# Vehicle Related Opinios Wanted



## HD333 (Dec 1, 2011)

Looking for some input as this group seems to be a good resource and we need something to discuss since there is no SNOW.

 The wife's vehicle, 2006 Volvo XC-90, is getting long in the tooth and we are throwing around what to do with it. 85k miles needs new rubber which I put at approximately $1k but other than that it is in great shape mechanically.

The $60,000 question ( literally due to the vehicles she shows interest in). Do we put new rubber on it and keep our fingers crossed as it is out of warranty or do we bite the bullet and trade it in for a new or newer vehicle before it hits the 100k mark to get the most out of it? 
No payment has been nice but getting hit with a big repair will sting and most likely make us sell it after it is fixed anyways.

Thoughts?


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## hammer (Dec 1, 2011)

Guess it depends on your perspective, but to me 5-6 years old and 85K miles is just getting broken in...

What kind of engine does it have?  Asking because the T6 has the reputation for having bad transmissions.


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## HD333 (Dec 1, 2011)

It had the T5.


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## Glenn (Dec 1, 2011)

We tend to drive our vehicles for a long time. My Jeep is around 112k and I'll drive it until the floors Fred Flintstone out. 

85k doesn't sound all that bad. If you've kept up with it, it'll probably last you a good long while.


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## snoseek (Dec 1, 2011)

If you're worried about your volvo crapping out ant time in the next couple years then I would seriously consider buying a different brand. I know nothing about volovos BTW. I can't even contemplate trading in at 85k...


Edit-they make a fairly reliable vehicle right? If so drive it for years to come


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## ctenidae (Dec 1, 2011)

Can't speak to the Volvo's longevity. In that price range, though, I can sing the Cayenne's praises. They price gets ratched up pretty quickly depending on the doodads (colored insignias on the wheel hubs for $150 ftw) and add-ons, but we found ours to be reliable, fun to drive, practical, and fun to drive.


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## bigbog (Dec 1, 2011)

Tend to agree with hammer, and imho 80k for 5-6yrs is unbelievable stuff!   I've yet to see a stuck Volvo in winter..  If it looks like it's getting old...you might want to keep it for a winter-skiing/spring-summer-fall getaway to the outdoors car.  Priorities change once you drift further from the main highways or urban America.  Those dings in the body you notice, when driving up around the mountains, don't affect the psychic as much when you're having a good time....However, if there's something that really catches the eye...who am I to tell you what to do...  It's a free country(for the most part..)...

$.01

*EDIT:  Do ctenidae and I get a free lift ticket somewhere for synching out posts..?  LOL.


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## Geoff (Dec 1, 2011)

snoseek said:


> If you're worried about your volvo crapping out ant time in the next couple years then I would seriously consider buying a different brand. I know nothing about volovos BTW. I can't even contemplate trading in at 85k...
> 
> 
> Edit-they make a fairly reliable vehicle right? If so drive it for years to come



This.

Your car has depreciated down to $12 to $15K.   These are your prime, low-cost driving years on a car you know was treated properly since it was new.    A new $60K car is going to depreciate $10K per year over the next three years.   You have to pay sales tax on it.   Insurance is likely much more.   If you're in a state that has it, property tax will be much more.

You could have your car eat a turbo, blow up the ECU, and destroy a transmission in the next 3 years and still be way ahead financially compared to buying a new car.   

I don't buy expensive cars.   I paid $24K for my 2007 VW GTI and put a 100K extended warranty on it.   Edmunds says it's still worth $15K as a private sale and $12K+ as a trade.

If I were shopping for a suburban grocery getter that also had to haul children and serve as my primary ski car, I'd be looking at things like Outbacks and Pilots.   I don't need to spend the extra $30K as a status symbol.


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## jaja111 (Dec 1, 2011)

Its currently a seller's market and you won't get a deal on the new car or the value you want on the Volvo. Wait until the economic slump / post tsunami effects subside in a few years.


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## HD333 (Dec 1, 2011)

Good feedback. My gut says hang onto it. We used to get new vehicles every 3-4 years so this is uncharted water for us. Financially all signs point to hold onto it, love having only 1 car payment.

Definitely not looking for a status symbol vehicle, Toyota Sequia or Land Cruiser and another XC are high on her list of wants, no Lexus,Porsche,Hummer,Land Rover etc are on the radar.

Bigbob and ctenidae win lift tickets to Tenney see Nick for your vouchers...


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## ctenidae (Dec 1, 2011)

I'd go with the XC, then- either keep or new. The Cayenne isn't (well, doesn't have to be) a status symbol car- it is truly a great car to drive. driving back and forth from Boston to Connecticut through all kinds of really shitty weather, my wife never had a problem or felt unsafe. I ran it through some terrain it probably shouldn't have been in, and had no problems- even got over a 3-foot plow berm, down an unplowed steep driveway, and back up it the next day.

Buying a car because of what the neighbors will say is dumb. Buying a car because it does what you want it to is great. I get angry at most of the Cayenne Turbo or S drivers I see who drive 6 miles an hour and slow to 2 for every curve. Which is most of them.


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## Geoff (Dec 1, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I'd go with the XC, then- either keep or new. The Cayenne isn't (well, doesn't have to be) a status symbol car- it is truly a great car to drive. driving back and forth from Boston to Connecticut through all kinds of really shitty weather, my wife never had a problem or felt unsafe. I ran it through some terrain it probably shouldn't have been in, and had no problems- even got over a 3-foot plow berm, down an unplowed steep driveway, and back up it the next day.
> 
> Buying a car because of what the neighbors will say is dumb. Buying a car because it does what you want it to is great. I get angry at most of the Cayenne Turbo or S drivers I see who drive 6 miles an hour and slow to 2 for every curve. Which is most of them.



Since when is the Cayenne not a status symbol?   A stripped one with a Volkswagen engine is $50K.


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## ctenidae (Dec 1, 2011)

Geoff said:


> Since when is the Cayenne not a status symbol?   A stripped one with a Volkswagen engine is $50K.



Drive one.


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## Morwax (Dec 1, 2011)

You cant decide between 60K and 1K for tires?


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## Nick (Dec 1, 2011)

hammer said:


> Guess it depends on your perspective, but to me 5-6 years old and 85K miles is just getting broken in...
> 
> What kind of engine does it have?  Asking because the T6 has the reputation for having bad transmissions.



Yeah my perspective on this has changed drastically in the last 5 years. My Saab 9-3 (2003) has now 170k miles on it, and drives like it's new. I put about ~1500 a year into repairs into it. Right now it's in the shop for some new strut mounts ($300). 

All in all though, that works out to about $150 a month, so I put that aside each month and then pay for the repairs whent hey come. I've had the car for a lot longer than I expected and I'm so glad I don't have a payment right now. 

That said; pushing the 200k marker is making me nervous, so probably next summer or MAYBE the summer after that will be a new car time. Well, I usually buy cars 1 - 2 yrs used.


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## Nick (Dec 1, 2011)

Morwax said:


> You cant decide between 60K and 1K for tires?



Everyone has their own financial position, right? 

I wouldn't dream of spending over $25k on a car right now. Especially since my wife's car also has 120k and will be due soon as well. So that's 2 car payments we will be piling on. I'd like to keep it < $600 - $650 a month when we add them in. 

Our cars have trade in values of probably about 4 - 6k each, which helps.

When I bought my saab, I paid 26k for it. It was 1 yr old and had 3000 miles on it, and a CPO warranty to 100k. Had I bought the same car new, would have cost closer to $38k.


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## HD333 (Dec 1, 2011)

Morwax said:


> You cant decide between 60K and 1K for tires?



Not exactly. I view it as 1k towards tires or an additional 1k added to the cash we put down on new vehicle.


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## Geoff (Dec 1, 2011)

Nick said:


> Our cars have trade in values of probably about 4 - 6k each, which helps.



You are in dreamland.   A 2003 Saab with 170,000 miles on it will go straight to auction.   I'll bet that when you compensate for all those miles looking it up in Galves, it's more like $1,500 to $2,000.   With lemon laws, no dealer would dream of putting a car like that on their used car lot.  You might get $2,500 in a private sale but you'll have every CraigsList wierdo in the world emailing you trying to steal it for $1,000.


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## Geoff (Dec 1, 2011)

HD333 said:


> Not exactly. I view it as 1k towards tires or an additional 1k added to the cash we put down on new vehicle.



If the car needs tires, the dealer is going back that out of the value of your trade.


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## mlctvt (Dec 1, 2011)

Geoff said:


> If the car needs tires, the dealer is going back that out of the value of your trade.



IMO trading in any car never makes any sense. The last few cars I sold myself for an average of $3000-4000 over the best trade in I was offered. Selling is easy today with online listing sites, carfax etc. 
When negoitating a new car purchase never mention a trade until AFTER final negoitations. 

I also think you should keep your Volvo , until it has at least 150,000 miles on it.


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## dartmouth01 (Dec 2, 2011)

I just went through the process of selling my 2005 G35, and buying a 2007 Silverado diesel and a 30 foot camper, so I had to do some thinking about what to do.  Most things I would point out others have already done so, so I only have a couple other things to mention:

1)  In MA at least, you can get your sales tax reduced if you trade in the car towards another car (or trailer, apparently).  In my case, the rv dealer was willing to offer me close to what I reasonably expected on the open market after I included the tax reduction, so I planned to trade in the G35.  As luck would have it though, someone was interested in the car the day before I was supposed to trade it in, so I sold it it to the private party for a few hundred more.  However, I was very sure that the car would meet their expectations because I took very good care of it and was sure there were no problems. Even as a private seller, there are still lemon laws in MA I would have to contend with if something went wrong with the car soon after purchase, and I would rather not have that hassle over a few hundred bucks.  

2)  When possible, buy used.  My first car out of college was new, and I may never ever buy a new car again.  It hurts to know that your beautiful new car is worth so much less after the first year, and once the "new car feel" goes away, you're still stuck paying the bills.  When I researched buying my second car (05 Toyota Highlander, which is for sale btw!), I looked at factory certified pre-owned, and I would highly recommend those programs to anyone.  The cars are generally picked to be the best of the litter, they usually come with good warranties (usually honored at ANY factory dealer), and usually have other side benefits (the Silverado is a certified preowned and comes with 2 years of oil changes, which if you know diesels, means i get ALOT of oil free!)

3)  If you do plan to sell a car, try to do so within 5 years of its year of manufacture.  The reason I feel this is important is because banks usually only finance cars that are 5-6 years old.  After that, you'll have to find someone who's got cash, and that generally means you will have to take less money (not too many people have $20k saved up, more people will be able to finance it though).  I wish I had known that when selling the G35, because I probably would have tried harder to sell it last year, since I think I would have had more buyers interested in it.  

4)  Do your research on which cars will have the least amount of depreciation.  You can cross reference with average residual values for leases, which is basically a number that dealers will use to calculate how much a a car will depreciate over time in a lease, hence figuring out how much to charge you for a lease.  Most of the least depreciation cars can maintain around 50% of their original value in 5 years, but I think the worst deprection cars can lose up to 80%.  Thats a huge chunk of money you can save if you buy the right vehicle to start.

Overall, unless your needs change or you feel the need to get a new car (I think changing into something new if your heart desires it is a perfectly fine reason!), keeping a used car that is running well is still better financially.  But then again, if you don't do your own work and know you will have to pay for 3-4 big jobs in the near future (timing belt, tires, brakes, paint), it is not such a bad thing to look into a newer model vehicle.


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## Nick (Dec 2, 2011)

Geoff said:


> You are in dreamland.   A 2003 Saab with 170,000 miles on it will go straight to auction.   I'll bet that when you compensate for all those miles looking it up in Galves, it's more like $1,500 to $2,000.   With lemon laws, no dealer would dream of putting a car like that on their used car lot.  You might get $2,500 in a private sale but you'll have every CraigsList wierdo in the world emailing you trying to steal it for $1,000.



No way. The car is fully loaded and looks new. Kbb says 5.5k for private and I know that's high.hell I sold my last vw with 140k for 4500.


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## Nick (Dec 2, 2011)

Geoff said:


> You are in dreamland.   A 2003 Saab with 170,000 miles on it will go straight to auction.   I'll bet that when you compensate for all those miles looking it up in Galves, it's more like $1,500 to $2,000.   With lemon laws, no dealer would dream of putting a car like that on their used car lot.  You might get $2,500 in a private sale but you'll have every CraigsList wierdo in the world emailing you trying to steal it for $1,000.



Also I was talking about private sale


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## hammer (Dec 2, 2011)

Nick said:


> No way. The car is fully loaded and looks new. Kbb says 5.5k for private and I know that's high.hell I sold my last vw with 140k for 4500.


Just for grins I checked my 2001 Highlander's value on KBB...came up with $7400.  Think I'd be lucky if I got half that.


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## marcski (Dec 2, 2011)

I happen to be a fan of new cars.  I had a Honda which I bought used and ended up putting over 210K myself.  (car had over 235k when she died). However, with any type of foreign car, I am very leery of how a prior owner has treated a car.  I would almost rather paythe premium of a new car and have the piece of mind that I am the only one to have driven and more importantly taken care and maintained the vehicle.  I buy a car for two (maybe three) reasons. Fun to drive factor, utility and safety.  I also keep most of my cars for the long term.  Therefore, depreciation doesn't really play a roll in my decision making. 

We lease the wife's mdx...in the process of buying a new one for her she really likes it.  I have 125k on my '06 Audi and she drives like a dream.  I am, however, thinking of getting another Audi.  Perhaps leasing a new A4 in a 6 spd. The car I really want is the S4.  That car is awesome with super comfy and supportive seats. But I was hoping to being down my monthly payment from what I was paying on my old Audi....which is now paid off.  I drive a lot for work so I am thinking of keeping 2 cars on the road for me for a while.     

As fo the OP.  Is the wife happy and content driving the current volvo?  If so keep it for another year or so.  Also, I have my own VAG-COM and my mechanic is an old friend.  So between the two of us, the maintenance on my Audi has been quite reasonable.


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## hammer (Dec 2, 2011)

marcski said:


> As fo the OP.  Is the wife happy and content driving the current volvo?  If so keep it for another year or so.  Also, I have my own VAG-COM and my mechanic is an old friend.  So between the two of us, the maintenance on my Audi has been quite reasonable.


The concern I have with my Volvo long-term is when things do break out of warranty they will be big bucks to fix.  My local independent mechanic closed his shop earlier this year so my only option at this point is the dealer...and of course their rates are on the high side.


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2011)

You guys may be surprised with used car values right now. With the way things are, people are holding on to their cars longer. Economics 101: This has created a shortage of used cars. Hence, values are up a bit. Oh, and cash for clunkers took a number of perfectly good vehicles off the road.


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## Morwax (Dec 2, 2011)

*Depreciation*

I dont think I will ever buy another new car, regardless of my financial situation. HORRIBLE depreciation nowadays makes it equivilant to throwing money out the window. There are always nice clean used cars from people who feel they need new every two. And the majority of the depreciation has been dealt with. Worst case scenario: The transmission falls out and you need to call a tow truck (hasnt happened to me in 20+ years). Still only a fifth of what you will lose in one year in depreciation on a new luxury vehicle.
 I guess if youve got it youve got it.. "A fool and his money are soon parted":beer:


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## andrec10 (Dec 2, 2011)

Morwax said:


> I dont think I will ever buy another new car, regardless of my financial situation. HORRIBLE depreciation nowadays makes it equivilant to throwing money out the window. There are always nice clean used cars from people who feel they need new every two. And the majority of the depreciation has been dealt with. Worst case scenario: The transmission falls out and you need to call a tow truck (hasnt happened to me in 20+ years). Still only a fifth of what you will lose in one year in depreciation on a new luxury vehicle.
> I guess if youve got it youve got it.. "A fool and his money are soon parted":beer:



To each his own....


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I'd go with the XC, then- either keep or new. The Cayenne isn't (well, doesn't have to be) a status symbol car- it is truly a great car to drive. driving back and forth from Boston to Connecticut through all kinds of really shitty weather, my wife never had a problem or felt unsafe. I ran it through some terrain it probably shouldn't have been in, and had no problems- even got over a 3-foot plow berm, down an unplowed steep driveway, and back up it the next day.
> 
> Buying a car because of what the neighbors will say is dumb. Buying a car because it does what you want it to is great. I get angry at most of the Cayenne Turbo or S drivers I see who drive 6 miles an hour and slow to 2 for every curve. Which is most of them.



:lol:

No matter how you use it, it's still a Porsche.  Outside of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley and a few other exotics, a Porsche is the ultimate status symbol car.  How you drive it doesn't change that fact C-ten.

I think it's great that you've been successful enough to afford such a vehicle and I do realize that you can pay similar money for SUVs from more pedestrian brands, but don't kid yourself C-ten, Porsche = status symbol car.


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## hammer (Dec 2, 2011)

Morwax said:


> I dont think I will ever buy another new car, regardless of my financial situation. HORRIBLE depreciation nowadays makes it equivilant to throwing money out the window. There are always nice clean used cars from people who feel they need new every two. And the majority of the depreciation has been dealt with. Worst case scenario: The transmission falls out and you need to call a tow truck (hasnt happened to me in 20+ years). Still only a fifth of what you will lose in one year in depreciation on a new luxury vehicle.
> I guess if youve got it youve got it.. "A fool and his money are soon parted":beer:


Counter argument to that is that the person who unloaded the car after two years (short term lease?) most likely did the bare minimum on maintenance and may have beat up on the car as well, which will result in problems that may not show themselves until you've had the car for several years.  If you want to minimize that risk you go with a CPO car which will be a lot more expensive.

At least with a new car I know it's history (for the most part...dealers can beat up on "new" cars too).


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## snoseek (Dec 2, 2011)

I bought my little Tacoma new. In this case it was actually a better value as I don't really care about features that most want. I basically got to find the one I wanted. I put over half down so the rest is only financed for 24 months. I was able to do that because my last two cars both were little Civics and both went to over 250k. This truck I will likely drive for a long time but if I don't at least I have some decent equity in it. This is why I will always vote to drive the car till the bitter end. It takes a lot of repair bills to equal a 4-500 dollar payment. Like I said, if you're constantly at the shop, find a new brand.


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## Morwax (Dec 2, 2011)

hammer said:


> Counter argument to that is that the person who unloaded the car after two years (short term lease?) most likely did the bare minimum on maintenance and may have beat up on the car as well, which will result in problems that may not show themselves until you've had the car for several years.  If you want to minimize that risk you go with a CPO car which will be a lot more expensive.
> 
> At least with a new car I know it's history (for the most part...dealers can beat up on "new" cars too).


 Ive seen new cars that were just lemons as well. Ive been lucky enough to snag some nice trade ins from wealthy older neighbors whom I know maintain and dont abuse them.
 What is CPO?


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## bobbutts (Dec 2, 2011)

My advice, don't spend 60k
25k - 30k to Subaru gets you a perfect ski vehicle that's reliable and holds it's value well


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## billski (Dec 2, 2011)

Glenn said:


> We tend to drive our vehicles for a long time. My Jeep is around 112k and I'll drive it until the floors Fred Flintstone out.
> 
> 85k doesn't sound all that bad. If you've kept up with it, it'll probably last you a good long while.



We keep our cars for whichever comes first, in this order:

1) The price of average monthly repair bill is greater than a new car payment (regardless of how we pay for it, this is a watermark.)
2) 200K miles
3) 10 years

We have been doing this for 30 years.  We've had a Saab, Toyota Sienna and Avalon and Honda.   

We baby our cars, drive easily and to prescribed maintenance.  If you drive it hard, all bets are off.


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## HD333 (Dec 2, 2011)

Had a talk last night and for now the plan is to hang onto the XC, I told her I'd get it detailed for her.


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## jaja111 (Dec 2, 2011)

Glenn said:


> You guys may be surprised with used car values right now. With the way things are, people are holding on to their cars longer. Economics 101: This has created a shortage of used cars. Hence, values are up a bit. Oh, and cash for clunkers took a number of perfectly good vehicles off the road.



Working in the business, THIS is the primary reason along with reduced supply for economic and natural disaster reasons that it is a seller's market. Cars are not cheap at the moment. 

I also have to comment on KBB. People that believe Kelly blue book or even the NADA guide as being the bible of used car values are sheeple drinking the blue koolaid. While yes they are a guideline for values, they are skewed rather grossly by not only the reasons above but also by the fact they obtain their data from state registrations. So who here is not going to under-report to the DMV the sale price of the used car they purchased? Tax tax tax tax tax. The older the vehicle and higher the mileage the more skewed down the sales figures are. Nick's Saab will not sell for $1500 to $2000 at auction. Currently in western NY, where there aren't even that many Saabs or Saab fans, it would easily take $3500 - $4000 and sell retail at $6k. For the Northeast as a whole this could be $500 more. I know this from being AT the auctions, not speculating.

Besides KBB is a site to buy cars now and its an enormous conflict of interest to true values. 

And as for trading a vehicle in, or rather not trading in, it all depends on your perspective. What is your time worth dealing with asshat offers on your car? It is a royal PIA but indeed sometimes necessary to get the best value, especially if you have a non niche vehicle (i.e. Toyota Corolla). I have a car that across most dealerships would take $16k to $18k for the trade, but the dealership it was purchased at is giving me $22k. Most dealers see an Outback XT as a gas hog battle wagon but the Subaru dealership sees it as a big WRX sleeper and they know of more than a few buyers. Yes, I might be able to get $23k at private party sale but the hassle isn't worth it to me. And btw, fwiw - the private party price in VG condition on the over beloved KBB is $20k on this car. If that was the true value of the car, no dealer in the world would give me $2k over private sale for a trade. KBB is dead.


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## Morwax (Dec 2, 2011)

HD333 said:


> Had a talk last night and for now the plan is to hang onto the XC, I told her I'd get it detailed for her.


 There ya go.. some new rubber and a good detailing shell think shes in a new one.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2011)

billski said:


> We keep our cars for whichever comes first, in this order:
> 
> 1) The price of average monthly repair bill is greater than a new car payment (regardless of how we pay for it, this is a watermark.)
> 2) 200K miles



That has been my criteria for owning vehicles as well.  I am on my 7th car in my lifetime.  

2 have made it to 200K; a Honda Accord and a Ford Explorer

I had an Acura Legend where the transmission went at 165K, which I dumped.  I drove that car very hard, so I blame myself for the transmission going.  

I've had an Audi, a VW and a Subaru all which started to have repair costs approaching mortgage payments after 100K and were quickly dumped.  I am unlikely to purchase those brands in the future.

Current 2007 Hyundai Sonata has 158K on it and has had two minor repair issues, both under warranty.  The car still drives very well.  If it continues to do so after 200K miles, I'm inclined to just keep driving it until something major happens.


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## bvibert (Dec 2, 2011)

Morwax said:


> What is CPO?



Certified Pre-Owned

They're cars that have gone through a dealer's checklist inspection (sometimes pretty extensive) and are certified to meet their standards.  The certification also means that they carry a manufacturers warranty.


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## o3jeff (Dec 2, 2011)

Glenn said:


> You guys may be surprised with used car values right now. With the way things are, people are holding on to their cars longer. Economics 101: This has created a shortage of used cars. Hence, values are up a bit. Oh, and cash for clunkers took a number of perfectly good vehicles off the road.



This and also if you are looking into a car that is a year or 2 old you might want to check new since a lot of manufactures are offering 0% financing and probably easier to beat a dealer around on the price of a new car vs used so it might not be too much more to get a brand new vehicle.


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## jaja111 (Dec 2, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> .........2 have made it to 200K; a Honda Accord and a Ford Explorer............



Ford Exploder with 200k!?! Must have definitely been made on a Wednesday. Good you ditched the Ford, but the Honda had 200k more to go. 

Truthfully, it always amazes me that some known-to-be ultra reliable cars die horrible deaths early and some known-to-be ultra unreliable cars seem to be unbreakable. There will always be the Plymouth K car that made it to half a million miles and the Toyota Corolla that basket cased and was bought back by the dealer under lemon law statutes.


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## hammer (Dec 2, 2011)

Car-related threads always seem to get a lot of responses...or is it that there isn't as much ski-related stuff to discuss...:-?


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## bvibert (Dec 2, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> :lol:
> 
> No matter how you use it, it's still a Porsche.  Outside of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley and a few other exotics, a Porsche is the ultimate status symbol car.  How you drive it doesn't change that fact C-ten.
> 
> I think it's great that you've been successful enough to afford such a vehicle and I do realize that you can pay similar money for SUVs from more pedestrian brands, but don't kid yourself C-ten, Porsche = status symbol car.



I see what c-ten is saying.  If you buy the car because you want/need whatever features it has then it's different than buying the car because the neighbors will be jealous.  One of the benefits to buying a Porsche is the performance, if you're not using the performance then it really is just a status symbol.

If I had the money I'd own nice cars like that too, not to show that I had that kind of money, but because I appreciate nice cars with performance.  I think there is some distinction.


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## o3jeff (Dec 2, 2011)

hammer said:


> Car-related threads always seem to get a lot of responses...or is it that there isn't as much ski-related stuff to discuss...:-?



It's almost like talking about politics!


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## dartmouth01 (Dec 2, 2011)

Good info jaja.  I imagine the high price of steel also pushes up old car prices up too.  I had a friend who just sent a car to the junkyard and got a couple grand for it, just in steel.  Got a few hundred more for the alloy rims.

I know a guy who for about 10 years bought a new car every year.  He paid cash the first year for a new car, and then trade in the car for another new car + cash every year.  He'd wait to get a really good deal on a current model year car, and then trade in the previous car for it for a good deal too.  Ultimately, in 10 years, he calculated he only lost about $15-20k (not including taxes of course) on all the deals.  Considering if he held onto the first car for those 10 years, chances are he'd have also lost almost the same amount in depreciation, he didnt do too bad. Considering he never had to pay for service, it may have even balanced in his favor.  And he got to drive a new car every year.  However, it requires ALOT of patience and research to do it right, its not for the faint of heart.



jaja111 said:


> Working in the business, THIS is the primary reason along with reduced supply for economic and natural disaster reasons that it is a seller's market. Cars are not cheap at the moment.
> 
> I also have to comment on KBB. People that believe Kelly blue book or even the NADA guide as being the bible of used car values are sheeple drinking the blue koolaid. While yes they are a guideline for values, they are skewed rather grossly by not only the reasons above but also by the fact they obtain their data from state registrations. So who here is not going to under-report to the DMV the sale price of the used car they purchased? Tax tax tax tax tax. The older the vehicle and higher the mileage the more skewed down the sales figures are. Nick's Saab will not sell for $1500 to $2000 at auction. Currently in western NY, where there aren't even that many Saabs or Saab fans, it would easily take $3500 - $4000 and sell retail at $6k. For the Northeast as a whole this could be $500 more. I know this from being AT the auctions, not speculating.
> 
> ...


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## o3jeff (Dec 2, 2011)

I like new cars and tend to get one every 1-2 years. I will usually wait till October and grab a leftover off the lot since they are usually willing to deal on them since the new model year cars are on the lot. I don't put a lot of miles on the cars and tend to buy cars with favorable trade in values so it has been working out for me.


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## ctenidae (Dec 2, 2011)

bvibert said:


> I see what c-ten is saying.  If you buy the car because you want/need whatever features it has then it's different than buying the car because the neighbors will be jealous.  One of the benefits to buying a Porsche is the performance, if you're not using the performance then it really is just a status symbol.
> 
> If I had the money I'd own nice cars like that too, not to show that I had that kind of money, but because I appreciate nice cars with performance.  I think there is some distinction.



Exactly my point- thanks for summing it so nicely.

On the used car front, I'm really interested to see what the Hyundai trade in assurance program is going to do. Seems like they're effectively turning a purchase into a lease, since you really will just be paying down the depreciation (presumably they're being somewhat fair on the ending price adn putting it somewhere near where market value will or should be). Trouble is, you'd actually be paying more than if you just leased tha car (purchase payments are higher than lease payments).


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## ctenidae (Dec 2, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> I like new cars and tend to get one every 1-2 years. I will usually wait till October and grab a leftover off the lot since they are usually willing to deal on them since the new model year cars are on the lot. I don't put a lot of miles on the cars and tend to buy cars with favorable trade in values so it has been working out for me.



You're like me, there. I tend to lease, though. Probably shakes out about the same in the end, but I'm lazy and don't want to have to decide when I want to get a new car.


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## dartmouth01 (Dec 2, 2011)

I agree some good financing deals are to be had.  However some of them won't let you take a cash back option if u take the financing.  I was financed for 2.4% from a credit union for the 07 Chevy just bought.  I assume new car rates are even lower,  so it may make more sense to take the cash back and a couple percentage points of interest.  Just have to do the math to figure out which is better for you.




o3jeff said:


> This and also if you are looking into a car that is a year or 2 old you might want to check new since a lot of manufactures are offering 0% financing and probably easier to beat a dealer around on the price of a new car vs used so it might not be too much more to get a brand new vehicle.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 2, 2011)

bvibert said:


> I see what c-ten is saying.  If you buy the car because you want/need whatever features it has then it's different than buying the car because the neighbors will be jealous.  One of the benefits to buying a Porsche is the performance, if you're not using the performance then it really is just a status symbol.
> 
> If I had the money I'd own nice cars like that too, not to show that I had that kind of money, but because I appreciate nice cars with performance.  I think there is some distinction.



Understood and I don't think anything is wrong with that.  However, owning a Porsche, Bentley etc, regardless of the reasoning for owning that car is a billboard stating the driver has a lot of money.  

You don't have to buy something with the intention of flaunting your wealth for it to be a status symbol.  Somethings in life, such as driving a Porche announce your status no matter what.

That's what I'm saying.

Because I "know" Cten and think he's a real down to earth guy and is a driving enthusiast, I don't think he owns a Porsche to say "look at me, I'm wealthy enough to drive a Porsche."  It's money wisely spent for him. 
 However, that doesn't change my perception that many people who drive a Porsche also probably have their initials embroidered on their cashmere undies.  :lol:


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## ctenidae (Dec 2, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> However, that doesn't change my perception that many people who drive a Porsche also probably have their initials embroidered on their cashmere undies.  :lol:



But the cashmere is so comfy!

I totally agree with you on the show-off aspect. Probably Porsche drivers are the worst for it, especially the "cheaper" Boxster and such. There is, though, a really bizarre hard core set of Porsche fans who are just crazy about it. "Enthusiast" doesn't begin to do them justice.

Once you get above a certain price point, unless you're a sports star, I think the "show" portion of it falls off, and it becomes much more "this is a nice car." The CEO of my company is well into the Forbes 500 list and drives a Bentley because he likes the way it looks. There's a story that he was in Florida with his wife and they saw an Aston Martin that his wife thought was really pretty. So they went to a dealership and picked one out. He put down his credit card to buy it outright, and the dealer hesitated, unsure he could take plastic for a $180,000 car. Our CEO said "My name is ________. Google me." His wife drove off with a new car.  That's not showing off, that's just being able to do it. There's a distinction there, too.


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## o3jeff (Dec 2, 2011)

Might be able to get a good deal on a GM, plenty of inventory. Saw this article yesterday
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/gm-channel-stuffing-surges-all-time-record


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## mlctvt (Dec 2, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Understood and I don't think anything is wrong with that.  However, owning a Porsche, Bentley etc, regardless of the reasoning for owning that car is a billboard stating the driver has a lot of money.
> 
> You don't have to buy something with the intention of flaunting your wealth for it to be a status symbol.  Somethings in life, such as driving a Porche announce your status no matter what.
> 
> ...



I can definately see Cten's point. Back in the late 1980s I bought a 2 year old Porsche, Not as a status symbol but because I'm also a car enthusiast, I'm really into sports cars. I hate to drive auto "appliances" .  I autocross and have to own at least 1 sports car at all times. My wife and I just sold our MR2 but we also have 2 turbocharged Subarus and a Miata . All of these cars are all slightly modified for better handling and increased power. Sometime in the future I'm going to buy another Porsche, probably a Cayman S or Boxster S.

The funny thing was when you own a Porsche you get alot of attention from other drivers , some good, some bad. People would sometimes give me the finger for no reason.:roll:
 And on several occasions I had women follow me home (golddiggers? ).


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2011)

jaja111 said:


> Working in the business, THIS is the primary reason along with reduced supply for economic and natural disaster reasons that it is a seller's market. Cars are not cheap at the moment.
> 
> I also have to comment on KBB. People that believe Kelly blue book or even the NADA guide as being the bible of used car values are sheeple drinking the blue koolaid. While yes they are a guideline for values, they are skewed rather grossly by not only the reasons above but also by the fact they obtain their data from state registrations. So who here is not going to under-report to the DMV the sale price of the used car they purchased? Tax tax tax tax tax. The older the vehicle and higher the mileage the more skewed down the sales figures are. Nick's Saab will not sell for $1500 to $2000 at auction. Currently in western NY, where there aren't even that many Saabs or Saab fans, it would easily take $3500 - $4000 and sell retail at $6k. For the Northeast as a whole this could be $500 more. I know this from being AT the auctions, not speculating.
> 
> ...



Excellent post. I was in the business very breifly...but had friends who were in it on a more full time basis. It's always interesting to follow.


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2011)

HD333 said:


> Had a talk last night and for now the plan is to hang onto the XC, I told her I'd get it detailed for her.



Congrats! I'm sure you guys will be happy without a new payment.


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## Glenn (Dec 2, 2011)

Porsche makes some really nice cars/SUVs. As long as I can remember, I've always lusted after the Mid 1980's air cooled turbo 911's. Awesome cars; I love the lines and the engine just sings like no other. Yeah, all my friends wanted Testarosas or Countaches...I wanted the 911. 

Some people buy cars for the image; others for the drive. If I had the means to buy a Porsche, I would. And not for the "look @ me!!!!111" factor, for the driving experience. 

As any good gearhead will do, I'm often on the for sale sites, looking at stuff for sale. You can actually get a decent used Porsche Cayenne for under $30k. Yeah, the upkeep will be some dollars. But I have a feeling if you can spin some wrenches, the cost of ownership wouldn't be all that bad.


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## Geoff (Dec 2, 2011)

ctenidae said:


> I totally agree with you on the show-off aspect. Probably Porsche drivers are the worst for it, especially the "cheaper" Boxster and such. There is, though, a really bizarre hard core set of Porsche fans who are just crazy about it. "Enthusiast" doesn't begin to do them justice.



Yeah, but just about any Porsche "enthusiast" loathes the Cayenne.   The same ones who hated the 924 with rear drum brakes.

And yeah, I've driven a couple of the V8 S models.   My KMart next door neighbor has one.  My friend Patty has one that can be seen in the Sunday River season pay parking lot.  She has a 911, too.   It's a nice car for a Volkswagen (J/K).

I live in the wrong places to ever consider owning one.   In the summer, the nearest dealer is 45 minutes.   In the winter the nearest dealer is at least 2 hours away.

I'm still trying to sort out what I'm going to do when I collapse my winter beater Mountaineer and VW GTI daily driver down to one car.   I like driving "an econobox with a soul" but a GTI is not going to make it out of my KMart driveway on a 3' powder day.   If they imported the new "R" with DSG, I'd consider it.   Having owned a GTI with a 6-speed and another with the DSG system, I much prefer DSG.   I think I can do fine with a little hatchback, fiberglass ski pod, and a receiver hitch for a lawn & garden trailer for Home Depot runs, bike rack, ....


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## dartmouth01 (Dec 2, 2011)

My friend has one of these porsches.  Red, single stage paint, sure is purdy.  But I never understood how much of a knee knocker it was until I went to a show with him.  Holy cow,  talk a about jealousy.  But he's such an enthusiast,  I think it's great he owns it.



Glenn said:


> Porsche makes some really nice cars/SUVs. As long as I can remember, I've always lusted after the Mid 1980's air cooled turbo 911's. Awesome cars; I love the lines and the engine just sings like no other. Yeah, all my friends wanted Testarosas or Countaches...I wanted the 911.
> 
> Some people buy cars for the image; others for the drive. If I had the means to buy a Porsche, I would. And not for the "look @ me!!!!111" factor, for the driving experience.
> 
> As any good gearhead will do, I'm often on the for sale sites, looking at stuff for sale. You can actually get a decent used Porsche Cayenne for under $30k. Yeah, the upkeep will be some dollars. But I have a feeling if you can spin some wrenches, the cost of ownership wouldn't be all that bad.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Dec 5, 2011)

Bentley, Aston Martin, Porsche, Florida, SW Connecticut....hedge fund?


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## ctenidae (Dec 5, 2011)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> Bentley, Aston Martin, Porsche, Florida, SW Connecticut....hedge fund?



Not quite.
And I didn't win the lottery.


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