# Views wanted on marriage/monogamy/infidelity



## severine (Jun 1, 2008)

Before I start, let me just say this is a genuine interest that I'm curious what others' views are on this topic.  Granted, I may not have come up with this topic 2 months ago on my own.  But right now, I've been doing a lot of reading on it and so it's ignited a curiosity in me to see what others think.

So I quote from the Top AZer you've had intimate relations with thread:



> Attitudes definitely change. Infidelity is probably no more rampant now than it was 30 years ago. It's just that 30 years ago, people didn't divorce over it... whereas I read a stat this morning that at least 50% of divorces these days are due to infidelity.
> 
> Makes you wonder.... are we really meant anthropologically to stay monogamous to one partner for a lifetime? Or do you think that longer life expectancies have led to an increase in divorces because people realize they'll have to spend a longer life with a partner? Or is it maybe that people today are just plain selfish and only care about #1 instead of giving and taking like you would in a mature relationship?
> 
> I'm really interested in views on this... maybe I should make a new thread?



And these were some articles I had posted in that thread (plus a couple more with great info):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17951664/

http://ezinearticles.com/?Who-Cheats-More:-Men-or-Women&id=440585

http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/infidelity/qt/whymencheat.htm

http://ezinearticles.com/?Why-Men-Cheat-vs-Why-Women-Cheat&id=779596

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/nip-infidelity-in-bud

http://women.webmd.com/guide/why-we-cheat


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## severine (Jun 1, 2008)

BTW, I'm not looking to turn this into a heated argument.  Again, this is not a personal discussion.  I'm just curious about others' opinions on this.  I have some myself but I'll save them until later so as not to color this thread (and you may be surprised by what I have to say).


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm not an expert on the subject but I've been in several relationships..one over 3 years so here's my take.  First of all..you can't have love without trust.  If somebody lies and cheats..the relationship will never be good again..Once a cheater always a cheater.  Marriage is a partnership...and both parties should do equal amounts of work....If the husband works 50 hours a week and the wife is a stay at home Mom..the time the wife is home with the kids is considered work just the same.  Each guys night out should equal a girls night out..it's only fair.  


Life is too short to stay with someone you can't trust..there are alot of good men and women out there..and the controlling, manipulative, cheaters..can find each other.  Water seeks it's own level..i'm a nice guy..so I expect to one day find a nice girl..I'm not going too settle for a bitch.

Some people get married just because of their age..that's dumb..My cousin was 29 and still single..she dated an O.K. dude..less of an asshole than the last guy and since she was 29..she expected to be married at 30 and have a kid at 31 and it happened.  If she was dating the same guy in college..she would have never marriedd him.  Divorce lawyers make a ton of money..marriages end due to finances, cheating, lack of attraction, and inattentiveness.  Not everybody has the ability to put themselves in others shoes.  With a divorce rate at over 50%..you should see all the tombstones in the junk pile at work from married couples who prebought tombstones and got a divorce..lol..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

Statistically the divorce rate today is the lowest since 1970. There are also fewer marriages though.

I personally think that age is the biggest factor. For the vast majority of people, I think that a man shouldn't be getting married until he is at least 30 and a woman, perhaps 27-28. As with everything there are exceptions for some, but I really don't think its a good idea getting married earlier than that. I just feel that there are so many things working against people in their 20's. Finishing up an education, figuring out where they want their career to go, having greater money stresses and social factors. With all of those things going on, I think for most it's difficult to give a relationship the attention it deserves.

As for infidelity, I would think the stats are pretty equal for both genders. I know I have been cheated on far more than I've cheated and the one girl I cheated on, she had strayed first and trust was broken. I might not have had that not occurred. I also know that I probably deserved having women wander from me in the past. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was emotionally neglectful.

Up until about age 25, nearly all of my interests consisted of partying with friends; whether doing the ski bum thing or seeing vast amounts of concerts. I was literally out involved in some sort of social engagement until 1 in the morning five days a week at minimum. If the women I were dating, weren't interested in doing that, tough luck because Gov't Mule is in town and they only come to town three days a year or today's a powder that I can't miss. Of course there were many many Gov't Mule's and powder days in my life at the time. From 25 to 30, I was a workaholic putting in 65-80 hours a week to try and get ahead in my field and make up for lost time from when I was partying when younger. I was far too wiped out when I did have free time to give anything towards a relationship.

Now my life has far more balance. I don't party so much. I go out maybe three days a month instead of five days a week; I ski one to two days a week instead of five...though I'd like to change that . I also work a more sensible 45 - 60 hours a week and have fare less financial stress as I've progressed enough in my career where my compensation now allows for a much more comfortable lifestyle. It just so happens that I've also been in the best relationship I've ever been in for the past two years. Seriously, we've never 'fought' once and I can count the serious arguements we've had on one hand. Coincidence....I think not. I'd like to think our relationship would be equally as successful had we met six to ten years ago, but I know it wouldn't have been. I wasn't ready.


Okay, I'll stop rambling before I kill the bandwith here on AZ. You asked for views, you got it :lol:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

US Divorce rates lowest since 1970!!!

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P1MG601&show_article=1

Alot of bad marriages stick together strictly for financial reasons.  One associate I know wants to divorce his wife but it would be too expensive since they have 3 kids and lots of assets...


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

Infidelity is the cruelest emotional pain you  can inflict on your partner.  The longer you have been in a committed relationship the more the pain from the act. For me, it is the ultimate betrayal  of trust. Vows whether spoken or unspoken should never be broken. If your unhappy in relationship ..divorce first but don't take up with someone first to see if that will make you feel better. 
When I was married, I was being tempted by a pretty young thing but I could never inflict that kind of emotional pain on someone who I loved just for some momentary pleasure. Imagine my surprise when my ex did it to me several years later. When i found out about it I was crushed, I never could believe I could be so heart broken. Then she moved out and moved in with her new boyfriend. The only thing that kept me from putting a bullet in them was my kids. 
even during the divorce she and her lawyer still continued to screw me. She felt things were owed to her for having to take care of the children. Ok I doing much better now but the memories remain. The pain has faded through the years but I was always remember.
I don't know why or really care for the reason why people can be so self centered. I view it as a major character flaw. I was raised to do the right thing no matter what the personal cost might be... Divorce is too easy today.. people want instant gratification..  no one wants to put some effort into a relationship .. for better or worst remember that..When there are kids involved it is even worst.. 
leaving because of physical abuse is one thing but leaving because I want to be first just plain sucks .. I have no respect for anyone that would leave under those terms. When my ex asked if we could still be friends I said No I have high standards when it comes to who i want to be a friend. If i can't respect you i can't be your friend.
To some I will sound bitter.. no matter.
Oh if Canadian Geese can mate for life, you would think we might be able to manage the same feat...


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## nelsapbm (Jun 1, 2008)

I agree with what the others are saying, I think age has a lot to do with it. I shudder at the thought of where I'd be right now if I had married any of the guys I dated when I was in my 20s. EEK! IMO people grow up the most in their 20s.....it's a decade of change for a lot of people - entering the "real world", magaging on your own, etc. I know I'm not the same person now at 34 than I was at 24 thats for sure! 
I met Mr. Right at 29 and we just got married in December (5 years later)- we're both on the same page about money (another deal breaker in relationships IMO), family, and what we want out of life. We were in no rush to get married. 
I didnt read through the links provided, but I wonder if there is a correlation to age of marriage vs. divorce rate? 
And I agree with Steezy...once a cheater, always a cheater.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

I think each relationship is unique despite commonalities in all of them. Going in to a relationship with unrealistic expectations and standards set by culture and media is usually a recipe for disaster. That said, if Spouse A is paralyzed from the neck down, and Spouse B is healthy, is it a violation of the marriage if Spouse A allows/encourages Spouse B to find some intimacy with a 3rd party? Spouse B loves and is devoted to Spouse A and wants to stay committed to the marriage, for better and for worse. If you answer that with a No, its consensual, how broadly does that exception become? Where does one draw the line? Were human beings really designed to stay married and monogamous for 40,50, 60 years? I don't know. I do know as much as I love my wife and life, marriage is a lot like russian roulette. If you survive, the thrill isn't worth trying  again, lol.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2008)

As I learned last year, once a cheater, always a cheater.  My ex, who some of you met, has been sleeping with her married boss for about a year now.  He has four kids and has been married twice.  I doubt that the wife knows it and someday she will.    

That was the most painful thing I have had to endure.  It was egregious.  The lawyer in me tries to fathom the logic behind it, but there is none.  We were happy, well I thought.  But the whole thing is just twisted and I walked out.  My friends and family were in disbelief.  

As was said, there needs to be trust and once it is broken, it is over.  

I spent the last year skiing, having fun, and getting back into dating.  I am now with a pretty amazing woman who is a bit older than me, but is in med school and working her ass off.  We have a pretty deep level of trust right now and have very similar backgrounds.  We treat each other well.  

I can say that from the terrible ordeal I appreciate myself and now my new relationship much more, and I have come to see how much someone can really appreciate me and our new relationship.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> leaving because of physical abuse is one thing but leaving because I want to be first just plain sucks ..



None of the girls I was with that strayed, did so because of physical abuse.  They did so because of emotional neglect.  I wasn't ready to give what is needed to be given to a relationship, but didn't realize it at that time and chalked them up to being whores. :lol:   Looking back, I would've left me to.  99% of the time, it's the 'cheater' that gets villafied, when in fact much of the time the 'cheated's' behavior is the primary reason infidelity occurs.  That said, I'm not condoning people to 'cheat' if their partners aren't holding up their end of the deal; it's always wrong.  

However, I don't think it's wrong for someone's mind/heart to wander and consider whether someone else might fulfill them better.  That's not being selfish, that's being human.  Some people are willing to exhaust more effort than others in salvaging a relationship and working through problems.  I don't necessarily view this as the 'right thing to do' nor do I view such people as better than those that aren't as willing to put in as much effort.  Everyone is different.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> 99% of the time, it's the 'cheater' that gets villafied, when in fact much of the time the 'cheated's' behavior is the primary reason infidelity occurs.  That said, I'm not condoning people to 'cheat' if their partners aren't holding up their end of the deal; it's always wrong.



Sorry, but I disagree.  If someone is cheating, or thinking of it, they need to have the balls to come to terms with why and speak with their partner and try to resolve it if they value that person.  If not, end it.  Simply saying, "my needs are not met," should not be a free pass to do whatever the hell one wants and cheat on their partner.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

Oprah and Dr. Phil are on the phone.......they want to make a show about this thread.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jun 1, 2008)

Your vows are "Till death do us part" not till when we feel like ending it.  If you can not make that commitment then do not get married.

Cheating is unacceptable as far as I am concerned.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> None of the girls I was with that strayed, did so because of physical abuse.  They did so because of emotional neglect.  I wasn't ready to give what is needed to be given to a relationship, but didn't realize it at that time and chalked them up to being whores. :lol:   Looking back, I would've left me to.  99% of the time, it's the 'cheater' that gets villafied, when in fact much of the time the 'cheated's' behavior is the primary reason infidelity occurs.  That said, I'm not condoning people to 'cheat' if their partners aren't holding up their end of the deal; it's always wrong.
> 
> However, I don't think it's wrong for someone's mind/heart to wander and consider whether someone else might fulfill them better.  That's not being selfish, that's being human.  Some people are willing to exhaust more effort than others in salvaging a relationship and working through problems.  I don't necessarily view this as the 'right thing to do' nor do I view such people as better than those that aren't as willing to put in as much effort.  Everyone is different.


Thank You for making my case and point .. Sorry but you don't just get it do you and I doubt you ever will .. This line of thinking so f@#ked I can't even begin to speak on it.. it's like the same line of reasoning if you hadn't said that I wouldn't had to hit you ..


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Thank You for making my case and point .. Sorry but you don't just get it do you and I doubt you ever will .. This line of thinking so f@#ked I can't even begin to speak on it.. it's like the same line of reasoning if you hadn't said that I wouldn't had to hit you ..


Oh just so you know I don't hate you deadhead ( which actually explains a lot) .. I will buy you a beer at Tenney next season ..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Oprah and Dr. Phil are on the phone.......they want to make a show about this thread.



ahahahahahaha...


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

Wrong thread, oops


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Your vows are "Till death do us part" not till when we feel like ending it. .




Yeah but some people stay in bad marriages..if a marriage is bad it should end in Divorce.  My Aunt stayed with my uncle for 20 years and the last 10-15 were bad but they stayed together for the sake of the kids..and then when the youngest went to college..they divorced and now they're both in really good loving marriages.  Both of my parents were in bad marriages before they met each other when they were in their early 20s..but it's a good thing they met each other back in 78 or I wouldn't be here..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.  If someone is cheating, or thinking of it, they need to have the balls to come to terms with why and speak with their partner and try to resolve it if they value that person.  If not, end it.  Simply saying, "my needs are not met," should not be a free pass to do whatever the hell one wants and cheat on their partner.



I said cheating was wrong.  Maybe it didn't come across right, but if someone's in a relationship and they're unhappy and make every effort to try and get through that with their partner and their partner isn't willing to put the same effort back; then I think its human for that persons mind/heart to wander.  The right thing to do would be to break up.  Unfortunately, some people aren't mature enough to leave first before seeking the affection of another person.  

And I completely disagree with the 'once a cheater or always a cheater' statement.  I'm great friends with a girl who cheated on me.  It took me three years to forgive her, but eventually I did.  She's been completely committed to her husband for six years and is a great wife whom I know would never cheat on him.  Why? Because it's the right relationship for her.....ours wasn't.  What she did to me was very wrong, but we really shouldn't have been together in the first place.

Look divorces suck, but not all of them are bad.  90% of the people I've known that have gotten a divorce, I say to myself...saw that one coming.  There are far too many people who put square pegs in round holes and get married to the wrong person for the wrong reason.  Every relationship has that 'honeymoon' stage where for the first three to six months everything seems perfect when in reality people's minds are clouded by lust.  Because that stage happens, some people think that they can talk their way back to that point, but the reality is once the lust settles, there's no real compatability there.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Thank You for making my case and point .. Sorry but you don't just get it do you and I doubt you ever will .. This line of thinking so f@#ked I can't even begin to speak on it.. it's like the same line of reasoning if you hadn't said that I wouldn't had to hit you ..



Our views are different OSBM.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I think cheating is horribly wrong.  I don't think divorce is though.  The girls who cheated on me, shouldn't have.   The all were right in leaving me though to find a partner who could fulfill them better.  Square peg, round hole clouded by lust.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2008)

I still think that you are giving the cheater a lot more credit than you should....if the person was not happy and tried to communicate that as you suggest, there is the break-up option rather than just going to cheating.

I think that part of the difference of opinion is generational.  Older generations I know value interdependence and solidarity.  Many people in my generation, and younger, think about "what's in it for me?"  I am not a "me" person.  My ex was....it was about her and her alone.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I said cheating was wrong.  Maybe it didn't come across right, but if someone's in a relationship and they're unhappy and make every effort to try and get through that with their partner and their partner isn't willing to put the same effort back; then I think its human for that persons mind/heart to wander.  The right thing to do would be to break up.  Unfortunately, some people aren't mature enough to leave first before seeking the affection of another person.
> 
> And I completely disagree with the 'once a cheater or always a cheater' statement.  I'm great friends with a girl who cheated on me.  It took me three years to forgive her, but eventually I did.  She's been completely committed to her husband for six years and is a great wife whom I know would never cheat on him.  Why? Because it's the right relationship for her.....ours wasn't.  What she did to me was very wrong, but we really shouldn't have been together in the first place.
> 
> Look divorces suck, but not all of them are bad.  90% of the people I've known that have gotten a divorce, I say to myself...saw that one coming.  There are far too many people who put square pegs in round holes and get married to the wrong person for the wrong reason.  Every relationship has that 'honeymoon' stage where for the first three to six months everything seems perfect when in reality people's minds are clouded by lust.  Because that stage happens, some people think that they can talk their way back to that point, but the reality is once the lust settles, there's no real compatability there.


No if your unhappy in a relationship just leave .. so to _wander _is like trying to find a better deal before leaving. I told my ex it wasn't so much her leaving it was about how she went about it. She might have been unhappy but I had no opportunity to know about it or try to do something about it. My answer just might have been leave then if that is what will make you happy.. But I was not part of the process to end the relationship.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

This thread proves that like most things in life there is risk, especially in relationships. What about serial marriage types? Why is a person sad or unhappy? Is it the relationship? Boredom? horniness? Immaturity? I don't envy anyone out there dating these days. If you can find love, compatibility, loyalty, and civility, it's a keeper in my book.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jun 1, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Yeah but some people stay in bad marriages..if a marriage is bad it should end in Divorce.  My Aunt stayed with my uncle for 20 years and the last 10-15 were bad but they stayed together for the sake of the kids..and then when the youngest went to college..they divorced and now they're both in really good loving marriages.  Both of my parents were in bad marriages before they met each other when they were in their early 20s..but it's a good thing they met each other back in 78 or I wouldn't be here..



Agree with you.  But you cut that part out of my statement.  If it is not something that is truelly going to last forever, it should not happen.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

As for dealing with cheaters...fakes..liars..and straight up trick hoe--chickenheaded beezies..some people are very forgiving and see cheating as a one time thing...but most people..myself included..hold a grudge..

The girl I had my longest realtionship with never cheated on me(as far as I know)..and I never cheated on her...but near the end she didn't treat me well..and became psycho so that was it.  I tried to give her another shot last summer but after two dates and several phone conversations..we both knew it wouldn't work..We both had grudges from years back...

I described our relationship like this...Imagine you have a great cake..pristine..and nice..that the way things normally were..but then things got bad and it was like somebody took a dump on the cake..sure you can push the poop off the cake but it's still going to have poopy residue..I even explained this to her last summer and she laughed hysterically but I always get girls for being funny...and for being a serious skier..lol


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2008)

Like someone taking a dump on a cake???

Whoa....

:lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> I still think that you are giving the cheater a lot more credit than you should....if the person was not happy and tried to communicate that as you suggest, there is the break-up option rather than just going to cheating.
> 
> I think that part of the difference of opinion is generational.  Older generations I know value interdependence and solidarity.  Many people in my generation, and younger, think about "what's in it for me?"  I am not a "me" person.  My ex was....it was about her and her alone.



How many times do I have to type 'Cheating is wrong'.  The right thing to do is to break up first, some people aren't mature enough at the time to do that.  Some people are mature enough, but don't for other reasons, which I'll show an example of below.  All I'm saying is that when relationships end because of cheating, the person who does the cheating is villafied and it's often never talked about what an asshole the other partner was. I do think cheating is wrong, but I also think in the court of public opinion, the person who was cheated on often gets let of the hook for being a total asshole and completely neglectful to their partner. 

I have an 'ex acquaintance' who's wife cheated on him and left.  I think what she did was completely wrong, but I also know that he was a verbally abusive asshole towards her for years.  Because of that, she chose to find another partner first before ending it purely as a need to feel protected and safe.  He was such a dick, she thought the verbal abuse might've turned physical.  The people who know these individuals are split down the middle.  Some side with the ex-husband, some side with her.  I think what she did was wrong, but I do understand why she did it.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> No if your unhappy in a relationship just leave .. so to _wander _is like trying to find a better deal before leaving. I told my ex it wasn't so much her leaving it was about how she went about it. She might have been unhappy but I had no opportunity to know about it or try to do something about it. My answer just might have been leave then if that is what will make you happy.. But I was not part of the process to end the relationship.



I'm sorry that happened to you.  Indeed I would be very hurt to....it wasn't fair to you.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

Cake dumpage?? Sorry, you can't push that "frosting" off and salvage a cake. I think it's more akin to a half eaten steak or sandwich from a stranger. You can cut away the nibbled bits and still salvage some untainted food. Cheating is more like mildew, once it gets in the fabric, there is no cure. You either learn to forgive and live with the odor, or throw it out.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> How many times do I have to type 'Cheating is wrong'.  The right thing to do is to break up first, some people aren't mature enough at the time to do that.  Some people are mature enough, but don't for other reasons, which I'll show an example of below.  All I'm saying is that when relationships end because of cheating, the person who does the cheating is villafied and it's often never talked about what an asshole the other partner was. I do think cheating is wrong, but I also think in the court of public opinion, the person who was cheated on often gets let of the hook for being a total asshole and completely neglectful to their partner.
> 
> I have an 'ex acquaintance' who's wife cheated on him and left.  I think what she did was completely wrong, but I also know that he was a verbally abusive asshole towards her for years.  Because of that, she chose to find another partner first before ending it purely as a need to feel protected and safe.  He was such a dick, she thought the verbal abuse might've turned physical.  The people who know these individuals are split down the middle.  Some side with the ex-husband, some side with her.  I think what she did was wrong, but I do understand why she did it.



Coming from the POV of being the cheated on, and being villafied for being the victim, I don't think that the cheatee is always wrong.  I did nothing wrong, other than love someone who was a complete narcisist.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

It's the riddle of the ages, if there was an absolute answer, this thread wouldn't exist.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Coming from the POV of being the cheated on, and being villafied for being the victim, I don't think that the cheatee is always wrong.  I did nothing wrong, other than love someone who was a complete narcisist.



Then you're probably better off for it; despite the pain you went through.  Trust me, I've gone through my fair share infidelity in my life.  It hurts beyond belief.  In one situation, I didn't date for almost two years I was so hurt and my confidence shot from the girl leaving me.

Looking back, I'm glad it happened.  We weren't right for one another.  It took me several years to realize that though.


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## severine (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm surprised there is this much activity in this thread already!  

Let me start off with the obvious (in my case), which is that cheating is never right.  Cheating is a symptom of another problem, whether that be low self-esteem, relationship issues, midlife, whatever.  It's not an answer to those problems and the problems will only continue until they are addressed, one way or another.  Problems in a relationship are 50/50.  Both are responsible; lack of communication or ineffective communication often exacerbate.  Still, if it's bad, leave.  Don't go checking out the market before you make that final decision.  Or put the work in and try to figure out what the problems are _together_, because you can only work out problems that way; one person can't do all the work.

What do I think?  I'm not so sure that humans as a species are meant to mate for life.  Maybe back when people lived about 30 years.  But today when people live longer, I think it's unrealistic to expect a couple to weather 50, 60, 70 years together.  Sure, you may get 20 years, possibly 30, if you're lucky.  But in the process, you both change and someone feels left behind or the other feels they've outgrown the first, and there's an imbalance that can't always be overcome.  The honorable thing is to figure out what the problems are, work on them if you can, or end it if you can't.  But not everybody does the honorable thing.  We're human, we're imperfect, we all make mistakes.  I don't think it's the mistakes that are the key; it's how life is handled after the mistakes that show the true make of a person.

So with that said, I'm also not so sure marriage is the right thing anymore either.  "Til death do us part" seems naive and childish.  Nobody wishes for the worst when they start a relationship (and I agree with what was said above about that lust stage in the beginning, BTW).  But to expect someone to stay with you through thick and thin seems unrealistic these days.  I blame that on changes in attitude, on this sense of entitlement that seems to prevail in younger circles.  Instead of give AND take, it's all take for some.  And in that case, there's no way a marriage would succeed.  Might was well chalk up the losses, be the best person _you_ can be, and find a more suitable partner.

Divorce rates may have dropped over the last 30 years (thanks for the link, GSS) but attitudes about marriage have definitely changed.  More are deciding not to marry at all, which I think I can understand now.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong.  Just that views have obviously changed.  

A great comparison would be work.  Think back to your parents' generation when a person expected to work their entire life for the same company and cash in on a pension (or whatever) for all their years of hard work and service.  Last I heard (about 10 years ago), these days you can expect to change careers around 7 times in your lifetime.  Whether that's because of layoffs, dissatisfaction, career change, relocation, whatever, it's still not what it used to be.  Attitudes have changed.

Sorry, my thoughts are a bit rambling because I have a 1 year old who keeps pulling on my clothes trying to climb on me.  I apologize if it doesn't make sense.

ETA: Just to round out the discussion, when I was 17, I cheated on my boyfriend.  But we were together....2 weeks?  A little different, IMHO, than marriage.  However, I still feel badly about it years later.  It was a stupid moment of passion thing and I let it get to my head.  And while in the past (yes, while married) I had also _thought_ about it because I felt neglected and unloved, I never acted on it because my marriage and family were worth more to me.  But it was still a gutless thing and I wonder why I didn't just man up and talk about my problems instead of letting them fester.  Just so nobody thinks I'm sitting here proclaiming to be Miss Innocent, high and mighty.  We're all human, we all make mistakes.  But maybe we're just not meant to be with 1 person for a lifetime, and we're fighting nature?  Or maybe I'm just telling myself that to make me feel better?  Knowing what I know now, though, I would NEVER inflict the pain of infidelity on another person.   Never.


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## MR. evil (Jun 1, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Sorry, but I disagree.  If someone is cheating, or thinking of it, they need to have the balls to come to terms with why and speak with their partner and try to resolve it if they value that person.  If not, end it.  Simply saying, "my needs are not met," should not be a free pass to do whatever the hell one wants and cheat on their partner.



+1

great post!


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

My parents have been married over 60 years .. yup they have had their ups and downs too.. You can do whatever you _choose _to do .. maybe there should be 5 year marriage contracts, renewable for this generation ..This going to be a shock for most of you but marriage sole purpose was to have and raise children not to make you happy all the time .. you can be happy doing this but it is not a requirement.


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## snoseek (Jun 1, 2008)

Isn't it a man's biological instict to spread his seed to continue survival of the human race? Haha I guess that was maybe true in the dark ages but Probably the main reason for cheating is low self-esteem or lack of maturity, or just being just plain selfish. I mean wouldn't we all like to have dirty hot sex with whoever we please without any consequences. Everyone has desires, it's the keepers that have it together enough to resist these desires and think of their partner. It takes the right two people but can certainly be done happily I think (or hope).

The whole idea of marraige puzzles the hell out of me (and perhaps other men too). It follows the princepals of religion and law, neither of which I personally follow. I can totally see it becoming more obsolete as less people have kids and even fewer go to church. I mean why exactly do we need a leagal document to express love to someone? "you better stay with me or else" WTF. If you have a distinct life plan that involves lots of kids then I suppose-but plans always seem to fail miserably and when they do having to deal with a bunch of kook lawyers and pay them sucks. 


I do think people that habitually cheat suck and deserve to be together-if that's possible.


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## snoseek (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> My parents have been married over 60 years .. yup they have had their ups and downs too.. You can do whatever you _choose _to do .. maybe there should be 5 year marriage contracts, renewable for this generation ..This going to be a shock for most of you but marriage sole purpose was to have and raise children not to make you happy all the time .. you can be happy doing this but it is not a requirement.



5 year contracts, that's a pretty good idea.


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## Greg (Jun 1, 2008)

I think a monogamous marriage is important if you plan to have kids. And if there are kids involved, a cheater cheated on more than just one person.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

All this gets heavily into anthropology ..  the system is changing but I am afraid not for the good.. the human species could just become another failed biological experiment of nature ...


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2008)

snoseek said:


> Probably the main reason for cheating is low self-esteem or lack of maturity, or just being just plain selfish.



Well, with my ex it was all three (in hindsight).  Good riddance!  



> I mean why exactly do we need a leagal document to express love to someone? "you better stay with me or else" WTF. If you have a distinct life plan that involves lots of kids then I suppose-but plans always seem to fail miserably and when they do having to deal with a bunch of kook lawyers and pay them sucks.



The reason for marriage is simple.  Both the church, and the state, need people to procreate to survive.  The whole intent is to provide an incentive for people to have kids (legal benefits, tax benefits, security, etc., etc.) because without kids there is no more civil society...


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## severine (Jun 1, 2008)

IIRC, don't you make out better on federal taxes as single than married?  Higher tax bracket filing married.... Granted, if you don't get married, you can't get the other's medical insurance... but there aren't a lot of benefits "on paper."

I may be a bit cynical about marriage right now, but I honestly had doubts about it before I ever got married because I feared exactly what happened in my case.  I do believe that if you plan on having kids, it's a good idea, if for no other reason than to be a good example for your children.  But then you start getting into why... Because church tells you to?  Because that's the ideal portrayed at us?  Children should be raised with a mother and a father, that's been proven psychologically.  But why should they be married?  Deeper commitment?  That's not always the case, unfortunately.  What makes some people value that commitment more than others?  I valued it.  I put stock in it.  But it didn't work out and now I'm not so sure I would want to make that gamble again.

Just a bunch of meandering thoughts.  But I appreciate everyone's perspective.  Gives me a lot to think about.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 1, 2008)

Been in a very happy mariage for 43 years and am no expert but  do have some experience professionally with relationship behavior issues mostly in complex organizational behavior arena  . Committment is built and nurtured on love  AND TRUST 

 Love  AND TRUST grows, matures and develops in a meaningful  way when communication is open , respectiful and both partners realize that they are in EACH In a 100/100 commtted realationship with certain expectations .

  DifFrences  in any EMOTIONALLY INTELLIGENT  ( EQ vs IQ)  realtionship are to be celebrated.  As i've said before on this topic  , Communication styles( ONLY  4 basic STYLES  and personality types( 16v Difff Personality types )  are maxed when  complementery styles are at play . Each "stlye has both strength s and weaknesses and also a strength weakness paradox can often be at play 

  That said however :   each partner can be "educated" as to not only how to "read" the other BUT more importantly how to "flex"  their  own communication style to meet the needs of OTHERS .  This includes not only one's spouse , partner , significant other, children BUT also colleagues friends and the entire spectrum  of REALATIONSHIP behavior ( co workers , bosses etc )

Interesting topic  Sevie


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Been in a very happy mariage for 43 years and am no expert but  do have some experience professionally with relationship behavior issues mostly in complex organizational behavior arena  . Committment is built and nurtured on love  AND TRUST
> 
> Love  AND TRUST grows, matures and develops in a meaningful  way when communication is open , respectiful and both partners realize that they are in EACH In a 100/100 commtted realationship with certain expectations .
> 
> ...



or just be a hermit and live in a cave..........


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## riverc0il (Jun 1, 2008)

There really is not much difference besides social perception between being married and being in a long term committed relationship. S and I bought a house together last year and we have no plans on marriage. Not because we are not committed but we can not think of any reason why we should spend all that money for something we already have, a long term committed relationship that neither of us thinks will end during our life time. A lot of people have a hard time fathoming this situation because of the way society indoctrinates young minds with ideals, norms, and mores about what is proper and right in so called civilized western society, specifically this country.

Looking back at the history concerning the institution of marriage, it is a pretty bleak picture. Especially in the early days in which a ring was essentially ownership and a "don't touch my girl proposition" (still is. any married people out there get upset because their partner forgot their ring or vice versa with a spouse upset that you forgot to put yours on?). Marriage was instituted in a male dominated society so the female historically was forced to change last names (which would be fine for uniformity of convention if that was the intent, but the real intent was displaying male superiority to females, historically... obviously not the case currently in most cases). Then you get into people who are not "allowed" to break a marriage for religious reasons (death till you part, and all that non-sense) especially when women are in mentally or physically abusive relationships. The mental abuse that can go both ways due to a marriage and the manipulation of such can be pretty intense.

But those are all reasons against marriage and mostly from a historical perspective. What I always come back to is asking someone to speak FOR marriage. And anything they say can always apply to couples living outside of marriage. I mean, heck.... would you buy a house with someone you were not marriage too? People ask us how we know we are committed and I just gotta laugh at that.



Greg said:


> I think a monogamous marriage is important if you plan to have kids. And if there are kids involved, a cheater cheated on more than just one person.


Indeed, in regards to the cheater cheating on multiple people with kids. Though I think having kids outside of a marriage with a committed person is just as fine as being married. But being committed and united in raising the child, that is required regardless of marriage or no.

In regards to cheating, for those really interested on human motivation on such issues, Wrights' "Moral Animal" is a sensational read which looks into darwinistic explanations for human morality. It deals a TON with issues about marriage or lack there of and cheating and such.

Humans are fallible and we all do stupid things at times. But cheating doesn't "just happen" and is usually a sign of problems in a relationship. Seems like more and more people are trying to work through those issues these days and see a cheat as exposing a problem in the relationship as we are past the "scarlet letter" mentality and a lot of other associated issues with women cheating versus men cheating. Clearly, it is a major sign something is wrong and creates some huge obstacles to regaining trust.

From a personal perspective, I have had two encounters with this situation, both as the unknowning subject of a cheater. In the first case, I was single and had what I later learned was a three week "fling" with some chick who really had a boy friend. I was a little pissed off about that from the perspective of being led on, so that was pretty lame. 

The other instance was more interesting. S and I had been together for a few years and I was away at a business conference and out partying with three other fellow manages at a dance club. After the drinks got flowing, I was dancing with one of the co-workers (all in good fun). She reaches up to kiss me, and I am like "Um, WHOA! That's enough!" Clearly a pretty conscious decision even though I was hammered and drunk, it was completely instinct.. didn't even think about it, just pulled away and was like WTF? Talked to her later about it, she's married and unhappy with things, not satisfied with things, etc. And does this sort of thing all the time. She was completely broken up about the whole situation, how she really didn't love the man she was with but didn't feel she could do anything about it. Typical duty bound Irish woman in full stoic yet sad tragedy moment type stuff (sorry for the stereotype, but you know what I mean!). Any ways, we stayed up until like four in the morning just talking. It was a great night. But I doubt it changed much for her though I hope our talk helped.


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## MRGisevil (Jun 1, 2008)

I disagree with all of these posts about people waiting until their 30's to get married. It's stereotypical and an easy cop out to "just blame it on the idiocracies of youth". In fact, most of the people I know with failed marraiges are in their thirties, not twenties, which would leave one to believe that one should not marry until they are in their 40's and have "done all of their growing up".

My views on infidelity? Unnacceptable. If you no longer want to be faithful to the person who committed a life long vow to you, then get a divorce. 

My view on divorce? Sometimes it's needed. Perhaps you married for the wrong reason and couldn't take the burden of the relationship any longer. Perhaps the person you married changed. Perhaps there are a laundry list of other reasons why you can no longer stay with the person you commited a lifelong vow to and perhaps you should have thought about that before you got married (unless, of course, your spouse became abusive, neglectful or disloyal and there was nothing you could do about it).


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

severine said:


> And while in the past (yes, while married) I had also _thought_ about it because I felt neglected and unloved, I never acted on it because my marriage and family were worth more to me.



This is what I was referring to in wandering thoughts.  For someones thoughts to wander towards other options when they're unhappy in their relationship is completely natural.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

MRGisevil said:


> I disagree with all of these posts about people waiting until their 30's to get married. It's stereotypical and an easy cop out to "just blame it on the idiocracies of youth". In fact, most of the people I know with failed marraiges are in their thirties, not twenties, which would leave one to believe that one should not marry until they are in their 40's and have "done all of their growing up".



I think there are exceptions to the rule no doubt.  Some people are quite capable of marriage at an early age. You and Tim appear be such a couple, which I think is great.  Heck my parents are High School sweethearts, still happily married in their 60's after tying the not when they were 20 and they really never had any serious problems.

I think if you were to look at the statistics though, people who get married for the first time in their 30's are much more likely to have it last than those who got married for the first time their 20's.


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## Dr Skimeister (Jun 1, 2008)

severine said:


> IIRC, don't you make out better on federal taxes as single than married?  Higher tax bracket filing married.... Granted, if you don't get married, you can't get the other's medical insurance... but there aren't a lot of benefits "on paper."



Filing married is the filing status with the least tax being paid. Married filing separately has the highest tax burden. At least that's my experience from when my first marriage was dissolving.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I mean, heck.... would you buy a house with someone you were not marriage too?



Yes I would and yes I am in two weeks time.   I also hope to marry her one day to.  

I am just about the must non-religious person you'll ever meet.  In fact, I'll go as far as to say that I truthfully feel that the world would be a better place without organized religion.  Throughout history it has created more trouble than good.

I could honestly give a care what marriage means from a historical perspective.  I could honestly care less what other people do.  If you want to live with your partner for life, have kids etc outside of a marriage, knock yourself out.  Do I think getting married to J will strengthen our bond or make it stronger than two partners living together without the husband and wife titles?  Absolutely not.  Do I still want to do it someday?  Yes, because I place a lot of value in the symbolism of saying 'I do'.  

Marriage isn't for everyone.  That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a ceremony to celebrate a life long promise to another individual if you truly believe that you are meant to be.  That's how I feel and when it happens, it isn't because I care what a court or a church thinks.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I think there are exceptions to the rule no doubt.   Heck my parents are High School sweethearts, still happily married in their 60's after tying the not when they were 20 and they really never had any serious problems.
> 
> Similar situation except we met in my 3rd year of college----------Married 2 yrs later i was 22


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 1, 2008)

Celebrating my 21st year of marital bliss in september.


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## jack97 (Jun 1, 2008)

Speaking for myself, I had different priorities and points of view when I was younger. IMO, as men and women grow older, they change; in the way they think, what they believe is important and so on. The test is whether they can change together as a couple.  

BTW, I've been with my wife for close to twenty years. She keeps so busy or I'm so preoccupied with my job or hobbies that I don't' have time to cheat on her


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## riverc0il (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Marriage isn't for everyone.  That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a ceremony to celebrate a life long promise to another individual if you truly believe that you are meant to be.  That's how I feel and when it happens, it isn't because I care what a court or a church thinks.


Excellent thoughts. Though you can still have a symbolic "I do" and a family gathering and a ceremony without actually getting married. Which I have considered having us do because I think those are valid points of merit but they can be had without the concept of marriage.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> or just be a hermit and live in a cave..........


Welcome to my world .. :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Excellent thoughts. Though you can still have a symbolic "I do" and a family gathering and a ceremony without actually getting married. Which I have considered having us do because I think those are valid points of merit but they can be had without the concept of marriage.



would such a ceremony involve a ring?


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 1, 2008)

Most of this sounds like I got a good reason for taking the easy way out .. your word should be your bond .. if you can't do that all I can say WTF .. marriage is commitment backed up by the force of law .. society can not function without laws. You can't just do anything you want .. well you can if your willing to pay the price. With no fault divorce doesn't matter a whole lot anymore anyway. Whatever happen to the concept I got your back? All this is starting to pry open closet doors I rather leave shut ..


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## riverc0il (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> would such a ceremony involve a ring?


Definitely not. I still see rings as ownership based and lacking trust. Many women attach too much emotional baggage to rings (some men to, to be fair). 

Just to clear up any confusion, I am not anti-marriage nor do I think they are bad things nor do I think that most people engaging in the activity of marriage are doing a harmful thing. Its all good. I just don't see the point, it just doesn't make much sense to me personally once you remove all the norms, ideals, and socialized attachments. Then again, I suppose it is just like any other cultural aspect that has no practical value, and I think culture is good, lol, so I can not wiggle my way out of at least a little irony about my views. ')


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

I think it's been well addressed that most everyone agrees that cheating is wrong.  What are people's thoughts on getting past such an event and continuing a relationship if it was one isolated incident?


The reality is that even good people make horrible mistakes.  One of my very best friends did.  If you were to ask me who I thought of my acquaintances is the most genuine, caring, polite and honest male friend I have, it would be D.   My last winter ski bumming in Stowe was spent on the slopes almost entirely with D and his then girlfriend S.  They had been together for about three years at this point in time.

Shortly after I left Stowe, D and S left Vermont to move to Colorado where D attended flight school.  They lived there for three years and each summer he would return to Cape Cod for a reunion week with the Hyannis Sound, an singing group that he helped found in the early 90's.  The week involved renting a house with former and current members of the group, doing performances and a lot of partying all week at the house, which always involved a lot of female fans.  D and S had one of the best relationships I had ever seen.  No problems between them at all. Well, on the last night of his reunion, D slept with one of these female fans who was down from western mass on vacation and had been hanging around the house all week.  D went home completely ashamed of himself for what he had done and at a loss for why he did it. To this day he couldn't tell you why as his relationship with S was great.

Two weeks after he gets home, he gets a call and its the girl telling him she's pregnant and was keeping the baby. She actually wanted D to leave S to be with her, but D was not going to leave S.  When I heard about this from D I was FURIOUS and hurt myself.  I wanted to tell him that in fairness to S, he should leave her, that he no longer deserved being with such a wonderful girl after making such a shameful decision.  It took me a long time to get over the anger I had with him, but he said they were going to work things through, asked for my forgiveness and support.

D and S moved back home to New England as D was not going to be an absentee dead beat father.  He gave up his dream of being a pilot and got a job in financial services.  For two years they went through counseling and S had to live with D raising his son from this other woman every weekend and D with the guilt of what he had done wrong.

Some how, some way they got through it and married two years after the cheating episode.  They just welcomed a daughter of their own into this world this winter.  You couldn't find a more picture perfect couple and happy young family.  There is no way in hell D would ever cheat again.

Moral of the story, even good people can make horrible mistakes and hurt someone they love deeply.  If the love is strong enough though and both partners are willing to work really hard, you can forgive, move forward and rebuild a happy and fulfilling relationship.  My two great friends are a perfect example of this being true.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 1, 2008)

I've read that the lower divorce doesn't really tell the whole story as there has been a big increase in couples not getting married who have kids, the house...the whole nine yards as if they are married. They don't show up on the divorce stats when they break up, which they do. Civil unions performed in Vermont are also producing civil divorces or not so civil. Do they count in the divorce stats?

Didn't I recently read that Dr Phil's wife has filed for divorce and going for 200m. In this day and age and attitudes I think it's an institution in trouble.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Definitely not. I still see rings as ownership based and lacking trust. Many women attach too much emotional baggage to rings (some men to, to be fair).
> 
> Just to clear up any confusion, I am not anti-marriage nor do I think they are bad things nor do I think that most people engaging in the activity of marriage are doing a harmful thing. Its all good. I just don't see the point, it just doesn't make much sense to me personally once you remove all the norms, ideals, and socialized attachments. Then again, I suppose it is just like any other cultural aspect that has no practical value, and I think culture is good, lol, so I can not wiggle my way out of at least a little irony about my views. ')



fair enough.  I am someone who believes in a ring, but not because of an ownership type feeling.  I essentially like all of the traditional symbolism that marriages have minus the BS.  I don't care what the law or the church says.  I'm in it for her and I, no one else.


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## severine (Jun 1, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I think it's been well addressed that most everyone agrees that cheating is wrong.  What are people's thoughts on getting past such an event and continuing a relationship if it was one isolated incident?


I think my POV on this is known by some here... We all make mistakes.  We all make bad choices.  But we don't have to let those choices define us.  If the cheating partner truly is remorseful, then I totally believe in working through the problems of the marriage.  Not only that, but I feel that if both are committed to that task, you can have a stronger marriage and love each other more than before.  BUT the problem is that BOTH parties have to be willing to commit to reconciliation.  It's not an easy process, it requires a lot of work on communication, transparency, boundaries, etc.  And if only one person in the relationship wants it, then it doesn't work (leaving them with no other choice than divorce).

I truly believe that if a person wants to get past infidelity, s/he can.  But s/he has to want to and some would rather escape into the fantasy instead.

And now I probably got too personal.  I apologize.

I am impressed by the insight offered in this thread, however.  When I was a teenager, I never intended to get married for various reasons.  Ownership definitely didn't sit well with me (but there were other reasons I thought were important at the time that faded into the background as I got older).  I agree that one does not have to be married to be in a committed relationship.  But it appears to me that perhaps people just aren't as committed anymore.  Perhaps?  Or maybe right now I can't see the forest for the trees...


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> My parents have been married over 60 years .. yup they have had their ups and downs too.. You can do whatever you _choose _to do .. maybe there should be 5 year marriage contracts, renewable for this generation ..This going to be a shock for most of you but marriage sole purpose was to have and raise children not to make you happy all the time .. you can be happy doing this but it is not a requirement.



Your parents generation...my grandparents..were just so different and unlike any generation we'll ever see again.  They lived through the Depression..and through food rationing during World War 2..Women lived at home with their parents until they were married and they hardly ever went to college.  People had tons of kids..people were far less materialistic and were happy with a refridgerator..one TV..a small house..a simple trip to the lake...people hardly ever went out to dinner..There was no Sex in the City generation then...Not many independent professional women..not many overgrown frat-dogs skibumming or playing beer pong when pushing 30.  People followed a routine..got dressed up for baseball games..and were so Patriotic.

The world is just so different now...Generation Me is a book I'd suggest checking out... 

http://www.generationme.org/aboutbook.html

It's about people born after 1970....attitudes have changed so much...My generation is a hell of alot different than the Baby Boomers...They're the first generation to most likely not be better off than their parents..even though they are the most educated generation..Even people my parents ages mainly got married in their early 20s..now people are getting married later which as DeadHeadSkier talked about earlier..is a really good idea.  I personally don't expect to get married until I'm at least 35..I'm still finding myself..and I still have some growing up to do..despite almost being 28...But my lifestyle now vs 5 years ago is night and day..yeah the 20s are a time to grow up..only uber mature people my age are ready for marriage and children..IMHO..at least in the society we live in today..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 1, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Celebrating my 21st year of marital bliss in september.



Wow Moe..I didn't realize you've been married so long..


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2008)

severine said:


> But it appears to me that perhaps people just aren't as committed anymore.  Perhaps?  Or maybe right now I can't see the forest for the trees...




Perhaps.....

I really don't think it's necessarily a change in mentality / philosophy though.  It's not like everyone has read the Celestine Prophecy and thinks that monogamy is for the un-evolved. 

I just think the world is far more complicated today and the outside stresses these complications puts on people as individuals makes it harder to give a relationship the attention it truly deserves.


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## bigbog (Jun 1, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> .....but then things got bad and it was like somebody took a dump on the cake..sure you can push the poop off the cake but it's still going to have poopy residue....


..Steeze, I've never heard that one!....ROTFL... :lol: :lol:...


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## Philpug (Jun 1, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> *No if your unhappy in a relationship just leave .. *so to _wander _is like trying to find a better deal before leaving. I told my ex it wasn't so much her leaving it was about how she went about it. She might have been unhappy but I had no opportunity to know about it or try to do something about it. My answer just might have been leave then if that is what will make you happy.. But I was not part of the process to end the relationship.



IMHO, this is the reason the divorce rate is so high. It is too easy to just leave. I could get into my situation, but basically we worked it and didn't "just leave".


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## snoseek (Jun 2, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Your parents generation...my grandparents..were just so different and unlike any generation we'll ever see again.  They lived through the Depression..and through food rationing during World War 2..Women lived at home with their parents until they were married and they hardly ever went to college.  People had tons of kids..people were far less materialistic and were happy with a refridgerator..one TV..a small house..a simple trip to the lake...people hardly ever went out to dinner..There was no Sex in the City generation then...Not many independent professional women..not many overgrown frat-dogs skibumming or playing beer pong when pushing 30.  People followed a routine..got dressed up for baseball games..and were so Patriotic.
> 
> The world is just so different now...Generation Me is a book I'd suggest checking out...
> 
> ...



you're so right about the difference in generations. I really think the American family is going to shrink for so many reasons. People are waiting so much later in life to make all of these decisions-there is too many distractions in life to settle down at 19 and have kids ect.... 

My parents give me $hit about marrying my current sweety that I've been with for nearly six years now but we are plenty happy the way things are-simple and easy with no pressure. I know I've found the same kind of soul mate and love that so many married people have and feel no need to make it legal. If things take a bad turn for some reason well thats life, other than that we are committed just like anyone else.


I wonder if the pressures of staying together because of marraige and or kids contribute to infidelity. I mean without these binds you would be more free to do as you truly please without repressing the urges for years.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> IMHO, this is the reason the divorce rate is so high. It is too easy to just leave. I could get into my situation, but basically we worked it and didn't "just leave".


I agree with you completely on your point ..what I was meaning if your so unhappy in your present relationship that your actively looking to bed somebody else down you should bring the present relationship to an end. The other party probably won't be happy but at least some respect is shown to them and to yourself.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I agree with you completely on your point ..what I was meaning if your so unhappy in your present relationship that your actively looking to bed somebody else down you should bring the present relationship to an end. The other party probably won't be happy but at least some respect is shown to them and to yourself.


Oh the end of the marriage relationship is when you have the divorce papers in hand that have been signed by the court .. only then should you seek new sexual partners ..being separated doesn't count. I still say living together without the _benefit_ of marriage is still having one foot out the door. Your leaving yourself an easy way out. I probably won't ever get married again just because of the financial considerations. I am not sharing my retirement money with anybody again.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Our views are different OSBM.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I think cheating is horribly wrong.  I don't think divorce is though.  The girls who cheated on me, shouldn't have.   The all were right in leaving me though to find a partner who could fulfill them better.  Square peg, round hole clouded by lust.


After reading your posts .. I was way too critical of you and your POV at first .. I apologize to you .. I should have held off and I feel bad about not having done that .. even after 10 years it can be still be a touchy subject for me.. as you get older events can seem like yesterday that are decades old.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Our views are different OSBM.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I think cheating is horribly wrong.  I don't think divorce is though.  The girls who cheated on me, shouldn't have.   The all were right in leaving me though to find a partner who could fulfill them better.  Square peg, round hole clouded by lust.


 Oh please use OSME .. OSBM sounds like some kind of a bowel movement .. not that what I have to say isn't one at times ..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

bigbog said:


> ..Steeze, I've never heard that one!....ROTFL... :lol: :lol:...



You've never heard that because I made that up..lol


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## severine (Jun 2, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> IMHO, this is the reason the divorce rate is so high. It is too easy to just leave. I could get into my situation, but basically we worked it and didn't "just leave".


Totally agree.  But that's the thing - it takes work.  Some (many?) just aren't willing to do that. 

Check out the forums at survivinginfidelity.com sometime - it's sobering.  Probably'll make you cynical about marriage, too.



OldsnowboarderME said:


> I agree with you completely on your point ..what I was meaning if your so unhappy in your present relationship that your actively looking to bed somebody else down you should bring the present relationship to an end. The other party probably won't be happy but at least some respect is shown to them and to yourself.





OldsnowboarderME said:


> Oh the end of the marriage relationship is when you have the divorce papers in hand that have been signed by the court .. only then should you seek new sexual partners ..being separated doesn't count. I still say living together without the _benefit_ of marriage is still having one foot out the door. Your leaving yourself an easy way out. I probably won't ever get married again just because of the financial considerations. I am not sharing my retirement money with anybody again.


Totally agree.

Though I will add this... I read the book _Uncoupling_, which is a sociological study of how people break up.  It was interesting that there's almost a textbook-like series of circumstances that just about every relationship and party of the relationship goes through before the actual break up.  In the book, finding another person before breaking up was likened to finding another job before you leave the one you currently have and don't like.  I could almost understand that (though I still don't condone it).



GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> You've never heard that because I made that up..lol


It's a great analogy, though.  I shared that one with my dad last night and he thought it was perfect.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> IMHO, this is the reason the divorce rate is so high. It is too easy to just leave. I could get into my situation, but basically we worked it and didn't "just leave".



This very much dependent on where you live.  If your marriage license is in the state of Maryland, you have to be legally separated for a year before you can get a divorce.  I believe you also have to have record that you at least attempted some relationship counseling.


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## noski (Jun 2, 2008)

severine said:


> ...Granted, if you don't get married, you can't get the other's medical insurance... .


Actually, in VT if you have a domestic partner for one year, you can include him/her on your insurance. 

In my experience when one marries in their (typical) early/mid 20's you can grow apart by growing and maturing in different directions. You don't have enough life experience at that age to see a clear maturity path. Now, remarried in my late 40's (a whole week now), I am a more self assured, confident, and most importantly- truly happy person. This marriage is one with depth and maturity. What a difference.


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## Trekchick (Jun 2, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I think it's been well addressed that most everyone agrees that cheating is wrong.  What are people's thoughts on getting past such an event and continuing a relationship if it was one isolated incident?


I think that an affair can be forgiven and worked through, but a pattern or lifestyle of infidelity is a lost cause in any marriage.


To the original thoughts of this thread:
The 7 year itch is a real thing, because we all go through cycles of growth every 5-7 years.  In the interest of growth, we need to reevaluate our partnership and make sure that the other person is coming along for the ride.
I'm most definitely not the same woman my husband married, THANK GOD!
There has only been one time in my life I wanted to Jump Ship, because I thought we had grown too far apart and would never reconnect, but we worked on it, (both involved in the work) and we are both better individuals today, which makes us a better couple.
21 years this October, and I'll be 42, so I'll have been married to him half my life. 

Here's another question:
How do you think age plays a role in marriage?
Age of marriage
Age at the time of marriage
Age difference between him/her


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## tjf67 (Jun 2, 2008)

Infidelity is wrong.  That being said if you bring up to your partner what your needs and expectations are and they are unwilling to, or simply neglectful of then it is time for a decision. 

Life is to short spending 25 years of it miserable.


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## drjeff (Jun 2, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Here's another question:
> How do you think age plays a role in marriage?
> Age of marriage
> Age at the time of marriage
> Age difference between him/her



Age as a factor - YES.  In general, older is better IMHO, since most folks, especially guys do alot of maturing (or atleast theoretically) between age 18 and 30.

Age of marriage - I was 25, and in now way in my situation would I have considered getting married earlier

Age difference - my wife is just under 5 months older than myself.  I think that dpending on the age that you get married that the age difference can make a big difference.  For the younger aged folks, closer is better, just simply because of similarities in life experiences.  The older and more "seasoned" you get the less of a factor age difference becomes.  As someone who works around quite a few attractive women who are 10+ years younger than myself, and in a sense has a very close day to day relationship with them at work, while I find them easy on my eyes,  the life experience difference between us is just way to large to make me even consider something like that.


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## Dr Skimeister (Jun 2, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> This very much dependent on where you live.  If your marriage license is in the state of Maryland, you have to be legally separated for a year before you can get a divorce.  I believe you also have to have record that you at least attempted some relationship counseling.



In most states, the time between seperation and the granting of a divorce decree depends on the grounds for the divorce suit. "Irreconcilable differences", the most common grounds for divorce typically has the longer wait time. Adultery, Physical or Mental Abuse have the shorter waits. I think though, that those have to be proven if the defendant party choses to contest.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 2, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> I think that an affair can be forgiven and worked through, but a pattern or lifestyle of infidelity is a lost cause in any marriage.
> 
> 
> To the original thoughts of this thread:
> ...




ALL great questions :  INO  TO synthesize what appears to be some commonality in several comments made from all of us --it seems that EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE ( at whatever age it's attained ) is critical to the endurance of ANY relationship . EQ gives us ability to adapt and deal with many situations . 

To be sure violence,  abuse or a pattern of TRUST busting behaviors are  strong indicators of underdeveloped EQ and other underlying behavioral issues and are cause for separation . But often the in-ability to communicate ON THE SMALL stuff leads to Largert issues in the  end result    --my 2 cents


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Here's another question:
> How do you think age plays a role in marriage?
> Age of marriage
> Age at the time of marriage
> Age difference between him/her



I've expressed my views on this, but....

Age of marriage: I'm 32 and I am not married, happily living in sin for almost two years though

Age at time of marriage: TBD for me.  For _most_ people I think 30 is a good age for men; 26-27ish for women

Age difference:  If I'm fortunate enough to marry J someday, I am 6.5 years older than her.  I think roughly 15 years is a healthy 'max' number.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 2, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> For _most_ people I think 30 is a good age for men; 26-27ish for women




I disagree that there is an "ideal" age for marriage.  It's not a phase or step in life.  Either you're ready or you're not (be it at 18 or 60).  

Regarding infidelity....Yes, it's terrible, but there are many reasons for a marriage to go south, and infidelity is just a knee-jerk obvious one.  Someone emotionally detached and unsupportive deserves to get dumped just as much as a cheater.


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## Trekchick (Jun 2, 2008)

My feeling on age:

Age at the time of marriage
I think there is too much change and growth between the ages of 18-25, so my advice to anyone considering marriage.  Wait until you're 25.  Hopefully your brain has formed enough by that point that any growth that follows will be more easily pursued with another person in your life and with more understanding of the other individual.

Age difference
My husband is nearly 10 years older than I am.  Because of this, I spent a lot of the early years of my marriage looking to him as a mentor and guide, which was a blessing in many ways, yet a curse in others.  It wasn't until later in my marriage that I blossomed as an individual, and became an equal partner in the relationship.  I'm not sure that everyone has the tools to break the patterns and become a better partner when there is that kind of age difference and such a dominant figure in the marriage.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> I disagree that there is an "ideal" age for marriage.  It's not a phase or step in life.  Either you're ready or you're not (be it at 18 or 60).



If you noticed, I did say 'most'.....meaning there are exceptions.  I agree, you're either ready or not, but I feel for 'most' men, they aren't mature enough until they are 30+.  Mind you, I have held this opinion since I was 20 or so; it has nothing to do with me being over 30 and having never married.

I personally don't see why individuals would rush to get married before the age of say 23.  

In a former life, I hosted numerous weddings; probably 250 plus.  Many of these were in the mid-west and mid-atlantic states where it was quite common to see TEENAGERS getting married.  Seriously, brides and husbands to young to even have a champagne toast at their wedding.  Why?

Actually in Vermont I hosted a wedding on NYE four years ago.  The bride was 19, the groom was 20.  A couple of my servers went to high school with the bride and the bride demanded that these girls not work the function because she didn't like them.  You think she was mature enough to get married?  This event cost her parents over thirty grand.  Six months later they got pregnant, six months after that they were divorced before the birth of the child and a year and a half later she was marrying another guy again at the hotel for around 30 g's.    When I used to work in the wedding business, we used to love those young couples because most of the time, they ended up being repeat customers :lol:



I really just don't see the rush for 'most' people.  Enjoy your life, travel, experience the world, become educated and get your career started.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

Dr Skimeister said:


> In most states, the time between seperation and the granting of a divorce decree depends on the grounds for the divorce suit. "Irreconcilable differences", the most common grounds for divorce typically has the longer wait time. Adultery, Physical or Mental Abuse have the shorter waits. I think though, that those have to be proven if the defendant party choses to contest.


In Maine .. the wait is only 2 weeks or as long as it takes for the ink to dry on the paper..


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## severine (Jun 2, 2008)

I do think people mature (for the most part) as they get older, and waiting to get married would probably prevent mismatches from occurring.  HOWEVER, there are no guarantees.

In my case, I waited 6 years to get married, thinking that would mean we were past the worst.  I was nearly 24 the day I got married.  In retrospect, perhaps I should have waited longer.  But again, no guarantees.  I know of others who married younger and with less time dating who remain married to this day after decades.

Regarding the discussion of waiting periods for divorce, in CT, it's 90 days.  That's it.  When you add in the 3 weeks leeway for getting papers served, that means that if you're dilligent (and go pro se or mediation instead of litigation), you can get divorced within 4 months with no required counseling.  Even with kids.  There is a required parenting class but that's it.  Going the litigation route, I was quoted 10 months minimum because of all the court involvement and scheduling between attorneys.  But again, still only a 90 day cool-off period.

I would think that maybe an extended cool-off period would *hopefully* allow those marriages that are just going through a rough spot and shouldn't really be over to possibly reconcile.  But I don't know.  There's also the consideration that once the initiator has decided it's over, there's not a whole lot that would bring him/her back since by the time that announcement has been made, s/he has already grieved and removed him/herself from the marriage a long time ago.

People do change.  My father loves to tell me this quote (he paraphrases) that is supposedly from Antonio Banderas about how wonderful marriage is because it gives you the opportunity to fall in and out of love with the same person numerous times over a lifetime.  I firmly believe that's the case; nobody gets along all the time, but if you can ride it out, it gets better.  It just seems to me that most don't want to ride it out, which is why I started to wonder if humans as a species are just not meant to be monogamous or share a lifetime with only 1 partner.

I still don't know for sure.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

severine said:


> I do think people mature (for the most part) as they get older, and waiting to get married would probably prevent mismatches from occurring. HOWEVER, there are no guarantees.
> 
> In my case, I waited 6 years to get married, thinking that would mean we were past the worst. I was nearly 24 the day I got married. In retrospect, perhaps I should have waited longer. But again, no guarantees. I know of others who married younger and with less time dating who remain married to this day after decades.
> 
> ...


Trust me .. dating after 50 is not much fun ..  I would have preferred to have been married. I don't want to fall in and out of love with different women. I would have been happy with just the one.


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## severine (Jun 2, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Trust me .. dating after 50 is not much fun ..  I would have preferred to have been married. I don't want to fall in and out of love with different women. I would have been happy with just the one.


I hear ya and I'm much younger.  Having 1 person to love, 1 person's crap to deal with, whatever, is far better than many in the same time frame.  Quality, not quantity.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Oh please use OSME .. OSBM sounds like some kind of a bowel movement .. not that what I have to say isn't one at times ..



It sounds like ODB...aka Old Dirty Bastard from the Wu Tang Clan...RIP Dirt Dawg..:beer:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

I wonder what percentage of married people have no children???  It must be less than half..but most likely growing..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I've expressed my views on this, but....
> 
> I think roughly 15 years is a healthy 'max' number.



So my future wife might be in middle school..:smile:


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## drjeff (Jun 2, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wonder what percentage of married people have no children???  It must be less than half..but most likely growing..



I'd also bet that overall the percentage of folks having 3+ kids is declining too.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Trust me .. dating after 50 is not much fun ..  I would have preferred to have been married. I don't want to fall in and out of love with different women. I would have been happy with just the one.



On Match.com there are alot of people over age 50 and some women in their 30s date men in their 50s..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

drjeff said:


> I'd also bet that overall the percentage of folks having 3+ kids is declining too.



Hell yeah..kids are expensive..It would be cool to be a DINK one day...Double Income No Kids..well I'm really just afraid to change a babies diaper..something I've never done..but I guess cleaning up your own kids poop isn't that big of a deal..


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## drjeff (Jun 2, 2008)

drjeff said:


> I'd also bet that overall the percentage of folks having 3+ kids is declining too.




Just did a little google search and in an article I found based on 1998 census bureau stats, 18.4 percent of married women of childbearing age (15-44) were childless - That equated into 5.7 million women.

That number was up from 2.4% of the same demographic of married women being childless in 1982.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Just did a little google search and in an article I found based on 1998 census bureau stats, 18.4 percent of married women of childbearing age (15-44) were childless - That equated into 5.7 million women.
> 
> That number was up from 2.4% of the same demographic of married women being childless in 1982.



Birth control pills should be madatory until a woman is like 30..lol


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Trust me .. dating after 50 is not much fun ..  I would have preferred to have been married. I don't want to fall in and out of love with different women. I would have been happy with just the one.



I certainly wouldn't want to be dating after the age of 50.  I can understand how hard that might be.

I'm glad I've gone through a half dozen failed serious relationships though; one of those being a girl I dated age 18 until 24 who I thought for certain I would end up marrying one day.  Each woman / relationship was different and I grew from the experience.  All of those relationships were with women whom I loved dearly and the break ups always hurt terribly.  That said, I can look back at all of these relationships and see that no matter how much work I or the girls put into the relationship, we just were not compatible. Even if I met them today where I'm at a stage in my life where I am much more settled and mature than my younger crazy party days, a long term relationship with these women would not work.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

Well one problem with older people dating is when an old man doesn't feel up his date..he feels her down..wow that was bad and tasteless..but grandmas wear the wonderbra these days..lol

At a local danceclub..I feel old hitting up College night but there are a few 50-something men who always go there and stand on the side of the dancefloor staring at the college girls..I don't want to be one of them in 25 years.


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 2, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well one ..I don't want to be one of them in 25 years.



Then get off the friggin net And GIT BUSY ---------- LMAO


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> Then get off the friggin net And GIT BUSY ---------- LMAO



You'd be surprised..I've been doing well lately...I'm just not ready to date one girl right now..I like to casually date a few different women so I can compare and contrast...before I go steady...lol

I think I'll probably get married in my late 30s..


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## ckofer (Jun 2, 2008)

As far as getting ready to settle down, I think it would be a good idea for nearly any young (20's) person to live on his or her own (no roommates/not in parent's extra house/etc) for a year before committing to lifelong partnership with anyone.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 2, 2008)

Mayan calendar ends Dec. 14. 2012, FYI


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 2, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Mayan calendar ends Dec. 14. 2012, FYI


But the world won't ... I hope it will be a good day to go boarding...


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## Warp Daddy (Jun 2, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> You'd be surprised..I've been doing well lately...I'm just not ready to date one girl right now..I like to casually date a few different women so I can compare and contrast...before I go steady...lol
> 
> I think I'll probably get married in my late 30s..





GOOD  4 U    - Hope she's an awesome woman !!


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 2, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> You'd be surprised..I've been doing well lately...I'm just not ready to date one girl right now..I like to casually date a few different women so I can compare and contrast...before I go steady...lol
> 
> I think I'll probably get married in my late 30s..



Here's a pic of him with one of his latest dates. This could be considered by some as a step backwards from Matchdot.com. Just sayin.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

ckofer said:


> As far as getting ready to settle down, I think it would be a good idea for nearly any young (20's) person to live on his or her own (no roommates/not in parent's extra house/etc) for a year before committing to lifelong partnership with anyone.





Well I've got that down pat so far since I've lived alone the past 4 years...I did meet this really cool girl from match.com recently that I look forward to seeing again soon..I take things really slow..I would have to date someone for at least a year or two before I'd live together.  I like spending one or two nights a week with a girl..not every night..I need me time..

I'm actually envious of NYC commuters who have an apartment in the city and a house and wife/kids near where I live(1.5-2 hours from NYC)..During the week they can have whatever they want for dinner after work and can lounge around in their underwear watching TV and on the weekends they can have sex with their wives and spend time with the family..That would be perfect..except they can't go night skiing everyday after work..doh..I guess not that perfect..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

Warp Daddy said:


> GOOD  4 U    - Hope she's an awesome woman !!



I won't settle for anything less than awesome..actually as long as she likes my humor..lol..you'd be surprised but not all women find me funny...but some find me hilarious..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 2, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Here's a pic of him with one of his latest dates. This could be considered by some as a step backwards from Matchdot.com. Just sayin.



I wish..if that was the case I would have saved $80 on a dinner at a Japanese restaurant..lol


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## RISkier (Jun 2, 2008)

ckofer said:


> As far as getting ready to settle down, I think it would be a good idea for nearly any young (20's) person to live on his or her own (no roommates/not in parent's extra house/etc) for a year before committing to lifelong partnership with anyone.



I'm not sure.  I lived alone for quite a few years.  The longer you live alone the more set you get in "doing things your way" and the difficult it is to adjust to other people's idiosyncracies.  As for fidelity, I think it's essential.  Without it there's no trust and without trust, what's left of the relationship.  FWIW, I haven't read the previous 10 pages of posts.


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## Paul (Jun 2, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Mayan calendar ends Dec. 14. 2012, FYI



You're a week early.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 3, 2008)

Bump


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## dmc (Jun 3, 2008)

I don't tolerate it...  
I hate it when I hear people I know do it...

if you don't want to be with someone.... leave...


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

Amazing, not a single cheater on this thread despite the statistics.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Amazing, not a single cheater on this thread despite the statistics.



I admitted to it.  Early 20's people make mistakes and not that it makes it any less wrong, she cheated first and there were trust issues following that. I would never consider it again with my current partner no matter how crappy things got.  I have far too much respect for her, am much more mature than back in the day and would just leave if we couldn't work things out.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2008)

dmc said:


> I hate it when I hear people I know do it...



For sure

My best friend found out three weeks prior to his wedding that his fiance slept with a co-worker.  Big huge mess, wedding called off etc.  He was living in Florida and the wedding was going to be home in Vermont.  He decides to come up anyway and take a vacation for a week and relax with friends.  We go visit an old friend down on the Cape who had spent a winter ski bumming with us. Now the guy on the Cape was well aware of what happened.  The night we show up we go to his work and he's tending bar.  This guy is married with a kid and he proceeds to brag to us that he was sleeping with both women across the bar who were friends with one another and neither of them knew.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME!  How stupid could you be to not only do such a thing, but to brag about it to a friend who was supposed to be getting married the next day, but wasn't because of an affair.  :angry:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 3, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> For sure
> 
> My best friend found out three weeks prior to his wedding that his fiance slept with a co-worker.  Big huge mess, wedding called off etc.  He was living in Florida and the wedding was going to be home in Vermont.  He decides to come up anyway and take a vacation for a week and relax with friends.  We go visit an old friend down on the Cape who had spent a winter ski bumming with us. Now the guy on the Cape was well aware of what happened.  The night we show up we go to his work and he's tending bar.  This guy is married with a kid and he proceeds to brag to us that he was sleeping with both women across the bar who were friends with one another and neither of them knew.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME!  How stupid could you be to not only do such a thing, but to brag about it to a friend who was supposed to be getting married the next day, but wasn't because of an affair.  :angry:



Hey he was a Player..you can take a player out of the game but you can't take the game out of a player...For casual dating it's O.K. to date multiple people but if you are in a committed/steady relationship it's wrong...and then there are swingers...pretty sick that a married man whose a swinger will watch another dude bang his wife..


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> and then there are swingers...pretty sick that a married man whose a swinger will watch another dude bang his wife..


Did you see that movie Summer of Sam?  I think of that every time I think of swingers... somehow I think the men are less thrilled about their women being with other guys as they are just into being able to be with other women.

I admitted to having cheated _(clarified because it sounded like I was saying I admit to having been a swinger, which I have NOT been)_ as well...but I was not in a committed relationship at the time (again, the guy I cheated on was one I had been seeing loosely for like 2 weeks and I was 17 years old at the time... not saying it's right, just it's a lot different than in a committed relationship).  I got my karma in that case because the guy I cheated with, cheated on me a few weeks later.  Something I never should have done, and I could not inflict that kind of pain on someone else now knowing how it feels to be on the betrayed end of it.


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## dmc (Jun 3, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Hand then there are swingers...pretty sick that a married man whose a swinger will watch another dude bang his wife..



Like key parties... Where guys throw their car keys into a hat and at the end of the night girls grab a set of keys and go home with that guy...


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

Wow. You guys are bad cheaters. First rule of Cheat Club is: Never talk about Cheat Club"  , lol.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> Did you see that movie Summer of Sam?  I think of that every time I think of swingers... somehow I think the men are less thrilled about their women being with other guys as they are just into being able to be with other women.
> 
> I admitted to having cheated _(clarified because it sounded like I was saying I admit to having been a swinger, which I have NOT been)_ as well...but I was not in a committed relationship at the time (again, the guy I cheated on was one I had been seeing loosely for like 2 weeks and I was 17 years old at the time... not saying it's right, just it's a lot different than in a committed relationship).  I got my karma in that case because the guy I cheated with, cheated on me a few weeks later.  Something I never should have done, and I could not inflict that kind of pain on someone else now knowing how it feels to be on the betrayed end of it.




A 2 week relationship at age 17 is not cheating..that's called dating..especiallly if you say you were dating loosely...Until a guy asks a girl if she'll be his girlfriend or vice versa..it's not cheating..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 3, 2008)

dmc said:


> Like key parties... Where guys throw their car keys into a hat and at the end of the night girls grab a set of keys and go home with that guy...




Man I wish I was invited to one of those parties..it makes 80s parties seem lame in comparison..unless Wang Chung comes on..lol


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> A 2 week relationship at age 17 is not cheating..that's called dating..especiallly if you say you were dating loosely...Until a guy asks a girl if she'll be his girlfriend or vice versa..it's not cheating..


Well, it was enough to make me feel guilty even all these years later.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> Well, it was enough to make me feel guilty even all these years later.




Did you consider yourself his girlfriend???


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Did you consider yourself his girlfriend???


I believe he did.  I really didn't.  I was giving the guy a chance but there really was no chemistry there.  It's not really him I feel badly about... it's the guy I cheated with's girlfriend at the time because she and I were friends.  But like I said, karma got me in the end because a few weeks later, he cheated on me with her.  (And we did consider ourselves a "couple" at that time... though apparently he wasn't as "committed" as I thought, LOL.)


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> I believe he did.  I really didn't.  I was giving the guy a chance but there really was no chemistry there.  It's not really him I feel badly about... it's the guy I cheated with's girlfriend at the time because she and I were friends.  But like I said, karma got me in the end because a few weeks later, he cheated on me with her.



That boy was gettin' busy......


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> That boy was gettin' busy......


Well, he certainly was cake-eating.  Not uncommon when a guy cheats.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> Well, he certainly was cake-eating.  Not uncommon when a guy cheats.



Wow, he ate the cake with the dumpy frosting. He gets extra points for that, ROFL!


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> Wow, he ate the cake with the dumpy frosting. He gets extra points for that, ROFL!


:lol:  Not quite what I meant.  :lol:  I meant more like he wanted his cake and to eat it, too.  :lol:


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## snoseek (Jun 3, 2008)

dmc said:


> I don't tolerate it...
> I hate it when I hear people I know do it...
> 
> if you don't want to be with someone.... leave...



Yeah it's not only selfish but also the act of a coward.


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

mmmm,,,caaaake , now we have a new food thread!


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> :lol:  Not quite what I meant.  :lol:  I meant more like he wanted his cake and to eat it, too.  :lol:


I have never really understood that saying .. it has never made sense to me. if you have a cake wouldn't you eat too? Somebody tell me how that saying came to be ..


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I have never really understood that saying .. it has never made sense to me. if you have a cake wouldn't you eat too? Somebody tell me how that saying came to be ..



I think it's a reference to something Marie Antoinette said about the peons. It ended badly for her. On second thought, I think she said "let them eat cake" .still ended badly.......


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> I think it's a reference to something Marie Antoinette said about the peons. It ended badly for her.


When told the people were starving because there was no flour to make bread she said "let them eat cake"... I think that's how that story goes ..


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I have never really understood that saying .. it has never made sense to me. if you have a cake wouldn't you eat too? Somebody tell me how that saying came to be ..


I googled it just for you, and the first site I found had this to say:



> have your cake and eat it (too)
> to have or do two good things that it is usually impossible to have or do at the same time. He wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants the security of marriage and the excitement of affairs. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want better local services, you have to pay more tax.



  How appropriate.

I think what it's supposed to mean is that the person wants 2 things that can't be had at the same time... if you eat your cake, you can't still have your cake afterwards since you already ate it.  Make sense?


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## Moe Ghoul (Jun 3, 2008)

So..if you have 2 cakes, and only eat one.......help me with the math here


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## severine (Jun 3, 2008)

Moe Ghoul said:


> So..if you have 2 cakes, and only eat one.......help me with the math here


Then you're a Mormon?







(No offense to anyone who is....just kidding)

I could go in a million directions with that.    I'm not going to, though.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> I googled it just for you, and the first site I found had this to say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess .. but isn't the sole purpose for the existence of this said cake is to be eventually eaten. But I know where your coming from here .. where I grew up in Maine if we were agreeing with somebody in a conversation we would say "so don't I" people from outside the area always looked a little puzzled when they heard that phrase..


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## OldsnowboarderME (Jun 3, 2008)

severine said:


> Then you're a Mormon?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No that would be the bake shop .. if you know what I mean..


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