# On slope collisions



## uphillklimber (Mar 8, 2010)

x


----------



## dmc (Mar 8, 2010)

Pretty sure the uphill skier has to yield to the downhill skier.. If they are stopped and entering a trail they have to yield..

At the speed you were traveling - maybe you could just slow down a bit and not pass..  Thats what I do...  I've never been hit of a traverse..


----------



## drjeff (Mar 8, 2010)

Over the years, especially when passing snowboarders where they tend to have more of a "blindside" than 2 plankers do,  I really, really try if I'm going to be passing them to do so on their front side, especially if it's a situation where there's not likely to be a large amount of trail width between them, me, and the woods.

The other thing that I'm more wary of when passing anyone these day (skier or boarder) is that with the prevelence of folks listening to music while on the hill,  often the old standard "on your left/right" shout can go unheard, so more and more rather than go for the pass in what could be a tight spot, I'll slow down until I get to a spot/situation where I'm sure the person can see/hear me.

While the general "rules of the road" are unchanged, there's many more variables that come into play nowadays than in the past IMHO


----------



## WWF-VT (Mar 8, 2010)

You answered your own question.

"Of course, everyone always remembers the first rule of skiing, the person downhill has the right of way"


----------



## Brownsville Brooklyn (Mar 8, 2010)

lots of collisions this weekend....

my friend got taken out by a kid, not a very good skier, on the back of her skis. she was on skiers right hugging the tree line. she ejected & flipped 3x. sore back, neck & leg. she was at work at 6am today.


----------



## Warp Daddy (Mar 8, 2010)

First i'm sorry you got whacked -- it sux , but most of us have been there 
Second  with audio helmets and low skill sliders of all varieties out there  ESPECIALLY ON BLUBIRD days


----------



## Warp Daddy (Mar 8, 2010)

OOPS hit the key to soon -- What i was also going to say is i make sure they either see me OR by really raising the level of my voice  hear me . But frankly on narrow twisty stuff i'll slow up IF NECESSARY to let a what seems to be less skilled indiiiividual get thru  or if the trail is wider  just pick my spot and blow by them . BUT with the audio helmets and lack of attention by many this situation is becoming more common and is one of the reasons i really  like and ski most of the time IN LOW DENSITY regional ski areas


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Mar 8, 2010)

I see this from time to time.  It seems to be very frequent on the flat corssovers at Killington.  I never understood why people find the need to make huge wide turns on a crossover.  Being a boarder your all but screwed at K if you can't keep your speed up.  I almost feel like there being d!cks, obviously I doubt they are, but a good shout "Right", "Left" usually works, and I also throw in a thanks as well.


----------



## dmc (Mar 8, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> a good shout "Right", "Left" usually works, and I also throw in a thanks as well.



I'm dyslexic... And I ski with someone who's deaf...

I'll probably turn into you and she'll just not hear you...


----------



## campgottagopee (Mar 8, 2010)

Whenever I go to pass I make sure I zig when they zag-----if that's not possible i just slow down until it is.


----------



## hammer (Mar 8, 2010)

campgottagopee said:


> Whenever I go to pass I make sure I zig when they zag-----if that's not possible i just slow down until it is.


This is what I try to do...not easy if the downhill skier/rider is unpredictable, though.


----------



## jr05 (Mar 8, 2010)

I always just slow down enough to basically match their speed, then when they turn one direction (snowboarders I pass so they are facing me) I just pass on the other.  I am not in such a rush that I can't slow down.  Also, if they are new enough that they are making full trail width turns, they probably aren't (shouldn't be) on the harder trails.  And if they are on the beginner, you shouldn't be screaming down those anyway with all the novices on them.

Anyway, hope you aren't too banged up for the rest of the season!  Keep an eye out for the snowboarders since they tend to like to sit down randomly all over the trail as well.  I snowboard and this is one of the things that pisses me off about fellow snowboarders.  Get out of the damn trail if you are going to sit down!  I'm getting off topic, be careful out there and watch out for skiers in front of you, the can't see backwards as well as you can see forwards so give them plenty of room / slow down.


----------



## oakapple (Mar 8, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> I am never sure which one to shout. Will they take it to mean I coming on your right, scootch to the right so as to avoid an impending collision? Think about it, if someone hollers behind you "RIGHT!!" or all you hear is right, what would you do in the panic of the moment? If you are a grab the bull by the horns type, will you move right? If you are a more passive type, will you shy away from the right and let them have the right? Then what would you expect the person in front of you to do?



It seems to be accepted protocal that "Right" means "I am passing on your right," not "Please move to the right." Except on beginner hills (where you shouldn't be going fast anyway), I think skiers can be expected to know this. Most people say "On your right," unless it is so sudden that they can't get out the first two words.

When passing, I try to give the widest berth I can, so that even if the skier makes an unexpected turn we would not be likely to collide. If the trail is so narrow at that point that this is not possible, then frankly the passing skier ought to be going more slowly. When someone passes me that close, it is often an excuse for not bothering to slow down.

Yesterday, I came within a few feet of colliding with a boarder who was sitting on the hill. Totally my fault, as I caught an edge, but managed to recover in time.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2010)

training for SuperG in high school, I had a horrific collision with another teammate. Essentially it was 'open training' without gates.  We were training GS lower down the mountain and were supposed to be working on SuperG turns / speed up top.  He was coming to the left, me to the right and smacked right into one another.  From witnesses that saw it, he was more at fault as I was slightly downhill.  

Season over.  Fractured C7, separated shoulder, pinched nerves, concussion. 

Since that day, I only pass if I've got a WIDE berth.  More often, I just stop and wait for the trail to clear until I have enough room to ski at the speed and turn radius I desire.

Glad you weren't hurt.  I know the unpredictable downhill skiers and the edge to edgers that can be quite frustrating.  Always a risk to pass.  I wouldn't assume fault on yourself or blame on the kid, just be glad neither of you was severely hurt and use it as a lesson to avoid a similar situation in the future.  I recognize sometimes collisions are unavoidable.


----------



## dbking (Mar 8, 2010)

The Skier's Res. Code doesn't say anything about coming close. I find that if I am going faster than everyone else, then they can't hit me. And if I'm going pretty fast I have the control not to hit them. Sorta like a motorcycle's speed can get it out of trouble ( although that usually isn't the case ). More speed means you can ski away from dangers. But I usually try to click my poles loud enough to get people's attention.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2010)

dbking said:


> I find that if I am going faster than everyone else, then they can't hit me. .



depends on the angle.  angle matters just as much as speed


----------



## vonski (Mar 8, 2010)

I always try to set them up so that they are  turning away when I go by.  But I really do like the trees better! They don't move. Trails are just dangerous compared to the woods in my opinion on busy days.  The best is when the young kid comes flying out of the woods at you.  I had this happen at Jay one time.  All I could do was lower my shoulder and blast the kid which I did.  He took the brunt of it!  

Also off the topic but on the Topic.  There needs to be some talk about looking up hill before starting.  I am finding this more and more annoying lately.  And not just from kids, and nothing worse than a family and the parents not identifying this.  I have screamed to look up hill more times than I can remember this year.  Again, one of my reasons for trying to be in the trees during peak hours.


----------



## jaywbigred (Mar 8, 2010)

I always click the hell out of my polls, that works most of the time.

The other thing to do is to just slow down a TOUCH, and try to see the timing of their turns. Then, make the pass RIGHT after they turn. This type of skier/boarder is usually not capable of making 2 turns in rapid succession, so if you time your pass to be RIGHT after their last turn, you should be safe. It is dangerous to try to pass on either side of their cross-trail traverse because you have no idea (and they probably don't either) when they are going to throw the next turn in there.


----------



## neil (Mar 8, 2010)

I tend to keep my gaze far down the hill and get an eye for possible problem people. I'll slow down, keeping fairly close to them, but directly behind them, then when they turn I'm immediately going the other direction, picking up speed, and getting past them. If it's a tighter trail then I'm yelling "ON YOUR...".

This seems to work for me.

vonski: I agree with you. Recently, I had a pack, like 5/6 people who were stopped at edge of a trail just ALL start downhill and NONE of them looked. Myself and 2 others had to slam on the brakes.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 8, 2010)

I've had several of the exact same instances you describe (people making an unpredictable change in direction while I'm passing).  I've never had an actual collision but I've come very close.  Here's thing....in that scenario it was absolutely my fault.  And in the 2 that you describe.... absolutely your fault.  If I was the snowboarder's dad I would have been all over YOU.  Then later I would have talked to my kid about being more cautious about sudden changes in direction.


----------



## billski (Mar 8, 2010)

vonski said:


> Ione of my reasons for trying to be in the trees during peak hours.



I like trees.  They don't move unpredictably. :roll:

While I agree with the general theme of awareness , consideration of others and education,  I also wonder if perhaps speed differential is also a factor.  

Many studies have shown that highway traffic is much safer when all vehicles operate at the same speed.  The worst accidents occur when there is a high speed differential between the two objects.  I suspect the same thing happens with skiing/boarding.

Here are my suggestions

First the resorts:
I really, really hate it when they have black (and sometimes) trails emptying into greens.  This puts the wrong skiers on the wrong slopes. Some resorts fixed the most egregious configurations years ago, but many remain. I like the MRG layout as one good example.  I skied all day on greens with my little one, and never once did we have anyone blow by us mach schnell.  I'd like to see more thought go into how traffic is channeled.  

A second suggestion might be to create some sort of "rest area" where slow skiers can stop and start safely.  You certainly could do this on some of the widely boulevard trails, simply with netting.  Of course this is easier said than done.

Second the skiers/boarders:
Don't go where you don't belong.  The logic needs to be applied in BOTH directions.  I mean diamond skiers going on circle trails.  Either stay out or slow down to the pace of everyone else.

There are still many shades of gray here, and I've avoided blue transitions all together.


----------



## puckoach (Mar 8, 2010)

You answered your own question.

"Of course, everyone always remembers the first rule of skiing, the person downhill has the right of way" 


People can try and talk themselves into anything.  But, that means the uphill has No Rights.   

No yelling, clicking, or I thought...., is an acceptable answer.

The uphill person has a 100% responsability.


----------



## andyaxa (Mar 8, 2010)

We had a similar situation with our 7 year old. Thread here... http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=73121 Uphill skier should have been in control and slower in the zone and my kid should have checked before cutting across. We have drilled into them about looking uphill before starting back onto the trail or entering from their little side trails or merging, but this was a good lesson on being a courteous skier. When we hit the same area again on Saturday with a lot more people she did a great job.

MY problem is, I'm starting to explore some more blue trails with more pitch. Ideally I'll tackle something new midweek, but we can't always be so fortunate. What happens to me is I'll be working in a tight-ish turning radius but may come across steeper pitch or bumped out area that I want to skirt. It's still a little hard looking over my shoulder while carrying speed, so unless I know I am alone on the run I'll put on the breaks, not a full hockey stop, but a pretty good slide, glance uphill and then continue to my more comfortable line. What really freaked me out with the new Spring conditions is the new sound of my tails throwing snow (not quite the carver yet :sad I keep thinking it's another skiier about to plow into me.


----------



## bigbog (Mar 8, 2010)

..As said, if I'm going to be on a boarder's blind side when we would possibly be closing in on each other I'm going to check behind and pull over to let him dissappear.  It always works....or glance back and if clear..I replace him on the left side...works nicely too.  On these groomers, especially on the wkends, you often really do have to go with the ski that'll offer _the best way out_..imho.


----------



## 57stevey (Mar 8, 2010)

Cannonball said:


> I've had several of the exact same instances you describe (people making an unpredictable change in direction while I'm passing).  I've never had an actual collision but I've come very close.  Here's thing....in that scenario it was absolutely my fault.  And in the 2 that you describe.... absolutely your fault.  If I was the snowboarder's dad I would have been all over YOU.  Then later I would have talked to my kid about being more cautious about sudden changes in direction.



This.

Except that when it has occurred, and it has, I have only spoken to my kid about not starting out into traffic. Sudden changes of direction should be expected when sharing trails with skiers/riders of mixed abilities. She's also been taught to be aware of this when she is the overtaking skier and I have seen her several times come to a complete stop to allow traffic to clear when she was not 100% sure she could get through safely. If a teenager can internalize this, then we can too.


----------



## RootDKJ (Mar 8, 2010)

I spend a lot of time moving through crowded trails at high speeds.  Not by choice mind you.  There's a limit to my speed vs the density of people on the trails as well, but that being said, I'm pretty sure I'm moving at speeds that make the other people uncomfortable if "I come too close" to them.  

I haven't hit anyone, but I've had a few close calls, including one where I'm not really sure how I didn't hit their board after he decided the middle of a trail right after a sharp turn was a good place to sit down. :roll:

That being said, I spend more time looking at the path ahead of me then I do the snow ahead of me.  I look for people who might appear to cross my line and make sure I'm heading in direction their tails are pointing at.  I figure I can turn more sharply then anyone I need to be worried about colliding with me.  I've also learned that people like to sit down unexpectedly, mostly not in a good location.  That sucks worse then trying to avoid someone making an abrupt turn.


----------



## jrmagic (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree that the first rule of the code prevails 100% ofthe time. That said, if I am downhill I always consider people uphill if I ahve stopped and restarting, changing lines etc. My little guy is pretty good skier but marches to the beat of his own drum and makes some unexpected changes in the cadence of his turns and I am worried that he will get hit if he keeps it up. I always tell him to be consistent with his turns. I also have been ingraining it into him to always be looking uphill or anywhere else a skier/boarder can be coming from at an intersection.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 8, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> Okay, how do you figure that?
> 
> See my quote from earlier:
> Thing is, after the first incident years back, I have made a much more conscience effort to pass on the wider side of the trail. I didn't this time, assuming some 25 foot clearance should be good. Bad assumption on my part, obviously. .......
> ...



The reasoning is pretty simple.  If you hit someone who was downhill from you then you did not have enough clearance....it's your fault.  Wide side, tight side, doesn't matter.  I often choose the tight side for the very reason that people are less likely to make a sudden turn towards the trees.  And yup, I've often ended up passing with inches to spare.  Those are the cases I mentioned.  And yup, it was my fault.  I could have (maybe should have) slowed down and made a safer pass.

I totally appreciate how frustrating it is when people make sudden changes in direction.  Even worse, the skier/rider who seems to just keep coming across the whole trail as you're passing.  But it's still your responsibility.  If you have to come to a full stop, do it.


----------



## andyaxa (Mar 8, 2010)

jrmagic said:


> ... My little guy is pretty good skier but marches to the beat of his own drum and makes some unexpected changes in the cadence of his turns and I am worried that he will get hit if he keeps it up.



That's the same with our youngest. She's always looking for something other than the trail. She might be popping in and out of the trees on one side of the trail, spot something cool to jump on the other side and cut across for it. The close call last week really opened her eyes to the fact that there are other skiers in the world. It's a developmental thing with kids and when they start to be cognizant of the society around them. But on the slopes it's not only courtesy it's safety. On the steeper blues she's fine, one line, straight down. She can turn. I've seen her move around and slow for traffic below her, but usually, if there's nothing to play on, it's straight to the bottom. Minutes later I catch up and suggest maybe she toss in a few little turns just for kicks. No fun, she says. Gotta get her some lessons in the Park, I think.


----------



## oakapple (Mar 8, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I spend a lot of time moving through crowded trails at high speeds. Not by choice mind you. There's a limit to my speed vs the density of people on the trails as well, but that being said, I'm pretty sure I'm moving at speeds that make the other people uncomfortable if "I come too close" to them.


I don't want to seem too judgmental, since I haven't seen you ski. But if you are moving at high speeds "not by choice," it sounds like you are either out of control, or willfully pursuing your own enjoyment to the detriment of others'.

While it is technically not a violation of the Responsibility Code to just narrowly avoid someone, I think it is rude to do so if a change in your own behavior would allow you to pass with more of a cushion. If you were in a car, how would you feel about drivers who just barely miss hitting you?


----------



## RootDKJ (Mar 8, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I don't want to seem too judgmental, since I haven't seen you ski. But if you are moving at high speeds "not by choice," it sounds like you are either out of control, or willfully pursuing your own enjoyment to the detriment of others'.
> 
> While it is technically not a violation of the Responsibility Code to just narrowly avoid someone, I think it is rude to do so if a change in your own behavior would allow you to pass with more of a cushion. If you were in a car, how would you feel about drivers who just barely miss hitting you?


The crowds = "not by choice", not my speed.  I'll let the few on here I've skied with pass judgment on if I ski out of control.  I don't think I am anyway.


----------



## gladerider (Mar 8, 2010)

i had a collision this weekend at whiteface, too. it was a weird one, though. weird angle. i have no idea where he came from. i am pretty good at checking my blind sides but not on this one. i think he was going faster than i was coming from behind me. when i realized he was there, it was too late to avoid collision. we both got wiped out pretty big. after the incident, i was shaken up. it was obvious he was shaken up. my board got wasted and i am sure he skiis are messed up too. i don't know who's fault it was. what can you do, $hit happens....


----------



## MommaBear (Mar 8, 2010)

andyaxa said:


> What really freaked me out with the new Spring conditions is the new sound of my tails throwing snow (not quite the carver yet :sad I keep thinking it's another skiier about to plow into me.



Lol!  Had the same sensation this weekend with my shadow!  Caught a shadow off my left, than off my right and thought someone was behind me trying to get by and I was about to get run over.  Turned out it was the snow casting away from my skis causing the shadow.


----------



## 57stevey (Mar 8, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> Nowadays, I can ski real predictable, except in steep bumps and deep virgin powder. And my head is always on swivel, as there are plenty who ski faster than I do, and I don't wish to jump in front of them.



I guess I am in the minority opinion here, but when I am skiing (not starting up, but actively skiing) the last thing I am concerned with is stuff going on behind me that I can't control. Other than a quick check at intersections, my head is pointed down the hill because that's where the trouble may be that I _can_ do something about.


----------



## jrmagic (Mar 8, 2010)

I always listen to what's going on around me. While you can't necessarily control what's happening behind you, if you hear someone close, you can keep track of them somewaht. It comes in handy if you are going to stop somewhere or you want to change position on the trail etc. Yes they should be watching you but what if they don't know or don't care about the code? Better safe than sorry. That's one reason I will never use headphones no the way down the hill.


----------



## ta&idaho (Mar 8, 2010)

Be extra careful on any Colorado ski trips, lest you be held liable for ending the career of a (downhill) ballerina: http://www.skisafety.com/cases/ski_collision_cases/ulissey_v_shvartsman.htm


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2010)

jrmagic said:


> I always listen to what's going on around me.



me too

I'm obviously ultra sensitive because of a major accident I had, but I really can't comprehend people listening to tunes, even softly while skiing/riding.


----------



## ta&idaho (Mar 8, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> Okay, how do you figure that?



I should get back to my actual job, but it looks like many states (western states, at least) put the onus on the uphill skier:

Colorado


> Each skier has the duty to maintain control of his speed and course at all times when skiing and to maintain a proper lookout so as to be able to avoid other skiers and objects. However, *the primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid collision with any person or objects below him*.


Colo. Rev. Stat. § 33-44-109(2)

Nevada


> *A skier or snowboarder shall*, to the extent that the matter is within his control . . . *maintain a proper lookout and control of his speed to avoid downhill objects, skiers and snowboarders to the best of his ability *. . . .


Nev. Rev. Stat. § 455A.110

Oregon


> *Skiers shall not overtake any other skier except in such a manner as to avoid contact* and shall grant the right of way to the overtaken skier.


Or. Rev. Stat. § 30.985(1)(f)

Washington


> Because of the inherent risks in the sport of skiing all persons using the ski hill shall exercise reasonable care for their own safety. However, the *primary duty shall be on the person skiing downhill to avoid any collision with any person or object below him or her*.


Wash. Rev. Code § 7945.030(6)


----------



## evil (Mar 8, 2010)

I ollie over downed soldiers.


----------



## trapedui (Mar 8, 2010)

I can't read this thread without thinking of my daughters, ages 5 and 8.  I do my best to teach them to ski safely and couteously, but they are still just kids and occasionally do dumbs things. They are good about yielding when trails merge and looking uphill before starting.   For my part, I avoid busy trails and when possible, let others go ahead, so that we have no one behind us when we are trying tough terrain.  I am hyper-aware of other skiers and try to keep my body between them and my kids.   

Despite our efforts, I recognize that we are not always easy to ski with.  The kids are good skiers for their age and are learning very quickly.  We are constantly trying new trails or conditions that they have never done before.  Many adult skiers don't expect to see kids on the trails we ski. Sometimes the kids struggle and may fall or stop in a dangerous spot.  Or they may start making quick turns and then make a wide turn across the whole slope to find better snow.  I talk to them about skiing predictably and stopping only when it is safe, but they are kids and sometimes forget. 

I should say that our experience with other skiers has been excellent so far.  I have never heard a complaint and most skiers who stop to talk with us say things like, "She's only 5? That's awesome!  When I was your age, I couldn't even ..."  These comments are great and really boost their confidence.  But once in a while a skier or boarder will zip by way too fast to stop and my heart skips a beat and my blood begins to boil.  I can't say that we have had any really close calls, but I do get nervous.

So here is the bottom line for me.  I will continue to teach my kids best practices and to ski with eyes in the back of my head, doing my best to avoid bad situations.  It is my hope that adult skiers will try to expect the unexpected when skiing near kids.  Children need plently of extra space and patience.  If we cut someone off and they have to stop, we will apologize; but what is important is that the skier is under control and can stop, if necessary.  As the originator of this thread wrote, once bones start breaking, it doesn't really matter whose fault it is.  It just becomes a bad situation that can turn a kid off from skiing for life.


----------



## WakeboardMom (Mar 8, 2010)

I agree with those who have said that they're aware of everything going on around them.  I would never use headphones; I like hearing people approaching me from behind.  I'm very good at keeping my head up, because I had an instructor point out to me a long time ago that I was going to get into trouble looking down at my ski tips!

Interesting that this thread popped up here today, because I had an experience at SR on Saturday that got me thinking about "It's the uphill skier's responsibility..."  Here's a question for you guys.  What about folks coming out of a tree run?  I had a young kid come FLYING out of the trees without looking, heading straight for the middle of the trail where I was skiing.  Because I was skiing close to the side of the trail, and she launched herself out of the woods, If she had come out a couple of seconds later, I would've hit her.  Plain and simple.  

How is that my fault?  There is no way I could've known she was going to appear in front of me like that.

Seconds later, a little bit further down, her friend popped out, but used caution, stopping as she came out of the woods, and before she entered the trail.  

According to the code, I would've been at fault, no?  I've gone over this in mind a bunch of times looking for a solution, because it scares me to think about what could've happened.  I don't think there is one...except to try to be aware.


----------



## Paul (Mar 8, 2010)

WakeboardMom said:


> According to the code, I would've been at fault, no?  I've gone over this in mind a bunch of times looking for a solution, because it scares me to think about what could've happened.  I don't think there is one...except to try to be aware.



No. I'd consider this the same as a merging trail. It is the responsibility of the skier merging onto the trail to yield.


----------



## Highway Star (Mar 8, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> I just discussed this with my wife and I guess I gotta accept that I am at fault here.
> 
> Insert little devilish icon here! So.... I am standing near the bottom of a run, having just stopped and someone is coming. I jump out right in front of him, not looking to see if it is clear, and there is an impact. Since I am moving, I am now the downhill skier, yes? He has to yield to me and he is at fault, yes?
> 
> ...


 
On the subject of yelling, a very loud *"HEY!"*shouted before it's too late is always useful.  People can localize instantly where you are without having to think.....uuuh, what right?

I will shout _before_ the irratic person actually makes their move.  If they are already cutting in front of you, it's too late.

On a crowded traverse, lasting 30+ seconds, I have shouted as much as 3-5 times.


----------



## 57stevey (Mar 8, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> On the subject of yelling, a very loud *"HEY!"*shouted before it's too late is always useful.  People can localize instantly where you are without having to think.....uuuh, what right?



Maybe... or it could startle them into making a sudden turn...

Where are you guys skiing that there is all this traffic anyway? It sounds like NASCAR-style pack racing to me. Seems to me if I can hear another skier behind me then they are already too damned close.


----------



## Skier75 (Mar 8, 2010)

Okay, guess I have to say something here....as Deadheadskier has noticed(or maybe not), I'm not a fast skier, although at times I feel I am....depends who I'm skiing with. Definately not with Deadhead.....LOL...
Anyways I came down after the fact and wondered what happened, didn't see the incident.  All I saw was him picking himself up along with his skis with the father apologizing, the boy looked a little, maybe, embarrassed??? Dunno... Guess hubby should've either went further around him, on the other side of him or stopped. Stinks that accidents do happen, just have to try to avoid them, if you can.

But this is my take on those situations, since I am not that fast a skier, but find myself going faster than a beginner, I always scream on your right or left whichever works, sometimes yes I will scream it more than once. There have been many times that by the time I reach the bottom to catch up with hubby, he's' wondering what happened, I say got stuck behind someone I couldn't get around for a bit.....if I can't safely get by them, then I wait. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Most of my accidents have been of my own accord...if'n I'm gonna get hurt, I'd rather do it myself, than someone else. 

I have had few close calls though. Not to pick on snowboarders, but it was with them most times. Once at SR a kid went flying by me pretty close, kinda dusted me, laughing about it.  I didn't care so much about the dusting, but the fact that he was wayyy too close for comfort, almost knocked me over. So not too far from me he fell, so I went by him and gave him a little dust with a few choice words to go along with it and called him a jerk. He was a bit surprised, I thought he deserved what he got. There were some other instances about the same thing, them boarding way too close to you.  I think I'm a fairly good skier, but when they ski/board wayy too close for comfort, it make me nervous.  Like I said if I'm gonna get hurt I'd rather it be my own fault than anyone else's.... Just my opinion.


----------



## WakeboardMom (Mar 8, 2010)

Paul said:


> No. I'd consider this the same as a merging trail. It is the responsibility of the skier merging onto the trail to yield.



Thank you.  The kid scared the crap outta me.  I'm old.  I could break something easily.  I also wouldn't want to hurt the kid.


----------



## WJenness (Mar 8, 2010)

I had a bit of a collision on skis this past Saturday.

I was at Sunday River for the weekend (GREAT weekend), I got off the Tempest lift, and was headed over to South Ridge to meet a buddy who was doing the intro snowboard class...

There was a race going on on Cascades (Snowboard GS), so they had the trail fenced off, with a small opening and a SR employee acting as traffic cop. 

The snow approaching the gate in the fence was pretty scraped off, and when the employee tried to shuffle some people through the gate, There was a funnel effect that I kind of got stuck in the middle of from people not being able to stop on the scraped surface... I had a small girl (6-8ish) slide in to me, and that sent me sliding into the guy in front of me (on K2 cabrawlers), the girl ended up going down, I managed to keep from falling and keep the other guy on his feet... 

It was all very low speed, one of those things where you see it happen in very slow motion and just can't do anything about it.

Don't really think there was much 'fault' to go around on this one and no one got hurt... but it was definitely my first on slope collision.

-w


----------



## mondeo (Mar 8, 2010)

I take the SR-71 approach to skier/boarder missile evasion. The faster you're going when you pass someone, the less time they have to come across the trail to hit you.


----------



## 57stevey (Mar 9, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> In any case, I am glad no one was hurt other than me. Bench presses are a little tough tonight. More dedication to safety on the slopes.



Bob, perhaps I have playing devil's advocate a bit here and I certainly wouldn't want you to take anything personally. The fact that you came here to sound everyone out shows that you took the incident seriously, and you are thinking about what you yourself can do going forward, so good on you sir. I was just dismayed in general at the amount of debate here, when the code itself seems to be completely unambiguous... any downhill skier/rider not entering the trail has the right of way, period. Period.

I understand your wish to be aware of what's behind you, but I can only speak from my personal experience. I would say I am an advanced but not expert skier. At many of the places I ski, I am one of the faster skiers on the trail, so I spend a fair amount of time overtaking. I really do not want the person ahead of me guessing what I am going to do and trying compensate... I take the responsibility to try and anticipate all the things they _might_ do and put myself in a position to deal with whatever might transpire. So if they are making short turns down the left margin of the trail and then suddenly decide to take that cutoff to the right, I figure I should have seen that the cutoff is there. If I'm looking over my shoulder to see what's going on behind me, maybe I don't see what's about to occur. Now when I go to someplace like Cannon where I am one of the slower skiers, I just ski the way I ski, and have faith that anyone overtaking me is competent enough to have my back. Maybe this approach fails on a Saturday at Sunapee, but that's the kind of environment I try to avoid altogether.

As far as boarders sitting in the middle of the trail, I am told that it's easier for them to get themselves going again since they can go to either side. Once I grasped this, I stopped getting mad at them and started just skiing around them.

Anyway, thanks for bringing this to the table.


----------



## RootDKJ (Mar 9, 2010)

I clipped a dude I was riding with last night.  He decided to sit down right on the backside of a jump, about a foot down from the lip, as I was coming over the top.  By some miracle, my ski tip only clipped the tricep area on his right arm as I was now trying to land one legged and keep my balance.  

I apolgized profusily, and the 1st thing he said was "that was a stupid place to sit down".  Damn right. We had a Smartstyle review on the next lift ride up, and by the time we got to the top, his arm didn't hurt any more.


----------



## andyaxa (Mar 9, 2010)

Echoing what Steve said, I think it's a good topic to discuss and obviously Bob is a thoughtful skier. Thanks for bringing it up.

It seems we all agree that in the end, bottom line, the responsibility unequivocally lies with the uphill skier unless merging, entering etc below. Period. As Billski pointed out a number of posts back, what makes the mountain challenging traffic-wise is the varying abilities that might exist on a given trail at any moment. I guess the debate/discussion is not who is responsible but how defensively we each choose to ski. I am one of the slower skiers on the steeper slopes and prone to changing course, slowing etc. I don't usually overtake anyone unless they are sitting down in the trail. My concentration is focused ALMOST 100% downslope, but if I need to make a radical change and IF I have time and can check uphill safely I will. I will also instruct my kids to do the same, because unfortunately not all the skiers overtaking us are Alpine Zoners. If my seven year old would have actually been hit last week, she would probably be in the hospital now. Would it have been the uphill skiers fault? Yep. Could it have been averted by checking uphill briefly before suddenly traversing 2/3 of the trail? You bet. I don't want to put my faith and my three daughters' safety in the hands of people I don't know, if I don't have to.


----------



## 57stevey (Mar 9, 2010)

Can't argue with that logic Andy. Thanks


----------



## SIKSKIER (Mar 9, 2010)

100% responsibility of the overtaking skier.No ifs ands or buts. I might get passed  3 or 4 times a year at most so I pretty much pass a lot of people every run.It does not matter that the skier your overtaking is skiing irradically and turns unexspected in your path.You*must* expect that to happen and gauge your turns accordingly.I actually really enjoy the art of overtaking any one in front of me by varying my turns to be the exact opposite at that moment.See you later.Probably not.


----------



## catskillman (Mar 9, 2010)

Sorry but you were definitly at fault. 

 Instructors are supposed to teach this & the responsibility is part of the PSIA exam.


What I keep hearing more & more about are serious injuries caused by individuals jumping over obstacles and hitting some innocent person below.  Spotters must always be used before jumping.

2 major injuries at Hunter this season - race kid jumped (no spotter), snowboarder sitting on snow below.  He tried to avoid and the kid (jumper) ended up with punctured lung, borken collarbone, ribs..........

Same thing last week except the non jumper got hit by a snowboarder jumping.  He has 9 broken ribs and a punctured collarbone.  And every part of him is sore, bruiised and /or cut.


----------



## catskills (Mar 10, 2010)

There is someone else that is responsible here that has not been mentioned in this thread.   The *RESORT also has a responsibility* to design the ski area in such away as to not over crowd trails with large number of skiers and riders.   This is especially true in early Nov/Dec season when their are a limited number of trails open. 

I skied at Mt Snow on a Dec 15 Saturday once with an intermediate skier friend.  The only trail off the top was Deer Run.  There were so many people on that trail I though I was going to get killed.  My technique getting down that day was ski faster than anyone else and then stop behind a tree to wait for my friend.

On the other end of the spectrum is Plattekill.  Plattekill has the least skier/rider density on their trails.


----------



## andyaxa (Mar 10, 2010)

catskills said:


> ... then stop behind a tree to wait for my friend.


Love that visual!


----------



## bigbog (Mar 10, 2010)

SUV Steve nailed it.."_anticipation_".  That's the word that was escaping me in earlier reply.  Have to anticipate to the max these days.  Much like blowdowns up here outside the resort.


----------



## campgottagopee (Mar 10, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> Gotta say, after all this discussion, I am glad that it stayed discussion, and did not degenerate into arguing.
> 
> What I am taking out of this is I need to place more emphasis on safety, first of all. Second, I am getting it that the downhill skier has absolute right of way, no matter what. Beginner, intermediate, expert, in over their heads on this trail, stupid idiot, doesn't matter, if they are downhill, they have the right of way. I also guess if someone cuts anyone off, that is their right or prerogative, since they are downhill and looking where they are going and not looking back up hill.
> 
> I'll be skiing accordingly. *And most of all, no injuries to anyone, myself included. Let's keep this fun for all*.



Amen to that!!!!

We had a near collision yesterday invovling 2 of my very close friends, it could've been VERY bad due to the speed we were skiing at. Just one of those fluke things, and glad we were all able to laugh about it over a beer. I shutter to think what might have happened.


----------



## SKidds (Mar 10, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> I just discussed this with my wife and I guess I gotta accept that I am at fault here.
> 
> Insert little devilish icon here! So.... I am standing near the bottom of a run, having just stopped and someone is coming. I jump out right in front of him, not looking to see if it is clear, and there is an impact. Since I am moving, I am now the downhill skier, yes? He has to yield to me and he is at fault, yes?


I gotta go with you and others who finally agree you were at fault in the situation.  Oh, and your devils advocate argument above doesn't hold melted snow, either. ;-).

When two sliders are moving down the hill, it is always the responsibility of the uphill skier to avoid the downhill skier.   The downhill skier should not have to look above them before they turn or stop, thought they really shouldn't stop in the middle of the trail.  But the uphill skier should always be skiing with enough control to avoid the downhill skier, regardless of what the downhill skier does.  

You secondary argument assumes different facts.  You are stopped on a trail.  Prior to beginning to ski again, you should look above you to make sure that nobody is coming.  Same as merging onto a new trail where the person merging should always look above on the trail they are entering to make sure nobody is coming.

The downhill skier in motion always has the right of way.  If a skier is stopped, or is merging into a new trail, the uphill skier in motion has the right of way.

All that said, this past weekend I was skiing with my brother, both of us making fast GS turns on Mountain Run at WF as we concluded first tracks.  Nobody on slope but us, perfectly groomed courduroy.  Sweet!  I make a somewhat of a hardish left hand turn, altering my pattern, to get to an even sweeter part of the trail........and he almost clipped me.  He would have been at fault had we collided!


----------



## dmc (Mar 10, 2010)

uphillklimber said:


> This kid had stopped. He was not moving. Then for some unknown reason, he decides to swing his board in front of me. He didn't look before doing so. .



He may've been attempting to position his board to stand up after a fall..  It can be awkward for some to reposition a deck across the falline to stand and ride... Sometimes it requires a flip almost to swing the deck around.
Liken it to a skier falling and having the skis pointing in different directions. while laid out on the ground...  He's going to have to pull the ski off the snow and flip it around before he can stand.


----------



## dmc (Mar 10, 2010)

It may be easier for him to start on the heel side..  Facing down hill.
He was on all 4s - so he was facing up hill on his toe side..

I had to pull that maneuver on the Tucks headwall...  Almost pooped myself...


----------



## Chunk (Mar 10, 2010)

I spent a bit of time in Queenstown New Zealand last winter and saw some crazy collision! Theres so many beginner skiers and riders on slopes above there level! If you guys ever visit coronet peak just be sure to keep your eyes out cause I guarantee they wont!


----------



## my poor knees (Apr 5, 2011)

I saw a guy skiing with jingle bells attached to his poles, I assume so people hear him, I bet he was ina  bad accident. I think too many inexperienced skiers make unexpected dangerous quick turns without looking, sort of like how people drive their cars. I'm not ready for jingle bells yet but I do say left & right quite a bit, so far so good.


----------



## WJenness (Apr 5, 2011)

While at Sugarloaf for the AZ Summit, I saw the worst on-slope collision I've ever seen under the Double Runner Chairs (Pretty sure it's a slow skiing zone) as I was riding up.

An older guy was skiing in the fall line (what little there is... it's a pretty flat trail) on lookers right of the trail (Boardwalk I believe... the one we had our race on last year), underneath the 'long side' of the chairs. He wasn't going too fast, but was cruising along.

Some guy on a snowboard was ripping across the trail at a pretty high rate of speed, and crashed into him broadside, causing the skier to lose both skis and do a front flip and land on his back... The snowboarder fell and slid into the woods.

I guess the skier would be the 'at fault' party here, all things considered... but the accident was likely exacerbated by both parties skiing close to the lift towers. Neither party saw the other until they popped out from behind the lift tower a fraction of a second before the impact. The skier was next to the lift tower, the snowboarder below it, as they saw each other, neither had time to react and the impact was sudden and violent.

The snowboarder seemed okay and popped out of the woods and ran over to the other guy who was lying motionless on the snow for a while, but I did see him moving around after a bit.

I hope they were both OK, but that was scary to watch from the chair.

-w


----------



## Highway Star (Apr 5, 2011)

SUV Steve said:


> Maybe... or it could startle them into making a sudden turn...
> 
> Where are you guys skiing that there is all this traffic anyway? It sounds like NASCAR-style pack racing to me. Seems to me if I can hear another skier behind me then they are already too damned close.


 
It all depends on the technique and situation.  A yell when someone (intermediate to low advanced) is traveling at a good clip in either a straight line or large turns on a cat track will usually result in straight travel, so you can get a clean overtake. 

Beginners turning irraticly at slow speed and cutting across a cat track, when yelled at, will usually try to change direction and/or just fall down.  I feel bad about this occasionally, but this is preferable to a 20+ mph closing speed collision.  They do not have the right to ski dangerously and occupy the entire trail when people are trying to travel on it at a reasonable speed.

It should be noted that I quite often check my speed when there are large groups of people on a cat track.  A yell is only effective when passing a 1-2 people.


----------



## legalskier (Apr 5, 2011)

I usually stick to the side of the trail when others are present- it reduces the risk of collision and increases the chance of better snow.  However, last season while doing this a young boarder literally launched out of the woods a mere couple of feet in front of me at about shoulder level, then landing on the trail at a high rate of speed. He almost took my head off. I pride myself on situational awareness but I had no idea he was there until he was in front of my face. That was a close one.


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 5, 2011)

Yelling "On your right" or left is decent, you need to hope that the other person has received the message though.  Navigating through other skiers is my least favorite aspect of the sport.  One of the main reasons I like midweek and/or less popular resorts.


----------



## Morwax (Apr 5, 2011)

Wow... as many post as ive seen now about yelling, clicking your poles etc... I still dont get whats so hard to understand. 
1.Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects. 
2.People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.


----------



## marcski (Apr 5, 2011)

2 weeks ago at the top of Windham, a boarder, who was a large man, barely even moving, couldn't stop and at a slow speed, took my wife out, who was I think standing still after buckling her boots once off the chair.  His board contacted her knee and gave her a small bruise. That was all she felt at the time. But later that night, realized her finger had gotten jammed too.  Swelled up pretty good for a few days but went down. Got a little worried that she broke it...but doesn't seem like it. Just be careful. I am always telling my girls that they have to be careful of skiers below them and that they must stop and look uphill when merging onto a trail.


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 5, 2011)

Morwax said:


> Wow... as many post as ive seen now about yelling, clicking your poles etc... I still dont get whats so hard to understand.
> 1.Always stay in control, and be able to stop or avoid other people or objects.
> 2.People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.


The part you're missing is that erratic behavior by the downhill skier can interfere with one's ability to abide by 2.  We can get into a long-winded argument about who is at fault, but there's really no denying that erratic turns on a crowded cat track is a good way to cause an accident.  If the responsibility code says the other person is always 100% at fault in those cases, it's flawed IMO.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2011)

marcski said:


> 2 weeks ago at the top of Windham,* a boarder, who was a large man, barely even moving, couldn't stop and at a slow speed, took my wife out*



Similar story.

A few weeks ago at Plattekill, a young snowboarder on a Princess Barbie snowboard (true story) took out my girlfriend directly from behind.  Went right into and under her from behind, knocking out and off her skis.  Worse yet, the little snowboard queen grabbed my girlfriend, presumably to stabilize herself, and yanked her down.  Her knee is still sore. 

 It's a child, she's learning, I 100% get it.  Not even remotely mad at the kid.  The father with her however, who saw all of this all happen, goes right over to the kid to make sure she's okay (she is), and says nothing to my girlfriend at all.  No apology, nothing.  Worse yet, nor does he yell at his kid for 1) Going too fast 2) Being out of control 3) Dragging someone down (literally) or even use it as a teaching moment of "what not to do" on the slopes.  Unreal.


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 5, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Similar story.
> 
> A few weeks ago at Plattekill, a young snowboarder on a Princess Barbie snowboard (true story) took out my girlfriend directly from behind.  Went right into and under her from behind, knocking out and off her skis.  Worse yet, the little snowboard queen grabbed my girlfriend, presumably to stabilize herself, and yanked her down.  Her knee is still sore.
> 
> It's a child, she's learning, I 100% get it.  Not even remotely mad at the kid.  The father with her however, who saw all of this all happen, goes right over to the kid to make sure she's okay (she is), and says nothing to my girlfriend at all.  No apology, nothing.  Worse yet, nor does he yell at his kid for 1) Going too fast 2) Being out of control 3) Dragging someone down (literally) or even use it as a teaching moment of "what not to do" on the slopes.  Unreal.



Did you yell at him?


----------



## dmc (Apr 5, 2011)

black phantom said:


> did you yell at him?



yeah - kick his ass!!!


----------



## Morwax (Apr 5, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> The part you're missing is that erratic behavior by the downhill skier can interfere with one's ability to abide by 2.  We can get into a long-winded argument about who is at fault, but there's really no denying that erratic turns on a crowded cat track is a good way to cause an accident.  If the responsibility code says the other person is always 100% at fault in those cases, it's flawed IMO.


 No flaws and no ambiguity about it either. If you can't stop, slow down or avoid someone who is making "erratic" turns, your at fault period. I often make tight turns followed by long carving tuns sometimes ill just throw the brakes on so stay off my azz.
 As far as someone starting out or merging, without looking up thats in the code as well.
 Theres no need to yell or bang your poles together


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Did you yell at him?





dmc said:


> yeah - kick his ass!!!



I wasnt on the trail.  My gf is an advanced beginner, and so I was off skiing some of the tougher stuff.  But the funny thing is with how small Plattekill is (and with only 2 lifts) you often see the same people again and again throughout the day.  And the girl was an absolutely adorable, 7 year old toe-head in pigtails, on aforementioned Princess Barbie snowboard.  Even if an argument ensued and it went really ugly, you'd have to be pure evil to beat up her dad in front of her. lol.


----------



## x10003q (Apr 5, 2011)

On Friday at Stratton a little kid (5-6) popped out of the woods airborne and lands about 10 feet in front of me. I was on a flat section connecting to Polar Bear without  a single person in front or behind me. I was hugging the skiers left enjoying some fresh snow when this kid comes out of nowhere. Another couple of feet closer and I would have killed him. His mother was about 100 yards down the slope out of sight waiting for him. I didn't bother to say anything. It scared the hell out of me. Sometimes you are just lucky.


----------



## billski (Apr 5, 2011)

BenedictGomez said:


> Similar story.
> 
> The father with her however, who saw all of this all happen, goes right over to the kid to make sure she's okay (she is), and says nothing to my girlfriend at all.  No apology, nothing.  Worse yet, nor does he yell at his kid for 1) Going too fast 2) Being out of control 3) Dragging someone down (literally) or even use it as a teaching moment of "what not to do" on the slopes.  Unreal.



In the mighty USA common courtesy and generosity are dead.  
Everywhere.


----------



## whitemtn27 (Apr 5, 2011)

Someone turning erratically in front of you isn't dangerous.  If you are overtaking them at a speed and distance where you can't avoid hitting them if they suddenly change direction, you are being dangerous.

Normally we think of 'unexpected turners' as inexperienced people, but what if there's an unmarked hazard?  What if someone launches out of the woods in front of the person you're overtaking and they have to swerve?  Yes, it's less fun to slow down and hang back until you have a safe space to pass, but them's the rules.  If you don't like it, find a less crowded trail and/or resort.

Getting rear-ended is another story.  I got hit three times in one weekend at Killington this fall and I was stopped, visible, out of the traffic pattern for two of them.  Just newbie skiers/riders that were out of control and couldn't stop.  No injuries, but annoying anyway.

FWIW, my biggest gripe is when a mountain has all these 'mountain ambassadors' or whatever hanging around, yet they don't do anything about people out of control, launching out of the trees without looking, stopping where they can't be seen from above, etc.  There needs to be a lot more of this 'heads up, know the code' campaign.  The rule adherence has been getting worse lately.


----------



## buellski (Apr 5, 2011)

whitemtn27 said:


> Someone turning erratically in front of you isn't dangerous.  If you are overtaking them at a speed and distance where you can't avoid hitting them if they suddenly change direction, you are being dangerous.
> 
> Normally we think of 'unexpected turners' as inexperienced people, but what if there's an unmarked hazard?  What if someone launches out of the woods in front of the person you're overtaking and they have to swerve?  Yes, it's less fun to slow down and hang back until you have a safe space to pass, but them's the rules.  If you don't like it, find a less crowded trail and/or resort.
> 
> ...



+1  If I'm bombing down a trail and come up on a lot of gapers, I hit the brakes and pick my way through, slowly and safely.  As soon as I get some open space, I get back on the gas.  Common sense.

My son and I were skiing a little off the map in some fresh snow this winter at Sunapee when we came upon another rider in the woods.  She asked if we had seen anyone back up the hill, and I stopped and told her no.  My son and I then proceeded to head back onto the closest trail which was maybe 25 yards or so from where we stopped to talk to the rider.  Once we got back on  the trail, we stopped to :highfive: and talk about the run.  No sooner did we stop when the rider pops out of the woods behind us and takes my son out.  Knocked him flat on his butt.  He was fine and the rider apologized profusely.  The rider's excuse: " I was looking back in the woods for my friend."  I reminded her in no uncertain terms that she needed to be aware of others around her and to pay attention to where she was going.  Again, common sense.


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 6, 2011)

billski said:


> In the mighty USA common courtesy and generosity are dead.
> Everywhere.



:flag::flag::highfive:

When are you heading back out on the hill buddy?:comfort:


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 6, 2011)

whitemtn27 said:


> *Someone turning erratically in front of you isn't dangerous.*



So you feel it's safest to turn erratically in front of people?
Get my point yet?


----------



## Morwax (Apr 6, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> So you feel it's safest to turn erratically in front of people?
> Get my point yet?


 I guess I dont get your point:dunce:


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 6, 2011)

In an accident involving a fast moving skier colliding with a skier who is skiing erratically across a trail, the fast moving skier will technically be at fault based on the responsibility code.  What I'm saying is that regardless of who the police/patrol/board members blame, the erratic zig-zagger is going to be involved in more collisions vs. someone who skis predictably because the zig-zagging is inherently dangerous even if it's not a violation of any code.


----------



## Morwax (Apr 6, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> In an accident involving a fast moving skier colliding with a skier who is skiing erratically across a trail, the fast moving skier will technically be at fault based on the responsibility code.  What I'm saying is that regardless of who the police/patrol/board members blame, the erratic zig-zagger is going to be involved in more collisions vs. someone who skis predictably because the zig-zagging is inherently dangerous even if it's not a violation of any code.



 Technically AND legally responsible. 
 Again I see no ambiguity in the code when it comes to this situation. 
 Awfully selfish to put someone elses health or safety at risk so you can hold a line or pretend your in a race. 
 Where you ever a zig-zagger or did you skip right to pro?


----------



## billski (Apr 6, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> :flag::flag::highfive:
> 
> When are you heading back out on the hill buddy?:comfort:



Not looking like it's gonna happen.  birthday, anniversary, Easter.
I had a bang-up final two days: Paradise, Stowe slack country.  Someone in my posse got hurt, kinda put a damper on things.  

Hey, there's still snow in my yard!


----------



## bobbutts (Apr 6, 2011)

Morwax said:


> Technically AND legally responsible.
> Again I see no ambiguity in the code when it comes to this situation.
> Awfully selfish to put someone elses health or safety at risk so you can hold a line or pretend your in a race.
> Where you ever a zig-zagger or did you skip right to pro?


 I'm not claiming to be a pro or anywhere close to it, just a solid recreational skier and snowboarder with plenty of experience. I never crashed into anyone or even had a close call.   I'm just saying don't zig zag or else you're more likely to get hit (not by me, I'll avoid you).


----------



## gmcunni (Apr 6, 2011)

who is at fault ?


----------



## speden (Apr 6, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> who is at fault ?



Insufficient video evidence.  If the girl was stopped and then restarted without looking uphill for traffic, I'd say she was at fault.  If she was just poking along slowly down the trail, then the uphill skier was at fault.  If the cameraman was overweight and blocked the uphill skiers view of the downhill traffic, then he was at fault.


----------



## wa-loaf (Apr 6, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> who is at fault ?



2Knees is always at fault. :lol:


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 7, 2011)

billski said:


> Not looking like it's gonna happen.  birthday, anniversary, Easter.
> I had a bang-up final two days: Paradise, Stowe slack country.  Someone in my posse got hurt, kinda put a damper on things.
> 
> Hey, there's still snow in my yard!



How about making a run up to the Institution for May 1 to see what it's all about?:beer::comfort:

You could cover many bases and file your last beloved trip report. An intertwined web...


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 7, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> who is at fault ?



Theres not "at fault" in this sequence. Even though the bump skier was going fast. He was still under control enough to make a quick adjustment to keep from hitting the girl. Exactly what is expected. She fell over from the surprise of seeing someone coming straight at her (I don't think he even hit her skis). In this case, no collision = no problem. It looks like she may have popped out from a connecting trail without looking. I would still apologize for scaring her, but I would also give her some diplomatic advice about merging onto trails.

BTW where are the chairs with people on them going up hill? I don't know if I've ever seen a chair with a separate set of towers for the return line.


----------



## Robbski (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't see the "right of way" as being the right issue.  The code speaks of responsibility not rights and there is a difference.  

That said, the kid was clearly over her head on a fairly narrow bump trail and shouldn't have been there but the onus is on the uphill skier  (the bump skier) who should have checked up sooner if he saw an obvious gaper ahead. If she just popped out, well it was an accident and shit happens when you are on slippery stuff going fast.  But I think they both handled it well once it went wrong.


----------



## 2knees (Apr 7, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> 2Knees is always at fault. :lol:





lol, that was a great day but she wrecked a really nice line there.

In this case, I saw her standing there, she was looking at me and I at her so I went.  Much to my surprise, after i got going, she just kinda pulled out into the line.  We didnt collide but it was close and I did apologize immediately.  I probably should've just waited for her to go further down but I thought she was aware that I was coming on through.  

shit happens.


----------



## Highway Star (Apr 7, 2011)

whitemtn27 said:


> Someone turning erratically in front of you isn't dangerous. If you are overtaking them at a speed and distance where you can't avoid hitting them if they suddenly change direction, you are being dangerous.
> 
> Normally we think of 'unexpected turners' as inexperienced people, but what if there's an unmarked hazard? What if someone launches out of the woods in front of the person you're overtaking and they have to swerve? Yes, it's less fun to slow down and hang back until you have a safe space to pass, but them's the rules. If you don't like it, find a less crowded trail and/or resort.
> 
> ...


 
You're obviously doing something wrong.  I ski Killington and have never been hit.


----------



## Highway Star (Apr 7, 2011)

2knees said:


> lol, that was a great day but she wrecked a really nice line there.
> 
> In this case, I saw her standing there, she was looking at me and I at her so I went. Much to my surprise, after i got going, she just kinda pulled out into the line. We didnt collide but it was close and I did apologize immediately. I probably should've just waited for her to go further down but I thought she was aware that I was coming on through.
> 
> shit happens.


 
Pretty much happens all the time at Killington. I'll usually wait until an entire trail clears before doing GS/Super-G turns, because you never know what the stopped people are going to go. 

The other day, I was waiting to rip GS/SG on lower double dipper. Stopped at the end of the breakover, about 1/4 way down, where it gets steep. Waited several minutes for groups to pass and ski down. Was clear except for two people about 300 yards down, opposite the end of the snowmaking line, at the bottom of downdraft. Yelled at the top of my lungs and then went. About 4 turns and I'm at 50-60+ mph, from a standstill I've covered half the distance in them in less than 10 seconds. Then they ski out blindly into the middle of the trail. Have to make a long sweeping speed check turn/slide, because there just wasn't enough room to safely avoid them at speed in that area of the trail, due to a partial groom.

Granted, they probably couldn't hear my yell, but did they look up hill? If they did, did they look far enough to see me and judge my closing speed? Evidently not.

68 mph is 100 ft/sec. That's a football field in 3 seconds.


----------



## 2knees (Apr 7, 2011)

ever worry about catching an edge at that speed? 

I've seen some weird crap at k over the years.  On the top of the ironic list would be two telemarkers crashing into each other and nearly coming to blows. I thought all tele skiers were comatose hippies. Probably the only 2 tele skiers at the entire place too.  In the double take deptartment, i almost got creamed on superstar a few years ago, which by itself isnt that odd but the guy was carrying his kid in his arms as he flew by me at mach 1.


----------



## neil (Apr 7, 2011)

2knees said:


> ever worry about catching an edge at that speed?



Highway Star does not catch edges. Physicists have studied his form and determined it impossible.


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 7, 2011)

neil said:


> Highway Star does not catch edges. Physicists have studied his form and determined it impossible.



How could he catch an edge when he lives on it?


----------



## Highway Star (Apr 7, 2011)

neil said:


> Highway Star does not catch edges. Physicists have studied his form and determined it impossible.


 
Actually, I worry more about walking out of a binding, even set to 13.  I've got a pair of S920's I've been intending to put on those skis.

I'm very selective about when, were and in what conditions I'll ski at those speeds...I took a good long look at DD while riding the CQ before attempting that.


----------



## Morwax (Apr 10, 2011)

I cant believe we are still arguing that going fast or being in a line somehow overrides the code.
 IT DOES NOT!
 Yes there are situations where the downhill gaper could use more common sense but think about what we are asking here. That a begginer never venture onto a mogul field until they can ski it? How would they ever learn? IMHO the slower and less capable ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt 
 In the video the question gets asked whos at fault...I say the bump skier:beer:


----------

