I think we could eliminate this requirement and not adversely affect the revenue stream.  In most cases, the shareholders will be season pass holders, and therefore instead of requiring a minimum purchase which most would apply to their pass purchase, we could simply set a date as to when the shareholder discounted passes must be purchased and accomplish the same goal (early season revenue).  For those shareholders who are not pass holders and who generally would not be spending $250 at Magic, there would be no requirement to purchase anything.  Eliminating the purchase requirement would remove any additional financial requirements attached to being a shareholder and hopefully encourage the participation of those who might not regularly spend money at Magic annually. 



Many of you have inquired whether these letters should be shared with others.  We are trying to spread the word, and anything that you all can do to assist us is appreciated, so yes, please forward this and the previous letter and anything further to parties you think might be interested.  Please also suggest that they contact us and request to be added to the e-mail list.  Additionally, I have no objection to my communications being posted on web-sites or blogs.  Those forums often provide opinions outside of the inner Magic circle which are important to consider, and again hopefully such postings will attract some aficionados with whom we have not been in contact.



As stated above, I will soon be posting a business plan with specific budgets for everyone to review.  Again, I am appreciative of the comments and questions provided, and I encourage you to keep them coming.  I intend for this offering to be transparent and understandable and reflective of the wishes of the potential shareholders.  In that regard, I am happy to speak with or reply to e-mails from anyone, so feel free to communicate with me at any time.  Thank you all for your interest and support.



Sincerely,



Jim Sullivan

President

Magic Mountain


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## bvibert (Apr 2, 2009)

jrmagic said:


> For those that are interested here is the latest letter that was sent out about the coop....



Thanks for posting that.  A lot of questions answered there.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 2, 2009)

Those numbers are likely for the upper mountain..it would be interesting to see average snowfalls for base areas..J.Spins stats from his house in Waterbury are interesting..


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## polski (Apr 2, 2009)

bvibert said:


> The 300 shares are just what is need to get them off the ground for next season.  They'll need more as time goes on.  IIRC it took a long time for the MRG Co-op to sell enough shares to completely buy out Betsy.



MRG Coop formed December 1995; 1,667th share sold (at $1500 per) and mortgage paid off in April 1998, per history and board minutes on the MRG site. Of course those were the roaring '90s, and as discussed here earlier there are other differences between the MRG and Magic communities (though one advantage Magic has, if played right, is closer proximity to NYC metro area).




Geoff said:


> The MRG co-op owns the mountain.  Magic is on leased land.  The only way you could make the place viable is if you owned the land outright and were able to build enough condos to fund the infrastructure improvements to have 100% snowmaking.



Per the letter jrmagic posted, Jim Sullivan now has made clear the first $300k of share revenue would go toward purchasing the mountain & facilities outright, though to my knowledge he hasn't said yet what the total purchase price would be. 

While I agree it's essential that a co-op own the mountain sooner or later, I think relying on condos would be a mistake for bunch of reasons, particularly in this economic environment but even in better times. Part of what makes Magic special is it doesn't have massive slopeside development. I also see no need for 100% snowmaking -- it'll be expensive enough just to get their snowmaking to a subsistence level. Magic's hard core (most likely to buy shares) will, like MRG shareholders, understand when blacks have to be closed for insufficient natural snow. One of the main things Magic needs is to be able to make money under pretty much any conditions during the make-or-break holiday weeks, even if only the East side is open.

I'll be curious to see further details from Sullivan for the capital and operational expenses that will be required for subsistence snowmaking. Seems to me that will be a tough nut to crack.



billski said:


> I guess there would also be a separate majority shareholder.



Not sure how if that would work if there's also a cooperative. I know at MRG an individual can buy no more than four shares, so nobody gains undue influence within the coop. That must be an MRG thing but from my initial glance at VT cooperative law I see it says "Each shareholder shall have only one vote in all matters pertaining to the management of the corporation" and "Not more than ten percent of the capital stock of such corporation shall be owned by any one member." Other sections do say stock may be divided into preferred and one or more common classes but preferred stock has no voting privileges.


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## marcski (Apr 2, 2009)

So, where does the Co-op leave Jim Sullivan?  Will he or his LLC have an ownership interest in addition to being the owner of (a) share(s)?  Will he or his LLC have an agreement to run the mountain?  

How will the mountain be run under the co-op?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but at MRG, the Co-op votes in a board of trustees who then run the mountain day to day.


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## polski (Apr 3, 2009)

marcski said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but at MRG, the Co-op votes in a board of trustees who then run the mountain day to day.



The co-op votes in a board which oversees paid management & staff.


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 8, 2009)

I was surprised to learn that Magic had only 16,000 skier visits this past winter. I think some lodging at the base would be important as there is not alot of lodging in the Londonderry area whereas by comparison in the MRV there is alot. When MRG opened,  4 inns were built and opened on Rt 17. The Garrison, Hyde-Away, Mad River Barn, not sure about the fourth, maybe the Millbrook Inn.

I would think getting people to pony up is a tough sell until the snowmaking pond issue is resolved.


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## skiadikt (Apr 8, 2009)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I was surprised to learn that Magic had only 16,000 skier visits this past winter. I think some lodging at the base would be important as there is not alot of lodging in the Londonderry area whereas by comparison in the MRV there is alot. When MRG opened,  4 inns were built and opened on Rt 17. The Garrison, Hyde-Away, Mad River Barn, not sure about the fourth, maybe the Millbrook Inn.
> 
> I would think getting people to pony up is a tough sell until the snowmaking pond issue is resolved.



yikes! that's a saturday at killington. very sad. thought they were doing better than that.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 8, 2009)

blue mountain does 300k..wow..they need snowmaking..better lifts..lodging and some marketing..maybe the Okemo folks can buy Magic..


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## 2knees (Apr 8, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> blue mountain does 300k..wow..they need snowmaking..better lifts..lodging and some marketing..maybe the Okemo folks can buy Magic..




You've skied all over, have you ever hit magic?


This whole thing has been bugging me for 2 weeks now.  Most of us had heard about the possibility of going co-op long before it was announced.  But the possibility of next ski season with no Magic is really lousy.  Times are tough in general, but the majority of this population seems to have survived rather well.  We're still skiing, correct?  

We should do something to save the one true mtn left in vermont other then MRG.  Come up with ideas cause every little bit helps, monetarily or creatively.  Shares can be purchased by alpinezoners.


cue the questions for the short and long term business plan.....


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## tekweezle (Apr 9, 2009)

this season, good snow had pretty much trumped bad economy.  if not for this ill timed spring conditions weather pattern, this season was shaping up to be pretty good here in the northeast.  

unfortunately, you can't rely solely on mother nature in the snow starved parts.  snow making would atleast put Magic atleast approaching par with it;s neighbors.


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## faceplant (Apr 9, 2009)

'We are pleased to note that the initial response has been very encouraging'

Email frm Magic on 4/6-


Magic Mtn. Alpine Update
Thank you all for your support of Magic this season.  Mother nature played a few tricks early on, but by January we hit our stride, and the natural snow combined with the snow making efforts produced a very enjoyable season on the slopes.  We are appreciative of the devotion and enthusiasm  of all who patronize Magic, and we are looking forward to the future with optimism. 
In terms of the future, many of you have recently received two letters outlining our pursuit of establishing a co-op at Magic similar to the model at Mad River Glen.  We are pleased to note that the initial response has been very encouraging, and we are in the process of putting together a formal offering.  The business plan and budget will soon be available for review and comment, so please keep an eye out for them in your in-box or at www.magicmtn.com.  For those of you who did not receive the first two letters, they will be posted on our web-site by 4/7/09.  We will add all recipients of the Alpine Update to the co-op e-mail list, and we ask that you help spread the word about the co-op as far and wide as possible.  Anyone who is not on the Alpine Update list and is interested in participating or is simply curious should contact us at info@magicmtn.com, and we will add them to the co-op e-mail distribution. 

We are excited about the prospect of the co-op and are looking forward to working together with skiers, riders, and all other interested parties to stabilize and improve the mountain and to perpetuate the Magic experience for many years to come.  We look forward to working with you all in establishing a solid and successful future for this great mountain.  Thank you again for your support.




-keep your fingers crosed-


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## Geoff (Apr 10, 2009)

polski said:


> While I agree it's essential that a co-op own the mountain sooner or later, I think relying on condos would be a mistake for bunch of reasons, particularly in this economic environment but even in better times. Part of what makes Magic special is it doesn't have massive slopeside development. I also see no need for 100% snowmaking -- it'll be expensive enough just to get their snowmaking to a subsistence level. Magic's hard core (most likely to buy shares) will, like MRG shareholders, understand when blacks have to be closed for insufficient natural snow. One of the main things Magic needs is to be able to make money under pretty much any conditions during the make-or-break holiday weeks, even if only the East side is open.




You just explained why Magic did 16,000 skier visits this season.  You can't possibly operate Magic on a MRG budget since Magic doesn't get the reliable snow.  

Magic will always fail without snowmaking.  If the competition is near-100% open at Christmas, nobody is going to show up so Magic needs to be able to blow snow on just about everything.  To afford snowmaking, you need to provide attractions and terrain for the masses so you can sell enough day tickets.  If you go co-op and keep it the way it is with modest improvements to the snowmaking system, you're going to continue to see 16,000 skier visits and a constant bouncing in and out of financial crisis until the next group of suckers pour money in.  The location should be able to attract plenty of rich people to buy the slopeside trophy homes that would fund the capital improvements once the economy turns around.  With enlightened management, you wouldn't need to turn the hill into an overgroomed tilted dance floor.  You need the comfy base lodge, cushy lift, and the groomed McSkiing to pay the bills but you can leave enough of the hill alone to keep it's character.

A second living ski museum in Vermont would be a great thing but I just don't see how it is possible using private money given the natural snow issues in that microclimate.


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## riverc0il (Apr 10, 2009)

Geoff has a lot of good points and I also disagree with some of polski's points. Magic will never have enough shareholders that it can rely on them to keep the ski area profitable. Even MRG lives and dies by its day ticket sales from non-shareholders. But the difference is MRG has substantially more natural snow fall, fewer thaws, less rain, and generally better conditions and more days with good terrain open. Magic by comparison needs a snow made base to build on top of. Even natural snow fall trails should receive at least a minimum of snow making to set the base. Major trails not opening up until late January into February is not acceptable at any major mountain (excepting glades and the steepest of natural snow only trails such as Master.

Magic really needs to be looking at around 80% snow making coverage to be viable, IMO. I love the place, but I would have skied there 3x more when I lived in MA if they had a base. Not only is that a problem practically... but also the perception is even worse. Most people think they can't ski Magic unless it has snowed recently which is lame. The issue is you can't really ski the mountain with consistency until they have a base... which takes a long time to develop during most seasons (and gets washed away too quickly). 

I think selling some slopeside to get investment money for snow making would be a wise idea once the housing market kicks back into gear. A few more slopeside condos is not going to destroy the Magic base area and it could provide enough cash for snow making. The question is who will buy the units? When I moved into the Plymouth area, Tenney Mountain's condos were completely off my radar because who knows if the mountain will close and result in lowering of property values?

Ultimately, the whole thing is a chicken versus the egg issue. And ultimately, I think snowmaking will temporarily save Magic if it gets built and perhaps ultimately sink Magic if they need to borrow to do so.


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## faceplant (Apr 10, 2009)

With most areas goin year round, can magic offer any off season recreation?   hate to say it but i dont think thers much around there for condo owners, unless your talkin hiking/biking-  but most folks are probly looking for golf/tennis

doesnt Jake Burton have some connection to magic? 
if he dont want it to go under mebbe they could talk to him about some creative financin-
probly just pie in th sky tho


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## Angus (Apr 10, 2009)

here's a quick observation about snow making versus natural snow at MAGIC based on my one visit ever the 2nd to last day they were open this season. Riding up the chair lift and looking across to Stratton and Bromley, those two mountains were covered in clouds and it appeared to be snowing quite abit while at MAGIC, it was the occasional flurry and an even rarer snow burst which did not amount to anything on the ground. Looking at the pictures someone posted from the woods at Stratton yesterday, I was amazed. There was no where that much snow at the top of MAGIC 3 or 4 weeks ago. The additional 1,000' really seems to make a huge difference in actual snowfall and more importantly preservation.


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## marcski (Apr 10, 2009)

Angus said:


> here's a quick observation about snow making versus natural snow at MAGIC based on my one visit ever the 2nd to last day they were open this season. Riding up the chair lift and looking across to Stratton and Bromley, those two mountains were covered in clouds and it appeared to be snowing quite abit while at MAGIC, it was the occasional flurry and an even rarer snow burst which did not amount to anything on the ground. Looking at the pictures someone posted from the woods at Stratton yesterday, I was amazed. There was no where that much snow at the top of MAGIC 3 or 4 weeks ago. The additional 1,000' really seems to make a huge difference in actual snowfall and more importantly preservation.



I'm not so sure I really agree with this.  The elevation will make at most, some difference in the snowfall totals, but the three mountains, Stratton, Magic and Bromley probably are pretty similar in seasonal snowtotals.  Plus those glades at Stratton must get some blow-in from the snowmaking trails that flank the glades on either side.


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## billski (Apr 10, 2009)

*Magic co-owner Jim Sullivan passes away*

Just received via email.


April 10, 2009

Dear Friends of Magic:

I am writing to provide an update as to the progress on the co-op project and to inform those of you who have not yet heard of some sad news regarding one of the mountain’s most loyal supporters.

Larry Nelson, the managing partner of the current ownership group, passed away on April 4th.  Larry was a force in keeping the mountain operational since it re-opened in 1998.  He went to extraordinary lengths to preserve and support the mountain through difficult financial times, and Magic’s very existence today is attributable to Larry’s efforts over the years.  On behalf of the Magic family, I have extended our condolences to Larry’s wife Barbara and his five children.

With respect to the co-op, the response has been very positive, and we are engaged in the process of creating a formal offering.  A five year budget has been completed and the business plan on which the budget is premised is in the works.  I had been working with Larry Nelson on the details of completing the purchase of the mountain, and I will now be working with his family who are also ardent supporters.  The business plan and the budget are contingent upon solidifying an agreement with current ownership, and I will be discussing that with the Nelsons and the rest of the ownership group in the near future. Shortly thereafter I will report back to all of you and present the business plan and budget.  The process is complex and therefore has taken longer than I expected, as there are many details to work out.  Establishment of the co-op and a reasonable ownership/operations structure has my undivided attention, and I assure you all that the process is moving forward with the goal of issuing a formal offering as soon as possible.  As stated previously, I am happy to field any questions or comments in the interim.

Thank you for your continued support of and interest in Magic’s future.

Sincerely,

Jim Sullivan


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 10, 2009)

Regarding snowmaking even Cochrans Ski Hill which is north of Sugarbush realized that snowmaking was key to having a viable reliable ski season. It's at a very low elevation. They spent $400,000 which is alot for such a little hill but it was totally worth it for them.

Without snowmaking, not counting the 2 guns for the practice slope MRG has not be been able to be open or were barely open  2 out of the last 3 Xmas/New Year holiday weeks. I know many co-op members who would like that to change but know that at the moment it's not even on the table.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 13, 2009)

2knees said:


> You've skied all over, have you ever hit magic?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> The slow lifts and lack of snow has kept me away..it's tough for me to drive to Magic when I can go another 2 hours and hit Stowe with lots of snow and fast lifts..if I was a CLIT within daytrip range I'd hit the mountain..


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## tekweezle (Apr 13, 2009)

Magic needs something to differentiate them from the competition.  Else they will always lose the head to head competion with their well funded neighbors..

since they are a snow starved and in low elevation, maybe they should investigate night skiing and lighting up the terrain park and halfpipe at night.....atleast extended hours till about 6-8pm maybe.  no one else has that in VT to my knowledge and it could be a good start.


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## riverc0il (Apr 13, 2009)

Magic already has something the local competition doesn't have. Uncrowded slopes and challenging terrain. Also, I believe they tried night skiing once and it failed. I think Stowe recently reduced or completely cut their night skiing... showing that it is not a money maker... unless you have a captive local audience in the metro areas which is why Bolton can be successful with their night skiing program.


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## bvibert (Apr 13, 2009)

I agree, I doubt they would see enough action to make night skiing viable.  You'd need a large local base for that to be a success, I'd imagine.


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## thorski (Apr 13, 2009)

Who cares if magic closes.  They did it to themselves by having bad buisness forsight for the last 10 or so years. Strong mountains get stronger so who really cares about the others.  magic= lame


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## Brewbeer (Apr 13, 2009)

Magic isn't a lame mountain, it has great terrain and I hope they stay open.


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## 2knees (Apr 13, 2009)

Brewbeer said:


> Magic isn't a lame mountain, it has great terrain and I hope they stay open.



ehh, dont worry about thorwaystar.


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## thorski (Apr 13, 2009)

:flag:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 14, 2009)

bump..send ,magic your money


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## thorski (Apr 14, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> bump..send ,magic your money



No


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 15, 2009)

thorski said:


> No



yes


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## thorski (Apr 15, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> yes



BUY Quality NOT localism or nostagliaism --------------------- end of story.
x2
lmao


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## bvibert (Apr 16, 2009)

thorski said:


> BUY Quality NOT localism or nostagliaism --------------------- end of story.
> x2
> lmao



Magic has more quality than most other mountains I've skied, including K-Mart.


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## pepperdawg (Apr 16, 2009)

thorski said:


> BUY Quality NOT localism or nostagliaism --------------------- end of story.
> x2
> lmao



You're kidding right?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 16, 2009)

bump//send your $$$$ to Magic


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## faceplant (Apr 28, 2009)

*just got this-*




April 28, 2009



Dear Friends of Magic:



I want to briefly update you all as to the progress on the co-op front.  As one would expect, Larry Nelson’s passing has delayed the process somewhat.  However, I have had an ongoing dialogue with his children who are handling his affairs as well as other members of the current ownership, and I am meeting with them this week to determine if they will agree to my proposal to set up a co-operative ownership.  The Nelsons have been responsive to my reaching out, and therefore I am hopeful that we will make substantial progress at our meeting to the point where the details of the offering can be introduced to you all in short order.



I thank all of you who have communicated with me over the past few weeks and encourage anyone who has questions to forward them along.  I have received inquiries about season passes.  We are not selling them until we get the ownership and management structure in place.  I will say that we intend to hold the line on the prices, and you should expect to be able to make early season purchases on or about August 1.



Thank you all for your continued interest and you will be hearing from me again next week.



Sincerely,



Jim Sullivan


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Magic has more quality than most other mountains I've skied, including K-Mart.



You obviously haven't skied K-mart that much.
I've skied both, Kmart wins.


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## bobbutts (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> You obviously haven't skied K-mart that much.
> I've skied both, Kmart wins.


I've tried Pepsi and Orange Juice.. Pepsi wins!:smash:


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## bvibert (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> You obviously haven't skied K-mart that much.
> I've skied both, Kmart wins.



You obviously haven't skied Magic that much.
I've skied both, Magic wins.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

bvibert said:


> You obviously haven't skied Magic that much.
> I've skied both, Magic wins.



Thats like saying powder ridge is better then sundown. :razz:


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

bvibert said:


> You obviously haven't skied Magic that much.
> I've skied both, Magic wins.



I'd rather ski magic on a good over Killington hands down.

It all depends on what you're looking for.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 29, 2009)

send Magic your $$$$$$$$


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## bvibert (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Thats like saying powder ridge is better then sundown. :razz:



Nope, as noted above it's like saying that Orange Juice is better than Pepsi.

If you don't get why Magic is awesome then that's your problem, not mine.  Have fun at Killington.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Nope, as noted above it's like saying that Orange Juice is better than Pepsi.
> 
> If you don't get why Magic is awesome then that's your problem, not mine.  Have fun at Killington.



The lack of a small to medium sized half pipe at Magic must be his issue


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## billski (Apr 29, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Nope, as noted above it's like saying that Orange Juice is better than Pepsi.
> 
> If you don't get why Magic is awesome then that's your problem, not mine.  Have fun at Killington.



This is another one of those "religious" debates.   Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

For "some reason" people like the beach too.  I don't, but I don't try to convert them


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## bvibert (Apr 29, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> The lack of a small to medium sized half pipe at Magic must be his issue



I was thinking it, but refrained.


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## bvibert (Apr 29, 2009)

billski said:


> This is another one of those "religious" debates.   Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> For "some reason" people like the beach too.  I don't, but I don't try to convert them



I hear ya.  I don't think I'm trying to convert anyone, just voicing my opinion on something that I feel strongly about.


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## thorski (Apr 29, 2009)

Is magic open this weekend?


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## billski (Apr 29, 2009)

thorski said:


> Is magic open this weekend?



http://magicmtn.com/


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

Greg, moderators & everyone else.  I know this is bad form to post a bit of spam with my 1st post, however I ask you to leave this.

Please visit http://www.savemagicvermont.com/

We are selling T-shirts & stickers trying to raise money for Magic.  All profits from this site will head to Magic in the form of a share (hopefully 2) in the co-op.

If for some awful reason the co-op does not go through, all profits will go to charity.  I can assure I will not gain one penny from this.







Stickers will be up on site tomorrow.

Greg, myself & Matt gave you AZer's the full Magic tour last time you guys were there.

Thanks for reading.


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## 2knees (Apr 30, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> Greg, moderators & everyone else.  I know this is bad form to post a bit of spam with my 1st post, however I ask you to leave this.
> 
> Please visit http://www.savemagicvermont.com/
> 
> ...



this is perfect.  i cant do a share or half share but so wanted to do something to help out.  thanks for the info.


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## Greg (Apr 30, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> Greg, myself & Matt gave you AZer's the full Magic tour last time you guys were there.



Hey there. No worries. You're uppernot-something or other on Snowjournal, right? Also Greg, right? That was a great day!



Good luck with this endeavor.


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## snowmonster (Apr 30, 2009)

I'm too poor for a share but I'm down for a shirt and a sticker. Visited Magic twice this year. Awesome place and worth saving.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Apr 30, 2009)

Is there a possibility another ski resort will buy Magic?  Who currently owns Magic Mountain?


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## 2knees (Apr 30, 2009)

billski said:


> http://magicmtn.com/



that plane was so far over your head you never even saw it......


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## gmcunni (Apr 30, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


>



will the short sleeve version show above be available? i went to purchase and only saw long sleeve.


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

gmcunni said:


> will the short sleeve version show above be available? i went to purchase and only saw long sleeve.



Yes, I have no idea what is going on as they were on there yesterday.  Give it a few minutes & it should be corrected.  Be patient as the kinks are slowly being worked out.

Thanks guys.


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

In the meantime, i'll post some Magic stoke for you all to make up for my blatent spam & lack of website knowledge...





















Yes, Greg.  I'm Magic Greg in your vid.  Here i'm starting fresh as RustyGroomer. :beer:


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## 2knees (Apr 30, 2009)

any magic info/help/stoke is immensely welcome around here.

btw, i rode up the lift with you that day.  we had a nice conversation about torn acl's.....

not sure why i can remember stuff like that but not my wife's birthday.  :roll:


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## bvibert (Apr 30, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> Greg, moderators & everyone else.  I know this is bad form to post a bit of spam with my 1st post, however I ask you to leave this.
> 
> Please visit http://www.savemagicvermont.com/
> 
> ...



Awesome, thanks for posting!  Like the others, there's no way I could afford a share right now, but I do want to help out however I can.

I was there with Greg on the day you mention, thanks for the tour!  It was a great day, I was the guy slowly bringing up the rear all day.   However, that wasn't our last time there.

The website looks good, but I have a question; There doesn't seem to be anyway to choose a size for the t-shirts, are they all one size??


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

Short sleeves back up, sorry guys.

Logo close up.






For those who don't know it, this is the old logo from the 70's taken from my trail map.  Wanted to bring back the old school a bit.


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

Put the size in the notes field after you checkout.  Any question on size i will have your email info & contact you.

I have S,L,M,L,XL, XXL.  Short & long's.

Again stickers should be in today & on the site by tomorrrow.  I'm thinking an extra $5 will get you 3 stickers.

I'll gladly take orders for one shirt, but if @ all possible try to combine with friends.  Just makes it a bit easier on me & will cut down on shipping.  

Lastly, wear your shirts!!!  I wore mine all last weekend & could not believe how many comments I got.


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

*Anyone care to embed for me?*

http://www.vimeo.com/4386859


I cannot take credit for this.  My VT housemate/friend Orangegondola is behind this.  He just used my Vimeo accnt.  Enjoy.

Many people are responsible for everything that has been done so far.


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## bvibert (Apr 30, 2009)

Cool video!

I can't wait to get my shirt. :beer:


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## roark (Apr 30, 2009)

An oldy but goodie:


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## bvibert (Apr 30, 2009)

roark said:


> An oldy but goodie:



That was a great day, but watching the footage of me is painful.


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## MR. evil (Apr 30, 2009)

bvibert said:


> watching the footage of me is painful.



Now you know what's like for us that ski with you


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

Bvibert, thanks for the order.  It will go out tomorrow.

Good vid guys.  Roark, please take this as a big compliment.  Your skiing has improved tremendously since then.


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## 2knees (Apr 30, 2009)

more magic porn


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## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> Short sleeves back up, sorry guys.
> 
> Logo close up.
> 
> ...



Chair C is no longer there correct?  When and why was it removed?  That was the chair I got 'certified' for snowboarding on back in the mid-80's.  Seems like it was a good learning area on the mountain.


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## bvibert (Apr 30, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Chair C is no longer there correct?  When and why was it removed?  That was the chair I got 'certified' for snowboarding on back in the mid-80's.  Seems like it was a good learning area on the mountain.



Technically either is D.  What I find most interesting about that map is trail 9, Upper Magician, is rated as a square, which seems to be the easiest rating on that map.  That trail is now the double black Magian and is no where near being one of the easiest.  How could that be??


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## Greg (Apr 30, 2009)

bvibert said:


> That was a great day, but watching the footage of me is painful.



No kidding. Me not you. Holy moly. :roll:


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## thorski (Apr 30, 2009)

I thought that shirt looked like it was from 1991 and you just put  "mountain"  in the place of "johnson"


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

"C" Green chair is indeed gone & was a great beginner chair.  My first turns were there in 1978.  

"D" was the old T-bar up Showoff, also gone.  Not the current 1/2 installed triple that needs to be scrapped.

Trail ratings were different when that map was made.  I've seen the ratings online somewhere but it predates the black diamond, blue square, green circle days.

see www.chairlift.org for any chairlift info.  I'm sure you probably knew that but just in case...

spamming again.:-x


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## roark (Apr 30, 2009)

bvibert said:


> That was a great day, but watching the footage of me is painful.


 


Greg said:


> No kidding. Me not you. Holy moly. :roll:


 


RustyGroomer said:


> Roark, please take this as a big compliment. Your skiing has improved tremendously since then.


 
heh, when I watched I was thinking Greg and bvibert really improved: me not so much. so thanks.


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## RustyGroomer (Apr 30, 2009)

Nonsense Roark, I speak the truth.

2Knees, that guy in the 1st vid is killin' it.  Nice.


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## Greg (Apr 30, 2009)

From our visit this year:


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## RustyGroomer (May 1, 2009)

thorski said:


> I thought that shirt looked like it was from 1991 and you just put  "mountain"  in the place of "johnson"



Thank you for the amazing testimonial, he was truly one of the greats!

More Magic stoke. 

Dorf on skis...






Magical trees.


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## bvibert (May 5, 2009)

I got my shirt in the mail today.  Looks rad, can't wait to wear it! :beer:


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## RustyGroomer (May 6, 2009)

Thanks bvibert, glad you like.

Deadheadskier, there's a very good chance this man "certified" you on the old bunny hill.










My Magic housemate was the first to do so.


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## bvibert (May 12, 2009)

I wore my Save Magic Mountain shirt the other day, and also put the sticker that came with it on my car.  I never put stickers on my car, it's the only one. :beer:


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## gmcunni (May 12, 2009)

wore mine the other day. Jake and i had to go out around town for misc errands. I suggested he wear his too, he said NO WAY! NOT COOL!

ran into a friend of my wife who has house @ magic, they loved my shirt and couldn't understand why jake wouldn't wear his at the same time


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## RustyGroomer (May 12, 2009)

gmcunni said:


> wore mine the other day.  they loved my shirt....



Sounds like a 2 shirt order to me?  :grin:

bvibert, that's very cool.


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## djspookman (May 15, 2009)

*more MAGIC magic!*

1-black chair, day before opening day 2008
2-my brother on shorties about to nail me with that chunk-o-snow
3-fat tele skis on a rainy day
4-redline in April 2008
5-roark on Goniffs, 2007?


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## djspookman (May 15, 2009)

*more stoke....*

Magic loves tele......

1-sumo turn..
2-Goniffs dec 2008
3-goniffs dec 2008
4-bootin it 2009
5-tele Elle

yah, magic rocks, SAVE it.  'nuff said.


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## bvibert (May 15, 2009)

Nice stoke! :beer:


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## faceplant (May 15, 2009)

May 15, 2009

Dear Friends of Magic:

We are making progress with respect to the issuance of an offering to prospective shareholders. I have met with the Nelson family and have shared numerous correspondences and documents with them over the past couple of weeks in order to get them up to speed relative to both the current status of Magic as well as the direction we are trying to take it.  I am pleased to advise that the Nelsons and the rest of the current ownership, after considered review, are supportive of the concept of issuing shares in order to raise capital to keep Magic operating and improving.  Their cooperation in the plan is essential and appreciated because it enables us to put money raised toward improvements and operations as opposed to having to completely fund the purchase.  After payment of approximately $300,000 to the current ownership which is necessary in order to clear and transfer title, they have agreed to hold an equity position in the new entity as opposed to requiring a lump sum payment at closing or holding debt.  The technical aspects of a formal offering are complex, and we are working together to effectuate it as soon as possible.

One issue we have encountered is whether what we are trying to accomplish here actually fits within the guidelines provided by law under the co-op statutes. After reviewing the statute and consulting with attorneys we have determined that the new entity does not qualify as a co-op under the applicable statute.  That fact will not prevent us from moving forward, but we will need to create a different legal entity which in all likelihood will be an LLC with various classes of shares.  This will not change the basic tenants of the offering from a shareholder’s perspective.  We will be selling shares for $3000 which will be secured by an equity position in the mountain.  Shareholders will have a say in the overall philosophy and major decisions involving the mountain by way of shareholder meetings and a Board comprised of elected shareholders which will work with mountain management.  There will be other shareholder benefits such as a discounted season pass, discounted lift tickets for friends and family, and special access to management via an exclusive page on the web site.  

We are working diligently with the current ownership and attorneys to put this offering together.  Any proceeds from shares sold will initially be held in escrow until the critical threshold of 300 shares is met and the actual transfer of title to the new entity takes place. We have completed a five year budget together with a business plan which will be posted on the web site next week.

In the interim, a group of Magic faithful have created a website dedicated to preserving Magic Mountain.  Along with the website they are selling t-shirts with all proceeds going towards purchasing one and hopefully two shares in the new Magic Mountain ownership group.  I applaud their efforts and it is this passion for Magic Mountain that will ultimately lead to its success.  You can view their site at www.savemagicvermont.com.

I appreciate all of your patience with this process as it has taken longer than expected.    As stated previously, I am happy to field any questions and encourage you all to pose them.

Sincerely,

Jim Sullivan


----------



## thetrailboss (May 18, 2009)

The AP's *latest article on Magic and its offering.*  The title seems to make things sound dire...


----------



## Geoff (May 18, 2009)

faceplant said:


> We are working diligently with the current ownership and attorneys to put this offering together.  Any proceeds from shares sold will initially be held in escrow until the critical threshold of 300 shares is met and the actual transfer of title to the new entity takes place. We have completed a five year budget together with a business plan which will be posted on the web site next week.



That's always been my impression of what they're trying to do.  Unlike MRG, it's not a co-op.  You're buying shares in a corporation.  I'd be amazed if the people buying shares had any kind of control over the corporation.  I figure the odds of your investment vaporizing are very high.  If you blew it on hookers & blow, you'd at least have a case herpes for your money.


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jun 11, 2009)

More Magic stoke!











Drool....





181 T-shirts sold so far.  I have a lot more, keep the orders coming.  Thanks guys!


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jun 12, 2009)

*Update from Magic*

Jun 12, 2009

Dear Friends of Magic:

It has been a few weeks since my last update, and I wanted to touch base with you all and advise as to our progress.  We have made substantial headway and are close to selling shares.  As indicated previously, the money will be held in escrow until there is sufficient interest shown in order to assure that we will have the necessary financial wherewithal to proceed with this plan.  That being said, I am very pleased with the widespread support which has been exhibited, and I am confident that we will sell the requisite number of shares to move forward and improve the mountain and gear up for next season.  Needless to say, I am getting somewhat impatient with the process, but I remain excited and fully confident that we will be selling shares soon.  Perhaps my expectations in terms of the pace of the transaction were overly optimistic.  This is a complex process which not only involves various deals with current ownership, but also establishing a new company and the right to sell equity, and it simply takes time to reduce verbal agreements to written legal commitments especially when there are several parties involved.  An attorney with vast experience in the field of memorializing deals and private placement offerings has been retained for several weeks now, and we have been working hard with him to take care of the voluminous legal minutia associated with this process.

The business plan relative to how the capital raised and the operating revenues will be deployed has been completed for several weeks but it has yet to be formally published because it is to a degree contingent upon the other aspects of the deal.  By next week we will formally publish the business plan and associated budgets.  Simultaneously or shortly thereafter I am hoping that we will be able to sign up shareholders and take payments into the escrow account.  I understand that many of you cannot commit to purchasing a share until you review the business plan, but I urge you all to act quickly upon review of the plan and if you are interested in participating, please do so as soon as possible.  The sooner we achieve sufficient share sales, the sooner we can get down to business and begin preparing the mountain for the upcoming season.

I have spoken and shared e-mails with many of you, and have benefited greatly from your counsel.  The passion for this great mountain is apparent and strong, and I am confident that together we can make it work.  Again I encourage you all to spread our message far and wide and make efforts to recruit new or past Magic faithful to our cause.  Thank you for your support, your patience, and your enthusiasm.  As always, please contact me with any questions.  You will be hearing from me next week.

All the best,

Jim Sullivan
President


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jun 26, 2009)

Shareholder & business plan up on www.magicmtn.com

Please read.  Magic management worked very hard & put quite a bit of thought into this, feedback is welcome.


----------



## pepperdawg (Jun 29, 2009)

A good read....keeping fingers crossed...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 29, 2009)

I wish Magic all the luck in the world.  That said, there is nothing in that business plan that would make me want to part with $3000.  This would be the case even if I lived close enough to have Magic as a viable home mountain for myself.  It's a killer place, but do the math.  They NEED 1K shares sold to support 25K skier visits with possible growth to 35K.  Say, the average skier spends 5 days there a season (which I think is low), that would mean 1 out of every 5 to 7 people would be share holders.  I'd be curious to see what the percentage is at MRG, but those goals sound bat shit crazy to me.

I think the concept of a co-op is great and while it worked for MRG, I just don't see it happening at Magic.  There are ways to maintain the majority of a resort's sense of place and still incorporate the necessary real estate development to make it financially viable.  See Sugarbush and Saddleback as examples.  Yes, they've changed and aren't 'what they were', but a lot of the vibe still remains.

Don't mean to be harsh here and like I said, I really hope Magic succeeds. If they do, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong.  That said, if I was Mr. Sullivan, my goal would be trying to find development partners.  It's obviously a difficult economic climate to do this right now.   Perhaps he already is and is hoping to find one individual with deep pockets and is passionate about the area to purchase a hundred shares or so.


----------



## Masskier (Jun 29, 2009)

I haven't skied Magic in many years,  but have fond memories as a kid skiing there.  I hope it survives cause its a great option to ski rather than the other over crowded areas in Southern VT.  However I don't think that a 1,000 shares at $3,000 a share (3 million) is nearly enough of a investment into this mountain.  It seems to be more of a band aid and patches than real capital improvements.  ie.. $2,500 to repair roof.  How old is the roof that it needs repair?  Maybe it needs to be replaced.  I think much of the infrastructure needs to be replaced instead of repaired.


----------



## faceplant (Jul 3, 2009)

*independence day for Magic?*

July 3, 2009

Dear Friends of Magic:

The offering documents are completed and are posted on www.magicmtn.com.  The documents consist of a Private Placement Memorandum Form U-7 and a Subscription Agreement.  The Business Plan and Financials which were posted last week are incorporated in the Private Placement Memorandum via a link.  For anyone wishing to review hard copies of these documents, please contact us and we will be happy to mail them to you.

The process for purchase of a share is as follows: Review the Private Placement Memorandum and the Subscription Agreement, and if you have any questions, please contact us at the office via phone or e-mail.  If after a review of these documents you are prepared to make a purchase, print a copy of the Subscription Agreement, sign it and mail it in with a check.  As stated previously, all money collected will deposited in an escrow account until we hit our benchmark of 300 shares sold.

A brief word about the Private Placement Memorandum:  This is a document required by the Federal and State regulations and its purpose is to assure full disclosure in the offering.  Much of the verbiage duplicates that which you have encountered in the Business Plan.  You will notice in the PPM that the amount we are seeking to raise is $999,000 as opposed to the $3 million figure outlined in the Business Plan.  The reason for the difference is technical.  The Federal Rule under which we are raising the first $999,000 (Regulation D Rule 504) limits offerings to $1 million or less.  The reason we pursued this avenue is because it provided the fastest manner in which we could actually sell shares.  We will be following this initial offering with an offering which will allow us to raise the remaining $2 million, and we will coordinate it so that the transition will be seamless.

Thank you all for your interest.  We need to sell as many shares as we can right out of the gate in order to reach our threshold of three hundred and then begin putting the money to work.  I am optimistic that we will reach our goals, and I look forward to working with you all to improve and revitalize Magic. 

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any questions.  For those in the area this weekend, please remember the fireworks and live music tonight beginning at 7 PM, and more importantly, the Community Meeting on Sunday, July 5 at 11 AM to discuss and answer questions about The Magic Partnership. 

Sincerely,
Jim Sullivan
President


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jul 9, 2009)

Just bought my share stoke!


























I still have plenty of T-shirts & stickers for sale! www.savemagicvermont.com






Get yours today...


----------



## billski (Jul 9, 2009)

Rusty - YOU ARE SO CRUEL!


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jul 10, 2009)

The gloves are off billski.    Doing anything I can to help save Magic.  You can expect more Magic stoke all summer long.


----------



## billski (Jul 10, 2009)

No problem at all.  Whatever can be done to save a great place.


----------



## bvibert (Jul 10, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> You can expect more Magic stoke all summer long.



Awesome!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 10, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> I still have plenty of T-shirts & stickers for sale! www.savemagicvermont.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sure most of our AZ posters would ask if the girls come with the T-shirts or not......

:wink:


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 10, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> Just bought my share stoke!
> 
> 
> I still have plenty of T-shirts & stickers for sale! www.savemagicvermont.com
> ...



Giggity Giggity Goo...send them your money..


----------



## roark (Jul 10, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sure most of our AZ posters would ask if the girls come with the T-shirts or not......
> 
> :wink:


 
huh, all I see is some sweet vintage explosivs.


----------



## billski (Jul 10, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sure most of our AZ posters would ask if the girls come with the T-shirts or not......
> 
> :wink:


 
Um, they don't?  

Can you fix that? :-?


----------



## bvibert (Jul 10, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sure most of our AZ posters would ask if the girls come with the T-shirts or not......
> 
> :wink:



Mine came with one, but they didn't cut big enough ventilation holes in the box for her....  So all I ended up with was a smelly t-shirt.  And a funeral bill...  

The stink washed out after a couple washes though. :beer:


----------



## billski (Jul 10, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Mine came with one, but they didn't cut big enough ventilation holes in the box for her.... So all I ended up with was a smelly t-shirt. And a funeral bill...
> 
> The stink washed out after a couple washes though. :beer:


 
I thought there was a "sell by date" on each.  No?


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jul 13, 2009)

roark said:


> huh, all I see is some sweet vintage explosivs.









In action........











on Retro Day...


----------



## roark (Jul 13, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


>


 
I knew you had at least one pair but I thought Matt was the resident explosiv hoarder...


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jul 13, 2009)

Yeah we're both Explosiv junkies.  I just can't seem to say no when i find them.

Magic's future ripper......






Don't worry, he got better. :beer:


----------



## tarponhead (Jul 13, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> I still have plenty of T-shirts & stickers for sale! www.savemagicvermont.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very cool. Hope this works out for everyone concerned.

Did notice all those sweet things did have a ring on their fingers.......;-)


----------



## trtaylor (Jul 14, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Did notice all those sweet things did have a ring on their fingers.......;-)


 I was wondering when someone was going to say something.


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jul 14, 2009)

tarponhead said:


> Did notice all those sweet things did have a ring on their fingers.......;-)



First & last lines of this old ad explains everything. :wink:


----------



## 2knees (Jul 21, 2009)

:lol:

and maybe the really fine skiing.......


----------



## RustyGroomer (Jul 23, 2009)

2knees said:


> :lol:
> 
> and maybe the really fine skiing.......



& hot tubbing......






TD jumps in.






Poof!!!


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> & hot tubbing......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## 2knees (Aug 7, 2009)

thread needs a bump.

Rusty Groomer, whats your take on the outlook for this coming season?


----------



## Beetlenut (Aug 7, 2009)

2knees said:


> thread needs a bump.
> 
> Rusty Groomer, whats your take on the outlook for this coming season?


 
And what does it say that ski clubs are selling ticket vouchers to Magic for the coming season? Does that make a 09-10 Magic ski season imminent?


----------



## billski (Aug 7, 2009)

Beetlenut said:


> And what does it say that ski clubs are selling ticket vouchers to Magic for the coming season? Does that make a 09-10 Magic ski season imminent?


I would think yes. Our club's bulk sales included Magic this year. In the case of Tenny, when it was still uncertain (not announced publically) if they were going to operate or not, the Tenny tickets were not included in the bulk sale. It would be business suicide to offer something you can't deliver on, perhaps even courting a lawsuit.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2009)

FWIW there was an article in the Rutland Herald stating that Magic owed $103k on property taxes and had to pay up by the end of the month.  

Regrettably Whaleback was in the same boat.


----------



## roark (Aug 7, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW there was an article in the Rutland Herald stating that Magic owed $103k on property taxes and had to pay up by the end of the month.
> 
> Regrettably Whaleback was in the same boat.


 
Some taxes are still overdue, but the immediate portion has been paid.

http://www.manchesterjournal.com/ci_13011734


----------



## Masskier (Aug 13, 2009)

Any update on how Magic is doing with their Co-op plan?


----------



## St. Bear (Aug 13, 2009)

Beetlenut said:


> And what does it say that ski clubs are selling ticket vouchers to Magic for the coming season? Does that make a 09-10 Magic ski season imminent?



I joined The Goodmen Ski Club, and they seem to do a lot of business with Magic (at least they did last year), so I'm looking forward to skiing there next year.

I was poking around their website, and I was surprised at the size of the mountain.  I always assumed it was like Black Mountain or Cranmore with just over 1,000' in vertical.  At 1,700', it's bigger than Sunapee.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2009)

roark said:


> Some taxes are still overdue, but the immediate portion has been paid.
> 
> http://www.manchesterjournal.com/ci_13011734



Last I saw, they paid it all off.


----------



## riverc0il (Aug 13, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> I joined The Goodmen Ski Club, and they seem to do a lot of business with Magic (at least they did last year), so I'm looking forward to skiing there next year.
> 
> I was poking around their website, and I was surprised at the size of the mountain.  I always assumed it was like Black Mountain or Cranmore with just over 1,000' in vertical.  At 1,700', it's bigger than Sunapee.


Just out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that Magic has so little vertical? I only ask because Magic seems to suffer from misconceptions so I thought it might be interesting to hear about what is causing those misconceptions. Not only does Magic have a lot of vertical, but it makes better use of that vertical than any other mountain under 2k in New England.


----------



## billski (Aug 13, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Just out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that Magic has so little vertical? I only ask because Magic seems to suffer from misconceptions so I thought it might be interesting to hear about what is causing those misconceptions. Not only does Magic have a lot of vertical, but it makes better use of that vertical than any other mountain under 2k in New England.



Magic doesn't do as much in-your-face PR as Sunapee and the Ski93 crowd,and the other So. Vt'ers do.  I suspect that perception is that if an area is not in your face all the time, it must be small.  I know that every time I speak with most people around here about Magic, I even have to describe what state it's in!   I think Burke and Saddleback have also suffered from a similar misconception.


----------



## riverc0il (Aug 13, 2009)

billski said:


> Magic doesn't do as much in-your-face PR as Sunapee and the Ski93 crowd,and the other So. Vt'ers do.  I suspect that perception is that if an area is not in your face all the time, it must be small.  I know that every time I speak with most people around here about Magic, I even have to describe what state it's in!   I think Burke and Saddleback have also suffered from a similar misconception.


Burke and Saddleback both have statistics showing 2k vert. I think the 2k vert stat is a perception barrier which is why many resorts stretch the truth a bit.... such as Burke even at just 2000' even but you'd have to ski from the summit down to the lower lodge to get all of it. Another funny example is Jay calling their Summit Haus elevation 4000' when it isn't even close :lol: The 2k vert and 4k elevation stats I think have perceptive value. Though that is my hypothesis and I would be interested in hearing confirmation if I am right on that issue.


----------



## 4aprice (Aug 13, 2009)

I think a lot of peoples perspective is that Magic is run down.  Many people enjoy that and hope it stays that way, (I put a place like Plattekill in the same category) but from a resort standpoint it's way behind its neighbors.  When I was growing up that area was known as the Golden Triangle and Magic was a key player.  It just never seemed to keep up with Stratton and Bromley.  It seems like it should have because I stayed at one of the Inns on the access road back in the late 70's and that was pretty nice layout for a resort.  Problem is it never exited the 70's.

From the skiing prespective its a great mountain. Nice drops and glades all over the place. Great if the snow is great.  It is lower in elevation then the other two and that has probably taken a toll on the ski area in some of the leaner snow years

Also I admit that I haven't been there in years but I believe they have taken away some lifts (including possibly the beginner chair) and that can't help with attendance.  It's hard to survive on just the hard core skier/rider cause there's just not enough of them.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## MommaBear (Aug 13, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Just out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that Magic has so little vertical? I only ask because Magic seems to suffer from misconceptions so I thought it might be interesting to hear about what is causing those misconceptions. Not only does Magic have a lot of vertical, but it makes better use of that vertical than any other mountain under 2k in New England.



My perception was that it would be a "small" mountain.  It cost less and didn't get the talk the "larger" mountains did.  I had only been there once before this season and long ago and only remember being terrified as I followed my expert skiing husband down the trails.  All these years I attributed that to being newly back into skiing.  This year when we pulled into the parking lot I was immediately in awe of the "little" mountain.  So I think its the talk of it being "little" that gives the perception it will not be steep.

Oh, and this year I kept right up with my husband.  At least until I clipped a tree and broke my finger.  : )   We bought tickets in the ski club sale and are looking forward to skiing it again this season.


----------



## riverc0il (Aug 13, 2009)

MommaBear said:


> My perception was that it would be a "small" mountain.  It cost less and didn't get the talk the "larger" mountains did.  I had only been there once before this season and long ago and only remember being terrified as I followed my expert skiing husband down the trails.  All these years I attributed that to being newly back into skiing.  This year when we pulled into the parking lot I was immediately in awe of the "little" mountain.  So I think its the talk of it being "little" that gives the perception it will not be steep.
> 
> Oh, and this year I kept right up with my husband.  At least until I clipped a tree and broke my finger.  : )   We bought tickets in the ski club sale and are looking forward to skiing it again this season.


The great thing about Magic is you don't need to keep up with expect skiers to ski there! It has some of the best cruising around. Trails with some character, twists & turns, empty slopes, and good conditions all day. You can find fresh untouched corduroy on groomed slopes well after noon time during the week.

4aprice ticks off the usual hits and lack of beginner lift and snow making are of course the biggest offenses. But that isn't what I was going for by asking my question. Those are hard facts that justify keep certain people away. I was more wondering about misconceptions... such as the size issue.


----------



## bvibert (Aug 13, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> TYou can find fresh untouched corduroy on groomed slopes well after noon time during the week.



This was especially true the last two times I skied there.  They were running laps around the mountain with the groomer pretty much all day.  It wasn't hard to find fresh cord, even if you weren't looking for it!


----------



## St. Bear (Aug 13, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Just out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that Magic has so little vertical? I only ask because Magic seems to suffer from misconceptions so I thought it might be interesting to hear about what is causing those misconceptions. Not only does Magic have a lot of vertical, but it makes better use of that vertical than any other mountain under 2k in New England.



I'm not sure what put that impression in my head.  Maybe it's a marketing thing, but as mentioned earlier, Burke does little to no marketing as well, and I don't have the same "small" misconception.  Maybe it's the troubles it's having, so I automatically assume it's a smaller hill.

It's probably because it's smaller in total size than the nearby resorts of Stratton and Mt. Snow, so it's commonly referred to in a diminutive manner and I assume it has a smaller vertical.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Burke and Saddleback both have statistics showing 2k vert. I think the 2k vert stat is a perception barrier which is why many resorts stretch the truth a bit.... such as Burke even at just 2000' even but you'd have to ski from the summit down to the lower lodge to get all of it. Another funny example is Jay calling their Summit Haus elevation 4000' when it isn't even close :lol: The 2k vert and 4k elevation stats I think have perceptive value. Though that is my hypothesis and I would be interested in hearing confirmation if I am right on that issue.



Burke anticipated Riv's comments, and a couple years ago "found" 11 more vertical feet.  Not sure where it was hiding... :wink:  Now it is 2,011 vert.  But you're right...the only time you could ski the entire vert was to ski top to bottom, which isn't really practical.  The 1,600 or so off the summit is fine...in fact even though most areas can have more than 2,000 vert, I've noticed that the vert for most "single lift/trail pods" seems to be the 1,500-1,600 vert range.  

As for Jay, you're right.  The summit, IIRC, is 3850 or something like that...so I don't know where the other 150 feet came from :lol:


----------



## riverc0il (Aug 14, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> I'm not sure what put that impression in my head.  Maybe it's a marketing thing, but as mentioned earlier, Burke does little to no marketing as well, and I don't have the same "small" misconception.  Maybe it's the troubles it's having, so I automatically assume it's a smaller hill.
> 
> It's probably because it's smaller in total size than the nearby resorts of Stratton and Mt. Snow, so it's commonly referred to in a diminutive manner and I assume it has a smaller vertical.


These are good points. While the bigger resorts have corporations that go bankrupt or buy and sell each other's mountains, I don't think any mountain over 2k vertical has ever been as much on the fence as Magic (well, Burke did have a significant amount of different owners compared to most other areas).


----------



## 4aprice (Aug 14, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> I'm not sure what put that impression in my head.  Maybe it's a marketing thing, but as mentioned earlier, Burke does little to no marketing as well, and I don't have the same "small" misconception.  Maybe it's the troubles it's having, so I automatically assume it's a smaller hill.
> 
> It's probably because it's smaller in total size than the nearby resorts of Stratton and Mt. Snow, so it's commonly referred to in a diminutive manner and I assume it has a smaller vertical.



I think the lower summit elevation makes it seem smaller.  I thinks stats put it at about 2700 ft.  Stratton, Bromley and Mt Snow all have summits over 3000 ft.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## tipsdown (Aug 14, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke anticipated Riv's comments, and a couple years ago "found" 11 more vertical feet.  Not sure where it was hiding... :wink:  Now it is 2,011 vert.  But you're right...the only time you could ski the entire vert was to ski top to bottom, which isn't really practical.  The 1,600 or so off the summit is fine...in fact even though most areas can have more than 2,000 vert, I've noticed that the vert for most "single lift/trail pods" seems to be the 1,500-1,600 vert range.
> 
> As for Jay, you're right.  The summit, IIRC, is 3850 or something like that...so I don't know where the other 150 feet came from :lol:



That's exactly why I don't like that statistic.  It can be very mis-leading.  A lot of times you have to ski it to know because there's certainly instances where hills with "smaller" vertical ski bigger than those with "larger" vertical.  Sunday River comes to mind…It claims 2300 ft. of vert but doesn't ski anywhere close to that... I would agree that most all mountains (in the East)  that are 2k or greater in vertical have single lifts/trails in the 1500-1600 vert range.  The only exception I can think of is the Sugarloaf Superquad which is about 1800ft of real vertical.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2009)

tipsdown said:


> That's exactly why I don't like that statistic.  It can be very mis-leading.  A lot of times you have to ski it to know because there's certainly instances where hills with "smaller" vertical ski bigger than those with "larger" vertical.  Sunday River comes to mind…It claims 2300 ft. of vert but doesn't ski anywhere close to that... I would agree that most all mountains (in the East)  that are 2k or greater in vertical have single lifts/trails in the 1500-1600 vert range.  The only exception I can think of is the Sugarloaf Superquad which is about 1800ft of real vertical.



Yes, Sugarloaf is legit--SuperQuad serves up 1,800 vert.  Other single lift huge verts that come to mind include:

-Trams at Cannon and Jay
-Gondis at Stratton and Stowe
-Forerunner at Stowe (assuming it isn't broken down :roll: )
-GMX @ SB
-MRG's single chair

I'm not counting Killington's Skyeship because it is so fllllllllaaaaaattttt to get down to Route 4.


----------



## St. Bear (Aug 14, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, Sugarloaf is legit--SuperQuad serves up 1,800 vert.  Other single lift huge verts that come to mind include:
> 
> -Trams at Cannon and Jay
> -Gondis at Stratton and Stowe
> ...



Wildcat's summit quad services the mountain's entire 2,000 ft vert.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> Wildcat's summit quad services the mountain's entire 2,000 ft vert.



Yessir, that is another one!


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 14, 2009)

Wildcat Quad

and though I have not skied there, Gondola at Whiteface.


----------



## bobbutts (Aug 14, 2009)

Lifts in NH by vertical drop.  (may be incomplete or slightly inaccurate)

Wildcat Express - 2062'
Cannon Aerial Tram - 2,022'
Waterville Valley White Peak chair- 1912'
Attitash Summit Triple - 1750'
Loon Gondola - 1700'


----------



## tipsdown (Aug 14, 2009)

bobbutts said:


> Lifts in NH by vertical drop.  (may be incomplete or slightly inaccurate)
> 
> Wildcat Express - 2062'
> Cannon Aerial Tram - 2,022'
> ...



That's right...I forgot about Wildcat.  That does ski big.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Aug 14, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, Sugarloaf is legit--SuperQuad serves up 1,800 vert.  Other single lift huge verts that come to mind include:
> 
> -Trams at Cannon and Jay
> -Gondis at Stratton and Stowe
> ...



Though I'm a SB homer, I'd say that Stowe takes the cake in all of the Northeast for that.  The quad and ganjala both offer up a legit 2000' vert with the double not too far behind at 1700'.  I'm not sure any other mountain can match that, though perhaps WF comes close with the gondi, Face Lift, and Summit or Lookout.  SB isn't too shabby with GMX, NRX, and C-Rock checking in at 1800', 1500' and 1700' respectively, but Stowe is in a different league.


----------



## mlctvt (Aug 14, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Just out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that Magic has so little vertical? I only ask because Magic seems to suffer from misconceptions so I thought it might be interesting to hear about what is causing those misconceptions. Not only does Magic have a lot of vertical, but it makes better use of that vertical than any other mountain under 2k in New England.




I think a lot of people just have no idea that the mountain is there, and those that do know about it think it's a small hill or just not modern enough to consider skiing there. 

I have a condo at Mount Snow so I ski there almost every weekend. I buy the blackout pass and I ski other areas during the holiday blackouts. 
Last year I was skiing with a bunch of other second homeowners at Mount Snow and I was talking up Magic. Most of them couldn’t understand why I wanted to ski Magic. I talked about the awesome terrain, and how I liked it better than Mt Snow. The trail layouts being “like it used to be” narrow trails more naturally cut,  not large wide boulevards like some of the trails at Mount Snow. I guess several of them got sick of me talking up Magic. One guy, who’s a great skier by the way, says “I don’t understand you liking an old school mountain like Magic, today’s skis and skiing style doesn’t fit in with a mountain like Magic.” When I said “you know like the last run we took down Uncles, it’s just more challenging and fun”. Uncles by the way is one of the few narrow “old school” trails left at Mount Snow.
I couldn’t understand that a really great skier wouldn’t consider Magic, I just don’t get it but maybe there are many others that feel this way?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 15, 2009)

Send Magic your money


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## bvibert (Aug 16, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> I couldn’t understand that a really great skier wouldn’t consider Magic, I just don’t get it but maybe there are many others that feel this way?



It's baffling, if they ever tried skiing there I can't imagine they'd have the same opinion, and if they did then I really don't get it.  Oh well, their loss.


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## riverc0il (Aug 17, 2009)

bvibert said:


> It's baffling, if they ever tried skiing there I can't imagine they'd have the same opinion, and if they did then I really don't get it.  Oh well, their loss.


Unfortunately, if that coop thing does not come together, it might be everyone's loss that not enough people got there these past few years.


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## Ski Diva (Aug 18, 2009)

Just read in the Rutland Herald that Magic has paid its overdue back taxes, giving it more time to sell enough shares to recapitalize the mountain and stay in business:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20090818/NEWS02/908180373/1003/NEWS02


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## bvibert (Aug 18, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Unfortunately, if that coop thing does not come together, it might be everyone's loss that not enough people got there these past few years.



Very true, unfortunately.  I really hope that they can stay in operation...


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## mlctvt (Aug 18, 2009)

Ski Diva said:


> Just read in the Rutland Herald that Magic has paid its overdue back taxes, giving it more time to sell enough shares to recapitalize the mountain and stay in business:
> 
> http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20090818/NEWS02/908180373/1003/NEWS02



from the article it looks like they've only sold about 66 shares so far. They are hoping to sell 200 shares before 9/1, but that's only two weeks from now.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> from the article it looks like they've only sold about 66 shares so far. They are hoping to sell 200 shares before 9/1, but that's only two weeks from now.



Looks like they are close....



> He said 175 people have committed but not yet given him the funds.


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## Greg (Aug 28, 2009)

It's my understanding that opening this season is still up in the air. Hopefully, they can pull it off.


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## St. Bear (Aug 28, 2009)

I hope they can, because I definitely was going to make it up there with the Connecticut Ski Club discount.


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## faceplant (Aug 29, 2009)

Magic email from a few days back

'August 24, 2009



Dear Friends of Magic:



I am writing to provide an update on share sales and the upcoming season.  First and foremost I want to extend my thanks to those of you who have purchased shares thus far.  I am greatly appreciative of your support for the mountain.  In terms of share sales, we are creeping up on 100 which is obviously far from the threshold goal of 300.  There are still many people who have expressed an intent to purchase shares who have not done so yet.  We cannot move forward with the current level of sales.  There is the possibility that we could move forward with less than 300 shares are sold if it appears that the goal of 300 is attainable over the next few months.  That scenario would require the assent of all of those who purchase shares to the reduction of the threshold, and it would require revising the budget to accommodate the reduced share sales. 



Undoubtedly all of those who are reading this letter are surmising that the continued operation of the mountain for the 2009-10 season is in jeopardy.  That is a possible outcome, but it is too early to reach that conclusion because there are many people out there who will participate who simply have not yet taken action.  However, we do have considerable work to do in terms of raising capital.  I fully appreciate the economic strain which many are experiencing, and like many families, Magic may need to modify its plans until the economy improves.  My goal at this juncture is to keep Magic open and moving forward, and I am prepared to revise the plan and budget according to the level of support we receive provided that we reach a point where adequate funding exists to enable the mountain to remain operational for several years.  It is still relatively early in the share sale process, and based upon the responses to the offering I have received, I believe that the desire and ability to support this cause exists.  As such, I am hopeful that there are many more people who will participate, as we need to substantially increase share sales before we can even consider moving forward.    



The time for action is now, as time is of the essence in order to properly prepare the mountain.  Therefore, if you have the financial wherewithal, and if you desire the mountain to remain operational, please send in your Subscription Agreement today.  Each share sold makes a difference, so this is not a time to stand on the sidelines.  We need to double our subscriptions by September 4th.  All of the documents, including the Subscription Agreement, can be found on www.magicmtn.com.



Thank you all for your attention to this correspondence. Together we can make this plan work, but it requires immediate action on the part of the Magic enthusiasts.    Please feel free to contact me with any questions.



Sincerely,



Jim Sullivan

President'


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 29, 2009)

wow..so 200 more shares needed..yikes


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## thetrailboss (Aug 30, 2009)

Not good news.  Looks like we have a lot of people on the fence...or a lot of people blowing smoke.  IIRC the share price was $3,000 or so, yes?  I imagine that many folks are waiting for others to pony up before risking...err....investing their money on an operation that might not fly.  

A few weeks ago I thought that they had 175 sold.  With their deadline a few days away, and only 100 of the 300 sold, this is not good sad to say.  This is not a surprise given that they only had 16,000 skier days last season  I really wish them the best...unfortunately this economy and the fact that they are a weather dependent business really hurts.


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## MommaBear (Aug 30, 2009)

Its just bad timing for us - we would have bought a share but the extra money just isn't there right now.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

MommaBear said:


> Its just bad timing for us - we would have bought a share but the extra money just isn't there right now.



I think that a lot of people are saying the same thing.  It is too bad, but it sounds like the owner/President is going to find some way for them to open.


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## St. Bear (Aug 31, 2009)

There must be other alternatives that they're considering.  The easiest would be to model Plattekill and only open for weekends and holidays.  That way they save on the biggest financial burden (wages), and whatever snow they do get will last longer, helping out with the snowmaking dilemma.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 31, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> There must be other alternatives that they're considering.  The easiest would be to model Plattekill and only open for weekends and holidays.  That way they save on the biggest financial burden (wages), and whatever snow they do get will last longer, helping out with the snowmaking dilemma.



It seems like it would be tough to staff the place for only weekends and holidays..I would figure the Magic employees would find employment elsewhere..the best Magic can hope for is if they are bought out by another ski resort..then they will get the necassary improvements to be able to have a chance at being profitable..


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## Mapnut (Aug 31, 2009)

A very hypothetical question:  if you had a few million dollars (not unlimited funds) and you wanted to save Magic, would you just buy the 200 shares they need to sell to keep going - and continue buying more so you own the majority - or just buy the place outright so you have full control?


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## St. Bear (Aug 31, 2009)

Mapnut said:


> A very hypothetical question:  if you had a few million dollars (not unlimited funds) and you wanted to save Magic, would you just buy the 200 shares they need to sell to keep going - and continue buying more so you own the majority - or just buy the place outright so you have full control?



Probably depends on if you want to run the place (buying it outright), or just keep it open (buying the rest of the shares).


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## roark (Aug 31, 2009)

It's been awhile since I looked at the documents but I recall something about the existing owners retaining a majority % of the total shares... I could be totally wrong and I'm too lazy to look it up...


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> It seems like it would be tough to staff the place for only weekends and holidays..I would figure the Magic employees would find employment elsewhere..the best Magic can hope for is if they are bought out by another ski resort..then they will get the necassary improvements to be able to have a chance at being profitable..



Probably unlikely.  They have A LOT of infrastructure needs.  Specifically, replacing multiple lifts, snowmaking, and a new lodge.  It could be doable if, say, they only needed one thing (a new lift and/or a new lodge).  They also don't have any condos or bona fide real estate, IIRC, so the income side is limited to the ski area operations.  It is really sad.....


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## Greg (Aug 31, 2009)

Mapnut said:


> A very hypothetical question:  if you had a few million dollars (not unlimited funds) and you wanted to save Magic, would you just buy the 200 shares they need to sell to keep going - and continue buying more so you own the majority - or just buy the place outright so you have full control?



Maybe Bob Switzgable (Owner of Ski Sundown) will get out his checkbook. Chris Sullivan would whip that place into shape in no time. :razz:


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## Talisman (Aug 31, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> It could be doable if, say, they only needed one thing (a new lift and/or a new lodge).  ....



I agree that Magic has huge infrastructure issues, but a new lodge?  The lack of snow making is biggest issue followed by lifts.  Maybe I think this because I don't hang in the lodge enough, but it isn't terrible now there is a bar.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

Talisman said:


> I agree that Magic has huge infrastructure issues, but a new lodge?  The lack of snow making is biggest issue followed by lifts.  Maybe I think this because I don't hang in the lodge enough, but it isn't terrible now there is a bar.



Full disclosure:  I have not been, but from the pictures I have seen it is rustic.


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## snowmonster (Aug 31, 2009)

Lodge is fine as it is, I think. It isn't too shabby. As I see it, snowmaking and lift repairs will be key. I'd hate for this place to get NELSAP-ed.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

Just looked at some pics and the Lodge does look OK.  I think that if you want to bring in customers though you would need to upgrade it since the neighboring resorts have pretty nice base areas.  Probably not high on the list.


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## St. Bear (Aug 31, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Full disclosure:  I have not been, but from the pictures I have seen it is rustic.



If there is heat and electricity, and they sell food and drink, isn't that enough for the demographic they're going for?

I have not been to Magic yet (I'm making a big effort this year), and I know nothing about snowmaking systems, but how can a place like Black Mountain (NH) succeed with ~120 inches/year and Magic struggle with ~180?  I went to Black twice last year, and they weren't exactly blowing the crap out of the trails.  I know for a fact that after a long snowless streak last year most trails were showing dirt, yet it skied fine after the next big snowfall.


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## RustyGroomer (Aug 31, 2009)

roark said:


> It's been awhile since I looked at the documents but I recall something about the existing owners retaining a majority % of the total shares... I could be totally wrong and I'm too lazy to look it up...



60% goes to shareholders, 20% to current owner, 20% to JLS LLC, Jim Sullivan.

I'm trying to stay positive but am a bit concerned.  Hard for me to understand why so many people verbally committed & are now taking their time writing checks.

The time is now.  Please contribute in any way you can.  I want many more of these....







& days like this.






Edit to add it does not need a new lodge, the current one is actually pretty nice.  The bar (Goniff's Den) is a great place for apres ski beers.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> If there is heat and electricity, and they sell food and drink, isn't that enough for the demographic they're going for?



Yes, but at 16,000 skier days, that demographic apparently is not big enough.



> I have not been to Magic yet (I'm making a big effort this year), and I know nothing about snowmaking systems, but how can a place like Black Mountain (NH) succeed with ~120 inches/year and Magic struggle with ~180?  I went to Black twice last year, and they weren't exactly blowing the crap out of the trails.  I know for a fact that after a long snowless streak last year most trails were showing dirt, yet it skied fine after the next big snowfall.



Black Mountain is probably the best comparison when I think about it.  They are similar size, similar niche, both are no-frills, have no real summer operation, and have very old infrastructure.  Probably the biggest distinction I see is that Black has never gone bankrupt or closed for a season or two as Magic did.  Once a ski area closes, it is very, very tough to reopen it because the infrastructure can rot/disintegrate quickly without maintenance.  

I think it comes back to the fact that Magic does not have consistent snow as Black does. Black is further north.


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## 2knees (Aug 31, 2009)

offering opinions of the lodge without ever having seen it is rather strange, if you ask me.

the lodge has been renovated since they re-opened and is probably their most updated piece of infastructure.  It has a bar, nice restrooms, plenty of seating for the Magic crowds, a nice deck with a full view of lucifer, or black magic, whichever its called now.  The food is fine by ski area standards.  and the staff is exceedingly friendly.

they need updated snowmaking, more water, and a reliable lift.


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## roark (Aug 31, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification on the ownership % G.

Totally agree with most of the prior opinions - the lodge is fine. Goniffs is my favorite ski area bar I've been to in New England. The cafeteria food is far above average - often prepared to order and reasonably priced.

The only thing they truly need is the most expensive part - snowmaking. I couldn't care less about faster chairs - I'd rather have one that runs when it's windy.

Just wish I could swing a share - or a dozen...


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## RustyGroomer (Aug 31, 2009)

whoops added the wrong pic, so here's a couple more.  I think I posted that one earlier.











2Knees has got it right.  Reliable snow, reliable lift, & i'll add a much better, dedicated learning area & the mountain is good to go.


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## MR. evil (Aug 31, 2009)

2knees said:


> and a reliable lift.




You got stuck on the lift


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

I wonder if Peak Resorts considered buying Magic when they were looking at New England instead of Crotched?  They bought Crotched in 2002 and spent a year rebuilding the entire place...from the bottom up.  New lodge, new snowmaking, new (used) lifts, everything.  You'd be looking at a similar thing here:  snowmaking, lifts, and other infrastructure.


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## 2knees (Aug 31, 2009)

MR. evil said:


> You got stuck on the lift



cant see flickr at work but man was that freaky.

still had a nice day at bromley but i was sooooo looking forward to skiing magic that day.


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## MR. evil (Aug 31, 2009)

2knees said:


> cant see flickr at work but man was that freaky.
> 
> still had a nice day at bromley but i was sooooo looking forward to skiing magic that day.



Its a picture of Nelson Muntz saying "HA HA"


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## bvibert (Aug 31, 2009)

2knees said:


> offering opinions of the lodge without ever having seen it is rather strange, if you ask me.
> 
> the lodge has been renovated since they re-opened and is probably their most updated piece of infastructure.  It has a bar, nice restrooms, plenty of seating for the Magic crowds, a nice deck with a full view of lucifer, or black magic, whichever its called now.  The food is fine by ski area standards.  and the staff is exceedingly friendly.
> 
> they need updated snowmaking, more water, and a reliable lift.





roark said:


> Thanks for the clarification on the ownership % G.
> 
> Totally agree with most of the prior opinions - the lodge is fine. Goniffs is my favorite ski area bar I've been to in New England. The cafeteria food is far above average - often prepared to order and reasonably priced.
> 
> ...



Agreed, the lodge is in fine shape.  It does seem a bit odd to be criticizing a place that you've never been TB.  If more people just checked the place out instead of thinking they knew what it was like then Magic may not be in the position that they're in.  As mentioned I find the lodge food above average, especially considering that it's in the lodge of a smallish ski area.  

Improved snowmaking and a more reliable chair, whether that's fixing up the red chair, or installing a newer chair (hopefully of the same configuration and capacity), are the two big things that are needed.  After that's taken care of then I'd move onto improving the experience for beginners and intermediates.

If I had the money I'd be in for several shares, but I'm broke, no possible way for me to swing even one share.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

bvibert said:


> Agreed, the lodge is in fine shape.  It does seem a bit odd to be criticizing a place that you've never been TB.



Not sure how commenting about the area turned into criticism :-?  

I have been by Magic many times, not skied there and I am familiar with the area and its history/issues and have followed it with interest.

I am comparing its infrastructure to that of its neighbors--Okemo, Snow, Stratton.  Tough neighbors to have.



> If more people just checked the place out instead of thinking they knew what it was like then Magic may not be in the position that they're in.



And that's the whole point.  Folks don't visit because it is thought to have unreliable snow conditions, lifts, etc.


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## RustyGroomer (Aug 31, 2009)

Lodge in question. ;-)






I know that my friends & family with kids love it.  Great family atmosphere & just about impossible for the little ones to get lost.  You can watch them tube in the park while sipping beers @ the bar.


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## Greg (Aug 31, 2009)

roark said:


> Thanks for the clarification on the ownership % G.
> 
> Totally agree with most of the prior opinions - the lodge is fine. Goniffs is my favorite ski area bar I've been to in New England. The cafeteria food is far above average - often prepared to order and reasonably priced.
> 
> ...



I agree with just about everything you said. Hoping to be able to ski Magic this year.


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## MommaBear (Aug 31, 2009)

I don't think we need another Stratton, Okemo or Mount Snow type place.  I, personally, enjoyed Magic this year because it WASN'T like those mountains.  Why is it so bad to be different from the rest?  Why does everything have to be posh and polished to appeal to the masses?  I understand you need more skier visits to bring in the funds, but some of us out here aren't impressed with the things that are supposed to appeal to the masses.  So of us even find some of it totally annoying - like conveyor belts to bring you to the chair.  I'd much rather have the guy at Magic with his corny jokes.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Beetlenut (Aug 31, 2009)

Most people that go to magic, go there for one thing, the terrain. Most of those people think the lodge is fine, me included, and the bar is great after skiing. If they needed to do one thing now, IMO it would be finish the snowmaking tie-in to the ponds they were building. A good coating of early season base would do Magic wonders to get the season going. I don't even mind the slow lift, as long as it goes to the top without breaking down! I've already purchased tickets for this coming season, so I hope they open. If not, then I just made a donation to them. It's old school, that's it's appeal.


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## bvibert (Aug 31, 2009)

MommaBear said:


> I don't think we need another Stratton, Okemo or Mount Snow type place.  I, personally, enjoyed Magic this year because it WASN'T like those mountains.  Why is it so bad to be different from the rest?  Why does everything have to be posh and polished to appeal to the masses?  I understand you need more skier visits to bring in the funds, but some of us out here aren't impressed with the things that are supposed to appeal to the masses.  So of us even find some of it totally annoying - like conveyor belts to bring you to the chair.  I'd much rather have the guy at Magic with his corny jokes.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



Exactly!  Add my 2 cents to that sentiment.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 31, 2009)

MommaBear said:


> I don't think we need another Stratton, Okemo or Mount Snow type place.  I, personally, enjoyed Magic this year because it WASN'T like those mountains.  Why is it so bad to be different from the rest?  Why does everything have to be posh and polished to appeal to the masses?  I understand you need more skier visits to bring in the funds, but some of us out here aren't impressed with the things that are supposed to appeal to the masses.  So of us even find some of it totally annoying - like conveyor belts to bring you to the chair.  I'd much rather have the guy at Magic with his corny jokes.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



That's not what I'm saying.  

It is a balance though.  Magic, with 16,000 skier visits, can't survive and I think they know that.  Hell,. the Middlebury College Snowbowl has 50-60,000 visits a year.  

What they need to focus on is having reliable operations and a consistent product.  There have been many times where they just weren't open (lift problems, conditions, etc)>  

And as to niche, it is cool but it just seems that if people want that kind of terrain they go to MRG where the snow is more reliable.  

But then again, a few years back folks thought that Saddleback was done and the new owners have really made that place into something!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2009)

Saddleback should be the model, not Mad River Glen.  Appeal to the expert, but also the family looking for something laid back, yet quality and affordable.   I see no reason why Magic can't do 100K visits a year and be sustainable. 

Honestly, I think their BIGGEST problem is marketing.  Yes the mountain has it's issues, but how many people even know about the place anymore?  Outside of basic maintenance to keep the place going, spend HUGE on marketing.  Hell, offer and market the hell out of a free ski day each month for a different state; Mass, NH, VT, CT, NY, especially on a Friday if there are five friday's that month.  You get lucky and a few thousand people show up for a powder day who have never been there before, Saturday will crank at full price provided it's reasonable.

If possible, I would defer any major capital expenditures for marketing investment for at least a couple of years.  Get yourself back on the radar, then invest in a few improvements.  With the natural terrain it has in such close proximity to Boston and Albany, there's no reason it can't do 100K visits.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2009)

I would also do whatever I could to get the Maple Valley skiers back....the locals.  DIRT cheap high school passes.  It was 15 years ago, but Okemo was only $200 a year for me in HS.


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## riverc0il (Aug 31, 2009)

The lodge has been substantially improved in recent years. I actually rate it very highly for a usable lodge. It has everything a lodge needs to have. With the bar, new benches, improved bath rooms, and all the other improvements, I would rate it higher than Burke's Mid-Burke and Black NH, to compare with other mid-sized lesser known areas. It has one of the best ski area facing decks around for chilling out with an after ski beverage. Rough around the edges and not built for the all services in one family crowd but great for all but the full service needing skier or rider family.



RustyGroomer said:


> I'm trying to stay positive but am a bit concerned.  Hard for me to understand why so many people verbally committed & are now taking their time writing checks.


I hate to be the nay sayer here, I LOVE Magic and want to see it open. But people verbally committed because they have heart. They are taking their time writing checks because they have an objective look at the situation. It is a extremely risky proposition to invest in Magic right now, especially at the price of $3000 per share. The ski area is unstable and lacks the needed capital to make critical long term investments. That whole 60/20/20 split on ownership would be tough to swallow as well, even with shareholders having a majority stake. Going coop should not be a decision of last resort but a decision in spirit of the mountain and its long term needs. This is too desperate to appear a wise financial investment. I suspect the folks who put their money with their mouth is on this deal are doing so with a lot of heart for the mountain, which I deeply respect as the mountain has long since captured my heart. But I don't think heart alone will save any mountain that close to ruin from financial failure... sucks as it may, Magic needs a corporate buyer, IMO, and this is a tough time to find one. Especially given how similar purchases have gone lately (e.g. Burke).


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## bvibert (Aug 31, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> If possible, I would defer any major capital expenditures for marketing investment for at least a couple of years.  Get yourself back on the radar, then invest in a few improvements.  With the natural terrain it has in such close proximity to Boston and Albany, there's no reason it can't do 100K visits.



I don't agree with that.  The natural terrain is great, but they're too far south to rely on it.  IMHO they need snowmaking upgrades to attract people to the groomers when the natural snow is lean.  The do have some pretty nice cruiser trails and a groomer that can't be more than a couple years old, they just need better snowmaking to better utilize it.

That may not attract their core customers, but it should get more people to the mountain.  I agree with making the place attractive to locals!

Marketing is definitely needed, but I don't think it should be put ahead of snowmaking improvements and making sure they have a reliable chair lift.


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## riverc0il (Aug 31, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it comes back to the fact that Magic does not have consistent snow as Black does. Black is further north.


Magic has significantly more consistent snow than Black, IMO. Comparisons between the two mountains do not add up, IMO. Very different mountains, very different operations, very different target markets, significantly different vertical and pitch and terrain offerings and especially acreage. If Magic had good snow making and a beginner area, Magic would be superior in every way except for the Bromley like sunny exposure of Black but the trade off is worse snow preservation which enhances Magic's consistency. Though Black makes more snow. They have to. But they have half as much terrain to cover.


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## riverc0il (Aug 31, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I don't agree with that.  The natural terrain is great, but they're too far south to rely on it.  IMHO they need snowmaking upgrades to attract people to the groomers when the natural snow is lean.  The do have some pretty nice cruiser trails and a groomer that can't be more than a couple years old, they just need better snowmaking to better utilize it.
> 
> That may not attract their core customers, but it should get more people to the mountain.  I agree with making the place attractive to locals!


Snow making would actually attract MORE core customers, not just visitors. How many times have we seen Magic struggling to barely get one or two runs open for the Christmas holiday or even open at all prior to the New Year? To hell with folks that want to take a ski weekend, that is not even going to attract people that like and enjoy Magic. At least if the major routes were covered the die hards might show up for a few groomer runs. They might sell more season passes too if people knew they would get four months or more from their pass instead of barely three. Snow making in today's market is an absolute must for all areas except MRG (bunny and the base area with one gun doesn't count).


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## bvibert (Aug 31, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Snow making would actually attract MORE core customers, not just visitors. How many times have we seen Magic struggling to barely get one or two runs open for the Christmas holiday or even open at all prior to the New Year? To hell with folks that want to take a ski weekend, that is not even going to attract people that like and enjoy Magic. At least if the major routes were covered the die hards might show up for a few groomer runs. They might sell more season passes too if people knew they would get four months or more from their pass instead of barely three. Snow making in today's market is an absolute must for all areas except MRG (bunny and the base area with one gun doesn't count).



I guess that depends on how you define the core customer that they've been attracting.  Having more snow making isn't likely to get me there more often, but then again I'm probably not their target.  It will definitely help with season pass sales, which I'd imagine would be a huge boost.  

Either way I think we both agree that better snow making capability is needed, regardless of the name you put on the people it'll attract, it'll get people there.


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## riverc0il (Aug 31, 2009)

I should have been more clear. One too many beers tonight. It will attract far more non-core customers than core customers. But I think that the core customer can not be over looked in terms of putting in more days. Also, a natural snow trail with a foot of snow making base will be skiable after 6" of fresh but not 6" of fresh on grass (for mere mortals at least), so that is also a factor.


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## marcski (Aug 31, 2009)

I love Magic.....skied there as a kid in the early 70's...My dad was there in the 60's. 

Spending a lot of money on marketing only works if the product is good enough to have repeat customers.  

Without a doubt to survive today in southern Vt. Magic must have more and better snowmaking period.  They also need a lift that people aren't scared of because of things they heard.  (A new/used summit lift would certainly help and, of course, a HSQ would be ideal in that regard).  They also need a dedicated beginner area and lift.  

Without those things I don't think they could even get locals and/or schools to come out on any regular basis to make the place profitable. 

Snowmaking is the only logical starting point for investment.  The lodge talk is a huge red herring.  Give the people good snow and terrain....and a reliable way up...they will go.....regardless of the Lodge. 

It is unfortunate and will be a great loss if Magic goes NELSAP.   I'm keeping my fingers crossed...but Rivercoil made a great point about the Coop...being such a last ditch effort.


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## bvibert (Aug 31, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Also, a natural snow trail with a foot of snow making base will be skiable after 6" of fresh but not 6" of fresh on grass (for mere mortals at least), so that is also a factor.



I've wondered about that, if the trails would lose some character by have a man made base.  Probably not, but I'd hate for Magic to lose any of the good stuff that it has.  I also wonder how many of their natural trails they could run snow making pipe up without ripping them up too much??

6" on grass isn't nearly as difficult as 6" on rocks and such.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Snow making would actually attract MORE core customers, not just visitors. How many times have we seen Magic struggling to barely get one or two runs open for the Christmas holiday or even open at all prior to the New Year? To hell with folks that want to take a ski weekend, that is not even going to attract people that like and enjoy Magic. At least if the major routes were covered the die hards might show up for a few groomer runs. They might sell more season passes too if people knew they would get four months or more from their pass instead of barely three. Snow making in today's market is an absolute must for all areas except MRG (bunny and the base area with one gun doesn't count).



What is their current snow making capacity?

percentage of terrain covered? Gallons of water available?  

While I agree that snow making is a must in today's market, there are areas with lesser terrain and lesser snow making doing more skier visits than Magic in worse locations.  Black is the one example coming up frequently in this thread.  Mount Abram I would think to be another and Magic has a major location advantage there.   If those two areas have better snow making equipment and capacity, I would anticipate Magic to make up the difference in natural.

I skied Magic a fair amount in the late 80's and it was known then. It wasn't Okemo, Mount Snow or Stratton, but it was pretty much right there with Bromley.  My family traveled over quite frequently from Okemo and while far from Okemo in terms of overall development, it had a buzz, especially with the Timerside offering.  It has completely fallen off the map in the past 15 years and I think much of that is marketing.  

An example in marketing would be the best restaurant in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.  The Dunaway now is doing less than half the revenue it was doing only two years ago because of marketing even though the food is arguably better.  New ownership gambled that word of mouth marketing would be enough and the place has tanked on that gamble.  

I stand by my belief that marketing is where the money needs to go.  Market 'cheap' for now and 'on the rise' for the future.  Pretty much exactly what is working so well even in a down economy at Saddleback.  The 'on the rise' stuff doesn't even need to be accurate.  Saddleback seemingly changes their master plan each month.....BUT the moment they buy even a new snowmobile, they scream at the top of the lungs that they got it and how happy people are that they do.


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## bvibert (Aug 31, 2009)

marcski said:


> a HSQ would be ideal in that regard



I agree with many of your other points, but completely, absolutely disagree with the above statement.  If a new lift is needed, which seems likely given the red chair's recent history, then a newer used fixed grip double or triple would fit the bill.

I would not, under any circumstances, put a HSQ in it's place if I had anything to do with it.  IMNSHO


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## Geoff (Aug 31, 2009)

marcski said:


> ...but Rivercoil made a great point about the Coop...being such a last ditch effort.



I'm not surprised that Magic is having difficulty selling their financial instrument.  It in no way resembles the MRG co-op.  At Mad River, everybody has an equal ownership stake and an equal vote in the meetings.


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## Beetlenut (Sep 1, 2009)

> A bigger issue is the water/Act 250 permitting. Lots of rumours were flying about increasing the ponds. I'm out of the loop at this point. I don't know what the status is.
> 
> They have access to plenty of water from Lowell Lake and the connectin is already in place
> 
> ...


 
According to Magic's web site, they have 70% snow making capacity.So that would imply that the pipe infrastructure is already there to lay down snow on the major runs and cruisers. The quotes above were from various threads over the last few years. So, did Magic ever get that snow making pond enlarged? Or increase their access to more snow making water? Or is it a case of money for fuel to run the generators to pump the water up the hill? Seems they were headed in the right direction and already had the necessary equipment to put down early season snow, but were lacking sufficient water to do so.


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## marcski (Sep 1, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I agree with many of your other points, but completely, absolutely disagree with the above statement.  If a new lift is needed, which seems likely given the red chair's recent history, then a newer used fixed grip double or triple would fit the bill.
> 
> I would not, under any circumstances, put a HSQ in it's place if I had anything to do with it.  IMNSHO



Personally, I agree with you. I don't care that much to be honest about having HSQ's.  And....considering the terrain at Magic...having a nice 15 mins rest on the lift is well-deserved.  However, I do think that if you are trying to increase your skier base....and increase skier days to be profitable....in this day and age, a HSQ is a draw.  

Either way...snowmaking by far No. 1 priority for Magic.  Period.


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## Sorcerer (Sep 1, 2009)

Beetlenut said:


> According to Magic's web site, they have 70% snow making capacity.So that would imply that the pipe infrastructure is already there to lay down snow on the major runs and cruisers. The quotes above were from various threads over the last few years. So, did Magic ever get that snow making pond enlarged? Or increase their access to more snow making water? Or is it a case of money for fuel to run the generators to pump the water up the hill? Seems they were headed in the right direction and already had the necessary equipment to put down early season snow, but were lacking sufficient water to do so.




Magic has snow making pipe that probably covers 70% of the mountain. Some of the pipe probably needs repair but they routinely make snow on the eastside (beginner/intermediate trails and Trick) and on Wizzard and Talisman on the westside (steep side). Sorcerer has some of the newest pipe on the mountain but snow hasn't been made on it for a few years. The snowmaking pond was upgraded recently but the capacity wasn't increased. I believe the approvals for enlarging the pond are in place and could be finalized in a very short time. There is also a connection from the stream that runs to Lowell Lake from which water can be pumped with some restrictions on flow rates (protecting fish).

The problem with having snow for Christmas is starting soon enough to make it.

There are restrictions on how much can be made ( the pond does have to be enlarged) but there is enough capacity to cover more than is covered.

I think it comes down to the funds available and how and when to utilize them including repairing some pipe and expanding the pond.

PS the Red Chair is a lot more reliable than one would gather from reading this thread. In the last 5 years I can remember only one time when a wheel (shive?) went and the chair had to run slowly to unload people. Alsothe Red Chair was down for a period of time 2 years ago (The Black Chair was used) because the shive? trains were sent out for rebuilding (prior to opening) and didn't come back for almost a month after the mountain opened.

The slow Red Chair makes it to the top (one mile) in 12 minutes.


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## Talisman (Sep 1, 2009)

Assuming the pipe is in place and in good repair (which in Magic's case isn't true), labor, snow guns, compressed air and water in ample supply are required.  Magic has made some decent snow on a few of the trails, but lacks water and only has a few air compressors.  Major snow making pipe failures have occured flooding trails in the past with a spot up hill from the Black chair being a memorable ice patch.

With enough water, compressed air, labor and the will to use them Magic could be a SoVT gem for experts, intermediates and novices.  To be viable Magic needs to solve the snow making issues to get more than Talisman, Wizard, Trick and Magic Carpet open on faux snow.


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## bvibert (Sep 1, 2009)

Sorcerer said:


> PS the Red Chair is a lot more reliable than one would gather from reading this thread. In the last 5 years I can remember only one time when a wheel (shive?) went and the chair had to run slowly to unload people. Alsothe Red Chair was down for a period of time 2 years ago (The Black Chair was used) because the shive? trains were sent out for rebuilding (prior to opening) and didn't come back for almost a month after the mountain opened.
> 
> The slow Red Chair makes it to the top (one mile) in 12 minutes.



I'm not trying to bash the place, I actually love the red chair and hope they can keep it in place, but I remember at least two occasions last year where the red chair had problems.  One of the times a forum member was stuck on it for a while and had to be evacuated.  I know that sometimes shit just happens, but there's no denying that it's an old chair.  Maybe it just needs to get some TLC.


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 1, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> I hate to be the nay sayer here, I LOVE Magic and want to see it open. But people verbally committed because they have heart. They are taking their time writing checks because they have an objective look at the situation. It is a extremely risky proposition to invest in Magic right now, especially at the price of $3000 per share. The ski area is unstable and lacks the needed capital to make critical long term investments. That whole 60/20/20 split on ownership would be tough to swallow as well, even with shareholders having a majority stake. Going coop should not be a decision of last resort but a decision in spirit of the mountain and its long term needs. This is too desperate to appear a wise financial investment. I suspect the folks who put their money with their mouth is on this deal are doing so with a lot of heart for the mountain, which I deeply respect as the mountain has long since captured my heart. But I don't think heart alone will save any mountain that close to ruin from financial failure... sucks as it may, Magic needs a corporate buyer, IMO, and this is a tough time to find one. Especially given how similar purchases have gone lately (e.g. Burke).



The people I am referring to are people who were very much in favor of this situation @ the end of last year knowing fully what it meant.  Some of them friends of mine.  Anyone who thinks this is a finacial investment is nuts.

This is simply a rally cry to save a mountain which has been very good to us & a huge bargain for many years.  I see my 3K as payback & only want the mountain to remain open in return.

The thought of any high speed lift @ Magic is ridiculous.  The mountain skis BIG & as someone else said the 15 minute lift ride is welcomed.  On storm days have fun skiing the lower mountain because the fancy high speed quad is on wind hold.  I'll take the Red chair & ski the best terrain in Southern Vermont.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I'm not trying to bash the place, I actually love the red chair and hope they can keep it in place, but I remember at least two occasions last year where the red chair had problems.  One of the times a forum member was stuck on it for a while and had to be evacuated.  I know that sometimes shit just happens, but there's no denying that it's an old chair.  Maybe it just needs to get some TLC.



The fact that it was closed for almost a month certainly is not great, considering that the season is so short.


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## bvibert (Sep 1, 2009)

marcski said:


> Personally, I agree with you. I don't care that much to be honest about having HSQ's.  And....considering the terrain at Magic...having a nice 15 mins rest on the lift is well-deserved.  However, I do think that if you are trying to increase your skier base....and increase skier days to be profitable....in this day and age, a HSQ is a draw.
> 
> Either way...snowmaking by far No. 1 priority for Magic.  Period.



I agree that a HSQ might be a big draw to some people, but IMHO it would totally change the character of the mountain, and they likely wouldn't be able to run it as much on windy days like they can with the current red chair.  I think they can draw enough people by making other improvements while still keeping the red chair.  If they start to get busy enough that the red chair has a line they can always fire up the black chair to up the capacity.  Not to mention that if they ever put a chair in the green chair line then they'll have plenty of uphill capacity for what they have.  Plus, like you said, the rest you get from the red chair is nice.  I've never found the ride to be too long, especially when red line is open and you can watch people either ripping down it or picking their way down like me..


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## roark (Sep 1, 2009)

Sorcerer said:


> PS the Red Chair is a lot more reliable than one would gather from reading this thread. In the last 5 years I can remember only one time when a wheel (shive?) went and the chair had to run slowly to unload people. Alsothe Red Chair was down for a period of time 2 years ago (The Black Chair was used) because the shive? trains were sent out for rebuilding (prior to opening) and didn't come back for almost a month after the mountain opened.
> 
> The slow Red Chair makes it to the top (one mile) in 12 minutes.


 
I've been meaning to comment on this - a lot of work has been done on the red chair in the last 2 years. AFAIK It should be in good shape for some time to come. We just hear about it b/c 2knees got stuck on it last year. Given that there is almost never a line of any significance that 12 min is still quicker than waiting in line for a 'faster' detachable at  a mcmountain. Slow is better for safety meetings as well 

The black chair however... :-?


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## roark (Sep 1, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> On storm days have fun skiing the lower mountain because the fancy high speed quad is on wind hold. I'll take the Red chair & ski the best terrain in Southern Vermont.


Quoted for truth. 

I learned my lesson years ago - if it's windy Magic is often the only place in S VT with a chair going to the top. (In fact I recall a certain AZ gathering that was relocated from Sneaux to Magic for that reason - WTF we were going to Sneauz in the first place I can't recall... ) Plus the generally narrower trails hold snow better in the wind, and if the wind does indeed blow the snow off the trail it ends up in the trees, which is where I'd likely be anyway. Win all around.


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## 2knees (Sep 1, 2009)

roark said:


> We just hear about it b/c 2knees got stuck on it last year.



its unfortunate because its not meant to be a bash from me on magic.  We just like to bust each others stones and that happens to be low hanging fruit.

I love the red chair, i need the 15 minute rest time and its always running in windy weather.  I've skied Magic 4 times in the last 2 years.  It would've been 6 times but for that lift breakage last year and the year prior, I showed up with money in hand only to be turned away cause the lift was broken.  So i guess I've just had terrible timing.  1/3 of my potential visits of 2 years have been skunked by lift issues.  I'm not complaining, cause i'd keep going back if i had to ride a t-bar up black line to ski it, but its unfortunate for them in terms of business and revenue.


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## MR. evil (Sep 1, 2009)

2knees said:


> its unfortunate because its not meant to be a bash from me on magic.  We just like to bust each others stones and that happens to be low hanging fruit.
> 
> I love the red chair, i need the 15 minute rest time and its always running in windy weather.  I've skied Magic 4 times in the last 2 years.  It would've been 6 times but for that lift breakage last year and the year prior, I showed up with money in hand only to be turned away cause the lift was broken.  So i guess I've just had terrible timing.  1/3 of my potential visits of 2 years have been skunked by lift issues.  I'm not complaining, cause i'd keep going back if i had to ride a t-bar up black line to ski it, but its unfortunate for them in terms of business and revenue.



+1

I was there both those days. I have also skied Magic 4 times in the past 2 years, should have been 6 except for the lift issues. I guess 2knees and I are not allowed to ski Magic at the same time. Two attempts and two days with a busted lift. I really hope Magic is open this season and we get a 3rd chance at it Pat.


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## snafu (Sep 1, 2009)

Okay to reiterate a couple of points that have already been beat to death:

1. Snowmaking - top priority. What Magic needs is the perception of consistency. Knowing that there will be trails open and skiable at pretty much any time of the season is key. Get a good man-made base and anything else mother nature provides is gravy.

3. The lifts - The Red chair has all the makings of a classic chairlift in the vein of the single at MRG - keep it turning and have the black chair ready for additional capacity.

3. The Lodge - was great last year. Didn't try much of the food, but the apres at the bar was relaxing. The kids had fun, I had beer, mom had a drink and there was more than enough room for more to enjoy.

The one topic that was barely touched upon was a viable beginners area. The rope tow on the bunny slope is awful. If you can possibly hold on to the arm when it zips by at the bottom you have to pray that everyone stays on so they don't have to stop it. If they stop it you mine as well get off and ski down from where you are, since you have zero chance of holding on when that bad boy restarts. And I am talking about me, 6' 2" 200lbs, not being able to hold on once that tow restarts. The kids have no chance. So to me Magic does not have a usable beginner area, which doesn't help bring in the families with kids. If money weren't an issue I would get a nice magic carpet in there, have it go a bit higher up the hill and that would definitely be a selling point to skiers with small kids. Other than that your 3 choices at Magic are, go all the way to the top, get jerked around on the bunny slope tow or go tubing. Not many options there.


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## roark (Sep 1, 2009)

snafu said:


> The one topic that was barely touched upon was a viable beginners area. The rope tow on the bunny slope is awful. If you can possibly hold on to the arm when it zips by at the bottom you have to pray that everyone stays on so they don't have to stop it. If they stop it you mine as well get off and ski down from where you are, since you have zero chance of holding on when that bad boy restarts. And I am talking about me, 6' 2" 200lbs, not being able to hold on once that tow restarts. The kids have no chance. So to me Magic does not have a usable beginner area, which doesn't help bring in the families with kids. If money weren't an issue I would get a nice magic carpet in there, have it go a bit higher up the hill and that would definitely be a selling point to skiers with small kids. Other than that your 3 choices at Magic are, go all the way to the top, get jerked around on the bunny slope tow or go tubing. Not many options there.


RustyGroomer mentioned the beginner thing earlier - it is important to bring in families... I know first hand - my beginner wife is not a fan of magic... There's actually an area off to lookers right in front of the condos, I believe that was once the beginner area (or maybe just planned to be?). Nicer b/c you don't have folks maching down to maintain speed on the flat back to the red chair mixing with beginners like the current set up. Ideally there could be a magic carpet or chair like the beginner area Mt Snow over there.


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## Moe Ghoul (Sep 1, 2009)

Sounds like Magic has its plate full to get things turned around. Improving snow making and safe reliable lift service should be their top priority. You can't open or ski without that. Heavy promotion with some deals and discounts to attract a bigger crowd and get some cash flow while improving the beginners end of it into the following season will give them another promotional point of sale for next season. I'd hate to see them trying to tackle 10 things and overreaching rather than just focusing on a few big issues and doing it successfully. That'll instill some confidence and hopefully encourage more peeps to become shareholders. I think the 3 grand per share price is steep as well, they should consider fractional shares at $500 for non voting share and you get a few lift tickets each year as the "dividend". And I've never even skied there yet.


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## bvibert (Sep 1, 2009)

roark said:


> RustyGroomer mentioned the beginner thing earlier - it is important to bring in families... I know first hand - my beginner wife is not a fan of magic... There's actually an area off to lookers right in front of the condos, I believe that was once the beginner area (or maybe just planned to be?). Nicer b/c you don't have folks maching down to maintain speed on the flat back to the red chair mixing with beginners like the current set up. Ideally there could be a magic carpet or chair like the beginner area Mt Snow over there.



It's my understanding that the area you're talking about was a functioning beginner's area years ago, with a chair and/or surface lift at the time.  I think there's some old trail maps floating around showing it as such.


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## Beetlenut (Sep 1, 2009)

bvibert said:


> It's my understanding that the area you're talking about was a functioning beginner's area years ago, with a chair and/or surface lift at the time. I think there's some old trail maps floating around showing it as such.


 
That's also my recollection, back when Timberside was a functioning part of Magic. The beginner area was off to the right hand looker's side of the mountain by itself, where the Little Dipper trail is now.


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## Mapnut (Sep 1, 2009)

Here's an old trail map, I don't know what year:  http://teachski.com/brochures/magic/magic3.jpg showing the beginners' slope, Hocus Pocus, and a 1500-foot double chair.


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 1, 2009)

roark said:


> RustyGroomer mentioned the beginner thing earlier - it is important to bring in families... I know first hand - my beginner wife is not a fan of magic... There's actually an area off to lookers right in front of the condos, I believe that was once the beginner area (or maybe just planned to be?). Nicer b/c you don't have folks maching down to maintain speed on the flat back to the red chair mixing with beginners like the current set up. Ideally there could be a magic carpet or chair like the beginner area Mt Snow over there.



Yup, that's where the old beginner area was & where I learned to ski.  They had a great little double over there.  Nice thing about it was it had multiple routes down.  You could come right down the middle in front of the condos.  Head even farther lookers right down Rabbit Run.  Head lookers left of the chair & you could head down the lower part of Lower Magician.

It was truly a great learning area.

Already posted these but since we're back on this topic.












I don't even have kids & realize this is without a doubt a huge need for the mountain.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I stand by my belief that marketing is where the money needs to go.  Market 'cheap' for now and 'on the rise' for the future.  Pretty much exactly what is working so well even in a down economy at Saddleback.  The 'on the rise' stuff doesn't even need to be accurate.  Saddleback seemingly changes their master plan each month.....BUT the moment they buy even a new snowmobile, they scream at the top of the lungs that they got it and how happy people are that they do.



this is exactly what I'm talking about :lol:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/62158-what-s-new-saddleback-maine-2009-2010-season.html

'freshies' every day of the season?  biggest glade in the Northeast even though White Face is building one that is 25% bigger.


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## 2knees (Sep 1, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> this is exactly what I'm talking about :lol:
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/62158-what-s-new-saddleback-maine-2009-2010-season.html
> 
> 'freshies' every day of the season?  biggest glade in the Northeast even though White Face is building one that is 25% bigger.



i hear what you're saying but Saddleback doesnt have anywhere near the snow issues that Magic does.  It snows pretty well in central maine, much more so then at 2,800 feet in southern vermont, with a base barely above 1,000 feet.  Marketing is great, but getting consistent snow and being able to scream that you're open for christmas week is a bit more important.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2009)

2knees said:


> i hear what you're saying but Saddleback doesnt have anywhere near the snow issues that Magic does.  It snows pretty well in central maine, much more so then at 2,800 feet in southern vermont, with a base barely above 1,000 feet.  Marketing is great, but getting consistent snow and being able to scream that you're open for christmas week is a bit more important.



They do have an advantage of probably 4 feet more natural a season and elevation to preserve snow.

They also have a 4 plus hour ride from Boston on ridiculous roads to a location in the middle of no where that offers skiing and snowmobiling, that's it.

Magic is under 2 hours from Albany, 3ish from Boston and Hartford.  That part of VT is loaded with off hill activities and there are already close to 2 million skier visits already right there.  

I'm not denying that Magic has snowmaking issues, but with the best expert terrain in Southern VT and two years of great natural snow combined with all the traffic that's already there, my first order of business would be getting a master at marketing and beefing up that budget.  They definitely should be doing at least 50K skier visits with what is already there.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> They do have an advantage of probably 4 feet more natural a season and elevation to preserve snow.
> 
> They also have a 4 plus hour ride from Boston on ridiculous roads to a location in the middle of no where that offers skiing and snowmobiling, that's it.
> 
> ...



+ 1.  Their biggest problem is that they had 16k skier visits if not this season than the one before.


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 1, 2009)

FYI 2Knees, I have had a pass @ Magic since the late 70's & have only been evac'ed once.  Not denying the Red Chair has had a few issues but don't be offended if you yell "single" & I look the other way.


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## midd (Sep 1, 2009)

seems the market has essentially dictated the fate of magic.  tough to argue with the masses.  

if anything, pining for it to retain character seem like sure fire ways to ensure its closure. unless they're bankrolled by a wealthy family content with losing momey, no mountain desires to be a hidden gem.


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## roark (Sep 1, 2009)

midd said:


> seems the market has essentially dictated the fate of magic.  tough to argue with the masses.
> 
> if anything, pining for it to retain character seem like sure fire ways to ensure its closure. unless they're bankrolled by a wealthy family content with losing momey, no mountain desires to be a hidden gem.


bring your 'momey' to magic next season and I'll give her the tour, errrrr.... come to magic and I'll show you around, I'm sure you'll feel it's worth saving.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2009)

roark said:


> bring your 'momey' to magic next season and I'll give her the tour, errrrr.... come to magic and I'll show you around, I'm sure you'll feel it's worth saving.



definitely worth saving, but midd has a point about market dictating survival.  With how great I remember it, it's really hard for me to imagine why only 16K people would go there. ESPECIALLY with how the sport has become so much more 'hardcore' over the past two decades with the press further pushing everything extreme about the sport.

Speaking of that, perhaps what Magic really needs is the best damn park in the east.  Put every cent of snowmaking into two top to bottom kick ass parks and leave the rest to those who want the old school.

regardless of infrastructure investment, something has to be able to be done to bring more than 16K people to the mountain each winter.


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## riverc0il (Sep 1, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I stand by my belief that marketing is where the money needs to go.  Market 'cheap' for now and 'on the rise' for the future.  Pretty much exactly what is working so well even in a down economy at Saddleback.  The 'on the rise' stuff doesn't even need to be accurate.  Saddleback seemingly changes their master plan each month.....BUT the moment they buy even a new snowmobile, they scream at the top of the lungs that they got it and how happy people are that they do.


But the thing is that Saddleback actually has something to market. They are investing in the mountain and creating a master plan, even if it does change frequently. Change is happening at Saddleback from new condos, new snowmaking, new terrain, new lift, etc. The mountain recently got bought by folks with passion for making the mountain something special and the money to do so. With Magic, the money issues run too deep and they can not even maintain what they have let alone expand and improve.

Don't get me wrong, Magic needs to improve their marketing, get more visibility with those not in the know, and change their image with those who are. But they need something more to market than just "the Mad River of SoVT."


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## riverc0il (Sep 1, 2009)

Speaking of Mad River and the coop ski format, I would just like to point out that hard core skiers don't keep MRG going as a coop. The families of MRG do. MRG is a family mountain more than anything. Just look around next time you are there or go to a shareholder meeting. Check out how many youngsters are skiing free or discounted due to mom and dad's season pass or mad card. Take away the family and I don't think MRG would be doing so well as a ski coop. 

Magic really lacks that community because of the current focus on selling its strongest aspect, the expert terrain and natural snow. But when you look at how much the most successful mountain with this expert approach takes (Ski It If You Can... and all), MRG is just as much about the kids as it is about the trees.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Speaking of Mad River and the coop ski format, I would just like to point out that hard core skiers don't keep MRG going as a coop. The families of MRG do. MRG is a family mountain more than anything. Just look around next time you are there or go to a shareholder meeting. Check out how many youngsters are skiing free or discounted due to mom and dad's season pass or mad card. Take away the family and I don't think MRG would be doing so well as a ski coop.
> 
> Magic really lacks that community because of the current focus on selling its strongest aspect, the expert terrain and natural snow. But when you look at how much the most successful mountain with this expert approach takes (Ski It If You Can... and all), MRG is just as much about the kids as it is about the trees.



definitely

I think Magic should go after the local family skiing market hardcore.  Get all of those former Maple Valley families coming there to augment the destination expert skier market.


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## bvibert (Sep 1, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> definitely
> 
> I think Magic should go after the local family skiing market hardcore.  Get all of those former Maple Valley families coming there to augment the destination expert skier market.



I agree 100% with the family thing.  Getting heavy into the park game may not be such a bad idea either, maybe.


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## Grassi21 (Sep 1, 2009)

bvibert said:


> I agree 100% with the family thing.  Getting heavy into the park game may not be such a bad idea either, maybe.



2 words... super pipe  ;-)


----------



## bvibert (Sep 1, 2009)

Grassi21 said:


> 2 words... super pipe  ;-)



:lol:


----------



## 2knees (Sep 1, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> FYI 2Knees, I have had a pass @ Magic since the late 70's & have only been evac'ed once.  Not denying the Red Chair has had a few issues but don't be offended if you yell "single" & I look the other way.



:lol:
hey, its not me.  I used to ski there quite a bit before the closure in the 90's, and i've been back at least once a year since 2000.  Its that Mr. evil guy that brings the bad mojo.  Only problems i've had are the two times i was meeting him to ski there!


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## bvibert (Sep 1, 2009)

2knees said:


> :lol:
> hey, its not me.  I used to ski there quite a bit before the closure in the 90's, and i've been back at least once a year since 2000.  Its that Mr. evil guy that brings the bad mojo.  Only problems i've had are the two times i was meeting him to ski there!



That dude is always causing trouble...


----------



## o3jeff (Sep 2, 2009)

2knees said:


> :lol:
> hey, its not me.  I used to ski there quite a bit before the closure in the 90's, and i've been back at least once a year since 2000.  Its that Mr. evil guy that brings the bad mojo.  Only problems i've had are the two times i was meeting him to ski there!



I was able to ski Magic with Mr.evil last year without a problem, maybe it was because his wife was there also and the lift knew better not to break down with her there.


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## billski (Sep 2, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Speaking of Mad River and the coop ski format, I would just like to point out that hard core skiers don't keep MRG going as a coop. The families of MRG do. MRG is a family mountain more than anything. Just look around next time you are there or go to a shareholder meeting. Check out how many youngsters are skiing free or discounted due to mom and dad's season pass or mad card. Take away the family and I don't think MRG would be doing so well as a ski coop.
> 
> Magic really lacks that community because of the current focus on selling its strongest aspect, the expert terrain and natural snow. But when you look at how much the most successful mountain with this expert approach takes (Ski It If You Can... and all), MRG is just as much about the kids as it is about the trees.


 
+1.  The complexion of MRG skiers is significantly different on a powder day vs.  a "regular" day.  You could say that about any place.   My daughter had a perfectly delightful day of blues and greens and never ran out of option.  Birdland was absolutely mobbed with munchkins dropping pizza and drinks all over themselves.  Definitely Family...


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## MommaBear (Sep 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> And as to niche, it is cool but it just seems that if people want that kind of terrain they go to MRG where the snow is more reliable.



Except for those of us that have snowboarders in tow.  We've never skied MRG simply because my snowboarding son wouldn't be welcomed.  He had a blast at Magic.  Even without a park - the kid can launch off or slide down anything he finds.


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 2, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Speaking of Mad River and the coop ski format, I would just like to point out that hard core skiers don't keep MRG going as a coop. The families of MRG do. MRG is a family mountain more than anything. Just look around next time you are there or go to a shareholder meeting. Check out how many youngsters are skiing free or discounted due to mom and dad's season pass or mad card. Take away the family and I don't think MRG would be doing so well as a ski coop.
> 
> Magic really lacks that community because of the current focus on selling its strongest aspect, the expert terrain and natural snow. But when you look at how much the most successful mountain with this expert approach takes (Ski It If You Can... and all), MRG is just as much about the kids as it is about the trees.



+2, 3 whatever.  Well said.  Magic absolutely needs to attract more families.


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## MR. evil (Sep 2, 2009)

o3jeff said:


> I was able to ski Magic with Mr.evil last year without a problem, maybe it was because his wife was there also and the lift knew better not to break down with her there.



I think your on to something there Jeff. I guess the red chair is smart enough to know not to F with Marge's skiing.


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## snafu (Sep 2, 2009)

MommaBear said:


> Except for those of us that have snowboarders in tow.  We've never skied MRG simply because my snowboarding son wouldn't be welcomed.  He had a blast at Magic.  Even without a park - the kid can launch off or slide down anything he finds.



+1 MRG is not an option for me. Nor any who choose to slide down sideways.


----------



## snafu (Sep 2, 2009)

Wait...it just occurred to me after my last post - Magic *should* follow MRG's model exactly - ban snowboarders. Thats the ticket. Listen me out. Its got to be the snowboarders bringing Magic down. Think about it. All that natural snow being scraped off by those knuckle-draggers. Magic simply can't afford that with the limited snowmaking they have, and not to mention how narrow some of the trails are...yeah thats it. Oooh, also the snowboarders must be doing something wrong on the Red chair too. Same thing I heard happened on the single at MRG, snowboarders just couldn't handle it. Thats the reason the Red chair has been having problems lately. They are just too much trouble than they are worth.


----------



## MR. evil (Sep 2, 2009)

I was thinking something similar. Making Magic a skiers only mountain along with the terrain could give it a unique edge in southern VT. But it might also hurt them as I have no idea how many of the customers are boarders. A seeded bump run would also be sweet!


----------



## Grassi21 (Sep 2, 2009)

snafu said:


> Wait...it just occurred to me after my last post - Magic *should* follow MRG's model exactly - ban snowboarders. Thats the ticket. Listen me out. Its got to be the snowboarders bringing Magic down. Think about it. All that natural snow being scraped off by those knuckle-draggers. Magic simply can't afford that with the limited snowmaking they have, and not to mention how narrow some of the trails are...yeah thats it. Oooh, also the snowboarders must be doing something wrong on the Red chair too. Same thing I heard happened on the single at MRG, snowboarders just couldn't handle it. Thats the reason the Red chair has been having problems lately. They are just too much trouble than they are worth.





MR. evil said:


> I was thinking something similar. Making Magic a skiers only mountain along with the terrain could give it a unique edge in southern VT. But it might also hurt them as I have no idea how many of the customers are boarders. A seeded bump run would also be sweet!



So know the plan is to start limiting visits based on what is strapped to your feet.  Good idea...

Edit: My sarcasm detector is in the shop.  Just in case you were joking...


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

Grassi21 said:


> So know the plan is to start limiting visits based on what is strapped to your feet.  Good idea...
> 
> Edit: My sarcasm detector is in the shop.  Just in case you were joking...



+1

I thought snafu was joking and Mr. Evil wasn't; then I thought maybe Mr. Evil was joking too, so I didn't say anything.

thanks for throwing out the bait Grassi


----------



## snafu (Sep 2, 2009)

:wink: I was joking, since I snowboard and I love Magic, well half joking anyway. Prejudice is prejudice plain  and simple. Don't call it "purism" or "tradition". 

Anyhow I don't think VT can support 2 skier-only mountains, co-op or not. But look at it the other way around. Make it a snowboard-only mountain. That would get some press, and probably some big backers behind it. Jake Burton are you reading this? The first Burtons were made in Londonderry if memory serves me correctly. Makes sense to me.

Now all you skiers sit back and let that one settle in for a second...how would that make you feel? Seriously. Not too thrilled I bet.


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## Marc (Sep 2, 2009)

Oh dear god, some please tell me we're not about to have a skier vs snowboarder/MRG ban discussion again.


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## 2knees (Sep 2, 2009)

Lock it up tight!!!!!


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## Marc (Sep 2, 2009)

2knees said:


> Lock it up tight!!!!!


----------



## MR. evil (Sep 2, 2009)

I have nothng against boaders and don't mind sharing the mountain with them. I was just stating that it might be a way to make Magic unique in that area of VT. There are several other hills in the area and this would Certainly distinguish Magic from the rest. But it would be very risky financially.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

snafu said:


> :wink: I was joking, since I snowboard and I love Magic, well half joking anyway. Prejudice is prejudice plain  and simple. Don't call it "purism" or "tradition".
> 
> Anyhow I don't think VT can support 2 skier-only mountains, co-op or not. But look at it the other way around. Make it a snowboard-only mountain. That would get some press, and probably some big backers behind it. Jake Burton are you reading this? The first Burtons were made in Londonderry if memory serves me correctly. Makes sense to me.
> 
> Now all you skiers sit back and let that one settle in for a second...how would that make you feel? Seriously. Not too thrilled I bet.



quit your whining 

just get some skis on man, MRG is the bomb


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## snafu (Sep 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> quit your whining
> 
> just get some skis on man, MRG is the bomb



Trolling my troll eh?;-) 

Okay since I'm the one who kind of started this I will gracefully bow out on the MRG bashing for now(I'll save it for another post). Magic's issues are too important to devolve this thread into something else. If anyone needs an angel investor Magic would be it.

One other (small) gripe with Magic - the logo. Isn't Magic about 2000' short of having any sort of snowfields at the peak? Its false advertising. Maybe a new logo would turn everything around. Yeah, that would change everything


----------



## Mapnut (Sep 2, 2009)

Speaking of the logo, Snafu, in Magic's home page http://www.magicmtn.com/ the logo is superimposed on a photo of a chairlift with nobody on it.  On a beautiful sunny snowy day.  Could they be trying a reverse Yogi Berra?  "Come to Magic, because nobody else does!"


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## wintersyndrome (Sep 2, 2009)

MR. evil said:


> I have nothng against boaders and don't mind sharing the mountain with them. I was just stating that it might be a way to make Magic unique in that area of VT. There are several other hills in the area and this would Certainly distinguish Magic from the rest. But it would be very risky financially.



Being closed on a powder day would make them different from other mountains in southern vermont :roll:

The thing is Magic already is different than most mountains in southern vermont....it has steeps and gnarly terrain...banning boarders would just choke it off from half of the market


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## 2knees (Sep 2, 2009)

I remember seeing a decent amount of mono-skiers there in the 80's.  Maybe they should ban snowboards AND traditional 2 plank skiers and make it a mono ski only mountain.  I hear its about to make a raging comeback.


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## Marc (Sep 2, 2009)

2knees said:


> I remember seeing a decent amount of mono-skiers there in the 80's.  Maybe they should ban snowboards AND traditional 2 plank skiers and make it a mono ski only mountain.  I hear its about to make a raging comeback.



Would that include teleboards?


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## 2knees (Sep 2, 2009)

Marc said:


> Would that include teleboards?



sometimes.


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## Glenn (Sep 2, 2009)

Sweet!


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 2, 2009)

snafu said:


> :wink: I was joking, since I snowboard and I love Magic, well half joking anyway. Prejudice is prejudice plain  and simple. Don't call it "purism" or "tradition".
> 
> Anyhow I don't think VT can support 2 skier-only mountains, co-op or not. But look at it the other way around. Make it a snowboard-only mountain. That would get some press, and probably some big backers behind it. Jake Burton are you reading this? The first Burtons were made in Londonderry if memory serves me correctly. Makes sense to me.
> 
> Now all you skiers sit back and let that one settle in for a second...how would that make you feel? Seriously. Not too thrilled I bet.



I have contacted Burton with no success but still have some possible avenues to try & get through.  

Sorry Magic, but I agree the logo does indeed suck.  It was made by old management, NOT the current guys.  It's certainly not up to me & I don't want to step over any boundries here, but if it were up to me, i'd love to see the old one revived.  Guy who did the art for the T-shirts made these.






Taken from my old trail map from the 70's


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## wintersyndrome (Sep 2, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Sweet!


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## 2knees (Sep 2, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Sweet!



I used to throw a mean daffy on those babies.


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## 2knees (Sep 2, 2009)

and on a more serious note, i believe i read earlier that they had till the 4th of sept to collect on the shares.  Will a decision on the upcoming season be made immediately thereafter based on the amount of shares that are actually bought or is there hope for some other means of survival.  anyone got anything.....

I'm gettin nervous.


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## Glenn (Sep 2, 2009)

2knees said:


> I used to throw a mean daffy on those babies.



Pics or it didn't happen.....   :-o


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## snafu (Sep 2, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Pics or it didn't happen.....   :-o



I think he was talking about the outfit.:grin:


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## madskier6 (Sep 2, 2009)

The Red Chair, while it's had a few isolated problems, is generally fine.  The Magic Business Plan says it's "in good working order.  Routine maintenance is required and will be completed annually to maintain the chair's reliability. . . ."

The Black Chair is the one that needs the work to make it a dependable chair for overflow.  Again, from the Business Plan: "In its current state there are some significant repairs and upgrades which need to be made as mandated by the State lift inspector.  The short term plan calls for investing the time and money necessary to assure that the Black Chair will pass all safety inspections and eventually operate as a triple chair.  The long term plan calls for replacing the Black Chair with a newer lift or designing a new lift layout servicing mainly the West Side."

The reference to "operate as a triple chair" refers to the fact that the Black Chair currently is a triple, but the State lift inspector requires Magic to only load a max of 2 riders per chair, I believe.

This nonsense about the lodge really amused me coming from people who haven't skied there.  I love the lodge in its current state & don't believe it needs upgrading.  Goniif's Den is a great bar!


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

It's the final countdown..come on guys..send Magic your money if you want to see them stay open..


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2009)

madskier6 said:


> The reference to "operate as a triple chair" refers to the fact that the Black Chair currently is a triple, but the State lift inspector requires Magic to only load a max of 2 riders per chair, I believe.



:blink:  What?  What is wrong with the lift?


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 2, 2009)

The Black chair was originally the Blue chair which was a double.  In the 80's when everything was bigger, Magic changed the double & added triple chairs.

Don't know much about lifts but it was meant to be a double.

www.chairlift.org

I'm sure you guys have seen this site but it tells you everything you need to know about lifts in New England & it's the work of my friend & VT housemate Orangegondola.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

what was the reason again for taking out the beginner double?   That was a great little beginner area; was where I learned to snowboard back when Stratton and Magic were the only areas in New England that allowed boarders, but you had to get certified to ride lifts to the top.

That fact in of itself is a reason to NEVER consider banning snowboarding at Magic.  It's one of the original two areas that allowed it.


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## Sorcerer (Sep 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> what was the reason again for taking out the beginner double?   That was a great little beginner area; was where I learned to snowboard back when Stratton and Magic were the only areas in New England that allowed boarders, but you had to get certified to ride lifts to the top.
> 
> That fact in of itself is a reason to NEVER consider banning snowboarding at Magic.  It's one of the original two areas that allowed it.



When Magic closed in the early 90's the beginner double was sold.


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## roark (Sep 2, 2009)

Sorcerer said:


> When Magic closed in the early 90's the beginner double was sold.


Many of the current problems seem to be a direct result of times when the mt closed - which is yet another reason why it's crucial that it opens this season.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2009)

roark said:


> Many of the current problems seem to be a direct result of times when the mt closed - which is yet another reason why it's crucial that it opens this season.



+ 1.  As I said, a ski area really deteriorates fast if not maintained.  Look at Maple Valley.  Sad   It would be great to see either a Saddleback or Crotched situation here.  They need a complete revamp, sad to say.  Snowmaking and lifts.  All lifts.  I won't say lodge....but hell, that sure did stir the pot!  :lol:


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## roark (Sep 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> All lifts.


Not really. Despite my emotional attachment... if the black were to be replaced (as in the master plan several years in the future) the red should make a serviceable backup/overflow for many years. They both go to essentially the same place anyway. As has been stated several times - the red is perhaps the best chair on a windy day in New England - fixed grip, over a narrow trail - well protected by trees, and unloads in a relatively protected area.

Have you ever even skied Magic TB? Some of your comments do make me wonder...


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## OldsnowboarderME (Sep 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> what was the reason again for taking out the beginner double? That was a great little beginner area; was where I learned to snowboard back when Stratton and Magic were the only areas in New England that allowed boarders, but you had to get certified to ride lifts to the top.
> 
> That fact in of itself is a reason to NEVER consider banning snowboarding at Magic. It's one of the original two areas that allowed it.


Is that when there was a rope tied on to the front of the snowboard so you had something to hold on to? :wink:


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## 2knees (Sep 3, 2009)

roark said:


> Not really. Despite my emotional attachment... if the black were to be replaced (as in the master plan several years in the future) the red should make a serviceable backup/overflow for many years. They both go to essentially the same place anyway. As has been stated several times - the red is perhaps the best chair on a windy day in New England - fixed grip, over a narrow trail - well protected by trees, and unloads in a relatively protected area.
> 
> Have you ever even skied Magic TB? Some of your comments do make me wonder...



I agree about the red chair. If it could be overhauled and used as a secondary or wind problem lift, it would be ideal.  Like you said, and many of us who have skied there have experienced, no summit lift in vermont is better suited to handle wind then the red chair.  Its death, taxes and the red chair on a windy day.  Not to mention, riding above redline provides some serious entertainment.

as far as replacing the black, i would love to see a fixed grip triple.  Definitely not any high speed lift, that would suck.  my days would be over by lunch time without the rest.


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## 2knees (Sep 3, 2009)

roark said:


> Have you ever even skied Magic TB?



No, but he did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night......


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## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2009)

iwon't said:


> Is that when there was a rope tied on to the front of the snowboard so you had something to hold on to? :wink:



Actually yes, the Burton Woody was still being sold and it had a rope.  I had a Burton Elite 150, the tail was split and there was a metal fin on the bottom like a surf board.  There were no snowboard boots at the time, people wore Sorels and the hard plastic bindings would dig into your ankles. Then someone got the bright idea of taking a ski boot liner and putting inside Sorels, which gave Burton the idea to make snowboard specific boots.

I rode about 5 a year versus 60-70 skiing for a few years, but gave it up.  Just never found myself enjoying it as much as skiing.


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## billski (Sep 3, 2009)

Of all the "marginal" areas, the one that suprises me the most is Whaleback. It's essentially transformed into a teen hangout. Somehow they are making it, though it's usually dead at night when I drive past and the time I skied there. it would be interesting to see how they are surviving. I think the 10 minutes to the punkers of Lebanon helps.

Magic has too much competition too close by. I see what you guys are trying to do - suggest a niche market. The only niche that readily comes to mind is windholds - there are none. "Cold? Too Windy? Come to Magic!" 

Other than that, they need to start attracting teems of people - if they can't get the overnighters, well, maybe they can start with on-snow events. How about bargain basement learn-to-ski programs? Incessant demo days. Free clinics. Steal away skiers from the other resorts nearby (hell, they're competing for the same skiers). 

I like the lodge. No need to invest further until they get the crowds. Ditto for the lifts. It's this critical mass think. Like the ski shop that's never open cause not enough people come.

By the way, where's the best, cheap but clean lodging near Magic?  The on-premises b/b has got a bad rep.  They need to get that rep cleaned up, even if it's not their op.


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## ts01 (Sep 3, 2009)

billski said:


> Magic has too much competition too close by. I see what you guys are trying to do - suggest a niche market. The only niche that readily comes to mind is windholds - there are none. "Cold? Too Windy? Come to Magic!"



OR - Less crowded, great views, relaxed atmosphere, and challenging terrain easily accessible in southern VT.  Everything that Stratton and Okemo are NOT.  I brought a family of groomer-oriented resort skiers (faves = Okemo, Stowe, Park City) to Magic one day over a crowded holiday weekend when the Mom just about lost it the day before at Okemo for all the reasons you'd expect (crowded slopes, dust on crust conditions, lengthy lift lines, etc.)  Next day at Magic was truly "magic" for her -- she stuck to the easier side of the hill with her younger kid, had tons of space, nicer conditions, and cruiser paradise.  Plus, her older kid was all over Talisman and Goniff Glades on several runs with our group.   In other words, the segment "is skiing that doesn't suck"  as in Alta, MRG, Berkshire East, Plattekill, Taos,  A-Basin, etc.  The "niche" is accessible for the weekend from Boston to NYC metro sprawl, or a side trip from Stratton, Okemo, Mt Snow, etc.  Oh, and less windy.



billski said:


> Other than that, they need to start attracting teems of people - if they can't get the overnighters, well, maybe they can start with on-snow events. How about bargain basement learn-to-ski programs? Incessant demo days. Free clinics. Steal away skiers from the other resorts nearby (hell, they're competing for the same skiers).



YES!  Bus trips from UMass / UConn would?  Show yesterday's lift ticket from Snow, Okemo, Stratton etc., and get $10 off today's ticket at Magic.  Put the butts in the chairs...



billski said:


> By the way, where's the best, cheap but clean lodging near Magic? The on-premises b/b has got a bad rep. They need to get that rep cleaned up, even if it's not their op.


 Londonderry Inn is certainly in the running.  Big comfortable old inn, nice people running it, 5 minutes from the hill.  http://www.geocities.com/wiccanblessings/londinn2.html


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## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2009)

ts01 said:


> OR - Less crowded, great views, relaxed atmosphere, and challenging terrain easily accessible in southern VT.  Everything that Stratton and Okemo are NOT.  I brought a family of groomer-oriented resort skiers (faves = Okemo, Stowe, Park City) to Magic one day over a crowded holiday weekend when the Mom just about lost it the day before at Okemo for all the reasons you'd expect (crowded slopes, dust on crust conditions, lengthy lift lines, etc.)  Next day at Magic was truly "magic" for her -- she stuck to the easier side of the hill with her younger kid, had tons of space, nicer conditions, and cruiser paradise.  Plus, her older kid was all over Talisman and Goniff Glades on several runs with our group.   In other words, the segment "is skiing that doesn't suck"  as in Alta, MRG, Berkshire East, Plattekill, Taos,  A-Basin, etc.  The "niche" is accessible for the weekend from Boston to NYC metro sprawl, or a side trip from Stratton, Okemo, Mt Snow, etc.  Oh, and less windy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so what you're saying is Marketing?  :lol:



Other lodging option would be the Inn at Weston.  Not too far and very nice.


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## RustyGroomer (Sep 3, 2009)

billski said:


> By the way, where's the best, cheap but clean lodging near Magic?  The on-premises b/b has got a bad rep.  They need to get that rep cleaned up, even if it's not their op.



The Blue Gentian?  I never stayed there but always heard it was pretty nice & affordable.  The Inn @ Magic is a little pricier but was redone a few years back & i've been in the rooms & they're nice.  Again never stayed there either.

Also heard good things about the Magic View Motel right down the road on RTE 11.


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## Dr Skimeister (Sep 3, 2009)

RustyGroomer said:


> The Blue Gentian?  I never stayed there but always heard it was pretty nice & affordable.  The Inn @ Magic is a little pricier but was redone a few years back & i've been in the rooms & they're nice.  Again never stayed there either.
> 
> Also heard good things about the Magic View Motel right down the road on RTE 11.



I stayed at the Magic View Motel last winter and liked it. It's pretty spartan but very adequate. There is a game room with a pool table downstairs from the rooms for apre billiards and beer drinking. Room cost includes a basic, cooked breakfast in a community breakfast room that lends a cool vibe to the lodging experience. Barbara, the innkeeper, even arranged for discount lift tickets to Magic for me when I told her I planned to ski there on of the days I stayed at her property.


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## Marc (Sep 3, 2009)

I hope they open so I don't have to wait until natural snowfall to do some touring.




Ok, and I'd probably buy a lift ticket now and again too, just out of principle.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2009)

I sat down this morning and read both the Placement Memo and the Business Plan for the mountain, which are found *here.*

In sum, the management really knows what needs to be done and it is overwhelming.  The fact that they need to offer a consistent product is repeated ad nauseum, and really drives the message home that their first priority is improving snowmaking.  The business plan sets out the projected capital projects, and that is first on the list.  They also have targeted marketing, improving the grooming fleet, completing the lower chairlift, ordering spare parts for the double and getting the triple back up and running again as part of the list.  And yes, they do have $100k listed for "lodge improvements," so that was on the list.  

The management and ownership get major kudos for sticking with this place, despite 9 out of 10 seasons of losses, some heavy.  If you don't believe me, read the business report.  This season they lost some money, but not as badly as it could have been.  Most impressive is that they have tripled the visits.  The first season they had 5,000 skier visits :blink: and this past season was 16,000.  They are optimistic that they can increase their share by over double again in the next three years.  They have a three-year plan which puts them at 35,000 skier visits in their third year, with a projected profit that year.  They are honest that the place will lose money for the first two years, but that they will turn it around in year three.  

While going from 16,000 to 35,000 might seem like "pie in the sky" thinking, I think that there is much potential here, especially if we roll good dice on the weather this season and they get the word out.  Folks want to ski, but if the conditions are good, they'd probably be interested in spending less on a day ticket than what Stratton or Mount Snow charges.  With this economy, folks will be looking for ways to stretch their dollars and Magic can tap that market.  

I hope that they can get enough investors on board.  They have proven that they can increase skier days and they do realize that reliability is what matters.  I hope that some of the folks on here who are passionate about the place voted with their dollars and stepped up when the mountain needed them.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 7, 2009)

I checked out the projected numbers and what I don't understand is how can skier visits more than double in over 5 years but insurance costs only rise 30%? I  just assumed there was a direct correlation...anyway maybe some rich local resident will just buy up a ton of shares..


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 7, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I checked out the projected numbers and what I don't understand is how can skier visits more than double in over 5 years but insurance costs only rise 30%? I  just assumed there was a direct correlation...anyway maybe some rich local resident will just buy up a ton of shares..



It's not generally a linear relationship like that.  Remember that their insurance is covering a lot of things that are pretty much fixed, like their employees.


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## wa-loaf (Feb 8, 2010)

Nice article in the Globe today:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ve..._in_to_save_magic_mountain_a_vermont_classic/


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## marcski (Feb 8, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> Nice article in the Globe today:
> http://www.boston.com/news/local/ve..._in_to_save_magic_mountain_a_vermont_classic/



Yes, great article, Wa-loaf.  I hope Magic makes it! (Lots of pop-ups though from that Globe site...got through and past firefox)!


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## Greg (Feb 8, 2010)

Speaking of Magic, anyone have any recent reports? It looks like all the signature trails are closed. I wonder if Wednesday's event will get far enough north to get some of that re-opened. Anyone want to take a guess on how much snow we would need to see the good stuff open back up? Would 6" do it?


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## Rikka (Feb 8, 2010)

Great front page article in The Boston Globe this morning about Magic's CO-OP plans.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ve..._in_to_save_magic_mountain_a_vermont_classic/

Rick


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## jrmagic (Feb 8, 2010)

Greg said:


> Speaking of Magic, anyone have any recent reports? It looks like all the signature trails are closed. I wonder if Wednesday's event will get far enough north to get some of that re-opened. Anyone want to take a guess on how much snow we would need to see the good stuff open back up? Would 6" do it?



Judging from what I saw this weekend, 6 inches would do just fine to open up pretty much the whole mountain and the woods should ski pretty good too. There's some bomb proof base down which just needs something softer on top to make it ski nicely.


Good article. The reporter spend most of the day there last weekend after the rainstorm. Its good to see that kind of exposure. Hopefully it will let others in the Boston Metro area know that the mountain is open.


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## orangegondola (Feb 8, 2010)

Magic should be great this weekend with the snow comming. After surveying the post R**n conditions I would venture to say everything will be good to go if we get 6"


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## RustyGroomer (Feb 8, 2010)

6", good to go.  The snowmaking crew has been doing a fine job.  We had fun playing on the mounds this weekend.  I didn't have the sack to man up & take this one from the top.  It was BIG.


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## jrmagic (Feb 8, 2010)

RustyGroomer said:


> 6", good to go.  The snowmaking crew has been doing a fine job.  We had fun playing on the mounds this weekend.  I didn't have the sack to man up & take this one from the top.  It was BIG.





LOL The trees in the landing zone could have been an issue with that one too:-D  I liked the one on lower trick last week.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2012)

Breaking news from SAM and Magic Mountain:  

http://www.saminfo.com/news/article.php?tid=5618

333 shares have been sold.  The goal has been met.  :beer:


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## rocojerry (Mar 6, 2012)

:dunce:  Magic!


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## WoodCore (Mar 6, 2012)

rocojerry said:


> :dunce:  Magic!




+1000 :beer:


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## Smellytele (Mar 6, 2012)

rocojerry said:


> :dunce:  Magic!



I will be back


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## RustyGroomer (Mar 7, 2012)

Great to hear SmellyTele!  We even ski with other Smelly tele's.  MMP being the worst pinhead of the bunch. :flame:


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

Rongcats!


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## ScottySkis (Mar 7, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Breaking news from SAM and Magic Mountain:
> 
> http://www.saminfo.com/news/article.php?tid=5618
> 
> 333 shares have been sold.  The goal has been met.  :beer:



That is awesome.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2012)

So now that the Coop is formed, I think I saw on FB that there was going to be a shareholder meeting to discuss plans for this summer and moving ahead.  Any folks have any beta on that meeting (if it has already happened)?  

Also, have they considered doing mountain biking in the summer or something else like that?  

What is the status on the Black Chair?


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## djspookman (Apr 19, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> What is the status on the Black Chair?



Black chair runs.


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## farlep99 (Apr 19, 2012)

They do plan on having some summer activities at the mountain this summer (and going forward).  The Black Line Brew Pub (BLBP) will be open (not 100% sure of schedule yet, I'd guess just weekends, but I don't know).  The mountain sent an email last week and at the end it said, "stay tuned for exciting news on summer fun and adventure at Magic."  So we'll see I guess


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## Scruffy (Jan 13, 2013)

Skied Magic today. Soft, sticky snow. I had Twilight zone, witch and Goniff Glades all to my self. It was a little thin, but doable.
Talisman skied nice soft bumps. Sorcerer was sketchy. The sun was out above the fog.


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## marcski (Jan 13, 2013)

Scruffy said:


> Skied Magic today. Soft, sticky snow. I had Twilight zone, witch and Goniff Glades all to my self. It was a little thin, but doable.
> Talisman skied nice soft bumps. Sorcerer was sketchy. The sun was out above the fog.



We need snow!!!


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## jrmagic (Jan 14, 2013)

It skied nicely yesterday but my legs were not ready for wire to wire mashed potato bumps. I quit around 3:00. Crazy warm up top.


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