# Nissan Leaf EV



## Nick (Jul 25, 2011)

What do you guys think of this? 

My car (2003 Saab 9-3) is running up to 160,000 miles and my wife's 2002 Mitsubishi Lancer is at 120k. 

It's getting close to replacement time. I know this car would be horrible for anything further than a daily commute (since it has a range of like 90 miles) but it might be good for that. my wife could use it to go to work & back every day. 

I'm considering going to an SUV and then something smaller with better mileage. Particularly now that gas is up at $4 again. 

I also wonder if maintenance is cheaper in the long run, what with way less moving parts on an EV, or if the parts are so rare and the car is so uncommon it ends up costing just as much. 

Anyway, seems like a cool little vehicle, still in its infancy, I'm hardly a huge die-hard eco-head but I like the idea of saving $$ on gas and the tax incentives are definitely there to help out. Although I won't be taking it to Maine or New Hampshire skiing in the fall, that's for sure !


----------



## ctenidae (Jul 25, 2011)

I think it's still far too early to make any judgements on maintenance costs, but I would point to teh Prius, where the biggest ocncern was replacing the batteries. As it turns out, there's still nto much evidence on how bad it is to replace the packs, since they all seem to be lasting a lot longer than expected. So, there's that.

I'm considering a similar idea, couple a shroter range EV for my commute, and having a gas vehicle (or hybrid, depending on what's available and value), for longer range stuff. Friday and Saturday made me wonder, though- it took me over an hour to go 16 miles on Friday, with the car thermometer reading 110 the whole way. Would a Leaf have been able to manage that, with the AC running (no way you could just sit with the windows down in 110 degree stop and go traffic).


----------



## Nick (Jul 25, 2011)

Yeah, that's a really good point. It would absolutely suck to run out of electricity (haha). 

Although I read that they onboard computer has some sort of GPS inclusion that shows you the nearest charging stations. But still, then you sit there for 30 - 40 minutes waiting for the thing to quick charge.


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 25, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I think it's still far too early to make any judgements on maintenance costs, but I would point to teh Prius


This.

Check it:

50 MPG at 200,000 = 4000 Gallons * $4.00/Gallon = $16,000
100 MPG at 200,000 = 2000 Gallons * $4.00/Gallon = $8,000

Considering base prices, gas would need to go quite higher for the Leaf to be worth the premium considering the penalties you pay including range, unknown maintenance, and I would have to imagine less power and space. Don't forget that with a Leaf, you also need to buy a charger for home from what I understand. Also, consider that the above calculations assume you keep the car for a full 200k miles. If you don't, you don't stand a chance at making the Leaf a better financial option than the Prius.

EV needs to come down to near Prius levels and have more EV fuel up stations in metro areas before I think it becomes a good option. Right now, I think its target market is early adopters and those more concerned about decreasing their carbon footprint than prices.


----------



## Nick (Jul 25, 2011)

From what I've read it should be equivolent to like 150 - 200 miles per gallon. 

The in-house dock is about 2k but there are also gov't incentives. I thought I heard the whole thing would run about 27k after incentives. 

How much is a prius?

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Jul 25, 2011)

Don't forget that you still have to pay for the increased electric bills at home for charging the car.  How much?  I'm not sure, but it will cost something.
And yes you are now not burning gas, but you are still burning fossil fuels.  Where do you think that power out of the outlet comes from?  They are most likely burning fossil fuels at the power plant.


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 25, 2011)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Don't forget that you still have to pay for the increased electric bills at home for charging the car.  How much?  I'm not sure, but it will cost something.
> And yes you are now not burning gas, but you are still burning fossil fuels.  Where do you think that power out of the outlet comes from?  They are most likely burning fossil fuels at the power plant.


This is all irrelevent. Electric at home will cost less than the pump. And home electricity may come from fossil fuels but less of it. Those are reasons for EV, not against.

Is the government still doing tax breaks? Must just be for EV if they are, I know hybrid and diesel tax breaks are done.  Prius starts at $23.5k bare with a CVT. Took until the 3rd Gen for the Prius to be a solid choice without issues. Looking forward to seeing what happens with EV in a few years. Seems like a bad buy right now to me even with all the incentives considering the car's limitations and potential expensive risks (repairs).


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jul 26, 2011)

Nissan   pegs the incentive @ "up to$7500", but RIV is on target w/the economics

Full Description:**
A tax credit of up to $7,500 is allowed for the purchase of a new qualified plug‐in electric drive motor vehicle that
is placed in service.**An amount of $2,500 is allowed per vehicle.**An additional $417 is allowed for the first 5
kilowatt hours of capacity plus $417 for every kilowatt hour of capacity over 5 kilowatt hours, up to a total of
$5,000.**
A New Qualified Plug‐In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle mean a vehicle that’s original use begins with the taxpayer, is
acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, not resale, is made by a manufacturer, has a gross weight of less than
14,000 pounds, and is propelled to a significant extent by an electric motor that draws electricity from a battery.


----------



## Glenn (Jul 26, 2011)

Given the limited range of the Leaf, and the lack of charging stations, it's more of a third car you use for short jaunts. At that point, you could get yourself a pretty nice used third car that would be more fun to drive. I can't see anyone outside of an urban area using this as their primarly vehicle. 

I like the concept of electric cars, I just think they have a long way to go. Buy hey, you have to start somewhere. The biggest hurdle is range. The Leaf claims 100 miles, but that's probably under ideal conditions. Throw in some hills, cold weather, A/C-heat and that range drops quite a bit. 

The other is charging stations. One thing that's great about gasoline and diesel cars: You can go from a fairly empty tank (a few miles range) to a full tank(hundreds of miles of range) in a matter of minutes, just by filling the tank. How this will work with electric remains to me seen. 110v charging stations will take all day or night. 220v is a bit better. 480v will probably do the trick...but it will still probably take longer than your average fillup. I heard MIT is working on batteries where you can change the "fluid"; so a charge would be very similar to a fillup. 

Right now, it's pretty economical to charge an EV at home. But I wonder what will happen as these become more popular. So now you have millions of cars charging at the same time. Will these stress the grid? Will "off peak" rates suddenly become "peak"? I just picture a similar situation  to what happens on hot days...when everyone is cranking the A/C/


----------



## Warp Daddy (Jul 26, 2011)

Glenn u r on target  : EPA rates real range as 73 miles , the 100 mile was achieved in LAB environment under optimum conditions


----------



## o3jeff (Jul 26, 2011)

Warp Daddy said:


> Glenn u r on target  : EPA rates real range as 73 miles , the 100 mile was achieved in LAB environment under optimum conditions



I'm sure it will be like anything else with a rechargeable battery, after regular use and recharging the battery, they never seem to last as long when it was new.

Why don't they put some type of alternator on it?


----------



## bvibert (Jul 26, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Right now, it's pretty economical to charge an EV at home. But I wonder what will happen as these become more popular. So now you have millions of cars charging at the same time. Will these stress the grid? Will "off peak" rates suddenly become "peak"? I just picture a similar situation  to what happens on hot days...when everyone is cranking the A/C/



I was wondering the same thing.  It's fine now that there's very few out there, but I worry about what will happen to electricity rates and production ability if they really catch on.


----------



## bvibert (Jul 26, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> Why don't they put some type of alternator on it?



You mean like a perpetual motion machine?  It would take more energy for the drive motor to spin the alternator than you'd get back out of it.

Regenerative brakes could certainly help charge the batteries though.  I'd imagine that's already being used though??


----------



## o3jeff (Jul 26, 2011)

bvibert said:


> You mean like a perpetual motion machine?  It would take more energy for the drive motor to spin the alternator than you'd get back out of it.
> 
> Regenerative brakes could certainly help charge the batteries though.  I'd imagine that's already being used though??



I was thinking that too.....:idea:


----------



## Nick (Jul 26, 2011)

Glenn said:


> Given the limited range of the Leaf, and the lack of charging stations, it's more of a third car you use for short jaunts. At that point, you could get yourself a pretty nice used third car that would be more fun to drive. I can't see anyone outside of an urban area using this as their primarly vehicle.
> 
> I like the concept of electric cars, I just think they have a long way to go. Buy hey, you have to start somewhere. The biggest hurdle is range. The Leaf claims 100 miles, but that's probably under ideal conditions. Throw in some hills, cold weather, A/C-heat and that range drops quite a bit.
> 
> ...



Some good points Glenn. 

The other thing I saw earlier bout the EPA 75 mpg. Does that mean equivalency? So if a gallon costs $3.75 it means for $3.75 worth of electricity you could ride 75 miles? That's only incrementally better in that case. 

Anyways, It was just an idea I was tossing around, what you guys are saying makes sense. I'm excited to see where this goes though in the next few years. It would be cool to have a fully electric vehicle, especially if it could save on maintenance down the road (no pun intended).


----------



## Glenn (Jul 26, 2011)

I personally think it'll be awhile before everyone is driving electric cars. Our current infrastucture is setup for gasoline/diesel. Setting up charging stations probably isn't that hard, but the back end support "the grid" is what will need some work. Plus all that other stuff I mentioned. All in time I'm sure. 

Another thing to consider. When you buy gasoline, you pay taxes on it. That's (supposed) to pay for road improvements. How will that be handled if charging? 

I think the gasoline engine has a lot of shelf life left in it. We're seeing straight, non hybrid gasoline cars that get 40mpg right now. It's amazing what they've done with direct injection and turbo charging over the past few years.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 26, 2011)

Glenn said:


> I personally think it'll be awhile before everyone is driving electric cars. Our current infrastucture is setup for gasoline/diesel. Setting up charging stations probably isn't that hard, but the back end support "the grid" is what will need some work. Plus all that other stuff I mentioned. All in time I'm sure.
> 
> Another thing to consider. When you buy gasoline, you pay taxes on it. That's (supposed) to pay for road improvements. How will that be handled if charging?
> 
> I think the gasoline engine has a lot of shelf life left in it. We're seeing straight, non hybrid gasoline cars that get 40mpg right now. It's amazing what they've done with direct injection and turbo charging over the past few years.



Let's also not forgot that the government itself(often federal and in some cases state and local too), in the form of tax credits has also been doing/does a fair bunch of subsidizing the cost of a hybrid/all electric vehicle.  And how will the do market wise against their totally fossil fueled powered cousins when and if the government removes these subsidies??   That also remains to be seen


----------



## hammer (Jul 26, 2011)

bvibert said:


> I was wondering the same thing.  It's fine now that there's very few out there, but I worry about what will happen to electricity rates and production ability if they really catch on.


Also, while the electric cars won't be polluting the air, a number of the power plants will be...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jul 26, 2011)

hammer said:


> Also, while the electric cars won't be polluting the air, a number of the power plants will be...



Don't worry, all these wind farms they're building up here on the mountains of VT will be used to generate the electricity for EV cars in Southern New England.


----------



## ctenidae (Jul 26, 2011)

hammer said:


> Also, while the electric cars won't be polluting the air, a number of the power plants will be...



Not nearly as much as individual cars do. Efficiency in scale, you know. "Power plants pollute the air" is not a valid argument against electric cars. Carbon footprints of the manufacturing, mining, and materials that go into them, on the other hand, could be.

Death of the gas tax could also be a powerful point against. What is the actual cost of the tax credit, if you factor in all the un-bought gasoline?


----------



## hammer (Jul 26, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> Not nearly as much as individual cars do. Efficiency in scale, you know. "Power plants pollute the air" is not a valid argument against electric cars. Carbon footprints of the manufacturing, mining, and materials that go into them, on the other hand, could be.
> 
> Death of the gas tax could also be a powerful point against. What is the actual cost of the tax credit, if you factor in all the un-bought gasoline?


Not making any argument against electric cars, just making the point that electric cars are not really "zero-emissions"...


----------



## ctenidae (Jul 26, 2011)

hammer said:


> Not making any argument against electric cars, just making the point that electric cars are not really "zero-emissions"...



Good enough. Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you, I just hear that comment a lot, generally as a reason why electric cars are stupid. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of reasons electric cars are stupid, that's just not realy one of them.

/there are a lot of reasons they're smart, too, btw


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Jul 26, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> This is all irrelevent. Electric at home will cost less than the pump. And home electricity may come from fossil fuels but less of it. Those are reasons for EV, not against.



It is not irrelevant.  The cars still require the fossil fuels to be burned, just not in the car, and people do not factor in their increased electric bills with the car.  

I dont have anything against a electric car, but have heard many people say how they are fossil fuel free, and they never mention the charging.  At this point in time a EV would never work for me.  I have to drive to much for work, and I doubt that car will pull my lawn mower trailers very well.


----------



## Cannonball (Jul 26, 2011)

Hawkshot99 said:


> It is not irrelevant.  The cars still require the fossil fuels to be burned, just not in the car, and people do not factor in their increased electric bills with the car.
> 
> I dont have anything against a electric car, but have heard many people say how they are fossil fuel free, and they never mention the charging.  At this point in time a EV would never work for me.  I have to drive to much for work, and I doubt that car will pull my lawn mower trailers very well.



Probably very true.  But I but your truck could pull trailers full of electric mowers.  And I bet you actually could put a dent in both emissions and fuel cost at that level.  Start small.


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 26, 2011)

Hawkshot99 said:


> It is not irrelevant.  The cars still require the fossil fuels to be burned, just not in the car, and people do not factor in their increased electric bills with the car.
> 
> I dont have anything against a electric car, but have heard many people say how they are fossil fuel free, and they never mention the charging.  At this point in time a EV would never work for me.  I have to drive to much for work, and I doubt that car will pull my lawn mower trailers very well.


No one in this thread suggested that EVs are fossil fuel free which is why I suggested your comments were not relevant. I don't think that should be a consideration when considering an EV except perhaps that EVs do in fact use less fossil fuel than other engine types. I just don't see the point in bringing it up unless someone is claiming otherwise or perhaps has been somehow mislead.


----------

