# Sugarbush death today



## deadheadskier (Jan 16, 2017)

Sad as always. Leaves a wife and three children.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ent-vermont/gnHmWJbzwwnD9BKdynilJO/story.html

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## dlague (Jan 16, 2017)

This is sad.  Wonder if the firm conditions caused him to lose control.  We talked about this in the other thread.

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## cdskier (Jan 16, 2017)

Very sad and tragic. I didn't ski ME this weekend so not sure how the conditions were there. The LP side was in good shape, but it doesn't take much to lose control. Head-on into a tree without a helmet is not something I even want to imagine.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2017)

Wow, prayers for his family.

Only time I go without a helmet anymore is some spring days when it's slush city and I keep the speeds down. I wonder how confident this poor fella was on the conditions he was skiing?


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## WWF-VT (Jan 17, 2017)

Threads like this one suck.  I skied the same trail minutes before this incident occurred and knew something was up when it was roped off by patrol.  I saw the sled go down the hill and when they loaded the ambulance and it did not leave my heart sank.  Very sad news for all .


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

What trail was it WWF?


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Leaves a wife and three children.



And they were right there.  Ugh...this is probably the worst of these stories I've seen.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2017)

dlague said:


> This is sad. * Wonder if the firm conditions caused him to lose control.  We talked about this in the other thread.*



This weekend was a recipe for injuries or far worse.  Heavy rain swiftly followed by impressively dropping temperatures on a holiday weekend is as bad as it gets for manufacturing ski accidents.


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Wow, prayers for his family.
> 
> Only time I go without a helmet anymore is some spring days when it's slush city and I keep the speeds down. I wonder how confident this poor fella was on the conditions he was skiing?


Same here but more recent years we have been wearing helmets even in the spring.  Not so concerned about ourselves but of others.  A Basin gets fairly busy between early May to mid June and the crazy diehards are flying down the runs.  Especially when things get down for a few trails.  

One of our friends sustained a concussion two years ago skiing at Killington in early May when he got taken out on a very nice warm sunny corn snow day.  He was wearing a ball cap.

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## Whitey (Jan 17, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This weekend was a recipe for injuries or far worse.  Heavy rain swiftly followed by impressively dropping temperatures on a holiday weekend is as bad as it gets for manufacturing ski accidents.



You posted before the weekend that you thought this would be a dangerous weekend.   Not something that you want to be right about, but you were.    

I ski on the hard right or left on weekends like this past one, right on the fringe of the trail and woods.   Always have, born and raised northeast skier.  Its where the snow gets pushed to and I feel "safer" in a couple of inches of stuff on the side than on the ice sheet in the middle.    But this kind of stuff is my greatest fear.  Catching an edge or somehow else loosing control and going into the woods/lft pole/snowmaking equip/etc.    Helmet or not, not many people walking away from that if you have any speed.


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## tumbler (Jan 17, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This weekend was a recipe for injuries or far worse.  Heavy rain swiftly followed by impressively dropping temperatures on a holiday weekend is as bad as it gets for manufacturing ski accidents.



Yes, but I was there all 3 days and the conditions were much better than anticipated.  The groomers were able to do much better than I expected.  There were some slick spots but not the entire trail.

Very sad indeed, I feel awful for the family but also for the patrollers that tried to resuscitate him and were unsuccessful.  That is not something you soon forget.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 17, 2017)

Obviously I don't know the exact details of how this happened, but based on previous fatal accidents I guess the most likely thing is that the skier lost control / hit a slick patch/ caught an edge and went into a tree. This happens often enough that I am wondering if maybe it's not obvious to people who don't ski that often in these conditions that it's actually one of the most dangerous scenarios in on-trail skiing. I could totally see how someone might think that they would have an opportunity to regain control, especially on a wider slope, when in fact they don't. Here's a case where some kind of safety awareness campaign or something might actually save lives -- I can't think of a succinct message other than "ski in control", though, and that's not exactly it either.


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

There has been talk in the industry regarding safety videos prior to skiing.  There is fine print on lift tickets and forms for season pass products but this is often not even recognized.  Lots of newer skiers have no idea what the Responsibility Code is much less the dangers conditions such might pose.

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## freeski (Jan 17, 2017)

When it gets slick the response is: get out the race skis and go fast. Not sure if it played a part here, probably not. Always sad when someone dies. But, with three kids horrible.


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## Jully (Jan 17, 2017)

I gotta say safety videos before skiing would be a little frustrating to me if I were forced to watch it. However, I can understand why they are pushing for that. I know some mountains require a 5 minute safety thing before going into a park. Anyone know how those worked out?


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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Here's a case where some kind of safety awareness campaign or something might actually save lives -- I can't think of a succinct message other than "ski in control", though, and that's not exactly it either.



Sugarbush (at least on the Super Bravo lift at LP, not sure about ME) has quite a few ski safety reminders on the lift towers...things like "always ski in control", "skiers in front have the right of way", etc.

But to your point, people don't realize how dangerous a groomed trail can truly be if you do happen to lose control. A "Blue square" rating sometimes gives people a false impression that it is automatically safer than something more difficult. I think one of the biggest things that can help is simply awareness that falls can happen to anyone no matter how good you are or what trail you are on. Therefore you should do everything in your power to protect yourself. That includes wearing a helmet. I'm not saying it would have helped in this scenario, but at least it would have had a chance of helping. The question is how do you effectively raise this awareness though and get people to pay attention?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Only time I go without a helmet anymore is some spring days when it's slush city and I keep the speeds down.



I used to do this.  Last year I modified my old helmet by taking all of the padding out around the ears and it's significantly less hot that way than my new helmet.  The "spring" helmet is pretty old and dented up due to years of getting whacked by branches while tree skiing, but I figure it's still marginally better than wearing no helmet at all.


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2017)

For all we know in this case, the victim could of been cut off by someone passing at a high rate of speed from behind with no warning, or it could of been the classical "I'll just ski the loose, soft stuff at the side of the trail" and hooked an edge scenario, or just a simple fall in a bad spot, or even some kind of medical issue before the collision with the tree happened..... We just don't know.

Just a tragic event for the family, the patrolers, the Sugarbush crew that I'm sure assisted the patrollers and likely the EMS crew as well.  May they all come through this event as well as possible


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 17, 2017)

I'm assuming that the barriers they put up along the sides of trails when racing is underway are meant to catch racers before they go into the woods. Would it be an effective use of limited patroller resources to figure out which slopes get the most high-speed traffic on slick days and temporarily deploy race barriers on those (with occasional gaps so we can get in and out of the woods)? Or would it encourage people to just go faster? (This is kinda like the helmets-vs-head injuries stats I've seen). I don't think this is a real solution but I don't have any great ideas.


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## LasersInTheTaiga (Jan 17, 2017)

drjeff said:


> For all we know in this case, the victim could of been cut off by someone passing at a high rate of speed from behind with no warning, or it could of been the classical "I'll just ski the loose, soft stuff at the side of the trail" and hooked an edge scenario, or just a simple fall in a bad spot, or even some kind of medical issue before the collision with the tree happened..... We just don't know.



Yeah, getting into the details of what happened here wasn't my intent -- I just think about this kind of accident a lot, especially after that accident at Cannon last year. Just thinking, like, can we maybe suggest some ways of making things even slightly safer (while remembering of course, that this can be an inherently dangerous sport.


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

Jully said:


> I gotta say safety videos before skiing would be a little frustrating to me if I were forced to watch it. However, I can understand why they are pushing for that. I know some mountains require a 5 minute safety thing before going into a park. Anyone know how those worked out?


As I understand it, it would not be everytime.  Just the first time at a resort then it is on file.  I can imagine the amount of additional resources it might take.  Probably the point of resistance at this time.

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## Jully (Jan 17, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I'm assuming that the barriers they put up along the sides of trails when racing is underway are meant to catch racers before they go into the woods. Would it be an effective use of limited patroller resources to figure out which slopes get the most high-speed traffic on slick days and temporarily deploy race barriers on those (with occasional gaps so we can get in and out of the woods)? Or would it encourage people to just go faster? (This is kinda like the helmets-vs-head injuries stats I've seen). I don't think this is a real solution but I don't have any great ideas.



I highly doubt that having barriers on the sides of trails would encourage people to go faster... to prevent tree deaths like this one, netting like that would be the most effective. I just don't know how realistic it is or if resorts even have that much netting. There's always going to be danger, like you said.


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

Jully said:


> I highly doubt that having barriers on the sides of trails would encourage people to go faster... to prevent tree deaths like this one, netting like that would be the most effective. I just don't know how realistic it is or if resorts even have that much netting. There's always going to be danger, like you said.


This also would require lots of resources to implement. 

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## 2Planker (Jan 17, 2017)

That doesn't always work in the resorts favor......

Someone can NOT watch the video then FULLY BLAME the resort, saying that it was never offered.  Plus, almost impossible to do on a Holiday weekend w/ 8-10,000 skiers






dlague said:


> As I understand it, it would not be everytime.  Just the first time at a resort then it is on file.  I can imagine the amount of additional resources it might take.  Probably the point of resistance at this time.
> 
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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> I'm assuming that the barriers they put up along the sides of trails when racing is underway are meant to catch racers before they go into the woods. Would it be an effective use of limited patroller resources to figure out which slopes get the most high-speed traffic on slick days and temporarily deploy race barriers on those (with occasional gaps so we can get in and out of the woods)? Or would it encourage people to just go faster? (This is kinda like the helmets-vs-head injuries stats I've seen). I don't think this is a real solution but I don't have any great ideas.



As an FYI about the types of race netting that you see.

Most of what you see along side of a race course are rolls of what is called "B-netting" - using one of the drills used to set race gates or safety marking poles or various signs we see on the hill, the netting is set in place, and it's not a quick process.  I've been involved in helping set up some of the race courses at Mount Snow in the past, and to line their Giant Slalom hill, which was about 3/4th's of a mile long, it took a team comprised of about 10 coaches and volunteer parents about an hour to set all the netting.  The B-netting then needs to be removed prior to the next time the trail is groomed, snow made on it, or a snowfall, so it is a vary labor intensive, time consuming process to set up.

The type of netting that Cannon has installed around some of it's new race facility is what's known as "A-netting" - it's much more expensive as it involves retention poles set into concrete foundations and then the much more substantial netting is then strung from retention pole to retention pole and given that it's usually about 15 to 20 high from ground level to the top of the retention poles, it's left in place 100% of the time, and the snowmakers and groomers work around it.  A netting is usually only found at ski areas that have very high level racing programs and/or regularly host high level races, as it is quite expensive to install


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2017)

Jully said:


> I highly doubt that having barriers on the sides of trails would encourage people to go faster... to prevent tree deaths like this one, netting like that would be the most effective. I just don't know how realistic it is or if resorts even have that much netting. There's always going to be danger, like you said.



I'd be fine with a little more netting in some high traffic dangerous locations.  There's a spot at Cannon called, "The Usual Spot" where several of us from AZ were there and saw a little girl going flying off the trail and somehow managed to miss hitting trees or snowmaking hydrants.  Complete miracle.  An area like that should have some fencing up.

Recently I saw some pictures from a ski resort in South Korea where literally every single trail was lined with protective netting.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Recently I saw some pictures from a ski resort in South Korea where literally every single trail was lined with protective netting.



And in at the new area built in North Korea folks are discouraged from skiing off trail by penalty of firing squad.


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## ghughes20 (Jan 17, 2017)

I wonder if landscaping could help create a natural barrier.  Saplings and small evergreens along the edge of trails, and Hardwoods set back father.  Obviously, something like this takes years to get to get going and would be costly.   But could be managed with selective eliminations of certain trees based upon location.

I skied Stratton on Sunday and Monday.  Monday was better and less crowded, but was still icy towards the EOD.  This winter is starting to feel a bit like last season - rain / freeze - repeat.


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## benski (Jan 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> But to your point, people don't realize how dangerous a groomed trail can truly be if you do happen to lose control. A "Blue square" rating sometimes gives people a false impression that it is automatically safer than something more difficult. I think one of the biggest things that can help is simply awareness that falls can happen to anyone no matter how good you are or what trail you are on. Therefore you should do everything in your power to protect yourself. That includes wearing a helmet. I'm not saying it would have helped in this scenario, but at least it would have had a chance of helping. The question is how do you effectively raise this awareness though and get people to pay attention?


Ski patrollers say the most dangerous trails are the easy ones. A ski patroller once told me most of the injuries at Mt. Ellen are at or bellow the North Ridge base terminal.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 17, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> And in at the new area built in North Korea folks are discouraged from skiing off trail by penalty of firing squad.



I recall that one too.  But this was in South Korea.  

For the record, I would not want to see safety fencing deployed to that degree.  Like I said, a few more key spots I could see.  Considering we're unlikely to see a lot of investment in things like terrain expansion moving forward, perhaps the focus shifts more towards things like improved safety.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2017)

benski said:


> Ski patrollers say the most dangerous trails are the easy ones.



I think it's partially that higher speeds are more commonly attained on easier trails, in concert with the fact that the level of skiers found on the easier trails is typically lower on-balance.   There's no doubt in my mind that the low-level intermediate skier on a low to average intermediate trail represents the venn diagram of highest ski injury risk.


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## bigbog (Jan 17, 2017)

Ice = very challenging + No helmet  =_ Not_ a good situation....


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## Domeskier (Jan 17, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Recently I saw some pictures from a ski resort in South Korea where literally every single trail was lined with protective netting.



I've skied a bunch of resorts in South Korea and that is pretty much universal.  I assume it has to be legally required.  Given the crowds and the reliance on snow making there, it probably prevents a lot of injuries.


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## Jully (Jan 17, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I recall that one too.  But this was in South Korea.
> 
> For the record, I would not want to see safety fencing deployed to that degree.  Like I said, a few more key spots I could see.  Considering we're unlikely to see a lot of investment in things like terrain expansion moving forward, perhaps the focus shifts more towards things like improved safety.



Too much netting like that would definitely ruin the feel of the mountains to some degree!


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## Glenn (Jan 17, 2017)

Wow! I grew up in that part of Massachusetts. I may have gone to high school with him. Terrible news.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 17, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> I've skied a bunch of resorts in South Korea and that is pretty much universal.  I assume it has to be legally required.



Sounds ugly as sin?


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

Plus netting would prevent the sudden urge to cut off into the woods.

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## benski (Jan 17, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think it's partially that higher speeds are more commonly attained on easier trails, in concert with the fact that the level of skiers found on the easier trails is typically lower on-balance.   There's no doubt in my mind that the low-level intermediate skier on a low to average intermediate trail represents the venn diagram of highest ski injury risk.



I think higher traffic, less caution and skiers who have yet to lear how to control themselves are also contributing factors.


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## spiderpig (Jan 17, 2017)

LasersInTheTaiga said:


> Obviously I don't know the exact details of how this happened, but based on previous fatal accidents I guess the most likely thing is that the skier lost control / hit a slick patch/ caught an edge and went into a tree. This happens often enough that I am wondering if maybe it's not obvious to people who don't ski that often in these conditions that it's actually one of the most dangerous scenarios in on-trail skiing. I could totally see how someone might think that they would have an opportunity to regain control, especially on a wider slope, when in fact they don't. Here's a case where some kind of safety awareness campaign or something might actually save lives -- I can't think of a succinct message other than "ski in control", though, and that's not exactly it either.



"Beware of changing snow conditions" is the most accurate, succinct thing I can think of. If it's on part of the trail map, a short explanation about higher-traffic trails later in the day can be added.


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## 2Planker (Jan 17, 2017)

Come On......
   NO HELMET and he went head fist into a tree....

As a 25 year patroller, we always dread the Thaw Freeze cycle, when there is minimal natural cover and on a holiday weekend...


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## goldsbar (Jan 17, 2017)

RIP.  I was at Mount Ellen the day before (Sunday).  Parts got up to 3" of light fresh snow in the AM which made some of the skiing pretty decent, but it was clear what was underneath and that became more and more apparent as that light snow got pushed off as the day progressed.  On my race-like skis I could do some carving, on my soft 98s it was more like sliding sideways with some marginal steering action.  A few sections would have required ice skates to carve.

I imagine Monday was like the end of Sunday.  The intermediate trails in the sun weren't bad at Lincoln Peak on Monday, but the trails in the shade were boilerplate.  I made the mistake of taking my 9 y/o down Stein's (he was fine with it 2 days prior).  My limited impression is that Lincoln peak gets far more grooming and snow making attention.


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## SkiFanE (Jan 17, 2017)

Husband I were talking about this over weekend. If we are going what we consider "slow", still going probably 20-25mph without much effort.  Medium is probably 25-40mph, then if you're really gunning it, 50 without a problem.  It's a freaking dangerous sport!  Helmets are rated for something like 14mph impact?  Do the math....you're in trouble even with a helmet on. 

For that reason I avoid ice and probably why I skied a total of 8 runs all weekend. I freak in ice because you speed up when you don't want to. I spend 95% of time hugging edge of trail in bumps. Trust me - I'm slow lol. Sometimes I can zipper down bumps on sides but usually I'm pretty slow and would have trouble if I hit a tree but probably not deadly. Snow pipes and machines scare me more. But I also avoid risk to the nth degree - why I bagged out in White Heat on Sunday. I wanted to be around Monday lol. 

Husband had huge crash with helmet on in 2010. When we read about this death - really hit us - we have 3 kids and they were skiing that day. Luck, good health, who knows what let him live that day (medflight, ICU, rehab, months out of work....).  We still ski and always will. But makes you appreciate each day on earth and on hill - but never disrespect the danger - keeps me in check.  Snow fences, more safety measures will not solve this, nothing will but common sense and luck when you hurl your body down an icy slope at 25+mph.  So be sure your disability and life insurance are current!


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Husband I were talking about this over weekend. If we are going what we consider "slow", still going probably 20-25mph without much effort.  Medium is probably 25-40mph, then if you're really gunning it, 50 without a problem.  It's a freaking dangerous sport!  Helmets are rated for something like 14mph impact?  Do the math....you're in trouble even with a helmet on.
> 
> For that reason I avoid ice and probably why I skied a total of 8 runs all weekend. I freak in ice because you speed up when you don't want to. I spend 95% of time hugging edge of trail in bumps. Trust me - I'm slow lol. Sometimes I can zipper down bumps on sides but usually I'm pretty slow and would have trouble if I hit a tree but probably not deadly. Snow pipes and machines scare me more. But I also avoid risk to the nth degree - why I bagged out in White Heat on Sunday. I wanted to be around Monday lol.
> 
> Husband had huge crash with helmet on in 2010. When we read about this death - really hit us - we have 3 kids and they were skiing that day. Luck, good health, who knows what let him live that day (medflight, ICU, rehab, months out of work....).  We still ski and always will. But makes you appreciate each day on earth and on hill - but never disrespect the danger - keeps me in check.  Snow fences, more safety measures will not solve this, nothing will but common sense and luck when you hurl your body down an icy slope at 25+mph.  So be sure your disability and life insurance are current!


Good post!  My wife and I were talking about helmet effectiveness last night and we came to the conclusion that a helmet while it may not be effective the faster you go, at least that is a magnitude of protection that is above no protection.  So in the end a helmet is not a guarantee but it is some level of protection.  

How many here have hit their head on branches going through the woods?

My wife feels much more comfortable skiing in Colorado with wider trails and open bowls.  We both have had falls that pushed us close to tree lines while skiing relatively fast and she feels less threaten here.  Trails not as crowded, not as many bottlenecks and softer trails and snow are also good.

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## cdskier (Jan 17, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> Husband I were talking about this over weekend. If we are going what we consider "slow", still going probably 20-25mph without much effort.  Medium is probably 25-40mph, then if you're really gunning it, 50 without a problem.  It's a freaking dangerous sport!  Helmets are rated for something like 14mph impact?  Do the math....you're in trouble even with a helmet on.



I don't go what I consider slow, and yet most days my gps app says I top out in the mid to upper 30s for speed (still plenty fast enough to do serious damage though). I don't know how accurate my gps app is, but it is fairly consistent so I'm inclined to think it is accurate. Usually the only times I hit 40+ are when I'm straightlining it down a runout.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 17, 2017)

SkiFanE,

This study, although somewhat dated, found that the average skier traveled at 26.7 mph.  So 25-40 mph may be what you consider to be medium speed, but you are definitely on the fringe.

https://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI12092.htm


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## SkiFanE (Jan 17, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> SkiFanE,
> 
> This study, although somewhat dated, found that the average skier traveled at 26.7 mph.  So 25-40 mph may be what you consider to be medium speed, but you are definitely on the fringe.
> 
> https://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/JAI/PAGES/JAI12092.htm



Oh I believe you.  I don't have GPS data (I work in iT and hate tech lmao) so I was just speculating. But the point was we go much faster than we realize. Even beginners are going at a decent clip.  I'll let my skis run (I usually ski volkls for their stability at speed) in right conditions - and last weekend I would never. Dust on crust makes me leery. After the snowy few weeks we had, my lackadaisical powder and bumps skiing stance was causing me to be a skidder so had to change up stance to power the front of skis to cut the ice.  Need to be ready for ice at any moment - hate that.


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## mccleaks (Jan 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I don't go what I consider slow, and yet most days my gps app says I top out in the mid to upper 30s for speed (still plenty fast enough to do serious damage though). I don't know how accurate my gps app is, but it is fairly consistent so I'm inclined to think it is accurate. Usually the only times I hit 40+ are when I'm straightlining it down a runout.



I use a GPS tracking app too. It says the top speed I hit last season was 59MPH. That was probably only once and on a day with some nice hard pack where I thought it would be fun to try and hit a top speed (probably straight lined something steep). I think 30-40 is definitely not out of the ordinary as an average speed for any decent and confident skier. That must be more than a helmet is rated for, but I guess helmet is better than nothing and we'd all hope to slow down a bit between the time you fall and the time you impact something.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 17, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I don't go what I consider slow



Nobody does.



SkiFanE said:


> I avoid ice



Don't we all!


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> Nobody does.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't we all!


I avoid ice too, so I movedown to Colorado!

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## Brad J (Jan 17, 2017)

In the early 80's Killington made a big deal that they had 11 snow grooming machines, and that winter thy had 5 death's before Presidents Day, My buddy and I sent the GM a letter with the premiss that grooming equals death's. IMO this was true then and is true today, People generally ski way over their heads on groomed slopes. Just notice your own speeds on ungroomed slopes, I am sure it's slower than on a hard and fast groomer. I just came back from Snowbird and with all the fresh snow we had there was almost nothing groomed out and smooth. The skiing speeds were considerable slower than back east. I know that groomers are the norm today but it has a price, and more death's helmets or not is the result.


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## dlague (Jan 17, 2017)

Brad J said:


> In the early 80's Killington made a big deal that they had 11 snow grooming machines, and that winter thy had 5 death's before Presidents Day, My buddy and I sent the GM a letter with the premiss that grooming equals death's. IMO this was true then and is true today, People generally ski way over their heads on groomed slopes. Just notice your own speeds on ungroomed slopes, I am sure it's slower than on a hard and fast groomer. I just came back from Snowbird and with all the fresh snow we had there was almost nothing groomed out and smooth. The skiing speeds were considerable slower than back east. I know that groomers are the norm today but it has a price, and more death's helmets or not is the result.


I get that! When there is fresh here in Colorado the runs are powder to chop and high speed runs are limited compared to groomers. 

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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

Brad J said:


> In the early 80's Killington made a big deal that they had 11 snow grooming machines, and that winter thy had 5 death's before Presidents Day, My buddy and I sent the GM a letter with the premiss that grooming equals death's. IMO this was true then and is true today, People generally ski way over their heads on groomed slopes. Just notice your own speeds on ungroomed slopes, I am sure it's slower than on a hard and fast groomer. I just came back from Snowbird and with all the fresh snow we had there was almost nothing groomed out and smooth. The skiing speeds were considerable slower than back east. I know that groomers are the norm today but it has a price, and more death's helmets or not is the result.



+1

I have said this for decades. Never heard of anyone dying skiing bumps and flying off the trail into trees.

Grooming=Death.


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## Jully (Jan 18, 2017)

JimG. said:


> +1
> 
> I have said this for decades. Never heard of anyone dying skiing bumps and flying off the trail into trees.
> 
> Grooming=Death.



Sure groomers have the potential to be more dangerous, but like it or not, ungroomed trails do not equate to skiing for many people today. Groomers are to skiing has become as synonymous as tractors are to farming for a substantial portion of the ski population. They can't imagine skiing without their corduroy. 

As much as I would appreciate it if many areas left more trails to bump up, it would actually be more dangerous if an area did that nowadays. Imagine if Wachusett left three trails to bump up. The weekend traffic on the remaining 4 groomed major trails would be insane and infinitely more dangerous.


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

Jully said:


> Sure groomers have the potential to be more dangerous, but like it or not, ungroomed trails do not equate to skiing for many people today. Groomers are to skiing has become as synonymous as tractors are to farming for a substantial portion of the ski population. They can't imagine skiing without their corduroy.
> 
> As much as I would appreciate it if many areas left more trails to bump up, it would actually be more dangerous if an area did that nowadays. Imagine if Wachusett left three trails to bump up. The weekend traffic on the remaining 4 groomed major trails would be insane and infinitely more dangerous.



I can't disagree with you. We live in a time of catering to the lowest common denominator.

Maybe folks could commit to becoming better skiers. And learning to ski ungroomed terrain. Maybe ski areas could promote teaching as a way to get better and then provide ski teachers who actually deliver on that idea. 

Stupid me! Just easier and cheaper for everyone to just bulldoze everything.


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## Not Sure (Jan 18, 2017)

JimG. said:


> +1
> 
> I have said this for decades. Never heard of anyone dying skiing bumps and flying off the trail into trees.
> 
> Grooming=Death.



I was at Killington in the 80's , Skiing bear mountain and watched someone being taken off Wildfire in a sled with their head  bandaged up there was a lot of blood !I later heard that they died ,not sure if they hit a tree or not .Condtions were really good but my friend who was an intermediate caught an edge and landed on the Mogul and dislocated his shoulder.

Back then nobody wore a helmet.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2017)

JimG. said:


> I can't disagree with you. We live in a time of catering to the lowest common denominator.
> 
> Maybe folks could commit to becoming better skiers. And learning to ski ungroomed terrain. Maybe ski areas could promote teaching as a way to get better and then provide ski teachers who actually deliver on that idea.
> 
> Stupid me! Just easier and cheaper for everyone to just bulldoze everything.



I enjoy a mixture of both. In the east with freeze/thaws and limited snow at times, not grooming would make skiing either not possible or not fun at times. Also not sure I agree that it is "easier and cheaper". Grooming costs a significant amount of money between equipment and staff.

At Sugarbush it isn't unusual for over 50% of the terrain to be UN-groomed. When conditions are good, I love the un-groomed. When conditions are not so good, you need grooming. Firm icy-bumps all over the mountain would turn many off from the sport.


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## Edd (Jan 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> When conditions are good, I love the un-groomed. When conditions are not so good, you need grooming. Firm icy-bumps all over the mountain would turn many off from the sport.



That's my take, also. If bumps were always spring-like or powdery, I'd rarely leave them. Usually, they aren't.

Edit: That's why YouTube vids with bump lessons make me roll my eyes. The bumps in those vids are never hard eastern ones, always soft western. Yeah, those I can ski decently. Please impress me with a "How to ski icy bumps" video. Haven't found that one yet.


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I enjoy a mixture of both. In the east with freeze/thaws and limited snow at times, not grooming would make skiing either not possible or not fun at times. Also not sure I agree that it is "easier and cheaper". Grooming costs a significant amount of money between equipment and staff.
> 
> At Sugarbush it isn't unusual for over 50% of the terrain to be UN-groomed. When conditions are good, I love the un-groomed. When conditions are not so good, you need grooming. Firm icy-bumps all over the mountain would turn many off from the sport.



I ski groomers, definitely more fun than ice bumps.

If my home hill groomed 50% and left 50% ungroomed I would not have posted anything. My impression of Peaks is that they groom EVERYTHING. At least that is the case at Hunter.

All I'm asking for is some balance like you as a pass holder get at SB. 

Maybe the best way to state my feelings is as follows: as it stands now with my experiences with Peaks at Hunter I will not be purchasing any Peaks pass next season. I'll stick with the NYS 3 in 1 and a midweek pass at K.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2017)

Jully said:


> As much as I would appreciate it if many areas left more trails to bump up, it would actually be more dangerous if an area did that nowadays. Imagine if Wachusett left three trails to bump up. The weekend traffic on the remaining 4 groomed major trails would be insane and infinitely more dangerous.



I couldn't disagree with you more.

Groomed trails are *WAY* more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it.  And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.


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## Jully (Jan 18, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Groomed trails are *WAY* more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it.  And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.



That is a fair point about reducing speed. I suppose I was more thinking of injuries in general rather than skiing deaths when I posted that.


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## dlague (Jan 18, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Groomed trails are *WAY* more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it.  And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.



Report to your point!

http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/west/2017/01/17/276221.htm



> According to the annual safety report by the National Ski Areas Association, the average person who died on the slopes of U.S. ski resorts during the 2015/2016 season was a 30-something experienced male skier wearing a helmet who hit a tree going too fast on an intermediate run.



Of course this year is not following the age or helmet stat they report.



> “Beginners on green runs tend to be more cautious,” said Jasper Shealy, who analyzes safety data for the association and has studied ski safety trends for more than 30 years. “It’s when you get on the blue runs with a mix of abilities and speeds that things become less controlled.”


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## benski (Jan 18, 2017)

I was going to Killington for spring skiing last year and was totally pissed to see outer limits was the only Ungroomed groomed trail. I understand some ski areas need every acre of grooming they can get for beginners but does Killington really need 4 groomed double blacks to handle all the people who hate moguls in mid march.


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## drjeff (Jan 18, 2017)

A plethora of groomed trails, especially in the East, for sure has the potential to be more dangerous to the those using the trails.

A plethora of ungroomed trails, most certainly in the East, will be more "dangerous" to the vast majority of resorts bottom lines!!


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.
> 
> Groomed trails are *WAY* more dangerous than an intermediate trail that's even mildly allowed to get baby bumps on it.  And even if we accept your logic that other groomed trails would become more crowded, which is possible, that too has a decreasing factor on speed, and it is the impact speed that kills in the vast majority of these skier deaths.



I go back to lowest common denominator thinking.

Nobody wants to admit (or dare say) that the real problem is poor skiers who venture onto expert trails they don't have the skills to ski safely on. So instead of telling these skiers to stay off those trails and putting infrastructure and employees in place to enforce those safety rules the solution is to dumb down the trail and make it "easier" so everyone can ski it.

Truly faulty thinking. There is no way that a steep headwall of ice is easier to ski than an equally icy headwall full of bumps. Fall on steep icy bumps and you hit a few then stop. Fall on steep flats and most skiers panic and slide far and fast. And some die.

All it is going to take is one lawsuit to this effect and the next thing you know there won't be any open expert terrain anymore.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2017)

Jully said:


> That is a fair point about reducing speed. *I suppose I was more thinking of injuries in general rather than skiing deaths *when I posted that.



Well if a trail becomes the Grand Central Parkway at rush hour, sure, I agree more injuries are likely.  But I still think there are more non-fatal injuries on groomers than on bump trails, partially due to decreased speed, and partially due to statistically greater average skills of skiers on bump trails, and well as skier numbers in general (i.e. more folks ski groomers than bumps).



dlague said:


> Report to your point!



Holy cow, that is literally precisely what I had guessed!   

Only slight caveat is I said "intermediate" skier, whereas this says "experienced", but that makes me wonder if they consider "experienced" to be any non-beginner?



> *the average person who died on the slopes of U.S. ski resorts during the 2015/2016 season was a 30-something experienced male skier wearing a helmet who hit a tree going too fast on an intermediate run.*


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## dlague (Jan 18, 2017)

benski said:


> I was going to Killington for spring skiing last year and was totally pissed to see outer limits was the only Ungroomed groomed trail. I understand some ski areas need every acre of grooming they can get for beginners but does Killington really need 4 groomed double blacks to handle all the people who hate moguls in mid march.



First, I do not think they are grooming black runs for beginners.  Second, I like groomed steeper runs where the conditions will change through the day and new bumps form.  Groomed steeper terrain does not stay groomed for long unless it is boiler plate or very frozen.  Third, not every advanced skier is a bump skier.

I know my knees can only take so much so I mix it up - may be Killington is addressing a target market that wants variety and is more focused not so much on beginners but the Intermediate to Advanced crowd.


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Only slight caveat is I said "intermediate" skier, whereas this says "experienced", but that makes me wonder if they consider "experienced" to be any non-beginner?



A fair assumption since they did not say "expert".


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## Domeskier (Jan 18, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Sounds ugly as sin?



Yep.  And no access to the trees if that's your thing.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2017)

Edd said:


> That's my take, also. If bumps were always spring-like or powdery, I'd rarely leave them. Usually, they aren't.
> 
> Edit: That's why YouTube vids with bump lessons make me roll my eyes. The bumps in those vids are never hard eastern ones, always soft western. Yeah, those I can ski decently. Please impress me with a "How to ski icy bumps" video. Haven't found that one yet.



Hah...so true!


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## dlague (Jan 18, 2017)

Edd said:


> That's my take, also. If bumps were always spring-like or powdery, I'd rarely leave them. Usually, they aren't.
> 
> Edit: That's why YouTube vids with bump lessons make me roll my eyes. The bumps in those vids are never hard eastern ones, always soft western. Yeah, those I can ski decently. Please impress me with a "How to ski icy bumps" video. Haven't found that one yet.


I have never been even remotely a fan of hard bumps.  They are sketchy at best.  Even in the spring when nights are frozen and days are warm, the first couple hours and not fun.

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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2017)

dlague said:


> Report to your point!
> 
> http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/west/2017/01/17/276221.htm



The Jasper Shealy guy frequently quoted in these articles has an impressive resume... (although perhaps I'm biased as he's a former professor from my alma mater)

https://www.rit.edu/alumni/news/story/where/Oct15


> Jasper “Jake” Shealy, retired head of the Industrial and Systems Engineering department in the Kate Gleason College of Engineering, has continued to combine his passion for research, statistics and snowsports since leaving RIT in 2000. Dr. Shealy is Emeritus Principal and Human Factors Engineer at Guidance Engineering and Applied Research in Seattle, WA (www.guidanceengineering.com), where he has consulted since 2000. As the company’s “science overlord,” he continues to play an active role conducting ski safety research and is recognized as an expert in determining root causes of systems failures in winter recreational sports including skiing, snowboarding, tubing, and sledding, as well consumer product failures and industrial accidents.
> 
> Dr. Shealy is currently a member of the Board of Directors of the International Society for Skiing Safety (ISSS). He also has been a co-investigator on the Sugarbush Ski Injury Research Project, with Dr. Robert J. Johnson and Carl Ettlinger of the Department of Orthopedics and Rehabilitation at the University of Vermont in Burlington. Together, they have conducted an ongoing study of skiing and snowboarding injuries at the Sugarbush Resort in Vermont. This study has continuously tracked injuries at Sugarbush since the winter of 1972/73 up to the present. The colleagues are also the authors of the ACL Awareness Project, and in 2006, co-authored “Do Helmets Reduce Fatalities or Merely Alter the Patterns of Death?” The findings described how helmets may be effective at preventing minor injuries, yet they have not been shown to reduce the overall incidence of fatalities in skiing and snowboarding. He continues updating the information and is called upon by media as an expert regularly.
> 
> Dr. Shealy is a sought-after snow sports safety speaker at conferences around the world. As a member of the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) and the International Society for Skiing Safety (ISSS), Dr. Shealy served as F27 Vice-Chair from 1993 to 1999, Chair from 2000 to 2006 and Vice-Chair again from 2007 to 2014. He served as a technical delegate representing the U.S. at ISO meetings on matters relating to ski and snowboard equipment issues from 1990 to 2013. And he is the current chair of the Statistics subcommittee and past chair of the Ski Boot subcommittee. Dr. Sealy is also a regular co-editor of Skiing Trauma and Safety.


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The Jasper Shealy guy frequently quoted in these articles has an impressive resume... (although perhaps I'm biased as he's a former professor from my alma mater)
> 
> https://www.rit.edu/alumni/news/story/where/Oct15



My son David is graduating from RIT this spring.


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## Whitey (Jan 18, 2017)

dlague said:


> I have never been even remotely a fan of hard bumps.  They are sketchy at best.  Even in the spring when nights are frozen and days are warm, the first couple hours and not fun.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



100% agree and I am the kind of skier where if the bumps are even marginally OK (some snow or somewhat soft) I'll ski them all day over groomed runs.   But when they are frozen solid I get nothing from skiing those.    

I think that many on this forum are too hard on the mtn ops at eastern areas and characterize them as mogul assassins who wake up every morning looking to crush and groom out every bump on the mtn like they were mice infesting their homes.   I think the reality is that once the bumps freeze solid - no one is skiing them and those runs are useless to the mtn.   Unless there's a chance at new snow covering them or the temps softening them up - if they want to get any use out of a frozen bump run then they have to groom them out and hope that they re-form after people start skiing that run again.


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## cdskier (Jan 18, 2017)

JimG. said:


> My son David is graduating from RIT this spring.



Congrats. It is a good school. I graduated back in 2004.


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## Jully (Jan 18, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well if a trail becomes the Grand Central Parkway at rush hour, sure, I agree more injuries are likely.  But I still think there are more non-fatal injuries on groomers than on bump trails, partially due to decreased speed, and partially due to statistically greater average skills of skiers on bump trails, and well as skier numbers in general (i.e. more folks ski groomers than bumps).



Oh I completely agree with you.

What I was getting at was that too many people ski groomers nowadays. If a resort tries to limit the number of groomed trails that previously groomed everything (i.e. Okemo, Wachusett) then they won't see a decrease in the number of injuries, they will see an increase. 

Substantially more 1-5 days/year skiers aren't going to pick up bumps if there are just more bump trails offered (though I'm sure a few would). They will all just crowd the crap out of whatever groomers are available making them more dangerous (though maybe not more deadly) than they already are.

Fixing the 'groomers are deadly' issue isn't as simple as stopping all grooming... it would require a massive culture shift in the sport with instructors, lessons, and publicity, like JimG mentioned. That'll be tough. Not to mention a good many resorts would see massive profit problems, like Dr. Jeff said!


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## Jully (Jan 18, 2017)

dlague said:


> I know my knees can only take so much so I mix it up - may be Killington is addressing a target market that wants variety and is more focused not so much on beginners but the Intermediate to Advanced crowd.



Also last spring... K groomed everything flat multiple times because of the especially horrible freeze-thaw cycle that was happening. Pretty sure they have way more ungroomed runs than Outer Limits on a regular basis, just maybe not last March.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2017)

dlague said:


> First, I do not think they are grooming black runs for beginners.  Second, I like groomed steeper runs where the conditions will change through the day and new bumps form.  Groomed steeper terrain does not stay groomed for long unless it is boiler plate or very frozen.  Third, not every advanced skier is a bump skier.
> 
> I know my knees can only take so much so I mix it up - may be Killington is addressing a target market that wants variety and is more focused not so much on beginners but the Intermediate to Advanced crowd.


I mix things up too, but unless I am misunderstanding you, I disagree with the statement "not every advanced skier is a bump skier."

If someone can't ski bumps reasonably well, I do not consider them an advanced skier.  To be an advanced skier, you need to be able to ski all terrain types very well.

In regards to grooming expert terrain, certain trails should never see a groomer unless it's need after a thaw/freeze event. Outer Limits I would consider to be such a trail.  Grooming it just dumbs it down for people who can't ski bumps.

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## chuckstah (Jan 18, 2017)

http://www.wcax.com/story/34288358/long-island-man-dies-in-snowboarding-accident-in-upstate-ny

Another death over this past weekend. A snowwboarder at Belleayre. This time. 

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## deadheadskier (Jan 18, 2017)

And in regards to skiing icy bumps, the WC event that just happened at Whiteface was on a frozen solid course except for the chopped up landings for the jumps.  

I may not ski as many bumps if they are icy, but I will still ski at least a few runs down them. Really no different to me than boiler plate groomers. 

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## dlague (Jan 18, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I mix things up too, but unless I am misunderstanding you, I disagree with the statement "not every advanced skier is a bump skier."
> 
> If someone can't ski bumps reasonably well, I do not consider them an advanced skier.  To be an advanced skier, you need to be able to ski all terrain types very well.
> 
> ...


Misunderstanding - what is meant is, there are advanced skiers that can ski bumps well but choose not to.

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## crank (Jan 18, 2017)

To quote an instructor who posts on some other boards:  "It's not that you can's ski bumps.  It's that you can't ski and bumps prove it."


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## Cornhead (Jan 18, 2017)

Two years ago I was skiing a bump run at Abasin, I thought to myself, this is one nice thing about Western skiing, no icy troughs in the bumps. Then it dawned on me, there were no icy troughs back home either, it was the year of the polar vortices, once it got cold, it stayed cold, none of the usual thaw/ freeze cycles.

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## Jully (Jan 18, 2017)

Cornhead said:


> Two years ago I was skiing a bump run at Abasin, I thought to myself, this is one nice thing about Western skiing, no icy troughs in the bumps. Then it dawned on me, there were no icy troughs back home either, it was the year of the polar vortices, once it got cold, it stayed cold, none of the usual thaw/ freeze cycles.
> 
> Sent from my R1 HD using AlpineZone mobile app



That was an amazing year. That was the year that I realized that ice does not have to live underneath all snow! I'm used to hitting ice in troughs after the first few hours of a powder day, never mind a week later!


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## VTKilarney (Jan 18, 2017)

Here is the simple reality.  If ski areas in the east stopped grooming, a tremendous amount of ski areas would go out of business.  I can't fault a ski area for doing something that ultimately keeps the lifts running.


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## dlague (Jan 18, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is the simple reality.  If ski areas in the east stopped grooming, a tremendous amount of ski areas would go out of business.  I can't fault a ski area for doing something that ultimately keeps the lifts running.


True that!

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## kbird (Jan 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Congrats. It is a good school. I graduated back in 2004.


Cool, Ritter class of '99 here!



chuckstah said:


> http://www.wcax.com/story/34288358/long-island-man-dies-in-snowboarding-accident-in-upstate-ny
> Another death over this past weekend. A snowwboarder at Belleayre. This time.


Ugg another person? This is horrible!


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## WWF-VT (Jan 18, 2017)

Can we change the title of this thread or close it ?  There was a tragic death at Mt Ellen two days ago and this thread has now gone down the path of helmets, grooming, moguls, ski resort finances and other rehashed topics that are well beyond extending condolences to the family and friends of the man who lost his life engaged in a sport that we are all passionate about.


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Congrats. It is a good school. I graduated back in 2004.



We have been very pleased. He has had a good college experience.


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## JimG. (Jan 18, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> http://www.wcax.com/story/34288358/long-island-man-dies-in-snowboarding-accident-in-upstate-ny
> 
> Another death over this past weekend. A snowwboarder at Belleayre. This time.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app



I guess this will put the thread back on track.

This past weekend the trails did get pretty icy by the end of the day. Lot's of boilerplate.


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Can we change the title of this thread or close it ?  There was a tragic death at Mt Ellen two days ago and this thread has now gone down the path of helmets, grooming, moguls, ski resort finances and other rehashed topics that are well beyond extending condolences to the family and friends of the man who lost his life engaged in a sport that we are all passionate about.



agreed.


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## dlague (Jan 19, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Can we change the title of this thread or close it ?  There was a tragic death at Mt Ellen two days ago and this thread has now gone down the path of helmets, grooming, moguls, ski resort finances and other rehashed topics that are well beyond extending condolences to the family and friends of the man who lost his life engaged in a sport that we are all passionate about.


That is a good point!

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## Whitey (Jan 19, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Can we change the title of this thread or close it ?  There was a tragic death at Mt Ellen two days ago and this thread has now gone down the path of helmets, grooming, moguls, ski resort finances and other rehashed topics that are well beyond extending condolences to the family and friends of the man who lost his life engaged in a sport that we are all passionate about.



Disagree.   

There is nothing that anyone can do to change what happened or bring the guy back.  It's tremendously sad what happened.  However, what you can do is try to learn something from the tragedy and maybe prevent it from happening again in the future.    I think the discussion about helmets, whether over-grooming is resulting in icy raceways, etc., are interesting & informative and has caused me to think about some aspects of skiing and mtn ops mgmt differently.    Maybe it will change nothing, but maybe someone reading these post will adjust their skiing, maybe the thoughts will somehow filter to someone in mountain ops who may adjust how they do things.   A long shot at best, I know.   But one thing we know for sure - just saying "so sad, my condolences to the family" and nothing else absolutely won't change anything or do anything to prevent the next one.


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## tumbler (Jan 19, 2017)

Then change the title or something.  We don't need to be constantly reminded that someone died, we know.  It's like in hockey you don't say "shut out" until the game is over.


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## Glenn (Jan 22, 2017)

Sadly, this is the person I thought it was. We went to school together for years, 1st grade through high school. He and I were on the ski team in high school. He was really good skier; started young, grew up skiing at Mount Snow and raced there for years. I feel terrible for the family. What a loss.


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## MommaBear (Jan 22, 2017)

Sorry to hear that Glen.  My thoughts and prayers are with you and his family.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 22, 2017)

Wow, really sorry to hear that.  The fact we now have 1st-hand information that he was a "really good skier" makes it seem even more  likely that the thaw-freeze conditions were likely at cause.  I hate that set-up, when I was young it didnt bother me in the least, but now that I'm older I just skip those weekends as I'm legitimately fearful of them.


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## Zermatt (Jan 22, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Then change the title or something.  We don't need to be constantly reminded that someone died, we know.  It's like in hockey you don't say "shut out" until the game is over.



Seriously. Can someone also please start a thread whenever someone dies driving to a ski area. I want to hear about every person that dies that has anything to do with skiing. 

Please post all injuries too. Broken bones, torn ligaments. Post everything that is bad. 


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 22, 2017)

billo said:


> Seriously. Can someone also please start a thread whenever someone dies driving to a ski area. I want to hear about every person that dies that has anything to do with skiing.
> 
> Please post all injuries too. Broken bones, torn ligaments. Post everything that is bad.
> 
> ...


I farted real bad today while skiing. Sounded wet. Those boxers might be lost for good......

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