# Terminal Intermediate?



## hammer (Feb 15, 2006)

Does anyone recall the time that they felt they had transitioned from "intemediate" skiing to more "advanced" skiing?  Do you remember one or more things that you started doing that caused this to happen?

I may be just a little impatient (this is my 3rd season going skiing on a regular basis), but while I've been happy going skiing I haven't been too happy with my skiing lately.  Transitioning to smoother turns that don't take as much out of my legs has eluded me so far...

I think I need a lesson...


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## ctenidae (Feb 15, 2006)

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

Me, I was an expert the moment I figured out how to click into my bindings without falling over.


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## andyzee (Feb 15, 2006)

A lesson will help, but won't do much good without plenty of practice. Get in as many days as you can. Also, in my case one big milestone was new skis. I had beginner skis and then purchased skis that were rated for Intermediate/Advanced and the first day on these skis I saw a huge improvement.Once again, this is after plenty of practice on the beginner skis.


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## Robbski (Feb 15, 2006)

There are a limited set of factors that will impact your skiing progress.  Take a hard look at each of them

Technique, equipment, conditioning and mindset are the ones that come to mind.

Most will tell you that technique is paramount and obviously lessons and practice are the keys t improviong technique.  I agree that this is where you wil get the most bang for the buck.  

However, take those lessons on the right skis and a pair of boots that have been carefully fitted and you have given yourself some real advantages.  (I got to a point a few years ago where a great skier could have ripped on my old equipment but I skied a hell of a lot better after I replaced it with better stuff.)

Conditioning lets you make the moves that you envision and helps you keep it up all day.  Tired = sloppy = faceplant, yardsale, injury.  

A confident mindset helps you maintain speed and work your technique as opposed to falling into the "oh crap what did I get myself into and how am I gonna survive stance" that guarantees all kinds of trouble.

Oh, and keep at it and keep having fun.


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## Skier75 (Feb 15, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> Does anyone recall the time that they felt they had transitioned from "intemediate" skiing to more "advanced" skiing?  Do you remember one or more things that you started doing that caused this to happen?
> 
> I may be just a little impatient (this is my 3rd season going skiing on a regular basis), but while I've been happy going skiing I haven't been too happy with my skiing lately.  Transitioning to smoother turns that don't take as much out of my legs has eluded me so far...
> 
> I think I need a lesson...



Not really sure where the "transion" happened or if I can even say that it has happened. Both my husband and I were in the same position a few years ago, that you are in. By taking a lesson, watching others, and skiing with more advanced skiers all have helped. We still stay mostly on intermediate slopes but venture out onto the black and even a few double blacks occasionally(but only when conditions are really good). I don't feel confortable skiing the blacks so much this year, too much ice.

Believe it or not, so I'm told, that you just have to do it. My son-in-law convinced me a few years ago that if you don't push yourself just a little bit, then you'll just stay where you are, you just have to go over that little bit of comfort zone. I'm not saying go to the extreme, but try to find a black that's just about the next step up from a blue and take it easy. I'm one of the biggest chicken's there is. So that's what I did, push myself just a little bit more, and now I can do just about anything, of course conditions are taken into account. One of my problems were that I wasn't pointing my skis enoough into the fall line, I was fighting it too much. All I can say is that lessons do help quite a bit too, then practice, practice, pratice. But practice on confortable slopes, then go just that little bit further....see what happens.


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## Greg (Feb 15, 2006)

Ah yeah - the upper intermediate plateau... Just remember, it's all about the miles. The only way to break through is to continue to ski more. You need to be skiing double digit days each season at least to see reasonable gains each season. My season goal is twenty+ days. Also try to ski longer days. Not saying you need to ski from 8 am til close, but aim for 5-6+ hours each outing if possible. Beyond that, take a lesson - that may help. I think an even more effective approach is to try to ski with others who are better than you. AZ is a great resource for finding really good skiers that will push your limits and offer advice on slope if you want it.

Finally, the right equipment can go a long way; though I'm a firm believer that equipment doesn't make a skier, but crappy equipment can keep someone from progressing efficiently. Advanced level equipment is more demanding and will in a sense force you to ski more agressively. Be sure you're fit properly in your boots. Go see *Jeff Bokum* if you have any doubts. My skiing has improved almost immediately after a three hour visit with Jeff and being correctly fit in the right sized boots. Most boot fitters are hacks. I would say I've probably only heard a half dozen names in the Northeast of guys that really know what they are doing. Greg Hoffman (Green Mountian Orthotics, Stratton), Jeff Bokum (S&W, Concord) and Keith Holmquist (The Pro, Hunter) are the ones I hear most.

My breakthrough into a lower advanced category came last season. I'm finally able to comfortably keep my hands up and out and really drive them down the fall line. Good hand position is key. Presumably you know how to turn well on most slopes being an upper intermediate skier so once you can confidently keep those hands up and out, the rest will follow. Good luck.


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## tekweezle (Feb 15, 2006)

> I think I need a lesson...



not just any lesson, take a level 7 or 8 lesson and maybe go to the moguls or the terrain park.  they can teach you things to help you ski more efficiently so you will be less tired by the end of the day.

demo some shorter skis.  maybe some twin tips.  for me, my skis probably were holding me back a little because they were long and all beat up.  

watch the olympics and get some pointers from what the pros do.  i was watching the slalom last night and watching those guys make those short turns was beautiful.

one of the things that kept me as a "terminal intermediate" was fear.  fear of going too fast and not being able to control my speed.  learning to control my speed has helped me overcome the fear.


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## hammer (Feb 15, 2006)

Thanks for all of the input...I can always count on help from the folks here!  :beer:

Getting out on a regular basis is a challenge, and I do tend to have a lot of family time on my ski trips so I don't get a chance to push myself as much.

Unfortunately, what's been mentioned about fear definitely factors into my skiing; I am not as bothered by going down steeper blues and easy blacks, but I do need to get more comfortable with going faster.

A visit to Jeff to see if I can get a better fit out of my boots is on my to-do list as well...


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## dmc (Feb 15, 2006)

Go to Tuckerman Ravine and take some turns in the bowl..  that will jar you out of the intermediate thng.. 

Seriously..


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## JimG. (Feb 15, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> Ah yeah - the upper intermediate plateau... Just remember, it's all about the miles. The only way to break through is to continue to ski more. You need to be skiing double digit days each season at least to see reasonable gains each season. My season goal is twenty+ days. Also try to ski longer days. Not saying you need to ski from 8 am til close, but aim for 5-6+ hours each outing if possible. Beyond that, take a lesson - that may help. I think an even more effective approach is to try to ski with others who are better than you. AZ is a great resource for finding really good skiers that will push your limits and offer advice on slope if you want it.
> 
> Finally, the right equipment can go a long way; though I'm a firm believer that equipment doesn't make a skier, but crappy equipment can keep someone from progressing efficiently. Advanced level equipment is more demanding and will in a sense force you to ski more agressively. Be sure you're fit properly in your boots. Go see *Jeff Bokum* if you have any doubts. My skiing has improved almost immediately after a three hour visit with Jeff and being correctly fit in the right sized boots. Most boot fitters are hacks. I would say I've probably only heard a half dozen names in the Northeast of guys that really know what they are doing. Greg Hoffman (Green Mountian Orthotics, Stratton), Jeff Bokum (S&W, Concord) and Keith Holmquist (The Pro, Hunter) are the ones I hear most.
> 
> My breakthrough into a lower advanced category came last season. I'm finally able to comfortably keep my hands up and out and really drive them down the fall line. Good hand position is key. Presumably you know how to turn well on most slopes being an upper intermediate skier so once you can confidently keep those hands up and out, the rest will follow. Good luck.



Lots of mileage is key...the more you ski, the better you get. Same as any other sport or skill; practice makes perfect.


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## hammer (Feb 15, 2006)

dmc said:
			
		

> Go to Tuckerman Ravine and take some turns in the bowl..  that will jar you out of the intermediate thng..
> 
> Seriously..


That'll jar me in more ways than one.  

It would be entertaining for the rest of you, though...  :lol:


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## Sky (Feb 15, 2006)

Great thread...and excellent responses form everybody.  What a great resource this is.  Greg...I'm a convert. *smirk*

Egad, I remember how angsty I was about taking my first lesson.  But what a difference it made.  Lessons, and practice between lessons is a must.

Along with the Lessons...and this helped me...read "The All Mountain Skier".  It breaks down the skills and gives you drills to practice, tells you what to look for when your doing things correctly.  Certainly no repalcement for lessosn and time on snow...but also certainly an enhancement thereto.  I read it a few summers ago and re-read it prior to skiing.  Amizon/Barnes and Noble etc...about $20.

Up-to-date gear!  I bought new boots and new skis about six seasons ago (after demo-ing) and the confidence boost was amazing.  The gear was not top-o-the-line...but it fit and was the appropriate "skill level" for me.

Stay on appropriate slopes and work your skills.  Forget about bagging trophy trails ("I hit the summit!!") mentality.  Any trail that puts you in "survival" mode is keeping you in old habits.

Good Luck!


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## tekweezle (Feb 15, 2006)

definitely go skiing out west if you haven't yet preferebly on uncrowded weekdays.  it can change your perspective on skiing entirely.

to be able to cruise for miles without having to get on a lift will allow you to work on your technique.


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## Marc (Feb 15, 2006)

tekweezle said:
			
		

> definitely go skiing out west if you haven't yet preferebly on uncrowded weekdays.  it can change your perspective on skiing entirely.
> 
> to be able to cruise for miles without having to get on a lift will allow you to work on your technique.



This is kind of a big undertaking and not necessary to get over the intermediate plateau.  If anything, skiing in the East in tight trees and varying surface conditions will only serve to hone advanced skills.

My rec?  Aside from listening to what everyone else has said so far, read this article by our very on Steve aka Riverc0il:

http://www.thesnowway.com/crossingover.htm

Continue to have fun.  It will be the only way you will continue to improve and not be frustrated.

:beer:


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## Marc (Feb 15, 2006)

PS

I started skiing five years ago and it was only my fourth year into my fifth that I started becoming really comfortable calling myself a Type III skier.

Now I feel comfortable doing so.  Although the video Andyzee is going to post sooner or later   may confirm or disconfirm this notion.


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## tekweezle (Feb 15, 2006)

> This is kind of a big undertaking and not necessary to get over the intermediate plateau. If anything, skiing in the East in tight trees and varying surface conditions will only serve to hone advanced skills.



not necessary but certainly can help.  the toughest thing I find is fighting boredom.  skiing the same old trails at smallish resorts. Doing the 1 day or weekend trip grind.  fighting with the crowds at the liftlines to go on trails that are not very long.  weaving down crowded slopes like it;s rush hour.  all these factor into your enjoyment of the sport.  

believe it or not, you can become a better skier by going to more technically challenging mountains.  it helped me immensely oto take my first trip to Jackson hole.  steeper pitches, longer runs, mmoguls everywhere-skiing that mountain just makes you better.


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## WICKEDBUMPER (Feb 15, 2006)

Its time you take a trip out west.  You need some high quality mileage now.  After my first trip, I came back a different skier.  Light years ahead from where I was pre-trip. Its ski-life changing if you push your envelope. 
But beware...dont let coming back east bum you out.


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## ski_adk (Feb 15, 2006)

Here's my list of suggestions (these totally worked for me):

1.  Buy a season pass:  Get out and get out often!!!  I bought my first season pass last year to Jiminy and was able to get around 30 days on-snow last year.  What a difference it made!!!  I was able to experience just about any East Coast condition possible and it really enhanced my skill set.  You'll be more willing to take advantage of those crappy days when they're already paid for.  In return, you'll gain valuable experience that will make you a better skier.

2.  Take lessons:  Good instructors have drills that will get you to feel something in your skis that you haven't felt before.  Many ski clubs offer free lessons to members (http://OCskiclub.org for example in the capital district has an awesome instruction program) as a way of maintaining a strong member base.  They can help you expand your comfort zone and build your self-confidence on the slopes.

3.  Decent Equipment:  Better technology does make a difference.  I didn't really take off until I bought myself a decent pair of skis.  This year, I made another major progression by obtaining new, stiffer boots.  You don't have to buy the latest and greatest for a fortune either.  Ask around for a good all-mountain carving ski to get started.

4.  Take advantage of "hero snow" conditions:  Hero snow is when the temperatures are nice and the snow is set up nice and soft.  It really allows you to experiment with edging technique (these were the days I made my first "railroad carves").  You'll really be able to feel your skis hook up and bend and this is a great opportunity to feel them out.

5.  STAY POSITIVE:  Focus on the good things you accomplished that day.  Negativity can really kill your confidence and make you you're own worst enemy.

And oh yeah, I second the advice about "The All-Mountain Skier."  Reading that book really put skiing technique into terms I can understand and use.

One note on getting more comfortable with speed.  Whatever you do, keep pushing forward.  *DO NOT GET IN THE BACKSEAT!!!*  I had to learn that one the hard way.  Commit to the turn and push your weight forward.  Concentrate on your turn shape and size, keep a tall upper body and your hands out up and in front.

Now, get after it!


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## riverc0il (Feb 15, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> Getting out on a regular basis is a challenge, and I do tend to have a lot of family time on my ski trips so I don't get a chance to push myself as much.


quite frankly, that is a problem if you want to push past a technique plateau.  can you get out to do some night skiing at a local mountain?  you live in MA, so you should be able to score a mid-week pass to a local ski area with night skiing.  two nights of three hours a week will dramatically help your snow totals.  you don't have to go to the big mountains to work on your skills, small local hills are actually ideal for lots of laps.



			
				hammer said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, what's been mentioned about fear definitely factors into my skiing; I am not as bothered by going down steeper blues and easy blacks, but I do need to get more comfortable with going faster.


speed has nothing to do with good technique.  any one can go fast, so whatever to that (i am a former racer so read that comment with that in mind).  good technique is slowing down and really working the minute details.  small and slow quick and agile turns with perfect technique is very hard to do, it is something i work on constantly.  speed is over rated, real good technique needs to be worked on at all speeds, especially slow speeds.

more time on snow and more lessons are the best way to go.  i downplay the effect of equipment on improving technique.  while people are developing, they rarely push past the limits of their equipment from what i have seen.  but once you push past that plateau, you will definitely want the better equipment to speed you along as an expert.  the worst thing you could do as an intermediate is get equipment that is beyond your ability, it will punish you.  and you don't want to buy upper intermediate equipment that you will just pass by in a year or two.

three years is not a long time, btw.  i started skiing when i was 4.  i was a terminal intermediate until age 20 when i joined a college ski team and got my technique handed to me.  someone to teach me and time on the snow made the difference.

don't forget to watch others.  i learned how to ski bumps by immitating other skiers, studying what they did both right and wrong.


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## tekweezle (Feb 15, 2006)

> Unfortunately, what's been mentioned about fear definitely factors into my skiing; I am not as bothered by going down steeper blues and easy blacks, but I do need to get more comfortable with going faster.
> 
> speed has nothing to do with good technique. any one can go fast, so whatever to that (i am a former racer so read that comment with that in mind). good technique is slowing down and really working the minute details. small and slow quick and agile turns with perfect technique is very hard to do, it is something i work on constantly. speed is over rated, real good technique needs to be worked on at all speeds, especially slow speeds.



what I meant was that when I was in my "plateaued intermediate state", I was literally paralyzed by the thought of going too fast down the trail.  every movement I made was a skidding, breaking movement to slow myself down.   barely acceptable on easy blues, not so on black trails.  naturally, i got tired fast and my ski days were usually cut short.  as I was acquiring better technique, things didn;t turn around for me until after I got over the fear and stopped the constant breaking and started using my turns to slow me down instead.  I can still ski fast but it;s a controlled fast now.  I usually count the number of turns I make going down steep slopes.


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## Skier75 (Feb 15, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> Finally, the right equipment can go a long way; though I'm a firm believer that equipment doesn't make a skier, but crappy equipment can keep someone from progressing efficiently. Advanced level equipment is more demanding and will in a sense force you to ski more agressively. Be sure you're fit properly in your boots.
> 
> My breakthrough into a lower advanced category came last season. I'm finally able to comfortably keep my hands up and out and really drive them down the fall line. Good hand position is key. Presumably you know how to turn well on most slopes being an upper intermediate skier so once you can confidently keep those hands up and out, the rest will follow. Good luck.



Yeah, I hear you there....first off after I got my boots to fit properly, that was one of the best things I could've done to help improve my skiing. Next is the hand position, that's one of my worst culprits as well as the "back seat thing...." I vary between these things and when I do, that makes for a bad day of skiing for me. I'm soo bad at dropping my hands....I keep praticing keeping them up, but it still gets me. The "back seat thing" is a fall-back(no pun intended)   for me for saftey. When I start going too fast I squat and push really hard to slow down, I know that's not the way to do, it but its works for me.


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## RISkier (Feb 15, 2006)

I shouldn't even chip in here given my skill (or lack thereof) level.  Lessons have really helped me but I'm in real need of mileage.  As to lessons, it seemed early on lessons were good.  Period.  But we've gotten to the point where we find HUGE differences between instructors.  Group lessons can give you a private or semi-private relatively cheap.  My wife and I did several group lessons at Stowe as part of a package and it was always either just my wife and I, or 1 other person who was at our level.  But the quality ranged from excellent, to what seemed like a canned package.  I suspect you're about at the same level as we are and would likely be in the highest group lessons.  At minimum I'd request a PSIA level 3 and I'd ask here for recommended names at resorts you might go to.


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## awf170 (Feb 15, 2006)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> speed is over rated



   
Take that back! Speed overrated, whats wrong with you :wink:


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## snowmonster (Feb 15, 2006)

ski_adk said:
			
		

> Here's my list of suggestions (these totally worked for me):
> 
> 1.  Buy a season pass:  Get out and get out often!!!  I bought my first season pass last year to Jiminy and was able to get around 30 days on-snow last year.  What a difference it made!!!  I was able to experience just about any East Coast condition possible and it really enhanced my skill set.  You'll be more willing to take advantage of those crappy days when they're already paid for.  In return, you'll gain valuable experience that will make you a better skier.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with all of these. I actually did just about all these things this year. I started skiing in February last year -- but after my first day out, I was hooked and was out on the slopes every weekend until they closed resorts in late April.

In the off-season, I stoked my fires by listening to the wisdom on these boards (yes, I was a lurker for a very long time) and by reading any ski instruction book I could get my hands on. I made a commitment to ski a lot this year so I got my own ski pass, bought my skis and boots and promised myself that I wouldn't quit until they dragged me out of there.

At the end of last season, I was past the greens but doing some blues with some difficulty (ex. burned my thighs going down Northway at Jay). Early this season, I made the the breakthrough into blacks and, as of two weeks ago, was skiing down double blacks without even pausing at the top of the trail to think of what I was getting into. Am probably an upper intermediate skier now (I think) and regularly run down blue and blacks. My next target are glades and bumps and am soaking up the knowledge in the other threads, believe me.

Anyway, aside from the list above, I'd probably add:

1. Ski with someone whose abilities are slightly better than you - You need someone to push you slightly on the trails (but not so recklessly such that you never do what they ask you to do because they're just too scary). Sometimes it's a question of seeing someone else do it and saying to yourself "hey, I can do that." Sometimes it's the competitive fire in you that won't allow you to be beaten which pushes you over your limits.

2. Concentrate on fundamentals - Hands in front of you, stay tall, put your weight forward, shins on the tongues of your boots and drive that ski. In the lessons, you take them for granted. But, when you're up there, it really makes a lot of difference.

3. Concentrate on what's ahead of you - When standing on top of a steep trail (ex. Gondi at the 'Loaf), don't stare at how steep the trail is by looking at the town at the bottom of the hill. You'll just get vertigo and never get down. Instead, concentrate on what's immediately ahead of you - the 20 feet of snow that you must ski in order to get down. Everything becomes simpler then. The mind is a wonderful thing and never underestimate your powers of concentration.

4. No Fear - Think positive. I was always chant to myself "you can do it" when pushing myself down a double black. Am my own cheering section. When you get scared, you allow yourself to make mistakes. (When I get scared though, it's great to have my balaclava on. It hides any stupid facial expressions I'm making and hides the fact that I'm freaking out! Somehow, the fact that I am not embarassing myself makes me go on. Normally, when I am embarassed, I'll just stop what I'm doing. Anyway, hope that helps.)

Just my 2 cents. I learned so much about skiing from the folks on these boards, I just wanted to pay that forward by sharing my own observations. 

Cheers! :beer:


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## ctenidae (Feb 16, 2006)

Gotta say, once you get your gear set up right, the thing you have to do is do it. Look at that scary trail and plan it out- I can turn there, go around that Volkswagen, make a turn there, slide across that patch of ice, bounce off that lift tower, and make a turn in that patch of soft snow there. Then, launch yourself, adn forget the plan entirely. Before you know it, you're at teh bottom, and you've just survived a scary trail without even knowing you were doing it. I find that my worst runs are down slopes where I let myself get worried beforehand. After getting down, I go up and do it again- usually much, much better becasue I know it's doable.

You want to break through to the next level? Well, do it. Don't think you can ski trees? you'll never know until you go do it (it's a rush, believe me). Blacks got you down? Beat them. Improving your skiing is as much a question of mindset (if not more) than technique. Dont' get me wrong, improving your technique is important, but you'll never do it unless your willing to push your limits a bit and put yourself in postions where you have to concentrate on improving.

/words of wisdom from someone who's been skiing for two years. Still, the only trail I've turned away from in the past two years is Green Beret at Jay- what wasn't ice or grass was rocks- not my idea of a useful trail.


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## ctenidae (Feb 16, 2006)

Double posting blues...


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## Paul (Feb 16, 2006)

Wow Cten, you can say that again!  :wink:


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## Greg (Feb 16, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Greg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're the one that told me this, Jim back at Hunter last year. I never forgot it and since have been trying to get out as much as possible. Scored 25 days last season and 11 so far this year which is not too bad considering we now have two young children. It's tough to juggle life and the skiing passion, but if you make a commitment to ski as much as possible, you will advance...


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## Rushski (Feb 16, 2006)

Try to paraphrase what many have already said:

1. Buy equipment for a higher level.  Noodle skis and overly soft boots will keep you sloppy.  Stiffer skis/boots will force you to work the equipment.

2. SKI.  As much as your schedule allows.  When I was 19 or 20 and crossed the plateau, it was primarily because I skied nearly constantly.

3. Commit to the fall line.  Keep your torso still and always pointed downhill.  Intermediates are generally turning their whole body into the turn, which takes away much control.

4. Lessons can always help.  Try to find a solid instructor for the correct level.  An instructor who is great for first timers isn't neccessarily a great advanced instructor.

5. Force yourself into shorter radius turns.  If you can get tight turns down, it will lead to be able to skiing more terrain.

Good Luck...


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## Greg (Feb 16, 2006)

Rushski said:
			
		

> 3. Commit to the fall line.  Keep your torso still and allows pointed downhill.  Intermediates are generally turning their whole body into the turn, which takes away much control.


Yup. The different when watching an intermediate vs. a more advanced skier, is the intermediate's torso will follow the ski tips. An advanced skier will remain square to the fall line and the upper body will remain quiet. Good hand position goes hand in hand (no pun intended) here. Always keep your hands in your peripheral vision, up and away from the body. Do not swing your arms when you pole plant. You should remain relatively still from the head down to the waist. Good consistent hand position and the rest of the upper body will follow.


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## hammer (Feb 16, 2006)

Rushski said:
			
		

> Try to paraphrase what many have already said:


I've seen so many good responses I'm trying to do the same...



> 1. Buy equipment for a higher level.  Noodle skis and overly soft boots will keep you sloppy.  Stiffer skis/boots will force you to work the equipment.



That may be an option in a few years, but I need to get some more mileage out of the equipment I have now.  Biggest problem I have is that I think my boots are a bit too big -- if I can fit time into my schedule, a trip to Jeff in Concord is in order...



> 2. SKI.  As much as your schedule allows.  When I was 19 or 20 and crossed the plateau, it was primarily because I skied nearly constantly.



I hope to get a season pass next year.  Most likely candidates are Pats, Crotched, or Wachusett.  Nashoba's a lot closer but I wouldn't get a season pass there -- too expensive IMO.



> 3. Commit to the fall line.  Keep your torso still and always pointed downhill.  Intermediates are generally turning their whole body into the turn, which takes away much control.



Working on it...I do face down the fall line at least some of the time, but in all honesty I'm not sure if it's because my neck is turned or if it's because my upper body is really pointing downhill.  I'll have to pay more attention to this next time I go out.

I'm also working on the hand position as well, although I'm not sure if my hands are out but my butt's in the back seat anyway...:-? 



> 4. Lessons can always help.  Try to find a solid instructor for the correct level.  An instructor who is great for first timers isn't neccessarily a great advanced instructor.



The main concern I have is that I don't want to overstate my abilities -- the last lesson I went to, the parents of one kid did this, and it's not good for the others in the lesson when a change has to be made after the lesson starts.



> 5. Force yourself into shorter radius turns.  If you can get tight turns down, it will lead to be able to skiing more terrain.



Working on that as well...as a goal, I try to stay on the sides of a trail if I can.  Besides, that's where the better snow usually is. 

To all...again, thanks for the responses!  :beer:


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## Greg (Feb 16, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> I'm also working on the hand position as well, although I'm not sure if my hands are out but my butt's in the back seat anyway...:-?


I'm a major croucher too despite what I consider decent hand position. Look at my new avatar for an example. Try to stand taller, puff out your chest a little bit; but try to still remain relaxed.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> I'm a major croucher too despite what I consider decent hand position. Look at my new avatar for an example. Try to stand taller, puff out your chest a little bit; but try to still remain relaxed.



To put it another way:

Stand tall and flex your knees and ankles slightly, not too much. Now, think of your lower back and emphasize the curvature (the "C" shape in your lower back). You'll be most successful doing that by moving your hips up (skyward) and forward (down the hill).

No more backseat.


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## Greg (Feb 16, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Stand tall and flex your knees and ankles slightly, not too much. Now, think of your lower back and *emphasize the curvature (the "C" shape in your lower back)*. You'll be most successful doing that by moving your hips up (skyward) and forward (down the hill).


Great way of putting it. You will make Dan proud.  I am going to concetrate on just this next time I'm out.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> JimG. said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The trick is doing that while you're moving.

In bumps, the only way to be consistent is to nail the extention/absorption technique.


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## tekweezle (Feb 16, 2006)

what are your thoughts on crouching versus "raising your knees to your chest"?

i find that when I am crouching, I tend to go across the fall line like a GS turn-low center of gravity to the slope.

when I keep my upper body "quiet" and am facing down the fall line, the "raise the knees into your chest" allows me to make quicker short turns.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2006)

tekweezle said:
			
		

> what are your thoughts on crouching versus "raising your knees to your chest"?
> 
> i find that when I am crouching, I tend to go across the fall line like a GS turn-low center of gravity to the slope.
> 
> when I keep my upper body "quiet" and am facing down the fall line, the "raise the knees into your chest" allows me to make quicker short turns.



Crouching is the backseat.

Raising the knees to your chest and then immediately extending into the next trough is absorption/extention and that's key to skiing bumps well.


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## Greg (Feb 16, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> The trick is doing that while you're moving.
> 
> In bumps, the only way to be consistent is to nail the extention/absorption technique.


Indeed. I can ski tall no problem on the groomers. Get in the bumps and uh oh: king-fu defensive mode = back seat. Starting to get A&E though. Absorption has never been a problem, extension has. Not extending will also put you back right off the first few bumps. It's starting to click though and it feels so good when it does (for me, this is only every now and then...  ). I love the challenge of trying to put all these little pieces together. You really need to do them all together though and that only can happen with practice, practice, practice. I guess realizing when it feels right is half the battle.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> I guess realizing when it feels right is half the battle.



Yup...to me it feels right when my hips are leading everything else down the fall line; my legs are just moving underneath me and my upper body is nice and still.

But I'm still at the point where that isn't always the case.


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## ctenidae (Feb 16, 2006)

_Yup...to me it feels right when my hips are leading everything else down the fall line; my legs are just moving underneath me and my upper body is nice and still. _

That's what she said!

(sorry. just had to get that in there before Marc showed up)


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## tekweezle (Feb 16, 2006)

> Crouching is the backseat.



okay, my "crouch" is more like a "athletic, forward leaning stance-chest over knees over toes, hands forward".  not hunched over like a shrimp, which is the opposite of arching your back as described above.


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## JimG. (Feb 16, 2006)

tekweezle said:
			
		

> > Crouching is the backseat.
> 
> 
> 
> okay, my "crouch" is more like a "athletic, forward leaning stance-chest over knees over toes, hands forward".  not hunched over like a shrimp, which is the opposite of arching your back as described above.



At this point I'd need to see you ski...these terms are all somewhat relative to the person using them.

One of my enduring memories of teaching is the beginner classes that bow forward when you tell them to lean forward. I learned then that fewer words and more visual demonstrations were the key.


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## andyzee (Feb 16, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> JimG. said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Step away from the computer and get your butt out on the slopes!


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## hammer (Feb 16, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> Step away from the computer and get your butt out on the slopes!


Still here...easier said than done, I guess...


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## andyzee (Feb 16, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> andyzee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually meant Greg


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## hammer (Feb 16, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> hammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought so  but the comment seemed valid for all of us...


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## andyzee (Feb 16, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> andyzee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ain't that the truth! However, so far I have managed to get 25 days in this year. And there is no question about it, nothing like practice


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## Greg (Feb 16, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> hammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Has more to do with family obligations than the PC...


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## Skier75 (Feb 16, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> andyzee said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, yeah, yeah.....ain't that the truth!  
I'd like to as well......darn weather! This warm weather just can't be good for the slopes!


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## kingslug (Feb 16, 2006)

tekweezle said:
			
		

> definitely go skiing out west if you haven't yet preferebly on uncrowded weekdays.  it can change your perspective on skiing entirely.
> 
> to be able to cruise for miles without having to get on a lift will allow you to work on your technique.



How true. Once I started making regular trips out west i just got better and better. The great conditions helped a lot of course. Utah...steep and cheap :beer:


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## tirolerpeter (Feb 17, 2006)

*Skiing Better*



			
				kingslug said:
			
		

> tekweezle said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen to that!  Going back west in nine days!


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## andyzee (Feb 17, 2006)

*Re: Skiing Better*



			
				tirolerpeter said:
			
		

> kingslug said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't forget the reports!


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## HDHaller (Feb 17, 2006)

hammer said:
			
		

> Does anyone recall the time that they felt they had transitioned from "intemediate" skiing to more "advanced" skiing?  Do you remember one or more things that you started doing that caused this to happen?
> 
> I may be just a little impatient (this is my 3rd season going skiing on a regular basis), but while I've been happy going skiing I haven't been too happy with my skiing lately.  Transitioning to smoother turns that don't take as much out of my legs has eluded me so far...
> 
> I think I need a lesson...



Hammer,
If you've got the time and $ for a substantial ski vacation / clinic, check out the link I have in my signature below. Dan and John Egan, and the rest of their XTeam crew, specialize in breaking advanced intermediates out of their ruts. They've got Val D Isere and Alaska heli-skiing clinics coming up in March and April.
-HD Haller


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## hammer (Nov 30, 2010)

Bumping this old thread...because I think my transition to terminal intermediate is official.  I can get myself down steeper trails than 4 years ago but I certainly don't look that good doing it.

I have proper equipment so I can't blame it on that.

I did have a few short videos done at the end of last season.  I noticed that my turns were rushed and I had a pronounced A frame, which would explain why my past attempts to ski bumps have not worked out well.

Any suggestions on an improvement plan for a planned trip to UT in Feb would be appreciated...not looking to hit the whole mountain but I don't want to be stuck on groomers the whole time either.


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## 2knees (Nov 30, 2010)

hammer said:


> Bumping this old thread...because I think my transition to terminal intermediate is official.  I can get myself down steeper trails than 4 years ago but I certainly don't look that good doing it.
> 
> I have proper equipment so I can't blame it on that.
> 
> ...



the answer lies in your "location".  you need to drop the "not" and learn to ski the highwaystar way......

I wish I could offer you some real advice but alas, i have none.  At this point, my feeling is as long as you're having fun you're winning.


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## kingslug (Nov 30, 2010)

You need to ski with people who are better than you..and pay attention. Working on 1 thing at a time is the way to go. If you aren't skiing parrallel this is whats killing you in the bumps. Work on getting you're feet closer together. probably best done on green runs, then just step it up as you get better. Unfortunately you can't practice much powder skiing here, well hopefully you can at times, so in Utah you'll just have to learn as you go...or...take a much needed powder lesson, or a few. And rent some fat skis while out there, it makes all the difference. They rent Rossignol S'3's at most places, its my powder ski and really makes it much easier.


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## dmc (Nov 30, 2010)

kingslug said:


> You need to ski with people who are better than you..




Yup... Thats a good way to get good.. watch and learn


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## 4aprice (Nov 30, 2010)

hammer said:


> Any suggestions on an improvement plan for a planned trip to UT in Feb would be appreciated...not looking to hit the whole mountain but I don't want to be stuck on groomers the whole time either.




Get out there and hit it.  Don't shy away from bumps, trees, steeps etc:  Watch other skiers who you feel are skiing well and challege yourself to ski like them.  Sometimes the mind is more of a barrier then actual ability.  Like 2knees says if your having fun your winning.  Being an eastern skier you will find Utah very forgiving and enjoyable. 

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## speden (Nov 30, 2010)

hammer said:


> I did have a few short videos done at the end of last season.  I noticed that my turns were rushed and I had a pronounced A frame, which would explain why my past attempts to ski bumps have not worked out well.



Hi Hammer,

I think I am in the same boat as you.  I had my wife videotape me and I was surprised to see that I go into a slight stem at the start of each turn, and yet I felt like I was skiing parallel.  But after I saw it, things suddenly made sense.  I have a bad habit of needing to lift the downhill ski to initiate a new turn, and that's because if I just edge over while in stem, then wham down I go, since the new inside leg isn't pointed correctly into the new turn.

I was reading an interesting thread about this over on epic.  I think the solution for me is that instead of trying to initiate a left turn with the right leg, I should flatten and steer the left ski into the left turn, and the right ski is going to come along for the ride and be parallel.  And instead of intentionally shifting my weight to the right ski to turn left, I should just let the turn shift my weight naturally.  Then I won't need to lift the left ski during the turn entry and I can stay balanced on both skis.  At least in theory... I'll have to see if that works for me in the real world.

I think once you find yourself skiing in Utah powder, it's going to be very important to be balanced on both feet and with skis parallel if you want to stay upright.  If you go into a stem in 3d snow, I don't think it will work too well.

Here's the thread on epic:

"Teaching Intermediates to Parallel"

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/97837/teaching-intermediates-to-parallel


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## RISkier (Nov 30, 2010)

speden said:


> Hi Hammer,
> 
> I think I am in the same boat as you.  I had my wife videotape me and I was surprised to see that I go into a slight stem at the start of each turn, and yet I felt like I was skiing parallel.  But after I saw it, things suddenly made sense.  I have a bad habit of needing to lift the downhill ski to initiate a new turn, and that's because if I just edge over while in stem, then wham down I go, since the new inside leg isn't pointed correctly into the new turn.
> 
> ...



You might want to take a look at Harold Harb's stuff. His "Anyone Can be an Expert Skier I" pretty much only talks about what he calls the "phantom move" which is pretty much all inside foot. I think a lot of the drills he describes in his Essentials book are really good. And he really emphasizes the idea of flexing (lightening) the inside leg and tipping the inside ski rather than pushing with the outside foot. Harb is kind of an iconoclast who has a huge chip on his shoulder regarding PSIA, but I think he gives some really good drills. Lito Tejada-Flores talks about some of the same things in his books and videos. You might also want to look at some of John Clendenin's stuff. FWIW, I read a lot better than I ski.


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## Geoff (Nov 30, 2010)

I've only looked at the posts since this got bumped but....

Didn't anybody suggest "Take some lessons"?


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## riverc0il (Nov 30, 2010)

hammer said:


> Bumping this old thread...because I think my transition to terminal intermediate is official.  I can get myself down steeper trails than 4 years ago but I certainly don't look that good doing it.
> 
> I have proper equipment so I can't blame it on that.
> 
> ...


My original comments in this thread still hold true. How often are you getting out? More days! Challenge yourself to double your days this season. When you ski, don't just "free ski" for fun but rather incorporate drills into your skiing. You need to work on getting better. More days will help, but you need to drill with specific goals in mind.

Don't have drills? Take a lesson and ask for drills that will help you improve. Don't just ask for drills. Tell them what you need to be aware of so you can self correct. Make sure the instructor tells you what you need to yell at yourself. Ask for references for a good instructor at your favorite area that you have a season pass at (because you need more days, you need a pass--don't matter where... any where that is cheap and close is fine).

Which leads into the point made by prior posters... ski with people better than you. Don't ask for a lesson from them, but do ask "hey, watch me ski a few turns and tell me if I am doing this thing with this body part" that way you can get some feedback.

Watch others. What are they doing that you are not? This requires the ability to understand yourself physically and translate what others are doing into something you can imitate. Doesn't work for everyone. If it doesn't work for you, take lessons!


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## UVSHTSTRM (Nov 30, 2010)

I suggest you give up skiing and take up snowboarding.  On day one you will be an intermediate, day two advanced, day three you could lead backcountry in Alaska.  :razz:


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## gmcunni (Nov 30, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I've only looked at the posts since this got bumped but....
> 
> Didn't anybody suggest "Take some lessons"?


yes ^^

sign up for a group lesson targeted at advanced skiers. you'll likely be the only student and get a private lesson for the cost a group.  even if there is 1 other guy you'll get a lot of attention and come away with a tip or two to work on.  this worked for me a couple of times.


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## WWF-VT (Nov 30, 2010)

Geoff said:


> I've only looked at the posts since this got bumped but....
> 
> Didn't anybody suggest "Take some lessons"?



+1 

Take a lesson or a few with an instructor that is focused on how you ski today and what you should work on to take it to the next level.  As others have said - ski often, challenge yourself on trails that are beyond your current comfort level and have fun along the way.


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## mister moose (Nov 30, 2010)

I would sum up the factors that make for good skiing in an inverted pyramid (in decreasing importance) as follows:







Technique is first, you can't go anywhere without the right movements and position.
Balance is next, you need to stay upright.
Strength is necessary to do the above well, with authority when necessary and repeatedly.  We're not talking body builder strength here, but you do need to be in [very] good (skiing) shape.
Equipment sufficient for the task at hand.
Desire.  Without it, you lack skiing soul and are lost to mediocrity forever.

Some additional notes.

1)  Very good technique sometimes isn't visible, or not to the casual observer.  Watch, but also read, ask, take lessons.  One reason lessons help is the instructors are trained to make the proper movements exaggerated so you can see them,

2)  OMG Speden, post # 62.  I'm thinking you're going to be thinking too much.  I'm also thinking that while garlic, wine, sugar, peanut butter and asparagus are all good foods, you do not ever eat them all at the same time, capice?   Stemming comes from inadequate turning skills.  The stem is there to _compensate_ for what isn't happening elsewhere.  There are many ways to turn.  You are just listing random ingredients.  Get thee to a good instructor, or find me and buy me a beer.

3)  RivercOil:  It can also be what they aren't doing.  (When watching better skiers than yourself)  Discovering the reasons for this (your incorrect movements) sometimes aren't that obvious, and you might not be aware you're even doing it.  Your post #19 is excellent advice IMHO.  Speed does not equal technique.  Foundation, foundation, foundation.  Sure, try keeping up with your fast friends, but go ski and really drill hard on being controlled and precise on easier terrain.  Do it often.

4)  Eureka moments are great when you can get them, but expect baby steps.  This includes lessons.

5)  Balance and strength come from days on the hill.  As many have said, to become better than all those low intermediates that only ski 10 days a year you don't need vitamins, pixie dust, or internet chat boards.  There is no magic for you.  You need to ski a lot.

6)  Equipment doesn't give you technique.  Equipment does give you better tools, and you will ski better if you know how to use those tools.  Remember the  better equipment tends to excel in certain areas, for certain jobs.  There is no magic here either (ie a race ski does not make you a good racer), so choose the tools that are best suited _your_ needs.  If you are still stemming you should concentrate on a ski with adequate sidecut, _good edges_, and less than 150 days on them.  Tired skis are likely not holding you back much, but you might find you notice the increased 'snap', and better edge grip of a new ski.

7)  Hammer, don't over challenge yourself, post #57.  Get your focus off steeps and gnar.  Stay on the upper side of your comfort zone, this is where most learning occurs.  Take some time to drill on terrain that is solidly in your comfort zone, and then push the technique hard.  Just pushing the terrain gets you good exposure, but that isn't all you need. 

8)  95% of good skiing happens from the hips on down (Settle down Sundown crew, A&E excepted, but we're not talking bumps here)  

9)  Yes, keep square down the hill if you are skiing a zipper line.  I disagree about all the time.  Your eyes, and your shoulders should face _where you are going_. Might not be down the fall line all the time.  Looking where you are going applies to the vertical plane as well, do not look at your ski tips or the next mogul.  Take some advice from an instrument pilot and develop a _constantly moving scan_, but focus where you will be in several seconds from now.

10)  Good skiing is dynamic, not static.  At some point you need to ski fast enough, hard enough, to discover, feel and use centripetal forces.

11)  Which brings me to ENERGY!  Do not ski lazy.  At least not if you want to get better, which is what this thread is about, right?  Some will disagree with me on this, but I think there is far too much accent on making good skiing easy, ie effortless.  It only looks that way.   You are not in a barcalounger.  Effort is required.

12)  2knees, post #58, Learning is fun, no?


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## krisskis (Nov 30, 2010)

dmc said:


> Yup... Thats a good way to get good.. watch and learn



Exactly...i have been sking since i was 5 yrs old and was a "terminal intermediate" forever...until i started skiing with KingSlug. I never would have skied certain trails or gone as fast, etc. Not to say i follow him EVERYWHERE!! <i still think he is trying to kill me at times  > But it definately helps to ski with someone who is better than you and keeps pushing you.


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## hammer (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks to all for the advice (again!).  Much of the advice is the same as I've heard (and given) in another activity that I do so it all makes sense.

Part of me was hoping I would not be in this situation after several  years, but given my physical conditioning (what is that?) and inability  to get out many times a season I guess I should not have expected too  much.

Life doesn't allow me to get out every single weekend or on many weeknights so I just can't do the frequent ski trips that many are recommending.  I have had season passes before but I could never get out much more than the break-even point.  Good, correct advice, but I just can't swing it.  Oh well.

I do plan on getting another lesson in this season and this time I'll make better notes on suggested drills.  One thing I've noticed in other activities is that it's difficult to see/know what *I'm* doing right and wrong.  Going to see if I can get more videos done...they can be difficult to watch but they are useful.

Skiing with others better than me...aside from trying to keep up with my son that usually doesn't happen often.  I'll just keep watching others when I'm out on the hill.


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## o3jeff (Dec 1, 2010)

Last year I felt that I wasn't advancing too much and seemed like I topped out on my ability. Having never taken a lesson and not really knowing why I was doing what I was, I decided to take a lesson from one of the forum members at the end of the season. He gave me a lot of good info and things to work on, just wished I did it earlier in the season. Looking forward to taking some more this season.

Also what everyone else said, skiing with better skiers helps a lot since you push yourself to keep up.


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## speden (Dec 1, 2010)

mister moose said:


> 2)  OMG Speden, post # 62.  I'm thinking you're going to be thinking too much.  I'm also thinking that while garlic, wine, sugar, peanut butter and asparagus are all good foods, you do not ever eat them all at the same time, capice?   Stemming comes from inadequate turning skills.  The stem is there to _compensate_ for what isn't happening elsewhere.  There are many ways to turn.  You are just listing random ingredients.  Get thee to a good instructor, or find me and buy me a beer.



Ha Ha.  Two schools of thought.

Why did you drop that touchdown pass?

1. I thought about it too much.
2. I didn't think about it enough!

For some people the instinctive approach of 1 might be best.  They can "just do it".  For me I prefer 2.

The stem for me is a defensive move at the start of a turn.  I push the new outside leg around the corner to prevent picking up speed, while still riding the old outside leg.  The skis are then pointed in different directions during the transition.  To fix that I'm going to try initiating the turn with the old outside leg instead of my stem habit.  That will force me to transition from edge to flat to new edge, instead of skipping the flat step.  It doesn't seem that complicated, but overcoming bad habits is hard.


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## kingslug (Dec 1, 2010)

Some of my biggest improvements have come from skiing with Jim G. and Carl..they taught me to SLOW down and turn more and faster..this helped me in the bumps. Out west I have to admit that the right skis was the major game changer..skiing knee deep powder on skinny skis is a bitch..as is falling and finding you're now buried skis, poles, body...


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## 2knees (Dec 1, 2010)

speden said:


> Why did you drop that touchdown pass?




http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?t=86574


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## crank (Dec 2, 2010)

Sorry for posting without reading all previous reply's.

First, as others. I'm sure, have said.  Ski with better skiers.  Follow better skiers.  Try to imitate what they do.

The guy with the inverted triangle thingy has it backwards. It's all about balance and technique is secondary to that.  they kind of go hand in hand, but you can't be a good skier without having the balance, which is different in different situations, down.

Last, again, I'm sure others have said this - push yourself.  Ski more challenging terrain.  I've seen plenty of skiers who looked good on easy terrain and fall apart when the going gets tough.  They have the technique but not the balance.


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## drjeff (Dec 2, 2010)

speden said:


> Ha Ha.  Two schools of thought.
> 
> Why did you drop that touchdown pass?
> 
> ...



Agree!  Personally I know that I ski better/learn more when I'm just trying to focus on 1 thing, instead of worrying about 10 things.  Eventually I'll get to all 10 things,  but if I work on it 1 step at a time, realizing that the time to work on the next thing on the list is when I'm not really thinking about what I was thinking about when making turns,  that works for me!

For example, if I'm trying to think about hands infront, head up, knee over the toe piece of my binding, feet shoulder width apart, chest pointing directly down the falline, etc then chances are my brain is so busy that I'm not getting any benefit from what I'm trying to work on.  If I'm just focusing on one of those things (such as chest pointing down the hill), then when I've got that figured out, chances are I've already started working on some of the other things, but also that it will be easier for me to advance


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## mondeo (Dec 2, 2010)

mister moose said:


> 7) Hammer, don't over challenge yourself, post #57. Get your focus off steeps and gnar. Stay on the upper side of your comfort zone, this is where most learning occurs. Take some time to drill on terrain that is solidly in your comfort zone, and then push the technique hard. Just pushing the terrain gets you good exposure, but that isn't all you need.
> 
> 8 ) 95% of good skiing happens from the hips on down (Settle down Sundown crew, A&E excepted, but we're not talking bumps here)
> 
> 12) 2knees, post #58, Learning is fun, no?


Benefit of pushing the comfort zone is it slows down your thinking. That terrain where teqnique used to suffer because you weren't quite comfortable now becomes a place where you can focus on technique, and makes it more productive when you take a step back.

All good A&E happens from the hips down. 

Depends on the person, some people are happy with where they are and working on being a better skier isn't worth the improvement.

My take:
Time on the hill
Ski with better skiers, who won't slow down for you. The hell with imitation, just keeping up with them works the comfort zone issue.
Slow it down to work on technique, then apply that while freeskiing.
Lessons can't hurt.

Not sure I've seen it yet, but: video. It's a huge help in understanding exactly what you're doing, rather than what you think you're doing. You may be surprised at some random, weird motions.


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## bobbutts (Dec 2, 2010)

didn't read the whole thread, but another thing to do is observe lots video of good skiers then emulate
when I was younger I must have watched Greg Stump's movies 1000 times and I think it helped.. Of course I never matched the skill of those guys, but understanding what they're doing and why pays real dividends on the hill imo.


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## mister moose (Dec 2, 2010)

mondeo said:


> Benefit of pushing the comfort zone is it slows down your thinking. That terrain where teqnique used to suffer because you weren't quite comfortable now becomes a place where you can focus on technique, and makes it more productive when you take a step back.



We might be saying the same thing here.  My point is no learning takes place once panic sets in.  A good learning spot is pushing a little, not being totally comfortable (what I meant by upper side) as anything new will likely feel uncomfortable, but don't push so hard as to introduce panic.  You should still be able to ask yourself where your weight is, what your feet are doing or their position, thinking about a plan or goal of sorts, etc.  Where in that range learning occurs, or the most frequent learning occurs probably varies from person to person and day to day.  Meaning you can push some people more than others.  Realize you are athletic and accomplished, and others sometimes do not learn at the same pace you did.  More beginning skiers are lost, and more girlfriends are lost, by friends hauling them to the top of some lift and saying "Follow me!"  Just turn!"  Seen it hundreds of times.  I know we're talking about intermediates not novices, but that method of teaching gives limited results.  Teaching is not the same thing as a survival of the fittest program.

If what you're saying is that some people sometimes need a kick in the pants to get to the next level, then I agree.  Viper pit would be a good kick in the pants for a solid stuck on the blues skier needing to try something steeper.  It's 3 turns ♦ and it's over with a long reassuring flat runout.  As opposed to Outer Limits ♦♦, where they might revert to survival sideslip the whole way down over 1,000 vertical feet, cursing at you the whole way, never to trust you again, just because you thought you'd be bored on Skyeburst ▀  just to get to Viper Pit ♦.




crank said:


> The guy with the inverted triangle thingy has it backwards. It's all about balance and technique is secondary to that.  they kind of go hand in hand, but you can't be a good skier without having the balance, which is different in different situations, down.




Disagree, and here's why.  (Both are important.)  You are headed towards a tree with only a second to act.   Do you turn in that second, or stay balanced and hit the tree? 

You use technique to turn, not balance.  Technique is learning to shift weight, or timing, or steering, or body position.  Balance is being able to stay centered and upright _while doing _those things. Balance supports technique, not the other way around.


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## dmc (Dec 2, 2010)

If your terminal i think you can get a cannabis card in Colorado that night help the pain a bit..


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## mondeo (Dec 2, 2010)

mister moose said:


> If what you're saying is that some people sometimes need a kick in the pants to get to the next level, then I agree. Viper pit would be a good kick in the pants for a solid stuck on the blues skier needing to try something steeper. It's 3 turns ♦ and it's over with a long reassuring flat runout. As opposed to Outer Limits ♦♦, where they might revert to survival sideslip the whole way down over 1,000 vertical feet, cursing at you the whole way, never to trust you again, just because you thought you'd be bored on Skyeburst ▀ just to get to Viper Pit ♦.


That's probably more of what I'm going for. Forcing yourself through a panic run now and then makes the previously uncomfortable, comfortable. Sideslipping down O.L. doesn't do anything (other than scrape off snow and make other people angry.) But going for it, doing your best, all the way down while the only thoughts are "Oh sh** oh sh** oh sh**" turns Wildfire into a piece of cake the next run. Push boundaries, go beyond the comfort level, but do it in the right way, and not all the time.

On the imitate/emulate side of things - doesn't work for everyone. I can feel like I'm skiing great, but when I look at video I'm falling apart. Hard to imitate when what you feel is imitation is nothing close to it.


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## mister moose (Dec 2, 2010)

speden said:


> Ha Ha.  Two schools of thought.
> 
> Why did you drop that touchdown pass?
> 
> ...



Ok, ok, whatever works for you.

That last description cleared things up a lot, and you are actually talking about 2 separate issues.

Speed control.  This part is easier to fix I'd guess.  Instead of stemming out to slow down, try each of these three things alone or in combination -  1) keep the turn going  a little longer, come farther across the fall line. 2) make the turns a lot sharper, shorter radius, takes more energy!  3) At the end of the turn, make an extra push on the snow (both feet) with an agressive edge set, this absorbs some speed, and gives you a firm platform to spring off of to the next turn.

None of that directly relates to the other problem, which is 

Stemming to intitiate the turn.  #2 & 3 above will help with this. 2) will hone and improve your steering ability and 3) will get you skiing more dynamically.  I'd have to see your skiing to be of much help.  When and how it happens, if it's only on certain grade slopes, if it's balance related, favorite legs, body position, etc.  There are too many possibilities.  Good luck, and aim for more ski days this year!


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## goldsbar (Dec 2, 2010)

Nice 2006 post.  My advice is somewhat different:

1.  Buy one of Harald Harbs books - saw someone else suggest this.  Advice such as keep your weight forward is very hard for most of us to understand.  Such advice often makes people (me) spend years in a gorilla position which actually keeps your weight back!  BTW, neutral weight is generally fine.  I like instructors but they can be detrimental unless you find a good one and go a few times.

2.  Gear shouldn't matter much as long as it fits (i.e. nice glove like fitting boots).  I actually suggest a pair of noodle skis with a short turning radius.  Very easy to learn to carve on such skis.

3.  Back off the steepness and back off the speed.  It's fairly easy to ski fast and so-so technique can get you down steeps.  Today's wide skis can even get so-so technique down steep off piste.  Technique is all about speed control and being able to turn however and whenever you want.  I'll be working on this for the rest of my life.

4.  Following up on #1.  Learn to carve on beginner/easy intermediate slopes with good (i.e. your can't see your reflection in the ice) snow.  Once you can carve short turns on hard intermediate groomers you'll be able to handle anything with some very slight technique modifications with the exception of zipperline moguls.  Buy Dipiro's (sp?) and you'll pick that up in time.


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## jaja111 (Dec 2, 2010)

dmc said:


> ........ get a cannabis........



Taught me to relax, be smooth, have grace, dance a bit, strengthened faith to turn on the front of the ski and keep weight forward, be smooth, relax, don't make any jarring movements unless absolutely necessary.... did I say be smooth? 

The transition past the seemingly terminal intermediate level for many people is an "aha" moment in which they realize, bear with me, that they are skiing with the center, limbic portion of the brain and their frontal lobe went from too many tasks to manage to just simply navigating. The transition out is when you go from coping with the situation for the reward of making it to the bottom to wishing the bottom never arrived. Think driving - we all take it for granted to some degree and it came fairly naturally, for such a complex task, only through practice and gaining comfort with it. Once someone skis without a lot of thought, adding additional challenges are easier to cope with and adapt to. I see too many people pushing themselves into ski situations (sometimes terrain, but where I live its usually the weather that's the culprit) that damage their comfort and confidence, relegating them to the illusion of "terminal intermediate".  One has to build upon what they've learned gradually. No one is going to play Mozart on a piano after having mastered "Camptown Races" or "Chopsticks", but if they try, and then go back to playing "Chopsticks" they see that the skill to play the simpler tune has suffered.


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## riverc0il (Dec 2, 2010)

crank said:


> The guy with the inverted triangle thingy has it backwards. It's all about balance and technique is secondary to that.  they kind of go hand in hand, but you can't be a good skier without having the balance, which is different in different situations, down.


This is probably splitting hairs as this is kind of chicken and egg. Almost, but not quite. You can not develop good balance without good technique. Good balance with bad technique is not going to get you very far. You can have all the balance in the world but if you can't set your edge right, it doesn't matter how well you load and unload your ski. I developed basic technique first and getting my balance down took me to the next level. Basically, you can compensate for bad balance with good technique (gets the job done but you don't look graceful) but good balance is not going to let you get by with bad technique. Can you even have good balance with bad technique? I say that is less likely than good technique with bad balance. They go hand and hand but I think focusing on technique is way more important (and likely more practicable and understandable for the terminal intermediate) than focusing on balance.


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## crank (Dec 3, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> This is probably splitting hairs as this is kind of chicken and egg. Almost, but not quite. You can not develop good balance without good technique. Good balance with bad technique is not going to get you very far. You can have all the balance in the world but if you can't set your edge right, it doesn't matter how well you load and unload your ski. I developed basic technique first and getting my balance down took me to the next level. Basically, you can compensate for bad balance with good technique (gets the job done but you don't look graceful) but good balance is not going to let you get by with bad technique. Can you even have good balance with bad technique? I say that is less likely than good technique with bad balance. They go hand and hand but I think focusing on technique is way more important (and likely more practicable and understandable for the terminal intermediate) than focusing on balance.



I disagree.  Well yes good technique is important, but what is good technique is not an exact thing.  Many coaches would change Bode Miller's Technique yet it works for him. An intermediate, terminal or otherwise, will know how to turn their skis.  Still, they struggle on harder terrain.  Why? Balance!   As I stated in my earlier post, I have seen plenty of skiers who thought they were good, and even looked good on easier terrain.  Take them to the steeps or the bumps and the fall apart. The most important thing is balance.  You can split hairs, and maybe have to, by saying you need to have your weight (balance) on this edge or that edge, but it still boils down to balance.


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## speden (Dec 3, 2010)

goldsbar said:


> 1.  Buy one of Harald Harbs books - saw someone else suggest this.  Advice such as keep your weight forward is very hard for most of us to understand.  Such advice often makes people (me) spend years in a gorilla position which actually keeps your weight back!  BTW, neutral weight is generally fine.  I like instructors but they can be detrimental unless you find a good one and go a few times.



I read one of Harb's books a while back, "Essentials of Skiing".  It has a lot of useful information, but one thing I don't like about his approach is he talks about how things feel rather than the actual physics of what's happening at the edges.

For example, he says that you never need to use any rotary input on the skis.  Just tipping and balancing will get the job of carving turns done.  But I'd say that's baloney.

There's no way two unconnected skis are going to stay parallel without at least some moderate rotary input to fine tune their alignment.  People may not feel like they are adding any steering inputs to the skis since it's subtle and perhaps happening instinctively, but those inputs are happening and are necessary.


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## mister moose (Dec 3, 2010)

crank said:


> The most important thing is balance.  You can split hairs, and maybe have to, by saying you need to have your weight (balance) on this edge or that edge, but it still boils down to balance.



So you're saying which edge you have weight on is balance.  And by extension, which part of the ski, favoring the tip, tail, or center.  And the rate of change of transfer from one area to the other.  Choice of body position.  Choice of when to do it, or timing.  You are simply declaring all technique to be balance, the two are the same for you.  If we accept your premise, then of course we have to agree.  I know I don't accept the premise that all changes in which edge your weight is on is balance, as i can stay balanced in a number of positions and different areas of the ski my weight is on, or different pressures in different places and stay balanced.  _Choosing when and where to place your balance _is... ummmm technique.  And as easy as it sounds, "Don't sit back", most people find saying it is wayyyy easier than doing it.

Another example.  Angulation is part of balance in a turn, but where in the body you angulate is technique.


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## mondeo (Dec 3, 2010)

crank said:


> You can split hairs


Hairs are too wide enough for this discussion.


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## crank (Dec 3, 2010)

mister moose said:


> So you're saying which edge you have weight on is balance.  And by extension, which part of the ski, favoring the tip, tail, or center.  And the rate of change of transfer from one area to the other.  Choice of body position.  Choice of when to do it, or timing.  You are simply declaring all technique to be balance, the two are the same for you.  If we accept your premise, then of course we have to agree.  I know I don't accept the premise that all changes in which edge your weight is on is balance, as i can stay balanced in a number of positions and different areas of the ski my weight is on, or different pressures in different places and stay balanced.  _Choosing when and where to place your balance _is... ummmm technique.  And as easy as it sounds, "Don't sit back", most people find saying it is wayyyy easier than doing it.
> 
> Another example.  Angulation is part of balance in a turn, but where in the body you angulate is technique.




No, I'm saying that an intermediate with some basic technique skills needs to think about balance.  Getting your weight forward, for example is balance.  Don't lean back into the hill - balance. Weight o the downhill ski, balance.  Yes when you get into angulation you are talking technique to achieve proper balance.  Technique, IMO is a collection means to focus and concentrate one's balance to reach a desired effect, in this case control of skis while skiing harder terrain.  As I stated before, plenty of skiers, including a lot of intermediates, have the technique skills to turn and look good doing so on less than challenging terrain.  They know the technique but they cant use it because they don't understand that's it's all about balance.


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## 2knees (Dec 3, 2010)

crank said:


> I disagree.  Well yes good technique is important, but what is good technique is not an exact thing.  Many coaches would change Bode Miller's Technique yet it works for him. An intermediate, terminal or otherwise, will know how to turn their skis.  Still, they struggle on harder terrain.  Why? Balance!   As I stated in my earlier post, I have seen plenty of skiers who thought they were good, and even looked good on easier terrain.  Take them to the steeps or the bumps and the fall apart. The most important thing is balance.  You can split hairs, and maybe have to, by saying you need to have your weight (balance) on this edge or that edge, but it still boils down to balance.



I tend to agree with what your saying here.  What good is technique if there is no balance.  You have to have balance to do anything.  all else follows.


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## mondeo (Dec 3, 2010)

2knees said:


> I tend to agree with what your saying here. What good is technique if there is no balance. You have to have balance to do anything. all else follows.


But what is good balance without technique? Sure you can stand up straight, but if you can't lay the ski on edge while carving a non-skidded turn, who cares?


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## 2knees (Dec 3, 2010)

mondeo said:


> But what is good balance without technique? Sure you can stand up straight, but if you can't lay the ski on edge while carving a non-skidded turn, who cares?



balanced diet
balanced budget
balanced lifestyle


its all about balance these days.   geeez.


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## bigbog (Dec 3, 2010)

*Hammer*......guess I might as well get into this, just about everyone else with Web access is:lol:.  Ya...make note of what bindings you have..a bootguy will know what ramp angle it possesses..then get yourself to a bootguy, get thee aligned(fore/aft..& laterally).  Bootguy can assess your feet/leg/knee setup...and then can experiment and see where your best stance will be.
One can stand as upright as can be, but if your setup has you falling forward so that you have to lean back and pressure the back of your boot in order to keep from going "over the handlebars"...you'll constantly be in recovery mode = not the way to spend a day.
Things in the physical chain can change a little in just a year = the yearly checkup isn't always just for our cars....
It's a lot easier to be relaxed when you're standing relatively flat on skis....and relaxation is key to good, in-balance skiing...duh(nothing new)..LOL. 
$.01

....stuff snipped....

.I'm rambling again...just got my liners today, tomorrow get them heated a bit & fitted...am I ever amped.
Tuesday day #1....


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## mister moose (Dec 3, 2010)

2knees said:


> balanced diet



OK, so you'd be happy eating tofu, broccoli and eggs for lunch while I have a turkey sandwich?  You're having a balanced diet.



crank said:


> No, I'm saying that an intermediate with some basic technique skills needs to think about balance.  Getting your weight forward, for example is balance.  Don't lean back into the hill - balance. Weight on the downhill ski, balance.  Yes when you get into angulation you are talking technique to achieve proper balance.  Technique, IMO is a collection means to focus and concentrate one's balance to reach a desired effect, in this case control of skis while skiing harder terrain.  As I stated before, plenty of skiers, including a lot of intermediates, have the technique skills to turn and look good doing so on less than challenging terrain.  They know the technique but they cant use it because they don't understand that's it's all about balance.



You are talking about choosing where to place your 'balance'.  That's technique.  I'm using quotes because I wouldn't say it that way.  I would say center of effort, or pressure, or weight.  Balance is the art of keeping it there once you place it there.

Also, I disagree on the blue example.  Intermediates look good on easy slopes but fall apart on more challenging slopes because first and foremost their technique is holding them back.  Their choice of when or where to place their 'balance' is holding them back.  Also, they tend to have less tools at their disposal, tools and technique they need to do well on steeper slopes.  Balance is the act of staying at equilibrium,  not choice of body position, and not choice of movement type.

I don't mind agreeing to disagree.  We're not going to change the world here.


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## hammer (Dec 3, 2010)

bigbog said:


> *Hammer*......guess I might as well get into this, just about everyone else with Web access is:lol:.  Ya...make note of what bindings you have..a bootguy will know what ramp angle it possesses..then get yourself to a bootguy, get thee aligned(fore/aft..& laterally).  Bootguy can assess your feet/leg/knee setup...and then can experiment and see where your best stance will be.
> One can stand as upright as can be, but if your setup has you falling forward so that you have to lean back and pressure the back of your boot in order to keep from going "over the handlebars"...you'll constantly be in recovery mode = not the way to spend a day.
> Things in the physical chain can change a little in just a year = the yearly checkup isn't always just for our cars....
> It's a lot easier to be relaxed when you're standing relatively flat on skis....and relaxation is key to good, in-balance skiing...imho.
> $.01


Been to Jeff Bokum so I think the alignment stuff is set.  Only problem is that there are times when I feel like my boots (Tecnicas) have a lot of forward lean.  Not sure if I'm overcompensating there and ending up in the backseat, but it's something I'm aware of.

Lots of stuff here about balance and technique...guessing a lot of both is important unless one is athletic enough to make up for it, which I definitely am not.


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## 2knees (Dec 3, 2010)

mister moose said:


> OK, so you'd be happy eating tofu, broccoli and eggs for lunch



and chase it down with a nice V-8!


I will not be goaded into a real discussion.....:lol:


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## RISkier (Dec 3, 2010)

speden said:


> I read one of Harb's books a while back, "Essentials of Skiing".  It has a lot of useful information, but one thing I don't like about his approach is he talks about how things feel rather than the actual physics of what's happening at the edges.
> 
> For example, he says that you never need to use any rotary input on the skis.  Just tipping and balancing will get the job of carving turns done.  But I'd say that's baloney.
> 
> There's no way two unconnected skis are going to stay parallel without at least some moderate rotary input to fine tune their alignment.  People may not feel like they are adding any steering inputs to the skis since it's subtle and perhaps happening instinctively, but those inputs are happening and are necessary.



Interesting comments. Harb has a real axe to grind with PSIA and is kind of a lightening rod. I don't know enough of the details regarding the specific origin but I'm certain aware of personal acrimony between Harb and some PSIA folks. There's a degree to which the PMTS folks resemble a religious cult. For a true believer it's either Harb's way or it's the wrong way. We have a level III instructor who is a good friend and who I think skis brilliantly. He thinks Harb provides useful tools and drills, but would say Harb misses a lot of skills. Lots of folks rave about John Clendenin. We ended up having beers with a couple of folks who had worked with Clendenin; they basically said they went from non bump skiers to seeking out bumps all the time. I've looked at his stuff. We took a group lesson at Breck last year and I'll bet our instructor had worked with Clendenin. He was really teaching us to use the inside ski edges and use soft edging in many situations. I thought it really improved my skiing. While I think the world of ski instruction is much broader than PMTS, I do think that many of the drills Harb uses are excellent. But I do get tired of the PMTS vs PSIA crusade.


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## crank (Dec 3, 2010)

RISkier said:


> Interesting comments. Harb has a real axe to grind with PSIA and is kind of a lightening rod. I don't know enough of the details regarding the specific origin but I'm certain aware of personal acrimony between Harb and some PSIA folks. There's a degree to which the PMTS folks resemble a religious cult. For a true believer it's either Harb's way or it's the wrong way. We have a level III instructor who is a good friend and who I think skis brilliantly. He thinks Harb provides useful tools and drills, but would say Harb misses a lot of skills. Lots of folks rave about John Clendenin. We ended up having beers with a couple of folks who had worked with Clendenin; they basically said they went from non bump skiers to seeking out bumps all the time. I've looked at his stuff. We took a group lesson at Breck last year and I'll bet our instructor had worked with Clendenin. He was really teaching us to use the inside ski edges and use soft edging in many situations. I thought it really improved my skiing. While I think the world of ski instruction is much broader than PMTS, I do think that many of the drills Harb uses are excellent. But I do get tired of the PMTS vs PSIA crusade.



1. Yes there is more than one way to skin the cat.

2. Can't all of us skiers get along?

3. I agree to disagree......     and...

4. Who was that masked man?


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## riverc0il (Dec 3, 2010)

crank said:


> I disagree.  Well yes good technique is important, but what is good technique is not an exact thing.  Many coaches would change Bode Miller's Technique yet it works for him. An intermediate, terminal or otherwise, will know how to turn their skis.


I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Bode not having good Technique?  Intermediates who fall apart in steeper terrain don't have good technique. I don't recall ever seeing an intermediate that truly understood and knew how to make a good turn. If they did, they wouldn't be intermediates. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But this is no longer splitting hairs, IMO.


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## riverc0il (Dec 3, 2010)

crank said:


> As I stated before, plenty of skiers, including a lot of intermediates, have the technique skills to turn and look good doing so on less than challenging terrain.  They know the technique but they cant use it because they don't understand that's it's all about balance.


How is balancing on intermediate terrain different than balancing on steeper terrain? What changes besides the pitch of the terrain? 

I think of it completely differently. The steeper terrain amplifies the technical deficiencies that were still there, but more easily hidden, on the easier terrain. Its easy to be sloppy on easy terrain. Its why skiers who don't usually ski ice have a hard time of things when it gets slippery. They never angulate or pressure the ski just right... it just shows more visibly when conditions get tough. 

Balance is very very important. Getting forward on your skis may be the hardest thing to get a terminal intermediate doing. But you can have all the balance in the world and not have the technical prowess to get safely down a challenging run.

Another thing to look at is bumps vs steep groomers. A skier with GREAT balance can fall apart in the bumps because they don't absorb the bumps properly. That is a technical issue.


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## riverc0il (Dec 3, 2010)

speden said:


> I read one of Harb's books a while back, "Essentials of Skiing".  It has a lot of useful information, but one thing I don't like about his approach is he talks about how things feel rather than the actual physics of what's happening at the edges.
> 
> For example, he says that you never need to use any rotary input on the skis.  Just tipping and balancing will get the job of carving turns done.  But I'd say that's baloney.
> 
> There's no way two unconnected skis are going to stay parallel without at least some moderate rotary input to fine tune their alignment.  People may not feel like they are adding any steering inputs to the skis since it's subtle and perhaps happening instinctively, but those inputs are happening and are necessary.


Great observations here. I have never read this book (nor any ski technique book for that matter). But I think Harb would be doing his readers a disservice if he is suggesting skiers just learn how to make perfect carves relying exclusively on setting the edge, pressuring the ski, and going along for the ride. 

Rotary input is indeed important. Exclusive control of the skis without rotary is difficult to do at all times unless you have a wide open slope with no obstacles, other skiers, changing terrain, etc. I shoot for this type of turn. I've lost my touch since skiing trees and bumps and powder became my major focus. It feels really nice when you can whip your skis around in tight arcs without any rotary or speed scrubbing skid motions. But that is difficult to do exclusively and I don't think should be an ultimate of a technique book geared towards developing or intermediate skiers.


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## crank (Dec 4, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I couldn't disagree more with all of this. Bode not having good Technique?  Intermediates who fall apart in steeper terrain don't have good technique. I don't recall ever seeing an intermediate that truly understood and knew how to make a good turn. If they did, they wouldn't be intermediates. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. But this is no longer splitting hairs, IMO.



Did I say Bode doesn't have good technique?  No.  And if I implied that it was not intentional.  What I said was that coaches wanted to CHANGE his technique.  Technique can be a subjective thing. Balance cannot.  Different strokes for different folks and all that.  Intermediates who fall apart on steeper terrain lack balance and experience....OK , technique too.  Having said that, there is too much emphasis placed on technique.

One of the things I love about skiing is the individualism and self expression of the sport.  For instance, I love to bank turns.  I know it's crappy technique.  I know I'm occasionally gonna slide out.  I do it anyway because it's fun and I like the  way it feels.


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## mattchuck2 (Dec 6, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> How is balancing on intermediate terrain different than balancing on steeper terrain? What changes besides the pitch of the terrain?



People's confidence.

When terrain gets steep, people have a tendency to try to get closer to the slope (possibly to minimize the distance that they'd fall in the event of a crash).  The problem is, in order to progress as a skier, people need to get away from the mountain, not closer to it.  If you think about center of mass movement on a flat slope and a steep slope, the distance between the center of mass and the snow surface should be the same regardless of pitch.  It's easy for most skiers to keep this distance on a flatter slope, but on a steeper slope, you actually have to "put yourself out there."

A lot of skiers aren't willing to do this.


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## crank (Dec 6, 2010)

mattchuck2 said:


> People's confidence.
> 
> When terrain gets steep, people have a tendency to try to get closer to the slope (possibly to minimize the distance that they'd fall in the event of a crash).  The problem is, in order to progress as a skier, people need to get away from the mountain, not closer to it.  If you think about center of mass movement on a flat slope and a steep slope, the distance between the center of mass and the snow surface should be the same regardless of pitch.  It's easy for most skiers to keep this distance on a flatter slope, but on a steeper slope, you actually have to "put yourself out there."
> 
> A lot of skiers aren't willing to do this.



Exactly.


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## tjf67 (Dec 6, 2010)

hammer said:


> Been to Jeff Bokum so I think the alignment stuff is set.  Only problem is that there are times when I feel like my boots (Tecnicas) have a lot of forward lean.  Not sure if I'm overcompensating there and ending up in the backseat, but it's something I'm aware of.
> 
> Lots of stuff here about balance and technique...guessing a lot of both is important unless one is athletic enough to make up for it, which I definitely am not.



Thing I do to help intermediates become apt to ski anywhere.  First thing I look for are where are the arms.  EVERY TIME they are back seat there arms are behind them.  I take them to a spot on the hill and then have them make turns down a straight line without crossing over the outer lines five feet on either side.  They put there arms out in front and keep turning.  It gets to the point that they are barely going fast enough to initiate the turn.  When they can do that I take them to steep terrain.  Have them do the same drill.  If they screw up I ask them to remember where there arms are.  100% of the time they are behind them.   Next time you are back seat think about where your arms are and drive them out to the front.   If your arms are out front it is very hard not to set an edge. 
Once you are confident about being able to control speed on steeps then you can open it up a little keeping the same technique.  If you find yourself losing control think abut where your arms are and get them out front. 

Same goes for when you are in the air.  Push the arms out.

BUMBERS do it different so dont confuse the two.  Neither is better.


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## SkiFanE (Dec 6, 2010)

A little nervous about jumping into such a heated thread lol..but why not?!

I'm an expert female, started skiing when I was 5yo...so I really don't know 'how' to ski and can't teach anyone, but I can rip it up quite nicely.  I would spend 100% of my time in bumps if I could.

My simple advice:

1 - Strength.  Cannot underestimate the strength you need to be expert.  When you set your skis downhill you need 100% faith in your equipment, skills and body.  You have to avoid rocks, sticks and snowmaking crap in a split second continually during this early season - each of them would have sent my crashing, but I could use my strength to recover from all of them.  Workout, walk, run, do other sports...but get strong.  Otherwise the hill owns you, not matter what and then you'll get scared..segue into #2...
2 - Forget fear.  Hard to do, but when you send your skis downhill, forget it and just do what you need to, or else you lose focus on skills.
3 - Stance/balance.  If you don't have the correct stance for EVERY kind of condition, you won't get far.  Before every run I sorta jump up a little in my skis, rearrange my posture/back, get into position and let 'em run (you get slouchy and lazy on the lift ride, IMO, need to reset).  Every condition calls for something different, and even from top to bottom of run could be different.  If you don't switch it up for conditions, you won't progress.  This means I may have to stop mid-run and gather myself and start again - I hate skiing out of control, but I will if my stance/balance is not right.

Also..not sure this is advice, but I know experts will weigh in..but these 'all mt cruiser' skis are real hard to get to do much but cruise.  I've switched to a used pair of SL skis and love them...have NO problem on crust/ice and are great in the bumps that have crust/ice between them.  My last couple pairs of stick skis were SL but when I got shaped skis I went to cruisers...after 2 pairs I switched back to SL and love them.


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## ToddW (Dec 6, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Great observations here. I have never read this book (nor any ski technique book for that matter). But I think Harb would be doing his readers a disservice if he is suggesting skiers just learn how to make perfect carves relying exclusively on setting the edge, pressuring the ski, and going along for the ride.
> 
> Rotary input is indeed important. Exclusive control of the skis without rotary is difficult to do at all times unless you have a wide open slope with no obstacles, other skiers, changing terrain, etc. I shoot for this type of turn. I've lost my touch since skiing trees and bumps and powder became my major focus. It feels really nice when you can whip your skis around in tight arcs without any rotary or speed scrubbing skid motions. But that is difficult to do exclusively and I don't think should be an ultimate of a technique book geared towards developing or intermediate skiers.



Harb doesn't teaching riding the sidecut and he focuses more on non-carved "bulletproof short turns" for all-mountain skiing than on carved turns.  But he teaches that the same 5 essential movements lead to both types of turns.

He does teach skiers to avoid active (deliberate) rotary input.  Yes, in bumps too!  There do exist residual "passive" rotary torques due to the interaction of tipping skis onto edge and the construction of the lower body.   He teaches "counteracting movements" to cancel out this passive rotation during transition to provide crisp, precise transitions especially on ice.  If one follows his approach, it is surprisingly easy to ski without deliberate rotary input ... a plus in 3-D snow and also on firm conditions like the aftermath of the past two weeks' r*instorms in Vermont.

His approach and standard on-the-hill PSIA instruction are like oil and water -- they don't mix very well.  Harb's focused on getting dedicated skiers to very high levels of performance.  On-hill ski schools have an hour or two to get people moving conservatively on the hill without getting injured and a majority of their instructors don't have the opportunity to see the same student twice.  And their higher level classes assume the legacy of their lower level classes.  Two different goals, two different approaches.  Oil and water.

If you're curious, Harb has several short instructional videos on youtube (search for skiwhh on youtube), several full length DVDs, and a couple of technique books.  Adopting his approach will require that you rebuild your skiing from the ground up to establish a bulletproof foundation.  For the true skiing addict, this is a small price to pay for the outcome.  Besides, the journey's fun.  If it doesn't sound like your cup of tea, have fun on the slopes doing your own thing.


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## gmcunni (Dec 6, 2010)

i think i'm going to take a lesson this season.


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## 4aprice (Dec 7, 2010)

:grin:





SkiFanE said:


> I'm an expert female, started skiing when I was 5yo...so I really don't know 'how' to ski and can't teach anyone, but I can rip it up quite nicely.  I would spend 100% of my time in bumps if I could..



Man if I was single I would be in love.    Love hearing a woman talk that way8)

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ

PS: I love my wife


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## 2knees (Dec 7, 2010)

tjf67 said:


> Thing I do to help intermediates become apt to ski anywhere.....



Point them in the direction of the ski school and walk away.


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## mister moose (Dec 7, 2010)

SkiFanE said:


> I'm an expert female, started skiing when I was 5yo...





4aprice said:


> Man if I was single I would be in love.    Love hearing a woman talk that way8)



I notice she said she's an expert female, not an expert skier.  not that that's a bad thing either....:wink:



4aprice said:


> Also..not sure this is advice, but I know experts will weigh in..but these 'all mt cruiser' skis are real hard to get to do much but cruise.  I've switched to a used pair of SL skis and love them...have NO problem on crust/ice and are great in the bumps that have crust/ice between them.  My last couple pairs of stick skis were SL but when I got shaped skis I went to cruisers...after 2 pairs I switched back to SL and love them.



I've found I like to have a softer mid fat, a stiff ice skate, a wider wet powder/slush ski, and a carving ski.  My "all mountains" are gathering dust.


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## SkiFanE (Dec 7, 2010)

mister moose said:


> I notice she said she's an expert female, not an expert skier.  not that that's a bad thing either....:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I've found I like to have a softer mid fat, a stiff ice skate, a wider wet powder/slush ski, and a carving ski.  My "all mountains" are gathering dust.



Problem with quoting, sorry.

I'm an expert female skier     Met my hubby who started skiing at 3yo and we didn't even ski together for a couple years (poor college students).  Except when he ditches me for the steep woods, we are 100% compatible skiers, like the same stuff and are same speed.  Match made in ski heaven 

I am a one quiver skier, but do want to get a wider ski for powder - tried hubby's mid-fats last winter with 12" of powder and loved them...but once it got bumped up wanted to go back to my SLs.  He got demo bindings on them so we could "share", but only when he skips a pow day (rarely) - so I want my own.


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## jrmagic (Dec 7, 2010)

SkiFanE said:


> ...but once it got bumped up wanted to go back to my SLs.



Probably my favorite pair of skis since shaped skis came out were my Atomic SL11s. Those things were beasts that could rail even the hardest snow with ease and of course were ultra quick.


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## SkiFanE (Dec 7, 2010)

mister moose said:


> I notice she said she's an expert female, not an expert skier.  not that that's a bad thing either....:wink:
> 
> 
> 
> I've found I like to have a softer mid fat, a stiff ice skate, a wider wet powder/slush ski, and a carving ski.  My "all mountains" are gathering dust.





jrmagic said:


> Probably my favorite pair of skis since shaped skis came out were my Atomic SL11s. Those things were beasts that could rail even the hardest snow with ease and of course were ultra quick.



Last year I grabbed a pair of little-used Head SL skis that we bought used for my teen and were gathering dust (don't remember the model).  Went from 163 volkls to 155 SLs and will stick with SLs.  Need another used/cheap pair, as I bent (or rockered ha ha) these Heads in the bumps last spring..but still working just fine.  I was pleasantly surprised that they held edge on ice as well as my volkls.  The only big issue is it's harder to scrub speed with them, if needed, w/o leaving the bump run.


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## bigbog (Dec 8, 2010)

hammer said:


> Been to Jeff Bokum so I think the alignment stuff is set.  Only problem is that there are times when I feel like my boots (Tecnicas) have a lot of forward lean.  Not sure if I'm overcompensating there and ending up in the backseat, but it's something I'm aware of.
> 
> Lots of stuff here about balance and technique...guessing a lot of both is important unless one is athletic enough to make up for it, which I definitely am not.



Oh Yeah Hammer!!  Without a doubt...if that forward lean is excessive for our physical makeup = leaNing back onto the back of the cuff = pressuring tail of ski...not to mention your hurtin' quads!  Other guys may have a trick or two to at least survive for a day....


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