# Foreward flex



## Greg (May 16, 2008)

I've been thinking about this for a while. I think my boots might be a tad too stiff and not allowing for enough forward flex as I should have. I'm currently in Nordica Speed Machine 12s and I like the fit, but in videos I've watched, it seems I stay pretty much over the center of the ski no matter how much shin pressure I try to get. It's probably more operator error than anything else, but is there a way to get more forward flex out of the Speed Machines? The boot is always set on soft and I like the fit overall. Are there any safe modifications one can do to the shell to allow it to flex more?


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## marcski (May 16, 2008)

Greg said:


> Are there any safe modifications one can do to the shell to allow it to flex more?



Ride that bike more and work your quads.  

I ski on the speed machines and love them as well.  I think they're a great all-mtn boot. I think if you're going to be the mogul whore we all know you're becoming, [  ] perhaps a mogul specific soft boot might do you better?


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## Greg (May 16, 2008)

marcski said:


> Ride that bike more and work your quads.
> 
> I ski on the speed machines and love them as well.  I think they're a great all-mtn boot. I think if you're going to be the mogul whore we all know you're becoming, [  ] perhaps a mogul specific soft boot might do you better?



Ha. You're probably right. These stick-like excuses for legs probably could use some help... :lol:


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2008)

Greg said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while. I think my boots might be a tad too stiff and not allowing for enough forward flex as I should have. I'm currently in Nordica Speed Machine 12s and I like the fit, but in videos I've watched, it seems I stay pretty much over the center of the ski no matter how much shin pressure I try to get. It's probably more operator error than anything else, but is there a way to get more forward flex out of the Speed Machines? The boot is always set on soft and I like the fit overall. Are there any safe modifications one can do to the shell to allow it to flex more?



If you think they are too stiff for you, you can have a bootfitter cut some of the material from the cuff to soften it up.


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## jack97 (May 16, 2008)

heel lifts to get some foward lean... it might add hot spots in the ankle area.

dunno what can be done to the shell, if you want to stick with them, I agree with wa loaf and take them to a boot fitter, they might know how to make some adjustments.


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## wa-loaf (May 16, 2008)

jack97 said:


> heel lifts to get some foward lean... it might add hot spots in the ankle area.
> 
> dunno what can be done to the shell, if you want to stick with them, I agree with wa loaf and take them to a boot fitter, they might know how to make some adjustments.



The speed machines have an adjustable spoiler have you set as far forward as possible, that will give you more forward lean. Won't help much with the flex though.


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## jack97 (May 16, 2008)

marcski said:


> I ski on the speed machines and love them as well.  I think they're a great all-mtn boot. I think if you're going to be the mogul whore we all know you're becoming, [  ] perhaps a mogul specific soft boot might do you better?



From what I have gather, back in the day, the flexon comp was used by wc racers and bumpers. The cabrio design provides lateral stiffness along with the better forward flex. Setting aside the mogul whores, it might be a great all mnt boot as well.


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## mondeo (May 16, 2008)

Love my Kryptons, but I do have the stiff tongue in them, putting em in the 140 range. My impression going from a flexy upright boot to a stiff, more forward leaned boot, is that it isn't the flex that matters so much as it is the forward lean. If you get more forward lean in the boot, it'll naturally bring your hips farther forward when you're standing proud, which will do the work of keeping pressure on the shin for you. With the Kryptons I was actually able to break my habit of being bent over in an attempt to keep my weight forward. I like to keep the boot stiffer because it feels more responsive. Remember, all you're trying to do is keep forward pressure, not put the weight as far forward as possible. A stiffer boot/tongue lets you get a better feel for when you've got pressure on the tongue without having to overdo it. The whole soft/medium boot for bumps thing I think is just the fact that most non-bumpers equate moguls to a lot of banging around. Stiff works great if you're doing it right (not that I am, of course.)

And the cabrio design eliminates _all_ boot bash. Definitely, for your next pair, get the Kryptons or Full Tilts.


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## JimG. (May 16, 2008)

I've said it before...I think most folks ski in boots that are too stiff fore and aft.

Any good alpine ski boot will be very stiff laterally...that's good.

But I much prefer a boot that is soft fore and aft. Especially in bumps.

It's why I use AT boots (that are admittedly very stiff for AT boots but still much softer than a typical alpine boot).


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## jack97 (May 17, 2008)

mondeo said:


> And the cabrio design eliminates _all_ boot bash. Definitely, for your next pair, get the Kryptons or Full Tilts.



It looks like both have shims for the heel wedge to get forward lean, the krypton has two different size shims for adjustment. The full tilts only has one size shim, but I read that some have alter that shim to get more lean.


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## bigbog (May 17, 2008)

*....doesn't sound wacko to me...*

The old pre-season "tuning up the body" only helps!
From what I read...you, like myself, are using neither the stiffest nor the heaviest ski(s), so why not try going to a little softer and/or lighter Fflex.   Most all good boots these days are pretty stiff laterally.
I might wait till fall/tail end of your pre-season routine before even putting a boot on...keep the 12s as they are and try to find some 10s or something that's a little softer, then just see how it goes...cause it's not a 180deg change....(I don't Think).

$.01
Steve


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 18, 2008)

After 4 years in lange boots..I enjoy being in a softer Atomic recreational boot..ideal for me would be something in the middle of the spectrum..


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## drjeff (May 18, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> After 4 years in lange boots..I enjoy being in a softer Atomic recreational boot..ideal for me would be something in the middle of the spectrum..



Man,  I've been a lange guy (generally race boot model) for almost 25 years now.  I don't know what my feet would do if I tried to put anything else but a lange on them, as my foot shape is pretty much tailor made for a lange.  Typically when it's time for a new pair,  it's just grab whatever model I want in a size 10.5 shell,  get a new pair of footbeds made and that's it.  No need for any shell stretching/toebox blowout etc.  Just insert a new pair of footbeds,  buckle them up and I've got very comfortable feet and great, predictable performance from the 1st turn 

Let see over the years, I've had the orange ones, the yellow ones, the pink ones, the teal ones, and the royal blue ones.  I'm likely due for a new pair this season as the current ones are over 225 days used and there is DEFINATELY some liner packing that's occurred


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## Beetlenut (May 20, 2008)

Greg said:


> I've been thinking about this for a while. I think my boots might be a tad too stiff and not allowing for enough forward flex as I should have. I'm currently in Nordica Speed Machine 12s and I like the fit, but in videos I've watched, it seems I stay pretty much over the center of the ski no matter how much shin pressure I try to get. It's probably more operator error than anything else, but is there a way to get more forward flex out of the Speed Machines? The boot is always set on soft and I like the fit overall. Are there any safe modifications one can do to the shell to allow it to flex more?


 
That's why I went to a Rossi Soft boot! Very stif laterally, but I can lean or crouch forward as far as I want. Helps me keep pressure on the tongue. Also have a heal lift under my footbeds.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 20, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Man,  I've been a lange guy (generally race boot model) for almost 25 years now.  I don't know what my feet would do if I tried to put anything else but a lange on them, as my foot shape is pretty much tailor made for a lange.  Typically when it's time for a new pair,  it's just grab whatever model I want in a size 10.5 shell,  get a new pair of footbeds made and that's it.  No need for any shell stretching/toebox blowout etc.  Just insert a new pair of footbeds,  buckle them up and I've got very comfortable feet and great, predictable performance from the 1st turn
> 
> Let see over the years, I've had the orange ones, the yellow ones, the pink ones, the teal ones, and the royal blue ones.  I'm likely due for a new pair this season as the current ones are over 225 days used and there is DEFINATELY some liner packing that's occurred



Back in 2003..when I was living in Montana..I bought a pair of size 10 Lange L10s for $70 from a buddy of mine who worked at a ski shop.  I skied on them for 4 seasons and 300+ days..and they were snug for sure.  I would still be using them but the toe and heel pieces are really warped.  My Atomic boots were only $200 and I bought them as a one season boot...as I didn't want to invest the time and money into really steezy boots..I'm going to try out the Full Tilts in the fall..alot of people rave about them..


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## highpeaksdrifter (May 20, 2008)

You might like these Greg, Supercharger Ignition. Softer then the Sms (Flex 90/80) you're in now, but a similar fit (same last 100). Freeride/park type of boot, but nice all over the mountain. This years model is black and white. It has a hard/soft flex adjuster and the Booster Strap is nice to have.


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## kcyanks1 (May 21, 2008)

I have also wondered for years whether I actually ever flex my boot.  I think it's a pretty stiff boot.  Brand is Dolomite, I'm pretty sure, but I don't know the model off hand and am not at home.  I've had them for about 6 seasons so far.  I was planning on getting new boots when I got my skis this year, but after witnessing the torture of others in uncomfortable boots, I figured I might as well stick with the boots that don't cause me immense pain.  I do wonder though whether I really use them properly.  I guess I manage and have fun though


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## Greg (May 21, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> You might like these Greg, Supercharger Ignition. Softer then the Sms (Flex 90/80) you're in now, but a similar fit (same last 100). Freeride/park type of boot, but nice all over the mountain. This years model is black and white. It has a hard/soft flex adjuster and the Booster Strap is nice to have.



Very cool. Might just have to look into that!


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## eastcoastpowderhound (May 22, 2008)

Adding heel lifts and increasing the forward lean aren't the most effective methods for increasing your boot flex.  A heel lift will change the ramp angle and help you get your center of mass further forward...it will increase the pressure on the ball of your foot but it won't give you a trenendous mechanical advantage over the boot.  Increasing the forward lean will place you in a more aggressive position but won't allow you to flex the boot any more...and it also reduces your range of motion.  Take them to a reputable boot fitter....the lower shell can be cut/ground to soften the flex...but you don't want to do it at home or have any old hack do it.


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## jack97 (May 23, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> Adding heel lifts and increasing the forward lean aren't the most effective methods for increasing your boot flex.  A heel lift will change the ramp angle and help you get your center of mass further forward...it will increase the pressure on the ball of your foot but it won't give you a trenendous mechanical advantage over the boot.


Yup... however another consideration for a mogul whore like me is absorption range. The heel lift does increase ramp angle and that's a big plus for using all of the legs to absorb on the front side of the bump. The basic restriction is equivalent to squatting while flat footed, kind of hard to do for most people. Increasing the ramp angle allows one to squat further down while maintaining balance. Ron Lemaster outlines this consideration in his book, to judge whether your boots have good forward lean and ramp angle he suggest wearing them and squat down as low as you can go without losing balance. His criteria for good enuf is upper legs parallel to the floor without losing balance. Personally, I'm happy with going lower into a full squat. How  this relates to the bumps is if the boot doesn't have the forward lean; hinging (meaning collapsing the back forward) during the absorption is usually the result along with hunching over the back to get that cm over the front when making the turns. Having said this, it doesn't mean all is to be blame on the equipment, some could be  blame on the driver's side. 




eastcoastpowderhound said:


> Increasing the forward lean will place you in a more aggressive position but won't allow you to flex the boot any more...and it also reduces your range of motion.  Take them to a reputable boot fitter....the lower shell can be cut/ground to soften the flex...but you don't want to do it at home or have any old hack do it.


Yup (again), thats another consideration, flex range. My old boots was set on the softest flex but I could not get it to flex any further, it hits the "wall" at a certain point. It seems thats the typical restriction on most conventional design (meaning non cabrio designs).


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## ed-drum (May 23, 2008)

My new Full Tilt boots are the best boots I've ever owned. I noticed the difference the first day. I control the boot, the boot doesn't control me. Lightest boots on the market too! Ed


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## Greg (May 23, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Yup... however another consideration for a mogul whore like me is absorption range. The heel lift does increase ramp angle and that's a big plus for using all of the legs to absorb on the front side of the bump. The basic restriction is equivalent to squatting while flat footed, kind of hard to do for most people. Increasing the ramp angle allows one to squat further down while maintaining balance. Ron Lemaster outlines this consideration in his book, to judge whether your boots have good forward lean and ramp angle he suggest wearing them and squat down as low as you can go without losing balance. His criteria for good enuf is upper legs parallel to the floor without losing balance. Personally, I'm happy with going lower into a full squat. How  this relates to the bumps is if the boot doesn't have the forward lean; hinging (meaning collapsing the back forward) during the absorption is usually the result along with hunching over the back to get that cm over the front when making the turns. Having said this, it doesn't mean all is to be blame on the equipment, some could be  blame on the driver's side.



Interesting. Can you get a heel lift anywhere, or does it have to be through a shop? I assume it goes under the footbed, not the liner, corect?


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## wa-loaf (May 23, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting. Can you get a heel lift anywhere, or does it have to be through a shop? I assume it goes under the footbed, not the liner, corect?



You can pick one up online. Try Tognar. Usually glued to the inside base of the boot under the liner.


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## jack97 (May 23, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting. Can you get a heel lift anywhere, or does it have to be through a shop? I assume it goes under the footbed, not the liner, corect?





wa-loaf said:


> You can pick one up online. Try Tognar. Usually glued to the inside base of the boot under the liner.




I duct tape mine inside the shell under the liner.  Tognar has them;

http://tognar.com/boot_heater_warmer_fitting_dryer_canting_dryers_ski_snowboard.html#SPK-HLS



BTW, I heard of using old liner material, cutting it out to form the heel lift.


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## JimG. (May 23, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting. Can you get a heel lift anywhere, or does it have to be through a shop? I assume it goes under the footbed, not the liner, corect?



Greg,

Heel lifts are usually fitted for folks with short or extremely inflexible/stretchable heel cords, also called Achilles tendons.

Do you have trouble flexing your ankles without ski boots on?

Get thee to thy bootfitter if you think you have that issue. 

Otherwise, try a softer shell or cut the cuffs on your current boots.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (May 23, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> My new Full Tilt boots are the best boots I've ever owned. I noticed the difference the first day. I control the boot, the boot doesn't control me. Lightest boots on the market too! Ed



I think those are the boots I want to buy in the fall..as long as they fit well..


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## Greg (May 23, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Greg,
> 
> Heel lifts are usually fitted for folks with short or extremely inflexible/stretchable heel cords, also called Achilles tendons.
> 
> ...


I know I have that issue. Jeff Bokum asked me to sit and put my feet flat on the floor, and the raise my toes up as far as possible while keeping my heels on the floor. I recall he wasn't impressed with my range of motion. I remember that he's not big on heel lifts. Something about how it can actually put you in the back seat.


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## ed-drum (May 24, 2008)

Steeze, I have a wide foot with a high instep. The Full Tilts were the first boot that I didn't have to get modified or blown out. (stretched) They fit right out of the box. And I was told they are a narrow boot.(?) The liners are great and WARM! You can also change the tongues to modify stiffness. The buckles are a ratchet design that are super easy to adjust. My friends noticed the difference because I went through the bumps effortlessly. (twice as fast, in control and I still stink in bumps) I have the Kamo model. Everybody says they look cool too. Ed.


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## jack97 (May 24, 2008)

Greg said:


> I remember that he's not big on heel lifts. Something about how it can actually put you in the back seat.



The standing belief is, getting into the backseat is a compensation of the cm brought forward due to the heel lifts. The opinion is when the cm is more toward the front rather than over center of the skis, skiers tend to stick the butt out and crouch to prevent the feeling of doing a “handle bar”. It’s the result of aggressively biting into the snow with the tip. By sticking that butt out, the cm is placed over center, thus that aggressive tip bite is gone. 

I think several factors come into play; the ramp angle and foward lean of the boot, the shapes of the ski, the binding position and most importantly, the skills involve while skiing with the front of the ski. Given there isn’t any uniform standard on ramp angle and forward lean on ski boots. Furthermore, using the Cabrawler (a straight ski by today’s standard) user mileage will vary in terms of how your body will adjust when you try to get more forward lean. That’s why I say try the heel lifts (with duct tape) and see how it feels on the slope, you have buds that will catch you on tape to see if it's making you go into the backseat.

It’s not like the end  of the world if you try this for a day or two.


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## JimG. (May 24, 2008)

jack97 said:


> It’s not like the end  of the world if you try this for a day or two.



Not being able to flex forward aggressively because his heel cords are tight is the problem and heel lifts are the prescription for sure.

I know many skiers who took the next step forward when this problem was fixed.


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## jack97 (May 25, 2008)

JimG. said:


> Not being able to flex forward aggressively because his heel cords are tight is the problem and heel lifts are the prescription for sure.
> 
> I know many skiers who took the next step forward when this problem was fixed.



No argurements from me. Thats why doing a squat test with the boot is a good indicator; skier's body and boots come into play. With my old boots, I can barely make parralel. My new setup, I can do full a squat.


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## Hawkshot99 (May 25, 2008)

Greg PM me a address and I will send some extra heel lifts I have lying around.


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