# Killington - Other ski areas in a death spiral besides Killington?



## Highway Star (Mar 20, 2012)

Are you aware of other ski areas that are in a financial or operational tail spin?

Revelstoke, BC:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...esort-Closing-Early-No-Announcement-Epic-Fail

Mt. Bachelor, OR:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34561

Any on others in the east that aren't looking so good...?


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## steamboat1 (Mar 20, 2012)

Okemo

http://www.epicski.com/t/111297/the-demise-of-okemo


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## Highway Star (Mar 20, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Okemo
> 
> http://www.epicski.com/t/111297/the-demise-of-okemo


 
:-o

Wow had no idea!!!


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## WWF-VT (Mar 20, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Okemo
> 
> http://www.epicski.com/t/111297/the-demise-of-okemo



The profile for "Mac" who posted this complaint about the snowmaking at Okemo lists Killington/Pico as his home mountain on his profile.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 20, 2012)

I didn't ski Okemo this year but noticed the same thing as Mac the last several years previous. They also had issues with ice last time I skied there which I didn't find at other areas at the same time. I'll admit I've never been a fan of Okemo.


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## Nick (Mar 20, 2012)

Bruce's response is valid I think. The thread title is pretty damn alarmist if you ask me.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 20, 2012)

Who is Bruce?


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## WWF-VT (Mar 20, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I didn't ski Okemo this year but noticed the same thing as Mac the last several years previous. They also had issues with ice last time I skied there which I didn't find at other areas at the same time. I'll admit I've never been a fan of Okemo.



Less than stellar snowmaking and grooming for a few visits to Okemo don't exactly equate to the mountain  "being in a death spiral like Killington".


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 20, 2012)

I skied Okemo at the begining of February and they were making snow, so that part of the "rumor" is bunk.

the conditions were the same at okemo as they were at killington the 2 days prior.  Groomed Granular/Frozen Granular except where they made snow. 

The place looked like it had a decent business and they've clearlly sunk alot of money into on mountain housing and the Jackson Gore Base area within the past several years.


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## Nick (Mar 20, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Who is Bruce?



The GM at okemo he was quoted in the last post in that thread


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## Bubbartzky (Mar 20, 2012)

While a lot of people, myself included, have a lot to discuss when it comes to Killington (some negative, some positive) it would be more than hyperbole to say that Killington is in a death spiral.  That's just an absurd concept.  Don't get me wrong - it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see Powdr and SP Land hit the road and Killington (all of it, both companies' holdings) sold to people who know and understand eastern skiing and eastern skiers but what Highway Star is suggesting is way beyond reality.


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## Highway Star (Mar 20, 2012)

Bubbartzky said:


> While a lot of people, myself included, have a lot to discuss when it comes to Killington (some negative, some positive) it would be more than hyperbole to say that Killington is in a death spiral. That's just an absurd concept. Don't get me wrong - it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see Powdr and SP Land hit the road and Killington (all of it, both companies' holdings) sold to people who know and understand eastern skiing and eastern skiers but what Highway Star is suggesting is way beyond reality.


 
So, what exactly do you call hitting a new low in skier vists more than 50% off their peak?  

A blip?  :roll:


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## skiersleft (Mar 20, 2012)

Bubbartzky said:


> While a lot of people, myself included, have a lot to discuss when it comes to Killington (some negative, some positive) it would be more than hyperbole to say that Killington is in a death spiral.  That's just an absurd concept.  Don't get me wrong - it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see Powdr and SP Land hit the road and Killington (all of it, both companies' holdings) sold to people who know and understand eastern skiing and eastern skiers but what Highway Star is suggesting is way beyond reality.



+1,200,000

Can someone please put HS in time out?


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## AdironRider (Mar 20, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> So, what exactly do you call hitting a new low in skier vists more than 50% off their peak?
> 
> A blip?  :roll:



You have yet to prove this statement.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Mar 20, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> So, what exactly do you call hitting a new low in skier vists more than 50% off their peak?
> 
> A blip?  :roll:



So you would like to see the return of 1.2 million people?  Also, there hasnt been 1.2 million skier visits in over a decade (who knows how inflated those were to begin with), thus doesn't this fall on ASC more then anything?  Since Powder took over they have lost what 200,000 visits?  I could be off, but I thought I heard they did about 850,000 in ASC's last year.  I would agree that Killington is in a downward spiral in regards to customer (season passholders mostly) satisfaction, but I would be curious to see if they have lost much in regards to profit.


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## Highway Star (Mar 20, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> You have yet to prove this statement.


*
PLEASE ALLOW ME TO REPEAT MYSELF, AGAIN.*

The town of Killington village econ report states a peak of 1.4 million (killington & pico), and uses a 750k figure for calculations going forward:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/assets/TownEconomicImpactStudy.pdf

Other news sources have referenced figures of around 700k.  This year will like be an all time low for them in skier visits, under 700k.


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## Highway Star (Mar 20, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> So you would like to see the return of 1.2 million people?  Also, there hasnt been 1.2 million skier visits in over a decade (who knows how inflated those were to begin with), thus doesn't this fall on ASC more then anything?  Since Powder took over they have lost what 200,000 visits?  I could be off, but I thought I heard they did about 850,000 in ASC's last year.  I would agree that Killington is in a downward spiral in regards to customer (season passholders mostly) satisfaction, but I would be curious to see if they have lost much in regards to profit.



Actually, that 1.2M figure was probably under inflated because they used an estimated figure of 20 skier visits average per full season pass, since there was no scanning in those days.  To you know anyone who bought a $1000 Killington pass in the 90's and didn't ski at least 20 days or far more.....?

If you go back and look at the pico to ASC sale docs, they clearly discuss the target skier visits between the two.

ASC quoted two figures for it's last year for Killington, scanned (795k) and estimated (mid 900k's). 

The crowds make little difference to me, but I must say there for the most part hasn't been a lift line at the superstar or snowdon quads since powdr took over.  I would rather take the crowds and go back to a 8 month season with massive snowmaking and proper operations.


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## MadPadraic (Mar 20, 2012)

Is Bachelor really hurting? These seemed like a decent target for a late April/early trip this year (without having actually checked their closing date).


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## skiur (Mar 21, 2012)

They best thing that has happened to K is the loss of all those skier visits.  Back in the day of the $400 asc passes the place was a zoo.  I dont like much of what powder has done, but the reduction of the crowds whether on purpose or not is great.


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## mondeo (Mar 21, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> So, what exactly do you call hitting a new low in skier vists more than 50% off their peak?
> 
> A blip? :roll:


Profitable?

It's not fair to compare this year to a peak year, with it being as warm as it has been and visits being down accordingly. Beyond that, they're charging more than twice as much as ASC was for a season pass, and have a much better cost structure. As much as the demise of BMMC pisses me off as much as anyone, and a few of their other questionable decisions, saying it's a death spiral is just dumb. I'd bet even on a down year like this they're more profitable than under ASC.


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2012)

mondeo said:


> Profitable?
> 
> It's not fair to compare this year to a peak year, with it being as warm as it has been and visits being down accordingly. Beyond that, they're charging more than twice as much as ASC was for a season pass, and have a much better cost structure. As much as the demise of BMMC pisses me off as much as anyone, and a few of their other questionable decisions, saying it's a death spiral is just dumb. I'd bet even on a down year like this they're more profitable than under ASC.



I think that the question that also needs to be asked to give context to this year and whatever it's numbers are is "Did ANY ski area in the Northeast have an 'up' year over last year?"

If whatever's K's numbers turn out to be has them down far less than the New England ski area average, then was it really that bad of a year?? Especially considering what mother nature brought?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2012)

Nick said:


> The GM at okemo he was quoted in the last post in that thread


 

Right, when we you read the whole thread and see his response you realize that the original post was pure speculation.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 21, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I think that the question that also needs to be asked to give context to this year and whatever it's numbers are is "Did ANY ski area in the Northeast have an 'up' year over last year?"



Only place I've read is having a good season is Jay Peak, but apparently that is due to the water park.  Then again, that was something posted on an internet forum, so it could be total BS.


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## Highway Star (Mar 21, 2012)

mondeo said:


> Profitable?
> 
> It's not fair to compare this year to a peak year, with it being as warm as it has been and visits being down accordingly. Beyond that, they're charging more than twice as much as ASC was for a season pass, and have a much better cost structure. As much as the demise of BMMC pisses me off as much as anyone, and a few of their other questionable decisions, saying it's a death spiral is just dumb. I'd bet even on a down year like this they're more profitable than under ASC.


 
I'm not comparing this year to one of the last years under ASC with the all41 passes.  I'm comparing it to their peak in the 90's.  _*Killington has been in a slow decline*_ (aka death spiral) *for 15 years*.


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## RENO (Mar 21, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *
> PLEASE ALLOW ME TO REPEAT MYSELF, AGAIN.*
> 
> The town of Killington village econ report states a peak of 1.4 million (killington & pico), and uses a 750k figure for calculations going forward:
> ...



Could you please repeat yourself again? I didn't get it the first 500 times you posted the same useless information...


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## oakapple (Mar 21, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm not comparing this year to one of the last years under ASC with the all41 passes.  I'm comparing it to their peak in the 90's.  _*Killington has been in a slow decline*_ (aka death spiral) *for 15 years*.



"Slow decline" and "death spiral" are not synonymous.

I do agree that skier visits have probably declined, and there is _no question at all_ that Killington has been shrinking both the mountain and the skier experience.

But it could be that this is actually a more profitable strategy; we don't have access to the information that would enable us to make that judgment.


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## AdironRider (Mar 21, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *
> PLEASE ALLOW ME TO REPEAT MYSELF, AGAIN.*
> 
> The town of Killington village econ report states a peak of 1.4 million (killington & pico), and uses a 750k figure for calculations going forward:
> ...




All of these numbers are assumptions at best, as outlined in the report. Thats not proof, thats cherry picking speculation that helps your argument, let along the fact that 750k is not more than 50% decline, but whatevs, doesnt matter to your 5 year old whining arguments. 

Death Spiral? You seriously are losing credibility with each post you make.


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2012)

oakapple said:


> "Slow decline" and "death spiral" are not synonymous.
> 
> I do agree that skier visits have probably declined, and there is _no question at all_ that Killington has been shrinking both the mountain and the skier experience.
> 
> But it could be that this is actually a more profitable strategy; we don't have access to the information that would enable us to make that judgment.



Next question then for this thread.  Does anyone other than HS really want K to go back to the zoo that it was in it's over a million skier visit days vs. how it skis/rides now with some more "elbow room" on the slopes??  And realistically given what a lift ticket costs today vs. where is was 15 years ago given the current costs and what the competition is offering, could K get back to over a million visits a year??

To fend off the "Old K advantage" line of response that i'm sure HS will chime in with. Is it even fathomable to think that K could once again build the type of advantage that it had in so many areas of the ski industry? Since with what it did to build that initial advantage, it basically forced so many different areas to dramatically "improve their game" to compete, to the point where now the overall level that most major ski areas operate at in terms of what they offer, lifts, snow surfaces, off hill ammenities is so much greater than it used to be.  Is there really that much extra "room" now for K to be able to once again set the bar so much higher than anyone else??

I almost look at it like golf and the Tiger Woods effect.  He was untouchable.  Things happened. He's still pretty damn good,  but in the mean time the competition got a bit tired of him always kicking their a$$es and as a result the competition worked very hard to improve to the point where they became much better than they used to be in an effort to compete


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 21, 2012)

I'll add another twist, if you can call it that.

When K was owned by 1 man, it was a lot easier to take risks or say lose money one year for "marketing" sakes? 

A Corporate structure of any kind completely will not allow that kind of thinking. Of course the Powder guys in Utah are looking to maximize their proffit that is what they are programmed to do.


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## Highway Star (Mar 21, 2012)

oakapple said:


> "Slow decline" and "death spiral" are not synonymous.
> 
> I do agree that skier visits have probably declined, and there is _no question at all_ that Killington has been shrinking both the mountain and the skier experience.
> 
> But it could be that this is actually a more profitable strategy; we don't have access to the information that would enable us to make that judgment.


 
How about a "slow motion tail spin"?  Lol.


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## AdironRider (Mar 21, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I'll add another twist, if you can call it that.
> 
> When K was owned by 1 man, it was a lot easier to take risks or say lose money one year for "marketing" sakes?
> 
> A Corporate structure of any kind completely will not allow that kind of thinking. Of course the Powder guys in Utah are looking to maximize their proffit that is what they are programmed to do.




Not to mention that (adjusted for inflation) Pres Smith was charging closer to 2k a pass in todays dollars and utilities were lets say just a tad cheaper those days (even when adjusted for inflation as well).


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## Highway Star (Mar 21, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> All of these numbers are assumptions at best, as outlined in the report. Thats not proof, thats cherry picking speculation that helps your argument, let along the fact that 750k is not more than 50% decline, but whatevs, doesnt matter to your 5 year old whining arguments.
> 
> Death Spiral? You seriously are losing credibility with each post you make.


 
Coming from someone with zero stake in this, I'll take that as a compliment.


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## AdironRider (Mar 21, 2012)

And Ill take that as 'foot in mouth' syndrome from you.


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## Highway Star (Mar 21, 2012)

Nahhh definitely not in a death spiral....



			
				Mister Moose said:
			
		

> From each (open) mountain's website, as of this morning:
> 
> Stowe..... 69
> Jay Peak.. 44
> ...


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## RENO (Mar 21, 2012)

Maybe this is the incentive now for you to finally move to Stowe like you've been saying for several years? :idea:


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## skiadikt (Mar 21, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Next question then for this thread.  Does anyone other than HS really want K to go back to the zoo that it was in it's over a million skier visit days vs. how it skis/rides now with some more "elbow room" on the slopes??  And realistically given what a lift ticket costs today vs. where is was 15 years ago given the current costs and what the competition is offering, could K get back to over a million visits a year??
> 
> To fend off the "Old K advantage" line of response that i'm sure HS will chime in with. Is it even fathomable to think that K could once again build the type of advantage that it had in so many areas of the ski industry? Since with what it did to build that initial advantage, it basically forced so many different areas to dramatically "improve their game" to compete, to the point where now the overall level that most major ski areas operate at in terms of what they offer, lifts, snow surfaces, off hill ammenities is so much greater than it used to be.  Is there really that much extra "room" now for K to be able to once again set the bar so much higher than anyone else??
> 
> I almost look at it like golf and the Tiger Woods effect.  He was untouchable.  Things happened. He's still pretty damn good,  but in the mean time the competition got a bit tired of him always kicking their a$$es and as a result the competition worked very hard to improve to the point where they became much better than they used to be in an effort to compete



nice post.

as a k regular, certainly wouldn't want to go back to the days of a million+ skier days. i do remember the 45 min wait on the k chair on weekends. at bear, we skied space walk from wildfire or ol to ride the fiddle chair as often as possible to avoid the waits for the bear chair. having said that, k was built to handle a million skiers and currently has the most lift over capacity in the east and could easily handle an additional 100-200k skiers.

back in the 80's/early 90's k was the "only" game. you didn't have the instant access to the kind of info you now have, but you knew k opened in october & closed sometimes in june. where were you gonna go for reliable snow mid-season. everything was a superlative - longest season, most snowmaking, most lifts, longest lift, steepest bump trail, longest trail etc. a marketer's dream. i remember early 80's thinking of okemo as a place that didn't have a lot of snowmaking & mostly pomas and sunday river was a place they shipped les otten off to, to take it off their hands. but then both areas started building infra-structure and catching up to the mighty beast and many of those advantages dissipated. plus they and areas like mt snow & stratton provided a superior intermediate ski experience so they all took chunks of the k pie.

will k regain it's competitive advantage? doubtful. unfortunately instead of trying to grow the business, current management is trying to max profits by cutting back on some of the very services (lifts, hrs of operation etc) that are needed to grow the business. instead they're continuing to push forward with some pie-in-the-sky village.


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## oakapple (Mar 21, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Next question then for this thread.  Does anyone other than HS really want K to go back to the zoo that it was in it's over a million skier visit days vs. how it skis/rides now with some more "elbow room" on the slopes??  And realistically given what a lift ticket costs today vs. where is was 15 years ago given the current costs and what the competition is offering, could K get back to over a million visits a year??


It probably could not.

The one thing the Killington skeptics are right about: they've shrunk the product. They've shrunk the operating hours, shrunk the season length, reduced snowmaking, taken terrain off the map, and removed lifts without replacing them. None of the competition (that I can think of), has done that.

So it's not merely a question of the competition upping their game. There's a legitimate argument that Killington has gotten worse. It's still pretty good, but it's not all it can be.



jimmywilson69 said:


> I'll add another twist, if you can call it that.
> 
> When K was owned by 1 man, it was a lot easier to take risks or say lose money one year for "marketing" sakes?
> 
> A Corporate structure of any kind completely will not allow that kind of thinking. Of course the Powder guys in Utah are looking to maximize their proffit that is what they are programmed to do.


You were doing extremely well, up to the last sentence. Maximizing profit is what businesses do. It is not a disease or a character flaw. But there many ways of going about this. Not every ski area owned by a corporation is following Killington's strategy.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 21, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Only place I've read is having a good season is Jay Peak, but apparently that is due to the water park.  Then again, that was something posted on an internet forum, so it could be total BS.



Jay Peak & Stowe have the advantage of catering to more Canadians than most other New England resorts. The Canadian economy is not in the crapper like the U.S. economy is therefore those areas feel less of an impact. I posted in another thread that last Thurs. night (a weekday) both the Spruce Peak Lodge & Jay Hotel were fully booked. I highly doubt any other area with on mountain lodging could claim that in the east.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 21, 2012)

oakapple said:


> You were doing extremely well, up to the last sentence. Maximizing profit is what businesses do. It is not a disease or a character flaw. But there many ways of going about this. Not every ski area owned by a corporation is following Killington's strategy.



I guess  what I was trying to say with that last sentence is that  Powdr's method of maximising proffits might not be the best suited to the "skier" or "property owner" in Killington. 

Is it the correct way?  well that is subjective depending on your angle.


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## oakapple (Mar 21, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I guess  what I was trying to say with that last sentence is that  Powdr's method of maximising proffits might not be the best suited to the "skier" or "property owner" in Killington.
> 
> Is it the correct way?


Yes. Phrased _that_ way, I would agree with you.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 21, 2012)

skiadikt said:


> i remember early 80's thinking of okemo as a place that didn't have a lot of snowmaking & mostly pomas and sunday river was a place they shipped les otten off to, to take it off their hands. but then both areas started building infra-structure and catching up to the mighty beast and many of those advantages dissipated. plus they and areas like mt snow & stratton provided a superior intermediate ski experience so they all took chunks of the k pie.



Those places are where a lot of former K skiers and riders went and they're not coming back


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## mister moose (Mar 21, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> When K was owned by 1 man, it was a lot easier to take risks or say lose money one year for "marketing" sakes?
> 
> A Corporate structure of any kind completely will not allow that kind of thinking. Of course the Powder guys in Utah are looking to maximize their proffit that is what they are programmed to do.



Don't think for a minute that Preston Smith

Owned 100% of Killington
Didn't have to be accountable to equity investors and a board of directors.
Wasn't interested in maximizing (long term) profit

This isn't an example of one outfit knowing how to make money and the other not.  It is much more about different operational philosophies and absentee ownership.


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## bigbob (Mar 21, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Jay Peak & Stowe have the advantage of catering to more Canadians than most other New England resorts. The Canadian economy is not in the crapper like the U.S. economy is therefore those areas feel less of an impact. I posted in another thread that last Thurs. night (a weekday) both the Spruce Peak Lodge & Jay Hotel were fully booked. I highly doubt any other area with on mountain lodging could claim that in the east.



Last week Killington had ALOT of candians at the mnt. Heard they came this far south since the northern areas were full,


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## 4aprice (Mar 21, 2012)

skiadikt said:


> back in the 80's/early 90's k was the "only" game. you didn't have the instant access to the kind of info you now have, but you knew k opened in october & closed sometimes in june. where were you gonna go for reliable snow mid-season. everything was a superlative - longest season, most snowmaking, most lifts, longest lift, steepest bump trail, longest trail etc. a marketer's dream. i remember early 80's thinking of okemo as a place that didn't have a lot of snowmaking & mostly pomas and sunday river was a place they shipped les otten off to, to take it off their hands. but then both areas started building infra-structure and catching up to the mighty beast and many of those advantages dissipated. plus they and areas like mt snow & stratton provided a superior intermediate ski experience so they all took chunks of the k pie.



This is perhaps the most interesting comment in the thread.  Is it because other areas caught up to K or is it because the entire skiing demographic has changed?  I ask this because Hunter Mt in NY has seemed to travel along a similar path.  Like Killington was in the 80's Hunter used to be quite the party place.  They used to open early/ close late.  That has all changed as it has at K.  Just seems to me that the demographic has changed to the point where its not worth it for these areas.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## ski_resort_observer (Mar 21, 2012)

> The profile for "Mac" who posted this complaint about the snowmaking at Okemo lists Killington/Pico as his home mountain on his profile.



Reminds me when awhile back the ASC kmart marketing dept put up a shadow website, something like whyokemosucks.com bashing Okemo. It didn't take long for the world to know who put it up and find themselves with major egg on the face. "Death Spiral"?.......good one.


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## Highway Star (Mar 22, 2012)

Looks like Sunday river has us beat this year....


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## SkiFanE (Mar 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Looks like Sunday river has us beat this year....



I don't think this is a competition.  Why they still have more coverage than others is debatable and I don't know how others blew snow.  All I know is SR did not stop snowmaking if the weather allowed it.  Looking back now, they must have strategically blew snow in places to keep the connectors open and covered all levels of trails.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2012)

And we have another Killington thread.


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## x10003q (Mar 22, 2012)

4aprice said:


> This is perhaps the most interesting comment in the thread.  Is it because other areas caught up to K or is it because the entire skiing demographic has changed?  I ask this because Hunter Mt in NY has seemed to travel along a similar path.  Like Killington was in the 80's Hunter used to be quite the party place.  They used to open early/ close late.  That has all changed as it has at K.  Just seems to me that the demographic has changed to the point where its not worth it for these areas.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ


I agree with Alex.

Demographics. This is an important part of the decline in skier visits. The huge bulge of single baby boomers that was jamming at Killington (monster skiing and partying) got married, had kids and no longer needed monster skiing and partying and are skiing elsewhere. As mentioned Hunter also somewhat fits this path. Okemo seems to have caught this shift which helped the amazing tranformation at Okemo. On a smaller scale Windham has also benefited.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Looks like Sunday river has US beat this year....



Doesn't sound like somebody leaving anytime soon.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 22, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> All I know is SR did not stop snowmaking if the weather allowed it.



Word is they will still make snow now if it gets cold enough.Hey all we need now is a 50 degree drop in temperature.


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## 4aprice (Mar 22, 2012)

x10003q said:


> I agree with Alex.
> 
> Demographics. This is an important part of the decline in skier visits. The huge bulge of single baby boomers that was jamming at Killington (monster skiing and partying) got married, had kids and no longer needed monster skiing and partying and are skiing elsewhere. As mentioned Hunter also somewhat fits this path. Okemo seems to have caught this shift which helped the amazing tranformation at Okemo. On a smaller scale Windham has also benefited.



Spent alot of time at both Killington and Hunter back in those days.  You can see how I spent (or misspent) my youth.  Fond memories of both but don't know if we will ever see the sport like that again.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Gilligan (Mar 22, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> And we have another Killington thread.



The moderators here fan the flames rather than moderate. Why don't you stop allowing HighwayStar to start threads? That might help.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> The moderators here fan the flames rather than moderate. Why don't you stop allowing HighwayStar to start threads? That might help.



I respectfully disagree.  You do not know what goes on behind the scenes and that several threads have been merged and moderated on this topic.  

And I'm sure that we will hear someone claiming that we overmoderate.  

If you have genuine concerns please PM us in the future.


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## x10003q (Mar 22, 2012)

4aprice said:


> Spent alot of time at both Killington and Hunter back in those days.  You can see how I spent (or misspent) my youth.  Fond memories of both but don't know if we will ever see the sport like that again.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Me too. Once the kids came along there were different requirements.


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## drjeff (Mar 22, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Me too. Once the kids came along there were different requirements.



Anyone else notice that most of the folks complaining about K either are young enough that they haven't had kids yet or never had kids??

The whole kid thing as cliche as it sounds REALLY does change one's perspective on things


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## 180 (Mar 22, 2012)

x10003q said:


> Me too. Once the kids came along there were different requirements.



Let me say that Hunter is very kid friendly.  There are hundreds of kids running around the lodge all the time.


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## x10003q (Mar 22, 2012)

180 said:


> Let me say that Hunter is very kid friendly.  There are hundreds of kids running around the lodge all the time.



Hunter is kid friendly once your kids can handle trails besides Belt. Riding the low slow quads can be brutal.

I ended up mostly skiing at Gore (vs Killington). It is easier to get to, there is zero crowding, and it used to be way cheaper. Until recently all the trails ended at one base area.


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## Gilligan (Mar 22, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> I respectfully disagree.  You do not know what goes on behind the scenes and that several threads have been merged and moderated on this topic.
> 
> And I'm sure that we will hear someone claiming that we overmoderate.
> 
> If you have genuine concerns please PM us in the future.



No thank you, this is something your whole forum should read.

While it is true that I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, I have noticed many of HighwayStar's threads getting merged. That only confuses the issue and makes things worse. In my opinion, eliminating his threads and posts would bring the Killington debate back to a normal level. i.e., not much different than some other mountains in the East. How you manage to keep Killington as a sponsor while letting HighwayStar continue his escalating attacks is beyond me.

It is as though you enjoy having him around just so he can continue to give all Killington skiers a bad reputation.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> No thank you, this is something your whole forum should read.
> 
> While it is true that I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, I have noticed many of HighwayStar's threads getting merged. That only confuses the issue and makes things worse. In my opinion, eliminating his threads and posts would bring the Killington debate back to a normal level. i.e., not much different than some other mountains in the East. How you manage to keep Killington as a sponsor while letting HighwayStar continue his escalating attacks is beyond me.
> 
> It is as though you enjoy having him around just so he can continue to give all Killington skiers a bad reputation.



*......seriously????*


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## Gilligan (Mar 22, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> *......seriously????*



HighwayStar =  Fail!!!


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## AdironRider (Mar 22, 2012)

Im pretty against his anything Killington does is bullshit without ASC prices and Pres Smith quality stance, but I dont think we should start censoring him. 

Forums suck when its one big circle jerk.


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## Nick (Mar 22, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> No thank you, this is something your whole forum should read.
> 
> While it is true that I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, I have noticed many of HighwayStar's threads getting merged. That only confuses the issue and makes things worse. In my opinion, eliminating his threads and posts would bring the Killington debate back to a normal level. i.e., not much different than some other mountains in the East. How you manage to keep Killington as a sponsor while letting HighwayStar continue his escalating attacks is beyond me.
> 
> It is as though you enjoy having him around just so he can continue to give all Killington skiers a bad reputation.



Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Personally, I really enjoy skiing Killington, as do most on the board. Some are more vocal than others when it comes to complaining. 

The intent of moderation is to keep things easier to consume. So if there are 10x threads about Killington, it makes sense to merge them if the topics are similar. I've made dozens of posts myself that I didn't see an earlier thread on and had to merge. 

But deleting a post based on a differing opinion? That's not right. Also, I don't see how keeping him around gives K skiers a bad rep ... everyone is their own person, in real life and on the boards, and making a sweeping judgement about AZ based on a few poster's opinions isn't accurate. 

That's just my .02.


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## Highway Star (Mar 22, 2012)

Wow.  I actually agree with AdironRider and deadheadskier.







wait for it........

































*OMG IT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!!!!!1111!1!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Highway Star (Mar 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Personally, I really enjoy skiing Killington, as do most on the board. Some are more vocal than others when it comes to complaining.
> 
> The intent of moderation is to keep things easier to consume. So if there are 10x threads about Killington, it makes sense to merge them if the topics are similar. I've made dozens of posts myself that I didn't see an earlier thread on and had to merge.
> 
> ...


 
Can I challenge him to a ski-off???


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## UVSHTSTRM (Mar 22, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> No thank you, this is something your whole forum should read.
> 
> While it is true that I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, I have noticed many of HighwayStar's threads getting merged. That only confuses the issue and makes things worse. In my opinion, eliminating his threads and posts would bring the Killington debate back to a normal level. i.e., not much different than some other mountains in the East. How you manage to keep Killington as a sponsor while letting HighwayStar continue his escalating attacks is beyond me.
> 
> It is as though you enjoy having him around just so he can continue to give all Killington skiers a bad reputation.



It's pretty simple, don't read if you don't like....not a hard concept.  I admit, I disagree with quite a bit of what HS says, but other times I find his posts either funny or dead on!

I think you should go back to the island!

Skipper of the SS Minnow Out!


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## Gilligan (Mar 22, 2012)

Well, if nothing else, at least I accomplished something I would have previously thought impossible. Getting a little love for HighwayStar. Amazing, but okay, I hear you.

My point is not that we need to completely silence a voice here. My point is that HS is overshadowing most of the other voices with regards to Killington. By allowing him to start so many negative threads and then compound it with so many negative posts, well, it seems like HS is censoring the rest of us. Or at least drowning us out.

I do not like seeing my favorite mountain, or the people that ski there, repeatedly insulted. That is why I finally joined the forum instead of just lurking. I just think that the _moderators_ could try a little harder to _moderate_ the HS/K issue. Currently it has really gotten out of hand.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> I do not like seeing my favorite mountain, or the people that ski there, repeatedly insulted. That is why I finally joined the forum instead of just lurking. I just think that the _moderators_ could try a little harder to _moderate_ the HS/K issue. Currently it has really gotten out of hand.



Fair enough.  But you are also free to post your own comments about how great Killington is and that is fine.  

Again, if you have any concerns please Email or PM the mods and indicate what *forum rules you feel that are being broken if any.*  You'll also see that we ask folks to bring concerns regarding moderation to us rather than commenting on the boards.


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## Nick (Mar 22, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Well, if nothing else, at least I accomplished something I would have previously thought impossible. Getting a little love for HighwayStar. Amazing, but okay, I hear you.
> 
> My point is not that we need to completely silence a voice here. My point is that HS is overshadowing most of the other voices with regards to Killington. By allowing him to start so many negative threads and then compound it with so many negative posts, well, it seems like HS is censoring the rest of us. Or at least drowning us out.
> 
> I do not like seeing my favorite mountain, or the people that ski there, repeatedly insulted. That is why I finally joined the forum instead of just lurking. I just think that the _moderators_ could try a little harder to _moderate_ the HS/K issue. Currently it has really gotten out of hand.



Sure, that's why we moderate and keep it in one thread. So you don't click on "Skiing Forum" and see 5 out of 15 threads about Killington doing something HS doesn't approve of :lol:


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## Nick (Mar 22, 2012)

BTW Gilligan - welcome to the boards and glad to have you! Start a love thread haha


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## 4aprice (Mar 22, 2012)

180 said:


> Let me say that Hunter is very kid friendly.  There are hundreds of kids running around the lodge all the time.



I'm glad to hear Hunter is kid friendly.  Its a great place and I haven't gotten there enough lately.  Killington in my opinion is pretty kid friendly too.  But I will tell you when I was haunting those two places back in the 80's, kids were the last thing on my mind.  There was a scene at both of those mountains that doesn't seem to exist any more.  Not saying thats a bad thing as has been pointed out marriage, kids and other things have changed. I just have fond memories of those days.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## gmcunni (Mar 24, 2012)




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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2012)

gmcunni said:


>


 
When was that taken?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2012)

Picture is from today's facebook update


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## gmcunni (Mar 24, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Picture is from today's facebook update



as much fun as it is to hate on K that is a sexy looking pic from today


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## skiadikt (Mar 24, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> as much fun as it is to hate on K that is a sexy looking pic from today



we skied last thurs-sun. best bumps at k in years. they did little to no grooming. trails got skied in nicely.


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## andyzee (Mar 24, 2012)

Agreed, sweet bumps at K.


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## Highway Star (Mar 24, 2012)

Killington has a solid 48 hour snowmaking window coming up, starting sunday night.


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## AdironRider (Mar 24, 2012)

gmcunni said:


>



Are these the massive crowds HS seems to think will be there just by staying open later?


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## Trekchick (Mar 24, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Well, if nothing else, at least I accomplished something I would have previously thought impossible. Getting a little love for HighwayStar. Amazing, but okay, I hear you.
> 
> My point is not that we need to completely silence a voice here. My point is that HS is overshadowing most of the other voices with regards to Killington. By allowing him to start so many negative threads and then compound it with so many negative posts, well, it seems like HS is censoring the rest of us. Or at least drowning us out.
> 
> I do not like seeing my favorite mountain, or the people that ski there, repeatedly insulted. That is why I finally joined the forum instead of just lurking. I just think that the _moderators_ could try a little harder to _moderate_ the HS/K issue. Currently it has really gotten out of hand.


Moderating a forum is a thankless task. 
Its really nice that someone who's only been around a few weeks has all this insight to "fix" the site.  
:beer:


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 24, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Are these the massive crowds HS seems to think will be there just by staying open later?



That picture must have been taken in the morning before Superstar softened enough for them to open it. Skylark, next to it, was _very_ crowded while waiting for Superstar to open.

Now that all the NY areas are closed, why not give Killington a try?


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 25, 2012)

Trekchick said:


> Moderating a forum is a thankless task.
> Its really nice that someone who's only been around a few weeks has all this insight to "fix" the site.
> :beer:



Is it better to let the girl from Tahoe or the guy from Utah run the show in a _Northeast_ forum?

New or not, that guy has a point.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Is it better to let the girl from Tahoe or the guy from Utah run the show in a _Northeast_ forum?
> 
> New or not, that guy has a point.



If you want to rehash the whole Highwaystar / Killington issue Gilligan brings up, feel free to take the conversation private with either Nick or any of the moderators in *private*.  I've told you this before, but if you have a problem with a particular post, report it and we'll look into it.  

As for Trekchick, she has skied the east plenty and has been a valuable member of this community for 5 plus years.  I also believe she either is or has been a moderator on epicski.  She gets that you can't please everyone with how a message board is moderated.

As for the "guy from Utah:, he moved out west just this year.  He grew up in VT, has had passes at several areas between VT, NH and ME and is tremendously passionate about the ski business in the east.  The fact he and his wife relocated to Utah for professional reasons is irrelevant regarding his ability to still be an effective moderator on this site.


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## andyzee (Mar 25, 2012)

For the most part, I don't even read HS posts, simple solution.


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## Geoff (Mar 25, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Anyone else notice that most of the folks complaining about K either are young enough that they haven't had kids yet or never had kids??
> 
> The whole kid thing as cliche as it sounds REALLY does change one's perspective on things



That's because unless you are rolling in money, parents with children typically don't ski Killington.   It has, in the POWDR era, the least family-friendly pricing in the east.   When they first showed up, they jacked up prices to outrageous levels for all kid programs.   They've backed off some but they're still the highest in the state.   It doesn't have a family-friendly layout.   It is really shy on intermediate terrain.   There is minimal to zero enforcement for reckless skiing/snowboarding.   There are very few family-oriented apres ski activities.   It's the land of 1000 cocktail lounges who cater to a totally different market.


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## marcski (Mar 25, 2012)

I think the Skipper's little buddy and Highway Star, need to have a ski off.  Whoever wins gets the AZ whiner award.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> If you want to rehash the whole Highwaystar / Killington issue Gilligan brings up, feel free to take the conversation private with either Nick or any of the moderators in *private*.  I've told you this before, but if you have a problem with a particular post, report it and we'll look into it.
> 
> As for Trekchick, she has skied the east plenty and has been a valuable member of this community for 5 plus years.  I also believe she either is or has been a moderator on epicski.  She gets that you can't please everyone with how a message board is moderated.
> 
> As for the "guy from Utah:, he moved out west just this year.  He grew up in VT, has had passes at several areas between VT, NH and ME and is tremendously passionate about the ski business in the east.  The fact he and his wife relocated to Utah for professional reasons is irrelevant regarding his ability to still be an effective moderator on this site.


She took a cheap shot at him so I responded in kind. Am I not supposed to do that? Do you really think I should have reported her post instead?


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## andyzee (Mar 25, 2012)

marcski said:


> I think the Skipper's little buddy and Highway Star, need to have a ski off.  Whoever wins gets the AZ whiner award.


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## marcski (Mar 25, 2012)

Long live GSS!


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## andyzee (Mar 25, 2012)

Killington sux, nothing but a bunch of wankers. The trails are laid out like crap, from year to year don't even know how many trails they have. Nothing more then a mecca for those wild snowboarders with their pants wrapped around their ankles as they try to use skiers as targets. Should just shut that mess down.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 25, 2012)

andyzee said:


> Killington sux, nothing but a bunch of wankers. The trails are laid out like crap, from year to year don't even know how many trails they have. Nothing more then a mecca for those wild snowboarders with their pants wrapped around their ankles as they try to use skiers as targets. Should just shut that mess down.



Could not agree more. And the trails are freakin' empty anyway. No one would miss the place.

Which one is the sarcasm emoticon again?


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## legalskier (Mar 25, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Well, if nothing else, at least I accomplished something I would have previously thought impossible. Getting a little love for HighwayStar. Amazing, but okay, I hear you.
> 
> My point is not that we need to completely silence a voice here. My point is that HS is overshadowing most of the other voices with regards to Killington. By allowing him to start so many negative threads and then compound it with so many negative posts, well, it seems like HS is censoring the rest of us. Or at least drowning us out.
> 
> I do not like seeing my favorite mountain, or the people that ski there, repeatedly insulted. That is why I finally joined the forum instead of just lurking. I just think that the _moderators_ could try a little harder to _moderate_ the HS/K issue. Currently it has really gotten out of hand.



You don't understand the nefarious logic HS is utilizing- he thinks that by bashing K on internet forums he can somehow shame them into making the improvements he seeks. He bashes them but never seems to go anywhere else. It may be manipulative and even a bit odd, but his reverse psychology shows how much he cares.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> She took a cheap shot at him so I responded in kind. Am I not supposed to do that? Do you really think I should have reported her post instead?



I didn't take her comments as a cheap shot.  She was simply stating that the member was new and it's kind of bad form to come in and start gun blazing and publicly chastise Nick and the moderators on how we run the forum. It was also a suggestion on her part for the member to recognize that forum moderation is rarely agreed upon by all members.  We do the best we can and quite honestly, the site has been as "peaceful" lately as it has ever been.  This despite this season being the most frustrating weather wise that any skier or rider can ever remember, which is kind of surprising as skiers and riders openly vent their frustrations loudly.  

I wasn't suggesting for you to report her post, though you could have if you had a problem with it.  I was more making a general statement that if you have a problem with a member or comment on the site, report the post, send a private message to one of us and we'll look into it.


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## Highway Star (Mar 25, 2012)

legalskier said:


> You don't understand the nefarious logic HS is utilizing- he thinks that by bashing K on internet forums he can somehow shame them into making the improvements he seeks. He bashes them but never seems to go anywhere else. It may be manipulative and even a bit odd, but his reverse psychology shows how much he cares.



I'm just calling them out on every poor decision they make .


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## legalskier (Mar 25, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm just calling them out on every poor decision they make .



Oh sorry, didn't realize I was giving you too much credit.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 25, 2012)

Free lunch to all season pass holders yesterday was a very nice gesture on their part. I just wish I would've known about it ahead of time since I was there but elected to drive home yesterday instead. After a few days of warm weather & glorious sunshine the grey skies & cooler temps yesterday made me decide to leave. That plus rain forecasted for today. If I would have known I probably would've stayed or at least skied since my mid-week pass was being honored yesterday also. Another thing I didn't know until I got home. Even though I didn't take advantage of the offering it's nice to know they did something positive for their pass holders.


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## Highway Star (Mar 25, 2012)

Yes, the lunch and raffle was nice.  They seemed to do good business at the ubars.


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## mister moose (Mar 25, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Free lunch to all season pass holders yesterday was a very nice gesture on their part. I just wish I would've known about it ahead of time since I was there but elected to drive home yesterday instead. After a few days of warm weather & glorious sunshine the grey skies & cooler temps yesterday made me decide to leave. That plus rain forecasted for today. If I would have known I probably would've stayed or at least skied since my mid-week pass was being honored yesterday also. Another thing I didn't know until I got home. Even though I didn't take advantage of the offering it's nice to know they did something positive for their pass holders.



Perfect illustration of how last minute and under conveyed this event was.

I'm glad they did it, but next year have adequate quanties (When I went through at 1pm the drinks were down to 1 choice and the dessert was all gone... no dessert is a cardinal moose sin) and think about how to best handle the volume.  Add some tables out in the snow.  Keep the line moving.  Put it in the drift and on the website next year more than a week in advance.  I skied instead of hanging around for the raffle, but I heard there was a lot of items and a lot of winners.  I heard nothing but good things about the raffle.

So thanks for lunch and Joey.  Next year make more dessert, and blow more snow all year long and all mountain wide to keep up with your competition.  Lots of customers had to go elsewhere this spring, and that can't be a good thing.  This Monday would be good practice.....


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## andyzee (Mar 25, 2012)

mister moose said:


> , and blow more snow all year long and all mountain wide to keep up with your competition.  Lots of customers had to go elsewhere this spring, and that can't be a good thing.  This Monday would be good practice.....



For now conditions look favorable to blow snow throughout the week at night. Jay and Sunday River have stated they will make snow, Killington has an opportunity to do the same. They surprised us with the early opening, let's see what they do now. I for one am not rushing to buy my pass for next year.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2012)

Killington could come out looking really good in all of this.  They have stated multiple times that they will stay open through April, weather permitting.

Well, if the weather permits them to make snow, they do it and they make it through the month, that's really sticking to their promises beyond what most customers would expect.


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## andyzee (Mar 25, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Killington could come out looking really good in all of this.  They have stated multiple times that they will stay open through April, weather permitting.
> 
> Well, if the weather permits them to make snow, they do it and they make it through the month, that's really sticking to their promises beyond what most customers would expect.




Yep.


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## andyzee (Mar 25, 2012)

For you guys with Facebook  (just don't admit it to potential employers): https://www.facebook.com/pages/Keep-Killington-Open/164020750322652


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## RENO (Mar 25, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Perfect illustration of how last minute and under conveyed this event was.
> 
> I'm glad they did it, but next year have adequate quanties (When I went through at 1pm the drinks were down to 1 choice and the dessert was all gone... no dessert is a cardinal moose sin) and think about how to best handle the volume.  Add some tables out in the snow.  Keep the line moving.  Put it in the drift and on the website next year more than a week in advance.  I skied instead of hanging around for the raffle, but I heard there was a lot of items and a lot of winners.  I heard nothing but good things about the raffle.
> 
> So thanks for lunch and Joey.  Next year make more dessert, and blow more snow all year long and all mountain wide to keep up with your competition.  Lots of customers had to go elsewhere this spring, and that can't be a good thing.  This Monday would be good practice.....



Probably weren't planning to have it yesterday, but with the horrible weather and dwindling terrain they rushed it. I'm guessing they probably were shooting for Pond skimming weekend?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Is it better to let the girl from Tahoe or the guy from Utah run the show in a _Northeast_ forum?
> 
> New or not, that guy has a point.


 
DHS said it nicely (thanks).  Both the girl from Tahoe and the guy who is now in Utah were originally from the NE. I'm a Vermonter who just moved to Utah. And yes I have skied many times at Killington.


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## Gilligan (Mar 26, 2012)

Trekchick said:


> Moderating a forum is a thankless task.
> Its really nice that someone who's only been around a few weeks has all this insight to "fix" the site.
> :beer:



Been around a lot more than a few weeks. That date is just when I decided to start posting here.

Took a quick look at the member list. Sorted it by post count. Turns out that this being my 21st post puts me ahead of about 80% of the people registered for this forum. Yeah, it looks like 4 out of 5 people that sign up here quit before they make more than 20 posts. Why? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because of all the crap new people are put through when they try to join in the conversation here. I wish more people were as welcoming as Nick.

As a response to HighwayStar's challenge, I think I will just direct him to this link. I feel the same way about your boasts as these other guys:
http://www.killingtonzone.com/forum...t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Been around a lot more than a few weeks. That date is just when I decided to start posting here.
> 
> Took a quick look at the member list. Sorted it by post count. Turns out that this being my 21st post puts me ahead of about 80% of the people registered for this forum. Yeah, it looks like 4 out of 5 people that sign up here quit before they make more than 20 posts. Why? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because of all the crap new people are put through when they try to join in the conversation here. I wish more people were as welcoming as Nick.
> 
> ...


 
Seriously? Did you just discover online ski message boards like last month?  That is a serious question.

Or are you some sort of k-troll?


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## Nick (Mar 26, 2012)

C'mon kids, let's all get along :lol:

.... this should be good prep for when I'm a dad in a few short months haha


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## ScottySkis (Mar 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Been around a lot more than a few weeks. That date is just when I decided to start posting here.
> 
> Took a quick look at the member list. Sorted it by post count. Turns out that this being my 21st post puts me ahead of about 80% of the people registered for this forum. Yeah, it looks like 4 out of 5 people that sign up here quit before they make more than 20 posts. Why? Oh, I don't know. Maybe because of all the crap new people are put through when they try to join in the conversation here. I wish more people were as welcoming as Nick.
> 
> ...



I been here 1 year and I think that is the opposite of what I seen, so many nice people on here with knowledge much more then me.


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## gmcunni (Mar 26, 2012)

Nick said:


> .... this should be good prep for when I'm a dad in a few short months haha



more like the teenage years


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2012)

So let's get back on topic, which was HS's claim that Killington is not doing well this season.  Any word if they are blowing snow?


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## Highway Star (Mar 26, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> So let's get back on topic, which was HS's claim that Killington is not doing well this season. Any word if they are blowing snow?


 
Nope.


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## Geoff (Mar 26, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> So let's get back on topic, which was HS's claim that Killington is not doing well this season.  Any word if they are blowing snow?



I haven't seen any data yet that lead me to believe that Killington didn't do well this season.  The traffic counter on the Access Road run by the Vermont Dept of Transportation is only down 3% for Nov/Dec/Jan.   The state hasn't put February up yet.

The Access Road retail businesses are all bitching about a lousy year but it appears that Killington was still selling a lot of day tickets.

If you assume that Killington has simply given up on the metro-Boston market and doesn't care that Boyne is making snow at Loon, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf, pulling the plug might make the most sense.   It's not like the tri-state people have any alternative.   New York State is already done for the year.   Anything south of Killington is done.  Sugarbush has shrunk down to nothing but Steins.   Stowe and Jay Peak aren't much of a threat since they're so much farther north.   New Yorkers aren't going to drive to Sunday River every weekend.

I guess this is what happens when a billionaire like Ian Cumming buys a string of ski areas for his son so he can "do something" with his life.   It would be awfully nice if the owner actually cared about how the business does.   Instead, we get some bean counter sitting in Park City appointed by Ian Cumming to limit his son's damage calling the shots.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2012)

Geoff said:


> I haven't seen any data yet that lead me to believe that Killington didn't do well this season.  The traffic counter on the Access Road run by the Vermont Dept of Transportation is only down 3% for Nov/Dec/Jan.   The state hasn't put February up yet.
> 
> The Access Road retail businesses are all bitching about a lousy year but it appears that Killington was still selling a lot of day tickets.
> 
> ...



Wow.  Only a 3% decline is really small.  That is interesting.


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## Highway Star (Mar 27, 2012)

Nick asked me to post a link to this thread - it has good history on why Killington is in a death spiral.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=18298


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