# Why Are Americans Dominating the Tour De France?



## andyzee (Jul 24, 2006)

In the past 20 years, Americans have won the Tour De France 11 times. Greg Lemond won it in 86, 89, and 90. Armstrong took 7 tours from 99-2005. Now Landis takes it for an 11th American win in the past 20 years. From what I read, I don't believe that Americans even got involved in the Tour until 81. So what's up with that?


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## skibum1321 (Jul 24, 2006)

Well of those 11 wins, 7 of them were Lance, who is the greatest cyclist of all time.

I'm not saying there should be an asterisk next to Landis's name, but let us not forget that 2 of the tour favorites were banned from cycling right before the race.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 24, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Well of those 11 wins, 7 of them were Lance, who is the greatest cyclist of all time.


 
No.  That's Eddie Merckx.  Not even debatable.  Lance himself has said so many times.



> I'm not saying there should be an asterisk next to Landis's name, but let us not forget that 2 of the tour favorites were banned from cycling right before the race.


 
They were not. That's an inaccurate stement. But, to the extent that they are shown to have been doping - why would that have any bearing on Landis' win?  I don't follow.  "Yeah, you won, but two cheaters weren't allowed to race against you so it's not like you _really_ won."

Where's the logic in that?


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## bruno (Jul 24, 2006)

in all seriousness, europeans IN GENERAL, do not have the will or the character for this type of event. simple as that. ever been to a gym in europe? particularly france? go to one and you'll understand. they're not bad people, just not athletes in general. :flag: :flag: :flag: 

wait til more black riders enter the ranks. it'll be like tiger woods and golf.


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## skibum1321 (Jul 25, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> No.  That's Eddie Merckx.  Not even debatable.  Lance himself has said so many times.


It is certainly debatable. With all that Lance has overcome and all of his achievements, he is definitely in contention for that title. Cycling would not even be on the radar in America without Lance - he has done more for this sport in America than anyone else in history.



			
				freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> They were not. That's an inaccurate stement. But, to the extent that they are shown to have been doping - why would that have any bearing on Landis' win?  I don't follow.  "Yeah, you won, but two cheaters weren't allowed to race against you so it's not like you _really_ won."
> 
> Where's the logic in that?


I'm just saying that the 2 superstars of the sport weren't there. That's like having a home run contest without Barry Bonds. Even though Bonds is a doper he still bashes home runs better than almost anyone out there.

There are a lot more dopers out there in cycling - they just may be taking drugs that aren't on the radar yet. They haven't even scratched the surface yet.


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## andyzee (Jul 25, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Cycling would not even be on the radar in America without Lance - he has done more for this sport in America than anyone else in history.


 
I have to disagree with that, yes Lance did a lot, but it's Greg Lemond that put cycling in the lime light here.

Something else to think about;

Lemond got shot accidentily, it was so bad they thought he may not ride again. He came back and won two more Tours.

Lance Armstrong had a battle with cancer, he won the tour 7 times.

The latest winner Landis, has an arthritic hip and will probably go for a replacement.

What would happen if America came up with a healthy cyclist? :lol:


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> It is certainly debatable.


No it's not. Get a clue. The Cannibal won 5 Giros and 5 Tours. His first Tour he won ALL the jerseys. He also raced the Classics in the snow and mud sliddin' around on the cobbles with 150 other crazies. Lance was in Texas in the Spring and never even rode a Giro. Stop making a fool of yourself.




> With all that Lance has overcome and all of his achievements, he is definitely in contention for that title.


 
See above. Lance himself has acknowledged this MANY times. Why can't you? 



> Cycling would not even be on the radar in America without Lance - he has done more for this sport in America than anyone else in history.


 
Wrong on the first part. Right on the second part.





> I'm just saying that the 2 superstars of the sport weren't there.


"The" two superstars? Many picked Floyd to win even before Operation Puerto claimed Jan and Ivan. Whatever.


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## skibum1321 (Jul 25, 2006)

No need for personal attacks. We're all entitled to our opinions, but as we've seen on this board time and again you always think you're the final word.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> No need for personal attacks. We're all entitled to our opinions, but as we've seen on this board time and again you always think you're the final word.


 
Ohhhh...toughen up!  :lol: 

Your "opinion" smacks of Amero-centric blather. uke:  If you're gonna bother having an "opinion" about something you might as well know what the hell you're talking about, no?

Lance is the Man!  Don't get me wrong, the guy is way cool IMO and the best rider of the TdF in its history.  He had that race *wired*.  The last two Tour de Lances were boring; everybody else was racing for second from the outset.

But the best _cyclist _in history?  C'mon. 

_Second_ best cyclist in history is "debatable".  But _best_ cyclist in history?  Not so much.  Merckx is head and shoulders above everybody else.


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## ctenidae (Jul 25, 2006)

It's because we have cooler bikes, and a better fashion sense.


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## andyzee (Jul 25, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> Merckx is head and shoulders above everybody else.


 
I've heard of Merckx before, know he was big in his day, but not really a big cycling fan, so can you do me a favor? Let me know what you have to back up that statement.


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## andyzee (Jul 25, 2006)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> It's because we have cooler bikes, and a better fashion sense.


 
Really, I don't think we have better bikes.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> I've heard of Merckx before, know he was big in his day, but not really a big cycling fan, so can you do me a favor? Let me know what you have to back up that statement.


 
A quick google yeilds this:

_One can only diminish the fullness of Eddy Merckx's racing career by attempting to summarize it. Even a comprehensive listing of his palmares seems like an insufficient means to express his dominance. How can one distill the essence of a man who so rightfully earned the nickname 'The Cannibal'? He is the only professional cyclist who rode without a single weakness against which to plot. In the mountains, against the watch, in sprints, for one-day classics or three-week grand tours, Merckx was just unbeatable -- it seemed like he devoured his opposition. He won the Tour de France in 1969 at the age of 24 and went on to win four more with ease. He became the common reference for all cyclists of his generation, and he will forever be the benchmark against which the great champions will be measured. Merckx won 525 races in his career -- in 1974 he was the first man to win the Giro d'Italia, Le Tour and the World Championships in one season. In that same season he also won all three Jerseys (Yellow, Green & Polka-Dot) in the Tour -- making him the best overall rider, the best sprinter and the best climber_. 

And this:


*Successes in stage racing and single day races*

_Merckx started competing in 1961. Three years later he became __world champion__ in the amateur category, before turning professional in 1965. In 1966 he won the first of seven editions of __Milan-San Remo__. A year later he became world champion in the professional category in __Heerlen__, __The Netherlands__. He would win this title twice more._
_In __1968__ Merckx started his domination of the Grand Tours by becoming the first Belgian to win the Giro d'Italia. He would repeat this four times._
_In his Tour de France debut in 1969, Merckx immediately won the __yellow jersey__ (overall leader), the __green jersey__ (best sprinter) and the __red polka-dotted jersey__ ("King of the Mountains" - best climber in the mountain stages). No other cyclist has achieved this __trifecta__ in the Tour de France, and only __Laurent Jalabert__ has been able to match this feat at the Grand Tour level, in the 1995 Vuelta. If the young riders' white jersey (for best rider in the Tour under 25 years of age) had existed at that time, Merckx would have won that one as well, as he had only just turned 24. It was the first time a Belgian won the Tour de France since __Sylvère Maes__ thirty years earlier, and because of this Merckx became a __national hero__. Like the Giro, he would win this contest also four more times: in __1970__, __1971__, __1972__ and __1974__, equalling Frenchman __Jacques Anquetil__. Over the next 25 years, only __Bernard Hinault__ and __Miguel Indurain__ were able to equal the five victories. Then __Lance Armstrong__ broke the record and went on winning the Tour for a sixth (__2004__) and a seventh (__2005__) time. Merckx still holds the records for stage wins (34) and number of days in the Yellow Jersey (96)._
_When Armstrong was about to break his Tour victory-record, Merckx admitted that, in retrospect, he regretted his decision to not participate in the 1973 edition[citation needed] (Merckx rode in the Vuelta instead and won the general classification). At the time, he had responded to Tour-organizer Goddet's public announcement that they would rather see someone else win for a change. In his absence, __Spaniard__Luis Ocaña__, who had crashed out while wearing the yellow jersey in a previous edition, won the Tour. However, Merckx also argued that the race didn't have quite the same impact as today, and that his decision had to be considered in that light. Few people doubt that he could have won a few more Tours if he hadn't stopped after just seven starts._
_In addition to these well-known Grand Tour successes, Merckx also has an impressive list of victories in one-day races (for a comprehensive list, see lower down). Among the highlights are a record of seven victories in the race Milan-San Remo, which to this day hasn't been equalled, five times __Liège-Bastogne-Liège__ and three wins in __Paris-Roubaix__, the Hell of the North. He also won the World Road Racing Championship a record three times in __1967__, __1971__ and __1974__, and every single one of the __Classic cycle races__, except Paris-Tours. Finally, he was also victorious in no less than 17 __six-day__ track races on the __velodrome__, often with his partner __Patrick Sercu__._
_Merckx retired from racing in __1978__, at the age of 33. According to his own words, his body was still up to it but the psychological pressure had exhausted him.[citation needed]_
_[__edit__]_
http://forums.alpinezone.com/
*Setbacks and lesser days*

_The blackest day in Merckx's career dates from 1969, when he crashed in a __derny race__ towards the end of the season. A pacer and a cyclist fell in front of Merckx's pacer, Fernand Wambst, and caused both him and Merckx to crash. His pacer was killed instantly, and Merckx suffered a bad __concussion__ and fell unconscious. This accident cracked a __vertebra__ and twisted his __pelvis__. He admitted in __interviews__ that, because of his injuries, his riding was never the same. He would keep adjusting his __saddle__ while riding to make sure it had the right position, and would always be in pain, especially while climbing._
_That same year, during the Giro d'Italia, he was confronted with accusations of drug use. Because of this, he was forced to leave the contest. Merckx cried in front of the press and to this day keeps repeating people cheated with the doping test. He claims that there were no counter-experts nor counter-analysis available and that some foreign supporters hated him. Further, he claimed that the stage during which he was allegedly using drugs was an easy one for everybody, so there was no need to use any drugs. The Belgian __prince__ sent a plane to bring him back to Belgium. This incident was one of the reasons why Merckx would consider his first Tour de France victory, later that year, as his best ever._
_The end of his great Tour-career came in 1975. At that year's Tour de France, he attempted to win his sixth, but became a victim of __violence__. Many Frenchmen were upset that a Belgian might beat the record of five wins set by Frenchman Jacques Anquetil. Merckx held the yellow jersey for eight days of the race, which raised his record to 96 total days, but during stage 14 a French spectator leapt from the crowd and punched him in the liver area. On top of this, a collision with Danish rider __Ole Ritter__ resulted in a broken jaw at a later stage. Despite the fact that he could not eat solid food, and was barely able to talk, Merckx did not retire from the race. During the very last stage, he even attacked leader __Bernard Thevenet__ (but was caught by the __peloton__). Later, Merckx would consider his refusal to quit after the injury as the biggest mistake in his career, since it permanently undermined his physical strength._
_[__edit__]_
http://forums.alpinezone.com/
*Hour record*

_

__

_
_The bicycle Merckx used during his hour speed record attempt_


_In addition to his achievements in regular professional cycling, Merckx also set the bicycle __hour speed record__ in __1972__. On October 25, he covered 49.431 km at high altitude in __Mexico City__. The record would remain untouched until __1984__, when __Francesco Moser__ broke it using a specially designed bicycle and meticulously studied improvements in streamlining. Over the next 15 years, various racers would keep improving the record, up to more than 56 km (__Chris Boardman__). However, because of the increasingly exotic design of the bikes and position of the rider, these performances were no longer reasonably comparable to Merckx's achievement. In response to this, the __UCI__ went back to basics and introduced the UCI Hour Record in __2000__, requiring a "traditional" bike to be used. When __Boardman__ subsequently had another go at Merckx's reinstated record 28 years later, he bested it by slightly more than 10 meters._
_[__edit__]_
http://forums.alpinezone.com/
*The greatest cyclist of all time?*

_Assigning someone the title of the greatest cyclist of all time will always be an intrinsically controversial issue. On one hand, career statistics (in which Merckx clearly dominates) can be considered an objective measurement. On the other hand, they should not be separated from their context —the times, the training methods, and the opponents have changed._
_For several years Daniel Marszalek has kept an internationally acknowledged weighed ranking to determine the best cyclists since __1892__.[1] The ranking takes the (fluctuating) relative importance of races into account to get a balanced result. In the "overall ranking", __2005__ edition, Merckx had almost twice as many points as the second (5.844,80 points vs 3.312,80 points for __Bernard Hinault__, with 16 other racers totaling more than 2000 pts). He has similar margins in separate classifications for Classic races and Tours, best 5-season and best 10-season rankings, and best individual season overall (including the 6 best individual seasons ever, and seven out of the top ten). As a comparison, Lance Armstrong was ranked 15th with 2090,70 points at the end of his career in 2005._

That last part I highlighted.


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## skibum1321 (Jul 25, 2006)

Maybe calling Lance the best cyclist of all time may have been a bit of an overstatement. But as your last post says, it is an intrinsically controversial issue. Hence, everyone has different opinions, based on different criteria. It is similar to picking the best trails in the East, which we do at least 5 times a year here. Everyone has their own opinions, based on their own criteria for what they consider the best. I admit that I don't know my cycling history so I was probably wrong in calling him the best of all time, but I'm just throwing that out there.

I still stand by my assertion that cycling would not be on the radar screen in America without Lance. By on the radar, I mean reaching an audience beyond the hardcore cyclists that have always existed, but in small numbers.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Maybe calling Lance the best cyclist of all time may have been a bit of an overstatement. But as your last post says, it is an intrinsically controversial issue. Hence, everyone has different opinions, based on different criteria. It is similar to picking the best trails in the East, which we do at least 5 times a year here. Everyone has their own opinions, based on their own criteria for what they consider the best. I admit that I don't know my cycling history so I was probably wrong in calling him the best of all time, but I'm just throwing that out there.
> 
> I still stand by my assertion that cycling would not be on the radar screen in America without Lance. By on the radar, I mean reaching an audience beyond the hardcore cyclists that have always existed, but in small numbers.


 
I would say the film "Breaking Away" put cycling on the American Radar.  LeMond inspired a generation of American riders (including Lance) that they could be more than just peloton fodder and really woke up the average American to the sport.  Perhaps the passage of time has dimmed your recollection but when LeMond won the Tour in '86 it was HUGE!  And not just among hardcore cyclists.  Lance advanced the sport's visibility by an order of magnitude (or two) and his influence can't be disregarded.  But it was on the "Radar" before Lance.  Perhaps not your radar but none of us define the "average American".

As for the comment of "intrinsically controversial" - I had a feeling you might pick up on that.  You'll note that the entry (That's a wiki) goes on to state that when someone tried to weigh the stats to make them more objective - Eddy had twice as many points as the runner up and Lance finished 15th.  It really is not debated by anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of the sport's history.  You really should read about the guy's exploits - I don't think you'd debate the point if you did.  I know that sounds condescending and I apologize - but it's true.  

I guess if even_ one_ scientist says the Earth is flat we have a "debate" - but not a genuine one.


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## Angus (Jul 25, 2006)

there was an excellent article about this in the WSJ either last Friday or Saturday. The article contention was that until recently (with success of lemonde, armstrong and the guy who won Sunday - forgive me!) Americans were on the outside looking in - not really wanted by the traditional powers (still really aren't) and the Americans that have risen to the top are "eccentrics" - a) very, very innovative in their training methods - use of bike gear, wind tunnels, new cycling postures, innovative workout programs, etc. b) strong willed, tough, tough competitors - given their status as outsiders - i.e. won't take no for an answer & learned to sacrifice and deal with hardship and c) Americans have been willing to focus on a selective # of events rather than everything under the sun like the euro-dominated teams

BTW: I've followed the Tour this year casually but the fact that Floyd Landis (I googled) didn't role off my tongue is evidence of the problem bicycling will have going forward. Lance sucked all the air out of the sport.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

Angus said:
			
		

> BTW: I've followed the Tour this year casually but the fact that Floyd Landis (I googled) didn't role off my tongue is evidence of the problem bicycling will have going forward. Lance sucked all the air out of the sport.


 
I don't know that that's a "problem".  Cycling is an awesome sport and I've been a rabid fan for over 20 years without it appearing in the daily sports pages or getting much (if any) TV air play.  I remember when you couldn't even watch the Tour - just weekly "summaries" on CBS and/or ABC's WWoS.  Long live Phil Ligget!  I've been listening to that guy forever!  

And I don't think Lance's name "rolled off" many non-cycling fan's tongues before he'd won his second or third Tour. If Landis comes back from his surgery (and I predict he will) his name recognition will increase.


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## ctenidae (Jul 25, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> Really, I don't think we have better bikes.



Not better, just cooler.

Big difference.


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## andyzee (Jul 25, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> A quick google yeilds this:
> 
> _One can only diminish the fullness of Eddy Merckx's racing career by attempting to summarize it. Even a comprehensive listing of his palmares seems like an insufficient means to express his dominance. ..............................................................................................................................._
> _.........................................................................................., requiring a "traditional" bike to be used. When __Boardman__ subsequently had another go at Merckx's reinstated record 28 years later, he bested it by slightly more than 10 meters._
> ...


 
Damn those are some impressive stats to say the least, he was clearly a damn animal!

Thanks for the info. However, I do still like the point that *The greatest cyclist of all time?* is a contriversial statement.


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## andyzee (Jul 25, 2006)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> Not better, just cooler.
> 
> Big difference.


 
I don't even know about the cooler bikes part, maybe it's just cooler riders!


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> Damn those are some impressive stats to say the least, he was clearly a damn animal!
> 
> Thanks for the info. However, I do still like the point that *The greatest cyclist of all time?* is a contriversial statement.


 
OMFG!  If it's not Merckx, who the F could it possibly be?  Who?


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## andyzee (Jul 25, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> OMFG! If it's not Merckx, who the F could it possibly be? Who?


 
I'm not saying he wasn't the best, chances are he was. It's just that it's tough comparing people from different eras. You could always argue the competition is tougher during one era than another. You could argue difference in training, equipment, etc.......


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 25, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> I'm not saying he wasn't the best, chances are he was. It's just that it's tough comparing people from different eras. You could always argue the competition is tougher during one era than another. You could argue difference in training, equipment, etc.......


 
You could always argue anything you want I guess.  It's only a "debate" if someone argues back.

I'm out.


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## Marc (Jul 25, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> OMFG!  If it's not Merckx, who the F could it possibly be?  Who?



While you've been a dick since the beginning of this discussion willy, I agree with you 100%.  Most people that follow professionaly cycling will tell you that Merckx was the greatest cyclist all time bar none.


He's like the Mario Andretti of cycling.


Also Willy, while it was LeMond that put the Americans in yellow for the first time I think the whole 7 Eleven team had a lot to do with convincing American cyclists they could be more than "peleton fodder."

And for a point of order, Breaking Away sucked.  American Flyers was much better.  The kid in Breaking Away was annoying as f**k.  I can't comment about the film's influence, however, since I was born in '82.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

Just like to get it goin' Marc.    Don't read too much into it.;-)


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## Marc (Jul 26, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> Just like to get it goin' Marc.    Don't read too much into it.;-)



Calling you a dick based on how you originally responded to skibum wasn't reading too much into it.  That was pretty much right on the surface.


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## skibum1321 (Jul 26, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> I would say the film "Breaking Away" put cycling on the American Radar.  LeMond inspired a generation of American riders (including Lance) that they could be more than just peloton fodder and really woke up the average American to the sport.  Perhaps the passage of time has dimmed your recollection but when LeMond won the Tour in '86 it was HUGE!  And not just among hardcore cyclists.


I was 3 at the time...


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

Marc said:
			
		

> Calling you a dick based on how you originally responded to skibum wasn't reading too much into it. That was pretty much right on the surface.


 
What?  He made an outrageous statement and I responded rather forcefully but politely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *skibum1321*
_Well of those 11 wins, 7 of them were Lance, who is the greatest cyclist of all time._


*No. That's Eddie Merckx. Not even debatable. Lance himself has said so many times*.


Quote:
I'm not saying there should be an asterisk next to Landis's name, but let us not forget that 2 of the tour favorites were banned from cycling right before the race. 

*They were not. That's an inaccurate stement. But, to the extent that they are shown to have been doping - why would that have any bearing on Landis' win? I don't follow. "Yeah, you won, but two cheaters weren't allowed to race against you so it's not like you really won."

Where's the logic in that?*


But he persisted on clinging to his delusion, so I slammed him a little bit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by *skibum1321*
_It is certainly debatable. _

*No it's not. Get a clue. The Cannibal won 5 Giros and 5 Tours. His first Tour he won ALL the jerseys. He also raced the Classics in the snow and mud sliddin' around on the cobbles with 150 other crazies. Lance was in Texas in the Spring and never even rode a Giro. Stop making a fool of yourself.
*


Quote:
With all that Lance has overcome and all of his achievements, he is definitely in contention for that title. 

*See above. Lance himself has acknowledged this MANY times. Why can't you? 
*

Quote:

Cycling would not even be on the radar in America without Lance - he has done more for this sport in America than anyone else in history.




*Wrong on the first part. Right on the second part.
*



Quote:

I'm just saying that the 2 superstars of the sport weren't there. 


*"The" two superstars? Many picked Floyd to win even before Operation Puerto claimed Jan and Ivan. Whatever.*

Now we come to find out that skibum was 3 when Lemond won the Tour in '86 and that that fact is supposed to somehow absolve him from the responsibility of knowing something about an issue upon which he voluntarily sounded off?   C'mon!  I know you AZers stick together but why not let the guy sink or swim on his own?  I was a lot more gentle than I would have been in the RSN days, believe me.  Lighten up Francis.


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## bvibert (Jul 26, 2006)

Lets keep the discussion clean folks.  No need to resort to resort to childish tactics.



			
				freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> What?  He made an outrageous statement and I responded rather forcefully but politely:


I don't think most, including me, would consider your responses polite.



			
				Marc said:
			
		

> Calling you a dick based on how you originally responded to skibum wasn't reading too much into it. That was pretty much right on the surface.


While I'm sure that a lot of people agree there really is no need for name calling.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

This place is so whitebread. Yuck.

Go here for good fun.


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## Greg (Jul 26, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> This place is so whitebread. Yuck.


Perhaps. But over the years we've found that most folks like AZ just the way it is. Different strokes for different folks. Oh, and you were far from polite. I think it was riverc0il that suggested several years ago that a good approach is to only post something that you would say to someone face to face. Anybody that would cast insults just for having a different opinion is not somebody I'd want to hang with...


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## bruno (Jul 26, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> Perhaps. But over the years we've found that most folks like AZ just the way it is. Different strokes for different folks. Oh, and you were far from polite. I think it was riverc0il that suggested several years ago that a good approach is to only post something that you would say to someone face to face. Anybody that would cast insults just for having a different opinion is not somebody I'd want to hang with...



right on brah! i think ol' freeheel needs to ride his bike a little more. dude runs his mouf prolly more'n he rides his bike.

and i'd say this to yer face freeheel, you come off like a douche. you're prolly a good guy in real life but on da intraweb, you're a serious tool. jus' sayin'. . . .:-D


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

bruno said:
			
		

> right on brah! i think ol' freeheel needs to ride his bike a little more. dude runs his mouf prolly more'n he rides his bike.
> 
> and i'd say this to yer face freeheel, you come off like a douche. you're prolly a good guy in real life but on da intraweb, you're a serious tool. jus' sayin'. . . .:-D


 

:razz: 

Buddy, I read with a combination of disbelief and hilarity your near daily posts regarding your latest lame-o, lolly-gag. You DEFINITELY couldn't stay in my draft. You, of _all _people, should keep your empty head down.:razz: :razz: :beer: :dunce:  :flag: :flame: :smash: 

Greg, I know most of the AZers like it. That's cool. If you go back and read the development of this thread though, I think it's clear what happened: the AZ Lynch Mob comes-a-cruisin' when one of its favored members is perceived to be under assault. And it's pretty obvious that, for some reason, Marc and Bruno have just been itchin' for an excuse to start in. I was called a "dick" and now a "douche". That's pretty provocative stuff but I still haven't responded in-kind. And I don't intend to.


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## Marc (Jul 26, 2006)

Sorry mods, general AZ readership if I was out of line.  I call em like I see em.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

Guys, let's bury the hatchet.  I don't want to see this thread locked.  We all got our licks in.  I'm ready to stop.


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## Marc (Jul 26, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> But I'm not allowed to.:roll:



I was spoken to as well, as I was out of line.


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## andyzee (Jul 26, 2006)

I say that next year we get Alpine Zone to sponser a team in the Tour. We head up, kick some ass and this will all be a mute point


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## awf170 (Jul 26, 2006)

Greg said:
			
		

> . But over the years we've found that most folks like AZ just the way it is.



I'm not quite sure.  For some reason to me it seems like a good chunk of people actually don't really like the moderation but still post here because of the cool people, ski talk, etc.  This is just my opinion, but that is just the vibe I get.  It actually seems like half the flame wars we get here are because of moderation.  I understand that it is your board and you have the control to do what you want and regardless of the moderation I will still post here.


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## andyzee (Jul 26, 2006)

Trouble maker  :roll:


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## Charlie Schuessler (Jul 26, 2006)

Based on my reading of professional cycling history, the Best Cyclist is Eddie "The Cannibal" Merckx.  Merckx raced any/every type of race all season long and won single day events, multiday events, Grand Tour events, and criteriums.  He won at all levels numerous times over his career.  The Best Tour de France cyclist with 7 wins is Lance Armstrong followed by 5 wins by a group including the Merckx and Bernard "The Badger" Hinault who worked with/against Greg Lemond in 1986.  Lemond won the Tour three times.

Landis has raced the Tour five times and won it once.  2006 has been a great year for Landis.  I’ve read where he gets no motivation about what others (mostly Armstrong) have to say about him.  It appears his motivation is from within (must win before hip replacement).  It may be a bit early to compare him with Merckx, Lemond, Armstrong or any other multiple winners...

However what we witnessed was what a GREAT effort winning the 2006 Tour!  Landis overcame broken a bicycle in both the Prologue, and the first Time Trial and an 8-minute loss on a very hard mountain stage where he came back and kicked everyone’s butt the very next day to make up the "devastating" lost time.  Landis’ effort made Armstrong’s calculated efforts look less impressive on race by race basis.


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## awf170 (Jul 26, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> I say that next year we get Alpine Zone to sponser a team in the Tour. We head up, kick some ass and this will all be a mute point



Hmmm, I'll go for the hill climbing jersey.  Who wants to go for the yellow and the green.  I never actually road a road-bike before, but I'm in good shape and can hike mountains fast on my feet, so why not on a bike?  I think I'll start riding tomorrow so that will leave me with plenty of time for training.  I highly doubt that anyone else has higher qualifications.


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## andyzee (Jul 26, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I'll go for the hill climbing jersey. Who wants to go for the yellow and the green. I never actually road a road-bike before, but I'm in good shape and can hike mountains fast on my feet, so why not on a bike? I think I'll start riding tomorrow so that will leave me with plenty of time for training. I highly doubt that anyone else has higher qualifications.


 
I'm not too good on the hills and don't look good in Green, so guess I'll go for the yellow


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## awf170 (Jul 26, 2006)

andyzee said:
			
		

> I'm not too good on the hills and don't look good in Green, so guess I'll go for the yellow


But to get yellow you have to be good in the hills... you'll be one those smucks that do all the pulling for the group that no one ever heard of.  sound good?


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## andyzee (Jul 26, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> But to get yellow you have to be good in the hills... you'll be one those smucks that do all the pulling for the group that no one ever heard of. sound good?


 
I'll make up for it on the flats and time trials, I'm good there.


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

awf170 said:
			
		

> But to get yellow you have to be good in the hills... you'll be one those smucks that do all the pulling for the group that no one ever heard of. sound good?


 
I LOVE those guys.  When Matthias Kessler took a stage this year (after being caught out 50 yards from the line the day before) I was on cloud nine.  Then he did that grizzly endo over the guard rail but still finished the stage AND the Tour.  Long live the tough, selfless domestiques.  Jens Voight is another one.  Those guys rock!


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## andyzee (Jul 26, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> I LOVE those guys. When Matthias Kessler took a stage this year (after being caught out 50 yards from the line the day before) I was on cloud nine. Then he did that grizzly endo over the guard rail but still finished the stage AND the Tour. Long live the tough, selfless domestiques. Jens Voight is another one. Those guys rock!


 
Damn to say you're into the Tour is an understatement!  :beer: Me., I'm just into the Tour de Jesey as documented here  http://forums.alpinezone.com/8932-bike-log.html


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## ctenidae (Jul 26, 2006)

I'm willing to go for the Downhill Jersey. After tackling the hills in Queens over two Centuries, I don't like pedaling uphill much.


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## ctenidae (Jul 26, 2006)

Kids, be nice. Don't make me pull this car over and come back there. Don't think I won't turn this car around and go back home, and then you'll never get to see Disneyland.


(Edit: I'm not crazy, really. JimG baleeted the referrenced posts. Keep up the good work, ModMen!)


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## JimG. (Jul 26, 2006)

Bvibert has less of a stomach for the name calling than me. I was going to leave those posts and let everyone see what an unmoderated forum might look like.

I know a few of you don't appreciate us moderators or what we have to do sometimes, but I sure as hell don't want to waste my time reading that crap. If you guys want to act like 2 year olds and call each other out, fine, but don't expect us to sit back and watch.


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## bruno (Jul 26, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> Bvibert has less of a stomach for the name calling than me. I was going to leave those posts and let everyone see what an unmoderated forum might look like.
> 
> I know a few of you don't appreciate us moderators or what we have to do sometimes, but I sure as hell don't want to waste my time reading that crap. If you guys want to act like 2 year olds and call each other out, fine, but don't expect us to sit back and watch.



sorry man!:dunce:


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## awf170 (Jul 26, 2006)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> I'm willing to go for the Downhill Jersey. After tackling the hills in Queens over two Centuries, I don't like pedaling uphill much.



Errr.... You'll be one of reserves.  If Andy gets hit by a bus or something touring new jersey then you will be in.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jul 26, 2006)

bruno said:
			
		

> right on brah! i think ol' freeheel needs to ride his bike a little more. dude runs his mouf prolly more'n he rides his bike.
> 
> and i'd say this to yer face freeheel, you come off like a douche. you're prolly a good guy in real life but on da intraweb, you're a serious tool. jus' sayin'. . . .:-D



He's a real good guy. FHW doesn't need me to defend him, but I'm going to anyway. He is just the type who likes to stir the pot a little and see where things go, this tactic often leads to a spirited debate. I personally think it keeps things interesting. 

This isn't life and death, it's just people passing time talking about things they have a mutal interest in.

BTW: With a name like Burno you gotta be a good guy too.:beer:


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## Charlie Schuessler (Jul 26, 2006)

I just read on www.cyclingnews.com that Levi Liephiemer has agreed to ride for Discovery Channel Team for the 2007 Race Season....is 2nd time around with Bruyneel the ticket for Levi to Podium at the Tour?

We shall see...


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 26, 2006)

Charlie Schuessler said:
			
		

> I just read on www.cyclingnews.com that Levi Liephiemer has agreed to ride for Discovery Channel Team for the 2007 Race Season....is 2nd time around with Bruyneel the ticket for Levi to Podium at the Tour?
> 
> We shall see...


 
Here's drunkcyclist.com's take:



> Levi Leipheimer is to leave Gerolsteiner and ride for Discovery. Because what Discovery really needs right now is a guy who'll lose minutes in the time trail and get dropped on the mountain stages.


 
Hahahah!  Actually I'm a Levi fan.  (I think that was a bigger dig at Hincapie than it was at Levi).  I thought he'd at least podium this year - especially after Ullrich and Basso were out.  Whatever.

Hey Phonak becomes ishares next year - another American team in the Tour!  Within a few years TIAA-CREF will be there as well!

Thanks HPD - all is well here (I think).


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## skibum1321 (Jul 27, 2006)

Landis failed the drug test. He supposedly had high levels of testosterone during his miraculous mountain climb. I guess he couldn't take his failure the day before so he went to desperate measures. This sport is really filled with dopers and I'm not really surprised anymore.


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## JimG. (Jul 27, 2006)

ctenidae said:
			
		

> Kids, be nice. Don't make me pull this car over and come back there. Don't think I won't turn this car around and go back home, and then you'll never get to see Disneyland.
> 
> 
> (Edit: I'm not crazy, really. JimG baleeted the referrenced posts. Keep up the good work, ModMen!)



Actually, bvibert deleted them. They did bother me too. But I was going to leave those posts and actually hoped they would get worse to make a point about the value of having some moderation here.

I've already worked through this with FHW and he understands where I'm coming from. Just wanted to mention to bruno that I don't make public posts like that one often and that I appreciate his public apology. 

I felt us mods were taking unnecessary hits yesterday in this thread and it really bothered me. 

Sorry about the hijack here, carry on!


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## Greg (Jul 27, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> I felt us mods were taking unnecessary hits yesterday in this thread and it really bothered me.


You (we) were. Sometimes folks don't truly appreciate or understand the dedication and time the mods have devoted here. I would like to refer everyone to this thread:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/6902-note-about-our-moderators.html


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 27, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Landis failed the drug test. He supposedly had high levels of testosterone during his miraculous mountain climb. I guess he couldn't take his failure the day before so he went to desperate measures.


Easy.  His "A" Sample tested positive. 

"A positive "A" sample is only the first step in the process and does not constitute proof of any rider's use of performance-enhancing substances."

Now I'm not sayin' that his "B" won't be dirty too - probably will- but your statement begins with a false assertion from which it immediately descends into groundless assumption and innuendo.

Isn't there _anything_ to be said for keeping your trap closed until all the evidence is in?



> This sport is really filled with dopers and I'm not really surprised anymore.


 
Honestly dude, what you know about "this sport" would fit on the head of a pin.

Apologies to JimG:  This Landis thing has me pissed-off though (I don't know at whom or at what  - everybody and everything I guess. And nobody.  Uuuuuuggghhh!)  and then to have read that ignorant shit is just too much!


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## bruno (Jul 27, 2006)

skibum1321 said:
			
		

> Landis failed the drug test. He supposedly had high levels of testosterone during his miraculous mountain climb. I guess he couldn't take his failure the day before so he went to desperate measures. This sport is really filled with dopers and I'm not really surprised anymore.



well-put. even ol' floyd's moms is expressin' a li'l doubt about her boy! sheesh lady!:angry: 

but yeah, he did it.:flag:  :lol: :smash: :uzi:


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## JimG. (Jul 27, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> Apologies to JimG:  This Landis thing has me pissed-off though (I don't know at whom or at what  - everybody and everything I guess. And nobody.  Uuuuuuggghhh!)  and then to have read that ignorant shit is just too much!



Dude, take a deep breath and relax. I don't think skibum was trying to condemn the guy and I think his general statement sums up how alot of people feel about cycling. You have to admit, the fact that riders were suspended before the race even started is not a great comment on the sport. This doesn't help.

According to the rules, Landis isn't guilty unless the back up sample tests positive. His amazing performance in the 17th stage does seem a little too good to be true though. You yourself said it will probably test positive but I'm assuming you think it's because the testing agencies are anti-American and that Landis is clean. I think you're in the vast minority there.

According to the law, Barry Bonds has not been proven guilty of using steroids either. Does anyone believe he didn't (doesn't)?


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## freeheelwilly (Jul 27, 2006)

JimG. said:
			
		

> You yourself said it will probably test positive but I'm assuming you think it's because the testing agencies are anti-American and that Landis is clean.


That's not it at all. I have no idea whether he was "clean" but if I was a betting man, with the "A" already dirty - I'd bet not.

BTW, cycling has a more VISABLE doping problem because of how serious they take it and how stringently and frequently they test. One positive test in cycling -2 year suspension. Second positive it's either 8 years or a lifetime ban (functional equivalence there anyway).

What is it in the NFL? One failed test = a 2 game suspension. Two fails and you get a few more games. Lifetime bans are unheard of. Same with baseball who actively encouraged the shit until recently.

Look at the Landis deal: His "A" is dirty and he's suspended by his team!

I feel bad for Floyd - not because I think he's falsely accused but because I think he probably isn't. *But he's sure gonna get the benefit of all my doubts.* Why not yours? The guy's been squeaky clean up to this point in his career with never a hint of wrongdoing. He's also a very nice guy. Both of those circumstances distinguish him from Barry Bonds who's an ass and who has always operated in a cloud of suspicion within a sport that didn't take doping seriously.


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## skibum1321 (Jul 27, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> I feel bad for Floyd - not because I think he's falsely accused but because I think he probably isn't. *But he's sure gonna get the benefit of all my doubts.* Why not yours? The guy's been squeaky clean up to this point in his career with never a hint of wrongdoing. He's also a very nice guy. Both of those circumstances distinguish him from Barry Bonds who's an ass and who has always operated in a cloud of suspicion within a sport that didn't take doping seriously.


How do you know that Floyd has been squeaky clean? He just has never tested positive for it before. That could mean that he was taking stuff that was not tested for or he found another way around it. Just saying...

I never said that cycling was worse than other sports in terms of doping, but you have to admit that there are a good number of cyclists that have been caught. Sure, they may have stringent drug testing policies, but you still have to take the drugs to fail the test.

I wasn't reporting anything that hasn't been all over the news anyway. And I assume that it is very rare that the A tests positive but the B doesn't.

P.S. Is it even possible for you to argue a point without taking personal shots at people?


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## JimG. (Jul 27, 2006)

freeheelwilly said:
			
		

> That's not it at all.  I have no idea whether he was "clean" but if I was a betting man, with the "A" already dirty - I'd bet not.
> 
> BTW, cycling has a more VISABLE doping problem because of how serious they take it and how stringently and frequently they test.  One positive test in cycling -2 year suspension.  Second positive it's either 8 years or a  lifetime ban (functional equivalence there anyway).
> 
> ...



You know the sport alot better than me...I don't have enough knowledge to be able to give the benefit of the doubt. As a casual observer, it seems alot of riders are doping.

I agree the sport uses Olympic standards to test for drugs unlike American sports where the "your not guilty unless you get caught" standard applies. That is a good thing and I applaud them for it. Yet even though the riders know this, quite a few of them seem to turn up dirty. The fiasco at the start of this tour only seems to reinforce the dirty image.

I'd be willing to bet there's no greater percentage of cheaters in cycling than any American sport and probably much less of one due to the stringent testing standard. But the specter of steroids seems to dominate every important race. Maybe it's poor marketing. But that's the image the casual, relatively uninformed observer like me sees.

And that explains why folks like me assume he's doping. You're right, it's probably unfair. And because I'm a casual observer, I'm not aware of Landis' clean past. I didn't even know his name until about a week ago. There are alot of folks like me too. And it doesn't help when the media makes it sound like even his Mom is suspicious.


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## bruno (Jul 27, 2006)

i feel now that i need to come clean. last night, had i been tested, i would have been positive for IPA. and tonight that will be the case as well. IPA is my post-ride recovery regimen. ok, i feel better now. i just didn't want you guys to hear it from someone else.

thanks.:flag: :beer:


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## andyzee (Jul 28, 2006)

bruno said:
			
		

> i feel now that i need to come clean. last night, had i been tested, i would have been positive for IPA. and tonight that will be the case as well. IPA is my post-ride recovery regimen. ok, i feel better now. i just didn't want you huys to hear it from someone else.
> 
> thanks.:flag: :beer:


 
I knew it! I efin knew it! You bastid, bringing shame to this forum!:-x


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## bruno (Jul 31, 2006)

landis drank too much and that explains it. tyler hamilton had a feckin "dead twin fetus" and swore on his dog's soul that he was clean, justin gatlin had his legs massaged by an enemy and they rubbed illegal stuff into his muscles. these are all plausible explanations. why do people doubt? buncha haters. . .:beer: :razz: :dunce: :idea: :-o :argue:


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## ctenidae (Jul 31, 2006)

Tested positive for IPA. Clever.


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