# Vail to buy Stowe?



## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2017)

Saw this rumor posted on pugski today.

Now in the Stowe Reporter......

http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_rep...cle_e8000d8a-e34a-11e6-b79e-c34287592cba.html

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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2017)

If I was a Stowe pass holder and the intention was to include Stowe on the Epic pass, I'd be pissed.  I can't even imagine how crowded Stowe would get with that cheap of a season pass. 

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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2017)

Hmmm.....................


That would be a big move for Vail and their grand entrance into the eastern ski scene.  It would also show that they want to play ball on the east coast and not merely have a feeder to their western resorts.  This was also interesting:



> However, a person in Vail’s corporate office said Tuesday that the company was preparing a press release regarding the deal. That press release was not available by Wednesday afternoon, when this paper went to press.


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## snoseek (Jan 25, 2017)

Wow if this happens!

Also wouldn't they love to get ahold of smuggs.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 25, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Wow if this happens!
> 
> Also wouldn't they love to get ahold of smuggs.



Would they?

And why wow if this happens?

Stowe is already pretty "nice" and the ticket prices are already pretty maxed out, not sure how Vail would improve this situation.

I'd hate to see Smuggs turn into anything but what it already is.


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## Zermatt (Jan 25, 2017)

What if they interconnected with Smugglers Notch?


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 25, 2017)

billo said:


> What if they interconnected with Smugglers Notch?



no no no no no no no no no


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2017)

Smuggs makes that deal very interesting.  The connector would not have to be that long 2300 feet or so.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 25, 2017)

I skied the connector 20 years ago... it's cross country skiing. Why would you waste your day going to Smuggs when you're at Stowe or vice versa?

Like is there any valid reason to switch from one to the other half way through the day, and then XC ski back a fairly good distance later?

Stowe is one thing. Smuggs is another. Both are great in their own way. Smuggs is better because it is not Stowe.

Smuggs does not have the lift capacity to even deal with their own crowds on good days. If Vail buys Smuggs, they put in new lifts. Smuggs then turns into Jay Peak with less snow.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2017)

billo said:


> What if they interconnected with Smugglers Notch?



Through a hostile takeover?  That sounds like *de ja vu all over again!*


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2017)

billo said:


> What if they interconnected with Smugglers Notch?



Through a hostile takeover?  That sounds like *de ja vu all over again!*


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## 2Planker (Jan 25, 2017)

I heard this about 4 months ago from  a 20 year Stowe mgmt personnel



deadheadskier said:


> Saw this rumor posted on pugski today.
> 
> Now in the Stowe Reporter......
> 
> ...


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> I skied the connector 20 years ago... it's cross country skiing. Why would you waste your day going to Smuggs when you're at Stowe or vice versa?



Lift


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## x10003q (Jan 25, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> I skied the connector 20 years ago... it's cross country skiing. Why would you waste your day going to Smuggs when you're at Stowe or vice versa?
> 
> Like is there any valid reason to switch from one to the other half way through the day, and then XC ski back a fairly good distance later?
> 
> ...



A 2600 foot 2 way FGQ would solve the  x-country skiing problem.;-)


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 25, 2017)

> *a person in Vail’s corporate office said Tuesday that the company was preparing a press release regarding the deal. That press release was not available by Wednesday afternoon, *when this paper went to press.



I call total BS on the entire story solely based on the above sentence.  

Unless it's a 1-sentence PR that states, _"it is Vail's policy to not discuss future deals"_ or the PR specifically denies the story.  Even then, I find it difficult to believe the _"person in Vail's corporate office"_ would even comment as he/she should know better.  Maybe it was a college intern, lol.



dlague said:


> Smuggs makes that deal very interesting. * The connector would not have to be that long 2300 feet or so.*



No connector needed, you just ski over Sterling Pond.



bdfreetuna said:


> I skied the connector 20 years ago... it's cross country skiing. *Why would you waste your day going to Smuggs when you're at Stowe or vice versa?*
> 
> *Like is there any valid reason to switch from one to the other half way through the day*, and then XC ski back a fairly good distance later?



I have no idea what you're talking about, I did it ALL the time when I worked at Stowe and had a Smuggs season pass.    It. Was.  Awesome.

And if you have any XC-skating ability whatsoever, it's not that bad.


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## machski (Jan 25, 2017)

Hmm, an interconnect.  You do realize you are discussing this in Vermont and in a wilderness and wildlife area of a state that likes to protect such things.  If Vail were buying both, o don't think even they could get that pushed through.


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## chuckstah (Jan 25, 2017)

machski said:


> Hmm, an interconnect.  You do realize you are discussing this in Vermont and in a wilderness and wildlife area of a state that likes to protect such things.  If Vail were buying both, o don't think even they could get that pushed through.


It's already there. Was on the maps of both resorts for years.  Only issue is that there is not common ownership of the two resorts. As far as I know. 

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## deadheadskier (Jan 25, 2017)

I'm with BG. They used to allow reciprocal one ride up tickets on Sterling and Big Spruce for those who ventured over.  If you had a season pass you just went to the lodge at Smuggs and they'd give you a one up ticket they'd collect at the lift. If you had a Stowe day ticket, the lifty would hole punch it. Worked the same way in reverse.  2000-2001 we would start almost every day at Big Spruce and do a lap down to the birthday bowls sometimes sneaking a few laps on Sterling before heading back over. The skate was maybe ten minutes back to Spruce across the pond. Loved it.

Having that kind of a relationship between the two areas again would be great. A full interconnect? No thanks. There was a time I was all for an interconnect. It would be by far the biggest ski area in the east measuring by boundary to boundary acreage.  I've since grown to respect the differences between the two areas and hope they remain separate just like Killington and Pico. 

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## farlep99 (Jan 25, 2017)

Vail corporate folks were at Stowe all summer. That's when the rumors started. Then they died down & this past weekend it flared again because serious Vail bigwigs were back. I have it on pretty good authority that the deal is done. It was a "you didn't hear this from me" situation so make of that what you will. But this is a very well connected money guy who said the deal was in the 300-400mil range


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## ss20 (Jan 25, 2017)

Here's my insider knowledge- a Vail executive coined me in on a conceptual picture of Alpinezone approximately 10 seconds after Vail buys Stowe...


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## thetrailboss (Jan 25, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> Vail corporate folks were at Stowe all summer. That's when the rumors started. Then they died down & this past weekend it flared again because serious Vail bigwigs were back. I have it on pretty good authority that the deal is done. It was a "you didn't hear this from me" situation so make of that what you will. But this is a very well connected money guy who said the deal was in the 300-400mil range



It would be a way for the remnants of AIG to cash out and leave the business. Though Mr. Starr would be rolling in his grave.

It would also spell an end to Stowe's Mountain Collective membership.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm with BG. They used to allow reciprocal one ride up tickets on Sterling and Big Spruce for those who ventured over.  If you had a season pass you just went to the lodge at Smuggs and they'd give you a one up ticket they'd collect at the lift. If you had a Stowe day ticket, the lifty would hole punch it. Worked the same way in reverse.  2000-2001 we would start almost every day at Big Spruce and do a lap down to the birthday bowls sometimes sneaking a few laps on Sterling before heading back over. The skate was maybe ten minutes back to Spruce across the pond. Loved it.



This makes the most sense. People who want to ski backcountry and end up at the other resort's base should be able to lift their way back without cost or hassle. Why not?

But a full interconnect, I agree along the same  lines as K and Pico analogy.


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## benski (Jan 25, 2017)

Vail should be broken up. The extra competition would help bring down lift ticket prices. I doubt there are many benefits to such large scale operations for ski areas. 

As for the interconnect idea. The lift would be slightly shorter than the Breckinridge Peek 6 connector lift so I guess it would be reasonable by there standards.


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> It would be a way for the remnants of AIG to cash out and leave the business. Though Mr. Starr would be rolling in his grave.
> 
> It would also spell an end to Stowe's Mountain Collective membership.


Pretty sure that the mountain collective pass losing Stowe is not a big deal.  Losing 2 days of skiing in the east. I never found MC Pass to be attractive.

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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2017)

benski said:


> Vail should be broken up. The extra competition would help bring down lift ticket prices. I doubt there are many benefits to such large scale operations for ski areas.



Not sure I agree. Their walk up ticket prices may be high, but their Epic pass options are hard to beat for people interested in skiing the resorts in Vail's portfolio.


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Not sure I agree. Their walk up ticket prices may be high, but their Epic pass options are hard to beat for people interested in skiing the resorts in Vail's portfolio.


They sell a boat load of passes and breaking it up probably would jeopardize that.

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## Jully (Jan 25, 2017)

benski said:


> Vail should be broken up. The extra competition would help bring down lift ticket prices. I doubt there are many benefits to such large scale operations for ski areas.
> 
> As for the interconnect idea. The lift would be slightly shorter than the Breckinridge Peek 6 connector lift so I guess it would be reasonable by there standards.



Vail is by far the most efficient resort operator in North America IMO. They've proven there are VAST benefits to large scale market share and management. Why do you think there aren't benefits?


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## Jully (Jan 25, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Here's my insider knowledge- a Vail executive coined me in on a conceptual picture of Alpinezone approximately 10 seconds after Vail buys Stowe...
> 
> View attachment 21630



Hah!!


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## SnowRock (Jan 25, 2017)

dlague said:


> Pretty sure that the mountain collective pass losing Stowe is not a big deal.  Losing 2 days of skiing in the east. I never found MC Pass to be attractive.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Wouldn't be too sure of that. It was the tipping point for me to purchase it when they added Stowe and I personally know a few folks who did the same. To have a mountain part of that pass that I could drive too and already hit about 10 times a year made it a no brainer. I'm sure there are others like me that made the purchase when they added Stowe. 

Don't love the idea of a vail purchase... having been up there between Christmas and New Years it seemed like the road/parking infrastructure was maxed out this year. Hadn't seen anything like it before in all my years going up there since I was in high school... would imagine with the epic pass you would add to that crowd.


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## benski (Jan 25, 2017)

Jully said:


> Vail is by far the most efficient resort operator in North America IMO. They've proven there are VAST benefits to large scale market share and management. Why do you think there aren't benefits?


Diseconomies of scale. Unless you want to use market share to increase prices I don't see many benefits since not much can be centralized.


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2017)

benski said:


> Diseconomies of scale. Unless you want to use market share to increase prices I don't see many benefits since not much can be centralized.


What benefits are we talking about?  I love our benefits.  $609 and we have access to a lot of great mountains including Whistler, Park City, Tahoe and the resorts in Colorado.  Practically unlimited.

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## benski (Jan 25, 2017)

dlague said:


> What benefits are we talking about?  I love our benefits.  $609 and we have access to a lot of great mountains including Whistler, Park City, Tahoe and the resorts in Colorado.  Practically unlimited.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


Don't you have the Mountain Collective, and Max passes too for mountain owned by different operatores along with smaller local deals like Solitude and Brighton. But i am shocked to here its that cheep. Its not for sale so i can't see the price on there website.


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## cdskier (Jan 25, 2017)

benski said:


> Don't you have the Mountain Collective, and Max passes too for mountain owned by different operatores along with smaller local deals like Solitude and Brighton. But i am shocked to here its that cheep. Its not for sale so i can't see the price on there website.



The regular Epic Pass was $809 I believe at the early price. Don't believe that one had any restrictions on their US resorts. The Epic pass sales do incredible volume, although I believe the thought is that many of the passes are not used for tons of days (i.e. some easterners buy them and only take a few trips out west, which still is enough to cover the cost of the pass). But Vail also counts on people spending money on lodging, food, etc as part of their business model.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2017)

The chicken hasn't hatched yet, but where are all of the people who have always insisted that Vail would never buy a resort in the northeast?  I've seen many such posts here.


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## 4aprice (Jan 26, 2017)

I had heard a rumor that Vail was looking into buying Stratton, so maybe there is more interest in the east then previously thought.

A couple of areas in the east might cause me to look into it.  What I wonder is will moves (or potential moves) like this force some of the "independents" (Smuggs, Bush, Jay etc) to team up for survival?   Like I said in the Max Pass thread, I'm loving my season so far and planned the whole thing around those options.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## ss20 (Jan 26, 2017)

benski said:


> Vail should be broken up. The extra competition would help bring down lift ticket prices. I doubt there are many benefits to such large scale operations for ski areas.



The Epic Pass is the reason why we have inexpensive multi-mountain passes.  Very beneficial for the consumer.


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## tumbler (Jan 26, 2017)

4aprice said:


> I had heard a rumor that Vail was looking into buying Stratton, so maybe there is more interest in the east then previously thought.
> 
> A couple of areas in the east might cause me to look into it.  What I wonder is will moves (or potential moves) like this force some of the "independents" (Smuggs, Bush, Jay etc) to team up for survival?   Like I said in the Max Pass thread, I'm loving my season so far and planned the whole thing around those options.
> 
> ...



I dont think Vail owning Stowe and/or Stratton is going to put anyone out of business.  There are only so many beds, parking and so much uphill capacity that either of them can handle.  If anything the potential overcrowding of the ski vacation experience will drive people to other mountains.


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

benski said:


> Diseconomies of scale. Unless you want to use market share to increase prices I don't see many benefits since not much can be centralized.



Right, because centralization is the only possible benefit of large scale operations like Vail...


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I dont think Vail owning Stowe and/or Stratton is going to put anyone out of business.  There are only so many beds, parking and so much uphill capacity that either of them can handle.  If anything the potential overcrowding of the ski vacation experience will drive people to other mountains.



I mean, someone's gotta be there doing the overcrowding though!!

I wonder if it would drive easterners to take more western vacations similar to how the Texas family takes 2 ski trips instead of one with the Epic pass because the lift tickets are already paid for.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The chicken hasn't hatched yet, but where are all of the people who have always insisted that Vail would never buy a resort in the northeast?  I've seen many such posts here.



I never had a serious opinion one way or the other until reading Ski, Inc recently. When I read Chris Diamond say he believed Vail would eventually look to enter the northeastern market, I thought someone with his insider knowledge and experience probably had a better grasp of things than people on this board saying they never would.


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## farlep99 (Jan 26, 2017)

My single concern about the purchase is the overcrowding.  On the Friday before New Years it took some people 1.5hr to get up to the hill & then when they got there they couldn't find parking.  Unacceptable at any area let alone one charging $100+ for a day ticket.  The high prices of both day tickets and seasons passes tend to keep the crowds manageable for most of the season for the most part (other than the parking situation, which is atrocious).  MLK Saturday was very busy, but lines were no longer than about 10-15min.  Epic pass could blow that up.

In saying this, it would be nice to be able to afford to ski at my closest mountain.  Even the locals' pass is $1300+.  And there are blackout days.  For slightly less than a Stowe black-out local pass, you can get an unlimited Smuggs AND an unlimited MRG pass.  That's just stupid.  Yet somehow, people justify the Stowe costs.  I just don't see the value in their pass options. But for $809 though I think I'd make it work.  I'd just avoid Saturdays which I pretty much already do


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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

benski said:


> Don't you have the Mountain Collective, and Max passes too for mountain owned by different operatores along with smaller local deals like Solitude and Brighton. But i am shocked to here its that cheep. Its not for sale so i can't see the price on there website.


None of the other passes.  $609 was the before April 1st price for Epic Local.  We were in the middle of moving and my wife snagged them at the last minute.  We also use the Gems Card which I would this would be a great partner for The Ride and Ski Card.

Back on topic, if Vail buys Stowe, it is more of a reach to increase visits to western resorts with a nice offering for those they would attract to buy the pass from the east.  With their pass pricing it would really stir up the apple cart.  I do not really see a lot of Colorado folks taking vacations to ski Stowe.  I would but that is because I am visiting family so I would consider catching a day while there.

Some of the Midwest ski areas might travel to Stowe for vacations as well.

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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

We're jumping to conclusions a bit that Vail would simply add Stowe to the Epic pass at the current price if the deal rumors are true. Maybe they would put Stowe on the Epic pass but with restrictions on number of days. Or maybe they would up the price of Epic (although even doing that it would still surely be significantly cheaper than the current Stowe pass). Or maybe they would keep Stowe separate and offer Stowe pass-holders an "Epic Add-On" type of option for an extra cost.

I do agree though that if they simply added it to Epic that could certainly have an impact to Stowe's skier visits. How big the impact would be is hard to predict.


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## benski (Jan 26, 2017)

4aprice said:


> I had heard a rumor that Vail was looking into buying Stratton, so maybe there is more interest in the east then previously thought.
> 
> A couple of areas in the east might cause me to look into it.  What I wonder is will moves (or potential moves) like this force some of the "independents" (Smuggs, Bush, Jay etc) to team up for survival?   Like I said in the Max Pass thread, I'm loving my season so far and planned the whole thing around those options.
> 
> ...



Seems like a smart move. Sugarbush and Mad River so I guess thats not so unlikely. Sugarbush would need to drop there pass prices to compete with an epic pass, probably to below what a Stowe pass is.


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## MG Skier (Jan 26, 2017)

......The Balsams and an eventual buyer for Jay/Burke...things may look/feel a little different out this way in the East. 
Are we still Skiing the East if it is all owned by the West?


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## farlep99 (Jan 26, 2017)

cdskier said:


> We're jumping to conclusions a bit that Vail would simply add Stowe to the Epic pass at the current price if the deal rumors are true. Maybe they would put Stowe on the Epic pass but with restrictions on number of days. Or maybe they would up the price of Epic (although even doing that it would still surely be significantly cheaper than the current Stowe pass). Or maybe they would keep Stowe separate and offer Stowe pass-holders an "Epic Add-On" type of option for an extra cost.
> 
> I do agree though that if they simply added it to Epic that could certainly have an impact to Stowe's skier visits. How big the impact would be is hard to predict.



I initially thought the same thing- that they probably wouldn't add Stowe to Epic.  Why would you if you already have a base of customers paying $1300-$1900 for a pass.  The first thing I did is look what they did with their recent Whistler purchase.  I believe the Whistler unlimited pass was $1,650.  They're adding them to Epic.  I think for this year they didn't because I don't think Vail closed that deal until the fall (or maybe late summer??).  But they'll be added for next season.  So if they're doing that with Whistler I'd think the same may apply to Stowe.  Not a definite, but seems likely.  Of course, they may raise the price of the Epic pass as well.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 26, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> My single concern about the purchase is the overcrowding.  On the Friday before New Years it took some people 1.5hr to get up to the hill & then when they got there they couldn't find parking.  Unacceptable at any area let alone one charging $100+ for a day ticket.  The high prices of both day tickets and seasons passes tend to keep the crowds manageable for most of the season for the most part (other than the parking situation, which is atrocious).  MLK Saturday was very busy, but lines were no longer than about 10-15min.  Epic pass could blow that up.



I gotta assume Vail would have planned a way to mitigate that. My guess would be to use Toll House, stick a new parking lot/garage down there and run a six pack up the hill.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

benski said:


> Seems like a smart move. Sugarbush and Mad River so I guess thats not so unlikely. Sugarbush would need to drop there pass prices to compete with an epic pass, probably to below what a Stowe pass is.



I don't necessarily agree that they "need" to drop their pass prices to compete with Epic. Sugarbush has a lot of tiered pricing depending on your age. For anyone under 35 or over 65, Sugarbush's pass prices (at the early rates) were still lower than the Epic pass. That 36-64 range is something Sugarbush would need to look closely at before simply dropping the price. You also have to consider what K does as right now SB and K are very close in price at their early rates for that age range so Stowe isn't their only comparable. There are still a lot of people that would buy the SB pass even if they don't drop the price. I could see SB either simply holding the price at this year's level or dropping it slightly (say $100). But I think it is highly unlikely they would drop it to the point of trying to directly compete with Epic at least the first year. If SB saw a significant drop off in sales, then maybe the year after they would lower the price more.

And of course we still don't know whether the deal is even real or what pricing strategy Vail would use for including Stowe on the pass. They could surprise people and throw a curve-ball and change their Epic pass structure a bit. Lot's of speculation with little facts at this point.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 26, 2017)

tumbler said:


> I dont think Vail owning Stowe and/or Stratton is going to put anyone out of business.  There are only so many beds, parking and so much uphill capacity that either of them can handle.  If anything the potential overcrowding of the ski vacation experience will drive people to other mountains.



I disagree.  I am a season pass holder at SB.  I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass.   There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west.  In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2017)

Keelhauled said:


> I gotta assume Vail would have planned a way to mitigate that. My guess would be to use Toll House, stick a new parking lot/garage down there and run a six pack up the hill.



That certainly could help with resort arrival.

On hill, I'd have to imagine the Mountain Triple gets upgraded to a HSQ at minimum.  Crowding on hill would still be insane with a cheap pass without a lot more than just lift upgrades for Toll House and the Triple.  Additional uphill and downhill capacity would have to happen or the weekend ski experience would become completely awful.

Here's a look at the original plan from 2000 with the addition of several lifts, trails and a lot of widening.  Note the supersizing of Lookout and Chin Clip.  What a travesty that would be after already neutering the Lift Line, National and Nose Dive decades ago. 

Also of relevance to this thread, when this plan was put together you can still see the connector trail coming over from Smuggs. 

http://segroup.com/projects/stowe-mountain-resort/


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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

BTW Whistler is already part of both the Epic and Epic Local Passes.  I could go there today!  They added to the passes with no up charge or anything.  Also if they do pick up Stowe I guarantee it will be part of their passes - that is what they do.  And just because they by Stowe they would not significant increase the pass price.  That thought is too funny.  There will not be an add-on either.  They bought Whistler and did not do that so Stowe will not cause that either.

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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I disagree.  I am a season pass holder at SB.  I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass.   There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west.  In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
> But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG


That would be their plan to get more New Englanders to buy the pass for a local hill and many would now consider all the other destinations.  Whistler, Colorado, Utah, Tahoe.  Not seeing this the other way around.

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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

Just look at other mountains out west, they do not have pass prices equally as low as Vail's, especially in areas where Vail's presence isn't as big (i.e. Utah). 

I do think another big pull is that the Vail name means a lot to the 3-5 day/year skier. They would be drawn to that name a product even more than they might be drawn to the Stowe name alone.

I'd be worried that Stowe would lose some of its character and become even more upscale than it already is. High speed lifts everywhere would make it ski a lot different than it currently does despite having a multitude of HSQs already. I just hope they wouldn't widen or touch the front 4 in an effort to increase capacity or something.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2017)

dlague said:


> BTW Whistler is already part of both the Epic and Epic Local Passes.  I could go there today!  They added to the passes with no up charge or anything.  Also if they do pick up Stowe I guarantee it will be part of their passes - that is what they do.  And just because they by Stowe they would not significant increase the pass price.  That thought is too funny.  There will not be an add-on either.  They bought Whistler and did not do that so Stowe will not cause that either.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Not really an apples to apples comparison between Stowe and Whistler.  Whistler is the largest resort in North America.  They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business.  Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe.  Perhaps the Epic Pass only includes Stowe midweek.  If you want to ski Stowe on the weekends, it's another $500 or something in that neighborhood.  That would still represent a significant savings over current pricing at Stowe and offer the benefit of out west destinations on the pass.  $1309 also wouldn't be so cheap that people would start jumping over from Sugarbush, Jay, Smuggs etc.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 26, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I disagree.  I am a season pass holder at SB.  I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass.   There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west.  In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
> But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG



*Totally agree with this assessment *


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business.  Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe.



Do you think Vail realizes that or cares though? I think about the crowds that I've heard of at Vail itself, their day with 50,000 skier visits or whatever it was. Is that not beyond capacity (not sure what their on hill crowding looked like)?


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## snoseek (Jan 26, 2017)

I don't personally think stowe would be alone. I bet they pick up something else as well to go along with it. There's alot of potential real estate up for purchase in new England right now. If they move in they will set up shop and compete.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Not really an apples to apples comparison between Stowe and Whistler.  Whistler is the largest resort in North America.  They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business.  Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe.  Perhaps the Epic Pass only includes Stowe midweek.  If you want to ski Stowe on the weekends, it's another $500 or something in that neighborhood.  That would still represent a significant savings over current pricing at Stowe and offer the benefit of out west destinations on the pass.  $1309 also wouldn't be so cheap that people would start jumping over from Sugarbush, Jay, Smuggs etc.



That was my thinking as well. Just because they did it with Whistler doesn't mean they would automatically do it with Stowe. Could they? Sure, but like you said they also could go with a lot of other options. It is way too premature to assume we know anything about what they will "definitely" do just because they did things that way in the past or with other acquisitions. An eastern resort is a whole new ball-game for Vail as far as I'm concerned.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> Do you think Vail realizes that or cares though? I think about the crowds that I've heard of at Vail itself, their day with 50,000 skier visits or whatever it was. Is that not beyond capacity (not sure what their on hill crowding looked like)?



Well, Vail has an uphill capacity of 50K people and can spread them over 5000+ acres.  Stowe has an uphill capacity of 15K people spread over 500 acres.  Pretty certain busiest days of the season at Stowe top 10K.  So, the skier density on the trails at Stowe on busy days is nightmarish compared to Vail.   Would Vail care?  Maybe. Considering there are other options like the MAXX and Mountain Collective passes they might.  Speaking for myself, I'd spend more money to go MAXX pass add on if my home Northeastern mountain was still manageable than go with the Epic on the cheap and deal with a total madhouse every weekend at Stowe that price likely causes.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2017)

As far as pricing is concerned, Vail is not going to run Stowe as an island.  The whole point is to drive business out west.  So whatever the pass price may be, I am confident that Vail will want to sell as many passes as possible in order to get as many people as possible taking a trip out west.


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## from_the_NEK (Jan 26, 2017)

Keelhauled said:


> I gotta assume Vail would have planned a way to mitigate that. My guess would be to use Toll House, stick a new parking lot/garage down there and run a six pack up the hill.



I can't find anywhere that a new parking lot of significant size could be put in near the Toll House. IMHO, they would have to build a 7 story parking garage where the tennis courts are to have enough parking spaces to make an impact there.

I think adding a partial deck over the main lot would be more effective (see Jay Peak's main lot) and more likely to get environmental approval.


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## SnowRock (Jan 26, 2017)

I heard the Friday before New Years was a just under 10K day for Stowe. While the road/parking and even dining infrastructure was stretched to capacity, on hill I didn't think the density was that bad, in fact as someone that has to scratch my itch at a place like Hunter or Camelback on the occasional weekend I never feel the on hill density at Stowe is that bad. That said... adding more high speed lifts or additional parking down at toll rd would definitely impact how the mountain skis. Widening something like chin clip would be a travesty. Also wondering if additional parking really alleviate the mountain road traffic issue? Leaving was equally as bad New Years weekend for those that didn't leave a bit early.


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## ghughes20 (Jan 26, 2017)

I've also heard rumors about Vail looking at Stratton.  I've been going to Stratton pretty regularly over the last few seasons, and have been following the Intrawest stock price.  It's up considerably over the last year.  (From approx 7.5 to over 20).  That run hasn't been fueled by growing revenues but there has been some improvement in their bottom line.  Still, I suspect the market expects some consolidation.  I'm curious if Intrawest is looking to unload more properties.

http://finance.yahoo.com/m/4bc63f1b-4a78-3c5a-b0d7-e021cd83bb60/ss_intrawest-resorts-holdings,.html


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The chicken hasn't hatched yet, but *where are all of the people who have always insisted that Vail would never buy a resort in the northeast?  *I've seen many such posts here.



I dont know that I've seen those posts, but it makes no sense.  Assuming the numbers work, adding an eastern resort to the Vail portfolio decreases financial risk through geographical diversification.   Frankly, I'm surprised Vail hasn't bought an eastern resort long ago.



Jully said:


> *
> I'd be worried that Stowe would lose some of its character and become even more upscale than it already is.*



Is that possible?   Stowe would have to add waterparks, rollercoasters, and a 3 story shopping mall to lose additional "character" at this point.  I dont recognize Spruce.  Thankfully they werent permitted to demolish the main lodge, which is really a "main lodge" in name only now given the stuff over at Spruce is really the "main lodge" now.


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that possible?   Stowe would have to add waterparks, rollercoasters, and a 3 story shopping mall to lose additional "character" at this point.  I dont recognize Spruce.  Thankfully they werent permitted to demolish the main lodge, which is really a "main lodge" in name only now given the stuff over at Spruce is really the "main lodge" now.



Haha! I guess I am talking about the Mansfield side. You're right about Spruce, but when you're on the hill by the Fourrunner, it feels pretty different. Adding more HSQs and wider terrain could possibly harm that.


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## nhskier1969 (Jan 26, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> I can't find anywhere that a new parking lot of significant size could be put in near the Toll House. IMHO, they would have to build a 7 story parking garage where the tennis courts are to have enough parking spaces to make an impact there.
> 
> I think adding a partial deck over the main lot would be more effective (see Jay Peak's main lot) and more likely to get environmental approval.



Vail would probably charge for parking, like they currently do in Colorado


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2017)

Imagine the first winter it doesn't snow here and Vail has to realize how much money it costs to make snow over the entire mountain...  Going to be a pretty big eye opener for them.  Its not like out west where you make a base on some trails and nature does its thing.  Even in a good winter, there are thaw/refreeze cycles.  Totally different cash flow/profit model.  Can it work, yes if they sell X number of additional Epic passes


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, Vail has an uphill capacity of 50K people and can spread them over 5000+ acres.  Stowe has an uphill capacity of 15K people spread over 500 acres.  Pretty certain busiest days of the season at Stowe top 10K.  So, the skier density on the trails at Stowe on busy days is nightmarish compared to Vail.   Would Vail care?  Maybe. Considering there are other options like the MAXX and Mountain Collective passes they might.  Speaking for myself, I'd spend more money to go MAXX pass add on if my home Northeastern mountain was still manageable than go with the Epic on the cheap and deal with a total madhouse every weekend at Stowe that price likely causes.



My fear is exactly that. While Stowe's uphill capacity is ~1/3 of Vail's its acreage is 1/10th. People are willing to suffer through long lift lines out west, but I personally don't think people would be willing to suffer through the same on trail crowding that could happen with too much uphill and not enough downhill capacity. 

That is a good point about the MAXX pass though.


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## farlep99 (Jan 26, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Imagine the first winter it doesn't snow here and Vail has to realize how much money it costs to make snow over the entire mountain...  Going to be a pretty big eye opener for them.  Its not like out west where you make a base on some trails and nature does its thing.  Even in a good winter, there are thaw/refreeze cycles.  Totally different cash flow/profit model.  Can it work, yes if they sell X number of additional Epic passes



One would imagine a publicly traded, multi-million dollar company wouldn't realize this after they purchase the mountain.  They know full well what the potential costs are in a worst case scenario before closing a deal


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## tumbler (Jan 26, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Imagine the first winter it doesn't snow here and Vail has to realize how much money it costs to make snow over the entire mountain...  Going to be a pretty big eye opener for them.  Its not like out west where you make a base on some trails and nature does its thing.  Even in a good winter, there are thaw/refreeze cycles.  Totally different cash flow/profit model.  Can it work, yes if they sell X number of additional Epic passes



Vail has old East Coast people in their management- Blaise used to be president at Sugarbush...


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 26, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Imagine the first winter it doesn't snow here and Vail has to realize how much money it costs to make snow over the entire mountain...  Going to be a pretty big eye opener for them.



Imagine you get a terrible western winter like a few years ago, when eastern skiing was actually better for much of the season.   Again, diversification is not a bad thing, and decreases overall risk in their portfolio.


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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Not really an apples to apples comparison between Stowe and Whistler.  Whistler is the largest resort in North America.  They had the capacity to absorb significant increases in business.  Stowe does not. Because of this reality, maybe they would have to adjust their model for Stowe.  Perhaps the Epic Pass only includes Stowe midweek.  If you want to ski Stowe on the weekends, it's another $500 or something in that neighborhood.  That would still represent a significant savings over current pricing at Stowe and offer the benefit of out west destinations on the pass.  $1309 also wouldn't be so cheap that people would start jumping over from Sugarbush, Jay, Smuggs etc.


That would be out of the norm.  You could be right but that whole mid week thing is not the case with anything on the pass so far. And $500 jump just for Stowe making a totally new Epic Local East pass also seems unlikely.  But nothing is fact at this time and all speculation and rumor.

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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> Do you think Vail realizes that or cares though? I think about the crowds that I've heard of at Vail itself, their day with 50,000 skier visits or whatever it was. Is that not beyond capacity (not sure what their on hill crowding looked like)?


That is not a common capacity. Plus with the shear number of lifts it spreads people out.

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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> One would imagine a publicly traded, multi-million dollar company wouldn't realize this after they purchase the mountain.  They know full well what the potential costs are in a worst case scenario before closing a deal



Agreed. While Vail isn't in the eastern market currently, that doesn't mean they live in a bubble and have no idea what the weather is like over here. I'm sure they have people on their staff that at some point had prior eastern experience. And if they somehow didn't, then they would do their due diligence and consult with someone that does.


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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> As far as pricing is concerned, Vail is not going to run Stowe as an island.  The whole point is to drive business out west.  So whatever the pass price may be, I am confident that Vail will want to sell as many passes as possible in order to get as many people as possible taking a trip out west.


Exactly my point earlier,  Vail is looking at the Stowe clientele and targeting them.  Probably not very interested in the guy who is trying to ski on the cheap that more than likely will stay on Frisco, bring their lunch and drive to Vail Resorts.

I am one of those and I know I do not fit the profile their marketing targets.

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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Imagine the first winter it doesn't snow here and Vail has to realize how much money it costs to make snow over the entire mountain...  Going to be a pretty big eye opener for them.  Its not like out west where you make a base on some trails and nature does its thing.  Even in a good winter, there are thaw/refreeze cycles.  Totally different cash flow/profit model.  Can it work, yes if they sell X number of additional Epic passes


As with any purchase or merger, the acquisition team with go over all that and typically look at past 5 year financials and operations.  I was part such a team many moons ago and I bet that process has improved more.

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## benski (Jan 26, 2017)

tumbler said:


> Vail has old East Coast people in their management- Blaise used to be president at Sugarbush...



I think someone told me he started as a patroller at mount Ellen and gradually rose threw the ranks.

I doubt east cost snowmaking would be a surprise to Vail. Any serious bidder should have access to there historical costs.


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## 4aprice (Jan 26, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I disagree.  I am a season pass holder at SB.  I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass.   There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west.  In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
> But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG



This is exactly what we are doing with the Max Pass.  That's why I asked about the independents because I can tell you as of now I won't be going to a Sugarbush or Smugglers because they are not part of a package.  No doubt they are great areas, but a bundled product is so much more attractive then a solo one.  I wonder how many people feel the same way I do?  I certainly saw a lot of Max Passes at Okemo last weekend.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## SnoDevil97 (Jan 26, 2017)

Cool - so instead of $400/night rooms @ the Lodge & $100 lift tix - $600/night rooms & $150 lift tix.

Original prices were marginally prohibitive for me, but I've always wanted to ski Stowe. Guess not now. My fear is that Vail's pricing practices will cause increases elsewhere in the northeast, which are pretty high as they are. I fear for the long-term viability of skiing in the northeast given the decreasing snow due to warming & increased costs.


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

dlague said:


> That is not a common capacity. Plus with the shear number of lifts it spreads people out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Certainly not common, but we weren't necessarily talking about common weekends at Stowe either. We were talking about holiday crowds.

That is exactly my point though, Vail can spread people out, Stowe can't. At least not in the same way as some western resorts.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 26, 2017)

4aprice said:


> * I can tell you as of now I won't be going to a Sugarbush or Smugglers because they are not part of a package. * No doubt they are great areas, but a bundled product is so much more attractive then a solo one.  *I wonder how many people feel the same way I do?*



Put me down for feeling precisely the opposite.  Granted, if the mountain's good the moutain's good, but in general in terms of the "other stuff", I'm not a fan of McSkiing, and prefer small independent ski areas which each put their own spin on things and have their own character, and worry that with big conglomerates you may start to notice similarities which exist due to cost savings via scale. I much prefer a Smuggler's Notch or a Plattekill to the giants.  That said, I'm not an "amenity seeker" to begin with, 90% of my focus is on terrain/weather, so those who enjoy lavish lodging and 4-star restaurants will not doubt feel otherwise.  My 2¢.


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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

SnoDevil97 said:


> Cool - so instead of $400/night rooms @ the Lodge & $100 lift tix - $600/night rooms & $150 lift tix.
> 
> Original prices were marginally prohibitive for me, but I've always wanted to ski Stowe. Guess not now. My fear is that Vail's pricing practices will cause increases elsewhere in the northeast, which are pretty high as they are. I fear for the long-term viability of skiing in the northeast given the decreasing snow due to warming & increased costs.


The point is not to buy daily lift tickets but buy the pass.

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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> Certainly not common, but we weren't necessarily talking about common weekends at Stowe either. We were talking about holiday crowds.
> 
> That is exactly my point though, Vail can spread people out, Stowe can't. At least not in the same way as some western resorts.


Well we skied Vail on new years day and trails were vacant.  Christmas was the same.



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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Put me down for feeling precisely the opposite.  Granted, if the mountain's good the moutain's good, but in general in terms of the "other stuff", I'm not a fan of McSkiing, and prefer small independent ski areas which each put their own spin on things and have their own character, and worry that with big conglomerates you may start to notice similarities which exist due to cost savings via scale. I much prefer a Smuggler's Notch or a Plattekill to the giants.  That said, I'm not an "amenity seeker" to begin with, 90% of my focus is on terrain/weather, so those who enjoy lavish lodging and 4-star restaurants will not doubt feel otherwise.  My 2¢.


Well I like having diversity as well so the Epic Local Pass still gives us that.  We have been to 6 ski areas that have a combined 15,000 acres and we will hit a few more.  Terrain variety has not been a problem.  We are not the overnight skin in ski out lodging type and limit our time in the restaurants and bars.  So it works for us. 

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## NYDB (Jan 26, 2017)

dlague said:


> The point is not to buy daily lift tickets but buy the pass.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Thats great for us enthusiasts but what I find with this model is, as a pass holder it's tough to introduce new people, and other families to the sport.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

NY DirtBag said:


> Thats great for us enthusiasts but what I find with this model is, as a pass holder it's tough to introduce new people, and other families to the sport.



I agree. Even though I'm a passholder and get terrific value out of it, I still worry about the daily ticket rates resulting in problems down the line with getting more people into the sport. For people that ski a lot, passes are fantastic. For people interested in trying the sport or casual skiers/riders, day tickets scare them away.


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## SnowRock (Jan 26, 2017)

Question as I contemplate a MTN owned Stowe... is the thought that MTN would make their EPIC pass money based on volume considering current cost of that product versus a Stowe season pass?


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> Question as I contemplate a MTN owned Stowe... is the thought that MTN would make their EPIC pass money based on volume considering current cost of that product versus a Stowe season pass?



I believe so, but remember only half of MTN's profits come from ticket sales. But with regards to pass holders its also about attracting new customers in the east and getting former Stowe passholders to go out west and spending money out there!


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## Jully (Jan 26, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I agree. Even though I'm a passholder and get terrific value out of it, I still worry about the daily ticket rates resulting in problems down the line with getting more people into the sport. For people that ski a lot, passes are fantastic. For people interested in trying the sport or casual skiers/riders, day tickets scare them away.



I agree with you, but you already see other mountains trying to fill this void. Ragged has a free to ski and ride program where you get 3 free lessons with everything included. You then can buy your own gear at a reasonable discount and get a wicked cheap season pass for the rest of that year and the next year. 

The program seems pretty popular too. The busiest lift most days I'm there is their beginner lift!

If more programs like these pop up, I'll feel even better about the future of the sport. Different mountains are just targeting different demographics!


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## VTKilarney (Jan 26, 2017)

If Vail is still in the buying mood, which I doubt they will be right away if they buy Stowe, I think these would be prime options:
- Bromont: Closest sizeable ski area to Montreal and can drive traffic to Whistler.
- Whitetail: There is a lot of money in the D.C. area and since the skiing isn't so great pass holders would be very tempted to ski out west.


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## Keelhauled (Jan 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> If Vail is still in the buying mood, which I doubt they will be right away if they buy Stowe, I think these would be prime options:
> - Bromont: Closest sizeable ski area to Montreal and can drive traffic to Whistler.
> - Whitetail: There is a lot of money in the D.C. area and since the skiing isn't so great pass holders would be very tempted to ski out west.


Well I thought they weren't going to be in the buying mood after Park City, but then they went and bought Whistler, so what do I know. At this point there are very few things they can do that would surprise me.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> I agree with you, but you already see other mountains trying to fill this void. Ragged has a free to ski and ride program where you get 3 free lessons with everything included. You then can buy your own gear at a reasonable discount and get a wicked cheap season pass for the rest of that year and the next year.
> 
> The program seems pretty popular too. The busiest lift most days I'm there is their beginner lift!
> 
> If more programs like these pop up, I'll feel even better about the future of the sport. Different mountains are just targeting different demographics!



Sugarbush does have something similar for true first-timers over the age of 13 (http://www.sugarbush.com/ski-ride-school/first-timer-lesson-program-for-skiers-and-snowboarders/). For $280 you get rentals, 3 lessons, and lift tickets for those 3 days. After you successfully complete the program you get a full season pass for the remainder of the year. That's a hell of a deal. 

That still leaves a giant gap for people that have maybe tried it a couple times and want to go again or just for the casual skier that only goes a handful of times a year.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 26, 2017)

Doubtful whitetail is for sale.  Its is privately owned along with 2 other mountains in central PA.  Its is by far the best skiing, and most crowded.  Like 9 runs in 4 hours crowded on a Sunday.  It is also the cash cow for the "corporation".  

As always, money talks but I highly doubt that it would be let go with out all 3 mountains in the mix.  

It'd be great for me since I am a pass holder at Roundtop (pass is good at Liberty and Whitetail) and I'd be buying an epic pass for not much more money than I spent for my 3-mountain local pass.

Lots of chatter about an announcement tomorrow.  Definitely have concerns about if this goes through...


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## 4aprice (Jan 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Put me down for feeling precisely the opposite.  Granted, if the mountain's good the moutain's good, but in general in terms of the "other stuff", I'm not a fan of McSkiing, and prefer small independent ski areas which each put their own spin on things and have their own character, and worry that with big conglomerates you may start to notice similarities which exist due to cost savings via scale. I much prefer a Smuggler's Notch or a Plattekill to the giants.  That said, I'm not an "amenity seeker" to begin with, 90% of my focus is on terrain/weather, so those who enjoy lavish lodging and 4-star restaurants will not doubt feel otherwise.  My 2¢.



Just to add to that, the bundle would have to include western areas.  Would not be interested in east only.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## benski (Jan 26, 2017)

Vail should by Tuxedo ridge. Defiantly for sale. Enough developable land for a Casino. Close enough to NYC to sell condos to commuters.


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## SnowRock (Jan 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> I believe so, but remember only half of MTN's profits come from ticket sales. But with regards to pass holders its also about attracting new customers in the east and getting former Stowe passholders to go out west and spending money out there!



Yup good point.. and I guess considering their assumptions of the composition of Stowe pass-holders, plus the new folks they would attract to buy an Epic Pass with an East Coast mountain, they may assume a high % would take trips and spend $$ on mountain/at MTN owned lodging. That said cost differential is pretty large.

Selfishly I much prefer Stowe as part of the Mountain Collective.


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## skiur (Jan 26, 2017)

dlague said:


> Well we skied Vail on new years day and trails were vacant.  Christmas was the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



How is that different than any other mountain?  Everywhere is empty on Christmas day and new years day.


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## cdskier (Jan 26, 2017)

skiur said:


> How is that different than any other mountain?  Everywhere is empty on Christmas day and new years day.



Right...the busy times for ski areas on those 2 holidays are usually not the holidays themselves, but sometime between them depending on how the weekends and holidays fall.


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## dlague (Jan 26, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> If Vail is still in the buying mood, which I doubt they will be right away if they buy Stowe, I think these would be prime options:
> - Bromont: Closest sizeable ski area to Montreal and can drive traffic to Whistler.
> - Whitetail: There is a lot of money in the D.C. area and since the skiing isn't so great pass holders would be very tempted to ski out west.



 If this rumor is true - who thought they would be in a buying mood after Whistler?


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 26, 2017)

i thought it would be jay/burke. very interesting. if this results in a ~$700 stowe/summit+eagle county pass, then i am possibly leaving max. a little worry that stowe would have insanely increased skier visit #s and crowding? maybe they get jay/burke too to spread the passholders?


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## KD7000 (Jan 26, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> I can't find anywhere that a new parking lot of significant size could be put in near the Toll House. IMHO, they would have to build a 7 story parking garage where the tennis courts are to have enough parking spaces to make an impact there.
> 
> I think adding a partial deck over the main lot would be more effective (see Jay Peak's main lot) and more likely to get environmental approval.


Right across the street from the Toll House area is already a small lot.  They'd need to expand that, figure out how to get people across the road, put up a proper lodge, and replace the deathly slow lift.

I'm actually surprised they haven't done all of this already.  Spruce is a nightmare when it's busy.

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## Scruffy (Jan 26, 2017)

I don't think price is the only driving factor of where and when people ski at any particular area. I wouldn't worry about Stowe being overrun by a lower season pass. It was not that long ago Stowe was not the lux price it is now, it was more competitive with the rest of the big NE ski areas, and I don't remember there being so many people skiing there that they didn't have a place to park.  I was there 2 weeks ago on a $49 deal day and it was empty, granted it was mid-week. 

I kinda wish Aspen would buy Stowe over Vail. Aspen is just a better operation.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2017)

That would be great. I vastly prefer the Aspen area to Vails front range resorts. 

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## BenedictGomez (Jan 26, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> It was not that long ago Stowe was not the lux price it is now, it was more competitive with the rest of the big NE ski areas,



When, the cretaceous period?  Stowe has been the most expensive in the east for many years now.


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## Scruffy (Jan 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> When, the cretaceous period?  Stowe has been the most expensive in the east for many years now.


 10-15 years ago it was only a couple bucks more than bush/Kton, not enough to scare anyone away, not even worth a mention. The spread has widened within the past few years, esp after the price point broke $100. You wouldn't know, you haven't skied there in years yourself, by your own principles.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 26, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> 10-15 years ago it was only a couple bucks more than bush/Kton, not enough to scare anyone away, not even worth a mention. The spread has widened within the past few years, esp after the price point broke $100. You wouldn't know, you haven't skied there in years yourself, by your own principles.



to be fair, BG lived in VT and worked at Stowe 10-15 years ago and has skied there since

I do agree with your pricing analysis though.  Late 90s through early 2000's Stowe was no more expensive than Killington, Okemo, Stratton etc.


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## Scruffy (Jan 26, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> *to be fair, BG lived in VT and worked at Stowe 10-15 years ago and has skied there since
> *
> I do agree with your pricing analysis though.  Late 90s through early 2000's Stowe was no more expensive than Killington, Okemo, Stratton etc.


 Yeah, I know, I'm just razzing him a little; he likes to say he won't ski there any more, on price principle alone.


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## RISkier (Jan 27, 2017)

nhskier1969 said:


> I disagree.  I am a season pass holder at SB.  I would never leave SB but its intriguing to me because you could have a home mountain in New England and then plan a family trip out west and it would be covered under your season pass.   There are probably many new englanders that Plan a couple of trips up north and do a trip out west.  In terms of market share this would entice the consumer to gravitate towards the Vail product.
> But the crowds you would have a Stowe, OMG



A few years ago we swapped a time share for a place in Vail. Then started looking at prices and decided we'd buy an Epic Pass and plan a 2nd trip to Summit County. At that time I think we paid a little over $500 and skied about 13 days. For a variety of reasons we tend to prefer UT. We usually ski Stowe enough to justify an Epic Pass, but we live in Southern NE and the current pass prices make no sense for us. An Epic pass that included Stowe would make the Vail owned Western resorts very attractive to us. I do fear what might happen to crowds at Stowe. We pretty much avoid skiing Stowe on any Saturday. We were up over MLK and walked our dogs through the notch that Saturday and had trouble finding parking. An Eastern Epic Pass would also likely force other Eastern areas to evaluate their pricing structure.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont know that I've seen those posts, but it makes no sense.  Assuming the numbers work, adding an eastern resort to the Vail portfolio decreases financial risk through geographical diversification.   Frankly, I'm surprised Vail hasn't bought an eastern resort long ago.



Here's just one recent example from Trailboss:
"I just don't see Vail interested in an eastern resort. It doesn't fit their model."
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...00-Epic-Passes?p=963780&viewfull=1#post963780

There are other examples.


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## RISkier (Jan 27, 2017)

KD7000 said:


> Right across the street from the Toll House area is already a small lot.  They'd need to expand that, figure out how to get people across the road, put up a proper lodge, and replace the deathly slow lift.
> 
> I'm actually surprised they haven't done all of this already.  Spruce is a nightmare when it's busy.
> 
> Sent from my XT1585 using AlpineZone mobile app



I've heard Stowe locals say that the Toll House area would be developed at some point in the future. Basically to do another area with high end condos like Spruce. I believe the Inn is closed and used for employee housing. I also (and I'm just speculating here) believe many of the extant condos in the Toll House area are privately owned, and we've recently seen some listed for sale. I certainly don't know the legal details but I'd think that until whoever owns the resort owns all of the condos, they'd be pretty limited in what they can do over there. That's such an underused area. Beautiful beginner terrain and almost nobody skies over there. Fresh powder will literally hang around for days. If it's not too cold and we feel like taking it easy for a while, we'll sometimes do a run or two over there. Really lovely and peaceful. But the lift is a huge PIA and I'm sure a big part of the reason no one even takes a quick run or two. I just won't ride it on a cold day.


----------



## machski (Jan 27, 2017)

Not to mention if you do anything at Toll House, you need to add snowmaking down there.  I'm sure Vail knows all of that though if they are jumping in.


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## rtjcbrown (Jan 27, 2017)

RISkier said:


> I've heard Stowe locals say that the Toll House area would be developed at some point in the future. Basically to do another area with high end condos like Spruce. I believe the Inn is closed and used for employee housing. I also (and I'm just speculating here) believe many of the extant condos in the Toll House area are privately owned, and we've recently seen some listed for sale. I certainly don't know the legal details but I'd think that until whoever owns the resort owns all of the condos, they'd be pretty limited in what they can do over there. That's such an underused area. Beautiful beginner terrain and almost nobody skies over there. Fresh powder will literally hang around for days. If it's not too cold and we feel like taking it easy for a while, we'll sometimes do a run or two over there. Really lovely and peaceful. But the lift is a huge PIA and I'm sure a big part of the reason no one even takes a quick run or two. I just won't ride it on a cold day.




I would think a two stage gondola/bubble chair would fit nicely there. Have it follow the line of the current double, but extend it a little bit to the intersection at the top of Gulch/Tyro/T-line, and have an unload station there. Then have the lift do a right turn and go down to the base/main lodge following the route of North Slope. This would allow people parking at Toll House a direct ride to the main lodge. You could also use the lower section of the new lift to replace the slow Toll House lift. You could also allow two-way traffic on the lift so people could use it to access (from Mansfield base) the trails currently served by the Mountain Triple. Both the Toll House and Mountain Triple are 30+ years old and will need replacement soon, so this one lift will take the place of both. You put in a free/discount parking at the base of Toll House to alleviate the crowding at Mansfield/Spruce.


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## farlep99 (Jan 27, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> I don't think price is the only driving factor of where and when people ski at any particular area. I wouldn't worry about Stowe being overrun by a lower season pass. It was not that long ago Stowe was not the lux price it is now, it was more competitive with the rest of the big NE ski areas, and I don't remember there being so many people skiing there that they didn't have a place to park.  I was there 2 weeks ago on a $49 deal day and it was empty, granted it was mid-week.
> 
> I kinda wish Aspen would buy Stowe over Vail. Aspen is just a better operation.



Weekend parking at Stowe nowadays is a complete clusterf*ck.  They used to have lots over on the Spruce side as well.  Those are now gone and any parking over there is private.  Unless you get to the hill early (730-830) you're going to be hunting for a spot & probably will have to do a few laps.  it's really frustrating


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## Jcb890 (Jan 27, 2017)

To the people worried about Vail upping the price on normal day lift tickets - you guys do realize Stowe is charging $129 (w/out RFID) for a weekend/holiday pass, right?  Colorado resorts aren't really that much more.

The season passes to Stowe are honestly unreasonable.  We went once last year on the VT Ski 3 Card, but Stowe's passes and window rates are just too much for us.  There are better deals which are as close or closer, in my opinion.  Stowe is super nice, but the price is prohibitive.  If they were added to the EPIC Pass @ $609, anyone who is planning to go West to any of their destinations and ride Stowe more than 1-2 days, it makes too much sense not to go that route.

What would be really awesome is if Vail bought both Stowe and Jay peak and put them both on the EPIC Pass @ $609.  I think Jay would get a lot more traffic being run by a reputable company like Vail and hopefully we'd see an end to a lot of the possible shenanigans going on with lifts, wind holds, trail openings, etc.  I know, wishful thinking...


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## dlague (Jan 27, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> That would be great. I vastly prefer the Aspen area to Vails front range resorts.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


I would not call Breck, Vail or Keystone front range.  Front range is pretty flat.  Front range starts past Golden.  This places are more than double the elevation of the front range and that difference surpasses the height of Mount Washington.

Now I do get the preference for Aspen however we have not skied there yet and possibly will not this season.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2017)

dlague said:


> I would not call Breck, Vail or Keystone front range.  Front range is pretty flat.  Front range starts past Golden.  This places are more than double the elevation of the front range and that difference surpasses the height of Mount Washington.
> 
> Now I do get the preference for Aspen however we have not skied there yet and possibly will not this season.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


While technically not the Front range, that's what summit county resorts and to a lesser extent Vail have been called for years. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## SkiFanE (Jan 27, 2017)

I haven't read back through every post - but didn't see mention of the quaint town of Stowe being a draw for Vail. It's the quintessential picture perfect NE town that people from afar kind of expect. Do people from afar fly to NE to ski?  Not as much as the west I bet. But if you skip the east because of the snow/conditions, maybe you'd be more enticed by a NE resort town. I'm not sure what transportation is like - but do they shuttle from town to the Mountain?  Can they do more to the resort vibe if you include the town?

Personally, Stowe was my favorite Mt in New England - before we  had kids and committed to SR. Haven't been skiing there in 20 years - but it was always our first choice (and my brother settled there so I've visited Stowe more recently without skiing). I loved the terrain - we'd pop in woods all over the place.  It'd bust our budget now tho.


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## Scruffy (Jan 27, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> Weekend parking at Stowe nowadays is a complete clusterf*ck.  They used to have lots over on the Spruce side as well.  Those are now gone and any parking over there is private.  Unless you get to the hill early (730-830) you're going to be hunting for a spot & probably will have to do a few laps.  it's really frustrating


 hmm.. guess I've gotten there early enough or have just been lucky. I'm there several times a year, weekends included, every year. I'm always parking up near Mansfield lodge? I avoid known crazy weekends like, MLK, Pres. WK, but honestly, I've not seen it as clusterF, but I believe you. I'll keep it in mind and make sure I'm there early every time, thanks for the heads up. I'm surprised they don't have public parking up by Spruce. They want people to shop there, taking the over easy just to shop is weird. 

On another note, the Spruce Base Camp lodge is the best place for lunch on the mountain, I mean fro a ski lodge cafeteria style place that is.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 27, 2017)

They could easily add a second level to the Mansfield parking lot.  The entire thing is paved already, so no real stormwater runoff impact. They could even do it in phases if they didn't want to make the entire thing 2 levels at once.  Start at the end of the lot closest to the Gondola and work towards town.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2017)

So.....12 pages later....any more evidence that suggests that Vail is going to buy the place?


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## farlep99 (Jan 27, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They could easily add a second level to the Mansfield parking lot.  The entire thing is paved already, so no real stormwater runoff impact. They could even do it in phases if they didn't want to make the entire thing 2 levels at once.  Start at the end of the lot closest to the Gondola and work towards town.



The Mansfield lot is not paved.  Not sure what you're referring to here


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## dlague (Jan 27, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> While technically not the Front range, that's what summit county resorts and to a lesser extent Vail have been called for years.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Did not know that nor have I heard it.  But that makes sense as in the front of the mountain range?  I mean they are all on the western side of the Continental Divide as in their snow melt flows to the Pacific like Aspen.  

From a skiing vert Aspen does have a lot to deliver - wish it was closer to me. About 4 hours from where I live.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## WJenness (Jan 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....12 pages later....any more evidence that suggests that Vail is going to buy the place?



Not exactly what a lawyer would call evidence;-), but someone on KZone was saying "look for a press release today"... So let's see what happens.

-w


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## Edd (Jan 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....12 pages later....any more evidence that suggests that Vail is going to buy the place?



Googling it a few times a day since the thread started. Only hits on ski forums.

I selfishly would prefer that they purchase the Boyne trio of NE ski areas. It would cover more ground for them in NE and would be more consistent with their pass pricing structure. I'd go back to Boyne instantly assuming that they'd be incorporated into the standard Epic pass. 

The bad news is that the already serious weekend crowds would reach EPIC-demic (sorry) proportions at those areas. But I'm a weekday guy. Again, I'm selfish.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 27, 2017)

SkiFanE said:


> I haven't read back through every post - but didn't see mention of the quaint town of Stowe being a draw for Vail. It's the quintessential picture perfect NE town that people from afar kind of expect. Do people from afar fly to NE to ski?  Not as much as the west I bet. But if you skip the east because of the snow/conditions, maybe you'd be more enticed by a NE resort town. I'm not sure what transportation is like - but do they shuttle from town to the Mountain?  Can they do more to the resort vibe if you include the town?
> 
> Personally, Stowe was my favorite Mt in New England - before we  had kids and committed to SR. Haven't been skiing there in 20 years - but it was always our first choice (and my brother settled there so I've visited Stowe more recently without skiing). I loved the terrain - we'd pop in woods all over the place.  It'd bust our budget now tho.


Stowe gets a fair amount of British skiers, but obviously people don't travel great distances in the numbers they do out west.

The town does have e a great ski shuttle bus that stops at most all lodging properties in town

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 27, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> The Mansfield lot is not paved.  Not sure what you're referring to here



It most certainly is paved and has been since at least 2014 according to this Google Street View.  Judging by the pavement it has been paved for several years at that point.

​


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## Jully (Jan 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....12 pages later....any more evidence that suggests that Vail is going to buy the place?



Second article in the Stowe Reporter, but no press release. I've heard from a few different forums/comments that today is the day for the press release. We will see if that is true...


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## VTKilarney (Jan 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....12 pages later....any more evidence that suggests that Vail is going to buy the place?


Patience, young Jedi.


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## burski (Jan 27, 2017)

The only people who put out a press release on a Friday afternoon are people who don't want a press release read...  It seems unlikely we'll see anything today.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 27, 2017)




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## benski (Jan 27, 2017)

burski said:


> The only people who put out a press release on a Friday afternoon are people who don't want a press release read...  It seems unlikely we'll see anything today.



Or the person knows there hated. #QStowe


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## mriceyman (Jan 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So.....12 pages later....any more evidence that suggests that Vail is going to buy the place?



If you look at the stock price it is on its way up. People anticipating a buy?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> If you look at the stock price it is on its way up. People anticipating a buy?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Or California, Colorado, and Utah are having a REALLY good winter after about five years of drought and revenues are up.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 27, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> View attachment 21639



:lol:


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## Zermatt (Jan 27, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> If you look at the stock price it is on its way up. People anticipating a buy?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That's not the kind of thing that usually drives a stock up.  Dumb purchases usually crush a stock, good purchases are mostly neutral or slightly negative until it becomes clear it was a good investment.


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## benski (Jan 27, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> If you look at the stock price it is on its way up. People anticipating a buy?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Looks like its been rising for 10 days so must be another reason. Looks like its the snow and/or something that has to do with the general economy.


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## machski (Jan 27, 2017)

Edd said:


> Googling it a few times a day since the thread started. Only hits on ski forums.
> 
> I selfishly would prefer that they purchase the Boyne trio of NE ski areas. It would cover more ground for them in NE and would be more consistent with their pass pricing structure. I'd go back to Boyne instantly assuming that they'd be incorporated into the standard Epic pass.
> 
> The bad news is that the already serious weekend crowds would reach EPIC-demic (sorry) proportions at those areas. But I'm a weekday guy. Again, I'm selfish.


Well that would be a nice infusion of cash for these three, doubt Vail would attempt.  Boyne holds long term operating leases and my understanding is they have an option to buy on SL/SR (the Loon deal is different).


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## dlague (Jan 29, 2017)

machski said:


> Well that would be a nice infusion of cash for these three, doubt Vail would attempt.  Boyne holds long term operating leases and my understanding is they have an option to buy on SL/SR (the Loon deal is different).


Yup do not think Vail wants operating leases.  As far as stock prices.  These huge snow events for Colorado Utah and California as well as the purchase of Whistler are probably more of a driver.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 30, 2017)

So its about 9 AM Mountain time, will there be a press release???


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## farlep99 (Jan 30, 2017)

no press release but wall street now talking...

http://www.thestreet.com/story/13971085/1/vail-resorts-may-acquire-vermont-s-stowe-mountain.html

in this article it says "nothing has been written or signed."  this is consistent with what I've heard this past week.  there was a handshake deal done, but nothing official.  I think a lot of it is hinging on the price & potential Toll House area development.  If there are no major obstacles to developing Toll House the deal could reach $500mil.  But if there are land/development issues (and this being VT, there almost certainly is) it could be in the $275-300mil range.  This is obviously very speculative, but I've talked to people pretty close to the situation.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 30, 2017)

Did Vail buy Jay Peak yet or what?!?!


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## thetrailboss (Jan 30, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Did Vail buy Jay Peak yet or what?!?!



We're all still waiting for the announcement about Saddleback, Waterville Valley, and Magic.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## slatham (Jan 30, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> We're all still waiting for the announcement about Saddleback, Waterville Valley, and Magic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Happily, Magic is clearly off the market. Not sure about the others.


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## machski (Jan 30, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> no press release but wall street now talking...
> 
> http://www.thestreet.com/story/13971085/1/vail-resorts-may-acquire-vermont-s-stowe-mountain.html
> 
> in this article it says "nothing has been written or signed."  this is consistent with what I've heard this past week.  there was a handshake deal done, but nothing official.  I think a lot of it is hinging on the price & potential Toll House area development.  If there are no major obstacles to developing Toll House the deal could reach $500mil.  But if there are land/development issues (and this being VT, there almost certainly is) it could be in the $275-300mil range.  This is obviously very speculative, but I've talked to people pretty close to the situation.


If these speculative sales prices are even partially true, their stock price will likely take a hit.  Especially if the $500million figure were to happen.  Even with Toll House development, no way do I think Stowe is worth that.  In an extremely restrictive state on development no less.  This smells like all talk more and more each day.


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## Jully (Jan 30, 2017)

$500 million is absolutely insane


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## fbrissette (Jan 30, 2017)

Jully said:


> $500 million is absolutely insane



Even 275-300$ millions does not make sense.

Consider that the following were sold a couple of months ago for less than 400 millions  (all of them together).

Brighton Ski Resort, Utah
Crested Butte Mountain Resort, Colorado
Cypress Mountain, B.C., Canada
Gatlinburg Sky Lift, Tennessee
Jiminy Peak Mountain Resort, Massachusetts
Loon Mountain Resort, New Hampshire
Mount Sunapee Mountain Resort, New Hampshire
Mountain High Resort, California
Northstar-at-Tahoe Resort, California
Okemo Mountain Resort, Vermont
Sierra-at-Tahoe Resort, California
Stevens Pass, Washington
Sugarloaf Mountain Resort, Maine
Summit-at-Snoqualmie Resort, Washington
Sunday River Resort, Maine
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


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## mriceyman (Jan 30, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Even 275-300$ millions does not make sense.
> 
> Consider that the following were sold a couple of months ago for less than 400 millions  (all of them together).
> 
> ...



Did all of the land come with those resorts or does someone else own the acreage?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## dlague (Jan 30, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Did all of the land come with those resorts or does someone else own the acreage?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Someone else owns the acreage!  And if you notice, many are on the Max Pass!


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## machski (Jan 31, 2017)

dlague said:


> Someone else owns the acreage!  And if you notice, many are on the Max Pass!


No, Och-Ziff owns the acreage now.  The operating companies simply lease it back from them.  This sale was the actual assets (IE acreage).


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## machski (Jan 31, 2017)

^^^That said, may not be a fair comparison as CNL was looking to unload the entire portfolio for a while.  A direct sale of assets and operations like Stowe would likely command a premium above what CNL/O-Z transaction was, but the mentioned numbers still seem ridiculous.


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## benski (Jan 31, 2017)

machski said:


> ^^^That said, may not be a fair comparison as CNL was looking to unload the entire portfolio for a while.  A direct sale of assets and operations like Stowe would likely command a premium above what CNL/O-Z transaction was, but the mentioned numbers still seem ridiculous.



So is paying $1,800 for a pass.


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## machski (Jan 31, 2017)

^^^No disagreement there.


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## cdskier (Jan 31, 2017)

Well played benski!


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## thetrailboss (Feb 1, 2017)

http://www.wcax.com/story/34402269/rumors-of-stowe-resort-sale-reach-crescendo


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Whitney (Feb 2, 2017)

no no no. As a former vail employee, I hope the people at Stowe can avoid this!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 3, 2017)

Not happening. Have it from a good source the discussions were not all that serious. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Feb 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Not happening. Have it from a good source the discussions were not all that serious.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


I've always thought that something closer to NYC or Montreal made more sense.  I'm sure the price was prohibitive as well.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 3, 2017)

Jay and Burke would make sense. Montreal market and the Boston/ct/NYC hardcores. All those condos, new hotels, and 4 season amenities. And on sale for cheap cheap cheap


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Not happening. Have it from a good source the discussions were not all that serious.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


The guy I know that runs a major ski tour company based out of Stowe said it is happening. This guy is well connected with all of the brass at the mountain. He funnels A LOT of business there and would be in the know.

That being said until it happens or doesn't happen then it's just the same Cycle of rumors.

Major surprise powder day today best day I ever had at a Stowe.



Sent from my SM-G930V using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Feb 3, 2017)

My information came today through my best friend who owns a couple of restaurants in town. A top executive of the mountain has been a close family friend of his for 20 years and said there was never any real serious discussion.  Now, it's certainly possible that this executive was telling a white lie to quiet rumors until a deal goes through, but I would be very surprised if that was the case. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Feb 3, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> My information came today through my best friend who owns a couple of restaurants in town. A top executive of the mountain has been a close family friend of his for 20 years and said there was never any real serious discussion.  Now, it's certainly possible that this executive was telling a white lie to quiet rumors until a deal goes through, but I would be very surprised if that was the case.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sounds like they are at least kicking the tires.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Feb 3, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like they are at least kicking the tires.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Agreed.  This at least shows that they are paying attention to the northeast.  That alone is an interesting development.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 3, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Sounds like they are at least kicking the tires.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Negative. Nothing substantial. This executive straight up told my buddy the Vail guys came to make a visit (it's not unusual for ski area executives to visit other areas) a memo went out to alert some managers of the visit and roll out the red carpet with service and the rumor mills got churning. 

Again, it could be a white lie, but I don't think so. When I lived in town rumors swirled all the time about the mountain being for sale and potential buyers coming through town.  In today's age of social media it wouldn't be unreasonable if a rumor like this just ran wild. 

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 56fish (Feb 4, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Negative. Nothing substantial. This executive straight up told my buddy the Vail guys came to make a visit (it's not unusual for ski area executives to visit other areas) a memo went out to alert some managers of the visit and roll out the red carpet with service and the rumor mills got churning.



Smart folks like to learn.  Stowe is "Stowe" for a reason.  Definitely a great hill, serious reputation and, pulling-down big bucks for tix & real estate....Guys at Vail smart enough to know....they don't know it all.


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## farlep99 (Feb 21, 2017)

Deal is done...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vail-resorts-acquire-stowe-mountain-130000462.html


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

Guess the rumors were true. Amazing how things quieted down for a couple weeks and then "boom...press release, deal done!"

Also looks like the original rumors had an extra 0 in the price. Now the interesting question, with a price of $50 million for Stowe, what does that do for the potential sale value of Jay (and Burke)?


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## fbrissette (Feb 21, 2017)

50 millions ?


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## Smellytele (Feb 21, 2017)

...Vail Resorts looks forward to integrating Stowe Mountain Resort into its  Epic Pass and other season pass products for the 2017-18 winter season,  subject to the acquisition closing. With the Epic Pass, Vermont skiers  and snowboarders will have unlimited access locally at Stowe at an  attractive price as well as the best of the West at Vail, Beaver Creek,  Breckenridge and Keystone in Colorado; Park City in Utah; Heavenly,  Northstar and Kirkwood in Tahoe; and Whistler Blackcomb in British  Columbia, Canada.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

Interesting to note that the deal does NOT include "Other facilities such as the Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Mountain Club, Stowe Country Club and certain real estate owned and held for potential future development".


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## farlep99 (Feb 21, 2017)

The $50mil number makes sense only because of this nugget...

"[FONT=&quot]Other facilities such as the Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Mountain Club, Stowe Country Club and certain real estate owned and held for potential future development will be retained by MMC (Mount Mansfield Co)."

Real estate/potential future development was where any real potential value was for Vail.  I am surprised that they bought it without that.[/FONT]


----------



## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> Real estate/potential future development was where any real potential value was for Vail.  I am surprised that they bought it without that.



I am too as I tended to view the real estate/lodging side as more of Vail's money maker. I guess in this case they are looking to use Stowe more to just boost Epic pass numbers and drive more visits to their western resorts.


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## benski (Feb 21, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> The $50mil number makes sense only because of this nugget...
> 
> "[FONT="]Other facilities such as the Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Mountain Club, Stowe Country Club and certain real estate owned and held for potential future development will be retained by MMC (Mount Mansfield Co)."
> 
> Real estate/potential future development was where any real potential value was for Vail.  I am surprised that they bought it without that.[/FONT]



I wonder if Vail can still develop its own real estate. Specifically says some potential real estate, not all potential real estate.


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## wtcobb (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I am too as I tended to view the real estate/lodging side as more of Vail's money maker. I guess in this case they are looking to use Stowe more to just boost Epic pass numbers and drive more visits to their western resorts.



The final paragraph gives weight to this idea:
_
[FONT=&quot]Vail Resorts looks forward to integrating Stowe Mountain Resort into its Epic Pass and other season pass products for the 2017-18 winter season, subject to the acquisition closing. With the Epic Pass, Vermont skiers and snowboarders will have unlimited access locally at Stowe at an attractive price as well as the best of the West at Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge and Keystone in Colorado; Park City in Utah; Heavenly, Northstar and Kirkwood in Tahoe; and Whistler Blackcomb in British Columbia, Canada.[/FONT]_

Specifically calls out the Epic Pass and promotes the big western resorts to the east coast.


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## jimk (Feb 21, 2017)

Do you guys expect this to trigger a northeastern pass war?


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## NYDB (Feb 21, 2017)

jimk said:


> Do you guys expect this to trigger a northeastern pass war?



I would think so.  How could it not?   how does K or SB justify their seasons pass price?


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## Edd (Feb 21, 2017)

jimk said:


> Do you guys expect this to trigger a northeastern pass war?



If they'd acquired Killington/Pico or the Boyne areas I'd say absolutely. I'm not sure with Stowe.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Interesting to note that the deal does NOT include "Other facilities such as the Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Mountain Club, Stowe Country Club and certain real estate owned and held for potential future development".



Exactly.  Only the ski facilities.  NOT the real estate.  

Think about it though--they bought the ski lodges, ski lifts, snowmaking infrastructure, and maybe a small amount of land.  Correct me if I'm wrong Stowe locals, but the wide majority of the ski terrain sits on Vermont State Land and is leased to the resort.  Hence the low price tag.  Just read an article that said that Vail REALLY wanted the real estate, but AIG is raking it in on those properties and refused to sell.  Vail, of course, may eventually buy it down the road.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

Here's the article:  http://vtskiandride.com/vail-buys-stowe/

Just read on BFP that this is for real.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

NY DirtBag said:


> I would think so.  How could it not?   how does K or SB justify their seasons pass price?



I'm not convinced that it will. It may slow the increase at other areas, but it will be nearly impossible for other areas to try to directly compete with Epic. Some resorts may need to take a "wait and see" approach before modifying their prices. See how their sales are impacted before making decisions. Severely dropping current prices isn't necessarily good for long term viability at other resorts if they can't increase sales enough to offset the price drop. I'm not so sure you will see a mass exodus from places like SB or K to Stowe just because Epic is lower priced even if K and SB made no prices changes. Will you lose a few people? Sure. Enough to justify a massive price drop? That I'm not so sure of.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 21, 2017)

With such a cheap purchase price, does that leave Vail with some extra $$ to go after Jay and Burke and corner the northern Vermont market? Kind of like what Vail did around Lake Tahoe.

With Jay and Burke's remaining property expansion potential, they could be very attractive.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2017)

I'll eat crow.  Guess the mountain's director of marketing was running interference by telling people in town the sale was just a rumor with no substance.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Not happening. Have it from a good source the discussions were not all that serious.


Whoops.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 21, 2017)

I was just thinking the other day that it must've been just that, rumors. 

Almost makes sense to let it die down and then become news again (if that is what happened).  It does sound like the real estate may have been a sticking point. 

Vail still went all in, because in the scheme of their recent purchases, $50 million is nothing. 

It will be very interesting to see how Stowe the mountain changes.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> With such a cheap purchase price, does that leave Vail with some extra $$ to go after Jay and Burke and corner the northern Vermont market? Kind of like what Vail did around Lake Tahoe.
> 
> With Jay and Burke's remaining property expansion potential, they could be very attractive.



I'm not convinced that they would want that much in Vermont.  However, Jay could make sense to tap into the Montreal market - especially since they own Whistler.  Stowe would draw from New York and Boston whereas Jay would draw from Montreal.

I still maintain that a Montreal market acquisition makes a lot of sense for Vail.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Whoops.



reading comprehension?

I said it's certainly possible that my source was telling a white lie.  And I said I guess I'd eat crow.  My source was the Director of Marketing for the mountain who used to work for my best friends parents and has remained friends with the family since the early 90's.  Direct comment when ask is that it's all rumor and nothing seriously being discussed.  Guess he was doing a good job of keeping his lips sealed.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> reading comprehension?


Look at what I quoted.  I said "whoops" in reference to your saying "not happening."  Sheesh.

And your source was not the Director of Marketing.  Your source was some guy who claims to have spoken to the Director of Marketing.  

I'm not faulting you for posting information from your "source."  Quite the contrary.  I'm just pointing out that you were given a red herring.  It happens.  No need to be overly defensive.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Look at what I quoted.  I said "whoops" in reference to your saying "not happening."  Sheesh.
> 
> And your source was not the Director of Marketing.  Your source was some guy who claims to have spoken to the Director of Marketing.
> 
> I'm not faulting you for posting information from your "source."  Quite the contrary.  I'm just pointing out that you were given a red herring.  It happens.


That "some guy" has been my best friend since 1990. Who grew up in Stowe and has lived there much of his adult life. The DOM spoke directly to him and said "no deal.". 



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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> That "some guy" has been my best friend since 1990. Who grew up in Stowe and has lived there much of his adult life. The DOM spoke directly to him and said "no deal.".


I am sure that is all true.  I am also sure that your source was not the Director of Marketing as you just stated.  Your buddy got played and so did you.  Nobody's fault.  It's just life.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 21, 2017)

Will one of you be the bigger person and stay on topic! Jesus Christ... put your internet muscles away

As I stated  while back I spoke to guy who is well connected to the mountain and he said it was on.  No one knew for sure until today.


How will this change eastern skiing??


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## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I am sure that is all true.  I am also sure that your source was not the Director of Marketing as you just stated.  Your buddy got played and so did you.  Nobody's fault.  It's just life.


My good you're an idiot sometimes. You aren't sure of shit and are basically being a loser accusing me of lying.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-wise-2407574

Worked at my best friend's parents restaurant in Stowe in the 90s - Olives Bistro.  Hes been working for Stowe for years and is very well known in town. My best friend now owns two restaurants in Stowe. Jeff is a regular customer. The words came directly from his mouth. As I mentioned from the get go, I admitted he could have told a white lie. I also was the first to come back to this thread and admit I got false information.

Now, any other conspiracies you want to drum up in your head VTK or can we move on?

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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

So some additional thoughts on this.  First, to those who had folks on the ground saying that this may happen, they were right and your sources are good.  A deal like this obviously takes time and it cannot be completely secret.  Also, for those that had folks that said it wasn't going to happen, they were right as well....for that time.  Again, the deal that Vail wanted was the whole kit and caboodle.  AIG said no.  So this was the compromise.  It gets Vail in the door.  The ski area at best is a break-even proposition in the short term but Vail wants the real estate eventually.  It is VERY telling that they wanted a destination resort on the east coast and not just a "feeder hill", but settled with what they got.  For now.  

This brings me to my perspective with Vail operating a ski area in my backyard.  First, this is very similar to Vail's takeover of Canyons and eventually Park City.  Vail took over Canyons, on their second attempt, not because they wanted Canyons, but because they wanted Park City.  They took the short term move to get the long term prize.  I think that is the same here.  Take over the ski area and eventually get AIG to sell the rest.  

Second, as to what to expect, I can tell you that the Stowe locals will not at all be happy.  Here, in the capital of cheapness, everyone and their grandmother jumped onto the Epic Pass in 2013 when Vail came to town.  Folks razzed me for not getting it.  But living with the former ASC I knew what was going to happen.  Sure enough these same folks bitched endlessly about crowding, expensive food, expensive rentals, and expensive lessons, the former being the worst.  Park City now on holidays and weekends runs out of parking.  Folks have to park at the high school and ride a bus to the mountain.  Stowe will see a jump in skier and rider days and the current clientele will not be happy.  

As to operations, PCMR saw a big influx of cash two years ago to fix a lot of things.  On my recent visit the lodges and lifts looked great.  I don't see this happening with Stowe because it is already pretty well outfitted.  Maybe replacement of the Toll House lift?  Also expect the same length season....no more for certain.  Out here PCMR used to run a week or two later than it does now.  Vail is very much a "Thanksgiving through Easter" operation.  

As to the impact on the other areas, that will be very interesting.  Utah and Vermont are similar in size as to skier days, but different markets really with the former having many more locals and a bigger draw of tourists from further away.  When Vail came to town, some resorts did not do anything regarding pass prices (Deer Valley, Snowbird, Alta for example).  Snowbasin dropped theirs a lot.  The Vail entrance also prompted Deer Valley, at least in part, to buy Solitude to grow their marketshare.  But what resorts did do was offer more reciprocal deals--Deer Valley, Snowbird, and Alta offer the "Wasatch Benefit" for locals that gets a full passholder free skiing for three days at each other resort.  Solitude and Brighton pushed their "SolBright" pass and dropped the price slightly.  The AltaBird is also now slightly cheaper.  But these resorts already were pretty big and this was a relatively small step.  Regionally, the Mountain Collective and Powder Alliance were both the obvious response to Vail.  

In New England, you already have a fair number of multiple resort pass products with Boyne, POWDR (to a lesser extent), Triple Peaks, and Peaks Resorts.  I don't think you will see those folks change.  You may see a few more independent alliances, like a Mountain Collective, but I don't think too much change.  

As to the one resort to watch, that is Sugarbush.  They have for years relied on Stowe to justify a premium on their pass products.  Now that's gone.  I predict that Sugarbush will continue, if not increase, their "localvore" marketing to, ironically, land more of the Boston and NYC markets.  They will say, "hey, we're the local ski area you love", "we're not as crowded," "we're real," and probably keep pass prices flat for now.  

Just my thoughts.


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## farlep99 (Feb 21, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> reading comprehension?
> 
> I said it's certainly possible that my source was telling a white lie.  And I said I guess I'd eat crow.  My source was the Director of Marketing for the mountain who used to work for my best friends parents and has remained friends with the family since the early 90's.  Direct comment when ask is that it's all rumor and nothing seriously being discussed.  Guess he was doing a good job of keeping his lips sealed.



In all fairness to DHS, I am friends with a few people who are pretty high up the chain at Stowe & they were kept in the dark (they'd be similar level to Director of Marketing).  Everyone around here knew something was going on- but specifics were held tightly.  Which makes sense with a publicly traded company.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Also* looks like the original rumors had an extra 0 in the price. *



This was a big part of the reason why I said that while Vail buying Stowe makes 100% perfect sense IMO, this deal is total BS.  A $500 Million purchase price, even with the golf course and ancillary amenities, was completely flipping' batpoop bonkers.



deadheadskier said:


> I'll eat crow.  *Guess the mountain's director of marketing was running interference by telling people in town the sale was just a rumor with no substance.*



It sure beats going to jail.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> My good you're an idiot sometimes. You aren't sure of shit and are basically being a loser accusing me of lying.


Jesus.  All I said was "whoops" and your proceeded to lose your shit.  Unless you spoke directly with the Director of Marketing, your source for the information is your buddy.  That's just a fact.  Your buddy's source was the Director of Marketing.  See how this works?  It's really not that hard of a concept.

But whatever.  You got played.  It happened to many people up at the mountain.  I can't blame the Director of Marketing for doing his job.  I could blame you for thinking that he owes your buddy more allegiance than his employer, but I was decent enough to refrain from doing so.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

So, net/net, does this really mean that you can buy a Stowe season pass for ~$800 next year and then get a call option on "free" skiing at numerous western resorts?   

Because if so, that's going to be awfully hard to pass up for an awful lot of eastern skiers.   Hell, I like variety way too much to ski 100% of the time at Stowe, even given how much I love Stowe, but for many people on a "ski budget" this will be viewed as a helluva bargain.  Lets say you ski at Stowe about fifteen times, that's $53/ticket - take a week-long trip to Park City or Whistler etc.... and it gets better and better!


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So some additional thoughts on this...


Thanks for sharing those thoughts.  It's interesting to hear from someone who has seen this play out in a similar context.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> So, net/net, does this really mean that you can buy a Stowe season pass for ~$800 next year and then get a call option on "free" skiing at numerous western resorts?


If this happens, it will be very hard to pass up for anyone who makes a trip out west anyway.


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## farlep99 (Feb 21, 2017)

TB- you make some good points, most of which I agree with.  Regarding crowds, I think I said something similar to this in the beginning of this thread-  I'm not sure how much more the mountain (in its current layout) can take.  There's already very limited parking.  This past weekend was JAMMED in town & I don't even know how it went up at the mountain because like most locals I avoided the mountain this weekend. I can imagine what it was like though.  Without a pretty significant expansion in infrastructure the mountain can not really physically handle much larger crowds.  Maybe Vail will get creative around this, I don't know.  It's certainly going to be interesting.

I will say that as a local who'd never spend $1300-$1400 on a pass, I could be swayed to spend $800 or whatever Epic is.  I do Backcountry or Nordic on Saturdays anyway so Sunday afternoons are where it's at.  And powder/sick days.


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## Jully (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the one resort to watch, that is Sugarbush.  They have for years relied on Stowe to justify a premium on their pass products.  Now that's gone.  I predict that Sugarbush will continue, if not increase, their "localvore" marketing to, ironically, land more of the Boston and NYC markets.  They will say, "hey, we're the local ski area you love", "we're not as crowded," "we're real," and probably keep pass prices flat for now.
> 
> Just my thoughts.



I'm not so sure what Sugarbush will do. They already have a lot of cheap pass products out there, just for very specific demographics. I obviously have no idea what the breakdown of the season pass sales looks like between these products, but if not many people are purchasing their expensive single adult, unlimited pass, then it might not change at all as it may well be that most of those passholders are property owners or otherwise too invested.

Regardless of how you slice it though, the unlimited adult pass at SB does look mighty pricey now...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> TB- you make some good points, most of which I agree with.  Regarding crowds, I think I said something similar to this in the beginning of this thread-  I'm not sure how much more the mountain (in its current layout) can take.  There's already very limited parking.  This past weekend was JAMMED in town & I don't even know how it went up at the mountain because like most locals I avoided the mountain this weekend. I can imagine what it was like though.  Without a pretty significant expansion in infrastructure the mountain can not really physically handle much larger crowds.  Maybe Vail will get creative around this, I don't know.  It's certainly going to be interesting.
> 
> I will say that as a local who'd never spend $1300-$1400 on a pass, I could be swayed to spend $800 or whatever Epic is.  I do Backcountry or Nordic on Saturdays anyway so Sunday afternoons are where it's at.  And powder/sick days.



The anticipated crowds will be the biggest gamechanger in my mind.  It will be like the pre-discounted ASC All East Pass versus the discounted All-East Pass where EVERY weekend will be crowded.  Not sure how that will go over with those who bought AIG's very expensive homes expecting a premium product with limited crowds.  FWIW in Park City folks do have an option to avoid crowding and that is Deer Valley with its capped ticket sales.  But if you were at the Colony in Canyons you might not be too thrilled.  That said, Canyons side still remains LESS crowded than PCMR proper.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

Salt Lake City is different in one regard.  The locals who are season pass holders can easily switch allegiances.  But don't the vast majority of season pass holders from Boston or New York already own real estate at either Stowe or Sugarbush?  And if they do, then aren't they more locked in?  Or are there a decent number of season pass holders that just rent or stay in hotels?


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Second, as to what to expect, I can tell you that the Stowe locals will not at all be happy.  Here, in the capital of cheapness, everyone and their grandmother jumped onto the Epic Pass in 2013 when Vail came to town.  Folks razzed me for not getting it.  But living with the former ASC I knew what was going to happen.  Sure enough these same folks bitched endlessly about crowding, expensive food, expensive rentals, and expensive lessons, the former being the worst.  Park City now on holidays and weekends runs out of parking.  Folks have to park at the high school and ride a bus to the mountain.  *Stowe will see a jump in skier and rider days and the current clientele will not be happy*.
> 
> ...
> 
> As to the one resort to watch, that is Sugarbush.  They have for years relied on Stowe to justify a premium on their pass products.  Now that's gone.  I predict that Sugarbush will continue, if not increase, their "localvore" marketing to, ironically, land more of the Boston and NYC markets.  They will say, "hey, we're the local ski area you love", "we're not as crowded," "we're real," and probably keep pass prices flat for now.



I think potential crowds you could see at Stowe with the Epic pass potential price-point would be a very strong selling point for other areas like Sugarbush. Maybe the first year people jump ship to Stowe, but after dealing with crowds I could see some people come back to SB. My prediction is SB either keeps pricing flat or reduces it slightly (maybe ~$50-100). People often point to SB as being one of the pricier places, yet at the same time SB also offers a tremendous amount of pass options now where the age range that is paying full price keeps getting narrower and narrower.

No matter what, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

Jully said:


> I'm not so sure what Sugarbush will do. They already have a lot of cheap pass products out there, just for very specific demographics. I obviously have no idea what the breakdown of the season pass sales looks like between these products, but if not many people are purchasing their expensive single adult, unlimited pass, then it might not change at all as it may well be that most of those passholders are property owners or otherwise too invested.
> 
> Regardless of how you slice it though, the unlimited adult pass at SB does look mighty pricey now...



This year was very interesting because, for whatever reason, Stowe jumped into SB's local 20-30's market, albeit quite late.  I'd be interested to see how that pass sold.  

You're right on about Sugarbush taking what once was a simple two product line (full season pass, midweek season pass), and responding to pricing pressure by fragmenting it so much (full season pass, all round season pass for property owners, midweek full, ME only, ME plus, 20-30's something, Sugar Card, etc.)


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> No matter what, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out.


If I was Sugarbush I would try to form an alliance with a destination western resort.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think potential crowds you could see at Stowe with the Epic pass potential price-point would be a very strong selling point for other areas like Sugarbush. Maybe the first year people jump ship to Stowe, but after dealing with crowds I could see some people come back to SB. My prediction is SB either keeps pricing flat or reduces it slightly (maybe ~$50-100). People often point to SB as being one of the pricier places, yet at the same time SB also offers a tremendous amount of pass options now where the age range that is paying full price keeps getting narrower and narrower.
> 
> No matter what, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out.



I think you're spot on regarding folks flocking to Stowe next season and then leaving.  That happend here.  

One other point: Vail is not big on being involved in local biz organizations and is very corporate when it comes to local relations.  In PC they have a key PR person, but HQ is calling the shots.  Vail also is not big on Ski Utah and does their own thing.  So the Vermont Ski Areas Association/Ski Vermont will likely see less involvement from Stowe.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Salt Lake City is different in one regard.  The locals who are season pass holders can easily switch allegiances.  But don't the vast majority of season pass holders from Boston or New York already own real estate at either Stowe or Sugarbush?  And if they do, then aren't they more locked in?  Or are there a decent number of season pass holders that just rent or stay in hotels?



Yep, that is a big difference.  The local market here is significantly larger and has more options. The tourists are of two varieties--the second home owners who have BIG money and the regular "one or two trips a season" crowd who come here.  It's kind of the inverse of most of Vermont where the locals don't play a big part anymore and the resorts cater to weekenders who come from out of town.  Here, the locals provide more revenue for the ski areas and Utah plates are in a lot of parking lots.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> If I was Sugarbush I would try to form an alliance with a destination western resort.



That's another thing that we might see happen because SB has remained independent for so long.  Guesses as to who they offer a deal with?  Well, maybe Snowbird/Alta.  Both are also independent.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Salt Lake City is different in one regard.  The locals who are season pass holders can easily switch allegiances.  But don't the vast majority of season pass holders from Boston or New York already own real estate at either Stowe or Sugarbush?  And if they do, then aren't they more locked in?  Or are there a decent number of season pass holders that just rent or stay in hotels?



It would be interesting to know the details and break downs. The MRV doesn't exactly have a ton of beds available compared to some other areas, so I'm inclined to think a larger percentage own (or rent seasonally). It is also possible you have a lot of day trippers from surrounding areas. Those people could easily jump ship to Stowe if they are going based only on price. If you compare SB's early season pricing from last year to Epic pricing, you're looking at a $340 difference. Is that $340 premium worth it to avoid crowds? Or do you save the $340, go with Epic and deal with crowds at Stowe but have the added benefit of skiing out west on that same pass?


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

One thing is for certain:  I will be staying tuned to hear what you all are seeing in Stowe and Vermont as this moves forward.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> As to the one resort to watch, that is Sugarbush.  They have for years relied on Stowe to justify a premium on their pass products.  Now that's gone.



Definitely agree that Sugarbush is hurt by Vail/Stowe more-so than any other mountain.

People aren't going to want to hear this, but often in industry, acquisitions beget acquisitions.  It wouldn't shock me if someone else gets bought in the next year or two.   Perhaps SNOW would buy Sugarbush and offer a Sugarbush/Stratton/Mont Tremblant/Steamboat sort of a pass.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

Another interesting angle on this:  the sales agreement was apparently signed on Friday.  The announcement was made this morning.  All of this took place in the middle of one of the biggest ski weeks of the year and before any spring pass sales.  I imagine that this is the buzz on many chair rides this week.  Timing is, indeed, everything.


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## mbedle (Feb 21, 2017)

I am just really surprised that they went forward with the sale without the real estate. I can't see the state allowing anymore real estate at the toll house area other than addressing the parking issue. With mountain road backed up for an hour on the weekends, it really comes down to safety with getting ambulances and emergency vehicles up the resort during the morning rush. Their approved master plan limited real estate development to the 35 acres at spruce peak. If history dictates what Vail usually does after purchasing a place is a bunch of the old lift will get replaced. During the shit show this year they have been opening the toll lift up at 7:15 to get people to park down at toll house. Would see that lift replaced with a quad during the summer and maybe the double and triple also being replaced. Trail expansion is possible under the master plan. I think most of that expansion is on the spruce side with a a smaller pod over near the camp ground. With the 30 something pass this year the resort is exceeding its CCC pretty much every weekend, add the epic pass in and its only going to get worst.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

My real heartbreak is going to come when Vail buys Smuggler's Notch on the cheap, connects the mountains, tears down the old and builds shiny new buildings all over Smuggs.    At least Madonna will finally have a high-speed quad though.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Definitely agree that Sugarbush is hurt by Vail/Stowe more-so than any other mountain.
> 
> People aren't going to want to hear this, but often in industry, acquisitions beget acquisitions.  It wouldn't shock me if someone else gets bought in the next year or two.   Perhaps SNOW would buy Sugarbush and offer a Sugarbush/Stratton/Mont Tremblant/Steamboat sort of a pass.



While nothing is impossible, I just don't see Win selling anytime soon.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> While nothing is impossible, I just don't see Win selling anytime soon.



Agreed.  He is invested in the mountain emotionally.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Agreed.  He is invested in the mountain emotionally.



Exactly. It isn't about the money for him at this point. The MRV is his "home" now and he's not leaving.


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## SnowRock (Feb 21, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I am just really surprised that they went forward with the sale without the real estate. I can't see the state allowing anymore real estate at the toll house area other than addressing the parking issue. With mountain road backed up for an hour on the weekends, it really comes down to safety with getting ambulances and emergency vehicles up the resort during the morning rush. Their approved master plan limited real estate development to the 35 acres at spruce peak. If history dictates what Vail usually does after purchasing a place is a bunch of the old lift will get replaced. During the shit show this year they have been opening the toll lift up at 7:15 to get people to park down at toll house. Would see that lift replaced with a quad during the summer and maybe the double and triple also being replaced. Trail expansion is possible under the master plan. I think most of that expansion is on the spruce side with a a smaller pod over near the camp ground. With the 30 something pass this year the resort is exceeding its CCC pretty much every weekend, add the epic pass in and its only going to get worst.


Well I think that is why there was the big gap between the initial rumors and the deal getting done. I heard they were far apart on a # when it came to complete sale.

Totally agree with what you posted here. I  also heard that the 30s pass sold really well and is one the drivers of the weekend crowds in their opinions (has anyone heard chatter form sugarbush that they lost customers to Stowe with that product?). Maybe net impact of adding Epic won't be quite as much without that product? But agree any increase in skier numbers is going to further stress things. 

In regards to toll house, can they do much without adding snow making? There aren't very many spots number, so they would need to add a structure + lift + snow making is a lot of dollars even for a Vail. Can anything be done down at the Nordic center?


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## Jully (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Definitely agree that Sugarbush is hurt by Vail/Stowe more-so than any other mountain.
> 
> People aren't going to want to hear this, but often in industry, acquisitions beget acquisitions.  It wouldn't shock me if someone else gets bought in the next year or two.   Perhaps SNOW would buy Sugarbush and offer a Sugarbush/Stratton/Mont Tremblant/Steamboat sort of a pass.



Oh I absolutely expect 1-2 more acquisitions before the start of next season even. 

I actually really look forward to a summer full of on-mountain upgrades though (I hope). Holidays have been huge this year. Hopefully the mountains have a good enough year to recover from last year's fiasco and then some.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> I also heard that the 30s pass sold really well and is one the drivers of the weekend crowds in their opinions (has anyone heard chatter form sugarbush that they lost customers to Stowe with that product?).



If SB did, it sure hasn't been a visible impact on the mountain. Keep in mind as well that SB's For 20s pass went on sale way before Stowe announced theirs. And then when Stowe announced their pass that covered you into the early 30s, SB promptly announced a new "early 30s" pass option to compete.


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## benski (Feb 21, 2017)

I believe a large portion of sugarbush skiers are pass holders from Burlington, Waterbury and Montpelier, and the majority of there skiers are Passholders. They are difficulty vulnerable to Stowe's pass prices. I think this year they introduced an early thirties pass to compete with Stowe's only after Sugarbush started selling passes and Stowe released theres.


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## gregnye (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Definitely agree that Sugarbush is hurt by Vail/Stowe more-so than any other mountain.
> 
> People aren't going to want to hear this, but often in industry, acquisitions beget acquisitions.  It wouldn't shock me if someone else gets bought in the next year or two.   Perhaps SNOW would buy Sugarbush and offer a Sugarbush/Stratton/Mont Tremblant/Steamboat sort of a pass.



To be honest I think that Sugarbush is gonna be hurt because of their own stupidity. Don't get me wrong I love the mountain, but they should never have been competing with Stowe. It would be in their best interest to join up with Killington on a pass. As much as Sugarbush tries they are not a fancy resort. They are similar to killington in terms of classy establishment.


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## mbedle (Feb 21, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> Well I think that is why there was the big gap between the initial rumors and the deal getting done. I heard they were far apart on a # when it came to complete sale.
> 
> Totally agree with what you posted here. I  also heard that the 30s pass sold really well and is one the drivers of the weekend crowds in their opinions (has anyone heard chatter form sugarbush that they lost customers to Stowe with that product?). Maybe net impact of adding Epic won't be quite as much without that product? But agree any increase in skier numbers is going to further stress things.
> 
> In regards to toll house, can they do much without adding snow making? There aren't very many spots number, so they would need to add a structure + lift + snow making is a lot of dollars even for a Vail. Can anything be done down at the Nordic center?



The 30 something pass has deffinatly sold very well for Stowe. I've been skiing there for years and the increase in skier visits if very obvious Friday - Sunday. There is a fair amount of parking down at the nordic center, but who wants to take a bus up to the resort. The master plan calls for snow making every trails, except upper starr, goat and glades. Maybe if they put in snow making on easy mile they can finally fix the sanitary sewer line.... Also, the problem with the toll house area is the terrain is VERRRRYYYYY flat and pretty painful on a board. Not that I want this to happen, but Vail's should also focus on getting people over to Spruce Peak and up on the sensation quad. During peak hours on the weekends, it is basically ski on. I also noted on their mast plan that expansion of the Inn at the Mountain is possible. I'm just not sure if that was purchased by Vail or retained by Stowe.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

I still don't fully understand the arguments that "Sugarbush was competing with Stowe" on regular adult passes. Sugarbush's full regular adult season pass was approximately $500 cheaper than Stowe's. Sure SB is the 2nd most expensive in the state...but by a substantial amount (SB was over 20% cheaper). At early purchase pass rates, SB was comparable in price to K from what I remember. I'd like to think the early purchase rate is the most important as hopefully most people buy their passes at that price anyway.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I still don't fully understand the arguments that "Sugarbush was competing with Stowe" on regular adult passes. Sugarbush's full regular adult season pass was approximately $500 cheaper than Stowe's. Sure SB is the 2nd most expensive in the state...but by a substantial amount (SB was over 20% cheaper). At early purchase pass rates, SB was comparable in price to K from what I remember. I'd like to think the early purchase rate is the most important as hopefully most people buy their passes at that price anyway.



They used that to justify a premium on their passes, when compared to Killington or other resorts further south.  This was especially true when ASC was in its final years.  They tried to argue "quality over quantity" when ASC sold $359 blackout passes and $599 unrestricted passes compared to SB's $900 or so passes.


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## snoseek (Feb 21, 2017)

Those cheap pass prices come with a big cost.....remember that when you're shopping for next season.

I too see them scooping up another mountain or two in the next couple years to spread the soon to be metric fuckton of epic skiers. Smuggs? Jay/burke? or just wait for Peaks to crumble?


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## TheArchitect (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That's another thing that we might see happen because SB has remained independent for so long.  Guesses as to who they offer a deal with?  Well, maybe Snowbird/Alta.  Both are also independent.


 
That would be a dream come true and a definite purchase for me.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> They used that to justify a premium on their passes, when compared to Killington or other resorts further south.



I'd understand that if they were charging a premium compared to K and other resorts further south, but I'm not seeing it at the early season rates at least.

Early purchase rates this past year:
SB - $1149
K - $1139
Okemo - $1239

(And just for comparison...Stowe was $1860, so SB was 38% cheaper than that one).

If anything, they seemed to kind of ignore Stowe's regular rates and just try to be in line with the other "expensive" pass offerings in VT.


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## Savemeasammy (Feb 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> My real heartbreak is going to come when Vail buys Smuggler's Notch on the cheap, connects the mountains, tears down the old and builds shiny new buildings all over Smuggs.    At least Madonna will finally have a high-speed quad though.



This is what I wonder about...  Vail can still have their real estate, it will just be on the other side of the notch.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

Savemeasammy said:


> Vail can still have their real estate, it will just be on the other side of the notch.


That's the same thought that I had.  Smuggs may be motivated to sell.  They've been operating the resort on a lean budget for years and years.  At some point they have to start spending money on new lifts.  

The one problem with Smuggs is the location.  It's about 25 minutes farther to drive to than Stowe.  That doesn't sound like a lot, but for some reason it feels like it is a lot further away.  And of course it doesn't have the nice town like Stowe has.  But if Vail can get land and permits, they could do something about that.


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## Savemeasammy (Feb 21, 2017)

Smuggs already has the little base village in place, and I'm sure Vail would be willing to build it up even more.  I'm sure there is plenty of potential on that side for growth.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## 4aprice (Feb 21, 2017)

So this is official now?  Wonder when the new passes and lineups come out.  Epic could now be a player, but would be more interested if they added a couple of more east areas.  It will be interesting to see if Max Pass has any additions or subtractions.  Let the games begin.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## dlague (Feb 21, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> The $50mil number makes sense only because of this nugget...
> 
> "[FONT="]Other facilities such as the Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Mountain Club, Stowe Country Club and certain real estate owned and held for potential future development will be retained by MMC (Mount Mansfield Co)."
> 
> Real estate/potential future development was where any real potential value was for Vail.  I am surprised that they bought it without that.[/FONT]



This is a play by Vail to get skiers to come to their western resorts - period.  This will result in more eastern skiers buying the Epic Pass, Stowe's numbers will rise creating a market for Vail to attract visitors to their bigger full accommodation resorts.  This will definitely stir up the apple cart in New England.


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## Smellytele (Feb 21, 2017)

While it is an enticing thought of getting an epic pass, with only Stowe on it in the east I will look else where. If I got the pass they wouldn't get any more money out of me even if I went West to use it. I have connections with a house at Keystone so I could just crash there. Usually don't eat or drink at the vail resorts either when I am out there except a beer or 2.
I was wondering if they would sell a more expensive eastern epic pass that included Stowe. When they bought the other non-Colorado resorts what was the price of a season pass before and after?


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## EPB (Feb 21, 2017)

dlague said:


> This is a play by Vail to get skiers to come to their western resorts - period.  This will result in more eastern skiers buying the Epic Pass, Stowe's numbers will rise creating a market for Vail to attract visitors to their bigger full accommodation resorts.  This will definitely stir up the apple cart in New England.



I agree. Stowe’s existing clientele is probably the most attractive east coast customer base for Vail to buy. Stowe’s combination of accessibility from NYC, Boston and Montreal presents a huge opportunity to drive incremental Epic Pass sales beyond Stowe’s current season pass base.

With respect to the real estate, my guess is that AIG and Vail disagreed over the effect that Vail’s purchase of Stowe will have on the local real estate market and Stowe’s real estate holdings around the ski area. The real estate guys at AIG aren’t stupid – they’re well aware that this type of purchase will be a boon to Stowe’s real estate prices just like it has been in Park City and other Vail-owned resorts.

Bottom line: this acquisition is a drop in the bucket for a company of Vail’s size, Smuggler’s Notch is compelling (frankly, for traffic mediation more than anything), and once the effect of Vail’s ownership of Stowe is understood, AIG and Vail could re-visit the real estate sale.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> *The one problem with Smuggs is the location.  It's about 25 minutes farther to drive to than Stowe. * That doesn't sound like a lot, but for some reason it feels like it is a lot further away.



I don't think that's a problem at all (unfortunately).

Alternatively, Smuggs is 30 minutes closer to drive to than Stowe (for Quebecois).



eastern powder baby said:


> *once the effect of Vail’s ownership of Stowe is understood, AIG and Vail could re-visit the real estate sale.*



That's certainly a possibility.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 21, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The one problem with Smuggs is the location.  It's about 25 minutes farther to drive to than Stowe.  That doesn't sound like a lot, but for some reason it feels like it is a lot further away.  And of course it doesn't have the nice town like Stowe has.  But if Vail can get land and permits, they could do something about that.



As it stands, the traffic in Stowe village, the Mtn Rd, and the parking at the resort are already a total shit show on many weekends. How would cutting 25 minutes of drive time to Smuggs by having those people drive to and park at Stowe instead would be good for anybody? 
If Stowe and Smuggs were ever efficiently interconnected and under the same pass, the only way I see it working is that the Chittenden County crowd would park primarily on the Smuggs side. That would free up A LOT of traffic pressure on the Stowe side.


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## Jully (Feb 21, 2017)

I still personally feel that the best west option for the east is the Max pass. I think that Max will be the entity that represents the biggest competitor to Vail's eastern move and to a lesser extent the resorts tied to it. 

How many people skiing K for $1,000 plus a $250 Max add on to go west will now ski Stowe and out west for > $400 less? I legitimately don't know how big that number is going to be, but I think that question (for all Max Add-On resorts) is where the biggest potential for shake up in the eastern ski world lies. 

It is not a major innovation to have western options on an eastern pass. The Max pass was really the pass that started that game (MC to a lesser extent), so I'm not sure how many eastern only skiers (like a lot of Sugarbush's skiers) Vail will gain versus just taking market share from other passes with western options.


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## from_the_NEK (Feb 21, 2017)

Note:
At a bit under an hour, the drive times to Stowe vs Smuggs from Burlington is almost exactly the same with no traffic. However, traffic could easily add 20+ minutes on the Stowe drive.


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## farlep99 (Feb 21, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> Bottom line: this acquisition is a drop in the bucket for a company of Vail’s size, Smuggler’s Notch is compelling (frankly, for traffic mediation more than anything), and once the effect of Vail’s ownership of Stowe is understood, AIG and Vail could re-visit the real estate sale.



Great point & I think a re-visit of the real estate in the future by Vail & MMC is inevitable. Because other than increasing the number of Epic passes sold, what is Vail really buying? Yeah they can run the resort & make some money on that, but there isn't exactly exciting growth potential there. Again, how much more can they grow skier visits/profits/etc with the current infrastructure? Maybe a little. So while I don't think it will be losing the company any money (although if there are more winters like last year there will be down years) it's not really a big gainer either. Of course other than the increased Epic pass sales & presumed trips out west to Vail owned resorts.


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## Jully (Feb 21, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> Great point & I think a re-visit of the real estate in the future by Vail & MMC is inevitable. Because other than increasing the number of Epic passes sold, what is Vail really buying? Yeah they can run the resort & make some money on that, but there isn't exactly exciting growth potential there. Again, how much more can they grow skier visits/profits/etc with the current infrastructure? Maybe a little. So while I don't think it will be losing the company any money (although if there are more winters like last year there will be down years) it's not really a big gainer either. Of course other than the increased Epic pass sales & presumed trips out west to Vail owned resorts.



There definitely has to be a more in the works for Vail. This is too unlike the rest of their acquisitions thus far.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

Here is a complete crackpot theory:  The deal for everything including the real estate was agreed to, but the real estate end of things was going to hold up the deal.  Vail wanted to run Stowe in time to set season pass prices for next season, so the closing on the entire resort is happening in stages.


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## Edd (Feb 21, 2017)

Considering Vail's vast ski area portfolio and what they're capable of, buying Smuggs and combining the two makes a lot of sense. Given the location and average snowfall, that area is one of the safer eastern bets. And Smuggs is ripe for a total redo of lifts and lodging.


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## benski (Feb 21, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> Great point & I think a re-visit of the real estate in the future by Vail & MMC is inevitable. Because other than increasing the number of Epic passes sold, what is Vail really buying? Yeah they can run the resort & make some money on that, but there isn't exactly exciting growth potential there. Again, how much more can they grow skier visits/profits/etc with the current infrastructure? Maybe a little. So while I don't think it will be losing the company any money (although if there are more winters like last year there will be down years) it's not really a big gainer either. Of course other than the increased Epic pass sales & presumed trips out west to Vail owned resorts.



Buying the real estate would be expensive. Unless having mountain ops and real estate under separate ownership is a large problem, buying the real estate is a big gamble. Does anyone know of other resorts where real estate and mountain ops are owned by two different people?


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## mbedle (Feb 21, 2017)

benski said:


> Buying the real estate would be expensive. Unless having mountain ops and real estate under separate ownership is a large problem, buying the real estate is a big gamble. Does anyone know of other resorts where real estate and mountain ops are owned by two different people?



Isn't killington like that?


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## 4aprice (Feb 21, 2017)

Jully said:


> I still personally feel that the best west option for the east is the Max pass. I think that Max will be the entity that represents the biggest competitor to Vail's eastern move and to a lesser extent the resorts tied to it.
> 
> How many people skiing K for $1,000 plus a $250 Max add on to go west will now ski Stowe and out west for > $400 less? I legitimately don't know how big that number is going to be, but I think that question (for all Max Add-On resorts) is where the biggest potential for shake up in the eastern ski world lies.
> 
> It is not a major innovation to have western options on an eastern pass. The Max pass was really the pass that started that game (MC to a lesser extent), so I'm not sure how many eastern only skiers (like a lot of Sugarbush's skiers) Vail will gain versus just taking market share from other passes with western options.



It all depends where you want to ski or vacation.  We chose Max Pass because it gave us options in the places we ski including Vermont/New Hampshire/Utah and Colorado.  We bought the pass, then planned the trips.  Its been a fun season so far.

But in the future I may want to travel to the Epic resorts and the addition of Stowe is a step in the direction that would make me consider buying it.  Certainly if one has thoughts of skiing in Tahoe, Epic is worth it.  Another eastern resort might swing the pendulum.  

My wife and I are trying to swing an Aspen trip with some very good friends one of these years, so Mountain Collective would be the way to go on that one and its got some great partner options as well.  

I don't have a problem with these travel and vacation promotions.  Seems to me that with a little time and research you can really achieve a good variety at a decent price.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## nhskier1969 (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I think potential crowds you could see at Stowe with the Epic pass potential price-point would be a very strong selling point for other areas like Sugarbush. Maybe the first year people jump ship to Stowe, but after dealing with crowds I could see some people come back to SB. My prediction is SB either keeps pricing flat or reduces it slightly (maybe ~$50-100). People often point to SB as being one of the pricier places, yet at the same time SB also offers a tremendous amount of pass options now where the age range that is paying full price keeps getting narrower and narrower.
> 
> No matter what, it will be interesting to watch how this plays out.



Stowe has me thinking.  I am a SB pass holder family of four.  My family decided to forgo the trip out west each year and instead do a seasonal rental and season passes at SB.  While my kids turn 13 next season and I will not be able to get the family season pass discount next year.  My wife and I were thinking about trying stowe because we will be able to go out west now and have lift tickets covered.  but also my season pass cost at SB is going to increase over $700 dollars for the family next year.  Thats a lot.


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## jaybird (Feb 21, 2017)

VT is facing huge economic challenges with their existing programs and funding.

This Smuggs specultation is hilarious.
Did we somehow miss news of a Repeal of Act 250?

Without a $2M/bear fee or an Environmental Protection Fee, MTN ain't going to install as much as a zip line over Sterling Pond.

Look for an increase in VT food and beverage taxes this spring.


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## dlague (Feb 21, 2017)

So Stowe will no longer be part of the Mountain Collective Pass so that Pass Product will lose some luster in the Northeast!


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## Jcb890 (Feb 21, 2017)

As someone who has the MAX Pass and has traveled West this year, I am all in favor of this.  Stowe is very nice and I enjoyed riding there a lot using my VT Ski 3 Pass last season.  Otherwise, their ticket rates are just too expensive - the only other reasonable option is the Club Days (not a bad deal).

Until this season, I have always just hunted for deals and never ridden anywhere outside of New England.  The MAX Pass has provided us with some nice local diversity with their New England options and we have also traveled out West twice this season - Copper in Colorado and Big Sky in Montana.  To begin the season, we only planned to use the MAX Pass in New England.

Both trips were fantastic experiences and I hope to be able to travel West next season also.

Maybe this drives MAX to add more resorts in New England and out West - that would be great.
Maybe this drives another collective pass in New England and possible some West - that would be great.

The negative impacts of this will be felt by those who live in/near Stowe and ski/ride there locally.  Crowds will rise, no other way around it.  Especially if the EPIC Pass stays at $800, that's 1/2 price for a Stowe season pass plus basically free lift tickets to some Western resorts.  That makes an awful lot of sense.


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## 4aprice (Feb 21, 2017)

dlague said:


> So Stowe will no longer be part of the Mountain Collective Pass so that Pass Product will lose some luster in the Northeast!



The roll out of Pass products coming out next month is going to be very interesting.  We'll know more in about 2 weeks.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## dlague (Feb 21, 2017)

jaybird said:


> VT is facing huge economic challenges with their existing programs and funding.
> 
> This Smuggs specultation is hilarious.
> Did we somehow miss news of a Repeal of Act 250?
> ...



$2M chump change to Vail!


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## EPB (Feb 21, 2017)

jaybird said:


> VT is facing huge economic challenges with their existing programs and funding.
> 
> This Smuggs specultation is hilarious.
> Did we somehow miss news of a Repeal of Act 250?
> ...



There's no need to construct a lift over Sterling pond - it would get pretty close though. 

I agree with your sentiments on VT's government budget situation. The government is very lucky that so many people like to visit and spend money in their state. It would be in their best interest to be pro-development. I suspect they'll try to squeeze as much out of Vail and its customers as they can before ultimately letting them do most of what they would want. It will be interesting to follow.


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## SnowRock (Feb 21, 2017)

Yup selfishly I liked Stowe on the MC... with the 3rd day there and the amount of days I am up there it was a great product for me to combine with a western trip. I will consider the Epic Pass as well, especially with Whistler in the mix. Wonder if Sugarbush could be a MC add? Would assume they don't want to lose the east completely from that pass. 

But again... mountain road and parking. No local but as someone that is up there 4-5 times a year, this season has been a schit show.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 21, 2017)

Additional details in this article from Seven Days: 

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessa...purchase-stowe-mountain-resort-for-50-million


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## ss20 (Feb 21, 2017)

1.  Given it's late February I'm sure the major resorts have figured out what their season pass prices will be next year, and the marketing team is printing up the signs and posters already.  No way mountains are going to re-evaluate their pass prices in the two weeks before pass prices are rolled out.  No way.  It's pretty set in stone, I'd imagine.  And a competing multi-mountain pass in the NE is out-of-the-question given the timeframe here.

What Vail did makes total sense- wait till the other mountains are sitting pretty, then surprise them when it's too late to make any big changes.  

2. I see a total pissing match coming between Vail and AIG.  They have no reason to help each other.  Vail wants people to go to Stowe then go out west.  To do that they won't have lodging deals with AIG and their on-hill properties.  Why would they?  Vail wants that money spent out west in Vail hotels.  High(er) day ticket prices and no stay/ski deals.  Whatever it takes to sell Epic passes.  

3. You are crazy if you think there'll be any real improvement to the hill.  Stowe is modern enough for Vail.  Toll House replacement is ridiculous.  That lift is pretty new, and replacing it will not bring traffic down there without more development.  As for more development...this is Vermont...so yeah, that's not happening.

4.  Parking issues?  If you drive to a mountain in Vail's portfolio, you aren't fitting into their business model, and aren't worth shit to them, so forget about any improvement there.  


What's interesting here is Vail wanted the East Coast with a major resort...that we know.  They got the hill, not the "resort" aspect though.  So do they treat it as a feeder hill?  Or as a resort (where they don't own the lodging)?

I bet whatever does happen for Vail the next couple of years will decide Vail's future in the EC market.  In ten years perhaps this will all be a failure, with Stowe sold to another operator.  Maybe Vail will have another destination resort.  Maybe they'll go the feeder hill route.  Definitely testing the waters in a big way.


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## cdskier (Feb 21, 2017)

ss20 said:


> 1.  Given it's late February I'm sure the major resorts have figured out what their season pass prices will be next year, and the marketing team is printing up the signs and posters already.  No way mountains are going to re-evaluate their pass prices in the two weeks before pass prices are rolled out.  No way.  It's pretty set in stone, I'd imagine.  And a competing multi-mountain pass in the NE is out-of-the-question given the timeframe here.
> 
> What Vail did makes total sense- wait till the other mountains are sitting pretty, then surprise them when it's too late to make any big changes.



I disagree with this. Last year SB put their passes on sale on 3/18. That gives them almost a month to make changes if they wanted to (granted I'm still in the boat where I wouldn't expect any major price changes from SB at least for the first year to see what happens). Even if they had printed up marketing materials already, the cost of re-printing them vs the cost of potential lost business if they realized they over-priced their pass would be easy to justify.



> 2. I see a total pissing match coming between Vail and AIG.  They have no reason to help each other.  Vail wants people to go to Stowe then go out west.  To do that they won't have lodging deals with AIG and their on-hill properties.  Why would they?  Vail wants that money spent out west in Vail hotels.  High(er) day ticket prices and no stay/ski deals.  Whatever it takes to sell Epic passes.



This is an interesting point and I've had that thought on my mind too a bit. I wonder if there's anything in the purchase contract where they specifically state they will still do ski and stay deals. There very well could be. If not, I'm still not sure they would each tell each other to basically f**k off. Doing so and annoying customers at Stowe isn't in Vail's best interests imo. If people have a bad experience at Stowe, they might not simply go west and instead might just go to another local choice instead the following year. Conversely, AIG wants Vail to do well with Stowe as it helps the value of their lodging and real estate properties.


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## ss20 (Feb 21, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Doing so and annoying customers at Stowe isn't in Vail's best interests imo. If people have a bad experience at Stowe, they might not simply go west and instead might just go to another local choice instead the following year.



Or would the annoyed customers go west to seek a better experience to one of the destinations on their Epic Pass...?  This is Stowe clientele still, so money isn't an issue for most of the existing passholder base.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 21, 2017)

ss20 said:


> 4.  Parking issues?  If you drive to a mountain in Vail's portfolio, you aren't fitting into their business model, and aren't worth shit to them, so forget about any improvement there.


Yeah, nobody drives to Stowe, Wilmot, Alton Alps, or Mt. Brighton.  Nobody who's anybody, that is.  /sarcasm


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## snoseek (Feb 21, 2017)

You can expect paid parking...not all but if you want to get in somewhat close you will pay.


Vail already knows if this is a good decision or not...they're likely all in on this I'm sure. They will do whatever it takes to make a quality ski experience that entices people. It may piss off locals and the type of skier that post here...but you better believe they will appeal to the masses. This is what they do and they're very good at it.


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## yeggous (Feb 21, 2017)

For the Bush, joining the Max Pass is the obvious move. It might even be enticing for them to test the waters with the White Mountain Super Pass. It's the other major multi-mountain player.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## KD7000 (Feb 21, 2017)

mbedle said:


> There is a fair amount of parking down at the nordic center, but who wants to take a bus up to the resort.


If I'm with my family, I'd much rather park in a lower lot and get a bus up that drops me right at Spruce, rather than have to haul all my crap over the silly transfer gondola.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> I agree with your sentiments on VT's government budget situation. The government is very lucky that so many people like to visit and spend money in their state. *It would be in their best interest to be pro-development.*



LOL.  Good luck with that!  Vermont is going to hell-in-a-handbasket quicker than perhaps any state in the union.  It's almost as if the politicians want to kill the Golden Goose, and actively invent new ways to do so.  Worse?  They're being further encouraged to do so by voters rather than backing away from this eventual and reliably predictable financial destruction.  The future will not be kind to State of Vermont.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 21, 2017)

ss20 said:


> What's interesting here is Vail wanted the East Coast with a major resort...that we know. * They got the hill, not the "resort" aspect though.  So do they treat it as a feeder hill?  Or as a resort (where they don't own the lodging)?*



It's a total win-win for Vail.  They get the ski operations and can cobble their pass together with Stowe as a big, fat, eastern carrot, with which to get eastern people to ski their myriad western resorts.  As has been noted prior, they can always try to purchase the other toys at a later date.  I think those who think this doesn't make sense are not aware of US population dynamics and how such a large portion of the US population lives from NY, PA, NJ, up through New England.  The "mountains of population" are in the corner of the map (below) where Stowe draws from.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 21, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> There's no need to construct a lift over Sterling pond - it would get pretty close though.
> 
> I agree with your sentiments on VT's government budget situation. The government is very lucky that so many people like to visit and spend money in their state. It would be in their best interest to be pro-development. I suspect they'll try to squeeze as much out of Vail and its customers as they can before ultimately letting them do most of what they would want. It will be interesting to follow.



Not to get any more political, but you're thinking too logically for Vermont. 

Signed, 

Vermont Refugee


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## farlep99 (Feb 22, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> There's no need to construct a lift over Sterling pond - it would get pretty close though.
> 
> I agree with your sentiments on VT's government budget situation. The government is very lucky that so many people like to visit and spend money in their state. It would be in their best interest to be pro-development. I suspect they'll try to squeeze as much out of Vail and its customers as they can before ultimately letting them do most of what they would want. It will be interesting to follow.


You do realize that your lift plan here goes directly over the Long Trail?  I think there might be a slight opposition to this type of plan


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## EPB (Feb 22, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> You do realize that your lift plan here goes directly over the Long Trail?  I think there might be a slight opposition to this type of plan



Well aware. I’d expect a huge amount of anger over that, too…

Re: VT politics – I agree with BG and Boss. I was trying to tread lightly, because there’s nothing worse than debating politics on a ski forum. Lets just say I used conditional language for a reason.

I’d see Vail coming in as a budgetary blessing, but I don’t expect Montpelier to see it that way – granted, I’m from the Granite State, so that is not my area of expertise. Vail potentially making a huge investment in Stowe parallels the Balsams development in a way. I’d probably pony up the bonds for Les Otten if I were running the state of NH -  not because I think he’s a genius and is going to save the Great North Woods, but because there’s a high probability that nobody will seriously consider investing 9 figures in the area, all at once, ever again.

The money will talk, I have no idea whether the state of VT will listen.


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## gnardawg (Feb 22, 2017)

I'll throw my $0.02 in here - I've been a regular Killington skier - wouldn't call it my home mountain but in the past 7 years I've skied at Killington 36% of my days - Usually I buy some K tickets and this year I got a Max Pass + K tickets.  I've only been to Stowe one time in my life. 

I love Killington but if the Epic Pass includes Stowe and is less the $1k I'm buying that - it's the exact same time to drive from my house to K1 as it is to Stowe. Sorry Beast.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 22, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> There's no need to construct a lift over Sterling pond - it would get pretty close though.



Part of the rumor swirling this winter — that Vail would also buy Smuggler's Notch Resort, the ski area just over the mountain from Stowe, in Jeffersonville — was pure fiction.

"I can officially squash that rumor right now," Mike Chait, public relations director at Smugglers' Notch, said last month as the rumor gained traction.

The owner of Smuggler's, Bill Stritzler, authorized Chait to dispel the rumor.

"He said anything you hear about Smugglers' in negotiation with Vail can be considered sincerely fake news,” Chait explained.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> You do realize that your lift plan here goes directly over the Long Trail? * I think there might be a slight opposition to this type of plan*



Though there shouldn't be, it's a 300 mile trail and we'd literally be talking about perhaps a 100 yard section for heaven's sake, but of course, you're correct.  These people will file lawsuits if you intend to cut a single tree.  They are not the conscientious and respectful stewards of the environment that they purport to be, they are bullies and self-righteous "religious" ideologues with a cult-like mentality,  who ironically & unwittingly often do more harm than good to the environmental causes they support.

In this case, however, their silly, self-righteous, histrionics will lead to the outcome that I support (i.e. no Stowe/Smuggs merger), so.... go them.



eastern powder baby said:


> *I’d see Vail coming in as a budgetary blessing, but I don’t expect Montpelier to see it that way*



I have a theory that this is perhaps why Vail bought the ski operations for $50M, and not the entire operation.  I'm not at all confident in this theory, but I think there's at least a 10% chance it has some merit.

  It would be cagey on Vail's part if they thought perhaps the government would put up roadblocks to their in toto purchase since the folks running State of Vermont have a, "big company = bad people" mentality.  I wonder if Vail thought this was the safest way to get this transaction through.   Then, a few years from now, once people are happy with Vail (or more succinctly, not angry with them), they come back for the bigger bite of the apple and buy the entire thing.  Because, IMO, that's going to happen.  There has to be a very good reason why the purchase was not in its' entirety.  Either AIG thought Vail was undervaluing it, but still wanted out of ski ops, or Vail thought they couldnt get the deal done in its' entirely due to the political reasons I mentioned, or some other reason....... but as many have mentioned, this deal is atypical for them.


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## jaybird (Feb 22, 2017)

KD7000 said:


> If I'm with my family, I'd much rather park in a lower lot and get a bus up that drops me right at Spruce, rather than have to haul all my crap over the silly transfer gondola.



Right On !

Keep in mind that Gomez' graphic is not representative of skier population density .. Nationally estimated at 10% of Total US.
In many regions outside of the NE, despite the smaller density, the skier percentage is much higher.

Curious, whether MTN will expand mountain bike activity on Mansfield. That's where the real growth and density lies.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have a theory that this is perhaps why Vail bought the ski operations for $50M, and not the entire operation.  I'm not at all confident in this theory, but I think there's at least a 10% chance it has some merit.
> 
> It would be cagey on Vail's part if they thought perhaps the government would put up roadblocks to their in toto purchase since the folks running State of Vermont have a, "big company = bad people" mentality.  I wonder if Vail thought this was the safest way to get this transaction through.   Then, a few years from now, once people are happy with Vail (or more succinctly, not angry with them), they come back for the bigger bite of the apple and buy the entire thing.  Because, IMO, that's going to happen.  There has to be a very good reason why the purchase was not in its' entirety.  Either AIG thought Vail was undervaluing it, but still wanted out of ski ops, or Vail thought they couldnt get the deal done in its' entirely due to the political reasons I mentioned, or some other reason....... but as many have mentioned, this deal is atypical for them.



Interesting quote in the VTDigger article on the purchase from Blaise Carrig at Vail:


> He said Vail did not pursue the real estate component of Stowe resort because it’s not the company’s area of expertise.
> 
> “Our core business is really in operating the ski mountain business. That’s really what we have been focusing on,” Carrig said.



That statement surprised me a bit.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Part of the rumor swirling this winter — that Vail would also buy Smuggler's Notch Resort, the ski area just over the mountain from Stowe, in Jeffersonville — was pure fiction.
> 
> "I can officially squash that rumor right now," Mike Chait, public relations director at Smugglers' Notch, said last month as the rumor gained traction.
> 
> ...



Haven't we learned that denials don't mean much?


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## EPB (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Haven't we learned that denials don't mean much?



They have all the incentive in the world to say that Smuggs isn’t for sale. It shouldn’t be difficult to see. Which attitude is likely to get you a better price from Vail:

Option 1: “Wow! This is great! We’d be lucky to have Vail buy is one day!”
Option 2: “We’re not for sale. You’re going to have to blow us away to pry the resort from our hands.”

This is not to say I think there’s a high likelihood that Stowe/Smuggs gets connected. I would say, however, that the odds have gone up significantly. For example, moving from a 2% likelihood to a 10% likelihood is a significant jump. Still a low probability.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> They have all the incentive in the world to say that Smuggs isn’t for sale.



The owner's pushing 80.  I would not find it shocking were it sold soon regardless of who the acquirer might be.  If I win the PowerBall tomorrow night, I'm making a bid!


----------



## dlague (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Though there shouldn't be, it's a 300 mile trail and we'd literally be talking about perhaps a 100 yard section for heaven's sake, but of course, you're correct.  These people will file lawsuits if you intend to cut a single tree.  They are not the conscientious and respectful stewards of the environment that they purport to be, they are bullies and self-righteous "religious" ideologues with a cult-like mentality,  who ironically & unwittingly often do more harm than good to the environmental causes they support.
> 
> In this case, however, their silly, self-righteous, histrionics will lead to the outcome that I support (i.e. no Stowe/Smuggs merger), so.... go them.
> 
> ...



Vail just wants the pass holders - I do not see them as thinking full blown resort.  There is literally no advertising for eastern skiing here or at local ski shows as in zero exhibitors from the east.  I have seen ads for Banff, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Utah etc. but never for anything back east.  However, I can see Vail marketing to the Northeast and placing ads to draw people out west.  The sales pitch at next years ski show with be like handing candy out, but not everyone will bite.


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## dlague (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Interesting quote in the VTDigger article on the purchase from Blaise Carrig at Vail:
> 
> 
> That statement surprised me a bit.



They want the pass holders and that's it!


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## EPB (Feb 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> They want the pass holders and that's it!



My merger hypothesis is predicated on overcrowding mediation. It’s rare to have a whole second ski area at your disposal if your skier traffic shoots through the roof. That can raise the amount of pass holders they can accommodate to your point.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

Well, speaking of business climate, our Progressive Party state auditor has weighed in on the sale of Stowe to Vail.  He made this comment in the Vermont Digger article about the sale:
_The Stowe Mountain Resort leases some of the most iconic and valuable public lands in the state. The current lease terms are almost 50 years old and are out of date. There is reason to believe that Vermonters are not receiving a fair return for the lease of these unique public assets. According to the terms of the lease, the sale of the resort has to be approved by the State. This is a rare opportunity for the State to use its leverage to revise the lease terms._


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

dlague said:


> They want the pass holders and that's it!



I agree and made this point as well shortly after the details of the deal were announced. I still find the statement from Carrig surprising as from the comment it makes it almost sound like the Stowe deal is the "typical" deal they would want to do while all the other deals that include real estate are the "atypical" ones. Meanwhile most of us "outsiders" view it as the opposite. 

I think in the Stowe deal they would have definitely taken the real estate too for the right price, however they simply didn't want to spend what AIG wanted or AIG was firm in not wanting to get rid of the real estate period. The statement is then more of a cover in the sense of "well we didn't want it anyway so we don't care that we didn't get it."


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, speaking of business climate, our Progressive Party state auditor has weighed in on the sale of Stowe to Vail.  He made this comment in the Vermont Digger article about the sale:
> _The Stowe Mountain Resort leases some of the most iconic and valuable public lands in the state. The current lease terms are almost 50 years old and are out of date. There is reason to believe that Vermonters are not receiving a fair return for the lease of these unique public assets. According to the terms of the lease, the sale of the resort has to be approved by the State. This is a rare opportunity for the State to use its leverage to revise the lease terms._


What does this mean?  It sounds like it means they want to charge more for the leasing of the land.  If the current lease terms are almost 50 years old, that would mean there is about 49 more years remaining on the lease terms since they are generally 99 year leases, correct?


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## Jully (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, speaking of business climate, our Progressive Party state auditor has weighed in on the sale of Stowe to Vail.  He made this comment in the Vermont Digger article about the sale:
> _The Stowe Mountain Resort leases some of the most iconic and valuable public lands in the state. The current lease terms are almost 50 years old and are out of date. There is reason to believe that Vermonters are not receiving a fair return for the lease of these unique public assets. According to the terms of the lease, the sale of the resort has to be approved by the State. This is a rare opportunity for the State to use its leverage to revise the lease terms._



Oh boy!! This could be real fun.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> What does this mean?  It sounds like it means they want to charge more for the leasing of the land.  If the current lease terms are almost 50 years old, that would mean there is about 49 more years remaining on the lease terms since they are generally 99 year leases, correct?



The current lease goes to 2057.  The state gets a percentage of ticket sales.  

The auditor thinks that it is a good idea for the state's economy to tell businesses that the state has no intention of honoring its contractual agreements reached with businesses.  He has been advocating that the leases be ripped up since he released this report: http://auditor.vermont.gov/sites/auditor/files/documents/Final SAO Report on Ski Resort Leases.pdf

Because, you know... the state didn't have lawyers or anything like that when they entered into the leases.

Frankly, skiing is seen as a rich white person's sport.  That's an irresistable target for the Progressive Party.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> What does this mean?  It sounds like it means they want to charge more for the leasing of the land.  If the current lease terms are almost 50 years old, that would mean there is about 49 more years remaining on the lease terms since they are generally 99 year leases, correct?



Some info from a "non-audit report" performed by the "office of the Vermont State Auditor" (http://auditor.vermont.gov/sites/auditor/files/documents/Final SAO Report on Ski Resort Leases.pdf)



> A key element of the leases is that the sole authority to extend the contracts rests with the resorts. This
> creates a situation where the ski resorts have long-term leases that range from 50 to 100 years (see Table
> 2). For example, Killington ski resort had an initial lease of 10 years, from 1960 to 1970, with an option to
> extend the lease nine times for a maximum term of 100 years. The State has no authority to deny or amend
> requested extensions absent certain breaches of contract.



Edit: And I see VTK posted the same report while I was typing up my response.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> What does this mean?  It sounds like it means they want to charge more for the leasing of the land.  If the current lease terms are almost 50 years old, that would mean there is about 49 more years remaining on the lease terms since they are generally 99 year leases, correct?



I think it means the state can block the sale of Mt. Mansfield if it wants. The state can ask for anything it wants as long as Vail will likely still make a profit. I would guess it is looking to protect either increase the rent on the land or protect Stowes employees.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Frankly, skiing is seen as a rich white person's sport.  That's an irresistable target for the Progressive Party.



Especially if they can slip a 15 dollar an hour minimum wage and guaranteed maternity leave into the contract. But why not go for it. AIG decided to give the state the right to stop a deal. Both parties in the original deal are complicit in letting the state rip up the old deal.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

A couple of things:
1) The auditor's report fails to recognize that operating a ski resort is much more expensive than it used to be.  The current Stowe lease was entered into in the 1960's when snowmaking was not the massive expense that it is today.
2) The Stowe lease calls for a percentage of not just ticket sales, but also for food and beverage and certain retail sales as well.
3) The state gets paid whether the ski area loses money or not.  The only risk to the state is the amount that they receive.

I'd love to see Vail tell the state that the deal is off if the lease terms are made more onerous.  Something tells me that Vail won't do that.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, speaking of business climate, our Progressive Party state auditor has weighed in on the sale of Stowe to Vail.  He made this comment in the Vermont Digger article about the sale:
> _The *Stowe Mountain Resort leases some of the most iconic and valuable public lands in the state. The current lease terms are almost 50 years old and are out of date. There is reason to believe that Vermonters are not receiving a fair return for the lease of these unique public assets. According to the terms of the lease, the sale of the resort has to be approved by the State. This is a rare opportunity for the State to use its leverage to revise the lease terms.*_



Annnnnnnnddddddddddddd.................there you have it.     All too predictable.










Jcb890 said:


> *What does this mean?*



It means leftist politicians who "did" nothing to "earn" anything, want to dip their hands into the pockets of businesses that create jobs and earn revenue, and extract even more money from them.  

 Make no mistake, EVERY other business who seeks to invest in Vermont and bring jobs to Vermonters, not just in the ski industry by the way, will read those words and be afraid to invest in Vermont.  You can set your watch by this crap.



VTKilarney said:


> Frankly, *skiing is seen as a rich white person's sport.  That's an irresistable target for the Progressive Party*.



This too of course.  The crooked politicians will threaten to attack and demonize them if they don't "play along".


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

I picked up on something interesting that the auditor said, which is this:
_According to the terms of the lease, the sale of the resort has to be approved by the State. This is a rare opportunity for the State to use its leverage to revise the lease terms._

Notice what he didn't say.  He didn't say that if the resort is sold the lease states that the terms of the lease will be re-opened.  So it appears that all the state can do is to approve or disapprove a sale.  Presumably, this was to avoid a ski area being sold to an entity that did not have the financial or institutional capacity to effectively run a ski area.  Vail is about as rock solid an operator as you can get.

So the auditor wants to use the state's ability to disapprove a sale as mere blackmail to renegotiate the terms of the lease.  How classy.  If I was Vail, I would tell them that the lease is not subject to renegotiation.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> *If I was Vail, I would tell them that the lease is not subject to renegotiation.*



Better yet, kill the deal and buy in New Hampshire instead.  

Then announce the expansion and creation of New Hampshire jobs, and blow $50,000 on an ad campaign (advertising is relatively cheap in Vermont) in Vermont explicitly stating why it's New Hampshire getting this infusion in $$$$$ and jobs and not Vermont, and naming the Vermont politicians that screwed this up.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Annnnnnnnddddddddddddd.................there you have it.     All too predictable.



Vail has a reputation for poor treatment of workers and AIG has been investing a lot so the state is risking hurting there economy be allowing the deal.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> *Especially if they can slip a 15 dollar an hour minimum wage and guaranteed maternity leave into the contract. But why not go for it.*



Do you have any clue what $15 an hour would do to lift ticket prices?



benski said:


> Vail has a reputation for poor treatment of workers and AIG has been investing a lot so *the state is risking hurting there economy be allowing the deal.*


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do you have any clue what $15 an hour would do to lift ticket prices?



Not much. The 3-4 lifties at a lift only collectively make $480 a day at 15 dollars an hour. 120 per 8 hour day for janitors, groomers and parking attendants . The rest are uninfected. I think the marginal costs from all of those come out to less then 2 dollars per skier visit assuming those are kept to the minimum necessary avoid lines, filth and ice.


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## EPB (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> It means leftist politicians who "did" nothing to "earn" anything, want to dip their hands into the pockets of businesses that create jobs and earn revenue, and extract even more money from them.



Except the oil and gas industry. The state did the noble thing a few years ago and banned fracking - despite the fact that there is no evidence any oil exists under Vermont... This really is rich though. It's as if the state aspires to become the first in the union to survive with no business bigger than a mom & pop shop. As suggested earlier, this should be a blessing for a state that could use all of the tourism and property tax $$$ from a Vail-operated resort.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> Not much. The 3-4 lifties at a lift only collectively make $480 a day at 15 dollars an hour. 120 per 8 hour day for janitors, groomers and parking attendants . The rest are uninfected. I think the marginal costs from all of those come out to less then 2 dollars per skier visit assuming those are kept to the minimum necessary avoid lines, filth and ice.


I don't think people realize the effect of a $15/hour minimum wage.  They just see a raise to the lowest common denominator and lose their minds about how great it is.

A company like McDonald's sees that and realizes there is no way they can compete in the current market at current prices.  So, they either raise prices for their goods or services, or they get rid of the cost which is going up (human help) and replace it by automated kiosks.  Instead of a few people being employed (at a job which was never supposed to support a family anyways), you now have higher prices and/or less people employed and replaced by computers/automation.

So, you tell me, how does $15/hour minimum wage help?  If the cost of goods/services goes up while only the lowest common denominator is making more money, the other classes of income get screwed and even these lower wage workers get screwed because companies will cut corners and go out of their way to not pay these people $15/hour.

Having minimum wage go up is fine.  It needs to every once in a while as inflation and cost of living goes up.  However, $15/hour minimum wage would represent ~50% or higher raise in many states.  If you look at research and support for the $15/hour mark, there is a lot less support from economists compared to a $10/hour minimum wage.  Of course, some cities can support more.  However, to expect some places to support $15/hour is kind of crazy.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Annnnnnnnddddddddddddd.................there you have it.     All too predictable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





BenedictGomez said:


> Better yet, kill the deal and buy in New Hampshire instead.
> 
> Then announce the expansion and creation of New Hampshire jobs, and blow $50,000 on an ad campaign (advertising is relatively cheap in Vermont) in Vermont explicitly stating why it's New Hampshire getting this infusion in $$$$$ and jobs and not Vermont, and naming the Vermont politicians that screwed this up.



Couldn't agree more.  Business love having things signed and agreed upon and then having states turn a 180 and try to raise taxes/pricing.  I'm sure that'll lure a lot of big business into VT. :smile:


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## snoseek (Feb 22, 2017)

California minimum wage is steadily marching to 15 an hour. Raises all around at Kirkwood pretty much every season. Not sure what the bottom line will be but its nice to see people actually making better wages out there.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Couldn't agree more.  Business love having things signed and agreed upon and then having states turn a 180 and try to raise taxes/pricing.  I'm sure that'll lure a lot of big business into VT. :smile:



Couldn't a business do the same thing if it negotiated the rights to block a of a lease?


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## jaybird (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Better yet, kill the deal and buy in New Hampshire instead.
> 
> Then announce the expansion and creation of New Hampshire jobs, and blow $50,000 on an ad campaign (advertising is relatively cheap in Vermont) in Vermont explicitly stating why it's New Hampshire getting this infusion in $$$$$ and jobs and not Vermont, and naming the Vermont politicians that screwed this up.



This would only hold true if there was anything in NH of the same caliber as Stowe.
Les Otten's enterprise has a long slog ahead of it .. and building brand doesn't happen overnight.

State of VT would better off sanctioning this deal .. praying for an uptick in tax revenue from F&B.
Renegotiation of lease terms with MTN won't present any obstacle. Balance sheet is easy on that.

VT and it's ski industry/political connection will soon be in a difficult position.
The Quiros debacle will likely spill over on high level VT officials.
State may now realize that their 'oversight' is of limited value.

Only question I see is what will be the price of a Stowe Epic Pass ?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> Couldn't a business do the same thing if it negotiated the rights to block a of a lease?



The right to block the sale was most certainly put in there to prevent a sale to an operation that wasn't up to the task of running a ski area.  In other words, the state put the provision in the lease to protect its ability to generate revenue pursuant to the lease, but not to renegotiate the terms of the lease itself.

So yes, technically the state can block the sale to Vail solely for the reason that they want to increase the percentage of sales they get under the lease - although I think that an aggressive Vail could argue in a court of law that the state is not acting in good faith.  (It's hard to say for sure without seeing the actual lease.)  But IMHO it's an extortionist tactic and nothing more.  And whether or not it is technically allowed, it certainly sends a message to other businesses that the State of Vermont is not to be trusted when it comes to the spirit of their contractual agreements.  Just because you _can_ do something does not make it the right thing to do.

If the state does intervene, this is going to be a major headache for the Jay/Burke receiver.  Both of those resorts are subject to state land leases.  If the state upped the payments under those leases, the sale price for the resort would presumably reflect this which means that the state would be taking money away from the very investors that the state had already screwed over with its empty promise of "oversight".


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

jaybird said:


> State of VT would better off sanctioning this deal .. praying for an uptick in tax revenue from F&B.
> Renegotiation of lease terms with MTN won't present any obstacle. Balance sheet is easy on that.


It might. Is known to treat there employees worse than other operators. Vermont might kill the deal to keep AIG under the assumption its better for Stowe employees.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> The problem as I see it is that the right to block the sale was most likely put in there to prevent the sale to an operation that wasn't up to the task of running a ski area.  In other words, the state put the provision in to protect its ability to generate revenue pursuant to the lease, but not to renegotiate the terms of the lease.
> 
> So yes, technically the state can block the sale to Vail solely for the reason that they want to increase the percentage of sales they get under the lease.  But is this moral?  I don't think it is.  IMHO it's an extortionist tactic and nothing more.  And whether or not it is moral, it certainly sends a message to other businesses that the State of Vermont is not to be trusted when it comes to their contractual agreements.



I think its moral. If you have a problem with someone using that trick don't give them the rite in the first place.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> I think its moral. If you have a problem with someone using that trick don't give them the rite in the first place.



You assume that the right was given freely and voluntarily by the ski area operation.  I am willing to bet that the state made it an absolute condition in order to access their land.


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## EPB (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> I think its moral. If you have a problem with someone using that trick don't give them the rite in the first place.



I don't quite follow. It sounds like AIG gave that away in the 1950's - not Vail. 

The lever that Vail could pull wold be to re-negotiate the price with AIG down because it was their fault it got into the agreement in the first place. Walking away or threatening to would always work, too. 

The real question is which party benefits from the other more? Vail, or VT?


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## bushpilot (Feb 22, 2017)

My biggest problem with the deal is how Vail will treat the locals. As many have said the local market is not what Vail is concerned with. Although Stowe charges $115 for a day ticket there are a few deals that give locals the chance to ski there. Besides ski club days they also have deals on Woodchuck day and during Vermont vacation week (the week after PD holiday week). Season passes for Lamoille and Washington County residents is deeply discounted. They also participate in the ski and ride with the point program which gives you 50% off a lift ticket on a certain Friday. I don't think Vail will give a flying crap about these programs. The average VT local who is going after these kinds of deals probably isn't going to make a trip out west any time soon. Is it possible some of these programs are required by the land lease?


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> Is it possible some of these programs are required by the land lease?


No.


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## bushpilot (Feb 22, 2017)

vtkilarney said:


> no.



boooooooo!


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## bigbob (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> Not much. The 3-4 lifties at a lift only collectively make $480 a day at 15 dollars an hour. 120 per 8 hour day for janitors, groomers and parking attendants . The rest are uninfected. I think the marginal costs from all of those come out to less then 2 dollars per skier visit assuming those are kept to the minimum necessary avoid lines, filth and ice.



Don't forget the burden costs on top of the $15/hour. SSI, Workers comp, unemployment, etc. Could be  another 30%


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> *Not much.* The 3-4 lifties at a lift only collectively make $480 a day at 15 dollars an hour. 120 per 8 hour day for janitors, groomers and parking attendants . The rest are uninfected. I think the marginal *costs from all of those come out to less then 2 dollars per skier *visit assuming those are kept to the minimum necessary avoid lines, filth and ice.



Labor is the #1 expense of most businesses, and I'd be willing to bet the ski industry is no different.    Virtually everyone you "see" while you're at the hill is making < $15/hour, and Vermont has already seen a big minimum wage increase in recent years, so now you want another 50% increase on top of that, and you dont think businesses will pass that cost onto the consumer?  Seriously?   Stowe does roughly 325,000 skier visits per year, so....ummmm..... yeah..... that's going to be a lot more than $2 per lift ticket!  

And BTW, many people (probably MOST) at mountains making those "low" wages are HAPPY to do so.  I was *ecstatic* to be employed part-time by Stowe Mountain Resort making a pittance so I could be at the mountain, take in that scene, and get a free season pass to perhaps the best mountain east of the Mississippi.  I'd say most of the people I worked with felt the same way.  You seem to have this delusional idea that most lift workers and ticker counter clerks are there to make that their career and support a family of 5 kids, and that they feel oppressed to boot. * Totally and utterly false.*



eastern powder baby said:


> Except the oil and gas industry. *The state did the noble thing a few years ago and banned fracking - despite the fact that there is no evidence any oil exists under Vermont.* This really is rich though.



Or any scientific evidence that fracking is harmful.  I remember that nonsense though.  Such sacrifice!



eastern powder baby said:


> * It's as if the state aspires to become the first in the union to survive with no business bigger than a mom & pop shop.*



In the age of internet shopping, no less.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> *I don't think people realize the effect of a $15/hour minimum wage.*  They just see a raise to the lowest common denominator and lose their minds about how great it is.



I think almost 50% of America has a pretty good idea.  

That die is cast, however, within 10 years you'll be ordering off tablets at McDonalds and all those "poor" and "oppressed" low-wage counter workers will be out of work.  Even worse?  They wont have employment on the key lower-rung of the jobs ladder earning key skills and experience with which to slowly rise up on the pay scale.

Then those championing $15 minimum wage will call McDonalds "greedy", LOL.... this too is all too predictable.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Labor is the #1 expense of most businesses, and I'd be willing to bet the ski industry is no different.    Virtually everyone you "see" while you're at the hill is making < $15/hour, and Vermont has already seen a big minimum wage increase in recent years, so now you want another 50% increase on top of that, and you dont think businesses will pass that cost onto the consumer?  Seriously?   Stowe does roughly 325,000 skier visits per year, so....ummmm..... yeah..... that's going to be a lot more than $2 per lift ticket!
> 
> And BTW, many people (probably MOST) at mountains making those "low" wages are HAPPY to do so.  I was *ecstatic* to be employed part-time by Stowe Mountain Resort making a pittance so I could be at the mountain, take in that scene, and get a free season pass to perhaps the best mountain east of the Mississippi.  I'd say most of the people I worked with felt the same way.  You seem to have this delusional idea that most lift workers and ticker counter clerks are there to make that their career and support a family of 5 kids, and that they feel oppressed to boot. * Totally and utterly false.*
> 
> ...



Just looking at employees who are hired based on traffic volume. Ski lessons could become much more expensive. Ski patrol and lift ops benefits a lot from economies of scale since it tuff to keep patrollers working and a Lift requires the same employees when 10 people are lapping it as when its at full capacity. Much of the grooming and snowmaking don't seem to change much based on the number of the employees. the three patrollers you need just in case at each peak are not going away becouse there are so few people they will likly not get a call. I am separating fixed costs from marginal costs. 
Vermont as the opportunity to make money out of this, Should they not get the best deal for the state. Worst case scenario they keep the status quo which is pretty good. Are you saying Vail Vermont should not use its leverage to keep as much of Stowe's revenue in VT as possible.


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## machski (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> Just looking at employees who are hired based on traffic volume. Ski lessons could become much more expensive. Ski patrol and lift ops benefits a lot from economies of scale since it tuff to keep patrollers working and a Lift requires the same employees when 10 people are lapping it as when its at full capacity. Much of the grooming and snowmaking don't seem to change much based on the number of the employees. the three patrollers you need just in case at each peak are not going away becouse there are so few people they will likly not get a call. I am separating fixed costs from marginal costs.
> Vermont as the opportunity to make money out of this, Should they not get the best deal for the state. Worst case scenario they keep the status quo which is pretty good. Are you saying Vail Vermont should not use its leverage to keep as much of Stowe's revenue in VT as possible.


Hmm, I always thought you tipped your ski instructor.  If that is the norm, then they can be paid a lower wage anyway as a tipped position.

As for patrol, being paid solely by the resort is such an Eastern thing.  Ski out west, patrol there usually have to fund raise as they are not solely paid by their resorts.  Big Sky's patrol sells some cool T shirts you can only get from them to help support them.

So lots of ways this can go in the east I would imagine as far as pay for different positions on the mountains.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## dlague (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> Just looking at employees who are hired based on traffic volume. Ski lessons could become much more expensive. Ski patrol and lift ops benefits a lot from economies of scale since it tuff to keep patrollers working and a Lift requires the same employees when 10 people are lapping it as when its at full capacity. Much of the grooming and snowmaking don't seem to change much based on the number of the employees. the three patrollers you need just in case at each peak are not going away becouse there are so few people they will likly not get a call. I am separating fixed costs from marginal costs.
> Vermont as the opportunity to make money out of this, Should they not get the best deal for the state. Worst case scenario they keep the status quo which is pretty good. Are you saying Vail Vermont should not use its leverage to keep as much of Stowe's revenue in VT as possible.



The real revenue gain will go to Vail in pass sales and New Englanders who will leverage the pass for trips out west.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

So let me get this right benski...you have a company that has entered into a deal to sell their business to another company (voluntarily). And you think the state should stop the deal because the new company *might* not be as good as the old company for the employees? So the result of that would then be a pissed off AIG. How exactly will that benefit the state of VT? VT already gets a percentage of lift ticket sales AND F&B sales at Stowe via the terms of the land lease. Then they get their normal sales tax and food and beverage tax revenue on top of that I would imagine. So if Vail comes in and drives more traffic to the mountain, the state stands to gain more money from increased sales without even thinking about renegotiating the terms of the state forest land lease. Never mind the fact that killing the deal would have serious consequences in the future for any hope VT has of attracting new businesses.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

Sugarbush wasted no time in sending out an e-mail referencing the Vail purchase of Stowe...Interesting shots taken at Stowe with respect to the potential crowd issues Epic could cause. I get the impression that Sugarbush is laying the groundwork for making no substantial changes to their pricing strategy (which is what I've been saying I thought they would do).



> Dear Chad,
> As you have undoubtedly heard, Vail has announced the purchase of the Stowe Mountain Ski operation, while leaving ownership of the Stowe Mountain Lodge, Stowe Mountain Club, Golf Club and real estate development assets with AIG. We have long anticipated that Vail would come East and considered Stowe one of the most likely targets.
> 
> We have long respected Stowe as a very well-capitalized and well-run resort, and we have admired the success of Vail under its recent ownership. Vail will clearly bring a number of changes to Stowe, not least of which is their EPIC pass. This pass has changed the landscape in the West and certainly will create some challenges, but also some opportunities, here in the East.
> ...


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

benski said:


> *Vermont as the opportunity to make money out of this, Should they not get the best deal for the state. *Worst case scenario they keep the status quo which is pretty good. Are you saying Vail Vermont should not use its leverage to keep as much of Stowe's revenue in VT as possible.



First of all, scaring the tar out of virtually every private business in the state, is not "good" for Vermont. 

Secondly, what you are concurring with is not getting a "good deal" for the State of Vermont, it's thuggery at the point of a bayonet.  

Would you feel the same way if your electric company broke a 10 year fixed-rate contract with you and decided to double the cost of your electricity?  After all, the electric company should get the "best deal" for itself, right?  Somehow I believe you'd be the first person to call that electric company a "big business" that's full of "greed" and _______ (insert anti-business soup du jour term here).



cdskier said:


> So let me get this right benski...*you have a company that has entered into a deal to sell their business to another company (voluntarily). And you think the state should stop the deal because the new company *might* not be as good as the old company for the employees? *So the result of that would then be a pissed off AIG. *How exactly will that benefit the state of VT? *



Because it moves State of Vermont closer to Communism, and Communism is really WONDERFUL!!!  It's just that it's never been done right!  LOL


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> *Sugarbush wasted no time in sending out an e-mail referencing the Vail purchase of Stowe.*



Win Smith's prose is dripping with fear.

My favorite part?



> _*The one thing that they cannot bring to Stowe, however, is the special nature of the Mad River Valley *_



How about no Scott. 

No offense, but I'll take the "special nature" of Stowe, Smuggler's Notch, or Jay Peak over Sugarbush.    There is literally nothing "special" about the Mad River Valley compared to Stowe from a competitive standpoint.  Nothing. 

 This is like a cute girl trying to compare herself to Kate Upton. No one's getting fooled.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> So let me get this right benski...you have a company that has entered into a deal to sell their business to another company (voluntarily). And you think the state should stop the deal because the new company *might* not be as good as the old company for the employees? So the result of that would then be a pissed off AIG. How exactly will that benefit the state of VT? VT already gets a percentage of lift ticket sales AND F&B sales at Stowe via the terms of the land lease. Then they get their normal sales tax and food and beverage tax revenue on top of that I would imagine. So if Vail comes in and drives more traffic to the mountain, the state stands to gain more money from increased sales without even thinking about renegotiating the terms of the state forest land lease. Never mind the fact that killing the deal would have serious consequences in the future for any hope VT has of attracting new businesses.



Only since its state land that the state leased under the condition it could approve a change in ownership it is permissible. I think Stowe made a mistake giving the state the write to do this in the first place when they made the deal, and should have asked in writing that there be limits on when this could be used if ever.


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> No offense, but I'll take the "special nature" of Stowe, Smuggler's Notch, or Jay Peak over Sugarbush.    There is literally nothing "special" about the Mad River Valley compared to Stowe from a competitive standpoint.  Nothing.



This is consistent with there marketing strategy. Hence the slogan is "Be Better Here."


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## deadheadskier (Feb 22, 2017)

Sugarbush will be fine. Rising tide lifts all boats. I read no "fear" in Win's prose at all.  

From everything I've heard, the crowding at Stowe this year on weekends has been insane.  40 minutes just to park your car or leave at the end of the day.  That's only going to worsen on epic pass. 

People can go to Jay or Smuggs, but both have old lift infrastructure and poor snowmaking for lean times.  Sugarbush is larger than all other areas in Northern VT and has better lifts and snowmaking than both Jay and Smuggs.  It has more diverse restaurants and shopping than Jay or Smuggs as well. That's important to many vacationers.

I think Stowe has the best combination terrain, amenities and snow in the East. It's my favorite without question. That said I'm not spending 40 minutes to try and park my car. If Northern VT was my home ski destination I'd be getting a pass to Sugarbush these days.  

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bushpilot (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is like a cute girl trying to compare herself to Kate Upton. No one's getting fooled.



Good comparison. I would marry the cute down to earth farm girl in a heartbeat. A super model, not so much. 

If you want to be happy for the rest of your life never make a pretty woman your wife. 

Say man!

Hey baby!

I skied Sugarbush the other day!

Yeah?

Yeah, an' she's ugly!

Yeah, she's ugly, but she sure can cook, baby!

I like my mountain to cook, baby!


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## gregnye (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush wasted no time in sending out an e-mail referencing the Vail purchase of Stowe...Interesting shots taken at Stowe with respect to the potential crowd issues Epic could cause. I get the impression that Sugarbush is laying the groundwork for making no substantial changes to their pricing strategy (which is what I've been saying I thought they would do).



After reading their email. Let me translate: "We will never lower pass prices because somehow, we at Sugarbush consider ourselves in the same realm as Stowe, when in reality our atmosphere, quality (literally everything) is like Jay Peak. Therefore, rather than using this opportunity to join up with other mountains, we plan on doing nothing, just as we always have and hope that people decide to come."

Like come on. The Sugarbush pass is now literally the worst deal for everyone, even as a college kid. I was considering their college pass this year but it literally makes no sense. It's more expensive than the killington one, and its only valid at Sugarbush and Mad River, neither of which are a sound investment when it comes to snowmaking (Mad river could be closed a whole season). The Killington 4.0 still wins--although the terrain at K is nothing like Sugarbush /End Rant


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## benski (Feb 22, 2017)

gregnye said:


> After reading their email. Let me translate: "We will never lower pass prices because somehow, we at Sugarbush consider ourselves in the same realm as Stowe, when in reality our atmosphere, quality (literally everything) is like Jay Peak. Therefore, rather than using this opportunity to join up with other mountains, we plan on doing nothing, just as we always have and hope that people decide to come."



Its marketing. He is just trying to spin the story a little more in Sugerbush's favor.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> No offense, but I'll take the "special nature" of Stowe, Smuggler's Notch, or Jay Peak over Sugarbush.    There is literally nothing "special" about the Mad River Valley compared to Stowe from a competitive standpoint.  Nothing.



Pretty strong opinion for a guy from New Jersey


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Win Smith's prose is dripping with fear.
> ...
> 
> No offense, but I'll take the "special nature" of Stowe, Smuggler's Notch, or Jay Peak over Sugarbush.    There is literally nothing "special" about the Mad River Valley compared to Stowe from a competitive standpoint.  Nothing.



If you read fear in that, you don't know Win. I saw a very smart businessman who has expected this to happen for a while and wants to reassure people that Sugarbush will be just fine.

I also know a lot of people that would disagree with you that there's "nothing" special about the MRV.



deadheadskier said:


> Sugarbush will be fine. Rising tide lifts all boats. I read no "fear" in Win's prose at all.



Agreed. 



gregnye said:


> After reading their email. Let me translate: "We will never lower pass prices because somehow, we at Sugarbush consider ourselves in the same realm as Stowe, when in reality our atmosphere, quality (literally everything) is like Jay Peak. Therefore, rather than using this opportunity to join up with other mountains, we plan on doing nothing, just as we always have and hope that people decide to come."



Are you sure you've been to the MRV and Sugarbush? Sugarbush's pass pricing was nowhere near Stowe's prior to this deal. They might now be the most expensive in N VT, but if you look at VT as a whole they are really not overpriced (and you get a lot better terrain and snow at SB compared to some S VT resorts that charge similar prices) What atmosphere and quality issues do they have? The atmosphere in the MRV and at SB is incredibly laid back. People go there because they like to ski.



> Like come on. The Sugarbush pass is now literally the worst deal for everyone, even as a college kid. I was considering their college pass this year but it literally makes no sense. It's more expensive than the killington one, and its only valid at Sugarbush and Mad River, neither of which are a sound investment when it comes to snowmaking (Mad river could be closed a whole season). The Killington 4.0 still wins--although the terrain at K is nothing like Sugarbush /End Rant



Worst deal? That's laughable. Let's do the math on a couple scenarios and compare SB vs K since you brought up K. (I'm using last year's early purchase pricing)

One adult (36 years old)
$1139 K v $1149 SB ($10 more is brutal!)

One adult (in their 20s)
$599 K v $339 SB (this deal is clearly the worst!)

One adult (in their early 30s)
$1139 K v $499 SB (oops...clearly this deal is even worse than the last one...although to be fair this was a new pass offering SB started in the early fall after Stowe announced a similar one for this age range)

Family of 4 (2 adults 36+ and 2 kids <=12)
$3356 K vs $2298 SB (SB gives a free 12 and under pass for every adult pass purchased...but they are so overpriced)

Family of 4 (2 adults 36+ and 2 kids 13-18 )
$3356 K vs $2996 SB

College kid
$349 K (includes Okemo and Mt Sunapee) vs $369 SB (include MRG) - This one K has an edge, but it is very close. If you're hellbent on saving money though, you can always go with the pure SB college pass without the MRG option for $329 (or even the ME only one for $229)

I could go on...but I think this covers a pretty nice range of scenarios.

Sorry for the sarcastic rant, but I'm just so annoyed by people saying SB is such a bad deal and so overpriced when clearly they aren't if you look at the actual numbers. If you wait until the last minute to buy your pass, well then all bets are off. I get that sometimes people have situations that require waiting, but I'd like to think most people that know they are skiing buy their passes at the best rates in the spring for the following season. Those are the numbers I compared.

Will SB be more expensive than Stowe as a result of Epic? Absolutely in many scenarios (but not all scenarios). But to say they are now the worst deal in VT is insane.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Pretty strong opinion for a guy from New Jersey



I'm from NJ as well but I completely disagree with him on his opinion in this case.


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## KD7000 (Feb 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> These people will file lawsuits if you intend to cut a single tree.  They are not the conscientious and respectful stewards of the environment that they purport to be, they are bullies and self-righteous "religious" ideologues with a cult-like mentality,  who ironically & unwittingly often do more harm than good to the environmental causes they support.
> 
> In this case, however, their silly, self-righteous, histrionics will lead to the outcome that I support (i.e. no Stowe/Smuggs merger), so.... go them.


Who are "these people" ?


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## bushpilot (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Will SB be more expensive than Stowe as a result of Epic? Absolutely in many scenarios (but not all scenarios). But to say they are now the worst deal in VT is insane.



My son snowboards so MRG is out. My next closest mountain would be bolton. Adult season pass is 649 and  youth is 179 = $828. I could have bought a Mt Ellen ticket (can ski at LP until Mt Ellen opens and then can ski closing weekend at LP. That pass costs $689. Bolton has no high speed lifts. Worse snow making and is this season did not open 100% until February. The LP deal is 1,700 now but pre labor day was 1,200. Another 400 for an extra month plus of skiing and a mountain 2x as big as Mt Ellen. If you bought it in the spring is was 899. Seems like a pretty good deal to me compared to my other option.


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## gregnye (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sorry for the sarcastic rant, but I'm just so annoyed by people saying SB is such a bad deal and so overpriced when clearly they aren't if you look at the actual numbers. If you wait until the last minute to buy your pass, well then all bets are off. I get that sometimes people have situations that require waiting, but I'd like to think most people that know they are skiing buy their passes at the best rates in the spring for the following season. Those are the numbers I compared.
> 
> Will SB be more expensive than Stowe as a result of Epic? Absolutely in many scenarios (but not all scenarios). But to say they are now the worst deal in VT is insane.



Ok maybe the adult deals are average, but in order to be successful in the long run Sugarbush needs to keep newer customers coming. Who are the newer customers? The College kids. A lot of people on here don't know the general college season pass trends (who could blame them?) but this year at my college it was mostly in favor of Peaks/Mt Snow...etc. with Killington 4.0 second most popular. 

You also have to factor in the season length. Remember all that concern on here about water restrictions and how much snowmaking they could make? Meanwhile Killington was just blasting away making snow=More reliable home mountain as sugarbush is better for day trips.

Now Sugarbush is already way ahead of Stowe in terms of marketing to college kids, as Stowe had no real college discount day tickets at all. However Sugarbush has a long way to go. They need to join up with other mountains on other passes to be successful now (presuming that a cheaper epic college pass is now valid at stowe).

Don't get me wrong I love it though!


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

gregnye said:


> Ok maybe the adult deals are average, but in order to be successful in the long run Sugarbush needs to keep newer customers coming. Who are the newer customers? The College kids. A lot of people on here don't know the general college season pass trends (who could blame them?) but this year at my college it was mostly in favor of Peaks/Mt Snow...etc. with Killington 4.0 second most popular.
> 
> You also have to factor in the season length. Remember all that concern on here about water restrictions and how much snowmaking they could make? Meanwhile Killington was just blasting away making snow=More reliable home mountain as sugarbush is better for day trips.
> 
> ...



I'd argue the people that just graduated college are one of the most important demographics to grab in terms of long term success. Get them hooked at a low price so once they get jobs they can afford to pay the higher "adult" prices and keep coming. And in that market SB has been doing exceptionally well with pass sales from what I've heard (and hence the whole reason that SB started the For 20s pass 5 years ago in the first place). If College students are as important as well though as you've indicated, then price right now isn't an issue and it is purely marketing that they need to work on. I never had a pass in college though at any resort and just did day trips, so I really don't know how important this demographic is (and for all we know, SB is hitting their target numbers just not with people at your college.) I also was in college in western NY, so VT was not exactly on my radar beyond one spring break trip every year.

Season length is a factor, but I don't personally view early season as too critical. I'm not one of those people that needs to get out there and ski in October. I can wait until November/December. For late season, I could always buy a K spring pass for dirt cheap if I really wanted to ski beyond SB's closing date (and SB has made it to late April/early May most recent years which is good enough for me as too many other things start getting in the way of skiing after April).

Snowmaking is a concern, but not enough of a concern where I'm going to base my pass decision on that. Sugarbush has a decent system (not great and we definitely saw limitations, but it is adequate). Since SB usually gets more natural snow, I'm willing to take a bit of a risk for those off years where they have low natural snow and have to rely on a less powerful snowmaking system than other places like K.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> What does this mean?  It sounds like it means they want to charge more for the leasing of the land.  If the current lease terms are almost 50 years old, that would mean there is about 49 more years remaining on the lease terms since they are generally 99 year leases, correct?



Yep. Exactly.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep. Exactly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


And let's not forget that the state is getting more over the years - without renegotiating the lease.  The state gets a percentage of sales.  As prices go up, the state's haul increases.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> And let's not forget that the state is getting more over the years - without renegotiating the lease.  The state gets a percentage of sales.  As prices go up, the state's haul increases.



And yet the auditor was arguing that the state is getting LESS now (when adjusted for inflation).


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## VTKilarney (Feb 22, 2017)

Here is a gem from the Progressive auditor's report:
Finally, when the State negotiated the lease agreements, it made a crucial error by not stipulating regular opportunities to update the agreements, as the federal government does in its standardized 40-year permits with ski areas. Despite this impediment, the State and the ski resorts could work together to update and improve the leases.


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## hovercraft (Feb 22, 2017)

I thought the best part of the email Win sent out was when he compared SB to Squaw or Jackson Hole.  He must be high on something.  If anyone doesn't think he is worried, they are delusional.


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## cdskier (Feb 22, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I thought the best part of the email Win sent out was when he compared SB to Squaw or Jackson Hole.  He must be high on something.  If anyone doesn't think he is worried, they are delusional.



benski made an interesting observation on that in the skimrv forum...many of the resorts he mentioned are part of the Mountain Collective pass. Maybe he's hinting of joining that. Personally that does nothing for me, but good for others if it helps them. Of course it could also be just a coincidence.

I still don't think he's worried.


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## hovercraft (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> benski made an interesting observation on that in the skimrv forum...many of the resorts he mentioned are part of the Mountain Collective pass. Maybe he's hinting of joining that. Personally that does nothing for me, but good for others if it helps them. Of course it could also be just a coincidence.
> 
> I still don't think he's worried.


He should join the collective, it would help to compete.  It's a nice bonus for people.  I think it is only human to worry.  If he isn't he should be.   Worring about your business takes you out of your comfort zone and drives you to think outside the box.  SB needs to innovate around this.  It's not enough to say the Valley is special and leave it at that.  If he does he will be in for a rude awaking IMO.


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## bushpilot (Feb 22, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> It's a nice bonus for people.



It is a nice bonus for those that don't have a season pass. If they do something like Bolton does for the freedom pass like providing the other resorts free or with a small up charge that would be a bonus.


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## hovercraft (Feb 22, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> It is a nice bonus for those that don't have a season pass. If they do something like Bolton does for the freedom pass like providing the other resorts free or with a small up charge that would be a bonus.


With my season pass at Stowe I got half price tickets at all the resorts in the collective.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> And yet the auditor was arguing that the state is getting LESS now (when adjusted for inflation).



He obviously doesn't understand that the WHOLE point of the somewhat discounted leases was to help the industry grow and to create jobs.  


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush wasted no time in sending out an e-mail referencing the Vail purchase of Stowe...Interesting shots taken at Stowe with respect to the potential crowd issues Epic could cause. I get the impression that Sugarbush is laying the groundwork for making no substantial changes to their pricing strategy (which is what I've been saying I thought they would do).



Right on cue.  I got that in my inbox as well.  Some things were as I predicted (the "small town" thing and how the MRV is special).  I saw a signal that passes are not going to get cheaper.  I also thought the comments about crowding were interesting.  However, unless something has changed a lot since 2011 then I would say that Lincoln Peak CAN get pretty crowded.  He really focused on the crowding issue.  

The comparison to Alta, Aspen, etc. was laughable.  I love Sugarbush, but it is nothing compared to those resorts.  Alta has the snow and a real community feel like MRG.  Aspen is, well, Aspen.  Even Aspen Highlands.  Jackson Hole?  Not even close.  Squaw Valley?  Host an Olympics and then come back and talk to us.  

The pitch for real estate was odd and funny.  

We'll see what happens, but as I predicted, they trotted out the "less crowded" and "unique local" vibe.  And they did it 24 hours after the announcement.   


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## thetrailboss (Feb 22, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> He should join the collective, it would help to compete.  It's a nice bonus for people.  I think it is only human to worry.  If he isn't he should be.   Worring about your business takes you out of your comfort zone and drives you to think outside the box.  SB needs to innovate around this.  It's not enough to say the Valley is special and leave it at that.  If he does he will be in for a rude awaking IMO.



Exactly.  I've said it before, but I don't think they are in the same caliber as Stowe.  Not for the last few years.  I know that folks say, "well, when there's snow..." and that's my point.  Stowe invested a TON in their infrastructure while Sugarbush has been touting the local thing and resting on their laurels.  They've done good work with what they have, but they just don't have as deep of pockets.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 23, 2017)

Win made a comparison to the eastern equivalent of Jackson, Alta/Bird, etc.  EASTERN equivalent.  Obviously its nothing like that in real life, but I think he's saying the all around vibe and skiing is like nothing you can find elsewhere in VT. 

I don't necessarily disagree with him.  Dude is a very smart business man, and is blood passionate about MRV.  They will be fine..


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I also thought the comments about crowding were interesting.  However, unless something has changed a lot since 2011 then I would say that Lincoln Peak CAN get pretty crowded.  He really focused on the crowding issue.



The new Valley House Quad does make a significant difference. On a non-holiday weekend, I've never waited more than a few minutes at the Bravo/Valley House lifts recently. President's Weekend looked crowded from what I saw on the web cams, although a couple people that I know were there said lines moved quickly and weren't as bad as they looked. I wasn't there personally, so just going on what I heard.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  I've said it before, but I don't think they are in the same caliber as Stowe.  Not for the last few years.  I know that folks say, "well, when there's snow..." and that's my point.  Stowe invested a TON in their infrastructure while Sugarbush has been touting the local thing and resting on their laurels.  They've done good work with what they have, but they just don't have as deep of pockets.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



If I were a Sugarbush skier I would be very pleased that they don't have the $$$ to have made the investments and changes that Stowe has.  I don't have a single local friend in Stowe who doesn't wish the mountain could turn back the clock to pre-Spruce development when it was basically just a ski mountain and not Disneyland.  On a holiday weekend you could show up at 10AM and get a parking spot within 50 feet of the Big Pig and just lap that terrain until 1 or so and head to Mansfield for relatively reasonable lines off the Gondola and the 4Runner being practically ski on after 2. 

If Sugarbush made similar moves the changes would be Mount Ellen no longer being uncrowded and a hub for exclusive facilities for owners and club members. No public parking at Mount Ellen. 30-40 minutes just to park your car at Lincoln. Massively longer lift lines on all chairs, powder getting tracked out twice as fast. Same season length.  All for the benefit of having a bit better snow during lean times between storms and being able to eat a NYC quality lunch in the base lodge cafeteria.  

I've never really seen what Win has done as trying to go toe to toe with Stowe, but more a very nice alternative with a different vibe.  


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## slatham (Feb 23, 2017)

Its interesting that Win focused on the easy access to Sugarbush via the various roads. I did not realize the issues with traffic and parking at Stowe on a busy day. Nothing turns me off more than having to allow 1/2 hour+ to the trip due to access road traffic and remote parking......

He also raised a very valid point - will Stowe be even more crowded with people buying into the Epic pass? If I were a SB local I would seriously consider an Epic pass for the Western resorts. But if it means a zoo on even a normal weekend, well that would deter me for sure.

Certainly shaking things up. Does Win counter in some way, or wait and see?


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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

I'm happy for anyone that wanted to carry a Stowe pass all these years but couldn't afford to do so. I'm happy more locals will get to ski there. If you're a midweek skier this will be a good deal


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2017)

There are lots of Chittenden County and other locals who have no absolutely plans to take a ski trip out west.  If Sugarbush priced similarly to Stowe for those folks, they could probably pick up a lot of people who want to avoid the crowds that will descend upon Stowe.  But let's be honest.  A lot of the locals are price sensitive.  The Vermont economy is not exactly a Boston or New York economy.  That's why Sugarbush can't take prices for granted as far as the locals are concerned.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 23, 2017)

Is there a lot of day trippers to Stowe on the weekend?  I recognize this may seem like a stupid question, but at 3+ hours from Boston and 5+ hours from NYC, its not exactly close to either market.  

Are there a lot of regular weekenders that stay for the entire weekend or just ski Saturday with a  6 hour round trip on either end of a ski day?

When I go to Stowe, its for he weekend because it's 8 hours from home.  Just curious to what the true demographic is.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I've never really seen what Win has done as trying to go toe to toe with Stowe, but more a very nice alternative with a different vibe.



Agreed, I never understand when people keep saying he's trying to compete directly with Stowe. He isn't. Sure he's added a few more upscale lodging offerings, but it is relatively limited and he's still kept the same overall laid back vibe that it is known for. He's also led the way in so many different reasonably priced pass options for many different groups.



snoseek said:


> I'm happy for anyone that wanted to carry a Stowe pass all these years but couldn't afford to do so. I'm happy more locals will get to ski there. If you're a midweek skier this will be a good deal



Yes, a full regular Epic pass stands to be cheaper than the existing local county midweek passes. And they get the added benefit of being able to use it anytime (and out west of course). Good deal for people that can ski midweek and avoid the weekend crowds.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> There are lots of Chittenden County and other locals who have no absolutely plans to take a ski trip out west.  If Sugarbush priced similarly to Stowe for those folks, they could probably pick up a lot of people who want to avoid the crowds that will descend upon Stowe.  But let's be honest.  A lot of the locals are price sensitive.  The Vermont economy is not exactly a Boston or New York economy.  That's why Sugarbush can't take prices for granted as far as the locals are concerned.



Sugarbush's answer for locals would most likely be their existing Mt Ellen options ($539 for unlimited ME only or $795 for unlimited ME + 5 days at LP + spring skiing at LP after ME closes). If you can take advantage of a midweek option, then for $539 you can get unlimited midweek skiing at both LP and ME. If you can ski midweek and are 65+, then the boomer pass at $99 is an absolute steal. (*All prices mentioned are last year's early purchase rates).

Sugarbush's full regular adult pass is also already cheaper than Stowe's 7 day county pass.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Sugarbush's full regular adult pass is also already cheaper than Stowe's 7 day county pass.


Not for long, methinks.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 23, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> My real heartbreak is going to come when Vail buys Smuggler's Notch on the cheap, connects the mountains, tears down the old and builds shiny new buildings all over Smuggs.    At least Madonna will finally have a high-speed quad though.


Sadly this seems inevitable now. Right after Vail makes Hellbrook inbound "hike to" terrain 

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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Win made a comparison to the eastern equivalent of Jackson, Alta/Bird, etc.  EASTERN equivalent.  Obviously its nothing like that in real life, but I think he's saying the all around vibe and skiing is like nothing you can find elsewhere in VT.
> 
> I don't necessarily disagree with him.  Dude is a very smart business man, and is blood passionate about MRV.  They will be fine..



I did see that.  Different than anything in Vermont?  Sure.  I agree.  I also think that it was more than coincidence to use Mountain Collective resorts in that discussion because Stowe was in the MC and now won't be.  The MC resorts are also the "independent alternative" to the Epic Pass.




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## spring_mountain_high (Feb 23, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is a gem from the Progressive auditor's report:
> Finally, when the State negotiated the lease agreements, it made a crucial error by not stipulating regular opportunities to update the agreements, as the federal government does in its standardized 40-year permits with ski areas. Despite this impediment, the State and the ski resorts could work together to update and improve the leases.



i would wager that vail's attorneys were well aware of the state's ability to block the deal and the resultant blackmail which would accompany such an ability, and baked that into their offer price

and if they didn't, then shame on them


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## mbedle (Feb 23, 2017)

Has anyone looked at the Master Plan for Sugarbush? If that comes to fruition, they will be a direct carbon copy of what Spruce Peak is today.


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## speeddemon (Feb 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Has anyone looked at the Master Plan for Sugarbush? If that comes to fruition, they will be a direct carbon copy of what Spruce Peak is today.



I'm curious, can you provide some more detail on this post? From a real estate perspective? From a trail system perspective? Thanks.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Pretty *strong opinion for a guy from New Jersey*



No idea what that even means.  I've skied Vermont extensively from the middle-up.  The only resorts in Vermont I'm not familiar with are s.VT, like Magic, Stratton, Okemo, etc....



cdskier said:


> *If you read fear in that, you don't know Win.*



I don't know Win, but I would wager a lager sum of money that I've read more CEO statements than 99% of posters on this board (regretfully, as they're almost universally painfully boring), and after you've read a few thousand statements like that, you get pretty good at quickly discerning their motivation, their hidden (they erroneously think well) agenda, and at reading between the lines.  So you're right, I dont know the guy, but I'd stake my life on his being worried by Vail/Stowe after reading his open letter.



VTKilarney said:


> Here is a gem from the Progressive auditor's report:
> Finally, *when the State negotiated the lease agreements, it made a crucial error by not stipulating regular opportunities to update the agreements*, as the federal government does in its standardized 40-year permits with ski areas. *Despite this impediment, the State and the ski resorts could work together to update and improve the leases.*



*SHORTER VERSION: *  Government employees are stupid and it's "Bambi vs. Godzilla" when we deal with private business.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I thought* the best part of the email Win sent out was when he compared SB to Squaw or Jackson Hole.  He must be high on something.  If anyone doesn't think he is worried, they are delusional.*





thetrailboss said:


> *The comparison to Alta, Aspen, etc. was laughable.  I love Sugarbush, but it is nothing compared to those resorts.  Alta has the snow and a real community feel like MRG.  Aspen is, well, Aspen.  Even Aspen Highlands.  Jackson Hole?  Not even close.  Squaw Valley?  Host an Olympics and then come back and talk to us.
> *



I didn't bother to mention that part, but I actually found that part of the letter more "embarrassing" than delusional.



deadheadskier said:


> I don't have a single local friend in Stowe who doesn't wish the mountain could turn back the clock to pre-Spruce development when it was basically just a ski mountain and not Disneyland.  On a holiday weekend you could show up at 10AM and get a parking spot within 50 feet of the Big Pig and just lap that terrain until 1 or so and head to Mansfield for relatively reasonable lines off the Gondola and the 4Runner being practically ski on after 2.



I keep reading these horror stories of driving to and parking at Stowe, is this only a Christmas/MLK/PDW phenomena?   I only ski Stowe one or 2 Saturdays a year for the last 4'ish years, but I've not experienced nightmare gridlock or 30 minutes to park, so either I've been lucky or I assume it's a holiday thing, or a very recent thing as I didn't ski Stowe at all last year.  This is very saddening if the place has truly been destroyed by aggressive planning.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

Not to turn this into another Sugarbush thread, but you have to admit that Win is indeed concerned.  They've always been sandwiched in between Stowe to the north and its lofty reputation and Killington to the south and its reputation.  Stowe was just sold to a HUGE ski resort player.  And I've read that Killington's Base Area expansion was finally approved....whether it happens or not we have yet to see.  So once again Sugarbush has to try to distinguish itself from these two.  

And for the record I like Win.  Always have.  He's done a great job.  But let's understand that it is a tough business and competition is fierce.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Agreed, I never understand when people keep saying he's trying to compete directly with Stowe. He isn't. Sure he's added a few more upscale lodging offerings, but it is relatively limited and he's still kept the same overall laid back vibe that it is known for. He's also led the way in so many different reasonably priced pass options for many different groups.



Ugh.  I feel like a broken record.  They've ALWAYS had to compete with Stowe to the north and Killington to the south  I'm pretty sure that he either said at a passholder meeting I attended or said on an AZ Challenge that they compared themselves to Stowe and used the same approach--not to underprice their product (like ASC did) and to focus on offering quality over quantity.  Hence, why they always were on the upper end of season pass prices since he took over.

That said, their pass offerings have responded to pressure by becoming so fragmented.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> They've always been sandwiched in between Stowe to the north and its lofty reputation and Killington to the south


From a business perspective, touting your place as more "natural" and "least crowded" means that you have lost the race.  

I think that Sugarbush will be fine, but I don't think that a business as usual attitude is going to work.  If I were Win, I'd be talking to ski areas out west that have had to go head to head with Vail.  I'd be looking to form alliances.  I'd be thinking long and hard about what my customer base is going to look like and how to go after them.  He needs to be proactive about this.

They probably don't have the money, but folding Sugarbush into the Peak Resorts portfolio would make a lot of sense.  Having Hunter and Sugarbush on the same pass would appeal to a LOT of New Yorkers.  And you've also got the Boston crowd covered with the New Hampshire resorts.  But maybe since they already have Mount Snow it would be diminishing returns for Peak.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> From a business perspective, touting your place as more "natural" and "least crowded" means that you have lost the race.
> 
> I think that Sugarbush will be fine, but I don't think that a business as usual attitude is going to work.  If I were Win, I'd be talking to ski areas out west that have had to go head to head with Vail.  I'd be looking to form alliances.  I'd be thinking long and hard about what my customer base is going to look like and how to go after them.  He needs to be proactive about this.



In sum, I'd be making a serious pitch to join the Mountain Collective in Stowe's place.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> In sum, I'd be making a serious pitch to join the Mountain Collective in Stowe's place.


I think the Mountain Collective makes a lot of sense, but it's really only attractive to people that are going to make a trip out west.  There are a whole lot of eastern skiers that won't be doing that.  So I think that it's a partial answer, but more is needed.


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## mbedle (Feb 23, 2017)

Sugarbush Master Plan.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> View attachment 21966 Sugarbush Master Plan.



That definitely looks much more natural and less crowded. :smile:


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## rtjcbrown (Feb 23, 2017)

What is that long angled building with no label? Just above Mill House/General Store


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

What's the date on that plan? It doesn't even look like it matches anything they've built recently so I'm thinking it isn't the current Master Plan.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 23, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the Mountain Collective makes a lot of sense, but it's really only attractive to people that are going to make a trip out west.  There are a whole lot of eastern skiers that won't be doing that.  So I think that it's a partial answer, but more is needed.


I looked at the Mountain Collective, but it didn't really make enough sense.  Unless you planned a trip to at least 2 of the resorts, it doesn't seem to help all that much since it is only 2 passes for each mountain.  Whistler and Stowe will now be coming off of the Mountain Collective as well.

If it provided 3-4 or 5 tickets to each mountain like the MAX Pass does, it would make more sense to me.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 23, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I don't know Win, but I would wager a lager sum of money that I've read more CEO statements than 99% of posters on this board (regretfully, as they're almost universally painfully boring), and after you've read a few thousand statements like that, you get pretty good at quickly discerning their motivation, their hidden (they erroneously think well) agenda, and at reading between the lines.  So you're right, I dont know the guy, but I'd stake my life on his being worried by Vail/Stowe after reading his open letter.


Perhaps maybe not fear, but he's at least worried or concerned, which is proven by the simple fact that they put out a letter like this at all.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That said,* their pass offerings have responded to pressure by becoming so fragmented.*



I think they're about to get even fragmentier'.  



Jcb890 said:


> *That definitely looks much more natural and less crowded*. :smile:



I'm genuinely loathing this "ski megalopolis" craze that's taking over.  

Ten or Fifteen years from now, I see myself frequenting the Plattekills and the Mad River Glens of the world far more often (Smuggs too, on the odd-chance Smuggs is still Smuggs).


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I looked at the Mountain Collective, but it didn't really make enough sense.  Unless you planned a trip to at least 2 of the resorts, it doesn't seem to help all that much since it is only 2 passes for each mountain.  Whistler and Stowe will now be coming off of the Mountain Collective as well.
> 
> If it provided 3-4 or 5 tickets to each mountain like the MAX Pass does, it would make more sense to me.



I'm not a big fan of the Mountain Collective structure either, although I believe it does give you 50% off single day tickets at the participating resorts once you use the 2 included ones. So you could theoretically visit only 1 resort on the list and use the pass for 6 days (2 "free" + 4 50% off) and that could cover the cost of the pass.

I do like the way MAX does it better though.


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## mbedle (Feb 23, 2017)

Sorry - wrong plan. This is the plan approved in 2012. Not nearly as bad.


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## benski (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> What's the date on that plan? It doesn't even look like it matches anything they've built recently so I'm thinking it isn't the current Master Plan.



I think its from around when the gate house was built. Its a perfect copy of the pre Castlerock pub addiction Gate House so likely the hight of the real estate bubble. I think after 2008 this was thrown out. The rice/gad/whatever area is 2 huge building as opposed to the I think 5-7 smaller building. Those big building could not have been built at the cautiousness they have taken recently.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> That definitely looks much more natural and less crowded. :smile:



:lol:  

Much more organic.


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## slatham (Feb 23, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think they're about to get even fragmentier'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And Magic? Magic will still be Magic......


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## raisingarizona (Feb 23, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Not to turn this into another Sugarbush thread, but you have to admit that Win is indeed concerned.  They've always been sandwiched in between Stowe to the north and its lofty reputation and Killington to the south and its reputation.  Stowe was just sold to a HUGE ski resort player.  And I've read that Killington's Base Area expansion was finally approved....whether it happens or not we have yet to see.  So once again Sugarbush has to try to distinguish itself from these two.
> 
> And for the record I like Win.  Always have.  He's done a great job.  But let's understand that it is a tough business and competition is fierce.



With the right marketing I would think that that should be pretty easy. Well maybe not easy but possible.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 23, 2017)

4000 acres of skiable terrain? Come on now!?! That's not very truthful.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 23, 2017)

http://www.sugarbush.com/terrain/stats/

Under terrain it adds up to 581 acres, but then claims 4,000+.  How is that possible?  Do they count all the unpatrolled and unchecked woods all around the area?  Even Killington claims under 2,000 acres with both Killington and Pico.


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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

raisingarizona said:


> 4000 acres of skiable terrain? Come on now!?! That's not very truthful.




Haha yeah that a big ol stretch for sure. As far as the east goes its sitting on a HUGE chunk of skiable property but 4000 acres is ridiculous. 

I imagine Sugarbush will do fine in the end. It will be the goto place in Northern VT if you want a large diverse mtn without dealing with ridiculous amounts of people. It would make sense for them to hook on with MC for sure. In the long run if they keep the same prices people may come back after dealing with the shitshow that will become Stowe.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I'm not a big fan of the Mountain Collective structure either, although I believe it does give you 50% off single day tickets at the participating resorts once you use the 2 included ones. So you could theoretically visit only 1 resort on the list and use the pass for 6 days (2 "free" + 4 50% off) and that could cover the cost of the pass.
> 
> I do like the way MAX does it better though.


I don't think its a terrible deal, I just felt like we'd get more bang for our buck using the MAX Pass.

How much was the MC Pass?
Does anyone have any info or stats on how well it sold?


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## 4aprice (Feb 23, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I don't think its a terrible deal, I just felt like we'd get more bang for our buck using the MAX Pass.
> 
> How much was the MC Pass?
> Does anyone have any info or stats on how well it sold?



Mountain Collective is much cheaper then Max.  I would/will look into it when I target Aspen as my prime vacation spot some year and obviously will try to plan visits to some of the others on it as well. (Alta/Snowbird, Sun Valley, T-Ride and Taos )  Follow ABC as I think she's on it (along with Epic).  The 17-18 pass products should start to roll out in the next couple of weeks.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## burski (Feb 23, 2017)

The 4000 acres was the biggest laugh for me as well - they must be assuming everything between SB and MRG is skiable terrain....




snoseek said:


> Haha yeah that a big ol stretch for sure. As far as the east goes its sitting on a HUGE chunk of skiable property but 4000 acres is ridiculous.
> 
> I imagine Sugarbush will do fine in the end. It will be the goto place in Northern VT if you want a large diverse mtn without dealing with ridiculous amounts of people. It would make sense for them to hook on with MC for sure. In the long run if they keep the same prices people may come back after dealing with the shitshow that will become Stowe.


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## mbedle (Feb 23, 2017)

Sugarbush has approximately 2,000 in-bound acres surrounding all the cut trails and available woods using traverses. The slidebrrok area is approximately 2,000 acres. Hence the 4K number.


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## dlague (Feb 23, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I looked at the Mountain Collective, but it didn't really make enough sense.  Unless you planned a trip to at least 2 of the resorts, it doesn't seem to help all that much since it is only 2 passes for each mountain.  Whistler and Stowe will now be coming off of the Mountain Collective as well.
> 
> If it provided 3-4 or 5 tickets to each mountain like the MAX Pass does, it would make more sense to me.



I pitched that argument before.  It is two tickets but all purchases after that are 50% off.  So there is a play of sorts rather than paying the full season price of the local resort.



VTKilarney said:


> From a business perspective, touting your place as more "natural" and "least crowded" means that you have lost the race.
> 
> I think that Sugarbush will be fine, but I don't think that a business as usual attitude is going to work.  If I were Win, I'd be talking to ski areas out west that have had to go head to head with Vail.  I'd be looking to form alliances.  I'd be thinking long and hard about what my customer base is going to look like and how to go after them.  He needs to be proactive about this.
> 
> They probably don't have the money, but folding Sugarbush into the Peak Resorts portfolio would make a lot of sense.  Having Hunter and Sugarbush on the same pass would appeal to a LOT of New Yorkers.  And you've also got the Boston crowd covered with the New Hampshire resorts.  But maybe since they already have Mount Snow it would be diminishing returns for Peak.



With POWDR partnering with Intrawest on the MAX Pass and Peak doing their own Multi Resort thing, the independently owned places are starting to fall behind the times.  Even the smaller resorts have something going with the Freedom Pass.


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## machski (Feb 23, 2017)

4aprice said:


> Mountain Collective is much cheaper then Max.  I would/will look into it when I target Aspen as my prime vacation spot some year and obviously will try to plan visits to some of the others on it as well. (Alta/Snowbird, Sun Valley, T-Ride and Taos )  Follow ABC as I think she's on it (along with Epic).  The 17-18 pass products should start to roll out in the next couple of weeks.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ


MC is cheaper than an outright Max, not the add on Max passes for those who can do that.  MC is cheaper because it includes less days on the pass (granted after the days at resorts are used, it gives 50% off unlimited days).

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Highway Star (Feb 23, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> ...Vail Resorts looks forward to integrating Stowe Mountain Resort into its  Epic Pass and other season pass products for the 2017-18 winter season,  subject to the acquisition closing. With the Epic Pass, Vermont skiers  and snowboarders will have unlimited access locally at Stowe at an  attractive price as well as the best of the West at Vail, Beaver Creek,  Breckenridge and Keystone in Colorado; Park City in Utah; Heavenly,  Northstar and Kirkwood in Tahoe; and Whistler Blackcomb in British  Columbia, Canada.



Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800??? 

Note they say "integrate" and not add.


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## dlague (Feb 23, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800???
> 
> Note the say "integrate" and not add.



You are right!  The Epic Pass was $809 last year so it will be closer to $900 and will include Stowe, just like they included Whistler with out an up charge.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800???


I do - or at least I believe that there will not be a surcharge for Stowe.  Bummer for you Killington folks, I know.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> *Does anyone actually believe you're going to get a Epic Pass with unlimited Stowe access for $800??? *
> 
> Note they say "integrate" and not add.



I imagine they will need a slight price increase, perhaps $900?  Even if it's $1000, I dont know how you could argue it's not going to be the best pass option in the east for many.   Look on the bright side, it will definitely pull some people away from Killington.


----------



## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

They did it with Whistler they will do it with Stowe.  So yes I do believe it!


----------



## Highway Star (Feb 23, 2017)

dlague said:


> You are right!  The Epic Pass was $809 last year so it will be closer to $900 and will include Stowe, just like they included Whistler with out an up charge.



Five days at Whistler are included on the 16/17 full Epic pass.  A full whistler pass was about $1200+  on early purchase. What resorts are on the 17/18 Epic will be announced in March. 

I know plenty of Killington skiers that get epic/epic local passes for trips out west, so even limited Stowe access will benefit them.

I’m guessing an Epic pass will give 10 days at Stowe, Epic Local 5 days with Blackouts.  A full Stowe pass will be in the $1200 to $1500 range early purchase, and have all theepic resort access out west.Even thiswill uncomfortably increase crowds.

Anything else would result in abhorrent crowding at Stowe. 

http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/resorts/whistler-blackcomb.aspx


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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

Also worth noting that the epic pass has been steadily climbing every year. Good plan on Vails part hooking everyone, starting with a sub 600 dollar pass a decade ago and slowly rising it while increasing sales. Its still a good value but what about in five years when its gone past a grand. Is it still a good deal to ski with all those crowds?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I looked at the Mountain Collective, but it didn't really make enough sense.  Unless you planned a trip to at least 2 of the resorts, it doesn't seem to help all that much since it is only 2 passes for each mountain.  Whistler and Stowe will now be coming off of the Mountain Collective as well.
> 
> If it provided 3-4 or 5 tickets to each mountain like the MAX Pass does, it would make more sense to me.



Agreed.  I don't think MC Pass is a compelling product.  Only 2 day tickets per mountain is limiting.  Sure, you get 50% off additional tickets, but those are all very expensive mountains, so still pretty expensive add on days.  Also, it's really difficult to do a multi-mountain vacation on MC vs Maxx or Epic.  All of the MC mountains are considerably far apart from one another.


----------



## Highway Star (Feb 23, 2017)

Stowe's nosebleed prices:

https://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/


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## EPB (Feb 23, 2017)

Stowe might well end up on the Epic Local pass that comes with limited blackout dates. I had it the last two years when i was living in the Midwest near one of Vail's ant hills. The first year, it was $550 while the local Vail-owned hill's pass was priced at $420. I believe the Epic Local cost ~$580 last year and got bumped up to $609 this year. I'd expect Stowe to make it on the Epic Local in some capacity for about $650 next year - probably as a member of the group capped at 10 days. 

http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/passes/epic-local-pass.aspx


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

Not for long


----------



## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Sugarbush has approximately 2,000 in-bound acres surrounding all the cut trails and available woods using traverses. The slidebrrok area is approximately 2,000 acres. Hence the 4K number.



Exactly. He didn't say "on trail acreage". Sugarbush openly encourages skiing of all their terrain including Slide Brook. Is every acre of that 4000 skiable? No, but neither are every single acre of in-bounds terrain at other resorts. He didn't lie, you just need to interpret it properly.



VTKilarney said:


> I think that Sugarbush will be fine, but I don't think that a business as usual attitude is going to work.  If I were Win, I'd be talking to ski areas out west that have had to go head to head with Vail.  I'd be looking to form alliances.  I'd be thinking long and hard about what my customer base is going to look like and how to go after them.  He needs to be proactive about this.



For all we know he's already been talking with those areas.



thetrailboss said:


> Not to turn this into another Sugarbush thread, but you have to admit that Win is indeed concerned.  They've always been sandwiched in between Stowe to the north and its lofty reputation and Killington to the south and its reputation.  Stowe was just sold to a HUGE ski resort player.  And I've read that Killington's Base Area expansion was finally approved....whether it happens or not we have yet to see.  So once again Sugarbush has to try to distinguish itself from these two.
> 
> And for the record I like Win.  Always have.  He's done a great job.  But let's understand that it is a tough business and competition is fierce.



"Concerned", sure. "Worried" or "afraid", no. I really don't think Sugarbush needs to do a tremendous amount to distinguish themselves. The first thing that drew me (and many people I know) to SB years ago was that it wasn't the party atmosphere giant K or the ritzy, super-expensive Stowe. It was a laid back area with great terrain, great snow, and great people where you could relax and ski. Stowe loses the super-expensive stigma on season passes with the Vail purchase, but now they stand to gain substantial crowds (beyond the reported crowds they've seen this year with things like the new young adult pass they offered). Maybe the projection of crowds at Stowe is being overblown, but maybe not. I know personally I can't stand crowds and that would be a factor for me. Maybe other people don't mind waiting in lift lines or being stuck in traffic getting up the access road. Good for them if so. I'm certainly not alone in the demographic that wouldn't want to deal with that though.



thetrailboss said:


> Ugh.  I feel like a broken record.  They've ALWAYS had to compete with Stowe to the north and Killington to the south  I'm pretty sure that he either said at a passholder meeting I attended or said on an AZ Challenge that they compared themselves to Stowe and used the same approach--not to underprice their product (like ASC did) and to focus on offering quality over quantity.  Hence, why they always were on the upper end of season pass prices since he took over.
> 
> That said, their pass offerings have responded to pressure by becoming so fragmented.



Having to compete with Stowe and K is one thing, trying to copy either is another. Of course they have to compete with each other. My take is Win's point was not that they wanted to copy Stowe, but simply that they were not going to cut prices simply to sell passes. They were still substantially below Stowe in pricing (before now obviously). I've made posts before on the pricing topic (including one in this thread comparing pricing with K showing that SB was not by any means out of line). While they may be "on the upper end", where else would you expect them to be? With what SB has to offer, I see no reason for them to be offering full adult unrestricted passes for less than places like K. Stowe was always a substantial outlier. SB was then in the next grouping. As long as SB stays there and doesn't become an outlier by themselves, then I think they are fine.



VTKilarney said:


> I do - or at least I believe that there will not be a surcharge for Stowe.  Bummer for you Killington folks, I know.



Agreed, I see no reason why Vail would substantially raise Epic prices just because of the Stowe addition. Do I think it will be $809 like last year? No, I would expect a modest increase (as they've done many years recently). My prediction would be Epic will be somewhere in the $825-850 range. Could it go all the way to $900? Maybe, but I don't quite think it will.


----------



## benski (Feb 23, 2017)

Is this an high school english class? Why are we putting so much effort into understanding Win's mood?


----------



## EPB (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> Not for long



I’m not 100% sure if that was a response to my comment. If you think Stowe won’t be on the Epic Pass, I don’t think you understand Vail’s strategy. The whole point of the thing is to lure people out west so they spend big $$$ on a vacation there. That’s why Stowe is such a great area for Vail to buy -  because of its reach to metro NYC, Boston, and Montreal. The biggest question I have is whether they think that 10 days at Stowe will be compelling enough for easterners to buy it over some of the other options mentioned here.

If you’re referring to pricing, the lineage is pretty clear.


----------



## mbedle (Feb 23, 2017)

Hopefully with the Stowe purchase being done a lot earlier than the Whistler purchase, which I think was done partly into this season, I would expect that Stowe and Whistler will both be fully incorporated into the Epic Pass next season. Hopefully, they will ofter a Stowe only pass cheaper than the Epic pass.


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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

I highly doubt you'll see a Stowe only pass


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## Highway Star (Feb 23, 2017)

snoseek said:


> I highly doubt you'll see a Stowe only pass





eastern powder baby said:


> I’m not 100% sure if that was a response to my comment. If you think Stowe won’t be on the Epic Pass, I don’t think you understand Vail’s strategy. The whole point of the thing is to lure people out west so they spend big $$$ on a vacation there. That’s why Stowe is such a great area for Vail to buy -  because of its reach to metro NYC, Boston, and Montreal. The biggest question I have is whether they think that 10 days at Stowe will be compelling enough for easterners to buy it over some of the other options mentioned here.
> 
> If you’re referring to pricing, the lineage is pretty clear.





mbedle said:


> Hopefully with the Stowe purchase being done a lot earlier than the Whistler purchase, which I think was done partly into this season, I would expect that Stowe and Whistler will both be fully incorporated into the Epic Pass next season. Hopefully, they will ofter a Stowe only pass cheaper than the Epic pass.



Guys, the crowding at Stowe is real. The forerunner and Gondi get massive lines on Weekends.  Yes, they do have Spruce and the Outlook Double, but it's very limiting to ski when crowded.  Killington handles crowds better and you can avoid crowds better.  

Stowe's  *ADULT BLACKOUT PASS WAS $1668 EARLY PURCHASE FOR '16/'17* .  Yes, I understand Vail's strategy, but Vail proper can handle 2 million skier visits per year. Stowe is crowded even with pricing 50% higher then it's competition.  If you go less than its competition, it's going to be like fitting 25lb of crap in a 5lb bag.

Yes, you will get several days of access to Stowe with the epic passes, which will lure easterners who buy a pass to ski out west.  Having western resorts on the Stowe pass will entice people to travel out west.  Just doing that, and keeping a Stowe pass around $1500, will still dramatically increase crowding at Stowe.


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## drjeff (Feb 23, 2017)

snoseek said:


> I highly doubt you'll see a Stowe only pass



Agree 99.999999999%

Never say never after all! ;-)


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## drjeff (Feb 23, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> Guys, the crowding at Stowe is real. The forerunner and Gondi get massive lines on Weekends.  Yes, they do have Spruce and the Outlook Double, but it's very limiting to ski when crowded.  Killington handles crowds better and you can avoid crowds better.
> 
> Stowe's ADULT BLACKOUT PASS WAS $1668 EARLY PURCHASE FOR '16/'17.  Yes, I understand Vail's strategy, but Vail proper can handle 2 million skier visits per year. Stowe is crowded even with pricing 50% higher then it's competition.  If you go less than its competition, it's going to be like fitting 25lb of crap in a 5lb bag.



Agree to the most part.  

The unknown is how will the Epic local rates (if they even offer an Epic local for Stowe) effect the purchase by locals and the Burlington College age crew if it's a decent amount more than the current local deals they get????

I guess we'll find out in the next month or so when the prices for next season Epic drop and we see how it all comes into play with other pass options before we all wait until next winter to really see what happens liftline wise at various areas.......


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## mbedle (Feb 23, 2017)

I was thinking that they may set Whistler and Stowe up like the mid-western resorts.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 23, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Agree to the most part.
> 
> The unknown is how will the Epic local rates effect the purchase by locals and the Burlington College age crew if it's a decent amount more than the current local deals they get????


Very good point.  I've said earlier in this thread that the locals aren't nearly as likely to be making trips out west.  They also aren't the biggest F&B spenders.  I could see putting the squeeze on the locals just to help reduce overcrowding.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2017)

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2017/02/22/vail-buys-stowe/

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## bigbob (Feb 23, 2017)

Perhaps Jay should be more worried about the sale than areas closer to the US markets, Canadians may snap up the cheap Epic passes for Stowe rather than a New York metro skier due to the longer drive time.


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> Guys, the crowding at Stowe is real. The forerunner and Gondi get massive lines on Weekends.  Yes, they do have Spruce and the Outlook Double, but it's very limiting to ski when crowded.  Killington handles crowds better and you can avoid crowds better.
> 
> Stowe's  *ADULT BLACKOUT PASS WAS $1668 EARLY PURCHASE FOR '16/'17* .  Yes, I understand Vail's strategy, but Vail proper can handle 2 million skier visits per year. Stowe is crowded even with pricing 50% higher then it's competition.  If you go less than its competition, it's going to be like fitting 25lb of crap in a 5lb bag.
> 
> Yes, you will get several days of access to Stowe with the epic passes, which will lure easterners who buy a pass to ski out west.  Having western resorts on the Stowe pass will entice people to travel out west.  Just doing that, and keeping a Stowe pass around $1500, will still dramatically increase crowding at Stowe.



I have been out on the mountain over 50 times this year.  Besides the holiday weekends the lines have never been more then 15 minutes in my experience.  Even on the Sat of Presidents weekend you could do the singles line in 15.  So the only over crowding i have seen this year it the parking situation which was just ridiculous.  Once people got to the Mountain the crowds get disbursed pretty well.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 23, 2017)

burski said:


> The 4000 acres was the biggest laugh for me as well - they must be assuming everything between SB and MRG is skiable terrain....





mbedle said:


> Sugarbush has approximately 2,000 in-bound acres surrounding all the cut trails and available woods using traverses. The slidebrrok area is approximately 2,000 acres. Hence the 4K number.





cdskier said:


> Exactly. He didn't say "on trail acreage". Sugarbush openly encourages skiing of all their terrain including Slide Brook. Is every acre of that 4000 skiable? No, but neither are every single acre of in-bounds terrain at other resorts. He didn't lie, you just need to interpret it properly.


Haha come on dude.  It is basically a lie.
If we use that logic, Jay Peak must be close to 4,000+ acres since there's woods all over near there people could possibly explore.  Big Sky, Montana was absolutely huge, but there was woods and hills and stuff that could be hiked all over near the mountain... maybe they should boast 25,000 acres of terrain instead of their piddly 5,700.  Hey, if it doesn't have to be skiable acres, the limits are endless!



deadheadskier said:


> Agreed.  I don't think MC Pass is a compelling product.  Only 2 day tickets per mountain is limiting.  Sure, you get 50% off additional tickets, but those are all very expensive mountains, so still pretty expensive add on days.  Also, it's really difficult to do a multi-mountain vacation on MC vs Maxx or Epic.  All of the MC mountains are considerably far apart from one another.


Agreed.  Also, only Stowe as an East Coast option made it basically pointless unless you had a trip planned to one of those expensive resorts.  At least MAX Pass has a bunch of New England options even if one isn't traveling West or North of New England.



benski said:


> Is this *an* _high school english class_? Why are we putting so much effort into understanding Win's mood?


Oh, the irony.


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## burski (Feb 23, 2017)

Very interesting (and accurate) take on this.



deadheadskier said:


> http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2017/02/22/vail-buys-stowe/
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bushpilot (Feb 23, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed.  I don't think MC Pass is a compelling product.  Only 2 day tickets per mountain is limiting.  Sure, you get 50% off additional tickets, but those are all very expensive mountains, so still pretty expensive add on days.  Also, it's really difficult to do a multi-mountain vacation on MC vs Maxx or Epic.  All of the MC mountains are considerably far apart from one another.



I think the MC is aimed at the wealthy skiers that like to travel but skiing is sort of 2nd or 3rd on the list as opposed to name dropping on places they are going or have been. My thinking (although probably wrong) is that the target MC user goes out to jackson hole on Thursday. Stays 3 nights. They won't ski Thursday but will spend money on dinner and drinks. Maybe they go out Friday and Saturday and they leave Sunday all the time spending money on lodging, food and beverage. If they are avid skiers they pay for a ticket Sunday before they leave. Most are probably planning their Alta/Snowbird trip or already have reservations made. Now when they get back they can tell all their highfalutin friends about how they are taking Constance and Trevor out to Utah in a month and how much they all loved jackson hole but not as much this high end place or that one.


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## yeggous (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I have been out on the mountain over 50 times this year.  Besides the holiday weekends the lines have never been more then 15 minutes in my experience.  Even on the Sat of Presidents weekend you could do the singles line in 15.  So the only over crowding i have seen this year it the parking situation which was just ridiculous.  Once people got to the Mountain the crowds get disbursed pretty well.



15 minute lines are ridiculous. No way I would tolerate that.


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

yeggous said:


> 15 minute lines are ridiculous. No way I would tolerate that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



Thats good one less person at the mountain.   On another note where do you go on a Holiday weekend and not wait 15 minutes?


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## machski (Feb 23, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> Five days at Whistler are included on the 16/17 full Epic pass.  A full whistler pass was about $1200+  on early purchase. What resorts are on the 17/18 Epic will be announced in March.
> 
> I know plenty of Killington skiers that get epic/epic local passes for trips out west, so even limited Stowe access will benefit them.
> 
> ...


You cannot compare what Whistler was this year on EPIC pass.  They said straight up that it would not be fully integrated this year (Whistler was still on MC pass this year too).  I fully expect an unrestricted EPIC pass to be good for unlimited days at Stowe next year since the acquisition is happening early enough.  Vail could care less if it is overcrowded.

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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> Thats good one less person at the mountain.   On another note where do you go on a Holiday weekend and not wait 15 minutes?




Well I'm guessing he would say somewhere in NH, and he would probably be right outside of Loon or maybe Gunstock


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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

machski said:


> You cannot compare what Whistler was this year on EPIC pass.  They said straight up that it would not be fully integrated this year (Whistler was still on MC pass this year too).  I fully expect an unrestricted EPIC pass to be good for unlimited days at Stowe next year since the acquisition is happening early enough.  Vail could care less if it is overcrowded.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app




You're right. They will bump up lift capacity to alleviate lines but that just dumps more people on the hill making it at times a treacherous experience. Also prepare for the traffic police...and as much hate as those people get its absolutely necessary in high traffic areas from my experience.

And that is really my main peeve with the trend for massive uphill capacity. Those six pack and bubble chairs don't create a better experience for this guy. I like fast lifts but too many and you have a shitshow. Check out the bottom of east peak at Heavenly or peak 8 at breck on a busy day....no thanks


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## WWF-VT (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> Thats good one less person at the mountain.   On another note where do you go on a Holiday weekend and not wait 15 minutes?



Mt Ellen


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## bushpilot (Feb 23, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen



/\ Exactly. Sugarbush! LP until 10am and then MEllen for the rest of the day.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> /\ Exactly. Sugarbush! LP until 10am and then MEllen for the rest of the day.



Even LP might be below 15 minutes at Bravo and Valley House. My cousin was there this weekend with his family and said lines were moving pretty quick.


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## bushpilot (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Even LP might be below 15 minutes at Bravo and Valley House. My cousin was there this weekend with his family and said lines were moving pretty quick.



gatehouse seems to be the only one that gets busy around 10 and stays that way until 3.


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen


I was speaking about a real mountain


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## dlague (Feb 23, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I imagine they will need a slight price increase, perhaps $900?  Even if it's $1000, I dont know how you could argue it's not going to be the best pass option in the east for many.   Look on the bright side, it will definitely pull some people away from Killington.


It will not be 1000.  There are too many other competing pass products in competing areas.  I can see close to or around $900.

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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I was speaking about a real mountain


Now you're just trolling......

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## snoseek (Feb 23, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Now you're just trolling......
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app




Hahaha one of the best sustained vertical mountains in the east and stands on its own nationwide and not a "real mountain". Definitely trolling!


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Hahaha one of the best sustained vertical mountains in the east and stands on its own nationwide and not a "real mountain". Definitely trolling!


You must be kidding me.  You are going to compare mt Ellen to Stowe.  That's laughable.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> You must be kidding me.  You are going to compare mt Ellen to Stowe.  That's laughable.


I lived and ski bummed in Stowe for years. It's my favorite Mountain in the East.

On a peak season weekend and especially a holiday weekend, I'll take Mount Ellen these days. 

I'll be skiing. Enjoy standing in line instead.

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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I lived and ski bummed in Stowe for years. It's my favorite Mountain in the East.
> 
> On a peak season weekend and especially a holiday weekend, I'll take Mount Ellen these days.
> 
> ...





deadheadskier said:


> I lived and ski bummed in Stowe for years. It's my favorite Mountain in the East.
> 
> 
> My point being even if you stand in line for a few extra minutes you get up to the top of the mountain much quicker plus you are getting over 2000 ft of vertical.  That is not happening at Mt Ellen.  Plus if you don't won't to wait at all you can go to the spruce side and do sensation lift.  So my bet is that you can get more vertical at Stowe on the same holiday day as you can get at the bush even if you are waiting in line for a longer period of time.  Let's not forget when the bush isn't fully open the lines are way longer the 10 to 15 minutes as well.  When the rock is closed the lines are f**ked.  Also summit chair 10minute lift for a minute run down.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2017)

The conversation is this. Stowe has become an extremely crowded mountain especially in comparison to what it was ten years ago. A lot of people do not care for the increased popularity. The Epic pass will worsen an already bad situation. 

 If you don't find the crowds at Stowe a problem, great, enjoy. Others will choose Sugarbush.  I know that's where I'd likely call home if I shifted back to VT. After primarily calling Wildcat home for the past several years, I  no longer have the tolerance for how crowded Stowe has become on weekends.  Weekdays? It would always be my first choice. 

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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> My point being even if you stand in line for a few extra minutes you get up to the top of the mountain much quicker plus you are getting over 2000 ft of vertical.  That is not happening at Mt Ellen.  Plus if you don't won't to wait at all you can go to the spruce side and do sensation lift.  So my bet is that you can get more vertical at Stowe on the same holiday day as you can get at the bush even if you are waiting in line for a longer period of time.  Let's not forget when the bush isn't fully open the lines are way longer the 10 to 15 minutes as well.  When the rock is closed the lines are f**ked.  Also summit chair 10minute lift for a minute run down.



You get 1700' of vertical at ME lapping the North Ridge chair. A 5 minute lift ride with a few minute wait on a holiday will allow you to rack up much more vertical than you could standing in line at Stowe to ski 2000' of vertical. 

Let's do some math. I'll use 10 minutes to ski down either mountain in this example.

ME: 10 minutes down + 5 minutes up + 5 minutes in line = 1700' in 20 minutes, or 5100' per hour.
Stowe: 10 minutes down + 5 minutes up (not sure what the real number is, but I'll use 5 for simplicity sake) + 15 minutes in line = 2000' in 30 minutes or 4000' per hour.

Explain to me again how you are getting more vertical at Stowe than at ME with 15 minute lines vs 5 minute lines. With no lines you can get more at Stowe, but the case being discussed was when there are crowds.


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> You get 1700' of vertical at ME lapping the North Ridge chair. A 5 minute lift ride with a few minute wait on a holiday will allow you to rack up much more vertical than you could standing in line at Stowe to ski 2000' of vertical.
> 
> Let's do some math. I'll use 10 minutes to ski down either mountain in this example.
> 
> ...


The example I was using was 10 minute lift lines at the bush and 15 at Stowe.  As I thought that is what was implied.  At Stowe you can go over to the sensation lift and have almost no wait and get more vertical.  The point I was trying to make is it's not as simple as saying the mountain as not skiable on holiday weekends.  There is more to it besides how long a lift line is, unless it's extreme.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 23, 2017)

WWF-VT said:


> Mt Ellen



+ 1

Or Burke. Or Middlebury.


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> The example I was using was 10 minute lift lines at the bush and 15 at Stowe.  As I thought that is what was implied.  At Stowe you can go over to the sensation lift and have almost no wait and get more vertical.  The point I was trying to make is it's not as simple as saying the mountain as not skiable on holiday weekends.  There is more to it besides how long a lift line is, unless it's extreme.



Who in their right mind would ski over at Spruce? That is a beginners area and is a total bore. I'd rather not ski. So this is a crap argument.


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Who in their right mind would ski over at Spruce? That is a beginners area and is a total bore. I'd rather not ski. So this is a crap argument.


Your telling me that the sensation quad is beginners, really?


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## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 23, 2017)

Yup


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Yup


That's laughable.  I guess in your mind elbow is a double black diamond.  Get real!


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Yup


Oh, I guess the division 1 UVM race team that skis over there is skiing beginners terrain.  Stop embarrassing yourself.


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## cdskier (Feb 23, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> The example I was using was 10 minute lift lines at the bush and 15 at Stowe.  As I thought that is what was implied.  At Stowe you can go over to the sensation lift and have almost no wait and get more vertical.  The point I was trying to make is it's not as simple as saying the mountain as not skiable on holiday weekends.  There is more to it besides how long a lift line is, unless it's extreme.



Why would 10 minutes have been implied? If we were talking about LP, then sure a 10 minute lift line on a holiday wouldn't be surprising. But we were talking about where to go to avoid crowds and the answer was ME. The implication of saying ME is good to avoid crowds is that the lift lines are short. Maybe we have different definitions of short, but 10 minutes is not a short line to me. 5 minutes is a short line.


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## hovercraft (Feb 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Why would 10 minutes have been implied? If we were talking about LP, then sure a 10 minute lift line on a holiday wouldn't be surprising. But we were talking about where to go to avoid crowds and the answer was ME. The implication of saying ME is good to avoid crowds is that the lift lines are short. Maybe we have different definitions of short, but 10 minutes is not a short line to me. 5 minutes is a short line.


I thought 10 was used somewhere.  We do have different definitions of what is acceptable.  In my mind I am ok to wait up to 15 minutes to get to the top of the mountain for all the vertical and choice I get st Stowe.  More then that not so much.  Again my point being it's just not about lift lines there are other factors to consider as people make value judgments on where they want to ski or ride.  By no means am I knocking SB love the mountain and terrain.


----------



## SnowRock (Feb 23, 2017)

To clarify on the mountain collective, I think it was 389 early with the third bonus day at a mountain of your choice. As a flatlander who gets to Stowe about 10 days a season  I very much like the product. By the end of the season I will have 16 days at a combination of Stowe, Jackson and Snowbird for under 1k... will put me aroud 60 a day. For me that's not bad given the caliber of terrain.

If I was sugarbush I'd definitely try and get added to the MC... I know the Stowe folks said it sold pretty well the past two seasons.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 23, 2017)

Give me Mt Ellen over Stowe any weekend day. Hands down.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2017)

drjeff said:


> The unknown is how will the Epic local rates (if they even offer an Epic local for Stowe) effect *the purchase by locals and the Burlington College age crew* if it's a decent amount more than the current local deals they get????



The first thing I'd do if I was Vail was kneecap the Burlington College age crew.  Doesn't fit their demo, doesn't fit their vision/goal, and would help lessen the crowding somewhat.  If there's a group that needs to be sacrificed, it's them.



eastern powder baby said:


> If you think Stowe won’t be on the Epic Pass, I don’t think you understand Vail’s strategy. *The whole point of the thing is to lure people out west so they spend big $$$ on a vacation there. That’s why Stowe is such a great area for Vail to buy -  because of its reach to metro NYC, Boston, and Montreal. *



And the clientele with the disposable income to afford an annual week-ling western ski trip.



cdskier said:


> *He didn't say "on trail acreage".* Sugarbush openly encourages skiing of all their terrain including Slide Brook. *Is every acre of that 4000 skiable? No, but* neither are every single acre of in-bounds terrain at other resorts. *He didn't lie, you just need to interpret it properly.*


----------



## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> The first thing I'd do if I was Vail was kneecap the Burlington College age crew.  Doesn't fit their demo, doesn't fit their vision/goal, and would help lessen the crowding somewhat.  If there's a group that needs to be sacrificed, it's them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you look at the epic pass options they have a college pass, plus a graduate pass as well as other options.  Not sure they will do that.  I wouldn't be surprised if they bring Stowe into the fold just like their other mountains.  For better or worst. It's their business model.  The article someone posted earlier on Vail being a disrupter gives you their road map.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 24, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> Who in their right mind would ski over at Spruce? That is a beginners area and is a total bore. I'd rather not ski. So this is a crap argument.



This might be the dumbest thing stated in this thread...  I'll enjoy laps off the Sensation Quad while you wait in line at the four runner.


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## Smellytele (Feb 24, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> This might be the dumbest thing stated in this thread...  I'll enjoy laps off the Sensation Quad while you wait in line at the four runner.



Spruce line under the top of the quad and the glades it runs into is fun as is main street headwall. Smuggs isn't bad either.


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## farlep99 (Feb 24, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/2017/02/22/vail-buys-stowe/
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Interesting read.  The only thing I disagree wholeheartedly with is "Because once you’ve ridden modern high speed lifts, slow ones are anathema."  I'd rather wait in a lift line than ski trails with hoards of people.  It's sometimes just outright dangerous.  I hate the trend of high speed+high capacity lifts in skiing.  I'll take a slow ride any day.  But I guess that's something that isn't going to change


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> I'd rather wait in a lift line than ski trails with hoards of people.  It's sometimes just outright dangerous.  I hate the trend of high speed+high capacity lifts in skiing.


Generally speaking, high speed lifts don't dump more people on the trail than regular lifts.  Lift capacity is what matters.


----------



## Jcb890 (Feb 24, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> Interesting read.  The only thing I disagree wholeheartedly with is "Because once you’ve ridden modern high speed lifts, slow ones are anathema."  I'd rather wait in a lift line than ski trails with hoards of people.  It's sometimes just outright dangerous.  I hate the trend of high speed+high capacity lifts in skiing.  I'll take a slow ride any day.  But I guess that's something that isn't going to change


I wholeheartedly disagree.  I dislike crowded trails also, but slow chairs make the experience painfully boring.


----------



## cdskier (Feb 24, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree.  I dislike crowded trails also, but slow chairs make the experience painfully boring.



As long as high speed/capacity chairs are on terrain that can spread people out and handle it, I'm fine with them (and generally speaking prefer them). There also are certain areas of terrain that I'm perfectly ok with a slow chair that has a line (i.e. Castlerock). I guess the bottom line for me is that capacity/speed needs to match the terrain it serves.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I guess the bottom line for me is that capacity/speed needs to match the terrain it serves.


Well said.


----------



## Jcb890 (Feb 24, 2017)

cdskier said:


> As long as high speed/capacity chairs are on terrain that can spread people out and handle it, I'm fine with them (and generally speaking prefer them). There also are certain areas of terrain that I'm perfectly ok with a slow chair that has a line (i.e. Castlerock). *I guess the bottom line for me is that capacity/speed needs to match the terrain it serves.*


That is a good and valid point, but I still find slow chairs painful no matter what.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Spruce line under the top of the quad and the glades it runs into is fun as is main street headwall.



Whirlaway is one of my favorite trails at Stowe with good snow.  It gets little moguls on it, and there's that tiny rock formation in the middle you can jump off.   The poster who claimed Spruce is all beginner skiing has obviously never even skied at Stowe.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 24, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> This might be the dumbest thing stated in this thread...  I'll enjoy laps off the Sensation Quad while you wait in line at the four runner.



I never said I would wait in line at the quad. What I am saying is I'd rather ski a different ski area then ski at Spruce. Or not ski at all if it is so busy that is what you have to do to salvage the day. How many times can you ski the same terrain with becoming bored? You can lap that chair all you want if that makes you happy. Good for you.
Vail is going to completely ruin the Stowe experience. I would only get an Epic Pass for skiing at their resorts out west.
I'm exactly the kind of person they are looking for.


----------



## Shredmonkey254 (Feb 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whirlaway is one of my favorite trails at Stowe with good snow.  It gets little moguls on it, and there's that tiny rock formation in the middle you can jump off.   The poster who claimed Spruce is all beginner skiing has obviously never even skied at Stowe.


The only thing worth skiing off Spruce is Tusk. Go find it. I know exactly where it is.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> The only thing worth skiing off Spruce is Tusk. Go find it. I know exactly where it is.


Go ski Tusk on Sunday. Take Pictures!

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> The only thing worth skiing off Spruce is Tusk. Go find it. I know exactly where it is.



So do many other people, maybe we all should get a gold star.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2017)

Now that Vail is taking over Stowe, my biggest question is if resources will be allocated for a search and recovery mission of someone's lost skis off of Kitchen Wall.  That is a big concern.


----------



## snoseek (Feb 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Now that Vail is taking over Stowe, my biggest question is if resources will be allocated for a search and recovery mission of someone's lost skis off of Kitchen Wall.  That is a big concern.




Some say he's still there to this day searching for his long lost skis!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whirlaway is one of my favorite trails at Stowe with good snow.  It gets little moguls on it, and there's that tiny rock formation in the middle you can jump off.   The poster who claimed Spruce is all beginner skiing has obviously never even skied at Stowe.



It often has some of the best snow on the mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2017)

snoseek said:


> Some say he's still there to this day searching for his long lost skis!



I think that it will become the basis for a wonderful mystery novel.


----------



## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I think that it will become the basis for a wonderful mystery novel.


Might have to call in the Pink Panther.......


----------



## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It often has some of the best snow on the mountain.



Agreed love that trail!!!


----------



## sugarbushskier9 (Feb 24, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> To clarify on the mountain collective, I think it was 389 early with the third bonus day at a mountain of your choice. As a flatlander who gets to Stowe about 10 days a season  I very much like the product. By the end of the season I will have 16 days at a combination of Stowe, Jackson and Snowbird for under 1k... will put me aroud 60 a day. For me that's not bad given the caliber of terrain.
> 
> If I was sugarbush I'd definitely try and get added to the MC... I know the Stowe folks said it sold pretty well the past two seasons.



I heard from someone at Ski Vermont that Sugarbush will be on the Mountain Collective, taking Stowe's spot because MC needs a higher end Vermont resort on their list to do essentially what Vail is doing with Stowe...get the big city skiers on their pass for western trips.

They lost Stowe so the next obvious choice would be Sugarbush and it sounds like Win is on-board.  To be announced this spring.


----------



## sugarbushskier9 (Feb 24, 2017)

Also heard that Stowe will be on the Epic pass next season for the same price as the other Vail resorts.  So it would seem like Stowe seasons passes just got a lot cheaper ($850 or so).  Jay Peak and Smuggs are still less than that I think but Sugarbush likely will be the most expensive pass in the state for unrestricted adult pass now.  The pass pricing this spring should be interesting to see once everyone releases their price list.  

Big changes coming to the VT ski industry.


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2017)

Does Killington need to reconsider their pricing, or are they a big enough player far enough away?


----------



## Jcb890 (Feb 24, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> I heard from someone at Ski Vermont that Sugarbush will be on the Mountain Collective, taking Stowe's spot because MC needs a higher end Vermont resort on their list to do essentially what Vail is doing with Stowe...get the big city skiers on their pass for western trips.
> 
> They lost Stowe so the next obvious choice would be Sugarbush and it sounds like Win is on-board.  To be announced this spring.


The Mountain Collective still seems to be a less desireable pass option unless you are specifically targeting one (or most likely more) of the resorts from the list.



sugarbushskier9 said:


> Also heard that Stowe will be on the Epic pass next season for the same price as the other Vail resorts.  So it would seem like Stowe seasons passes just got a lot cheaper ($850 or so).  Jay Peak and Smuggs are still less than that I think but Sugarbush likely will be the most expensive pass in the state for unrestricted adult pass now.  The pass pricing this spring should be interesting to see once everyone releases their price list.
> 
> Big changes coming to the VT ski industry.


This seems to be the most common line of thinking and would be nice.



VTKilarney said:


> Does Killington need to reconsider their pricing, or are they a big enough player far enough away?


They probably all should to compete (let's hope).


----------



## bushpilot (Feb 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> now that vail is taking over stowe, my biggest question is if resources will be allocated for a search and recovery mission of someone's lost skis off of kitchen wall.  That is a big concern.



lmao


----------



## sugarbushskier9 (Feb 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Not to turn this into another Sugarbush thread, but you have to admit that Win is indeed concerned.  They've always been sandwiched in between Stowe to the north and its lofty reputation and Killington to the south and its reputation.  Stowe was just sold to a HUGE ski resort player.  And I've read that Killington's Base Area expansion was finally approved....whether it happens or not we have yet to see.  So once again Sugarbush has to try to distinguish itself from these two.
> 
> And for the record I like Win.  Always have.  He's done a great job.  But let's understand that it is a tough business and competition is fierce.



Of course Win is concerned.  That's what that email was about.  Please consider us before jumping ship...and buy some real estate.  

There's abosolutely no reason to issue that email.  I ski both Stowe and Sugarbush on the 30s passes but from what I've seen the crowd issue at Stowe is vastly overstated.  It's really only holidays and Lincoln Peak was no picnic last weekend waiting for Heavens Gate.  If anything I've skied pretty equal days at both places and think the fixed grip lifts at Sugarbush build longer lines than anything I've seen at the resort to the north though I haven't hit Stowe on a holiday weekend so there's that. Mon-Fri the place is empty. And they run a slick operation.  In poor snow conditions I think they are way above with their snow management, grooming, snowmaking, etc.  

To me Mount Ellen is Sugarbush's best asset.  I'm not a fan of the Stowe base village at Spruce but when parking at Mansfield it's basically two lifts that go top to bottom, a parking lot and two old base lodges.  You don't have to walk a long distance through a base area and it seems very similar to Mt Ellen in that regard.  You park, boot up next to your car which is next to the snow surface.  When done you just ski to your car.  

But Stowe and Mt Ellen don't have Castlerock and Lincoln Peak seems to have more narrow New England trails like Moonshine and Twist.  

I like having multiple passes as you can play the weather, crowds and your mood.  I'm already thinking of an Epic Pass and Sugarbush 30s pass for next year.  Living in Montpelier it's easy to get to both.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> The Mountain Collective still seems to be a less desireable pass option unless you are specifically targeting one (or most likely more) of the resorts from the list.
> 
> 
> This seems to be the most common line of thinking and would be nice.
> ...



The Mountain Collective addition though should be big plus for Sugarbush pass holders that take western trips.  As a session pass holder you get unlimited 50% tickets to the other MC mountains.  Like this year my Stowe young adult pass gets me 50% day tickets at Jackson, Alta, Aspen, etc which is a nice perk.  You don't have to pay extra for it.  Next year I'll have those options but on my Sugarbush pass while my Stowe pass will get me all Vail resorts, haha.  Huge options for western trips.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Does Killington need to reconsider their pricing, or are they a big enough player far enough away?



Oh POWDR will not be happy that Vail is near their backyard........*POWDR already suffered a terrible defeat at the hands of Vail.*

That said, I doubt they will adjust their pricing that much.


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> The Mountain Collective addition though should be big plus for Sugarbush pass holders that take western trips.  As a session pass holder you get unlimited 50% tickets to the other MC mountains.  Like this year my Stowe young adult pass gets me 50% day tickets at Jackson, Alta, Aspen, etc which is a nice perk.  You don't have to pay extra for it.  Next year I'll have those options but on my Sugarbush pass while my Stowe pass will get me all Vail resorts, haha.  Huge options for western trips.



Good point--forgot about that.  One big benefit is that if your resort is in the MC your season pass at that resort gets you 50% off at the other resorts....as you mention.  That is a nice perk.  How much have I used mine?  Zero.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Feb 24, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Good point--forgot about that.  One big benefit is that if your resort is in the MC your season pass at that resort gets you 50% off at the other resorts....as you mention.  That is a nice perk.  How much have I used mine?  Zero.



Ha right.  But for sales it's a perk for the family from Boston who owns a place in the MRV and buys a pass but then is trying to decide on the yearly western trip.  All the sudden the whole family gets 50% at Jackson Hole so guess where they are going on vacation?  This is why MC needs to stay at a Vermont resort.  

From what I've heard from my Ski Vermont contact is that it's been wildly successful at Stowe as it also brings new customers to the place who wouldn't normally or who never have been butjust happen to have either days to use of 50% off.  Those people will go to Sugarbush next season and be like wow this is a cool place.  And then you've captured them.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Ha right.  But for sales it's a perk for the family from Boston who owns a place in the MRV and buys a pass but then is trying to decide on the yearly western trip.  All the sudden the whole family gets 50% at Jackson Hole so guess where they are going on vacation?  This is why MC needs to stay at a Vermont resort.
> 
> From what I've heard from my Ski Vermont contact is that it's been wildly successful at Stowe as it also brings new customers to the place who wouldn't normally or who never have been butjust happen to have either days to use of 50% off.  Those people will go to Sugarbush next season and be like wow this is a cool place.  And then you've captured them.



Yep.  Exactly.  Had there been better snow, I would have used my benefit at Stowe last year (Alta/Snowbird Passholder)


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 24, 2017)

Shredmonkey254 said:


> *The only thing worth skiing off Spruce is Tusk. Go find it. I know exactly where it is.*



Have we discovered a new HighwayStar?


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## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Ha right.  But for sales it's a perk for the family from Boston who owns a place in the MRV and buys a pass but then is trying to decide on the yearly western trip.  All the sudden the whole family gets 50% at Jackson Hole so guess where they are going on vacation?  This is why MC needs to stay at a Vermont resort.
> 
> From what I've heard from my Ski Vermont contact is that it's been wildly successful at Stowe as it also brings new customers to the place who wouldn't normally or who never have been butjust happen to have either days to use of 50% off.  Those people will go to Sugarbush next season and be like wow this is a cool place.  And then you've captured them.



I agree with you about the crowds @ Stowe being overstated.  On the MC, case in point my whole family has season passes @ Stowe.  Being part of the MC we went to Jackson this year and used our Stowe pass for 50% off.  So lift tickets were only 63 instead of 126.  It was a nice perk.  SB should join the MC in my opinion.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 24, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Ha right.  But for sales it's a perk for the family from Boston who owns a place in the MRV and buys a pass but then is trying to decide on the yearly western trip.  All the sudden the whole family gets 50% at Jackson Hole so guess where they are going on vacation?  This is why MC needs to stay at a Vermont resort.
> 
> From what I've heard from my Ski Vermont contact is that it's been wildly successful at Stowe as it also brings new customers to the place who wouldn't normally or who never have been butjust happen to have either days to use of 50% off.  Those people will go to Sugarbush next season and be like wow this is a cool place.  *And then you've captured them.*


Not if they only plan to visit said resort due to the pass, which is how a lot of people operate.

I've got the MAX Pass this season, so I've been to Loon for the first time in maybe 10+ years.  I'm not hooked or captured.  If Loon decides to drop from the MAX Pass next season or there is a better option than the MAX Pass that does not include Loon, guess what, I won't be riding at Loon next season.

Still, a nice perk to have attached to the standard season pass if you already plan to buy one and they're on it.

Let's say you don't have a Western trip planned and bought the pass for $349 last season.  What did that get you?  2 days at Stowe which is nice.  But, you haven't paid off the pass yet even at the $129/day window price, you're now at $258 based on the window price (which almost nobody pays anyways).  Your 3rd and any more Stowe days costs $64.50 which isn't bad.  It takes you 2 additional Stowe trips to get your /day average down under $100 (4 total days).

How many days do you need to go back to Stowe to get your average down to something reasonable?  Even at 10 days you're looking at $349 (MC) + $517 ($64.50 x 8 days).  Your average with 10 days at Stowe is still $86.60 per day.  When purchasing a pass, that is honestly ridiculous and you're doing a bad job of saving money.

Maybe I'm looking at this illogically, but this is how I looked at it to begin the season.  With only 1 New England option, it just makes no sense unless you have at least 1-2 Western trips planned to those specific resorts.  And even then, it still seems like there are better options... just not to those specific resorts.


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## sugarbushskier9 (Feb 24, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> *Not if they only plan to visit said resort due to the pass, which is how a lot of people operate.
> 
> I've got the MAX Pass this season, so I've been to Loon for the first time in maybe 10+ years.* * I'm not hooked or captured.  If Loon decides to drop from the MAX Pass next season or there is a better option than the MAX Pass that does not include Loon, guess what, I won't be riding at Loon next season.*
> 
> ...



Yeah so you weren't that thrilled with Loon...BUT it did get you there to at least try it.  That's the main point.  As a resort you then have to wow those people.  In order to have the opportunity to impress people you have to get them there in the first place.  Of course many won't be wowed (it could be something as simple as the weather on the day you went wasn't that good) but these types of pass products at least get you to that specific resort.  This year the Max Pass gave Loon a chance to wow you, but it failed.  That's an issue for Loon but in the end it did get you to that resort that you might otherwise never have visited.  

I do think the industry is heading towards consolidation in passes, people like the variety and it adds value in their minds.

The Collective Pass though isn't meant to be for just one resort, so if you frequent one spot it makes no sense.  Its for people who get around and have the means and financial resources to visit places all over the place during the winter.


----------



## dlague (Feb 24, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Does Killington need to reconsider their pricing, or are they a big enough player far enough away?


Well if they stay on the Max Pass then they are ok.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## hovercraft (Feb 24, 2017)

The other benefit to a pass holder who's  mountain is part of the collective is having 1/2 price lift tickets to the other mountains.  It's a nice perk that add's value to the product. Win/Win


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Go ski Tusk on Sunday. Take Pictures!
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Dude! Why you trying to blow up my spot? Leave the goods for the rest of us. Tusk is in prime condition

Sent from my SM-N910V using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jcb890 (Feb 27, 2017)

sugarbushskier9 said:


> Yeah so you weren't that thrilled with Loon...BUT it did get you there to at least try it.  That's the main point.  As a resort you then have to wow those people.  In order to have the opportunity to impress people you have to get them there in the first place.  Of course many won't be wowed (it could be something as simple as the weather on the day you went wasn't that good) but these types of pass products at least get you to that specific resort.  This year the Max Pass gave Loon a chance to wow you, but it failed.  That's an issue for Loon but in the end it did get you to that resort that you might otherwise never have visited.
> 
> I do think the industry is heading towards consolidation in passes, people like the variety and it adds value in their minds.
> 
> The Collective Pass though isn't meant to be for just one resort, so if you frequent one spot it makes no sense.  Its for people who get around and have the means and financial resources to visit places all over the place during the winter.


I should have been more explicit.

I am far enough away (2-3 hrs from most mountains in VT/NH) that I do not consider any of the mountains my "home" mountain and do not have season passes to any of them.  The MAX Pass gives us the opportunity to hit a bunch of New England mountains up to 5 times each.  Even still, we won't be purchasing a season pass to any of these mountains.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

http://www.wcax.com/category/166239/video-landing-page?clipId=13193372&autostart=true

Seems like a 2:40 ad for Sugarbush, but it does include feedback from MRG and other areas.


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## mbedle (Mar 27, 2017)

So the http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/passes/epic-pass.aspx website has been updated to list Stowe under the full Epic Pass (with the caveat that its subject to the closing). Tried calling to see if you do purchase it, and the closing doesn't take place you will get a refund. Doesn't list any other options for Stowe, like a local only pass, college pass, 30 something pass, etc. Guessing Sugarbush is going to see a jump in 30 something and college pass sales this summer.


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## benski (Mar 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Guessing Sugarbush is going to see a jump in 30 something and college pass sales this summer.


They actually don't sell college passes early season. They start selling them in September and increase the rate around election day so its cheapest for college kids to purchase in the fall.


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> So the http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/passes/epic-pass.aspx website has been updated to list Stowe under the full Epic Pass (with the caveat that its subject to the closing). Tried calling to see if you do purchase it, and the closing doesn't take place you will get a refund. Doesn't list any other options for Stowe, like a local only pass, college pass, 30 something pass, etc. Guessing Sugarbush is going to see a jump in 30 something and college pass sales this summer.


They will have all the same options as the other mountains do.  Received an email from them this morning stating that they will appear after the closing which is supposed to happen May 1st


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## dlague (Mar 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> So the http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/passes/epic-pass.aspx website has been updated to list Stowe under the full Epic Pass (with the caveat that its subject to the closing). Tried calling to see if you do purchase it, and the closing doesn't take place you will get a refund. Doesn't list any other options for Stowe, like a local only pass, college pass, 30 something pass, etc. Guessing Sugarbush is going to see a jump in 30 something and college pass sales this summer.



I have never seen Vail offer College Pass, or 30 Something Pass.  Why do many here think they will do something out of the norm for Vail because they bought Stowe.  They have not done much out of the ordinary with Whistler where they paid 20 times as much for.

This was a curious move:

Epic Local Pass

Also includes a total of 10 combined days at Vail, Beaver Creek, Whistler Blackcomb, and Stowe (subject to the closing of the acquisition) with holiday restrictions.


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## mbedle (Mar 27, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> They will have all the same options as the other mountains do.  Received an email from them this morning stating that they will appear after the closing which is supposed to happen May 1st



The problem with that is not all of Vail's mountain have the same options available. Some have college passes, some have local only passes and some have their own independent season passes (Whistler). None of them have a 30 something type pass.


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> The problem with that is not all of Vail's mountain have the same options available. Some have college passes, some have local only passes and some have their own independent season passes (Whistler). None of them have a 30 something type pass.


I was speaking of the college pass.  I would think that Vail wouldn't give up the college pass as it is such a big draw to sell season passes and that is what Vail is all about.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

benski said:


> They actually don't sell college passes early season. They start selling them in September and increase the rate around election day so its cheapest for college kids to purchase in the fall.



Exactly.  And IIRC Vail historically only does Adult, Junior, and College.  I would not expect them to do a "20 something" or "30 something" pass because it already is heavily discounted.  Their blackout pass is on the order of $549 for an adult.  We're talking about the same price as a Burke only pass.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 27, 2017)

dlague said:


> I have never seen Vail offer College Pass, or 30 Something Pass.  Why do many here think they will do something out of the norm for Vail because they bought Stowe.  They have not done much out of the ordinary with Whistler where they paid 20 times as much for.
> 
> This was a curious move:
> 
> ...



Don't they offer a college pass at Park City?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Don't they offer a college pass at Park City?



Yes.


----------



## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2017)

I just spoke to the Epic office.  They will be offering other products for Stowe.  They do not know what they are yet (at that level anyway).  They did tell me you can buy the epic pass now and if another product gets announced that fits you better you can change products.


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## mbedle (Mar 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  And IIRC Vail historically only does Adult, Junior, and College.  I would not expect them to do a "20 something" or "30 something" pass because it already is heavily discounted.  Their blackout pass is on the order of $549 for an adult.  We're talking about the same price as a Burke only pass.



I was thinking that Vail would have a good handle on how many additional skier visits Stowe saw this year under the 30 something pass. By ending that and increasing the price up to $849 might send a lot of them back to Sugarbush. I think epic local only has 10 days at Stowe.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 27, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I just spoke to the Epic office.  They will be offering other products for Stowe.  They do not know what they are yet (at that level anyway).  They did tell me you can buy the epic pass now and if another product gets announced that fits you better you can change products.




Good news, thanks for calling.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I was thinking that Vail would have a good handle on how many additional skier visits Stowe saw this year under the 30 something pass. By ending that and increasing the price up to $849 might send a lot of them back to Sugarbush. I think epic local only has 10 days at Stowe.



Yes, it will be very interesting to see what Vail does with Stowe's pricing.  The easy thing is to simply use the Epic Pass template--a locals pass with blackouts, the full Epic, and the college/youth options.  You raise an interesting point about the 30's pass that Stowe offered...on a very limited geographic basis.  That was clearly aimed at Sugarbush.  I would be interesting to hear if that was wildly successful.  It seemed very limited as to who could get it.  My gut tells me though that they will just push their Epic Local at the $639 pricepoint. At least for now.


----------



## dlague (Mar 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, it will be very interesting to see what Vail does with Stowe's pricing.  The easy thing is to simply use the Epic Pass template--a locals pass with blackouts, the full Epic, and the college/youth options.  You raise an interesting point about the 30's pass that Stowe offered...on a very limited geographic basis.  That was clearly aimed at Sugarbush.  I would be interesting to hear if that was wildly successful.  It seemed very limited as to who could get it.  My gut tells me though that they will just push their Epic Local at the $639 pricepoint. At least for now.



Is Vail really interested in the Vermont College crowd?


----------



## cdskier (Mar 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, it will be very interesting to see what Vail does with Stowe's pricing.  The easy thing is to simply use the Epic Pass template--a locals pass with blackouts, the full Epic, and the college/youth options.  You raise an interesting point about the 30's pass that Stowe offered...on a very limited geographic basis.  That was clearly aimed at Sugarbush.  I would be interesting to hear if that was wildly successful.  It seemed very limited as to who could get it.  *My gut tells me though that they will just push their Epic Local at the $639 pricepoint.* At least for now.



The problem with that thought from a Stowe perspective is the Epic Local pass on the Epic website says it is only good for 10 days at Stowe, Vail, Beaver Creek, and Whistler combined. So for a Stowe skier, that pass is pretty much useless. 

It will be interesting to see what (if anything) they end up doing for that 20-30s age range for Stowe. If they don't offer anything, Sugarbush will be a very tempting alternative for those groups then at $349 for 20s and $549 for 30s vs the full Epic pass at $849. One other consideration is if those people planned on making any western trips, then the extra money for the Epic could make sense.

The other question is when will Stowe/Vail announce the rest of their pass options for Stowe. Sugarbush's early prices are only valid until May 3rd. If they are waiting until after the deal closes and they are expecting that to happen around May 1, that leaves little time for them to announce passes and for people to make decisions.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

cdskier said:


> The problem with that thought from a Stowe perspective is the Epic Local pass on the Epic website says it is only good for 10 days at Stowe, Vail, Beaver Creek, and Whistler combined. So for a Stowe skier, that pass is pretty much useless.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what (if anything) they end up doing for that 20-30s age range for Stowe. If they don't offer anything, Sugarbush will be a very tempting alternative for those groups then at $349 for 20s and $549 for 30s vs the full Epic pass at $849. One other consideration is if those people planned on making any western trips, then the extra money for the Epic could make sense.
> 
> The other question is when will Stowe/Vail announce the rest of their pass options for Stowe. Sugarbush's early prices are only valid until May 3rd. If they are waiting until after the deal closes and they are expecting that to happen around May 1, that leaves little time for them to announce passes and for people to make decisions.



So to clarify, I would expect them to modify that Local Epic Offering.  It's interesting that they have not yet.  Perhaps offer a Stowe-only version.  I do not expect them to create a specific 30's only product because their line theoretically has an offering that is close to that pricerange.  I think that Sugarbush is unusual in that they have made so many different products for so many different markets.  Vail does not play that game--they want you committed to them and to buy one of their limited products.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, it will be very interesting to see what Vail does with Stowe's pricing.



My guess is that it's going to be a great deal next year.   This will be done to drive initial volume. Then they'll slowly increase the price over the years to increase revenue and aid in retention.   That seems to be their M.O.



dlague said:


> Is Vail really interested in the Vermont College crowd?



Doubtful.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> So to clarify, I would expect them to modify that Local Epic Offering.  It's interesting that they have not yet.  Perhaps offer a Stowe-only version.  I do not expect them to create a specific 30's only product because their line theoretically has an offering that is close to that pricerange.  I think that Sugarbush is unusual in that they have made so many different products for so many different markets.  Vail does not play that game--they want you committed to them and to buy one of their limited products.



Ironically it was Stowe that caused Sugarbush to create their For 30s pass. SB had the For 20s pass for 5 years now (and that pass made a lot of sense), but it wasn't until last year when Stowe announced in the late summer that they were doing a Young Adult pass that covered up to age 34 that SB responded and created an "Early 30s" pass which they've now changed to cover the entire 30s age range for next year. I didn't particularly think it was necessary to do that, but it benefits me so who am I to complain? 

As for a Stowe-only local pass version, I have a hard time thinking they will end up doing that. The Epic pass itself is already half the price of Stowe's previous adult pass, so is there really a need? I would think Epic alone should have easily driven an increase in Stowe pass sales over previous years due to the cheap price. I think a cheaper local option in Stowe's case would only undercut their own Epic pass sales potentially and wouldn't really steal much from anyone else at this point.


----------



## boston_e (Mar 27, 2017)

Looks like Stowe is to be included in the Epic pass after all...

http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/vailresorts/epic-pass-stowe.htm

So basically $859 for a Stowe season pass.  Will be interesting to see how Killington and others respond.


----------



## farlep99 (Mar 27, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I just spoke to the Epic office.  They will be offering other products for Stowe.  They do not know what they are yet (at that level anyway).  They did tell me you can buy the epic pass now and if another product gets announced that fits you better you can change products.



That seems to contradict what's on the Stowe FAQ section of snow.com...

*If I buy an Epic Pass now, and then decide to purchase a Stowe-only product once they are announced, can I exchange my pass?*
No. All Epic Passes are non-refundable and non-transferrable.

http://www.snow.com/epic-pass/info/stowe-faq.aspx


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 27, 2017)

RIP stowe.


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## mbedle (Mar 27, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> That seems to contradict what's on the Stowe FAQ section of snow.com...
> 
> *If I buy an Epic Pass now, and then decide to purchase a Stowe-only product once they are announced, can I exchange my pass?*
> No. All Epic Passes are non-refundable and non-transferrable.
> ...



That sucks and is pretty shitty of Vail to do that. If its anything like Whistler, the Stowe only season pass may end up being more expensive than the epic pass.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Ironically it was Stowe that caused Sugarbush to create their For 30s pass. SB had the For 20s pass for 5 years now (and that pass made a lot of sense), but it wasn't until last year when Stowe announced in the late summer that they were doing a Young Adult pass that covered up to age 34 that SB responded and created an "Early 30s" pass which they've now changed to cover the entire 30s age range for next year. I didn't particularly think it was necessary to do that, but it benefits me so who am I to complain?
> 
> As for a Stowe-only local pass version, I have a hard time thinking they will end up doing that. The Epic pass itself is already half the price of Stowe's previous adult pass, so is there really a need? I would think Epic alone should have easily driven an increase in Stowe pass sales over previous years due to the cheap price. I think a cheaper local option in Stowe's case would only undercut their own Epic pass sales potentially and wouldn't really steal much from anyone else at this point.



Right.  But wasn't the Stowe version pretty limited as to where one had to live to get one?  Like literally two or three counties.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Right.  But wasn't the Stowe version pretty limited as to where one had to live to get one?  Like literally two or three counties.



No...you could be from anywhere. It had a few blacked out days, but other than that you just had to be age 19-34. (Still listed on their website in the season pass section). Maybe you're thinking of the "County" pass? That was only valid for residents of 3 counties and even then it wasn't exactly cheap. Epic is cheaper than the County pass was.


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2017)

farlep99 said:


> That seems to contradict what's on the Stowe FAQ section of snow.com...
> 
> *If I buy an Epic Pass now, and then decide to purchase a Stowe-only product once they are announced, can I exchange my pass?*
> No. All Epic Passes are non-refundable and non-transferrable.
> ...



Don't know what to say as she assured me you could change products.  Since I am a season pass holder with no restrictions I doubt that they would have another product that would fit me better .  I was asking out of curiosity anyway.  You only put down 49.00 anyway until September so I am not sure why they wouldn't let you change a product if they came out after the fact with one that worked better for their customer.  I guess we will see.


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2017)

I know someone in the marketing Dept who told me that over 80% of the season passes sold where the college and 30's pass.  If that is accurate might be hard to ignore.


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## SnowRock (Mar 27, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> I know someone in the marketing Dept who told me that over 80% of the season passes sold where the college and 30's pass.  If that is accurate might be hard to ignore.



Yes.. while I didn't ask about the college pass, I heard from someone who would know that the 30s pass sold extremely well. They felt like they gained quite a few customers from Bush with that product.


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## cdskier (Mar 27, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> Yes.. while I didn't ask about the college pass, I heard from someone who would know that the 30s pass sold extremely well. They felt like they gained quite a few customers from Bush with that product.



"Gained" is an interesting term... Sugarbush passes were on sale way before Stowe passes came out. Most people in that 30-34 age range that wanted a Sugarbush pass should have already bought one by that point in theory in order to get the best SB prices. And then after Stowe announced theirs, SB countered pretty quickly with the early 30s pass and gave a refund of the difference to all the people in that age range that had already bought adult SB passes. I could certainly see some of those people taking the money there were refunded from SB and using that to buy the Stowe pass in addition to the SB pass (so essentially now having both an SB Early 30s pass and a Stowe Young Adult pass nearly for the same price they originally paid for the Adult SB pass).

Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt that the Young Adult pass sold well for Stowe. I just don't think it came at the expense of SB losing sales. It mostly either came from people who didn't have an SB pass at all or people who decided to get both.


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## dlague (Mar 27, 2017)

hovercraft said:


> Don't know what to say as she assured me you could change products.  Since I am a season pass holder with no restrictions I doubt that they would have another product that would fit me better .  I was asking out of curiosity anyway.  You only put down 49.00 anyway until September so I am not sure why they wouldn't let you change a product if they came out after the fact with one that worked better for their customer.  I guess we will see.


Well I put money down on the Epic Pass and then tried to change to the Keystone/A Basin pass and they would not let me change.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## hovercraft (Mar 27, 2017)

dlague said:


> Well I put money down on the Epic Pass and then tried to change to the Keystone/A Basin pass and they would not let me change.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


That's a bummer.


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## EPB (Mar 27, 2017)

dlague said:


> Is Vail really interested in the Vermont College crowd?



My guess is yes...

But only the ones with parents who are going to take them out west to a Vail resort for a week anyway. They'd probably prefer local college kids ski somewhere else when they're on their own.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2017)

So here are this season's passes:  https://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/season-pass/

I did get the "County" deal confused with the Young Adult pass.  That was a good price.  Their college pass price also dropped compared to when I was in the market.  

And 80% of their pass sales (in terms of #'s I assume) were these discounted passes?  I hope that is not the case.  That is a lot of discounted product.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 28, 2017)

I might buy the large share of discount pass deal.  I spoke to a lot of college kids every time I have visited Stowe.


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## machski (Mar 28, 2017)

eastern powder baby said:


> My guess is yes...
> 
> But only the ones with parents who are going to take them out west to a Vail resort for a week anyway. They'd probably prefer local college kids ski somewhere else when they're on their own.


I agree with yes but full on.  After all, the college graduate is the most likely to become a life long skier with the income to support it.  I think we are being too narrow minded to think Vail won't try some different products pass-wise in the East.  It is a bit of a different market. Even if just for this season to try and hook people onto them.

As for the local pass, isn't that more for Breckenridge/Keystone type skier?  So why would they put Stowe on that then unlimited?  Cool they allow Stowe, perhaps some may venture there if they are buying this pass to travel west specifically to the unrestricted areas and save some $ off a full epic.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## mbedle (Mar 28, 2017)

Based on last years prices, the good thing is the epic pass price will stay the same till about the end of may. Only thing lost with missing the first deadline was a reduction in the number of buddy passes from 6 to 2.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 28, 2017)

http://www.wcax.com/story/35007884/the-vail-effect


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## ExtremeRyan (Mar 30, 2017)

Anyone ski Rock Garden recently, I'm going up to Stowe tonight and I want to hike up there this weekend , I want to know if it's good before I go up to the ridge.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2017)

ExtremeRyan said:


> Anyone ski Rock Garden recently, I'm going up to Stowe tonight and I want to hike up there this weekend , I want to know if it's good before I go up to the ridge.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I think you need to go to Kitchen Wall and look for a lost pair of skis.


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## from_the_NEK (Apr 1, 2017)

Just saw this announcement. 
Vail Buys 17 Resorts 

http://vtskiandride.com/vail-buys-vermont/



Sent from my HTC6545LVW using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Apr 1, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> Just saw this announcement.
> Vail Buys 17 Resorts
> 
> http://vtskiandride.com/vail-buys-vermont/
> ...



Hahahaha


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## chuckstah (Jun 7, 2017)

Stowe purchase is official.  Now on the Epic pass $859 unrestricted.  Gonna be a shitshow.

http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/stowe-acquisition-closing.htm


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## dlague (Jun 7, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> Stowe purchase is official.  Now on the Epic pass $859 unrestricted.  Gonna be a shitshow.
> 
> http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/stowe-acquisition-closing.htm


Stowe has not aeen a season pass this cheap in a long long time!

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ironhippy (Jun 8, 2017)

it's going to be really interesting (or scary) to see how long the vail model works.

At what point do the crowds take away from the general public's enjoyment? 
Sure it's cheap, but if you spend half your time standing in line, is it worth it?


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> it's going to be really interesting (or scary) to see how long the vail model works.
> 
> At what point do the crowds take away from the general public's enjoyment?
> Sure it's cheap, but if you spend half your time standing in line, is it worth it?



The bulk of the customers at ski areas (weekend/holiday crowds) seem to have unlimited tolerance for packed lodges and long lift lines. If it's cheap, they will come.


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## Hawk (Jun 8, 2017)

What do you think the day pass ticket prices will end up being midweek and weekend?  That will be the real determination of the level of Sh*t show.


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2017)

Hawk said:


> What do you think the day pass ticket prices will end up being midweek and weekend?  That will be the real determination of the level of Sh*t show.



Vail sells cheap season passes and expensive day tix. You can count on those day prices only rising.


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## dlague (Jun 8, 2017)

Hawk said:


> What do you think the day pass ticket prices will end up being midweek and weekend?  That will be the real determination of the level of Sh*t show.



They use high daily ticket rates as a deterrent to focus on pass holders - they want people to buy the season pass.  Effectively about 7 days at Stowe is equal to a season pass. 

I wonder how this will impact the Ski Club awareness days for Stowe.


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## Cornhead (Jun 8, 2017)

dlague said:


> I wonder how this will impact the Ski Club awareness days for Stowe.


Me too, probably a thing of the past, bummer.




Sent from my Moto G (4) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2017)

Edd said:


> Vail sells cheap season passes and expensive day tix. You can count on those day prices only rising.



Exactly.


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## Jully (Jun 8, 2017)

dlague said:


> They use high daily ticket rates as a deterrent to focus on pass holders - they want people to buy the season pass.  Effectively about 7 days at Stowe is equal to a season pass.
> 
> I wonder how this will impact the Ski Club awareness days for Stowe.



Do other Vail resorts have ski club days? Doesn't it take like 4 days to break 'even' at Vail with the Epic pass?


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## mbedle (Jun 8, 2017)

How fast do you think they can get a quad installed at Toll House and put in a new parking lot across the street??? Will be interesting to see what the Stowe only passes will look like. If they follow the WB model, they will offer a more expensive Stowe only pass, but have the resort discounts. Also wondering if the 30 something pass will still be around.


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## Jully (Jun 8, 2017)

mbedle said:


> How fast do you think they can get a quad installed at Toll House and put in a new parking lot across the street??? Will be interesting to see what the Stowe only passes will look like. If they follow the WB model, they will offer a more expensive Stowe only pass, but have the resort discounts. Also wondering if the 30 something pass will still be around.



I would say definitely no 30 something pass. What is the point in having a more expensive resort only pass?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> I would say definitely no 30 something pass. What is the point in having a more expensive resort only pass?



Right.  They generally try to streamline their season pass offerings.  At least that is what they do here.  It is Epic, Epic Local, etc.


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## mbedle (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> I would say definitely no 30 something pass. What is the point in having a more expensive resort only pass?



The resort only passes have specific discounts associated with the resort. In Stowe case, they still have the golf club house, the Stowe Mountain Club, the Performing Arts Center, the Adventure Center, the Ice Rink, the Canteen, Solstice and Hourglass restaurants  and the multiple businesses in Spruce Peak.

As far as the 30 something, I doubt that will be available. Which might help a little with the problems we saw this past winter. That also might be some good news for Sugarbush.


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## dlague (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> Do other Vail resorts have ski club days? Doesn't it take like 4 days to break 'even' at Vail with the Epic pass?



4 days with Epic Local and just over 5 days with Epic.  I used Stowe's pricing and compared to Epic Pass.



mbedle said:


> How fast do you think they can get a quad installed at Toll House and put in a new parking lot across the street??? Will be interesting to see what the Stowe only passes will look like. If they follow the WB model, they will offer a more expensive Stowe only pass, but have the resort discounts. Also wondering if the 30 something pass will still be around.



Not many Vail resorts have a resort specific only season pass.  The few exceptions are Keystone/Abasin pass (way cheaper) then the Breck/Keystone/A Basin pass(slightly cheaper), Whistler (slightly more but for a teen slightly less), Tahoe resorts fall in line with Tahoe Local.  All others appear to fall in line.  It is possible that with Stowe being an island on its own they might do a Stowe only pass.  My guess they encourage Epic pass instead.


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## mbedle (Jun 8, 2017)

dlague said:


> 4 days with Epic Local and just over 5 days with Epic.  I used Stowe's pricing and compared to Epic Pass.
> 
> 
> 
> Not many Vail resorts have a resort specific only season pass.  The few exceptions are Keystone/Abasin pass (way cheaper) then the Breck/Keystone/A Basin pass(slightly cheaper), Whistler (slightly more but for a teen slightly less), Tahoe resorts fall in line with Tahoe Local.  All others appear to fall in line.  It is possible that with Stowe being an island on its own they might do a Stowe only pass.  My guess they encourage Epic pass instead.



Stowe is doing a Stowe only pass, which they will announce prior to the season. So, yes they are pushing the epic pass first.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 8, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> *it's going to be really interesting (or scary) to see how long the vail model works.*
> 
> At what point do the crowds take away from the general public's enjoyment? Sure it's cheap, but if you spend half your time standing in line, is it worth it?



I used to get paid to predict businesses future, so here's my guess where Vail goes from here, and while things look great right now, I do have some early concerns.

This EPIC pass effort has been very successful and it still has legs, so the stock price will keep going up for a bit, but I feel they're close to approaching the top of the bell curve on their potential success with this strategy.  

So.....

    They're a publicly traded company, not growing profits is not acceptable.   As they struggle to grow revenue they will continue to buy mountains, as bolt-on revenue is the easiest way to continue to grow, plus......without getting too deep in the weeds....you can do a lot of accounting maneuvers to mask growth decline or growth stasis through acquisitions. Also, look for more "international" mountains being purchased, and you'll hear Vail say this is both to grow the business and seek to add additional markets for growth.  To the novice, at this point it will look like Vail is taking over the world, but *WARNING*, at about this time Vail's acquisitions will begin to decrease in quality for two key reasons.  1) You've already picked off the low-hanging, most advantageous acquisition fruit 2) Acquisition cost increases through lower supply as well as the fact sellers know your MO and know you're now a "motivated" buyer.  Big difference heading into a sale from a position of strength versus a position of weakness.  

As it becomes increasingly difficult for Vail to grow revenue, they will now look to cut expenses.  First, they'll look to cut the non customer-facing expenses so as to be relatively unnoticeable.  There'll probably be a renewed emphasis on efficiency, competitive-bidding etc..  The next thing will be the labor cuts, and you'll no longer be able to swing a dead cat and hit a Vail employee.  Seriously.... it's crazy how many employees these Vail properties have.  Every 10 feet you see someone with a Vail coat.  That labor-excess will end, and probably swiftly.  But cutting expenses too much becomes a "nose spiting" exercise since Vail focuses so heavily on the high-end market and here too, they'll quickly reach the point of diminishing returns.   Oh..... also.....the CEO is young and smart, so before things get too bad and when Vail's still relatively on-top, he'll probably resign to "seek new opportunities" and "seek new challenges".  Essentially, Vail is so awesome and I've done such an amazing job, that I just cant help it become any better, but that will be an excuse for him to leave while still on top and get a new, high-paid, CEO gig elsewhere, and possibly in an entirely different industry.

The stock then starts to drop once the flaws and lack of growth can no longer be masked & hidden.  The Vail business model will begin to be publicly questioned.   Vail is just TOO large!  Divestitures will begin to occur to raise cash, pay debt, strengthen the balance sheet, and make activist Wall Street investors happy.   The initial mountains sold will be called "non-core" assets.    And the world turns........

I give this all.......say....... roughly 10 years.


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## Smellytele (Jun 8, 2017)

Edd said:


> The bulk of the customers at ski areas (weekend/holiday crowds) seem to have unlimited tolerance for packed lodges and long lift lines. If it's cheap, they will come.



Cheap is a relative term when speaking over 800. Is it cheaper than it was? Yes. Is it cheap? No


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## Jully (Jun 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I used to get paid to predict businesses future, so here's my guess where Vail goes from here, and while things look great right now, I do have some early concerns.
> 
> This EPIC pass effort has been very successful and it still has legs, so the stock price will keep going up for a bit, but I feel they're close to approaching the top of the bell curve on their potential success with this strategy.
> 
> ...



That is the challenge of all publicly traded ski companies isn't it? Profits are harder and harder to grow as you get bigger and bigger. I'm not sure how stable any publicly traded ski company ever is.


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## tumbler (Jun 8, 2017)

To add to BG- a business model that is relies entirely on something out of their control- the weather.


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## benski (Jun 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> That is the challenge of all publicly traded ski companies isn't it? Profits are harder and harder to grow as you get bigger and bigger. I'm not sure how stable any publicly traded ski company ever is.



Not only that i feel like the ski industry has been maturing in such a way that ski areas are fighting harder for skiers as opposed to making it more lucrative. If you want to keep growing ski areas need to switch strategy toward beginners, not no terrain and lifts. Maybe vail does that with midwest ski area. If Vail wants to grow, buy Tuxido Ridge and Target it at beginners.


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## dlague (Jun 8, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Cheap is a relative term when speaking over 800. Is it cheaper than it was? Yes. Is it cheap? No


Well putting things in perspective - cheap for Stowe - yes.  Cheap as in competitive with most competitive resports but really cheap for all the resorts that are available.

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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I used to get paid to predict businesses future, so here's my guess where Vail goes from here, and while things look great right now, I do have some early concerns.
> 
> This EPIC pass effort has been very successful and it still has legs, so the stock price will keep going up for a bit, but I feel they're close to approaching the top of the bell curve on their potential success with this strategy.
> 
> ...




Have to agree.


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## Domeskier (Jun 9, 2017)

Vail is missing a yuuuge potential market by not expanding into the dome skiing business.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 9, 2017)

Jully said:


> *That is the challenge of all publicly traded ski companies isn't it?*



It's a challenge for any company in any industry, but the risks I pointed out I think are fairly unique to MTN because of their business model.  It's seems like a great idea now (and it has been), but eventually the concept will stagnate and become a bit of an anchor. The golden goose Vail has chosen to settle upon as their raison d'être is a finite resource.  There's only so many people you can aggressively herd onto EPIC.  My guess is you'll eventually see Vail furiously adding new ancillary avenues of revenue, and that will probably be hint #1 that EPIC growth is declining (or stagnating/falling).


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## Domeskier (Jun 9, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> My guess is you'll eventually see Vail furiously adding new ancillary avenues of revenue, and that will probably be hint #1 that EPIC growth is declining (or stagnating/falling).



I'm looking forward to drinking some Vail branded glacier water bottled on site by participants in their Blackcomb summer ski camps.


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## benski (Jun 9, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> I'm looking forward to drinking some Vail branded glacier water bottled on site by participants in their Blackcomb summer ski camps.



Not happening this year. Not enough snow. Global warming. Strikes again.


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## chuckstah (Jun 9, 2017)

benski said:


> Not happening this year. Not enough snow. Global warming. Strikes again.


What's not happening?  Summer skiing certainly is. Starts tomorrow. 

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## benski (Jun 9, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> What's not happening?  Summer skiing certainly is. Starts tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app



the Whistler summer ski camp.


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## chuckstah (Jun 9, 2017)

benski said:


> the Whistler summer ski camp.


There are many camps, and public skiing not cancelled. Plenty of snow. Start tomorrow June 10 

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## Gnarcissaro (Jun 9, 2017)

Camp of Champions is a no go. Not "plenty of snow." Gotta feel for the guy, sounds like he loved the camp.

https://www.campofchampions.com


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## chuckstah (Jun 9, 2017)

Plenty of camps open. Sucks 2 were cancelled. If you want to ski you can. We all know glaciers are melting. 
https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/groups/school-and-youth-groups/summer-glacier-camps

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## mbedle (Jun 11, 2017)

So, final price for Stowe was 41 million. Can anyone explain what could make up 3.5 million dollar lost at Stowe from June 7th till July 31st (end of Vail's fiscal year. This was taken out of their latest reporting:

approximately $2.2 million of Stowe transaction and integration expenses, and $3.5 million of expected Stowe operating losses related to the period between closing and the end of the fiscal year.


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## machski (Jun 11, 2017)

Possibly the lack of early season pass sales since Stowe didn't have any this year?

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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2017)

machski said:


> Possibly the lack of early season pass sales since Stowe didn't have any this year?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Stowe never sold passes early IIRC


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> So, final price for Stowe was 41 million. Can anyone explain what could make up 3.5 million dollar lost at Stowe from June 7th till July 31st (end of Vail's fiscal year. This was taken out of their latest reporting:
> 
> approximately $2.2 million of Stowe transaction and integration expenses, and $3.5 million of expected Stowe operating losses related to the period between closing and the end of the fiscal year.



If I had to guess, payroll, maintenance, summer ops, etc.


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## ironhippy (Jun 12, 2017)

chuckstah said:


> Plenty of camps open. Sucks 2 were cancelled. If you want to ski you can. We all know glaciers are melting.
> https://www.whistlerblackcomb.com/groups/school-and-youth-groups/summer-glacier-camps
> 
> Sent from my LGMS345 using AlpineZone mobile app



From what I read, it sounded like there wasn't enough snow to create a terrain park, which is why the camp of champions was cancelled.
Sounds like there's enough snow to ski, but not enough to make huge jumps, etc.


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## drjeff (Jun 12, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> From what I read, it sounded like there wasn't enough snow to create a terrain park, which is why the camp of champions was cancelled.
> Sounds like there's enough snow to ski, but not enough to make huge jumps, etc.


Also wonder how much the annual moving of large quantities of the glacial snowpack to build the features has to do with some loss of snow as the cats getting into the glacial snowpack in the warm months most definitely disturbs the pack to deeper depths and introduces more warm air and likely melting than if the glacier was undisturbed or at most just groomed flat for race camps and free skiing.

Kind of like why Killington did as little grooming of Superstar as possible towards the end, except when absolutely​ need to leave it undisturbed....

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## mbedle (Jun 19, 2017)

So Vail buys Stowe and all I get is a lousy new parking lot under the gondola.... WTF. Going to packing them in real tight next year, door dings for everyone... lol


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## benski (Jun 19, 2017)

mbedle said:


> So Vail buys Stowe and all I get is a lousy new parking lot under the gondola.... WTF. Going to packing them in real tight next year, door dings for everyone... lol



Thats what you get for paying half price for Stowe.


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## mbedle (Jun 19, 2017)

benski said:


> Thats what you get for paying half price for Stowe.



So true...


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## mbedle (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm going to buy a second one just so they can afford to install the quad at toll house!!!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 19, 2017)

mbedle said:


> So true...



+1

I mean they only bought Whistler-Blackcomb AND Stowe last year!


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## mbedle (Jun 20, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> +1
> 
> I mean they only bought Whistler-Blackcomb AND Stowe last year!



Whats really sad is they buy a 200 foot hill in WI and invest 13 million in the first year. Buy Stowe... hey, lets just put in 149 parking spaces, for a grand total of 500K.... lol.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Whats really sad is they buy a 200 foot hill in WI and invest 13 million in the first year. Buy Stowe... hey, lets just put in 149 parking spaces, for a grand total of 500K.... lol.



True, but what needs to be upgraded?  And $13 mill at a 200 foot hill goes a lot further than at Stowe.


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## benski (Jun 20, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Whats really sad is they buy a 200 foot hill in WI and invest 13 million in the first year. Buy Stowe... hey, lets just put in 149 parking spaces, for a grand total of 500K.... lol.



I think that place was a little run down. In the pictures everything looked old.


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## drjeff (Jun 20, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Whats really sad is they buy a 200 foot hill in WI and invest 13 million in the first year. Buy Stowe... hey, lets just put in 149 parking spaces, for a grand total of 500K.... lol.



And I'm sure with the typical pace of the Act 250 environmental permitting process (scam) in VT, you'll see some sizable capital expenditures by Vail resorts at Stowe sometime about 2023....  Until them, you get spaces to park more people to help track the place out even quicker ;-)


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## mbedle (Jun 20, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> True, but what needs to be upgraded?  And $13 mill at a 200 foot hill goes a lot further than at Stowe.



Expanded parking at Toll House and a quad to get them up to the main mountain. Would also be nice if they replaced the double to remove some stress off of the quad. At the 3 smaller hills in the midwest, they spent around 34 million right after they acquired them. One can dream that they would spend a little more than 500K at Stowe.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Expanded parking at Toll House and a quad to get them up to the main mountain. Would also be nice if they replaced the double to remove some stress off of the quad. At the 3 smaller hills in the midwest, they spent around 34 million right after they acquired them. One can dream that they would spend a little more than 500K at Stowe.



Patience young grasshopper.  

Seriously though I do imagine that they have plans for that, but figure that everything else is brand new and ready to go.  Also, as said, they have to go through permitting unless that was already approved.


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## Jully (Jun 20, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Patience young grasshopper.
> 
> Seriously though I do imagine that they have plans for that, but figure that everything else is brand new and ready to go.  Also, as said, they have to go through permitting unless that was already approved.



Agreed. I doubt Vail is content to spend just 500k total at Stowe. It will all come with time. Permitting in VT is almost definitely nothing like permitting in the midwest.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 20, 2017)

Jully said:


> Agreed. I doubt Vail is content to spend just 500k total at Stowe. It will all come with time. Permitting in VT is almost definitely nothing like permitting in the midwest.



It will be very interesting to see what happens this season at Stowe.  Will it be overcrowded?  Will those longtimers get turned off and leave?  If so, where do they go?  Or will it be the same as it was albeit at a cheaper pricepoint?

I think that Park City is not a good comparison.  That area has a lot of capacity and never really was considered a "top of the list" resort pricewise or experiencewise.  Deer Valley, on the other hand, is both.  That said, locals have really complained about the crowds the last two seasons at Park City.  Not so much on the Canyons side.  Parking is a nightmare.  Show up at 10 and you are parking across town at the high school and riding a shuttle.  Even then it is not an apples-to-apples comparison because PC has a much larger daytrip market than Stowe.

So while Stowe will no doubt pick up a few more locals due to the pass deal, it will not be nearly as many as Park City.  That probably equates to more weekday skiers and riders and still busy, but not overly crazy, weekends.


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## dlague (Jun 20, 2017)

Jully said:


> Agreed. I doubt Vail is content to spend just 500k total at Stowe. It will all come with time. Permitting in VT is almost definitely nothing like permitting in the midwest.



This will be their inaugural season so operationally they will get things figured out.  By this time next year, I bet larger plans will be shaping up.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 20, 2017)

I'd imagine a Toll House HSQ with more parking happens.  An upgrade of the Triple to a HSQ probably happens at some point as well.   As the Mansfield Base Lodge is untouchable, that leaves expansion of the Midway lodge the most likely scenario to improve lunch options.   And $150 day tickets to go along with all of that.  Running 5 HSQs, 2 Gondolas and 5 lodges takes a ton of labor to do.


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## cdskier (Jun 20, 2017)

Was the plan for ~140 additional parking spaces even approved yet? I saw an article that the proposal was tabled until the July Stowe Development Review Board meeting. The main argument from the township seems to be that Stowe isn't doing enough to add enough parking...


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## p_levert (Jun 20, 2017)

I don't think anything is happening quickly:

http://www.stowetoday.com/stowe_rep...cle_4bdd5fae-51e3-11e7-8634-a72909ff6955.html


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 22, 2017)

I'm surprised they claim there were only 250 parking spots at Spruce.  

I'm not sure how they arrive at that, but it seems to me it had to be much more than that.  That parking lot was massive.  I parked right up front because I had to be there really early, but it went WAY back where the buses used to linger.   Had to be more than 250 spots.


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## snoseek (Jun 22, 2017)

Its been over five years since the Kirkwood became part of the Vail family and on the surface nothing has really changed on mountain. Heavenly has been patiently waiting for some lift upgrades as well. I'm not convinced there will be a whole lot of spending anytime soon at Stowe


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## RISkier (Jun 24, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd imagine a Toll House HSQ with more parking happens.  An upgrade of the Triple to a HSQ probably happens at some point as well.   As the Mansfield Base Lodge is untouchable, that leaves expansion of the Midway lodge the most likely scenario to improve lunch options.   And $150 day tickets to go along with all of that.  Running 5 HSQs, 2 Gondolas and 5 lodges takes a ton of labor to do.



No idea what Vail will do. The Toll House area is seriously ignored. Beautiful beginner terrain with what has to be in the discussion for slowest lift in the world. Beginner's don't really know about it and mostly can't get to it without riding the quad or the triple. Real Stow skiers would never deign to go over there. But lovely beginner terrain. If it's not too cold (the lift ride can truly be miserable) we'll often do a run or two over there, especially later in the afternoon when we're tired. And it is nearly unskied. No one parks there. The hotel is no longer operating. You can't really get back to any of the main parking lots easily. Could be a wonderful area to send the beginners from Spruce over to the other side of the road.


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## benski (Jun 24, 2017)

RISkier said:


> The Toll House area is seriously ignored. Beautiful beginner terrain with what has to be in the discussion for slowest lift in the world. Beginner's don't really know about it and mostly can't get to it without riding the quad or the triple.



Such skiers that don't know about Toll house can probably be flocked like sheep to wherever the resort suggests them too. If Vail charges for parking or replaces then lift the more experienced will also go down there.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 25, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm surprised they claim there were only 250 parking spots at Spruce.
> 
> I'm not sure how they arrive at that, but it seems to me it had to be much more than that.  That parking lot was massive.  I parked right up front because I had to be there really early, but it went WAY back where the buses used to linger.   Had to be more than 250 spots.


There was also at least 100 spots by the old Big Spruce double.  The only people who really used them were ski club members.  I used to park there all the time though.  Start my day with a Big Spruce Birthday Bowls loop

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## from_the_NEK (Jun 26, 2017)

This configuration, before construction of the Adventure Center, had roughly 318 marked spot.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 26, 2017)

A far as creating parking at the Toll House area. I just don't see where they can put it. There looks to be an area on the other side of the Mountain Road, but I really find that whole area to be rather unfavorable for any kind of parking development.


On the other hand, adding a parking deck to the main lot that looks something like this could add an additional 300 spots.


Or an alternative would be this area (roughly 225 spaces), but it would require shuttles to the Mansfield Base lodge.


The argument for a parking deck over an existing lot is that it does not increase the area of impervious surfaces. In the case of the alternate site above, the deck would actually help reduce erosion to the gravel surface of the satellite lot. The water entering the retention pools on the lower side of the garage would be much clearer.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2017)

I believe the last area is where the mountain is currently proposing to add 140 spaces. I'd imagine most people using that lot would opt for the Midway lodge over the Mansfield one. 

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## BenedictGomez (Jun 26, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> This configuration, before construction of the Adventure Center, had roughly 318 marked spot.
> 
> View attachment 22661



Aha!  Good sleuthing.   

And before that photo, when there was far less built over there, it had even way more parking spots than that.  IIRC, it was a giant gravel parking lot back in the late 90s to early 00s.  I dont believe there was any markings if memory serves me, you just parked next to folks and made your spots, similar to Smuggler's notch parking up at Sterling.


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## Jully (Jun 26, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Aha!  Good sleuthing.
> 
> And before that photo, when there was far less built over there, it had even way more parking spots than that.  IIRC, it was a giant gravel parking lot back in the late 90s to early 00s.  I dont believe there was any markings if memory serves me, you just parked next to folks and made your spots, similar to Smuggler's notch parking up at Sterling.



Its amazing how much more parking can happen (Assuming there is some staff to prevent people from parking in a wildly inefficient manner) when there are NOT marked spots.


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## benski (Jun 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> Its amazing how much more parking can happen (Assuming there is some staff to prevent people from parking in a wildly inefficient manner) when there are NOT marked spots.



Yes but I think having people park the cars creates a bottleneck at some ski areas. I think Mt. Ellen has the right idea with a road heading up the middle of the parking lot with clearly defined rows but no defined spots, so all you have to do is park at the end of the row, well except its so steep.


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## mbedle (Jun 27, 2017)

The proposed parking is actual under the gondola, between the lift base and the midway lodge. I don't think you will ever see a parking deck near the Mansfield base lodge, especially since they do not own that land. I don't think it would pass the visually appealing test for Act 250. As far as toll house goes, I am not sure if Vail got any of the land at the base. They recently just subdivided the 1795 acres that Stowe owned, creating 5 parcels at the Toll House area (overflow parking for employee's lot, the Bingham Cottage property, the president's house, the Toll House base area and the rest (1,753 acres), most likely, going to Vail. Stowe keep the base area for planned residential development near the bottom of the lift. Vail might have gotten the Bingham Cottage and overflow employee parking lot. Also the Toll House Lodge and condos did not go to Vail (it was already its own separate parcel and is currently an HOA). They also removed the limitations on the number of cars they can park in the current lots (was 4,040). Apparently the regulations changed since the original permit was issues, removing the emissions limitations per acres of parking. So, I'd expect that on the weekends, the staff is going to be a little more diligent in getting people to park a little closer. With more bussing, they could definitely expand the parking down at the cross country center. One thing to keep in mind is last year, during the busiest weekends, they exceeded the comfortable carrying capacity of the resort. I think I heard the CCC was 7,500 skiers and on one weekend they hit 9,200. If they keep the college and 30 something pass this year, you can bet they will exceed the CCC on more weekends. If they get rid of those passes, things might stay similar to what we saw this past season.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2017)

benski said:


> Yes but I think having people park the cars creates a bottleneck at some ski areas. I think Mt. Ellen has the right idea with a road heading up the middle of the parking lot with clearly defined rows but no defined spots, so all you have to do is park at the end of the row, well except its so steep.



I think this is the first post on AZ where someone praises the Mount Ellen Parking Lot.  :lol:  Most gripe about the climb.  Of course I just got there early on a regular basis and scored great parking up top.


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## ExtremeRyan (Jun 27, 2017)

I've heard rumors that they might build a connector gondola from Spruce Peak to Smuggs. But these are just rumors, some idiot online could have made the whole thing up. However, it is entirely possible for them to do so, there is already a trail from Spruce to Sterling so they wouldn't need to do much work on the Liftline. 


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 27, 2017)

mbedle said:


> *emissions limitations per acres of parking.*



I cant believe that's actually a thing.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 27, 2017)

ExtremeRyan said:


> I've heard rumors that they might build a connector gondola from Spruce Peak to Smuggs. But these are just rumors, some idiot online could have made the whole thing up. However, it is entirely possible for them to do so, there is already a trail from Spruce to Sterling so they wouldn't need to do much work on the Liftline.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



yeah, that sounds made up

The trail in between Spruce and Smuggs is the Long Trail and is only 10 feet wide and isn't entirely straight.  They'd actually need to do significant work to accommodate a lift.  There's no way I'd ever see the state allowing this.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 27, 2017)

I really hope Vail runs into debt/equity problems before they're able to acquire Smuggler's Notch.


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## benski (Jun 27, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I cant believe that's actually a thing.



Some construction company must have good lobbyists. Environmentalists would never support paving and clearing more land the necessary.


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## djspookman (Jun 29, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> yeah, that sounds made up
> 
> The trail in between Spruce and Smuggs is the Long Trail and is only 10 feet wide and isn't entirely straight.  They'd actually need to do significant work to accommodate a lift.  There's no way I'd ever see the state allowing this.
> 
> View attachment 22665



Trail from Smuggs side to Stowe (spruce peak) was called Snuffy's to Stowe. Went across the pond, due south off the top of Sterling to the little depression shown in your map.  The LT is what you take from the OLD top of spruce down to Sterling. Now way the state or Smuggs would even consider a gondi.. total interwebz farce !


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 29, 2017)

How about a tunnel/magic carpet like Snowbird did?   They could have 1 going in each direction.  

Then they could install a bubble 6pack on Smuggs.  :evil:


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## benski (Jun 29, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> How about a tunnel/magic carpet like Snowbird did?   They could have 1 going in each direction.
> 
> Then they could install a bubble 6pack on Smuggs.  :evil:



Smuggs once wanted to install a six pack. I know they made even synced an environmental consultant.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 3, 2017)

The last skier of the year at Stowe.  

https://www.tetongravity.com/photo/snowboard/last-call-at-stowe.-7-1-2017


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## cdskier (Jul 3, 2017)

I'm actually surprised that snow lasted this long, even if it was only a small pile.


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## Not Sure (Jul 3, 2017)

Killington still has a lot of snow .............And it's even daytime all the time:smile::smile::smile:
http://killington.roundshot.com/peaklodge/


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## cdskier (Jul 3, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Killington still has a lot of snow .............And it's even daytime all the time:smile::smile::smile:
> http://killington.roundshot.com/peaklodge/



I looked at that maybe a month or so ago and was surprised to see the images hadn't been updated in a while. I wonder why they don't keep that cam going year-round.


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## Not Sure (Jul 3, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I looked at that maybe a month or so ago and was surprised to see the images hadn't been updated in a while. I wonder why they don't keep that cam going year-round.



Yea ,kind of dissapointing, I looked forward to eating breakfast watching the sunrises .


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jul 4, 2017)

NONE of the cams(listed on their website)  seem to be working today.


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## mbedle (Jul 11, 2017)

Just saw that Stowe is also going to expand the parking at the cross country center. Guessing they will be busing people up to the resort on Saturdays.


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## Jully (Jul 11, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Just saw that Stowe is also going to expand the parking at the cross country center. Guessing they will be busing people up to the resort on Saturdays.



Its going to be an interesting year for sure!


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I looked at that maybe a month or so ago and was surprised to see the images hadn't been updated in a while. *I wonder why they don't keep that cam going year-round.*



Marketing?


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## dlague (Jul 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I looked at that maybe a month or so ago and was surprised to see the images hadn't been updated in a while. I wonder why they don't keep that cam going year-round.



They want people to think they have skiing in July!


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## cdskier (Jul 12, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Marketing?





dlague said:


> They want people to think they have skiing in July!



Hah...if it was up to me, I'd want to be showcasing how green and beautiful the mountains look in the summer to encourage people to come up and visit this time of year! The April 30th brown trees, ground, and melting dirty snow images aren't overly appealing.


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## dlague (Jul 12, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Hah...if it was up to me, I'd want to be showcasing how green and beautiful the mountains look in the summer to encourage people to come up and visit this time of year! The April 30th brown trees, ground, and melting dirty snow images aren't overly appealing.



all kidding aside, it is odd that they do not have them running.


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## cdskier (Jul 12, 2017)

dlague said:


> all kidding aside, it is odd that they do not have them running.



Agreed.

When it first went offline I thought maybe they were just doing some maintenance or had power shut off to the summit or something like that. But the Peak lodge is open now as is the Gondola...so those ideas don't seem likely anymore.


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## mbedle (Aug 10, 2017)

Stowe appears to only be offering this season a Stowe only college pass for $399. That at least is some good news as far as crowds next year. I got to believe that a lot of 20 somethings will pick the Sugarbush 20's something pass for $399 over the epic $859 and most 30 somethings will go with Sugarbush's 30 something pass for $599. We shall see.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 13, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Stowe appears to only be offering this season a Stowe only college pass for $399. That at least is some good news as far as crowds next year. I got to believe that a lot of 20 somethings will pick the Sugarbush 20's something pass for $399 over the epic $859 and most 30 somethings will go with Sugarbush's 30 something pass for $599. We shall see.



If cost is the only factor, sure.


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## Cornhead (Aug 14, 2017)

https://www.stowe.com/groups/council/ They're keeping Ski Council Days thankfully, at least for the upcoming season, $48 per day.

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## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2017)

Cornhead said:


> https://www.stowe.com/groups/council/ They're keeping Ski Council Days thankfully, at least for the upcoming season, $48 per day.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using AlpineZone mobile app



Very cool.  I am interested to hear how crowded it gets this season.


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## dlague (Sep 11, 2017)

I was on the Epic Pass Products site which is newly redesigned and any one see something glaringly missing?

http://epic.snow.com/mountain-exploration/

Stowe is only mentioned on the Buy Your Season Pass link.


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## dlague (Sep 11, 2017)

I was on the Epic Pass Products site which is newly redesigned and any one see something glaringly missing?

http://epic.snow.com/mountain-exploration/

Stowe is only mentioned on the Buy Your Season Pass link.

Almost like they are saying - you are part of the family but you are the red headed step child.


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## cdskier (Sep 11, 2017)

dlague said:


> I was on the Epic Pass Products site which is newly redesigned and any one see something glaringly missing?
> 
> http://epic.snow.com/mountain-exploration/
> 
> Stowe is only mentioned on the Buy Your Season Pass link.



Maybe the web design guy has been living under a rock the past 8 months or so?


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## Edd (Sep 11, 2017)

I know it's Vail's call but it just sounds so much like Stowe to not play ball with the rest of the kids. Their tag line should be "Go fuck yourself".


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## benski (Sep 12, 2017)

They also left off Kirk wood and the Australian place and Midwest places on the first page.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 12, 2017)

Cornhead said:


> *They're keeping Ski Council Days thankfully, a**t least for the upcoming season*, $48 per day.



Gone within 3 years is my prediction.    

My gut tells me it would have been gone this year, if not for the fact that Vail is a politically savvy company.  Heat the frog's h2o slowly.


----------



## dlague (Sep 12, 2017)

benski said:


> They also left off Kirk wood and the Australian place and Midwest places on the first page.



Revisiting the link I posted, It became very clear where Vail Resorts wants people to go (target destinations) and the resorts not listed are not the target destinations.  Those unlisted resorts were purchased to increase traffic to those places that are prominently listed.


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## mbedle (Sep 12, 2017)

I was thinking about this and wondering how they are going to promote Spruce Peak on the Vail sites. I got to believe that the sale agreement has some conditions about how Vail would promote Stowe (spruce peak) as a destination resort, during all seasons. I've got to believe that both websites ( Vail's and Stowe's) will ultimately be updated to reflect everything that Spruce Peak has, combined with the actual ski area. One other thing is the epic.snow.com is not truly their home page for either the resorts or the epic pass information. It appears to have been last updated in 2016. The true pages are snow.com and epicpass.com, with the company home page being vailresorts.com.


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## dlague (Sep 12, 2017)

mbedle said:


> I was thinking about this and wondering how they are going to promote Spruce Peak on the Vail sites. I got to believe that the sale agreement has some conditions about how Vail would promote Stowe (spruce peak) as a destination resort, during all seasons. I've got to believe that both websites ( Vail's and Stowe's) will ultimately be updated to reflect everything that Spruce Peak has, combined with the actual ski area. One other thing is the epic.snow.com is not truly their home page for either the resorts or the epic pass information. It appears to have been last updated in 2016. The true pages are snow.com and epicpass.com, with the company home page being vailresorts.com.



OK go to snow.com and click on "Our Resorts" or better yet "Plan a Vacation" or "Our Sites"  Stowe and all of the Midwest ski areas are absent - Midwest certainly are not destination resorts and Vail does not own any or maybe a little lodging in VT why promote it?

Go to vailresorts.com and the little ticker that shows "Our Resorts" has no mention of Stowe either.

My guess it is because none of the marketing has caught up to the transaction?


----------



## benski (Sep 12, 2017)

They need to get there shit together. They seem to never mention there Perisher, which is a major resort down under, either. Whistler appears to also be missing under snow.com's plan a vacation tab.


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## slatham (Sep 12, 2017)

Maybe I give Vail too much credit but I find it hard to believe the above web site situation is an error of omission. For Stowe, with the crowd issues last year and worries of this winter, parking issues, not owning the lodging, etc, Vail does not need any additional "cross selling" for Stowe.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 13, 2017)

slatham said:


> *Maybe I give Vail too much credit but I find it hard to believe the above web site situation is an error of omission. *



Agreed.


----------



## SnowRock (Sep 13, 2017)

It may be intentional, but I have a feeling the answer is probably simpler. 

They have a bunch of web properties and the user experience is different across each - from EpicPass.Com to Snow.Com to Epic.Snow.Com, the EpicMix site as well. Stuff all seems different in terms of design, navigation and consistency of info. I am not a web guy, but do work in that world a bit and you would be surprised at how even at big companies, this sort of stuff happen over time with different teams creating different sites without a common set of standards. Buying companies (in this case resorts) adding them to your environment with band-aids etc.  

I bought a pass and they keep asking me to add a photo, but there is a photo there and they drive me to the EpicPass site, but that site doesn't even show I have a pass, yet I do have a pass on snow.com.


----------



## dlague (Sep 13, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> It may be intentional, but I have a feeling the answer is probably simpler.
> 
> They have a bunch of web properties and the user experience is different across each - from EpicPass.Com to Snow.Com to Epic.Snow.Com, the EpicMix site as well. Stuff all seems different in terms of design, navigation and consistency of info. I am not a web guy, but do work in that world a bit and you would be surprised at how even at big companies, this sort of stuff happen over time with different teams creating different sites without a common set of standards. Buying companies (in this case resorts) adding them to your environment with band-aids etc.
> 
> I bought a pass and they keep asking me to add a photo, but there is a photo there and they drive me to the EpicPass site, but that site doesn't even show I have a pass, yet I do have a pass on snow.com.



But the funny thing is - Afton Alps and Wilmot are mentioned on Snow.com as their Resorts but it ends there - Plan a Vacation is clearly oriented towards Tahoe, Utah, and Colorado and so it appears on the other sites as well.


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## SnowRock (Sep 13, 2017)

dlague said:


> But the funny thing is - Afton Alps and Wilmot are mentioned on Snow.com as their Resorts but it ends there - Plan a Vacation is clearly oriented towards Tahoe, Utah, and Colorado and so it appears on the other sites as well.



Yes but if you go to 'experiences' on EpicPass Stowe is listed, as is the midwest, as is Europe. And exactly as you note... Snow.com doesn't list Stowe at all which is odd. When I bought the pass earlier this year, it had me purchase through Snow.Com but now it looks like they updated EpicPass.com which acts as their pass eCommerce site now... but as an example my pass info doesn't seem to be detailed there, but it is when I login to snow.com. Again some of this could be completely intentional, but I wouldn't be surprised if their web architecture hasn't caught up to their buying spree.


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## mbedle (Sep 14, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> Yes but if you go to 'experiences' on EpicPass Stowe is listed, as is the midwest, as is Europe. And exactly as you note... Snow.com doesn't list Stowe at all which is odd. When I bought the pass earlier this year, it had me purchase through Snow.Com but now it looks like they updated EpicPass.com which acts as their pass eCommerce site now... but as an example my pass info doesn't seem to be detailed there, but it is when I login to snow.com. Again some of this could be completely intentional, but I wouldn't be surprised if their web architecture hasn't caught up to their buying spree.



Are you logging in to both sites with the same username and password? I just tried with mine and both show the same account information and photo for the pass.


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## dlague (Oct 4, 2017)

Winner winner chicken dinner

The towns are going to get some dough and the town of Stowe already got 100,000 with more on the way

http://vtskiandride.com/katz-58m-mountain-towns/


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## mbedle (Oct 18, 2017)

Parking lot pic: 

Stowe lift ticket rates are up, not to much of an increase (except for the early and late season bypass rates significantly increased), but they don't show any window ticket prices yet. They did switch to a peak / non peak structure instead of the regular and early/late season structure.


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## p_levert (Oct 18, 2017)

They have only announced 48 hour advanced purchase prices:

https://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/lift/

Note that Stowe Bypass is history. Overall prices are not as scary as they could be.


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## mbedle (Oct 25, 2017)

Guess I am going to eat my words about Stowe Mountain Lodge and Vail actually working together to promote the resort and SML. They basically have stripped the website or downplayed SML and the golf course, spa and a couple of restaurants are completely removed. They don't have a link to the real estate website. Very surprised the AIG would have agreed to that as part of the sale. Pretty much a guarantee that you are going to see something built at the base of Toll House in the coming years, which will be a driver for a new lift.


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 25, 2017)

They still participate in Ski Vermont passes + CT ski club days.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 25, 2017)

p_levert said:


> They have only announced 48 hour advanced purchase prices:
> 
> https://www.stowe.com/ski-ride/lift/
> 
> Note that Stowe Bypass is history. Overall prices are not as scary as they could be.



Wait....so no bypass means you have to actually purchase the lift ticket?  You can't just link your CC and show up at the lift?  that sucks.

And 48 hour advanced best rate sucks too...a lot can happen in 48 hours in VT....


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## tnt1234 (Oct 25, 2017)

And also....what the hell kind of place is that to put the parking lot???  Thats the Gondi run out!  

It's actually not as intrusive as I thought it would be....


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 25, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> Wait....so no bypass means you have to actually purchase the lift ticket?  You can't just link your CC and show up at the lift?  that sucks.
> 
> And 48 hour advanced best rate sucks too...a lot can happen in 48 hours in VT....



you can still load an evolution stowe card for straight to lift. it seems they just eliminated bypass special pricing


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 25, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> And also....what the hell kind of place is that to put the parking lot???  Thats the Gondi run out!
> 
> It's actually not as intrusive as I thought it would be....



that place actually makes a lot of sense for a parking lot. its dead space between the gondola loading barn and the midway lodge.


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## cdskier (Oct 25, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you can still load an evolution stowe card for straight to lift. it seems they just eliminated bypass special pricing



Straight to lift as long as you load something in advance onto it...

If you don't do it 48 hours in advance, I'm curious to see what the rates will be when they announce them.


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## machski (Oct 25, 2017)

cdskier said:


> Straight to lift as long as you load something in advance onto it...
> 
> If you don't do it 48 hours in advance, I'm curious to see what the rates will be when they announce them.


I think the 48 hours for best rate is beginning to become a norm in the industry, at least amongst the big resorts.  

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Oct 25, 2017)

machski said:


> I think the 48 hours for best rate is beginning to become a norm in the industry, at least amongst the big resorts.



I agree. Anything within 48 hours will be walk up window prices (or close to them). Didn't online tickets from a lot of other resorts already need to be purchased in advance as well to get discounts? Some may have been only 1 day ahead, but I don't blame resorts for only giving discounts if you purchase at least a certain amount of time in advance. If you want to wait until the last minute, you pay the full rate.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 25, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you can still load an evolution stowe card for straight to lift. it seems they just eliminated bypass special pricing



But with by pass, you didn't even need to load the card - first scan at the lift charged you lowest price possible for that day.


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## ss20 (Oct 25, 2017)

bdfreetuna said:


> They still participate in Ski Vermont passes + CT ski club days.



Nope, they pulled out of the CT club Awareness Days program.  Recently, too.  They had dates locked in that suddenly went poof...f*** Vail... 

The ski club days webpage is also gone...even though it had been updated for 2017-2018... https://www.stowe.com/groups/council/

So instead of getting $150 or whatever it was for the three day weekend in March they'll get nothing from me.


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## sugarbushskier (Oct 25, 2017)

Amen!  I'll support VT resorts, but as a member of a ski club that seems like a bad business decision, at least for the current year!


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 26, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Nope, they pulled out of the CT club Awareness Days program.  Recently, too.  They had dates locked in that suddenly went poof...f*** Vail...
> *
> The ski club days webpage is also gone...even though it had been updated for 2017-2018..*. https://www.stowe.com/groups/council/
> 
> So instead of getting $150 or whatever it was for the three day weekend in March they'll get nothing from me.



Wow.

That is* HORRENDOUS *from a PR standpoint.   Really surprised given Vail isnt........ dumb.

My prediction was (nearly) correct though.  IYR, I said that either after this season or the next season Vail would yank all those deals.  The reason I believed Vail would leave them intact for this season is that they're usually a pretty savvy company, and you dont flip over the apple cart immediately post acquisition, because that tends to make people really angry (as well as the fact everyone is watching).  So I thought they'd go with the boiling-the-frog-slowly strategy and pull those offers after a season or two.

EDIT: And I'd have to imagine this will be the last year for Stowe being on the Vermont 3 & 5 passes.


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## drjeff (Oct 26, 2017)

Makes 100% sense from the Vail business model if one is honestly looking at things.  Vail Resorts via their frankly underpriced Epic Pass is all about getting people to use their passes to take a destination trip or 2 or more to one of their resorts. They're not about the day trip model when it gets down to it.  The long weekend to week long trip, very, very often with additional purchases of Vail Resorts offerings (rentals, lessons, lodging, food and beverage, etc) is far more profitable that a day tripper, on a discount ticket, who often won't buy very much, if it all other items from them. The majority of ski club day trippers also more often than not, won't be taking an extended ski vacation to one of their other resorts,  I'm guessing that based on the number of Epic Passes Vail Resorts has sold in the general Stowe area as well as the Northeast, that they made the decision, using that data to end the ski club tickets, since they're expecting that that extra crowd volume isn't worth it to their Epic Pass guests.....


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## ss20 (Oct 26, 2017)

I'll shoot them an email inquiring about PSIA rates...that'll be fun! :lol:


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## tnt1234 (Oct 26, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Makes 100% sense from the Vail business model if one is honestly looking at things.  Vail Resorts via their frankly underpriced Epic Pass is all about getting people to use their passes to take a destination trip or 2 or more to one of their resorts. They're not about the day trip model when it gets down to it.  The long weekend to week long trip, very, very often with additional purchases of Vail Resorts offerings (rentals, lessons, lodging, food and beverage, etc) is far more profitable that a day tripper, on a discount ticket, who often won't buy very much, if it all other items from them. The majority of ski club day trippers also more often than not, won't be taking an extended ski vacation to one of their other resorts,  I'm guessing that based on the number of Epic Passes Vail Resorts has sold in the general Stowe area as well as the Northeast, that they made the decision, using that data to end the ski club tickets, since they're expecting that that extra crowd volume isn't worth it to their Epic Pass guests.....



I guess that is what they are thinking, but I'm not sure I buy it.

Day trippers do spend extra money there, and the mountain really handles crowds really well.  Why not have the best of both worlds?

I'm also skeptical that Stowe pass holders are eager to visit other vail properties. 

But what do I know...


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## jimmywilson69 (Oct 26, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> I'm also skeptical that Stowe pass holders are eager to visit other vail properties.
> 
> But what do I know...



Its not the prototypical Stowe Pass holder.  Its all of the other Epic Pass holders that will now be going there because they have a conduit to the west as well as the east.


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## benski (Oct 26, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> I'm also skeptical that Stowe pass holders are eager to visit other vail properties.
> 
> But what do I know...



They cut the pass prices in half for Stowe passholder. They must plan on making up the money elsewhere


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## Jully (Oct 26, 2017)

tnt1234 said:


> I guess that is what they are thinking, but I'm not sure I buy it.
> 
> Day trippers do spend extra money there, and the mountain really handles crowds really well.  Why not have the best of both worlds?
> 
> ...



I think the Stowe locals will not be eager to visit other properties, but the wealthier Stowe clientele coming up from NYC and CT may very well be interested in skiing west. Many of them likely already do!


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 26, 2017)

ss20 said:


> *I'll shoot them an email inquiring about PSIA rates...that'll be fun! *:lol:



Please paste the response here!



tnt1234 said:


> *I'm also skeptical that Stowe pass holders are eager to visit other vail properties.
> *
> But what do I know...



Oh, I think it will work great, at least in the short-term (5'ish years).   

They slashed the Stowe pass in 1/2, that will drive volume growth right there to make up some of that difference.   Only wildcard will be how obnoxious the crowds will be.  If they turn Stowe into Hunter or Killington, it will be a disaster.  But if that happens, they'll just raise the prices to sort that out.


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## SnowRock (Oct 26, 2017)

Seems like they are still participating with the vermont travel club card.. $80 rate. Was what I used for stowe for a while pre mt collective and of course has a bunch of other mountain, food and lodging deals.


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## tnt1234 (Oct 26, 2017)

Jully said:


> I think the Stowe locals will not be eager to visit other properties, but the wealthier Stowe clientele coming up from NYC and CT may very well be interested in skiing west. Many of them likely already do!



Yeah, I suppose.

Also, I know a some folks with houses up there who weren't buying passes because they were so bloody expensive.  And even with a house, it was hard to make them pay for themselves.  These families did often ski other places as well, including out west.  So yeah, make that pass more affordable, make sure everyone who skies 10 days or so locks into it, and that will lock them into a vail propterty when they travel....


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## mbedle (Nov 6, 2017)

FYI, but don't throw out your evolution card. They are not switching over to the epic pass system at Stowe this year. They are going to load a season pass onto your current evolution card. Not a big deal if you did already, you will just have to pick up a evolution card on the first visit.


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## mbedle (Nov 22, 2017)

Looks like the ski club & council appreciation days are back, @ a slightly higher amount!


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## ss20 (Nov 22, 2017)

mbedle said:


> Looks like the ski club & council appreciation days are back, @ a slightly higher amount!



$76 per day is still a tough pill to swallow.  Most "awareness days" at other major resorts are in the $40-$55 range...exceptions being mid-season Saturdays where you might pay closer to $60.  Even bulk-buy (valid anytime, buy in advance at the beginning of the season) top off at about $70.

Yes it is great that these club days are back...but if you're a ski club member chances are you're also a deal-hunter.  And with all the ways to save these days, $76 just isn't a deal.  They might get my money St. Patty's weekend.  I don't know.  Not having to buy in advance is a big win, I'll give them that.


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## hovercraft (Nov 22, 2017)

On another note the riding has been excellent for early season.  Looking forward to another great season


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## Smellytele (Nov 23, 2017)

I will go once with my skiVT tix


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2017)

ss20 said:


> $76 per day is still a tough pill to swallow..... $76 just isn't a deal.



Yeah, that's more than a "slightly higher amount".   That is the kill-it-slowly-because-of-significant-complaints price. 

Vail will get rid of it entirely within a year to two.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 23, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> I will go once with my skiVT tix



Ditto.   And I imagine that will be gone within a year to two now as well given Vail ownership.


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## Smellytele (Nov 24, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ditto.   And I imagine that will be gone within a year to two now as well given Vail ownership.



Right as they don't play with ski Colorado.


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## SIKSKIER (Nov 29, 2017)

Heard on the noon news that Stowe had to shut lifts down for a short time while a thunder snowstorm came through.Weatherman said cloud to ground lightning.


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## slatham (Nov 29, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> Heard on the noon news that Stowe had to shut lifts down for a short time while a thunder snowstorm came through.Weatherman said cloud to ground lightning.



Radar showed some decent convection so I am not surprised. The way things have been going for Stowe so far they probably got 6" in an hour!


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## thetrailboss (Dec 7, 2017)

Doesn't look like any new lifts for Stowe this coming year....

https://liftblog.com/2017/12/07/vai...kcomb-park-city-heavenly-perisher/#more-55397


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## ss20 (Dec 7, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Doesn't look like any new lifts for Stowe this coming year....
> 
> https://liftblog.com/2017/12/07/vai...kcomb-park-city-heavenly-perisher/#more-55397



Holy sh!t Whistler Blackcomb...that new gondola is gonna have figures in the neighborhood of 13,000ft run over a nearly 4,000ft rise.

That's a beast...


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## snoseek (Dec 7, 2017)

They seem big on investing into the big $$$ destination resorts but around here things are slow to change. Will be interesting to see how/ if they invest anything at stowe. I wouldn't make any assumption yet.


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## machski (Dec 8, 2017)

Not really surprised.  If they have scratched the ACT250 stuff, they probably realize it is a long process.  Not to mention, what would they upgrade?  The triple or Toll House?  I would think both would require so other major changes to support that, especially Toll House.  They may still be studying it, could be announced later like Red Buffalo at Beaver Creek this past year.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Dec 8, 2017)

machski said:


> Not really surprised.  If they have scratched the ACT250 stuff, they probably realize it is a long process.  Not to mention, what would they upgrade?  The triple or Toll House?  I would think both would require so other major changes to support that, especially Toll House.  They may still be studying it, could be announced later like Red Buffalo at Beaver Creek this past year.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



That's my thought.  Install a new HSQ at Toll House, move more parking down there.


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## SnowRock (Dec 8, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> That's my thought.  Install a new HSQ at Toll House, move more parking down there.



Would also have to add snowmaking if you do that.


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## Jully (Dec 8, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> Would also have to add snowmaking if you do that.



Is there no snowmaking on any of toll house?


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## machski (Dec 8, 2017)

Jully said:


> Is there no snowmaking on any of toll house?


None whatsoever.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## SnowRock (Dec 11, 2017)

machski said:


> None whatsoever.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yup none.. would set up nicely for another beginner pod though if they did move forward with adding snowmaking, parking and getting rid of one of the slowest lifts around. 

Based on lift conversations from my 5 days on the hill so far... couple things that people seem most worried about:
1) Crowds, lots of numbers thrown around re: Epic pass sales and those sold to folks within driving distance.  
2) Start time - seems to be murmurs that they are going to get rid of 7:30am weekend start after this season
3) Pay parking 
4) Pass pulling for skiing closed terrain

As a flatlander who mostly gets there on weekends, I'd be most upset about the start time. Love the early start. Can get in a ton of laps before the crowds show up on the weekend. The pass puling, while understandable, also doesn't fit with what I have seen for years  on the mountain. Seemed to be a looser, "know your limits and don't be flagrant approach" from patrol in the past. 

I have a feeling it will be less crowded than some are thinking but more 'regularly' crowded than years past. 

Either way, mountain is in great shape and if anyone can get there tomorrow and Wednesday I'm jealous. Got two laps in this AM before heading to boston for work and it was fun. With the snow on the front end of the system and then back end with upslope potential.. will be a blast up there mid week.


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## bdfreetuna (Dec 11, 2017)

You should try Bolton Valley on a weekend. Fresh tracks, awesome woods and cool trails, no BS, zero or short lift lines, and cheap.


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## mlkrgr (Dec 11, 2017)

Also, there are nowhere near as many opportunities to visit Stowe via round trip day bus services that include the ski lift ticket.

BSSC and New England Snow Bus doesn't even go there (ouch; those are the two largest operators). 
Nacski has trips to Stowe planned for January 1st and January 23rd, and schedule is only available through the end of January. This is typical frequency for them, but it's a departure from their now typical Saturday only schedule.
Riteway Travel went from 4 day trips and an overnight in previous years to 2 day trips and no overnight.


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## snoseek (Dec 12, 2017)

For whatever reason my employee comp passes and half offs are not valid at stowe


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## mbedle (Dec 12, 2017)

SnowRock said:


> Yup none.. would set up nicely for another beginner pod though if they did move forward with adding snowmaking, parking and getting rid of one of the slowest lifts around.
> 
> Based on lift conversations from my 5 days on the hill so far... couple things that people seem most worried about:
> 1) Crowds, lots of numbers thrown around re: Epic pass sales and those sold to folks within driving distance.
> ...



So, just to add to this. 

1) I heard the same thing. I am hoping that a lot of people bought the epic pass based on costs and still end up not using it as much. In other words, when you bought the full Stowe pass, you always had in the back of your mind that you better go to Stowe just to pay back the pass cost. Under the Epic pass, you might not feel so bad heading down to Sugarbush or Bolton to do something different. Did hear the place is still dead midweek, which will be nice. 
2) I didn't hear that, but it wouldn't surprise me. That would suck, always like the early runs on the weekends before the crowds get there.
3) I'm not sure what the advantage would be with paid parking (other then money). With the limited access to the parking area (one way in and one way out), having a separate line to feed a paid lot would be near impossible and most likely make the parking situation worst.  They are trying to better park people to utilize every spot in the lots. They are roping off the lots and forcing everyone to park basically from the front of Mansfield back to the easy over lift. No longer the sort of free for all that they had last year. 
4) Heard this also. It was very clear from all of the signs that they do not want people skiing on closed terrain. They also are giving out speeding tickets!
5) They are a lot more strict on their uphill travel. 

Good news is, they are kicking ass right now with the most terrain open in the east.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2017)

super whack that stowe is gonna pull passes for skiing closed terrain


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## benski (Dec 12, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> super whack that stowe is gonna pull passes for skiing closed terrain



Just don't ski up to the patroller at the bottom of the trail and your fine, isn't that every ski areas policy.


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## mbedle (Dec 12, 2017)

Dumping and no crowds mid week. Hopefully this is a good sign for midweek skiing there this season. Another observation I noticed this weekend is the complete disconnect between the ski area and Spruce Peak. You can not find anything on the ski area property mentioning Spruce Peak. They even took down all of the signs on the cross over lift. They also updated the websites with Stowe now being promoted as a destination resort (as compared to the mid western areas).


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2017)

i didn't ever expect there to be midweek crowds as a result of epic pass. the overwhelming majority of people, and specifically epic pass holders in boston, ct, nyc, nj etc, have regular flatland jobs. there aren't enough college students and people with weird work schedules, who also have epic passes, to make a significant weekday impact. even Vermonters with passes still have jobs. 

i do expect holidays and weekends to be notably shittier than in the past.


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## mbedle (Dec 12, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i didn't ever expect there to be midweek crowds as a result of epic pass. the overwhelming majority of people, and specifically epic pass holders in boston, ct, nyc, nj etc, have regular flatland jobs. there aren't enough college students and people with weird work schedules, who also have epic passes, to make a significant weekday impact. even Vermonters with passes still have jobs.
> 
> i do expect holidays and weekends to be notably shittier than in the past.



That makes sense. I was thinking more of the college age crowd and the large amount of seasonal employees that have more flexible schedules and that may be able to afford to ski there more often.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2017)

sugarbush/mt ellen/mrg college pass for $375 remains a way more attractive option for UVM students than an epic pass. Bolton is also super cheap for them. jay and burke have a good college pass, as does killington. epic is all about the weekend warriors and ski travellers.


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## cdskier (Dec 12, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> super whack that stowe is gonna pull passes for skiing closed terrain



Is it really that difficult for people to follow the rules? Unless stowe's ski patrol is super conservative when it comes to dropping ropes, then I have no problems with pass pulling for skiing closed terrain. I would probably start with only a short term pull (a day) and only pull longer for repeat offenders. But I think people need to have more respect for patrol and their decisions on terrain opening.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2017)

bullshit. trail closures are for the general tourist public. if you are competent enough to ski the trail, then you shouldn't have you pass ganked for skiing it. it's about good judgment and knowing the mountain and how to read the snow and the terrain. and for patrol, its about sizing up the offender and determining if they were using good judgment or not. this is one reason i appreciate sugarbush, they open everything and mark it well and caveat emptor. nanny state ski patrol, no thanks. its especially lame at places like loon where they close a completely good to go trail because of a little bit of exposed water. just mark it and let the people ski! it worked to my advantage tho, lapping calf deep powder all morning on sunday.


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## Smellytele (Dec 12, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> sugarbush/mt ellen/mrg college pass for $375 remains a way more attractive option for UVM students than an epic pass. Bolton is also super cheap for them. jay and burke have a good college pass, as does killington. epic is all about the weekend warriors and ski travellers.



Some of the colleges have free passes to some areas. Castleton has free passes to k. St mike's used to have them for smuggs. Uvm might have them free to somewhere


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## deadheadskier (Dec 12, 2017)

I went to UVM in the late 90s and two of my housemates went to St. Michael's.  Back then no place offered a free pass.  Stowe was the most expensive, but it was still around $350 where as the others were in the $200-300 range

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## thetrailboss (Dec 12, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Some of the colleges have free passes to some areas. Castleton has free passes to k. St mike's used to have them for smuggs. Uvm might have them free to somewhere
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Doubt that.  Neither Dartmouth nor Middlebury, who own their own ski areas, give free passes to their students.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 12, 2017)

castleton and st mikes are small schools. uvm has too many students to be giving out free passes. but i'd wager way more of them ski at sugarbush/mrg than stowe.


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## Scruffy (Dec 12, 2017)

benski said:


> Just don't ski up to the patroller at the bottom of the trail and your fine, isn't that every *east coast* *New England* ski areas policy.



Fixed it for ya. Don't do that out west, Western Canada, or Europe; consequences are much higher, for you, and the ski patrol; but I assume you know that ;-)


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## benski (Dec 13, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> Fixed it for ya. Don't do that out west, Western Canada, or Europe; consequences are much higher, for you, and the ski patrol; but I assume you know that ;-)



No. I poached a skied off trail in Innsbruck that directly from one lift too another. What else could they do?


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 13, 2017)

the point is that poaching trails in the east will most likely not kill you or the people tasked with rescuing you. you may end up in something unskiable and need to walk out, but you aren't setting off avalanches and falling into infinite crevasses


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## ironhippy (Dec 13, 2017)

Out west you can be arrested for ducking ropes, you can also stumble onto slopes that are actively being bombed for avalanches.


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## Jully (Dec 13, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> Out west you can be arrested for ducking ropes, you can also stumble onto slopes that are actively being bombed for avalanches.



Arrested?? Had no idea.


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## ironhippy (Dec 13, 2017)

Jully said:


> Arrested?? Had no idea.



Yeah, I'm not sure how often it happens but it has happened in the past. You are trespassing.

It gets serious when you are talking about avalanches and throwing bombs around.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 13, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> *It gets serious when you are talking about *avalanches and* throwing bombs around.*



That moment you're laying tracks in untouched powder all to yourself, when suddenly the mortars turn it into a WWII alpen combat scene.


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## SnowRock (Dec 13, 2017)

My point re: pass pulling and in speaking with others was that it simply seemed way more aggressive than the approach Mt Mansfield Ski Patrol had in the past based on my experience. No local but have skied there 10-15 days a year going on 7-8 years and plenty of times early season, it always appeared to be more of a liberal, be smart policy... even in discussion with patrol riding the quad watching people poach lift-line last season. I'm not one to really push things in the skiing closed terrain department, but there have been times up there where even I joined in the action.  

More importantly, up to 20+ over the past two days. Hopefully some folks are out getting some. Really hoping we keep cold through Christmas... back up Dec 27th.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 14, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That moment you're laying tracks in untouched powder all to yourself, when suddenly the mortars turn it into a WWII alpen combat scene.



That scene was deleted from Dunkirk.


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## Highway Star (Dec 14, 2017)

Stowe has always  been pretty aggressive about enforcing trail closures, I can only imagine how it is now.  Good luck.


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## burski (Jan 8, 2018)

Wondering if there are any updates on Stowe since the Vail acquisition?  I realize the season is still young, and the weather to date may have had some influence, but there were predictions of doom and gloom and major overcrowding at the resort when the acquisition was announced.  Aside from pass-holders saving some significant $ on their season passes, has there been any noticeable operational changes to date?  Has the predicted over crowding been a reality?  Any noticeable difference in crowds or clientele?


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## mbedle (Jan 9, 2018)

To be honest, this weather and lift operations are driving the crowds or lack there of, at Stowe. For today, maybe slightly higher than normal, but still pretty empty. Some operational changes have occurred. GPS trackers installed on all vehicles, including the snowmobiles for the lift mechanics. Loss of some employee benefits. They seem to be a bit over careful with lift operations and wind issues, but again, this weather has been rough on everybody. They stuck up a bunch of huge signs to tell you when to lower or raise the bars. Have heard of people getting yelled at for raising the bar to soon. They are parking cars very carefully to maximize usage. They use to do that only on the weekends, but they have the attendants out there everyday now. Definitely more strict with staying off closed trails, early in the season. Word is something is going to happen in the spring, but what is up in the air.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2018)

mbedle said:


> *Loss of some employee benefits.*



Here's what I recall:

1) Free skiing (surely that remains)
2) Free rentals (demo whatever the hell you want)
3) 50% off food prices
4) Free ski lessons
5) x% off (I cant remember) ski shop prices

Was it some of that stuff they took away?


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## mbedle (Jan 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Here's what I recall:
> 
> 1) Free skiing (surely that remains)
> 2) Free rentals (demo whatever the hell you want)
> ...



Yes, that is exactly the stuff they took away or reduced the percentage off. I was back out on Tuesday and I can say that the crowds are bigger.


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## hovercraft (Jan 14, 2018)

I have been out over 30 times so far most of the time mountain is empty.  The crowds are significantly less then last year.  As reported above parking attendants all the time.  You don’t see the collage kids at the mountain like you did last year.  With the bush under cutting Stowe on the collage pass plus the 20 and 30 pass I think lots of that business went away which opened the mountain up.  I have been pleasantly surprised at the lack of crowds.  Hope it stays that way.....


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## slatham (Jan 14, 2018)

hovercraft said:


> I have been out over 30 times so far most of the time mountain is empty.  The crowds are significantly less then last year.  As reported above parking attendants all the time.  You don’t see the collage kids at the mountain like you did last year.  With the bush under cutting Stowe on the collage pass plus the 20 and 30 pass I think lots of that business went away which opened the mountain up.  I have been pleasantly surprised at the lack of crowds.  Hope it stays that way.....



My guess is your experience has been heavily influenced by the cold temps. I am interested to see what happens on a seasonally warm weekend with decent snow.


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## hovercraft (Jan 14, 2018)

Up until dec 23 we did have great snow and seasonal temps.  I’m sure there will be days when it gets crowded but overall my sense tells me it’s not going to be a shit show like everyone predicted.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 14, 2018)

hovercraft said:


> *Up until dec 23 *we did have great snow and seasonal temps.  I’m sure there will be days when it gets crowded but overall my sense tells me it’s not going to be a shit show like everyone predicted.



The crowds of ski season don't show up until right after that - Christmas week.  December 26th is the official start of "ski crowds".


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## hovercraft (Jan 15, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> The crowds of ski season don't show up until right after that - Christmas week.  December 26th is the official start of "ski crowds".


Yes, I am aware of that.  I am comparing this year to last year in the same time frame.  In that comparison there are significantly less people at the mountain this year.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jan 15, 2018)

Guy offers an on scene description of his 30 days.  The internet disputes him....  

thanks hovercraft.


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## fbrissette (Jan 15, 2018)

This is all due to weather.   Jay Peak has pretty much been empty since the beginning of the year.

The other possibility is that lowering ticket price actually decreases crowds....


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## hovercraft (Jan 15, 2018)

This is fun, again the weather wasn’t cold up to the 23rd.  In that time frame compared to last year there were significantly less people at the mountain.  Weather had nothing to do with that.  I am sure that the weather since the 23rd has had an effect on crowds.  In my experience I do not see the same amount of young people or bus tours at the mountain.  It’s noticeably less.  But who knows maybe my 31st day will be completely different....
@jimmywilson69 your welcome!


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 15, 2018)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Guy offers an on scene description of his 30 days.  The internet disputes him....
> 
> thanks hovercraft.



I wasn't "disputing" him, I was making the observation that ski resorts are never "crowded" before Christmas.  I also used to work at Stowe for a number of years, and it was never "crowded" before Christmas.  

 Are ANY ski resorts "crowded" before Christmas?   I was at Smuggler's Notch this year on a lovely mid-December Saturday after a TON of natural snowfall and on the very day that they dropped the ropes on Madonna - it wasn't crowded.


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## SnowRock (Jan 15, 2018)

I’ve been up quite a few times so far. While it has been early season, outside of the absurd cold New Years time frame, I tend to agree that you don’t see the busses or group trips so far this season. I was up about the same amount this time last year and it certainly seemed busier. I have no doubt there will be days where it’s packed, it just has not been close to the predicted apocalypse with the crazy number of passes sold people were throwing out.


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## fbrissette (Jan 15, 2018)

SnowRock said:


> I’ve been up quite a few times so far. While it has been early season, outside of the absurd cold New Years time frame, I tend to agree that you don’t see the busses or group trips so far this season. I was up about the same amount this time last year and it certainly seemed busier. I have no doubt there will be days where it’s packed, it just has not been close to the predicted apocalypse with the crazy number of passes sold people were throwing out.



I'm not debating yours or hovercraft's observations.   

However, by all means it's been a strange year and I don't think it's possible to draw any conclusions at this point in the season, and certainly not based on current anecdotal observations.  For all we know, globally, skier-visits may be down 50% in the east, with Stowe at 20%.  As I said earlier, Jay Peak has been empty compared to last year.   I have yet to wait for a lift, in my 15 days if skiing (not counting a few 10-minute lines for the Tram with the Flyer empty).  

I think most resorts are hurting pretty bad right now.


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