# Killington snowmaking to start Oct. 26th, plus misc hype....



## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

> *With snowmaking scheduled to start here at Killington in 56 days *(weather permitting of course), we’re getting pretty excited to play with some new toys.
> 
> We’re pitting snowmaking companies HKD and Techno Alpine against one another for an all out snowmaking war on the slopes of Killington this season. Two runs, two companies, may the best gun win!
> 
> ...



Great, *BUT WHAT ABOUT SNOWMAKING ON DEVILS FIDDLE????*


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks K, now that you've set your target date, we can pretty much guarentee a 7 to 10 days warm spell about them  

Glad to see that Powdr is continuing to realize that one of the main things that K built its reputation on is early season skiing and flexing their snowmaking might to do so!  Any early season snowmaking buzz is good of ALL of the Northeast Ski Industry!


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

This is pretty decent.....but in reality not any better than the last 7 years or so.  Ever since they started the K-1 opening, they start making snow in late October.  

What they really need is a new upper mountain lift that would allow them to offer skiing with downloading on the K-1.  Or a midstation on the K-1.  Or a handle tow on upper Downdraft.  Or more intense snowmaking on bittersweet/skyelark that would let them open superstar first.

*DISCUSSED HERE, PAGE 9:*

http://forums.alpinezone.com/62161-killington-snowmaking-start-oct-26th-plus-misc-hype-9.html


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## Vortex (Sep 1, 2009)

Competition in good.  Great to take a day off for turns in Oct.  I have the last two years.  Looks like K and the River will be making an early start,


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> What they really need is a new upper mountain lift that would allow them to offer skiing with downloading on the K-1.  Or a midstation on the K-1.  Or a handle tow on upper Downdraft.  Or more intense snowmaking on bittersweet/skyelark that would let them open superstar first.


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## Vortex (Sep 1, 2009)

An upper mountain lift would make a difference big time.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 1, 2009)

congrats Killington..good chance they will be open before Thanksgiving if mother nature co-operates


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## Johnskiismore (Sep 1, 2009)

Good news, I like it!  I hope this is the path Powdr will follow in terms of early season snowmaking.  Just made reservations at the Happy Bear Motel in February, my girlfriend has been wanting to go to K for years and this is the year.  Now I just need cheaper tickets!  ;-)


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## thetrailboss (Sep 1, 2009)

Bob R said:


> An upper mountain lift would make a difference big time.



No doubt.  I'm sure that eventually Killington will hear HS on this one.  He has been voicing this concern for over two years now.


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> congrats Killington..good chance they will be open before Thanksgiving if mother nature co-operates



Are you being sarcastic?  Some seasons in the past they have opened Oct. 1st.


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> No doubt.  I'm sure that eventually Killington will hear HS on this one.  He has been voicing this concern for over two years now.



They are still preparing to spring into action. LOL.

Interestingly, I have actually talked to Tom Horrocks about this, IN PERSON, at least 2 years ago.  

It was one of the MAJOR things a consultant recommended for the mountain.  Also on that list was replacing the snowdon quad, south ridge triple, skye quad, and building the interconnect (IIRC).

Eventually, they are going to get rained out past Thanksgiving and not be able to open until early December.  Then they will cave in and do it.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Are you being sarcastic?  Some seasons in the past they have opened Oct. 1st.



well anything before Thanksgiving is a bonus with the new management..we doing a skioff this year??? Mandatory GS turns?


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## Newpylong (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> This is pretty decent.....but in reality not any better than the last 7 years or so.  Ever since they started the K-1 opening, they start making snow in late October.
> 
> What they really need is a new upper mountain lift that would allow them to offer skiing with downloading on the K-1.  Or a midstation on the K-1.  Or a handle tow on upper Downdraft.  Or more intense snowmaking on bittersweet/skyelark that would let them open superstar first.




Dude. GIVE THIS STUFF up. There will never be a midstation on K1, or a handle tow on downdraft. You just keep spitting the same stuff out, over, and over, and over again.


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Dude. GIVE THIS STUFF up. There will never be a midstation on K1, or a handle tow on downdraft. You just keep spitting the same stuff out, over, and over, and over again.



Do you have any new material to offer up?  

It's important to stay on message, so I'll just keep repeating myself.  *They really need an upper mountain lift for early season skiing.*


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Do you have any new material to offer up?
> 
> It's important to stay on message, so I'll just keep repeating myself.  *They really need an upper mountain lift for early season skiing.*



:roll::roll::roll:


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## SpinmasterK (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> They are still preparing to spring into action. LOL.
> 
> Interestingly, I have actually talked to Tom Horrocks about this, IN PERSON, at least 2 years ago.
> 
> ...



Never give up Kevin!
You bet it is something that we have looked at for the past couple of years. Yes, that would make a big difference in our opening if we had another lift that went to the peak. We all agree on that. But, we also have a long list of MAJOR things the consultant recommended that you didn't mention, including trail and lodge improvements. While it won't happen for this year, or maybe even next, we'll continue to look at it and pull the trigger when the time is right.


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## tylerjames (Sep 1, 2009)

why isn't mount snow doing the same? they have more snow guns and still they don't try and be the first to open and last to close


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> You bet it is something that we have looked at for the past couple of years. Yes, that would make a big difference in our opening if we had another lift that went to the peak. We all agree on that.



For the record.


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2009)

tylerjames said:


> why isn't mount snow doing the same? they have more snow guns and still they don't try and be the first to open and last to close



They cpuld open earlier if they just went for a run on The Northface with up/down loading via The Grand Summit Express.  However, their plan, which I like for opening now is to basically turn on the majority of their fan guns and open with a top to bottom run on the main face (usually Upper Canyon to Standard) and ATLEAST 1 top to bottom park (if not 2) at carinthia.  Bottomline, is after opening day in this modern era, what keeps folks coming back to buy tickets until the majority of the Northeast opens up is/are parks and by focusing their efforts on them, Mount Snow sells a bunch of early season daytickets, which then leads to more in season and late season tickets.


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Are you being sarcastic?  Some seasons in the past they have opened Oct. 1st.



Not when either of you 2 have been alive though


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

Johnskiismore said:


> Good news, I like it!  I hope this is the path Powdr will follow in terms of early season snowmaking.  Just made reservations at the Happy Bear Motel in February, my girlfriend has been wanting to go to K for years and this is the year.  Now I just need cheaper tickets!  ;-)



You know there's a $50 ticket deal, right?


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Not when either of you 2 have been alive though



I've personally skied there in early October.


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> I've personally skied there in early October.



But not on 10/1 I'm guessing.  And I'm old enough to remember that K brochure in the years following that that had a pic of Upper Cascade all snow covered with the caption of "October 1st, looks like real snow because it is real snow"


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

drjeff said:


> They cpuld open earlier if they just went for a run on The Northface with up/down loading via The Grand Summit Express.  However, their plan, which I like for opening now is to basically turn on the majority of their fan guns and open with a top to bottom run on the main face (usually Upper Canyon to Standard) and ATLEAST 1 top to bottom park (if not 2) at carinthia.  Bottomline, is after opening day in this modern era, what keeps folks coming back to buy tickets until the majority of the Northeast opens up is/are parks and by focusing their efforts on them, Mount Snow sells a bunch of early season daytickets, which then leads to more in season and late season tickets.



I agree that the Mount Snow opening sounds very appealing, and the Killington openings of the last few years have been excellent as well.  Problem is, *they are in mid-November on average.*  Anyone who takes themselves remotely seriously as a skier is out skiing then, and they draw big crowds.  

If you want to be the dominant resort in the east, like Killington used to be, *you need to open before everyone else, so you're the only game in town, and everyone knows it.*  Even if it's just one or two trails. You get the diehards showing up from all over the east, buying day tickets, and you get loyalty from your passholders.  Same thing applies to spring skiing.


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## Highway Star (Sep 1, 2009)

drjeff said:


> But not on 10/1 I'm guessing.  And I'm old enough to remember that K brochure in the years following that that had a pic of Upper Cascade all snow covered with the caption of "October 1st, looks like real snow because it is real snow"



They opened early october many (most?) times in the 80's and 90's.


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## RootDKJ (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> For the record.







​ 
*VICTORY!!*​


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## Johnskiismore (Sep 1, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> You know there's a $50 ticket deal, right?



No I don't, please feed me some info!  Thank you


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## Tyrolean_skier (Sep 1, 2009)

Johnskiismore said:


> No I don't, please feed me some info!  Thank you



Go to this link:

http://www.killington.com/summer/plan/Deal Grabber/index.html


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## ski_resort_observer (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> They opened early october many (most?) times in the 80's and 90's.



Yea but this ain't the 80's or 90's. Let it go. Costs based on business levels is the manta now.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Yea but this ain't the 80's or 90's. Let it go. Costs based on business levels is the manta now.



agreed

Sugarbush has the best set up in the east for opening early or late on Mount Ellen.  If the return was worth opening in October or closing in June, I'm sure win would go for it.

ski areas first and foremost are businesses.  all about the Benjamin.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> I agree that the Mount Snow opening sounds very appealing, and the Killington openings of the last few years have been excellent as well.  Problem is, *they are in mid-November on average.*  Anyone who takes themselves remotely seriously as a skier is out skiing then, and they draw big crowds.
> 
> If you want to be the dominant resort in the east, like Killington used to be, *you need to open before everyone else, so you're the only game in town, and everyone knows it.*  Even if it's just one or two trails. You get the diehards showing up from all over the east, buying day tickets, and you get loyalty from your passholders.  Same thing applies to spring skiing.



I guess I take myself remotely as a serious skier and have no desire to ski the WROD at Killington just because it opens a week or two ahead of my home mountain.


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## Vortex (Sep 2, 2009)

Hey highway star is on to something here.  Early and Late season are the key to many pass holders. That is why they buy them.  Some die hards come early and late if their mountain is either yet to open, or closed already.  I can understand why it may not be worth it to all.

 It is also worth it to some.


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2009)

Bob R said:


> Hey highway star is on to something here.  Early and Late season are the key to many pass holders. That is why they buy them.  Some die hards come early and late if their mountain is either yet to open, or closed already.  I can understand why it may not be worth it to all.
> 
> It is also worth it to some.



I think that early and late are the key to SOME passholders, and likely not enought to really justify it economically.  I'd bet that the majority of passholders are the 2 weekend a month from Thanskgiving to mid/late March types.  Your diehards who will hit the hill early and late (and mid week for that matter) two is a much smaller base of customers, and that base of customers also tends to use less of the ancillary facilities (rentals, lessons, mountain owned ski shop, food and beverage, etc) than, the less frequent pass holder.

Hands down I will bet that one of the key factors that has led to the ski area management aware of the day to day costs verses the former model of a more big picture entire season cost is how we commonly track data today via the computer and a multitude of spread sheets for cost analysis.  Makes it much easier for a GM to look and see that say pre November 20th (pick any weekend date prior to Thanksgiving you want) that your day to day collections will be less (and often significantly less) than your day to day expenses to bring in extra staff to run the area.  Same thing say post April 1st (once again pick whatever date you want around then).  Pre- easily available accounting software, even 20 years ago, GM's didn't/couldn't as easily get that day to day feed back(sure they had a rough number in their head, but rough vs. exact can often be very sobering data).


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

I wonder what the difference is today to produce an acre of snow versus 15 years ago.  Energy costs have certainly gone up, but technology is much more efficient as well.


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## Vortex (Sep 2, 2009)

We are the people in the bars and rests. You are right we don't rent equiptment,   I agree it may not be a money maker. It is a marketing cost.  I see the value in it.

What is the deciding factor?  

Do you want the option for more days, Some may chose that,.  some may chose price only, some may chose location.  I think length of season is very important to many.   I think that is why Boyne is off to a good start.  The battle of public opinion in in their favor.  K is making headway moving towards the past.


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## millerm277 (Sep 2, 2009)

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering why they went with Techno Alpin over SMI, as I only know of them at a handful of areas in the east, as compared to the large numbers of areas with SMI products.


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Out of curiosity, I'm wondering why they went with Techno Alpin over SMI, as I only know of them at a handful of areas in the east, as compared to the large numbers of areas with SMI products.




Not sure if it has any thing to do with it, but Techno Alpin's US headquarters is out in the Salt Lake City area, not too far from Powdr's "flagship", Park City Mountain Resort.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

Bob R said:


> We are the people in the bars and rests. You are right we don't rent equiptment,   I agree it may not be a money maker. It is a marketing cost.  I see the value in it.
> 
> What is the deciding factor?
> 
> Do you want the option for more days, Some may chose that,.  some may chose price only, some may chose location.  I think length of season is very important to many.   I think that is why Boyne is off to a good start.  The battle of public opinion in in their favor.  K is making headway moving towards the past.



Makes sense

I guess I just have a hard time playing arm chair quarter back without looking at the weekly P&L.   I was privy to looking at that for Snowshoe and Wisp.  It wasn't a pretty thing to look at except for about 16 weeks a year and Snowshoe has a BOOMING summertime business in comparison to anything I've seen in New England.   Every week outside of those 16 the objective of the meeting was cost savings.  As the GM at Wisp would say, if we do everything right we get to keep 10 cents out of every dollar we bring in, however when we save a dollar, we get to keep the whole dollar.

It's a balance and one that I am happy that I don't have to be a part of figuring out any more. Couldn't pay me to be a manager at a ski area again.


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2009)

Bob R said:


> We are the people in the bars and rests. You are right we don't rent equiptment,   I agree it may not be a money maker. It is a marketing cost.  I see the value in it.
> 
> What is the deciding factor?
> 
> Do you want the option for more days, Some may chose that,.  some may chose price only, some may chose location.  I think length of season is very important to many.   I think that is why Boyne is off to a good start.  The battle of public opinion in in their favor.  K is making headway moving towards the past.



This business side of stuff is the part which REALLY tears at me, especially since I became an owner of my business a few years ago. 

On one side of things, the ski addict in me that grew up enjoying the early/late season skiing of the 80's/early 90's really wants the "old way" of things.  On the other side of me, the side that signs the checks for operational expenses to run a business is very aware that to stay in business and have the business grow that you need to turn a profit and that there is a fine line between a "good operational loss for marketing" vs. just an operational loss.  

With respect to K, even though they haven't had an early/mid October opening in years, their past accomplishments on this front, combined with a modern day opening that is one of, if not the first in the East still accomplishes their current desired goal, same thing late season wise.  While it might not be June anymore,  they seem to have the desire to be one of, if not the last to close, once again which more cost effectively accomplishes their goal again.

Once again, I'm not saying that I necessarily like their strategy as a hardcore, long season, live in the past skier, but the businessman side of me fully understands why they're making the descisions they are.


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## mondeo (Sep 2, 2009)

drjeff said:


> This business side of stuff is the part which REALLY tears at me, especially since I became an owner of my business a few years ago.
> 
> On one side of things, the ski addict in me that grew up enjoying the early/late season skiing of the 80's/early 90's really wants the "old way" of things. On the other side of me, the side that signs the checks for operational expenses to run a business is very aware that to stay in business and have the business grow that you need to turn a profit and that there is a fine line between a "good operational loss for marketing" vs. just an operational loss.
> 
> ...


+1. They had the longest season in the East last year, though that's partly due to Boyne splitting the early open/late close duties between SR and Sugarloaf. All they really need to do to attract the skiers looking for a long season is open a week or two before the next guy and close a week or two after the next. That's where the marketing bang for buck is, and why closing May 2nd last year probably made sense given the payroll schedule they had (hopefully it's been changed, if not that doesn't make sense.) They're able to claim a May closing. That's the big thing.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

mondeo said:


> why closing May 2nd last year probably made sense given the payroll schedule they had (hopefully it's been changed, if not that doesn't make sense.)



having payroll end on a weekend day in the ski business makes absolutely no sense, especially a Saturday.  It's your busiest day of the week.  A department manager should be 100% focused on guest service that day, not limiting overtime.


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## ta&idaho (Sep 2, 2009)

This is stupid.  Extend the season by staying open (with more terrain) longer, not by blasting snow in the early Fall.  Nobody needs two full months of WROD, and blasting snow before the weather realistically supports sustained operations is unbelievably wasteful (FYI: the average high in Rutland in October is 60 degrees.  60 degrees!  The average low is only 36.  http://www.weather.com/outlook/trav...y/graph/USVT0205?from=36hr_bottomnav_business).  I'm glad this absurd practice (if it was ever anything more than bitter, revisionist nostalgia) died with the other excesses of the 80s.  If there's an unexpected early season natural dump, earn yourself some turns.  Otherwise, calm down and enjoy Winter when it actually arrives.


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## Vortex (Sep 2, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> This is stupid.  Extend the season by staying open (with more terrain) longer, not by blasting snow in the early Fall.  Nobody needs two full months of WROD, and blasting snow before the weather realistically supports sustained operations is unbelievably wasteful (FYI: the average high in Rutland in October is 60 degrees.  60 degrees!  The average low is only 36.  http://www.weather.com/outlook/trav...y/graph/USVT0205?from=36hr_bottomnav_business).  I'm glad this absurd practice (if it was ever anything more than bitter, revisionist nostalgia) died with the other excesses of the 80s.  If there's an unexpected early season natural dump, earn yourself some turns.  Otherwise, calm down and enjoy Winter when it actually arrives.




I don't agree.    I am that nobody that does need the extra time on the hill.  I hang out with quite a few of the nobody types.

  It is a supply and demand, proift and loss.  DR jeff.  Good points, you cover the issues well.

  K chose not to open early and close late for a few years and it would seem that has had an effect.  SR/ Boyne had been more agressive and it seems to also had an impact.  The day of early Oct  open and June closings seem to be gone for ever, but pressure has put late Oct and Early May into play.


I do get your point,and some agree.  Spend the money when consitant cold winter weather arrives.


As far as marketing being the only Eastern ski group to say Oct to May skiing in the last two years sounds good on a brocure or at a ski show.  

I would not at all be surpirsed to see K have the same thing to say this season.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

uh -oh 

ta&idaho is gonna get it

:lol:


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## SpinmasterK (Sep 2, 2009)

New snowguns arrived this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IfqYJxSURA&feature=player_profilepage


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> New snowguns arrived this morning:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IfqYJxSURA&feature=player_profilepage



Nice snowmaking equipment stoke vid Tom!!  

Quick question for you about the install??  Are you guys going to assemble in the parking lot and bring it up the hill and "plant it" via loader/excavator??  Or are you guys going to drive a cement truck upto the site and pour the foundation and assemble there??


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## ta&idaho (Sep 2, 2009)

Just to clarify, I don't think Killington's installation of new snowmaking equipment is stupid.  I think one particular poster's quixotic attempt to shame Killington into aiming for an early October opening date is stupid.


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

That thing is pretty trick..........where they are putting is it is a high traffic area, they'll probably use it to resurface on very regular basis.


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> This is stupid.  Extend the season by staying open (with more terrain) longer, not by blasting snow in the early Fall.  Nobody needs two full months of WROD, and blasting snow before the weather realistically supports sustained operations is unbelievably wasteful (FYI: the average high in Rutland in October is 60 degrees.  60 degrees!  The average low is only 36.  http://www.weather.com/outlook/trav...y/graph/USVT0205?from=36hr_bottomnav_business).  I'm glad this absurd practice (if it was ever anything more than bitter, revisionist nostalgia) died with the other excesses of the 80s.  If there's an unexpected early season natural dump, earn yourself some turns.  Otherwise, calm down and enjoy Winter when it actually arrives.



You = Fail.


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## KingM (Sep 2, 2009)

It doesn't make sense if you boil it down to the equation of ( lift ticket $ > $ spent blowing snow), but it makes a lot more sense in terms of K trying to cement its status as the big boy of Northeast skiing. You know, the one who takes the business seriously and gives the season pass holders extra value, who will spare no expense to keep things going during the mid-season r*** and with the ability to recover faster than anyone else.

So the fact that the average high for Rutland is 60 in October is just a plus. It shows that the resort is willing to give Mother Nature the middle finger, which is great PR.


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## ta&idaho (Sep 2, 2009)

Excessive snowmaking has real costs, both economic and environmental.  Snowmaking when conditions are not in the ideal range (a factor of both temperature and humidity) is highly inefficient.  As this report notes, during an Aspen study, "snow was made at Aspen Mountain in November on eight occasions at ambient temperatures greater than 32°F and on seven occasions at ambient temperatures below 32°F.  The eight events when ambient temperatures were greater than 32°F accounted for only 17 percent of the total amount of manmade snow produced in that month, and the other seven events accounted for the remaining 83 percent."  Technology has made snowmaking more efficient, but prudent operation also plays a role.  I love skiing, even on early-season WROD, but I also feel some sense of responsibility to reduce our sport's impact on the environment.


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## millerm277 (Sep 2, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Not sure if it has any thing to do with it, but Techno Alpin's US headquarters is out in the Salt Lake City area, not too far from Powdr's "flagship", Park City Mountain Resort.



Makes sense then, especially now that I see PCMR is listed on Techno Alpin's references list. I just found it odd, since they were testing SMI guns all last year.


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## SpinmasterK (Sep 2, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Nice snowmaking equipment stoke vid Tom!!
> 
> Quick question for you about the install??  Are you guys going to assemble in the parking lot and bring it up the hill and "plant it" via loader/excavator??  Or are you guys going to drive a cement truck upto the site and pour the foundation and assemble there??



Both towers require a concrete foundation. So once the foundation is set, the equipment will be brought up and assembled on site. I will be ther to capture photos and video to share.


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Both towers require a concrete foundation. So once the foundation is set, the equipment will be brought up and assembled on site. I will be ther to capture photos and video to share.



Thanks for the info Tom.  The only reason I asked is from having watched them install a bunch of tower mounted fan guns at Mount Snow the past 2 summers, midway through the installs the 1st year they changed their strategy from pouring the bases at the final location of the fan gun to pouring them down in the base area and then lifting them up the hill with a loader/excavator which proved easier than having to basically drag the cement truck up the hill to many of the install sites.

They'd pre dig the install site on the hill.  Then pour the foundation inside a form that was pretty darn close to the size of a 55 gallon drum and install the "base" that the tower bolts onto in the base area.  When dry, they'd mount the tower + fan gun to the base (still down in the base area) and then once assembled, haul the entire assembly via an exacvator up to the on hill installation site, "drop" it in place, back fill and done!


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## tjf67 (Sep 2, 2009)

Bob R said:


> Hey highway star is on to something here.  Early and Late season are the key to many pass holders. That is why they buy them.  Some die hards come early and late if their mountain is either yet to open, or closed already.  I can understand why it may not be worth it to all.
> 
> It is also worth it to some.




I have gone to K in the past cause my hill was not open yet.  I have also gone at the end of the year when mine shut down.


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## mondeo (Sep 2, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Makes sense then, especially now that I see PCMR is listed on Techno Alpin's references list. I just found it odd, since they were testing SMI guns all last year.


If I remember correctly, they were testing HKDs last year as well, or at least had new HKDs that they should therefore have information for. I knew they had two brands going, I guess the other was SMI. If they had the HKD vs. SMI battle last year, it makes sense to go HKD vs. another competitor this year if HKD won the last round.


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## tjf67 (Sep 2, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> This is stupid.  Extend the season by staying open (with more terrain) longer, not by blasting snow in the early Fall.  Nobody needs two full months of WROD, and blasting snow before the weather realistically supports sustained operations is unbelievably wasteful (FYI: the average high in Rutland in October is 60 degrees.  60 degrees!  The average low is only 36.  http://www.weather.com/outlook/trav...y/graph/USVT0205?from=36hr_bottomnav_business).  I'm glad this absurd practice (if it was ever anything more than bitter, revisionist nostalgia) died with the other excesses of the 80s.  If there's an unexpected early season natural dump, earn yourself some turns.  Otherwise, calm down and enjoy Winter when it actually arrives.



Hey are you the guy that pushes people off of lifts for smoking?


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## mondeo (Sep 2, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> This is stupid. Extend the season by staying open (with more terrain) longer, not by blasting snow in the early Fall. Nobody needs two full months of WROD, and blasting snow before the weather realistically supports sustained operations is unbelievably wasteful (FYI: the average high in Rutland in October is 60 degrees. 60 degrees! The average low is only 36. http://www.weather.com/outlook/trav...y/graph/USVT0205?from=36hr_bottomnav_business). I'm glad this absurd practice (if it was ever anything more than bitter, revisionist nostalgia) died with the other excesses of the 80s. If there's an unexpected early season natural dump, earn yourself some turns. Otherwise, calm down and enjoy Winter when it actually arrives.


So the average low, for all of October, at 3K feet, is 29. Last half is a few degrees lower. And if you've got a good head start in October on your high altitude base, then while still manmade, you've gotten away from WROD by early to mid November because you can focus on expanding terrain rather than just getting enough stuff open. They had Superstar going the weekend before Thanksgiving last year.


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> For the record.



I love how you quote this as if it represents a major concession or breakthrough.  Having an upper mtn lift on the Canyon side of the hill is a no-brainer prerequisite for extending the season earlier.  It's no mistake that KOD has been much later since the K-1 went in.

Yay - you win the Internet!


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 2, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> agreed
> 
> Sugarbush has the best set up in the east for opening early or late on Mount Ellen.  If the return was worth opening in October or closing in June, I'm sure win would go for it.
> 
> ski areas first and foremost are businesses.  all about the Benjamin.



Not a great example - but for the major investment at the base of LP, Mt Ellen would be the early/late season mtn and would like be pushing a Nov 1 - May 15 operating schedule in most years.


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

Tin Woodsman said:


> *I love how you quote this as if it represents a major concession or breakthrough*.  Having an upper mtn lift on the Canyon side of the hill is a no-brainer prerequisite for extending the season earlier.  It's no mistake that KOD has been much later since the K-1 went in.
> 
> Yay - you win the Internet!



It certainly does.  It's been 2+ years of publicly ignoring the concept.  I want to know how many times they need do get rained out in early and mid November before it sinks in with Nyberg that they can't reliably open (and stay open in November) on the K-1.  

They lucked out the last two years with the weather (well, except for when they had to close the next two weekends after opening early last year....hummmmmm) (or the year before where they held off opening for a week and all the snow got rained on....ooops)

*In '06, they opened ON THANKSGIVING.*   They had lots of snow made in the North Ridge area 3 weeks before, which melted out extensively before they could make snow on the lower route.  They turned on the lower guns the Sunday before Thanksgiving and were able to get a few decent days of snowmaking.  *They made it by the absolute narrowest of margins*, it must have been super expensive, but the weather was excellent over that weekend and they had crowds.

But it was lucky the weather turned around for them.  It could have easily rained MORE in Nov. '06, and stopped them from opening at all for the Thanksgiving weekend.  With the current strategy, it WILL happen eventually.  Is that at all acceptable?


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 2, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> Excessive snowmaking has real costs, both economic and environmental.  Snowmaking when conditions are not in the ideal range (a factor of both temperature and humidity) is highly inefficient.  As this report notes, during an Aspen study, "snow was made at Aspen Mountain in November on eight occasions at ambient temperatures greater than 32°F and on seven occasions at ambient temperatures below 32°F.  The eight events when ambient temperatures were greater than 32°F accounted for only 17 percent of the total amount of manmade snow produced in that month, and the other seven events accounted for the remaining 83 percent."  Technology has made snowmaking more efficient, but prudent operation also plays a role.  I love skiing, even on early-season WROD, but I also feel some sense of responsibility to reduce our sport's impact on the environment.



Wait - so you're telling me that snowmaking is more efficient during colder weather?  You don't say!   Any more discoveries you can lay on us?  

Also, rather than the avg temp for Rutland in all of October, wouldn't it be slightly more relevant to find out what the average temperature is 3000' higher on the hill during the last two weeks of October?  No one is skiing in Rutland, and an early October opening is unlikely in all but the coldest of early seasons., so that's a much more useful barometer.  

Regardless, you are completely ignoring the marketing value of being able to crow about the longest season in the East year after year.  That's what drives enthusiasm for both season ticket sales as well as weekenders/daytrippers from Nov 15 through X-Mas.  If K has been open since October 20, and they have a rep for covering the hill with snow at every chance, I'm likely picking that place to spend my limited skiing dollars if I'm not committed to one mountain.


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> It certainly does.  It's been 2+ years of publicly ignoring the concept.  I want to know how many times they need do get rained out in early and mid Novemeber before it sinks in with Nyberg that they can't reliably open (and stay open in November) on the K-1.


Wait - so you actually believe that since they didn't install a new upper mtn lift in their first two years of owning the mtn then the statement up thread means they've finally seen the light?  

You've made some doozies in terms of self-aggrandizing claims here and elsewhere, but that may just take the cake.

I think POWDR doesn't know their ass from their elbow, but even I can admit that the years of deferred maintenance they inherited from ASC were priorities 1, 2, 3 and 4 in terms of capital when they took over.


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Wait - so you actually believe that since they didn't install a new upper mtn lift in their first two years of owning the mtn then the statement up thread means they've finally seen the light?
> 
> You've made some doozies in terms of self-aggrandizing claims here and elsewhere, but that may just take the cake.
> 
> I think POWDR doesn't know their ass from their elbow, but even I can admit that the years of deferred maintenance they inherited from ASC were priorities 1, 2, 3 and 4 in terms of capital when they took over.



Talking is the first step in actually building it.  Muche better than not talking about it.


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## ta&idaho (Sep 2, 2009)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Wait - so you're telling me that snowmaking is more efficient during colder weather?  You don't say!   Any more discoveries you can lay on us?



The point of that Aspen study isn't that colder temps mean better snowmaking, its that they discovered that they had essentially been wasting their efforts half the time.  I used it as an example of the value in being selective in deploying snowmaking resources.



Tin Woodsman said:


> Also, rather than the avg temp for Rutland in all of October, wouldn't it be slightly more relevant to find out what the average temperature is 3000' higher on the hill during the last two weeks of October?  No one is skiing in Rutland, and an early October opening is unlikely in all but the coldest of early seasons., so that's a much more useful barometer.



Yeah, I used Rutland data because that's what I could find.  The point is simply that its still pretty warm in early October, and there are warm and rainy streaks well past then.  Blowing snow with the goal of opening in early October presents an unreasonably high risk that it will end up being a wasted effort.  That's a shame in my book, even if some seasons it works out.



Tin Woodsman said:


> Regardless, you are completely ignoring the marketing value of being able to crow about the longest season in the East year after year.  That's what drives enthusiasm for both season ticket sales as well as weekenders/daytrippers from Nov 15 through X-Mas.  If K has been open since October 20, and they have a rep for covering the hill with snow at every chance, I'm likely picking that place to spend my limited skiing dollars if I'm not committed to one mountain.



I certainly understand the potential marketing value, but I hope that as a skiing community we think critically about the impact that various ski resort operational decisions have on the environment.  After all, we have a lot to lose.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

WWF-VT said:


> I guess I take myself remotely as a serious skier and have no desire to ski the WROD at Killington just because it opens a week or two ahead of my home mountain.



then you're not a serious skier..serious skiers drive from Pennsylvania for the ribbon..


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## Vortex (Sep 2, 2009)

Picking the ski industry to base your green view around is hard to do

. Many use wind credits and Low e guns and recycle.  Some use alternative fuels for the Grooming equipment.  Its till not a real strong statement.  Kind of like using a motor boat on a lake.

  When you start talking about the energy used to run compressors early season... I think that is going a bit far.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2009)

Bob R said:


> Picking the ski industry to base your green view around is hard to do
> 
> . Many use wind credits and Low e guns and recycle.  Some use alternative fuels for the Grooming equipment.  Its till not a real strong statement.  Kind of like using a motor boat on a lake.
> 
> When you start talking about the energy used to run compressors early season... I think that is going a bit far.



+ 1. 

It's not as bad as the "green" energy company next door to my office, in which there are almost ALWAYS more SUV's in the lot than hybrids or more fuel efficient sedans.  Today out of the 12 cars in their lot, 8 were full sized SUV's...not hybrids, but regular, SUV's.    These are employees too.  

The ski industry is doing their best.  Snowmaking is an absolute evil.  

And I must say, it takes a big set to come into a ski chat room, when people are really jonesin' for skiing and restless, and to say, "quit your whining about no early season skiing."    Maybe it is brave, but maybe it is not so smart.  I dunno...  :wink:


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## powhunter (Sep 2, 2009)

tin woodsman said:


> wait - so you're telling me that snowmaking is more efficient during colder weather?  You don't say!   Any more discoveries you can lay on us?



lmao!!!!!!!


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> + 1.
> 
> It's not as bad as the "green" energy company next door to my office, in which there are almost ALWAYS more SUV's in the lot than hybrids or more fuel efficient sedans.  Today out of the 12 cars in their lot, 8 were full sized SUV's...not hybrids, but regular, SUV's.    These are employees too.
> 
> ...



times two


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## ta&idaho (Sep 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> And I must say, it takes a big set to come into a ski chat room, when people are really jonesin' for skiing and restless, and to say, "quit your whining about no early season skiing."    Maybe it is brave, but maybe it is not so smart.  I dunno...  :wink:



Good point -- upon further reflection, maybe it was my own restless jonesin' that led me to pick such a silly fight in the first place.  :wink:  

And who am I kidding? The one time I've ever been able to ski in October I was absolutely giddy.  My apologies for the over-the-top, self-righteous moralizing.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 2, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> Good point -- upon further reflection, maybe it was my own restless jonesin' that led me to pick such a silly fight in the first place.  :wink:
> 
> And who am I kidding? The one time I've ever been able to ski in October I was absolutely giddy.  My apologies for the over-the-top, self-righteous moralizing.



I was being tongue and cheek.  I just was  because saying something like that would be like:







Things have been really bad this offseason.  I think it is the economy and the rainy NE weather that has made it worse.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I was being tongue and cheek.  I just was  because saying something like that would be like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



According to Newsweek the recession is over..book your hotel rooms now..the 6 mountains of Killington..7 if you count Pico are gonna be packed this season..especially with the $50 lift tickets...I laughed a little then Tax Idaho was talking about Rutland temperatures...Rutland is practically Subtropical compared to the rugged Alpine environment of Mount Killington..almost as hi as Mount Stowe..


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## Geoff (Sep 2, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Snowmaking is an absolute evil.



WTF!  This is a "banned for life" statement.

The Killington upper limit for their diesel permit is a million gallons.   To get their skier visits, they see at least 100,000 cars doing 500 mile round trips from Dirty Jersey and LonGisland.   Assume 20 mpg.   That's 2.5 million gallons of gasoline and that absolutely has to be on the low side. The diesel for snowmaking is lost in the noise of all the gasoline burned


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## snoseek (Sep 2, 2009)

I have no idea what the previous 7 pages contained but I just want to post to help this Killington thread reach ten pages like the rest of them. Carry on!


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## icedtea (Sep 2, 2009)

So what costumes are you all going to wear for Halloween on the mountain?


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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> For the record.



Spinmeister has already said numerous times they have been looking at Upper Mt lift options. You just keep saying they should put in a handle tow or a midstation on K1. I can almost guarantee you they aren't looking at either of those as viable.


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Spinmeister has already said numerous times they have been looking at Upper Mt lift options. You just keep saying they should put in a handle tow or a midstation on K1. I can almost guarantee you they aren't looking at either of those as viable.



For the record, I've suggested various upper mountain lifts.


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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> For the record, I've suggested various upper mountain lifts.



Would the forest service allow them to replace the Glades Triple with something going up higher?

That's one I have never thought of...     I think it's safe to say nothing can or will happen on the front so they would be looking at the sides...


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

:uzi:





snoseek said:


> I have no idea what the previous 7 pages contained but I just want to post to help this Killington thread reach ten pages like the rest of them. Carry on!



LAME Post..contribute somehing..:uzi:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> For the record, I've suggested various upper mountain lifts.



news to me..care to explain where you would like these upper mountain lifts??  Isn't the glades chair an upper mountain lift?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> news to me..care to explain where you would like these upper mountain lifts??  Isn't the glades chair an upper mountain lift?



Glades chair is poorly positioned to offer downloads from another lift.


For all the crap Highwaystar gets, including from myself, some of his ideas for Killington are right on the money.  Having a downloadable lift above 3K feet would be great for early season, perhaps late too if they moved away from superstar as the late season trail.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 2, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> then you're not a serious skier..serious skiers drive from Pennsylvania for the ribbon..



Real serious skiers head to Woodbury Ski area for the junior WROD


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

Poma or handle tow, to allow you to ski over from the North Ridge triple, then ride up and download on the K-1







Summit chair:






This map shows the glades triple extended to the summit with more trails, and a new lift on upper downdraft/lower catwalk.  Original idea was to offer year round skiing off lift D, using a refrig system, but it could also be done with an IDE snowmaking system (whatever).






And here's even more upper mountain lifts, including the middle-upper downdraft lift (my personal favorite), a catwalk lift, and a southridge lift.







So there you go.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 2, 2009)

WWF-VT said:


> Real serious skiers head to Woodbury Ski area for the junior WROD



LAME....uke:

anyway I think all northeast ski resorts should wait until the week before Christmas to open and close on St Patricks day..that when most people ski..anything more would be a waste of $$$$$$$...and there are also Palm Trees in Rutland..cause it's so warm..and also really fat women at the Price Chopper..


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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2009)

Outside of the handle tow and an extended Glades chair, I don't like any of those ideas. Cutting more liftlines in the middle of existing trail pods and adding to the already hornets nest that is Killington is the not the answer.

Two more:

Extending Canyon Chair higher - it would offer up more terrain than an extended North Ridge chair, being able to ski Cascade, Downdraft, DD, East Fall as well as the North Ridge terrain - but would the bottom of the chair be too low - probably?

How about if and when a lift on Snowdon is replaced with a High Speed lift - is it feasable to ski across to North Ridge and back?


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Spinmeister has already said numerous times they have been looking at Upper Mt lift options. You just keep saying they should put in a handle tow or a *midstation on K1.* I can almost guarantee you they aren't looking at either of those as viable.



People dismiss the mid-station concept way too quickly, I did too the first time someone suggested it.

There are numerous benefits to the concept.  First of all, new lifts are expensive.  You have to buy them then install them.  New fixed grip chairs are $1M++ depending on size and complexity of install.

Building a midstation is considerably less complex, but still a major project. Custom design. NOT like the skyeship mid with true terminals.  You're talking about the detach system from a lift terminal - no drive, no bullwheel, no tension system, etc.  Just something to pull the cabins off, run them slow, then put back them on.  Call it 25% of the mechanicals in a detach terminal.  Of course, how fancy does this need to be?  Should it detach on both sides?  Should it disengage and move out of the way so the cabins don't need to detach?  All that adds to the cost.  Then you have to re-size some towers to get the cable closer to the ground, and/or move lots of earth around, build a foundation and structure, etc.  So yes, it's a bit more complex than a single fan gun, but I think it would be less than an entirely new fixed grip lift.

Anyway, it saves the need to run an entirely new lift, cut more trees down, etc.  Definitely the cleanest way to offer early (and late?) season skiing - off one lift, just like the Killington Double.  Plus, in theory (if built to return cabins), they could run the lower part on windy days that shut the summit down, to access the lower canyon/flume.

Another, cheaper, option is have a temporary chondola conversion.  Set it up with some quad chairs, then run it at half speed, and use a conventional midstation.  But you are talking about a longer lift ride, and having to ride back up to the summit to download - not as effective.


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## mondeo (Sep 2, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Extending Canyon Chair higher - it would offer up more terrain than an extended North Ridge chair, being able to ski Cascade, Downdraft, DD, East Fall as well as the North Ridge terrain - but would the bottom of the chair be too low - probably?
> 
> How about if and when a lift on Snowdon is replaced with a High Speed lift - is it feasable to ski across to North Ridge and back?


Canyon chair base isn't much higher than the K-1 base, ~300ft. BUT, it gets rid of the exposure issue lower Bunny Buster has.

You'd have to hike a little to get to the top of Snowdon. But if they replace the quad and cut the triple back to the top of Conclusion/Highline, as long as the triple can support downloading, you could use that. Doing it through the replacement of Snowdon is my favored option, granted that they make it a decent traverse to get over to the Snowdon woods, Vagabond, and Great Bear (in an attempt to preserve snow quality.)


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## Highway Star (Sep 2, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Outside of the handle tow and an extended Glades chair, I don't like any of those ideas. Cutting more liftlines in the middle of existing trail pods and adding to the already hornets nest that is Killington is the not the answer.



Trust me, the upper-middle downdraft lift shown in the last map is one of the best options (besides a K-1 midstation). It offers good terrain, is good for early season snowmaking, and has potential for a bump skiing (on Downdraft) and quick recovery trail pod midseason. 



> Two more:
> 
> Extending Canyon Chair higher - it would offer up more terrain than an extended North Ridge chair, being able to ski Cascade, Downdraft, DD, East Fall as well as the North Ridge terrain - but would the bottom of the chair be too low - probably?



The canyon quad line, extended, goes west of the summit, puting you ~800 ft away from the K-1 top, meaning a traverse would have to be cut through dense evergreens.  Plus new trails at 4000+ ft.  Good luck.

Bottom of the CQ at 2,800ft is too low for early season.  There is a signifigant difference above 3,500 ft.  Plus we're talking about having to make snow on east fall, etc....again good luck.



> How about if and when a lift on Snowdon is replaced with a High Speed lift - is it feasable to ski across to North Ridge and back?



This is Geoff's wacky plan.  I personally hate it..  Look at the logistics.  You boot up at the K-1 base lodge, ski the traverse over to the snowdon quad, wait in line, ride up, traverse over to the Northridge, wait in line, ride up......and finally you can ski after 20-30 minutes.  *Now, what if you have to go in and warm up, eat, or use the facilites?*  You have to ski to the bottom of the NRT, ride a handle tow up killink (or ski down GN and ride up the snowdon poma), and skate over to the quad, then ride down the quad, then shlep yourself up hill to the K-1 lodge.....and you're there, after 30 minutes.  Good luck getting that to work for anybody, and having any repeat buisness.  It's just as bad and hokey as downloading on the canyon quad, and the truck.

The GREAT thing about using Killington Peak is that you already have the best lift for downloading (the K-1), and you have the Peak Lodge right there.  People can upload on the K-1, and spend many hours up there, taking breaks at the peak, then download at the end of the day.

*They should just get over themselves and put a temporary handle tow on upper downdraft early season...*


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## millerm277 (Sep 3, 2009)

Well, since this thread is already off topic, I might as well add to it. I've got an awesomely retarded plan as well!

Improve the evenness of Spillway a bit, use it to drive people in shuttle buses (not open trucks) to the base of the Canyon Quad. Problem solved. Only problem would be facilities. For an amazingly crazy idea....you could mulch heavenly traverse, and let people walk the ~680ft to the summit lodge, which isn't that bad. About the distance from the superstar side of KBL to the Snowdon Triple.

Add a midstation at 3500ft on the Canyon Quad somehow, and you can really open early, and stay open. Double Dipper holds snow pretty well, and you can even expand into the Glades area and run the triple. There you go. 4.5 full runs above 3500ft elevation. (Rime, East Glade, GN, Powerline, and Double Dipper.). I know nothing about how downloading lifts works, but...if you could download from the top (midstation is unload only), you could even have intermediates out there.

Yeah, this is all a random pipedream, but not a terrible one IMO.


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## drjeff (Sep 3, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Spinmeister has already said numerous times they have been looking at Upper Mt lift options. You just keep saying they should put in a handle tow or a midstation on K1. I can almost guarantee you they aren't looking at either of those as viable.



Plus, I'd bet like most business, powdr and K have 1,3,5 and 10 year business "goals/plans" and I'd bet that upper mountain lifts to potentially facilitate easier early/late season skiing + riding don't start appear on that business plan radar until atleast the 5, if not even the 10 year plan/wish list.  Too many other infastructure issues with a higher corporate value likely on that list, and that doesn't even factor in the uncertainty of the economy for atleast this coming season.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 3, 2009)

Yet another 10 page Killington thread......


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 3, 2009)

WWF-VT said:


> Yet another 10 page Killington thread......



Awesome!!!  I've skied Killington maybe 15 days total in my life but can't get enough of their threads..Stowe is the best place to ski in the east in my opinion and the only Stowe threads are about their stupid hotel..


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## mondeo (Sep 3, 2009)

WWF-VT said:


> Yet another 10 page Killington thread......


It's only a 5 page thread.


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## Highway Star (Sep 3, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Well, since this thread is already off topic, I might as well add to it. I've got an awesomely retarded plan as well!
> 
> Improve the evenness of Spillway a bit, use it to drive people in shuttle buses (not open trucks) to the base of the Canyon Quad. Problem solved. Only problem would be facilities. For an amazingly crazy idea....you could mulch heavenly traverse, and let people walk the ~680ft to the summit lodge, which isn't that bad. About the distance from the superstar side of KBL to the Snowdon Triple.
> 
> ...



Cool idea, but....have you ever been up spillway without snow on it?  It's a fairly rugged dirt road.  Good luck getting a shuttle bus up that, without paving the road first..........which isn't going to happen.  Maybe a 4x4 van?

Interesting idea about the midstation, but you're talking 300ft of vert only...humm...


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## Highway Star (Sep 3, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Plus, I'd bet like most business, powdr and K have 1,3,5 and 10 year business "goals/plans" and I'd bet that upper mountain lifts to potentially facilitate easier early/late season skiing + riding don't start appear on that business plan radar until atleast the 5, if not even the 10 year plan/wish list.  Too many other infastructure issues with a higher corporate value likely on that list, and that doesn't even factor in the uncertainty of the economy for atleast this coming season.



Considering the cost should be relatively low, they should move it up on their priority list.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 3, 2009)

mondeo said:


> It's only a 5 page thread.



the cool kids on here have it set up for 10 posts per page..


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## ta&idaho (Sep 3, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> the cool kids on here have it set up for 10 posts per page..



Wow.  I didn't realize I could change my settings.  I'm loving the "Winter" colors and 40 posts per page.  Thanks for the head's up.


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## drjeff (Sep 3, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> Wow.  I didn't realize I could change my settings.  I'm loving the "Winter" colors and 40 posts per page.  Thanks for the head's up.



Yup, that "summer" green trim makes we want to puke when I see it 

I'm thinking with the 1st frost advisories already come and gone across the North Country that Greg should be switching to winter blue mode for everyone real soon!    :flag:


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## 2knees (Sep 3, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Yup, that "summer" green trim makes we want to puke when I see it
> 
> I'm thinking with the 1st frost advisories already come and gone across the North Country that Greg should be switching to winter blue mode for everyone real soon!    :flag:



yes, and did you notice that in the summer it becomes the Northeast *Mountain Biking*, Hiking and lastly Skiing Forums.

Skiing rules, everything else just fills the time till we ski again.


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## drjeff (Sep 3, 2009)

2knees said:


> yes, and did you notice that in the summer it becomes the Northeast *Mountain Biking*, Hiking and lastly Skiing Forums.
> 
> Skiing rules, everything else just fills the time till we ski again.



I hadn't noticed the change of the sports listing when it goes puke green.  Thanks 2knees, I guess that underwear change did you good  :lol:


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## RootDKJ (Sep 3, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Yup, that "summer" green trim makes we want to puke when I see it
> 
> I'm thinking with the 1st frost advisories already come and gone across the North Country that Greg should be switching to winter blue mode for everyone real soon!    :flag:


I still think we should spray paint his lawn white to get rid of this ugly green.


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## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> *They should just get over themselves and put a temporary handle tow on upper downdraft early season...*



I agree, it certainly would be the most cost effective way of doing it. I just don't see the "new" Killington doing that. Smith's Killington may have done that.


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## mister moose (Sep 3, 2009)

A handle tow might be a little weak for the application (Advanced skiers and riders on a fairly steep tow line) but a used Poma platter lift could be had for cheap, and has the advantage of being able to run in high winds.


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## Highway Star (Sep 4, 2009)

mister moose said:


> A handle tow might be a little weak for the application (Advanced skiers and riders on a fairly steep tow line) but a used Poma platter lift could be had for cheap, and has the advantage of being able to run in high winds.


 
Yep...I'm not quite sure if the handle tow would work....it's a 400 ft long slope with about 100ft vertical.  But a poma certainly would work.  I just say handle tow because they are the cheap and they can be set up temporarily.

Wind wise, it's very rare that the CQ would run and the K-1 wouldn't......sooo....?


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## RENO (Sep 4, 2009)

Again, as I've said before, Rope Tows, Handle Tows, Poma Tows, etc... ALL SUCK! :???:  I can imagine trying to grab one of those in the early season on my snowboard with only 1 of those tows open with a shitload of people in line. Throw in many many more snowboarders and you can see what a mess it would be. If you're gonna do something you put in a regular lift. Even if it's just a double it would be 100 times better...


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## Highway Star (Sep 4, 2009)

RENO said:


> Again, as I've said before, Rope Tows, Handle Tows, Poma Tows, etc... ALL SUCK! :???: I can imagine trying to grab one of those in the early season on my snowboard with only 1 of those tows open with a shitload of people in line. Throw in many many more snowboarders and you can see what a mess it would be. If you're gonna do something you put in a regular lift. Even if it's just a double it would be 100 times better...


 
You do make a vaild point.....but what skier rider who is out in October can't ride a tow 400ft.....?

For a short lifts, I like lift D in the map below, the one at an angle that starts at the top of lower double dipper and goes to upper downdraft. It would be around 1000 ft and something like 400ft vert. Very good for very early season. They could set it up with an automated snowmaking system, make snow during recovery phases, and and let bumps form. It would be a sweet little mogul area during the season. And if you made 20ft of snow on it, it would last until July.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 4, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> You do make a vaild point.....but what skier rider who is out in October can't ride a tow 400ft.....?



I bet a lot of the skiers/riders that would make this economically viable


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 4, 2009)

The D lift at 400 vert and 1,000 feet in length would be sweet..that's a 40% slope..nice..I'm looking forward to it so Killington can extend their season a week..


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## SpinmasterK (Sep 4, 2009)

2knees said:


> yes, and did you notice that in the summer it becomes the Northeast *Mountain Biking*, Hiking and lastly Skiing Forums.
> 
> Skiing rules, everything else just fills the time till we ski again.



Weather permitting ... the Beast will roar in 51 days … when snowmaking begins!


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## mister moose (Sep 4, 2009)

I see hat tipping is allowed this year.  Any other changes in store for us?  Has there been a summary of summer projects yet?


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## Highway Star (Sep 4, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> The D lift at 400 vert and 1,000 feet in length would be sweet..that's a 40% slope..nice..*I'm looking forward to it so Killington can extend their season a week*..


 
Hah. That lift is roughly between 3,800ft and 4,200ft of vert. *They could reliably open the first or second week of October almost every year. If they made 15-20ft of snow up there, it would last until July.* Makes sense if you were going to run the K-1 anyway for mountain biking and sight seeing.

Then they just need an IDE summer snowmaker up there and some snow perservation techniques, and they could stay open year round. Hah.


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## Highway Star (Sep 4, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Weather permitting ... the Beast will roar in 51 days … when snowmaking begins!


 
Tom, will they make snow on Devil's Fiddle this year?


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## SpinmasterK (Sep 4, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Tom, will they make snow on Devil's Fiddle this year?



You submitted this as a question in the Ski Area Challenge, which has been addressed by Chris Nyberg.


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## Highway Star (Sep 4, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> You submitted this as a question in the Ski Area Challenge, which has been addressed by Chris Nyberg.


 
Sweet.  Now we just have to wait for Greg to post the responses.  

Greg.........?

Meh.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 4, 2009)

Greg check your e-mail...


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## deadheadskier (Sep 4, 2009)

Greg's on vacation, limited internet access.  That part I actually wasn't joking about in the other thread.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 4, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Greg's on vacation, limited internet access.  That part I actually wasn't joking about in the other thread.



I'm sure he can find a library or internet cafe..:roll:


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## tcharron (Sep 7, 2009)

tylerjames said:


> why isn't mount snow doing the same? they have more snow guns and still they don't try and be the first to open and last to close



It'd be really hard, unless the weather was perfect, for them to pull it off.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 7, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I'm sure he can find a library or internet cafe..:roll:



probably not very easy to find where he is and I know when I'm on vacay, well, if I can remember what it's like that is, I don't touch the intertrons.


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