# Killington - Expert trails CLOSED, with NO Snowmaking....



## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

Yes, I started a new thread. Here is part of todays report:



> Killington has seen low temperatures sticking around, which means the snowmakers plan to be out and about on Friday. Keep an eye out for snow guns on Outer Limits and Snowshed Slope, in addition to spot guns on Great Northern and throughout our 400+ open acres.


 
*They've got Double Dipper, Downdraft, Devil's Fiddle, Vertigo, Upper Dreamaker and Ovation that haven't seen any snowmaking this year.* Clearly because of the dew tour taking away snowmaking resources. 

In 8 years being a regular at Killington, I have never seen Dipper and Downdraft not get snowmaking.

If anyone cares and want these trails open this year, you need make your voice heard. Feel free to complain to Killington via FB, email, etc.


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

I think I have deja vu on this thread, but the warm weather has been crazy this year, which I'm sure makes it tough for any mountain.


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## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

Nick said:


> I think I have deja vu. But yes I'm surprised as well. At this rate the closing day will be Mar 15th.


 
Thank you for your leeway on this. 

I'm not willing to let them slide on not making snow in the canyon (dipper/downdraft).


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## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2012)

They would say that Outer Limits is the "expert trail" with snowmaking.  Your response?


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## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> They would say that Outer Limits is the "expert trail" with snowmaking. Your response?


 
OL is half open.  Really.  I didn't say every expert trail was closed.


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## drjeff (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Yes, I started a new thread.  Here is part of todays report:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just for a moment to play "arm chair mountain ops manager" for a second.  Has there ever been a year in your 8 years of being a K regular that has seen the need for as many, almost weekly resurfacing events as this year??  

You can easily argue that Fiddle, and possibly Vertigo would be affected by the snowmaking effort for the Dew Tour courses,  but DD, Downdraft and Ovation based on my knowledge of K's snowmaking system layout I believe are on a seperate "air loop" than the Bear side. So for those trails it then gets down to an issue of either they've had to divert their resources for opening and maintaining other terrain or just the descision to not use a decent amount of resources to produce the amount of snow needed to get those trails open.  This season in particular has presented repeated challenges not often seen, and as such makes one have to ask the question of should peoples expectations be as they would be in a "normal" season this year??  Especially tough considering how last year was which is still fresh in so many peoples memories


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

I was just about to write a similar thing to DrJeff. If you have to concentrate your snowmaking efforts somewhere, you have to work with what you got. I mean the winter is terrible. I don't know a whole ton about snowmaking but I'm guessing if it's a choice between a a lot of trails with thin cover or a couple trails that are very ski-able they will cater to the trails that have the most snow. 

It's a tough winter either way. it has to be hell to be a mountain ops person this year.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Feb 3, 2012)

I was at Kton sunday last weekend. Spent part of the day lapping the Bear Mt quad.  Pretty much every ride up I saw someone sliding (off their feet) down OL.  Given the weather recently I don't see how a better surface could have been made on the steeper canyon runs.

Didn't someone die sliding down Dipper a few years ago?

edit: My point is, I thought they made good choices with where they were focussing their snowmaking effort.


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## skiur (Feb 3, 2012)

They have had opportunites to blow snow in cold temps recently and did not.  Even before the rental compressors went back.  They chose not too.  Their actions speak for themselves.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> OL is half open.  Really.  I didn't say every expert trail was closed.



Right, but I am playing devil's advocate and taking their side.  I do agree that not snowmaking on those expert runs is not good, but I see them saying, "gee, the winter weather sucks and hell, we at least have some of OL open."


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## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm tired of the sympathy for the budget, resurfacing, etc.  This is Killington.  They need to make snow on their premier expert trails, PERIOD.


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## Nick (Feb 3, 2012)

Well we could always go throw water in the air and hope it freezes on the way down.

I get it's frustrating, but there must be some operational decision behind it. These things aren't just by accident, I'm assuming.


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## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

skiur said:


> They have had opportunites to blow snow in cold temps recently and did not. Even before the rental compressors went back. They chose not too. Their actions speak for themselves.


 
Agreed, we got hosed this year and it wasn't by the weather.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm tired of the sympathy for the budget, resurfacing, etc.  This is Killington.  They need to make snow on their premier expert trails, PERIOD.



I hate to actually agree with HS about something, but he is right. This is skiing. It is not a consistent business. Some years you lose money. K needs to accept that fact. Blow #$@% the trails already!


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## drjeff (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm tired of the sympathy for the budget, resurfacing, etc.  This is Killington.  They need to make snow on their premier expert trails, PERIOD.



Emotion vs. Reality sometimes is a real B$tch


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## Glenn (Feb 3, 2012)

Roadtrip time! I'll bring some full rockered 120mm powder boards and lay down some carving trenches in the Dew Tour pipe.


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## gmcunni (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> K needs to accept that fact.



this might be backwards. perhaps the customers need to accept the facts.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2012)

Do you think that this is a continuation of their shift in focus away from expert skiers to the mediocre/ski a few times a year crowd that frequent places like Okemo and have more disposable income?


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## kingslug (Feb 3, 2012)

This reminds me of how some restaurants deal with a bad economy. They cut and cut, food quality goes down, they cut prices..right up until they go out of business....


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## drjeff (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I hate to actually agree with HS about something, but he is right. This is skiing. It is not a consistent business. Some years you lose money. K needs to accept that fact. Blow #$@% the trails already!



The reality is though about the "modern" snowmaking process at just about any ski area these days vs. what the snowmaking process of the past USED to be, is that from an operations standpoint, ski area managers have so much more data available to them today than in years past AND for a hard cap on the annual snowmaking budget.  Combined with the fact that the energy costs today vs. what they were 10+ years ago makes snowmaking much more expensive per hour than it used to me (using K as an example,  I don't think that anyone would dispute that the cost of a gallon of diesel to power the air compressors, or the cost of a Kw hour to run an fixed electric compressors is much greater than it was 10+ years ago),  so as a result, many ski areas are far more aware of how efficiently they can make snow vs. just "can they make snow" at any given moment.  

I'm guessing that the great effort, with much credit given to them that K put in back in October and November to get open and then stay open caused them to go through a greater percentage of their annual snowmaking budget than they anticipated.  Then the number of resurfacing events they have had to go through this year didn't help either. So now they've probably had to make the tough choice of looking at the weather and the resources (read as $$ left in the snowmaking budget) and make choices based on logic, not emotion (i.e. an 18 hour window or so ahead of a 2 day warm up to start making snow on a new double diamond trail probably isn't as high a priority as using those same snowmaking budget dollars on the backside of that warm up when resurfacing is needed of existing terrain).  I'm guessing that K, just like most Eastern Ski areas this year because of the weather, will end up seeing a decrease in skier/rider visits.  The choice then to go beyond a likely budgeted amount of snowmaking funds at the expense of an already likely decrease in seasonal revenues will be tough, especially given the capital expense that K is looking at this summer with the completion of the summit lodge.  

The business choices that have to be made sometimes aren't easy by any means,  and until someone has been in the situation where they've had to make a tough business descision, almost having the only choice being one of "which is the lesser of two evils?"  it's really tough to grasp this concept.  Since as much as "the customer is always right" applies, there's also a time when the expectations of a customer can't bet achieved in the current circumstance presented to the business


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## deadheadskier (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I hate to actually agree with HS about something, but he is right. This is skiing. It is not a consistent business. Some years you lose money. K needs to accept that fact. Blow #$@% the trails already!



I wonder how much ski areas budget in terms of reserves for winters when they don't turn a profit.


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## neil (Feb 3, 2012)

Killington sucks. It's the worst. Every year they fail. Epically. Epic fail you might say.

I'll be buying a pass next year.


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## drjeff (Feb 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder how much ski areas budget in terms of reserves for winters when they don't turn a profit.



Then again there's a website full of one's that threw the concept of annual losses out the window! 

www.nelsap.org


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## deadheadskier (Feb 3, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Then again there's a website full of one's that threw the concept of annual losses out the window!
> 
> www.nelsap.org



Given it's physical assets, Killington will never end up on that list.  I do worry that list will grow for next season.  It must be real scary for some of the mom and pop areas out there.


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## legalskier (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Agreed, we got hosed this year and it wasn't by the weather.


 
I can understand your frustration- why don't you contact them and ask why those particular trails haven't been covered? There may be a rational justification and you won't have to guess at what's going on. You may or may not agree with their reasoning but at least  they'll get the benefit of the doubt.

The fact is that the weather has been hosing the entire NE this season. Most areas are in survival mode or close to it. Snowmaking is very expensive, even more so over an extended period like this season. It is what it is.  :sad:


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 3, 2012)

drjeff said:


> The reality is though about the "modern" snowmaking process at just about any ski area these days vs. what the snowmaking process of the past USED to be, is that from an operations standpoint, ski area managers have so much more data available to them today than in years past AND for a hard cap on the annual snowmaking budget.  Combined with the fact that the energy costs today vs. what they were 10+ years ago makes snowmaking much more expensive per hour than it used to me (using K as an example,  I don't think that anyone would dispute that the cost of a gallon of diesel to power the air compressors, or the cost of a Kw hour to run an fixed electric compressors is much greater than it was 10+ years ago),  so as a result, many ski areas are far more aware of how efficiently they can make snow vs. just "can they make snow" at any given moment.
> 
> I'm guessing that the great effort, with much credit given to them that K put in back in October and November to get open and then stay open caused them to go through a greater percentage of their annual snowmaking budget than they anticipated.  Then the number of resurfacing events they have had to go through this year didn't help either. So now they've probably had to make the tough choice of looking at the weather and the resources (read as $$ left in the snowmaking budget) and make choices based on logic, not emotion (i.e. an 18 hour window or so ahead of a 2 day warm up to start making snow on a new double diamond trail probably isn't as high a priority as using those same snowmaking budget dollars on the backside of that warm up when resurfacing is needed of existing terrain).  I'm guessing that K, just like most Eastern Ski areas this year because of the weather, will end up seeing a decrease in skier/rider visits.  The choice then to go beyond a likely budgeted amount of snowmaking funds at the expense of an already likely decrease in seasonal revenues will be tough, especially given the capital expense that K is looking at this summer with the completion of the summit lodge.
> 
> The business choices that have to be made sometimes aren't easy by any means,  and until someone has been in the situation where they've had to make a tough business descision, almost having the only choice being one of "which is the lesser of two evils?"  it's really tough to grasp this concept.  Since as much as "the customer is always right" applies, there's also a time when the expectations of a customer can't bet achieved in the current circumstance presented to the business


Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.


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## oakapple (Feb 3, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Given it's physical assets, Killington will never end up on that list.  I do worry that list will grow for next season.  It must be real scary for some of the mom and pop areas out there.



I agree that there is no scenario where Killington winds up on the NELSAP list. But one only needs to go back to the ASC days, to know what happens when the finances become over-extended beyond their means.

You can practically guarantee that when someone issues a pronouncement that ends with "PERIOD," it is a gross exaggeration. No one ever writes, "Today is Friday. PERIOD." People use that extra emphasis to create a false sense of certainty, when the actual question is much more debatable.


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## oakapple (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.



I'm just wondering: is there an actual analytical basis for this? Or is it just the adult equivalent of pounding on the high chair, and saying, "Mommy, I want more chocolate."

Don't get me wrong: I am not happy to see so many trails closed, not just at Killington (which I am visiting tomorrow), but at every other ski area. It is just not clear to me that their strategy is necessarily the wrong one.


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## 2knees (Feb 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I'm just wondering: is there an actual analytical basis for this? .



This is killington we're talking about.  Facts never do come into play much in these threads.

To see the other side of it however it looks as though they are taking almost the exact opposite approach and trying to fit their expenditures into the down season instead of staying the course and at least holding to a pre season plan.

And no, I have no facts to base this on, just a thought.


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.



You dont own a business do you?

Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again.  If it is really that bad, dont ski there.


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## farlep99 (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.



In addition to this, yes, the cost of a gallon of diesel has increased over the last 10+ years.  But so has the price of a lift ticket.  If they're increasing their prices, the services provided should follow.  And I agree, weather is inconsistent so any snowmaking budget should be flexible.  I'm not arguing the OP's point about where they should or shouldn't be making snow.  OPS decisions are surely made for a reason.  I just hope the reason isn't just all about profit & not delivering the service


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## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> this might be backwards. perhaps the customers need to accept the facts.



A lot of folks have already fled....


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## SIKSKIER (Feb 3, 2012)

Drjeff is right on the on this one.I can't speak for the Beast but I can't remember when I've seen Cannon resurface trails so many times.For the most part they usually make snow one time and move on.Middle Cannon and Ravine have been done 3 times now.They have posted on their snow report for 2 weeks that they will be making snow on Upper Cannon it still has not happened as they have had to go back to resurface.I can't remember when I've not seen Upper Cannon not open the begining of Feb.Its not just Killington HS.


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## gmcunni (Feb 3, 2012)

*Killington = New York Mets*

Loved by their fans, mocked by others and the owners are idiots who don't know how to run their business?


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 3, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> You dont own a business do you?
> 
> Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again.  If it is really that bad, dont ski there.



As a matter of fact I have owned my own business for almost 20 years now, thank you very much.

And I love my children, but that does not mean I do not tell them when they screw up.

Sometime between now and September the majority of high-profit, holiday, family skiers will be making their annual decisions of where to ski. On the holidays you have to book before the areas even open for the year if you want a decent place. Many of those decisions will be  based on what ski areas do this year. When people see areas like Stratton, Okemo and Sugarbush having a higher percentage of there trails open than Killington, well, how do you think that will affect their decision making next Fall?

Right now:
Killington 74/140 = 53% open
Stratton 81/94 = 86%
Okemo 89/119 = 75%
Sugarbush 111/111 = 100%

source: http://www.skivermont.com/conditions


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## legalskier (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> When people see areas like Stratton, Okemo and Sugarbush having a higher percentage of there trails open than Killington, well, how do you think that will affect their decision making next Fall?
> 
> Right now:
> Killington 74/140 = 53% open
> ...



Isn't 53% of K still bigger than those percentages at the other areas?


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## skiur (Feb 3, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> You dont own a business do you?
> 
> Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again.  If it is really that bad, dont ski there.



Tough to do when you own property.  Wanna buy a condo at K?  Plus management comes and goes.  Hopefully the next one will think differently than nyberg does.


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## 2knees (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Right now:
> Killington 74/140 = 53% open
> Stratton 81/94 = 86%
> Okemo 89/119 = 75%
> ...



the bush must be gettin pretty liberal with the trail openings.  I would guess castlerock has to be of porcelain quality.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 3, 2012)

i had emailed Pico regarding a snowmaking question and they replied back with in a  day.


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## oakapple (Feb 3, 2012)

SIKSKIER said:


> Drjeff is right on the on this one.I can't speak for the Beast but I can't remember when I've seen Cannon resurface trails so many times.For the most part they usually make snow one time and move on.Middle Cannon and Ravine have been done 3 times now.They have posted on their snow report for 2 weeks that they will be making snow on Upper Cannon it still has not happened as they have had to go back to resurface.I can't remember when I've not seen Upper Cannon not open the begining of Feb. It's not just Killington HS.


The other thing is: most of the trails people are complaining about, although they have snowmaking ability, in a normal year most of the cover would be provided by Mother Nature. When Nature gives zero assistance, the amount you have to blow (for it to be both credible and safe) is all that much more.



legalskier said:


> Isn't 53% of K still bigger than those percentages at the other areas?


Well, Stratton claims to have 459 acres open, and Okemo claims to have 516 acres, vs. 426 for Killington. I can't find an acreage count for Sugarbush, but I'll bet that 100 percent of Sugarbush is more than 53 percent of Killington.

Now, an awful lot of Killington's closed terrain consists of trails that never had much (or any) snowmaking. No one is complaining about Juggernaut or Valley Plunge. The issue is a handful of Killington's signature double-blacks, which for a certain category of skiers is a very significant omission.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 3, 2012)

legalskier said:


> Isn't 53% of K still bigger than those percentages at the other areas?



I added the acres, again from the same source.

acres:
436  Killington 74/140 = 53% open
459  Stratton 81/94 = 86%
516  Okemo 89/119 = 75%
484  Sugarbush 111/111 = 100%

source: http://www.skivermont.com/conditions


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## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> i had emailed Pico regarding a snowmaking question and they replied back with in a day.


 
I've already asked.


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## Highway Star (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I added the acres, again from the same source.
> 
> acres:
> 436 Killington 74/140 = 53% open
> ...


 
I'm totally sking Okemo next year, lookout!!!


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm totally sking Okemo next year, lookout!!!



You are not an intermediate, holiday week only family. Okemo does not care about you.


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## millerm277 (Feb 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> The other thing is: most of the trails people are complaining about, although they have snowmaking ability, in a normal year most of the cover would be provided by Mother Nature. When Nature gives zero assistance, the amount you have to blow (for it to be both credible and safe) is all that much more.



This is incorrect. These are trails that are virtually impossible for them to ever be open for any length of time without a man-made base. Double Dipper and Ovation especially.


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## St. Bear (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> You are not an intermediate, holiday week only family. Okemo does not care about you.



As long as his credit card is valid, Okemo, and every other mountain for that matter, cares about him.


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## legalskier (Feb 3, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I'm totally sking Okemo next year, lookout!!!



And let us know when you find a double black.....


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## Black Phantom (Feb 3, 2012)

The low level intermediate skier should be very excited about Killington's offerings this season.


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## bvibert (Feb 3, 2012)

2knees said:


> the bush must be gettin pretty liberal with the trail openings.  I would guess castlerock has to be of porcelain quality.



It's hard to tell from the pic, but to me it looks pretty good today:






https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...69550194437_668549436_8517875_214093321_n.jpg


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> As a matter of fact I have owned my own business for almost 20 years now, thank you very much.
> 
> And I love my children, but that does not mean I do not tell them when they screw up.



And what is that business?  Do you go and say screw the profits and just spend money like crazy because someone thinks you should?  Something tells me you do not.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 3, 2012)

Killington had a great start to the season making more snow than anyone at first...

then I don't know what happened. I've been there 3 times... still the Canyon area double diamonds aren't open?

I could really care less about Bear Peak... I mean I might ski Devil's Fiddle or the glades over there if they are open.. but IMO the best terrain in the Canyons and that hasn't even opened up yet.

They should focus on opening up all the terrain on Killington Peak and maybe Snowshed too before trying to open up all the other mountains.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 3, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> And what is that business?  Do you go and say screw the profits and just spend money like crazy because someone thinks you should?  Something tells me you do not.



I always try to think long term. Loosing a little money making extra snow now will bring in a lot more money next year. For goodness sake, next year's season pass sales are coming up soon. You cannot successfully run a ski area thinking only about the current year's dollars.


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I always try to think long term. Loosing a little money making extra snow now will bring in a lot more money next year. For goodness sake, next year's season pass sales are coming up soon. You cannot successfully run a ski area thinking only about the current year's dollars.



Or they could blow the entire companies savings making snow that keeps getting rained away, only to realize that they have no money to open as a business next year.  Now thats really thinking long term...


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## snowdays (Feb 3, 2012)

Let me pose this question for everyone.  Given the very difficult season weather wise and, frankly, not great conditions (the usual result of no snow), should Killington expect folks to pay full price?  Should any mountain for that matter?  Are you getting value for the price you pay?

I'm curious to understand what skiers and riders about the value they are receiving for the money spent.  I try to look for deals as much as possible, but they are hard to find sometimes with blackouts and weekends being the only time I can go.  Any thoughts?


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## Newpylong (Feb 3, 2012)

Crappy year, no other way to describe it. I think it's lame but I see where they are coming from. There are many areas with steeps that won't see a snow gun this year...


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## mattchuck2 (Feb 3, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again.  If it is really that bad, dont ski there.



Exactly. Until you actually say something with your money (instead of saying it with your keyboard), nobody is going to listen to you. I probably wouldn't choose Okemo, though . .  That place blows.


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## SkiFanE (Feb 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I always try to think long term. Loosing a little money making extra snow now will bring in a lot more money next year. For goodness sake, next year's season pass sales are coming up soon. You cannot successfully run a ski area thinking only about the current year's dollars.



Agree 100%  Killington NEEDS expert trails.  Don't know K's trails well...but doesn't sound very BEASTly to me.  Is one expert trail all that's open?  Seriously?  Wow.

Well, as I speak I believe Sunday River is blowing the snot out of White Heat.  They blew on Top Gun Friday (or Thu).  They opened Black Hole this week, Agony.  Looks like they lost a couple trails this week though, but they haven't given up.  Lots of snowpower going to the halfpipe and rocking chair park, they haven't opened yet, so I guess we've gotta give them that lol.  SR knows snowmaking is needed to sell tickets.  I'm very excited for skiing tomorrow, they keep the energy going.

Gotta get some zzzzzzzzzz's....WH freshies in the am


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2012)

legalskier said:


> Isn't 53% of K still bigger than those percentages at the other areas?



Hell no.

100% of K isn't equal to 50% of the Bush.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 4, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Hell no.
> 
> 100% of K isn't equal to 50% of the Bush.



Actually, it is almost exactly the opposite. About 60% of Killington is equal to all of Sugarbush, including North. At least according to those skivermont numbers I saw.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Actually, it is almost exactly the opposite. About 60% of Killington is equal to all of Sugarbush, including North. At least according to those skivermont numbers I saw.



Guess you don't ski there much.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 4, 2012)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Or they could blow the entire companies savings making snow that keeps getting rained away, only to realize that they have no money to open as a business next year.  Now thats really thinking long term...



Well, yours is an excellent argument for not making any snow, ever. Are you sure you are a skier?


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 4, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Guess you don't ski there much.



I have skied many days at Sugarbush. Honestly I would say the two resorts _feel_ about equal in size - as long as Sugarbush gets to include North and K does NOT get to include Pico. But I based my earlier post on the skivermont acre numbers.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 4, 2012)

I wonder how much next summer's Peak Lodge has to do with the reduction in snowmaking operations.  I'd imagine if I was running the show knowing I had a $6M+ Capital Project planned in the near future and my P&L statement is pretty much all red, I'd be cutting expenses big time too.

I also wonder what the snowmaking and midweek operational plans will look like if they ever complete the interconnect.  Will the interconnect make Killington a 1M skier visit mountain again to support blowing snow like they did in the past?  I really don't think it will unless the terrain developed in between Ramshead and Pico is exceptional.


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## Tooth (Feb 4, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I wonder how much next summer's Peak Lodge has to do with the reduction in snowmaking operations.  I'd imagine if I was running the show knowing I had a $6M+ Capital Project planned in the near future and my P&L statement is pretty much all red, I'd be cutting expenses big time too.
> 
> I also wonder what the snowmaking and midweek operational plans will look like if they ever complete the interconnect.  Will the interconnect make Killington a 1M skier visit mountain again to support blowing snow like they did in the past?  I really don't think it will unless the terrain developed in between Ramshead and Pico is exceptional.



Too many other great options now. The beast is dying a slow public death.


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## awf170 (Feb 4, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I added the acres, again from the same source.
> 
> acres:
> 436  Killington 74/140 = 53% open
> ...



That Okemo and Stratton comparison definitely shows how weak K-mart has become.  The worse part is both those mountains have been hit by significantly bigger warm-ups and way less snow.

The Sugarbush comparison is useless seeing that about half those trails are open on natural snow only.  Sugarbush's snow making is pretty awful for a mountain its size to be honest.


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## filejw (Feb 4, 2012)

Interesting reading all this.The Canyon are trails and lift are the main reason go I to K..Haven't made the trip this year and I normally make 2/3  trips a season.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Don't forget that Stratton is now doing the same thing K had to do for the DEW tour. They have the U.S. Open coming the beginning of March. I skied there this past Mon. & besides having the guns going where the pipe & other events will be they had guns going in several large areas on the front side of the mountain. The mountain had good base & surprisingly good conditions considering all the rain freeze cycles they've had.

Skied Sugarbush Tues. & they had pretty good base even on the natural trails. The place was legit being 100% open. Didn't see any guns going anywhere at the Bush.

If K doesn't blow more snow this year it's going to be a short spring for them.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Here's today's K report. Sounds like they are just re-surfacing.

_Low temperatures at Killington have brought our snowmakers back, and they’ve been busy! Look for snow guns on Outer Limits, Snowshed Slope, and Great Northern as the Mountain Ops team works to freshen trails across our 400+ acres. They also have been renovating Wildfire and Skyeburst, so expect new surfacing on those trails just in time for the weekend._

And this is the thing that gets me. With the limited expert terrain they still close 2 expert trails to the public almost on a daily basis.

_Upper Bunny Buster, Conclusion and the Highline Race Trail will be closed to the public for events. Thank you in advance for your understanding._


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## bigbob (Feb 4, 2012)

Last evening I counted 10 guns going on OL. The resurfacing was just a slow, deep grind with the tillers. Produced lots of loose, frozen granular. Wasn't bad midweek, but will be scraped up into sugar bumps with ice in between.They need natural snow to mix in and it ain't in the forecast. It is what it is!


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## Rogman (Feb 4, 2012)

bigbob said:


> Last evening I counted 10 guns going on OL. The resurfacing was just a slow, deep grind with the tillers. Produced lots of loose, frozen granular. Wasn't bad midweek, but will be scraped up into sugar bumps with ice in between.They need natural snow to mix in and it ain't in the forecast. It is what it is!


There are at least 25 guns still running almost the entire length of OL. Huge bumps today, good stuff. However, overall I'm disappointed in Killington's effort this year, regardless they continue to claim the most open terrain in Vt., but I'm skeptical.  Their trail report has taken liberties with the truth. They continue to report Skyehawk as open because a short flat area below the roped off headwall is open. POWDR had been better than that. They need to clean up their act.


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## mountainman (Feb 4, 2012)

*Renovator pic.*

[543210


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## Newpylong (Feb 4, 2012)

awf170 said:


> That Okemo and Stratton comparison definitely shows how weak K-mart has become.  The worse part is both those mountains have been hit by significantly bigger warm-ups and way less snow.
> 
> The Sugarbush comparison is useless seeing that about half those trails are open on natural snow only.  Sugarbush's snow making is pretty awful for a mountain its size to be honest.



Absolutely untrue regarding snowmaking. They are graced with more natural than many other areas, but they have a good percentage of terrain with snowmaking coverage and have an almost infinite supply of water from the Mad River. ASC made a huge investment in snowmaking when the purchased both mountains in the mid 90s. Runs that don't have snowmaking are better off without it.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 4, 2012)

Newpylong said:


> Absolutely untrue regarding snowmaking. They are graced with more natural than many other areas, but they have a good percentage of terrain with snowmaking coverage and have an almost infinite supply of water from the Mad River. ASC made a huge investment in snowmaking when the purchased both mountains in the mid 90s. Runs that don't have snowmaking are better off without it.


The place just has a much better vibe.

Not to much city riff raff like myself (you gotta problem with that?).

Forget the fact there is better terrain, natural snow & scenery.

K is good when it's good but the Bush is good more often.

I'm an old timer before snow making & there was always more natural snow from MRV north, nothing new there, counted on it back in the day.

Can't duplicate mother nature.

For instance today's Jr. Castle Rock run at the Bush (pic below).

Didn't look like this anywhere at K today & this is natural snow (zero snowmaking on Castle Rock).

Imagine that open expert terrain with base all without a snow gun. What a novel idea...:idea:

You're absolutely right awf170 the Sugarbush comparison is useless.


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## dadnetebw (Feb 5, 2012)

Complain to Killington via FB, email? Forget it. As if they would come up with an "appropriate" reply.

However, some news say that Killington's revenue went down by 8% so I guess meeting budget requirements is a struggle.


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## oakapple (Feb 5, 2012)

dadnetebw said:


> Complain to Killington via FB, email? Forget it. As if they would come up with an "appropriate" reply.


Actually, there is some evidence that Killington _does_ pay attention to customer complaints and responds to them. About a week ago, the boards complained that both the Canyon Quad and North Ridge Triple were closed every weekday, unlike past years. Suddenly, someone from Killington management responded here, and they're now running one or the other lift every day.

This doesn't mean they'll do _anything_ (if it were up to Killington fans, the mountain would remain open till June, and that ain't happening), but they do listen.


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## Tin (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm no fan of Killington but only having 85" of snowfall this year is pretty brutal.

But when they have 63/90 beginner and intermediate trails open and 15/51 advanced/expert trails open, it shows where their priorities are. But maybe they got the point of your complaints since they are snowmaking on Outer Limits! haha


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## steamboat1 (Feb 5, 2012)

Tin said:


> I'm no fan of Killington but only having 85" of snowfall this year is pretty brutal.
> 
> But when they have 63/90 beginner and intermediate trails open and 15/51 advanced/expert trails open, it shows where their priorities are. But maybe they got the point of your complaints since they are snowmaking on Outer Limits! haha


To bad the new gun heads they installed on OL don't put out enough snow. They only cover about 1/3 of the width of the trail if that. Besides OL has been open for weeks already, time to expand the expert terrain. Oh & get those dam kids off of Conclusion & High Line. Let the people that actually pay $80+ for a lift ticket ski them.


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## abc (Feb 5, 2012)

The good and bad of big-K altogether!

It's the biggest mountain in the east. But it's so big they don't have enough snowmaking to cover every trail like in Okemo and Stratton. So, when Mother Nature doesn't oblige, it can only the same acreage as Okemo/Stratton. 

Like Sugarbush, they count on decent snow due to locaton/elevation. This year, it failed miserably. The same could potentially happen to the Bush in an odd year. But this year they get to laugh at K'mart's problem. 

It's only a problem to the season pass holders and property owners. For vacationers and day trippers, they can choose to ski somewhere else. I always thought that's the drawback of having a season pass. You're at the whimp of one mountain, whether it's mis-management or just bad luck with Mother Nature. Though to be fair, if you're a regular who skis there year after year, I'd think the odds even out. (though mis-management doesn't)

I have my bias against K'mart. But the current problem isn't something I had past experience on so I have nothing negative to say. And it seems it's part of the risk of buying season pass in the summer for a discount. Still, if people are considering big K next season, their performance this year will have them re-thinking what they're looking for in big-K and whether it'll be delivered.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 5, 2012)

abc said:


> The good and bad of big-K altogether!
> 
> It's the biggest mountain in the east. But it's so big they don't have enough snowmaking to cover every trail like in Okemo and Stratton. So, when Mother Nature doesn't oblige, it can only the same acreage as Okemo/Stratton.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily true. I have a season pass for K but only spend about 1/2 my skiing days there. Skied VT. last week & never went to K.


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## oakapple (Feb 5, 2012)

Tin said:


> I'm no fan of Killington but only having 85" of snowfall this year is pretty brutal.
> 
> But when they have 63/90 beginner and intermediate trails open and 15/51 advanced/expert trails open, it shows where their priorities are. But maybe they got the point of your complaints since they are snowmaking on Outer Limits! haha


It's a misnomer to classify all the green trails as "beginner trails". A very large number of them are key transit routes that are used by skiers of all abilities. Imagine for a moment that you are in charge there. Which green trails that have had snowmaking this year, would you choose NOT to blow? It is hard to come up with very many. Yodeler perhaps.



steamboat1 said:


> To bad the new gun heads they installed on OL don't put out enough snow. They only cover about 1/3 of the width of the trail if that. Besides OL has been open for weeks already, time to expand the expert terrain.


I assume they are trying to at least make sure OL retains enough cover to be skiable through the usual Bear Mountain closing date (end of March).


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## o3jeff (Feb 5, 2012)

With Highwaystar being the only expert there, they figured why should they just cater to him.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 5, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> To bad the new gun heads they installed on OL don't put out enough snow. They only cover about 1/3 of the width of the trail if that. Besides OL has been open for weeks already, time to expand the expert terrain. Oh & get those dam kids off of Conclusion & High Line. Let the people that actually pay $80+ for a lift ticket ski them.



Please stop it with this. Those kids paid more than you did in order to compete on those trails. Did you see the Mogul course on Conclusion? Serious respect for those kids.


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## Hawkshot99 (Feb 5, 2012)

uphillklimber said:


> Just guessing here, but the expert trails are more likely to be used by pass holder (read: no extra income there), while the beginner and intermediate are more likely to bring in more day trippers buying nice expensive tickets.



This may be true, but also anythime I go to any mtn the trails that have the most number of people on them are always the green and blue trails.  So if they close one of those trails and have a black open, now they are squeezing the masses onto less terrain, and giving even more room to the pretty empty trails.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Please stop it with this. Those kids paid more than you did in order to compete on those trails. Did you see the Mogul course on Conclusion? Serious respect for those kids.


Same dam course they've been closing the trail for years now because of.

How many kids pay how much to close 2 of a limited number of expert terrain open. Not to mention Needles some days.

Very poor PR on the mountains part.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 6, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Same dam course they've been closing the trail for years now because of.
> 
> How many kids pay how much to close 2 of a limited number of expert terrain open. Not to mention Needles some days.
> 
> Very poor PR on the mountains part.



Very wrong on your part. It is great public relations aimed directly at the most serious skiers. Sign up for the Adult Race Week or Weekends if you feel like paying for the same privilege. Though I will admit that closing all of Bunny Buster for one set of gates is annoying. I wish they would only fence off the portion of a trail that they really need - especially with limited terrain. Did you see last weeks "B" Freestylers? They put the course on an unused, and very visible, part of Superstar. That was great. Unfortunately, this weekend's "A" Freestylers needed all the pitch they could get, hence Conclusion.


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## C-Rex (Feb 6, 2012)

Soooo....you guys are saying I shouldn't head to Kton this weekend for the CSC discount?


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## steamboat1 (Feb 6, 2012)

Let's see today upper/middle Skyeburst, lower Wildfire, upper Bunny Buster & Highline closed to the public for racing.

Thanks for your understanding.


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## Black Phantom (Feb 6, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> Soooo....you guys are saying I shouldn't head to Kton this weekend for the CSC discount?



Yes. It will be terrible. Magic is where it is at.


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## C-Rex (Feb 6, 2012)

Black Phantom said:


> Yes. It will be terrible. Magic is where it is at.



I can never tell when you're being sarcastic or not.  Anyone else have an opinion?


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 6, 2012)

lots of guns going yesterday at K...i was on Snowdon all day due to my daughters race on top of bunny buster..you could see snow clouds all over the mountain...big thanks goes to K for shutting down snowmaking ops at Pico...


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## rocojerry (Feb 6, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> I can never tell when you're being sarcastic or not.  Anyone else have an opinion?



Avoid K on weekends.  Even better, avoid it all together.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 6, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> I can never tell when you're being sarcastic or not.  Anyone else have an opinion?



I was at Pico yesterday and I really wished I was at Killington. Unless you have the time to head further North, I doubt anything else will be as good.


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## skiur (Feb 6, 2012)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> lots of guns going yesterday at K...i was on Snowdon all day due to my daughters race on top of bunny buster..you could see snow clouds all over the mountain...big thanks goes to K for shutting down snowmaking ops at Pico...



lots of guns?a few spot guns going on sunday, the rest of the compresors are now gone and all you will see again this year is spot guns.  Snowmaking is done for the year, even said so on todays snow report:

The snowcats will be taking to the mountain on Monday night, so expect 66 of our open trails to have fresh corduroy on Tuesday morning. Our snowmakers will be taking a break, but never fear, as they'll return on Friday to touch up the terrain and continue to maintain and improve our surfaces.

touch up maintain and improve is K speak for its done for the year.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 6, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> To bad the new gun heads they installed on OL don't put out enough snow. They only cover about 1/3 of the width of the trail if that.



This is what I'm talking about.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 6, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> This is what I'm talking about.



shouldn't they be able to compensate for that by pushing the snow evenly throughout the trail?

I'm not sure of any type of snow gun that's going to cover OL edge to edge.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 6, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> shouldn't they be able to compensate for that by pushing the snow evenly throughout the trail?
> 
> I'm not sure of any type of snow gun that's going to cover OL edge to edge.


The old guns would blow snow further out creating a more even surface to start with. Actually there are 2 pipes going up OL on either side of the trail. They haven't used the other side in years.


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## AdironRider (Feb 6, 2012)

Its better to blow manmade in whales, let them drain, then push it around. You are actually arguing for something that makes the snow quality worse than they currently operate.


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## Highway Star (Feb 6, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Its better to blow manmade in whales, let them drain, then push it around. You are actually arguing for something that makes the snow quality worse than they currently operate.



Seriously.....???????  Sorry, but you fail grooming 101.


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## Highway Star (Feb 6, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> shouldn't they be able to compensate for that by pushing the snow evenly throughout the trail?
> 
> I'm not sure of any type of snow gun that's going to cover OL edge to edge.


 
The new guns are horrific. Yes, they will spread the snow and it will be a slightly wider vertical skating rink than last week when they are done. If you want good snow surface, the snow has to be blown evenly on the trail, with minimal whales and grooming. Trust me, it will be vertical ice again next weekend.

Several types of guns have enough throw to make it most of the way across the trail, in fact, they had some there for the last 20 years.


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## mountainman (Feb 7, 2012)

AdironRider said:


> Its better to blow manmade in whales, let them drain, then push it around. You are actually arguing for something that makes the snow quality worse than they currently operate.



Yes and No. If done correctly yes the other no.




Highway Star said:


> Seriously.....???????  Sorry, but you fail grooming 101.



Have you ever groomed or made snow before? Or just what you hear?




Highway Star said:


> The new guns are horrific.  Yes, they will spread the snow and it will be a slightly wider vertical skating rink than last week when they are done.   If yo want good snow surface, the snow has to be blown evenly on the trail, with minimal whales and grooming.  Trust me, it will be vertical ice again next weekend.
> 
> Several types of guns have enough throw to make it most of the way across the trail, in fact, they had some there for the last 20 years.



The K3000 gun was one of the best in temps below 22 degrees. They would make snow and had a very good throw to them. New HKD's are good in all temps, but do not have the throw to them. Tower guns  less labor, ground guns more labor in making snow. Ground guns on a stand (Tripod) are labor intensive.

(Below) K3000 on a sled. This was a quick conversion. The sled use to have a Larchmont gun on it, but the worked. Sled was easy to move around for snowmaking and transporting it.






K3000 setup on a tower. This was another quick conversion, again this all so use to have a Larchmont gun on it. You had the power of a K3000 mounted on a tower and a boom to make snow with less labor.

Both were from the K's tower guns idea mounted on the snwomaking pipe. It was a start of an idea for tower guns.


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## drjeff (Feb 7, 2012)

mountainman said:


> Yes and No. If done correctly yes the other no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the cool pics and great information mountainman!  I was wondering what your opinion would be about lining a trail like OL with a bunch of BIG tower mounted fan guns vs. air/water guns (mounted on any assembly of choice)??  I know that the initial up front cost for the fan guns is significant, but having seen the throw capabilities and production output they give over a wide range of temperatures at Mount Snow these past 4 or 5 seasons, they almost seem to be tailormade for trails with over 200 feet of width.  Just curious as to what an expert would think about this.....


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## Highway Star (Feb 7, 2012)

mountainman said:


> The K3000 gun* was* one of the best in temps below 22 degrees.


 
Killington still uses the K3000 extensively.  Mostly on tripods but some on small towers.   They have excellent throw even on the ground, but even better off it.

The older style tower guns also have pretty good throw.   The ones with the flat nozzle and medium holes.  There are still many in place at K.

It really comes down to old air-hog guns VS. new high-E guns.  The new guns on OL are modern high-e types with 10 tiny nozzles.  I'm sure they use very little air, but they on put out a puny mist that gets blown back in any sort of wind.  An old style gun like the K3000 is pretty much a firehose, and throws much further.


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## mountainman (Feb 7, 2012)

Reponse to Dr. Jeff,

Thanks. I don't consider myself as an expert, just one who has been in the industry for too many years. Not a bad idea with the fan guns. Most areas do not want to spend $20K or more on a fan gun they cannot move. You can buy 10 HKD's and be able to move if needed. Mt. Snow was a great place to have fan guns and glad to hear they are working well. It comes down who makes the decisions and what works best. Fan guns on OL would be a major cost I don’t think the K is willing to make right now.


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## Highway Star (Feb 7, 2012)

We've been asking for a few fan guns on Killington's big trails for about 5+ years now.  Good luck.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 7, 2012)

Today it's upper Bunny Buster, Highline, Panic Button & Needles Eye closed to the public for racing.

Thanks for your understanding.


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## Newpylong (Feb 7, 2012)

Another factor is you would think due to the pitch of OL it would be difficult to get the fan guns up in the first place for installation, and then maintenance going forward...

I think some of their lower angle wide terrain is a better place for them...


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 7, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Today it's upper Bunny Buster, Highline, Panic Button & Needles Eye closed to the public for racing.
> 
> Thanks for your understanding.



Bunny is only blue, lots more of those. Panic to Needles is really just one trail. Highline also does not run the full length of the hill, but I'll give it to you. So, 2 blacks were closed to racing today. Here's *10* black trails that were open. And you wonder why no one is listening to you?
Skyeburst
Wildfire
Outer Limits
Cascade
East Fall
Catwalk
Escapade
Superstar
Mouse Trap
Conclusion

One added benefit to those reserved racing trails is that, on weekends, they keep a lot of the kids busy and out of our way on the rest of the mountain.


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## bobbutts (Feb 7, 2012)

Newpylong said:


> Another factor is you would think due to the pitch of OL it would be difficult to get the fan guns up in the first place for installation, and then maintenance going forward...
> 
> I think some of their lower angle wide terrain is a better place for them...








these are the tower mounted fan guns at Pat's Peak
shows one way to mount that type of gun on a steeper run and still be able to maintain it


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## Newpylong (Feb 7, 2012)

Good point, I guess Berkshire East has a similar setup on the front steeps...


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## Nick (Feb 7, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> I can never tell when you're being sarcastic or not.  Anyone else have an opinion?



I grew up skiing Killington every year and was a passholder for many years. Killington still remains one of my favorite places to ski, although I haven't gotten up there yet this year. 

All places are facing difficulties and sacrifices with the weather, as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy to be at K.


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 8, 2012)

Nick said:


> I grew up skiing Killington every year and was a passholder for many years. Killington still remains one of my favorite places to ski, although I haven't gotten up there yet this year.
> 
> All places are facing difficulties and sacrifices with the weather, as far as I'm concerned. I'd be happy to be at K.



+1


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## MadPatSki (Feb 8, 2012)

Repost from the other K thread.

First off, I was never a K regular...well, only in the Spring when skiing ended in June a, what it seems to be, a long time ago.

K made some bad decision which didn't put the skiing first. I generally don't participate in these thread, cuz I don't care anymore. I've written tons of posts maybe 7-8 years ago about K failings. Nothing is new and nothing is going to cease to amaze me.

K = no more June 1st slalom
K = no more longest season
K = missing the May 1st slalom
K = major expert run still haven't seen any snowmaking
K = no more Bear Mtn Mogul Challenge

How many strikes do you need to see that K is an EPIC FAIL.



skiersleft said:


> I propose a 6 month ban on K= epic fail threads. :flame:



Better yet, I proposed a ban on new topics AND a sticky on one that says that K is an EPIC FAIL. Everyone is happy.


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## Geoff (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't think the current Killington management understands how much damage they're doing by not blowing snow on all their expert trails.   In the past, you picked Killington as the place for your share house and season pass because it minimized the risk in a bad season; and the lengthy season added a perception of value.   That core base is what creates the critical mass to pull in the day ticket people.   Killington is a huge, sprawling place that is very expensive to cover with man made snow.   If you don't get the business volume, you can't justify making the snow.   The resort goes into a death spiral.

I'm trapped since I own real estate.   Anybody who rents can go elsewhere.   Most of the Boston market has already deserted ship and buys Boyne passes.   That's millions of dollars of incremental revenue removed from the bottom line.   The metro-NYC market has fewer options but Vermont skier visits have been flat for 6 years as Killington has lost several hundred thousand skier visits so they're obviously going elsewhere.   As my friend Rogman says, "I've never heard of a business plan where you intentionally set out to lose market share."


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

Geoff said:


> I don't think the current Killington management understands how much damage they're doing by not blowing snow on all their expert trails. In the past, you picked Killington as the place for your share house and season pass because it minimized the risk in a bad season; and the lengthy season added a perception of value. That core base is what creates the critical mass to pull in the day ticket people. Killington is a huge, sprawling place that is very expensive to cover with man made snow. If you don't get the business volume, you can't justify making the snow. The resort goes into a death spiral.
> 
> I'm trapped since I own real estate. Anybody who rents can go elsewhere. Most of the Boston market has already deserted ship and buys Boyne passes. That's millions of dollars of incremental revenue removed from the bottom line. The metro-NYC market has fewer options but Vermont skier visits have been flat for 6 years as Killington has lost several hundred thousand skier visits so they're obviously going elsewhere. As my friend Rogman says, "I've never heard of a business plan where you intentionally set out to lose market share."


 
One of the main reasons I stick with Killington is the variety and the durablity in a bad snow year.  If they just give up when the weather isn't in their favor, or schedule events that waste resources, that's one more reason I should be looking at skiing sugarbush, or somewhere else.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> One of the main reasons I stick with Killington is the variety and the durablity in a bad snow year.  If they just give up when the weather isn't in their favor, *or schedule events that waste resources*, that's one more reason I should be looking at skiing sugarbush, or somewhere else.


Like I said in an earlier post Stratton is doing the same thing as K had to do for the DEW Tour since they are hosting the U.S. Open early next month. Just as much snow making resources are being devoted to creating the 1/2 pipe & other features as Killington had to devote to creating theirs. Difference is Stratton hasn't taken away snow making effort from the rest of the mountain.


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## oakapple (Feb 8, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Stratton is doing the same thing as K had to do for the DEW Tour since they are hosting the U.S. Open early next month. Just as much snow making resources are being devoted to creating the 1/2 pipe & other features as Killington had to devote to creating theirs. Difference is Stratton hasn't taken away snow making effort from the rest of the mountain.



Timing makes a huge difference. The Dew Tour came to Killington relatively early in the season, while Stratton is hosting the U. S. Open relatively late.


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## Rogman (Feb 8, 2012)

One of life's little ironies is that often a shrinking business can be more profitable in the short term than one that is expanding. A growing business requires continued re-investment to sustain that growth, whereas a shinking one has no such issues. Now I don't really think K is shrinking in the classic sense, but their dominance of the marketplace has certainly waned. They've shown a sad willingness to be nothing more than just another New England resort, excellence, when it comes at a cost, has gone by the wayside.

This is a year when every resort is struggling: Mother Nature has dealt them all a pretty dismal hand. I'm sure by the time the season is over, skier visits in the North East will be off by 10%, or even more. However some resorts will lose a greater percentage than average, others less. As always, but particularly in a season such as this, skiers and riders will flock to an area that they perceive has better conditions and offers better value.

The lack of snow stresses the equilibrium; people are more willing to move, to try another mountain. A bad season is in fact, an opportunity. It is much easier to look good against the competition when you're a 100% open with great conditions, and they're not.

Some resorts are just struggling to survive; I don't blame them for hunkering down and just riding out the season. Killington is not in that category, however. By their short term view of profitability, I think they've squandered an opportunity for long term growth. Simply put: blowing more snow, running more lifts, doing all the things a first class resort does, may decrease this years numbers, but provide a better basis for long term growth. And that applies not just to Killington, but to any resort.


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## threecy (Feb 8, 2012)

A very significant portion of variable (ie through the window) sales are made Christmas Week, Martin Luther King Weekend, and President's Week.

Two of those three revenue centers have come and passed without banner snowfall or crowds.  The final one is 10 days away.

President's Week will need some sort of snow event to make it a big money maker.  So, we have a few possible outcomes:

- Killington dumps six figures into snowmaking, no snow event happens, numbers stay down.
- Killington dumps six figures into snowmaking, a snow event happens, the snowmaking probably ends up being an unnecessary expense.
or
- Killington cuts back snowmaking, no snow event happens, operating obligations are met.
- Killington cuts back snowmaking, a snow event happens, more trails open, and the crowds come.

The way this season is going, the latter may be the best decision.  It would take one heck of a March to rebound if President's Week is a relative bust.  That hypothetical one heck of a March would cover the trails in plenty of natural, so a big snowmaking expense now wouldn't be needed.


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## oakapple (Feb 8, 2012)

Rogman said:


> Now I don't really think K is shrinking in the classic sense, but their dominance of the marketplace has certainly waned. They've shown a sad willingness to be nothing more than just another New England resort, excellence, when it comes at a cost, has gone by the wayside.


I'm not sure what "classic" shrinkage would be; perhaps taking terrain off the map, which last occurred in the 1990s, when the Northeast Passage and upper Ramshead closed.

But the loss of the South Ridge Triple certainly must be counted as shrinkage. That trail pod has been closed for most of this year, and even when open, you basically get one shot at it, and it's probably a 30-45 minute trip back up to the top if you want to ski it again. They might as well have chopped that terrain off the map. (I believe some of the South Ridge trails _did_ get snowmaking in years past.)

On top of that, there are lifts that used to run on weekdays and no longer do.

Then you add the trails where snowmaking capability exists, but none has been blown, and you're looking at a drastically reduced Killington. This year, it is no longer the Beast of the East by any remotely conceivable definition. About the only point in their favor is that they were the first to open and _stay_ open, but October feels like an awfully long time ago.


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I'm not sure what "classic" shrinkage would be; perhaps taking terrain off the map, which last occurred in the 1990s, when the Northeast Passage and upper Ramshead closed.
> 
> But the loss of the South Ridge Triple certainly must be counted as shrinkage. That trail pod has been closed for most of this year, and even when open, you basically get one shot at it, and it's probably a 30-45 minute trip back up to the top if you want to ski it again. They might as well have chopped that terrain off the map. (I believe some of the South Ridge trails _did_ get snowmaking in years past.)
> 
> ...


 
Deleting the Devils Fiddle quad also counts as shrinkage.


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## millerm277 (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Deleting the Devils Fiddle quad also counts as shrinkage.



I'd give them a pass on that one. It was useless since the demise of the Northeast Passage, and they upgraded the Skye Peak Quad to a HS at the same time, which makes it "even" in my mind.


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## oakapple (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Deleting the Devils Fiddle quad also counts as shrinkage.



I was never there when the DFQ was open, but it served no unique terrain, so the only effect of its deletion is a slightly longer line at the Bear Mountain Quad, which usually doesn't have much of a line anyway.

The loss of the third stage of Skyeship (which originally went to the Peak) is far more annoying, as without it you have to travel quite some distance to get back to the base of the K1.

Nyberg's response on the Alpine Zone Challenge suggests that there are no plans to even consider a second route to the summit, which a resort Killington's size really should have.


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

threecy said:


> A very significant portion of variable (ie through the window) sales are made Christmas Week, Martin Luther King Weekend, and President's Week.
> 
> Two of those three revenue centers have come and passed without banner snowfall or crowds. The final one is 10 days away.
> 
> ...


 
Wooooohoooooo!!!! Threecry is here with one of his *classic Straw Man Arguements!!! *Now it's really a Killington thread.

Let's take a moment to understand what a straw man is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Too bad you FAIL to recognize the two most reasonable and likely senarios, which do not involve straw men or other distortions.

- Killington blows snow, opens trails, creates hype, thus increasing skier visits and revenues. Like they have done in the past.

- Killington does jack squat and offers 70 trails of "refinished" AKA icy, dangerous, not fun, ice-gnar surface. No hype, no interest, internet backlash galore, and much reduced skier visits.....they lose vacation visits to Okemo or Sugarbush, etc.

*Natural snowfall is irrelevant to this discusson.* These trails need snowmaking regardless of natural snowfall. Killington was never supposed to be dependant on natural snow, especially for a holiday week, infact, quite the opposite.

If they have the current conditions for presidents day weekend, I think there will be seriously reduced skier visits and major damage to their brand when people actually see what they are offering for $86 a day.


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

millerm277 said:


> I'd give them a pass on that one. It was useless since the demise of the Northeast Passage, and they upgraded the Skye Peak Quad to a HS at the same time, which makes it "even" in my mind.


 


oakapple said:


> I was never there when the DFQ was open, but it served no unique terrain, so the only effect of its deletion is a slightly longer line at the Bear Mountain Quad, which usually doesn't have much of a line anyway.


 
Actually, it is a shrinkage in that Bear used to be able to handle at least 1000 more skiers at one time, with full snowmaking and moguls on the fiddle and OL.  Now we are down to 1/2 snowmaking on OL.  Lame.


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## oakapple (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Actually, it is a shrinkage in that Bear used to be able to handle at least 1000 more skiers at one time, with full snowmaking and moguls on the fiddle and OL.  Now we are down to 1/2 snowmaking on OL.  Lame.



Right, but you are confusing separate issues. They could make more snow at Bear without needing the Devil's Fiddle quad to handle the load. Even with the Fiddle open, the Bear Mountain Quad can handle the load.


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

oakapple said:


> Right, but you are confusing separate issues. They could make more snow at Bear without needing the Devil's Fiddle quad to handle the load. Even with the Fiddle open, the Bear Mountain Quad can handle the load.


 
You're missing the point.  With the DF and more snowmaking, which they used to have, they had much more capcacity at bear.  This has been massively reduced.   The mountain has shrunk.


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## oakapple (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> You're missing the point.  With the DF and more snowmaking, which they used to have, they had much more capcacity at bear.  This has been massively reduced.   The mountain has shrunk.



When the Bear trails were fully open, the DF Quad was still not needed. It was totally superfluous. The Bear trails could be restored to whatever you're thinking they used to be, and they wouldn't need that quad.


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## threecy (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> *Natural snowfall is irrelevant to this discusson.*



Pres Smith would laugh at that statement.  When it's 50+ degrees in Boston/New York, and when there hasn't been significant new snow in Vermont, skier visits will suffer, even if Killington goes RTC between now and next Saturday.


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## St. Bear (Feb 8, 2012)

FWIW, one of my friends is driving up to K from NJ this weekend with his girlfriend.  He's exactly the casual skier that resorts are fighting over.  He considered Okemo, but he's going to K because of its reputation and the apres scene.


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

threecy said:


> Pres Smith would laugh at that statement. When it's 50+ degrees in Boston/New York, and when there hasn't been significant new snow in Vermont, skier visits will suffer, even if Killington goes RTC between now and next Saturday.


 
Put away your distortions and straw men. Pres Smith laughs at you. 

Smith's and Killington's reputation was built on blowing snow as much as possible. Killington had mega visits even in bad snow years because the were the place for reliable snowmaking. 

The new owners have lost that reputation, quickly, especially with rise of the internet. It doesn't take much to compare Killington's and Okemo's snow reports, and decide where to book your holiday weekend. Dig a little deeper, and you just may find some interesting info on facebook or internet forums.

http://www.okemo.com/okemowinter/ourmountain/snowreport.asp



> Good morning Okemo skiers and riders. We are looking at *sunny skies and temps in the low 30s* with machine groomed and loose granular conditions. Currently the base temp is 9 degrees and 5 degrees on the summit.
> 
> *Snowmaking resumed last night*, adding additional coverage to *Mountain Road, Sunset Strip, Quantum Leap, Vortex, and Wardance*. Woohoo! Snow dance to that! Snowmaking will continue today on Quantum Leap, Vortex, and Wardance.
> 
> *84 trails and 11 lifts* will be open today for you, your family, and friends starting at 9 a.m. Upper Chief, Chute, and Lower Chief will be on hold for race training.


 
http://www.killington.com/winter/mountain/conditions



> Forecasts are calling for more bluebird skies on Wednesday, and we will be soaking up the sunshine while cruising all the way down 3,050 vertical feet to the Skyeship base.
> 
> Killington’s world-class groomers will be taking to our 450+ acres on Tuesday night, so expect fresh corduroy on 60 trails. *They plan to be renovating* Caper, Upper Skyelark, Bear Claw, Lower Bittersweet, Bear Trax and Lower Skyeburst, which means a whole new snow surface for Wednesday.


 
*SERIOUSLY?????*


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## St. Bear (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Put away your distortions and straw men. Pres Smith laughs at you.
> 
> Smith's and Killington's reputation was built on blowing snow as much as possible. Killington had mega visits even in bad snow years because the were the place for reliable snowmaking.
> 
> ...



I bet if you took a poll of people as they got on the K Gondola, 95% would say there is no difference between making snow on a trail and "renovating" a trail.


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> FWIW, one of my friends is driving up to K from NJ this weekend with his girlfriend. He's exactly the casual skier that resorts are fighting over. He considered Okemo, but he's going to K because of its reputation and the apres scene.


 
Exactly. And it's quite true that Killington still draws people specifically because of the scene, and perception of challenging terrain.  When they find out that none of it is open....well......


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## Highway Star (Feb 8, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> I bet if you took a poll of people as they got on the K Gondola, 95% would say there is no difference between making snow on a trail and "renovating" a trail.


 
Its pretty slimy for them to say it the way they have been on the report.  Clearly a distortion.  But anyone paying attention knows they are simply tilling the trail with a groomer.  lol.


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## neil (Feb 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> http://www.okemo.com/okemowinter/ourmountain/snowreport.asp
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They made snow at Wachusett last night on 5 trails. Fail by Killington.


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## Black Phantom (Feb 8, 2012)

Opening the SkyeShip a half hour late is a real shame.


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## Angus (Feb 8, 2012)

HighwayStar, I assume you will be taking your business elsewhere next year or are you a local? I skied Killington the day after New Years and the skiing was pretty miserable but it was due to not trying just weather - a couple days of rain followed by a hard freeze.


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## kingslug (Feb 8, 2012)

I could go to K this Sunday for about 100.00 on a bus trip..I'm going to spend about 150.00 going to Hunter...that says a lot...and I've been to K twice on that same bus trip so far this year...meh.it..is..what  it is...


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 8, 2012)

St. Bear said:


> I bet if you took a poll of people as they got on the K Gondola, 95% would say there is no difference between making snow on a trail and "renovating" a trail.



I bet if you took that poll then 95% would say "what the heck is _renovating_ a trail?"


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## bobbutts (Feb 8, 2012)

How many of us here would recommend Killington for Feb Vacation next year if a family with kids asked?  Does giving up in early feb in a snowless year affect that recommendation, for me, yes.


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## Tin (Feb 8, 2012)

I could never figure out why so many loved Killington anyway, this just adds to my reasons to not visit.


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## oakapple (Feb 9, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> How many of us here would recommend Killington for Feb Vacation next year if a family with kids asked?  Does giving up in early feb in a snowless year affect that recommendation, for me, yes.



I don't make my skiing plans 12 months in advance; do you?. Based on the terrain open NOW, I would not recommend Killington. But next year could be different.


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## drjeff (Feb 9, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> How many of us here would recommend Killington for Feb Vacation next year if a family with kids asked?  Does giving up in early feb in a snowless year affect that recommendation, for me, yes.



Considering the number of of hill activities that the greater Killington area offers families,  I'd still recommend K for Feb vacation week to a family.  You gotta remember the needs/wants of an "average" family for a ski week put a GREAT deal of significance on what opportunities are available for the kids for all the hours a day that they're not on the hill as well as when they're on the hill


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## bobbutts (Feb 9, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I don't make my skiing plans 12 months in advance; do you?. Based on the terrain open NOW, I would not recommend Killington. But next year could be different.



Nope, most of the time I plan it out when I wake up on my day off.  I'm a day tripper.

I do get asked by friends and relatives who get out once per year and plan it 6 months ahead though.  In my experience that's how a large percentage of the skiing public plans their vacations.


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## Highway Star (Feb 9, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> Nope, most of the time I plan it out when I wake up on my day off. I'm a day tripper.
> 
> I do get asked by friends and relatives who get out once per year and plan it 6 months ahead though. In my experience that's how a large percentage of the skiing public plans their vacations.


 
And that's exactly why Killington has lost premium market share to Okemo and Stratton. 

Killington used to be the one with the best recovery, and have the most terrain regardless of weather. ASC understood that, even when broke they would ask for more snowmaking money from corporate in a bad snow year, and almost every thing would see snowmaking.  These new guys......meh.  Clearly they stopped making snow in any meaningful way right after the dew tour.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 9, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> And that's exactly why Killington has lost premium market share to Okemo and Stratton.
> 
> Killington used to be the one with the best recovery, and have the most terrain regardless of weather. ASC understood that, even when broke they would ask for more snowmaking money from corporate in a bad snow year, and almost every thing would see snowmaking.  These new guys......meh.  Clearly they stopped making snow in any meaningful way right after the dew tour.



And what really differentiates Killington from Stratton and Okemo is the double blacks. Without them, why drive the extra distance to get to Killington?


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 9, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> And that's exactly why Killington has lost premium market share to Okemo and Stratton.
> 
> Killington used to be the one with the best recovery, and have the most terrain regardless of weather. ASC understood that, even when broke they would ask for more snowmaking money from corporate in a bad snow year, and almost every thing would see snowmaking.  These new guys......meh.  Clearly they stopped making snow in any meaningful way right after the dew tour.



Did you really just defend ASC....Thats a joke in itself.... ASC killed the place! You have not skied K long enough to know the great days of k.


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## Vortex (Feb 9, 2012)

Guns are still blazing at the River and we did get advanced terrain snow making.  I think limited snow making on advanced terrain would bother me a bit too, but  Who made more snow than them in Vt? Okemo maybe, but they started much later. Its all in what you are use to.  Many mountains have very limited terrain right now.

I understand the property owner views.  Its money and free time. Its What we all strive for.


 I am big Sr guy, but K still has fantastic terrrain and makes more snow than almost anywhere else.  In Vermont it was Mad River, K or Sugarbush for me.  Bush if a big natural snow year. K if not. Mad river when there was fresh snow.  

We will all feel better when we get our first 2 foot storm.  We  always get one during NH vaction week.


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## mister moose (Feb 9, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> And what really differentiates Killington from Stratton and Okemo is the double blacks. Without them, why drive the extra distance to get to Killington?



Personally, I'm thankful for the thousands of people that feel that way.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 9, 2012)

mister moose said:


> Personally, I'm thankful for the thousands of people that feel that way.



ditto


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## 2knees (Feb 9, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Considering the number of of hill activities that the greater Killington area offers families,  I'd still recommend K for Feb vacation week to a family.  You gotta remember the needs/wants of an "average" family for a ski week put a GREAT deal of significance on what opportunities are available for the kids for all the hours a day that they're not on the hill as well as when they're on the hill



I'm curious, besides skiing what does k offer?  there is no village or central area that most bigtime resorts have.  I take my kids there but only when we stay at our neighbors house up there.  Otherwise, we avoid K because of the lack of non skiing activities.

This is not a knock on the mountain itself or the nightlife or any of that.  I'm talking about 5 thru 10 yo kids.


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## Highway Star (Feb 9, 2012)

ALLSKIING said:


> Did you really just defend ASC....Thats a joke in itself.... ASC killed the place! You have not skied K long enough to know the great days of k.


 
I first skied Killington in 1987.....soooo.

In recent memory, the last few years of ASC had largely bad weather, but they were still able to open Downdraft and Dipper.


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## ALLSKIING (Feb 9, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> In 8 years being a regular at Killington





Highway Star said:


> I first skied Killington in 1987.....soooo.


Ok a regular long enough.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 9, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> And what really differentiates Killington from Stratton and Okemo is the double blacks. Without them, why drive the extra distance to get to Killington?





mister moose said:


> Personally, I'm thankful for the thousands of people that feel that way.



It sounds like you do not agree. I thought about it, and I did forget about K's nightlife being significantly better. Was that It?

Other than the steeps and the nightlife, what really makes K worth the extra drive past Okemo and Stratton?

Fact is, the main reason K is more popular that Sugarbush (which certainly has the steeps) is the shorter drive.


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## mister moose (Feb 9, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> It sounds like you do not agree. I thought about it, and I did forget about K's nightlife being significantly better. Was that It?
> 
> Other than the steeps and the nightlife, what really makes K worth the extra drive past Okemo and Stratton?
> 
> Fact is, the main reason K is more popular that Sugarbush (which certainly has the steeps) is the shorter drive.



It was a simple statement on the current level of crowding at Killington, or on many days, the lack of it.  If the masses drove the extra hour to Killington, I'd have to drive farther north another hour myself.  

I've skied Mt Snow and Okemo enough to know that the terrain (not just the steeps), the crowding, the powder day grooming policy, the restaurants, the snowfall, and the latitude are all not the best choice for me.


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## Highway Star (Feb 9, 2012)

Well, they groomed OL.  Now it's 37% open:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34221

SERIOUSLY???


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## mediamogul (Feb 9, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Well, they groomed OL.  Now it's 37% open:
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34221
> 
> SERIOUSLY???



Man I'm just happy I didn't have to watch them groom the Fiddle this year. I've given up on OL at this point. Better bumps to be found elsewhere. No Vertigo though!!! What the hell!


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## Black Phantom (Feb 9, 2012)

mediamogul said:


> Man I'm just happy I didn't have to watch them groom the Fiddle this year. I've given up on OL at this point. Better bumps to be found elsewhere. No Vertigo though!!! What the hell!



Where?


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## mediamogul (Feb 9, 2012)

Black Phantom said:


> Where?



At this exact moment you'd have a hard time finding a decent bump line anywhere on the hill. Saw a pic of OL midweek this week where it was actually bumped up, report showing it as groomed so I'm sure that will be its weekend condition. This season only decent bump lines I've seen have been on west glade, escapade, vagabond, northstar and mouse trap. Oh and surprise showing early season on upper east fall right after they turned off the guns. That was nice.


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## Highway Star (Feb 9, 2012)

mediamogul said:


> Man I'm just happy I didn't have to watch them groom the Fiddle this year. I've given up on OL at this point. Better bumps to be found elsewhere. No Vertigo though!!! What the hell!



Every time I look at or think of OL this year I throw up in my mouth a little bit.
uke::idea:


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## mediamogul (Feb 9, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Every time I look at or think of OL this year I throw up in my mouth a little bit.
> uke::idea:



Lost cause. (cue sad Charlie Brown music)

I'm trying hard not to think of how amazing the Fiddle was last year in the spring. 65 degree bluebird day on that southern exposure skiing in a tee shirt. One of the best days I had on skis all year.

I can't imagine what this spring will be like...

I hope they at least resurface some of the trails President's week. I doubt very much that we will see new trails added to the roster, especially blacks, barring a big dump.


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## Black Phantom (Feb 10, 2012)

mediamogul said:


> Lost cause. (cue sad Charlie Brown music)
> 
> I'm trying hard not to think of how amazing the Fiddle was last year in the spring. 65 degree bluebird day on that southern exposure skiing in a tee shirt. One of the best days I had on skis all year.
> 
> ...



Killington does not _"re-surface"_ trails, they _"renovate"_.  

Whoever came up with that needs a solid beating. Roland Martin style.


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## mediamogul (Feb 10, 2012)

Black Phantom said:


> Killington does not _"re-surface"_ trails, they _"renovate"_.
> 
> Whoever came up with that needs a solid beating. Roland Martin style.



Yeah I saw them ripping up the carpet and tearing down the dry wall on Bittersweet...


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## dangah (Feb 10, 2012)

Black Phantom said:


> Killington does not _"re-surface"_ trails, they _"renovate"_.
> 
> Whoever came up with that needs a solid beating. Roland Martin style.



Renovating refers to a technique used in grooming, using specialized equipment, to get more air into the snow surface. Resurfacing refers to snowmaking again over existing open terrain.


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## Highway Star (Feb 10, 2012)

dangah said:


> Renovating refers to a technique used in grooming, using specialized equipment, to get more air into the snow surface. Resurfacing refers to snowmaking again over existing open terrain.


 
Seems to be pretty exclusive to Killington........:sad:

How about more of this................


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## dangah (Feb 10, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Seems to be pretty exclusive to Killington........:sad:
> 
> How about more of this................



Not exclusive at all. 

Snowmaking is currently going on Superstar and Cascade with spot guns running around the mountain.


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## skiur (Feb 10, 2012)

dangah said:


> Not exclusive at all.
> 
> Snowmaking is currently going on Superstar and Cascade with spot guns running around the mountain.



Ive never heard it before, sounds like some clever BS to me, also how many guns on superstar and cascade? 5 guns on the top of superstar dont count.


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## Highway Star (Feb 10, 2012)

dangah said:


> Not exclusive at all.
> 
> Snowmaking is currently going on Superstar and Cascade with spot guns running around the mountain.


 
Downdraft and Dipper next? Or are they working on the superstar "glacier"?


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 10, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Downdraft and Dipper next? Or are they working on the superstar "glacier"?



Definitely seems like just resurfacing and stockpiling -- with no expansion in sight.


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## mediamogul (Feb 10, 2012)

The report says that they seeded bumps on Mouse Trap and resurfaced. Looks like Conclusion is gone for the weekend too barring some snow. I doubt they would resurface it from this point on. You know its been an awful year when K still has the guns blazing in February. I do like the fact that they have continued to resurface though, without that I can't imagine what shape the hill would be in.


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## bigbob (Feb 10, 2012)

Skied Killington the last 3 days. Overall, not bad considering the winter we have had. Still some slick spots. Superstar base building in progress all day with 37 guns going. Just above the lower headwall right to the top. Top had 6 guns going, already a good stockpile up there. 
 A few more guns going on lower Cascade also. I would not hesitate to ski the Beast this weekend, just dress warm for Sunday.


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## dangah (Feb 11, 2012)

bigbob said:


> Skied Killington the last 3 days. Overall, not bad considering the winter we have had. Still some slick spots. Superstar base building in progress all day with 37 guns going. Just above the lower headwall right to the top. Top had 6 guns going, already a good stockpile up there.
> A few more guns going on lower Cascade also. I would not hesitate to ski the Beast this weekend, just dress warm for Sunday.



Photo today of said :


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## skiur (Feb 11, 2012)

dangah said:


> Photo today of said :



keep that up for another week or 2 and the base depth should be where it belongs.


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## Newpylong (Feb 11, 2012)

In a suprising move, Mount Snow began making snow on Ripcord today. ASSumed there wasn't a chance of that opening this year. However, Plummet will understandably most likely not see a gun.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 11, 2012)

[/QUOTE]

Look at the throw on those guns compared to the newly installed low e guns on OL.


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## bigbob (Feb 12, 2012)

The wind also has something to do with that. The first day they ran the new guns on OL, the wind was out of the south, blowing alot of product into the woods.


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## mediamogul (Feb 12, 2012)

Skiied OL yesterday. Some decent bumps forming. The guns were on and only half of the trail, probably even less, could be considered to have gotten adequete coverage by the guns. It was a strange situation, skiing on the snowmaking mound skiers left that was noticeably higher than anything skiers right.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Feb 12, 2012)

think K and PWDR forgot they still own Pico to...guns done for the season..hard to stomach when you look across and see K still going....hear it has to do with the fact that Pico runs off electric and their deal with Quebec Hydro (25yr deal) ended this season now electic is $$$ for them to run the guns where K is running off diesel.....still hurts..having a fun season nonetheless, but having some more/different terrain would be nice week after week....praying for snow


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## dangah (Feb 15, 2012)

skiur said:


> Ive never heard it before, sounds like some clever BS to me, also how many guns on superstar and cascade? 5 guns on the top of superstar dont count.








Renovating is a term that our Mtn. Ops. guys use. Here is a photo of the "renovator" that is used in "renovating" trails, going down about 8-10". We then go over it with a regular tiller to smooth it out.


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## oakapple (Feb 15, 2012)

dangah said:


> Renovating is a term that our Mtn. Ops. guys use. Here is a photo of the "renovator" that is used in "renovating" trails, going down about 8-10". We then go over it with a regular tiller to smooth it out.



What seems to be happening here, is that the Killington skeptics assumed this was just a marketing term, apparently unaware that renovation is something that really exists, and is not just a gimmick.

Now, I'm sure that other ski areas do the same and don't expose the fact on their websites. That doesn't make it wrong for Killington to do so.


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## 180 (Feb 15, 2012)

Hunter has plenty of old renovators in the junk yard last time I passed on a powder day (whats that?)


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## 2knees (Feb 15, 2012)

dangah said:


>



looks like something out of Hellraiser


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## drjeff (Feb 15, 2012)

dangah said:


> Renovating is a term that our Mtn. Ops. guys use. Here is a photo of the "renovator" that is used in "renovating" trails, going down about 8-10". We then go over it with a regular tiller to smooth it out.



I wonder if I could borrow one of those in a few months when my wife's backyard garden needs the soil tilled prior to planting things??  Who cares if the Bombardier's/Prinoth's in that pick are way too big for the 12' x 10' garden we have!  It sure would be a blast to operate a cat!


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## mountainman (Feb 18, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I wonder if I could borrow one of those in a few months when my wife's backyard garden needs the soil tilled prior to planting things??  Who cares if the Bombardier's/Prinoth's in that pick are way too big for the 12' x 10' garden we have!  It sure would be a blast to operate a cat!



Yes the way they are setup they would work nice in the garden  Dr. Jeff, Don't know who set them up for them but they need to make some changes for them to work better in snow. They may work but they would work better with a few changes. Nice to see them being used by some one. Those are Mt. Tillers on the back of the tractor. Renovator goes on the front of the tractor.Have heard they have help tthe snow surface conditons some. any truth to that? Keep up the good work Killington.


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