# Killington, 1/20/10 - The tamest "Beast" I've ever met :-(



## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

Dad and I headed down to big 'ol K this morning.  Drove up to K1, cloud covering the peak.  Got ticket.  Went up K1.  Took a token run on Juggernaut-Sassafras to get to Bear.  Actually decided to ride the Skye Peak Express to take a warmup run, and have a look at the park (just for comparison... I don't ski much in the park).  

Then rode up Bear Quad.  Skied Outer Limits.  Lame, from a mogul skiing perspective.  It was groomed for the holiday weekend, and the "bumps" on skiers' right were atrocious... just big piles of "puff" with 25' sections of hardpack/chaulkdust/icy snowmaking between them.  Back up Skye Peak quad and down Skyelark... more piles of puff with bad patches between.  

Back up K1.  Skied over to the Snowdon area.  Up Snowdon Quad, over to Northstar, only to find it basically flat (Great Bear looked about the same).  A patroller was skiing by, so I asked him if there were any real bumps.  His answer?  "Not really."  Guess they groomed the whole mountain for the holiday weekend.  He said the only real bumps he could think of were on Conclusion.  The patroller was very cordial, and even apologized for the total lack of mogul terrain.

Took one run on conclusion.  It was mediocre.  Steep, natural bumps.  But crappy, irregular bumps.  Walls and gnarly ruts (<- not good gnarly, BAD gnarly).  They have a nice looking bump course for KMS there, but the natural bumps were not very good.  In fact, I think I inadvertently offended one of the KMS coaches.  I was talking to my dad, saying how unfortunate it was that these were the "best" bumps on the mountain, and I didn't notice the coach standing at the top of the course until he gave me a dirty glance!  At least I had a good run after that, so I didn't look like a total idiot.  And it was actually a fun run, just not the greatest bumps.

So, after a thorough disappointment, and only a handful of runs, we left.  Visibility was pretty rough, and conditions were just not that good.  There was a couple inches of fresh on top of hard, overtilled snowmaking.  I realized today how lucky I am to live in the MRV.

It was particularly disappointing for my dad, who was a supervisor at Bear Mountain in the late 80s.  To see the deferred maintenance (i.e. Devil's Fiddle Quad line equipment), plus the total and complete lack of mogul terrain (Bear was his mogul haven in the day; even when he was a supervisor in the Upper Basin, he would sneak to Bear for his mogul fix)...  quite sad, really.

I try not to be too nasty about other resorts, but the only thought that kept going through my head was, "this place is a joke!"  I probably hit it at the wrong time, but that's irrelevant.  If they go grooming every bloody trail on the mountain for each big holiday, I think that's unfortunate (not to mention detrimental to snow quality).  And to see the remains of various old lifts (Devil's Fiddle, Needle's Eye, lower Northeast Passage) rotting away doesn't exactly lend the best appearance.

The mountain still has the "potential" to be an incredible ski area, and it still is incredible, from a scale perspective.  It's a huge resort, and a neat combination of infrastructure.  But it's certainly not any sort of "beast."  It was fun to get out for a day and ski somewhere different, but I can't wait to get back on the mountain here tomorrow.

Took the camera, but nothing was really worth photographing today.  Poor visibility + boring terrain = bad pictures.


If you like the concept of wide groomed runs all over the place, then you'd probably enjoy K.  Not my thing.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

I should add, in all fairness, that there were, in fact, a couple of nicely groomed cruisers that were soft and fun.  But that's not what I was looking for.


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## powbmps (Jan 20, 2010)

Well they got everyone all fired up early last week.  Lots of talk, but not much came of it.  

At least they blew snow on DF for a day.

(Bear _was_ the sh*t back in the late 80's for sure)


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## RootDKJ (Jan 20, 2010)

Enter HighwayStar in  3...2...1...


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## frankm938 (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Dad and I headed down to big 'ol K this morning.  Drove up to K1, cloud covering the peak.  Got ticket.  Went up K1.  Took a token run on Juggernaut-Sassafras to get to Bear.  Actually decided to ride the Skye Peak Express to take a warmup run, and have a look at the park (just for comparison... I don't ski much in the park).
> 
> Then rode up Bear Quad.  Skied Outer Limits.  Lamest thing ever.  It was groomed for the holiday weekend, and the "bumps" on skiers' right were absolutely atrocious... just big piles of crap with 25' sections of hardpack/chaulkdust snowmaking between them.  Disgusting.  Back up Skye Peak quad and down Skyelark... more piles of puff with nasty tilled snowmaking between.
> 
> ...



please send this to tom horrocks and chris nyberg.  they are nice guys and are doing a good job overall, but ive been saying how bad the bumps are on outer limits and that it needs to be seeded.   they seem to think its fine and only want to seed vertigo (which is flat and usually gets pretty good bumps anyway)  all it would take is one steep run to be seeded and the bump skiers at killington would be happy


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

Frank - I don't think seeding is the answer.  Killington has enough good skiers to get natural bumps.  The problem is with how they prepare the trail (combination of snowmaking and grooming practices).  If they would keep the cats off of it from day one, it would ski into great natural bumps.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2010)

Grooming Outer Limits for ANY reason other than after a freeze / thaw event or when it gets completely rutted out is pretty much sacrilegious in my eyes.  It is THE signature mogul run on the East Coast, maybe even the country for that matter.  Even grooming half of it is unacceptable.  Killington has what? 200 runs?  They don't need to make all of them accessible to the advanced intermediate crowd. There is no benefit for Killington by offering a groomed Outer Limits AT ALL.


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## frankm938 (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Frank - I don't think seeding is the answer.  Killington has enough good skiers to get natural bumps.  The problem is with how they prepare the trail (combination of snowmaking and grooming practices).  If they would keep the cats off of it from day one, it would ski into great natural bumps.



the bumps sucked before they groomed it and the ones you skied on the right side that were all spaced out, have never seen a groomer.  they seed the lower left of OL for the BMMC and it stays good until they shut down bear (usually a few weeks later).  other than that, the only good bumps you can count on are on the golfcourse (the top of the trail, under the lift)


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> It is THE signature mogul run on the East Coast, maybe even the country for that matter.



It hasn't been for quite a few years.  They've been grooming half of it for ages, and they've even been grooming the whole thing under certain circumstances.

You have to drive another hour north to get to the mogul capital of the east now.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> the bumps sucked before they groomed it and the ones you skied on the right side that were all spaced out, have never seen a groomer.  they seed the lower left of OL for the BMMC and it stays good until they shut down bear (usually a few weeks later).  other than that, the only good bumps you can count on are on the golfcourse (the top of the trail, under the lift)



I still contend that seeding isn't the answer.  Getting a better grip on snowmaking would be a good first step.  The snow they've made on that trail is a big factor in those widely spaced piles of crud.

Plus, I suppose a lot of the bump crowd is visiting us up north now.  Which is a good thing for us, but not for you guys at K.


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## mondeo (Jan 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Grooming Outer Limits for ANY reason other than after a freeze / thaw event or when it gets completely rutted out is pretty much sacrilegious in my eyes.  It is THE signature mogul run on the East Coast, maybe even the country for that matter.  Even grooming half of it is unacceptable.  Killington has what? 200 runs?  They don't need to make all of them accessible to the advanced intermediate crowd. There is no benefit for Killington by offering a groomed Outer Limits AT ALL.


Snowmaking whales a couple weekends ago warranted grooming. Very deceptive, therefore dangerous. Go off at what you think is a slow speed, expecting to only squeeze in a spread, and 15 feet in the air. I'm glad I didn't go off at what I thought was a moderate speed. Lost a friend for the season on one of them.

Fun, but dangerous. Can't blame them for grooming - maybe for not adjusting gun position during the blow.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Snowmaking whales a couple weekends ago warranted grooming. Very deceptive, therefore dangerous. Go off at what you think is a slow speed, expecting to only squeeze in a spread, and 15 feet in the air. I'm glad I didn't go off at what I thought was a moderate speed. Lost a friend for the season on one of them.
> 
> Fun, but dangerous. Can't blame them for grooming - maybe for not adjusting gun position during the blow.




That's poor snowmaking.  It's not difficult to make wide-dispersal snow that doesn't require grooming.  You just need to commit to babysitting the guns.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> It hasn't been for quite a few years.  They've been grooming half of it for ages, and they've even been grooming the whole thing under certain circumstances.
> 
> You have to drive another hour north to get to the mogul capital of the east now.



Perhaps I'm nostalgic.

I'll admit, I haven't skied K since the spring of 2001 and really only a handful of times since I graduated HS in 94.  But from 84-94, I skied at K 5-10 times a season and Bear Mountain was all bumps every time I went and great ones at that.  Much like it is at Sugarbush North today.

I'll give you that Sugarbush, North especially, is the bump capital of the east now.  It still does not nor will it ever have the one trail like Outer Limits apparently is no longer.  

I have three lift tickets to use in Vermont this season.  1 will be at Stowe, 1 probably Sugarbush and the last I'd love to use at Killington in March where I hope I find great bumps.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> That's poor snowmaking.  It's not difficult to make wide-dispersal snow that doesn't require grooming.  You just need to commit to babysitting the guns.



You know what I've been thinking of for the past several years with the advent of seeding (necessary in 95% of NE ski areas) is wouldn't the next logical step in technology be automated oscillating tower snow guns?  Get the right temps with minimal winds and bam, at the flip of a switch evenly refresh the bump field with 3 inches of fluff over night when it's needed.


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## frankm938 (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> I still contend that seeding isn't the answer.  Getting a better grip on snowmaking would be a good first step.  The snow they've made on that trail is a big factor in those widely spaced piles of crud.
> 
> Plus, I suppose a lot of the bump crowd is visiting us up north now.  Which is a good thing for us, but not for you guys at K.



i know smitty went up there, but the same crew is still at K that has been there for years.
not sure its the snowmaking, because even after a natural dump, OL bumps are spaced out.  i thinks its the wide skis and snowboards getting on the trails right after it snows.  they make longer turns which result in spaced out bumps.

in any case, the bump skiers at killington would appreciate if you gave killington management your opinion on the OL bumps


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> You know what I've been thinking of for the past several years with the advent of seeding (necessary in 95% of NE ski areas) is wouldn't the next logical step in technology be automated oscillating tower snow guns?  Get the right temps with minimal winds and bam, at the flip of a switch evenly refresh the bump field with 3 inches of fluff over night when it's needed.



Several manufacturers already offer automatically oscillating guns.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> i know smitty went up there, but the same crew is still at K that has been there for years.
> not sure its the snowmaking, because even after a natural dump, OL bumps are spaced out.  i thinks its the wide skis and snowboards getting on the trails right after it snows.  they make longer turns which result in spaced out bumps.
> 
> in any case, the bump skiers at killington would appreciate if you gave killington management your opinion on the OL bumps



Not just talking about Smitty and the KMS guys... I just mean the bump skiers in general.


The problem with the snowmaking is that it is underneath the natural, no matter what.  You get a 2 foot dump of natural on hard/slick snowmaking, and within a few days you'll have pushed piles of crap with snowmaking between them.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Several manufacturers already offer automatically oscillating guns.



anyone in New England employ them?


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## 2knees (Jan 20, 2010)

this is a depressing report.

and i mean no offense to you bmm, it's just sad to hear.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> anyone in New England employ them?



I'm 95% certain our Polecat in the base area at Mt. Ellen has an oscillator on it.  I think we also have a Ratnik Snowgiant II or V on an oscillating tower mount.  I'm sure other places have them.

There's a lot more to it, though.  It's both science and art.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 20, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> I'm 95% certain our Polecat in the base area at Mt. Ellen has an oscillator on it.  I think we also have a Ratnik Snowgiant II or V on an oscillating tower mount.  I'm sure other places have them.
> 
> There's a lot more to it, though.  It's both science and art.



I get that


As former 'bump addict' that still loves bumps, I think it goes without saying that most bump skiers would be 100% satisfied if they could show up to their home mountain and have 1, just 1, great bump run available to them 75% of the time.  It's New England.  Weather happens.  Outside of the Northern Greens, expecting great bumps more than 75% of the time is unreasonable.  

I would love to see an area, (Ragged for instance on Showboat ), line a seeded bump run with oscillating snow guns where you flip the switch one night a week when there's been no recent natural snow to freshen them up or fill in deep troughs. 

Bump skiers are the minority, but we also have the smallest terrain needs of any 'genre'.  I grew up skiing Okemo.  I skied Sel's Choice 20-30 times a day and that's it.  I was happy as long as the bumps were good on ONE trail.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Bump skiers are the minority



We wouldn't be so much if more ski areas would offer lower-angle learning moguls, plus at least one steeper bump run.

I definitely like the idea of coating bumps with snowmaking in dry spells, and have thought about it many times before.


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## 2knees (Jan 20, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I get that
> 
> 
> As former 'bump addict' that still loves bumps, I think it goes without saying that most bump skiers would be 100% satisfied if they could show up to their home mountain and have 1, just 1, great bump run available to them 75% of the time.  It's New England.  Weather happens.  Outside of the Northern Greens, expecting great bumps more than 75% of the time is unreasonable.
> ...



move to connecticut then.  I'm seriously starting to think sundown is the only place in new england that you'll find bumps NO MATTER WHAT.

they may be icy at times, they may be on the short side and it isnt the steepest but upper nor' easter and temptor are always open and always have bumps.  

ALWAYS.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 20, 2010)

2knees said:


> move to connecticut then.  I'm seriously starting to think sundown is the only place in new england that you'll find bumps NO MATTER WHAT.



Don't forget Mt. Ellen.  None of our bump trails have seen a cat this season (and the only one that was groomed last year was half of Cliffs), and barring extreme weather, I don't expect that they will.


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## JD (Jan 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Grooming Outer Limits for ANY reason other than after a freeze / thaw event or when it gets completely rutted out is pretty much sacrilegious in my eyes.  It is THE signature mogul run on the East Coast, maybe even the country for that matter.  Even grooming half of it is unacceptable.  Killington has what? 200 runs?  They don't need to make all of them accessible to the advanced intermediate crowd. There is no benefit for Killington by offering a groomed Outer Limits AT ALL.



They know their customer for holiday W/Es..


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## deadheadskier (Jan 21, 2010)

JD said:


> They know their customer for holiday W/Es..



I would flat out tell the customers.  "You want to ski Outer Limits?  Learn how to ski bumps.  The ski school desk is right over yonder."


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## JD (Jan 21, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Don't forget Mt. Ellen.  None of our bump trails have seen a cat this season (and the only one that was groomed last year was half of Cliffs), and barring extreme weather, I don't expect that they will.



All those trails are so fun when they are not bumped.  Well cliffs is a little boring, but hammer head, tumbler, and the upper and lower lift line (Ovation and encore?)  have some super fun natural flow....
Bush stoke...


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## skiadikt (Jan 21, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> That's poor snowmaking.  It's not difficult to make wide-dispersal snow that doesn't require grooming.  You just need to commit to babysitting the guns.



agree. i think that and the fact they blow wet snow are the major sources of the problem. essentially they seem to set 'em and forget 'em forming huge piles or whales. (that's prolly why double dipper slid last year and panic almost did this year.) throw in the fact that the snow is wet and sets up like concrete, you almost have to groom 'em. but after grooming you still have a hard icy surface underneath that forms lousy widely spaced bumps and that new nat snow has trouble sticking to.

now i skied k this weekend and thought those conclusion bumps were actually pretty good (not great, awesome) though i did seem to get walled out at the same bump every trip down. probably the best line was on powerline. they had mowed what i thought were pretty good bumps on snowmaking trails like dreammaker & wildfire and the natural trails like escapade, ridge run and north star. it was all very surprising to me since there hadn't been any weather disaster that forced them to groom.


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> anyone in New England employ them?



I know that Mount Snow has a bunch of them, I don't think it's all 251 of them, but I've definately seen the ones on towers lining Canyon in oscillating mode.


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## Talisman (Jan 21, 2010)

Did you hit up Ovation?  On Sunday that trail had good bumps and great faux sneaux and the snow into Monday should have just made it sweeter.


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## Greg (Jan 21, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> I still contend that seeding isn't the answer.  Getting a better grip on snowmaking would be a good first step.  The snow they've made on that trail is a big factor in those widely spaced piles of crud.
> 
> Plus, I suppose a lot of the bump crowd is visiting us up north now.  Which is a good thing for us, but not for you guys at K.





frankm938 said:


> i know smitty went up there, but the same crew is still at K that has been there for years.
> not sure its the snowmaking, because even after a natural dump, OL bumps are spaced out.  i thinks its the wide skis and snowboards getting on the trails right after it snows.  they make longer turns which result in spaced out bumps.
> 
> in any case, the bump skiers at killington would appreciate if you gave killington management your opinion on the OL bumps



I think it's a combination of overgroomed snow and a majority of skiers that ski differently now that ski technology makes it easier to carve medium to long radius turns. Last spring at Killington was rough for bumps. Escapade had maybe 10-15 bump zippers, but trails like Cascade and Lower East Fall were so pinned down from months of brutal grooming that bumps couldn't form. East Fall gets beat on by the sun and I skied it on a 50+ degree sunny day and crappy GS bumps were the only thing that formed.

Still, I think even if the snow was prepared well, you won't see tons of zippers forming. You get it in the MRV because I think most bump addicts know there are better bumps up there. So until we break the vicious cycle of: bad or no bumps > most people can't learn to ski bumps > so they insist on more grooming > bad or no bumps > most people can't learn to ski bumps > so they insist on more grooming > bad or no bumps > most people can't learn to ski bumps > so they insist on more grooming.....I think seeding is the only answer, and on a few pitches.



deadheadskier said:


> As former 'bump addict' that still loves bumps, I think it goes without saying that *most bump skiers would be 100% satisfied if they could show up to their home mountain and have 1, just 1, great bump run available* to them 75% of the time.....Bump skiers are the minority, but *we also have the smallest terrain needs of any 'genre'.*  I grew up skiing Okemo.  I skied Sel's Choice 20-30 times a day and that's it.  I was happy as long as the bumps were good on ONE trail.



All good points. Let's say two trails though - intermediate pitch and steep pitch so people can learn and then progress. The bottom line though is most ski areas have plenty of terrain for this.



BushMogulMaster said:


> We wouldn't be so much if more ski areas would offer lower-angle learning moguls, plus at least one steeper bump run.



Yep.



2knees said:


> move to connecticut then.  I'm seriously starting to think sundown is the only place in new england that you'll find bumps NO MATTER WHAT.
> 
> they may be icy at times, they may be on the short side and it isnt the steepest but upper nor' easter and temptor are always open and always have bumps.
> 
> ALWAYS.



Yep. And they don't have a ton of real estate to spare, yet they still do it. And it seems to be working for them.



JD said:


> They know their customer for holiday W/Es..



Most of the customers are a victim of this vicious cycle. That is true. And it's unfortunate that we'll probably never see this again:






Even more depressing for me personally is when Outer Limits looked like that I was a total gaper and just found myself traversing it and poaching the rippers' lines. Nevertheless, you mid-90's rippers left a big impression on me. It made be say to myself back then "I want to ski like *those *guys someday." I'm still trying to get there... :lol:

This is a depressing report. I was having high hopes for good mogul skiing Killington this spring. I really had the impression that the grooming was being toned down this year. Then the news of seeded bumps on Vertigo and more bumps elsewhere had me pumped that we could see a spring once again that looked like this:





Still holding out hope that we'll see some good bumps well into May. BTW, whatever happened to the Vertigo seeding project? Never heard anything more about it actually happening.

I've directed Tom and Chris to this thread.


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2010)

Greg said:


> .



This picture brings back so many awesome memories    Total mixed emotions


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## Greg (Jan 21, 2010)

drjeff said:


> Total mixed emotions



Why "mixed"?


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2010)

Greg said:


> Why "mixed"?



What OL was almost all the time then vs. what it is most of the time now


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## RootDKJ (Jan 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> anyone in New England employ them?


Even Blue has a few of these.


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## ozzy (Jan 21, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Dad and I headed down to big 'ol K this morning.  Drove up to K1, cloud covering the peak.  Got ticket.  Went up K1.  Took a token run on Juggernaut-Sassafras to get to Bear.  Actually decided to ride the Skye Peak Express to take a warmup run, and have a look at the park (just for comparison... I don't ski much in the park).
> 
> Then rode up Bear Quad.  Skied Outer Limits.  Lame, from a mogul skiing perspective.  It was groomed for the holiday weekend, and the "bumps" on skiers' right were atrocious... just big piles of "puff" with 25' sections of hardpack/chaulkdust/icy snowmaking between them.  Back up Skye Peak quad and down Skyelark... more piles of puff with bad patches between.
> 
> ...



BMM,

I value your web insights and opinions, but how can you fairly judge the largest ski area on the east coast on just a hand full of runs with crap visibility??

In your report you didn't seem to ski:
Royal Flush- probably the best bumps on the mountain
Old needles eye- the second best bumps on the mountain
Old superstar
stichline
west glade
breakaway
pipe dream
big dipper
all these are skiing well and are great natural snow trails that never get groomed for the most part (well except west glade)

snowmaking trails that have moguls:
skyehawk (actually a nat snow trail, but gets a ton of blow over from superstar headwall)
skiers right of mouse trap
devils fiddle
skiers left of L. Superstar

yeah sure they mowed the place down for the long weekend, but have since cut back grooming. OL was left alone today as was L. Skyelark
I think the poor visibility (and yes it did suck yesterday and was way worse on tuesday) got the best of you. Not a lot of fun skiing around looking for stuff when you have less than a 2 chair visibility


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 21, 2010)

ozzy - you're right, and that was certainly a big part of it.  But I've watched this place over quite a few years, and it's just been disappointing.  I've skied at K the past two seasons as well, and have had essentially the same results (although usually found bumps on Northstar). 

I was really trying to make 2 points

1. Mowing down all of the big bump runs for the holidays is short-sighted, especially at such a large resort
2. The snow surfaces practices at Killington are making quality mogul formation next to impossible in a lot of areas


I looked at Royal Flush, btw, and it looked ok, but not great IMO.  I also looked at a couple of those other runs you mentioned, and was not that impressed.  I guess my standards are kinda high for bumps, based on where I ski most often (Bush and Mary Jane), and what Killington used to have.  And the fact that a patroller couldn't point me to a good bump run is a shame.  Not his fault... just seems to be a commentary on the mogul skiing there.  It wasn't that long ago when any patroller at K could have pointed me to Outer Limits, knowing that I would find fun bumps.  Not so anymore.

Anyway... it's all good.  I've got tons of bumps to ski every day.  Just always disappointing to see what's happened to what *used* to be the mogul capital of the east.


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## frankm938 (Jan 21, 2010)

ozzy said:


> BMM,
> 
> I value your web insights and opinions, but how can you fairly judge the largest ski area on the east coast on just a hand full of runs with crap visibility??
> 
> ...



you can always find some sort of bump run if you know where to look.  but you shouldnt need to look that hard.  they should be on OL, right in your face as you pull into the parking lot, under the chair as you ride up.  when i first started skiing K many years ago, you could always count on top to bottom bumps on OL.  i didnt mind doing a 3 hour each way day trip to ski OL all day.  its the reason i joined a ski house at K and eventually bought a house there.  its frustrating to be there every wknd and see the kind of bumps that are on outer limits now.   im sure there are plenty of people like patrick that come for the day, search around for good bumps and leave frustrated (most wont come back)
the easiest fix would be to seed a section of OL.  im sure BMM's trip report would have been much different if there was a seeded section of OL.


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## skiingsnow (Jan 22, 2010)

Bumps not as big, but Outer Limits does still get bumped up edge to edge





And they still let others bump up edge to edge too...

Superstar





Downdraft and Double Dipper


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## skiadikt (Jan 22, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Bumps not as big, but Outer Limits does still get bumped up edge to edge
> 
> 
> 
> ...




skippy you had to go back nearly 2 years in your archives to find pics to make your point. frankm & bmm's comments refer to when k WAS the mogul capital of the east which it clearly no longer is. and your foto of vertigo from yesterday shows minimal bumpage despite today's snow report touting vertigo as the place to go for bumps.

from friday k report:
"Enjoy sunny skies throughout the day while carving down 65 groomed trails, or check out the moguls on Escapade, Northstar or Vertigo."

moguls on vertigo???





or jbkmart's thursday report:
"So anyway, They groomed a strip down the middle of lower Vertigo. The groomer left big chunks of crud on both sides where the powder was. I don't know if you guys ever ski on frozen basketballs, but I thought that it wasn't that great."


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## drjeff (Jan 22, 2010)

skiingsnow said:


> Bumps not as big, but Outer Limits does still get bumped up edge to edge
> 
> 
> 
> ...



SS, the problem with those pics is that they're from almost 2 years ago.  And while K has changed since then (and consensus would say generally for the better) it's not an indication of what the modern 2010 grooming/snow maintence/bump plan is for K.  And what it seems is the crux of BMM's criticism (and remember he drives a cat) is how K is going about managing the snow of their bump runs.  It's one thing to just make a ton of snow (which K has) but an entirely different thing to maintain it, especially with respect to bumps.


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## Greg (Jan 22, 2010)

Part of the problem is I think some people have a misunderstanding of what good bumps are. The OL bumps in skiingsnow's pic look pretty good. Supe looks okay, nothing great, but those Downdraft/Dipper moguls are typical GS shit bumps. Just because a trail is ungroomed and bumpy doesn't mean they're good mogul zipperlines.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2010)

good point.  I'd probably rather ski a groomer than the garbage pictured on downdraft and double dipper


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## 2knees (Jan 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Part of the problem is I think some people have a misunderstanding of what good bumps are. The OL bumps in skiingsnow's pic look pretty good. Supe looks okay, nothing great, but those Downdraft/Dipper moguls are typical GS shit bumps. Just because a trail is ungroomed and bumpy doesn't mean they're good mogul zipperlines.




well, if you could ski anything other then seeded bumps, you may have a different opinion.  :flame: :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm a gaper.  I can only ski seeded bumps.  I'm sure people laugh at me at Ragged as there are no seeded bumps.


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## Greg (Jan 22, 2010)

2knees said:


> well, if you could ski anything other then seeded bumps, you may have a different opinion.  :flame: :lol:



You're right! I almost forgot. :lol:


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## drjeff (Jan 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Part of the problem is I think some people have a misunderstanding of what good bumps are. The OL bumps in skiingsnow's pic look pretty good. Supe looks okay, nothing great, but those Downdraft/Dipper moguls are typical GS shit bumps. Just because a trail is ungroomed and bumpy doesn't mean they're good mogul zipperlines.



I don't know about that.  I look at those pictures, and I see the Killington (and many other places across the US) bumps that I grew up skiing in the 80's/early 90's.  Big, wide front faces and a bit of a spine down their longer backside and variability in their sizing and spacing.  The type of bumps where you really had to be looking 2 to 5 bumps downhill to stay on top of your line. And there were plenty of folks ripping zipperlines down bump fields that looked just like that - the difference was when a "rogue spaced" bump popped up in the line, you dealt with it - might not look as pretty as a generally perfectly rythmic seeded line, but you either dealt with it,  exploded on it, or just looked a bit herb like for a few seconds


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## Greg (Jan 22, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I don't know about that.  I look at those pictures, and I see the Killington (and many other places across the US) bumps that I grew up skiing in the 80's/early 90's.  Big, wide front faces and a bit of a spine down their longer backside and variability in their sizing and spacing.  The type of bumps where you really had to be looking 2 to 5 bumps downhill to stay on top of your line. And there were plenty of folks ripping zipperlines down bump fields that looked just like that - the difference was when a "rogue spaced" bump popped up in the line, you dealt with it - might not look as pretty as a generally perfectly rythmic seeded line, but you either dealt with it,  exploded on it, or just looked a bit herb like for a few seconds



You're right. Thanks for setting this seeded-only bump skier straight.


----------



## St. Bear (Jan 22, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> good point.  I'd probably rather ski a groomer than the garbage pictured on downdraft and double dipper



Spend a season skiing a place like MC, and get back to me as to whether or not you still feel that way.

Bad bumps >> no bumps


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## 2knees (Jan 22, 2010)

drjeff said:


> I don't know about that.  I look at those pictures, and I see the Killington (and many other places across the US) bumps that I grew up skiing in the 80's/early 90's.  Big, wide front faces and a bit of a spine down their longer backside and variability in their sizing and spacing.  The type of bumps where you really had to be looking 2 to 5 bumps downhill to stay on top of your line. And there were plenty of folks ripping zipperlines down bump fields that looked just like that - the difference was when a "rogue spaced" bump popped up in the line, you dealt with it - might not look as pretty as a generally perfectly rythmic seeded line, but you either dealt with it,  exploded on it, or just looked a bit herb like for a few seconds



I have to disagree with this assesment of the cascade/dipper pic.  those sure look pretty useless to me and i also grew up skiing bumps through the 80's and early 90's.  I remember cascade back when it was regularly bumped and it sure never looked like that.

I think sometimes the term "zipperline" is over used and misunderstood.  Again, looks can be decieving, but i dont see anything even remotely zipperlineable in that pic.


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## Greg (Jan 22, 2010)

2knees said:


> I have to disagree with this assesment of the cascade/dipper pic.  those sure look pretty useless to me and i also grew up skiing bumps through the 80's and early 90's.  I remember cascade back when it was regularly bumped and it sure never looked like that.
> 
> I think sometimes the term "zipperline" is over used and misunderstood.  Again, looks can be decieving, but i dont see anything even remotely zipperlineable in that pic.



Shut up and go ski some seeded bumps you poser.


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## 2knees (Jan 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Shut up and go ski some seeded bumps you poser.



like these perfectly symmetrical left right left cheater lines?














seriously, the whole nat or seeded thing is really out there.  these were seeded and sure didnt ski all perfect.  deep, oddly shaped and fast.


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## bvibert (Jan 22, 2010)

2knees said:


> I have to disagree with this assesment of the cascade/dipper pic.  those sure look pretty useless to me and i also grew up skiing bumps through the 80's and early 90's.  I remember cascade back when it was regularly bumped and it sure never looked like that.
> 
> I think sometimes the term "zipperline" is over used and misunderstood.  Again, looks can be decieving, but i dont see anything even remotely zipperlineable in that pic.



Highwaystar could totally zipperline the crap out of those bumps.


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## 2knees (Jan 22, 2010)

bvibert said:


> Highwaystar could totally zipperline the crap out of those bumps.




Mr. Star is on another level.  Not a fair comparison.


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## bvibert (Jan 22, 2010)

2knees said:


> Mr. Star is on another level.  Not a fair comparison.



You're right, don't know what I was thinking...  Sorry...


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## Greg (Jan 22, 2010)

2knees said:


> like these perfectly symmetrical left right left cheater lines?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, exactly. I wonder how many here that think seeded bumps are so easy are going to show up at the mighty Sundown and test their mettle next weekend....

I forgot how big, deep and troughy those upper bumps were. :-o


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## 2knees (Jan 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> Yeah, exactly. I wonder how many here that think seeded bumps are so easy are going to show up at the mighty Sundown and test their mettle next weekend....
> 
> I forgot how big, deep and troughy those upper bumps were. :-o



stop flexing the muscles tough guy!  :wink:

i just think that people underestimate how much the end product realies on the people skiing them in.  Natty or seeded, both can be very easy and forgiving or total crap and difficult.


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## bvibert (Jan 22, 2010)

Greg said:


> I forgot how big, deep and troughy those upper bumps were. :-o



I hope they don't look like that this year, I'll be too scared to ski them...


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## andyzee (Jan 23, 2010)

Shots from today:


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## Newpylong (Jan 24, 2010)

I agree, I think all of the old towers/lift equipment needs to be removed if it's just going to sit there. It's an eyesore and does not help the image of th emt.


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## Highway Star (Jan 24, 2010)

Sounds like someone needs a guided tour of the resort.

Bumps this weekend:

Ovation
Royal Flush
Old Superstar
Superstar (lower)
Big Dipper
Double Dipper
Upper Downdraft
Upper Cascade
Devil's Fiddle
Jug
Jug Handle
Breakaway
Lower Pipe Dream
Needles Eye Liftline
The Steps
Outer Limits
West Glade
Catwalk
Powerline
Thimble
Old Needles Eye
Upper Dreamaker
Upper Vertigo

....that's just what I observed and/or skied. Quite a variety of bumps too. GS bumps, zipper lines, natural snow gnar bumps, etc. Pretty much everything. I don't understand what all the complaining is about.

Didn't get over to snowdon or most of the marked woods, but I'm sure there were some bumps there too.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 24, 2010)

Fair enough HWS, but you can't deny the fact that Killington is no where near the bumpers paradise it was 15+ years ago........


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## Highway Star (Jan 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Fair enough HWS, but you can't deny the fact that Killington is no where near the bumpers paradise it was 15+ years ago........


 
So what?  Freeskiing/Freestyle has moved on from serious bump skiing for the most part.  Park skiing is a much bigger deal.  Treeskiing and powder skiing is a much bigger deal.  

Can you really expect a resort to spend a large amount of time, effort and thought on something that has pretty much become marginalized?

You go out west and nobody skis like a bump skier anymore.  Go to Stowe - people ski natural bumps there but they don't ski like bump skiers.  Heck, most of the people I ski with at Killington certainly ski bumps as part of all around freeskiing, but they don't ski like bump skiers.  

I skied plenty of bumps in the 90's, and even skied like a bump skier sometimes.  But it isn't the 90's anymore, and I got over it.

Killington is an anomaly in that there is a large group of people that take bump skiing seriously, and they will aways be unhappy that the bumps aren't like they were back in the day. 

That said, they could certainly stand to seed some decent zipper line bumps on both OL and the lower lookers right of Superstar.


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## Greg (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> So what?  Freeskiing/Freestyle has moved on from serious bump skiing for the most part.  Park skiing is a much bigger deal.  Treeskiing and powder skiing is a much bigger deal.
> 
> Can you really expect a resort to spend a large amount of time, effort and thought on something that has pretty much become marginalized?
> 
> ...



It really seems to be the reality of the situation. And yes, offering just a few good runs will satisfy most mogul skiers. Good to hear there was a lot of ungroomed terrain this weekend. Perhaps BMM did hit it at a bad time. I'll save final judgment until spring cuz that's when it really matters. It does seem like the grooming has been lightened quite a bit which hopefully means the base isn't totally pinned down and we'll get some good bump lines setting up this spring.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> You go out west and nobody skis like a bump skier anymore.  Go to Stowe - people ski natural bumps there but they don't ski like bump skiers.



I don't know what this means.

If I'm skiing powder, I'm employing the best techniques I know for those conditions.  Same goes for carving on groomers.  Same goes for bumps.  

Why would someone 'ski like a bump skier' in powder or while carving?


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Sounds like someone needs a guided tour of the resort.
> 
> Bumps this weekend:
> 
> ...



the only bumps that were really good were on old superstar, needles eye lift line and freeway.   all those trails are low angle trails so the still arent any good bumps on steep terrain and most of the complaints on this thread are about the lack of good bumps on outer limits.   freeway was great and just about every killington bumper was there having a blast.  it doesnt take much to make the bumpers happy, one good run will do


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## 2knees (Jan 25, 2010)

what/where is freeway?


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> So what?  Freeskiing/Freestyle has moved on from serious bump skiing for the most part.  Park skiing is a much bigger deal.  Treeskiing and powder skiing is a much bigger deal.
> 
> Can you really expect a resort to spend a large amount of time, effort and thought on something that has pretty much become marginalized?
> 
> ...




ok lets go point by point...

powder is a much bigger deal than bump skiing... no shit, everyone likes powder better than bumps or anything else, but you cant count on a powder day everytime you go skiing (if i get 5-10 a year i'm happy)  park skiing is more popular with the teens and in the ski movies, but its still a small portion of the skiing population that hits the park, prob. about the same portion that likes bump skiing.  and they spend alot of time and money on the parks

i go out west twice a year and have been to stowe many times.  the people that are good enough to ski bumps like a bump skier,  do it, and the ones that cant, dont.  if you can charge straight  thru a mogul field using smooth even pressure on the front ur skis keeping your shoulders square and your upper body quiet you dont just use a different style because you think its cooler.  you can either rip bumps or you cant.  you came over and skied a few runs with my crew on sunday, do you think those bump skiers cant rip trees, powder, steeps, park or anything else you put in front of them?

killington may be an anomaly in regards to the large amount of people that take bump skiing seriously, but thats the mtn we are taking about so why not give that large amount of people what they want...  zipperline bumps on outer limits


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

2knees said:


> what/where is freeway?



freeway is along the ropeline between dbl dipper and dipper woods (under the canyon quad)


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> you came over and skied a few runs with my crew on sunday, do you think those bump skiers cant rip trees, powder, steeps, park or anything else you put in front of them?


 
I've never seen most bump skiers carve a turn.   I find that a little disappointing.


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> i go out west twice a year and have been to stowe many times. the people that are good enough to ski bumps like a bump skier, do it, and the ones that cant, dont. if you can charge straight thru a mogul field using smooth even pressure on the front ur skis keeping your shoulders square and your upper body quiet you dont just use a different style because you think its cooler.


 
If I wanted to ski like this, I would practice it.  So would other people.  Just like we all did in the 90's.  But now that fat/midfat freeskiing skis are available, there are many other entertaining ways to ski a variety of natural, inconsistant bumps.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I've never seen most bump skiers carve a turn.   I find that a little disappointing.



Then you're skiing with the wrong bump skiers.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> If I wanted to ski like this, I would practice it.  So would other people.  Just like we all did in the 90's.  But now that fat/midfat freeskiing skis are available, there are many other entertaining ways to ski a variety of natural, inconsistant bumps.



FWIW, the many thousands of skiers who visit (unique visits) my website would seem to feel differently than you.


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Then you're skiing with the wrong bump skiers.


 
I'm guessing your definition of a carved turn is a bit out of whack.


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> FWIW, the many thousands of skiers who visit (unique visits) my website would seem to feel differently than you.


 
Newschoolers.com >>> mogulskiing.net

http://forums.mogulskiing.net/

http://www.newschoolers.com/web/forums/forums


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 25, 2010)

Whatev.  I really do know better than to get into this.  Have it your way.


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Whatev. I really do know better than to get into this. Have it your way.


 
Going back on topic here....there was easily 25 trails at Killington with bumps on them this past Wednesday, plus probably 15 glades with bumps.  Most of them weren't perfect zipperline bumps.  But there were bumps.  

Personally, I find inconsistant bumps to be much more interesting.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jan 25, 2010)

Good.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I've never seen most bump skiers carve a turn.   I find that a little disappointing.



You know what I think?  I think you're just running interference to avoid defending yourself for being to chicken to compete in the BMMC.


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> You know what I think? I think you're just running interference to avoid defending yourself for being to chicken to compete in the BMMC.


 
I actually skied more bumps this weekend than I have all season, and didn't spend as much time in the woods.  

Probably won't do that again.


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> If I wanted to ski like this, I would practice it.  So would other people.  Just like we all did in the 90's.  But now that fat/midfat freeskiing skis are available, there are many other entertaining ways to ski a variety of natural, inconsistant bumps.



its the right way to ski bumps.  good bump skiers can ski bumps with the same style no matter what kind of ski there on.  90% of the time im on an 85 waist park ski, i dont start carving around bumps like a gaper just because im on a mid fat


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I've never seen most bump skiers carve a turn.   I find that a little disappointing.



you cant ski bumps without first being able to carve a turn.  as a matter of fact, when you ski bumps you are using a short radius carve.  thats why you dont see good bump skiers skidding down the backside of bumps, because the are actually carving down the backside


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Going back on topic here....there was easily 25 trails at Killington with bumps on them this past Wednesday, plus probably 15 glades with bumps.  Most of them weren't perfect zipperline bumps.  But there were bumps.
> 
> Personally, I find inconsistant bumps to be much more interesting.



inconsistant  bumps are a crutch


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## 2knees (Jan 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> its the right way to ski bumps.  good bump skiers can ski bumps with the same style no matter what kind of ski there on.  90% of the time im on an 85 waist park ski, i dont start carving around bumps like a gaper just because im on a mid fat





frankm938 said:


> you cant ski bumps without first being able to carve a turn.  as a matter of fact, when you ski bumps you are using a short radius carve.  thats why you dont see good bump skiers skidding down the backside of bumps, because the are actually carving down the backside





frankm938 said:


> inconsistant  bumps are a crutch



the hat trick.  

impressive.


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> you cant ski bumps without first being able to carve a turn. as a matter of fact, when you ski bumps you are using a short radius carve. thats why you dont see good bump skiers skidding down the backside of bumps, because the are actually carving down the backside


 
Riiiight.

A quick edge set down the fall line can hardly be considered any sort of carve.  WC mogul skiers do not carve.

Here is actual carving in moguls (start at 1:45):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwvSfitjG9w&feature=related


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## Highway Star (Jan 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> its the right way to ski bumps. good bump skiers can ski bumps with the same style no matter what kind of ski there on. 90% of the time im on an 85 waist park ski, i dont start carving around bumps like a gaper just because im on a mid fat


 
You need bigger skis.


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> Riiiight.
> 
> A quick edge set down the fall line can hardly be considered any sort of carve.  WC mogul skiers do not carve.
> 
> ...



wrong!  ive been to john smarts mogul clinic in whistler more than a few times and the coaches are all either current or former WC mogul skiers.  everyone of them teaches to carve down the backside of the moguls.  
and btw... that video has some great old school mogul skiing on it but none of those guys would do well by todays standards.
they are all letting there feet come out to the side on every turn instead of staying "stacked" with there shoulder, hip and feet stay in line over each other.
they are also planting on top of the bumps instead of the backside


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## PomfretPlunge (Jan 25, 2010)

And they are hinging wickedly too.  It's hard to see in the front angle video, but watch their heads bob sharply on each turn.  That's 'cause they're absorbing with their lower backs instead of full, smooth up-down knee range.  So their bodies are whipping forward each time.  Owwwch


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## frankm938 (Jan 25, 2010)

PomfretPlunge said:


> And they are hinging wickedly too.  It's hard to see in the front angle video, but watch their heads bob sharply on each turn.  That's 'cause they're absorbing with their lower backs instead of full, smooth up-down knee range.  So their bodies are whipping forward each time.  Owwwch



maybe cuz highway star hasnt skied bumps since the 90's, he thinks this is how they still should be skied


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## ozzy (Jan 25, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> wrong!  ive been to john smarts mogul clinic in whistler more than a few times and the coaches are all either current or former WC mogul skiers.  everyone of them teaches to carve down the backside of the moguls.
> and btw... that video has some great old school mogul skiing on it but none of those guys would do well by todays standards.
> they are all letting there feet come out to the side on every turn instead of staying "stacked" with there shoulder, hip and feet stay in line over each other.
> they are also planting on top of the bumps instead of the backside



Nice frank. When did you go to SMS? I went three yrs between 99 and 02

I agree. That vid is okay but their poles are to long for one thing.


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## Highway Star (Jan 26, 2010)

Most of that video is no more than a few years old and the people carving in the bumps are on modern midfat shaped skis. Ignore the first minute and a half which is from the 90's. 

I've heard the claim before that good mogul technique is to carve the back (downhill side) of bump while extending, but I've never seen it in reality.





(I like these videos because they show a variety of styles, or lack there of, on a very tough course)

Over the back side of the bump their skis are typically in the air or skidding. In a small handful of cases, you see them make a hard edge set and micro carve in the bump trough after their skis were off the ground over the back of the bump. 

Nobody carves the back of a bump unless it is a very flat trail.


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## Greg (Jan 26, 2010)

Highway Star said:


>



Check out 1:30. DBS owns a course that had a lot of the other guys bobbling. That guy is amazing.


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## frankm938 (Jan 26, 2010)

ozzy said:


> Nice frank. When did you go to SMS? I went three yrs between 99 and 02
> 
> I agree. That vid is okay but their poles are to long for one thing.



we must have crossed paths.  i was there from 01-07.   looking forward to going back this summer, its a blast.  i enjoy the mtn biking as much as the skiing.  the town goes off at nite
also.


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## mondeo (Jan 26, 2010)

Carving bumps:


It's very difficult to distinguish between skidding and carved turns at WC speeds, especially the men's. What looks like pivot & skid is just really short radius turns on a highly 3D surface. It's much more discernible among the women (partly because they don't go as close to the edge of control, partly because of speed) or in slow-mo for men.

The WC men spend much more time in the air, take much more direct lines, and use A&E to control speed more, but what ski-to-snow contact there is involves carving, fully on the tip of the ski:



Incidentally, I really like that competition format.

Skidding in the bumps is a crutch. I'll use it on steep bumps, places where going with a single carved turn I'd pick up way too much speed but I'm not good enough to throw in a couple check turns, icy bumps, etc., basically anywhere where my skill is lacking (which is a lot of places.) But even I, a hack, carve down good quality bumps on moderate pitches.


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## mondeo (Jan 26, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> we must have crossed paths.  i was there from 01-07.   looking forward to going back this summer, its a blast.  i enjoy the mtn biking as much as the skiing.  the town goes off at nite
> also.


I'll put you down for a referral. Should be making it myself.


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## Highway Star (Jan 26, 2010)

mondeo said:


> The WC men spend much more time in the air, take much more direct lines, and use A&E to control speed more, but what ski-to-snow contact there is involves carving, fully on the tip of the ski:
> 
> 
> 
> Incidentally, I really like that competition format.


 
I would still not call that carving.  It's a hard edge set with a small amount of slide due to snow displacement.


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## Greg (Jan 27, 2010)

Highway Star said:


> I would still not call that carving.  It's a hard edge set with a small amount of slide due to snow displacement.



In the purest definition of the word, yeah, you're probably right. There is some skid in there. After all, most mogul skis have a turn radius similar to that of a GS race ski. So despite them being much softer, you're still not going to get a true carve while in the bumps. There's not enough surface area on the backside (or is it frontside? I forget... :dunce: ) of a bump for that.

The point is though, there is some carving in there and the fact that the top bumpers can do it in a split second while incorporating a third dimension in the form of A&E and that's what's impressive to me.

I kinda forget what we're debating here....


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## ozzy (Jan 27, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> we must have crossed paths.  i was there from 01-07.   looking forward to going back this summer, its a blast.  i enjoy the mtn biking as much as the skiing.  the town goes off at nite
> also.



I thought that the mogul lanes to the lookers left of the T-bar were better (steeper) than lookers right.  To bad they use that for freeride terrain now. The stuff more toward the middle of the glacier has more of a Mt Hood pitch. 
Still a great time though, but the cost for the adult camp started to get too expensive. For the same price af a 9 day adult camp you can go to Chile and ski pow for week.
I enjoyed drinking with the coaches, especially Trennon, Jay Vaugh, Mike Actinkson and Marc McDonnel as off hill activities


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## ta&idaho (Jan 27, 2010)

I don't run a mogul skiing website, I wasn't here in the 80s, my family isn't intimately involved in the operations of a rival mountain, and I don't even have the vocabulary to debate world cup mogul technique, but I've always had a blast at Killington.  

And the last time I was there, Outer Limits was sporting some pretty fun bumps.


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## mayhem (Mar 27, 2010)

*Snowmaking*

After reading these comments I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions.

As a killington snowmaker, I'm used to hearing a lot of this talk from weekend/holiday warriors, none of whom have ever made snow in their life. I'm not sure where to begin but I'll start w/ the process:

You can't just sling powder everywhere and expect it to be there 4 hours after the lifts open. In late fall, we start by laying a base layer of heavy, wet snow to fill in all the cracks, eroded gulleys, and smooth over the boulders.

We gradually dry this up until we have a good base that's ice on the bottom, and powder on the top.

Problems:

There are micro-climates all over that resort. It's just a big collection of micro-climates actually. We start at the top of a run, and make small adjustments all the way down using water pressure. (We try to get all the air we can). 

A day is 24 hrs long, and the weather changes throughout. The sun comes up in the east and warms exposed surfaces, crossing the sky and warming other exposed surfaces as the day progresses. Cloud cover, humidity, wind - all affect the snow continuously. At night it DROPS big time.

Snowmakers watch all of this, and are ready to jump fast when something happens. It is one of the most demanding jobs there is. 12 hrs of humping down trails, covered in ice, practicing an art form that weekenders don't realize exists.

It costs BIG $$$$ to do this. Skiers see only what's visible. Behind those doors of pump houses and control rooms is a multi-million dollar snowmaking system, manned by experts, who consider themselves to be the best in the world at what they do.

Complaining about snow is like complaining about God. Only a God could control the myriad of factors that affect snow conditions, Killington can't, I can't, nobody can. The things that affect your weekend are the cumulative affects of every seconds worth of weather change the area has experienced since the first snowflake fell.

Grooming

Unfortunately for skiers, Ski Resorts are actually businesses that investors put money into hoping to see an above average return. Marketing knows how many reservations they have and what zip code their coming from.  We;re talking 10's of thousands of visitors from all over. While the majority are from New England, many come from the UK,

Of these thousands of paying customers with their families, a percentage have never been skiing in their life. I'll guess 10%. Another 40% ski 1 or 2 weekends a year, and make it a big family outing. On a holiday weekend, the locals don't go near the place.

How anyone would expect to have the mountain and snow to themselves on a holiday is beyond me. A holiday means roughly 80% of the skiers on double diamonds have no business being there. They aren't skiers they're obstacles - unpredictable and dangerous. They all want to say they ski'd the steepest mogul run in the east. They all want the T-shirt, and their parents are paying for it.

The idea that ANY ski resort in such a market could survive w/out extensive grooming is absurd. Why turn away 90% of your customers to cater to a few guys who show up twice a year expecting Breckenridge? Then they spend the rest of the year bad mouthing the place, the people, and the owners.

We don't have magic wands in those groomers. It might be the warmest job, but it isn't easy and it takes all night to groom some of those trails.  There is a limit to what can be done from 4:30pm to 9:00am, and it's an all out no holds barred race every night to make that place sparkle in the morning.

I know Killington isn't the greatest ski resort in the world. But when it comes to snowmaking, they're either 1 or 2, and have proved it.

Don't like the place? That's cool, but most of the critics here have VERY unrealistic expectations, from the weather, and from the people who invested that 80million!

Have fun skiing! Hope to see you out there.


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 27, 2010)

Welcome to the board, Mayhem.  Question: did you read the original post, or the rest of the thread before your reply?  I ask because your response/rebuttal seems to assume an awful lot, and doesn't directly apply to the topic at hand (mogul terrain and mogul formation).

BTW - lots of resorts make it without "extensive" grooming.  And the bumps at Breck aren't great... Mary Jane is the mogul mountain.



Just to keep everything clear and open - I'm the original poster.  I'm also a snowcat operator.  And I spent some time making snow as well (night shift, 7-7).  I speak from personal experience regarding snow science.  I respect what you do, but respectfully disagree with your assessment.


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 27, 2010)

Oh, and regarding original topic... seems like K has been leaving more bumps since the major holidays have passed.  I might be going down this week, and will post another report when I return.  Hoping for a much better experience.  I'll make sure to plan according to the forecast this time, instead of going on a whim at 9:00! :lol:


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## mayhem (Mar 27, 2010)

Sorry, I did read the original post. But rather than choose from the several dozen wrong-headed comments to quote, I thought it might be easier to lump them all together with the shotgun approach!  

Sorry for adding my 2 cents. I should have known better.


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 27, 2010)

mayhem said:


> Sorry, I did read the original post. But rather than choose from the several dozen wrong-headed comments to quote, I thought it might be easier to lump them all together with the shotgun approach!
> 
> Sorry for adding my 2 cents. I should have known better.




Your 2 cents is always welcome.  But that doesn't mean I have to agree.  And vice versa.

:beer:


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## jack97 (Mar 27, 2010)

mayhem said:


> The idea that ANY ski resort in such a market could survive w/out extensive grooming is absurd. Why turn away 90% of your customers to cater to a few guys who show up twice a year expecting Breckenridge? Then they spend the rest of the year bad mouthing the place, the people, and the owners.



IMO, if a place leaves some decent lines, bumpers will show up more than twice a year. Seed them if you have to.... prolly a must given the crowds they are currently attracting.


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 27, 2010)

You can't forget - it's not just about "bumpers."  It's about introducing those weekend warriors to something different, something more interesting than wall-to-wall cruisers.  Progression and learning terrain is the key.  More on that another day.


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## jack97 (Mar 27, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> You can't forget - it's not just about "bumpers."  It's about introducing those weekend warriors to something different, something more interesting than wall-to-wall cruisers.  Progression and learning terrain is the key.  More on that another day.



That's spot on. There's no point in placing a bump run or letting bumps form on a single steep trail, sometimes that defeats the purpose. 

Another key point is placing them at the right trails, imo best places to put them are in areas where the trees can protect them from wind and in sunny spots so that they can soften up... preferably both. In addition, traffic pattern, got to make them easy to get to so skiers and borders can work them in. This season at Sunapee, they added another mogul section at upper cattaract but it was hard to work them in because you can't lap that trail. That section sometimes had good bumps after a good dump but otherwise never held its shape and being expose to the wind didn't help it any either. I'm thankful that Sunapee is trying but they should have seeded a third run at another trail.


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## Newpylong (Mar 27, 2010)

They do need to stop being cheap f*cks and yank the towers out from Northeast Passage and Devil's Fiddle. It looks riduculous with them just rotting away. I guess the same can be said for the top terminal of Needles Eye too...


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## RootDKJ (Mar 27, 2010)




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## oakapple (Mar 28, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> They do need to stop being cheap f*cks and yank the towers out from Northeast Passage and Devil's Fiddle. It looks riduculous with them just rotting away. I guess the same can be said for the top terminal of Needles Eye too...



I assume the Devil's Fiddle towers and terminals will come out at some point, as they're an eyesore, and in a position where lots of people are forced to look at them.

The unused Northeast Passage towers are technically off resort property now. They are only visible near the bottom of the Sunrise Chair, which the vast majority of K guests do not use. Removing those towers would be an expensive operation (I believe they would have to be helicoptered out of there), and K wouldn't be one iota better as a result of it.


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## Newpylong (Mar 28, 2010)

I thought they still owned the area?


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## oakapple (Mar 28, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> I thought they still owned the area?



I am not sure whether they _ever_ owned the Northeast Passage, or if they merely had a permit to operate a ski area on public land. But in any case, I am fairly certain that they gave up their operating rights in that area in exchange for permits to develop the connection to Pico. The latter, of course, is on indefinite hold, no one knows for sure if it'll ever happen.


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## Newpylong (Mar 29, 2010)

Good point. If that is the case, I wonder how the state likes having old lift towers rusting away in the woods? perhaps they don't care... It goes to show you how rough shape ASC was in when they removed the lift, to leave the towers there.


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## bobbutts (Mar 29, 2010)

OL should be left to bump up and all efforts made to keep the bumps in top condition.



bring back "Moguls the size of Volkswagens"

The weekend warriors will struggle to get down and talk about how legendary it is.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2010)

mayhem said:


> Sorry, I did read the original post. But rather than choose from the several dozen wrong-headed comments to quote, I thought it might be easier to lump them all together with the shotgun approach!
> 
> Sorry for adding my 2 cents. I should have known better.



I think it is fine to have a different POV, but I think that BMM is in no way a "weekend warrior" and is in the business.  Most of your comments don't seem to reflect what BMM posted now over two months ago.


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## RootDKJ (Mar 29, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I think it is fine to have a different POV, but I think that BMM is in no way a "weekend warrior" and is in the business.


  Ya think?:roll:.  lol


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## BushMogulMaster (Mar 29, 2010)

:lol:  Thanks for the backup, guys!  It's always easier to pick on people when you dehumanize them with some sort of manufactured title like "weekend warrior."  :wink:

I'm not the consummate expert yet... I still have lots of years of experience to earn.  But I feel like I've got a pretty good grasp on basic snow surface concepts, and a solid understanding of how that topic relates to the formation and quality of moguls.


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