# Article on "mega pass" being bad for the sport



## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2019)

https://www.outsideonline.com/2389964/ski-pass-epic-ikon


Kinda interesting to read about the employee housing situation at Keystone as I once lived in their employee housing.  The accommodations were a bit "snug" as they were.  

I'm not sure the mega pass has much to do with seasonal rentals switching to VRBO, but it does stink that there are so few seasonal properties left.  In the 90s I rented a 4 bedroom house in Stowe with some ski bum buddies. $6k for six months.  Good luck finding anything close to that today even adjusted for inflation. 


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2019)

There are some interesting and valid arguments in the article, but implying that people are moving their rentals to VRBO due to mega passes is not one of them.



> “All the affordable long-term rentals we had before this year are now off the market and seem to be on VRBO,” said a longtime local and resort employee, who requested anonymity for fear of losing their job.



Newsflash to this anonymous person - if something is listed on VRBO, then it is still "on the market". People are moving to options like VRBO because they charge much lower commissions than traditional local real estate agencies. With VRBO, you could list your property for less than with a realtor and still make more money.


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## machski (Mar 14, 2019)

cdskier said:


> There are some interesting and valid arguments in the article, but implying that people are moving their rentals to VRBO due to mega passes is not one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Newsflash to this anonymous person - if something is listed on VRBO, then it is still "on the market". People are moving to options like VRBO because they charge much lower commissions than traditional local real estate agencies. With VRBO, you could list your property for less than with a realtor and still make more money.


The key in your reply was "could" and that may hold true in the East to some extent. The problem in Big Sky is as folks move former seasonal rentals to VRBO etc, they are not lowering prices in Big Sky but increasing.  Everything is there, Big Sky specifically has been found by the masses now.  Several years ago, you could wait and book pretty much anything you wanted last minute outside of holiday periods.  Now, good luck even booking in September.  Big Sky is huge but it's lodging options are miniscule by comparison to it's terrain.  Things are changing, a new Residence Inn opens in the village town center next month and other facilities are under build that should ease the crunch a bit.  But I get the frustrations of resort employees that have seen their options dwindle likely over the past two seasons when Big Sky's draw really increased due to two awesome snow years there.

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## Do Work (Mar 14, 2019)

Well that depends on what you refer to as "skiing".

The current Vail/Alterra business model may work great for them personally in the short term, but industry-wide it's cannibalizing the future of the sport in favor of short term profit goals.  

Basically, by offering very low priced season passes and astronomical day pass rates they're effectively pushing out the day pass buyer and simultaneously consolidating all of the season pass buyers- that means it's solely up to smaller areas (which they're currently whittling away at the feasibility of) to attract all the new skiers and keep the sport growing with reasonable day pass rates, smaller marketing budgets and smaller infrastructures- and then pass them off to Vail once they're a full-blown skier buying a season pass.  This concern doesn't even begin to touch the housing concerns of employees and people that rented there before the takeovers- who are often displaced without alternative.  

So basically, this is a short term money grab by these conglomerates that essentially consolidates and homogenizes product and fixes pricing in a way that is as disgustingly selfish and short sighted as it is wildly profitable.  If this trend continues, we will see the demise of the small ski area, and the death of the sport as we know it.  But hey, Vail is making a killing being the Walmart of skiing and you get to go to Colorado on your pass so who cares right??  Let's just throw another ski area on the fire and put our feet up!  

The problem is that people don't care, they just want it all and they want it for free.  Walmart is a perfect example of the consolidation we're seeing across the industry, and it's scary as an operator of a niche ski area.  Thankfully we're differentiated enough to stand on our own and we're growing, but that is not the norm.  Lots of small areas are suffering heavily, and without them this is just a rich man's sport.


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## cdskier (Mar 14, 2019)

machski said:


> The key in your reply was "could" and that may hold true in the East to some extent. The problem in Big Sky is as folks move former seasonal rentals to VRBO etc, they are not lowering prices in Big Sky but increasing.



Yea, I definitely realize just because someone can theoretically charge a lower rate via VRBO and still pocket more money doesn't mean that's what they would always do. I was more citing that as an example of a reason why people are moving to options like that. Charging less makes more sense in a market with an oversupply. Price yourself lower than the realtor options and you'll have a competitive advantage (while still making more money). In a market with higher demand than supply, no surprise that people are charging more even if they move to something like VRBO with lower commissions. If they charge more and find people willing to pay it, can't say I blame them.


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## Domeskier (Mar 14, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Walmart is a perfect example of the consolidation we're seeing across the industry, and it's scary as an operator of a niche ski area.



I'm pretty sure Walmart's business model is the exact opposite of Vail's.  I guess they both have the effect of putting smaller, independent competitors out of business, but I don't think there's any danger of Walmart putting cheap, poorly-made consumer goods out of reach of the general public any time soon.  Lot's of people dislike Walmart, sure, but forcing an analogy between Walmart and Vail obscures the main problems with Vail's business model that you and others are highlighting.


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## Do Work (Mar 14, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> I'm pretty sure Walmart's business model is the exact opposite of Vail's.  I guess they both have the effect of putting smaller, independent competitors out of business, but I don't think there's any danger of Walmart putting cheap, poorly-made consumer goods out of reach of the general public any time soon.  Lot's of people dislike Walmart, sure, but forcing an analogy between Walmart and Vail obscures the main problems with Vail's business model that you and others are highlighting.




Look, I don’t have time to come up with a perfect analogy for you.  Let’s discuss the issues at hand and not waste our time on peripheral trivialities.


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## Domeskier (Mar 14, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Look, I don’t have time to come up with a perfect analogy for you.  Let’s discuss the issues at hand and not waste our time on peripheral trivialities.



I'm not asking for a perfect analogy; just one that bears even the slightest resemblance to the facts.  People dislike tobacco companies too.  Maybe Vail is the Phillip Morris of ski companies.  Bad analogies just cheapen your point for rhetorical effect.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 14, 2019)

Do Work said:


> Basically, by offering very low priced season passes and astronomical day pass rates they're effectively pushing out the day pass buyer and simultaneously consolidating all of the season pass buyers- that means* it's solely up to smaller areas* (which they're currently whittling away at the feasibility of)* to attract all the new skiers and keep the sport growing with reasonable day pass rates*, smaller marketing budgets and smaller infrastructures- and then pass them off to Vail once they're a full-blown skier buying a season pass.  This concern doesn't even begin to touch the housing concerns of employees and people that rented there before the takeovers- who are often displaced without alternative.



 Perhaps only_"reasonable"_ based on the new-normal, but even at the smaller areas these mega pass battles are already leading to lift ticket price inflation, and for obvious reason. 

 If everyone takes their lift ticket price from $85 to $150, there's no reason you need to sit idle & keep your lift ticket price at $60, you may simply raise it to $65, $75, $85 now.  This is happening already, and is wholly supported by, well, Economics 101.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 14, 2019)

Do Work said:


> *The current Vail/Alterra business model may work great for them personally in the short term, but industry-wide it's cannibalizing the future of the sport* in favor of short term profit goals.



Your point about how these Mega Pass battles will be harmful to the future of the ski industry via lower skier numbers, I agree with 100%. 

My only caveat is that given my prediction that EPIC & IKON will ultimately fail, I do not believe this will be the future, but if I am wrong and EPIC & Ikon do "succeed" (ironic usage), then yes, this will hurt the ski industry, but we likely wont notice it in tangible numbers of decline for at least a decade.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 14, 2019)

The VRBO discussion is in regards to long term rentals coming off the market.  I don't think that has anything to do with epic/ikon, but the ease and insurance security available through using VRBO.   You can rent out a place for the week at a far higher rate than you can for a season.  

Yes having lower fees than working with a local realtor contributes, but in the old days before VRBO, you had much more concern with damage to your property.  So, you either gambled on short term rentals or find one responsible tenant for the season who wasn't going to destroy your property.  With VRBO, you have piece mind that if you do get unlucky with a bad weekly rental, that organization will take care of everything for you much faster, cheaper and better than realtors ever could ever do in the past.  

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## BenedictGomez (Mar 14, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> *The VRBO discussion is in regards to long term rentals coming off the market.  I don't think that has anything to do with epic/ikon*, but the ease and insurance security available through using VRBO.



It doesn't; that's a bizarre conclusion to draw, and the author doesnt even provide his logic/reasoning behind it.


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## Do Work (Mar 14, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Your point about how these Mega Pass battles will be harmful to the future of the ski industry via lower skier numbers, I agree with 100%.
> 
> My only caveat is that given my prediction that EPIC & IKON will ultimately fail, I do not believe this will be the future, but if I am wrong and EPIC & Ikon do "succeed" (ironic usage), then yes, this will hurt the ski industry, but we likely wont notice it in tangible numbers of decline for at least a decade.





Well thankfully for them it doesn't matter if they take over or fail completely a decade down the road.  They're making money hand over fist right now and that's all that matters.  Much like Wall Street's current outlook, they couldn't care less about anybody but themselves and as long as #1 is making money all the other details are water under the bridge.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 14, 2019)

Do work, are you Geoff from magic?

My girlfriend and I ate lunch at the next table while you were being interviewed on sunday.

We were so glad to see the black line tavern packed with people eating and drinking

We are ikon pass holders but we very intentionally make sure to get days in at magic, mad, smuggs, platty. And when we go to those places we buy our food and drink. I refuse to spend an extra nickel at the ikon resorts on that stuff. i'm also going to silverton co in two weeks. so i feel pretty good about mixing in the indies. 

Thanks for keeping Magic special

considering a magic sunday pass for next year since i prefer skiing soVT on sundays to shorten the drive home. stratton doesn't cut it. at all. i tend to leave there angry at groomers and gapers.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 14, 2019)

You beat me to it, DHS.  The article has a lot of truth to it.  Folks in Park City saw a lot of these issues coming when Vail first showed up in 2014.  The housing situation is really bad.  The traffic and lack of parking is a real problem.  Park City only ran shuttles from the high school to the mountain, on the taxpayer's dime, for Sundance or the World Cup events at Deer Valley.  Now they run it every weekend and holiday.  The comparison between money Vail has spent on employee housing versus on-mountain improvements is pretty eye-opening.  And, assuming that the article is right that Epic is $939 or so for next year, unrestricted, then I have to say that the price is not "that" great of a deal as it once was.  Same with Ikon.  I'm not sure if that will curb sales.

The author also did a good job commenting on the issue of beginner skiers and riders, as has been pointed out here.  That is a legitimate concern.


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## Rogman (Mar 15, 2019)

Internet has changed many things. VRBO, the ability to instantly price shop, has made realtors far less the gatekeepers to rentals than they use to be. It has nothing to do with passes. And does anybody pay the walk up window rate for a lift ticket? It’s like the manufacturers suggested retail price on an automobile. Many resorts offer lesson deals to bring in new skiers. Cheap passes are about brand loyalty but it only works if the brand is worth being loyal to. For all Vail’s faults they do invest in their resorts.


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## drjeff (Mar 15, 2019)

Rogman said:


> Internet has changed many things. VRBO, the ability to instantly price shop, has made realtors far less the gatekeepers to rentals than they use to be. It has nothing to do with passes. And does anybody pay the walk up window rate for a lift ticket? It’s like the manufacturers suggested retail price on an automobile. Many resorts offer lesson deals to bring in new skiers. Cheap passes are about brand loyalty but it only works if the brand is worth being loyal to. For all Vail’s faults they do invest in their resorts.




Whether this is a good or a bad thing is still TBD.... Having a generation now who is trained to think that basically the only way to purchase something is online vs in person, no matter what they're looking to buy/consume basically is likely going to create many more problems, and maybe close to an equal amount as the convenience about everything online consuming can add as well.


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## njdiver85 (Mar 15, 2019)

I was probably the poster child a few weeks ago for why resorts charge such high walk-up rates.  Planned a last minute trip (like 10 days in advance) out west to ski with friends.  Was my only trip out west and don't have IKON or EPIC.  Knew we were going to be at PCMR or DV, but didn't have a day by day plan or even how many days at each resort, only than we would figure it out day or two before the actual ski day where we'd go.  And even when we did for example purchase tickets online the night before, the "discount" off the walk up rates was only like $5.  That plus eating in the lodges was pretty costly.  Interestingly, PCMR food prices were now pretty much the same as DV, but portion sizes and quality at DV were much better.


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## abc (Mar 15, 2019)

I don't think an occasional window ticket is what people are talking about. I've done that too, when the situation warrants it. But I limit the occasion that happens. 

It's people who are just starting who will be hit hard, and potentially deterred from progressing. 

But from the "ski corporation"s point of view, "a bird in hand is worth 2 in the woods". Hence the low season pass price.


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## slatham (Mar 15, 2019)

There's a new factor to the equation for next year - "EPIC for Everyone". Advance purchase 1-7 day "pass" valid at all Vail owned resorts, which at its best can get daily rate to $106. Not exactly a bargain, but way lower than walk up or short-term advance purchase.


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## mbedle (Mar 15, 2019)

slatham said:


> There's a new factor to the equation for next year - "EPIC for Everyone". Advance purchase 1-7 day "pass" valid at all Vail owned resorts, which at its best can get daily rate to $106. Not exactly a bargain, but way lower than walk up or short-term advance purchase.



Actually, the epic day pass non holiday can get the day rates down to $89 adult and $47 child.


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## mbedle (Mar 15, 2019)

Speaking of pricing out new skiers, how many children/young adults actually learn how to ski at the major resorts? I got to believe that the majority of people start skiing at their local smaller feeder hills. Most of those places are not associated with Vail or Alterra and the some that are, still have very reasonable day rates. Do we honestly think that a bunch of high school kids are traveling up to Stowe to try out skiing or just heading over to Mountain Creek? All the parents that I know down here in PA take their kids to the local places to introduce their kids to skiing.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 15, 2019)

mbedle said:


> *Speaking of pricing out new skiers, how many children/young adults actually learn how to ski at the major resorts?* I got to believe that the majority of people start skiing at their local smaller feeder hills. Most of those places are not associated with Vail or Alterra and the some that are, still have very reasonable day rates. *Do we honestly think that a bunch of high school kids are traveling up to Stowe to try out skiing* or just heading over to Mountain Creek? All the parents that I know down here in PA take their kids to the local places to introduce their kids to skiing.



Disagree.   

And I can tell you when I worked at Stowe a ****ton of first-time-on-skis folks showed-up every week.

Hell, by the time I even learned of a Magic or a Plattekill for the first time I was already an advanced skier.  It turns out, major corporations spend millions of dollars on marketing for a reason.


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## skiur (Mar 17, 2019)

Most people are coming from NYC and Boston, they don't have feeder hills.


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## Domeskier (Mar 17, 2019)

skiur said:


> Most people are coming from NYC and Boston, they don't have feeder hills.



Don’t know much about Boston, but there are lots of local hills in the Triststate area.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 17, 2019)

Boston area has Blue Hills, Bradford, Ward and Nashoba.  Wachusette used to be, but they price it almost as high as much larger areas in NH. 

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## JimG. (Mar 17, 2019)

Domeskier said:


> Don’t know much about Boston, but there are lots of local hills in the Triststate area.



In fact, more ski areas in NY than any other state. Many are small feeder hills.


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## abc (Mar 17, 2019)

But perhaps like *skiur, *they don’t know there’re feeder hills nearby. So they go to the only ones they heard of, Stowe etc.


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## Boxtop Willie (Mar 17, 2019)

Bradford, Ward Hill, Blue Hills and Nashoba are the definition of feeder hill. I'll bet they did a combined 200,000 lessons this year...probably more. And the vast majority kids levels 1-4. One would think the larger areas would pay more attention.


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## jimk (Mar 17, 2019)

njdiver85 said:


> I was probably the poster child a few weeks ago for why resorts charge such high walk-up rates.  Planned a last minute trip (like 10 days in advance) out west to ski with friends.  Was my only trip out west and don't have IKON or EPIC.  Knew we were going to be at PCMR or DV, but didn't have a day by day plan or even how many days at each resort, only than we would figure it out day or two before the actual ski day where we'd go.  And even when we did for example purchase tickets online the night before, the "discount" off the walk up rates was only like $5.  That plus eating in the lodges was pretty costly.  Interestingly, PCMR food prices were now pretty much the same as DV, but portion sizes and quality at DV were much better.



Interesting post and I applaud your candidness.  I am so far removed from this mindset that I am curious how it came about for you.  I usually have next season mostly planned out before the last one ends.  Did someone propose the trip to you and entice you to participate late in the schedule?  Were you attracted to the good snow fall out west this year and wanted to storm chase?  Did an unexpected opening in your work allow for free time?  Did you come into some money
Thanks.

About the mega passes, all I can say is the numerous western resorts I've been to this winter (A-Basin, Crested Butte, Snowbird, Park City, Big Sky are all hopping.  Business is good out here!


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## Edd (Mar 18, 2019)

jimk said:


> Interesting post and I applaud your candidness.  I am so far removed from this mindset that I am curious how it came about for you.  I usually have next season mostly planned out before the last one ends.



I’ve never planned it out that far in advance. I wait to see if an area is having a good overall season first. I could see reserving ahead at a cat skiing operation in BC kind of place, which may have limited spots.


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## skiur (Mar 18, 2019)

JimG. said:


> In fact, more ski areas in NY than any other state. Many are small feeder hills.



NYS has plenty of small feeder hills, but NYC does not......not many people get their start at campgaw which would be the closest small hill to NYC, People from NYC (which makes up the an awful lot of people going to VT) are going to hunter, mt snow, killington etc because that is where their friends and family are going.


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## abc (Mar 18, 2019)

Edd said:


> I’ve never planned it out that far in advance. I wait to see if an area is having a good overall season first. I could see reserving ahead at a cat skiing operation in BC kind of place, which may have limited spots.


I used to do that. 

But the mega-pass had changed it. The price of paying last minute lift tickets means I could ski twice as many days/places for the same cost if I’m on a pass. So now I pick a pass that has a wide geographic diversity and wait for snow to fall on one of the mountains included in the pass. That used to mean Mountain Collective, then MAX/IKON. Though with latest Vail acquisition in different regions, EPIC is also becoming an option. 

I think I maybe what Alterra was targeting. Vacationer who wants the price break of advanced purchase with still the freedom to chase snow.


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## abc (Mar 18, 2019)

skiur said:


> NYS has plenty of small feeder hills, but NYC does not......not many people get their start at campgaw which would be the closest small hill to NYC, People from NYC (which makes up the an awful lot of people going to VT) are going to hunter, mt snow, killington etc because that is where their friends and family are going.


Actually, Thunder Ridge is closer. And it does get plenty of beginners from NYC. 

But like I said, most people don’t know about these feeder hills. Hunter, Stratton and Okemo are the ads you see in the subways and buses.


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## Edd (Mar 18, 2019)

abc said:


> I used to do that.
> 
> But the mega-pass had changed it. The price of paying last minute lift tickets means I could ski twice as many days/places for the same cost if I’m on a pass. So now I pick a pass that has a wide geographic diversity and wait for snow to fall on one of the mountains included in the pass. That used to mean Mountain Collective, then MAX/IKON. Though with latest Vail acquisition in different regions, EPIC is also becoming an option.
> 
> I think I maybe what Alterra was targeting. Vacationer who wants the price break of advanced purchase with still the freedom to chase snow.



Buying a Ikon-like Pass makes perfect sense for many of us, but I read jimk’s post as committing to an area with plane tix and hotel reservations the season before. 

It’s not a huge gamble but we’ve seen dry seasons in recent years (Tahoe, Utah). 


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## Killingtime (Mar 18, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, Thunder Ridge is closer. And it does get plenty of beginners from NYC.
> 
> But like I said, most people don’t know about these feeder hills. Hunter, Stratton and Okemo are the ads you see in the subways and buses.



You can take Metro North from Grand Central to Thunder Ridge. They will pick you up at the Patterson train station on weekends. You are right though, most people don't know about these small hills because they lack the advertising budgets. Stratton spent big money this year on NYC/LI area advertising. Their ads are everywhere. CT has a bunch of feeder hills, but again no one knows about them because there is little to no advertising. You would think the CT Tourism Board could put together some kind of inexpensive campaign to promote them.


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## jimk (Mar 18, 2019)

Edd said:


> Buying a Ikon-like Pass makes perfect sense for many of us, but I read jimk’s post as committing to an area with plane tix and hotel reservations the season before.
> 
> It’s not a huge gamble but we’ve seen dry seasons in recent years (Tahoe, Utah).
> 
> ...



Not so much plane tix and hotels, but more lift ticket strategy; such as will I be using a megapass,, liftopia, four-packs, etc.  Maybe I'm weird to plan trips that cost hundreds or thousands in travel expenses by starting with the cost of tix???  I have talked with folks who do last minute trips and pay full for tix, but use hotel or airline points to get most other costs low or free and they do very well on overall costs that way.


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## slatham (Mar 18, 2019)

https://www.aspendailynews.com/opin...cle_ecc7d43e-46cf-11e9-9f75-ab6cabb0ebf3.html


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## abc (Mar 18, 2019)

jimk said:


> Maybe I'm weird to plan trips that cost hundreds or thousands in travel expenses by starting with the cost of tix???


It isn't weird. The per day cost of lift ticket, hotel and car rental are all in the same level. So any obvious saving in one category frees up money to splurge on the other.  



> I have talked with folks who do last minute trips and pay full for tix, but use hotel or airline points to get most other costs low or free and they do very well on overall costs that way.


That would explain why people using hotel/airline points can afford to splurge on lift tickets. 

Also I said I maybe the target of Alterra, vacationer who wants the price break of advanced purchase with still the freedom to chase snow. My actual usage of the pass doesn't exactly fit that pattern. Instead of doing the same number of days at a destination of best snow, I actually try to use the pass for many more days! (as many as I can find time for, even at the expense of considerable additional travel cost) 

I am part of the "crowd" making mountains a lot more busy!


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## 2planks2coasts (Mar 21, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, Thunder Ridge is closer. And it does get plenty of beginners from NYC.
> 
> But like I said, most people don’t know about these feeder hills. Hunter, Stratton and Okemo are the ads you see in the subways and buses.



Don't forget Mt. Peter!  We lost Tuxedo Ridge a couple seasons back unfortunately, but with Thunder Ridge, Campgaw, Mt. Peter, Mountain Creek, there's still a few spots to play near the city.


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## Killingtime (Mar 21, 2019)

2planks2coasts said:


> Don't forget Mt. Peter!.



Didn't they just put in a new quad?


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## Domeskier (Mar 21, 2019)

Killingtime said:


> Didn't they just put in a new quad?



Wow.  They did.  2017.  Wonder if they have any plans to replace the redundant diesel-powered chair.


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## dlague (Mar 21, 2019)

jimk said:


> Interesting post and I applaud your candidness.  I am so far removed from this mindset that I am curious how it came about for you.  I usually have next season mostly planned out before the last one ends.  Did someone propose the trip to you and entice you to participate late in the schedule?  Were you attracted to the good snow fall out west this year and wanted to storm chase?  Did an unexpected opening in your work allow for free time?  Did you come into some money
> Thanks.
> 
> About the mega passes, all I can say is the numerous western resorts I've been to this winter (A-Basin, Crested Butte, Snowbird, Park City, Big Sky are all hopping.  Business is good out here!


About the end of your post regarding business - hello ya things are hopping for sure.  This has been the busiest season so far since we have been out here.  Conditions have been phenomenal.  As far as mega passes,  well I am a huge fan after taking advantage of then for a few years.

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## abc (Mar 22, 2019)

dlague said:


> As far as mega passes,  well I am a huge fan after taking advantage of then for a few years.


You're in Colorado, the base of Epic and Alterra. 

What non-mega pass mountain are left? Are there even remotely the same size and diversity of skiing as those included in the mega passes?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2019)

So this is a first for Deer Valley: running out of parking on WEEKDAYS.  

https://www.parkrecord.com/news/deer-valley-searching-for-parking-tapped-garage-in-main-street-core/

(You May have to answer a question to see the article)


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> *this is a first for Deer Valley: running out of parking on WEEKDAYS.  *


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## JimG. (Mar 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


>



Now this is funny!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2019)

Deer Valley posted this message again today:



> The Snow Park Parking Lots are currently full. We encourage guests to use the free public transit system instead of parking



It's March 23rd, yet ski resorts are still packed?


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## Edd (Mar 23, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Deer Valley posted this message again today:
> 
> 
> 
> It's March 23rd, yet ski resorts are still packed?



At a destination area on a Saturday, that doesn’t blow my mind.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2019)

Edd said:


> At a destination area on a Saturday, that doesn’t blow my mind.



But it is not normally THIS busy THIS late in the season, especially for DV.


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## machski (Mar 23, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> But it is not normally THIS busy THIS late in the season, especially for DV.


When we visited earlier in February, I didn't get the feeling DV was ever set up as a resort for day/visiting skiers.  They may need to revisit their day lodges/parking moving forward within Alterra.

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## lerops (Mar 23, 2019)

Somebody told me that DV is asking for “reservations” for Ikon passes. You can’t just show up. Is that true?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2019)

lerops said:


> Somebody told me that DV is asking for “reservations” for Ikon passes. You can’t just show up. Is that true?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yep. That’s because they cap ticket sales. 




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## thetrailboss (Aug 20, 2019)

Bump.  

Aspen responds to Ikon hate.

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/local/aspen-skiing-co-to-adjust-for-ikon-crowds-in-19-20-season/


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2019)

> In an annual update to Aspen City Council on Monday, Mike Kaplan, Skico’s *president and CEO, spoke about specifics of last season’s surge of Ikon Pass holders *at Aspen-Snowmass resorts. *Most of those visitors came on the weekends, choking parking and traffic* at Aspen Highlands, *as well as lift lines.*



Wait, a ski area CEO is actually publicly admitting that a big part of the major increase in crowds is from IKON passholders & not simply due to a great snow year?


*WE HAVE A TURD IN THE PUNCHBOWL!* 

*This is NOT a drill. * 

_REPEAT.  _

_We_ *HAVE* _a turd *IN* the punchbowl. OVER?_


----------



## mbedle (Aug 21, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wait, a ski area CEO is actually publicly admitting that a big part of the major increase in crowds is from IKON passholders & not simply due to a great snow year?
> 
> 
> *WE HAVE A TURD IN THE PUNCHBOWL!*
> ...



I'm confused, didn't Eldora and Abasin also state that fact when they left the partnership with Vail?


----------



## slatham (Aug 21, 2019)

A-Basin announced leaving EPIC in Feb/March. Joined Ikon a few weeks ago.

Eldora was Ikon last season.I don't recall them ever being Epic but not an expert on that mountains pass status.


----------



## Domeskier (Aug 21, 2019)

I like how he lays the blame on sneaky young Californians and Front Rangers who "look and act like a local," whatever that means.


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## JimG. (Aug 21, 2019)

Adding more chairs to the lifts will ensure that next season skiers complain because the trails are overcrowded too.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 21, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Adding more chairs to the lifts will ensure that next season skiers complain because the trails are overcrowded too.


Just exactly how is that done?  Chairlifts are designed for a specific capacity and have to pass load tests prior to use.  Or is the implication that they've been running their lifts under capacity until now?


----------



## drjeff (Aug 21, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Just exactly how is that done?  Chairlifts are designed for a specific capacity and have to pass load tests prior to use.  Or is the implication that they've been running their lifts under capacity until now?



For whatever reason the resort desires, not all lifts operate at maximum capacity, and often that is based on how many chairs they have on the haul rope (especially with detachable lifts) or sometimes the speed at which the haul rope travels. Both options can effectively keep the numbers of chairs that load/unload per hour at a quantity below what the lift is capable of handling to attempt to limit downhill volume.

The simplest example of this that I can think of, is the Bluebird at Mount Snow.  Those bubbles load every 9 seconds, so if there's an hour of continuous operation with full chairs, it will put 2400 people an hour at the Summit.  The lift is capable of loading a chair every 6 seconds, which would put 3600 people an hour at the Summit if they ordered more chairs to allow for 6 second spacing.  The haul rope would still operate at the same 1000 ft/min it does.

So yes, sometimes, they can add more chairs, thus reducing the spacing between the chairs and the time between loading/unloading, and still have the lift operate within its safety parameters and capability all with just some work to reprogram the loading/unloading mechanisms in a nut shell


----------



## machski (Aug 21, 2019)

ThinkSnow said:


> Just exactly how is that done?  Chairlifts are designed for a specific capacity and have to pass load tests prior to use.  Or is the implication that they've been running their lifts under capacity until now?


Happens a lot, resorts can save a few bucks by ordering less than a full complement of carriers for a brand new lift.  Bretton Woods new Gondola will not have a full complement of cabins compared to the design capacity when it opens.  Loon's North Peak Quad when built did not have a full complement of chairs (it does now) nor did the current Gondola when it opened (it does now as well).  Another example in the East was the Six Pack at Ragged, it was originally ordered with half the carriers it could handle IIRC.  I know they have added chairs there as well, not sure it is up to a full complement or not now.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Aug 21, 2019)

Of note, when you receive a lift profile from an engineer it has capacity (in PPH), speed, and # of carriers, etc. This is all fed into the HP of the motor(s) required, number of towers, their height and profile, diameter of haul rope, etc and so on. It is always designed at max capacity, and can be cut down as desired. A load test is required whenever a capacity change is made.


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 21, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Of note, when you receive a lift profile from an engineer it has capacity (in PPH), speed, and # of carriers, etc. This is all fed into the HP of the motor(s) required, number of towers, their height and profile, diameter of haul rope, etc and so on. It is always designed at max capacity, and can be cut down as desired. A load test is required whenever a capacity change is made.


Exactly, so it will be interesting to see if the additional load testing happens, or if that article was just a bunch of crap.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 21, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *For whatever reason the resort desires, not all lifts operate at maximum capacity*



Or you can be like Jay Peak & operate your aerial tram for more than 50 years beyond its' rated safety capacity.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Or you can be like Jay Peak & operate your aerial tram for more than 50 years beyond its' rated safety capacity.



?

I am pretty sure that all of the required safety upgrades have been made and it still is in operable condition.  Granted, they did have some significant issues in the recent past that I think are resolved.


----------



## machski (Aug 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> ?
> 
> I am pretty sure that all of the required safety upgrades have been made and it still is in operable condition.  Granted, they did have some significant issues in the recent past that I think are resolved.


Yeah, it's called a 50 or 60 passenger box that is only allowed to carry what, 40 people at a time now?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2019)

machski said:


> Yeah, it's called a 50 or 60 passenger box that is only allowed to carry what, 40 people at a time now?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



So I recall that issue, but wasn't that resolved?  Or was the issue that the weight limits when calculated way back when factored in people who were of a LIGHTER average weight now compared to our current average weight (due to lots of poutine or McDonald's, or whatever  )


----------



## Harvey (Aug 21, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Adding more chairs to the lifts will ensure that next season skiers complain because the trails are overcrowded too.



How is Aspen for crowded trails now?


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## machski (Aug 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So I recall that issue, but wasn't that resolved?  Or was the issue that the weight limits when calculated way back when factored in people who were of a LIGHTER average weight now compared to our current average weight (due to lots of poutine or McDonald's, or whatever  )


It wound up that apparently as I recall, they forgot to calculate in the water tanks for the summit lodge on each tram.  And something to do with the anchoring not being rated for the actual cabin weight.  I'm not sure they ever redid the anchoring when they switched out cabins years ago.  The control systems are all new and up to standards now.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2019)

machski said:


> It wound up that apparently as I recall, they forgot to calculate in the water tanks for the summit lodge on each tram.  And something to do with the anchoring not being rated for the actual cabin weight.  I'm not sure they ever redid the anchoring when they switched out cabins years ago.  The control systems are all new and up to standards now.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app




I think that the anchoring was fixed a few years ago....


----------



## catskillman (Aug 21, 2019)

abc said:


> Actually, Thunder Ridge is closer. And it does get plenty of beginners from NYC.
> 
> But like I said, most people don’t know about these feeder hills. Hunter, Stratton and Okemo are the ads you see in the subways and buses.



now they can go learn indoors in NJ at American Dream!!


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 21, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> ?
> 
> *I am pretty sure that all of the required safety upgrades have been made and it still is in operable condition.*



Now, yes.

I'm talking about the 50 consecutive years (which ended recently) that they were (apparently unwittingly) operating the tram beyond its' stated safety weight limit.


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## fbrissette (Aug 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Now, yes.
> 
> I'm talking about the 50 consecutive years (which ended recently) that they were (apparently unwittingly) operating the tram beyond its' stated safety weight limit.




Good thing these are designed with safety factors...


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## thetrailboss (Aug 22, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Now, yes.
> 
> I'm talking about the 50 consecutive years (which ended recently) that they were (apparently unwittingly) operating the tram beyond its' stated safety weight limit.



Sounds like they were as good at engineering as they were at managing money.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2019)

https://www.postindependent.com/new...ass-holders-quit-blaming-them-for-lift-lines/


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## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Now, yes.
> 
> I'm talking about the 50 consecutive years (which ended recently) that they were (apparently unwittingly) operating the tram beyond its' stated safety weight limit.



And speaking of Jay........

https://jaypeakresort.com/resort/blog-updates/nuts-bolts


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2019)

One thing that never seems to get mentioned in this discussion when CEOs etc... are "defending" IKON & EPIC in terms of it supposedly not causing crowding, is the fact that *both* products are still ramping.  In IKON's case, the YoY growth is impressive as it's a less mature product.

 In other words, if you're an IKON mountain and you thought it was bad in 2018-2019, it's only going to get worse assuming the snow years are somewhat similar.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 6, 2019)

It'll be interesting to see how this year pans out.  Last year was unique in that virtually everywhere in the country had above average to exceptional winter weather.  Well maybe not the Mid Atlantic.  But New England, Colorado, Utah, California, the PNW and Upper Rockies all seemed to do well.  The economy is also quite good.  

The sport as I understand it is still pretty flat from a participation standpoint.  

Epic might actually reduce crowds slightly in the MWV.  Typical valley skiers from metro Boston might slide some of their business over to Sunapee and Okemo.  I can only hope. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

Well now....

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environ...muqoVXjx1qxx5yHHwkrI6AR9HBTReWGRqRZpNrQnfpPmI


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Well now....
> 
> https://www.sltrib.com/news/environ...muqoVXjx1qxx5yHHwkrI6AR9HBTReWGRqRZpNrQnfpPmI



Another casualty of the mega pass.  This is really just an excuse to create additional revenue, but if volume hadn't greatly increased due to the mega pass, they wouldn't be in this position to fleece people.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Another casualty of the mega pass.  This is really just an excuse to create additional revenue, but if volume hadn't greatly increased due to the mega pass, they wouldn't be in this position to fleece people.



Well, I was just about to ask the logical question of, "what are you going to do with all that money?"  I was hoping that it would be used for the transportation issue, but I think you are right.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I was just about to ask the logical question of, "what are you going to do with all that money?"  I was hoping that it would be used for the transportation issue, but *I think you are right.*



I'm definitely right.   The next thing that's coming, is when we find out more information, I guarantee they're going to say that in addition to the stated goal of reducing traffic, that this is also_ "good for the environment" _and try to tie a social justice component into it too.  That's S.O.P. with these things, and I'm always amazed how many truly gullible people there are that actually swallow that.

If they wanted to make it less obvious that it's a total cash grab, they would just do this on the weekend, or maybe the weekend + powder days, but there's no reason to charge every car $20 for a random Wednesday in March.  Total cash grab.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

It dawned on me today, that these mega passes are bad for another aspect of the skiing industry, the ski club.

Part of the reason why many people join these clubs is for all the discounted ski club days and for all the lift ticket purchase discounts.  Given we've seen many ski club days killed off that has to be a negative.  Also, assuming you're even allowed to buy discounted tickets anymore, the growth of the mega pass makes discounted tickets less necessary as more people gobble up season passes.  This too has to be negative for ski clubs.

Anyone here a long-time member of a ski club, and if so, do you know if membership is down this year versus say 5 or 8 years ago?  I'd like to test my hypothesis.


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## Edd (Sep 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm definitely right.   The next thing that's coming, is when we find out more information, I guarantee they're going to say that in addition to the stated goal of reducing traffic, that this is also_ "good for the environment" _and try to tie a social justice component into it too.  That's S.O.P. with these things, and I'm always amazed how many truly gullible people there are that actually swallow that.
> 
> If they wanted to make it less obvious that it's a total cash grab, they would just do this on the weekend, or maybe the weekend + powder days, but there's no reason to charge every car $20 for a random Wednesday in March.  Total cash grab.



They are charging less if more people are in the car. Also, donating some of these profits. Cash grab sure, but there are benefits here.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

I'm actually pretty surprised by this bit:



> Those who wish to carpool will be able to *use a new ride-sharing app. Solitude is investing in the app* to help skiers and snowboarders get to and from the resort with ease



I'm not a lawyer, but isnt this potentially (god-forbid) opening them up to huge legal exposure?


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## Jully (Sep 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> If they wanted to make it less obvious that it's a total cash grab, they would just do this on the weekend, or maybe the weekend + powder days, but there's no reason to charge every car $20 for a random Wednesday in March.  Total cash grab.



Honestly I'm not horribly opposed to weekend cash grab tactics for parking given it is now SO limited in BCC. The traffic jams getting down are worrysome and something needs to be done. If a resort can reduce the number of cars by a small percent and make money in the process, I'm fine with that. $150 for a season parking pass for passholders is not bad too. This strikes me as a charge against visitors and might push some more of them to use the ski bus or generate money for the resort. Fine with me.

However, midweek parking charges annoy me. When congestion is not an issue... don't charge.


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## Jully (Sep 17, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm actually pretty surprised by this bit:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but isnt this potentially (god-forbid) opening them up to huge legal exposure?



I thought about this too. Snowbird launched a ride share app last year, so it has been done before. No idea about the legal ramifications.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

Jully said:


> Honestly I'm not horribly opposed to weekend cash grab tactics for parking given it is now SO limited in BCC. The traffic jams getting down are worrysome and something needs to be done. If a resort can reduce the number of cars by a small percent and make money in the process, I'm fine with that. $150 for a season parking pass for passholders is not bad too. This strikes me as a charge against visitors and might push some more of them to use the ski bus or generate money for the resort. Fine with me.
> 
> However, midweek parking charges annoy me. When congestion is not an issue... don't charge.



Yeah, this is a new problem.  BCC was NEVER a problem before last season.


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## FBGM (Sep 17, 2019)

Such a dick move. Ride my damn snowmobile there and park it where I want. Fuck you’re $20

I’ll just park on the road. Or park at Brighton. 

Cash grab. Right after pass deadlines. Super cock move. Would expect from Vail not these guys.


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## ss20 (Sep 17, 2019)

I love this sport, and want a high-quality experience.  IMO, if you're a season passholder and it's $150 for a seasonal parking pass, if that decreases skiers on the hill and decreases travel time up the road both by 20% that's a win.  Now if traffic does not improve and there's just as many skiers on the hill then yeah I'd be pissed.  But if it actually does decrease those figures it's a small price for a higher quality experience. 

And yes this is a corporate money grab.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 17, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Cash grab. *Right after pass deadlines*.



This is my favorite part.  LOL


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 17, 2019)

So if you have a large SUV with capacity to hold 4+ skiers with gear you pay less...

If I roll up in my Subaru solo because no friends on powder days I pay 4x the rate?

Not that it's in my near term plans but I will never ski Solitude for engaging in social engineering at the expense of those who can least afford it (and least willing to tolerate it).


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## machski (Sep 17, 2019)

It's a bit ironic too that the only unlimited Ikon pass resort in the canyons is the one instituting pay for parking.  Visitors can avoid that by skiing Brighton and just taking the interconnect to ski Solitude.  But with only a Max of 7 days at Brighton, locals cannot do that often.  Based on that perspective, seems targeted to the local skiers to me. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

machski said:


> It's a bit ironic too that the only unlimited Ikon pass resort in the canyons is the one instituting pay for parking.  Visitors can avoid that by skiing Brighton and just taking the interconnect to ski Solitude.  But with only a Max of 7 days at Brighton, locals cannot do that often.  Based on that perspective, seems targeted to the local skiers to me.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



You just made me realize that now Brighton and LCC is going to be bad again because folks will be too cheap to pay for parking at Solitude.  And once again Alterra dropped this change on the rest of us with no warning. 
 Just like last year.  Awesome.  :roll:


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

Let the games begin....from their FB page:



> Leslie Warnock Price We purchased 7 passes for our large family. We would have NEVER purchased it if we had known that Solitude, would start charing for parking. No where in the fine print did it talk about a fee for parking.
> I understand that the canyon and the parking lot at Solitude is completely maxed out. I understand that the goal is to encourage carpooling. I hope that encouraging more bus riders is NOT the goal because the nearby bus lots are maxed out as well. The buses are so slow and a nightmare with kids. There have been no improvements made to the parking situation in either the Solitude or Bus lots!
> We obviously carpool each time we come. It is completely unethical to add a parking fee now at this point when the passes have been paid for and are non-refundable and it's so late in the year that we've lost our options to purchase elsewhere.
> My family has had passes at Alta the past several years and at Park City before that. We decided to try the Epic pass and now we regret that! If this is not made right we will make sure to never buy Epic or Solitude again nor let anyone we know make the same mistake.
> Please tell me how you plan to make this right. Please do not suggest that I buy the $150 parking pass, that is ridiculous.





> Liz Chappell Ence Outrageous parking fees? And you are telling us now after we purchased our season pass. I certainly wouldn't have purchased my pass here if I knew it would add a significant amount to the cost. I get the traffic problem but what are the options for locals who ski for a few hours mid week? Where do you park to carpool to catch the bus? From the small crowded parking lot at the mouth of the canyon which is usually full? Can I get a refund please!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

> Cory Lynn Bluemel I would have bought the Epic Pass if I knew you were going to be screwing over single skiers so hard, and now the parking season pass doesn't even guarantee a parking spot? before we just showed up early. Also you won't even make it a physical pass? i can only attach it to two cars? Some people dont just drive the same 2 cars all winter or only own 2. This was a super bogus move to pull AFTER selling season passes. Very manipulative and underhanded for a resort so many love.





> Michael Hart Tell us in advance. I want my season pass money back. I will never ski Solitude again.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

> Cory Lynn Bluemel I would have bought the Epic Pass if I knew you were going to be screwing over single skiers so hard, and now the parking season pass doesn't even guarantee a parking spot? before we just showed up early. Also you won't even make it a physical pass? i can only attach it to two cars? Some people dont just drive the same 2 cars all winter or only own 2. This was a super bogus move to pull AFTER selling season passes. Very manipulative and underhanded for a resort so many love.





> Michael Hart Tell us in advance. I want my season pass money back. I will never ski Solitude again.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 17, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


>



Solitude's GM was quoted in that article as saying this was an experiment like jumping off a cliff and seeing what happens...should be fun to watch!


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## thetrailboss (Sep 17, 2019)

cdskier said:


> Solitude's GM was quoted in that article as saying this was an experiment like jumping off a cliff and seeing what happens...should be fun to watch!



Oh she has crashed for sure!



> Amy Swindle This has NOTHING to do with the environment at all. Disneyland in California charges like $140 for a ticket and $30 for parking because of CORPORATE GREED. Stop using your fake "it's for the environment!!" to justify this outrageous $20 parking. You guys are used cars salesman. "hey, buy the IKON pass in March". .... oh and then MONTHS later.. "pay us $20 EVERY TIME YOU PARK HERE too." Nice bait and switch there.



And they are deleting posts on FB.  Not a great move at all.



> Phil Lust Not sure why you think it’s a good idea to charge us for parking and then delete posts from people who are unhappy about it. You made this mess you should be able to take some backlash for it.
> You deceived all of us by allowing us to purchase season passes before announcing an additional parking charge! Shame on you! Solitude is known as the locals mountain and this is how you treat us!?! You should all be ashamed of how you handled this announcement.
> You SHOULD be offering all Ikon and season pass holders who purchased before your announcement a free parking pass OR announce you are starting this for the 2020-2021 season. I can guarantee this isn’t the last you’ll hear from all of us. So you should stop deleting posts from YOUR LOCALS and face the music!!





> Troy Davis Dear Solitude,
> I’ve loved you since I was a kid, for 40 years I’ve skied your slopes and enjoyed our time together. Skiing around cookie monster and big bird through Sesame Street, watching Eagle Express be the first detachable quad. There was so much excitement in our life together. I went along with the changes when you stretched your wings and tore down the a-frame at main street, built the village, and moonbeam lodge. I stuck with you when you went from a family owned resort to a corporation, then to another corporation. I even agreed to let us see other people when you took away my season pass and said in the name of progress we need to use the Ikon pass.
> I like progress and I have loved the fact that through all these changes I could still show up on a Sunday and not have lines, ski a Tuesday and you feel like its 1990 again. Inviting the rest of the world into our relationship has come with a heavy price on the parking lot. So I understand when you tell me you need to make more changes and begin to charge for parking, I get it, and I support your decision to do that. We all knew something had to give. It’s not about the fact you’re going to charge, it’s when you decided to announce it. I committed to you Solitude and you committed to me (you even sent me an ikon pass to prove your commitment to our relationship, it has my photo on it). But now you tell me that my commitment isn’t good enough and I’ll need to commit even more to have the privilege of loving you. And you made this statement AFTER all our agreements were made, we had an understanding. I feel violated.
> Please provide a no-cost parking pass for those that love you and have committed to you this year. If you’re worth it then you can tell me in advance next year and maybe I’ll be ready to continue loving the new you.
> ...


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## snoseek (Sep 19, 2019)

If the money was used to expand lots and beef up the bus system this would have been great but its not so this is bullshit. The traffic going up those canyons is a real problem and this won't fix much. 
Those bus lots are going to fill even faster now. There isn't enough space for everyone to shuttle up...they know that.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2019)

snoseek said:


> *If the money was used to expand lots and beef up the bus system this would have been great but its not so this is bullshit. *The traffic going up those canyons is a real problem and this won't fix much.
> *Those bus lots are going to fill even faster now.* There isn't enough space for everyone to shuttle up..*.they know that.*



I really sympathize for these locals.  Especially the families with children for whom $10 or $20 a pop each & every time you ski is a big expense.  Honestly, a huge bonus of even being a local is you can show up and ski for 1.5 hours or 3 hours or whenever you have a chance or desire, and now that's going to cost them more.   Intentionally dropping this on them after they're non-refundably paid is evil.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 19, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I really sympathize for these locals.  Especially the families with children for whom $10 or $20 a pop each & every time you ski is a big expense.  Honestly, a huge bonus of even being a local is you can show up and ski for 1.5 hours or 3 hours or whenever you have a chance or desire, and now that's going to cost them more.   Intentionally dropping this on them after they're non-refundably paid is evil.



A family skiing Solitude as locals, requires at a minimum, $2600 bucks a year plus gear. They can swing the 10 to 20 to park. 

Or take a bus, that already exists, for free. I personally hate the bus, but paid parking has been a fact of life for me for the past 12 years and it really isn't that big of a deal ultimately. It does do its job promoting car pooling and bus usage. 

Evil is not the right word for a business charging for an extremely in demand service / amenity. There are free alternatives already so take advantage of them.


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## fbrissette (Sep 19, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> A family skiing Solitude as locals, requires at a minimum, $2600 bucks a year plus gear. They can swing the 10 to 20 to park.
> 
> Or take a bus, that already exists, for free. I personally hate the bus, but paid parking has been a fact of life for me for the past 12 years and it really isn't that big of a deal ultimately. It does do its job promoting car pooling and bus usage.
> 
> Evil is not the right word for a business charging for an extremely in demand service / amenity. There are free alternatives already so take advantage of them.



If you ski 40 times per year (as many pass holder do), this is an extra 400-800$ to swing.  This is not an insignificant increase.


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## AdironRider (Sep 19, 2019)

And........ there is already a free bus you could take instead. That 4-800 is a matter of pure luxury. 

Nevermind this hypothetical family of locals getting squeezed would only pay $5 to park given Solitude's pricing structure, so like 200 bucks. And what were pass prices themselves pre-Ikon? Higher. Acting like this is a massive increase over previous years is disingenuous. 

Now crowding on the other hand, that is the real travesty.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 19, 2019)

Skied there last March on their busiest day (according to all the locals- IKON!) when LCC was closed after a dump.  Cars parked down the road.  Very crowded until about 11:30 then lifts were 5-10 chair wait.  Found freshies in Honeycomb all afternoon.  Empty all afternoon.


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## slatham (Sep 19, 2019)

Wow, text book case of how to piss off your clientele!!!! They need to give season pass holders a “pass” (pun intended) for this year on parking. Only fair way to deal with this.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 19, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> *A family skiing Solitude as locals, requires at a minimum, $2600 bucks a year plus gear. They can swing the 10 to 20 to park.*



How do you know what they can afford?   

While the Utah economy is booming, incomes there are still somewhat meager versus C.O.L.  

I could be wrong, but I'd speculate that the sole reason many from the SLC area choose Solitude over Alta/Bird is in fact 100% driven by lower cost.  If I lived there & could afford it, I sure as hell would have an Alta/Bird pass rather than a Solitude pass. Cost is literally the only reason I can think of to ski Solitude if I lived there.



AdironRider said:


> Evil is not the right word for* a business charging for an extremely in demand service / amenity. *



Frankly, if Solitude wanted to charge $200 to park, it's up to them and I couldnt care less.  The way they intentionally & deceptively went about doing this, however, was evil.  They locked everyone into a non-refundable contract, then only when they had the money locked in the bank, they spuriously dropped this additional not-insignificant expense on them.   



AdironRider said:


> Nevermind *this hypothetical family of locals getting squeezed would only pay $5 to park* given Solitude's pricing structure, so like 200 bucks.



Nope.   The $5 fee is only if you have 4 people, so it would need to be Mom & Dad & 2 kids in that example. Still, if you go 40 times a year that's still $200. 

And if a Mom or Dad wants to show up with their kid on a Sunday morning?   That's $20.  This is not an uncommon scenario.


----------



## machski (Sep 20, 2019)

fbrissette said:


> If you ski 40 times per year (as many pass holder do), this is an extra 400-800$ to swing.  This is not an insignificant increase.


And for those locals who go this often, they are offering a $175 season parking pass.  One $175 fee for everyone going in your vehicle all year.  That is not horrible and likely brings the total season pass price for a family to still less than a stand alone Solitude pass used to be.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 20, 2019)

Maybe a good idea to pick up  people who are walking in from the free road side parking.  Save them a walk and you some money.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2019)

sounds like a case to build the Wassatch 1 or whatever the gondola network was.  They actually have a unique situation where they could connect all these places, Europe style, and create something special.   

Build garages at the base of the Cottonwoods and in Park City and every takes a gondola or tram or whatever...  Limit cars up the cottonwoods to guests staying on site only. everyone else takes the public Gondola. I'm sure some of the tourist taxes already in place could easily fund this.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 20, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Maybe *a good idea to pick up  people who are walking in from the free road side parking.  Save them a walk and you some money.*



I read a post on FB about a guy thinking you can now make money running a small 12 or 15 person passenger van up the canyon. lol  



jimmywilson69 said:


> *sounds like a case to build the Wassatch 1 or whatever the gondola network was. * They actually have a unique situation where they could connect all these places, Europe style, and create something special.



While ONE Wasatch itself claims it's not dead, it seems like the eco-extremists are winning.  And IIRC they're trying to make deals and/or land acquisitions to put the final nails in that coffin.   Which is really sad, because I think if you had a ski connection between all those mountains it would confer an industry marketing advantage that would be worth untold millions of dollars annually to the local economy.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> a ski connection between all those mountains it would confer an industry marketing advantage that would be worth untold millions of dollars annually to the local economy.



Without a doubt.  This is where the US fails...  I mean there is no way that the areas between the cottonwoods and Park city are this pristine wilderness being that close to major metropolitan area and next 2 6 world class ski areas already. 

It would solve the damn problem of overcrowding!


----------



## abc (Sep 20, 2019)

I can see a couple of ways to beat it:

1) on weekdays when there's not much demand, people may choose to park at the mouth of the canyon and take the bus?

2) on weekend when the bus is likely to be full, drivers with empty seat may swing by the park n ride lot to fill the car up? (I've seen this done in the Jackson remote lot, cars came by asking people to jump in so they can get into the carpool lot)

Either way, probably very few cars in the $20 lot. Or maybe even the carpool lot will be fill all the way to the road?


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 20, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> How do you know what they can afford?



Because your poor hypothetical family already dropped 2600 bucks on passes, plus gear, etc. 200 bucks to park is less than an 8% increase in cost just on passes alone, less than 5 if they are really frugal with gear, less than 3 if they buy ski gear like most ski families do. That is basically inflation level price increases. Plus, Solitude passes were more expensive pre-Ikon. This family is saving money compared to prior ownership. 

$175 is a steal for a parking pass if you ski a bunch. They run 550+ here in Jackson, and that lot still requires a short bus ride. Vail? Hah, if you have to ask you can't afford it. Amongst their competitive set, Solitude's parking is affordable.


----------



## machski (Sep 20, 2019)

Don't forget, Solitud is supposedly launching a ride share app that will allow skiers/riders a chance to link up to car pool up.  You don't even need to hunt out the roadside cars, there'll be an app for that!

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2019)

machski said:


> Don't forget, Solitud is supposedly launching a ride share app that will allow skiers/riders a chance to link up to car pool up.  You don't even need to hunt out the roadside cars, there'll be an app for that!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Too bad Snowbird beat them....

https://www.snowbird.com/ride/


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Especially the families with children for whom $10 or $20 a pop each & every time you ski is a big expense.  Honestly, a huge bonus of even being a local is you can show up and ski for 1.5 hours or 3 hours or whenever you have a chance or desire, and now that's going to cost them more.   Intentionally dropping this on them after they're non-refundably paid is evil.



And guess what?  Folks who pay to park are going to make damn sure that they ski every minute because folks here are frugal at best but mainly cheap.  So the lot will not turnover.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> A family skiing Solitude as locals, requires at a minimum, $2600 bucks a year plus gear. They can swing the 10 to 20 to park.
> 
> Or take a bus, that already exists, for free. I personally hate the bus, but paid parking has been a fact of life for me for the past 12 years and it really isn't that big of a deal ultimately. It does do its job promoting car pooling and bus usage.
> 
> Evil is not the right word for a business charging for an extremely in demand service / amenity. There are free alternatives already so take advantage of them.



So good to see that Mr. KIA is back (know-it-all).

A few comments.  First, way to go on the generalizations there as to cost.  A lot of folks don't buy the full Ikon, but the entry-level pass.  It is (was) cheaper than that.  And those kiddos were free BTW for renewals, which were most folks.  Small detail.  And, as said, you have no idea how folks live or what choices they make.  

Second, you clearly can't read because SEVERAL folks here have already said that "take the bus" is not a feasible option because they are already full.  You even said it twice. That also goes to the point being made that the $$$ are NOT going to more busses but to Alterra's bottom line.  

Third, the "free alternatives" doesn't really work because this change was made AFTER folks bought passes.  Sure, they can use their days at other places, but that is capped.  

So moral of the story is stay in your lane.  :roll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 24, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Maybe a good idea to pick up  people who are walking in from the free road side parking.  Save them a walk and you some money.



:lol:


----------



## abc (Sep 24, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> And guess what?  Folks who pay to park are going to make damn sure that they ski every minute because folks here are frugal at best but mainly cheap.  So the lot will not turnover.


Not if they paid for the whole season. 

Question is will there be sufficient parking for those choosing to pay for the season?


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 25, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> So good to see that Mr. KIA is back (know-it-all).
> 
> A few comments.  First, way to go on the generalizations there as to cost.  A lot of folks don't buy the full Ikon, but the entry-level pass.  It is (was) cheaper than that.  And those kiddos were free BTW for renewals, which were most folks.  Small detail.  And, as said, you have no idea how folks live or what choices they make.
> 
> ...




Right, a bunch of frugal Mormons are spending thousands on skiing then bitching about 5-20 bucks to park. 

I don't disagree Utah isn't filled with people that one would consider cheap, but those people aren't skiers to begin with.  

I hate Ikon just as much as the next guy, exclusively due to the crowding it brings, but a ski resort charging to park is not new nor is it going to change much, outside of opening up spots for Joe Doctor and his buddy Dave Lawyer.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> *I hate Ikon just as much as the next guy, exclusively due to the crowding it brings*



Curious if given your role you've seen data proving the above?   

Because, while is seems entirely logical to the point of obviousness, pretty much every IKON (and EPIC) ski area in Baghdad Bob fashion claim what you say above is entirely false.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 25, 2019)

Final number was an 80,600 skier visit increase to Jackson last year. 715k total.


----------



## urungus (Sep 25, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Final number was an 80,600 skier visit increase to Jackson last year. 715k total.



Were they open the same number of days in both seasons ?


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 25, 2019)

urungus said:


> Were they open the same number of days in both seasons ?



Yep. Jackson consistently is only open from Thanksgiving to the first week of April, regardless of conditions.


----------



## Glenn (Sep 25, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Well now....
> 
> https://www.sltrib.com/news/environ...muqoVXjx1qxx5yHHwkrI6AR9HBTReWGRqRZpNrQnfpPmI



That's an interesting take. Yes, could alleviate congestion. But it could also add more fuel to the "This sport it too expensive fire." Seems that more people are leaving the sport vs. joining it.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Final number was an *80,600 skier visit increase* to Jackson last year. *715k total.*



So, a 12.7% increase YoY.

What's interesting is apparently the year before was also a record year at Jackson Hole at 634,500 according to this article, and that's pre-IKON.  So even without IKON, for whatever reason(s), it seems Jackson Hole was already getting more popular.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news...cle_74e0e79c-ed83-5a4f-b5b6-408b365126b0.html


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 25, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> What's interesting is apparently the year before was also a record year at Jackson Hole at 634,500 according to this article, and that's pre-IKON.  So even without IKON, for whatever reason(s), it seems Jackson Hole was already getting more popular.



The way I look at is they haven't been building all those fancy new lifts with no intention of attracting more visitors.  No doubt Ikon helped kick up the numbers even quicker though.


----------



## AdironRider (Sep 25, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> So, a 12.7% increase YoY.
> 
> What's interesting is apparently the year before was also a record year at Jackson Hole at 634,500 according to this article, and that's pre-IKON.  So even without IKON, for whatever reason(s), it seems Jackson Hole was already getting more popular.
> 
> https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news...cle_74e0e79c-ed83-5a4f-b5b6-408b365126b0.html



The previous year saw Colorado, California and Utah all have well below average snow years. Jackson may not beat Utah most of the time, but we are remarkably consistent and drew large increases from that. 

However, last year literally everyone had banner years, the only variance was Ikon. 

Upgrading the Casper lift and adding Teton did not drive hundreds of thousands of people to show up here, mountain collective and Ikon have.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 25, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Curious if given your role you've seen data proving the above?
> 
> Because, while is seems entirely logical to the point of obviousness, pretty much every IKON (and EPIC) ski area in Baghdad Bob fashion claim what you say above is entirely false.



Even Killington got unreasonably crowded on weekends last season because of the Ikon connection. As opposed to being just crowded. 

I wonder what the critical mass of eastern resorts leaving these types of passes would be to make offering them in the east unprofitable.


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## jaytrem (Sep 26, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Upgrading the Casper lift and adding Teton did not drive hundreds of thousands of people to show up here, mountain collective and Ikon have.



You know you're spoiled with new lifts when you don't even mention a gondola.  Summer visit way up too, Ikon/Mountain Collective the cause???

https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSRepo...n Graph (1904 - Last Calendar Year)?Park=YELL

https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSRepo...n Graph (1904 - Last Calendar Year)?Park=GRTE

Though something seems odd with the Grand Teton stats, why the peak in the late 70's then the sudden drop?  Changed their way of counting maybe?

At any rate it seems the word is out.


----------



## machski (Sep 27, 2019)

JimG. said:


> Even Killington got unreasonably crowded on weekends last season because of the Ikon connection. As opposed to being just crowded.
> 
> I wonder what the critical mass of eastern resorts leaving these types of passes would be to make offering them in the east unprofitable.


Yeah, non of Killington's lift improvements or on hill tunnels drove any curiosity at all to check it out.  I seriously doubt a capped Ikon product drove too many added souls to K over the previous Max Pass drive.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## JimG. (Sep 27, 2019)

machski said:


> Yeah, non of Killington's lift improvements or on hill tunnels drove any curiosity at all to check it out.  I seriously doubt a capped Ikon product drove too many added souls to K over the previous Max Pass drive.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Forgot the Max pass...as a mostly weekday skier now it is hard to gauge weekend crowds but a few last season were out of control if you chose your terrain unwisely.


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## abc (Sep 28, 2019)

Max was never really popular as it’s limited days unless you already got a “real” season pass on one of the mountains. And even then, it’s an upgrade that cost extra. 

(It works for a few of us “drifters” who can make do by stitching together the various 5 days from different mountains)

I don’t recall bumping into herds of MAX pass people on the mountain. In fact, the year I had it, which was the last year before Ikon, everyone I ran into on mountain was still surprised to hear about it for the first time!

Ikon has the advertising machine that Max did not.


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## machski (Sep 28, 2019)

abc said:


> Max was never really popular as it’s limited days unless you already got a “real” season pass on one of the mountains. And even then, it’s an upgrade that cost extra.
> 
> (It works for a few of us “drifters” who can make do by stitching together the various 5 days from different mountains)
> 
> ...


True on the advertising, but many skiers I know and had met knew about in the least or had the Max pass.  I went to Mt. Bachelor two Aprils in a row on it and both times, many of us out skiing that late there were Max pass holders from out East.  There was definitely added skiers from it.

That said, we have Ikon now and it dropped on arguably the best season for almost all regions of the country in years if not ever (rarely does the pacific, rockies and Northeast enjoy the seasons they did all in the same year).  In my mind, that makes comparisons to prior Ikon years tough, especially just with a visual gauge.  Add to it, most of the Rockies outside of Big Sky and Jackson had miserable ski seasons the year prior, the water gets cloudier.  Now, no doubt Ikon has very visual marketing.  It doesn't change the fact that one only gets 5 or 7 days at Killington, Sugarbush or the Boyne's.  So Ikon alone isn't driving crazy weekends, all weekends.  The big weekends JimG refered to at K were likely more related to weather for the weekend and immediately prior than just an Ikon effect.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Harvey (Sep 28, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Too bad Snowbird beat them....
> 
> https://www.snowbird.com/ride/



Why is that bad?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 29, 2019)

If I was going to take a WAG I'd say IKON is going to continue to ramp & bite into EPIC far more than Wall Street analysts currently seem to believe.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 6, 2019)

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/loc...-pass-to-overcrowd-ski-resorts-such-as-aspen/

Bump.  Alterra seems to think that they will "adjust" if resorts get crowded.  Or as they did here in Utah, charge for parking at Solitude (the only unlimited option for Ikon skiers) and dump the crowds on the other areas.  Classy.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 7, 2019)

You cannot claim to be 100% certain the "crowding" was solely a fluke from a big snow season, while moments later saying you'll be monitoring future years to see if the crowding's still a problem.  

 Anyone see the cognitive dissonance there?  

If the "crowding" truly was from the above average snow season & not due to IKON or EPIC, then your "crowding" should quickly disappear in either an average or a below average snow season.


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## jimk (Dec 7, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> If I was going to take a WAG I'd say IKON is going to continue to ramp & bite into EPIC far more than Wall Street analysts currently seem to believe.



Supposedly one of the reasons Arapahoe Basin ended their arrangement with Vail and the EpicPass was so they could control the guest experience and crowds.  Of course, then they promptly joined IKON:flag:

It will be interesting to see if crowds go up or down at A-Basin this season.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 7, 2019)

basin went from being unlimited on epic to being a 5/7 on ikon. that makes a big difference


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

The reality of the situation is that the immediate future for skiing is less about buying a pass to a single mountain, let alone buying a day ticket, and instead getting a discounted multi-mountain pass.  This is really back to the future.  Anyone else here remember the "All East" Pass from ASC?  That started out as a premium product but when ASC hit financial issues it became very similar to the Epic Pass in that it was a discounted product that led to crowded slopes.  

I recently listened to Vail's podcast on the rise of Epic and the story was pretty interesting.  It used to be a Colorado locals deal that was only available in-person and for sale one or two weekends a year.  Then they decided to expand it to online and open to everyone.  Then it became what it is today.  

ASC, of course, went under so we will never know what "would" have happened had the "All East" pass continued to exist.


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> basin went from being unlimited on epic to being a 5/7 on ikon. that makes a big difference


??


----------



## jaytrem (Dec 10, 2019)

abc said:


> ??



Ikon only gets your 5 or 7 days at A-basin depending on which pass you purchased.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 10, 2019)

Jim said basin left epic bc of crowds, but then asked why move to ikon.

I replied that epic was unlimited days, and ikon is limited days, and that will have a positive impact on parking and crowding, as less denverites will own an unlimited pass to a-basin than in the past few years


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

jaytrem said:


> Ikon only gets your 5 or 7 days at A-basin depending on which pass you purchased.



Going from unlimited to 5/7 days may make a difference.  But I can tell you that here in SLC 5-7 limits mean nothing and crowding is an issue.  Why would you pay $1,000 for a Snowbird Pass when you can pay the same and get 15 or 21 days combined at Alta/Snowbird, Brighton, and Deer Valley before you even have to set foot at Solitude?  A lot of folks think that the independent resorts here gave the store away to the Ikon Pass.  Us passholders got nothing in return.


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Jim said basin left epic bc of crowds, but then asked why move to ikon.
> 
> I replied that epic was unlimited days, and ikon is limited days, and that will have a positive impact on parking and crowding, as less denverites will own an unlimited pass to a-basin than in the past few years


Ok, I get that's what they THINK. 

Whether that'll bear out in reality is still to be seen. 

From what I heard, a good portion of Epic pass holders only ski less than 10 days anyway. If so, the 5/7 day limit may not make much of a difference. 

On the other hand, the people who're skiing at A-basin maybe the "other" portion of pass holders who ski a lot more than 10 days. If that's the case, it WILL make a big difference. 

(The monkey wrench for this season, a lot of the skiers who ski Basin more than 5/7 days already bought AB standalone pass BEFORE the announcement of AB joining IKON. So they will be there on top of the 5/7 day from the IKON skiers. Next season, we'll get to see if many of those AB "regulars" still buy their standalone pass, or just use the 5/7 days on IKON)


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## kingslug (Dec 10, 2019)

We have found that the price pf the plane ticket there has gone through the roof..thats the worst part of this. Prices hit $1000.00 when its good out there. That is insane. I used to just hop on a plane when its dumped..spend 4 days there and head home. Now we make it a 7 day trip and base out of PC..then ski Alta/Bird mid week. A lot of people complain about PC but with 7300 acres I can find interesting terrain and not deal with long lines. Things have changed..so we have changed. Unless BCC and LCC come up with a better plan, its going to get worse..and charging for parking will not help it enough if at all. I've been stuck on the road up to Alta in a storm and its downright scary.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2019)

kingslug said:


> *Unless BCC and LCC come up with a better plan, its going to get worse.*.and charging for parking will not help it enough if at all. I've been stuck on the road up to Alta in a storm and its downright scary.



Build two gondola lines with one terminus between LCC & BCC with a large parking lot.

Depending upon whether you're going to Snowbird (at best) or Brighton (at worst), you're probably looking at something like 17 to 25 minutes with a guesstimated 28 km/h speed.  Note, those aerial times are quite comparable to the landspeed times, so it's not a time burden.

There are two problems with the above, but neither is entirely insurmountable:

1)  It's very expensive, but resorts can chip in, taxpayers can chip in, and you can charge a modest $2 per ride.
2) Eco extremists


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> Build two gondola lines with one terminus between LCC & BCC with a large parking lot.
> 
> Depending upon whether you're going to Snowbird (at best) or Brighton (at worst), you're probably looking at something like 17 to 25 minutes with a guesstimated 28 km/h speed.  Note, those aerial times are quite comparable to the landspeed times, so it's not a time burden.
> 
> ...



Ultra fiscally conservative state + environmentalists = no change with what we have.


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## kingslug (Dec 10, 2019)

Now I wonder if it will eventually drive people away from LCC/BCC. Jackson is easier to get to as well as PC/Canyons. I like Colorado but getting stuck at the airport and the hairy drives over mountain passes keeps me from there. I could probably ski JH forever and not get bored. And I didn't find the crowding too insane last year and it dumped the whole week. Then there is always BC if you really want to get away from it all. Revelstoke was..rather uncrowded when I was there and skied Pow all week.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Ultra fiscally conservative state + environmentalists = no change with what we have.



If the population forecast for doubling in 20 years is accurate, that's a massive problem.   Even without better people-moving strategies, I wonder if the front 4 ski areas will need to enforce maximum capacity limits & turn people away.


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## kingslug (Dec 10, 2019)

Works for Powder Mountain...2000 and thats it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Now I wonder if it will eventually drive people away from LCC/BCC. Jackson is easier to get to as well as PC/Canyons. I like Colorado but getting stuck at the airport and the hairy drives over mountain passes keeps me from there. I could probably ski JH forever and not get bored. And I didn't find the crowding too insane last year and it dumped the whole week. Then there is always BC if you really want to get away from it all. Revelstoke was..rather uncrowded when I was there and skied Pow all week.



The only issue is that anything in Jackson (lodging, food, etc.) is expensive as hell.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> If the population forecast for doubling in 20 years is accurate, that's a massive problem.   Even without better people-moving strategies, I wonder if the front 4 ski areas will need to enforce maximum capacity limits & turn people away.



Maximum limits...rrriiiggghhhtt.  Snowbird would never do that (actually they did on the 4th of July this year to their credit).


----------



## Edd (Dec 10, 2019)

kingslug said:


> We have found that the price pf the plane ticket there has gone through the roof..thats the worst part of this. Prices hit $1000.00 when its good out there. That is insane.



Uh, yeah, that is. I personally prefer CO, Tahoe, and BC to UT for a variety of reasons that are a matter of opinion. Expensive flights would keep me away from there for good.


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## abc (Dec 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> The only issue is that anything in Jackson (lodging, food, etc.) is expensive as hell.


It’s only “expensive” compared to SLC. 

Compared to Colorado (Summit county, never mind Vail/Aspen), Jackson is “cheap”!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

abc said:


> It’s only “expensive” compared to SLC.
> 
> Compared to Colorado (Summit county, never mind Vail/Aspen), Jackson is “cheap”!



It's relative, sure.


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## kingslug (Dec 10, 2019)

Well..this sport of ours ain't cheap. Not if you want to ski the world. I don't care about amenities..don't mind a 2 star hotel and boring food..I just care about the skiing...the Mrs though ..has something to say about that. 
I used to stay in the extended stay hotel in Union park when it was 40 bucks a night...your room might have had a chalk outline in it but whatever..lived on Cliff Bars and 7 Eleven..and the skiing was great and uncrowded...things have changed a bit now..


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## mbedle (Dec 10, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Works for Powder Mountain...2000 and thats it.



actually its 1500 for day passes. How that place makes it work is REAL ESTATE!!!!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2019)

We don’t need to encourage MORE folks to ski our Utah areas with the Ikon pass, Ski Utah:





:roll:


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 10, 2019)

I got that email & was JUST coming here to post that!   Knew you would love it.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I got that email & was JUST coming here to post that!   Knew you would love it.



As you have said, this year is going to be the test for the pass. If it is an average snow season, we shall see if it really is conditions that drive people. However, we’re already now slightly ahead of average so far. It is still pretty early out here but no problems yet with crowding. I still feel that it is an issue of too many people using this too good to be true pass and taking advantage of it at the expense of folks who commit to one mountain.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## drjeff (Dec 11, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> As you have said, this year is going to be the test for the pass. If it is an average snow season, we shall see if it really is conditions that drive people. However, we’re already now slightly ahead of average so far. It is still pretty early out here but no problems yet with crowding. I still feel that it is an issue of too many people using this too good to be true pass and taking advantage of it at the expense of folks who commit to one mountain.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Regardless of how good or not so good weather wise the next 2 weeks leading into the Christmas to New Year's week is, that week, and in particular the Friday the 27th through Monday the 30th long weekend in the middle of it, will really give an idea as to the roll of the mega passes has on crowding as that's when the "less than 10 days a season" mega pass crowd will likely be out in full force in addition to what has been out already this year which is more like the more dedicated 20+ days a year mega pass crowd. My hunch is if some of they formerly day/multi day ticket buying crowd that shows up primarily during Holiday times (and is often getting credits to future days since they tire out after 2 days and don't want to ski that 3rd or 4th day) are now on the mega passes, they may be more likely to go out for few more days during a Holiday week, but just for less hours each day, and then hence more folks on the hill each day.... 

Guess we'll find out in a few weeks

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## FBGM (Dec 12, 2019)

Just want to let every known that this still makes skiing cheaper. Do I need some picture graphs and colorful shapes and lines? Derp derp


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## trackbiker (Dec 12, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Just want to let every known that this still makes skiing cheaper. Do I need some picture graphs and colorful shapes and lines? Derp derp



Maybe. But does it make it better?
And when the independent areas go under, do they then jack the rates?


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## abc (Dec 12, 2019)

FBGM said:


> Just want to let every known that this still makes skiing cheaper.





trackbiker said:


> Maybe. But does it make it better?


A Yugo is "cheaper" than a Corolla. 

If the skiing experience remain the same, it's cheaper. 

If the skiing experience is worse, it simply means a lower price for a different product. 

Just because it's the same mountain doesn't make it the same. A McDonald in the same building that used to be a steak house will cost you less. But will you still go there?

Having said that, I think it's still too early to tell.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2019)

abc said:


> I think* it's still too early to tell*.




It really isn't.  You're conflating the ski experience (which is a valid concern), which the price of skiing.

If we merely focus on price:

For avid skiers, it makes skiing cheaper.  
For the average skier as defined per NSAA data, it makes skiing more expensive.


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## abc (Dec 12, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> It really isn't.  You're conflating the ski experience (which is a valid concern), which the price of skiing.


I'm not "conflating" the two. 

One is the price, the other is the product. They have an inherent correlation. 

You can't "conflate" the price of a burger and the taste of them. In fact, I think there's some "conflating" when you compare the price of two things that aren't the same, and say the inferior one is "cheaper".

Unless, you're only interested in "having" it but not really care about actually enjoying it.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 12, 2019)

abc said:


> *I'm not "conflating" the two. *
> 
> *One is* the *price*, *the other is the product. *



I mean, combining things rather than separating them is literally the definition of conflation.


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## abc (Dec 12, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I mean, combining things rather than separating them is literally the definition of conflation.


There's a difference between "combining" with "correlating". 

When two things are correlated, they need to be look at together, not separately. 

We have opposite understanding of the concept. I don't see any benefit of taking this any further. Shall we agree to disagree?


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## thetrailboss (Dec 13, 2019)

That paid parking at Solitude is working out really well....




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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2019)

Thats the paid parking area???
Havent been there in years


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## abc (Dec 14, 2019)

I believe trailboss was being ironic. 

Everybody park on the shoulder instead of paying to park in the lot. 

I’m so glad I didn’t get Ikon for the 19/20 season. Give them a year to sort out the madness.


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2019)

Figured that..looks like a bit of a walk...wish i was there now though..hearing good reports


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## nhskier1969 (Dec 14, 2019)

kingslug said:


> Figured that..looks like a bit of a walk...wish i was there now though..hearing good reports



I can't comment on Parking situations in Utah, but I know that is a huge issue for the I70 resorts in Colorado.  I am currently out here now, take a look at my pics on the trip board.  Every mtn charges for parking on the I70 resorts, they encourage skiers/boarders to take buses out of Denver.  every ski area is run by either Ikon or Epic. 
My family were long time season pass holders.  We changed to the Ikon pass this year.  I like the fact you can ski my different ski areas instead of skiing the same runs over and over every season at the same resort.


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## machski (Dec 14, 2019)

nhskier1969 said:


> I can't comment on Parking situations in Utah, but I know that is a huge issue for the I70 resorts in Colorado.  I am currently out here now, take a look at my pics on the trip board.  Every mtn charges for parking on the I70 resorts, they encourage skiers/boarders to take buses out of Denver.  every ski area is run by either Ikon or Epic.
> My family were long time season pass holders.  We changed to the Ikon pass this year.  I like the fact you can ski my different ski areas instead of skiing the same runs over and over every season at the same resort.


That is not true, skied Copper last Friday and we did not pay to park.  In fact they have several free skier lots.  All require a shuttle bus to the slopes, but the shuttle buses ran frequently and were rather nice.  I know they do have pay lots closer to lift bases, but it wasn't mandatory.  Vail, now that's a different story.  Least expensive option I heard from locals was to park in Minturn and take the $8 bus.

In Solitude's case, all their actual parking lots are fee lots this season.  This the access road situation.  Utah will have to do what NH did this summer in Franconia Notch and cone/rope prohibit parking on the road.

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## jimk (Dec 14, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> That paid parking at Solitude is working out really well....
> 
> View attachment 25823
> 
> ...



Ouch.  I parked out there on the street (Big Cottonwood Canyon Rd) last April for Solitude's closing day when it was real crowded.  That was the only day I skied Solitude last year.  Not too bad a walk from where I was, but I understand parking continues to be a problem at Soli this year.  I guess that's because it's the only unlimited mtn in UT on IKON and it must really be attracting a lot of people, both locals and visitors?
I ski Snowbird a lot and can still get convenient, free parking there almost every time.  There were a couple powder Saturdays last winter when I decided not to go up to Snowbird in the morning because traffic was terrible.  There was one snowy weekday when I left at 1:30 in the early afternoon to avoid an expected downhill traffic jam at 430PM.  I still favor free parking in LCC, but can see that paid parking there may be in the cards for the future.  The problem is that the UTA buses don't have the capacity to take tons of additional riders for a cheap transport up BCC and/or LCC.


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## jimk (Dec 14, 2019)

machski said:


> That is not true, skied Copper last Friday and we did not pay to park.  In fact they have several free skier lots.  All require a shuttle bus to the slopes, but the shuttle buses ran frequently and were rather nice.  I know they do have pay lots closer to lift bases, but it wasn't mandatory.  Vail, now that's a different story.  Least expensive option I heard from locals was to park in Minturn and take the $8 bus.
> 
> In Solitude's case, all their actual parking lots are fee lots this season.  This the access road situation.  Utah will have to do what NH did this summer in Franconia Notch and cone/rope prohibit parking on the road.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Pretty sure Keystone still has free parking.  And I thought there were a few free places at Vail such as Frontage road on the other side of I70.  Breck has the free airport parking lot.  A-Basin is free.  Isn't Mary Jane parking free?  And outer lots at Winter Park?  Free parking at Aspen too, it's just at many of these places you have to park far away for free and ride a shuttle to lifts.


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2019)

Well..one way to beat the parking and drive up lcc is to stay up there...unfortunately its a bit expensive..but may be worth it...i can stay for free at several friends houses but this recent insanity may force me to pay...
A trip to Altabird is going to cost a lot now..
Yup..another first world problem


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## abc (Dec 14, 2019)

kingslug said:


> A trip to Altabird is going to cost a lot now..


The drive up to the cottonwoods has always been an issue. 

But the parking at Solitude is new, and clearly related to Ikon.


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2019)

Ive been going there for 20 years and while the road was always a little nuts its clearly worse now.
Getting up was usualy ok..after a storm or during one was another matter..


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## Edd (Dec 14, 2019)

Are weekday crowds also bad? Anyone know?


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## machski (Dec 14, 2019)

Edd said:


> Are weekday crowds also bad? Anyone know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


They were not last February.

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## abc (Dec 14, 2019)

Powder days and weekends


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## JimG. (Dec 14, 2019)

Where is BG with another witty Iraqi general meme?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 14, 2019)

we are doing a ~10 ski day utah trip in feb and we have a check in sunday check out wednesday snowbird lodge at the base of snowbird situation for part of the trip. hoping for huge dumps overnight while we sleep at the base. we're less than a mile from the base of solitude in a cabin for thursday - saturday, then about 10 miles from powmow from saturday - monday.


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## Smellytele (Dec 14, 2019)

jimk said:


> Pretty sure Keystone still has free parking.  And I thought there were a few free places at Vail such as Frontage road on the other side of I70.  Breck has the free airport parking lot.  A-Basin is free.  Isn't Mary Jane parking free?  And outer lots at Winter Park?  Free parking at Aspen too, it's just at many of these places you have to park far away for free and ride a shuttle to lifts.



Loveland I thought had free parking too. I believe a couple of years ago I had some free parking at Beaver creek too.


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## jimk (Dec 14, 2019)

abc said:


> Powder days and weekends





Edd said:


> Are weekday crowds also bad? Anyone know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Weekday free parking at Snowbird is usually fine unless more than 6" new snow, then can be busy.  Weekends without new snow are often fine except in the heart of the season when conditions are primo.  Weekends with new snow are getting pretty bad, if more than 1 foot new they can be real bad with road closures, big back ups, avi mitigation, etc.  



KustyTheKlown said:


> we are doing a ~10 ski day utah trip in feb and we have a check in sunday check out wednesday snowbird lodge at the base of snowbird situation for part of the trip. hoping for huge dumps overnight while we sleep at the base. we're less than a mile from the base of solitude in a cabin for thursday - saturday, then about 10 miles from powmow from saturday - monday.


You should be good.  Have a nice time.  I hope to be skiing the Bird most of Feb.


Smellytele said:


> Loveland I thought had free parking too. I believe a couple of years ago I had some free parking at Beaver creek too.


You are correct, free at Loveland AFAIK.  Most of BC went pay-parking last season, but I know one last slopeside free lot.  Actually, now that I think about it, I'm not sure there is any ski area with absolutely no free parking. Anybody?  Even Solitude has street parking on Big Cottonwood Drive, although it sounds like you have to get there early now to get halfway close to base area.


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## kingslug (Dec 14, 2019)

This is why we go to PC as a base..yrs tge epic pass is a big factor..but 7300 acres is also a big factor..that and no crazy canyon drive...PC...gets snow..and they have steeps..jupiter peak is a 45 degree drop and an easy climb..other areas have plenty of vertical..i prefer more runs and less crowds now..altabird..midweek


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2019)

abc said:


> I believe trailboss was being ironic.
> 
> Everybody park on the shoulder instead of paying to park in the lot.



Exactly.  How Alterra fix the crowding problem at Solitude?  By dumping it on the rest of us.  These are folks who don't want to pay to park and are on the side of Utah 190 causing a real safety issue, especially in weather.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 14, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> *How Alterra fix the crowding problem at Solitude?  By dumping it on the rest of us.*  These are folks who don't want to pay to park and are on the side of Utah 190 causing a real safety issue, especially in weather.



The best part was only announcing the not-insignificant fee *after* everyone had paid in full for their non-refundable season passes.  LOL.

The second best part is they're trying to pawn it off as being done for the environment, though reading the FB announcement, there were some people stupid enough to actually believe that.


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## Cornhead (Dec 15, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> not-insignificant



I believe the word is significant, irregardless [emoji6], are you sure this isn't Platty's access road? Oh, wait, I think they park on both sides there. I think they got rid of the $10 parking in the lot near the lodge at Gore. 

As far as all this consolidation goes, I'm not a fan. Now if Greek sells to one, and Elk sells to the other, I might change my tune. If that were to happen, I'd alternate between Epic and Ikon. I am happy that Greek is now a Freedom Pass member. I ask everyone with a season pass at Greek if they are aware. Most aren't, Greek doesn't really advertise the perk, and Greek still isn't listed as a mountain on the Freedom Pass website. Hopefully there won't be a hassle trying to redeem. Of the three east coast mountains, Bolton Valley, Magic, and Plattekill, from past experience I know where to anticipate a hassle, Platty.


For any other Freedom Pass members here, don't expect to be comped at Platty on a "Powderdaize", I was denied after Stella as a Freedom Pass member. Apparently Laszlo doesn't know the meaning of unrestricted. He claimed it was a "special day", not normally open.

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## thetrailboss (Dec 21, 2019)

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2019/12/21/if-gondola-someday/comments/#twt-comments


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