# Silly question about rainice..



## tcharron (Dec 11, 2008)

I'm feeling really silly, but I have a question for you weather buffs.

  How exactly do we end up with pouring rain that practically freezes on contact to the group?  Why doesn't it turn to sleet and or snow?

  My kids asked, and I came up with the basic excuses, but like, right now, it's like 28 degrees out, and my porch stairs now look like a waterfall of ice.

  Just curious what the more informed explanation might is so I can answer it for the kids with a bit more intelligence.  :-D


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Dec 11, 2008)

Freezing rain is caused when the surface is below freezing but the atmosphere down to within a few hundred feet of the ground is above freezing..raindrops fall and freeze on contact.  I was in the great ice storm of 1998 in Montreal.  There was 3-4 days of heavy rain with temperatures in the teens and low 20s.  A total mess but I was skiing Jay Peak with a friend in rain and we decided to drive up to witness the Ice Storm..

Sleet occurs when there is warm air in the atmosphere but a deeper layer of below freezing air near the surface..For snow..you need a very deep layer of cold air..even if the surface/ground temperature is above freezing, snow can fall and accumulate based on intensity.  I've seen snow fall up to the upper 30s..


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## drjeff (Dec 11, 2008)

Simple way to think about it.  Picture the atmosphere as a 5 layer cake.  The top layer or two is frozen.  Then the middle layers to just above the bottom layer(ground level) are above freezing.  Then the immediate ground layer is frozen again.

Basically what falls at cloud level starts as snow.  Then melts in the middle warm layers, but DOESN'T have time to refreeze in the immediate ground layer.  But since that ground level is below freezing, that liquid freezes on contact when it hits the ground.  Voila, freezing rain


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## tcharron (Dec 11, 2008)

Yea, I know about the supercooled water concept, it just seems like tonight, the temps are really down there.  I'd be really suprised if their air up there was really THAT warm..  *shrug*

Just seemed funny today, with the temps so darned cold, and sheet rain a second ago.


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## Zand (Dec 11, 2008)

It depends on the warm air aloft. If the air is cold from clouds to ground, it'll snow. If it's warm aloft but cold for the couple thousand feet or so before the ground, then it'll sleet because the precip has a chance to refreeze before it hits the ground. If it's warm aloft and not cold right at the ground (tonight), the precipitation will not freeze until contact with the ground and you get freezing rain. All depends on how the pressure systems are set up, etc. Right now, there's a high pressure in Quebec which is funneling cold air in, but only at lower levels because cold heavy air drops. Coastal storms are low pressures and when it takes an inland track like this one, we're on the warm side which causes warm air to spill in aloft, but stay up high because light, warm air rises. It's very complex and sometimes annoying, but that's winter.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Dec 11, 2008)

tcharron said:


> Yea, I know about the supercooled water concept, it just seems like tonight, the temps are really down there.  I'd be really suprised if their air up there was really THAT warm..  *shrug*
> 
> Just seemed funny today, with the temps so darned cold, and sheet rain a second ago.



Valley locations are more susceptable ton freezing rain.  Often times when I've skied in Freezing rain, I am warm and soaked at the top and cold and frozen at the bottom..weird..but cool..skiing in inversions happens alot..


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## jaywbigred (Dec 11, 2008)

Interesting guys, thanks for the explanations.


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## severine (Dec 11, 2008)

All I'm picturing in my head right now are those precip charts we had to diagram in high school about the water cycle... LOL.


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## loafer89 (Dec 12, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Freezing rain is caused when the surface is below freezing but the atmosphere down to within a few hundred feet of the ground is above freezing..raindrops fall and freeze on contact. I was in the great ice storm of 1998 in Montreal. There was 3-4 days of heavy rain with temperatures in the teens and low 20s. A total mess but I was skiing Jay Peak with a friend in rain and we decided to drive up to witness the Ice Storm..
> 
> Sleet occurs when there is warm air in the atmosphere but a deeper layer of below freezing air near the surface..For snow..you need a very deep layer of cold air..even if the surface/ground temperature is above freezing, snow can fall and accumulate based on intensity. I've seen snow fall up to the upper 30s..


 
I was at Sugarloaf during the 1998 icestorm and we had a temperature of 17F with freezing rain and 4" of ice accumulation. Luckily we did not lose power and the upper mountain had 6-8" of sleet which made for some nice skiing.


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## Warp Daddy (Dec 12, 2008)

We lived thru the 1998 ice storm many in our town were without power for  TWO WEEKS, several outlying areas were out for A MONTH 

It was horrible _ we had to grocery  shop with a police escort  you were allowed only just so much per family . Our college  was taken over by the National Guard , The college  Gym was set up as a she;lter  we had power Thru PORTABLE boilers 

 people were restricted from driving UNLESS they had a PASS , folks were arrested for driving without passes , wires and trees down everywhere ONLY old ANALOG phones worked , No TV or radio 

I was Fortunate we only lost power at our home for 8 hrs  but for that XMAS I had  purchased a new gas fireeplace installed and THAT worked.


Had 3.5 INCHES of ice on our roofs  --- it was NASTY  But we had FREEZER parties using our GAS grills and atre like kings in spite of it People came together , several friends without power bunked in here till it was restored  -- areal experience i HOPE NEVER to have again


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## ripzillia (Dec 12, 2008)

Wow there's alot of Meteorological information here, Actually FR can happen from different weather phenomenons. Bottom line is the H2O in a liquid state is super cooled but needs friction/impact to heat up enough to freeze. Don't make it hader than it is.;-)


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## loafer89 (Dec 12, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> We lived thru the 1998 ice storm many in our town were without power for TWO WEEKS, several outlying areas were out for A MONTH
> 
> It was horrible _ we had to grocery shop with a police escort you were allowed only just so much per family . Our college was taken over by the National Guard , The college Gym was set up as a she;lter we had power Thru PORTABLE boilers
> 
> ...


 
It seems like we where sitting pretty at sugarloaf while the rest of Northern New England / New York suffered quite a bit. We only lost cable TV about 3/4 of the way through the storm and the lifts at the mountain kept running the whole time. Travel was not restricted, but we had to wait two days after the storm ended to drive south due to blocked roads.

My brother lives in Montreal and he had no power dring the 1998 icestorm and it was down to 39F in his home.


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## campgottagopee (Dec 12, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> We lived thru the 1998 ice storm many in our town were without power for  TWO WEEKS, several outlying areas were out for A MONTH
> 
> It was horrible _ we had to grocery  shop with a police escort  you were allowed only just so much per family . Our college  was taken over by the National Guard , The college  Gym was set up as a she;lter  we had power Thru PORTABLE boilers
> 
> ...




At that time my sister and bil lived up your way in Potsdam....they tell a very similar story to yours---the had a wood stove and a fireplace so that's how the cooked and stayed warm for (i think) 9 days total. My B I L had t-shirts made up that said " Real Men Don't Take Sponge Baths" I survived the ice storm of 1998---still have one as a constant reminder


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## Warp Daddy (Dec 12, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> At that time my sister and bil lived up your way in Potsdam....they tell a very similar story to yours---the had a wood stove and a fireplace so that's how the cooked and stayed warm for (i think) 9 days total. My B I L had t-shirts made up that said " Real Men Don't Take Sponge Baths" I survived the ice storm of 1998---still have one as a constant reminder



 Yep THAT whole episode was a REAL character - builder 

The Very best of human nature came out during this crisis ---------------------and NINE months later a mini population  boom -- hadta keep warm SOME way


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## tcharron (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks for the info guys.  I don't feel quite so dumb anymore.  :-D  The "Icey '08" seems like it had some seriouse funk with it, which is why I really couldn't figure out why it was coming down and instafreezing like, *all night*

Looks like I'm without power at least untill this weekend.  *sigh*  Fire department stopped by a few minutes ago to let us know we'd be without for a while.


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## WJenness (Dec 15, 2008)

tcharron said:


> Looks like I'm without power at least untill this weekend.  *sigh*  Fire department stopped by a few minutes ago to let us know we'd be without for a while.



That's harsh.

Do you guys have a generator or at least a way to keep warm?

-w


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## tcharron (Dec 15, 2008)

WJenness said:


> That's harsh.
> Do you guys have a generator or at least a way to keep warm?
> -w



Have Wood heat as backup the propane.  Both portable generators we have are DOA, so no electricity, but we've got access to showers are work and the such.  Kind of annoyed about all the food that's going to go bad with todays warmup.  We'd reverted to coolers outside.  :-D


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## hammer (Dec 15, 2008)

tcharron said:


> Thanks for the info guys.  I don't feel quite so dumb anymore.  :-D  The "Icey '08" seems like it had some seriouse funk with it, which is why I really couldn't figure out why it was coming down and instafreezing like, *all night*
> 
> Looks like I'm without power at least untill this weekend.  *sigh*  Fire department stopped by a few minutes ago to let us know we'd be without for a while.


I feel your pain...I've been without power since Thursday night, although I'm closer to a city (Nashua) so I certainly hope we won't be out for much longer.

When we had our addition put on, I made sure I had a gas fireplace put in that works during a power outage...so glad I made that decision now.


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