# Sugarloaf Lift Accident - 3/21/15



## WJenness (Mar 21, 2015)

I hope everyone out there is alright...

Issue with the Kingpine chair this morning:

https://twitter.com/gwhoffmeister/status/579311060089511936

Tweet said the brake failed and chair went in reverse. :-(

What is going on up there? I am remembering the spillway chair from a few years ago.

Not good.

-w


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## WJenness (Mar 21, 2015)

Statement from Sugarloaf on Facebook:

[h=5]*Sugarloaf Mountain*
[/h]4 mins · Edited · 




_A lift evacuation is currently underway due to an accident on the King Pine Lift. Ski Patrol has confirmed a small number of injuries. Injured guests have been treated by ski patrol and are being transported off of the mountain. We are gathering information and will update you with more details when they become available_


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 21, 2015)

I was waiting in line at the Kingpine chair a while back, perhaps a month ago.  All the sudden one of the lifties started yelling and carrying on, cursing like crazy (very un-liftie behavior).  He said something like "F$%c this place!  I'm out of here!  I'm going home!".  It wasn't clear what pissed this guy off initially but then he explained it:  A large piece of metal broke off above him and hit him in the head (I think it kind of grazed him). He was very angry but apparently okay. The other liftie sent the skiers away saying, and I quote, "there could be a rollback risk".  

I thought to myself "that sucks, no Kingpine today".  I skied down and got on Whiffletree.  When I got back to the top I saw that Kingpine was running and loading skiers again.  I thought "must not be a big deal" and went and got on the chair.  It was unnerving that the chair was making a loud clunking noise, but I figured "they know what they are doing".

I love Sugarloaf.  I live here.  I have no ax to grind.  The above story is accurate without embellishment.  That is the way it happened.  Is it related to todays accident?  Probably not, but Sugarloaf is playing WAY too fast and loose with their safety policies in my opinion.  

Most of you know about the Spillway incident and some of you know about the snowmaker that was seriously injured this year.  It is time for Sugarloaf to take safety seriously and stop capitulating to marketing pressure to put their money in needless 30-person hot tubs and MAINTAIN THEIR GODDAMN INFRASTRUCTURE.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 21, 2015)

DaffyJeffy said:


> I was waiting in line at the Kingpine chair a while back, perhaps a month ago.  All the sudden one of the lifties started yelling and carrying on, cursing like crazy (very un-liftie behavior).  He said something like "F$%c this place!  I'm out of here!  I'm going home!".  It wasn't clear what pissed this guy off initially but then he explained it:  A large piece of metal broke off above him and hit him in the head (I think it kind of grazed him). He was very angry but apparently okay. The other liftie sent the skiers away saying, and I quote, "there could be a rollback risk".
> 
> I thought to myself "that sucks, no Kingpine today".  I skied down and got on Whiffletree.  When I got back to the top I saw that Kingpine was running and loading skiers again.  I thought "must not be a big deal" and went and got on the chair.  It was unnerving that the chair was making a loud clunking noise, but I figured "they know what they are doing".
> 
> ...


I believe CNL owns the lifts, not Boyne. Any upgrades would be CNL's responsibility. CNL is currently looking to liquidate all their ski area holdings so I wouldn't expect any upgrades in the near future.

Hope everyone is OK.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 21, 2015)

Hope all is well with in injured,.So sad. Sugar loaf Facebook posting comments seem to support above posts.


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 21, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I believe CNL owns the lifts, not Boyne. Any upgrades would be CNL's responsibility. CNL is currently looking to liquidate all their ski area holdings so I wouldn't expect any upgrades in the near future.
> 
> Hope everyone is OK.



When I say "Sugarloaf" I mean CNL, Boyne, and Sugarloaf management.  They all have some responsibility in keeping their guests safe.


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## Not Sure (Mar 21, 2015)

Was at Hunter on a middle school trip in the 70's , usually ride with the bar down , the person I was riding with insisted on leaving the bar up. About 100yds from the peak the lift stopped and rolled back 100' finally  grabbed and my chair swung and went 60 degrees on the backswing , I was basically staring at the ground from 50 plus feet , scared the hell out of me ! I cursed out my fellow passenger .


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 21, 2015)

My son happens to be there this weekend..  Ethan will not returns calls  Very concerned  Bad PR.  Have tried multiple times.


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 21, 2015)

BTW having challenges trying to respond to threads so not sure if it's me or the system.  Apologies in advance for the grammatical issues.......


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## ScottySkis (Mar 21, 2015)

sugarbushskier said:


> My son happens to be there this weekend..  Ethan will not returns calls  Very concerned  Bad PR.  Have tried multiple times.



Hope all is well. I remember not much service with Verizon when I was there at az  summit 2014.


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## sugarbushskier (Mar 21, 2015)

Just heard from him. He's fine.  Of course never even heard of accident.  I guess that's good.  Thanks for well wishes and hope all affected are OK.


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## Breakout12 (Mar 21, 2015)

A rollback is one of my biggest fears.  In my Big Tupper thread, someone linked a report of a 50' rollback there.  How often do these happen?

As an aside, I thought it was interesting how news channels were negotiating with the Twitter user in the comments.


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 21, 2015)

This will seriously hurt sugarloafs reputation. One accident can be considered a freak occurrence, but 2 in the last 5 years and people will assume it's an unsafe Mtn and just stay away.


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## Not Sure (Mar 21, 2015)

Breakout12 said:


> A rollback is one of my biggest fears.  In my Big Tupper thread, someone linked a report of a 50' rollback there.  How often do these happen?
> 
> As an aside, I thought it was interesting how news channels were negotiating with the Twitter user in the comments.



I've been on a rollback at Hunter and a lift evac at Shawnee in the Poconos fortunately it was 50f and sunny . Skied for forty plus years and have only met one other person who was evaced and no one else that has been on a rollback .

Was on Kingpine this year , had a shudder that resolved itself after passing 2 towers up from the bottom. 
I think if I was on a rollback that continued , I'd take my chances and jump.

Someone posted a video rollback test with cinder block weights on the chairs.
I don't think I would want to be flung off !

I'm thinking lift accidents occur more toward the end of the season,time to keep your radar up
Any event a rare occurrence


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## makimono (Mar 21, 2015)




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## slatham (Mar 21, 2015)

Well that video confirmed my long held belief that in a rollback its better to jump. Just have to wait until you're at lower heights closer to the base terminal. But not too close. Very scary though. Hope everyone is alright. Hope Sugarloaf gets its act together. 2 accidents in a couple years? I might be game to ski there but my kids? No way.


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## Not Sure (Mar 21, 2015)

Wow , scary !, although the speed that they are going is half the speed of the rollback I was on, it looks like there was marginal braking.


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## AdironRider (Mar 21, 2015)

Sounds like almost, if not all injuries, are from people jumping off. Probably not actually the best course of action in reality unless headed for the bottom terminal at unstoppable speeds.


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## Puck it (Mar 21, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Sounds like almost, if not all injuries, are from people jumping off. Probably not actually the best course of action in reality unless headed for the bottom terminal at unstoppable speeds.


One report said the injuries were at the load station too.


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## zoomzoom (Mar 21, 2015)

am sure most forum users know something about aerial lift braking sytems, but just for clarity:  

unless it can be proven that a lift cannot rollback, an aerial lift must have:
a service brake (usually applies on the gearbox input shaft) 
a drive sheave brake (applies on the drive bullwheel) 
a driveline anti-rollback (usally applies the gearbox input shaft)
a rollback device (usually applies on the bullwheel)

these are redundant sytems, and must be checked for function prior to operating for the public then logged on the ops sheet.  it's common for service and drive sheave brake stopping distances to be logged on this sheet.  per national standards, brakes must be torque-tested every 30 days of operation. 

for a lift to roll back, all must have failed.  a gearbox input shaft failure can take out the service brake and driveline rollback, but that still leaves 2 other devices that will prevent a rollback.  by now, you can be sure the lift inspector has already viewed the daily log, the monthy torque test log and has a good idea what failed.     

sorry to bore you.  : )


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## Not Sure (Mar 21, 2015)

Puck it said:


> One report said the injuries were at the load station too.



Can imagine people loading and the next group moving up, Stop reverse....and the group scrambling to get out of the way middle 2 people were like targets, side 2 could dive out of the way .

Seems the place not to be aside from the next loading group would be the first few chairs, no time to decide what to do.


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## St. Jerry (Mar 21, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zLojBpQ_I


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 21, 2015)

Judging by how wildly the downhill chairs (chairs that SHOULD be going downhill) are swinging, I think the roll back was much faster than that at its apex. You have to remember that people took out their cameras halfway and didn't get the whole thing.


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## LoafSkier19 (Mar 21, 2015)

They say it traveled 450 ft backwards in a matter of 30 seconds. For comparison, it's designed to run 450 ft per minute max when normally operating.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 21, 2015)

Awful.  

Going to be challenging for Boyne / CNL to move forward from this.   Sad day for all affected


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2015)

http://www.saminfo.com/news/seven-injured-lift-rollback-sugarloaf

SAM reports seven hurt.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## xlr8r (Mar 21, 2015)

The fact is that both the Spillway and now King Pine accidents should have been prevented by redundancy systems, but were not.  All lifts should have catchers on the sheaves to catch the haul rope in the case of a de-ropement.  But spillways haul rope was not caught, and fell to the ground.  All lifts also have redundancy brake systems to hold the lift in place during any stop or mechanical issue.  But King Pine's brakes did not hold the lift and had a rollback.  This is unnaccaptable to happen twice, something must seriously be wrong with Sugarloaf's lift department.  These aren't mechanical failures, these are failures of redundancy safety systems in place that are supposed to work when mechanical failures happen.


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## Not Sure (Mar 21, 2015)

LoafSkier19 said:


> They say it traveled 450 ft backwards in a matter of 30 seconds. For comparison, it's designed to run 450 ft per minute max when normally operating.



450' in 30 sec is 15 per second , emergency parachutes have a descent rate of 20' per second .I think injuries would be a lot more severe if there was no braking at all. JMO


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## deadheadskier (Mar 21, 2015)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> 450' in 30 sec is 15 per second , emergency parachutes have a descent rate of 20' per second .I think injuries would be a lot more severe if there was no braking at all. JMO



And most HSQ travel at a rate of 900-1100 feet per minute I believe.  So the lift was basically traveling backwards at the speed a HSQ goes forward.   I agree, some braking had to still be going on.


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## LoafSkier19 (Mar 21, 2015)

9 chairs went around the bull wheel. They are spaced according to Ethan's press release at 51 feet. So 459 feet. WCSH's report I believe said 20-30 seconds. That's where I got the number. They could be wrong.


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## billski (Mar 21, 2015)

Bangor Daily News


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 21, 2015)

I wonder what will be the fate of the lift. Not only for the rest of the season, but if it will be replaced ASAP like spillway


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## deadheadskier (Mar 21, 2015)

King Pine was the next Loaf lift scheduled to be replaced in their 20 year plan.  I thought this up coming summer was the plan.


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## Jully (Mar 21, 2015)

They time their planned replacements pretty perfectly at the end of a lift's life if this summer was the king pine replacement plan.

2 major accidents in 5 years is completely unacceptable.


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## millerm277 (Mar 21, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> King Pine was the next Loaf lift scheduled to be replaced in their 20 year plan.  I thought this up coming summer was the plan.



If that's correct, I'd expect a lot of suspicion about skimping on maintenance/repairs. It'd have had what, a handful of weeks remaining in it's life? Pretty good incentive for someone to say "it'll be fine until the end of the season" with regards to issues.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 21, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> I wonder what will be the fate of the lift. Not only for the rest of the season, but if it will be replaced ASAP like spillway


Killington will buy it as a replacement chair for South Ridge.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

More local coverage:

http://www.wmtw.com/news/4-injured-in-chairlift-accident-at-sugarloaf/31940752


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2015)

Their insurance rates are going to increase.   


.


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## Whitey (Mar 22, 2015)

I hope everyone is OK.   That should be my primary concern.   But my self-centered ego is wondering if the King Pine lift will be back up next weekend when I am there for 3 days. . .

Any of you chair lift geeks got any feeling for how long this will put this lift OOS?    The rest of this season?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm trying to remember how long Spillway went offline for.  It was not a short duration and may have been for the rest of the season.

At this point in the year, I'd shut it down for the season if I was Sugarloaf even if they get it repaired.   All that terrain can still be skied off Skyline.  If they open the lift back up I think folks will question how safe it is.


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## LoafSkier19 (Mar 22, 2015)

The Spillway repair was a couple months for sure. The accident happened in very late December and it was reopened around February vacation week I think.


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## xlr8r (Mar 22, 2015)

billski said:


> Bangor Daily News



Shows they can't even do a rope evac properly and safely.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

I prefer Ethan talking about the AZ Summit instead of chairlift incidents personally...


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm trying to remember how long Spillway went offline for.  It was not a short duration and may have been for the rest of the season.



They were able to get Spillway running after that incident.  IIRC, it was 2 or 3 weeks.  The state did extensive testing.

After that accident, the state conducted a full investigation.  By the time the state released their findings, most people had moved on.  That report was pretty disturbing.  I'll try to find a link when I get a chance.

I wonder how the state will respond this time if their report finds a similar level of mismanagement on Kingpine?

I think, as others have pointed out, Sugarloaf now has a serious public relations problem.  The best thing they could do to restore the public trust is to roll some heads at the upper management level.  I'm not suggesting in any way that any of the upper level guys are at fault, I'm just saying that would be a good response for the severity/frequency of these accidents.

Again, I love Sugarloaf and I'm a local here.  I hope whatever corporate entity comes to own the mountain, and whatever corporate entity comes to manage the mountain can one day live up to how awesome this mountain actually is.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

Is it https://www1.maine.gov/pfr/professi...nal Report Sugarloaf Spillway East Report.pdf


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2015)

Quick google search found Spillway accident occurred on 12/28 and reopened on 2/21.   I should have googled it before responding with my first comment.  :lol:


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Quick google search found Spillway accident occurred on 12/28 and reopened on 2/21.   I should have googled it before responding with my first comment.  :lol:



Wow I had forgotten that it was down that long!  

I rode Spillway the last day it ran...sigh, memories.


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## KD7000 (Mar 22, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Is it https://www1.maine.gov/pfr/professi...nal Report Sugarloaf Spillway East Report.pdf


 That's a fascinating report, thanks for posting.  Would love to see the diagrams and pictures that go with it.


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 22, 2015)

KD7000 said:


> That's a fascinating report, thanks for posting.  Would love to see the diagrams and pictures that go with it.



Yes, thanks for finding it.


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## Newpylong (Mar 22, 2015)

I hate to put anyone out of the job or preemptively place blame but this is a serious issue. If I was the Tramway board I would suspend their license pending results of the investigation.


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## Warp Daddy (Mar 22, 2015)

^^^^^^^^ hey u get a pass as a newly minted sleep deprived Daddy ...again kudos on the new future dh champ ,hope all is well with Mrs DHS .    So NOW i' m gonna give u a new handle here .......


How ' bout. "Deadhead Daddy"  has a certain elan  to it , n'est pas ? Or mebbe Bump Daddy

Warp DADDY


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## Nick (Mar 22, 2015)

was just reading about it this morning. crazy! brians favorite lift


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## BeefyBoy50 (Mar 22, 2015)

Why did people jump off the lift? It seems that was their first move when the chair started to roll back. Aren't your chances of getting hurt from jumping off a lift so much higher than just riding it until it stops?
Were all 7 injured as a result of jumping?


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2015)

I think the original plan in their 2020 plan was to use the king pine lift to replace the double runners. They would refurbish it and maybe add a carpet or something, but I don't think Sugarloaf was trying to let the lift run into the ground.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2015)

Because you can get flung from the chair if it swings around the bull wheel at that speed.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 22, 2015)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> Why did people jump off the lift? It seems that was their first move when the chair started to roll back. Aren't your chances of getting hurt from jumping off a lift so much higher than just riding it until it stops?
> Were all 7 injured as a result of jumping?



They were jumping as the chairs approached the base station. It's not too high there and you don't want to go around the bull wheel backwards in a chair at high speed.


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## bigbog (Mar 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm trying to remember how long Spillway went offline for.  It was not a short duration and may have been for the rest of the season.
> 
> At this point in the year, I'd shut it down for the season if I was Sugarloaf even if they get it repaired.   All that terrain can still be skied off Skyline.  If they open the lift back up I think folks will question how safe it is.



+1


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## zoomzoom (Mar 22, 2015)

regarding the question about jumping off a lift going in reverse:  assuming the alignment is ok and the rope isn't going to derope to the inside while running backwards (don't think about this too much, you'll never ski again) the decision on jumping may depend on your location.  knowing that the uphill load of people will eventually decrease and the lift will slow and stop it may be better to ride it out if you are on the upper half of the line.  you'll be going around the wheel if on the lower half of the line (roughly, depending on friction).  you might get tossed out (depends on line speed) or you may just go around the wheel and back up.  

from the initial twitter feed:   "chairs were swinging wildly and throwing people off going backwards through the loading area".


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## Puck it (Mar 22, 2015)

I would not want to go thru the load area with skis on.  I would jump off too.


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## POW (Mar 22, 2015)

Question...dumb or not so be it... If you have the lift bar down, and your holding on wouldn't the chances of you being "tossed" be greatly reduced? The speed on the pullback didn't look terrible based on the video...I guess I'd jump off if the drop was 5-7' but otherwise I think I'm locking the bar down and holding on with a death grip.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 22, 2015)

oompaloompa said:


> regarding the question about jumping off a lift going in reverse:  assuming the alignment is ok and the rope isn't going to derope to the inside while running backwards (don't think about this too much, you'll never ski again) the decision on jumping may depend on your location.  knowing that the uphill load of people will eventually decrease and the lift will slow and stop it may be better to ride it out if you are on the upper half of the line.  you'll be going around the wheel if on the lower half of the line (roughly, depending on friction).  you might get tossed out (depends on line speed) or you may just go around the wheel and back up.
> 
> from the initial twitter feed:   "chairs were swinging wildly and throwing people off going backwards through the loading area".



Ever load a chair and it stops right after you get on? Your tails hook up and get caught, now do that going really fast ....


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2015)

POW said:


> Question...dumb or not so be it... If you have the lift bar down, and your holding on wouldn't the chances of you being "tossed" be greatly reduced? The speed on the pullback didn't look terrible based on the video...I guess I'd jump off if the drop was 5-7' but otherwise I think I'm locking the bar down and holding on with a death grip.



The chair went 450 ft in 30". That means it was going close to a high speed quad's line speed. The skis make it tough to go through the station, but also you could get whiplash or get seriously injured. 

The videos did not appear to show the fastest part of the rollback.


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## ceo (Mar 22, 2015)

It looked like a couple of people did go around the bullwheel, but their chairs were pretty banged up, probably from the footrests getting caught on something.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 22, 2015)

You've gotta wonder if anyone waiting to get on the chair got nailed too.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 22, 2015)

Lots of details on what failed here: http://sugarloaf.com/media-room/press-releases/lift-rollback

All the back-ups failed except the emergency bullwheel brake.


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## jaytrem (Mar 22, 2015)

Jully said:


> The chair went 450 ft in 30". That means it was going close to a high speed quad's line speed. The skis make it tough to go through the station, but also you could get whiplash or get seriously injured.
> 
> The videos did not appear to show the fastest part of the rollback.



It seems like 450 feet in 30 seconds would give you the average speed, which is about the equivalent of a HSQ.  But it takes time to go from 0 to max speed and max speed back to 0.  Thus the max speed would be well above that of a HSQ.


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## mister moose (Mar 22, 2015)

Doubt it will happen to any of us, but 

Unless the lift is creeping, you do NOT want to go backwards through the bull wheel.  The mass of the skiers lowers the CG of the chair, and increases  the angular momentum.  Chairs will swing out and up and will catch and deform the tube at the grip.  Bang, smash, sling.

Odds are you want to eject skis before jumping.  You want less impact, the more surface area you hit the snow with, the harder the impact.  Think belly flop (ouch) vs dive.  Exception: shallow soft snow.

Eject skis, wait for 10 feet over ground, slide off, bend knees, roll and clear away to the side.

If it was a gearbox failure, where was the brake?

*Edit:  Bull  wheel "de-coupled"?  (removing service brake and motor from the bull wheel) That's massive component failure, this is bigger than just Sugarloaf.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2015)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwPP4i7ENvQ

Been posted before on this website.  Shows how dangerous a rollback can get.


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## Newpylong (Mar 22, 2015)

Just watched the video. Jeez that is scary. See the people in the chair uphill from those who jumped? They had no skis or boards on either, looks like they were ready to bail. No ring way you want to go around the wheel at those speeds they were smart to bail near the bottom.


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## zoomzoom (Mar 22, 2015)

very good that the loaf is getting info out rather than stonewalling.

gearbox failure took out service brake and high speed rollback leaving 2 more devices, the drop dog and drive sheave brake.  loaf media advisory states tha the drop dog failed to deploy, so that leaves the drive sheave brake.  am curious why the lift op had to apply the drive sheave brake, current standards require automatic application.  maybe an old(er) lift?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2015)

Not that old.  1988 install.


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## gmcunni (Mar 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwPP4i7ENvQ
> 
> Been posted before on this website.  Shows how dangerous a rollback can get.



holy shit! note to self.. eject skis and jump off.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2015)

Holy crap, that is terrifying.  

Not that it's likely I'd ever ski Sugarloaf given the 10+ hour drive, but given their recent safety record there is NO CHANCE IN HELL I would go there.  Just outrageously unacceptable.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> holy shit! note to self.. eject skis and jump off.



And I suppose this is why even though those people were at low elevation, they were jumping off the chairs? 

 I honestly had no idea that the chairs can be under so much force on a rollback that they basically "explode" off the wheel.  Probably not a safety tip I'll thankfully ever need to employ, but I'm glad I know just the same.  Pretty remarkable stuff.


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## gmcunni (Mar 22, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> And I suppose this is why even though those people were at low elevation, they were jumping off the chairs?
> 
> I honestly had no idea that the chairs can be under so much force on a rollback that they basically "explode" off the wheel.  Probably not a safety tip I'll thankfully ever need to employ, but I'm glad I know just the same.  Pretty remarkable stuff.



by the looks of that YT vid i assume those chairs are fixed grip. not sure what Sugarloaf's were but i wonder what would/could happen with a detachable?  with they detach and pile up at the base?


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## Cannonball (Mar 22, 2015)

BeefyBoy50 said:


> Why did people jump off the lift? It seems that was their first move when the chair started to roll back. Aren't your chances of getting hurt from jumping off a lift so much higher than just riding it until it stops?
> Were all 7 injured as a result of jumping?



I would absolutely jump off.  And without hesitation.  I've jumped off of lifts a handful of times for all different reasons. Quick thinking is you best bet...jump when you can instead of when it's too late.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 22, 2015)

King Pine lift is fixed grips.  Not sure what would happen with a Detachable chair.  I bet Bushmogulmaster would know the answer.


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## freeski (Mar 22, 2015)

I was on an escalator going up in a MBTA station in Boston when it failed. The escalator was packed with some very large woman in front and behind me. I remember thinking "those woman are very large". At any rate I heard the gears slip like when you mis-shift a bike and then it just let go. I was maybe 15" off the ground and in less than a second I was on the floor underneath the woman. I'd guess this is what it feels like when a lift fails. It's a good thing the lift attendant applied the safety brake because once the lift got moving with 200 some skiers it could have been horrible. I can only imagine being on a failed lift with no brake in a situation like the test video. 
The funniest part of the accident in Boston was the people who came over and laid beside the pile of people hoping a payout. A couple of people appeared really hurt, but most people pretended to be (not me). :-D


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> King Pine lift is fixed grips.  Not sure what would happen with a Detachable chair.  I bet Bushmogulmaster would know the answer.



That is a very good question.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> I've jumped off of lifts a handful of times for all different reasons.


You are either the unluckiest person on the planet or you are a little too eager to jump off a lift.  


.


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## Cannonball (Mar 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You are either the unluckiest person on the planet or you are a little too eager to jump off a lift.
> 
> 
> .



Or I've spent a LOT of time on lifts


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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Or I've spent a LOT of time on lifts



Even that's not enough for me to change the above statement.  


.


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## Cannonball (Mar 23, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> You are either the unluckiest person on the planet or you are a little too eager to jump off a lift.
> 
> 
> .



I feel luckier than the people who got hurt.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 23, 2015)

> The application of the emergency brake by the lift attendant likely prevented a more extensive rollback.



This person just earned a bonus for remembering the training, and under pressure, correctly performing their job and employing it.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just outrageously unacceptable.



+1.  Not a big fan of the American 'compensation culture' but in this case, someone deserves to get sued.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> holy shit! note to self.. eject skis and jump off.



Wouldn't you rather keep yous skis on and get some gliding before the big collapse ?   Kinda like getting rid of your skis prior to jumping a cliff.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 23, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> This person just earned a bonus for remembering the training, and under pressure, correctly performing their job and employing it.



I bet they thought about this possible in the past. +100!


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 23, 2015)

Depending on what the root cause is found to be, I'm wondering if there will be some review of the inspection process as well.  The lift was thoroughly inspected in the fall but maybe it wasn't thorough enough.  But on the other hand if this completely boils down to managerial negligence, then I agree that some heads should roll up there.


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## machski (Mar 23, 2015)

The initial findings state it just had a structural inspection the day before this happened on the drive.  The real question for me yet to be answered is why the Drop Dog failed to deploy and engage.  Also, I hate hearing how a single failure can eliminate 2 safety systems at once (in this case, the primary drive break and the auto anti-rollback system).  I'd these 2 systems are still designed in this manner on current lifts, wonder if new options will be examined moving forward to preclude this.  I have to say at THIS point, sounds like SL had done everything they should have regarding inspections/maintenance.  But obviously investigation still early on


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## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2015)

machski said:


> The initial findings state it just had a structural inspection the day before this happened on the drive.



personnally, I don't believe in coincidence.


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## billski (Mar 23, 2015)

machski said:


> The initial findings state it just had a structural inspection the day before



Structural = static inspection.  A dynamic (operational) inspection would be more helpful.  However, it's still possible that a catastrophic failure occurred - a part seized or shattered, something that might only have been detectable via an x-ray or similar test.  It's unlikely that extensive testing is done during the operating season.


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## billski (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Or I've spent a LOT of time on lifts


  What were these failures and what ski areas did they occur at?


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 23, 2015)

machski said:


> I have to say at THIS point, sounds like SL had done everything they should have regarding inspections/maintenance.  But obviously investigation still early on



I've been an industrial mechanic in the past although never on chairlifts.  The next logical question in my opinion becomes "what needs to change in the inspection/maintenance procedures?"

If I understand correctly, the gearbox had a overhaul/rebuild around 2011.  What are the required qualifications for the business performing the overhaul?  Is visual inspection enough or should more intense procedures like radiography be required?  Perhaps an annual rebuild?

It seem logical to come to the conclusion that these procedures are flawed in some way.

I'm wondering how SL gets insurance on their lifts?  Is it possible for the insurance co to have more strict requirements or does the state need to have a heavier hand?  I've always been a bit skeptical about the notion that private business can successfully self-regulate.

I'm very curious to what changes will be made and by whom.  It is my opinion that the fatalistic attitude that "accidents happen" is unacceptable.


----------



## billski (Mar 23, 2015)

"The preliminary findings showed the initial mechanical failure was in  one of the two gearboxes that connects the lift’s electric motor to the  drive bullwheel — the large metal wheel around which the cable  supporting the chairs revolves, Austin said.

 That failure decoupled the bullwheel from the lift’s primary brake on  the driveshaft and from the anti-reverse brake, which is the first of  three redundant mechanisms to prevent a rollback, he said.

 The final braking mechanism, known as a “drop dog” — a large metal  pin that drops into the bullwheel to prevent rotation — apparently  failed to deploy as designed. 

 The application of the emergency brake by the lift attendant likely prevented a more extensive rollback, Austin said."

Source:
Bangor Daily News, 3/22,updated 8:41 p. m.

http://bangordailynews.com/2015/03/...ty-devices-failed-in-sugarloaf-lift-accident/


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## gmcunni (Mar 23, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Wouldn't you rather keep yous skis on and get some gliding before the big collapse ?   Kinda like getting rid of your skis prior to jumping a cliff.



i think i'd take my chances with ejecting skis asap, raising the bar and looking behind me to gauge best time to jump and roll.. rolling of course would be dictated by the terrain i land in.

at least with skis off if i got to the bottom and things were not insane (like that video) i could raise up my legs so nothing was hanging below the chair and try and ride through the turn.


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## Cannonball (Mar 23, 2015)

billski said:


> What were these failures and what ski areas did they occur at?



Mary Jane: I don't know what the failure was but I was off the lift as soon as I heard the loud CLUNK and the lift stopped abruptly. It ended up being down for almost 2 hours.

Wildcat: Wind blowing chairs into the towers. 

Mittersill: Not a lift failure, but a liftie failure.  Loaded us on the chair with the seat flipped up.  Instead of stopping the lift he just started screaming "Oh My God Get Off The Lift!!!!"

Copper: Not a failure. Just a game we'd play when customers weren't around.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Mary Jane: I don't know what the failure was but I was off the lift as soon as I heard the loud CLUNK and the lift stopped abruptly. It ended up being down for almost 2 hours.
> 
> Wildcat: Wind blowing chairs into the towers.
> 
> ...



I personally love the Cannon one.


----------



## Cannonball (Mar 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I personally love the Cannon one.



That was the best for sure (MadMadWorld was on the chair in front of us).  We probably would have been fine riding all the way up sitting on just the bar.  But the liftie kid totally lost his shit.  My nephew jumped off at ~4 feet.  I jumped at ~10'.  Which was the point of my first post: if you're going to react do it quickly!  10' turns into 20' very quickly on a lift.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Mittersill: Not a lift failure, but a liftie failure.  Loaded us on the chair with the seat flipped up.  Instead of stopping the lift he just started screaming "Oh My God Get Off The Lift!!!!"



Performs well under pressure can be taken off of his resume ... good thing he wasn't in charge of the emergency brake at the Loaf!


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## Domeskier (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Mittersill: Not a lift failure, but a liftie failure.  Loaded us on the chair with the seat flipped up.  Instead of stopping the lift he just started screaming "Oh My God Get Off The Lift!!!!"



Something similar happened to me at a tiny place in NJ when I was a kid.  The teenage liftie put me on a taped off chair and then had the nerve to yell at me for not watching the chair/doing his job for him.  Didn't even let me off the thing.


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## yeggous (Mar 23, 2015)

I was at Black Mountain in NH a few weeks ago when they had to do a loft evac after a chair literally fell off the line of the old double chair. The owner was a total dick about it and refused refunds to those trapped on the chair. I swore never to return to that place. The state came in to inspect and has closed the lift indefinitely pending repairs including replacing all the grips.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 23, 2015)

Cannonball said:


> Mittersill: Not a lift failure, but a liftie failure.  Loaded us on the chair with the seat flipped up.  Instead of stopping the lift he just started screaming "Oh My God Get Off The Lift!!!!".



How does one ride a lift with the seat flipped up?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Wouldn't you rather keep yous skis on and get some gliding before the big collapse ?   Kinda like getting rid of your skis prior to jumping a cliff.



Yeah, I'd keep the skis on.  Especially if it's only a 8 or 10 foot drop like that or a tiny bit diagonal.



machski said:


> *The initial findings state it just had a structural inspection the day before this happened on the drive.*



How often do "structural inspections" occur?  This statement triggers the uber-cynic in me if they're statistically rare. 

 Or is this just a routing "kicking the tires" sort of thing that happens once a week?


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 23, 2015)

yeggous said:


> I was at Black Mountain in NH a few weeks ago when they had to do a loft evac after a chair literally fell off the line of the old double chair. The owner was a total dick about it and refused refunds to those trapped on the chair. I swore never to return to that place. The state came in to inspect and has closed the lift indefinitely pending repairs including replacing all the grips.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



Surprised there wasn't a thread about that. (Or I missed it?)
But googling "black mountain nh chairlift accident" finds nothing.  huh?


----------



## yeggous (Mar 23, 2015)

skifastr said:


> Surprised there wasn't a thread about that. (Or I missed it?)
> But googling "black mountain nh chairlift accident" finds nothing.  huh?



I was too busy drinking that weekend to remember to post it. If you check their snow report you'll notice they have not been running  the double nor will they until at least next season. It happened around noon on March 7. I know some people who were stranded.

Not only did the owner not offer a refund, he got angry with those who were complaining to the point of calling the police to control upset customers. The worst customer service I have ever seen.


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## yeggous (Mar 23, 2015)

New thread created on the Black Mountain accident so that I don't hijack this one:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...untain-chairlift-accident?p=897913#post897913


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

I know we've seen a lot of the videos posted, but I think this is the first one with the audio that I have seen and the cries and screams are gutwrenching.


----------



## wa-loaf (Mar 23, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I know we've seen a lot of the videos posted, but I think this is the first one with the audio that I have seen and the cries and screams are gutwrenching.



Not sure about this thread, but it's been up on Boston.com since Sunday.


----------



## bigbog (Mar 23, 2015)

DaffyJeffy said:


> I've been an industrial mechanic in the past although never on chairlifts.  The next logical question in my opinion becomes "what needs to change in the inspection/maintenance procedures?"
> 
> If I understand correctly, the gearbox had a overhaul/rebuild around 2011.  What are the required qualifications for the business performing the overhaul?  Is visual inspection enough or should more intense procedures like radiography be required?  Perhaps an annual rebuild?..





DaffyJeffy said:


> It seem logical to come to the conclusion that these procedures are flawed in some way.



Put mildly....



DaffyJeffy said:


> I'm wondering how SL gets insurance on their lifts?  Is it possible for the insurance co to have more strict requirements or does the state need to have a heavier hand?  I've always been a bit skeptical about the notion that private business can successfully self-regulate.
> 
> I'm very curious to what changes will be made and by whom.  It is my opinion that the fatalistic attitude that "accidents happen" is unacceptable.



+1
Self-regulation(in this industry) = corruption of the whole system...
Local Gov't = in bed with the industry...imho.


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2015)

DaffyJeffy said:


> I've always been a bit skeptical about the notion that private business can successfully self-regulate.



Yeah, it seems unlikely.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> Not sure about this thread, but it's been up on Boston.com since Sunday.



I figured.  I'd seen a silent version before; this was on TGR.


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## Domeskier (Mar 23, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> personnally, I don't believe in coincidence.



+1


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## zoomzoom (Mar 23, 2015)

have found no info/link anywhere on a "structural inspection", but this was in the press release:

"Just one day before the incident, the gearbox passed a sophisticated routine preventive maintenance procedure intended to identify potential problems."

the only "sophisticated routine maint procedure" done on gearboxes that i know of are bearing analysis and vibration analysis, usually done by an outside contractor as the equipment is expensive.  for these procedures it's best to get a baseline reading, then track Db (noise) over time as the equipment wears.  when the readings enter the "service" zone it's time to replace bearings, check your bearing preload and backlash, etc.       

here's pure speculation, for entertainment only!

maybe a noise was heard in the box and a contractor brought in for his opinion. the box was blessed as "ok" and the following day, boom.


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## catskillman (Mar 23, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> Ever load a chair and it stops right after you get on? Your tails hook up and get caught, now do that going really fast ....



not to mention, if the uphill chair are traveling fast enough they would bang into the lower chairs and break your legs, as happened to a friend of mine at Pico many years ago.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2015)

The 2016 AlpineZone summit can feature a _"chair jumping 101" _class.  

Cannonball can be one of the instructors.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 23, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> The 2016 AlpineZone summit can feature a _"chair jumping 101" _class.
> 
> Cannonball can be one of the instructors.



If the summit is held at Sugarloaf the need for such a class is apparently warranted, unfortunately...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2015)

I don't think I've seen this here....from Sugarloaf's Facebook page:



> Friends,
> With a moment of calm in the office this morning, we wanted to take the opportunity to touch base with you all on the events that occurred here yesterday.
> For those of you who aren't up to speed, all of the press releases issued yesterday can be found at www.sugarloaf.com/media-room, and additional updates will be posted there as well, as soon as they become available.
> Our first concern this morning is for those who were injured or otherwise impacted by yesterday's accident. We are relieved that the injuries were not more serious than they were, and we remain committed to assisting them in any way we can as they recover. The investigation into the cause of yesterday's accident is ongoing today, and our senior mountain operations and lift maintenance personnel are working with an engineer from the State Tramway board, and we'll likely have another independent lift engineer on site today.
> ...


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## slatham (Mar 23, 2015)

Slightly different response than Black Mountain........


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## steamboat1 (Mar 23, 2015)

No mention of free hot chocolate vouchers.


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## catskills (Mar 23, 2015)

Some good photos here on this skilifts.org thread that I have not seen posted anywhere else.  

One of the photos shows a bent chair.   Another shows two people in two chairs on the down hill side that obviously went around the bow wheel.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

catskills said:


> Some good photos here on this skilifts.org thread that I have not seen posted anywhere else.
> 
> One of the photos shows a bent chair.   Another shows two people in two chairs on the down hill side that obviously went around the bow wheel.



Any chance you can post them because I can't see them.


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## catskills (Mar 24, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Any chance you can post them because I can't see them.



Looks like you have to register and login to see the photos.  Many of the members on this forum are lift maintenance employees and the others are chair lift junkies.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 24, 2015)

catskills said:


> Looks like you have to register and login to see the photos.  Many of the members on this forum are lift maintenance employees and the others are chair lift junkies.



Exactly.  I'd still like to see the pics.


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## canobie#1 (Mar 25, 2015)

So.......King Pine Express next year?


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## skiMEbike (Mar 25, 2015)

MEDIA ADVISORY: Sugarloaf Rollback Investigation Reveals Apparent Lift Design Issue
MARCH 25, 2015
CARRABASSETT VALLEY, ME - A team of investigators, including Sugarloaf personnel, engineers from Boyne Resorts (Sugarloaf's parent company), and a licensed Maine lift inspector, have completed a preliminary review and investigation of the rollback of the King Pine Chairlift on Saturday , March 21, 2015.
Investigators determined that a fracture of the main drive shaft of the lift's secondary gearbox initiated the rollback, and that the lift's bullwheel brake engaged and operated properly.  
Investigators also identified an apparent manufacturer design issue in one of the lift's components as contributory to the accident.
Sugarloaf and Boyne engineers have also identified a retrofit for the system that corrects the issue.  
"Our first thoughts remain with those injured, and our sincere hope is for their speedy recovery," Sugarloaf General Manager John Diller said. "I'm grateful that we now have a clearer understanding of what occurred."  
Gear Box Failure:
The incident on King Pine occurred at approximately 11:30 Saturday morning, when a shaft in one of the two gearboxes that transfer power from the lift's electric motor to its bullwheel fractured.  
The gear boxes in the King Pine lift, along with every other lift at Sugarloaf, were subjected to a routine vibration assessment by an outside contractor the day before the incident, and no anomalies were detected that indicated such a fracture was imminent or likely.  
The fracture of the shaft resulted in the loss of both the primary service brake and the anti-reverse brake, leaving two additional braking systems intended to prevent a rollback.  
The failure of the shaft, in and of itself, should not have resulted in the rollback that occurred, if the lift's remaining systems had performed as intended.  
Bullwheel Brake Activation:
Though further investigation is still needed, findings suggest that an automatic system to activate the lift's bullwheel brake (identified as "emergency brake" in previous statements) activated properly. Additionally, the lift's operator quickly activated a manual control to apply the bullwheel brake.  
Bullwheel brake activation is, by design, not instantaneous, because an immediate stop of a moving lift can create sudden and dramatic movement along a lift's haul rope, potentially causing enough movement to cause skiers to fall out of chairs, a deropement of the lift, and other significant damage.  
In the time between bullwheel brake activation and the actual stoppage of the lift, the lift traveled backwards for a total of nine chair lengths, or approximately 460 feet, due to the weight of skiers on the lift, which was full.  
The investigators also found that a further system to prevent a rollback failed, due to an apparent design flaw.  
The Drop Dog:
The final system intended to automatically engage to prevent a lift rollback is commonly referred to in the ski industry as a "drop dog." Lifts are required to have some form of device to prevent the lift from counter-rotating, and variants of the drop dog approach are generally used today.  
The investigation revealed that one of the switches used in the safety circuit connected to the drop dog was an inappropriate switch for the intended application. This switch, which is designed to suspend the drop dog above the bullwheel when it senses forward rotation of the lift, can also suspend the drop dog when the lift rotates in reverse.  
This switch was provided by the lift's original manufacturer, and is still provided by the company that manufactures components for this type of lift.  
The investigation indicates that, had an appropriate switch been included in the system, the drop dog would have deployed and the rollback would have stopped immediately.  
Sugarloaf personnel and Boyne Resorts engineers, along with a licensed Maine lift inspector, have designed circuitry to correct this situation. This modification has been reviewed and approved by the State of Maine, and is being installed on other lifts at Sugarloaf that employ the same type of switch.  
There are six such lifts at Sugarloaf - Skidway, Sawduster, Snubber, Double Runner East, Double Runner West, and Bucksaw. Upon reaching the above conclusions regarding the drop dog switch this morning, and acting on an abundance of caution, Sugarloaf personnel made the decision to temporarily shut down the Skidway, Sawduster, Snubber, and Double Runner lifts until the modification was installed. The Bucksaw lift was not scheduled to operate today or tomorrow and will be modified before it is operated again on Friday.  
Sugarloaf and Boyne Resorts have been in touch with the lift's parts manufacturer to share their findings.


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## ceo (Mar 25, 2015)

http://sugarloaf.com/x1650.xml

It appears that the drop dog failed because of a design flaw: it's supposed to retract when it detects forward movement of the bullwheel, but it also retracts when it detects reverse movement. Which would be hilarious if it weren't terrifying.

Sugarloaf, to their immense credit, designed a fix for this problem as soon as they figured it out, got it approved and installed it on all of their lifts that used that type of drop dog switch that same day. That's all of the fixies except Skyline and, surprisingly, Timberline (which is identical to King Pine).

They also state that the bullwheel brake's taking 9 chair intervals to stop the rollback is by design. I'm... surprised by that.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2015)

So the (largely) defunct chairlift manufacturer is to blame? Interesting.


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## ceo (Mar 25, 2015)

Might not have been the manufacturer; the two Stadelis (Sawduster and Bucksaw) use the same switch. I wonder if the requirements for it vary enough by jurisdiction that it's a third-party component that's installed when the lift is put in.


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## Jully (Mar 25, 2015)

Looks like they might not be replacing the lift after all!


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## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2015)

ceo said:


> Might not have been the manufacturer; the two Stadelis (Sawduster and Bucksaw) use the same switch. I wonder if the requirements for it vary enough by jurisdiction that it's a third-party component that's installed when the lift is put in.



Good point. The King Pine and Timberline Quads are both Borvigs. There are (and were) other Borvigs there including the infamous Spillway Double.


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## Smellytele (Mar 26, 2015)

ceo said:


> Might not have been the manufacturer; the two Stadelis (Sawduster and Bucksaw) use the same switch. I wonder if the requirements for it vary enough by jurisdiction that it's a third-party component that's installed when the lift is put in.



The article did say "This switch was provided by the lift's original manufacturer, and is  still provided by the company that manufactures components for this type  of lift."


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## fbrissette (Mar 26, 2015)

ceo said:


> http://sugarloaf.com/x1650.xml
> 
> It appears that the drop dog failed because of a design flaw: it's supposed to retract when it detects forward movement of the bullwheel, but it also retracts when it detects reverse movement. Which would be hilarious if it weren't terrifying.



This is mind boggling and does not make sense.  What is the point of having redundancy if the redundant system was actually never tested ?


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## VTKilarney (Mar 26, 2015)

If these facts are correct, it appears that Sugarloaf did nothing wrong and that their training worked perfectly.  Hopefully the final investigation proves this to be the case.

I'd hate to be the switch manufacturer and/or the vibration tester.  Is it possible that the vibration test could have been performed correctly yet it would not show this fracture?


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## ironhippy (Mar 26, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'd hate to be the switch manufacturer and/or the vibration tester.  Is it possible that the vibration test could have been performed correctly yet it would not show this fracture?



also being completely ignorant of these things, I wonder could it be possible the vibration test caused or at least contributed to the fracture?


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## Hado226 (Mar 26, 2015)

What about other Borvigs (or others equipt with similar control systems) at other ski hills?  Hoping there are lots of reviews conducted soon.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 26, 2015)

ironhippy said:


> also being completely ignorant of these things, I wonder could it be possible the vibration test caused or at least contributed to the fracture?



I dont have any first hand knowledge of this test but I would think the test doesn't actually vibrate the gear box but has sensors that listen/feel for excessive vibration.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 26, 2015)

Here is some information on vibration testing:
http://www.bksv.com/doc/BO0233.pdf


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2015)

SAM's Press Release on the latest development:

http://www.saminfo.com/news/faulty-switch-contributed-sugarloaf-lift-rollback


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## machski (Mar 26, 2015)

King Pine and Timberline are not identical.  KP and when it was Whiffletree FGQ were identical.  When Whiffletree was removed and reinstalled as timberline in the 90's, it was completely overhauled with all new hardware and systems.  That is why it was not on the switch list.  My understanding is that Sunday River has made switch changes on 2 lifts as well from this, I would guess they would be Locke and Spruce as those are the only Borvigs left on the mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2015)

machski said:


> King Pine and Timberline are not identical.  KP and when it was Whiffletree FGQ were identical.  When Whiffletree was removed and reinstalled as timberline in the 90's, it was completely overhauled with all new hardware and systems.  That is why it was not on the switch list.  My understanding is that Sunday River has made switch changes on 2 lifts as well from this, I would guess they would be Locke and Spruce as those are the only Borvigs left on the mountain.



Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.


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## DaffyJeffy (Mar 26, 2015)

Sugarloaf Today has some interesting conversation on this incident.  Some of it relates to the incident I described when the liftie got hit in the head with a part.



http://www.sugarloaftoday.com/chat/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7080&sid=534f666544ba94b99135052d2f002736


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## deadheadskier (Mar 28, 2015)

http://www.pressherald.com/2015/03/28/faulty-chairlift-may-be-replaced/


Interesting.  Apparently CNLs sale of the mountain will hold up replacing the lift.

I wonder how many other capital projects for this off season at CNL owned resorts will now be placed on hold.


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## bigbog (Mar 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.pressherald.com/2015/03/28/faulty-chairlift-may-be-replaced/
> 
> 
> Interesting.  Apparently CNLs sale of the mountain will hold up replacing the lift.
> ...



Imho...Corporate America's pathetic minds have really turned insular(sp?) in the last 30-40 years.  Quarterly profits outweigh any interest in quality skiing for advanced-expert skiers...and the picky-une attitudes of upper middle America, whining about their inability to get more and more special perks with purchased passes, has corporate management penny-pinching over important stuff(ie lifts)....

*Think there are those that might be re-thinking their 20 Year Plan...  Wonder how many luncheons were set up to celebrate their new initiative at the start of the deep planning corporate project..lol.   
As most everywhere...those who initially questioned top brass will most likely be the first out the door......


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## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2015)

Here is a WCAX article about Bovig lifts that were inspected in Vermont after Sugarbush's accident: http://www.wcax.com/story/28634150/vt-inspects-ski-lifts-after-accident-in-maine


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## Edd (Mar 28, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.pressherald.com/2015/03/28/faulty-chairlift-may-be-replaced/
> 
> 
> Interesting.  Apparently CNLs sale of the mountain will hold up replacing the lift.
> ...



That'll make those weekend lift lines super sweet next season. This makes me think a buyer has been identified.


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## bigbob (Mar 28, 2015)

Maybe Boyne will buy the Mnts outright in the east at a good price.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2015)

bigbob said:


> Maybe Boyne will buy the Mnts outright in the east at a good price.



Boyne doesn't have the coin.....


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## wa-loaf (Mar 28, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Boyne doesn't have the coin.....



A poet and you didn't know it.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> A poet and you didn't know it.



:lol:


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## Whitey (Mar 29, 2015)

Picture from today.  Sunday 3/29.   Wheel down.   There were 1-2 guys working on it today but otherwise it's got that "waiting for parts" kind of look to it.


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## skiMEbike (Apr 2, 2015)

http://sugarloaf.com/media-room/press-releases/timberline-update

The latest on KPine lift, or should I say Timberline....It's nice to see they are being proactive with this & offering up Cat rides while the lift will be offline.   Coincidentally, over the weekend I noticed a lot of "eyes" (lift mechanics, patrol, etc) watching the timberline bullwheel.


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## Hado226 (Apr 2, 2015)

Lots of eyes watching all 170 Borvigs i would guess.


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## festus (Apr 5, 2015)

Closing t-line is 100% reactive.  We crashed lets make sure the other stuff is ok.  Nothing proactive there.  
Some technical info on the defective switch.  SL is not being 100% truthful on how it works.  It is called an underspeed switch.  It is a wheel that rides on the bullwheel, when the bull wheel slows down to a set speed (the switch is adjustable) a signal is sent to drop the roll back dogs.  Borvig says the switch should be set at half of design speed.  So what this means is the dogs drop before the lift is stopped.  And yes it will lift the dogs in reverse when the bullwheel hits the preset speed.  Now code says that roll back devices must activate with in 36 inches of reverse rotation.   The back stops on borvigs are about 30 inches apart.   You would have to have serious hyper drive type acceleration to reach even 40%speed with in 36 inches.  The switch is still available and recommended by the manufacturer because it works.  Now lets talk e-brake or bull wheel brake.   Code says the bull wheel brake must stop the lift in less than 3 feet.  This is tested during load tests.  450feet is a bit out of the acceptable range.

Just felt the need to put out some tech stuff.  I am angry as are a lot of people in the industry that SL is blaming Borvig.  That particular switch may have been broken but it is not a design fault.  

One last thing, Where is the state of Maine.  2 accidents in four years.  Why are they not inspecting this stuff.  The elevator inspector and boiler inspector that make up the team of tramway inspectors are in my mind not quite getting it done.


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## SIKSKIER (Apr 7, 2015)

festus said:


> Closing t-line is 100% reactive.  We crashed lets make sure the other stuff is ok.  Nothing proactive there.
> Some technical info on the defective switch.  SL is not being 100% truthful on how it works.  It is called an underspeed switch.  It is a wheel that rides on the bullwheel, when the bull wheel slows down to a set speed (the switch is adjustable) a signal is sent to drop the roll back dogs.  Borvig says the switch should be set at half of design speed.  So what this means is the dogs drop before the lift is stopped.  And yes it will lift the dogs in reverse when the bullwheel hits the preset speed.  Now code says that roll back devices must activate with in 36 inches of reverse rotation.   The back stops on borvigs are about 30 inches apart.   You would have to have serious hyper drive type acceleration to reach even 40%speed with in 36 inches.  The switch is still available and recommended by the manufacturer because it works.  Now lets talk e-brake or bull wheel brake.   Code says the bull wheel brake must stop the lift in less than 3 feet.  This is tested during load tests.  450feet is a bit out of the acceptable range.
> 
> Just felt the need to put out some tech stuff.  I am angry as are a lot of people in the industry that SL is blaming Borvig.  That particular switch may have been broken but it is not a design fault.
> ...



What?Proactive is pulling the T-line gearbox apart when it was scheduled for the end of the year.Proactive is finding the worn driveshaft and instead of shutting the T-line or KP lifts down for the remainder of the season and do the work then,getting the parts and turning those lifts this season.Proactive is running a cat shuttle to the top while this work is being done.And why is the state not inspecting this "stuff"?They were all inspected every year and the KP had a vibration test done the week before.The switch may be a different matter but not sure what your talking with reguard to you other 2 points.


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## festus (Apr 7, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> What?Proactive is pulling the T-line gearbox apart when it was scheduled for the end of the year.Proactive is finding the worn driveshaft and instead of shutting the T-line or KP lifts down for the remainder of the season and do the work then,getting the parts and turning those lifts this season.Proactive is running a cat shuttle to the top while this work is being done.And why is the state not inspecting this "stuff"?They were all inspected every year and the KP had a vibration test done the week before.The switch may be a different matter but not sure what your talking with reguard to you other 2 points.



We can play semantics.  They did close tline early, they did open the box before this summer that is proactive.  They did it however because they nearly killed over 100 people on the KP lift.  That is a reaction.  The snow cat is a reaction to the box in tline being bad.  And so you know the state inspectors did not have their names on the preseason inspection.  That inspection is done by the insurance company with outside contractors (who are qualified.)  But the state inspectors or any person from the elevator and tramway authority are not required to be there.  The issues with King Pine and the issues on Spillway where big issues that the state authorities where totally unaware of.  That is lack of oversight.
I am not trying to pick fights here, I was just trying to point out that SugarLoafs story does not add up and they are throwing the parts manufacturer under the bus to save face.  This has negative repercussions for the entire industry and should be done with careful consideration.


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## doublediamond (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm gonna guess you work for Partek.

Testing of the electronics indicated a part didn't function properly.  They looked into it and found out it was original, so a design flaw.  The state pretty much even said so.  VT Passenger Tramway Division inspected the three Borvigs in VT.  Guess what... one failed for the same reason (Suicide Six)!  How hard is that to understand?  Borvig effed up years ago.  End of story.

Now the cause of the whole shindig was the drive shaft snapped.  So they proactively inspected the other lift of the exact same model and year.  And found there was an issue with it as well.  The shut 'er down to fix it.  End of story.


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## Sotto (Apr 7, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> I'm gonna guess you work for Partek.
> 
> Testing of the electronics indicated a part didn't function properly.  They looked into it and found out it was original, so a design flaw.  The state pretty much even said so.  VT Passenger Tramway Division inspected the three Borvigs in VT.  Guess what... one failed for the same reason (Suicide Six)!  How hard is that to understand?  Borvig effed up years ago.  End of story.
> 
> Now the cause of the whole shindig was the drive shaft snapped.  So they proactively inspected the other lift of the exact same model and year.  And found there was an issue with it as well.  The shut 'er down to fix it.  End of story.



Get your facts right! As designed the underspeed switch works when maintained properly, key word being maintained!  The lift at Suicide Six didn't fail anything, it never had an underspeed switch installed(lift predates B77.1 recommendations). Borvig didn't eff anything up, once the full report comes out you will see. As of now we only have one side of the story and that's from SL.


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## Jully (Apr 7, 2015)

festus said:


> We can play semantics.  They did close tline early, they did open the box before this summer that is proactive.  They did it however because they nearly killed over 100 people on the KP lift.  That is a reaction.  The snow cat is a reaction to the box in tline being bad.
> I am not trying to pick fights here, I was just trying to point out that SugarLoafs story does not add up and they are throwing the parts manufacturer under the bus to save face.  This has negative repercussions for the entire industry and should be done with careful consideration.



Yes they are reacting to the King Pine incident, but it's not fair to blame them as being reactionary with Timberline shutting down. Inspecting another potential problem lift with just a few weeks left in the season is proactive in my book. 

A reactive response would have been to run Timberline, then when that lift fails follow the same procedure as they are following with King Pine. Acting in a reactionary way I've always taken to be not learning anything from your mistakes and essentially treat each mechanical malfunctions as isolated, and not put 2 and 2 together and realize timberline might have the exact same issue. They could have easily come up with a BS reason as to why Timberline is different from king pine, as was mentioned earlier in this thread actually, but instead they bit the bullet and pulled it apart. That gets some praise in my book.

Obviously this situation is horrible and yes we only have 1 side of the story, but Sugarloaf, in my opinion, is handling the situation post accident as best as they could. Yeah it sucks, and I've always assumed they are at fault more than the they are admitting, but they've saved a lot of face in my mind through their communication and post accident responses.


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## skiMEbike (Apr 9, 2015)

http://sugarloaf.com/media-room/press-r ... ine-update

And there you have it...Timberline is done for the year.   Contrary to a few of the posts in this thread....I personally feel Sugarloaf is being proactive in the wake of the King Pine incident.   Also, I appreciate the open communications on lift operations.


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## Vortex (Apr 9, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> http://sugarloaf.com/media-room/press-r ... ine-update
> 
> And there you have it...Timberline is done for the year.   Contrary to a few of the posts in this thread....I personally feel Sugarloaf is being proactive in the wake of the King Pine incident.   Also, I appreciate the open communications on lift operations.



I agree.


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## Nick (Apr 9, 2015)

I've got to dig through this entire thread to get the update. I haven't followed on this since it first happened. Really a bummer for sugarloaf. I always think things like this would never happen and then they do.


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## catskills (Apr 10, 2015)

SL - Two bad lift failures are due to bad luck, bad maintenance decissions, or both.   I am going with good chance bad maintenance decissions had something to do with these lift failures.   I personally will not be skiing SL.  Sorry SL.  As for the other ski areas you best not end up like SL.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2015)

I love Sugarloaf, but have to agree that two very bad lift accidents in a few years is NOT a good thing.  I can't really think of many other places (if any) that have this record.  Sugarbush has had a lot of lift issues in the last few years, but none like this.


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## wa-loaf (Apr 10, 2015)

Nick said:


> I've got to dig through this entire thread to get the update. I haven't followed on this since it first happened. Really a bummer for sugarloaf. I always think things like this would never happen and then they do.



Maybe we can negotiate a better price on next years summit?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> I love Sugarloaf, but have to agree that two very bad lift accidents in a few years is NOT a good thing.  I can't really think of many other places (if any) that have this record.  Sugarbush has had a lot of lift issues in the last few years, but none like this.



Whistler had a few really bad lift problems 2008-2009.  The Gondola collapse and some grip issues I believe on other chairs.


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## ScottySkis (Apr 10, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> Maybe we can negotiate a better price on next years summit?



Or move it .


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## Newpylong (Apr 10, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Whistler had a few really bad lift problems 2008-2009.  The Gondola collapse and some grip issues I believe on other chairs.



13 years apart

1995 Quicksilver YAN grip failure = a manufacturer design issue

2008 Excalibur gondola tower failure = a manufacturer design issue


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2015)

Harmony express had a grip failure in 2009 resulting in a chair falling from the line overnight.


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## Newpylong (Apr 11, 2015)

I didn't know that thanks. That one looked to be a bolt failure and there there a couple more similar failures at Whistler too, luckily all without injury.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2015)

Yeah.  Whistler has been lucky and dodged a few bullets and avoided injuries.  

I bring the issues Whistler had up because some are saying how cheap or incompetent Sugarloaf is to have these two accidents these past five years and that they will no longer ski there.  Well, the busiest ski resort in North America and I assume one of the richest has had problems too.  These accidents can happen anywhere.


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## Cannonball (Apr 11, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Harmony express had a grip failure in 2009 resulting in a chair falling from the line overnight.




Yikes!  Got to be one of the highest lifts I've ever ridden. How far did it fall?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 11, 2015)

Not sure.  A groomer found it in the middle of the night


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## skiMEbike (Apr 16, 2015)

Pulled this from Sugarloaf chat.....A response from Ethan over the chatter (or lack of chatter) on the future of King Pine...What I find encouraging with the response is they are not even considering leaving the area void of a lift for next season.   A lot of people are "demanding" answers on the future of KP, however everyone needs to sit tight while options are considered.   IMO this is a complex scenario with some major factors impacting the solution:  pending sale of CNL,  CNL sale in relation to the potential capital outlay, new GM at Loaf less than 3 weeks ago, and not to mention the ongoing fact finding from the accident.  Again I appreciate how the Loaf has been handling this to date.


From Ethan:
"There is every intention to have an operating lift in the King Pine area next season. Whether that is a completely new lift or a rebuild of the existing lift is what is undetermined. Leaving that area without an operating lift next year has never been discussed as an option. I assure you that as soon as we have that information to share, you guys will be among the very first to know."


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## doublediamond (Apr 16, 2015)

IMHO, the value of the resort with a new lift installed will be far more than the current value + the cost of a new lift.  CNL should just pony up and buy a new detachable quad.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm not sure I agree with that.   Comparing the sales of a ski areas is never apples to apples, but take Wildcat as an example.  Peaks bought it for I believe $5M.  Their summit HSQ would cost at least $7-8M to replace today.  Wildcat would not sell for $12M with a new lift.

Similarly I doubt CNL would recoup the like $5M cost of a new King Pine lift in the sale price.


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## doublediamond (Apr 16, 2015)

Their HSQ was 13 years old when Peaks purchased.  The cost of the Wildcat Express was more on the order of $2.5-3M, they had a limited snowmaking system, and it's my understanding that Bobcat and Snowcat aren't in the best of shapes.  Just the operating lease and assets were purchased.  Those assets have significantly depreciated over the years. There's no real estate associated with Wildcat (for the ski area).

My thoughts on SL:  there is a significant bad-will hit on the value of the resort.  Simply getting rid of the current King Pine removes a significant amount of that.  Whether or not you agree or if it's true, in the eyes of John Q. Public, no matter how much you refurbish King Pine, it is a dangerous lift.  It's a great PR move to put in a new HSQ or FGQ, you'd get good return on that investment.

Plus, even if you don't get that full investment back on the sale price, the installation will lubricate the sale.  No one will want to touch SL with a 39.5-foot pole as SL is today.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm aware of how old the Wildcat lift is, that's why I brought up a new replacement.

If that doesn't work for you because there's no real estate involved, Ragged would be the most recent lift upgrade example with real estate.  They spent $5M on Spear.  I don't think that increases the value by $5M.

It does need to be replaced no doubt, but if I'm CNL, I'm leaving that expense to the buyer.


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## ironhippy (Apr 16, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> It does need to be replaced no doubt, but if I'm CNL, I'm leaving that expense to the buyer.



which comes full circle, because buyers don't want to buy knowing they have to spend 5 million to replace a lift...


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## deadheadskier (Apr 16, 2015)

The way I look at it, when you go to sell your house, you don't do a 25k kitchen renovation.  You spend a few hundred on paint to clean things up.

Why?  Because it's a big gamble if you get the money back.

With a five million dollar lift you have to go through the financing process which is a pain in the ass and its a huge gamble.

Personally I don't think that many folks would avoid the lift if it's fixed.  I know I'd ride it.  Whistler didn't replace the lifts they had issues with


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## doublediamond (Apr 17, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The way I look at it, when you go to sell your house, you don't do a 25k kitchen renovation.  You spend a few hundred on paint to clean things up.
> 
> Why?  Because it's a big gamble if you get the money back.
> 
> ...




Oh but many do.  A $25k kitchen investment is worth something like an additional $50-75k to the value of the house.  A lot of kitchens are redone just before putting a house on the market.  It's not a gamble, but a quick money maker.


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## AdironRider (Apr 17, 2015)

Ok now you are just spewing pure bullshit. No remodel has been proven to bring back more than invested. Average is actually more like 75% for a kitchen remodel. 

http://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2014/


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## fbrissette (Apr 17, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> Ok now you are just spewing pure bullshit. No remodel has been proven to bring back more than invested. Average is actually more like 75% for a kitchen remodel.
> 
> http://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2014/



Absolutely correct.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 17, 2015)

Thank you gentlemen.  

The only place you see a $50-75K return on a $25K kitchen renovation just prior to sale is HGTV.  (fantasy world) I don't know a single person who has ever done much more than paint and maybe flooring prior to selling their house.  You do the bare minimum to make it attractive against the comps in the neighborhood. 

Much like a car loses a ton of value the second it's driven off the lot, I bet a ski lift loses a bunch of value the day it's fully installed.


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## tumbler (Apr 18, 2015)

But a remodel will save you days on market and potentially having to carry two mortgages, taxes, etc or it will keep you from not getting the house you want because you haven't sold yours yet. Upgrade the kitchens and baths, put in middle of the road with decent workmanship. Buyers want upgrades and they are all "savvy" from HGTV.


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## AdironRider (Apr 18, 2015)

tumbler said:


> But a remodel will save you days on market and potentially having to carry two mortgages, taxes, etc or it will keep you from not getting the house you want because you haven't sold yours yet. Upgrade the kitchens and baths, put in middle of the road with decent workmanship. Buyers want upgrades and they are all "savvy" from HGTV.



The average kitchen remodel costs 50-60k. You think its worth losing 12.5-15 grand just to sell the house a few days earlier? 

That is a foolish decision no matter how you slice it.


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## danimals (Apr 18, 2015)

50-60k for a kitchen? Seriously? I've rarely seen one over 15k.


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## AdironRider (Apr 18, 2015)

danimals said:


> 50-60k for a kitchen? Seriously? I've rarely seen one over 15k.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Lets just ignore the facts I linked to which actually give you a solid number, which is $54909 average job cost with an added retail value of just $40732. A whopping 74.2% return of the original investment. 

Seriously, read a bit first before acting a fool. Those numbers above are nationwide averages, the numbers get worse for just New England. Data comes directly from the National Board of Realtors.


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 18, 2015)

Wow.  What happened to this thread?!



And....



danimals said:


> 50-60k for a kitchen? Seriously? I've rarely seen one over 15k.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> Wow.  What happened to this thread?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Not Sure (Apr 18, 2015)

danimals said:


> 50-60k for a kitchen? Seriously? I've rarely seen one over 15k.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Working on a house right now , the guy is spending literally $100K ( not a remodel ) I'm anxious to see what it looks like,I've been in larger kithcens before.

As for lifts ,I'm not a tax expert but I would guess there is a substantial depreciation on a lift ....10-15yr lifespan? So as far as resale goes that would be in the mix.


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## wa-loaf (Jul 22, 2015)

The Loaf has a new Lift Safety page: http://www.sugarloaf.com/liftsafety

Updates on Kingpine and other similar lifts at the mtn.


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## skiNEwhere (Jul 23, 2015)

Didn't see this posted anywhere. Looks like the bottom terminal will be replaced 

http://sugarloaf.com/media-room/press-releases/capital-improvements-x1761


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## wa-loaf (Jul 23, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Didn't see this posted anywhere. Looks like the bottom terminal will be replaced
> 
> http://sugarloaf.com/media-room/press-releases/capital-improvements-x1761



There are pictures of the removal on the lift safety page.


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## Cat in January (Jul 25, 2015)

Report on lift failure
http://www.pressherald.com/2015/07/...ailures-led-to-chairlift-mishap-at-sugarloaf/


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## SnowDogWax (Aug 12, 2015)

Bought a Max Pass this season and Sugarloaf is one resort listed.


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## skiMEbike (Nov 25, 2015)

I guess we have some "closure" now...

http://www.pressherald.com/2015/11/25/final-report-on-sugarloaf-ski-lift-failure-makes-safety-recommendations/document/


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## thetrailboss (Nov 27, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> I guess we have some "closure" now...
> 
> http://www.pressherald.com/2015/11/25/final-report-on-sugarloaf-ski-lift-failure-makes-safety-recommendations/document/



Read the report. Here are my thoughts: 

1. More than once they mention that Sugarloaf altered evidence before investigators got there. They admit that there was probably no intent, but it's still not good. 

2. They also were critical of maintenance and inspection.

3. Sounds like a design defect to have the solenoids hold the drop dogs up based only on the speed, and not the direction, of the bull wheel. Based on the fact that one of the teeth was apparently shaved or broken it sounds like they might have briefly dropped.

4. It also sounded like the e-brake did not initially work. 

All in all not good. 


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## thetrailboss (Jan 5, 2016)

Looks like the lift is now open....according to UN at least....take that for what it is worth.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/01/sugarloaf-reopens-lift-that-rolled-back-last-year-injuring-7

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sugarloafmaine/24094571771/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sugarloafmaine/24094572121/in/photostream/


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## dlague (Jan 5, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like the lift is now open....according to UN at least....take that for what it is worth.
> 
> http://unofficialnetworks.com/2016/01/sugarloaf-reopens-lift-that-rolled-back-last-year-injuring-7
> 
> ...



Ya after $800,000 of repair


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## ceo (Jan 6, 2016)

The lift still loads from the side, like Timberline, instead of from behind like basically all other modern chairlifts. Why is that?


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## Puck it (Jan 6, 2016)

ceo said:


> The lift still loads from the side, like Timberline, instead of from behind like basically all other modern chairlifts. Why is that?


Huh?  You load facing uphill.  It is a fixed grip.


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## Newpylong (Jan 6, 2016)

ceo said:


> The lift still loads from the side, like Timberline, instead of from behind like basically all other modern chairlifts. Why is that?



Assume you mean enter loading area not actual loading as it's a fixed grip?

The reason for the entrance to King Ping being on the side is for corral space.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2016)

ceo said:


> The lift still loads from the side, like Timberline, instead of from behind like basically all other modern chairlifts. Why is that?



Yeah, that is a bit odd.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 6, 2016)

Here is a photo of the loading area.


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## tummystix (Jan 6, 2016)

I think there's still a lot of chairs that load from the side, but most are older ones. You'd think with the update they would have changed it.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 6, 2016)




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## skiMEbike (Jan 7, 2016)

I haven't given the new & improved King a test ride yet however, two observations that seem odd to me:   First, why would you put the lift shack on the opposite side of the loading area...Isn't it safer/convenient to have it on the same side where you load?   Second, It appears from the picture (but not sure) that they used those same lift corral gates from the original lift AND they are STILL bend.   They couldn't straighten it out !!


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 7, 2016)

I dont get the side load either.Sure makes getting 4 people turning together in the load area more difficult.


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## Puck it (Jan 7, 2016)

The shack was on that side before the accident.  Why move it.  And the load angle is very shallow.  It's not even near 45 degrees.  Suck it up and ski will ya!!!!!


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## delco714 (Jan 10, 2016)

Hi all.just joined here. Been living in Maine and snowboarding at the loaf for three years. We were on the new king pine Saturday.. It's no faster than the old lift..why? Had a decent say otherwise Saturday. Nice to meet you all.


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## doublediamond (Jan 10, 2016)

Could be for loading efficiency.  The faster the lift, closer the chairs time-wise, more mis-loads.  A change could be insignificant, say 425 fpm to 450 fpm.  Anyone have non-stop ride times?


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## delco714 (Jan 10, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Could be for loading efficiency.  The faster the lift, closer the chairs time-wise, more mis-loads.  A change could be insignificant, say 425 fpm to 450 fpm.  Anyone have non-stop ride times?


I should have timed it.. Does forever count? Almost like skyline... Whew. Shouldn't king pine be able to move as far as skyline does at full speed? There was copious free time for loading on the pine. They also had a big power outage for over half the day..could of used the extra uhc from speed! Hoping next time the wife and I are up to the cabin to snowboard 1/30 things are tip top. Headed to big sky mo this Friday for a week for a "medical conference"!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2016)

delco714 said:


> I should have timed it.. Does forever count? Almost like skyline... Whew. Shouldn't king pine be able to move as far as skyline does at full speed? !



Only if they installed a conveyor loading system.  That allows for faster line speed by regulation.

I wouldn't think they'd be able to do unless they changed the loading configuration to straight on instead of from the side.  

Seems like a missed opportunity to not go conveyor loading with King Pine upgrade; especially with how successful Skyline has been.


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## delco714 (Jan 11, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Only if they installed a conveyor loading system.  That allows for faster line speed by regulation.
> 
> I wouldn't think they'd be able to do unless they changed the loading configuration to straight on instead of from the side.
> 
> Seems like a missed opportunity to not go conveyor loading with King Pine upgrade; especially with how successful Skyline has been.


Precisely! Only experienced folks [should] go on pine..so very curious.. Even with these "new" or half new lifts..it's all feeling so antiquated. Sugarloaf should really have a doppelmayr orange bubble heated lift-like set up or a gondola.. I know I'm asking a lot but hey..sugarloaf talks a lot of fluff..should back it up


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## Edd (Jan 11, 2016)

delco714 said:


> Sugarloaf should really have a doppelmayr orange bubble heated lift-like set up or a gondola.. I know I'm asking a lot but hey..sugarloaf talks a lot of fluff..should back it up



Boyne hasn't even put one of those in at Loon (yet) and they could really stand to replace the gondy with one.


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## steamboat1 (Jan 11, 2016)

Sugarloaf needs a t2b lift. I'd take a 3 passenger gondi at this point..


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## thetrailboss (Jan 11, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Only if they installed a conveyor loading system.  That allows for faster line speed by regulation.
> 
> I wouldn't think they'd be able to do unless they changed the loading configuration to straight on instead of from the side.
> 
> Seems like a missed opportunity to not go conveyor loading with King Pine upgrade; especially with how successful Skyline has been.



+ 1


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Only if they installed a conveyor loading system.  That allows for faster line speed by regulation.
> 
> I wouldn't think they'd be able to do unless they changed the loading configuration to straight on instead of from the side.
> 
> Seems like a missed opportunity to not go conveyor loading with King Pine upgrade; especially with how successful Skyline has been.



Seems really odd that they went to all that effort, and not put in the conveyor like Skyline. Cheapest way out I suppose.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2016)

Now would it be Boyne or CNL responsible? If it's CNL it makes more sense why they took the cheap way out.  I seem to recall with the whole Sugarloaf 2020 marketing piece that King Pine was supposed to be replaced with a HSQ.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

A short article about the reopening from the Portland Press Herald:  http://www.pressherald.com/2016/01/05/sugarloafs-king-pine-lift-back-in-business/


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## machski (Jan 12, 2016)

My 2 cents says they installed what they did on KP because it was what insurance would cover.  Like to like, no additions like a loading carpet.  There was not much investment at any other Boyne operated resort period this year.


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## skiMEbike (Jan 12, 2016)

I am "ok" with not having the carpet loader....The amount of time where significant lines build up over at KP are pretty rare,  typically it is minimal waiting on that chair except for maybe just a handful of days (& even then it is NEVER as bad as it can be at SQ or Skyline).   Furthermore how much more uphill capacity would you ultimately get with a carpet?   It's just another thing which could break and needs to be maintained....I'd rather "save" the money & use it for something else.


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## Edd (Jan 12, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> I use to hate and totally avoid the Spruce Triple at the river, until they put the carpet loader in. Now I'll use that lift as freely as any other lift.



Good lift for a safety meeting. Or so I've heard.....


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## steamboat1 (Jan 12, 2016)

I've said it before & I'll say it again "I don't like carpet loading lifts". Rode the Meadows at Stowe last week again, very uncomfortable feeling loading, not to mention the loading gate wasn't working as it should. Every other chair went up empty. Also as I've said before the chair didn't seem any faster than a regular fixed grip quad.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2016)

Takes some getting used to for sure.  Maybe Stowe's doesn't move faster, but the Skyline Quad is the fastest FG Quad I've ever ridden.  Not HSQ fast, but a significant improvement over a standard FG.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Takes some getting used to for sure.  Maybe Stowe's doesn't move faster, but the Skyline Quad is the fastest FG Quad I've ever ridden.  Not HSQ fast, but a significant improvement over a standard FG.



The Supreme Triple at Alta works great but it does take getting used to. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Jully (Jan 12, 2016)

Definitely a strange feeling, but agreed about Skyline at SL. Shawnee put in their conveyor and timed it to I think nearly 3 minutes off the ride time.


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## cdskier (Jan 12, 2016)

I rode Sugarbush's new Valley House Quad this weekend with the carpet loading. I was expecting it to be weird and take some getting used to, but it was actually pretty straight-forward and not as strange as I expected. Overall I thought it was a positive experience and I like that new lift. Speed seems a bit faster than a standard fixed grip chair. Hard to tell exactly how much faster without being able to do a direct comparison.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 12, 2016)

Jully said:


> Definitely a strange feeling, but agreed about Skyline at SL. Shawnee put in their conveyor and timed it to I think nearly 3 minutes off the ride time.



I'm honestly surprised that more resorts don't use this option to speed up existing lifts instead of installing new ones.  Two obvious candidates in my mind are Jay and Bolton Valley.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2016)

Attitash Summit Triple!!!!


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## Edd (Jan 13, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Attitash Summit Triple!!!!



Good friggin God, yes.


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## mbedle (Jan 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I've said it before & I'll say it again "I don't like carpet loading lifts". Rode the Meadows at Stowe last week again, very uncomfortable feeling loading, not to mention the loading gate wasn't working as it should. Every other chair went up empty. Also as I've said before the chair didn't seem any faster than a regular fixed grip quad.



I think the Meadow's carpet wasn't syncing right with the lift. I road it last Thursday and almost ended up off the carpet before getting on the lift. I always find them a little unsettling, but that is most likely because I don't use them very often.


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## doublediamond (Jan 13, 2016)

mbedle said:


> I think the Meadow's carpet wasn't syncing right with the lift. I road it last Thursday and almost ended up off the carpet before getting on the lift. I always find them a little unsettling, but that is most likely because I don't use them very often.



In my experience, when the lift is on slow speed, you'll go to the very end of the carpet before the chair arrives.  My heart would skipp a few beats before I realized it was normal.


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## delco714 (Jan 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I've said it before & I'll say it again "I don't like carpet loading lifts". Rode the Meadows at Stowe last week again, very uncomfortable feeling loading, not to mention the loading gate wasn't working as it should. Every other chair went up empty. Also as I've said before the chair didn't seem any faster than a regular fixed grip quad.


I used the sister lift at Vail but it's a SIXER! Believe that!! It worked very well at Vail even with two more folks getting on. It does take a few goes to get comfortable. Some people do not fair super well

I'll go further to say, speed is important, especially with longer and longer lift lines. Having a relatively short lift take 10 minutes IN MAINE WINTER is brutal. Additionally I don't get to go it all that often even with my season pass. Would be nice to get more runs in in less time. My wife has a bad back and she can't do all day events much anymore.


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## Edd (Jan 13, 2016)

delco714 said:


> I used the sister lift at Vail but it's a SIXER! Believe that!! It worked very well at Vail even with two more folks getting on. It does take a few goes to get comfortable. Some people do not fair super well.



I think I rode that earlier this week. The conveyor transports you to a second snowy surface, and then you wait, still, for a couple of seconds before the lift grabs you. That was a first for me. 

I generally like the conveyors fine. Shorter rides are usually welcome.


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## delco714 (Jan 13, 2016)

Edd said:


> I think I rode that earlier this week. The conveyor transports you to a second snowy surface, and then you wait, still, for a couple of seconds before the lift grabs you. That was a first for me.
> 
> I generally like the conveyors fine. Shorter rides are usually welcome.


Yes indeed! Pretty quirky isn't it?


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## machski (Jan 13, 2016)

Try that by with a 90 degree load in a hardened garage building.  A bit weird to say the least.


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## SnowDogWax (Jan 15, 2016)

Got to Sugarloaf late Wednesday been  a little cold. Hoping for some snow overnight


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## delco714 (Feb 3, 2016)

Sugarloaf dropped from 100 trails to 44 yesterday. Super! That and the fake snow melting the outside film of my anon m2 blue lagoon lens..


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## Jully (Feb 3, 2016)

delco714 said:


> Sugarloaf dropped from 100 trails to 44 yesterday. Super! That and the fake snow melting the outside film of my anon m2 blue lagoon lens..



Looks like a lot of that was safety related, not snowmelt or anything. After tonight they should hopefully be back up there again.


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## delco714 (Feb 3, 2016)

Haven't been to the loaf since first weekend January.. Wonder what a mess it is. A friend said she didn't want to bother to go back yet bc it was awful


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## Nick (Feb 4, 2016)

It was excellent last weekend - surprisingly so - but this week was rough again sounds like


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## delco714 (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm so done with this. Surprise snow storm hits my house, but misses sugarloaf and the cabin. I'm out!


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## Jully (Feb 6, 2016)

That's just screwed up man.


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## delco714 (Mar 5, 2016)

Sugarloaf up to $709 for silver pass for next season? Got to be fucking kidding me! That's almost $200 increase in 2 years. Over 25% bump!


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## skiMEbike (Mar 7, 2016)

delco714 said:


> Sugarloaf up to $709 for silver pass for next season? Got to be fucking kidding me! That's almost $200 increase in 2 years. Over 25% bump!



I am not sure where you are getting your facts...however the early season price on the Silver pass the previous two years has not gone up....2014/15 & 2015/16 prices were $685.    I calculate only $24 increase in 3 years.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

Back to lifts: I saw on FB that Whiffletree Lift is down...for at least 1-2 weeks because of a worn gear box that needs to be replaced.  

http://www.sugarloaf.com/liftsafety


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> It is good to see the Loaf being proactive in providing information about their lifts and maintenance programs.
> 
> The river hasn't been as outspoken, but with the recent West Virginia accident, I have noticed multiple inspections of some of the towers, mechanics climbing up those welded ladder rungs and checking them over.



Sugarloaf did state on that site that they had inspected their towers.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 7, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Back to lifts: I saw on FB that Whiffletree Lift is down...for at least 1-2 weeks because of a worn gear box that needs to be replaced.
> 
> http://www.sugarloaf.com/liftsafety




That was just rebuilt. It has 2 months on it.


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## delco714 (Mar 7, 2016)

skiMEbike said:


> I am not sure where you are getting your facts...however the early season price on the Silver pass the previous two years has not gone up....2014/15 & 2015/16 prices were $685.    I calculate only $24 increase in 3 years.


I'll have to look at my credit card or something.. I do not mentally agree with that. I remember price hikes the last two years..hmm


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## thetrailboss (Mar 7, 2016)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That was just rebuilt. It has 2 months on it.



Really? Wow, that really sucks. 


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## Jully (Mar 7, 2016)

Was going to bring a lower intermediate friend to the Loaf this weekend... but with Bucksaw removed and Whiffletree down... very little easily lapped lower intermediate terrain so I'll be going to SR instead. Pretty frustrated actually.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2016)

A new Bucksaw lift should be a top priority for them.  Great low intermediate terrain and access to Bullwinkles


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> A new Bucksaw lift should be a top priority for them.  Great low intermediate terrain and access to Bullwinkles



Yeah, that was a Chris Nyberg move there, tear it out without a replacement planned right away.


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## Edd (Mar 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> A new Bucksaw lift should be a top priority for them.  Great low intermediate terrain and access to Bullwinkles



I've always felt that part of the mountain was a wasted asset.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2016)

Lookers right of the Superquad.  Serviced the blue and green terrain to the west of tote road quite well when it ran on busy days.

I think the mountain was short sighted in throwing in all those big condos right there.  Think they're called the Timbers.  They make accessing that terrain and (former) lift a bit tricky and inconvenient.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 8, 2016)

Pretty sure its where the Windrow trail is shown.


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## skiMEbike (Mar 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> A new Bucksaw lift should be a top priority for them.  Great low intermediate terrain and access to Bullwinkles



Agree...It's really felt when another lift goes down (like this past weekend with WTree out of commission).   "If I were GM at SL with access to some capital",  my plan would be to replace bucksaw with some kind of 2-stage gondola to the summit with a mid-station at bullwinkles.   You get more opportunities to exploit BW for other non-skiing events which also could justify making some improvements to the the building.   You get your bucksaw replacement.  You get your top-to-bottom signature lift....ALL WITH 1 LIFT !!

Furthermore, you have more "incentive" (with a base to summit lift) to invest in the summit building to turn it into something that could generate some revenue.   

A key to "my plan" which I think would be crucial to making it work (which I haven't quite figured out) is....Somehow moving the base of a new "bucksaw replacement" lift closer to the base lodge (or moving the base lodge closer to the SQ/bucksaw area).


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## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2016)

Agreed.  Whiffletree offers good access from the lodge, but everything on Superquad side is a pain to get to.  Maybe the solution is whenever they replace double runner they bring the base of the lift down and realign closer to the lodge


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## ceo (Mar 8, 2016)

I've never liked the idea of a 2-stage gondola with a turn at Bullwinkles; for one thing, that'll be a long ride to the summit and it doesn't fit well with the trail layout (unless you want to start it where Bucksaw started, which will make SL's terrible base layout even terribler). 

Bullwinkle's to the top is tricky anyway; a direct line cuts across Narrow Gauge Extension and nearly crosses the top of Skyline.

I've been experimenting with Google Maps and I don't see an easy way to realign a DR replacement to start lower. Unless you move it over and run it up Landing and Lower Winter's Way, kind of next to Skidway.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm not sure what the answer is to their base area layout.  The Base Lodge is inconvenient to basically everything except WT.  Between the way the village is laid out and surrounding condos, there's not much you can do.


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## Jully (Mar 8, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure what the answer is to their base area layout.  The Base Lodge is inconvenient to basically everything except WT.  Between the way the village is laid out and surrounding condos, there's not much you can do.



There's some room down by the Superquad though. If you eliminated some of the drop off parking, you could maybe build a second lodge? A realigned Bucksaw lift over closer to the superquad could create a nice little hub. 

Really expensive project though... I don't think SL loses a lot of skier/rider traffic because of the base layout.


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## machski (Mar 9, 2016)

I know this, if they do a signature type lift to Bullies, forget a Summit one too.  They'd have trouble justifying o e signature lift.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2016)

Not to throw cold water on this thread, but they are having a hard enough time properly maintaining their existing lift infrastructure.  I know that their 2020 plan calls for a new signature lift, but I don't think it is coming anytime soon.


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## delco714 (Mar 9, 2016)

My decision will be either to move west or use the money to go boarding west for 2 weeks a year


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## delco714 (Apr 1, 2016)

Any one headed to sugarloaf tomorrow?? Last day for us for the season


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