# places to go backcountry winter hiking in the north east



## llawhsoj (Nov 2, 2004)

Hey there everyone, I'm looking for a place to go winter camping/hiking in the north east this winter.  I haven't done any winter backcountry(though plenty of time in related fields, as in winter and backcountry) and am looking for places to go.  I'm looking for a 3-5 day stint, would love to get some peaks in, and some great views and ideally some isolation(though i'd be intersted in doing washington which would throw that out the window, eh?)  Anyway where should I go, what should I do?  I'm open for anything really what's your favorite winter locations?    I'd like to make my first voyage into winter camping memorable.  Also I should say, that although its my first time winter camping, I'm not looking to do something tame, not incredibly gnarly either, but something that's a moderate challange and a great experience.  Enough rambling, about this, I need to get back to work (don't tell my boss I'm here).  Hope you all are doing well, and I look forward to your advice.
  -joshwall


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## Mike P. (Nov 4, 2004)

1st winter backcountry camping trip, hmmm.  I'm not a winter camper & depending on what you get for feedback, I'd consider posting on the the AMC's boards at www.outdoors.org.

Do a fair amount of winter hiking with some winter campers.  I'd be tempted to say you really ought to do a one night trip first before planning a 3-5 day trip in the Presidentials.  

People debate on what kind of boots you need for winter hiking & opinion is all over the place but for winter camping, almost everyone swears by double boots, either plastic or Sorel types.  You can rent plastics in North Conway at IME, EMS & I think Ragged.  If peakbagging on the Presidentials plastics are a heavy favorite & crampons & snowshoes for any trip off the beaten trails (several are well traveled) are a must.  Most places you won't need an ice axe but a trip up Washington is thought by many as being one of the few in NH that it really helps on.  Some in ADK's would require one too.

Thinking one night first is good idea to get idea on how your gear works, is your bag rated cold enough, is the way you plan on keeping water warm old enough.

That said, the only real place you can camp on Washington is in Tuckerman Ravine at Hermit Lake.  Above treeline requires at least two feet of snow cover & hard core gear & skills, not a location for a first timer.  With all the traffic in the ravine, it's not backcountry but it's not a real long walk out if you need to bail early.  

Where do you live?  Can you get in a cold night camping close to home?  Do you have a 4 season tent & a zero or below bag? 

AMC also runs Lonesome Lake, Carter Notch & Zealand Falls Hut all year round.  These all require at least a mile walk, several for Zealand.


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## JimG. (Nov 4, 2004)

I agree with Mike that you should plan on spending a night at the Hermit Lake (Hojo's) lean-to's to see what winter camping is all about before venturing forth on a long trip. I've met people who were training for Denali at the lean-to's, so it is a legitimate area to see what true winter alpine conditions are like. My avatar is a pic taken at shelter# 2 at Hojo's in late April of 2002. We arrived at Hermit Lake that day wearing shorts and tee's and skiing was on soft, sweet corn snow. Temps were in the 60's and everything was green. By the end of dinner at about 5:30pm the temp had dropped to the mid-20's and by bedtime there were 4" of snow on the ground. By morning, temps were in the single digits with fierce wind and blowing snow that had accumulated upwards of 10". Skiing on day 2 was pow on top of boilerplate. Quite a change and this is quite normal for this area, so be prepared. The old saying goes, "If you don't like the weather on Mt. Washington, wait 10 minutes".


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## dmc (Nov 4, 2004)

JimG in the shelter..

The Rest Of The PIX from an Awesome TUX Trip


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## JimG. (Nov 4, 2004)

Wow, these pics are from the next spring in 2003...I got quite a sunburn skiing didn't I? It didn't snow that April but it did get cold at night. I of course remember having my back stiffen up from hauling 65lbs. up the Ravine trail. I missed the spring 2004 trip because I had to work :angry: but I'm stoked for the 2005 trip  !!


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## dmc (Nov 4, 2004)

SORRY... HERE'S THE PIX FROM THE PREVIOUS YEAR


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## JimG. (Nov 4, 2004)

Ha! I was just going to post that pic myself...that was so hilarious when we built that "wall" of snowboards and whatever in an effort to keep the snow from blowing in on us. It beat having to wake up and sweep the snow off of our bags!


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## thetrailboss (Nov 4, 2004)

llawhsoj said:
			
		

> Hey there everyone, I'm looking for a place to go winter camping/hiking in the north east this winter.  I haven't done any winter backcountry(though plenty of time in related fields, as in winter and backcountry) and am looking for places to go.  I'm looking for a 3-5 day stint, would love to get some peaks in, and some great views and ideally some isolation(though i'd be intersted in doing washington which would throw that out the window, eh?)  Anyway where should I go, what should I do?  I'm open for anything really what's your favorite winter locations?    I'd like to make my first voyage into winter camping memorable.  Also I should say, that although its my first time winter camping, I'm not looking to do something tame, not incredibly gnarly either, but something that's a moderate challange and a great experience.  Enough rambling, about this, I need to get back to work (don't tell my boss I'm here).  Hope you all are doing well, and I look forward to your advice.
> -joshwall



I'd say before going for a long term trip, try camping out for a night for a "dry run" of sorts and to work out any bugs.   Scout motto:  "Be prepared." 

The Presidentials are downright dangerous in winter.


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## dmc (Nov 4, 2004)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> The Presidentials are downright dangerous in winter.



And in the spring as well!!!


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## JimG. (Nov 4, 2004)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> The Presidentials are downright dangerous in winter.



You're right on the money about that...I've never been there any earlier than April and you can see what the conditions are like then. DMC has been there in early March and might have a few hair raising tales to tell.


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## dmc (Nov 4, 2004)

JimG. said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's really cold...  really really cold... and windy...


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## TeleGrrrl (Nov 4, 2004)

Maybe you should consider an organized hike  with the AMC to get your feet wet, so to speak. I did that in 1999, my first winter hike. We camped two nights at Gentian Pond and summitted Mount Success. It was -20 most of the time. I was glad  iwas with more experienced people.  

tg


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## Mike P. (Nov 4, 2004)

Josh,

let us know what you have for gear & some winter hiking you've done, I read your post as saying no winter camping but have camped & have skied or hiked in winter, yes or no?

The Presi's can be fun in winter as long as you keep an eye out for ever changing weather & get down before it hits.  The Southern peaks while still deadly in bad weather, IMO are a little more forgiving, the trees are closer, Edmands, Mt.EIsenhowr Trail, Webster Cliff & C-Path more friendly than the Gulfside, KRT, Castle Ravine or Castle & almost no one does the 6H trail in winter.

I would definietly do a dry run for an overnight in the Catskills on a cold night first (Josh in NY)  Catskills & ADKs offer great trips too.


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## llawhsoj (Nov 4, 2004)

*more about myself*

I've spent plenty of time outdoors during all seasons.  I worked at a camping in northern michigan full time for a while, working outside 12-14 hours a day with temps down to -30.  I also grew up around there, as did my cohort.  So I'm not that worried about cold, though I don't have a 0 bag, but I'm thinking about renting one from EMS if they rent them.  I have a four season(largest reason for going on the trip) and am thinking about doing an warm up, of sorts.  However, I'm a grad. student, which saps way to much of my time.  I live in New York, with no car, but I think getting out for a day would be good, if I can find that time I want to do it.
   Anyway, I've also guided spring-fall two seasons in the midwest.  I have a good sense of weather and concerns, not that worried about that honestly, though at the same time I'm always worried about that, just because in my experience its the thing that's always the biggest risk.  I don't take unnecessary risks, though I will challange myself, but there is a stong sense of where fun ends and risk begins to rise.  So I'm not that worried about that.  What does EMS rent up there anyone know?  I've got the basics of the winter gear but there are some things I need to fill out, and need to do it as cheap as possible, which probably means renting and I'm ok with that.
  What else should I clarify?  Does that give a more accurate picture?  Its not as if I'm a newbie into the outdoors realm (far from it) but I am a newbie into the specifics of winter camping/hiking.  Anyway, does that help?  I don't want people to think I odn't know what's going on, just never had any friends who did winter stuff.
  Any recomendations on where to start and end?  Anything I should be aware of that isn't standard fare within backpacking proper?  Thanks for the advice, and concern I appreciate it.  Its always good to look out for each other, looking forward to hearing from you more.


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## llawhsoj (Nov 4, 2004)

*gear I've got*

Pretty much everything, in regards to clothes, need more hardware, bag, crampons, snowshoes... but that's a being limited due to budgetary constraints....stupid being a student.
  -joshwall


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## JimG. (Nov 5, 2004)

I think Telegrrrl has the best idea for you...go on an AMC sponsored trip. You will spend a few days out in the elements and you will learn what gear you will need. My first camping trip to Tucks I brought alot I didn't need and didn't have things I really needed, but I was with an experienced group and I could fill in and get by. You do not want to go and find out you are missing something you need and have no way to get it. Example: I had no crampons. Who needs crampons in spring weather on a mostly snow free trail? Well, after 10" of snow and frigid temps, I really missed those crampons hiking back down with 65lbs. on my back on a snowy and icy trail. A few hair-raising slides down steep pitches at accelerating speeds followed by arm-flailing wipeouts got me to buy those crampons quick, and now I seem to use them every hike/ski trip for some reason or another. 

Put your understandable desire for isolation on hold and get with a group and learn from experience what you will/might need before venturing forth alone.


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## Mike P. (Nov 5, 2004)

AMC does do winter skills courses, some of it may be new to you, some old, talking to the instructor would get you an idea if you could skip first class.  These tend to be pricy.

Clothing beyond what you may had from No MI, Neoprene facemask?  Goggles, plastic boots (Sorels okay for lower winter camping, some people have used them higher too but for my piece of mind, Plastics or new double leathers are the way to go.)  crampons & snowshoes are a must, I'm 99% sure you can rent all three at EMS IME or Ragged, call the N. Conway stores to double check, I'm not absolutely sure on the crampons.  For winter pants, IMO Full zip legs on fleece pants & Shell pants are a must as you don't want to be in situation above treeline where you have to take off crampons or snowshoes to get extra pants on, some 12" may not allow plastic boots through either  (Some friends of mine have pictures of me wearing my pant legs from my convertible pants around my ankles  like 80's leg warmers since they would not go over my plastic boots - it was a warm late winter day) 

If possible & I believe you can do it on the AMC website, check to see if one of the NY chapters have an early winter overnight trip planned for the Catskills.  Learning from people who do these trips would be good idea if price of skills course is high, trips up Wittenberg, Cornell & Slide or Devil's Path may very well require some crampon usage.

I would think one of the EMS NY stores rent snowshoes & bags, if not near you, maybe in stores further north.  I suspect there may be a similar type store in New Paltz area too since that area is a hot bed for climbing, an on-line search of outdoor retailers in New Paltz or Poughkeepsie should find them.  

For the price of a night in a Hostel, I guess instead of learning more about how to use my stove in winter conditions & finding like minded souls (okay, I have some of those I could do winter camping with but my wife would thinbk I'm even more nuts) I prefer winter day hiking.  I arrive in Gorham the night before, have someone else cook a hot meal, maybe a beer or two & a comfy warm bed then get a 6:00 start & take out breakfast without having to pack up my tent, bag, stove etc,.


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## desalad (Nov 16, 2004)

*Try Diamond Notch in the Catskills*

Hey, I spent two nights at the Diamond Notch lean too in the Catskills. We bagged West Kill Mountain (3997') our first day, Hunter Mtn (4050) the second day, and hiked out the third. We did not pack tents, we slept in our bags, on thermarests, in the lean too. It was COLD. We went MLK weekend in January of this year. I highly recommend renting a -20 bag if you can get it. Otherwise a 0 bag (maybe with a liner) should be okay unless the temps dip below zero. 

We used snowshoes, up above 3500' the snow got deep. These were definitely challenging climbs. The diamond notch lean too is the first in a counter clockwise loop if you wanted to spend two nights at different lean toos. There are three lean toos on the loop. Let me know if you want more info, I can get the trail names and everything from home. I planned the trip using the AMC Catskills book. I believe we followed Devils Path to the summit of West Kill, heading west, and Devils Path east to Hunter Mtn Trail, or something like that.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2004)

*Re: more about myself*



			
				llawhsoj said:
			
		

> I've spent plenty of time outdoors during all seasons.  I worked at a camping in northern michigan full time for a while, working outside 12-14 hours a day with temps down to -30.  I also grew up around there, as did my cohort.  So I'm not that worried about cold, though I don't have a 0 bag, but I'm thinking about renting one from EMS if they rent them.  I have a four season(largest reason for going on the trip) and am thinking about doing an warm up, of sorts.  However, I'm a grad. student, which saps way to much of my time.  I live in New York, with no car, but I think getting out for a day would be good, if I can find that time I want to do it.
> Anyway, I've also guided spring-fall two seasons in the midwest.  I have a good sense of weather and concerns, not that worried about that honestly, though at the same time I'm always worried about that, just because in my experience its the thing that's always the biggest risk.  I don't take unnecessary risks, though I will challange myself, but there is a stong sense of where fun ends and risk begins to rise.  So I'm not that worried about that.  What does EMS rent up there anyone know?  I've got the basics of the winter gear but there are some things I need to fill out, and need to do it as cheap as possible, which probably means renting and I'm ok with that.
> What else should I clarify?  Does that give a more accurate picture?  Its not as if I'm a newbie into the outdoors realm (far from it) but I am a newbie into the specifics of winter camping/hiking.  Anyway, does that help?  I don't want people to think I odn't know what's going on, just never had any friends who did winter stuff.
> Any recomendations on where to start and end?  Anything I should be aware of that isn't standard fare within backpacking proper?  Thanks for the advice, and concern I appreciate it.  Its always good to look out for each other, looking forward to hearing from you more.



Thanks for the clarification.  We're not trying to sound like a Greek Chorus here or anything  :wink: .

You are going to want a warmer bag than 0 if you will be in the Presidentials.  Though you have some good experience, have you been to the Presidentials before?  They truly are incredible in beauty and danger and I'd again advise you to try some dry runs in Northern New England before venturing up to the Whites this winter.  

I've seen a lot of people get into trouble because they held "XYZ" certification and experience in other parts of the world, but from living in the shadow of the Whites, I can tell you that they will throw things at you that you never imagined, so be careful (which it sounds like you are  :wink: ).  Sir Hillary dubbed Mount Washington as "the most deadly mountain in the world" with good reason.  

Why not get your feet wet per se with some good overnights in the Southern Green Mountains?  The Long Trail has some nice shelters and you could work your way north into tougher climate and terrain.  Be sure to bring someone as well.  I'd say work your way up to the Whites and maybe do some exploring up there in the winter so that you are better prepared.


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## Mike P. (Nov 18, 2004)

They do rent sleeping bags, or at least they did when I worked there, I have to think they do, likely some below zero's too.

Crampons & Snowshoes do require a little bit of getting used to, Mt. Washington, IMO is not the best place IMo to learn how to use them, especially the part where you step on one snowshoe with the other & do a face plant or catch the front points of your crampons on the back of the other boot because you are not use to your feet being an inch or two longer, BTW, most people would admit to doing this at least once in their lives, if not once a season.    

Catskills & the AT along the CT & NY border are easy drives from NYC, some of my coldest day hikes in January have been in the Catskills & some of the climbing out of the Cloves (the Catskill name for notch) is pretty steep & on par with the hiking in the Whites & ADK's.

Big difference with Presidentials Vs. the plains is the speed the weather can change.  You've probably read about, I can tell you it does move in as fast as they say.  Friends & I did a March Winter trip up Adams, it was a very warm day, above freezing & pretty calm.  It was actually crowded & those with convertible pants had zipped the legs off so they had shorts on over long underwear.  While we were sitting around the hut after stopping on the summit & the summit of JQA, in a span of 10 minutes the wind picked up from a light breeze to 40+ winds with gusts  & it got cold, luckily for us we were at the hut which is just above treeline but we saw others who were ascending while we were at the hut turned back by the weather.  We did not stick around any longer to see if it got worse.

Visibility is another factor, maps don't do much good when you can't see more than 20 feet ahead of you & the snow & wind wipe out any sign of a trail.  I prefer doing my winter hiking on trails & mountains I've done before.  For Adams & Madison the year before we did November trips so we could get a small sense of what it would look like covered in snow, although 8-16 inches does not really look like 3 feet with higher drifts. I believe my highest winter first ascent is Black Dome & Blackhead in the Catskills, while almost 4,000 feet high the trail is well defined & not exposed.  Highest I could get in New England would be 3,993 Sandwich Dome (or Reddington & I won't be doing that in winter with a closed CVR)  I might consider leaving a straight forward ADK 4K peak to do in winter but with almost 1/2 of those done, Dial at 4,020 feet is about the only one I have left that fit's that description.

I'd keep abreast of the weather & next cold snap that comes through in late November or early December, hit the Catskills or NW CT, check this site out too fi you have not done so already.   http://users.wsg.net/amc/  (Mohwak Hudson Home Page, looks like they frequent the area but nothing planned)  At http://www.viewsfromthetop.com  they have various forums, the best & most used site in the Northeast for trail conditions & a trip & event forum where people are frequently posting trips & looking for people to go.  Overall the group over there is pretty knowledgeable about hiking, camping etc in this area.


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