# Does the Ski Make a Difference?



## St. Bear (Dec 15, 2009)

Question for debate, how much of a difference does a good pair of skis make?  I firmly believe that a great skier can rip on anything, but what about an intermediate skier?  Would quality skies help him/her take that next step?

I'm 6' 230lbs and prefer to stay off the groomers as much as I can, depending on conditions of course.  I currently ski on a beginner/intermediate pair of Elans that I bought when I first got back into the sport because they were the cheapest pair at the store and I wasn't sure how much use I'd get out of them.  They're really easy to initiate turns on the hardpack, but are shaky at high speeds, and sink like a stone in anything more than a few inches of snow.

I'd like to get new skis after this season, but I'm wondering how much of a difference I would actually notice.


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## Puck it (Dec 15, 2009)

Get good boots first.  Then skis.  

Without good boots, good skis will not make a difference.  Yes, a more advanced ski will be a big difference for you over the softer intermediate ski that you have now for your size. BTW, never buy this years, always buy last years.


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## billski (Dec 15, 2009)

Go to a demo day. or two. or three.  Then you'll know. 
I demo'd a lot of skis and they all felt the same.  I'm sure some of it was me and my ability/skills.  Then one day I got on something that was like true love.  You'll know.

Some of it is ability, some is equipment.  I poo-poo'd various skis as gimicks for years.  Sure there are some gimmicks out there.  

For me, I found the need for a pair of great high-speed carving skis, and then some east-coast powder skis did the trick, once I mastered skiing skills.  Clearly affording a quiver ain't cheap; it took me years to get there, and when I did, I bought used demos.  Many ways to skin that cat.  I got some mid-fats after I got my carvers, hoping they would be good all-arounders, for those days when I mix it up.  They're OK, but nothing beats the carver and pow skis.    
All arounders are kinda like all season tires - snow and dry, they do an "ok" job at both, but never excel.  Maybe you won't notice a diff.  Take this season and demo as much as you can.


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## severine (Dec 15, 2009)

As someone who was introduced to the sport as an adult, I can tell you from experience that as I've progressed, I have noticed a difference in upgrading skis. There's no way I could possibly have advanced on the cheapo beginner skis I started with--first off, they were 140s and my main skis are now 165s.  Your needs change as you advance and take on different terrain--and a beginner/cheapo ski isn't necessarily designed for that purpose. 

There is a greater discussion on dampness/liveliness, stability, flex/stiffness, etc that one could get into, but I am just not well-versed enough to be the one to initiate that. These are the things that factor into the decision to upgrade, though. 

Do you *NEED* a different ski? A truly excellent skier likely does not. However, having the right tool for the job makes it easier.

And I agree--before thinking about skis, make sure your boots are set first. More important.


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## Warp Daddy (Dec 15, 2009)

i upgrade about every 3/4 yrs . Upgrading made a huge differance on hardpack  steeps for me and excel at mid  to long radius turns but  also are fine for short swinging . I'm currently  on Atomics that hold an edge at speed like no other ski 've had in 20 yrs .  I  ski mostly on groomed or what i call some Eastern pow ( normally groomed trails left ungroomed) bcuz of a nice dump They are able to handle both hardpack and boot deep pow 

However if i was into glades  or  deep pow i'd  favor a lighter/wider pr  that float better


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## drjeff (Dec 15, 2009)

True rippers are exactly that.  They'll handle anything on anything and make it look easy.  Many an expert can handle *most* stuff on 1 ski and make it look decent.  Below that,  I strongly think that while the ski can make a difference, many people in the beginner/intermediate ranks tend to buy too much ski with the intentions that they'll grow/learn into it and end up getting held back by it.

Bottomline, GOOD, well fitting boots is the #1 priority.  For ost folks then a modern, shaped mid-fat of the appropriate flex will cover their daily needs.  Then take the extra $$ that one might consider on getting an addtional pair(s) of niche specific skis and spend that $$ on lessons until you can handle just about everything on those mid-fats comfortably!


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## Greg (Dec 15, 2009)

Focus on the boots first as others have said. The most important piece of equipment. Anyway, yeah you will definitely notice a ski upgrade provided you've reached a certain skill level.


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## Sky (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm a late starter and I found that better skis helped.  TRUE...better properly fitted boots are key.

I bought an intermediate pair of Atomics back in 01 off the demo rack.  Made a huge improvement in my game.

Upgraded the boots the next year....better yet.

I upgraded the skis a few years later to a shorter more powerful ski which again made a big difference.

Up'd the boots from a 10 flex to an 11 flex last year....better fit.

Boots that fit...Demo some skis in the conditions you like to ski.  BAM!


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## Cannonball (Dec 15, 2009)

I would actually suggest something different from your original premise.  While it's true that a great skier can rip on anything, I also think that it's the great skier who notices the biggest differences in gear type.  When I was a beginner and intermediate skier I skied a lot of poor-quality skis.  But I had some much room for improvement and adjustment in my own abilities that I probably never really noticed a difference.  Or if there was a difference I wouldn't have been able to identify exactly what it was.  Now that I ski at an advanced level I very much notice subtleties of the gear.  Gear that is lacking can have a profoundly negative impact on my turns.

The fact that you are noticing specific deficiences in your skis (shaky at high speeds, sinking in fresh) means that you may be a bit more advanced than you give yourself credit for and would likely benefit from an upgrade.  Take the advice of others here....demo gear and start with the boots.


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## Mildcat (Dec 15, 2009)

I found that moving up to an advanced ski helped me improve. I got to a certain level on intermediate skis then plateaued. Stepping up to better skis I realized quickly that I couldn't get away with some of the bad habits that I had been getting away with on more forgiving skis. It sounds like you have outgrown those skis, you will definitely notice a big improvement with better skis.


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## riverc0il (Dec 15, 2009)

As an intermediate, I think a properly fit pair of boots and lessons will do more for your improvement than upgrading your skis. A beginner pair of skis or an expert pair of skis would hold a beginner back, no doubt. So the wrong ski can hurt you. But "upgrading" your ski will not really help if you don't have the technique to make the skis do anything differently than your current pair of skis. As long as you are not rocking beginner or lower intermediate skis, then you are not being held back by your skis but rather by technique. 

When I started racing, I went out and bought race skis. The skis improved my technique not one bit, my first day out on those skis I was just as bad. The coaches on the other hand got me to where I needed to be and I took it from there and at that point... then the right ski certainly helps.

Essentially, the better your technique, the more you will notice big differences between different skis. Which is ironic because a lot of people say that an expert can ski on anything. And to that I say whatever, I ski powder a lot better on my fat boards, I ski hard pack trees a lot better on my mid-fats, and I ski steep 50* stuff better on my skis with less sidecut and more beef. Can I rock out on any ski I want? Yea, sure. Does the right ski for the right job make it easier and more fun? You bet. Will an intermediate without the right technique notice? Not likely.

Though, when we buy skis that we think will help us improve.... their always is that tendency to believe the marketing hype and we psychologically, if unconsciously, have a hard time justifying to our thought centers that we just wasted $550.00 on a new pair of skis and binders for no reason....

Spend that money on a fitted pair of boots and a few lessons, then come back to the ski question. If you have to ask, the answer probably is no.


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## billski (Dec 15, 2009)

Mildcat said:


> I found that moving up to an advanced ski helped me improve. I got to a certain level on intermediate skis then plateaued. Stepping up to better skis I realized quickly that I couldn't get away with some of the bad habits that I had been getting away with on more forgiving skis. It sounds like you have outgrown those skis, you will definitely notice a big improvement with better skis.


 
For me, the plateaus were places where I either needed instruction or needed a lot more practice.

I found that I needed different equipment when I began complaining that I couldn't do this or that with my skis.


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## severine (Dec 16, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> As an intermediate, I think a properly fit pair of boots and lessons will do more for your improvement than upgrading your skis.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Spend that money on a fitted pair of boots and a few lessons, then come back to the ski question. If you have to ask, the answer probably is no.


There are people on this forum who have never taken a lesson, yet continue to advance thanks to skiing with people of better ability and/or research (including the founder of this forum). 

I'm not saying that lessons don't have their place because I have taken some in the past and I will in the future, as needed. But if you're not in the right place mentally to get anything out of them, they won't help you either. 

"Our eyes are holden and we cannot see things that stare us in the face; until the hour arrives when the mind is ripened,--then we behold them, and the time we saw them not, is like a dream." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson


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## drjeff (Dec 16, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> When I started racing, I went out and bought race skis. The skis improved my technique not one bit, my first day out on those skis I was just as bad. The coaches on the other hand got me to where I needed to be and I took it from there and at that point... then the right ski certainly helps.
> 
> .



This is sooo true about how a good instructor/coach can make such a difference.  This didn't really click with me until I was a 15 year old J2 out at the Mount Hood Summer Ski Camps.  First training run of the day/my 2 weeks there. Came down the GS course that we were skiing that morning.  Felt I had a pretty good run.  Got to the bottom, skied over to the coach who was at the time the head of the racing program at Squaw Valley, and he asked me what I thought of my run.  I told him basically "pretty good"  He then tells me to go back up and ski the same way but not scrunch my toes up as I was initiating my turns.  At first I'm like WTF??????  How can he tell that???????  Next run, just thinking about my toes, I was almost 3 seconds faster!  Good coaching and to get not just the basics, but also the smaller details that make a difference at higher levels (and that most folks probably don't realize about) will trump most any ski shape/flex


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## hammer (Dec 16, 2009)

severine said:


> There are people on this forum who have never taken a lesson, yet continue to advance thanks to skiing with people of better ability and/or research (including the founder of this forum).
> 
> I'm not saying that lessons don't have their place because I have taken some in the past and I will in the future, as needed. But if you're not in the right place mentally to get anything out of them, they won't help you either.
> 
> "Our eyes are holden and we cannot see things that stare us in the face; until the hour arrives when the mind is ripened,--then we behold them, and the time we saw them not, is like a dream." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson


I think lessons can be valuable, but there's only so much that one can learn in a 1 hour session, even a private.

As far as skis go, I did find that going with a stiffer mid fat helped in choppier snow conditions...but my technique issues are still getting in the way.

I'll echo others' comments about boots, improperly fitted boots (i/e/ too big) will hold anyone back.


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## Greg (Dec 16, 2009)

Also, another point - until you reach a certain skill level, you might not know how to identify the "right" ski for you because you haven't settled in on a specific preferred type of terrain. For example, investing in a high end race ski might hold you back if you then discover you prefer powder or bumps. With that said, look for a "do all" ski which we all know is not something that really exists, but you can usually get close with the ski probably only coming up short in one particular area.


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## snowmonster (Dec 16, 2009)

I was a never-ever not too long ago and I will basically echo what a lot of others have said: lessons help and well-fitting boots are more important than skis. I basically took three lessons when I was starting out then bought all these ski books on how to improve my technique. It's a matter of personal style. I like it when concepts are broken down in writing for me. It must be because of my academic background. When I ditched my old ill--fitting beginner boots in favor of "real" ones, the improvement was very noticeable. It was climbing out of a plateau. If you're going to get real boots though, make the investment and work with a good bootfitter to dial you in with footbeds and all. No use scrimping at this stage.

As for skis, my personal bias is to recommend fat (mid-90's underfoot and beyond) to mid-fat skis (in the 80's to mid-90's underfoot). Unless you're into racing, fatter skis work pretty well on the groomers and give you the option of not sinking when you go off-piste.

Happy hunting!


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## Marc (Dec 16, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Essentially, the better your technique, the more you will notice big differences between different skis. Which is ironic because a lot of people say that an expert can ski on anything. And to that I say whatever, I ski powder a lot better on my fat boards, I ski hard pack trees a lot better on my mid-fats, and I ski steep 50* stuff better on my skis with less sidecut and more beef. Can I rock out on any ski I want? Yea, sure. Does the right ski for the right job make it easier and more fun? You bet. Will an intermediate without the right technique notice? Not likely.



Quoted because it's the mo'fawkin truth.


Preach it to us, brotha RivCo!


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## MrAlaska (Dec 16, 2009)

St. Bear said:


> ... I'm 6' 230lbs ....


As a person of similar weight and height; I believe that makes a difference that is not considered as much as it could be. I have not done the math but a 230lb person doing an intermediate run at slower speeds might be puttting just as much bend on the ski as a 170lb expert ripping it up at higher speeds. It is my (totally unsubtantiated) opinion based on personal experience that a heavier person might benefit from a beefy 'expert' ski even when conditions and their experience might seem to indicate a softer ski would be appropriate. YMMV


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## riverc0il (Dec 16, 2009)

severine said:


> There are people on this forum who have never taken a lesson, yet continue to advance thanks to skiing with people of better ability and/or research (including the founder of this forum).


Most people that never take a lesson eventually plateau pretty hard. I know that from experience. And I see it everyday I ski. People do continue to get better... lots of days skiing and observing and skiing will always make you better in skiing. But it will never make you truly great.

Hell, I could use a refresher lesson myself. I know I have slipped into bad habits lately.

Given enough days, everyone improves. But it takes a long time to get there and those "breakthrough" moments won't come as quickly. Unlike the founder of this forum, most terminal intermediates are not putting in 30+ day seasons and bashing bumps at their local ski area when ever they can.


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## drjeff (Dec 17, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Most people that never take a lesson eventually plateau pretty hard. I know that from experience. And I see it everyday I ski. People do continue to get better... lots of days skiing and observing and skiing will always make you better in skiing. But it will never make you truly great.
> 
> Hell, I could use a refresher lesson myself. I know I have slipped into bad habits lately.
> 
> Given enough days, everyone improves. But it takes a long time to get there and those "breakthrough" moments won't come as quickly. Unlike the founder of this forum, most terminal intermediates are not putting in 30+ day seasons and bashing bumps at their local ski area when ever they can.



+1


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## KevinF (Dec 17, 2009)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet...  "Expert" skis (labeled so by the manufacturer or ski-review sites) in my experience tend to be much stiffer then the next ski down in the line.  If you routinely cruise at _mach schnell_ or are a heavier person, then stiffer skis have their place.

I consider myself to be a pretty good skier, 170 pounds, cruise at a medium speed or so, and the only thing "expert level" skis do for me is leave me exhausted at the end of the day because I can't bend the damn things.  I find myself happiest on intermediate / advanced level skis, and I pretty much go anywhere -- powder, groomers, bumps, it's all good.

A well-tuned pair of skis and some time invested in learning how to ski a nice round arc goes a _looonnnnggggggg _way into increasing the stability and holding power of a ski.  If you're making heel-pushing, over-rotated turns -- well, even race skis aren't going to hold on ice or feel stable at speed doing that.  If you're trying to make a round turn on dull edges -- it's not going to work.


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## drjeff (Dec 17, 2009)

KevinF said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet...  "Expert" skis (labeled so by the manufacturer or ski-review sites) in my experience tend to be much stiffer then the next ski down in the line.  If you routinely cruise at _mach schnell_ or are a heavier person, then stiffer skis have their place.
> 
> I consider myself to be a pretty good skier, 170 pounds, cruise at a medium speed or so, and the only thing "expert level" skis do for me is leave me exhausted at the end of the day because I can't bend the damn things.  I find myself happiest on intermediate / advanced level skis, and I pretty much go anywhere -- powder, groomers, bumps, it's all good.
> 
> A well-tuned pair of skis and some time invested in learning how to ski a nice round arc goes a _looonnnnggggggg _way into increasing the stability and holding power of a ski.  If you're making heel-pushing, over-rotated turns -- well, even race skis aren't going to hold on ice or feel stable at speed doing that.  If you're trying to make a round turn on dull edges -- it's not going to work.



The other thing that many people need to do nowadays when buying a new ski is to FORGET many of the preconceived notions that used to apply to old, long, skinny skis and stiffness.  With the construction/material advances and length, width and shape changes of a modern ski, you can get all the performance in terms of stability and edge grip on firm surfaces with a much softer ski (especially in the tip) than one could have imagined say 10-15 years ago.  It's not like it was back in the "golden age" of skinny skis when the salesperson at the shop would grab a ski by the tip with one hand and then push on the mid section with the ski and hardly have the thing flex at all and we'd all just stand back and nod our heads and say "Ooooooh" in amazement at how stiff it was


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## dmc (Dec 17, 2009)

Puck it said:


> Get good boots first.  Then skis.
> 
> Without good boots, good skis will not make a difference.  Yes, a more advanced ski will be a big difference for you over the softer intermediate ski that you have now for your size. BTW, never buy this years, always buy last years.




uh oh....

I totally agree...


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## HD333 (Dec 17, 2009)

Speaking of does the ski matter. I need some opinions.

I am in the market for a new set up.  After skiing for 20 years I gave up skiing 6/7 years ago and started snowboarding.  Now the kids ask why I don't ski so I am thinking of going 50/50.

When I stopped I would say I was a real good skier, comfortable anywhere but not a real fan of moguls.

That said  is the K2 Apache Recon to much of a ski for me?  I was thinking I would probably take a quick lesson to get back in the grove and be back in old form after a few days on the skis so I would buy a ski to match where I want to be if I am not already at that point. I am thinking of the 177, I am a big guy, 6 ft 220.

Anyone have experiance with these or other K2 Apache skis to share?

Thanks.
HD


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## Greg (Dec 17, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Unlike the founder of this forum, most terminal intermediates are not putting in 30+ day seasons and bashing bumps at their local ski area when ever they can.



Who you callin' a terminal intermediate...? :angry:


 :lol:


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## Sky (Dec 17, 2009)

HD333 said:


> I am thinking of the 177, I am a big guy, 6 ft 220.
> 
> Anyone have experiance with these or other K2 Apache skis to share?
> 
> ...



I demo'd Recons two or three years ago and loved them.  A pal demo'd them @ Loon last Mar (softer snow) and loved them.

Definitely demo and see what you think.

Atomic Crimson Ti's get a good review as well as Fischer Watea's.


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## HD333 (Dec 21, 2009)

Ordered last years Recons (177) from O2 Gearshop.  $550 with bindings.  Hopefully they arrive before New Years so I can take them up.

After years of boarding I may need to take a lesson to get back in the groove.

HD


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## bigbog (Dec 21, 2009)

St.Bear, a well-made ski will often be much more responsive from a skiboot's pressure via the bindings than would a beginner-level ski.  Construction and design...etc.  Of course, as said...in order for the skier's movements to get to the ski...the boot fit/performance is the initial link.  (Nothin' new from me)

$.01


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## thinnmann (Dec 21, 2009)

Get racing skis - SL and GS.  Get an all mtn ski with turned up tails and a wide bottom.  Get some rock skis you can clobber in the woods early and late season.  Get some groomer specific, ice specific, pow specific.  Get some bumpers.  Get some longer ones and get some shorter ones.  Switch them up depending on your mood for the day.  Don't ski the same ski two days in a row at the same mountain.  Switch them up depending on the snow.  Switch them up depending on whom you are skiing with.  That is how to have fun!  Thank you all you shops selling your demo stuff on eBay!  Thank you Craigslist!  Thank you free demo days at the MTN because I will never have this year's ski until 2012 - it will be a little beat up, but just as good and I won't have to lock it onto the ski rack.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Dec 22, 2009)

thinnmann said:


> Thank you all you shops selling your demo stuff on eBay!  Thank you Craigslist!  Thank you free demo days at the MTN because I will never have this year's ski until 2012 - it will be a little beat up, but just as good and I won't have to lock it onto the ski rack.



this years is so last year...I'm already skiing on next years.

and to answer the op, yes the ski makes a difference, ask anyone with a powder ski, ask anyone who skis on a race ski.  of course the skier makes a difference too but put the same skier, expert or otherwise, on different skis in the same conditions and you'll get different results.  Just take it to the obvious extreme, take a pro skier, put him in waist deep powder on slalom race skis, then powder skis...now repeat the process on a rock hard world cup slalom course.  It takes two to make a thing go right...ski and the skier.


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