# Vail's Big Northeast Improvements- 2022-2023



## ss20 (Sep 23, 2021)

https://liftblog.com/2021/09/23/breaking-vail-resorts-to-build-19-lifts-at-14-resorts-in-2022/


Northeast Specific-



> _Vermont & New Hampshire _
> 
> 
> *Stowe Mountain Resort, Mountain Lift: *The replacement and extension of the existing fixed-grip triple to a high-speed 6-person lift will increase uphill capacity by 100%, eliminate the steep hike to the base of the lift, improve reliability on windy days and offer beginner and intermediate guests with better access to lower-level terrain choices.
> ...




Huge changes coming to Mount Snow and Stowe!!!!  Mount Snow FINALLY replaces one of the most overdue lift replacements in the East with Sunbrook, AND brings back the "original" Sundance triple line.  Personally I would prefer a HSQ on North Face before Sundance, but I'd bet they're prepping that base area for a big redevelopment and getting people to park there rather than the overcrowded Main Base.  

IMO, a 6 on the Mountain Triple is overkill at Stowe, but I got no skin in that game lol.


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## gregnye (Sep 23, 2021)

I guess Vail finally discovered that Attitash existed. Too bad they haven't found the upper mountain yet. Otherwise maybe they would have finally replaced the summit triple. I guess we just have to wait another 30+ years.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Sep 23, 2021)

When Stowe says they will eliminate the steep hike up to the lift does that mean the new lift will actually come down to close to the parking lot level? That would be awesome.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 23, 2021)

theres only one vail thread around here, and its about how they suck.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Sep 23, 2021)

Not so sure how much I love replacing Sundance and Tumbleweed with one lift, as Sundance has been a great way to get near the top without a major lift line. I like some off the radar not from base lifts.


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## kendo (Sep 23, 2021)

6 at Stowe will help a lot when the quad is on wind holds.  

Thought they'd replace the double to get more top access but might have same exposure to wind and would be more congestion on Lord.


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## ss20 (Sep 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> theres only one vail thread around here, and its about how they suck.



I hate vail too but they've made the most on-hill improvements out of anyone in the past couple decades.


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## Zand (Sep 23, 2021)

Kind of sad that the one place on Mt Snow's main face that you can avoid the yahoos will be overrun with people now. But I guess its good news in a general sense. Also Sunbrook was long overdue, just needs more trails.


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## ss20 (Sep 23, 2021)

Zand said:


> Kind of sad that the one place on Mt Snow's main face that you can avoid the yahoos will be overrun with people now. But I guess its good news in a general sense. Also Sunbrook was long overdue, just needs more trails.



Mount Snow at least has enough trail capacity to take on the new lift.  It won't be uncrowded over there anymore, but it won't be like Stratton where you have a gondola, two six packs, and a hsq all funneling onto 15 trails at the top.


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## icecoast1 (Sep 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Mount Snow at least has enough trail capacity to take on the new lift.  It won't be uncrowded over there anymore, but it won't be like Stratton where you have a gondola, two six packs, and a hsq all funneling onto 15 trails at the top.


Hopefully it runs everyday as well and they don't continue the every/other alternation with Beartrap midweek.


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## Smellytele (Sep 23, 2021)

Vail will suck until they replace the attitash triple.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

kendo said:


> 6 at Stowe will help a lot when the quad is on wind holds.
> 
> Thought they'd replace the double to get more top access but might have same exposure to wind and would be more congestion on Lord.



I would not want them to change a thing with the Lookout double.  The reason being is it would likely mean widening and perhaps some regrading of the Lookout trail.  That would suck.  Next to Goat it's my favorite trail as is on that side of the hill.

I have been advocating for a six to replace the triple for many years.  Not because of wind hold, but a faster lift over there will reduce the amount of people on the quad overall because many people dislike slow lifts. 

Alas I'm not getting a Vail pass again anytime soon


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## ne_skier (Sep 23, 2021)

Any small ski area owners reading this get your pocketbooks out...gonna be a good handful of orphaned lifts next summer. I don't see them reinstalling Sundance or Tumbleweed, every lift mechanic I know on social media says that they are a pain in the ass to work on, so I doubt they'd go through the trouble of reinstalling one. No way they'd reinstall a tandem lift either due to their size and inefficiency. If you were looking for a longer triple there's a chance Vail would be willing to sell you Mountain alongside towers, line gear, carriers, etc from the old Green Ridge lift. Whatever they're doing sounds great and I have zero plans to ski at a Vail resort so I'll give them a break as I have no skin in the game


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## NYDB (Sep 23, 2021)

How much life is  left in the wildcat hsq?

coming up on 25 years of service.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Any small ski area owners reading this get your pocketbooks out...gonna be a good handful of orphaned lifts next summer. I don't see them reinstalling Sundance or Tumbleweed, every lift mechanic I know on social media says that they are a pain in the ass to work on, so I doubt they'd go through the trouble of reinstalling one. No way they'd reinstall a tandem lift either due to their size and inefficiency. If you were looking for a longer triple there's a chance Vail would be willing to sell you Mountain alongside towers, line gear, carriers, etc from the old Green Ridge lift. Whatever they're doing sounds great and I have zero plans to ski at a Vail resort so I'll give them a break as I have no skin in the game




Please  be Big Squaw to reopen the upper mountain.   Very unlikely, but would be great.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> How much life is  left in the wildcat hsq?
> 
> coming up on 25 years of service.



I would think if properly maintained they could get another ten out of it.   The chair seems to have been pretty well maintained.  Ive skied Cat more than any other mountain since 2007.  Probably close to 200 days.  The maintenance stoppages have been pretty rare.  

Cat needs snowmaking pumping capacity increased more than anything.  Maybe dredge the reservoir too.  Even with the improvements from 6-7 years ago, I still don't believe they can blow a full trail top to bottom.


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## snoseek (Sep 23, 2021)

Fuck they could have moved the clipper over and put a new lift to the top with a midstation.


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## SnowRock (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I would not want them to change a thing with the Lookout double.  The reason being is it would likely mean widening and perhaps some regrading of the Lookout trail.  That would suck.  Next to Goat it's my favorite trail as is on that side of the hill.
> 
> I have been advocating for a six to replace the triple for many years.  Not because of wind hold, but a faster lift over there will reduce the amount of people on the quad overall because many people dislike slow lifts.
> 
> Alas I'm not getting a Vail pass again anytime soon


Agree with this… both on the lifts and lookout. One of my best runs ever,  anywhere, was late season at Stowe in 2017.  There was a sneaky early April dump and a pretty light crowd. Was on one of first chairs up and hit lookout first. Was just an unreal run that I still think about. 

Never imagined a 6 pack for the triple, figured they’d make it a HSQ… but thinking about it, a 6 pack makes sense. Should really help take pressure off the quad. 

Next thing they need to do is add snowmaking and a high speed to the toll house area which could create another beginner pod and spread things out more.


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## thebigo (Sep 23, 2021)

Wow, they own four areas in NH, none with a lift less than 25 years old and their big improvement is a beginner fixed grip quad? They suck.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

SnowRock said:


> Agree with this… both on the lifts and lookout. One of my best runs ever,  anywhere, was late season at Stowe in 2017.  There was a sneaky early April dump and a pretty light crowd. Was on one of first chairs up and hit lookout first. Was just an unreal run that I still think about.
> 
> Never imagined a 6 pack for the triple, figured they’d make it a HSQ… but thinking about it, a 6 pack makes sense. Should really help take pressure off the quad.
> 
> Next thing they need to do is add snowmaking and a high speed to the toll house area which could create another beginner pod and spread things out more.



Had many such runs on Lookout.  IMO that chair and trail has earned Castle Rock / Single Chair status.   Preserve it forever and only replace the lift like for like when it dies.  So basically once every 50 years.  

I'm not sure a HSQ is the answer for the Toll House area.  It's really way too long and so flat in the middle to be a great full length learning area.  I know, I've dragged my son with my pole while skating plenty of times for long distances in the middle on Easy Street.  The little ones just can't maintain the speed.  

 I almost think a fixed grip chair with a mid station from where lower toll road meets Easy Street makes the most sense.  Blow snow on easy street top to bottom, but give folks the option to ski just the top.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Wow, they own four areas in NH, none with a lift less than 25 years old and their big improvement is a beginner fixed grip quad? They suck.



Pretty close to true.  Sunapee has a couple that are barely less than 25.  Were the fixed grip triple and quad at CM refurbished?

Your point rings true though.  Their NH lift infrastructure is all getting old.


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## PAabe (Sep 23, 2021)

The double doubles are kind of iconic but I guess it makes sense to want to be able to load groups larger than 2


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## ne_skier (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Please  be Big Squaw to reopen the upper mountain.   Very unlikely, but would be great.


In the east at least I'm not aware of Vail operating any Yans outside of Mount Snow, so even if they don't plan on reinstalling one I don't think they would have much use for it parts-wise either. They could probably get a pretty good deal on Sundance. Of the lifts going out in the east, Sunbrook is the most likely to be reused. Wouldn't be surprised if Vail moved it over to Attitash to replace the East and West doubles.


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## ne_skier (Sep 23, 2021)

PAabe said:


> The double doubles are kind of iconic but I guess it makes sense to want to be able to load groups larger than 2


Never been to Attitash but they do seem like cool lifts, double-doubles are one of the defining lift types of the 1970s before fixed-grip quads became mainstream. Tons of resorts nowadays however are replacing them, just due to how inefficient they are in the long run. Double the energy, double the staff, double the maintenance, etc. I knew that those lift's days were numbered but I'm surprised that Vail chose to replace those first instead of Summit. If push comes to shove I believe Flying Yankee serves all of its terrain if those lifts go down or can't keep up with the brunt of the traffic. Summit is Attitash's only summit access and has a history of breaking down mid-season


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## ne_skier (Sep 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Were the fixed grip triple and quad at CM refurbished?


They were installed in 2003 and likely built around the late 80s-early 90s based on crossarm design. Anyone's guess...unless someone here knows more about those lifts than I do, which is likely.


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## ss20 (Sep 23, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> In the east at least I'm not aware of Vail operating any Yans outside of Mount Snow, so even if they don't plan on reinstalling one I don't think they would have much use for it parts-wise either. They could probably get a pretty good deal on Sundance. Of the lifts going out in the east, Sunbrook is the most likely to be reused. Wouldn't be surprised if Vail moved it over to Attitash to replace the East and West doubles.



You rarely see Yans get re-installed because the towers are placed in poured cement, not bolted down like other modern lifts.  PITA to move.  Yes, SOME places have re-installed Yans but not nearly as many as other lift manufacturers.  

@deadheadskier for his move to Big Squaw idea.  

Sunbrook, on the other hand, will most certainly live on.  I always thought moving Sunbrook to the double on Carinthia would be a great way to alleviate traffic off the Carinthia quad.


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## PAabe (Sep 23, 2021)

I can't remember what other places do but Blue Mountain and Shawnee only have 1 person at the unload for both double doubles, and 1 person directing traffic at the bottom for the both of them, although you still need 2 people bumping.  And a lot of the time only 1/2 need to be run, though I don't know if a double has significantly less power/maintenance costs than a quad.  So I don't know that the economics are necessarily double as bad but I guess with a new lift and drive it will be more efficient than something old anyway.

Also obviously not the case for beginner lifts but Blue really cranks up the speed on their doubles sometimes, to the point where it can be just as fast to use those as their slowpoke detach lifts by the time you navigate the runout and wait in line.  I think it is easier to load a fixed double at high speed than a fixed quad.

JF lifts are Borvig/Partek, almost identical to the ones at Shawnee and BB. Partek could possibly reinstall them or at least resell the parts other than the tandem towers.  They have been installing, reinstalling, and refurbishing lifts slowly but steadily.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2021)

What I could see happening at Attitash with replacing the double doubles is them also removing the learning center triple eventually.   The learning center terrain slope it services isn't very good for it's intended purpose of a step up from the carpet.   It's pretty steep for novices.  Widening Councilors to Far Out would be a better option.


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## PAabe (Sep 23, 2021)

So I was looking at lift blog a bit, turns out there are a fair number of Borvig/Partek double doubles around.  Also, converting a fixed grip lift into a tandem fixed grip lift with shared towers has been done several times in the not too distant past including at Elk and Whiteface.  I would be surprised if somewhere were to opt for that anymore over a detachable lift but I guess for shorter distances and capital investment/maintenance/reliability reasons it makes sense.

And Partek is definitely in the business of wheeling and dealing old Borvig lifts, there are far more Partek/Borvig lifts around than I realized.


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## ss20 (Sep 23, 2021)

PAabe said:


> So I was looking at lift blog a bit, turns out there are a fair number of Borvig/Partek double doubles around.  Also, converting a fixed grip lift into a tandem fixed grip lift with shared towers has been done several times in the not too distant past including at Elk and Whiteface.  I would be surprised if somewhere were to opt for that anymore over a detachable lift but I guess for shorter distances and capital investment/maintenance/reliability reasons it makes sense.
> 
> And Partek is definitely in the business of wheeling and dealing old Borvig lifts, there are far more Partek/Borvig lifts around than I realized.



You won't see too many more.  Borvig has a really bad safety record the past decade on lifts that should not have failed that young.  Sugarloaf Spillway and King Pine.  Tussey Mountain PA.  With these things you never know if it's maintenance or an inherent flaw but the Borvig name has been the one constant.


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## urungus (Sep 24, 2021)

Finally, some investment in their eastern resorts, its too bad there is no replacement for the Attitash Summit Triple, because that lift has become sort of the poster child for Vails neglect.  This year I am going to try to ski Hackett‘s Highway under the Stowe Mountain triple for first time, just in case they eff it up while installing new lift, like what happened at Gore recently.


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## kingslug (Sep 24, 2021)

The 6 will definitely help Stowe..but is it going to start lower?? end higher? we shall see.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The 6 will definitely help Stowe..but is it going to start lower?? end higher? we shall see.



The way it reads, lower.  Seems like the base terminal and line corral is going to go in that little parking area lookers left of the Mansfield base lodge.  So, it will basically be a flat walk from the lodge or parking lot to the base of the new chair.


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## Pez (Sep 24, 2021)

When i went to stowe for the first time in years i was surprised they only still had the 1 hsq to the top, so this seems like a good idea.

the sundance / tumbleweed is probably due to the fac tthose two lifts are old.  honestly don't think the new lift will be too crowded.  there isn't much of a parking lot at the sundance base area.  perhaps they are thinking of expanding in the years to come?  

i get the sunbrook hsq, but i'm a little bummed.  that's a nice place to get away to some throwback style skiing area.  Wouldn't mind a small base lodge there with a deck for hanging out in the spring


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## kingslug (Sep 24, 2021)

Too bad it won't also go to the top..but the quad is damn fast.


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## xlr8r (Sep 24, 2021)

Wow, this was some unexpected big news with a lot to digest.  Feels like we are back in the 90s again with another lift arms race taking place.  

Stowe:
Mountain 6 - This upgrade is perfect for Stowe.  It gives intermediates and park rats a lift of their own, will take significant pressure off of Fourrunner, and spread people out more on Mansfield.  Also it eliminates the need to walk up the stairway from the Mansfield Lodge.  Great upgrade, exactly what Stowe needs.

Mount Snow:
Sunbrook Express - Long overdue upgrade that should have happened 20 years ago.  I bet the old quad gets reused somewhere, maybe at Attitash.
Sundance 6 - This will reduce lines on the main face, but I am afraid of how it will affect crowding on the trails.  This will put even more people on Long John, which is already overcrowded.  I wish they would just keep Tumbleweed and start the new lift where Sundance currently starts.  Seems like Vail knows they need to reduce lift lines at Mount Snow as much as possible.  I bet a Challenger replacement is coming soon on the North Face with either a quad or 6. 

Attitash:
Thad's Choice Quad - An under the radar but greatly needed upgrade, and proof Vail recognizes New Hampshire exists.  The Double Doubles were terrible as beginner lifts.  The loading inside the building was difficult, and they frequently had emergency stops.  They either ran at normal speed or stopped, I cannot recall them slowing down gently for loading beginners and kids.  Not replacing the summit triple is a bad PR move as now everyone now knows we have at least 2 more season to live with the triple.  Also I wonder if this quad will reduce the amount of days Flying Yankee is run even more.  

Other Musings:
Sunapee gets no love, I bet Sunapee is going to be completely overcrowded this season and next.  Even if they do not go ahead with the expansion, I would have expected them to replace Sunapee Express with a 6.  Sunapee is in a similar overcrowded situation as Mount Snow.

Nothing at Crotched, Wildcat or Okemo.  This is expected, Crotched and Wildcat really do not need any new lifts.  Okemo, I bet they want to see how this years upgrades affect the mountain before adding more new lifts.

Looking at the West upgrades as well there seems to be 2 major things going on with the upgrades.  
1- To reduce lift lines at all costs.  They know they are selling more an more passes, and already crowded mountains are getting even more crowded.  I think their goal is to reduce lines and lift times so that people get their skiing in in a shorter amount of time each day.  Similar to what Wachusett implemented last year, the average skier does not need or use a full 8 hour ski day, in reality it is more like a 4 hour ski day.  
2- The replacement of older detachables is happening rapidly.  Just in this announcement, 5 older detachables are being replaced.  More and more are going to go in the coming years and 6 packs have become the norm for new lift installs.


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## Whitey (Sep 24, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Mount Snow:
> I bet a Challenger replacement is coming soon on the North Face with either a quad or 6.



I spoke to some people who know what they are talking about with these lifts - it seems the issue with the North Face lifts is that because the base at North Face has no way to ski out of it (you have to take a lift to get out of there) there is some state/insurance/something requirement that there has to be 2 lifts out of there so the area can still be evacuated if one lift goes down.    

I always figured that some day they would tear both of those old lifts out and install a HSQ.   But I think it's more complicated than that.    If they do a HSQ at North Face they would probably have to do something like the Beartrap lift - a short, lightly used lift that can take you up and out of that area and back to the main mountain.  Probably something that dumps you out near where the Canyon lift ends.  Or it may make more sense to just keep one of the two old North Face lifts running and install a HSQ.    But those lifts are old and I think they are struggling with figuring this out as "just keep one of the old lifts going" isn't necessarily sustainable.     So any lift upgrades at North Face will almost definitely have to be 2 new lifts, not just one.


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## mbedle (Sep 24, 2021)

I can't figure out how they plan to lower the bottom terminal of the mountain triple to the small parking area beside the lodge. I guess they will relocate the tree-top adventure park and the power lines. Sucks to also see that parking lot disappear. The life alignment also puts the bottom terminal in the woods off the parking area, pretty close to the creek. Seems like a lot of additional work, to just remove the climb up the hill. The climb to the triple is not nearly as bad as the climb to the quad or using the stairs.


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## xlr8r (Sep 24, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I spoke to some people who know what they are talking about with these lifts - it seems the issue with the North Face lifts is that because the base at North Face has no way to ski out of it (you have to take a lift to get out of there) there is some state/insurance/something requirement that there has to be 2 lifts out of there so the area can still be evacuated if one lift goes down.
> 
> I always figured that some day they would tear both of those old lifts out and install a HSQ.   But I think it's more complicated than that.    If they do a HSQ at North Face they would probably have to do something like the Beartrap lift - a short, lightly used lift that can take you up and out of that area and back to the main mountain.  Probably something that dumps you out near where the Canyon lift ends.  Or it may make more sense to just keep one of the two old North Face lifts running and install a HSQ.    But those lifts are old and I think they are struggling with figuring this out as "just keep one of the old lifts going" isn't necessarily sustainable.     So any lift upgrades at North Face will almost definitely have to be 2 new lifts, not just one.





mbedle said:


> I can't figure out how they plan to lower the bottom terminal of the mountain triple to the small parking area beside the lodge. I guess they will relocate the tree-top adventure park and the power lines. Sucks to also see that parking lot disappear. The life alignment also puts the bottom terminal in the woods off the parking area, pretty close to the creek. Seems like a lot of additional work, to just remove the climb up the hill. The climb to the triple is not nearly as bad as the climb to the quad or using the stairs.


When a new lift is put in on Northface, one of the existing lifts will remain as a backup for this reason.  I bet Challenger gets replaced as it is a fully Yan lift and slightly older.  Outpost would then be kept as the backup lift.


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## ne_skier (Sep 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> You won't see too many more.  Borvig has a really bad safety record the past decade on lifts that should not have failed that young.  Sugarloaf Spillway and King Pine.  Tussey Mountain PA.  With these things you never know if it's maintenance or an inherent flaw but the Borvig name has been the one constant.


To be fair, Spillway can be blamed more on the Sugarloaf maintenance staff rather than the manufacturer itself. Although they are classic lifts, Borvig weren’t exactly built to last at the same degree as Riblet and Hall lifts.


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## ss20 (Sep 24, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I spoke to some people who know what they are talking about with these lifts - it seems the issue with the North Face lifts is that because the base at North Face has no way to ski out of it (you have to take a lift to get out of there) there is some state/insurance/something requirement that there has to be 2 lifts out of there so the area can still be evacuated if one lift goes down.
> 
> I always figured that some day they would tear both of those old lifts out and install a HSQ.   But I think it's more complicated than that.    If they do a HSQ at North Face they would probably have to do something like the Beartrap lift - a short, lightly used lift that can take you up and out of that area and back to the main mountain.  Probably something that dumps you out near where the Canyon lift ends.  Or it may make more sense to just keep one of the two old North Face lifts running and install a HSQ.    But those lifts are old and I think they are struggling with figuring this out as "just keep one of the old lifts going" isn't necessarily sustainable.     So any lift upgrades at North Face will almost definitely have to be 2 new lifts, not just one.



I've never heard of that regulation.  The base of Okemo's South Face was a dead-end with one lift out for decades (still is the only way out of that side of the hill).  Middlebury's backside also requires a lift ride out.  Perhaps these areas are exempt because there's road access nearby?  Not calling you a liar...just thinking out loud.  

The Outpost Triple is the definition of a "Frankenlift" but many of its components are newer than Challenger.  Challenger has also been their "daily driver" for a lonnng time with Outpost running backup as needed, so I'm sure Outpost has fewer hours on it.  I've heard, from the Peak's era, that they want to change where a Challenger replacement lift would unload so they'd have more room to expand the Summit Lodge or build a new one.  That'd require cutting down trees using a slightly modified lift line or using the Outpost lift line when a HSQ comes.


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## ss20 (Sep 24, 2021)

Also I knew this was never going to happen, but a Sundance base-to-summit lift would be so cool and really increase the viability of people starting their day at Sundance.  That'd be a 8,000'+ long monster of a lift.  

In my fantasy world. that happens, Canyon is a six pack, Sunbrook/North Face HSQ's.  Then you'd have enough capacity on the Main Face and the other sides to be able to remove the Grand Summit.  Of course, this was all based on my skiing there pre-Vail.


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## p_levert (Sep 24, 2021)

urungus said:


> Finally, some investment in their eastern resorts, its too bad there is no replacement for the Attitash Summit Triple, because that lift has become sort of the poster child for Vails neglect.  This year I am going to try to ski Hackett‘s Highway under the Stowe Mountain triple for first time, just in case they eff it up while installing new lift, like what happened at Gore recently.



Hackett's Highway skis easier than it looks.  It's just a really fun run, so go for it.

I don't ski much at Stowe these days, but I think the replacement of the triple is a bad move.  I think all ski areas should keep a mix of high speed and fixed grip lifts.  The fixed grip lifts are great on cold, windy days and sometimes a slow ride up is just what you need to recuperate.  I was also disappointed to see the replacement of the Green Ridge triple at Okemo with a HSQ.  But, again, I mostly ski the Ikon resorts, so not greatly impacted.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2021)

mbedle said:


> I can't figure out how they plan to lower the bottom terminal of the mountain triple to the small parking area beside the lodge. I guess they will relocate the tree-top adventure park and the power lines. Sucks to also see that parking lot disappear. The life alignment also puts the bottom terminal in the woods off the parking area, pretty close to the creek. Seems like a lot of additional work, to just remove the climb up the hill. The climb to the triple is not nearly as bad as the climb to the quad or using the stairs.



Maybe they move the tree top park over to Spruce or near the Gondola base where a higher concentration of their summer activities are?  

I agree it's not as bad to get to the triple as the quad, but it's still a worse slog to a lift than most ski areas have from a base lodge in the East.  They probably receive quite a bit of negative feedback on guest service surveys regarding the Mansfield layout.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2021)

Damn, speaking of Stowe's Zipline.

Awful









						Stowe Mountain Resort employee dies in zip line crash
					

A Stowe Mountain Resort employee died last week while riding on the resort’s zip line as part of his job.




					www.vtcng.com


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## Smellytele (Sep 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I've never heard of that regulation.  The base of Okemo's South Face was a dead-end with one lift out for decades (still is the only way out of that side of the hill).  Middlebury's backside also requires a lift ride out.  Perhaps these areas are exempt because there's road access nearby?  Not calling you a liar...just thinking out loud.
> 
> The Outpost Triple is the definition of a "Frankenlift" but many of its components are newer than Challenger.  Challenger has also been their "daily driver" for a lonnng time with Outpost running backup as needed, so I'm sure Outpost has fewer hours on it.  I've heard, from the Peak's era, that they want to change where a Challenger replacement lift would unload so they'd have more room to expand the Summit Lodge or build a new one.  That'd require cutting down trees using a slightly modified lift line or using the Outpost lift line when a HSQ comes.


Middlebury’s “Backside” is right next to the road so you can technically get out if the lift dies.


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## Zand (Sep 24, 2021)

When I was in high school and a total moron we used to jump off the Stowe triple above Hacketts Highway where it gets pretty low to the ground. Used to lap it over and over and jump every time.

Guess that practice will probably no longer be viable


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## Edd (Sep 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Damn, speaking of Stowe's Zipline.
> 
> Awful
> 
> ...


Weird that stuff is usually angled so that you’re going slow when you approach a platform.


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## slatham (Sep 24, 2021)

Re: Stowe Triple to 6 pack. They say the base terminal will be "lower". Thats a relative term and doesn't mean to the parking lot. They may just move from uphill of Tyro to downhill of Tyro, and still uphill of tree course and power lines. Total speculation.

I am in full agreement that the triple needed replacement. Once can argue 4 vs 6, but it needs to be replaced with a HS lift to take load off of the Front 4 HSQ. So many people ride the HSQ to access intermediate terrain simply because they will not ride an old, fixed grip "anything". 

So sorry to hear of the zip line accident. Tragic. RIP.


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## Cobbold (Sep 24, 2021)

tragic News about the Stowe employee, thoughts and prayers go out to him and his family.

what does the attitash crowd think of the changes at attitash?


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## dblskifanatic (Sep 24, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Vail will suck until they replace the attitash triple.



*Attitash*​Let me stop you right there, because I know what you’re thinking. It’s what everyone is thinking: why not replace the Summit Triple? It’s old. It’s unreliable. You can watch _Dances With Wolves _from beginning to end on the ride to the top. Why not replace it with… something?

First: it serves a complicated piece of terrain. The summit is high and tight, with just three trails branching off the terminal. The basic rule for lift-to-trail ratio is one seat for each trail. Second, Peak made substantial repairs in 2019 after a multi-month shutdown cut off the summit for a large portion of the season:




Attitash Mountain @AttitashResort
Yup, the summit triple is fixed and ready for winter. #attitash #summitaccess #ontowinter 
October 3rd 2019
2 Retweets22 Likes
For now, Vail will replace the 48-year-old East and West Double Doubles with a fixed-grip quad. This means something, Attitash skiers. It means Vail is committed to the mountain long-term.

They will get to the Summit Triple. There are options aside from replacing the full top-to-bottom lift. How about putting a high-speed six in place of the Flying Yankee quad, and a new triple or fixed-grip quad running from mid-mountain to the summit? Or leave Flying Yankee in place and split the summit lift with a pair of quads, a high-speed at the bottom and a fixed-grip up top?

They will figure out something great. In the meantime, they could win over a few locals by letting them skin to the top when the triple does inevitably break down again.


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## thebigo (Sep 24, 2021)

Word is attitash repaired the snowmaking on wilfreds this summer. I suspect they want to see how the mountain flows with a groomed wilfreds before committing to a summit replacement. The omission of sunapee is more shocking than the attitash triple. Sunapee needs a six on the main face and the terrain expansion. Wildcat and crotched do not need lifts, wildcat needs to be able to blow top to bottom, crotched needs a green trail off the summit.

Other factor to consider at attitash, they own the land where the new quad will be installed, summit triple is on forest service land.


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## Edd (Sep 24, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Word is attitash repaired the snowmaking on wilfreds this summer.


That’s great news, they should make a point to blast the f*** out of that. I’d agree it’s important to keep that trail open if capacity to the summit is increased.


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## snoseek (Sep 24, 2021)

It is nice to see them spend something back east.

I'm hoping they get a better handle on day to day operations this year. We will see


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## Newpylong (Sep 24, 2021)

I think a HSQ is a better fit to replace Tumbleweed and Sundance triples. Even with snowmaking, that is going to be hard to find the downhill capacity to handle a HS6.  If there is, should there be though? Long John/Deer Run is already Vermont's version of Belt Parkway especially at the lift terminus. Maybe will be fine with wider chair spacing. Expect to see snowmaking installed on Shoot Out, Hop, High Traverse and Shooting Star along with the lift. I guess that seals the fate of Peak's Master Plan of decommissioning the Sundance base area, which was going to be a bad move anyway.

No need for any changes to the North Face really. Having both of those redundant lifts works well and the rides are relatively short.

I would expect to see the Sunbrook HSQ operate daily and the Beartrap only weekends. They lose 1 trail mid-week, oh well.

Can't comment on Stowe, only been a few times

As for Attitash, that is going to be a really hard sell to their customers, who have waited literally a decade+ to get rid of that Triple. The Lift department (specifically mechanical) is going to like that move more than anyone else. I will ask around about Wilfred's but all of my contacts there left when Vail came in. The only reason the snowmaking didn't work there was because an (inexperienced) Boyd son froze the line, threw a hissy fit, so they removed the feed from the valve station to the trail. It was all old victaulic and needed to be replaced.


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## Mum skier (Sep 24, 2021)

Yeah, what happened to the planned large Sunapee expansion. I know that was not a one year plan but was hoping to see some planning and roll out starting.  That has to be their most popular and (I assume) financially successful NH mountain. And also one with an fairly obvious expansion option.  Disappointed to not see any start there.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2021)

Maybe the thought process is if they don't expand Sunapee more people will go to their larger resorts in VT and spend the night.  

That kind of terrain expansion at Sunapee will really make the place ski like a large ski area vs mid sized.  At that point, what's the incentive to drive an hour further from Boston to Snow or Okemo for essentially the same terrain. 

Hope it does happen though.


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## thebigo (Sep 24, 2021)

I would have to look but silverlode may fit the sunapee profile.

Edit:

Sunapee: 1405 / 6057
Silverlode: 1322 / 5370

Not a perfect fit, someone more knowledgeable than me may know if it would work.

One of the hsdq being removed may fit the attitash profile, I am too lazy to look.


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I would have to look but silverlode may fit the sunapee profile.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


That silverlode lift has lots of hours on it though...


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## machski (Sep 24, 2021)

Mum skier said:


> Yeah, what happened to the planned large Sunapee expansion. I know that was not a one year plan but was hoping to see some planning and roll out starting.  That has to be their most popular and (I assume) financially successful NH mountain. And also one with an fairly obvious expansion option.  Disappointed to not see any start there.


Remember with Sunapee, they don't own the land, it is leased from NH parks.  So when ot comes to imprvements at Sunapee, doubt Vail can snap their fingers and make things happen on their timeline exclusively.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> They probably receive quite a bit of negative feedback on guest service surveys regarding the Mansfield layout.



Same as it ever was. Muffy & Chase didnt like it in the 90s, I'm sure they dont like it in 2021 either.


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## Pez (Sep 25, 2021)

if you can't hoof it, you don't deserve it.


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## ctdubl07 (Sep 25, 2021)

To a prior comment about Sundance adding traffic to LongJohn, not necessarily sure that is true as you'd need more people in general coming to the mtn for that to happen. LJ users are there...now many just move from the MB area and start a little further south on LJ than had they taken either of the summit lifts. If they do move, then it might actually improve the quality of the snow on upper LJ for a longer portion of the day which I always see has a huge hazard for learners because the trail doesnt hold snow and is a sheet of ice by noon each day from the Summit thru to the top of sundance.

Sunbrook was such a long rumored upgrade (mostly wish based) but I think it came into sight once you saw the snow making upgrades and trail clearing 2 seasons ago...plus VR's bags o cash. It will improve the overall experience for us regulars but also people who are infrequent visitors. After my kids finish their days, the woods are often a target for a last minute dip before the run home...now it will become a great hot lap spot. Their are a few little known woods stashes over there kids love.

The folks who own at Seasons gotta love the Sundance news but another big winner here are the programs who can get their kids up faster without clogging the Main areas plus put people down into Sunbrook. Day trippers can now also shoot in the lower resort entrance and right up into Sundance parking lot and have a fast start if they arrive early enough.

I think the debate on upgrades to NF lift will largely hinge here on you all not wanting fast lifts that add people but as an aging boarder, I would love one day to see the off load ramps improved....!!

And I think any sign of future hospitality based improvements might come in the form of an upgrade to Heavy Metal as a way to alleviate the growing crowds at Carinthia if VR ever fulfills Peaks development plan over there.

As a homeowner and frankly fan of what Vail does, Im glad I didnt have to post this in the Vsucks thread as I think this is terrific news


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## drjeff (Sep 25, 2021)

ctdubl07 said:


> To a prior comment about Sundance adding traffic to LongJohn, not necessarily sure that is true as you'd need more people in general coming to the mtn for that to happen. LJ users are there...now many just move from the MB area and start a little further south on LJ than had they taken either of the summit lifts. If they do move, then it might actually improve the quality of the snow on upper LJ for a longer portion of the day which I always see has a huge hazard for learners because the trail doesnt hold snow and is a sheet of ice by noon each day from the Summit thru to the top of sundance.
> 
> Sunbrook was such a long rumored upgrade (mostly wish based) but I think it came into sight once you saw the snow making upgrades and trail clearing 2 seasons ago...plus VR's bags o cash. It will improve the overall experience for us regulars but also people who are infrequent visitors. After my kids finish their days, the woods are often a target for a last minute dip before the run home...now it will become a great hot lap spot. Their are a few little known woods stashes over there kids love.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%!

Once folks who typically would lap Long John, Shootout, Hop, Ridge, Uncles, and if they open the top of High Traverse, even South Bowl, then those folks can lap the new 6 pack and avoid having to go back to the main base area.

This is a longtime wish of mine for a Mount Snow lift upgrade, and my hunch is that many people who question the reasoning behind this upgrade will end up quickly seeing the benefit with less base area lift crowding! 

Love this investment by Vail into Mount Snow


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## ne_skier (Sep 25, 2021)

Slightly off topic, does Mount Snow ever run the Seasons lift?


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## MikeW (Sep 25, 2021)

I wish they would run it-It's really an excellent Bunny hill for first timers.


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## icecoast1 (Sep 25, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Slightly off topic, does Mount Snow ever run the Seasons lift?


Weekends and holidays


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## drjeff (Sep 25, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Weekends and holidays


When they have the staff to operate it


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## icecoast1 (Sep 25, 2021)

drjeff said:


> When they have the staff to operate it


That may be never this season


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## Vince (Sep 25, 2021)

Great to see the commitment to the Eastern ski resorts. Hopefully this means a bigger commitment to snow making in the upcoming season. I do think that with all these cheap Epic passes sold. In the future we will see a lot of pay parking and some sort of a fast pass system like the amusement parks have.


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## jaytrem (Sep 25, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> That may be never this season


It was close to never last season.  Wasn't really needed with no bus groups.  I think I saw it running once when Tumbleweed was having issues.  Might have been the prior year though.  That is my preferred 1st lift ride of the day, was nice when it used to open at 8, much quicker way to get over to the high speeds.  Of course the new lift will take care of that problem.


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## ctdubl07 (Sep 25, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> That may be never this season


I think theres merit in stating that VR has started to allow the East Coast resorts, ex here Mount Snow, to apply learned local knowledge (back) into its processes. The decision to transition the Snow Lake lodge into housing and the reversal on hiring under 16, I think could be considered them beginning to address how their corporate (west resorts) needs and processes may not be best for elsewhere. Is it a fix? No but I do think its a demonstration of learned/experiential adaption. Blend those types of changes with more open access labor from to student visas and a higher minimum wage and they might overcome much of the service frustration we all experienced last year.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 25, 2021)

Maybe in VT.  Doubtful in NH.  They mothballed NH operations for the most part this summer.  I will be very surprised if I read about substantial staffing improvements at their NH resorts this season.


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## drjeff (Sep 25, 2021)

Vince said:


> Great to see the commitment to the Eastern ski resorts. Hopefully this means a bigger commitment to snow making in the upcoming season. I do think that with all these cheap Epic passes sold. In the future we will see a lot of pay parking and some sort of a fast pass system like the amusement parks have.



Rumor starting to circulate among some of my Mount Snow friends is that those who had parking season passes last season may be offered the opportunity to purchase a parking season pass for this year, and potentially based on the number sold, some parking season passes may be made available for purchase by Epic Passholders...

Only time will tell if there's any truth to that


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## RISkier (Sep 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe they move the tree top park over to Spruce or near the Gondola base where a higher concentration of their summer activities are?
> 
> I agree it's not as bad to get to the triple as the quad, but it's still a worse slog to a lift than most ski areas have from a base lodge in the East.  They probably receive quite a bit of negative feedback on guest service surveys regarding the Mansfield layout.



The lift layout at Stowe seems intentionally designed to make access as difficult as possible. If starting at the Mansfield base lodge you need to negotiate coronary event hill to get to either the quad or triple. If you want to boot up at Spruce you need to park, ride the lift over to Spruce, then ride the lift back. It's a bit of a skate to get from the Over Easy to the quad. The Midway Lodge is well above the gondi loading area and with the new parking lots at the Midway lodge it's more of a PITA just to ski down to the Gondola. The trails below Crossover and to the skier's right of the Triple are not skied much because you have to go up hill to get to the quad. If you're skiing on the 4-Runner side of Mansfield there are no convenient bathrooms other than at the Octagon; who wants to deal with heart attack hill just to pee. Or to get a coffee, or have lunch, or... The lift at the Toll House area has to be in the conversation for slowest lift in the world. There is some lovely beginner friendly terrain over there. But it's not very accessible. I like skiing at Stowe but they layout is anything but convenient. Still, I have really mixed feelings about taking out the Triple and putting in a 6-pack from the base. Riding the Triple on busy days was always a way to avoid a lot of the busiest traffic.


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## machski (Sep 28, 2021)

RISkier said:


> The lift layout at Stowe seems intentionally designed to make access as difficult as possible. If starting at the Mansfield base lodge you need to negotiate coronary event hill to get to either the quad or triple. If you want to boot up at Spruce you need to park, ride the lift over to Spruce, then ride the lift back. It's a bit of a skate to get from the Over Easy to the quad. The Midway Lodge is well above the gondi loading area and with the new parking lots at the Midway lodge it's more of a PITA just to ski down to the Gondola. The trails below Crossover and to the skier's right of the Triple are not skied much because you have to go up hill to get to the quad. If you're skiing on the 4-Runner side of Mansfield there are no convenient bathrooms other than at the Octagon; who wants to deal with heart attack hill just to pee. Or to get a coffee, or have lunch, or... The lift at the Toll House area has to be in the conversation for slowest lift in the world. There is some lovely beginner friendly terrain over there. But it's not very accessible. I like skiing at Stowe but they layout is anything but convenient. Still, I have really mixed feelings about taking out the Triple and putting in a 6-pack from the base. Riding the Triple on busy days was always a way to avoid a lot of the busiest traffic.


True on the Triple, but I bet with a HSQ and a HSS, the Double will be all but empty on the busiest days.  And that accesses much better terrain than the Triple (granted, longer ride).  You are right, Mansfield lodge is in an odd location but I don't ever see that changing with the historical aspect of it.  Midway is odd but that is the old Gondol's base terminal redesigned into a lodge when the current Gondi went in and got extended down.  The original Gondi was even more of a PIA to get to/from Forerunner and Mansfield Lodge.


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## RISkier (Sep 28, 2021)

machski said:


> True on the Triple, but I bet with a HSQ and a HSS, the Double will be all but empty on the busiest days.  And that accesses much better terrain than the Triple (granted, longer ride).  You are right, Mansfield lodge is in an odd location but I don't ever see that changing with the historical aspect of it.  Midway is odd but that is the old Gondol's base terminal redesigned into a lodge when the current Gondi went in and got extended down.  The original Gondi was even more of a PIA to get to/from Forerunner and Mansfield Lodge.


Never skied Stowe prior to the current gondi. Given the location it makes sense that Midway was the base of the old gondola. I do recall a drag lift from not too far from the Mansfield side Easy Over station that went up relatively close to the Midway Lodge. I also don't think they can do much to modernize the Mansfield base lodge.


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## kingslug (Sep 28, 2021)

The hill isn't too bad..you can take the stairs..I never minded it..its just part of the experience..Stowe was built in the age of climbing ..everything.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 28, 2021)

if the hill from the lodge to the forerunner, that has stairs, really causes you that much trouble, you should probably pay greater attention to your general physical fitness.


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## machski (Sep 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The hill isn't too bad..you can take the stairs..I never minded it..its just part of the experience..Stowe was built in the age of climbing ..everything.


Not to mention in the age of leather ski boots before rigid plastic boots were ever dreamt of.


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## Edd (Sep 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The hill isn't too bad..you can take the stairs..I never minded it..its just part of the experience..Stowe was built in the age of climbing ..everything.





KustyTheKlown said:


> if the hill from the lodge to the forerunner, that has stairs, really causes you that much trouble, you should probably pay greater attention to your general physical fitness.


Yeah, sure. It’s more annoying than anything. But Joe Dad McWeekender is not looking for annoyances. I can see trying to address it.


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 28, 2021)

my wife hates the hill.   I tell her its part of the historical preservation of how skiing once was!


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## drjeff (Sep 28, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> my wife hates the hill.   I tell her its part of the historical preservation of how skiing once was!


Just tell her that it's a better workout than Crossfit!   

That's how in the ski racing community we've gotten way too many to count, newbie ski racer parents to help roll b-netting after the conclusion of a race!!


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## kingslug (Sep 28, 2021)

And..it can be fun to ski right to your car when conditions allow!


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## kingslug (Sep 28, 2021)

Try skating around Gore to get to certain lifts...


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## abc (Sep 28, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if the hill from the lodge to the forerunner, that has stairs, really causes you that much trouble, you should probably pay greater attention to your general physical fitness.


I don't find the stairs "that much trouble". That doesn't mean I like it though. Add to the fact parking near the Mansfield lodge is the first to fill up (artifact of the 4-runner being the first life to spin).

So when there's alternatives, I'd take the alternative. So far, I've opted to park in the lots near Midway lodge, which is above the Gondi and ski down to the Four Runner. It requires a bit of skating, which I actually quite enjoy. I don't enjoy climbing stairs half as much, carrying skis and in ski boot notwithstanding.  

With the newly relocated triple, it's now another new alternative.


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## Mum skier (Sep 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> And..it can be fun to ski right to your car when conditions allow!


Especially if we are all still having to boot up at our cars. Ski to car, take skis and boots off, climb in car and off you go. Avoids the kids seeing the waffle cabin and insisting you stand in line for a hour for a waffle......


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2021)

Stowe is kinda interesting.  It's both great for it's lift to parking layout and also one of the worst setups.

If you are just there to ski, it's hard to beat the ski in, ski out parking of Midway.  Even on the Forerunner side, parking near the maintenance building by the Over Easy is also an easy walk and skate to the quad.

If you are a family with young children, Stowe positively sucks.  You're either hoofing it uphill to the Midway lodge, hoofing it up to the Over Easy or hoofing it from the Mansfield lodge to the lifts.  I never appreciated just how bad all that is until two seasons ago when I took my four year old there for a ski vacation.   One of the worst setups ever if you have young kids.


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## kendo (Sep 28, 2021)

Replace the Mansfield stairs with an escalator ala Beaver Creek. I'm sure the approvals would sail right thru the local review process!  

I've never seen Lookout double running on the many weekdays that I'm there.  I'd love an alternative to access the summit when they're blowing Liftline to recover from weekend use or building base for spring use.


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## kingslug (Sep 29, 2021)

If Stowe is the same shitshow it was last season ..I'll be at SB a lot more.


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## snoseek (Sep 29, 2021)

XTski said:


> How was Stowe midweek?


The times I went the lines were pretty long for a midweek day but that had alot to do with them not filling chairs


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## drjeff (Sep 29, 2021)

XTski said:


> How was Stowe midweek?



Also, as we all know last year, with so many kids having a remote school situation to complement so many of their parents having a remote work situation, the ability for families to get on the slopes midweek was much greater than it likely will be this season, short of the standard Holiday periods.

Just reason #1001 why last season gets a bunch of asterik's next to it when trying to compare it to others


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## kingslug (Sep 29, 2021)

It was crowded enough that I paid full price 4 x at Sugarbush...midweek to have some peace and quiet to go with my powder.


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## hovercraft (Sep 29, 2021)

kingslug said:


> If Stowe is the same shitshow it was last season ..I'll be at SB a lot more.


I think it will be a lot different this year with kids back to school parents not working remote and both the Gondi and the quad opening at the same time should take the pressure off that we experienced last year.


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## Whitey (Sep 30, 2021)

hovercraft said:


> I think it will be a lot different this year with kids back to school parents not working remote and both the Gondi and the quad opening at the same time should take the pressure off that we experienced last year.


Being able to fully load lifts will be a big factor this year (if they allow that).   I think that part got really underestimated last year.   If you were only using 50% of your lift capacity last year, you can double the # of skiers you carry this year.


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## drjeff (Sep 30, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Being able to fully load lifts will be a big factor this year (if they allow that).   I think that part got really underestimated last year.   If you were only using 50% of your lift capacity last year, you can double the # of skiers you carry this year.



It sounds like that unless local public health authorities have issues with fully loaded lifts this coming season, that Vail's plan is to load every lift to full capacity...

I can already see the "Karen and Ken" videos poppping up on say Unofficial Networks with "lift line rage" from folks who refuse to ride a full lift this season....


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## ss20 (Sep 30, 2021)

Whitey said:


> Being able to fully load lifts will be a big factor this year (if they allow that).   I think that part got really underestimated last year.   If you were only using 50% of your lift capacity last year, you can double the # of skiers you carry this year.



In reality it was more than 50% given groups could ride up together.  In my personal travels to me it seemed quad chairs averaged 2.5-2.75 people per chair.


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## RISkier (Sep 30, 2021)

snoseek said:


> The times I went the lines were pretty long for a midweek day but that had alot to do with them not filling chairs



That was my impression when we skied there midweek. The line at the quad often looked formidable. However, the queue was 1-sided and a lot of folks were practicing at least some level of distancing. At least when I was there the wait times weren't that bad. Had they been filling the chairs wait times would've been considerably shorter. I don't think I skied there a single weekend or holiday day.


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## hovercraft (Sep 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> In reality it was more than 50% given groups could ride up together.  In my personal travels to me it seemed quad chairs averaged 2.5-2.75 people per chair.


Near the end of the season a person from management said they averaged 2.2 per chair……


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## ss20 (Sep 30, 2021)

hovercraft said:


> Near the end of the season a person from management said they averaged 2.2 per chair……



I believe it.  It certainly varies mountain-to-mountain.  MRG with the single and all its doubles  would've seen very little actual capacity reduction compared to a mountain with a bunch of high capacity chairs.


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## eatskisleep (Oct 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe in VT.  Doubtful in NH.  They mothballed NH operations for the most part this summer.  I will be very surprised if I read about substantial staffing improvements at their NH resorts this season.


If anything staffing is looking worse with the whole “vaccine mandate” going on. Short staffed before, even shorter staffed now.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 4, 2021)

kendo said:


> 6 at Stowe will help a lot when the quad is on wind holds.
> 
> Thought they'd replace the double to get more top access but might have same exposure to wind and would be more congestion on Lord.


Why not a quad?  6 pack seems over kill and will really load up those trails


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## 2Planker (Oct 4, 2021)

eatskisleep said:


> If anything staffing is looking worse with the whole “vaccine mandate” going on. Short staffed before, even shorter staffed now.


If you're only open 3-4 days/week, who would really want that job ??


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## ne_skier (Oct 4, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> Why not a quad?  6 pack seems over kill and will really load up those trails


Yeah, I was honestly surprised when they went with a 6 pack, I don't know Stowe too well, and while I heard that the triple didn't adequately serve that terrain I can't imagine it wouldn't be overloaded by a 6 pack. Also will be interesting to see how they manage to reconfigure the lift to avoid the hike. I'll leave further commentary to actual Stowe skiers, if I find myself up there I'd likely be at Smuggs.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 4, 2021)

I don't think the Six will be that big of a deal.  The terrain it accesses is quite significant to spread people out.


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## raisingarizona (Oct 4, 2021)

RISkier said:


> The lift layout at Stowe seems intentionally designed to make access as difficult as possible. If starting at the Mansfield base lodge you need to negotiate coronary event hill to get to either the quad or triple. If you want to boot up at Spruce you need to park, ride the lift over to Spruce, then ride the lift back. It's a bit of a skate to get from the Over Easy to the quad. The Midway Lodge is well above the gondi loading area and with the new parking lots at the Midway lodge it's more of a PITA just to ski down to the Gondola. The trails below Crossover and to the skier's right of the Triple are not skied much because you have to go up hill to get to the quad. If you're skiing on the 4-Runner side of Mansfield there are no convenient bathrooms other than at the Octagon; who wants to deal with heart attack hill just to pee. Or to get a coffee, or have lunch, or... The lift at the Toll House area has to be in the conversation for slowest lift in the world. There is some lovely beginner friendly terrain over there. But it's not very accessible. I like skiing at Stowe but they layout is anything but convenient. Still, I have really mixed feelings about taking out the Triple and putting in a 6-pack from the base. Riding the Triple on busy days was always a way to avoid a lot of the busiest traffic.


Walking up and down that hill more often might actually help you from getting that heart attack you’re talking about.


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## Newpylong (Oct 5, 2021)

At Stowe, the triple while being newer, is by far the better location for a new lift. Much more downhill capacity.


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't think the Six will be that big of a deal.  The terrain it accesses is quite significant to spread people out.





Newpylong said:


> At Stowe, the triple while being newer, is by far the better location for a new lift. Much more downhill capacity.




I don't think folks realize how much terrain there is over there.  It would be nice to go a little higher on the hill, but that's a significant change that would be difficult at best to permit.  Also, there really isn't anywhere to extend it without changing the line which seems unnecessary and expensive   If the Quad still ends up being super busy, I'm sure Vail will switch that out to a six pack at some point.  I don't love that because there are really only 3 ways to go off the top of the quad and they already see a lot of traffic.

While I hate that the 4 Runner won't open at 7:30 on the weekends, I do think that its a good idea to open both the 4 Runner and the Gondola at the same time.  That will undoubtedly spread things out.


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## kingslug (Oct 5, 2021)

Yes..That will be a game changer. As soon as the gondi opened the quad line was cut in half.


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 5, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Yeah, I was honestly surprised when they went with a 6 pack, I don't know Stowe too well, and while I heard that the triple didn't adequately serve that terrain I can't imagine it wouldn't be overloaded by a 6 pack. Also will be interesting to see how they manage to reconfigure the lift to avoid the hike. I'll leave further commentary to actual Stowe skiers, if I find myself up there I'd likely be at Smuggs.



stop calling a 50 foot hill from the lodge to the lift a 'hike'. for fucks sake.


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## raisingarizona (Oct 5, 2021)

O


KustyTheKlown said:


> stop calling a 50 foot hill from the lodge to the lift a 'hike'. for fucks sake.


Out here in the west there are days where walking, skinning and side stepping for thousands of feet, even miles are part of every lap. 

We just call that skiing.


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## ne_skier (Oct 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> stop calling a 50 foot hill from the lodge to the lift a 'hike'. for fucks sake.


Not even complaining about it lmao, I (at least in my view) made the point clear I hadn't been to Stowe and was simply citing the hill, hike, walk, catwalk, distance, or whatever other term I could have pulled out of my ass as something that seems to be a nuisance to a few people here. If you have a problem with it I'm not really the guy to go to.


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## kingslug (Oct 6, 2021)

Its such a small hike.like really small. If they put in an escalator...I'm out.... LOL......


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## ss20 (Oct 6, 2021)

I remember 10ish years ago my buddy and I were at Okemo at the main base area.  I jokingly complained to him about all the stairs they have in that base as we were lugging our gear up.  An ambassador comes running over and apologizes and gives me a voucher to use for a free hot chocolate or coffee.  

Say what you want about Okemo but the Mueller's knew how to run a resort.  

And fuck stairs at ski resorts.  I have no idea why 50% of ski resort lodges still have bathrooms in the basement or upstairs and nothing on the main floor.


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## kancamagus (Oct 6, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Yeah, I was honestly surprised when they went with a 6 pack, I don't know Stowe too well, and while I heard that the triple didn't adequately serve that terrain I can't imagine it wouldn't be overloaded by a 6 pack. Also will be interesting to see how they manage to reconfigure the lift to avoid the hike. I'll leave further commentary to actual Stowe skiers, if I find myself up there I'd likely be at Smuggs.


A lot of places now are installing 6-pack lifts with wider chair spacing, so the uphill capacity is roughly the same as a quad. While I can’t comment on Stowe specifically, wider chair spacing helps ensure there are fewer loading issues, and the heavier 6-pack chairs handle windy conditions better than quads.

At least, these are the reasons Arapahoe Basin cited when they chose a 6-pack instead of HSQ to replace the Lenawee Triple.


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## ne_skier (Oct 6, 2021)

ss20 said:


> And fuck stairs at ski resorts.  I have no idea why 50% of ski resort lodges still have bathrooms in the basement or upstairs and nothing on the main floor.


Walking up the stairs in the Belleayre overlook lodge in ski boots with a food tray in your hands should be an Olympic sport


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## kingslug (Oct 6, 2021)

Did it for many moons..never dropped one. Europe is worse..I remember walking forever in Austria to get anywhere...


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2021)

kancamagus said:


> A lot of places now are installing 6-pack lifts with wider chair spacing, so the uphill capacity is roughly the same as a quad. While I can’t comment on Stowe specifically, wider chair spacing helps ensure there are fewer loading issues, and the heavier 6-pack chairs handle windy conditions better than quads.
> 
> At least, these are the reasons Arapahoe Basin cited when they chose a 6-pack instead of HSQ to replace the Lenawee Triple


Has the 6pack at abasin been installed yet?


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## ne_skier (Oct 6, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Has the 6pack at abasin been installed yet?


Just got announced recently. It will go up in 2022


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## icecoast1 (Oct 6, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I remember 10ish years ago my buddy and I were at Okemo at the main base area.  I jokingly complained to him about all the stairs they have in that base as we were lugging our gear up.  An ambassador comes running over and apologizes and gives me a voucher to use for a free hot chocolate or coffee.
> 
> Say what you want about Okemo but the Mueller's knew how to run a resort.
> 
> And fuck stairs at ski resorts.  I have no idea why 50% of ski resort lodges still have bathrooms in the basement or upstairs and nothing on the main floor.


Those stairs at Okemo are the warning sign you should get back in your car and go somewhere else


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 6, 2021)

No it is is a 2022 intsall.  I'm sure there are many "purists" having a major issue with this.  It makes sense though as this lift will serve access to the front side, Montezuma Bowl, and the Beavers. 

http://arapahoebasin.blogspot.com/2021/10/lenawee-express-6-pack-in-2022.html


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## Smellytele (Oct 6, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Just got announced recently. It will go up in 2022


Saw they took out the other chair that used to go to the ridge as well.


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## raisingarizona (Oct 6, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Did it for many moons..never dropped one. Europe is worse..I remember walking forever in Austria to get anywhere...


Americans need to walk more. Some of these posts prove that.


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## kingslug (Oct 7, 2021)

Totaly...


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## tnt1234 (Oct 7, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> stop calling a 50 foot hill from the lodge to the lift a 'hike'. for fucks sake.


lol.

In fairness, on a frozen solid day, if you have a few kids and an armful of their gear, those hills can be pretty evil!

It's super funny to me that for decades Stowe has had these 'hills' and ice, snow, whatever, they just had their customers deal with it.  Vail buys the place and rather than letting people struggle up some snow, they buy a whole new chair lift....


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## drjeff (Oct 7, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> lol.
> 
> In fairness, on a frozen solid day, if you have a few kids and an armful of their gear, those hills can be pretty evil!
> 
> It's super funny to me that for decades Stowe has had these 'hills' and ice, snow, whatever, they just had their customers deal with it.  Vail buys the place and rather than letting people struggle up some snow, they buy a whole new chair lift....



For every 1 vertical foot you have to climb with your gear, a kid (or kids) in tow with their gear, that should count for about 50 vertical feet for an able bodied person with just their own gear! 

If you've been through it, you get it! If you've never had that experience before, well you better accept that those of us who have been through it are just saying "wait until they get to themselves..."


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## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2021)

drjeff said:


> For every 1 vertical foot you have to climb with your gear, a kid (or kids) in tow with their gear, that should count for about 50 vertical feet for an able bodied person with just their own gear!
> 
> If you've been through it, you get it! If you've never had that experience before, well you better accept that those of us who have been through it are just saying "wait until they get to themselves..."



Yep this.  50:1 is the ratio.   Stowe was home for years and I never really gave the Mansfield stairs or hill climb much thought.  "The climb ain't so bad, good exercise and warmup to start the day etc, etc."

When I introduced my 4 year old to the mountain two seasons ago?  Man did I think that the mountain has a challenging setup for families.  All three options are poor.   You're either trudging up the hill to the lift from the Mansfield lodge, trudging from car up the hill to Midway lodge or trudging from car to Over Easy Gondola to the Spruce lodge.  

In terms of parental Sherpa degree of difficulty,  Stowe rates high on the scale for Eastern ski resorts.  Ease of egress from car to lodge and lodge to lift becomes oh so important when lugging a whiney child's stuff.   

Thankfully it's fairly short lived.  My six year old should be mostly self sufficient this season after 4 years of me being his Sherpa.  But now along comes my 3 year old to the sport this year.  So it starts all over.  I actually held off on starting her until 3 vs age 2 like her brother because my wife doesn't ski and isn't with me to help.  I wanted my son self sufficient prior to starting my daughter. 

Being the Sherpa for two kids at a time just seemed like way too much.  I simply couldn't figure out the calculus of 3 sets of skis, 1 set of poles, my boot bag and a shared boot bag for them with just two shoulders and one pair of hands.  Granted no boot bags to a lodge last season due to Covid, but still seemed too daunting for my sanity. Lol


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## abc (Oct 8, 2021)

But, but, but...

There're some of us who not saddled with kids! We'd prefer Stowe stay family unfriendly to cut down on crowds.  

Just kidding. But you get the drift...


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## ctdubl07 (Oct 8, 2021)

We have 4 kids and theyve always been in programs every wknd. 
When they were first starting out, lived in a community with a shuttle bus. All kids would boot and helmet up to ride bus, no excuses. But I would honestly carry 4 sets of skiis in a HUGE hockey bag, it could fit up to 120cm's, plus Id handle my board. 
Then we moved and now everyone walks to the lift... no one seems to remember, never got any credit.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 8, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I have no idea why 50% of ski resort lodges still have bathrooms in the basement or upstairs and nothing on the main floor.


I think it's because it's cheaper to build the toilet closer to the


deadheadskier said:


> Yep this.  50:1 is the ratio.   Stowe was home for years and I never really gave the Mansfield stairs or hill climb much thought.  "The climb ain't so bad, good exercise and warmup to start the day etc, etc."
> 
> When I introduced my 4 year old to the mountain two seasons ago?  Man did I think that the mountain has a challenging setup for families.  All three options are poor.   You're either trudging up the hill to the lift from the Mansfield lodge, trudging from car up the hill to Midway lodge or trudging from car to Over Easy Gondola to the Spruce lodge.
> 
> ...




So...I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your 6 yo will be self sufficient like 40-50%  of the time.

You can raise that percentage by packing and distributing healthy snacks at a seemingly insane rate, and keeping the sessions short.

It's all totally worth it though.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2021)

Damn you!!!


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## jaytrem (Oct 8, 2021)

tnt1234 said:


> You can raise that percentage by packing and distributing healthy snacks at a seemingly insane rate, and keeping the sessions short.
> 
> It's all totally worth it though.



Some very young kids can (and want to) go all day.  Not sure if it's nature or nurture though.  A ski day was always pretty easy for my kids compared to an amusement park day.  At Coaster events you typically get in an hour or 2 early and stay an hour or 2 after closing.  Talk about exhausting!


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## Smellytele (Oct 9, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Some very young kids can (and want to) go all day.  Not sure if it's nature or nurture though.  A ski day was always pretty easy for my kids compared to an amusement park day.  At Coaster events you typically get in an hour or 2 early and stay an hour or 2 after closing.  Talk about exhausting!


I have 3 sons. All ski well. When they were young 2 would go all day, the middle one not so much. He would always be pokey carrying his stuff. He could ski very fast but chose to usually ski behind and observe the rest of us. The other 2 always had to be the first ones down. He has better form but is way more cautious always taking the easier way down where the others (especially the youngest) will take the path less traveled.


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## kingslug (Oct 11, 2021)

No kids to carry stuff for...just...a wife...


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## skiur (Oct 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> No kids to carry stuff for...just...a wife...


My wife carries her own shit.


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## kingslug (Oct 11, 2021)

Good wife.....
Only place I carry her skis..up the hill at Stowe..but she does hit first chair with me..a major accomplishment on my part!


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## skiur (Oct 11, 2021)

I used to hit first chair, not anymore.  I do hit last chair often.


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## Edd (Oct 11, 2021)

I pretty much go with sun and conditions all season for first/last chair. Better to go early during early season, later in the spring. 

Getting my wife to go early; she will, but she’d always rather not.


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## kingslug (Oct 11, 2021)

It was great when Stowe had the 7:30 chair..now its 8..but I still bet most don't show up until 9..especially with kids.


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## RISkier (Oct 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> It was great when Stowe had the 7:30 chair..now its 8..but I still bet most don't show up until 9..especially with kids.


I think it was mostly an accommodation for Stowe locals with somewhat regular jobs. Lots of folks did a few runs before work. Especially on powder days. Vail isn't going to do that.


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## drjeff (Oct 11, 2021)

RISkier said:


> I think it was mostly an accommodation for Stowe locals with somewhat regular jobs. Lots of folks did a few runs before work. Especially on powder days. Vail isn't going to do that.



I will be curious to hear if Mount Snow continues their 7:30AM AM Express program on Saturdays from early January through mid March for passholders and guests staying at The Grand Summit Hotel this season?


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## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I will be curious to hear if Mount Snow continues their 7:30AM AM Express program on Saturdays from early January through mid March for passholders and guests staying at The Grand Summit Hotel this season?


They may this year but going forward they may not


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## cdskier (Oct 11, 2021)

RISkier said:


> I think it was mostly an accommodation for Stowe locals with somewhat regular jobs. Lots of folks did a few runs before work. Especially on powder days. Vail isn't going to do that.


I'm not sure I buy that argument. Wasn't the 7:30am opening for the Four Runner quad only on weekends and holidays?


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## crystalmountainskier (Oct 11, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> They may this year but going forward they may not



The sky may be blue tomorrow but going forward it may be green.


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## Smellytele (Oct 11, 2021)

crystalmountainskier said:


> The sky may be blue tomorrow but going forward it may be green.


No I don’t think the sky will be green. Yes I was pretty non committal. Leaning toward they will this year and won’t after.


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## kingslug (Oct 12, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure I buy that argument. Wasn't the 7:30am opening for the Four Runner quad only on weekends and holidays?


yup


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## 2Planker (Oct 12, 2021)

skiur said:


> My wife carries her own shit.


My wife caries eveything from the Drop Off area to the racks/lodge as I get to go park the car


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## kingslug (Oct 12, 2021)

I always get the mayors spot..its the hill that gets her..so i carry her tiny skis up..no big deal..and its a good 2 minute workout...


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