# GPS recommendations?



## Greg (Jun 25, 2008)

Looking to get a new GPS to take along on rides. I know virtually nothing about them. I have an old Garmin eMap, but it's meant more for the car than the trail. I would like some basic mapping capability and the ability to generate track data and elevation graphs on the PC. Something small, lightweight, and water resistant. I don't think I would want to spend more than a couple hundy.

Suggestions?


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## bvibert (Jun 25, 2008)

Suggestions?  Yeah, check out crankfire.com, they have all the info you need to know.   Also check out the GPS, HRM and Bike Computer forum on MTBR.


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2008)

I have a Garmin Etrex Vista which is pretty good for hiking and has the functionality that you desire. However, there is one problem with it, it does have a tendency of loosing it's signal every once in awhile, especially in the woods. This is not a big deal for finding your way or for mapping but when it comes to average and max times it throws off the numbers. Something like the 60C is supposed to be far better for signal strength, but then you're paying for that. Try this site: http://gpsinformation.net/


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## o3jeff (Jun 25, 2008)

He should probably also say he is looking for one with turn by turn direction on the trail too!


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> He should probably also say he is looking for one with turn by turn direction on the trail too!



Right. A full on navigation system for the trail. :lol:


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## bvibert (Jun 25, 2008)

Check out http://www.geomangear.com/, seems to be some good deals there...


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## cbcbd (Jun 25, 2008)

What you basically have to figure out is: what features are important to you and are you willing to pay for them. 
What you pay for is... mapping, color screen, altimeter, compass, ability to take memory cards, etc... All of them have the same waterproof standard usually ipx7, which means you can have it under 1 meter of water for up to 30 minutes. 
I think all of the Garmin mapping GPSs have the same tracking capacity and with the Mapsource software, which comes with the GPS, you can load your track from the GPS and it will give you the elevation profile - so that ability is not really GPS specific as long as you can take a track with it.

Does it need to mount on the handlebars? Would you eventually like to use it while skiing? Would you be opposed to a watch gps? Color screen important? How accurate of an altitude reading do you need?

So basically looking at Garmins:
The Garmin Edge 605 is the cheapest biking specific one with mapping.
Of the eTrex line, the Vista and Legend lines have mapping
If they have an "H" in the name they have a different chipset receiver...basically better
If they have a "C" in the name they have a color screen
If they have an "x" in the name they have removable memory - microSD card
The Vista line has a barometric altimeter (all other ones can calculate altitude through sat triangulation - less accurate) and compass.

So I'd consider something in the Vista or the Legend depending on what you want to pay for...
The Legend would be the "low" end, and the Vista HCx in the "high end" of these.


For me, my GPS has been a fun gadget, and with it I can make take tracks of a day and put them to Google Earth images and make cool things like this (thanks to MichaelJ for enlightening me to this!):


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## MichaelJ (Jun 25, 2008)

Heh-heh. Great image!

One word of advice on the Garmins ... avoid the 70CS. If you want that model/feature set, go up to the 70CSx. They don't just differ by the presence of the expansion card; they actually have distinctly different chipsets and the difference is enormous. Una_dogger has a 70CS, I have the 70CSx, and I get a lock faster, get a smoother track, and in many places I get a signal lock and she has nothing at all.


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## cbcbd (Jun 25, 2008)

Another reminder... if you want to load maps into a mapping GPS, the maps are bought separately. 

Another note... just because a GPS device doesn't have mapping it doesn't mean you can't load your track points into the PC with maps loaded and look at your track on a map. Out of the field, back home on the PC, you can do a lot with just GPS track points and some software. Mapping is nice to have if you're going to use maps out on the field. IMO, mapping is nice to have.


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## Crankfire (Jun 25, 2008)

Check out the Delorme PN20...  it has raster basemap capabilities and I have heard all sorts of good things about them.  The only testimony I can give for one is this:  I have a Magellan Triton 500 - which lends one the ability to upload only USGS raster topographic basemaps... and apart from the unit suffering from all sorts of firmware issues, flakiness, and general POS syndrome, the raster map feature is amazing.   

The vector basemaps you can get for the garmins and magellans are pretty much trash, especially in comparison!   It does not get any better if you are trying to navigate through the woods.

Though Garmins are always a good choice.  Solid stuff, good customer support.  Their 60CSX is stuff of legends.  I have not really checked out their new colorado one yet though.   Looks funky.


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## GeoMan (Jun 25, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Check out http://www.geomangear.com/, seems to be some good deals there...



Thank you for the mention. We appreciate it!


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2008)

GeoMan said:


> Thank you for the mention. We appreciate it!



So what do you recommend?


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## GeoMan (Jun 25, 2008)

andyzee said:


> So what do you recommend?



My all time favorite Garmin handheld GPS is the 60CSx. I have extensively used it and the Vista HCx which are very similar in terms of their specifications. They both do the same things, the 60CSx is just easier.

The Edge is really best used as a cycling tool. Alas, we've sold over 7,000 of the Edge 305's and customers really love them. Personally, I have over 300 MTB rides and several thousand miles logged on my Edge. I can't leave home without it. It is a critical element to collecting my ride metrics. My first year using the Edge, I lost 28 pounds. It provided feedback which I challenged myself with. For instance, you can race a course against your prior time. 

Hope that helps. Looks like a great forum!

Thanks!


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2008)

GeoMan said:


> My all time favorite Garmin handheld GPS is the 60CSx. I have extensively used it and the Vista HCx which are very similar in terms of their specifications. They both do the same things, the 60CSx is just easier.
> 
> The Edge is really best used as a cycling tool. Alas, we've sold over 7,000 of the Edge 305's and customers really love them. Personally, I have over 300 MTB rides and several thousand miles logged on my Edge. I can't leave home without it. It is a critical element to collecting my ride metrics. My first year using the Edge, I lost 28 pounds. It provided feedback which I challenged myself with. For instance, you can race a course against your prior time.
> 
> ...




Like I mentioned in my first post, the Vista seems to loose connectivity to easy in the woods, do you think the 60CSx is better in terms of signal strength?


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## MichaelJ (Jun 26, 2008)

andyzee said:


> Like I mentioned in my first post, the Vista seems to loose connectivity to easy in the woods, do you think the 60CSx is better in terms of signal strength?



The 60CSx does an awesome job with signal strength. I always get a good lock at the start and I virtually never lose it. I've gotten wobbly in deep ravines (as evidenced by wavering tracks) but that's about it.


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## GeoMan (Jun 26, 2008)

MichaelJ said:


> The 60CSx does an awesome job with signal strength. I always get a good lock at the start and I virtually never lose it. I've gotten wobbly in deep ravines (as evidenced by wavering tracks) but that's about it.



Agreed.

The quad-helix antenna and the high sensitivity chipset on the 60CSx make for a flawless handheld as good as any. 

Reception is the single most important aspect of a GPS. If you can't receive signals, you're hosed no matter what. That's where the 60CSX excels. 

I've used handhelds since the early 90's. There were times when I threw them in frustration. No more.

Enjoy!


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## Crankfire (Jun 26, 2008)

Figure I would chime in real quick again... 

I also have an Edge 205 (sigh... I own 11 handhelds) and Geoman is right, they are very very cool little devices.  Very accurate - I use it as my primary for mapping trails - however, it is built to be a training device more than a navigation device.   Overall... sure you can navigate with it, it's just not nearly as nav-centric as the 60csx or most any other handheld out there.


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## o3jeff (Jul 11, 2008)

Greg, did you get one for your b-day?


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## ski_resort_observer (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't think a GPS in regards to rural areas are very accurate and can even kill you. Just one example....this past winter a bus group coming up to the Bush from Boston ended up on Roxbury Gap, almost went over the side but luckily just ended up getting stuck. When we asked why the bus driver went that way, it's clearly marked as a dirt road on any map, and he advised he used a GPS for directions and thats where it told him to go.

I don't have one so I would be curious for those that have a GPS that if they plug in driving from Stowe to Jeffersonville will your GPS send you over Smugglers Notch. From Warren to Lincoln does it send you over Lincoln Gap and from Boston to Warren does it send you over Roxbury Gap.

Perhaps it's the GPS......I was thinking some would know not to send you over a road which is closed in the winter some will not. From what I have heard they work great in urban/suburban areas.


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## Greg (Jul 11, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> Greg, did you get one for your b-day?



Garmin eTrex Legend HCx

It should be awesome on MTB rdes. I intend to upload each ride to Crankfire.


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## andyzee (Jul 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Garmin eTrex Legend HCx
> 
> It should be awesome on MTB rdes. I intend to upload each ride to Crankfire.



Can you return/exchange it? One thing lacking on that unit, an altimeter.


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## Greg (Jul 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> Can you return/exchange it? One thing lacking on that unit, an altimeter.



I know that. :roll: Super accurate altitude is not that important to me. Satellite-derived alt is fine for my purposes. Not worth the $50 premium for me.


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## andyzee (Jul 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> I know that. :roll: Super accurate altitude is not that important to me. Satellite-derived alt is fine for my purposes. Not worth the $50 premium for me.



So you can get satellite derived altitude? I did not know that, I guess that's cool. I figured you would want altitude for MTB and didn't realize you could get it without the barametric altimeter. In that case, may it serve you well!


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## Greg (Jul 11, 2008)

andyzee said:


> So you can get satellite derived altitude? I did not know that, I guess that's cool. I figured you would want altitude for MTB and didn't realize you could get it without the barametric altimeter. In that case, may it serve you well!



Thanks Andy. Yup. The GPS will provide alt based on triangulation which is usually within 50 feet or so. Good enough for me.


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## Crankfire (Jul 15, 2008)

Greg said:


> Thanks Andy. Yup. The GPS will provide alt based on triangulation which is usually within 50 feet or so. Good enough for me.


Also, I know I already mentioned Topofusion to you, but Topofusion can also fill in elevations if your gps does not record them or you just don't trust it.   

Of course then you have to rely on data whose accuracy could be spotty...

Ah well, glad you got yourself a gps though!


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## o3jeff (Jul 16, 2008)

My plan worked, got the Vista HCx for $200.33 with tax and shipping


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## andyzee (Jul 16, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> My plan worked, got the Vista HCx for $200.33 with tax and shipping



Nice unit, reception can be a bit spotty, but when hiking, I wouldn't leave home with out it. Good luck.


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## Greg (Jul 16, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> My plan worked, got the Vista HCx for $200.33 with tax and shipping



Sweet! It should be interesting for us to compare tracks on the same ride from the two units to see how close (or not) they are on elevation especially. Nate will be happy to hear that you'll be uploading tracks too.


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## o3jeff (Jul 16, 2008)

I am going to need a class on uploading stuff to the site. I assume Garmin give me a program that I can keep track of my rides on my computer for my reference.


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## Greg (Jul 16, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> I am going to need a class on uploading stuff to the site. I assume Garmin give me a program that I can keep track of my rides on my computer for my reference.



It does and the Garmin Mapsource program spits out GPX files (the format you need to use) which upload fine to Crankfire. Unfortunately, Mapsource chokes on GPX files downloaded from CF. As an alternative try this:

http://www.crankfire.com/resources/gpssoftware.php?linkid=1

I just use the demo version which doesn't expire, but 1/5 of the map tiles are marked "demo", but I don't use it to visualize rides, but rather just upload/download GPX files. Visualizing rides on Crankfire is good enough for me, and from CF you can download KML files that open in Google Earth. Here's last night's ride, looking southerly:


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## Crankfire (Jul 16, 2008)

Nice loop!  Looks like you got around back of Sessions huh?  Apart from them couple hike-a-bikes, nice stuff right?  Rock gardens do get a little brutal back there.  The downhill makes it worth it though 



Greg said:


> Unfortunately, Mapsource chokes on GPX files downloaded from CF.



I was looking into that just tried something - if you get a change can you try opening the attached gpx file with mapsource?  I don't have mapsource so it's a little hard for me!  

Thanks!


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## o3jeff (Jul 16, 2008)

Let me get this thing in hand, then I will look into what these GPX and KML file stuff means. Hopefully this stuff isn't too hard or else I will forever be bugging you with questions on it.:dunce:


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## Greg (Jul 16, 2008)

Crankfire said:


> Nice loop!  Looks like you got around back of Sessions huh?  Apart from them couple hike-a-bikes, nice stuff right?  Rock gardens do get a little brutal back there.  The downhill makes it worth it though



Yes, I really liked getting back there. The scrambles and rock gardens were brutal though. As I understand it there's a way to bypass that, but I don't see that anyone has upload a track for that yet.



Crankfire said:


> I was looking into that just tried something - if you get a change can you try opening the attached gpx file with mapsource?  I don't have mapsource so it's a little hard for me!
> 
> Thanks!



Will do tonight. Shoot me a PM if/when I forget.



o3jeff said:


> Let me get this thing in hand, then I will look into what these GPX and KML file stuff means. Hopefully this stuff isn't too hard or else I will forever be bugging you with questions on it.:dunce:



It really is pretty simple.


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## andyzee (Jul 16, 2008)

Love the 3d feature on Topofusion. When plotting a hike, it's great for giving you an ideas as to what the terrain will be like.


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## Crankfire (Jul 16, 2008)

Greg said:


> As I understand it there's a way to bypass that, but I don't see that anyone has upload a track for that yet.


Yeah, I just learned of this myself, but apparently right off the sessions gravel loop if you take the trail to the waterfall (that says no bikes) you can get to the top of the downhill.  

Problem is that it cuts out all that nice trail getting there....   

And the gravel loop is no fun!


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## bvibert (Jul 16, 2008)

Crankfire said:


> Yeah, I just learned of this myself, but apparently right off the sessions gravel loop if you take the trail to the waterfall (that says no bikes) you can get to the top of the downhill.
> 
> Problem is that it cuts out all that nice trail getting there....
> 
> And the gravel loop is no fun!



So you have to go straight to the gravel loop like you and Greg did the other night, but then go around the it the other direction to the waterfall trail.  You lose out on all the stuff on the back side of the marshy/beaver pond?  But you still get all of the sweet downhill?


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## Crankfire (Jul 16, 2008)

bvibert said:


> So you have to go straight to the gravel loop like you and Greg did the other night, but then go around the it the other direction to the waterfall trail.  You lose out on all the stuff on the back side of the marshy/beaver pond?  But you still get all of the sweet downhill?


Exactly, that is my understanding at least.  Have not checked it out yet though....


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## Greg (Jul 16, 2008)

bvibert said:


> So you have to go straight to the gravel loop like you and Greg did the other night, but then go around the it the other direction to the waterfall trail.  You lose out on all the stuff on the back side of the marshy/beaver pond?  But you still get all of the sweet downhill?



I really enjoyed the ride down west of the pond. That coupled with the downhill to the gravel loop almost made the hike-a-bike scrambles worth it. Almost.


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## bvibert (Jul 16, 2008)

Greg said:


> I really enjoyed the ride down west of the pond. That coupled with the downhill to the gravel loop almost made the hike-a-bike scrambles worth it. Almost.



There's some good stuff out there, I just had to get off my bike a bit too often..  I'm not sure how much I like the sounds of alternative route through the gravel loop though.


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## Greg (Jul 16, 2008)

bvibert said:


> There's some good stuff out there, I just had to get off my bike a bit too often..  I'm not sure how much I like the sounds of alternative route through the gravel loop though.



That section of rock scrambling and the rock gardens probably seemed a lot longer than they were since it was our first ride through there. Sorta like driving somewhere that you're not familiar with; it always seems longer.


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## bvibert (Jul 16, 2008)

Greg said:


> That section of rock scrambling and the rock gardens probably seemed a lot longer than they were since it was our first ride through there. Sorta like driving somewhere that you're not familiar with; it always seems longer.



That and I think we were already getting a bit worried about remaining daylight, so that didn't help.


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## o3jeff (Jul 16, 2008)

bvibert said:


> That and I think we were already getting a bit worried about remaining daylight, so that didn't help.



Exactly, we were just plowing through to get through it without much technique.


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## MichaelJ (Jul 16, 2008)

FYI - Google Earth will directly import GPX files.
A few caveats ... if they have timestamp information on each track point (the active track log of a Garmin will, but a "saved" track will not), then you can see your track over time. However, if multiple tracks are currently visible in Google Earth and they all have time information, then suddenly the time slider will disappear. Kind of a lousy interface.
Also, I recommend upping GE's vertical elevation exaggeration to 2; it makes for a much better visual.


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## o3jeff (Jul 21, 2008)

It showed up today. Just put batteries in and played with it a bit and looks like I have some figuring out to do:dunce:. Have to run out to do some stuff now, will try to figure it out later so it will be good to go for tomorrows ride.


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## bvibert (Jul 21, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> It showed up today. Just put batteries in and played with it a bit and looks like I have some figuring out to do:dunce:. Have to run out to do some stuff now, will try to figure it out later so it will be good to go for tomorrows ride.



Great, now I'm going to be the only non-GPS geek on our rides...


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## o3jeff (Jul 21, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Great, now I'm going to be the only non-GPS geek on our rides...



And your probably the only one that knows how to use one.


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## Greg (Jul 21, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> And your probably the only one that knows how to use one.



You can forget it buddy if you think I'm going to be giving you any advice...


:razz:


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## o3jeff (Jul 21, 2008)

And now I know why you were flipping through menus and stuff, there seems to be a bunch of them.


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## Greg (Jul 21, 2008)

o3jeff said:


> And now I know why you were flipping through menus and stuff, there seems to be a bunch of them.



Most of it is fluff. For what I think you're planning to do with it, the trip computer and more importantly the tracks are the items you need to concentrate on. I'll show you more tomorrow.


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## o3jeff (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks, I am hoping I have some time tomorrow at work to play with it a bit more.


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## severine (Jul 22, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Great, now I'm going to be the only non-GPS geek on our rides...


Is that a hint?


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## bvibert (Jul 22, 2008)

severine said:


> Is that a hint?



I want to get a GPS at some point, but there's other stuff I want more badder than that right now...


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## severine (Jul 22, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I want to get a GPS at some point, but there's other stuff I want more badder than that right now...


Love the grammar.


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## Trekchick (Jul 22, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I want to get a GPS at some point, but there's other stuff I want more badder than that right now...


Brian, you don't need GPS!  Carrie will tell you where you've been and where to go!

If she doesn't then, rest assured, I'll tell you where to go!
;-)


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## Trekchick (Aug 30, 2008)

Greg said:


> Garmin eTrex Legend HCx
> 
> It should be awesome on MTB rdes. I intend to upload each ride to Crankfire.





o3jeff said:


> My plan worked, got the Vista HCx for $200.33 with tax and shipping



Okay, okay, I'm starting to get the urge to get a GPS for Ski season.  Having read the entire thread that Greg posted regarding a GPS for MTB'ing, and having read the review from Philpug on Epic about his Garmin which he used/uses for his road trips, I'd like some input on the versatility of a GPS for different sport application cross overs, such as skiing/mtbiking.


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## MichaelJ (Aug 31, 2008)

I use my 60csx for everything: driving, hiking, road biking, and skiing. The advantage is the ability to have both routable (turn-by-turn direction calculations for driving) road maps and topo maps both loaded. The disadvantage is only one: the size is a little uncomfortable for sticking in a ski jacket; every time I'd bend over to buckle or adjust my boots, it would jab me in the stomach through my pocket. But still the best choice for an all-around, do-everything unit with excellent sensitivity and accuracy.


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