# Crown Point Bridge CLOSED



## noski (Oct 16, 2009)

http://www.poststar.com/news/local/article_e77cd748-ba8b-11de-9ff0-001cc4c03286.html 

I am not sure if any of you come to VT via the Crown Point Bridge (NY), but if so, you will want to keep an eye on this. The bridge could be closed for several weeks.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 16, 2009)

Well if it's a cold winter they can open up an ice road ...


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## 4aprice (Oct 17, 2009)

I've used that bridge for years.  I got sick of 22A all the way up and took that route most of the time traveling to N VT from North Jersey.  It's approximately the same amount of time anyway.  Beautiful drive betrween Champlain and 87.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## nelsapbm (Oct 17, 2009)

Totally sucks for the locals. Lots of folks live in Ti, Crown Point, Fort Henry and commute to Goodrich in Vergennes or up the Burlington area for work. Also, quite a few folks live in the Vergennes/Middlebury area and work in Ti at the paper plant. People now face $20+ a day for the ferry and all the extra time or drive all the way down to Whitehall and back around. Not fun.


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## gladerider (Oct 18, 2009)

i hope they re-open soon. this is how i get to Bush.


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## faceplant (Nov 1, 2009)

*Lk Champlain bridge down indefinately*

shoot

*A bridge to nowhere*
When the historic Lake Champlain Bridge closed, it was more than an annoyance - it entirely upended a way of life
ADDISON, Vt. - It was so much more than a bridge. When Governor Franklin D. Roosevelt of New York helped open Lake Champlain Bridge in 1929, he and tens of thousands of onlookers were celebrating the future of automobile travel and the expectations of roadside commerce. The 728-yard span across the 120-mile-long lake was a gleaming marvel of engineering that would change the way people and goods moved forever.
Forever isn’t what it used to be. The rusting bridge was closed indefinitely on Oct. 16 after inspectors discovered that the deterioration of at least two of the 80-year-old concrete piers raised the threat of imminent collapse. And just as so much more than a bridge was built, so much more than a bridge has been lost.


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## skizilla (Nov 1, 2009)

*Skiing effects*

How would this effect skiing is it a major artery to some ski areas or is  it a locals only issue?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 1, 2009)

It's a popular route for some coming from NY to the Northern Greens.  There are alternatives however that really aren't that much of a further drive.


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## noski (Nov 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> It's a popular route for some coming from NY to the Northern Greens.  There are alternatives however that really aren't that much of a further drive.


  That is true- unless you are unfortunate enough to not know about the closure until you get there....  Here is an official website to keep you up to date: https://www.nysdot.gov/lakechamplainbridge


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2009)

Bridge is unrepairable and will be demolished and replaced.  I feel bad for the local economy who rely on the bridge for every day transportation.  That said, I'm glad they caught this before another catastrophe happened like in Minnesota.



http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509645.html?nav=5017


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## tjf67 (Nov 10, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Bridge is unrepairable and will be demolished and replaced.  I feel bad for the local economy who rely on the bridge for every day transportation.  That said, I'm glad they caught this before another catastrophe happened like in Minnesota.
> 
> 
> 
> http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509645.html?nav=5017



I hope with there wisdom they go check the bridge 20 miles up the lake.   Was built with the same type of construction and it is looking  pretty shabby.    

.


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## nelsapbm (Nov 11, 2009)

There is a bridge 20 miles north of Crown Point? News to me LOL and I live right near there. The next bridge north of Crown Point is at Rouses Point NY/Alburgh VT, about a 1/2 mile (if that) south of the Canadian border.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 11, 2009)

was going to say, Crowne Point is the only bridge I was aware of outside of up in the Grand Isles


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## koreshot (Nov 12, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Bridge is unrepairable and will be demolished and replaced.  I feel bad for the local economy who rely on the bridge for every day transportation.  That said, I'm glad they caught this before another catastrophe happened like in Minnesota.
> 
> 
> 
> http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509645.html?nav=5017



Doh, how the heck am I supposed to get to Stowe now from Albany.  I guess I'll have to take the Glen's Falls route.


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## tjf67 (Nov 12, 2009)

nelsapbm said:


> There is a bridge 20 miles north of Crown Point? News to me LOL and I live right near there. The next bridge north of Crown Point is at Rouses Point NY/Alburgh VT, about a 1/2 mile (if that) south of the Canadian border.





OK so may be it is 30-40 miles up the lake.  the point was it is falling apart to.


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## Warp Daddy (Nov 12, 2009)

The Rouses Point Bridge was replaced with a new bridge as was the other bridge on the Island leading toward Swanton


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## Glenn (Nov 12, 2009)

I'm disapointed drjeff hasn't chimed in on a thread that has dental terms in the title.....


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## drjeff (Nov 12, 2009)

Glenn said:


> I'm disapointed drjeff hasn't chimed in on a thread that has dental terms in the title.....



For Glenn's sake  :lol:

I like when (dental) bridges fail [size=-4]as long as they're not bridges that I made for the patient[/size]  

Helps to add to my quiver of toys when that happens


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## Glenn (Nov 12, 2009)




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## drjeff (Nov 12, 2009)

Glenn said:


>



What, no standing ovation???

:lol:


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## Glenn (Nov 13, 2009)

drjeff said:


> What, no standing ovation???
> 
> :lol:




HA! If I could only find an animated .gif.....


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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 13, 2009)

drjeff said:


> What, no standing ovation???
> 
> :lol:



Little full of ourselves are we?:razz:


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## drjeff (Nov 13, 2009)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Little full of ourselves are we?:razz:



Actually very often folks tell me I'm full of something,  and "myself" isn't what they say  :lol:


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## mlctvt (Dec 28, 2009)

Bridge is now gone for good..

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/there-she-blows-17337654


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> Bridge is now gone for good..
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/there-she-blows-17337654




I'd be curious to read what they used to catch the debris.  With VT being a fairly environmentally friendly state, I wouldn't think they'd just blow it up and let the debris sink to the bottom.


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## millerm277 (Dec 28, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be curious to read what they used to catch the debris.  With VT being a fairly environmentally friendly state, I wouldn't think they'd just blow it up and let the debris sink to the bottom.



According to what I've read, yup. And then they're going to gather it up off the bottom before April. Being so old, I'd figure there wasn't much that was "dangerous" there, just metal and concrete....neither of which are likely to be rare on the bottom of a lake.


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## WJenness (Dec 28, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> According to what I've read, yup. And then they're going to gather it up off the bottom before April. Being so old, I'd figure there wasn't much that was "dangerous" there, just metal and concrete....neither of which are likely to be rare on the bottom of a lake.



Before April?

Does the lake freeze in this area? I know the deepest parts of the lake don't freeze all that often, but I don't know where this bridge is.

-w


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## wa-loaf (Dec 28, 2009)

Kinda sad to see a cool old bridge disappear. I'm sure whatever replaces it will just be a bland road over the lake.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2009)

WJenness said:


> Before April?
> 
> Does the lake freeze in this area? I know the deepest parts of the lake don't freeze all that often, but I don't know where this bridge is.
> 
> -w



yes, it does freeze in that area.  The only part of the lake that rarely freezes is the widest part off the coast of Burlington.


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## WJenness (Dec 28, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> yes, it does freeze in that area.  The only part of the lake that rarely freezes is the widest part off the coast of Burlington.



Isn't that going to make getting the debris out prior to April rather difficult?

-w


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## deadheadskier (Dec 28, 2009)

WJenness said:


> Isn't that going to make getting the debris out prior to April rather difficult?
> 
> -w



One would think.

I'm actually surprised they demolished it.  I would've figured they would've left it up as a walking bridge, re-routed the road and put up a new bridge beside it.  That was what they did on route 16 going over the Piscataqua in Newington, NH.  Also what they did more recently over the Penobscot Narrows in Maine.


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## WJenness (Dec 28, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> One would think.
> 
> I'm actually surprised they demolished it.  I would've figured they would've left it up as a walking bridge, re-routed the road and put up a new bridge beside it.  That was what they did on route 16 going over the Piscataqua in Newington, NH.  Also what they did more recently over the Penobscot Narrows in Maine.



One of the articles I read said that it was in danger of toppling on its own (with or without traffic)... If true, that's a good reason to take it down.

-w


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## Glenn (Dec 28, 2009)

This has been pretty big news in VT on the local news channels. Last night, they showed footage of a woman at a public hearing who was highly agitated about the bridge closing...and rightfully so. People need to take an 80 mile detour now. It's just unreal that they let the bridge fall into such disrepair.


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## bvibert (Dec 29, 2009)

mlctvt said:


> Bridge is now gone for good..
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/there-she-blows-17337654



It's amazing how quickly it went from carrying traffic to being gone.  If it was deteriorated so badly that they were afraid it would collapse on it's own you'd think it would have been closed a long time ago.

The dude who came on just after the woman in the video sounded like a tool...


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## WJenness (Dec 29, 2009)

bvibert said:


> It's amazing how quickly it went from carrying traffic to being gone.  If it was deteriorated so badly that they were afraid it would collapse on it's own you'd think it would have been closed a long time ago.
> 
> The dude who came on just after the woman in the video sounded like a tool...



The state of bridge inspection / maintenance across our country is actually pretty scary from what I've read... Not enough hands and eyeballs (read: $$$) to do what really should be done. When it comes down to it, it's a lot easier to cut bridge inspections out of the budget than a special needs teacher at an inner city school... (or any other hart string type expenditure).

-w


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## Plowboy (Jan 1, 2010)

This guy is good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNLMg6_JCGM


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## riverc0il (Jan 1, 2010)

bvibert said:


> It's amazing how quickly it went from carrying traffic to being gone.  If it was deteriorated so badly that they were afraid it would collapse on it's own you'd think it would have been closed a long time ago.


When I lived in VT, VPR had tons of stories about how the state's bridges were mostly in various states of disrepair. Those were always scary news casts to listen to as I usually heard them in my car while driving over some of those same bridges. 

Unfortunately, this is not unique to Vermont and we saw that huge bridge failure out in MN a year or two ago. Lots of bridges were built at the same time as our highways were built up and that infrastructure is reaching the need of serious repair or retirement.... at a time when budgets are tighter than ever and increasing taxes is political and suicide.


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## Geoff (Jan 1, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> When I lived in VT, VPR had tons of stories about how the state's bridges were mostly in various states of disrepair. Those were always scary news casts to listen to as I usually heard them in my car while driving over some of those same bridges.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is not unique to Vermont and we saw that huge bridge failure out in MN a year or two ago. Lots of bridges were built at the same time as our highways were built up and that infrastructure is reaching the need of serious repair or retirement.... at a time when budgets are tighter than ever and increasing taxes is political and suicide.



Vermont opted to spend big on social services rather than maintain their infrastructure.  Their public policy doesn't seem to consider the economic impact of their tax policy or their allocation of those tax dollars.   The Vermont side of the Connecticut River valley is an economic wasteland as businesses opted to move over the river to a more business-friendly New Hampshire.  If you sit in Chittenden County where all the people live with the Canadian border to the north and a big long lake to the west, you probably don't care that the Crown Point Bridge doesn't exist or that places like White River Junction and Bellows Falls have become economic wastelands.


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## evantrentful (Jan 1, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> One would think.
> 
> I'm actually surprised they demolished it.  I would've figured they would've left it up as a walking bridge, re-routed the road and put up a new bridge beside it.  That was what they did on route 16 going over the Piscataqua in Newington, NH.  Also what they did more recently over the Penobscot Narrows in Maine.



The main concern came over the bridge piers. They found huge deep cracks formed in the piers, far larger than imagined. The fear was that a strong broadside wind on the superstructure would cause enough weight shift to one side that the piers would give out, and the bridge topple over. 

Ive got to imagine it would have cost huge money just to refurbish it enough to leave open for human traffic.

Its crazyyy that it was allowed to get that bad


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 1, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Unfortunately, this is not unique to Vermont and we saw that huge bridge failure out in MN a year or two ago. Lots of bridges were built at the same time as our highways were built up and that infrastructure is reaching the need of serious repair or retirement.... at a time when budgets are tighter than ever and increasing taxes is political and suicide.



The Crown Point bridge was actually supposed to be maintained by New York. But they don't have any money for fancy preventative maintenance either. They really let the bridge go downhill when they discontinued the toll 10 or 15 years ago. My guess is they knew the bridge was going to need a lot of work in the near future and didn't want a bunch of people asking where all the toll money was going when the subject of closing the bridge eventually came up. At least that is my little conspiracy theory :smile: Those tolls were probably buying NYC new subway cars instead of going toward a bridge repair/replacement fund anyway.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Vermont opted to spend big on social services rather than maintain their infrastructure.  Their public policy doesn't seem to consider the economic impact of their tax policy or their allocation of those tax dollars.   The Vermont side of the Connecticut River valley is an economic wasteland as businesses opted to move over the river to a more business-friendly New Hampshire.  If you sit in Chittenden County where all the people live with the Canadian border to the north and a big long lake to the west, you probably don't care that the Crown Point Bridge doesn't exist or that places like White River Junction and Bellows Falls have become economic wastelands.



agree for the most part

you see the same thing in Seabrook, NH being quite prosperous and Salisbury, MA being a wasteland.

Bellowsfalls?  been economically depressed as long as I recall since I entered High School 5 miles down the road in 1990.  While a nice community, Walpole across the river isn't exactly a thriving economy.  

Downstream, Brattleboro is actually a far more diverse economy than Keene across the way; this despite Keene having the advantage of being home to a decent sized College.  BF has the highway benefit.

White River is glaring though.  Completely depressed despite being a few 9 irons from the Hanover/Lebanon upper valley area that might be the most thriving Northern New England regional economy save for Chittenden County.

There's more to it than just politics / business climate, but you have a valid point


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## Geoff (Jan 2, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> agree for the most part
> 
> you see the same thing in Seabrook, NH being quite prosperous and Salisbury, MA being a wasteland.
> 
> ...



Try going shopping in Brattleboro.   Anything big ticket or big box is over the river.   You can find clothing (Sam's) since that's not taxed.   You can find restaurants and little shops that cater to the drive-by tourist business.  Good luck finding a television or a washing machine.   I'd love to hear a real example of Brattleboro's "diverse economy".   I've never seen any evidence of anything but low paying service jobs.  I'll bet the Brattleboro retreat is the biggest employer.   Staff positions in a nut house aren't typically high paying.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jan 2, 2010)

wa-loaf said:


> . I'm sure whatever replaces it will just be a bland road over the lake.



I wouldn't be so sure about that...try checking the internet and you will easily find the four designs they were considering and the one they have decidied to go with. Personally I think a bland road over the lake would be the cheapest and the quickest to be constructed.



> Originally Posted by Geoff
> Vermont opted to spend big on social services rather than maintain their infrastructure. Their public policy doesn't seem to consider the economic impact of their tax policy or their allocation of those tax dollars. The Vermont side of the Connecticut River valley is an economic wasteland as businesses opted to move over the river to a more business-friendly New Hampshire. If you sit in Chittenden County where all the people live with the Canadian border to the north and a big long lake to the west, you probably don't care that the Crown Point Bridge doesn't exist or that places like White River Junction and Bellows Falls have become economic wastelands.



Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.


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## riverc0il (Jan 2, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.


Not total BS. As I recall, VT has a big box store law limiting the amount of square footage a retailer can operate. Suffice to say, the business climate in NH is much better than its neighbors. 

This is not unique to NH/VT... look at all of NHs primary entrances and exits. They all have major shopping and business districts next to towns in other states that do not. Methuen, MA managed to rebound with The Loop but they lost the mall competition to NH. Nashua, Portsmouth, North Conway, etc. It is not just a NH/VT thing.

Though SRO does have a great point that the Walmarts have been driven across the river by the local communities. I got into StJ just after things had settled down. The story I got was that StJ thought a Walmart would kill downtown. It turned out that not having a Walmart killed downtown.


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## Geoff (Jan 2, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.



So you're saying the state of Vermont has nothing to do with Act 250?   It's not "completely local".   Out of towners routinely use the law to halt projects.   Anybody can stop anything for months through Act 250 provisions.   Or the sky-high health insurance costs in the state?   Or the sky-high workmans comp in the state?   Or the highest in the region personal and corporate income taxes?   Or the sky-high Act 68 school tax on commercial real estate?   I've never seen anywhere so anti-business.   The best jobs in the state are at IBM and their Essex Junction plant  has been on the market for years and has seen zero capital investment for years.   The only way the state can get companies to come in is to offer them waivers on the sky-high business costs.   It's not exactly a level playing field since every other business in the state gets screwed over by them.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Try going shopping in Brattleboro.   Anything big ticket or big box is over the river.   You can find clothing (Sam's) since that's not taxed.   You can find restaurants and little shops that cater to the drive-by tourist business.  Good luck finding a television or a washing machine.   I'd love to hear a real example of Brattleboro's "diverse economy".   I've never seen any evidence of anything but low paying service jobs.  I'll bet the Brattleboro retreat is the biggest employer.   Staff positions in a nut house aren't typically high paying.



If I had to guess, CNS Wholesale is probably the largest employer in Brattleboro.  If where you buy a TV is your barometer for economic prosperity, then perhaps Keene is better.  If you want to judge by dining, arts, general 'liveliness' of the downtown, Brattleboro is hands down a more thriving community than Keene.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 2, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Complete BS. It never ceases to amaze me how some are quick to blame the state of Vermont for things that they do not control. The reason businesses went over the river to NH was decided by the towns that the businesses might be located in. Three Wamarts were proposed for 3 towns about 10 years ago on the Vermont side but local oposition drove them to NH. The state would love the sales/property tax revenue that the new businesses would have brought in if they were built in Vermont. Act 250 is state law but the process is totally local and controlled by the local selectboard.



This is correct.  One of those towns being Bennington.  The town of Bennington put in a local ordinance capping retail floor space at 75K square feet.  Most new Walmarts exceed 100K.  The ordinance was put in place with the express purpose of preventing a proposed Walmart.   Same thing happened in St. Albans prior to there.

I think Act 250 does serve a good purpose in reviewing projects and letting the community have a say in how things change.  

I had to leave Vermont because I could not make the kind of living I wanted to; even in Burlington VT.  It is a tough business climate.  However, I do respect that the people of the state are willing to make great economic sacrifices in order to preserve their way of life.   I wish NH had at least a partially similar mindset.  The biggest example of this was returning to North Conway 5 years ago for the first time in 20 years.  I used to go vacationing there all the time as a kid.  I remember it had a lot of charm and being sort of the Stowe of New Hampshire.  Now it looks like New Jersey


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## Geoff (Jan 3, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> The biggest example of this was returning to North Conway 5 years ago for the first time in 20 years.  I used to go vacationing there all the time as a kid.  I remember it had a lot of charm and being sort of the Stowe of New Hampshire.  Now it looks like New Jersey



Have you been to South Burlington recently?


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## noski (Jan 14, 2010)

*Crown Point Bridge Replacement Design*

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/86892 

Replacement bridge design has been announced.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 14, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Have you been to South Burlington recently?



yes, it looks like Jersey.

Thankfully not all of the state is that way.  I enjoy living in New Hampshire, but there's a dozen South Burlington like areas in this state at least.  I really don't care for the homoginization of America in the name of economic progress.


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## Glenn (Jan 14, 2010)

I hope VT can work things out. The state spends more money than it takes in, they don't have a huge population (tax base), and jobs keep leaving the state.


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## marcski (Jan 14, 2010)

Geoff said:


> Try going shopping in Brattleboro.   Anything big ticket or big box is over the river.   You can find clothing (Sam's) since that's not taxed.   You can find restaurants and little shops that cater to the drive-by tourist business.  Good luck finding a television or a washing machine.   I'd love to hear a real example of Brattleboro's "diverse economy".   I've never seen any evidence of anything but low paying service jobs.  I'll bet the Brattleboro retreat is the biggest employer.   Staff positions in a nut house aren't typically high paying.





deadheadskier said:


> If I had to guess, CNS Wholesale is probably the largest employer in Brattleboro.  If where you buy a TV is your barometer for economic prosperity, then perhaps Keene is better.  If you want to judge by dining, arts, general 'liveliness' of the downtown, Brattleboro is hands down a more thriving community than Keene.



I'd say the Hospital might be the biggest employer.  Could be the City too, esp. if you include the school teachers.


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## Geoff (Jan 14, 2010)

marcski said:


> I'd say the Hospital might be the biggest employer.  Could be the City too, esp. if you include the school teachers.



It might be the nut house... err.. Brattleboro Retreat.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jan 20, 2010)

i don't think having big box stores and washing machines is a sign of a vibrant economy while having a tourist-based economy results in an inferior wasteland (rough summary of some of the posts on the thread).

walmart jobs and strip malls is not a way to build for the future, but it does make things more convenient and less expensive.  in that way, NH is sort of jersey north.

anyway, chronic under-investment in infrastructure is a nation-wide problem and is not a sympton of vermont's social policies (and, as mentioned by someone, the friggin' bridge wasn't even vermont's responsibility!!!  lol.).


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## twinplanx (Jan 18, 2011)

bump for question: Is said bridge back in action?


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 18, 2011)

twinplanx said:


> bump for question: Is said bridge back in action?



Scheduled to open to traffic in October 2011.

https://www.nysdot.gov/lakechamplainbridge/bridgecam


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## nelsapbm (Jan 18, 2011)

As NEK mentioned....this fall (hopefully). There is a free 24/7 ferry running in its place.


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