# Ski Resort Response to COVID-19



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2020)

So for most the season is over.  

And for a lot of us, who are passholders, we are losing A LOT of the season.  Just wondering what your resorts are doing for passholders to make up for the lost portion of the season (if anything).  

Burke offered a $200 credit to passholders; $50 credit for those who had other products.


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## RichT (Mar 30, 2020)

Epic says wait till end of April


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## Edd (Mar 30, 2020)

I don’t know. I get the argument for a refund but smaller areas probably can ill afford refunds. I’d prefer to let it go and give them a stronger chance of remaining open. This was something not in their control, like bad spring weather. 


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## icecoast1 (Mar 30, 2020)

Except for places like Killington that offered special passes for spring, is there really a need to refund passes?   You had til mid march to use your pass, if you didn't get use out of it by then, that's on you


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## cdskier (Mar 30, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Except for places like Killington that offered special passes for spring, is there really a need to refund passes?   You had til mid march to use your pass, if you didn't get use out of it by then, that's on you



I agree. I "lost out" on 1.5 months roughly of potential skiing in the best case scenario IF the snow holds out to the typical start of May closing date for Sugarbush (that remains a big if looking at the forecast). Yet even so my cost per day on my pass was down to $18. Hard to say I didn't get my money's worth as is.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Except for places like Killington that offered special passes for spring, is there really a need to refund passes?   You had til mid march to use your pass, if you didn't get use out of it by then, that's on you



I agree.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 31, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Except for places like Killington that offered special passes for spring, is there really a need to refund passes?   You had til mid march to use your pass, if you didn't get use out of it by then, that's on you



totally agree.  I used my epic pass 46 times from mid-November to Mid March.  they don't owe me shit... The reality is that they closed my local place 1 day before planned. 

Was I going to use it more?  Absolutely I had planned on going to at least Jack Frost and maybe even somewhere further north through the end of March and into April.


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## fbrissette (Mar 31, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree.



As a Jay Peak pass holder, I expect to ski till early May, with generally good conditions till mid-April.  So cutting the season short has a definite impact on my skiing expectations and perceived value of my ski pass.

However, in extreme cases like this, I believe that the costs are to be shared by everyone, including the customer.   If Jay Peak was to issue a partial refund, it would have to be on the back of additional layoffs or diminished benefits for workers.  So I'm totally fine with getting no refund.

They have graciously offered the following for pass holders renewing next year, as well as extreme flexibility for refunds.  I think this is more than fair, as I don't believe they actually had to do any of that.




A Golf round, including cart (up to $105 value).
A day pass to the Pump House Indoor Waterpark ($41 value).
Two tickets to the Clips & Reels Movie Theatre ($10 value).
A transferable lift ticket for the 2020+21 Ski/Ride Season (up to $89 value).


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2020)

Edd said:


> I don’t know. I get the argument for a refund but smaller areas probably can ill afford refunds. I’d prefer to let it go and give them a stronger chance of remaining open. This was something not in their control, like bad spring weather.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone





icecoast1 said:


> Except for places like Killington that offered special passes for spring, is there really a need to refund passes?   You had til mid march to use your pass, if you didn't get use out of it by then, that's on you





cdskier said:


> I agree. I "lost out" on 1.5 months roughly of potential skiing in the best case scenario IF the snow holds out to the typical start of May closing date for Sugarbush (that remains a big if looking at the forecast). Yet even so my cost per day on my pass was down to $18. Hard to say I didn't get my money's worth as is.





jimmywilson69 said:


> totally agree.  I used my epic pass 46 times from mid-November to Mid March.  they don't owe me shit... The reality is that they closed my local place 1 day before planned.
> 
> Was I going to use it more?  Absolutely I had planned on going to at least Jack Frost and maybe even somewhere further north through the end of March and into April.



To be clear, I am not starting a debate as to what resorts should or should not do.  

I was more interested to hear what areas are offering to their passholders.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 31, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> They have graciously offered the following for pass holders renewing next year, as well as extreme flexibility for refunds.



I had 4 prepaid lift tickets I planned to use on vacation this week, they're honoring them until 12/24/20.   Would rather they be honored late-season instead, but better than nothing.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I had 4 prepaid lift tickets I planned to use on vacation this week, they're honoring them until 12/24/20.   Would rather they be honored late-season instead, but better than nothing.



A lot of places are doing that. Better than nothing is right. 


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## medfordmike (Mar 31, 2020)

Pico and Killington sent an email yesterday to passholders saying they will be in touch in May with their approach to the season ending early.  I am a regular season pass holder at Pico so for K Spring passes any news could be on a different timeline.

https://www.picomountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-info/coronavirus-impact


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## JimG. (Mar 31, 2020)

medfordmike said:


> Pico and Killington sent an email yesterday to passholders saying they will be in touch in May with their approach to the season ending early.  I am a regular season pass holder at Pico so for K Spring passes any news could be on a different timeline.
> 
> https://www.picomountain.com/the-mountain/mountain-info/coronavirus-impact



While I am expecting nothing because the season ended early I got the K email yesterday also and thought that while it is totally unnecessary for me it shows a lot of class that they are even considering doing anything. 

Whatever they offer me will only reinforce my desire to purchase another K pass for next season. And that is brilliant marketing.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 31, 2020)

JimG. said:


> While I am expecting nothing because the season ended early I got the K email yesterday also and thought that while it is totally unnecessary for me it shows a lot of class that they are even considering doing anything.
> 
> Whatever they offer me will only reinforce my desire to purchase another K pass for next season. And that is brilliant marketing.



Agreed.  I think a lot of resorts are trying to make this a positive.


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## Smellytele (Mar 31, 2020)

JimG. said:


> While I am expecting nothing because the season ended early I got the K email yesterday also and thought that while it is totally unnecessary for me it shows a lot of class that they are even considering doing anything.
> 
> Whatever they offer me will only reinforce my desire to purchase another K pass for next season. And that is brilliant marketing.



You’re buying one anyway no reinforcement needed


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2020)

I believe that Sugarbush will allow you to use your unused quad packs up to Christmas of next year.


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## medfordmike (Mar 31, 2020)

JimG. said:


> While I am expecting nothing because the season ended early I got the K email yesterday also and thought that while it is totally unnecessary for me it shows a lot of class that they are even considering doing anything.
> 
> Whatever they offer me will only reinforce my desire to purchase another K pass for next season. And that is brilliant marketing.


Totally agreed. But in a Pico context : -)


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## Harvey (Apr 1, 2020)

A seasons pass is an exchange.

The mountain gets your money up front, and you get a CHANCE at a cost/day that is lower than the walk up rate.

It's not a guarantee. 

It could rain all season. You could lose your job. Your could get sick. You could die.

For something out of the mountain's control, they don't owe you anything.

They could choose to do something, for a marketing advantage vs competitors or whatever.  But they don't owe you squat.

OP, or anyone, what was your cost per day this season? How does it compare to the rack rate?


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## machski (Apr 1, 2020)

Sunday River did a hard reverse course today and all use of the mountain is now prohibited and if you access, it will be considered trespassing.  Further, all of their Lodging establishments they control are now closed UFN.

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## Zermatt (Apr 1, 2020)

The only people that deserve refunds or credits are for prepaid day tickets (10 packs, etc) and special passes like the the Killington spring pass.

Everybody else with a full season pass that complains should just suck it.  Actually, If I was a manager at a resort I'd offer some sort of a refund for the complainers....but permanently ban them from skiing there again.  Any credit or discount on the next season is just a gift, and I continue to believe that this may not be over by next ski season.  Does anybody have the magic cure yet?  Guess what, there isn't one as of today.

Season passes offer an incredible discount with no set guarantee on season length or getting the maximum value possible.  We've been lucky in the east but many resorts in California have gotten nuked on and off the past few seasons will almost no snow and have closed way earlier than normal.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 1, 2020)

Harvey said:


> A seasons pass is an exchange.
> 
> The mountain gets your money up front, and you get a CHANCE at a cost/day that is lower than the walk up rate.
> 
> ...



Again, that’s not the point of this thread....


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## gregnye (Apr 3, 2020)

I'm definitely paying the extra $40 to get Pass Insurance on my Ikon next year.

There's no telling when this COVID-19 thing will end. And even if it ends, I expect there to be a second wave next winter.

On that note, I'm sure the lawyers of IKON and EPIC right now are re-writing the pass insurance fine print for next year so that people can't be refunded if COVID-19 continues. I mean the insurance industry motto is "pay us, then when you need a refund we'll tell you why your payment doesn't cover anything".


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## icecoast1 (Apr 3, 2020)

gregnye said:


> I'm definitely paying the extra $40 to get Pass Insurance on my Ikon next year.
> 
> There's no telling when this COVID-19 thing will end. And even if it ends, I expect there to be a second wave next winter.
> 
> On that note, I'm sure the lawyers of IKON and EPIC right now are re-writing the pass insurance fine print for next year so that people can't be refunded if COVID-19 continues. I mean the insurance industry motto is "pay us, then when you need a refund we'll tell you why your payment doesn't cover anything".





Or you can just wait til the fall (pay a slightly higher price) and see where this goes before spending hundreds or thousands on passes.   The beauty of the free market.


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## fbrissette (Apr 3, 2020)

gregnye said:


> I'm definitely paying the extra $40 to get Pass Insurance on my Ikon next year.
> 
> There's no telling when this COVID-19 thing will end. And even if it ends, I expect there to be a second wave next winter.
> 
> On that note, I'm sure the lawyers of IKON and EPIC right now are re-writing the pass insurance fine print for next year so that people can't be refunded if COVID-19 continues. I mean the insurance industry motto is "pay us, then when you need a refund we'll tell you why your payment doesn't cover anything".



Jay Peak offers a no-questions-asked refund till October 1st.  You can therfore lock in the best rate and wait and see.   

The end will be in sight when there is a widely available vaccine or when at least 60% of the population has been infected, which ever comes first.


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## Zermatt (Apr 4, 2020)

gregnye said:


> I'm definitely paying the extra $40 to get Pass Insurance on my Ikon next year.
> 
> There's no telling when this COVID-19 thing will end. And even if it ends, I expect there to be a second wave next winter.
> 
> On that note, I'm sure the lawyers of IKON and EPIC right now are re-writing the pass insurance fine print for next year so that people can't be refunded if COVID-19 continues. I mean the insurance industry motto is "pay us, then when you need a refund we'll tell you why your payment doesn't cover anything".



Pass insurance would not cover this, not in the past not now.  If you got sick and couldn't ski pass insurance might help.  If the resort closes pass insurance does not protect you.

Your jab at the insurance industry indicates you've been burned before for not fully understanding what is not covered.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Burke offered a $200 credit to passholders; $50 credit for those who had other products.



Huh?  

From their website: IF YOUR HOUSEHOLD PASS PURCHASE LAST YEAR WAS $489 OR MORE YOU WILL RECEIVE A $100 CREDIT. ALL OTHER PASS PURCHASES WILL RECEIVE A $50 CREDIT.


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## Zermatt (Apr 5, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Huh?
> 
> From their website: IF YOUR HOUSEHOLD PASS PURCHASE LAST YEAR WAS $489 OR MORE YOU WILL RECEIVE A $100 CREDIT. ALL OTHER PASS PURCHASES WILL RECEIVE A $50 CREDIT.



Seems very fair and generous to me considering they legally obligated to $0 worth of credit.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 5, 2020)

billo said:


> Seems very fair and generous to me considering they legally obligated to $0 worth of credit.



I wasn’t suggesting otherwise.


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## Zermatt (Apr 5, 2020)

Not suggesting any suggestions.

For Ikon I don't expect any sort of credit, but would happily accept.

But if they want me to buy one for next season they are basically going to have to escrow my money until November with a refund period if this isn't under control. Or give me a huge discount with no guarantees.

The days of prepaying for anything are pretty much dead unless you are willing to part with your money.


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## prsboogie (Apr 6, 2020)

gregnye said:


> I'm definitely paying the extra $40 to get Pass Insurance on my Ikon next year.
> 
> There's no telling when this COVID-19 thing will end. And even if it ends, I expect there to be a second wave next winter.
> 
> On that note, I'm sure the lawyers of IKON and EPIC right now are re-writing the pass insurance fine print for next year so that people can't be refunded if COVID-19 continues. I mean the insurance industry motto is "pay us, then when you need a refund we'll tell you why your payment doesn't cover anything".


If there is no season then they have to refund regardless of insurance. You are paying for a service and if they can't supply said service then you get your money back. 

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## machski (Apr 9, 2020)

Looks like someone killed the "are we skiing 20-21" thread.  So I'll park this here as our friends in the southern hemisphere are prepping for their 2020 season now.  This email from Mt. Ruapehu in New Zealand sounds ominous:

Tēnā koutou katoa,



As New Zealand continues to adjust to life under the COVID-19 alert level 4 and as we head into week three of lockdown, we want to update you on what our teams have been working through and the potential impact this could have on our business.



We have been busy modelling the potential impact COVID-19 may have on the coming winter using various scenarios based on the government's Alert Levels. The worst-case scenario of not being able to open for winter would mean a loss, and an increase in debt for RAL that is unacceptably high for both us and our Bank. The current uncertainty around lockdown levels means that we are currently working on whether it is possible to commit to the pre-winter costs of contracting labour and preparing the mountain, to at least keep the option open of skiing when we can. This is a month by month judgement that we will make in tandem with our Bank.



With the current lockdown and uncertainty around the reduction in alert levels we have paused as much expenditure as is practical whilst keeping the business operating. Our team has made sacrifices themselves to set RAL up for success in the future; a number of our team are on discretionary leave, are working reduced hours from home and have on average taken a 40% reduction in pay as we navigate through this period of uncertainty.

We have also been able to apply for, and have been granted, the wage subsidy. This has allowed us to keep all our current staff engaged with the business during this lockdown period.



One thing that is certain, if we do manage to open for winter 2020, our operations will be significantly different to what our guests have experienced in the past. This lockdown period puts us behind in our scheduled maintenance and, with the closure of borders and some of the skill sets we were going to engage from overseas, it is likely that not all facilities will be operational for winter 2020.



We have made the decision to defer our AGM until later this year with an update to be provided once we have certainty around a date.



We want to thank you all for your patience. We acknowledge that this is a difficult and uncertain time for our employees and all those in our region exposed to our uncertain outlook. When we have relevant new information, we will update as soon as we are able.

Stay safe and take care!



Nāku iti noa, nā

Murray Gribben & the RAL Board of Directors



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## icecoast1 (Apr 10, 2020)

The governor of Vermont extended the State of Emergency/Stay at home order thru May 15th this morning.   Won't be seeing anything at Killington any time soon (not that there was ever a chance)


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## machski (Apr 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> The governor of Vermont extended the State of Emergency/Stay at home order thru May 15th this morning.   Won't be seeing anything at Killington any time soon (not that there was ever a chance)


Yup, East coast season is over for sure now.  I also do not see California relaxing things enough to allow a June season at Mammoth/Tahoe either (even with Mammoth getting another 4 feet this week).  I think we all pray that Oct/Nov 2020 will be able to open the next season.  As I posted above, the NZ 2020 (for us summer) season is looking cery doubtful as of now as well.  Have to assume the Australlia/South America areaas are in a similar situation.

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## skef (Apr 10, 2020)

If you would like a good cry, take a look at the K webcams right now (https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain) -- especially the North Ridge Cam.


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## Zermatt (Apr 10, 2020)

Looking ahead seems like the lift options at some ski areas will prove better than others in a post-pandemic world.  With open chairlifts being better than gondolas and trams.

For example, the only way to access Revelstoke is via gondola which could be limited to families or known groups only.  A single might have to ride by themselves.  At Revelstoke really only an issue in the morning.

Europe would be the worst with the widespread use of trams.  180 person trams could be reduced to 10 people.

Mad River Glen will obviously have no issues.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> The *governor of Vermont extended the State of Emergency/Stay at home order thru May 15th* this morning.   Won't be seeing anything at Killington any time soon (not that there was ever a chance)



 That seems rather extreme given what models suggest of COVID19 in Vermont right now, and those models have been way too aggressive.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 10, 2020)

billo said:


> Mad River Glen will obviously have no issues.



Mad River Glen was Social Distancing before it was cool.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That seems rather extreme given what models suggest of COVID19 in Vermont right now, and those models have been way too aggressive.


I think it's more designed to keep people from out of state away than fear of local conditions and fear of native virus spread. 

 I just ran into an issue today with trying to find lodging next week for some subcontractors I have booked for a hospital project up there.  None of the major search engines have any listings open in the northern half of the state.  I found one Marriott and one Hilton property open in Burlington, but that's about 50 miles away from where this crew is working for us.

Until there is great improvement in NYC and Boston, I imagine ME, NH and VT will remain closed up.  Might possibly be well into June.   Tourism season doesn't really get going until school lets out.  My guess is they are hopeful to be back up and running by then.  Perhaps soft opening of non-essential businesses prior.  Start with retail then restaurants with reduced seating.  Hotels and STRs going last. 

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## icecoast1 (Apr 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I think it's more designed to keep people from out of state away than fear of local conditions and fear of native virus spread.
> 
> I just ran into an issue today with trying to find lodging next week for some subcontractors I have booked for a hospital project up there.  None of the major search engines have any listings open in the northern half of the state.  I found one Marriott and one Hilton property open in Burlington, but that's about 50 miles away from where this crew is working for us.
> 
> ...



You can't legally book lodging or rent properties in VT as part of the governor's orders.  Police were going around making sure places were shut.  But certain people are exempt, you may be part of that group


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> You can't legally book lodging or rent properties in VT as part of the governor's orders.  Police were going around making sure places were shut.  But certain people are exempt, you may be part of that group


Military and healthcare are exempt from the ban including vendors for the hospitals.  

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## Not Sure (Apr 10, 2020)

machski said:


> Yup, East coast season is over for sure now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app





Mount Washington Auto road late May


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> View attachment 26719
> 
> Mount Washington Auto road late May



True.

Anyone else remember the short-lived Cog Ski Trains?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Military and healthcare are exempt from the ban including vendors for the hospitals.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



But the governor has prohibited online reservations.  You have to call.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> But the governor has prohibited online reservations.  You have to call.


The challenge this week in booking was figuring out who to actually call.  Usually just go through Concur for all our booking.  That came up blank, so did Expedia, Hotels.com etc.  Had to go direct to the Marriott or Hilton websites to find what is still open.  

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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2020)

The governor is allowing hotels to take public reservations for June 15 and later.  That doesn’t bode well for Killington.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 10, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The governor is allowing hotels to take public reservations for June 15 and later.  That doesn’t bode well for Killington.



They were probably done anyway.  That would be a zoo if they re opened and mass gatherings like that likely arent going to happen for a while.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 10, 2020)

I do not seeing any resort opening!  A Basin keeps saying they will reopen hopefully.  Any ski area in North America  that opens this spring will be swamped and attract out of state people so there is no way any are opening up - that is very clear!


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## chuckstah (Apr 10, 2020)

Beartooth Basin plans to open on schedule if it's possible. We shall see...

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## Zermatt (Apr 11, 2020)

F*** Stowe! They are so closed you can't even look at their webcams....they took them offline.

Looking at other webcams it's quite sad.  Looks like most places in VT would be close to 100% open this weekend.  Fresh snow last week and a relatively nice, but cold Easter weekend.

Edit: F*** Vail!.....looks like all their webcams are offline.


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## Edd (Apr 11, 2020)

billo said:


> F*** Stowe! They are so closed you can't even look at their webcams....they took them offline.
> 
> Looking at other webcams it's quite sad.  Looks like most places in VT would be close to 100% open this weekend.  Fresh snow last week and a relatively nice, but cold Easter weekend.
> 
> Edit: F*** Vail!.....looks like all their webcams are offline.



Shutting the cams off makes sense when you consider the folks refusing to stay home. Best not to tempt them with fresh snow.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2020)

Edd said:


> Shutting the cams off makes sense when you consider the folks refusing to stay home. Best not to tempt them with fresh snow.



Just saw someone skiing on the North Ridge cam at K along with a couple people on the Pico cam...guess there are a few people that think the "mountain is closed including to uphill travel" rules only apply to everyone else.


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## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Just saw someone skiing on the North Ridge cam at K along with a couple people on the Pico cam...guess there are a few people that think the "mountain is closed including to uphill travel" rules only apply to everyone else.



North ridge area isn't owned by K.  If I lived in the town of Killington I would be up there right now.  I see nothing wrong with that.  If the person u saw drove more than 10 miles to get there then I would have a problem with it.


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## Newpylong (Apr 11, 2020)

Except it doesn't work like that. K has the operating lease for the land and is legally in charge of access (and owns the liability).


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Except it doesn't work like that. K has the operating lease for the land and is legally in charge of access (and owns the liability).



Exactly.  Same goes for other areas that lease State and Federal land.


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## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Except it doesn't work like that. K has the operating lease for the land and is legally in charge of access (and owns the liability).



Not true, access is not closed as the bucklin trail is still open.  If the mountain is your backyard then making some turns responsibly is no different than walking around the block and K is doing nothing to stop it.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> Not true, access is not closed as the bucklin trail is still open.  If the mountain is your backyard then making some turns responsibly is no different than walking around the block and K is doing nothing to stop it.



I think he is talking about access from the ski areas itself.  A lot of folks don't realize that a lot of land leases to ski areas give the ski area the right to control access (otherwise how could they sell tickets?) and some leases restrict that to charging for lifts only (like Alta).  Additionally, a lot of these leases put the ski area on the hook to obtain liability insurance and to insure the State/Feds.  That's the bigger rub.  

And what trailhead are you talking about?  Pretty much every trail organization in Vermont has said that folks need to stay off the trails during the COVID-19 pandemic and mud season.  

https://fpr.vermont.gov/recreation/outdoor-recreation-and-covid-19



> The Long Trail System on state lands is currently closed.  Visit Green Mountain Club for more information and updates.  Other trail closures may be necessary in the future.  Please check www.Trailfinder.info often for updates.



Small detail there.....


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## icecoast1 (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> Not true, access is not closed as the bucklin trail is still open.  If the mountain is your backyard then making some turns responsibly is no different than walking around the block and K is doing nothing to stop it.




Courts have already ruled that mountains who operate on forest service land can restrict access


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## mbedle (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> Not true, access is not closed as the bucklin trail is still open.  If the mountain is your backyard then making some turns responsibly is no different than walking around the block and K is doing nothing to stop it.



Killington's lease only covers the very upper part of that trail near Killington Peak. You can hike Bucklin trail, just not all the way to the top.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Killington's lease only cover the very upper part of that trail near Killington Peak. You can hike Bucklin trail, just not all the way to the top.



See my post, re: LT closed 


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## mbedle (Apr 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> See my post, re: LT closed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Sorry - didn't realize that trail was part of the LT system.


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## Funky_Catskills (Apr 11, 2020)

Strangely - Hunter just has the go at your own risk sign up at the North area.  Although I've heard the town has asked people to not ski due to saving the volunteer emergency medical people from potential exposure.    We walk to the snow at the base of north daily - I haven't seen anybody skiing...  It's strange - theres a shit ton of snow still there.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Sorry - didn't realize that trail was part of the LT system.



Ah, good point.  The State has asked folks to stay off the "state owned portions of the LT".  I think that Bucklin is a feeder trail to the LT, and if it is on state land, I think that the same recommendation applies.  

That said, it is a real gray area.  They want folks to recreate, but not doing high risk activities or congregating in groups.  

And honestly, there are not going to be police at the trailheads.  Use common sense and stay off for now.


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## cdskier (Apr 11, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Sorry - didn't realize that trail was part of the LT system.



It is considered a side trail in division 5... https://www.greenmountainclub.org/the-long-trail/side-to-side/

I'm not personally familiar with Bucklin. In theory it could be open if it is entirely on private land as the state has no control over that. But any parts on public land are closed. TrailBoss's link would cover this topic (in general, not specific trails). But it is also mentioned on GMC's website.


----------



## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

Technically speaking, the state of VT can't close the long trail at K because it is also the Appalachian trail.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> Technically speaking, the state of VT can't close the long trail at K because it is also the Appalachian trail.



https://wildeast.appalachiantrail.o...re/hiking-basics/health/covid19/a-t-closures/

All signs are pointing to closed. 


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----------



## cdskier (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> Technically speaking, the state of VT can't close the long trail at K because it is also the Appalachian trail.



Umm...you do realize that the AT is also closed in VT (and many other states)...right?

https://wildeast.appalachiantrail.o...re/hiking-basics/health/covid19/a-t-closures/



> Appalachian Trail/Long Trail and side trails on state land – CLOSED
> 
> (4/7/2020) The Appalachian Trail/Long Trail and side trails on state lands are closed by the Vermont Department of Forests, Parks, and Recreation



The ATC also recommended (and requested) formal closure of the ENTIRE AT on public lands.


----------



## RichT (Apr 11, 2020)

HHHEEEEYYYY.I just looked at the NorthRidge Cam, Seems to be a FEW tracks up there!!!!



skef said:


> If you would like a good cry, take a look at the K webcams right now (https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain) -- especially the North Ridge Cam.
> 
> View attachment 26718


----------



## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> https://wildeast.appalachiantrail.o...re/hiking-basics/health/covid19/a-t-closures/
> 
> All signs are pointing to closed.
> 
> ...



Oh well, at least we got some traffic in here, been dead since politics were banned


----------



## RichT (Apr 11, 2020)

OOOPS sorry for the repeat :-D


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2020)

You shouldn’t be on trails this time of year anyway in order to prevent damage.


----------



## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> You shouldn’t be on trails this time of year anyway in order to prevent damage.



The ones we are talking about are still covered in snow.


----------



## mbedle (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> Oh well, at least we got some traffic in here, been dead since politics were banned



LOL - so true.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> The ones we are talking about are still covered in snow.



In their entirety?


----------



## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> In their entirety?



No, I doubt the entire Appalachian trail is covered in snow right now, but the part that runs over Killington that we are talking about is.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 11, 2020)

skiur said:


> No, I doubt the entire Appalachian trail is covered in snow right now, but the part that runs over Killington that we are talking about is.



I think he meant more the side trails to get to that point...


----------



## skiur (Apr 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I think he meant more the side trails to get to that point...



I know, I was being facetious


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 11, 2020)

Cannon: 
We moved the deadline for the best price to June 30th on Cannon Passes.
- We also extended the offer to get a Cannon Bonus Card loaded with 3-$25 tickets to June 30th.
- We'll reassess deadlines and offers as we navigate the current health crisis, and post any updates. 
- See the Season Pass Page for details


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----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 11, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Cannon:
> We moved the deadline for the best price to June 30th on Cannon Passes.
> - We also extended the offer to get a Cannon Bonus Card loaded with 3-$25 tickets to June 30th.
> - We'll reassess deadlines and offers as we navigate the current health crisis, and post any updates.
> ...



Cool.  Thanks.  I stopped by Cannon to get some swag on my last trip to Vermont last month literally the day before the store closed.  I was so envious of those skiing.  But I did get two days in at Burke.


----------



## Hawk (Apr 13, 2020)

Sugarbush has their webcams on and Win even posts updates from the plaza and at his house.  He's got a good Corona beard going it looks.  LOL


----------



## WinS (Apr 15, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Sugarbush has their webcams on and Win even posts updates from the plaza and at his house.  He's got a good Corona beard going it looks.  LOL


S

Wait until you see it this Saturday :-D


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 16, 2020)

❗️ BLOOD DONORS NEEDED ❗️
One of our nurses, Soraya Urban-Bell, is critically ill at 
Albany Med and is *urgently* in need of A positive plasma. 

If you have tested positive with the #covid19 virus and are now back to good health, your blood donation is needed. Please call: 518-262-9340 to the Albany Convalescent Plasma program for more information on how you can help.

THANK YOU 
Just saw on social media please
This is best new evidence of helping people I believe


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 17, 2020)

There is a nice article about the Mt. Snow groomer here:
https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/16/twin-brothers-felled-by-covid-19-made-a-quiet-yet-big-mark/


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 17, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> ❗️ BLOOD DONORS NEEDED ❗️
> One of our nurses, Soraya Urban-Bell, is critically ill at
> Albany Med and is *urgently* in need of A positive plasma.
> 
> ...



This a great point but I think it gets better attention in it’s own thread rather than being buried in a ski resort response thread.  Just sayin’


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## ScottySkis (Apr 17, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> This a great point but I think it gets better attention in it’s own thread rather than being buried in a ski resort response thread.  Just sayin’
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I agree


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 19, 2020)

https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain/superstar-cam

Lots of snow left. Will it outlast the shutdown ???? Slim chance but maybe?


----------



## drjeff (Apr 19, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain/superstar-cam
> 
> Lots of snow left. Will it outlast the shutdown ???? Slim chance but maybe?



I bet the snow will outlast the shutdown, but I am not sure what/if the parameters around a reopening will allow for gatherings the size and proximity of folks, that would likely show up if Killington was able to reopen to skiing in the next couple of weeks, since proper social distancing is likely to be a component of a reopening plan


----------



## machski (Apr 19, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain/superstar-cam
> 
> Lots of snow left. Will it outlast the shutdown ???? Slim chance but maybe?


Just forget about it already, not gonna happen.  VT is surely going to be super cautious with how they re-open.  After all, they have been fining people for violating the stay at home orders and many municipalities has installed curfews for being out.

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----------



## Edd (Apr 19, 2020)

machski said:


> Just forget about it already, not gonna happen.
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Agreed.


----------



## tumbler (Apr 20, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/webcams/mountain/superstar-cam
> 
> Lots of snow left. Will it outlast the shutdown ???? Slim chance but maybe?



Would be an interesting experiment to see if the snow lasts longer from not being groomed everyday.  I always thought grooming it makes it melt faster.  
And no way anything is opening.  Cases in Mass are growing.  There is going to be out of state hate for a while.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 20, 2020)

I hope the locals get to skin it at least once restrictions are lifted.  Would hate to see those seeded bumps melt unused.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 20, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Would be an interesting experiment to see if the snow lasts longer from not being groomed everyday.  I always thought grooming it makes it melt faster.



Not just not being groomed, but also not even being skied for the most part...I'd think that has some impact as well.


----------



## Kleetus (Apr 20, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> I hope the locals get to skin it at least once restrictions are lifted.  Would hate to see those seeded bumps melt unused.



Well somebody up there was skinning it restrictions or not. I happened to pop on the Bear Mt. webcam a few minutes ago and low and behold somebody was skiing down with their pups.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 20, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> I hope the locals get to skin it at least once restrictions are lifted.  Would hate to see those seeded bumps melt unused.



Yesterday morning on the Superstar cam I saw a single set of tracks on some fresh snow . Maybe someone has night vision goggles I could borrow :wink:


----------



## JDMRoma (Apr 20, 2020)

Kleetus said:


> Well somebody up there was skinning it restrictions or not. I happened to pop on the Bear Mt. webcam a few minutes ago and low and behold somebody was skiing down with their pups.



I saw someone on superstar earlier today on the way up ! Looks like TONS of snow left !


----------



## ss20 (Apr 20, 2020)

What I hear is there's "limited enforcement" of the no trespassing at K.  Honestly though if you're there and your car doesn't have green plates expect to have tires slashed and a busted windshield when you return.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 20, 2020)

I'm not giving up hope on a couple late-May weekends.  I'm not optimistic, but think it's within the realm of possibility.  I think in 2 weeks we'll have an idea whether the hope is alive or if it's not happening.  

5 weeks ago no one thought this would be our world, no way to predict what the next 5 will bring.


----------



## skiur (Apr 20, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I'm not giving up hope on a couple late-May weekends.  I'm not optimistic, but think it's within the realm of possibility.  I think in 2 weeks we'll have an idea whether the hope is alive or if it's not happening.
> 
> 5 weeks ago no one thought this would be our world, no way to predict what the next 5 will bring.



The Vermont stay at home order is until 5-15, so will have a better idea then.


----------



## icecoast1 (Apr 21, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I'm not giving up hope on a couple late-May weekends.  I'm not optimistic, but think it's within the realm of possibility.  I think in 2 weeks we'll have an idea whether the hope is alive or if it's not happening.
> 
> 5 weeks ago no one thought this would be our world, no way to predict what the next 5 will bring.




They're not going to allow mass gatherings for a while.  That will prevent Killington from opening before next season, providing they would even want to.   That place would be a zoo.


----------



## puckoach (Apr 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Not just not being groomed, but also not even being skied for the most part...I'd think that has some impact as well.



Sun has the biggest impact on melting.  

Skiers and groomers add some heat. More so, winch cats on steeps - moving slowly, engine and metal tracks. But, marginal impact IMHO.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 21, 2020)

It seems pretty obvious to me that large gatherings will be banned through at least the summer.  There are rumors in Britain that pubs may be closed through the end of the year.  If we see a second wave in the United States, don't be surprised if ski area bars are forced to close for at least part of next season.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> They're not going to allow mass gatherings for a while.  That will prevent Killington from opening before next season, providing they would even want to.   That place would be a zoo.



Exactly.  Additionally I doubt that Killington in no way will take any actions right now that would likely lead to a large number of out of state license plates showing up.

My hunch is that the road block signs are staying up, short of maybe a guard to allow construction workers and related work trucks through during the day, until Superstar melts out and/or some significant developments in treatments or vaccines for COVID-19 happens


----------



## slatham (Apr 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It seems pretty obvious to me that large gatherings will be banned through at least the summer.  There are rumors in Britain that pubs may be closed through the end of the year.  If we see a second wave in the United States, don't be surprised if ski area bars are forced to close for at least part of next season.



Yes, and if Killington were to open it would be the mother of all mass gatherings!!!

There needs to much more data about the affect of reopening the economy, the proper protocols, etc. That will be known by November (and maybe we get lucky with a vaccine and/or effective treatments) but it will not be known in May or probably even June.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 21, 2020)

Speaking of mass gatherings it looks like concerts will not be allowed until 2021 and major sporting events will not allow spectators until then either.  By default, my guess is any ski area that opens in North America will create a mass gatherings in the lodges and lift lines and such actions will not be allowed.

So no more lift served skiing this season I am sure.  Sadly!


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----------



## EPB (Apr 21, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Speaking of mass gatherings it looks like concerts will not be allowed until 2021 and major sporting events will not allow spectators until then either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Source? Didn't see anything in quick Google search.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 21, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Source? Didn't see anything in quick Google search.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Go to Billboard.com or search concerts to be postponed - you got this!

Check out CBS Sports and look up MLB starting 2020 season without fans

I can give you the links but what is the fun in that.


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----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2020)

Colorado blocks access to Loveland pass parking to keep people from skiing.

https://www.tetongravity.com/video/...io3oa1AQAzIyUIRvnyoVnibmwNMnK0T8L1eEP_zWnl0Tk


----------



## EPB (Apr 21, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Go to Billboard.com or search concerts to be postponed - you got this!
> 
> Check out CBS Sports and look up MLB starting 2020 season without fans
> 
> ...


I see no announcements that concerts are banned until (edit) 2021 or that MLB has given up on fans in 2020.

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----------



## 2Planker (Apr 21, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I see no announcements that concerts are banned until (edit) 2021 or that MLB has given up on fans in 2020.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



MLB article - https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/...ce-becoming-stronger-possibility-report-says/


----------



## EPB (Apr 21, 2020)

2Planker said:


> MLB article - https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/...ce-becoming-stronger-possibility-report-says/


It calls no fans a 'distinct possibility'.

I expect no fans to start for sure. 

That said, this article is obviously a far cry from evidence that "major sporting events will not allow spectators until then (2021) either". 

I'm not trying to be ticky tack, but I was waiting to get into the grocery store and I thought there was actual breaking news being relayed by dblskifanatic's post. This is clearly not the case.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Apr 21, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm not trying to be ticky tack, but I was waiting to get into the grocery store and I thought there was actual breaking news being relayed by dblskifanatic's post. This is clearly not the case.



I interpreted his post the same way and agree with you that it isn't the case. Concert promoters and sports leagues taking it upon themselves to cancel or postpone things that are months away due to uncertainty is very different from them canceling things scheduled for the fall because they are "not allowed". Is it a possibility that come fall those things wouldn't be allowed anyway? Sure.


----------



## EPB (Apr 21, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I interpreted his post the same way and agree with you that it isn't the case. Concert promoters and sports leagues taking it upon themselves to cancel or postpone things that are months away due to uncertainty is very different from them canceling things scheduled for the fall because they are "not allowed". Is it a possibility that come fall those things wouldn't be allowed anyway? Sure.



Well said and agree that things could end up cancelled eventually regardless. Lack of precision happens, though. I'm certainly not immune. NBD.


----------



## icecoast1 (Apr 21, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> It calls no fans a 'distinct possibility'.
> 
> I expect no fans to start for sure.
> 
> ...




That's if the players even agree to the proposal of being isolated from their families for months to begin with.  More and more are coming out against it


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 25, 2020)

Not really a ski resort thing but how many of you have noticed an up tick in traffic this weekend?  I think people are tired of staying home!  I guess if I noticed it I was one of the culprits.


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----------



## slatham (Apr 25, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Not really a ski resort thing but how many of you have noticed an up tick in traffic this weekend?  I think people are tired of staying home!  I guess if I noticed it I was one of the culprits.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Today was a beautiful day. We took advantage and drove to a local LI beach and there was way more traffic, especially down on Ocean Parkway. Lots of tourists too - people stopped on side of road and walking up dunes to see the water (both not allowed). We went to a Gilgo and wore masks in the parking lot and walking through the tunnel to the beach, but not on the beach as social distancing was easy. 

The time of year and especially the weather has been very favorable for staying home. That first day in the mid 80’s look out!


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 15, 2020)

Bunmping on humping Wed
Good news for wasschutes ski area local
The hill is giving out free pass as to some essyintal workers

"We are giving away 100 complimentary Season Passes to essential workers nominated by their friends or family!

We would like to celebrate and thank all of our essential workers that have been working so hard over the last few months with a free Steel Pass for the coming season.

To nominate a friend or family member please send an email to web@wachusett.com including their name, age, town/city of residence, occupation, connection to Wachusett, brief story of hard work during pandemic, why they deserve this prize, and if you would like your story posted to social media (photos are encouraged but not required). Submissions will be accepted until August 31st, after which winners will be chosen. 

https://www.wachusett.com/Tickets-Passes/Tickets-Seasonal-Passes/Season-Passes.aspx"


----------



## EPB (Jul 16, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> Bunmping on humping Wed
> Good news for wasschutes ski area local
> The hill is giving out free pass as to some essyintal workers
> 
> ...



Good on WaWa!


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 17, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Good on WaWa!



I was classified as an essential worker should I nominate myself via my wife's email address?


----------



## tnt1234 (Jul 19, 2020)

So.....what are we thinking?

places open with limits on ticket sales?  Gondi and chairlift rides with family only, lodge limitations with tables spaced far apart?

Or is it time to buy a good back country set up?


----------



## ss20 (Jul 19, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> So.....what are we thinking?
> 
> places open with limits on ticket sales?  Gondi and chairlift rides with family only, lodge limitations with tables spaced far apart?



That's what I'm thinking.  I doubt ticket capping will be a tremendous issue on all but the busiest of days.  For whatever reason most states are fixated on a "50%" capacity figure.  For the big ski resorts with 8,000-12,000ccc they're running at over 50% capacity only a couple dozen weekend days a year.  Monday-Friday it's a complete non-issue.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 19, 2020)

Some great detail I found to back-up my above post.  I dug through Mount Snow's old master plan files from the 2005-2015 era.  Everything you could ever need to know about Mount Snow and/or ski resort master planning is burried on the Act 250 database, btw.

As of 2011 Mount Snow had exactly 4,004 parking spaces.



So on an average Saturday they're just over the 50% mark.  Figure 12 Saturday's Christmas-March they'll technically hit 50% on 8 or 9 out of 12 of them.  It's a function of these major resorts having so much flex capacity to maximize those 12,000 skier visit days that if they ran at their true maximum capacity they would be totally overrun.  And our idea of a "busy Saturday" is really nowhere near that maximum.


----------



## skiur (Jul 19, 2020)

You can limit tickets sales, but how do u limit pass holder's?


----------



## ss20 (Jul 19, 2020)

skiur said:


> You can limit tickets sales, but how do u limit pass holder's?



I'd imagine it'd be like an amusement park where you reserve your time/day.


----------



## skiur (Jul 19, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I'd imagine it'd be like an amusement park where you reserve your time/day.



They better give me some money back on my pass if I can't use it whenever I want.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 19, 2020)

skiur said:


> You can limit tickets sales, but how do u limit pass holder's?



Probably a blend of advanced reservations while counting the people that show up.  It's actually not that much of a problem to pull off.


----------



## Edd (Jul 19, 2020)

Whatever happens, the indoor spaces are the biggest concern. Anyone willing to reserve lodge access for the day, to change and eat? What if the reservation cost $10/pp?


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----------



## JimG. (Jul 19, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Monday-Friday it's a complete non-issue.



Hope you're correct. Like skiur said, if they try to limit my access as a season passholder I'll be expecting money back.


----------



## slatham (Jul 19, 2020)

Limited capacity. Limited revenue. Result is to limit costs. How will areas react with snowmaking depth and coverage, and lifts running?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> Limited capacity. Limited revenue. Result is to limit costs. How will areas react with snowmaking depth and coverage, and lifts running?




Better sharpen the edges, odds are we arent going to see a lot of snowmaking this year, just enough to open and minimal resurfacing after a rain.  Resorts are going to be in major cost saving and survival mode


----------



## tnt1234 (Jul 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Hope you're correct. Like skiur said, if they try to limit my access as a season passholder I'll be expecting money back.



Well, sadly, I am expecting to see most mountains going out of business. 

There is no good answer.  Respect the passholdrs and miss a few bucks here and there on the day trip/weekenders, or keep pass holders happy...

Reality is, it's not gonna matter.  Without serious crowds, all these mountains fold 

So, that's probably where we are.


----------



## ss20 (Jul 19, 2020)

There are a couple up-sides to limited ticket sales from a resort operations standpoint.  You know exactly how many people you need to staff, you know to a near-exact number of how many lessons you're going to sell, how many lifts are needed to run, and everything down to the number of boots you're gonna put through the rental shop.  From December-March these resorts staff full-bore on the weekends.  For every bluebird Saturday where they're filling up the parking lot there's a rainy Saturday where you need facilities/staff for a Monday and instead you've got literally 5-10x the labor necessary.  


Also the Eastern ski industry is blessed in that it can cut costs substantially just by less snowmaking and grooming.  If you just cut out terrain parks you're reducing your snowmaking costs by a pretty big factor (at the larger resorts).  Or have 1-2 less snowcats out each night.  2 less groomers out for an 8 hour shift each night is gonna save tens of thousands of $$$ over the course of a season.  


And the "most mountains going out of business" comment is absurd.  Yes it is almost certain that we lose some smaller hills if things are still very restricted come December.  But come on....Maine, NH, and most of all VT simply could not have functional economies if "most" of their ski resorts closed.


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 19, 2020)

Pray for a good snow year !!!

If you can work from home you can work from the lodge? Maybe ski areas could focus on some secluded areas with wifi or other connectivity to accommodate those people ? Yurt city with UV filtration  LOL


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 20, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Also the Eastern ski industry is blessed in that it can cut costs substantially just by less snowmaking and grooming.



A resort that relies on snowmaking is not “blessed.”  Quite the opposite.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 20, 2020)

skiur said:


> They better give me some money back on my pass if I can't use it whenever I want.



Did you actually buy it thinking this season would be normal? Capacity is certainly going to be capped with reservations.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2020)

ss20 said:


> And* the "most mountains going out of business" comment is absurd*.


----------



## skiur (Jul 20, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Did you actually buy it thinking this season would be normal? Capacity is certainly going to be capped with reservations.



They charged me full price and I bought a full pass, not a limited pass.


----------



## EPB (Jul 20, 2020)

skiur said:


> They charged me full price and I bought a full pass, not a limited pass.


When did you buy this pass? 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## skiur (Jul 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> When did you buy this pass?
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



Last week.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> When did you buy this pass?



I really don't think it matters whether he bought it yesterday or 4 months ago. The passes are typically being sold as granting "unlimited" and "unrestricted" access. Limiting day tickets is easy, but limiting pass-holders creates a rather significant potential issue for any ski area that sold a pass advertised as "unlimited" or "unrestricted". I believe people should understand these are unique times and we need to work together on this, but at the same time I can almost guarantee that if resorts limit pass-holder access, they'll see class action lawsuits unfortunately.


----------



## EPB (Jul 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I really don't think it matters whether he bought it yesterday or 4 months ago. The passes are typically being sold as granting "unlimited" and "unrestricted" access. Limiting day tickets is easy, but limiting pass-holders creates a rather significant potential issue for any ski area that sold a pass advertised as "unlimited" or "unrestricted". I believe people should understand these are unique times and we need to work together on this, but at the same time I can almost guarantee that if resorts limit pass-holder access, they'll see class action lawsuits unfortunately.



Perhaps places should give full pass refunds and just do day ticket-only this year. 

That said, I could certainly envision a world where lodge access is limited but anyone with a pass can use the chairlifts whenever they want.


----------



## p_levert (Jul 20, 2020)

Season passholders will have special access, but if the state puts a limit on the number of skiers, then there's no way that access can be guaranteed to all passholders.  Sucks, but that's the way it will work out.

As things sit today, the national average confirmed covid infection rate is 1.2%.  For VT it's 0.2%, NH 0.5%, ME 0.3%.  So there's great potential for outbreaks in NE ski country.  If a vaccine doesn't save the day, it will be a weird season.  (data from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Perhaps places should give full pass refunds and just do day ticket-only this year.
> 
> That said, I could certainly envision a world where lodge access is limited but anyone with a pass can use the chairlifts whenever they want.



Everyone keeps talking about the lodges, but there's a lot of other areas that would be impacted by social distancing requirements as well. It is conceivable that there are some sort of limits on who can be on a lift together (or how far apart people need to be on a chair).  Any sort of restrictions like that decreases your uphill capacity. So now if you still allow anyone with a pass to use the chairlifts whenever they want, where will all those people be if there's less uphill lift capacity? Standing in the lift corral making those lines longer? How do you enforce social distancing there? Bottom line if there's social distancing requirements, I think the number of people on the mountain needs to be restricted.

I also don't agree with the earlier analysis in this thread that on an average Saturday resorts are only slightly above 50% capacity as is so we don't need to worry too much. If the numbers provided are accurate and the normal Saturday crowds that you see are really only "50% of capacity", then "50%" won't work as a viable benchmark to allow for proper social distancing requirements. Those numbers were also from pre-Epic and pre-Ikon days in the northeast (10 years ago), so I think that also calls into question whether they would even still be the case today.


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## prsboogie (Jul 20, 2020)

Line corral distancing would actually be the easiest to achieve S.D. Tips to tails with a foot between or place a pole every 6 feet and act like adults. Rope off a 6 foot area between each grouping (left to right) Done. 

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## EPB (Jul 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Everyone keeps talking about the lodges, but there's a lot of other areas that would be impacted by social distancing requirements as well. It is conceivable that there are some sort of limits on who can be on a lift together (or how far apart people need to be on a chair).  Any sort of restrictions like that decreases your uphill capacity. So now if you still allow anyone with a pass to use the chairlifts whenever they want, where will all those people be if there's less uphill lift capacity? Standing in the lift corral making those lines longer? How do you enforce social distancing there? Bottom line if there's social distancing requirements, I think the number of people on the mountain needs to be restricted.



I think there are two main reasons for the lodge talk: 
1) they are the most deeply affected places at the mountain
2) unless you ski somewhere really busy like large So. Vt resorts, Hunter, Loon or Sunday River, I doubt that lines/chair restrictions will be that big of an issue. Visits are likely to be down significantly due depressed economic activity and reluctance by a segment of the population to go out and ski in crowds in the first place.

Places may very well have a lower limit on the number of tickets they sell. I just wouldn't expect it to be an issue more than a few days out of the year. If I'm a pass holder with other time to ski, I'd be tempted to stay home on days where the vibe/experience is unlikely to be fun anyway (e.g. MLK weekend).


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## ss20 (Jul 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I also don't agree with the earlier analysis in this thread that on an average Saturday resorts are only slightly above 50% capacity as is so we don't need to worry too much. If the numbers provided are accurate and the normal Saturday crowds that you see are really only "50% of capacity", then "50%" won't work as a viable benchmark to allow for proper social distancing requirements. Those numbers were also from pre-Epic and pre-Ikon days in the northeast (10 years ago), so I think that also calls into question whether they would even still be the case today.



I agree that in practice 50% is a garbage number.  I went to the RI beach when they were capped at 75% and you couldn't squeeze another a$$ on that beach past 11am.  I went to an auto race in NH where they're capped at 50% capacity and they filled the main lot and went into the overflow parking lot.  Even here in CT, the local track is reduced to 25% capacity which is roughly what they would fill to on a typical Friday night race.  In all three cases keeping six feet apart was a joke at how impractical it was.  

My argument was more that states are focused on limited capacity by a percentage, and that a majority of ski resorts have a design capacity wayyyy beyond what would be practical for them to handle.  Exceptions being Magic, Mad River, Smuggs.  But even on a mid-winter Saturday at Killington you can have lift line out of the corral and the Bear parking lot will be less than 75% full, Skyeship even less.


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## slatham (Jul 20, 2020)

Lodge capacity and lift/slope capacity constraints are two very different issues to solve, and hopefully will be tackled separately by the authorities.

Looking at lift capacity (can we all agree there is no issue once on the slope?), it is well documented that outdoor activity is very low risk. Sitting with someone on an open air lift increases that risk, but the increased risk is very minimal if both parties are wearing a mask (remember, technically the guidance is 6' distance, OR a mask). Given current summer outdoor activities - golf, disc golf, adventure parks, lift served mountain biking, trails, parks, farmers markets, pools - I am not aware of any state mandated restrictions on capacity (please correct if wrong). Given the current situation in the Northeast I would be very surprised if any state required limited capacity on lifts. On the other hand, ski areas may wish to do so to reassure and attract customers (i.e you can ride single on a double if you wish, etc).

So I do not think season pass holders will be restricted from access, though they may be required to "reserve" or pre-notify that they plan to ski on a particular day.

The bigger issue is lodge capacity, where there are state mandated indoor capacity restrictions and protocols. Thus unlimited access to the lodge cannot be guaranteed. To me this is not that big of an issue, even if I am not at my home Mountian, except for bathrooms. Here is where areas will need to thread the needle as you can't deny access to a bathroom (well, at least not without causing even greater issues).  Unfortunately, many ski areas have their bathrooms well inside the lodge, if not also down a narrow stair case. I foresee a lot of porta potties......

The most significant issue, however, will be if current travel restrictions continue. For instance, the current VT quarantine rules for all of the NY tri-state counties would eliminate a huge market for VT ski areas. If this played out it could be a boon for NY State ski areas but really hurt VT. And of course this is fully out of the control of the ski area. 

On the other hand, could there be more demand for NE regional skiing due to lack of interest in flying out West?? 

The range of possible outcomes is incredibly wide. And right now very very unknown.....


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## ss20 (Jul 20, 2020)

slatham said:


> The most significant issue, however, will be if current travel restrictions continue. For instance, the current VT quarantine rules for all of the NY tri-state counties would eliminate a huge market for VT ski areas. If this played out it could be a boon for NY State ski areas but really hurt VT. And of course this is fully out of the control of the ski area.



I am banking on Vermont doing away with the quarantining requirements.  Only because keeping them during ski season would be economic suicide to an extreme degree.


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## xlr8r (Jul 20, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I am banking on Vermont doing away with the quarantining requirements.  Only because keeping them during ski season would be economic suicide to an extreme degree.



I am not so sure,  VT seems to be sticking to the numbers, and I and many expect the virus to get worse in the fall.  I can easily see VT staying relatively locked down next winter to metropolitan counties, which in turn will be a boon to NY and NH.  

The biggest issue I still see is the base lodges.  While many of us are used to booting up at our car, most of the GP are not.  Most Base lodges on a weekend or Holiday are packed, not only with people but with all the bags and gear as well.  I think it might be prudent for areas to utilizes decks or patios by putting out heating lamps to keep crowds down inside this winter.


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## JimG. (Jul 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> That said, I could certainly envision a world where lodge access is limited but anyone with a pass can use the chairlifts whenever they want.



I would be totally good with that.


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## skiur (Jul 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I would be totally good with that.



Be fine for me too, I don't plan on going inside much, or using gondolas.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2020)

Not to get on a tangent, but another real big threat to the ski season is the current administration's limitations on employment visas.  Ski areas rely on foreign help to fill their positions and the administration is using the pandemic to justify barring more visas.  

As to the pandemic, I see it continuing to be uneven with some states remaining restrictive and others not so restrictive depending on the leadership of said state.  I have a hard time seeing a full-blown ski season until there is a vaccine.  We're having a hard enough time getting people to just wear masks.....


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## mbedle (Jul 21, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Not to get on a tangent, but another real big threat to the ski season is the current administration's limitations on employment visas.  Ski areas rely on foreign help to fill their positions and the administration is using the pandemic to justify barring more visas.
> 
> As to the pandemic, I see it continuing to be uneven with some states remaining restrictive and others not so restrictive depending on the leadership of said state.  I have a hard time seeing a full-blown ski season until there is a vaccine.  We're having a hard enough time getting people to just wear masks.....



I think if we still have high unemployment, they should be fine filling those positions.


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## 180 (Jul 21, 2020)

If you have seen New Zealand is reporting large local crowds despite international travel restrictions. Everyone is going to want to ski this winter.


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## tumbler (Jul 21, 2020)

Just like everyone is playing golf this summer.


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## mbedle (Jul 21, 2020)

Let's just say that if we are under some sort of capacity restriction and social distancing requirements, the ski experience is going to very different this season. Weekend lift lines will be unlike anything we have ever seen at the major resorts. Can you image the Stowe gondola going up with one person or the quad with only 2 people on a regular basis? I would expect to see that all lifts will run at all times a particular resort is open to alleviate lines. Resorts might have to rethink their skinning rules to allow skinning during operational hours. Wind holds will send most people to their car to stay warm. Lodges will become breeding grounds for Covid 19 infections (think of you ski mask as a Covid 19 dispenser). I don't know about all you, but my nose runs from the moment I leave my truck until I get in the lodge at the end of the day. Beards covered in snot and ice, melting in the lodge after skiing. Snot soaked ski masks laying around, people blowing their noses non-stop. Not sure how they are going to operate the bars at the ski resorts.  Mid afternoon the lodge is at capacity and the majority of the people occupying the lodge are hanging out having a drink, how are people that booted up in the lodge going to get in to take off their boots and leave?  As someone said, I could see huge tents setup as temporary lodges for people to get out of the weather.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 21, 2020)

180 said:


> If you have seen New Zealand is reporting large local crowds despite international travel restrictions. Everyone is going to want to ski this winter.


I tend to agree.  Skiing is by and large a sport for high income people.  Comparable in summer would be pleasure boating.  From all reports I've read, boating is having a record season in terms of the number of boats sold.  

So, I don't see demand for skiing diminishing much at all even if unemployment remains high.  This will especially be true if there are restrictions still in place for youth team sports. 

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## EPB (Jul 21, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Let's just say that if we are under some sort of capacity restriction and social distancing requirements, the ski experience is going to very different this season. Weekend lift lines will be unlike anything we have ever seen at the major resorts. Can you image the Stowe gondola going up with one person or the quad with only 2 people on a regular basis? I would expect to see that all lifts will run at all times a particular resort is open to alleviate lines. Resorts might have to rethink their skinning rules to allow skinning during operational hours. Wind holds will send most people to their car to stay warm. Lodges will become breeding grounds for Covid 19 infections (think of you ski mask as a Covid 19 dispenser). I don't know about all you, but my nose runs from the moment I leave my truck until I get in the lodge at the end of the day. Beards covered in snot and ice, melting in the lodge after skiing. Snot soaked ski masks laying around, people blowing their noses non-stop. Not sure how they are going to operate the bars at the ski resorts.  Mid afternoon the lodge is at capacity and the majority of the people occupying the lodge are hanging out having a drink, how are people that booted up in the lodge going to get in to take off their boots and leave?  As someone said, I could see huge tents setup as temporary lodges for people to get out of the weather.



I'm not super optimistic for gondolas or trams this year. Apparently Killington was going to/is running theirs this winter. Not something I've followed though. Trams have such terrible capacity that I'd rather hike up from the Flyer to the summit of Jay Peak on a weekend under depressed lift capacity anyway. 

Singles lines could get interesting, too. I think you could reasonably put two singles on each side of a quad, but we'll see what the conventional wisdom holds by the time ski season rolls around.


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## EPB (Jul 21, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I tend to agree.  Skiing is by and large a sport for high income people.  Comparable in summer would be pleasure boating.  From all reports I've read, boating is having a record season in terms of the number of boats sold.
> 
> So, I don't see demand for skiing diminishing much at all even if unemployment remains high.  This will especially be true if there are restrictions still in place for youth team sports.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



I do, too, with the one caveat that I'd expect day trip places to bear the brunt of the crowds (Wawa, Sunapee, Hunter types) over the resort types. If capacity in town is an issue, it can be hard to justify doing an overnight.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 21, 2020)

is anyone even allowed to go to VT?  Seems like those places will be empty this year if that continues  LOL


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## EPB (Jul 21, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> is anyone even allowed to go to VT?  Seems like those places will be empty this year if that continues  LOL


Would make the Catkills look like the beaches in Los Angeles.

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## prsboogie (Jul 21, 2020)

Crotched FTW!!

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## slatham (Jul 21, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> is anyone even allowed to go to VT?  Seems like those places will be empty this year if that continues  LOL



https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel

VT's non-quarantine areas are very limited. Obviously the need to quarantine takes most ski trips off the table. Either the situation improves, or the protocol changes.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2020)

The quarantine rules are being broken left and right.  I am surprised that states aren't making examples of some lodging operators.


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## Not Sure (Jul 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The quarantine rules are being broken left and right.  I am surprised that states aren't making examples of some lodging operators.



Who’s going to enforce this? No Covid cops ...yet.


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## slatham (Jul 21, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Who’s going to enforce this? No Covid cops ...yet.



Yes this is certainly more the honor system. And doing the right thing during an unprecedented pandemic - though this doesn't matter to a surprisingly large group of people......

However, it's more about potential liability. If you do not follow the quarantine and you end up sick you could have issues. If you end up giving it someone else you could have bigger issues. If you've checked into a hotel (or ski area?) and attested to meeting the quarantine and have not, you could have issues.


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## prsboogie (Jul 21, 2020)

I don't get why douche nozzles can't figure this out. You cannot walk into a convenience store without a shirt and expect service, same applies to masks

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## EPB (Jul 21, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> I don't get why douche nozzles can't figure this out. You cannot walk into a convenience store without a shirt and expect service, same applies to masks
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



Depends on where you are, right? In NJ suburbia where am, it's required and I haven't seen anyone try to get service without one. We were also the most heavily affected state in terms of death/capita, so people are naturally cautious.

Less affected comminutes presumably feel less of a need to mask up. Feels like more of a wedge issue to get people riled up and in front of their favorite performative news outlet than anything.

Our best way to have avoided excess deaths in greater NYC would have been to not send sick elderly people back to nursing homes. Not many people calling our fearless leaders "douche nozzles" though. 

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## JDMRoma (Jul 21, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Crotched FTW!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



They wont let you cross the NH line !! Blue Hills for you !!

Just kidding !!


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## prsboogie (Jul 21, 2020)

JDMRoma said:


> They wont let you cross the NH line !! Blue Hills for you !!
> 
> Just kidding !!


I have James Bond License Plates that flip depending on where I need to be LOL

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## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The quarantine rules are being broken left and right.  I am surprised that states aren't making examples of some lodging operators.



I was at Stowe yesterday, and they're running the gondys.   It's absurd for Vermont to have all these strict COVID19 regulations & simultaneously allow people to ride in coronavirus pods.  That is not "following the science".   

Also, in New Jersey everyone's following the mask rules.  Yesterday in Jeffersonville was the first time I've seen people indoors in stores without a mask in months.  Not passing judgements, just noticed that as in interesting observation.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Our best way to have avoided excess deaths in greater NYC would have been to not send sick elderly people back to nursing homes. Not many people calling our fearless leaders "douche nozzles" though.



Cuomo doesn't meet the sole criteria required for media criticism.


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## tnt1234 (Jul 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I was at Stowe yesterday, and they're running the gondys.   It's absurd for Vermont to have all these strict COVID19 regulations & simultaneously allow people to ride in coronavirus pods.  That is not "following the science".
> 
> Also, in New Jersey everyone's following the mask rules.  Yesterday in Jeffersonville was the first time I've seen people indoors in stores without a mask in months.  Not passing judgements, just noticed that as in interesting observation.




If you limit it to groups that arrived together, no different than riding in a car together.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The quarantine rules are being broken left and right.  I am surprised that states aren't making examples of some lodging operators.




NY  is fining people for not following the two week rule or being cooperative when the state asks for your info.  I completely disagree with the idea of it but I'm surprised with the stance VT has taken so far that.they arent enforcing there rules a bit more


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## icecoast1 (Jul 21, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Who’s going to enforce this? No Covid cops ...yet.




There are Covid cops in New York.  I also believe Connecticut is joining in now too


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## cdskier (Jul 21, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> If you limit it to groups that arrived together, no different than riding in a car together.



I don't know about you, but I always know who was in my car before me. So it is quite different unless they're sanitizing them after each group gets out.


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## skiur (Jul 21, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> NY  is fining people for not following the two week rule or being cooperative when the state asks for your info.  I completely disagree with the idea of it but I'm surprised with the stance VT has taken so far that.they arent enforcing there rules a bit more



That is not true, Cuomo has threatened to do it but quarantine is being broken all over and not a single ticket has been issued.  It's not really enforceable.


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## skiur (Jul 21, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> There are Covid cops in New York.  I also believe Connecticut is joining in now too



Fake news, there are not covid cops.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 21, 2020)

skiur said:


> Fake news, there are not covid cops.



What would you call the people stopping travelers at the gates at airports making sure they fill out their travel papers?


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## skiur (Jul 21, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> What would you call the people stopping travelers at the gates at airports making sure they fill out their travel papers?



Not happening, at least not at LaGuardia.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 21, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> If you limit it to groups that arrived together, no different than riding in a car together.



There's a great chance you'll get COVID19 if you ride in a car with someone COVID19 positive. 

We're talking about literally millions of nanometer sized particulate lingering post exhalation in a tiny box of perhaps 25 square feet with poor ventilation regardless of windows & door left open.

And the "wiping it down after each ride" idea I keep hearing is virtually useless,  as surface contact isn't a major issue. That's a "lawyer repellant" solution, not a medical solution.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 21, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> NY  is fining people for not following the two week rule or being cooperative when the state asks for your info.  I completely disagree with the idea of it but I'm surprised with the stance VT has taken so far that.they arent enforcing there rules a bit more


VT doesn't have the resources to enforce any restrictions they "mandate".  

 I've been in the state as an essential worker two - three days a week almost every week since the end of April.  The hotel lodging restrictions were legit the first six weeks.  You had to meet specific working criteria to get a hotel room at the very few open hotels. Second home owners wouldn't have to deal with that though.

Once the essential worker requirement for hotels expired, it's pretty much been free game back in VT except for restaurant capacity being reduced.  

The only enforcement trying to keep people out beyond that this whole time has been electric highway signs telling visitors to quarantine.

How is NY pulling off catching and fining people?  

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## icecoast1 (Jul 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> How is NY pulling off catching and fining people?




A lot of it was being left up to local authorities to enforce, which for a variety of reasons wasn't happening, yesterday the state announced they were going to start sending enforcment teams to airports to ensure the compliance is happening.   I think they're also hoping people snitch on eachother and report the offenders


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## prsboogie (Jul 22, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> If you limit it to groups that arrived together, no different than riding in a car together.


Do they stop the gondi after each car empties to sanitize it?? Doubt it

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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 22, 2020)

slatham said:


> https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel
> 
> VT's non-quarantine areas are very limited. Obviously the need to quarantine takes most ski trips off the table. Either the situation improves, or the protocol changes.



Well based on this map, anyone who lives in an even somewhat populated county outside of Vermont, New Hampshire, and extreme upstate New York aren't technically allowed to go to VT.  

Sure people are breaking the rules, but a lot of people aren't and this clearly spells trouble for the ski areas.  Looks like my 2-3 trips to VT this winter will likely not happen...  

While I'll miss the skiing, its the beer haul I'll mist the most  :lol::lol::lol:


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## mister moose (Jul 22, 2020)

This season is going to be different in other ways no one has discussed yet.  

The trend to lower infection rates as low as possible has the effect of increasing the time needed for herd immunity, and increases the length of time the virus will be an economic and lifestyle factor.  If there is no herd immunity possible with this virus, then there is also no vaccine.  You still end up with a long virus duration.   The industry cannot depend on a vaccine this season and if one is found and manufactured and distributed, it won't shift resort procedures before much of the season is over.  After Presidents day, it's all downhill in revenue.

Resorts are looking at heavily reduced capacity and (based on A-basin and Southern Hemisphere) strong demand.  They will need to replace that revenue somewhere, they will not have an appetite to lose money.  The only way for that to happen is to find new revenue streams or increase prices.  It will not surprise me if there are zero discounts available on peak days.  No ticket 4 packs or ski club vouchers.  Less spontaneity, more advance date commitment.   Cutting longer lines and lotteries with a ski school private lesson may become more widely seen.  Food, where available, will be more expensive.  

Operating in weather where everyone seeks shelter throughout the day such as rain or extreme cold will be more limited, or we may even see closures.

To increase revenue to offset the reduced capacity, we may see new fees.  Reservation fees, ticket processing fees, parking fees, shuttle fees, table fees.  

Mountain owned/managed real estate may get priority on ticket lotteries.  Who will book a condo if they can't get a ticket?

Condo sales will dwindle to a trickle, but prices won't fall.  Rentals could be very strong.  The Northeast has probably the nation's highest ratio of nearby population to ski areas, and seasonal rentals this season could be in high demand.  More work from home people will move to ski towns for the winter and ski midweek.

An area like Okemo with a big reliance on remote lots with shuttle busses will need a big change.  Open air seating might be the replacement.  Resort shuttle busses will have 2/3 less capacity and they will need to have more of them.  Lines will be longer and fees might be introduced.

Industry learn to ski specials will disappear.  Casual interest level skiers just won't endure the travel, cost and reservation burden.

Ambassador programs should stay strong.  Free labor will be even more valuable this season.  Numbers will fall though as over 70 ambassadors opt out.

Opening day will be pushed back a week or two.

I'm expecting to go wine, beer and bottled cocktails in the food court, no bars open.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2020)

Demand might be strong on seasonal rentals, but at least where I had been looking in the MWV, the supply has not increased.  Apparently the shutdowns of Airbnbs last winter has not spooked owners enough to go the safer route by going seasonal vs short term.

Pre-Covid I had fully planned on doing a seasonal rental for this season.  I'm 90% certain I will not be doing it now.  I just don't see myself getting the value I hoped for as Wildcat hasn't announced how they plan on managing seasonal kids programs.  Between that and not knowing what the lodge situation will be like (important when you have young kids) I'm just not feeling the investment will be good.   I still look though and the agencies I have been working with have not added any inventory. 


The work from home scenario you describe will definitely happen.  Many city folks are opting to move to their vacation homes for this school year.  I was reading an article the other day about it.  The article stated that enrollment at the elementary school in Waterville Valley has more than doubled for next year from 17 students to 40.  I imagine many resort towns are experiencing similar.  

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## cdskier (Jul 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> The work from home scenario you describe will definitely happen.  Many city folks are opting to move to their vacation homes for this school year.



If there are still a lot of restrictions once ski season rolls around and if I can still work remotely essentially full-time, then I'd definitely be likely to consider installing Internet in my condo in VT and working from up there at least part of the winter.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 22, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Well based on this map, anyone who lives in an even somewhat populated county outside of Vermont, New Hampshire, and extreme upstate New York aren't technically allowed to go to VT.
> 
> Sure people are breaking the rules, but a lot of people aren't and this clearly spells trouble for the ski areas.  Looks like my 2-3 trips to VT this winter will likely not happen...
> 
> While I'll miss the skiing, its the beer haul I'll mist the most  :lol::lol::lol:



This is incorrect.  People from the populated counties outside VT are allowed in to the state subject to the quarantine requirements.  And those requirements dont necessarily entail quarantining for 2 weeks in VT.  You can quarantine at home prior to traveling to vt or get tested, and provide contact information.

I was just up in VT for a week and followed the rules.  It wasnt a problem.  and I came home with shit ton of Lawsons.


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## cdskier (Jul 22, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> This is incorrect.  People from the populated counties outside VT are allowed in to the state subject to the quarantine requirements.  And those requirements dont necessarily entail quarantining for 2 weeks in VT.  You can quarantine at home prior to traveling to vt or get tested, and provide contact information.



Yes you can quarantine at home for 2 weeks, but honestly, how many people are truly able (or willing) to do that? To be fully compliant with a "quarantine" means you can't leave your house for 14 full days (even to go out for a walk at home or get groceries). Even if you get tested, that still requires 7 days quarantine plus the negative test. And as soon as you leave VT, wouldn't the requirements reset? So if you're a weekend skier in VT that wants to go "home" midweek, it is simply impossible to meet the quarantine rules every week. For people that only do 1 or 2 trips it might be doable, but not for your "regulars".

As is right now in the summer I know people that are traveling to VT for vacation and not following those rules. In the winter when you have even more people there would be even more non-compliance.


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## EPB (Jul 22, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> You can quarantine at home prior to traveling to vt or get tested, and provide contact information.



So practically speaking, one just needs to pretend they quarantined at home and show up negative now?


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## slatham (Jul 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yes you can quarantine at home for 2 weeks, but honestly, how many people are truly able (or willing) to do that? To be fully compliant with a "quarantine" means you can't leave your house for 14 full days (even to go out for a walk at home or get groceries). Even if you get tested, that still requires 7 days quarantine plus the negative test. And as soon as you leave VT, wouldn't the requirements reset? So if you're a weekend skier in VT that wants to go "home" midweek, it is simply impossible to meet the quarantine rules every week. For people that only do 1 or 2 trips it might be doable, but not for your "regulars".
> 
> As is right now in the summer I know people that are traveling to VT for vacation and not following those rules. In the winter when you have even more people there would be even more non-compliance.



You can go for a walk during quarantine. The core premise is no contact with people. So yes, grocery shopping is out. And it doesn't automatically reset by crossing the state line. If you go home for a day and have zero contact then no reset. 

The issue is if you/spouse work, or have kids in school, or some other required outside personal contact. The 14 day - or 7 day and negative test - just doesn't seem practical for a VT ski trip.

So we are left with either your home county falling below 400/million, or VT changes the rules.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 22, 2020)

slatham said:


> *You can go for a walk during quarantine*. The core premise is no contact with people. So yes, grocery shopping is out. *And it doesn't automatically reset by crossing the state line*. If you go home for a day and have zero contact then no reset.



Not according to VT on both statements that I highlighted in bold...
https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites...rt-observation-isolation-quarantine_final.pdf


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## HowieT2 (Jul 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yes you can quarantine at home for 2 weeks, but honestly, how many people are truly able (or willing) to do that? To be fully compliant with a "quarantine" means you can't leave your house for 14 full days (even to go out for a walk at home or get groceries). Even if you get tested, that still requires 7 days quarantine plus the negative test. And as soon as you leave VT, wouldn't the requirements reset? So if you're a weekend skier in VT that wants to go "home" midweek, it is simply impossible to meet the quarantine rules every week. For people that only do 1 or 2 trips it might be doable, but not for your "regulars".
> 
> As is right now in the summer I know people that are traveling to VT for vacation and not following those rules. In the winter when you have even more people there would be even more non-compliance.



Agreed, people are being non compliant with the letter of the law but it is possible.

Its July so 5 months until ski season.  The counties in NYS that have active cases above 400 per million (the quarantine threshold), are just above the threshold and decreasing for the most part.  I don't want to get ahead myself, but I hope, the quarantine won't be an issue come December.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 22, 2020)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/new-york-coronavirus-cases.html#cases

So here's a link to the current data for NYS.  unfortunately there is no information about "active cases" as Vermont defines it.  But there is data for new cases over the past 7 days.  Let's assume a new case remains "active" for 2 weeks.  Westchester for example had 23/100k, that would be 460/million or just above the VT quarantine threshold.  And new cases on 7/21 were 3.3/100k down from 4.3 2 weeks ago.  Unfortunately there are other counties where the numbers are rising and that's a problem but the NYC metro counties basically look like westchester.


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2020)

I go west for skiing nearly every year. Everyone in my group agrees we’re not willing to fly out there this coming season. 

It’ll be interesting to see how Colorado fares with ski visits. I assume their business models rely on out of staters for skiing. A few will come, no doubt. 

If Canada lifts restrictions on US residents crossing the border, I’d do a Quebec trip I think. Might get some weird vibes up there though.


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## djd66 (Jul 22, 2020)

I hate to say it, But I think this ski season could really suck.  If numbers get worse and VT is completely shut down to out of stater's like me, I don't see how a lot of place will survive.  Even if I can go, all the procedures that I am imagining will make things so it is just not worth it.


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## Edd (Jul 22, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I hate to say it, But I think this ski season could really suck.  If numbers get worse and VT is completely shut down to out of stater's like me, I don't see how a lot of place will survive.  Even if I can go, all the procedures that I am imagining will make things so it is just not worth it.



I’d think the northeast areas stand a better chance than the western ones. They don’t come here. We go there. But not this year. 


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## mikec142 (Jul 22, 2020)

I'm holding out hope for some serious changes...I sprang for the Ikon unlimited this year instead of just doing Sugarbush quad packs.  But if current restrictions hold, I will have a very hard time skiing in VT (I live in NJ) and an even harder time getting out west.  I bought because if I recall correctly you can elect to roll over your pass to the following year.  Hoping for the best.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 23, 2020)

Edd said:


> *I go west for skiing nearly every year.* *Everyone in my group agrees we’re not willing to fly out there this coming season. *



I'd have no fear going out west to ski.  I'd rent a condo & a rental car as per usual.  The "sacrifices" or COVID19 specific changes I'd make (assuming the trip is pre-vaccine) is that I'd avoid indoor restaurants & gondolas.



mikec142 said:


> *if current restrictions hold, I will have a very hard time skiing in VT (I live in NJ) *and an even harder time getting out west.



Depends where you live in NJ.  I just got back tonight from 5.5 days in Vermont, and there's less COVID19 in my NJ county than there is in the county Smuggler's North / Stowe are located in, much less Burlington.


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## Zand (Jul 23, 2020)

I've already flown this summer and everything seemed like it was being done safely. I'll have no problem traveling to more isolated places like Jackson, Big Sky, Steamboat, etc this winter if things stay similar to how they are now. Madhouses like Utah and Summit County are a different story. Staying the hell away from Florida for a while.


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## JimG. (Jul 23, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/new-york-coronavirus-cases.html#cases
> 
> So here's a link to the current data for NYS.  unfortunately there is no information about "active cases" as Vermont defines it.  But there is data for new cases over the past 7 days.  Let's assume a new case remains "active" for 2 weeks.  Westchester for example had 23/100k, that would be 460/million or just above the VT quarantine threshold.  And new cases on 7/21 were 3.3/100k down from 4.3 2 weeks ago.  Unfortunately there are other counties where the numbers are rising and that's a problem but the NYC metro counties basically look like westchester.


. 
My county in NY suddenly jumped to restricted because the 2 prisons (Greenhaven and Fishkill) added their numbers in.

Because you know prisoners want to go skiing too. 

This season is going to be interesting and even more ridiculousness is ahead.


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## machski (Jul 23, 2020)

Vermont is nuts.  I live in Hillsborough County NH by 1/2 mile (1/2 mile east and I would be in Londonderry in Rockinham County).  Our county is on the bad list but that is due currently to Goffstown being over 100 active cases (surprisingly less in Manchester and Nashua, but Goffstown does have a state prison in town).  My town?  Less than 5 active cases and we do all our shopping next door in the "good for VT" county.  Add to it, our /million rate is THE SAME currently as 3 COUNTIES in VT!  But, we can't come.  That's fine, I'll stay in NH and Maine this winter.  Screw VT if they want to play these silly games.  It might be ok if all their counties were below their standards, but where they aren't, they are being hypocrits now.

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## icecoast1 (Jul 23, 2020)

machski said:


> Vermont is nuts.  I live in Hillsborough County NH by 1/2 mile (1/2 mile east and I would be in Londonderry in Rockinham County).  Our county is on the bad list but that is due currently to Goffstown being over 100 active cases (surprisingly less in Manchester and Nashua, but Goffstown does have a state prison in town).  My town?  Less than 5 active cases and we do all our shopping next door in the "good for VT" county.  Add to it, our /million rate is THE SAME currently as 3 COUNTIES in VT!  But, we can't come.  That's fine, I'll stay in NH and Maine this winter.  Screw VT if they want to play these silly games.  It might be ok if all their counties were below their standards, but where they aren't, they are being hypocrits now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app




My County in rural NY keeps going back and forth as it's right on the threshold on VTs list.  Seems kind of crazy, even at the peak of things, we never really had a huge problem.   Its getting a bit ridiculous at this point


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## drjeff (Jul 23, 2020)

machski said:


> Vermont is nuts.  I live in Hillsborough County NH by 1/2 mile (1/2 mile east and I would be in Londonderry in Rockinham County).  Our county is on the bad list but that is due currently to Goffstown being over 100 active cases (surprisingly less in Manchester and Nashua, but Goffstown does have a state prison in town).  My town?  Less than 5 active cases and we do all our shopping next door in the "good for VT" county.  Add to it, our /million rate is THE SAME currently as 3 COUNTIES in VT!  But, we can't come.  That's fine, I'll stay in NH and Maine this winter.  Screw VT if they want to play these silly games.  It might be ok if all their counties were below their standards, but where they aren't, they are being hypocrits now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



I hear you with the prison population influence factor and VT's numbers. With last weeks VT map update, my home County in CT finally hit "green" status, even though to date, my county has had less than 650 total cases out of a County population of about 110,000 and we had a "spike" about 3 weeks ago on the VT map when the prison in the town I live in dropped 132 positive cases into the County report. If you remove those cases from my Counties total, we're at just over 500 total cases for the County and 12 deaths (8 from 1 nursing home) this entire time. And up until last weeks VT's numbers, we've been a quarantine county.... :roll::roll::roll:


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## EPB (Jul 24, 2020)

Edd said:


> I go west for skiing nearly every year. Everyone in my group agrees we’re not willing to fly out there this coming season.
> 
> It’ll be interesting to see how Colorado fares with ski visits. I assume their business models rely on out of staters for skiing. A few will come, no doubt.
> 
> If Canada lifts restrictions on US residents crossing the border, I’d do a Quebec trip I think. Might get some weird vibes up there though.





BenedictGomez said:


> I'd have no fear going out west to ski.  I'd rent a condo & a rental car as per usual.  The "sacrifices" or COVID19 specific changes I'd make (assuming the trip is pre-vaccine) is that I'd avoid indoor restaurants & gondolas.



Shocking you guys are on the opposite side of this one. :grin: 

I remember in one of my squishy business school classes a professor talking about this phenomenon whereby people assume their preferences/tendencies are "normal". As an example, most people think it's unethical to lie in negotiations. When those people are asked, they think ~2/3 of people also think lying in negotiations is unethical. They happen to be right. When you ask someone who thinks that it's fine to lie in negotiations, they also assume that ~2/3 of the population thinks its fine, too.

The only way we're going to know is to wait and watch it pan out. I suppose my best guess for what lodging clientele will look like out west this year involves a lot of cowboy hats, red meat consumption per capita, etc.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 24, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Shocking you guys are on the opposite side of this one. :grin:




To be fair, MOST people will be on the opposite side of me on this one.   I dont care; I simply follow the science & let it guide me wherever it will, and "the science" is about the last thing you're currently hearing in the media.   If the story isn't about everyone dying from COVID19 (twice), it's not covered.  The public is being unnecessarily scared for both marketing dollars & politics, in that magnitudinal order.  Precautions need to be taken against this very serious virus, but life does not need to stop, and that includes skiing outdoors.


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## bizarrefaith (Jul 24, 2020)

Not sure if this got discussed upthread but Boyne suspended all season pass sales June 15th - so Sugarloaf, Loon, Big Sky, Sunday River - no passes available to purchase now and no details about when or if they will go back on sale.


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## mbedle (Jul 24, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> Not sure if this got discussed upthread but Boyne suspended all season pass sales June 15th - so Sugarloaf, Loon, Big Sky, Sunday River - no passes available to purchase now and no details about when or if they will go back on sale.



"As we further develop our operating plans for next season, we may limit the total number of season passes we sell." That might be really good news for Saddleback this season.


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## Edd (Jul 25, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> Not sure if this got discussed upthread but Boyne suspended all season pass sales June 15th - so Sugarloaf, Loon, Big Sky, Sunday River - no passes available to purchase now and no details about when or if they will go back on sale.



I didn’t know that. I was holding off on buying an Epic but maybe I shouldn’t.


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## prsboogie (Jul 25, 2020)

Edd said:


> I didn’t know that. I was holding off on buying an Epic but maybe I shouldn’t.


Boyne was very clear on their websites what they were doing several months ago. EPIC has made no indication they would limit sales to this point. 

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## Zand (Jul 25, 2020)

Not sure how MA plans on enforcing its new rules about signing up on their website when traveling and then quarantining 2 weeks or face a $500 per day fine. But if they somehow do figure out how to enforce it then west trips just got much more difficult this year. That plus Vermont and Maine keeping us out might lead to a deferral on the Ikon pass this year. Would be looking at either Epic or maybe a Cannon pass.


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## machski (Jul 25, 2020)

Zand said:


> Not sure how MA plans on enforcing its new rules about signing up on their website when traveling and then quarantining 2 weeks or face a $500 per day fine. But if they somehow do figure out how to enforce it then west trips just got much more difficult this year. That plus Vermont and Maine keeping us out might lead to a deferral on the Ikon pass this year. Would be looking at either Epic or maybe a Cannon pass.


The only way they could would be for air travelers to have to sign in upon arrival at Logan (or Worcester if they still have any commercial flights there).  So the key would be to just go around BOS (use MHT or PVD) this winter if need be.  I know options are even more limited than usual out of both right now, but there are options to be creative.  No way MA would be able to enforce by car.

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## Edd (Jul 25, 2020)

Article about Gunstock and COVID approaches. It’s mostly summer but it gets into winter at the end. 


https://www.laconiadailysun.com/new...cle_1e58c082-cba7-11ea-a376-53bdbf32b0be.html


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## thetrailboss (Jul 25, 2020)

machski said:


> The only way they could would be for air travelers to have to sign in upon arrival at Logan (or Worcester if they still have any commercial flights there).  So the key would be to just go around BOS (use MHT or PVD) this winter if need be.  I know options are even more limited than usual out of both right now, but there are options to be creative.  No way MA would be able to enforce by car.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Until Southwest or someone else increases service to MHT, don't expect a lot of flights.  Two years ago or so Southwest moved most of their ops to BOS and took flights away from MHT and PWM.  Both are shadows of their former selves.  It is sad and makes our trips more difficult as arriving in BOS on a late afternoon results in sitting in traffic jams on I-93 to go north.


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## machski (Jul 26, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Until Southwest or someone else increases service to MHT, don't expect a lot of flights.  Two years ago or so Southwest moved most of their ops to BOS and took flights away from MHT and PWM.  Both are shadows of their former selves.  It is sad and makes our trips more difficult as arriving in BOS on a late afternoon results in sitting in traffic jams on I-93 to go north.


Yeah, I don't see MHT or PVD gaining much service beyond what they have or had and are scheduled to get back this fall.  Southwest built  both up huge but cut back and shifted to BOS when they felt a major threat from JetBlue at BOS.  PVD had also pissed Southwest off, Southwest wanted a runway expansion of 5/23 to 9000' minimum to allow nonstop flights to the west coast.  PVD never managed that, so that was a big part of their shift from there.  MHT got the runways lengthened but in the end, wasn't enough to keep them after they shifted strategy.

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## fullsend7 (Jul 26, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Until Southwest or someone else increases service to MHT, don't expect a lot of flights.  Two years ago or so Southwest moved most of their ops to BOS and took flights away from MHT and PWM.  Both are shadows of their former selves.  It is sad and makes our trips more difficult as arriving in BOS on a late afternoon results in sitting in traffic jams on I-93 to go north.



What sucks is all the new bs regulations to flying from this virus.  And I think they are going to make these new mask requirements permanent, because government.  It stinks for me because I usually have to get on a plane to go skiing.  I haven't been on a plane this year and therefor didn't get hardly any skiing.  Skiing must have been awesome in the 90's when you could just hop on a plane quickly and fly to awesome mountains half way across the country.


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## Keelhauled (Jul 26, 2020)

Dude, the mask requirements for flying are all coming from the airlines, not the government.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 26, 2020)

Keelhauled said:


> Dude, the mask requirements for flying are all coming from the airlines, not the government.



We have flown twice since the the quarantine and we were required to wear a face to go through security but walking around it was a mixed bag where about 2/3 of the people were wearing them.  You have to have them on to get on the plane but once you were seated people took them off not all though.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 26, 2020)

Earlier the were talks of limitations on capacity and lodge use.  Ski teams/races bring in huge groups and I would hope if crowds are limited they limit them too!  I would imagine apres ski being limited too!


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## VTKilarney (Jul 27, 2020)

I flew last week.  Lots and lots of people had their face mask below their nose.  Lots of people had no face mask at all because they were eating or drinking. Many people had a drink that appeared to be a prop in order to give them an excuse not to wear their mask.  They would take a small sip every few minutes just to keep up the charade.  Overall, I was pretty appalled.

This was in the Logan terminal.  I was the only passenger on my Cape Air flights to/from Lebanon, NH and Boston.  I had a credit that was about to expire so I made a day trip to pick some things up in Boston that my wife wanted.


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## kbroderick (Jul 27, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Earlier the were talks of limitations on capacity and lodge use.  Ski teams/races bring in huge groups and I would hope if crowds are limited they limit them too!  I would imagine apres ski being limited too!



The ski-racing community was quicker to respond than most during the initial stages of the European and American outbreak in March, and discussion has been going on since then as to what the coming season will look like. I don't know a whole lot about what any particular resort or club will be doing, but managing off-snow time is definitely a topic of discussion, as is what the competition schedule will look like.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Lots and lots of* people had their face mask below their nose*.



This is a new form of IQ test.  

 Those people failed.


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## Not Sure (Jul 27, 2020)

benedictgomez said:


> this is a new form of iq test.
> 
> Those people failed.



lol


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## Cornhead (Jul 27, 2020)

I didn't want to add text, but I had to.

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## Not Sure (Jul 28, 2020)




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## BenedictGomez (Jul 29, 2020)

Bingo.    

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-...ers-exposure-to-viruses-experts-propose-67776


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## prsboogie (Jul 29, 2020)

This has been well known by anyone with the least bit of common sense. 

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## JimG. (Jul 29, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> I didn't want to add text, but I had to.View attachment 27004View attachment 27005
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Jerry


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## Domeskier (Jul 29, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Jerry



Nice!


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## thebigo (Jul 29, 2020)

Wildcat was scheduled to offer scenic lift rides in late summer and fall but pulled the plug. Website mentions infrastructure projects in the base area, may be cover for we were not making any money but not sure. 

Maybe they are finally fixing the water? Or bathrooms? Going to be impossible to distance in the basement bathrooms. 

*



			​Summer Update 07/27/2020 -
		
Click to expand...

*


> At this time, we have decided to keep Wildcat closed for the summer and fall in order to allow our team to complete several key resort infrastructure projects aimed at delivering a better guest experience both in our base area and on mountain. We are looking forward to the upcoming winter ski and ride season here at Wildcat and appreciate everyone’s patience as we complete these improvements.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2020)

I have driven by Cat four times this week.  Haven't seen anything major going on.  Just a few cars in the parking lot

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## ss20 (Jul 29, 2020)

Q/A with Killington's GM-  Actual info from a resort exec- not opinionated BS like the rest of this thread-

https://www.mountaintimes.info/qa-with-mike-solimano-5/



> MT: What are the range of options you’re considering for winter? Will the base lodges be limited — or expanded to meet social distancing requirements? Is there a chance you won’t open at all?
> 
> MS: This winter will bring many changes, many of which we’re still discovering as we plan for the season at Killington and Pico. Overall, our main focus will be trying to provide as much skiing/riding as possible.  Since the science says that the spread of Covid is more likely indoors, we will prioritize our focus on ensuring that our main products of skiing and riding can be maximized by our guests. The current rules limit capacity in buildings to 50% and we expect that those or similar restrictions will be in place during this season. We are considering all options but it is clear that we will not have enough indoor space for everyone that will want to be indoors on busier days. We will probably need to prohibit using the lodges as areas to “boot up” or we will reach our capacity before we even open for skiing for the day. There’s a good chance we won’t be operating smaller outlets like the yurt or the motor room bar since they already have such limited capacity that we will need to focus on the larger spaces and ensuring maximum utilization of our main base lodges. The social scene that is prevalent at Killington in the bars will change substantially as currently bars are not allowed open in Vermont. We are planning on changing our food & beverage options to a much more simplified offering that can be taken “to-go.” We will also offer take-out windows for food during periods we are experiencing capacity constraints in lodges. There are so many implications of having capacity constraints indoors that I can’t review them all, but our guests should assume every option is on the table. It is likely that many guests will go from their car to the slopes and back to their car without ever going inside to a lodge – this will be the new normal for this season at Killington and Pico. We hear the rumors floating around town regarding concern around Pico even opening for the season. Rest assured, we plan on opening Pico Mountain in whatever capacity COVID-19 allows.



Looks pretty positive to me.  Stay out of the lodges (as expected) and grab/go food only.  No mention of limited ticket sales, or only being allowed to ride lifts with people in your household.  

Gee I thought he was supposed to say "the world is going to stop spinning, break-out the AT gear, ski season cancelled"


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2020)

And yet the K-1 gondola is currently running, so that guy should probably lay off chirping about what,  "_the science says_", multiple times in that article.


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## bizarrefaith (Jul 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> And yet the K-1 gondola is currently running, so that guy should probably lay off chirping about what,  "_the science says_", multiple times in that article.



"what the science says" has already been assimilated into the lexicon of generic meaningless management-speak.


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## Edd (Jul 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> And yet the K-1 gondola is currently running, so that guy should probably lay off chirping about what,  "_the science says_", multiple times in that article.



It seems ok if they’re not grouping strangers, which I can’t imagine is happening. It seems like current restaurant rules. People that sit at a table together would be ok sharing a gondola, I assume. 

Unless you’re just lashing out against gondolas, which I’m 100% on board with.


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## drjeff (Jul 30, 2020)

Edd said:


> It seems ok if they’re not grouping strangers, which I can’t imagine is happening. It seems like current restaurant rules. People that sit at a table together would be ok sharing a gondola, I assume.
> 
> Unless you’re just lashing out against gondolas, which I’m 100% on board with.



Exactly during Summer ops. Pretty much unless its prime leaf peeping season, chances are that there are more boxes going up the line empty every day than with people in them right now, so keeping usage limited to just people in the same group of friends/family who have already been associating together isn't much of a challenge right now. Come winter time, or even later this Fall when K needs to use the box to get folks up to the top for the hike down to Rime, then I can see the line situation, even with the likely limited ticket volume of folks on the hill on any given day, being more of an issue.

Otherwise, a quick spray down of the inside of one of the cabins before it leaves the Summit terminal, and it has about 8 minutes to do it's thing, which should be fine, as the stuff that I use in my office to clean a room after aerosol generation procedures works in 5 minutes


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## thebigo (Jul 30, 2020)

People huffing past each other and traffic jams on the stairs may be a bigger problem than the box. Wonder if they will wait until the stairs are one way to open.


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## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2020)

Silly question . Isn't the whole point moot if the state doesn't open up to other than locals ? 
"The State of Vermont has determined that any county with less than 400 active cases of COVID-19 per one million residents is now eligible for quarantine-free leisure travel" .
 Pretty much only rural New England falls into the allowable category .
 What portion of skier visits are out of state ?

https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 30, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> *"what the science says" has already been assimilated into the lexicon of generic meaningless management-speak.*



Well said.



Edd said:


> *It seems ok if they’re not grouping strangers*, which I can’t imagine is happening. It seems like current restaurant rules. People that sit at a table together would be ok sharing a gondola, I assume.
> 
> Unless you’re just lashing out against gondolas, which I’m 100% on board with.



Not true at all.   The only thing keeping those gondys from being coronavirus capsules right now is the fact it's summertime.  Lack of people = lower statistical chance of having infected hosts, as well as a lower statistical chance of people then coming into contact with virus by people put in the exact same gondy car.  But if they start running those boxes on the lines with people in every gondy, folks will get COVID19, whether that be fall or winter.  Bonus points for winter having lack of sunlight & low humidity.

But yes, I also hate gondolas, though unrelated to this subject.



drjeff said:


> * a quick spray down of the inside of one of the cabins before it leaves the Summit terminal, and it has about 8 minutes to do it's thing, which should be fine*, as the stuff that I use in my office to clean a room after aerosol generation procedures works in 5 minutes



A quick spray down of what exactly?  We're talking about a 20 square foot box basically filled with nanometer viral particles.  If you think some 17 year kid "spraying" something for 3 seconds per box is going to protect you, have at it if you like, but I'd strongly suggest against it.


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## EPB (Jul 30, 2020)

Any chance gondis operate this year without some or all their windows? Not sure how hard they are to get off/on, or if this would turn them into total wind sails. That said, I have a hard time believing they are a good idea given the conventionnel wisdom as of today.

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## VTKilarney (Jul 31, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Looks pretty positive to me.  Stay out of the lodges (as expected) and grab/go food only.  No mention of limited ticket sales, or only being allowed to ride lifts with people in your household.
> 
> Gee I thought he was supposed to say "the world is going to stop spinning, break-out the AT gear, ski season cancelled"


Yeah, it’s not like a ski resort executive would try to put a positive spin on things.  /sarcasm

The flaw in your logic is the assumption that anything will be up to this executive.  The state will come up with a set of rules for ski areas just as they have done for other industries.


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## Newpylong (Jul 31, 2020)

Everyone is going to try to polish this turd but If there is a straight shooter out of all ski resort execs it is Solimano. I have met and observed plenty and he is about as good as they come. The Nyberg era (ie the early Powdr doldrums) really shaped his leadership style and openness.


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## ALLSKIING (Jul 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> And yet the K-1 gondola is currently running, so that guy should probably lay off chirping about what,  "_the science says_", multiple times in that article.


You ride it with people in your house hold is what the sign says. Of course thats up to your group.

Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Smellytele (Jul 31, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> You ride it with people in your house hold is what the sign says. Of course thats up to your group.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app



Not enough line space to separate people is going to be part of the problem. the line for the gondi is crazy 1st thing in the morning without social distancing. Add social distancing and you be wrapped up and around the lodge over to superstar.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 31, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Yeah, it’s not like a ski resort executive would try to put a positive spin on things.  /sarcasm
> 
> The flaw in your logic is the assumption that anything will be up to this executive.  The state will come up with a set of rules for ski areas just as they have done for other industries.




Yup, these mountains are certainly hoping and planning on having a ski season but in the end it's not really up to them.  Some states will probably fare better.than others as far as restrictions.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> *You ride it with people in your house hold is what the sign says. *Of course thats up to your group.



Viral particles can linger in the air for several hours.

We already know this is an enclosed issue indoors in bars, restaurants, and stores.  Now do shoebox.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2020)

Here's another way to look at it; replace each dollar bill with an active COVID19 viral particle & that's my depiction of riding in gondolas right now.


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## Edd (Jul 31, 2020)

This seems like a great excuse to get rid of gondolas at ski areas. Is it possible to replace the cars with chairs? Considering chondolas exist, I assume you can. Not cheap, though. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## cdskier (Jul 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Viral particles can linger in the air for several hours.
> 
> We already know this is an enclosed issue indoors in bars, restaurants, and stores.  Now do shoebox.



I don't get why people have a problem grasping this concept. The virus doesn't magically disappear from a tiny enclosed space as soon as an infected person leaves that space.


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## AdironRider (Jul 31, 2020)

Edd said:


> This seems like a great excuse to get rid of gondolas at ski areas. Is it possible to replace the cars with chairs? Considering chondolas exist, I assume you can. Not cheap, though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



Wildcat did this (maybe they still do?) for ages. Gondolas in summer, chairs winter.


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## Edd (Jul 31, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Wildcat did this (maybe they still do?) for ages. Gondolas in summer, chairs winter.



Yeah, they do. I’d forgotten about them.


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## EPB (Jul 31, 2020)

Edd said:


> This seems like a great excuse to get rid of gondolas at ski areas. Is it possible to replace the cars with chairs? Considering chondolas exist, I assume you can. Not cheap, though.



I'd be down. As a side point, I actually kinda like chondolas because the gondola loving-crowd self selects into the longer of the two lines. 

For how often I ski the place (very sparingly), it would be great to see this prompt Jay Peak to add a short double to the summit like they briefly had. I despise trams.

https://newenglandskihistory.com/lifts/viewlift.php?id=285


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## nhskier1969 (Jul 31, 2020)

As we know, most resorts are going to have a problem with inside facilities.  I am not sure if someone mentioned already, why can the resort rent/buy several wedding tents and put a ton of heat lamps in it?
Maybe have it for brown baggers.  They normally make up half the seats


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## mbedle (Jul 31, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> As we know, most resorts are going to have a problem with inside facilities.  I am not sure if someone mentioned already, why can the resort rent/buy several wedding tents and put a ton of heat lamps in it?
> Maybe have it for brown baggers.  They normally make up half the seats



I would guess that will happen at a lot of places. I would also expect to see a lot of people drinking in the parking lots and getting a lot of fines for doing so.... lol Stowe parking lot is going to be a shitstorm on the weekend, not that it isn't already...


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## skiur (Jul 31, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I would guess that will happen at a lot of places. I would also expect to see a lot of people drinking in the parking lots and getting a lot of fines for doing so.... lol Stowe parking lot is going to be a shitstorm on the weekend, not that it isn't already...



It isn't illegal to drink on the street in VT.  NY it is, I don't know about NH or ME.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2020)

cdskier said:


> *I don't get why people have a problem grasping this concept. *The virus doesn't magically disappear from a tiny enclosed space as soon as an infected person leaves that space.



I think that's a bit harsh.  I'm educated & trained to understand this crap, but I can see if you dont have exposure to healthcare how the physics of viral particulate isnt exactly common knowledge.   

What I do find bizarre is the cognitive dissonance on the part of ski area management, very publicly acting as if the 24,000 square foot "indoor ski lodge" must be defended & protected against at any expense to diligently guard against this serious viral threat 24/7, but let's just completely ignore all those 24 square foot gondy cars & sweep them under the rug as if they dont exist.  Forgive me for being cynical, but I have a hard time believing it isnt intentional.


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## drjeff (Jul 31, 2020)

While BG I do respect your opinions on most things, gotta call BS on this. As someone who works within 2 feet of numerous people who have who knows what, while generating an intense areosol spray within that 2 feet for about a quarter century now, with hardly ever a communic able disease ever caught, proper mask wearing and personal hygiene is a combo that works. 

Ones own personal fear levels are certainly legit, but the reality is with COVID 19, that proper PPE and some social distancing makes a massive advantage. I trust implicitly my own health and that of my families, even times 2, since my wife is an orthodontist who is also working in close quarters to numerous oral cavities every day she's in her office, with a mask, and proper hand washing. 

Its time to be realistic or be media scared for all but the most at risk segements of the population





BenedictGomez said:


> I think that's a bit harsh.  I'm educated & trained to understand this crap, but I can see if you dont have exposure to healthcare how the physics of viral particulate isnt exactly common knowledge.
> 
> What I do find bizarre is the cognitive dissonance on the part of ski area management, very publicly acting as if the 24,000 square foot "indoor ski lodge" must be defended & protected against at any expense to diligently guard against this serious viral threat 24/7, but let's just completely ignore all those 24 square foot gondy cars & sweep them under the rug as if they dont exist.  Forgive me for being cynical, but I have a hard time believing it isnt intentional.



Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Jul 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think that's a bit harsh.  I'm educated & trained to understand this crap, but I can see if you dont have exposure to healthcare how the physics of viral particulate isnt exactly common knowledge.
> 
> What I do find bizarre is the cognitive dissonance on the part of ski area management, very publicly acting as if the 24,000 square foot "indoor ski lodge" must be defended & protected against at any expense to diligently guard against this serious viral threat 24/7, but let's just completely ignore all those 24 square foot gondy cars & sweep them under the rug as if they dont exist.  Forgive me for being cynical, but I have a hard time believing it isnt intentional.



I don't see these as being one in the same and certainly not an issue anyone is trying to hide or trivialize. There could potentiallly be hundreds of people in the lodge, within fairly close proximity, likely with poor air circulation, no gloves on, and no two parties likely from the same household.

A gondola may be 4? people at a time that likely will be in the same group. These people will be fully clothed, not touching anything with bare skin, and the cabins will have 10 minutes unoccupied on the way down. Hopefully good airflow with windows open if they can figure that out. 

Yes Covid can be aerosolized but I think all things considered if you're gonna catch it the lodge is a higher inflection point.

In the case of Killington at least, there are ~20 other lifts to ride if one is uncomfortable.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2020)

drjeff said:


> *While BG I do respect your opinions on most things, gotta call BS on this. As someone who works within 2 feet of numerous people who have who knows what, while generating an intense areosol spray within that 2 feet for about a quarter century now, with hardly ever a communic able disease ever caught, proper mask wearing and personal hygiene is a combo that works. *



So while you're skiing you wear a full medical face shield with an N95 or N100 mask?  

I guess drjeff will be easy to pick out on the slopes.

On a serious note, I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying here.  You DONT think a gondy is a COVID19 risk?  Am I reading that correctly?


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> *Covid can be aerosolized but I think all things considered if you're gonna catch it the lodge *is a higher inflection point.



I doubt it very much.  For starters, we already know lodges will be run at minimum capacity.  But even ignoring that fact, the only part of your reasoning which makes sense to me is the fact that there are far more potential "victims" in the lodge with more opportunity for interaction.  But that's not what I'm getting at, I'm talking about a very specific interaction where your risk is exceptionally high.


Yes, there are far more people in a crowded lodge who potentially could come in contact with some viral particulate than in any single gondy car, but anyone in a teeny gondola car with a COVID19 positive person is 100% going to be exposed to a very high dose of active virus immediately expelled from the vector (i.e. every floating virus particle is still "alive").  *Viral load is a major factor in actually getting sick. * Let's say there are 6 people in a gondy car, and 1 person is COVID19 positive, and it's a typical 10 minute ride.  My guess is at least 3 of the 5 other people would contract COVID19.  There's no way to know for sure without running studies, but there are enough global documented close quarter infection rate cases to know it's going to be a very high percentage, and there's no global documented close quarter infection study that I'm aware of as small as a gondola car.  It cannot be overstated just how insanely infectious this virus is.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 1, 2020)

Lastly, this brings us to IMO the biggest misnomer people seem to have regarding this subject, which is this belief that as long as you're not in the same car as the COVID19+ person, you're okay.  That you can jump in a gondy car that HAD a COVID19+ person in it 10 minutes ago, but since they're "long" gone you're going to be fine.    

I call total BS on that given the known aerosolized 1/2-life of the virus.   So do as you all will this season, but I will sure as hell not be riding in any gondy ever again until 3 weeks post my vaccination.   And this is coming from a guy who believes COVID19 risk is way overblown by the media & the general public at large, and yet I still wont be ******* with or testing my luck in gondys.  The scientific evidence is just too overwhelming.


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## mbedle (Aug 1, 2020)

skiur said:


> It isn't illegal to drink on the street in VT.  NY it is, I don't know about NH or ME.



Damn - that's good to know.... Hopefully Vail will loosen their no open container rules. lol


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## JimG. (Aug 1, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> In the case of Killington at least, there are ~20 other lifts to ride if one is uncomfortable.



This is the main point. I rarely use the gondola and just won't at all this coming season. 

I only use the gondi to get to the summit lodge for lunch. So I'll just skip getting lunch there this season and bring lunch to eat in my car.


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## prsboogie (Aug 1, 2020)

There is a major point everyone seems to be missing. The 20-30 somethings are going to screw up whatever plan b is put in place. They refuse to follow rules that are already in place and guaranteed they will do the same come ski season.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## drjeff (Aug 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> So while you're skiing you wear a full medical face shield with an N95 or N100 mask?
> 
> I guess drjeff will be easy to pick out on the slopes.
> 
> On a serious note, I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying here.  You DONT think a gondy is a COVID19 risk?  Am I reading that correctly?


For perspective BG, the CDC has changed its guidance for what I do for a living, with respect to a few key items involved in this conversation, that gives some relevance which I think can be hypothesized currently into what ski area ops may look like this winter, if things don't drastically get worse.

#1 - even in the "high risk" environment that I work in, with aerosols being generated directly into and out of the oral cavity, and in close proximity to the oral cavity, no longer is the guidance that myself or my staff has to wear an N95 or higher mask. I am wearing a regular surgical mask while working just like I wear when I go into a store to get groceries or something similar.

#2 The CDC about 3 weeks ago, changed its guidance for room disinfection after aerosol generating procedures. It had been to disinfectant all surfaces and then leave undisturbed for 15 minutes before bringing the next patient in, now it is just like it was all along pre COVID-19, which is disinfect all surfaces and then you are immediately free to bring the next patient into the room if you want to. 

As science learns more and more about the nuisances of COVID-19 it seems to be showing that it can be effectively prevented transmission wise with simpler face coverings than originally thought, and out on exposed surfaces, it is easier to neutralize than originally speculated.

Now if it is able to populate ones oral cavity and throat past a certain quantity (which seems to vary greatly depending on a slew of factors from age, concentrated exposure time, underlying co-morbidities, etc) then that can be a serious issue for some, but certainly not all.

Would I want to be riding in a gondola or bubble chair with someone showing multiple symptoms? Nope. Would I feel comfortable riding a gondola or bubble chair while wearing a mask and someone who isn't showing any symptoms, even if they happen to be COVID-19 positive? Probably. Since the reality is while to my knowledge I haven't worked on anyone as of yet who was confirmed to be COVID-19 positive, the reality is that I more than likely have, and as of about 10 days ago, I am still testing negative for COVID-19.

I fully get that this disease process does scare many people. And that's OK, and for some, very appropriate. My own personal experiences in a high risk environment for communicable disease transmission for the past 25yrs has taught me to trust the precautions and continually practice them and that the risk to myself if I follow those things is very low. Life isn't a zero risk thing, and everyone has their own comfort levels with various risks that we encounter every day. 

If the data shows that even if I do contract COVID-19 that there is roughly a 99% chance that I will recover, that's a risk I am comfortable with. That's just my own feeling, and I fully understand that others have their own, different feelings as well

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Aug 1, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> There is a major point everyone seems to be missing. The 20-30 somethings are going to screw up whatever plan b is put in place. They refuse to follow rules that are already in place and guaranteed they will do the same come ski season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I am just waiting for something akin to any bar that can still be open will restrict entrance to just those 40 and over!! Lol!!

Not that that would stop the seemingly significant spikes around the country in the 20 somethings right now, just shift where the infections happen

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## Smellytele (Aug 1, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> There is a major point everyone seems to be missing. The 20-30 somethings are going to screw up whatever plan b is put in place. They refuse to follow rules that are already in place and guaranteed they will do the same come ski season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



while it does seen the 20-30 yo's are causing issues, I notice a lot of older people refusing to use face masks - around my town it seems to be the very right leaning people. I am not a Republican nor a democrat I am more libertarian (left socially but right fiscally - do what you want as long as it doesn't effect me physically or financially).


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Would I want to be riding in a gondola or bubble chair with someone showing multiple symptoms? Nope. Would I feel comfortable riding a gondola or bubble chair while wearing a mask and someone who isn't showing any symptoms, even if they happen to be COVID-19 positive? Probably. Since the reality is while to my knowledge I haven't worked on anyone as of yet who was confirmed to be COVID-19 positive, the reality is that I more than likely have, and as of about 10 days ago, I am still testing negative for COVID-19.



You made a lots of points that I agree with, mostly regarding the likely efficacy of mask use.  Still, the conversation is solely regarding gondolas for skiing, and I'm just not seeing how what you're saying makes sense for the general public.  Or why you scientifically think people wont get COVID19 from riding in a contaminated gondy car, which you didnt address.

People arent going to be wearing an N95, N100, or even the loose-fitting, common, surgical masks that you're talking about while riding in a gondola.  From the above, it's great that YOU personally apparently plan on doing so, but that's pretty much irrelevant regarding this subject given I doubt many others will.

The other thing I'd disagree with you empirically about, which is statistically pretty easy to prove, is that's it is highly unlikely that you have (at this point) worked on a COVID19+ patient (less than a 1 in 75 chance for your geography as of yesterday).  And likely far less than that given people who know they're sick today dont show up at the dentist (e.g. that 1 in 75 figure is biased towards the low end).  Even adjusting downward for the much (hysterically) talked about asymptomatic carriers (e.g. which would bump that 1 in 75 figure towards a higher end) who may not know they're COVID19+ it's relatively low odds.


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## Not Sure (Aug 2, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> while it does seen the 20-30 yo's are causing issues, I notice a lot of older people refusing to use face masks - around my town it seems to be the very right leaning people. I am not a Republican nor a democrat I am more libertarian (left socially but right fiscally - do what you want as long as it doesn't effect me physically or financially).



There seems to be some people struggling with the warm temps and wearing a mask, I get that but for some others it's turning into a freedom of choice thing , I get that too .

There's a mistrust in the people who are leaders . After all Fauci some time ago said not to wear a mask . Lots of Virus fatigue causing people to let there guard down . It's important to wear one yes but recently people who weren't wearing masks have been assaulted in public . That's way over the line . 

 When doctors trying to discuss medicine are censored by a "public" forums comparisons are made to "Digitally burning books " ...Fuel for those who are distrustful to begin with .


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## Newpylong (Aug 2, 2020)

Eh, anyone who refuses to wear one (given the empirical evidence that we ALL will be safer if we just suck it up and do it) should be made an example of. I wouldn't assault anyone but if I see someone in the store not wearing one (when the business requests that all customers wear them), I speak up. I am about as freedom loving and libertarian as the next guy but enough is enough, people need to stop with the "it's my right" BS. If you want to make it your right go buy an island or live in a cave, otherwise suck it up and it will all be over hopefully soon and meanwhile the most susceptible of our population will be more protected. No one has a right to make others sick.


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## prsboogie (Aug 2, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> There's a mistrust in the people who are leaders . After all Fauci some time ago said not to wear a mask . Lots of Virus fatigue causing people to let there guard down . It's important to wear one yes but recently people who weren't wearing masks have been assaulted in public . That's way over the line .



Fauci did in the very beginning say not to wear masks, mainly to keep masks in clinical settings where people treating patients with Covid needed them. They also didn't (and still don't) fully understand how and why this thing spreads and effects people. 

As far as people being assaulted, how about those non mask wearing individuals who bludgeoned a target worker because he asked someone to put on a mask? Who cares if its hot, you have to wear a mask. If you walk into a store without a shirt or shoes they tell you to leave, well now you need a mask too. Get over it. Take it off when you walk outside. 

Another piece of info, this shit about having medical conditions and not wearing masks is about as idiotic as an statement ever made. I you have a condition where you have "difficulty" breathing with a mask, you are exactly the person who needs to wear one. You would be someone at highest risk of dying from Covid. I have asthma and have to wear a mask 8-10 hours a day 5 days a week and while I don't like it, its much better to the alternative. 


Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## VTKilarney (Aug 2, 2020)

The same people who refuse to wear masks are probably the same people who claim that their yappy little chihuahua is an emotional support animal.


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## EPB (Aug 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> If the data shows that even if I do contract COVID-19 that there is roughly a 99% chance that I will recover, that's a risk I am comfortable with. That's just my own feeling, and I fully understand that others have their own, different feelings as well



All this was super helpful - thanks for sharing. 

My parents are both retired MDs, and my dad (who happens to like talking about this more) was saying this last piece in March when he told me something to the effect of, "I wouldn't be super worried unless I'm in a nursing home because almost everyone else who gets it will recover" 

Hence why I'm so hung up on how our NYC-area leaders haven't been absolutely raked over the coals for sending COVID-positive patients back into nursing homes while thousands of extra hospital beds they requested sat idle. It sounds like if they were taking advice from medical professionals with half a clue, they would have known better than to do this.


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## EPB (Aug 2, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Fauci did in the very beginning say not to wear masks, mainly to keep masks in clinical settings where people treating patients with Covid needed them.



Just out of curiosity, did they ever cop to this, or is this just something people have gotten in the habit of telling themselves to make it seem like the epidemiologists/government knew/knows more about this virus than they actually do?

On a personal note, stay safe - I have a close friend and family member with asthma, and I definitely spend time concerned about how vulnerable they are.


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## JimG. (Aug 2, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Fauci did in the very beginning say not to wear masks, mainly to keep masks in clinical settings where people treating patients with Covid needed them. They also didn't (and still don't) fully understand how and why this thing spreads and effects people.
> 
> As far as people being assaulted, how about those non mask wearing individuals who bludgeoned a target worker because he asked someone to put on a mask? Who cares if its hot, you have to wear a mask. If you walk into a store without a shirt or shoes they tell you to leave, well now you need a mask too. Get over it. Take it off when you walk outside.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. Wear a mask!

I don't like it either. But I've spent the last 4 months trying to follow the medical professionals' advice, staying mostly at home. When I do go outside it's to engage in a solitary activity, fishing mostly during that time. And it pisses me off that I've followed the rules but others can't and the country is still locked down in many ways. Mostly because people are too selfish or too stupid to behave with the common good in mind. I don't care what anyone perceives their "rights" are. You don't have the right to make me or others sick.


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## slatham (Aug 2, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> There is a major point everyone seems to be missing. The 20-30 somethings are going to screw up whatever plan b is put in place. They refuse to follow rules that are already in place and guaranteed they will do the same come ski season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



I have to agree, they could, but the big question is the level of enforcement at ski areas. I could see (and hope) some being pretty strict - a warning or two then pull the ticket (or mark the pass). After a couple of infractions, a full-on ban, either for a period of time or the season. If ski area's use reservation systems this will be easy to enforce. In my mind skiing is the ultimate privilege, operated by a private business, so if people don't play by the rules, that business has the right to revoke that privilege. Non-mask wearing idiots are not a protected class under the law.


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## JimG. (Aug 2, 2020)

slatham said:


> I have to agree, they could, but the big question is the level of enforcement at ski areas. I could see (and hope) some being pretty strict - a warning or two then pull the ticket (or mark the pass). After a couple of infractions, a full-on ban, either for a period of time or the season. If ski area's use reservation systems this will be easy to enforce. In my mind skiing is the ultimate privilege, operated by a private business, so if people don't play by the rules, that business has the right to revoke that privilege. Non-mask wearing idiots are not a protected class under the law.



Yes!

And for those who feel there's no way to enforce rules about crossing state lines, remember you are going to a ski area and in most cases will have to drive up a solitary access road to get there. Nothing could be easier than for a state cop or two to park at the entrance and pull over out of state plates to check quarantine compliance. If you are from out of state you are nothing but a sitting duck.


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## icecoast1 (Aug 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Yes!
> 
> And for those who feel there's no way to enforce rules about crossing state lines, remember you are going to a ski area and in most cases will have to drive up a solitary access road to get there. Nothing could be easier than for a state cop or two to park at the entrance and pull over out of state plates to check quarantine compliance. If you are from out of state you are nothing but a sitting duck.



They wouldn't even have to pull them over.  They just scan your plate now and know exactly who you are.   The only issue though is how do they know if they have isolated for two weeks, unless this is done in tandom with checks of people coming across the border, and theres no way VT has the resources to do that


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## Not Sure (Aug 2, 2020)

prsboogie said:


> Fauci did in the very beginning say not to wear masks, mainly to keep masks in clinical settings where people treating patients with Covid needed them. They also didn't (and still don't) fully understand how and why this thing spreads and effects people.
> 
> As far as people being assaulted, how about those non mask wearing individuals who bludgeoned a target worker because he asked someone to put on a mask? Who cares if its hot, you have to wear a mask. If you walk into a store without a shirt or shoes they tell you to leave, well now you need a mask too. Get over it. Take it off when you walk outside.
> 
> ...



Seems pretty simple . No shirt,shoes,mask "No Service" . Assaulting someone because of an entitlement attitude needs to be cured with some time in jail.

Got to thinking about N95 masks as I wear them a lot . Does trapping your breath and re breathing it have long term health affects? I have an 02 analyzer ( Recently calibrated ) I put on a mask and put the probe underneath and checked 02 level . I was surprised it dropped to 17.5% pretty significant drop !  I was not doing any kind of strenuous activity .  Wearing a mask in conditioned space is one thing but 95F 60% humidity is not . 

" I you have a condition where you have "difficulty" breathing with a mask, you are exactly the person who needs to wear one" 
Exactly! you shouldn't be out in public .

https://preview.redd.it/8r9188v2twc11.gif?format=mp4&b8291374


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## mbedle (Aug 2, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Seems pretty simple . No shirt,shoes,mask "No Service" . Assaulting someone because of an entitlement attitude needs to be cured with some time in jail.
> 
> Got to thinking about N95 masks as I wear them a lot . Does trapping your breath and re breathing it have long term health affects? I have an 02 analyzer ( Recently calibrated ) I put on a mask and put the probe underneath and checked 02 level . I was surprised it dropped to 17.5% pretty significant drop !  I was not doing any kind of strenuous activity .  Wearing a mask in conditioned space is one thing but 95F 60% humidity is not .
> 
> ...



The O2 level beneath your mask does not equate to your blood's O2 level. We do not consume all of the O2 present in each volume of air we breath. Hence the reason we can perform MTM resuscitation.


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## Dickc (Aug 2, 2020)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/02/health/gupta-coronavirus-t-cell-cross-reactivity-immunity-wellness/index.html

I know some might not read as its CNN, but its really interesting article on many of the unknowns.

The following kind of stood out to me:

"For herd immunity, if indeed we have a very large proportion of the population already being immune in one way or another, through these cellular responses, they can count towards the pool that you need to establish herd immunity. If you have 50% already in a way immune, because of these existing immune responses, then you don't need 60 to 80%, you need 10 to 30% -- you have covered the 50% already. The implications of having some pre-existing immunity suggests that maybe you need a small proportion of the population to be impacted before the epidemic wave dies out," said Dr. John Ioannidis, a professor of medicine and epidemiology and population health at Stanford University.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Seems pretty simple . No shirt,shoes,mask "No Service" . Assaulting someone because of an entitlement attitude needs to be cured with some time in jail.
> 
> Got to thinking about N95 masks as I wear them a lot . Does trapping your breath and re breathing it have long term health affects? I have an 02 analyzer ( Recently calibrated ) I put on a mask and put the probe underneath and checked 02 level . I was surprised it dropped to 17.5% pretty significant drop !  I was not doing any kind of strenuous activity .  Wearing a mask in conditioned space is one thing but 95F 60% humidity is not .
> 
> ...


I sell critical care patient monitors; all of which have SPO2 sensors.  Even wearing a N95 mask for hours, your drop in SPO2 might be 1-2%.  Completely insignificant

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Hence why I'm so hung up on how our NYC-area leaders haven't been absolutely raked over the coals for sending COVID-positive patients back into nursing homes while thousands of extra hospital beds they requested sat idle.



They're in the same club, which shields them from serious media criticism.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 2, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> They wouldn't even have to pull them over.  They just scan your plate now and know exactly who you are.   The only issue though is how do they know if they have isolated for two weeks, unless this is done in tandom with checks of people coming across the border, and theres no way VT has the resources to do that



I think you're assuming that every out of state skier who was singled out would automatically lie and say they did isolate for 2 weeks. Many would not.

I base this on an experience I had in April after NY locked down. I took my son to Utica on a college visit to SUNY Poly; it was the only college campus he had not yet visited. We were just there to drive around and look. When we got there 2 state troopers were pulling over all out of state plates at the entrance. We got waved through. Must have been 7 or 8 out of state plates pulled over. A few were talking with the troopers. We looked around for about 20 minutes and headed back out. None of those cars ever entered the campus and all were gone when we left. 

So sure, a few hard asses will debate and argue with the cops or just lie and say they complied. A few of them will get to ski. But the majority of people who get questioned will admit they are not compliant. And home they will go.


----------



## prsboogie (Aug 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I sell critical care patient monitors; all of which have SPO2 sensors.  Even wearing a N95 mask for hours, your drop in SPO2 might be 1-2%.  Completely insignificant
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


This^^^

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## Pez (Aug 3, 2020)

What about about my rights to go to the grocery store for food and not get a disease that could impact my health for years to come?

I never realized how selfish Americans have become until now.


----------



## jimk (Aug 3, 2020)

drjeff said:


> For perspective BG, the CDC has changed its guidance for what I do for a living, with respect to a few key items involved in this conversation, that gives some relevance which I think can be hypothesized currently into what ski area ops may look like this winter, if things don't drastically get worse.
> 
> #1 - even in the "high risk" environment that I work in, with aerosols being generated directly into and out of the oral cavity, and in close proximity to the oral cavity, no longer is the guidance that myself or my staff has to wear an N95 or higher mask. I am wearing a regular surgical mask while working just like I wear when I go into a store to get groceries or something similar.
> 
> ...



You sir have my complete respect.  Health care and medical professionals are everyone's hope and heroes these days.


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## mister moose (Aug 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I sell critical care patient monitors; all of which have SPO2 sensors.  Even wearing a N95 mask for hours, your drop in SPO2 might be 1-2%.  Completely insignificant


You mean while lying in a hospital bed, right?  What about when the pulse rate is 120 or 130 and breathing is 4-6 times as rapid and added to the thinner air at elevation?


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2020)

mister moose said:


> You mean while lying in a hospital bed, right?  What about when the pulse rate is 120 or 130 and breathing is 4-6 times as rapid and added to the thinner air at elevation?


You can look up specific studies for those conditions if you like.  I'm sure there's been one.

First hit on Google is this one.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3VodkO3vPcUMgSjelZSQcR

Under moderate exertion, the drop-in SPO2 while wearing a N95 is even less than what I had stated. 


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2020)

Snowbird's Oktoberfest is cancelled this year due to COVID-19.  No surprise:

https://www.fox13now.com/news/coron...h5_kSM_EU73VqC5kECgs_1h6k24z0gkfY74sGfxDtxggw


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 3, 2020)

Pez said:


> What about about my rights to go to the grocery store for food and not get a disease that could impact my health for years to come?
> 
> I never realized how selfish Americans have become until now.



I just hope the individuals making the headlines are a fraction of the population. The greatest generation would otherwise be rolling in their graves.


----------



## machski (Aug 3, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I think you're assuming that every out of state skier who was singled out would automatically lie and say they did isolate for 2 weeks. Many would not.
> 
> I base this on an experience I had in April after NY locked down. I took my son to Utica on a college visit to SUNY Poly; it was the only college campus he had not yet visited. We were just there to drive around and look. When we got there 2 state troopers were pulling over all out of state plates at the entrance. We got waved through. Must have been 7 or 8 out of state plates pulled over. A few were talking with the troopers. We looked around for about 20 minutes and headed back out. None of those cars ever entered the campus and all were gone when we left.
> 
> So sure, a few hard asses will debate and argue with the cops or just lie and say they complied. A few of them will get to ski. But the majority of people who get questioned will admit they are not compliant. And home they will go.


This is a slippery slope, you know interstate commerce laws and all.  Can't just pull over other state liscense plates just "because."  That is illegal, period, and would surely open the state to legal challenges.  Remember RI threatened to do that to NY and NJ plates early on, Cuomo said he would take RI to court to protect his citizens rights.  RI backed down real fast.

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## EPB (Aug 3, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I just hope the individuals making the headlines are a fraction of the population.



It's very likely that they are. Any time you see a crazy anecdote, remember that it was curated by an entertainment company to rile the audience up because it knows that teaching the audience to harbor resentment for the "other" tribe is ultimately good for business. It's one of the cheapest and most dangerous tricks in the book (all sides are guilty of this BTW). Anecdotes tell us about the particular example at hand, but the "news" curator wants to fool the audience into thinking they can make inferences beyond the anecdotes they see. The anecdote is a cheap mind trick that plays with our learning process.

Regarding skiing, I really hope that much of the population has T cell immunity and we don't need 50-70%+ of the population or a vaccine to get back to normalcy. Maybe it's just because it's the middle of the summer and not much progress seems to have been made since March, but I'm becoming less optimistic as I see season pass curtailments, etc.


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## slatham (Aug 3, 2020)

machski said:


> This is a slippery slope, you know interstate commerce laws and all.  Can't just pull over other state liscense plates just "because."  That is illegal, period, and would surely open the state to legal challenges.  Remember RI threatened to do that to NY and NJ plates early on, Cuomo said he would take RI to court to protect his citizens rights.  RI backed down real fast.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Actually, the issue with RI's initial rule was it focused ONLY on NY State. They then (quickly) changed it to anyone out of state. Not sure, but they may have also backed off pulling over cars at the state line. But like many States, they have rules/laws pertaining to out of state visitors entering their state.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 3, 2020)

Regarding skiing, I really hope that much of the population has T cell immunity and we don't need 50-70%+ of the population or a vaccine to get back to normalcy. Maybe it's just because it's the middle of the summer and not much progress seems to have been made since March, but I'm becoming less optimistic as I see season pass curtailments, "

I believe it terrible virus
I think actual was created or messed with in lab and accidentally got out
Seems to much stuff about it as virus go never had this effects on everything like this
Summer heat did nothing to its
And crazy how if effect different ly
As far as mistake illness virus go I kinda believes that probably came from anooloer world powers
By accident
All our government people in charge on both parties mess up a lot in telling the citz ens truth
So in January- March they all should been working on everything they only started many 2eeks later
And I sure lots are allies in Europe and world wide where telling our whola government what they could had expected and ramp up what we needed as country ass it supposed to protect the citizens
I giuues when I think about being screwed by the U.S. government both political parties bascccily same corrupt money hungry corporate and care about$$$$ and nothing else
Sorry for the rant. I loss few extended family due the virus
So have symthogy for any 1 effect by it to
.


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## icecoast1 (Aug 3, 2020)

slatham said:


> Actually, the issue with RI's initial rule was it focused ONLY on NY State. They then (quickly) changed it to anyone out of state. Not sure, but they may have also backed off pulling over cars at the state line. But like many States, they have rules/laws pertaining to out of state visitors entering their state.




That's because at the time, New York (mainly NYC) was the worst hotspot in the nation, NY is literally doing the same thing now, that they threatened to sue for in the past.


----------



## prsboogie (Aug 3, 2020)

mister moose said:


> You mean while lying in a hospital bed, right?  What about when the pulse rate is 120 or 130 and breathing is 4-6 times as rapid and added to the thinner air at elevation?


Are you within 6 feet of someone else? If not take your mask off because your socially distanced.

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## JimG. (Aug 3, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> That's because at the time, New York (mainly NYC) was the worst hotspot in the nation, NY is literally doing the same thing now, that they threatened to sue for in the past.



Had to take my son to the local urgent care for a COVID test for him to go to college. In front of us was a guy who had just returned from RI from a business trip whose employer told him he needed to get a test to return to work. When the nurse informed him that he needed to immediately go home and quarantine for the next 2 weeks I thought he would hit the ceiling. I guess the employer didn't tell him that would be the case.

Most people have no clue about restrictions or rules and don't care until something like that happens. Ignorance and selfishness abound!


----------



## JimG. (Aug 3, 2020)

slatham said:


> Actually, the issue with RI's initial rule was it focused ONLY on NY State. They then (quickly) changed it to anyone out of state. Not sure, but they may have also backed off pulling over cars at the state line. But like many States, they have rules/laws pertaining to out of state visitors entering their state.



I hear that RI has been quite rigorous in enforcing their restrictions.


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## prsboogie (Aug 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Had to take my son to the local urgent care for a COVID test for him to go to college. In front of us was a guy who had just returned from RI from a business trip whose employer told him he needed to get a test to return to work. When the nurse informed him that he needed to immediately go home and quarantine for the next 2 weeks I thought he would hit the ceiling. I guess the employer didn't tell him that would be the case.
> 
> Most people have no clue about restrictions or rules and don't care until something like that happens. Ignorance and selfishness abound!


Well she gave him bad info unless he was positive.  In which case he likely had covid before his trip and was asymptomatic.  RI has some of the lowest numbers in the country per capita and Gina w as s all over them hard.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 4, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I just hope the individuals making the headlines are a fraction of the population. The greatest generation would otherwise be rolling in their graves.


It's a regional thing.  I've been splitting time for work between Boston, central VT and Northern Maine lately. 

Boston the mask wearing percentage is like 99.9999% both indoors and out.  Joggers, bikers etc all wearing masks within the city limits.  Basically the only time you see people not wearing them is while eating.

VT I'd put the percentage at 95%, though typically only indoors. 

Maine?  Outside of along the coast and other tourist areas, the percentage is 50% at best with little regard for social distancing

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## cdskier (Aug 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Had to take my son to the local urgent care for a COVID test for him to go to college. In front of us was a guy who had just returned from RI from a business trip whose employer told him he needed to get a test to return to work. When the nurse informed him that he needed to immediately go home and quarantine for the next 2 weeks I thought he would hit the ceiling. I guess the employer didn't tell him that would be the case.
> 
> Most people have no clue about restrictions or rules and don't care until something like that happens. Ignorance and selfishness abound!



I'm not quite sure I understand why she told him that. RI isn't on NY's list of restricted states.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2020)

Aspen is struggling with what to do if there is a ski season.   I don't know how you limit access without pissing off people....

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020...3U79ijejROPF1DtggmOb2T9VSwN_XbZksjzoTxw7Q28kM


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## EPB (Aug 4, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Aspen is struggling with what to do if there is a ski season.   I don't know how you limit access without pissing off people....
> 
> https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020...3U79ijejROPF1DtggmOb2T9VSwN_XbZksjzoTxw7Q28kM



I'm expecting to think (or say), "What did you expect?", "If you don't like X policy/decision, then what would you suggest?" etc. A LOT this winter. A little understanding would go a long way, but I fear a vocal minority will be insufferable on this board come ski season. 

Hopefully, I'm wrong.


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## Edd (Aug 4, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm expecting to think (or say), "What did you expect?", "If you don't like X policy/decision, then what would you suggest?" etc. A LOT this winter. A little understanding would go a long way, but I fear a vocal minority will be insufferable on this board come ski season.
> 
> Hopefully, I'm wrong.



Emphasis on “minority”, I’d think. Members here will be vastly more understanding than the masses.


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## EPB (Aug 4, 2020)

Edd said:


> Emphasis on “minority”, I’d think. Members here will be vastly more understanding than the masses.



Agreed - I expect you'll be sitting pretty skiing midweek. I think this year, I might be able to convince the wife to duck out midweek a few more times than normal myself. We'll see.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2020)

Edd said:


> Emphasis on “minority”, I’d think. Members here will be vastly more understanding than the masses.



Exactly.  Most of the regulars, like me, are understanding....to a point.  

I think that Jackson Hole and Aspen are a couple places where the sense of entitlement will be in full force.  

And I certainly am glad that I am not the person making the decision.  It will be hard to balance out passholders vs. folks who pay a lot to visit for a weekend.  How do you balance it out?  The only thing going for Aspen is that they have four areas to spread out folks.  But I imagine some locals will still be pissed.


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## dlague (Aug 4, 2020)

colorado-ski-industry-leaders-offer-hints-of-what-winter-during-covid-19-could-look-like


https://www.outtherecolorado.com/ne...html?utm_source=OneSignalPush&utm_medium=push


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 4, 2020)

I have to think this is all going to put a hurting on the casual walk-up crowd & the "goes skiing twice a year crowd" (some combo of Christmas, MLK, PDW), which resorts make a bundle from.  

Many of those, "I could take it or leave it" skiers & snowboarders I think may just skip this season entirely rather than be burdened with all the rules & annoyances.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 4, 2020)

dlague said:


> colorado-ski-industry-leaders-offer-hints-of-what-winter-during-covid-19-could-look-like
> 
> 
> https://www.outtherecolorado.com/ne...html?utm_source=OneSignalPush&utm_medium=push



So basically no parties and large crowds and "something" regarding loading lifts, but it remains to be seen what "it" is.....


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## Edd (Aug 4, 2020)

I just heard that the Epic Pass is only taking deposits, not selling passes. I was holding off buying for another week. Can anyone confirm? I just tried to do the pass buying process online and got an error message that said to phone in. Doesn’t look good. 

Edit: Appears to be a false alarm? I called after the website gave an error message when attempting to purchase a pass. The woman I spoke to knew nothing about limiting sales. I put a deposit on an Epic Veteran Pass but there was an option to purchase in full. 

Her info about using a coupon from cutting the season short from last year was waaaay more than what I had. Seems like things are a bit disorganized over there. If I’m to believe her, I’m paying maybe $320 for this pass (regular price $559), but that sounds very weird.


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## bizarrefaith (Aug 4, 2020)

I'm still waiting to see someone address lessons and seasonal junior programs. If the seasonal programs aren't running, it probably isn't worth it for my family, regardless of if the mountain is open because my kids are different ages and very different levels of experience, so without the programs where they can both ski with peers at their own age and levels, we'd probably stick to much fewer day trips rather than season passes and seasonal rental.


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## catskillman (Aug 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Had to take my son to the local urgent care for a COVID test for him to go to college. In front of us was a guy who had just returned from RI from a business trip whose employer told him he needed to get a test to return to work. When the nurse informed him that he needed to immediately go home and quarantine for the next 2 weeks I thought he would hit the ceiling. I guess the employer didn't tell him that would be the case.
> 
> Most people have no clue about restrictions or rules and don't care until something like that happens. Ignorance and selfishness abound!



did he opt for this school?  You do not need to answer, I am curious as I am very familiar with this school - 30 + years ago....


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## kbroderick (Aug 5, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> I'm still waiting to see someone address lessons and seasonal junior programs. If the seasonal programs aren't running, it probably isn't worth it for my family, regardless of if the mountain is open because my kids are different ages and very different levels of experience, so without the programs where they can both ski with peers at their own age and levels, we'd probably stick to much fewer day trips rather than season passes and seasonal rental.



I have no direct insight into lessons or seasonal ski school programs, but I know of several race programs that are working on operational plans that allow for training while maintaining necessary anti-Covid measures, and I'd assume most are. It may be worth reaching out to the mountain in question directly, although I wouldn't expect a definitive answer quickly.


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## bizarrefaith (Aug 5, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> I have no direct insight into lessons or seasonal ski school programs, but I know of several race programs that are working on operational plans that allow for training while maintaining necessary anti-Covid measures, and I'd assume most are. It may be worth reaching out to the mountain in question directly, although I wouldn't expect a definitive answer quickly.



I think it's still really too early to have any answers, just curious how mountains are looking at it if they are and none of these high level interviews or statements have even really mentioned them so I'm just sort of thinking out loud as my kids mention it at least once per week. 

The kids only go inside a 2-3 times a day for lunch and warm up breaks on very cold days, and the ski school has its own separate building that already had limited access so I'm hoping they can make it work, but if mountains are limiting capacity, that might interfere with it and liability concerns could also kill the programs. 

My kids have been in summer (day) camp and they have done a good job enforcing masks and social distancing, requiring daily health checks, and more in depth pre-camp screenings for new campers but will mountains be willing or able to do that? A week of camp costs a lot more than a seasonal program, and the kids are there every day rather than kids just coming in on weekends...


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> I'm still waiting to see someone address lessons and seasonal junior programs. If the seasonal programs aren't running, it probably isn't worth it for my family, regardless of if the mountain is open because my kids are different ages and very different levels of experience, so without the programs where they can both ski with peers at their own age and levels, we'd probably stick to much fewer day trips rather than season passes and seasonal rental.



Good question.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand why she told him that. RI isn't on NY's list of restricted states.



My bad...Delaware was the state in question, not RI.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 5, 2020)

catskillman said:


> did he opt for this school?  You do not need to answer, I am curious as I am very familiar with this school - 30 + years ago....



Don't remember if I mentioned where James is going but it's Alfred University in Alfred NY and it is his first choice among the colleges he applied to.


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## cdskier (Aug 5, 2020)

JimG. said:


> My bad...Delaware was the state in question, not RI.



Ahhh...that makes a lot more sense and shouldn't have been a surprise to him.


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## JimG. (Aug 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Ahhh...that makes a lot more sense and shouldn't have been a surprise to him.



His surprised reaction really amazed me...he had no idea there were restrictions regarding leaving NY and then returning. He had no idea Delaware was on the restriction list. Maybe I'm just unusually tuned into this topic because of skiing and making season pass arrangements but the general cluelessness of the general public once again astounds me.


----------



## catskillman (Aug 5, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Don't remember if I mentioned where James is going but it's Alfred University in Alfred NY and it is his first choice among the colleges he applied to.




Wise choice between the 2 !


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2020)

JimG. said:


> His surprised reaction really amazed me...he had no idea there were restrictions regarding leaving NY and then returning. He had no idea Delaware was on the restriction list. Maybe I'm just unusually tuned into this topic because of skiing and making season pass arrangements but the general cluelessness of the general public once again astounds me.



I haven't really been thinking about it too much from a skiing perspective (for me the only state that matters is what VT says). Yet I still knew about the restrictions in NY (and NJ which is using the same list). It has been a pretty big news topic, so I don't really know how people aren't aware (and I'm not someone that even pays that much attention to the news). Then again, nothing really surprises me anymore.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I haven't really been thinking about it too much from a skiing perspective (for me the only state that matters is what VT says). Yet I still knew about the restrictions in NY (and NJ which is using the same list). It has been a pretty big news topic, so I don't really know how people aren't aware (and I'm not someone that even pays that much attention to the news). Then again, nothing really surprises me anymore.



The more access to info people get the more clueless they seem. Counterintuitive but apparently true.

I very well may defer my K midweek pass to 21-22 and buy the NYS 3 in 1 and a Platty pass. It looks more and more like my best option as time goes on. 

Deadline for best price 3 in 1 9/2. Platty best price deadline 10/15 which is quite generous.


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## JimG. (Aug 5, 2020)

catskillman said:


> Wise choice between the 2 !



It is a beautiful place. And a good school.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 7, 2020)

Jackson Hole is planning on opening....even its Tram....for the winter:

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/this...cle_7067f3dd-b59b-5120-b129-ed1c33a914e4.html


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## VTKilarney (Aug 7, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Jackson Hole is planning on opening....even its Tram....for the winter:
> 
> https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/this...cle_7067f3dd-b59b-5120-b129-ed1c33a914e4.html


Sorry, but that’s reckless.


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## JimG. (Aug 7, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Sorry, but that’s reckless.



Sadly there seem to be two options when people react to the pandemic.

Unreasonably fearful or reckless.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 7, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Sorry, but that’s reckless.


Schools are opening in NY.

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## JimG. (Aug 7, 2020)

I don't think that's reckless but what is reckless is opening schools without a real plan. I think NYC is probably guilty of that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 8, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I don't think that's reckless but what is reckless is opening schools without a real plan. I think NYC is probably guilty of that.


That would be pretty much every school district in NH.  I haven't seen one with a well defined plan. 

Our district required we make a choice this past Monday.  Commit to in school or remote learning.  The commitment is to be for the entire academic year. We chose remote learning because the district has yet to release specifics of what the in school experience will be.  

I'm patient and respectful that the current situation must be really difficult to plan for. I'm angry we have been asked to make a choice without a clue what we are choosing.  Thankfully it's only Kindergarten for our son. Him making new friends and having fun is a far greater concern for us than the academics.

We are very fortunate to be fine on one income. My wife has been a stay at home mom since our son was born 5.5 years ago.  Also have a 21 month old daughter and we have no plans of my wife going back to work until our daughter is in Kindergarten. 

I can't imagine the stress on families that need two incomes and have kids in more advanced ages.  



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## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2020)

There is no reason to not reopen schools based upon science, but alas, _"science"_ failed to rule the day months ago.

  It is politics & fear, and especially the, _"politics of fear"_ that now rule the day.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> There is no reason to not reopen schools based upon science, but alas, _"science"_ failed to rule the day months ago.
> 
> It is politics & fear, and especially the, _"politics of fear"_ that now rule the day.


Tell that to my co-worker. Oh wait you can't. She died from Covid on Tuesday. 

Little hypocritical of you to beat the loudest drum of no gondolas, but packed school hallways?  NBD right?

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## VTKilarney (Aug 8, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Tell that to my co-worker. Oh wait you can't. She died from Covid on Tuesday.



Respectfully, I’m tired of these appeals to emotion (a logical fallacy).  Facts should drive policy, not anecdotes.  If you believe that schools should remain closed make an actual argument in support of that belief.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 8, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Respectfully, I’m tired of these appeals to emotion (a logical fallacy).  Facts should drive policy, not anecdotes.  If you believe that schools should remain closed make an actual argument in support of that belief.


You are missing my point entirely and respectfully I don't care if you are tired of appeals to emotion. Tell that to anyone who has lost a loved one to the disease. 

My point is we were asked to make a choice without knowing what we are choosing.  

A good friend is a teacher two towns over. Their plan (middle school) is that all students are to remain at the same desk in the same classroom all day, including lunch and the teachers will move between classrooms.  Sounds awfully boring. If my kid was in high school I might consider it as we don't have the time to relearn calculus, chemistry etc to teach it.  But anything lower level and we'd keep the kid home and take a stab at remote learning / home schooling.

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## icecoast1 (Aug 8, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Tell that to my co-worker. Oh wait you can't. She died from Covid on Tuesday.



If that's the logic and argument we're going to use, we should just all stay locked in bubbles forever.   Life has to go on.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 8, 2020)

Some schools in other states that have reopened have had to close down already because of cases (students and/or teachers). Just the evidence not a ruling. I don't have the answers nor do I claim to as others on here seem to have all the answers.


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## Pez (Aug 8, 2020)

off to school ya go ya little bastards!  try not to kill anyone


----------



## JimG. (Aug 8, 2020)

I'm sure glad my youngest graduated from high school this past spring. 

I sympathize with parents who have to deal with the total uncertainty of the current situation. It annoys me greatly that the people who are supposedly our leaders are totally clueless about what to do and more concerned with political games than actually leading.

I am in favor of firing our entire federal government and would also like to see the current NYS and NYC governments defunded.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 8, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Tell that to my co-worker. Oh wait you can't. She died from Covid on Tuesday.
> 
> Little hypocritical of you to beat the loudest drum of no gondolas, but packed school hallways?  NBD right?
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



He obviously has no kids and thus no clue what parents are going through dealing with this. Also the dilemma facing parents and educators going into the school year. I support my kids going back to school BUT our county is doing well and the decision is not black or white. Sadly I suspect many schools, especially higher learning, won't be in person for long before needing to revert to remote due to outbreaks.


----------



## Edd (Aug 8, 2020)

I, as a never-parent, truly sympathize with teachers and parents. These decisions are brutal and complex because you’re working with limited information. It’s likely a no-win situation. 

I just made the term “never-parent” up. It’s not catchy. I’ll work on it. 


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----------



## slatham (Aug 8, 2020)

Getting back on topic of what ski areas are doing....

https://magicmtn.com/alpine-update/


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 8, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Tell that to anyone who has lost a loved one to the diseases.



They have my sympathies but they don’t get to dictate policy.  Scientists and epidemiologists do.  You made a cheap argument and got called out on it.  That’s all.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Little hypocritical of you to beat the loudest drum of no gondolas, but packed school hallways?  NBD right?



No, it's not hypocritical at all, because they're completely dissimilar situations in myriad numerous ways, which should be obvious to you. 

Secondly, the hallways are not going to be "packed", as social distancing measures & spacing will be strictly enforced at every school.   

Science needs to rule the day here, not human emotion.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Secondly, the hallways are not going to be "packed", as social distancing measures & spacing will be strictly enforced at every school.



LOL! 

There have already been viral photos of this not being the case in schools down south that have reopened.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2020)

cdskier said:


> There have already been viral photos of this not being the case in schools down south that have reopened.



Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as it is really not the students who need the protecting.   

This honestly really shouldn't be terribly hard.  Something like as follows is entirely rational based on evidence-based medicine.

1) If a student lives in a home with a person >=60 (e.g. grandparent) that student gets home-schooled for the semester until 3 weeks post vaccination.

2) If a student lives in a home with anyone immunocompromised (any age), that student gets home-schooled for the semester until 3 weeks post vaccination.

3) If a student lives in a home with anyone with a comorbidity (any age), that student gets home-schooled for the semester until 3 weeks post vaccination.

4) Any teacher or teacher domiciling with a person falling into #1, #2, or #3 above stays home for the semester, and does not return until 3 weeks post vaccination.

5) All current, best practice, CDC recommended social distancing is followed.

6) Masks are worn in the classroom

You follow the above & probably 95% of kids and teachers could safely return to the classroom tomorrow.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> If that's the logic and argument we're going to use, we should just all stay locked in bubbles forever.
> * Life has to go on.*



THIS.

How many people will die from not getting an annual physical, from not doing their yearly skin cancer screening, from not going to the doctor for what ails them & then they die from a heart attack or a later-than-normal diagnosed cancer, or something else, etc....?  How many jobs will be lost from being capriciously cautious rather than realistically cautious?

I had a huge epiphany a few weeks ago while analyzing pharmaceutical sales data.  As one might expect, sales of everything are down.  It's pretty tough to prescribe drugs when doctors offices are closed.  It's pretty tough to prescribe drugs when patients are afraid to go to the doctor's office.  It's pretty hard to prescribe surgical drugs when most elective surgeries were restricted. You get the picture.  There's literally only 1 drug in our entire pharma portfolio whose sales are UP during COVID19.   That drug?  It's an anti-depressant.  That was a real eye-opener for me in terms of just how serious the unintended negative consequences of COVID19 responses might be, and it is very sad & troubling.  I'm confident that story will one-day be told.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> No, it's not hypocritical at all, because they're completely dissimilar situations in myriad numerous ways, which should be obvious to you.
> 
> Secondly, the hallways are not going to be "packed", as social distancing measures & spacing will be strictly enforced at every school.
> 
> Science needs to rule the day here, not human emotion.



How dense are you?  It's obvious to almost everyone in numerous myriad ways except for yourself.

Nationally there has been no policy set forth on educational guidelines to Covid response because well.... Betsy Devos. Current federal policy leadership is unequivocally anti-science compared to any time in modern history. Yet you bang for a scientific response to drive policy and think it exists?

But, The feds have completely punted, so that's irrelevant.

So let's look at the states. 

I have not seen a single unified State plan that guarantees no packed hallways and strict enforcement of social distancing.  Even if there were such a thing, there's no language or investment guarantees in the resources needed to achieve it; which the vast majority of school districts in this country do not have.  

It's hard enough to control adolescent behavior in schools during normal times, yet you some how feel EVERY school will have a plan for strict spacing and social distancing and that they will execute such correctly and effectively? While undermanned?  

That's rich.

Holy fuck what a bubble of disconnected reality you live in. Yet you always profess to be AZs leader on scientific understanding and application. 

Note (again): I'm not against kids going back to school. I just want to see a plan before I admit my child. That was the entirety of my point.  Having to choose prior to fully knowing the plan should be bothersome for any parent. 

 I don't see a plan yet locally despite the very good school district we live in. I don't see a solid plan at the state level despite NH always ranking in the top 20% of state education results.  Throw in the feds almost ignoring a commitment to getting this right.  And school is supposed to begin  in a matter of weeks for parts of the country and already has for some, which Smellytele pointed out hasn't exactly gone so well.

Open your eyes dude

You won't though.  As always you'll dig your heels and find some angle to beat chest as the smartest guy in the room. 

Reread my first sentence







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----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as it is really not the students who need the protecting.
> 
> This honestly really shouldn't be terribly hard.  Something like as follows is entirely rational based on evidence-based medicine.
> 
> ...


CD points out real life reality

BG says no. Accept my imaginary reality

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----------



## Quietman (Aug 9, 2020)

How do we expect our younger children to social distance in schools hallways when adults refuse to, and won't wear masks?  And this from Iowa, not Fl or TX!



https://www.vox.com/2020/8/8/21357625/covid-19-iowa-lakes-okoboji-kim-reynolds-masks


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as it is really not the students who need the protecting.
> 
> This honestly really shouldn't be terribly hard.  Something like as follows is entirely rational based on evidence-based medicine.
> 
> ...



Wow it's that easy? Why isn't this thing squashed yet then? Maybe it's because the ringleader for the Barnum and Bailey circus of a Whitehouse only supported wearing mask 5 months after this thing began and makes statements such as: "this thing will go away on it's own". Sounds like science to me. Morale of the story, there has been little to no unified strategy to provide a solution to this issue. Unlike other countries who have since largely returned tk normal we have continued our fractured effort and the cases climb. And here were at today, with communities trying to formulate and enforce their own solution when the person at the top is more worried about bashing people on Twitter than setting a good example and doing their job.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 9, 2020)

Like I said there are people on here that know everything.


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----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 9, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Wow it's that easy? Why isn't this thing squashed yet then? Maybe it's because the ringleader for the Barnum and Bailey circus of a Whitehouse only supported wearing mask 5 months after this thing began and makes statements such as: "this thing will go away on it's own". Sounds like science to me. Morale of the story, there has been little to no unified strategy to provide a solution to this issue. Unlike other countries who have since largely returned tk normal we have continued our fractured effort and the cases climb. And here were at today, with communities trying to formulate and enforce their own solution when the person at the top is more worried about bashing people on Twitter than setting a good example and doing their job.




This narrative of the United States being the only country seeing an increase in cases is completely false, there are many countries around the world seeing an increase in cases, including many once touted as doing a far superior job to the US.  Ironically (or maybe not) one of the countries not seeing a "surge" is Sweden, go figure.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 9, 2020)

Yesterday I saw a brother in law who had contracted Covid in early  March . He's a postal worker mechanic who works a facility in Michigan . He's convinced he got it from a coworker who he was in close contact (3') with while working on a machine with for an hour or so . His facility had 2 deaths out of 15 cases . They had underlying health problems and in there 60's 

Schools will definitely transmit the virus , maybe heard immunity will be increased but at a cost ? I don't think there are any easy answers for this evil scourge .  Politicians shouldn't be using this for gain on either side . 

My sons starting high school this year with a modified schedule , rotating 3 days at school and 2 days home (on line) then 2 days at school and 3 days at home . The school has 3k students !  It's attempt to buy more space between students but I think in the end won't make a difference . Tough time all around ,my neighbor works in the same school and is leaving her job as an aid . She's older and doesn't want to take the chance . 

Just curious . What were anti-depressant sales like in Sweden?


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 9, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> This narrative of the United States being the only country seeing an increase in cases is completely false, there are many countries around the world seeing an increase in cases, including many once touted as doing a far superior job to the US.  Ironically (or maybe not) one of the countries not seeing a "surge" is Sweden, go figure.



I hope you're referring to a narrative that is not mine. I said unlike "other countries", not every other country. Ones head would be in the sand thinking the US is the only one. But we are in the minority. Haven't seen any 200,000 person biker gatherings anywhere else. :roll:


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 9, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I hope you're referring to a narrative that is not mine. I said unlike "other countries", not every other country. Ones head would be in the sand thinking the US is the only one. But we are in the minority. Haven't seen any 200,000 person biker gatherings anywhere else. :roll:



Countries around the world are seeing increases, but yeah, we're in the minority


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> How dense are you?  It's obvious to almost everyone in numerous myriad ways except for yourself.
> 
> Nationally there has been no policy set forth on educational guidelines to Covid response because well.... Betsy Devos. Current federal policy leadership is unequivocally anti-science compared to any time in modern history. Yet you bang for a scientific response to drive policy and think it exists?
> 
> ...



Holy crap!   You are one nasty, arrogant, unstable, S.O.B.   This post/response is shocking, even by your standards.

I simply lay out what I think would be parts of a rational school solution which is the topic here, based on evidence-based medicine, and your reply is a 300 page War And Piece insult-laden disconnected, emotional, all-over-the-map, word salad.  

I just found 1 more anti-depressant sale.  Yikes!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Countries around the world are seeing increases, but yeah, we're in the minority



The weaponized politicization of this virus is ******* infuriating.  As if this all wasn't a horrible & difficult situation enough, it just had to happen during an election year.  I didnt think I could possibly lose more respect for politicians & the media, but here we are.....


----------



## kbroderick (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as it is really not the students who need the protecting.
> 
> ...
> 5) All current, best practice, CDC recommended social distancing is followed.
> ...



And in what world is that possible?

I think 95% might be a little high—teacher demographics skew older and thus more likely to have other health issues—but the best-practice guidelines issued by the CDC are not achievable in our current schools without more staff and more space (which both translate to a lot more money). Had we been planning for opening with those guidelines since March and provided the funding, there's a chance we could have; without doing so, we're stuck in a position of limited openings (in place where community spread is limited) with a high likelihood of closing again during the school year.

Putting aside the spacing issue, one or two teachers needing to isolate for 14 days (or longer), on top of stricter "stay home if sick" guidelines, mean that we're going to run out of staff in most schools for non-trivial periods of time this school year. Schools are petri dishes, and I'd bet that most teachers have worked with minor cold symptoms...but it's no longer safe to assume that a cold is a cold, so even before your staff get Covid (which some likely will), you're going to loose a lot of in-person days to routine cold symptoms. And if you even have subs available, good luck with them being subject-matter experts in whatever class they happen to be teaching. In the ideal world, they'd be able implement whatever lesson plan was handed to them, but that's probably not reality in most places.

Given that likelihood, I'd argue that the first priority has to be making transition to remote learning as smooth as possible and making sure that both teachers and students are as prepared for such a possibility as they can be. Districts that have low-enough community transmission rates and high-enough testing rates (with low-enough positive rates) should, IMO, be reopening but with contingency plans in place based on the *expectation*, not just the possibility, that some portion of the coming year will need to remote due to changing local conditions.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

It's already possible & happening around the globe.

Teacher demographics actually skew younger, not older.  I have no idea what the average age of a teacher in the USA is, but I imagine it's something like 40 or so.  Older teachers frequently retire or leave early or get "pushed-out" as they're near the top of the pay scale ( the "pushed-out" thing is lousy, but it happens ALL the time at my wife's school district).

You make an excellent point about the staff though, obviously if a teacher tests positive they'll be out-of-circulation for several weeks, but that's where the subs some in as you note.  It should be a rare enough occurrence that I think it'd be manageable though, especially given the school reopening examples we can learn from in other nations which seem to be doing okay with this issue.


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## kbroderick (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's already possible & happening around the globe.
> 
> Teacher demographics actually skew younger, not older.  I have no idea what the average age of a teacher in the USA is, but I imagine it's something like 40 or so.  Older teachers frequently retire or leave early or get "pushed-out" as they're near the top of the pay scale ( the "pushed-out" thing is lousy, but it happens ALL the time at my wife's school district).
> 
> You make an excellent point about the staff though, obviously if a teacher tests positive they'll be out-of-circulation for several weeks, but that's where the subs some in as you note.  It should be a rare enough occurrence that I think it'd be manageable though, especially given the school reopening examples we can learn from in other nations which seem to be doing okay with this issue.



Hmm...they seemed a lot older when I was actually in school, but that's probably perception. Average age of a public-school teacher nationwide is apparently 42.4 (https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/sass/tables/sass1112_2013314_t1s_002.asp).

It's tough to make comparisons around the globe when the per-capita case rates and positive testing percentages in the US (and particularly in certain parts of the US) are so much higher. As I said, I do think that it's plausible (and probably a good idea) for districts with low-to-no community spread to reopen. I don't think that's the case for places where community spread is a major issue.

I still think the sub availability is one of the biggest issues that isn't getting a lot of press. If it ends up being truly rare for a teacher to test positive, it may not be as big an impact as I think it is, but my guess is that even one or two mutli-week absences *on top of* the existing sub demand are going to make it a big issue. If you have a quarantine-after-exposure protocol and an infected teacher was in a break room or an out-of-school social event with other teachers, you have an exponentially bigger problem.


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## cdskier (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Teacher demographics actually skew younger, not older.  I have no idea what the average age of a teacher in the USA is, but I imagine it's something like 40 or so.  Older teachers frequently retire or leave early or get "pushed-out" as they're near the top of the pay scale ( the "pushed-out" thing is lousy, but it happens ALL the time at my wife's school district).



42.6 in the entire US. And about 1/3 are 50 and over. 19% are 55+. Those numbers skew higher in New England (Maine, VT, and NH are all closer to 30% being 55+ and 40-45% being 50+) and average ages are also more in the mid to upper 40s.


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## machski (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as it is really not the students who need the protecting.
> 
> This honestly really shouldn't be terribly hard.  Something like as follows is entirely rational based on evidence-based medicine.
> 
> ...


Super easy, huh?  You have no clue dude.  Trying to maintain order in the halls and keep students socially distanced is not easy.  They want to socially interact and keeping them separated will not be easy.  What's the penalty for not, detentions?

I have heard some schools are considering having students remain in one classroom at their desk all day long, have teacher's rotate and even have lunch at their desks (cater in from the cafe to class rooms).  But can you really picture kids sitting at their desk for a 7 hour or so day?  Nothing is easy about this.

As of now, our district is a choice for parents, full time in or full time remote.  Remote will involve televised classes online the remote students will join in/follow.  However, there are currently no options for the teachers, they have to be in person.  The union is pushing for a remote choice for them as well, but how that would actually work with in school students remains to be figured out (assuming they clear the first hurdle).

NOTHING, I REPEAT NOTHING on returning to school in this time is EASY or straightforward!!

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## machski (Aug 9, 2020)

slatham said:


> Getting back on topic of what ski areas are doing....
> 
> https://magicmtn.com/alpine-update/


I'm figuring reservations will be the norm and not the exception this year, full season pass holders included.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

machski said:


> *I have heard some schools are considering having students remain in one classroom at their desk all day long*..... *can you really picture kids sitting at their desk for a 7 hour or so day?*



Do you mean the way school was taught for most of all recorded human history with the exception of the last roughly 70 to 80'ish years?  

Sorry, I just dont see kids being in one room sans bathroom breaks as being the helter-skelter, madness & chaos some here are describing it as, especially using history as a guide.   Frankly, I dont even understand that opinion.  Perhaps describe it so I can.

 You do what you have to do sometimes to get by, and I'm of the opinion that keeping kids out of school is far worse than the alternative.  Again, it's not the kids you have to worry about, it's a limited number of teachers that would be in danger.  Those teachers generally know who they are & should remain home.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 9, 2020)

DHS is ignoring a very important fact in regard to his school district.  Since the district is offering a choice between online learning and in person learning, the higher risk teachers will be selected to staff online learning.  The teachers that are at much lower risk will be the ones who are actually in the classroom.


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## Smellytele (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you mean the way school was taught for most of all recorded human history with the exception of the last roughly 70 to 80'ish years?
> 
> Sorry, I just dont see kids being in one room sans bathroom breaks as being the helter-skelter, madness & chaos some here are describing it as, especially using history as a guide.   Frankly, I dont even understand that opinion.  Perhaps describe it so I can.
> 
> You do what you have to do sometimes to get by, and I'm of the opinion that keeping kids out of school is far worse than the alternative.  Again, it's not the kids you have to worry about, it's a limited number of teachers that would be in danger.  Those teachers generally know who they are & should remain home.



You are an idiot. High school students have different classes and no one has the same classes. You do live in some weird bubble of existence. 
It would work in elementary school but not high school.


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## icecoast1 (Aug 9, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> It would work in elementary school but not high school.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Could the teachers move room to room while the kids stay put or do they not have legs in this scenario?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 9, 2020)

In the public school I went to, different levels of math and English classes started  in the third grade.  So, even at that early of an age, you would have challenges keeping kids in the same classroom all day. 

Anyways, I see BGs interviews for Secretary of Education are going really well!  Should be a near unanimous confirmation.  A most excellent successor to Devos.  

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *You are an idiot. *High school students have different classes and no one has the same classes. You do live in some weird bubble of existence.
> *It would work in elementary school but not high school.*



This guys calls me an "idiot", while simultaneously agreeing it would work for approximately 70% of all American students.

Let that sink in for a moment.

 I'd also be curious to know if you have ever stated you think High Schools should be closed due to the common flu given *influenza is far more deadly to this patient population* than COVID19 is?   Dont worry, you need not answer that, it's a rhetorical question given it's pretty obvious you had absolutely no idea of that fact.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 9, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> In the public school I went to, different levels of math and English classes started  in the third grade.  So, even at that early of an age, you would have challenges keeping kids in the same classroom all day.



We started with different levels in 6th grade in my district. Point remains that once you move past some of the earlier years, the students in your "home room" are not the students you're in classes with all day and you can't just have sets of students stay put and teachers rotate. My district was on the smaller side. We had maybe 120 or so students per grade level. Even there, there were maybe 2 or 3 other students that shared the exact same classes as me in HS (and even that could be pushing it and it might have really been 0). Between electives, honors classes, AP classes, etc, there's far too many potential combinations.


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## Smellytele (Aug 9, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This guys calls me an "idiot", while simultaneously agreeing it would work for approximately 70% of all American students.
> 
> Let that sink in for a moment.
> 
> I'd also be curious to know if you have ever stated you think High Schools should be closed due to the common flu given *influenza is far more deadly to this patient population* than COVID19 is?   Dont worry, you need not answer that, it's a rhetorical question given it's pretty obvious you had absolutely no idea of that fact.




Not talking about if schools should be closed . Talking about your stupid suggestion of what could be done. You have a answer for everything and think you know everything. If only you ruled the world everything would be perfect. As others said it may not even work at the lower levels.



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## BenedictGomez (Aug 9, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Not talking about if schools should be closed . Talking about your stupid suggestion of what could be done.



That's about what I thought, you've got nothing; no explanation, no answer.   Like I said, it was a rhetorical question.  Just move along & let the adults talk next time.


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## machski (Aug 10, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Could the teachers move room to room while the kids stay put or do they not have legs in this scenario?


Yes they could, but at High School, not all students have the same classes (kind of like college, there are electives that result in 10's if not 100's of different schedules).  So unless you curtailed the electives and just made all High School students take the same coursework, no it wouldn't work with teachers only moving 

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## Newpylong (Aug 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This guys calls me an "idiot", while simultaneously agreeing it would work for approximately 70% of all American students.
> 
> Let that sink in for a moment.
> 
> I'd also be curious to know if you have ever stated you think High Schools should be closed due to the common flu given *influenza is far more deadly to this patient population* than COVID19 is?   Dont worry, you need not answer that, it's a rhetorical question given it's pretty obvious you had absolutely no idea of that fact.



Well, to be fair, you are an idiot if you think it's entirely about the student population.


----------



## machski (Aug 10, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> DHS is ignoring a very important fact in regard to his school district.  Since the district is offering a choice between online learning and in person learning, the higher risk teachers will be selected to staff online learning.  The teachers that are at much lower risk will be the ones who are actually in the classroom.


That is not how it is working in my wife's district.  They are full time in but parents have a choice to be full time remote for kids.  Remote kids will be joining in on live classes online this go around.  So they are part of the class just not physically in class.  Teachers currently have no choice, they are either in school or try to get on the Covid unemployment ranks.

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----------



## mbedle (Aug 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as it is really not the students who need the protecting.
> 
> This honestly really shouldn't be terribly hard.  Something like as follows is entirely rational based on evidence-based medicine.
> 
> ...



How are you going to get 95% of the student body back into school when upwards of 45% of the population is obese? Isn't obesity considered a comorbidity by the CDC? Add in the other list comorbidity listed on CDC's website, I just don't see how your example would result in 95% of students being able to return to schools. Plus you have to take into account the number of obese and diabetic teachers and subs that exists in the US.


----------



## boston_e (Aug 10, 2020)

Magic offers a first hint of what 20/21 season could be like:


https://magicmtn.com/alpine-update/


Some highlights:
- likely skier visit restricted capacity 
- online reservations (with pass holders getting first dibs)
- reservations for table space inside lodges
- expanded outdoor seating etc.


I'm sure all are subject to change, but I'm guessing we will see similar start to emerge at most resorts.


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## Smellytele (Aug 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's about what I thought, you've got nothing; no explanation, no answer.   Like I said, it was a rhetorical question.  Just move along & let the adults talk next time.



Thanks for your useless non working response. I don’t have what will work but your thoughts will not.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 10, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Well, to be fair, *you are an idiot if you think it's entirely about the student population.*



Does lack of reading comprehension count for "idiocy" given many times in this thread I've specifically stated the danger is NOT to the student population?



BenedictGomez said:


> Then shame on that school, because it's easy to enact, but frankly, no matter as *it is really not the students who need the protecting. *





BenedictGomez said:


> You do what you have to do sometimes to get by, and I'm of the opinion that keeping kids out of school is far worse than the alternative.  *Again, it's not the kids you have to worry about, it's a limited number of teachers that would be in danger.  Those teachers generally know who they are & should remain home.*





BenedictGomez said:


> I'd also be curious to know if you have ever stated you think High Schools should be closed due to the common flu given *influenza is far more deadly to this patient population than COVID19* is?


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 10, 2020)

machski said:


> That is not how it is working in my wife's district.  They are full time in but parents have a choice to be full time remote for kids.  Remote kids will be joining in on live classes online this go around.  So they are part of the class just not physically in class.  Teachers currently have no choice, they are either in school or try to get on the Covid unemployment ranks.


Interesting.  The one local school district that I am familiar with will have two distinct tracks.  The teachers that are teaching online will not have any in-person interaction with students.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2020)

machski said:


> That is not how it is working in my wife's district.  They are full time in but parents have a choice to be full time remote for kids.  Remote kids will be joining in on live classes online this go around.  So they are part of the class just not physically in class.  Teachers currently have no choice, they are either in school or try to get on the Covid unemployment ranks.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


Best I can tell from the information available on our SAU website, in class and remote instruction will be done by the same teacher.  The remote curriculum will be modified to be more project based and there will be daily interaction between the remote and in class students via Zoom. 

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 10, 2020)

Same for ours though all the details are still coming. I will be pushing for them to go back, I am comfortable with it (for now) and remote was a royal PITA and that was with it being loosey goosey.

My daughter's preschool is not allowing backpacks in the building, that's a head scratcher for me.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 10, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> *My daughter's preschool is not allowing backpacks in the building, that's a head scratcher for me.*



Whoever made that decision is still living in April 2020.


----------



## skiur (Aug 10, 2020)

Why do you guys argue with BG, you know he is right  100% of the time.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 10, 2020)

skiur said:


> Why do you guys argue with BG, you know he is right  100% of the time.



Point out the things regarding COVID19 in this thread I'm wrong about; and please use facts like I have which can be backed up by either CDC guidance or completed clinical studies, rather than emotional blather. 

*CRITICALLY*, please contact The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and let them know why they're wrong too.  You'll be doing your nation a great service.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 10, 2020)

6 students and 3 faculty have now tested positive at the school from the viral photo of crowded hallways last week. Off to a good start! And the superintendent of the district says the crowded hallway situation isn't a big deal because it only happens for short periods between classes. He also says he can't require students to wear masks...


----------



## cdskier (Aug 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> *CRITICALLY*, please contact The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and let them know why they're wrong too.  You'll be doing your nation a great service.



Let's look carefully at what the AAP said. There are a lot of caveats and conditions they raised (including substantial new investments in schools to be able to reopen safely):



> Returning to school is important for the healthy development and well-being of children, but we must pursue re-opening in a way that is safe for all students, teachers and staff. Science should drive decision-making on safely reopening schools. Public health agencies must make recommendations based on evidence, not politics. We should leave it to health experts to tell us when the time is best to open up school buildings, and listen to educators and administrators to shape how we do it.
> 
> Local school leaders, public health experts, educators and parents must be at the center of decisions about how and when to reopen schools, taking into account the spread of COVID-19 in their communities and the capacities of school districts to adapt safety protocols to make in-person learning safe and feasible. For instance, schools in areas with high levels of COVID-19 community spread should not be compelled to reopen against the judgment of local experts. A one-size-fits-all approach is not appropriate for return to school decisions.
> 
> Reopening schools in a way that maximizes safety, learning, and the well-being of children, teachers, and staff will clearly require substantial new investments in our schools and campuses. We call on Congress and the administration to provide the federal resources needed to ensure that inadequate funding does not stand in the way of safely educating and caring for children in our schools. Withholding funding from schools that do not open in person fulltime would be a misguided approach, putting already financially strapped schools in an impossible position that would threaten the health of students and teachers.


----------



## p_levert (Aug 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> You are an idiot...



Not an idiot, just obnoxious.


----------



## skiur (Aug 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Point out the things regarding COVID19 in this thread I'm wrong about; and please use facts like I have which can be backed up by either CDC guidance or completed clinical studies, rather than emotional blather.
> 
> *CRITICALLY*, please contact The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and let them know why they're wrong too.  You'll be doing your nation a great service.



How could I point anything out? Did you not read my post?  We all know you are the supreme poster on AZ.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> 6 students and 3 faculty have now tested positive at the school from the viral photo of crowded hallways last week. Off to a good start! And the superintendent of the district says the crowded hallway situation isn't a big deal because it only happens for short periods between classes. He also says he can't require students to wear masks...



So the reality is with the situation in Georgia. one of the school aged kids had been infected, and probably in a sub acute way, from some other location outside of the school. Either the student wasn't showing any symptoms or the parents chose to send the student to school anyway (if it's the later, that's a problem). 

Now the other variable is was the 8 others to since test positive, are we certain that they came into contact with the initial student presumed to be the infection source, or may there be another student or faculty who was also infected and not aware? Also, did the other 8 cases now from that school spend a fair amount of time in close contact with the presumed initial case (such as sitting near that student or just in the same classroom or bus) or was it just possibly from some random passing ion the hall for a short period of time. 

Also, what is the health status of the other people? Did they have some other co-morbidities? Were they using proper mask wearing protocols as well as hand sanitizing policies? 

There are likely far more critical details that the headlines elude to with this story


----------



## cdskier (Aug 10, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Were they using proper mask wearing protocols as well as hand sanitizing policies?
> 
> There are likely far more critical details that the headlines elude to with this story



I agree. We already know mask compliance there was extremely low. And I think it is utter BS that the district says they can't require masks. Why not? In my town when I was a kid we had requirements on when you could wear shorts and how long they had to be. Yet something that plays a critical role in health and safety isn't possible to require and enforce down in Georgia? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 10, 2020)

skiur said:


> How could I point anything out? Did you not read my post?  We all know you are the supreme poster on AZ.



Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I agree. *We already know mask compliance there was extremely low. And I think it is utter BS that the district says they can't require masks. Why not? In my town when I was a kid we had requirements on when you could wear shorts and how long they had to be. *Yet something that plays a critical role in health and safety isn't possible to require and enforce down in Georgia? *Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.*



Agreed.  Though I'm not a lawyer, so maybe there's something there we're not comprehending in the public context. 

 Your shorts example is better than this, but I'll give a similar example in that if we didn't have a coat we were prevented from going outside for recess in winter.  That's not an article of clothing driven ban on attending school, but it is an article of clothing ban on attending an activity at school.  So at a minimum, wouldn't it be okay to say, _"if your high school kid wont wear a mask they must attend the distance learning"_ option of school?   At any rate, I'm pretty sure all private schools can require mask use since they can legally require all other sorts of clothing (pants, skirts, collared shirts, bloushes, etc..).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2020)

Spyder helped with this project; a mask with a built-in gaiter & a special fabric.

Ski life in 2020 I guess.

https://airbandmask.com/collections/masks/products/unisex-airband-gaiter


----------



## drjeff (Aug 18, 2020)

Going to be interesting to see in some counties, where the virus prevalence may not have been too great recently, and at a level where if one wants to go to VT, their home county has been in a "green" status, what happens if they happen to have a college in their county, as the students come back on campus if they aren't all virtual, and how the likely positive cases, even if not in great quantity, affect on'e home counties "VT color travel" status??

I will say that while I don't live too far from the UCONN campus, I am glad that the campus is located just on the the other side of that imaginary line that delineates my home county from the county that the UCONN campus is in....


----------



## zoomzoom (Aug 22, 2020)

am hoping skiers/riders from "hotspots" as defined below, will quarantine as required by the gov before arriving in our safe state.  

https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


----------



## machski (Aug 23, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> am hoping skiers/riders from "hotspots" as defined below, will quarantine as required by the gov before arriving in our safe state.
> 
> https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


Good luck with that.  I live 1/2 mile inside the one "bad" NH county.  I seriously doubt I'll let that short distance guide my decisions this winter, especially with my town having next to none and we do all our shopping in a "good" county.

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## JimG. (Aug 23, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> am hoping skiers/riders from "hotspots" as defined below, will quarantine as required by the gov before arriving in our safe state.
> 
> https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel



You may get your wish. But I hope Vermont has a good year selling cheddar cheese and maple syrup because the VT economy isn't going to survive if the "bad" people from "hotspot" areas stay away. 

I already concede that I will defer my K pass to 21-22 and ski in NY only. So VT won't be getting a dime from me. 

Does this make you happy?


----------



## Edd (Aug 23, 2020)

I was looking forward to having Sunapee on a pass this season but I’ve a feeling it’s going to be busier than usual if VT is problematic for visitors. 


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2020)

machski said:


> Good luck with that.  I live 1/2 mile inside the one "bad" NH county.  I seriously doubt I'll let that short distance guide my decisions this winter, especially with my town having next to none and *we do all our shopping in a "good" county.*



This isnt what you meant, but it got me thinking about what I think is one of those uncovered COVID19 stories.  There are people from areas where COVID19 is bad that are intentionally traveling rather far to do their shopping in the "good" counties, and it's somewhat obvious if you live in one of those good counties.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You may get your wish. But I hope Vermont has a good year selling cheddar cheese and maple syrup because the VT economy isn't going to survive if the "bad" people from "hotspot" areas stay away.



I dont follow Vermont media, but has anyone seen this addressed as a function of tax dollars & the hole it will create?  I know when I lived in Vermont, taxes on "all-in" tourist spending was one of the largest sources of revenue for the state.  Just restaurants & lodging alone IIRC was something like #2 or #3 highest tax capture, let alone all the other manner in which tourist tax dollars are captured.  So much of that is gone given May, June, July, and now August are mostly a loss.


----------



## zoomzoom (Aug 23, 2020)

vt's response to the virus depends on the actions of others in neighboring states.  so we'll see what you folks can accomplish in the next few months.  i admit it is likely that the economies of many states will tank, because the orange shitstain isn't up to the task of leading the country through this mess.


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 23, 2020)

Everybody is ignoring the quarantine rules in Vermont.  There are tons of New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts license plates on the roads.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Everybody is ignoring the quarantine rules in Vermont.  There are tons of New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts license plates on the roads.



Who wants to deal with any potential hassle? I don't go skiing to deal with that.

I can live without skiing in VT for a season.


----------



## chuckstah (Aug 23, 2020)

Looks like NH only for me this season ( maybe some Maine days also),  won't be spending a dime in VT like JimG. I'm not sure how VT will survive an entire year with very limited out of state visits.  NH should be harvesting the Lions share of  tax dollars that VT will lose. As Edd said, NH will be packed if this continues.  I now think a midweek Epic is the play at less than $350 with several NH options.  

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## thebigo (Aug 23, 2020)

I am interested to see the NH rooms and meals receipts for july and August, latest data I can find is from june. Spent last week at squam lake and it was absolutely slammed with out of state plates. The MA, CT and RI plates are nothing new but it felt like the number of mid Atlantic and even south east plates were up significantly. 

Per NYT tracker vermont maine and new Hampshire holding strong as the three lowest per capita new cases for yet another week. 

As a midweek NH skier I am not looking forward to increased crowds but the reality is that catitash has plenty of excess capacity the vast majority of the season. Also, 16 acts as a natural filter for the day trip crowd from the population centers. Crotch is empty midweek, not sure about sunapee but i doubt crowds will be a problem the handful of tuesdays or wednesdays I ski it this year.


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## cdskier (Aug 23, 2020)

thebigo said:


> I am interested to see the NH rooms and meals receipts for july and August, latest data I can find is from june. Spent last week at squam lake and it was absolutely slammed with out of state plates. The MA, CT and RI plates are nothing new but it felt like the number of mid Atlantic and even south east plates were up significantly.



I'm not overly surprised. From an NJ perspective, NH is considered "safe" and doesn't require people to quarantine when they come back to NJ. One of my friends took his family up to Lincoln, NH for the first time instead of their original planned family vacation in DE. DE would have required 14 days quarantine when they returned to NJ which would have been a problem for his wife's job. FWIW, his kids said it was their "best vacation ever" and liked the hiking and other activities better than going to the beach in DE. I'm sure he wasn't the only one from NJ that decided to head north instead of south for a summer vacation.


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## urungus (Aug 24, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Everybody is ignoring the quarantine rules in Vermont.  There are tons of New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts license plates on the roads.



How do you know they haven’t quarantined?  Or even that that they need to quarantine ... there are “green” counties in all 3 of those states.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 24, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Who wants to deal with any potential hassle? I don't go skiing to deal with that.
> 
> I can live without skiing in VT for a season.


I believe VT is going to lift some if not all travel restrictions come fall and winter after reading this. https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/21/sco...economic-recovery-including-150-gift-cards-﻿/
If they plan to invest 10 million into tourism they have to lift the restrictions. 

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## ALLSKIING (Aug 24, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> I believe VT is going to lift some if not all travel restrictions come fall and winter after reading this. https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/21/sco...economic-recovery-including-150-gift-cards-﻿/
> If they plan to invest 10 million into tourism they have to lift the restrictions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


This is interesting 
https://www.travelpulse.com/news/im...ne-after-traveling.html#.X0PXSAx0cVc.facebook

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## JimG. (Aug 24, 2020)

Well it's true that it is still 90 days to Thanksgiving so anything can happen still.

We shall see.


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## Not Sure (Aug 24, 2020)

Restaurants .....tough business without covid . Wondering if they got covid $$$ 

Very cheap air fare now . I took a vacation in Colorado last week $176.00 round trip Philly to Denver . Lots of United jets mothballed in Denver.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 24, 2020)

My comments were about gross revenue for the two restaurants.  Point being, there's still been a significant amount of people in Stowe spending money this summer.

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## Not Sure (Aug 24, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> My comments were about gross revenue for the two restaurants.  Point being, there's still been a significant amount of people in Stowe spending money this summer.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Very encouraging ! I was hoping that any covid $ would make up the difference .


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 25, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> My comments were about gross revenue for the two restaurants.  Point being, there's still been a significant amount of people in Stowe spending money this summer.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


I haven't been up to Killington in 2 months but a friend has been up at his place for two weeks now and said he has never seen it busier during the summer. Its everyone taking "local vacations " instead of traveling far.

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## boston_e (Aug 25, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> I believe VT is going to lift some if not all travel restrictions come fall and winter after reading this. https://vtdigger.org/2020/08/21/sco...economic-recovery-including-150-gift-cards-﻿/
> If they plan to invest 10 million into tourism they have to lift the restrictions.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app



It is unlikely that major resorts would be viable this winter without out of state customers.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 26, 2020)

urungus said:


> How do you know they haven’t quarantined?  Or even that that they need to quarantine ... there are “green” counties in all 3 of those states.



Don’t be so naive.  There is zero enforcement and everybody knows it.

And those green counties aren’t where most people live.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> And those green counties aren’t where most people live.
> View attachment 27030




Oh NO; I'm banned from going to Vermont again starting today!

And a county right by me that was banned yesterday is not banned today!

Life moves fast.







Bonus points for it being because of a prison population, who I'm pretty sure are "quarantined".


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh NO; I'm banned from going to Vermont again starting today!
> 
> And a county right by me that was banned yesterday is not banned today!
> 
> Life moves fast.



The map is updated on Fridays, so you've been back to being banned like most of us in NJ for a few days now! I still think this whole "by county" thing is a little ridiculous...


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## tumbler (Aug 26, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Don’t be so naive.  There is zero enforcement and everybody knows it.
> 
> And those green counties aren’t where most people live.
> 
> View attachment 27030



Been quarantining for 5 months in Mass.  Somehow the COVID is different in VT?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I still think this whole "by county" thing is a little ridiculous...



I don't think it's a terrible idea.  Obviously it has inherent limitations, but I get the logic.  
Makes more sense for, say, New York State than Rhode Island obviously.  

What I've never understood, however, is why Vermont thinks, "active cases per million" needs to be normalized to Vermont's data.  I dont know if I'm missing something obvious, but I fail to see the logic there.  I also dont know what they mean by, "known metrics", and AFAICT, they never explain it, which seems pretty important.



> After weighing each case based on the date that case is reported, our model adds them together. This number is combined with census data to determine “weighted active cases per million.” The model now has the correct distribution and relative values for county infection levels but *needs to be normalized to bring total values into line with known metrics. To achieve this, the algorithm multiplies its outputs by a scale factor α that has been calculated based on Vermont's epidemiological data.* This returns the final value of “normalized active cases per million” in a county. It is this final number that is compared to the 400 cases per million



At any rate I'll be able to go to Vermont again in a few days, because the Vermont model has a significant recency bias which is pretty obvious to figure out if you know your counties' data per day, and our "bad data" for my county was from last week.


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## kbroderick (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I don't think it's a terrible idea.  Obviously it has inherent limitations, but I get the logic.
> Makes more sense for, say, New York State than Rhode Island obviously.
> 
> What I've never understood, however, is why Vermont thinks, "active cases per million" needs to be normalized to Vermont's data.  I dont know if I'm missing something obvious, but I fail to see the logic there.  I also dont know what they mean by, "known metrics", and AFAICT, they never explain it, which seems pretty important.
> ...



On the "by-county" thing, it's probably the last-bad solution they could come up with that had any reasonable chance of implementation. It also meets an important goal: allowing travel to/from upstate New York without lumping the city into the same bucket. At this point, that seems less important, but when the city rates are significantly higher, it allows some level of protection (if the rules are enforced, of course).

I suspect the normalization to Vermont's rates is a "well, allowing travel there shouldn't make things worse"-type theory. Or it may be political in the form of "we're gonna get raked over the coals if we say people doing as well or better than us are a danger to local residents."


----------



## sull1102 (Aug 27, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You may get your wish. But I hope Vermont has a good year selling cheddar cheese and maple syrup because the VT economy isn't going to survive if the "bad" people from "hotspot" areas stay away.
> 
> I already concede that I will defer my K pass to 21-22 and ski in NY only. So VT won't be getting a dime from me.
> 
> Does this make you happy?



This!!!!! I feel like these people that are hardcore stay out of my state are forgetting that they rely on people from MA/NY/NJ/CT to power their economy. It’ll be fascinating to watch what happens this season and next if VT stays the course. Vermonters alone cannot keep all the state’s mountains in business for a full season. 


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## gittist (Aug 27, 2020)

Maine has a 2-week quarantine for everyone except for NY, CT, Vt, NH, and NJ. Prior to that it had no exceptions but part of the way through summer and the economy was tanking Queen Mills let NH and VT in without quarantine or testing. The she let NY, NJ, and CT in. Her comment was their positivity rates were low...I guess all the NY, NJ and CT people that were susceptible to COVID already had it so the new infection numbers were dropping?  

I honestly hope that the federal government doesn't pass any more relief bills and leaves it up to the states to take care of themselves. Why? Because we all have insurance to help the few out that have 'claims'.  Insurance doesn't work when EVERYONE has a claim at the same time. Besides some of states have created self inflicted wounds and expect someone else to pay for it. BS!

Oh well I hope to go skiing in VT and NH this winter and that everyone stays reasonable healthy.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> *I suspect the normalization to Vermont's rates is a **"well, allowing travel there shouldn't make things worse"-type theory.* *Or it may be political in the form of "we're gonna get raked over the coals if we say people doing as well or better than us are a danger to local residents."*



Both of those are very clever theories to explain something that's, well, weird; but your second "political" answer gave me an idea for a third possibility, also political. 

 By smoothing the data to a singular "Vermont number" rather than also using Vermont county data, you can make the entire Vermont travel ban far more restrictive.  

For instance, Chittenden County has higher COVID19 than many counties in the northeast, yet it doeskin make it "okay" for people to travel to Vermont if they're going to Burlington, even though there's less COVID19 where they live in MA, NJ, CT, NY etc... than there is in Chittenden County, because State of Vermont is using the normalized (much lower COVID19) VT figure rather than the Chittenden figure.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> *Vermonters alone cannot keep all the state’s mountains in business for a full season. *



Yup, and that's an understatement; few Vermonters ski.


----------



## tumbler (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup, and that's an understatement; few Vermonters ski.



And the ones that do ski do not spend money in the lodges and bars.  Those are for the asshole out of staters.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 27, 2020)

Vail's plan is out for the season:

https://www.epicpass.com/info/reservation-details

Passholders only through the 1st week of December, and reservations for each day made up to a week in advance, with passholders having the ability to pre reserve up to 7 days more than a week in advance depending on the type of pass they have.

Some indoor dining. No bars. And various seating plans for different types of lifts are some of the quick take home points I got at 1st glance


----------



## cdskier (Aug 27, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Vail's plan is out for the season:
> 
> https://www.epicpass.com/info/reservation-details
> 
> ...



The reservations one is big. Here's another one:
_To maintain physical distancing on our chairlifts and gondolas, we will only be seating related parties (guests skiing or riding together) or: two singles on opposite sides of a four-person lift; two singles or two doubles on opposite sides of a six-person lift; or two singles on opposite sides of our larger gondola cabins._


----------



## drjeff (Aug 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> The reservations one is big. Here's another one:
> _To maintain physical distancing on our chairlifts and gondolas, we will only be seating related parties (guests skiing or riding together) or: two singles on opposite sides of a four-person lift; two singles or two doubles on opposite sides of a six-person lift; or two singles on opposite sides of our larger gondola cabins._



Depending on what the limits on capacity will be at each resort, while certainly a different thing, I am not sure that this will change the wait times for most lifts, as much a people think they will.  The random person who skies by themselves, is likely to be much more affected by this than say the couple, or families, or group of friends who drove together to the mountain that day


----------



## snoseek (Aug 27, 2020)

So as a midweek wildcat skier I'm probably ok right? Just gotta keep up with my reservations? I pretty much am looking to ski mondays through thursday.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 27, 2020)

Is there anything preventing someone from just making reservations everyday in case they end up deciding to ski, not showing up and preventing people from being able to get a reservation?  Or is it just an honor system?


----------



## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

snoseek said:


> So as a midweek wildcat skier I'm probably ok right? Just gotta keep up with my reservations? I pretty much am looking to ski mondays through thursday.


I would say you should be ok.  Sounds like you can make as many week of resrvations as your pass allows (confusing but I think this is in reference to the epic days type passes that only have a limited amount of days on them).  The crappy part is if you want to say take two, one week trips out west.  You can lock only 7 priority days at a time well in advance.  They are rolling, meaning as soon as you use a priority day, you can lock up a new one again but no guarentee there will be room for you on your second planned trip after you burn down the first one's reservations.

I did notice one caveat, the partner areas currently are not in the reservation system for Epic (Sun Valley, Telluride to name a few).  So unless those resorts establish there own or make some deal with Epic for Epic passholders to have to reserve for them through Epic, your days there are wide open.

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## cdskier (Aug 27, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Is there anything preventing someone from just making reservations everyday in case they end up deciding to ski, not showing up and preventing people from being able to get a reservation?  Or is it just an honor system?



Well there's a limit on how many you can make...you can only have 7 "priority access" days reserved at a time and for "standard" reservations you can only make them for that current week.

Then there's also this:
"We reserve the right to restrict the ability of the pass holder to make future reservations if the reservation system is being abused or manipulated in any way."


----------



## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Is there anything preventing someone from just making reservations everyday in case they end up deciding to ski, not showing up and preventing people from being able to get a reservation?  Or is it just an honor system?


Not directly but they are leaving room to penalize abusers:

Q: What if I do not ski or ride on the day of my reservation?
A: If you no longer plan to use your reservation, you may cancel the reservation by 12:00 am of your planned ski date. The earlier you cancel your reservation, the more likely that a fellow skier or rider will be able to use your spot to enjoy the mountain. You will be able to cancel your reservation by going online at epicpass.com or on our resort sites in your "My Account" profile.

We reserve the right to restrict the ability of the pass holder to make future reservations if the reservation system is being abused or manipulated in any way.

If you are feeling sick or experiencing symptoms, please cancel your reservation and do not visit our resorts for the safety of our guests and employees.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> The reservations one is big. Here's another one:
> _To maintain physical distancing on our chairlifts and *gondolas*, we will *only be seating related parties* (guests skiing or riding together) or: two singles on opposite sides of a four-person lift; two singles or two doubles on opposite sides of a six-person lift; or* two singles on opposite sides of our larger gondola cabins.*_



This will not protect you in gondolas.  While COVID19 is a new virus, the science of viral dispersion is not.  *AVOID.*


----------



## cdskier (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This will not protect you in gondolas.  While COVID19 is a new virus, the science of viral dispersion is not.  *AVOID.*



Agreed...I really don't understand the logic of 2 singles being on opposite sides of a gondola. That literally accomplishes nothing.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Agreed...I really don't understand the logic of *2 singles being on opposite sides* of a gondola. *That literally accomplishes nothing.*



Accomplishing nothing would be better, what Vail's doing is actually worse.  

This is a terrible idea, but if you're going to try to dupe your customers into thinking this is safe, the 2 singles should be on the same bench, but split apart.  That's a terrible idea too, but Vail's idea is worse.


----------



## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Accomplishing nothing would be better, what Vail's doing is actually worse.
> 
> This is a terrible idea, but if you're going to try to dupe your customers into thinking this is safe, the 2 singles should be on the same bench, but split apart.  That's a terrible idea too, but Vail's idea is worse.


It's the same idea hotels are using with elevators to be honest.  Granted, you are likely in a gondi a few minutes longer than an elevator, but most gondis have some type of front/back windows or roof vent you can open where as an elevator, you stick with whatever hvac system it has.  But yeah, I'd avoid the box where I can just as a general rule this season.

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## Smellytele (Aug 27, 2020)

No vail resorts for me this year.


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## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> No vail resorts for me this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Can you do better, I wonder? Won’t everyone be doing this?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 27, 2020)

It will be interesting seeing how this plays out on the busy holiday weeks. I can't imagine that a family is going to reserve their week long rental for say Christmas, and come find out during the priority day reservation period, they can't ski on a couple or more days. I would guess that a lot of lodges will have very lax cancelation policies. This is also going to make it really hard for the powder chasers.


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## ss20 (Aug 27, 2020)

Edd said:


> Can you do better, I wonder? Won’t everyone be doing this?



No; I don't think it will be to this extent.  Vail's company-wide approach to this is stupid because their portfolio is so diverse- soooo many different regions each with different levels of COVID and regulation.  

I think Alterra and the independents will make their judgments based on their local conditions regarding Covid rather than paint a broad brush like Vail.


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## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

ss20 said:


> No; I don't think it will be to this extent.  Vail's company-wide approach to this is stupid because their portfolio is so diverse- soooo many different regions each with different levels of COVID and regulation.
> 
> I think Alterra and the independents will make their judgments based on their local conditions regarding Covid rather than paint a broad brush like Vail.


Sorry, rumor in the know is Alterra is going similar to Epic and working on their system now.  As small as they are, Magic beat Vail saying they will have a reservation system for skiing AND lodge use.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

mbedle said:


> *This is also going to make it really hard for the powder chasers.*



Ughh.....  I hadn't even considered that.  
Hopefully it isnt as bad as it sounds & all skiing isnt going to be "by appointment" only.




ss20 said:


> *Vail's company-wide approach to this is stupid because their portfolio is so diverse- soooo many different regions each with different levels of COVID and regulation.  *



Exactly, but it's the most Vail thing ever to the point where we honestly all should have predicted it.   

EVERYONE must CONFORM to the mothership's directives right down to subparagraph B on page 837 of the manual.


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## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

ss20 said:


> No; I don't think it will be to this extent.  Vail's company-wide approach to this is stupid because their portfolio is so diverse- soooo many different regions each with different levels of COVID and regulation.
> 
> I think Alterra and the independents will make their judgments based on their local conditions regarding Covid rather than paint a broad brush like Vail.



Seems like Vail is falling in line with the rest of society, pretty much. It’s all crowd control. It has to be managed.


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## cdskier (Aug 27, 2020)

machski said:


> Sorry, rumor in the know is Alterra is going similar to Epic and working on their system now.  As small as they are, Magic beat Vail saying they will have a reservation system for skiing AND lodge use.



I'd fully expect something similar from Alterra for the resorts they own. As for the Ikon partners, it will be up to each one I expect on whether they require reservations. Some will and perhaps some won't. I think at the very least starting with a reservation system up front is a good idea. Then you see how it works and can always remove it later on if not needed. Much harder to start without it and have over-crowding and then have to implement it mid-season than to start with it and simply take it away if you realize you don't have any capacity issues.


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## thebigo (Aug 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Well there's a limit on how many you can make...you can only have 7 "priority access" days reserved at a time and for "standard" reservations you can only make them for that current week.
> 
> Then there's also this:
> "We reserve the right to restrict the ability of the pass holder to make future reservations if the reservation system is being abused or manipulated in any way."



I would like to see some sort of a hard penalty. Something along the lines of pass suspension for a set period if a set number of reserved days are unused. 

Other than the potential for abuse, I like the system. We ski around a schedule, not weather. I will be on the website the minute reservations open. Other positives are the plan to proceed with most kids seasonal programs and targeted opening dates in November for all NH/VT, including wildcat on 11/13, obviously weather dependent. Interesting no opening listed for Crotched, likely an oversight.


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## njdiver85 (Aug 27, 2020)

Let me make sure I understand this . . .  outside of the 7 "priority access" reservations that will perhaps be made for a holiday week, and once we are in the regular season, EPIC season pass holders will NOT have any sort of priority in making their "standard" reservations.  They will need to compete with the day ticket holders to try and get a reservation for skiing for any given upcoming week!  What a way to say f/u to all the season pass holders!  I believe this will be a real problem.


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## mister moose (Aug 27, 2020)

Has anyone floated the 1/2 day option?  People get their choice of 8-12, or 12-4 on Saturdays or Holidays.  No lunch in lodges that way.  Shorter day, but you serve twice as many people.  Spend all your time on snow, none in the bathroom line, coffee line, or lunch line.  Rest of the days reserve your 8 hours.


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## Zermatt (Aug 27, 2020)

njdiver85 said:


> Let me make sure I understand this . . .  outside of the 7 "priority access" reservations that will perhaps be made for a holiday week, and once we are in the regular season, EPIC season pass holders will NOT have any sort of priority in making their "standard" reservations.  They will need to compete with the day ticket holders to try and get a reservation for skiing for any given upcoming week!  What a way to say f/u to all the season pass holders!  I believe this will be a real problem.



Remind me how many people have been infected outside while skiing?


----------



## drjeff (Aug 27, 2020)

ss20 said:


> No; I don't think it will be to this extent.  Vail's company-wide approach to this is stupid because their portfolio is so diverse- soooo many different regions each with different levels of COVID and regulation.
> 
> I think Alterra and the independents will make their judgments based on their local conditions regarding Covid rather than paint a broad brush like Vail.



Personally, I can see why Vail took this approach across their entire portfolio (and why I'm guessing Alterra/IKON will too). It makes it consistent for their customers when they go from resort to resort, to have the exact same system in place, so there will be no surprises when say someone from the East goes out West to a resort on their pass. They'll get their day on the hill the same way they have been in the East.

Do I necessarily like it? Nope. But the reality is that given the likely scrutiny ski areas will face from public health officials and the social media presence of some videos of lift lines and then the "Karen" response to those videos, the ski areas need to play by the rules that the various Department of Public Health's in each state/region put out there, if they want to operate. 

Plans like Vail put forth are basically the "best least worst" option for them as we approach this ski season.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

drjeff said:


> *Personally, I can see why Vail took this approach across their entire portfolio (and why I'm guessing Alterra/IKON will too). It makes it consistent for their customers when they go from resort to resort, to have the exact same system in place*, so there will be no surprises when say someone from the East goes out West to a resort on their pass. They'll get their day on the hill the same way they have been in the East.



I dont feel that's treating your customers like adults.  We've been living with this for > 6 months now, and it will be ~9 months by the time ski season's here.  

Am I really to believe that people dont understand different states & areas have different rules after almost a full year of this issue consuming every facet of our entire lives?   To me it just seems like typical Vail, (say it slowly with a zombie voice), _"ev-ree-one muhst beeeeee thuhhhhh saymmeeeeee"_ mentality.


----------



## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont feel that's treating your customers like adults.  We've been living with this for > 6 months now, and it will be ~9 months by the time ski season's here.
> 
> Am I really to believe that people dont understand different states & areas have different rules after almost a full year of this issue consuming every facet of our entire lives?   To me it just seems like typical Vail, (say it slowly with a zombie voice), _"ev-ree-one muhst beeeeee thuhhhhh saymmeeeeee"_ mentality.



Predictability seems to be the point. Plus, you’ll have skiers from different states mixing, east and west. Adopting a standard makes sense to me.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont feel that's treating your customers like adults.  We've been living with this for > 6 months now, and it will be ~9 months by the time ski season's here.
> 
> Am I really to believe that people dont understand different states & areas have different rules after almost a full year of this issue consuming every facet of our entire lives?   To me it just seems like typical Vail, (say it slowly with a zombie voice), _"ev-ree-one muhst beeeeee thuhhhhh saymmeeeeee"_ mentality.



In a society where we have a tough time not only getting some people to wear a mask in public places, let alone getting them to properly wear a mask and practice appropriate hand hygiene, unfortunately I think that we do need to homogenize things, maybe not for the masses, but for the few who often seem to have great difficulty dealing with changes... :roll::roll::roll::roll:


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## EPB (Aug 27, 2020)

drjeff said:


> In a society where we have a tough time not only getting some people to wear a mask in public places, let alone getting them to properly wear a mask and practice appropriate hand hygiene, unfortunately I think that we do need to homogenize things, maybe not for the masses, but for the few who often seem to have great difficulty dealing with changes... :roll::roll::roll::roll:


Just responding to you because this is most recent, but it seems to be more about covering their a$$ legally than anything else. 

Why open yourself up to the possibility of someone suing you because they got Covid at a "relaxed" NH-based resort (e.g. Sunapee), but they "never would have contacted it" if Sunapee had followed the protocols Vail had in place at a "stringent" CA-based resort such as Heavenly? 

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## deadheadskier (Aug 27, 2020)

Mcdonald's serves a Big Mac at every store. They're a franchise.

Vail is also a franchise. I'd expect more standardization moving forward.

Common products, common training and consistency is pretty much the goal of "brands."

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## icecoast1 (Aug 27, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Just responding to you because this is most recent, but it seems to be more about covering their a$$ legally than anything else.
> 
> Why open yourself up to the possibility of someone suing you because they got Covid at a "relaxed" NH-based resort (e.g. Sunapee), but they "never would have contacted it" if Sunapee had followed the protocols Vail had in place at a "stringent" CA-based resort such as Heavenly?
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



If they really want to cover themselves, they'll have everybody sign a waiver at the time of making a reservation saying they wont sue, given today's sue happy world we live in, that would be a smart thing to do.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Just responding to you because this is most recent, but *it seems to be more about covering their a$$ legally *than anything else.



I think this is a great point & probably plays into it.  By standardizing they can at least make the claim that company-wide best practices were put in place (even if some of them are anti-science & idiotic like the gondola policy).


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## EPB (Aug 27, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> If they really want to cover themselves, they'll have everybody sign a waiver at the time of making a reservation saying they wont sue, given today's sue happy world we live in, that would be a smart thing to do.


I'm not a lawyer but I understand these agreements aren't worth a whole lot practically speaking. Common conservative protocols are probably the best bet. I'd also expect Alterra's plan to look almost identical to Vail. Any material inconsistency between the two is a liability for whoever operates more liberally.

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## SLyardsale (Aug 27, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm not a lawyer but I understand these agreements aren't worth a whole lot practically speaking. Common conservative protocols are probably the best bet. I'd also expect Alterra's plan to look almost identical to Vail. Any material inconsistency between the two is a liability for whoever operates more liberally.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



This is why the R's want liability protection in the phase 4 Cares Act.  With out the liab protection, we're gonna see these types of decisions across all industries. The D's are fighting back against liab protection.


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## Smellytele (Aug 27, 2020)

Edd said:


> Can you do better, I wonder? Won’t everyone be doing this?



Going all small Indy ski areas and skinning this year. 


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## Smellytele (Aug 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Mcdonald's serves a Big Mac at every store. They're a franchise.
> 
> Vail is also a franchise. I'd expect more standardization moving forward.
> 
> ...



Some sell McRibs and some don’t. Same with shamrock shakes.[emoji16]


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## deadheadskier (Aug 27, 2020)

Fair enough, but the regional differences between McDonald's are subtle.  Vail is becoming a massive corporate entertainment entity.  With that there will be multiple corporate policies and branding consistent across their portfolio.  No different than say Marriott or Hilton etc.

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## JimG. (Aug 27, 2020)

Decision made...not getting an Epic pass.

Will pull trigger on NYS 3 in 1 soon; might consider a Platty pass too but deadline there is not until 10/15.


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## EPB (Aug 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Fair enough, but the regional differences between McDonald's are subtle.  Vail is becoming a massive corporate entertainment entity.  With that there will be multiple corporate policies and branding consistent across their portfolio.  No different than say Marriott or Hilton etc.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


St is the king of the nitty gritty details [emoji3166]... This was more or less my pre-COVID thesis for why the summit triple at Attitash was short-lived. 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mister moose (Aug 27, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm not a lawyer but I understand these agreements aren't worth a whole lot practically speaking. Common conservative protocols are probably the best bet. I'd also expect Alterra's plan to look almost identical to Vail. Any material inconsistency between the two is a liability for whoever operates more liberally.


It's not just the resort lawyers, it's the insurance companies.  They'll be paying any claims and they will have long lists of compliance items for the resort.  As much liability as possible will get passed to the end user.   Read a pass waiver lately?


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## zoomzoom (Aug 27, 2020)

re: "the cdc quietly drops mandatory14-day quarantine after traveling"
seems the cdc no longer recommends that travelers quarantine after arriving in areas with high covid cases.     

they do recommend following local restrictions while traveling.  

"State, local, and territorial governments may have travel restrictions in place, including testing requirements, stay-at-home orders, and quarantine requirements upon arrival. Follow state, local, and territorial travel restrictions. For up-to-date information and travel guidance, check the state, territorial, tribal and local health department where you are, along your route, and where you are going. Prepare to be flexible during your trip as restrictions and policies may change during your travel.  State, local, and territorial governments may have travel restrictions in place, including testing requirements, stay-at-home orders, and quarantine requirements upon arrival. Follow state, local, and territorial travel restrictions. For up-to-date information and travel guidance, check the state, territorial, tribal and local health department where you are, along your route, and where you are going. Prepare to be flexible during your trip as restrictions and policies may change during your travel."

am expecting a yuge mess this fall: with college students booted back home after failing to comply w/college rules, little tax revenue from skiers/riders, a complication for those trying sorting out seasonal flu from covid now that the cdc only will test symptomatic patients.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

Got this email from ski.com.  

They're basically pushing COVID19 as a once-in-a-lifetime "opportunity" to spend a winter living in ski country.



> *WORK FROM HOME, FROM THE MOUNTAINS*
> _Every skier and rider has dreamed of spending at least one season at their favorite resort. Since many employers have implemented new WFH policies, this could be your chance to make your dreams come true. Ski.com has been working closely with select lodging suppliers to arrange for long-term lodging perfect for skiers and riders who want to work slopeside this winter. And whether your extended stay is two weeks or two months, we can also get you set up with the right ski pass, seasonal equipment rentals and anything else you need to WFH like a local.
> 
> Since you’re a skier or rider, we are confident you’ve dreamed of spending a season in ski country. With many schools and employers going remote, the time is now to book an extended stay at one of Ski.com’s world-class ski resorts. In addition to lodging ranging from one night to one ski season, our experts can find the perfect season pass, seasonal ski rentals, and whatever else you need to make your long-term rental feel like home._


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## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> re: "the cdc quietly drops mandatory14-day quarantine after traveling"
> seems the cdc no longer recommends that travelers quarantine after arriving in areas with high covid cases.
> 
> they do recommend following local restrictions while traveling.
> ...



Strikes me as total Trump bullshit.


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## snoseek (Aug 27, 2020)

Pulled trigger yesterday on epic veteran. Was 506 after the discount code they sent earlier this summer to lure me back. I'm located in nh and within a reasonable day trip toall the new england places. I mostly ski midweek. I'm feeling fairly safe about my purchase. As long as things dont go bonkers over winter I'm hoping to get 60 plus days this winter. I may hedge with indy pass as well. Or just some saddleback days.

Honestly the more I read into vails plan the more I think it's a reasonable response. I would probably be more hesitant as a weekend skier for sure but at least some sorta plan is in place. You can bet other areas will follow or risk being an utter shtshow this winter


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## Edd (Aug 27, 2020)

On Wildcats’s Instagram page, there’s a ton of whiny bitches. I could not stand dealing with these people. Mt Snow must be exponentially worse.


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## snoseek (Aug 28, 2020)

Double post


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## snoseek (Aug 28, 2020)

Edd said:


> On Wildcats’s Instagram page, there’s a ton of whiny bitches. I could not stand dealing with these people. Mt Snow must be exponentially worse.



Well if enough people bail maybe it will be a good winter after all. Maybe mount snow will actually be skiable on a weekend if you can get in.


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## mbedle (Aug 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Well if enough people bail maybe it will be a good winter after all. Maybe mount snow will actually be skiable on a weekend if you can get in.



YES, YES, YES..... It will be a blessing in disguise.


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## icecoast1 (Aug 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Well if enough people bail maybe it will be a good winter after all. Maybe mount snow will actually be skiable on a weekend if you can get in.




I doubt that, given its proximitely to major cities and increased traffic in recent years, one can only hope though


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2020)

...


snoseek said:


> if you can get in.


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## Newpylong (Aug 28, 2020)

Edd said:


> On Wildcats’s Instagram page, there’s a ton of whiny bitches. I could not stand dealing with these people. Mt Snow must be exponentially worse.



#FirstWorldProblems


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## drjeff (Aug 28, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Well if enough people bail maybe it will be a good winter after all. Maybe mount snow will actually be skiable on a weekend if you can get in.



I think that much of that will have to do with what they set their maximum number of reservations per day at. If it's a relatively low percentage, then even with the lift riding limitations, then it could be a good thing for those who have a reservation that day.

If it's close to whatever they feel "full capacity" is, then it could be very similar to the crowding that has certainly been present in increasing numbers the last few seasons


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2020)

It will be interesting to see how well built out Vail's IT systems are to manage this program.  Wildcat stated on their FB page that you can't make reservations to multiple mountains.   This was in response to someone asking if they could reserve Wildcat in the morning and Attitash in the afternoon.  I've done that plan several times over the years.  Start at Wildcat until their terrain gets skied off and head to Attitash in the afternoon.  Or a more likely scenario is I show up to Wildcat, that quad goes on windhold after a couple of hours, so I head down to lower elevation Attitash where the lifts are all spinning. 

I'm wondering if it's just policy to not allow multiple mountain reservations or if they will deactivate your pass for the day at all mountains except for the one you made a reservation at.  

I'm also curious what happens when someone just shows up and walks straight to the lift.  Will your pass be deactivated and then the lifty tells you you can't ride the lift?  That could make for some very ugly conversations.  

Vail better hope their IT systems are up to the task.  In the very early days of the virus, I frequently used Hannaford's To Go service to buy groceries.  On a few occasions, the system got overloaded with requests and the webpage would crash.


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## MikeDeJ (Aug 28, 2020)

As a Mt snow regular skiing 40-50 times a year (at mt snow plus a few other vt areas) I am beginning to think about turning my Epic pass in and going IKON, waiting to see what IKON's (strattons) plan is.  My wife and I hiked the mt snow in July (and a few more times)and stopped at the Bullwheel for a beer and lunch etc, we knew it would be limited.  Masks required which is good. One premade wrap, canned beer no mixed drinks.  One way in one way out, if you where on the deck and had to use bathroom it was outside around the building to the bathroom, go outside around the building again and back up.  Stupid. Is some how it a health risk to make a mixed drink behind the plex, you have to open the beer or make a sandwich???  They had 5 employees on to do this more than anytime in the past?? I really dont care about any of that but I cant even image how restrictive this winter will be.  I only stop for a beer when I ski every other day or so, so the bar does not really matter in the winter but really the whole summer ops was depressing.

The next day at Stratton I downhill mtn biked for the day felt safe on the lift and at base and had a real lunch at the base.  Stratton did a great job distancing, making guests safe, employees safe and not making it feel like a prison.  These are different times i get it, but there are ways to do things and still make them enjoyable.  

I dont go in the lodge that much when i ski, I boot up in the car and go for it. But I will end up in the lodge at some point and want to feel safe and comfortable.  I also never ski Saturdays.  From what I have seen Stratton, IKON, has done a better handling this then Mt snow, at least for the summer.  Vails letter was good but has me worried at the same time that they may overreact in some areas and not correct them based on science like for there summer ops and the fact they fell off the face of the earth for 3 months with no communication.  I really worry about the ski season getting shut down but I feel what happens in the town is even more important than the area, that is where the we need to be really careful.

And trust me I will be happy and appreciative to ski anywhere in the middle of a pandemic.   Just a quick opinion.


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## drjeff (Aug 28, 2020)

With the amount of geographic overlap between the states that Epic and Ikon have resorts in, and more importantly the fact that there are multiple states, and those state department of health, where they both operate resorts in, I would be shocked if we don't hear some very similar, if not identical plan, put out there by IKON very soon.

The reality is that what EPIC put forth, seems to address the concerns when it comes to crowd management and indoor dining/building use that many states and their respective department of public health's have concern over. If IKON doesn't do something similar, and then the state has an issue with their operations, then mid season they're going to have to adjust, and retrain their staff and guests, which is likely far greater of a challenge then to start the season with a plan in place.

Like the regulations or not that the resorts have to operate under, those rules and regulations that the various states have put out there are what they have to abide by in this current COVID-19 era. I am guessing that both from a ski area management/operations standpoint as well as a guest usage perspective, having a plan in place from Day 1 of the season that *should* allow them to have a normal length season is the better way to go.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 28, 2020)

MikeDeJ said:


> * Stupid. Is some how it a health risk to make a mixed drink behind the plex, you have to open the beer or make a sandwich???*



I hear stories like this & see examples of other similar nonsense weekly, and each time I think:

1) Is the business doing this just to make it "look" like they're "safe" even though they know it's completely meaningless?

2) Is the business doing this because they genuinely aren't aware of recent scientific knowledge advances related to COVID19?

And I never know the answer.  But it puzzles me each time as I wonder.


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## 1dog (Sep 1, 2020)

Bit of both I think. Wear a mask that doesn't really stop Covid sized molecules 'cause it makes people feel better. If any of my businesses didn't follow ( and exceed) state and local protocols, we have enough customers and a few employees who would complain, or worse, call the media. We've already been outed by an employee to the local boards of health. When we called and they reviewed our protocols, they were impressed and said ' we get a few every day, because some employees just don't wanna go back to work.' Amazing.


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## tnt1234 (Sep 1, 2020)

1dog said:


> Bit of both I think. Wear a mask that doesn't really stop Covid sized molecules 'cause it makes people feel better. If any of my businesses didn't follow ( and exceed) state and local protocols, we have enough customers and a few employees who would complain, or worse, call the media. We've already been outed by an employee to the local boards of health. When we called and they reviewed our protocols, they were impressed and said ' we get a few every day, because some employees just don't wanna go back to work.' Amazing.



Masks are proving very effective because they stop the droplets of moisture which carry the virus from leaving the infected persons mouth.  

Least effective is an infected person and uninfected person, no mask.
Next best is infected no mask, uninfected, mask.
Better is Infected mask, uninfected no mask.
Best is both masked.

None is perfect, but the research clearly shows masks have been instrumental in slowing the spread of Covid.


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## chuckstah (Sep 1, 2020)

I was at a restaurant/bar in MA a couple of days ago to pickup takeout. I went to the bar for a beer while waiting. They had tables for 2 setup  along the bar per MA protocol. When I ordered a beer the bartender had to walk all the way around the bar and out onto the floor to serve me the beer instead of handing it to me from 3 feet away.  This didn't seem to make any sense as there was much more movement and contact than needed.  I wish they could simplify rules to ones that are logical, but I don't see it happening. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## tnt1234 (Sep 1, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> I was at a restaurant/bar in MA a couple of days ago to pickup takeout. I went to the bar for a beer while waiting. They had tables for 2 setup  along the bar per MA protocol. When I ordered a beer the bartender had to walk all the way around the bar and out onto the floor to serve me the beer instead of handing it to me from 3 feet away.  This didn't seem to make any sense as there was much more movement and contact than needed.  I wish they could simplify rules to ones that are logical, but I don't see it happening.
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



It's definitely a learning curve situation for sure.

I can't really fathom the logic of making the bartender do all that.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 1, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> Masks are proving very effective because they stop the droplets of moisture which carry the virus from leaving the infected persons mouth.
> 
> Least effective is an infected person and uninfected person, no mask.
> Next best is infected no mask, uninfected, mask.
> ...



We think.  

As for the "research", I think you'd be shocked at just how lacking it actually is versus what you've been told.


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## kbroderick (Sep 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> We think.
> 
> As for the "research", I think you'd be shocked at just how lacking it actually is versus what you've been told.


Yes, it's very much a preponderance of the available evidence, not proof, but there's minimal downside to wearing masks, so even if the net effect is a small decrease in replication numbers, why not just do it?

If not for the ethical issues, it would be easy to test--put one contagious and seven uninfected people in a small room with minimal airflow for, say, 20 minutes, with the uninfected having a variety of masks (from nothing, buffs, surgical and N95). Repeat a few times with different people, isolate everyone for 14 days afterwards with daily testing, and see what you get. But, as I said, that's not really ethical with a disease that can be fatal, even if you test with politicians.


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> We think.
> 
> As for the "research", I think you'd be shocked at just how lacking it actually is versus what you've been told.



That's not true. There is a ton of evidence that masks are effective at limiting the transmission of COVID.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Yes, it's very much a preponderance of the available evidence, not proof, but there's minimal downside to wearing masks, so even if the net effect is a small decrease in replication numbers, *why not just do it?*



I agree.  I was the one early-on saying we should wear masks like many Asian nations, but my point is there's very little actual research backing it up at this point.   I've even seen a study which presents a brilliantly simple & plausible ulterior reason why those Asian nations fared better that had nothing to do with masks, which was rather intriguing.  But yes, I do agree with mask use.  



tnt1234 said:


> *That's not true.* There is a ton of evidence that masks are effective at limiting the transmission of COVID.



It is 100% true.  Again, I agree with mask use, my point is, you're confusing what you're "hearing" on TV with actual scientific proof, which is in fact, quite lacking.  What you're hearing is anecdotal evidence, like the nail parlor with the two COVID19+ techs that didn't spread the virus to any of their clients who agreed to contact tracing (those who refuse contact tracing are a-holes IMO, but I digress).   

At the end of the day, 3 years from now when all the data are fully studied & statistically digested, will I be surprised if masks weren't effective at preventing COVID19 transmission?   Yes.   Will I be shocked if masks weren't effective at preventing COVID19 transmission?  No.   I've seen far too many examples of correlation not equaling causation in my career to be shocked.


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 2, 2020)

Well, I don't know...when I google it, I see a bunch of studies....

But I get your point.  I'm pretty confident that masks make a difference.  Everything from common sense to the cover infection trends in areas with and without mask mandates points to it.  Along with the studies I see on my google machine.


----------



## skef (Sep 3, 2020)

COVID 2020-21 Operations Round Up #1


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## tnt1234 (Sep 4, 2020)

skef said:


> COVID 2020-21 Operations Round Up #1



I wonder what they mean by facemarks outside?  Are balaclava's or ski face masks acceptable?  I don't believe they are nearly as effective.  But I'm trying to imagine putting my cloth mask on at the end of a run to stand in the lift line...mittens off, helmet off, mask on...

I'll do whatever they ask, and appreciate the effort to stay safe and open.  I'm just wondering....


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 4, 2020)

I believe a standard ski face covering will be acceptable. as long as it is truly a covering.  Some actually have holes in them like the neoprene masks I've seen.

I've secured some buffs for this winter, as I typically don't wear a face covering when I ski unless its 15 or colder.  That's what facial hair is for


----------



## mister moose (Sep 4, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> I wonder what they mean by facemarks outside?





jimmywilson69 said:


> I believe a standard ski face covering will be acceptable. as long as it is truly a covering.  Some actually have holes in them like the neoprene masks I've seen.


What about those masks that have the exhale valve right in the front?  I cringe every time I see those.


----------



## zoomzoom (Sep 4, 2020)

cloth facial coverings / masks are intended to protect others, to some degree.  
N95 masks (with exhaust port in front) are intended to protect the user.  

mask effectiveness, by type
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 4, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> cloth facial coverings / masks are intended to protect others, to some degree.
> N95 masks (with exhaust port in front) are intended to protect the user.
> 
> mask effectiveness, by type
> https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449




Understood.  But where do ski face masks and neck gators fall into the mix?  I know buffs are considered way less effective at protecting others than close masks.


----------



## machski (Sep 4, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> Understood.  But where do ski face masks and neck gators fall into the mix?  I know buffs are considered way less effective at protecting others than close masks.


But buffs check the box, no cloth mask is silver bullet here.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> cloth facial coverings / masks are *intended to protect others*, to some degree.



And if you can tell me with a scientifically valid reason why they dont also protect the wearer, I'm all ears!


----------



## drjeff (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> And if you can tell me with a scientifically valid reason why they dont also protect the wearer, I'm all ears!


I'm ears as well.... 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## zoomzoom (Sep 5, 2020)

never said they don't protect the wearer, i posted the intended use.

i took a look the summary of operating plans provided by "newski england industry" link provided above, and they report "face masks" are required at every resort listed.  they have it wrong, with some resorts requiring face coverings not masks.  big difference, and surprised they missed that important distinction.  

tnt1234, to answer your question "Are balaclava's or ski face masks acceptable?"the best thing to do would be to not trust opinions you found on the 'net, and simply call the resort.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 5, 2020)

If the experience my wife and I had at Mount Snow this morning is indicative of things to come this season, get ready for some seriously militant mask police patrolling!!

My wife and I went for a walk from our condo down to the main base area and back this morning. It was about 8:30 when we got to the main base area, lifts weren't running yet, it was empty. As we're walking out towards the parking lot, there was an employee walking in who starts aggressively pointing at his mask (my wife and I didn't have masks on during our walk this morning) and tells us as we pass by him about 15 feet away on the other side of the road that "mask use is MANDATORY at all times on campus"..... 

Now granted, there is no signage noting this currently as you head onto the Mount Snow property.

I do wear a mask when I am out and about. Never even crossed my mind as my wife and I headed out for our walk this morning. There's going to be plenty of customer service complaints I'm guessing this year about this topic for sure!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 5, 2020)

drjeff said:


> As we're walking out towards the parking lot, there was an employee walking in who starts aggressively pointing at his mask (my wife and I didn't have masks on during our walk this morning) and tells us as we pass by him about 15 feet away on the other side of the road that "mask use is MANDATORY at all times on campus".....



This is in the wide-open outdoors without any crowds?


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## drjeff (Sep 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is in the wide-open outdoors without any crowds?


Yup. Just my wife and I and the one employee in a parking lot roughly the size of a football field

And during the roughly 45 minute walk my wife and I took, that employee was literally the only person we saw who wasn't in a car

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Sep 5, 2020)

This incident paints a very bad precedent in Maine for ski season.  Janet Mills better come to her senses.  This is just ridiculous:

https://www.necn.com/news/coronavir...ason-after-exceeding-capacity-limits/2318206/

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## machski (Sep 5, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Yup. Just my wife and I and the one employee in a parking lot roughly the size of a football field
> 
> And during the roughly 45 minute walk my wife and I took, that employee was literally the only person we saw who wasn't in a car
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


Sounds like masks on slopes at Vail resorts may actually be required beyond just the lifts, lift kit was and indoors?  That should put Vail out of business 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 5, 2020)

machski said:


> This incident paints a very bad precedent in Maine for ski season.  Janet Mills better come to her senses.  This is just ridiculous:
> 
> https://www.necn.com/news/coronavir...ason-after-exceeding-capacity-limits/2318206/
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



 That's hardly her first crazy decision.  I never heard of that governor before COVID19, but she seems tyrannical.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's hardly her first crazy decision.  I never heard of that governor before COVID19, but she seems tyrannical.



When the Legislature finally re-convenes, they are expected to sharply rein-in her future "Emergency Powers". Many can't wait to vote her out.


----------



## slatham (Sep 6, 2020)

drjeff said:


> If the experience my wife and I had at Mount Snow this morning is indicative of things to come this season, get ready for some seriously militant mask police patrolling!!
> 
> My wife and I went for a walk from our condo down to the main base area and back this morning. It was about 8:30 when we got to the main base area, lifts weren't running yet, it was empty. As we're walking out towards the parking lot, there was an employee walking in who starts aggressively pointing at his mask (my wife and I didn't have masks on during our walk this morning) and tells us as we pass by him about 15 feet away on the other side of the road that "mask use is MANDATORY at all times on campus".....
> 
> ...



Don't put it past Vail to mandate employees remind all visitors of the rules regardless of the situation, and have no ability to think for themselves given the situation. If you are "on campus", and masks are required, they must tell you to wear a mask.


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## NYDB (Sep 8, 2020)

For the first time,  I am really starting to think I may be opting out ( or be forced to by travel restrictions) of this season.  When Covid 2.0 blows up mid November, we will be back to the same shutdown, with enough restrictions to limit travel for skiing .   I used to think another shutdown was impossible, but cases might blow up so big the state governments feel it is their only option to keep hospitalizations and deaths down.

The best chance for skiing may be early season before the thanksgiving holiday.  And I'm not going to burn a whole years worth of IKON on 4 or 5 wrod days.  

I know my county in NY will still be under restrictions for VT travel (even if my town and surrounding towns have very few new cases, I am lumped in with much more dense western areas) , and I am not going to flout the law.  Or drop $1,200 for covid tests for family each time I want to go skiing.


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## urungus (Sep 8, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> For the first time,  I am really starting to think I may be opting out ( or be forced to by travel restrictions) of this season.  When Covid 2.0 blows up mid November, we will be back to the same shutdown, with enough restrictions to limit travel for skiing .   I used to think another shutdown was impossible, but cases might blow up so big the state governments feel it is their only option to keep hospitalizations and deaths down.
> 
> The best chance for skiing may be early season before the thanksgiving holiday.  And I'm not going to burn a whole years worth of IKON on 4 or 5 wrod days.
> 
> I know my county in NY will still be under restrictions for VT travel (even if my town and surrounding towns have very few new cases, I am lumped in with much more dense western areas) , and I am not going to flout the law.  Or drop $1,200 for covid tests for family each time I want to go skiing.



You could still hit Whiteface, Gore, Hunter, Windham, Platty, Belleayre ...


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 8, 2020)

machski said:


> This incident paints a very bad precedent in Maine for ski season.  Janet Mills better come to her senses.  This is just ridiculous:
> 
> https://www.necn.com/news/coronavir...ason-after-exceeding-capacity-limits/2318206/
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



"According to park operations staff, Aquaboggan opened on July 1, operating at 25% capacity or up to 1,500 people." *So, they were claiming their normal capacity is 6,000 people?!? *
This place is not a quarter the size of FunTown down the road, it is an even smaller park with some waterslides and a wave pool.
http://www.aquaboggan.com/parkmap
Even people who went there were complaining about the large numbers (when they only had at most 1,200) and also lack of distancing. According to the press articles they were warned many times and the state even tried to work with them before being told to limit it to 100.


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## NYDB (Sep 8, 2020)

urungus said:


> You could still hit Whiteface, Gore, Hunter, Windham, Platty, Belleayre ...



I have a house in VT so I am usually there. Staying at hotels to ski at NY areas seems crazy with covid.  

 I could just stay up at the Vt house this winter if kids go full remote with school.  Who knows.


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## ss20 (Sep 8, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> For the first time,  I am really starting to think I may be opting out ( or be forced to by travel restrictions) of this season.  When Covid 2.0 blows up mid November, we will be back to the same shutdown, with enough restrictions to limit travel for skiing .   I used to think another shutdown was impossible, but cases might blow up so big the state governments feel it is their only option to keep hospitalizations and deaths down.



You're getting ahead of yourself...

Much of the country has been back to school the past two weeks...aren't we supposed to see an "explosion" in cases right about now?  Daily new cases the past two days have been the lowest since mid-June.  I'm not trying to be optimistic or snarky or a conspiracy theorist here...but I've yet to see any prediction with this virus come true.  According to Bill Gate's model circa mid-April we were supposed to be done with Covid last month lol.


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## JimG. (Sep 8, 2020)

urungus said:


> You could still hit Whiteface, Gore, Hunter, Windham, Platty, Belleayre ...



Except for Windham? none of those hills are on IKON.


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## machski (Sep 8, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> "According to park operations staff, Aquaboggan opened on July 1, operating at 25% capacity or up to 1,500 people." *So, they were claiming their normal capacity is 6,000 people?!? *
> This place is not a quarter the size of FunTown down the road, it is an even smaller park with some waterslides and a wave pool.
> http://www.aquaboggan.com/parkmap
> Even people who went there were complaining about the large numbers (when they only had at most 1,200) and also lack of distancing. According to the press articles they were warned many times and the state even tried to work with them before being told to limit it to 100.


We'll, I would assume their 25% plan was approved by someone in government at some level.  So there's that. 

Regardless, this sets a precedent in state.  Local authorities get pissed at lift lines or crowds at a base, resort gets cut to 100 guests/day.  Not a good precedent to have been set.  And don't say it can't happen at a ski resort, it absolutely could.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 8, 2020)

ss20 said:


> According to Bill Gate's model circa mid-April we were supposed to be done with Covid last month lol.




Which is precisely the same model scaring the crap out of people predicting COVID19 explodes in mid-November.


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## ss20 (Sep 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Which is precisely the same model scaring the crap out of people predicting COVID19 explodes in mid-November.



That's kinda funny if it's true.  I haven't paid an once of attention to the future regarding this virus.  Just gotta take things day-by-day.

It's another day with very low new cases.  7-day rolling average of new cases back to late June levels.


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## tnt1234 (Sep 8, 2020)

ss20 said:


> You're getting ahead of yourself...
> 
> Much of the country has been back to school the past two weeks...aren't we supposed to see an "explosion" in cases right about now?  Daily new cases the past two days have been the lowest since mid-June.  I'm not trying to be optimistic or snarky or a conspiracy theorist here...but I've yet to see any prediction with this virus come true.  According to Bill Gate's model circa mid-April we were supposed to be done with Covid last month lol.



Plenty of colleges are having explosions on campus.  But thankfully they are not sending teh kids home to infect their households and communities.  They seem to be doing a good job quarantining.  

Grade schools might be okay... I think we just have to wait and see....


----------



## tnt1234 (Sep 8, 2020)

ss20 said:


> That's kinda funny if it's true.  I haven't paid an once of attention to the future regarding this virus.  Just gotta take things day-by-day.
> 
> It's another day with very low new cases.  7-day rolling average of new cases back to late June levels.




all great news.  let's keep it up!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 8, 2020)

ss20 said:


> *That's kinda funny if it's true. * I haven't paid an once of attention to the future regarding this virus.  Just gotta take things day-by-day.  It's another day with very low new cases.  7-day rolling average of new cases back to late June levels.



Has it going higher than even back in April.







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## NYDB (Sep 9, 2020)

ss20 said:


> You're getting ahead of yourself...
> 
> Much of the country has been back to school the past two weeks...aren't we supposed to see an "explosion" in cases right about now?  Daily new cases the past two days have been the lowest since mid-June.  I'm not trying to be optimistic or snarky or a conspiracy theorist here...but I've yet to see any prediction with this virus come true.  According to Bill Gate's model circa mid-April we were supposed to be done with Covid last month lol.



Yeah, I mean I (or anyone) really doesn't know. If covid ends up being a big nothingburger this fall/winter or there is a widely distributed and available vaccine I will jumping for joy.  I guess all this fake news I read must be bringing me down.  

I want to be flying to Snowbird and Jackson Hole this winter and hitting all the IKON VT I can eat in between my Magic Days.  That would be sweet.  But it just doesn't seem like we have put in the effort as a nation to make that a reality.  The northeast is looking good, but many other regions are not.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Sep 9, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Yeah, I mean I (or anyone) really doesn't know. If covid ends up being a big nothingburger this fall/winter or there is a widely distributed and available vaccine I will jumping for joy.  I guess all this fake news I read must be bringing me down..



I can't wait for the day when our news sources are trusted again and not blasted by people when the news is now what they want to hear...


----------



## drjeff (Sep 9, 2020)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I can't wait for the day when our news sources are trusted again and not blasted by people when the news is now what they want to hear...



I sincerely hope that we can get back to the day when news sources, and the public's belief about news sources, is all about the who's, what's, where's, when's, why's and how's that it once was, verses what it is now.

Sadly, I am not so certain that can happen, as the group think (and react against those who subscribe to a different group think view) mentality, over individual critical thinking skills have certainly shifted towards the group think/react side of the pendulum


----------



## EPB (Sep 9, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> But it just doesn't seem like we have put in the effort as a nation to make that a reality.  The northeast is looking good, but many other regions are not.



What do you mean by this? The northeast was hit hardest upfront and (hopefully) we are best positioned going forward because of how hard we got hit already. We also did a terrible job protecting the elderly which is a key driving force behind the off-the-charts death/million figures in the Northeast vs. the rest of the country (and really the rest of the world). Presumably you're well aware that the average age of a COVID-19 victim approximates the US life expectancy and that your governor refuses to release nursing home death data because it would make him look bad (if it would make him look good, we'd have it, of course). The response across the Hudson was no more effective.

Granted, we got inundated especially bad due to the amount of international travel coming in and out of the northeast that doesn't make it to middle America. Greater NYC is also the most densely populated place in the US. This put us at a decided disadvantage vis-a-vis Salt Lake City, for example. That said, I have a hard time understanding how you get to the conclusion that 'greater NYC=good and UT/WY=bad given' there is no evidence-based reason to feel this way, just emotionally-based ones.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 9, 2020)

Funky_Catskills said:


> I can't wait for the day when our news sources are trusted again and not blasted by people when the news is now what they want to hear...



Would be nice if news sources actually just reported the news instead of trying to put some sort of spin on every single little thing.


----------



## EPB (Sep 9, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Would be nice if news sources actually just reported the news instead of trying to put some sort of spin on every single little thing.


Agreed. Credibility has to be continually earned. I really hope it soon gets damaged to the point that a mea culpa is on the horizon.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mister moose (Sep 9, 2020)

One factor in news is the shift to profitability.  Broadcast news used to be like weather, time, traffic, other public announcements.  CNN 24 hour news channel was one of the changes that ushered in news as a revenue source.  That has resulted in more competition, but what we got looks a lot more like tabloid than investigative reporting. Even weather, while not pushing an agenda like wet or dry or hot or cold, delivers any storm forecast with a YOU MUST WATCH ALL UPDATES urgency.  It seems to be about the race for eyeballs, not accuracy.

Not only news has adopted tabloid entertainment,  entertainment shows have now adopted "news".  Late night shows, once consisting of TV star interviews, comedy monologues, and sketches, now almost universally start off with 15 minutes of "news" commentary.  Shows like "The View" fill slots formerly occupied by soap operas.  Morning news shows have expanded into marathons.  Where as the message of an episode of Andy Griffith or Dick Van Dyke was mostly humor with a little relationship drama, now an hour of evening programming contains messages of societal agendas.

It's a different landscape.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Sep 9, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Would be nice if news sources actually just reported the news instead of trying to put some sort of spin on every single little thing.



My major was journalism... I get it...  But there ARE news sources that don't editorialize...


----------



## zyk (Sep 9, 2020)

ss20 said:


> You're getting ahead of yourself...
> 
> Much of the country has been back to school the past two weeks...aren't we supposed to see an "explosion" in cases right about now?  Daily new cases the past two days have been the lowest since mid-June.  I'm not trying to be optimistic or snarky or a conspiracy theorist here...but I've yet to see any prediction with this virus come true.  According to Bill Gate's model circa mid-April we were supposed to be done with Covid last month lol.



SUNY Oneonta...  Over 500 new cases since the students went back.  School closed,  businesses closed...  Maybe it was just handled poorly and we won't see this elsewhere.


----------



## NYDB (Sep 9, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> What do you mean by this? The northeast was hit hardest upfront and (hopefully) we are best positioned going forward because of how hard we got hit already. We also did a terrible job protecting the elderly which is a key driving force behind the off-the-charts death/million figures in the Northeast vs. the rest of the country (and really the rest of the world). Presumably you're well aware that the average age of a COVID-19 victim approximates the US life expectancy and that your governor refuses to release nursing home death data because it would make him look bad (if it would make him look good, we'd have it, of course). The response across the Hudson was no more effective.
> 
> Granted, we got inundated especially bad due to the amount of international travel coming in and out of the northeast that doesn't make it to middle America. Greater NYC is also the most densely populated place in the US. This put us at a decided disadvantage vis-a-vis Salt Lake City, for example. That said, I have a hard time understanding how you get to the conclusion that 'greater NYC=good and UT/WY=bad given' there is no evidence-based reason to feel this way, just emotionally-based ones.



Active cases in the northeast right now are pretty low, even though NY and MA are on the uptick.  Southeast, midwest, Texas, CA are pretty high.  Look at the link from CDC active cases for past 7 days.  NY is 27th highest.  Here is active cases per 100,000 from another site.  Both sites require you to select the correct tab (CDC - cases the last 7 days and arcgis active cases per 100,000 people)  

I didn't say anything about UT/WY cases so I'm not sure what you are talking about there.  

I will add that since active cases are relatively low in the northeast right now, I have noticed a bit a slacking with regard to social distancing and mask wearing.  Kind of the opposite of what was happening in the spring. Hope it doesn't bite us in the fanny come ski season.


----------



## EPB (Sep 9, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Active cases in the northeast right now are pretty low, even though NY and MA are on the uptick.  Southeast, midwest, Texas, CA are pretty high.  Look at the link from CDC active cases for past 7 days.  NY is 27th highest.  Here is active cases per 100,000 from another site.  Both sites require you to select the correct tab (CDC - cases the last 7 days and arcgis active cases per 100,000 people)
> 
> I didn't say anything about UT/WY cases so I'm not sure what you are talking about there.
> 
> I will add that since active cases are relatively low in the northeast right now, I have noticed a bit a slacking with regard to social distancing and mask wearing.  Kind of the opposite of what was happening in the spring. Hope it doesn't bite us in the fanny come ski season.



I see where you're coming from. As I understand, we're doing quite well in terms of active cases. Hopefully, we're now somewhat insulated given the extent to which the disease burned through the population in the spring/summer, but that's just my naive observation and nothing provable.

Regarding UT/WY, you mentioned wanting to fly to Snowbird and Jackson Hole. It provoked me to look into how they have fared, and the numbers are startling. UT ranks 49th in deaths/capita (among states and DC) in the US and WY ranks 44th. That's good for 3rd best and 8th best, respectively. NJ, NY, MA, CT rank 1-4 in that order in deaths/capita with RI is 6th, per statista https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state. If any of those states were their own country, they would rank dead last in death/million in the entire world https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/ (note: state numbers are per 100,000 and country numbers are by 1,000,000, so they need to be adjusted by a factor of 10).

All this said, I think I misinterpreted what you said regarding people "putting in the effort as a nation". I assumed you meant that non northeast states are doing something wrong, but it seems you mean general complacency. I have also noticed this in Morristown, NJ, of all places. Hopefully we're through the worst given we experienced arguably the worst first wave in the world (due to factors that were and weren't our fault), but we'll see... Good luck getting up to your place in VT, though. Hopefully the worst is behind us.


----------



## Funky_Catskills (Sep 9, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Active cases in the northeast right now are pretty low, even though NY and MA are on the uptick.



I don't think New York is not on a real uptick...    
My county(Greene) is down to like 3 cases.


----------



## kbroderick (Sep 9, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Would be nice if news sources actually just reported the news instead of trying to put some sort of spin on every single little thing.



The idea that the news has ever been spin-free is a myth. Take the editorials out of the equation, and you still have editorial discretion as to what facts you report (and who you quote as "experts" responding to the facts as reported).

With that said, I haven't had cable in years, and it wasn't until a couple of times recently where either my parents or the in-laws had their choice of 24-hour "news" networks on that I realized how bad those things are. The actual nightly news is less spun but the segments seem targeted to the attention span of a fruit fly; the entertainment / editorial / dumpster fire content on the 24-hour channels makes my head hurt. I agree with the notion that critical thinking has gone out the window, and I think the soundbite-oriented nature of video news makes it worse, as does a focus on profits—where stirring the pot and drawing attention gets more eyeballs than a more-expensive, more-balanced investigative reporting show would.

Every time I slag one news channel, my wife points out the other is just as bad. My response is that it may be true, and that she should read a damn (online) newspaper (pick your slant—there are papers slanted in both directions that still do real journalism). Yes, it takes longer, because you can't adequately understand most real-world based on a 30-second soundbite.


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## EPB (Sep 9, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> The idea that the news has ever been spin-free is a myth. Take the editorials out of the equation, and you still have editorial discretion as to what facts you report (and who you quote as "experts" responding to the facts as reported).
> 
> With that said, I haven't had cable in years, and it wasn't until a couple of times recently where either my parents or the in-laws had their choice of 24-hour "news" networks on that I realized how bad those things are. The actual nightly news is less spun but the segments seem targeted to the attention span of a fruit fly; the entertainment / editorial / dumpster fire content on the 24-hour channels makes my head hurt. I agree with the notion that critical thinking has gone out the window, and I think the soundbite-oriented nature of video news makes it worse, as does a focus on profits—where stirring the pot and drawing attention gets more eyeballs than a more-expensive, more-balanced investigative reporting show would.
> 
> Every time I slag one news channel, my wife points out the other is just as bad. My response is that it may be true, and that she should read a damn (online) newspaper (pick your slant—there are papers slanted in both directions that still do real journalism). Yes, it takes longer, because you can't adequately understand most real-world based on a 30-second soundbite.


This is exactly right. 

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Edd (Sep 9, 2020)

I find PBS Newshour to be relatively lucid, BS free nightly TV reporting. 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## mister moose (Sep 9, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> The idea that the news has ever been spin-free is a myth. Take the editorials out of the equation, and you still have editorial discretion as to what facts you report (and who you quote as "experts" responding to the facts as reported).





kbroderick said:


> The actual nightly news is less spun



One thing I've been noticing as a more subliminal bias is sequence and depth bias.  For example, 

"The US Ski Area Consortium reported to day that tele-skiers are responsible for most trash and litter on the mountain.  Trash commitee chair Pete Twintips said in an interview that tele-skiers wear a backpack more often, eat on lifts, drop their trash and have longer hair, and travel in menacing looking groups.  "I've personally seen a tele-skier throw a Bud Lite can off the lift", said Twintips.   Joe Freeheel, a tele-ski maunfacturer representative, said the accusations were unfounded."

They lead with one point of view, give it 2 minutes, and then finish with a quick "they disagreed" closer.  




kbroderick said:


> Every time I slag one news channel, my wife points out the other is just as bad. My response is that it may be true, and that she should read a damn (online) newspaper (pick your slant—there are papers slanted in both directions that still do real journalism). Yes, it takes longer, because you can't adequately understand most real-world based on a 30-second soundbite.



If you wait for 3-5 days give or take, many news stories get more accurate.  Forget the rush to lead headline, what's the story become in a week?  Not only should you widen your listening, you should widen your time frame.  Frequently you have to hunt for it though, many news stories drop off and any  follow up corrections and further info requires digging.


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## Not Sure (Sep 9, 2020)

The news has always been bias they've just grown  lazy.  So many stories could have been verified with 5 minutes of homework .


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## ss20 (Sep 9, 2020)

Copper playing things conservatively... https://www.coppercolorado.com/culture/blog/all-blogs/20-21-winter-season-update

The big things are opening November 30th (quite late for them) and private lessons only to start the season.  Same old same old about reduced capacity on lifts, gondolas are OK.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *your governor refuses to release nursing home death data because it would make him look bad*



But it's actually far worse than that, they are monkeying with what "counted" as a nursing home death by only counting it as such if you literally died in the nursing home, which is completely absurd.  

  Cuomo's politically correct decision cost many, many, hundreds of lives, perhaps even thousands, we dont know.  This is a huge scandal which I believe will one day come out, and that "one day" is probably "one day" after Cuomo is no longer politically relevant.

https://apnews.com/212ccd87924b6906053703a00514647f


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## skiur (Sep 10, 2020)

*Dear Kenneth,*

 

At our core, we’re all about outdoor adventure – it’s who we are. We seek to inspire and empower the next generation of athletes, create memorable experiences in the mountains, and connect like-minded people in a shared pursuit of adventure. We know that season passholders like you share the same passion for action sports and outdoor recreation. This is why we prioritized summer operations this spring and why, now, we’re finalizing winter operations so we can continue doing what we love with the ones we love in the outdoor space.

Fortunately for us, mountain snow sports take place in the outdoor space naturally distancing skiers and riders. As part of the experience, guests already take cold related precautions – wearing masks, gloves, and goggles – and are spread across open terrain. Here at Killington, we’re particularly well positioned to operate successfully amid a pandemic as the biggest mountain resort in Eastern North America spanning seven distinct mountain areas – eight if you include Pico Mountain – with 28 lifts and nearly 2,000 skiable acres to roam when fully open.

We continue to monitor Covid-19 and, given its dynamic nature, have prepared thorough, adaptable operations plan that are consistent with the Vermont Department of Health and follow the National Ski Areas Association’s Ski Well, Be Well best practices. An important part of our planning includes putting in place assurances of appropriate physical distancing, sanitation and protocols that ensure the health and wellbeing of guests and staff. We are confident in our ability to provide a great ski and ride experience this winter at Killington and Pico. Below are more details on how we plan to operate this winter season with your safety at the forefront of our many tough decisions.

*Projected Opening Day*
No, that is not a typo. Yes, it feels a little unnatural to announce a projected Opening Day at Killington. We pride ourselves on putting in the work early season to get lifts running as soon as possible, but we need ample time to prepare top-to-bottom terrain to ensure proper physical distancing. We’re confident that starting our season with more acreage and lifts open will help guests spread out and maintain an appropriate distance while also providing a higher quality on-snow experience from day one of the season.

Additionally, our early season snowmaking and expansion plan is different than recent years and will focus on getting multiple lifts open and spreading out guests across the resort to facilitate physical distancing. Typically, our stairs leading from North Ridge to Killington Peak provide the connection needed early season when skiing access is not available off Killington Peak, but the stairs will remain closed this season since they don’t allow for physical distancing. This is just one of the many reasons the team at Killington is setting our sights on top-to-bottom skiing from the start.

*As a result, we plan to open for skiing and riding at Killington Resort **November 14**, weather and terrain permitting.* As you can imagine it wasn’t an easy decision; lots of time and effort went into selecting a date based on historical weather data for Killington. We believe November 14 is a realistic date to achieve top-to-bottom skiing and riding with access to multiple base area lifts. That being said, we all know East Coast weather – early season especially – can be challenging and until we can provide the space needed to facilitate physical distancing, we will delay opening. We anticipate being open for Killington Season Pass and Ikon passholders only on opening day and for a period of time as we assess operations and capacity limits. Information about when day ticket holders can access the mountain will be announced at a later date.

As always, we are committed to making snow, having an early season Woodward Mountain Park offering and getting lifts turning, but where we plan to make snow is different from recent seasons. We will concentrate our snowmaking efforts on providing a top-to-bottom route from the K-1 Gondola, in the North Ridge area and on Snowdon Mountain. Snowmaking will begin in the North Ridge area and Killington Peak and stay concentrated in those areas with a plan to expand into Snowdon area as soon as possible. Maintaining snow in these areas will take priority early season and when we feel able to spread our resources, we’ll continue concentrating on upper mountain. This means we don’t plan to offer beginner terrain in the Snowshed or Ramshead areas until mid- to late-December instead of Thanksgiving weekend like we have in the past.

Over at Pico Mountain, our projected opening day is December 19 and expansion plans will focus on giving guests the opportunity to spread out like we’re planning at Killington.

*Resort Access & Parking Reservations*
Throughout the season, we will be limiting the number of guests at the resort in order to facilitate physical distancing. Our primary method for limiting the number of guests will be accomplished by adjusting our ticket and pass product offerings and sales channels as well as limiting the number of tickets we sell on any given day. For example, we don’t plan to host bus groups or offer promotions/3rd party tickets valid on weekends or peak days.

We are also implementing an online parking reservation system for all guests. This means that everyone, including season passholders, will need to let us know they’re coming. Implementing this system proactively will help us track and manage volume and ensure an experience which enables appropriate physical distancing. We plan to share more details on how this will be implemented in the coming weeks. Please be patient and understand our goal is to allow passholders to ski and ride on the days they wish. By adjusting our daily lift ticket sales strategy, we hope to reach this goal. Our size and commitment to opening as much terrain as possible as quickly as possible are also in our favor.

*For day ticket purchasers, all ticket sales will happen in advance which will allow for contactless ticketing either by reloading an existing ONE PASS card or being able to pick up a new ONE PASS card from a ticket kiosk.* We introduced these ticket kiosks last season at select base lodges but are accelerating our roll out of the kiosks at all base lodges for the coming season.

*Early Season Skinning*
I know that our first snowfall is going to get everyone excited for another season on the mountain and you may want to earn your turns before lifts spin, but uphill travel routes will not be open early season. Until we have enough snow coverage to open designated uphill travel routes, skinning is not permitted at Killington and Pico. I’m aware that many pass holders have ignored our closures in the past, but this season, our uphill policy will be strictly enforced and you will be at risk of losing ski privileges if you’re caught on the mountain. If uphill routes are closed, it’s for good reason – such as unmarked hazards, poor coverage or large machinery at work to name a few – and in the best interest of our guests, staff and community first responders.

*Protective Gear*
What we know is that skiing and exploring the great outdoors during this time is one of the safest ways to recreate and we are fortunate that inherent to the ski and ride experience is the wearing protective gear – masks, gloves and goggles.

Our current mask policy in conjunction with the statewide face mask mandate in Vermont that went into effect August 1, 2020 will remain in place this winter so our current mask policy will also stay in place: at the resort masks covering the nose and mouth are required at all times, except when seated while eating or drinking.  I suggest keeping an extra face mask on you in case one is lost or you find your primary face covering getting too uncomfortable after freezing up from the moisture in your breath. I’ve been there; it’s not fun.

*Base Lodges & Food and Beverage*
Current Vermont rules limit capacity in buildings to 50%, including staff, and our operation plans will follow these limits. This means there will be certain changes in base lodges this season. For example, lodges will act more as a ‘warming hut’ for skiers and riders with limited grab n’ go food, new egress/ingress flows and other measures to ensure access to restrooms without affecting the overall capacity, and non-skiers/riders will not have access to lodges. In addition, we will have extra outdoor portable bathrooms available and, with support from our Killington sponsors, we will introduce unique outdoor dining options, add food trucks and have popular trail side venues, including the Jerk Jamaican Mountain Grill and Braut House open on a more regular basis.

I know Killington is known for and proud to deliver a great après experience, but with the need to physically distance and given Vermont's regulations on dining and bars, which require alcohol only be served when seated, at a table, our legendary après won't look the same this year. At this time, our more intimate structures on-mountain like the Ledgewood Yurt and Motor Room Bar will not operate this season.

*Everyone doing everything they can will help us ensure the longevity of the ski season. This means that the new normal for this season at Killington and Pico will be booting up in the parking lot, going straight to the lift and back to your car without ever going inside a lodge.* Boot bags and bags in general will not be permitted in lodges and complimentary bag check will be closed. That being said, I recommend grabbing an extra pair of socks this season, getting a pair of boot heaters (I love mine!), and keeping your boots near the floor heat vents on your way up to the mountain this winter. Plan to operate out of your car like it was a base lodge and pack extra snacks to re-fuel throughout the day. New England winters can be chilly, so we ask that you use the base lodges sparingly and limit your time inside. This will make it more available to everyone that needs it while we work around current capacity restrictions.

*Physical Distancing on Chairlifts and Gondolas*
High capacity chairlifts and closed cabin carriers will be loaded in a way that allows for physical distancing. For example, on the gondola and our high speed, high capacity lifts, guests will have the opportunity to ride with only members of their traveling party, or load at a reduced capacity with other skiers and riders. On our other lifts, we will load at 50% capacity or with members you traveled with. Masks covering the nose and mouth are required at all times in lift lines and while riding lifts.

Physical distancing in lift queues occurs organically due to the length of skis and snowboards and guests will notice additional spacing measures, including extended maze designs, more lateral spacing and increased signage, to further ensure a consistent flow of appropriately spaced traffic.  

*New Killington Resort App, Text Messaging and More*
Our team has been working behind the scenes to develop a new Killington Resort App, which will be available for Apple and Android phones at the beginning of the winter season. A few key features of the app will be real-time lift and trail status, lift wait times and tracking. The tracking feature will allow you to track your ski day, see where you’re at on the map and allow you to see where friends and family are on the mountain. We will also be able to send push notifications with real-time updates and information as needed allowing us to improve communication to guests who are at the resort.

Speaking of improving communications, we’re also rolling out a text messaging platform. We know the likelihood of needing to communicate with guests outside of email and social media is greater than ever this coming season. We promise we won’t bog you down with endless text messages but plan to use it for communicating critical operations updates as needed, important information about upcoming visits and the occasional promotional message such as a season pass deadline reminder. You can opt into text messages today by texting Beast to 64600. Opt-in details for Pico Mountain coming soon. Message and data rates may apply.

We are also implementing new software to enable contactless credit card payments in our food and beverage outlets. We will also be issuing new ONE PASSES to season passholders that will integrate with the new system for discounts. Be on the lookout for an email next week to verify your address for mailing.

*Ski & Snowboard Rental & Snow Sports School Lessons*
We want to provide a great experience this season and that includes having rentals and snow sports programming available. Rentals will be available out of K-1 at the beginning of the season; however, since we plan to operate with intermediate to advanced terrain only early season, lessons won’t be available until mid- to late-December. *Advance reservations will be required for both rentals and lessons. All equipment will be sanitized between guest uses.*

The 20/21 season will begin with private lessons only for related parties at Killington Resort and Pico Mountain. We will offer our Unleashed and 4241 seasonal lesson programs. Ministars, Youth Group Lessons, childcare and our group Learn to Ski & Ride programs will not be offered this season at Killington. We will not offer youth group lessons or childcare at Pico.

*Employee Health Screenings*
All employees will continue to be required to get their temperature checked and submit a daily health screening before arriving to work verifying that they are feeling well and have not been in contact with someone showing symptoms or exposed to Covid-19. If employees are not feeling well, they are required to stay home. We ask that our guests join us in this practice and stay home when experiencing symptoms or feeling unwell. 

*Now What*
As we close out the summer and shift to fall operations, we will continue to refine and adjust our winter plans to ensure the safety and wellbeing of our community, guests and team. While ample snow and the longest season in the east have been signs of success in the past, this season success means facilitating a season of skiing and riding in a socially responsible way. In order to do that, we know we need the cooperation of our local community, guests and employees. We’re all connected.

We thrive in unison, not as individuals. To operate effectively this winter, and the remainder of the summer for that matter, we all need to do our part and follow safety measures to keep ourselves and others healthy. Regardless of what happens to Covid-19 cases in the future, whether they spike or decline locally or around the country, we’re in this for the long game and need to remain consistent with our safety protocol so we may continue to play in the mountains for years to come. So wear a face mask, practice physical distancing, wash your hands often and stay home if you’re not feeling well.

While there is always a competition to open first, we believe winning this year means everyone doing their part to put into place thoughtful plans and follow guidelines and best practices to keep one another safe, so that we may enjoy a full season of skiing and riding. I hope our commitment to maintaining candid communication gives you some comfort in our plans for the upcoming season. We know everyone’s adapting in their own way and we want to make sure you know how we plan to adjust.

If you still have questions we haven’t answered yet, please submit them here.

I look forward to seeing you on the trails.

Mike Solimano 
President & General Manager


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## drjeff (Sep 10, 2020)

skiur said:


> *Dear Kenneth,*
> 
> 
> At our core, we’re all about outdoor adventure – it’s who we are. We seek to inspire and empower the next generation of athletes, create memorable experiences in the mountains, and connect like-minded people in a shared pursuit of adventure. We know that season passholders like you share the same passion for action sports and outdoor recreation. This is why we prioritized summer operations this spring and why, now, we’re finalizing winter operations so we can continue doing what we love with the ones we love in the outdoor space.
> ...



In light of everything, can't say that this really surprises me. Doesn't mean that I am thrilled about it, however the reality is that to operate, they have to make sure that they (and pretty much every other ski area out there this year) are doing their best to ensure that the public health officials, who have the ability to close them down, are happy with what is going on.....


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2020)

Can't really say I'm surprised by anything in Mike's e-mail. I think it is very much in line with what I would have expected. Of course I'm sure there will be some people shocked about items like not opening until mid-November or needing parking reservations.


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## EPB (Sep 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> But it's actually far worse than that, they are monkeying with what "counted" as a nursing home death by only counting it as such if you literally died in the nursing home, which is completely absurd.
> 
> Cuomo's politically correct decision cost many, many, hundreds of lives, perhaps even thousands, we dont know.  This is a huge scandal which I believe will one day come out, and that "one day" is probably "one day" after Cuomo is no longer politically relevant.
> 
> https://apnews.com/212ccd87924b6906053703a00514647f



I don't want to belabor this point too much, but every time that idiot talks about how great he is at handling COVID-19, he invites this upon himself. 

The relevant point to skiing is that when you look at the data, you were about 10x as likely to die from COVID-19 if you lived in the northeast vs. the Rockies (and 2.5-3.5x TX and FL). *We* are the problem. Not the other way around.


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Can't really say I'm surprised by anything in Mike's e-mail. I think it is very much in line with what I would have expected. Of course I'm sure there will be some people shocked about items like not opening until mid-November or needing parking reservations.



The November opening is disappointing, but understandable.  Normally I wait until TTB anyway, I was just really jonesing to ski this October as soon as I could (as I'm sure many people were).  Sounds like they're going with the traditional plan of North Ridge and Snowdon where they're not TTB until November 5-15 anyway.  

The parking reservations seem to be a Powdr thing.  Killington its self has wayyyyy more parking than it needs.  They fit 20-25k people each day for World Cup using their existing lots.


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## 1dog (Sep 10, 2020)

and then theres this:  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html


With liability concerns and probably more concerning public shaming/humiliation via social media, most companies are complying by copying the 'Nike Rule'. Just let everyone know we are on their side and safety is our number one concern. We know the opposite side, those who believe in freedom and liberty of individual choices that should mark a free society, won't speak up and make noise about how they think its up to the individual to be reponsible for their own safety, their own accountabililty.

Nanny State

There is a decent debate on this site. ( the debate under the video)


https://www.citizenfreepress.com/column-1/anesthesiologist-ted-noel-masks-dont-work/



Many of us wear masks to be compliant and in my case, even when not required, I do it to keep others feeling 'safer'. 

Perception really is more powerful than truth in a virtual world it seems. . . .  at least temporarily.

Does anyone really believe limiting capacity to essentially half, won't cause longer lines where skiers/riders aren't social distancing?

2021 economy is headed for collapse if some semblance of economic normalcy isn't restored, and soon.


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2020)

ss20 said:


> The parking reservations seem to be a Powdr thing.  Killington its self has wayyyyy more parking than it needs.  They fit 20-25k people each day for World Cup using their existing lots.



I don't think a concern about running out of parking is why they're doing reservations. They're simply using it as a way to limit skiers in general instead of requiring reservations for skiing itself. They're probably going to have less reservations available than the true number of parking spots. Either they will space cars out intentionally in the lots or simply not use all lots in order to hit whatever number they determine their limit to be.


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2020)

1dog said:


> Does anyone really believe limiting capacity to essentially half, won't cause longer lines where skiers/riders aren't social distancing?



It depends on how resorts measure "half".  Whether that's CCC, lodge capacity, or parking.  Whichever number you choose, it won't be an issue 99% of midweek days and a lot more weekend days than one would think.


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## skef (Sep 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> They're probably going to have less reservations available than the true number of parking spots. Either they will space cars out intentionally in the lots or simply not use all lots in order to hit whatever number they determine their limit to be.


With the "use your car as the lodge" edict, it would make sense to space the cars out -- makes booting up possible while next to another guy doing the same.


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

> KILLINGTON::
> 
> Sorry if this topic has been covered a bunch but I haven’t been on for a while....
> 
> ...


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> KILLINGTON::
> 
> Sorry if this topic has been covered a bunch but I haven’t been on for a while....
> 
> ...




Oops sorry double posted this while trying to fix the other post.  Not sure how to delete.


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> > KILLINGTON::
> >
> > Sorry if this topic has been covered a bunch but I haven’t been on for a while....
> >
> ...


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2020)

JimG. said:


> dlague said:
> 
> 
> > It's the new normal...treat season passholders like crap. Get used to it.
> ...


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It's the new normal...treat season passholders like crap. Get used to it.



No...I think people are reading into this shit way too much and trying to create issues without having all the information. 



> We plan to share more details on how this will be implemented in the coming weeks. Please be patient and understand our goal is to allow passholders to ski and ride on the days they wish. By adjusting our daily lift ticket sales strategy, we hope to reach this goal.



So basically they plan to limit day ticket sales (not give them priority). K knows from historical data how many passholders typically show up on various days. They'll use that data to set limits on how many day tickets are available to be sold for that day. Now is it possible that a passholder could be shut out? Sure...if it happens to be a high demand day where lots of passholders make reservations ahead of time and every available day ticket is sold, then a passholder that decides last minute they want to ski could certainly lose out.

With technology this really shouldn't be difficult to properly manage. Here's an example of how a system "could" ideally work (K hasn't announced specific details so it isn't necessarily the way they plan to do it).

For simplicity, let's assume 100 is the "capacity" for a given day.
Day X typically sees 80 passholders and 20 day ticket skiers. The ski resort initially limits early day ticket sales to 50% of historical day ticket volume (i.e. releases 10 tickets for sale). This allows a "buffer" for passholder reservations in case demand is higher for some reason. If passholder demand on that day via reservations exceeds the 80 number and reaches 90, reservations are cut off unless day tickets were still available. In that case day tickets available automatically decrement by 1 as each additional passholder reservation is made until such a point as your 100 capacity total is reached. Now if all 10 day tickets were sold and you hit 90 passholder reservations, then too bad, everyone is locked out at that point. On the flipside if passholder reservations don't materialize, then at some point the system opens up more day tickets to be available for purchase.

Honestly I think we're ultimately going to find out that for the vast majority of days, passholders will have no issues getting whatever reservations they want. I also would not at all be surprised to see day ticket prices for peak days be substantially higher this year to decrease demand for them.


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

So I had the experience of a reservation / lottery system with A basin  during the final three weeks of the season.  Out of three weekends we won the lottery twice.  You basically added your pass to the pool two days prior and get the notice the next day.  It was hard to plan.  At least K town is doing it based on two weeks.  But a guarantee, when the window opens up for a weekend the masses will go online quickly!  Two days or two weeks will not make much of a difference.  Even weather forecasts for two weeks out are not that accurate Sonia is like rolling the dice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Newpylong (Sep 10, 2020)

I see a lot of b*tching and moaning about first world problems. 

If folks are unhappy they have the option of returning their passes this year.

We should be happy to be able to ski at all. I wouldn't want to still be in the industry dealing with this.


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## slatham (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> So I had the experience of a reservation / lottery system with A basin  during the final three weeks of the season.  Out of three weekends we won the lottery twice.  You basically added your pass to the pool two days prior and get the notice the next day.  It was hard to plan.  At least K town is doing it based on two weeks.  But a guarantee, when the window opens up for a weekend the masses will go online quickly!  Two days or two weeks will not make much of a difference.  Even weather forecasts for two weeks out are not that accurate Sonia is like rolling the dice!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I have not heard of any areas implementing this type of lottery - I think that was a very special situation.  Rather they are basic reservation systems with the added twist of giving pass holders some level of priority.


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2020)

slatham said:


> I have not heard of any areas implementing this type of lottery - I think that was a very special situation.  Rather they are basic reservation systems with the added twist of giving pass holders some level of priority.



Agreed. Plus there's a bit of a difference between limited capacity at A-Basin at the end of the season vs K's capacity during the prime season.


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## ss20 (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> So I had the experience of a reservation / lottery system with A basin  during the final three weeks of the season.  Out of three weekends we won the lottery twice.  You basically added your pass to the pool two days prior and get the notice the next day.  It was hard to plan.  At least K town is doing it based on two weeks.  But a guarantee, when the window opens up for a weekend the masses will go online quickly!  Two days or two weeks will not make much of a difference.  Even weather forecasts for two weeks out are not that accurate Sonia is like rolling the dice!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Right, and A-basin was one of what...2 places operating in the country at the time?  

Lock-outs will be a legit concern the first couple weeks with demand through the roof, and limited mountains/limited terrain open.

And honestly all this sucks...but look at it this way....there's some serious STOKE that this could bring.  I think about all the days I've gone skiing, midweek or weekend, after a MAJOR dump and there's crazy lift lines as everyone wants to ski whatever mountain got the "jackpot".  I remember last year at Mount Snow I'm pretty sure it was midweek but they had gotten 2 feet the day before, first big storm of the season, and the lines were 15 minute on the North Face.  If you're smart/lucky with the weather and buy your ticket for the day after the storm in advance you could be having the time of your life without the crowds.


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Agreed. Plus there's a bit of a difference between limited capacity at A-Basin at the end of the season vs K's capacity during the prime season.



True but there is still early season at K where there will be limited capacity.  

I think early season most any place will be a bit of a shot show in terms of resort practices and having to plan more!  Gone are the days (for now) where you can wake up and say - let’s hit the slopes!  If you do not get a reservation or win a lottery then you can only dream or hopefully ski somewhere else!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

Well in second thought A Basin just announce a pass friendly model - no reservation no black outs for pass holders.  They plan to limit pass sales and access for Ikon pass holders have yet to be determined but they invite those pass holders as well.  All lift tickets to be have to be purchased online and in advance.

More deets: http://links.arapahoebasin.mkt6917....TE3OTc0NzI4MDUS1&j=MTg0MDkwMjc2OAS2&mt=1&rt=0


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## EPB (Sep 10, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I see a lot of b*tching and moaning about first world problems.
> 
> If folks are unhappy they have the option of returning their passes this year.
> 
> We should be happy to be able to ski at all. I wouldn't want to still be in the industry dealing with this.



Bravo! 

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## machski (Sep 10, 2020)

Here you go:

Letter from Killington:



At our core, we’re all about outdoor adventure – it’s who we are. We seek to inspire and empower the next generation of athletes, create memorable experiences in the mountains, and connect like-minded people in a shared pursuit of adventure. We know that season passholders like you share the same passion for action sports and outdoor recreation. This is why we prioritized summer operations this spring and why, now, we’re finalizing winter operations so we can continue doing what we love with the ones we love in the outdoor space.

Fortunately for us, mountain snow sports take place in the outdoor space naturally distancing skiers and riders. As part of the experience, guests already take cold related precautions – wearing masks, gloves, and goggles – and are spread across open terrain. Here at Killington, we’re particularly well positioned to operate successfully amid a pandemic as the biggest mountain resort in Eastern North America spanning seven distinct mountain areas – eight if you include Pico Mountain – with 28 lifts and nearly 2,000 skiable acres to roam when fully open.

We continue to monitor Covid-19 and, given its dynamic nature, have prepared thorough, adaptable operations plan that are consistent with the Vermont Department of Health and follow the National Ski Areas Association’s Ski Well, Be Well best practices. An important part of our planning includes putting in place assurances of appropriate physical distancing, sanitation and protocols that ensure the health and wellbeing of guests and staff. We are confident in our ability to provide a great ski and ride experience this winter at Killington and Pico. Below are more details on how we plan to operate this winter season with your safety at the forefront of our many tough decisions.

Projected Opening Day
No, that is not a typo. Yes, it feels a little unnatural to announce a projected Opening Day at Killington. We pride ourselves on putting in the work early season to get lifts running as soon as possible, but we need ample time to prepare top-to-bottom terrain to ensure proper physical distancing. We’re confident that starting our season with more acreage and lifts open will help guests spread out and maintain an appropriate distance while also providing a higher quality on-snow experience from day one of the season.

Additionally, our early season snowmaking and expansion plan is different than recent years and will focus on getting multiple lifts open and spreading out guests across the resort to facilitate physical distancing. Typically, our stairs leading from North Ridge to Killington Peak provide the connection needed early season when skiing access is not available off Killington Peak, but the stairs will remain closed this season since they don’t allow for physical distancing. This is just one of the many reasons the team at Killington is setting our sights on top-to-bottom skiing from the start.

As a result, we plan to open for skiing and riding at Killington Resort November 14, weather and terrain permitting. As you can imagine it wasn’t an easy decision; lots of time and effort went into selecting a date based on historical weather data for Killington. We believe November 14 is a realistic date to achieve top-to-bottom skiing and riding with access to multiple base area lifts. That being said, we all know East Coast weather – early season especially – can be challenging and until we can provide the space needed to facilitate physical distancing, we will delay opening. We anticipate being open for Killington Season Pass and Ikon passholders only on opening day and for a period of time as we assess operations and capacity limits. Information about when day ticket holders can access the mountain will be announced at a later date.

As always, we are committed to making snow, having an early season Woodward Mountain Park offering and getting lifts turning, but where we plan to make snow is different from recent seasons. We will concentrate our snowmaking efforts on providing a top-to-bottom route from the K-1 Gondola, in the North Ridge area and on Snowdon Mountain. Snowmaking will begin in the North Ridge area and Killington Peak and stay concentrated in those areas with a plan to expand into Snowdon area as soon as possible. Maintaining snow in these areas will take priority early season and when we feel able to spread our resources, we’ll continue concentrating on upper mountain. This means we don’t plan to offer beginner terrain in the Snowshed or Ramshead areas until mid- to late-December instead of Thanksgiving weekend like we have in the past.

Over at Pico Mountain, our projected opening day is December 19 and expansion plans will focus on giving guests the opportunity to spread out like we’re planning at Killington.

Resort Access & Parking Reservations
Throughout the season, we will be limiting the number of guests at the resort in order to facilitate physical distancing. Our primary method for limiting the number of guests will be accomplished by adjusting our ticket and pass product offerings and sales channels as well as limiting the number of tickets we sell on any given day. For example, we don’t plan to host bus groups or offer promotions/3rd party tickets valid on weekends or peak days.

We are also implementing an online parking reservation system for all guests. This means that everyone, including season passholders, will need to let us know they’re coming. Implementing this system proactively will help us track and manage volume and ensure an experience which enables appropriate physical distancing. We plan to share more details on how this will be implemented in the coming weeks. Please be patient and understand our goal is to allow passholders to ski and ride on the days they wish. By adjusting our daily lift ticket sales strategy, we hope to reach this goal. Our size and commitment to opening as much terrain as possible as quickly as possible are also in our favor.

For day ticket purchasers, all ticket sales will happen in advance which will allow for contactless ticketing either by reloading an existing ONE PASS card or being able to pick up a new ONE PASS card from a ticket kiosk. We introduced these ticket kiosks last season at select base lodges but are accelerating our roll out of the kiosks at all base lodges for the coming season.

Early Season Skinning
I know that our first snowfall is going to get everyone excited for another season on the mountain and you may want to earn your turns before lifts spin, but uphill travel routes will not be open early season. Until we have enough snow coverage to open designated uphill travel routes, skinning is not permitted at Killington and Pico. I’m aware that many pass holders have ignored our closures in the past, but this season, our uphill policy will be strictly enforced and you will be at risk of losing ski privileges if you’re caught on the mountain. If uphill routes are closed, it’s for good reason – such as unmarked hazards, poor coverage or large machinery at work to name a few – and in the best interest of our guests, staff and community first responders.

Protective Gear
What we know is that skiing and exploring the great outdoors during this time is one of the safest ways to recreate and we are fortunate that inherent to the ski and ride experience is the wearing protective gear – masks, gloves and goggles.

Our current mask policy in conjunction with the statewide face mask mandate in Vermont that went into effect August 1, 2020 will remain in place this winter so our current mask policy will also stay in place: at the resort masks covering the nose and mouth are required at all times, except when seated while eating or drinking. I suggest keeping an extra face mask on you in case one is lost or you find your primary face covering getting too uncomfortable after freezing up from the moisture in your breath. I’ve been there; it’s not fun.

Base Lodges & Food and Beverage
Current Vermont rules limit capacity in buildings to 50%, including staff, and our operation plans will follow these limits. This means there will be certain changes in base lodges this season. For example, lodges will act more as a ‘warming hut’ for skiers and riders with limited grab n’ go food, new egress/ingress flows and other measures to ensure access to restrooms without affecting the overall capacity, and non-skiers/riders will not have access to lodges. In addition, we will have extra outdoor portable bathrooms available and, with support from our Killington sponsors, we will introduce unique outdoor dining options, add food trucks and have popular trail side venues, including the Jerk Jamaican Mountain Grill and Braut House open on a more regular basis.

I know Killington is known for and proud to deliver a great après experience, but with the need to physically distance and given Vermont's regulations on dining and bars, which require alcohol only be served when seated, at a table, our legendary après won't look the same this year. At this time, our more intimate structures on-mountain like the Ledgewood Yurt and Motor Room Bar will not operate this season.

Everyone doing everything they can will help us ensure the longevity of the ski season. This means that the new normal for this season at Killington and Pico will be booting up in the parking lot, going straight to the lift and back to your car without ever going inside a lodge. Boot bags and bags in general will not be permitted in lodges and complimentary bag check will be closed. That being said, I recommend grabbing an extra pair of socks this season, getting a pair of boot heaters (I love mine!), and keeping your boots near the floor heat vents on your way up to the mountain this winter. Plan to operate out of your car like it was a base lodge and pack extra snacks to re-fuel throughout the day. New England winters can be chilly, so we ask that you use the base lodges sparingly and limit your time inside. This will make it more available to everyone that needs it while we work around current capacity restrictions.

Physical Distancing on Chairlifts and Gondolas
High capacity chairlifts and closed cabin carriers will be loaded in a way that allows for physical distancing. For example, on the gondola and our high speed, high capacity lifts, guests will have the opportunity to ride with only members of their traveling party, or load at a reduced capacity with other skiers and riders. On our other lifts, we will load at 50% capacity or with members you traveled with. Masks covering the nose and mouth are required at all times in lift lines and while riding lifts.

Physical distancing in lift queues occurs organically due to the length of skis and snowboards and guests will notice additional spacing measures, including extended maze designs, more lateral spacing and increased signage, to further ensure a consistent flow of appropriately spaced traffic.

New Killington Resort App, Text Messaging and More
Our team has been working behind the scenes to develop a new Killington Resort App, which will be available for Apple and Android phones at the beginning of the winter season. A few key features of the app will be real-time lift and trail status, lift wait times and tracking. The tracking feature will allow you to track your ski day, see where you’re at on the map and allow you to see where friends and family are on the mountain. We will also be able to send push notifications with real-time updates and information as needed allowing us to improve communication to guests who are at the resort.

Speaking of improving communications, we’re also rolling out a text messaging platform. We know the likelihood of needing to communicate with guests outside of email and social media is greater than ever this coming season. We promise we won’t bog you down with endless text messages but plan to use it for communicating critical operations updates as needed, important information about upcoming visits and the occasional promotional message such as a season pass deadline reminder. You can opt into text messages today by texting Beast to 64600. Opt-in details for Pico Mountain coming soon. Message and data rates may apply.

We are also implementing new software to enable contactless credit card payments in our food and beverage outlets. We will also be issuing new ONE PASSES to season passholders that will integrate with the new system for discounts. Be on the lookout for an email next week to verify your address for mailing.

Ski & Snowboard Rental & Snow Sports School Lessons
We want to provide a great experience this season and that includes having rentals and snow sports programming available. Rentals will be available out of K-1 at the beginning of the season; however, since we plan to operate with intermediate to advanced terrain only early season, lessons won’t be available until mid- to late-December. Advance reservations will be required for both rentals and lessons. All equipment will be sanitized between guest uses.

The 20/21 season will begin with private lessons only for related parties at Killington Resort and Pico Mountain. We will offer our Unleashed and 4241 seasonal lesson programs. Ministars, Youth Group Lessons, childcare and our group Learn to Ski & Ride programs will not be offered this season at Killington. We will not offer youth group lessons or childcare at Pico.

Employee Health Screenings
All employees will continue to be required to get their temperature checked and submit a daily health screening before arriving to work verifying that they are feeling well and have not been in contact with someone showing symptoms or exposed to Covid-19. If employees are not feeling well, they are required to stay home. We ask that our guests join us in this practice and stay home when experiencing symptoms or feeling unwell.

Now What
As we close out the summer and shift to fall operations, we will continue to refine and adjust our winter plans to ensure the safety and wellbeing of our community, guests and team. While ample snow and the longest season in the east have been signs of success in the past, this season success means facilitating a season of skiing and riding in a socially responsible way. In order to do that, we know we need the cooperation of our local community, guests and employees. We’re all connected.

We thrive in unison, not as individuals. To operate effectively this winter, and the remainder of the summer for that matter, we all need to do our part and follow safety measures to keep ourselves and others healthy. Regardless of what happens to Covid-19 cases in the future, whether they spike or decline locally or around the country, we’re in this for the long game and need to remain consistent with our safety protocol so we may continue to play in the mountains for years to come. So wear a face mask, practice physical distancing, wash your hands often and stay home if you’re not feeling well.

While there is always a competition to open first, we believe winning this year means everyone doing their part to put into place thoughtful plans and follow guidelines and best practices to keep one another safe, so that we may enjoy a full season of skiing and riding. I hope our commitment to maintaining candid communication gives you some comfort in our plans for the upcoming season. We know everyone’s adapting in their own way and we want to make sure you know how we plan to adjust.

If you still have questions we haven’t answered yet, please submit them here.

I look forward to seeing you on the trails.

Mike Solimano
President & General Manager

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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

That was well put together!  Interesting about parking reservations!


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> True but there is still early season at K where there will be limited capacity.



Well K's opening is now aligned with similar dates to many other areas and will have more terrain at the start. So that right there spreads out demand among multiple resorts unlike in the past where K was the main game in town. And K already said no day tickets when they first open which helps as well.


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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I see a lot of b*tching and moaning about first world problems.
> 
> If folks are unhappy they have the option of returning their passes this year.
> 
> We should be happy to be able to ski at all. I wouldn't want to still be in the industry dealing with this.



I am not sure if people are bitching and moaning as much as they are curious!  I am happy A Basin just announced no reservations or black outs for pass holders!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I see a lot of b*tching and moaning about first world problems.
> 
> If folks are unhappy they have the option of returning their passes this year.
> 
> We should be happy to be able to ski at all. I wouldn't want to still be in the industry dealing with this.



Bingo

With 190K+ people dead and millions out of work or lost their business; I can't really fathom complaining about any of the announcements made so far.  So, ski season might suck a little this year.  Being dead or unemployed sucks a whole lot worse. 

Hell, the vast majority of Americans can't even afford to ski to begin with.  The restrictions aren't just first world problems, they're elitist first world problems.


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## machski (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> That was well put together!  Interesting about parking reservations!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe Copper and Eldora did the same for you in CO with regards to parking reservations.  May be a Powdr thing, haven't checked to see if Snowbird and Bachelor are also doing this.

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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Bingo
> 
> With 190K+ people dead and millions out of work or lost their business; I can't really fathom complaining about any of the announcements made so far.  So, ski season might suck a little this year.  Being dead or unemployed sucks a whole lot worse.
> 
> Hell, the vast majority of Americans can't even afford to ski to begin with.  The restrictions aren't just first world problems, they're elitist first world problems.



Everything that people bitch about on here fits you description!

Why is it so wrong to have a discussion about how things are shaping up without offending someone?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2020)

dlague said:


> Everything that people bitch about on here fits you description!
> 
> Why is it so wrong to have a discussion about how things are shaping up without offending someone?
> 
> ...


There have been people on here (minimal) and other social media platforms bitching about reservations and getting value for their money.  That's a little different than "discussion."


Not sure what you are getting at regarding being offended.  I'm certainly not. I just disagree with the sense of entitlement some folks have about skiing given all else that's going on in the world currently.

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## dlague (Sep 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> There have been people on here (minimal) and other social media platforms bitching about reservations and getting value for their money.  That's a little different than "discussion."
> 
> 
> Not sure what you are getting at regarding being offended.  I'm certainly not. I just disagree with the sense of entitlement some folks have about skiing given all else that's going on in the world currently.
> ...



Ok I understand you perspective!  I think it is often the folks that get out often and get their 60+ days in that fear their number of days will be limited!

2020 has been a shit show I will give you that!  Wife and I - no work so we are on the hunt or the move.  Not bitchin!  Just rolling with it!


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## bizarrefaith (Sep 10, 2020)

machski said:


> Here you go:
> 
> Letter from Killington:
> 
> ...



Yikes


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2020)

Sorry to hear that.  Best of luck with the job search

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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2020)

cdskier said:


> No...I think people are reading into this shit way too much and trying to create issues without having all the information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got the K email this am; couldn't wait to get in here and stir the pot. Spurred some good conversation.

I don't think it will matter to me what K does because I believe the state of VT will not allow me to ski there this season. Someone mentioned deferring passes if there was unhappiness. I'm not unhappy and doubt any restrictions K employs will apply to me in any meaningful way as a midweek skier. But none of that matters if VT says no good for me to enter the state. So I will be forced to defer my K pass to next season. 

Once this nightmare is over I have every intention of returning as a K passholder.


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## Edd (Sep 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Got the K email this am; couldn't wait to get in here and stir the pot. Spurred some good conversation.
> 
> I don't think it will matter to me what K does because I believe the state of VT will not allow me to ski there this season. Someone mentioned deferring passes if there was unhappiness. I'm not unhappy and doubt any restrictions K employs will apply to me in any meaningful way as a midweek skier. But none of that matters if VT says no good for me to enter the state. So I will be forced to defer my K pass to next season.
> 
> Once this nightmare is over I have every intention of returning as a K passholder.



I’m skeptical that VT is going to tell season pass holders to f**k off this winter, but I’ve been wrong before.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2020)

dlague said:


> Why is it so wrong to have a discussion about how things are shaping up without offending someone?



Because pretending to be offended is a hobby now.  For some it's more akin to a sport.  

Participants are mostly the faux self-righteous & those with low self-esteem.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2020)

> _at the resort *masks* *covering the nose and mouth are required at all times, except when seated while eating or drinking.*_



Perhaps I'm reading this too much like a lawyer, but they couldn't possibly mean while skiing, right?    As written it sounds that way.



Edd said:


> *I’m skeptical that VT is going to tell season pass holders to f**k off this winter, but I’ve been wrong before.*



The hit to the Vermont State economy would be hellish I would think.  Leaf-peeping season's a bust too.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Perhaps I'm reading this too much like a lawyer, but they couldn't possibly mean while skiing, right?    As written it sounds that way.
> 
> 
> 
> The hit to the Vermont State economy would be hellish I would think.  Leaf-peeping season's a bust too.



It remains to be seen how good for business foliage season will be, but I know Stowe was quite busy in August.  My best friend has owned a cafe in Stowe village for ten years.  August was a record revenue month for him.  Labor day weekend as well.  Granted his restaurant is takeout oriented and he has heard of full service restaurants struggling some, but most in town have been pleasantly surprised with the tourism activity from about mid-July on.  

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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> It remains to be seen how good for business foliage season will be, but I know Stowe was quite busy in August.  My best friend has owned a cafe in Stowe village for ten years.  August was a record revenue month for him.  Labor day weekend as well.  Granted his restaurant is takeout oriented and he has heard of full service restaurants struggling some, but most in town have been pleasantly surprised with the tourism activity from about mid-July on.



When I was on the phone a couple weeks ago with my propane company in VT to schedule some service on my heater up there, I mentioned that I hadn't even been back up since March due to VT's rules. He laughed and said "you're probably one of the few actually following those rules then. There have been a lot of out of state people up here this summer. Most people do seem to be following the mask and social distancing guidelines though".


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## Smellytele (Sep 11, 2020)

I was in Stowe 2 weeks ago after dropping my son off at Norwich and it was as crowded as ever. Stopped at the Stowe cider place for the wife it was raining but every outdoor covered table was occupied. Also idyl time brewery had a good crowd as well.


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## thebigo (Sep 11, 2020)

Anecdotally it felt busy but NH R/M revenue appears down significantly year over in year in August. Appears the fiscal year starts July 1. Also of note bike week was switched from June to August this year.

FY 2020: $38.2M
FY 2021: $31.0M
FY 2021 Budget: $41.2M

https://www.revenue.nh.gov/transparency/documents/new-mr-monthly-rev.pdf


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2020)

Edd said:


> I’m skeptical that VT is going to tell season pass holders to f**k off this winter, but I’ve been wrong before.



Well, VT isn't technically telling me to F off. They are telling me I have to quarantine for 14 days before I can ski.

That's not workable for me. I would not be at all surprised if the season starts without such a restriction but VT has demonstrated it will not hesitate to shut off my access if/when the virus spikes again. And for all the offers to defer/get credit for a pass if the resort closes there is no stipulation for a passholder to get anything if the resort is open but my state is restricted. So deferral is my only option.


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Perhaps I'm reading this too much like a lawyer, but they couldn't possibly mean while skiing, right?    As written it sounds that way.



The email I got specified that you should bring extra masks so you can replace a frozen solid mask with a new one. To me that means you would have to be wearing it while you ski. When I wear a neck gaiter I don't freeze up until I exert myself which only happens while skiing.


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> When I was on the phone a couple weeks ago with my propane company in VT to schedule some service on my heater up there, I mentioned that I hadn't even been back up since March due to VT's rules. He laughed and said "you're probably one of the few actually following those rules then. There have been a lot of out of state people up here this summer. Most people do seem to be following the mask and social distancing guidelines though".



This does nothing to inspire me to go to VT.

If you look in the dictionary for the word "example" my picture is there. If only 1 person gets flak for disobeying virus restrictions guaranteed it will be me.


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This does nothing to inspire me to go to VT.
> 
> If you look in the dictionary for the word "example" my picture is there. If only 1 person gets flak for disobeying virus restrictions guaranteed it will be me.



Hah. I feel the same way. I'm in no rush to go to VT until they change their rules so I can do it properly. I legitimately don't see how many ski areas could actually survive though if VT keeps those rules during ski season (and people were forced to actually follow them).


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## machski (Sep 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This does nothing to inspire me to go to VT.
> 
> If you look in the dictionary for the word "example" my picture is there. If only 1 person gets flak for disobeying virus restrictions guaranteed it will be me.


If you own a place in VT, you can probably get away with it as enforcement seems to be on hotels/rental agencies.  If you don't own and want to spend a night(s) and are from a bad county, that will likely prove difficult.

As an aside, ME has not and doesn not sound like it will be waivering from the restrictions on MA and RI residents with regards to a negative test inside 72 hours or 14 day quarantine anytime soon.

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## skijay (Sep 11, 2020)

I can finally go to VT this weekend as I met the 7 day quarantine & negative COVID Test. 




Travelers arriving to Vermont in a personal vehicle, may complete either a 14-day quarantine or a 7-day quarantine followed by a negative test in their home state and enter Vermont without further quarantine restrictions.


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## slatham (Sep 11, 2020)

View from SoVT...

Anecdotal summer better than expect especially August. Lots of pent up demand and since nobody got on a plane it was all drive-to local vacations.

VT quarantine restrictions can really only be enforced for lodging, or if you get involved with an outbreak and they determine you didn't follow rules - this probably has significant ramifications. In my mind, the key is not to have had any exposure as defined by the CDC, which means if you are following the mask and distance rules (and so are the people you come in contact with) you are OK (though yes technically not following the VT rules). In any event, I am working from home so I can more easily quarantine. But I would hope, and expect, them to alter the rules this fall.

Regarding the comment on out of staters coming up to their homes - note that this is allowed without pre-quarantine, you just can't go out to any establishment (i.e. you're effectively in quarantine). So bring your food!

Mask+distance has been well adhered to. It was a bit weak to start the summer - ironically more with the locals - but everyone now is on the bandwagon.

Skiing with masks - I have not seen any official written policy from any resort that says you have to wear a mask while skiing. Around the base area, inside, on line, on lift, yes. On trail, no.

Stay safe.


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## bizarrefaith (Sep 11, 2020)

slatham said:


> Skiing with masks - I have not seen any official written policy from any resort that says you have to wear a mask while skiing. Around the base area, inside, on line, on lift, yes. On trail, no.
> 
> Stay safe.



The Killington announcement said masks are required _at all times_ except when eating or drinking:

"masks covering the nose and mouth are required at all times, except when seated while eating or drinking"


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## urungus (Sep 11, 2020)

Vermont says no test necessary if you have quarantined for at least 14 days before arrival.  How is a person supposed to prove this, if confronted ?


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## JimG. (Sep 11, 2020)

machski said:


> If you own a place in VT, you can probably get away with it as enforcement seems to be on hotels/rental agencies.  If you don't own and want to spend a night(s) and are from a bad county, that will likely prove difficult.
> 
> As an aside, ME has not and doesn not sound like it will be waivering from the restrictions on MA and RI residents with regards to a negative test inside 72 hours or 14 day quarantine anytime soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



I do not own.

Always wanted to and planned to buy a place in NE, rethinking all that big time after this disaster.


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## thebigo (Sep 11, 2020)

urungus said:


> Vermont says no test necessary if you have quarantined for at least 14 days before arrival.  How is a person supposed to prove this, if confronted ?



Other question: what if the county listed on your licence is yellow but you haven't been home in weeks?


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## Zermatt (Sep 11, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Other question: what if the county listed on your licence is yellow but you haven't been home in weeks?



If you haven't figure it out yet, you never will.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Sep 11, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I see a lot of b*tching and moaning about first world problems.
> 
> If folks are unhappy they have the option of returning their passes this year.
> 
> We should be happy to be able to ski at all. I wouldn't want to still be in the industry dealing with this.



So bitching about people complaining makes you morally superior?   

Paying customers have every right to voice their displeasure.  For me the frustration isn't with people in the industry. They have to deal with unreasonable power hungry state governments. It's governmental tyranny that pisses me off.


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## EPB (Sep 11, 2020)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> So bitching about people complaining makes you morally superior?
> 
> Paying customers have every right to voice their displeasure.  For me the frustration isn't with people in the industry. They have to deal with unreasonable power hungry state governments. It's governmental tyranny that pisses me off.


I think you guys may agree in principal more than you realize (government stuff aside) in that it's not the resort's fault if one can't just show up and use their pass/buy a ticket like they used to do.

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## slatham (Sep 11, 2020)

bizarrefaith said:


> The Killington announcement said masks are required _at all times_ except when eating or drinking:
> 
> "masks covering the nose and mouth are required at all times, except when seated while eating or drinking"



Ah yes I saw that too but later on it became obvious they were referring to the base area. Not trials. I may be wrong but that’s how I read it.


----------



## slatham (Sep 11, 2020)

urungus said:


> Vermont says no test necessary if you have quarantined for at least 14 days before arrival.  How is a person supposed to prove this, if confronted ?



Scouts honor of course. And if you look guilty they do a Spock mind meld.....

And you can quarantine in VT if it’s in a private residence.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *most in town have been pleasantly surprised with the tourism activity from about mid-July on. *



I remember you saying this a week or two ago; the only possible explanation, looking at State of Vermont's COVID19 county map, is that nobody gives a rat's azz about State of Vermont's COVID19 county map.



JimG. said:


> *The email I got specified that you should bring extra masks so you can replace a frozen solid mask with a new one. To me that means you would have to be wearing it while you ski.*



If that is actually true, it's the dumbest flipping thing I've heard in the 6 months of SARS-CoV-2, and I've had "my cup runneth over" from dumb things that make no scientific sense over the last 6 months.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2020)

urungus said:


> Vermont says no test necessary if you have quarantined for at least 14 days before arrival.  *How is a person supposed to prove this, if confronted ?*



They dont have to.  HIPPA (Clinton Administration, 1996) prevents Vermont from verifying this information. They cant verify you've had a medical procedure, which a COVID19 test falls under.  Unless of course, there's some provision that breaks HIPPA during an emergency authorization.  I guess we actually may need a real lawyer now!  As for the 14 day thing, as discussed, anyone can lie.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 12, 2020)

I think there are certain loopholes in HIPPA that a state might be able to argue in the interest of public health safety.  

As an example, a co-worker of mine in NJ had a stroke in February.  The hospital had to immediately notify the DMV of the event and his driver's license was suspended pending a doctor's note clearing him to drive again.  

It's a slippery slope regarding Covid. I'm just pointing out that HIPPA isn't 100% protective of an individual's health privacy. 

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 12, 2020)

Who's going to be more screwed this year, Jay Peak or Cannon?


----------



## drjeff (Sep 12, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Who's going to be more screwed this year, Jay Peak or Cannon?



Jay... Unless the border opens for regular back and forth travel from their substantial greater Montreal area population base that thye draw from, they're in a much tougher situation for drawing guests to the area to possible try it out than Cannon is. Heck, the already large drawing Loon isn't even 10 minutes down the highway from Cannon.

Much easier to get a potential new customer to a place that is very close to where they may be used to going than getting them to a place where it is much further away from where they may be used to going to, plus NH, as of now, seems to have a rules on lodging that are more open than VT does


----------



## nhskier1969 (Sep 12, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Jay... Unless the border opens for regular back and forth travel from their substantial greater Montreal area population base that thye draw from, they're in a much tougher situation for drawing guests to the area to possible try it out than Cannon is. Heck, the already large drawing Loon isn't even 10 minutes down the highway from Cannon.
> 
> Much easier to get a potential new customer to a place that is very close to where they may be used to going than getting them to a place where it is much further away from where they may be used to going to, plus NH, as of now, seems to have a rules on lodging that are more open than VT does



I was thinking more of the Tram Situation.   
I feel Jay could really be hurt with limited to no tram this year.  Plus Vermont seems to be more strict than NH.


----------



## dlague (Sep 12, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I was thinking more of the Tram Situation.
> I feel Jay could really be hurt with limited to no tram this year.  Plus Vermont seems to be more strict than NH.



90% of the people that go up on the tram go down Vermonter or around towards the flyer terminal.  Those that like face chutes, green beret and Valhalla and the likes can still find trees  elsewhere off Flyer or Jet so the tram is not a total loss.


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## thebigo (Sep 12, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Who's going to be more screwed this year, Jay Peak or Cannon?



Other than first car or the novelty of racing a tram, I rarely rode the tram when I had a cannon pass. I have no facts to back this up but I would bet the tram itself generates more revenue in the summer than winter.


----------



## p_levert (Sep 12, 2020)

machski said:


> If you own a place in VT, you can probably get away with it as enforcement seems to be on hotels/rental agencies.  If you don't own and want to spend a night(s) and are from a bad county, that will likely prove difficult.
> 
> As an aside, ME has not and doesn not sound like it will be waivering from the restrictions on MA and RI residents with regards to a negative test inside 72 hours or 14 day quarantine anytime soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



For *now*, enforcement is all based on lodging.  However, if I use my Ikon pass at Killington, the resort certainly knows where I live.  So the possibility is there to enforce quarantine restrictions on dayskiers.  Not so much if you pay cash, but that would be a bad workaround for someone with an Ikon pass.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 12, 2020)

p_levert said:


> For *now*, enforcement is all based on lodging.  However, if I use my Ikon pass at Killington, the resort certainly knows where I live.  So the possibility is there to enforce quarantine restrictions on dayskiers.  Not so much if you pay cash, but that would be a bad workaround for someone with an Ikon pass.



Your home address on your season pass has virtually no relevance to whether you quarantined though. You could have a second home in VT (as I do and Ikon would have no knowledge of this). You could be staying with friends/family in VT. You could have a seasonal rental. You could have quarantined for 14 days at home and drove directly to the resort. Sure the resorts can say "we see your home address requires a quarantine. Did you follow the requirements?" If you say yes, then that's going to be the end of it. No one is going to further try to double-check what you say. Ideally people answer truthfully, but I really see nothing to stop or enforce someone from not doing so.


----------



## p_levert (Sep 12, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Your home address on your season pass has virtually no relevance to whether you quarantined though. You could have a second home in VT (as I do and Ikon would have no knowledge of this). You could be staying with friends/family in VT. You could have a seasonal rental. You could have quarantined for 14 days at home and drove directly to the resort. Sure the resorts can say "we see your home address requires a quarantine. Did you follow the requirements?" If you say yes, then that's going to be the end of it. No one is going to further try to double-check what you say. Ideally people answer truthfully, but I really see nothing to stop or enforce someone from not doing so.



Generally true, but this is all about burden of proof.  State of VT could direct ski resorts to block all persons with an out-of-state home address, unless they can demonstrate otherwise (show a local lease, water bill, quarantine certificate, etc.).  It could come down like this.


----------



## Zermatt (Sep 12, 2020)

p_levert said:


> For *now*, enforcement is all based on lodging.  However, if I use my Ikon pass at Killington, the resort certainly knows where I live.  So the possibility is there to enforce quarantine restrictions on dayskiers.  Not so much if you pay cash, but that would be a bad workaround for someone with an Ikon pass.



So change where you live.  Honestly, that's not going to happen with enforcement.  "Have you been in VT for 14 days....Yes!"


----------



## mister moose (Sep 12, 2020)

p_levert said:


> So the possibility is there to enforce quarantine restrictions on dayskiers. Not so much if you pay cash, ...



There isn't going to be much cash accepted, most announcements I've seen have already gone cashless, on line advance purchase only.  That way they have zero touch.  They also get contact tracing and advance attendance numbers.



p_levert said:


> Generally true, but this is all about burden of proof.  State of VT could direct ski resorts to block all persons with an out-of-state home address, unless they can demonstrate otherwise (show a local lease, water bill, quarantine certificate, etc.).  It could come down like this.



Resorts are not going to be interested in either being a trial court or a quarantine enforcement agency.  They aren't going to make a determination when your lease is in your roommate's name, or if you typed it up that morning, or the 100 other variations.  You're going to sign a declaration, and if you knowingly lie and cause harm, ie infection, the liability comes back to you.  The resort may set policies they enforce, such as masks required, or spacing required, occupancy limits, temperature scans, and those will be for everyone.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 12, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *I think there are certain loopholes in HIPPA that a state might be able to argue in the interest of public health safety.*



Agreed.  Never seen it done, but it's gotta be in there I'd think.  That said, I'm not sure who at the Rutland Motel 6 is going to be checking for your COVID19 testing documentation. LOL



nhskier1969 said:


> *Who's going to be more screwed this year, Jay Peak or Cannon?*



Jay Peak for all the Canuck reasons Dr. Jeff mentioned.  As for the tram, resorts seem to be completely ignoring the science in a bid to run their gondolas, and a tram is far larger than a gondola.  So I imagine they'll find some sort of BS rationale to tell you they can run it safely.



p_levert said:


> *State of VT could direct ski resorts to block all persons with an out-of-state home address, unless they can demonstrate otherwise (show a local lease, water bill, quarantine certificate, etc.).  It could come down like this.*



There is 0% chance it could come down like this.  I really dont think you've thought the mechanics of what you're suggesting through, the time involved, and/or the manpower required.  Or the potential likely legal ramifications.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 12, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak for all the Canuck reasons Dr. Jeff mentioned.  As for the tram, resorts seem to be completely ignoring the science in a bid to run their gondolas, and a tram is far larger than a gondola.  So I imagine they'll find some sort of BS rationale to tell you they can run it safely.


Jay has already announced they're running the Tram in the fall for scenic rides. They have a lengthy description of what to expect and how they're "keeping you safe" on their website. If they're running it in the fall, I wouldn't be surprised either to see it run at least somewhat in the winter.



> There is 0% chance it could come down like this.  I really dont think you've thought the mechanics of what you're suggesting through, the time involved, and/or the manpower required.  Or the potential likely legal ramifications.



100% agree...


----------



## thebigo (Sep 12, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Jay has already announced they're running the Tram in the fall for scenic rides. They have a lengthy description of what to expect and how they're "keeping you safe" on their website. If they're running it in the fall, I wouldn't be surprised either to see it run at least somewhat in the winter.
> 
> 
> 
> 100% agree...



Per state park website, cannon tram will not run in the fall. I suspect it will not run in the winter.


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## slatham (Sep 12, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> There is 0% chance it could come down like this.  I really dont think you've thought the mechanics of what you're suggesting through, the time involved, and/or the manpower required.  Or the potential likely legal ramifications.



Not to mention VT doesn’t want to completely decimate it’s economy. There’s been talk and implied comments about easing restriction. College experience will be key - and thus far in VT (fingers crossed) it’s been a success with the lowest positivity rate in the country. From yesterday’s press conference  “ If the college data continues to look good, the governor also says we can expect to see another turn of the spigot as soon as next week that would target the hospitality sector so the state can bring in tourism revenue from foliage season.”

Let’s hope nothing derails this progress.


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## p_levert (Sep 12, 2020)

slatham said:


> Not to mention VT doesn’t want to completely decimate it’s economy. There’s been talk and implied comments about easing restriction. College experience will be key - and thus far in VT (fingers crossed) it’s been a success with the lowest positivity rate in the country. From yesterday’s press conference  “ If the college data continues to look good, the governor also says we can expect to see another turn of the spigot as soon as next week that would target the hospitality sector so the state can bring in tourism revenue from foliage season.”
> 
> Let’s hope nothing derails this progress.



For sure, if VT decides to put quarantine restrictions on dayskiers, it would decimate the economy.  The ski areas would hate it and many would simply shut down.  But if a state can shut down all ski areas due to Covid, they also have the capability to restrict ski area usage to in-state skiers.  I just don't have a lot of confidence the state of VT will take a balanced, common sense approach to ski area operation.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 12, 2020)

Judging by the sheer number of out of state license plates I saw heading north on Friday, Vermont is not enforcing its own rules.  It’s the honor system and nothing more.


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## Zermatt (Sep 13, 2020)

slatham said:


> Not to mention VT doesn’t want to completely decimate it’s economy. There’s been talk and implied comments about easing restriction. College experience will be key - and thus far in VT (fingers crossed) it’s been a success with the lowest positivity rate in the country. From yesterday’s press conference  “ If the college data continues to look good, the governor also says we can expect to see another turn of the spigot as soon as next week that would target the hospitality sector so the state can bring in tourism revenue from foliage season.”
> 
> Let’s hope nothing derails this progress.



What planet are you on? Vermont has shown no interest in their economy over stopping 100% of covid deaths.  Not one death is acceptable to Vermont and if that means destroying their economy they are all in.


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## zoomzoom (Sep 13, 2020)

poorly written but generally correct.  zero deaths from covid is the goal regardless of the effect on our economy.  you can blame the orange shitstain for this whole mess and the financial pain we here will endure for years to come.  that said, am seeing great progress in reducing infection rates in the regions from which vt draws it's skiers/riders compared to my posts on 8/22 and 8/23.  some "yellow" areas are now "blue" ( no travel restrictions at all) and many "red" are now "yellow".  am hoping for more progress to come, it just depends on the behavior of others.  

https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


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## 1dog (Sep 13, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> poorly written but generally correct.  zero deaths from covid is the goal regardless of the effect on our economy.  you can blame the orange shitstain for this whole mess and the financial pain we here will endure for years to come.  that said, am seeing great progress in reducing infection rates in the regions from which vt draws it's skiers/riders compared to my posts on 8/22 and 8/23.  some "yellow" areas are now "blue" ( no travel restrictions at all) and many "red" are now "yellow".  am hoping for more progress to come, it just depends on the behavior of others.
> 
> https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel



VT could also have zero deaths on roads with enforced 5 MPH speed limits, zero deaths from fentanyl by shutting borders down.

Who removes r i s k? Used to be people choosing for themselves . . . 

'there is nothing a government can give you tht it hasn't taken from you in the first place.'

Winston Churchill


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## dlague (Sep 13, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Jay Peak for all the Canuck reasons Dr. Jeff mentioned.  As for the tram, resorts seem to be completely ignoring the science in a bid to run their gondolas, and a tram is far larger than a gondola.  So I imagine they'll find some sort of BS rationale to tell you they can run it safely.



Has either Jay Peak or Cannon been running the tram this summer?  I think both ski areas could operate with out the tram.  Especially Cannon since you access with a tiny bit of effort to the whole mountain without it!

Answered my question Jay peak is operating the tram for fall foliage tours!


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## VTKilarney (Sep 13, 2020)

Vermont’s last Covid death was in mid-July.


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## JimG. (Sep 13, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> you can blame the orange shitstain for this whole mess and the financial pain we here will endure for years to come.



We get that you don't like our current administration.

Please keep your political opinions out of your otherwise generally well thought out responses.


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## dlague (Sep 13, 2020)

JimG. said:


> We get that you don't like our current administration.
> 
> Please keep your political opinions out of your otherwise generally well thought out responses.



Thanks for reminding people to stick to the theme of the forum!


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## zoomzoom (Sep 13, 2020)

with respect to the mods, following are a few direct quotes of political opinions that managed to sneak into a skiing/riding forum without a wrist slap.  but that's ok, emotions get the better of us on some days.  these are trying times for sure, now that this disease has morphed into the political arena.  i promise to do better!  

BG
Cuomo's politically correct decision cost many, many, hundreds of lives, perhaps even thousands, we dont know. This is a huge scandal which I believe will one day come out, and that "one day" is probably "one day" after Cuomo is no longer politically relevant.

EPB
I don't want to belabor this point too much, but every time that idiot {cuomo} talks about how great he is at handling COVID-19, he invites this upon himself. 

SRR
For me the frustration isn't with people in the industry. They have to deal with unreasonable power hungry state governments. It's governmental tyranny that pisses me off.

MtVS
When the Legislature finally re-convenes, they are expected to sharply rein-in her future "Emergency Powers". Many can't wait to vote her { mills } out.

SL
This is why the R's want liability protection in the phase 4 Cares Act. With out the liab protection, we're gonna see these types of decisions across all industries. The D's are fighting back against liab protection.

ED
Strikes me as total Trump bullshit.

SS
I giuues when I think about being screwed by the U.S. government both political parties bascccily same corrupt money hungry corporate and care about$$$$ and nothing else

BG
It is politics & fear, and especially the, "politics of fear" that now rule the day.

JG
I am in favor of firing our entire federal government and would also like to see the current NYS and NYC governments defunded.


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## Not Sure (Sep 13, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> with respect to the mods, following are a few direct quotes of political opinions that managed to sneak into a skiing/riding forum without a wrist slap.  but that's ok, emotions get the better of us on some days.  these are trying times for sure, now that this disease has morphed into the political arena.  i promise to do better!
> 
> BG
> Cuomo's politically correct decision cost many, many, hundreds of lives, perhaps even thousands, we dont know. This is a huge scandal which I believe will one day come out, and that "one day" is probably "one day" after Cuomo is no longer politically relevant.
> ...



You don't have enough posts :-D


It was particularly nasty comment BTW ,I think that's a relative comparison .


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## deadheadskier (Sep 13, 2020)

Post count matters little.  Almost everyone on that list has been told to chill on the politics at some point or had their posts moderated. 

Plenty of places on the internet to crowbar your red or blue fandom in.  I certainly do elsewhere, but mostly try to minimize it here (I'm far from 100% compliant) as no politics has been a long standing tradition of AZ. 



Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 13, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> *Vermont’s last Covid death was in mid-July.*



I wonder how many job losses Vermont has had since mid-July.



oompaloompa said:


> with respect to the mods, following are a few direct quotes of political opinions that managed to sneak into a skiing/riding forum without a wrist slap.  .



I cant even imagine how long this took.   Some people have way too much free time.   I'm sure you think you somehow owned the mods though.



Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> It was particularly nasty comment



It was particularly dumb comment.  
There are 101 reasons to blame Trump for XYZ various things, but to blame him for COVID19 is moronic.


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## mbedle (Sep 14, 2020)

So I was reading the terms and conditions for the epic pass this morning and noticed that they have multiple lawsuits filed against them for closing early last season. What I found funny, is the very first case they have listed is Bellafatto v. The Vail Corporation and if you read the complaint it references Alterra as the defendant a couple of time. Very obvious the complaint is being used as a template for multiple lawsuits against different ski area operators. For you lawyers out there, does filling this complaint bar the plaintiff from being able to purchase a season pass this year? I wonder how many people will actually chose to not accept the credit offered, just to be a part of the class action.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2020)

the way I look at it is I'll likely not see as much from the class action suite as the credit.   which is of course what Vail wants me to think.  I'm also a reasonable minded human being so I fully understand why they shut down.  Its not like they decided to just shut down early because business wasn't good...


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## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wonder how many job losses Vermont has had since mid-July.


How many job losses equal a death?


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## drjeff (Sep 14, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> How many job losses equal a death?



Probably more deaths from suicide and/or other self inflicted things by those who have lost their businesses and/or jobs as a result of the government ordered shutdowns than have occurred from COVID-19 in VT.

Keeping someone safe from COVID-19 certainly for many has put a huge strain one people's mental well being, and that certainly for some, has some deadly, non directly due to COVID-19, causes


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## cdskier (Sep 14, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Probably more deaths from suicide and/or other self inflicted things by those who have lost their businesses and/or jobs as a result of the government ordered shutdowns than have occurred from COVID-19 in VT.



Per VT's weekly report on suicides:


> As of September 11th there have been 74 suicide deaths in Vermont this year. So far in September there has been 1 death. The number of suicide deaths in August and July was similar to previous years, June was lower, and in May numbers were higher. We cannot yet determine whether there has been a statistical increase or a decrease in suicide deaths this year or in the past few months.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *How many job losses equal a death?*



Clearly fewer than you think.   

You might want to look into that if there's only been 1 COVID19 death in Vermont in the last few months.

_*
Overdoses rise at ‘alarming’ rate in Burlington and Vermont amid pandemic*_

https://vtdigger.org/2020/06/21/ove...rate-in-burlington-and-vermont-amid-pandemic/

The last month data's in for is June, and it's up 50% over 2019.  And it's probably even worse than that given the year started off (i.e. pre-COVID19) low.



> *Vermont’s Health Department says in June last year the state had seen 48 fatalities since the start of the year. This year, as of June, there were 72 opioid-related fatalities. *



https://www.wcax.com/2020/08/31/social-autopsy-report-looks-at-vermont-drug-overdose-data/


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 14, 2020)

Mine wasn't an opinion OOMPY, it's a fact. And there also isn't anything in it that states my opinion on the matter. :wink:


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## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2020)

so now over dose deaths are related to unemployment?
Suicide rates as cdskier said are about the same as previous years but also as noted too early to tell one way or another.


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## dlague (Sep 14, 2020)

Vail


For your safety, we will be managing how many people are on our mountains this season and implementing a pass holder reservation system. Reservations will be required to access our mountains. For the vast majority of days, we anticipate our mountains will be able to accommodate everyone who wants to ski or ride at our resorts. This reservation system is designed to give you peace of mind knowing that you will have the space you need to feel safe and physically distance, no matter what day you visit.


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## dlague (Sep 14, 2020)

A Basin

For Ikon pass holders skiing at A Basin will be different this year.  Ikon pass holders will be required to make a reservation.

Lift ticket purchases will be limited and must be purchased in advance on line.

A Basin pass holders will require no reservations!


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## icecoast1 (Sep 14, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> so now over dose deaths are related to unemployment?
> Suicide rates as cdskier said are about the same as previous years but also as noted too early to tell one way or another.




We've seen an uptick and hard drug usage and overdoses in our area since March.  I doubt it's a coincidence 


Comparing deaths to deaths here kind of seems like an apples to oranges comparison.  Not everybody that shoots up on drugs is going to die right away, and for those that dont die, even though they are lucky, at a bare minimum their overall quality of life take a huge turn for the worse


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## JimG. (Sep 14, 2020)

dlague said:


> A Basin
> 
> For Ikon pass holders skiing at A Basin will be different this year.  Ikon pass holders will be required to make a reservation.
> 
> ...



A-basin gets it.


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## dlague (Sep 14, 2020)

JimG. said:


> A-basin gets it.



Well they had a 3-4 trial period at the end of the season.  I am sure there were many vocal locals.


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## cdskier (Sep 14, 2020)

Here we go...this is good info for Ikon pass holders. Ikon is keeping a running list of which resorts will and will not require reservations for passholders.

https://www.ikonpass.com/en/reservations

So far in the northeast, Loon and Windham are the only "Yes" ones (but they do have the footnote for K and Pico that those require parking reservations).


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> so now over dose deaths are related to unemployment?



Yes. Though not just "now".


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## Smellytele (Sep 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes. Though not just "now".



Does drug use lead to unemployment or the other way around?


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## icecoast1 (Sep 14, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Does drug use lead to unemployment or the other way around?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




It goes both ways


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Sep 14, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> so now over dose deaths are related to unemployment?
> Suicide rates as cdskier said are about the same as previous years but also as noted too early to tell one way or another.



Yes, but overdose deaths are also the direct result of many AA, NA or CA 12 step meetings being cancelled. I am 11 years sober by the Grace of God and am very grateful that I did not have to get sober in 2020.   It's very tough in the first few years and live meetings are a crucial component of getting and staying sober.  
 Very few meeting are on ZOOM etc. and much of the personal connection is lost.  It's not nearly as effective.  Many folks who work, or go to school online also have ZOOM fatigue. 
It's a real reason for the increase in OD's.  Young people are dying in droves.  We were in an Opioid epidemic already and the Lockdowns have made it much worse.


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## snoseek (Sep 14, 2020)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Yes, but overdose deaths are also the direct result of many AA, NA or CA 12 step meetings being cancelled. I am 11 years sober by the Grace of God and am very grateful that I did not have to get sober in 2020.   It's very tough in the first few years and live meetings are a crucial component of getting and staying sober.
> Very few meeting are on ZOOM etc. and much of the personal connection is lost.  It's not nearly as effective.  Many folks who work, or go to school online also have ZOOM fatigue.
> It's a real reason for the increase in OD's.  Young people are dying in droves.  We were in an Opioid epidemic already and the Lockdowns have made it much worse.



Everything you just said makes sense, its gotta be a bitch right now to clean up.


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## drjeff (Sep 14, 2020)

Sunday Rivah Rat said:


> Yes, but overdose deaths are also the direct result of many AA, NA or CA 12 step meetings being cancelled. I am 11 years sober by the Grace of God and am very grateful that I did not have to get sober in 2020.   It's very tough in the first few years and live meetings are a crucial component of getting and staying sober.
> Very few meeting are on ZOOM etc. and much of the personal connection is lost.  It's not nearly as effective.  Many folks who work, or go to school online also have ZOOM fatigue.
> It's a real reason for the increase in OD's.  Young people are dying in droves.  We were in an Opioid epidemic already and the Lockdowns have made it much worse.


Full respect to your ability to get past things! Respect to 1 day at a time! 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ss20 (Sep 14, 2020)

Ikon has a great response with everything listed on out one page and individual mountains what best suits them based on their capacity and restrictions.  Reservations not even being required at some mountains and a guarantee to prioritize passholders is welcome.  The Vail plan of going hyper-conservative and giving passholders 7 days outside of week-of reservations is hyper-conservative and opposite of Ikon. 

Unless a Vail Resort in in your backyard I honestly don't know how someone could buy an Epic pass over an Ikon pass right now.  Maybe I'm missing something.


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## thebigo (Sep 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> unless a Vail Resort in in your backyard I honestly don't know how someone could buy an Epic pass over an Ikon pass right now.  Maybe I'm missing something.



Seriously? The two unlimited ikon mountains in new england are not a day trip option for the vast majority of people living east of the Connecticut river. Further, with the uncertainty over the vt rainbow map, who knows if you'll even be able to plan a vacation. I would love to go ikon if they added a decent unlimited place or two in NH but the current offering is not even a consideration.


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## chuckstah (Sep 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Ikon has a great response with everything listed on out one page and individual mountains what best suits them based on their capacity and restrictions.  Reservations not even being required at some mountains and a guarantee to prioritize passholders is welcome.  The Vail plan of going hyper-conservative and giving passholders 7 days outside of week-of reservations is hyper-conservative and opposite of Ikon.
> 
> Unless a Vail Resort in in your backyard I honestly don't know how someone could buy an Epic pass over an Ikon pass right now.  Maybe I'm missing something.


I guess it depends where you live. I bought my Epic today. While there's no ski area in my backyard, Crotched is about 30 miles. Sunapee about an hour. Wildcat/Attitash easy day trips in state (key point). Ikon really does nothing for me if I can't go to VT with any frequency.  Hopefully VT opens up to my county soon. It should, and then Stowe, Okemo, Snow are in easy day trip range.
I rarely ski weekends, bought a midweek pass, so reservations shouldn't be an issue except holidays. I'll book them with priority days.     I just hope ski areas open, and stay open.  Some friends have Ikon and I hope it works for them, and you. 

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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2020)

there is literally a Vail owned mountain in my back yard (ok 4 miles away)  so yes I had no choice.  the wife and I, we are empty nesters with our only child in college, had considered buying both passes for the 2021-2022 season.  I've started squirrelling away money for that.


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## p_levert (Sep 15, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> there is literally a Vail owned mountain in my back yard (ok 4 miles away)  so yes I had no choice.  the wife and I, we are empty nesters with our only child in college, had considered buying both passes for the 2021-2022 season.  I've started squirrelling away money for that.



Thanks to you, I now know the location of Dillsburg . Just down the road from Roundtop.


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## kingslug (Sep 15, 2020)

I actually found it easier to get on the wagon now. Not much socializing going on so not drinking is easy in your own house. Figured it would be a good time to get super healthy, lose weight ,etc with all this shit going on. Haven't missed it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 15, 2020)

p_levert said:


> Thanks to you, I now know the location of Dillsburg . Just down the road from Roundtop.



:lol:  busted  

I guess I'll have to make reservations for my lunch runs...  Didn't think about that until right now


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## tnt1234 (Sep 15, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I actually found it easier to get on the wagon now. Not much socializing going on so not drinking is easy in your own house. Figured it would be a good time to get super healthy, lose weight ,etc with all this shit going on. Haven't missed it.



Intersting.  First few months of lock down, I found it to be just the opposite.  Stress, concern, then later boredom, after still, constant distant happy hours to keep in touch with neighborhood friends....I've been drinking more than usual.  

Have also been running a ton and took up mountain biking, so health is good.  But am consciously cutting back on the booze at this point.


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## machski (Sep 15, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Here we go...this is good info for Ikon pass holders. Ikon is keeping a running list of which resorts will and will not require reservations for passholders.
> 
> https://www.ikonpass.com/en/reservations
> 
> So far in the northeast, Loon and Windham are the only "Yes" ones (but they do have the footnote for K and Pico that those require parking reservations).


Yes on the so far with reservations, but it should be noted along with Loon, Big Sky, Brighton and Summit at Snowqualmie are all requiring Ikon passholders to make reservations.  Why do I note this?  All 4 are Boyne properties meaning if SR and SL decide they need to limit more, they will likely just need to flip a switch to go to Ikon reservations required.

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## Edd (Sep 15, 2020)

If reservations prove to be a needed thing for other big eastern ski areas, then in no universe does SL and SR go without them for typical Saturdays. They both get mobbed indoors and out.


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## dlague (Sep 15, 2020)

This is nothing new but you have to wonder!

Deer Valley no walk up lift ticket sales - looks like trend that may end walk up ticket sales permanently?

https://www.sltrib.com/sports/2020/09/14/solitude-deer-valley-ski/


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## jimk (Sep 15, 2020)

Good explanation of how Roundtop and other Vail mtns will run this winter with respect to pass/lift tickets:  http://www.dcski.com/articles/1621


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## drjeff (Sep 15, 2020)

The full reservation system, I'm guessing on some level, is something that many mountains would love if it became the norm going forward. It would make the job of staffing at adequate levels and having appropriate quantities of food and beverage on hand, thus allowing the resort to operate a bit more efficiently, easier.  After all it is the ski INDUSTRY, and they are running a business


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## steve22 (Sep 15, 2020)

Some updates from Cannon:

https://www.cannonmt.com/mountain/2020-21updates


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 15, 2020)

Edd said:


> If reservations prove to be a needed thing for other big eastern ski areas, then in no universe does SL and SR go without them for typical Saturdays. They both get mobbed indoors and out.



Should be interesting during the big holidays, ie Christmas, MLK, school vacation week. 

I am an ikon pass holder.  I want to book my families annual vacation out in Colorado this year but I am not sure what to do.  Steamboat is offering Vacation assurance but when I emailed them I asked them several questions that they couldn't answer.
Like, What happens if an out of state person comes to Colorado and they have a mandatory 2 week quarantine or if I come out there for a week, will I be guaranteed that I can ski five days.

They couldn't answer the questions.  They told me, they don't know yet.


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## bizarrefaith (Sep 15, 2020)

steve22 said:


> Some updates from Cannon:
> 
> https://www.cannonmt.com/mountain/2020-21updates



Was hoping for more on lessons/seasonal programs


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## dlague (Sep 15, 2020)

steve22 said:


> Some updates from Cannon:
> 
> https://www.cannonmt.com/mountain/2020-21updates



A lot of this is now standard

- Selling day tickets online and in advance only

- Selling rentals and lessons online and in advance only

- Prohibiting bags and gear in buildings

- Limiting day ticket sales during certain times

- Reducing the number and types of discounted products 

Online sales are now going to be the future and I think several called the “no bags or gear on lodges”.  That will make it more difficult for families with small kids!


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## machski (Sep 16, 2020)

Sunday River's preliminary plans:

https://www.sundayriver.com/covid/winter

To note, bags can come into lodges but must be stored at bag checks, nothing can be left on floor/tables.

Both on mountain Hotels will have day skier access for parking and bags/gearing up indoors this season.

Opening day will require them to be TTB, may not take as long as Killington is planning but unlikely for October.  Also, opening days will be limited to passholders and Ikon folks only.

More to come, this is still their preliminary stuff.

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## deadheadskier (Sep 16, 2020)

machski said:


> Sunday River's preliminary plans:
> 
> https://www.sundayriver.com/covid/winter
> 
> ...


Interesting that are going to attempt to manage indoor services within the 50 person per room state rules.  Seems like there will be significant lines just for folks to enter the lodges.  

Will be interesting to see how involved the state gets with the enforcement of that 50 person limit.  I'm guessing it will be heavy handed after the Millinocket wedding fiasco.  One 65 person wedding now traced to 170+ Covid cases and 7 deaths. 

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## cdskier (Sep 16, 2020)

Jay released their plans: https://jaypeakresort.com/resort/blog-updates/202021-jay-peak-resort-anticipated-operating-plan

They expect a significant (50%) drop in volume without doing anything due to travel restrictions. As such they don't anticipate requiring reservations or even requiring advanced day ticket purchases.

They will allow booting up inside, but bags must be stored in designated storage areas and will not be allowing on floors/tables.

Capacity limits on tram, but expect it to run.

Lots of other details provided in the link as well.


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## EPB (Sep 16, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> the Millinocket wedding fiasco[/URL]



As if there's only been one!

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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2020)

machski said:


> Sunday River's preliminary plans:
> 
> https://www.sundayriver.com/covid/winter
> 
> ...



Also to add: my contact there says no changes to the snowmaking budget that they have been made aware of yet as well.


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## drjeff (Sep 16, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Also to add: my contact there says no changes to the snowmaking budget that they have been made aware of yet as well.



Well for numerous reasons, it will certainly be a memorable 1st season for Brian H as the new GM there trying to figure out not just the resort, but everything else!! :flag::flag:

Pretty sure he's up to the task though!


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## Los (Sep 16, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Jay released their plans: https://jaypeakresort.com/resort/blog-updates/202021-jay-peak-resort-anticipated-operating-plan
> 
> They expect a significant (50%) drop in volume without doing anything due to travel restrictions. As such they don't anticipate requiring reservations or even requiring advanced day ticket purchases.
> 
> ...



Seriously thinking of using the $$ for the kids’ sugarbush seasonal program on jay peak season passes instead...


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## machski (Sep 16, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Also to add: my contact there says no changes to the snowmaking budget that they have been made aware of yet as well.


 Brian H is holding several Q & A sessions o. saturday of fall festival on winter ops this year and introducing himself to the community.  Looking forward to hearing what he has to say.

  They can't really back off Snowmaking where they are selling lots at $1million just for the lot on new ski terrain, right?!  Good to hear.

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## dlague (Sep 16, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting that are going to attempt to manage indoor services within the 50 person per room state rules.  Seems like there will be significant lines just for folks to enter the lodges.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how involved the state gets with the enforcement of that 50 person limit.  I'm guessing it will be heavy handed after the Millinocket wedding fiasco.  One 65 person wedding now traced to 170+ Covid cases and 7 deaths.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Funny how they can pin point a specific event that resulted in all those cases.  My wife and I have been to Southern California by plane twice and are going again this weekend.  Been to Utah, Wyoming and Arizona.  We ate at restaurants while on travel. We also frequent restaurants at least 5 times per week in an attempt to support that industry.  CDC said that restaurant goers resulted in a 15% increase in cases but how do they know it was the restaurants?  I have become so skeptical of it all!  Why did so many states shut down rather than mandating face masks immediately.  And limiting capacity.  IDK 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## slatham (Sep 16, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Also to add: my contact there says no changes to the snowmaking budget that they have been made aware of yet as well.



This is not a surprise - no need to make this call yet. Early season needs to be full-on as normal to get adequate terrain and lifts for social distancing etc. The critical time will be later in the season when terrain expansion and resurfacing decisions need to be made. This will be a "game day decision" based on season-to-date revenue vs normal expectations. It is my opinion that revenue will not be normal and thus neither will snowmaking expenditures. I hope to be wrong.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 16, 2020)

Contact tracing

Some states are more serious about it than others.  In VT at least, you have to provide your name and contact information when you go out to eat.  If anyone that is infected and was in that restaurant the same time as you or perhaps your server served them, you can expect to get a call.

I'm sure there are a lot of mistakes made in the methodology, but it's being used many places the world over to limit outbreaks. 

I believe the situation in Maine was that it spawned two major outbreaks.  People caught Covid from the sick guest at the wedding. One visited a relative in a nursing home and spread it there killing six.  Another worked in a prison in Sanford and spread it there.

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## Zermatt (Sep 16, 2020)

dlague said:


> Funny how they can pin point a specific event that resulted in all those cases.  My wife and I have been to Southern California by plane twice and are going again this weekend.  Been to Utah, Wyoming and Arizona.  We ate at restaurants while on travel. We also frequent restaurants at least 5 times per week in an attempt to support that industry.  CDC said that restaurant goers resulted in a 15% increase in cases but how do they know it was the restaurants?  I have become so skeptical of it all!  Why did so many states shut down rather than mandating face masks immediately.  And limiting capacity.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



When you fly are you just wearing a paper surgical mask or cloth mask or an N95 mask?


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## Newpylong (Sep 16, 2020)

slatham said:


> This is not a surprise - no need to make this call yet. Early season needs to be full-on as normal to get adequate terrain and lifts for social distancing etc. The critical time will be later in the season when terrain expansion and resurfacing decisions need to be made. This will be a "game day decision" based on season-to-date revenue vs normal expectations. It is my opinion that revenue will not be normal and thus neither will snowmaking expenditures. I hope to be wrong.



I agree, I was just posting what I thought was interesting information. This is in contrast to a medium sized hill (that I will not name) in NH that I know is only planning on minimal snowmaking. Much different demand at those two places though.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2020)

I'm surprised some resorts are still going to allow bags and such indoors "in designated areas" Killington said nothing allowed inside, and that there will not be any bag checks, to plan on using your vehicle more.

Allowing stuff inside is just going to increase inside traffic with people wanting to access their stuff constantly.


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## kbroderick (Sep 16, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I'm surprised some resorts are still going to allow bags and such indoors "in designated areas" Killington said nothing allowed inside, and that there will not be any bag checks, to plan on using your vehicle more.
> 
> Allowing stuff inside is just going to increase inside traffic with people wanting to access their stuff constantly.



If the line to get at it is long enough, hopefully (most) people will learn pretty quick.

I could see booting up at the car and then dropping my street shoes and socks at the bag check before heading onto the hill with a backpack. Most of my stuff doesn't need to be inside, but it's really nice on a cold day if my shoes aren't -10F to start the drive home.


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## skiur (Sep 16, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I'm surprised some resorts are still going to allow bags and such indoors "in designated areas" Killington said nothing allowed inside, and that there will not be any bag checks, to plan on using your vehicle more.
> 
> Allowing stuff inside is just going to increase inside traffic with people wanting to access their stuff constantly.



What about the people that aren't driving to the mountain?


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## Jcb890 (Sep 16, 2020)

For EPIC, does anyone know if you can roll over your credit to 21/22 rather than 20/21? Of course, it's impossible to get ahold of anyone at Epic. I've tried multiple times over the past couple of months with zero responses. Awesome customer service, really. What a shitshow.


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## kbroderick (Sep 16, 2020)

dlague said:


> Funny how they can pin point a specific event that resulted in all those cases.  My wife and I have been to Southern California by plane twice and are going again this weekend.  Been to Utah, Wyoming and Arizona.  We ate at restaurants while on travel. We also frequent restaurants at least 5 times per week in an attempt to support that industry.  CDC said that restaurant goers resulted in a 15% increase in cases but how do they know it was the restaurants?...



We have documentation of at least one major restaurant spread event early in the pandemic (I think it was Japan, dinner seating, and they tracked a double-digit number of infections to one person who happened to be sitting at a good spot for spread per air flow in the restaurant).

It's *very* likely, albeit not certain, that masks reduce spread and can thus mitigate risk. It's also pretty damn challenging to eat while wearing one.

Between those two factors (amongst others), indoor dining is clearly a higher-risk activity. Those risks—like most—can be mitigated, but I suspect that many people who are willing to accept that elevated risk level (or who don't believe the risk is as high as the scientists who study such things claim) are also willing to accept (or ignore) elevated risk levels in other activities. Thus, you have a strong correlation between "going out to eat" and "increased Covid-19 infection rates".

I haven't seen a good breakout of restaurant vs bar visitors, in that regard, either, which I think would be relevant (I can see reasonable mitigations being doable in a restaurant setting, but bars are different creatures and, frankly, enjoying hanging out in one doesn't seem to be compatible with appropriate risk mitigations).


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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 16, 2020)

skiur said:


> What about the people that aren't driving to the mountain?



Such as?


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## urungus (Sep 16, 2020)

dlague said:


> My wife and I have been to Southern California by plane twice and are going again this weekend.  Been to Utah, Wyoming and Arizona.  We ate at restaurants while on travel. We also frequent restaurants at least 5 times per week in an attempt to support that industry.  CDC said that restaurant goers resulted in a 15% increase in cases but how do they know it was the restaurants?


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## machski (Sep 16, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting that are going to attempt to manage indoor services within the 50 person per room state rules.  Seems like there will be significant lines just for folks to enter the lodges.
> 
> Will be interesting to see how involved the state gets with the enforcement of that 50 person limit.  I'm guessing it will be heavy handed after the Millinocket wedding fiasco.  One 65 person wedding now traced to 170+ Covid cases and 7 deaths.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


Yes on the wedding thing, but that is a bit different as I understand social distancing and mask wearing did not occur in any fashion at the wedding party.  You also don't drop in for 20 or 30 minutes at a wedding party, you likely stay all night at it increasing the exposure time.  Lodge capacity will be limited by tables and chairs available i am sure and will be monitored, they are talking about a 30 minute limit for folks.  Fall festival weekend over Columbus (is indigenous peoples day now, not sure on the PC) day weekend is supposed to demo SR's plan and layout for the Foggy Google, which to my understanding is being expanded to the entire upper floor space of South Ridge (well, not the admin/exec office wing).  Before they had the arcade area as open base lodge seating space but no longer this year.

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## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2020)

urungus said:


> View attachment 27038



My mother is 90 in a nursing home and Coronavirus likes that too - she got it and was asymptomatic.  I wounder how many cases are like that we will never know!


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## dblskifanatic (Sep 16, 2020)

machski said:


> At Alterra owned properties, that is correct on Passholders not needing reservations.  At resorts that are affiliated on Ikon and not Alterra owned, reservations may be required including parking (seems all Powdr resorts will require parking reservations, just saw Bachelor joined that party) or reservations to ski (all the western Boyne's will require this along with Taos.  Loon and Windham in the East will too) for Ikon passholders.  Bachelor said something like they may increase the number of blackout days for Ikon Base Pass guests.  Without a reservation to ski, not sure how they could do that as it would change the actual terms of the pass.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Ikon pass holders at A Basin will require reservations, Copper, Eldora require parking reservations.

Steamboat:

Reservations are not required for Ikon, Ikon Base, Ikon Session 4-Day, Steamboat season, Steamboat Merchant, 7 Heavenly Daze, Weekday Hall Pass, Early & Late season 3-Day Passes and Snowy Range pass holders at Steamboat, at this time. Guests who pre-book packages through Steamboat Central Reservations, or approved travel partners, prior to November 2 will have access for the dates of their pre-booked package. Our Worry-Free vacation policy provides flexibility for booking your winter vacation. To limit on-mountain capacity specifically during holiday and peak periods, we currently are not offering, and will be tightly regulating, stand-alone lift tickets and other products. Advanced purchase packages and season pass products are the only way to access the mountain at this time. For pass holders and pre-booked packages, additional line management (ie specific queue times) may be necessary during holiday and peak periods. If this is the case, guests will receive further instructions closer, or during, the season.


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## Zermatt (Sep 16, 2020)

Revelstoke says reservations not needed and all pre-bought tickets (like Ikon or Collective Pass) will be treated like season passes.

But they noted that if you need to purchase tickets, do so in advance.


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## Edd (Sep 16, 2020)

billo said:


> Revelstoke says reservations not needed and all pre-bought tickets (like Ikon or Collective Pass) will be treated like season passes.
> 
> But they noted that if you need to purchase tickets, do so in advance.



Makes sense. Massive place with not that many skier visits, I’d think.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 16, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> For EPIC, does anyone know if you can roll over your credit to 21/22 rather than 20/21? Of course, it's impossible to get ahold of anyone at Epic. I've tried multiple times over the past couple of months with zero responses. Awesome customer service, really. What a shitshow.



[FONT=&quot]Q: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Am I able to rollover my credit to the 2021/22 season? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A: If you purchased a 2020/21 Pass and become eligible for a refund of your 2020/21 Pass under Epic Coverage, you may be eligible to rollover all or a portion of your 2019/20 Pass Holder Credit towards the purchase of a 2021/22 pass of equal or greater value. Terms and conditions apply. Please see [/FONT]Epic Coverage Terms and Conditions[FONT=&quot] for more information.  
[/FONT]
*Tomorrow is the last day to use the credit*, so you'd better try again. I just went into their queue and there were 7.635 people ahead of me and an estimated 12 minute wait time.


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## Jcb890 (Sep 16, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> [FONT="]Q: [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT="]Am I able to rollover my credit to the 2021/22 season? [/FONT]
> [FONT="]A: If you purchased a 2020/21 Pass and become eligible for a refund of your 2020/21 Pass under Epic Coverage, you may be eligible to rollover all or a portion of your 2019/20 Pass Holder Credit towards the purchase of a 2021/22 pass of equal or greater value. Terms and conditions apply. Please see [/FONT][/COLOR][URL="https://www.epicpass.com/info/epic-coverage-terms-and-conditions.aspx"]Epic Coverage Terms and Conditions[/URL][FONT="] for more information.
> [/FONT]
> *Tomorrow is the last day to use the credit*, so you'd better try again. I just went into their queue and there were 7.635 people ahead of me and an estimated 12 minute wait time.


Yeah, it looks like I'd need to buy a pass (or 2) for this season using the credit, then come Dec. 8 or 18, whatever that date is, get my refund/credit for 21/22. I don't think I want to basically give EPIC a 2-year free loan.

Also, I believe the 12 minute wait time is a joke. On TGR people are saying there was 6,000 or 8,000 ahead of them and they had been waiting an hour or 2 already. Never mind the fact that any type of wait and line to BUY A SEASON PASS ONLINE is a f'ing joke. What the hell kind of operation is Vail running here that they can't handle that type of web traffic? Pretty pathetic.


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## thebigo (Sep 16, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> Also, I believe the 12 minute wait time is a joke. On TGR people are saying there was 6,000 or 8,000 ahead of them and they had been waiting an hour or 2 already. Never mind the fact that any type of wait and line to BUY A SEASON PASS ONLINE is a f'ing joke. What the hell kind of operation is Vail running here that they can't handle that type of web traffic? Pretty pathetic.



Vail customer service is abhorrent, quite possibly the worst I have ever dealt with in any industry. I dont know how the muellers were but vail is a major downgrade on the customer service sixe when compared with peaks. Used to be you have a pass question, call your local mountain and talk to someone you know. Now, the first challenge is waiting the better part of an hour, hope you dont get hung up on, then hope the answer contains a morsel of truth. I have gotten three different answers on <5 pass availability, all in conflict with the faq on their website.


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## chuckstah (Sep 16, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Vail customer service is abhorrent, quite possibly the worst I have ever dealt with in any industry. I dont know how the muellers were but vail is a major downgrade on the customer service sixe when compared with peaks. Used to be you have a pass question, call your local mountain and talk to someone you know. Now, the first challenge is waiting the better part of an hour, hope you dont get hung up on, then hope the answer contains a morsel of truth. I have gotten three different answers on <5 pass availability, all in conflict with the faq on their website.


All facts. Tried many times to downgrade my pass and use the voucher.  Hung up on every time. Until Monday. Finally got through after only being hung up on once.  The worst customer service ever for sure, but once someone actually answered the phone it was quick and easy.  Midweek NE purchased.  I'm going to use a priority day for wildcats opening day for sure!! 

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## drjeff (Sep 17, 2020)

One can argue on their own merits that my family "gave" Vail our $$ earlier than we needed to, however, renewing our Epic's about a month ago, was a very simple. easy, and efficient process. Quite happy with the customer service experience we had both in person (for my wife and my daughter at Mount Snow in mid August) and on the phone for my son and I about a month ago.

When you have roughly a million EPIC passholders (based on the data out there) and wait until close to the deadline, not very surprising that the call volume and wait times are as significant as they are now. 

I do get the the entire COVID-19 situation is going to create uncertainty, but it's not like the passionate skiers/riders that us members of AZ are aren't going to get on the hill this coming season, and in some way, shape, or form, its pretty much a given that Vail will figure out a way to make some snow and spin some lifts this winter, even if it's different than what we're used to.


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## Jcb890 (Sep 17, 2020)

I completely forgot about the VT quarantine thing... that basically eliminates us from using the EPIC Pass anyways as day-trippers from MA.




drjeff said:


> One can argue on their own merits that my family "gave" Vail our $$ earlier than we needed to, however, renewing our Epic's about a month ago, was a very simple. easy, and efficient process. Quite happy with the customer service experience we had both in person (for my wife and my daughter at Mount Snow in mid August) and on the phone for my son and I about a month ago.
> 
> *When you have roughly a million EPIC passholders (based on the data out there) and wait until close to the deadline, not very surprising that the call volume and wait times are as significant as they are now. *
> 
> I do get the the entire COVID-19 situation is going to create uncertainty, but it's not like the passionate skiers/riders that us members of AZ are aren't going to get on the hill this coming season, and in some way, shape, or form, its pretty much a given that Vail will figure out a way to make some snow and spin some lifts this winter, even if it's different than what we're used to.


You are not completely wrong, but Vail/EPIC customer service has been abhorrent dating back to last season when COVID was cancelling the season. People have been sending emails for months with no response or calling multiple times with very long wait times, etc. Though I do agree the season pass purchase process was much simpler a few months ago.


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## Smellytele (Sep 17, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I completely forgot about the VT quarantine thing... that basically eliminates us from using the EPIC Pass anyways as day-trippers from MA.



NH has 4 EPIC ski areas within driving distant of most of MA.


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## Jcb890 (Sep 17, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> NH has 4 EPIC ski areas within driving distant of most of MA.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I like Wildcat, but it is almost 4 hours from where I am located. Never tried Sunapee, it's about same driving distance as Mt. Snow, but looks smaller.

That said, unfortunately the 14-day/7-day quarantine is the least of our issues with ski resorts this season. I am more concerned for my wife's safety with her being high-risk. I don't see any realistic way to travel to a resort for a day - changing, booting up in the car, etc. is fine. But, with a 2-year-old also, there's nowhere for him to be inside and stay warm with one of us and with her being high-risk, can't use public restrooms at the lodge... I just don't see how it would work... unless you have a house nearby or rent.
But, then if you rent and the season is cancelled, you're SOL and stuck renting a place still in VT/NH.
And lastly, I have zero faith in the actual resorts and operations to enforce social distancing while having a smooth operation of getting people on lifts safely.

Sorry for the tangent, most of that doesn't have to do with the 7 or 14 day quarantines. :smash:


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## skef (Sep 17, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> You are not completely wrong, but Vail/EPIC customer service has been abhorrent dating back to last season when COVID was cancelling the season. People have been sending emails for months with no response or calling multiple times with very long wait times, etc. Though I do agree the season pass purchase process was much simpler a few months ago.


Stowe is directing people to fill out an exception form today if you can't get things straightened out before the deadline.


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## dlague (Sep 17, 2020)

skef said:


> Stowe is directing people to fill out an exception form today if you can't get things straightened out before the deadline.



Vail sent an email out to that effect as well!


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## kingslug (Sep 18, 2020)

This 14 day quarantine..is voluntary..No one is actually checking anything..it would be impossible to do.


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## machski (Sep 18, 2020)

Snowbird is going parking reservations for all guests so now it is confirmed, this is a Powdr directive at all it's resorts this season 

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## thetrailboss (Sep 18, 2020)

machski said:


> Snowbird is going parking reservations for all guests so now it is confirmed, this is a Powdr directive at all it's resorts this season
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



https://www.snowbird.com/winter-exp...pJobID=1841553668&spReportId=MTg0MTU1MzY2OAS2


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## drjeff (Sep 18, 2020)

Mount Snow may very well have more folks in the parking lot, even with reduced folks on the hill this season. Multiple condo/2nd home communities in the general ski area vicinity, that have shuttle service by the local transportation system called the Moover, were notified formally by the Deerfield Valley Transportation Authority (the entity that operates the highly recognizable cow print painted buses in the region) that they won't be providing the regular condo community service this winter to 7 condo complexes that usually have them, due to a combo of limited drivers who are comfortable with winter crowds, the limited 50% capacity per bus, and the added need that Vail/Mount Snow has requested for for shuttles in/around the base areas and parking lots to handle bringing guests in from the parking lots to the base areas....


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## fbrissette (Sep 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> This 14 day quarantine..is voluntary..No one is actually checking anything..it would be impossible to do.



Agreed, although technically you could still be in trouble if you are stopped for a speeding ticket or if you have to show up at a clinic after a ski injury for example.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 18, 2020)

then all you have to say is you quarantined at home for 14 days...   


If I want to go to VT to ski this winter I'll follow the recommendation.  Its not a big deal I'm basically doing that anyways except to get groceries.


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## boston_e (Sep 18, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed, although technically you could still be in trouble if you are stopped for a speeding ticket or if you have to show up at a clinic after a ski injury for example.



Or if there is an outbreak and it somehow gets contact traced back to you that you were the one who brought it to the area.

I agree it is very hard to enforce, but I'm not sure I agree that hard to enforce is the same as voluntary (certainly not in the state's eyes anyway).


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## cdskier (Sep 18, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Or if there is an outbreak and it somehow gets contact traced back to you that you were the one who brought it to the area.
> 
> I agree it is very hard to enforce, but I'm not sure I agree that hard to enforce is the same as voluntary (certainly not in the state's eyes anyway).



Exactly. "Voluntary" is not the right word at all.


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## boston_e (Sep 18, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Exactly. "Voluntary" is not the right word at all.



With that said... I would not be surprised to see Vermont relax the restrictions to some extent so they are more similar to Massachusetts restrictions.

The reality is that pretty much no Vermont (or Maine) resort area is viable without customers from the surrounding states.


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## Newpylong (Sep 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> This 14 day quarantine..is voluntary..No one is actually checking anything..it would be impossible to do.


 
You can't go 60 in a 30 when cops aren't around. It's not voluntary.


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 18, 2020)

boston_e said:


> With that said... I would not be surprised to see Vermont relax the restrictions to some extent so they are more similar to Massachusetts restrictions.
> 
> The reality is that pretty much no Vermont (or Maine) resort area is viable without customers from the surrounding states.


I believe they will as well. They recently invested 10 million in tourism ads.

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## VTKilarney (Sep 18, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed, although technically you could still be in trouble if you are stopped for a speeding ticket or if you have to show up at a clinic after a ski injury for example.



The quarantine rules say that you can exercise outdoors alone.  Just say that you are driving somewhere to go for a hike.

Governor Scott just allowed hotels to operate at 100% capacity and for bars to open.


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## Zermatt (Sep 18, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Agreed, although technically you could still be in trouble if you are stopped for a speeding ticket or if you have to show up at a clinic after a ski injury for example.



Friend visiting VT from out of state (an illicit one) got a fish hook in their finger this summer and had to go the local ER.

Other than basic covid questions there was no grand interrogation about how long they have been quarantining for.  In fact, no questions at all.  They are medical professionals, they treated the injury and that was it.


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## urungus (Sep 18, 2020)

Vermont Gov eases restrictions

https://www.mynbc5.com/article/rest...r-eased-ahead-of-fall-tourism-season/34076060

Article contains the following interesting graph:


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## urungus (Sep 18, 2020)

Also FYI, the Vermont Quarantine map will be updated on Tuesdays instead of Fridays starting next week (Sept 22), this should help weekend warriors planning a bit.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 18, 2020)

machski said:


> *Snowbird is going parking reservations for all guests* so now it is confirmed



But lemme' guess..... their enclosed 180 square foot box will be running up & down the mountain from 8am to 4pm, all season long, amiright?

These are not serious people, and this is all about appealing to human perception (i.e. fooling people) rather than empirical fact.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 18, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> *You can't go 60 in a 30 when cops aren't around.*



This is demonstrably false!


----------



## machski (Sep 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> But lemme' guess..... their enclosed 180 square foot box will be running up & down the mountain from 8am to 4pm, all season long, amiright?
> 
> These are not serious people, and this is all about appealing to human perception (i.e. fooling people) rather than empirical fact.


Yes, but with only 25 riders per car.

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## mister moose (Sep 19, 2020)

machski said:


> Yes, but with only 25 riders per car.



Only?  That's a 32 inch square of space for each person, less when you consider people do not space themselves precisely.  That's crazy in light of every other restriction for indoor dining, 6 foot spacing,  etc.  I don't think I'd be one of the 25.


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## kingslug (Sep 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is demonstrably false!


And that is a law..the quarantine is not a law as I see it. I looked up how they enforce it..they don't. Speed limits..yeah break those far enough and you go to jail in VT. 
but whatever..they will remove the restrictions if they want tourism this ski season..


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## machski (Sep 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Only?  That's a 32 inch square of space for each person, less when you consider people do not space themselves precisely.  That's crazy in light of every other restriction for indoor dining, 6 foot spacing,  etc.  I don't think I'd be one of the 25.


Does the bird tram have front and back shutter type windows?  If so, I would bet those will be wide open all year regardless of the weather and would provide good ventilation.  Snowbird isn't as critical as you can summit without the Tram anyway.

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## jimk (Sep 19, 2020)

Yes tram at Bird has windows that open front and back.  Correct you ski the whole place without the tram.  One year I had a chairs-only pass and still had fun, but you can't lap the cirque area easily without the tram.   But I'm too old to ski it over and over all day.:flag:

Is it correct that while reservations are required to park at Snowbird, parking still remains free?


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## Teleskier (Sep 19, 2020)

urungus said:


> Also FYI, the Vermont Quarantine map will be updated on Tuesdays instead of Fridays starting next week (Sept 22), this should help weekend warriors planning a bit.



That's excellent news - it will help quite a bunch - Friday updates were a pain - thanks for sharing!


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## JimG. (Sep 19, 2020)

kingslug said:


> but whatever..they will remove the restrictions if they want tourism this ski season..



truth


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Only?  That's a 32 inch square of space for each person, less when you consider people do not space themselves precisely. * That's crazy in light of every other restriction for indoor dining, 6 foot spacing,  etc.*  I don't think I'd be one of the 25.



Exactly.   That's why it's all window-dressing & BS to "fool" people who dont bother to think too deeply (or at all).

Killington's another great example of this phony baloney.

   Killington just had a significant COVID19 incident on property in a flipping banquet hall, which is a space just a wee bit bigger than a gondy car, in which a minimum of 25% of the people in that room contracted COVID19.    I'm sure Killington will have all sorts of "safety measures" that are "strictly in place", but you better believe Killington's two gondolas will be running!


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2020)

jimk said:


> Yes* tram at Bird has windows that open front and back.*



I hate to sound like Debbie Downer, but there's an excellent argument to be made that limited directional airflow is quite possibly worse than no ventilation at all.   

Here's a Chinese COVID19 contact tracing event I saved back when I was looking into all this stuff.  The folks in line with the steady breeze of the AC got COVID19, no people off to the side became infected.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/images/20-0764-F1.jpg


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 20, 2020)

urungus said:


> Vermont Gov eases restrictions
> 
> https://www.mynbc5.com/article/rest...r-eased-ahead-of-fall-tourism-season/34076060
> 
> ...


This is the first step towards easing the travel restrictions IMHO. 

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## skiur (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Exactly.   That's why it's all window-dressing & BS to "fool" people who dont bother to think too deeply (or at all).
> 
> Killington's another great example of this phony baloney.
> 
> Killington just had a significant COVID19 incident on property in a flipping banquet hall, which is a space just a wee bit bigger than a gondy car, in which a minimum of 25% of the people in that room contracted COVID19.    I'm sure Killington will have all sorts of "safety measures" that are "strictly in place", but you better believe Killington's two gondolas will be running!



The covid outbreak in K was not on Killington property, but it was a Killington employees birthday party


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## jimk (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I hate to sound like Debbie Downer, but there's an excellent argument to be made that limited directional airflow is quite possibly worse than no ventilation at all.
> 
> Here's a Chinese COVID19 contact tracing event I saved back when I was looking into all this stuff.  The folks in line with the steady breeze of the AC got COVID19, no people off to the side became infected.
> 
> https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/images/20-0764-F1.jpg



I'm hoping to ski for about three months at Snowbird this winter.  Currently not inclined to ride the tram at all, even with only 25 people onboard.  Maybe I'd try it if there were only 5 onboard, but I've never seen it that empty except in down-load mode or summertime.  I would, however, be comfortable sharing a quad chair with one other stranger and that's probably what my modus operandi will be.


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## Newpylong (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Exactly.   That's why it's all window-dressing & BS to "fool" people who dont bother to think too deeply (or at all).
> 
> Killington's another great example of this phony baloney.
> 
> Killington just had a significant COVID19 incident on property in a flipping banquet hall, which is a space just a wee bit bigger than a gondy car, in which a minimum of 25% of the people in that room contracted COVID19.    I'm sure Killington will have all sorts of "safety measures" that are "strictly in place", but you better believe Killington's two gondolas will be running!



A) Not on K property
B) Event had prolonged exposure, indoors, F&B consumed, no PPO, etc. The gondola while arguably is "indoors" has a near if not 100% air exchange each time the doors are opened. Folks will only be in there for 10 minutes, they'll have their faces covered, they won't be eating, etc.

Folks can keep harping on the issue of the Gondies but the solution is simply don't ride them if you are concerned. The risk of exposure is not zero but low. Unlike going into a store to get food, there are other options besides gondolas to get up the mountain.


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## urungus (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I hate to sound like Debbie Downer, but there's an excellent argument to be made that limited directional airflow is quite possibly worse than no ventilation at all.
> 
> Here's a Chinese COVID19 contact tracing event I saved back when I was looking into all this stuff.  The folks in line with the steady breeze of the AC got COVID19, no people off to the side became infected.
> 
> https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/images/20-0764-F1.jpg



There no way you’ll get me in a gondola or tram this season, but air coming out of an air conditioner is not the same as fresh outdoor air.


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## machski (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I hate to sound like Debbie Downer, but there's an excellent argument to be made that limited directional airflow is quite possibly worse than no ventilation at all.
> 
> Here's a Chinese COVID19 contact tracing event I saved back when I was looking into all this stuff.  The folks in line with the steady breeze of the AC got COVID19, no people off to the side became infected.
> 
> https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/images/20-0764-F1.jpg


Sorry BG, I have to call you out for BS on this.  Front to back constant ventilation is nothing like ventilation in a dining room.  You cannot compare a tram or a Gondi cabin for that matter to eating at a restaurant indoors.  They are not the same, at a restaurant or at a function in a hall, you are in that space for an extended period of time (dining usually what, an hour or so and at a party in a convention hall, at least 2 hours?). In that timeframe, you are likely maskless for much of it and not like you aren't carrying on conversation, increasing your respiratory releases.  Flip to a Tram or Gondi, you are in that space for what, 7-10 mins and during that time all riders are masked (at least suppose to be so for the argument, assume all follow that).  Sea to me transmission vectors and potential exposure times are drastically different.  Obviously neither are zero risk, but you are really trying to fear monger on enclosed lifts and probability of transmission.  If you don't like them, don't ride them.  But enough with BS unequal comparisons and spare us all your "science.". I do not find it accurate at all.

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## Not Sure (Sep 20, 2020)

machski said:


> Sorry BG, I have to call you out for BS on this.  Front to back constant ventilation is nothing like ventilation in a dining room.  You cannot compare a tram or a Gondi cabin for that matter to eating at a restaurant indoors.  They are not the same, at a restaurant or at a function in a hall, you are in that space for an extended period of time (dining usually what, an hour or so and at a party in a convention hall, at least 2 hours?). In that timeframe, you are likely maskless for much of it and not like you aren't carrying on conversation, increasing your respiratory releases.  Flip to a Tram or Gondi, you are in that space for what, 7-10 mins and during that time all riders are masked (at least suppose to be so for the argument, assume all follow that).  Sea to me transmission vectors and potential exposure times are drastically different.  Obviously neither are zero risk, but you are really trying to fear monger on enclosed lifts and probability of transmission.  If you don't like them, don't ride them.  But enough with BS unequal comparisons and spare us all your "science.". I do not find it accurate at all.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I’m with BG 
1.You’re  breathing heavier after just engaged in a physical activity, more likely need more than 6’ to be safe. 
2.Coughing from the cold air ? Dealing with a running nose occasionally. 

What’s Cannon tram capacity 80 ? Even 40 would not give enough space. Open windows won’t help unless you’re the person in the front.


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## machski (Sep 20, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I’m with BG
> 1.You’re  breathing heavier after just engaged in a physical activity, more likely need more than 6’ to be safe.
> 2.Coughing from the cold air ? Dealing with a running nose occasionally.
> 
> What’s Cannon tram capacity 80 ? Even 40 would not give enough space. Open windows won’t help unless you’re the person in the front.


First off, if Cannon did the same with their tram, it would be 20 max in that box.  Secondly, you have to be wearing a mask and considering the tram has an operator on board, doubt anyone will be getting away without wearing one.  Third, of they are running at that reduced of a capacity, lift line could be several minutes long so the "heavy breathers" from and exhilarating run should have slowed their breathing rate down to a normal rate by the time they board. 

Again, everyone will have their own comfort levels with things.  My job makes me travel, I'm a pilot is a small corporate jet.  We stay in hotels, we eat at restaurants (sometimes I get take out and bring back to the room, but that has gotten old) with appropriate spacing, we get airlined around and have to use Lyft/Uber and take shuttle vans.  So again, my perception of the risks have been colored by my job.

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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> B) Event had prolonged exposure, indoors, F&B consumed, no PPO, etc. The gondola while arguably is "indoors" has a near if not 100% air exchange each time the doors are opened. Folks will only be in there for 10 minutes, they'll have their faces covered, they won't be eating, etc.
> 
> Folks can keep harping on the issue of the Gondies but the solution is simply don't ride them if you are concerned. The risk of exposure is not zero but low. Unlike going into a store to get food, there are other options besides gondolas to get up the mountain.



A lot of what you said above is either wrong or irrelevant here, but the one legitimate point you made in the above is the time-of-exposure, which does in fact matter.  So I'll address that by saying that while we scientifically do not know the optimal "time" for COVID19 transmission, it is known that 10 minutes is far more than enough required to catch the virus. We know this via hundreds of captured, pooled, contact tracing data globally.


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## dlague (Sep 20, 2020)

First if you not comfortable with do not take the tram or gondola, period!  If everyone has face coverings the 6 ft is not a requirement!  Social distancing of 6ft or more is if you are not wearing a face mask!  Denver Airport has a train and there is no distancing or limitation on number of passengers at all, just face masks - that is much like riding on a tram.  I have ridden the train 8 times and never had an issue!

At this time Cannon is not announcing plans for the tram.  Jay Peak is running with 15 people at this time.  Snowbird is doing 25!  Thems the rules for now no amount of debate will change that!

Just sayin!


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2020)

urungus said:


> There no way you’ll get me in a gondola or tram this season, but *air coming out of an air conditioner is not the same as fresh outdoor air.*



Correct, but it's the direction of flow I'm talking about in this instance, not the re-circulation of flow, which is also bad but wouldnt apply in the tram (take a look at the diagram I linked).  If you're a person in the tram in-line with the flow of "fresh air" behind the vector, I suspect that's not going to be a good thing on a 12 minute tram trip.  



machski said:


> Sorry BG, I have to call you out for BS on this.  Front to back constant ventilation is nothing like ventilation in a dining room.  You cannot compare a tram or a Gondi cabin for that matter to eating at a restaurant indoors.  They are not the same, at a restaurant or at a function in a hall, you are in that space for an extended period of time (dining usually what, an hour or so and at a party in a convention hall, at least 2 hours?).



See above



machski said:


> *enough with BS unequal comparisons and spare us all your "science.". I do not find it accurate at all.*



Obviously any comparison will literally be "unequal", but that's kind of the entire point.  This is a novel virus so there's nothing linear 1-to-1 to compare it with, but we can use what we do now about viral particulate science, contact tracing, mechanism of infection, and 101 other things to make an educated guess.   For instance, the air in winter will be dry too by the way, which is worse.  Your bodies' protective cilia cant function as well in dry air, which is worse.  You're in a shoebox, which is worse.  People will have increased respiration, which is worse.  You can go on-and-on.  I have no idea how you refer to any of this as "fear-mongering", much less calling it inaccurate.


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## machski (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct, but it's the direction of flow I'm talking about in this instance, not the re-circulation of flow, which is also bad but wouldnt apply in the tram (take a look at the diagram I linked).  If you're a person in the tram in-line with the flow of "fresh air" behind the vector, I suspect that's not going to be a good thing on a 12 minute tram trip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I give up, you're just God and know everything.  Like I said, ride them or don't.  I don't think it's the calamity in the making you make them out to be.

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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2020)

machski said:


> I give up, you're just God and know everything.



I literally said, "we dont know" (several times in fact), but I guess if you cant address points & refute them, you respond like this.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Unlike going into a store to get food, *there are other options besides gondolas to get up the mountain.*



Not everywhere.

For instance, here's a ski resort called Ischgl in Austria. It's really very unusual as the only way up the mountain from the base is via one of 3 gondolas.

Given the expansive terrain, for many I suspect those will be the only 3 lifts you ride all day.  In any event I'd never heard of Ischgl until recently.  The reason I heard of it is because it is numerically the #1 COVID19 superspreading site successfully traced on the entire continent of Europe (and I believe also the entire world).

To be sure, there was also tracing that led back to apres-ski bars & restaurants as well, including one where patrons shared whistles for some reason.  But before you can give it to someone apres-ski you had to have caught the virus "avant-ski".  Now surely machski will call this "fear-mongering" as well, but I call it another bit of circumstantial evidence that I file away in a bid to use deductive reasoning to predict reality.


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## Newpylong (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> A lot of what you said above is either wrong or irrelevant here, but the one legitimate point you made in the above is the time-of-exposure, which does in fact matter.  So I'll address that by saying that while we scientifically do not know the optimal "time" for COVID19 transmission, it is known that 10 minutes is far more than enough required to catch the virus. We know this via hundreds of captured, pooled, contact tracing data globally.



Are you going to be making out with stangers inside the gondola? What is your exposure avenue for these 10 minutes assuming everyone is fully dressed, has their gater up and is not coughing all over the place?

You can say "I am wrong or this is irrelevant" but I think you would find most doctors would say there is a very low probability of transmission in this scenario. But the morale of the story really is, don't ride them if you're not comfortable.


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## Edd (Sep 20, 2020)

Where I work, I’m on a 14 person team at a pharmaceutical manufacturer. Our work areas are called “suites”, which are multi-level and can be quite large, in terms of person per square foot. 

However, we have a “control room”, which is where people gather for administrative decisions and documents are stored and sourced. It’s the popular space for staff, by necessity. 

We wear gloves, masks, and oversuits (for human particles). The control room, which is about 14x23’, we bunch up in there 14 at a time sometimes. I don’t love that. 

But, no COVID cases reported since this all started. This is in NH, btw. 


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## thebigo (Sep 20, 2020)

I believe there is an area named grouse in BC where two trams are the only option out of the base area. Also, that area in northern Idaho with the several mile long Gondola that runs through people's yards. 

I will not ride an enclosed lift this year, not worth it but also not a huge loss. Early season at k is the only time I typically ride an enclosed lift and that is not happening this year anyway. 

As for ischgl, I work very closely with a number of Austrians. We discussed the outbreak in the spring, apparently the local tradition at ischgl is to play beer pong by spitting the ball in your opponent's cups.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Are you going to be making out with stangers inside the gondola? *What is your exposure avenue for these 10 minutes assuming everyone is fully dressed, has their gater up and is not coughing all over the place?*



The same as it is everywhere else in the world, inhalation.  

I also think you're making a massive assumption that everyone will be "masked up" in gondola cars, especially given they're being told that it's "safe" to enter the gondola with people from the same family.  

My assumption of human nature is the polar opposite of yours, that those folks who think it's 100% "safe" since someone with COVID19 isnt immediately in the gondy car with them, will not bother wearing masks at all.



Newpylong said:


> You can say "I am wrong or this is irrelevant" but *I think you would find most doctors would say there is a very low probability of transmission in this scenario. *But the morale of the story really is, don't ride them if you're not comfortable.



I think you'd be wrong about that.  At least, I'd hope you'd be wrong about that.


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## Not Sure (Sep 20, 2020)

machski said:


> First off, if Cannon did the same with their tram, it would be 20 max in that box.  Secondly, you have to be wearing a mask and considering the tram has an operator on board, doubt anyone will be getting away without wearing one.  Third, of they are running at that reduced of a capacity, lift line could be several minutes long so the "heavy breathers" from and exhilarating run should have slowed their breathing rate down to a normal rate by the time they board.
> 
> Again, everyone will have their own comfort levels with things.  My job makes me travel, I'm a pilot is a small corporate jet.  We stay in hotels, we eat at restaurants (sometimes I get take out and bring back to the room, but that has gotten old) with appropriate spacing, we get airlined around and have to use Lyft/Uber and take shuttle vans.  So again, my perception of the risks have been colored by my job.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Also one more thing for me that has always creeped me out about trams/gondolas besides the urine smell. Peoples breath will condense and freeze on the walls/windows leaving a icy slimy glaze . But hey if you want to ride go for it ,I'm not saying others can't . 

Glad you're still working I have two friends who work for major airlines that haven't flow since March . Tough business right now !  I have been working the whole pandemic and been out in public every day but just don't like the idea of confined space with little to  no ventilation . I took a cheap trip to Denver 3 weeks ago for a vacation flight was pretty well spaced . 

Gondolas seem to be a very inefficient way of moving people uphill anyway . Lots more weight compared to chairs and lower uphill capacity . I do like trams though even if just for the fact your not forced to sit down .


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## Not Sure (Sep 20, 2020)

Pretty sure Sunshine Village AB. is the same way

( Quoting thebigo )


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> *Gondolas seem to be a very inefficient way of moving people uphill anyway .* Lots more weight compared to chairs and lower uphill capacity .



I've long suspected gondolas are typically more about marketing than efficient ski operations (SEE:  Belleayre).


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## Not Sure (Sep 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've long suspected gondolas are typically more about marketing than efficient ski operations (SEE:  Belleayre).



Leads to another question ...I've been evaced from a chair before ,pretty straight forward but a gondola might be a bit more tricky.


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## MikeDeJ (Sep 21, 2020)

https://elemental.medium.com/the-most-likely-way-youll-get-infected-with-covid-19-30430384e5a5

Good read


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## Killingtime (Sep 21, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Also one more thing for me that has always creeped me out about trams/gondolas besides the urine smell.


 Haha I can honestly say I've never had "urine smell" experience in a tram or gondola although there have been plenty of times someone smelled as though they just throw their gear in the trunk of their car and it goes unwashed, for a few seasons.


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## jimk (Sep 21, 2020)

MikeDeJ said:


> https://elemental.medium.com/the-most-likely-way-youll-get-infected-with-covid-19-30430384e5a5
> 
> Good read



Thanks Mike.


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## 1dog (Sep 21, 2020)

MikeDeJ said:


> https://elemental.medium.com/the-most-likely-way-youll-get-infected-with-covid-19-30430384e5a5
> 
> Good read




Thx Mike,

     Interesting and appears objective too.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 21, 2020)

MikeDeJ said:


> https://elemental.medium.com/the-most-likely-way-youll-get-infected-with-covid-19-30430384e5a5
> 
> Good read



Great article.  

I should link that article to every one of my COVID19 anti-gondola 2020-2021 posts!   LOL   

On a serious note, the WA chorus contact tracing incident & the rodent studies it mentions did both play a part in my thinking (among other things).


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## Not Sure (Sep 21, 2020)

Killingtime said:


> Haha I can honestly say I've never had "urine smell" experience in a tram or gondola although there have been plenty of times someone smelled as though they just throw their gear in the trunk of their car and it goes unwashed, for a few seasons.



It was a really busy weekend ..............Smelled like weed too .


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 22, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Pretty sure Sunshine Village AB. is the same way
> 
> ( Quoting thebigo )


We were at Banff Sunshine on their last open day this season. Everyone rides the 8 person gondola from the parking area up to the base area. They were maxing it out at 4 people per cabin and only making you ride with the group that you came with. All the lift lines around the mountain were well spaced and had the same rules.


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## x10003q (Sep 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've long suspected gondolas are typically more about marketing than efficient ski operations (SEE:  Belleayre).



This. 
 Gondolas are exciting and less scary vs chairs for infrequent and low skill skiers. 
I avoid them unless there are no other choices.


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## ss20 (Sep 22, 2020)

There's a lot of gondola's that make sense.  It allows you to do big events for non-skiers year around and sightseeing.  The events business at these ski resorts is HUUUUUUUGE.  Charge twice as much per plate compared to something at the base of the mountain and claim its for "sparkling views" and "the remote access" of having to ship-up some extra liquor in a snowcat the night before.  It's stupid money.  Remember Bretton Woods put in a new gondola/lodge for this purpose.  SR cited going with a Chondola for having the lodge access as well.  

Other useful gondolas being stuff you'll only ride once or twice a day- pretty much just Killington Skyeship 1 here in the East but many many places out west just for getting out of lower-mountain areas.


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## mister moose (Sep 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've long suspected gondolas are typically more about marketing than efficient ski operations (SEE: Belleayre).





x10003q said:


> Gondolas are exciting and less scary vs chairs for infrequent and low skill skiers.





ss20 said:


> It allows you to do big events for non-skiers year around and sightseeing.  Other useful gondolas being stuff you'll only ride once or twice a day- pretty much just Killington Skyeship.



You guys should know better.  On a windy sub zero day the gondola is a welcome refuge from the in your face frostbite winds.  There is no line at that temp, and there are no wedge turners, just skiers.  Same is true on a 32 degree freezing drizzle day, your gloves last longer in the gondola.  On a sunny 20 degree day, who cares, ride the chair.  But I say gondies definitely have their place, in addition to marketing and dinners at the peak.  Also, pre-6Pack they were the fastest bulk transport up the mountain.


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## Newpylong (Sep 22, 2020)

Yep. Both gondolas at K (at least) make more sense operationally vs chairs.

K Peak has relatively low downhill capacity and the old K-Peak double was a brutally cold ride. There is now the bigger peak lodge, Mt biking, off-season offerings, full speed download capabilities, etc.

Skyeship makes even more sense. It is a very long ride, does not need high capacity, and Northbrook Station unload/load would be pretty tough with a chair.


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## dlague (Sep 22, 2020)

Interesting article - they mention some ideas related to no reservations and limited lodge use and tailgating.  


https://unofficialnetworks.com/2020/09/21/covid-ski-season/


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2020)

I feel like they plucked that information from Here and TGR  :lol:


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## ScottySkis (Sep 22, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've long suspected gondolas are typically more about marketing than efficient ski operations (SEE:  Belleayre).



I like the 1 at BellFlat
Its great for hanging with my awesome friends mj lol


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## dlague (Sep 22, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> I like the 1 at BellFlat
> Its great for hanging with my awesome friends mj lol



I understand since that I’d what a gondola typically smells like!


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## Not Sure (Sep 22, 2020)




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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 22, 2020)

Classic

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## deadheadskier (Sep 22, 2020)

ss20 said:


> There's a lot of gondola's that make sense.  It allows you to do big events for non-skiers year around and sightseeing.  The events business at these ski resorts is HUUUUUUUGE.  Charge twice as much per plate compared to something at the base of the mountain and claim its for "sparkling views" and "the remote access" of having to ship-up some extra liquor in a snowcat the night before.  It's stupid money.  Remember Bretton Woods put in a new gondola/lodge for this purpose.  SR cited going with a Chondola for having the lodge access as well.
> 
> Other useful gondolas being stuff you'll only ride once or twice a day- pretty much just Killington Skyeship 1 here in the East but many many places out west just for getting out of lower-mountain areas.


Gondolas and the venues they service are not the huge off season profit centers you think they are.  

They help pay the upper management salaries needed to keep that management talent in place year round for the 15-20 weeks a year ski areas actually make real money. 


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## machski (Sep 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Gondolas and the venues they service are not the huge off season profit centers you think they are.
> 
> They help pay the upper management salaries needed to keep that management talent in place year round for the 15-20 weeks a year ski areas actually make real money.
> 
> ...


Probably true during your days in ski resort management and likely still true at places like Loon where there is no large summit lodge that can double as a function venue.  However, I would think the financial dynamics might be a bit different at a location like Bretton Woods that purposely installed a Gondola to primarily cater to their new summit lodge going in that will also double as a function hall (IE, wedding venue).  I know SR has shifted a lot of their summer activities away from Mountain Biking and focus on large events and wedding business, which has powered them along and the Summit Lodge is the top venue they have using the Chondi.  That activity pumps more than just a skim of $$ into the resort.

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## Not Sure (Sep 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Gondolas and the venues they service are not the huge off season profit centers you think they are.
> 
> They help pay the upper management salaries needed to keep that management talent in place year round for the 15-20 weeks a year ski areas actually make real money.
> 
> ...



Trams different in revenue sense  ? It's been a long time since I rode the Tram at Cannon in the summer but I recall chatting with the operator and he said they run the tram more in the summer . They were charging per ride vs lift ticket and with more daylight  does the tram generate more revenue outside of ski season ?


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 23, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Trams different in revenue sense  ? It's been a long time since I rode the Tram at Cannon in the summer but I recall chatting with the operator and he said they run the tram more in the summer . They were charging per ride vs lift ticket and with more daylight  does the tram generate more revenue outside of ski season ?


They probably did make more in the summer but the Cannon tram didn't open this summer due to Covid. 
For comparison a single r/t summer ticket is $19 (9am-5pm) versus a winter uphill ticket for $82 (9am-3:45pm).


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## Puck it (Sep 23, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> They probably did make more in the summer but the Cannon tram didn't open this summer due to Covid.
> For comparison a single r/t summer ticket is $19 (9am-5pm) versus a winter uphill ticket for $82 (9am-3:45pm).


FYI, summer revenue from the whole state park, (Tram, Lafayette campground, Echo Lake beach and RV, Flume), dwarf the amount of money from the winter ski season.  I think it is 3-4x more than ski season.  JD hates running the Tram in winter also.


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## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2020)

machski said:


> Probably true during your days in ski resort management and likely still true at places like Loon where there is no large summit lodge that can double as a function venue.  However, I would think the financial dynamics might be a bit different at a location like Bretton Woods that purposely installed a Gondola to primarily cater to their new summit lodge going in that will also double as a function hall (IE, wedding venue).  I know SR has shifted a lot of their summer activities away from Mountain Biking and focus on large events and wedding business, which has powered them along and the Summit Lodge is the top venue they have using the Chondi.  That activity pumps more than just a skim of $$ into the resort.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



My experience with events vs biking in ski area management is largely what you describe. Event venues are already a sunk cost - the buildings and facilities are already there in the off-season not making money. If you can use them to provide additional revenue without much expense, it goes a long way towards keeping a place afloat in the off-season.

As for mountain biking - really not a big profit center for most areas. Some areas find this out the hard way and end up ditching it or at least de-emphasizing. You need to have a large, paid staff to maintain the trail network. You need rental and ticket folks. You need to operate the lifts, etc. and so on.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 23, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> As for mountain biking - really not a big profit center for most areas. Some areas find this out the hard way and end up ditching it or at least de-emphasizing. You need to have a large, paid staff to maintain the trail network. You need rental and ticket folks. You need to operate the lifts, etc. and so on.



Sunday River found that out and bailed on mtb. The locals (and Mt Abram) are picking up the slack.
Sugarloaf still supports but it without lift rides. However they have had other issues lately with land closures by the Penobscot Nation.


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## ss20 (Sep 23, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> As for mountain biking - really not a big profit center for most areas. Some areas find this out the hard way and end up ditching it or at least de-emphasizing. You need to have a large, paid staff to maintain the trail network. You need rental and ticket folks. You need to operate the lifts, etc. and so on.



This is something I've always been curious about.  Berkshire East and Killington do TONS of mountain biking and have sunk lots of $$$ into it (Killington running the Gondola, Snowshed, and Ramshead all in the summer is something I never would've though 15 years ago!).  It seems there's a tipping point where the ROI really starts to improve?


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## skef (Sep 23, 2020)

Massachusetts residents now exempt from quarantine/test mandate:

Per Maine DHHS.

Fingers crossed it stays this way.


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## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2020)

ss20 said:


> This is something I've always been curious about.  Berkshire East and Killington do TONS of mountain biking and have sunk lots of $$$ into it (Killington running the Gondola, Snowshed, and Ramshead all in the summer is something I never would've though 15 years ago!).  It seems there's a tipping point where the ROI really starts to improve?



I think there definitely is a tipping point. From my observations the ones who are having success with it are also able to couple it with an existing vibrant summer acitvity scene. The whole nine yards whatever that may be: mountain coaster, ziplines, etc. There are also is a limited market for those willing to pay to bike, so it has to be done well ala Killington, Highlands, etc.


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## machski (Sep 23, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Sunday River found that out and bailed on mtb. The locals (and Mt Abram) are picking up the slack.
> Sugarloaf still supports but it without lift rides. However they have had other issues lately with land closures by the Penobscot Nation.


Yeah, the other issue at SR was the terrain.  Sure, South Ridge is mellow even for bikes, but once you get up to North Peak, the terrain for biking ramps up quickly without much in the moderate range even with machine shaped trails they put in.  Even the cross country trails were tough as they were/are super rooty from the forest on North.  They just didn't have good step up terrain from South Ridge (and its not like they ran the South Ridge Express to just access that stuff).  Part of why Mt. Abram works is the terrain they have over there lends itself to much more moderate trails to allow a step up from the real easy stuff.  That is why Killington and Highlands work so well, they both have trails that flow extremely well, are well maintained and offer routes for all levels.  Loon's park is headed that way as well.

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## urungus (Sep 23, 2020)

This article claims Berkshire East “experienced a record-breaking biking season” this summer

https://www.westernmassnews.com/new...cle_638db344-fdcd-11ea-b74f-bb05756fa668.html


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## Edd (Sep 24, 2020)

Cranmore is getting it done with mountain biking. They’re well located, though, as North Conway is busier in summer than winter. 


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## boston_e (Sep 24, 2020)

I'm sure if done right, Mt Biking is profitable.  There are places that are biking only and are not even ski resorts that are surviving perfectly well.  Highland Bike Park in NH being an example.


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## kingslug (Sep 24, 2020)

urungus said:


> This article claims Berkshire East “experienced a record-breaking biking season” this summer
> 
> https://www.westernmassnews.com/new...cle_638db344-fdcd-11ea-b74f-bb05756fa668.html


Considering you couldn't even find a bike to buy, it makes sense. All forms of rec vehicles sold out all over the country..While some markets perished, this market thrived.


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## snoseek (Sep 24, 2020)

Edd said:


> Cranmore is getting it done with mountain biking. They’re well located, though, as North Conway is busier in summer than winter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



And they have the advantage of being connected to a vast and existing network. Lots and lots of work being done up there.


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Considering you couldn't even find a bike to buy, it makes sense. All forms of rec vehicles sold out all over the country..While some markets perished, this market thrived.



Golf is another sport that has benefitted from the Covid crisis.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2020)

Governor of Colorado was just on CNBC saying it will be safe to be in gondys if it's all people in the same party.  

  Yo-kay then Gov.  Have at that.


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## ss20 (Sep 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Governor of Colorado was just on CNBC saying it will be safe to be in gondys if it's all people in the same party.
> 
> Yo-kay then Gov.  Have at that.



BG I haven't seen any mountain say they WON'T allow up to full-capacity of chairs or cabins with members all of the same group.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2020)

ss20 said:


> BG I haven't seen any mountain say they WON'T allow up to full-capacity of chairs or cabins with members all of the same group.



Neither have I, and I suspect you wont unless someone like a Fauci or a Gottlieb or some other medical expert gives it some negative publicity, which I doubt will happen.  Gondy cabins seem pretty esoteric to me for people drinking from a firehouse.


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## 1dog (Sep 26, 2020)

Dr Altas will hopefully have some influence on these protocols.

When 'Chairman Fauci' says 90% of Americans are still at risk it is not helpful.

CDC Survival Rates ( if  you actually contract it)
0-19 - 99.997%
20-49 - 99.98%
50-69 99.5%
70+ 94.6%

Let people decide for themselves if they want to take the risk.

Whats the % on hitting a tree or getting in an accident on way to or from resorts?

We can eliminate all risk of death on roads if speed limit is 5 MPH . .


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## 2Planker (Sep 26, 2020)

1dog said:


> Dr Altas will hopefully have some influence on these protocols.
> 
> When 'Chairman Fauci' says 90% of Americans are still at risk it is not helpful.
> 
> ...



 I met Scott Atlas, 29 years ago  during my residency.
He was a complete idiot then and an even bigger idiot now !!!


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## Edd (Sep 26, 2020)

1dog said:


> Let people decide for themselves if they want to take the risk.



Don’t think Fauci is stopping anybody from deciding this.


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## Newpylong (Sep 26, 2020)

1dog said:


> Dr Altas will hopefully have some influence on these protocols.
> 
> When 'Chairman Fauci' says 90% of Americans are still at risk it is not helpful.
> 
> ...



Hopefully he won't, because he's a nitwit that no one takes seriously.

The driving comparisons are nonsensical.

The problem is covid is killing people that are only being exposed to it by other clowns not taking any precautions. Yeah, that's the number on the bottom. Or do they not matter?


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## dlague (Sep 26, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> The problem is covid is killing people that are only being exposed to it by other clowns not taking any precautions. Yeah, that's the number on the bottom. Or do they not matter?



So the father of a friend of mine in Alabama died of a heart attack - his death certificate had the cause of death as COVID.  I have heard of other cases like this.  That led me to look into the following (2017 numbers)







Of the 200k deaths due to COVID how many of the above got included - I would be will to bet a lot did.

Heck even in the nursing home where my mother is (many are end of life and non functioning in any way) 5 died of COVID but were near death to begin with.  Not trying to sound cold but even influenza might have created the same result or months late natural causes.


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## Smellytele (Sep 26, 2020)

dlague said:


> So the father of a friend of mine in Alabama died of a heart attack - his death certificate had the cause of death as COVID.  I have heard of other cases like this.  That led me to look into the following (2017 numbers)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Need to see where the other deaths rank this year so if the heart attack (or others) numbers are way down then we can discuss the mid information 


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## dlague (Sep 26, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Need to see where the other deaths rank this year so if the heart attack (or others) numbers are way down then we can discuss the mid information
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



They are reporting influenza as a range at this time 24,000 to 60,000 - not sure why and there isn’t an explanation.  We seem to average around 50,000 +/- a few thousand.


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## Edd (Sep 26, 2020)

dlague said:


> They are reporting influenza as a range at this time 24,000 to 60,000 - not sure why and there isn’t an explanation.  We seem to average around 50,000 +/- a few thousand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Flu cases should be way down this season due to COVID precautions.


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## Newpylong (Sep 27, 2020)

dlague said:


> So the father of a friend of mine in Alabama died of a heart attack - his death certificate had the cause of death as COVID.  I have heard of other cases like this.  That led me to look into the following (2017 numbers)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is one example and hypothetical. The death count from a single nursing home in Millinocket due to a worker having covid is now 7 within a couple weeks. 7 people would have not have died from influenza or other causes in the same home in one week. Now that person has to live with that because they went 'Murica at an illegal gathering.

It all goes back to needing to protect the vulnerable population and not writing them off just because they are old or have a condition. I


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 27, 2020)

Edd said:


> Flu cases should be way down this season due to COVID precautions.


You would think. If there not im going to have a lot of questions why.

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## icecoast1 (Sep 27, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> It all goes back to needing to protect the vulnerable population and not writing them off just because they are old or have a condition.




That should have happened from the beginning and could have happened without the large scale blanket statewide lockdowns.   Unfortunately it didn't, and some states even made the situation worse by forcing covid positive patients back on the nursing homes


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## deadheadskier (Sep 27, 2020)

http://indepthnh.org/2020/09/24/nh-ski-season-trail-map-outlined-to-reopen-task-force/

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## Edd (Sep 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> http://indepthnh.org/2020/09/24/nh-ski-season-trail-map-outlined-to-reopen-task-force/
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



I’d think porta potties would be a part of the equation. Might’ve missed that in the article. 


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## dlague (Sep 27, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> http://indepthnh.org/2020/09/24/nh-ski-season-trail-map-outlined-to-reopen-task-force/
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Funny thing about booting up at the car or truck!  Here in Colorado that is a common practice.  Many resorts do not have mega space to leave stuff laying around - there some that do lug boot bags but I bet my bottom dollar that they are from out of state!  Also not uncommon to see people tailgating during lunch or apres especially at A Basin.  On difference here is it rarely gets below zero and not many days are even in single digits.

Those super cold days will be interesting for sure for many not used to booting up at their cars.  This is where snow boarders have the advantage!

Friends that visited us in the past from NH hated booting up in the parking lot!  Looks like they will need to get used to it!

This also goes back to ski teams - they leave shit everywhere and are mass groups of lodge loungers.  That will be a change for sure!


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## Newpylong (Sep 27, 2020)

Gonna be a tough season for those of us with little ones that's for sure. But what can you do. I'll be happy to be skiing.


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## ss20 (Sep 27, 2020)

This is directly for anyone who is still a member of the Connecticut Ski Council...

Also of note for people who usually don't buy a pass and deal-hop from mountain-to-mountain...



> The Connecticut Ski Council reports that so far only Killington/Pico has agreed to participate in the Bulk Ticket/Vouchers program this season. They will only offer a weekday/non-holiday, single-use ticket which is non-refundable.





> The CSC is still finalizing the Council Awareness Days program. All participating mountains and dates will be listed on the CSC website skiclub.com soon. So far Killington/Pico, Burke, Jay Peak and Sugarbush have agreed to participate.



I'm surprised either program is running.  Awareness Days are date-specific but the Vouchers are not date specific.  So my final hypothesis is that Killington is thinking they will have excess capacity midweek.


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 27, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Gonna be a tough season for those of us with little ones that's for sure. But what can you do. I'll be happy to be skiing.



This would solve everyones issue


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> This would solve everyones issue
> 
> View attachment 27053



That would be tough in the snow...

Probably kill more people off than Covid


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## asnowmobiler (Sep 28, 2020)

Booting up at the car is really going to suck at areas with big parking lots and no shuttle. I have a ton of $$$ into my boots and dread the thought of waking through mud or frozen rock covered parking lot, but at least we will be skiing.
I guess it's time to start looking for a sole protectors, any recommendation on which ones to get?


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## EPB (Sep 28, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> Booting up at the car is really going to suck at areas with big parking lots and no shuttle. I have a ton of $$$ into my boots and dread the thought of waking through mud or frozen rock covered parking lot, but at least we will be skiing.
> I guess it's time to start looking for a sole protectors, any recommendation on which ones to get?



I've never bought these before, so I have no idea which ones are actually good. But, these are somewhat prevalent out west at places like Whistler where people boot up in a parking garage and walk through the village to the gondi. 

https://www.amazon.com/Yaktrax-SkiTrax-Tracks-Traction-Protection/dp/B003U9NAM8/ref=asc_df_B003U9NAM8/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584070139433729&psc=1


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## asnowmobiler (Sep 28, 2020)

I saw those, kind of Strange the way they a sized like shoes, make me wonder how well the fit ski boots.


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## cdskier (Sep 28, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I've never bought these before, so I have no idea which ones are actually good. But, these are somewhat prevalent out west at places like Whistler where people boot up in a parking garage and walk through the village to the gondi.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Yaktrax-SkiTrax-Tracks-Traction-Protection/dp/B003U9NAM8/ref=asc_df_B003U9NAM8/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4584070139433729&psc=1



I don't use those exact ones (I use these - https://www.rei.com/product/435109/seirus-cat-tracks), but the general concept is the same. I've been using them for quite a few years now as I have always either booted up in the parking lot or at my condo if I took the shuttle bus. Not only do they protect the soles of your boots, but it is also much easier to walk in them. They improve traction too, but I'd still recommend being careful and trying to avoid any really slick spots.


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## dlague (Sep 28, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> I saw those, kind of Strange the way they a sized like shoes, make me wonder how well the fit ski boots.



On one of the pictures there is mondo sizing.

Never used them but probably should because the heal and toe material get pretty worn.  

I wonder how well they fit is a pocket?  Which begs another question!  Will we be seeing more back packs since nothing can be left in the lodge?   Will there be more trash under the chair lifts because people will be eating and drinking on the fly?

What other residual effects or actions will arise?


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## kingslug (Sep 28, 2020)

Booting up in the lot at Stowe..when its 20 below..that will be fun...maybe I should get a full truck bed top and put a heater in it...hmmm.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 28, 2020)

I've used Cat tracks for more than a decade.  if you are in between sizes get a smaller size and stretch it.  

they work great and really aren't that much of a hassle to take off/put on.


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## asnowmobiler (Sep 28, 2020)

Time to start making a list of things to buy to make it easier to boot up at the car and to tailgate afterwards.
Sole Protectors
chair
mat
Vodka
soda
Vodka
ice
small grill


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## mbedle (Sep 28, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> Time to start making a list of things to buy to make it easier to boot up at the car and to tailgate afterwards.
> Sole Protectors
> chair
> mat
> ...



Yes, Yes and Yes... lol


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## asnowmobiler (Sep 28, 2020)

These look interesting.


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 28, 2020)

Chair, Pick up a fold up small ladder.  both sides come down to make it like a bench.  Could fit two people on it to put boots on or one person and a cooler next to you. It also can easily fit in your trunk.


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## dlague (Sep 28, 2020)

Open up tailgate, crack open a beer, put foot in boot, sling foot up on tailgate or bumper and buckle, then throw the rest of you shit on - easy peasy!  Finish beer and head to the lift. Wife and I do this every day of skiing!

After skiing, crank the tunes and do the opposite!


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 28, 2020)

I can see ski resorts charging for premium parking.  Could be fun thou, turn parkings into the beach scene at A-basin in the spring.


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## dlague (Sep 28, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I can see ski resorts charging for premium parking.  Could be fun thou, turn parkings into the beach scene at A-basin in the spring.



We pay $30 to park right next to the building!  But they do not us to tailgate there so we keep it low key.  However, people tailgate all over the parking lots at A Basin - they have a decent shuttle system.


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## djd66 (Sep 28, 2020)

Just boot up at your house and drive to the MTN in your boots


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## Not Sure (Sep 28, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> Time to start making a list of things to buy to make it easier to boot up at the car and to tailgate afterwards.
> Sole Protectors
> chair
> mat
> ...



I usually put a towel on the dash and set my hiking boots and let them stay warm in the sun but if the suns not out I throw some hand warmers in . I've always booted up in the lot but hate the idea of putting on frozen hiking boots  .


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## skiur (Sep 28, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Just boot up at your house and drive to the MTN in your boots



That's what I do, except my wife is a snowboarder so she drives.


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## ALLSKIING (Sep 29, 2020)

skiur said:


> That's what I do, except my wife is a snowboarder so she drives.


I do this as well but the condo is only a mile from the lifts so its not a problem. 

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## slatham (Sep 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Just boot up at your house and drive to the MTN in your boots



Me too, for a short (15 min) drive in good weather. Unfortunately not everyone is that close. When I don't drive in boots I typically boot up in car/lot.


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## fbrissette (Sep 29, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Just boot up at your house and drive to the MTN in your boots



Doable with flexible touring boors.  I drive standard with my Scarpa maestrale for short distances when I go touring.   Even then, anything more than 15 minutes gets very uncomfortable.


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## Smellytele (Sep 29, 2020)

I have put on my left tele boot and then only have to put one on. Never had an issue booting up in the parking lot either. When my kids were younger had them boot up at home quite often.


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## Edd (Sep 29, 2020)

I hate booting up in the lot but I’ll just suck it up. 


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## asnowmobiler (Sep 29, 2020)

Manual shift and RS 130's would be nearly impossible to drive with, so that's not an option for me.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 29, 2020)

Edd said:


> I hate booting up in the lot but I’ll just suck it up.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone




This.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 29, 2020)

Driving 15 minutes in ski boots on mountain roads seems rather risky. 

 I've heard people joke about that as a thing, but I didnt know it was actually a thing.


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## Edd (Sep 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Driving 15 minutes in ski boots on mountain roads seems rather risky.
> 
> I've heard people joke about that as a thing, but I didnt know it was actually a thing.



I agree. I’ve tried it a couple of times when lodging close to a mountain and have decided it’s not for me.


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## cdskier (Sep 29, 2020)

I don't understand either how you can drive with ski boots. I'm less than a mile from the parking lot and wouldn't do it. Then again, I can probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've booted up in a lodge in my life...so this booting up in the parking lot thing has no impact on me personally.


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## Newpylong (Sep 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Driving 15 minutes in ski boots on mountain roads seems rather risky.
> 
> I've heard people joke about that as a thing, but I didnt know it was actually a thing.



It is an awful idea that if god forbid something happens, you would be charged with reckless driving at minimum.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 29, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> It is an awful idea that if god forbid something happens, you would be charged with reckless driving at minimum.




agreed its a bad idea but I dont think its illegal.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 29, 2020)

My issue with booting up in the parking lot isn't the boots.  It's everything else.  As primarily a day trip skier my daily commute is anywhere from 1:15 to 2:15 each time I ski.    I'm typically not wearing ski pants, socks, mid-layers etc. on my way too and from the mountain.  Just easier to have everything in a bag and get ready in the lodge.  This is even more the case with young kids. I'll adapt, but it's going to be a pain in the ass helping my five year old get his boots on in the lot.


When I lived in Stowe, different story. I'd drive the 10 minutes to the hill with my boots on even with a manual transmission car.  It's really not too difficult once you get the hang of it. Just angle your feet and press gas, break, clutch with the heel of your boot.

Not sure I'm interested in the sole protectors for my ski boots.  I've had them before, but if I don't have a bag in the lodge to put them in, I'm not interested in putting the mud and snow covered devices in my jacket pocket.

One thing is for certain, ski in / out property owners will be able to charge a huge premium this season.

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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 29, 2020)

I always boot up at the car at my local hill no big deal.  I only live 4 miles away and I just put the boots on when I get there no real need to drive with them on to save 4 minutes...


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## NYDB (Sep 29, 2020)

I was just thinking that in Vermont, isn't there a no idling law ?   

I wonder if they are going to enforce it this year for people heading back to the vehicles for a warm up or lunch break.


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## drjeff (Sep 29, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> I was just thinking that in Vermont, isn't there a no idling law ?
> 
> I wonder if they are going to enforce it this year for people heading back to the vehicles for a warm up or lunch break.



Not sure if it's an actual law or just a "suggested" thing.

I do know for a fact, that the local bus system that serves my condo complex (and many other in the Mount Snow area) does leave their buses idling in the 10-15 minutes they're parked in the base area between their runs to the condos, and they're a state and federally subsidized public transportation entity for Windham County, VT, so I'm guessing that if it was a state regulation, they'd have to comply.  

Additionally around the shifts that they're operating, or if its during day work and the operators are taking a quick break, you'll see the cats idling for sure. Diesel fuel especially, which we all know the cats operate on, as well as the buses that make up the transportation fleet in Windham County , can certainly have problems in the cold


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## flakeydog (Sep 29, 2020)

Here you go, have at it...

_Title 23 : Motor Vehicles 
Chapter 013 : Operation Of Vehicles 
Subchapter 011 : Miscellaneous Rules 
(Cite as: 23 V.S.A. § 1110) 

§ 1110. Prohibited idling of motor vehicles
(a)(1) General prohibition. A person shall not cause or permit operation of the primary propulsion engine of a motor vehicle for more than five minutes in any 60-minute period, while the vehicle is stationary.

(2) Exceptions. The five-minute limitation of subdivision (1) of this subsection shall not apply when:
(A) a military vehicle; an ambulance; a police, fire, or rescue vehicle; or another vehicle used in a public safety or emergency capacity idles as necessary for the conduct of official operations;
(B) an armored vehicle idles while a person remains inside the vehicle to guard the contents or while the vehicle is being loaded or unloaded;
(C) a motor vehicle idles because of highway traffic conditions, at the direction of an official traffic control device or signal, or at the direction of a law enforcement official;
(D) the health or safety of a vehicle occupant requires idling, or when a passenger bus idles as necessary to maintain passenger comfort while nondriver passengers are on board;
(E) idling is necessary to operate safety equipment such as windshield defrosters, and operation of the equipment is needed to address specific safety concerns;
(F) idling of the primary propulsion engine is needed to power work-related mechanical, hydraulic, or electrical operations other than propulsion, such as mixing or processing cargo or straight truck refrigeration, and the motor vehicle is idled to power such work-related operations;
(G) a motor vehicle of a model year prior to 2018 with an occupied sleeper berth compartment is idled for purposes of air-conditioning or heating during a rest or sleep period;
(H) a motor vehicle idles as necessary for maintenance, service, repair, or diagnostic purposes or as part of a State or federal inspection;
(I) a school bus idles on school grounds in compliance with rules adopted pursuant to the provisions of subsection 1282(f) of this title;
(J) the idling of vehicles at the place of business of a registered motor vehicle dealer is necessary to maintain the premises of the place of business; or
(K) a motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less idles on a driveway or parking area on private property.

(b) Operation of an auxiliary power unit, generator set, or other mobile idle reduction technology is an alternative to operating the primary propulsion engine of a motor vehicle and is not subject to the prohibition of subdivision (a)(1) of this section.

(c) In addition to the exemptions set forth in subdivision (a)(2) of this section, the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles, in consultation with the Secretary of Natural Resources, may adopt rules governing times or circumstances when operation of the primary propulsion engine of a stationary motor vehicle is reasonably required.

(d) A person adjudicated of violating subdivision (a)(1) of this section shall be:
(1) assessed a penalty of not more than $10.00, which penalty shall be exempt from surcharges under 13 V.S.A. § 7282(a), for a first violation;
(2) assessed a penalty of not more than $50.00 for a second violation; and
(3) assessed a penalty of not more than $100.00 for a third or subsequent violation. (Added 2013, No. 57, § 28, eff. May 1, 2014.)_


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## Not Sure (Sep 29, 2020)

(D) the health or safety of a vehicle occupant requires idling, or when a passenger bus idles as necessary to maintain passenger comfort while nondriver passengers are on board;

This is the work around...............I'll get Covid if I go in the Lodge


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## skiur (Sep 29, 2020)

I have driven in ski boots, not more than a couple miles.  It really depends on the car.  SUV's and minivans aren't that bad.  Sedans are not really feasible.  Obviously anything with a clutch is impossible.


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## andrec10 (Sep 29, 2020)

skiur said:


> I have driven in ski boots, not more than a couple miles.  It really depends on the car.  SUV's and minivans aren't that bad.  Sedans are not really feasible.  Obviously anything with a clutch is impossible.



Never say never. Had a friend that lived less than a mile from Huntah and drove his standard Toyota Pickup in ski boots.


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## catskillman (Sep 29, 2020)

[QUOTE=deadheadskier;1050547


Not sure I'm interested in the sole protectors for my ski boots.  I've had them before, but if I don't have a bag in the lodge to put them in, I'm not interested in putting the mud and snow covered devices in my jacket pocket.

I put them around my leg under my ski pants.  Works great, especially if you have a walk to the lift in Europe somewhere, or have to ride a bus.


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## cdskier (Sep 29, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Not sure I'm interested in the sole protectors for my ski boots.  I've had them before, but if I don't have a bag in the lodge to put them in, I'm not interested in putting the mud and snow covered devices in my jacket pocket.



Luckily I ski with a backpack all the time, so they just go in there. Usually they're mostly just wet after walking up to the lift (walking on snow in the base area around the lifts helps clean any mud/dirt off). Bang them together a couple times and the snow comes off. For someone worried about them being dirty though, you could always just keep a plastic bag with you to put them in inside your pocket so the pocket itself doesn't get dirty.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 29, 2020)

How much walking does one have to do to destroy ski boots?   Seems like a solution looking for a legitimate problem unless you do an awful LOT of walking in ski boots. Like over-the-top.


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## EPB (Sep 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> How much walking does one have to do to destroy ski boots?   Seems like a solution looking for a legitimate problem unless you do a LOT of walking in ski boots.


I certainly don't have a discreet answer for you, but I will say walking on patio though villages/streets out west does noticeable damage. If you plan on doing your days at Plattekill, you need not worry, but if you plan on putting a couple miles on pavement walking from your car to the snow this year, it's a different story.

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## zyk (Sep 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> How much walking does one have to do to destroy ski boots?   Seems like a solution looking for a legitimate problem unless you do an awful LOT of walking in ski boots. Like over-the-top.



I destroyed my boots by walking in them as I always boot up at the car.  It took 10 years or roughly 350 ski days.  If replacement sole plates were still available they could be saved.


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## mikec142 (Sep 30, 2020)

I've been booting up in the parking lot for years.  There are advantages and disadvantages.  Depends a lot if you're planning to stay for Apres where it would be nice to change.  And even when we do that, I just take a walk to the car and put my skis away and do a quick change at the car.  I'm not a fan of carrying a lot of extra gear either to the lodge or on me as I ski.  Clearly though, I'm going to have to get used to carrying a few more things this season.  Maybe a sandwich.  Honestly though, I think the biggest issue for me is going to be hydration.  I can't imagine carrying a bottle of water.


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## nhskier1969 (Sep 30, 2020)

zyk said:


> I destroyed my boots by walking in them as I always boot up at the car.  It took 10 years or roughly 350 ski days.  If replacement sole plates were still available they could be saved.



Renting on the shuttle route at Sugarbush, going up and down to Bravo 50 times a year did a number on my boots.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 30, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Renting on the shuttle route at Sugarbush, going up and down to Bravo 50 times a year did a number on my boots.


Anyone tried this type of device? Seem kinda like creepy-crawlers for adding to regular boots for walking on ice.
https://www.rei.com/product/435109/seirus-cat-tracks


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 30, 2020)

yes I said on page 21 that I've used Cat Tracks for years.  I had to replace my soles on my fisher ranger vacuum boots after about 7 years because I didn't always use them.  SOmetimes I park 20 feet from the snow, so they don't get used then.


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## kbroderick (Sep 30, 2020)

skiur said:


> I have driven in ski boots, not more than a couple miles.  It really depends on the car.  SUV's and minivans aren't that bad.  Sedans are not really feasible.  Obviously anything with a clutch is impossible.



I've driven a five-speed XTerra in ski boots plenty of times. The only significant issue with that particular setup was catching the buckles on the plastic around the footwell.

With a manual Subaru and tele boots, it does take an extra bit of care to get the clutch depressed all the way to the floor so you can start the car, but it's entirely doable.

Upshifting a motorcycle is a bit tricky; downshifting isn't so bad, but you obviously don't have a lot of feel for it. I've been told it's not as bad with a heel-toe shifter.

Definitely easier with an automatic with a lot of space around the pedals and traction control/ABS, though.


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## cdskier (Sep 30, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Anyone tried this type of device? Seem kinda like creepy-crawlers for adding to regular boots for walking on ice.
> https://www.rei.com/product/435109/seirus-cat-tracks



Yes...those are the exact ones I use.


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## catskillman (Sep 30, 2020)

Wearing down your boots can also throw off your alignment in your bindings.  this can be dangerous, especially if you have had your boots beveleved due to canting issues.  Some canting issues are also fixed with shims, but very often boots are shaved for alignment that a custom foot bed can't fix.

Water - do not carry a water bottle, use a bladder type thing.  I know 2 people who broke ribs landing on a water bottle in their jacket


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## machski (Sep 30, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Anyone tried this type of device? Seem kinda like creepy-crawlers for adding to regular boots for walking on ice.
> https://www.rei.com/product/435109/seirus-cat-tracks


Yes, used for years as well.  Have used early season up/down the Killington stairway to North Ridge and used them late season to hike over Locke to White Cap after Heat closed to ski then back across Locke Townhomes to Barker.  They work quite well, bit they are not "locked" on and have had on occasion where one comes off mid-hike.  Overall have protected my toe/heel plates very well and add substantial traction, especially when I was in Atomic Redsters that were basically race plug type boots without any rubber on the footbases.

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## skiur (Sep 30, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> I've driven a five-speed XTerra in ski boots plenty of times. The only significant issue with that particular setup was catching the buckles on the plastic around the footwell.
> 
> With a manual Subaru and tele boots, it does take an extra bit of care to get the clutch depressed all the way to the floor so you can start the car, but it's entirely doable.
> 
> ...



In my old subaru I couldn't get the clutch to the floor with my ski boots on.


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## dlague (Sep 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Driving 15 minutes in ski boots on mountain roads seems rather risky.
> 
> I've heard people joke about that as a thing, but I didnt know it was actually a thing.



I have hit the throttle and the brake at the same time with ski boots on and scared the shit out of my wife 


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## Cornhead (Sep 30, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Upshifting a motorcycle is a bit tricky; downshifting isn't so bad, but you obviously don't have a lot of feel for it. I've been told it's not as bad with a heel-toe shifter.
> 
> .



Are you really riding a motorcycle in ski boots? How about a bicycle? Unicycle?

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## nhskier1969 (Sep 30, 2020)

Just a thought, why couldn't the ski areas have a lot more benches, picnic tables etc next to the parking lot.  Then have coin operated lockers outside of their building.  That way people could put ski boots on closer to the base, then dump their crap in a outdoor locker.  While using the outdoor locker, people can be polite and social distancing while going to their lockers.


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## skiur (Oct 1, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Just a thought, why couldn't the ski areas have a lot more benches, picnic tables etc next to the parking lot.  Then have coin operated lockers outside of their building.  That way people could put ski boots on closer to the base, then dump their crap in a outdoor locker.  While using the outdoor locker, people can be polite and social distancing while going to their lockers.



I would think the coin slots and locking mechanism would freeze up during the new england winter making the lockers useless.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 1, 2020)

skiur said:


> I would think the coin slots and locking mechanism would freeze up during the new england winter making the lockers useless.


That and it would probably get covered in snow where it would become useless. 

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## kbroderick (Oct 1, 2020)

Cornhead said:


> Are you really riding a motorcycle in ski boots? How about a bicycle? Unicycle?
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) Plus using AlpineZone mobile app



Given the results when I tried riding a unicycle in normal footwear, I definitely wouldn't want to try in ski boots.

Motorcycle? Yes, for short distances (2-3 miles). Much longer than that and it's worth the time to change in and out of proper motorcycle boots. One of the guys I worked with at Killington rode home to Pittsfield in race boots, though, after his significant other forgot that his street shoes were in her car and left early.


I haven't tried a bicycle, but I've seen evidence of it being done (and apparently in race boots):


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## slatham (Oct 1, 2020)

https://www.bromley.com/the-mountain/media/press-releases/covid-19-response/


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## abc (Oct 1, 2020)

skiur said:


> I would think the coin slots and locking mechanism would freeze up during the new england winter making the lockers useless.





ALLSKIING said:


> That and it would probably get covered in snow where it would become useless.


Big Sky has an outdoor bag check. 

Don't see why they can't do the same. Especially if they're going to do outdoor BBQ


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## dlague (Oct 1, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Just a thought, why couldn't the ski areas have a lot more benches, picnic tables etc next to the parking lot.  Then have coin operated lockers outside of their building.  That way people could put ski boots on closer to the base, then dump their crap in a outdoor locker.  While using the outdoor locker, people can be polite and social distancing while going to their lockers.





Why invest in something that is temporary!  Your stuff would get cold in any case and on days where it is snowing and blustery they might even freeze.  

I would not be surprised if they set up tents with a bag check.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 1, 2020)

dlague said:


> Why invest in something that is temporary!  Your stuff would get cold in any case and on days where it is snowing and blustery they might even freeze.
> 
> I would not be surprised if they set up tents with a bag check.
> 
> ...



I think it would be a wise investment.  Once this is over next year, they could bring the lockers inside.  When you go out west, you never see day bags under tables or hanging up in the cafeteria or restaurants.  They have a dedicated room with Lockers so there won't be clutter in the cafeteria.  Infact if you have ever been to Snowmass, they have lockers set up right outside the shuttle drop off.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 1, 2020)

Should be interesting how ski areas manage their bottom line this year. 
Opening later in season and closing earlier in spring
Cut their snow making budgets down
start charging $30 for a cheeseburger instead of $15
Maybe charge for premium parking at the base.
Also I know a lot of resorts hire seasonal foreign students each year.


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## dlague (Oct 1, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I think it would be a wise investment.  Once this is over next year, they could bring the lockers inside.  When you go out west, you never see day bags under tables or hanging up in the cafeteria or restaurants.  They have a dedicated room with Lockers so there won't be clutter in the cafeteria.  Infact if you have ever been to Snowmass, they have lockers set up right outside the shuttle drop off.



I have skied 14 ski areas in Colorado and I do not see an abundance of lockers. Keystone has may be 100 or so on the mountain house side and maybe 50 on the village side.  Vail has some outdoor locker areas spread out.  Breck has some at each base area.  But a large number either boot up at their car or at the lodge.


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## abc (Oct 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Also I know a lot of resorts hire seasonal foreign students each year.


Most of the foreign students had gone back home.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 5, 2020)

Some information about NH ski area guidance:
https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/05/cloth-face-coverings-required-as-part-of-nh-ski-area-guidance/


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## machski (Oct 5, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Some information about NH ski area guidance:
> https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/05/cloth-face-coverings-required-as-part-of-nh-ski-area-guidance/


That story missed the biggest nugget.  In the screening questions, they include if you have a RUNNY NOSE you are asked to not ski that day!  Didn't realize that was a symptom of Covid.  Ridiculous, it's winter and we are being asked to be outside ALL SKI DAY as much as possible.  Who would get a runny nose from that?

https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=860

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## 2Planker (Oct 5, 2020)

We'll be firing up the Mini  Winnie for our day trips...
Perfect for booting up, eating lunch, BBQ and even a lil parking lot apres ski...

Have 2 friends who alreay want to rent it out for Xmas & Feb vacation weeks.
We'll have to see about that....


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## 2Planker (Oct 5, 2020)

I know that was posted already But this is the better article about NH's Plans

http://indepthnh.org/2020/09/24/nh-ski-season-trail-map-outlined-to-reopen-task-force/


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## dblskifanatic (Oct 5, 2020)

I mentioned this earlier but I will be curious as to how many people will wear backpacks and ...... how many will get caught on lifts?


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## Killingtime (Oct 5, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> I mentioned this earlier but I will be curious as to how many people will wear backpacks and ...... how many will get caught on lifts?



Ha! I've never witnessed that before until it happened to a friends wife. Freaked her out. Thankfully the lift operator was on the ball and saw what was happening. I've never worn a backpack on the mountain but probably will this coming season. Most likely just hold it in my lap on the way up to avoid problems, but yeah it will be an interesting year.


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## Smellytele (Oct 5, 2020)

Killingtime said:


> Ha! I've never witnessed that before until it happened to a friends wife. Freaked her out. Thankfully the lift operator was on the ball and saw what was happening. I've never worn a backpack on the mountain but probably will this coming season. Most likely just hold it in my lap on the way up to avoid problems, but yeah it will be an interesting year.



Should have room next to you unless skiing with 4 or on a double 


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## dblskifanatic (Oct 5, 2020)

Killingtime said:


> Ha! I've never witnessed that before until it happened to a friends wife. Freaked her out. Thankfully the lift operator was on the ball and saw what was happening. I've never worn a backpack on the mountain but probably will this coming season. Most likely just hold it in my lap on the way up to avoid problems, but yeah it will be an interesting year.



Many of the Colorado ski areas have signs asking people to remove their back packs before they get on the lift.  I do that as well when I have a pack.  There is only on lift at Loveland with a safety bar sitting on all the others with a pack on feels sketchy.


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## Smellytele (Oct 5, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Many of the Colorado ski areas have signs asking people to remove their back packs before they get on the lift.  I do that as well when I have a pack.  There is only on lift at Loveland with a safety bar sitting on all the others with a pack on feels sketchy.



Agree on that. And having it on with a bar squishes you up against it. 


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## x10003q (Oct 5, 2020)

machski said:


> That story missed the biggest nugget.  In the screening questions, they include if you have a RUNNY NOSE you are asked to not ski that day!  Didn't realize that was a symptom of Covid.  Ridiculous, it's winter and we are being asked to be outside ALL SKI DAY as much as possible.  Who would get a runny nose from that?
> 
> https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=860
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



The runny nose question is absurd. I have a deviated septum and allergies. My nose runs all year around. It is worse in the winter. The longer I am out in the cold the more my nose runs.  If they use this there will be a lot of people not skiing. 

Here is another question - will they send people home with runny noses who are already skiing? If not, what is the difference between skiing and a long walk across the parking lot before skiing to get your nose running?


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## machski (Oct 6, 2020)

x10003q said:


> The runny nose question is absurd. I have a deviated septum and allergies. My nose runs all year around. It is worse in the winter. The longer I am out in the cold the more my nose runs.  If they use this there will be a lot of people not skiing.
> 
> Here is another question - will they send people home with runny noses who are already skiing? If not, what is the difference between skiing and a long walk across the parking lot before skiing to get your nose running?


Exactly.  Well, I certainly won't test that, I'll be stopping mid trail to blow my nose this winter and not in eyeshot of a lift base/top or facility.

The other question is, if we have to "certify" the Covid questionaire prior to being able to access our pass/ticket daily, how will they implement that?  Will the resorts be responsible for this (seems most likely)?  With RFID, it is conceivable they could tie the daily online questionaire to your pass/ticket card and if it hasn't been accepted online, lock your pass out of the gates.  Fun stuff...

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## zoomzoom (Oct 6, 2020)

oh, oh.   looks like our neighbor's infection rates are going in the wrong direction and the gov is reacting as promised.  as is the mayor of nyc. 

https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/06/gov-scott-to-hold-pandemic-press-conference/

here's the travel/quarantine map, updated every tues.  much worse than a few weeks ago.  mass, conn and metro nyc folks are having probs and it's not looking good.

https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> oh, oh.   looks like our neighbor's infection rates are going in the wrong direction and the gov is reacting as promised.  as is the mayor of nyc.
> 
> https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/06/gov-scott-to-hold-pandemic-press-conference/
> 
> ...


I am yellow now...


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## 2Planker (Oct 6, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I am yellow now...



 Boston is now High Risk RED Zone.

Heard today that Maine is about to place MA back on the Q list


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## machski (Oct 6, 2020)

We're red now for VT.  Anyone else notice 3 counties in VT would be yellow now too?  Such hypocrisy.

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## cdskier (Oct 6, 2020)

machski said:


> We're red now for VT.  Anyone else notice 3 counties in VT would be yellow now too?  Such hypocrisy.



Addison in VT would be red, not just yellow. Addison's "active cases per million" count is higher than all but 2 NJ counties...


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## ss20 (Oct 6, 2020)

Shouldn't the quarantine threshold for VT increase if the number of cases WITHIN THE STATE is increasing?


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## machski (Oct 6, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Shouldn't the quarantine threshold for VT increase if the number of cases WITHIN THE STATE is increasing?


Nope, but that is why this has always been a hypocrisy.

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## flakeydog (Oct 6, 2020)

My thinking here is that the goal in VT is to keep cases as low as possible.  If there is a hot spot, we deal with it an put it out and reduce caseload back to where it was.  

I would submit to you the "hypocrisy" would be to open the floodgates when Vermont's rate rises to levels that match other surrounding areas that were previously not allowed in.  It would be ludicrous to relax the standards on cross-state travel so that we may bring Vermont's caseload in line with our neighbors.  This is not the kind of wealth we are interested in sharing at the moment.


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## Edd (Oct 7, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> My thinking here is that the goal in VT is to keep cases as low as possible.  If there is a hot spot, we deal with it an put it out and reduce caseload back to where it was.
> 
> I would submit to you the "hypocrisy" would be to open the floodgates when Vermont's rate rises to levels that match other surrounding areas that were previously not allowed in.  It would be ludicrous to relax the standards on cross-state travel so that we may bring Vermont's caseload in line with our neighbors.  This is not the kind of wealth we are interested in sharing at the moment.



Good post.


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## Smellytele (Oct 7, 2020)

I know it was discussed before but will ski areas be policing who comes from which county or was it said just hotels?


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## zoomzoom (Oct 7, 2020)

addison is a relatively sparsely populated county of 37k people, that had an outbreak at champlain orchards monday.  26 new cases that they boxed in w/contact tracing and quarantining.  gov doing a great job.

edit:  i know someone that works on k-tron's patrol.  at a meeting last sat, management said they're hoping to break even this year.  so, best case is no profits this FY and likely no investments next year.


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## drjeff (Oct 7, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> My thinking here is that the goal in VT is to keep cases as low as possible.  If there is a hot spot, we deal with it an put it out and reduce caseload back to where it was.
> 
> I would submit to you the "hypocrisy" would be to open the floodgates when Vermont's rate rises to levels that match other surrounding areas that were previously not allowed in.  It would be ludicrous to relax the standards on cross-state travel so that we may bring Vermont's caseload in line with our neighbors.  This is not the kind of wealth we are interested in sharing at the moment.



I wonder then if part of VT's strategy will be to require mandatory vaccination of it's residents if/when a vaccine hits the market? Since to some extent, even with vaccination of others who may travel to VT, it's not like this virus will be going away anytime soon, and when you look at the effects that it is without a doubt having on the economic livelihood of VT, at some point, VT is going to have alter their policies to allow a more tourism, which is and always has been for a longtime, a key tenant of a significant portion of the overall VT economy on a year round basis


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> addison is a relatively sparsely populated county of 37k people, that had an outbreak at champlain orchards monday.  26 new cases that they boxed in w/contact tracing and quarantining.  gov doing a great job.



Addison is a great example of just how flawed the formula VT uses to generate the map is and determine what counties are "safe". Overall data shows 27 cases in Addison in the past 7 days and 28 cases in the past 14 days (so apparently 2 cases outside of the apple orchard outbreak). Yet VT's own calculation that they use in the creation of the map says they should have 66 active cases in that county. This shows how VT's calculation is significantly overestimating the number of active cases (unless you truly believe there are more undetected cases in Addison than there are actual detected cases).


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## Edd (Oct 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> This shows how VT's calculation is significantly overestimating the number of active cases (unless you truly believe there are more undetected cases in Addison than there are actual detected cases).



Wouldn’t there be, though? Aren’t there always going to be undetected cases that are a risk for further spread? If that is the case, I think it makes sense to assume a certain percentage of those and proceed accordingly.


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## drjeff (Oct 7, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wouldn’t there be, though? Aren’t there always going to be undetected cases that are a risk for further spread? If that is the case, I think it makes sense to assume a certain percentage of those and proceed accordingly.



Most certainly there are undetected cases. One could probably make the argument that maybe even a majority of cases are either asymptomatic and/or minimal symptoms at best.

That certainly brings up the question and dilemma of how much of a societal restriction do we place on essentially everyone, when the reality is that societal restrictions are probably too aggressive for many, but certainly warranted for some specific demographics. Given the difference in personal risk that we all have, and the ability (for some at least) to objectively look at the data and formulate what their own personal risk situation is, are we heading towards the time when there may very well be the realization that this "one size fits all" approach that is being taken in each state, may not be the "best" approach for the majority of society?  I'm sure that you could ask 100 people and get 100 different answers for that question, none of which would be right for all and none of which would be wrong for all


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## cdskier (Oct 7, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wouldn’t there be, though? Aren’t there always going to be undetected cases that are a risk for further spread? If that is the case, I think it makes sense to assume a certain percentage of those and proceed accordingly.



To some degree, yes, but 26 of the 28 are isolated cases. Those other 2 aren't causing 38 other hidden cases. And before someone says "well Addison is unique because there was an isolated outbreak in a contained area"...that happens quite often. There have been numerous examples on this board alone of people saying things like "my county numbers went up this week due to an outbreak at a prison or nursing home in the county". 

There's just very little point in using a methodology that tries to predict something that is really quite unknown. The methodology VT uses makes the assumption that every infected person automatically infects X number of other people which is a flawed assumption. A methodology that is based on purely actual known data would be much better (i.e. testing positivity rates and 7/14 day rolling averages of reporting new cases like most other states use). VT has instead chosen to use a methodology that it is quite impossible to prove how accurate it is and that just causes people to ignore the rules because they make little sense and everyone simply says "that data doesn't seem right".


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## ScottySkis (Oct 12, 2020)

Platty officaly virus plan on the website
No surprise

Those who love Plattekill. Their season pass and Covid guidelines are out. Pretty reasonable with lodge and outside heated food court available. No advance reservations needed. Pass holders have priority. They are going ahead with some alpine and kids programs although with some limitations. 
They are selling season parking pass as well, is this the upper parking lot? 
https://www.plattekill.com/covid-19e


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## dlague (Oct 12, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wouldn’t there be, though? Aren’t there always going to be undetected cases that are a risk for further spread? If that is the case, I think it makes sense to assume a certain percentage of those and proceed accordingly.



CDC estimates that the current number of people affected by COVID-19 is actually 10 times the actual number they have since many were either asymptomatic or had minor symptoms and never were tested!  


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## skef (Oct 12, 2020)

I find this somewhat encouraging (for skiing).
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/business/disney-world-coronavirus.html


> As tumultuous as the three months since the reopening have been, however, public health officials and Disney World’s unions say there have been no coronavirus outbreaks among workers or guests. So far, Disney’s wide-ranging safety measures appear to be working.


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## Edd (Oct 12, 2020)

cdskier said:


> To some degree, yes, but 26 of the 28 are isolated cases. Those other 2 aren't causing 38 other hidden cases. And before someone says "well Addison is unique because there was an isolated outbreak in a contained area"...that happens quite often. There have been numerous examples on this board alone of people saying things like "my county numbers went up this week due to an outbreak at a prison or nursing home in the county".
> 
> There's just very little point in using a methodology that tries to predict something that is really quite unknown. The methodology VT uses makes the assumption that every infected person automatically infects X number of other people which is a flawed assumption. A methodology that is based on purely actual known data would be much better (i.e. testing positivity rates and 7/14 day rolling averages of reporting new cases like most other states use). VT has instead chosen to use a methodology that it is quite impossible to prove how accurate it is and that just causes people to ignore the rules because they make little sense and everyone simply says "that data doesn't seem right".



Not sure about “very little point”.  I’d say it’s better to predict a number of unknowns (within reason), than to bury your head and act as if there’re no unknown cases. 

I doubt we disagree much on this issue, but I do not envy the officials that have to make these decisions. It’s difficult for me to critique their reasoning when I don’t think I’d do any better.


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## cdskier (Oct 12, 2020)

Edd said:


> Not sure about “very little point”.  I’d say it’s better to predict a number of unknowns (within reason), than to bury your head and act as if there’re no unknown cases.
> 
> I doubt we disagree much on this issue, but I do not envy the officials that have to make these decisions. It’s difficult for me to critique their reasoning when I don’t think I’d do any better.



I agree that we probably agree. I'm certainly not saying there's no unknown cases. I'm simply saying there's no point in using a number you don't accurately know as the basis for your determination on whether a given county is "safe". The problem is you're using numbers people don't understand and that they're not seeing in any other data reported by anyone else. Therefore it leads people to believe it is inaccurate data (maybe they're accurately calculating undetected cases, but maybe they aren't...either way you have no idea).

You can both be cautious/conservative (as VT wants to do) and use only real actual data such as test positivity rates and the actual number of positive cases over a given time-frame. To be cautious, you simply adjust the threshold. So for example NY/NJ/CT typically use an average of 10 cases per day per 100K over a 7 day period as their basis for which states should have quarantines. VT could use 5. My point is simply at least people would see data matching the numbers they're seeing everywhere else (NY Times, Johns Hopkins, local/state Health Departments, etc) and would be less likely to say "VT's map/numbers are wrong. My county isn't really as high as they're saying so I'm going to just go to VT anyway".


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## dlague (Oct 12, 2020)

Well this is interesting!  Hopefully no more shut downs!


https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...s-as-primary-virus-control-method/ar-BB19TBUo


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 12, 2020)

My favorite part of the Vermont map is the fact they use a shade of blue for Vermont counties, not matter how bad the COVID19 gets there.  

As if Vermonters wouldn't know where they live if they used the same colors they did for the rest of the northeast?   
No, likely because someone at State of Vermont had a _Psychology of Color_ unit in their marketing classes.


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## Not Sure (Oct 12, 2020)

dlague said:


> CDC estimates that the current number of people affected by COVID-19 is actually 10 times the actual number they have since many were either asymptomatic or had minor symptoms and never were tested!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I have a friend who put off a minor surgery from March .He was required to be tested before surgery last month and tested positive no symptoms at all .


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## 1dog (Oct 12, 2020)

dlague said:


> Well this is interesting!  Hopefully no more shut downs!
> 
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...s-as-primary-virus-control-method/ar-BB19TBUo
> ...



Lockdowns do seem to prolong the spread - Sweden had it pretty bad for a while , but now are below the rest of Euro-Zone and they never closed down completely. ( and yes, understand they are more homogeneous than US,w what 5-7milliion population?) 
I live in a yellow zone ( today) but some of my ski buds are in red zones - and test every week for their jobs. They are supposed to quarantine? 

I feel for the sugery guy who put it off - one of my customers in medical field had a great point - 'we should see a definite drop in influenza this year just due to masks and hand-washing'. 

It still a good visual to have Americans - no matter what your leanings are - to see an overweight, not that healthy 74+ year old get it and recover - so far.

Same with Christie  - how do cap-intensive, seasonal businesses survive though? I think its gotta be tough with debt service and those employment numbers from Jay - down quite a bit. No border opening and no HB work visas for help.


Yet stock market keeps moving and outlook is mostly positive. How can that be?

Its a baffling world these days . .


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## Not Sure (Oct 12, 2020)

WHO back peddling on Lock downs .


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## abc (Oct 12, 2020)

1dog said:


> Yet stock market keeps moving and outlook is mostly positive. How can that be?


Stock market doesn't always reflect economy. In fact, sometimes it doesn't bear any resemblance to real economy. 

Did you notice your money in the bank is earner zero interests? Well, maybe you'll do better pulling the money and pile it into the stock market? Anyway, that's what many people are doing, and the all the money flowing into the stock market is keeping it up.


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## Mailman (Oct 13, 2020)

Vermont's metric of active cases per million of population seems to be flawed given the number of known active cases is largely driven by the volume of tests administered.

For example, today's statistics have VT and NY with similar positive test rates over the past 7 days.  VT has recorded a 1.1% positive rate in that period and NY has recorded 1.2%.  However, during the same period, NY has recorded 7.1 new cases per 100,000 while VT has recorded only 1.9.

Dividing the number of positive tests by the positive rate, it is apparent that in that period, NY tested approx 600 people per 100,000 of population, while VT tested only around 170 per 100,000 of population.

If the positive test rates are similar, it is reasonable to assume that that the number of active cases per 100,000 (or per million) are somewhat similar, but if the testing program in one state is significantly more rigorous than the other, the number of confirmed active cases is going to be higher in the state that has the higher testing frequency.

I think it's probable that the actual numbers of cases per million are pretty similar across the areas VT has included in the map, and that the higher numbers of active cases shown on the map are the result of higher testing rates in other states.  This is probably why most travel restrictions are driven by the positive test rate in addition to number of cases (either a ratio of new cases or total active cases metric) to provide a more balanced and accurate view of what is really happening.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 13, 2020)

1dog said:


> Yet *stock market keeps moving and outlook is mostly positive. How can that be? * Its a baffling world these days . .



Because the US economy is doing far better than anyone could have possible imagined.  

Obviously you have trouble spots like airlines, cruises, hotels, etc.., but generally speaking nobody thought the economy could have held up as well as it has.  So there's that, and markets always look forward, and not only will 2021 have some of the easiest YoY comps in decades, but there is a belief that there will be greater pent-up-demand for all sorts of consumer behaviours than at any time since perhaps WWII.


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## flakeydog (Oct 13, 2020)

Mailman said:


> If the positive test rates are similar, it is reasonable to assume that that the number of active cases per 100,000 (or per million) are somewhat similar, but if the testing program in one state is significantly more rigorous than the other, the number of confirmed active cases is going to be higher in the state that has the higher testing frequency.



Actually, If I am not mistaken, the positivity rate as it relates to the overall testing rate is somewhat important.  As the testing rate (as a function of the total population) increases, the expectation is that the positivity rate would decrease.  If the positivity rate increases or even stays flat as a greater percentage of the population is tested, it usually suggests that there is still community spread at or above the level of the group that required testing.  

Think of it this way, the population we test first (especially when testing resources are scarce) are those we feel require it- those with symptoms or those that we feel were exposed to others that had the virus.  Once that population has been tested, we expand our reach to include others in the community where it would be nice to know if the virus was present.  This would include groups like returning students, an entire staff of a company, or anyone else that felt they wanted to be tested.  If the virus is not spreading in the community, the positivity rate should continue to fall as more and more people get tested.  

If NY tests 3X more people (normalized per capita) than VT and it has the same positivity rate, that tells me there is more virus present and yet undiscovered in NY than VT hence the conclusion that the average person from NY has a higher risk of exposure from his/her surrounding community than the average person in VT.  We are trying to keep COVID out of VT, not establish some sort of viral equilibrium across state lines.


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## jimk (Oct 14, 2020)

1dog said:


> It still a good visual to have Americans - no matter what your leanings are - to see an overweight, not that healthy 74+ year old get it and recover - so far.
> 
> Same with Christie
> Yet stock market keeps moving and outlook is mostly positive. How can that be?
> ...



My 75 year old brother with a pacemaker, and about as overweight as the prez, tested positive for it on sep 1st.  he had two days where he was feeling poorly enough to stay down in bed, but otherwise back to normal in about a week and a half.  Is there a less deadly mutation out there now that people are more commonly getting, I don't know?  Had a lengthy conversation with him about it all.  One of his statements was that he met the monster and the monster wasn't so bad.  But he's as mystified by it as the rest of us, because an acquaintance of his (that he was not in contact with) died from it at the same time he was recovering from it.


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## drjeff (Oct 14, 2020)

jimk said:


> My 75 year old brother with a pacemaker, and about as overweight as the prez, tested positive for it on sep 1st.  he had two days where he was feeling poorly enough to stay down in bed, but otherwise back to normal in about a week and a half.  Is there a less deadly mutation out there now that people are more commonly getting, I don't know?  Had a lengthy conversation with him about it all.  One of his statements was that he met the monster and the monster wasn't so bad.  But he's as mystified by it as the rest of us, because an acquaintance of his (that he was not in contact with) died from it at the same time he was recovering from it.



The reality is that viruses, on a basic cellular level, want to live. And what historically has happened many times over the years, is a virus that may initially be very potent with a high mortality rate of the host it infects (and hence when the host dies, the virus may die as well), often will mutate into a less virulent entity, where the mortality to the host it infects does decrease, thus allowing the virus to "live" on over time.

There was an article in the New York Times about this basic topic in the early Summer if I recall correctly


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## Glade Monkey (Oct 14, 2020)

drjeff said:


> The reality is that viruses, on a basic cellular level, want to live. And what historically has happened many times over the years, is a virus that may initially be very potent with a high mortality rate of the host it infects (and hence when the host dies, the virus may die as well), often will mutate into a less virulent entity, where the mortality to the host it infects does decrease, thus allowing the virus to "live" on over time.
> 
> There was an article in the New York Times about this basic topic in the early Summer if I recall correctly



Latest case of reinfection in US and researchers found two distinct strains of the virus. His second bout was much more severe.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30764-7/fulltext


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## Harvey (Oct 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Because the US economy is doing far better than anyone could have possible imagined.



We spent 3 trillion on Covid in maybe 3 months. (for reference we spent 6 trillion on the Iraq war over more than a decade.)

That could have something to do with it.

"Better" is relative. Highest unemployment ever, by a big margin. If you are unemployed and/or work in an industry that is shuttered, you may have a different view.)


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 14, 2020)

Harvey said:


> We spent 3 trillion on Covid in maybe 3 months. (for reference we spent 6 trillion on the Iraq war over more than a decade.)
> 
> That could have something to do with it.
> 
> "Better" is relative. Highest unemployment ever, by a big margin. If you are unemployed and/or work in an industry that is shuttered, you may have a different view.)



I agree about the unemployment.  I know 8x more people that are unemployed than have the virus.

Also I would like to see how much less the average employed American made this year vs last.

Lastly, I would love to see Heart and flu deaths this year vs previous years.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 14, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Latest case of reinfection in US and researchers found two distinct strains of the virus. His second bout was much more severe.
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30764-7/fulltext



Take this with a big grain of salt.  There has only been one known individual who has been reinfected.  It is very possible that this individual is immunocompromised or has some other peculiarity that does not apply to the public at large.

One person does not a trend make.


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## machski (Oct 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Take this with a big grain of salt.  There has only been one known individual who has been reinfected.  It is very possible that this individual is immunocompromised or has some other peculiarity that does not apply to the public at large.
> 
> One person does not a trend make.


True VTKilarney, but read the article.  They noted no known or found immune compromising issues with this patient.  The authors did note that they may be reporting on a case where the initial infection went dormant and then came back, however they note the mutation seen in the viral samples would show a viral mutation rate previously unseen in Sars-Cov2.

The one thing that surprises me is one possibility left out on why the second symptomatic event may have been worse.  Given the short timeframe, isn't it possible the patient's system was weaken by the first bout and not yet back up to full strength when the second occured?  Could the severity of symptoms not have been due to that rather than the virus being more virolent?

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## BenedictGomez (Oct 15, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> Latest case of reinfection in US and researchers found two distinct strains of the virus. *His second bout was much more severe.*



That's the part I found most odd, as I would have presumed the first SARS infection would have conferred him with a certain degree of cross-reactive immunity to a very similar SARS-COV infection, which, while not protecting him from getting the second infection, one would think it would make it less serious than the first via the recent immunological memory.  I'm sure they're looking hard at analyzing the sequencing as we speak.

That said, there are 1,001 unknown variables in this lone case, so I wouldnt read too much into it either way other than to say it's interesting.  And of course the fact that the media is, once again, using it to scare the ever-loving hell out of as many Americans as they possibly can.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 15, 2020)

This may have been discussed already but I was wondering what the resorts plan to do when we have the -20 below wind chills we get several times per year.  Where are people going to get warm?


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 15, 2020)

your car

Wear better gear

ski harder


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## mikec142 (Oct 15, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> your car
> 
> Wear better gear
> 
> ski harder



Pretty much it.  While it wouldn't be my first choice, I'm okay skiing in the real cold weather.  I bundle up and make a go of it.  I'm sure I'm not the first one to say it, but there's no such thing as bad weather, there's just bad gear.

I'm planning on taking breaks (if needed) in my car.  Certainly not ideal.  But I don't see a ton of great alternatives.

I'd love to see ski areas set up some sort of tent system with outdoor heaters.  But frankly, on real cold and windy days, it won't be much help.


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## Newpylong (Oct 15, 2020)

If there are less tables, (even with the lodges at 50%), there will be more room to go in and warm up. Also, less people will be out riding in general on these days anyway.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 15, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Pretty much it.  While it wouldn't be my first choice, I'm okay skiing in the real cold weather.  I bundle up and make a go of it.  I'm sure I'm not the first one to say it, but there's no such thing as bad weather, there's just bad gear.
> 
> I'm planning on taking breaks (if needed) in my car.  Certainly not ideal.  But I don't see a ton of great alternatives.
> 
> I'd love to see ski areas set up some sort of tent system with outdoor heaters.  But frankly, on real cold and windy days, it won't be much help.




I skied with my family at Ellen a couple years back.  It was one of those 15 below wind chill days.  So I started us out on Lower FIS.  The runout really warmed us up.  But the warmth on those days only last so long.  

Maybe a good year to buy a onesies


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## ss20 (Oct 15, 2020)

Good question about cold temps.  I've always poked my head into a ski patrol hut.  Ski right up to it/ski out of it.  Usually no other guests.  Plenty of warm and comfortable places (lots of huts have rigged up heaters for gloves and coats and such).  If I'm solo its nice because they're usually happy to check you out for frostbite.  I've had a lot of good talks with patrollers this way.  I've gotten some odd looks when I ask if I'm welcome just to warm up but no one's given me the cold shoulder yet.


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## Smellytele (Oct 15, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I'd love to see ski areas set up some sort of tent system with outdoor heaters.  But frankly, on real cold and windy days, it won't be much help.



As far as tents what is the difference when it comes to covid. No different than being inside. I see it can add more space.


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## slatham (Oct 15, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> As far as tents what is the difference when it comes to covid. No different than being inside. I see it can add more space.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Most places I've seen have done open air tents, so basically a roof. I agree, if fully enclosed, well then you're inside. Of course the flip side is its going to be colder than an enclosed tent, but with heaters (and maybe the windward side enclosed) warmer than outside.

Magic is looking at some tents for outside this winter (current tent not built for winter) with heaters.


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## machski (Oct 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Good question about cold temps.  I've always poked my head into a ski patrol hut.  Ski right up to it/ski out of it.  Usually no other guests.  Plenty of warm and comfortable places (lots of huts have rigged up heaters for gloves and coats and such).  If I'm solo its nice because they're usually happy to check you out for frostbite.  I've had a lot of good talks with patrollers this way.  I've gotten some odd looks when I ask if I'm welcome just to warm up but no one's given me the cold shoulder yet.


This could be the year for that cold shoulder.

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## zoomzoom (Oct 15, 2020)

here's the latest seven day increases in covid19 cases, per new england state.  we've had 65 new cases in the last week, with 58 dead total. 
as colder weather arrives, more cases are expected as folks generally spend more time inside. 

https://files.constantcontact.com/a0530340101/8c7e0c80-6295-4200-86e3-100d44c3a94b.pdf


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## Los (Oct 16, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> here's the latest seven day increases in covid19 cases, per new england state.  we've had 65 new cases in the last week, with 58 dead total.
> as colder weather arrives, more cases are expected as folks generally spend more time inside.
> 
> https://files.constantcontact.com/a0530340101/8c7e0c80-6295-4200-86e3-100d44c3a94b.pdf



Patients currently hospitalized... 0 (as in zero, none, no one, not a soul)


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## kingslug (Oct 16, 2020)

Severe weather will definitely affect my wife..she goes into the lodge at the top of Stowe all the time...me..not so much..this should be ..interesting.


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## mikec142 (Oct 16, 2020)

Was thinking about logistical issues around skiing last night.  I'm pretty sure I've figured out a lot of it.  But one major issue really sticks out for me.

A little background.  Most of our VT skiing is done in Northern VT.  We stay with family in Burlington about 50% of the time (that's not going to happen this year).  The other times we get a hotel.  If I'm solo, I find a cheap place to stay off the mountain.  If I'm with my family, we more often than not stay in Burlington so we can have dinner and shopping options.

This year when with family, we will have to find Air BnB's or hotels.  If it's hotels, what are we doing about dinner?  We haven't eaten inside at a restaurant yet and currently don't have a big desire to do so.  Ordering in to the hotel seems fine for one night but not a couple of nights.  Eating outside at night in Northern VT during the winter doesn't seem so great.

Ugh.


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## mikec142 (Oct 16, 2020)

slatham said:


> Most places I've seen have done open air tents, so basically a roof. I agree, if fully enclosed, well then you're inside. Of course the flip side is its going to be colder than an enclosed tent, but with heaters (and maybe the windward side enclosed) warmer than outside.
> 
> Magic is looking at some tents for outside this winter (current tent not built for winter) with heaters.



This is what I meant.  Open sided tents (maybe closed on one side) with heaters will make a significant difference.


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## NYDB (Oct 16, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Was thinking about logistical issues around skiing last night.  I'm pretty sure I've figured out a lot of it.  But one major issue really sticks out for me.
> 
> A little background.  Most of our VT skiing is done in Northern VT.  We stay with family in Burlington about 50% of the time (that's not going to happen this year).  The other times we get a hotel.  If I'm solo, I find a cheap place to stay off the mountain.  If I'm with my family, we more often than not stay in Burlington so we can have dinner and shopping options.
> 
> ...



Maybe I am misunderstanding, but what is wrong with getting take out and eating in the hotel room?


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## mikec142 (Oct 16, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding, but what is wrong with getting take out and eating in the hotel room?



Nothing is wrong with it.  Especially if it's just me.  But a family of four doing it for a couple of nights in a row is less than ideal.  Thus, looking for a few out of the box (no pun intended) ideas.


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## drjeff (Oct 16, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding, but what is wrong with getting take out and eating in the hotel room?



The issue may not be as much with take out in the hotel room, as it may be with how aggressively/passively a hotel in VT will be enforcing the travel quarantine regulations if one's home residence is in a yellow or red county on the VT Travel Restrictions weekly map. If one isn't from one of those counties, than there is zero issue with take out for the family in the hotel room.


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## ss20 (Oct 16, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Nothing is wrong with it.  Especially if it's just me.  But a family of four doing it for a couple of nights in a row is less than ideal.  Thus, looking for a few out of the box (no pun intended) ideas.



Does the hotel have a microwave?  Make a sheet of lasagna at home, freeze it, and thaw/heat with the hotel microwave.

Freeze some soup/stew, bring a crockpot, and heat it up at the hotel.  

Something I plan on trying this year is using a 12v immersion coil to heat water and enjoy ramen/cup-o-noodles in the car if that's where my "lodge" is going to be.  Lot's of these "just add water" meals aren't the crap they used to be and taste pretty good.  Maybe give that a try.  


Best story I have about this was I was at Turn of River Lodge (the cheap Killington hostel) on a real shitty April weekend 2 years ago.  It's a hostel so naturally a lot of the folks there are trying to save money.  A few guys drove into Rutland, went to the Walmart, bought a small Coleman propane stove and a few burgers.  They had a lot of trouble setting it up and I think iirc they FINALLY got it working just as I was retiring to bed at 10pm at night.  The things people do...lol


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## NYDB (Oct 16, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Nothing is wrong with it.  Especially if it's just me.  But a family of four doing it for a couple of nights in a row is less than ideal.  Thus, looking for a few out of the box (no pun intended) ideas.



yeah, it kind of sucks but there are going to be alot of things that suck about this upcoming ski season.  Especially for families.


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## NYDB (Oct 16, 2020)

drjeff said:


> The issue may not be as much with take out in the hotel room, as it may be with how aggressively/passively a hotel in VT will be enforcing the travel quarantine regulations if one's home residence is in a yellow or red county on the VT Travel Restrictions weekly map. If one isn't from one of those counties, than there is zero issue with take out for the family in the hotel room.



I was assuming he is coming from someplace without travel restrictions or had already quarantined at home and took a test.  Otherwise, how could he even book the hotel for a week or weekend?  I think the hotels are required to check where you are coming from 



> All out of state travelers utilizing lodging, camping and short-term rental properties in Vermont must sign and complete a Certificate of Compliance or affirm a compliance statement via a digital check box at the time of reservation and check-in to attest that they meet the quarantine requirement, have traveled from a county with similar active COVID-19 caseload per the Vermont Agency of Commerce and Community Development, or are an essential/authorized worker.



I know of some friends who tried to do a group summer trip from Lawnguyland and were rejected by a resort in SoVT.


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## Edd (Oct 16, 2020)

On a few western ski trips I’ve eaten outdoors at tables with those standalone heaters.  I wonder if some eastern areas are looking at this option. It wouldn’t work some days but it doesn’t always work out west either.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 16, 2020)

drjeff said:


> The issue may not be as much with take out in the hotel room, as it may be with how aggressively/passively a hotel in VT will be enforcing the travel quarantine regulations if one's home residence is in a yellow or red county on the VT Travel Restrictions weekly map.


Most hotels are more than happy if a customer signs the form and says that they quarantined pre-trip.  Which in 99% of cases is a lie.


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## mikec142 (Oct 16, 2020)

Edd said:


> On a few western ski trips I’ve eaten outdoors at tables with those standalone heaters.  I wonder if some eastern areas are looking at this option. It wouldn’t work some days but it doesn’t always work out west either.



We have two of those restaurant style patio heaters in our backyard.  After 10+ years of benign neglect, we spent a few bucks on our backyard in April/May after realizing that having some usable outdoor space would be really helpful during these times.  My wife read an article about outdoor dining being extended in NYC and NJ and immediately said there's going to be a run on those outdoor heaters so we bought two.  They work great and will come in handy over the next few months.  That said, when it's dark and windy and 20 degrees in VT at 7pm, you're going to need more than heaters.


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## gittist (Oct 16, 2020)

My grandmother used to say "you made your bed, now lie in it" which was her way of saying deal with your own decisions and don't expect someone else to bail you out.

That's good advice for all of the states that rely on some sort of tourism and have instituted quarantines or 'runny nose' policies. Those states need to work their own way out of the economic hole they're in. I feel for the ski areas in those states because they're going to be in a bind. 

I hope I'm wrong but I can foresee the snowiest season in years with empty slopes because people aren't willing to travel for hours only to find out they can't stay in lodging, or ski because they have a runny nose.  To add to my dilemma, my wife doesn't ski so I call her my lodge bunny.  I don't expect her to stay in the car or sit in a hotel room IF I'm able to ski that day.

The ski areas will then have to make a business decision. Stay open with what few skiers there are and make up for lost revenue next year by increasing the prices, or shut down to cut the losses.

I bet that the morbidity rate would be pretty close to the seasonal flu if some entity would do random sampling using antibody testing and make an estimate of how many people actually have had COVID. I don't think the world's leaders want to know this, and don't want us to know either.

No I don't wear tin foil on my head but I don't trust the numbers in my state either. The number that was reported on October X, 2020 is not the same number that shows up for October X a few days or weeks later.  It's intentional obfuscation. IMHO.

Let's hope that it's discovered that two aspirin and a Mai Tai will cure COVID!


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## JimG. (Oct 16, 2020)

It has become quite the drama.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 16, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Most hotels are more than happy if a customer signs the form and says that they quarantined pre-trip.  Which in 99% of cases is a lie.


Exactly....every hotel and restaurant i passed Columbus day weekend was packed in VT. Probably one of the busiest fall weekends I've ever seen.

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## tumbler (Oct 16, 2020)

The runny nose thing is absurd.


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## abc (Oct 16, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Most hotels are more than happy if a customer signs the form and says that they quarantined pre-trip.  Which in 99% of cases is a lie.


Actually, the definition of "quarantine" is pretty lenient. It excludes all "essential activity" such as shopping for grocery and visiting doctors. 

Plenty of people don't do anything other than essentials. After all, a lot of the venues for "non-essential" activities are not even open until recently. Not everyone rush out to go there (indoor dining, as 1 example)

So I doubt it's "99% of cases is a lie". Probably more like 50/50 truth/false.


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## cdskier (Oct 16, 2020)

abc said:


> Actually, the definition of "quarantine" is pretty lenient. It excludes all "essential activity" such as shopping for grocery and visiting doctors.



VT's definition is not lenient...

https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites...rt-observation-isolation-quarantine_final.pdf



> Can I go out for groceries and other essential items like medication?
> No, not until 14 days have passed and no symptoms have appeared



About the only thing VT lets you do during quarantine is go outside if you are "completely alone".


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 16, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> This is what I meant.  Open sided tents (maybe closed on one side) with heaters will make a significant difference.




I agree, with heaters you could probably get it up to 50.  Which would be fine to take a break.


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## abc (Oct 16, 2020)

cdskier said:


> VT's definition is not lenient...
> 
> https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites...rt-observation-isolation-quarantine_final.pdf


What I read was a different list, specifically for travel restriction of "pre-arrival quarantine". It specifically allows "essential" such as shopping for food and medication etc. 

Sorry, I don't have the link handy.

(it's also possible what I read has become outdated)


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## Creakyknees (Oct 16, 2020)

*New York State ski areas?*

Belleayre is a state run mountain did anyone hear what the rules are going to be with the lodge during the ski season? I will assume that the three New York State mountains (Whiteface and Gore) will all have the same rules. I would think what ever procedure Belleayre permits Hunter will do the same.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 16, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Eating outside at night in Northern VT during the winter doesn't seem so great.



If the restaurant has the space for social distance outdoor dining, the more high-quality outdoor heaters can put out an un-Godly amount of heat.


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## Harvey (Oct 16, 2020)

Creakyknees said:


> Belleayre is a state run mountain did anyone hear what the rules are going to be with the lodge during the ski season? I will assume that the three New York State mountains (Whiteface and Gore) will all have the same rules. I would think what ever procedure Belleayre permits Hunter will do the same.



I'm a Gore passholder and I haven't really seen bupkis from them. They are basically saying business as usual, from what I can tell.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 17, 2020)

Harvey said:


> I'm a Gore passholder and I haven't really seen bupkis from them. *They are basically saying business as usual,* from what I can tell.



They're New York State run, so I'm gonna' confidently take the "Under" on that bet.


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## mbedle (Oct 17, 2020)

Given their approach this summer and what is stated on their website, I am going to agree with BG on that assessment.


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## mister moose (Oct 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If the restaurant has the space for social distance outdoor dining, the more high-quality outdoor heaters can put out an un-Godly amount of heat.


If so, I think there should be 2 sections, one without carbon based inefficient heating marked "Global Warming" section.


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## tumbler (Oct 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If the restaurant has the space for social distance outdoor dining, the more high-quality outdoor heaters can put out an un-Godly amount of heat.



Except they don't work worth a crap in the wind.


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## Edd (Oct 18, 2020)

tumbler said:


> Except they don't work worth a crap in the wind.



It’s not windy every day though. Seems worth a try.


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## zyk (Oct 18, 2020)

Creakyknees said:


> Belleayre is a state run mountain did anyone hear what the rules are going to be with the lodge during the ski season? I will assume that the three New York State mountains (Whiteface and Gore) will all have the same rules. I would think what ever procedure Belleayre permits Hunter will do the same.



Not sure about rules but I suspect the Catskills will be very busy this year with NY, NJ, and CT being treated as one.  I've been a hunter midweek passholder for years but am stepping away this year.


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## drjeff (Oct 18, 2020)

Space heaters and tents. Take this with a grain of salt from someone who has spent many, many afternoons and evenings, in the Fall and Winter months in everything from cool and dry to cold and windy and wet and white under a tent with a fairly good sized industrial propane fired space heater while tailgating at New England Patriots games (not this year though unfortunately). If you close in the sides of a tent, a space heater can get it pretty comfortable under there (like 20 and breezy outside and 55 - 60 under the tent - and for reference my crew usually has 2 12 x 12 tents side by side and fully wrapped as 1 larger 12x24 space with a 100000 btu heater going) - So it can be done.  

If it's not fully enclosed, and especially if it's windy, unless you're within a few feet of the space heater, it's essentially the same temp and wind situation as if you weren't even under a tent.  The it becomes that debate about if you're trying to get more "outdoor" seating under the tent, if the sides are up, and a space heater is running, is it really that much different risk wise than being inside of an existing lodge?


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## Not Sure (Oct 18, 2020)

drjeff said:


> S
> 
> If it's not fully enclosed, and especially if it's windy, unless you're within a few feet of the space heater, it's essentially the same temp and wind situation as if you weren't even under a tent.  The it becomes that debate about if you're trying to get more "outdoor" seating under the tent, if the sides are up, and a space heater is running, is it really that much different risk wise than being inside of an existing lodge?



Yes and you get to breath in some Carbon Monoxide to boot!  Last week I drove past a restaurant that had some pyramid type propane heaters going inside a plastic enclosure ,they look pretty cool with a nice big yellow flame in a glass tube but there not being used as directed . I'll bet we see some tents go up in flames this year . Be safe and smart


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## Edd (Oct 18, 2020)

Was it this thread Mr. Atlas was mentioned in?

https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-removes-mask-tweet-white-house-adviser-1540081


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## ScottySkis (Oct 18, 2020)

NY ski resorts can open at 50% capacity Nov 6, says Cuomo. 

https://www.syracuse.com/coronaviru...th-limitations-cuomo-says.html?outputType=amp


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## ss20 (Oct 18, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> NY ski resorts can open at 50% capacity Nov 6, says Cuomo.
> 
> https://www.syracuse.com/coronaviru...th-limitations-cuomo-says.html?outputType=amp



I first saw an article where the headline was something like "NY sets date ski resorts can re-open" and it scared me to death like it'd be something crazy in December.  November 6th lol.  Put that in Webster's dictionary next to "non-issue".


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## kingslug (Oct 19, 2020)

Its going to be interesting at places like Stowe where it hit super negative windchills. If the top lodge is not open your kind of screwed. Wonder how many people will pack up mid day after freezing all morning. And if they don't open the bottom lodge...parking lot will look like Mad Max.....


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## drjeff (Oct 19, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Its going to be interesting at places like Stowe where it hit super negative windchills. If the top lodge is not open your kind of screwed. Wonder how many people will pack up mid day after freezing all morning. And if they don't open the bottom lodge...parking lot will look like Mad Max.....



My hunch is that after a few weekends of "trial and error" that the main plan that both the states and resorts have drawn up, will need to have an eraser taken to parts of it, and then morphed to some realities that actually play out. 

And the odds that multiple videos of people freaking out that they're being denied access to some lodge and/or other warming facility this season are quite high for sure!


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 19, 2020)

With distancing (which is already achieved when skiing), masks (which most of us had on even pre-COVID) and capacity restrictions and mask mandates in lodges, I predict that there will be a very low risk for transmission. Not to mention the gloves and goggles that we’ve been wearing for years can now function as PPE. Certain areas across New England have seen an influx in summer visitors yet due do mask and distancing mandates, have not seen a spike in cases. The only real risk for transmission is off mountain gatherings. As long as safety measures are in place I predict this season to be a very low risk environment. 


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## kingslug (Oct 19, 2020)

Well this is disturbing..my favorite place on earth...Utah ..has a huge spike. SLC's biggest hospital is now at 104% capacity.


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 19, 2020)

Can anyone make sense how the Governor of NY decided the ski areas regulations for the upcoming season?  50% capacity in the lodges(which is great).  But 25% capacity outdoors on busy days?  Doesn't make sense.  If it isn't a busy day will the capacity be 100%?
Ever state seems to be making the rules up as they go along without much thought.


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## mbedle (Oct 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Can anyone make sense how the Governor of NY decided the ski areas regulations for the upcoming season?  50% capacity in the lodges(which is great).  But 25% capacity outdoors on busy days?  Doesn't make sense.  If it isn't a busy day will the capacity be 100%?
> Ever state seems to be making the rules up as they go along without much thought.
> 
> View attachment 27084



The news stations got it wrong, the state is requiring a 25% reduction in outdoor capacity. This is from the state website:

State guidance on the reopening of ski resorts includes the following precautions:

Masks required at all times, except when eating/drinking or skiing.
Social distancing between parties required at all times.
Restrict gondolas/lifts to members of the same party.
Limit ski lessons to no more than 10 people.
Thorough cleaning and disinfection of shared/rented equipment.
Shuttles, food & beverage, retail service must conform to State-issued guidance.
Reduce outdoor capacity on mountain by 25% during "peak" days or if multiple trails are closed due to unseasonable conditions.


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## slatham (Oct 19, 2020)

mbedle said:


> The news stations got it wrong, the state is requiring a 25% reduction in outdoor capacity. This is from the state website:
> 
> State guidance on the reopening of ski resorts includes the following precautions:
> 
> ...



So peak days are 75%. So normal peak is 10,000 people, this year its 7,500. Personally I think the lodge capacity is the real constraining factor.


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## drjeff (Oct 19, 2020)

slatham said:


> So peak days are 75%. So normal peak is 10,000 people, this year its 7,500. Personally I think the lodge capacity is the real constraining factor.



I wouldn't be surprised if some lodges, especially one's known for folks who just sit in the lodge all day, eventually have "ticket checkers" at the entrance to the lodge to ensure that those inside of it are truly just there for a quick use situation, rather than a prolonged stay while others in their party are out on the slopes....


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## abc (Oct 19, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if some lodges, especially one's known for folks who just sit in the lodge all day, eventually have "ticket checkers" at the entrance to the lodge to ensure that those inside of it are truly just there for a quick use situation, rather than a prolonged stay while others in their party are out on the slopes....


I don't know how much social pressure works. 

With 50% capacity, there could very well be a long line outside. Will the "lodge Moms" still camp inside the lodge?

Also, how many people feels comfortable sitting indoors for several hours when they don't have to?


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## kingslug (Oct 20, 2020)

Ski..go in ..warm up..ski..go home.


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## Harvey (Oct 20, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Ski..go in ..warm up..ski..go home.



How often is it so cold that you can't stay outside all day or as long as you want?


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## Hawk (Oct 20, 2020)

A few days a year.  Maybe 5.  Zero is fine with me but once it gets below zero it is tough.  Also I can not ski fast groomers or GS style once it gets real cold.  I stick to woods and bumps and I am fine.


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## slatham (Oct 20, 2020)

Harvey said:


> How often is it so cold that you can't stay outside all day or as long as you want?



For AZ'ers not often. But what about the general skiing public? Jill and Joe skier and their little kids, different story.....


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## drjeff (Oct 20, 2020)

Harvey said:


> How often is it so cold that you can't stay outside all day or as long as you want?


The more into middle age I get, even with better clothing and other insulating/accessory heat generating items, the more the cold starts to get to me, and sooner in my ski day, than it used to.

My peripheral circulation isn't what it used to be, and even with a fully warm core, my fingers and toes eventually get cold in spite of all the warming items I use that let me stay out longer than I could without them... 

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## mikec142 (Oct 20, 2020)

For me...I could pretty much stay out all day.  But my wife and teenage daughters need to warm up.  Gonna be an interesting season, that's for sure.


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## Smellytele (Oct 20, 2020)

My grill will get a lot more use this year. Probably mix it up with more than just burgers and dogs as well. Sausages w/ onion and pepper - chicken - steak. Maybe warm up some pizza.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

drjeff said:


> My peripheral circulation isn't what it used to be, and even with a fully warm core, my fingers and toes eventually get cold in spite of all the warming items I use that let me stay out longer than I could without them...


That applies to me also. I don't really "get cold" in my core. But long before I "feel cold", my fingers and toes would freeze.  

My fingers in particular, gets cold really easily. I wore mittens even in "normal" days. On cold days, I had to consciously move my fingers (make a fist, open hand, repeat). Or my fingers would lose feeling. When I take my mittens off, my fingers were terribly cold to the touch. 

My toes too, got cold easily as well. There, there's not much I could do. Between getting decent control with my boots, and keeping my feet reasonably warm but without sweaty, my toes just got the short shift. Even on normal days, I could only do about 3 to 4 hours before my toes got so cold I had to warm them up indoors.  

On really cold days, I could only ski an hour before my toes lose feeling. I dare not go much beyond that for fear of doing permanent damage to my extremities.

This coming season, with limited access to lodges in reduced capacity, and the heighten risk indoors, it may turn out to be mostly short days on the mountains for me. (that is not such a tragedy though, as I expect to do mostly day trips without overnight stay, the drive before and after skiing would be less tiring with a shorter day)


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## JimG. (Oct 20, 2020)

It really sounds like few people will be able to handle skiing this coming season. 

I'm beginning to think that it will be an outstanding season with few crowds and excellent conditions if, as usual, the weather cooperates.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It really sounds like few people will be able to handle skiing this coming season.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that it will be an outstanding season with few crowds and excellent conditions if, as usual, the weather cooperates.


With the capacity cap, it's going to be less crowded slope at the minimum. You may have even quieter slopes later in the day as many had quit. 

For peak period, that is.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It really sounds like few people will be able to handle skiing this coming season.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that it will be an outstanding season with few crowds and excellent conditions if, as usual, the weather cooperates.



Just going out on a limb that it’s actually going to be a pretty busy season. Everybody has been cooped up for half a year at this point and a visit to the mountains in a safe manner is very appealing. Who knows, but that’s just my prediction. 


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## deadheadskier (Oct 20, 2020)

Cooped up a half year or not, families with young kids are going to be skiing less.  That's a large chunk of the clientele.  Unless the lodge restrictions change or the outdoor break areas are more comfortable than I'm anticipating, I fully expect to have a number of frustrating, colder days with my five year old where I question why I bothered going. 

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## kbroderick (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It really sounds like few people will be able to handle skiing this coming season.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that it will be an outstanding season with few crowds and excellent conditions if, as usual, the weather cooperates.



I think we're going to see a lot of pent-up demand early in the season, dropping off as people who come for the whole "resort experience"  realize that while the skiing hasn't changed much, the rest of the experience has. I wouldn't be surprised to see higher traffic levels on nicer weekends in the spring, though, if people decide that the January/February weather isn't worth dealing with.

Access to slopeside lodging may also be a significant factor for a lot of people, especially families, to mitigate limited day-lodge access.


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## kingslug (Oct 20, 2020)

Harvey said:


> How often is it so cold that you can't stay outside all day or as long as you want?


Stowe and Jay Peak are pretty cold places. Last year windchills went below 20 below..that wipes out most people and is a bit dangerous if your not protected enough. I'm good with it though.


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## kingslug (Oct 20, 2020)

abc said:


> That applies to me also. I don't really "get cold" in my core. But long before I "feel cold", my fingers and toes would freeze.
> 
> My fingers in particular, gets cold really easily. I wore mittens even in "normal" days. On cold days, I had to consciously move my fingers (make a fist, open hand, repeat). Or my fingers would lose feeling. When I take my mittens off, my fingers were terribly cold to the touch.
> 
> ...



Lenz heated socks were the trick for us..yes expensive but really made the difference. Super warm mittens also. There were a few days at Stowe when I had liners and 2 heat bags per mitten..could barely feel the pole but it worked.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Lenz heated socks were the trick for us..yes expensive but really made the difference. Super warm mittens also. There were a few days at Stowe when I had liners and 2 heat bags per mitten..could barely feel the pole but it worked.


I've been curious about heated socks since it came out. Though not entirely sure about warmth being the real issue for my toes. It's more of an issue of reduced blood flow. As my toes weren't getting its maximum blood flow, they're not getting sufficiently warmed by the blood. The "cure" was always taking the boot off. I could feel the blood rushing back into my toes (that tingling feeling). And the toes immediately "warm up". But on really cold days, the "blood flow/warmth deficit" accumulate just so much quicker. I had to either stop and taking the boot off, or at least warming the boot back up to room temperature

Fingers are a slightly different matter. Like my feet, my palm sweat a lot. Yet my fingers remain cold. There, I can purposely move my fingers to keep the blood flow going. Also, my hands aren't restricted as my feet are. 

I've not invested too much in "warming" gears because in the past I simply not bothered to ski on super cold days. I've gotten to a certain temperature point where all my extremities are in the same temperature zone. To go beyond that set temperature, I would need to invest not just in socks, but glove-liners, helmet liners and face masks... just for a few rare cold days that's worth skiing. I didn't feel like bothering.


----------



## JimG. (Oct 20, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just going out on a limb that it’s actually going to be a pretty busy season. Everybody has been cooped up for half a year at this point and a visit to the mountains in a safe manner is very appealing. Who knows, but that’s just my prediction.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I met a lot of new fishermen this year so you might have a fair point.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Cooped up a half year or not, families with young kids are going to be skiing less.  That's a large chunk of the clientele.  Unless the lodge restrictions change or the outdoor break areas are more comfortable than I'm anticipating, I fully expect to have a number of frustrating, colder days with my five year old where I question why I bothered going.
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app



I think it depends on the age of the kids in the family DHS. 

With the age of your kids, where more direct and constant parental supervision, especially with the likely lack of kids ski school programs and/or daycare options at many ski areas this Winter, I can certainly see that as a hinderance to going numerous times.

With kids the age of mine (mid-late teens) who are basically fully independent and basically only need my wife and I to flip them another $20 or so for food every now and then, I don't see this season being much of a hinderance at all, and frankly my 2 kids, who's highschool is still all virtual (although they're scheduled to start 1 day of in person classes a week the 2nd week of November), frankly they can't wait to get out of the house, right now!  Heck, even after she's had her driver's license now for about 3 months, my daughter still actively wants to go to the grocery store for my wife and I, just to get out of the house for a bit!!


----------



## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Just going out on a limb that it’s actually going to be a pretty busy season. Everybody has been cooped up for half a year at this point and a visit to the mountains in a safe manner is very appealing. Who knows, but that’s just my prediction.


Not so much of "cooped up for half a year", more like there're little else open (restaurants, parties, shopping malls), little else to do.

My observation is there're a lot of people head out to the outdoors. But they're all going to the "big name" destinations (trails, parks, campgrounds in the summer). Those who know some of the off-the-beaten-path places will find them still reasonably quiet, and sane.

I went camping in Lake George TWICE. It's a place that are usually hopping and crowded. But without the partying and "events", it's no more busy than usual. And once past Labor Day, it's just as dead as any other years.

Take Minnewaska state Park vs Mohonk Preserve. Those two parcel of lands sit on the same ridge. Have the same extended network of carriage roads. On a sunny warm day, Minnewaska has cars lined up for 1/2 mile waiting to get into the parking lot. Mohonk Preserve? The main parking lot may get full by late morning, which by their standard is "crazy busy". But the remote satellite parking lot never got completely full. 

I was at Mohonk Preserve last Sunday, when they had an "event". Still plenty of rooms to roam. 

Someone showed a picture of the crowds at Minnewaska, you pretty much need to push your way past the crowd to get through the waterfall area and on the shore of Lake Minnewaska! 

So yeah, there will be increased participation on SOME mountains. But likely still plenty of quiet areas out of the consciousness of the casual skiers.


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## JimG. (Oct 20, 2020)

abc said:


> Take Minnewaska state Park vs Mohonk Preserve. Those two parcel of lands sit on the same ridge. Have the same extended network of carriage roads. On a sunny warm day, Minnewaska has cars lined up for 1/2 mile waiting to get into the parking lot. Mohonk Preserve? The main parking lot may get full by late morning, which by their standard is "crazy busy". But the remote satellite parking lot never got completely full.
> 
> I was at Mohonk Preserve last Sunday, when they had an "event". Still plenty of rooms to roam. Someone showed a picture of the crowds at Minnewaska, you pretty much need to push your way past the crowd to get through the waterfall area and on the shore of Lake Minnewaska!
> 
> So yeah, there will be increased participation on SOME mountains. But likely still plenty of quiet areas out of the consciousness of the casual skiers.



To be fair, Minnewaska does not charge for parking but Mohonk Preserve (privately owned) charges $10 for each person in the car. I'm quite sure that is a main driver of the usage difference.

You can park at Minnewaska and hike to Mohonk, but that is a fair extra distance. Probably outside the roaming desires of most hikers.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> To be fair, Minnewaska does not charge for parking but Mohonk Preserve (privately owned) charges $10 for each person in the car. I'm quite sure that is a main driver of the usage difference.


Minnewaska DOES charge for parking


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## JimG. (Oct 20, 2020)

abc said:


> Minnewaska DOES charge for parking



Correct, but $10 per car, not per person.


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## Harvey (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I met a lot of new fishermen this year so you might have a fair point.



The bike riding was off the hook too.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> You can park at Minnewaska and hike to Mohonk, but that is a fair extra distance. Probably outside the roaming desires of most hikers.


I’m not totally convinced the cost is the main driver. 

On Sunday’s event, there’s free parking for people who park on the Pine Rd entrance. And it can also be reached from the new River to Ridge trail. But I only saw a few handful of people accessing from those points. Sure, most people don’t know about those access points. But that points to the direction most visitors aren’t familiar enough with the Preserve. 

I bet 1/2 the cars waiting to enter Minnewaska don’t even know about Mohonk Preserves. Let alone finding out how much it cost to get in. 

How many Okemo or Stratton skier know Magic exists? Never mind how much it cost to ski there, or how much terrain are there?


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## Harvey (Oct 20, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Stowe and Jay Peak are pretty cold places. Last year windchills went below 20 below..that wipes out most people and is a bit dangerous if your not protected enough. I'm good with it though.



Trees.

Lifts are an issue, but you can get around that too.


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## ss20 (Oct 20, 2020)

I think for every one rational person who sees skiing as one of the safest possible activities during a pandemic there's one person who's cooped up inside fearful to leave.  Unfortunately my dad in in the latter camp...64yo and in perfect health but doesn't leave the house  besides work and the grocery store once a week.  I'm sure we all know at least one or two people similarly.  

I'm getting more concerned now about when the actual season will start.  Looks like we're gonna end October without a snowgun blasting anywhere, let alone a place opening.


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## JimG. (Oct 20, 2020)

I amazingly find myself feeling pretty certain I will take the refund for my K midweek pass by 11/20.

There is still a small chance I will keep it as a hedge against Cuomo shutting NY ski areas down.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I amazingly find myself feeling pretty certain I will take the refund for my K midweek pass by 11/20.
> 
> There is still a small chance I will keep it as a hedge against Cuomo shutting NY ski areas down.


I know several people who normally have multiple passes are cutting back on the number of passes this year.


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## abc (Oct 20, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I think for every one rational person who sees skiing as one of the safest possible activities during a pandemic there's one person who's cooped up inside fearful to leave.  Unfortunately my dad in in the latter camp...64yo and in perfect health but doesn't leave the house  besides work and the grocery store once a week.  I'm sure we all know at least one or two people similarly.


I would split the difference. 

I think skiing is perfectly safe. But everything else surrounding skiing is highly suspect: lodging, access to base lodge, life line... Not to mention the pain in the butt reservation requirement!

Frankly, there're safer activities that are equally healthy and fun, without the need for long distance travel and the pass commitment: xc skiing, winter hiking, mountain biking... So I struggle to justify the expense and risk associate with downhill skiing. Sure, I enjoy it. But for me, it isn't such a big deal to NOT SKIING either...


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## deadheadskier (Oct 20, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I think it depends on the age of the kids in the family DHS.
> 
> With the age of your kids, where more direct and constant parental supervision, especially with the likely lack of kids ski school programs and/or daycare options at many ski areas this Winter, I can certainly see that as a hinderance to going numerous times.
> 
> With kids the age of mine (mid-late teens) who are basically fully independent and basically only need my wife and I to flip them another $20 or so for food every now and then, I don't see this season being much of a hinderance at all, and frankly my 2 kids, who's highschool is still all virtual (although they're scheduled to start 1 day of in person classes a week the 2nd week of November), frankly they can't wait to get out of the house, right now!  Heck, even after she's had her driver's license now for about 3 months, my daughter still actively wants to go to the grocery store for my wife and I, just to get out of the house for a bit!!



I don't disagree the proposed operations won't be a hindrance for teens.  Hell from about age 16 to 25 I barely ever stepped foot in a lodge.  Boot up at the car and then tailgate at the car as I got older and couldn't yet afford beers and food in the lodge.

That's why I said families with "young" kids.  It's a crappy situation for those in my shoes.  If it's 30 at Crotched vs 10 at Wildcat, I'll end up heading to Crotched because of the lodge situation.

 Thankfully I have my work minivan  I can use for the ski commutes and my company doesn't restrict use of the company can for work purposes only. 

Probably the single thing I'm most pissed about is no Cat Pub and Mug Club this season.  [emoji36]

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Oct 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Thankfully I have my work minivan


This may be the first time in human history that this sentence has been uttered.


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## abc (Oct 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This may be the first time in human history that this sentence has been uttered.


Huh? 

Perfectly sensible. Work related perks are a big part of a job. A work van can be of many use in normal time. This year? It’s ultra special!


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## Smellytele (Oct 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This may be the first time in human history that this sentence has been uttered.



I am thankful for my work minivan that I can use for personal travel as well but it sucks in the snow.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Oct 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This may be the first time in human history that this sentence has been uttered.


I know right?

Wouldn't be my choice to purchase but hey, it's free. 

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Oct 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I am thankful for my work minivan that I can use for personal travel as well but it sucks in the snow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Mine is an AWD Sienna.  With snow tires it's pretty decent.  Not as good as our Alltrack, but it gets the job done. The huge amount of space though makes it more practical.  Probably more room in the back seat than most any other vehicle, so that will help with getting my son ready and be better to hang out for breaks.


The leasing company allows employees in northern States to have snow tires put on for winter.  Guess they calculate that snow tires are cheaper than potential wrecks.  

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This may be the first time in human history that this sentence has been uttered.



DHS must be an incredibly organized worker.  My Brother in law and my cousin have work vans.  One is an electrician and the other is a controls contractor.  Their work vans are so packed with job crap that it would be almost impossible to go skiing with that van and bring anyone else or even fit their equipment.  ;-)


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## deadheadskier (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> DHS must be an incredibly organized worker.  My Brother in law and my cousin have work vans.  One is an electrician and the other is a controls contractor.  Their work vans are so packed with job crap that it would be almost impossible to go skiing with that van and bring anyone else or even fit their equipment.  ;-)


I can have a ton of crap in my van at times. But it's all large Pelican cases of demo equipment for presentations.  Maybe a couple of boxes of samples in addition to the demo equipment.  I have a storage unit where all that stuff lives.  Load up for the week Monday morning. Unload on Friday. 

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mikec142 (Oct 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I think it depends on the age of the kids in the family DHS.
> 
> With the age of your kids, where more direct and constant parental supervision, especially with the likely lack of kids ski school programs and/or daycare options at many ski areas this Winter, I can certainly see that as a hinderance to going numerous times.
> 
> With kids the age of mine (mid-late teens) who are basically fully independent and basically only need my wife and I to flip them another $20 or so for food every now and then, I don't see this season being much of a hinderance at all, and frankly my 2 kids, who's highschool is still all virtual (although they're scheduled to start 1 day of in person classes a week the 2nd week of November), frankly they can't wait to get out of the house, right now!  Heck, even after she's had her driver's license now for about 3 months, my daughter still actively wants to go to the grocery store for my wife and I, just to get out of the house for a bit!!



I have two teenagers as well.  And a wife who doesn't ski anymore.  This season is gonna be tough for me on several levels.  I have an Ikon pass, but my kids don't.  So getting day tickets in advance will be challenging for us as we don't plan well in advance and there's always the chance of bad weather.  Second is that my kids are fine on their own but they are less tolerant of eating a sandwich on a lift than I am.  They like to grab a bite and warm up.  The reduced lodge access is gonna be an issue.  My wife usually hangs out in the lodge with a book or her laptop.  Not gonna happen this year.  So really have to figure out lodging issues.  Depending on lodging (stay at hotels most often) we will have to figure out dinner plans.  Not so fun to eat in the hotel room a couple of nights in a row.

If I go solo, which I do plenty, it won't be a big deal.  Boot up at the car, eat a sandwich on the lift, warm up (if needed) in the car, get some pizza and bring it back to the hotel.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

That said, solo is fun sometimes, but I do miss skiing with my family and friends when I do it.  Also, 11 hours (round trip) alone in the car kinda sux.


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2020)

You know, if I had to do what you NY, NJ and PA people do for commute, stay and ski I don't think I would be as much of Ski fan as I am now.  I have to hand it to you guys.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 21, 2020)

as a southcentral PA resident its a challenge to get north and ski so long weekends 1-3 times a year for me only.  I'm extremely fortunate that I have a local ski hill less than 4 miles from home.  Its nothing great, there aren't trees to ski in (lack of natural snow), but it keeps me engaged and hungry for more challenging skiing.    Very few places I can keep a regular job and take lunch runs as many days a week as I want.


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## asnowmobiler (Oct 21, 2020)

Blue Mountain's plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH7v...ature=youtu.be


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## EPB (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You know, if I had to do what you NY, NJ and PA people do for commute, stay and ski I don't think I would be as much of Ski fan as I am now.  I have to hand it to you guys.



Fact check: TRUE. When my family lived on the North Shore when I was little, one of the families with kids my age down the street from us had a place at Sugarloaf when we had one in the MWV. The thought of driving 200 miles/4 hours most weekends seemed crazy at the time.

Now, 225 miles/~4 hours gets me as far as Magic. K is 250 miles/~4.5 hours from where I am in Northern NJ. Points north are obviously more. Living down here in the long run *would* have a serious negative effect on my ability to ski anywhere truly desirable save for Plattekill and maybe Gore (never been) with any regularity.


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## kingslug (Oct 21, 2020)

Considering the 3 hours a day I commute to and from NYC..the 5 hour drive to Stowe is a breeze..and the payoff is more fun.


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## Smellytele (Oct 21, 2020)

I rather live under a bridge than drive 3 hours to work and then 3 hours home.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## abc (Oct 21, 2020)

Hawk said:


> You know, if I had to do what you NY, NJ and PA people do for commute, stay and ski I don't think I would be as much of Ski fan as I am now.  I have to hand it to you guys.


I'm one of the "board regular" who doesn't ski "regularly"!  

My ski season usually consist of 1-2 week long trips to the west. Plus a few long weekends in the northeast. The last few years, I've "stretched" the long trip to longer trips (2-3 weeks instead of one, mixed in with some remote working). And supplemented with a few day trips to local mountains. All that yielding decent 30-40 day seasons depends on weather and luck. Sufficient number of days, albeit not really "regularly". 

My interest and enjoyment in skiing is no less than many of you. However, whilst I can ski my butts off in all kinds of weather all season long without getting bored, I also have other equally enjoyable interests and hobbies keeping me firmly on the flat land (coast to be exact). That latter part isn't going to change. So a balancing act will always be in the card. (nothing to do with job, so retirement won't change any)

In a pandemic year, the balancing point shifted significantly in favor of activities in the flat land where I'm living! It's just plain obvious it's much easier to simply focus on the stuff I can do locally and ski ONLY IF it can be done without a huge amount of risks and all the other uncertainties.


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## ss20 (Oct 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I rather live under a bridge than drive 3 hours to work and then 3 hours home.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



+100. Also I think I'd rather do that than drive to/from VT from Phily or NJ or Long Island like some members do every weekend November-April.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 21, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Considering the 3 hours a day I commute to and from NYC..the 5 hour drive to Stowe is a breeze..and the payoff is more fun.





Smellytele said:


> I rather live under a bridge than drive 3 hours to work and then 3 hours home.



I interpreted this to mean that they commute 1.5 hours each way - but it definitely can be read either way.


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## abc (Oct 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I rather live under a bridge than drive 3 hours to work and then 3 hours home.





ss20 said:


> +100. Also I think I'd rather do that than drive to/from VT from Phily or NJ or Long Island like some members do every weekend November-April.


You can say that until you start a family. It's much harder to stash a kid or two under the bridge!

I too, admire those who drive 4-5 hr every weekend to ski in the winter, which I don't see myself doing. But I kept 2 homes for many years. I can tell you the drive back and forth can actually be a mental "de-stress" period. So I can see how it could be done. 

Judging from the number of members doing it, it's not a small number at all. 

Just like many who live out west wonders how the heck people in the east coast can ski ice and rock year after year...


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## drjeff (Oct 21, 2020)

abc said:


> You can say that until you start a family. It's much harder to stash a kid or two under the bridge!
> 
> I too, admire those who drive 4-5 hr every weekend to ski in the winter, which I don't see myself doing. But I kept 2 homes for many years. I can tell you the drive back and forth can actually be a mental "de-stress" period. So I can see how it could be done.
> 
> ...



110% agree with this statement!  I can't tell you the number of times that Friday afternoon, after a mentally tough week, I get in the car and head North, and the amount of mental rejuvenation, even if it wasn't the smoothest of drives, is significant.  

And frankly right now, with my trips to my place in VT having been greatly diminished over what I would of done in a typical Spring/Summer/early Fall, I'm getting excited that my Friday afternoon drives North are likely only a few more weeks away!

The drive time, for me at least, knowing what's awaiting upon arrival in the form of some fun and friends, isn't an arduous thing at all


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## tumbler (Oct 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> 110% agree with this statement!  I can't tell you the number of times that Friday afternoon, after a mentally tough week, I get in the car and head North, and the amount of mental rejuvenation, even if it wasn't the smoothest of drives, is significant.
> 
> And frankly right now, with my trips to my place in VT having been greatly diminished over what I would of done in a typical Spring/Summer/early Fall, I'm getting excited that my Friday afternoon drives North are likely only a few more weeks away!
> 
> The drive time, for me at least, knowing what's awaiting upon arrival in the form of some fun and friends, isn't an arduous thing at all



It's the drive home on Sunday that bums me out.


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## NYDB (Oct 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> 110% agree with this statement!  I can't tell you the number of times that Friday afternoon, after a mentally tough week, I get in the car and head North, and the amount of mental rejuvenation, even if it wasn't the smoothest of drives, is significant.
> 
> And frankly right now, with my trips to my place in VT having been greatly diminished over what I would of done in a typical Spring/Summer/early Fall, I'm getting excited that my Friday afternoon drives North are likely only a few more weeks away!
> 
> The drive time, for me at least, knowing what's awaiting upon arrival in the form of some fun and friends, isn't an arduous thing at all



You are going to see patients all week and then come up to VT Friday afternoon and Ski the weekend all winter?  As a medical professional are you exempt from the VT travel guidelines?

Didn't Mount Snow lose a beloved Long time Employee last spring to Covid brought by Flatlanders?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 21, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> You are going to see patients all week and then come up to VT Friday afternoon and Ski the weekend all winter?  As a medical professional are you exempt from the VT travel guidelines?
> 
> Didn't Mount Snow lose a beloved Long time Employee last spring to Covid brought by Flatlanders?



He’s not exempt.  If quarantining, in order to be outside you must be *completely alone.*  (e.g., not in a ski racing program)

Wait for the attempt to justify it in 3... 2... 1...


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## drjeff (Oct 21, 2020)

Yup, my constant mask wearing self, who gets tested twice a week, is going to go back and forth to my property in VT weekly, as long as I pass the same health checks my patients have to to come into my office, and I feel well, and keep testing negative and/or have received a vaccine if/when it becomes available.

And I know for sure that I am by far not the only one planning on doing this, except most others won't be doing the same regular testing and/or health checks.

After working mainly non stop since this pandemic began in what is deemed a high risk to exposure profession, with neither myself nor any of my staff contracting COVID-19 to date. You really do learn that rigid adherence to the infection control protocols, does allow one to carry on with their lives in a fairly normal way, just in smaller cohorts of people you associate with directly in person, proper mask wearing protocols and hand hygiene, and some basic other things to minimize your exposure to the places you travel to. 

Will I be bringing my weekend groceries from home instead of buying them on my way to VT? Yup. Short of an URGENT restroom stop, will I be stopping along the way? Nope. If myself or any of my other family members are at all feeling questionable, will we go to VT that weekend? No. As of now my kids are fully virtual school, so they're not being exposed to their peers at all. My wife is in the same profession as I am and adheres to the same rigid protocols I do at work, and has also been COVID Negative this entire time.

Take issue with what myself and my family do if you want. It's still a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I feel fully confident about the safety of my plans for this Winter, based on what I have been living for the past 7+ months, and the last thing I would do is jeaprodise the safety of my 2nd home community if I at all felt I would reasonably be doing so.

People are more than welcome to feel scared about COVID-19. There certainly are specific demographics of the population who should be concerned about it. There certainly has been a plethora of fear in the reporting of COVID-19. If one takes the time to critically look at the information out there, and takes a serious, approach to their own risk mitigation protocols, and is in a low risk demographic, then one's risk of contracting it is very low. 

Feel free to do what you want. 

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 21, 2020)

JimG. said:


> *It really sounds like few people will be able to handle skiing this coming season. *


 
  I'm with you in the minority on that.  The average skier will not put up with all of this taken in concert.  Especially the lodge on cold days being restricted, where the hell will they go?  Straight back to their hotel rooms is my guess.  The richest person in ski towns this season will be the guy who owns the liquor store.



VTKilarney said:


> *I interpreted this to mean that they commute 1.5 hours each way *- but it definitely can be read either way.



So did I.  It's still horrendous.  Money is important, but it's not _that_ important, and you cant take it with you.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Yup, my constant mask wearing self, who gets tested twice a week, is going to go back and forth to my property in VT weekly, as long as I pass the same health checks my patients have to to come into my office, and I feel well, and keep testing negative and/or have received a vaccine if/when it becomes available.
> 
> And I know for sure that I am by far not the only one planning on doing this, except most others won't be doing the same regular testing and/or health checks.
> 
> ...


Well said!

Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ss20 (Oct 21, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Well said!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app



Ditto.  

The shame is that that's the responsible way to ski in VT this winter...but it's still not legal.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> After working mainly non stop since this pandemic began* in what is deemed a high risk to exposure profession, *


Well, I nailed the attempt to justify the breaking of the rule.  It’s even more galling thanks to this admission.



drjeff said:


> I feel fully confident about the safety of my plans for this Winter,


You don’t get to make that call, so stop pretending that you do.  The state of Vermont doesn’t feel confident and they have established rules.  I looked and there is no exception for “feelz.”  You (and I) may disagree with some of the rules, but that doesn’t give you a hall pass.  



drjeff said:


> People are more than welcome to feel scared about COVID-19. There certainly are specific demographics of the population who should be concerned about it. There certainly has been a plethora of fear in the reporting of COVID-19. If one takes the time to critically look at the information out there, and takes a serious, approach to their own risk mitigation protocols, and is in a low risk demographic, then one's risk of contracting it is very low.


Hopefully someday you’ll stop thinking only about yourself and you’ll realize that the travel restrictions are in place to prevent you from giving the disease to someone else.  



drjeff said:


> Feel free to do what you want.


That’s not how it works.  There are rules that, while onerous to everyone at times, Vermonters have been generally respecting.  It’s why we are doing MUCH better than Connecticut.  

I don’t mean to pick on you.  It’s more that I’m disappointed in you.  I would have had more respect if you just admitted that you were putting yourself before others - because there is no way to slice it any other way, especially with your admission that you are at high risk to exposure. * You know as well as I do that you can get a negative test result on a Friday and be contagious on a Sunday.*  But your kids just have to race in Vermont, I suppose.

Sadly, you are far from alone, which is why Vermont will fare much worse in ski country this winter.

You still have the chance to do the difficult, but right thing.  Vermont has been very good to you.  Maybe, just maybe, you could be good to Vermont and its people this one time.  Give it some thought.

I’ll just leave this here as a little reminder that someone else had the same attitude as you which is why these guys are dead and won’t be grooming your kids’ race course this year.


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## jimk (Oct 22, 2020)

Commuted 1.5 hours each way to work from 1986-1999.  Not fun, but helped me afford to feed a family of six on one salary.  These days there are probably over a million people in the Balt-Wash area that have commutes that long or longer.

Dr Jeff you have my blessing for your winter plans.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

jimk said:


> Dr Jeff you have my blessing for your winter plans.



It’s nice to know that people from much worse off areas than Vermont are happy to “bless” someone in a high risk profession break the rules and put people in a far away place at risk.

What’s a couple more dead Mt. Snow groomers when kids need to race?  Those D1 scholarships are waiting. Priorities, after all.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s nice to know that people from much worse off areas than Vermont are happy to “bless” someone in a high risk profession break the rules and put people in a far away place at risk.
> 
> What’s a couple more dead Mt. Snow groomers when kids need to race?  Those D1 scholarships are waiting. Priorities, after all.


NY has a ban on 48 others states as well. Probably way more people coming and going in NY then VT. Vermont regulations are ridiculous and I TRULY believe that if people followed those regulations 100% VT would be in such financial trouble they would be forced to lift them.

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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s nice to know that people from much worse off areas than Vermont are happy to “bless” someone in a high risk profession break the rules and put people in a far away place at risk.
> 
> What’s a couple more dead Mt. Snow groomers when kids need to race?  Those D1 scholarships are waiting. Priorities, after all.



Are you sure that you're COVID-19 Negative VTKilarney? As of this past Monday, when I took my latest test I am, and I'll be taking my next test tomorrow afternoon, after my work week is done, but before I go home. The Abbott labs 15 minute rapid tests, which are over 97% accurate, is what is part of my office protocol these days for all staff members. And yes, that doesn't mean that I couldn't be positive and not yet detectable. Short of everyone us living inside a bubble or NEVER coming in contact with anyone, nobody can be 100% certain they're negative 100% of the time. That's just real life, and there is always some risk in life no matter what we're doing.

And you can drop the racing narrative as well, since there is no way either of my kids is going D1, heck, right now 1 definitely isn't going to race in anything more than highschool racing this year, and the other is far more focused on academics than racing,  and as of now, there really aren't any formal racing plans in VT until at minimum after January 1st, unless you're an athlete at a full time ski academy. Heck, Mount Snow hasn't even announced any formal plans on if they will be having a racing program this season as of yet, but then again, you're just making assumptions without having the full story before formulating your opinion. 

If you are so concerned about things, feel free to do what you feel is safe, which may very well be to not leave your residence, that is your choice, since as of now, we still are a free country, and as adults, we are able to make decisions on our own.

Additionally, if you want to bring up interstate travel, as someone who lives not too far from the casinos in CT, and travels every day on my way to/from work up and down interstate 395 which essentially connects from the Mass Pike in the Worcester area to the casinos, I can certainly tell you that more days than not, I do see the green license plates that VT is known for traveling my roads in CT, but then again, I am guessing that you may not have an issue with your fellow Vermonters and how they choose to live their lives, verses others, who may not be full time VT residents, but choose to live their lives, and likely in a responsible way as well. Again, that's your own choice, and thankfully we still can make our own choices in this country.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> NY has a ban on 48 others states as well. Probably way more people coming and going in NY then VT. Vermont regulations are ridiculous and I TRULY believe that if people followed those regulations 100% VT would be in such financial trouble they would be forced to lift them.


The VAST majority of people that I speak with here are in support of the travel restrictions.  A big reason why is likely because we are doing so well.  Covid is creeping up here, but whatever Vermont has done has worked compared to any of the surrounding states.  And it's not just a rural thing.  Look at rural states out west and you will see that they are now doing very poorly.

I may come across as harsh, and I am not naive enough to think that everyone will follow the rules.  What bothers me are the mental gymnastics to justify why the rules don't apply to oneself.  People need to be honest and just admit that they value their own recreation more than the safety of others.  It isn't theory at Mt. Snow.  Two beloved employees are dead because of that attitude.

There are ski race programs in states that allow travel from Connecticut.  So the sacrifice would have been minimal.  And perhaps the best lesson to teach a child is not how to shave off 0.5 seconds from their slalom time - it's to teach compassion for others even when it means that you can't have everything you want.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> The VAST majority of people that I speak with here are in support of the travel restrictions.  A big reason why is likely because we are doing so well.  Covid is creeping up here, but whatever Vermont has done has worked compared to any of the surrounding states.  And it's not just a rural thing.  Look at rural states out west and you will see that they are now doing very poorly.
> 
> I may come across as harsh, and I am not naive enough to think that everyone will follow the rules.  What bothers me are the mental gymnastics to justify why the rules don't apply to oneself.  People need to be honest and just admit that they value their own recreation more than the safety of others.  It isn't theory at Mt. Snow.  Two beloved employees are dead because of that attitude.
> 
> There are ski race programs in states that allow travel from Connecticut.  So the sacrifice would have been minimal.  And perhaps the best lesson to teach a child is not how to shave off 0.5 seconds from their slalom time - it's to teach compassion for others even when it means that you can't have everything you want.


All that still doesn't change the fact that VT can't financially survive shut down to 98% of the population. 

Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Are you sure that you're COVID-19 Negative VTKilarney?


Nice attempt at deflection.  I am sure that when I had to travel to Saratoga for one night a few weeks ago I quarantined upon my return.  So, yeah.  I follow the rules.  Even though my entire time in the "yellow" county was spent outdoors when I was not in the hotel room.



drjeff said:


> As of this past Monday, when I took my latest test I am, and I'll be taking my next test tomorrow afternoon, after my work week is done, but before I go home. The Abbott labs 15 minute rapid tests, which are over 97% accurate, is what is part of my office protocol these days for all staff members.


And you know full well that you can test negative on a Friday and be contagious on a Sunday.  



drjeff said:


> And you can drop the racing narrative as well, since *there is no way either of my kids is going D1*


That was EXACTLY my point.



drjeff said:


> If you are so concerned about things, feel free to do what you feel is safe, which may very well be to not leave your residence, that is your choice, since as of now, we still are a free country, and as adults, we are able to make decisions on our own.


I think you may have failed civics class.  We are a country that has laws in place to protect the well being of others.  You aren't "free" to violate the Vermont rules.  Sure, enforcement is lax, but the rules exist and are on the books for a reason.  Just be honest that you don't care if other people get sick.  As long as you get to strap on a pair of skis.



drjeff said:


> I do see the green license plates that VT is known for traveling my roads in CT, but then again, I am guessing that you may not have an issue with your fellow Vermonters


Ahh... other people are bad so I should be too.  Interesting moral compass you have there.  What you can't dance around is that Vermonters have been much more successful at stemming Covid than people from Connecticut.  One reason is that decent people are willing to respect the rules that have literally kept people in Vermont from dying.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> All that still doesn't change the fact that VT can't financially survive shut down to 98% of the population.


Vermont has the third lowest unemployment rates in the country.  So you might be overreacting just a wee bit.

Also, we aren't shut down to 98% of the population.  We just ask that, if people come to Vermont, they quarantine before their kids go down a slalom course.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 22, 2020)

I think you’re missing a main point here that the state he comes from is much less significant than how safe he is in Vermont. Assuming that he practices all the safety measures there is little to zero risk for transmission, even if he had the virus. Is he in close contact with people without masks for 15+ minutes? Probably not. Is he wearing a mask when in public and distancing? Probably yes. 


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## djd66 (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s nice to know that people from much worse off areas than Vermont are happy to “bless” someone in a high risk profession break the rules and put people in a far away place at risk.
> 
> What’s a couple more dead Mt. Snow groomers when kids need to race?  Those D1 scholarships are waiting. Priorities, after all.



Enough with the personal attacks.  

The only way VT will be able to stop non-VT residents from coming to VT this winter is to shut down all ski areas.  I can’t imagine what that would do to the economy.  What I can imagine is VT requesting lots of my federal taxes to bail them out of an unnecessary situation.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think you’re missing a main point here that the state he comes from is much less significant than how safe he is in Vermont. Assuming that he practices all the safety measures there is little to zero risk for transmission, even if he had the virus. Is he in close contact with people without masks for 15+ minutes? Probably not. Is he wearing a mask when in public and distancing? Probably yes.


I understand what you are saying, and it's one of the frustrations when rules have to be broad.  

But that's the hand we have been dealt.  And this person has self-professed that they spend the work week in a high risk environment.  We also know that two Mt. Snow groomers are now dead.  

But more importantly it's a real teaching moment for the children.  They could be taught that sometimes we have to make sacrifices, even when we don't agree with the logic behind the rules, because we are asked to protect the welfare of others.  Kids who are taught that lesson will become much better adults than kids who are taught to break the rules so they can work on their slalom form.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont has the third lowest unemployment rates in the country.  So you might be overreacting just a wee bit.
> 
> Also, we aren't shut down to 98% of the population.  We just ask that, if people come to Vermont, they quarantine before their kids go down a slalom course.


Over reacting? Let VT close for the winter and it back to me. Your tune will change pretty quickly. 

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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The only way VT will be able to stop non-VT residents from coming to VT this winter is to shut down all ski areas.


If people break the rules and there is an outbreak at a ski area - that is a very likely possibility.  

A subset of skiers will have ruined things for everyone else.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Over reacting? Let VT close for the winter and it back to me. Your tune will change pretty quickly.


Our rooms and meals taxes plummeted the past few months and yet we have the third lowest unemployment in the country.

Perhaps you should be less paternalistic and let Vermonters make their own decisions.


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## Not Sure (Oct 22, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think you’re missing a main point here that the state he comes from is much less significant than how safe he is in Vermont. Assuming that he practices all the safety measures there is little to zero risk for transmission, even if he had the virus. Is he in close contact with people without masks for 15+ minutes? Probably not. Is he wearing a mask when in public and distancing? Probably yes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Some anecdotal evidence: My mother was an assisted living facility that was doing really well up until a month and a half ago. A staff member spread it to 11 people my mother being one. She’s in her mid 90s and yesterday got her second negative test. Overall she was in pretty poor health to begin with but managed to beat it. When she was sent to the ER three weeks ago I spent five hours next to her thinking she was going to pass . The ER doctor on many occasions was 1 foot away from her face because she couldn’t talk very well. Everyone in the room had masks on, Neither myself or the ER doctor tested positive. To date and none of the people that tested positive and the nursing facility had passed away they’ve all survived. 
I understand people are still dying but I think the disease is being dealt with differently now.

One thing I don’t know that’s being measured is how many people are committing suicide, how many Cancer cases and other diseases are going undiagnosed due to the lockdowns?


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> One thing I don’t know that’s being measured is how many people are committing suicide,


Vermont's suicide rate has not risen.
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...d-mental-health-services-increase/3236486001/

That could be because we have low infection rates and low unemployment.


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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Nice attempt at deflection.  I am sure that when I had to travel to Saratoga for one night a few weeks ago I quarantined upon my return.  So, yeah.  I follow the rules.  Even though my entire time in the "yellow" county was spent outdoors when I was not in the hotel room.
> 
> 
> And you know full well that you can test negative on a Friday and be contagious on a Sunday.
> ...



So lets see VTKilarney. When you go skiing in the Northeast Kingdom this Winter, and say you come in contact with a local employee, who may of say gone to Burlington in the previous week (not at all an unrealistic thing and no interstate travel was involved by either party and the greater Burlington area certainly has been in the darker blue colors numerous weeks lately), how are you going to be sure that that employee didn't have it, as an asymptomatic carrier who passed all of the mountains health screening checks, and then pass it on to you? You can't be, unless of course you will be inside of your own closed air system breathing bubble, from the moment you leave your house until the moment you return.

I am aware of the risk of contracting COVID as well as spreading it. Heck, if I test positive, I'm out of work for at least 2 weeks, and if I'm not working, that directly effects my income. I am also quite aware that one can, with plenty of precautions and safe hygiene practices, function quite safely for myself, my family and my community with respect to COVID-19. Call me arrogant if you want. The reality is that there are many people in this society of have jobs where they don't have a choice about interacting with others in society, and with taking the proper steps, it can, and certainly has been done the overwhelming majority of the time, in a safe manor.

Only in a Utopian world is there no risk in our day to day lives. We all take steps to minimize those risks everyday. Life still needs to go on though.

If you want to keep nit picking various points in an attempt to "scorecard" this discussion, feel free to. Otherwise, I acknowledge and understand your perspective, and as of now, as it seems, I doubt I'll be getting much North of the Killington/Pico region this Winter, if even that far North, so you shouldn't have to worry about my regularly tested/or eventually vaccinated self heading up into your part of VT, and when I am not inside of my own residence in VT, I will 100% be adhering to the mask wearing and hand sanitizing guidelines, like you yourself are also supposed to be following to minimize the risk of infection.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> So lets see VTKilarney. When you go skiing in the Northeast Kingdom this Winter, and say you come in contact with a local employee, who may of say gone to Burlington in the previous week (not at all an unrealistic thing and no interstate travel was involved by either party and the greater Burlington area certainly has been in the darker blue colors numerous weeks lately), how are you going to be sure that that employee didn't have it, as an asymptomatic carrier who passed all of the mountains health screening checks, and then pass it on to you? You can't be, unless of course you will be inside of your own closed air system breathing bubble, from the moment you leave your house until the moment you return.


Look, I get it.  Rather than just admit that you are putting yourself before others you are desperately clinging to a false equivalency and ignoring the fact that certain rules apply to you that don't apply to me.  I have said before that I take issue with some of the rules.  That was especially true when I quarantined after being in Saratoga Springs for one night and doing only outdoor activities.  It SUCKED.  But it was the right thing to do and it was the right lesson to teach my children.

Okay... moving on...

Here are some Vermont opening dates:
https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/22/ver...ening-dates-still-waiting-on-states-guidance/


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## slatham (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney your analogy using the Boyd twins is wrong. They were infected in March before we understood the virus, before there were well understood protocols, before travel restrictions etc. And of course there was no tracing back to a "flattlander" being the source of infection. If this had happened this summer with some linkage to a tourist I would agree with you.

But you are correct that Dr Jeff and others are blatantly violating the VT rules. There really is no way around that. Justification based on safety measures notwithstanding - and its great that such safety measures are being taken - but it's a violation nonetheless.

That said the VT restrictions are too broad, and do not get to the core of the issue, which is behavior - people following the protocols in daily life and especially when they are in VT. There IS NO WAY VT avoided summer outbreaks without tourists and locals alike following protocols. The smoking gun you are looking for isn't there. 

And the unemployment rate is a snapshot in time, and is in fact low (though with government support). But I would argue that it will surge if the winter season is a full-out bust.

Edit: Thanks for the posting the opening dates link - it cheered me up. I am convinced there has been no VT guidance for ski areas as Scott plans to change them once elected......


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## thebigo (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont's suicide rate has not risen.
> https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...d-mental-health-services-increase/3236486001/
> 
> That could be because we have low infection rates and low unemployment.



At one point I located an excess death by state metric on the CDC website but I cannot seem to find it today. This is the best method of contrasting the response between states, total deaths in 2020 vs total deaths in 2019. At the time VT was slightly better than neighboring states, wish I could find the data.


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## Andrew B. (Oct 22, 2020)

So glad I live in a green county. Even though I am less than a mile from the red county where the rest of my family lives, my Job and shopping areas are the state of Vt. says I am good to go.
I feel much better about myself now.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

slatham said:


> But you are correct that Dr Jeff and others are blatantly violating the VT rules. There really is no way around that. Justification based on safety measures notwithstanding - and its great that such safety measures are being taken - but it's a violation nonetheless.
> *
> That said the VT restrictions are too broad, and do not get to the core of the issue, which is behavior*


As someone who quarantined after merely being outdoors in Saratoga Springs, I completely understand what you are saying.  For better or worse, every state in this country has had to enact rules that don't always factor in individual behavior.  It's the best we can do in an imperfect world.


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## abc (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> *You know as well as I do that you can get a negative test result on a Friday and be contagious on a Sunday*


So you're saying essential workers should not live their life AT ALL, is that right? 

What about him going to the grocery store where he lives? What about the restaurant he takes his family to? 

Many countries that has successfully kept the virus in check are allowing visitors WITH RECENT NEGATIVE TESTING RESULT! More over, those countries also have a rigorous track and trace program to follow up in case these visitors later tested positive. Those are the countries that has a far better economy recovery!

What's idiotic is Vermont's restriction NOT taking consideration of test, AND it's too lazy to bother with meaningful track and trace. Instead, it takes the lazy decision of banning all visitors from other states. Do you know how many essential workers travel to Vermont for ESSENTIAL BUSINESS? Are they being tested as frequently as DrJeff? Are they being monitored as to their contact with locals while there? 

The real reason we have such a piss poor result in controlling this pandemic is because the government is not using a scientific approach, not in actuality. "Rules" are drawn up without a real understanding of the science behind it, followed with zero enforcement. Instead, people are nitpicking on individuals actions that's clearly within the spirit of the science. 

I will "boycott" Vermont this winter. So those head-in-their-arse Vermonters gets to relish in their perceived safety while their economy goes down the toilet (well, not bothering getting a pass has more to do with my not travelling to Vermont  )


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

abc said:


> So you're saying essential workers should not live their life AT ALL, is that right?


No, I haven't said that whatsoever.  You can go back and check.

What I am saying is that there are scores of ski areas that welcome travelers from Connecticut, so perhaps skiing at one of those is a better option than breaking rules that Vermonters have embraced to keep themselves safe.  Rules that, while imperfect, have worked the best in the entire country.


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## Andrew B. (Oct 22, 2020)

abc said:


> So you're saying essential workers should not live their life AT ALL, is that right?
> 
> 
> What's idiotic is Vermont's restriction NOT taking consideration of test, AND it's too lazy to bother with meaningful track and trace. Instead, it takes the lazy decision of banning all visitors from other states. Do you know how many essential workers travel to Vermont for ESSENTIAL BUSINESS? Are they being tested as frequently as DrJeff? Are they being monitored as to their contact with locals while there?
> ...



Exactly


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## abc (Oct 22, 2020)

djd66 said:


> The only way VT will be able to stop non-VT residents from coming to VT this winter is to shut down all ski areas.


No, they only need to close all hotels, AirBnB's. 

We'll see how long Vermont locals can keep their state's economy afloat. 

It'll be a fantastic social experiment. Just like Sweden chose to NOT impose lockdown to test the impact of the virus. Vermont can chose to close its playground to out-of-staters by closing all travel related facilities, that'll test the impact to its economy. 

I'm all for it, other countries and states doing their social experiment in extreme measure or no measure, as long as it's not my own state!


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

It's interesting that the people trying to self-rationalize rule breaking are from other states that are faring MUCH worse with the pandemic.  

It's like taking cooking advice from Jeffrey Dahmer.

One thing to keep in mind is that, while tourism is down, numerous people from out of state have chosen to settle for a longer term in Vermont in order to ride out the pandemic.  They have injected quite a bit of money into the economy.  Many of them will return to their original homes when the pandemic has abated and when tourism will pick up again.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 22, 2020)

I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont. 


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## abc (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> as someone who lives not too far from the casinos in CT, and travels every day on my way to/from work up and down interstate 395


You commute everyday to Brooklyn from there? :-o

That's a hell of a long drive.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

abc said:


> You commute everyday to Brooklyn from there? :-o
> 
> That's a hell of a long drive.



It's only 40 minutes or thereabouts.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.


Vermont allows visitors to quarantine in their own home prior to traveling to Vermont.

There isn't a state in this country that has figured out a way to uniquely individualize Covid rules.  Some generalizations are inevitable - which will always result in a degree of imperfection.


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## Smellytele (Oct 22, 2020)

Once Biden is the prez and the dems control both the house and senate there will be nation wide rules.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## abc (Oct 22, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.


A green region that *legally* allows large gathering won't be green for long.


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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

abc said:


> You commute everyday to Brooklyn from there? :-o
> 
> That's a hell of a long drive.



There's actually a Brooklyn, CT, and that's where I live. I certainly don't commute to Brooklyn, NY from where I live in NE CT, that would be INSANE!!! :-o:-o:-o

I've got about a 20 minute commute to where my office is in one of the border towns with Mass (and don't get me going with how I have 1 set of state restrictions where I live/work, and then if I go 5 miles North over the border into MA there's another set of rules and if I go 5 miles East into RI there's a 3rd set of rules!!   ) 

This for certainty is a serious public health issue, that has grave consequences for some, no doubt about it. It is also a public health crisis that is blatantly exposing the ineptness of various governmental and regulatory officials as well as the influence that the media has over those who choose not to take the time to objectively look at the data that's out there about both how this virus can spread, as well as the relatively basic steps that we all can take to both reduce it's spread as well a continue to function in a fairly normal societal fashion.


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## Newpylong (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> This for certainty is a serious public health issue, that has grave consequences for some, no doubt about it. It is also a public health crisis that is blatantly exposing the ineptness of various governmental and regulatory officials as well as the influence that the media has over those who choose not to take the time to objectively look at the data that's out there about both how this virus can spread, as well as the relatively basic steps that we all can take to both reduce it's spread as well a continue to function in a fairly normal societal fashion.



I agree with this 100%. When you see people driving with masks on, people who put them on hiking, walking down a deserted street etc. It is very apparent that some folks do not look at what is known of this virus and go overboard on the hype. 

THAT said, the whole idea that this thing only effects a certain demographic more severely than oneself is what I take issue with. Is it going to kill me, being a ~40 year old? Likely not. I could land in the hospital if my asthma is effected. Butt, it's the higher age bracket, and those with more severe underlying conditions that we need to be aware of. The teachers in my children's school who bravely go to school every day to teach my kids, their grand parents, that old lady in food service still serving people because she can't afford to sit home, etc and so on.

The videos of 20 year old packed in the bars in Florida... make me want to punch the screen.

People need to start realizing it isn't just about them.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont's suicide rate has not risen.
> https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...d-mental-health-services-increase/3236486001/
> 
> That could be because we have low infection rates and low unemployment.





Smellytele said:


> Once Biden is the prez and the dems control both the house and senate there will be nation wide rules.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Let's keep the politics out of this

Thanks

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


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## skiur (Oct 22, 2020)

Most locals from Vermont I talk to are not fans of Vermont's rules as it's hurting them financially.  That may be because they live in resort areas but most of Vermont is resort areas.  Maybe VTKilarney should just hide under his bed until the vaccine comes out.


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## JimG. (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Additionally, if you want to bring up interstate travel, as someone who lives not too far from the casinos in CT, and travels every day on my way to/from work up and down interstate 395 which essentially connects from the Mass Pike in the Worcester area to the casinos, I can certainly tell you that more days than not, I do see the green license plates that VT is known for traveling my roads in CT, but then again, I am guessing that you may not have an issue with your fellow Vermonters and how they choose to live their lives, verses others, who may not be full time VT residents, but choose to live their lives, and likely in a responsible way as well. Again, that's your own choice, and thankfully we still can make our own choices in this country.



I was going to stay out of the discussion until I read this. I see green VT plates every day in Dutchess county NY. But I'm sure those VTers quarantine for 14 days after returning to VT or get tested.

Ya!


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## mister moose (Oct 22, 2020)

Those of you saying Vermont will crumble without tourism need to get over yourselves.  Tourism accounts for 6-8% of the Vermont economy.  What will be devastated is tourism dependent businesses and their employees.

The town I live in has had essentially no new cases in months.  A few towns on the 91 corridor have very high case rates, but zero information is being made available on any demographics.  Are these cases in nursing homes, prisons, schools, certain companies or neighborhoods?  Armed with usable information we could alter our behavior more intelligently if WE HAD MORE USABLE DATA.

Here's the Vermont travel map from last week:



Addison county had 902/M active cases according to the algorithm.  It's perfectly ok for all these folks to take their kids someplace, freely travel in VT to go shopping, hit a restaurant.

Same map and date:



Here's Rensellaer county, 646/M cases, 2/3 the rate of Addison county, yet Vermont thinks it's NOT OK for these folks to cross the border and do their business or have a sandwich.  

When you have rules that make no sense, it fosters disrespect for the rules.  People just go on with their lives.

Same for Vermonters shopping in West Leb NH, another yellow county.  But that's OK, I'm shopping and that's essential.  As if there isn't a grocery store in Woodstock, White River, Rutland, etc.  

Vermont is fortunate because it 1) has a small population, 2) is fairly rural, 3) has no significant transportation hubs, 4) has no travel intensive large industry base, and 4) has adopted a more stringent policy with regard to bars, restaurants and travel.

I get VK's desire to keep the State's COVID rate down.   It's hard to disagree with that in theory.  At today's rates in many nearby areas though the infection rates are low and adoption of the common sense well known procedures (hand washing, mask use, etc)  are  good enough to operate with some degree of normalcy.

Killington had a small outbreak at a private party where there was a lot of no mask wearing, hugging, all in an indoor room.  Early on back in January Boston's first outbreak was traced to a convention hall, again indoors with a lot of close contact.  Colorado, organized ski trip and parties with close contact among the large group.

Perhaps we should do both:  Open up slowly and progressively, but keep a loud and constant reminder of what behavior spreads this virus.  In other words, adopt healthy behavior over address.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I was going to stay of the discussion until I read this. I see green VT plates every day in Dutchess county NY. But I'm sure those VTers quarantine for 14 days after returning to VT or get tested.
> 
> Ya!



This Vermonter traveled for one night to Saratoga County and quarantined.


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## zoomzoom (Oct 22, 2020)

anyone would be a foole to receive a vaccine that hasn't gone through rigorous and typical clinical trials.  there haven't been any vaccines that have even made it out of phase 1 that i'm aware of.  all we have to control this outbreak is wearing facial coverings, physical distancing, and frequent handwashing.  the outbreaks that have happened regardless of these and other efforts have been effectively boxed in so far.  

add up the time periods for phase 1, 2 and 3 testing below.  we're not even close to a safe vaccine.  you may agree to receiving one, no farking way for my child at this time. there's been way too much political pressure for a vaccine prior to election day, and way too much money is at stake.  i just don't trust the bastards.             

https://www.antidote.me/blog/how-long-do-clinical-trial-phases-take


----------



## Hawk (Oct 22, 2020)

I will say this.  I think Dr Jeff's plan is solid regardless of the rules.  I think what VTKilarney isn't realizing is Dr. Jeff is not the real enemy.  You VT'ers have no idea of the amount of very conservative people down here that listen to the President and think that the virus is no big deal.  They don't wear masks, they don't like the rules and they are certainly heading your way this winter.  Those are the people that are going to shut down the state of Vermont not people like Dr Jeff.  You guys just live in a very liberal state and don't see these people as much so you don't know.   You'll see.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> I will say this.  I think Dr Jeff's plan is solid regardless of the rules.


I just wish Dr. Jeff was more honest about it.  I don't understand how someone who works in a high risk job thinks that they are on a moral high ground, but he could have just said, "Look.  Skiing is more important to me than the rules that Vermont has asked me to follow to protect their own citizens.  I don't give a crap what you people in Vermont think.  If I want to ski I'm skiing, dammit."

Have the backbone to call a spade a spade.


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## JimG. (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> This Vermonter traveled for one night to Saratoga County and quarantined.



Ah! And you represent all those green plates I see here in NY?

VTK I have no doubt you follow the rules as do I. But I am not foolish enough to assume my behavior is widespread. And you don't believe that either.


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## Hawk (Oct 22, 2020)

Is it technically against the rules?  Yes.  Does his gamble have a high percentage of causing infection?  I would say no.  For some it's a hard decision because you have spent so much time, so much money and it is part of your soul.  I do understand your concern.  I really do.  But you have to understand that Dr Jeff is the least of your worries.  There are people coming your way that really truly don't give a F---. and will put no effort into protecting anyone.  That is who I really would worry about.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Ah! And you represent all those green plates I see here in NY?
> 
> VTK I have no doubt you follow the rules as do I. But I am not foolish enough to assume my behavior is widespread. And you don't believe that either.



No, but your argument is one of false equivalency.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Is it technically against the rules?  Yes.  Does his gamble have a high percentage of causing infection?  I would say no.  For some it's a hard decision because you have spent so much time, so much money and it is part of your soul.  I do understand your concern.  I really do.  But you have to understand that Dr Jeff is the least of your worries.  There are people coming your way that really truly don't give a F---. and will put no effort into protecting anyone.  That is who I really would worry about.



I also completely understand your point.

I guess it boils down to the fact that the people willing to break the rules about coming to Vermont are also, on average, the type of people who are willing to break other rules and are more likely to get infected.  I've said in the past that one irony of the travel restrictions is that the careful people will stay home while the reckless people will still come.


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## JimG. (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> No, but your argument is one of false equivalency.




What VTers never break the rules?

Americans in general are renowned rules breakers.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I just wish Dr. Jeff was more honest about it.  I don't understand how someone who works in a high risk job thinks that they are on a moral high ground, but he could have just said, "Look.  Skiing is more important to me than the rules that Vermont has asked me to follow to protect their own citizens.  I don't give a crap what you people in Vermont think.  If I want to ski I'm skiing, dammit."
> 
> Have the backbone to call a spade a spade.


You've made your point VTK.  About twenty times now.  I know your legal profession has you predisposed to pound confessions of guilt out of people, but it really is okay to make a point and walk away in a normal social setting.  

We got it.  Dr Jeff is a selfish, snow groomer killing, flatlander.  Damn him!!!!

Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> It's interesting that the people trying to self-rationalize rule breaking are from other states that are faring MUCH worse with the pandemic.
> 
> It's like taking cooking advice from Jeffrey Dahmer.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that, while tourism is down, numerous people from out of state have chosen to settle for a longer term in Vermont in order to ride out the pandemic.  They have injected quite a bit of money into the economy.  Many of them will return to their original homes when the pandemic has abated and when tourism will pick up again.


Yeah, ironic isn't it that the state with the second lowest population total in the country is fairling so well with Covid.  Wyoming is the least populous state and they have quite a bit more cases than VT but only 3 more deaths.  So circumstances have nothing to do with how well Vermont has fared, it's all because of great leadership and ridiculous travel restrictions on non state citizens.  Come on.....

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

machski said:


> Wyoming is the least populous state and they have quite a bit more cases than VT


Which means that you can't just explain it away by saying that Vermont is rural.


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## ss20 (Oct 22, 2020)

Can't we all just agree that Vermont's travel restrictions suck and move on?


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## mikec142 (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I just wish Dr. Jeff was more honest about it.  I don't understand how someone who works in a high risk job thinks that they are on a moral high ground, but he could have just said, "Look.  Skiing is more important to me than the rules that Vermont has asked me to follow to protect their own citizens.  I don't give a crap what you people in Vermont think.  If I want to ski I'm skiing, dammit."
> 
> Have the backbone to call a spade a spade.




He was brutally honest.  More honest than most.  Said, in writing, exactly what his plans are for this ski season.  What you're looking for is for him to explain his plans in a way that would allow you to shame him more.  

I might turn this around and ask you to be more honest.  You've gone back and forth about a dozen times already and haven't said what it's clear you want to say.  Be honest.  Call him a selfish jerk or whatever you want and move on.


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## Smellytele (Oct 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Let's keep the politics out of this
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app



I wasn’t saying it was good or bad just what is.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

In other news... 

Killington and Pico season pass sales are up a combined 15% over last year.
https://www.newsbreak.com/vermont/k...resorts-see-increase-in-season-pass-purchases


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## dlague (Oct 22, 2020)

JimG. said:


> What VTers never break the rules?
> 
> Americans in general are renowned rules breakers.



That is what makes America great!  How many here have ducked ropes in this forum! For example!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You've made your point VTK.  About twenty times now.  I know your legal profession has you predisposed to pound confessions of guilt out of people, but it really is okay to make a point and walk away in a normal social setting.
> 
> We got it.  Dr Jeff is a selfish, snow groomer killing, flatlander.  Damn him!!!!
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app



I mean you just could of called me an arrogant a-hole to suffice DHS! :wink::wink:

In this world of trying to use proper preferred pronouns when identifying people, when in doubt, I just call them a-hole, since regardless of one's preferred pronoun, we all still have a-holes! :lol::lol::lol:


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## kbroderick (Oct 22, 2020)

machski said:


> Yeah, ironic isn't it that the state with the second lowest population total in the country is fairling so well with Covid.  Wyoming is the least populous state and they have quite a bit more cases than VT but only 3 more deaths.  So circumstances have nothing to do with how well Vermont has fared, it's all because of great leadership and ridiculous travel restrictions on non state citizens.  Come on.....
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Circumstances play a role, but I think it's hard to think that the different anti-Covid regulatory environments in Wyoming, Montana and the Dakotas versus New England aren't a significant part of the different results now. I'm worried that a lot of the "I won't fear the virus" mentality that is biting those states right now is going to also bite rural areas of northern New England—both areas got away with a lot early on, primarily due to low population density. That's clearly not enough in and of itself, particularly as it is a double-edged sword (it means fewer potential carriers, but it also usually means less medical-care infrastructure).


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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I just wish Dr. Jeff was more honest about it.  I don't understand how someone who works in a high risk job thinks that they are on a moral high ground, but he could have just said, "Look.  Skiing is more important to me than the rules that Vermont has asked me to follow to protect their own citizens.  I don't give a crap what you people in Vermont think.  If I want to ski I'm skiing, dammit."
> 
> Have the backbone to call a spade a spade.



Perspective thing for you and with what I do on a daily basis VTKilarney.  I HAVE to trust my patients and their answers to the COVID screening questions that we ask them before we have them come into my office (and potentially expose myself and my staff), I have to take their temperatures and feel comfortable with the result (granted we don't have a baseline "normal" body temperature for them, so I really can't judge if say a 99.0 temp scan reading is normal or elevated for that person, but those are the regulations in place, so I follow them and then have to use my best judgement as to if it's OK or not). I don't have to test myself or my staff, let alone biweekly, but I do. Short of when myself and my staff are having a quick drink of water or a quick snack, the entire time we're in the office, it's masks on 100% of the time. Wash my hands, no lie, 50+ times a day on a typical work day. Practice proper mask wearing protocols, Always have my mask on out in public, less the times when I am at a table eating in a local restaurant. I have not allowed patients to come into my office who refuse to wear a mask, even if I can certainly see some validity in their argument about what difference the mask would make in the roughly 25 feet between the front door to my office and my primary treatment room, when as soon as they sit in my chair, I am asking them to take their mask off, and keep it off until I have finished working on them.

Honestly, proper infection control is, and has been so second nature for me and my staff for decades, that unless you listen to the media opining that dentistry is one of the riskiest professions with respect to COVID-19 spread, we sure wouldn't think that. Heck there was just news story released this week about how, even after 6 months or so on average of direct patient treatment, that over 99% of dentists have and continue to test COVID negative, and the overwhelming majority of the 1% that tested positive had contact tracing to exposures that happened while not at work.

The reality is that when you go into most any direct patient care healthcare field, that from basically day 1, stringent infection control procedures and policies and hammered into your train of thought. So that day in and day out, you're just thinking about what you're doing for/on your patient, and not stressing about "am I going to catch this or that disease".  I am not naive enough to think that in the last 7+ months that I haven't treated an asymptomatic COVID-19 patient and/or come in contact with a similar person at say the grocery store. The reality is that the systems and protocols that I follow to keep myself safe, as well as my staff, do keep turning up negative COVID test after negative COVID test, so it either works, or we have just been incredibly lucky.  When you work, and have worked for closing in on 25 years now, a world full of aerosolized particles being generated less than 2 feet from your face, you really learn to both follow proper protocols for your own safety as well and learn to trust those protocols and pieces of protective equipment you wear, and do so in a way that at the end of the day, you feel like you will be posing no risk to your family when you get home.

Fault me if you want. You are certainly welcome to feel that way. I wholeheartedly feel that while technically not zero, the risk that myself and my family, given the plans that we have in place, for bringing COVID to our beloved portion of VT and then it spreading within the community, is about the same as getting struck by lightning. It's not zero, but it's pretty darn close, and likely much lower than many others who will travel to VT this Winter.

I respect the back and forth that we can have here, without it rapidly breaking down into a glorified temper tantrum worthy of a 2 year old in dire need of a nap! :flag:


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I respect the back and forth that we can have hear, without it rapidly breaking down into a glorified temper tantrum worthy of a 2 year old in dire need of a nap! :flag:


I was a bit over the top - so you have my apologies for that.


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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> I was a bit over the top - so you have my apologies for that.



Absolutely nothing to apologize for. We're both very passionate about the State and the Sport, and both want things to return to a much more "normal" way of day to day life again. I respect the perspective that you have brought to this spirited, but civil, discussion today


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Absolutely nothing to apologize for. We're both very passionate about the State and the Sport, and both want things to return to a much more "normal" way of day to day life again. I respect the perspective that you have brought to this spirited, but civil, discussion today



For some added context, we had a genuine scare this week.  On Saturday we attended a small dinner gathering (6 people).  It was our first indoor social gathering since March.  A couple of days later we learned that the child of the host family had a classmate that was diagnosed positive.  Knock on wood everyone seems to be fine, but it was extremely sobering.


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## drjeff (Oct 22, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> For some added context, we had a genuine scare this week.  On Saturday we attended a small dinner gathering (6 people).  It was our first indoor social gathering since March.  A couple of days later we learned that the child of the host family had a classmate that was diagnosed positive.  Knock on wood everyone seems to be fine, but it was extremely sobering.



Closest I have had to date, that I am aware of, is a friend of mine, who is a tax attorney, and my regular partner in 2 person golf tournaments at the club we belong to, and someone who by nature is very by the rules and careful with his interactions, back in July, we rode in a golf cart together during a club tournament for 18 holes on a Saturday. Being a golf cart, it's plenty of air flow through it, and we were obviously outside the entire time, and he's the type that even with a cart, will walk more than he rides. We weren't wearing masks in the cart. He texted me the following Tuesday that a client of his who he had seen in his office, who he sat across an 8 foot table from, but no masks on, tested positive (but asymptomatic) is a pre travel test that he took. My golf partner then tested positive after getting tested on that Tuesday. I tested negative when my golf partner told me about his positive test (at that time back in July we didn't have the rapid tests in my office that we initially got in early September, so I had a "regular" test at the drive  through clinic that my local CVS drugstore has). His wife and 2 college aged kids who were home with him before he found out tested negative as did myself.

My out of the office, outside mask wearing game, upped its level of what it covers with that one. So I do get the within the social circles threat potential and how that can make one feel


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## Brewbeer (Oct 22, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I wasn’t saying it was good or bad just what is.
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



The president and congress do not have authority to impose a country-wide mandates, it's up to the states.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 22, 2020)

Brewbeer said:


> The president and congress do not have authority to impose a country-wide mandates, it's up to the states.



They could withhold federal relief funds.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

Well looks like we now have our first "official " treatment for covid. 

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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Those of you saying Vermont will crumble without tourism need to get over yourselves.  Tourism accounts for 6-8% of the Vermont economy.  What will be devastated is tourism dependent businesses and their employees.
> 
> The town I live in has had essentially no new cases in months.  A few towns on the 91 corridor have very high case rates, but zero information is being made available on any demographics.  Are these cases in nursing homes, prisons, schools, certain companies or neighborhoods?  Armed with usable information we could alter our behavior more intelligently if WE HAD MORE USABLE DATA.
> 
> ...


Tourism brings 3 billion dollars annually to VT as well as VT having the 2nd hight second homes owners in the nation. No way VT can survive without replacing that.

Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## skef (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Absolutely nothing to apologize for. We're both very passionate about the State and the Sport, and both want things to return to a much more "normal" way of day to day life again. I respect the perspective that you have brought to this spirited, but civil, discussion today



(Grown men throughout the northeast crying their first tears ever at the beauty of this new friendship.)


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## mister moose (Oct 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Tourism brings 3 billion dollars annually to VT as well as VT having the 2nd hight second homes owners in the nation. No way VT can survive without replacing that.


Not sure where the $3B number comes from, but Vermont's GDP is 35B, so using your number you get 8.5% for Tourism's contribution to the VT economy.  It's important, but  I don't think you can state that losing half of 10% or all or whatever fraction of tourism that comes to VT this winter "Isn't survivable"  Of course it is.  Just not for the small restaurant owner at a resort town.

https://www.forbes.com/places/vt/#1afbea4668cb


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Not sure where the $3B number comes from, but Vermont's GDP is 27.4B, so using your number you get 10.9% for Tourism's contribution to the VT economy.  It's important, but  I don't think you can state that losing half of 10% or all or whatever fraction of tourism that comes to VT this winter "Isn't survivable"  Of course it is.  Just not for the small restaurant owner at a resort town.


If VT didn't have tourism they wouldn't have the 2nd highest second home owners in the nation. That injects a ton of money into VT. Probably all together 20% or more that's huge. 

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## mister moose (Oct 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> If VT didn't have tourism they wouldn't have the 2nd highest second home owners in the nation. That injects a ton of money into VT. Probably all together 20% or more that's huge.


Some of the sources I looked at for tourism's contribution to GDP takes into account second homeowners, short term rentals, etc.  

As you can see, I edited my post above as I shortly after saw the lower GDP figure was for 2016.  This Forbes number of $35B is more recent.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 22, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Some of the sources I looked at for tourism's contribution to GDP takes into account second homeowners, short term rentals, etc.
> 
> As you can see, I edited my post above as I shortly after saw the lower GDP figure was for 2016.  This Forbes number of $35B is more recent.


That's interesting.  I wonder if there is a breakdown somewhere on the internet. 

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## mister moose (Oct 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> That's interesting.  I wonder if there is a breakdown somewhere on the internet.


I found you had to crunch some numbers, but here's one breakdown that doesn't segment tourism.  You can see that government, medical, finance, construction and manufacturing make up a large majority of the State's GDP.


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## abc (Oct 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> There's actually a Brooklyn, CT, and that's where I live.


That's an interesting artifact of a comma!

It's a separator between the city (or village) and the state on an address 

It's also a separator between two addresses. So for those who have a second home, it's pretty typical to put a comma between them. 

Anyway, now I know there's a Brooklyn in Connecticut!


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## deadheadskier (Oct 22, 2020)

mister moose said:


> View attachment 27093
> 
> 
> I found you had to crunch some numbers, but here's one breakdown that doesn't segment tourism.  You can see that government, medical, finance, construction and manufacturing make up a large majority of the State's GDP.


Sure, but all of those take a big hit too when tourism goes down.  



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## BenedictGomez (Oct 23, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.



I think it’s more interesting that somebody who travels to Saratoga County, NY quarantines when they return home to Vermont, but doesn't similarly quarantine when they were in a Vermont town with a higher COVID19 positivity rate than Saratoga County, NY.

That said, I've seen & heard a lot of ****** up things the last 7 months.


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## Harvey (Oct 23, 2020)

Interesting from the NYT email digest this am:

_The coronavirus is spreading more rapidly in rural areas of the U.S. than in urban areas. But one rural state continues to do a fabulous job keeping the virus away: Vermont.

Vermont is succeeding partly because it has not allowed the virus to become a partisan issue. The Republican governor, Phil Scott — unlike many other Republican politicians around the country — has consistently told people to take the virus seriously. “He started wearing a mask early in the pandemic and has stood at the back of the room in many of the state’s coronavirus briefings, letting Dr. Mark Levine, Vermont’s answer to Dr. Anthony Fauci, dominate proceedings,” Bill McKibben, a Vermont resident, wrote in The New Yorker.

Vermont also benefits from having a high degree of social trust among its residents, as Maria Sacchetti explained in The Washington Post. And Vermont has two strong local media organizations — VTDigger and Seven Days — that keep residents informed and that both took an intriguing step early in the pandemic, McKibben notes: They shut down their comments sections, to prevent misinformation from spreading._

Not sure how to link an email for attribution so just putting this in:

Source: https://nytimes.com


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## Los (Oct 23, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> In other news...
> 
> Killington and Pico season pass sales are up a combined 15% over last year.
> https://www.newsbreak.com/vermont/k...resorts-see-increase-in-season-pass-purchases



Mad River Glen stopped selling passes a couple weeks ago as a result of high demand. 

The crowds this season will be epic. Combined with reduced uphill capacity, it’s going to be sheer misery.


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## Edd (Oct 23, 2020)

Los said:


> Mad River Glen stopped selling passes a couple weeks ago as a result of high demand.
> 
> The crowds this season will be epic. Combined with reduced uphill capacity, it’s going to be sheer misery.



Reduced uphill capacity? You mean less than other hills?


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## nhskier1969 (Oct 23, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Tourism brings 3 billion dollars annually to VT as well as VT having the 2nd hight second homes owners in the nation. No way VT can survive without replacing that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app



the gentleman above probably doesn't know anything about running a small buisness.  Small buisness ie ski shops/restaurants work a very slim margin.  You take 10% buisness away from them, most of them will close before the end of the season.  Thats what 10% does.


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## Los (Oct 23, 2020)

Edd said:


> Reduced uphill capacity? You mean less than other hills?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Sorry, my second comment wasn’t about MRG specifically. Rather, I meant to say that in general, except at maybe the smallest ski areas, the crowds this season are going to be in the stratosphere....


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## abc (Oct 23, 2020)

Edd said:


> Reduced uphill capacity? You mean less than other hills?


I think he's talking about the policy of not filling the chairs to full capacity. 

Smaller hills with no high capacity lifts (quad, 6 pack, gondola) may actually fair better in terms of "reduced uphill capacity". A double will very likely get filled, social distance or not, with a very small exceptions. Quad will rarely get filled. How they manage 6 pack and gondolas? I'm not holding my breath (literally)


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## Edd (Oct 23, 2020)

Thanks, I get what you guys are saying now. 


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 23, 2020)

Los said:


> Mad River Glen stopped selling passes a couple weeks ago as a result of high demand.
> 
> The crowds this season will be epic. Combined with reduced uphill capacity, it’s going to be sheer misery.


How will crowds be epic when resorts are on a reservation system?

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## Smellytele (Oct 23, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> How will crowds be epic when resorts are on a reservation system?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


LOS(loss of service) to his head. lift lines could still suck though. Also haven't seen any mention of what the spacing in a lift line will look like.


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## abc (Oct 23, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> How will crowds be epic when resorts are on a reservation system?


Not all the mountains are doing reservation.


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## slatham (Oct 23, 2020)

This sums it up nicely....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






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## kingslug (Oct 24, 2020)

That sums it up. Don't see how a day of skiing can get you infected or you can infect someone else..if..
Put your stuff on in the parking lot.
get on line
ski
repeat.
go home


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## Los (Oct 24, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> How will crowds be epic when resorts are on a reservation system?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app



In vt/nh, how many are requiring reservations? The only ones I’ve heard so far are Killington and Loon. Are there others? 

If there are, fantastic. But if not, my point stands - there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that pass sales (in general) are through the roof, which reflects an overwhelming desire to get outdoors. I hope that the lack of facilities - and irrational fear of covid - will help keep the crowds at bay, but all in all I’m bracing myself for stupidly long line lift lines, and, consequently, less runs and less skiing.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 24, 2020)

All of the Vail owned resorts require reservations 

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## Los (Oct 24, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> All of the Vail owned resorts require reservations
> 
> Sent from my SM-G973U using AlpineZone mobile app



Damn - should have bought an Epic pass...


----------



## dlague (Oct 24, 2020)

Pass sales may be up because many places have pass holder priority or pass holder require no reservations.  Otherwise, lift tickets have to be purchased at least 2 days in advance to some places requiring up to two weeks in advance and online only!


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 24, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> *anyone would be a foole to receive a vaccine that hasn't gone through rigorous and typical clinical trials.  there haven't been any vaccines that have even made it out of phase 1 that i'm aware of.*



Judging from this post, there is more you are not "aware of" when it comes to clinical investigation of potential vaccines & therapies, than you are aware of. FWIW, there are many COVID19 vaccines which are currently well into Phase III testing, all of which are gold standard, double-blinded, placebo-controlled, randomized studies, with thousands to tens-of-thousands of patients fully enrolled, & with advanced statistical analysis & followup.

For non-conspiracy theorists who may be interested in this subject, RAPS does a nice job tracking COVID19 trials

https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker



oompaloompa said:


> *add up the time periods for phase 1, 2 and 3 testing below.  we're not even close to a safe vaccine.*



Did it ever dawn on you that it might be far easier to develop & take a relatively simple proteinous vaccine through Phase III, than say, a novel monoclonal antibody therapy for metastatic breast cancer?

That was a rhetorical question.



oompaloompa said:


> there's been way too much political pressure for a vaccine prior to election day, and *way too much money is at stake*.



I doubt someone with your bent can be convinced otherwise, but other than the small players with a hand in it who may do well, there's not much "money" to be made by the large pharmaceutical companies in COVID19 vaccines.


----------



## abc (Oct 24, 2020)

Los said:


> Damn - should have bought an Epic pass...


Epic pass is still on sale. And only a $20-30 increase from the early purchase price.


----------



## JimG. (Oct 24, 2020)

dlague said:


> Pass sales may be up because many places have pass holder priority or pass holder require no reservations.  Otherwise, lift tickets have to be purchased at least 2 days in advance to some places requiring up to two weeks in advance and online only!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This!

Skiers who depend on day passes are going to have a tough time this coming season. A big reason the Indy pass is so popular.


----------



## kingslug (Oct 24, 2020)

I like vails response...we still feel we will be able to accommodate EVERYONE who wants to ski...
ok...so they feel the reservation system will not affect numbers..we shall see.


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## skiur (Oct 24, 2020)

Los said:


> In vt/nh, how many are requiring reservations? The only ones I’ve heard so far are Killington and Loon. Are there others?
> 
> If there are, fantastic. But if not, my point stands - there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that pass sales (in general) are through the roof, which reflects an overwhelming desire to get outdoors. I hope that the lack of facilities - and irrational fear of covid - will help keep the crowds at bay, but all in all I’m bracing myself for stupidly long line lift lines, and, consequently, less runs and less skiing.



Killington does not require reservation's to ski, only to park.


----------



## urungus (Oct 24, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This!
> 
> Skiers who depend on day passes are going to have a tough time this coming season. A big reason the Indy pass is so popular.



From what I have seen, Indy Pass holders are treated more like day pass purchasers than season pass holders.  For example, at Magic, no reservations are required for their own Season Pass holders, but (quoting from their site)

Indy Pass Holders are required to make a free reservation online on our website ticket page in advance as inventory will be limited, similar to ticket buyers. Once reserved, Indy Pass Holders can pick up their tickets at the outside season pass holder ticket window near lodge entrance on slope-side. Only arrive at Magic if you have a confirmed reservation online.


----------



## machski (Oct 24, 2020)

Los said:


> In vt/nh, how many are requiring reservations? The only ones I’ve heard so far are Killington and Loon. Are there others?
> 
> If there are, fantastic. But if not, my point stands - there is a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence that pass sales (in general) are through the roof, which reflects an overwhelming desire to get outdoors. I hope that the lack of facilities - and irrational fear of covid - will help keep the crowds at bay, but all in all I’m bracing myself for stupidly long line lift lines, and, consequently, less runs and less skiing.


Magic has stated they my use a reservation system but likely you can count the number of days on one hand, maybe a couple of fingers from the other hand.

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## NYDB (Oct 24, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Yup, my constant mask wearing self, who gets tested twice a week, is going to go back and forth to my property in VT weekly, as long as I pass the same health checks my patients have to to come into my office, and I feel well, and keep testing negative and/or have received a vaccine if/when it becomes available.
> 
> And I know for sure that I am by far not the only one planning on doing this, except most others won't be doing the same regular testing and/or health checks.
> 
> ...


 That's alot of fancy words to say...fuck you imma do what I want.  But I appreciate your honesty.  

Most of my friends here on eastern LI have the same attitude.  

I expect it won't be much of an issue until the VT hospitals start filling up.


----------



## thebigo (Oct 24, 2020)

My wife works in the largest hospital in the nh seacoast. She was exposed eight days ago. She has tested negative four times, has no symptoms but she is staying home while I bring both our daughters to their birthday party tomorrow. The birthday party is a few friends at the local horse farm in our 4000 person,  50 sq mile town. She is getting called 1 - 2 times a day by nh dhhs, tracking her movements. 

Do the right thing people, we need to get this shit behind us.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 24, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I like *vails response...we still feel we will be able to accommodate EVERYONE who wants to ski...*
> ok...so they feel the reservation system will not affect numbers..we shall see.



If they're so certain, it begs the question of what is the point of their reservation system.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Oct 25, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> That's alot of fancy words to say...fuck you imma do what I want.  But I appreciate your honesty.
> 
> Most of my friends here on eastern LI have the same attitude.
> 
> I expect it won't be much of an issue until the VT hospitals start filling up.


What town are you in on eastern LI?

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## drjeff (Oct 25, 2020)

I wonder if on some level the reservation system is a way to increase the potential for contact tracing, should there be a spreader event tied to a specific ski area on a specific day?

Much easier to start the task of contact tracing if you have a complete list of everyone who was there than if you're starting point is a media notification of "if you were at this ski resort on this day, please monitor yourself for symptoms and get tested, and not everyone who was there that day may see the notification





BenedictGomez said:


> If they're so certain, it begs the question of what is the point of their reservation system.



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## slatham (Oct 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If they're so certain, it begs the question of what is the point of their reservation system.



1) If there is a chance you’ll need a reso system, better to start with one and get everyone familiar with it. If you end up not needing it it’s easy to stop requiring reservations. It would be much more difficult to try to impose a reservation system mid-ski season.
2) While it’s likely reservations will not be needed everyday, it is highly likely they will be over holidays. So you’ll need a system in place.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 25, 2020)

drjeff said:


> *I wonder if on some level the reservation system is a way to increase the potential for contact tracing, should there be a spreader event tied to a specific ski area on a specific day?*



That's an excellent point.

Though the cynical response is that as some here have suspected, the "reservation system" is hurting them financially, and they're trying to walk back fears that it could prevent you from skiing any given day.


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## kingslug (Oct 25, 2020)

I would say the res system is definitely a good tracking system..


----------



## 1dog (Oct 26, 2020)

Tracking fits. Its all about Big Data. The more you have on an unsuspecting public the more control you have, the more $$ you can earn by selling it. 
Many of these are good-willed efforts to keep people safe. Its almost unavoidable in most walks of life today. Whether Google ( as opposed to Duck Duck Go) or your transponder in your automobile, or your smart phone, 'they' can find out just about everything they want or need or desire.
Much of it for good, more than enough for nefarious purposes . . . and there is the loss of freedom, regardless of what we want to believe.


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## tumbler (Oct 26, 2020)

kingslug said:


> I would say the res system is definitely a good tracking system..



Most resorts have RFID so resi system not needed, they can check who was scanned in and at what time.


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## cdskier (Oct 26, 2020)

Didn't read this board much for a week...quite a lot of discussion while I was away I see!



Slidebrook87 said:


> I think it’s more interesting that somebody who stays home and takes all safety precautions in their home town and in Vermont is somehow “illegal” to come to Vermont when somebody from a green county who does not follow safety precautions and has large gatherings is “legal” to come to Vermont.



I've made this very argument in the past. You can have a person living in a "green" county that follows no rules about masks or social distancing, thinks the virus isn't real, travels to yellow and red counties for work or shopping or play every day, etc and VT thinks it is ok to welcome that person with open arms simply because they are lucky enough to live in a county that has low cases. Yet someone that lives in a red or yellow county and only leaves their home to go grocery shopping while wearing a mask and washing hands, etc is somehow "evil".



mister moose said:


> Those of you saying Vermont will crumble without tourism need to get over yourselves.  Tourism accounts for 6-8% of the Vermont economy.  What will be devastated is tourism dependent businesses and their employees.
> 
> ...
> 
> When you have rules that make no sense, it fosters disrespect for the rules.  People just go on with their lives.



There are a lot of businesses that aren't classified as "tourism" that would suffer as well as tourism has a ripple effect on many other industries. Real simple example...if people can't travel to 2nd homes in VT, then they use less electricity and propane or perhaps turn off their cable tv. So then the power, gas, telecom companies would see their numbers go down. That wouldn't be classified as "tourism", yet it is very much an impact and just one "non-tourism" example of a potential impact. And of course if a lot of the "tourism" dependent businesses in a town go out of business, then that town becomes less desirable as a second homeowner location. Then real estate values drop. There very much is a bigger impact than just looking at "tourism" revenue itself.

Your other point though I completely agree with. Vermonters that genuinely believe their overly complex and restrictive travel rules are the primary reason their cases are low are living in fantasy land. A lot of "high risk" people are still traveling to VT because they don't care about rules in the first place. If everyone was actually following VT's rules...VT would have had very few tourists there in the summer and fall. That wasn't the case at all from people I talked to up there. And I would bet that a sizeable chunk of tourists did not strictly follow VT's quarantine guidance. But VT'ers can continue to think their quarantine and travel rules are making a big difference if it makes them feel better...


----------



## mister moose (Oct 26, 2020)

cdskier said:


> There are a lot of businesses that aren't classified as "tourism" that would *suffer* as well as tourism has a ripple effect on many other industries. Real simple example...if people can't travel to 2nd homes in VT, then they use less electricity and propane or perhaps turn off their cable tv. So then the power, gas, telecom companies would see their numbers go down. That wouldn't be classified as "tourism", yet it is very much an impact and just one "non-tourism" example of a potential impact. And of course if a lot of the "tourism" dependent businesses in a town go out of business, then that town becomes less desirable as a second homeowner location. Then real estate values drop. There very much is a bigger impact than just looking at "tourism" revenue itself.


Suffer vs [VT will] crumble or 'No way VT can survive' or devastated.  Of course tourism affects many industries.  It's just when you look at statewide numbers tourism isn't pivotal, like say in USVI.

Here's another thing to consider:  With all the recent consolidation, lift ticket revenue this lean year is going out west to the conglomerates, not controlled locally in VT like it would have 20 years ago.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 26, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Suffer vs [VT will] crumble or 'No way VT can survive' or devastated.  Of course tourism affects many industries.  It's just when you look at statewide numbers tourism isn't pivotal, like say in USVI.



There's a lot you're not considering though.  If we "banned" tourism in the state of Vermont, you'd lose a high percentage of your high tax second homes.  You'd probably lose a lot of homeowners from other high tax environs like Stowe, etc..  There are just so many knock-on secondary & tertiary (and more) economic effects which I believe would be massive.  When a restaurant closes, not only are the staff laid off, but every vendor loses a customer.  Is it a big resto contract?  Then the vendor lays off people too.  More taxes lost.  It sets off a negative cycle.  It would certainly blow a hole in State of Vermont's budget.  I guess it all depends on the subjective definition of "crumble".  If you mean, people eating from garbage cans, then no.  But if we mean it as serious economic impairment, then I'd say yes.


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## mister moose (Oct 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's a lot you're not considering though.  If we "banned" tourism in the state of Vermont, you'd lose a high percentage of your high tax second homes.  You'd probably lose a lot of homeowners from other high tax environs like Stowe, etc.


We're talking about loss of tourism for one season here, right?


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## tnt1234 (Oct 26, 2020)

kingslug said:


> That sums it up. Don't see how a day of skiing can get you infected or you can infect someone else..if..
> Put your stuff on in the parking lot.
> get on line
> ski
> ...



Some Covid positive boner coughing on you on a chair lift ride?


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## urungus (Oct 27, 2020)

tnt1234 said:


> Some Covid positive boner coughing on you on a chair lift ride?



I am not going to get on a chair with any strangers. I’m more concerned with standing next to a group of strangers for several minutes each time I’m waiting in the line for the chairlift.


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## abc (Oct 27, 2020)

urungus said:


> I am not going to get on a chair with any strangers. I’m more concerned with standing next to a group of strangers for several minutes each time I’m waiting in the line for the chairlift.


Use your skis and poles to enforce your “social distancing bubble”!


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 27, 2020)

exactly 

if you aren't in my social bubble you are going to be a ski pole away and arm length away from me whether you like it or not.


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## urungus (Oct 27, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> exactly
> 
> if you aren't in my social bubble you are going to be a ski pole away and arm length away from me whether you like it or not.



Hmm how about a “bubble” like this


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## urungus (Oct 27, 2020)

Today’s Vermont map update is not looking good


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 27, 2020)

LOL

I wouldn't want to pop that person's bubble!

I love the Flaming Lips!

They used to start their concerts with the singer in one of those bubbles rolling out over the crowd while the band played an escalating in volume Jam.


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## mbedle (Oct 27, 2020)

urungus said:


> Today’s Vermont map update is not looking good
> 
> View attachment 27112



Don't expect that to get any greener in the next couple of months.


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## Boxtop Willie (Oct 27, 2020)

One wonders if restrictions will change post-election?


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## tumbler (Oct 27, 2020)

I like the 3 different color blues for VT that equal the green, yellow and red.  And that all 3 blue colors are represented. :roll:


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## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2020)

At some point you have to wonder if Vermont just completely shuts down to non-essential out of state travelers.


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## cdskier (Oct 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I like the 3 different color blues for VT that equal the green, yellow and red.  And that all 3 blue colors are represented. :roll:



Yup...5 counties in VT that would qualify for their own travel restrictions and quarantine rules if they were in any other state...


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## ScottySkis (Oct 27, 2020)

Boxtop Willie said:


> One wonders if restrictions will change post-election?



I think so


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## mister moose (Oct 27, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yup...5 counties in VT that would qualify for their own travel restrictions and quarantine rules if they were in any other state...


When your numbers start looking too high, raise the map color thresholds.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 27, 2020)

tumbler said:


> *I like the 3 different color blues for VT that equal the green, yellow and red.  And that all 3 blue colors are represented.* :roll:



  Slimy even by low political standards.  Someone paid attention in their _psychology of colors_ unit during Marketing.



cdskier said:


> *5 counties in VT that would qualify for their own travel restrictions and quarantine rules if they were in any other state*...



Yet there's no intra-state travel restrictions in Vermont.  Which makes sense, because, Vermont.


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## Not Sure (Oct 27, 2020)

Best laid plans


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## ss20 (Oct 27, 2020)

urungus said:


> Today’s Vermont map update is not looking good
> 
> View attachment 27112



Lmao.  That rural Virginia county probably has population under 2k and travel to neighboring counties is necessary to get to dat dem Wally-mart and de Dolla' Gen'ral where the RONA is sky high but they're safe to come to VT because they're in the lucky zip code.  



I think a better way VT could go about this is tracking their hospital capacity.  If under x number of ICU beds are available, ban all out-of-staters.


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## Slidebrook87 (Oct 27, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Lmao.  That rural Virginia county probably has population under 2k and travel to neighboring counties is necessary to get to dat dem Wally-mart and de Dolla' Gen'ral where the RONA is sky high but they're safe to come to VT because they're in the lucky zip code.
> 
> 
> 
> I think a better way VT could go about this is tracking their hospital capacity.  If under x number of ICU beds are available, ban all out-of-staters.



Or just put stronger enforcement and repercussions in place for those who do not follow safety guidelines  


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## ss20 (Oct 27, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Or just put stronger enforcement and repercussions in place for those who do not follow safety guidelines
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



...that's a MASSIVE legal can-of-worms.  And they know it.


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## abc (Oct 27, 2020)

ss20 said:


> ...that's a MASSIVE legal can-of-worms.  And they know it.


Not when there’s a national health emergency!

But of course we’re NOT in a health emergency. Not for “just a bad flu”


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## abc (Oct 27, 2020)

Dp


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## icecoast1 (Oct 28, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Lmao.  That rural Virginia county probably has population under 2k and travel to neighboring counties is necessary to get to dat dem Wally-mart and de Dolla' Gen'ral where the RONA is sky high but they're safe to come to VT because they're in the lucky zip code.
> 
> 
> 
> I think a better way VT could go about this is tracking their hospital capacity.  If under x number of ICU beds are available, ban all out-of-staters.





Is there even anyone in an icu bed in VT due to Covid currently?


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## gittist (Oct 28, 2020)

The new safer ski area COVID standard operating procedures are at https://www.hsdl.org/?abstract&did=1035.  Looking forward to seeing people wearing MOPP suits and going through decon stations before they get in a lift line. Safety is the number one priority! Does this go too far? Not for some.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 28, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Is there even anyone in an icu bed in VT due to Covid currently?



There are seven people that are hospitalized.  They do not say how many of those are in the ICU.


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## drjeff (Oct 28, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Is there even anyone in an icu bed in VT due to Covid currently?





VTKilarney said:


> There are seven people that are hospitalized.  They do not say how many of those are in the ICU.



For reference perspective, looking up hospital bed stats for the State of VT, there are 835 total hospital beds in VT (there are actually likely some more, but the stats for the VA Hospital in White River Junction aren't included), and 135 ICU beds in the state of VT. Obviously not all of those ICU beds would/could be used for just serious COVID patients, as there are almost always patients sick and/or recovering from other medical situations, without COVID, who will occupy some of those ICU beds


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## zoomzoom (Oct 28, 2020)

for the latest data
https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf


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## 2Planker (Oct 28, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> for the latest data
> https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/Covid-19-Daily-Update.pdf



Those are definitely the worst state stats I've seen yet.
  No daily testing stats
  No 7 day avg positivity rates
  No geographical data

MA, RI, even Maine have way better state stats,  WAY better


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## ss20 (Oct 28, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Those are definitely the worst state stats I've seen yet.
> No daily testing stats
> No 7 day avg positivity rates
> No geographical data
> ...



They don't want people to know how little Covid there is in their state so the "re-open now!" people don't get too agitated.  VT has done a terrific job keeping it out, I'll give them that.


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## dlague (Oct 28, 2020)

Could skiing be canceled before it starts?


https://www.coloradohometownweekly....lorados-ski-season-before-it-even-begins/amp/


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## mbedle (Oct 29, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Those are definitely the worst state stats I've seen yet.
> No daily testing stats
> No 7 day avg positivity rates
> No geographical data
> ...



https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites...df/COVID19-Weekly-Data-Summary-10-16-2020.pdf


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## kingslug (Oct 29, 2020)

[FONT=&quot]Nearly all of this is happening through socialization — an evening party, drinks after work, hanging too close with too many people. Many of the transmissions have occurred in the late evening, after partying, when peoples’ guards are down.

This is the problem.
My worry is this will happen in VT once things ramp up. Hope not or this season will end quickly.
If you just show up ..ski..then go back to wherever you came from it might work. Big ski houses with lots of people..not so much.[/FONT]


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## NYDB (Oct 29, 2020)

kingslug said:


> [FONT=&quot]Nearly all of this is happening through socialization — an evening party, drinks after work, hanging too close with too many people. Many of the transmissions have occurred in the late evening, after partying, when peoples’ guards are down.
> 
> This is the problem.
> My worry is this will happen in VT once things ramp up. Hope not or this season will end quickly.
> If you just show up ..ski..then go back to wherever you came from it might work. Big ski houses with lots of people..not so much.[/FONT]



I think about 15% of people will actually be disciplined enough to do that for the entire season.


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## kingslug (Oct 29, 2020)

yup and thats the problem. This huge surge across the globe is from people just saying...fuck it.


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## 1dog (Oct 29, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Those are definitely the worst state stats I've seen yet.
> No daily testing stats
> No 7 day avg positivity rates
> No geographical data
> ...



US has lowest death rate per week since started counting - March 22. 

from cnsnews.com

For example, there were 21.1 COVID cases in the last seven days per 100,000 people in this country; and 0.2 deaths in the last seven days per 100,000 people.


The states with the most deaths (0.8 - 1) in the last seven days per 100,000 people are Montana and North and South Dakota; the states with the fewest deaths (zero) in the last seven days per 100,000 people are Vermont and Maine.


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## JimG. (Oct 29, 2020)

dlague said:


> Could skiing be canceled before it starts?
> 
> 
> https://www.coloradohometownweekly....lorados-ski-season-before-it-even-begins/amp/
> ...



Great to see the local officials pleading with locals to follow restrictions and dispelling the utter nonsense that any state's COVID cases are due to non-residents.


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## mbedle (Oct 29, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Great to see the local officials pleading with locals to follow restrictions and dispelling the utter nonsense that any state's COVID cases are due to non-residents.



What, non-residents can't spread the coronavirus in states they travel to???


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 29, 2020)

mbedle said:


> What, non-residents can't spread the coronavirus in states they travel to???



Think is a combo of both. Some bring it in but then residents spread it out from there.


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## abc (Oct 29, 2020)

mbedle said:


> What, non-residents can't spread the coronavirus in states they travel to???


They maybe the ones "bringing it" there. But it takes the locals to "spread it" around amongst locals.


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## mister moose (Oct 29, 2020)

abc said:


> They maybe the ones "bringing it" there. But it takes the locals to "spread it" around amongst locals.


Locals also leave the state to work or shop, and they then are exposed to bringing it back to themselves.


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## abc (Oct 29, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Locals also leave the state to work or shop, and they then are exposed to bringing it back to themselves.


That too. 

If you think about it, visitor may get gas, buy grocery, go hiking, and even eat in a restaurant. All of those places tend to have some forms of social distancing policy in place. 

But the locals will go home, go to visit their relatives, go to church... I bet they're not wearing mask when they are at home or visiting the in-laws. They SPREAD the virus they caught from the visitors (or from their own out-of-state visits)!


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## zyk (Oct 29, 2020)

My wife got sent to Vermont for work due a covid situation.  She was given travel papers.  Not sure of protocol when she returns.  Strange times I guess.


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## tumbler (Oct 29, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Locals also leave the state to work or shop, and they then are exposed to bringing it back to themselves.



https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/29/vermont-lawmakers-lament-virus-rules-near-new-hampshire-line/


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## dlague (Oct 29, 2020)

kingslug said:


> yup and thats the problem. This huge surge across the globe is from people just saying...fuck it.



We say fuck it but with responsibility - we have traveled, hiked, eaten out, gone to events and all has been good!  It is those who say fuck it and assemble in large crowds or feel invincible that are being stupid.  In Colorado the three main groups are nursing homes (still), prisons, and universities.


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## zoomzoom (Oct 29, 2020)

vt has added some some new data categories in their weekly reporting: hospitalized in ICU, 7-day positive rate and total tests.  they've thanked those who provided feedback in a recent survey.    

https://files.constantcontact.com/a0530340101/3b1f85c2-462f-46f4-b118-4488aa2b1966.pdf


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## JimG. (Oct 29, 2020)

tumbler said:


> https://www.wcax.com/2020/10/29/vermont-lawmakers-lament-virus-rules-near-new-hampshire-line/



This perfectly illustrates the only point I was trying to make.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2020)

dlague said:


> We say fuck it but with responsibility - we have traveled, hiked, eaten out, gone to events and all has been good!  It is those who say fuck it and assemble in large crowds or feel invincible that are being stupid.  In Colorado the three main groups are nursing homes (still), prisons, and universities.



Yup.   You have to live your life.  And as non-PC as it sounds, for most people the risk of this virus is greatly over-worried to the point that I think 100 years from now it will be looked back upon and psychologically studied as a true hysteria, in the literal as opposed to the figurative use of that word.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup.   You have to live your life.  And as non-PC as it sounds, for most people the risk of this virus is greatly over-worried to the point that I think 100 years from now it will be looked back upon and psychologically studied as a true hysteria, in the literal as opposed to the figurative use of that word.



I agree with BG lol


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 29, 2020)

dlague said:


> We say fuck it but with responsibility - we have traveled, hiked, eaten out, gone to events and all has been good!  It is those who say fuck it and assemble in large crowds or feel invincible that are being stupid.  In Colorado the three main groups are nursing homes (still), prisons, and universities.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We've done the same.  We have a bubble of friends who are all like minded as well.

In a lot of ways I've not really changed my habits. We don't eat out tons now or before.  When we do there are social distancing rules I effect.

As winter approaches not sure how this is all going to work.  Skiing indoor life etc.  Hopefully it can stay stays quo, but who knows with the "surge" happening.



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## BenedictGomez (Oct 29, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> *As winter approaches not sure how this is all going to work.*



I think sales of these are going to break all-time records & possibly even sell-out & not be available.  

Unfortunately I have not been able to find a way to play it via equity as I did with WGO.


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## kingslug (Oct 30, 2020)

And then I watch some news...Montana hospital almost full..26 dead. Its like another world this is happening in. Then I go to work..10 people out of 1000 in my building..were preparing to board up the windows for the election. Just fucking ...nuts.


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## Los (Oct 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup.   You have to live your life.  And as non-PC as it sounds, for most people the risk of this virus is greatly over-worried to the point that I think 100 years from now it will be looked back upon and psychologically studied as a true hysteria, in the literal as opposed to the figurative use of that word.



Well said.


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## dlague (Oct 30, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Think is a combo of both. Some bring it in but then residents spread it out from there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



It is not the non locals bringing it in - maybe in some cases but not 100% there are locals that are also getting it by commingling with locals!  Technically when this first started there were non locals that brought it in but once it was in a state it does not mean non locals kept it going!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smellytele (Oct 30, 2020)

dlague said:


> It is not the non locals bringing it in - maybe in some cases but not 100% there are locals that are also getting it by commingling with locals!  Technically when this first started there were non locals that brought it in but once it was in a state it does not mean non locals kept it going!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Didn’t say any of that so I agree. 
Not knowing what was going to happen the rules and guidelines were set up too late to make much of a difference.

People “escaped” from infected areas and the game was on. When people can have it without symptoms then not much you can do but test everyone and then quarantine everyone for 14 days then test everyone again. Not realistic.


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## Smellytele (Oct 30, 2020)

Killington... 





The season is right around the corner, and we can’t wait for the Longest Season in the East to get started. Over a month ago we sent out our Winter Operations Plan and although we included a lot of detail, we still had some unanswered questions that we will address today. You will find high-level information below and we encourage you to click the links to our website for all the details.  

Our continued goal is to ensure the wellbeing of all, and an important part of Operation Stay Safe is managing the number of people on property at any given time. Doing so will enable appropriate physical distancing so that you may stay safe and have a great, fun-filled Killington Resort experience.    

Parking reservations are an important part of us ensuring all at the resort are able to appropriately physically distance. The parking reservation system will be in place every day of the season and parking spaces must be reserved before arriving to the resort to ensure availability. Starting Thursday, November 5, at 10:00 a.m. you can book up to seven advance days throughout the season. Once the season begins, you will also be able to book an unlimited number of days in the immediate rolling 7-day window. As your advance days fall into the rolling 7-day window, you can book additional advance days, only reserving up to seven at any given time. See more details and examples to better explain how it works here.   

We will continue to ask guests to treat your car like a base lodge and, if you can, boot up at your car. After further consideration and feedback from you – our core guests – we understand that for some access to the lodge to put boots on in the morning is needed. We will allow guests to boot up in a lodge (if building capacity allows); however, bags cannot be left in the lodge and  bag check will be moved to a new location that can be accessed at the end of the day from outside.

Although we announced our anticipated opening dates at Killington and Pico this date continues to be dependent on having top-to-bottom skiing and riding with access to multiple base area lifts. If Mother Nature does not allow us to achieve this, we will delay our opening date. From Opening Day through Sunday, November 22, access to the mountain will be reserved for Killington Season Passholders and Ikon guests only. Express Card Holders, day tickets, buddy passes, vouchers etc. will be accepted starting Monday, November 23, and will be on-sale beginning Friday, November 6. Per state of Vermont guidance, guests can travel to Vermont only from approved counties on the Vermont Travel map or need to quarantine for 14 days prior to their arrival. This travel map is updated on a weekly basis, every Tuesday and we expect this policy to be in place throughout the season. 

For more information about what to expect this season, visit 20/21 Winter Operations. As a reminder, these plans are subject to change once the state of Vermont issues and approves ski resort restart guidance. We look forward to a great, fun-filled ski and ride season.    

As I stated in my last update, while there is always a competition to open first, we believe winning this year means all of us doing our part to put into place thoughtful plans and follow guidelines and best practices to keep one another safe, so that we may enjoy a full season of skiing and riding. I trust our commitment to continuing our candid communication gives you confidence in our plans for the upcoming season. I know everyone is continuing to adapt in their own way and I wanted to make sure you know how we continue to adjust.  
   
If you still have questions we haven’t answered yet, please submit them here.   

I look forward to seeing you on the trails. 

Mike Solimano
President & General Manager  
Learn More About Parking Reservations
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Killington Resort 4763 Killington Rd, Killington, Vermont 05751
Copyright [emoji767] 2020 Killington/Pico Resort Partners LLC. All Rights Reserved.

This email was sent to tim.lamphere@comcast.net. 
If you do not wish to receive any further email from us, please unsubscribe 



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## JimG. (Oct 30, 2020)

After reading the email from K this morning, I'm pretty sure my next move is to get my money back from K for the pass I bought for this season. This parking plan is going to be a total mess. Do they really expect that people will do the right thing and cancel parking reservations they made but now can't use? Hey, I've got a nice bridge for sale.

Not a lot of money anyway, about $450. I'll take $250 of that and buy a Plattekill reserved parking pass. Premier parking right near the lodge guaranteed to be available to the parking passholder until 11am on any day skiing is open. That's the way to treat your customers!


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## kingslug (Oct 30, 2020)

I'm just going to see how it goes. When I want to go there ..which isn;t that often I'll give it a try. If I get skunked enough with parking..then I won't. I'm not expecting much out of this season anyway...


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2020)

It's really tough to mentally wargame this out predictively, but my base case is that ski resorts are really underestimating the net "P.I.T.A. factor" some of these rules & changes will be to people, and it will lead to a not insignificant number of people saying, _"screw it"_ - primarily the casual 1 to 5 time per year skier types, the families with young children, and the folks who enjoy being pampered.  My 2¢.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> I agree with BG lol



I find that odd, because when I said almost the exact same thing circa April 2020 you ripped me a new one.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I find that odd, because when I said almost the exact same thing circa April 2020 you ripped me a new one.



Altt has changed since then
Sorry about that


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## Los (Oct 30, 2020)

Really bummed -- I bought MRG passes and put 3 of the kids into seasonal programs there. I was in a "safe" NH county until this week. Called MRG today to fish for info to see if I could still make it work - i.e. how I might be able to get away with day tripping from NH to VT all winter when clearly NH is going to be closed to day trippers this year because of the Covid hysteria. I'm willing to say screw it to Vermont's obnoxious quarantining laws (knowing that my family isn't really doing anything but going to work and school). But here's where my scheming fell apart: they're going to ask each child every day of the program if they're been quarantining. So, smartly, MRG knows that while many of us parents are willing to skirt the insane and irrational quarantining rules - there's no way in hell we're going to put our kids in a position of having to lie. So, that's it. Game's over. (I'm not criticizing MRG in any way, I'm just pointing out that they've figured out a very effective way of keeping day tripping kids from "bad" counties out of their kids programs...). 

So now I'm trying to figure out what to do. We have Ikon passes but since we live in NH, we technically won't be allowed to use them in VT and we only have 7 days at Loon. To supplement our Ikon passes then, I'm trying to decide whether to get Epic passes (for the 4 NH areas) or Cannon passes. To help me decide, I'm wondering if anyone might be willing to say what they'd get - Epic or Cannon - if that's the choice they were facing at this point...


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## Smellytele (Oct 30, 2020)

Los said:


> Really bummed -- I bought MRG passes and put 3 of the kids into seasonal programs there. I was in a "safe" NH county until this week. Called MRG today to fish for info to see if I could still make it work - i.e. how I might be able to get away with day tripping from NH to VT all winter when clearly NH is going to be closed to day trippers this year because of the Covid hysteria. I'm willing to say screw it to Vermont's obnoxious quarantining laws (knowing that my family isn't really doing anything but going to work and school). But here's where my scheming fell apart: they're going to ask each child every day of the program if they're been quarantining. So, smartly, MRG knows that while many of us parents are willing to skirt the insane and irrational quarantining rules - there's no way in hell we're going to put our kids in a position of having to lie. So, that's it. Game's over. (I'm not criticizing MRG in any way, I'm just pointing out that they've figured out a very effective way of keeping day tripping kids from "bad" counties out of their kids programs...).
> 
> So now I'm trying to figure out what to do. We have Ikon passes but since we live in NH, we technically won't be allowed to use them in VT and we only have 7 days at Loon. To supplement our Ikon passes then, I'm trying to decide whether to get Epic passes (for the 4 NH areas) or Cannon passes. To help me decide, I'm wondering if anyone might be willing to say what they'd get - Epic or Cannon - if that's the choice they were facing at this point...


 just an FYI - Cannon is stopping the sale of season passes on Sunday Nov 1


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## Los (Oct 30, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> just an FYI - Cannon is stopping the sale of season passes on Sunday Nov 1



Exactly - that’s why I’m under the gun to make a decision...


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## gittist (Oct 30, 2020)

"...but my base case is that ski resorts are really underestimating the net "P.I.T.A. factor" some of these rules & changes will be to people, and it will lead to a not insignificant number of people saying, "screw it"."

I agree and "screw it' is putting it mildly. 

"Covid hysteria..." Good choice of words. Is COVID a concern? Yes. 

But a lot of people, including those in control are on the hysterical wagon. 

I can this already. Assuming I go skiing this year (see P.I.T.A. factors) I'll be on a chair lift all by my lonesome, no one in sight except for someone will a megaphone a hundred yards away yelling for me to pull my mask back up!


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## 1dog (Oct 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yup.   You have to live your life.  And as non-PC as it sounds, for most people the risk of this virus is greatly over-worried to the point that I think 100 years from now it will be looked back upon and psychologically studied as a true hysteria, in the literal as opposed to the figurative use of that word.


  Yes, but 
2-3 years -not gonna take a 100 to see how ridiculous the 'science-based' lock down and subsequent restrictions were.

No country has ever locked down due to a pandemic. Europe locked down ( and using the definition of insane, is gonna do it again)
1st 2 weeks were to relieve the hospital overload - which never happened - then they( gov and 'science') moved the goal posts - and continue to do that. 

Melbourne AS just came off of 111 days of severe lock down - devastated the economy (ya THINK?)

masks are not needed, then good, then they are no good, herd, then no, Sweden, then Cuomo says every death is on Trumps hands ( after he begged for vents, hospitals and the like - got them all in record time) 

death rate in US lowest week since March 22nd - 1st week we started. Client today , Dad had and recovered from Covid, passed due to stroke - marked Covid ( of course)

Gov. people (CDC) are no different than any other people - subject to mistakes, bribery, following orders of senior leadership regardless of their own conscience- maybe feeding family is main concern- or worse- pride.

Just go do what you can and want, respect the choices of others, but don't restrict others freedoms because you believe one source and some don't know what to believe, other than 99.97% chance of recovery if we get it.

I'm not going to any rallies - masks or not - but skiing/skinning/riding in open air with a few strangers? Hell yeah, I'll take that chance. 
C'MON MAAAAN!


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2020)

Los said:


> So,* smartly,** MRG knows that while many of us parents are willing to skirt the insane and irrational quarantining rules - there's no way in hell we're going to put our kids in a position of having to lie.* So, that's it. Game's over. (I'm not criticizing MRG in any way, I'm just pointing out that *they've figured out a very effective way of keeping day tripping kids from "bad" counties out of their kids programs...). *



Smart?  I think that's flipping horrible.   And using world history as a guide, I'm uncomfortable with it, and in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, _"that's all I'm uh gonn' say bout' that"._   If you know, you know.


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## zoomzoom (Oct 30, 2020)

hey, mr dog.  
can you provide a link to your claim of: "death rate in US lowest week since March 22nd"

your alternate facts are certainly confusitating.  here, look at this ( under where it shows 233,990 dead).    this is not a political statement, but an educational tool  
https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en


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## zoomzoom (Oct 30, 2020)

hey, mr dog.  
can you provide a link to your claim of: "death rate in US lowest week since March 22nd"

your alternate facts are certainly confusitating.  here, look at this ( under where it shows 233,990 dead).    this is not a political statement, but an educational tool  
https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 30, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> *your alternate facts* are certainly confusitating.



You probably shouldn't be criticizing him about_ "alternate facts"_, Mr. "currently _there is no vaccine candidate past Phase I_", and Mr. we cant be close to a safe vaccine yet guy.


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## ss20 (Oct 30, 2020)

Y'all have been making your points damn clear as mud for the past 7.5 months... is it enough yet?  No one is gonna change what "side" they're on over some posters on a ski forum.  

It snowed 5" at Killington, btw.


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## zoomzoom (Oct 31, 2020)

i humbly sit corrected BG, and apologize here.  with some digging i've some found that the OWS has selected three vaccines to be funded for phase three trials here in the US.  am reading that phase three trials last from 1 to 3 years.  following approval, a vaccine may enter phase 4, with patients being monitored for long term side-effects. other vaccines under the WHO umbrella are further along also.  
https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker
https://www.antidote.me/blog/how-long-do-clinical-trial-phases-take


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## Los (Oct 31, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Smart?  I think that's flipping horrible.   And using world history as a guide, I'm uncomfortable with it, and in the immortal words of Forrest Gump, _"that's all I'm uh gonn' say bout' that"._   If you know, you know.



I probably should have said “sneaky” instead of “smart”. And you’re right, it is horrible now that I think about it.


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## kingslug (Oct 31, 2020)

Well at least its snowing somewhere. Check out the mass exodus in France.World has gone cookoo


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## abc (Oct 31, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> https://www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker
> https://www.antidote.me/blog/how-long-do-clinical-trial-phases-take


They say “you are what you eat”... oops! What you READ!

Or rather, WHO you read... 

One’s choice of information source tells a lot about him

Of course, there’s also HOW to read. Though selectively reading only information one expects is quite a common practice


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## gittist (Oct 31, 2020)

Let's look at numbers. The following is from the CDC website as of Oct 30 at 12:16 PM.  

228,100 deaths divided by 8,924,548 known cases = 2.6% death rate.

Are these numbers accurate, as in within 10%?  Probably not, and I doubt anyone has accurate numbers. But the above is probably no better or worse than anyone else's.

The death number probably includes people who fell off of ladders or died in a car accident but yet had COVID in their system so they count as a COVID death. That's not right and it only adds to the hysteria.

The biggest issue is the number of cases. I've seen numbers that say the number of cases is 6 times higher than what is reported (CDC study), to as much as 20 times higher (W.H.O.). So the adjusted death rates are as follows:

 6 times:  228,100 /(6*8,924,548 ) = 0.43% or .0043 [Approximately 4 people of every thousand will die]

20 times:  228,100/(20* 8,924,548 ) = 0.13% or .0013

What's the actual number?  Probably somewhere in between but it's certainly less than 2.6%.  Is it worth what we've we've been dealing with, or will deal with by trying to go skiing?


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## 1dog (Oct 31, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> hey, mr dog.
> can you provide a link to your claim of: "death rate in US lowest week since March 22nd"
> 
> your alternate facts are certainly confusitating.  here, look at this ( under where it shows 233,990 dead).    this is not a political statement, but an educational tool
> https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/en



Oompa,

According to this, I'm a little off-  but still, point remains - its low.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/...hart&time=2020-03-07..2020-08-20&country=~USA

Then, take the 816 and remove 94% ( that pass away due to comorbidity ) and you end up with 49 poor souls that pass away due to China virus. 

Wish it on no one, but if we're healthy or, free, willing to take the chance, as Moses said ' Let my people ski'

the 30% increase in suicide is only one of many unintended consequences of lock downs.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/micae...abovebase-suicides-than-covid-deaths-n2573278

We shall not grow wiser before we learn that much that we have done was very foolish.
—F. A. Hayek


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## fbrissette (Oct 31, 2020)

1dog said:


> Oompa,
> 
> According to this, I'm a little off-  but still, point remains - its low.
> 
> ...



Research data from many countries on excess death rate (scientific paper, not crap misreported by most news sources, from the left and right) indicate that COVID-19 related deaths are UNDER REPORTED.   

One example of many:  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2768086

_[FONT=&quot]'Between March 1, 2020, and April 25, 2020, a total of 505 059 deaths were reported in the US; 87 001 (95% CI, 86 578-87 423) were excess deaths, of which 56 246 (65%) were attributed to COVID-19'[/FONT]_


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## Edd (Oct 31, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Research data from many countries on excess death rate (scientific paper, not crap misreported by most news sources, from the left and right) indicate that COVID-19 related deaths are UNDER REPORTED.
> 
> One example of many:  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2768086
> 
> _[FONT=&quot]'Between March 1, 2020, and April 25, 2020, a total of 505 059 deaths were reported in the US; 87 001 (95% CI, 86 578-87 423) were excess deaths, of which 56 246 (65%) were attributed to COVID-19'[/FONT]_



Probably not gonna sway someone using the term “China virus”.


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## 1dog (Oct 31, 2020)

Avian, Ebola, MERS, Spanish,Hong Kong, etc. 

Point taken though on totals. We may never know. As you point out FB, there a lot of sources out there on both sides that aren't all vetted. 

two quotes that fit ( one real - I think?)

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine." ~Abraham Lincoln 

to learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize
Voltaire


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## djd66 (Oct 31, 2020)

Another way to look at it:

In 2020, 22,000 people died from the flu.  That makes Covid 10X more deadly than the flu. 

Almost 100,000 people were diagnosed yesterday. Some may believe this virus is over-rated, it’s not.


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## mbedle (Oct 31, 2020)

1dog said:


> Avian, Ebola, MERS, Spanish,Hong Kong, etc.
> 
> Point taken though on totals. We may never know. As you point out FB, there a lot of sources out there on both sides that aren't all vetted.
> 
> ...



Both wrong, with one being funny and the other from a piece of white trash named Strom.


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## djd66 (Oct 31, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Both wrong, with one being funny and the other from a piece of white trash named Strom.



Yes, Strom- Holocaust denier, Child Porn watcher,... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Alfred_Strom


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> *COVID-19 related deaths are UNDER REPORTED.   *



On a global level?  Yes, that is virtually 100% certain to be correct.

In America?  I very much doubt it.  In fact, I believe the statistical bias in America is that we're likely over-counting COVID19-caused deaths.


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## EPB (Nov 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> In America?  I very much doubt it.  In fact, I believe the statistical bias in America is that we're likely over-counting COVID19-caused deaths.


 Sounds like you're a bitter clinger, deplorable, science denier who gets easily duped by Russian disinformation!

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 1, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *Sounds like you're a bitter clinger, deplorable, science denier who gets easily duped by Russian disinformation!*



That probably is the case.

Alternatively, it's the fact I've worked my entire career at the  intersection of healthcare, finance, and statistics, which of course means nothing.  I'm actually getting used to being told I'm wrong by people with not a scintilla of healthcare knowledge. 

  Healthcare & finance are the 2 things that everyone believes they are an "expert" in.  Nobody tells their pilot, _"umm, you know, I REALLY think you should adjust your aileron trim"_ or tells their plummer when or how to adjust their pipes, but everyone is an expert regarding healthcare and their retirement funds. C'est la vie.


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## mbedle (Nov 1, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Sounds like you're a bitter clinger, deplorable, science denier who gets easily duped by Russian disinformation!
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



lol


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## mbedle (Nov 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> On a global level?  Yes, that is virtually 100% certain to be correct.
> 
> In America?  I very much doubt it.  In fact, I believe the statistical bias in America is that we're likely over-counting COVID19-caused deaths.



Any thoughts on this?

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm


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## fbrissette (Nov 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You probably shouldn't be criticizing him about_ "alternate facts"_, Mr. "currently _there is no vaccine candidate past Phase I_", and Mr. we cant be close to a safe vaccine yet guy.





BenedictGomez said:


> On a global level?  Yes, that is virtually 100% certain to be correct.
> 
> In America?  I very much doubt it.  In fact, I believe the statistical bias in America is that we're likely over-counting COVID19-caused deaths.


There's lot of data on excess death now which shows you are wrong.


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## fbrissette (Nov 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Healthcare & finance are the 2 things that everyone believes they are an "expert" in.  Nobody tells their pilot, _"umm, you know, I REALLY think you should adjust your aileron trim"_ or tells their plummer when or how to adjust their pipes, but everyone is an expert regarding healthcare and their retirement funds. C'est la vie.



That's funny, I've said the exact same thing about climate science for the past 20 years.


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## hub8 (Nov 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That probably is the case.
> 
> Alternatively, it's the fact I've worked my entire career at the  intersection of healthcare, finance, and statistics, which of course means nothing.  I'm actually getting used to being told I'm wrong by people with not a scintilla of healthcare knowledge.
> 
> Healthcare & finance are the 2 things that everyone believes they are an "expert" in.  Nobody tells their pilot, _"umm, you know, I REALLY think you should adjust your aileron trim"_ or tells their plummer when or how to adjust their pipes, but everyone is an expert regarding healthcare and their retirement funds. C'est la vie.


[emoji106][emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G935U using Tapatalk


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## Edd (Nov 1, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> That's funny, I've said the exact same thing about climate science for the past 20 years.



[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mister moose (Nov 1, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Healthcare & finance are the 2 things that everyone believes they are an "expert" in.  Nobody tells their pilot, _"umm, you know, I REALLY think you should adjust your aileron trim"_ or tells their plummer when or how to adjust their pipes, but everyone is an expert regarding healthcare and their retirement funds. C'est la vie.





fbrissette said:


> That's funny, I've said the exact same thing about climate science for the past 20 years.



There's a difference.


There are expert plumbers that can positively identify the source of a leak and fix it, or an expert financial planner that can spreadsheet the tax consequences of different investments, or an expert doctor that can replace your knee joint.  Each of these knows the source of the problem, has a complete understanding of the process, and can predict the outcome accurately.  The same cannot be said in climate science.  The forecasts for 2020 did not come true.

Everyone might think they have varying degrees of knowledge in climate science, but there are no experts in the field yet.  We don't know all the sources definitively; we don't understand the process completely. There is no one that has proven the ability to formulate a predicted outcome on a repeated basis.  There are no experts in climate science, there are only educated opinions.


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## fbrissette (Nov 1, 2020)

mister moose said:


> There's a difference.
> 
> 
> There are expert plumbers that can positively identify the source of a leak and fix it, or an expert financial planner that can spreadsheet the tax consequences of different investments, or an expert doctor that can replace your knee joint.  Each of these knows the source of the problem, has a complete understanding of the process, and can predict the outcome accurately.  The same cannot be said in climate science.  The forecasts for 2020 did not come true.
> ...



There are no differences.  You are the perfect example of the problem.  You are just an uneducated Joe (in climate science) who is just displaying his ignorance on a ski forum.   

_The forecasts for 2020 did not come true 
_WTF are you talking about ????   Just the fact that you mention 'forecast' with respect to climate testifies to your ignorance of this field.

_There are no experts in climate science_
??????  Climatology has always been part of the curriculum of all Atmospheric Science degrees since just about the beginning of all of those programs.   Advanced degrees (MSC and PhD) in Climatology are offered in most major universities.  The climate has been studied (in the written record) since at least several centuries before BC.   Our understanding of greenhouse gases and their role in regulating the climate dates back to the early 1800s.  The are several Scientific journals devoted to Climate Science.  e,g, Journal of Climate, Climate Dynamics, Climate Research, International Journal of Climatology, Theoretical and Applied Climatology, Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, and I am purposely not mentioning many of the Journals dealing specifically with climate change.  We are talking tens of thousands of scientific articles published in the past decades.

Saying that there are no experts in Climate Science is as idiotic as saying the earth is flat.

Read the fricking actual science or shut up.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 1, 2020)

Best part of ski resort response to COVID-19? 

You get to ride lifts solo if you choose to do so. So I won't be in danger of discussing any of this bullshit while I'm skiing.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 1, 2020)

mister moose said:


> There's a difference.
> 
> 
> There are expert plumbers that can positively identify the source of a leak and fix it, or an expert financial planner that can spreadsheet the tax consequences of different investments, or an expert doctor that can replace your knee joint.  Each of these knows the source of the problem, has a complete understanding of the process, and can predict the outcome accurately.  The same cannot be said in climate science.  The forecasts for 2020 did not come true.
> ...



Well put. And plenty of uneducated ones too.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 1, 2020)

Covid to climate - well, like Californians say ' I don't know whether to go to the beach or lunch - its a real problem because they BOTH end with 'ch'.

Single chair JimG!  
Or how about agreeing if we get to ski this winter we should be grateful and shut up.  Understand the passion though . . .


----------



## kingslug (Nov 1, 2020)

Well you know when we're on the same hill..I'm not talking much..too busy skiing.


----------



## mister moose (Nov 1, 2020)

mister moose said:


> There's a difference.
> 
> There are expert plumbers that can positively identify the source of a leak and fix it, or an expert financial planner that can spreadsheet the tax consequences of different investments, or an expert doctor that can replace your knee joint. Each of these knows the source of the problem, has a complete understanding of the process, and can predict the outcome accurately. The same cannot be said in climate science. The forecasts for 2020 did not come true.
> 
> Everyone might think they have varying degrees of knowledge in climate science, but there are no experts in the field yet. We don't know all the sources definitively; we don't understand the process completely. There is no one that has proven the ability to formulate a predicted outcome on a repeated basis. There are no experts in climate science, there are only educated opinions.





fbrissette said:


> There are no differences.  You are the perfect example of the problem.  You are just an uneducated Joe (in climate science) who is just displaying his ignorance on a ski forum.


Yes, I'm an uneducated Joe in Climate Science.  That doesn't mean I'm either a part of the problem (which you haven't identified) or that I cannot be an observer of the performance record in the field.



fbrissette said:


> _The forecasts for 2020 did not come true
> _WTF are you talking about ????   Just the fact that you mention 'forecast' with respect to climate testifies to your ignorance of this field.


This is the equivalent of saying that because I use the term cable instead of wire rope, I cannot comment on chairlifts.  I am not worthy to address you.

Here's a forecast <cough> prediction that was made by climate science that was way off.  There are still 25 active glaciers in Glacier National Park.



Climate science has been inaccurate on sea temperature increase, polar ice mass, and more.  The record is not one of accuracy.




fbrissette said:


> _There are no experts in climate science_
> ??????  Climatology has always been part of the curriculum of all Atmospheric Science degrees since just about the beginning of all of those programs.   Advanced degrees (MSC and PhD) in Climatology are offered in most major universities.  The climate has been studied (in the written record) since at least several centuries before BC.   Our understanding of greenhouse gases and their role in regulating the climate dates back to the early 1800s.  The are several Scientific journals devoted to Climate Science.  e,g, Journal of Climate, Climate Dynamics, Climate Research, International Journal of Climatology, Theoretical and Applied Climatology, Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, and I am purposely not mentioning many of the Journals dealing specifically with climate change.  We are talking tens of thousands of scientific articles published in the past decades.
> 
> Saying that there are no experts in Climate Science is as idiotic as saying the earth is flat.
> ...



Aside from having a tantrum on the internet, you apparently completely missed my description of the term "expert".  You are proclaiming that an expert is the result of study, fancy titles and degrees.  My point is that all those titles and degrees and thousands of articles do not of themselves grant you the ability to pronounce upon the pubic what is or is not a correct model on the future.  You need to be correct, not just degreed and published.  How is this lost on someone as educated as yourself?

   I said 





> Each of these knows the source of the problem, has a complete understanding of the process, and can predict the outcome accurately. The same cannot be said in climate science.



Can you (or anyone) quantitatively state all the sources of climate change?
Can you (or anyone) state the complete process of how each factor interacts?
Can you (or anyone) predict (see, I used the word predict in my prior post) with repeatable accuracy future events on the basis of your current level of understanding?

If you can answer all 3 of those questions with a yes, then I will agree that you or whoever can is an expert.  If the answer is no, then I would call you an educated specialist.


----------



## zoomzoom (Nov 1, 2020)

i think i have it now.  according to my source previously referenced, there are currently 235,347 deaths attributed to covid-19 .  that number should be reduced by 94% so that the death is due purely to covid.  this results in an actual number of covid deaths to date at around 14,000.  for comparison, that's roughly how many folks die from the regular flu give or take a few thousand.  so no big deal, and thx for that point of view.


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## spiderpig (Nov 1, 2020)

Seems like this is no longer about ski resort response


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## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2020)

Scope creep


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## icecoast1 (Nov 1, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Best part of ski resort response to COVID-19?
> 
> You get to ride lifts solo if you choose to do so. So I won't be in danger of discussing any of this bullshit while I'm skiing.




You wont have to worry about talking about it while riding the lift, but you'll have plenty of time to argue about it in the lift line


----------



## machski (Nov 1, 2020)

Maine has begun to increase restrictions again.  Back down to 25% restaurant capacity or 50 people in rooms at one time (lesser amount), no bars open.  NY/NJ/CT residents are back to 14 day Quarantine requirements.  MA has been spared being put on that list so far.

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## JimG. (Nov 1, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> You wont have to worry about talking about it while riding the lift, but you'll have plenty of time to argue about it in the lift line



Lift lines will be interesting this season.


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## drjeff (Nov 1, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Lift lines will be interesting this season.


Guessing many a GM took notice to the lines on opening day at Mt Saint-Sauvier in Quebec yesterday.... Guessing some, who's resorts as of now are going without reservations for this season, may be rethinking that choice today...

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## fbrissette (Nov 1, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Yes, I'm an uneducated Joe in Climate Science.  That doesn't mean I'm either a part of the problem (which you haven't identified) or that I cannot be an observer of the performance record in the field.



To be an observer of the performance record in the field, you need to first read the science, and not its deformed/misleading/fraudulent interpretation by the right and the left (yes it goes both ways).  And clearly, you have not read the science.  Problem is you need to be educated to do so.



mister moose said:


> This is the equivalent of saying that because I use the term cable instead of wire rope, I cannot comment on chairlifts.  I am not worthy to address you.


You need to be educated to really understand why 'climate forecast' is somewhat of an oxymoron. 



mister moose said:


> Here's a forecast <cough> prediction that was made by climate science that was way off.  There are still 25 active glaciers in Glacier National Park.
> 
> View attachment 27126



A National Park sign ????  Go find me a scientific paper that said Glaciers will be all gone by 2020.   Just because an 'Al Gore' type idiot made the National Park Service put up a sign like this does not invalidate a whole scientific field.



mister moose said:


> Climate science has been inaccurate on sea temperature increase, polar ice mass, and more.  The record is not one of accuracy.



Sea temperature is extremely difficult to measure.  Before the Argo buoy program we pretty much only had surface temperature.  Now that we have sea temperature profiles, modeled and observed sea temperature track quite nicely, and definitely within the uncertainty bounds of both estimates.  There is no such thing as polar ice mass. 




mister moose said:


> Can you (or anyone) quantitatively state all the sources of climate change?


Emphatic yes.  The sources of climate change have been know for decades (all of them).



mister moose said:


> Can you (or anyone) state the complete process of how each factor interacts?


Yes and no.  Most of the major interactions and feedback are known but the amplitude of many of the feedbacks remains uncertain.  This is however a burden of proof that cannot be met by all scientific fields.   It's like asking a cancer researcher to state the complete process of how each factor interacts.

QUOTE=mister moose;1051970]
Can you (or anyone) predict (see, I used the word predict in my prior post) with repeatable accuracy future events on the basis of your current level of understanding?
[/QUOTE]

You're asking scientists to predict the future and nobody can do that.   The best climate scientists can do, is to provide projections of the future climate based on a series of hypothesis (e.g. future GHG emissions), and to provide uncertainty bounds of those estimates.  The great thing with science is that you can go back in time and check it (not the interpretation of politicians and interest groups, the science).  If you do so, you will find that climate projections have been very good at the global scale.


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## Andrew B. (Nov 2, 2020)

I remember the climate scientist telling us to beware of a coming ice age back in the 70’s
I even did a project on it in middle school. Teacher was pleased that I agreed with the science.


----------



## urungus (Nov 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Guessing many a GM took notice to the lines on opening day at Mt Saint-Sauvier in Quebec yesterday.... Guessing some, who's resorts as of now are going without reservations for this season, may be rethinking that choice today...



Any pictures of this ?  Doesn’t seem to be anything on google news


----------



## NYDB (Nov 2, 2020)




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## fbrissette (Nov 2, 2020)

urungus said:


> Any pictures of this ?  Doesn’t seem to be anything on google news



Can't find anything on the local sites, and did not see anything in the news.   They opened on a single run (600 feet vertical), and typically the crowds are small, mostly teenagers and young adults.  I doubt the lift line was crazy.   But who knows, these are weird times.

Ski equipment is flying off the shelves right now, just like bicycles were the spring.  Some popular skis in popular lengths are already gone and cannot be found anywhere in Canada, with nothing left in the warehouses.

EDIT: holy cow, just saw NY dirtbag pic.  I stand corrected.  Wow.


----------



## abc (Nov 2, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Can't find anything on the local sites, and did not see anything in the news.   They opened on a single run (600 feet vertical), and typically the crowds are small, mostly teenagers and young adults.  I doubt the lift line was crazy.   But who knows, these are weird times.
> 
> Ski equipment is flying off the shelves right now, just like bicycles were the spring.  Some popular skis in popular lengths are already gone and cannot be found anywhere in Canada, with nothing left in the warehouses.
> 
> EDIT: holy cow, just saw NY dirtbag pic.  I stand corrected.  Wow.


Well, that would be consistent with "ski equipment flying off the shelves" then.


----------



## dlague (Nov 2, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Another way to look at it:
> 
> In 2020, 22,000 people died from the flu.  That makes Covid 10X more deadly than the flu.
> 
> Almost 100,000 people were diagnosed yesterday. Some may believe this virus is over-rated, it’s not.



Did you notice that the flu deaths stopped in January?  Even the CDC estimates that flu deaths range in the 24 to 60 thousand range but it is not clear as many cases many have been counted as COVID-19.


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## slatham (Nov 2, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> View attachment 27127



Hence why many areas are starting with pass holders only, or opening more terrain than usual on day 1, or both. I am sure the areas that open later will be taking note of how things go at the early openers. But the first data point - this pic - is not encouraging for the uncontrolled open.


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## cdskier (Nov 2, 2020)

slatham said:


> Hence why many areas are starting with pass holders only, or opening more terrain than usual on day 1, or both. I am sure the areas that open later will be taking note of how things go at the early openers. But the first data point - this pic - is not encouraging for the uncontrolled open.



What's your definition of "uncontrolled open"? MSS was passholders only when they opened this weekend and still had an issue, so this restriction alone may not be enough. Either resorts are going to have to open with multiple pods or they're going to have to do reservations even for passholders potentially if they want to avoid this type of scene.


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## mikec142 (Nov 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> On a global level?  Yes, that is virtually 100% certain to be correct.
> 
> In America?  I very much doubt it.  In fact, I believe the statistical bias in America is that we're likely over-counting COVID19-caused deaths.



I agree that global numbers of infections and deaths are being widely under reported.  How can we trust numbers coming out of certain countries?

But I also think that infection numbers are widely under reported (for political reasons) domestically.  Its been widely reported that Florida and Texas (among others) aren't reporting numbers accurately.  If it's true that infection numbers aren't being reported accurately, it stands to reason that the same folks aren't reporting death numbers accurately either (for the same reasons).


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## mikec142 (Nov 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think sales of these are going to break all-time records & possibly even sell-out & not be available.
> 
> Unfortunately I have not been able to find a way to play it via equity as I did with WGO.



My wife read an article in June that talked about restaurants dealing with outdoor dining scenarios in the colder weather.  She immediately bought two of these outdoor heaters for $150 each.  We mentioned it to local friends who also bought.  Since July these types of heaters have been very, very hard to come by.  I've seen the same ones we bought being sold on Amazon from third parties for double to triple the price.  I will say, here in NJ they've made a huge difference.  It's made it much easier for my parents and in-laws to come over and spend time with their grandkids.  The best part is when we aren't using the backyard, my parents will set up the heaters and patio furniture about 10 feet apart and invite another couple to come over and socialize.  Keeps everyone from going a bit stir crazy.


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> What's your definition of "uncontrolled open"? MSS was passholders only when they opened this weekend and still had an issue, so this restriction alone may not be enough. Either resorts are going to have to open with multiple pods or they're going to have to do reservations even for passholders potentially if they want to avoid this type of scene.



My hunch is that this picture, especially until you get say a dozen or so resorts open, to help spread people out over numerous resorts, will have many GM's who don't currently have a reservation system in place from Day #1, rethinking that, and for those resorts that are planning on a reservation system, they may be rethinking how many reservations they'll be allowing for early season, limited lifts and terrain pods, skiing/riding.

Guess I'll find out how limited or plentiful EPIC's reservation system if for Mount Snow later this week when the window for the weather permitting opening day is in play...


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## fbrissette (Nov 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> What's your definition of "uncontrolled open"? MSS was passholders only when they opened this weekend and still had an issue, so this restriction alone may not be enough. Either resorts are going to have to open with multiple pods or they're going to have to do reservations even for passholders potentially if they want to avoid this type of scene.



Too early to draw conclusions.  Saturday was a 4-hour duration day (12h00-16h00) under a perfect blue sky (one run, one lift).


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## 1dog (Nov 2, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Research data from many countries on excess death rate (scientific paper, not crap misreported by most news sources, from the left and right) indicate that COVID-19 related deaths are UNDER REPORTED.
> 
> One example of many:  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2768086
> 
> _[FONT="]'Between March 1, 2020, and April 25, 2020, a total of 505 059 deaths were reported in the US; 87 001 (95% CI, 86 578-87 423) were excess deaths, of which 56 246 (65%) were attributed to COVID-19'[/FONT]_




Scroll to bottom of article to see CDC weekly deaths - lowest since March. 


https://justthenews.com/politics-po...ing-sites-indicate-rise-deaths-cdc-data-shows

reasonable explanation of statistical issues with marked deaths too.


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## fbrissette (Nov 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> Scroll to bottom of article to see CDC weekly deaths - lowest since March.
> 
> 
> https://justthenews.com/politics-po...ing-sites-indicate-rise-deaths-cdc-data-shows
> ...



You have to be careful in the evaluation of the last few weeks of data. As mentioned on the CDC site:

_[FONT=&quot]*Data during this period are incomplete because of the lag in time between when the death occurred and when the death certificate is completed, submitted to NCHS and processed for reporting purposes. This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death.

[/FONT]_
Interpreting this graph as showing deaths currently going to 0 (as Junior did on twitter) is wrong, and misinformed (and dumb).  Wait till the end of November for reliable October stats.


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## slatham (Nov 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> What's your definition of "uncontrolled open"? MSS was passholders only when they opened this weekend and still had an issue, so this restriction alone may not be enough. Either resorts are going to have to open with multiple pods or they're going to have to do reservations even for passholders potentially if they want to avoid this type of scene.



MSS is an example of an uncontrolled opening: only game in town, one trail/lift, no reservations. Most of the pre-Thanksgiving openers in VT for instance are requiring reservations of some sort. And all plan on having much more than 1 trial and 1 lift.


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## kingslug (Nov 2, 2020)

Wonder if Stowe will utilize the double more. If not then all you have is the quad and triple and Gondola. I wouldn't mind riding the double although its a hell of a long ride  but it gets you up there.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 2, 2020)

dlague said:


> Did you notice that the flu deaths stopped in January?  Even the CDC estimates that flu deaths range in the 24 to 60 thousand range but it is not clear as many cases many have been counted as COVID-19.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Anyone read the news article from Jack Nicklaus.  I now Jack is not an expert on coronavirus but he is a well respected figure in the golf community.  Here is his quote:

“I don’t think the deaths are a correct number,” he said Friday. “I hate to say that.”
Nicklaus told a story about two people he knows whose parents died from something other than COVID and, according to Nicklaus, they were asked if the cause of death could be changed to COVID and declined.
“The hospital gets more money with COVID death than they do another death,” Nicklaus said. “I’m sure there’s been a lot of that.”


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 2, 2020)

I always ride the double when its running and there's a stupid line at the FourRunner.  Takes me everywhere I want/need to go.

Its nice to enjoy the scendary too on the way up.  Last year when I was on it there was a child/teen "extreme" contest on Lookout.  Fun to watch for sure!


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## kingslug (Nov 2, 2020)

And its the only way to check out Lookout before dropping in. A crazy run for sure.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Anyone read the news article from Jack Nicklaus.  I now Jack is not an expert on coronavirus but he is a well respected figure in the golf community.  Here is his quote:
> 
> “I don’t think the deaths are a correct number,” he said Friday. “I hate to say that.”
> Nicklaus told a story about two people he knows whose parents died from something other than COVID and, according to Nicklaus, they were asked if the cause of death could be changed to COVID and declined.
> “The hospital gets more money with COVID death than they do another death,” Nicklaus said. “I’m sure there’s been a lot of that.”




It's tough to know what he's referring to for sure, but I think what he's speaking of is Medicare patients, where you get an additional 20% bump up in payment for COVID.  Though they dont have to die, they just need to have it.


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's tough to know what he's referring to for sure, but I think what he's speaking of is Medicare patients, where you get an additional 20% bump up in payment for COVID.  Though they dont have to die, they just need to have it.



I believe that it was one bump in reimbursement for a COVID diagnosis, and then a second, even greater bump in reimbursement if the patient ended up being intubated during treatment. And I believe that this was written into the 1st round of the CARES Act that was passed


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I believe that it was one bump in reimbursement for a COVID diagnosis, and then a second, even greater bump in reimbursement if the patient ended up being intubated during treatment. And I believe that this was written into the 1st round of the CARES Act that was passed


Maybe true, but there isn't a hospital CFO in the country smiling about Covid reimbursement checks.   All of them have lost their freaking shirts, shorts, socks and underwear from this and have been left wearing a set of nipple pasties to keep warm on a sub zero day.  It's been an absolute fiscal disaster.  Partners (now Mass General Brigham) is the largest employer in New England and wealthiest healthcare company.  They are on track to lose $2B this year.  Beth Israel Lahey, #2 in terms of revenue, lost $300M+ in April alone.  

They all want this pandemic over and would gladly not receive a single Covid patient again. 

But politicizing the body count has been our language whether over counting or under since the beginning.  Media outlets will push their particular count based upon who they want in office.  That's really all there is too it and both sides are guilty of it 

So, here we are....

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## Andrew B. (Nov 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe true, but there isn't a hospital CFO in the country smiling about Covid reimbursement checks.   All of them have lost their freaking shirts, shorts, socks and underwear from this and have been left wearing a set of nipple pasties to keep warm on a sub zero day.  It's been an absolute fiscal disaster.  Partners (now Mass General Brigham) is the largest employer in New England and wealthiest healthcare company.  They are on track to lose $2B this year.  Beth Israel Lahey, #2 in terms of revenue, lost $300M+ in April alone.
> 
> They all want this pandemic over and would gladly not receive a single Covid patient again.
> 
> ...



After losing their shirts they would have no reason to try and increase reimbursement?
Seems contradictory to human nature.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2020)

No

Meaning they'd give anything to be 100% back to normal and not dealing with Covid patients.  Even with the extra reimbursement, it has been far from a profitable endeavor.  

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## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> No
> 
> Meaning they'd give anything to be 100% back to normal and not dealing with Covid patients.  Even with the extra reimbursement, it has been far from a profitable endeavor.
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app



Which is good evidence that they are incentivized to maximize their revenues wherever able.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2020)

So in the case of Dr Jeff's example, put patients on vents because they can bill more?  Covid or not, vents are a last resort.  When not needed, that's essentially malpractice. You're a lawyer. You probably know the potential payouts for a malpractice suit.  How many doctors are going to risk their license for that?

How many doctors have we heard about stating they've been instructed by hospital administration to make inaccurate COD notifications to reflect Covid?  You know, essentially commit fraud?

Fact is COD notifications have always been far from perfect.  Almost everyone dies from co-morbidities. 

This idea that there's some massive conspiracy going on is just ridiculous





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## 1dog (Nov 2, 2020)

Just like any other business, they are trying to make ends meet. These points are all valid. Human nature, the nature of capitalism, and the  need to do the right things are all in the mix, blurred, and what comes out is as DH puts it so well ' So, here we are . '

MA just today announced curfews and early shut downs of restaurants, and even limiting liquor sales in stores to earlier hour than closing.

Do any of us have a handle on truth? Blurred.

The good thing about the internet is anyone can put out anything they want. The bad thing about it is exactly the same.


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## kingslug (Nov 2, 2020)

And now..we start going backwards....


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## mister moose (Nov 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> So in the case of Dr Jeff's example, put patients on vents because they can bill more?  Covid or not, vents are a last resort.  When not needed, that's essentially malpractice. You're a lawyer. You probably know the potential payouts for a malpractice suit.  How many doctors are going to risk their license for that?
> 
> How many doctors have we heard about stating they've been instructed by hospital administration to make inaccurate COD notifications to reflect Covid?  You know, essentially commit fraud?
> 
> ...



Disagree.  Not saying there is a conspiracy, that a bunch of hospital administrators got together and hatched a plan.  However, after a recent injury I was manipulated to answer certain questions in a certain way so I would qualify for insurance for certain procedures.  There is gaming of the system going on, and it dates back well before COVID.


----------



## Los (Nov 2, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> View attachment 27127



Yet more evidence that lift lines will be out of control this season due to unprecedented demand (except maybe at resorts that require reservations, I guess).


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 2, 2020)

That may be true, but your argument that they are hurting so they are LESS likely to fudge COVID stats just doesn’t make sense.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 2, 2020)

You're missing my point entirely



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## Edd (Nov 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> Do any of us have a handle on truth? Blurred.



Yes?


----------



## Andrew B. (Nov 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You're missing my point entirely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## 1dog (Nov 3, 2020)

*The Law of Subsidy*



mister moose said:


> Disagree.  Not saying there is a conspiracy, that a bunch of hospital administrators got together and hatched a plan.  However, after a recent injury I was manipulated to answer certain questions in a certain way so I would qualify for insurance for certain procedures.  There is gaming of the system going on, and it dates back well before COVID.



Interesting take with a little history :

https://noqreport.com/2020/10/30/covid-garbage-in-covid-garbage-out/


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> You're missing my point entirely
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app


No, I’m just saying that human nature is what it is.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2020)

And the miniscule amount of dishonesty that might be occurring is an absolute nothing burger in the grand scheme of things regarding number of deaths.  I'm sure it has happened, but no where near the levels that some people in media are trying to convince you to believe.  These opinions are put out there for political purposes. 

Hospitals throughout time have experienced massive fines for medicare and medicaid fraud. We are talking 9 figure penalties in some instances.  Where are those cases now?  Where are the whistle blowers?

I'm sure you could find a few legitimate ones, but not enough that would have a meaningful impact on the numbers.  I hope those who have done such things are brought to justice.  If they are in considerable numbers, I'll stand down on my opinions.



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## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> And the miniscule amount of dishonesty that might be occurring is an absolute nothing burger in the grand scheme of things regarding number of deaths.  I'm sure it has happened, but no where near the levels that some people in media are trying to convince you to believe.  These opinions are put out there for political purposes.
> 
> *Hospitals throughout time have experienced massive fines for medicare and medicaid fraud. We are talking 9 figure penalties in some instances.  Where are those cases now?  Where are the whistle blowers?*
> 
> I'm sure you could find a few legitimate ones, but not enough that would have a meaningful impact on the numbers.  I hope those who have done such things are brought to justice.  If they are in considerable numbers, I'll stand down on my opinions.



What you're not understanding is that it wouldn't be fraud.  It's a simple ICD coding for an actual COVID19 positive patient.  You're just doing a really, really, really, really, really good job looking for COVID19 cases.  Test as many people as you can.  I agree that this is likely overblown like you're saying, but I also think it's naive to think there aren't hospital admins out there thinking $$$ for every COVID19 patient, especially with all the asymptomatic patients out there.  There are hospitals which are literally testing every single patient who's admitted.  Is that really necessary if they have no COVID19 symptoms or are admitted for a broken leg?  I guess reasonable people can debate that & say it's the most conservative path to take, but the cynical side of me knows hospital admin brass aren't dumb & do anything legal in their power to maximize revenue.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> There are hospitals which are literally testing every single patient who's admitted.  Is that really necessary if they have no COVID19 symptoms or are admitted for a broken leg?  .



Evidence that all patients are being tested?

Mine is only anecdotal, but I spend a ton of time in EDs and that is not normal from my experience. Most have devoted about ten percent of their beds in EDs as potential Covid patient beds.  Those all get tested. The rest? No unless the patient demands it. 

As for the broken leg folks?  Yes, they and most all patients in need of surgery do so.  It's a precaution to keep the Anesthesiologists (especially) , the Surgeons and support staff from unknowingly being exposed.  

Hell my neighbor just tested positive prior to surgery.  His family has to quarantine for two weeks. My kids had recently played with their daughter outdoors one day prior to that test. We all got tested too because our daughter is in daycare and it's the responsible thing to do to prevent potential spread. That's the daycares policy and one I agree with.





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## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *Evidence that all patients are being tested?*



It's not uncommon. John's Hopkins is the first place that popped into my mind. Took a 20 second Google search.

_"Anyone admitted as an inpatient will receive a COVID-19 test."_

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/cor... and visitors entering,don't already have one.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Evidence that all patients are being tested?
> 
> Mine is only anecdotal, but I spend a ton of time in EDs and that is not normal from my experience. Most have devoted about ten percent of their beds in EDs as potential Covid patient beds.  Those all get tested. The rest? No unless the patient demands it.
> 
> ...




They arent even letting people in for routine procedures like a colonoscopy here in NY without a negative covid test first, let alone any kind of major surgery


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## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not uncommon. John's Hopkins is the first place that popped into my mind. Took a 20 second Google search.
> 
> _"Anyone admitted as an inpatient will receive a COVID-19 test."_
> 
> https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/cor... and visitors entering,don't already have one.


Misinterpreted your claim to include ED admissions not just inpatient admissions.  A very small percentage of ED patients end up getting admitted to MedSurg or ICU.  

I don't see a problem with all patients who are admitted to critical care floors receiving a test. Best to keep those folks in negative pressure rooms. 

I don't see massive testing as a problem in general.  Infection counts aren't a major metric I look at today, but were quite important in the spring.  Hospitalization rates and deaths are most important today in terms of how things are being managed.  Trends for both aren't great currently.  The death rate is very low and improving which is a good thing, but it's still a helluva lot of people in total.  

I also feel a big reason why there hasn't been far more deaths is due to early lockdown measures.  It allowed for learning such that the therapies  became more accurate and effective.   If there was no lockdown this spring and other major metros got hit like NYC? We'd probably be looking at a seven figure death count.  

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## spiderpig (Nov 3, 2020)

"1. Skiers will have to attest to compliance with the state's travel guidance. 2. Ski areas will collect contact tracing info for every guest on the mountain every day."

So if you ski at Wildcat one day and Stowe the next, Vail is gonna sic the covid police on you?

https://twitter.com/JaneLindholm/status/1323660292857995267


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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> There are hospitals which are literally testing every single patient who's admitted.  Is that really necessary if they have no COVID19 symptoms or are admitted for a broken leg?  I guess reasonable people can debate that & say it's the most conservative path to take, but the cynical side of me knows hospital admin brass aren't dumb & do anything legal in their power to maximize revenue.


Define "reasonable". 

When someone was admitted for a broken leg (which BTW usually doesn't require hospital stay) is an asymptomatic carrier, he can infect the doctors and nurses, which will turn around infect all the other patients they see. And unless that patient is in a private room, he can also infect the other patient staying in the same room too! 

With testing, anyone who's positive will be put into a different room for Covid positive patients only. They're not mixing with other patients who tested negative. 

Which is reasonable? Not knowing and mixing covid -positive patient with all the rest?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2020)

spiderpig said:


> "1. Skiers will have to attest to compliance with the state's travel guidance. 2.* Ski areas will collect contact tracing info for every guest on the mountain every day."*
> 
> So if you ski at Wildcat one day and Stowe the next, Vail is gonna sic the covid police on you?



I feel like that has to be written incorrectly somehow.   

Let's say there are 2,500 skiers at the hill on a given Saturday, Vermont cant actually expect Killington or Jay Peak to create compressive contact tracing lists for 2,500 people every day, right?

If so, my advice would be for the ski resorts to join together in a single lawsuit rather than each suing together. lol


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## spiderpig (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I feel like that has to be written incorrectly somehow.
> 
> Let's say there are 2,500 skiers at the hill on a given Saturday, Vermont cant actually expect Killington or Jay Peak to create compressive contact tracing lists for 2,500 people every day, right?
> 
> If so, my advice would be for the ski resorts to join together in a single lawsuit rather than each suing together. lol



Don't they have all the info they need from the reservation systems or ticket scans? But what good is contact tracing if you're not tracking who is in the lodge at the same time? Magic has the jump on table reservations there.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2020)

spiderpig said:


> Don't they have all the info they need from the reservation systems or ticket scans? But what good is contact tracing if you're not tracking who is in the lodge at the same time? Magic has the jump on table reservations there.



Well, not everyone has an RFID system or a reservation system, but ignoring that, I think the tweet must be wrongly written.  It just sounds wacky.

EDIT:   The reporter clarified it, it really is State of Vermont's intention.



> Q) Are you saying if XYZ Vermont ski resort has 3,000 skiers on a Friday, they need to create a comprehensive contact tracing list for all 3,000 skiers?





> A) Yes.


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well, not everyone has an RFID system or a reservation system, but ignoring that, I think the tweet must be wrongly written.  It just sounds wacky.



Straight from the horse's mouth: "Ski areas are going to be collecting and maintaining contact tracing information for every guest that's on the mountain every day to be able to give that information to the Department of Health in the event of a contact tracing need."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijs0qHg18g0


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2020)

spiderpig said:


> Straight from the horse's mouth: "Ski areas are going to be collecting and maintaining contact tracing information for every guest that's on the mountain every day to be able to give that information to the Department of Health in the event of a contact tracing need."



I figured it out.  They just misused the term "contact tracing", all the ski area needs to do is have the contact info for each skier, not literally create a preemptive spider web of each skier's recent contacts.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 3, 2020)

yes I agree with you BG.  That's how I read it.  so honestly that should be pretty easy.  If you have a pass or bought a ticket online, they have your info.  

no big deal...


----------



## flakeydog (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> What you're not understanding is that it wouldn't be fraud.  It's a simple ICD coding for an actual COVID19 positive patient.  You're just doing a really, really, really, really, really good job looking for COVID19 cases.  Test as many people as you can.  I agree that this is likely overblown like you're saying, but I also think it's naive to think there aren't hospital admins out there thinking $$$ for every COVID19 patient, especially with all the asymptomatic patients out there.  There are hospitals which are literally testing every single patient who's admitted.  Is that really necessary if they have no COVID19 symptoms or are admitted for a broken leg?  I guess reasonable people can debate that & say it's the most conservative path to take, but the cynical side of me knows hospital admin brass aren't dumb & do anything legal in their power to maximize revenue.



Two things- 

first off, yes, patients should be tested prior to being admitted.  Perhaps I am naïve to think this is for the safety of the staff and patients to stop the spread of a contagious virus in a contained environment.  I am sure the experts here will continue to weigh in that it is not.  Colleges are also testing "everyone", or at least some are.  They are doing it at great expense to themselves.  Why? because the up front cost to do this is worth the investment- it costs a lot more to send everyone home mid-semester.

Second, this conspiratorial increase in testing probably will not produce the results those bent on nefarious syphoning of government resources are hoping for. As the testing rate (as a function of the total population) increases, the expectation is that the positivity rate would decrease. All of that "unnecessary" testing is not going to pay off like you thought.

However, if the positivity rate increases or even stays flat as a greater percentage of the population is tested, it usually suggests that there is still community spread at or above the level of the group that required testing. I would submit that this is something we would want to know if we were interested in controlling and reducing the spread of the virus.


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## spiderpig (Nov 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I figured it out.  They just misused the term "contact tracing", all the ski area needs to do is have the contact info for each skier, not literally create a preemptive spider web of each skier's recent contacts.



I thought that was the only way it could be read.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 3, 2020)

Wow - in the entire northeast including Ohio, West Virginia and Virginia, there are only 331,252 people eligible to visit Vermont without quarantine... Not looking good for this winter.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 3, 2020)

And almost all of them live in rural Maine...


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## Zermatt (Nov 3, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Wow - in the entire northeast including Ohio, West Virginia and Virginia, there are only 331,252 people eligible to visit Vermont without quarantine... Not looking good for this winter.



Also, anyplace outside that map area is also not allowed.

Is the state of Vermont aware of the constitutional right to unrestricted interstate travel?  Where are all the f-ing lawyers when you need them?


----------



## NYDB (Nov 3, 2020)

Its looking good this winter if you can WFH in VT and/or if your kids have remote school.  You only have to quarantine once if you stay up there.  the only thing you have to worry about is everyone else ignoring the orders, cases spiking, and VT shutting down the lifts.

And anyway, I thought the prevailing view on AZ was 'VT can't keep me from Skiing weekends! I own a condo!  taxation without representation!' or something.  

I hope Biden wins so they can release the secret vaccine already.  :dunce:


----------



## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

I don't think resorts can actively go after people who appear in different states.  VT wants Joe Smith's name to go to their database if he skis in VT.  If Joe Smith had been skiing at Windham three days earlier I don't think the resorts have to report that info.  

Also I question the effectiveness of contact tracing if there are almost certainly millions of active, asymptomatic cases circulating around the country right now.


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## Zermatt (Nov 3, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Its looking good this winter if you can WFH in VT and/or if your kids have remote school.  You only have to quarantine once if you stay up there.  the only thing you have to worry about is everyone else ignoring the orders, cases spiking, and VT shutting down the lifts.
> 
> And anyway, I thought the prevailing view on AZ was 'VT can't keep me from Skiing weekends! I own a condo!  taxation without representation!' or something.
> 
> I hope Biden wins so they can release the secret vaccine already.  :dunce:



The ski areas can't even open if they expect 100% compliance and only VT based skiers.  Not even close.


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## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> And anyway, I thought the prevailing view on AZ was 'VT can't keep me from Skiing weekends! I own a condo!  taxation without representation!' or something.



That's only half of AZ.  The other half has returned their season passes, stocked up on skins and AT supplies, and isn't planning on riding a ski lift til at least 2025.


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## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

billo said:


> The ski areas can't even open if they expect 100% compliance and only VT based skiers.  Not even close.



No.  And they know it, and, IMO, are sort of encouraging people to break quarantine requirements.  

Killington has been extremely blunt....from the snow report..."The state of Vermont is currently restricting who can travel into the state and visit our resort as part of its Covid-19 response plan. Click the link below to visit the State of Vermont website to determine if you are eligible to travel to Vermont. Given the nature of the requirements, we are unable to verify if visitors to the resort meet the requirements but we urge you to do the right thing and not travel to Vermont and our resort if you don’t meet the requirements for the health and safety of our staff, community and fellow visitors."


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## mtl1076 (Nov 3, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yes I agree with you BG.  That's how I read it.  so honestly that should be pretty easy.  If you have a pass or bought a ticket online, they have your info.
> 
> no big deal...



Ski areas have to keep a list of who visited each day, both passholders and ticket holders.


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## NYDB (Nov 3, 2020)

billo said:


> The ski areas can't even open if they expect 100% compliance and only VT based skiers.  Not even close.



I think there are a lot of people who did or will move up there and remain for the duration.  Maybe not enough, but a lot

 A lot of former NJ/NY/MA/CT residents have new properties all over VT.  The summer was super busy.  I expect the winter to be the same.   

I expect midweek crowds to be much higher than normal.


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## kbroderick (Nov 3, 2020)

billo said:


> Also, anyplace outside that map area is also not allowed.
> 
> Is the state of Vermont aware of the constitutional right to unrestricted interstate travel?  Where are all the f-ing lawyers when you need them?



The right to travel, like most rights, is not absolute. Try riding a motorcycle from New Hampshire through to Jersey without a helmet or riding a horse on I-91 from Vermont into New Hampshire and see how that goes. Plus, the Vermont guidelines do not prohibit anyone from going to (or from) Vermont, but instead regulate a person's behavior in Vermont.

There may well be constitutional concerns with the Vermont (and New York and Maine and whichever other) travel/activity restrictions, particularly insofar as they may interfere with other constitutionally protected activities (such as practicing religion or organizing voters), but restriction on behavior associated with interstate travel is commonplace.


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## Zermatt (Nov 3, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> I think there are a lot of people who did or will move up there and remain for the duration.  Maybe not enough, but a lot
> 
> A lot of former NJ/NY/MA/CT residents have new properties all over VT.  The summer was super busy.  I expect the winter to be the same.
> 
> I expect midweek crowds to be much higher than normal.



Not even close to moving the needle.

The ski areas are reliant on 100% non-compliance with these rules.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> And the miniscule amount of dishonesty that might be occurring is an absolute nothing burger in the grand scheme of things regarding number of deaths.  I'm sure it has happened, but no where near the levels that some people in media are trying to convince you to believe.  These opinions are put out there for political purposes.
> 
> Hospitals throughout time have experienced massive fines for medicare and medicaid fraud. We are talking 9 figure penalties in some instances.  Where are those cases now?  Where are the whistle blowers?
> 
> ...



Whats the difference between hospital taking advantage of the system and Busineses who shouldn't have  qualified for the PPP but they got it anyway.  IE Harvard getting 30 million dollars
Both are taking advantage of the situation.


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## spiderpig (Nov 3, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> I think there are a lot of people who did or will move up there and remain for the duration.  Maybe not enough, but a lot
> 
> A lot of former NJ/NY/MA/CT residents have new properties all over VT.  The summer was super busy.  I expect the winter to be the same.
> 
> I expect midweek crowds to be much higher than normal.



or people were just breaking the quarantine rules then, too


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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Wow - in the entire northeast including Ohio, West Virginia and Virginia, there are only 331,252 people eligible to visit Vermont without quarantine... Not looking good for this winter.


Not looking good for whom? 

Doesn't look good for skiers outside of VT. Not looking good for the ski area. 

But if you live in VT, you can ski on an empty mountain. I'd say that may look very good!


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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

ss20 said:


> That's only half of AZ.  The other half has returned their season passes, stocked up on skins and AT supplies, and isn't planning on riding a ski lift til at least 2025.


LOL!

Guilty as charged. Was looking at skins and xc skis just yesterday.  

But I had always been interested in bc touring. I put tele binding on one of my cast-off alpine skis, but never actually took it off to the BC (nor yet fitted with skins even) And I had also took a clinic on skate skiing (xc) just last year. So this isn't a new thing for me. It just added a lot of fuel to my slowly simmering interest in skiing not involving lifts.


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## EPB (Nov 3, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> ..taxation without representation!' or something.



This, of course, is factually true. No need to think further. Not that I have any personal sympathy for people who can't vote in the place of their second residence. It seems to be totally reasonable policy to me.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## skiur (Nov 3, 2020)

abc said:


> Not looking good for whom?
> 
> Doesn't look good for skiers outside of VT. Not looking good for the ski area.
> 
> But if you live in VT, you can ski on an empty mountain. I'd say that may look very good!




You really think that if they dont have out of state skiers showing up that resorts are going to blow any snow, or run any lifts?  They would lose less money by closing.


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## EPB (Nov 3, 2020)

skiur said:


> You really think that if they dont have out of state skiers showing up that resorts are going to blow any snow, or run any lifts?  They would lose less money by closing.


Without insider info, it's impossible to know what the answer to the "to run, or not to run" question is. That said, I'd caution anyone cheering on quarantines that limit out of state visitors to be careful what they wish for both in terms of 2020/2021 operating budgets and increasing the likelihood that not all the VT ski areas make it though the season alive.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## spiderpig (Nov 3, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Without insider info, it's impossible to know what the answer to the "to run, or not to run" question is. That said, I'd caution anyone cheering on quarantines that limit out of state visitors to be careful what they wish for both in terms of 2020/2021 operating budgets and increasing the likelihood that not all the VT ski areas make it though the season alive.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



$timulu$


----------



## cdskier (Nov 3, 2020)

skiur said:


> You really think that if they dont have out of state skiers showing up that resorts are going to blow any snow, or run any lifts?  They would lose less money by closing.



Exactly...

The only way the mountains are empty is if travel restrictions are actually somehow enforced. And in that case they'll just end up closing as you said because it just isn't feasible to run most of your major mountains with local only traffic. If travel restrictions are not enforced, there's virtually no chance the mountains are empty.


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## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Without insider info, it's impossible to know what the answer to the "to run, or not to run" question is. That said, I'd caution anyone cheering on quarantines that limit out of state visitors to be careful what they wish for both in terms of 2020/2021 operating budgets and increasing the likelihood that not all the VT ski areas make it though the season alive.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



It wouldn't make sense for a resort to not open.  How many employees wouldn't return the next season?  How many season passholders would never return?  And you'd still be paying taxes on the land, and have buildings depreciate.  You're better off running a season in the red.  If there's anything positive about this industry, it's that these ski resorts can weather the storm and are used to having an occasional unprofitable season.  Most bounce back.  

For a small ski area for a season I can see it making some sense- less equipment and buildings to mothball for future use.  But a big resort with 15+ lifts, multiple resort-owned lodges, hotels, and condos, dozens and dozens of pieces of heavy machinery like groomers and shuttle busses, the investment of having a few key staff members preparing/keeping things mothballed probably would not be worth it for just one season.


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## EPB (Nov 3, 2020)

ss20 said:


> It wouldn't make sense for a resort to not open.  How many employees wouldn't return the next season?  How many season passholders would never return?  And you'd still be paying taxes on the land, and have buildings depreciate.  You're better off running a season in the red.  If there's anything positive about this industry, it's that these ski resorts can weather the storm and are used to having an occasional unprofitable season.  Most bounce back.
> 
> For a small ski area for a season I can see it making some sense- less equipment and buildings to mothball for future use.  But a big resort with 15+ lifts, multiple resort-owned lodges, hotels, and condos, dozens and dozens of pieces of heavy machinery like groomers and shuttle busses, the investment of having a few key staff members preparing/keeping things mothballed probably would not be worth it for just one season.


Yeah I think we're basically in agreement. No chance a Vail resort doesn't open knowing what we know today, for example. Smaller ones are a different story. I think quite a bit of the clientele would give smaller places a pass this year, but maybe I'm too forgiving.

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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

skiur said:


> You really think that if they dont have out of state skiers showing up that resorts are going to blow any snow, or run any lifts?  They would lose less money by closing.


You just put in the final nail on the coffin of my season pass purchase plan!

With all the lodges restricted and restaurants take-out only, life lines snaking half way up the hill... NOT TO MENTION the potential of Covid risk, why would I want to go to a life-served mountain except in the hope it'll be half empty???


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## EPB (Nov 3, 2020)

spiderpig said:


> $timulu$


I wouldn't count on it, haha. 

That said, I do think Les Otten's vote announcement was a smart/rational publicity stunt to signal to the potential future Biden administration that there's a man of high principle who could do a great deal of good for a beleaguered part of the state/country with $100 million of other people's money.

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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Yeah I think we're basically in agreement. No chance a Vail resort doesn't open knowing what we know today, for example. Smaller ones are a different story. I think quite a bit of the clientele would give smaller places a pass this year, but maybe I'm too forgiving.


But doesn't most "smaller" ones cater to mostly local traffic, which isn't affected by the travel restriction?


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## EPB (Nov 3, 2020)

abc said:


> But doesn't most "smaller" ones cater to mostly local traffic, which isn't affected by the travel restriction?


To make myself clear (because this wasn't), I mean small businesses more than physically small mountains. 

In VT, Burke is one that is small in terms of skier visits but high in fixed operating costs (high speed lifts) to open for a day. 

Black (NH) is a "small" place that I happen to be more familiar with. They do cater to locals to a degree, but would be in serious trouble if nobody from MA could visit. 

I bet Bolton does fine. They're a "local Burlington/Montpelier" hill the best I can tell. 

Magic might be a different story - never been tough, but that place seems to be kindof a shoe string budget place reliant on out of state traffic like Black NH.

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## skiur (Nov 3, 2020)

ss20 said:


> It wouldn't make sense for a resort to not open.  How many employees wouldn't return the next season?  How many season passholders would never return?  And you'd still be paying taxes on the land, and have buildings depreciate.  You're better off running a season in the red.  If there's anything positive about this industry, it's that these ski resorts can weather the storm and are used to having an occasional unprofitable season.  Most bounce back.
> 
> For a small ski area for a season I can see it making some sense- less equipment and buildings to mothball for future use.  But a big resort with 15+ lifts, multiple resort-owned lodges, hotels, and condos, dozens and dozens of pieces of heavy machinery like groomers and shuttle busses, the investment of having a few key staff members preparing/keeping things mothballed probably would not be worth it for just one season.



Even if that is the case and they do not close, pray for a lot of natural snow cause they won't be blowing much and they were will be running a few lifts as possible.  Wouldn't bet on a lot of grooming either, and that's great if it snows a lot but try recovering from rain then a freeze up with limited grooming. Larger resorts might not even open all areas of the mountain.


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## ne_skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Looks like I can say goodbye to a 2020-2021 ski season
https://twitter.com/liftblog/status/1323694446181978112


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## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

To add to the insanity of Vermont...7 Vermont counties are currently above the 400 cases/million threshold.  6 counties are under the threshold.  

So over half the counties would be banned from their own state.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2020)

ne_skier said:


> Looks like I can say goodbye to a 2020-2021 ski season
> https://twitter.com/liftblog/status/1323694446181978112



This is rather bizarre. VT is requiring ski resorts to threaten their own customers that the ski resort itself will not let them be a customer in the future if they are caught lying? How exactly does VT plan to enforce ski resorts "banning" guests in the future? So VT is relying on private businesses to penalize their own customers...


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## ne_skier (Nov 3, 2020)

ss20 said:


> To add to the insanity of Vermont...7 Vermont counties are currently above the 400 cases/million threshold.  6 counties are under the threshold.
> 
> So over half the counties would be banned from their own state.



And I'm sure that the ski areas will be jumping out of their seats to learn that whether or not they turn a profit pretty much depends on whether or not the mass majority of their usual clientele is willing to sit in a hotel room for 1-2 weeks just to ski


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## ne_skier (Nov 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> This is rather bizarre. VT is requiring ski resorts to threaten their own customers that the ski resort itself will not let them be a customer in the future if they are caught lying? How exactly does VT plan to enforce ski resorts "banning" guests in the future? So VT is relying on private businesses to penalize their own customers...



They're doing it with hotels too. We called up our usual hotel asking what the Covid rules were. They said that all guests by VT law must sign a waiver saying that they have either quarantined for 14 days  or 7 days with a negative Covid test, also that they didn't stop for more than a brief amount of time on the way up and that they traveled in a personal vehicle.


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## cdskier (Nov 3, 2020)

ne_skier said:


> They're doing it with hotels too. We called up our usual hotel asking what the Covid rules were. They said that all guests by VT law must sign a waiver saying that they have either quarantined for 14 days  or 7 days with a negative Covid test, also that they didn't stop for more than a brief amount of time on the way up and that they traveled in a personal vehicle.



I get requiring them to ask the question or sign a waiver. I don't get the part about also requiring the businesses to threaten to dole out the penalty themselves for non-compliance. That would be like if I owned a store and the town put up a no parking sign in front of my store and then told me I was responsible for giving a ticket to anyone that parked there and walked into my store.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2020)

My wife and I purchased snowshoes for this winter.  We will wait and see how things develop before we strap on a pair of skis.


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## drjeff (Nov 3, 2020)

I'm guessing that there's a couple of VT second home owners, who are attorneys, who will be filing a case challenging the Governor's edict, in the not too distant future.

Also interesting how the Governor released this guidance on election day, when the distraction factor is bound to be a higher than usualy right now.


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## gittist (Nov 3, 2020)

I think ski areas will figure out where they'd lose the least money and go with that. Unless they come out with a vaccine by Christmas, this isn't going to be a banner year for ski areas unless they happen to be in a state with few restrictions.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 3, 2020)

To me this is still a bunch of bullshit. How can the state or resorts determine what people are doing. If I am at home for two weeks only doing essential activities and come to Vermont would not seem any different to the state than someone who had a huge party at their home and then came to Vermont. This is impossible to enforce and is purely a way of discouraging as many out of staters from coming in the first place as the state knows that there is no way to completely stop travel. The effort should really be focused on safety measures that can actually be enforced and have more of an impact. Say I quarantine for 2 weeks then go have a party right before skiing? It seems as though in Vermont’s eyes that’s safer than someone who takes extreme cautions both at home and in Vermont but doesn’t quarentine. There is no logic in these new “rules”. They’re still merely guidelines. 


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## fbrissette (Nov 3, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> My wife and I purchased snowshoes for this winter.  We will wait and see how things develop before we strap on a pair of skis.



My wife an I have snowshoes.   Truth is, snowshoeing sucks.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> My wife an I have snowshoes.   Truth is, snowshoeing sucks.



You're a buzzkill!  LOL!


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## kingslug (Nov 3, 2020)

Vermont= "Where are your papers"


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2020)

Here is a nice summary of the ski area rules issued today by Vermont.

1. Visitors must comply with travel guidelines.
2. Contact tracing information will be collected.
3. Ski areas must reduce the number of out-of-state staff.
4. They must reduce lift capacity to 50-percent unless those visitors are traveling together. Gondolas can only carry one party unless they’re big enough to comply with a six-foot buffer zone.
5. Day-use lodges must reduce capacity to 50-percent or a maximum of 75 people in that space.
6. Ski areas must loosen cancellation policies so sick people don’t feel pressured to come here or lose money.


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## VTKilarney (Nov 3, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Vermont= "Where are your papers"



New York's new rules are even worse.  If you are coming to New York from a non-adjacent state, you must have proof of a negative covid test within 72 hours prior to arrival and then you STILL have to quarantine.  You can test on the 4th day of quarantine and will only be released from quarantine if you test negative.


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## ss20 (Nov 3, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is a nice summary of the ski area rules issued today by Vermont.
> 
> 1. Visitors must comply with travel guidelines.
> 2. Contact tracing information will be collected.
> ...



It's all nothing new.  Except that before you'll ski you'll get a "sign here please" saying you quarantined.  

Most resorts already were collecting contact tracing info- name, age, phone number, email, address.  

Someone should do a mock-up report of this pandemic if it had happened 20 years ago.  I couldn't even imagine.  I feel like today this virus makes things a PITA, back then without all the online logistics and internet and everything things would've been hellova lot different.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 3, 2020)

ss20 said:


> It's all nothing new.  Except that before you'll ski you'll get a "sign here please" saying you quarantined.
> 
> Most resorts already were collecting contact tracing info- name, age, phone number, email, address.
> 
> Someone should do a mock-up report of this pandemic if it had happened 20 years ago.  I couldn't even imagine.  I feel like today this virus makes things a PITA, back then without all the online logistics and internet and everything things would've been hellova lot different.



^ this 


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## slatham (Nov 3, 2020)

https://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accdnew/files/documents/Vermont%20Ski%20Resort%20COVID-19%20Winter%20Operations%20Guidance%20-%202020-11-03.pdf

Here are the full guidelines.

Not really too surprised. I guess the attestation and loss ski privledges is stronger than expected. But I also thought out of state workers would be outright banned unless a green county or quarantine.

 I am disappointed that the cross-state travel rules haven't been made more practical and focused on "exposure" vs. a "quarantine". Or positivity rate vs. number of active cases. I guess there is still hope.

As a side note, I love to snowshoe......


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## icecoast1 (Nov 3, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is a nice summary of the ski area rules issued today by Vermont.
> 
> 
> 3. Ski areas must reduce the number of out-of-state staff.




That one will be interesting thrown on top of no foreign workers.    The mountains better hope the locals want to be a ski bum for a winter


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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> That one will be interesting thrown on top of no foreign workers.    The mountains better hope the locals want to be a ski bum for a winter


What about all those unemployed hotel and restaurant workers?


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2020)

abc said:


> What about all those unemployed hotel and restaurant workers?



They make $50K/year not working


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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> My wife an I have snowshoes.   Truth is, snowshoeing sucks.


I'm going to have to try it. (I have a pendent to try things that are hard)

- Skiing down the hill was easy, but no, I had to kick and glide on xc skis.  
- Once I got a hang of gliding on each kick and can get around rolling terrain alright, I have to take up telemark, skinning UP hills. 
- Where there's no mountain and xc skiing is too easy (lower Hudson valley), I need to learn to skate ski just to "make work" for myself!
- Now someone said snowshoe sucks? I'd better give it a try... no glide even on downhills, that sounds just like my kind of fun! 

I actually have a pair of snowshoe from someone who got too much gear. But between a lot of trips out west and skate skiing near home, I never had time to actually use it. Perhaps this is the winter it gets some use as I'm about to decide NOT to buy a pass (hence no  downhill skiing)


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## skiur (Nov 3, 2020)

djd66 said:


> They make $50K/year not working



That ended over the summer.  Now they only get whatever the state gives which isnt much in most cases.


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## NYDB (Nov 3, 2020)

They'll be scoring empty powder days in VT while everyone else is quarantined

More stimulus is on its way no matter who wins tonight


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## JimG. (Nov 3, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Without insider info, it's impossible to know what the answer to the "to run, or not to run" question is. That said, I'd caution anyone cheering on quarantines that limit out of state visitors to be careful what they wish for both in terms of 2020/2021 operating budgets and increasing the likelihood that not all the VT ski areas make it though the season alive.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



This!

VTer's wishing for locals only skiing may need to buy touring gear to ski at all.


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## machski (Nov 3, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> yes I agree with you BG.  That's how I read it.  so honestly that should be pretty easy.  If you have a pass or bought a ticket online, they have your info.
> 
> no big deal...


Yes, but dig deeper.  A list of daily skiers/riders and their contact information is not enough for the State of Vermont.  The resorts will also have to collect said data AGAIN for all patrons utilizing lodges and dining facilities on mountain separate from the ticket use lists.  Talk about a bureaucratic nightmare!!

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## nhskier1969 (Nov 3, 2020)

I guess I won't be speeding on 89 in Vermont this year.


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## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2020)

machski said:


> Yes, but dig deeper.  A list of daily skiers/riders and their contact information is not enough for the State of Vermont.  The resorts will also have to collect said data AGAIN for all patrons utilizing lodges and dining facilities on mountain separate from the ticket use lists.  Talk about a bureaucratic nightmare!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Scan your ticket/pass when you enter and exit said lodge.


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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Scan your ticket/pass when you enter and exit said lodge.


Nice!

Where many see problem, some see solution and opportunity.


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## djd66 (Nov 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Scan your ticket/pass when you enter and exit said lodge.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



So will scanning my pass at the lift be enough for the State of VT registration or do you envision physical paper work that must be filled out?


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## drjeff (Nov 3, 2020)

djd66 said:


> So will scanning my pass at the lift be enough for the State of VT registration or do you envision physical paper work that must be filled out?


My hunch, just like with a season pass where you sign a liability release once before the season begins, that they'll be a one time "I agree to follow the travel rules of VT" disclaimer 

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## abc (Nov 3, 2020)

djd66 said:


> So will scanning my pass at the lift be enough for the State of VT registration or do you envision physical paper work that must be filled out?


Why? 

Is there a requirement to fill out a form?


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## kingslug (Nov 4, 2020)

Ok..so you fill out forms..sign things ..scan things..How will they know who broke the rules? How do you enforce this?


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## drjeff (Nov 4, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Ok..so you fill out forms..sign things ..scan things..How will they know who broke the rules? How do you enforce this?



The reality is, unless VT suddenly develops and implements a plan where they stop EVERY vehicle at EVERY border crossing in the entire state, and then do follow up checks, basically daily, for the entire quarantine period, with where all of those vehicles say that they're going, they can't.  And I highly doubt that VT has both the available manpower and/or available funding to implement such draconian measures, and if they did, chances are there's more than a few judges that would rule against such actions by the state.


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## tumbler (Nov 4, 2020)

I think that there will be a lot of full time occupied second homes this winter with kids doing remote school and parents WFH.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 4, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think that there will be a lot of full time occupied second homes this winter with kids doing remote school and parents WFH.



I agree, but I also think most of the people that skied on weekends last year will continue to do so. Some won’t, but the guidelines really don’t mean shit unless it involves shutting down the borders or closing ski resorts altogether which as mentioned, is not a feasible option. Ikon and Epic passes have seen record sales and a lot of people want to ski. My feeling is that Vermont is just trying to deter as much people from coming as possible by putting out new rules that could turn away some. They know they ultimately have no control over it, nor do the resorts. 


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## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think that there will be a lot of full time occupied second homes this winter with kids doing remote school and parents WFH.


Id say those parents have highly misplaced priorities unless 

A. They have no option for in person learning at their primary residence

Or

B.  Their kids are older and their local school district has a very good remote program. 

But if the motivation is mostly based on their desire to use their vacation home and ski?  That's pretty lame.  I would give up skiing for the entirety of my kids school years if that's what it took to provide them with a quality education. 

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## BenedictGomez (Nov 4, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> *Whats the difference between hospital taking advantage of the system and Busineses *who shouldn't have  qualified for the PPP but they got it anyway.  IE Harvard getting 30 million dollars
> Both are taking advantage of the situation.



The average American has no idea just how much teaching hospitols essentially commit fraud against the government to bilk taxpayers out of billions of dollars each year, because, well, I guess because they're not tobacco or oil companies. But it's a story that should be told. I look forward to a 60 Minutes or 20/20 story one day.



ss20 said:


> *To add to the insanity of Vermont...7 Vermont counties are currently above the 400 cases/million threshold.  6 counties are under the threshold. So over half the counties would be banned from their own state.*


 

So no Vermonters living in a "red" blue county can travel to a Vermont county that isnt "red" blue, amiright?  Ohhhhhh.......


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 4, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Also* interesting how the Governor released this guidance on election day, when the distraction factor is bound to be a higher *than usualy right now.



This man understands politics.



VTKilarney said:


> New York's new rules are even worse.  If you are coming to New York from a non-adjacent state,* you must have proof of a negative covid test within 72 hours prior to arrival and then you STILL have to quarantine.*  You can test on the 4th day of quarantine and will only be released from quarantine if you test negative.



#Science


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## tumbler (Nov 4, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Id say those parents have highly misplaced priorities unless
> 
> A. They have no option for in person learning at their primary residence
> 
> ...



You must have younger children, mine are older.  This is not easy for anyone but especially the parents with young kids.  Hybrid learning is two half days per week in school, the rest is remote.  Not really missing much by being fully remote.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 4, 2020)

tumbler said:


> *Hybrid learning is two half days per week in school, the rest is remote.*  Not really missing much by being fully remote.



What elixir does the school give the children to prevent COVID19 the 2 days they're in school?


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## fbrissette (Nov 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> What elixir does the school give the children to prevent COVID19 the 2 days they're in school?



In Quebec, in high school they alternate one day at home and one day at school, and I just can't figure out the apparently absurd logic behind this.


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## slatham (Nov 4, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> In Quebec, in high school they alternate one day at home and one day at school, and I just can't figure out the apparently absurd logic behind this.



In our school district the splitting is specifically to allow more social distancing in class. A typical classroom with 30 kids is not big enough to socially distance, but with 15 kids it is. However we are 2 in, 2 out. We also have a full remote option, which my daughter opted for.


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## machski (Nov 4, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Scan your ticket/pass when you enter and exit said lodge.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Easy from our end, a bit more difficult on the resort end as they have to now build a way to store all that scan data separately.  So areas with RFID, maybe a bit easier once IT builds all that up.  Areas not using RFID, good luck.

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## drjeff (Nov 4, 2020)

slatham said:


> In our school district the splitting is specifically to allow more social distancing in class. A typical classroom with 30 kids is not big enough to socially distance, but with 15 kids it is. However we are 2 in, 2 out. We also have a full remote option, which my daughter opted for.



My kids highschool has been full remote since the school year started, and actually next week is scheduled to start 1 day a week of in person (the 1st half of the alphabet goes on Monday and the 2nd half on Tuesday) and then virtual Wed-Fri presuming the current bump in COVID cases and scaling back a bit of the reopening status doesn't have the school staying full virtual. 

If they stay full virtual, and potentially cancel Winter sports, the reality is my kids could stay up at our condo in VT at take their classes, without much of an issue. Now my wife and I to pull it off and stay within the "good" graces of VT, would have to dramatically increase our daily commuting......  :wink:


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## fbrissette (Nov 4, 2020)

slatham said:


> In our school district the splitting is specifically to allow more social distancing in class. A typical classroom with 30 kids is not big enough to socially distance, but with 15 kids it is. However we are 2 in, 2 out. We also have a full remote option, which my daughter opted for.



Well in Quebec, they are going with full-size classes (no social distancing), one day out of two....  Class is a bubble with roaming professors.


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## spiderpig (Nov 4, 2020)

To "get around" the lift chair capacity restrictions, can people from separate parties choose to link up in the line if they are of a similar mind about the riskiness of the proposition? Only problem would be identifying other people who would want to ride with you.


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## spiderpig (Nov 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> So no Vermonters living in a "red" blue county can travel to a Vermont county that isnt "red" blue, amiright?  Ohhhhhh.......



The covid knows not to cross county lines, only state lines.


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## slatham (Nov 4, 2020)

fbrissette said:


> Well in Quebec, they are going with full-size classes (no social distancing), one day out of two....  Class is a bubble with roaming professors.



Yeah that is curious to say the least.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 4, 2020)

tumbler said:


> You must have younger children, mine are older.  This is not easy for anyone but especially the parents with young kids.  Hybrid learning is two half days per week in school, the rest is remote.  Not really missing much by being fully remote.


Yes

Very young.  Son is full remote Kindergarten.  Then we have a daughter who is almost 2.  The school is doing their best with the programming, but all of the kids are struggling.  You watch the other kids on Zoom and like my own, participation even with a parent over their shoulder is hit or miss. Hence my qualifiers on student age.  Friends with older kids are reporting a much more positive remote experience. 

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## BenedictGomez (Nov 4, 2020)

slatham said:


> *In our school district the splitting is specifically to allow more social distancing in class. *A typical classroom with 30 kids is not big enough to socially distance, but with 15 kids it is. However we are 2 in, 2 out. We also have a full remote option, which my daughter opted for.



How did they afford to Uber every child to school individually while they shelved all school-buses?   
I guess recess is out too?  No fun.



spiderpig said:


> *The covid knows not to cross county lines, only state lines*.



It's a very obedient & woke virus.  It even knows to leave rioters & social justice protestors alone.


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## mikec142 (Nov 4, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Yes
> 
> Very young.  Son is full remote Kindergarten.  Then we have a daughter who is almost 2.  The school is doing their best with the programming, but all of the kids are struggling.  You watch the other kids on Zoom and like my own, participation even with a parent over their shoulder is hit or miss. Hence my qualifiers on student age.  Friends with older kids are reporting a much more positive remote experience.
> 
> Sent from my moto g power using AlpineZone mobile app



As a qualifier, my wife and I put our kids education above all else.  We have a college freshman and a HS junior.  My youngest is in a hybrid situation.  She has Monday and Thursday of a little over half day in person learning.  Tuesday and Friday it's the same time frame, but remote.  Wednesday is a full day of remote learning.  Since school started, we've had two instances where there were Covid outbreaks (not related to school) that have caused the school to go full remote for two weeks.  Basically, my kid has been in person maybe 10 days this year.  She has said, more and more kids are electing for full remote as the in person situation is significantly less than ideal.  My daughter is planning on attending in-person school for as long as it is available.  Side note, my daughter's physics teacher is all remote.  So even the one day a week when my kid has in person physics, she is sitting in the classroom on a zoom call.

That said, if we owned a second home that allowed us to ski/spend more time outside excercising/etc. I'd give full remote learning very serious consideration.  We would be giving up very, very little and gaining a ton.  Think about how much healthier people would be both physically and mentally.  We've begun to supplement my daughter's education with reading and viewing of documentaries.  This could also be done elsewhere.  If you've ever watched the movie, A River Runs Through It, there's something to be said for supplementing formal education with time spent outdoors.


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## dlague (Nov 4, 2020)

Put this in the wrong thread earlier

https://www.cnn.com/travel/amp/skiing-seasons-changes-coronavirus/index.html

This article has some interesting points!  Some have been throughly vetted here but a few other points have been raised.  As numbers increase will quarantine steps be required in states that did not require it before or even quarentine requirements coming hack to home?


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 4, 2020)

I was wondering how the resort are going to do the lift lines.  Will each lift line be seperated by the amount in your party?  For example the quad line would have quads and triples in the same line, doubles in another line and then the singles line(I wouldn't want to be in that line this year)
Would they take the quad line for every other loading?  Any thoughts?


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## urungus (Nov 4, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I was wondering how the resort are going to do the lift lines.  Will each lift line be seperated by the amount in your party?  For example the quad line would have quads and triples in the same line, doubles in another line and then the singles line(I wouldn't want to be in that line this year)
> Would they take the quad line for every other loading?  Any thoughts?



I am expecting a single lift line, with groups of 1-4 people queued up 6 feet apart


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## drjeff (Nov 4, 2020)

urungus said:


> I am expecting a single lift line, with groups of 1-4 people queued up 6 feet apart



Pretty sure this will be the case, with maybe some lateral spacing between the queue lanes. Guessing that there will be no dedicated singles lanes on most any lift, short of maybe some quads and six packs where they'll take a single for each side.

The choice to pair up, or not, is likely going to all happen within the queue lanes this year, and not by line attendants pairing folks up


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## TSQURD (Nov 4, 2020)

Just called IKON to see where our passes were, didn't get that answer but an interesting conversation none the less.  Somehow got connected to a rep at Stratton so asked some questions about the new requirements for resorts- he claimed the resorts would be requiring proof of quarantine AND proof of a negative test prior to accessing the lift.  Claimed if that is not on file, the pass won't work for anyone not in a green county. He flat out said there will be no weekend trips this year.  He also said there are different quarantine requirements for yellow vs red counties which is not they way I interpret the guidance on the VT site (https://www.vermontvacation.com/travel-restrictions)

I was politely pressing on some of his statements, but the call conveniently was disconnected as I was quoting from the VT web site.  Not sure if he just misunderstanding some of the information, what he was saying was how IKON was going to address the VT rules, or if I misunderstood something.

For the record, we've been to VT several times since this started, always following quarantine requirements at the time.  Never documented the quarantine though.  If there is indeed a requirement to document, I see many people getting caught off guard.


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## mikec142 (Nov 4, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Just called IKON to see where our passes were, didn't get that answer but an interesting conversation none the less.  Somehow got connected to a rep at Stratton so asked some questions about the new requirements for resorts- he claimed the resorts would be requiring proof of quarantine AND proof of a negative test prior to accessing the lift.  Claimed if that is not on file, the pass won't work for anyone not in a green county. He flat out said there will be no weekend trips this year.  He also said there are different quarantine requirements for yellow vs red counties which is not they way I interpret the guidance on the VT site (https://www.vermontvacation.com/travel-restrictions)
> 
> I was politely pressing on some of his statements, but the call conveniently was disconnected as I was quoting from the VT web site.  Not sure if he just misunderstanding some of the information, what he was saying was how IKON was going to address the VT rules, or if I misunderstood something.
> 
> For the record, we've been to VT several times since this started, always following quarantine requirements at the time.  Never documented the quarantine though.  If there is indeed a requirement to document, I see many people getting caught off guard.



How are they going to require documented proof?  Doesn't seem possible.


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## machski (Nov 4, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> How are they going to require documented proof?  Doesn't seem possible.


What I read when you buy a day ticket, you have to check a box online that says you will have followed VT guidance.  How they will work that daily for passholders I have no idea.  They may set up a system where you must log into your pass account each day and check a box or they could lock out your pass from the gates (at areas with RFID anyway).  NH is requiring something similar but you are attesting you are symptom free daily rather than quarantined/tested like VT.

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## TSQURD (Nov 4, 2020)

The answer he gave me was through the SARA Alert system. He claimed you receive an email at the end of your quarantine that serves as documentation.  He also stated that signing up for that was already required, but everything says its 'strongly encouraged', dont see anything stating its a requirement.


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## ScottySkis (Nov 4, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Just called IKON to see where our passes were, didn't get that answer but an interesting conversation none the less.  Somehow got connected to a rep at Stratton so asked some questions about the new requirements for resorts- he claimed the resorts would be requiring proof of quarantine AND proof of a negative test prior to accessing the lift.  Claimed if that is not on file, the pass won't work for anyone not in a green county. He flat out said there will be no weekend trips this year.  He also said there are different quarantine requirements for yellow vs red counties which is not they way I interpret the guidance on the VT site (https://www.vermontvacation.com/travel-restrictions)
> 
> I was politely pressing on some of his statements, but the call conveniently was disconnected as I was quoting from the VT web site.  Not sure if he just misunderstanding some of the information, what he was saying was how IKON was going to address the VT rules, or if I misunderstood something.
> 
> For the record, we've been to VT several times since this started, always following quarantine requirements at the time.  Never documented the quarantine though.  If there is indeed a requirement to document, I see many people getting caught off guard.



That crazy
I know Platty is not planning on that


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## drjeff (Nov 4, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> The answer he gave me was through the SARA Alert system. He claimed you receive an email at the end of your quarantine that serves as documentation.  He also stated that signing up for that was already required, but everything says its 'strongly encouraged', dont see anything stating its a requirement.


If I am not mistaken, aside from some social media shaming by the Woke crowd, the "Karen's" and the COVID paranoid, and even a very small minority of the population who has some co-morbidities that should have them validly concerned about being in close proximity with an active COVID+ individual in a closed space, while one or both are maskless, and then not following proper personal hygiene protocols after, there hasn't been an arrest or imprisonment over breaking COVID quarantine protocols. Some isolated fines? Yup, but in general, this is a "request" for one to voluntarily follow, rather than a direct order with criminal consequences if one doesn't.

Being smart, properly wearing a mask and then following proper hand/face hygiene protocols after putting on/taking off ones mask for the overwhelming majority of person to person contacts, just in reality is going to keep well over 99% of the population safe, and in the unfortunate situation if one does contract COVID, the reality is that if you're generally healthy, rested, up on your Vit D, Vit C and Zinc levels well over 99% will recover. That's just objectively is looking at the data. And I'm sure if someone told many of us AZ'ers staring at a perfect pitch, track free bowl with a foot of blower powder on it that there was over a 99% chance it wouldn't slide if you go ski/ride it, and then over a 99% chance that if it did slide that you'd be fine if you got caught in it, you'd be making tracks in that bowl with minimal thought about the very low risk for harm and even possible death, based on how low the risk is

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## tumbler (Nov 5, 2020)

This doesn't feel like guidance from the state to the ski areas to me.  It feels like the state is passing the buck onto the ski areas to enforce the state's rules.  Which in turn, gives the state the opening to shut down the ski areas for not enforcing their rules when a positive case pops up at an area.


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## urungus (Nov 5, 2020)

tumbler said:


> This doesn't feel like guidance from the state to the ski areas to me.  It feels like the state is passing the buck onto the ski areas to enforce the state's rules.  Which in turn, gives the state the opening to shut down the ski areas for not enforcing their rules when a positive case pops up at an area.



Hmm ... does the state “pass the buck” to bars and liquor stores by requiring them to enforce drinking laws ?  Not sure there is any other alternative short of setting up roadblocks at the state line.


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## slatham (Nov 5, 2020)

Finally figured it out. I am so slow. This is VT's way of accelerating the move of WFH Tri-staters to VT! Many of which will need to buy a place hence further inflating the already hot real estate market and simultaneously changing the biggest Marco economic issues in VT - population decline and an aging population! Brilliant!


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## kingslug (Nov 5, 2020)

We bought out place in Stowe... because..it kind of snows a lot up there.


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## dlague (Nov 5, 2020)

TSQURD said:


> Just called IKON to see where our passes were, didn't get that answer but an interesting conversation none the less.  Somehow got connected to a rep at Stratton so asked some questions about the new requirements for resorts- he claimed the resorts would be requiring proof of quarantine AND proof of a negative test prior to accessing the lift.  Claimed if that is not on file, the pass won't work for anyone not in a green county. He flat out said there will be no weekend trips this year.  He also said there are different quarantine requirements for yellow vs red counties which is not they way I interpret the guidance on the VT site (https://www.vermontvacation.com/travel-restrictions)
> 
> I was politely pressing on some of his statements, but the call conveniently was disconnected as I was quoting from the VT web site.  Not sure if he just misunderstanding some of the information, what he was saying was how IKON was going to address the VT rules, or if I misunderstood something.
> 
> For the record, we've been to VT several times since this started, always following quarantine requirements at the time.  Never documented the quarantine though.  If there is indeed a requirement to document, I see many people getting caught off guard.



AND a negative test?  The insurance companies are not going pay for Covid tests every time someone wants to go skiing.  The test on your own is about $90 and another $99 for lab results at least here in Colorado.  We just did it to go on vacation.  And that is per person.  So the Covid negative test idea is good for maybe a week long stay but that can be a big hit for a family.  If some states have free clinics - well having  skiers use them so they can hit the slopes is the wrong use for the free test.

Documenting quarantine is another lame idea that people will work around.  For the ski area to be checking either for every skier at a place like Stratton, Killington or Okemo seems crazy since they do not want ticket lines but will create a new line.

Also sounds like Ikon will be playing big brother - so it you move you better update Ikon!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 1dog (Nov 5, 2020)

drjeff said:


> If I am not mistaken, aside from some social media shaming by the Woke crowd, the "Karen's" and the COVID paranoid, and even a very small minority of the population who has some co-morbidities that should have them validly concerned about being in close proximity with an active COVID+ individual in a closed space, while one or both are maskless, and then not following proper personal hygiene protocols after, there hasn't been an arrest or imprisonment over breaking COVID quarantine protocols. Some isolated fines? Yup, but in general, this is a "request" for one to voluntarily follow, rather than a direct order with criminal consequences if one doesn't.
> 
> Being smart, properly wearing a mask and then following proper hand/face hygiene protocols after putting on/taking off ones mask for the overwhelming majority of person to person contacts, just in reality is going to keep well over 99% of the population safe, and in the unfortunate situation if one does contract COVID, the reality is that if you're generally healthy, rested, up on your Vit D, Vit C and Zinc levels well over 99% will recover. That's just objectively is looking at the data. And I'm sure if someone told many of us AZ'ers staring at a perfect pitch, track free bowl with a foot of blower powder on it that there was over a 99% chance it wouldn't slide if you go ski/ride it, and then over a 99% chance that if it did slide that you'd be fine if you got caught in it, you'd be making tracks in that bowl with minimal thought about the very low risk for harm and even possible death, based on how low the risk is
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using AlpineZone mobile app



Ditto  - 'Woke, Karens, paranoia', prescription is spot on. 

Been on some couloir's and chutes with far less than 99% chance of remaining stable. It worked - so far. Life outside = risk.

Others may point out that you may be risking others well-being . . .  understand that - I drive 3+ hours each Friday from MA - biggest risk of the weekend.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 5, 2020)

MA now offers 'free' tests to any resident of MA. So, my fam will get one and then bring it along - some clients tell me its a 45 minute turn-around. 

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/stop-the-spread

Free kills me - like no one is paying for it.


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## kingslug (Nov 5, 2020)

2 foot long swabs shoved up your nose all the time...sounds awesome.


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## drjeff (Nov 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> 2 foot long swabs shoved up your nose all the time...sounds awesome.



The one's that I use in my office are much closer to standard q-tip size rather than the initial ones that were a good foot long or so.

I will be curious to hear from my daughter later today, who literally as I type this is waiting to get a COVID test at a lab facility run by the hospital where she's having some jaw surgery next week, if they're using the "long" q-tip or the shorter q-tip for test sample collecting....


----------



## 1dog (Nov 5, 2020)

agree - but was told its the short swabs. . . .


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## abc (Nov 5, 2020)

dlague said:


> AND a negative test?  The insurance companies are not going pay for Covid tests every time someone wants to go skiing.  The test on your own is about $90 and another $99 for lab results at least here in Colorado.


How are they going to do that? Check that your insurance pay for it before they administer the test? Doing all that while you sit in the car in a queue at a drive-in testing facility?


----------



## abc (Nov 5, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Id say those parents have highly misplaced priorities unless
> 
> A. They have no option for in person learning at their primary residence


That's probably the case for many. 

While some school district have "in person learning". It's in name only. What's 1 day a week going to make any difference? I doubt it. 

Not to mention that can all of a sudden change and school be shutdown without warning if case number goes up. 

I'd say a parent who REALLY puts priority for their kids education will do better by finding out how to get the best out of remote learning! For that's going to be the bulk and backbone of the 20/21 school year!!!


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## ScottySkis (Nov 5, 2020)

1dog said:


> agree - but was told its the short swabs. . . .



I had if done 2 months ago before my back Corizon shot next day
If was maybe inch in length no pain


----------



## kingslug (Nov 5, 2020)

It took weeks to get our tests back. And has been stated before..you can get it 5 minutes after the test. Its the same as how we do building rounds..you look at a machine..5 minutes later it breaks and the first thing they do is accuse you of not looking at it..as if it can't break because you looked at it. its all BS.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 5, 2020)

Keystone opening tomorrow

Jack Hole's tram capacity reduced down to 25 people.


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 5, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Jack Hole's tram capacity reduced down to 25 people.



Gotta wonder what Big Sky's will be.  1 party maybe?


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## gittist (Nov 5, 2020)

This (among other things) is from the Vermont Ski Resort COVID-19 Winter Operations Guidance at https://accd.vermont.gov/content/vermont-ski-resort-covid-19-winter-operations-guidance:

"Resorts should collect names, phone numbers, email addresses and addresses in electronic form of all users of a day-use lodge, when they used the lodge, and where they sat, and retain the list for 30 days."

So when you go to the bathroom the COVID police will be documenting which toilet, urinal, or sink you used?

Don't be surprised if some ski areas just say to heck with it and don't open.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 5, 2020)

gittist said:


> Don't be surprised if some ski areas just say to heck with it and don't open.


Especially since there is a decent likelihood that they will have to close down entirely at some point.


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## fbrissette (Nov 5, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Keystone opening tomorrow
> 
> Jack Hole's tram capacity reduced down to 25 people.



Wow. From 100 to 25...  That would mean no tram for me for sure.  Definitely the year to go backcountry skiing.


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## kingslug (Nov 5, 2020)

Just don't go in the lodge. Car..ski..car


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 5, 2020)

gittist said:


> This (among other things) is from the Vermont Ski Resort COVID-19 Winter Operations Guidance at https://accd.vermont.gov/content/vermont-ski-resort-covid-19-winter-operations-guidance:
> 
> "Resorts should collect names, phone numbers, email addresses and addresses in electronic form of all users of a day-use lodge, when they used the lodge, and where they sat, and retain the list for 30 days."
> 
> ...



And what the hell are ski resorts/Vermont supposed to do with that data other than contact tracing if they find out that you test positive or something? Seems way too extra. I know I’ve said it before, but be smart, wear a mask, and keep your distance. That’s what matters this season. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dickc (Nov 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Just don't go in the lodge. Car..ski..car



Just pack a big wad of TP in your pocket for use in the woods.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Just don't go in the lodge. Car..ski..car



That's what I've done on 90% of my ski days historically. Only time I use the lodge is on super cold days to warm up a bit or I might eat in one of the bars on the mountain if I'm hosting some friends that want to. Otherwise I usually eat a late lunch off the mountain when I'm done skiing.


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## Keelhauled (Nov 5, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> And what the hell are ski resorts/Vermont supposed to do with that data *other than contact tracing if they find out that you test positive or something*? Seems way too extra. I know I’ve said it before, but be smart, wear a mask, and keep your distance. That’s what matters this season.



That's EXACTLY what they do with it, well, what the state will do with it anyway.  It's not extra, it's the bare minimum of what you do if you want to track and control a highly contagious person-to-person transmitted disease.  JFC, it's not like they're asking for the world here, it's the same standard most other non-retail businesses in the state are already held to.


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## cdskier (Nov 5, 2020)

Keelhauled said:


> That's EXACTLY what they do with it, well, what the state will do with it anyway.  It's not extra, it's the bare minimum of what you do if you want to track and control a highly contagious person-to-person transmitted disease.  JFC, it's not like they're asking for the world here, it's the same standard most other non-retail businesses in the state are already held to.



I agree with pretty much everything they're expected to collect other than the "where they sat" part. Not quite sure how you track that one.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 5, 2020)

Keelhauled said:


> JFC, it's not like they're asking for the world here, it's *the same standard most other non-retail businesses in the state are already held to*.



Why aren't Vermont retail businesses doing the same?   

Does the coronavirus die from exposure to low-margin price points?


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## JimG. (Nov 5, 2020)

gittist said:


> Don't be surprised if some ski areas just say to heck with it and don't open.



I think many skiers will be feeling this way as well and just won't bother this season.


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## urungus (Nov 5, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I agree with pretty much everything they're expected to collect other than the "where they sat" part. Not quite sure how you track that one.



I think most places are requiring reservations to dine in the lodge ?  And so they are probably already tracking the table # for each reservation for capacity management.

Here is Magic’s policy:

There will be no entering the lodge for tables/changing/bag storage without an indoor table reservation due to VT State indoor capacity restrictions (75 max per unique space) and have guest contact tracing information. There will be no bag storage for guests inside other than those with an 8:30am table reservation at the BLT.


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## urungus (Nov 5, 2020)

Does this mean you have to reserve a time in the bathroom stall, LOL


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## djd66 (Nov 5, 2020)

urungus said:


> Does this mean you have to reserve a time in the bathroom stall, LOL



I can see it now,... I’d like a reservation for 1 in the men’s room after my 8:30 coffee

If it comes down to it, I will go in the woods, no lodge bathroom for me.


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## abc (Nov 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I think many skiers will be feeling this way as well and just won't bother this season.


There was a point that I was interested in buying a pass. But, after granting me an exception to the renewal deadline, they NEVER get back to me to answer my question. 

Multiple e-mail follow-up when entirely into a black hole. Phone lines were so busy they won't even put me on hold! 

In the meantime, while I wait, the detail started to come in. I'm more and more discouraged with the prospect of the season. I'm biw joining the rank of "won't bother"!

If it's this difficult to even get a response to purchase a pass, do I REALLY want to hand over my hard earned money into this same black hole???


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## chuckstah (Nov 6, 2020)

Killington tickets $165 this season. $130 midweek. Now that's a response to keep people out  No thanks. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## skiur (Nov 6, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> Killington tickets $165 this season. $130 midweek. Now that's a response to keep people out  No thanks.
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



Where did you get that pricing?  I have not heard that.


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## NYDB (Nov 6, 2020)

Looking to defer my IKON at this point due to the Covid blowing up out west and NY's quarantine rules upon re entry.  I don't see that getting any better anytime soon, save a widely distributed vaccine.  

And I doubt K will assault superstar like years past so I doubt there will be a late spring at K.  So I'm not burning an entire years IKON passes on 6 days at Stratton and K.  



I hope we can get some use out of our Magic passes but only time will tell on that front.  We will only go if we can comply with VT quarantine rules.  Maybe we can eek out 10 days there this winter if things work out.  Unless the kids go to full remote, then I suspect we will be able to get up there a bit more.  One thing is for certain, I am not going to put my kids in the position of having to lie, or listen to me lie,  to some mountain staff upon check in.  There are things more important than skiing.


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## mbedle (Nov 6, 2020)

https://www.killington.com/plan-your-trip/tickets-passes/lift-tickets#window-rates


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## drjeff (Nov 6, 2020)

djd66 said:


> I can see it now,... I’d like a reservation for 1 in the men’s room after my 8:30 coffee
> 
> If it comes down to it, I will go in the woods, no lodge bathroom for me.



I'm expecting the restrooms this season in the lodges at Mount Snow to look like the restrooms did at the Mount Snow Golf Club this past Summer, which basically resembled a crime scene with all the yellow "crime scene like" tape blocking off every other urinal and every other stall!! :lol:


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## gittist (Nov 6, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I'm expecting the restrooms this season in the lodges at Mount Snow to look like the restrooms did at the Mount Snow Golf Club this past Summer, which basically resembled a crime scene with all the yellow "crime scene like" tape blocking off every other urinal and every other stall!! :lol:




IF there's anyone skiing, I expect a lot of yellow snow...


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## cdskier (Nov 6, 2020)

mbedle said:


> https://www.killington.com/plan-your-trip/tickets-passes/lift-tickets#window-rates



I'm not the least bit surprised...and would expect the same from many other resorts as well.


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## skiur (Nov 6, 2020)

skiur said:


> Where did you get that pricing?  I have not heard that.



Nevermind, I see it posted on K website now.


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## ss20 (Nov 6, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> And I doubt K will assault superstar like years past so I doubt there will be a late spring at K.  So I'm not burning an entire years IKON passes on 6 days at Stratton and K.



Killington allowing parking reservations up to the second weekend of May as well as having a Mother's Day special as one of their limited ticket deals this year.  

I still believe we'll get some sort of vaccine out to the masses early 2021.  Early enough that March, April, May 2021 are something the ski resorts may want to peruse.  I keep hearing "yes there'll probably be a vaccine but it'll take all 2021 to distribute" which I think is overplayed, at least for the developed world.


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## kingslug (Nov 6, 2020)

Went on Stowe website..They put you on a waitlist to reserve..wait time over 1 hr...will try tomorrow...


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## mbedle (Nov 6, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Went on Stowe website..They put you on a waitlist to reserve..wait time over 1 hr...will try tomorrow...



Just checked, 124,600 people ahead of me.... lol


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## mbedle (Nov 6, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Killington allowing parking reservations up to the second weekend of May as well as having a Mother's Day special as one of their limited ticket deals this year.
> 
> I still believe we'll get some sort of vaccine out to the masses early 2021.  Early enough that March, April, May 2021 are something the ski resorts may want to peruse.  I keep hearing "yes there'll probably be a vaccine but it'll take all 2021 to distribute" which I think is overplayed, at least for the developed world.



Keep in mind that only one of the potential vaccines being developed will require a single dose. All the other ones are going to be a two dose vaccine, like for shingles.


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## drjeff (Nov 6, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Just checked, 124,600 people ahead of me.... lol



Virtual line moved quick for me. I was initially a bit over 10k in line, took less than 30 minutes to get through the virtual line and make my reservations, and the rate at which the line was moving sped up as it went along.


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## JimG. (Nov 6, 2020)

Has anyone heard anything about ORDA's plan for Belleayre, Gore and Whiteface this coming season? I have seen nothing from them about reservations to ski or any reservation system at all. What are they waiting for?

My K pass is already toast, I will get a refund before the 11/20 deadline. I refuse to spend money and then have to sneak around and lie to ski there, or make parking reservations for a season pass (which makes it NOT a season pass). Nor will I fart around with quarantines and COVID tests every time I want to ski. I don't blame K, but VT clearly does not want my business.

I'm feeling the same way about ORDA; I don't trust Cuomo and I think he is waiting to drop the bomb that NYS areas will not open this season, then keep everyone's money. So I am ready to proactively defer it to 21-22 by the 12/1 deadline.

Ha ha it's looking more and more that Plattekill will be my only season pass area this coming season and I'm fine with that. Lazlo speaks my language when it comes to passholders and I bought the parking pass so no reservations to park for me.

But of course if Cuomo shuts down the ORDA areas he will also torpedo skiing in NY for everyone. I'm beginning to realize that this will be a totally lost ski season.


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## kingslug (Nov 6, 2020)

Well these are ready..all sanded and clearcoated..


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## kingslug (Nov 6, 2020)

Well these are ready..all sanded and clear coated


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> I had if done 2 months ago before my back Corizon shot next day
> If was maybe inch in length no pain



They no longer need to go deep up your nose.  I was tested recently and they go in just a little and have you breath for about 30 seconds then put it in a tube.  East peasy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dlague (Nov 6, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I'm expecting the restrooms this season in the lodges at Mount Snow to look like the restrooms did at the Mount Snow Golf Club this past Summer, which basically resembled a crime scene with all the yellow "crime scene like" tape blocking off every other urinal and every other stall!! :lol:



That is kind of crazy!  I have been to a lot of places and have not seen that yet! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ScottySkis (Nov 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Has anyone heard anything about ORDA's plan for Belleayre, Gore and Whiteface this coming season? I have seen nothing from them about reservations to ski or any reservation system at all. What are they waiting for?
> 
> My K pass is already toast, I will get a refund before the 11/20 deadline. I refuse to spend money and then have to sneak around and lie to ski there, or make parking reservations for a season pass (which makes it NOT a season pass). Nor will I fart around with quarantines and COVID tests every time I want to ski. I don't blame K, but VT clearly does not want my business.
> 
> ...



We currently do not have any parking reservations.  Take a looks at our Operations Update Page on our website regarding a bunch of information - from tickets, snowsports, to parking.  https://www.belleayre.com/operational-updates/


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## drjeff (Nov 6, 2020)

dlague said:


> That is kind of crazy!  I have been to a lot of places and have not seen that yet!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I almost took a picture of it.... But didn't want to be THAT guy taking random men's room pictures!! [emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G986U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## kingslug (Nov 6, 2020)

Usually I see that when all the shit is broken..which I have seen in many places that don't know what plumbing is all about.


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## JimG. (Nov 6, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> We currently do not have any parking reservations.  Take a looks at our Operations Update Page on our website regarding a bunch of information - from tickets, snowsports, to parking.  https://www.belleayre.com/operational-updates/



Went online and saw the same thing; frankly I'm amazed but hopeful.


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## Not Sure (Nov 6, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Well these are ready..all sanded and clear coated



Very Nice ...More pics please !


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## abc (Nov 7, 2020)

dlague said:


> That is kind of crazy!  I have been to a lot of places and have not seen that yet!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Clearly you’re NOT living in the northeast! 

That’s been the case in many campground bathrooms. It’s to stop people from standing shoulder to shoulder in the bathroom


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## ALLSKIING (Nov 7, 2020)

dlague said:


> They no longer need to go deep up your nose.  I was tested recently and they go in just a little and have you breath for about 30 seconds then put it in a tube.  East peasy!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally easy I order the home covid pcr test and do it myself. 

Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app


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## kingslug (Nov 7, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Very Nice ...More pics please !



Allowed 2 days to dry and while they have orange peel..they look good enough. Leaving them as is since I'll hopefully be beating them up again


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## chuckstah (Nov 10, 2020)

VT no longer has e country by county travel map. Now everyone is supposed to quarantine. No real difference, unless you're in Aroostook county.


----------



## Edd (Nov 10, 2020)




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## drjeff (Nov 10, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> VT no longer has e country by county travel map. Now everyone is supposed to quarantine. No real difference, unless you're in Aroostook county.


Probably going to yield the same result as many other states, such as my home state of CT, have had with quarantine travel restrictions from others states, in effect all Summer, which was about the same number of license plates from some of those quarantine states, at the beach, as you would typically see in a normal Summer....

And I am still searching for a rational answer as to how if I travel the 130 miles from my house in CT to my condo at Mount Snow, as that's any different in Covid risk than if someone who lives in Burlington, VT, travels the 132 miles to Mount Snow, as my my home County in CT, Windham County(not to be confused with Windham County VT which is actually where my condo is), and Chittenden County in VT, current have the exact same 800+ cases per million rate, and yet there's probably more actual cases in Chittenden County than in my home County in CT as there any extra 50k population in Chittenden County as in my home county in CT.

Even though we're comparing different colored apples, we're still comparing apples


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## kingslug (Nov 10, 2020)

People are going to go skiing..almost no one will be taking a week off from work to quarantine to go for a weekend of skiing..its simply not possible. Just look at how many people are signing up for reservations...yup..theyre all going to quarantine for a week every time they go skiing...yup...


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I am still searching for a rational answer as to how if I travel the 130 miles from my house in CT to my condo at Mount Snow, as *that's any different in Covid risk *than if someone who lives in Burlington, VT, travels the 132 miles to Mount Snow,



Oh, it is a VASTLY different Covid risk, it's just that the "risk" via the former is merely medical, whereas the risk via the latter is both medical AND political.


----------



## Edd (Nov 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, it is a VASTLY different Covid risk, it's just that the "risk" via the former is merely medical, whereas the risk via the latter is both medical AND political.


Must bother you that Trump politicized it so thoroughly. Kind of fucked him in the end.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, it is a VASTLY different Covid risk, it's just that the "risk" via the former is merely medical, whereas the risk via the latter is both medical AND political.




Oh I fully get that!

Heck, the political side in my own profession is currently try and save face now that some actual, concrete data, has come out showing that the incidence of spread within my profession, and in particular dental hygienists, was less than 0.25% (and that's incidence of positive test, not fatalities, and the study flat out cited that there was no way to be 100% certain that the infection actually happened while at work), and the hygienists, and many aligned politicians were basically convinced they were all going to die by going back to work, and especially if they went back to work while the extra $600 of unemployment weekly, was still on the table 

Science is blind, unless of course it can be politicized in a way to either negatively effect one's political opponents, or possible allow some of one's political allies to profit greatly from it....


----------



## cdskier (Nov 10, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> VT no longer has e country by county travel map. Now everyone is supposed to quarantine. No real difference, unless you're in Aroostook county.



And now all but 2 VT counties would have qualified for their own quarantine rules...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2020)

Edd said:


> Must bother you that *Trump politicized it so thoroughly*. Kind of fucked him in the end.



Wow.  You must be one rabid ideologue if you dont think both parties politicized it, and bonus points for not realizing the left & the left-wing media politicized it far more!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> *VT no longer has e country by county travel map.*





cdskier said:


> * now all but 2 VT counties would have qualified for their own quarantine rules*...



Which is precisely why, _"VT no longer has a country by county travel map"._

Niccolo Machiavell is smiling from his grave.


----------



## Edd (Nov 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow.  You must be one rabid ideologue if you dont think both parties politicized it, and bonus points for not realizing the left & the left-wing media politicized it far more!


“Rabid ideologue”? You're hitting the gas pedal fast.


----------



## farlep99 (Nov 10, 2020)

drjeff said:


> And I am still searching for a rational answer as to how if I travel the 130 miles from my house in CT to my condo at Mount Snow, as that's any different in Covid risk than if someone who lives in Burlington, VT, travels the 132 miles to Mount Snow, as my my home County in CT,


For those wondering about this the answer is because of contact tracing.  The exemption on VT counties that are above the state threshold comes down to it being far more complicated to perform effective contact tracing on those residing out of state than those who remain in state.  The Dept of Health doesn't have the resources to contact trace in CT, NY, NH, MA, ME, RI, PA, etc.  The more travel across multiple states that happens, the harder it will be for the state to contain any outbreaks via contact tracing.


----------



## Nick (Nov 10, 2020)




----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 10, 2020)

farlep99 said:


> For those wondering about this *the answer is because of contact tracing.  The exemption on VT counties that are above the state threshold comes down to it being far more complicated to perform effective contact tracing on those residing out of state *than those who remain in state.



I'll be dambed.  You actually believe this, huh?

Now Machiavell is gloating from his grave.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 10, 2020)

farlep99 said:


> For those wondering about this the answer is because of contact tracing.  The exemption on VT counties that are above the state threshold comes down to it being far more complicated to perform effective contact tracing on those residing out of state than those who remain in state.  The Dept of Health doesn't have the resources to contact trace in CT, NY, NH, MA, ME, RI, PA, etc.  The more travel across multiple states that happens, the harder it will be for the state to contain any outbreaks via contact tracing.




And isn't it amazing how no state DPH's actually can pick up the phone and call another state? I mean those phone things aren't as reliable as the good 'ol pony express mail delivery system, but I could see where they may someday have some potential.

Just waiting for folks, who drank all of the "COVID Kool-aid" to settle down for a minute, take a deep breath, and actually look at the risk factors, and in particular the risk factors in various age demographics and co-morbidities, and then think about if the mass, "one size fits all" approach that has been taken, is actually the most effective way, especially when one factors in other things such as the economic impacts as well as the psychological impacts going on as well.

COVID certainly can be a life threatening disease for some, I don't dispute or question that at all. People should be careful with how they manage their personal spaces while in public, and hand and face hygiene. I don't dispute that at all. One though needs to also critically think if the measures taken thus far, with essentially shutting down the various states at times for all, is actually the most effective approach to this? Again my personal perspective, as someone who has basically been working non stop, in a profession deemed high risk with close proximity to the oral cavity and aerosol spray generation, and really haven't been wearing much more PPE than I had been for the last 25 years or so, and done so, not just myself, but my staff as well, SAFELY, really gets one thinking about if the approaches the various state governments have been taking, are actually the most effective, especially when you also have to consider the economic and psychologic effects that in reality have affected more than COVID itself has


----------



## farlep99 (Nov 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'll be dambed. You actually believe this, huh?
> 
> Now Machiavell is gloating from his grave.


TOTALLY forgot you know everything.  My bad for commenting...


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## Smellytele (Nov 10, 2020)

farlep99 said:


> For those wondering about this the answer is because of contact tracing.  The exemption on VT counties that are above the state threshold comes down to it being far more complicated to perform effective contact tracing on those residing out of state than those who remain in state.  The Dept of Health doesn't have the resources to contact trace in CT, NY, NH, MA, ME, RI, PA, etc.  The more travel across multiple states that happens, the harder it will be for the state to contain any outbreaks via contact tracing.


Oh so it is about keeping citizens of other states healthy not about keeping vt’ers healthy.


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## 1dog (Nov 10, 2020)

It's more about freedom in my view. If people are getting sick, it's not filling up hospitals - at least in VT - CDC says 11 are in hospitals in the state.  Keeping people healthy is keeping them informed. Then let them make choices. People choose to smoke, drink to excess, and drive on slick roads at 90 MPH. What's really going to help the majority of citizens is letting them get back to work and play.  Those with underlying conditions should stay out of the public. Risk is not an option in life, it's a fact of life. To believe a government ( left, right, fence-sitting moderates) can actually make those choices for the populace is nonsensical. Put the information out there, let the public make informed choices. Live and let ski.  Or, what Dr. Jeff states. . . .


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## ss20 (Nov 10, 2020)

drjeff said:


> And isn't it amazing how no state DPH's actually can pick up the phone and call another state? I mean those phone things aren't as reliable as the good 'ol pony express mail delivery system, but I could see where they may someday have some potential.
> 
> Just waiting for folks, who drank all of the "COVID Kool-aid" to settle down for a minute, take a deep breath, and actually look at the risk factors, and in particular the risk factors in various age demographics and co-morbidities, and then think about if the mass, "one size fits all" approach that has been taken, is actually the most effective way, especially when one factors in other things such as the economic impacts as well as the psychological impacts going on as well.
> 
> COVID certainly can be a life threatening disease for some, I don't dispute or question that at all. People should be careful with how they manage their personal spaces while in public, and hand and face hygiene. I don't dispute that at all. One though needs to also critically think if the measures taken thus far, with essentially shutting down the various states at times for all, is actually the most effective approach to this? Again my personal perspective, as someone who has basically been working non stop, in a profession deemed high risk with close proximity to the oral cavity and aerosol spray generation, and really haven't been wearing much more PPE than I had been for the last 25 years or so, and done so, not just myself, but my staff as well, SAFELY, really gets one thinking about if the approaches the various state governments have been taking, are actually the most effective, especially when you also have to consider the economic and psychologic effects that in reality have affected more than COVID itself has



Kudos to you.  Summed up my thoughts exactly.  Except I would've said it with a lot more yelling and rhetoric and bs.  Hence you being one of the most respected members of this board (and me.....not so much )


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## kingslug (Nov 10, 2020)

Just walk around NYC..you'll see the economic effect. Its going to take years to get back to ..well not normal, but better. Some industries will be destroyed for a long time. 
But I can't sit here and point fingers at government officials. This was an event the world hasn't seen in 100 years..no playbook to go by.


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## drjeff (Nov 10, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Kudos to you.  Summed up my thoughts exactly.  Except I would've said it with a lot more yelling and rhetoric and bs.  Hence you being one of the most respected members of this board (and me.....not so much )



I thought I was just the undisputed AZ king of the run on sentence reply!!


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## ss20 (Nov 10, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Just walk around NYC..you'll see the economic effect. Its going to take years to get back to ..well not normal, but better. Some industries will be destroyed for a long time.
> But I can't sit here and point fingers at government officials. This was an event the world hasn't seen in 100 years..no playbook to go by.



I agree.  Lots of pointed fingers.  Everyone has been wrong at some point about this virus.  My personal favorites are the Bill Gates Foundation model that showed Covoid dying out halfway through this summer, and people (myself included) who were duped into thinking this would be a 6-8 week affair.  

Oh March....I I remember on the last day of my ski season, a Thursday at Killington before the world ended, they had Lysol and Bleach stationed in the Skyeship lodge for people's use as they wanted.  I picked one up and told my ski buddy, "Hey, we should take these home, I bet we could get $50 for them!" to which we laughed and a few guys around us laughed.  We had no idea shit was hitting the fan at that point.  Got home that night and read a bunch of Covid headlines, then I knew we were f'd when the fact that the stock market had its biggest one day loss ever was just an after-thought.


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## kingslug (Nov 10, 2020)

I was in Park City..didn't even ski the last day I was so bummed out. I knew something big was up and we where in for it.  One of the first things I did..hit the local gun store..what a shitshow. I'm hoping things calm down a bit now that the election is ...over?


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## gittist (Nov 10, 2020)

The Vermonters are going to be lonely skiing all by themselves. I just looked at the https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel map and there are are only two counties outside of Vermont that can legally go there without quarantine, Aroostook County in Maine and one in New York.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 10, 2020)

gittist said:


> The Vermonters are going to be lonely skiing all by themselves. I just looked at the https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel map and there are are only two counties outside of Vermont that can legally go there without quarantine, Aroostook County in Maine and one in New York.


Turns out they “banned” travel for all counties outside Vermont today, but in reality it doesn’t mean shit. People are going to come anyway and without the business, ski area’s frankly won’t be able to survive. Hopefully people remain vigilant and wear masks and follow safety guidelines.


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## SLyardsale (Nov 10, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> Turns out they “banned” travel for all counties outside Vermont today, but in reality it doesn’t mean shit. People are going to come anyway and without the business, ski area’s frankly won’t be able to survive. Hopefully people remain vigilant and wear masks and follow safety guidelines.


People all around me - every where I go have already been wearing masks since late spring / early summer.  Masks have nothing to do with the numbers at this point.  Go ahead - mandate masks - it's already done.  It's a virus. A virus is contagious.  The question is, should we re-ruin the recovering economy  with lockdowns.  Raise your hand if you want lock downs.  If you don't want lockdowns, you already probably understand that the virus will spread and for now - it appears that in most areas - we have hospital capacity to absorb it.  That was the whole strategy at the outset.  And guess what - as we sit here today, it mainly worked.


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## JimG. (Nov 10, 2020)

Nick said:


>


Nice to see you posting again Nick lol


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## JimG. (Nov 10, 2020)

SLyardsale said:


> People all around me - every where I go have already been wearing masks since late spring / early summer.  Masks have nothing to do with the numbers at this point.  Go ahead - mandate masks - it's already done.  It's a virus. A virus is contagious.  The question is, should we re-ruin the recovering economy  with lockdowns.  Raise your hand if you want lock downs.  If you don't want lockdowns, you already probably understand that the virus will spread and for now - it appears that in most areas - we have hospital capacity to absorb it.  That was the whole strategy at the outset.  And guess what - as we sit here today, it mainly worked.


This morning I commented to my wife how grateful people should be that the overall strategy worked albeit maybe delayed. And the future shows promise.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 11, 2020)

It's official; Captain Obvious has spoken. 









						CDC now says wearing a mask protects the wearer, too
					

Dr. Anthony Fauci said wearing a mask is "a two-way street" during an interview with MSNBC's Andrea Miller. Here's how masks can protect the wearer, too.




					www.cnbc.com


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## drjeff (Nov 11, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's official; Captain Obvious has spoken.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mean to tell me that both inhaling and exhaling through the same fabric will have the same effect regardless of which direction the air is moving across that fabric? 

No way!!


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## Not Sure (Nov 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This morning I commented to my wife how grateful people should be that the overall strategy worked albeit maybe delayed. And the future shows promise.





			https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/biden-covid-advisor-says-us-lockdown-of-4-to-6-weeks-could-control-pandemic-and-revive-economy.html


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## machski (Nov 12, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/biden-covid-advisor-says-us-lockdown-of-4-to-6-weeks-could-control-pandemic-and-revive-economy.html


As usual by these types, I don't think he has a clue what his "economic package" for those 4 to 6 weeks would actually cost.  It would make the $5 trillion cares package look like chump change.  What's his plan to brace to stock market during this month and a half?


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2020)

Wonder how VT will respond when resorts open and they are flooded with NH,NY,CT,NJ,MA people.


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## drjeff (Nov 12, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Wonder how VT will respond when resorts open and they are flooded with NH,NY,CT,NJ,MA people.



Will they choose to make an "example" out of some (and risk a potential legal challenge) or will they take a semi blind eye to things and see, if like during the Summer when travel restrictions weren't exactly being followed, if the new case rates don't change very much over what they already are?

That will be the question, that many, including numerous small business owners in VT who depend on out of state travelers for a sizable amount of their revenues, will be waiting to find out?


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## NYDB (Nov 12, 2020)

I am genuinely curious here.  A question for the people who will ignore the VT quarantine rules for whatever reason.    It seems like most of you justify this by saying all you will be doing is driving up, keeping to yourselves in your house/condo, going to ski, remaining outside and social distancing.  Then returning to your house/condo where you have brought up food and drink with you from home.    

Exactly how are you supporting VT small business owners in this scenario?   Gas Stations?  Do you plan on going out to eat?  Walking around country stores?  Hitting the Bars?  exactly which small businesses are you going to support and how will you do it?


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## abc (Nov 12, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Exactly how are you supporting VT small business owners in this scenario?   Gas Stations?  Do you plan on going out to eat?  Walking around country stores?  Hitting the Bars?  exactly which small businesses are you going to support and how will you do it?


It maybe two different group of people you're lumping together:

Those who suggest VT business needs tourist support. They probably want the tourist whether they quarantine or not.

Then there're those who just want to ski. They plan to be as self-sufficient as they can be. They won't be "supporting VT business" (except perhaps buying gas!)

Those are 2 different group of people. Vermonters need to sort out which they want (or NOT WANT). As you pointed out, you can't get BOTH, you need to choose one over the other.


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## drjeff (Nov 12, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> I am genuinely curious here.  A question for the people who will ignore the VT quarantine rules for whatever reason.    It seems like most of you justify this by saying all you will be doing is driving up, keeping to yourselves in your house/condo, going to ski, remaining outside and social distancing.  Then returning to your house/condo where you have brought up food and drink with you from home.
> 
> Exactly how are you supporting VT small business owners in this scenario?   Gas Stations?  Do you plan on going out to eat?  Walking around country stores?  Hitting the Bars?  exactly which small businesses are you going to support and how will you do it?



My wife and I will often do contactless pickup from a local grocery store and a few local restaurants when we've been up at our condo since the shutdown began in March. So we try and support the local economy in the best, all the while safest, way that we can.

The gas station that I have used for year not too far from Mount Snow has always been fully self served, and if the mechanics tied into the shop where the gas pumps are located aren't there, it's literally just you, your car, and the gas pump, which given that the majority of the time it's after 5PM when I'm rolling into town on my way up when I top my tank off, that is a safe transaction for sure


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## Tin (Nov 12, 2020)

1dog said:


> It's more about freedom in my view. If people are getting sick, it's not filling up hospitals - at least in VT - CDC says 11 are in hospitals in the state.



Yes, and rank 48/49th in ICU beds per 1,000 people and currently have the second highest Covid-19 effective reproduction rate in the country (second only to Maine), it's climbing fast and going to continue doing so. It's all about being proactive to avoid overwhelming what little intensive care medical system they have. Two more weeks of that trend and I wouldn't be surprised if they did another "stay at home."


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 12, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/biden-covid-advisor-says-us-lockdown-of-4-to-6-weeks-could-control-pandemic-and-revive-economy.html


I would maybe be on board with this is if, when over, the federal government stepped in and stripped states of their power to set travel requirements.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 12, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> I am genuinely curious here.  A question for the people who will ignore the VT quarantine rules for whatever reason.    It seems like most of you justify this by saying all you will be doing is driving up, keeping to yourselves in your house/condo, going to ski, remaining outside and social distancing.  Then returning to your house/condo where you have brought up food and drink with you from home.
> 
> Exactly how are you supporting VT small business owners in this scenario?   Gas Stations?  Do you plan on going out to eat?  Walking around country stores?  Hitting the Bars?  exactly which small businesses are you going to support and how will you do it?


I'm not super interested in supporting local businesses any more (including ski areas, actually -- I'm not planning on lying on any forms). Over the last years I've spent a lot of money on local businesses in the Valley. Now we've been made to feel unwelcome since this started, I've adapted to bringing everything up (except for needing to go to the hardware store to buy mouse traps). It was kind of annoying at first, but now that I'm used to it I plan on continuing even after this is all over. I found that I don't really miss the "Vermont shit" -- the crappy arts and crafts, the restaurants who haven't changed their menus in five years, the overhopped beers, etc....  The MRV is a naturally beautiful place and I'm happy to just keep to myself.


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2020)

And..if wearing a mask is supposed to prevent spreading it..then why ban people? If I go to the store and wear a mask..who am I spreading it to?
All..very confusing.


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## flakeydog (Nov 12, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Wonder how VT will respond when resorts open and they are flooded with NH,NY,CT,NJ,MA people.


That's a good question because given where most of the country is right now, it will probably happen.  
There will be 3 main groups
 1) the self-justifying crew that are "super-careful" and know better than the rest of us
 2) people that just don't give a crap and will come anyway, "What's the big deal? Rules are for suckers"
 3) those that feel VT "owes" them something followed up by patronizing threats to throw their money around in some other state but will grace us with their presence anyway.

Potential result- cases surge here and _everything_ shuts down ruining it for everyone.  After all, if I can't come to Vermont and ski, no one should.

Vermont did not cause this and the last thing we want to do is keep our visitors out.  We are not idiots.  We know it is causing great harm to our economy but it pales in comparison to what it will be like if we have to totally shut down again.  Believe it or, some of us live here, we work here, have our kids in school here.  It is no accident that cases, hospitalizations and mortality is low here.  We are trying to keep it that way despite your vacation plans.


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## Jully (Nov 12, 2020)

kingslug said:


> And..if wearing a mask is supposed to prevent spreading it..then why ban people? If I go to the store and wear a mask..who am I spreading it to?
> All..very confusing.


If airbags and seatbelts prevent you from dying in a car crash, why have speed limits?


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## Smellytele (Nov 12, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> That's a good question because given where most of the country is right now, it will probably happen.
> There will be 3 main groups
> 1) the self-justifying crew that are "super-careful" and know better than the rest of us
> 2) people that just don't give a crap and will come anyway, "What's the big deal? Rules are for suckers"
> ...


Great post.


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## tumbler (Nov 12, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> That's a good question because given where most of the country is right now, it will probably happen.
> There will be 3 main groups
> 1) the self-justifying crew that are "super-careful" and know better than the rest of us
> 2) people that just don't give a crap and will come anyway, "What's the big deal? Rules are for suckers"
> ...


How do you feel about people that own property there and pay taxes?


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2020)

Airbags and seatbelts do not prevent you from dying..they make it less likely at certain speed limits. Not an apples to apples comparison. Ever see a car hit the wall at 90mph....


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 12, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Vermont did not cause this and the last thing we want to do is keep our visitors out.  We are not idiots.  We know* it is causing great harm to our economy but it pales in comparison to what it will be like if we have to totally shut down again.  *Believe it or, some of us live here, we work here, have our kids in school here.  It is no accident that cases, hospitalizations and mortality is low here.  We are trying to keep it that way despite your vacation plans.



Two things:

1) You didn't have to _"totally shut down"_ in the first place.  We know this via the states which didnt.

2) Correlation does not imply causation.  Vermont's "rules" did not keep Vermont initially safer any more than Vermont's "rules" are now making Vermont more dangerous.  Frankly, any Vermonter who genuinely thought the reason their COVID19 was lower than most states was due to "rules" should have likely figured out that wasnt the case within the last week or so.


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## abc (Nov 12, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Airbags and seatbelts do not prevent you from dying..they make it less likely at certain speed limits.


Mask doesn't prevent you from catching the virus. They makes it less likely at certain conditions. 



> Not an apples to apples comparison.


No, it is not. It's just apples and Macintosh .


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2020)

Like quarantining for a week..then you go out and catch it..but your good to go..right?......
vaccine is the only solution..


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## abc (Nov 12, 2020)

kingslug said:


> vaccine is the only solution..


Vaccine is a solution. The rest (mask, quarantine...) are just mitigations. 

The "solution" isn't available yet. The mitigations can be use in the meantime.


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## flakeydog (Nov 12, 2020)

tumbler said:


> How do you feel about people that own property there and pay taxes?


also a good question-

Probably the same way I feel about my own taxes when schools go from in-person/hybrid to all remote when increasing cases close the schools, again.
Probably the way a local business owner feels when they have worked hard to claw back a portion of their business only to have to close down because of increasing cases, again.
Probably the way I feel not being able to travel see friends and family in other states and them not being able to come here.
Probably the way I would feel that given the fact we had a somewhat successful Fall Sports season up here to have our winter sports season cancelled because of increasing cases, like last spring.

So yeah, it sucks all the way around.  Your condo will still be here next year and the year after.  A missed semester of school, another lost season of sports, not seeing family for another 6 months- when it's gone, it's gone. No amount of compensation will replace that.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 12, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> That's a good question because given where most of the country is right now, it will probably happen.
> There will be 3 main groups
> 1) the self-justifying crew that are "super-careful" and know better than the rest of us
> 2) people that just don't give a crap and will come anyway, "What's the big deal? Rules are for suckers"
> ...


Should be a #4  People who were extremely cautious for the first several months are now tired of everything.  Maybe you can put that part of #2 but these people actually cared before. If you had put a percentage between 1 thru 4.  I would say 75% of America would be in #4, they are tired of this and are really pissed off that government can shut down small buisness and tell them how to run their lives.  If government tried to shut down the economy again there will be a rebellion from the american people starting with Small Business.  Not to mention all the class action lawsuits.  The only reason Governor Cuomo reopened restaurants was the building class action lawsuits against the state.


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## ne_skier (Nov 12, 2020)

I feel like a lot of the reason people are pissed about the travel regulations is because they're forced to pay property taxes on property that is either illegal or incredibly complex to access. They can go ahead and make whatever (in some cases) silly requirements they want, but they should address that if they want any hope at stopping people from coming up without shutting down skiing.


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## Jully (Nov 12, 2020)

ne_skier said:


> I feel like a lot of the reason people are pissed about the travel regulations is because they're forced to pay property taxes on property that is either illegal or incredibly complex to access. They can go ahead and make whatever (in some cases) silly requirements they want, but they should address that if they want any hope at stopping people from coming up without shutting down skiing.


Purely hypothetical as it would absolutely never happen, but would the folks with second homes have their frustration at all ameliorated by a partial tax refund of their second home property taxes?


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## 1dog (Nov 12, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Should be a #4  People who were extremely cautious for the first several months are now tired of everything.  Maybe you can put that part of #2 but these people actually cared before. If you had put a percentage between 1 thru 4.  I would say 75% of America would be in #4, they are tired of this and are really pissed off that government can shut down small buisness and tell them how to run their lives.  If government tried to shut down the economy again there will be a rebellion from the american people starting with Small Business.  Not to mention all the class action lawsuits.  The only reason Governor Cuomo reopened restaurants was the building class action lawsuits against the state.


Well stated.


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2020)

And now they have to close at 10PM. That screws up the bar business. But I guess they feel that after 10PM ..shit happens?


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## snoseek (Nov 12, 2020)

kingslug said:


> And now they have to close at 10PM. That screws up the bar business. But I guess they feel that after 10PM ..shit happens?


The few times I've let my guard down through all this involved being somewhat shitfaced. Bars need to be looked at extra hard.


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## kingslug (Nov 12, 2020)

Yup..but its usually after midnight. We'll see how it goes but I fear further lockdowns at this point. So many businesses are gone for good. 
And as far as owning second homes in VT..yup..we pay property taxes. But as I've said before..there is no play book for this one.


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## Zermatt (Nov 12, 2020)

No mentions that VT skiing is not viable with only Vermonters. Ski areas are depending on the rules being broken.

Making snow is incredibly expensive. It is such a delicate balance now. They have to make snow, but it could all go to waste.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 12, 2020)

billo said:


> *VT skiing is not viable with only Vermonters. Ski areas are depending on the rules being broken.*



This is the part that shouldn't be spoken out loud.

On its' face, State of Vermont's _"mandatory guidance for ski areas"_ are patently absurd in this context, and they obviously know it.  It makes no sense financially, and    if they were literally going to follow State of Vermont's guidance & expect everyone else to follow it, they simply wouldn't open this year.

This is the ski industry & government's version of, _The Emperor Wears No Clothes_.



			https://accd.vermont.gov/sites/accdnew/files/documents/Vermont%20Ski%20Resort%20COVID-19%20Winter%20Operations%20Guidance%20-%202020-11-03.pdf


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## cdskier (Nov 12, 2020)

billo said:


> No mentions that VT skiing is not viable with only Vermonters. Ski areas are depending on the rules being broken.
> 
> Making snow is incredibly expensive. It is such a delicate balance now. They have to make snow, but it could all go to waste.


100% agree. I've repeatedly said that any VTers that think a "locals only" skiing option is actually viable for any major resort are delusional. If there was actually strict compliance with the rules, most of your passes that were sold would have to be refunded/deferred. No way ski resorts operate anywhere close to normally if you suddenly force their hand into giving back the majority of their pass revenue. (And before someone says that allowing pass-holders to defer the values of their passes to next season would still mean the resorts have the money now...think about it. Is a resort going to spend that "deferred pass-holder" money on ops this year when a fraction of their clientele would be on the mountain or are they going to simply hold onto that money and spend it next year when all those "deferred" pass-holders are back?)


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## ss20 (Nov 12, 2020)

Bridger Bowl, MT giving some interesting insight....

Skiing by Numbers, Bridger Bowl 2020

 Opening with approximately 1,500 reservation spots to allow staff and guests to adjust to new procedures
 Increase to approximately 3,000 as quickly as feasible
 80% of reservations are for pass holders


 20% of reservations are for day tickets and other users
 2,500 was the average daily skier visit from 2019-2020



Same thing that's been said since the day this crap was announced.  And same thing that's been shown early on in these reservations.  Don't ski weekends.  Buy a pass.


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## ss20 (Nov 13, 2020)

Tremblant also pushing back opening to November 27th....another Alterra resort.  That makes Solitude (who hasn't even started making snow), Winter Park, and Tremblant all having their openings delayed.

Wasn't there some crazy rumor about Alterra barely making it through the summer?  Perhaps that had more truth to it than we gave it credit to.


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## Slidebrook87 (Nov 13, 2020)

I’m still pretty confident that Sugarbush can open on the 21st. They seem to have a really good window for snowmaking starting the 14th and staying consistent after the 16th. Yes, it doesn’t give much time, but it’s still a possibility. It also looks like there’s some natural coming their way. I’m not sure about Killington though since they seem to be fixated on top to bottom skiing on opening day. Not sure how they’ll be able to do that with such a short snowmaking window.


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## mbedle (Nov 13, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> That's a good question because given where most of the country is right now, it will probably happen.
> There will be 3 main groups
> 1) the self-justifying crew that are "super-careful" and know better than the rest of us
> 2) people that just don't give a crap and will come anyway, "What's the big deal? Rules are for suckers"
> ...


I liked to add that there are some of us that can and will quarantine. Fortunate enough here to work at home and live alone.


----------



## skimagic (Nov 13, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I liked to add that there are some of us that can and will quarantine. Fortunate enough here to work at home and live alone.


Exactly,  this is also my plan  just to get a few visits in VT this season.  

The lodging association is pissed off.








						Lodging businesses: State’s quarantine announcement sends wrong message
					

After a spate of cancellations, inns and B&Bs want the state to make clear that people can still visit Vermont.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## kingslug (Nov 13, 2020)

Have you read what Biden's advisors are saying about a 4 to 6 week lockdown. OY


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I liked to add that there are some of us that can and will quarantine. Fortunate enough here to work at home and live alone.


While I belong to the group that can fully self quarantine, I’m not going to ski in Vermont unless...

*The state somehow enforce the restrictions so the slopes are super empty!*

I’m not going to bother with the hassle of skiing in Vermont if it‘s just the usual shit show of crowds plus lines. Add the lines to bathroom on top of that? No thanks.

It’s of course easy for me to say that since I haven’t bought a pass, so have no financial stake for skipping this season altogether.
If I were to ski occasionally, it would be to destination with less travel hassle.

What a super empty slope means for mountains, is not my concern. That’s for Vermonters to figure out. I got the impression that’s exactly what they want, empty slopes and no Covid-19. And they’re willing to accept the financial impact of that. Good for them.


----------



## tumbler (Nov 13, 2020)

It wouldn't surprise me to see early season snowmaking dramatically cut back or eliminated.  Going to open on natural or 1 or 2 manmade trails and that's it.  If they open.  Too much risk right now, they need to preserve every dollar they have.  The state better start preparing a bail out package.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 13, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’m still pretty confident that Sugarbush can open on the 21st. They seem to have a really good window for snowmaking starting the 14th and staying consistent after the 16th. Yes, it doesn’t give much time, but it’s still a possibility. It also looks like there’s some natural coming their way. I’m not sure about Killington though since they seem to be fixated on top to bottom skiing on opening day. Not sure how they’ll be able to do that with such a short snowmaking window.


K has substantially more snowmaking fire-power than SB does at Lincoln Peak, yet you're confident that SB can open but not sure about K? Don't forget that the term "Top to bottom" at K is a bit misleading. They're talking about T2B at individual peaks. A T2B route at Snowden peak is about 100' less vertical than Sugarbush's Valley House side route that they plan to open first. A T2B route off K peak if they want to use the gondola is only ~1600' of vertical. K also has an elevation advantage. The terrain they would target first has an elevation of ~2500' at the base of K/Snowden whereas SB's base at LP is ~1600' and the top of VH is only around the 2800' mark.

If SB can open (requires a route off VH and GH), then I'm sure K will be able to hit their mark as well.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 13, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Have you read what Biden's advisors are saying about a 4 to 6 week lockdown. OY



I irony of it, especially is if he does as he says and rejoins the World Health Organization, is that the WHO came out 2 or 3 weeks ago and explicitly stated that they are now against any more lockdowns, since that for the majority of people, the indirect side effects from a lock down (financial and psychological) are of far greater problem for the majority than the disease process itself


----------



## skiur (Nov 13, 2020)

Slidebrook87 said:


> I’m still pretty confident that Sugarbush can open on the 21st. They seem to have a really good window for snowmaking starting the 14th and staying consistent after the 16th. Yes, it doesn’t give much time, but it’s still a possibility. It also looks like there’s some natural coming their way. I’m not sure about Killington though since they seem to be fixated on top to bottom skiing on opening day. Not sure how they’ll be able to do that with such a short snowmaking window.



Before the stairway (which is like 7 years now) K would blow great northern down to bunnybuster and open top to bottom and did that in two days of snowmaking.  Not saying they will do that, just saying they could.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

Word on the street is that Governor Scott will announce today that bars and restaurants must close.  He is also going to announce curtailment of sports activities.  I suspect that school sports will be cancelled.  I am not sure if he will announce any new restrictions for skiing.


----------



## machski (Nov 13, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I irony of it, especially is if he does as he says and rejoins the World Health Organization, is that the WHO came out 2 or 3 weeks ago and explicitly stated that they are now against any more lockdowns, since that for the majority of people, the indirect side effects from a lock down (financial and psychological) are of far greater problem for the majority than the disease process itself


They had Osterholm walking that lockdown idea back yesterday and today.  Claims that was an earlier report he authored and has never advised Biden as such.  Yeah, ok.

With that said, I have seen some early pandemic interviews with Osterholm, he seemed more level headed and matter of fact than Fauci then.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2020)

abc said:


> What a super empty slope means for mountains, is not my concern. That’s for Vermonters to figure out. I got the impression that’s exactly what they want, *empty slopes and no Covid-19*. And they’re willing to accept the financial impact of that. Good for them.



The former will not prevent the latter anymore than not having skiing in November has not kept COVID19 out of Vermont.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 13, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that Governor Scott will announce today that bars and restaurants must close.  He is also going to announce curtailment of sports activities.  I suspect that school sports will be cancelled.  I am not sure if he will announce any new restrictions for skiing.



Any other state in the country have bars and restaurants back to takeout only?  None that I know of.  And it's because Vermont is....by far...the least Covid-inflicted state in the country.  

I feel like you're almost asking your population to break the rules at that point.  Why penalize the people who are doing the best job?  Hey if the bars close NY, MA, and NH have their bars and restaurants open, what's stopping VT people from going there?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I irony of it, especially is if he does as he says and rejoins the World Health Organization, is that the WHO came out 2 or 3 weeks ago and explicitly stated that they are now against any more lockdowns, since that for the majority of people, the indirect side effects from a lock down (financial and psychological) are of far greater problem for the majority than the disease process itself


In late October when polls showed the majority of Americans being against a national lockdown, Biden specifically tweeted that he would not lockdown the country.   Hopefully he ignores the advisor & goes with that.


----------



## mister moose (Nov 13, 2020)

machski said:


> They had Osterholm walking that lockdown idea back yesterday and today.  Claims that was an earlier report he authored and has never advised Biden as such.  Yeah, ok.
> 
> With that said, I have seen some early pandemic interviews with Osterholm, he seemed more level headed and matter of fact than Fauci then.


Biden and others have strongly advocated they would "follow the science" without addressing the common instance of many scientists not being in agreement.


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Biden and others have strongly advocated they would "follow the science" without addressing the common instance of many scientists not being in agreement.


What "common instance" of "MANY" scientists not being in agreement? Example please? 

(Just one or two crackpot of "scientist" whose specialty are not even in virology disagree isn't the equivalent of "many scientists not being in agreement")


----------



## drjeff (Nov 13, 2020)

abc said:


> What "common instance" of "MANY" scientists not being in agreement? Example please?
> 
> (Just one or two crackpot of "scientist" whose specialty are not even in virology disagree isn't the equivalent of "many scientists not being in agreement")



Not all relevant scientists is this situation are infectious disease and/or virologists. Economists are scientists as are psychologists.

This is a disease that certainly has effects that many are suffering from that have never, nor possibly will ever, contract(ed) COVID-19.  And one simply can't think in this case that the only "scientists" who have relevance to the guidance to manage this crisis, have degrees in infectious disease related categories. This to some degree, needs to be a team approach to determine the "best" course of action for not just those who contract the disease, but the majority of the population who won't, but need to be a part of the ways to get through it


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 13, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Biden and others have strongly advocated they would "follow the science" without addressing the common instance of many scientists not being in agreement.


Ef anybody who says follow the science. Last spring the science said beaches in NY could open but swimming was not allowed yet in CA the science said swimming was ok but no beaches.

THERE WILL NEVER BE A NATIONAL LOCKDOWN! Anybody who thinks that is possible is likely from a large city, young and does not understand the government structure of our federation of independent states.


----------



## Teleskier (Nov 13, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I liked to add that there are some of us that can and will quarantine. Fortunate enough here to work at home and live alone.



Hear! Hear! I think this is the case for more people (especially in rural locations) than people realize, not just living alone but who are quarantined as a household and can follow the VT guidelines... remember back in March when people stayed home for 25-days at a time?


----------



## cdskier (Nov 13, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that Governor Scott will announce today that bars and restaurants must close.  He is also going to announce curtailment of sports activities.  I suspect that school sports will be cancelled.  I am not sure if he will announce any new restrictions for skiing.



Word on the street was mostly right. He did announce that bars and clubs must close, although is letting restaurants stay open for inside service until 10PM.

He also banned multi-family gatherings whether they are inside or outside in public or in private...


----------



## skithetrees (Nov 13, 2020)

Teleskier said:


> Hear! Hear! I think this is the case for more people (especially in rural locations) than people realize, not just living alone but who are quarantined as a household and can follow the VT guidelines... remember back in March when people stayed home for 25-days at a time?



True, but if you have kids a 14 day true quarantine is virtually impossible right now. Also, while many of us can work from home, what percentage of the skiing population can/does? When you find the intersection of the work from home and the no kids in school (or playing with any friends) group, I bet that population is quite small.  On top of that, I bet that group is probably one that isn’t spending a ton of money on the mountain anyway. Families with kids pay the bills and keep the lights on at most mountains.


----------



## NYDB (Nov 13, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Word on the street was mostly right. He did announce that bars and clubs must close, although is letting restaurants stay open for inside service until 10PM.
> 
> He also banned multi-family gatherings whether they are inside or outside in public or in private...


How does that reconcile with Ski Resorts ability to operate.  Does not seem to be trending well at present


----------



## cdskier (Nov 13, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> How does that reconcile with Ski Resorts ability to operate.  Does not seem to be trending well at present



I'm wondering the same thing. I haven't seen much in the way of details on that part of his announcement today.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Any other state in the country have bars and restaurants back to takeout only?  None that I know of.  And it's because Vermont is....by far...the least Covid-inflicted state in the country.
> 
> I feel like you're almost asking your population to break the rules at that point.  Why penalize the people who are doing the best job?  Hey if the bars close NY, MA, and NH have their bars and restaurants open, what's stopping VT people from going there?


Restaurants can still serve sit down meals until 10PM

The rule change is specific to bars and night clubs.

IIRC the delineation between a bar/club and restaurant in VT is if 50% or more of your revenue comes from alcohol sales, you are considered a bar.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 13, 2020)

Not skiing related, but I was supposed to see an outdoor concert in town tomorrow.  The performers were from Burlington, VT.  

The band just cancelled because they didn't want to have to quarantine for two weeks when they got home.


----------



## tumbler (Nov 13, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> How does that reconcile with Ski Resorts ability to operate.  Does not seem to be trending well at present


Uh oh.  Great point unfortunately.  Ski ya next year!


----------



## kingslug (Nov 13, 2020)

The new measures prohibit multi-household social gatherings — regardless of whether they are public or private, indoor or outdoor. Only individuals living alone may gather with members of their immediate family living in a different household.

So how are VT ski resort lodges going to operate if you can't do this in a house?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

People have missed a big news item from today's announcement out of Vermont.  All non-school sports leagues are on pause.  This appears to include ski racing programs.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

kingslug said:


> The new measures prohibit multi-household social gatherings — regardless of whether they are public or private, indoor or outdoor. Only individuals living alone may gather with members of their immediate family living in a different household.
> 
> So how are VT ski resort lodges going to operate if you can't do this in a house?



Also, it appears that you must be from the same household when seated at a table in a restaurant.  

One other thought to consider: the Vermont numbers are much higher than they are reporting.  

The state does not include positive rapid antigen tests in their tally.  I spoke with someone who got a rapid test in Washington County a couple of days ago.  There are five rapid testing locations in the county.  At just this one facility, they are seeing roughly 40 positive results per day.  

Many people who get a positive instant test just quarantine and do not bother with the PCR test - so their result is never reported in the official numbers.  Sure, some of those are false positives, but not that many.


----------



## slatham (Nov 13, 2020)

Gov Scott didn't really answer the question he got on skiing - he just referenced travel ban, lack of snow, and we'll see where we are in a month.

But he did answer one on bowling - you can go to a bowling alley, just not with someone outside your immediate family.

And restaurants are still open with indoor dinning. Again, just your immediate family at your table. Theory was these are "Structured" environments that are following strict guidelines.

The comments on recreational sports centered on leagues. This is prohibited.

So given current info I think skiing can happen, you just can't go with a group outside immediate family. And of course no ski racing etc, which I have to think would apply to any group activities like lessons.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 13, 2020)

This season..is FUBAR. or maybe not..I don't know.


----------



## NYDB (Nov 13, 2020)

I think VT just needs to go ahead and ban dancing like Footloose


----------



## LasersInTheTaiga (Nov 13, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> I think VT just needs to go ahead and ban dancing like Footloose



I mean Scott already specifically banned "taking a walk with a neighbor"


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

The timing of this wave in Vermont has to be incredible worrisome for ski areas.  They need to decide very quickly if they will be making snow - and if so, how much of it they will make.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 13, 2020)

There is a snowmaking window this weekend...let's see who turns them on.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

billo said:


> There is a snowmaking window this weekend...let's see who turns them on.


And how much they turn on.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 13, 2020)

billo said:


> There is a snowmaking window this weekend...let's see who turns them on.



Starting roughly on Tuesday, that when we really will get an idea. This weekend is more marginal with likely some shutdowns due to temps in many places. Along about Tuesday next week, looks like maybe a 2.5 - 3 day window for a continuous run for most everyone. That should really give a look at who's going to put some cards on the table, especially after having a few days to digest the latest hands the Gov Scott dealt this past week


----------



## zoomzoom (Nov 13, 2020)

you've prob read the gov's response today, we natives are doing the most harm in terms of new cases.  71% of new cases stem from local gatherings, parties, etc.  the hammer's coming down.  i've been inside a diner just once since feb ( outdoor tables just closed as it started raining), guess i'll wait another 6 months for the next time.  stay safe out there.  

https://www.wcax.com/2020/11/13/vermont-state-leaders-to-hold-briefing-as-covid-19-cases-rise/


----------



## drjeff (Nov 13, 2020)

oompaloompa said:


> you've prob read the gov's response today, we natives are doing the most harm in terms of new cases.  71% of new cases stem from local gatherings, parties, etc.  the hammer's coming down.  i've been inside a diner just once since feb ( outdoor tables just closed as it started raining), guess i'll wait another 6 months for the next time.  stay safe out there.
> 
> https://www.wcax.com/2020/11/13/vermont-state-leaders-to-hold-briefing-as-covid-19-cases-rise/


Inside ='s bad
Outside ='s OK

Seems to be the general take home message here, regardless of where one lives (let's be honest, COVID is pretty much everywhere by now).

Skiing/riding happens where? (Big Snow excluded of course)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Many people who get a positive instant test just quarantine and *do not bother with the PCR test - so their result is never reported in the official numbers*.



Are you saying that State of Vermont doesn't count a citizen as a COVID19+ case unless they 100% receive confirmation via a PCR test?   I'm not sure if you wrote that correctly, but if you did, that means any Vermont citizen suspected of COVID19, but not tested, or tested serologically & confirmed via antibody testing, but NOT currently COVID19 present wouldn't be counted as a Vermont + COVID19 incidence.  If that's true, I suspect Vermont's public data are greatly flawed, and perhaps significantly undercounting the state's true # of COVID19 cases.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 13, 2020)

slatham said:


> But he did answer one on bowling - you can go to a bowling alley, just not with someone outside your immediate family.



So an outdoor tennis league is cancelled, but indoor bowling is "safe".

These are not serious people.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Are you saying that State of Vermont doesn't count a citizen as a COVID19+ case unless they 100% receive confirmation via a PCR test?


That is the sole metric they use to calculate confirmed cases.  This was told to me by a very high up healthcare executive.


----------



## abc (Nov 13, 2020)

What are these "instant test" are you referring to?


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 13, 2020)

abc said:


> What are these "instant test" are you referring to?


The ones that pickup the common cold!


----------



## drjeff (Nov 13, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> That is the sole metric they use to calculate confirmed cases.  This was told to me by a very high up healthcare executive.


If that indeed is the case, were the people who ok'd this recording metric the same ones who ok'd the Burke/Jay/Quiros/EB-5 oversight?


----------



## kingslug (Nov 13, 2020)

As I have stated before...very confusing


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 13, 2020)

abc said:


> What are these "instant test" are you referring to?


Antigen tests.  There are a few instant PCR testing machines out there, but they are not available to the general public yet.


----------



## mulva (Nov 13, 2020)

My wife and I work from home in Killington.  Seems to us that most/all people that visit do the masking and are very careful not to come into 6 ft of anyone.  Ski shops have stocked up.  Restaurants do a good job of keeping people apart.  I think we need Winter to be somewhat normal maybe 50% to keep things here running.


----------



## machski (Nov 13, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Any other state in the country have bars and restaurants back to takeout only?  None that I know of.  And it's because Vermont is....by far...the least Covid-inflicted state in the country.
> 
> I feel like you're almost asking your population to break the rules at that point.  Why penalize the people who are doing the best job?  Hey if the bars close NY, MA, and NH have their bars and restaurants open, what's stopping VT people from going there?


It is by region, but much of CA is.  Outside dining is ok, but no indoor dining.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 13, 2020)

Another Alterra resort...another delayed opening- Steamboat December 1.  

Solitude says they're hoping to be open by the end of the month, and are explicitly saying they'll be looking at when other resorts are opening as well to control local demand.


----------



## machski (Nov 13, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Another Alterra resort...another delayed opening- Steamboat December 1.
> 
> Solitude says they're hoping to be open by the end of the month, and are explicitly saying they'll be looking at when other resorts are opening as well to control local demand.


But Mammoth opens tomorrow.


----------



## machski (Nov 14, 2020)

Not exactly a resort based thing, but Maine is back to Quarantine restrictions on every state except for NH and VT currently.  It also includes Maine residents again who go outside ME/NH/VT and then come back.  Fun times....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> *That is the sole metric they use to calculate confirmed cases.  *This was told to me by a very high up healthcare executive.



That would be pretty shocking if true, and would basically render Vermont's "lowest COVID19 positivity" rate in America completely null & void in my opinion.  Not saying you're wrong, just saying it's hard for me to believe, and I think if that were the case somebody in the Vermont media like a VTDigger would have been all over this, or somebody who understands statistics & the various tests available in healthcare would have gone to the media to call BS on Vermont's low COVID19 infection data.  Net/net, in the event you are correct, I assure you Vermont has had many, many, many, many more COVID19 cases than they are reporting to the public.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2020)

I cant have Thanksgiving dinner with my family in Vermont, because it's "too dangerous", meanwhile in Washington DC where people far more important than I live:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327340810262765568


----------



## chuckstah (Nov 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That would be pretty shocking if true, and would basically render Vermont's "lowest COVID19 positivity" rate in America completely null & void in my opinion.  Not saying you're wrong, just saying it's hard for me to believe, and I think if that were the case somebody in the Vermont media like a VTDigger would have been all over this, or somebody who understands statistics & the various tests available in healthcare would have gone to the media to call BS on Vermont's low COVID19 infection data.  Net/net, in the event you are correct, I assure you Vermont has had many, many, many, many more COVID19 cases than they are reporting to the public.


It is indeed true.  Here in NH counts are much higher, but include all tests. VT is sandbagging the numbers.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That would be pretty shocking if true, and would basically render Vermont's "lowest COVID19 positivity" rate in America completely null & void in my opinion.  Not saying you're wrong, just saying it's hard for me to believe, and I think if that were the case somebody in the Vermont media like a VTDigger would have been all over this, or somebody who understands statistics & the various tests available in healthcare would have gone to the media to call BS on Vermont's low COVID19 infection data.  Net/net, in the event you are correct, I assure you Vermont has had many, many, many, many more COVID19 cases than they are reporting to the public.


These articles confirm it.









						Why Vermont Health Department lowered number of people tested for coronavirus
					

Vermont's Department of Health last month lowered its total for the number of people tested for coronavirus by about 1,000.



					www.burlingtonfreepress.com
				












						Many states keep patchy data or don't release results from antigen COVID tests, review shows
					

More than 20 states either don’t count or have incomplete data on the use of COVID-19 antigen tests, a review by Kaiser Health News showed.



					www.usatoday.com
				




I can also say from first hand experience that there is no contact tracing after a positive antigen test.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 14, 2020)

Guns are on at Killington.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 14, 2020)

billo said:


> Guns are on at Killington.


Should be opening in a few days!


----------



## spiderpig (Nov 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant have Thanksgiving dinner with my family in Vermont, because it's "too dangerous", meanwhile in Washington DC where people far more important than I live:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327340810262765568


Well, they were shamed into cancelling that.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 14, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Should be opening in a few days!


If a few days is 2 or 3 that's a hard no.

Won't be able to open top to bottom until at least the end of next week when colder air arrives.


----------



## skiur (Nov 14, 2020)

billo said:


> If a few days is 2 or 3 that's a hard no.
> 
> Won't be able to open top to bottom until at least the end of next week when colder air arrives.



If they wanted to they could be open by Wednesday.  I doubt they want too.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant have Thanksgiving dinner with my family in Vermont, because it's "too dangerous", meanwhile in Washington DC where people far more important than I live:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1327340810262765568


lol "it's very spaced".

Nancy is very spaced.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That would be pretty shocking if true, and would basically render Vermont's "lowest COVID19 positivity" rate in America completely null & void in my opinion.  Not saying you're wrong, just saying it's hard for me to believe, and I think if that were the case somebody in the Vermont media like a VTDigger would have been all over this, or somebody who understands statistics & the various tests available in healthcare would have gone to the media to call BS on Vermont's low COVID19 infection data.  Net/net, in the event you are correct, I assure you Vermont has had many, many, many, many more COVID19 cases than they are reporting to the public.


Why is it shocking? NJ doesn't include rapid test results in their numbers either. No idea what the logic behind that is...but there's a bunch of states that don't include the antigen results in official numbers. I don't agree with that inconsistency, but it definitely isn't just VT that's essentially under-reporting by excluding the rapid tests from numbers.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 14, 2020)

billo said:


> If a few days is 2 or 3 that's a hard no.
> 
> Won't be able to open top to bottom until at least the end of next week when colder air arrives.


My guess is the 23rd


----------



## machski (Nov 14, 2020)

skiur said:


> If they wanted to they could be open by Wednesday.  I doubt they want too.


Why do people keep saying "of they wanted to open they could but won't?". They have been very clear what they need to open this season terrain wise, which is a hell of a lot more than a normal Killington fall open.  It has nothing to do with them not wanting to open, it is that they have to do it right or bring the State of Vermont down on them and shut it down.  

Everywhere is the same.  SR had originally wanted to open ASAP with TTB and just Locke Triple in play.  That changed to needing multiple lifts and trails (plus a little randsomwear attack taking out their pass/ticketing systems) due to the virus.

In the end, many areas wanted to be open by now even with the larger terrain needed.  Mother nature has decided to not play nice.  Wait, we'll get there hopefully before it all gets locked down again.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 14, 2020)

JimG. said:


> lol "it's very spaced".
> 
> Nancy is very spaced.


Nancy is spaced, but tRump is not? I cant....


----------



## skiur (Nov 14, 2020)

machski said:


> Why do people keep saying "of they wanted to open they could but won't?". They have been very clear what they need to open this season terrain wise, which is a hell of a lot more than a normal Killington fall open.  It has nothing to do with them not wanting to open, it is that they have to do it right or bring the State of Vermont down on them and shut it down.
> 
> Everywhere is the same.  SR had originally wanted to open ASAP with TTB and just Locke Triple in play.  That changed to needing multiple lifts and trails (plus a little randsomwear attack taking out their pass/ticketing systems) due to the virus.
> 
> In the end, many areas wanted to be open by now even with the larger terrain needed.  Mother nature has decided to not play nice.  Wait, we'll get there hopefully before it all gets locked down again.



I'm not talking about the stairway, people forget that K used to always be the first to open ttb.  They have blown on GN from top to bunny buster down for two days and opened.  Would not be a problem to add upper mouse run to that and then spin K1, north ridge quad, and snowdon triple which would be enough lifts for pandemic skiing.  I understand why they aren't opening Wednesday, but with the current forecast and the need to spread out due to covid, they still could.


----------



## ski&soccermom (Nov 14, 2020)

Does anyone know if Gov. Scott is part of Cuomo’s summit this weekend?  I read a half dozen articles and some say he is, and others say he isn’t...  I think linking VT to MA, CT, NY, NJ is key for so many of us...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> NJ doesn't include rapid test results in their numbers either. No idea what the logic behind that is...but there's a bunch of states that don't include the antigen results in official numbers. I don't agree with that inconsistency, but it definitely isn't just VT that's essentially under-reporting by excluding the rapid tests from numbers.



Any state that isnt including all forms of testing in their numbers is undercounting COVID19 cases to a certain degree, some more than others depending upon which test(s) they choose to exclude.  I have a big problem with those not including affirmative IgM & IgG figures as well.  That makes absolutely no sense & IMO could result in the largest number of undercounted cases.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 15, 2020)

Guns are on at Okemo this morning.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 15, 2020)

I'm going to skip opening week and see what happens..not interested in the insanity I think will go on. People have been very cooped up for a while. Might as well wait for more terrain to open up..if it does open up. Going to investigate hike to skiing areas.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Nov 15, 2020)

billo said:


> Guns are on at Okemo this morning.


Looking at all the webcams this morning, It’s interesting that the Epic areas are/have been blowing snow (mt.snow, okemo, stowe) while the Icon areas have not done anything yet (stratton, sugarbush). Seems like a corporate decision and wondering if it’s weather related or COVID related.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 15, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Looking at all the webcams this morning, It’s interesting that the Epic areas are/have been blowing snow (mt.snow, okemo, stowe) while the Icon areas have not done anything yet (stratton, sugarbush). Seems like a corporate decision and wondering if it’s weather related or COVID related.


Sugarbush doesn't really have a good webcam view showing the top of the mountain. Down low on the trails you can actually see from the webcams they simply didn't have good temps anytime I looked (or the window was very small where they were decent). There's a possibility they were making snow up high on Jester. That's really the only place they had cold enough temps. We'll see what happens tonight.

FWIW, they were making snow already this year on the lower mountain trails, but it all melted now. So it isn't like they didn't try and did nothing yet.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 15, 2020)

andrec10 said:


> Nancy is spaced, but tRump is not? I cant....


Wow you guys put politics into everything.

Just a little humor, don't get your political panties in a twist!


----------



## abc (Nov 15, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Wow you guys put politics into everything.
> 
> Just a little humor, don't get your political panties in a twist!


Comedy 101, know your audience.
Comedy 102, your audience need to have a common background (understanding, subject matter knowledge etc...) for any "joke" to get across.
...
Comedy 201, see comedy 101

Putting out a "joke" knowing (or ignorance of) your audience DO NOT share a common understanding of the topic is a recipe for your "humor" falling flat.


----------



## thebigo (Nov 15, 2020)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Looking at all the webcams this morning, It’s interesting that the Epic areas are/have been blowing snow (mt.snow, okemo, stowe) while the Icon areas have not done anything yet (stratton, sugarbush). Seems like a corporate decision and wondering if it’s weather related or COVID related.


Interesting all nh vail webcams are down, thought it was a corporate thing.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 15, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Wow you guys put politics into everything.
> 
> Just a little humor, don't get your political panties in a twist!


Then don't bring up politicians. Easy as that! Don't be a hypocrite!


----------



## slatham (Nov 15, 2020)

Sugarbush is (or was) making snow on Jester and Elbow. Only have temps up high so that's where they went. Better temps Monday night with real cold TuesPM-ThurAM.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 15, 2020)

Latest public health order put ski season on hold
					

NEW MEXICO (KRQE) – The latest shutdown will delay the start of the ski season. A few resorts, including Taos Ski Valley and Red River Ski Area, were scheduled to open within the next two week…




					www.krqe.com
				




New Mexico ski areas can't open due to new lockdown measures


----------



## Glenn (Nov 15, 2020)

I believe we can roll our passes to next season if we decide we don't want to use them (Stratton). We typically get our first turns in on Thanksgiving weekend; usually Thanksgiving day. That won't happen this year. We're going to sit out until probably late December/New Years and see how things look. If there are still travel restrictions or more hoops to jump through at the mountain, we'll sit this one out. If we skied somewhere that required reservations, we probably would have thrown the towel in already. I get that for day trips, but not passholders.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 15, 2020)

andrec10 said:


> Then don't bring up politicians. Easy as that! Don't be a hypocrite!


I did not bring up politicians...BG did with his post link to an article that mentioned her. I was reacting to that.

Easy does it.


----------



## timmyc (Nov 16, 2020)

abc said:


> Comedy 101, know your audience.
> Comedy 102, your audience need to have a common background (understanding, subject matter knowledge etc...) for any "joke" to get across.
> ...
> Comedy 201, see comedy 101
> ...


Wow. Between this and your covid hysteria, you sound like a lot of fun.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 16, 2020)

A horse walks into a bar..bartender says..why the long face?
I'll be here for the week..tip your waitress.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2020)

Vermont set another record with 122 new cases today.


----------



## abc (Nov 16, 2020)

timmyc said:


> Wow. Between this and your covid hysteria, you sound like a lot of fun.


 If it's between Covid hysteria vs. advocating ignoring Vermont's travel restriction (or making false claim of quarantine). I'm pretty sure the latter is more fun.

Like the college students who party on their first week on campus. It's great fun and not at all Covid hysteria. We all know the result. 

But then, perhaps Covid is nothing but a hoax designed by the Chinese to kill all "fun"!


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 16, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont set another record with 122 new cases today.


Looks like residents not visitors. 


VTKilarney said:


> Vermont set another record with 122 new cases today.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 16, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont set another record with 122 new cases today.



They must not have bankrupted enough small businesses yet.  That's the key to protecting people from COVID19.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 17, 2020)

Give them time..they will.


----------



## tumbler (Nov 17, 2020)

Will new rules hurt winter tourism businesses in Vermont?
					

Skyrocketing coronavirus cases and new restrictions are spelling uncertainty for the upcoming ski season and the millions of dollars those visitors bring to Vermont's economy. Our Calvin Cutler found out how businesses are feeling.




					www.wcax.com


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2020)

i hope you all had a nice summer. 

i've been trying to avoid forums generally since spring. it's just been a toxic year and forums breed toxicity.

saw some 'sky is falling' stuff from skiology matt this morning so decided to come pop in

i have all this use it or lose it vacation time so i am off from dec 8 - jan 4. decided against my typical western ski christmas and instead reserved an airbnb near sugarbush for 11 days pre xmas (12/9-20). allows me to avoid the holiday rush and be home for my lady's bday (12/21) and xmas. I've been working from home since march, so does the lady, and we hardly ever go anywhere or see anyone, so it's fairly easy for us to operate in compliance with vermont's rules. 

but... there's literally no snow yet and facebook matt says they're about to close vermont down even harder, and i'm still pretty wary of pursuing personal fun in the age of covid 

2020 is a drag huh?


----------



## cdskier (Nov 17, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Vermont set another record with 122 new cases today.



And VT finally woke up and stopped using that stupid blue coloring for their own counties.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i hope you all had a nice summer.
> 
> i've been trying to avoid forums generally since spring. it's just been a toxic year and forums breed toxicity.
> 
> ...


I was wondering where you were.

I have no problem pursuing fun right now but that's all it is, a pursuit. I don't think VT cares about your personal vigilance and sacrifice staying home. If you want to go to VT you have to quarantine 14 days or 7 and a negative COVID test. Hardly going anywhere or seeing anyone won't cut it for VT. 

I have bagged my K pass and asked for a refund. I'll ski in NY this season assuming it ever gets cold and assuming dictator Cuomo allows it.


----------



## mtl1076 (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i hope you all had a nice summer.
> 
> i've been trying to avoid forums generally since spring. it's just been a toxic year and forums breed toxicity.
> 
> ...


Skiology Matt is a joke among most people with any real knowledge of the ski industry.  I'm sure the same would hold true for those who are truly involved and in the know at the state level. It would be wise to not listen to him on those topics.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 17, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> Skiology Matt is a joke among most people with any real knowledge of the ski industry.  I'm sure the same would hold true for those who are truly involved and in the know at the state level. It would be wise to not listen to him on those topics.


I loved his whole preemptive post all about how he's exempt from travel bans anyway since he's considered an "essential" employee due to being part of the media by running a ski blog. He thinks pretty highly of himself.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 17, 2020)

mtl1076 said:


> Skiology Matt is a joke among most people with any real knowledge of the ski industry.  I'm sure the same would hold true for those who are truly involved and in the know at the state level. It would be wise to not listen to him on those topics.


Probably is a joke but his article is spot on about the need for out of state skiers.

Also, for anyone that is still afraid of covid:

Current CDC best IFR estimate:

0-19 years: 0.00003 (1 in 33,333) 
20-49 years: 0.0002 (1 in 5,000) 
50-69 years: 0.005 (be careful) 
70+ years: 0.054 (stay home)


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Nov 17, 2020)

billo said:


> Probably is a joke but his article is spot on about the need for out of state skiers.


Agreed


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I loved his whole preemptive post all about how he's exempt from travel bans anyway since he's considered an "essential" employee due to being part of the media by running a ski blog. He thinks pretty highly of himself.



my eyes fell out of my head when i read that. come on man, you run a facebook blog. media my ass. 

i can easily quarantine 7 days and get a test, which is my intention for the December trip, assuming sugarbush is open


----------



## JimG. (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my eyes fell out of my head when i read that. come on man, you run a facebook blog. media my ass.
> 
> i can easily quarantine 7 days and get a test, which is my intention for the December trip, assuming sugarbush is open


You have a better plan than most; if you want to ski in VT best to do so for 10-14 days minimum.

The assuming SB is open part will be the sticking point. I guess we will know more after Thanksgiving. If COVID surges again in mid-Dec ski season 20-21 will be toast.

So skiers are depending on the population to be smart and stay home in small groups to celebrate Tgiving, Not thinking that's a smart play for the betting man.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my eyes fell out of my head when i read that. come on man, you run a facebook blog. media my ass.
> 
> i can easily quarantine 7 days and get a test, which is my intention for the December trip, assuming sugarbush is open



Will you be able to get tested even though you aren't showing any symptoms?   Trying to do that around here is difficult to impossible


----------



## djd66 (Nov 17, 2020)

billo said:


> Current CDC best IFR estimate:
> 
> 0-19 years: 0.00003 (1 in 33,333)
> 20-49 years: 0.0002 (1 in 5,000)
> ...


Do you have a link to those numbers, I could not find it.


----------



## abc (Nov 17, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Will you be able to get tested even though you aren't showing any symptoms?   Trying to do that around here is difficult to impossible


Where's "around here"?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Will you be able to get tested even though you aren't showing any symptoms?   Trying to do that around here is difficult to impossible



yes in nyc all cityMD locations are no questions asked tests, and my insurance has covered 5 to date. there is a location 5 blocks from my apartment.

we mostly stay home but I've gotten tested everytime there's been a potential exposure because its free, local, and fairly fast. usually i walk in and don't wait. last week i waited outside for 30 minutes or so. results have a 48 hour turnaround.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 17, 2020)

djd66 said:


> Do you have a link to those numbers, I could not find it.











						Healthcare Workers
					

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.




					www.cdc.gov
				




About halfway down.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yes in nyc all cityMD locations are no questions asked tests, and my insurance has covered 5 to date. there is a location 5 blocks from my apartment.
> 
> we mostly stay home but I've gotten tested everytime there's been a potential exposure because its free, local, and fairly fast. usually i walk in and don't wait. last week i waited outside for 30 minutes or so. results have a 48 hour turnaround.


What an epic drain on our system that you just get tested whenever you want, at our cost.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2020)

billo said:


> What an epic drain on our system that you just get tested whenever you want, at our cost.



i've been tested 5 times in 8 months after potential exposures and/or prior to the two occasions i needed to see my high risk parents for family emergencies. and the city has urged its residents to get tested. i don't need to justify these responsible decisions to you. quickly remembering why i left forums.


----------



## abc (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i have all this use it or lose it vacation time so i am off from dec 8 - jan 4. decided against my typical western ski christmas and instead reserved an airbnb near sugarbush for 11 days pre xmas (12/9-20). allows me to avoid the holiday rush and be home for my lady's bday (12/21) and xmas


Maybe you can hop on a plane to go out west?

Sure, everyone is warry of getting on a plane. But there's some study that are slowing appearing indicating planes aren't that risky ASSUMING MANDATORY MASKS. Maybe pick an airline that don't book middle seat? 

Going west gets around the issue of no snow. But if the destination state requires quarantine, that could be a problem. 

(I'm 90% sure I'm not getting a pass, probably won't resort ski. But for those who can and want to, stay safe and you should have fun!)


----------



## abc (Nov 17, 2020)

billo said:


> What an epic drain on our system that you just get tested whenever you want, at our cost.


Much more of a drain on "your" system if he doesn't get tested and spreads the virus around!

Don't go to the hospital when you're not at death's doorstep. It's a drain on "our system". Wait till you're much sicker and need much more invasive treatment. 

Don't do any cancer screening, it's a "drain on our system". Wait till you have symptoms and now the system will spend a lot on surgeries and chemo to save you...

Don't go testing even if you're in contact with suspected people. It's a drain on the system! 

Brilliant!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2020)

abc said:


> Maybe you can hop on a plane to go out west?
> 
> Sure, everyone is warry of getting on a plane. But there's some study that are slowing appearing indicating planes aren't that risky ASSUMING MANDATORY MASKS. Maybe pick an airline that don't book middle seat?
> 
> ...




i had the cheapest colorado trip ever planned all booked for most of the summer for a-basin/copper/steamboat the same dates as the pending vermont trip, and i actually pulled the trigger and cancelled yesterday. i just don't feel good about air travel. i barely feel ok about new england car travel and skiing is the one thing that's getting me to consider leaving my little apartment-neighborhood park-grocery store bubble. driving a few hundred miles in my car alone just feels better to me than any kind of air travel and rented cars and etc


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 17, 2020)

Keep in mind that Vermont requires a PCR test to break quarantine early.  The rapid antigen test is not accepted.  Because of a recent spike in demand, it takes about 5-7 days to get the PCR test results.  So your best case scenario is a quarantine of 12 days if you begin your quarantine in Vermont.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 17, 2020)

Utah is not looking good. Will be the first time in 20 years I don't go there..we will see.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 17, 2020)

Which makes VT just not viable for anyone. Hope they survive this winter..I imagine a lot of businesses won't.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 17, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that Vermont requires a PCR test to break quarantine early.  The rapid antigen test is not accepted.  Because of a recent spike in demand, it takes about 5-7 days to get the PCR test results.  So your best case scenario is a quarantine of 12 days if you begin your quarantine in Vermont.



is that the brain swab? all my tests have been brain swabs, and down here results take about 48 hours. those brain swabs really get up there. not fun.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 17, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Will you be able to get tested even though you aren't showing any symptoms?   Trying to do that around here is difficult to impossible


Here too. I was refused a test for my son before he left for college because he was not sick (no symptoms anyway). I tried to get one for no reason myself and was told the same thing.

I have heard that certain areas are getting free unlimited testing. Probably a NYC/LI thing.

I just don't want to deal with tests and quarantines every time I want to ski. But there should be testing for all no questions asked.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 17, 2020)

I guess no one should go to Vermont anyway, their cases are spiking.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 17, 2020)

Well this is depressing:  https://www.healthline.com/health-n...l-show-your-risk-for-covid-19#The-bottom-line
I notice NY is not listed very much


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> is that the brain swab? all my tests have been brain swabs, and down here results take about 48 hours. those brain swabs really get up there. not fun.


The newer pcr tests don't require that, just in your nostril for 5 seconds.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 17, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that Vermont requires a PCR test to break quarantine early.  The rapid antigen test is not accepted.  Because of a recent spike in demand, it takes about 5-7 days to get the PCR test results.  So your best case scenario is a quarantine of 12 days if you begin your quarantine in Vermont.


I get my pcr test results back in less then 24hrs from labcorp


----------



## ss20 (Nov 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Utah is not looking good. Will be the first time in 20 years I don't go there..we will see.



No but it does look to be slowing down.  November 10-17th statewide ICU numbers went up 11 people from 185 to 196.  November 3rd to 10th it shot up 33 people from 152 to 185.  Positivity rate has stabilized on the "official" data which tracks rolling 7-day positivity so it's only up to November 10 now.  Since then through my quick calculations the daily positivity rate has been down somewhat.  

I think Utah is in a better spot than Colorado right now.  Both states had roughly the same average daily number of cases a month ago, at 1,200 new cases a day.  Utah's is up to 3,000 now, Colorado is approaching 5,000 new cases a day and hospitalizations jumped huuuuge yesterday.


----------



## jimk (Nov 17, 2020)

There are about ten million people in the greater Wash-Balt metro area.  The three most popular ski areas (Whitetail, Liberty, Roundtop, all owned by Vail) for day-tripping from these two cities  are clustered about 90 minutes away in south-central PA.  By Pennsylvania state order issued November 17, 2020, travelers entering Pennsylvania from other states must have a negative COVID-19 test within 72 hours prior to entering the Commonwealth or quarantine for 14 days upon entry into Pennsylvania.  
Don't know how long these restrictions will remain in place, but if they still apply when the resorts open in December for the season it will be a big-time impediment for the vast majority of their customer base.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2020)

cdskier said:


> And VT finally woke up and stopped using that stupid blue coloring for their own counties.
> 
> View attachment 42574



But wait, they added that regional heat map, right?  I dont recall seeing that on the site before.

If so, it seems to me that's their, _"but, but, but, but, we're still BETTER than MOST"_ map.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 17, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Well this is depressing:  https://www.healthline.com/health-n...l-show-your-risk-for-covid-19#The-bottom-line
> I notice NY is not listed very much



OMG dont show that map to anyone in Vermont's government.  The ski resorts will be shut down in perpetuity.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 18, 2020)

Just bought a 4000 piece Lego Technic to put together..in anticipation.....of a boring winter.


----------



## Pez (Nov 18, 2020)

I've been trying to get a PS5 with no luck.  Probably  should invest in a new pair of snowshoes too.


----------



## abc (Nov 18, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Just bought a 4000 piece Lego Technic to put together..in anticipation.....of a boring winter.


LOL!

I'm sorry. It's a sad topic. But can't help to laugh at the irony


----------



## dblskifanatic (Nov 18, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> I get my pcr test results back in less then 24hrs from labcorp


We had a PCR test prior to going to Turk & Caicos and mine to 4 days which was fine since it had to be within 5 days prior to boarding the plane.  It was a bit stressful.  Friends that were meeting us there had their PCR test results in 2 days.  So the results vary.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 18, 2020)

jimk said:


> There are about ten million people in the greater Wash-Balt metro area.  The three most popular ski areas (Whitetail, Liberty, Roundtop, all owned by Vail) for day-tripping from these two cities  are clustered about 90 minutes away in south-central PA.  By Pennsylvania state order issued November 17, 2020, travelers entering Pennsylvania from other states must have a negative COVID-19 test within 72 hours prior to entering the Commonwealth or quarantine for 14 days upon entry into Pennsylvania.
> Don't know how long these restrictions will remain in place, but if they still apply when the resorts open in December for the season it will be a big-time impediment for the vast majority of their customer base.


Unless you are a protester, then you can do whatever you want.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Nov 18, 2020)

So I have a question - How many here believe restaurants are responsible for recent covid spread?  I ask this because we eat out often 3-4 times per week since they opened back up and in 4 different states and it seems that if restaurants were that risky my wife and I would have gotten it by now.

California is shutting down restaurants again, New Mexico has, Colorado is now at 25% capacity.  Florida seems to be doing the opposite.

People we know locally that work in the industry are scared about their jobs and I think they could remain open as they were.  I think politicians want to be seen as having an answer and make decisions that contradict.  Football is being played at all levels, Airlines like Delta and American are packing their planes, Universities opened up, rioting is still happening, etc.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 18, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I have a question - How many here believe restaurants are responsible for recent covid spread?  I ask this because we eat out often 3-4 times per week since they opened back up and in 4 different states and it seems that if restaurants were that risky my wife and I would have gotten it by now.
> 
> California is shutting down restaurants again, New Mexico has, Colorado is now at 25% capacity.  Florida seems to be doing the opposite.
> 
> People we know locally that work in the industry are scared about their jobs and I think they could remain open as they were.  I think politicians want to be seen as having an answer and make decisions that contradict.  Football is being played at all levels, Airlines like Delta and American are packing their planes, Universities opened up, rioting is still happening, etc.




Unless you're talking a true, shoulder to shoulder for an extended time situation like in a true bar setting, the data in general just doesn't show that restaurants, when utilized in a socially distanced table spacing way, are the cause,

A good deal of what is causing the spike now is traced back to often at home gatherings, around Halloween, where mask use, social distancing, and often a few adult beverages, were involved.

If a full scientific, as opposed to a bit of reactionary paranoia, was taken with the approach to things, you'd likely see a much more normal day to day society with respect to most businesses, with a bit of mask use, social distancing and hand/face hygiene added in, And no major spreader events attributed to restaurants


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 18, 2020)

Vermont's case load is starting to look pretty similar to their neighbouring states.   Let people come, enforce mask mandates and social distanciation.   With this, you can ski safely.

In Quebec currently, 75 percent of the cases either come from school or workplace, with the majority of the rest coming from (mostly illegal) indoor meetings.   Odds are you'll catch this thing by spending hours INDOOR without masks and/or adequate social distanciation.   Stopping out of state skiers is plain dumb.  Shut down restaurants/bars, make sure they wear mask when grocery shopping, but let them come and ski.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 18, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I have a question - How many here believe restaurants are responsible for recent covid spread?  I ask this because we eat out often 3-4 times per week since they opened back up and in 4 different states and it seems that if restaurants were that risky my wife and I would have gotten it by now.
> 
> California is shutting down restaurants again, New Mexico has, Colorado is now at 25% capacity.  Florida seems to be doing the opposite.
> 
> People we know locally that work in the industry are scared about their jobs and I think they could remain open as they were.  I think politicians want to be seen as having an answer and make decisions that contradict.  Football is being played at all levels, Airlines like Delta and American are packing their planes, Universities opened up, rioting is still happening, etc.


This is economic suicide.  If they need to shut down business, they better wait until another PPP comes out.  They shut down business without emmediate PPP money, over half of the buisnesses in the US will fail.   By closing restaurants now, most single point restaurants won't make it until middle of January.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 18, 2020)

Too bad we wasted the 3 trillion we already spent.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 18, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I have a question - How many here believe restaurants are responsible for recent covid spread?  I ask this because we eat out often 3-4 times per week since they opened back up and in 4 different states and it seems that if restaurants were that risky my wife and I would have gotten it by now.
> 
> California is shutting down restaurants again, New Mexico has, Colorado is now at 25% capacity.  Florida seems to be doing the opposite.
> 
> People we know locally that work in the industry are scared about their jobs and I think they could remain open as they were.  I think politicians want to be seen as having an answer and make decisions that contradict.  Football is being played at all levels, Airlines like Delta and American are packing their planes, Universities opened up, rioting is still happening, etc.


We have eaten out a few times at restaurants of people I know and trust. The only thing as sanitary as a well run restaurant is a well run doctor's office or hospital.

I totally agree with you about totally non-essential activities such as pro sports, flying or demonstrating. All the resources wasted on those things should be devoted to schools, universities and healthcare.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 18, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Too bad we wasted the 3 trillion we already spent.


Agree, the problem with the first go around is there were alot of buisness that got it but didn't deserve it.  IE Havard for 46 million.  The next go around should be for companies that sales have gone down 50% or more.  That would weed out the over half that got it last time.  Like a said in a comment before,  If local government shuts down local business before there is aid to these businesses most won't make it thru January. 
You also can say the same thing about local ski areas.  If they shut down the ski resort all the mom and pop resorts will go under.  Leaving the Ikon and epic companies buying these resorts for pennies of the dollar.  Do readers in this thread really think guys like Magic, Burke, Bolton Valley will make it thru this winter if half of the season is shut down?


----------



## Brewbeer (Nov 18, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Too bad we wasted the 3 trillion we already spent.


People who hold fat stock portfolios might disagree.


----------



## HowieT2 (Nov 18, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Unless you're talking a true, shoulder to shoulder for an extended time situation like in a true bar setting, the data in general just doesn't show that restaurants, when utilized in a socially distanced table spacing way, are the cause,
> 
> A good deal of what is causing the spike now is traced back to often at home gatherings, around Halloween, where mask use, social distancing, and often a few adult beverages, were involved.
> 
> If a full scientific, as opposed to a bit of reactionary paranoia, was taken with the approach to things, you'd likely see a much more normal day to day society with respect to most businesses, with a bit of mask use, social distancing and hand/face hygiene added in, And no major spreader events attributed to restaurants


Could you share the data indicating that the virus is not spreading in restaurant settings?  I haven't seen anything to that effect but have seen case studies documenting viral transmission in restaurants.
It seems to me, indoor dining is problematic because diners can't wear masks and are expelling air and virus from the lungs when speaking.  This is in contrast to public transportation like trains and planes, where people wear masks and dont speak much.  same thing with classrooms.


----------



## abc (Nov 18, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I have a question - How many here believe restaurants are responsible for recent covid spread?  I ask this because we eat out often 3-4 times per week since they opened back up and in 4 different states and it seems that if restaurants were that risky my wife and I would have gotten it by now.
> 
> California is shutting down restaurants again, New Mexico has, Colorado is now at 25% capacity.  Florida seems to be doing the opposite.
> 
> People we know locally that work in the industry are scared about their jobs and I think they could remain open as they were.  I think politicians want to be seen as having an answer and make decisions that contradict.  Football is being played at all levels, Airlines like Delta and American are packing their planes, Universities opened up, rioting is still happening, etc.


I'm not sure you can draw any conclusion from that. 

Back in Feb/March, I was working in NYC. I spent 8 hrs in a crowded building. Rode elevator ups and down, Rode subway everyday. I eat out as a routine. Yes, 3-4 times a week AT THE MINIMUM. I also attended concerts (mass gathering, lot of singing). All the way up to the week when they got the New Rochelle case. 

My Mom? She spent 3-4 hrs at her daily bridge game, where people ALL touch cards. Jammed in a small room with 30-40 people. All the way till the day of the lockdown.

You could have said the same "we would have gotten it by now"! Yet, we didn't get it. Can we take that to say working 8 hrs in the office daily isn't a problem? Can we say attending an opera with thousands isn't a problem? Can we say riding a jam packed subway isn't a problem? 

If none of those are problem, (because we didn't get sick), what is? 

So just because you and your wife didn't get sick from eating out 3-4 times a week, it doesn't really say much about the safety of eating in restaurants. All you can say is you didn't get sick! Maybe you were lucky that no one in those restaurants had it to begin with. Or you might have had it but showed no symptom. It doesn't say eating in restaurant is "safe".


----------



## abc (Nov 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I totally agree with you about totally non-essential activities such as pro sports, flying or demonstrating. All the resources wasted on those things should be devoted to schools, universities and healthcare.


I'm not sure how much more essential eating out is in comparison to pro sport.

Schools are "more essential". I would argue flying is pretty essential too, for the right purpose, that is.


----------



## NYDB (Nov 18, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Agree, the problem with the first go around is there were alot of buisness that got it but didn't deserve it.  IE Havard for 46 million.  The next go around should be for companies that sales have gone down 50% or more.  That would weed out the over half that got it last time.  Like a said in a comment before,  If local government shuts down local business before there is aid to these businesses most won't make it thru January.
> You also can say the same thing about local ski areas.  If they shut down the ski resort all the mom and pop resorts will go under.  Leaving the Ikon and epic companies buying these resorts for pennies of the dollar.  Do readers in this thread really think guys like Magic, Burke, Bolton Valley will make it thru this winter if half of the season is shut down?



from Seasons Pass Protection Thread



> Jamaica Man





> Hmmmm. Magic will not go bankrupt even if all ski areas, in a worst case scenario, are closed all next season. We have capital and a strong investor group. We may be better positioned to handle a one season shutdown than some of the bigger players...


----------



## JimG. (Nov 18, 2020)

abc said:


> I'm not sure how much more essential eating out is in comparison to pro sport.
> 
> Schools are "more essential". I would argue flying is pretty essential too, for the right purpose, that is.


That whooshing sound is my point going over your head about restaurants. I merely stated that a *well run* restaurant is sanitary and with temperature checks and social distancing probably as safe as any "essential" business. I never compared restaurants to pro sports, I compared them to *well run *doctor's offices and hospitals.. But since you brought it up, allowing restaurants, many of which are small businesses, to operate at some at least break even levels is far more important in the social context than pro sports. Making sure already millionaire pro athletes and owners are made whole is not a priority.

I knew you would pick out the flying reference too. Perhaps flying is essential in some context, but these airlines are packing planes full. Go ahead and defend that practice in our current situation.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 18, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Agree, the problem with the first go around is there were alot of buisness that got it but didn't deserve it.


Wasn't talking about PPP.  While I'm sure it was "frauded" the idea is sound IMO.

The idea of the 3 trillion was to buy us some time. But we didn't do anything really, besides whine about our freedom.  We made no use of the time we bought.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 18, 2020)

Brewbeer said:


> People who hold fat stock portfolios might disagree.


People who judge stock performance over a 6 month period are insider trading, or clueless. IMO.

People who use the stock market as a measure of well-being... sigh.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 18, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Wasn't talking about PPP.  While I'm sure it was "frauded" the idea is sound IMO.
> 
> The idea of the 3 trillion was to buy us some time. But we didn't do anything really, besides whine about our freedom.  We made no use of the time we bought.


Theres two vaccines that are going to be here soon on top of the therapeutics that have been developed.  Seems like we did quite a bit with the time that was bought


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## Harvey (Nov 18, 2020)

I think we'd be there (here) no matter what.  It's all good if you don't get sick, or die, or suffer mental illness, or lose your job, or become a long termer or....


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## spiderpig (Nov 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Here too. I was refused a test for my son before he left for college because he was not sick (no symptoms anyway). I tried to get one for no reason myself and was told the same thing.
> 
> I have heard that certain areas are getting free unlimited testing. Probably a NYC/LI thing.
> 
> I just don't want to deal with tests and quarantines every time I want to ski. But there should be testing for all no questions asked.


Rite Aids and CVS's in certain states, but there are only two Rite Aids in CT doing it. Getting tougher to get an appointment. There are local places by me that you have to stand in line, no appointments taken.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2020)

Vermont was just added to New Jersey's "Do Not Go There" state list.  

My how the tables have turned.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 18, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> *Theres two vaccines that are going to be here soon* on top of the therapeutics that have been developed.  Seems like we did quite a bit with the time that was bought



Likely at least four.  AZN & JNJ are both on deck & should report out within a few weeks.  There are rumors that they wont hit the 95% effectiveness that PFE & MRNA's vaccines both have, but hopefully they can get to 90% at least.  Things are looking up.


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## abc (Nov 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Perhaps flying is essential in some context, but these airlines are packing planes full. Go ahead and defend that practice in our current situation.


Not all the airlines are packing their planes. It's people's choice to NOT fly on those cattle carriers. But clearly many were willing to fly in a full plane. Just as many are prepared to flaunt the quarantine rule to ski in VT.

Blame it on the airlines?

Or for that matter, blame the government for doing a lot of wrong things? Take a look at the mirror on the behavior of our fellow PEOPLE!

As for restaurants, there're "well sanitized" ones. But how many are WELL VENTILATED? And how do you know if your waiter, or the chef are not going to work while sick? That's not to mention there're those that aren't even close to "well sanitized"! 

In the end, it's always that way, the bad apples spoils it for the rest.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 18, 2020)

Are there many people on this thread who are completely concerned about covid that they haven't left their house since mid March and when the vaccine comes out, they won't take it?


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## Zermatt (Nov 18, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Are there many people on this thread who are completely concerned about covid that they haven't left their house since mid March and when the vaccine comes out, they won't take it?


Lots of basement dwellers here.

I personally flew to AZ last month, on a packed plane both ways. On a trip purely for pleasure. It was amazing. Guess what, I didn't get Covid either.


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## NYDB (Nov 18, 2020)

Damn this place is so packed full o‘ douches It’s amazing. I mean, I’m on a few cycling forums and even the roadies can‘t compare with some of these guys


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## JimG. (Nov 18, 2020)

abc said:


> Not all the airlines are packing their planes. It's people's choice to NOT fly on those cattle carriers. But clearly many were willing to fly in a full plane. Just as many are prepared to flaunt the quarantine rule to ski in VT.
> 
> Blame it on the airlines?
> 
> ...


Again, I'm not blaming anyone...I'm simply pointing out what I consider to be practices that are counter to common sense considering our situation. 

And in the end we agree about the bad apples. And that's what it all boils down to.


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## JimG. (Nov 18, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Theres two vaccines that are going to be here soon on top of the therapeutics that have been developed.  Seems like we did quite a bit with the time that was bought


I tend to agree with this; we are far better off now than in March. 

I just want to ski without any hassles. 

I think the $3T was wasted in the sense that it went to places that really didn't need it.


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## JimG. (Nov 18, 2020)

billo said:


> Lots of basement dwellers here.
> 
> I personally flew to AZ last month, on a packed plane both ways. On a trip purely for pleasure. It was amazing. Guess what, I didn't get Covid either.


How would you know that?

If my comment about packed airplanes bothers you, calm down...I don't like flying and wouldn't get on an airplane if there was no pandemic so my opinion about airlines is besides the point. Here in America if you like to fly that's your right and I respect that.

I've been fishing since the stupid lockdown started and I've been all over the NE driving save for VT.

And guess what? I didn't get COVID either.


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## nhskier1969 (Nov 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> How would you know that?
> 
> If my comment about packed airplanes bothers you, calm down...I don't like flying and wouldn't get on an airplane if there was no pandemic so my opinion about airlines is besides the point. Here in America if you like to fly that's your right and I respect that.
> 
> ...


I just wish the government would let people live there lives.  If everyone would be respectful for the people around them.  passing someone walking put the mask over your face.  try to keep some room apart from the next person.  Other than that let people live there lives.  If you are concerned that you live with an elderly person then self quarantine until a vaccine comes out.  If you don't feel comfortable going to the gym, restaurant, skiing and ski lodges then don't go.


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## faceplant (Nov 18, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> Damn this place is so packed full o‘ douches It’s amazing. I mean, I’m on a few cycling forums and even the roadies can‘t compare with some of these guys


used to be  great site- now just a bunch of self impressed knowitalls sniping each other, real bad vibe- lots of good peeps bailed long time ago- I hardly check here anymore, depressing


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## abc (Nov 18, 2020)

faceplant said:


> used to be  great site- now just a bunch of self impressed knowitalls sniping each other, real bad vibe- lots of good peeps bailed long time ago- I hardly check here anymore, depressing


I almost agree. I haven't checked this site since March. 

But this is the only site that covers all of the northeast. This is the only place to find out how the season is going. What are the travel restrictions are and how it will affect the mountains. All without having to go check each and every states and each and every mountain. At this point of the season, I could use such information. To make a decision whether to get a pass for THIS season, vs sitting it out and defer it to 21/22.


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## Smellytele (Nov 19, 2020)

Now it is a site of people bitching about people bitching


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## kingslug (Nov 19, 2020)

The evolution...of a ski site...
very interesting


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## 1dog (Nov 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I just wish the government would let people live there lives.  If everyone would be respectful for the people around them.  passing someone walking put the mask over your face.  try to keep some room apart from the next person.  Other than that let people live there lives.  If you are concerned that you live with an elderly person then self quarantine until a vaccine comes out.  If you don't feel comfortable going to the gym, restaurant, skiing and ski lodges then don't go.


Live Free or Die - some people think living free equals death. Here's a great number of charts that show masks and lockdowns are ineffective - comes right before the Denmark Study was released a few days ago.  




Can't wait to ski! Even got my reserved parking spot at K!


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## 2Planker (Nov 19, 2020)

HC workers are so burnt out...
    Scrubs, Surgical Gown, Booties & Hat, Gloves, Mask, Protective Eyewear and a Face Shield 10-12 hours/day

I haven't been able to take a Vacation Day since February.


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## JimG. (Nov 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I just wish the government would let people live there lives.  If everyone would be respectful for the people around them.  passing someone walking put the mask over your face.  try to keep some room apart from the next person.  Other than that let people live there lives.  If you are concerned that you live with an elderly person then self quarantine until a vaccine comes out.  If you don't feel comfortable going to the gym, restaurant, skiing and ski lodges then don't go.


And I agree wholeheartedly. The problem is the level of respect you mention. There is none.

Example: my wife dragged me out to go shopping last night. We got on the long winding line to pay.  2 elderly women got on line behind us and proceeded to literally stand right behind us at zero distance. I could feel their breath on my shoulder as they were talking. Every time I moved away they moved right behind us again. My wife saw that I was getting agitated so she said loudly "Jim, stop moving away from them because every time you do they move even closer to us". That stopped it although then we got the ugly stares from them. I love my wife!

I do not believe I will get sick with Corona and if I do I'll sneeze and cough a little and then get better. I think I've already had Corona anyway and it was no big deal in my case. I'm in good health with no pre-existing co-morbidities. I work hard at staying in good shape. I'm tired of wearing a mask but I do so to keep every one else's stress under control. And I stay away from people, not because of a germ but because I just don't like people too close to me invading my personal space. That's why I don't like to fly...I love the flying part but cannot stand the people part. It makes my skin crawl. If I had a personal jet I would fly everywhere.

When people just disregard the rules it means I get to follow those dumb rules for longer because it gives the people who make them a reason to extend or expand them. I just want to ski at this point but people who bend or ignore the rules just make it worse for the rest of us.


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## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

1dog said:


> Live Free or Die - some people think living free equals death. Here's a great number of charts that show masks and lockdowns are ineffective - comes right before the Denmark Study was released a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Post reported (not kidding)


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## Los (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Post reported (not kidding)


Why?


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## JimG. (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Post reported (not kidding)


Interested where you are seeing the post was reported? 

I'm not seeing it but not totally up to speed yet with the updated site.


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## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Interested where you are seeing the post was reported?
> 
> I'm not seeing it but not totally up to speed yet with the updated site.


I reported it. Masks ineffective? Save it for Breitbart.


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## JimG. (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> I reported it. Masks ineffective? Save it for Breitbart.


Very good. Agree the topic of the video is not helpful right now.


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## abc (Nov 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Example: my wife dragged me out to go shopping last night. We got on the long winding line to pay. 2 elderly women got on line behind us and proceeded to literally stand right behind us at zero distance. I could feel their breath on my shoulder as they were talking. Every time I moved away they moved right behind us again.


I had one such at one time. 

I went to stand in front of my cart! 

ok, the cart isn't quite 6 feet long. But it's a lot better than 0 feet! 

If I go skiing, and run into people who insist on getting too close on the lift line, I WILL use my poles to "enforce a bubble" around myself!


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## urungus (Nov 19, 2020)

abc said:


> I had one such at one time.
> 
> I went to stand in front of my cart!
> 
> ok, the cart isn't quite 6 feet long. But it's a lot better than 0 feet!



Great idea


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## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

1dog said:


> Live Free or Die - some people think living free equals death. Here's a great number of charts that show masks and lockdowns are ineffective - comes right before the Denmark Study was released a few days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You obvioulsy have not swallowed the kool-aid.  There is no following the science when it comes to Covid.


----------



## Los (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> I reported it. Masks ineffective? Save it for Breitbart.



You disagree with something, so you want it banned? 

No grown man would do something so childish and pathetic, so you must be joking. Funny!


----------



## Harvey (Nov 19, 2020)

Great vid. Definitely trust James Woods more than Fauci. One question, what is Fauci's motivation for lying?


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## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

Los said:


> You disagree with something, so you want it banned?
> 
> No grown man would do something so childish and pathetic, so you must be joking. Funny!


No need to get personal, and you’re mischaracterizing what I’m doing.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 19, 2020)

I took this screen shot from a CNN article.  I didn't realize that over 1.2 million Americans die from Heart disease and Cancer each year.  This has been talked about a million times but what will actually be the death rate from only coronavirus.  The numbers attached have to go down this year, So how many were from thier underlining condition before corona and what does the death certificate say.


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 19, 2020)

Harvey said:


> Great vid. Definitely trust James Woods more than Fauci. One question, what is Fauci's motivation for lying?


That wasn't James Woods


----------



## Los (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> No need to get personal, and you’re mischaracterizing what I’m doing.





Edd said:


> No need to get personal, and you’re mischaracterizing what I’m doing.


What you’re actually doing - virtuously decreeing from on high what constitutes “bad science” and then heroically doing what must be done to protect us simpletons from such “misinformation” - is just as bad (and childish and pathetic).


----------



## Los (Nov 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I took this screen shot from a CNN article.  I didn't realize that over 1.2 million Americans die from Heart disease and Cancer each year.  This has been talked about a million times but what will actually be the death rate from only coronavirus.  The numbers attached have to go down this year, So how many were from thier underlining condition before corona and what does the death certificate say.


And just what the hell are you implying?? Better be careful or the hall monitor will report you. I suggest you submit your comments to Edd for pre-screening. Here’s here to protect us, after all.


----------



## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

Los said:


> And just what the hell are you implying?? Better be careful or the hall monitor will report you. I suggest you submit your comments to Edd for pre-screening. Here’s here to protect us, after all.


Who’re you mad at?


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I took this screen shot from a CNN article.  I didn't realize that over 1.2 million Americans die from Heart disease and Cancer each year.  This has been talked about a million times but what will actually be the death rate from only coronavirus.  The numbers attached have to go down this year, So how many were from thier underlining condition before corona and what does the death certificate say.


For as much as some want to pontificate about their ability to "understand the science", we know that ~99.8% of people recover from COVID-19 including the elderly and immunocompromised. If you're neither, your odds improve significantly. Mitigation has always been about protecting the elderly and immunocompromised, but a big chunk of the country (the overwhelming majority of which is relatively low risk) is wrapped up in a frenzy because they think the science tells them so. 

If one contracts COVID-19, they're probably going to be fine. This is what the data tell us. That said, one should still wear a mask when coming in contact with people indoors because the disease spreads like crazy. This is also what the data tell us. The tribal response to all this has been pathetic and embarrassing.

I'm really hoping vaccine distribution starts in meaningful numbers, soon. Being cooped up like this is unhealthy for everyone, and it shows up in the level of discourse here to faceplant's point.


----------



## Los (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Who’re you mad at?


I realize you’re asking rhetorically, but I’ll respond anyway, just for the fun of it. 

Answer: anyone who tries to control what someone else says, does, or thinks. Call me old fashioned, but I still believe in the free and open exchange of ideas - even bad ones.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 19, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> That wasn't James Woods


I still don't trust him more than Fauci.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I took this screen shot from a CNN article.  I didn't realize that over 1.2 million Americans die from Heart disease and Cancer each year.  This has been talked about a million times but what will actually be the death rate from only coronavirus.  The numbers attached have to go down this year, So how many were from thier underlining condition before corona and what does the death certificate say.



Exactly.

What many who are fixated on the "COVID-19 deaths" numbers may not grasp, is that annually in the US now, there are about 2.8 million deaths from all causes. That works out to an average, about 8800 deaths per day in the US. 

If one wants to arbitrarily set March 15 as the start of the COVID deaths in the US, in the subsequent 8 months, there would of been about 1.8 million total deaths in the US, and from the CDC numbers, this year doesn't seem to be running much different than the normal for total deaths in the US.

Keeping perspective of what the data means, rather than just panicing over what the headline says, is an important thing. Wear a mask, practice proper hand and face hygiene, use social distancing, and take a deep breathe on occasion when reading the headlines that many organizations put out there


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

Los said:


> I realize you’re asking rhetorically, but I’ll respond anyway, just for the fun of it.
> 
> Answer: anyone who tries to control what someone else says, does, or thinks. Call me old fashioned, but I still believe in the free and open exchange of ideas - even bad ones.


That makes no sense nowadays.  It can only be one side. Don't you know that.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Who’re you mad at?


Full disclosure: you seem like a well intentioned guy and I don't feel this way about you. I even agree with the sentiment that the video isn't necessary here (but people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - I'm no saint). 

That said, I would have expected that before proclaiming you've asked posts so be censored, you considered that you ran the risk of coming off like thought police from 1984. Judging by your apparent surprise, I kinda doubt it.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Keeping perspective of what the data means, rather than just panicing over what the headline says, is an important thing. Wear a mask, practice proper hand and face hygiene, use social distancing, and take a deep breathe on occasion when reading the headlines that many organizations put out there


So 6ft or 1m because, there are conflicting views on that number too.


----------



## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Full disclosure: you seem like a well intentioned guy and I don't feel this way about you. I even agree with the sentiment that the video isn't necessary here (but people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - I'm no saint).
> 
> That said, I would have expected that before proclaiming you've asked posts so be censored, you considered that you ran the risk of coming off like thought police from 1984. Judging by your apparent surprise, I kinda doubt it.


Wasn’t surprised, and “thought police” is dramatic. It’s not too much to ask that coo-coo COVID denier garbage not be in the forum. There are sooooo many places on the internet for that. Other posters here talking about the vibe going downhill are talking about crap like that.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wasn’t surprised, and “thought police” is dramatic. It’s not too much to ask that coo-coo COVID denier garbage not be in the forum. There are sooooo many places on the internet for that. Other posters here talking about the vibe going downhill are talking about crap like that.


I have been watching this thread and there are a lot of doom and gloom views in it.  I have been pretty quiet but i am sick of seeing the one sided views and then if someone posts a view from another perspective it is attacked.  It is all about the science until the science does not fit the narrative.  This thing is infectious more than the flu but it is only slightly more deadly than the flu per a peer viewed paper in the WHO journal.  Did you read the paper from the Danish journal about masks.  The data showed no statistical difference, however the authors stated that is was not a bad idea to wear one.  Paraphrasing of course.  I could go on and on about how things are presented only side.  There are so many news items that are grabbed from non-peer review papers that gets put out as fact.  Science has always been about differing points of view that can be supported by data and then discussed.  The media and all of them only want readers and viewers to go and keep them on both sides.

I could go on and on about things.  Efficacy vs Effectiveness of Vaccines and the PCR test (aka golden test) is a lab test and not really a diagnostic test.

People are already telling posting on Cannon's Facebook that skiing will be a super spreader event and out of staters should stay.  Just like they did to close NH resorts in the spring.  If you don't want to go just stay home and stay cloistered.  Let some of us have some fun in environment that has not been proven to spread anything.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wasn’t surprised, and “thought police” is dramatic. It’s not too much to ask that coo-coo COVID denier garbage not be in the forum. There are sooooo many places on the internet for that. Other posters here talking about the vibe going downhill are talking about crap like that.


It's really not. Your world view bends pretty far one way, and that guy bends pretty far the other. You asked for the perspective you disagree with to be censored. It's as cut and dry as it comes. 

We're mostly adults of above average intellect here. It's a luxury sport board after all. I don't get why you think that people need or appreciate your filter. I'm sure some people with your world view like it, but that ties back to tribal rot... A simple "come on - this video doesn't need to be here" would have been plenty, but you proudly went the extra mile to call in the censors.   

I remember this guy Grillled Steeze Sandwich, or something like that, getting banned for being a 9/11 conspiracy nut back in the day. Other than that, I can't think of anyone being asked to censor or ban people like I've seen since the pandemic set in. Frankly, I give people of all stripes the benefit of the doubt given how cooped up we all are. That said, the politics are gotten out of control, (and again, I'm no saint), but you have not been part of the solution (of course, along with the usual right leaning suspects, too).


----------



## kingslug (Nov 19, 2020)

Steezy Doug..wonder where he is. I skied with him..guy was good but had..interesting views on things.


----------



## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> It's really not. Your world view bends pretty far one way, and that guy bends pretty far the other. You asked for the perspective you disagree with to be censored. It's as cut and dry as it comes.
> 
> We're mostly adults of above average intellect here. It's a luxury sport board after all. I don't get why you think that people need or appreciate your filter. I'm sure some people with your world view like it, but that ties back to tribal rot... A simple "come on - this video doesn't need to be here" would have been plenty, but you proudly went the extra mile to call in the censors.
> 
> I remember this guy Grillled Steeze Sandwich, or something like that, getting banned for being a 9/11 conspiracy nut back in the day. Other than that, I can't think of anyone being asked to censor or ban people like I've seen since the pandemic set in. Frankly, I give people of all stripes the benefit of the doubt given how cooped up we all are. That said, the politics are gotten out of control, (and again, I'm no saint), but you have not been part of the solution (of course, along with the usual right leaning suspects, too).


We’ll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> It's really not. Your world view bends pretty far one way, and that guy bends pretty far the other. You asked for the perspective you disagree with to be censored. It's as cut and dry as it comes.
> 
> We're mostly adults of above average intellect here. It's a luxury sport board after all. I don't get why you think that people need or appreciate your filter. I'm sure some people with your world view like it, but that ties back to tribal rot... A simple "come on - this video doesn't need to be here" would have been plenty, but you proudly went the extra mile to call in the censors.
> 
> I remember this guy Grillled Steeze Sandwich, or something like that, getting banned for being a 9/11 conspiracy nut back in the day. Other than that, I can't think of anyone being asked to censor or ban people like I've seen since the pandemic set in. Frankly, I give people of all stripes the benefit of the doubt given how cooped up we all are. That said, the politics are gotten out of control, (and again, I'm no saint), but you have not been part of the solution (of course, along with the usual right leaning suspects, too).


I reported his report.  LOL


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> We’ll have to agree to disagree.


Yes that is the way things work in human nature befor that last 20 years or so.  It has gotten so bad that if you have the same view than the person is offended and goes name calling from both sides.  I had to this happen in our extended family and it is the reason that my family will be having turkey day in Franconia.


----------



## Los (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wasn’t surprised, and “thought police” is dramatic. It’s not too much to ask that coo-coo COVID denier garbage not be in the forum. There are sooooo many places on the internet for that. Other posters here talking about the vibe going downhill are talking about crap like that.


I have zero problem with someone’s opinion being derided, if you think it’s worthy of derision. But to effectively call the police on that person to stop them from voicing their opinion at all is disgusting.


----------



## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

Los said:


> I have zero problem with someone’s opinion being derided, if you think it’s worthy of derision. But to effectively call the police on that person to stop them from voicing their opinion at all is disgusting.


You keep being personal. Getting into it with that guy is pointless. Mods aren’t the police and I’ve never reported a post in any forum. I also told him straight because I thought it was the forthright thing to do, which took about 5 seconds of consideration. Forums do get moderated for various reasons.

Nobody is restricting freedoms, certainly not me. That’s another overly-dramatic take.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 19, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Did you read the paper from the Danish journal about masks.  The data showed no statistical difference, however the authors stated that is was not a bad idea to wear one.  Paraphrasing of course.  I could go on and on about how things are presented only side.



That study is very specific and proves very little with all the numerous limitations of how the study was performed and what it was specifically intended to test.

Didn't actually test mask effectiveness itself
Was performed in a location where most people around you didn't wear masks (so mainly testing whether masks significantly protect the wearer)
Was performed during a time when covid numbers were relatively low (so risk was low to begin with)
Was performed while people were actively performing social distancing with many things still closed or on lockdown (again reducing risk to begin with)
Was designed specifically to test whether it reduced risk by 50% or more (therefore there could actually be benefits of smaller amounts, but the study wasn't large enough to adequately measure that)
Relied on self-reporting of people on whether they followed the instructions and wore the masks or wore them properly (so who knows if they did or not)
The problem is that people focus on studies like that to help their "case" that masks are pointless (which isn't at all what the study says). They take the results out of context and don't adequately understand it. And people taking things out of context and spreading inaccurate information is a big reason why we're where we are today. If people didn't try to constantly claim that "masks are useless", maybe we'd be in a much better situation than what we are. And the problem with the Internet in general is that it makes it incredibly easy for that inaccurate information to go viral and be shared with people who won't take the time to check into it any further on their own.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 19, 2020)

So heart disease kills more. It's not the first time we've done crazy shit in response to media hype. 3,000 were killed on 9/11 and we spent 6 trillion creating ISIS in response. How did that makes sense.

The media's reaction is a counter reaction to "other" extreme forces. We embraced those forces and now we have to deal with this.  If you want moderation, you have to be moderate yourself.

I edited my last post, I was kidding about James Woods. I trust Fauci more. I don't see why that specific 75 year old guy would be bullshitting us.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> We’ll have to agree to disagree.


Guess so. From my perspective, you're basically just left-wing BG. It kinda cracks me up to see you two go at it. It's a bit of a guilty pleasure.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> That study is very specific and proves very little with all the numerous limitations of how the study was performed and what it was specifically intended to test.
> 
> Didn't actually test mask effectiveness itself
> Was performed in a location where most people around you didn't wear masks (so mainly testing whether masks significantly protect the wearer)
> ...


I was not reporting it as one way or another.  I was pointing out that there other views.  The paper states its own downfalls. Your points are valid.  Conflicting view needs to be discussed.  I stated that authors did not say masks were a bad idea.

So here is one.  Scientifically explain why cases have gone up within states with mask mandates at exponential rate if masks are suppose to help.  I have not found a paper that explains this. Peer reviewed.  BTW, I wear one when inside but not outside when there is no crowd because I want to.


----------



## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Guess so. From my perspective, you're basically just left-wing BG. It kinda cracks me up to see you two go at it. It's a bit of a guilty pleasure.


Since we’re sharing, I’ve viewed you as overzealous about characterizing yourself as super-politically-objective and clear-eyed. But I’ve been wrong before.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 19, 2020)

Puck it said:


> I was not reporting it as one way or another.  I was pointing out that there other views.  The paper states its own downfalls. Your points are valid.  Conflicting view needs to be discussed.  I stated that authors did not say masks were a bad idea.
> 
> So here is one.  Scientifically explain why cases have gone up within states with mask mandates at exponential rate if masks are suppose to help.  I have not found a paper that explains this. Peer reviewed.  BTW, I wear one when inside but not outside when there is no crowd because I want to.


I didn't say you were. However a LOT of people that think this is a hoax or are anti-mask ARE using that study as "proof" that masks aren't needed.

To your second question...it isn't my job to explain that. I could hypothesize some potential reasons though (people think a mask is the ONLY thing they need to do, people let their guard down with people they "know", people don't follow the mask mandates, etc).


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I didn't say you were. However a LOT of people that think this is a hoax or are anti-mask ARE using that study as "proof" that masks aren't needed.
> 
> To your second question...it isn't my job to explain that. I could hypothesize some potential reasons though (people think a mask is the ONLY thing they need to do, people let their guard down with people they "know", people don't follow the mask mandates, etc).


You are correct in a way and that is the government answer also which now putting the burden of the spread on the individual.  The other is masks can be any material.  Not being washed. Touching it.  I think if you had a well controlled group for test than yes but people are not a well controlled group so I think you find that effectiveness will be below 20% in the real world. I am waiting for the paper some day.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Since we’re sharing, I’ve viewed you as overzealous about characterizing yourself as super-politically-objective and clear-eyed. But I’ve been wrong before.


I figured. I've told you before that we're all biased, and that my bias is that I'm a small government capitalist/libertarian. It makes me more disposed to the right than the left because the right at lest pretends to be small government (though less so under the orange man). But, I don't fit in with the Republican social program. Therefore, I don't feel allegiance to a tribe. It's also where I get my disdain for the idea that people in power of any stripe care about us. They care about power (sorry DHS and team - way off topic). 

If you sense that I think I'm obnoxiously clear eyed about COVID, it's probably because I grew up listening to my parents swap stories about the surgeries they performed all day at the dinner table. I know what actual scientific command/rigor looks like (i.e. way beyond my level or the level of the overwhelming majority of this board). As an investor, my job is essentially a fact finding mission, and I spent the early part of my career building financial projection models. Going into the pandemic I was intimately familiar with the fact that projections are always wrong - the issue is by how much? A huge part of the job is identifying BS from investment bankers and management teams, and a huge part of the world today is being inundated with BS news to sort through.

Again, you seem like a well-intentioned guy. It's apparent that you took my last comment as a jab. While I think it's directionally accurate, it was harsher than I needed to be. So to that end, my apologies.


----------



## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> Wasn’t surprised, and “thought police” is dramatic. It’s not too much to ask that coo-coo COVID denier garbage not be in the forum. There are sooooo many places on the internet for that. Other posters here talking about the vibe going downhill are talking about crap like that.


How about hysterical little COVID snitches and bitches like yourself Edd?


----------



## JimG. (Nov 19, 2020)

abc said:


> I had one such at one time.
> 
> I went to stand in front of my cart!
> 
> ...


Ha I would look weird in the Christmas Tree store with ski poles.


----------



## Edd (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Again, you seem like a well-intentioned guy. It's apparent that you took my last comment as a jab. While I think it's directionally accurate, it was harsher than I needed to be. So to that end, my apologies.


No hard feelings here.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 19, 2020)

Wow and I thought I rambled on. I see things went downhill here.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 19, 2020)

HowieT2 said:


> Could you share the data indicating that the virus is not spreading in restaurant settings?  I haven't seen anything to that effect but have seen case studies documenting viral transmission in restaurants.
> It seems to me, indoor dining is problematic because diners can't wear masks and are expelling air and virus from the lungs when speaking.  This is in contrast to public transportation like trains and planes, where people wear masks and dont speak much.  same thing with classrooms.


If it was being spread in a restaurant environment believe me I would have it. We eat out 3 times a week on average.


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I figured. I've told you before that we're all biased, and that my bias is that I'm a small government capitalist/libertarian. It makes me more disposed to the right than the left because the right at lest pretends to be small government (though less so under the orange man). But, I don't fit in with the Republican social program. Therefore, I don't feel allegiance to a tribe. It's also where I get my disdain for the idea that people in power of any stripe care about us. They care about power (sorry DHS and team - way off topic).
> 
> If you sense that I think I'm obnoxiously clear eyed about COVID, it's probably because I grew up listening to my parents swap stories about the surgeries they performed all day at the dinner table. I know what actual scientific command/rigor looks like (i.e. way beyond my level or the level of the overwhelming majority of this board). As an investor, my job is essentially a fact finding mission, and I spent the early part of my career building financial projection models. Going into the pandemic I was intimately familiar with the fact that projections are always wrong - the issue is by how much? A huge part of the job is identifying BS from investment bankers and management teams, and a huge part of the world today is being inundated with BS news to sort through.
> 
> Again, you seem like a well-intentioned guy. It's apparent that you took my last comment as a jab. While I think it's directionally accurate, it was harsher than I needed to be. So to that end, my apologies.


I am physicist and I understand data can be manipulated and presented so that things can look the one wants.  My biggest peeve is the media presenting graphs based on percentages when the sample size is small and stasitically not valid. Just one example.  Another was the Irish and U.K. lockdown data used. Another topic.


----------



## Harvey (Nov 19, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> If it was being spread in a restaurant environment believe me I would have it. We eat out 3 times a week on average.


That data sample is certainly projectable across 350 million Americans.


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

Puck it said:


> I am physicist and I understand data can be manipulated and presented so that things can look the one wants.  My biggest peeve is the media presenting graphs based on percentages when the sample size is small and stasitically not valid. Just one example.  Another was the Irish and U.K. lockdown data used. Another topic.


I hear you. It also cracks me up how many weird but flawed studies make the news that are totally innocuous. When my in-laws built their new house, mother in law was talking about how she was glad they have multiple levels after hearing that people that live in multi-floor homes through retirement live better in old age or longer, something to that effect. I kinda just nodded, but couldn't help but thinking that the driver obviously wasn't anything to do with choosing a house. It was that the population that lives in multi-floor houses is likely much healthier (eliminates many wheelchair bound people for example) and wealthier (multi story are larger by-and-large).


----------



## Not Sure (Nov 19, 2020)

A song to cheer up all the grumpy deprived skiers / riders


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I hear you. It also cracks me up how many weird but flawed studies make the news that are totally innocuous. When my in-laws built their new house, mother in law was talking about how she was glad they have multiple levels after hearing that people that live in multi-floor homes through retirement live better in old age or longer, something to that effect. I kinda just nodded, but couldn't help but thinking that the driver obviously wasn't anything to do with choosing a house. It was that the population that lives in multi-floor houses is likely much healthier (eliminates many wheelchair bound people for example) and wealthier (multi story are larger by-and-large).


Lol.  The one that got me the other was that your dog can pass covid because they are not hygienetic.  In the same study, they said online grocery could give covid.  That was in the byline and obviously not peer reviewed.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 19, 2020)

By January this US is going to be like old Germany, we all will need to carry traveling papers.  Instead of the KGB is will be the CVD checking them.

Thought I would throw some laughter in....


----------



## Puck it (Nov 19, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> By January this US is going to be like old Germany, we all will need to carry traveling papers.  Instead of the KGB is will be the CVD checking them.
> 
> Thought I would throw some laughter in....


Vee need to see vour papers!


----------



## EPB (Nov 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> That study is very specific and proves very little with all the numerous limitations of how the study was performed and what it was specifically intended to test.
> 
> Didn't actually test mask effectiveness itself
> Was performed in a location where most people around you didn't wear masks (so mainly testing whether masks significantly protect the wearer)
> ...


You do a great job of doing your homework. I can't remember if I've said that before, but it's impressive.


----------



## Nick (Nov 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Wow and I thought I rambled on. I see things went downhill here.


jesus. this thread is


----------



## SLyardsale (Nov 19, 2020)

Nick said:


> jesus. this thread is


let em go... very entertaining...what else we gonna do?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

Edd said:


> I reported it.* Masks ineffective? Save it for Breitbart.*



I mean, I definitely believe masks work.  I was the one who wrote about it here in March even when we were being told NOT to wear one by the "experts", AND that I thought it made no sense that they supposedly worked only by protected others & not the wearer.  I say this so you & others dont attack what I'm about to say as anti-masker propaganda.  Which is the fact is you'd be shocked at how little evidence-based, statistical, medical research there is to confirm this.  VERY LITTLE.  Despite what you're being breathlessly told, it's almost all anecdotal.  Pretty strong anecdotal though.  There is, however, a challenge study that's about to initiate in the U.K. whereby they intentionally try to give COVID19-naive patients COVID19.  The volunteers do get paid if anyone's interested!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

abc said:


> If I go skiing, and run into people who insist on getting too close on the lift line, I WILL use my poles to "enforce a bubble" around myself!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

Los said:


> *You disagree with something, so you want it banned?*



That's roughly 50% of America; well, closer to 30% if we're being technical.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm really hoping vaccine distribution starts in meaningful numbers, soon.



The term, "meaningful" is subjective, but mid-to-late January.  Healthcare workers will begin receiving it in December.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

Harvey said:


> I still don't trust him more than Fauci.



Nor do I, but Fauci's performance throughout COVID19 taken in its' entirety has been pretty awful IMHO.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

Puck it said:


> So 6ft or 1m because, there are conflicting views on that number too.



Six feet?  I'll take the over. 

The 6 feet thing is only because our "government masters" think that's all we can handle, but when talking about millions of aerosolized nanometer-sized viral particulates being expelled violently into the air, and which can linger for up to 3 hours without airflow....... yeah, I'll take the over.

There are reasons this thing is so infectious, science just hasnt been able to prove all of them yet.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> If it was being spread in a restaurant environment believe me I would have it. We eat out 3 times a week on average.



If salmonella was spread in a restaurant believe me I would have got it at least once in my life.  I've eaten in restaurants thousands of times.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 19, 2020)

Puck it said:


> *I am physicist and I understand data can be manipulated and presented so that things can look the one wants.  My biggest peeve is the media presenting graphs based on percentages when the sample size is small and stasitically not valid. Just one example. *



My favorite is how the media switches data back & forth between total integers & per-capita figures, but always presenting it whichever way will make America look the worst possible with COVID19.

This example has at least been illustrative to me that either Americans in general arent solid at math or that most people are simply dumb, because I've noticed very few people have figured this out.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> My favorite is how the media switches data back & forth between total integers & per-capita figures, but always presenting it whichever way will make America look the worst possible with COVID19.
> 
> This example has at least been illustrative to me that either Americans in general arent solid at math or that most people are simply dumb, because I've noticed very few people have figured this out.


The "what's the most doom and gloom headline today" topic is so blatantly visible in my home state of CT by the local media.

If the total number, or sometime even percent of positive tests is up, that's the lead headline default all along.

If the percent positivity rate is down that day, but say the number of new hospital admissions for COVID is up, the new hospital admissions number is the lead headline.

Anytime the total number of deaths passes a "milestone number" (usually the next 100) thats the lead headline.

What never is mentioned is how many, both in terms of gross numbers and percentage have recovered.

It is a situation of scare the people and keep them scared in whatever way possible. Which likely in the not too distant future is going to take a MASSIVE effort on the part of the media to flip their messaging to get people out for vaccination and also back out and into a much more normal way of life and supporting so many businesses that may still be around to support


----------



## icecoast1 (Nov 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nor do I, but Fauci's performance throughout COVID19 taken in its' entirety has been pretty awful IMHO.



My personal Fauci favorite was the interviews of him saying in February that this was nothing to worry about and wouldn't be a big problem for the USA.   I wonder if those interviews can still be found or if big tech has censored them off the face of the earth?


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> By January this US is going to be like old Germany, we all will need to carry traveling papers.  Instead of the KGB is will be the CVD checking them.
> 
> Thought I would throw some laughter in....


“Was it over when Germany bombed Pearl Harbor?”


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If salmonella was spread in a restaurant believe me I would have got it at least once in my life.  I've eaten in restaurants thousands of times.


That's a terrible analogy.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 20, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> That's a terrible analogy.


How about I smoked for 50 years and never got cancer?


----------



## Not Sure (Nov 20, 2020)

Certain people here might be ok with this ?


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> How about I smoked for 50 years and never got cancer?


Better


----------



## EPB (Nov 20, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Steezy Doug..wonder where he is. I skied with him..guy was good but had..interesting views on things.


Haha - I was pretty young before he got banned. I probably lurked around a bit before making an account, but I remember being perplexed as to how to interact with a dude like that. Funny you got the chance to make some turns with him.

Threecy came to mind later on, too. He had interesting insights into the industry but you kinda had to pull them out of some serious ramblings. I'm foggy on the details, but he absolutely would not let it go that the state of NH paid for a custom new double chair for Mittersill rather than buying a 30 year old used double when it re-opened. I can't remember if that was "the hill he died on" but it was definitely a part of it. That was probably 8-10 years ago now.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> How about I smoked for 50 years and never got cancer?


Although my point is that the percentage is low. Unlike smoking.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> How about I smoked for 50 years and never got cancer?



We could always go with the "I don't know why I'm fat, it must be something glandular, since I always order a Diet Coke with my 2 Big Macs and Large fries I have for lunch every day" line!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 20, 2020)

non-sequeter - i quit cigarettes in april. i only would smoke en route to and from work, and when ripping drunk. mostly secretive from my significant other. being forced to work from home together in the midst of a respiratory virus pandemic was a good kick in the pants. it was surprisingly easy. one day i just stopped and that was that. 

cannabis intake is at collegiate levels. also due to constantly being home.


----------



## EPB (Nov 20, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> non-sequeter - i quit cigarettes in april. i only would smoke en route to and from work, and when ripping drunk. mostly secretive from my significant other. being forced to work from home together in the midst of a respiratory virus pandemic was a good kick in the pants. it was surprisingly easy. one day i just stopped and that was that.
> 
> cannabis intake is at collegiate levels. also due to constantly being home.


Good for you! 

I had a casual dipping habit for a little while that I kicked for good when the now-wife moved in. Had a very similar experience to you. IIRC, your dad's a dentist - I had many a thought about being ashamed if my parents/gf knew. Now if only I'd stop drinking as much...


----------



## 1dog (Nov 20, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Certain people here might be ok with this ?


Nice timber frame. saw Orange Man on chart - follow Euros - they know - Many Americans are half-wits. The twice as high living standard of Europeans? Pay no attention to that freedom BS.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Good for you!
> 
> I had a casual dipping habit for a little while that I kicked for good when the now-wife moved in. Had a very similar experience to you. IIRC, your dad's a dentist - I had many a thought about being ashamed if my parents/gf knew. Now if only I'd stop drinking as much...



good memory. yea both my parents are dentists and i always knew that they knew about my smoking because of my teeth and it was this sort of unspoken shame. both parents smoke pot, my mom even more than i do, but the cigs i assume have their own unique teeth staining grossness


----------



## 1dog (Nov 20, 2020)

drjeff said:


> The "what's the most doom and gloom headline today" topic is so blatantly visible in my home state of CT by the local media.
> 
> If the total number, or sometime even percent of positive tests is up, that's the lead headline default all along.
> 
> ...


Most of us are educated and entertained by the posters here - much rather hear from those I don'ts eye to eye with, but all posts ( in a Covid string) seems relatively appropriate. 

This is free and open debate. Thankfully responses have a lot of humor in there as well. ' We Are All Gonna Die' is just great -My response to those who say 'Have a nice day.' to be 'Have a great eternity'. Speaking of Jesus. . . . . .

Here's another point of view - ( with admitted 1% false signatures)









						Great Barrington Declaration and Petition
					

As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection




					gbdeclaration.org


----------



## abc (Nov 20, 2020)

1dog said:


> Here's another point of view - ( with admitted 1% false signatures)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I'm not sure I buy the "herd immunity through getting infected" approach, the practical steps are spot-on, and should be adopted. 

Sadly, many are not. 

"Adopting measures to protect the vulnerable should be the central aim of public health responses to COVID-19. By way of example, nursing homes should use staff with acquired immunity and perform frequent PCR testing of other staff and all visitors. Staff rotation should be minimized. Retired people living at home should have groceries and other essentials delivered to their home. When possible, they should meet family members outside rather than inside. A comprehensive and detailed list of measures, including approaches to multi-generational households, can be implemented, and is well within the scope and capability of public health professionals. "

It's not people don't want to follow rules. But many of the rules do cause hardships for some. Little attempt were made to provide support to make it practical for people to follow the rules. Sure, people who are resourceful are able to find workaround to abide the restriction. Not everyone can or have the resource to do so. With so little support to address the issues due to the restrictions, it's not surprising many just throw up their hands and say "I can't, therefore I won't"! Bad for everybody.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 20, 2020)

I found it very easy to quite drinking in April. Didn't go out anywhere..stopped going to the liquor store. And watched The Stop Drinking Expert on youtube..and man did that wake me up. Watched on  Sunday..Quit on Monday..havent regretted it. Saves a lot of money too.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 20, 2020)

i stopped drinking september 1 as part of a 75 day diet which just concluded. no added or artificial sugar, no wheat carbs, no alcohol, lots of water. I've reintroduced limited amounts of alcohol, mainly beer which is the only thing i missed all fall. lost about 15 lbs. also rode my bike every day for the first 45 days or so until a combination of it getting colder, darker, and me getting lazier


----------



## JimG. (Nov 20, 2020)

I have the solution for all of this...all you AZ health and science experts should take over the US government and save the rest of us. Why are you all wasting time here diddling around on AZ trying to save us ignorant lemmings?

Bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks.


----------



## slatham (Nov 20, 2020)

VT Governor Scott just got a question on Ski protocols at his press conference. Key message to me was 1) Ski areas have strict guidelines that were recently agreed and announced and 2) there was no hint of any change from any comments he and his associates made. The focus was attestation of compliance to quarantine rules.


----------



## Brewbeer (Nov 20, 2020)

People don't catch heart disease or cancer from other people.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> “Was it over when Germany bombed Pearl Harbor?”


I guess Hitler won't be able to enjoy his powder at Sugarbush this year.  LOL


----------



## Harvey (Nov 20, 2020)

That is fake news. It was Whiteface.


----------



## abc (Nov 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I have the solution for all of this...all you AZ health and science experts should take over the US government and save the rest of us.


I'll settle for even ONE of the AZ'er in charge of the government!

It would be a better situation than the current one!


----------



## JimG. (Nov 20, 2020)

abc said:


> I'll settle for even ONE of the AZ'er in charge of the government!
> 
> It would be a better situation than the current one!


Happy 420!


----------



## 1dog (Nov 20, 2020)

abc said:


> I'll settle for even ONE of the AZ'er in charge of the government!
> 
> It would be a better situation than the current one!


Reminds me of the quote attributed to William F. Buckley ' I'll take the 1st 100 names in the phone book for Congress over the faculty at Harvard any day.'


A good rejoinder to the 'We are all gonna die' tune: https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/11/van-morrison-video-no-more-lockdown-frontpagemagcom-0/


----------



## kingslug (Nov 20, 2020)

I vote for this guy


----------



## jaytrem (Nov 20, 2020)

Brewbeer said:


> People don't catch heart disease or cancer from other people.


Cancer debatable...









						Oral sex and throat cancer: Links, facts, and research
					

Some studies show that oral sex raises throat cancer risk, while others suggest there is no association. This article discusses oral sex and cancer.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> That's a terrible analogy.



Except it isnt.  The fact you eat in restaurants 3 times per week & havent caught COVID19 is completely meaningless.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> non-sequeter - i quit cigarettes in april. i only would smoke en route to and from work, and when ripping drunk. mostly secretive from my significant other. being forced to work from home together in the midst of a respiratory virus pandemic was a good kick in the pants. it was surprisingly easy. one day i just stopped and that was that.
> 
> cannabis intake is at collegiate levels. also due to constantly being home.



Congrats on beating tobacco.  Hopefully you beat pot soon too.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> good memory. yea both my parents are dentists and i always knew that they knew about my smoking because of my teeth and it was this sort of unspoken shame. both parents smoke pot, my mom even more than i do, but the cigs i assume have their own unique teeth staining grossness



I dont GET this.  My best friend's wife is a dentist (and I've known her since she was 12 years old), and SHE smokes.  WTactualHell?!?!?!?!?!?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2020)

kingslug said:


> *I found it very easy to quite drinking in April. Didn't go out anywhere..stopped going to the liquor store. *



*^ QUITTER*


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2020)

1dog said:


> Reminds me of the quote attributed to William F. Buckley ' *I'll take the 1st 100 names in the phone book for Congress over the faculty at Harvard any day.'*



I never heard that, but it's pure genius, and so true.  We'd be Venezuela in < 20 years were Harvard in charge.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 21, 2020)

Brewbeer said:


> People don't catch heart disease or cancer from other people.



You can definitely catch cancer from other people. We know this.  This isnt 1834.

  ((((said in Chevy Chase voice))))  This isnt 1834 is it?


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 21, 2020)

What's going on in Canada?

BC is now recommending against travel within the province, not just between provinces.  I think Revelstoke is opening soon, but their social media posts are indicating maybe they are not (they have tons of snow).

On top of that, their season pass product currently offers no protection for intra province travel restrictions.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Except it isnt.  The fact you eat in restaurants 3 times per week & havent caught COVID19 is completely meaningless.


Meaningless? It means the percentage is low. If it was high I and all the others I eat with would have probably gotten it.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 21, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> Meaningless? It means the percentage is low. If it was high I and all the others I eat with would have probably gotten it.


only 10% of life long smokers get lung cancer. Do you want to chance that?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2020)

Two statements can be simultaneously true:
1) You haven’t gotten COVID (that you know of) from dining out
2) Dining out increases your risk of contracting COVID.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 21, 2020)

billo said:


> What's going on in Canada?
> 
> BC is now recommending against travel within the province, not just between provinces.  I think Revelstoke is opening soon, but their social media posts are indicating maybe they are not (they have tons of snow).
> 
> On top of that, their season pass product currently offers no protection for intra province travel restrictions.


Canada probably feels like they live in the apartment above a meth lab right now.


----------



## 1dog (Nov 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> only 10% of life long smokers get lung cancer. Do you want to chance that?


I'll never forget a WSJ piece at least 15-20 years ago. Insurance Institute of America did a study - average person has 3 high cost medical issues in life. . . . .  I forget the bar, but say it was $15K - something close to that.  I couldn't figure out why my company-provided healthcare was same whether you smoked or not. Made no sense. Life insurance of course is higher if you smoke. 
Bottom line: Average person has 3 of those costly medical issues ( heart attack, cancer, car accident, ski accident, etc.)

Smokers average one. Most don't make it to a second or third - hence cheaper to medically insure over time.

Actuaries.


----------



## EPB (Nov 21, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont GET this.  My best friend's wife is a dentist (and I've known her since she was 12 years old), and SHE smokes.  WTactualHell?!?!?!?!?!?


We're all human and have our vices. It's one thing to come to a conclusion to do/not do something, but it's another to actually refrain from doing it.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 21, 2020)

Ive seen nurses and doctors..smoking outside of a cancer ward...


----------



## 1dog (Nov 21, 2020)

kingslug said:


> Ive seen nurses and doctors..smoking outside of a cancer ward...


Have had quite a few medical personnel as customers over the years - why do nurses ( mostly nurses) smoke so much? Reason they always give: We see it all, and its pretty obvious there are so many things that will kill a person - if it ain't lung cancer its this or that. . . . .  and they really enjoy it.

I quit the day my 1 year old came over, lifted the pack of Kools up, placed them down, looked at me puffin' away. . . .  my parents didn't smoke.

May 22  - many many years ago.  No reason for coffee or sex if you can't blow a fag after. . . . . .  was so proud of myself - until a month later I realized I was smoking a bag a weed a week. . .so late June I quit that too. . . .  save a lot of money. . . .  could never do Middle Earth T to B without stopping if I still did. . . . .


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 21, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> only 10% of life long smokers get lung cancer. Do you want to chance that?


You can get more then one type of cancer from smoking.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2020)

Quarantine is expected to change the face of Vermont skiing this season
					

Many people who purchased season passes are now asking for refunds or credits because the quarantine will stop them from traveling to Vermont to ski.



					vtdigger.org


----------



## mbedle (Nov 22, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Quarantine is expected to change the face of Vermont skiing this season
> 
> 
> Many people who purchased season passes are now asking for refunds or credits because the quarantine will stop them from traveling to Vermont to ski.
> ...


I wonder if Vail is giving back the money for Vermont's quarantine. Anybody request one yet?


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 22, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Quarantine is expected to change the face of Vermont skiing this season
> 
> 
> Many people who purchased season passes are now asking for refunds or credits because the quarantine will stop them from traveling to Vermont to ski.
> ...


I like all the softball interviews they had on there. Nobody ripping the financial suicide VT is embracing or that no way the mega areas will blow snow the same all season.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 22, 2020)

My condo association sent out a letter after talking with killington stating the season pass refunds were "extraordinary" this week do to the travel restrictions.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 22, 2020)

mbedle said:


> I wonder if Vail is giving back the money for Vermont's quarantine. Anybody request one yet?


From the article the answer is "no" because as far as they're concerned, you have choices in other states.



> Jamie Storrs, a senior communications manager for Vail, said Tuesday that season pass sales are up about 18% at all of the company’s resorts collectively. Vail isn’t issuing refunds for Epic passholders who missed a September deadline to cancel.
> 
> 
> “If someone is in Connecticut and can’t abide by the quarantine restrictions Vermont has in place, we do have Hunter Mountain in New York and several ski resorts in New Hampshire,” he said.


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> From the article the answer is "no" because as far as they're concerned, you have choices in other states.


Exactly


----------



## abc (Nov 22, 2020)

> “If someone is in Connecticut and can’t abide by the quarantine restrictions Vermont has in place, we do have Hunter Mountain in New York and several ski resorts in New Hampshire,” he said.


Even if they live an hour from Mount Snow in VT which is under quarantine restriction, whilst Hunter and Sunapee are both further away? (not to mention both are considerably smaller than Mount Snow)

How about some mountains in Indiana that's not restricted? Should that count as a justification for not providing a refund?

That's a really poor response.


That said, here's a completely opposite anecdotic data point:

After waiting for about an hour on music, I was able to talk to a Vail customer representative. I had several questions, which she answered. One of which was whether travel restriction will be covered by Epic's insurance policy. *I was told it will be covered*.

I pressed further, pointing out the terms and condition only explicitly list resort closure, not travel restriction for cross state travel. Her reply? "Epic Assurance was designed for situations where the pass holder can't get to the mountain". She further suggests it would be covered under the "Personal" clause, more specifically, the "stay-at-home" clause.

I had sent an e-mail to see if I get that same response in writing. But haven't gotten any reply yet.

If I get a response that it's indeed COVERED in Epic Assurance, it'll strongly motivating me to get a pass.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 22, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> My condo association sent out a letter after talking with killington stating the season pass refunds were "extraordinary" this week do to the travel restrictions.


I got my refund.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)

i dont know if funny is the word, but its something something to me that the mad river valley is a darker color than nyc on this covid map:


----------



## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont know if funny is the word, but its something something to me that the mad river valley is a darker color than nyc on this covid map:
> 
> View attachment 42617


A bit misleading because the MRV is in the same county as larger cities like Montpelier and Barre. Barre in particular has had the 2nd most cases in the state. Warren has had 8 total cases. Waitsfield has had 9. Fayston 0.


----------



## abc (Nov 23, 2020)

cdskier said:


> A bit misleading because the MRV is in the same county as larger cities like Montpelier and Barre. Barre in particular has had the 2nd most cases in the state. Warren has had 8 total cases. Waitsfield has had 9. Fayston 0.


No matter how you slice it, how can a small city like Barre have more cases/capital than a mega city like NYC?


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 23, 2020)

abc said:


> No matter how you slice it, how can a small city like Barre have more cases/capital than a mega city like NYC?


It’s a per capita metric.


----------



## abc (Nov 23, 2020)

You're saying there're more cases per capital in Barre? 

What a shock!


----------



## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

abc said:


> No matter how you slice it, how can a small city like Barre have more cases/capital than a mega city like NYC?


Simple...in a smaller city it doesn't take THAT many cases to get to a higher rate per capita.

Barre had 103 cases in the past week alone...which is about 1% of the population of that city. NYC meanwhile had 23K in the last 2 weeks, but that represents only .27% of the population in a city with 8.4M people.


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 23, 2020)

abc said:


> You're saying there're more cases per capital in Barre?
> 
> What a shock!


CAPITA NOT CAPITAL


----------



## gittist (Nov 23, 2020)

This is on the Vermont ACCD webpage at https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel:  "Travelers arriving to Vermont who have not completed a per-arrival quarantine..."    

Has anyone seen any other official mention of a per-arrival quarantine?   It seems to me that by the wording one could stay home in accordance with the Vermont guidelines and forgo the in state quarantine. I'm sure I'm wrong since 2+2 is rarely 4 when it comes to what people really mean.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 23, 2020)

gittist said:


> This is on the Vermont ACCD webpage at https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel:  "Travelers arriving to Vermont who have not completed a per-arrival quarantine..."
> 
> Has anyone seen any other official mention of a per-arrival quarantine?   It seems to me that by the wording one could stay home in accordance with the Vermont guidelines and forgo the in state quarantine. I'm sure I'm wrong since 2+2 is rarely 4 when it comes to what people really mean.



Yes, that is exactly what it means. VT has allowed you to quarantine at home before coming to VT to satisfy their COVID requirements for quite a while as long as you're within driving distance and use your own private car.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)




----------



## gittist (Nov 23, 2020)

Thanks


cdskier said:


> Yes, that is exactly what it means. VT has allowed you to quarantine at home before coming to VT to satisfy their COVID requirements for quite a while as long as you're within driving distance and use your own private car.


Thank you


----------



## Zermatt (Nov 23, 2020)

gittist said:


> This is on the Vermont ACCD webpage at https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel:  "Travelers arriving to Vermont who have not completed a per-arrival quarantine..."
> 
> Has anyone seen any other official mention of a per-arrival quarantine?   It seems to me that by the wording one could stay home in accordance with the Vermont guidelines and forgo the in state quarantine. I'm sure I'm wrong since 2+2 is rarely 4 when it comes to what people really mean.


Pre-arrival not per arrival.

Also, even under quarantine (at least in CT) you are allowed to go out and buy food and medicine and go exercise outside as long as you stay 6' away from other people.

Which means, most people are already doing a pre-arrival quarantine and you have plasuible deniability that you have met this requirement.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)

^if you work from home and so does everyone else in your household, it's not that difficult to abide by the letter of the rules, and downright easy to abide by the spirit of them. the only thing in my regular routine that is perhaps quarantine breaking is grocery shopping in person. everything else is just working from home and walks in my neighborhood and parks

i try to support my local restaurants, brewers, etc with take out and delivery business. i haven't felt very compelled to eat out in person, even outside.


----------



## kbroderick (Nov 23, 2020)

billo said:


> Pre-arrival not per arrival.
> 
> Also, even under quarantine (at least in CT) you are allowed to go out and buy food and medicine and go exercise outside as long as you stay 6' away from other people.
> 
> Which means, most people are already doing a pre-arrival quarantine and you have plasuible deniability that you have met this requirement.


The Vermont rules do not have an exemption for essential shopping or medical visits during the quarantine period. Going outside is "okay as long as you are completely alone."

See also https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites...rt-observation-isolation-quarantine_final.pdf


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 23, 2020)

ya that was my understanding, which is why my grocery shopping is a technical violation. I'll pivot to delivery groceries for the winter, no sweat. or I'll get my groceries for each two week period while leaving vermont


----------



## JimG. (Nov 23, 2020)

I'm beginning to see that I will be "safer" staying out of VT and sticking to NY skiing.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 23, 2020)

So coming from NH if I have "please stay back i'm quarantining" bumper sticker I should be fine.


----------



## Brewbeer (Nov 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You can definitely catch cancer from other people. We know this.  This isnt 1834.
> 
> ((((said in Chevy Chase voice))))  This isnt 1834 is it?


It being physically possible doesn't mean it's likely or even probable, and it definitely isn't contagious like covid.  

Grandma doesn't need to worry that she'll get cancer because her housekeeper went skiing.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 24, 2020)

Ticket purchase lines at Sunshine Village.... 









						VIDEO: Huge Lines and Overcrowding Result in Operational Changes at Sunshine Village Ski Resort, Banff, AB - SnowBrains
					

Sunshine Village Ski Resort in Banff, AB has had to adjust their operating procedures after videos from the ski resort shows overcrowding & long lines




					snowbrains.com


----------



## NYDB (Nov 24, 2020)

all those Albertans are discouraged (I don't think banned yet) from travelling to BC.  What did they expect?


----------



## kingslug (Nov 24, 2020)

*The resort says that because patrons were social distancing, the lines look way worse than they actually were.
um...yeah...ok*


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 24, 2020)

sunshine is particularly ill suited in its layout for the circumstances. to access sunshine you need to take a gondola from the parking lot to one of the base areas. its weird. its almost like a Disney world tram. one huge parking lot puts every single person on one gondola that they all need to access the rest of the resort. its not at all surprising for it to look this way just at or prior to the gondola starting. and they probably are organized into a few single file lines instead of the blob that used to form at the gondola. video isn't really that shocking and i bet once they are up the hill and fanned out across the lift infrastructure things are far more normal..


----------



## kbroderick (Nov 24, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> all those Albertans are discouraged (I don't think banned yet) from travelling to BC.  What did they expect?


Does that mean that they can't ski the Sunshine Village terrain in BC?


----------



## mbedle (Nov 24, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> sunshine is particularly ill suited in its layout for the circumstances. to access sunshine you need to take a gondola from the parking lot to one of the base areas. its weird. its almost like a Disney world tram. one huge parking lot puts every single person on one gondola that they all need to access the rest of the resort. its not at all surprising for it to look this way just at or prior to the gondola starting. and they probably are organized into a few single file lines instead of the blob that used to form at the gondola. video isn't really that shocking and i bet once they are up the hill and fanned out across the lift infrastructure things are far more normal..


Well, except this line was for purchasing lift tickets, not getting on the gondola.


----------



## fbrissette (Nov 24, 2020)

kbroderick said:


> Does that mean that they can't ski the Sunshine Village terrain in BC?


I'm sure they will have officers on site from the BCPP elite backcountry ski force.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 24, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Well, except this line was for purchasing lift tickets, not getting on the gondola.



its all the same spot. it used to be a blobbish area. now there's a bunch of lines into the lot.


----------



## kingslug (Nov 24, 2020)

I skied Panorama many moons ago..place was totaly empty..got first tracks everyday. Even revelstoke when I went there several years ago wasn't crowded. Its why I like BC..but not this year


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 24, 2020)

billo said:


> CAPITA NOT CAPITAL



But if it's Montpelier it could be done per capita or per capital.

I mentioned a handful of posts back that COVID19 demonstrate math is really hard for many people. lol


----------



## faceplant (Nov 30, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You can definitely catch cancer from other people. We know this.  This isnt 1834.
> 
> ((((said in Chevy Chase voice))))  This isnt 1834 is it?


trump says you can catch it from windmills


----------



## nhskier1969 (Nov 30, 2020)

Vermont is so Strict.  I think Vermont should put up a wall and make China pay for it.


----------



## gittist (Dec 1, 2020)

I guess Christmas is cancelled because Santa can't make his rounds this year due to all of the the quarantines restrictions.


----------



## Nick (Dec 1, 2020)

gittist said:


> I guess Christmas is cancelled because Santa can't make his rounds this year due to all of the the quarantines restrictions.


I am bummed out my kids (and my 1 year old) can't see Santa for the first time ever


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 1, 2020)

Nick said:


> I am bummed out my kids (and my 1 year old) can't see Santa for the first time ever


There will be a Christmas this year.  I heard Santa is on the top list to get the Vaccine.  The CDC doesn't want to screw with Santa.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 1, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> There will be a Christmas this year.  I heard Santa is on the top list to get the Vaccine.  The CDC doesn't want to screw with Santa.


But maybe not in Vermont.  The governor would probably make the reindeer quarantine for two weeks.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 1, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> But maybe not in Vermont.  The governor would probably make the reindeer quarantine for two weeks.


We can joke, but their numbers are very low.  And, demographically, this could have been very, very bad for Vermont.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I heard *Santa is on the top list to get the Vaccine.  *



Santa better be the first to get the vaccine, he'd be the ultimate global super-spreader.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 2, 2020)

I am not sure how everyone else feels about this but when media is showing deaths per week for Coronavirus, what can't they also show daily deaths for heart disease, Cancer and stroke.  It would be interesting to show the American public.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

because cancer, heart disease, and stroke aren't communicable diseases with unchecked community spread. don't be obtuse. and don't post some bullshit about hpv and cervical cancer. you know its not the same. when i can catch cancer because I've stood too close and too long to another shopper on the grocery line, then they can report cancer deaths on news tickers too.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 2, 2020)

I know it is different but I would like to see in terms of other deaths in the united states.  I also would like to see excessive deaths for the year. Between Heart disease, cancer, stroke we all know there are some crossover deaths between the above mentioned.  So what is the total deaths from Coronavirus?  I agree it is bad and the press everyday makes sure we know it.  I don't believe that the American people know that over 1.4 million people die each year from underlining health conditions.  How much will these go down in 2020.  I am sure the press won't tell us?  Also if someone has stage 4 cancer and coronavirus then dies, will the death be counted towards the virus or cancer? Are they counting it twice?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I am not sure how everyone else feels about this but when media is showing deaths per week for Coronavirus, what can't they also show daily deaths for heart disease, Cancer and stroke.  It would be interesting to show the American public.


Because the simple fact that on average there are about 8800 deaths PER DAY of any and all causes in the US, and that by most accounts that you can find that the overall death rate in the US this year isn't much different, of at all than normal, would take away from some of the narrative that the media and various politicians are pushing on society to in essence force compliance.

For perspective, if one wants to arbitrarily assign March 15th of this year as the start of the COVID related deaths, since then, there have been just under 2.3 MILLION deaths from any and all causes in the US. And there have been just over 270 THOUSAND deaths attributed to COVID 19 in the US. There are no indications that the total number of deaths in the US this year are up over 10%. 

Some perspective does matter when looking at the entire picture of this disease. Just looking at the headlines, and not looking at the entire picture, is what leads many to panic and be very fearful, which often leads to one ceding their own freedoms to the Government. There is a vast difference in being a good member of society, and doing things to reduce the risk of transmission to others as well as reducing the risk that one may acquire this disease, a disease which for the vast majority of society won't end up being much more than some flu like symptoms, if at all, and being more of a pawn to the government, the people we elect to work for us, not to control us.

No question that for some, this can be a deadly disease, and that in certain environments, especially when some basic precautions aren't being taken, that it can spread very easily. I don't dispute that at all. The approach and generalized fear inducing headlines that so many are using, and the public just reacting and not thinking rationally about the entire picture, is very concerning on far different levels


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I know it is different but I would like to see in terms of other deaths in the united states.  I also would like to see excessive deaths for the year. Between Heart disease, cancer, stroke we all know there are some crossover deaths between the above mentioned.  So what is the total deaths from Coronavirus?  I agree it is bad and the press everyday makes sure we know it.  I don't believe that the American people know that over 1.4 million people die each year from underlining health conditions.  How much will these go down in 2020.  I am sure the press won't tell us?  Also if someone has stage 4 cancer and coronavirus then dies, will the death be counted towards the virus or cancer? Are they counting it twice?


They have lists showing underlying conditions in association with covid


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I know it is different but I would like to see in terms of other deaths in the united states.  I also would like to see excessive deaths for the year. Between Heart disease, cancer, stroke we all know there are some crossover deaths between the above mentioned.  So what is the total deaths from Coronavirus?  I agree it is bad and the press everyday makes sure we know it.  I don't believe that the American people know that over 1.4 million people die each year from underlining health conditions.  How much will these go down in 2020.  I am sure the press won't tell us?  Also if someone has stage 4 cancer and coronavirus then dies, will the death be counted towards the virus or cancer? Are they counting it twice?


What's difficult to quantify, is what the death number would be WITHOUT social distancing. 

We've entered lockdown in mid-March. For about a month, people were dying in NYC and bodies were stored in refrigerator trucks. There's a very practical reason for that. Funeral homes can't process the body fast enough!

Then the death rate came down dramatically after we lockdown for 2 months. Now, it's more like a "bad flu", all summer long. 

What will happen if we remove all the social distancing? Who wants to be the Guinea Pig? (when I said "who", I mean which state governor).

Reality being, we ARE Guinea Pigs after all. The science aren't well known, NOT YET. The disease is still too new for all the questions to be answered. So during this time, each state is playing some sort of social experiment. Easing this or that restriction and trying to balance on a tight rope. The biggest problem with Covid is, when you're off balance, you only fall off 2 weeks later! By then, it's too late!


----------



## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> ...The science aren't well known, NOT YET. The disease is still too new for all the questions to be answered...


This point is so important. It's really sad how it's been lost in all the noise. 

Of course, we can still take basic precautions like distancing and wearing masks to reduce externalities on others. That seems to be the most reasonable way to balance the necessary tradeoff between trying to enjoy our lives and keeping everyone as safe as possible given what we do know.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Because the simple fact that on average there are about 8800 deaths PER DAY of any and all causes in the US, and that by most accounts that you can find that the overall death rate in the US this year isn't much different, of at all than normal, would take away from some of the narrative that the media and various politicians are pushing on society to in essence force compliance.
> 
> For perspective, if one wants to arbitrarily assign March 15th of this year as the start of the COVID related deaths, since then, there have been just under 2.3 MILLION deaths from any and all causes in the US. And there have been just over 270 THOUSAND deaths attributed to COVID 19 in the US. There are no indications that the total number of deaths in the US this year are up over 10%.
> 
> ...



anecdotal and speculative at best from me here, and i have zero sense of numbers and how much this could impact a statistic like that - but - what about the assumed decrease in car accidents and other sorts of accidental deaths that happen just as a result of being out in the world. less drivers, less car accidents. less beach trips, less drownings. less shopping malls and concerts, less lone gunman at shopping malls and concerts. etc. just a thought about why the overall number seems steady.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Then the death rate came down dramatically after we lockdown for 2 months. Now, it's more like a "bad flu", all summer long.



The death rate came down when more people started getting tested including those with only mild symptoms or no symptoms at all.   Initially, unless your symptoms were serious enough to require hospitalization, you werent getting tested.  People with symptoms were even being told to just stay home early on because the testing capacity wasn't there (and in some areas still isnt) to test everyone


----------



## EPB (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> because cancer, heart disease, and stroke aren't communicable diseases with unchecked community spread. don't be obtuse. and don't post some bullshit about hpv and cervical cancer. you know its not the same. when i can catch cancer because I've stood too close and too long to another shopper on the grocery line, then they can report cancer deaths on news tickers too.


I took that comment as a ticky-tack way to bait someone on a technicality rather than a serious point, but I could be wrong. 

It's probably not your cup of tea, but Irrational Exuberance by behavioral economist Robert Shiller provides some context to the ticker "debate". He basically argues that when big stock market gains or losses get reported widely on the news, the coverage needlessly amplifies those stock market moves. This is because media amplifications cause the lay person and professional investor alike to overreact and make moves in the market to their detriment (i.e. "buying high" or "selling low" which make market highs/lows more extreme as a result). While I totally agree with your assessment on externalities, the death ticker might do more harm to the psyche than good. Of course, it's an uncontrolled experiment, so it's hard to know for sure.

Matt Taibbi (formerly of Rolling Stone) also has a lot of interesting thoughts on how the news industry tries to enhance viewership numbers. My takeaway from listening to/reading him is that the death tickers are there to suck us back in. The news execs know humans are drawn to negative news and the ticker is a signal to bring eyeballs crawling back to the screen. The scary thing is that there seems to be lockstep industry consensus on this reading the tea leaves. Why else would CNN, MSNBC AND Fox News (and more) all use the same tactic? As mentioned previously by someone else, much like the stock market, the lay person (myself included) has a hard time making sense of what to expect death numbers to look like because we lack the base of knowledge to put them into proper context.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

i don't disagree with you on the psychology behind the tickers on the news networks at all.

my only point is deaths attributable to or at least associated with a new novel disease that has up-ended the way we live our lives worldwide is inherently more newsworthy than the common killers that have been common killers since the dawn of time and which are mostly attributable to poor individual personal health practices and decisions as opposed to the ability to catch it from someone else.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I know it is different but I would like to see in terms of other deaths in the united states.  I also would like to see excessive deaths for the year. Between Heart disease, cancer, stroke we all know there are some crossover deaths between the above mentioned.  So what is the total deaths from Coronavirus?  I agree it is bad and the press everyday makes sure we know it.  I don't believe that the American people know that over 1.4 million people die each year from underlining health conditions.  How much will these go down in 2020.  I am sure the press won't tell us?  Also if someone has stage 4 cancer and coronavirus then dies, will the death be counted towards the virus or cancer? Are they counting it twice?


Don't know if this is factual but any time they take something down, well, flak is heaviest over the target. 

All I've read is the 3.1 million deaths from all causes each year. So if this is all true markings of Covid-only caused death, it should be  totaled 3.3 or 3.4 million in 2020. 

Just keep in mind the same organization than runs these told us no masks in March, said it wasn't a problem in Feb, and now say 7-10 days is sufficient for quarantining ( yesterday that was announced by CDC)





__





						Study: Absolutely NO excess deaths from COVID-19 – Behind The Black – Robert Zimmerman
					





					behindtheblack.com


----------



## 2Planker (Dec 2, 2020)

Exactly,
   As time passes we learn and modify our guidelines....

Covid Testing line outside my window is 4+ blacks long this week.
Usually it's 1-2.

This is not going to be good in 2 weeks.
Just in time for the Holidays. - Sad


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Exactly,
> As time passes we learn and modify our guidelines....


Amazing how science works! (Also amazing how many people use changes as some sort of "proof" that we were lied to or that so and so doesn't know what they're talking about which is not the case at all and is simply how science works as new data is uncovered).


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## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I am not sure how everyone else feels about this but when media is showing deaths per week for Coronavirus, what can't they also show daily deaths for heart disease, Cancer and stroke.  It would be interesting to show the American public.


Not to mention flu. Wanna bet that flu numbers are way down this year?


----------



## cdskier (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Not to mention flu. Wanna bet that flu numbers are way down this year?



As they in theory should be considering that social distancing, mask wearing, and being more careful about proper sanitizing practices should all contribute to lower spread of flu...


----------



## mikec142 (Dec 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> As they in theory should be considering that social distancing, mask wearing, and being more careful about proper sanitizing practices should all contribute to lower spread of flu...


And people's heightened worry about COVID has most likely caused a lot more folks to go get a flu shot.  Certainly was the case for my family.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> As they in theory should be considering that social distancing, mask wearing, and being more careful about proper sanitizing practices should all contribute to lower spread of flu...


Not to mention the flu deaths reported as COVID.


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> As they in theory should be considering that social distancing, mask wearing, and being more careful about proper sanitizing practices should all contribute to lower spread of flu...


Flu should be non-existing if people are following the guide lines!

After all, much of the Covid guild lines were based on flu. So the number of flu is probably just as good an indication of how good/bad people are following the recommended practice.


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Not to mention the flu deaths reported as COVID.


HOW do you perceive flu death be "reported" as Covid death?


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2020)

__





						COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
					

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities.  Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> HOW do you perceive flu death be "reported" as Covid death?


I perceive nothing. Frankly I would be glad to ignore all of this. But I am being forced to think about it which I try to do as little of as possible. 

I have no time for politics or conspiracies. Or alleged "science" from people who have no real idea. But if you are going to tell me that it's impossible to report flu as COVID I've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for you.


----------



## gittist (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> HOW do you perceive flu death be "reported" as Covid death?


I've heard many times [not that it's true] that anyone that dies from any cause and also tests positive for COVID, is counted as a COVID death. So if a person dies in a car wreck, skis off of a cliff....  but ultimately tests positive for COVID they are counted as a COVID death.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 2, 2020)

gittist said:


> I've heard many times [not that it's true] that anyone that dies from any cause and also tests positive for COVID, is counted as a COVID death. So if a person dies in a car wreck, skis off of a cliff....  but ultimately tests positive for COVID they are counted as a COVID death.


Read the link I posted and how they are reporting it.


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## flakeydog (Dec 2, 2020)

I think the "excess deaths" is kind of a thing.  

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/11/201117133908.htm
https://hub.jhu.edu/2020/09/01/comorbidities-and-coronavirus-deaths-cdc/
https://healthcostinstitute.org/hcci-research/daily-deaths-during-coronavirus-pandemic-by-state

There are probably a hundred more similar articles out there as well full of science-y data and long smart-sounding statistical terms.  Of course, none of these articles start off by informing the reader that they won't see this printed anywhere else, or that they fear censorship from deep-state operatives that target only the few chosen ones that know the "truth". 

PS: if I have stage-4 cancer and get hit by a bus, the bus gets the credit, not the cancer.


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> PS: if I have stage-4 cancer and get hit by a bus, the bus gets the credit, not the cancer.


If a person with stage 4 cancer gets hit by a bus I'd call that suicide.


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I perceive nothing. Frankly I would be glad to ignore all of this. But I am being forced to think about it which I try to do as little of as possible.
> 
> I have no time for politics or conspiracies. Or alleged "science" from people who have no real idea. But if you are going to tell me that it's impossible to report flu as COVID I've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for you.


Well, if you aren't going to think, then I take it whatever you're posting is...without thinking! Best ignored?


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

gittist said:


> I've heard many times [not that it's true] that anyone that dies from any cause and also tests positive for COVID, is counted as a COVID death. So if a person dies in a car wreck, skis off of a cliff....  but ultimately tests positive for COVID they are counted as a COVID death.


I heard that too. That could potentially be true.

Say, if someone falls off a ladder. cracked his skull open and bleed to death, you can quite strongly argue he's NOT died BECAUSE of COVID. Why? Because the symptoms of the two are quite different. (Covid actually has many different symptoms, still cracked skull isn't one of them  )

But with flu, or pneumonia, how do you argue he's died of flu but has nothing to do with Covid?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> I heard that too. That could potentially be true.
> 
> Say, if someone falls off a ladder. cracked his skull open and bleed to death, you can quite strongly argue he's NOT died BECAUSE of COVID. Why? Because the symptoms of the two are quite different. (Covid actually has many different symptoms, still cracked skull isn't one of them  )
> 
> But with flu, or pneumonia, how do you argue he's died of flu but has nothing to do with Covid?



Part of the 1st version of the CARES ACT that was passed back in April if I recall the timeframe correctly, had specific wording in it that would allow hospitals to bill extra for any COVID positive patient they treated (regardless of it was COVID or not that brought them into the hospital) and then bill even more if the patient needed to be intubated for their treatment of COVID.

So yes indeed there was/still is I believe, financial incentive for a hospital to list COVID on the diagnosis coding, which then gets used for billing purposes. 

This concept then morphed a bit onto death certificates where it has become almost to the point where if someone dies and they are COVID positive, it is often presumed that COVID was the cause of death, even if it was say something like stage 4 pancreatic cancer, or blunt force trauma from a car accident, or injuries sustained in a shooting, etc


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> allow hospitals to bill extra for any COVID positive patient they treated (regardless of it was COVID or not that brought them into the hospital)


Wasn't that to account for the fact a Covid positive patient had to be treated in isolation?


----------



## drjeff (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Wasn't that to account for the fact a Covid positive patient had to be treated in isolation?



I believe some of it was also attributable to the simple fact that the gov't realized what they were doing in March/April/May was going to adversely affect the volume that hospitals see of all patients, and that many hospitals,. especially the smaller community hospitals, were going to potentially not be able to continue operations without additional cash


----------



## flakeydog (Dec 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Part of the 1st version of the CARES ACT that was passed back in April if I recall the timeframe correctly, had specific wording in it that would allow hospitals to bill extra for any COVID positive patient they treated (regardless of it was COVID or not that brought them into the hospital) and then bill even more if the patient needed to be intubated for their treatment of COVID.
> 
> So yes indeed there was/still is I believe, financial incentive for a hospital to list COVID on the diagnosis coding, which then gets used for billing purposes.
> 
> This concept then morphed a bit onto death certificates where it has become almost to the point where if someone dies and they are COVID positive, it is often presumed that COVID was the cause of death, even if it was say something like stage 4 pancreatic cancer, or blunt force trauma from a car accident, or injuries sustained in a shooting, etc


So while hospitals may get more for COVID pts in concept it is justified (more PPE, isolation treatment, displacement of other revenue, etc), I wanted to take a look at wht the prevalence of gaming this system might be.  Putting outright fraud aside like simply lying about a pt diagnosis or charging for services not rendered (something that already happens to some extent), let's look at the grey areas.

How many are admitted to a hospital with some non-COVID affliction but end up being diagnosed with it anyway?  This assumes they test positive, if they don't that just goes back to the fraud category.  If we take a look at the test positivity rate, we can get some sense of this.  Vermont is currently at about 1.9% but that is on the lower end.  Overall, it has been stated that 5% is the threshold of being problematic.  Many states are higher than this but as we know, as our rate of testing increases, the positivity rate falls (not surprisingly, many of the states with higher positivity rates have the lowest testing rates).  I think 5% is a pretty conservative number for this exercise, if our overall positivity rate is higher than 5%, we have other problems.

Using that 5% positivity rate, a random person that unfortunately finds him or herself in the hospital would perhaps have a 5% chance of testing positive for COVID.  Then, that hospital would have to be sure they billed tis out as COVID but I am sure that does not happen 100% of the time.  I have to think a pretty small number of cases are truly being falsely billed.  I am sure there are some anecdotal cases out there that make the news but I have a hard time believing it is a pervasive problem.


----------



## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> If a person with stage 4 cancer gets hit by a bus I'd call that suicide.



I know I'm not supposed to say "lol" to this but that was pretty damn witty! And true, unfortunately.


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

flakeydog said:


> Using that 5% positivity rate, a random person that unfortunately finds him or herself in the hospital would perhaps have a 5% chance of testing positive for COVID. Then, that hospital would have to be sure they billed tis out as COVID


Excellent point, *flakeydog*.  

So at worst, less than 10% (or only 5%) of people who are admitted into hospital will randomly tested Covid positive.

And we're making such a big deal out of 5-10% of "falsely" identified Covid patient?

How many of those random 5-10% Covid-positive patient end up dying of their unrelated cause? 1%? 0.1%? And it's going to change the Covid death statistic by how much???

That's not counting some of those "randomly positive" patient may actually develop full fledge COVID disease. And are therefore CORRECTLY identified!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> the death ticker might do more harm to the psyche than good.



The death ticker was meant to do more harm to the psyche than good, and it worked.  Death ticker coverage is now demonstrably down post success.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

1dog said:


> Just keep in mind the same organization than runs these told us no masks in March, said it wasn't a problem in Feb, and now say 7-10 days is sufficient for quarantining ( yesterday that was announced by CDC)



I could add so many things to this list, but I'll just add the illogical one that I've been harping on here since March, the claim that masks wont protect the wearer, but will protect people across the Costco.  Ponder for a moment that these are the "geniuses" leading you.

EDIT:   I should also add, this is a perfect example of how people dont question authority.  There's a book about this, cant recall the title.  If people "believe" someone is an expert, they're apt to listen to and do what they say, often without questioning it, regardless of how irrational or silly the information seems.  And from Day #1, masks not protecting the wearer seemed pretty irrational & silly to me.


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## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Well, if you aren't going to think, then I take it whatever you're posting is...without thinking! Best ignored?


Sure do whatever you want. I don't care if you put me on ignore.

But since you want to persist in your COVID hysteria, remember there is a big difference between perceive and think. You think this COVID hysteria is valid and have bought into it 100%; your perception is that this is a crisis. I think this COVID hysteria is overblown and I choose to perceive the situation as something not really worthy of my rapt attention. This is a manufactured "crisis" to me. Of course, I'm healthy and have no other co-morbidities. I don't live with anyone who is predisposed to a bad outcome. So if you want to stay in a bubble to be safe, that's your choice. I'm good with that.

My biggest "crisis" is wondering how much I will ski this season.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 2, 2020)

Didn't know where to post this but wondering how low skier visit will be this year for the country and for the states?


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> But since you want to persist in your COVID hysteria, remember* there is a big difference between perceive and think*. You think this COVID hysteria is valid and have bought into it 100%; your perception is that this is a crisis. I think this COVID hysteria is overblown and I choose to perceive the situation as something not really worthy of my rapt attention. This is a manufactured "crisis" to me. Off course, I'm healthy and have no other co-morbidities. I don't live with anyone who is predisposed to a bad outcome. So if you want to stay in a bubble to be safe, that's your choice. I'm good with that.


You've just made a long winded argument that perception and "think" is the same thing. 

And as you claim you don't want to "think" about anything Covid related, why are you on a thread ABOUT Covid Response of ski resort?


----------



## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> You've just made a long winded argument that perception and "think" is the same thing.
> 
> And as you claim you don't want to "think" about anything Covid related, why are you on a thread ABOUT Covid Response of ski resort?


I knew you couldn't hit that ignore button!


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 2, 2020)

Question for everyone, the CDC says 88% of the cases are asymptomatic. Up to 6 weeks ago you couldn't get tested unless you got a doctors note, so there were fewer cases before that.  The past six weeks there has been a lot more testing but I would find it hard to believe there would be more than 5% of asymptomatic people were tested.   So what is the actual number of positive coronavirus cases in the united states if you count asymptomatic people.


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## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I knew you couldn't hit that ignore button!


what ignore button?


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## JimG. (Dec 2, 2020)

abc said:


> what ignore button?


Click on avatar, choose ignore by pushing ignore button.

Edit: Update! It seems that I can ignore you, but you can't ignore me. As a moderator and staff member you aren't allowed to ignore me. 

Sorry to ruin your evening.


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## Edd (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> So what is the actual number of positive coronavirus cases in the united states if you count asymptomatic people.


Not knowing the answer to that seems to be the entire problem.


----------



## abc (Dec 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Click on avatar, choose ignore by pushing ignore button.
> 
> Edit: Update! It seems that I can ignore you, but you can't ignore me. As a moderator and staff member you aren't allowed to ignore me.
> 
> Sorry to ruin your evening.


Frankly I'm having such entertainment poking fun here that my evening is far from ruined.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 2, 2020)

Guys, I was just wondering.  It seems in this thread alot of you have done some research on this.  I have tried to google it but I couldn't find anything.  None of the news outlets have put any numbers out there.  I just wondering, thats why I had a question.  Didn't mean to offend anyone.


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## NYDB (Dec 2, 2020)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...ign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=072120

One study says 6 to 24x.  So 10x is a good bet.  Study was from earlier in year though.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 2, 2020)

Edd said:


> Not knowing the answer to that seems to be the entire problem.



i do think its funny that he poses these grand questions to this ski message board. if one of us had the answers to these questions we would not be here posting about snowmaking progress in vermont.


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## ss20 (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Guys, I was just wondering.  It seems in this thread alot of you have done some research on this.  I have tried to google it but I couldn't find anything.  None of the news outlets have put any numbers out there.  I just wondering, thats why I had a question.  Didn't mean to offend anyone.



The "news" isn't worth shit if you're looking for numbers, percentages, etc.  This is going to take a couple years of mathematical modelling and academic studies for us to have an idea on number of deaths, cases, death rate, etc.  And even then the ranges for those estimates is going to be huuuuuuge.


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## Not Sure (Dec 2, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I know I'm not supposed to say "lol" to this but that was pretty damn witty! And true, unfortunately.


LOL for sure. 
Stage 4 sounds bad but with Lymphoma it’s not a death sentence. I was stage 4 in 2004


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> what is the actual number of positive coronavirus cases in the united states if you count asymptomatic people.



There's a statistical theory that up to 25% or more of the country may have been infected already. It's based off dialysis sample testing from late June.  At June 30, if extrapolated to the nation, 10% were infected at that point.  By now, if it held, you'd be over 25% or more.  Pretty clever idea, but obviously you need to use caution using that kind of low 'N' info to make broad conclusions.  I'd like to see this replicated 50 times, 1 per state, and see what they come up with.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i do think its funny that he *poses these grand questions *to this ski message board. *if one of us had the answers to these questions *we would not be here posting about snowmaking progress in vermont.



The answer is 42.


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## fbrissette (Dec 3, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> Guys, I was just wondering.  It seems in this thread alot of you have done some research on this.  I have tried to google it but I couldn't find anything.  None of the news outlets have put any numbers out there.  I just wondering, thats why I had a question.  Didn't mean to offend anyone.


Don't relay on news outlet for hard data.  Search within Google Scholar for access to science.  Overwhelming at first, but you will get access to the unedited/apolitical data,  Some info may be be behind a pay wall, but sci-hub is there for that.


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## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

At last report - Hospitals receive $13K per Covid case and $39K for ventilator Covid case - these were April or early May numbers.  CARES Act

Those who I know in that business say hospitals are all suffering from huge shutdowns of elective surgery and of course the much-publicized delay in heart and cancer screenings due to fear of going to a hospital in general.

Jim G I don't think anyone wants to think about it, but it is ( real or perception - and I'll place my take at 20/80 respectively ) affecting everyone, and I mean everyone. Your last post was spot on to where I stand - if worried, stay home, if you choose to live life without fear, carry on. 
The administrative state is making that impossible. They love the control, and they will not let it go easily. 

People don't want to talk about politics involved but I. don't know HOW that is done since what they proclaim from on high affects everyones day to day life.   

When the woman asked Franklin what they came upon with at the Constitutional Convention in Philly, he quipped ' a Republic, if you can keep it.'

Apparently not for more than 250 or so years . .


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## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

1dog said:


> The administrative state is making that impossible. They love the control, and they will not let it go easily.


I don’t personally know a single person who’s having a good time right now. What‘s your basis for this claim?


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## drjeff (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> I don’t personally know a single person who’s having a good time right now. What‘s your basis for this claim?



I think the initial point is that all the additional control that government has taken over the population this year, on top of the control that they have been adding more and more to over the last 10-20 years, is creating many issues of frustration, and negative psychological effects on so many.

How often do you hear, especially prior to the numerous roll backs that the current President's administration made to many regulations (not COVID related) that allowed more personal choices, politicians enacting legislation that gives us more freedoms, rather than restricts them? And sure, some of what the lawmakers pass may be under the pretenses of "its good for X" however that often leaves out the follow up sentence, which is that is "comes at the expense of Y" 

So many of the perceived societal problems don't need to be "solved" by the government (in spite of what they, the lawmakers tell us) since the consumer market often dictates to society via pressure on businesses in the form of purchasing or not purchasing goods that they want, not goods that they're told they should be buying as a result of regulations passed.

Think about it this way, are people generally more "happy" when they're doing something they want? Or are they more happy when they're doing something they're told they have to/should be doing?


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## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I think the initial point is that all the additional control that government has taken over the population this year, on top of the control that they have been adding more and more to over the last 10-20 years, is creating many issues of frustration, and negative psychological effects on so many.
> 
> How often do you hear, especially prior to the numerous roll backs that the current President's administration made to many regulations (not COVID related) that allowed more personal choices, politicians enacting legislation that gives us more freedoms, rather than restricts them? And sure, some of what the lawmakers pass may be under the pretenses of "its good for X" however that often leaves out the follow up sentence, which is that is "comes at the expense of Y"
> 
> ...


My answer to the last paragraph is people are happier doing what they want, IMO. I’m just missing the part of who’s loving the control. It seems to me everyone is unhappy, from the prez on down.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2020)

cool story, ayn. really spoken like a wealthy white suburban dentist. kudos to you.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> My answer to the last paragraph is people are happier doing what they want, IMO. I’m just missing the part of who’s loving the control. It seems to me everyone is unhappy, from the prez on down.



its all a ploy by big mask.


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## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> My answer to the last paragraph is people are happier doing what they want, IMO. I’m just missing the part of who’s loving the control. It seems to me everyone is unhappy, from the prez on down.


A sad, but great overview of my world view comes in this 14 minute clip - sad because Walter passed yesterday at 84. He taught me a lot in the last 26 or so years I've followed him. You may not agree, but at least you'll see how half the country perceives the Statist State. Sad also because he thinks we may no longer believe we are the great country we ( are, were, hope to be). 



PS his last column just happened to be posted yesterday as well - its full of facts - which is all he ever relied on.

Rest In Peace Mr. Williams


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its all a ploy by big mask.


lets not forget Big Pharma! At $.07 a pill HCQ is a TERRIBLE alternative . . .


----------



## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> My answer to the last paragraph is people are happier doing what they want, IMO. I’m just missing the part of who’s loving the control. It seems to me everyone is unhappy, from the prez on down.


Didn't you know that Cuomo, Murphy, Baker, Scott, and all the other northeast governors get together every night on Zoom and have a big party drinking Champagne while laughing about all the new lockdowns and restrictions they plan to implement next?


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Didn't you know that Cuomo, Murphy, Baker, Scott, and all the other northeast governors get together every night on Zoom and have a big party drinking Champagne while laughing about all the new lockdowns and restrictions they plan to implement next?


Here's LA Mayor doing just. that: https://twitchy.com/doug-3137/2020/...i-explains-why-its-time-to-cancel-everything/


more fuel to the fire: https://rairfoundation.com/warning-...ated-gene-altering-coronavirus-vaccine-video/


Cliff Notes:

*Coronavirus Mortality Rate Obscured*

One of the most obvious points is that the vaccine is for an illness that has an incredibly low case fatality rate in Germany. “Among these 0 to 70 years, 0.7 percent died with and from COVID-19. 0.7 percent died,” he explains. But the real scandal is that these numbers are obscured from the public, in an apparant effort to make the disease appear more deadly than it actually is. Likewise, this author has looked for the mortality rate of the coronavirus in America by age and it is very difficult to find. “You won’t be able to find the answer, because you’ll only get an answer if you search the reports from the RKI [Robert Koch Institute] and calculate the number yourself.”


----------



## NYDB (Dec 3, 2020)

I'm not surprised this thread has devolved into full on Covid Truther Territory.  3k deaths yesterday.  Just the beginning.   All a hoax. 

And really, rairfoundation?  Breitbart too liberal for you?  Oann not giving you the rush it used to?

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pompeo...r-holiday-party-amid-covid-19-spike-1.5215143

I do agree our politicians seem not to be grasping the seriousness of the situation.  Right / Left / Center.  They seem to be not getting the severity of it from the top on down.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2020)

1dog said:


> A sad, but great overview of my world view comes in this 14 minute clip - sad because Walter passed yesterday at 84. He taught me a lot in the last 26 or so years I've followed him. You may not agree, but at least you'll see how half the country perceives the Statist State. Sad also because he thinks we may no longer believe we are the great country we ( are, were, hope to be).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is old Walt going to bury himself?


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 3, 2020)

NY DirtBag said:


> 3k deaths yesterday.  Just the beginning.



Largely due to lack of reporting over the holiday weekend.  Testing/confirmed cases are going to be skewed as well


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2020)

yea, read something (maybe the atlantic?) yesterday that mentioned there's always a weekend lull and a Monday bump, but that it will be way skewed bc of the long holiday weekend


----------



## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Largely due to lack of reporting over the holiday weekend.  Testing/confirmed cases are going to be skewed as well


Sure but Thanksgiving gatherings = more cases. It’s a 2 + 2 = 4 deal.


----------



## EPB (Dec 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Didn't you know that Cuomo, Murphy, Baker, Scott, and all the other northeast governors get together every night on Zoom and have a big party drinking Champagne while laughing about all the new lockdowns and restrictions they plan to implement next?


I must say, perhaps the most striking political/cultural shift since the mid 2000s is how the left went from branding themselves as the "cool" free speech/live and let live crowd to being the unapologetically authoritarian crowd.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

NYT Report on VT:                                                                 Facilities             Cases                                         Deaths                          % of total elder care facilities

Vermont82093349%
None of this is good news, but to attempt to control the 750K residents and X # of visitors?  Because of 33 deaths and half in elder care facilities? That's tyranny coming soon to a ski area near you.
Ii truly believe most people on both sides are trying to do the right thing. That would include everyone on this forum - contributors anyway. The small % that is taking advantage of the crisis. . .  different story. Who said ' never let a crisis go to waste'? Believe it was the' highly effective' former mayor of Chicago . .

EPB - complete tolerance . . .as long as you agree with them. Otherwise, shut down.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Is old Walt going to bury himself?


Agree or disagree?

*“Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man.” --  Walter E. Williams

"Despite the miracles of capitalism, it doesn't do well in popularity polls. One of the reasons is that capitalism is always evaluated against the non-existent utopias of socialism or communism. Any earthly system pales in comparison to utopias. But for the ordinary person, capitalism, with all of its warts, is superior to any system yet devised to deal with our everyday needs and desires." - Walter Williams*


----------



## EPB (Dec 3, 2020)

1dog said:


> Agree or disagree?
> 
> *“Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man.” --  Walter E. Williams
> 
> "Despite the miracles of capitalism, it doesn't do well in popularity polls. One of the reasons is that capitalism is always evaluated against the non-existent utopias of socialism or communism. Any earthly system pales in comparison to utopias. But for the ordinary person, capitalism, with all of its warts, is superior to any system yet devised to deal with our everyday needs and desires." - Walter Williams*


I appreciate the enthusiasm. Believe me, I love capitalism as much as the next guy, but this is off topic even for a guy like me who likes do digress. I know it's not my role to say this necessarily, but I'm unfamiliar with Walter Williams, DHS's comment didn't make any sense to me, and I feel like this thing could get wayyyy off topic soon.


----------



## deadheadskier (Dec 3, 2020)

1dog said:


> Agree or disagree?
> 
> *“Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man.” --  Walter E. Williams
> 
> "Despite the miracles of capitalism, it doesn't do well in popularity polls. One of the reasons is that capitalism is always evaluated against the non-existent utopias of socialism or communism. Any earthly system pales in comparison to utopias. But for the ordinary person, capitalism, with all of its warts, is superior to any system yet devised to deal with our everyday needs and desires." - Walter Williams*




Partially

It's not so black and white as old Walt tries to make it.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I appreciate the enthusiasm. Believe me, I love capitalism as much as the next guy, but this is off topic even for a guy like me who likes do digress. I know it's not my role to say this necessarily, but I'm unfamiliar with Walter Williams, DHS's comment didn't make any sense to me, and I feel like this thing could get wayyyy off topic soon.


happy to re-direct. Covid as it relates to VT - today thru the 13th of Dec should give us a good indicator of the spread during holiday week.  As long as we trust testing, hospital counts, and deaths. Morbid, but it that's what affects our passions to be on the hills and in the woods. 
Anyone plan on skiing this weekend? Snow forecast has dwindled on NOAA site.


----------



## drjeff (Dec 3, 2020)

I did notice that as of yesterday, VT finally started reporting the antigen test results and "presumed" positive cases as opposed to just the PCR positive tests that they have done all along up until now. 

Not sure what to make of the change in reporting by the VT Dept of Health on this right now


----------



## tumbler (Dec 3, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I did notice that as of yesterday, VT finally started reporting the antigen test results and "presumed" positive cases as opposed to just the PCR positive tests that they have done all along up until now.
> 
> Not sure what to make of the change in reporting by the VT Dept of Health on this right now


I think to show the worst case to justify their regulations that I feel will be increasing.  I have a very bad feeling about skiing that gets worse every day...


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think to show the worst case to justify their regulations that I feel will be increasing.  I have a very bad feeling about skiing that gets worse every day...



Thanks to the new "presumed" positive metric, Vermont just blew its one day record out of the water.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

tumbler said:


> I think to show the worst case to justify their regulations that I feel will be increasing.  I have a very bad feeling about skiing that gets worse every day...


I had same take - until I went to Killington day after T Day - had my negative test results, utility bill w my name in it from VT, and in case none of those worked, took my MD friend to illustrate to the sheriff I had not only my physicians permission, but he's right here in the back seat to verify I'm ok!

Had no trouble on lifts or in line. Not super crowded, soft snow, drizzly, but a great 1st day out. I'm hoping that is the norm, not the complete shut down that some  want us to have - like 'Sarah'.


----------



## Edd (Dec 3, 2020)

1dog said:


> I had same take - until I went to Killington day after T Day - had my negative test results, utility bill w my name in it from VT, and in case none of those worked, took my MD friend to illustrate to the sheriff I had not only my physicians permission, but he's right here in the back seat to verify I'm ok!
> 
> Had no trouble on lifts or in line. Not super crowded, soft snow, drizzly, but a great 1st day out. I'm hoping that is the norm, not the complete shut down that some  want us to have - like 'Sarah'.


Are you and your personal physician in agreement about mask effectiveness? Don’t get the Sarah reference but guessing that’s political somehow.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 3, 2020)

see sugarbush thread. sarah was an overbearing xenophobic vermonter going wild in a mad river valley youtube Q&A thing


----------



## 1dog (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> Are you and your personal physician in agreement about mask effectiveness? Don’t get the Sarah reference but guessing that’s political somehow.


Doc more than I am, but I wear them out of respect for those living in fear - and to comply with local and state regulations. ( Same with the 65-70MPH speed limit )
Sarah - sorry - that was from another string on here  - MRV Chamber video Zoom where this woman Sarah - a 'Karen' went on and on about how no one should go anywhere ever - especially Mad River Valley. I'm not that sharp as you can see.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> Are you and your personal physician in agreement about mask effectiveness? Don’t get the Sarah reference but guessing that’s political somehow.





KustyTheKlown said:


> see sugarbush thread. sarah was an overbearing xenophobic vermonter going wild in a mad river valley youtube Q&A thing


Yup...Sarah is convinced that resorts shouldn't open at all this year and was continually asking Sugarbush and MRG's GMs how they could possibly justify opening this year and "inviting outsiders to VT".


----------



## EPB (Dec 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Yup...Sarah is convinced that resorts shouldn't open at all this year and was continually asking Sugarbush and MRG's GMs how they could possibly justify opening this year and "inviting outsiders to VT".


Sounds like she believes in science.


----------



## nhskier1969 (Dec 4, 2020)

Edd said:


> Not knowing the answer to that seems to be the entire problem.


I don't think anyone knows the answer to the actual infection rate.  Attached is an older article from the spring.  They tested 397 people at the Pine Street inn homeless shelter, 146 came back positive, all were asymptomatic.  Granted this is an older article maybe they didn't do the test right but I thought I would share the article.








						Testing Reveals 'Stunning' Asymptomatic Coronavirus Spread Among Boston's Homeless
					

Doctors who work with Boston's homeless population are sounding the alarm about asymptomatic spread of the coronavirus and the need for more testing.




					www.wbur.org


----------



## MidnightJester (Dec 4, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Sounds like she believes in science.


Sounds like Sarah could use a friendly visiting boarder knocking on her door asking for directions to the Mountain Resort of choice for  the best snow conditions. Wearing winter Baclava of course. Maybe a scarf wrapped around face and neck if its Blizzarding. If she feeling friendly maybe a ride to the Mountain too. Help save on parking spots and the planet.

Best snow hunting to all this year. See you on the mountain hopfully.


----------



## EPB (Dec 4, 2020)

MidnightJester said:


> Sounds like Sarah could use a friendly visiting boarder knocking on her door asking for directions to the Mountain Resort of choice for  the best snow conditions. Wearing winter Baclava of course. Maybe a scarf wrapped around face and neck if its Blizzarding. If she feeling friendly maybe a ride to the Mountain too. Help save on parking spots and the planet.
> 
> Best snow hunting to all this year. See you on the mountain hopfully.


Haha! 

Kidding aside, if we behave courteously around others in the lift lines (which I presume will be pretty spread out to begin with) and elsewhere, I really don't think anyone should have guilty conscience about visiting "someone else's" home town to go skiing. Hopefully, Sarah will realize she just needs to do her grocery shopping midweek and avoid unnecessary trips to the store like the rest of us have been doing since March anyway.


----------



## gittist (Dec 4, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Haha!
> 
> Kidding aside, if we behave courteously around others in the lift lines (which I presume will be pretty spread out to begin with) and elsewhere, I really don't think anyone should have guilty conscience about visiting "someone else's" home town to go skiing. Hopefully, Sarah will realize she just needs to do her grocery shopping midweek and avoid unnecessary trips to the store like the rest of us have been doing since March anyway.


Yup...Sarah is convinced that resorts shouldn't open at all this year and was continually asking Sugarbush and MRG's GMs how they could possibly justify opening this year and "inviting outsiders to VT".


Nah....she just wants to have the entire place to her self.


----------



## icecoast1 (Dec 4, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Haha!
> 
> Kidding aside, if we behave courteously around others in the lift lines (which I presume will be pretty spread out to begin with) and elsewhere, I really don't think anyone should have guilty conscience about visiting "someone else's" home town to go skiing. Hopefully, Sarah will realize she just needs to do her grocery shopping midweek and avoid unnecessary trips to the store like the rest of us have been doing since March anyway.



Very true.  Although the mistake you made was expecting people like that to think rationally


----------



## Not Sure (Dec 4, 2020)

Edd said:


> I don’t personally know a single person who’s having a good time right now. What‘s your basis for this claim?


" Never let a crisis go to waste " 
Pretty famous quote ,it's a shame that there are people out there whos first thought is how to benefit form others pain. You apparently don't think like that to your credit.


----------



## RichT (Dec 5, 2020)

OK I don't get it. I have a family member that travels from NY to FLA every weekend! Never has a problem. I also know of a couple guys that have been to Killington many times without a problem. My daughter just went on a trip with her friend from NJ to FLA by car and on her way back they went thru GA, TENN, WVA and PA, with out any problems.


----------



## Zermatt (Dec 5, 2020)

RichT said:


> OK I don't get it. I have a family member that travels from NY to FLA every weekend! Never has a problem. I also know of a couple guys that have been to Killington many times without a problem. My daughter just went on a trip with her friend from NJ to FLA by car and on her way back they went thru GA, TENN, WVA and PA, with out any problems.


What do you not get?

They are not following the state quarantine rules then. Simple.


----------



## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

RichT said:


> OK I don't get it. I have a family member that travels from NY to FLA every weekend! Never has a problem. I also know of a couple guys that have been to Killington many times without a problem. My daughter just went on a trip with her friend from NJ to FLA by car and on her way back they went thru GA, TENN, WVA and PA, with out any problems.


What don't you get? 

They've been driving 80 mph all the way and never got stopped by police even once!


----------



## RichT (Dec 5, 2020)

billo said:


> What do you not get?
> 
> They are not following the state quarantine rules then. Simple.


I hear about all these rules, when you land at JFK you have to tell them who you are, what seat you were in, where your going to quarantine.....heck all ya gotta do is look them up to see what there airplane tix shows (round trip?) Nobody asks and if they do ask you can make stuff up, they don't check! VT does the same you give them BS, and your good. Stupid waste of resources, if nobody's going to enforce the rules.


----------



## skiur (Dec 5, 2020)

RichT said:


> I hear about all these rules, when you land at JFK you have to tell them who you are, what seat you were in, where your going to quarantine.....heck all ya gotta do is look them up to see what there airplane tix shows (round trip?) Nobody asks and if they do ask you can make stuff up, they don't check! VT does the same you give them BS, and your good. Stupid waste of resources, if nobody's going to enforce the rules.



That's because the rules are not enforceable.  Look at Vermont.  You can do your quarantine at home before coming to Vermont.  They are taking people's word for it that they are complying.  Anybody can just say they quarantined before getting to Vermont.  What kind of enforcement do you want.  We don't even know if these executive orders are even legal.  They have not been challenged in court because there is not penalty for  not complying.  I think the state governors know that it would be ruled unconstitutional and that it why they are not enforcing it.


----------



## 1dog (Dec 5, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I don't think anyone knows the answer to the actual infection rate.  Attached is an older article from the spring.  They tested 397 people at the Pine Street inn homeless shelter, 146 came back positive, all were asymptomatic.  Granted this is an older article maybe they didn't do the test right but I thought I would share the article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To my peril, I'll venture to state these guys have a handle on fatality rate. Here is the quote from the article:
'But the bottom line is that the COVID fatality rate is in the neighborhood of 0.2 percent.'  Here is the source ( Pretty strong credentials all, Stanford, Harvard, Oxford, etc.)









						A Sensible and Compassionate Anti-COVID Strategy
					

We should respond to the COVID virus rationally: protect the vulnerable, treat the people who get infected compassionately, develop a vaccine. And while doing these things we should bring back the civilization that we had so that the cure does not end up being worse than the disease.




					imprimis.hillsdale.edu
				





What caught my eye was the 130 million who could starve due to shutdowns. . . . . . 
( Dated Oct 9 btw)


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 5, 2020)

its just about establishing some deterrence, there's no capacity or intention for enforcement, and it's working in deterring at least some people from travel


----------



## 1dog (Dec 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its just about establishing some deterrence, there's no capacity or intention for enforcement, and it's working in deterring at least some people from travel


Agree. As long as it is voluntary we are not (yet) 1930's Germany.


----------



## Slidebrook87 (Dec 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its just about establishing some deterrence, there's no capacity or intention for enforcement, and it's working in deterring at least some people from travel


Right. It’s essentially Vermont’s way of discouraging out of staters as much as they can. To an extent it has worked, but people will still come. It will also work to make sure that people are being safe at home doing only essential activities so that they “quarantine” even though that may not match VT’s official definition.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Dec 5, 2020)

i didnt even realize until this morning that for me as a new yorker vermont is actually the easiest new england state, because the letter of the rules lets me quarantine at home. did not realize maine and nh had quarantines and that you need to perform it in state. not that any of that truly matters, but still interesting. i'm committed to a lodging situation near sugarbush, but i'd love to be able to just bop around new england for the next two weeks and go wherever, especially with today's storm putting a base down in eastern new england, but i will most likely stay put in Vermont and remain compliant.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 5, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i didnt even realize until this morning that for me as a new yorker vermont is actually the easiest new england state, because the letter of the rules lets me quarantine at home. did not realize maine and nh had quarantines and that you need to perform it in state. not that any of that truly matters, but still interesting. i'm committed to a lodging situation near sugarbush, but i'd love to be able to just bop around new england for the next two weeks and go wherever, especially with today's storm putting a base down in eastern new england, but i will most likely stay put in Vermont and remain compliant.


NH it is only suggested where in VT and ME it is supposed to be mandatory but...


----------



## abc (Dec 5, 2020)

1dog said:


> To my peril, I'll venture to state these guys have a handle on fatality rate. Here is the quote from the article:
> 'But the bottom line is that the COVID fatality rate is in the neighborhood of 0.2 percent.'


0.2% is pretty high when the infectious rate (R) is high. (Back in March, it's as high as 2,3 or more!)

There're right place to use absolute number and wrong place to use percentage...

The US looks horrible on Covid death NUMBER compare to other countries, even though we aren't that high on PERCENTAGE of death per million. Why? Because we're a big country and the population base number is big. So even we have smaller percentage of death per million population than say Belgium, we have more DEAD in total numbers. 

People keep comparing COVID with flu which has a "similar" fatality *rate in percentage*. 2 things: the flu infection rate is also based on people sick enough to end up in hospital, so it too is higher than the actual fatality rate. But a lot more significant, flu isn't half as contagious as Covid. So even if the fatality rate is the same, Covid kills more AND *kills a whole lot faster!*

There's the saying "lies, damn lies, then there's statistics!" The people who wants to lock everything down are using the absolute death number because that paints the worst picture. And the people who don't want any restriction are using the fatality RATE percentage because it paints a much rosier picture. Both are damn lies hiding behind statistics purposedlly chosen to be misleading!


----------



## Puck it (Dec 5, 2020)

Data from the CDC webpage for 12/2.  80% of deaths over 65 with over 60% in long term care.  You should be screaming at the people responsible for running those homes


----------



## Puck it (Dec 5, 2020)

Here is another one that needs to explained with the science and not just hand waving from armchair virologists.  The same type of graph hold true for US states.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Dec 6, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Sounds like she believes in science.



I give 10:1 odds she's not a native Vermonter.


----------



## Zermatt (Dec 6, 2020)

COVID In Aspen: Pitkin County Visitors Must Prove Negative Coronavirus Test
					

Pitkin County is in the process of finalizing a policy, which would require visitors to sign an affidavit to certify they will not only comply with the county's public health order, but that they have had a negative test result within 72 hours of traveling.




					denver.cbslocal.com
				




Aspen (Pitkin County) requiring a negative Covid test.


----------



## xlr8r (Dec 6, 2020)

Clearly both Alterra and Vail are not regulating capacity properly based on these reports.  Lines and social distancing appears to be out of control.
Winter Park
Vail


----------



## tnt1234 (Dec 6, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> its just about establishing some deterrence, there's no capacity or intention for enforcement, and it's working in deterring at least some people from travel


It worked on us.  We are typically good for 3-4 VT trips a year.  But are making alternate plans that are currently compliant with all state restrictions.  Not ruling out a trip to VT at some point, but will certainly try to limit exposures and get tested before so as to honor the spirit of the guidelines.


----------



## abc (Dec 6, 2020)

For better or worse, I've been dividing my (WFH) life into period of "clean" periods of 2~4 weeks each, separated by a few days of "un-clean" period when I need to break my self-imposed isolation.

It's mostly for my own benefit. I'm not taking unnecessary risk of catching the virus (one of my biking buddy caught it, working in hospital. It's now 4 months, she still can only walk, too out of breath to run or bike). And also to avoid ANY risk of infecting my 84 year old Mom.

Still, life has to be lived. I have to get medical treatments for on-going issues. I have to get work done in my house from recent flooding damages. Car needs snow tires put on etc. (though the last isn't too much a risk)... So I group my contact with the outside world into 1-2 week periods. Then self-quarantine for 2 weeks before spending time with my Mom. At that point, I'm also theoretically eligible to travel to VT/NH or even Maine (though I have no plan for the latter). So I could go skiing in VT if I so desired. Though currently, the condition doesn't warrant the trip.

But when the season really starts (I always define a "season start" as mountain having 75% terrain open), I will ski VT (or NH) after each 2-week "clean" period. It's not much change from my current schedule anyway. And if I end up missing a few storm due to not being in position to travel to VT "legally", I can always ski Hunter.

Having the luxury of working remotely does simplify things considerable. I can stay up north for easily 1 to 2 week a time.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

MA Data.  I would like this explained like I said above with a scientific explanation.


----------



## da-bum (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> MA Data.  I would like this explained like I said above with a scientific explanation.


Don't you see a flattening of the curve 2 weeks after the mandate?

And your prior chart is a straw man argument for the uninformed.  If you don't know about the scandanavian culture vs the rest of europe, then you can swallow that is being presented.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

da-bum said:


> Don't you see a flattening of the curve 2 weeks after the mandate?
> 
> And your prior chart is a straw man argument for the uninformed.  If you don't know about the scandanavian culture vs the rest of europe, then you can swallow that is being presented



That is real scientific.  The curve was already coming down on the first mandate was going up on the second.  I hope that was not arm chair virology.  

Are you calling the rest of Europe dirty cultures vs the Norse cultures?


----------



## da-bum (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> That is real scientific.  The curve was already coming down on the first mandate was going up on the second.  I hope that was not arm chair virology.
> 
> Are you calling the rest of Europe dirty cultures vs the Norse cultures?


The usage of mask was discouraged despite prior research on the efficacy of masks on other resperatory virus.  It came around only when research on covid-19 started appearing, that is why it started getting widely adopted, regardless of whether the cases in the state were going up or down.

According to scandanavians themselves, they put more trust in goverment, thus whatever was recommended for them, they will take upon themselves to follow the advice.  It is also a much less densely populated than lower europe.  Why not expand mask usage comparision to the rest to the rest of the world, and you see cases practically non-existent in Asia.  Is it due to just the mask?  Or is it obedient culture?  Nobody will know until detailed studies are carried out.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

da-bum said:


> The usage of mask was discouraged despite prior research on the efficacy of masks on other resperatory virus.  It came around only when research on covid-19 started appearing, that is why it started getting widely adopted, regardless of whether the cases in the state were going up or down.
> 
> According to Scandinavians themselves, they put more trust in goverment, thus whatever was recommended for them, they will take upon themselves to follow the advice.  It is also a much less densely populated than lower europe.  Why not expand mask usage comparision to the rest to the rest of the world, and you see cases practically non-existent in Asia.  Is it due to just the mask?  Or is it obedient culture?  Nobody will know until detailed studies are carried out.


There still has been no peer reviewed paper that has proven the various types of mask work.  The Danish is the most recent one that should no real difference.  The Scandinavian theory could be true but their cities are pretty densely populated. In regards to the Asian,  there has been some papers non peer reviewed about the Asians might be less likely to contract it or be asymptomatic then other cultures as they are more exposed to other coronaviruses.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> There still has been no peer reviewed paper that has proven the various types of mask work.  The Danish is the most recent one that should no real difference.


We've been over the Danish study already. It proves very little one way or the other based on the very specific hypothesis that it was designed to test and based on various limitations of that study as a result. Simply saying it "showed no real difference" is misleading and out of context.


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

da-bum said:


> Why not expand mask usage comparision to the rest to the rest of the world, and you see cases practically non-existent in Asia. Is it due to just the mask? Or is it obedient culture? Nobody will know until detailed studies are carried out.


How does obedient culture help curb the virus transmission (that's not related to mask use)?


----------



## NYDB (Dec 7, 2020)

^They stay at home when they are sick


----------



## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> We've been over the Danish study already. It proves very little one way or the other based on the very specific hypothesis that it was designed to test and based on various limitations of that study as a result. Simply saying it "showed no real difference" is misleading and out of context.


Most studies have a specific hypothesis to prove or disprove.  I am not following your logic.


----------



## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

abc said:


> How does obedient culture help curb the virus transmission (that's not related to mask use)?


There are some theories for the Asian cultures that it is not mask usage or social distancing that is keeping cases low.  The Asian population might be more resisitant to the virus as they are more exposed to other coronaviruses thus giving more of an immunity for lack of a better word.


----------



## abc (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> There are some theories for the Asian cultures that it is not mask usage or social distancing that is keeping cases low.  The Asian population might be more resisitant to the virus as they are more exposed to other coronaviruses thus giving more of an immunity for lack of a better word


So it's not obedience then? 

Had any of those "theorist" had any data to verify their hypothesis? Anyone can roll out of bed and came up with a random "theory". It's worth about as much as the air it took to utter it.


----------



## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Most studies have a specific hypothesis to prove or disprove.  I am not following your logic.


Many of your posts seem to be pushing some sort of agenda that masks aren't effective. You claimed "_There still has been no peer reviewed paper that has proven the various types of mask work.  The Danish is the most recent one that should no real difference._" It is entirely misleading to even insinuate that the Danish study showed no difference in whether masks are used or not as people not familiar with the details of the study will start using it as "proof" that we shouldn't have mask mandates. It simply showed that there was no statistical proof that masks offered a 50% reduction in your chances of catching covid*. That study is practically useless in reality for using as any sort of basis to make any claims at all on the effectiveness of masks in today's real-world scenario with high case rates.

*There could have very well been a 10% difference, or 25%, etc, but the study simply wasn't large enough to be able to detect that from a statistical perspective. It also had numerous other flaws/limitations including relying on self-reporting of compliance by study participants, low case rates in the study environment to begin with, numerous social distancing and lockdown rules in place in the country, no accounting for where/how people that wore masks contracted covid, etc (for all we know, the "masked" people in the study that did catch covid caught it at home when they weren't wearing the masks. Even just a couple cases falling into that scenario would further illustrate the point on how little you can really learn about mask effectiveness from that study).


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## Puck it (Dec 7, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Many of your posts seem to be pushing some sort of agenda that masks aren't effective. You claimed "_There still has been no peer reviewed paper that has proven the various types of mask work.  The Danish is the most recent one that should no real difference._" It is entirely misleading to even insinuate that the Danish study showed no difference in whether masks are used or not as people not familiar with the details of the study will start using it as "proof" that we shouldn't have mask mandates. It simply showed that there was no statistical proof that masks offered a 50% reduction in your chances of catching covid*. That study is practically useless in reality for using as any sort of basis to make any claims at all on the effectiveness of masks in today's real-world scenario with high case rates.
> 
> *There could have very well been a 10% difference, or 25%, etc, but the study simply wasn't large enough to be able to detect that from a statistical perspective. It also had numerous other flaws/limitations including relying on self-reporting of compliance by study participants, low case rates in the study environment to begin with, numerous social distancing and lockdown rules in place in the country, no accounting for where/how people that wore masks contracted covid, etc (for all we know, the "masked" people in the study that did catch covid caught it at home when they weren't wearing the masks. Even just a couple cases falling into that scenario would further illustrate the point on how little you can really learn about mask effectiveness from that study).


No agenda.  You may have one since you do not like the Danish findings. I am looking for scientific data that supports the use.  I have numerous comparisons of with and without mandates from various states.  Montana and Wyoming is good one.  The Danish had some questions but not sure why you think the population study was not statistically valid.  You can pick apart any study if you want that is part of the scientific review process.


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## cdskier (Dec 7, 2020)

Puck it said:


> No agenda.  You may have one since you do not like the Danish findings. I am looking for scientific data that supports the use.  I have numerous comparisons of with and without mandates from various states.  Montana and Wyoming is good one.  The Danish had some questions but not sure why you think the population study was not statistically valid.  You can pick apart any study if you want that is part of the scientific review process.


It isn't that I don't like the Danish findings. It is just that the study proves very little and too many people want it to represent things it doesn't. I didn't say it isn't statistically valid. It is valid specifically for the 50% reduction part (in self-protection). But it is incapable of determining whether there is a smaller degree of protection (the author point blank admits this, so it isn't really a debatable point). It also did not test mask usage in terms of source control (which is thought to be the primary benefit of mask usage anyway).

You can say you have no agenda if you want, but you keep questioning mask effectiveness and mandates in multiple threads and posts. That isn't the typical behavior of someone that has no agenda. I'm not going to sit here and say there's scientific data that explicitly supports the use of them. The problem is that by the time studies fully testing that are designed, carried out, analyzed, and published, the pandemic will be over. 

I'll also say it again...mask mandates are one thing. Compliance is another. A politician can make all the rules and executive orders they want, but if people don't properly follow them, that doesn't mean the intent of the rule was misplaced.


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## raisingarizona (Dec 7, 2020)

As far as danish's go I really do love a good bear claw. 

Just wear the f-ing mask. Arguing over their effectiveness is dumb.


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## JimG. (Dec 7, 2020)

raisingarizona said:


> As far as danish's go I really do love a good bear claw.
> 
> Just wear the f-ing mask. Arguing over their effectiveness is dumb.


Thank you.


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## kbroderick (Dec 8, 2020)

Puck it said:


> No agenda.  You may have one since you do not like the Danish findings. I am looking for scientific data that supports the use.  I have numerous comparisons of with and without mandates from various states.  Montana and Wyoming is good one.  The Danish had some questions but not sure why you think the population study was not statistically valid.  You can pick apart any study if you want that is part of the scientific review process.


Montana vs Wyoming would only be a good comparison if people were complying with the Montana mandate. From what I've seen on Facebook, many aren't.

Likewise, the Dakotas would probably make a good case study now that one of the two has a mask mandate, but that only works if people are complying with the mandate in sufficient numbers. Without knowing accurate usage numbers, it's damn near impossible to prove effectiveness (or lack thereof), so we have to make do with best-guess theories, and the reality is that if wearing masks means we get to keep 20% moore of the economy open (feel free to pick your own arbitrary percentage), it's worth wearing them. 

It's kinda like seatbelts or avy beacons: if I actually end up using either, I probably screwed up, and so far my rate of needing the first is near zero since college, and of needing the second for anything other than practice searches or passing a checkpoint is zero. I'm still going to keep using both, because if I need them, it's going to have been worth it.


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)

raisingarizona said:


> As far as danish's go I really do love a good bear claw.
> 
> Just wear the f-ing mask. Arguing over their effectiveness is dumb.


I do when needed.  I don't need the government telling me to do so.  I have been cynical towards the government until this crap happened.  Now I do not trust any of them.  And no I am not a tin hat guy.


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> So it's not obedience then?
> 
> Had any of those "theorist" had any data to verify their hypothesis? Anyone can roll out of bed and came up with a random "theory". It's worth about as much as the air it took to utter it.


This is a non peer reviewed hypothesis.  And your comment is not worth the electrons used to transmit as it is very closed minded.


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## flakeydog (Dec 8, 2020)

Kansas- read about it.  

https://ipsr.ku.edu/covid19/images/MaskMandateUpdate.pdf
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6947e2-H.pdf

While I usually get most of my epidemiological information by asking provocative questions on ski forums, sometimes I branch out to google or even (gasp) the deep-state conspiracy theorists at the CDC.  We all have to bottom-feed once in a while....


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## Edd (Dec 8, 2020)

Puck it said:


> I do when needed.  I don't need the government telling me to do so.  I have been cynical towards the government until this crap happened.  Now I do not trust any of them.  And no I am not a tin hat guy.





Puck it said:


> This is a non peer reviewed hypothesis.  And your comment is not worth the electrons used to transmit as it is very closed minded.


You’re just an open minded guy who totally does not trust the government and is wondering out loud if masks are effective during a pandemic on a ski forum. Why don’t people get that?


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)

Edd said:


> You’re just an open minded guy who totally does not trust the government and is wondering out loud if masks are effective during a pandemic on a ski forum. Why don’t people get that?


Think what you like.  See.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

The part of the mask thing that does worry me, and this mostly applies to the virtue-signaling portion of the pro-mask crowd, is that they seem to believe while wearing a mask you become Superman, holding up your hand to stop machine gun bullets, or in this case, nanometer-sized viral particulate.   I've noticed a big drop in people's caution level in public over time.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

Puck it said:


> This is a non peer reviewed hypothesis.  And your comment is not worth the electrons used to transmit as it is very closed minded.



A "non-peer-reviewed hypothesis" with no supporting data would get any "theorist" laugh out of the room in any meaningful discussion. But I suspect the "theorist" in this case wasn't in the room to begin with, aka, just some random rambling from an armature.

Your mind is so "open" that everything leaks out of it, till there's nothing left!


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## Edd (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The part of the mask thing that does worry me, and this mostly applies to the virtue-signaling portion of the pro-mask crowd, is that they seem to believe while wearing a mask you become Superman, holding up your hand to stop machine gun bullets, or in this case, nanometer-sized viral particulate.   I've noticed a big drop in people's caution level in public over time.


I‘ve seen a similar argument applied, on this forum, to people wearing ski helmets being overly brave and I’ve never bought into it. A far larger concern to me is people behaving as you say and not wearing masks.


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## cdskier (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The part of the mask thing that does worry me, and this mostly applies to the virtue-signaling portion of the pro-mask crowd, is that they seem to believe while wearing a mask you become Superman, holding up your hand to stop machine gun bullets, or in this case, nanometer-sized viral particulate.   I've noticed a big drop in people's caution level in public over time.


That was actually one of the concerns as well raised in the Danish study as part of the author's analysis.



> _In addition, the wearer of a face mask may change to a less cautious behavior because of a false sense of security, as pointed out by WHO; accordingly, our face mask group seemed less worried, which may explain their increased willingness to wear face masks in the future. These challenges, including costs and availability, may reduce the efficacy of face masks to prevent SARS-CoV-2 infection._


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> A "non-peer-reviewed hypothesis" with no supporting data would get any "theorist" laugh out of the room in any meaningful discussion. But I suspect the "theorist" in this case wasn't in the room to begin with, aka, just some random rambling from an armature.
> 
> Your mind is so "open" that everything leaks out of it, till there's nothing left!


Open to other people's ideas to point that you don't believe it.  I never said that the theory was proven or accurate.  I put it out for discussion. Coronaviruses may be more common in Asia to do their cultures as they can be transmitted from animals to humans.


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)

Edd said:


> I‘ve seen a similar argument applied, on this forum, to people wearing ski helmets being overly brave and I’ve never bought into it. A far larger concern to me is people behaving as you say and not wearing masks.


Another example of this are hockey face masks.  But again it is hard o prove.


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## EPB (Dec 8, 2020)

Edd said:


> I‘ve seen a similar argument applied, on this forum, to people wearing ski helmets being overly brave and I’ve never bought into it. A far larger concern to me is people behaving as you say and not wearing masks.


I wish we had data on how fast the average or median person skis now vs. 1990 between better ski technology and the proliferation of helmets. I doubt that's knowable. What isn't controversial is that terrain parks and tree skiing (especially on the east coast) is far more prevalent than it was in 1990. It also isn't controversial to say that those activities are more dangerous than exclusively skiing a groomers or moguls.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

Edd said:


> I‘ve seen a similar argument applied, on this forum, to people wearing ski helmets being overly brave and I’ve never bought into it. A far larger concern to me is people behaving as you say and not wearing masks.


Or not wearing helmets...


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)




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## da-bum (Dec 8, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Open to other people's ideas to point that you don't believe it.  I never said that the theory was proven or accurate.  I put it out for discussion. Coronaviruses may be more common in Asia to do their cultures as they can be transmitted from animals to humans.


The high animal to human transmission might be applicable to certain sub-regions of asia, but it does not explain the vast swaths of east and southeast asia that has low infection rates.  The most likely explanation seems to be that they have more of a "we" culture vs our "me" culture.  Covid-19 is not a "Nobody is going to tell me to wear a seatbelt, and if I crash, I die" thing because if left unchecked, eventually it will reach a level until we reach herd immunity, which is some ideologue's end goal.  Even if it has a optimistically small 0.1% IFR, that could mean 7million deaths.



Puck it said:


> Another example of this are hockey face masks.  But again it is hard o prove.


A better example would be american football vs rugby.  One being a variation of the other, but both with minimal protection gear.  American football evolved into something where one has to wear full combat gear, supposedly for protection purpose, while the style also turned to a full combat sport.  All the extra head protection resulted in play techniques that are unsee in rugby, along with the high prevalence of CTE among players.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2020)

Not great news from Vermont.  The Vermont forecast points to a 50% increase in Covid-19 cases over the next 3 weeks.  However, there’s a lot unknown about the impact of Thanksgiving travel, and that could affect actual cases in either direction.


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 8, 2020)

The NFL says that there hasn't been any person to person contact on the field? Do you guys believe it?  If it is true, how?  Linebackers are in each others face on every play,  when someone gets tackled there are several players on top of them.  Anyway any thoughts?


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2020)

da-bum said:


> A better example would be american football vs rugby.  One being a variation of the other, but both with minimal protection gear.  American football evolved into something where one has to wear full combat gear, supposedly for protection purpose, while the style also turned to a full combat sport.  All the extra head protection resulted in play techniques that are unsee in rugby, along with the high prevalence of CTE among players.



At least on the college level, rugby players are much more likely to be injured.  Rugby players are 2.5 times as likely to suffer a concussion.








						Comparison of Injuries in American Collegiate Football and Club Rugby: A Prospective Cohort Study - PubMed
					

Overall injury rates were substantially higher in collegiate rugby compared with football. Similarities between sports were observed in the most common injury types (sprains and concussions), locations (lower extremity and head), and mechanisms (direct player contact). Upper extremity injuries...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




As a rugby fan this does not surprise me.  The referees are very careful about calling dangerous tackles, but there is still a lot of unintentional harmful contact.

Rugby is a MUCH more entertaining sport to watch than American football, however.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> The NFL says that there hasn't been any person to person contact on the field? Do you guys believe it?  If it is true, how?  Linebackers are in each others face on every play,  when someone gets tackled there are several players on top of them.  Anyway any thoughts?



I think you meant to say linemen, and I do agree, it seems unsafe due to the fact that barring some rest substitutions, you will likely play the entire game directly across from that same player.


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think you meant to say linemen, and I do agree, it seems unsafe due to the fact that barring some rest substitutions, you will likely play the entire game directly across from that same player.


I'm not a football fan so don't know about football specifically. But all the professional sports are counting on the "health bubble". 

So instead of limiting transmission within the players, they test frequently, hoping to identify and remove any source of transmission. 

It's the same idea New Zealand and Australia is doing. Full "normal" behavior within the bubble. Only the NFL and MLB are doing it (or trying it) with a "soft border". I don't fault them for trying, but it doesn't seem to work too well.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 8, 2020)

The NHL had the strictest "bubble", as it really was a no-go zone.  Nobody in, nobody out.  They were literally captive for several months.  Not a single COVID19+ case though.


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## icecoast1 (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> I'm not a football fan so don't know about football specifically. But all the professional sports are counting on the "health bubble".
> 
> So instead of limiting transmission within the players, they test frequently, hoping to identify and remove any source of transmission.
> 
> It's the same idea New Zealand and Australia is doing. Full "normal" behavior within the bubble. Only the NFL and MLB are doing it (or trying it) with a "soft border". I don't fault them for trying, but it doesn't seem to work too well.


The NFL and MLB arent doing any kind of bubble, they're simply testing players/coaches and when small outbreaks happen they shutdown facilities and reschedule games.  The refusal to do a true bubble is why their seasons have been a total shitshow 


The NHL did a true bubble where players were quarantined this past summer and they had no problems at all


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## da-bum (Dec 8, 2020)

VTKilarney said:


> At least on the college level, rugby players are much more likely to be injured.  Rugby players are 2.5 times as likely to suffer a concussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Concussion in rugby usually occurs on secondary impact.  Cases like that are noticeable and players would be pulled.  In american football, all the gearing gave a false sense of security, thus head on tackles have been normalized, where even though no concussion occurs, sub-concussive hits occurs regularly, resulting in extensive number of players with degenerative brain disease.


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## EPB (Dec 8, 2020)

abc said:


> Or not wearing helmets...


He's referring to something different. If I understand him correctly, he doesn't believe that people ski more recklessly despite the fact that almost everyone wears helmets which provides significant protection against brain injury vs. not wearing one. 

I haven't gone down the rabbit hole on this one, but I had an economics professor who really liked this subject. It's a matter of changing incentives/ risk vs. reward analysis which explains the intrigue from some economists (and why Edd and I seem to view this one differently  ). One striking example he would bring up include how much full-speed head-first/head-intensive tackling goes on in football vs. rugby. Apparently, despite the helmets and padding, football is at least as dangerous (if not more, IIRC) regarding head injuries. Apparently, hockey players also got much more reckless once they put extra pads and helmets on.  I'm no die hard hockey fan, but apparently collision speeds and the propensity for non-goalies to dive in front of shots has gone up substantially since the advent of modern helmets and padding.


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## dblskifanatic (Dec 8, 2020)

It is interesting that the initial mask mandate saw numbers reducing afterwards.  Mask use has been broadly accepted by most and today I see more people wearing masks than when the initial mask mandate came out.  Yet, the numbers have sky rocketed.  I now know of six people who work together in an environment where masks are required and they all have covid.   All were wearing masks.  I think there has been a lot of pressure on others with quotes like "save a life wear a mask".  That has created complacency where people think they are fully protected while wearing a mask and others around you are also wearing a mask which is totally false.  It reduces the chances.  If people are worried about getting covid then the best solution is isolation.

We moved from Colorado to Boston and drove through 9 states - ate in all of them and slept in four.  We mind our own business and do not mingle with crowds we do not know.  I feel safe with our approach to travel and living our lives.  The problem is not with those that go about their own business - the problem lies within the crowd gather events like universities, or people that have covid fatigue and are gathering in any case.

Politicians are making rules that are not fully vetted and hurting families and individuals that are at wits end.  The sheer number of businesses that have gone under or will after this next go around is nuts!  Shutting down restaurants  like they are in Colorado or New Mexico was not necessary!


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## abc (Dec 8, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> It is interesting that the initial mask mandate saw numbers reducing afterwards. Mask use has been broadly accepted by most and today I see more people wearing masks than when the initial mask mandate came out. Yet, the numbers have sky rocketed. I now know of six people who work together in an environment where masks are required and they all have covid. All were wearing masks.


When Covid first hit, it was definitely in clusters. NYC got the headline. But in reality, it was actually specific part of the city, in some  neighborhood of Queens, Brooklyn and Bronx. Staten Island and Manhattan had much lower cases. I didn't know of anyone who got infected until late May or June when I heard the first case (sadly, she passed away shortly as a direct result)

But now, it's more wide spread. I've heard several people had it. They live all over the place. Manhattan, even northern Westchester.

There's definitely covid fatique. But some of it are also inevitability. I can't tell you how many times I broke isolation myself out of necessity. When something in my house breaks, I had to have it repaired. Zoos of people in and out of my very sacred space! And when my body part breaks (ok, tooth), I had to have it repaired also. Inches from the dentist! I narrowly avoided having to visit an optometrist. Again another inches from the breath of another stranger!!!

Back in March, we have a small number of infected people, who infected MANY others in an uncontrolled environment.

Now, we have many more number of infected people. So even with mask and social distance, we're still getting some transmission. Can you imagine if we don't do anything (no social distance, no mask, tons of indoor gathering...)? With many more infected virus source going all over the place as they "normally" do as in March, what would the infection number be like?

Can we separate the effect of mask vs social distance vs gathering? I wish some medical research people would do some hard research and give us the answer. But so far, no dice. We're left to "do our best" base on what we know, which is incomplete. That's unfortunately the best we can do, even if it's not quite as good as we want.


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## 1dog (Dec 8, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> It is interesting that the initial mask mandate saw numbers reducing afterwards.  Mask use has been broadly accepted by most and today I see more people wearing masks than when the initial mask mandate came out.  Yet, the numbers have sky rocketed.  I now know of six people who work together in an environment where masks are required and they all have covid.   All were wearing masks.  I think there has been a lot of pressure on others with quotes like "save a life wear a mask".  That has created complacency where people think they are fully protected while wearing a mask and others around you are also wearing a mask which is totally false.  It reduces the chances.  If people are worried about getting covid then the best solution is isolation.
> 
> We moved from Colorado to Boston and drove through 9 states - ate in all of them and slept in four.  We mind our own business and do not mingle with crowds we do not know.  I feel safe with our approach to travel and living our lives.  The problem is not with those that go about their own business - the problem lies within the crowd gather events like universities, or people that have covid fatigue and are gathering in any case.
> 
> Politicians are making rules that are not fully vetted and hurting families and individuals that are at wits end.  The sheer number of businesses that have gone under or will after this next go around is nuts!  Shutting down restaurants  like they are in Colorado or New Mexico was not necessary!


Our own governor in MA has just set us back to Level 3 and 40% capacity - worse yet, he is sending elderly people w Covid to nursing homes ( 2/3 of the 11K MA deaths are elderly, most in nursing homes) We know of a neighboring governor who made this mistake back in Feb. Charlie says its gonna be isolated though, so I'm relieved. But have no fear, Covid will wait until Sunday night at midnight - this weekend you can still eat in a restaurant with no mask - after midnight Sunday - you must wear a mask at the table - unless you are eating.

'hurting families and individuals' is an understatement. Add small businesses - think of the billions that flowed from them to Amazon alone.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2020)

Win Smith is taking questions for a Covid-19 ski area live Q/A on December 9th at 5:30 PM.
Details here:








						FAQ LIVE: Send in your questions about the pandemic ski season
					

Many experts see skiing as a safe, socially distanced option for getting out of the house this year — but Covid-19 is still expected to have a major effect on winter sports areas. What can skiers expect at the slopes? How are resorts ensuring the safety of their guests? And how will state...



					vtdigger.org


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## icecoast1 (Dec 8, 2020)

1dog said:


> 'hurting families and individuals' is an understatement. Add small businesses - think of the billions that flowed from them to Amazon alone.



Bezos probably salivates at the thought of more government imposed restrictions and lockdowns.  They might not do much to slow the spread of Covid, but they will do a great job of adding billions more to his pockets as more small businesses are destroyed


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## Puck it (Dec 8, 2020)

1dog said:


> Our own governor in MA has just set us back to Level 3 and 40% capacity - worse yet, he is sending elderly people w Covid to nursing homes ( 2/3 of the 11K MA deaths are elderly, most in nursing homes) We know of a neighboring governor who made this mistake back in Feb. Charlie says its gonna be isolated though, so I'm relieved. But have no fear, Covid will wait until Sunday night at midnight - this weekend you can still eat in a restaurant with no mask - after midnight Sunday - you must wear a mask at the table - unless you are eating.
> 
> 'hurting families and individuals' is an understatement. Add small businesses - think of the billions that flowed from them to Amazon alone.


Baker is a criminal and should jailed for the soldiers home debacle in Holyoke. He fired two underlings to save his ass. Why does he wait 6, 8 or 10 days to impose his orders. If it is that important why do it immediately. He is one of the reasons I became a NH resident.


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## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Baker is a criminal and should jailed for the soldiers home debacle in Holyoke. He fired two underlings to save his ass. Why does he wait 6, 8 or 10 days to impose his orders. If it is that important why do it immediately. He is one of the reasons I became a NH resident.


Lucky us in NH.


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## ss20 (Dec 8, 2020)

Today I got reprimanded at Crystal for the mask.  I was alone on a six person chairlift, pulling into the top terminal.  Lifty was FURIOUS and told me I needed the mask up at the top of the chairlift....which I'm riding alone....outside....moving....

At the base I get it because there's people all around.  Can't say I agree with wearing it up top but apparently that is the rule?  I honestly have no idea.  Seems excessive to me on a Tuesday in early December when there's 400 people total across 1500+ acres of terrain.


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## kingslug (Dec 9, 2020)

Either he is afraid to catch it from riders getting off the lift near him. Or his boss told him to do it..or else.


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## Puck it (Dec 9, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Lucky us in NH.


Yup you are.


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## drjeff (Dec 9, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Today I got reprimanded at Crystal for the mask.  I was alone on a six person chairlift, pulling into the top terminal.  Lifty was FURIOUS and told me I needed the mask up at the top of the chairlift....which I'm riding alone....outside....moving....
> 
> At the base I get it because there's people all around.  Can't say I agree with wearing it up top but apparently that is the rule?  I honestly have no idea.  Seems excessive to me on a Tuesday in early December when there's 400 people total across 1500+ acres of terrain.


Many resorts seem to be going with the concept that its OK to have your mask down a bit while you are "ACTIVELY skiing/riding" down the hill, but otherwise it has to be covering your face/nose completely.

Does it really make that much difference in the big scheme of things what you were doing? Very, very, very likely not.

Is it something that potentially some emboldened, power hungry Dept of Public Health official *might* take notice to *if* they happened to see it? Could be. And if so might that have a negative consequence towards the ski area and ski industry in this crazy time? Unfortunately yes.

Just easier to keep your mask up at the base and summit terminal areas while on a lift right now. The ski industry doesn't need any additional scrutiny from various government officials right now for sure. And regardless of the science or our own personal freedoms, I think we all can agree that we want ski areas to be able to operate!


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## 1dog (Dec 9, 2020)

Puck it said:


> Baker is a criminal and should jailed for the soldiers home debacle in Holyoke. He fired two underlings to save his ass. Why does he wait 6, 8 or 10 days to impose his orders. If it is that important why do it immediately. He is one of the reasons I became a NH resident.



A large donation from the nursing home industry group to both he ad his Lt Gov could be the reason for a lack of an uproar. And hey, if it didn't work the 1st time, let's try it all over again.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 9, 2020)

Utah ski season expected to be busy despite pandemic, drought
					

More than half of Utah’s ski resorts have opened for the season despite a painfully dry snowpack year.




					www.fox13now.com


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