# Whaleback Mountain to cease operations



## Nick (Mar 14, 2013)

Via their Facebook page: 



> Dear Whaleriders;
> 
> Thanks to you and your support Whaleback Mountain is an incredible resource for this community. It is also one that has been a great joy to be a part of. In the local paper there will be news about the mountain’s future, and we want to try to let you know what is happening.
> 
> ...



Saw this posted in the other thread as well but thought it deserved its own discussion. Unfortunately, I've never had the opportunity to ski Whaleback.


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## 4aprice (Mar 14, 2013)

Skied it in the late 70's when I was going to school up there. Was a home mountain for 3 years of my life.   A fun kick ass little mountain with short trails but some good steep shots and good bumps on Face and Blowhole.  Am I sad? absolutely, surprised? no.  They had little snowmaking when I was there and I don't know what water source they have.  Even so there just isn't enough skiing/boarding population in that area to support it.  It's interesting, that I was reading an article that some of the small municiple ski areas were reopening or looking into it as a cheap alternative to the big resorts.  (article was about Mt Eustis and Littleton, NH).   Lebanon has such a place called Storrs Hill.  Whaleback, I'll cherish the memories.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Nick (Mar 14, 2013)

It will be interesting to see how it evolves. Before joining AlpineZone I never had spent much time thinking about ski area operations. But now I think about it a lot more. 

I do wonder based on the few years I've been following the industry how this all plays out long term. It seems the "big resorts" grow and are fairly stable (the Killington, Sugarbush, Sugarloaf, Jay Peak, etc.). But the small ones struggle big time. They are mostly mom-and-pop ski areas. 

You've got the co-op at MRG. Mountain Riders Alliance at Mt Abram. Volunteers and donations at Squaw. Co-op at Magic (I believe?). 

How will all this work in the long-run? Is it truly sustainable? or is consolidation and reduction of ski areas inevitable? 

Without looking at NELSAP stats I"m interested in what the #'s look like from a Number of Ski Areas perspective over time. I'd imagine that number is always shrinking. What is the "newest" ski area in the Northeast? i.e. a full area, not just a  trail.


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## yeggous (Mar 14, 2013)

Nick said:


> What is the "newest" ski area in the Northeast? i.e. a full area, not just a  trail.



Probably the reborn Crotched Mountain.


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## Conrad (Mar 14, 2013)

What a loss this would be if they had to close and sell off all of the assets (i.e. chairlift). I've heard nothing but positive things about this place and have occasionally driven by the place on the way to Vermont. In hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst, if anyone is visiting there this weekend and wants to help out the French ski lift website remontees-mecaniques by photographing the lift, please let me know.


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## Bostonian (Mar 14, 2013)

Like many others here, I have driven by it on the way back from VT.  I can imagine the impact that this will have on the region.  You figure you have the towns of Lebanon, Plainfield, Enfield, and Hanover within the immediate area of the ski area.  While not the biggest place in the world, it certainly catered to the local community.  it would be great it a coop stepped in to save the ski area.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2013)

And I had just commented that it was great that they were able to make it, but it appears that they can't keep going.    Too bad.  They were doing a lot of good things.


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## billski (Mar 14, 2013)

And once again, a new buyer purchases it at market value and, unless it has deep pockets (like Jay), incurs significant debt.  I wonder if the town was giving them a tax break?  That would have helps, though I don't know how much.

It's hard to fathom, but having skied at both areas and talked with both owners, Cochran's is "competition" which siphons off the young beginners with after school programs.  Cochran's has stayed in the family and is most likely debt-free.  If the Cochran family de-commits the future will be in jeopardy. Cochran's is also closer to Burlington and always has been super-busy when I've been there. Whaleback also get competition from Bolton; I see lots of day tripping families go to Bolton.  so Whaleback is caught in a squeeze between big and small.    If Whaleback was the only show in town, it might have worked.   The niche it tried to fill was too narrow and make a profit.

Community areas, like Northeast slopes survive because it's town land and run by volunteers.  The overhead is probably limited to the grooming, lift equipment and insurance based on what I saw, and the guys I talked to.

For those who have never been, here is your chance, right now to do it.  No excuses!  They are operating through the end of the season.  See riverc0il's TR from a couple weeks back.

I feel the worst for the investors, Ivan in particular, a world-class racer with a dream.  The effort they put into this must have been Herculean.   Not sure co-op would work given the market squeeze.  to see the facility dormant in the summer (save for paintball) was a problem.  Deeper pockets invested in infrastructure for summer activities.  No money to do that.  Sad.


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## 4aprice (Mar 14, 2013)

billski said:


> Whaleback also get competition from Bolton; I see lots of day tripping families go to Bolton.  so Whaleback is caught in a squeeze between big and small.    If Whaleback was the only show in town, it might have worked.   The niche it tried to fill was too narrow and make a profit.



Whaleback isn't that close to Bolton or Burlington.  Its competition is Dartmouth, Sunapee, Ragged and the old Ascutney, but your point is well taken.  Like I said Lebanon already has Storrs Hill as an intown cheap alternative.  With the really big boys within easy drivable distance it really doesn't have much of a chance. (think King Ridge).  A shame? yes but part of the evolution of our sport.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2013)

I don't think that Cochran's or Bolton were in competition with Whaleback at all. They are quite far apart geographically. All three cater to largely local markets...and the Bolton/Cochran market in no way overlaps with Whaleback. 

Whaleback was a local affair. Its main competition would have been Suicide Six, Ascutney, Dartmouth Ski Way, and maybe even Storr's Hill. Lots of kids and families who would stay local; but others would make the drive to Killington.

As someone who lived in the Upper Valley from 2005-2007, I can say that I did hear a lot about Whaleback...little or nothing about Ascutney.  I never did manage to get to Whaleback because they just did not make much snow or have a long season at all.  I did want to go nightskiing there, but never did.  

I know that they were going after the freeskiing crowd and were doing a lot of park/skateboard stuff.  They initially were going to build a huge building near the base for the indoor park...and they started...but ran out of money.  Honestly they were relying on the bar to make the revenue for them.


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## bobbutts (Mar 14, 2013)

They didn't get criticized much here because it's a small place run by a skiing icon with and old school natural vibe and good natural terrain.  The snowmaking and grooming were not even close to competitive for the region.  The lodge and food not good.  Night lighting didn't work all that well, it was too dark to ski comfortably there at night.  I'm sure there was more, I've only been a 5-10 times over the past several years.  Fun place to go when there's good natural snow, but located where that's not very common.  I think it's a tough one, because I'm not sure that spending a bunch of money on that stuff would have made it a success either.  

In the end it stinks to lose another place where the price was reasonable and the skiing was good and uncrowded.


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## dlague (Mar 14, 2013)

billski said:


> It's hard to fathom, but having skied at both areas and talked with both owners, Cochran's is "competition" which siphons off the young beginners with after school programs.  Cochran's has stayed in the family and is most likely debt-free.  If the Cochran family de-commits the future will be in jeopardy. Cochran's is also closer to Burlington and always has been super-busy when I've been there. Whaleback also get competition from Bolton; I see lots of day tripping families go to Bolton.  so Whaleback is caught in a squeeze between big and small.    If Whaleback was the only show in town, it might have worked.   The niche it tried to fill was too narrow and make a profit.



Unfortunately I do not think Cochrans or Bolton Valey are the real competition.  They are over an hour away.  There are several nearby ski areas similar in size for example Dartmouth Skiway, Crotched, Pats Peak, Suicide Six and even Arrowhead in Claremont, all with in a 40-45 mile radius!  In fact Dartmouth Skiway is 12 miles from Lebanon cost $5 more to ski at and is nearly three times the size with a beautiful base lodge.  In any case, these are all small ski areas - most of them have strong local programs for racing, school programs, events - most are more full service places and they are all feeder ski/snowboard areas!

I have been to Whaleback once and it had an interesting vibe 70's like but these days services are key and without decent food and a full bar with entertainment - people lose interest.  With one chair lift, it was a little problematic since it was slow and lift lines developed quickly.  We gave our teenagers comp tickets to go there and they declined!  It is sad to see a place like this go!   I think if the lodge could have been spruced up and had better food bar service that might have helped a little more not to mention another lift option (but that is cost prohibitive).  The perfect example of a well run ski area that is small is Pats Peak - that model needed to be established here!

If it somehow is revived, they need to get creative in terms of revenue generation!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> They didn't get criticized much here because it's a small place run by a skiing icon with and old school natural vibe and good natural terrain. The snowmaking and grooming were not even close to competitive for the region. The lodge and food not good. Night lighting didn't work all that well, it was too dark to ski comfortably there at night. I'm sure there was more, I've only been a 5-10 times over the past several years. Fun place to go when there's good natural snow, but located where that's not very common. I think it's a tough one, because I'm not sure that spending a bunch of money on that stuff would have made it a success either.
> 
> In the end it stinks to lose another place where the price was reasonable and the skiing was good and uncrowded.



I just don't think they ever had enough money to make it work.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2013)

Damn

Feel kind of guilty not supporting Whaleback in recent years.  I skied there in High School and really enjoyed it.   

Hopefully it makes a come back.  Going to take someone with deep pockets and a passion for the sport who isn't looking to make much money.  The Upper Valley has approximately 100K people with a fairly high average income, but with so many other areas within an hour of there, it's tough to make things work.  

One idea would be (and this doesn't work so well now that CNL owns it) to have Okemo/Sunapee buy it and use it as an inexpensive feeder / night skiing hill for their larger areas.  If you could offer Whaleback on the same pass, you might get some night skiing business from the Sunapee skiers and less so Okemo skiers.  Offer a Whaleback only pass for cheap to get people into the sport and maybe those newbies become future Sunapee/Okemo pass holders.


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## riverc0il (Mar 14, 2013)

Damn. So Sad. I just skied there for the first time last Saturday (*Whaleback is AWESOME!!*) and I had an incredible day. It may be small at only 700 vertical but it skis bigger because it has legit steep and interesting terrain (Blow Hole, Face, Jawbone, and a few trees on and off map). I'd put trails like Blow Hole and Jawbone up against some of the best trails in New England, no joke. Very sad to see them close as I just discovered them and I was ready to patronize them yearly going forward.

But that is the big problem I think... so I many of us didn't ski there. They reopened many years ago but so few of us went there to experience the place. Whaleback's biggest challenge is lack of snowmaking, IMO. The Upper Valley is a giant dry slot for most storms. And Whaleback's best terrain is all natural. I waited all season for a good day to go there so I could ski their best terrain. Their best terrain just isn't open enough and without their double diamond rated terrain, there isn't enough there for a full day. 

The community vibe runs very strong at the Whale. I really hope the mountain can be acquired by the town or operated by a non-profit community organization. The problem is that Whaleback's creditors are going to want to get paid and they aren't just going to give away the mountain for free. I can see the Whale making a community come back just like Squaw. But they would need to get the land leased for a $1 without taxes to make that work, like Squaw has for a deal. They seems unlikely.


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## RISkier (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm not surprised. I wish places like this could thrive but I'm not surprised. We live live South. Wa is closest for a day trip and we can get to Berkshire East, Pats, Sunapee, and probably gunstocks faster. If you are a little Norath and or West you're an easy drive from much larger areas. A place like this really has to make it in a very local market. And I think that's really hard these days.


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## jack97 (Mar 14, 2013)

This blows. Like many, not surprise about the news. That place has had a string of bad luck, first year they re-open, their only chair lift was not working for start of the season and then their only groomer was out service. Then we had a series of lean snow years in NE which hurts them more given their lack of snowmaking. 

I was talking about Crotched with my daughter, the only reason they could make it to 10 years was that they had financial security to install modern snowmaking, well maintained fleet of groomers and experience staff to keep the operation going. Right now, a ski area needs deep pockets just to compete. 

I feel fortunate that I am within reasonable driving time to several small to med size areas that has the community vibe, akin to what I felt at Whaleback.


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## medfordmike (Mar 14, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> Damn. So Sad. I just skied there for the first time last Saturday (*Whaleback is AWESOME!!*) and I had an incredible day. It may be small at only 700 vertical but it skis bigger because it has legit steep and interesting terrain (Blow Hole, Face, Jawbone, and a few trees on and off map). I'd put trails like Blow Hole and Jawbone up against some of the best trails in New England, no joke. Very sad to see them close as I just discovered them and I was ready to patronize them yearly going forward.



I was sad to see the news but not surprised. I agree that Whaleback was underrated.  The past two winters have not been kind.  But three winters ago when it seemed like snow fell each week and stuck around I decided to give Whaleback a try.  Got a great deal on Liftopia so went up not expecting much.  I was really surprised.  The terrain was a lot of fun and a lot more challenging than you would expect.  I went a few times that winter.  I had always been a big groomer guy but I really started to get into ungroomed/natural trails at Whaleback that winter. They will be missed but I am glad I stopped in a few years back, it really changed my perspective on skiing and for that I owe Whaleback a thank you.


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## Smellytele (Mar 15, 2013)

I made it there for the first time this year with the family. It has great terrain as others have said. It was not a beginners area though which, while good for my family, was probably not good for the ski area in the location that it is. Even the top of the lift would be way to steep for beginners. I had a great time but feel a little guilty that I used free passes from MSC to ski there. It seemed they only had snow making on 1 or 2 trails and although I didn't ski at night the lighting looked inadequate. Sad to see it go.


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## xwhaler (Apr 23, 2013)

Bump....there appears to be a grass roots campaign on Facebook called "Save the Whale" where they are taking donations. Goal is $100k by June which I'm guessing would pay off the outstanding tax bill.
They appear to just now be approaching $1k so very much a daunting climb ahead. If they appear that they are getting somewhat close I will prob make a donation. I 'liked' their FB page so can at least monitor how things are going.

My heart is hoping for the best but brain tells me we may have seen our last lift served turns at Whaleback for a while.


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## SkiRaceParent (Jul 8, 2013)

Bump: http://thcauction.com/07112013Whaleback.html


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## ScottySkis (Jul 8, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Bump: http://thcauction.com/07112013Whaleback.html



All a zoners should put money in and buy the place.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 8, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Bump: http://thcauction.com/07112013Whaleback.html



That's too bad.


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## gostan (Jul 8, 2013)

Scotty said:


> All a zoners should put money in and buy the place.


I would prefer to spend my $$ skiing.  You have to be crazy town a ski mountain!


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## Newpylong (Jul 8, 2013)

sucks


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## bobbutts (Jul 8, 2013)

Bank Postpones Auction Of Shuttered Whaleback Mountain
Some interesting info in this article, such as:
"Stepping forward publicly this week as a prospective buyer was Upper Valley Snow Sports Foundation. The organization is in the process of applying for nonprofit status, said chairman John Schiffman, of Hanover. The foundation’s advisory panel includes Hanover Town Manager Julia Griffin and former Olympic skiers Jeff Hastings, Tim Caldwell and Tiger Shaw."


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## xwhaler (Jul 9, 2013)

I realize this is putting the cart before the horse a bit but interesting that the non-profit group is already talking about their plans for Whaleback.
Certainly I think increased snowmaking to really ensure they are open for XMas week is critical. But widening trails? Part of the charm of Whaleback are the narrow New England style fall line trails which for a mtn its size have some real character and difficulty. I think their main blue routes are wide enough so perhaps they are talking about some of the narrow greens off the East and Back side of the mtn that prob could be widended a bit.

Would not want them to touch Jawbone or Blowhole though.

Wonder why the need for a 2nd chair and where would it go that would really provide enough value to outweigh the cost? I guess if they are going to run as a non-profit I'd rather them keep big expenses as low as possible.
Regardless, should be interesting to see where this goes.

"He added that his group would plan to add a *second chair lift*, address water and sewer issues, *widen trails* and *double the snowmaking capacity* in the first few years of operation."


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## from_the_NEK (Jul 9, 2013)

Maybe a lift up Jonah's Revenge on the West side of the mountain to avoid the traverse back to the front of the mountain?

Or a terrain park specific lift on Scrimshaw?


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## xwhaler (Jul 9, 2013)

I think a terrain park specific lift could make some sense especially if the new owners continue to try and make rails/boxes/jumps a big part of their draw for the local kids.
Perhaps a T-Bar up Spout could serve the dual purpose of lapping the race course during league nights and give the jibbers a quick way back to the park.

Any lift they did on the west side I'd think would need to give folks access to Jawbone to lap that if they wanted. Not sure Jonah's alone could justify the cost of any lift surface or aerial.


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## Newpylong (Jul 9, 2013)

I can foresee them only putting a lift on the Spout side of the mountain, and widening some of the narrower easier runs off the summit. I think Blowhole and Jawbone would be safe.

Great to see real interest in the mountain.


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## Smellytele (Jul 9, 2013)

Spout side lift yes. They need an easier lift. The lift they have now is too hard to get off for a beginner.


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## bobbutts (Jul 9, 2013)

I always found the action sports/park marketing to be a bit awkward given the clientele I saw there.  Much more budget oriented families and little kids learning to ski.  Pretty much nobody in the park or "dock" when I visited.

If I were to make one easy improvement it would be fix the damn unload on the chairlift.  I wouldn't bring learning snowboarders there because it's way too steep and icy with a perma-rut at the bottom of it.  My other big complaint was insufficient lighting.

Side note, unloads like that make me miss my clicker bindings, clicking in on the lift was almost worth the lack of performance.  With one foot in on regular bindings I can make it off ok, but I still hate it.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2013)

Good news.  Cautiously optimistic.  

Agree on the odd marketing/clientele.  I think they now realize that the park crowd generally doesn't have a lot of money to spend...


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## SkiRaceParent (Jul 10, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Good news.  Cautiously optimistic.
> 
> Agree on the odd marketing/clientele.  I think they now realize that the park crowd generally doesn't have a lot of money to spend...



Ditto. It would be way too much of a bummer driving down 89 if that place is shuttered. New England needs it, not because we need another mountain operating, but because of: 1) it's location, right in your face as most/all SNE'ers go up to NNE, it speaks somewhat to the vitality, or lack thereof, of the area. 2) there is some fairly significant poverty in the upper valley area, extending down to Springfield/Windsor, VT and even in Lebanon and Claremont areas. to extent this place stays open and is affordable, I beleive it is really important for the children of this area...especially if they can run special programs to get school kids in.


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## Newpylong (Jul 11, 2013)

I agree. Even the wealthier towns (for the area) of Hanover and Enfield use(d) it heavily... I know prior to reading about this new group there were efforts rooted in those two towns to raise money to try to buy it.  It will be a tremendous loss if it stays shuttered.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 11, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Ditto. It would be way too much of a bummer driving down 89 if that place is shuttered. New England needs it, not because we need another mountain operating, but because of: 1) it's location, right in your face as most/all SNE'ers go up to NNE, it speaks somewhat to the vitality, or lack thereof, of the area. 2) there is some fairly significant poverty in the upper valley area, extending down to Springfield/Windsor, VT and even in Lebanon and Claremont areas. to extent this place stays open and is affordable, I beleive it is really important for the children of this area...especially if they can run special programs to get school kids in.



Completely agree. Even more important since Ascutney closed.  Too bad they can't get some of the old Ascutney lifts for the place.

My point was along the lines that their target group--the groms and park rats--generally don't have lots of disposable income.


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## Nick (Aug 1, 2013)

Some more updates. Auction is this morning, started 30 min ago

http://bostinno.streetwise.co/2013/08/01/entire-new-hampshire-ski-resort-up-for-sale-2/



> Whaleback Mountain Ski Resort in Enfield, NH, is on the auction block, starting at 10 a.m. Thursday morning. (Yes, that's today; sorry for the short notice.) You missed the open house. But I can assure you, if you like skiing, the outdoors, commercial grade lawn equipment or (probably empty?) ATM machines, this is the property for you.If you fork over the winning bid, here's what you'll get: a 7,800-square-foot lodge, 1,780-square-foot rental shop, 5,400-square-foot maintenance shed, owners residence, 2,500-foot chair lift, and 30 trails of pristine New England powder.
> But because that couldn't possibly keep you happily entertained for the rest of your life, there's a bit more in store here than meets the eye. A sampling:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nick (Aug 1, 2013)

Here is the actual auction listing. My mistake, starts at 11AM

http://www.thcauction.com/07112013Whaleback.html

Inventory list on that page also


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## dlague (Aug 1, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Completely agree. Even more important since Ascutney closed.  Too bad they can't get some of the old Ascutney lifts for the place.
> 
> My point was along the lines that their target group--the groms and park rats--generally don't have lots of disposable income.



Peak Resorts announces the acquisition of the high speed detachable quad chairlift formerly of Ascutney Mountain, VT.  That was last summer which is now at Crotched Mountain.  I have been on it and that thing books right along and lapping that chair is super fun!


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## bobbutts (Aug 1, 2013)

wonder what happened?


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## AdironRider (Aug 1, 2013)

Well that's an easy question to answer. Management that has no idea what they were doing. The whole idea was flawed, as others have mentioned, a bunch of 14 year old park rats as your bread and butter goes nowhere when you bread and butter doesn't have jobs to pay for anything. How many 14 year olds have jobs?


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## ScottySkis (Aug 1, 2013)

Did someone buy the place today?


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## Smellytele (Aug 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Well that's an easy question to answer. Management that has no idea what they were doing. The whole idea was flawed, as others have mentioned, a bunch of 14 year old park rats as your bread and butter goes nowhere when you bread and butter doesn't have jobs to pay for anything. How many 14 year olds have jobs?



Not that it worked but they were thinking 14 year kids from Hanover have parents who have money...


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## AdironRider (Aug 1, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Not that it worked but they were thinking 14 year kids from Hanover have parents who have money...



Hanover isn't wall street. The "plan" falls apart when the kids who have money go to other resorts that have money as well. Noone wants to use half assed terrain park features, and no rich Mom or Dad is going to bring their kid to a place like Whaleback.


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## Smellytele (Aug 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Hanover isn't wall street. The "plan" falls apart when the kids who have money go to other resorts that have money as well. Noone wants to use half assed terrain park features, and no rich Mom or Dad is going to bring their kid to a place like Whaleback.



No it isn't wall street nor is Claremont. They were looking for the weekday after school/evening kids. No night skiing in that area at all. Closest is Pats Peak.


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## marcski (Aug 1, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> No it isn't wall street nor is Claremont. They were looking for the weekday after school/evening kids. No night skiing in that area at all. Closest is Pats Peak.



I've never skied it, but from passing by on 89, it looked like it has a pretty good pitch.


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## Riverskier (Aug 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Well that's an easy question to answer. Management that has no idea what they were doing. The whole idea was flawed, as others have mentioned, a bunch of 14 year old park rats as your bread and butter goes nowhere when you bread and butter doesn't have jobs to pay for anything. How many 14 year olds have jobs?



This may or may not be an acurate assessment, I have no idea. However, I think bobbutts question referred to "what happened" in the auction that was supposed to take place today.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2013)

Riverskier said:


> However, I think bobbutts question referred to "what happened" in the auction that was supposed to take place today.



+1

Story should be in the paper within the next few days I would think.  Looking forward to reading about.  Hoping the eventual result is future skiing operations at Whaleback and they don't stay on NELSAP for long.


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## xwhaler (Aug 2, 2013)

Looks like the bank now owns it----at least it wasn't sold to someone clearly intending to do something other than operate as a ski hill. Hopefully Upper Valley Snow Sports (non profit group) can work out a deal with the bank to acquire it.

http://www.vnews.com/news/7897029-95/whaleback-on-the-block


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## Newpylong (Aug 2, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Hanover isn't wall street. The "plan" falls apart when the kids who have money go to other resorts that have money as well. Noone wants to use half assed terrain park features, and no rich Mom or Dad is going to bring their kid to a place like Whaleback.



Well, by definition my wife and I are rich, and we went there, and brought kids to learn to ski. Guess that blows your argument up.

Whaleback and other mountains are feeders. They offer lower cost options for families that want to teach their kids how to ski and socialize to a degree that is more difficult at larger mountains. When the kid's get big enough and bored, they move on to other mountains like Ragged if they can afford it.

The market is absolutely there for the mountain to survive, it just needs minimal improvements and a better operating plan.


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## dlague (Aug 2, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Well, by definition my wife and I are rich, and we went there, and brought kids to learn to ski. Guess that blows your argument up.
> 
> Whaleback and other mountains are feeders. They offer lower cost options for families that want to teach their kids how to ski and socialize to a degree that is more difficult at larger mountains. When the kid's get big enough and bored, they move on to other mountains like Ragged if they can afford it.
> 
> The market is absolutely there for the mountain to survive, it just needs minimal improvements and a better operating plan.



We skied it and tried it out a couple of times.  We are not locals but pass by on the way to Vermont.  The lodge is definitely in need of improvement and the chair well that needs improvement too!  Better marketing locally, getting sponsors and creative programs might help.  We often found comps for Whaleback and that does nothing for revenue.


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## AdironRider (Aug 2, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Well, by definition my wife and I are rich, and we went there, and brought kids to learn to ski. Guess that blows your argument up.
> 
> Whaleback and other mountains are feeders. They offer lower cost options for families that want to teach their kids how to ski and socialize to a degree that is more difficult at larger mountains. When the kid's get big enough and bored, they move on to other mountains like Ragged if they can afford it.
> 
> The market is absolutely there for the mountain to survive, it just needs minimal improvements and a better operating plan.



Right, because an exception makes a rule. Obviously, the market IS NOT THERE, considering in the history of Whaleback, no one has been successful. Were talking like 3-4 ownership groups and decades of trying.


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## SkiRaceParent (Aug 2, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Well, by definition my wife and I are rich, and we went there, and brought kids to learn to ski. Guess that blows your argument up.



Not to pick a fight, but this is one of the greatest a-hole comments I've heard in a while. What IS the definition of Rich?


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## Newpylong (Aug 2, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Right, because an exception makes a rule. Obviously, the market IS NOT THERE, considering in the history of Whaleback, no one has been successful. Were talking like 3-4 ownership groups and decades of trying.




No. It was owned by two groups since the mountain's inception, the first for nearly 40 years, the last group you know about. 

Like I said, the market is there but was managed poorly. They never achieved the outside funding levels that they were looking for and got buried in debt by spending a million off the bat and two piss poor winters.


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## Newpylong (Aug 2, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> Not to pick a fight, but this is one of the greatest a-hole comments I've heard in a while. What IS the definition of Rich?



I think you read it wrong if it came off as that.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 3, 2013)

SkiRaceParent said:


> What IS the definition of Rich?


I don't know, you'll have to ask our president.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 3, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't know, you'll have to ask our president.



All politicians are rich in our country.


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## SkiRaceParent (Aug 4, 2013)

Yep, you're probably right, nevermind.


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## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2013)

Steamboat1 got my humor, sorry if it was poor.


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## Mapnut (Aug 5, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Steamboat1 got my humor, sorry if it was poor.




The President took his kids skiing at Whaleback?


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## Smellytele (Aug 5, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Steamboat1 got my humor, sorry if it was poor.



No it was rich


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## Newpylong (Aug 5, 2013)

lol. Can tell it's summer.


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## Edd (Aug 5, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Steamboat1 got my humor, sorry if it was poor.



Are you sure? Sounded more like a political remark.


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## dlague (Aug 5, 2013)

Edd said:


> Are you sure? Sounded more like a political remark.



Political humor


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah, I took it as sarcasm as well.  

But there is a sad reality with the comment in that the well-to-do Dartmouth Students and folks in Hanover do not ski at Whaleback because it is not their thing.  Hell, a lot of Dartmouth kids don't even ski at the Skiway and go elsewhere.  The harsh reality is that there are different ski areas for different demographic groups and the common man's area, which we all love and need more of, really struggle.


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## dlague (Aug 5, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah, I took it as sarcasm as well.
> 
> But there is a sad reality with the comment in that the well-to-do Dartmouth Students and folks in Hanover do not ski at Whaleback because it is not their thing.  Hell, a lot of Dartmouth kids don't even ski at the Skiway and go elsewhere.  The harsh reality is that there are different ski areas for different demographic groups and the common man's area, which we all love and need more of, really struggle.



I agree!  In fact, we often migrate to some of those mountains since they are less crowded.  Don't get me wrong we so like hitting up some of the big boys too.


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## Smellytele (Aug 5, 2013)

dlague said:


> I agree!  In fact, we often migrate to some of those mountains since they are less crowded.  Don't get me wrong we so like hitting up some of the big boys too.



Variety is the spice of life.


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## buellski (Aug 5, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> But there is a sad reality with the comment in that the well-to-do Dartmouth Students and folks in Hanover do not ski at Whaleback because it is not their thing.



I don't know how true this is, but I can't really refute it with hard facts.  However, I do know that Ford Sayre Ski Club in Hanover used Whaleback pretty extensively for race training. I also know that Dartmouth and Hanover always had a pretty big contingent in the Thursday Night Race League.  I don't know for a fact, but I would bet there were kids on the Core team that were from Hanover.  I don't really think having more people from Hanover make use of the area would have made much of a difference.  

The bottom line is we had a great community resource that many of the towns (Grantham, Enfield, Lebanon, Plainfield, Hartford/WRJ), besides Hanover, made use of for after school programs, winter camps, and race leagues. Both of my kids did after school programs and winter camps there.  My son did BMX and skateboard camps with them in the summer.  I did the TNRL in the past and got to watch a bunch of kids from our town learn how to ski and ride. I just hope we can get it back.


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## Newpylong (Aug 5, 2013)

My wife's side is from Enfield and this past weekend we were talking about ways to remain viable. My sister in law was adamant that they needed stronger year round activities. I am wondering what type of crowd they would get if they replaced the chairs or welded hooks on them for mountain bikes? How about disc golf? 

She also said the bar should be a year round restaurant.

Is she on to something with any of these?

I only looked at it from an operational perspective, and every time I drove by and the times I went the last few seasons, only a fraction of the snowmaking was used. I suspect this was due to budgetary reasons more than technical.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> My wife's side is from Enfield and this past weekend we were talking about ways to remain viable. My sister in law was adamant that they needed stronger year round activities. I am wondering what type of crowd they would get if they replaced the chairs or welded hooks on them for mountain bikes? How about disc golf?
> 
> She also said the bar should be a year round restaurant.
> 
> ...



Well, they were going to do paintball and open up a skate park.  They began to do the work themselves but the financing fell through and they had a half-built area to looker's left of the lodge as you drove by on 89.  

I thought that the bar was open year round?  It was their big revenue source to be honest.  

And mountain biking is a good idea.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I thought that the bar was open year round?  It was their big revenue source to be honest.



Define "big"

The highest grossing restaurant in Stowe does about $2.5M in sales a year.  I'd be surprised if a bar at Whaleback does 10% of that total.  So, say they run it perfect and get a 25% net profit out of there.  That's 25 grand a year; not exactly a big revenue to stream to apply towards the other high operation costs of a ski area.

With Whaleback's location, I think they'd be nuts to run a year round full service restaurant.


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## Savemeasammy (Aug 6, 2013)

I grew up skiing at Whaleback, and, although I don't ski there often anymore, it would sadden me to see it close down once again.  I have friends who use it as their home mountain, and I'm sure their children will be heartbroken if it doesn't reopen.  IMO, Whaleback has been missing the mark as far as their target audience is concerned.  With it's meager vertical drop and small size, their real focus should be on families.  Pats Peak - the mountain closest to me, and the one I use (with my family!) - targets this segment, and they kill it.  They have a nice variety of wide, easy trails for beginners, along with some more interesting terrain for more advanced skiers.  They also make a ton of snow.  These are two areas where Whaleback falls short.  Their beginner terrain is pretty narrow - which is not ideal when you pack a bunch of snow-plowing children on it!  I think they need to widen the existing beginner terrain, and perhaps beef up the snowmaking.  The mountain already offers reasonable terrain for intermediates and advanced skiers, which could also benefit from better snowmaking.  Also, as others have mentioned, the ramp at the top of the chair is too steep for beginners.


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## xwhaler (Aug 6, 2013)

IMHO here are the top 3 things Whaleback needs to do from an advertising perspective to possibly succeed going forward:
1) Get more of the front face of the mtn covered ASAP. Their location right off 89 is pretty unique, I've always enjoyed rounding that bend in the highway and seeing the hill. I'm sure its intriguing for a lot of folks driving by as they wonder what the terrain is like. However when there is 1 route covered and the rest of the mtn is brown (before say the New Year) it makes folks think they don;t have their act together. I think an emphasis on snowmaking the Face and Spout and 1 green trail right away would be key. Give folks a reason to give it a try.

2) Emphasis on family programs---the park thing was an okay idea but there is no halfpipe and no dedicated lift for their park so it's going to be under utilized. Make it super family friendly/affordable and I think you can get some traction. One key here would be to try some afternoon/night activities on the wknds. I was always surprised they didn't offer night skiing on the wknd nights. Light the trails at night so Mom/Dad can make some turns alternating between watching the kids---maybe some a family dinner/kids activities/drink specials/ski ticket combo every Sat night. Try and make Whaleback a weekly destination/safe/fun/affordable night out with the family.

3) Lots of folks have commented that their beginner terrain needs to be widened and I don;t necessarily disagree. I do think the ramp at the top can be intimidating so if they blasted snow up there to make it more gradual that would probably help. What I think they should do though is advertise a bit more of their advanced/expert terrain. The terrain is pretty good (Jawbone, YOOYM, Face, Blowhole) so if you could somehow make that more well known perhaps you get more of the dads who want to take their kids there knowing they will have fun as well. Or the solo skier powder hound looking for an off the radar place for fresh lines. I'm not sure how this could really be accomplished but I do think Whaleback has better terrain than what meets the eye from I-89 or what the general perception of a community hill.


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## dlague (Aug 6, 2013)

The nice to have for pats peak is it can draw from a large base from concord, Manchester, Bedford and a bunch of other towns.  McIntyre does pretty well too!  Whaleback should get creative with programs, beef up the lodge, and yes better snowmaking!  They should also partner with larger resorts  with season pass programs like pats did with jay peak.


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## xwhaler (Aug 6, 2013)

dlague said:


> They should also partner with larger resorts  with season pass programs like pats did with jay peak.



I know it's tricky sometimes to appropriately share the revenue but I wonder if Whaleback could offer a joint pass with a place like Ragged or even Dartmouth Skiway? Ppl in the Upper Valley may not want to lock a family in to Whaleback all season but having a mtn kids can learn at or use during the week or parents can ski after work/race league and then a bigger option close by for wknd trips could make sense. As I recall Ragged and the Skiway offered a joint pass last yr but I don;t see them doing it this year.


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## Newpylong (Aug 6, 2013)

Yes, but the idea was for a restaurant year round, not bar.

I agree with others though, I think there are better ways for revenue. I don't see it.




thetrailboss said:


> Well, they were going to do paintball and open up a skate park.  They began to do the work themselves but the financing fell through and they had a half-built area to looker's left of the lodge as you drove by on 89.
> 
> I thought that the bar was open year round?  It was their big revenue source to be honest.
> 
> And mountain biking is a good idea.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2013)

Restaurant: yeah, but I think it is a bit out of the way unfortunately.  Great road exposure, but folks driving southbound see it after the exit and its on the outskirts of town.  But it's also the first thing you come to when coming from the south and heading north.  

Joint pass:  they were doing reciprocal deals with Burke, Jay, and Ascutney at one point.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Restaurant: yeah, but I think it is a bit out of the way unfortunately.  Great road exposure, but folks driving southbound see it after the exit and its on the outskirts of town.  But it's also the first thing you come to when coming from the south and heading north.
> 
> Joint pass:  they were doing reciprocal deals with Burke, Jay, and Ascutney at one point.



Joint pass is the best kind or pass lol.


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## bobbutts (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm not sure what to suggest for off season activities there.  I think NE is kind of getting overloaded with zip lines and alpine coasters.
For winter, Xwhaler's 3 points about winter operations and marketing make sense to me.


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## 4aprice (Aug 6, 2013)

Savemeasammy said:


> I grew up skiing at Whaleback, and, although I don't ski there often anymore, it would sadden me to see it close down once again.  I have friends who use it as their home mountain, and I'm sure their children will be heartbroken if it doesn't reopen.  IMO, Whaleback has been missing the mark as far as their target audience is concerned.  With it's meager vertical drop and small size, their real focus should be on families.  Pats Peak - the mountain closest to me, and the one I use (with my family!) - targets this segment, and they kill it.  They have a nice variety of wide, easy trails for beginners, along with some more interesting terrain for more advanced skiers.  They also make a ton of snow.  These are two areas where Whaleback falls short.  Their beginner terrain is pretty narrow - which is not ideal when you pack a bunch of snow-plowing children on it!  I think they need to widen the existing beginner terrain, and perhaps beef up the snowmaking.  The mountain already offers reasonable terrain for intermediates and advanced skiers, which could also benefit from better snowmaking.  Also, as others have mentioned, the ramp at the top of the chair is too steep for beginners.



Interesting post SMAS.  Whaleback was my home mountain between 1975-1979 when I attended KUA.  Had a blast at the place particularly on The Face and Blowhole when they were bumped up.  Skied Jawbone on the 1st day they ever opened it in hip deep powder, a run that is etched in my mind forever.  Lots of good memories.  Agree that the family route would be the way to go.   As for solutions to their problems my thoughts are that along with increased snowmaking, a good beginner lift (more then the current carpet they have if that even runs) is in order.  I would also suggest they light the whole mountain and become the king of night skiing in the Upper Valley Area.  Dartmouth, Ragged and Sunapee don't have it (not sure about Storr's Hill) and I have to believe there is enough skiing/boarding population to support it.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## xwhaler (Aug 6, 2013)

FWIW Storrs lists the below as their hours....


Friday 6-9 pm w/ DJ
Sat 12-4, Sunday 12-4​


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## xwhaler (Aug 6, 2013)

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/maps/viewmap.php?id=1047

In yellow is what has the capability of being lit for night ops. This map is from 00-01 but I can't imagine they added lights since then. Never skied it at night so can't verify if the lights still operate on all these runs and/or if they rope some off when it gets dark. 
Their site as of last yr listed night skiing on 80% of their terrain so the above map probably verifies.


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## dlague (Aug 6, 2013)

xwhaler said:


> http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/maps/viewmap.php?id=1047
> 
> In yellow is what has the capability of being lit for night ops. This map is from 00-01 but I can't imagine they added lights since then. Never skied it at night so can't verify if the lights still operate on all these runs and/or if they rope some off when it gets dark.
> Their site as of last yr listed night skiing on 80% of their terrain so the above map probably verifies.



Some hours were posted above, but they were open more than that.  They used to run a 2 hour night skiing deal for $15 during the week.

And night skiing there seemed like only a couple trails were not lit.  Then again it does not take much to make up 20% there.


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## xwhaler (Aug 6, 2013)

The hrs I posted above were for Storrs, not Whaleback!


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## dlague (Aug 6, 2013)

xwhaler said:


> The hrs I posted above were for Storrs, not Whaleback!



My bad thought this was related to Whaleback!  Got it!


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## bobbutts (Aug 6, 2013)

I think I said it before, but I'll say it again about night skiing there.  The lighting is bad and weak compared to other places.  Something else for the improvement list.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> I think I said it before, but I'll say it again about night skiing there. The lighting is bad and weak compared to other places. Something else for the improvement list.



Probably budget lighting.  Places like Pats have no doubt added more lights in the last few years and really made it brighter and safer.


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## Newpylong (Aug 8, 2013)

Back in the day it wasn't surprising to have whole stretch of trails at Brodie with broken lights, lol.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2013)

Newpylong said:


> Back in the day it wasn't surprising to have whole stretch of trails at Brodie with broken lights, lol.



Just adds ambience to the experience, eh?    And the lack of lighting makes skiing more challenging.


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## dlague (Aug 8, 2013)

True night skiing experience!  I skied there at night and did not even think about it actually!


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## Savemeasammy (Sep 29, 2013)

Whaleback announced today on FB (save the whale) that they will be operating this season.   They didn't release any details...  This is great news for the upper valley, especially for all the kids that use the whale as their home mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2013)

Savemeasammy said:


> Whaleback announced today on FB (save the whale) that they will be operating this season.   They didn't release any details...  This is great news for the upper valley, especially for all the kids that use the whale as their home mountain.



GREAT news!  Who is running it?  New folks or the previous team?


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## xwhaler (Sep 29, 2013)

Incredible news.        Can't wait for many good days there this winter

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using AlpineZone mobile app


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## xwhaler (Sep 29, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> GREAT news!  Who is running it?  New folks or the previous team?



I'm thinking Upper Valley Snow Sports foundation.   Makes sense for the bank.    Rather than the mtn/asset sit there growing in, makes sense to have someone operate/preserve it

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Sep 30, 2013)

yup, Upper Valley Snow Sports Foundation.


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## dlague (Sep 30, 2013)

Well that is two saves - Black Mountain of Maine and Whaleback both coming back after announcements of discontinuing operations.


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## Mapnut (Sep 30, 2013)

And last year a volunteer group successfully operated the lower chair at Big Squaw, ME, and plan to do so again. No such luck at Big Tupper, NY. Both of those operations depended entirely on natural snow.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2013)

dlague said:


> Well that is two saves - Black Mountain of Maine and Whaleback both coming back after announcements of discontinuing operations.




Yeah, as said, you have to add Big Squaw.  Big Tupper is going to reopen this year with volunteers according to WCAX.


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## Rogman (Sep 30, 2013)

I was by it a few weeks ago and saw the trails had been mowed. Nice!


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## ScottySkis (Sep 30, 2013)

I love the little places so glad there coming back.


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## 4aprice (Sep 30, 2013)

Scotty said:


> I love the little places so glad there coming back.



5 saves with West Mt, NY.   God I hope we have a snowy winter.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## jack97 (Sep 30, 2013)

from their FB site... hmmm surface lift, sounds interesting. btw, still looking for donations.



Letter to the Editor - Valley News

RE: Whaleback Ski Area

The Upper Valley SnowSports Foundation (“UVSSF”) has developed a comprehensive strategy designed to preserve Whaleback Ski Area (“WB”) as a community resource. Your article on Saturday 7-6-13 accurately described our mission, with one small error. If UVSSF acquires Whaleback, our plans include one new surface lift, not a chairlift, as this improves daily ski access to the mountain and key trails.

While we believe we have an operational model for Whaleback that is sustainable, UVSSF cannot compete in a bidding war to buy the mountain. If we can reach an agreement to buy Whaleback, we believe we can raise sufficient philanthropic capital to improve snowmaking capability, restructure certain trails and improve the existing lift system. We also believe we can generate sufficient capital reserves to insulate future operations from the vagaries of New England’s winters.

While we could not accomplish many of the changes we see as necessary immediately, we would be ready to operate Whaleback during the 2013-2014 ski season. 

UVSSF is in the quiet phase of a capital fund raising campaign and already has some strong supporters, but more funding would be required to make this happen. If you would like to find out how you could contribute, please write to UVSSF, PO BOX 606, Lebanon, NH 03766, or email us at info@uvssf.org

We have no doubts that the best use for Whaleback is to remain as a ski area. Together we can make sure Whaleback continues to serve the Upper Valley Community by providing affordable skiing for current and future generations.

Sincerely

John Schiffman, Chair

Upper Valley SnowSports Foundation


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah that chair is pretty old....and needs some work.  That is probably beyond the resources of a volunteer organization to manage, although the folks at Squaw could probably provide some insight.  

And I'm pretty sure that back in the day there was a Poma Lift there that went to top but man, a new surface lift would be pretty steep.


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## 4aprice (Sep 30, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> And I'm pretty sure that back in the day there was a Poma Lift there that went to top but man, a new surface lift would be pretty steep.



Ok TB we are showing our age.  I think you are right that it was a poma area in the old days and it went under the name Snowcrest.  I know there was a surface lift that went up the slope just to the left of the lodge.  It was there but not in operation when I skied there back in the 70's.  If that was the bottom of a 2 step lift to the top, the 2nd step would have gone up the east flank of the hill, not as steep as the main face the chair climbs now.  Very pleased to see them survive and along with West hope to give them my business in the near future.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## 4aprice (Sep 30, 2013)

My bad, just looked up the history and a T-bar did go up the Face.  Would have been a heck of a ride.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2013)

4aprice said:


> Ok TB we are showing our age.  I think you are right that it was a poma area in the old days and it went under the name Snowcrest.  I know there was a surface lift that went up the slope just to the left of the lodge.  It was there but not in operation when I skied there back in the 70's.  If that was the bottom of a 2 step lift to the top, the 2nd step would have gone up the east flank of the hill, not as steep as the main face the chair climbs now.  Very pleased to see them survive and along with West hope to give them my business in the near future.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



Nah I'm just a ski history junkie.  I forgot that they were Snowcrest for a while.....


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## Smellytele (Sep 30, 2013)

I was thinking they could put a surface lift on the left side up spout but that do much but give you access to the slope style area. They say the surface lift would give access to key trails which that really wouldn't. Hmmm


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## canobie#1 (Sep 30, 2013)

So will the chair be operating this season?  And are they planning on replacing it with a surface lift again?  That wouldn't be a good idea.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> So will the chair be operating this season?  And are they planning on replacing it with a surface lift again?  That wouldn't be a good idea.



I would assume so.


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## jack97 (Oct 1, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> So will the chair be operating this season?  And are they planning on replacing it with a surface lift again?  That wouldn't be a good idea.



IIRC, that chair lift has been causing the place grief when they reopen 7-8 years agos, every once in a while that lift would break down. During those eight years, once the chair goes, then it becomes, earn your turns. IMO, it would be smart to go put a surface lift first and eventually overhaul the chair lift if the funds are available. Then keep the two operation in case either goes bad. 

btw, they prolly need to make sure the groomer is in good shape as well. They only had one when I was there and it was out of commission due to a needed part. I didn't mind of course but it made racing kind of a drag.


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## xwhaler (Oct 1, 2013)

I could see value in putting a surface lift up the left side to access both the race trail and terrain park. It could also be a graduated step up from the carpet for beginners before going to the top.


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## Bostonian (Oct 1, 2013)

Well I promised myself if they operated this year, I would visit them... In fact I think we should have a AZ mini-day trip to the whale to support them!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2013)

Bostonian said:


> Well I promised myself if they operated this year, I would visit them... In fact I think we should have a AZ mini-day trip to the whale to support them!



+1.


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## Smellytele (Oct 1, 2013)

Bostonian said:


> Well I promised myself if they operated this year, I would visit them... In fact I think we should have a AZ mini-day trip to the whale to support them!



count me in


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## buellski (Oct 3, 2013)

New website is up: http://www.whaleback.com


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## dlague (Oct 3, 2013)

buellski said:


> New website is up: http://www.whaleback.com



That is awesome!


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## xwhaler (Oct 3, 2013)

Nice! They are keeping the $15 Sunday AM deal which is a really nice way to get a bunch of vertical in quickly...just keep lapping the chair from 9-noon and you get a good amount of quality/diverse/challenging vert.

Certainly a place I reccomend ppl check out/support. Not sure I'd spend an entire day there but its real family friendly, great value, accessible, and a surprising mix of terrain for all levels.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2013)

Where would the proposed surface lift go in?  Going straight up from the base area would be a bit steep for many people for a surface lift no?


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## buellski (Oct 4, 2013)

deadheadskier said:


> Where would the proposed surface lift go in?  Going straight up from the base area would be a bit steep for many people for a surface lift no?



This is pure speculation, but I would think they would put it on Spout and run it up far enough that you could access the terrain park on Scrimshaw.  That way racers doing training on Spout and freestylers accessing the terrain park and jib port could get to where they want to go without using the chairlift.


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## 4aprice (Oct 4, 2013)

buellski said:


> This is pure speculation, but I would think they would put it on Spout and run it up far enough that you could access the terrain park on Scrimshaw.  That way racers doing training on Spout and freestylers accessing the terrain park and jib port could get to where they want to go without using the chairlift.



That's where they had a T-bar in the past.  It was not in operation when I was skiing there in the late 70's but the lift towers were still there.  It would not be a bad idea, however, Scrimshaw IIRC is pretty steep for it to have a novice rating.  For the true beginner I think they had the right idea of moving it over to the right of the chair and up the small valley where Jawbone comes out.  Easier pitch over there.  Man I wish nothing but the best for this place and I hope I can get there to support it in the future.  Such good memories, little did I know as a teen in boarding school how much I would come to appreciate it later in life.  Go Whale Go.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## xwhaler (Oct 4, 2013)

buellski said:


> This is pure speculation, but I would think they would put it on Spout and run it up far enough that you could access the terrain park on Scrimshaw.  That way racers doing training on Spout and freestylers accessing the terrain park and jib port could get to where they want to go without using the chairlift.



I agree that is the most logical place as it helps to give the kids/racers a dedicated lift. What it doesn't do is help step up beginners off the magic carpet before accessing the top. Spout is probably too steep for beginners to move directly from the carpet and while Scrimshaw/terrain park is more mellow and actually a great trail to step up to it will be the park so you can't send them there. 

The only other place I could see a surface lift working would be just up from the carpet to access Blubber/Lower Ivory Run. There was a poma running up there back in the early 80's. Those runs are a perfect step up from the carpet and there's actually a short glade run in there that others may use.

The steep ramp off the double is often icy and not the best setup for those learning. Perhaps it would be better to re-do the ramp/top terimnal of the lift rather than put $ into installing another lift.


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## buellski (Oct 4, 2013)

xwhaler said:


> Spout is probably too steep for beginners to move directly from the carpet and while Scrimshaw/terrain park is more mellow and actually a great trail to step up to it will be the park so you can't send them there.



The way they have it laid out, there are three parts to the Scrimshaw trail.  The top part has a few low boxes and rails that have plenty of room to skiers left to avoid.  Below that, the trail basically splits into two.  Skiers right has kickers and skiers left is pure beginner groomed goodness. Separating the two is the remnants of the old, feeble half pipe. That keeps the huckers from jumping into the beginners. Anyway, before they got Ivory Run opened last season, that's how the instructors would bring the advanced beginner groups in my son's afterschool program down the hill.



xwhaler said:


> The only other place I could see a surface lift working would be just up from the carpet to access Blubber/Lower Ivory Run. There was a poma running up there back in the early 80's. Those runs are a perfect step up from the carpet and there's actually a short glade run in there that others may use.



That would be a good spot as well.  I think the only problem there is they would need to significantly expand snowmaking on that side of the hill to make it work.



xwhaler said:


> The steep ramp off the double is often icy and not the best setup for those learning. Perhaps it would be better to re-do the ramp/top terimnal of the lift rather than put $ into installing another lift.



I agree the ramp off of the double is a real challenge, but I've seen plenty of newbies rise up to it. I see a lot of kids actually look forward to it because they get to get a little air as they go over the berm at the bottom on their way to Ivory Run  The biggest problem with reworking the top of the double is that it needs to be fairly high above the ground at the top so skiers going underneath don't get their heads taken off by dangling skis.  Similarly, the ramp at the top has to drop the skiers down quickly enough that they don't get smacked in the back of the head by a chair.  I'm not sure what they could do up there that wouldn't be a very expensive and major overhaul of the top of the lift.
Bottom line, I just love the fact that we are discussing this! :beer:


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## Nick (Oct 7, 2013)

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2013/10/07/whaleback-gets-new-lease-on-life/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+firsttracksonline%2FpDno+%28First+Tracks%21%21+Online+Ski+Magazine%29&utm_content=FaceBook


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## 4aprice (Oct 7, 2013)

Nick said:


> http://www.firsttracksonline.com/20...s!!+Online+Ski+Magazine)&utm_content=FaceBook



85,000 seasons passes?:-o  Did I read something wrong?  Love the Whale but can't see that happening.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## buellski (Oct 7, 2013)

4aprice said:


> 85,000 seasons passes?:-o  Did I read something wrong?  Love the Whale but can't see that happening.



$85,000 worth of season passes.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/...reopen-whaleback-mountain-ski-area-in-enfield


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## 4aprice (Oct 7, 2013)

buellski said:


> $85,000 worth of season passes.
> 
> http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/...reopen-whaleback-mountain-ski-area-in-enfield



Makes much more sense.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## First Tracks (Oct 7, 2013)

Good catch. <Doh!>


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## xwhaler (Oct 8, 2013)

Whaleback has a general manager in place with what looks like some solid expereince---more good news!


http://www.whaleback.com/team/


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## xwhaler (Oct 8, 2013)

Also of note here is a a rough outline of where they plan/hope the $$ will go to

*What is UVSSF raising money for?

*• 
To open for the 2013-2014 season $100,000 (by October 22)

• 
Purchase of Whaleback properties $650,000

• 
More than doubling snowmaking capacity $400,000

• 
Purchase and installation of surface lift $200,000

• 
Lodge and outbuilding improvements $100,000

• 
Other capital improvements & equipment $150,000

• 
Operating & capital reserve $400,000


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## xwhaler (Oct 23, 2013)

Great news! Whaleback met their goal of raising $100k through donations and season pass sales which will allow them to open this season.

October 23 Update: Well, thanks to all of you for such tremendous support! We have $110,000 in the bank and counting!


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## Nick (Oct 23, 2013)

That's fantastic news!


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

That's great news for the little guy! Glad to see small ski area's can hang in there


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

So no chairlift this season?


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## canobie#1 (Oct 23, 2013)

Theres no ski mountain if there is no chairlift.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 23, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> Theres no ski mountain if there is no chairlift.



They probably have a rope toe I would guess.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> Theres no ski mountain if there is no chairlift.



I read somewhere that the lift needs a lot of (expensive) work and that they were not going to run it and instead run the handle tow for the park and the other lower area.  I know that their long term plan is to replace the double with something...they're thinking a surface lift but man that is steep.  So I was asking for confirmation that they were going to run the double this year.


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## canobie#1 (Oct 23, 2013)

A surface lift wouldn't make sense.  That means they would cut the trails apart with a line up.  A chair lift is a much better choice.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

I think the bottom is too steep for any surface lift as well, they'd have to run a line with a softer slope


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

canobie#1 said:


> A surface lift wouldn't make sense.  That means they would cut the trails apart with a line up.  A chair lift is a much better choice.



I'm sure that they would love a new chairlift.  Are you going to donate them one?  That is a major expense and one that generally non-profits can't afford, but there is *an exception* or *two* that are able to find enough generous donors to make it happen.  I highly doubt that they have the resources to buy, install, and maintain a new chairlift.  

They haven't elaborated any further, but I would assume that their intent was to run any "new" surface lift up the same line as the double...which might cross some traverses, but nothing major if my memory is right.  The bigger concern is that


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> They haven't elaborated any further, but I would assume that their intent was to run any "new" surface lift up the same line as the double...which might cross some traverses, but nothing major if my memory is right.  The bigger concern is that








That's a pretty steep slope

Maybe experts could hold on, but as far as beginners and intermediates, I think the intimidation factor alone would be enough to sway them somewhere else. 

I'd love to see whaleback get funding like MRG did, but lets face it, it doesn't have the allure and mystique that MRG did. Granted the chair wouldn't be nearly as long, but I just don't see people being "commited to the cause" enough to fund a chair, and if I'm not mistaking, MRG also got a small grant for the single chair due to it's history


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> That's a pretty steep slope
> 
> Maybe experts could hold on, but as far as beginners and intermediates, I think the intimidation factor alone would be enough to sway them somewhere else.
> 
> I'd love to see whaleback get funding like MRG did, but lets face it, it doesn't have the allure and mystique that MRG did. Granted the chair wouldn't be nearly as long, but I just don't see people being "commited to the cause" enough to fund a chair, and if I'm not mistaking, MRG also got a small grant for the single chair due to it's history



The Upper Valley has A LOT of well-to-do folks.  Between Hanover and Woodstock you have a lot of wealth.  But a lot of those resources go to other things...and the neighboring Dartmouth Ski Way gets a lot of love from the donors.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

The owner of Silverton Mountain bought a used chairlift from Mammoth for "only" $20,000 and did much of the labor himself (digging and pouring concrete tower footings, hauling towers). Assuming the concrete footings are still good at Whaleback, I don't see why they can't buy a used chairlift. They might not even need to rent a cargo chopper to install footings depending on the weight of the tower, maybe an F-450 or higher could lug them up.

This of course is all speculation and best case scenario, my point being though that I think they have options for a relatively cheap chair installation.


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## jack97 (Oct 23, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> That's a pretty steep slope
> 
> Maybe experts could hold on, but as far as beginners and intermediates, I think the intimidation factor alone would be enough to sway them somewhere else.



That trail is (upper) Face, there are a couple of trails next to it that has roughly the same pitch and some with glades. The rest of the trails are more tamed, beginners and intermediates would not have a problem with it.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> The owner of Silverton Mountain bought a used chairlift from Mammoth for "only" $20,000 and did much of the labor himself (digging and pouring concrete tower footings, hauling towers). Assuming the concrete footings are still good at Whaleback, I don't see why they can't buy a used chairlift. They might not even need to rent a cargo chopper to install footings depending on the weight of the tower, maybe an F-450 or higher could lug them up.
> 
> This of course is all speculation and best case scenario, my point being though that I think they have options for a relatively cheap chair installation.



A good Hall double would be nice.  

I think that lift is pretty old...so I imagine that, like Middlebury, they would have to do completely new footings and bases because the concrete is probably too old.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

And I've got to get to Silverton...hear it is pretty cool.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

jack97 said:


> That trail is (upper) Face, there are a couple of trails next to it that has roughly the same pitch and some with glades. The rest of the trails are more tamed, beginners and intermediates would not have a problem with it.



Are you referring to skiers skiing down the easier trail?


I  was referring to the fact that if a surface lift ran up the same path as  the old lift, the slope might be too steep for beginners to hold on to the lift,  therefore they wouldn't be able to get to the top to access that  terrain. Even worse is if they slid off the surface lift onto the double-black. Magic carpet is out of the picture. The only plausible option I see would be a T-Bar since I think it would be really hard to hold a poma disc between your legs.

Looking at a topo map, if they wanted to build a surface lift flat enough that beginners wouldn't have trouble holding onto, they would have to cut down a few trees, intersect a couple trails, and it would still be on an intermediate slope.

Do you think an intermediate could handle the poma at K? If not, I think the surface lift idea has be to scrapped all together


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> And I've got to get to Silverton...hear it is pretty cool.



I have not either, it's on my bucket list though. It's almost 6 hours away, so I'd have to set a few days aside


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## jack97 (Oct 23, 2013)

skiNEwhere said:


> Are you referring to skiers skiing down the easier trail?
> 
> 
> I  was referring to the fact that if a surface lift ran up the same path as  the old lift, the slope might be too steep for beginners to hold on to the lift,  therefore they wouldn't be able to get to the top to access that  terrain. Even worse is if they slid off the surface lift onto the double-black. Magic carpet is out of the picture. The only plausible option I see would be a T-Bar since I think it would be really hard to hold a poma disc between your legs.
> ...



my bad.... I think they will place a surface lift on an intermediate trail, just not sure where tho. Skiers wanting to ski face to y.o.o.m will have to earn it.


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## skiNEwhere (Oct 23, 2013)

jack97 said:


> my bad.... I think they will place a surface lift on an intermediate trail, just not sure where tho. Skiers wanting to ski face to y.o.o.m will have to earn it.



No worries....If they want install a surface lift on less of a slope, while cutting down the least amount of trees, I think it would have to run through Leviathan and Blubber (Both blues)


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

It would be nice if they could find an area that wants to donate an old fixed grip chair for a tax write-off or something like that.  That would help on the expenses for sure.  The engineering and other work would probably still be expensive, even at a discount.  But it's possible, especially in that area where there are lots of talented (and well-off) folks.  

I'm really pulling for the folks at Big Squaw.  They grabbed the bull by the horns and showed that a non-profit in the middle of the sticks can operate a ski area with a chairlift.  They were able to get Boyne/Sunday River to send some guys over to help get the chair up and running for them.  Maybe Killington/Okemo/Sunapee could do the same here.


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## dlague (Oct 23, 2013)

Big Squaw - another save!


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## thetrailboss (Oct 23, 2013)

dlague said:


> Big Squaw - another save!



That is just unreal.  That is a real success story and demonstrates what a community can do when it pulls together.


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## manhattanskier (Oct 23, 2013)

Love where all this us going, making a point to go to whaleback this year, lots of other places that are community oriented.

Sent from my XT907 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## xwhaler (Oct 24, 2013)

Where are people coming up with the idea that they are going to replace the double with a surface lift to the top?
I've not seen any mention of getting rid of the old double----they have mentioned they would like to put in a surface lift but I've always assumed that it would be an additional lift that would help bridge the gap between the carpet and the top lift.

As I've mentioned before I think the most logical place for a T Bar would be up Spout which could service the terrain park/race slope.


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## buellski (Oct 24, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> So no chairlift this season?





thetrailboss said:


> I read somewhere that the lift needs a lot of (expensive) work and that they were not going to run it and instead run the handle tow for the park and the other lower area.  I know that their long term plan is to replace the double with something...they're thinking a surface lift but man that is steep.  So I was asking for confirmation that they were going to run the double this year.



AFAIK, the lift will run.  The purchase and installation of a surface lift is supposed to be in addition to the double.

"If the foundation acquires Whaleback, our plans include one new surface lift..."

http://www.vnews.com/sports/outdoors/recreation/7547628-95/letter-our-strategy-for-whaleback

A couple of items from the FAQ:

Q: What is the $100,000 being spent on?
A: There are a number of significant expenses right out of the gate; for example, the lease payment to the bank, property taxes, deposit for the power company, insurance, mountain pre-season-prep and maintenance, among other.


Q: What improvements are planned for the mountain?
We can’t promise major improvements for this winter because we don’t take the reins until the end of October; however, improving the on snow experience is a top priority. We can make a few modest investments in snowmaking that will have a noticeable impact, such as high performance snow guns. Also, there is an opportunity to improve lighting. As for the future, we have a strategic plan that calls for significant capital improvements to snowmaking and buildings, a surface lift, nightlights, and trail improvements.


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## Abubob (Oct 25, 2013)

*Whaleback to Reopen*

http://www.vnews.com/home/9039202-95/whaleback-will-reopen-after-raising-100000-in-two-weeks



> IN THE VALLEY NEWS TODAY!
> 
> Whaleback Will Reopen After Raising $100,000 in Two Weeks
> By Sarah Brubeck
> ...


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Oct 25, 2013)

Why not just steal a lift from Ascutney? One day it's there, next day it's gone. 10,000 skiers and no one saw a thing.


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## ss20 (Oct 26, 2013)

http://unofficialnetworks.com/ski-lift-stolen-czech-republic-96232/


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