# Driving in the snow



## uphillklimber (Jan 14, 2008)

x


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## dmc (Jan 14, 2008)

People are afraid to drive in snow..   People have to work and deal with life...

Asking them to drive faster in bad conditions is unfair... Asking them to pull over and potentially go off the road is unfair and dangerous..


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 14, 2008)

uphillklimber said:


> Here's my question: Am I out of line by wanting slowpokes to pull over and let the line of cars behind them pass? Your thoughts please.



Absolutly not out of line.  If you do not have the "skills" to drive in snow, do not hold up people who do.



uphillklimber said:


> Also, if there are any police officers or rescue personel who work in the snow regions, what are their thoughts? For example, while slow drivers like this are frustraing, are they curse or blessing to them. Do they cause tailgating accidents, or do they slow everyone down so much that there is never an accident?
> 
> _____________________________



On a legal standpoint of speed...The speed limit is at optimal conditions.

I would think that having the one slow person would cause more accidents.  Being stuck behind super slow people makes me very angry.  usually I am fine, and just sit there.  But it would not surprise me if many people go for the questionable pass to get around the slow person.  Either passing too close to oncoming traffic, or just not safe to have 2 cars next to each other.


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## dmc (Jan 14, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Absolutly not out of line.  If you do not have the "skills" to drive in snow, do not hold up people who do.



With all due respect - who the hell are you to say who has skills and who doesn't?


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 14, 2008)

dmc said:


> With all due respect - who the hell are you to say who has skills and who doesn't?



I am not saying who does and who doesnt.  I am saying if you are driving super slow when their is no need then let others pass.


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## ckofer (Jan 14, 2008)

Some times you can't do anything about the situation but relax. Make sure you've got 3 or 4 seconds between you and the next guy. Slow drivers don't cause tailgating accidents-following too closely does. Some people are just uncertain in snow and that's that.


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## dmc (Jan 14, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I am not saying who does and who doesnt.  I am saying if you are driving super slow when their is no need then let others pass.



And I'm saying when weathers bad and you have to hit the road(and many people have no choice).  Pulling over into a unplowed snow is potentially dangerous...  

Thats what people are afraid of..  The piles of snow and having to leave a lane..


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## JimG. (Jan 14, 2008)

Asking people to go to work when conditions are unsafe or stressful is unfair.

And while pressuring folks who drive at a snail's pace in the snow is unsafe and poor manners, I think the best place for people who are that afraid of the snow is at home that day.


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## dmc (Jan 14, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Asking people to go to work when conditions are unsafe or stressful is unfair.
> 
> And while pressuring folks who drive at a snail's pace in the snow is unsafe and poor manners, I think the best place for people who are that afraid of the snow is at home that day.



Thats easy to say for us that have that option...  But some people have no choice except to show up to work to pay the bills...    

So asking someone to not work and lose money so you can get to the slopes earlier is just bad...


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## Paul (Jan 14, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Asking people to go to work when conditions are unsafe or stressful is unfair.
> 
> And while pressuring folks who drive at a snail's pace in the snow is unsafe and poor manners, I think the best place for people who are that afraid of the snow is at home that day.



Yes but it happens. Life ain't fair. I work for AT&T, 90% of the humiliation they put me through is "unfair" But it pays the bills...



dmc said:


> Thats easy to say for us that have that option...  But some people have no choice except to show up to work to pay the bills...
> 
> So asking someone to not work and lose money so you can get to the slopes earlier is just bad...



Agree


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## BeanoNYC (Jan 14, 2008)

Meh....I try to take advantage when someone ahead of me is driving slow in the snow.  It's an excuse to slow down.  I tend to pick up speed when no one is in front of me.  I try to be cognizant of the nervousness of the driver in front of me and give him/her room.  After all, I can't drive everyone's car for them.


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## JimG. (Jan 14, 2008)

dmc said:


> Thats easy to say for us that have that option...  But some people have no choice except to show up to work to pay the bills...
> 
> So asking someone to not work and lose money so you can get to the slopes earlier is just bad...



I don't disagree with your logic and I'm not trying to debate you...

BUT

Driving in that emotional state is dangerous to your own well being. And being that scared invariably leads to an accident. That gets expensive and counterproductive to meeting expenses. If it's bad enough or some idiot (no offense uphillklimber) plows into you it could be fatal. And you can't pay the bills if you're dead.

I think it's horrible and pitiful that people are so scared of their bosses or their bills that they would take that chance.


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## riverc0il (Jan 14, 2008)

I see both sides of the argument and would propose this: those that are afraid of the conditions and driving generally slower than almost all other drivers should pull over and let traffic pass when they feel it is safe to do so. Unfortunately, this is usually not the case on the highway because when it is unsafe to pass due to the passing lane not being plowed, then the breakdown lane is likely even worse and is not safe. Getting off at an exit is the next safest way to allow folks to pass, but who wants to do that if they have some place to go? No right answer here, IMO. The best answer is that people who are uncomfortable with snow driving should stay open. Period. Take a vacation day. And if the boss doesn't understand then maybe you are working for the wrong employer. As the boss of my location, I told all employees this morning to only come in if they felt safe doing so. There are more important things than today's to-do list when people feel unsafe driving.


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## Marc (Jan 14, 2008)

uphillklimber said:


> Also, if there are any police officers or rescue personel who work in the snow regions, what are their thoughts? For example, while slow drivers like this are frustraing, are they curse or blessing to them. Do they cause tailgating accidents, or do they slow everyone down so much that there is never an accident?



Typically, since one arrives on scene after the collision has occurred, it's tough to tell.

Point of order though, the slow driver does not cause the tailgating accident unless they cut someone off.  Tailgating accidents are the fault of the tailgater.

While I sometimes wish I could pull around slower people, someone on my ass, especially if they're driving a big heavy vehicle with a soft suspension, worries me much more because I'm not in control (and most of the time I'm driving about as fast as conditions will permit).

I also think a slow person with a line of traffic behind them stretching out to the horizon is inconsiderate, provided there is a safe place to pull over, if the do not use it and let other people pass.

In my experience though, the majority of the accidents I go to in foul weather are single car accidents, usually SUV's, usually with drivers who have no clue how to read their vehicle and pay no attention to any feedback, or are unaware how important good tires are in the snow.  And oddly enough, most are middle aged and younger.  I think the elderly mostly stay home in weather like this.


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## dmc (Jan 14, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Driving in that emotional state is dangerous to your own well being. And being that scared invariably leads to an accident.



driving slow in snow <> emotional state

It just means people are driving slow - maybe being overly cautious or nervous of the conditions...  Not emotional...  Seems to me the people wanting to pass are more driven by emotion..


So - how about people that drive up to ski in bad weather with infants or kids in the car?


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## tirolerpeter (Jan 14, 2008)

*Slow in Snow*

I always own vehicles that are well balanced in terms of power and handling.   And...I put REAL snow tires on all four wheels of all my vehicles (We are down to two at the moment).  Added to that, my wife and I always own manual trans vehicles which (assuming you have the skills and experience) we find far more competent in slippery conditions.   I don't want nervous/inexperienced drivers to drive any faster than they are comfortable when on snow.  I also realize that "pulling over" is often not an option on some roads.  

What  P.O's me is when they actually fail to stay in their lane  on a multi-laned roadway (usually the most clear and well traveled) when I attempt to go around them.  I have no trouble maintaining control on most snow covered roads.  I can't even count the times when I have had a clear shot at passing some terrified driver and just as I move out to go around them, they actually come over and crowd the lane I am using.  Some years ago I was following my wife driving ahead of me on a snowy 4 lane divided highway.  There was a real "creeper" hogging the clear right lane at slow speed.  As my wife began her move to pass in the lane on the left, the driver cut over, actually putting two wheels over the center line onto the snow packed lane my wife was about to pass on.  She reflexively braked and spun off onto the shoulder.  Fortunately, it ended in a snowbank with minimal damage.  Needless to say, the Schmuck just kept on driving with no regard for what he/she had done.  That is the kind of bad weather behavior I find intolerable.


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## roark (Jan 14, 2008)

I feel the same way. The part of CA I'm from actually has signs stating that you must pull over to permit passing and has many marked turnouts. Police will ticket you if you have more than 12 cars behind you. Most of the tourists still don't get it, but they drive so slow (or even stop in the middle of the road!) that passing is easy even on curvy (much curvier than anything I've encountered in New England) roads. Speed limits here seem ridiculously slow in comparison as well. But yet I see more accidents. Yes, there is a higher population density but still!

Courtesy and a degree of common sense is lacking in many northeast drivers. I'm constantly perplexed by drivers that will stop on a city street to allow someone to pull out from a shopping center (a hazardous yielding of ROW) but will literally force you onto the shoulder when trying to merge onto a highway. It's common behavior on northern CA two lane highways to pull over for _anyone_ who catches you, and I never really thought about merging onto the highway much until I moved here. Stopping in a yield lane is another oddity to me. I'm used to alternating. Doesn't happen here!

Coming home from Pat's tonight I passed  4 cars. All were going well below the speed limit. The roads were completely clear of snow. One so slow I didn't even bother to wait for a marked passing lane.  They were obviously perturbed and gave me the strobe light treatment. Some of you probably think I'm overly aggressive but it was simply easier and probably safer to just not slow down.


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## snoseek (Jan 14, 2008)

Helps to brew a nice big cup of coffee and leave the house when it's still dark. I also opt to take secondary roads, as there is less chance of running into problems.


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## riverc0il (Jan 15, 2008)

Yes, there is absolutely no excuse for not pulling over when plowed out gas stations are available. My comments regarding it being hard to pull over were more directed towards interstates. If you have more than a dozen or so cars that rode up behind you and you started with none, that should tell you something. I have pulled over before, not even when it was snowing, to allow traffic to pass because folks did not want to drive the speed limit. Personally, I am surprised folks would not pull over to allow traffic to pass because I can not stand people driving up my rear being impatient.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

uphillklimber said:


> But there are many gas stations and businesses along the roads that they could pull over into.



Which you assume are plowed as well...


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Personally, I am surprised folks would not pull over to allow traffic to pass because I can not stand people driving up my rear being impatient.



If I'm doing the speed limit and weather is sketchy.... Screw them.  let them wait in the line.

I'm sick of these impatient SUV drivers headed to VT - tail gaiting on the Thruway..   And usually they are the ones in the ditch....


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## Kerovick (Jan 15, 2008)

Being from Maryland, I haven't had the opportunity that some of you have had to perfect my snow driving skills.  That being said, being a skier I'm not afraid of driving in the snow in the least but will drive at a pace that I feel is safe.  If it is to slow for the person behind me I will pull over if a safe opportunity provides itself and I'll also stop to pull them out of the ditch (I drive a Jeep) after they run of the road into a snow bank a mile further down the road (true story).  If you’re behind me and you think I'm driving to slow in bad weather and I can't or choose not to pull over to let you by... get over it.  My safety and that of the people in my vehicle are my responsibility and that is much more important than you getting first chair.

-K


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## Greg (Jan 15, 2008)

Getting caught behind someone driving too slow is frustrating, but there's very little you can do about it...

What really gets me is when someone puts on their hazards when the roads are tricky. Yeah, thanks jackass, like I need *you *to tell me the roads are bad. That's more distracting than it is helpful.


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## hiroto (Jan 15, 2008)

uphillklimber said:


> As far as pulling over, I understand the shoulders are not plowed and that just isn't safe. But there are many gas stations and businesses along the roads that they could pull over into. Which by the way, I actually see some drivers do. And typically, it is an older, gray haired gentleman who does this. Not always, but typically. It ain't like no one has never done it before.



One good place to pull over is under the bridge.  Nice and clear space without snow, if you are lucky to have one over the road you happened to be driving on.


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## hiroto (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> I'm sick of these impatient SUV drivers headed to VT - tail gaiting on the Thruway..   And usually they are the ones in the ditch....



It was so funny it really happened to me once long long time ago.  I was driving up to ski mountain with my friend and a four wheeler tail gated behind us.  Eventually it managed to pass us and disappeared.  Shortly after we passed the same truck which was stuck deep in the ditch :wink:


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## tjf67 (Jan 15, 2008)

As I get older I seem to drive slower.  Someday i will probably be that person holding up the line.  I will if it is safe pull over and let them pass.  It is just as frustrating for the person with the tailgater on there ass as it is for the tailgater that wants to get by.


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## loafer89 (Jan 15, 2008)

I had a limited amount of driving on actual snow yesterday. Basically I-84 was clear except torward the M.A border where the two left lanes where snow covered. I had the car in cruise control at 70mph and would yield the middle lane where it was clear to the mostly out of state yahoo's going 80mph +

The side roads to Wachusett where snowpacked and traffic was at the speed limit or a bit less (35mph) with a speed limit of 40-45mph.


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## snoseek (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> If I'm doing the speed limit and weather is sketchy.... Screw them.  let them wait in the line.
> 
> I'm sick of these impatient SUV drivers headed to VT - tail gaiting on the Thruway..   And usually they are the ones in the ditch....



You have a point here. It is very selfish to put others at danger because your late or whatever reason. Also you don't see a lot of small cars flipped on the side of the road-almost always SUV- it's not the SUV its the driver. I do think the drivers that are going slower than everyone else should pull off but if they don't, drivers should show some patience instead of tailgaiting. This is all a real problem in the Northeast that goes much deeper than the weather.


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## danny p (Jan 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> ...What really gets me is when someone puts on their hazards when the roads are tricky. Yeah, thanks jackass, like I need *you *to tell me the roads are bad. That's more distracting than it is helpful.



someone who has their flashers on doesn't necessarily mean they are telling you the road is "tricky".  It could be an indicator that this person's car isn't performing well in the snow, they are inexperienced driving in the snow, or it might be an indicator saying pass me as soon as possible, I know I'm going slow.  Just my $0.02.  I've put my flashers on when I see a car/suv approaching dangerously fast behind me.  Sorry if I distracted anyone.  ;-)


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## billski (Jan 15, 2008)

*Good Manners and relativity*

I think everyone has good points.  It points out to me the general decline in civil behavior over the past 30 years.  It's every man for himself now.

When I learned to drive, there was an even older generation on the road:  People who learned to drive on Model T's and remember horses pulling snow plows.  That generation always drove a lot slower, they were not accustomed to speed.  It was common to see people driving 45 or 50 on the Interstate in the 1960s.   Over the years, people have busied their lives to a point that they feel they must go fast to squeeze all the events into their lives.  55 now becomes the minimum.  My daughter even complained last week about how "slow" (25mph) I was driving on our residential dead-end street filled with playing children.  Fast has now become the norm.

Studies have shown that many people's behavior changes when they get behind the wheel.  They are more aggressive, hostile and impatient.  It's that huge metal mass that is their weapon.  The impersonal nature of vehicles permits things you would never do face to face.

Good Manners are in sharp decline.  When I learned to drive, it was expected that you would pull over (or if safe, slow down and wave with your hand to pass) to allow others to pass, especially a line of cars would be behind, or in the mountain narrow roads, or where you knew there would be no passing opportunities for a long time.  The the quid-pro-quo was that the overtakers would always show a good courtesy "thank you" such as flashing lights, or waving.

Unfortunately, overtakers have become rude and attempt to bully people into going faster by tailgating.  This just escalates the issue and the slower driver thinks to self "to hell with you, you drive badly and rudely?  You'll just follow me."  I've even caught myself doing this on a bad day.  When the overtaker finally gets the chance, s/he passes, often unsafely and oftentimes flips the finger.  Talk about combative behavior.  Both sides share the blame.  I don't understand why people can't learn to tolerate the differences in each other.   

I get some slight satisfaction when on occasion a driver exhibiting such bad driving courtesies passes me, and then a few miles up the road I see him/her off in the ditch.  I am hopeful that they are unhurt, but the hassle and damage caused will be a lesson learned.  

Sadly even when hothead drivers finally settle down, there is always another generation right behind them doing the same stupid things all over again.


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## loafer89 (Jan 15, 2008)

Driving in Connecticut and Massachusetts is a very different experience than I am used to in when living in New York State as tailgating is a huge problem. Many times, especially in bad weather I have another car 10' or less behind me, even going the speed limit.

I detest tailgating, it is extremely dangerous. Usually I would just speed up to give myself more space, but often times now with my son in the car I will sometimes pull over or find a slower lane of trafic if possible.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

snoseek said:


> Also you don't see a lot of small cars flipped on the side of the road-almost always SUV- it's not the SUV its the driver. I do think the drivers that are going slower than everyone else should pull off but if they don't, drivers should show some patience instead of tailgaiting. This is all a real problem in the Northeast that goes much deeper than the weather.



In Colorado it gets crazy too....
People get off a plane from Texas or  - rent an SUV to drive 70 to ski...  Snow storm... They have NO idea how to drive...


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## cbcbd (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> People are afraid to drive in snow..   People have to work and deal with life...
> 
> Asking them to drive faster in bad conditions is unfair... Asking them to pull over and potentially go off the road is unfair and dangerous..


I agree. 

I understand your frustration as I'm also one who's passing slowpokes and plows on the highway. But, asking folks who are being extra cautious and slow to pull over - meaning that they have to leave the tracks and go into the untracked highway - is just dangerous. They are doing what they need to be doing to stay on the road and not go flying off into a guardrail. 

Like I said, I understand the frustration and get frustrated... but you just gotta pass them on the untracked left lane yourself if time is an issue - I pass on the untracked left lanes all the time... it sure is exciting


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## billski (Jan 15, 2008)

cbcbd said:


> I agree.
> 
> I understand your frustration as I'm also one who's passing slowpokes and plows on the highway. But, asking folks who are being extra cautious and slow to pull over - meaning that they have to leave the tracks and go into the untracked highway - is just dangerous. They are doing what they need to be doing to stay on the road and not go flying off into a guardrail.
> 
> Like I said, I understand the frustration and get frustrated... but you just gotta pass them on the untracked left lane yourself if time is an issue - I pass on the untracked left lanes all the time... it sure is exciting



There is another protocol that seems to be long-forgotten.  Here's how it works. The slowpoke rolls down his window and waves to pass but at the same time decelerates by taking his/her  foot off the gas (but NOT  stepping on the brakes.)  Slowpoke remains in his/her lane.        Pokey then continues to slow until all the cars have passed, then resumes a comfortable speed.  My mother used this method for years.  Reminder to the over-taker, pull back in only after a safe distance (emergency stopping distance) and wave after  you've passed him/her to say "thanks!"

This method was usually prefaced by a single light flash by the car who wants to overtake (tailing at a safe distance of course), which puts the play in motion.

This method works well and is safe, but takes the coordinated thinking of both parties.  Works for all weather situations.  It doesn't every require the slowpoke to leave their comfort-zone.

These are the kinds of civility we are missing on the roads today.


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## cbcbd (Jan 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> What really gets me is when someone puts on their hazards when the roads are tricky. Yeah, thanks jackass, like I need *you *to tell me the roads are bad. That's more distracting than it is helpful.


Lol, Greg... 
I usually equate hazards with "there's something wrong with my car", or "it's a whiteout and I'm just helping you see me through all this stuff"... The other night I was behind a car during the snow... there was another car way up ahead with his hazards on...whatever. The car in front of me ALSO turns his hazards on... visibility was great and the road conditions didn't change... I was a little confused and just passed both.




billski said:


> There is another protocol that seems to be long-forgotten.  Here's how it works. The slowpoke rolls down his window and waves to pass but at the same time decelerates by taking his/her  foot off the gas (but NOT  stepping on the brakes.)      Pokey then continues to slow until all the cars have passed, then resumes a comfortable speed.  My mother used this method for years.  Reminder to the over-taker, pull back in only after a safe distance (emergency stopping distance) and wave after  you've passed him/her to say "thanks!"
> 
> This method works well and is safe, but takes the coordinated thinking of both parties.  Works for all weather situations.  It doesn't every require the slowpoke to leave their comfort-zone.


I think there is just a lack of communication while driving in the US. Go to European and LA countries - a lot more waving and beeping used for communication.


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## billski (Jan 15, 2008)

cbcbd said:


> Lol, Greg...
> I usually equate hazards with "there's something wrong with my car", or "it's a whiteout and I'm just helping you see me through all this stuff"... The other night I was behind a car during the snow... there was another car way up ahead with his hazards on...whatever. The car in front of me ALSO turns his hazards on... visibility was great and the road conditions didn't change... I was a little confused and just passed both.
> 
> 
> ...



That's a great point. Without communications, we are left to our own devices to interpret a movement.  4-way flashers is a good example.  I can think of several reasons why they might be on; people are left guessing or assuming incorrectly then getting TO'd perhaps thinking it's something combative or obnoxious.


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## billski (Jan 15, 2008)

*Hijack!*



roark said:


> I feel the same way.



HIJACK!  CONGRATS ROARK ON HITTING THE 1000 MARK!  

Take the day off and go skiing/boarding.  Tell your boss I gave the OK! ;-)


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## snoseek (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> In Colorado it gets crazy too....
> People get off a plane from Texas or  - rent an SUV to drive 70 to ski...  Snow storm... They have NO idea how to drive...



I know-i'm leaving in five min. to drive 70, it's possibly the worst road to go skiing i've ever experienced. Overall the driving out here is much better, 70 is the Big exception though-thank god for frontage roads.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I know-i'm leaving in five min. to drive 70, it's possibly the worst road to go skiing i've ever experienced. Overall the driving out here is much better, 70 is the Big exception though-thank god for frontage roads.



No doubt.... I've bailed off 70 before too...   
People come flying out of the tunnel and hit the slop...


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

billski said:


> There is another protocol that seems to be long-forgotten.  Here's how it works. The slowpoke rolls down his window and waves to pass but at the same time decelerates by taking his/her  foot off the gas (but NOT  stepping on the brakes.)  Slowpoke remains in his/her lane.        Pokey then continues to slow until all the cars have passed, then resumes a comfortable speed.  My mother used this method for years.  Reminder to the over-taker, pull back in only after a safe distance (emergency stopping distance) and wave after  you've passed him/her to say "thanks!"
> 
> This method was usually prefaced by a single light flash by the car who wants to overtake (tailing at a safe distance of course), which puts the play in motion.
> 
> ...




Nice - but I aint sticking my hand out the window during a snowstorm.... thats why i got EZPass...


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## layla17 (Jan 15, 2008)

That' s a great approach billski.  I haven't seen that executed in awhile, but it sure would be a great way to avoid road rage and tailgating accidents.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> Nice - but I aint sticking my hand out the window during a snowstorm.... thats why i got EZPass...



So basically, you wont pull over, you wont slow down and wave them by.  Basically you refuse to be put out in the slightest way, and be kind to others.....


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> So basically, you wont pull over, you wont slow down and wave them by.  Basically you refuse to be put out in the slightest way, and be kind to others.....



So - your saying in bad weather - when you really need to have both hands on the wheel...
these people MUST roll their windows down and then stick their hand out far enough for YOU to see while driving in a snowstorm... With snow and slush pouring into the car covering the people in the backseat... 

ummm...  Sounds like your being the unkind one here...

I actually drive fast in snow..  This isn't about me..    I like it when people slow down and put their flashers on during a long stretch of road so I can pass...  Otherwise i sit and wait patiently with enough distance between the 2 cars...


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## billski (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> So - your saying in bad weather - when you really need to have both hands on the wheel...
> these people MUST roll their windows down and then stick their hand out far enough for YOU to see while driving in a snowstorm... With snow and slush pouring into the car covering the people in the backseat...
> 
> ummm...  Sounds like your being the unkind one here...
> ...



Hmm.....you'll spend all day outside boarding in bad weather but won't roll down your window??   Sounds like we're getting a little too comfortable these days.  I still recall rolling down the window and scraping the windshield while driving, because it was more dangerous to stop.  We always took one hand off the wheels to stick shift during a storm.... rather stick my hand out than be in a more dangerous situation caused by a tailgater....  I don't even have window cranks anymore.  

Anyways this technique is applicable in all seasons not just winter.  btw,  I never covered anyone in the back seat when rolling down windows.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

billski said:


> Hmm.....you'll spend all day outside boarding in bad weather but won't roll down your window??   Sounds like we're getting a little too comfortable these days.  I still recall rolling down the window and scraping the windshield while driving, because it was more dangerous to stop.  We always took one hand off the wheels to stick shift during a storm.... rather stick my hand out than be in a more dangerous situation caused by a tailgater....  I don't even have window cranks anymore.
> 
> Anyways this technique is applicable in all seasons not just winter.  btw,  I never covered anyone in the back seat when rolling down windows.



Well - what can i say... i take care of my car so i don't have to stick my head out the window like I did when I was a kid..   I'm getting older so yes - i enjoy being comfortable..

when I board I am covered in Gortex...  In the car i wear substantially less...

We could debate this all day - 
An 80 year old lady who HAS to get to the doctor or pharmacy...  or a nurse who HAS to be at the hospital...  Or a mother who needs to pick up her kids..    These people may not be hard core mountaineers... Or even have long arms..

they just want to make it from point A to Point B without some "Type A" jerk tailgating them in a driving snowstorm cause he's rushing for first gondi at Killington....


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## JimG. (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> driving slow in snow <> emotional state
> 
> It just means people are driving slow - maybe being overly cautious or nervous of the conditions...  Not emotional...  Seems to me the people wanting to pass are more driven by emotion..
> 
> ...



All I'm saying is there is slow, which most rational people have no trouble dealing with, and there is SLOW which is the realm of the overstressed or scared person. And Murphy's Law of course puts the irrational "I gotta get going" person behind them. And that's really dangerous for everyone in the vicinity.

If I knew I was going to be that scared when I drove, I'd stay home.


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## JimG. (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> If I'm doing the speed limit and weather is sketchy.... Screw them.  let them wait in the line.
> 
> I'm sick of these impatient SUV drivers headed to VT - tail gaiting on the Thruway..   And usually they are the ones in the ditch....



Dude, you are funny.

You would probably leave me in the dust if it was snowing hard and you were doing the speed limit.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

JimG. said:


> If I knew I was going to be that scared when I drove, I'd stay home.



Good that you have the choice...  Some don't...  Going skiing is a choice...


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Dude, you are funny.
> 
> You would probably leave me in the dust if it was snowing hard and you were doing the speed limit.



Damn straight - I love driving in snow...


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

uphillklimber said:


> Hey lighten up a little DMC. I'm driving right by them and can plainly see that they are plowed.



Can they? 
Is visibility NEVER an issue during a snowstorm?  

I think it is...


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## JimG. (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> Good that you have the choice...  Some don't...  Going skiing is a choice...



Driving in snow doesn't bother me a bit. Doing it to go skiing is just logical.

But if I knew going would scare the piss out of me I would stay home.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

uphillklimber said:


> But as a general rule, it is plainly visible that there are places to safely pull over.



General rules can be heuristic traps... 
Pulling over in snow in unknown territory can be dangerous...  Just because you think something is safe doesn't mean it is..

So it's OK for people to risk going into a ditch so someone can save 10 minutes??!?


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Driving in snow doesn't bother me a bit. Doing it to go skiing is just logical.
> 
> But if I knew going would scare the piss out of me I would stay home.




\My point is... Some do not have the choice...  Not everyone has comfy middle class jobs...  Some people only get paid if they work and "type A" drivers up their asses is what probably makes them feel nervous...


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## riverc0il (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> when I board I am covered in Gortex...  In the car i wear substantially less...


I respect your position and all DMC, but what you wear or don't wear in the car is none of my business and certainly a bit too much information for this thread.


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I respect your position and all DMC, but what you wear or don't wear in the car is none of my business and certainly a bit too much information for this thread.




What - zebra print thongs aren't your cup of tea?  How about Gortex thongs?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> With all due respect - who the hell are you to say who has skills and who doesn't?



Lay off the Haterade Dougie


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Lay off the Haterade Dougie



It's not hate dude...  It's pot stirring... 

Makes for goooooooooooood internet..  and passes the time while I create horribly boring documentation ..


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## riverc0il (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> What - zebra print thongs aren't your cup of tea?  How about Gortex thongs?


Whether they are my thing or not is completely irrelevant... just is not appropriate for online discourse in such a civilized and well mannered forum. This is britishteasipping.com, right?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> It's not hate dude...  It's pot stirring...
> 
> Makes for goooooooooooood internet..  and passes the time while I create horribly boring documentation ..





Right on..yeah the illegal aliens who clean rooms and work at the Taco Bell in Jackson Wyoming mostly live over in Idaho and commute over Teton Pass in Hyundai accents with 13 inch spinners every morning..they need to get to work in the snow and the people in Escalades and Suburbans have to sit behind them going 22mph..lol


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Whether they are my thing or not is completely irrelevant... just is not appropriate for online discourse in such a civilized and well mannered forum. This is britishteasipping.com, right?



Pinky finger out my good man... pinky out...


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## dmc (Jan 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Right on..yeah the illegal aliens who clean rooms and work at the Taco Bell in Jackson Wyoming mostly live over in Idaho and commute over Teton Pass in Hyundai accents with 13 inch spinners every morning..they need to get to work in the snow and the people in Escalades and Suburbans have to sit behind them going 22mph..lol



Driggs?


Will they pick you up when your skiing over there?


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## ckofer (Jan 15, 2008)

_*Jeezum*_, once in a while we all get stuck behind slow drivers and there's *nothing* we can do about it. Tailgating surely doesn't help. It's not every trip, every day. Honestly, if it's getting you that upset, *you *should get off the highway for a minute or two. In the big picture, there are more important things than driving as fast as you'd like. Like skiing as fast as you'd like. Now that's another story.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jan 15, 2008)

dmc said:


> Driggs?
> 
> 
> Will they pick you up when your skiing over there?





Some live as far away as Tetonia which is north of Driggs..


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## amf (Jan 16, 2008)

roark said:


> I feel the same way. The part of CA I'm from actually has signs stating that you must pull over to permit passing and has many marked turnouts. Police will ticket you if you have more than 12 cars behind you.



As I recall Washington has a similar law... signs regularly say if there are more than 5 vehicles behind you, you need to let them by.


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## BeanoNYC (Jan 16, 2008)

This is why I fly my chopper to the ski resorts.


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## JimG. (Jan 16, 2008)

dmc said:


> \My point is... Some do not have the choice...  Not everyone has comfy middle class jobs...  Some people only get paid if they work and "type A" drivers up their asses is what probably makes them feel nervous...



I guess my point is that there are always choices.


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## dmc (Jan 17, 2008)

JimG. said:


> I guess my point is that there are always choices.



Sure - we're humans with free will...  We can kill ourselves if we feel like it..  It's our choice..  

But when it comes to paying bills...  feeding families.... paying mortgages or rent...  And if you don't get paid unless you work...

Your going to risk it..  And if it means you gotta drive slow cause you can't afford AWD or new tires...  

Sometimes people just make bad choices too...


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## Paul (Jan 17, 2008)

dmc said:


> Sure - we're humans with free will...  We can kill ourselves if we feel like it..  It's our choice..
> 
> But when it comes to paying bills...  feeding families.... paying mortgages or rent...  And if you don't get paid unless you work...
> 
> ...



Or even the choice ends-up simply being the lesser of two evils. Sometimes you're just damned if you do, and damned if you don't.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 17, 2008)

somedays you eat the bear, and somedays the bear eats you....


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## ckofer (Jan 17, 2008)

Paul said:


> Or even the choice ends-up simply being the lesser of two evils. Sometimes you're just damned if you do, and damned if you don't.



I thought it was damned if you do, bored if you don't.


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## Paul (Jan 18, 2008)

ckofer said:


> I thought it was damned if you do, bored if you don't.



Good point!



Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug...


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 18, 2008)

Paul said:


> Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug...



Sometimes your the Louisville Slugger, sometimes your the ball.


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## dmc (Jan 18, 2008)

Funny..
my mom used to say "sometimes your the cat - sometimes your the rat"


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