# Here We Go Again.....



## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2009)

This 17-year old was planning on doing a 17 mile hike over all the Presi's before returning to Pinkham Notch base in one day.    He clearly had no idea what he was doing....and is still missing.  Crews are looking for him and have been since Sunday.  

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=10257100

Not sure if someone from the AMC advised him to reconsider.  

Hope he is OK but seriously folks please use some common sense before attempting things like this and putting rescuer's lives on the line.


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## skibum9995 (Apr 28, 2009)

Looks like this one turned out OK.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Missing+hiker+found+alive%2c+well+on+mountain+ridge&articleId=6aece36e-82d4-4c13-bfb0-f85a1b9f25b2


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2009)

skibum9995 said:


> Looks like this one turned out OK.
> 
> http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Missing+hiker+found+alive%2c+well+on+mountain+ridge&articleId=6aece36e-82d4-4c13-bfb0-f85a1b9f25b2



Wow...he made it as far as Mount Clay.  And he is going to be evaced by the MWO's snowcat.  That is going to cost him some coin.....


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## hammer (Apr 28, 2009)

And this kid is an Eagle scout with backpacking experience...which most likely made the difference between being recovered and being a statistic.

As a Life scout in my son's troop said, however, being an Eagle Scout doesn't automatically make you smart...:roll:

On a related note, we have a scout who is planning a 16 mile hike in the Presidentials this summer.  Is that something that can be realistically done in one day?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2009)

hammer said:


> And this kid is an Eagle scout with backpacking experience...which most likely made the difference between being recovered and being a statistic.
> 
> As a Life scout in my son's troop said, however, being an Eagle Scout doesn't automatically make you smart...:roll:
> 
> On a related note, we have a scout who is planning a 16 mile hike in the Presidentials this summer.  Is that something that can be realistically done in one day?



WHAT?  Where did you see that?  If that is true, as an Eagle Scout, I am embarrassed to see that one of my fellow Scouts was that dumb.  The weather and trail conditions were NOT safe for a 17-mile day hike.  In fact, that route requires more than a day and can be difficult even in the best of summer conditions.  

Glad he survived, but part of "Being Prepared" and having some good mountain instincts is to not get into a bad situation in the first place.  This guy was asking for trouble...unless he was uber prepared and willing to spend the night out in bad conditions. Doesn't sound like that.  

Oh...and I just saw you are planning a trip for your troop.  You sound like you have an AWESOME group.  My troop did LOTS of outdoors activities.  PM me for input on hiking in the Whites.


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## hammer (Apr 28, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> WHAT?  Where did you see that?  If that is true, as an Eagle Scout, I am embarrassed to see that one of my fellow Scouts was that dumb.  The weather and trail conditions were NOT safe for a 17-mile day hike.  In fact, that route requires more than a day and can be difficult even in the best of summer conditions



Here's a link to WMUR's web site article which mentions that he's an Eagle Scout.

http://www.wmur.com/news/19311072/detail.html



thetrailboss said:


> Oh...and I just saw you are planning a trip for your troop. You sound like you have an AWESOME group. My troop did LOTS of outdoors activities. PM me for input on hiking in the Whites.



Actually, I'm not planning this trip, one of the senior scouts is planning it, and I hope we get enough people who sign up.  He definitely has at least one adult who wouldn't mind going...:smile:


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## thetrailboss (Apr 28, 2009)

Having a "boy run" troop is a great thing, Hammer.


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## skibum9995 (Apr 28, 2009)

hammer said:


> On a related note, we have a scout who is planning a 16 mile hike in the Presidentials this summer.  Is that something that can be realistically done in one day?


A 16 mile day is definitely doable, as long as he is in reasonably good shape and starts early. The loop that this hiker attempted is one of my favorite day hikes in the Whites. It sounds like he didn't have much, if any, experience with winter hiking and bit off more than he could chew.


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## TheBEast (Apr 28, 2009)

hammer said:


> As a Life scout in my son's troop said, however, being an Eagle Scout doesn't automatically make you smart...:roll:



I got my Eagle Scout back in the ealy-90's and I saw way too many boys in my troop get their Eagle Scout who were not that smart, so just because you got the badge doesn't make you super human.  



hammer said:


> On a related note, we have a scout who is planning a 16 mile hike in the Presidentials this summer.  Is that something that can be realistically done in one day?



In my younger days myself, my brother, step-father and a family friend did the traverse with ideal conditions in 2 days during the summer.  I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND doing it in anything less than 2 days.  The 2nd day was not my best day I've ever spent in the mountains.  A Presi traverse is not something to take lightly, nor plan on doing in record time.


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## riverc0il (Apr 28, 2009)

skibum9995 said:


> A 16 mile day is definitely doable, as long as he is in reasonably good shape and starts early. The loop that this hiker attempted is one of my favorite day hikes in the Whites. It sounds like he didn't have much, if any, experience with winter hiking and bit off more than he could chew.


+1

This hike is reasonable even in winter conditions and I have seen reports from winter adventurers that were far more ambitious. If the hiker in question did not have much winter hiking experience above treeline, then that is a problem. But the article says the guy was prepared for an overnight and had winter survival skills. Probably would have been a good idea to have a partner on such an ambitious hike. But a many a respected hiker has completed similar winter routes. Seems like the big issues here were trying to take a shortcut without knowing the trail conditions and attempting this on a day when the valleys were scheduled to hit 90 (even with snow shoes, that suggests post hole city). This seems within acceptable risk if not the best laid plans for the conditions and short cut route options.


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## Mike P. (Apr 29, 2009)

Need a lot more info before we can really tell much.  Glad we had a happy ending.  That said since bbs's are great for Monday morning Quarterbacking..... 

Sounds like he was a strong hiker but a weaker planner.  Can this trip be done in a day, yes, in winter yes, will it take longer, most likely.  Actually it would have probably been better done in summer or winter than now.

Distance was brutal, combined with the elevation gain, that helped.  From what I read (I skimmed a few different places)  he was behind schedule & opted to descend the Six Hussbands trail.  THAT'S NOT an escape route unless your life is in danger if you stay on the ridge.  As far as we know he could have got to Madison & decided not to go down Madison Gulf trail & got as far back as the 6H & decided to descend there.  I skimmed over a comment about Avalanches, he may have heard that Mad Gulf's headwall could have been at risk.  I don't know if he had a headlamp & I did not see wind speeds for the weekend.  With mild weather, he would have been better staying on the ridge & walking down the auto road over descending 6H

IMO, he was looking at getting back to his car on time.  He had snowshoes but I don't believe he had a tent or bag.  Wasn't to cold unless he was on snow.   While some spots on the ridge may get cell reception, in the GG it is unlikely.

With the snow that was on the ground high up & the real warm temps, the streams were quickly filled & many became  impassable.  A big issue in the GG, several ways to descend the Northern Peaks towards Route 2 where it's not an issue (Valley Way, Randolph Path). Far from his car but he could have hitched or asked a motorist to call his home & tell his parents he was okay, just far from his car. 

They found him between Clay & Washington, apparently it took a few days to realize that best place to get out without stream crossings was back up top.

If heading out solo, you really need to have plan & possible escapes/detours well mapped & thought out, you can be slower, you just have to plan accordingly.  (I solo about 60% of the time including winter)  

Can a solo hiker to 16 miles in the Presidentials, sure, the traverse is 20 or more depending on where you start or end.  I did it in 2006 & hopefully next month also.  In 2006, started at 4:00 with a headlamp & got to C-Notch by 7:00.  Many people do it far faster than that.  

The 16 year old should know where to exit in case of bad weather (& when) at various points along the way. Some trails are far better for this than others.


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## hammer (Apr 30, 2009)

Mike P. said:


> Need a lot more info before we can really tell much.  Glad we had a happy ending.  That said since bbs's are great for Monday morning Quarterbacking.....
> 
> Sounds like he was a strong hiker but a weaker planner.  Can this trip be done in a day, yes, in winter yes, will it take longer, most likely.  Actually it would have probably been better done in summer or winter than now.
> 
> ...


Here's a follow-up...looks like the kid learned his basic lesson about hiking alone but otherwise it seems like he handled his situation quite well.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ne...randed_nh_hiker_brings_lesson_home_for_scouts


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2009)

Glad he is OK, but again, I was taught not to get stuck in situations like this in the first place....is it Monday Morning Quarterbacking?  No, I don't think so.  I think it's common sense.


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## kingdom-tele (Apr 30, 2009)

nothing ventured, nothing gained

at least he kept his cool, I've seen plenty of people in far less dire situations lose it, not bad for 17, hardest thing for anyone climbing to do is turn around when the timeline doesn't fit

and yes 16 miles is a day hike


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2009)

kingdom-tele said:


> nothing ventured, nothing gained
> 
> at least he kept his cool, I've seen plenty of people in far less dire situations lose it, not bad for 17, hardest thing for anyone climbing to do is turn around when the timeline doesn't fit
> 
> and yes 16 miles is a day hike



I've done 16 mile day hikes, but this route, with the vertical, exposure, and trail conditions was clearly too much.


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## kingdom-tele (Apr 30, 2009)

too much?  or not patient enough, one thing when the elements conspire to put you in danger, another when your timetable gets in the way and you start changing plans on the fly, but that is likely more experience, have enough "plans" shattered by all that the woods and mountains can throw at you = respect, patience, and planning

he lived, good enough, what else should we expect?


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## billski (May 12, 2009)

Mike P. said:


> If heading out solo, you really need to have plan & possible escapes/detours well mapped & thought out, you can be slower, you just have to plan accordingly.  (I solo about 60% of the time including winter)



Mike, you're spot on.  The times I've gotten nearly into trouble are those times when I headed out without having done sufficient planning.  Not just bringing a map, but studying it beforehand is important.  You don't want to be in the thick of things, with the sun setting while you sit and ponder a map.   

In most times when I've lost a trail (I do more and more bushwacking), I was able to quickly re-find it, or find an alternate route because I already had the terrain mapped in my mind and been a good observer on the way up.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 12, 2009)

darwinism at it's finest


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## Mike P. (May 15, 2009)

I have only skimmed the seemingly daily rescues. Since this trip, we've had skiers on Washington (Monroe), Baldface hikers, The Moosilauke trip from Craig's List  & another one  I know I'm missing, all  found safely. 

Water crossings this time of year was probably the biggest thing he overlooked.

I'm actually looking at a very similar trip myself  I'd guess that he is in better shape than me.  Thanks to his troubles, I'm pushing it back in the year though.  (park at PNVC, bike ride to GG, hike GG to Osgood & then Gulfside & down one of the Washington trails.)  To make up for the fitness, I'd start at first light.


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## hammer (Jul 17, 2009)

Looks like NH is going after the rescue costs on this one:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/20088488/detail.html


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## thetrailboss (Jul 17, 2009)

...as they should.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2009)

Another version of *the article.* 

As a fellow Eagle Scout, this is why I am critical of him:  



> But authorities say he wasn't prepared for the conditions he encountered and shouldn't have set out on such an ambitious hike.



He put other people's lives at risk.  

The fact that he sent the rescue agencies $1,000 means something.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2009)

The *Boston Newschannel Story and comments.*


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## hammer (Jul 21, 2009)

If he can't pay the $25K for the rescue then at least he should be required to read the following book (photo from the AMC store):







I also think he should give a presentation to his current/former Bay Scout troop on what to do and not to do on this type of outing.

And what about the Boy Scout motto? :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Jul 21, 2009)

hammer said:


> If he can't pay the $25K for the rescue then at least he should be required to read the following book (photo from the AMC store):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+ 1.  I think we should have a broader discussion about rescues and the cost....


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## hammer (Apr 9, 2010)

hammer said:


> Looks like NH is going after the rescue costs on this one:
> 
> http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/20088488/detail.html


And they have now dropped that:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/23099471/detail.html

I just hope he learned his lesson.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2010)

> At the time officials praised him for using his Boy Scout skills to stay alive, but criticized him for being unprepared for treacherous spring conditions.



Sounds like an oxymoron there.  The BSA motto is "Be Prepared."  He wasn't and was actually cocky about it.  He puts Eagle Scouts like me to shame.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 10, 2010)

Bump.  

Similar situation in this case:  http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=13475767#

An old guy dubbed "Poppa Neutrino" got some folks to help him build a homemade raft.  He, two of his friends, and three dogs set out on Lake Champlain yesterday in a Nor'Easter that made 6' waves on Lake Champlain to circumnavigate the globe.  :blink:  

They got into trouble on the rough waters and anchored their boat to ride out the weather.  Well, the line snapped and they were thrown into cliffs on the shoreline.  They called for help.  Watch the video.  Two firefighters repelled down a 30' cliff risking their lives for these guys.  The raft was destroyed but everyone is OK.  The rescue was dangerous, the fire department lost $3,000 of equipment in the rescue, including rescue ropes destroyed by leaking gasoline from the raft.  A slew of gas and trash are in the lake from the raft.  

So I ask you, should these folks have to pay for the rescue including the choppers and manhours spent saving them?


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## TheBEast (Nov 10, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.
> So I ask you, should these folks have to pay for the rescue including the choppers and manhours spent saving them?



They totally should pay.  What the F**K were they thinking?  Circumnavigate the world in a raft starting in Lake Champlain in November?  STUPIDITY AT ITS BEST!!


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2010)

What if someone with a 60K, 24 foot Searay had an engine die and they encountered the same situation washing up shore and having their boat get smashed on the rocks?

or even something more benign.  Their boat dies in the middle of the lake on a beautiful sunny day and the coast guard has to tow them in to the tune of a few hundred bucks.

There are boaters out there who can handle 6 foot chop better than novices can handle flat water.  There are hikers who can handle Mt. Everest better than others can handle a nature trail.

I don't like the idea of passing judgment on who should pay or who shouldn't.  Either everyone pays for rescues or no one pays.  I side with the latter.


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## TheBEast (Nov 10, 2010)

In my opinion this case (the boat one) is just pure recklessness.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2010)

On a similar note concerning 'sailing around the world';  I wonder if Abby Sunderland had to pay for her rescue?  Just because she was well trained and had stellar equipment doesn't change the results and cost of rescue.  She I'm sure cost the same, if not more to resuce due to the size of her boat than the Lake Champlain bozos would have cost had they reached the ocean and needed to be rescued.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2010)

TheBEast said:


> In my opinion this case (the boat one) is just pure recklessness.



and my argument is that it's not right to pass judgment because there isn't a pure defined line between recklessness and calculated risk.


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## riverc0il (Nov 10, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> and my argument is that it's not right to pass judgment because there isn't a pure defined line between recklessness and calculated risk.


I agree that caution is warranted when it comes to passing judgment on this types of events. It could only too easily be ourselves looking like the fool from someone else's arm chair someday. No one sets out to do something thinking "this is pretty reckless and I might be a candidate for a Darwin Award but..."

That said, even though there is no objective defined line between recklessness and calculated risk, there can be consensus of opinion from an overwhelming majority of people, particularly those that are most knowledgeable with calculated risks. 

To suggest you can't call something reckless because there is no defined objective line between reckless and calculated risk suggests that the word reckless has no place in our language because it can not be defined. Recklessness can be defined by overwhelming consensus of opinion, especially weighted by those most knowledgeable in the given field. 

All that said, I do this we need to be careful with what we label reckless. But the label should be trucked out so an example can be made of folks that are reckless so that perhaps others can learn and not get into a similar situation. Not to beat a dead horse, but no one goes about doing things thinking that they are being reckless. It is only through learning that judgmental reflex that many people keep themselves out of trouble.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 27, 2010)

A follow-up to the rafting story. Looks like they got the first bill for $2,400. More coming I'm sure since the raft is polluting Lake Champlain with gas.

http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=13743453


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## Nick (Mar 30, 2011)

thetrailboss said:


> This 17-year old was planning on doing a 17 mile hike over all the Presi's before returning to Pinkham Notch base in one day.    He clearly had no idea what he was doing....and is still missing.  Crews are looking for him and have been since Sunday.
> 
> http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=10257100
> 
> ...



Scary. I did my first (and only) president's peak hike in 2000. We went up Pinkham notch and spent the night there. The next day we hiked over Mt. Washington and continued over to Mt. Jefferson (I think?) We had intended to go further but started getting exhausted, so we cut down the Six Husband's trail (not expecting it to be so steep and camped overnight at the bottom of that. 

The next day we finished the walk back to Pinkham Notch. We were all completely, utterly wiped out from the hike, and in retrospect had probably gone further than we should have.


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