# The Price of Gas



## SilentCal (Apr 13, 2005)

Have you changed your driving habits with the rising cost of gas?  

I try to limit my trips around town.  Way to many lights around where I live that you spend a lot of time idling at.  The kids are older now and don't mind taking the bus to the mall.  I'll still do my summer trips but I do pay attention more now to conserving fuel.   Gas in Western Mass is $2.12


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## riverc0il (Apr 13, 2005)

i had a record number of ski days this winter and spent more on gas than lift tickets....  so no


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## ctenidae (Apr 13, 2005)

My most frequent driving event is moving the car for street cleaning, so no, I haven't changed any. My car is relatively efficcient (computer's reading about 27 mpg) so it doesn't bother me too much to go wherever I want, anyway. Fortunately, I walk to work.


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## MichaelJ (Apr 13, 2005)

Not for skiing or hiking or other car-necessary activities; however, I am looking forward to switching to the bicycle for commuting to work (21mi r/t).


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## awf170 (Apr 13, 2005)

hasnt changed my driving habits :wink:  :wink: (think im getting my permit next week)


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 13, 2005)

I have changed how I drive my work vehicles..since both of them are on the road  most of the day. My suv I drive the same way I always drive.   :wink:


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## severine (Apr 13, 2005)

No change to me... I live within a mile of work (which is good and isn't...not so great on fuel mileage but at least I don't have to drive far) but all these doctor's appointments that are 40 minutes away are definitely making a difference.  I have no choice, though, so I'm just sucking it up.  I will admit that I do miss my fuel-efficient convertible right now...


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## skijay (Apr 13, 2005)

Well my snow tires come off on Thursday or Friday and I am replacing them with a set of new tires and downsizing from a 235/65/R16  to a 215/70/R16 which is the same size as my snow tires. Try finding a 235 size tire. 

The smaller size should increase my fuel economy slightly.  I am contemplating using my roof rack to carry bikes or buy a trailler hitch mount.  


I can not complain as I do get between 25 to 28 mpg with a compact SUV.

edit:  I have noticed that different brands of gas give me different fuel economy.  For some reason I get the lowest mileage with Mobil.  I have been using Sunoco but switched to Hess as it is cheaper in Western Mass where I tank up.  Hess is giving me the best fuel economy so far.


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## Vortex (Apr 14, 2005)

I have gone to taking 1 car up north sometimes, but I just wine alot about gas no real change yet.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2005)

I am really, REALLY surprised that there has not been a mutiny over the price of gas  :angry:  or at the very least some discussion about more efficient/different fuels.  Hybrids were hot, but interest seems to have tailed off...really confusing to me. :-? 

As for me, our car consistently gets 36-40 mpg highway, so it hasn't hurt us too much.  We have skied a lot and the price of gas was taken into consideration when it came to season passes last season...we went with Pat's because they were about 65 miles away and offered a $249 season pass (including March 2004)   .  Folks said, "why not Sunapee?"  and my response was at $259 vs like $600, we skied AND filled our car with gas handily.  It's like another 20 miles to Sunapee...

We have been buying the NH Toll Tokens, so that saves some $$$ and we also have been buying our gas at NH Hess stations because we're up there a lot and the prices are more reasonable.  

If prices continue to climb, we're going to be hiking a lot more in MA and Southern NH to save $$$ and taking the T to Revere Beach.  We do take the T to work everyday.... :wink:


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## hammer (Apr 14, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> I am really, REALLY surprised that there has not been a mutiny over the price of gas  :angry:  or at the very least some discussion about more efficient/different fuels.  Hybrids were hot, but interest seems to have tailed off...really confusing to me. :-?


Not that it would ever happen, but if we taxed gas as much as they do in Europe, I'd bet that it would result in a lot more conservation.

I read that gas prices, adjusted for inflation, are still a lot cheaper than they were in the late 70s, and that they will likely need to climb above $3.00 a gallon    before people will really complain...

Most of my driving is back and forth to work, 25 miles each way, in cars that range from 20-24 MPG.  I could get more fuel-efficient cars, but reliability and the ability to get through snow-covered roads is a lot more important than saving a few $$ on gas.

As far as gas costs and skiing go, the prices would have to get a lot higher before I would say "nope, can't afford to go skiing, it costs too much to get there."  Besides, one of the great things about living near the NH border is that a lot of decent skiing is close by.


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

I've been conserving by changing my driving habits..
I set the cruise control at 74 and just keep it steady..  Get more out of the tank that way..

The guy I carpool with drives a diesle Jetta that gets like 50 mile per gallon..  He drives Monday,Tuesday and Friday and I drive my Subaru the other days..

When I'm home at Hunter I hardly drive..  I walk to a lot of places..  Or catch rides with others..

My main mode of transportation to go skiing was walking cause I rent a house right at the base...

These prices do suck...
What makes me mad is they go up so fast when oil goes up but it takes days to come back down when the oil price comes back down...

I feel sorry for all the giant SUV owners with GWB stickers on thier cars...


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## BeanoNYC (Apr 14, 2005)

I was under the impression that Gas prices go up this time of year because the Oil Refineries are converting from producing Heating Oil to producing Gasoline.  This results in a supply/demand issue.  This is aggrivated by the "colder/longer" winter.  Can anyone confirm this?  At 2.25 a gallon this morning I've actually seen an improvement from earlier this week.


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## cbcbd (Apr 14, 2005)

Price here is around $2.30 for 87 octane...

I'm .8 miles from work so I try to walk as much as I can. 
In town I rollerblade everywhere - I get extra exercise, it's fun, but it's really hard carrying groceries back home 

For long highway trips I rarely go above 70-75mph. I just set the cruise around there and... cruise.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, my Dad is in the industry and he tells me that there are a number of factors that account for these high prices (at least that is what the sellers tell him...he is the purchasing agent for a Northern New England fuel company):




*War and security *(thanks GW).
*Supply and demand*, esp. with China on the rise.
*Increased demand thanks to more driving for the summer season* (we can get more 'cause people want to drive  :wink: ).
*Refineries changing product and the fact that there aren't many refineries anymore *and they are expensive to operate (esp. when there are explosions like the one we had a few weeks ago).

Now there has been a movement to "simply drill for more" in Alaska, but that is in conflict because a). there isn't much up there, and b). it doesn't solve the problem of overconsumption...


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

Also the declining dollar is driving oil prices up...

The dollar... GWBs bastard child...


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## ctenidae (Apr 14, 2005)

Oil prices have actually been coming down all week, which is good, but I don't think it'll hold. A lot of worry is getting priced out, but all it will take is an oil-related disaster (and probably not a big one) and we could see the $105 spike Goldman Sachs scared everyone with last week.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> Also the declining dollar is driving oil prices up...
> 
> The dollar... GWBs bastard child...



YES!!!!  I knew I was forgetting something...the dollar has slumped in value significantly.  The only upside is that it will be cheaper to pay off national debt 'cause the dollar is so cheap right now, but when it comes to buying power, we don't have it.


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## ctenidae (Apr 14, 2005)

A weak dollar can be a good thing, don't forget. It does make imported goods (oil) more expensive here, which could spur the US to be more efficient (excuse me while I stop laughing at the ridiculousness of that comment), and makes our exports cheaper overseas, increasing production here. If BushCo would use the weak dollar to address our trade deficit, that would be fantastic. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening, either.
As much as it would hurt, the Goldman spike on oil could be a good thing, creating an economic incentive to conserve.


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## Stephen (Apr 14, 2005)

Another factor: No domestic oil expansion (thanks liberals)


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> Another factor: No domestic oil expansion (thanks liberals)



The fact that we have exhausted much of our domestic oil reserve (in the Earth that is) is not a liberal/conservative issue.   :wink:

If you're referring to ANWAR (which I believe you are...) there is much doubt as to the amount of oil in that area...many projections indicate that it is LOWER than we thought and not worth the efforts to get it.  That makes no sense at all. 

What we need to do is continue to develop new energy sources while continuing to clean up what we've done rather than sidestep the issue  :roll:


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## ctenidae (Apr 14, 2005)

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is jumping at the chance to drill in ANWR. It's too expensive, it's too big, and there's more than likely too little oil, anwyay. Plus Alaska is all set to raise the taxes on oil in the pipeline, making it even more expensive to get the oil out. One estimate I saw said oil would need to triple in price before it was economically feasible to drill ANWR. We'll get the Russian government to change their mind on Siberia long before that. As for other expansion, Texas and Oklahoma are pretty much tapped out for oil, but are still producing natural gas, as is Arkansas. There has been a slow down in exploration in the Gulf, that is partially due to environmental concerns, but is mostly due to the easy wells already being drilled. Deep water's expensive and dificult to operate in. 
So, it's in no way a liberal/conservative issue, except that, since the environment is involved in any way it's convenient and easy to slam "liberals". And if by "liberal" you mean concerned about the environment and our dependency on foreign oil, then sign me up.


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> What we need to do is continue to develop new energy sources while continuing to clean up what we've done rather than sidestep the issue  :roll:



YES!!! But we need the trillions we're spending on this horrible war to do it... (Thanks Conservatives)


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2005)

I try to do my part by turning off any lights or appliances that aren't being used...and encouraging others to do so :wink:

To be conservation minded, in my opinion, is a sign of strength and not weakness.


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## BeanoNYC (Apr 14, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
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Over the Oil companies lobbyists' dead bodies!


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> What we need to do is continue to develop new energy sources while continuing to clean up what we've done rather than sidestep the issue  :roll:



We are getting hammered by Bush and Company to deal with Social Security... RUSH RUSH RUSH....

What about our energy problems!???

The dude is legacy fishing...  Can't solve the oil crunch and not piss off all his Texas and Sauidi friends...  So he's going for SS...

What an ass...


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

BeanoNYC said:
			
		

> dmc said:
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'

...word....


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## Paul (Apr 14, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> Another factor: No domestic oil expansion (thanks liberals)









Have another glass of Kool-Aid, W mixed it all by himself this time!


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

Paul said:
			
		

> Stephen said:
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You better start fearing GWB or he'll raise the terror level again...


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## Paul (Apr 14, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> Paul said:
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Oh yeah, I forgot. Is it still at "Puce," or has it been elevated to "Off-Mauve?"


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## dmc (Apr 14, 2005)

Paul said:
			
		

> dmc said:
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Red... As in "red state"...  Or Red neck...


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## Paul (Apr 14, 2005)

> Red... As in "red state"...  Or Red neck...



In the "Red"...


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## ctenidae (Apr 14, 2005)

The energy bill that just got out of committee in the House, in a  nutshell:

The legislation would create mandatory reliability standards for the nation's transmission grid operators, increase oil and gas exploration on federal lands, speed up permit approval for the construction of new refineries, authorize funding for clean coal projects, and mandate the use of 5 billion gallons of the corn-based fuel additive ethanol annually.

Republicans defeated dozens of attempts by Democrats to alter the bill that would have required the U.S. to reduce oil consumption, raised fuel economy standards for vehicles, and required utilities to produce a portion of their electricity from renewable resources all failed.


From the article on www.marketwatch.com


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## thetrailboss (Apr 14, 2005)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> Republicans defeated dozens of attempts by Democrats to alter the bill that would have required the U.S. to reduce oil consumption, raised fuel economy standards for vehicles, and required utilities to produce a portion of their electricity from renewable resources all failed.



Sounds like the same "bury your head in the sand" tactics they used in the late 1990's.   :dunce:


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## ctenidae (Apr 14, 2005)

It's kind of funny, because it's typical of the reversal in Republican ideology I see. Used to be, the conservatives said "Spend less". Not so much so anymore. Things keep up, the Democrats are going to be the fiscally responsible ones.


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## Vortex (Apr 15, 2005)

I saw the price at the station across the street drop from $2.13 a gallon to $2.09.  Time to break out the band. :wink:


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## dmc (Apr 15, 2005)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> It's kind of funny, because it's typical of the reversal in Republican ideology I see. Used to be, the conservatives said "Spend less". Not so much so anymore. Things keep up, the Democrats are going to be the fiscally responsible ones.



GWB is running us into the gutter...  He's works best when the dollar is devalued...
It keeps his control on us to push his agenda...


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## Jaime86 (Apr 15, 2005)

Well prices here in Michigan are SLOWLY going down.  I am a thriving college student, going to school full-time and working part-time...still living at home and I can BARELY afford to get to and from work and school everyday.  In Mt. Pleasant, MI...gas is still about $2.42 for 87 octane...but in Big Rapids...which is only about 1 and 1/2 hours away...it's about $2.27...which it was just $2.38 a few days ago...so slowly but surely...I am sure that by this time next week it will probably have gone up again...so much for summer vacation...


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## hammer (Apr 15, 2005)

Has anyone here gone the diesel route?

I realize that the pollution situation with diesels isn't the greatest, but from what I've read, they appear to do better in terms of overall mileage.

I've had a few diesels as rentals when I've traveled to Germany, and they seemed to have decent performance...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> Has anyone here gone the diesel route?
> 
> I realize that the pollution situation with diesels isn't the greatest, but from what I've read, they appear to do better in terms of overall mileage.
> 
> I've had a few diesels as rentals when I've traveled to Germany, and they seemed to have decent performance...



But isn't diesel more expensive per gallon, which washes out the savings one gets from higher mileage?


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## ctenidae (Apr 15, 2005)

Trailboss- Yup. Makes no sense. I remember when diesel was cheaper than gas, lo these many years ago...


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## dmc (Apr 15, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> Has anyone here gone the diesel route?



My carpool partner drives a diesle Jetta...
Get incredible gas mileage...  He's going to start buying his diesle gas in bulk somehow..

Funny thing is people are CONSTANTLY asking him if he's check the oil(cause it rattles) or coming up to him at gas stations and warning him he's using the deisle pump...  

Great car... A little stinky but really cool...


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## hammer (Apr 15, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> But isn't diesel more expensive per gallon, which washes out the savings one gets from higher mileage?


You're right, but isn't the cost difference due more to taxes than to the "cost to produce"?

In Germany, diesel was actually cheaper...


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## bvibert (Apr 15, 2005)

Diesel is more than gas these days, but you get much better MPG, so its still gonna cost you less because you'll have to stop less for fuel.  Plus its not that hard to convert you diesel into running on used vegtable oil (alot of restaurants will give it to you for free since they have to pay to get rid of it..) or other alternative fuels.


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## dmc (Apr 15, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> Diesel is more than gas these days, but you get much better MPG, so its still gonna cost you less because you'll have to stop less for fuel.  Plus its not that hard to convert you diesel into running on used vegtable oil (alot of restaurants will give it to you for free since they have to pay to get rid of it..) or other alternative fuels.



Isnt diesle the same thing as heating oil?


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## ctenidae (Apr 15, 2005)

Diesel's more refined and lighter than heating oil. Very similar to kerosene, though.
Used cooking oil- it does work, but then your car smells like a french...oops, Freedom Fry.


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## bvibert (Apr 15, 2005)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> Used cooking oil- it does work, but then your car smells like a french...oops, Freedom Fry.



I fail to see the problem there...


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## Paul (Apr 15, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> ctenidae said:
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The problem is that you'd always be hungry, and have to stop at McDonald's, and become a lardass, and file a suit against fast food, and rack-up lawyer fees, and...and...and....


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 15, 2005)

Don't forget about methane, popular round these parts, bet the fry cars smell better.   

Crude has retreated this week to around 50 bucks a barrel...will it go down to 40 or back up to 50 and beyond....? 

Wind and solar does work and will reduce our dependence on oil. Nothing new there. Right now the supply side is fine but with an ever hungry China, no new refineries, the future doesn't look too good right now. The record trade and budget deficits are not helping. We now spend on our military more than all of the countries in the world combined.

Here is an example of wind power on a semi-large scale, reletive to Vermont, that you can see on the ridge heading west from Wilmington.
http://www.gmpvt.com/whoweare/searsburg.shtml

Congress needs to forget about ANWR and start thinking more about wind and solar.


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## Stephen (Apr 16, 2005)

Tried wind. Oh wait, the Kennedy;'s didn't want it in their back yard.

God, I love consistent liberalism.


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## ski_resort_observer (Apr 16, 2005)

Conserving natural resources is the origination of conservatism which over time has become dominated by right wing wackos. Wind farms are going up all over the country...you might want to duck.... :lol: 

Sound bites bring nothing to the discussion.


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## ctenidae (Apr 18, 2005)

Lengthy, but very well-written article re: environmentalists:
http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/05/issue/feature_earth.asp

Oil's not going to drop to $40, probably ever, and you can bet that gas prices aren't going to drop much. If we ever see it under $2 a gallon again, I'll be very much surprised. We'll soon see the needed economic incentives to change our energy policy. I hope.


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## Mike P. (Apr 20, 2005)

Change policy?  Even in Boston the Mayor refused to exchange his Expedition for a Hybrid Escape!  Obviously the AMC based in Boston is not politicing in Boston. :idea: 

Am I to think Dubya is going to reverse the SUV tax  credit & give them breaks for Prius'  Not holding my breath for that to happen.  For the short term can I get my Social Security personal savings account in Mobil & Exxon stock?  Which business is going to manage that, Citigroup or which ever bank or investment firm gave the GOP the most $$$$$$$$$$$$$$


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2005)

Mike P. said:
			
		

> Change policy?  Even in Boston the Mayor refused to exchange his Expedition for a Hybrid Escape!  Obviously the AMC based in Boston is not politicing in Boston. :idea:



Agreed.  Lots of hypocrisy.  Just remember that AMC is an OUTDOORS RECREATION LAND USE organization and not exactly a conservation group like the Sierra Club, but I agree with the thrust of the point.


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## dmc (Apr 20, 2005)

Mike P. said:
			
		

> For the short term can I get my Social Security personal savings account in Mobil & Exxon stock?



BAW HAW HAW...

Funny...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2005)

Great show on NPR today about the issue of gas prices and oil....you can listen to it under "archives"

www.theconnection.org

Thomas Friedman spoke.  Good guy who knows his sh^&.  :wink:


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## skijay (Apr 25, 2005)

Has anybody ever noticed that your car may run better or get better gas mileage with diffeent brands of gas?

For me Mobil gives the lowest mpg.
I used to buy Sunoco but discovered Hess gives better mileage and is cheaper.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2005)

skijay said:
			
		

> Has anybody ever noticed that your car may run better or get better gas mileage with diffeent brands of gas?
> 
> For me Mobil gives the lowest mpg.
> I used to buy Sunoco but discovered Hess gives better mileage and is cheaper.



Might have to do with water content.  

We have good luck with Hess.  

Your car's performance might better explain what you are noticing though...


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## MtnMagic (Apr 25, 2005)

Prices here are dropping nicely and I read an article last week in USA Toady that prices could fall .25 a gallon by summer. Even if the price increased, I'd still hike the Whites, then again I don't have far to travel.


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## hammer (Apr 25, 2005)

If you're complaining about the cost of gas, just be glad you don't live in California...

When I was there for vacation last week, the prices for regular unleaded varied from $2.55 - $2.85 per gallon.  This was the first time for me that a fill-up pushed the $50 mark.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 25, 2005)

Heard that the price is back on the rise today :-?


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 25, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> Heard that the price is back on the rise today :-?


I just paid 2.49..$60 to fill my suv. My van is $75 to fill it.


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## ctenidae (Apr 27, 2005)

News from Bush's talks with the Saudis isn't terribly happy. Apparently (and I think the Saudis have been saying this for a while) they're pretty much maxed out on production. There are really only two solutions, find more or use less. Well, three, if you mix the two. Unfortunately, it's such a polarized argument. I think the "find more" camp has a self-fulfilling prophecy going- if we don't reduce consumption, prices will rise to the point exploration and production in hard-to-reach places will become economically viable. Me, I'm expecting the Russians to cave on their 51% ownership requirement and start letting foreign companies develop Siberia, probably within the next 5 years (probably not while Bush continues shooting his mouth off about Pooty-Poot, though)


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## riverc0il (Apr 27, 2005)

good points from ctenidae.  my solution would be toss an additional thousand dollar tax on every new vehicle that gets less than 25MPG.  use that tax to subsidize the national gas prices.

think about it: what made the prices shoot throught the roof?  increased demand with a non-increasing supply.  what caused the increased demand?  people driving vehicles that get poor gas milage (higher population to a certain extent, but no one wants to control that, that's a whole nuther topic though...).  deter people from buying vehicles that have high consumption of gas, and if people decide they really need the vehicle, they should help pay for driving up demand.

essentially, we are all paying the same right now for the decisions of the few.  the few have decided to increase demand of gas by the vehicles they drive.  yet everyone pays the same whether you but a car that gets 35 or 15 miles a gallon.  obviously the person getting 15 miles a gallon is paying more to go the same distance, but that's their decision.  tax the vehicles most responsible for driving demand through the roof.  it's those people buying those vehicles that can clearly afford it any ways.  look for gas to start taking a serious hit on the economy if prices keep going up.  the price of just about everything is going to go up as transportation charges rise and between cost of goods increasing and gas prices increasing, people will buy less....

...unless they charge it.  any one hear the latest stats on the number of people in debit beyond their ability to repay?  uugh, crazy crazy world.

i just don't see looking for new sources of gas as an alternative here.  it's going to run out eventually, so even if you do find new sources of fuel and oil...  you still need to conserve now to plan for the future.  i guess that sounds ironic coming from someone that drives 200-300 miles a weekend for amusement and pleasure, but at least i do it responsibly at 35mpg.

i'll get off my soap box and high horse now.  flame away


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## bigbog (Apr 27, 2005)

I've driven Toyota Corollas religiously for ~18yrs and Hondas for over 7yrs....true I've driven a Jeep Cherokee for 4yrs and now a Honda and an Xterra, but I've done my fair share of conservation for 30yrs, and would definitely move to a new fuel source if someone would make it financially feasible....


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## loafer89 (Apr 27, 2005)

I think that you are absolutly correct. The end of the easy oil age is approaching, and will probably occur by 2030. For every 1 new barrel of oil that we find in the world today, we consume 6, do the math and things get ugly when you consider that we have discovered 90% of the world's oil supply.

We are tied to petrochemicals for all aspects of daily life:

It takes 400 gallons of oil to feed each american for one year.

The average car consumes 20-25 barrels of oil energy during its construction.

The average computer consumes 10 times it's weight during construction.

Estimates are that there will be a 2% on average growth in oil demand worldwide in the next few years along with a (conservative) 3% decline in production from existing
reserves. This means that by 2010 we will need on the order of an additional 50 million barrels of oil a day.

There was a fasinating, if scary article in the National Geographic about the end of the age of easy oil. Bottom line, we need to start conserving NOW, but the world is used to a diet of oil that it cannot maintain.


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## ctenidae (Apr 28, 2005)

Careful with those stats *loafer89*. While the overall thought is right, those stats are easily picked apart. For instance, they rely on known reserves, currently accessible with today's technology and economic incentives. As demand keeps increasing, it becomes economicaly feasible to tap other oil sources. The Peak Oil gang, while overall correct (oil is in finite supply), have been wrong every time they've predicted an end to the oil supply, simply because they didn't account correctly for technological improvements and economic incentives. Doesn't mean we're never going to run out of oil (even the abiotic oil folks agree we're using it faster than it's being replaced), just that the high-consmption/low-conservation folks will point to Peak Oil's failures as an excuse to do nothing.

I would tend to agree, in theory, with *rivercoil*'s idea- tax the gas guzzlers, add a tax incentive to efficient cars. You already get a $2000 tax credit on a hybrid. My younger brother just turned in his 20 mpg Maxima for a Prius. He figures he'll save $1900 a year on gas. Combined with the tax credit, the cost difference between the Prius and a comparable car is made up in less than 2 years. Bush is proposing expanding the tax credits to cover clean diesel and other high-efficiency vehicles, in one of the few policy initiatives I agree with. Next they need to start regulating the 18 wheelers, since they use the vast majority of oil, and their costs directly influence the cost of consumer goods. 
Gas prices have such an effect on the price of everything else that, when adjusted for inflation, gas doesn't cost any more now than it did in the 50's. That will, unfortunately, continue to be true, as rising gas prices increases the cost of everything else. Companies are trying to avoid adding the cost to consumers, but they can't keep that up very long and stay in business. There is a crunch coming, and we're all going to feel it.


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## Mike P. (Apr 28, 2005)

Cars need to use alternative fuel sources soon, the technology is available & even if hybrids are not a long term solution, they allow more time for technology to make fuel cells better.

If you have a concern that your big car won't climb hills as well, I'd rather take my chance in the car & then on Hybrid or alternative fuel airplanes until the science is fool-proof.  I can pull over in the car....

What is the answer for flight????? :roll:


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## Stephen (Apr 28, 2005)

I'm trying to convinve my wife to let me get a motorcycle. Better gas mileage. 

-Stephen


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## BeanoNYC (Apr 28, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> I'm trying to convinve my wife to let me get a motorcycle. Better gas mileage.
> 
> -Stephen



You can always get a Vespa then!   :lol:


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## loafer89 (Apr 28, 2005)

I think that the facts that I posted are fairly accurate and the end of easy oil is going to happen in my lifetime. I personally am very opposed to drilling in ANWR as the reserves that are predicted to be there are dubious at best, and the enviornmental damage has the possibility to be severe is an accident/spill should occur. 

While I understand the politics involved in keeping oil flowing to the Alaska Pipeline now that the north slope is running dry, the enviornmental risk is not worth it IMO.

Conservation and alternative energy sources like hydrogen/propane exist for motor vehicles, but they have been very slow to make it into the main stream market.

There are folks where I live that have 4 or more cars (daily driven) for only two people. The attitude among most folks here is that they are willing to pay double or triple the amount of money to fill up there cars, and that oil is a renuable energy source????

My facts came from: lifeaftertheoilcrash.net


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## Stephen (Apr 28, 2005)

loafer89 said:
			
		

> There are folks where I live that have 4 or more cars (daily driven) for only two people. The attitude among most folks here is that they are willing to pay double or triple the amount of money to fill up there cars, and that oil is a renuable energy source???



So, I HAVE to ask... do 2 people driving 4 cars use more oil & gas than 2 people driving 2 cars. It'd be a neat trick to see. 

-Stephen


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## loafer89 (Apr 28, 2005)

The neighbor owns a Hummer, Porsche, Jeep Grand Jerokee, and a Jaguar, for two people in the household, I think that is a bit excessive.

I worry about the fuel sources that will be available for my son when he is my age, especially when people waste fuel just to show off wealth or status.


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## ctenidae (Apr 29, 2005)

If he has a Hummer, why have a Jeep, too? So you have something to pull the Hummer out when it gets stuck?

Really, having a surplus of cars does, in the end, result in higher gas and oil useage, if you add in the resources used to produce those cars. And, since the Porsche and Jag probably cost more than the Jeep and Hummer, they also contibuted to the trade deficit. This guy's just six kinds of socially irresponsible.

loafer- just to be clear, I wasn't doubting the accuracy of your stats- they sound about right to me. Just giving you the heads up on their weaknesses, in case you need them in a fight.


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## loafer89 (Apr 29, 2005)

I agree, and it's a little frustrating to see someone with so many different kinds of vehicles, for what purpose? What's more is out of those four, the Hummer is one of the DAILY driven vehicles used most often :roll: 

I have nothing against suvs, I wanted to purchase the Kia Sorento, but 15mpg is kind of on the low side so I decided to stick with my Escort wagon a while longer. The hybrid suv from Ford looks interesting, if a little $$$$.

I hear you regarding my figures about the global oil supply, I just found the statistics interesting, so I posted them. I agree that there are probably other ways to get more oil out of our planet, but they may not be easy or enviornmentally sound.


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## Vortex (Apr 29, 2005)

I drive a Suv in the winter to ski and in the summer to go camping and pull my camper.  I drive a small car in the summer to commute to save a penny.  I took my ski racks of my suv last week....  Went from 17 to 21 MPG pretty quick. Left them off for this weekend.  Thats like 60 miles per tank wow. :idea:


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## Peter the great (Apr 30, 2005)

*I know how to make gas cheaper.... :idea:*

the way to make gas cheaper is to get bush out of office cause hes a moron. gas wold go down probly past a dollar. doo wha??  :blink: yeah imagine that.... not attacking that arab nations is a good Idea! 
wow..... never thought.


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## MtnMagic (Apr 30, 2005)

Up here in the North Country, gas prices continue to fall. Today's prices in two stations have dropped to $2.13 a gallon, down from $2.14 yesterday and from a high of $2.19 a week ago. Usually gas prices are $.10 less a gallon in Concord, NH. 

Looking forward to hiking several times a week again this year. How about an AZ outing in the Whites? Interested?!


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## bigbog (Apr 30, 2005)

:lol: , Yeah...there's nothin' like pummeling (or inviting outsiders to pummel) one of Saudi Arabia's rivals to stabilize those crude prices... :lol:   :roll:


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## skijay (May 1, 2005)

*a SMART idea.....*

I wish I could export this to the States.  I most likely could, but it would be cheaper to by a Chevy Aveo here and the Aveo is like a Lincoln in comparison to the Smart.

The car below is a Smart car.  It is sold by Mercedes Benz sort of like BMW / Mini.  I saw this one in the Wal-Mart parking lot in Sherbrooke this weekend.  I think it is about 8 feet long (it is about the length of a motorcycle), seats 2, engine is in the rear and gets about 70mpg,(it is a small 2 or 3 cylinder direct injected diesel.)  

The body panels are plastic, like a Saturn, but with a Smart car if you get bored with the color you just go to your MB / Smart facility and buy new ones and take the old ones off and put new ones on. This Smart had a fabric roof that slides back, like the old VW Bugs had. I think the price for this car is about $12,000 USD.


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## ctenidae (May 2, 2005)

They're close to getting the Smart Cars approved for US safety standards. Last I heard, they should be importing them in 2006. Price will be higher than $12K, I'm sure. They are very cool, though I don't know how well they'll do in the US- probably not much good on the highway, which is where we do too much of our driving, anyway. They're all over Paris, and it's amazing the parking spots they fit into.


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## ski_resort_observer (May 2, 2005)

Interesting looking car...looks like it backed into a brick wall. How well does it do in an accident?

Bush does bear some of the responsibility for the high price of gas but many of the reasons already mentioned are to blame as well. 

While recycling and personal conservation is increasing every year it doesn't take too many Hummers to tip the balance the other way.

The Saudis have told us they would be happy to pump more crude but it's pointless in that our production capacity/refineries are already topped out. While our thirst/need for the black gold has increased, no new refineries have been built in the last 20 years.

Until the demand slows down you better get used to these prices.


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## hammer (May 2, 2005)

For you big vehicle fans out there...I read an article in the Boston Globe about the 2005 International CXT-Commercial Xtreme Truck:

*At about twice a Hummer's weight, the Xtreme is just plain BIG*

They don't even put air bags in this truck...I guess they figure that you will just drive over any cars or SUVs in your path.  :-?


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## Greg (May 2, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> For you big vehicle fans out there...I read an article in the Boston Globe about the 2005 International CXT-Commercial Xtreme Truck:
> 
> *At about twice a Hummer's weight, the Xtreme is just plain BIG*
> 
> They don't even put air bags in this truck...I guess they figure that you will just drive over any cars or SUVs in your path.  :-?


That's just retarded:

http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/images/cxt_intl_yellow.jpg


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## ctenidae (May 2, 2005)

*That's just retarded*

Pretty much sums it up.


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## awf170 (May 2, 2005)

i bet i will see some really small asian lady driving it around lynn, even though she will never have anyone else in it or ever leave lynn


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## Stephen (May 2, 2005)

FINALLY! Something large enough to tote my family and all the gear for a week long camping trip! :lol:

-Stephen


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## thetrailboss (May 2, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> FINALLY! Something large enough to tote my family and all the gear for a week long camping trip! :lol:



And help melt the polar ice cap, kill the trees with acid rain, and help contribute to more breathing/asthma problems in your kids!!!  I can't wait!!!   :roll:  :dunce:


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## awf170 (May 2, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> FINALLY! Something large enough to tote my family and all the gear for a week long camping trip! :lol:
> 
> -Stephen



and u wouldnt even need to go to a campground, u could just set up the tent in the truck bed  :lol:


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## awf170 (May 2, 2005)

Greg said:
			
		

> hammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and if the one in that link isnt big enough here is the full size 4 door
http://www.shadetreemechanic.com/images/cxt_intl_red.jpg


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## riverc0il (May 2, 2005)

i keep getting passed on the highway by people doing 80+ MPH.  it struck me that no real change is going to occur until gas prices get high enough that no one drives faster than 55mph, which from my understanding is the most cost efficient speed without loosing a rediculous amount of time.  it would seriously save most of us hundreds of dollars a year.  but the cost of gas clearly isn't high enough for most people to act, most people just like to complain but still keep buying ineffiecent vehicles and burning gas like crazy.


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## skijay (May 2, 2005)

Gas up in the Eastern Townships (Quebec, CA) is .974 per liter for regular unleaded. 3.7 liters is 1 gallon.  That makes gas about $3.60 a gallon or $2.92 in US$  Gas has always cost more up there.


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## loafer89 (May 3, 2005)

The price of gas was $2.15 for regular in Rutland on sunday. Here at home it's $2.35 - $2.45 for the same gas. :evil:


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## ctenidae (May 3, 2005)

About 31% of the price of gas comes from taxes- different states/cities, different taxes.


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## pedxing (May 3, 2005)

I'm definitely trying to keep my highway speed down - but that means leaving for work on time, so its often 70 to work and 55 - 60 coming home.  55 does save about 15% on gas.


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## thetrailboss (May 3, 2005)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> i keep getting passed on the highway by people doing 80+ MPH.  it struck me that no real change is going to occur until gas prices get high enough that no one drives faster than 55mph, which from my understanding is the most cost efficient speed without loosing a rediculous amount of time.  it would seriously save most of us hundreds of dollars a year.  but the cost of gas clearly isn't high enough for most people to act, most people just like to complain but still keep buying ineffiecent vehicles and burning gas like crazy.



We've kept our speed down as well and I too notice folks driving way too fast.   :roll:


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## bvibert (May 3, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> riverc0il said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its amazing how fast it seems like people are driving when you're going the speed limit.


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## hammer (May 3, 2005)

bvibert said:
			
		

> Its amazing how fast it seems like people are driving when you're going the speed limit.


It's amazing when you're going 10 - 15 MPH over as well...

In any case, I tend to think that higher gas prices may result in people purchasing smaller vehicles, but I doubt that it will do anything to slow people down.


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## bvibert (May 3, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> In any case, I tend to think that higher gas prices may result in people purchasing smaller vehicles, but I doubt that it will do anything to slow people down.



I agree, most people wouldn't make the connection...


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## Paul (May 3, 2005)

Wow, seeing that truck makes me think of a certain song by Dennis Leary...... :wink:


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## riverc0il (May 3, 2005)

Paul said:
			
		

> Wow, seeing that truck makes me think of a certain song by Dennis Leary...... :wink:


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## ctenidae (May 4, 2005)

I did a wholly unscientific experiment driving on the highway last night. My car has a computer that calculates gas mileage (as do many). i always thought it was a cumulative, averag-over-a-long-time kind of thing. Apparently, it's not. It actually refigures it every 15 seconds or so, based on distance travelled and fuel used since the last time it updated. Pretty snazzy, I think. Anyway, I wanted to see the mpg differance at various speeds. I was surprised at how little difference there was. 55 mph gave me 34.8 mpg, steady over about 5 miles. 80 mph (the speed traffic was moving, even in the right lanes, on 93 last night) gave me 33.6 mg, again over about 5 miles. I really expected a bigger difference. The shocker came when I was accelerating onto the highway. From a 20 mph entrance (I hate slow minivans merging onto the highway), accelerating to 80 mph, fairly rapidly, mpg dropped to 19.7. Which leads me to think, for any particular vehicle, maximizing your mileage is not so much a factor of the speed you drive as the consistancy of your speed. Aside from being dangerous, it seems the fools who zoom by in the slow lane, then have to brake because they don't realize the car in front of them is going slower, then jump over a lane, and zoom ahead, only to brake again, are using the most gas. Particularly interesting because they never seem to actually get ahead of me travelling at a steady speed in a single lane.


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## David Metsky (May 4, 2005)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> They're close to getting the Smart Cars approved for US safety standards.


http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/19/043267.html
I'm not sure they'll ever be a big hit in the States, but it's good to have more options.  Smart cost MB $1Billion in losses last year, not sure it will survive.

 -dave-


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## riverc0il (May 4, 2005)

ctenidae: how long were you driving and did you perform your test using the same stretch of road for both variables to keep extraneous factors neutral?  hills at different points on the highway could have had an impact.  driving 200 miles to a ski area, you definitely see a far bigger difference in MPG between speeds that far apart.  i see a big differece just between 60-65 and 70-75...  nearly a quarter of a tank for a round tripper to cannon.

fast acceleration definitely eats the gas.  keeping my RPMs below 3k tends to be how i measure if i am eatting gas too quickly.  when the RPMs get over 3k, the gas starts going fast regardless of which gear the car is in, highway or city.


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## ctenidae (May 5, 2005)

Naw, *riverc0il*- there were no controls for variables in place. The stretch of 93 from Exit 40 to Boston is pretty level, though, and traffic was steady. I agree, over the long run, even 1 mpg makes a difference, but all I was going for was quick snapshots.
 I'm going to have to try it with cruise control, to avoid accidental lead foot. One day, I'll even test the window-down vs air conditioner difference, too, though I think in my entire driving life I've used the air conditioner about 10 times, and even then not for long- I like windows open more.

In other gas price news, this morning was the first time I saw a talking head on TV actually say that higher gas prices have effects across the entire economy, and the Fed's statement on Tuesday left out a line that had been there previously, saying that they hadn't seen energy prices have an effect on inflation yet. I guess now they have. That's not a good sign.


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## riverc0il (May 5, 2005)

air conditioner kills gas in my car.  pushing the A/C button, i can even hear my car putting out more energy.


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## ctenidae (May 6, 2005)

Interesting effect of gas prices- GM adn Ford bonds got reduced to Junk status by S&P yesterday, partly because of poor sales figures, driven in a drop in demand for SUV's caused by, you guessed it, persistently high gas prices. It's going to be tough for GM, what with their $292 billion (yes, with a B) in debt, and less than $45 billion (yes, another B) in cash. Ford's a little better off, with only around $190 billion in debt. Ouch.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2005)

As Tom Friedman said last week on NPR, it would be great if Toyota stepped in a bought GMC to straighten it out....it's too bad that an American Company can't do it, but they just are too big and lazy.  I hate to admit it   :flag:


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## ctenidae (May 6, 2005)

Heh. Toyota's doing their part to help, though- They're planning on raising their prices in order to boost GM and Ford's sales. That's so nice of them. Defensive, strategic, and cynical as hell, but nice of them.


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## thetrailboss (May 6, 2005)

Toyota's prices are rising?


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## ctenidae (May 6, 2005)

Maybe. Their chairman said so on 4/25, then the company said it wouldn't on 4/26. I think they will, but won't say so, and won't say why.


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