# Keep Killington Open Longer



## andyzee (Apr 4, 2011)

Skied Killington yesterday, definitely a to top 10 day. Conditions were so good, we didn't stop for lunch, and we couldn't leave until closing. Outer Limits has been the best it's been all year, Needles was great, now those two areas are closed. Killington has announce a May 1st date as closing, but looks like the snow this year may last much longer than that. As a result I started a Facebook page in hopes of convincing them to go longer, If interested check it out. please be nice and civil just let them know if you are interested in April/May skiing: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Keep-Killington-Open/164020750322652?sk=wall


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## mondeo (Apr 4, 2011)

I'd rather have Bear open a week longer than Superstar open a week longer, but anything would be good.


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## andyzee (Apr 4, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I'd rather have Bear open a week longer than Superstar open a week longer, but anything would be good.



Both good, Superstar until the end of May is just tradition that should not be messed with.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 4, 2011)




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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


>


 
+ 1.


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## andyzee (Apr 4, 2011)

May be a dud may not, but you have to try.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 4, 2011)

Just take your money to the places that want it ....


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## dmc (Apr 4, 2011)

andyzee said:


> May be a dud may not, but you have to try.



yup... It would be nice...


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## Nick (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm game


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## andyzee (Apr 4, 2011)

Nick said:


> I'm game



You da man!

Killington has had a long standing tradition of being open to Memorial Day, sometimes into June. New company took over, bean counters took over and started closing early. I can understand this from a financial stand point. However, when you look at all the fresh snow out there, and there is tons, it's painful to think they will not be open longer than May 1st. Figure it doesn't hurt to let them know that there is interest in skiing past May 1st.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2011)

andyzee said:


> You da man!
> 
> Killington has had a long standing tradition of being open to Memorial Day, sometimes into June. New company took over, bean counters took over and started closing early. I can understand this from a financial stand point. However, when you look at all the fresh snow out there, and there is tons, it's painful to think they will not be open longer than May 1st. Figure it doesn't hurt to let them know that there is interest in skiing past May 1st.


 
Well....

ASC started the demise of late opening by cutting back little by little every season.  So this has been, unfortunately, a slow death.


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## powbmps (Apr 4, 2011)

Can't hurt to try.


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## TheBEast (Apr 4, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


>



+2!!!

Should be interesting.....where's HS when you need him!


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## bigbob (Apr 4, 2011)

Since the ski business is so dependant on the weather, you have to make hay when the sun shines! The big dollars have been spent making the snow, perhaps if they spent some small dollars on radio ads down in the flatlands now, people would know that the Beast is still open and it would be successful financially for them.


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## frankm938 (Apr 4, 2011)

one more wknd on OL would be nice.  even if they only spun the lifts and didnt open the lodge. 
hope this works, in not ill be doing shuttle runs this wknd


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## andyzee (Apr 4, 2011)

Not too bad, up to 72 likes so far...


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## Nick (Apr 4, 2011)

While your at it make sure you guys like AlpineZone to! 

http://www.facebook.com/alpinezn


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## andyzee (Apr 4, 2011)

Nice, just hit 100 likes!!!


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## Highway Star (Apr 5, 2011)

Bump.......


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## neil (Apr 6, 2011)

I was just looking at the Killington webcams....Bear is really closed? That is mind boggling. There is so much snow on it! Why don't they just open it at weekends?


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## skiadikt (Apr 6, 2011)

the thing the really doesn't make sense is that bear was as crowded as it's been all season. sure it was partially due to the bmmc, but with all that snow, do they really think they're gonna go to zero in week. no one's gonna show? it's madness. all they need to do is run the skye peak quad. one lift.


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## 2knees (Apr 6, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> the thing the really doesn't make sense is that bear was as crowded as it's been all season. sure it was partially due to the bmmc, but with all that snow, do they really think they're gonna go to zero in week. no one's gonna show? it's madness. all they need to do is run the skye peak quad. one lift.



longest lines i found all weekend were the spq and the bear quad.  everything else except the K1 was ski on.

btw, that thing effin sucks when they pack 8 in there.  I was ready to jump out halfway up.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 6, 2011)

2knees said:


> longest lines i found all weekend were the spq and the bear quad.  everything else except the K1 was ski on.
> 
> btw, that thing effin sucks when they pack 8 in there.  I was ready to jump out halfway up.



You need sharper elbows.


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## mediamogul (Apr 6, 2011)

Bear is definitely the place to be in the spring. It was wall to wall last weekend and they got more snow this week. We aren't talking giant expenses here.


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## andyzee (Apr 6, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> the thing the really doesn't make sense is that bear was as crowded as it's been all season. sure it was partially due to the bmmc, but with all that snow, do they really think they're gonna go to zero in week. no one's gonna show? it's madness. all they need to do is run the skye peak quad. one lift.


 
With snow they have this year, they should keep Bear open until May 1, rest of the mountain until Memorial day. Not sure what the number is now as I'm in work and they block Facebook, but the Keep Killington Open page is not doing bad. Last check it was at about 250


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## wa-loaf (Apr 6, 2011)

OK, I liked your page ... If they were open late I might try to make a trip up there in May sometime.


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## andyzee (Apr 6, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> OK, I liked your page ... If they were open late I might try to make a trip up there in May sometime.


 

Thanks. Alot of folks have also been complaining on Killingtons Facebook page. Hope to get at least 500 by end of the week. If we can get that, then the next step is to point this all out to John Cummings, Powdr's CEO. I know it''s all pretty obvious, but you never know what a person that high up is aware of.


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## Riverskier (Apr 6, 2011)

Hope they stay open as long as possible and if I were on Face Book I would like your page.

That said, I think a lot of people are getting a little over zealous about how long the snow will hold out. Sure the snowpack is amazing right now, and May 1st seems like a pretty safe bet for most areas this year, but things can change very fast this time of year.


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## 2knees (Apr 6, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> , but things can change very fast this time of year.



like in the 70's next week?  which is what they are calling for.


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## andyzee (Apr 6, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> Hope they stay open as long as possible and if I were on Face Book I would like your page.
> 
> That said, I think a lot of people are getting a little over zealous about how long the snow will hold out. Sure the snowpack is amazing right now, and May 1st seems like a pretty safe bet for most areas this year, but things can change very fast this time of year.


 
You are correct and if that were to happen and they closed, there would be nothing to complain about. But, there is plenty of snow at Bear and Needles areas and they closed those. They have already announced a May 1st closing without know what conditions will be. In the past, under lesser condtions, they had no problem staying open well into May


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## Riverskier (Apr 6, 2011)

andyzee said:


> You are correct and if that were to happen and they closed, there would be nothing to complain about. But, there is plenty of snow at Bear and Needles areas and they closed those. They have already announced a May 1st closing without know what conditions will be. In the past, under lesser condtions, they had no problem staying open well into May



"In the past, under lesser condtions, they had no problem staying open well into May" We have no idea what the conditions will be like going in to May. That was the whole point of my post. A few strings of 70 degree days and/or a few rain storms and things could go very fast. OR a few big snow storms and the mountain could be 100% covered. I just think people in general are being a bit quick to assume the snow is going to be around well into May based on base depths now, when things can change very quickly.

Otherwise I agree completely with what you are saying. It is unforunate for K skiers that they are setting a closing date and not staying open as long as conditions allow.


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## mediamogul (Apr 6, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> "In the past, under lesser condtions, they had no problem staying open well into May" We have no idea what the conditions will be like going in to May. That was the whole point of my post. A few strings of 70 degree days and/or a few rain storms and things could go very fast. OR a few big snow storms and the mountain could be 100% covered. I just think people in general are being a bit quick to assume the snow is going to be around well into May based on base depths now, when things can change very quickly.
> 
> Otherwise I agree completely with what you are saying. It is unforunate for K skiers that they are setting a closing date and not staying open as long as conditions allow.



Not to mention they used to have 20 feet of manmade snow piled up on Superstar by the end of April.


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## Riverskier (Apr 6, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> Not to mention they used to have 20 feet of manmade snow piled up on Superstar by the end of April.



Exactly. Building a glacier is the only way you can really plan to ski well into May. Otherwise it is really up to mother nature.


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## bobbutts (Apr 6, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> Not to mention they used to have 20 feet of manmade snow piled up on Superstar by the end of April.



not sure if they were being truthful, but they used to advertise 30 feet, not 20
I remember a few times in the 90's where the pile was taller than the chairlift at some points on the trail


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## AMBR (Apr 6, 2011)

I added my "like". Heading up next weekend and wanted to cry when I heard Bear was closed. Well, snivel a bit maybe. I was looking forward to soft, monstrous OL bumps.


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## mediamogul (Apr 6, 2011)

bobbutts said:


> not sure if they were being truthful, but they used to advertise 30 feet, not 20
> I remember a few times in the 90's where the pile was taller than the chairlift at some points on the trail



I was young then and the superstar iceberg seem enough to sink the titanic. I remember people used to take off their skis and hike it.


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## Highway Star (Apr 7, 2011)

Bumps.......


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## powbmps (Apr 7, 2011)

I heard little Mt. Abram in Maine is staying open until May 1st.  Killington can't even beat them.  Real beastly.

:razz:


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## Nick (Apr 7, 2011)

Good job on that FB page, that thing exploded.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 7, 2011)

Nick said:


> Good job on that FB page, that thing exploded.



Are you coming up this weekend? AndyZee should be rocking the house.


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## AMBR (Apr 7, 2011)

My husband sent me an email at work today that just said, "Whatever you do, don't look at the Killington webcams." Of course I did. Dammit, now I can't get anything done.


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## Nick (Apr 7, 2011)

AMBR said:


> My husband sent me an email at work today that just said, "Whatever you do, don't look at the Killington webcams." Of course I did. Dammit, now I can't get anything done.



Saying not to do something always results in doing that one thing. 

Don't think of a brown cow. What are you thinking of?


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## mediamogul (Apr 7, 2011)

Anybody have the specifics about transportation out of Bear for the weekend. Saw it posted on the Facebook page. How much is it per ride? How many people can fit in the van at a time?

"Leon's Transportation will be running at K as long as the mountain is open! Call if you need a ride from "anywhere" Fri/Sat/Sun in the Killington region ;-) 802-345-6917."

"Top of OL has cell service. You can txt us from top of Superstar on your way to other points on the mtn.. Also, we will be traveling all the access roads on a regular basis picking up people in need."

Would love one more run down OL. Willing to pay a few bucks for it.


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## andyzee (Apr 7, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> Anybody have the specifics about transportation out of Bear for the weekend. Saw it posted on the Facebook page. How much is it per ride? How many people can fit in the van at a time?
> 
> "Leon's Transportation will be running at K as long as the mountain is open! Call if you need a ride from "anywhere" Fri/Sat/Sun in the Killington region ;-) 802-345-6917."
> 
> ...



You could try calling the number above 

But here you go:

Leons Transportation We are charging $20, unlimited for the day or $5 per run. Txt the number above if you need to be picked up somewhere on Sat/Sun.


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## powbmps (Apr 7, 2011)

That is awesome.



andyzee said:


> You could try calling the number above
> 
> But here you go:
> 
> Leons Transportation We are charging $20, unlimited for the day or $5 per run. Txt the number above if you need to be picked up somewhere on Sat/Sun.


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## andyzee (Apr 7, 2011)

Less than 4 day, have over 400 likes, not bad..:razz:


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## o3jeff (Apr 8, 2011)

How many more do you need before they stay open longer?


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## ALLSKIING (Apr 8, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> How many more do you need before they stay open longer?



20k


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## andyzee (Apr 8, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> How many more do you need before they stay open longer?









1,000,000


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## drjeff (Apr 8, 2011)

o3jeff said:


> How many more do you need before they stay open longer?



How many likes will show up this weekend, and next weekend, and the weekend after that and spend $$ in the form of lift tickets and F & B????  Facebook likes are one thing, but healthy positive revenue on the books speaks much louder - so get off FB and get out on the hill, buy a burger and a beer and really show the folks at K what you want!


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## roark (Apr 8, 2011)

drjeff said:


> How many likes will show up this weekend, and next weekend, and the weekend after that and spend $$ in the form of lift tickets and F & B???? Facebook likes are one thing, but healthy positive revenue on the books speaks much louder - so get off FB and get out on the hill, buy a burger and a beer and really show the folks at K what you want!


But closing the best spring terrain early is exactly why I won't be spending any $$ there! :dunce:


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## WWF-VT (Apr 8, 2011)

drjeff said:


> How many likes will show up this weekend, and next weekend, and the weekend after that and spend $$ in the form of lift tickets and F & B????  Facebook likes are one thing, but healthy positive revenue on the books speaks much louder - so get off FB and get out on the hill, buy a burger and a beer and really show the folks at K what you want!



Now you are just being silly with suggesting that people actually go to Killington.  Don't you know that season pass holders are "entitled" to have the mountain stay open without any consideration for the financial impact of extending the season to June ?


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## andyzee (Apr 8, 2011)

WWF-VT said:


> Now you are just being silly with suggesting that people actually go to Killington.  Don't you know that season pass holders are "entitled" to have the mountain stay open without any consideration for the financial impact of extending the season to June ?



Don't you know that if they kept the mountain open longer they might sell more season passes?


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## drjeff (Apr 8, 2011)

roark said:


> But closing the best spring terrain early is exactly why I won't be spending any $$ there! :dunce:



Well maybe if you spent more money there (and brought a few friends with you who also spent some money there) the demand will be there to keep more terrain open longer.


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## drjeff (Apr 8, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Don't you know that if they kept the mountain open longer they might sell more season passes?



I'm sure that Powdr received the season pass data from ASC in the deal, and I'm guessing that if they saw the financial gain was likely to be great from doing so that they would.  Since while many may disagree with Powdr's operations model, I think that the most will agree that the product that their delivering is superior(some of which you can likely attribute to their operations model - less people = less "trauma" to the on-hill product)


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## andyzee (Apr 8, 2011)

drjeff said:


> I'm sure that Powdr received the season pass data from ASC in the deal, and I'm guessing that if they saw the financial gain was likely to be great from doing so that they would.  Since while many may disagree with Powdr's operations model, I think that the most will agree that the product that their delivering is superior(some of which you can likely attribute to their operations model - less people = less "trauma" to the on-hill product)



I agree whole heartedly , Powdr has done an exceptional job this year of delivering the goods But with regards to data concerning season pass sales, I have to disagree. Do not believe that to be easily measurable. Making a name for yourself, a reputation, can take time. But in my opinion, that is something that they should do to set themselves apart from the rest.


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## roark (Apr 8, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Well maybe if you spent more money there (and brought a few friends with you who also spent some money there) the demand will be there to keep more terrain open longer.



See, the funny part is the time when I would be interested in doing so is exactly when they close... as I stated earlier - no interest in K mid-season - it's really only spring when I want to go there. But closing the part of the hill that's the best in the spring first (esp am) is a great way to make me look elsewhere :idea:


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## abc (Apr 9, 2011)

wa-loaf said:


> Just take your money to the places that want it ....


Some already paid their money in season pass. 

But if the mountain is closed, they can't even show their friends what a great mountain it is. 

Anyone in the business can tell me once a season pass is paid for, how much the mountain still gets out of the passholder in the form of their buddies who will buy day ticket to ski there? 

The reason I ask is, I'm not a pass holder, but about half of my skiing is with people who does. So WHERE they have a pass is where I end up skiing. And I'm talking about me buying day tickets!!! 

In that light, mountain that gives "buddy discount" of any sort also make their passholder "better friend" of mine


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## nashuaskibum (Apr 9, 2011)

I was at Killington today... I don't think I took a single lift where at least part of the ride didn't involve someone complaining about bear not being open. Even more so since they had Canyon spinning, when they could of allocated those lift operators to spin Skye Express and added a large amount to the terrain. I mean even if they had to offer "Resort Services" from bear base, they could of thrown up a tent with a ticket printer, keg, and grill and been more the profitable for the day.


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## khjr (Apr 10, 2011)

WWF-VT said:


> Now you are just being silly with suggesting that people actually go to Killington.  Don't you know that season pass holders are "entitled" to have the mountain stay open without any consideration for the financial impact of extending the season to June ?



If I'm reading your post as sarcasm, then I consider it somewhat misplaced.  By similar argument POWDR could, for example, elect to close the mountain at noon on any day that they don’t sell enough tickets in the morning, or close the mountain on November 26th so that the season pass holder fees would go entirely to profit!

Season pass holders, such as myself, bought the pass with an expectation that POWDR would make reasonable efforts to honor the contract by providing the services that we paid for.   

If the weather hadn’t supported remaining open, then one could argue that to be an act of god, or force majeure – POWDR clearly couldn’t honor the season pass contract then.  The weather has been cooperating, however, as evidenced by the recent snowfall and base depth metrics.  Regardless of whether the weather will support remaining open into May, they have already elected to close roughly half of the mountain EARLY.  They’ve elected not to honor the balance of our contract because it is unattractive for them to do so.

I’m encouraging discussion amongst season pass holders in an effort to arouse interest of any class-action lawsuit attorneys that we may be connected to.  I understand that many of these attorneys make a solid living from their portion of the settlement.  It doesn’t matter whether or not our share of that claim amounts to pennies.  We need to send a message to POWDR that they shall honor their season pass contracts even when it may be inconvenient to do so.  Otherwise, next year they may elect to close in March.


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## 2knees (Apr 10, 2011)

This is getting ridiculous


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## mondeo (Apr 10, 2011)

I'm officially to the point where, if almost all if my skiing friends weren't K skiers, I'd move to Sugarbush next season.


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## gmcunni (Apr 10, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I'm officially to the point where, if almost all if my skiing friends weren't K skiers, I'd move to Sugarbush next season.



you can always make new friends.


http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=81345


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## Nick (Apr 10, 2011)

It is a shame. That site has taken off. I dunno how much good it will do but hopefully it gets someone thinking. Would be nice to extend the year, there are several more GREAT weekends of skiing left


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## ScottySkis (Apr 10, 2011)

or just stop buying season pass at K-mart if your that upset about May 1 is better then almost all the other ski areas in the north east,and even Sugarbush isnt really making money now in late spring but their up in north Vt close to die hards and colder weather,but it is Peaks business and were just customers who get to ski,i dont tell my boss how to run his company I may not agree with what he does my work for him,all who bash K-mart should think that way


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## oakapple (Apr 11, 2011)

khjr said:


> Season pass holders, such as myself, bought the pass with an expectation that POWDR would make reasonable efforts to honor the contract by providing the services that we paid for.
> 
> If the weather hadn’t supported remaining open, then one could argue that to be an act of god, or force majeure – POWDR clearly couldn’t honor the season pass contract then.  The weather has been cooperating, however, as evidenced by the recent snowfall and base depth metrics.  Regardless of whether the weather will support remaining open into May, they have already elected to close roughly half of the mountain EARLY.  They’ve elected not to honor the balance of our contract because it is unattractive for them to do so.


Where exactly is the "contract" that you are claiming they violated? Your season's pass agreement does not commit them to adhere to any particular opening or closing dates, much less to keeping particular trail pods open.

As it is, the following trail pods are still open: Killington Peak, the Canyon, Snowdon, the North Ridge, Ramshead, Snowshed, and the upper half of Skye Peak. That's a lot. How many resorts still have even _that_ much still open, especially at Killington's latitude and elevation?

By May 1, Killington's currently planned closing date, how many will remain?


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## mediamogul (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Where exactly is the "contract" that you are claiming they violated? Your season's pass agreement does not commit them to adhere to any particular opening or closing dates, much less to keeping particular trail pods open.
> 
> As it is, the following trail pods are still open: Killington Peak, the Canyon, Snowdon, the North Ridge, Ramshead, Snowshed, and the upper half of Skye Peak. That's a lot. How many resorts still have even _that_ much still open, especially at Killington's latitude and elevation?
> 
> By May 1, Killington's currently planned closing date, how many will remain?



Killington advertised a season lasting from "Nov-early May" to their pass holder and prospective passholders. Last year they closed in April and this year they originally were going to close in April but most likely due to the fervor surrounding this issue they realize they should stay open until May. 

Okemo is at nearly the same lattitude and they have, as of today, 89 out of 119 trails open. A much higher percentage than Killington. 

Closing prior to or on May 1st due to weather or lack of snow cover is one thing. But closing half the mountain early with good cover is simply disrespectful to the passholders and based upon pocketing as much money for the resort as possible. They could definitely keep the mountain open and still turn a profit. It just wouldn't be as large a profit. If Magic, a mountain struggling to stay in business, could stay open into April there is no excuse for Killington, a multi-million dollar resort. There is no way that Magic turned much of a profit over the last couple weekends and most likely did it as a gesture to its dedicated skiers.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 11, 2011)

How much percentage would it really eat into Kmart's profits to spin the SPQ from 10am to 2pm?

Seems like a pretty easy option to keep the passholders happy.


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## oakapple (Apr 11, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> Killington advertised a season lasting from "Nov-early May" to their pass holder and prospective passholders. Last year they closed in April and this year they originally were going to close in April but most likely due to the fervor surrounding this issue they realize they should stay open until May.


Any such advertisement always says, "conditions permitting," and the operator would be given a wide berth to interpret that. Anyhow, it is probably too late to sue over last season, and this year they are meeting their May promise, albeit barely.



> Okemo is at nearly the same lattitude and they have, as of today, 89 out of 119 trails open. A much higher percentage than Killington.


However, they are closing for good next weekend, two full weeks earlier than Killington.



> Closing prior to or on May 1st due to weather or lack of snow cover is one thing. But closing half the mountain early with good cover is simply disrespectful to the passholders and based upon pocketing as much money for the resort as possible.


But they haven't closed anywhere near half the mountain. Out of 10 trail pods (not counting the condo trails), only three are fully or mostly closed. Six are fully or mostly open, and Skye Peak is more than half open.

And as of May 2, the first day you will no longer be able to ski at Killington, which resorts within a day trip's driving distance will still be open?


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## andyzee (Apr 11, 2011)

Real quick, this is all about Killington, but how many mountains stay open longer because of Killington.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Any such advertisement always says, "conditions permitting," and the operator would be given a wide berth to interpret that. Anyhow, it is probably too late to sue over last season, and this year they are meeting their May promise, albeit barely.
> 
> 
> However, they are closing for good next weekend, two full weeks earlier than Killington.
> ...


Skye is more than half open? Sure, if you include the trails it takes 5 minutes of traversing to get to for 1/3 their vertical before you hit the Snowshed crossover and traverse back for 5 minutes.

Oh, and Bear is by far the best spring terrain on the mountain, and everything else was groomed flat Saturday. Shut down Snowdon for all anyone cares, there were more people on the Canyon lift. But keep Bear open as long as it's skiable.

POWDR has never shown any appreciation for their season pass holders, they just treat them like a captive market and go purely for day ticket sales. Even if it cost $10K to run SPQ for the weekend, that's only 15 season passes to make up the difference. With the number of people they pissed off this weekend, it's a sure loser of a proposition.


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## gmcunni (Apr 11, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Real quick, this is all about Killington, but how many mountains stay open longer because of Killington.



not my home mountain :-(


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## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> and everything else was groomed flat Saturday.



shirley you must be joking.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

2knees said:


> shirley you must be joking.


Superstar, Ovation, Downdraft, Skyelark (except for the course) all flat. Escapade had seen a groomer recently. Kept on Freeway (rope line on Big Dipper,) Royal Flush, and woods all day, nothing else was worth skiing.

And stop calling me Shirley.


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## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Superstar, Ovation, Downdraft, Skyelark (except for the course) all flat. Escapade had seen a groomer recently. Kept on Freeway (rope line on Big Dipper,) Royal Flush, and woods all day, nothing else was worth skiing.
> 
> And stop calling me Shirley.



that is assinine.  I hope that isnt the plan for the last 2 weeks.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Superstar, Ovation, Downdraft, Skyelark (except for the course) all flat. Escapade had seen a groomer recently. Kept on Freeway (rope line on Big Dipper,) Royal Flush, and woods all day, nothing else was worth skiing.
> 
> And stop calling me Shirley.



Well then you have a job to do.

Ski in some lines with your crew on Saturday.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 11, 2011)

2knees said:


> that is assinine.  I hope that isnt the plan for the last 2 weeks.



It is the plan, surely.:argue:


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## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> It is the plan, surely.:argue:



Its disssssssssssapointing that they cant leave one of the canyon runs alone.  what would eric say?  STBG!


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## mediamogul (Apr 11, 2011)

Saving grace of the weekend was the trees skiing awesome. Good bumps on the Needle's Liftline (traverse sucked though), Vagabond, Northstar, and Flume. Yeah they groomed most of the Canyon. Weakness.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 11, 2011)

2knees said:


> Its disssssssssssapointing that they cant leave one of the canyon runs alone.  what would eric say?  STBG!



You could have had Fiddle and OL. Not sure how the bumps will hold up thru the week. Natural grooming will occur.


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## oakapple (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Superstar, Ovation, Downdraft, Skyelark (except for the course) all flat. Escapade had seen a groomer recently.


This is a completely different issue than keeping Bear Mountain open. Grooming costs money, which means that if K management were as bottom-line-driven as people say, the groomers would have stayed in the garage, except for trails like Great Northern that are groomed all the time.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> This is a completely different issue than keeping Bear Mountain open. Grooming costs money, which means that if K management were as bottom-line-driven as people say, the groomers would have stayed in the garage, except for trails like Great Northern that are groomed all the time.


Some people say they're bottom line driven. I just think they don't have a clue what their season pass holders want, and don't care because they just assume it's captured business. Every passholder I know is pissed off at K's management right now.


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## khjr (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Where exactly is the "contract" that you are claiming they violated? Your season's pass agreement does not commit them to adhere to any particular opening or closing dates, much less to keeping particular trail pods open.



It is indeed an implied contract based, but such contracts nonetheless carry legal force.  They rely on a “meeting of the minds” occurring between buyer and seller and are frequently upheld in court on evidence of “reasonable expectations.”

A reasonable person would expect that, when a resort promises use of their facilities for a season via a product called the “season pass,” it will allow the buyer to avail themselves of those facilities for the season.  

Killington effectively closed half of the mountain facilities on April 4th.  The Killington website indicates that pro-rated refunds (for injuries etc.) of season passes are calculated against an end of season date of April 15th.  Wouldn’t a reasonable person expect for Killington to make best efforts to maintain the resort fully open at least through April 15th, weather conditions permitting?

Granted, Killington could challenge the above conclusions by saying that “season means whatever they want it to,” and that “open can mean half-open or less, depending on what is most profitable for them.”  That would certainly change a future buyer’s perception of the pass' value, wouldn’t it?


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## RootDKJ (Apr 11, 2011)

khjr said:


> It is indeed an implied contract based, but such contracts nonetheless carry legal force.  They rely on a “meeting of the minds” occurring between buyer and seller and are frequently upheld in court on evidence of “reasonable expectations.”
> 
> A reasonable person would expect that, when a resort promises use of their facilities for a season via a product called the “season pass,” it will allow the buyer to avail themselves of those facilities for the season.
> 
> ...


Be happy that they don't close when the "season" changes from Winter to Spring.


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## khjr (Apr 11, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Be happy that they don't close when the "season" changes from Winter to Spring.



Too Funny - That's exactly what I'm afraid of !!!  

It’s been my experience that most companies are obsessed with current year financials.  Management of long term customer loyalty is discussed, but ultimately doesn’t drive the decision-making because it’s so difficult to quantify in a business case.

Without a legal threat, there's little incentive for POWDR to make decisions on the basis of anything other than purely short-term financial considerations.


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## andyzee (Apr 11, 2011)

I heard that for next year lift operations will be taken care of remotely from India.


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## dmc (Apr 11, 2011)

andyzee said:


> I heard that for next year lift operations will be taken care of remotely from India.



Hello this is Chandler - how may i help you


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## frankm938 (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I'm officially to the point where, if almost all if my skiing friends weren't K skiers, I'd move to Sugarbush next season.



ya but dont they open later and close sooner?


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## Black Phantom (Apr 11, 2011)

frankm938 said:


> ya but dont they open later and close sooner?



Depends on the year. And the temps for the next couple of weeks.


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## mediamogul (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> This is a completely different issue than keeping Bear Mountain open. Grooming costs money, which means that if K management were as bottom-line-driven as people say, the groomers would have stayed in the garage, except for trails like Great Northern that are groomed all the time.



It's not quite that simple. Midweek grooming definitely gets scaled back. On the weekend the costs of grooming are weighed against the profits of increased skier traffic. It's more economically beneficial to maintain groomed trails to cater to the demographic of weekend skiers who generally desire a more manicured product. They do not want to alienate these folks but simultaneously are alienating the die-hards (many of whom are passholders) who would like more of a balance between groomed and ungroomed/moguls. 

I think their current grooming strategies, which I would term as aggressive, are perfectly in line with the business plan of attracting upscale skiers who desire a "pleasant" experience on the hill.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

frankm938 said:


> ya but dont they open later and close sooner?


Open later, yes, but close at the same time or later. Plus I get the impression that they don't jerk their passholders around as much, which is more of what I'm going for. I'm hating the fact that I'm going to be handing POWDR a good chunk of money in the next couple weeks, just on principle.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

mediamogul said:


> I think their current grooming strategies, which I would term as aggressive, are perfectly in line with the business plan of attracting upscale skiers who desire a "pleasant" experience on the hill.


Except they're taking little Johnny to baseball practice at this point. Spring skiing = bumps. The balance has shifted at this point in the season.


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## oakapple (Apr 11, 2011)

khjr said:


> It is indeed an implied contract based, but such contracts nonetheless carry legal force.  They rely on a “meeting of the minds” occurring between buyer and seller and are frequently upheld in court on evidence of “reasonable expectations.”
> 
> A reasonable person would expect that, when a resort promises use of their facilities for a season via a product called the “season pass,” it will allow the buyer to avail themselves of those facilities for the season.
> 
> Killington effectively closed half of the mountain facilities on April 4th.  The Killington website indicates that pro-rated refunds (for injuries etc.) of season passes are calculated against an end of season date of April 15th.  Wouldn’t a reasonable person expect for Killington to make best efforts to maintain the resort fully open at least through April 15th, weather conditions permitting?


They didn't close anywhere near half of the facilities on April 4th. Even today, far more than half their terrain is open.

Anyone buying a season's pass is presumably an experienced skier, who would know that most ski areas curtail the amount of open terrain near the end of the season. Killington might not have done that when Preston Smith was there, but that was far too many years ago to be relevant.

Did Killington last year keep 100 percent of their usable terrain open until closing day? Did they do so two years ago?


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## mediamogul (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Except they're taking little Johnny to baseball practice at this point. Spring skiing = bumps. The balance has shifted at this point in the season.



Absolutely but they have continued with the aggressive grooming in spite of this fact. The Canyon was flat this weekend. They should be appealing to the bumpers at this point. Instead they are effectively alienating EVERYONE. This seems to be the outcome of 90% of POWDR's policies.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 11, 2011)

Killington threads deliver ! 

People bitch when they don't open in October and whine even louder when they scale back operations in April.


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## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

baseball hasnt started yet.  it aint johnny's fault.


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## skime (Apr 11, 2011)

2knees said:


> baseball hasnt started yet.  it aint johnny's fault.



weren't you sitting on the bear deck weekend of 4/2?


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> They didn't close anywhere near half of the facilities on April 4th. Even today, far more than half their terrain is open.
> 
> Anyone buying a season's pass is presumably an experienced skier, who would know that most ski areas curtail the amount of open terrain near the end of the season. Killington might not have done that when Preston Smith was there, but that was far too many years ago to be relevant.
> 
> Did Killington last year keep 100 percent of their usable terrain open until closing day? Did they do so two years ago?


Last year was warm, they pretty much closed areas as they became unskiable. And then they closed earlier than their announced date with good coverage on Superstar. Check back a year and see what people were saying then; POWDR has a history of making people mad.


2knees said:


> baseball hasnt started yet. it aint johnny's fault.


In NYS, spring sports start practice on March 1st in high schools. Maybe it's not Little Johnny, but Medium Johnny is busy.


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## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

skime said:


> weren't you sitting on the bear deck weekend of 4/2?



I was there for a bit.  talked to Jack for a while on sunday.  You met him at sundown last year.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 11, 2011)

2knees said:


> baseball hasnt started yet.  it aint johnny's fault.



My 10 year old has his first baseball game of the year tonight and has been practicing for over a month.  Granted I'm 7 hours south...


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## oakapple (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Check back a year and see what people were saying then; POWDR has a history of making people mad.


Oh, I know that. I am just commenting on the idea that there's a class-action lawsuit lurking in there, based on passholders who believed they were getting more. By this point, whether you agreed with POWDR or not, anyone buying a pass knew what they were getting.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

Would folks be happy with a swap out of the Snowdon Quad for Skye Peak Express?  That would make a lot of the Snowdon terrain tough to get to, but would allow for Bear access.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Would folks be happy with a swap out of the Snowdon Quad for Skye Peak Express?  That would make a lot of the Snowdon terrain tough to get to, but would allow for Bear access.



Snowdon would be a 3 minute walk to the peak from Killink and a short skate to the gondola depending where you came out. Or a short trip down to Snowshed and back up to SSQ.


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## oakapple (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Would folks be happy with a swap out of the Snowdon Quad for Skye Peak Express?  That would make a lot of the Snowdon terrain tough to get to, but would allow for Bear access.



I don't defend their decision, but it involves much more than just operating lifts. Every open terrain pod also needs to be patrolled and groomed.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Would folks be happy with a swap out of the Snowdon Quad for Skye Peak Express? That would make a lot of the Snowdon terrain tough to get to, but would allow for Bear access.


I think most people would rather have that, but it kills the intermediate terrain availability. Swapping the Canyon for SPQ is an easy call, given that the people skiing the Canyon in general would much rather have OL and the Fiddle (short hike up or cut through Centerline.)


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Snowdon would be a 3 minute walk to the peak from Killink and a short skate to the gondola depending where you came out. Or a short trip down to Snowshed and back up to SSQ.



I was meaning having only the K1 to access all of K Peak and Snowdon.  In that scenario, the center of the mountain of terrain on Snowdon would be a pain to get due to the traverse over on Great Northern.

I'm just trying to think up a better plan than what they currently have whereby more terrain could be open utilizing the same number of lifts.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> I don't defend their decision, but it involves much more than just operating lifts. Every open terrain pod also needs to be patrolled and groomed.


Patrolled, yes. But why groomed? The people most upset just want a fully covered OL back, and never wanted it groomed in the first place. Maybe a quick clean-up of the base area is necessary, but leave it natural other than that.


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## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

Outer Limits is the steepest and longest mogul trail in the east.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

2knees said:


> Outer Limits is the steepest and longest mogul trail in the east.



except for when it's just a steep trail

:lol:


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## Black Phantom (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I was meaning having only the K1 to access all of K Peak and Snowdon.  In that scenario, the center of the mountain of terrain on Snowdon would be a pain to get due to the traverse over on Great Northern.
> 
> I'm just trying to think up a better plan than what they currently have whereby more terrain could be open utilizing the same number of lifts.



I agree with you. Read what I wrote. The walk across the Bear parking lot is about the same. Never mind the car ride back. 

What I outlined keeps everyone on a chairlift and on the snow. 

The Glades3 has been out of service for over a week. Intermediates were getting crushed getting to the CQ on the steep terrain.


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## khjr (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> They didn't close anywhere near half of the facilities on April 4th. Even today, far more than half their terrain is open.



Nit picking, and unsubstantiated as well...  Have you measured exactly how much more than half?  How did you measure?  By square footage, cumulative vertical drop, trail count, lift count, mountain count?...  

Three of 5 peaks have extremely limited or no access, over half of the major lifts are closed as per their lift report… close enough to “half” for me.



oakapple said:


> Anyone buying a season's pass is presumably an experienced skier, who would know that most ski areas curtail the amount of open terrain near the end of the season. Killington might not have done that when Preston Smith was there, but that was far too many years ago to be relevant.



That’s a pretty broad assumption and specious argument.  I’ve been buying season passes at Killington since the year I learned how to ski.  Further, I don’t have to think further back than last year to recall that the major lifts remained open until snow conditions dictated otherwise – through Easter at least.



oakapple said:


> Did Killington last year keep 100 percent of their usable terrain open until closing day? Did they do so two years ago?



A rhetorical question so, in return I’ll ask:  Over the last two years, did Killington elect to close over half of lifts serving 3 of the 5 mountains when there was still excellent cover and accommodating weather conditions?  I don’t recall that being the case.

Point being this – it’s a slippery slope.  If we don’t speak up now, then we’re allowing for a rapid erosion in the value of our season passes.


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## thorski (Apr 11, 2011)

It was a major mistake not having Bear and Needles open this weekend. That being said if they stay open to May 1st and don't back out like last year then they have fulfilled their duties to season pass holders, IMHO.
If they close a week early like last year then that would be the biggest Fail of all time.


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## khjr (Apr 11, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Oh, I know that. I am just commenting on the idea that there's a class-action lawsuit lurking in there, based on passholders who believed they were getting more. By this point, whether you agreed with POWDR or not, anyone buying a pass knew what they were getting.



I disagree.  This is the first year that POWDR has closed down such a large number of lifts when there is still such excellent cover.  They have set a new precedent this year:  significant reduction of mountain facilities in early April despite there being outstanding snow conditions to support remaining open.


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## AdironRider (Apr 11, 2011)

khjr said:


> I disagree.  This is the first year that POWDR has closed down such a large number of lifts when there is still such excellent cover.  They have set a new precedent this year:  significant reduction of mountain facilities in early April despite there being outstanding snow conditions to support remaining open.




You Killington regulars need to pick your battles. 

IMO, and I was there on opening day for both the Riv and Killington when I was back east, was Killington killed Sunday River on the opening, waaaay back in the beginning of November. The walkway was a badass improvement if you ask me, and if they make it to May 1st like they claim, thats one of the longest seasons in the country, period. You guys are going to get beat out by Loveland, Mammoth, and maybe a few Tahoe resorts (not sure on when they opened), and it was continous. Not, oh well open a weekend here then close for a couple (aka the River) or well see how it goes late, but only weekends blah blah blah. You guys opened the first couple days of November, and could have skied everyday until now, and hopefully until May 1st. For any ski resort thats one hell of a season, let alone one in the Northeast. 

Now you guys find a way to bitch because so and so's favorite run wasnt open. Ive skied K enough to know that while Outer Limits is a great trail, its not like you cant find something steep with bumps under the gondi. You just sound like spoiled kids at this point. 

Meanwhile Im sitting here in my office at the seasons in Jackson Hole, looking at a base of 150+ inches (yes its gotten deeper by two feet, since we closed mind you) with no lifts spinning. I just don't feel that bad you can't one trail pod at Killington midway through April.


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

khjr said:


> I disagree. This is the first year that POWDR has closed down such a large number of lifts when there is still such excellent cover. They have set a new precedent this year: significant reduction of mountain facilities in early April despite there being outstanding snow conditions to support remaining open.


This is also the first year they've had such outstanding coverage this late into April. The lawsuit talk is nonsense.


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## ScottySkis (Apr 11, 2011)

Well maybe everyone who enjoys Killington and wants them to stay open should take their money and go some where else if I don't like a company then I don't shop their,you could all invest in Magic and then they be able to put on more better conditions or buy your own hill in a snow belt and run it how you want


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

Scotty said:


> Well maybe everyone who enjoys Killington and wants them to stay open should take their money and go some where else if I don't like a company then I don't shop their,you could all invest in Magic and then they be able to put on more better conditions or buy your own hill in a snow belt and run it how you want


That's a rather simplistic way of viewing things.

The company running the place sucks. Everything else is good. Even POWDR can't screw up the friendships that I have there, the basic terrain and natural snow goodness that exists, and the proximety to Hartford. Doesn't mean I have to like the way the place is run, get friends to spend money there, or pay POWDR for anything other than the lift service (F&B boycott goes into effect now, I'll just have to find amazing brownies somewhere else.)


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## gmcunni (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> (F&B boycott goes into effect now, I'll just have to find amazing brownies somewhere else.)



stock up at Costco. for the price of a K brownie you can probably get a huge box of them.


----------



## andyzee (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> That's a rather simplistic way of viewing things.
> 
> The company running the place sucks. Everything else is good. Even POWDR can't screw up the friendships that I have there, the basic terrain and natural snow goodness that exists, and the proximety to Hartford. Doesn't mean I have to like the way the place is run, get friends to spend money there, or pay POWDR for anything other than the lift service (F&B boycott goes into effect now, I'll just have to find amazing brownies somewhere else.)



Well put.


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## roark (Apr 11, 2011)

Scotty said:


> Well maybe everyone who enjoys Killington and wants them to stay open should take their money and go some where else if I don't like a company then I don't shop their,you could all invest in Magic and then they be able to put on more better conditions or buy your own hill in a snow belt and run it how you want



Kmart has a distinct geographical advantage over most of New England, in that it has sufficient elevation to make snow earlier, keep snow later, and the many mountain faces provide different aspects to provide for sun softened snow in the spring, along with a reasonable commuting distance from major metropolitan areas. Add to that a massive snowmaking budget (spent way back in Dec & Jan) that along with this years ample natural snowfall should provide sufficient depth to ski well into mid-May. The capital required to keep operations running is minuscule compared to what was spent early season. If I were a passholder, I would be VERY upset. But the past actions of this management are exactly why I'm not a passholder. Closing Bear this weekend also meant I didn't even go for a day ticket (much less F&B, etc.), and instead closed out the season at Magic where they actually care about the skiing (and the customers whose money they may have already collected). Had Bear been open I would have gone to Kmart.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

Wonder how many K skiers would prefer if they reduced down to a Friday through Monday schedule starting now, but kept Bear and Needles open for the weekends.

Seems like a win - win to me.  K gets to save some money, their customers get a much better ski experience during the time when the mountain actually stands to make some money.


----------



## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

gmcunni said:


> stock up at Costco. for the price of a K brownie you can probably get a huge box of them.


Have you ever had a fresh brownie at K? I'd rather have one of those than an entire box from Cosco. They are delicious.


----------



## andyzee (Apr 11, 2011)

roark said:


> instead closed out the season at Magic where they actually care about the skiing (and the customers whose money they may have already collected). .




And that my friends is the Killington difference, they just don't care..


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## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Wonder how many K skiers would prefer if they reduced down to a Friday through Monday schedule starting now, but kept Bear and Needles open for the weekends.
> 
> Seems like a win - win to me. K gets to save some money, their customers get a much better ski experience during the time when the mountain actually stands to make some money.


I think a big chunk of it is all their South Americans are gone. They can move people around, but to increase service means they would actually have to hire some people.

But c'mon. Get Nyberg bumping chairs. Find a way to not piss of your most loyal customers, the ones who give you the best marketing bang for your buck.


----------



## khjr (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> This is also the first year they've had such outstanding coverage this late into April.



Exactly my point - "This is also the first year they've had such outstanding coverage this late into April," and they choose to shut down a significant number of lifts earlier than in previous years.  That's just wrong, and they need to be sent a message.  The most effective way of doing so is via a lawsuit.  Complaing to them isn't going to do any good, as they already made a business decision to screw their customers.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Have you ever had a fresh brownie at K? I'd rather have one of those than an entire box from Cosco. They are delicious.



http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/cocoa-brownies-recipe/index.html

Seriously, as good as Ks Brownies are, you can make a whole batch on your own that are even better for a fraction the cost. 

Also, you could sell em' in the parking lot.  Doubly screw POWDR


----------



## mediamogul (Apr 11, 2011)

I love the mountain, the terrain and the snow. I disagree with many of the decisions being made by management. I have skied at K for many years and it is simply the best mountain within reasonable distance of me. Jay is too far, Stowe is too expensive and Sugarbush doesn't offer a pass in my price range (especially with the added 45 mins driving). I know K like the back of my hand. It's hard to just up and leave. I used to say with pride that I was a Killington skier. I think that skiers should be vocal regarding their mountain and to object to things they think are not beneficial to their mountain. I hear snowboarder's  object to MRG not allowing snowboards (they should buy shares and get the policy changed if they really want it to) constantly why shouldn't K skiers protest half their mountain being closed? I think they should object loud and often. POWDR should have a thorn in their side.


----------



## andyzee (Apr 11, 2011)

khjr said:


> Exactly my point - "This is also the first year they've had such outstanding coverage this late into April," and they choose to shut down a significant number of lifts earlier than in previous years.  That's just wrong, and they need to be sent a message.  The most effective way of doing so is via a lawsuit.  Complaing to them isn't going to do any good, as they already made a business decision to screw their customers.




No, in reality the most effective way of doing so is by taking your money elsewhere. Lawsuit is a waste of time and money. Even most blood sucking lawyers would probably tell you that.


----------



## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/cocoa-brownies-recipe/index.html
> 
> Seriously, as good as Ks Brownies are, you can make a whole batch on your own that are even better for a fraction the cost.
> 
> Also, you could sell em' in the parking lot. Doubly screw POWDR


To be fair, I'd have to add the cost of my time to that. But mostly I'm just lazy.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> To be fair, I'd have to add the cost of my time to that. But mostly I'm just lazy.



For me, cooking is priceless.

You couldn't pay me to do it professionally anymore (even though I've been offered good money to do so), but I love cooking at home at night.  Always got something in production; stocks, soups, charcuterie

wife does the baking though.  Too much math involved, so I don't enjoy it.  As engineer, you just might though.


----------



## mondeo (Apr 11, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> For me, cooking is priceless.
> 
> You couldn't pay me to do it professionally anymore (even though I've been offered good money to do so), but I love cooking at home at night. Always got something in production; stocks, soups, charcuterie
> 
> wife does the baking though. Too much math involved, so I don't enjoy it. As engineer, you just might though.


In all seriousness, I do enjoy it. Thinking of doing kebobs and Mississippi mud (basically a brownie with coconut and walnuts, topped with Fluff and chocolate frosting) for tailgating this weekend. Kebobs are standard beef and chicken, teryaki marinade with tomatoes, peppers, onion, as well as beef with mesquite marinade, peaches, pineapple, and orange. Nobody expects the fruit kebob.


----------



## 2knees (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> In all seriousness, I do enjoy it. Thinking of doing kebobs and Mississippi mud (basically a brownie with coconut and walnuts, topped with Fluff and chocolate frosting) for tailgating this weekend. Kebobs are standard beef and chicken, teryaki marinade with tomatoes, peppers, onion, as well as beef with mesquite marinade, peaches, pineapple, and orange. Nobody expects the fruit kebob.




kebobs are my specialty.  Red onion, red, green, yellow and orange peppers, squash, some boomers and sirloin tips marinated in balsamic vinagarette overnight.

**** the chicken, the yellow meal is for cheap wedding plates.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> In all seriousness, I do enjoy it. Thinking of doing kebobs and Mississippi mud (basically a brownie with coconut and walnuts, topped with Fluff and chocolate frosting) for tailgating this weekend. Kebobs are standard beef and chicken, teryaki marinade with tomatoes, peppers, onion, as well as beef with mesquite marinade, peaches, pineapple, and orange. Nobody expects the fruit kebob.



I have grilled peaches and pineapple, but not oranges.  I'll check it out

My wife has a steak tip marinade passed down from her great grandmother.  Not sure of the exact ratios as she makes it, but it's veg oil, molasses, soy sauce, minced garlic, ground ginger, salt and pepper.  rules

believe it or not, one of the more award winning restaurants in Northern New England does a 2 day marinade on their Hanger Steak with equal parts Coffee, Coca Cola and Soy Sauce.  So simple.  Yet, the number one selling item on their menu for past 4 years.  Kick ass house steak sauce has a lot to do with it, but I was shocked when he told me his marinade.


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## powhunter (Apr 12, 2011)

Ive cooked salmon with a similar marinade..Banging

steveo


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

Scotty said:


> Well maybe everyone who enjoys Killington and wants them to stay open should take their money and go some where else if I don't like a company then I don't shop their,you could all invest in Magic and then they be able to put on more better conditions or buy your own hill in a snow belt and run it how you want



When r U coming up 2 the Institution little fella?


----------



## khjr (Apr 12, 2011)

andyzee said:


> No, in reality the most effective way of doing so is by taking your money elsewhere. Lawsuit is a waste of time and money. Even most blood sucking lawyers would probably tell you that.



I’m not sure that taking our money elsewhere will communicate the message of our dissatisfaction more effectively.  I don’t disagree outright, as that’s how markets are supposed to work, don’t believe that it’s necessarily the most effective solution.  

For instance, it’ll take quite a while for our dissatisfaction to have a financial impact on POWDR, and, even then, it’ll be somewhat unclear to them why they’re selling fewer season passes.  “Could it be the new deadline for pass purchase, or the weather, or the economy, or their competitive attributes, or shifting demographics, etc. etc.”  All unclear, and extremely difficult for them to quantify, especially when they evidence the typical business obsession with current year financial performance.

Lawsuits are a waste of time and money for most plaintiffs who expect to derive some monetary benefit, and the class action lawsuit is frequently referred to as the mechanism by which the legal industry funds itself - each plaintiff typically gets a pittance (over the years many of us have gotten those tiny checks in the mail...) while the legal teams take their share for services rendered.  As noted earlier though, in this instance we don't care about the remuneration, we want POWDR to modify their business model so that it better accounts for the potential costs of buyer dissatisfaction.  Even the threat of a lawsuit is sufficient to do that.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 12, 2011)

khjr said:


> As noted earlier though, in this instance we don't care about the remuneration, we want POWDR to modify their business model so that it better accounts for the potential costs of buyer dissatisfaction.  Even the threat of a lawsuit is sufficient to do that.



I can't wait for the Harvard Business Review case study that examines how POWDR modifies its business model based upon the threat of a lawsuit from bitching season pass holders.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

WWF-VT said:


> I can't wait for the Harvard Business Review case study that examines how POWDR modifies it's business model based upon the threat of a lawsuit from bitching season pass holders.



What makes you think that HBR would bother with something this small and insignificant?  Are the editors scratching for cases? 

You coming up or are you staying at home?


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

Has there ever been a season where the atleast some K regulars DON'T find something to b$tch about, and then take that b$tching to the nth degree??


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## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Has there ever been a season where the atleast some K regulars DON'T find something to b$tch about, and then take that b$tching to the nth degree??


The ones before POWDR?


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## 2knees (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The ones before POWDR?



Seriously?  People were absolutely rioting the last few years of ASC.  Couldnt WAIT (warp thats for you) to get rid of them.  

Watch what you wish for.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The ones before POWDR?



How is powdr's track record at other resorts? Keeping folks happy?


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## 2knees (Apr 12, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> How is powdr's track record at other resorts? Keeping folks happy?



I think the bachelor locals were less then pleased with Powdr's efforts out there.


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## oakapple (Apr 12, 2011)

khjr said:


> As noted earlier though, in this instance we don't care about the remuneration, we want POWDR to modify their business model so that it better accounts for the potential costs of buyer dissatisfaction.  Even the threat of a lawsuit is sufficient to do that.



What you seem to be saying is: for all its faults, you still haven't found a better option than Killington. I mean, if there were something better, a far more sensible approach would be to take your skiing dollars elsewhere.

I mean, if I'm served a poor dinner at a local restaurant, I don't sue or complain about the business model. I just go to another restaurant next time. There are plenty of great restaurants. I don't waste time bemoaning the bad ones.

All of this griping about Killington suggests a contradiction: although it's not what we want, it's still better than most (or indeed all) of the alternatives.


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## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

oakapple said:


> What you seem to be saying is: for all its faults, you still haven't found a better option than Killington. I mean, if there were something better, a far more sensible approach would be to take your skiing dollars elsewhere.
> 
> I mean, if I'm served a poor dinner at a local restaurant, I don't sue or complain about the business model. I just go to another restaurant next time. There are plenty of great restaurants. I don't waste time bemoaning the bad ones.
> 
> All of this griping about Killington suggests a contradiction: although it's not what we want, it's still better than most (or indeed all) of the alternatives.


Nobody's complaining about Killington. They're complaining about POWDR.


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## oakapple (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Nobody's complaining about Killington. They're complaining about POWDR.



For the foreseeable future, they're one and the same.


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The ones before POWDR?



As I recall, it was too crowded, the early season options have stunk since K-1 went in, all the money that ASC was making back East was being shipped out West, etc, etc, etc


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

oakapple said:


> For the foreseeable future, they're one and the same.



Where are you skiing at this weekend?


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## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

oakapple said:


> For the foreseeable future, they're one and the same.


So because it's a great mountain, we should just bend over and take it from the guys that run it?

This isn't about them closing down Bear a week earlier than they should've one time. This is about a continuous display of apathy towards their season pass holders, and a lack of understanding their market. If it isn't perceived to help day ticket sales, it doesn't happen.





drjeff said:


> As I recall, it was too crowded, the early season options have stunk since K-1 went in, all the money that ASC was making back East was being shipped out West, etc, etc, etc


Well, they're still sending all their money out West. It's a nice new 6 pack that Copper's getting. At this point I'm guessing nothing more than a coat of paint and new mulch this summer for Killington, given that they only have a couple weeks before pass prices go up. Doubling prices has the effect of reducing crowding. Plus I didn't join the board until after POWDR took over, so I've seen a massive increase in displeasure with the new guys relative to ASC. :razz:


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## oakapple (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> So because it's a great mountain, we should just bend over and take it from the guys that run it?
> 
> This isn't about them closing down Bear a week earlier than they should've one time. This is about a continuous display of apathy towards their season pass holders, and a lack of understanding their market.


Hey, I'm just making an empirical observation. If there were something much better than POWDR is now offering at Killington, you'd just go there, and say, "Bye, bye." The same as if you get poor service at a restaurant, a gas station, a shoe store, or a movie theater. If you don't like one, there are many others.

The reason you feel so passionately about Killington is that, despite what POWDR has done, better options don't really exist. Even in its curtailed state, Killington is still better than most or all of the relevant competition.

And if POWDR doesn't understand the market, apparently their competitors don't either. If Killington were getting it wrong, you'd think it creates an opportunity for smarter operators to make money off of POWDR's foolishness. And yet, practically the whole East Coast plans to be closed by May 1, if they haven't already. The only exceptions are much farther north of Killington, and will be open for just a couple of extra weekends, at most.

As a skier, I would much prefer to see Killington open as late in the year as there is snow cover. But I'm not at all convinced that POWDR is getting it wrong _from a business perspective_ (and they are, after all, a business). There's no great evidence of a lucrative ski market in the Northeast past April.


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## skiadikt (Apr 12, 2011)

oakapple said:


> What you seem to be saying is: for all its faults, you still haven't found a better option than Killington. I mean, if there were something better, a far more sensible approach would be to take your skiing dollars elsewhere.
> 
> I mean, if I'm served a poor dinner at a local restaurant, I don't sue or complain about the business model. I just go to another restaurant next time. There are plenty of great restaurants. I don't waste time bemoaning the bad ones.
> 
> All of this griping about Killington suggests a contradiction: although it's not what we want, it's still better than most (or indeed all) of the alternatives.



in addition to lodging etc, the nearest competitive "restaurants" are about an hour north. the xtra hour on a weekly basis is prohibitive, at least for me from nyc or else i'd be gone.

regarding asc, we all know their mistakes. they came in with guns blazing - obviously too much too soon or more than they shoulda done. 4 lifts, including 2 hsq's & an 8-person gondi in the first 2 yrs. major snowmaking improvements including the woodward reservoir connection. perhaps most importantly they understood the history & culture at k. their first season (1996-97) featured the latest close & one of the longest season's (oct 4 - june 22). as recently as 2003 they were still open memorial weekend and in their final season, running on financial fumes, they still closed may 6. powdr's first season they closed april 20, the earliest in over 40 yrs.


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## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Hey, I'm just making an empirical observation. If there were something much better than POWDR is now offering at Killington, you'd just go there, and say, "Bye, bye." The same as if you get poor service at a restaurant, a gas station, a shoe store, or a movie theater. If you don't like one, there are many others.
> 
> The reason you feel so passionately about Killington is that, despite what POWDR has done, better options don't really exist. Even in its curtailed state, Killington is still better than most or all of the relevant competition.
> 
> ...


I don't really care about May 8th skiing, my ski house lease is up May 1st anyways. I don't think there's enough of a market for skiing beyond probably next weekend in the East to make more than a few areas profitable, and only enough for 1 after May 1st. But their overall operations (closing early their first year of ownership, closing with full coverage on Superstar last year based on a weather forecast a couple weeks out, schizo approaches to grooming and snowmaking, killing BMMC, the list goes on) are widely perceived to display a lack of understanding of the local market and ignoring the desires of customers. Running the SPQ for one additional weekend would have done wonders in reversing that sentiment.

While I'm too tied down there to move to a different mountain, that doesn't mean everyone is. By access road traffic counts, business is down anywhere between 8-15% relative to POWDR's first year. Meanwhile, Sugarloaf's claimed King of Spring, Sunday River's first to open (giving Boyne the season title for passholders,) there have been large migrations of K skiers to Sugarbush and Jay to close out the season, etc. People have left Killington, and the ones still there aren't happy with the owners (in general.) I hear Highway Star is going to be skiing at Sunday River next year.


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## Edd (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I hear Highway Star is going to be skiing at Sunday River next year.



Sigh..if only.  Then I learn how to do a ski-off proper.  I've been reading this thread with interest and, it occurred to me this morning, that the SR skiers who post here have been downright content over the years compared to the Kmart folks.

There may be more K skiers here, therefore more opinions.  Or the SR people may be less demanding (it's the Maine in them).  Maybe SR just understands their clientele better.


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## Riverskier (Apr 12, 2011)

Edd said:


> Sigh..if only.  Then I learn how to do a ski-off proper.  I've been reading this thread with interest and, it occurred to me this morning, that the SR skiers who post here have been downright content over the years compared to the Kmart folks.
> 
> There may be more K skiers here, therefore more opinions.  Or the SR people may be less demanding (it's the Maine in them).  Maybe SR just understands their clientele better.



I suspect it is all of the above. I personally just don't have much to complain about. A lot to be happy about though- October to May season, affordable passes, investment in the mountain, management that listens and communicates with their customers, etc.. Life is good for this SR skier/Boyne Pass holder.


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

Serious question here.  Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???


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## skiadikt (Apr 12, 2011)

Edd said:


> Sigh..if only.  Then I learn how to do a ski-off proper.  I've been reading this thread with interest and, it occurred to me this morning, that the SR skiers who post here have been downright content over the years compared to the Kmart folks.
> 
> There may be more K skiers here, therefore more opinions.  Or the SR people may be less demanding (it's the Maine in them).  Maybe SR just understands their clientele better.



don't know if it's necessarily understanding clientele better. unfortunately for powdr, killington is held up to different expectations than sunday river or other areas due to their past history and culture. regarding closings, while i no longer expect a memorial weekend closing as they had done for about 25 yrs, like mondeo mentions, last season they closed a week earlier than their original announced closing with plenty of snow on superstar. their first season, they closed even earlier, again with plenty of snow. this past weekend, a lift (even the bear quad) should have been run at bear. if running that one lift would have had that much impact on their bottom line, then they must be in much bigger financial trouble than any of us realize.


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## SkiFanE (Apr 12, 2011)

Edd said:


> Sigh..if only.  Then I learn how to do a ski-off proper.  I've been reading this thread with interest and, it occurred to me this morning, that the SR skiers who post here have been downright content over the years compared to the Kmart folks.
> 
> There may be more K skiers here, therefore more opinions.  Or the SR people may be less demanding (it's the Maine in them).  Maybe SR just understands their clientele better.



SR skier here, but I'm not 'from' Maine.  I'm not disappointed with the 4/24 closing date.  If I still feel like skiing, I'll head to Sugarloaf.  Probably because I started skiing in October :razz: .  Skiing in Oct does not compare to spring, but something about the stoke and being able to finally ski is huge then.  If I didn't start skiing until Thanksgiving, I may not be as happy with the closing date.  I have only skied one day in May in my life, at K.  Their culture was king of the spring then.  So I can see how those that relied on that are disappointed.  Nevermind they didn't even open until a month or so after SR.  If I don't ski May this year (at SL), I still skied 7 months at SR.  Damn happy about that, will get day 70 in this weekend.


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## andyzee (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Serious question here. Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???


 
Can you measure the advertising factor as opposed to just straight profitablity? Don't have anything to back it up, but have to guess that model amounted to many more season passes being sold.


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## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Serious question here. Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???


Probably not. Not even ASC or POWDR, I'd guess. But what's the cost of running 1 lift, 5 hours a day (10-3), for two days? 3 people staffing for 6 hours @ $20/ hour (including overhead,) call it $800 in staffing. 900hp motor, 12 hours of operation, $0.25/kw-hr, $2K. Throw in another $1K in there for whatever. Under $5K for the weekend. What the hell, double it. $10K.

All they need to lose is 10 unlimited passholders to make it not break even. Or not sell 150 day tickets. Or 5 passholders and 40 weekend guests. That isn't that much, considering the additional mess that it created with parking. There are other obstacles besides cost here which, given the turnaround on Ramshead the week prior, I'm guessing were the deciding factor (finding the people to actually do the work, ski patrol, etc.) but I have a feeling that other mountains would have figured something out. I mean, how much credit would they get for having Nyberg & co. bumping chairs for a couple hours on the weekend? "Plans were to close, but we knew how much you wanted it, so everyone on the team chipped in."


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## Riverskier (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Serious question here.  Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???



I don't have an answer, but I will say that looking at day ticket sales/F&B revenue won't produce an accurate picture regardless of the result. There are so many other factors that can't easily be quantified. How many seasons passes did they sell simply because they could be used from October to June when the season at other mountains was 2+ months shorter? I would venture to guess quite a few. How many people came back to K mid-winter after enjoying the early/late season product? Real estate purchases due to long season? Skier visits based on K's reputation as the Beast that was created largely by their long seasons? I could go on, but the fact is there are many more variables at play in determining whether a late season strategy is profitable other than day to day profit and loss.


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## RootDKJ (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Probably not. Not even ASC or POWDR, I'd guess. But what's the cost of running 1 lift, 5 hours a day (10-3), for two days? 3 people staffing for 6 hours @ $20/ hour (including overhead,) call it $800 in staffing. 900hp motor, 12 hours of operation, $0.25/kw-hr, $2K. Throw in another $1K in there for whatever. Under $5K for the weekend. What the hell, double it. $10K.
> 
> All they need to lose is 10 unlimited passholders to make it not break even. Or not sell 150 day tickets. Or 5 passholders and 40 weekend guests. That isn't that much, considering the additional mess that it created with parking. There are other obstacles besides cost here which, given the turnaround on Ramshead the week prior, I'm guessing were the deciding factor (finding the people to actually do the work, ski patrol, etc.) but I have a feeling that other mountains would have figured something out. I mean, how much credit would they get for having Nyberg & co. bumping chairs for a couple hours on the weekend? "Plans were to close, but we knew how much you wanted it, so everyone on the team chipped in."



When was the last time Kmart/Powdr did the season passholders a solid?  And I'm not talking about correcting some of their early mistakes.


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Probably not. Not even ASC or POWDR, I'd guess. But what's the cost of running 1 lift, 5 hours a day (10-3), for two days? 3 people staffing for 6 hours @ $20/ hour (including overhead,) call it $800 in staffing. 900hp motor, 12 hours of operation, $0.25/kw-hr, $2K. Throw in another $1K in there for whatever. Under $5K for the weekend. What the hell, double it. $10K.
> 
> All they need to lose is 10 unlimited passholders to make it not break even. Or not sell 150 day tickets. Or 5 passholders and 40 weekend guests. That isn't that much, considering the additional mess that it created with parking. There are other obstacles besides cost here which, given the turnaround on Ramshead the week prior, I'm guessing were the deciding factor (finding the people to actually do the work, ski patrol, etc.) but I have a feeling that other mountains would have figured something out. I mean, how much credit would they get for having Nyberg & co. bumping chairs for a couple hours on the weekend? "Plans were to close, but we knew how much you wanted it, so everyone on the team chipped in."



He was at Augusta.


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Can you measure the advertising factor as opposed to just straight profitablity? Don't have anything to back it up, but have to guess that model amounted to many more season passes being sold.





Riverskier said:


> I don't have an answer, but I will say that looking at day ticket sales/F&B revenue won't produce an accurate picture regardless of the result. There are so many other factors that can't easily be quantified. How many seasons passes did they sell simply because they could be used from October to June when the season at other mountains was 2+ months shorter? I would venture to guess quite a few. How many people came back to K mid-winter after enjoying the early/late season product? Real estate purchases due to long season? Skier visits based on K's reputation as the Beast that was created largely by their long seasons? I could go on, but the fact is there are many more variables at play in determining whether a late season strategy is profitable other than day to day profit and loss.



True,  but nowadays, even before the new K "early" shutdown of recent, aren't there more ski areas trying to go a bit longer than used to be, and as such spreading that already small market around to the point where some of those folks who might have bought a pass a K because of the longer season are now buying a pass at a different mountain that might be their home mountain or closer to their residence??

It's not all daysheet info for sure.  But the daysheets do play a significant roll in the final descsion of when to pull the plug for the season, especially in todays season pass world where many resorts now have you locked into the next season to get the best price MONTHS before you used to have to make that descision


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> True,  but nowadays, even before the new K "early" shutdown of recent, aren't there more ski areas trying to go a bit longer than used to be, and as such spreading that already small market around to the point where some of those folks who might have bought a pass a K because of the longer season are now buying a pass at a different mountain that might be their home mountain or closer to their residence??
> 
> It's not all daysheet info for sure.  But the daysheets do play a significant roll in the final descsion of when to pull the plug for the season, especially in todays season pass world where many resorts now have you locked into the next season to get the best price MONTHS before you used to have to make that descision



How did you make out with your beloved gameshow derby box?


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## skiadikt (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Serious question here.  Does anyone REALLY know if the "old" K model of late season "ski until total meltout" operations was VERY profitable vs. "just break even"???



fwiw here's an excerpt from an interview pres smith gave a few yrs ago:

Smith: I think we hit an interesting chord in the skier when we began to extend the season with our early opening and late closing.

I guess last but not least our understanding of the sport. I think that we had a good perception of what would satisfy the skier and the potential skier and one of those things is the ever-changing variety of terrain.

Q: What's your proudest accomplishment?

Smith: I guess understanding the sport and providing something for everyone, which culminated in 24 lifts and 141 trails, excluding Pico.

The Skye Ship (Route 4 to Skye Peak) was no means low on the list. It was the first heated lift. That replaced the original 3-1/2 mile gondola. The heated cabins and the art in the sky. We really had some interesting artists do the work on those cabins and between that and its being the fastest and most comfortable gondola in the world at that particular time.

Again, extending the season, I think Killington lent itself to the long season to begin with. A very well defined bowl (Killington basin) facing northeast, the highest elevation skiing in Vermont, it really was obvious that extending the season would be worthwhile.

Q: Was that done for marketing purposes because the number of skiers drop toward the end of the season?

Smith: No. Because if you extend the season on both ends you have many more days of income. We had mostly year-round employees to begin with. Every dollar that came in the extended shoulders of the season was a plus on the bottom line.


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## roark (Apr 12, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> Q: Was that done for marketing purposes because the number of skiers drop toward the end of the season?
> 
> Smith: No. Because if you extend the season on both ends you have many more days of income.* We had mostly year-round employees to begin with.* Every dollar that came in the extended shoulders of the season was a plus on the bottom line.


The bolded part kinda jumped at me...


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## Riverskier (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> True,  but nowadays, even before the new K "early" shutdown of recent, aren't there more ski areas trying to go a bit longer than used to be, and as such spreading that already small market around to the point where some of those folks who might have bought a pass a K because of the longer season are now buying a pass at a different mountain that might be their home mountain or closer to their residence??
> 
> It's not all daysheet info for sure.  But the daysheets do play a significant roll in the final descsion of when to pull the plug for the season, especially in todays season pass world where many resorts now have you locked into the next season to get the best price MONTHS before you used to have to make that descision



I don't have all of the answers, nor I am going to pretend to. :smile: I just strongly contend that there is a LOT more involved in determining whether a late season strategy is successful than simply looking at the daysheets. In fact I would go so far as to say that it is only the tip of the iceburg. I will leave the actual analysis to the resort operators. Boyne seems to think it is worthwhile though, and I think that is one of the biggest reasons that Boyne customers are for the most part happy. I mentioned this in another thread somewhere, but they pretty much have me locked in as a seasons pass holder with the October to May season. If they drastically reduced that, there are other viable options I would consider. While some may feel tied to the resorts, I suspect there are others that feel the same way, and that is not reflected on the daysheets.


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## 2knees (Apr 12, 2011)

Riverskier said:


> I don't have all of the answers, nor I am going to pretend to. :smile:




why not, everybody else has them......


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## deadheadskier (Apr 12, 2011)

roark said:


> The bolded part kinda jumped at me...



I have read that for Pres Smith, offering people year round jobs with benefits was a tremendous point of pride for him.


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

skiadikt said:


> fwiw here's an excerpt from an interview pres smith gave a few yrs ago:
> 
> Smith: I think we hit an interesting chord in the skier when we began to extend the season with our early opening and late closing.
> 
> ...



Can we atleast agree that the overall ski industry of 2011 is far different from the ski industry of the Pres Smith era??  I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one.  Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry.  Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.  

I'm not saying that it's the right thing or the wrong thing, just that it's a different thing


----------



## andyzee (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Can we atleast agree that the overall ski industry of 2011 is far different from the ski industry of the Pres Smith era?? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's the right thing or the wrong thing, just that it's a different thing


 
Can we atleast agree that the overall customer relations in 2011 are far dirrerent from the customer relations of the Pres Smith era? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations. 

I'm am saying that it is wrong the way people are treated, not only in the ski industry but overall, please press 1 if you disagree. What I am also saying is, do we just sit around and take it, or do we do something about it?


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> How did you make out with your beloved gameshow derby box?



Thanks for asking, we had a great time, received the coveted hand made by the GM fruit and cheese platter, and slid about as far as we had planned to this year


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## Black Phantom (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Thanks for asking, we had a great time, received the coveted hand made by the GM fruit and cheese platter, and slid about as far as we had planned to this year



Sweet. I looked on the Snow website but did not see any mention of the results. You guys put a hell of a lot of effort into it. I hope the platter came with some vino!


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## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Can we atleast agree that the overall customer relations in 2011 are far dirrerent from the customer relations of the Pres Smith era? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.
> 
> I'm am saying that it is wrong the way people are treated, not only in the ski industry but overall, please press 1 if you disagree. What I am also saying is, do we just sit around and take it, or do we do something about it?



Unfortunately (in many instances atleast) Andy, the ski industry, just like many sectors of industry nowadays is far more corporate than it used to be.  And it's the corporate nature verses the former "mom and pop" nature (and in a way when Pres Smith was running K, and even SKI Ltd it was still a "mom and pop" type business) that often dictates the descisions over the emotional descisions of the past.  If K gets say 500 complaints about this,  to Powdr, 500 may not be that many given that company wide they do millions of skier/rider vists per year.  Because bottomline is that until literally thousands of passholders leave K, and/or a year in and year out challenger in CENTRAL to SOUTHERN VT or NY tries to dramatically extend the season (and gathers the attention of the "lucrative" New York metropolitan area market) K is still the only game in town, within reasonable driving distance, for a reliable (atleast if the weather cooperates) 6 month season for that NY market, and it still gets some traffic from the Boston metro area too.

From a business side, the old addage that 2% of customers often create 98% of the problems tends to be true.  And just the fact that in online forums like this one, that K threads almost always become LONG ones speaks to the passion that so many have for K.  And good, bad, or indifferent, when you have a customer base that has that much passion for a place/product, most managers know that even if you do piss some of that core, passionate customer base off a bit, they'll almost always still come back.  And when they do come back, for the vast majority of the season, they're finding a product that in many ways is much better than what ASC was providing, even if that product is "only" available for a shorter time.  The view of things from that of a business owner verses that of a customer tends to be quite different, more often than the customer may think


----------



## mediamogul (Apr 12, 2011)

andyzee said:


> Can we atleast agree that the overall customer relations in 2011 are far dirrerent from the customer relations of the Pres Smith era? I'm sure the K regulars will tell you that the number of year round employees nowadays isn't what it used to be for one. Secondly, in the Pres Smith era, the ski industry was just that, the ski industry. Whereas nowadays(argueably attributable to Les Otten) the ski industry has a significant real estate component, that does play a roll in ski operations.
> 
> I'm am saying that it is wrong the way people are treated, not only in the ski industry but overall, please press 1 if you disagree. What I am also saying is, do we just sit around and take it, or do we do something about it?



I certainly agree. Also it seems as though this model of cookie cutter skiing in the vein of Okemo, Stratton, etc seems to be expanding and taking over. Endless condos, endless grooming, widening of trails, blunting all rough edges in the name of creating a very tame and processed ski experience. If K skiers jump ship on their mountain instead of resisting these changes then eventually all mountains may become this way. I for one am much more upset about Bear being closed than the May 1st closing. It is very apparent that the current owners have a very different view of skiers and skiing than in the Pres Smith era. K was a badass mountain under that ownership and I would like to see it get there again. K skiers should make their voices heard.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 12, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Sweet. I looked on the Snow website but did not see any mention of the results. You guys put a hell of a lot of effort into it. I hope the platter came with some vino!



No vino on the platter, but there were a couple of tokens that were usable at the winter brewer's fest this past Saturday  :beer:

And we've already got next years theme and some sled design ideas figured out! :lol:


----------



## mediamogul (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Unfortunately (in many instances atleast) Andy, the ski industry, just like many sectors of industry nowadays is far more corporate than it used to be.  And it's the corporate nature verses the former "mom and pop" nature (and in a way when Pres Smith was running K, and even SKI Ltd it was still a "mom and pop" type business) that often dictates the descisions over the emotional descisions of the past.  If K gets say 500 complaints about this,  to Powdr, 500 may not be that many given that company wide they do millions of skier/rider vists per year.  Because bottomline is that until literally thousands of passholders leave K, and/or a year in and year out challenger in CENTRAL to SOUTHERN VT or NY tries to dramatically extend the season (and gathers the attention of the "lucrative" New York metropolitan area market) K is still the only game in town, within reasonable driving distance, for a reliable (atleast if the weather cooperates) 6 month season for that NY market, and it still gets some traffic from the Boston metro area too.
> 
> From a business side, the old addage that 2% of customers often create 98% of the problems tends to be true.  And just the fact that in online forums like this one, that K threads almost always become LONG ones speaks to the passion that so many have for K.  And good, bad, or indifferent, when you have a customer base that has that much passion for a place/product, most managers know that even if you do piss some of that core, passionate customer base off a bit, they'll almost always still come back.  And when they do come back, for the vast majority of the season, they're finding a product that in many ways is much better than what ASC was providing, even if that product is "only" available for a shorter time.  The view of things from that of a business owner verses that of a customer tends to be quite different, more often than the customer may think



It would be interesting for someone to do a rough tally of how many skier visits per year could be attributed to season pass holders. Also, how many passholders does K currently have total? Does anyone have that statistic? This may give some perspective as to how much of K's capital and skier traffic is attributable to passholders.


----------



## andyzee (Apr 12, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Unfortunately (in many instances atleast) Andy, the ski industry, just like many sectors of industry nowadays is far more corporate than it used to be.  And it's the corporate nature verses the former "mom and pop" nature (and in a way when Pres Smith was running K, and even SKI Ltd it was still a "mom and pop" type business) that often dictates the descisions over the emotional descisions of the past.  If K gets say 500 complaints about this,  to Powdr, 500 may not be that many given that company wide they do millions of skier/rider vists per year.  Because bottomline is that until literally thousands of passholders leave K, and/or a year in and year out challenger in CENTRAL to SOUTHERN VT or NY tries to dramatically extend the season (and gathers the attention of the "lucrative" New York metropolitan area market) K is still the only game in town, within reasonable driving distance, for a reliable (atleast if the weather cooperates) 6 month season for that NY market, and it still gets some traffic from the Boston metro area too.
> 
> From a business side, the old addage that 2% of customers often create 98% of the problems tends to be true.  And just the fact that in online forums like this one, that K threads almost always become LONG ones speaks to the passion that so many have for K.  And good, bad, or indifferent, when you have a customer base that has that much passion for a place/product, most managers know that even if you do piss some of that core, passionate customer base off a bit, they'll almost always still come back.  And when they do come back, for the vast majority of the season, they're finding a product that in many ways is much better than what ASC was providing, even if that product is "only" available for a shorter time.  The view of things from that of a business owner verses that of a customer tends to be quite different, more often than the customer may think



I'm sorry doc, but I have to disagree. Corporations have been around for ages and they have listened.  Granted, they have grown in some respects and gotten rid of competition, but that doesn't mean they can't be swayed. I believe the bigger issue is that as a society we have become far to complacent. As a result, corporations now do as they please and get away with it due to attitudes such as the one you are now displaying (no offense intended). You say 500 complaints won't matter to a company such as this, what if those 500 complaints also state that they won't be buying season passes anymore, that would be in access of $500,000 that the corporation would not be making. That number could easily spread to others.

When Powdr came rolling into town, they figured they were the big guys on the block and can do whatever they please. Well guess what, when it came to getting permits to build out a villiage, that was quickly nixed by the town. I'm sure less than 500 people influenced this decision. Powdr quickly changed their tune and next year made ammends with the town and tried to worked with vendors to provide more business in the form of promotions.  Now, what happens if some of those same town folks (shop keepers) start seeing less traffic. What do you think they will do the next time Powdr applies for permits? No doc, sorry but I disagree, not only can we sway corporations, but we need to sway them to keep them from thinking they can do as they please.


----------



## snoseek (Apr 12, 2011)

Fact of the matter is you're not gonna get the old Killington you once knew back, thats life.....i feel for all you die hards, really I do. This would be a great opportunity to move around and become a regular somewhere else however. There are plenty of other options in the Northeast, unless you're somehow tied to the hill via property then by all means do it. I feel no needs to suggest where to go because y'all already probably have an idea.

If it geographically doesn't work for you and it's THAT important, then maybe you should work on a plan to relocate to somewhere else closer. You CAN still have a life/career somewhere else. If it truly is that important than you will take control of your skiing dollars vs. hoping Powdr will see the light.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 12, 2011)

I think this thread has plenty of evidence showing how those 500 complainers arent going to stop buying season passes. 

You guys have a 180 day season this year. Thats half the year. November 2nd (or was it 4th? either way) to May 1st. On the east coast. Supposedly the product has been great all year long. I know it was opening week when I was there. 

But Bear closed a week early you say! This travershamockery will not stand. The pass holders will revolt! 

...but not really,

Next up on the complaint list is the grooming. Then its somehow the death of the BMMC (which I think is dead for much more other than no booze being allowed from outside), then its the interconnect, then its lawsuits for all of the above. 

The point is you cant cry about everything as if its the greatest travesty in the history of skiing. The sport will never be the same because Bear shut down a week ahead of your schedule. 

You guys had Pres Smith 20 years ago. Stuff is different now. Im willing to bet insurance was alot cheaper back then. Terrain parks? Thats a bunch more snow to blow on top of the 141 trails you got there. Take all that terrain park snow and put it on Superstar. You get a glacier. Good for Pres he could justify having a bunch of year round employees, no one can disagree thats not the best business move in the SKI industry. 

Were things better for you back in the day? Of course they were. It was for me too, it was for everybody. That story was better back in the day. 

And everyones armchair quarterbacking about the costs of running a lift(s?), staff, lodge (even just tickets and bathrooms) is laughable. Yeah it only costs like 120 bucks man, a lifty, a ski patroller, and a guy at the bar man, thats all you need. Sure it does, two lift tickets and your golden.


----------



## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> I think this thread has plenty of evidence showing how those 500 complainers arent going to stop buying season passes.
> 
> You guys have a 180 day season this year. Thats half the year. November 2nd (or was it 4th? either way) to May 1st. On the east coast. Supposedly the product has been great all year long. I know it was opening week when I was there.
> 
> ...


Why did you ever crawl out of your hole?

Who the hell is crying here? Venting, complaining, sure. Crying, whining? That's a bit extreme. Maybe the lawsuit talk qualifies. But most are being fairly honest here. There's no question business levels have dropped. You think BMMC died before POWDR took over? Check the pictures from 2007 to 2008 to 2009. Party, a few people trying desperately to party, dead. People have moved on, people have dropped from unlimited to blackout, people have dropped F&B spending.

Again, what are we supposed to do if the operation of the place isn't to our liking, but it isn't enough to make another option better? Just stay quiet? If they lose less than 50 season passes because of closing Bear with full coverage, that will never show up in the books as clearly a result of their decision. It's too small, though enough to make it a bad decision financially. Bear being closed with that much snow had a significant impact on the vibe on the hill last weekend. Saturday should have been one of the best days of the season, perfect spring skiing weather, but the only good non-woods trail for spring skiing was Royal Flush, and that was half dirt. People were complaining on a 50° bluebird day with nearly full coverage. During the month most will buy season passes.

Maybe a good corporation would actually listen to their customers instead of just feeding them a line about business levels being too low to run another lift. You couldn't find a parking spot after 11. Lift lines were as long as many mid season days. I didn't even bother trying to get a beer and sit out on the deck because it was too packed. Instead I left and had a couple in the parking lot. Not enough people my ass.

Have a dialog. An honest conversation. Nobody's expecting them to blow a glacier to last to mid-June, most would be happy with a reasonable effort to make May 1st 80% of the time and then close when they have to. Close Monday-Thursday from next weekend out. Close Bear when the skiing quality drops below amazing to just really good. Fine. But every once in a while, show a tiny amount of appreciation for your passholders, don't just expect them to take what you give them and like it because the mountain has such a natural advantage over all others that they aren't going to leave.


----------



## neil (Apr 12, 2011)

They really do seem to shot themselves in the foot every year.

The walkway/start of the season was a good sign, but would it have killed them to just go "Bear was supposed to closed today, but the snow is so good that we can't do it. One more weekend!".

Would have created a lot of goodwill I think.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 12, 2011)

neil said:


> They really do seem to shot themselves in the foot every year.
> 
> The walkway/start of the season was a good sign, but would it have killed them to just go "Bear was supposed to closed today, but the snow is so good that we can't do it. One more weekend!".
> 
> Would have created a lot of goodwill I think.



Under promise and over deliver.  Always a great business decision IMO.

Last seasons closing was the antithesis of that.

You know, maybe the complaints will actually be heard and K will stay open through the 8th.  That would be sweet for me.  Killington is a much easier drive than Sugarloaf, even from coastal New Hampshire.


----------



## khjr (Apr 12, 2011)

WWF-VT said:


> I can't wait for the Harvard Business Review case study that examines how POWDR modifies its business model based upon the threat of a lawsuit from bitching season pass holders.



I can tell you from personal experience that an uncontested mediated divorce can easily cost over $15K in legal fees.  How much can it cost POWDR to defend itself, and pay damages if the suit proceeds to the extent of a settlement, either in or out of court?  How much do you think it costs to keep a lift open for a weekend, or to be more specific in the season pass contracts?

Those are the makings of a business case right there.

The lawsuit has to happen at least once for the threat to be perceived as having measurable probability (i.e. risk weighted into a business case).  When you look at other lawsuits that have prevailed (use your imagination), this one's not that far-fetched.


----------



## Edd (Apr 12, 2011)

Of the many K complaint threads, this is one of the most mature I can remember.  Pretty straight talk, much of which is reasonable on both sides.  Hope Kmart takes note of this.


----------



## WWF-VT (Apr 12, 2011)

khjr said:


> I can tell you from personal experience that an uncontested mediated divorce can easily cost over $15K in legal fees.  How much can it cost POWDR to defend itself, and pay damages if the suit proceeds to the extent of a settlement, either in or out of court?  How much do you think it costs to keep a lift open for a weekend, or to be more specific in the season pass contracts?
> 
> Those are the makings of a business case right there.
> 
> The lawsuit has to happen at least once for the threat to be perceived as having measurable probability (i.e. risk weighted into a business case).  When you look at other lawsuits that have prevailed (use your imagination), this one's not that far-fetched.



Can I suggest a lawyer to take the case....?


----------



## mondeo (Apr 12, 2011)

khjr said:


> I can tell you from personal experience that an uncontested mediated divorce can easily cost over $15K in legal fees. How much can it cost POWDR to defend itself, and pay damages if the suit proceeds to the extent of a settlement, either in or out of court? How much do you think it costs to keep a lift open for a weekend, or to be more specific in the season pass contracts?
> 
> Those are the makings of a business case right there.
> 
> The lawsuit has to happen at least once for the threat to be perceived as having measurable probability (i.e. risk weighted into a business case). When you look at other lawsuits that have prevailed (use your imagination), this one's not that far-fetched.


You're assuming a judge wouldn't take one look at the complaint and issue a summary judgement.


----------



## khjr (Apr 12, 2011)

oakapple said:


> What you seem to be saying is: for all its faults, you still haven't found a better option than Killington. I mean, if there were something better, a far more sensible approach would be to take your skiing dollars elsewhere.
> 
> I mean, if I'm served a poor dinner at a local restaurant, I don't sue or complain about the business model. I just go to another restaurant next time. There are plenty of great restaurants. I don't waste time bemoaning the bad ones.
> 
> All of this griping about Killington suggests a contradiction: although it's not what we want, it's still better than most (or indeed all) of the alternatives.



Well said, and I agree with much of your argument.

The difference here, I think, is that ski resorts seem to be more like an oligopoly (for some of us, Killington is a local utility!)  Whether you agree entirely or not with that premise, it’s clear that they’re not subject to the same degree of free market forces that restaurants are – there just isn’t enough competition readily accessible to the buyer.

That can become a one-sided relationship pretty quickly.  All I’m talking about here is a mechanism of putting some balance back into that relationship.


----------



## khjr (Apr 13, 2011)

mondeo said:


> You're assuming a judge wouldn't take one look at the complaint and issue a summary judgement.



There’s definitely the potential for a summary judgment.  It could easily take POWDR years to get one, however.  

For example, the 2010 summary judgment dismissing the case of the lifetime pass holders took roughly three years to achieve.  I don’t claim to be a contingency lawyer specializing in class action lawsuits (certainly no Lionel Hutz!) but, to this layman, it appears that the merits of the aforementioned lawsuit were even weaker than those which we’re discussing now.  

All the while, POWDR would have the lawsuit pending (hanging over its head), with legal expenses and potential loss factored into its business model.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 13, 2011)

khjr said:


> There’s definitely the potential for a summary judgment.  It could easily take POWDR years to get one, however.
> 
> For example, the 2010 summary judgment dismissing the case of the lifetime pass holders took roughly three years to achieve.  I don’t claim to be a contingency lawyer specializing in class action lawsuits (certainly no Lionel Hutz!) but, to this layman, it appears that the merits of the aforementioned lawsuit were even weaker than those which we’re discussing now.
> 
> All the while, POWDR would have the lawsuit pending (hanging over its head), with legal expenses and potential loss factored into its business model.



Are you REALLY trying to say that a PRIVATE company closing Bear a bit early and choosing to shut down before all the snow melts out is even remotely similiar to the case that many "lifetime" bond/passholders made about an agreement that was initially made 40+ years and multiple changes of owners ago??  And as such legal action should be considered??


----------



## RootDKJ (Apr 13, 2011)

drjeff said:


> Are you REALLY trying to say that a PRIVATE company closing Bear a bit early and choosing to shut down before all the snow melts out is even remotely similiar to the case that many "lifetime" bond/passholders made about an agreement that was initially made 40+ years and multiple changes of owners ago??  And as such legal action should be considered??


----------



## oakapple (Apr 13, 2011)

khjr said:


> Ski resorts seem to be more like an oligopoly (for some of us, Killington is a local utility!)  Whether you agree entirely or not with that premise, it’s clear that they’re not subject to the same degree of free market forces that restaurants are – there just isn’t enough competition readily accessible to the buyer.


I agree with you, to a considerable extent. Killington has some natural advantages (size, weather, elevation) that have nothing to do with who operates it. Even with the most enlightened management, most places could never be Killington. Most of its infrastructure (lifts, trails, lodges, snowmaking, parking) predated current management, and couldn't easily be duplicated elsewhere. Even if POWDR never spent another cent on capital improvements, Killington would retain these advantages for many years to come. Of course, there is also geography: the only other even remotely comparable ski areas are a considerable distance away.



khjr said:


> There’s definitely the potential for a summary judgment.  It could easily take POWDR years to get one, however.
> 
> For example, the 2010 summary judgment dismissing the case of the lifetime pass holders took roughly three years to achieve.  I don’t claim to be a contingency lawyer specializing in class action lawsuits (certainly no Lionel Hutz!) but, to this layman, it appears that the merits of the aforementioned lawsuit were even weaker than those which we’re discussing now.
> 
> All the while, POWDR would have the lawsuit pending (hanging over its head), with legal expenses and potential loss factored into its business model.


The lifetime pass holders, although they ultimately lost, had a valid point: they were promised lifetime access. No one was ever promised that Bear Mountain would remain open for a couple of extra weeks. Throughout the ski industry, large mountains gradually close terrain at the tail end of the season; it is far more common than not. It's not going to take three years for a court to figure that out.

In the end, all you'd gain is a few more sentences of fine print on next year's season pass application, making clearer what is already implied: they can close whenever the hell they want.


----------



## dmc (Apr 13, 2011)

oakapple said:


> The lifetime pass holders, although they ultimately lost, had a valid point: they were promised lifetime access.



What does a "lifetime" mean?  Life of the company? Life of the ski area? Life of the owner?

Always seemed ambiguous to me...


----------



## oakapple (Apr 13, 2011)

dmc said:


> What does a "lifetime" mean?  Life of the company? Life of the ski area? Life of the owner?
> 
> Always seemed ambiguous to me...



That's why they lost.


----------



## dmc (Apr 13, 2011)

oakapple said:


> That's why they lost.



Caveat emptor...


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 13, 2011)

dmc said:


> Caveat emptor...



So I guess all these dudes at Magic buying their shares are just waiting to get the inevitable backside sausage?

Someone better tell them quickly.


----------



## threecy (Apr 13, 2011)

It seems odd to me to try to scapegoat 'corporations' for some of the decisions made at Killington and then compare to Pres Smith when, in fact, Killington was corporately owned and operated when he was there.


----------



## mondeo (Apr 13, 2011)

threecy said:


> It seems odd to me to try to scapegoat 'corporations' for some of the decisions made at Killington and then compare to Pres Smith when, in fact, Killington was corporately owned and operated when he was there.


Doesn't seem odd to me. People love to scapegoat corporations whenever possible. They're faceless entities.


----------



## roark (Apr 13, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> So I guess all these dudes at Magic buying their shares are just waiting to get the inevitable backside sausage?
> 
> Someone better tell them quickly.


Similar to MRG a share at Magic doesn't get you much more than the satisfaction of helping to sustain the mountain and a vote in shareholder meetings. No lifetime pass.


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 13, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Doesn't seem odd to me. People love to scapegoat corporations whenever possible. They're faceless entities.



Wasn't SKI a publicly traded company with a visible Management Team and a Board of Directors?

Take a look at this website and tell me you do not want to puke.

www.powdr.com


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## thorski (Apr 13, 2011)

I get it now. Powdr closed K early to help reduce their carbon footprint. It's all part of their 
*enviromental vision*


----------



## neil (Apr 13, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> So I guess all these dudes at Magic buying their shares are just waiting to get the inevitable backside sausage?
> 
> Someone better tell them quickly.



There's no lifetime passes involved in Magic shares AFAIK


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 13, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> So I guess all these dudes at Magic buying their shares are just waiting to get the inevitable backside sausage?
> 
> Someone better tell them quickly.



The Magic deal gets even worse. The original owner who wasnt up to snuff keeps close to a 50% stake, and don't you only get a discounted season pass unless you buy like 4 or 5 shares? 

Magic is a cool little area, but Im not bailing out some owner...


----------



## Nick (Apr 13, 2011)

How much bigger is POWDR than the American Skiing Company was?


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## Nick (Apr 13, 2011)

I was on the WIkipedia page, did you know: 



> In 1980, Les Otten, the son of a German immigrant, purchased the Sunday River resort for $840,000 from the Sherburne Corporation. Sunday River included one double chair and a couple of surface lifts at the time. Sunday River slowly grew to become New England's second most popular resort in the 1990s.



Sounds like a deal to me!


----------



## drjeff (Apr 13, 2011)

Nick said:


> How much bigger is POWDR than the American Skiing Company was?



One key difference, is that Powdr ISN'T tying to self develop multi-hundred unit realestate properties at all of it's resorts simultaneously


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 13, 2011)

thorski said:


> I get it now. Powdr closed K early to help reduce their carbon footprint. It's all part of their
> *enviromental vision*


----------



## threecy (Apr 13, 2011)

Nick said:


> Sounds like a deal to me!



Not only did he get Sunday River from Sherburne Corp. for what today seems like a steal, but he was able to buy it with money loaned by the Sherburne Corp.

More about Les:  Les Otten Biography - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com


----------



## drjeff (Apr 13, 2011)

threecy said:


> Not only did he get Sunday River from Sherburne Corp. for what today seems like a steal, but he was able to buy it with money loaned by the Sherburne Corp.
> 
> More about Les:  Les Otten Biography - NewEnglandSkiHistory.com



There's no if's, and's or but's about it.  Les will go down in the annals of ski history as a major figure.  For some he will be viewed as a pioneering visionary, for others as someone who corporatized and argueably destroyed some of the "soul of skiing" but either way, he likely changed the ski industry more than any one in the late 20th century


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 13, 2011)

Nick said:


> How much bigger is POWDR than the American Skiing Company was?



Private company that does not release financials. Heck, Killington does not release skier visits.

The CEO got his money the typical old fashioned way. Think Joe for Oil...


----------



## skiadikt (Apr 13, 2011)

drjeff said:


> There's no if's, and's or but's about it.  Les will go down in the annals of ski history as a major figure.  For some he will be viewed as a pioneering visionary, for others as someone who corporatized and argueably destroyed some of the "soul of skiing" but either way, he likely changed the ski industry more than any one in the late 20th century



but having come from killington, the one thing he did do was maintain, if not understand the culture. the company did not go belly up from late season skiing but as you stated above from trying to self develop multi-hundred unit real estate properties at all of it's resorts simultaneously. losing the late season was a casualty of that.


----------



## WJenness (Apr 13, 2011)

Is Calvin running POWDR these days?






-w


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## Black Phantom (Apr 13, 2011)

WJenness said:


> Is Calvin running POWDR these days?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is beautiful.:beer:


----------



## mlkrgr (Apr 13, 2011)

Heads up to those who got in on K's facebook 2 for 1 deal: the coupons are valid for all of next season too since they say they are valid until the end of the 2011-12 season. This was confirmed by K on Facebook.


----------



## Black Phantom (Apr 14, 2011)

mlkrgr said:


> Heads up to those who got in on K's facebook 2 for 1 deal: the coupons are valid for all of next season too since they say they are valid until the end of the 2011-12 season. This was confirmed by K on Facebook.



Poor bastard that made that typo will be or already is out the door quicker than they can shut down the Bear lifts.


----------



## TheBEast (Apr 14, 2011)

mlkrgr said:


> Heads up to those who got in on K's facebook 2 for 1 deal: the coupons are valid for all of next season too since they say they are valid until the end of the 2011-12 season. This was confirmed by K on Facebook.



Looks like they're gone.  Link isn't on my page any more. 8-(


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## UVSHTSTRM (Apr 14, 2011)

Scotty said:


> Well maybe everyone who enjoys Killington and wants them to stay open should take their money and go some where else if I don't like a company then I don't shop their,you could all invest in Magic and then they be able to put on more better conditions or buy your own hill in a snow belt and run it how you want



Scotty, I am usually the last person to complain about grammah (not the best wordsmith), but man your posts are nearly impossible to read at times....at the very least tough to read without laughing.  

LET THE FLOGGING AND CRITIQUE OF UVSHTSTRM (The Grammer Dink) BEGIN


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## mondeo (Apr 14, 2011)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> LET THE FLOGGING AND CRITIQUE OF UVSHTSTRM (The Grammer Dink) BEGIN


LOUD NOISES!


----------



## 2knees (Apr 15, 2011)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Scotty, I am usually the last person to complain about grammah (not the best wordsmith), but man your posts are nearly impossible to read at times....at the very least tough to read without laughing.
> 
> LET THE FLOGGING AND CRITIQUE OF UVSHTSTRM (The Grammer Dink) BEGIN



I thought he was an alias from TGR for the longest time.


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## 2knees (Apr 15, 2011)

I guess the extra coin to stay open longer went towards a brand new shiny multi level restaurant/conference hall on the peak.

I'm guessing most of the k die hards would've taken a longer season/more bear needles over this.



http://www.killington.com/winter/beast/blog/authors/tom/killington-resort-announces


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## mondeo (Apr 15, 2011)

2knees said:


> I guess the extra coin to stay open longer went towards a brand new shiny multi level restaurant/conference hall on the peak.
> 
> I'm guessing most of the k die hards would've taken a longer season/more bear needles over this.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing the $10K or less it would've taken to run Bear an extra week wouldn't put a dent in a $7 million building.

I'm glad they're doing the peak lodge, if they tear it down this summer they can open up Cascade Headwall earlier when they don't have to clear one of the lodge's walls off the trail. Plus in the long term it will help pay for other improvements.


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## Nick (Apr 15, 2011)

Did you guys see any of the improvements, looks like a replacement of the peak restaurant: 

http://news.alpinezone.com/94061/


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## andyzee (Apr 15, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I'm guessing the $10K or less it would've taken to run Bear an extra week wouldn't put a dent in a $7 million building.
> 
> I'm glad they're doing the peak lodge, if they tear it down this summer they can open up Cascade Headwall earlier when they don't have to clear one of the lodge's walls off the trail. Plus in the long term it will help pay for other improvements.



Yep, Peak needed replacement, was a real eyesore..


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## Nick (Apr 15, 2011)

I hadn't been up there in a few years, it was really nice way back when. Or at least as nice as a ski lodget can be with people beating the crap out of it with ski boots


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## mondeo (Apr 15, 2011)

andyzee said:


>


Looks like that pic was taken before the wall blew off, too.


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## andyzee (Apr 15, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Looks like that pic was taken before the wall blew off, too.



Closing day, May 6, 2007


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## 2knees (Apr 15, 2011)

closing day 2007 was awesome.  I doubt superstar has had better lines since then.






not my pic but the line on skiers left was gonzo.  remember it like yesterday.


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## mister moose (Apr 16, 2011)

2knees said:


> closing day 2007 was awesome.



<------See avitar.


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