# Generators



## skijay (Nov 17, 2011)

I am going to get one and leaning towards a portable but the standby option looks appealing but it's expensive.

My current plan:

Purchase a good quality electric start portable 6500 watts (gas) - still researching may go bigger but planning to pay no more than $1,000 for one. My electrician told me 6000 watts minimum for my house. 

Manual transfer switch, 6 circuit breaker, outside outlet to plug the generator in. (I think this is what he told me)  I am having an electrician do this.  This is going to cost between $400 and $600.

The electrician is encouraging me to go with a standby system.  He does not sell them - just installs them. I have already had a propane company give me an estimate of $1,800 to have a tank and the plumbing for a gas fireplace insert that was in 2008, I am sure it is the same if not more to get a hook up.

So I figure $3,000 for a 14,000 watt propane generator, $1,800 +/- for the propane hookup, $700 for the auto transfer switch, $300 for installation of generator.  I'm looking at about close to $6,000 for a standby model.  

Pros of each:
portable -affordable to buy & have installed correctly for use, I can easily store 10 to 15 gallons of gas, generator can be stored safely when not in use.
standby - it's automatic and runs on propane.  Propane tank can be plumbed for a fireplace insert that I have always wanted.  

cons:
portable - just got to make sure it gets started at least 3x a year to keep the carb from gunking up and must keep fresh supply of gas.
standby - cost. Will I ever get my money's worth out of this?  


Any advice?


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## Geoff (Nov 17, 2011)

Why not just buy a cheap 220v manual start generator and plug it into your electric dryer outlet or a new spare 220v outlet?   You have to manually flip your main breaker and hook up the power cord before starting the generator but you don't need a PhD in Electrical Engineering to do that.   I'm sure there are a bajillion generators on Craigslist right now that only have a few hours on them.


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## skijay (Nov 17, 2011)

I know it is a simple method and does work as you are shutting of the main breaker, and all the circuits and then introducing the power through the dryer which is directly to the circuit breaker and then turning on circuits you want to run, furnace, different parts of your home, etc.  

I don't want to be held liable if something went wrong. I would rather pay the money to have a generator (portable) properly feed the circuits & grounded.  If there was ever a malfunction at least I can prove I had a licensed contractor do the work and the generator was used properly.


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## drjeff (Nov 17, 2011)

Having spoken to many real estate agents about this topic, especially as of late, since prolonged power outtages have been a regular topic here in CT lately   A standby system IS a plus if you're selling your house, where you will get your $$ back on that investment.  Having a house all wired for a portable is a nice thing to add to the list of features on a house, but doesn't do a thing for is selling appeal.

I realize that the marketability of a house likely isn't a big thought when making a generator choice, but there is a difference between the two systems


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## skijay (Nov 17, 2011)

I can see the standby would be a selling feature especially if I had it now & listing my house!


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## SkiFanE (Nov 18, 2011)

Geoff said:


> Why not just buy a cheap 220v manual start generator and plug it into your electric dryer outlet or a new spare 220v outlet?   You have to manually flip your main breaker and hook up the power cord before starting the generator but you don't need a PhD in Electrical Engineering to do that.   I'm sure there are a bajillion generators on Craigslist right now that only have a few hours on them.



We lost power for 4 days over Halloween.  Hubby bought a $300 generator, on sale, 4000watts I think.  Got it hooked up through an outlet (not the dryer tho, closest one to back door) and into breaker, then ran wire to heater (couldn't figure out which breaker had the heater, electrician didn't label elect panel very well).  Hubby is an EE.  Long term we need to figure out which breaker goes to heater.  But for this, we got heat, hot water, and 2 outlets in kitchen (with DSL and landline, got 'net connected too).  Totally livable, for $300 and an extension cord.  We never ran generator when not home or when sleeping.  First time we've lost power for more than a few hours in nearly 20 years...don't feel the need to go for broke.


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## mattm59 (Nov 18, 2011)

*about that dryer outlet thing*

basically, what I've read is it's illegal and dangerous. Many forums stating this, this one's typical.
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-c-d-c/119745-generator-plug-dryer-outlet.html


I've had portable generators for 15 years, first a 5500 continuos Generac that became a mouse condo., then I bought a small 3300watt cont.(duro-star, around $300 on Amazon) which got us thru 4 days of Alfred okay. Selling that one tomorrow to a friend, as I bought a 6500 watt cont.(Hyundai HHD7250, around $1100 on Amazon right now, it's a sweetheart) and decided I don't need two. I got the bigger one to be able to keep my back-ups from beeping on the computer when running microwave, stove or other hi wattage stuff (figuring space heaters this winter possibly). I did buy a single circuit transfer switch to wire in the furnace. Beauty of a portable for me, is I used to bring it to my sailboat in the spring to run power tools and to the site when I was doing construction.
I've also built a small (so far) deep cycle battery/solar panel/inverter set up, so I can run TV, fridge, computer etc. overnight w/o having the drone of a motor going. I'm doing a load of laundry off that right now, for the hell of it.

As far as getting your money back with a stand by system...I find that a theoretical question. What kind of market are we looking at here? Bull, bear? Your house may be worth $300,000 one day, a year later it's $190,00, then back up or down, only time knows.


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## Geoff (Nov 19, 2011)

mattm59 said:


> basically, what I've read is it's illegal and dangerous. Many forums stating this, this one's typical.
> http://www.doityourself.com/forum/electrical-c-d-c/119745-generator-plug-dryer-outlet.html
> 
> 
> ...



It is not "illegal" to back feed a generator into your house wiring in a single family home.   I guarantee you can't point to any state that has a statute on the books for a single family home about this.

It's also not "dangerous".   You flip the main breaker.   You flip the breakers you're not using.   You connect the power cord.   You  start the generator.   When the power comes back, you reverse the process.

I'll bet you can find 1000 chainsaw or snow blower disasters for any instance where somebody screws up with a generator.   You'd have to really work at it to kill yourself with a 20 amp generator.


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## Edd (Nov 19, 2011)

Geoff said:


> It is not "illegal" to back feed a generator into your house wiring in a single family home.   I guarantee you can't point to any state that has a statute on the books for a single family home about this.
> 
> It's also not "dangerous".   You flip the main breaker.   You flip the breakers you're not using.   You connect the power cord.   You  start the generator.   When the power comes back, you reverse the process.



I saw Greg mention this recently and didn't see the point to saying anything but since it's come up again...as a rule, backfeeding into a system is simply bad electrical practice.  I used to do electrical work and it should be avoided in my opinion.


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## mattm59 (Nov 19, 2011)

*be safe, and a four step process in the dark ??*

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26640
Also noting on some links about various grounding methods causing leakage.

okay...here's another link...also thinking backfeeding into an outlet could be an issue for other reasons. A 6500 watt generator is putting out 54 amps, a dryer outlet is 30, a typical outlet (as skifan used) is 15. I'm thinking heavy draw could cause a lot of heat and breaker/fuse issues here.

nice link here...Montana...but good info.
http://dma.mt.gov/des/library/genbrochurev3.PDF


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## Geoff (Nov 19, 2011)

Edd said:


> I saw Greg mention this recently and didn't see the point to saying anything but since it's come up again...as a rule, backfeeding into a system is simply bad electrical practice.  I used to do electrical work and it should be avoided in my opinion.



That's totally subjective.   I have an Electrical Engineering degree so I have at least a minor clue about this.


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## mattm59 (Nov 19, 2011)

*engineering*

and reality collide at times.uke:

It's not often a perfect world out there.


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## Edd (Nov 19, 2011)

Geoff said:


> That's totally subjective.   I have an Electrical Engineering degree so I have at least a minor clue about this.



Then you understand that that practice sets the table for an accident if all of the steps you listed aren't followed.  Which is fine since you have an EE degree but you claimed earlier it's not "dangerous".  I"m sure you understand why I would advise against it.


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## Geoff (Nov 19, 2011)

Edd said:


> Then you understand that that practice sets the table for an accident if all of the steps you listed aren't followed.  Which is fine since you have an EE degree but you claimed earlier it's not "dangerous".  I"m sure you understand why I would advise against it.



To stop your car when you're going 55 mph and see a red light, you have to remove your foot from the gas pedal, place it on the brake pedal, and slowly apply pressure until the car comes to a stop.

I'd argue that it's far more dangerous to fail to follow the steps to stop a car at a traffic light than what could potentially go wrong if you forget to flip your main breaker.   The odds are very low that you have a downed wire between your house and the nearest power transformer where a power company lineman grabs the wire and gets a jolt.   If you fail to stop a car at a stop light, you're going to put somebody in the hospital every time.

By the way, you run the exact same risk if you install an active solar system on your roof and "sell" the power back to the electric company.   You don't hear people screaming about the dangers of those systems.   A power company lineman from Wisconsin working in your neighborhood cleaning up downed lines after a huge ice storm or hurricane isn't going to have a clue about your solar system.


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## billski (Nov 19, 2011)

*OT - I stop for EE's*



Geoff said:


> That's totally subjective.   I have an Electrical Engineering degree so I have at least a minor clue about this.



Hey us EE's gotta stick together around here.

Too many people running around the country calling themselves "engineers".    this comment is entirely OT, but I stop for EEs.


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## Geoff (Nov 20, 2011)

billski said:


> Hey us EE's gotta stick together around here.
> 
> Too many people running around the country calling themselves "engineers".    this comment is entirely OT, but I stop for EEs.



Some would consider not stopping a mercy killing.


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## billski (Nov 20, 2011)

Geoff said:


> Some would consider not stopping a mercy killing.


  Are you condoning suicide?


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## FishingEd (Jan 17, 2012)

Got a 5500 watt Generac after the Halloween storm. Going to have it professionally hard wired in but am waiting for the pro (my Dad!) to come and give me a hand with it.

We are on a well so losing power really makes it tough to stay in the house. 
It's one of those things that since I have close to $1k into it (generator+cable+supplies) I sort of want to use it but that wouldn't make sense would it?!


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## gmcunni (Nov 1, 2012)

no power outage during Irene
48 hours outage during Oct snow storm last year
48 hours outage (so far) this storm

i'll be shopping for a generator shortly.  plan to feed the panel in the basement, not sure exactly how yet.


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## o3jeff (Nov 1, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> no power outage during Irene
> 48 hours outage during Oct snow storm last year
> 48 hours outage (so far) this storm
> 
> i'll be shopping for a generator shortly.  plan to feed the panel in the basement, not sure exactly how yet.



Good luck, They are saying by end of Tuesday everyone will have power.

Correct way, transfer switch, temporarily is to backfeed. I know before the storm Costco had a 7500 Generac for $8-900 with electric start. But I am sure everyone will be grabbing generators for the next 2 months when they see them at stores.


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## gmcunni (Nov 1, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Good luck, They are saying by end of Tuesday everyone will have power.
> 
> Correct way, transfer switch, temporarily is to backfeed. I know before the storm Costco had a 7500 Generac for $8-900 with electric start. But I am sure everyone will be grabbing generators for the next 2 months when they see them at stores.




power is back on so i'm not in a super rush but will buy one sooner rather than later.  Yesterday (before my power was back) i was at local HomeDepot and missed one by minutes.  someone had returned unused but another lucky F'er got it before me.


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## dmc (Nov 2, 2012)

All the people in Jersey with generators are out of gas now...

I don't think I can justify a generator...  I'l just hunker down...


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## ScottySkis (Nov 2, 2012)

dmc said:


> All the people in Jersey with generators are out of gas now...
> 
> I don't think I can justify a generator...  I'l just hunker down...





Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2
Mid Hudson's valley and NYC is also running out of gas.


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## JimG. (Nov 2, 2012)

Looking into a standby unit, not going to do anything until next year, don't need to pay premium prices due to temporary generator envy.


Losing power for a few days is bearable, but it's tough, especially with the wife and kids in the house. No TV is not the issue, but no water, no showers, no toilet flushing, no refrigerator, no cooking, no heat is unbearable. 

I don't care about the expense or value it adds to my house, I care about comfort for my family during these emergencies. And that makes it worth the money.


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## hammer (Nov 2, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Looking into a standby unit, not going to do anything until next year, don't need to pay premium prices due to temporary generator envy.
> 
> 
> Losing power for a few days is bearable, but it's tough, especially with the wife and kids in the house. No TV is not the issue, but no water, no showers, no toilet flushing, no refrigerator, no cooking, no heat is unbearable.
> ...


If you don't have town water or gas stove and HW I would understand the need to have some kind of backup generator.  We have town water and natural gas, and our gas fireplace can run without electricity, so when the power is out we have hot water, can cook, and have heat in one room.  Still very inconvenient but we have managed for several days.


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## JimG. (Nov 2, 2012)

hammer said:


> If you don't have town water or gas stove and HW I would understand the need to have some kind of backup generator.  We have town water and natural gas, and our gas fireplace can run without electricity, so when the power is out we have hot water, can cook, and have heat in one room.  Still very inconvenient but we have managed for several days.



On my own in that regard...well water, everything else needs electricity, even our boiler which runs on oil but needs electric to fire.


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## hammer (Nov 2, 2012)

JimG. said:


> On my own in that regard...well water, everything else needs electricity, even our boiler which runs on oil but needs electric to fire.


Sorry about that...sounds like my supervisor's house, she usually has to get a hotel room when she loses power.  She does have NG service so she's planning on getting one of those larger generators that can be tied into a gas line.


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## dmc (Nov 2, 2012)

yeah we have town water(thank you NYC) and gas for the stove and a gas fireplace...


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## JimG. (Nov 2, 2012)

hammer said:


> Sorry about that...sounds like my supervisor's house, she usually has to get a hotel room when she loses power.  She does have NG service so she's planning on getting one of those larger generators that can be tied into a gas line.



No need to be sorry for us...we are fine and only lost power for 2 days. Other than that, no damage.


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## SkiFanE (Nov 2, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Looking into a standby unit, not going to do anything until next year, don't need to pay premium prices due to temporary generator envy.
> 
> 
> Losing power for a few days is bearable, but it's tough, especially with the wife and kids in the house. No TV is not the issue, but no water, no showers, no toilet flushing, no refrigerator, no cooking, no heat is unbearable.
> ...



We bought generator in the middle of last year's October storm (lucky!).  We only have water and landline phone during outages.  Hubby wired generator so we can get oil burner heat and hot water and one outlet in the kitchen - which is where our DSL modem/wireless is plugged in, so had a light, internet, microwave, TV, coffee maker, etc... from that one outlet.  Very bearable.  ON first day of outage I tossed all food in fridge, that was freeing haha!  No reason to generate that.  We're don't have enough frozen food to worry about.

October is bearable.  If it was January...it'd be impossible to survive in our house w/o a generator, pipes would freeze.  In Nov. our house was 49* w/o heat.


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## JimG. (Nov 2, 2012)

SkiFanE said:


> We bought generator in the middle of last year's October storm (lucky!).  We only have water and landline phone during outages.  Hubby wired generator so we can get oil burner heat and hot water and one outlet in the kitchen - which is where our DSL modem/wireless is plugged in, so had a light, internet, microwave, TV, coffee maker, etc... from that one outlet.  Very bearable.  ON first day of outage I tossed all food in fridge, that was freeing haha!  No reason to generate that.  We're don't have enough frozen food to worry about.
> 
> October is bearable.  If it was January...it'd be impossible to survive in our house w/o a generator, pipes would freeze.  In Nov. our house was 49* w/o heat.



Yeah, my real concern is sustained loss of power in the winter for the reasons you've expressed here. 

Freezing pipes would cost me alot more than the cost of professionally installing a good standby generator.


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## gmcunni (Nov 2, 2012)

JimG. said:


> Yeah, my real concern is sustained loss of power in the winter for the reasons you've expressed here.
> 
> Freezing pipes would cost me alot more than the cost of professionally installing a good standby generator.


+1


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## mlctvt (Nov 2, 2012)

Our power just went back on!  exactly 4 days this time 5pm Monday to 5pm Friday. Better than Irene :0) 

We used just 20 gallons of gas for the Generator(Generac GP6500). I had stockpiled 25 gallons but I could have siphoned the two cars that we don't need for day to day if needed too. 
I'm thinking about a standby Genny that runs on Propane and a better transfer switch(whole house/ service entry instead of limited circuits individual switching).
Getting gas around here has never been a problem but we didn't get hit like NJ either. Getting Propane after a disaster can be an issue too and the two tanks I'd have would probably last just 4-5 days.


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## gmcunni (Nov 2, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> We used just 20 gallons of gas for the Generator(Generac GP6500). I had stockpiled 25 gallons but I could have siphoned the two cars that we don't need for day to day if needed too.



glad to hear you are back on the power grid. are you happy with the generac? thinking of the GP5500


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## o3jeff (Nov 2, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> glad to hear you are back on the power grid. are you happy with the generac? thinking of the GP5500


That's the one I have too.


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## gmcunni (Nov 2, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> That's the one I have too.


you like?


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## o3jeff (Nov 2, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> you like?



So far so good, only got 10 hours on it. My aunt was saying that the Generacs rated pretty good in Consumers Reports.


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## severine (Nov 2, 2012)

JimG. said:


> No need to be sorry for us...we are fine and only lost power for 2 days. Other than that, no damage.


Glad to hear that!


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## Skimaine (Nov 2, 2012)

I have had a Generac for 15 years and it has served us well. Still starts easily.


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## severine (Nov 2, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> Good luck, They are saying by end of Tuesday everyone will have power.
> 
> Correct way, transfer switch, temporarily is to backfeed. I know before the storm Costco had a 7500 Generac for $8-900 with electric start. But I am sure everyone will be grabbing generators for the next 2 months when they see them at stores.


Generator installations have been steady in the Simsbury Building Dept since Alfred last year. Record rates. The thing is, if you don't run your generator periodically, it won't work when you need it. Unfortunate thing we have seen, too. Our work generator powers up once a month for maintenance.


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## gmcunni (Nov 2, 2012)

o3jeff said:


> So far so good, only got 10 hours on it. My aunt was saying that the Generacs rated pretty good in Consumers Reports.


my mom gets CR, i'll see if she still has that issue still.


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## mlctvt (Nov 2, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> glad to hear you are back on the power grid. are you happy with the generac? thinking of the GP5500



It's been great. It ran for 5 days straight for Irene and 4 days for Sandy. No problems at all. I did the suggested oil change at 50 hours then every 100 hours. Other than that it's needed nothing. I have 2 friends with GP5500 and they've had similar results. Good US built machines and unlike other manufacturers they build their own OHV engines. 

If I had money to burn I'd get a Honda, but a 6500W Honda would be at least 4-5 times the cost of the Generac possibly more.


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## o3jeff (Nov 2, 2012)

severine said:


> Generator installations have been steady in the Simsbury Building Dept since Alfred last year. Record rates. The thing is, if you don't run your generator periodically, it won't work when you need it. Unfortunate thing we have seen, too. Our work generator powers up once a month for maintenance.


I was finally reading the instructions and it says to run it for a half hour every month with something plugged into it.


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## JimG. (Nov 3, 2012)

severine said:


> Glad to hear that!



We were lucky. No rain to speak of. Alot of wind. Trees falling all night, but none of any note on my land.


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## JimG. (Nov 3, 2012)

Excellent generator intel.


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## o3jeff (Nov 3, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> It's been great. It ran for 5 days straight for Irene and 4 days for Sandy. No problems at all. I did the suggested oil change at 50 hours then every 100 hours. Other than that it's needed nothing. I have 2 friends with GP5500 and they've had similar results. Good US built machines and unlike other manufacturers they build their own OHV engines.
> 
> If I had money to burn I'd get a Honda, but a 6500W Honda would be at least 4-5 times the cost of the Generac possibly more.


From what I read, only the high end Generacs are made here in the US, from reading the Q & A on my GP5500 on Generacs website it is "is manufactured to our specifications by a partner overseas". It is listed as "USA engineered" though.


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## o3jeff (Nov 3, 2012)

The only other advice is that I tend to buy my power equipment at the local sales and service places now since if you ever have a problem with it they put you in the front of the line for service. Might cost a little more but the service is usually worth it.

Example, dropped my chain saw off after work the Friday before this last storm and the guy said will be done in about a week, mentioned that I bought it there and he looks it up and says they would probably have it ready the next day, Monday the latest.

I've had very good luck with both Superior product here in Southignton and Sno-White in Plainville. Other plus is I know that Superior offers free delivery locally on new snow blowers and mowers.


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## Cheese (Nov 3, 2012)

Edd said:


> Then you understand that that practice sets the table for an accident if all of the steps you listed aren't followed.  Which is fine since you have an EE degree but you claimed earlier it's not "dangerous".  I"m sure you understand why I would advise against it.



Can you please set the stage for said, "accident"?

Here's a random example of how it usually works out.  A limb goes down on the power lines and 10 houses lose power.  Of those 10 houses, 5 of them own generators so by some means the main circuit breakers for those homes are switched "OFF".  In the other 5 houses, the main breakers remain in the "ON" position (most people do not throw the main breaker after a power outage).  I somehow forget to throw the main breaker before back feeding my home with a generator.  The generator attempts to power up all 5 houses on the line, the generator breaker trips immediately and nobody gets hurt.

Personally, I throw the main breaker and power the entire panel via a manual transfer switch.  All the sub circuits remain on and I am selective about which home items I use simultaneously.  My 5700W generator will selectively run anything in my home except the electric dryer.  Normally the generator powers the furnace, well pump and refrigerator plus lights and media electronics.  I can further add one other item between the stove, microwave or oven.


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## JimG. (Nov 3, 2012)

Cheese said:


> Can you please set the stage for said, "accident"?
> 
> Here's a random example of how it usually works out.  A limb goes down on the power lines and 10 houses lose power.  Of those 10 houses, 5 of them own generators so by some means the main circuit breakers for those homes are switched "OFF".  In the other 5 houses, the main breakers remain in the "ON" position (most people do not throw the main breaker after a power outage).  I somehow forget to throw the main breaker before back feeding my home with a generator.  The generator attempts to power up all 5 houses on the line, the generator breaker trips immediately and nobody gets hurt.
> 
> Personally, I throw the main breaker and power the entire panel via a manual transfer switch.  All the sub circuits remain on and I am selective about which home items I use simultaneously.  My 5700W generator will selectively run anything in my home except the electric dryer.  Normally the generator powers the furnace, well pump and refrigerator plus lights and media electronics.  I can further add one other item between the stove, microwave or oven.



More excellent intel.

I was wondering how many devices I could plan on being able to use. The setup you have would work great for my house.


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## Edd (Nov 3, 2012)

Cheese said:


> Can you please set the stage for said, "accident"?



I mentioned a possible accident if all of the steps aren't followed, like shutting off the main.  This addresses it somewhat: http://www.qsl.net/kc5qhh/backfeeddangers.pdf

I've got no experience with generating my own power and selling it back to the grid like Geoff mentioned so I don't know how backfeed issues are addressed in those instances.  Perhaps the utility workers are well aware of which residences generate their own juice and they isolate those sources when they have to work on nearby lines.


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## mattm59 (Nov 4, 2012)

I have a generator (Hyundai 7250) and like it a lot. Quieter than the generacs by a wide margin. My main input to this thread is that I added deep cycle batteries, a 50 amp charger, small solar panel (60 watt so far), and an inverter. This allows overnight/early morning furnace, fridge, computer, lights, TV etc. without starting the genny. Nice to start a day without power off quietly.


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## dmc (Nov 4, 2012)

I was thinking if i did this i'd get a generator that runs on propane so I can store the cans and not have to worry about storing gas for long periods of time..

Any difference between the 2?   Would be nice if i could also use it to power my band at outdoor parties too....


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## Cheese (Nov 4, 2012)

Edd said:


> I mentioned a possible accident if all of the steps aren't followed, like shutting off the main.  This addresses it somewhat: http://www.qsl.net/kc5qhh/backfeeddangers.pdf



Lol .. that pdf is actually amusing.

1. Islanding?  My generator circuit breaker will pop instantly from the inrush current of trying to power up multiple houses.  Inrush is serious enough that the utility companies themselves have concerns.  

2. 220V out of phase would generate a large load or short circuit.  A circuit breaker will trip under this condition. 

3. This is just basic electrical safety.  The same danger exists to us if we open up any equipment or electrical panels that are energized.

4. Circuit breakers are not back feed compatible?  We do know we're talking about alternating current here, right?  We're also talking about a bi-metal sensor that triggers due to heat not any sort of electron directional flow sensor.

5. The dryer breaker is 30 amps so if there are other circuits on the dryer circuit they've always been improperly wired and tied to a 30 amp breaker.

 6. When back feeding a panel, all the 15 and 20 amp sub circuit breakers are still functioning normally.

I'll admit it's best to be careful when working with electricity, but the link provided does not offer credible reasons not to back feed.


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## Edd (Nov 4, 2012)

All I'm suggesting is that the generator be hooked up in the recommended methods  in accordance with code. Yes the link is goofy but that link is not the sole reason you shouldn't backfeed. Yes, there is more than one way to do it. Again, its considered a bad electrical practice.  That's all.


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## Cheese (Nov 4, 2012)

Edd said:


> All I'm suggesting is that the generator be hooked up in the recommended methods  in accordance with code. Yes the link is goofy but that link is not the sole reason you shouldn't backfeed. Yes, there is more than one way to do it. Again, its considered a bad electrical practice.  That's all.



:beer:


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## MR. evil (Nov 4, 2012)

FWIW - back feeding from a generator through the drier outlet, or any outlet for that matter with an extension coord with two male ends (also known as a suicide cord in the electrical biz) violates the NEC (National Electric Code).

In the 99 NEC Code, it is 410-56 (g). [Later versions may have changed the numbering.]
"Attachment plugs shall be installed so tht their prongs, blades, or pins are not energized unless inserted into an energized receptacle. No receptacle shall be installed so as to require an energized attachment plug as its source of supply."

If your state has officially adopted the NEC as the official state electrical code, than the NEC is a law in that state, thus making it illegal to intentionally disregard it. Additionally CL&P is a client of mine, talked to a few of my contacts over there last year after the November storm about back feeding. I was informed by everyone there I spoke with that if CL&P catches you back feeding from a generator they will disconnect your house from the grid and won't reconnect it until you install a transfer switch and they verify the installation.


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## JimG. (Nov 4, 2012)

mattm59 said:


> I have a generator (Hyundai 7250) and like it a lot. Quieter than the generacs by a wide margin. My main input to this thread is that I added deep cycle batteries, a 50 amp charger, small solar panel (60 watt so far), and an inverter. This allows overnight/early morning furnace, fridge, computer, lights, TV etc. without starting the genny. Nice to start a day without power off quietly.



Where is your solar panel? I would have no choice other than putting it on my roof.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm looking for some help wiring a Generac GP7500E. 

I am not looking to backfeed into my home's electrical system using a "suicide cable", however wiring this up according to NEC in 3 days is not going to be possible. I need a short term plan using materials that are available. Right now, transfer switches and interlock kits are all sold out in my area. 

My electrical panel is an 100 Amp 120/240 volt Murray with a main disconnect, and all of the slots are already full.  Have 2 Two 20 amp single pole breakers and I will use these to free up the top right two slots in my panel. In the two opened slots, I will install a 30 Amp two pole 240v breaker. That is the easy part. 

The connection on the generator side is a L14-30 outlet, and I have 1 L14-30 male twist lock connector (got the last one at my Home Depot yesterday). The only 30 Amp cable I could get is 10/3, and the generator will sit about 50 feet away from the electrical panel.   *Can I use this cable to connect the generator to the electrical panel at 240V?*  How does that get wired up on both ends (color to color)?  I understand that I can not have both the main and generator breakers closed at the same time and the dangers involved.


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## ctenidae (Nov 5, 2012)

Since we have to have all of our mechanicals and appliances replaced now, I think we're going to look into having a transfer switch installed. Better than running extension cords all over the house...


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## mattm59 (Nov 5, 2012)

Where is your solar panel? I would have no choice other than putting it on my roof.



it's next to the patio behind the house. South facing. Unfortunately (fortunately??) I have a lot of trees that block direct sun for more than a few hours a day, but it keeps things topped off. I can run about 2-3 loads of wash off this a week generally, then if a storms coming I plug in the charger to top things off.
pic here
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2508410830094366337CNRKjM


and here's to those following code . Saying an article is silly, then responding with "well, this will pop, or that will shut off, or the other thing will trip" kind of ain't how I want to go through a situation. :lol:


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## JimG. (Nov 5, 2012)

mattm59 said:


> Where is your solar panel? I would have no choice other than putting it on my roof.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice.

I'm surrounded by trees which keeps cooling costs down. Not good for solar power or sattelite.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 5, 2012)

RootDKJ said:


> I'm looking for some help wiring a Generac GP7500E.
> 
> I am not looking to backfeed into my home's electrical system using a "suicide cable", however wiring this up according to NEC in 3 days is not going to be possible. I need a short term plan using materials that are available. Right now, transfer switches and interlock kits are all sold out in my area.
> 
> ...



So the answer to my question is yes and no.  Yes I can use the 10/3 to connect the genny, but only at 120V, so it would only energize half the circuits.  Luckily for me, I was able to find 10/4 cable today.


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## severine (Nov 5, 2012)

MR. evil said:


> FWIW - back feeding from a generator through the drier outlet, or any outlet for that matter with an extension coord with two male ends (also known as a suicide cord in the electrical biz) violates the NEC (National Electric Code).
> 
> In the 99 NEC Code, it is 410-56 (g). [Later versions may have changed the numbering.]
> "Attachment plugs shall be installed so tht their prongs, blades, or pins are not energized unless inserted into an energized receptacle. No receptacle shall be installed so as to require an energized attachment plug as its source of supply."
> ...


Yup, you're supposed to have a transfer switch. This is an excerpt from the city of Southington (CT) website, but code is code throughout the state:



> [h=3]Generator Safety[/h]To avoid the accumulation of deadly carbon monoxide, only use a generator outdoors. Never use a generator indoors, in an attached garage, a basement, or a crawl space. Avoid using a generator in a partially enclosed inhabited space, even if it is ventilated; opening doors and windows or using fans will not prevent carbon monoxide build-up. If placing it outdoors, make sure the generator is far from a home's doors, windows and vents.
> 
> In addition, the storm has led to an increasing number of customers using generators to power their homes and businesses. CL&P reminds customers that if a generator is installed incorrectly to a home's wiring, it can cause power to "backfeed," or flow back into the power lines, creating a dangerous situation for the public and for our line crews who may be working nearby. To avoid this situation, have a qualified electrician connect the generator with a transfer switch, so that it is not connected directly to your home’s wiring.
> 
> ...




Zoning gets involved to make sure your generator is installed meeting setback requirements, so your neighbors don't get pissed about the noise.


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## Geoff (Nov 5, 2012)

severine said:


> Zoning gets involved to make sure your generator is installed meeting setback requirements, so your neighbors don't get pissed about the noise.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]



What?   This is my big chance to get even for all those leaf blowers.


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## gmcunni (Nov 5, 2012)

so backfeeding is like speeding? it is illegal, increases risk to those around you but everyone is doing it.


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## Geoff (Nov 6, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> so backfeeding is like speeding? it is illegal, increases risk to those around you but everyone is doing it.



It's not illegal.   The most the electric company can do is put you off the grid until you either get rid of your generator or install a transfer switch.   I don't see how they could ever detect it since their view ends at the meter on the outside of the house.

It ain't rocket science to flip the main breaker before starting your generator.   I know tons of people who backfeed using an "electric range" outlet in their garage.  For something you almost never use, it's tough to justify a $1500 electrician bill to hook up your $750 Home Depot special portable generator.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 6, 2012)

http://www.interlockkit.com/


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## gmcunni (Nov 6, 2012)

seems pretty basic and simple to setup the manual transfer switch (of course the video makes it look easy).  tho it makes backfeeding seem more attractive in that you power the whole panel and control which circuits work dynamically rather than the limit the switch puts on which circuits are live during blackout.


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## o3jeff (Nov 6, 2012)

Might also want to check with your insurance company to see if they will cover generators and damage if it was found you were backfeeding the house without a switch in case of fire, etc. Would be pretty stupid to save $1k on one of the biggest investments you'll make.


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## xwhaler (Nov 6, 2012)

RootDKJ said:


> http://www.interlockkit.com/



+ 1   This is what my Dad and I installed in my house last year


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## JimG. (Nov 6, 2012)

This is all great info...I want to thank all you guys for posting this.

It would have taken me days to research all this but thanks to you all I have a good idea of what I need to do and all I had to do is read this thread.


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## hammer (Nov 6, 2012)

If you have a Prius you can try using it as a backup generator...

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Toyota-Prius-As-a-Backup-Generator


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## SKIQUATTRO (Nov 6, 2012)

I scored an older Kawasaki 3000w genny on Friday afternoon before the store via Craigslist.  Owner is an electrician and it started in 1 pull and was work-horse for the past 6 days....i ran ext cords (4 outlets) 
1. dedicated cord to fridge
2. dedicated cord to my gas furnace (snipped off the end of the cord and spliced into the emrg shut off)
3.cord to Verizon box, tv, cable box, lamp
4. cord to bedroom tv, lamp, computer/router/wifi

was good on gas, ended up siphoning gas from my buddies boat which has 200 gallons in the tank....


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## severine (Nov 6, 2012)

If you install without a permit, you're already doing it illegally. If you install with a permit, the building official will not sign off on it unless you use a transfer switch. I think that pretty much covers it.

o3jeff brings up an excellent point. We get calls all the time to verify if permits were pulled for projects in homes, the most menial stuff, whether the person is refinancing, shopping for new insurance, renewing insurance, or selling. They nitpick a lot these days.


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## gmcunni (Nov 6, 2012)

severine said:


> If you install without a permit, you're already doing it illegally.


installing a manual transfer switch requires a permit?

what level of work requires a permit ?


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## severine (Nov 6, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> installing a manual transfer switch requires a permit?
> 
> what level of work requires a permit ?


Technically, any electrical work requires a permit.

If you are the homeowner living in a single- or two-family, you can do the work yourself, but you're supposed to pull an electrical permit with the Building Department and have an official sign off on your work.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Nov 6, 2012)

My on/off switch just broke, i can start the genny, but have to pull the spark plug to shut it off....how easy is it to replace the switch?  similar to this


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## RootDKJ (Nov 6, 2012)

severine said:


> If you install without a permit, you're already doing it illegally.



Who is the victim?


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## severine (Nov 6, 2012)

You. When your house burns down and insurance says they won't cover it. 

I work in the Planning/Land Use and Building Departments. Before I stayed home with my kids for 5 years, I worked in the Assessor's Office for 8 years. Sorry, I'm a goody-two-shoes.


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## gmcunni (Nov 6, 2012)

RootDKJ said:


> Who is the victim?





severine said:


> You. When your house burns down and insurance says they won't cover it.



the person who buys your house, if you don't burn it down.


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## o3jeff (Nov 7, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> installing a manual transfer switch requires a permit?
> 
> what level of work requires a permit ?



Pretty much everything needs a permit..... When I put my pellet stove in a few years ago I got a permit, when the building inspector came he had no idea what he was looking at as far as the install went. I had to tell him how I vented it and show him proof what I did was ok.


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## wa-loaf (Nov 9, 2012)

For when gas gets hard to get:

http://io9.com/5958887/oh-this-just...africa-who-invented-a-urine+powered-generator


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## tree_skier (Nov 13, 2012)

You can just ground the plug.  Take a rubber handle screwdriver and touch the metal parts of the plug and engine 



[QUOT

E=SKIQUATTRO;733403]View attachment 6815My on/off switch just broke, i can start the genny, but have to pull the spark plug to shut it off....how easy is it to replace the switch?  similar to this[/QUOTE]


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## tree_skier (Nov 13, 2012)

severine said:


> Technically, any electrical work requires a permit.
> 
> If you are the homeowner living in a single- or two-family, you can do the work yourself, but you're supposed to pull an electrical permit with the Building Department and have an official sign off on your work.




Not in my town in Vermont.  The only permit required is for septic work and that is a state permit.  You may need other state permits, like act 250, but there are none for electric, building a garage putting up a tar paper shack, etc..


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## Geoff (Nov 13, 2012)

tree_skier said:


> Not in my town in Vermont.  The only permit required is for septic work and that is a state permit.  You may need other state permits, like act 250, but there are none for electric, building a garage putting up a tar paper shack, etc..



You need to look at state law.   Among other things, for a multi-family or condo in Vermont, you can't touch the electrical at all and have to do it with a licensed electrician with a permit.   That includes really basic things like replacing a dimmer switch or an electrical outlet.


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 13, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> For when gas gets hard to get:
> 
> http://io9.com/5958887/oh-this-just...africa-who-invented-a-urine+powered-generator



You may have to stock up on water though to make sure your pissing enough to keep the tank full


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## skiNEwhere (Nov 13, 2012)

Serious question though. The house where I live now loses power 3-4 times a month due to very high winds, sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes for a few hours. What would be the best kind of generator to get. I would prefer a standby, but I'm a little unsure of how they work. If I lose power, does the generator "notice", and automatically boot up?


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## Kerovick (Nov 14, 2012)

Standby generators will notice the power is off and start itself.  They are ALOT more expensive than portable generators though.  like 3 or 4 times as much.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Nov 14, 2012)

my neighbor has a natrual gas standby, within seconds of the power going out, that thing kicked right in, a nice quiet hum and shut off 6 days later when power was restored.  Will definatly add value to your home (resale) and worth the investment if you are in an area that loses power often.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 14, 2012)

So what's everyone's scheduled maintenance plan for their gennys?  

How often will you start it?
How often will you load bank it?
How long will you let it run (w/ or w/o load)?


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## mlctvt (Nov 14, 2012)

RootDKJ said:


> So what's everyone's scheduled maintenance plan for their gennys?
> 
> How often will you start it?
> How often will you load bank it?
> How long will you let it run (w/ or w/o load)?



I start and run my Generac GP6500 every 3-4 months. On recommendation of a local repair shop I use 2x the normal amount of Stabil. They said this helps with the ethanol problems due to the 10% ethanol that is in today's gas. It's very corrosive and is causes all kinds of problems with small engines. You could also get the new special Stabil created for ethanol (blue type). 
I run the generator for 5-10 minutes unloaded. 
I close the gas shutoff valve and let the machine stall, this lessens the amount of gas left in the carburator bowl. 

Always store any gas engine with the shutoff valve closed. 

If the gas in the Generator tank is over 6 months old, I drain it and use it in other machines like my lawn tractor.


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## RootDKJ (Nov 14, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> I start and run my Generac GP6500 every 3-4 months. On recommendation of a local repair shop I use 2x the normal amount of Stabil. They said this helps with the ethanol problems due to the 10% ethanol that is in today's gas. It's very corrosive and is causes all kinds of problems with small engines. You could also get the new special Stabil created for ethanol (blue type).
> I run the generator for 5-10 minutes unloaded.
> I close the gas shutoff valve and let the machine stall, this lessens the amount of gas left in the carburator bowl.
> 
> ...



I think I'm going to drain my tank this weekend, but if I was going to keep fuel in there, I'd 2X the Stabil also.


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## Puck it (Nov 14, 2012)

Just install one of these and live off the grid.


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## skijay (Nov 17, 2012)

When I had a new pool installed 10 yrs ago, the pole & receptacle that had been used for the AG pool's pump was converted to an outlet. It is a dedicated line to the circuit breaker box. New pool has all new wiring, new circuit breaker and a timer off of the breaker box. So I have an outlet outside that's not used and a nice level concrete pad. I'm wondering if the receptacle outside can be converted to the generator's input receptacle and have the wire go into the transfer switch. I'd save some money on the job if that existing wiring can be used. It's in conduit, buried and was used for a 3/4 hp pool pump. It was inspected back in 1987, I got all of the paperwork from the original owner.


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## bvibert (Nov 18, 2012)

skijay said:


> When I had a new pool installed 10 yrs ago, the pole & receptacle that had been used for the AG pool's pump was converted to an outlet. It is a dedicated line to the circuit breaker box. New pool has all new wiring, new circuit breaker and a timer off of the breaker box. So I have an outlet outside that's not used and a nice level concrete pad. I'm wondering if the receptacle outside can be converted to the generator's input receptacle and have the wire go into the transfer switch. I'd save some money on the job if that existing wiring can be used. It's in conduit, buried and was used for a 3/4 hp pool pump. It was inspected back in 1987, I got all of the paperwork from the original owner.



How many amps is the breaker on that circuit? What size generator do you plan on getting?


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## skijay (Nov 18, 2012)

It's now on a 15AMP. I think it was a 20AMP circuit and it was removed / replaced when the electrician did the wiring for the new circuit for the pool pump. Thats on a 20AMP and has moved down in location in the breaker box.  It would be great if the electrician could disconnect it and use that wire as the generator "in" on the transfer switch. 

 I'd use 5000 or 6000 watt generator.


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## mlctvt (Nov 18, 2012)

skijay said:


> It's now on a 15AMP. I think it was a 20AMP circuit and it was removed / replaced when the electrician did the wiring for the new circuit for the pool pump. Thats on a 20AMP and has moved down in location in the breaker box.  It would be great if the electrician could disconnect it and use that wire as the generator "in" on the transfer switch.
> 
> I'd use 5000 or 6000 watt generator.



Check what wire size is used there. A 20amp 120VAC circuit is probably using only 12ga wire. You'll likely need 10ga for 5000- 6000 watt Generator (30Watt 240VAC) especially if there is any distance involved between the panel and the pole.


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## bvibert (Nov 19, 2012)

mlctvt said:


> Check what wire size is used there. A 20amp 120VAC circuit is probably using only 12ga wire. You'll likely need 10ga for 5000- 6000 watt Generator (30Watt 240VAC) especially if there is any distance involved between the panel and the pole.



Yes, I doubt the gauge is big enough, not to mention it's probably missing a conductor. The generators I've seen in that size range have a 240V output that require 3 conductors plus ground. Assuming what's there it's a 120V circuit it will only have 2 conductors plus ground.


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## skijay (Nov 19, 2012)

Thanks for the info.  I didn't even think about the 3 conductors.  That could be the reason why the electrician never suggested placing the generator on the pad.  He was going to put the receptacle in a weatherized box attached to the house.  I'll have him check the wire just to make sure when he comes out, just in case.


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