# How is Belleayre operating minus



## catskillman (Dec 7, 2010)

all those employees????????


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## deadheadskier (Dec 7, 2010)

more profitably?


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

No offense to those being laid off - but if they don't take seasonal - those job will be scooped up by others in the valley..


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## catskills (Dec 8, 2010)

dmc said:


> No offense to those being laid off - but if they don't take seasonal - those job will be scooped up by others in the valley..


Yeah that's what this country needs is more seasonal jobs that is impossible to feed yourself and provide a roof to live under with no health benefits.   :sad:  

Whats the difference between a pizza and a seasonal Belleayre employee.  A pizza will feed a family of four.  

DMC the sad thing is your probably correct.    That doesn't mean its a good thing to do.  

When will Bob Cratchit get a weekly salary which would help him become a self-sufficient member of society and afford medical care to save his son Tiny Tim's life?  Thanks to Gov Patterson, not this year.


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

catskills said:


> Yeah that's what this country needs is more seasonal jobs that is impossible to feed yourself and provide a roof to live under with no health benefits.   :sad:
> 
> Whats the difference between a pizza and a seasonal Belleayre employee.  A pizza will feed a family of four.
> 
> ...



Will they be offered COBRA benefits?
Do state employees get unemployment?

I thought originally you guys said they would get benefits for seasonal?  And I also read they would still get like 45 weeks of employment?


There's just too much varying information coming from that valley...  I don't know what to believe...  Everyones pushing feelings but no facts...   Can't get behind this as a person thats been laid off and taken pay cuts without really knowing what the deal is..


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## o3jeff (Dec 8, 2010)

Welcome to the real world! Having been laid off before myself I know it sucks, I have no unions protecting my job and don't want or need them knowing that I come into work everyday, do the best I can, company makes a profit, I keep my job. Times are tough everywhere. We're on a skeleton crew here since we cut a few people the weren't carrying their weight here which makes my job a lot tougher, but I'm not complaining.


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

Thats another thing... There are 2 unions at Belleayre..  WTF are they doing?  I haven't heard boo from the unions in any of this..


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## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2010)

catskills said:


> Yeah that's what this country needs is more seasonal jobs that is impossible to feed yourself and provide a roof to live under with no health benefits.   :sad:



I left working in skitowns because I wanted more than a seasonal job and health benefits.  No one is forcing those folks to work in that capacity.


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## millerm277 (Dec 8, 2010)

catskills said:


> Yeah that's what this country needs is more seasonal jobs that is impossible to feed yourself and provide a roof to live under with no health benefits.   :sad:



If you don't want a seasonal job, you don't work in a seasonal industry. I don't think amusement park workers are year round with benefits either. If there are no jobs but seasonal industry in your area, you move if you don't like it, or find a way into one of the extremely few high-level/skill positions that aren't seasonal.

The ski industry on it's own is the very definition of a seasonal business, it can only operate part of the year. Off the top of my head, the only place with summer operations even capable of employing the number of people they employ in the winter is probably Camelback with their huge waterpark.


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

*Blizzard of free state ski lift tickets buries two private Catskills centers*
By BRIAN NEARING Staff Writer
Published: 12:00 a.m., Wednesday, December 8, 2010

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blizzard-of-free-state-ski-lift-tickets-buries-867330.php



> According to Belleayre records, Belleayre gave away nearly 16,000 free tickets last year, out of about 169,000 skier visits, and posted a $1 million operating loss. The year before, Belleayre gave away about 16,700 free tickets out of 154,700 skier visits and posted a $76,000 operating loss.
> 
> The state Department of Environmental Conservation, which has operated Belleayre for 40 years, said the free tickets were about 7 percent of the total -- a figure that would still be about triple what a private ski mountain might do. It was not immediately clear why the figures differed.


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## snafu (Dec 8, 2010)

dmc said:


> *Blizzard of free state ski lift tickets buries two private Catskills centers*
> By BRIAN NEARING Staff Writer
> Published: 12:00 a.m., Wednesday, December 8, 2010
> 
> ...



Didn't read the article but this quote basically says it all - it was a money loser and would be out of business if it was not a state run facility with what public unions think is a bottomless pit full of taxpayer cash. Hopefully now they will at least break even.
_


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## mondeo (Dec 8, 2010)

catskills said:


> Yeah that's what this country needs is more seasonal jobs that is impossible to feed yourself and provide a roof to live under with no health benefits. :sad:
> 
> Whats the difference between a pizza and a seasonal Belleayre employee. A pizza will feed a family of four.
> 
> ...


 Boo freaking hoo. Are you saying I should be able to make a living popping air bubble sheets just because that's what I want to do? If they aren't adding any value, they shouldn't be employed.

Why do you want state residents to spend an additinal, say, $2 million in taxes just so some people can sit around all summer? Wouldn't that $2 million be better spent paying those same people to do something productive? Or paying other people who would be otherwise unemployed to do something productive? It's like you're pretending the money to pay these people just comes out of thin air and the increase in taxes needed to cover the wages has no impact on anything else.


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## threecy (Dec 8, 2010)

dmc said:


> *Blizzard of free state ski lift tickets buries two private Catskills centers*
> By BRIAN NEARING Staff Writer
> Published: 12:00 a.m., Wednesday, December 8, 2010
> 
> http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blizzard-of-free-state-ski-lift-tickets-buries-867330.php



Amazing, but not surprising.  Thank you for sharing.  It'd be interesting to see the press release this data in regard to government operated ski areas in New England (Cannon/Gunstock).


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## deadheadskier (Dec 8, 2010)

If Cannon employed 55 FT staff and was losing a million a year, I might switch my stance

Gunstock is country owned and operated.  I don't have a dog in that race


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## neil (Dec 8, 2010)

I wonder how many of these FT staff had extra jobs during the summer when there was no work for them.


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## gmcunni (Dec 8, 2010)

where can i score some free tix to Belleayre?


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## drjeff (Dec 8, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> where can i score some free tix to Belleayre?



Charlie Rangel?


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## threecy (Dec 8, 2010)

neil said:


> I wonder how many of these FT staff had extra jobs during the summer when there was no work for them.



On which side of the table?


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## Rambo (Dec 8, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> where can i score some free tix to Belleayre?



New York State Fair - DEC building usually has complimentary passes.


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## zinger3000 (Dec 8, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> where can i score some free tix to Belleayre?



I often ski free on my birthday at Belleayre (just show them your driver's license on your birthday, and it's free!)  If your birthday is not during the ski season, they assign a different month to you that they are open (for example, if your birthday is in May, you ski free on that date in December.)

http://www.belleayre.com/company/calendar.htm
scroll down a bit, look for the blue box on the right.

Not sure what percentage of the free tickets this covers


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## oakapple (Dec 8, 2010)

snafu said:


> Didn't read the article but this quote basically says it all - it was a money loser and would be out of business if it was not a state run facility with what public unions think is a bottomless pit full of taxpayer cash. Hopefully now they will at least break even.


If it was not a state-run facility, it would probably have received more investment and timely upgrades, and would be better marketed. I wouldn't say, based on two recession years, that it would be out of business if the state didn't own it.


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## gmcunni (Dec 8, 2010)

Rambo said:


> New York State Fair - DEC building usually has complimentary passes.





zinger3000 said:


> http://www.belleayre.com/company/calendar.htm
> scroll down a bit, look for the blue box on the right.



Thanks!


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## threecy (Dec 8, 2010)

oakapple said:


> *If it was not a state-run facility, it would probably have received more investment and timely upgrades*, and would be better marketed.



Do you realize that nearly half of the new lifts installed in New York, 1999-2009, were at state owned ski areas?

Bellayre alone has had 3 brand new quads installed during that time period.


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## mondeo (Dec 8, 2010)

oakapple said:


> If it was not a state-run facility, it would probably have received more investment and timely upgrades, and would be better marketed. I wouldn't say, based on two recession years, that it would be out of business if the state didn't own it.


Calling BS on this one. What do you think pays for the investments? The expectation of ROI. With Bell, there is no ROI. Managed as is, there would be even less investment, because the current owners aren't making any money to put in on their own and no financial institution would loan them money with that business plan.


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## x10003q (Dec 8, 2010)

threecy said:


> Do you realize that nearly half of the new lifts installed in New York, 1999-2009, were at state owned ski areas?



Link?


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## oakapple (Dec 8, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Calling BS on this one. What do you think pays for the investments? The expectation of ROI. With Bell, there is no ROI. Managed as is, there would be even less investment, because the current owners aren't making any money to put in on their own and no financial institution would loan them money with that business plan.


What I am saying is that if Belleayre were owned by private enterprise, what you described as “that business plan” wouldn’t be the one presented to financial institutions. It would be more aggressive, as Hunter and Windham have been. What you see at Belleayre is obviously a business plan that only a government-run ski area could have come up with.

I have no idea if Belleayre has been a long-term money-loser; the data presented upthread (two recession years) probably under-state its long-term ROI. The ski industry in the area is obviously viable, given that Hunter, Windham, and Plattekill, are all still in business despite not being owned by the government. If Belleayre were competently run as a private business, why would it be any different?


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

oakapple said:


> If Belleayre were competently run as a private business, why would it be any different?



Well for one thing the we NY'rs wouldn't have to pay for it...

I think they should give breaks to in state people and charge regular fair ski resort prices to out of state people..


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

snafu said:


> Didn't read the article but this quote basically says it all - it was a money loser and would be out of business if it was not a state run facility with what public unions think is a bottomless pit full of taxpayer cash. Hopefully now they will at least break even.
> _



And that loss is without having to pay employees, insurance and taxes...

:roll:


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## millerm277 (Dec 8, 2010)

dmc said:


> And that loss is without having to pay employees, insurance and taxes...
> 
> :roll:



Seriously? (on the first two)


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## dmc (Dec 8, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> Seriously? (on the first two)



yeah - state pays for liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..

And the employees are funded by the state..  thus the layoffs.

And they also don't pay property tax,  sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc...


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## catskills (Dec 8, 2010)

I am not sure what the problem is here.  I got a few questions:


On weekends does Windham really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and rider or are they pretty much maxed out?
On weekends does Hunter really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and riders or are they pretty much maxed out?
When Hunter installed a new high speed 6 pack chairlift, didn't they intentionally reduce the number of chairs to keep the new chair lift capacity the same as the old HSQ because the mountain can not handle more skiers and riders on the mountain?
Doesn't both Hunter and Windham make many millions of dollars selling real-estate for ski in/out property close to the mountain?
Isn't the real-estate market around Belleayre pretty much a dead market?
Don't the Belleayre skiers and riders, many of them that come here from outside of NY state, pay a lot of taxes in sales tax and hotel taxes? 
Doesn't the  hotels and restaurants that benefit from Belleayre skiers and riders hire employees that pay NY state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and a lot of other NY state taxes? 
Doesn't the hotels and restaurants that benefit from Belleayre skiers and riders pay NY state property taxes. 
Tell me again why Belleayre giving away 16,000 free lift tickets is such a  bad thing for the tax payers in NY state and Hunter/Windham's bottom line?


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## Rambo (Dec 8, 2010)

dmc said:


> yeah - state pays for liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..
> 
> And the employees are funded by the state..  thus the layoffs.
> 
> *And they also don't pay property tax,  sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc.*..



Beleive it or not but I think New York State pays School Taxes to all local school districts on the value of State owned land in the Catskill and Adirondack parks which land is located within these local School Districts. I read that somewhere once.


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## curlyfuzzie (Dec 8, 2010)

dmc said:


> yeah - state pays for *liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..*
> 
> And the employees are funded by the state..  thus the layoffs.
> 
> And they also don't pay property tax,  sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc...



Well, any employer has to pay for liability insurance and workman's comp, and DEC employees pay a hefty portion of their health insurance premiums, it is not 100% state funded. As has been noted, Belleayre has no on-site lodging, and the surrounding area doesn't offer much, either. What mom-and-pop motels are left date back to the '50's with very little updating, and not much offering in the apres ski scene, either. For me, Belleayre is strictly a day trip. OTOH, I have taken advantage of ski-and-stay packages at Windham. Haven't skied Hunter in decades, have been considering going back this year. What puzzles me about Belleayre is why it's being run by DEC, which is being decimated by state cuts, while Gore and Whiteface have the luxury of being part of ORDA,  one of those wonderful little "Authorities" that escape being included as part of the state budget? Then again, I guess the real question is, why are New York Taxpayers being saddled with the cost of running three ski areas, anyway?


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## millerm277 (Dec 8, 2010)

@catskills, the problem is that they're losing more than $5.50 per skier visit last year, and assuming DMC is correct, probably a lot more than that. In addition, they were paying a ridiculous number of employees in a ridiculous way, which if they were making money....whatever I suppose, still a waste. When you're losing taxpayer money, not acceptable.

Giving away large amounts of freebies when you're losing money is a pretty terrible strategy unless there's something special you're trying to highlight, which there isn't.

The tax revenue argument and employment argument is terrible, it assumes that those people won't go skiing in the Catskills if Belleayre wasn't the place they were skiing. I'm sure Hunter would love the extra visitors so they can have the $$$$ to put in their full master plan for expansion and upgrade the West Side snowmaking.


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## mondeo (Dec 9, 2010)

Won't somebody please think of the children?!

How does a mid-size ski mountain in the East have 58 year-round employees? I've looked, but can't find an actual list of the positions being cut. I've gotta think they're essentially paying some people to do nothing in the summer. It would be better to just pay them to stay home, that way they don't waste money on gas just to sit around. The defense of these jobs is mind boggling.

I grew up in near Buffalo, which has a lower population now than in 1900. Erie County has been steadily losing population since 1960. Why? Because people moved to the South. Why? Largely because taxes in the South are so much lower that businesses moved there. The one company (Bell Helicopter) that could have kept me in NY was on the vanguard of the flight, leaving Buffalo in the 1960s. And why are the taxes so high? Because of crap like this.

Cuts need to be made. The government can't employ everyone. It's been tried. The experiment lasted until around 1989.


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## dmc (Dec 9, 2010)

catskills said:


> I am not sure what the problem is here.  I got a few questions:
> 
> 
> On weekends does Windham really have room on the mountain to support more skiers and rider or are they pretty much maxed out?
> ...



Your lashing out - like a groundhog cornered by a fishercat...  You asking questions to prove your point that you think Belleayre is far better then Hunter and Windham...  Somehow always excluding Plattekill who's not happy with Bell either....

yes - this is how private ski areas survive in the real modern world.. 

And when Belleayre puts in it's real estate you can erase a lot of your negative questions because it's going to fill their chairs and coffers...


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## dmc (Dec 9, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Won't somebody please think of the children?!
> .



haha


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## catskills (Dec 9, 2010)

dmc said:


> Your lashing out - like a groundhog cornered by a fishercat...  You asking questions to prove your point that you think Belleayre is far better then Hunter and Windham...  Somehow always excluding Plattekill who's not happy with Bell either....
> 
> yes - this is how private ski areas survive in the real modern world..
> 
> And when Belleayre puts in it's real estate you can erase a lot of your negative questions because it's going to fill their chairs and coffers...



DMC I think you are the fishercat than.  The attacks against Belleayre are never ending.  Its getting old.  

DMC I think your right.  This is like that movie Groundhog Day.  

Actually I have seen this old  fichercat at Hunter Fire tower many years ago.  This guy was really old and was able to make a good living eating the hordes of porcupines up their.  Fishercats and Bears are one of the few animals that can kill and eat porcupines.  Very cool animal.


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## dmc (Dec 9, 2010)

catskills said:


> DMC I think you are a stronger fishercat than I.  The attacks against Belleayre are never ending.  Its getting old.
> 
> Actually I have seen this old  fichercat at Hunter Fire tower many years ago.  This guy was really old and was able to make a good living eating the hordes of porcupines up their.  Fishercats and Bears are one of the few animals that can kill and eat porcupines.  Very cool animal.



Welcome to my world... I've been defending Hunter for the last 2 decades..  And I will continue

I was serious about helping out down there if needed.   We do a Toys For Tots for kids in Greene County and it's a huge success - we could try some like that for FAMILIES affected by this layoff.  I posted this just after you called me Scrooge - but you may've missed it..

I have a Fishercat near my house..  It is cool.  It only takes what it needs and does it on it's own.  very cool..  Barely noticable unless your a rabbit..


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## threecy (Dec 9, 2010)

catskills said:


> DMC I think you are the fishercat than.  The attacks against Belleayre are never ending.  Its getting old.



Look at some of the pro-Belleayre posts in the last few threads - (not direct quotes because I don't have time to dig up the posts) 'Belleayre is closing!'  'Once the lift goes down, there will be no one to fix it'  'They're going to lose their job'  etc.

As more and more data comes out (such as the list of positions being reduced from full-time-year-round, the operating losses, etc.), it becomes more and more obvious that there has been a misinformation campaign coming from some of the pro-Belleayre-hackarama folks.


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## drjeff (Dec 9, 2010)

threecy said:


> Look at some of the pro-Belleayre posts in the last few threads - (not direct quotes because I don't have time to dig up the posts) 'Belleayre is closing!'  'Once the lift goes down, there will be no one to fix it'  'They're going to lose their job'  etc.
> 
> As more and more data comes out (such as the list of positions being reduced from full-time-year-round, the operating losses, etc.), it becomes more and more obvious that there has been a misinformation campaign coming from some of the pro-Belleayre-hackarama folks.



Once again it's the age old "emotion vs. logic" arguement line driving things.  If people could eliminate the emotion from the debate (which is next to impossible for some to do) and look at the facts OBJECTIVELY, it's plain to see that the business model that Bell has been running off isn't finacially sustainable, and that now is the time to make changes to allow them to continue operations, in a new, hopefully net positive cash flow way


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## x10003q (Dec 9, 2010)

curlyfuzzie said:


> What puzzles me about Belleayre is why it's being run by DEC, which is being decimated by state cuts, while Gore and Whiteface have the luxury of being part of ORDA,  one of those wonderful little "Authorities" that escape being included as part of the state budget? Then again, I guess the real question is, why are New York Taxpayers being saddled with the cost of running three ski areas, anyway?



The ORDA funding was cut by $1 million in the state budget compared to last year. ORDA received $5.6 million in this year's budget. Belleayre does not want to be part of ORDA as their main focus is the Lake Placid region. The ORDA board sees Gore as a competitor to LP and tries to do what ever they can to keep Gore not as well equiped as Whiteface. 
To answer your question about why NYS is in the ski business you would need to go back 50-70 years and see what regional and political forces created these places. I would guess an one important factor was developing winter tourism. Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.


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## oakapple (Dec 9, 2010)

x10003q said:


> To answer your question about why NYS is in the ski business you would need to go back 50-70 years and see what regional and political forces created these places. I would guess an one important factor was developing winter tourism. Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.


At the time Belleayre was created, Hunter and Windham (the two nearest competitors) did not exist as ski areas. So the legislation that created Belleayre was worthwhile in two respects. First, it preserved the area for public use, rather than private development. And second, it created an alpine skiing destination that the region lacked at the time.

Obviously, given the way the market has developed, it no longer makes sense for the state to be in the ski business. A much more sensible arrangement would be the one that exists at many other ski areas operated on public lands: the government continues to own the property, but a private entity manages the resort.


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## mondeo (Dec 9, 2010)

x10003q said:


> At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.


What's stopping them from leasing the operation to a private operator? My read on the constitution is that they can't lease the land; if NYS still owned the land and assets, and sort of reverse contracted operations (contractor pays NYS, gets to keep the profits,) wouldn't that fulfill both the letter and intent of the law?


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## ERJ-145CA (Dec 9, 2010)

oakapple said:


> At the time Belleayre was created, Hunter and Windham (the two nearest competitors) did not exist as ski areas. So the legislation that created Belleayre was worthwhile in two respects. First, it preserved the area for public use, rather than private development. And second, it created an alpine skiing destination that the region lacked at the time.



The area was mainly preserved to supply clean drinking water to NYC so development was severly restricted in the interest of preservation for clean water.  Belleayre was mainly created to have some kind of economic engine in the region because of the development restrictions.


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## tjf67 (Dec 9, 2010)

x10003q said:


> The ORDA funding was cut by $1 million in the state budget compared to last year. ORDA received $5.6 million in this year's budget. Belleayre does not want to be part of ORDA as their main focus is the Lake Placid region. The ORDA board sees Gore as a competitor to LP and tries to do what ever they can to keep Gore not as well equiped as Whiteface.
> To answer your question about why NYS is in the ski business you would need to go back 50-70 years and see what regional and political forces created these places. I would guess an one important factor was developing winter tourism. Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. At this point I doubt there will ever be enough political force to change the NY constitution and sell/lease the 3 ski areas to a private operator.



You r about 20% correct.


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## tjf67 (Dec 9, 2010)

mondeo said:


> What's stopping them from leasing the operation to a private operator? My read on the constitution is that they can't lease the land; if NYS still owned the land and assets, and sort of reverse contracted operations (contractor pays NYS, gets to keep the profits,) wouldn't that fulfill both the letter and intent of the law?




No


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## mondeo (Dec 9, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> No


Thank you for your illuminating contribution to this discussion.


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## legalskier (Dec 9, 2010)

"*How is Belleayre operating minus*


catskillman said:


> all those employees????????



I don't know, why don't you ask them?

In the meantime...


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## x10003q (Dec 9, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> You r about 20% correct.



Well spoken.


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## catskills (Dec 10, 2010)

x10003q said:


> ....... Lake Placid is way more busy with visitors in the summer. ..........


 *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
* 

I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.  

I think we need to show a hell of a lot more respect to the hard working ski areas employees.  

Snowmaking is sometimes listed as the top 10 most dangerous jobs. I had two snowmaker  friends  of mine, where one was  knocked unconscious and the other died. Yeah he died.  Unfortunately he is not the only snowmaker to loose his life. 
Snowmaking is cold, hard work, takes a lot of different skills including how to do a lift evac when your buddy is stuck on the lift at 2am in the morning.  
You know those little wheels on top of the towers that supports or pulls down the chair lift cable.  When the bearing in those wheels wears out someone has to climb up there, crawl out on those wheels, reach way out with one arm and change them when its cold, dark and wind is blowing.   Before he does that he has to pull one set of those wheels down with a cable and a winch.  You know what happens when cables break? They can snap and take your head off in less than a second.   All of you, me included, in your nice warm office jobs think about that.  Let me ask you do you and I deserve our pay checks?
Your have to be an artist to run a snowcat.  It takes a lot of skill and years of experience.   Running a snowcat can also be damn dangerous on a 40 degree slope.  
Running all the equipment in the pump house for snowmaking is not something you can just teach someone in a few hours.  It takes years of experience.  What exactly is all the experience worth.  Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on.  Have a Merry Christmas everyone.


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## tjf67 (Dec 10, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Thank you for your illuminating contribution to this discussion.



When you actually read the constitution you will find your answer.  Which will be NO


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## tjf67 (Dec 10, 2010)

x10003q said:


> Well spoken.



Just saying you are speaking  half truths.  Do you believe the stuff you are spewing or just makingup something that sounds good.


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## mondeo (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.


So you're saying they're working hard blowing snow in the summer?


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## mondeo (Dec 10, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> When you actually read the constitution you will find your answer. Which will be NO


 "The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed"

How does this prevent contracting the _operation_ of the ski area? It's not leasing the land. That's what's prohibited.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
> *
> 
> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.
> ...



1st, sorry about your friend who died in snowmaking accident.  that's terrible.

2nd, what does any of the above have to do with being employed year round in a full time position.  Do fisherman get paid during the off seasons?  No.  They have damn dangerous jobs.  Do they get benefits? No.

You've done nothing to justify why tax payers should support 55 year round employees at Bellyare


----------



## dmc (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
> *
> 
> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.
> ...



Whats the 2 Unions representing Belleayre State Employees have to say about all this?  Sounds like a safety hazard..

The unions have not even discussed during this whole thread..


----------



## gmcunni (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .
> 
> ...snip...




no offense but how is it different at Belleayre  when most other ski areas seem to accomplish the same work with seasonal employees?


----------



## dmc (Dec 10, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> no offense but how is it different at Belleayre  when most other ski areas seem to accomplish the same work with seasonal employees?




Thats another thing - nobodies defended what these guys actually do when there's no snow...

I know they have concerts down there..  And a pond to swim in... not sure if it was open last summer..  Maybe a harvest festival..


----------



## x10003q (Dec 10, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Just saying you are speaking  half truths.  Do you believe the stuff you are spewing or just makingup something that sounds good.



Once again well spoken.


----------



## threecy (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on.



I took the vow of poverty (worked in the ski industry) for some time and worked perhaps a few hundred hours on snowmaking over the course of 10 years.  It is indeed a dangerous job.  It is also a 2-3 month job.


----------



## x10003q (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
> *
> 
> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.
> ...



con·text, [kon-tekst]
the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: *You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.*

I am curious how you found my post to be critical of the Belleayre employees.


----------



## mondeo (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> Oh let me guess according to most folks on this forum its only worth a seasonal job with low pay that does not pay enough to live on. Have a Merry Christmas everyone.



It's only worth what the market will bear, just like every other job out there. The fact is every other ski area only does seasonal employment for these guys, and there's enough demand for the jobs that they can fill them. The only reason for the jobs to pay better is if they can't find people to do the job at the pay they're offering.


----------



## threecy (Dec 10, 2010)

mondeo said:


> It's only worth what the market will bear, just like every other job out there. The fact is every other ski area only does seasonal employment for these guys, and there's enough demand for the jobs that they can fill them. The only reason for the jobs to pay better is if they can't find people to do the job at the pay they're offering.



A lot of groomers I knew/know operate heavy equipment in the spring-summer-fall.  Grooming is a way to pass the winter by and make some extra money.


----------



## snafu (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
> *
> 
> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.
> ...



Catskill I admire your fire but you really have no logic or sound reasoning to counter the current situation that NYS (and many other states) are in. Nothing personal to the individuals who are losing/lost their jobs but yeah, I would say that they had it *relatively* easy - a full time employee with state benefits AT A SKI AREA? Think of them as someone who won an all-expense paid trip to some resort. Yeah they had a great time while it lasted - but now its over and now someone is looking for some sympathy for them? Hehe, I was lucky to get some sympathy from my wife when I was laid off in 2001, even that didn't last too long.

BTW - I heard that Bellayre employees also had to walk to work barefoot, and uphill both ways in the snow...it makes me feel a pang of guilt every time I cash that paycheck that I so obviously don't deserve.:razz:


----------



## catskills (Dec 10, 2010)

mondeo said:


> So you're saying they're working hard blowing snow in the summer?


During the summer there are many other jobs on the mountain at all ski areas.  Other ski areas may contract these projects out.  Belleayre has chosen to use their own employees.  

Just to name a few summer ski area jobs:

Putting new snowmaking pipe in the ground on new trails. 
Installing new chair lifts.  Yes most of the chair lift installation work was done by  Belleayre employees.  
Replacing chair lift cables.  
Many other chair lift maintenance jobs. 
Moving fixed gripped chairs to a different location on the cable
Snowmaking pump house maintenance and improvements
New and wider trail construction.  Hint groomer operators are very good at running heavy equipment for trail construction.
New lodge construction.
New maintenance building construction
Many other general construction improvements 
Ton of other jobs I have not listed.  
Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do  deserve it.  Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits?   I don't know.  Can you?


----------



## threecy (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> During the summer there are many other jobs on the mountain at all ski areas.  Other ski areas may contract these projects out.  Belleayre has chosen to use their own employees.


55 of them?!?



catskills said:


> [*]Putting new snowmaking pipe in the ground on new trails.


That takes 8 months?



catskills said:


> [*]Installing new chair lifts.  Yes most of the chair lift installation work was done by  Belleayre employees.


Two out of the past 10 or so years had a new chairlift installation.  How about the other 8?



catskills said:


> [*]Replacing chair lift cables.


Considering most of those lifts are new, I sure hope they aren't replacing cables yet, nevermind every summer.



catskills said:


> [*]Many other chair lift maintenance jobs.
> [*]Moving fixed gripped chairs to a different location on the cable


They have 5 chairlifts.  Even if they weren't modern, that's a fall job, not an 8 month job.



catskills said:


> [*]New and wider trail construction.  Hint groomer operators are very good at running heavy equipment for trail construction.


They're cutting trails 8 months of the year and running heavy equipment on them during mud season?  Seems detrimental to the forever wild tag.



catskills said:


> [*]Ton of other jobs I have not listed.


Ski areas can do all of these jobs with season, occasionally full time labor, or with contractors.  55 full time employees at a government run area the size of Belleayre is a gross misuse of tax dollars...the more people twist things around and propogate lies in defense of this, the worse things are going to get.


----------



## dmc (Dec 10, 2010)

Some stats...  what i could find.. 

list of employees and titles
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/blogs.detail/display/942/DEC-s-layoff---ERI-lists.html

Salary:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/571.html
Conservation Operations Supervisor 1, SG11..$36,523	$44,762
Clerk 1, SG6................................................$27,744	$34,317
General Mechanic, GS12..............................$38,612	$47,138
Laborer, SG06..............................................$27,744	$34,317
Maintenance Assistant, SG09.......................$32,653	$40,136


Keyboard Specialist 1...................................$11.47 per hour


----------



## mondeo (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do deserve it. Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits? I don't know. Can you?



Why do they deserve $30K/year? Because they're good people? Sorry, doesn't cut it. If they can be replaced by someone making $15K/year without a combined increase in cost and decrease in revenue exceeding $15K, then no, they're not worth it. By definition.

Could I live on $15K/year? Probably. Would I want to try? Hell no, that's part of why I'm an engineer. It's a job with low supply and high demand. Does it matter? No. The "living wage" is a myth that only results in inflation and unemployment. If they can't live on $15K/year, then they need to find a job that pays better than that or another job. Perhaps seasonal work during the summer.


----------



## dmc (Dec 10, 2010)

It doesn't cost much to live up here.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Dec 10, 2010)

dmc said:


> Salary:
> http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/571.html



Ski Lift Operator 1 	$13.27 per hour
Ski School Instructor 1 	$12.70 per hour

;-)

Wow.....A lifty makes $13.27 an hour?  That might be a bit more than most mountains....


----------



## jtothewang (Dec 10, 2010)

*Question*

I am new to the thread, but given NYS fiscal situation, has anyone addressed why the state wouldn't just dispose of the asset, likely as well as other assets such as swimming pools and golf courses?  The states needs to get out of these businesses anyway, and who knows what a private developer could do to Belleayre.  From what I hear there is money on the sidelines waiting to jump in.  I also heard Windham wanted to lease some property from NY City and was denied.  The state and municipalities need to wake up!!  I do feel for any lost job though, we just got way over our head this time!!


----------



## millerm277 (Dec 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> Do these employees at all ski areas deserve a minimum $30,000 a year salary with health benefits? Personally I think they do  deserve it.  Can ski area employees be FULLY self sufficient and live on $15,000 a year with no benefits?   I don't know.  Can you?



No. They don't. The goal of business is generally to get the employees you want at the lowest cost. Being that there isn't any shortage of labor, you're wrong. It's unskilled labor. Unskilled labor has never been paid well, and never will be because there are always people who will take the job.

Being that they're state employees, even more so as I certainly don't think any taxpayer would approve of paying double what they need to for labor in any position, and that is who is paying their salaries.

And all of this stupid arguing is completely ignoring that it's not like we're even talking about what the necessary labor should be paid. We're talking about jobs that have at least half the year with absolutely no purpose or jobs where there are far more people than needed to accomplish it's responsibility.

Explain to me what on earth a ski area with 5 lifts needs TWENTY+ year round maintenance people for when every other ski area doesn't need that many, AND doesn't need them full time, and doesn't generally contract out for anything but chairlift installs and maybe huge construction projects they don't have the equipment for anyway. While we're at it, explain to me what two Ski Patrollers at a small daytrip mountain can possibly be doing in July.


----------



## dmc (Dec 10, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> We're talking about jobs that have at least half the year



I read somewhere that they can go up to 44 or 45 weeks...


----------



## millerm277 (Dec 10, 2010)

dmc said:


> I read somewhere that they can go up to 44 or 45 weeks...



I was referring to when most of those 48 or whatever positions where actually needed. (As in: when those guys should be working)


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 11, 2010)

catskills said:


> *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
> *
> 
> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.
> ...



So what's your point, because it is taxpayer funded we should pay these year around salaries even though 99.9% of the related market (ski resorts) use P/T seasonal employees?  BTW, stop with how dangerous of a job it is, I think we all realize this, we also realize that there are tons of dangerous jobs out there.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 11, 2010)

catskills said:


> During the summer there are many other jobs on the mountain at all ski areas.  Other ski areas may contract these projects out.  Belleayre has chosen to use their own employees.
> 
> Just to name a few summer ski area jobs:
> 
> ...



It's called seasonal work for a reason, which inturn means there are other seasons where you can earn doing other things.  It's not like people who do snowmaking, grooming, F/B don't know that it's only part of what they can do for the entire year to earn money, well I guess the employees at Bellearye might not know, but the other seasonal employees at other non tax funded resorts do.  

I feel awful that these people will lose their jobs, but tough times call for tough measures.  Although I guess you could argue that even in good times these jobs as they currently stand/stood should have never been.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Dec 12, 2010)

catskills said:


> *Yeah so.  What has this got to do with anything.  Jackson Hole is also WAY more busy in the summer.  This thread is all over the place.  :smash:
> *
> 
> I want to add something to this thread that really pisses me off :angry:  .  A number of posts seem to imply that the Belleayre employees have it easy with their soft cushion jobs and they don't deserve their pay from the tax payers.  I beg to differ.  This is an insult to not only the Belleayre employees but employees at all the ski areas.
> ...



It is this sort of alarmist, irrelevant nonsense that is wholly representative of the bankrupt state of discourse when it comes to govt employees and expenses across the country.   In the current parlance, converting part of an over-staffed, full-time workforce into a more efficient seasonal workforce = "massive layoffs!!!111".  In a similar manner, slowing the rate of growth in a govt program is equivalent to "massive cuts in the programs for those who can least afford it!!!11!!".  

Why is Belleayre unique in the industry?  Does its infrastructure require 2-3x more maintenance and supervision than literally ANY private operator out there?  Why should the taxpayers of NY State have to fund this featherbeded payroll?  To take your arguments to their logical extreme, why not simply have the State fund "make work" jobs, with half the unemployed digging ditches and the other half filling them in?  Free lunches from Albany every day!!!


----------



## Bandit2941 (Dec 12, 2010)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Ski Lift Operator 1 	$13.27 per hour
> Ski School Instructor 1 	$12.70 per hour
> 
> ;-)
> ...



The Lift Operators are higher up the rung then a regular lifty "lift attendent." Each lift that is in operation has to have at least one "Lift Operator" who has extra training running the lift on duty.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 12, 2010)

Bandit2941 said:


> The Lift Operators are higher up the rung then a regular lifty "lift attendent." Each lift that is in operation has to have at least one "Lift Operator" who has extra training running the lift on duty.



Really?  Since when?  I am not being a dink, just curious.  I was a lifty for a winter about 10 years ago while in college and it was me at the the bottom and local kid at the top.  Just the two of us.  On the more popular lifts you might get three or 4 lifties at the bottom and 1 or 2 at the top.  From time to time a maintance guy would stop by, the lifts manger might stop by, etc.  I don't ever recall a dedicated "lift operator" at each lift....or even at a lift.....could be wrong, I drank quite a bit back then.


----------



## Bandit2941 (Dec 12, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Really?  Since when?  I am not being a dink, just curious.  I was a lifty for a winter about 10 years ago while in college and it was me at the the bottom and local kid at the top.  Just the two of us.  On the more popular lifts you might get three or 4 lifties at the bottom and 1 or 2 at the top.  From time to time a maintance guy would stop by, the lifts manger might stop by, etc.  I don't ever recall a dedicated "lift operator" at each lift....or even at a lift.....could be wrong, I drank quite a bit back then.



I'm not sure how long it's been that way at Belleayre but that's how it is now, especially at the high speed quad as that thing is finicky....


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Dec 12, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> There aren't a great deal of hard numbers out there, but I did find this bit of information on North Carolina's ski industry, which you could compare decently to Belleayre.
> 
> For 671,544 skier visits, they had 96 full time employees. Completely ignoring the greater amount of lodging and other facilities at the NC areas overall compared to Belleayre...that comes up with 25 full time employees if you cut it down to the same level of skier visits. And Belleayre previously had 58 full timers.



It's actually worse than that, b/c your analysis doesn't take into account the fact that there are a certain number of full time positions (e.g. department heads) at any given ski resort that are "fixed" irrespective of how large they are.  There's only one mtn ops manager at Vail and only one at Cattaloochee, even though the former is many times larger in terms of lifts, terrain and skier visits.  Given that background, it's clear that Bell is wildly over-staffed to a degree that few can truly contemplate.


----------



## MarkC (Dec 12, 2010)

dmc said:


> yeah - state pays for liability insurance, workman's comp and group health insurance..
> 
> And the employees are funded by the state..  thus the layoffs.
> 
> And they also don't pay property tax,  sales tax(sales and purchases), fuel taxes, etc...



Not to mention that all of their vehicles are bought and maintained by the DOT.


----------



## MarkC (Dec 12, 2010)

How many full time year round employees does a mountain like Stow have?  I guarantee that it is less than the amount that were laid off at Belleayre.


----------



## millerm277 (Dec 12, 2010)

MarkC said:


> How many full time year round employees does a mountain like Stow have?  I guarantee that it is less than the amount that were laid off at Belleayre.



There aren't a great deal of hard numbers out there, but I did find this bit of information on North Carolina's ski industry, which you could compare decently to Belleayre.

For 671,544 skier visits, they had 96 full time employees. Completely ignoring the greater amount of lodging and other facilities at the NC areas overall compared to Belleayre...that comes up with 25 full time employees if you cut it down to the same level of skier visits. And Belleayre previously had 58 full timers.


----------



## tjf67 (Dec 13, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> It's actually worse than that, b/c your analysis doesn't take into account the fact that there are a certain number of full time positions (e.g. department heads) at any given ski resort that are "fixed" irrespective of how large they are.  There's only one mtn ops manager at Vail and only one at Cattaloochee, even though the former is many times larger in terms of lifts, terrain and skier visits.  Given that background, it's clear that Bell is wildly over-staffed to a degree that few can truly contemplate.




In all fairness a lot of the workers from Bell are diverted to state parks during the summer.  These people were not useless.  To many sure, now get rid of some of the upper level managers at bell that are pulling a salary of 150k and retire on 60% pay after 30 years with full benes.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 13, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> In all fairness a lot of the workers from Bell are diverted to state parks during the summer.  These people were not useless.  To many sure, now get rid of some of the upper level managers at bell that are pulling a salary of 150k and retire on 60% pay after 30 years with full benes.



Can't disagree with you there.  Can't imagine working from 25 to 55, getting to retire making more than many than most of those who pay your nest egg.  On top of that many can double dip if they play it right.  Unfortunately I think many (including myself from time to time) crap on the lower level workers becuase of things like you mentioned about upper management.  On top of that most of those pensions can't be funded at there current rate, at least in many states.  They need to do away with the pension system and slowly move towards employee retirement plans like a 401k.  This is a case where Unions have out lived their usefullness....of course the Union bosses and their little tag alongs have their pensions funded.  So corrupt.


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> In all fairness a lot of the workers from Bell are diverted to state parks during the summer.  These people were not useless.  To many sure, now get rid of some of the upper level managers at bell that are pulling a salary of 150k and retire on 60% pay after 30 years with full benes.



Top pay is 93k and he has more than earned it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2010)

you get to keep your 93K a year job when managing an area that posted a 1M operating loss the year prior?

sweet sign me up


----------



## threecy (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Top pay is 93k and he has more than earned it.



That's a heck of a lot more than a lot of private sector ski area executives make!


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

threecy said:


> That's a heck of a lot more than a lot of private sector ski area executives make!



Prove it


----------



## mondeo (Dec 13, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> you get to keep your 93K a year job when managing an area that posted a 1M operating loss the year prior?
> 
> sweet sign me up


Really. I mean, a competent manager wouldn't have nearly as many full year employees. He should get on that.


----------



## tjf67 (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Prove it



Can you prove the top guy/gal only makes 93k per year?  I think that number is wrong.


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> you get to keep your 93K a year job when managing an area that posted a 1M operating loss the year prior?
> 
> sweet sign me up



Believe that was mostly due to improvements

He has gone from 75000 skier visits to 175000 skier visits..Thats one reason he has the job.

Cant find financials from prev yrs to say what average profit/loss was.


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Can you prove the top guy/gal only makes 93k per year?  I think that number is wrong.



search it.. its public 93.7 a yr


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> search it.. its public 93.7 a yr



tony lanza-superintendent at  BELLEAYRE


----------



## threecy (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Prove it



Says the person who earlier posted the baseless Belleayre is closing rumor.


----------



## o3jeff (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Believe that was mostly due to improvements
> 
> He has gone from 75000 skier visits to 175000 skier visits..Thats one reason he has the job.
> 
> Cant find financials from prev yrs to say what average profit/loss was.



Wow thats great, improved skier visit by 100k but can't turn a profit for the area.


----------



## threecy (Dec 13, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> Wow thats great, improved skier visit by 100k but can't turn a profit for the area.



How much was spent during that time?  The state has spent millions of dollars on three brand new quad chairlifts in the past 12 years or so.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Believe that was mostly due to improvements
> 
> He has gone from 75000 skier visits to 175000 skier visits..Thats one reason he has the job.
> 
> Cant find financials from prev yrs to say what average profit/loss was.




The figure I saw was for 'operating loss'.  Capital expenditures are usually separate from operational expenditures.


----------



## mondeo (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Believe that was mostly due to improvements
> 
> He has gone from 75000 skier visits to 175000 skier visits..Thats one reason he has the job.
> 
> Cant find financials from prev yrs to say what average profit/loss was.


Increasing sales by selling at a loss isn't a very good business plan.


----------



## oakapple (Dec 13, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Increasing sales by selling at a loss isn't a very good business plan.



It sometimes CAN be, if enough of those customers given free or heavily discounted lift tickets eventually come back and pay full price. I haven’t seen enough data posted here to say whether the business plan is good or bad.


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Prove it



We don't need to... We aren't paying their salaries....


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Believe that was mostly due to improvements
> 
> He has gone from 75000 skier visits to 175000 skier visits..Thats one reason he has the job.
> 
> Cant find financials from prev yrs to say what average profit/loss was.



by giving away tickets... And undercutting the other mountains ticket prices...


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

threecy said:


> Says the person who earlier posted the baseless Belleayre is closing rumor.



he can no longer be trusted..


----------



## gmcunni (Dec 13, 2010)

Belleayre has bumps 








just wanted to share that and didn't want to start another Belleayre thread.


----------



## catskillman (Dec 13, 2010)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Ski Lift Operator 1 	$13.27 per hour
> Ski School Instructor 1 	$12.70 per hour
> 
> Instructors at Hunter start out at under $8 an hour.  50 cents more and hour for each certification level.  $12.70 is more of a requested private lesson rate!!.


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

threecy said:


> How much was spent during that time?  The state has spent millions of dollars on three brand new quad chairlifts in the past 12 years or so.



1  solid grip quad was sold to catamount and replaced a detachable
and there is 1 other solid grip quad


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

dmc said:


> We don't need to... We aren't paying their salaries....



Then you cant say its higher than other ski areas


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Then you cant say its higher than other ski areas



It's none of my business what someone makes that works for a private company..  I know people that are highly placed at Hunter that don't make nearly that much..  But - It's not my business to divulge such info in detail.  

I'm not going to expose someones personal business for a lame debate..


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

dmc said:


> by giving away tickets... And undercutting the other mountains ticket prices...



Give aways where in place of avertising.Only have 25k budget for said avertising.
Hunter has give aways at local gas station.
Under cutting is what you say.Most say its a fair price for whats offered at mountain


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Give aways where in place of avertising.Only have 25k budget for said avertising.
> Hunter has give aways at local gas station.
> Under cutting is what you say.Most say its a fair price for whats offered at mountain



If Belleayre made a profit - I'd say go for it..   If I have to subsidize them I say stop it....  If Hunter thinks they can spare free tickets within their budget then I say go for it... 

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blizzard-of-free-state-ski-lift-tickets-buries-867330.php



> "Everyone does some free tickets, but our numbers are 20 percent of what Belleayre does," said Russ Coloton, president of Hunter Mountain Ski Bowl. "For a long time, the state has been buying business. If this was an international company, it would be called dumping."
> 
> According to Belleayre records, Belleayre gave away nearly 16,000 free tickets last year, out of about 169,000 skier visits, and posted a $1 million operating loss. The year before, Belleayre gave away about 16,700 free tickets out of 154,700 skier visits and posted a $76,000 operating loss.





> About a half-hour away, at Windham, General Manager Tim Woods said it is unfair that he has competition "flooding the market with inexpensive product. They are showing an increase in skier visits because of this predatory pricing."
> 
> He noted that Belleayre also is charging significantly less for a lift ticket than either Windham or Hunter. Belleayre charges $54 for an adult weekend daily lift ticket. Windham and Hunter charge $68 and $65, respectively.
> 
> "I hope the state will take a look at this, in their quest to get us out of the financial situation that we are in. They should be looking at every avenue," Woods said.


----------



## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

dmc said:


> It's none of my business what someone makes that works for a private company..  I know people that are highly placed at Hunter that don't make nearly that much..  But - It's not my business to divulge such info in detail.
> 
> I'm not going to expose someones personal business for a lame debate..



Did not ask you too.Someone said it i said prove it.
And same is for skier count..Prove belleayre's skiers are from WIndham and Hunter.Since they are private there's no real proof that the skiers came from hunter and windham


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## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2010)

what's odd to me is seeing Bell increase skier visits last year by 10%, yet lose 13X as much money.


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## skidbump (Dec 13, 2010)

dmc said:


> If Belleayre made a profit - I'd say go for it..   If I have to subsidize them I say stop it....  If Hunter thinks they can spare free tickets within their budget then I say go for it...
> 
> http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blizzard-of-free-state-ski-lift-tickets-buries-867330.php



Hunter says 20% but since its not a public company who's to say its not BS


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## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Did not ask you too.Someone said it i said prove it.
> And same is for skier count..Prove belleayre's skiers are from WIndham and Hunter.Since they are private there's no real proof that the skiers came from hunter and windham



Prove they are not - your the guy plastering the internet with BS...  go for it...

in the meantime:

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Blizzard-of-free-state-ski-lift-tickets-buries-867330.php


> According to Belleayre records, Belleayre gave away nearly 16,000 free tickets last year, out of about 169,000 skier visits, and posted a $1 million operating loss. The year before, Belleayre gave away about 16,700 free tickets out of 154,700 skier visits and posted a $76,000 operating loss.


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## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Did not ask you too.Someone said it i said prove it.
> And same is for skier count..Prove belleayre's skiers are from WIndham and Hunter.Since they are private there's no real proof that the skiers came from hunter and windham



I don't need to prove anything to you - as I've said - you are not to be trusted with your "sky is falling" BS - every damn year...

It's unfair practice... and your mountain doesn't have to operate in a budget like the real world...


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## Tin Woodsman (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Give aways where in place of avertising.Only have 25k budget for said avertising.
> Hunter has give aways at local gas station.
> Under cutting is what you say.Most say its a fair price for whats offered at mountain



I have a brilliant idea - maybe if the mountain's labor costs weren't so high due to featherbedding the payroll, they'd be able to spend the same amount of expense dollars, only with a much larger % directed for crazy things like advertising and marketing.  Stick with me here, b/c I know it's a bit loony.  From what I've read in books, when you dedicate money to advertising and marketing yourself, it often results in an increase in customer awareness, trial and adoption.  In other words, when you get the word out, people tend to want to buy your product and you don't have to give it away for free anymore.  

Genius!!


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I have a brilliant idea - maybe if the mountain's labor costs weren't so high due to featherbedding the payroll, they'd be able to spend the same amount of expense dollars, only with a much larger % directed for crazy things like advertising and marketing.  Stick with me here, b/c I know it's a bit loony.  From what I've read in books, when you dedicate money to advertising and marketing yourself, it often results in an increase in customer awareness, trial and adoption.  In other words, when you get the word out, people tend to want to buy your product and you don't have to give it away for free anymore.
> 
> Genius!!



Belleayre doesn't have to pay it's employees...  The DEC does..


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## threecy (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> 1  solid grip quad was sold to catamount and replaced a detachable
> and there is 1 other solid grip quad



In 1999, two (2) brand new fixed grip quads were installed at Belleyare
In 2006, one (1) high speed detachable quad was installed at Belleayre and considered to be a brand new install.  Some of the vintage (7 year old) components were reused (such as towers), however the bulk of the lift was brand new.


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## threecy (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Did not ask you too.Someone said it i said prove it.



I was in operation/sales management at a mid-sized ski area, full time seasonal, part time year round.  I made nowhere near 90K.

Those salaries are way out of line, especially considering they don't include the benefits (which are leaps and bounds ahead of what a typical private sector ski area employee earns).


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## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2010)

93K is the GMs salary yes?

I was privy to the books at Snowshoe in 2002.  Much larger operation, but he made 115K.


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## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> 93K is the GMs salary yes?



I guess that's what Tony is...  

Tony deserves that much...  He's done a great job.. I may not agree with all of it money-wise but he's got a good thing going for his cliental;  He's a good guy.  It's good that they keep him - he could go just about anywhere.


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## MarkC (Dec 13, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Give aways where in place of avertising.Only have 25k budget for said avertising.
> Hunter has give aways at local gas station.
> Under cutting is what you say.Most say its a fair price for whats offered at mountain



$20 Wednesdays and $25 Fridays all season long is undercutting.  Especially when they lowered the Friday price right after Plattekill decided to do $30 Fridays.  Maybe they would not have to lay so many people off if they charged full price for a ticket.


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## 2knees (Dec 13, 2010)

this just got kicked up a notch.


----------



## gmcunni (Dec 13, 2010)

ibtl


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Dec 13, 2010)

Ok $1 a guess on who the alter belongs to.  Tomorrow Greg tells us who the IP address belongs to and the winner gets the pot?


----------



## threecy (Dec 13, 2010)

I don't know if it helps, but I clicked the report post button.  Ridiculous behavior.


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## 2knees (Dec 13, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> ibtl




i refuse to learn text abbreviations and shit.  could you just type what that means Gary?


----------



## gmcunni (Dec 13, 2010)

2knees said:


> i refuse to learn text abbreviations and shit.  could you just type what that means Gary?



nothing profound - in before the lock


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 13, 2010)

Let's try and keep it civil.  

And if that was an alias, the IP addresses will be searched in the morning and the regular forum member will be banned as well.


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

For all the Belleayre employees, local "extreme skiers" and ski reps joining this thread late with no context..

I am not happy that people lost their jobs.  I have offered to assist in any way if needed,  I help with Greene County charities and would assist with Ulster County as well.. 
I do question weather all of these jobs are needed in the form they exist in today
I support Tony Lanza and everything he's done to promote the mountain.(ie. RADEX Sports).
I do not support the free tickets and promotions that undercut other Catskill ski areas.
I enjoy Belleayre and have skied and snowboarded there.  
I have enjoyed the late season riding there and have helped "kill the keg"
I support Belleayre during the summer by attending concerts.

And.. We have many mutual friends - let's stay civil


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 13, 2010)

Can somebody, just give me the nuts n bolts of what happened, apparently I missed something.  Just curious.


----------



## dmc (Dec 13, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Can somebody, just give me the nuts n bolts of what happened, apparently I missed something.  Just curious.



We had a person come on and create a derogatory username and a flame post.

I know who it is.


----------



## 2knees (Dec 13, 2010)

what's funny is you spew alot of crap DMC.  You also cry when it comes back to roost.


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## millerm277 (Dec 13, 2010)

2knees said:


> what's funny is you spew alot of crap DMC.  You also cry when it comes back to roost.



To be fair, there is a difference between criticism of the points people are making and outright personal attacks.

He goes a bit far (sometimes too far) in the former and then the people who apparently can't figure out how to respond in kind go for the second instead. My take on it.

Back to our regularly scheduled debate over the obvious. :grin:


----------



## catskills (Dec 14, 2010)

dmc said:


> For all the Belleayre employees, local "extreme skiers" and ski reps joining this thread late with no context..
> 
> I am not happy that people lost their jobs.  I have offered to assist in any way if needed,  I help with Greene County charities and would assist with Ulster County as well..
> I do question weather all of these jobs are needed in the form they exist in today
> ...


DMC my only issue with your post is when you said,  " I have offered to assist in any way if needed,  I help with Greene County charities and would assist with Ulster County as well.."

DMC its great that you  donate to charities.  I am not trying to be negative here.  DMC you have to realize that predominately what people want are good jobs that pay enough for them to be self sufficient. Let me repeat that.  Predominately what people want are good jobs that pay enough to be self sufficient.  People do not want charity.  They get depressed, and have all sorts of medical issues that follow when they have to accept charity. Keeping people working is very  important for the USA.  Having a strong productive middle class is what is needed in this country.   Without it, we fail.  

DMC I recommend you  think about joining and volunteering in the Hunter Fire Department.   I know they are in need of members.  I think if you had some first hand experience responding to 911 calls in the middle of the night to help people and neighbors in the community, it might be a real learning experience for you.  Just a thought.


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## dmc (Dec 14, 2010)

catskills said:


> DMC my only issue with your post is when you said,  " I have offered to assist in any way if needed,  I help with Greene County charities and would assist with Ulster County as well.."
> 
> DMC its great that you  donate to charities.  I am not trying to be negative here.  DMC you have to realize that predominately what people want are good jobs that pay enough for them to be self sufficient. Let me repeat that.  Predominately what people want are good jobs that pay enough to be self sufficient.  People do not want charity.  They get depressed, and have all sorts of medical issues that follow when they have to accept charity. Keeping people working is very  important for the USA.  Having a strong productive middle class is what is needed in this country.   Without it, we fail.
> 
> DMC I recommend you  think about joining and volunteering in the Hunter Fire Department.   I know they are in need of members.  I think if you had some first hand experience responding to 911 calls in the middle of the night to help people and neighbors in the community, it might be a real learning experience for you.  Just a thought.



I don't have time with my job to volunteer for something like a fire dept. and people do accept charity.    I can only help where I can..  And I will continue to do so.

I understand the issue..   I hope everything works out for the Belleayre folks..

Have a Merry Christmas and a good new Year..


----------



## o3jeff (Dec 14, 2010)

catskills said:


> DMC my only issue with your post is when you said,  " I have offered to assist in any way if needed,  I help with Greene County charities and would assist with Ulster County as well.."
> 
> DMC its great that you  donate to charities.  I am not trying to be negative here.  DMC you have to realize that predominately what people want are good jobs that pay enough for them to be self sufficient. Let me repeat that.  Predominately what people want are good jobs that pay enough to be self sufficient.  People do not want charity.  They get depressed, and have all sorts of medical issues that follow when they have to accept charity. Keeping people working is very  important for the USA.  Having a strong productive middle class is what is needed in this country.   Without it, we fail.
> 
> DMC I recommend you  think about joining and volunteering in the Hunter Fire Department.   I know they are in need of members.  I think if you had some first hand experience responding to 911 calls in the middle of the night to help people and neighbors in the community, it might be a real learning experience for you.  Just a thought.



I just don't understand some peoples thinking. Would you start a business, employ more people than needed and pay them top wages and benefits and have no problem taking a loss every year? Doesn't sound like good business to me.


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## skidbump (Dec 14, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> I just don't understand some peoples thinking. Would you start a business, employ more people than needed and pay them top wages and benefits and have no problem taking a loss every year? Doesn't sound like good business to me.



In a nut shell .....Because they took the surrounding communities "4 or 5 towns" and made them into a NYC resevoir.
Belleayre mission statement

•To preserve and protect the environment
•To provide recreation
•To serve as an economic stimulus to the local region at no cost to the tax payer
•To serve as a model for future growth of other ski areas.

The Catskill Park is a mountainous region of public and private lands in Ulster, Greene, Delaware and Sullivan Counties - the "Forest Preserve" counties. 98 peaks over 3,000 feet form an impressive skyline. This special and often remote mountain landscape was only occasionally inhabited by native Americans. Later it was settled by the Dutch, English, Irish and Germans. It's rich history includes logging, bluestone quarrying, leather tanning, wintergreen and blueberry harvesting, trapping, fishing, mountain house tourism, railroads, and even World war II pilot training. Today, a balance between the hands of man and those of nature is returning. Nearly 60% of the lands in the Catskill Park are privately owned, the home of about 50,000 year-around residents; the rest is publicly owned "Forest Preserve".

Along with similar lands in the Adirondacks, the Catskill Forest Preserve was created in 1885 by an act of the New York State Legislature. Attempts to weaken the law that established the Preserve led the State to give it even stronger protection in 1894, when these now famous words were added to the New York State Constitution:
The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed.
Since its creation in 1885, the Catskill Forest Preserve has grown from 434,000 to almost 3,000,000 acres. 

I agree with DMC that there are to many fulltime yr round employees."i beleive that most were made fulltime 3 yrs ago"

I know you will all see 3rd  on the list "•To serve as an economic stimulus to the local region at no cost to the tax payer" But i beleive most yrs its close to break even.

You will also not see 4th which i believe helped other surrounding ski areas"•To serve as a model for future growth of other ski areas"

So as a state run facility,it has pretty much lived upto its original mission statement.

I am finished with this.I started it on another thread with the info that was supplied to me
.
Prior to 12/1 mountain wasnt fully funded.

That included no paid or drastic reduction in
Ski instructors "think there were 4 on books prior to 12/1" 
Ski patrol
on mountian programs"kids camp,work shops,freestyle,ect ect"
limited snow making "west side wasnt going to open"
seasonal ski employees
layoff of 48 of 55 fulltime yr round employees that were offered reduction in pay and reduction in hours.
Everything was restored except the layoffs by 12/2.

This has happened 3 times in last 5 or 6 yrs "except layoffs"

So merry christmas and happy new year 

Pat


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## threecy (Dec 14, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> Would you start a business, employ more people than needed and pay them top wages and benefits and have no problem taking a loss every year? Doesn't sound like good business to me.



You missed something - your hypothetical business would also be competing with its own owners.


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## oakapple (Dec 14, 2010)

o3jeff said:


> I just don't understand some peoples thinking. Would you start a business, employ more people than needed and pay them top wages and benefits and have no problem taking a loss every year? Doesn't sound like good business to me.


Do we know that it takes a loss every year? The only statistics that I saw (upthread) were for the last _two_ years, which (owing to the recession) might not have been typical. The decision to employ “more people than needed” and the scale at which they were paid were probably government policies that the management of Belleayre resort itself did not have the authority to alter.

In any case, public spaces are generally not run for profit. I mean, what is the “profit” on Central Park? How about Ellis Island or the Grand Canyon? These are not “businesses” in the normal sense of the word, but resources set aside for the public good.

I do realize that Belleayre is in a different position, because it now competes with private businesses, such as Hunter and Windham, that offer a very similar service. But that wasn’t the case when Belleayre was established: Hunter and Windham didn’t exist then (as ski resorts).


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## jtothewang (Dec 14, 2010)

I feel bad for the workers at Belleayre, but the situation is much more macro than that.  The state needs to liquidate assets.  Golf courses, parks, pools and ski resorts.  Sorry, but we are entering what will likely be a 10-20 problem.  We can fix the problem, but we need to start now.  Again, what is the issue with either a sale of Belleayre or a long-term, say 99-year, lease of Bealleayre.  Same with golf courses, parks, pools among other.

The macro problem here is gonna be very hard to solve, but we need to start working on it now.  Belleayre closing or letting employees go is not at all a solution to the problem.  I say sell or lease.


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## oakapple (Dec 14, 2010)

jtothewang said:


> I feel bad for the workers at Belleayre, but the situation is much more macro than that.  The state needs to liquidate assets.  Golf courses, parks, pools and ski resorts.  Sorry, but we are entering what will likely be a 10-20 problem.  We can fix the problem, but we need to start now.  Again, what is the issue with either a sale of Belleayre or a long-term, say 99-year, lease of Bealleayre.  Same with golf courses, parks, pools among other.
> 
> The macro problem here is gonna be very hard to solve, but we need to start working on it now.  Belleayre closing or letting employees go is not at all a solution to the problem.  I say sell or lease.



Apparently it is written into the state constitution that those are public lands, and altering the Constitution is pretty hard. In addition, one ought to be very careful about 99-year leases. Entering into a 99-year solution to a 10 or 20-year problem can turn out to be a big mistake.


----------



## goldsbar (Dec 14, 2010)

This is a tough one.  I'm generally against government run enterprise.  But, in this case, the government completely limits what the community can do.  Everyone in NYC for whom a $94k salary is peanuts is benefiting from the water, etc.  In that view, $1 million loss to employ all those people is pretty damn cheap (BTW, thought pretty much all ski areas lost money and hope to make it up on real estate - this is somewhat of a shrinking sport).  It's not like they're attracting people to the area with runaway salaries.  On the other hand, the cheap tickets do seem unfair to the other areas.

For the true haters on the thread, you really don't want Belleayre to close unless you have some sort of financial stake in the other areas.  The crowds everywhere else except Plattekill are bad enough on the weekends.  The loss of Belleayre would likely lead to fewer skiers and riders, not more at another resort.


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## threecy (Dec 14, 2010)

goldsbar said:


> For the true haters on the thread, you really don't want Belleayre to close



Who said they want Belleayre to close?


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## mondeo (Dec 14, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Apparently it is written into the state constitution that those are public lands, and altering the Constitution is pretty hard. In addition, one ought to be very careful about 99-year leases. Entering into a 99-year solution to a 10 or 20-year problem can turn out to be a big mistake.


Sale or lease of the lands is against the contstitution. I still haven't seen any reasonable argument that says contracting the operation of the ski area is illegal, though.


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## threecy (Dec 14, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I still haven't seen any reasonable argument that says contracting the operation of the ski area is illegal, though.



...especially considering the food and beverage operations at the ski area are already contracted out, per earlier posts here.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 14, 2010)

I missed that the F&B was contracted out.  Makes the 55 number seem even higher.  I would've figured 5 to 10 of the 55 were from the F&B side of things.


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## threecy (Dec 15, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I missed that the F&B was contracted out.  Makes the 55 number seem even higher.  I would've figured 5 to 10 of the 55 were from the F&B side of things.



The ski shop is also apparently contracted out.

I'm not sure what firm has them now, but the Boston Concession Group used to operate both if I'm not mistaken.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Dec 15, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Do we know that it takes a loss every year? The only statistics that I saw (upthread) were for the last _two_ years, which (owing to the recession) might not have been typical. The decision to employ “more people than needed” and the scale at which they were paid were probably government policies that the management of Belleayre resort itself did not have the authority to alter.
> 
> In any case, public spaces are generally not run for profit. I mean, what is the “profit” on Central Park? How about Ellis Island or the Grand Canyon? These are not “businesses” in the normal sense of the word, but resources set aside for the public good.
> 
> I do realize that Belleayre is in a different position, because it now competes with private businesses, such as Hunter and Windham, that offer a very similar service. But that wasn’t the case when Belleayre was established: Hunter and Windham didn’t exist then (as ski resorts).



In general though (not directly directed at Bellearyes situation), parks, etc still have a budget and still should only hire and pay those according to needs, no?


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## catskills (Dec 15, 2010)

The real question here is what ever Belleayre's operating lost is, does NY state make more than that up on the taxes collected on the money spent in NY versus VT?

If Belleayre closed its doors, the other ski areas in the Catskills can not handle an additional 180,000 skiers and riders.  Where would those 180,000 skiers and riders go for their  turns?  If they go to VT, then NY not only looses a lot of tax dollars.  NY state looses economic dollars to VT.  Money spent in NY state is then spent and re-spent many times over.  Each time the money is used to purchase something, NY state collects sales tax.  Money spent in VT as opposed to NY would be a huge negative impact to the economy and NY state taxes collected. 

The big picture, Belleayre brings in money to NY state from other states and makes a lot of money for NY state.   Should Belleayre loose some full time employees.  Probably yes.  Should Belleayre loose 80 percent of its full time employees?  That seems a bit extreme.  

I don't believe any ski area the size of Belleayre operates with only 7 full time employees (55 - 48 = 7 employees)  to run a down hill ski area, cross country ski area, summer beach, summer concerts, and many other summer events.


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## mondeo (Dec 15, 2010)

catskills said:


> The real question here is what ever Belleayre's operating lost is, does NY state make more than that up on the taxes collected on the money spent in NY versus VT?


No, that's not the question. The question should be how to most efficiently run the ski area. If you decide that it may be in the interest of the general public to offer some below market value skiing, that's one thing. But to waste money by overpaying staff and unneccesarily employing them year-round, that's just stupid. And undercutting other ski areas or dumping free tickets just because you don't have a mandate to make money is stupid as well.


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## oakapple (Dec 15, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> oakapple said:
> 
> 
> > The decision to employ “more people than needed” and the scale at which they were paid were probably government policies that the management of Belleayre resort itself did not have the authority to alter.
> ...


That’s not a bad description of how it _ought_ to be. In reality, government-run businesses often have constraints (imposed by legislation or elected officials) that the equivalent private-sector business would not have. For instance, salaries might be tied into a state-wide pay scale, instead of being pegged to the going rate for ski-industry employees. The head of Belleayre might not have the same authority to hire and fire that a privately-run ski area CEO would have.

Heaven knows how it was decided that Belleayre should have 55 year-round full-time employees. It might have been decades ago, for reasons now lost to the sands of time. Once those people were hired, they had the same job security as government employees throughout New York state, completely detached from the economics of the ski resort.


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## mondeo (Dec 15, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Heaven knows how it was decided that Belleayre should have 55 year-round full-time employees. It might have been decades ago, for reasons now lost to the sands of time. Once those people were hired, they had the same job security as government employees throughout New York state, completely detached from the economics of the ski resort.


From what I've read, it was three years ago that 48 full time positions were created.


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## dmc (Dec 15, 2010)

I personally think that based upon my observations and conversations over the years that* IF* Belleayre closed many of those people would not go to Hunter(I can't speak for Windham and Plattekill). 

Because they(and I'm not saying everyone) just don't enjoy the Hunter "vibe", it's party history and terrain.  As well as the fact that people would have to pay more for tickets.  I suspect PA would be the move for many the NJ/PA clients because PA resorts have similar terrain.   Some from CT would probably start hitting Southern VT. 
I think the bus trips may end up at Windham - I see ski club flyers all the time that talk about bus trips to either Belleayre or Windham but not Hunter. 

_I would just like to add that I do not think that Belleayre will close and I am not happy for people losing their jobs._


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## threecy (Dec 15, 2010)

catskills said:


> I don't believe any ski area the size of Belleayre operates with only 7 full time employees (55 - 48 = 7 employees)  to run a down hill ski area, cross country ski area, summer beach, summer concerts, and many other summer events.



Where does it say Belleayre only has 7 full time employees?

There is a HUGE difference between full time seasonal and full time year-round.


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## skidbump (Dec 15, 2010)

mondeo said:


> From what I've read, it was three years ago that 48 full time positions were created.



I beleive that most were full time seasonal getting laid off and then brought back again as full time seasonal,keeping there 80% + hours to keep benefits.


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## skidbump (Dec 15, 2010)

threecy said:


> Where does it say Belleayre only has 7 full time employees?
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between full time season and full time year-round.



7 full time yr round
other 48 ,if laid off would end up becomming fulltime seasonal.
again if laid off and return it would be a pay cut and a 20% hour reduction

 Dont I think the hour reduction would not be during ski season.
But i really dont know that.

i also dont think These numbers haveanything to do with normal ski season ft/pt


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## Hawkshot99 (Dec 15, 2010)

threecy said:


> The ski shop is also apparently contracted out.
> 
> I'm not sure what firm has them now, but the Boston Concession Group used to operate both if I'm not mistaken.



Boston Concessions is now called Center Plate.  They still have the food.  I believe Bellayre runs the shop themselves now.  The company I work for used to have the shop there back 20+years ago though.


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## Tin Woodsman (Dec 15, 2010)

catskills said:


> The real question here is what ever Belleayre's operating lost is, does NY state make more than that up on the taxes collected on the money spent in NY versus VT?
> 
> If Belleayre closed its doors, the other ski areas in the Catskills can not handle an additional 180,000 skiers and riders.  Where would those 180,000 skiers and riders go for their  turns?  If they go to VT, then NY not only looses a lot of tax dollars.  NY state looses economic dollars to VT.  Money spent in NY state is then spent and re-spent many times over.  Each time the money is used to purchase something, NY state collects sales tax.  Money spent in VT as opposed to NY would be a huge negative impact to the economy and NY state taxes collected.



This is a red herring.  How likely is it that the DEC closes Belleayre?  Why use a silly scare tactic, for the 2nd or 3rd year running at that?  It only serves to further diminish your credibility.  It's the same type of propaganda we here when any govt agency is threatened with budget cuts.



> The big picture, Belleayre brings in money to NY state from other states and makes a lot of money for NY state.   Should Belleayre loose some full time employees.  Probably yes.  Should Belleayre loose 80 percent of its full time employees?  That seems a bit extreme.
> 
> I don't believe any ski area the size of Belleayre operates with only 7 full time employees (55 - 48 = 7 employees)  to run a down hill ski area, cross country ski area, summer beach, summer concerts, and many other summer events.





skidbump said:


> I beleive that most were full time seasonal getting laid off and then brought back again as full time seasonal,keeping there 80% + hours to keep benefits.



As even skidbump admits, they aren't losing these employees.  So please stop making these ridiculous claims.  Those people are being transitioned to full-time season workers.  They still have jobs when they are needed, and Belleayre would still likely be overstaffed, considering they only have a 4-5 month season but are paying most employees for 10 months.


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## trapedui (Dec 28, 2010)

I just thought I would add one skier's perspective to this whole dialogue.  I certainly care about local jobs, taxpayer money and state vs private enterprise competition, but I will leave those issues for others to debate.

As a skier, I am thrilled that Belleayre is still open.  I am fairly certain that our family would not be a family of avid skiers if it were not for Belleayre.  We discovered Belleayre when we moved to the NYC suburbs in 2006.  Since then, we have probably skied a total of 30-35 days, almost exclusively at Belleayre.  Every year, we ski more frequently and this year, we made the plunge and rented a cabin and bought season passes.  Both of the girls will be in the Alpine Development Program for ten weeks. So starting this weekend, we plan to ski every weekend until mid-March. I can't remember the last time our whole family was as exicted as we are now.

My daughters are now 6 and 9.  They both learned to ski at Belleayre's KidsCamp.  And my wife learned to ski on Belleayre's ample selection of green trails.  I grew up skiiing at Elk Mountain (in PA), but had not skied much since I was a teenager until we started skiing Belleayre. Belleayre is not right for everyone, but it is perfect for my family.  As someone pointed out, there is not much to do there at night, but we have done many day trips and Uno and Yatzee are great for overnight stays. 

We always intend to try out other local mountains, but we keep coming back to what is comfortable.  We've skied Windham a couple times, but found it very crowded (on Potter Flex Days, when we went) and we had a hard time getting used to having sushi and valet parking at a ski mountain.  I guess it is a bit upscale for our tastes. I do look forward to skiing Hunter one day because the trail map looks great for me, but it would not be very good for my wife or the youngest.  Perhaps one day we will prefer Hunter (or Plattekill, which we haven't yet tried), but for now Belleayre is perfect for us. 

We had to commit to the cabin and the season passes in July, so it would have been a real bummer for us if Belleayre had not opened this year. I'm sure we would have received refunds for the season passes, but we would have been stuck with the cabin.  Obviously, our hardship would not have been comparable to the hardship of those who rely on the mountain to feed their families, but I am trying to focus on the skier's perspective.  As dmc wrote, we probably would not divert to Hunter or Windham if Belleayre closes.  It is more likely that we would try Catamount or Jiminy Peak.

In any event, we are very glad that we don't have to find another place to feed our growing addiction to skiiing. While I have only skied for free at Belleayre on my birthday, their discounts and affordable ski school were a big reason that we got into the sport.  I'm not sure if it is fair to NYS taxpayers or to competing mountains, but it works for us.


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## dmc (Dec 28, 2010)

My Dad just passed away last week...   He started me skiing..

And I keep thinking about how we used to go to Belleayre when I was learning.  And even after I started skiing Hunter I'd still take him to Belleayre.    He was happy with cruisers..  no interest in becoming a better skier - just loved being outside in the winter.


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## drjeff (Dec 28, 2010)

dmc said:


> My Dad just passed away last week...   He started me skiing..
> 
> And I keep thinking about how we used to go to Belleayre when I was learning.  And even after I started skiing Hunter I'd still take him to Belleayre.    He was happy with cruisers..  no interest in becoming a better skier - just loved being outside in the winter.



Condolence's DMC.  Being on the hill with family is a really cool thing!


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## catskills (Dec 28, 2010)

DMC I am sorry to hear about your father.  My condolences. Sounds like your dad was a cool guy.


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## lerops (Dec 29, 2010)

dmc said:


> My Dad just passed away last week...  He started me skiing..
> 
> And I keep thinking about how we used to go to Belleayre when I was learning. And even after I started skiing Hunter I'd still take him to Belleayre. He was happy with cruisers.. no interest in becoming a better skier - just loved being outside in the winter.


My condolences. It is great that you will always be doing something he started you.


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## dmc (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks all...

Point is..  Belleayre is a great place for families to go and learn to ski..


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## lerops (Dec 30, 2010)

On that note, I was at Bellayre today. I was thinking about how great it would be to ski there with my one-year old in a  few years.


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## goldsbar (Dec 31, 2010)

lerops said:


> On that note, I was at Bellayre today. I was thinking about how great it would be to ski there with my one-year old in a  few years.



They have a really good program for 4+ y/o.  Good in that my son has fun everytime which matters the most.  It lasts a good part of the day so you can ski while they learn.  I tried to teach my son myself... Now I pay the money!


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## kartski (Dec 31, 2010)

From a local paper. While I don't frequent Belleayre, I'm not against it. The State also owns Medical Centers and Hospitals that compete against Privately Owned Institutions, I'm not for closing them. 


http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101231/NEWS/12310360/-1/NEWS

By Adam Bosch
Times Herald-Record
Published: 2:00 AM - 12/31/10

HIGHMOUNT — A new management structure could insulate Belleayre Mountain from the volatile state budget.

That's according to lawmakers, regional policy groups and ski advocates who've talked about creating an authority to oversee the state-owned ski center.

This comes as some 45 workers are due to be laid off Friday at Belleayre. The layoffs are part of 140 job cuts at the state Department of Environmental Conservation and some 900 across all state agencies.

Belleayre supporters will protest the layoffs Friday at noon, near the entrance to the center.

State Sen. John Bonacic, R-C-Mount Hope, said he will ask incoming Gov. Andrew Cuomo to undo the Belleayre layoffs. If that doesn't work, he'll introduce a bill to create an authority to manage the center.

"This is our fall-back position if we can't reverse what (Gov. David) Paterson has done," Bonacic said, referring to the layoffs. "I think the people at Belleayre and their supporters would want to go to an authority."

Under an authority, Belleayre would be managed by an appointed commissioner and a board. While it could still receive state money, the ski center also would have to survive largely on whatever revenue it makes from lift tickets, concessions and other forms of income.

An authority also would prevent the state from sweeping Belleayre's profits into the general fund — a change that would preserve jobs, advocates said.

Whiteface Ski Center and Gore Mountain Ski Area, New York's other state-owned ski centers, operate under the Olympic Regional Development Authority. An authority was unsuccessfully pitched for Belleayre in the 1990s.

New York has some 700 authorities, including ones that oversee highways, bridges and local development groups.

Assemblyman Kevin Cahill, D-Kingston, said lawmakers have to analyze Belleayre's finances before moving toward an authority. He worried the ski center might pull in enough money to handle payroll, but its revenues could fall short for bigger items, like equipment repairs and upgrades.

"I'm very interested in the idea of an authority," Cahill said, "but we have to get past the hype, past the anger, past the emotion before we can get serious."

According to a recent report in the Albany Times-Union, Belleayre posted a $1 million operating loss last year, and lost $76,000 the year before that.

Advocates, including Joe Kelly of The Coalition to Save Belleayre, say the ski center breaks even.

Advocates said they're consulting lawyers and considering other management options, but they wouldn't share details. Any new plan for Belleayre must conform to the state constitution, which says the ski center cannot be sold or leased.

abosch@th-record.com


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## threecy (Jan 1, 2011)

kartski said:


> An authority also would prevent the state from sweeping Belleayre's profits into the general fund



Like that's really been an issue, according to what's been published here!


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## kartski (Jan 2, 2011)

http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2011/Jan/01/Belleayre_Rally-01Jan11.htm

"There is anger, there is disappointment,” Senator Bonacic said. “There are employees here that have worked their whole lives on this mountain, this is their life.” Bonacic pledged to bring all 32 Republican state senators to a meeting with new Governor Cuomo at the beginning of the year.

“This isn’t a partisan issue, this is a people issue,” said Ulster County Executive Michael Hein. “When I look out, I see families. When I look out I see people who are going to be negatively impacted, and generations of people that are going to be negatively impacted if this is allowed to stand. So when we talk about, ‘Don’t Mess with Belleayre’ we do it for a reason. Because we are fighting for a region, we are fighting for an idea, but most importantly we are fighting for people.”

Hinchey: Economic prosperity

Hein, along with Hinchey and others, pushed for over $8 million to pave roads in the region and Hein doesn’t believe in “bridges to nowhere”. Belleayre accounts for a significant portion of Ulster County’s $400 million tourism industry, according to the county exec."

"Several speakers mentioned the watershed agreement from 1997 where, in exchange for using local water for New York City, the state promised to aid with economic development for the region. Belleayre supporters have circulated petitions and gained nearly 4,000 signatures from people that are against job cuts on the mountain. "

If it were a private business, the $400 Million figure would be used to justify Tax Breaks and Financial Incentives to keep that pie from shrinking. Ulster County has a Republican dominated government and even they realize that those who have bought 2nd homes because  of the mountain will  want their property tax assessment lowered if it wasn't there. They look at it as spending a dime to make a dollar.


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## dmc (Feb 28, 2011)

i just heard from an acquaintance that said she was laid off as a ski instructor from Belleayre.
And it was due to another round of state layoffs...

Is this true?

Cause from what I read - Bell is doing great and is breaking attendance records...
http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2011/February/23/Belle_record-23Feb11.html


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