# Belleayre closing due to layoffs



## skidbump (Nov 19, 2010)

Belleayre Mountain WILL NOT OPEN if layoffs go through December 31st.

If you care about Belleayre, the place you love, the people who depend on it to survive,and the local economy in general please speak up LOUDLY on our behalf.

Senator John Bonacic 845 344-3311
...Assemblyman Kevin Cahill 845 338-9610
Assemblymen Clifford Crouch 607 648-6080
Albany Times Union 518 454-5694
Kingston Daily Freeman 845 331-5000


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## Rambo (Nov 19, 2010)

What???

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...wcWsDQ&usg=AFQjCNGnSVIdr_PgaSBstpifutWpzV9QsA

HIGHMOUNT — Belleayre Mountain Ski Center Superintendent Tony Lanza told employees on Tuesday that state Department of Environmental Conservation officials have directed him to make “substantial cuts” to the workforce.

*He said he doesn’t expect the staff reductions to affect programming planned for the 2010-11 ski season.*Lanza said rumors that as many as 48 employees will be laid off are inaccurate. “There is no number yet,” he said.

Lanza said the state agency, which owns Belleayre, will determine how many employees have to be cut and that he will decide who specifically gets laid off


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## tjf67 (Nov 19, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Belleayre Mountain WILL NOT OPEN if layoffs go through December 31st.
> 
> If you care about Belleayre, the place you love, the people who depend on it to survive,and the local economy in general please speak up LOUDLY on our behalf.
> 
> ...



Crap like this is annoying.  I say shut it down. I am sick of overpaid lazy on the tit state workers using over dramatic scenarios to try and push there agenda. The hill is Jr. Varsity anyways, even for the catskills


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## Newpylong (Nov 19, 2010)

Bellwhere?


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 19, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Crap like this is annoying.  I say shut it down. I am sick of overpaid lazy on the tit state workers using over dramatic scenarios to try and push there agenda. The hill is Jr. Varsity anyways, even for the catskills



While I don't know about "overpaid on the tit lazy state workers", and I am not a citizen of NY, I am for cuts as hard as they may be.  These people who may or may not lose their jobs are either stupid or naive, somebody in the state ranks are getting canned to meet budget requirements.  This country is in the shitter right now and cuts must be made on all levels of government.  And by them rightfully or wrongly shouting from the hills creating this "dramatic scenerio" they must realize that somebody within the state ranks will get their job axed.  So while people from the outside might feel for these workers plight, they must also realize that if it's not the people at Beleayre, it will be somebody else.  Of course the way political agenda's and ideology work, I guess they could just keep passing the buck down to the taxpayer and raise taxes!  People tend to forget who pays the way for state workers.  All this being said, is Belleayre a stable government run operation or does it run in the red?  I am guessing that if it was making money/breaking even/not losing much this would not be an issue.  Perhaps this is an entity that NY should let go of and see if they can sell it to private investors.


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## millerm277 (Nov 19, 2010)

I wish Belleayre was run like a private resort. Namely, the current layoffs have nothing to do with how much or how little profit (or loss), Belleayre makes, as all of the money they make or lose just goes into the general DEC pot. In the same vein, it seems as though their funding is also dished out without regards as to how successful they are. 

That's not an intelligent way to run a ski area IMO. And of course, this is all from my limited understanding of how their operations work.


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## Gnarcissaro (Nov 19, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> Bellwhere?



Exactly. AKA, "who gives a crap."


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 19, 2010)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Exactly. AKA, "who gives a crap."



I give a crap, it's a great place to ski.


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## catskills (Nov 19, 2010)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Exactly. AKA, "who gives a crap."


180,000 skiers and riders a year think its a nice place to ski.  I have ridden up the chair lift with skiers from Maryland that tell me Belleayre is one of the best kept ski secrets on the east coast.  

If those 180,000 skiers and riders decided to relocate to your favorite place to ski and the lift line doubled in wait time, you might give a crap and have a crap.


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## ZYDECORICH (Nov 19, 2010)

Gnarcissaro said:


> Exactly. AKA, "who gives a crap."



the place is excellent for families on a budget. the beginners area is the best in the area and the step up for learning is perfect. 20 bucks on wed. for a lift ticket.. no crowd... are you kidding me?


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## Gnarcissaro (Nov 19, 2010)

OK, my apologies, I shouldn't lay down a blanket, "who cares." It's always unfortunate to see an area close, people love "their" areas. It's great to have cheap local hills for families and, well, THE LOCALS.

But I'd hazard a guess that a vast majority of skiers and snowboarders in the NE haven't even heard of this place. I'll admit, I hadn't prior to a few weeks ago, and I think I have at least a higher than average lock on, "whats out there." So in that regard, aside from you Joizey, New yawwwk, and mid-atlantic skiers, "who cares." :lol:

And regarding those 180 whatever-thousand skier visits. They won't make it up to where I ride, that's what VT and western MA are for. 8)


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## x10003q (Nov 19, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> While I don't know about "overpaid on the tit lazy state workers", and I am not a citizen of NY, I am for cuts as hard as they may be.  These people who may or may not lose their jobs are either stupid or naive, somebody in the state ranks are getting canned to meet budget requirements.  This country is in the shitter right now and cuts must be made on all levels of government.  And by them rightfully or wrongly shouting from the hills creating this "dramatic scenerio" they must realize that somebody within the state ranks will get their job axed.  So while people from the outside might feel for these workers plight, they must also realize that if it's not the people at Beleayre, it will be somebody else.  Of course the way political agenda's and ideology work, I guess they could just keep passing the buck down to the taxpayer and raise taxes!  People tend to forget who pays the way for state workers.  All this being said, is Belleayre a stable government run operation or does it run in the red?  I am guessing that if it was making money/breaking even/not losing much this would not be an issue.  Perhaps this is an entity that NY should let go of and see if they can sell it to private investors.



This is some nasty commentary. I guess the best way to balance a $136 billion budget with a $1 billion deficit is on the backs of some seasonal hourly workers who might make $10 bucks an hour. They are really going after the big fish. By the way who pays for their unemployment? 

New York State has 583 Authorities. All the board members for these Authorities are appointed by the Gov or local elected officials. They have (illegally) borrowed $41 billion without proper voter approval as required by the NY constitution. Here is a place to start fixing the big money drain in NYS. However, I guess it is easier to fire nameless hourly workers instead of all your crony board members who illegally borrowed all that money for your pet projects.

If you want to read about it here is the link:
http://www.cbcny.org/PubAuthorities.pdf


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## threecy (Nov 20, 2010)

x10003q said:


> This is some nasty commentary. I guess the best way to balance a $136 billion budget with a $1 billion deficit is on the backs of some seasonal hourly workers who might make $10 bucks an hour.



Firstly, nothing has been finalized.

Secondly, the 48 employees notified were allegedly (according to news outlets such as CBS 6) full time, year round (which is amazing for an area that size).


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

WTF?  All this drama every year..

Can't they just run the place and make money to pay for staff like everyone else? 

Sure it's a great place for to ski..  But it's state run and the state aint got no dough right now.  I bet those 180,000 Bellayre skiers would pay extra for a ticket and the higher paid staff would take a cut to save the joint.
I'd consider helping somehow.. If they were trying to raise $..  It does generate revenue for that area.

Anyway - most of them dislike Hunter - so I expect them to end up in Windham or Plattekill.


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> Firstly, nothing has been finalized.
> 
> Secondly, the 48 employees notified were allegedly (according to news outlets such as CBS 6) full time, year round (which is amazing for an area that size).



It's no secret that people like to work at Belleayre because it's a Govt. job... A friend of mine had a management job there for a while. They like all the benefits and stuff..  who can blame 'em...

But i wonder what 48 people do all year too...


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## oakapple (Nov 20, 2010)

Gnarcissaro said:


> OK, my apologies, I shouldn't lay down a blanket, "who cares." It's always unfortunate to see an area close, people love "their" areas. It's great to have cheap local hills for families and, well, THE LOCALS.


If Bellayre has 180,000 annual skier-visits, it's more than just the Locals skiing it, unless you define "local" awfully broadly.



> And regarding those 180 whatever-thousand skier visits. They won't make it up to where I ride, that's what VT and western MA are for. 8)


Ah...OK, so if a VT or MA ski area makes it onto NELSAP, "who cares?" is the appropriate response for everyone not from there?


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

ZYDECORICH said:


> the place is excellent for families on a budget. the beginners area is the best in the area and the step up for learning is perfect. 20 bucks on wed. for a lift ticket.. no crowd... are you kidding me?



This and the slew of other discounts and free tickets may be one of the reasons it struggles in the face of todays economy..


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## drjeff (Nov 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> Firstly, nothing has been finalized.
> 
> Secondly, the 48 employees notified were allegedly (according to news outlets such as CBS 6) full time, year round (which is amazing for an area that size).



Exactly about the number of year round employees - in a publically run, publically funded operation, one really has to ask the objective question of how many year round employees do resorts of similar size employee? Just remember if its 48 layoffs there still going to be multiple other year rounders not laid off, so in reality how many year rounders do they have? 60? 70? 80????

Sometimes business descisions aren't pretty, but if it makes the difference between staying open and closing, then tough choices need to be made


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## o3jeff (Nov 20, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Exactly about the number of year round employees - in a publically run, publically funded operation, one really has to ask the objective question of how many year round employees do resorts of similar size employee? Just remember if its 48 layoffs there still going to be multiple other year rounders not laid off, so in reality how many year rounders do they have? 60? 70? 80????
> 
> Sometimes business descisions aren't pretty, but if it makes the difference between staying open and closing, then tough choices need to be made



Good point, 48 full time year, round employees get laid off and they still have enough full timers to run the place, sounds like the state finally caught up with them under wastefull spending.  Unfortunately I find it hard to feel sorry for them.


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## Warp Daddy (Nov 20, 2010)

I'm in favor of a concessionaire approach to the resolution of this issue . It seems to provide assurance that it would operate as a business not strictly a service of the public sector . I'm all for regional hills and place that provide family and local access , However in these times the state can no longer afford to "carry" a deficit in ANY agency it operates . 

So NOW is the time to GET CREATIVE  and try something different . Other states have employed this model


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 20, 2010)

x10003q said:


> This is some nasty commentary. I guess the best way to balance a $136 billion budget with a $1 billion deficit is on the backs of some seasonal hourly workers who might make $10 bucks an hour. They are really going after the big fish. By the way who pays for their unemployment?
> 
> New York State has 583 Authorities. All the board members for these Authorities are appointed by the Gov or local elected officials. They have (illegally) borrowed $41 billion without proper voter approval as required by the NY constitution. Here is a place to start fixing the big money drain in NYS. However, I guess it is easier to fire nameless hourly workers instead of all your crony board members who illegally borrowed all that money for your pet projects.
> 
> ...



What was so nasty?  Was anything I said not true?  

I agree there are probably plenty of other areas to cut spending/meet budget needs, but this is the government were talking about.  They look out for there friends at the top, so the little guy always gets it.  It's the way it's been and probably will be.

Who pays for unemployment for the seasonal hourly workers?  Well probably the same people who pay for it the 7-8 months of the year Belleayre isn't open?  So us?  Am I right?


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## skidbump (Nov 20, 2010)

Problem is it supports the region.It pretty much breaks even.But its whole purpose is to support economy on the rt 28 corridor.
They have 55 full time yr round employees.They include mt and summer lake.And yes could afford to lose a few but not 48 of 55.That doesnt include fulltime seasonal,ski patrol,ski instructors or the part timers .
Throw into it the 15 or so restuarants, the motels and BnB's and now your looking at a large number of unemployed for a small region.

State isnt going to balance budget on cutting work force.State has to cut spending/waste/fraud.Layoffs will end up costing same amount in long run with welfare/unemployment just a different budget.

Haters will hate and im not here to start a state funding argument. I just wanted to put it out there.


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## oakapple (Nov 20, 2010)

The stories do not suggest that the ski area is in _any danger whatsoever_ of closing. Belleayre has an active year-round program, and it is likely the non-ski activities that would be cut back. I'm sure the ski employees are seasonal, and not affected by this layoff.

There have been plans for many years to build a new housing development, conference center, golf course, and hotel, on privately-owned land adjacent to Belleayre. The AP had a story about it just yesterday (link here), suggesting that the developer still believes it will go forward.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 20, 2010)

The land in the Catskills is protected from most development to supply clean water to NYC.  So the state created Belleayre to help the local economy because it is hard to grow it yourself if development is so restricted.  It's important to the people of the area and many others who like outdoor recreation.


BTW has anybody heard when they plan to open now?  They haven't updated their website in a while.


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## oakapple (Nov 20, 2010)

Management at Hunter Mountain and Windham (the two closest ski areas, both privately-owned) very much resent Belleayre. They feel that they shouldn’t have to compete with a government-run ski area.

I certainly wouldn’t support a new government-run ski resort if it were proposed today, but Belleayre was there before Hunter and Windham became what they are now. Belleayre’s terrain is distinct: it is much better for a beginner, for example, than Hunter or Windham, especially the former. I know Windham less well, but Hunter is notoriously packed on weekends during peak ski season. It is certainly in no position to take up the business that goes to Belleayre today.


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## andrec10 (Nov 20, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Management at Hunter Mountain and Windham (the two closest ski areas, both privately-owned) very much resent Belleayre. They feel that they shouldn’t have to compete with a government-run ski area.
> 
> I certainly wouldn’t support a new government-run ski resort if it were proposed today, but Belleayre was there before Hunter and Windham became what they are now. Belleayre’s terrain is distinct: it is much better for a beginner, for example, than Hunter or Windham, especially the former. I know Windham less well, but Hunter is notoriously packed on weekends during peak ski season. It is certainly in no position to take up the business that goes to Belleayre today.



Have you been to Windham in the last few years. It makes Hunter seem quiet in comparison on a weekend. Hunter has Hunter one for beginers, even though belleayre does have a better beginer area. Its in more of a position than Windham!


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## oakapple (Nov 20, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> Have you been to Windham in the last few years. It makes Hunter seem quiet in comparison on a weekend. Hunter has Hunter one for beginers, even though belleayre does have a better beginer area. Its in more of a position than Windham!



I was at both last year, but I am more familiar with Hunter historically. It is very much known as a party mountain.

In terms of terrain, I probably should have phrased it differently: Bellayre is superior to Hunter for both beginner AND intermediate terrain. (I am an intermediate skier who sometimes skis a black diamond VERY slowly.) Hunter One seems awfully dull to me, and when I was there several of the lifts didn’t operate.


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## drjeff (Nov 20, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Problem is it supports the region.It pretty much breaks even.But its whole purpose is to support economy on the rt 28 corridor.
> They have 55 full time yr round employees.They include mt and summer lake.And yes could afford to lose a few but not 48 of 55.That doesnt include fulltime seasonal,ski patrol,ski instructors or the part timers .
> Throw into it the 15 or so restuarants, the motels and BnB's and now your looking at a large number of unemployed for a small region.
> 
> ...



Here's the issue that will likely be facing the NYS legislature with respect to their deficit budget and Belleayre (and a whole host of other programs for that matter).  I'm fairly involved in the world of dental politics in CT, and when I go and speak with legislators about funding of medicaid services for dental treatment for kids in CT, I can paraphrase their answers in the following way: I hear what your saying and understand the importance of the issue, however in this time of great budget crisis, those same dollars YOUR looking for are also being sought by X,Y,Z (insert things like school funding, roads, medicare, general government operations, welfare, etc, etc, etc).  So now for a legislator, they're looking not necessarily line by line at the state budget but more likely in big, gross dollars figures per department,  and in situations like that it's often the smaller programs that take the biggest hits first.  With respect to NYS and its ski areas and parks in general, ski area wise, well I'm guessing that Whiteface and Gore would take priority over Belleayre, and in the big scheme of things parks wise, I'm guessing that a facility such as Jones Beach would get more priority over Belleayre.  Even if the NYS legislature chooses to increase their revenues via increased taxes,  the competition for those dollars still won't likely change.  Tough situation for sure,  but right or wrong (and that's totally open for debate) the programs that feed and educate the "poor" kids in say Harlem, Albany, Utica, Buffalo, etc are looking for the same dollars that go towards the operation of a "recreation facility" from a legislative standpoint right now.


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Management at Hunter Mountain and Windham (the two closest ski areas, both privately-owned) very much resent Belleayre. They feel that they shouldn’t have to compete with a government-run ski area.



Yup... And Bristol and Plattekill as well not just Hunter and Windham.



> certainly wouldn’t support a new government-run ski resort if it were proposed today, but Belleayre was there before Hunter and Windham became what they are now. Belleayre’s terrain is distinct: it is much better for a beginner, for example, than Hunter or Windham, especially the former. I know Windham less well, but Hunter is notoriously packed on weekends during peak ski season. It is certainly in no position to take up the business that goes to Belleayre today.




I gotta jump in on this Hunter sucking for beginners thing...
Hunter has a GREAT beginner area totally separate from the advanced area..  It has an award winning learning center built specifically to handle the beginner experience..  I've run my family through there before and it's great.  It's not a fair thing to say that it sucks.

I've seen pictures and heard the complaints here of Belleayre just as crowded as Hunter.. I'm not going to get into the terrain and layout of Belleayre because many people like it - i do not..


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## andrec10 (Nov 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> Yup... And Bristol and Plattekill as well not just Hunter and Windham.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



+1


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I was at both last year, but I am more familiar with Hunter historically. It is very much known as a party mountain.
> 
> In terms of terrain, I probably should have phrased it differently: Bellayre is superior to Hunter for both beginner AND intermediate terrain. (I am an intermediate skier who sometimes skis a black diamond VERY slowly.) Hunter One seems awfully dull to me, and when I was there several of the lifts didn’t operate.



I figured you were intermediate..  Totally puts this into perspective... Hunter is an advanced mountain with a great beginner area.  

Please try to not judge something on one days experience and past stories from the 70's and 80's..  Hunter has slowly become a family area..  Most of he clubs have closed...  Restaurants are opening...

You talk of hurting economy in the 28 corridor...  Please don't F with our's in the 23A corridor..  thank you


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Problem is it supports the region.It pretty much breaks even.But its whole purpose is to support economy on the rt 28 corridor.
> They have 55 full time yr round employees.They include mt and summer lake.And yes could afford to lose a few but not 48 of 55.That doesnt include fulltime seasonal,ski patrol,ski instructors or the part timers .
> Throw into it the 15 or so restuarants, the motels and BnB's and now your looking at a large number of unemployed for a small region.
> 
> ...



I think those fulltimers are salaried state employees..   I'd check on that - I think along with the salary comes pension and full benefits.   Pretty expensive stuff that Belleayre doesn't pay for....


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## andrec10 (Nov 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> I figured you were intermediate..  Totally puts this into perspective... Hunter is an advanced mountain with a great beginner area.
> 
> Please try to not judge something on one days experience and past stories from the 70's and 80's..  Hunter has slowly become a family area..  Most of he clubs have closed...  Restaurants are opening...
> 
> You talk of hurting economy in the 28 corridor...  Please don't F with our's in the 23A corridor..  thank you



Another +1


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## skidbump (Nov 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> I think those fulltimers are salaried state employees..   I'd check on that - I think along with the salary comes pension and full benefits.   Pretty expensive stuff that Belleayre doesn't pay for....



Yes 55 full time state DEC employees.Yes pension and benefits.
200+ fulltime and partime ski instructors recieve no pension or benefits
maybe 50+ ski patrol including volunteers
maybe 100 seasonal including food services,ski shop and rentals.
Thats quite a few people just on mt without jobs this winter
Yes some do it just for pass but most are there for the pay check.


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Yes 55 full time state DEC employees.Yes pension and benefits.
> 200+ fulltime and partime ski instructors recieve no pension or benefits
> maybe 50+ ski patrol including volunteers
> maybe 100 seasonal including food services,ski shop and rentals.
> ...




I get it..  I really do..   But all we know is "substantial cuts to the workforce" from Tony and thats it...
Let's hope they can juggle some stuff around save some people..  Maybe some can get early retirement or severance.   That would be cool..   And again - Hunter and Windham are hiring so - there's still hope the ones that make a living can continue..


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## oakapple (Nov 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> Yup... And Bristol and Plattekill as well not just Hunter and Windham.


According to Google Maps, Belleayre is 2 1/2 hours' drive from NYC, vs. 5 1/2 for Bristol, so I don’t really think of them as local competitors. Once you get into a five-hour drive, you’re talking Vermont. Plattekill is just 30 minutes from Belleayre, Hunter, et al, but it is closed four days a week (other than holidays and snow days).



> I gotta jump in on this Hunter sucking for beginners thing...
> Hunter has a GREAT beginner area totally separate from the advanced area..  It has an award winning learning center built specifically to handle the beginner experience..  I've run my family through there before and it's great.  It's not a fair thing to say that it sucks.


My original post did not contain the word “sucks” or any synonym thereof. Belleayre has better green and blue territory than Hunter does. That doesn’t mean Hunter sucks in any respect whatsoever.

It should also be noted — although I made this error myself in my earlier post — is that green and beginner are not precisely the same thing.



> I've seen pictures and heard the complaints here of Belleayre just as crowded as Hunter.


I am not the expert on this, but I would be very surprised if Belleayre were _as a rule_ as crowded as Hunter on a given date. One problem with Belleayre is that its lodges have less capacity than the trails and lifts do.


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## dmc (Nov 20, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I am not the expert on this, but I would be very surprised if Belleayre were _as a rule_ as crowded as Hunter on a given date. One problem with Belleayre is that its lodges have less capacity than the trails and lifts do.



Well... If you were an advanced skier you could ski the West side all day and pretty much si on and off the Z and if gets crowded ski on and off the Y with no lines...   But I guess you wouldn't know abut that.. And thats ok..  

Problem is - you see the world through intermediate glasses..  And there's only two ways for intermediates to go top to bottom at Hunter..   Belt and Hellgate...  And if you pack a ton of intermediates onto one trail it's not a pretty thing..  Anyone who ski's hunter regularly avoids these trails on weekend days.   Belleayre has more of what you desire..  Straight ridge intermediate runs.


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## 180 (Nov 20, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> +1



But the problem is that large swaths of Hunter One are usually closed on weekdays, including E lift which would qualify as intermediate terrain.


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## Rambo (Nov 20, 2010)

I remember years ago reading about the owner of West Mountain ski area located in the Adirondacks real close to I87 the Northway and Glens Falls NY going to court at least 2 different times trying to get Gore Mountain shut down because he felt he should not have to compete with a State funded and run ski area and he obviously was not successful.


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## snafu (Nov 20, 2010)

I would gather that the majority of NYers(how many millons) would not want their taxes raised to support a 180,000 skier/year mountain that I would bet is bleeding money if you added everything in. I mean $20 weekday tickets and being way family affordable, along with 48 or whatever full time workers (mind you with state benefits and pensions - something us private and small business owners can only dream about) - I'd be shocked if it broke even. Sell it and see how it does as a private hill. Another factor here is I read on Sugarbush's website(I believe) that skier numbers are down from 60 millon to 40 millon over the past ten years or so(its all Powdr's and ASC's fault so this also doesn't bode well for Bellayre - or ALOT of other mountains out there.

With all things considered this is going to pale in comparison with the real cuts that need to be made on a local, state and federal level in the next decade, ain't no way the fed's gonna print our way out of this.


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## HowieT2 (Nov 20, 2010)

I've never been to belleayre so I can't comment on it's merits as a ski area.  But as a ny state resident I do have some knowledge of the budget situation.  Obviously the employees at the mtn are small potatoes relative to the size of the budget.  But state employment overall is a big expense.  Therefore, the state is cutting workers by having them take early retirement essentially shifting the cost from the budget to the pension system.  Iirc, There is a projected deficit of 9 billion dollars.  Of that, 5 billion is the result of the expiration of taxes on the wealthy.  I would venture to say that not many of those benefitting from the aforementioned tax cut are residents of the catskills nor is it likely that a significant portion of that 5 billion will trickle down to the catskills.  However, in the recent election upstate voters chose candidates supporting the priority of cutting taxes and spending, so this is what they want.  
The big items in the state budget are education and medicaid.  Medicare is a federal program.


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## threecy (Nov 20, 2010)

I can't help but ask, but did Belleayre really need to purchase two brand new summit chairs in 7 years?

The Super Chief fixed grip quad was installed brand new in 1999.  The main components of it were sold (to Catamount) and a new Super Chief high speed quad installed in its place in 2006.  That can't look pretty on the books.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2010)

not entirely unheard of

Okemo put their Summit Triple in in 1983, replaced in with a Detach in 1992.  Put the Solitude Fixed Grip Quad in 1987, replaced with a Detach in 1994.  The original Solitude Quad was moved to the Southface, only to be replaced with a HSQ three years later.


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## Greg (Nov 20, 2010)

Gnarcissaro said:


> So in that regard, aside from you Joizey, New yawwwk, and mid-atlantic skiers, "who cares." :lol:
> 
> And regarding those 180 whatever-thousand skier visits. They won't make it up to where I ride, that's what VT and western MA are for. 8)



I live in CT and can easily go to all these epic resorts in SoVT and Western Mass you talk about. But one day last spring I opted for Belleayre with the boys cuz it was (1) still open and (2) had great bumps.



That was my first visit and was actually quite impressed with the place. Mount Snow was the next closest option that day and it was mowed flat as a pancake so Belleayre was the better choice. So interest in Belleayre goes beyond your stereotypes.


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## drjeff (Nov 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> I can't help but ask, but did Belleayre really need to purchase two brand new summit chairs in 7 years?
> 
> The Super Chief fixed grip quad was installed brand new in 1999.  The main components of it were sold (to Catamount) and a new Super Chief high speed quad installed in its place in 2006.  That can't look pretty on the books.



Who knows with it being a state run area and what the NYS budget allocation for Belleayre was in those years.  They may have actually had the cash budgeted to do what for a privately run ski area (especially with relatively flat yearly visit numbers) would be a big event on the balance sheet.  I'm sure that info is available someplace online,  I just have no desire to spend a bunch of time google searching it


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## Newpylong (Nov 20, 2010)

I would have to agree with you there. It's up there with the most boring places I've skied, and I like the cruisers as much as the next. Just my opinion of course.

55 full time employees seems to be way on the high side for a mountain of that size. Layoffs are unfortunate though..




dmc said:


> Yup... And Bristol and Plattekill as well not just Hunter and Windham.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## threecy (Nov 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> not entirely unheard of
> 
> Okemo put their Summit Triple in in 1983, replaced in with a Detach in 1992.  Put the Solitude Fixed Grip Quad in 1987, replaced with a Detach in 1994.  The original Solitude Quad was moved to the Southface, only to be replaced with a HSQ three years later.



None of those lifts left the Mueller family of ski areas, though.  Plus, those lifts were purchased with private dollars.  Catamount certainly didn't pay the equivalent of a new lift when they bought the bulk of the Super Chief - the taxpayers paid the difference.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 20, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> I would have to agree with you there. It's up there with the most boring places I've skied, and I like the cruisers as much as the next. Just my opinion of course.
> 
> 55 full time employees seems to be way on the high side for a mountain of that size. Layoffs are unfortunate though..



55 full time year round benefitted employees seems way high for pretty much any Eastern Ski Resort.  I know we didn't have that many at Snowshoe when I worked there in 02.  That despite doing 500K skier visits and having revenue north of 35mil.


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## 2knees (Nov 20, 2010)

those bastards at powdr corp must have had a part in this.


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## zyk (Nov 20, 2010)

So has Belleayre been making or losing money in recent years?  I don't rightly understand the funding structure with regard to the DEC and state.


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## andrec10 (Nov 20, 2010)

zyk said:


> So has Belleayre been making or losing money in recent years?  I don't rightly understand the funding structure with regard to the DEC and state.



The state does not understand the funding structure of the state, so why should we. There is no way Belleayre even breaks even they they are operated...


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## ZYDECORICH (Nov 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> This and the slew of other discounts and free tickets may be one of the reasons it struggles in the face of todays economy..



 DMC  happy winter!! thats ok . it can struggle.. breakeven.. lose a little... that may happen with publicly funded places. its for for public enjoyment.. hence your tax dollars. i just think it sucks because there aren't alot of them left for people on a budget. I understand the budget crisis in ny...hell nj isn't much better, but the Albany goons that got elected screwed this up. now the people who work and ski there may have to pay. just seems unfair. by the by i stay up at hunter every year on the midweek plan at one of the condos. lots of fun, but they never seem to open hunter one during the week. that sucks for the little one. also, they have to do something about that wait forever to get into mountain jam and then hike up the mountain with a wagon.. then go out to get more stuff and do it again. just nuts. hotel next time.


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## threecy (Nov 21, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> There is no way Belleayre even breaks even they they are operated...



It's hard to even compare a government owned/run ski area to a private ski area.

For instance, I doubt Belleayre pays any property taxes.  Nor do I think Belleayre has to show the cost of any of their capital improvements on their balance sheet or income statement.  Those things alone can eat up the bottom line of a privately owned ski area (take a look at the property tax issues and debt at Tenney and Ascutney, for instance).


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## dmc (Nov 21, 2010)

ZYDECORICH said:


> DMC  happy winter!! thats ok . it can struggle.. breakeven.. lose a little... that may happen with publicly funded places. its for for public enjoyment.. hence your tax dollars. i just think it sucks because there aren't alot of them left for people on a budget. I understand the budget crisis in ny...hell nj isn't much better, but the Albany goons that got elected screwed this up. now the people who work and ski there may have to pay. just seems unfair. by the by i stay up at hunter every year on the midweek plan at one of the condos. lots of fun, but they never seem to open hunter one during the week. that sucks for the little one. also, they have to do something about that wait forever to get into mountain jam and then hike up the mountain with a wagon.. then go out to get more stuff and do it again. just nuts. hotel next time.



How did Albany screw this up?  Was Gov Patterson loading chairs and pouring beers incorrectly?


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## dmc (Nov 21, 2010)

threecy said:


> It's hard to even compare a government owned/run ski area to a private ski area.
> 
> For instance, I doubt Belleayre pays any property taxes.  Nor do I think Belleayre has to show the cost of any of their capital improvements on their balance sheet or income statement.  Those things alone can eat up the bottom line of a privately owned ski area (take a look at the property tax issues and debt at Tenney and Ascutney, for instance).



They don't have to pay sales tax,  Property tax, Insurance, salaries - even the new chairs were paid for by the state...


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## oakapple (Nov 21, 2010)

dmc said:


> How did Albany screw this up?  Was Gov Patterson loading chairs and pouring beers incorrectly?



To the extent Albany is screwed up, Paterson’s relatively brief tenure as as Governor is not the reason. New York has probably the most dysfunctional legislature in the country. The historically Democratic-controlled State Assembly and the historically Republican-controlled State Senate are chronically unable to work together.

Neither Paterson nor his predecessor, Eliot Spitzer, was very effective. But before them, there were 12 years of George Pataki, whose philosophy could be summarized as: “Never solve today what you can shunt off to the next governor.” The problems Spitzer and Paterson inherited were largely of Pataki’s making.


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## dmc (Nov 21, 2010)

oakapple said:


> To the extent Albany is screwed up, Paterson’s relatively brief tenure as as Governor is not the reason. New York has probably the most dysfunctional legislature in the country. The historically Democratic-controlled State Assembly and the historically Republican-controlled State Senate are chronically unable to work together.
> 
> Neither Paterson nor his predecessor, Eliot Spitzer, was very effective. But before them, there were 12 years of George Pataki, whose philosophy could be summarized as: “Never solve today what you can shunt off to the next governor.” The problems Spitzer and Paterson inherited were largely of Pataki’s making.



Please tell me how this is the states fault?

I don't care about politics..


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## oakapple (Nov 21, 2010)

threecy said:


> It's hard to even compare a government owned/run ski area to a private ski area.
> 
> For instance, I doubt Belleayre pays any property taxes.  Nor do I think Belleayre has to show the cost of any of their capital improvements on their balance sheet or income statement.  Those things alone can eat up the bottom line of a privately owned ski area (take a look at the property tax issues and debt at Tenney and Ascutney, for instance).



Exactly. Government-run entities don’t keep the same kind of balance sheet as real businesses, and they don’t pay the rents or taxes that would be changed in a real arm’s-length relationship between the government and a private operator.


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## drjeff (Nov 21, 2010)

oakapple said:


> Exactly. Government-run entities don’t keep the same kind of balance sheet as real businesses, and they don’t pay the rents or taxes that would be changed in a real arm’s-length relationship between the government and a private operator.



You forgot one key thing too.  When a government run entity has a "problem" the answer usually isn't: step 1) figure out what the problem is step 2) figure out the options to fix the problem and the costs associated with each fix step 3) implement the best fix for the problem (the private sector way most times)  The gov't run entity tends to be: step 1) be completely ambivoulous to the problem until its a REALLY big problem step 2) just blindly throw more $$ at the problem hoping that it will solve itself somehow  and step 3) if step 2 doesn't work, form about 10 different task forces to study the problem over the course of about 5 years and a bunch more $$ while keep throwing more taxayer $$ blindly at the problem hoping it will fix itself  :lol:


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## zyk (Nov 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> You forgot one key thing too.  When a government run entity has a "problem" the answer usually isn't: step 1) figure out what the problem is step 2) figure out the options to fix the problem and the costs associated with each fix step 3) implement the best fix for the problem (the private sector way most times)  The gov't run entity tends to be: step 1) be completely ambivoulous to the problem until its a REALLY big problem step 2) just blindly throw more $$ at the problem hoping that it will solve itself somehow  and step 3) if step 2 doesn't work, form about 10 different task forces to study the problem over the course of about 5 years and a bunch more $$ while keep throwing more taxayer $$ blindly at the problem hoping it will fix itself  :lol:



Isn't that just government doctrine? :-D

Hypothetically,  could Belleayre survive and possibly thrive under private ownership?  Sadly then they'd probably end the midweek discounts:sad:.


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## catskills (Nov 21, 2010)

dmc said:


> Anyway - most of them (180,000 Belleayre Skiers) dislike Hunter - so I expect them to end up in Windham or Plattekill.



DMC your got to be kidding me right.  News flash most Belleayre skiers do NOT dislike Hunter.  Many Belleayre skiers also enjoy skiing Hunter, especially mid-week.  

If you think Belleayre skiers have this hatred for other ski areas you would be dead wrong. Lets face it.  Most skiers and riders truly love this sport and will ski where ever they can as long as its not too crowded.  Emphasis on not too crowded.  Belleayre can get crowded on peak weekends with great snow.  Skiers and riders move to where there is the least resistance. Its kind of like OHM's law.  Nothing to do with dislike.  

IMHO I don't think  Belleayre is closing.   But just for fun, lets say Belleayre did close its doors.  I think 180,000 additional skier and rider visits would have a  significant negative impact on the quality and enjoyment at all ski areas in the Catskills and else where.  DMC I am sure you ski F and Z lift most weekends at Hunter.  Y-Lift when its opened.  If Belleayre closed, I would estimate an additional 500 more skiers on  Hunter's F and Z lifts on weekends. They will not spend a lot of time in the lodge.  This is not the real problem  The real problem is the majority of Belleayre  intermediate skiers that are not skilled enough to ski Hellgate.  Where the hell are they going to ski.  There just is not enough lower intermediate terrain in the Catskills to handle the number of Belleayre's  lower intermediate skiers, if Belleayre closed its doors. 

As for Belleayre being sold.  This just isn't going to happen.  The NY state politicians have a lot more important things then Belleayre right now.  

The worst case scenario is one more ski area  closes its doors and joins  the NELSAP list.  That would be bad for all of us that love this sport.


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## dmc (Nov 21, 2010)

Hunter has taken a lot on negativity from Belleayre skiers on this board...  And I've also talked to people AT Belleayre that share a negative view of Hunter when I tell them I live at Hunter.  You can even see it in ski club advert where the trips are Belleayre and Windham with not mention of Hunter.   
And thats OK... Hunter isn't for everyone..  

I'm sure there's a group of Belleayre skiers that enjoy Hunter..  I'm good with that..  i actually have met some midweek..


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## kartski (Nov 21, 2010)

zyk said:


> Isn't that just government doctrine? :-D
> 
> Hypothetically,  could Belleayre survive and possibly thrive under private ownership?  Sadly then they'd probably end the midweek discounts:sad:.




The State can close it down, selling would be hard. It's on land owned by the people of the State and that State has a Constitution. To transfer any State Land, It's got to pass the Assembly and Senate, then wait a complete election cycle, pass the Assembly and Senate again and then it becomes a Ballot measure. Hunter tried it to swap land to get the peak of Hunter, it's an expensive form of banging your head on a rock.

As far as Belleayre making money, last season Patterson set opening and closing dates and how many lift could operate on which days. In the end they were allowed to blow the closing date, end of march and stay open. It's probably not a big drain on the over all budget. 

If the state could sell something to make money, I believe they own Governor's Is. now. Great location, housing, school, bowling alley, they did rip out the golf course though.


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## k123 (Nov 21, 2010)

- At Thursday's hearing, some of the 45 full time employees at Belleayre Ski Mountain who are being offered seasonal jobs instead

- Iwanowicz said the employees would be re-hired as part-time seasonal workers, giving the ski center the same staffing level as last year during the winter season.


Hopefully this won't effect winter operations...


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## RootDKJ (Nov 21, 2010)

C'mon now.  If the government really wanted to cut back on non-required spending, there's way bigger fish to fry.


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## catskills (Nov 21, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> C'mon now.  If the government really wanted to cut back on non-required spending, there's way bigger fish to fry.


+1


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## dmc (Nov 21, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> C'mon now.  If the government really wanted to cut back on non-required spending, there's way bigger fish to fry.



Like what?


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## tjf67 (Nov 21, 2010)

The fact of the matter is a couple of people are going to lose there job.  The hyped up bantoring is what is annoying.  Ther will not close ant time in the near future.


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## skidbump (Nov 21, 2010)

Honestly ,if the state employee unions would have took the furlough option and/or re negotiated union contract this would not have happened As long as union and non union took appropriate cuts i dont see the issue.As a ex union member and shop steward, i think it would be better to negotiate than to just say go ahead lay them off.Same will go for the schedules cuts to dmv and dot. This is just the tip of the iceberg and come 1/1/11 Coumo has no choice but to cut and cut deep.Then it up to us to decide is it better to lose the state amenities or to keep with higher taxes.

And yes there is always fat to be trimmed but to the bone is not practical.

Being told your laid off but can come back at a 20% pay cut and seasonal is impractical for a full time yr round employee. How many are looking to leave just so they can still make a living How many can look at 20% pay cut and do better on unemployment?. I can go to a website and see what every state employee is making and no one on that mountain is getting rich .


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## skidbump (Nov 21, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> The fact of the matter is a couple of people are going to lose there job.  The hyped up bantoring is what is annoying.  Ther will not close ant time in the near future.



48 out 55 are set to be laidoff .Offered 20% pay cut and brought back as seasonal and seasonal get no benefits.How many people do you know who have families and could take the paycut and benefit cut.I feel that alot wont leave for the pay but will leave for a job with benefits.


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## dmc (Nov 21, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Being told your laid off but can come back at a 20% pay cut and seasonal is impractical for a full time yr round employee. How many are looking to leave just so they can still make a living How many can look at 20% pay cut and do better on unemployment?. I can go to a website and see what every state employee is making and no one on that mountain is getting rich .



I'm not saying it's good...
but..
In these times - it's not uncommon for someone to take a pay cut in lieu of getting laid off.
I've been involved in 2 of these in the IT world..  I know many others that have as well.   

If they can remain state employees and keep service time,benefits and pension.  Thats a good thing...


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## millerm277 (Nov 21, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Being told your laid off but can come back at a 20% pay cut and seasonal is impractical for a full time yr round employee. How many are looking to leave just so they can still make a living How many can look at 20% pay cut and do better on unemployment?. I can go to a website and see what every state employee is making and no one on that mountain is getting rich .




It very much sucks for them. On the other hand, there is pretty much no way for a mountain of that size, to need 55 full time employees and all the benefit, retirement and other costs the comes with them. 

Much as it's terrible for the 48 people, it's idiotic to waste money by essentially paying far more than you need to for your staff, even more so when it's taxpayer money.


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## snafu (Nov 21, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Honestly ,if the state employee unions would have took the furlough option and/or re negotiated union contract this would not have happened



BINGO - we have a winner.... *Public* unions have had it very good for a long time, and unfortunately it seems alot of them do not realize how bad the situation is(with falling tax revenues, rampant unemployment etc). Public unions do not like to renegotiate contracts - even if it means cutting jobs. If this is the case that they are doing to themselves, then I do not have alot of sympathy for them. Mind you I have no problem with private unions - they are keen on what market forces can do and have to act accordingly or jobs go away(usually overseas).



> . I can go to a website and see what every state employee is making and no one on that mountain is getting rich .



Compared to who? I bet with all the benefits and pension and pay the are relatively well off compared to a similar job at a private mountain.


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## threecy (Nov 21, 2010)

snafu said:


> Compared to who? I bet with all the benefits and pension and pay the are relatively well off compared to a similar job at a private mountain.



...or for that matter many taxpayers.  Government is not sustainable if government employees have better pay and benefits than the people who pay their salaries (taxpayers).

A few cliches that those in the ski industry have heard of the years, just to drive home the nearly universal low wages:

- A paycheck may also be known as a weekly or biweekly insult
- A career in the industry may also be known as a 'vow of poverty'
- 'The only way to become a millionaire in the ski industry is to start as a multi-millionaire'


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## krisskis (Nov 21, 2010)

I have family that works at Bell and family that lives on the mountain...spoke to 1 yesterday and she said that the full time employees lost their full time status but they can be hired back as seasonal employees. Only 10 people got to keep their full time status. They will be open this year. Dont know what the opening and closing days are, but they will be open.

As for Bell skiers hating on Hunter...I am NOT 1 of them. I personally get bored at Bell after a day there and i have been skiing there for over 37 years. Love springtime there  Hunter is a more challenging mountain and is where i will be found the most. As for the crowds at Hunter, i have yet to see it really bad there. IMHO the lines at Bell at the Super Chief are horrendous on the weekends!! I prefer to stay over by the Tomahawk chair and stay away from the crowds. Same goes for Hunter...stay away from the crowds. If you cant handle the terrain, stay at Hunter One. I agree that there isnt much for the lower intermediate to ski on except Hellgate and Belt and even Hell can be a clusterf**k on the weekends...i have seen plenty of carnage on there with people who are over their heads.

DMC...see you at Hunter!!


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

Interesting comments...
http://blog.timesunion.com/stateworker/state-layoffs-his-snow-country/1057/


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

krisskis said:


> I have family that works at Bell and family that lives on the mountain...spoke to 1 yesterday and she said that the full time employees lost their full time status but they can be hired back as seasonal employees. Only 10 people got to keep their full time status. They will be open this year. Dont know what the opening and closing days are, but they will be open.
> 
> As for Bell skiers hating on Hunter...I am NOT 1 of them. I personally get bored at Bell after a day there and i have been skiing there for over 37 years. Love springtime there  Hunter is a more challenging mountain and is where i will be found the most. As for the crowds at Hunter, i have yet to see it really bad there. IMHO the lines at Bell at the Super Chief are horrendous on the weekends!! I prefer to stay over by the Tomahawk chair and stay away from the crowds. Same goes for Hunter...stay away from the crowds. If you cant handle the terrain, stay at Hunter One. I agree that there isnt much for the lower intermediate to ski on except Hellgate and Belt and even Hell can be a clusterf**k on the weekends...i have seen plenty of carnage on there with people who are over their heads.
> 
> DMC...see you at Hunter!!



I hear ya... See you there..


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## catskillman (Nov 22, 2010)

If those 180,000 skiers and riders decided to relocate to your favorite place to ski and the lift line doubled in wait time, you might give a crap and have a crap.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly why I care.  That and I pay NYS a lot of $$ in taxes


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## catskillman (Nov 22, 2010)

If Belleayre closed/downsized (just did not make snow on certain trails and closed X lifts to save $) it would help Platekill which would be nice.


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

catskillman said:


> If Belleayre closed/downsized (just did not make snow on certain trails and closed X lifts to save $) it would help Platekill which would be nice.



I think it would help Platt too since it's kinda near there and has some good mellow skiing..


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## catskillman (Nov 22, 2010)

Who pays for unemployment for the seasonal hourly workers?  Well probably the same people who pay for it the 7-8 months of the year Belleayre isn't open?  So us?  Am I right?[/QUOTE]

Seasonal workers are not eligible for unemployment - mabye state workers have some loophole.  That is one reason why areas are going to foreign workers.  Locals jepordize their long term state aid ....... by taking seasonal work.


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## drjeff (Nov 22, 2010)

catskillman said:


> If those 180,000 skiers and riders decided to relocate to your favorite place to ski and the lift line doubled in wait time, you might give a crap and have a crap.




Gotta remember that it's not actually 180,000 individual people were talking about here, unless the "average" Belleayre skier/rider just goes there 1 time per season.

In terms of individual folks, if their average customer skis/rides there 10 times a season, then it's 18,000 individuals, if it's 5 times a season, then it 36,000 individuals, etc.

So *if* Belleayre was close, over the course of an entire season, the surrounding ski areas would undoubtedly see an increase in skier/rider vists, but not likely a mega dramatic increase.


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

catskillman said:


> Seasonal workers are not eligible for unemployment - mabye state workers have some loophole.  That is one reason why areas are going to foreign workers.  Locals jepordize their long term state aid ....... by taking seasonal work.



At Hunter they are eligible for unemployment if they work a certain length of time.  I think like 6 months...


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

drjeff said:


> So *if* Belleayre was close, over the course of an entire season, the surrounding ski areas would undoubtedly see an increase in skier/rider vists, but not likely a mega dramatic increase.



Remember Belleayre is never crowded so I'm not worried...


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## catskillman (Nov 22, 2010)

180 said:


> But the problem is that large swaths of Hunter One are usually closed on weekdays, including E lift which would qualify as intermediate terrain.



YES - that is Hunter's way of saving $, budget management -  Belleayre would keep all the lifts open for 2 people skiing. --  Need to be cost effective............


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## Geoff (Nov 22, 2010)

krisskis said:


> I have family that works at Bell and family that lives on the mountain...spoke to 1 yesterday and she said that the full time employees lost their full time status but they can be hired back as seasonal employees. Only 10 people got to keep their full time status.



Sounds like a mini-version of what POWDR did at Killington.   This is all about screwing people out of their health insurance benefits.   Locals can't afford to go without health insurance so many go elsewhere rather than go without insurance.   At Killington, Preston Smith used to talk about his number of full-timers as a matter of personal pride and obligation.


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## catskillman (Nov 22, 2010)

Look - I am sure that everyone of the full time associates knows they had a great deal and were very lucky every day they worked there.  They had to know the mountain did not need 55 full time year round employees!  I am sure if you speak to them thye undersatnd the situation and probally expected the gravy train to end eventually.  Hopefully they planned ahead.

Keep in mind the food operation is leased.

Anyway - I will miss the "free" tickets I always get in the spring after Hunter closes.  Not to mention the free beer!


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## oakapple (Nov 22, 2010)

krisskis said:


> As for Bell skiers hating on Hunter...I am NOT 1 of them.


I don’t actually recall anyone using “hate” to describe Hunter. I suspect you are mistaking “hate” for merely, “doesn’t like it as much as you do.”



> Hunter is a more challenging mountain and is where i will be found the most. . . . If you cant handle the terrain, stay at Hunter One. I agree that there isnt much for the lower intermediate to ski on except Hellgate and Belt and even Hell can be a clusterf**k on the weekends...i have seen plenty of carnage on there with people who are over their heads.


Some advanced skiers, and I fear you may be one of them, have completely forgotten what it was like to be intermediate. There actually is a decent amount of intermediate terrain on the main hill at Hunter (Belt Parkway, White Cloud, 42nd Street, 7th Avenue, Gun Hill Road, Kennedy Drive, etc.).

I was rather annoyed, though, that even on a weekend in (IIRC) early March, E lift did not operate, taking a lot of Hunter One’s intermediate terrain off the map.



catskillman said:


> YES - that is Hunter's way of saving $, budget management -  Belleayre would keep all the lifts open for 2 people skiing. --  Need to be cost effective............


Belleayre’s configuration makes it awfully awfully impractical to take any lifts out of service, aside from either of the two fixed-grip doubles at the Discovery Lodge. The others serve unique terrain, and losing any of them would make a lot of the mountain inaccessible. Hunter’s lift configuration and mountain layout has a lot more redundancy. They can run a subset of lifts, and still provide a very good skier experience.


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

catskillman said:


> Look - I am sure that everyone of the full time associates knows they had a great deal and were very lucky every day they worked there.  They had to know the mountain did not need 55 full time year round employees!  I am sure if you speak to them thye undersatnd the situation and probally expected the gravy train to end eventually.  Hopefully they planned ahead.
> 
> Keep in mind the food operation is leased.
> 
> Anyway - I will miss the "free" tickets I always get in the spring after Hunter closes.  Not to mention the free beer!



Nobody likes it when the gravy train derails..

I think I've only paid for 1 ticket there and I've been a bunch of times..   

What about the 2 unions that are at Belleayre?  They seem to be quiet..


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## dmc (Nov 22, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I don’t actually recall anyone using “hate” to describe Hunter. I suspect you are mistaking “hate” for merely, “doesn’t like it as much as you do.”



Strongly dislike?  better? 

Whatever...  There's lot's of "strong dislike" for Hunter - it's culture and trails - from Belleayre skiers on this board..


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## threecy (Nov 22, 2010)

catskillman said:


> They had to know the mountain did not need 55 full time year round employees!
> ...
> Keep in mind the food operation is leased.



Ouch!


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## RootDKJ (Nov 22, 2010)

krisskis said:


> I have family that works at Bell and family that lives on the mountain...spoke to 1 yesterday and she said that the full time employees lost their full time status but they can be hired back as seasonal employees. Only 10 people got to keep their full time status. They will be open this year. Dont know what the opening and closing days are, but they will be open.



I'm glad to hear this.  I've been wanting to get to Belleayre for a few seasons now, but I haven't made the time to do so.  I have time time off to use yet this year and in the time period between when they and Blue open, I'm going to make some trips there.  I'd hate to have the place closed down and never skied there.


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## thinnmann (Nov 22, 2010)

DEC's layoff & ERI lists

snip----->>>>

_Responding to a Freedom of Information Law request, the state Department of Environmental Conservation has provided the Enterprise with a list of DEC positions that are slated to be eliminated by the end of the year.

The list (see below) includes 134 positions, including 45 from the state-run Bellleayre Mountain Ski Center in the Catskills. The DEC has about 3,150 employees, according to the state Division of Budget. _​
The rest is here
http://www.adirondackdailyenterpris...ist-of-DEC-positions-scheduled-to-be-cut.html


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## gmcunni (Nov 22, 2010)

thinnmann said:


> DEC's layoff & ERI lists
> 
> snip----->>>>
> 
> ...



of the jobs being cut - 
Ski Patroller 1, Belleayre
Ski Patroller 2, Belleayre

i thought all ski patrol was volunteer, are there SP managers on full time payroll?


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## thinnmann (Nov 22, 2010)

gmcunni said:


> of the jobs being cut -
> Ski Patroller 1, Belleayre
> Ski Patroller 2, Belleayre
> 
> i thought all ski patrol was volunteer, are there SP managers on full time payroll?



Guess so.  Looks like two patrollers and a lot of maintenance people.  I hope nothing breaks....  If a lift goes down, will it be down for days?  Hm...  hope not.


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## threecy (Nov 22, 2010)

These were all full time, year round jobs at Belleayre?!?



> Carpenter, Belleayre
> 
> Clerk 1, Belleayre
> 
> ...


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 22, 2010)

threecy said:


> These were all full time, year round jobs at Belleayre?!?



How does this stack up to other areas of the same relative size?  Some of those positions seem a bit over-staffed from an outsiders perspective.  Again I have no real knowledge, just curious.  The park workers (guessing this means park as in rails, jumps, etc) and general mechanic caught my eye.  If these numbers are on target for a normal ski area of similar size then I feel bad for the resort and really home nothing craps the bed during the season, could be a long winter.


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## millerm277 (Nov 22, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> How does this stack up to other areas of the same relative size?  Some of those positions seem a bit over-staffed from an outsiders perspective.  Again I have no real knowledge, just curious.  The park workers (guessing this means park as in rails, jumps, etc) and general mechanic caught my eye.  If these numbers are on target for a normal ski area of similar size then I feel bad for the resort and really home nothing craps the bed during the season, could be a long winter.



This being the observations of someone who has only very limited direct knowledge of resort operations...

That's a ridiculous number of mechanics for any time of the year, especially considering they have 5 lifts. You could have a mechanic sitting at each chairlift, 2 in the snowmaking plant, 2 in the groomer shop, all waiting for something to break and still have 3 extras.

And obviously, those guys don't fix the little stuff either, that's what the 12 members of the maintenance staff must be for.

I am also curious as to what exactly you need with 2 patrollers and 6 park crew members full time, in the summer.

I recognize my post is, ahem...full of sarcasm, but I can't see any possible way to need this much staff in these positions, even if they somehow were equally busy in the summer as the winter. And even if you did, the normal practice would probably be to hire different people, so you don't have to spend a bunch of money on benefits and retirement for low-skill work.

EDIT: A quick look at their summer offerings shows absolutely nothing in terms of anything that's hugely labor intensive or needing frequent repairs.
EDIT2: As a basic point, have you ever looked at a ski area in summer? (not counting summer ops) It's generally dead and there's nothing going on until near the end of the summer unless they're installing a lift or 100 fan guns.


----------



## threecy (Nov 22, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> How does this stack up to other areas of the same relative size?  Some of those positions seem a bit over-staffed from an outsiders perspective.  Again I have no real knowledge, just curious.  The park workers (guessing this means park as in rails, jumps, etc) and general mechanic caught my eye.  If these numbers are on target for a normal ski area of similar size then I feel bad for the resort and really home nothing craps the bed during the season, could be a long winter.



I don't have any personal experience with detachables (they take a lot more work than fixed grips), but they have dozens of full time, year round maintenance employees for an area with 5 chairlifts.  Unreal.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 22, 2010)

And we wonder why New York is in the shape its in! If Belleayre is this overstaffed, imagine the rest of the state! I hate to see anyone lose thier job, but this is crazy!


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 22, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> And we wonder why New York is in the shape its in! If Belleayre is this overstaffed, imagine the rest of the state! I hate to see anyone lose thier job, but this is crazy!


 
Agreed, really hate to see people lose their jobs.  But like many of the common folk who have had to reel in spending, budget, act shall I say like a responsible adult, it's time the government do the same.  And to your point about the rest of the state, I can't even fathom, well I can, but it's just too damn depressing.


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 22, 2010)

k123 said:


> - At Thursday's hearing, some of the 45 full time employees at Belleayre Ski Mountain who are being offered seasonal jobs instead
> 
> - Iwanowicz said the employees would be re-hired as part-time seasonal workers, giving the ski center the same staffing level as last year during the winter season.
> 
> ...


I am amazed that all but the biggest of resorts would even have 45 full time employees.  I am not familiar with Belleayre, but this has to be a no brainer. Did they have lifties and cashiers on payroll at full time status?


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 22, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I am amazed that all but the biggest of resorts would even have 45 full time employees.  I am not familiar with Belleayre, but this has to be a no brainer. Did they have lifties and cashiers on payroll at full time status?



What about ski patrol?  That is the one that got me?  I am guessing that although listed as fulltime for the duty of ski patrol that they actually had other duties during the year that obviously didn't include patroling....and I don't mean attending seminars and confrences.


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 22, 2010)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> What about ski patrol?  That is the one that got me?  I am guessing that although listed as fulltime for the duty of ski patrol that they actually had other duties during the year that obviously didn't include patroling....and I don't mean attending seminars and confrences.


Almost all patrol is volunteer. I am sure most major areas pay the head of patrol. That could be seasonal as well, though. Maybe one full time head of patrol seems fine. The above list does not show which full time positions are not being reallocated to seasonal, though.


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Almost all patrol is volunteer. I am sure most major areas pay the head of patrol. That could be seasonal as well, though. Maybe one full time head of patrol seems fine. The above list does not show which full time positions are not being reallocated to seasonal, though.



At Hunter our SP is fulltime seasonal.. And some volunteers...


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## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

Its also a state park with a small lake open in the summer .Yes it was alittle fat but it wasnt like they sat arround all summer doing nothing.It also is the older of the ski areas and it does require a lot of maintnace as most of there quads/snowmobiles/cars/trucks/groomers/shuttle vans and heavy equipment.Christ lodge is from the 50's and that alone is almst a full time job.

Believe one of the full time patrollers is also of security one may have been a nurse.

And yes i have seen 3 people doing a 2 man job,just like any other state work crew But who is going to do all the work to upkeep the place from april to november.

How many people do you know that world make lets say 25 an hour then take a 20% pay cut and lose 7 months of pay.Does anybody think that those people who had the key jobs are going to stay.if Lift mechanics leave where do you get replacement people.Where do you get groomers,carpenters,and electricians.

Also some of those people work 7 months as park personel and 5 as ski area employees.
Ya they could have made a cut but not every body.


----------



## riverc0il (Nov 23, 2010)

I wonder if any one that actually works at a ski area (preferably privately held) could comment on the percentage of full time employees to part time and/or seasonal? My guess is that the adjustments bring Belleayre's work force into line with what is actually standard at other areas. Just my guess though, would love to hear from someone currently or that has previously worked at a ski area.


----------



## catskills (Nov 23, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I wonder if any one that actually works at a ski area (preferably privately held) could comment on the percentage of full time employees to part time and/or seasonal? *My guess is that the adjustments bring Belleayre's work force into line with what is actually standard at other areas.* Just my guess though, would love to hear from someone currently or that has previously worked at a ski area.


NY state is cutting cutting 48 jobs out of 55.  Most of these positions earn around $15 an hour.  That leaves 7 full time employees.  Are you saying that you can run a  down hill ski area, ski school, ski patrol, cross country ski area, lift maintenance, snow making, grooming, security, summer  lake/boating/picnic area,  summer concert every weekend, summer sky ride, summer biking, wedding events, and new construction improvements with *7 employees?*   Wow that would be awesome if you could.

There is so much BS on this forum you could fill a very large garbage truck.


----------



## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

catskills said:


> NY state is cutting cutting 48 jobs out of 55.  Most of these positions earn a tad over $15 an hour.  That leaves 7 full time employees.  Are you saying that you can run a  down hill ski area, ski school, ski patrol, cross country ski area, lift maintenance, snow making, grooming, security, summer  lake/picnic area,  summer concert every weekend, summer sky ride, summer biking, wedding events, and new construction improvements with *7 employees?*   Wow that would be awesome if you could.
> 
> There is so much BS on this forum you could fill a very large garbage truck.



So what is it $10 an hour of $15 an hour...  Who's spouting BS?

*7 employees?*  + Sesonal Employees = doing the job.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Its also a state park with a small lake open in the summer .Yes it was alittle fat but it wasnt like they sat arround all summer doing nothing.It also is the older of the ski areas and it does require a lot of maintnace as most of there quads/snowmobiles/cars/trucks/groomers/shuttle vans and heavy equipment.Christ lodge is from the 50's and that alone is almst a full time job.
> 
> Believe one of the full time patrollers is also of security one may have been a nurse.
> 
> ...



The construction industry isn't exactly "on fire" right now, so I'm guessing there's plenty of folks out there.  Groomer wise, well the first few days might produce a little uneven product, but I'm guessing that if one if proficient at operating a bulldozer, that they could pick up grooming pretty quickly.  Just saying....


----------



## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

drjeff said:


> The construction industry isn't exactly "on fire" right now, so I'm guessing there's plenty of folks out there.  Groomer wise, well the first few days might produce a little uneven product, but I'm guessing that if one if proficient at operating a bulldozer, that they could pick up grooming pretty quickly.  Just saying....



A good dozer operator isnt a good groomer.Grooming is almost an art.


----------



## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> So what is it $10 an hour of $15 an hour...  Who's spouting BS?
> 
> *7 employees?*  + Sesonal Employees = doing the job.



Do you really think 7 people could do what needs to be done from april to november.
So now you would need summer seasonal for ski area work.So doesnt make sense to make it a yr round job instead of a winter and summer seasonal gig.Again what happens when key people decide to leave.
And it is there to support economy so i believe creating jobs for locals is part of it.


----------



## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Its also a state park with a small lake open in the summer .


...requiring more than 50 full time, year round employees, plus additional seasonal?



skidbump said:


> It also is the older of the ski areas and it does require a lot of maintnace as most of there quads/snowmobiles/cars/trucks/groomers/shuttle vans and heavy equipment.


Fourwheelers and snowmobiles can be serviced by local businesses, as can vans.  If they're on a lease program with snowcats, significant maintenance is unnecessary.




skidbump said:


> Christ lodge is from the 50's and that alone is almst a full time job.


I would venture a guess that most ski areas in the northeast have lodges originally built in the 1950s or 1960s.


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Do you really think 7 people could do what needs to be done from april to november.



No..  But 7 plus seasonal employees can...

thats what every other ski area does and it works fine..


----------



## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> No..  But 7 plus seasonal employees can...
> 
> thats what every other ski area does and it works fine..



Indeed...a lot of tasks do not require advanced skills - rather, someone skilled to oversee and unskilled labor to do.


----------



## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> No..  But 7 plus seasonal employees can...
> 
> thats what every other ski area does and it works fine..



 no what i am saying is at what point do you make it yr round .Having seaonal winter with seasonal summer = yr round full time work..No?


----------



## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> Indeed...a lot of tasks do not require advanced skills - rather, someone skilled to oversee and unskilled labor to do.



If I was a local non-union Fleischmans guy - I'd be chomping at the bit for one of those seasonal jobs..


----------



## oakapple (Nov 23, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I wonder if any one that actually works at a ski area (preferably privately held) could comment on the percentage of full time employees to part time and/or seasonal? My guess is that the adjustments bring Belleayre's work force into line with what is actually standard at other areas. Just my guess though, would love to hear from someone currently or that has previously worked at a ski area.



I think some of those employees are responsible for Belleayre's _summer_ programs. I haven't gone there in summertime, so I can't say how extensive it is. But it is an important distinction from areas that completely shut down over the summer.

Also: it sounds like some of the full-time employees will be replaced with part-timers or freelancers, so the work will still get done. Those workers just won't have the benefits of full-time employment.


----------



## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> ...
> Fourwheelers and snowmobiles can be serviced by local businesses, as can vans.  If they're on a lease program with snowcats, significant maintenance is unnecessary.
> 
> 
> ...



What local repair shops.
though there ares a couple new cats there are a few old ones and who is going to do that work.
And are they a state park open for all that is offered yr round?


----------



## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> no what i am saying is at what point do you make it yr round .Having seaonal winter with seasonal summer = yr round full time work..No?



A winter seasonal employee can become a summer seasonal employee..  Thats what happens at other ski areas...


----------



## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> What local repair shops.




The ones that will start up and add jobs to the valley..   If not already there...


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## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> What local repair shops.



There is not a single person in the valley who can work on a four wheeler?

Some ski areas have people they can give a call to, who will pull up with a trailer, take the bike back to their house or shop, service it, then bring it back, for a reasonable price.  In the middle of the ski season, when maintenance workers are focussed on snowmaking and grooming, it's a waste of resources to spend time on broken four wheelers.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> 55 full time year round benefitted employees seems way high for pretty much any Eastern Ski Resort.  I know we didn't have that many at Snowshoe when I worked there in 02.  That despite doing 500K skier visits and having revenue north of 35mil.





riverc0il said:


> I wonder if any one that actually works at a ski area (preferably privately held) could comment on the percentage of full time employees to part time and/or seasonal? My guess is that the adjustments bring Belleayre's work force into line with what is actually standard at other areas. Just my guess though, would love to hear from someone currently or that has previously worked at a ski area.



I'll try and jog my memory regarding year round benefitted staff when I worked Snowshoe.  Big operation with a large village and lodging for 5000+ slopeside, 12 Food and Beverage outlets, 5 retail stores, golf course, MTB operations.  

GM
Director of Lodging, Director of F&B, Director of IT, Director of Mountain OPS, Director of Retail, Director of Sales, Director of Communications, Director of Marketing, Director of Finance, Director of Golf/Ski School, Director of Loss Prevention / Security

2 - Security Personnel
4-5 - Lodging Managers
8-10 - Marketing/Sales/Communications Staff
Housekeeping Manager
Maintenance Manager and 4-5 year round workers
8 - F&B Managers / Culinary Staff
2 - IT support
4 - Accting
2 -3 - Year round Recreation folks.  Did Ski School in Winter, MTB operations in summer etc.

Approximately 50.  Though I'm not sure how Belleayre compares in terms of size to Snowshoe.


----------



## gmcunni (Nov 23, 2010)

not as large a ski area but Ski Sundown reports (as of Jan 2010) to employ 12 full timers and approx 400 seasonal workers.


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## drjeff (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll try and jog my memory regarding year round benefitted staff when I worked Snowshoe.  Big operation with a large village and lodging for 5000+ slopeside, 12 Food and Beverage outlets, 5 retail stores, golf course, MTB operations.
> 
> GM
> Director of Lodging, Director of F&B, Director of IT, Director of Mountain OPS, Director of Retail, Director of Sales, Director of Communications, Director of Marketing, Director of Finance, Director of Golf/Ski School, Director of Loss Prevention / Security
> ...



I think it's quite safe to say that Belleayre DOESN'T have the same quantity of mountain owned/managed lodging properties that Snowshoe does, and it seems like a significant portion of those F/T employees that you mentioned there DHS are tied to lodging needs.


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## catskillman (Nov 23, 2010)

This is crazy - like I said I am certain that this was no shock to these employees and hpefully they were proactive.  I would not be surprised to see the announcement of several new LLC's of the maintenance type being established in the ares.  OR - if the mountain needs some maintenace on a snow cat - they will call one of the seasonal maintenance associates from a neighboring mountain to help out on their day off.

every other mountain manages.  I cannot for begin to imagine how they got away with that kind of full time staff.  If I had one of those jobs I would be the most well read individuals in the state and would speak 5 languages.  What else would there be to do at worK?

Another thought - these folks can all apply for positiions at the new casino/resort Paterson is sliding through in his last days in office


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## 4aprice (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll try and jog my memory regarding year round benefitted staff when I worked Snowshoe.  Big operation with a large village and lodging for 5000+ slopeside, 12 Food and Beverage outlets, 5 retail stores, golf course, MTB operations.
> 
> GM
> Director of Lodging, Director of F&B, Director of IT, Director of Mountain OPS, Director of Retail, Director of Sales, Director of Communications, Director of Marketing, Director of Finance, Director of Golf/Ski School, Director of Loss Prevention / Security
> ...



Snowshoe is a resort, Belleayre is a ski area in the woods.  Alot of the positions you list would not be necessary at Bellearye. Camelback has a healthy year round business with the summer parks.  I'll try to find out what their full time staff is.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Approximately 50.  Though I'm not sure how Belleayre compares in terms of size to Snowshoe.



I don't have citable numbers, but I believe the rumor is that Belleayre skis 180K and Snowshoe 450K


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> I don't have citable numbers, but I believe the rumor is that Belleayre skis 180K and Snowshoe 450K



Then my experience at Wisp might be a more comparable comparison.  There I'd put the number around 20 year round full time employees.


----------



## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> There I'd put the number around 20 year round full time employees.



Are their benefits (health/retirement) comparable to State of NY?


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> Are their benefits (health/retirement) comparable to State of NY?



best health benefits I've ever had actually.  Zero out of pocket expense per pay check and the copays were very low.

Not sure what their retirement benefits were like as my year round full time position was cut after ski season, so I never became eligible. :lol:

Actually, I guess I should revise that statement to 15 year round full time and 5 nine month full time positions.  A handful of other positions were cut when mine was, then come summer they recreated the positions again.  End of the following season, the positions were cut once again.  I think that was part of their plan to get decent managers.  Sell them on year round employment, work them 80 hours a week through the ski season, then cut them in the spring.


----------



## millerm277 (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> no what i am saying is at what point do you make it yr round .Having seaonal winter with seasonal summer = yr round full time work..No?



If we're talking low-skill labor, which is most of the jobs, why on earth would you do that? Hiring two guys for 19 hours a week each is still going to be cheaper than one guy for 40 hours a week + benefits + retirement.


----------



## snafu (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> best health benefits I've ever had actually.  Zero out of pocket expense per pay check and the copays were very low.
> 
> Not sure what their retirement benefits were like as my year round full time position was cut after ski season, so I never became eligible. :lol:
> 
> Actually, I guess I should revise that statement to 15 year round full time and 5 nine month full time positions.  A handful of other positions were cut when mine was, then come summer they recreated the positions again.  End of the following season, the positions were cut once again.  I think that was part of their plan to get decent managers.  Sell them on year round employment, work them 80 hours a week through the ski season, then cut them in the spring.



Is Shoeshoe privately owned? If so I give them much respect for having that good of health benefits.

But I would bet that their retirement benefits pale in comparison to what NY state workers get. This is the BIG issue - defined benefit pensions that most public unions enjoy. They are simply not sustainable - workers usually pay a fraction into it while the state(taxpayers) puts in the rest. And these pension funds base their numbers on a 7-8% return on their investments - which these days is totally outrageous. So it comes down to cut or tax more. And taxpayers have had enough.


----------



## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

snafu said:


> Is Shoeshoe privately owned? If so I give them much respect for having that good of health benefits.
> 
> But I would bet that their retirement benefits pale in comparison to what NY state workers get. This is the BIG issue - defined benefit pensions that most public unions enjoy. They are simply not sustainable - workers usually pay a fraction into it while the state(taxpayers) puts in the rest. And these pension funds base their numbers on a 7-8% return on their investments - which these days is totally outrageous. So it comes down to cut or tax more. And taxpayers have had enough.



Great post.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 23, 2010)

snafu said:


> Is Shoeshoe privately owned? If so I give them much respect for having that good of health benefits.
> 
> But I would bet that their retirement benefits pale in comparison to what NY state workers get. This is the BIG issue - defined benefit pensions that most public unions enjoy. They are simply not sustainable - workers usually pay a fraction into it while the state(taxpayers) puts in the rest. And these pension funds base their numbers on a 7-8% return on their investments - which these days is totally outrageous. So it comes down to cut or tax more. And taxpayers have had enough.





threecy said:


> Great post.



Additionally, the per worker costs that NYS pays for medical/dental vs. what a private company pays don't compare either


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

snafu said:


> Is Shoeshoe privately owned? If so I give them much respect for having that good of health benefits.
> 
> But I would bet that their retirement benefits pale in comparison to what NY state workers get. This is the BIG issue - defined benefit pensions that most public unions enjoy. They are simply not sustainable - workers usually pay a fraction into it while the state(taxpayers) puts in the rest. And these pension funds base their numbers on a 7-8% return on their investments - which these days is totally outrageous. So it comes down to cut or tax more. And taxpayers have had enough.



I was referring to Wisp regarding the benefits.  Snowshoe's were pretty decent as well.  Snowshoe was owned by Intrawest at the time.

no doubt, very few privately held businesses have retirement plans anywhere near as rewarding as State plans.


----------



## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

millerm277 said:


> If we're talking low-skill labor, which is most of the jobs, why on earth would you do that? Hiring two guys for 19 hours a week each is still going to be cheaper than one guy for 40 hours a week + benefits + retirement.



Me , i would rather have the expense of a full timer versus the issues involved with 2 part timers who could possibly be  new hires that need to be trained over and over. Also full timers usually have way fewer issues than part timers .

State is saving 250 million on layoff and losing  5 billion a yr in medicare/medicaid fraud ..Who took the easy way out?

Same attitude most companys have..Make the easy cuts save a few bucks keep stock holders happy..God forbid we actually make cuts/savings where they  are really needed


----------



## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Me , i would rather have the expense of a full timer versus the issues involved with 2 part timers who could possibly be  new hires that need to be trained over and over. Also full timers usually have way fewer issues than part timers .



What if they were the same guy/guys who just took the Seasonal instead of losing a job?

Seems like a no brainer to Bell...


----------



## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> State is saving 250 million on layoff and losing  5 billion a yr in medicare/medicaid fraud ..Who took the easy way out?
> 
> Same attitude most companys have..Make the easy cuts save a few bucks keep stock holders happy..God forbid we actually make cuts/savings where they  are really needed



Why can't they do both?

Trim the staff and get a handle on fraud..


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## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> What if they were the same guy/guys who just took the Seasonal instead of losing a job?
> 
> Seems like a no brainer to Bell...



Got no real problem with that.


----------



## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> Why can't they do both?
> 
> Trim the staff and get a handle on fraud..



Then cut everybody to the bone and revamp medicare/medicaid now not later.

Problem is they are not cutting everybody and i do not see or hear anything about medicare/medicaid fix

And yes ,DMV and  DOT have planned layoffs but total layoffs for NYS is 898 plus early retirements.
Kinda thought i heard paterson to make layoff so cuomo wouldnt look like new bad guy which says to me hes not going to layoff anybody.


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Then cut everybody to the bone and revamp medicare/medicaid now not later.



To the bone implies nothing..
These people are being given the opportunity to become seasonal employees..

it's better then some get today..


----------



## millerm277 (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Me , i would rather have the expense of a full timer versus the issues involved with 2 part timers who could possibly be  new hires that need to be trained over and over. Also full timers usually have way fewer issues than part timers .



Sure, but what about the fact that most of these jobs don't take much training or skill to do? In that case, saving money and having the flexibility to not have to pay the people year round ("We don't need you for the months of June or July") or when things are slow, probably far outweighs the cost of training a guy for handful of hours in basic tasks.


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## catskills (Nov 23, 2010)

dmc said:


> To the bone implies nothing..
> These people are being given the opportunity to become seasonal employees..
> 
> it's better then some get today..


This post gets the Ebenezer Scroodge award.  Most of you on this thread should also get an Ebenezer Scroodge award.   Happy Holidays -   bah humbug  







You Scroodge wantabees can call in and tell Gov Patterson what a great job he is doing.

Gov. Paterson to take calls on WAMC


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

catskills said:


> This post gets the Ebenezer Scroodge award.  Most of you on this thread should also get an Ebenezer Scroodge award.   Happy Holidays -   bah humbug



whatever dude...   You think you know me... You don't...

I've been laid off before holidays before..  It sucks...  

All I'm saying is at least they have options...   Which is way better then no options..
With the saftey net - they'll receive unemployment... COBRA... and even retraining..

OR

they can take a seasonal job and probably keep COBRA benefits to hold them over...



You put a benefit together to support non-working families in the valley and I'll be the first one there...  We do benefits for Greene county during the XMAS season..  No problem...
Here's last years letter of thanks..
http://www.powderhound.org/OTHER/toys4tots/2009/2010-CAofGC-Thankyou-small.jpg


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## deadheadskier (Nov 23, 2010)

catskills said:


> This post gets the Ebenezer Scroodge award.  Most of you on this thread should also get an Ebenezer Scroodge award.   Happy Holidays -   bah humbug
> 
> 
> 
> ...



but people know full well that tourism in the catskills means seasonal employment.  No one is entitled to a full time year round job.  I moved away from Vermont as I wanted a full time year round job and there wasn't many there.


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> but people know full well that tourism in the catskills means seasonal employment.  No one is entitled to a full time year round job.  I moved away from Vermont as I wanted a full time year round job and there wasn't many there.



And thats why the Belleayre jobs were like gold around these parts... Everyone knew it  
Those days are gone...


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

Maybe they can hold out for this...
http://online.wsj.com/article/AP1b7fb19d2496453bb564d9ec85d4aca4.html



> ALBANY, N.Y. — A $400 million plan to build posh hotels high in the Catskill Mountains near an existing ski center has been knocking around since 1999. Supporters say it would bring tourists, jobs and money into the woodsy area and make it a first-class "ski destination."
> 
> But after 11 years — or more than half of Rip Van Winkle's famous 20-year nap in the storied mountains — there's still no approval for new construction near the state-run Belleayre Mountain Ski Center.
> 
> ...


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## snafu (Nov 23, 2010)

catskills said:


> This post gets the Ebenezer Scroodge award.  Most of you on this thread should also get an Ebenezer Scroodge award.   Happy Holidays -   bah humbug
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Call it what you want dude. Its the reality of the times, it should have been done SOONER and MORE cuts if you ask me, but I really have no dog in this fight, not a NY resident and I don't ski in the catskills. But I am a private business owner and a taxpayer, and that is where my view originates from.

If not wanting to pay more taxes for government excess makes me Scrooge McDuck, then so be it...I just want to see some sanity and parity between private/public workers compensation.


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## ta&idaho (Nov 23, 2010)

This is my fourth year following Northeastern ski resort news, and I'm pretty sure this is at least the third year in a row that I've seen a thread entitled something like "BELLEYEARE TO CLOSE UNLESS XXXXX HAPPENSS!!!!!!!!!!"  I support state-funded recreational opportunities, and I love to ski and ski cheaply (even Belleyare, although I agree with the DMCs of the world that Hunter + Plattekill trumps Belleayre almost all of the time), but this darn place is becoming the ski area that cried wolf.  The thread was titled "Belleayre *closing* due to layoffs," and there is a thread just like it on Epicski, and neither thread contains any support for the claim made in the title. One of these days Belleayre will face a truly desperate budget situation and nobody who might otherwise be persuaded to fire off a letter or something will know the difference.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

snafu said:


> I just want to see some sanity and parity between private/public workers compensation.



The politicians have been successful in creating the new "Welfare Mother", the "Public Worker".  While there are examples of patronage jobs, outrageous salaries and great retirement benefits the average public worker makes less in salary than the equivalent private sector job and the benefits were supposed to make the job worth it.

While it's true that a lot of the benefits have gotten out of line there are many other ways to save taxpayer money which involves some tough choices but the easy way out is to demonize the "Public Worker".  This keeps the constituency distracted from the real problems and makes for great soundbites and easy votes.  Lets eliminate as many middle class jobs as we can so all that's left is the unemployed, the working poor and the wealthy.  The middle class will be gone and who will the companies sell their cheap Made in China pieces of crap to.


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## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

Object of post was to put info out.
Same with other with same story line.
Even with the negatives, the post produced the positives that were needed.

State has a obligation to the area surrounding the mountain.
News links and rumours were posted for people outside the area that ski there but really dont know whats going on at area "out of state"

Last 2 yrs posts with same basic story line were not crying wolf.Due to response from local and out of state skiers and local busines owners funds were restored and ski area operated at full capacity.

Same with Alpinezone and TGR.
 All post were for same reason.

i am not here to judge.Not here to start a fight.I understand how some feel.But i needed to get the info out.

If they were to close i would just get a midweek pass at hunter "i dont hate hunter"and passes for jiminy peak.

I like Belleayre,ski it almost every day,and have made many friends.


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## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> While there are examples of patronage jobs, outrageous salaries and great retirement benefits the average public worker makes less in salary than the equivalent private sector job


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## threecy (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> Object of post was to put info out.
> Same with other with same story line.
> Even with the negatives, the post produced the positives that were needed.



So you knew when you made the original post that Belleayre indeed wasn't closing, but posted that anyway?


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> So you knew when you made the original post that Belleayre indeed wasn't closing, but posted that anyway?



The sky is falling!!!

wait...

Wolf wolf!!!!


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


>



Is that the average salary per worker or average total compensation for the workforce?  I think that the average unskilled public worker makes less than their private sector counterpart but public labor are rarely "downsized" while private sector employers constantly cut jobs to boost the stock price leading to lower labor costs due to efficiency.

Originally public sector work paid poorly and as I said the benefits made it worth the low salaries.  If public sector salaries are higher now it is more likely that the private sector pay has not kept up.  The strong contracts of the public sector employees were not chipped away at like the private sector.

It doesn't change my opinion that the "Public Worker" is the new scapegoat for all our tax problems.


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## dmc (Nov 23, 2010)

skidbump said:


> State has a obligation to the area surrounding the mountain.



And to the state as well..  

most people i know day trip to Bell..  they pack lunches..

I'm wondering what the financial impact will actually be...  

I'm thinking that this will free up jobs for local people not in the union..


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## snafu (Nov 23, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> The politicians have been successful in creating the new "Welfare Mother", the "Public Worker".  While there are examples of patronage jobs, outrageous salaries and great retirement benefits the average public worker makes less in salary than the equivalent private sector job and the benefits were supposed to make the job worth it.


 One thing that has made them successful is backing from public unions. For the second part please see threecy's graph. 



> While it's true that a lot of the benefits have gotten out of line there are many other ways to save taxpayer money which involves some tough choices but the easy way out is to demonize the "Public Worker".  This keeps the constituency distracted from the real problems and makes for great soundbites and easy votes.  Lets eliminate as many middle class jobs as we can so all that's left is the unemployed, the working poor and the wealthy.  The middle class will be gone and who will the companies sell their cheap Made in China pieces of crap to.



How is it the "easy" way out to say we have to cut jobs and that families will be affected? I'm thankful its not my job to lay them off, and on a personal level I do feel for them. But I've been laid off twice in my life and bounced back, its possible and the adversity builds some character:grin:. So I disagree that this is the easy way out, quite the contrary. You are also ingoring the fact that at state and local levels what else is there to cut? 

Employees make up a major share of those budgets, medical benefits and pensions are 
the elephants in the room. Health benefits are way out of line with what private employees get and defined benefit pensions? Those words do not seem to exist outside government work anymore. 

Whats worse is how its the norm to pad your annual salary with massive overtime in order to increase pension benefits(basing pay on best years salary) and other double-dip(retire with benefits then work part-time consult) shenanigans there is plenty the public worker is doing that doesn't help with their image. 

Add to that being able to retire after 20 or so years with full benefits for life at 45 years old and its simple math(as well as fund managers who fantasize about risk-free 8% annual return) that say its simply unsustainable. 


Ok, sorry to be so off-topic - I am done...


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## skidbump (Nov 23, 2010)

threecy said:


> So you knew when you made the original post that Belleayre indeed wasn't closing, but posted that anyway?



No, msg to me was my first post. this came to me from a vendor


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## RichT (Nov 23, 2010)

Got an e-mail from Belleayre @ 5:57 tonite with the headline "BELLEAYRE TO OPEN THIS WEEKEND"!! WWWWWHHHHHHHHAAAAAATTTTTTTT! it's going to rain! Wouldn't you think they would wait till aleast the weathter stays cold for alonger period of time instead of during the wee hours of the night?


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

Double post, computer froze.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

snafu said:


> One thing that has made them successful is backing from public unions. For the second part please see threecy's graph.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really don't think the lifties and mechanics at Belleayre are getting rich working for the government.  I'm not talking about police and such, I may be wrong but I don't think there is any retiring at 45 after 20 years or so and being set for life for the average state laborer.

I never meant it was "easy" to lay off people but it is "easy" to make public workers and unions scapegoats for budget issues and taxes.  It's a great distraction for the tough budget issues and sounds plausible to the average Joe.  Scapegoating is a time honored tradition.

Plus, I'm sure the pols friends and family aren't getting laid off from their do nothing, no show jobs.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

RichT said:


> Got an e-mail from Belleayre @ 5:57 tonite with the headline "BELLEAYRE TO OPEN THIS WEEKEND"!! WWWWWHHHHHHHHAAAAAATTTTTTTT! it's going to rain! Wouldn't you think they would wait till aleast the weathter stays cold for alonger period of time instead of during the wee hours of the night?



I hope that's true, then I'll be skiing next Tuesday!

BTW the base of Belleayre is at 2000' so there is a good chance the rain everywhere else will be snow there and the snowmaking temps last longer.  I've had a few times where I drove to Bell and it was raining the whole drive until I drove up the access road, then it changed to snow.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 23, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> I hope that's true, then I'll be skiing next Tuesday!
> 
> BTW the base of Belleayre is at 2000' so there is a good chance the rain everywhere else will be snow there and the snowmakking temps last longer.  I've had a few times where I drove to Bell and it was raining the whole drive until I drove up the access road, then it changed to snow.


I was thinking Monday, but Tuesday works just as well.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 23, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I was thinking Monday, but Tuesday works just as well.



Shoot me a PM, my daughter is in pre-school Tuesdays so it's a better day for my wife who would have to work from home and watch the girl on Monday.


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## goldsbar (Nov 23, 2010)

So much hate, where to start...

First, I'm an expert skier and Belleayre is my favorite in the Catskills.  If I had my choice, I'd ski Castlerock at Sugarbush every week but that's not going to happen (or Jackson Hole, etc. but that's dreaming).  If you're an exert you know nothing inbounds in the Cats is truly expert.  Hunter can be great but I find Belleayre, while less steep overall, is more consitantly bumped up and generally gets more snow so the woods are in more.  Love Plattekill but the extra drive is a bit of a killer.

Second, I'm totally against government running businesses but is this really the problem?  Are lifties making $100k/year and retiring after 20 with full benefits and pension?  Doubt it.  I get pissed when they offer $20 tickets because the place gets too crowded.  I have to guess this place is pretty vital for the area.  Maybe privatize but don't close down.  Still, plenty of sympathy for Hunter/Wyndham/Plattekill when Belleayre starts to offer below market pricing.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 23, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Shoot me a PM, my daughter is in pre-school Tuesdays so it's a better day for my wife who would have to work from home and watch the girl on Monday.


Will do over the weekend.


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## riverc0il (Nov 23, 2010)

catskills said:


> NY state is cutting cutting 48 jobs out of 55.  Most of these positions earn around $15 an hour.  That leaves 7 full time employees.  Are you saying that you can run a  down hill ski area, ski school, ski patrol, cross country ski area, lift maintenance, snow making, grooming, security, summer  lake/boating/picnic area,  summer concert every weekend, summer sky ride, summer biking, wedding events, and new construction improvements with *7 employees?*   Wow that would be awesome if you could.
> 
> There is so much BS on this forum you could fill a very large garbage truck.


No, you could not run that type of operation with seven employees. And also, that is not what I said nor suggested. Seven full time employees does not mean only seven people run the operation. You can have seasonal workers that work 40 hours a week, and you can have lots of them.


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## thinnmann (Nov 23, 2010)

http://www.belleayre.com/emails/specials.htm

snip--->>>

_November 23, 2010 Highmount, NY – Calling all hardcore Belleayre friends and family! Temperatures in Highmount are dropping into the 20s at night which is good weather for snowmaking at Belleayre as the mountain prepares to open for the 2010-2011 skiing and riding season this weekend after the Thanksgiving holiday. People are getting their gear tuned up in anticipation of hitting the slopes as Belleayre gets ready to open its doors for the 61st season of operation catering to skiers and snowboarders. PLEASE NOTE: At this point it is too close to call whether the mountain will open Friday, Saturday or Sunday, so stay tuned to the Belleayre website and make sure to be here on opening day which will feature $25 lift tickets._​


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## krisskis (Nov 23, 2010)

oakapple said:


> I don’t actually recall anyone using “hate” to describe Hunter. I suspect you are mistaking “hate” for merely, “doesn’t like it as much as you do.”
> 
> 
> Some advanced skiers, and I fear you may be one of them, have completely forgotten what it was like to be intermediate. There actually is a decent amount of intermediate terrain on the main hill at Hunter (Belt Parkway, White Cloud, 42nd Street, 7th Avenue, Gun Hill Road, Kennedy Drive, etc.).
> ...



Ok...sorry i used the word "hate". As DMC said..."strongly dislike".

And yes i am an advanced skier but not being as young as i once was, towards the later part of the day i prefer to ski "groomers and cruisers" and tend to stick to intermediate trails later on as my knees cant handle it aymore  So i HAVE NOT forgotten what it is like to be an intermediate skier.


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## thinnmann (Nov 24, 2010)

Screen capture from Belleayre Web Site Homepage:


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## Rob A (Nov 24, 2010)

Well it looks like everything sorted itself out and Bell will be opening this weekend. I will most likely wait till early December to make the trip up there and open my season. I had originally planned on going this Friday, but if they even are open, the amount of terrain won't make it worth the trip.


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## k123 (Nov 24, 2010)

I am hoping to get up there on Sunday if they end up opening. They should have some good snowmaking tonight, friday night and saturday night, with some possible natural snow on thursday night into friday.  

Wetbulb temps below 20 degrees are good quality snowmaking temps so it looks like they will be getting some tonight.


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## thinnmann (Nov 24, 2010)

http://www.catskillmountainnews.com/content/belleayre-staffers-cry-foul-over-job-cuts-0

snip--->>>

_All of the workers being laid off at Belleayre Mountain have reportedly been offered seasonal positions, with no salary protection, and a 20 percent reduction in annual hours.
Seasonal employees are limited to 1,750 hours of work in one year. The workers will be allowed to maintain their benefits if they return as seasonal workers._​
Unfortunately I am not a subscriber.  Only subscribers can see the whole story.

But the workers will maintain their benefits if the return as seasonal workers, so it says.  That is something!


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## k123 (Nov 25, 2010)

I called the belleayre snow phone and they are saying they are trying to open on Friday...... Probably won't be until Saturday or Sunday.


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## dmc (Nov 25, 2010)

thinnmann said:


> http://www.catskillmountainnews.com/content/belleayre-staffers-cry-foul-over-job-cuts-0
> 
> snip--->>>
> 
> ...



Thats huge...  Almost 44 weeks pay.  And Benefits...  Collect unemployment between seasons...  Wonder if that includes retirement?


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## MarkC (Nov 26, 2010)

According to my facebook update it looks like Belleayre will be opening tomorrow.  It looks like the savings from the layoffs will be going to good use.


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## RichT (Nov 26, 2010)

why no webcams?? pic of day is from nov 15th!............


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## MarkC (Nov 26, 2010)

RichT said:


> why no webcams?? pic of day is from nov 15th!............



Webcams would be great. We could watch our tax dollars melt in real time.


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## zinger3000 (Nov 26, 2010)

Their website says they're opening tomorrow (Saturday) with 2 lifts and 2 trails.


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## Rambo (Nov 26, 2010)

RichT said:


> why no webcams?? pic of day is from nov 15th!............



New Pic of day for Fri. 11/26/10


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## Rob A (Nov 26, 2010)

Is Onteora open from the top or just midstation?


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## RootDKJ (Nov 26, 2010)

Rambo said:


> New Pic of day for Fri. 11/26/10


Thanks looks pretty good


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## RichT (Nov 26, 2010)

this is from this morning after a night of snowmaking? why isn't there any snow/ice in those trees? as you can tell i'm having a hard time with this, because this is MY hard earned tax dollars andtypical of the goverment they waste it!!!


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## skidbump (Nov 26, 2010)

Rob A said:


> Is Onteora open from the top or just midstation?



Mid


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## 180 (Nov 26, 2010)

Talk about the worst POD I have ever seen.  You can barley see the trail.  They must have made a lot of snow weeks ago and it actually lasted.  If they made in the last few days, they hid it well.


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## thinnmann (Nov 26, 2010)

180 said:


> Talk about the worst POD I have ever seen.  You can barley see the trail.  They must have made a lot of snow weeks ago and it actually lasted.  If they made in the last few days, they hid it well.



It is probably not groomed yet in the photo....

Stokage pics:

Opening day, 28 November 2008 was awesome...


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## skidbump (Nov 26, 2010)

sorry to say..It aint goona look like that tomorrow


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 26, 2010)

Rambo said:


> New Pic of day for Fri. 11/26/10



Can't wait 'till Tuesday.  I'll lap it all day.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 26, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Can't wait 'till Tuesday.  I'll lap it all day.


The weather looks like rain for Tuesday.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 26, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> The weather looks like rain for Tuesday.



It won't be my first time starting my season at Bell in the rain, I'll still go.  Accuweather says "rain possible" so maybe it won't rain at all.

Or maybe I'll try to change it to Monday, I'll figure it out.


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 27, 2010)

Now the NWS is saying a 50% chance of a wintry mix for Tuesday in Highmount, NY.
http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...LY&textField1=42.1614&textField2=-74.4504&e=0


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## catskills (Nov 27, 2010)

NY State won’t reverse cuts at Belleayre Ski Center

The reality of the looming job losses is settling in.

The Board of Directors and staff of the Pine Hill Community Center extended their sympathies to the individuals and families who will be affected by the Belleayre cuts and offered help  finding support services that might alleviate any financial and emotional stress related to the loss of work.

“We can help you gain access to programs such as assistance with home heating bills, unemployment, temporary financial assistance, food stamps, food banks and counseling,” the board said in a prepared statement.

Those who might be in need of such programs are encouraged to call the center at (845) 254-5469.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 27, 2010)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Now the NWS is saying a 50% chance of a wintry mix for Tuesday in Highmount, NY.
> http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...LY&textField1=42.1614&textField2=-74.4504&e=0


I'm going to go for Monday.  It just works better for me.


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## k123 (Nov 27, 2010)

I am going to belleayre tomorrow!!! 

They are going to have lift 7 with onteora and wanatuska from midstation down


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## ERJ-145CA (Nov 27, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> I'm going to go for Monday.  It just works better for me.



I'll let you know if I decide to go for Monday instead.


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