# Snowmaking underway at Killington



## SpinmasterK (Oct 13, 2009)

Snowmaking is underway at Killington for the 2009-10 season! We started around 1 a.m. on Reason and will be moving to Rime and Upper Great Northern later this afternoon/evening as temperatures drop. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington

Video coming shortly.


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## severine (Oct 13, 2009)

Forgive me for being out of the loop but does this translate to an anticipated opening day in the near future...?


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## powhunter (Oct 13, 2009)

Great news Spin!!! Thanks for the update!!

steveo


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## RootDKJ (Oct 13, 2009)

Awesome!


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## sLoPeS (Oct 13, 2009)

WOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!

:beer:


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## WoodCore (Oct 13, 2009)

Sweet!!!


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## Puck it (Oct 13, 2009)

Booya daddy!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## SkiDork (Oct 13, 2009)

And there it is.


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## skiingsnow (Oct 13, 2009)

Awesome!!


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

severine said:


> Forgive me for being out of the loop but does this translate to an anticipated opening day in the near future...?



I would think/hope so. They need about 60 hours of snow making to get open T2B. Ask Highway Gnar for the precise foot acreage or whatever that is.  Anyway, it looks like a stock piling effort up top right now. Hopefully, they can make snow down to the base later in the week.


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## Rambo (Oct 13, 2009)

Found this on youtube.


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## Highway Star (Oct 13, 2009)

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2009)

severine said:


> Forgive me for being out of the loop but does this translate to an anticipated opening day in the near future...?



The long range forecast for next week looks like a return to more seasonal weather beginning Sunday.   Lower Bunny is unlikely to last the week.   Like the Preston Smith days, this one comes out of the marketing budget.   It will be interesting to see whether they are serious about returning to the whole "Beast of the East" thing.

I personally would appreciate more candor from them.   "We want to open this weekend but we need temps of Xxxxxx and humidity of Yyyyyy on Lower Bunny for Zzzzzz hours for that to happen." or "We looked at the 10 day forecast and we don't think we'll get more than 2 or 3 days before lower Bunny melts out.   The best we can do is stockpile snow on the upper mountain and open on the next cold snap."


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## Highway Star (Oct 13, 2009)

Greg said:


> I would think/hope so. They need about 60 hours of snow making to get open T2B. Ask Highway Gnar for the precise foot acreage or whatever that is.  Anyway, it looks like a stock piling effort up top right now. Hopefully, they can make snow down to the base later in the week.


 
Do a search.   I don't have time right now to go over the numbers again.


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I personally would appreciate more candor from them.   "We want to open this weekend but we need temps of Xxxxxx and humidity of Yyyyyy on Lower Bunny for Zzzzzz hours for that to happen." or "We looked at the 10 day forecast and we don't think we'll get more than 2 or 3 days before lower Bunny melts out.   The best we can do is stockpile snow on the upper mountain and open on the next cold snap."



I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with the day-by-day thing. They've got a nice window this week so it's cool they're going for it. Doubt they would have this early in the past few years. What 10 day are you looking at Geoff? Looks like night-time opportunities for snowmaking down to the base according to the NWS 7 day.


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Do a search.   I don't have time right now to go over the numbers again.



Don't worry. It's not a critical factoid for me to know right now... :lol:


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## severine (Oct 13, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I personally would appreciate more candor from them.   "We want to open this weekend but we need temps of Xxxxxx and humidity of Yyyyyy on Lower Bunny for Zzzzzz hours for that to happen." or "We looked at the 10 day forecast and we don't think we'll get more than 2 or 3 days before lower Bunny melts out.   The best we can do is stockpile snow on the upper mountain and open on the next cold snap."


I was hoping for exactly that kind of response from SpinmasterK! 

It's a neat marketing trick but I'm curious to know what they're planning this for exactly.


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## Grassi21 (Oct 13, 2009)

Woo F'in Hoo!


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

severine said:


> It's a neat marketing trick but I'm curious to know what they're planning this for exactly.



It appears to me like legitimate higher elevation stock piling, not solely marketing hype. Of course, pass prices increase on Friday so the timing is fantastic from a marketing standpoint. If we don't see significant whales by the end of the week, and the guns shut off on Friday while it's still cold, we'll know the true intention. I doubt that will be the case though.

In either case, this still has me psyched!


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

http://news.alpinezone.com/64916/



> Based on the current forecast with overnight temperatures ranging from the middle 20s down to the middle teens, *snowmaking will continue for the next four-six days.*


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2009)

Greg said:


> I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with the day-by-day thing. They've got a nice window this week so it's cool they're going for it. Doubt they would have this early in the past few years. What 10 day are you looking at Geoff? Looks like night-time opportunities for snowmaking down to the base according to the NWS 7 day.



I glanced at the Weather.com 10-day since the NWS only goes out 7.   Next week looks like "normal mid-October".   50-ish.   Some nice days.   Some cloudy days where it spits a little.   No huge warmup.   No huge deluge.   Lower Bunny might not freeze up overnight on some of the nights.

This one is going to be fun to watch.   They could open but the odds are low that they could stay open.   We'll see how important season length is with their new marketing strategy.


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## Glenn (Oct 13, 2009)

Can someone attach a pic or two? Flikr is firewalled.....  :-x


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## ta&idaho (Oct 13, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Can someone attach a pic or two? Flikr is firewalled.....  :-x



Here are two (with their Creative Commons attribution)

<div xmlns:cc="http://creativecommons.org/ns#" about="http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington/4007609437/"><a rel="cc:attributionURL" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington/</a> / <a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/">CC BY-NC-ND 2.0</a></div>


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## Highway Star (Oct 13, 2009)

Geoff said:


> The long range forecast for next week looks like a return to more seasonal weather beginning Sunday. Lower Bunny is unlikely to last the week. Like the Preston Smith days, this one comes out of the marketing budget. It will be interesting to see whether they are serious about returning to the whole "Beast of the East" thing.
> 
> I personally would appreciate more candor from them. "We want to open this weekend but we need temps of Xxxxxx and humidity of Yyyyyy on Lower Bunny for Zzzzzz hours for that to happen." or "We looked at the 10 day forecast and we don't think we'll get more than 2 or 3 days before lower Bunny melts out. The best we can do is stockpile snow on the upper mountain and open on the next cold snap."


 
This bothers me.  If they aren't going for an opening, there's nothing stopping the weather from taking a turn for the worse and completely melting out the snow they are making right now, before anyone has a chance to ski it. 

At least if they get open...........


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> This bothers me.  If they aren't going for an opening, there's nothing stopping the weather from taking a turn for the worse and completely melting out the snow they are making right now, before anyone has a chance to ski it.
> 
> At least if they get open...........



Thanks.






Seriously, preaching to the choir. Nothing more we can do at this point than hope for the best, which is what I'm doing. This is nothing new. We go through this every year. It just adds to the stoke level.


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## andyzee (Oct 13, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> This bothers me.  If they aren't going for an opening, there's nothing stopping the weather from taking a turn for the worse and completely melting out the snow they are making right now, before anyone has a chance to ski it.
> 
> At least if they get open...........



If you're to believe present forecasts, conditions look good into Monday.


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## Glenn (Oct 13, 2009)

ta&idaho said:


> Here are two (with their Creative Commons attribution)
> 
> <div xmlns:cc="http://creativecommons.org/ns#" about="http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington/4007609437/"><a rel="cc:attributionURL" href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington/">http://www.flickr.com/photos/killington/</a> / <a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/">CC BY-NC-ND 2.0</a></div>




Excellent! Thanks for posting those!


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## SpinmasterK (Oct 13, 2009)

severine said:


> I was hoping for exactly that kind of response from SpinmasterK!
> 
> It's a neat marketing trick but I'm curious to know what they're planning this for exactly.



The short-term plan is to stockpile at the peak. We'll have to see if the forecast allows for snowmaking down Lower Bunny in this window. If not, looks like another good window for snowmaking temps begins on the 24th. Right now though, we're taking it day to day. 
BTW, this is not a marketing trick!


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> BTW, this is not a marketing trick!



Says the "Spin Master"!! 

Keep pounding away. Post some pics as the whales grow up there! :beer:


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## SpinmasterK (Oct 13, 2009)

Forecast looks real nice! 
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...6757812&site=btv&smap=1&marine=0&unit=0&lg=en


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Forecast looks real nice!
> http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...6757812&site=btv&smap=1&marine=0&unit=0&lg=en



Indeed. Gotta watch this one too (the Bunny Buster forecast): :lol: 

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...3250732&site=btv&smap=1&marine=0&unit=0&lg=en

What's the gun status right now Tom? Still firing, or a midday break?


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## Highway Star (Oct 13, 2009)




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## Johnskiismore (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow, looks great!!


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## danpop (Oct 13, 2009)

The picture is from 10/30/2008... last season's snowmaking..


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## Highway Star (Oct 13, 2009)

danpop said:


> The picture is from 10/30/2008... last season's snowmaking..


 
.....point being, that was the day (Thursday) they STARTED making snow at the base of the K-1, and they were open on that Sunday.  They could have been open that Saturday.......


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## deadheadskier (Oct 13, 2009)

Are the guns going on Fiddle yet?


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## drjeff (Oct 13, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> .....point being, that was the day (Thursday) they STARTED making snow at the base of the K-1, and they were open on that Sunday.  They could have been open that Saturday.......



Based on that clear blue sky, with the clouds draped from the West heading East off K-peak in that pic,  I'm guessing that the snowmaking conditions that day were just a smidge better than today's close to freezing/high humidity condtions,  and I'll guarentee that the ground in that pic from last year was a heck of a lot more frozen than it is right now.  HS, you seem to being trying to compare apples and oranges in that pic vs. today.

Will they have a good window of dry air and DECENT temps the next 36-48 hours, looks like it.  While there then likely be some humdity thrown into the equation later this week,  probably so.  

I'd also be that from a marketing standpoint,  K would LOVE to have the Techno-Alpin at the Chute/Mouse Trap intersection fully operation and temps permitting pumping out some snow (even if it's only been doing so for 10 minutes) on opening day.  Maximize the marketing bang for the buck of that 1 lovely yellow machine


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## mister moose (Oct 13, 2009)

drjeff said:


> I'd also be that from a marketing standpoint,  K would LOVE to have the Techno-Alpin at the Chute/Mouse Trap intersection fully operation and temps permitting pumping out some snow (even if it's only been doing so for 10 minutes) on opening day.  Maximize the marketing bang for the buck of that 1 lovely yellow machine



There were three of those lovely yellow machines in the KBL parking lot this weekend.


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## jerryg (Oct 13, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> BTW, this is not a marketing trick!



Trick or not, early season snowmaking and openings are always about marketing. You want to show that you are dedicated to the customer. As opposed to trying to make money with early tickets, a resort makes a great impression and people come back because they know they can depend on the product.


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## andyzee (Oct 13, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Forecast looks real nice!
> http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...6757812&site=btv&smap=1&marine=0&unit=0&lg=en




OK Spin, here's the story, I just reserved a hotel room, Friday into Sunday. Don't mess up my weekend!


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## Greg (Oct 13, 2009)

Recently posted on K's Facebook page:



> Snowmaking is underway for the 2009-10 season at Killington Resort. We started at 1 a.m. with a number of guns going on Reason in the Northridge area. By later this evening, we expect to have*more than 100 Low E Ratnik and HKD guns going on Rime and Upper Great Northern*.
> 
> Mother Nature also helped us out with 4 inches of new snow at Killington Peak and 1.5 inches at K-1 Lodge.
> 
> ...


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## millerm277 (Oct 13, 2009)

That seems to leave three possibilities.

1. Killington goes for it and hopes the snow holds until the 24th to refresh/expand.
2. Killington stockpiles and does basebuilding above the Snowdon Poma, waiting until the next system to go lower.
3. A mix, they blow just enough to get them through the weekend down low, and everything else goes to high elevation.


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2009)

andyzee said:


> If you're to believe present forecasts, conditions look good into Monday.



http://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Killington/6day/top

I don't know about that.   I see three nights where they can blow lower Bunny to get it open for Saturday morning.   Once they get to Saturday, the freezing level is up around the base of the Glades triple and it's humid.   I doubt they'd make more snow after Friday night unless it was something like upper Double Dipper or Downdraft Headwall.

As I said, the next 4 days will be interesting to watch.


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## Highway Star (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> http://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Killington/6day/top
> 
> I don't know about that. I see three nights where they can blow lower Bunny to get it open for Saturday morning. Once they get to Saturday, the freezing level is up around the base of the Glades triple and it's humid. I doubt they'd make more snow after Friday night unless it was something like upper Double Dipper or Downdraft Headwall.
> 
> As I said, the next 4 days will be interesting to watch.


 
Thanks for posting that - I think we'll see them setting guns down through snowdon today with snowmaking this afternoon!!!  Temps look good!


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## tcharron (Oct 14, 2009)

K looking purty.  Now, just a few more snow squals....


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## Geoff (Oct 14, 2009)

The longer term weather projections are all over the place.   There are storms coming up the coast and, depending on the storm track, Killington might stay mostly dry or it might get pissed on heavily.

http://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Killington/6day/top
Snow-forecast is saying Monday is heavy rain right to the top.   2" of precip.

The NWS looks way better:


> Sunday: A chance of rain and snow showers. Cloudy, with a high near 45. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
> 
> Sunday Night: A chance of rain and snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 28. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
> 
> ...



The NWS discussion is:


> .LONG TERM /FRIDAY NIGHT THROUGH TUESDAY/...
> AS OF 230 AM EDT WEDNESDAY...ANOTHER LOW CONFIDENCE EXTENDED
> FORECAST WITH *VERY LITTLE RUN TO RUN OR MODEL TO MODEL
> CONSISTENCY...NOTHING TO HANG YOUR HAT ON. *THE EXTENDED BEGINS
> ...



Weather.com 10-day is aligned with the NWS through Monday and is calling for 50's and showers next Wednesday/Thursday/Friday.

I imagine Killington pays some specialized weather service to give them a specific longer range forecast.   If I were making the call to turn on the guns on lower Bunny Buster tonight to get three overnight blows for a Saturday opening, I'm not sure what I'd do.   There's some chance it could all wash away if a Sunday/Monday coastal storm tracks inland instead of off Cape Cod.


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## mister moose (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I imagine Killington pays some specialized weather service to give them a specific longer range forecast.  ...There's some chance it could all wash away if a Sunday/Monday coastal storm tracks inland instead of off Cape Cod.



Even if Killington hires a "guru" weather forecaster, they aren't much ahead of what you just posted.  You can talk to the trainers, the jockeys and consult historical race results all you want, but it's still a horse race.

You pays yer money, and you takes yer chances.


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## Riverskier (Oct 14, 2009)

If Killington is really looking to redeem themselves with their core customers, it seems to me they really have no choice but to try and open this weekend. Besides, blowing snow in mid October there is always the risk, or almost likelihood of it washing away at some point. That said, base building this time of year without the intention of trying to open makes no financial sense at all.


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## dangah (Oct 14, 2009)

Guns still blazing at 11:30.

Some photos from earlier:












Will try and get up the mountain tomorrow morning for some shots.


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## Geoff (Oct 14, 2009)

bump

The Tom Horrocks hall of shame thread.


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## Mildcat (Oct 14, 2009)

dangah said:


>



That's an awesome shot.


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## BigK (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> bump
> 
> The Tom Horrocks hall of shame thread.



Lets just remember Tom doesn't make the snowmaking decisions......Relax Geoff


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## Geoff (Oct 14, 2009)

BigK said:


> Lets just remember Tom doesn't make the snowmaking decisions......Relax Geoff



Let's just remember that Tom Horrocks hyped cold temperatures and snowmaking for the last week.   I find the whole thing extremely dishonest and it merely reinforces my perception of these people as speakers of half-truths.


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## BigK (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Let's just remember that Tom Horrocks hyped cold temperatures and snowmaking for the last week.   I find the whole thing extremely dishonest and it merely reinforces my perception of these people as speakers of half-truths.



Forecasted temps have gone up. Also precip is now forecasted. Precip = higher humidity 
Low temps are not in the teens anylonger and doesn't support 24/7 snowmaking at kbl...


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## skiingsnow (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Let's just remember that Tom Horrocks hyped cold temperatures and snowmaking for the last week.   I find the whole thing extremely dishonest and it merely reinforces my perception of these people as speakers of half-truths.



It's cold and they are blowing a ton of snow!! No dishonesty or half-truths...

He said: 

"The short-term plan is to stockpile at the peak. We'll have to see if the forecast allows for snowmaking down Lower Bunny in this window. If not, looks like another good window for snowmaking temps begins on the 24th. Right now though, we're taking it day to day."

Sounds like he gave the truth the whole truth and nothing but... You said yourself yesterday "No huge deluge" , and then today you say it may rain 2".


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## millerm277 (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Let's just remember that Tom Horrocks hyped cold temperatures and snowmaking for the last week.   I find the whole thing extremely dishonest and it merely reinforces my perception of these people as speakers of half-truths.



Um, Tom was enthuiastic, but hasn't once said something untrue to date. We just took "We're going to make snow!", and ran with it, eventually morphing into a giant rumor-mill based on nothing really. There has not been a single statement from Killington stating ANYTHING to the effect of "We're going to open this week!", or even "Our goal is opening this week".


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## jerryg (Oct 14, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Um, Tom was enthuiastic, but hasn't once said something untrue to date. We just took "We're going to make snow!", and ran with it, eventually morphing into a giant rumor-mill based on nothing really. There has not been a single statement from Killington stating ANYTHING to the effect of "We're going to open this week!", or even "Our goal is opening this week".



This seems to be the case. It's like people read one of the half-dozen threads about snowmaking/first to open, read the rumor that K and SR were battling for first opening, and created the story that this was K's intent. I'm not trying to argue with Geoff or anyone else, but the only thing I've read on AZ about K's plans are that they are making snow and plan to open as soon as possible.


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## BigK (Oct 14, 2009)

They WERE trying for this weekend...Things change and they are making the right decision here. Keep pounding the upper mountain, so when the temps arrive to blow down to K1 they can open extremely fast.


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## Geoff (Oct 14, 2009)

BigK said:


> They WERE trying for this weekend...Things change and they are making the right decision here. Keep pounding the upper mountain, so when the temps arrive to blow down to K1 they can open extremely fast.



My point is that Tom Horrocks spammed this forum with hype about cold weather and blowing snow for a week.   When given the opportunity, he never shared the criteria for opening the mountain.   Instead, he just kept twittering on about snowmaking and cold temperatures.   When Steve Wright had the job, we would have gotten straight talk about what was and wasn't possible.   

It's 28F with low humidity at 2000 feet.   Killington could have made snow to the bottom and opted out.   Sunday River didn't.   In my opinion, the whole "Beast of the East" thing is a pile of crap.   This is POWDR business as usual.   Little wonder skier visits are in the shitter.  These guys have done nothing but chase the Boston market to Boyne.  The one thing I know for sure is that I'll still be around long after these guys are punted out of here for poor performance.   You can't argue the facts.   Traffic counts are way off on the Access Road.   Sales, Meals, and Lodging are way off in the town of Killington since these guys showed up.   This is all on the public record in on the State of Vermont Dept of Transportation and Dept of Taxes web pages.   With the decline in business levels, real estate values have collapsed.   That "partner" SP Land with all the Texas oil money ain't gonna be happy.


I'm done with my rant now.


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## andyzee (Oct 14, 2009)

jerryg said:


> This seems to be the case. It's like people read one of the half-dozen threads about snowmaking/first to open, read the rumor that K and SR were battling for first opening, and created the story that this was K's intent. I'm not trying to argue with Geoff or anyone else, but the only thing I've read on AZ about K's plans are that they are making snow and plan to open as soon as possible.




Tom said the Beast is Back. The Beast would not have allowed someone else to open first.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 14, 2009)

BigK said:


> They WERE trying for this weekend...Things change and they are making the right decision here. Keep pounding the upper mountain, so when the temps arrive to blow down to K1 they can open extremely fast.



right decision how?

They opened, people would ski.  See their neighbor in Maine.  

If you prefaced your statement with 'economic', I could see that.  Reality is that given the weather and their equipment, they could open this weekend if they wanted to.


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## Newpylong (Oct 14, 2009)

I do not buy the claim that opening by this weekend is not possible. As others have said, the "Beast" would not have allowed a second place finish for this race.


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## Geoff (Oct 14, 2009)

My techie joke of the day:

I hear Killington changed their software system for issuing tickets and reservations.   It must run on Eunuchs.


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## jerryg (Oct 14, 2009)

I do understand the point presented by the fans of the resort formally known as The Beast. It would appear that the new marketing scheme rebrands K as the Beast being back and in that light, an all out October snowmaking assault would be logical, but then again, so would skiing  till all the snow is gone... In June. I suppose they're 0 for 1 in that regard.


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## Greg (Oct 14, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I'm done with my rant now.



This is the most ludicrous thing I've read in this entire thread. :lol:

:razz:


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## SkiDork (Oct 15, 2009)

oh no, skippy is posting here now?????


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## tcharron (Oct 15, 2009)

One has to wonder, if this competition was lost due to cannon versus gun.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> My point is that Tom Horrocks spammed this forum with hype about cold weather and blowing snow for a week. When given the opportunity, he never shared the criteria for opening the mountain. Instead, he just kept twittering on about snowmaking and cold temperatures. When Steve Wright had the job, we would have gotten straight talk about what was and wasn't possible.
> 
> It's 28F with low humidity at 2000 feet. Killington could have made snow to the bottom and opted out. Sunday River didn't. In my opinion, the whole "Beast of the East" thing is a pile of crap. This is POWDR business as usual. Little wonder skier visits are in the shitter. These guys have done nothing but chase the Boston market to Boyne. The one thing I know for sure is that I'll still be around long after these guys are punted out of here for poor performance. You can't argue the facts. Traffic counts are way off on the Access Road. Sales, Meals, and Lodging are way off in the town of Killington since these guys showed up. This is all on the public record in on the State of Vermont Dept of Transportation and Dept of Taxes web pages. With the decline in business levels, real estate values have collapsed. That "partner" SP Land with all the Texas oil money ain't gonna be happy.
> 
> ...


 
The Beast Of The East cannot be defeated,
The Beast can only defeat itself.


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## SpinmasterK (Oct 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> bump
> 
> The Tom Horrocks hall of shame thread.



Geoff, why all the negativity towards me?  if you have specific questions, ask! Feel free to pick up the phone and call me on my cell 802-770-8985 or email
me at thorrocks@Killington.com


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Geoff, why all the negativity towards me? if you have specific questions, ask! Feel free to pick up the phone and call me on my cell 802-770-8985 or email
> me at thorrocks@Killington.com


 
Geoof, you hurt his feelings!!!


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## mister moose (Oct 15, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Geoff, why all the negativity towards me?  if you have specific questions, ask! Feel free to pick up the phone and call me on my cell 802-770-8985 or email
> me at thorrocks@Killington.com



Tom, obviously I'm not Geoff, and someday I wouldn't mind a phone call or a beer.  But right now, the two events of Killington proclaiming the Beast is back, and then not even trying this week in the low temps just seems too contradictory to me.  I have no questions for you to answer at the moment.

'The Beast of the East' is an old slogan that carries power, prestige, and intent.  It was first to open and last to close.  You might open second (or third, or fourth...) on "quality terrain" and "open and stay open"  but you will still not be first.  That is not beastly.

Lastly, if you can't open top to bottom fast enough on the current glades/Great Northern plan, and you aren't willing to blow Skyeburst or Superstar first, then consider spending a few cents on a platform to load the Snowdon Triple at the old mid station.  Blow upper Bunny Buster or upper mouse Run, and a path on Conclusion to the platform.  Download to the extent possible on the triple, limit ticket sales if necessary, and give a big up yours to Sunday River next year.  That would be Beastly.  It would show passion and enthusiasm Killington used to be known for.

The NOAA forecast at 3100 feet is now

Tonight  23
Friday night  15
Saturday night  21
Sunday night  24
Monday night 25
Tuesday night 29


Tick tick tick.


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## Geoff (Oct 15, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Geoff, why all the negativity towards me?  if you have specific questions, ask! Feel free to pick up the phone and call me on my cell 802-770-8985 or email
> me at thorrocks@Killington.com



The negativity is all about a Killington marketing person spamming the internet.   With the in-your-face "Beast of the East" marketing slogan, the natural assumption is that Killington was returning to the Preston Smith model and all the superlatives that go along with it.... first to open, last to close, blow snow on anything you can drag a hose to (including Devils Fiddle), make snow until you suck the snowmaking ponds dry (no longer possible post-Woodward Reservoir project), biggest party, most lifts, most acres, most trails, most vertical in New England, ...

I looked at the weather just like everybody else this week.   The models were all over the place on storm tracks.  It looked iffy to blow lower Bunny and not have it melt on Monday.   Killington could have done it and opened for a couple of days but it probably would have melted after the weekend and the weekend weather looked pretty crappy.   If I were making the call, I would have kept my snowmaking budget in my pocket.   In my opinion, you should have come out and said that.   That's how you build credibility.   Instead, you allowed the rumor mill to create the false perception that you were going to open.   Your job is to *communicate*, not create false expectations.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

mister moose said:


> then consider spending a few cents on a platform to load the Snowdon Triple at the old mid station. Blow upper Bunny Buster or upper mouse Run, and a path on Conclusion to the platform. Download to the extent possible on the triple, limit ticket sales if necessary, and give a big up yours to Sunday River next year. That would be Beastly. It would show passion and enthusiasm Killington used to be known for.


 
Not.
Going.
To.
Happen.


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## roark (Oct 15, 2009)

I just like that Tom's email is Thor Rocks.


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## millerm277 (Oct 15, 2009)

I'll cut you a break, considering it IS october 15th, no one here, including me, expected we would be arguing about if ANYONE in the east should be opened or not today, and I can somewhat understand not having everything (like fan gun installs) done by this point.

However, if you had no thought of ever going to the bottom this week, you should have just been direct with everyone. "We are NOT opening this week most likely, but we are blowing snow up high so we can open more quickly on the next cold snap." That would have probably earned you praise. Hell, if you even maybe included a reason (We open on Bunny Buster, we're still installing the fan gun there, so we can't blow snow yet), there probably wouldn't have been anyone really bitching.


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> a Killington marketing person *spamming *the internet.



I think the "spamming" comment is a tad harsh. It's that kind of attack that drove Tom away from posting on K-zone. And I've seen a lot of K-zoners say they wish he still posted there. Do you really blame him? Personally, I appreciate the updates he posts here and the follow-ups to some of the comments.

Should you be critical? Hell yeah!

I spoke with Tom on the phone this week and I know the folks up at Killington value the criticism and suggestions. Just do it with some level of class and civility.


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## Vortex (Oct 15, 2009)

mister moose said:


> Tom, obviously I'm not Geoff, and someday I wouldn't mind a phone call or a beer.  But right now, the two events of Killington proclaiming the Beast is back, and then not even trying this week in the low temps just seems too contradictory to me.  I have no questions for you to answer at the moment.
> 
> 'The Beast of the East' is an old slogan that carries power, prestige, and intent.  It was first to open and last to close.  You might open second (or third, or fourth...) on "quality terrain" and "open and stay open"  but you will still not be first.  That is not beastly.
> 
> ...



This was a very  good post.  I grew up with K just being far above anyone in prestige.  I did the travel shows and the K team had a swagger and they tallked the talk and  walked the walk.


I know thigns change, but the up yours is really what SR did to K.

As far as Tom.  I still think he is top notch.  I see them opening in October, I just don't think they were prepared to open this early and Sunday River was.  nothign to do with Tom.  If Sunday River opened around Oct 30 and K did the dame thing.  The conversation would be different. Just my take


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## millerm277 (Oct 15, 2009)

> Lastly, if you can't open top to bottom fast enough on the current glades/Great Northern plan, and you aren't willing to blow Skyeburst or Superstar first, then consider spending a few cents on a platform to load the Snowdon Triple at the old mid station. Blow upper Bunny Buster or upper mouse Run, and a path on Conclusion to the platform. Download to the extent possible on the triple, limit ticket sales if necessary, and give a big up yours to Sunday River next year. That would be Beastly. It would show passion and enthusiasm Killington used to be known for.



Actually, that's the best and most realistic suggestion I've heard so far. It even used to have a midstation, so that would be possible....brilliant! A much shorter route to make snow on, still at a decent elevation (and not getting a ton of sun like KBL)...sounds like a winner to me. One lift,  and you have skiing. Easy terrain and lift expansion opportunities as necessary on the opening weekend...


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## RENO (Oct 15, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> I'll cut you a break, considering it IS october 15th, no one here, including me, expected we would be arguing about if ANYONE in the east should be opened or not today, and I can somewhat understand not having everything (like fan gun installs) done by this point.
> 
> However, if you had no thought of ever going to the bottom this week, you should have just been direct with everyone. "We are NOT opening this week most likely, but we are blowing snow up high so we can open more quickly on the next cold snap." That would have probably earned you praise. Hell, if you even maybe included a reason (We open on Bunny Buster, we're still installing the fan gun there, so we can't blow snow yet),* there probably wouldn't have been anyone really bitching*.


Right!  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> I'll cut you a break, considering it IS october 15th, no one here, including me, expected we would be arguing about if ANYONE in the east should be opened or not today, and I can somewhat understand not having everything (like fan gun installs) done by this point.
> 
> However, if you had no thought of ever going to the bottom this week, you should have just been direct with everyone. "We are NOT opening this week most likely, but we are blowing snow up high so we can open more quickly on the next cold snap." That would have probably earned you praise. Hell, if you even maybe included a reason (We open on Bunny Buster, we're still installing the fan gun there, so we can't blow snow yet), there probably wouldn't have been anyone really bitching.


 
The problem here is that they squandered a chance to open early, when they certainly could have done it.  

Would they have stayed open?  Again that's up for debate, but probably not.

*When will they open?  I am not at all confident they will open in October, or even by mid November.  The ultimate irony is that they could certainly be prevented from opening until after thanksgiving.  There's nothing to say that we'll continue to get cool weather for the next month or so.......*


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> *When will they open?  I am not at all confident they will open in October, or even by mid November.  The ultimate irony is that they could certainly be prevented from opening until after thanksgiving.  There's nothing to say that we'll continue to get cool weather for the next month or so.......*



Excellent point and exactly why I will be skiing SR this Saturday. These days, I typically don't get out until at least Veteran's Day weekend, most years later.  But, knowing that it could very well be a month before I get to go again due to a busy work schedule and fickle New England weather, I'm psyched to go on Saturday even for WROD.

I know I skied Killington in October with a download before, not sure if it was as early as 10/17, though I know they've opened earlier than that.


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## Geoff (Oct 15, 2009)

millerm277 said:


> Actually, that's the best and most realistic suggestion I've heard so far. It even used to have a midstation, so that would be possible....brilliant! A much shorter route to make snow on, still at a decent elevation (and not getting a ton of sun like KBL)...sounds like a winner to me. One lift,  and you have skiing. Easy terrain and lift expansion opportunities as necessary on the opening weekend...



This is the Snowdon Cripple we're talking about.   The lift is ancient and probably at the end of its service life.   To download on it, you need brakes that can handle the load.   Like the Canyon Quad in the pickup truck days, it would probably have to be run at a crawl and you could only load every 2nd or 3rd chair.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Excellent point and exactly why I will be skiing SR this Saturday. These days, I typically don't get out until at least Veteran's Day weekend, most years later. But, knowing that it could very well be a month before I get to go again due to a busy work schedule and fickle New England weather, I'm psyched to go on Saturday even for WROD.
> 
> I know I skied Killington in October with a download before, not sure if it was as early as 10/17, though I know they've opened earlier than that.


 
That's the reason we'll probably have to hit SR too.....


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## mister moose (Oct 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> This is the Snowdon Cripple we're talking about.   The lift is ancient and probably at the end of its service life.   To download on it, you need brakes that can handle the load.   Like the Canyon Quad in the pickup truck days, it would probably have to be run at a crawl and you could only load every 2nd or 3rd chair.



That's why I said limit ticket sales if necessary.  Opening early is about a statement, not volume.  Until Killington spends megabucks on a solid early opening infrastructure, they either have to give up the title or go with a smaller opening.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

mister moose said:


> That's why I said limit ticket sales if necessary. Opening early is about a statement, not volume. Until Killington spends megabucks on a solid early opening infrastructure, they either have to give up the title or go with a smaller opening.


 
Trying to do up/down loading on snowdon is just kinda silly/dumb.

You'd be better off installing a 400ft poma or t-bar on upper downdraft.....seriously.


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## Geoff (Oct 15, 2009)

mister moose said:


> That's why I said limit ticket sales if necessary.  Opening early is about a statement, not volume.  Until Killington spends megabucks on a solid early opening infrastructure, they either have to give up the title or go with a smaller opening.



That would probably be worse than not opening at all.   I wasn't around for it but apparently from what I've read, when Preston Smith first blew Snowshed early as a publicity stunt 45 years ago, the entire world showed up to ski.   If people are driving 5 hours to ski, they'd be awfully pissed off to be turned away at the ticket window.   Early season exists to market the resort.   It's long-term profit, not short-term profit.   Anybody you turn away is going to take 10 people with them who never ski Killington again.


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> You'd be better off installing a 400ft poma or t-bar on upper downdraft.....seriously.



You keep talking about this poma on Downdraft. Do you really think that's viable? That's a pretty steep headwall. I think you'd have newbs wiping out all over the place on that one.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

Greg said:


> You keep talking about this poma on Downdraft. Do you really think that's viable? That's a pretty steep headwall. I think you'd have newbs wiping out all over the place on that one.


 
Upper Downdraft isn't all that steep.  Pomas have been installed on much worse.  They just need a track for it along the lookers right side, from the intersection with high traverse, up to the top of the trail.


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Upper Downdraft isn't all that steep.  Pomas have been installed on much worse.  They just need a track for it along the lookers right side, from the intersection with high traverse, up to the top of the trail.



It's pretty steep. Where else in the Northeast do they have a surface lift that steep? I could definitely see Buffy or Princess getting scared or tired and falling off the freakin' thing.


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## skiadikt (Oct 15, 2009)

attacks on tom are unwarranted. nowhere did he say they'd open this weekend. he did what any pr guy would do and got some stoke out there about recent snow & snowmaking. i never felt led on. understandably people's expectations got amped out of proportion with proclamations that "beast" is back fueling the flames. 

unfortunately the big problem at k lies in the current lift config and trail rollout. for all those years k had the advantage due to the fact that they could blow a minimal amount of snow and open in early october. tables have turned with advantage sunday river. i'm not sure that even pres smith would have opted to open this week given the forecast. it's one thing to have upper cascade melt out, another to have the current route melt out.


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## mister moose (Oct 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> That would probably be worse than not opening at all.   I wasn't around for it but apparently from what I've read, when Preston Smith first blew Snowshed early as a publicity stunt 45 years ago, the entire world showed up to ski.   If people are driving 5 hours to ski, they'd be awfully pissed off to be turned away at the ticket window.   Early season exists to market the resort.   It's long-term profit, not short-term profit.   Anybody you turn away is going to take 10 people with them who never ski Killington again.



It would be very easy to conduct a lottery or registration for tickets on line so no one would drive up and be disappointed.  I see nothing wrong with demand exceeding supply such that the privilege of skiing early is limited to those lucky enough to sign up early, and a few standby positions given away the day of.  (pass holders wouldn't pay, but would still need to get a lottery number)  Lift lines are sometimes a fact of life, and ski areas seem willing to allow long lines rather than limit ticket sales. There might not even be the need to limit tickets, as we know 'the whole world' doesn't show up early season, but by registering in advance, the resort would know what to expect.  

The main points are this - 

Show a passion and a commitment to the sport, and be the first again.
Communicate effectively what you have to offer so there will be no disappointments upon arrival.

Sugarbush communicated that there would be some walking and some mud on their last 2days last May.  No one that showed up complained.

If they told us a long download wait might be encountered, we'd know that going in.

Would you be ok with a half hour wait to download on a slow lift at 4pm this Saturday if it meant you could ski?   Thought so.


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## millerm277 (Oct 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> This is the Snowdon Cripple we're talking about.   The lift is ancient and probably at the end of its service life.   To download on it, you need brakes that can handle the load.   Like the Canyon Quad in the pickup truck days, it would probably have to be run at a crawl and you could only load every 2nd or 3rd chair.



I believe it is rated at 20% download. As a thought...WITH the current lift setup: Run the Poma, skip the midstation, use the Quad to get people to the summit and download from the summit. Hell, the quad's slow enough anyway. There you go, now you can compete with SR. Two lifts, just like them. Yes, the Poma line will require a bit of work to get the snow under, but it's not that bad.



Greg said:


> It's pretty steep. Where else in the Northeast do they have a surface lift that steep? I could definitely see Buffy or Princess getting scared or tired and falling off the freakin' thing.



The former Summit Poma at Pico was definitely as steep, and really....this would be one hell of a short ride. With HS's numbers, you're talking <1 minute.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

> *Pounding the upper mountain with snowmaking*
> 
> *We continue to see very good snowmaking production on the upper mountain areas. As of 6:30 a.m. the wetbulb temperature was 18 degrees at the peak and 19 at the bottom of the Northridge area. *
> We have more than 100 HKD and Ratnik low energy guns going on Rime, Reason, Upper Double Dipper and Great Northern.
> ...


 
*And you're telling me it wasn't cold enough to make snow down to the bottom!?!?!?!?!?*


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

Greg said:


> It's pretty steep.


 
Maybe compared to Ski Sundown.


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## Highway Star (Oct 15, 2009)

*Killington =/= Beast Of East.   Killington = Fail.*

http://insider.killington.com/



> October 15, 2009
> 
> *Pounding the upper mountain with snowmaking*
> 
> ...


 
*And you're telling me it wasn't cold enough to make snow down to the bottom!?!?!?!?!?*


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2009)

Highway Gnar - we don't need *another *thread..... :roll:


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Maybe compared to Ski Sundown.



I think you might be right.


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## bigbob (Oct 15, 2009)

Greg said:


> You keep talking about this poma on Downdraft. Do you really think that's viable? That's a pretty steep headwall. I think you'd have newbs wiping out all over the place on that one.



 Did you ever ride the Cannon Mnt t bar???? That was steep!


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## Greg (Oct 15, 2009)

bigbob said:


> Did you ever ride the Cannon Mnt t bar???? That was steep!



I haven't. Is it still operational?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2009)

Greg said:


> I haven't. Is it still operational?



no   took the double t out when they put in cannonball express and made the disaterous decision of the wide profile trail.  I rode it a couple of times as a kid.  I would love it if it were still there today, but I recall it being very steep and intimidating as a youngster.


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## Greg (Oct 16, 2009)

Looks rather Beastly... :lol:


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## drjeff (Oct 16, 2009)

This has the potential to be one ugly weekend at K.  Rabid fans of K who are disappointed with the non opening.  Big piles of snow up high.  I'm sensing a return of reports of the "no hiking" police will be surfaces tommorow.


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## RENO (Oct 16, 2009)

Looking good! Stockpiling that white stuff. 
Can't wait till they open (with more than a 50 ft jib park or 200 vert 1/2 trail! :lol


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## tcharron (Oct 16, 2009)

drjeff said:


> This has the potential to be one ugly weekend at K.  Rabid fans of K who are disappointed with the non opening.  Big piles of snow up high.  I'm sensing a return of reports of the "no hiking" police will be surfaces tommorow.



Part of me really hopes so.  On the other hand, part of me really hopes that people show up, and are hiking up with no signs.

Even better, the whole concept of not just letting people pay to ski will end up going away.  If it's being used for stockpiling anyway, they intend on pushing it all up into piles anyway.


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## tcharron (Oct 16, 2009)

RENO said:


> Looking good! Stockpiling that white stuff.
> Can't wait till they open (with more than a 50 ft jib park or 200 vert 1/2 trail! :lol



Err, Sundary River is open with a half a mile long trail.


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## RENO (Oct 16, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Err, Sundary River is open with a half a mile long trail.



OK, 300 ft vert! :lol:


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## mondeo (Oct 16, 2009)

So it looks like through Tuesday there's decent night conditions down to around 3000 feet, then marginal after that (with probably minimal melt.) Just base building on Rime, Reason, (and apparently upper Dipper) still, or is there going to be a push to get a decent amount of runs covered so when they get the weather at the base it'll be a big opening?


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## millerm277 (Oct 16, 2009)

mondeo said:


> So it looks like through Tuesday there's decent night conditions down to around 3000 feet, then marginal after that (with probably minimal melt.) Just base building on Rime, Reason, (and apparently upper Dipper) still, or is there going to be a push to get a decent amount of runs covered so when they get the weather at the base it'll be a big opening?



Okay, all indications lean toward this for opening day:

Rime, East Glade/Reason, Upper GN, Upper Double Dipper all open up high. They'll usually drop a couple guns on either Cascade or Downdraft Headwall, and open it for or around opening day . Powerline's a possibility as well, since given it's width, it doesn't take much snow to open.

Then everything will go into GN, and Mouse Trap, followed with all the traffic heading into the WROD of Lower Bunny Buster. That's opening day for you.

The next couple to open after that will probably be: Chute, Upper Bunny Buster, the 4 beginner stubs on Snowdon, and Lower East Fall.

As for their plan:

Looks like they're hammering everything from the Glades Triple base and up at the moment, so no more snowmaking should be needed there at the next cold spell.

They'll fire up as many guns as they possibly can on Mouse Trap, Great Northern (snowdon section), and Lower Bunny Buster, along with the new fan gun at the Mouse Trap/Chute/GN/Bunny Buster intersection, and then they'll open.


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## drjeff (Oct 17, 2009)

RENO said:


> OK, 300 ft vert! :lol:



300 more verts than K is offering right now   Don't bash the folks that went for it, simply because your guys chose not to!  Since we all know that if K REALLY wanted to string together a high elevation set up to compete for the 1st to open title they could! Given that there's been enough snow made in Southern VT to open up a small lift served park at an elevation that is BELOW KBL, right now, one does have to question what percentage of the old "Beast of The East" the new K will be??


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## Newpylong (Oct 17, 2009)

RENO said:


> Looking good! Stockpiling that white stuff.
> Can't wait till they open (with more than a 50 ft jib park or 200 vert 1/2 trail! :lol



You got the length, but half short on the vert. Upper T2 is roughly 500.


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## bigbob (Oct 17, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> You got the length, but half short on the vert. Upper T2 is roughly 500.



 A lot of mid atlantic ski areas have only 600' of vertical total!!


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## andyzee (Oct 17, 2009)

Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?


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## Geoff (Oct 17, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?



So I presume you weren't around when Preston Smith blew upper Cascade every year in October?   It's a formula that has been proven to work.  I applaud Sunday River for copying it.   If you look at the erosion of Killington's market share in the metro-Boston market, Sunday River seems to be making the right moves.


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## andyzee (Oct 17, 2009)

Geoff said:


> So I presume you weren't around when Preston Smith blew upper Cascade every year in October?   It's a formula that has been proven to work.  I applaud Sunday River for copying it.   If you look at the erosion of Killington's market share in the metro-Boston market, Sunday River seems to be making the right moves.




No I wasn't, but I don't see the relevance here. I see, a mountain making a ton of noise over a little strip of snow that they open for a few days, That is what I see. If I way  around during the Preston Smith day, I would still see the same thing.

Now question for you, where do you draw the line on what is an opening. Was Woodbury's open for real? If I blow snow in my back yard and invite you to ski it for $10, can we consider that an opening? Not being a wise guy, just seriously want to know where you would draw the line?


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## snoseek (Oct 17, 2009)

andyzee said:


> No I wasn't, but I don't see the relevance here. I see, a mountain making a ton of noise over a little strip of snow that they open for a few days, That is what I see. If I way  around during the Preston Smith day, I would still see the same thing.
> 
> Now question for you, where do you draw the line on what is an opening. Was Woodbury's open for real? If I blow snow in my back yard and invite you to ski it for $10, can we consider that an opening? Not being a wise guy, just seriously want to know where you would draw the line?



T-2 to lower punch is 1600 vertical feet, bigger vert than anything in Colorado right now. 25 dollars to ski that is a plain steal.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 17, 2009)

snoseek said:


> T-2 to lower punch is 1600 vertical feet, bigger vert than anything in Colorado right now. 25 dollars to ski that is a plain steal.



I thought so.  PUNCH was WROF - white ribbon of fun.  T2 was edge to edge coverage, minor bare spots between bumps, but overall a pretty deep base.  It was definitely icy, but that's the deal with the freezing and thawing and high water content of base building snow.

Whatever their reasoning for opening, part of it has to be SR wanting to provide skiing for those who would love it.  The Barker lot was full; not sure how many skiers that means, but it certainly was more than a couple hundred.


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## andyzee (Oct 17, 2009)

snoseek said:


> T-2 to lower punch is 1600 vertical feet, bigger vert than anything in Colorado right now. 25 dollars to ski that is a plain steal.



Are you saying that T2 was not the only trail open?


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## snoseek (Oct 17, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Are you saying that T2 was not the only trail open?



they opened lower punch to the bottom.

Going by TR's, I'm over 1500 miles away!


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## deadheadskier (Oct 17, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Are you saying that T2 was not the only trail open?



they dropped the rope on Sunday Punch for the afternoon.  The full vertical of Locke was open this afternoon. T2 is an upper mountain trail that goes to the mid station.  Punch goes to the base from there.

As mountains inflate trail totals, technically they could have said they had T2, Sunday Punch and Lower Sunday Punch open.  I'd expect the coverage to be quite decent down low after tonight's snow making.


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## andyzee (Oct 17, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> they dropped the rope on Sunday Punch for the afternoon.  The full vertical of Locke was open this afternoon. T2 is an upper mountain trail that goes to the mid station.  Punch goes to the base from there.
> 
> As mountains inflate trail totals, technically they could have said they had T2, Sunday Punch and Lower Sunday Punch open.  I'd expect the coverage to be quite decent down low after tonight's snow making.



OK, that I could consider an opening. Their site is still saying only T2


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## Mildcat (Oct 17, 2009)

According to Sr's site, Locke is 1460' of vert. Andy, have you ever skied SR because saying it isn't an opening if it's just T2 makes zero sense. Even before they opened Lower Sunday Punch I was lapping T2 and having a blast. It seemed plenty open to me. And for people calling it a "White Ribbon" or a "Little Strip" have no clue of what they're talking about. Look at the pics and you'll see pretty good coverage, Especially for *OCT 17*.


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## bigbob (Oct 17, 2009)

Maybe the naysayers should get there butts up to SR and try it before they flame them!


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## AndyEich (Oct 17, 2009)

The red line is from the SR's Locke midstation to the summit station:





Thus, T2 is about 575' vertical.
________
Capris cam


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## andyzee (Oct 17, 2009)

I have skied Sunday River once, so I"m no expert on it. Nice mountain really  liked it and not knocking it, so please don't think that. Since I only skied it once, I'm far from and expert on the mountain and in fact had to take a look at their map to see where T2 is located, I considered going up until I saw what was open. That is what leads me to ask what can you consider a real opening? Since I didn't know what T2 was or where it was located I looked at their map, and when I saw it, I was amazed. If you look at my picture, you'll see that Killington easily had enough snow on the North Ridge area to open not one but three trails with as much vertical. Guess they figure the hillbilly days are over and not worth the trouble. At the same time plenty of other mountains, I'm sure could have done the same


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## drjeff (Oct 17, 2009)

andyzee said:


> I have skied Sunday River once, so I"m no expert on it. Nice mountain really  liked it and not knocking it, so please don't think that. Since I only skied it once, I'm far from and expert on the mountain and in fact had to take a look at their map to see where T2 is located, I considered going up until I saw what was open. That is what leads me to ask what can you consider a real opening? Since I didn't know what T2 was or where it was located I looked at their map, and when I saw it, I was amazed.



Andy, if K was open today with say just Rime, would you consider it being open??  Your answer to that question would be your answer to your "real opening" question IMHO

Plus, I know back in the pre-K1 days, K DEFINATELY considered themselves open as soon as Upper Cascade opened from the mid station


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## speden (Oct 17, 2009)

Noticed some Sunday River vids on youtube from today.  Looks like they made some pretty good snow out there.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 17, 2009)

by reverse logic, would a mountain offering skiing with downloading in the spring really be closed?  :razz:

Most years I'm content to wait until mid-November to get out there.  The Jones wasn't particularly worse this year than normal.  I'll admit my effort was based on the novelty of it being mid-October and I had nothing better to do today.  Glad I went though.  It was damn fun for what it was and a heckuva deal at $25.

Talked with treeskier on the lift today about how Sugarbush could easily be the king of fall and spring with their Summit chair on North.


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## jerryg (Oct 17, 2009)

Sunday River was open top to bottom today, but because they had been making snow into the morning and didn't know how the snow would settle on Sunday Punch, they only announced once trail. T2 was wall to wall and the coverage was better than on Halloween last year. It was pretty crowded but not too bad. There was one guy there from Virginia who had traveled 14 hours. There a lot of Vermont plates in the lot as well.

It was a lot of fun and if the rolls had been reversed, I'd have driven to K. It's not about anything but being able to make turns. Try it before you hate and then get over it.


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## Mildcat (Oct 17, 2009)

andyzee said:


> I have skied Sunday River once, so I"m no expert on it. Nice mountain really  liked it and not knocking it, so please don't think that. Since I only skied it once, I'm far from and expert on the mountain and in fact had to take a look at their map to see where T2 is located, I considered going up until I saw what was open. That is what leads me to ask what can you consider a real opening? Since I didn't know what T2 was or where it was located I looked at their map, and when I saw it, I was amazed. If you look at my picture, you'll see that Killington easily had enough snow on the North Ridge area to open not one but three trails with as much vertical. Guess they figure the hillbilly days are over and not worth the trouble. At the same time plenty of other mountains, I'm sure could have done the same



I realized you weren't knocking it and I don't blame you one bit for not making the trek up. If I couldn't have day tripped it I wouldn't have gone either. But to me if the lifts are running and customers are skiing then it's open. I had as much fun as I had the closing weekend at Sugarloaf last May and the Loaf had 3 trails open. My second comment wasn't directed at you but the people calling it WROD. The coverage is really good.


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## andyzee (Oct 17, 2009)

OK,, my point, what do you consider an opening. The following are two videos, obviously I'm being sarcastic, but it to prove a point. Going by some of the comments I've seen, first video has snow, has a slope, has a bunch of kids having fun. One thing missing is a lift, so second video will give you that. Now my point, where do you draw the line, with these, you could consider them opening, perhaps the only thing missing is a charge, but then we don't know  that either of these  didn't charge. Sunday River is a great mountain, don't want to take anything away from the mountain, just from the PR dept.


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## drjeff (Oct 18, 2009)

Lift spinning + downhill snow sliding + need of a lift ticket = open in my book


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## WJenness (Oct 18, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Lift spinning + downhill snow sliding + need of a lift ticket = open in my book



+1.

Heading up to SR to get my fix in a few hours.

REALLY psyched they got top to bottom open today.

-w


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## bigbob (Oct 18, 2009)

Andyzee, I just think you are jealous of the people who got to ski and I was one of them on Friday. Your trail map is not fully correct, the midstation is below where your circle ends. I
 It was more vert than Killington use to offer from the old Killington double midstation , which if I remember correctly, Pres sometimes did not make snow to the top so some walking was required. 
 As for the guy in Virgina, 14 hours of driving is twice the distance you would of had to drive!!


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## andyzee (Oct 18, 2009)

bigbob said:


> Andyzee, I just think you are jealous of the people who got to ski and I was one of them on Friday. Your trail map is not fully correct, the midstation is below where your circle ends. I
> It was more vert than Killington use to offer from the old Killington double midstation , which if I remember correctly, Pres sometimes did not make snow to the top so some walking was required.
> As for the guy in Virgina, 14 hours of driving is twice the distance you would of had to drive!!




Glad you and everyone else had a great time and yes sitting here in Rutland with skis and no snow, I am very jealous. But really after hiking up Killington yesterday seeing all the snow they have up top, but not at the bottom, and not opening becuase they didn't have snow at the bottom, just got me thinking as to what constitutes an opening.


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## speden (Oct 18, 2009)

I don't understand Killington's approach to snowmaking.  What's the point of only making snow up high when you have no way to get skiers up there to use it?  Apparently they are "stockpiling" it, but with modern snow guns that can crank out huge quantities of snow in a short amount of time, I don't see why it is necessary to stockpile it.

Isn't the trend in modern snow making to have fixed guns and blow trails top to bottom when you are ready to open them?  Kind of like "just in time" manufacturing, you don't make the product until you're ready to sell it to someone.  Keeping inventory is old fashioned and expensive.

When I see photos of snowmaking at Killington, they always seem to have people physically setting up those portable snow guns with hoses rather than having fixed guns that can just be activated remotely by computer.  That looks slow and labor intensive, as well as inefficient.

Also I wonder if they have a capacity problem with their snowmaking such that they cannot blow the top and bottom of their early season trails simultaneously, but need to do it in stages.  That's the only reason I can think of for them to stockpile useless snow in mid October.  Clearly Sunday River demonstrated that this small window of cold weather was sufficient to open a top to bottom trail with modern snowmaking, yet for some reason Killington was not prepared to do the same.

It seems to me if a mountain wants to take advantage of these early season cold snaps, then it should set up their early season terrain with built in guns that can blow those trails top to bottom simultaneously at the press of a button.  Then just a couple nights of cold temps, and you're open.


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## mondeo (Oct 18, 2009)

speden said:


> I don't understand Killington's approach to snowmaking.  What's the point of only making snow up high when you have no way to get skiers up there to use it?  Apparently they are "stockpiling" it, but with modern snow guns that can crank out huge quantities of snow in a short amount of time, I don't see why it is necessary to stockpile it.


Nobody can blow their entire mountain at once, by building up their opening terrain up top they'll be able to expand much quicker when they do open. Pretty simple, actually.


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## speden (Oct 18, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Nobody can blow their entire mountain at once, by building up their opening terrain up top they'll be able to expand much quicker when they do open. Pretty simple, actually.



I didn't mean the entire mountain.  I was talking about a single top to bottom trail for the early season.


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## mondeo (Oct 18, 2009)

speden said:


> I didn't mean the entire mountain.  I was talking about a single top to bottom trail for the early season.


I know. But this way when they are able to blow the lower mountain, they'll probably have 5 trails open up top, and can expand to either the Canyon or Snowdon basically immediately. You know, open more than the hated WROD.


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## tcharron (Oct 18, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I know. But this way when they are able to blow the lower mountain, they'll probably have 5 trails open up top, and can expand to either the Canyon or Snowdon basically immediately. You know, open more than the hated WROD.



Opening in November with 5 trails would be MIGHTY sad.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 18, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I know. But this way when they are able to blow the lower mountain, they'll probably have 5 trails open up top, and can expand to either the Canyon or Snowdon basically immediately. You know, open more than the hated WROD.



well, 'when they are able' was this week, which is really what most people are upset about.  The only reason Killington was not opening this weekend was economics.  They had the same, if not better situation to open top to bottom as Sunday River.  Almost 1/2 of what Sunday River offered this weekend was at lower elevation than the base of Snowdon.

One thing I do know is that Sunday River is going to try like hell to be open top to bottom next weekend.  If weather doesn't allow, they've got enough snow up on T2 to offer upper mountain skiing again.  Eventually the top terrain will be expanded to Upper Sunday Punch and Exstacy, so they can have two lifts going, followed by Cascade down low so that there are two lower mountain option.   

Given equal snow making operating windows moving forward, I'm not sure an argument can be made as to which mountain has the better strategy in terms of quick terrain expansion.  I guess the proof will be in the numbers/acreage offered in a couple of weeks.


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## AtomicSkier (Oct 18, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Opening in November with 5 trails would be MIGHTY sad.


Why?  They opened last year in November without 5 real trails.


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## tcharron (Oct 18, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?



Not sure how you possibly consider it class.  Pretty sure you'd feel different if you actually ran into anyone on the mountain, and they chased you down threatening to call the police.


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## speden (Oct 18, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I know. But this way when they are able to blow the lower mountain, they'll probably have 5 trails open up top, and can expand to either the Canyon or Snowdon basically immediately. You know, open more than the hated WROD.



Yeah, if their strategy is to open lots of trails but open late, then I guess there's some sense to it.  But with their early marketing effort to promote the snowmaking and Beast moniker, it seemed like they wanted to compete to open early.  Since they have no mid-mountain downloading capability, and apparently no desire to build it, it seems like lining a top to bottom trail with modern fanguns might be their best route to early season skiing.


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## tcharron (Oct 18, 2009)

AtomicSkier said:


> Why?  They opened last year in November without 5 real trails.



*dingdingding*  We have a winner!

I never said last year wasn't pretty sad as well.


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## Geoff (Oct 18, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> The only reason Killington was not opening this weekend was economics.



It was more than that.  On Wednesday morning, the weather models for the Sunday/Monday nor'easter were all over the place.   Some models showed 2" of liquid at Killington.   Others showed that it might spit a little with the storm tracking off Cape Cod.   The Burlington NWS pretty much said they didn't have a clue.  It would have been kind of stupid to blow all that snow, have one day of skiing on Saturday, and have it all wash away on Sunday/Monday.

Killington also had heavy equipment up on the hill working on installing a new fan gun.   I doubt they wanted to blow snow on top of a back hoe trying to get some pre-season work done.   Who knows if they had a staffing issue.   I know they changed software for ticketing and that delayed getting season passes in the mail as they were sorting out kinks in the new system.   It appeared to be functional for Brewfest but they haven't used it to sell day tickets yet.

So I figure it was a combination of their conservative operating style, iffy weather, and simply not being ready to go.


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## sLoPeS (Oct 18, 2009)

Geoff said:


> It was more than that.  On Wednesday morning, the weather models for the Sunday/Monday nor'easter were all over the place.   Some models showed 2" of liquid at Killington.   Others showed that it might spit a little with the storm tracking off Cape Cod.   The Burlington NWS pretty much said they didn't have a clue.  It would have been kind of stupid to blow all that snow, have one day of skiing on Saturday, and have it all wash away on Sunday/Monday.
> 
> Killington also had heavy equipment up on the hill working on installing a new fan gun.   I doubt they wanted to blow snow on top of a back hoe trying to get some pre-season work done.   Who knows if they had a staffing issue.   I know they changed software for ticketing and that delayed getting season passes in the mail as they were sorting out kinks in the new system.   It appeared to be functional for Brewfest but *they haven't used it to sell day tickets yet.*
> 
> So I figure it was a combination of their conservative operating style, iffy weather, and simply not being ready to go.



incorrect.


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## speden (Oct 18, 2009)

Hmmmm, looks like Gillette stadium has more snow on it than the lower slopes of Killington.  Something's not right here...


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## Geoff (Oct 18, 2009)

speden said:


> Hmmmm, looks like Gillette stadium has more snow on it than the lower slopes of Killington.  Something's not right here...



It's about the same amount of snow.   The mountain has been white above 2500 feet for quite a few days.


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## bigbob (Oct 18, 2009)

sLoPeS said:


> incorrect.



 Please explain your statement


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## sLoPeS (Oct 18, 2009)

bigbob said:


> Please explain your statement



just saying thats not true.  did anyone ride the gondola this summer/fall?


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## 2knees (Oct 18, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?



then by your logic, all those years of killington opening in october dont count.  You surely remember skiing off the double down the little green trail to upper cascade.  not more then 500 vert at best with little pitch.  that shouldnt count and therefor you shouldnt get your panties in a bunch over this whole thing.


The world according to zee.  

give me a break andy.


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## drjeff (Oct 18, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Nobody can blow their entire mountain at once, by building up their opening terrain up top they'll be able to expand much quicker when they do open. Pretty simple, actually.



All that K would need to do to ensure that their early season limiting factor (air capacity) is a non issue with the current opening trail layout is line their route down Snowdon, atleast the lower 1/2, if not all the way with fan guns.  Won't use ANY of the air from the main compressors, generally works a bit more efficiently in marginal temps, AND they could under most snowmaking windows, blow snow over the entire T2B route.  That would be a sign that the Beast of The East was really ready to roar again.  Might cost them a million or so to do it,  but it would be a sign of the willingness tobring back the Beast!

Frankly, I want to see K back as the Beast of The East, because when K is "roaring" that generally speaking makes the rest of the competition elevate their game, and that's a good thing!


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## Vortex (Oct 19, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?





You can't comment really unless you were at Sunday River bud. They were top to bottom with mid winter conditions up top Sunday.  Top to bottom late Sat afternoon.
  It was not a fuke ovening it was good on Sunday.  Friday was a novelty for me, got wet had a blast early sesaon.  Standard early season conditions. Sunday was good.

I can see you not blaming Killington, but Sunday River was in good shape and I would have been Happy with what we had in November.


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## bigbob (Oct 19, 2009)

^

++1


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## WJenness (Oct 19, 2009)

a'yuh <agreement with Bob R>

-w


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## Rogman (Oct 19, 2009)

Upper T2 is a pretty good run. I'll take it over anything off the North Ridge Triple at Killington, except maybe Ridge Run, which doesn't have snow making. I doubt a WROD is even possible off a fixed grip triple. Was it a publicity stunt? Of course. It's all about marketing. That doesn't make it a bad thing, customers obviously were happy with the experience. Win-Win.


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## Puck it (Oct 19, 2009)

The K-1 cam is now working.


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## Riverskier (Oct 19, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?



What? I skied Sunday River on Friday and the conditions were excellent. T2 may only be around 600 vertical feet, but it is a fairly wide trail with decent pitch. And it was absolutely BURIED on Friday, no little strip of snow. They shut off the guns around noon, the snow was soft, and there were great bump lines forming. Yeah, the terrain was limited, but it was October 16th after all! The quality of the skiing was top notch though, for any time of the year. Not to mention they were close to top to bottom, and actually opened top to bottom on Saturday.

If you somehow respect Killington for not opening, or you feel that is a sign of class, your certainly entitled to that. However, I seriously question your assesement of the conditions at Sunday River. WROD is not for everyone, and apparently not for you. However, many of us were out skiing at Sunday River this weekend, having a great time, and getting our season started long before any other mountain in the East opens. To all of the critics, don't go!


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## skiadikt (Oct 19, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Ok, let's get some perspective here, and I can't believe I'm doing this, but not only will I defend Killington, but I'll say they got some class. First, what does Sunday River really have, a little strip of snow open. Mount Snow, a freaking Bunny Hill  Give me a break, the things people do just to say the''re first and get publicity, can you say Woodbury? At least Killington will not open until they have a decent product to offer, top to bottom skiing. Yes, I know I want off on them, it was out of frustration after getting my hopes up. Today I hiked up Killinton, and I bet they have a lot more snow and terrain then Sunday River, but they also have, here I go again, shoot me, class. Take a look at the pic I took today, can you say whales?



weren't you the one with the killington r.i.p. thing bemoaning the death of the old killington. well a big part of that old killington was opening a short upper mtn trail in early october. suddenly that doesn't count for you. weren't you the one with the careful what you wish for thing regarding powdr. now powdr who you've slammed for the last 2 years is suddenly doing the right thing by promising a a quality product t-t-b skiing and sunday river, taking a page out of the old killington playbook is resorting to cheap pr tricks. don't think k's insistence on this quality t-t-b opening springs from any great concern for the customer, class or moral high road, it's an EXCUSE because they can't or just plain won't blow the snow necessary to open.


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## Vortex (Oct 19, 2009)

SR was top to bottom,  K could have done that if they wanted to.


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## Riverskier (Oct 19, 2009)

Bob R said:


> SR was top to bottom,  K could have done that if they wanted to.



Exactly. I believe (not sure exactly) that the base of Locke is somewhere around 1000 feet. And if I recall correctly Killington would only have to make snow down to around 2000 feet.


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## bvibert (Oct 19, 2009)

Let's not forget that Mount Snow was able to blow enough snow at lower elevations to open for a jibbing session this past weekend.


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## andyzee (Oct 19, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> Exactly. I believe (not sure exactly) that the base of Locke is somewhere around 1000 feet. And if I recall correctly Killington would only have to make snow down to around 2000 feet.



Hiked Killington this weekend and I have to agree. The ground was frozen solid all the way down to KBL and temps at night have been going down to low 20s. Guess since SR beat them, they didn't see any sense in rushing.


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## Riverskier (Oct 19, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Guess since SR beat them, they didn't see any sense in rushing.



Most resorts take this approach and that is certainly understandable. I just don't see how this approach commands respect, or somehow makes the mountain classier.


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## andyzee (Oct 19, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> Exactly. I believe (not sure exactly) that the base of Locke is somewhere around 1000 feet. And if I recall correctly Killington would only have to make snow down to around 2000 feet.





Riverskier said:


> Most resorts take this approach and that is certainly understandable. I just don't see how this approach commands respect, or somehow makes the mountain classier.




Classier in the sense that they don't open just for the sake of being the first to say they opened. I do not have much, if any, respect for Powdr, but at least they are not opening until they have top to bottom. Now people could chime in with Preston Smith days and trucking, they could say "Andy were you here for those days?"  "Would you have considered that an opening?" Answer to both is no. I wasn't around back then, and no, I wouldn't have considered that an opening. If you're going to do it, do it right, that's my attitude.


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## Riverskier (Oct 19, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Classier in the sense that they don't open just for the sake of being the first to say they opened. I do not have much, if any, respect for Powdr, but at least they are not opening until they have top to bottom. Now people could chime in with Preston Smith days and trucking, they could say "Andy were you here for those days?"  "Would you have considered that an opening?" Answer to both is no. I wasn't around back then, and no, I wouldn't have considered that an opening. If you're going to do it, do it right, that's my attitude.



Well, to each their own. However, when I was riding the chairlift and skiing spring-like bumps on Friday, they felt pretty open to me. And not just in the literal sense, the skiing was legit! And as you know, they opened top to bottom over the weekend. I have said it before and will say it again, early season is not for everyone. Judge their opening plan as you will, but Sunday River made a lot of people very happy this past week!


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## andyzee (Oct 19, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> Well, to each their own. However, when I was riding the chairlift and skiing spring-like bumps on Friday, they felt pretty open to me. And not just in the literal sense, the skiing was legit! And as you know, they opened top to bottom over the weekend. I have said it before and will say it again, early season is not for everyone. Judge their opening plan as you will, but Sunday River made a lot of people very happy this past week!



Not arguing that, glad you had a good time and I'm very jealous.  :beer:


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## Highway Star (Oct 6, 2010)

Bump....it's amazing that we had this mid-october cold and then everyone was closed on Thanskgiving.


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## jerryg (Oct 6, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Bump....it's amazing that we had this mid-october cold and then everyone was closed on Thanskgiving.



Everyone was? Hmmm...


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Everyone was? Hmmm...



Technically, Sunday River was open on Thanksgiving, weren't they? Kudos to them. Love the way they care about their customers. Sunday River rules!!!! Powdr could learn a few things from Boyne.

Viva la rio del domingo!!!!


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## Vortex (Oct 7, 2010)

Kids football game on Turkey day I can't miss this year.  First Turkey day I will miss making turns in quite a while.   SR opened every weekend after the mid oct opening to include Turkey day weekend last year.  It was a struggle, but a fun early season.

I would expect all major resorts to be open by turkey Day weekend this year.  Last year was not the norm.


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 7, 2010)

Bob R said:


> Kids football game on Turkey day I can't miss this year.  First Turkey day I will miss making turns in quite a while.   SR opened every weekend after the mid oct opening to include Turkey day weekend last year.  It was a struggle, but a fun early season.
> 
> I would expect all major resorts to be open by turkey Day weekend this year.  Last year was not the norm.


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2010)

Wow. Entertaining thread. A few posts had me struggling whether to :lol: or :roll: Ha! Everyone's an expert.

The discussion should be different this year with less of a focus on when they can make snow down to the base.


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## jerryg (Oct 7, 2010)

JerseyJoey said:


> Technically, Sunday River was open on Thanksgiving, weren't they?



Was indeed my point. SR has lift-served skiing on TDay. I'm not so much of a Maine homer that I woud say that SR rules, but I love how Boyne has a committment to being open early and closing late.


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## Geoff (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Everyone was? Hmmm...



I was there last Thanksgiving day.   I have Big Bob as a witness.   I still can't believe I was stoooopid enough to ski out instead of downloading.   I figured they'd have just about the same cover as the last time I'd skied it in October.   That was a looooong slog through the mud.


The problem with Maine skiing is that it's snow-starved.   The microclimate in the greens with all the orographic lift snow events is a big advantage for Vermont.


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## jerryg (Oct 7, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I was there last Thanksgiving day.   I have Big Bob as a witness.   I still can't believe I was stoooopid enough to ski out instead of downloading.   I figured they'd have just about the same cover as the last time I'd skied it in October.   That was a looooong slog through the mud.
> 
> 
> The problem with Maine skiing is that it's snow-starved.   The microclimate in the greens with all the orographic lift snow events is a big advantage for Vermont.



Totally agree. SL has had some really big snow years, but still their average is less thanmost of Vermont. I'f be interested to know the snow totals for places like Big Rock and Quoggy Jo - way up in the County. Snowmaking is sparse, but natural snow must be good if they keep getting award World Cup Biathalon events. SR get the moisture, but the temps suck and many events that start as snow end in ncp. And no, they DID NOT get 57 inches in any storm at any time last year.


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## JerseyJoey (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Totally agree. SL has had some really big snow years, but still their average is less thanmost of Vermont. I'f be interested to know the snow totals for places like Big Rock and Quoggy Jo - way up in the County. Snowmaking is sparse, but natural snow must be good if they keep getting award World Cup Biathalon events. SR get the moisture, but the temps suck and many events that start as snow end in ncp. And no, they DID NOT get 57 inches in any storm at any time last year.



They did get 57 inches from that storm last season. It was on the SR website. I saw it on there. I just wish I could have been there to ski it. I would have brought my snorkel. 57 inches is sick sick sick. Probably light and fluffy too. I wish I could have been there for that.


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## Riverskier (Oct 7, 2010)

Were either of you there for that storm? 57 inches is probably exagerated, but not by much. Over in Oz and Jordan I would say they got at least 48 inches over the course of the storm. The snow was DEEP. Sure, Southridge got 2 feet of sludge, but this was one of the biggest snow events at elevation that I have seen at Sunday River in the 23 years I have skied there.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Totally agree. SL has had some really big snow years, but still their average is less thanmost of Vermont. I'f be interested to know the snow totals for places like Big Rock and Quoggy Jo - way up in the County. Snowmaking is sparse, but natural snow must be good if they keep getting award World Cup Biathalon events. SR get the moisture, but the temps suck and many events that start as snow end in ncp. And no, they DID NOT get 57 inches in any storm at any time last year.



Two things, SR is more of a NH resort in terms of snow, Sugarloaf and Saddleback are more like a mid (Killington) to southern vermont (Okemo, Stratton) ski area.  Up north, Big Rock, Quoggy Jo they typically only get 100 to 120 inches of snow, but the big difference is that they see less rain during the course of the season and it's friggin cold as heck.  So the staying power of snow is far greater than nearly anywhere else in NE.  Although you have your non typical years where places like Caribou that got nearly 200 inches in 2007 and nearly 6 ft of snow on the ground (I think).  Also back to Sugarloaf and Saddleback they have very good staying power as well so outside of immediate powder days, their snow typically last as long or longer than places that get 50 to 100 inches more in Vermont.


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## jerryg (Oct 7, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Were either of you there for that storm? 57 inches is probably exagerated, but not by much. Over in Oz and Jordan I would say they got at least 48 inches over the course of the storm. The snow was DEEP. Sure, Southridge got 2 feet of sludge, but this was one of the biggest snow events at elevation that I have seen at Sunday River in the 23 years I have skied there.



I know that JerseyJoey knows what he's talking about. Alas, I was in Lake Tahoe and we received several feet of snow. It was real and I have pictures. I have yet to see pictures of the 57 inch megastorm, the falsified report of which may or may not have cost someone their job. Or at least a final nail, so to speak. I do know that some folks told me that the snow in OZ during that storm was quite good, but none have agreed on the 57 inches, or 48. I was there a  couple weeks later and while one could tell there had been a storm, there was no semblance of the megastorm.


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## Geoff (Oct 7, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Totally agree. SL has had some really big snow years, but still their average is less thanmost of Vermont. I'f be interested to know the snow totals for places like Big Rock and Quoggy Jo - way up in the County. Snowmaking is sparse, but natural snow must be good if they keep getting award World Cup Biathalon events. SR get the moisture, but the temps suck and many events that start as snow end in ncp. And no, they DID NOT get 57 inches in any storm at any time last year.



If Sunday River got the 250" Killington sees, I'd change mountains in a minute.   I really like the place but skiing on manmade snow isn't my favorite.   The trees at Sunday River are fun but you don't get to use them anywhere often enough in an average season.   With 250", they'd be more prone to thin out other areas and leave some trails as natural snow trails.


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## Riverskier (Oct 8, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I know that JerseyJoey knows what he's talking about. Alas, I was in Lake Tahoe and we received several feet of snow. It was real and I have pictures. I have yet to see pictures of the 57 inch megastorm, the falsified report of which may or may not have cost someone their job. Or at least a final nail, so to speak. I do know that some folks told me that the snow in OZ during that storm was quite good, but none have agreed on the 57 inches, or 48. I was there a  couple weeks later and while one could tell there had been a storm, there was no semblance of the megastorm.



I still say 48 inches is more than reasonable, but that is just my opinion and I don't have any proof or evidence. Of course nobody saw that, because it snowed for 3-4 days and was getting skied that entire time. Even where it had no been skied, you still wouldn't see 48 inches due to compaction over the course of the storm. It really doesn't matter, but I would take the opinion much more seriously of someone who was actually there, as opposed to Jersey Joey who doesn't ski Sunday River, and your aseessment several weeks after the fact. Bottom line, by Sunday River standards it was an epic weekend and one of the biggest storms I have seen in my 23 years of skiing there.


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## mondeo (Oct 8, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> I still say 48 inches is more than reasonable, but that is just my opinion and I don't have any proof or evidence. Of course nobody saw that, because it snowed for 3-4 days and was getting skied that entire time. Even where it had no been skied, you still wouldn't see 48 inches due to compaction over the course of the storm. It really doesn't matter, but I would take the opinion much more seriously of someone who was actually there, as opposed to Jersey Joey who doesn't ski Sunday River, and your aseessment several weeks after the fact. Bottom line, by Sunday River standards it was an epic weekend and one of the biggest storms I have seen in my 23 years of skiing there.


I'm assuming this was the late February storm?

Killington got hammered by that one too, but with the way it came through, it didn't seem like that by Sunday. Blower followed by cement then rain then a little snow, you had to time that one right. Obviously that one was slightly location dependant, but I could see 48" looking like a 15" storm a week or two later.


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## Riverskier (Oct 8, 2010)

mondeo said:


> I'm assuming this was the late February storm?
> 
> Killington got hammered by that one too, but with the way it came through, it didn't seem like that by Sunday. Blower followed by cement then rain then a little snow, you had to time that one right. Obviously that one was slightly location dependant, but I could see 48" looking like a 15" storm a week or two later.



That was the late February storm. It was amazing how location dependent the storm was just at Sunday River. The lowest elevations got maybe 2 feet and it was mixed with rain. The skiing was actually pretty bad down there. Packed down very wet powder with a unique slippery/icy layer on top. Other parts got anywhere between that and the higher end with varying densities. The higher elevations, Jordan Bowl and Oz, really got hit though and the snow was relatively dry for the most part. By Sunday it would have been hard to judge how much had fallen, inbounds anyway, as it was a busy weekend and everything had been skied hard and there were huge moguls everywhere. Trying to judge a couple weeks late, forget about it. Not using this as an actually unit of measurement, but when I found some untracked in the woods that Sunday I could stick my pole in and not touch bottom.


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## neil (Oct 8, 2010)

Yeah, I went there on the Saturday after that storm and Jordan was awesome in general. Some areas were pretty wet, but still had a lot of good stuff there. Also had the least amount of people which was weird seeing as the rest of the mountain really wasn't that good.


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## WJenness (Oct 8, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> That was the late February storm. It was amazing how location dependent the storm was just at Sunday River. The lowest elevations got maybe 2 feet and it was mixed with rain. The skiing was actually pretty bad down there. Packed down very wet powder with a unique slippery/icy layer on top. Other parts got anywhere between that and the higher end with varying densities. The higher elevations, Jordan Bowl and Oz, really got hit though and the snow was relatively dry for the most part. By Sunday it would have been hard to judge how much had fallen, inbounds anyway, as it was a busy weekend and everything had been skied hard and there were huge moguls everywhere. Trying to judge a couple weeks late, forget about it. Not using this as an actually unit of measurement, but when I found some untracked in the woods that Sunday I could stick my pole in and not touch bottom.





neil said:


> Yeah, I went there on the Saturday after that storm and Jordan was awesome in general. Some areas were pretty wet, but still had a lot of good stuff there. Also had the least amount of people which was weird seeing as the rest of the mountain really wasn't that good.



Agreed on all points.

I had a GREAT weekend that weekend.

Barker sucked, but I went higher and was rewarded.

-w


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## jerryg (Oct 8, 2010)

I know the snow got compacted and there was tough weather afterwards. I know that Jordan/Oz got hammered and the skiing was unreal. I know that there some fabulous days of skiing to be had in the Outback. I have not heard from any of my fellow SR skiers, that there was 48 inches. I may buy that over the course of the storm, 48 inches fell in Oz and repeatedly got blown around, but I just don't get why there aren't more SR skiers and riders saying that it happened. I'm not saying you're lying, seriously, I just think it's weird. I do, however, believe that SR lied about the 57 inch total.


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## Riverskier (Oct 8, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I know the snow got compacted and there was tough weather afterwards. I know that Jordan/Oz got hammered and the skiing was unreal. I know that there some fabulous days of skiing to be had in the Outback. I have not heard from any of my fellow SR skiers, that there was 48 inches. I may buy that over the course of the storm, 48 inches fell in Oz and repeatedly got blown around, but I just don't get why there aren't more SR skiers and riders saying that it happened. I'm not saying you're lying, seriously, I just think it's weird. I do, however, believe that SR lied about the 57 inch total.



You heard one thing. I heard and saw another. We could keep going back and forth, but I think we can both agree it really doesn't matter. Now if the cold weather would just get here, we can start talking about this season instead of last!


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## WJenness (Oct 8, 2010)

I've gotta admit... I have no idea what the stated, projected or actual total was... and I didn't that weekend... I didn't take a ruler out with me... I just had a friggin blast.

-w


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## jerryg (Oct 8, 2010)

WJenness said:


> I've gotta admit... I have no idea what the stated, projected or total was... and I didn't that weekend... I didn't take a ruler out with me... I just had a friggin blast.
> 
> -w




That's what's it's all about. I'm not trying ot be argumentative, but ski resort reports can be frustrating. SR has overstated totals for years, but then again, so has everyone else.

Bottom line is that I know Boyne will get SR open ASAP and close SL ALAP so we all win...


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## skiberg (Oct 8, 2010)

Every ski resort lies about it's snow totals, but nobody lies as bad as Killington. Although, the mos recent ownershipp seems a bit more reasonable.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2010)

I'm sorry, but it is wrong to bump this thread with all of us Jonesin'!  Everytime I come into the boards and see this I get the idea that snowmaking HAS begun for the 2010-2011 season.  :lol:


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## bvibert (Oct 8, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sorry, but it is wrong to bump this thread with all of us Jonesin'!  Everytime I come into the boards and see this I get the idea that snowmaking HAS begun for the 2010-2011 season.  :lol:



I thought of changing the title to reflect the year in which this thread was started, but what be the fun in that?!?!? :lol:


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## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2010)

skiberg said:


> Every ski resort lies about it's snow totals, but nobody lies as bad as Killington. Although, the mos recent ownershipp seems a bit more reasonable.


 
They don't lie. They report figures at KBL. If you're not skiing the full reported depth or (much) more, you're in the wrong spot or 2 days too late.


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## skiberg (Oct 8, 2010)

Sorry, I just do not believe that. Of course a lot of my jaded perspective comes from the Killington of the late 80's and 90's. They seem to have mellowed a bit. When they were competing Whit ASC it was anything goes by both parties. Rem. SR's claim that White Heat was the steepest trail in the east.


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## hammer (Oct 8, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm sorry, but it is wrong to bump this thread with all of us Jonesin'!  Everytime I come into the boards and see this I get the idea that snowmaking HAS begun for the 2010-2011 season.  :lol:


+1...especially this time of year.  Can't we close this thread and start another one?


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## Black Phantom (Oct 8, 2010)

skiberg said:


> Sorry, I just do not believe that. Of course a lot of my jaded perspective comes from the Killington of the late 80's and 90's. They seem to have mellowed a bit. When they were competing Whit ASC it was anything goes by both parties. Rem. SR's claim that White Heat was the steepest trail in the east.



How many days do you ski per season? When was the last powder day you experienced, and where?


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## skiberg (Oct 8, 2010)

35 days or so. Who knows my last powder day, probably Whistler last year. Dont think we had much pow at Cannon from March on but can't recall exactly.


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## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2010)

skiberg said:


> Sorry, I just do not believe that. Of course a lot of my jaded perspective comes from the Killington of the late 80's and 90's. They seem to have mellowed a bit. When they were competing Whit ASC it was anything goes by both parties. Rem. SR's claim that White Heat was the steepest trail in the east.


 
This is from a day they reported 4"-6", on top of no natural base:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70296


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## jerryg (Oct 8, 2010)

skiberg said:


> Sorry, I just do not believe that. Of course a lot of my jaded perspective comes from the Killington of the late 80's and 90's. They seem to have mellowed a bit. When they were competing Whit ASC it was anything goes by both parties. Rem. SR's claim that White Heat was the steepest trail in the east.



SR never claimed that White Heat was the steepest trail in the east, nor did they claim it was the longest or widest. Their claim was that it was the "Steep longest widest" lift-serviced trail in the east. They left out the commas and thus their claim was that it wasn't any of each lone, but together, there wasn't a trail that was as long while being as steep and wide. It was a masterpiece of marketing and it worked.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2010)

jerryg said:


> It was a masterpiece of marketing and it worked.



and a disaster of trail design. 

Shockwave and Obsession are two of my favorie trails on the mountain, especially Shockwave.   They should have made Heat about the width of Agony and then thrown another trail inbetween it and Shockwave.  

Think how much better that would make Whitecap.


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## jerryg (Oct 8, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> and a disaster of trail design.
> 
> Shockwave and Obsession are two of my favorie trails on the mountain, especially Shockwave.   They should have made Heat about the width of Agony and then thrown another trail inbetween it and Shockwave.
> 
> Think how much better that would make Whitecap.



Totally agree. White Cap could have had a much better design, but Les was looking for an answer to OL and he thought he found it in WH. A lot of people still think that WH is a some super-hard trail that they want to conquer while realistically, it's just a wide sheet of ice that is underutilized now. I remember skiing June 1st of WH back in like 94 and you had to walk from the base of the WH lift to the base of White Cap. Shockwave is a fabulous trail, which I think is one of the best in the east in the right conditions. Obsession can be a lot of fun and has proven to be a good racing trail. I've never thought much of Chutzpah, but Hard Ball is a really fun glade if you know where to ski it.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2010)

jerryg said:


> Shockwave is a fabulous trail, which I think is one of the best in the east in the right conditions.



One of the biggest shit eating grins I've had in the past five years was on Shockwave a few seasons ago after a recent dump when they hadn't mowed down the snowmaking whales.  I remember I think four years ago when it didn't open it all.  It always seems to be a very low priority trail for them to get open despite how great it is.  I think the biggest factor in why many don't ski over on Whitecap is the Temptest Quad.  Such a crappy lift to get out of that area when you want to.

My favorite areas of SR are Aurora and Whitecap (when SW is open).  They seem to be the least popular areas of the mountain.  BobR will probably kill me for saying this, but I think Vortex ranks second behind WH for the biggest Fup design on the mountain.  It often is just a wide boilerplate as well.  Should've made two narrower trails in that valley instead of the wide swath.

......or seed bumps wall to wall on Vortex.


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## jerryg (Oct 9, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> but I think Vortex ranks second behind WH for the biggest Fup design on the mountain.  It often is just a wide boilerplate as well.  Should've made two narrower trails in that valley instead of the wide swath.
> 
> ......or seed bumps wall to wall on Vortex.



I love Vortex. The snow has been much better in recent years and it's a got a very good consistently steep pitch.


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## millerm277 (Oct 9, 2010)

skiberg said:


> Every ski resort lies about it's snow totals, but nobody lies as bad as Killington. Although, the mos recent ownershipp seems a bit more reasonable.



Having made nearly every decent storm at Killington in the past couple years....they don't lie in any way I can tell, the numbers are usually roughly about what it "feels" like to me for overall snowfall.

However, Killington often gets some serious winds along with the storms (especially Skye Peak), and not always in the same direction. As a result, they can get 2ft of snow, and depending on where you head to, you might find wind scoured nothing, or 6ft drifts.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 9, 2010)

jerryg said:


> I love Vortex. The snow has been much better in recent years and it's a got a very good consistently steep pitch.



haven't had a pass there in a few seasons.  When I did have a pass there it was almost always just a boilerplate swath down the middle with bumps on the sides.

I don't think trails like Vortex should ever be groomed outside of freeze events.


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## Terry (Oct 9, 2010)

WJenness said:


> I've gotta admit... I have no idea what the stated, projected or actual total was... and I didn't that weekend... I didn't take a ruler out with me... I just had a friggin blast.
> 
> -w


We were there for early turns with management that saturday morning and man you should have heard the hooting and hollering! I don't know how deep it was but it seemed bottomless. It was the deepest I have skied in a long time. And our group had it all to ourselves for an hour before the masses showed up!


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## bigbob (Oct 9, 2010)

Riverskier said:


> Were either of you there for that storm? 57 inches is probably exagerated, but not by much. Over in Oz and Jordan I would say they got at least 48 inches over the course of the storm. The snow was DEEP. Sure, Southridge got 2 feet of sludge, but this was one of the biggest snow events at elevation that I have seen at Sunday River in the 23 years I have skied there.



 Measuring snowfall is more than sticking a ruler in at the end of the storm. Snow compacts and settles as more snow falls on top of what has already fallen. The NWS has a standard procedure for using an elevated snowboard and clearing off the snowboard after a 6" accumulation to lessen the compaction. If you measured 48" at the end of the storm, it would not surprise me if the true total was 57".


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## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> One of the biggest shit eating grins I've had in the past five years was on Shockwave a few seasons ago after a recent dump when they hadn't mowed down the snowmaking whales.  I remember I think four years ago when it didn't open it all.  It always seems to be a very low priority trail for them to get open despite how great it is.  I think the biggest factor in why many don't ski over on Whitecap is the Temptest Quad.  Such a crappy lift to get out of that area when you want to.
> 
> My favorite areas of SR are Aurora and Whitecap (when SW is open).  They seem to be the least popular areas of the mountain.  BobR will probably kill me for saying this, but I think Vortex ranks second behind WH for the biggest Fup design on the mountain.  It often is just a wide boilerplate as well.  Should've made two narrower trails in that valley instead of the wide swath.
> 
> ......or seed bumps wall to wall on Vortex.



I have also been on shockwave when after rain and freeze when they hadn't mowed down the snowmaking cliffs (whales). It was the worst trail I have ever skied. It shouldn't have been open and it was the only trail I have ever thought about taking the skis off. I should had done my home work because it snow 10 inches in MWV and rain at Sunday river. I have skied it on good days as well. Skied the next day at Wildcat and had a great day.


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## Vortex (Oct 11, 2010)

Don't ski Vortex and Black hole. Way over rated.  Ski Jordan and White cap, that  is where the cool people hang.:wink:  Upper section or Vortex on a powder day is unreal.


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## Newpylong (Oct 11, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> and a disaster of trail design.
> 
> Shockwave and Obsession are two of my favorie trails on the mountain, especially Shockwave.   They should have made Heat about the width of Agony and then thrown another trail inbetween it and Shockwave.
> 
> Think how much better that would make Whitecap.



Agreed 100%. Obsession is one of the best runs to rip turns on anywhere. Shockwave is also a blast. White Heat is just fun watching on the ride up, lol.


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