# Killington:  What was it?  What Does POWDR Want it to Be?  You?



## thetrailboss (Aug 5, 2009)

So here is a discussion topic: Killington's identity. What WAS it during its height in the SKI years? What do you think POWDR wants it to be? What do YOU THINK it should be? 

From what I have read, under SKI Killington was the King of Superlatives--longest season, most terrain, most innovations, most promotions, largest snowmaking system, most skiers and riders, best operations, best party scene, etc. One of the things that it was not was "most expensive." From what I have seen and heard, Pres was all about delivering skiing to as many people as he could, and getting as many hooked as he could. It was not about being exclusive. They ran midweek promotions and had the GLM skis. Their business was the ski business--when the lifts turned, they made money. Period. That was what they wanted. They were also not into real estate. 

POWDR seems to want to get back to making Killington "what it was," or what they conceived it to be. Their pitch seems to be a narrower market: the same market that Okemo, Loon, Bretton Woods, and maybe even Stowe are pitching to--those who have enough disposable income to buy real estate. POWDR wants to do more with less--more revenue with less skiers and riders because in their book people want more room on the slopes and to be honest they can save money and infrastructure by having to host fewer skiers. They want to rebrand Killington to "the best," not necessarily "the beast." 

I think that the SKI vision was what built Killington and what most people still associate with Killington. It took years for Killington to break down to what it was right before POWDR bought it. It really corroded. Killington, if it does not have the longest season, or the most snowmaking, or the most open terrain, or the most innovation in the industry is just another ski area. Specifically, it is a ski area that is not a "ski resort" because it has no village. It is an area that has wide groomers that one can find elsewhere. Killington was intended to be a ski area and not necessarily a resort, in the modern sense. Pres spent more energy and money on skiing infrastructure rather than building parking garages, shopping plazas, or fancy restaurants. His focal point was the sport and he made it work as a business. He built it, they came. Now I am not so sure....


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## 2knees (Aug 5, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> What WAS it .



I believe it was an old wooden ship.....


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## Newpylong (Aug 5, 2009)

For me, It was a place so big you never had to ski the same run twice.


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## thorski (Aug 5, 2009)

Longest season, Best Nightlife.


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## RootDKJ (Aug 5, 2009)




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## SpinmasterK (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> So here is a discussion topic: Killington's identity. What WAS it during its height in the SKI years? What do you think POWDR wants it to be? What do YOU THINK it should be?
> 
> From what I have read, under SKI Killington was the King of Superlatives--longest season, most terrain, most innovations, most promotions, largest snowmaking system, most skiers and riders, best operations, best party scene, etc. One of the things that it was not was "most expensive." From what I have seen and heard, Pres was all about delivering skiing to as many people as he could, and getting as many hooked as he could. It was not about being exclusive. They ran midweek promotions and had the GLM skis. Their business was the ski business--when the lifts turned, they made money. Period. That was what they wanted. They were also not into real estate.
> 
> ...




I look forward to seeing what folks think about Killington, what it was, what it is and what they feel the future holds. I have been at Killington for almost five years and have seen quite a few changes. However, I am really excited about the direction that we - Killington/Pico Ski Resort Partners - are taking heading into the 2009-10 season, including a commitment to a longer season by opening as early as possible. More to follow ...


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## SkiDork (Aug 6, 2009)

SpinmasterK - early as possible is less important than late as possible...


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## Grassi21 (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> I believe it was an old wooden ship.....



Nice try Pat.  But I would be surprised if POWDR was concerned about the lack of an old wooden ship.


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## mondeo (Aug 6, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


>


 Why does he stick his tongue out before wiping his face off?

uke:


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 6, 2009)

When I was younger I use to love the place, it was hugh, great terrain, night life, lodging. With Hunter as my home base I was used to crowds so that didn't bother me at the time. As I ventured north of Rutland I realized there where better choices for me.

I'm not quite sure why people love to hate it. It seems as though people who are K loyalist like to put it down. For sure they love to talk about it. Even with there own Kzone to bitch and complain on they still feel the need to branch out to other ski forums to bitch and complain there.


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## SkiDork (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> When I was younger I use to love the place, it was hugh, great terrain, night life, lodging. With Hunter as my home base I was used to crowds so that didn't bother me at the time. As I ventured north of Rutland I realized there where better choices for me.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why people love to hate it. It seems as though people who are K loyalist like to put it down. For sure they love to talk about it. Even with there own Kzone to bitch and complain on they still feel the need to branch out to other ski forums to bitch and complain there.



Have you read about all the negative stuff POWDR has done?


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## thorski (Aug 6, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> SpinmasterK - early as possible is less important than late as possible...



True that, but opening early is still important.
Closing on a Saturday is pretty lame as well.


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## 2knees (Aug 6, 2009)

Grassi21 said:


> Nice try Pat.  But I would be surprised if POWDR was concerned about the lack of an old wooden ship.



you stay classy chris grassi


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

thorski said:


> Closing on a Saturday is pretty lame as well.



I didn't like this either.  It sent the wrong message to the skiers (customer).  The issue was that the payroll week started and ended on a Saturday, and that having folks work on a Sunday would screw it up.  Now in the Pres Smith days, they'd figure something out to get around that.  Instead, the unintended message that was sent was, "well, our internal needs are more important than opening and delivering the product to the consumer."


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## Grassi21 (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> you stay classy chris grassi



I ate ribs for lunch...


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## Highway Star (Aug 6, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> I look forward to seeing what folks think about Killington, what it was, what it is and what they feel the future holds. I have been at Killington for almost five years and have seen quite a few changes. However, I am really excited about the direction that we - Killington/Pico Ski Resort Partners - are taking heading into the 2009-10 season,* including a commitment to a longer season by opening as early as possible.* More to follow ...



Good to hear, but is there a new strategy that will allow this goal to be achived?  With the K-1 top to bottom opening, we've seen several years where weather didn't allow an opening until mid-late November.  In a worst case senario, opening could be delayed past the Thanksgiving holiday.   Any real changes for this year?


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> When I was younger I use to love the place, it was hugh, great terrain, night life, lodging. With Hunter as my home base I was used to crowds so that didn't bother me at the time. As I ventured north of Rutland I realized there where better choices for me.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why people love to hate it. It seems as though people who are K loyalist like to put it down. For sure they love to talk about it. Even with there own Kzone to bitch and complain on they still feel the need to branch out to other ski forums to bitch and complain there.



Nobody was bitching 5 years ago, or 15 years ago, or even 50 years ago for that matter. Killington was the best, the biggest, the longest, the craziest, the partiest, etc....

They are bitching now because all of that has been taken away in the name of trying to make a few extra bucks.

We're not bitching at Killington. We're bitching at Powdr and Nyberg.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Good to hear, but is there a new strategy that will allow this goal to be achived?  With the K-1 top to bottom opening, we've seen several years where weather didn't allow an opening until mid-late November.  In a worst case senario, opening could be delayed past the Thanksgiving holiday.   Any real changes for this year?



The Highway Star Poma/Surface Lift up Upper Cascade to the top of K-1 is not in operation at this time, if that is what you are getting at.


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## Bubbartzky (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I didn't like this either.  It sent the wrong message to the skiers (customer).  The issue was that the payroll week started and ended on a Saturday, and that having folks work on a Sunday would screw it up.  Now in the Pres Smith days, they'd figure something out to get around that.  Instead, the unintended message that was sent was, "well, our internal needs are more important than opening and delivering the product to the consumer."



And that right there is the problem.  This is a company run by financial people, folks who generally run by the numbers not recognizing the customer side of the decision. Short term numbers are more important than long term impact. "Brand" is not a word in the vocabulary.  It appears to be an inwardly looking, inwardly driven organization.  To be fair, they're learning, but they've caused themselves a lot of problems that will take quite a while to overcome.

Now, what should Killington be?  It should return to what it was before the financial disaster of the 10 years or so leading up to Powdr's acquisition.  It has to return to being all about superlatives.  It has to commit to blowing enough snow to remain open until the Memorial Day weekend by putting the Triathlon back on its schedule. It has to re-create the brand it owned for 40 years.  It has to be about skiing first, and it has to be FOR the skier first and foremost.  Without being about superlatives, it's just another New England ski area, albeit bigger, but it will be competing on everyone else's turf, and playing on someone else's field is never a great idea.


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## Highway Star (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> The Highway Star Poma/Surface Lift up Upper Cascade to the top of K-1 is not in operation at this time, if that is what you are getting at.



What they need is a triple on middle-upper Downdraft, or a midstation on the K-1....that would rule.


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## mondeo (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I didn't like this either. It sent the wrong message to the skiers (customer). The issue was that the payroll week started and ended on a Saturday, and that having folks work on a Sunday would screw it up. Now in the Pres Smith days, they'd figure something out to get around that. Instead, the unintended message that was sent was, "well, our internal needs are more important than opening and delivering the product to the consumer."


I'm guessing it was actually fairly smart. The big thing is being able to market opening Nov. 2, closing May 2. A full (minus 10 days after Nov. 2) 6 month season, and into May. People may gripe about the Sunday opening/Saturday closing, but it probably isn't going to have any real impact on ticket sales. So the question is would being open one more day offset the additional costs of having an additional payroll period?

What I want to know is did they take the month off in May as an opportunity to rejigger their payroll schedule? It seems pretty stupid to me to have a seasonal business that operates mostly on the weekends have their payroll schedule set up that way. New business week starts Thursday or something like that.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 6, 2009)

Admittingly, K was the meca of skiing for me while in college (mid 80's) with good terrain and one kick ass party. Then my senior year we ventured to Smuggs where I immediatley fell in love with the place and ended up living there for 4 years. Something about Smuugs/Stowe, the Notch and just the vibe really got my attention and I knew it was the place for me. 

Now it's all aboput my little Greek Peak, WF and Gore.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 6, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> Have you read about all the negative stuff POWDR has done?





JerseyJoey said:


> Nobody was bitching 5 years ago, or 15 years ago, or even 50 years ago for that matter. .



If your girlfriend was making you miserable for 5 years would you break up with her or stick it out while hoping things get better?

I'm a WF guy, there have been WF haters on this board. They state they don't like it because of this and that and that *they are not going back *they will go elsewhere. 

That's what I don't get about you guys. As a devout won'tist it is against my belief system to give anyone a hard time on forums. I'm just trying to understand why you guys stay and complain instead of going somewhere else.


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## SkiDork (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> If your girlfriend was making you miserable for 5 years would you break up with her or stick it out while hoping things get better?
> 
> I'm a WF guy, there have been WF haters on this board. They state they don't like it because of this and that and that *they are not going back *they will go elsewhere.
> 
> That's what I don't get about you guys. As a devout won'tist it is against my belief system to give anyone a hard time on forums. I'm just trying to understand why you guys stay and complain instead of going somewhere else.



Personally, my reasons for staying are:

1) Own real estate there

2) Member of the ski club and love the vibe there, along with the kids competitions

3) Love to hang out with the KZone crew, doing parties and bbq's in the spring etc.

4) Love the actual mountain, size, variety etc.

Still would love to see the old Killington return, so I keep up the pressure vocalization with hopes that POWDR comes around.


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> If your girlfriend was making you miserable for 5 years would you break up with her or stick it out while hoping things get better?
> 
> I'm a WF guy, there have been WF haters on this board. They state they don't like it because of this and that and that *they are not going back *they will go elsewhere.
> 
> That's what I don't get about you guys. As a devout won'tist it is against my belief system to give anyone a hard time on forums. I'm just trying to understand why you guys stay and complain instead of going somewhere else.



Personally, my reasons for staying are:

1) Own real estate there

2) Member of the ski club and love the vibe there, along with the kids competitions

3) Love to hang out with the KZone crew, doing parties and bbq's in the spring etc.

4) Love the actual mountain, size, variety etc.

Still would love to see the old Killington return, so I keep up the pressure vocalization with hopes that POWDR comes around.


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## millerm277 (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I'm a WF guy, there have been WF haters on this board. They state they don't like it because of this and that and that *they are not going back *they will go elsewhere.
> 
> That's what I don't get about you guys. As a devout won'tist it is against my belief system to give anyone a hard time on forums. I'm just trying to understand why you guys stay and complain instead of going somewhere else.



They hate Whiteface, the whole place, the difference here, is that none of the people complaining hate Killington. Actually, I'd say almost every one of them, loves Killington itself. Lots of terrain, good snow, etc....we don't like/hate the people who own/run it and make decisions that run counter to what would be good for the mountain in our minds. That is different than disliking the mountain...

Using someone else's analogy, it isn't your girlfriend is making you miserable for 5 years. It's, your girlfriend is amazing, except for this one giant flaw (or a couple of them) that she could fix easily, and then be perfect, but currently, they take away from how amazing everything else about her is, in your mind.


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## mister moose (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> If your girlfriend was making you miserable for 5 years would you break up with her or stick it out while hoping things get better?
> 
> I'm a WF guy, there have been WF haters on this board. They state they don't like it because of this and that and that *they are not going back *they will go elsewhere.
> 
> That's what I don't get about you guys. As a devout won'tist it is against my belief system to give anyone a hard time on forums. I'm just trying to understand why you guys stay and complain instead of going somewhere else.



It's because the GF isn't making us miserable.  She just got on this health food kick in the last 3 years, hired a new fitness/diet consultant, and is feeding me tasteless organic this, low fat that, and tofu cheesecake.  However, she is my best friend, we share many interests, she challenges me intellectually, she's cute, and a great lover.

I'm hoping I can talk her out of this seaweed and rice diet, or at least let her eat it while I have a steak.  I'm trying to keep a long term perspective, but it is hard some days.  And yes, I bitch about the food a lot, to anyone who asks.  Food is important to me.

How's that comparison?  

There is more to Killington than just POWDR.  There is the proximity, terain, snowfall, size, access road bars, restaurants, and in my opinion, the best ski shop selection in the East.  There is the people I know and the ski house community.  It takes time to erode all that.

If Killington's new direction sat well with the town, and their numbers weren't slipping, I think we'd have less to say.  But that is not the case.  By many measurements, traffic is down and dissatisfaction is up.  If this next winter is poorer than average snowfall and the economy is still flat, it will be a cold winter indeed.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> I didn't like this either.  It sent the wrong message to the skiers (customer).  The issue was that the payroll week started and ended on a Saturday, and that having folks work on a Sunday would screw it up.  Now in the Pres Smith days, they'd figure something out to get around that.  Instead, the unintended message that was sent was, "well, our internal needs are more important than opening and delivering the product to the consumer."



As a person who's managed payroll in several positions, having the financial week close on a Saturday in a seasonal business was bad business anyways.  By having the week end on a Friday, it's far easier for managers to eliminate over time than having it end on a Saturday.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 6, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> SpinmasterK - early as possible is less important than late as possible...



I disagree...I am jonsing for skiing alot more in October than May


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## RootDKJ (Aug 6, 2009)

Bubbartzky said:


> And that right there is the problem.  This is a company run by financial people, folks who generally run by the numbers not recognizing the customer side of the decision. Short term numbers are more important than long term impact.



My company makes this mistake all the time.  Then three years down the road, somebody will eventually ask why we made the wrong decision and try to attribute blame on somebody else.  



Bubbartzky said:


> Now, what should Killington be?  It should return to what it was before the financial disaster of the 10 years or so leading up to Powdr's acquisition.  It has to return to being all about superlatives.  It has to commit to blowing enough snow to remain open until the Memorial Day weekend by putting the Triathlon back on its schedule. It has to re-create the brand it owned for 40 years.  It has to be about skiing first, and it has to be FOR the skier first and foremost.  Without being about superlatives, it's just another New England ski area, albeit bigger, but it will be competing on everyone else's turf, and playing on someone else's field is never a great idea.



There's some merit to this.  I was talking to my dad while on vacation, and our trips to Vermont when I was a child.  Apparently, we went on trips to Stratton, Okemo and Killington, but I only ever remember going to Killington.  

8 years ago, once I reached a point of financial stability in my life, and I started skiing again, my first instinct was to go to what I had the most vivid memories of....skiing at Killington.  Over the past 8 seasons, I've made 4 to 12 day trips up there...more than once a season, and exclusively skiing Killington because I remember it to be "The Best" from when I was a kid.

Last season, I went somewhere else in Vermont for the "first time" (Stratton).  I knew that the mid-mountain deck looked really familiar, but couldn't figure out why until last week when my dad showed me some old photos from the '80's.  I realized, while there only for one day, that Killington is "just another New England ski area, albeit bigger".

This season, I don't really plan on going back to Killington.  I'm going to see what the other VT areas have to offer me.


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## RootDKJ (Aug 6, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I disagree...I am jonsing for skiing alot more in October than May


+1


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 6, 2009)

Dork, Joey, Mill and Moose, I hope things work out for you guys. You guys who own real estate there certainly have  $$$ reason that can't just be walked away from so easily. That's why alot of people stay married when things go bad instead of getting a divorce.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 6, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I disagree...I am jonsing for skiing alot more in October than May



-1 - I like to ski the WROD as much as anyone, but I'd still rather have as late a closing as possible. Alot more terrain is open and skiing in da sun in short sleeves is the bomb.


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## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> When I was younger I use to love the place, it was hugh, great terrain, night life, lodging. With Hunter as my home base I was used to crowds so that didn't bother me at the time. As I ventured north of Rutland I realized there where better choices for me.
> 
> I'm not quite sure why people love to hate it. It seems as though people who are K loyalist like to put it down. For sure they love to talk about it. Even with there own Kzone to bitch and complain on they still feel the need to branch out to other ski forums to bitch and complain there.



Get a clue homey. The reason people voice opinions regarding Killington is because it does have a loyal following. Listen, like others before, Killington will be here when Powdr is gone, and so will a lot of those who "bitch".

Sorry if you do not have a mountain that you feel connected to, like a lot of us who have been at K for years. 

Are you just trying to suck up for Brownie points because you saw Tom posted in this thread? Him being here for 5 years should allow him to understand where the frustration comes in.

How pathetic is that Sundown can now claim a better mogul party than K? Does Powdr like being the punching bag of the industry?


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Dork, Joey, Mill and Moose, I hope things work out for you guys. You guys who own real estate there certainly have  $$$ reason that can't just be walked away from so easily. That's why alot of people stay married when things go bad instead of getting a divorce.



You may be missing a piece of what we're saying here (or you may not be missing it, idk). 

I don't want to make another mountain my home. Killington itself has everything I look for in a mountain ski wise, and then some. It has bumps, trees, steep steeps, long cruisers, pretty much some of everything I like. I want Killington to be my home mountain for the rest of my life, and hopefully my kids will as well. They love the place more than anything. They love the skiing, the diversity, the happy hour scene, the kids programs, and all the new friends they've made there, and they're only 6 and 5 years old. (Yes, I did say happy hour. They get to play air hockey and pool with Daddy and Mommy at Jax after a hard days skiing). They love Killington. They love the fact that they have a place to go to whenever they want to ski.

Nobody here is bad mouthing Killington. It's the owners that are getting the harsh treatment. They have f'ed the place up and killed the vibe. They have pissed off pretty much everybody. All they had to do was come in and put K bcak to the way she was. Trust me, nobody would be bitching.


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## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

jerseyjoey said:


> you may be missing a piece of what we're saying here (or you may not be missing it, idk).
> 
> I don't want to make another mountain my home. Killington itself has everything i look for in a mountain ski wise, and then some. It has bumps, trees, steep steeps, long cruisers, pretty much some of everything i like. I want killington to be my home mountain for the rest of my life, and hopefully my kids will as well. They love the place more than anything. They love the skiing, the diversity, the happy hour scene, the kids programs, and all the new friends they've made there, and they're only 6 and 5 years old. (yes, i did say happy hour. They get to play air hockey and pool with daddy and mommy at jax after a hard days skiing). They love killington. They love the fact that they have a place to go to whenever they want to ski.
> 
> Nobody here is bad mouthing killington. It's the owners that are getting the harsh treatment. They have f'ed the place up and killed the vibe. They have pissed off pretty much everybody. All they had to do was come in and put k bcak to the way she was. Trust me, nobody would be bitching.



+1918


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 6, 2009)

icedtea said:


> Get a clue homey. The reason people voice opinions regarding Killington is because it does have a loyal following. Listen, like others before, Killington will be here when Powdr is gone, and so will a lot of those who "bitch".
> 
> Sorry if you do not have a mountain that you feel connected to, like a lot of us who have been at K for years.
> 
> ...



I think you have mixed up with someone else.

I'm very connected to Whiteface and I don't know who Tom is. I have not had the pleasure of skiing with the mogul crew at Sundown, but I hope to make their bump contest in March.

I hope you have a great season at Killington.


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## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I think you have mixed up with someone else.
> 
> I'm very connected to Whiteface and I don't know who Tom is. I have not had the pleasure of skiing with the mogul crew at Sundown, but I hope to make their bump contest in March.
> 
> I hope you have a great season at Killington.




So, if new ownership at WF started seriously messing with what historically made that your choice in a mountain, you would not voice your displeasure? Just pick up and move?

Thanks I have a great season every year, same to you.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

What was it?  Highly overrated

What is it under Pwdr? Highly overrated for fewer skiers willing to pay more money

What do I want it to be?

I'd like for it to do a million plus skier visits again to draw some of the traffic away from the many mountains in the Northeast that are far superior to it.  :razz:


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## 2knees (Aug 6, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> What was it?  Highly overrated
> 
> What is it under Pwdr? Highly overrated for fewer skiers willing to pay more money
> 
> ...




watch out or iced teabag, the lilly white spoon fed gangsta from jersey might lay a verbal beatdown on you too.  and you dont want that.


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## WWF-VT (Aug 6, 2009)

15-20 years ago skiing at Killington was a big deal.  I grew up in CT and Killington was the destination for ski weekends with a group of friends.  Back then the place seemed huge and you could deal with the crowds, endless traversing, lift lines and knuckleheads.  Subsequently moved to Boston and sampled many more mountains in Vermont and New Hampshire.  “The Beast” and singles/party scene reputation is no longer an attraction to a suburban family with kids and we rarely hear people talking about family trips to Killington.  Most families I speak to go to Stowe, Sugarbush, Sunday River, Okemo and Loon.


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> watch out or iced teabag, the lilly white spoon fed gangsta from jersey might lay a verbal beatdown on you too.  and you dont want that.



1) He's not a teabag (although I'm sure he has engaged in that type of behavior before)

2) He's not lilly white (lives down the shore-very tan)

3) He is not spoon fed (not to the mouth anyway, can't comment on the nose)

4) He verbally beats down no one (all he is saying, is give peace a chance)


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## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> watch out or iced teabag, the lilly white spoon fed gangsta from jersey might lay a verbal beatdown on you too.  and you dont want that.



tough guy there 2knees? some people need to remove their stick from their asses...
 wow, what is wrong with someone really caring about a mountain?

i am so glad your clairvoyance has allowed you to know exactly who i am.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

OK folks...let's keep the discussion focused on Killington.


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## 2knees (Aug 6, 2009)

icedtea said:


> tough guy there 2knees? some people need to remove their stick from their asses...
> wow, what is wrong with someone really caring about a mountain?
> 
> i am so glad your clairvoyance has allowed you to know exactly who i am.



now i'm the tough guy.  

Calling HPD a homey, brown noser and unconnected to a mountain was very humorous.  Sorry if you are one of those who likes to hand it out but cant take some shit back.  

I'll put the kiddie gloves back on from now on.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> OK folks...let's keep the discussion focused on Killington.



times 2..


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## SkiDork (Aug 6, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I disagree...I am jonsing for skiing alot more in October than May



Thats cause you ski at Blue.  May is impossible down there.


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## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> now i'm the tough guy.
> 
> Calling HPD a homey, brown noser and unconnected to a mountain was very humorous.  Sorry if you are one of those who likes to hand it out but cant take some shit back.
> 
> I'll put the kiddie gloves back on from now on.




homey is derisive? i was asking him a question regarding his motivation for such a negative post immediately after Tom posted, and I am shocked that those that are connected to a mountain would not want to voice their frustrations and comments to improve the situation. 

and yea you are the tough guy huh??


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

[Clears throat]

Back to talk about Killington.


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> [Clears throat]
> 
> Back to talk about Killington.



you should pop a lozenge for that scratchy throat...


----------



## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 6, 2009)

icedtea said:


> So, if new ownership at WF started seriously messing with what historically made that your choice in a mountain, you would not voice your displeasure? Just pick up and move?
> 
> .




That's a fair question, after thinking about it I'd have to say I would not just pick up and move. I'm too invested in the area finanically and emotionally. I'd have to leave too many friends behind also.

I guess what got me thinking about it is the number of threads by K loyalists with nothing but complaints. There just seems to be a real negative vibe. 

I'm glad I posted what I did cause I think I'm starting to get the idea. You guys love the place so much it hurts that you see it being led astray.

BTW-we tax payers in NY own WF so there can never be new ownership unless the NYS Constitution changes. ;-)


----------



## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

Gotcha, sorry...

The "bitching" seems to be working a bit, as Powdr seems to be listening and improving their customer relations.

They did open earlier than expected and slowly are re-extending the season. One big thing they needs to address this season is RECOVERY! Also, either just cancel the BMMC or bring it back to its glory. Last season's debacle should be addressed.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

I guess I've never been that attached to an area to be so vocal as many here are.  The only way I would be is if I owned real estate there.  

Stowe was my home mountain for years.  If I ever felt like they 'screwed me' I would've just skied Sugarbush instead.  

The thing I find most interesting is that the vast majority of people complaining from Killington are from NJ/NY/CT.   I guess I can see that because it really is a haul to get to the better areas in Northern Vt.  For a Boston area skier, Sugarbush, Stowe, Sunday River etc are only about a half hour to forty five minute longer drive.  Much easier to switch gears.  

Which goes to show that Boston > NY    Better sports teams and better access to skiing :razz:


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 6, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Which goes to show that Boston > NY    Better sports teams and better access to skiing :razz:



yeah, if you like the redsox and someday bigger


----------



## thorski (Aug 6, 2009)

Far more likely to wake up with a girl from Brazil, England, Poland, etc, etc.  at K  than any other Mountain.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> yeah, if you like the redsox and someday bigger



or if you do feel like skiing Killington, Stowe, Sugarbush, Jay, Tuckermans, Burke, Mad River; pretty much every place good in New England, the ride is under 4 hours and in most cases closer to 3!


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 6, 2009)

thorski said:


> Far more likely to wake up with a girl from Brazil, England, Poland, etc, etc.  at K  than any other Mountain.



Or a girl from Jersey:beer:


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 6, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> or if you do feel like skiing Killington, Stowe, Sugarbush, Jay, Tuckermans, Burke, Mad River; pretty much every place good in New England, the ride is under 4 hours and in most cases closer to 3!



Boston owns NYC for skiing...but Allentown owns Tampa Florida..what what..


----------



## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Boston owns NYC for skiing...but Allentown owns Tampa Florida..what what..




NYC has much, much HOTTER women though than Boston.


----------



## 2knees (Aug 6, 2009)

icedtea said:


> homey is derisive? i was asking him a question regarding his motivation for such a negative post immediately after Tom posted, and I am shocked that those that are connected to a mountain would not want to voice their frustrations and comments to improve the situation.
> 
> and yea you are the tough guy huh??




that's bullshit, but anyway you want to justify your condescending post, it doesnt matter to me.

yes, i'm a tough guy..... 

you sound like a juiced up teenager.  whatcha gonna do, challenge me to a fight?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 6, 2009)

ENOUGH.  Killington discussion.  No more squabbles over who has the biggest [insert whatever].


----------



## thorski (Aug 6, 2009)

Look out IcedTea @knees wants to go Berserker on yer ass.
Ct. beats NY and Boston for good looking girls for the record.
This is especially true in K-town.


----------



## RootDKJ (Aug 6, 2009)

icedtea said:


> How pathetic is that Sundown can now claim a better mogul party than K? Does Powdr like being the punching bag of the industry?



I'd be embarrassed.  On a side note, I can't wait to go to one of the Sundown parties this season.


RootDKJ said:


>


I made some more popcorn for everyone...Grassi, can you pass me another beer?


----------



## 2knees (Aug 6, 2009)

thorski said:


> Look out IcedTea @knees wants to go Berserker on yer ass.




hardly, i was getting the feeling it was the other way around.


----------



## 2knees (Aug 6, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> ENOUGH.  Killington discussion.  No more squabbles over who has the biggest [insert whatever].



I'll impose a self banishment for myself on any killington related thread.


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 6, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I'd be embarrassed.  On a side note, I can't wait to go to one of the Sundown parties this season.
> 
> I made some more popcorn for everyone...Grassi, can you pass me another beer?



I got you homey.....  :-o


----------



## Grassi21 (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> I'll impose a self banishment for myself on any killington related thread.



please also stay out of the bike miscellaneous forum as well.  no one over there likes you.


----------



## RootDKJ (Aug 6, 2009)

Grassi21 said:


> please also stay out of the bike miscellaneous forum as well.  no one over there likes you.


WTF? :lol:


----------



## thorski (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> I'll impose a self banishment for myself on any killington related thread.



Now why would you do that? You ski killington don't you? Or is it the fear of a guy in the top 30?


----------



## icedtea (Aug 6, 2009)

2knees said:


> that's bullshit, but anyway you want to justify your condescending post, it doesnt matter to me.
> 
> yes, i'm a tough guy.....
> 
> you sound like a juiced up teenager.  whatcha gonna do, challenge me to a fight?




hahaha, whatever man, you are the most condescending person in this thread. get over yourself.. 

On another note... as pointed out by others...there are many individuals who "love" Killington and it seems there are also a bunch others that love to "hate" on those who "love" Killington.

Where does this "chip" come from?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm not taking sides on who is right or who is wrong.  I will say flat out ANY post in this thread from this point forward that even remotely resembles an insult will be deleted.


----------



## SpinmasterK (Aug 6, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> SpinmasterK - early as possible is less important than late as possible...



Point well taken.


----------



## thorski (Aug 6, 2009)

So Killington also has Killington after dark which is a pretty good show.  Slado has a pretty cool gig up there.
Do other Mountains have an equivalent T.V. show?


----------



## faceplant (Aug 6, 2009)

what it was- 
some of my experiences,and i mean only some- skied there 1st time back in the 60s, next day at Pico
even then i could feel pico had nicer laid back vibe- matter of fact i still love the pike
ok your right- good bar scene on the road- but theres no snow in a bar is there
Go back some years later on Thanksgving week for some of that famous early season- but only 1 trail was opened <so it seemed anyways> 
WROD w old firehose surface snowguns blastin my face- Fog bank rolls in, cant see sh*t- knuckleheads crawlin up my back- but K still charged full price of course- bailed out 
....so i'm at a loss where all this talk about 'old time' Kvibe comes from
Later skied with wife & our kids when they were little- way to big to get around for little ones- poma lift stretched way out & shot my kid 8 feet off the snow while liftie did nothing- may sound funny but believe me it wasnt
the lodge at lunchtime packed usin like sardines- expensive- no fun- went over to the pike they liked itbetter to- chips off the ol block i guess 
Then theres that advertsed vertical-  like a fish story it just keeps getting bigger & bigger-used to be under 3K now its what 3100? 3200?- wtf- and it aint continuous either, you gotta string it together peak to peak- no thanks
here ya go-  i stand at base lookin up & think  'ok- nice vert- superstar looks cool'
but stand at base of WF lookin up & think  'dam- that is some BADASS vert up there"- and continuous to
you ask what it was?   Ive had some good times sure- theres some good terrain to- but its the negative memories that mostly stayed w me-- it wasnt much

what powdr wants-
no idea- havent been in a while as you could probably surmise- sounds like they got some work cut out- i wish them well 

what i want- 
dont try &rip me off please , in so many ways- whyd they charge my wife full price for 6,7, 8 peaks when all she wanted was to put around snowshed?
And i dont want the interconnect to pico- keep the knuckleheads ooutta there 
would I go back? if my buds pulled me along- ok i'll do it for them, mebbe early season- cause magic aint open yet
K is like checkpoint charley that you gotta go through to get north & sooner or later it pulls your friends in....so me to
i'll tell you this- just because its bigger doesnt make it better- or you better either tho you may think
anyway to many other places i wanna go- the loaf awaits w some real vert

so thats it
flame away if you like- delete away if you must-  
but i call it like i see it

2 cents-  out


----------



## Geoff (Aug 6, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Nobody was bitching 5 years ago, or 15 years ago, or even 50 years ago for that matter. Killington was the best, the biggest, the longest, the craziest, the partiest, etc....
> 
> They are bitching now because all of that has been taken away in the name of trying to make a few extra bucks.
> 
> We're not bitching at Killington. We're bitching at Powdr and Nyberg.



This just doesn't align with my recollection.  From 1999 onwards, people bitched non-stop about ASC.  There were endless snide remarks about their "signature snow" after they slashed the snowmaking budget.  There was also a fair amount of armchair quarterbacking when Pres Smith owned the place.  I think that as a resort that serves the New York and Boston (not so much these days) markets, you're going to get a lot of big attitudes and chronic complainers.   

Other than the shortened season, I don't have much in the way of issues  with the way the current owners are running the place.  The lean operation is a little annoying from time to time but it's way better with 25% of the traffic gone.  I think they're making some poor business decisions and leaving a lot of money on the table but I'm a season pass holder and it's better with less people there.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

faceplant said:


> what it was-
> some of my experiences,and i mean only some- skied there 1st time back in the 60s, next day at Pico
> even then i could feel pico had nicer laid back vibe- matter of fact i still love the pike
> ok your right- good bar scene on the road- but theres no snow in a bar is there
> ...



Dad?  :lol:

sounds very similar to my experiences as a kid going there.  A common complaint is directed at Killington raising the price on children's programs.  It's the last place on earth I'd ever take a kid to learn how to ski.  They probably charge that much to cover the massive insurance policy they need to protect kids from collisions from all the gapers that are mainly there just to hit the bars.


seriously outside of my teen years in the early 90s skiing bumps late season and getting a fix for early/late season Jones in my early 20's, I have zero fond memories of skiing at Killington.    The memories of icy over crowded terrain that mostly turns to spread out push pile bumps by 1:00 with a bunch of aholes from NY and Boston skiing down your throat is what I think of most, when I think of K.  


I think the best way to describe Killington is that the place has been and always will be a 'city' on snow to me.  When I go skiing, I want to get away from the 'city'.


I have always liked Pico better.  Far easier to relax and have a good time over there.  It will be shame if/when the interconnect happens as Pico will in essence be ruined and become a suburb of Killington.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 7, 2009)

Geoff said:


> This just doesn't align with my recollection.  From 1999 onwards, people bitched non-stop about ASC.  There were endless snide remarks about their "signature snow" after they slashed the snowmaking budget.  There was also a fair amount of armchair quarterbacking when Pres Smith owned the place.  I think that as a resort that serves the New York and Boston (not so much these days) markets, you're going to get a lot of big attitudes and chronic complainers.
> 
> Other than the shortened season, I don't have much in the way of issues  with the way the current owners are running the place.  The lean operation is a little annoying from time to time but it's way better with 25% of the traffic gone.  I think they're making some poor business decisions and leaving a lot of money on the table but I'm a season pass holder and it's better with less people there.



People were upset with ASC in their last couple of years because Les's financial decisions had all the K profit going out west to pay debt. No reinvestment in K. People were upset, but that was nothing like the animosity created by Powdr/Nyberg. That's when the real bitching began.

You have a lot less to bitch about than most people at K these days. You have no kids in the programs that are prohibitively priced. You brown bag everything so you have no vested interest in spending money on absurdly priced items in the lodges. You don't rent your condo out so the amount of overall traffic has no effect on your income. You have no friends who own businesses on the access road (well, ya had one, but I won't go there today) so the fact that their business has fallen off a cliff has no bearing on you. 

People have always bitched about this and that, but the real bitching and animosity began when Nyberg showed up in town. That was the begining of the end.


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the best way to describe Killington is that the place has been and always will be a 'city' on snow to me.  When I go skiing, I want to get away from the 'city'.



I think that you are not alone in your recollection of what is like skiing there and what many share as their description of Killington


----------



## icedtea (Aug 7, 2009)

WWF-VT said:


> I think that you are not alone in your recollection of what is like skiing there and what many share as their description of Killington




I can understand that, but when you get to know the mountain better you can avoid most crowds especially with all the unmarked glades.

If you are not into being in the trees all day I can see the issues people would have.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

icedtea said:


> If you are not into being in the trees all day I can see the issues people would have.



I am, that's why when I go to Vermont, I choose the areas in Vermont north of Killington

more snow, better trees, less people


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I am, that's why when I go to Vermont, I choose the areas in Vermont north of Killington
> 
> more snow, better trees, less people



You'd think differently if you knew Killington. That place is far more than what's on the trail map. People like Ice Tea and myself spend much more time off the trail map than on it. If you make your way to the Big K this season, Ice Tea and myself will give you the tour. The real tour. We can show you, we just can't tell you.

BTW, I put Mad River on an even par with Killington if the conditions are right as far as terrain is concerned.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> You'd think differently if you knew Killington. That place is far more than what's on the trail map. People like Ice Tea and myself spend much more time off the trail map than on it. If you make your way to the Big K this season, Ice Tea and myself will give you the tour. The real tour. We can show you, we just can't tell you.
> 
> BTW, I put Mad River on an even par with Killington if the conditions are right as far as terrain is concerned.



I'm sure there is some great off map stuff and would love to take you up on the offer.  

I'm sure it would be a blast, but I'm also pretty certain it won't compare to Stowe.  Stowe is king in the east for Slack Country.  Good reason why the meatheads film there more than anywhere else it seems.


----------



## icedtea (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I am, that's why when I go to Vermont, I choose the areas in Vermont north of Killington
> 
> more snow, better trees, less people



i love Jay...i wish K would maintain its glades like they do there as well as adopting there tree skiing policy


----------



## WWF-VT (Aug 7, 2009)

icedtea said:


> I can understand that, but when you get to know the mountain better you can avoid most crowds especially with all the unmarked glades.
> 
> If you are not into being in the trees all day I can see the issues people would have.



I'm a season passholder at Sugarbush and don't need to ski unmarked glades to avoid crowds and have lots of options in the woods at Lincoln Peak , Mt Ellen and in between


----------



## mondeo (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I am, that's why when I go to Vermont, I choose the areas in Vermont north of Killington
> 
> more snow, better trees, less people


I get ya, but I think it's a lot easier to say that if you're not coming from CT/NY/NJ/PA every weekend.

To me, Killington is the closest mountain I won't get bored at all season. No real great memories there yet and only second hand knowledge of the pre-POWDR era, but overall the terrain and snowfall are pretty good. Maybe not the best, but good enough that it isn't worth an extra hour in the car each way every weekend.

You'll have to feed Nyberg some sodium pentathol to really know what POWDR wants it to be (not to knock the guy, but he's a public officer of the corporation; there'll always be spin.) My guess is a Porsche to go against Stowe's Ferrari. Not quite as upscale, but pretty close. I think they're still figuring out some what it takes to build a skiing Porsche in the east, though. If you want to have a premium product, you have to be able to do stuff like recover after ice events *cough*50th anniversary weekend*cough* better, something they probably weren't all that accustomed to out west.

As far as what I'd like to see, I don't particularly have a problem with the upscale aspect of the plan. All I'd heard growing up in WNY was that Killington was a mess of crowds. Outside a few CF areas (Ramshead, gondi on the weekend, new Skye Peak mess,) I really don't see it nowadays - less people is good for those that go. The collorary to that is that it still needs to be a mountain for harder charging skiers; it doesn't have the terrain to be couple weekend a month, cruiser lover's mountain. There just aren't that many cruisers; trying to make it another Stratton won't work. Besides, being a mountain for those truly passionate about the sport makes it much more stable. People that view it as only a luxury will drop it when there's financial issues much more quickly than those that truly enjoy it.

That being said, there's things they need to change just to make their vision work. Grooming needs to be much better, for one. Better and more staff. Premium products means corners aren't cut.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure there is some great off map stuff and would love to take you up on the offer.
> 
> I'm sure it would be a blast, but I'm also pretty certain it won't compare to Stowe.  Stowe is king in the east for Slack Country.  Good reason why the meatheads film there more than anywhere else it seems.




Don't be so sure about the K/Stowe comparison. Let us show you what we know. Your mind will be opened up about things.

As for MRG, where else can you hit a single chair and hear a circa 1974 Dark Star cranking from the lift house at the midstation?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Don't be so sure about the K/Stowe comparison. Let us show you what we know. Your mind will be opened up about things.
> 
> As for MRG, where else can you hit a single chair and hear a circa 1974 Dark Star cranking from the lift house at the midstation?



When I was at Cannon this past winter, the liftie at the Cannonball express had the dead CRANKED, mianly late 60's stuff.  I mean LOUD such that it was hard to talk to people near the front of the line.  I'm told it's fairly common.


Hopefully I make it over there this winter.  It's been almost ten years.


----------



## SpinmasterK (Aug 7, 2009)

icedtea said:


> i love Jay...i wish K would maintain its glades like they do there as well as adopting there tree skiing policy



Last fall we had crews clearing Low Rider, The Steps and sections of other gladed areas. Crews will be back out again this fall hitting more areas. BTW, Low Rider was very nice last season!


----------



## Greg (Aug 7, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> SpinmasterK - early as possible is less important than late as possible...





SpinmasterK said:


> Point well taken.



Aim for 5/16 on a half-groomed Superstar this year. I think that would satisfy most people.


----------



## SpinmasterK (Aug 7, 2009)

Greg said:


> Aim for 5/16 on a half-groomed Superstar this year. I think that would satisfy most people.



What about Lower Skyelark?


----------



## icedtea (Aug 7, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Last fall we had crews clearing Low Rider, The Steps and sections of other gladed areas. Crews will be back out again this fall hitting more areas. BTW, Low Rider was very nice last season!




Yes it was. Good stuff...


----------



## Greg (Aug 7, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> What about Lower Skyelark?



Any lift-served decent bumps open in mid-May would interest a lot of folks. Bumpers are easy to please - one trail with decent bumps and we're cool. Even half a trail with decent bumps is cool. Flat groomers in the spring or crappy sweeping GS bumps = not cool.

Check out Superstar at 0:18:



I was never good enough to enjoy the Killington spring bump scene back in the 90's. Bring it back!


----------



## SkiDork (Aug 7, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Last fall we had crews clearing Low Rider, The Steps and sections of other gladed areas. Crews will be back out again this fall hitting more areas. BTW, Low Rider was very nice last season!



Thanks!


----------



## icedtea (Aug 7, 2009)

Will Lower Skylark hold snow better than Supe? What is going on for Skyeship Base this season...is it going to run 7 days a week?


----------



## roark (Aug 7, 2009)

edit: I started this response a few hours ago, glad to see this thread back on track...

Man, active participation from Tom and still it's just a bitchfest. Weird to have a mod fueling the fire...

I can't really comment on what K was - but what seems obvious to me is that current management are ignoring the strentgths of K and trying to run it as if it were just another hill. I was a passholder last year (and 2 yrs prior) but won't be this year. 

The rich yuppie intermediate groomer market is already saturated in the northeast. The economy ain't going to jump back into hyperdrive = village, interconnect, etc. ain't happening for some time. Powdr needs to create a non-overlapping buisness plan - they will not be able to suck the yuppies from okemo, etc. K's target market should be the 20 something who wants to ski/board hard and party hard, and the commuter skier looking for challenge and variety (K is vastly more accesible to NY, CT, MA, than the MRV and Mansfield areas). They shoot themselves in the foot by continuously alienating these two types of skiers by attempting to target the yuppie groomer types. The mt has a geographical advantage with relatively easy access and elevation that should allow them to open earlier and (in particular) stay open later than any other mt. in VT. Unfortunately lifts need to be reconfigured to truly take advantage of elevation and aspect.

The first change has to be a philosphical one and could be communicated by simple actions. A greater commitment to blowing snow, recovering from ice events, an open boundaries (tree skiing policy), sane pricing for kids programs, and user friendly lift operating schedules would be evidence of a dramatic philopshical shift and would require little additional capital commitment (well, except the blowing snow and to a small extent lift ops).

I don't have time to go on, just hope to get this thread more on task...


----------



## Greg (Aug 7, 2009)

roark said:


> The rich yuppie intermediate groomer market is already saturated in the northeast. The economy ain't going to jump back into hyperdrive = village, interconnect, etc. ain't happening for some time. Powdr needs to create a non-overlapping buisness plan - they will not be able to suck the yuppies from okemo, etc. K's target market should be the 20 something who wants to ski/board hard and party hard, and the commuter skier looking for challenge and variety (K is vastly more accesible to NY, CT, MA, than the MRV and Mansfield areas). They shoot themselves in the foot by continuously alienating these two types of skiers by attempting to target the yuppie groomer types. The mt has a geographical advantage with relatively easy access and elevation that should allow them to open earlier and (in particular) stay open later than any other mt. in VT. Unfortunately lifts need to be reconfigured to truly take advantage of elevation and aspect.



Wow. This post distilled down the apparent situation better than any other I've ever read.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I am, that's why when I go to Vermont, I choose the areas in Vermont north of Killington
> 
> more snow, better trees, less people



times two..but Killington rules for early season..only place open last year November 2nd in Vermont..


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure there is some great off map stuff and would love to take you up on the offer.
> 
> I'm sure it would be a blast, but I'm also pretty certain it won't compare to Stowe.  Stowe is king in the east for Slack Country.  Good reason why the meatheads film there more than anywhere else it seems.



Stowe shouldn't even be mentioned in the same thread as Killington because it's so much better than Killington..the closest you can get to the Rockys on the ice coast..that's why I happily drive an extra 1.5 hours..


----------



## tjf67 (Aug 7, 2009)

Greg said:


> Wow. This post distilled down the apparent situation better than any other I've ever read.



Except for the fact that is is way easier to go to gore or whiteface from NY/NJ/PA.


----------



## mondeo (Aug 7, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> Except for the fact that is is way easier to go to gore or whiteface from NY/NJ/PA.


Help fill it in for those of not from NY/NJ/PA - Google maps shows 30 minutes shorter time to Killington than Whiteface from NYC. Better route, less aggravation? Google just plain wrong?


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 7, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Help fill it in for those of not from NY/NJ/PA - Google maps shows 30 minutes shorter time to Killington than Whiteface from NYC. Better route, less aggravation? Google just plain wrong?



The times are very close to the 2 from Jersey. The route is exactly the same up to Queensbury/Lake George (exit 20 off Northway). Then it's east to K or north to Whiteface. Driving times are similiar.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 7, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> What about Lower Skyelark?



<gasp>

... and the sun rose, and night be came day, and the light shone upon all the skiers.  And the skiers saw that there were spring bumps, and it was good.


Lower Skyelark last spring until it rotted away was excellent.  Superb.  Loved it.  Can't say enough about making that last a good while late season as well.  There was Superstar, half of Skyehawk (from Superstar blowover) and lower Skyelark.  It was a great cross section of terrain.  Bittersweet for intermediates was good too, but was the first to rot out and there is a diminishing return in keeping intermediates happy in late spring because once it's warm enough the bumps form too fast.

Sure hope this glimmer of hope pans out....


----------



## Highway Star (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure there is some great off map stuff and would love to take you up on the offer.
> 
> I'm sure it would be a blast, but I'm also pretty certain it won't compare to Stowe.  Stowe is king in the east for Slack Country.  Good reason why the meatheads film there more than anywhere else it seems.



So, can you find completely untracked glades, inbounds, 3 days after a storm at Stowe?  Because I can find that at Killington.


----------



## icedtea (Aug 7, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> So, can you find completely untracked glades, inbounds, 3 days after a storm at Stowe?  Because I can find that at Killington.




dude, there are no glades at killington..except that one big dipper.. :razz:


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## tjf67 (Aug 7, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Help fill it in for those of not from NY/NJ/PA - Google maps shows 30 minutes shorter time to Killington than Whiteface from NYC. Better route, less aggravation? Google just plain wrong?



Google is just plain wrong.  I am assuming it sends you up 87.  If not it takes even longer to get to K-mart.    From Albany it takes 2 hours to get to Whiteface.  2.2 hours to get to K-mart.  

you go straight up 87 at 75 miles per hour.   Then 30 minutes over 55 MPH road without traffic.  K you have to go over some POS road to get to the  V highway then you have to fight through Rutland and the access road.


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 7, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> Google is just plain wrong.  I am assuming it sends you up 87.  If not it takes even longer to get to K-mart.    From Albany it takes 2 hours to get to Whiteface.  2.2 hours to get to K-mart.
> 
> you go straight up 87 at 75 miles per hour.   Then 30 minutes over 55 MPH road without traffic.  K you have to go over some POS road to get to the  V highway then you have to fight through Rutland and the access road.



Yeah, fighting through that Rutland traffic can be brutal. Can take as much as 10 minutes to get to the other side of town.

Driving times from NYC/NJ to K or to Whiteface are pretty much the same.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> So, can you find completely untracked glades, inbounds, 3 days after a storm at Stowe?  Because I can find that at Killington.



I have my 'stashes'  yes


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

For the record, if the choice is made to make a Skylark glacier instead of SuperStar glacier because the feeling is that it would be more enjoyable for a greater amount of skiers (Skylark is less steep than SS correct? It's been ten years) hence making you spring season more successful and lasting longer, I'd be all for it.  and might actually swing over next May


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## Greg (Aug 7, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> For the record, if the choice is made to make a Skylark glacier instead of SuperStar glacier because the feeling is that it would be more enjoyable for a greater amount of skiers (Skylark is less steep than SS correct? It's been ten years) hence making you spring season more successful and lasting longer, I'd be all for it.  and might actually swing over next May



Who's going to start the thread in T&E for the Memorial Day Bump Fest on the Skylark glacier? Ski-offs optional.


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## SkiDork (Aug 7, 2009)

problem with SkyeLark is its invisible from the base area.  Half the fun is having a BBQ at the bottom and watching other folks go down.


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## tjf67 (Aug 7, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Yeah, fighting through that Rutland traffic can be brutal. Can take as much as 10 minutes to get to the other side of town.
> 
> Driving times from NYC/NJ to K or to Whiteface are pretty much the same.




Ive sat in traffic on the access road and on the hill heading down into Rutland for way more than ten minutes.   then is like an extra 40 minutes.  But that is similar. I am not used to driving more than 15 minutes to get on the slopes.  When you have to drive 4 plus hours another 20minutes one way or the other does not make much of a diff.


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## SkiDork (Aug 7, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> Ive sat in traffic on the access road and on the hill heading down into Rutland for way more than ten minutes.   then is like an extra 40 minutes.  But that is similar. I am not used to driving more than 15 minutes to get on the slopes.  When you have to drive 4 plus hours another 20minutes one way or the other does not make much of a diff.



you're talking about the access road.  Thats got nothing to do with Rutland traffic.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

I've sat in pretty good traffic in Route 4 in Rutland going south of town.


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## Puck it (Aug 7, 2009)

From the Killington Drift email

*Less than 100 days until we fire …
*… up the World’s Most Extensive Snowmaking System as we prepare to kick off the 2009-10 season. Are you ready? Do you have your season pass? If not, now is the time to lock in great prices for the coming season on our Midweek, Blackout and Unlimited Season Passes.


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## mondeo (Aug 7, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> Ive sat in traffic on the access road and on the hill heading down into Rutland for way more than ten minutes. then is like an extra 40 minutes. But that is similar. I am not used to driving more than 15 minutes to get on the slopes. When you have to drive 4 plus hours another 20minutes one way or the other does not make much of a diff.


Yeah, I was figuring it was faily similar, the couple times I've gone from Killington to Buffalo it was about an hour to Fort Ann, which means 2 to Albany.

And on a single trip, I agree that 20 minutes doesn't make a difference. But if you do it every week, 20 minutes of the same trip 5-6 months straight, year after year, can make a difference mentally. 15 minutes on the drive to Killington would be the difference on where I end up buying a house around Hartford all other things being equal.

Still need to make it up to Whiteface, but my understanding is that Whiteface and Killington draw slightly different segments of the same general base. Whiteface I'd look closer at if I was a racer type, Killington has more of the freestyle vibe, but both being good expert level mountains in the East.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> problem with SkyeLark is its invisible from the base area.  Half the fun is having a BBQ at the bottom and watching other folks go down.



Didn't you get the memo?

The party is over at Killington.  They don't want you're tailgating at events or during spring skiing.


:dunce:


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## mondeo (Aug 7, 2009)

Traffic from Killington through Rutland is fairly variable. Yeah you can get stuck at the end of the access road, by Pico, and into Rutland, but if you hit it at the right time it's fine.


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## Highway Star (Aug 7, 2009)

Puck it said:


> From the Killington Drift email
> 
> *Less than 100 days until we fire …
> *… up the World’s Most Extensive Snowmaking System as we prepare to kick off the 2009-10 season. Are you ready? Do you have your season pass? If not, now is the time to lock in great prices for the coming season on our Midweek, Blackout and Unlimited Season Passes.



Sometime before Nov. 15.....wooop-te-do......................


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## tjf67 (Aug 7, 2009)

SkiDork said:


> you're talking about the access road.  Thats got nothing to do with Rutland traffic.



I thought you skied there?  that hill going down into town where it changes from two lanes to one.   Traffic traffic traffic.  But I guess that is the price you pay to ski at K


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## tjf67 (Aug 7, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Yeah, I was figuring it was faily similar, the couple times I've gone from Killington to Buffalo it was about an hour to Fort Ann, which means 2 to Albany.
> 
> And on a single trip, I agree that 20 minutes doesn't make a difference. But if you do it every week, 20 minutes of the same trip 5-6 months straight, year after year, can make a difference mentally. 15 minutes on the drive to Killington would be the difference on where I end up buying a house around Hartford all other things being equal.
> 
> Still need to make it up to Whiteface, but my understanding is that Whiteface and Killington draw slightly different segments of the same general base. Whiteface I'd look closer at if I was a racer type, Killington has more of the freestyle vibe, but both being good expert level mountains in the East.




Plus K gets more snow than us.    Nothing wrong with K.   Hey if HWS and teabag ski there it must be RAD:razz:


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## SkiDork (Aug 7, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> I thought you skied there?  that hill going down into town where it changes from two lanes to one.   Traffic traffic traffic.  But I guess that is the price you pay to ski at K



I ski there every weekend.  Problem is (or not a problem for me) my place is at Glazebrook, so the only time I ever go through Rutland (unless I'm making a special trip) is coming up Fri night (figure I go through there at around 11 PM) and going home Sunday night, which on average for me is after 6 PM.  No traffic at either of those times.


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## icedtea (Aug 7, 2009)

tjf67 said:


> I thought you skied there?  that hill going down into town where it changes from two lanes to one.   Traffic traffic traffic.  But I guess that is the price you pay to ski at K



not really...


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## thorski (Aug 7, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Sometime before Nov. 15.....wooop-te-do......................



Isn't that about normal? Isn't it really all weather dependent?


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## mondeo (Aug 7, 2009)

thorski said:


> Isn't that about normal? Isn't it really all weather dependent?


Back in the day, when they had another 1000 feet of elevation and snow melted at 40 degrees, they'd open in late August.:razz:

Ok, when the K1 was a toe freezing double with a mid station, early October. Something involving trucks, too. The old-timers know the details.


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## JimG. (Aug 7, 2009)

13 pages already...spectacular.

Still the king of off season ski area chatter.


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## thorski (Aug 7, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Back in the day, when they had another 1000 feet of elevation and snow melted at 40 degrees, they'd open in late August.:razz:
> 
> Ok, when the K1 was a toe freezing double with a mid station, early October. Something involving trucks, too. The old-timers know the details.



I've skied there in october.


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## boston_e (Aug 7, 2009)

roark said:


> edit: I started this response a few hours ago, glad to see this thread back on track...
> 
> Man, active participation from Tom and still it's just a bitchfest. Weird to have a mod fueling the fire...
> 
> ...



I think a lot of this post is spot on...

IMO, Killington was always a "Ski hard and drink beer" mountian that was also friendly to kids and families (espically the type that were real "skier" families).


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## RootDKJ (Aug 8, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Ok, when the K1 was a toe freezing double with a mid station, early October. Something involving trucks, too. The old-timers know the details.



Yeah, and they used to throw the wool blankets over you for the ride up...great memories.



JimG. said:


> Still the king of off season ski area chatter.


LOL Jim.  It doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon:razz:


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## SkiDork (Aug 8, 2009)

JimG. said:


> 13 pages already...spectacular.
> 
> Still the king of off season ski area chatter.



thats what Geoff said - its all about superlatives


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 9, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Yeah, and they used to throw the wool blankets over you for the ride up...great memories.
> 
> 
> LOL Jim.  It doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon:razz:



I remember those blankets on the old double. That lift could freeze you to death if the wind was blowing the right way. Good memories though of a different place and time.

As for getting through Rutland, there are plenty of shortcuts that keep you off both Routes 4 and 7. Plenty of 'em. Just gotta poke around.


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## tcharron (Aug 9, 2009)

Greg said:


> Aim for 5/16 on a half-groomed Superstar this year. I think that would satisfy most people.



That'd be awesome, actually.  Skiing on my birthday (May 14th), and I can bring the kids.


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## Tyrolean_skier (Aug 10, 2009)

SpinmasterK said:


> Last fall we had crews clearing Low Rider, The Steps and sections of other gladed areas. Crews will be back out again this fall hitting more areas. BTW, Low Rider was very nice last season!



Spinmaster, you did way too much clearing in The Steps.  It changed the whole character of that tree trail.  I preferred it less open.   The main line in Low Rider was done nicely and more people can ski it now but I prefer the other lines because the snow is usually better where it's less tracked.


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## Tyrolean_skier (Aug 10, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Back in the day, when they had another 1000 feet of elevation and snow melted at 40 degrees, they'd open in late August.:razz:
> 
> Ok, when the K1 was a toe freezing double with a mid station, early October. Something involving trucks, too. The old-timers know the details.




I skied at K in early October by getting on a truck for a ride to the Canyon Quad, riding the quad, skiing the Glades, then riding the CQ back down and getting back on the truck to ride back to the base.  There are old timers that remember taking the old Killington double up and skiing back down to the midstation on Cascade and repeating the process.  I guess they downloaded that way too.  Geoff and Mr. Moose might be able to clarify how it worked then.


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 10, 2009)

Tyrolean_skier said:


> I skied at K in early October by getting on a truck for a ride to the Canyon Quad, riding the quad, skiing the Glades, then riding the CQ back down and getting back on the truck to ride back to the base.  There are old timers that remember taking the old Killington double up and skiing back down to the midstation on Cascade and repeating the process.  I guess they downloaded that way too.  Geoff and Mr. Moose might be able to clarify how it worked then.



Worked exactly like you said. I remember it well.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2009)

Only time I downloaded at K was years ago on the old double.  It was a pretty good set up.


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 10, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Only time I downloaded at K was years ago on the old double.  It was a pretty good set up.



That what we're talking about. Up from KBase to peak, ski to midstation a few runs, download from midstation to KBase. Rinse and repeat.


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## Geoff (Aug 10, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> That what we're talking about. Up from KBase to peak, ski to midstation a few runs, download from midstation to KBase. Rinse and repeat.



You could never download from the midstation that I recall.   You had to ride back to the top, take your skis off, and ride all the way down.   I always got huge vertigo when I got on the chair at the top.


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## Geoff (Aug 10, 2009)

mister moose said:


> <gasp>
> 
> ... and the sun rose, and night be came day, and the light shone upon all the skiers.  And the skiers saw that there were spring bumps, and it was good.
> 
> ...



Yeah, lower Skyelark was really, really nice the last few weeks of the season.  'Twas unfortunate that it didn't quite make it to closing day.   Middle Ovation was also a fun bump ribbon on far skier's left.

A Sunday May 15th closing, please.   ...and bring back the triathalon for that weekend.


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## Highway Star (Aug 10, 2009)

They need a midstation on the K-1 gondola, or a new lift on middle-upper Downdraft.

Or even a handle tow/poma on Upper Downdraft above the crossover.  Or even some stairs (100 ft vert)!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 22, 2010)

Bump.


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