# Sugarbush is being sold to Alterra...



## mbedle (Nov 13, 2019)

Wow


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## sugarbushskier (Nov 13, 2019)

Just saw that.....Wow indeed!


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## WWF-VT (Nov 13, 2019)

Here's the letter from Win : 

https://vtskiandride.com/sugarbush-...n2FDsQsZlvyxvSOYkA7oq-5L6S2SrUzDm6WzFvOFAK_-Y


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2019)

*Another one bites the dust.*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIbCvfkO3E


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## machski (Nov 13, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Here's the letter from Win :
> 
> https://vtskiandride.com/sugarbush-...n2FDsQsZlvyxvSOYkA7oq-5L6S2SrUzDm6WzFvOFAK_-Y


Very open letter and given how Alterra runs their resorts, much of Sugarbush should stay just as it is.  The plus is a much stronger and broad financial backing, allowing Win to do the things he wants like increase water onto the hill for Snowmaking, etc.  Congrats Win!

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## Killingtime (Nov 13, 2019)

The past few years have been interesting with all the consolidations. I've been reading Chris Diamond's two books; Ski, Inc and Ski, Inc 2020 recently . He was the guy who ran Mt Snow and then Steamboat for many years. He pretty much predicted this coming but not at the pace it has been happening. The Epic and Ikon pass products have changed everything. Who's next? At some point I can see Boyne merging with Alterra. Jay will be interesting too. I wonder when the anti-trust stuff starts to kick in though.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2019)

machski said:


> Very open letter



I found it LOL amusing in parts.

_
We're selling Sugarbush because of Climate Change.  

Oh, and also because State of Vermont will kill any business with fire._


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## EPB (Nov 13, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I found it LOL amusing in parts.
> 
> _
> We're selling Sugarbush because of Climate Change.
> ...


Brilliant. How could you possibly blame a guy for selling his business when it's going to be vaporized by the sun monster? Better still, some PE firm will get stuck holding the bag! 

Joking aside, I'm sure the price was right. Always a good idea to consider selling in the midst of an arms race. Also sounds like he's sick of dealing with VT.

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## Jcb890 (Nov 13, 2019)

Killingtime said:


> The past few years have been interesting with all the consolidations. I've been reading Chris Diamond's two books; Ski, Inc and Ski, Inc 2020 recently . He was the guy who ran Mt Snow and then Steamboat for many years. He pretty much predicted this coming but not at the pace it has been happening. The Epic and Ikon pass products have changed everything. Who's next? At some point I can see Boyne merging with Alterra. Jay will be interesting too. I wonder when the anti-trust stuff starts to kick in though.


Just a guess, but probably not until you see the ideas of Boyne and Alterra merging or Vail taking over everything. There aren't any monopolies currently because there are multiple groups doing it.


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## EPB (Nov 13, 2019)

Jcb890 said:


> Just a guess, but probably not until you see the ideas of Boyne and Alterra merging or Vail taking over everything. There aren't any monopolies currently because there are multiple groups doing it.


I was too young to follow the ASC antitrust issues, but it seems that it was argued that competition in very localized areas was no longer possible (e.g. the white mountains). I wish I could think of where I read it, but from what I remember, Vail and Alterra  "own" a much smaller share of US skier visits than I world have thought.

Maybe the two mega companies own too much NH/VT market share to buy Jay Peak now, though? [emoji848]

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## Hawk (Nov 13, 2019)

So my friends were not so off the mark.  Actually I heard more thought better of saying anything.  I find it somewhat disappointing but I guess like Machski is saying, they are the better fit.  We will see.  

Now I have a new owner that I can badger with my snowmaking wants!  LOL


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## hovercraft (Nov 13, 2019)

It’s a great happening IMO.  Hard to compete as an independent these days.  New chair for heavens gate please, then grant Hawks wish for snowmaking.......  let the games begin........


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## drjeff (Nov 13, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I was too young to follow the ASC antitrust issues, but it seems that it was argued that competition in very localized areas was no longer possible (e.g. the white mountains). I wish I could think of where I read it, but from what I remember, Vail and Alterra  "own" a much smaller share of US skier visits than I world have thought.
> 
> Maybe the two mega companies own too much NH/VT market share to buy Jay Peak now, though? [emoji848]
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


Per numbers in the already mentioned in this thread book by Chris Diamond, _Ski Inc. 2020_ (which as an FYI is a very interesting read for anyone with some interest in the modern business of the ski industry and the rise of the mega passes) that Alterra and Vail resorts and their owned and/or partner properties are now accounting for around 50% of total ski visits annually.

I think the anti trust difference today vs in the ASC era has a bit to do with the changes in federal regulatory oversight as well as that Alterra and Vail Resorts as well as other players like Boyne in one sense offset each other more so than Intrawest at the time offset what ASC had

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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

hovercraft said:


> It’s a great happening IMO.  Hard to compete as an independent these days.  New chair for heavens gate please, then grant Hawks wish for snowmaking.......  let the games begin........



I don't really see a HG replacement as a priority considering all the work they put into it a few years ago. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd rather see them focus on Hawk's snowmaking upgrade first.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I don't really see a HG replacement as a priority considering all the work they put into it a few years ago. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd rather see them focus on Hawk's snowmaking upgrade first.




The new owners have easier access to capital.  I bet there's a new HG chair and significant snowmaking improvements, and two new lodges at mount ellen, and a new health club and hotel.


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## tumbler (Nov 13, 2019)

I’d like the lodge at the top of Gatehouse, gondola cabins on Slide Brook and terrain expansion at North. And snowmaking.


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## hovercraft (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I don't really see a HG replacement as a priority considering all the work they put into it a few years ago. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd rather see them focus on Hawk's snowmaking upgrade first.



I think they need both.  It’s really a bad lift and snowmaking is a big part of the game.  Especially after a rain event.   Need to rebound quickly....


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

hovercraft said:


> I think they need both.  It’s really a bad lift and snowmaking is a big part of the game.  Especially after a rain event.   Need to rebound quickly....



Curious what you think is so bad about HG? Reliability has not been an issue at all the past couple seasons. Capacity I wouldn't want to see increased as I don't think the trails at the summit could handle more traffic. It is on wind hold enough as is, so no way you'd want to go to a detachable and make it even worse in the wind.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Curious what you think is so bad about HG? Reliability has not been an issue at all the past couple seasons. Capacity I wouldn't want to see increased as I don't think the trails at the summit could handle more traffic. It is on wind hold enough as is, so no way you'd want to go to a detachable and make it even worse in the wind.




I think the lift was installed in the mid 80's and as much as I'd like it not to be the case, that was a long time ago.  So its pushing 40 years old.  It is slow.  The departure terminal is badly situated.  A new quad like the valley house is coming hopefully sooner rather than later.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2019)

tumbler said:


> I’d like the lodge at the top of Gatehouse, gondola cabins on Slide Brook and terrain expansion at North. And snowmaking.


Those old maps with the terrain above Inverness and down to Lower FIS looks great.  Would make North feel as though it was equal size as South almost.  ROI is the question of course

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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I think the lift was installed in the mid 80's and as much as I'd like it not to be the case, that was a long time ago.  So its pushing 40 years old.  It is slow.  The departure terminal is badly situated.  A new quad like the valley house is coming hopefully sooner rather than later.



Interesting comment about the departure terminal. I've never really thought about that.

As for lift age, can you really still consider a lift 40 years old if the majority of the electronics and mechanical components have been replaced in the past 5 years (when it was rebuilt by Skytrac)? I agree at some point it needs replacement (let's say in the 5-10 year plan), but I just don't see that being considered a priority over other needs within the next couple years. Hawk's snowmaking plan to me should be at the top of the list. Maybe also some lodge additions/improvements (i.e. a mid-mountain lodge at the top of GH).


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## crazy (Nov 13, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> I was too young to follow the ASC antitrust issues, but it seems that it was argued that competition in very localized areas was no longer possible (e.g. the white mountains). I wish I could think of where I read it, but from what I remember, Vail and Alterra  "own" a much smaller share of US skier visits than I world have thought.
> 
> Maybe the two mega companies own too much NH/VT market share to buy Jay Peak now, though? [emoji848]
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Perhaps there are antitrust concerns for Vail, but certainly not Alterra.

Alterra owns 2 resorts (pending the SB closing) in VT and 0 in NH.


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## crazy (Nov 13, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Those old maps with the terrain above Inverness and down to Lower FIS looks great.  Would make North feel as though it was equal size as South almost.  ROI is the question of course
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



That kind of terrain expansion would be dope, but given the lack of crowds at North, how could they justify that investment? I would guess that crowds would have to increase substantially at North for that to be considered. Being unlimited on the Ikon pass could help a bit, but I still don't know if that would generate enough additional skier visits at North.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 13, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Those old maps with the terrain above Inverness and down to Lower FIS looks great.  Would make North feel as though it was equal size as South almost.  ROI is the question of course
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



interested. got any pics of said old maps?

i always eye that area above inverness. obviously skiable stuff.

edit: this?


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## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2019)

So does Alterra still make a legitimate offer on Jay Peak now?


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## ss20 (Nov 13, 2019)

I have mixed feelings long-term for SB being bought by Alterra.  It's just crazy.  Sugarbush was the last major mountain in the East not owned by a multi-mountain company.  It's crazy how fast times changed compared to five...ten years ago.  *assuming Jay goes to a big company which I'd bet my house on.  

In the short-term...how many of my future children do I need to sell to Alterra to get an unlimited Vermont Sugarbush/Killington-Pico/Stratton pass next season???

Correction- Bretton Woods is still a major player who's independent.


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## ss20 (Nov 13, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> So does Alterra still make a legitimate offer on Jay Peak now?



How can they not?  Alterra and Vail are running out of major real estate to purchase.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2019)

Smuggs is still independent.  Waterville too.  I guess you could say Saddleback as well

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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> interested. got any pics of said old maps?
> 
> i always eye that area above inverness. obviously skiable stuff.
> 
> edit: this?


That's partially it, but the image I'm thinking of was a master plan document.  It had a lift and trail pod heading down to Lower FIS from Tumbler and then something similar to that trail map you posted with a lift and trails above Inverness.  Think the same graphic had other lifts and trails on Lincoln as well.  It's been posted on here before, but I'm not seeing it in a Google images search

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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> That's partially it, but the image I'm thinking of was a master plan document.  It had a lift and trail pod heading down to Lower FIS from Tumbler and then something similar to that trail map you posted with a lift and trails above Inverness.  Think the same graphic had other lifts and trails on Lincoln as well.  It's been posted on here before, but I'm not seeing it in a Google images search



This?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2019)

That's it.  Do you have the Lincoln one as well?

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## machski (Nov 13, 2019)

tumbler said:


> I’d like the lodge at the top of Gatehouse, gondola cabins on Slide Brook and terrain expansion at North. And snowmaking.


No way you ever get Gondola cabins on Slidebrook.  Remember that is what Les wanted in the first place and the locals shot that down as an eye sore.  You'd be hard pressed to hang cabins on the current line with the height clearance over the ground.  I think what you might see is it converted to heated bubble quad, with a chair barn on the Lincoln side.  

But the truth is, pay attention to Win's punch list (I remember reading one not too long ago).  IIRC it included lodge rebuilds/replacements, snowmaking water pump increases and I think Super Bravo to a six.  Later, I could maybe see Gatehouse also considered for a 6 and HG and Ellen Summit Quad replacements.  But I think this is the initial direction they take.  The slidebrook thing at the start of this, that's pie in the sky stuff.

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## djd66 (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> The new owners have easier access to capital.  I bet there's a new HG chair and significant snowmaking improvements, and two new lodges at mount ellen, and a new health club and hotel.



all of this stuff is well needed.  While they are at it, build a nice spa for my wife.


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## djd66 (Nov 13, 2019)

tumbler said:


> I’d like the lodge at the top of Gatehouse, gondola cabins on Slide Brook and terrain expansion at North. And snowmaking.



yes, gondola cabins on SB would be awesome.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Interesting comment about the departure terminal. I've never really thought about that.
> 
> As for lift age, can you really still consider a lift 40 years old if the majority of the electronics and mechanical components have been replaced in the past 5 years (when it was rebuilt by Skytrac)? I agree at some point it needs replacement (let's say in the 5-10 year plan), but I just don't see that being considered a priority over other needs within the next couple years. Hawk's snowmaking plan to me should be at the top of the list. Maybe also some lodge additions/improvements (i.e. a mid-mountain lodge at the top of GH).



I didn’t mean to imply I’d prioritize a new hg lift over snowmaking, only that there are issues with the current lift and, like you said, it’s going to need to be replaced anyway in the next 5-10 years.  Also, new lifts and lodges are shinier objects than bigger pipes and pumps.
as for the terminus, getting off the lift and then making a left turn up a hill to get to the traverse, is less than ideal.  It’s a struggle especially for the visiting “vacation” skiers.  It would probably be better if the lift ended up where the old gondola was, although that might have wind issues.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

djd66 said:


> all of this stuff is well needed.  While they are at it, build a nice spa for my wife.



totally.  The sharc is ancient.  No reason they couldn’t put a hotel and spa there.


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## thebigo (Nov 13, 2019)

Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.


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## TheArchitect (Nov 13, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.



Jay is one close to a major population center...Montreal. Alterra already has Tremblant.  I think Jay makes a ton of sense for Ikon.

As for SB, I hope they invest heavily in snowmaking first.  With climate change and the temp swings we've been experiencing they need to be able to recover quickly after a warm spell.  New lifts are great, and added terrain even better but none of that matters if the snow is lousy, or not there.


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I didn’t mean to imply I’d prioritize a new hg lift over snowmaking, only that there are issues with the current lift and, like you said, it’s going to need to be replaced anyway in the next 5-10 years.  Also, new lifts and lodges are shinier objects than bigger pipes and pumps.
> as for the terminus, getting off the lift and then making a left turn up a hill to get to the traverse, is less than ideal.  It’s a struggle especially for the visiting “vacation” skiers.  It would probably be better if the lift ended up where the old gondola was, although that might have wind issues.



Ahh...when you said "departure" I was thinking the lower terminus (i.e. when the lift first "takes off"). Yea, the top is a bit of a challenge with having to go uphill a bit, but wind is a major reason HG didn't terminate at the old gondola summit. I'll take the trade-off of a little extra exercise vs a lift that goes on wind hold more often.



thebigo said:


> Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.



Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.


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## mister moose (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.



There's just so much you can afford to do on 400,000 skier visits and a flat growth curve.


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Curious what you think is so bad about HG? Reliability has not been an issue at all the past couple seasons. Capacity I wouldn't want to see increased as I don't think the trails at the summit could handle more traffic. It is on wind hold enough as is, so no way you'd want to go to a detachable and make it even worse in the wind.


  Virtually no one here has a clue about SB-let them all prattle on and ski Kmart & Mount Slow


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition? I got to sugarbush last year and my thought was that the infrastructure was in great shape, I admittedly only skied south though. I would think alterra funds would be better spent on additional acquisitions, closer to population centers, if their goal is to sell more ikon passes in the east.



I don’t know what they are going to do, and it’s beyond me how the finances work.  But it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales.  If that’s the case, they need to have a stable of resorts in most areas to attract skiers to icon as opposed to epic.  And now sugarbush is their answer to vails Stowe.  Stowe’s capital investments have dwarfed those at sugarbush, so you would think, the Alterra people know they have to invest in some capital improvements.  At least I hope so.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Ahh...when you said "departure" I was thinking the lower terminus (i.e. when the lift first "takes off"). Yea, the top is a bit of a challenge with having to go uphill a bit, but wind is a major reason HG didn't terminate at the old gondola summit. I'll take the trade-off of a little extra exercise vs a lift that goes on wind hold more often.
> 
> Yea, there's a lot of people with very big (and unrealistic imo) dreams here. I don't see Alterra coming in and spending massive amounts of money. I suspect you continue to see incremental improvements of 1 or 2 things a year similar to what was done in the past except at possibly a slightly accelerated rate. The needed snowmaking upgrades alone that are on Win's plan would require significant capital investment. Alterra isn't going to make the mistake of trying to do too much too quickly.



what if their plan is to go public with the company?  Isn’t that exactly what vail did?


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

mister moose said:


> There's just so much you can afford to do on 400,000 skier visits and a flat growth curve.



but these guys are playing a whole different game, no?  They are growing a subscription revenue business.  $100/month per person for all the skiing at all their resorts. Consistent revenue not so dependent on weather.  And they’re growing their other revenue by attracting more visits to the resorts.  Investors seem to like vail.


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## WinS (Nov 13, 2019)

Hawk said:


> So my friends were not so off the mark.  Actually I heard more thought better of saying anything.  I find it somewhat disappointing but I guess like Machski is saying, they are the better fit.  We will see.
> 
> Now I have a new owner that I can badger with my snowmaking wants!  LOL




Sorry Hawk. You still have me


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## cdskier (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> I don’t know what they are going to do, and it’s beyond me how the finances work.  But it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales.  If that’s the case, they need to have a stable of resorts in most areas to attract skiers to icon as opposed to epic.  And now sugarbush is their answer to vails Stowe.  Stowe’s capital investments have dwarfed those at sugarbush, so you would think, the Alterra people know they have to invest in some capital improvements.  At least I hope so.



I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.

I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.


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## WinS (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.
> 
> I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.



You are right on!


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## HowieT2 (Nov 13, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I'm not exactly sure I follow you on the capital investments at Stowe dwarfing the ones at SB. I really only see 2 areas where Stowe outpaced SB in the recent past (and they are mostly pre-Vail) - snowmaking infrastructure upgrades and the whole Spruce Peak monstrosity. In terms of other core infrastructure Stowe has only replaced 2 lifts in the past 10 years. SB has replaced 3 in the last 5 years (and that doesn't include all the major overhauls of many of their other lifts). Average age of lifts at both resorts is nearly identical with Stowe having a couple lifts even older than SB's oldest. Both resorts will need to address some older lifts eventually (but I think Stowe will need to do so sooner than SB). I agree SB has catching up to do on the snow-making side and has stated that's a key goal. I suspect Alterra gives them the capital to get that part done sooner rather than later. In terms of competing with Stowe on the luxury Spruce Peak part, I just don't see that going over well in the valley or fitting with the SB vibe that they claim they want to preserve.
> 
> I really don't think Alterra wants to turn SB into Stowe. Are they competitors? Sure. But they're not going to try to offer the same things Stowe does. There's a lot of people that liked SB because it is SB and not other places. You would think Alterra recognizes that value and wants to capture (and keep) those existing loyalists and not necessarily alienate them in favor of replacing them with new people that want a Stowe 2.0 or something.



exactly.  The snowmaking at Stowe is significantly ahead of what sugarbush has, and that needs a major investment.  The lodges at mt Ellen r great and I,love them but they’re inadequate especially if you want to drive some traffic over there.  A new hotel doesn’t have to be a monstrosity like spruce peak, but there is demand for something moderate.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> *it appears to me that they are going to challenge vail for pass sales.*



Vail sells hundreds-of-thousands more EPIC passes than Alterra sells IKON passes, and that was before Vail added SKIS to the portfolio.


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## WinS (Nov 14, 2019)

Remember, this is only the second year of the Ikon Pass. Epic has been around for a lot longer.


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## Keelhauled (Nov 14, 2019)

thebigo said:


> Does alterra have a history of big investment after a new acquisition?


They built the new HSQ at Stratton last year, and Winter Park has gotten a new gondola and HS6 over the last two seasons, plus Steamboat is getting a complete gondola rebuild for this winter.  So they're not afraid to match or do better than Vail w/r/t capitol investment.


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## tumbler (Nov 14, 2019)

Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President. 

I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens.  Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.


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## cdskier (Nov 14, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.
> 
> I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens.  Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.



Yup...you hit the nail on the head with the primary concern. It is reassuring to know that Win is staying on though. I'd be much more worried if he wasn't going to still be here.


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## TheArchitect (Nov 14, 2019)

tumbler said:


> Win- congrats on the sale, it’s a business and you made a wise business decision. You have built quite a legacy in the ownership chain and by staying on you are ensuring that Sugarbush will continue in your vision. At least now your risk is gone and like you said you are an employee. Thank you for staying as President.
> 
> I think what everyone is concerned about is the potential of unlimited Ikon next year. I understand it will be a business decision but hopefully it can be balanced with appropriate infrastructure upgrades to handle to additional crowds if it happens.  Your loyal customers don’t want it turned into just another resort and I don’t think you do either.



Bingo


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## smac75 (Nov 14, 2019)

HowieT2 said:


> exactly.  The snowmaking at Stowe is significantly ahead of what sugarbush has, and that needs a major investment.  The lodges at mt Ellen r great and I,love them but they’re inadequate especially if you want to drive some traffic over there.  A new hotel doesn’t have to be a monstrosity like spruce peak, but there is demand for something moderate.



I really think they should spruce up the SB Inn a bit. The rooms need updating badly but the common areas are pretty much perfect the way they are - 100% Vermont charm.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 14, 2019)

I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.

First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!

Now to all of us AZ'ers, who tend to be a bit more skiing/riding obsessed than the average consumer. How many of us who have IKON's this year have the restricted vs the unrestricted? If one isn't a Sugarbush regular, how many on the restricted will upgrade to an unrestricted because of the change in ownership/IKON pass status? 

If that's not a sizable number, then the reality is that you probably won't see much of an effect on crowd volume, let alone say a 6 figure increase in annual visits next year


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## TheArchitect (Nov 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.
> 
> First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!
> 
> ...



I have the Base and I was thinking of what I would do if they go unlimited.  The reality is that it's a 3 1/2-4 hour drive for me each way and I don't know if I'll be able to get up to SB more than the 5 days I already have.  Plus, I like to hit multiple resorts each season.  If that wasn't the case then I'd upgrade the the full if SB went unlimited and suck it up when it came to the drive time.


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## machski (Nov 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.
> 
> First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!
> 
> ...


That is an answer we really cannot answer at this junction as we don't know how Alterra will treat SB on the Ikon.  Many think they will make both SB and Stratton Unlimited (Full) and Unlimited w/blackouts (Base).  If that is the case, not sure many will switch unless you had a base and a Sugarbush pass as well this season.  Now, if they keep Stratton as is next year and put SB on the Ikon in the same fashion (Unlimited Full but only 5 days w/blackout base), that would be another story as you would just gain 2 extra days any longer by going base to full at SB.  Then, the third option would be to keep SB as premium resort (a la DV or Aspen) and still only do 7 days no blackout full, 5 days w/blackout base.  Need to see how they play that I think first. 

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## JimG. (Nov 14, 2019)

Glad SB decided to do this and not Killington.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 14, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I think a couple of questions to consider in this mix.
> 
> First off, Congratulations to Win for the guidance that he has provided (and will continue to provide) Sugarbush over the last close to 2 decades!
> 
> ...




that would be my guess.  thinking the vast majority of icon holders dont ski more than 7 days regardless if it becomes unlimited.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2019)

WinS said:


> Remember, this is only the second year of the Ikon Pass. Epic has been around for a lot longer.



Yeah, EPIC is a more mature product and IKON is still aggressively ramping, I was just pointing out that at the moment EPIC sales are greatly in excess of IKON sales.  It will be interesting to see if Alterra makes its' numbers public again this year (I hope so).


----------



## machski (Nov 14, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Glad SB decided to do this and not Killington.


Two totally different animals, K and SB.  K could not just decide to do this, they are park of Powdr which itself is one of the conglomerates Win cited as part of his decision to end SB's independant streak.  I am beginning to think a Powdr/Boyne merger is the most likely next step in the merger games.  Those two combined would be a powerful force and make them almost as big as Vail and Alterra.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## JimG. (Nov 14, 2019)

machski said:


> Two totally different animals, K and SB.  K could not just decide to do this, they are park of Powdr which itself is one of the conglomerates Win cited as part of his decision to end SB's independant streak.  I am beginning to think a Powdr/Boyne merger is the most likely next step in the merger games.  Those two combined would be a powerful force and make them almost as big as Vail and Alterra.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Ya I'm aware of the differences. SB selling out scares me though. If they can why not K?

Thought about a Powdr/Boyne merger too. Not attractive to me either.

If anyone doesn't already know by now I am not a fan of the consolidation going on. And I fear that in 10 years we will all look back on these mergers and realize how they killed skiing as we know it today.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 14, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Ya I'm aware of the differences. SB selling out scares me though. If they can why not K?



Much easier for an individual owner/resort to decide to sell than it would be for a larger company to agree to sell off one of their major assets. Powdr would have to be in major financial trouble or get one hell of an offer to sell off K.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Ya I'm aware of the differences. SB selling out scares me though. If they can why not K?
> 
> Thought about a Powdr/Boyne merger too. Not attractive to me either.
> 
> If anyone doesn't already know by now I am not a fan of the consolidation going on. And I fear that in 10 years we will all look back on these mergers and realize how they killed skiing as we know it today.



I’d hate to be Bolton, Magic, Bromley or Burke right now.


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## machski (Nov 14, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> I’d hate to be Bolton, Magic, Bromley or Burke right now.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bromley part of a smaller conglomerate of Jimminy and Cranmore if not more?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## boston_e (Nov 14, 2019)

machski said:


> Two totally different animals, K and SB.  K could not just decide to do this, they are park of Powdr which itself is one of the conglomerates Win cited as part of his decision to end SB's independant streak.  I am beginning to think a Powdr/Boyne merger is the most likely next step in the merger games.  Those two combined would be a powerful force and make them almost as big as Vail and Alterra.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



If that happened, it would be interesting to see if Powdr/Boyne would step away from Ikon and do their own multi-resort pass (although to this point Powdr seems to have resisted doing do).

If they did, it would likely be the most attractive option for the New England based skier.  Loaf/River/K-Town/Pico/Loon would probably be considered by most to be a better New England combo than the Vail or Alterra offerings.


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## JimG. (Nov 14, 2019)

VTKilarney said:


> I’d hate to be Bolton, Magic, Bromley or Burke right now.



If this consolidation continues there will be a NELSAP bonanza in the future. The places you list will be gone, plus any of the unprofitable hills currently part of the evil empires that have formed.


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## Los (Nov 14, 2019)

JimG. said:


> If this consolidation continues there will be a NELSAP bonanza in the future. The places you list will be gone, plus any of the unprofitable hills currently part of the evil empires that have formed.



Yep. And when that inevitably happens, I assume it will also mean season pass prices skyrocket and skiing becomes affordable only for the wealthy (which it isn't now, as expensive as it is...).


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 14, 2019)

Can parts of this plan be dusted off?   
Get Trump to author an executive order overriding the env concerns...


----------



## Edd (Nov 14, 2019)

machski said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bromley part of a smaller conglomerate of Jimminy and Cranmore if not more?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I think that’s correct.


----------



## slatham (Nov 15, 2019)

JimG. said:


> If this consolidation continues there will be a NELSAP bonanza in the future. The places you list will be gone, plus any of the unprofitable hills currently part of the evil empires that have formed.



Well that depends on a lot of factors. For instance, do the Epic/Ikon resorts price themselves out of the day tripper market and they instead head to the smaller independents? Do educated consumers (like AZ’ers) decide the Epic/Ikon crowds are too much to bare? But there will be an acceleration of the trend to mega resorts offering everything to everyone on a cheap pass (but expensive day ticket)  vs. more bare bones operations focusing on skiing/riding.


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## slatham (Nov 15, 2019)

machski said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bromley part of a smaller conglomerate of Jimminy and Cranmore if not more?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yes but small is the operative word and conglomerate definitely doesn’t fit. First of all, Fairbanks Group is a local New England group that only operates those three areas. They started with Jiminy Peak (which I believe they no longer own, just operate), then took over operation of  Cranmore  (unsure of ownership) and  more recently (5-7 years) began operating Bromley (which they do not own). So nowhere near a Boyne or a Powdr much less Vail or Alterra.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 15, 2019)

DoublePlanker said:


> View attachment 25576
> Can parts of this plan be dusted off?
> Get Trump to author an executive order overriding the env concerns...



You better start running I think there are pitchforks and torches coming!


----------



## skiur (Nov 15, 2019)

People said the same exact thing when ASC was buying up the ski world.  They went belly up, sold everything off, and we started over.  Whats currently happening is no different.  Everyone is screaming that the sky is falling, but we have been through this before and it aint the end of the world.  At least this time there is a bit more competition as ASC was much bigger than any of their competition.


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## Hawk (Nov 15, 2019)

DoublePlanker said:


> View attachment 25576
> Can parts of this plan be dusted off?
> Get Trump to author an executive order overriding the env concerns...


I can understand the added terrain above inverness.  I would like to see that.  I have no interest in putting trails and lifts in slide brook. We already ski that.  Why ruin it for the people that actually enjoy less crowded areas.  No need for lifts there and no need to dumb it down for the masses.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I can understand the added terrain above inverness.  I would like to see that.  I have no interest in putting trails and lifts in slide brook. We already ski that.  Why ruin it for the people that actually enjoy less crowded areas.  No need for lifts there and no need to dumb it down for the masses.



I'd agree. And I think most people would agree with you. But I think we're safe on the Slide brook front no matter what some people want as I seem to recall some sort of agreement that prohibits any further development in there.


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## drjeff (Nov 15, 2019)

skiur said:


> People said the same exact thing when ASC was buying up the ski world.  They went belly up, sold everything off, and we started over.  Whats currently happening is no different.  Everyone is screaming that the sky is falling, but we have been through this before and it aint the end of the world.  At least this time there is a bit more competition as ASC was much bigger than any of their competition.



This is a bit of a different situation though.  What got ASC was the combo of massive over payment for the expansion "feeding frenzy" they went on, then right on top of that some massive real estate development expansions (A Grand Summit Timeshare for everyone!) and then the tanking of the real estate market.  The anticipated funds from the real estate sales never materialized, and ultimately dragged the company into fiscal oblivion, even though on the operations side, they were able to cover their expanses of day to day ski area operations.

Vail and Alterra, while they now do own plenty of real estate with their resort properties, they're really not developing anything appreciable in the 2nd home/condo/hotel scheme of things. They're focusing on selling lot, and lots of passes (which they certainly are these days) and then once they have the passholders at one of their resorts, then working on increasing their daily yield via food and beverage, lessons, staying at previously built, resort owned properties, etc. Vail and Alterra are functioning much more as a ski company that operates some real estate lodging options as opposed to ASC which quickly turned into a real estate development company that operates some ski resorts. A definite difference between the ASC scenario and this Vail Resorts/Alterra scenario currently


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2019)

JimG. said:


> If anyone doesn't already know by now* I am not a fan of the consolidation going on. And I fear that in 10 years we will all look back on these mergers and realize how they killed skiing as we know it today*.



I dont think it's the "skiing" that will be killed, what I do worry about is that EPIC & IKON will kill new skier/snowboarder recruitment; and that wont show up in the data in a way that can likely be realistically measured for probably a decade.  That's the bit I worry about.


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## abc (Nov 15, 2019)

> they killed skiing *as we know it today*


I'm not sure I like the "as we know it today" part. It seems already too expensive for new skiers. 

I remembered it didn't feel expensive when I learned (80's). I was a graduate student, living on part time jobs on campus. Can today's graduate students afford to go skiing the same?


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## skifree (Nov 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont think it's the "skiing" that will be killed, what I do worry about is that EPIC & IKON will kill new skier/snowboarder recruitment; and that wont show up in the data in a way that can likely be realistically measured for probably a decade.  That's the bit I worry about.



+1


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

abc said:


> I'm not sure I like the "as we know it today" part. It seems already too expensive for new skiers.
> 
> I remembered it didn't feel expensive when I learned (80's). I was a graduate student, living on part time jobs on campus. Can today's graduate students afford to go skiing the same?



I think the answer depends a lot on where they want to ski. I went to college in Rochester NY. We used to typically go to Bristol to ski (45 minutes away). Back then when we wanted to ski for cheap, we'd do the "Wegman's Family Night" where you could ski from 4PM until closing for relatively cheap. Looking at Bristol's site now, they still have that (Although they don't seem to require a Wegman's shopper's club card anymore). Now it is $89 for 3 people so less than $30 a person. That's pretty reasonable. I really don't think it was much cheaper when I was in college (nearly 20 years ago). I want to say maybe it was 3 for $75 back then as I don't remember paying less than $25 a person.

So I guess my point is deals can be found, but you're more likely to find them at the smaller "feeder" type mountains. If you're spoiled and want to just ski the major resorts, then it will be much more difficult to find those cheap deals (unless you get a college pass to 1 resort). I typically only did one major trip to VT a year back then, so I don't really have a point of reference for what it cost to try to ski the bigger places back then with day tickets.


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## skimagic (Nov 15, 2019)

slatham said:


> Yes but small is the operative word and conglomerate definitely doesn’t fit. First of all, Fairbanks Group is a local New England group that only operates those three areas. They started with Jiminy Peak (which I believe they no longer own, just operate), then took over operation of  Cranmore  (unsure of ownership) and  more recently (5-7 years) began operating Bromley (which they do not own). So nowhere near a Boyne or a Powdr much less Vail or Alterra.


 

Although these 3 are part of a mini conglomerate, the "Fairbanks Pass" is not competitive, it only offers 1 ticket at the other 2 non home resorts.  They do offer 15 bucks off a ticket at a bunch of other independents.

They need to change this model next season and offer a few more tickets at the very least


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I typically only did one major trip to VT a year back then, so *I don't really have a point of reference for what it cost to try to ski the bigger places back then with day tickets*.



Cost to ski those resorts increased at a rate in excess of inflation over the years even at non EPIC/IKON resorts.   

Of course, if we're talking EPIC/IKON resorts then the cost is absurdly higher, but that's a feature, not a bug.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Cost to ski those resorts increased at a rate in excess of inflation over the years even at non EPIC/IKON resorts.
> 
> Of course, if we're talking EPIC/IKON resorts then the cost is absurdly higher, but that's a feature, not a bug.



I'd argue that's a "feature, not a bug" even at the non-Epic/Ikon places. Simply put, the big resorts want you buying season passes (or some other form of advance commitment such as discount cards, quad packs, advance online ticket sales, etc).

Another thing never really discussed, how have lodging prices changed over that same time? For me VT was never a day trip option and always required lodging of some sort. So right off the bat even with cheaper tickets that made VT "expensive" to me. If lodging has not increased much (or even decreased thanks to it being easier to find deals with AirBNB and the Internet in general), then at least for the people outside of day-trip range for VT the % price increase has been mitigated somewhat. Not that this justifies the high day ticket prices of course. But then again, we tend to compare walk up window ticket rates over time when in reality there are still ways to pay substantially less than that even at the big resorts today. It would be interesting to see true numbers on what price people actually paid for day tickets accounting for typical deals over the years. I suspect years ago you had a much higher percentage of people willing to just pay the walk up rates while today you have a much higher percentage using some sort of pre-purchased deal (i.e. a quad pack at SB for example).


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2019)

Devil's advocate

Season passes to the major players in the East were more expensive 20 years ago even without inflation.  It was $1150 for an Okemo pass in 1999.   Stowe was $1290. 

Day tickets have obviously outpaced inflation, but how much of that is due to consolidation vs more snowmaking, grooming, high speed lifts, lodges/restaurants that require more staff etc. 

Day tickets aren't necessarily the best metric on the cost to bring new people into the sport.  I'd say learn to ski package pricing would be a better thing to look at.  I have a friend that started last year at 42. I couldn't believe how affordable it was for him to do so.  He got some crazy deal at Pat's Peak.  I want to say it was $500 and included ownership of new skis and boots, five Saturday lessons and then once those were done he was given a pass for the rest of the season.  He's now getting his kids into a program this winter.  Single father on a high school teachers salary.   I think as long as the ski areas maintain these type of programs consolidation won't matter too much.  Let's not forget that industry participation has been flat since the 80s, so it's not like the industry was doing that much of a better job growing participation pre-consolidation

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 15, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Devil's advocate
> 
> Season passes to the major players in the East were more expensive 20 years ago even without inflation.  It was $1150 for an Okemo pass in 1999.   Stowe was $1290.
> 
> ...



Those are good insights, you should take those over to Scottys thread


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Day tickets aren't necessarily the best metric on the cost to bring new people into the sport.  I'd say* learn to ski package pricing would be a better thing to look at.*



They should be, but they're not.  

Many people dont even know they exist.  

I cant tell you how many people would show up at the register to buy a lift ticket, skis rental, and a lesson, without knowing that much cheaper bundled packages exist.  Many more beginner people (inadvisably) just buy a lift ticket and forego lessons.  Especially the people who are "just trying" it to see if they like it.  It's all these people, and they are not a small number of total beginners, that I worry will never have that first day on the slopes due to the artificially high single-day lift ticket prices being demanded by Vail & Alterra.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> They should be, but they're not.
> 
> Many people dont even know they exist.
> 
> I cant tell you how many people would show up at the register to buy a lift ticket, skis rental, and a lesson, without knowing that much cheaper bundled packages exist.  Many more beginner people (inadvisably) just buy a lift ticket and forego lessons.  Especially the people who are "just trying" it to see if they like it.  It's all these people, and they are not a small number of total beginners, that I worry will never have that first day on the slopes due to the artificially high single-day lift ticket prices being demanded by Vail & Alterra.


You would think today more than ever it would be much easier for the resorts to broadcast these package discounts.  

Quite frankly, if someone shows up to pay rack rate, I don't have much sympathy.  A minimum amount of research is all that's needed 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 15, 2019)

^^
That's discrimination against stupid people though.

Kind of joking but kind of serious. New skiers are "stupid". They don't know shit compared to us about where to go and for what reasons, how to save, etc.

They get taken advantage of like customers at a shitty car dealership to be frank.

The savvy will always have an edge!


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I can understand the added terrain above inverness.  I would like to see that.  I have no interest in putting trails and lifts in slide brook. We already ski that.  Why ruin it for the people that actually enjoy less crowded areas.  No need for lifts there and no need to dumb it down for the masses.





bdfreetuna said:


> ^^
> That's discrimination against stupid people though.
> 
> Kind of joking but kind of serious. New skiers are "stupid". They don't know shit compared to us about where to go and for what reasons, how to save, etc.
> ...


Yeah, still no sympathy. lol

If I want to buy a product or service from an industry I know little about, at bare minimum I'm going to do some Google research or at least reach out to a friend or relative with experience.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## p_levert (Nov 15, 2019)

JimG. said:


> And I fear that in 10 years we will all look back on these mergers and realize how they killed skiing as we know it today.



Well I remember skiing in Colorado and Utah in the late 70s.  That experience has already been killed, with just a few exceptions.


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## 1dog (Nov 15, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> You would think today more than ever it would be much easier for the resorts to broadcast these package discounts.
> 
> Quite frankly, if someone shows up to pay rack rate, I don't have much sympathy.  A minimum amount of research is all that's needed
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Does Bush still have the never ever skied person purchase 2/3 or 4 lessons and get a season pass included? Was that way at least for kids under a certain age a while ago.

Everyones forgetting higher taxes everywhere - cuts into disposable income - many more choices in sports and couch sports- in the 80's few had $200 cable/internet packages and $100 mobile phone bills or $400/$500 car payments.

Gas is cheaper - way cheaper. Airbnb and VRBO types make lodging competitive if not cheaper. The public is fatter so less inclined to exercise.

VT is not business-friendly - less friendly now than 30 years ago.  NH is a little better. Maine? No clue.

Rents are far higher, mortgage rates less than half 80's but prices 200-400% higher DC-Boston ( San Diego- Seattle too for that matter)

Equipment much improved and cheaper only if you look hard for last year's stuff. Retail prices are out of sight.

Ski areas are trying to grab more business in the off-season with mt biking/ wedding business, conferences, and beer fests/concerts. 

Regulation and over-compensating for warming - it's .6 F degree warmer than 100 years ago - but the public is directed to believe its criminal to suggest there are two sides to the debate - are all adding to the cost.


Last example of the result of all of the above - and it's amazing to think its possibly true: 
https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-sa...area-california-where-to-go-cost-13614119.php

53%? In such a beautiful state? Stunning. (BTW-  gas is not cheaper there - paid $4.25 last summer out there)


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## mister moose (Nov 15, 2019)

I agree that high prices discourage beginners at resorts.  There are great alternatives at local hills.

Look at Blanford, a great local hill easily driveable from Hartford or Springfield, 3 chairs, 570 feet of vertical:

Lift, equipment, lesson for beginners:  $70
Adult weekends lift ticket:  $45
Weekday lift ticket:  $20
Evening lift ticket:  $25
Group adult lesson:  $40
Season Pass:  $259


This is not expensive compared to big VT resorts.  Plus you can eliminate hotels and restaurants and day trip it.


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## Killingtime (Nov 15, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> ^^
> That's discrimination against stupid people though.
> 
> Kind of joking but kind of serious. New skiers are "stupid". They don't know shit compared to us about where to go and for what reasons, how to save, etc.
> ...



The internet and social media helps a lot now to pass along info and deals. When I first started I thought the whole ski world consisted of Hunter, Windham, Belleayre, a few places in Vermont and the "West". You are right though, I paid walk up rates for a season or two until I started skiing more and discovered all the deals out there.


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## Orca (Nov 15, 2019)

Hopefully Alterra will realize that the numbers of skiers at Mt. Ellen are limited by the much too small and outdated base lodge that sullies the skiing experience there. (Ever try to eat lunch there on a Saturday? Nightmare.) With all due respect, I think Win had a blind spot in neglecting the physical plant at the base. He said he wanted to get more people to ski Ellen, but never did anything other than offer discounts, implicitly affirming it as an inferior product. People like nice things, and quite simply the Mt. Ellen base lodge isn't; it is claustrophobic and icky in that smelly old motel sort of way. But imagine this: a nice, airy, modern lodge with plenty of glass where people find sufficient and pleasant space to enjoy lunch or a rest. They might just prefer it to the Lincoln facilities.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Devil's advocate
> 
> Season passes to the major players in the East were more expensive 20 years ago even without inflation.  It was $1150 for an Okemo pass in 1999.   Stowe was $1290.



Yes, an excellent point. I've personally benefited from this change as well. It is absolutely one of the best (and most cost effective) times to be a season pass holder.



bdfreetuna said:


> Kind of joking but kind of serious. New skiers are "stupid". They don't know shit compared to us about where to go and for what reasons, how to save, etc.



Hmm, I don't know how much I agree with this. How many people on their own really jump into skiing with doing no research or not talking to anyone? I'd like to think most people either get introduced to the sport by parents, family or friends. In either case those people should be helping the new skiers know where to go and how to find the deals, etc.



1dog said:


> Does Bush still have the never ever skied person purchase 2/3 or 4 lessons and get a season pass included? Was that way at least for kids under a certain age a while ago.



Yes (at least this season), but you have to be OVER a certain age (13), not under as they don't want to under-cut their existing kids ski school seasonal programs.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 15, 2019)

Orca said:


> Hopefully Alterra will realize that the numbers of skiers at Mt. Ellen are limited by the much too small and outdated base lodge that sullies the skiing experience there. (Ever try to eat lunch there on a Saturday? Nightmare.) With all due respect, I think Win had a blind spot in neglecting the physical plant at the base. He said he wanted to get more people to ski Ellen, but never did anything other than offer discounts, implicitly affirming it as an inferior product. People like nice things, and quite simply the Mt. Ellen base lodge isn't; it is claustrophobic and icky in that smelly old motel sort of way. But imagine this: a nice, airy, modern lodge with plenty of glass where people find sufficient and pleasant space to enjoy lunch or a rest. They might just prefer it to the Lincoln facilities.



I'm fine with the lodge, I just avoid peak lunch times if it's busy. Rather keep it as a discount mountain with $40 Thursdays and cheaper tickets. Mount Ellen IMO should be a place like Bolton Valley & MRG where the amenities are just sufficient but the skiing is the focus.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'm fine with the lodge, I just avoid peak lunch times if it's busy. Rather keep it as a discount mountain with $40 Thursdays and cheaper tickets. Mount Ellen IMO should be a place like Bolton Valley & MRG where the amenities are just sufficient but the skiing is the focus.



Personally I agree with this. I suspect I'm not the only one either... (of course this could also partly be out of selfishness where I don't want to see it be more popular!)


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 15, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Hmm, I don't know how much I agree with this. How many people on their own really jump into skiing with doing no research or not talking to anyone? I'd like to think most people either get introduced to the sport by parents, family or friends. In either case those people should be helping the new skiers know where to go and how to find the deals, etc



I have special sympathies because I married Puerto Rican, and her some of her friends started skiing and snowboarding after I taught my wife. So you get the perspective of a real "outsider" to the entire culture and with no families ties, etc.

Funny thing is a lot of, immigrants we'll say, think skiing is the ultimate activity but many of them just think of it as a bucket list kind of thing, instead of actually taking that leap and participating.

Cost is one thing, but there is also a culture in skiing that is about sharing knowledge with an "in group". And people show up to the mountain not knowing a thing and carrying their skis wrong getting weird looks, it's probably a little intimidating at first.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> I have special sympathies because I married Puerto Rican, and her some of her friends started skiing and snowboarding after I taught my wife. So you get the perspective of a real "outsider" to the entire culture and with no families ties, etc.



If they were your wife's friends though and started after you got your wife into the sport, shouldn't you or your wife have been helping them know how to get deals? :smile:


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## mister moose (Nov 15, 2019)

bdfreetuna said:


> Mount Ellen IMO should be a place like Bolton Valley & MRG *where the amenities are just sufficient but the skiing is the focus.*



Hopefully a surviving niche.  Also Magic, Pico (sorta), Middlebury.


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## bdfreetuna (Nov 15, 2019)

cdskier said:


> If they were your wife's friends though and started after you got your wife into the sport, shouldn't you or your wife have been helping them know how to get deals? :smile:



The ones I liked I sure did and have been :lol:


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2019)

cdskier said:


> How many people on their own really jump into skiing with doing no research or not talking to anyone? I'd like to think most people either get introduced to the sport by parents, family or friends.



I cant give you an answer in percentage terms, but there really are plenty of adults & groups who show up at the hill with literally no experience.  Back in the sticker days, I voluntarily put plenty of lift tickets on "non-children" because I knew if I didn't I'd just be reprinting the tickets!

EDIT:  Then there's the scores of tickets I clipped off because I noticed they put the wicket around the jacket's main zipper.   The face-flapper special as I called it.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2019)

mister moose said:


> *Hopefully a surviving niche.  *Also Magic, Pico (sorta), Middlebury.



The Plattekill, Magic, MRG, Mont Sutton, and BV's of the world are my favorite places to ski.  I havent been to BV in years, I need to return.  I skied Sundance this year & loved it, same reason as all the aforementioned.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 15, 2019)

1dog said:


> Does Bush still have the never ever skied person purchase 2/3 or 4 lessons and get a season pass included? Was that way at least for kids under a certain age a while ago.



First Timer to Life Timer Program:  for ages 13+

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://www.sugarbush.com/plan/deals/first-timer-to-life-timer-program/[/FONT]


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## Edd (Nov 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant give you an answer in percentage terms, but there really are plenty of adults & groups who show up at the hill with literally no experience.  Back in the sticker days, I voluntarily put plenty of lift tickets on "non-children" because I knew if I didn't I'd just be reprinting the tickets!
> 
> EDIT:  Then there's the scores of tickets I clipped off because I noticed they put the wicket around the jacket's main zipper.   The face-flapper special as I called it.



So you’re basing this on your Stowe employee days some time ago (15-ish years?). I’d think the most cursory research would show the cheapest deal. 

The beginner skier experience looks so unpleasant with rental equipment, wasted time, and awkward fittings. Cheap and easy is the way to grow the sport. I just don’t know how that gets done.


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## KustyTheKlown (Nov 15, 2019)

that sugarbush first timer to life timer was amazing for my ex-girlfriend. she went from being someone who had never skied before, to being someone who goes on vacation to banff, long after we broke up. it was absurdly affordable, i want to say it was under $300 for a sequence of lessons with rentals that resulted in a free season pass after she completed the lesson sequence. 

agreed that mt ellen should be kept rustic forever.


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

Edd said:


> So you’re basing this on your Stowe employee days some time ago (15-ish years?). I’d think the most cursory research would show the cheapest deal.



I was thinking that too. Now information is available literally in the palm of your hand with everyone having smartphones. I'm sure BG is right that there are some completely clueless people that are too lazy to do any research at all, but I also suspect that number is lower today than it was in the past when he last worked at a resort.

I know I mentioned this at some point in the past in another thread a long time ago, but I'd be curious to know the breakdown of "how" people enter the sport. What percent is introduced by their parents and start at a young age? What percent are introduced by friends (that can teach them how to look for deals)? What percent jump into it completely on their own? I'd think the first scenario is the largest followed by the second and finally the third. I started at a later age (freshman in HS), but it was still my dad that took me skiing and got me hooked (he just got back into the sport at that point after taking a break for ~20 years or so).

We love to say "how will new people enter the sport with these prices", but honestly, has anyone noticed how insanely popular the ski school programs are today? If we can keep those kids in the sport as they age, that's a very good start for sustainability. (I'm not saying we should ignore trying to get others in the sport that aren't introduced by their parents, but I also question if the outlook is as bleak as some predict. And the programs for others are out there, we just need to market them and educate people about them)


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## WinS (Nov 15, 2019)

Hawk said:


> I can understand the added terrain above inverness.  I would like to see that.  I have no interest in putting trails and lifts in slide brook. We already ski that.  Why ruin it for the people that actually enjoy less crowded areas.  No need for lifts there and no need to dumb it down for the masses.



  Nothing can ever get done in Slidebrook. That was part of the permit restriction when Les put in the SB express.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 15, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I was thinking that too. Now information is available literally in the palm of your hand with everyone having smartphones. I'm sure BG is right that there are some completely clueless people that are too lazy to do any research at all, but I also suspect that number is lower today than it was in the past when he last worked at a resort.



How old do you think I am?   This was long after Al Gore invented the internet.  I never had to hitch my horse to a post or re-tie leather bindings when I worked at Stowe.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2019)

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=stowe+learn+to+ski+package

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## hub8 (Nov 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> How old do you think I am?   This was long after Al Gore invented the internet.  I never had to hitch my horse to a post or re-tie leather bindings when I worked at Stowe.


Your last sentence cracked me up [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## cdskier (Nov 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> How old do you think I am?   This was long after Al Gore invented the internet.  I never had to hitch my horse to a post or re-tie leather bindings when I worked at Stowe.



I suspected you're around my age honestly (mid to late 30s). A lot has changed in just the last 5-10 years though.


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## slatham (Nov 16, 2019)

skimagic said:


> Although these 3 are part of a mini conglomerate, the "Fairbanks Pass" is not competitive, it only offers 1 ticket at the other 2 non home resorts.  They do offer 15 bucks off a ticket at a bunch of other independents.
> 
> They need to change this model next season and offer a few more tickets at the very least



Agree the options to ski the other resorts are weak (though improving every year) but Bromley for instance is very much a locals and second homeowner/renter Mountian. I am not sure people would take advantage of skiing the other, relatively small areas. I for one drive past Jiminy on every trip and have never been tempted to ski it again. The bigger question is whether they get on one of the other passes.


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## Smellytele (Nov 16, 2019)

After the first year of skiing for these newbies how many return for the second year when the discounts go away?

Also how has the seasonal rentals but affected by VRBO? Have seasonal rental rates gone up? We used to do seasonal rentals in Jackson/North Conway back in the early 90's and now see week long rentals going for about 1/2 that. So 2 weeks of rentals bring in the same amount of what we used to pay for Nov 15-April 15.


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## WinS (Nov 17, 2019)

B&B and VRBO have definitely taken seasonal rentals off the market which makes it harder for both guests and employees to find housing in the Valley. It has, however, opened more beds to day skiers. So this is a mixed blessing. It is a reason why we are having to find or build employee housing. This years we have around 130 beds available for employees and some more through our Tenant for Turns program.


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## Hawk (Nov 17, 2019)

Win, is Friday going to be Sugarbush season pass holders only or both Sugarbush and Ikon passes?  I have a friend with me this weekend who wants ski Friday.

Steve


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## WWF-VT (Nov 17, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Win, is Friday going to be Sugarbush season pass holders only or both Sugarbush and Ikon passes?  I have a friend with me this weekend who wants ski Friday.
> 
> Steve



I hope and expect it's just for Sugarbush season pass holders


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## WinS (Nov 18, 2019)

Hawk said:


> Win, is Friday going to be Sugarbush season pass holders only or both Sugarbush and Ikon passes?  I have a friend with me this weekend who wants ski Friday.
> 
> Steve



Yes.  We will accept Ikon Passes on Friday.  We believe that with both Valley House and Gate House going we will have enough lift capacity and  terrain of  open to both Sugarbush and Ikon Passholders.  The forecast is looking a bit funky at this point, but hopefully we see snow on the mountain Friday am even if there is some rain in the Valley.


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