# Haystack / Hermitage news



## mlctvt (Apr 1, 2016)

Les Otter ha ha

http://dvalnews.com/view/full_story_obits/27144669/article-Ski-mogul-Les-Otter-buys-back-Haystack-mountain?instance=home_news_1st_right


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## prsboogie (Apr 1, 2016)

Almost!!!


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## cdskier (Apr 1, 2016)

Now that article was at least humorous...unlike the Okemo "news" which was rather boring.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 1, 2016)

April 1st article no doubt...


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## Abubob (Apr 1, 2016)

Yeah this is legit.


> The motel will include a Crisports Snack Bar selling their signature Otterburger ($19.99), and a lounge where skiers and riders can enjoy Vermont’s finest craft beers served in 4-oz. juice glasses for less than the price of a tank of gas.


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## slatham (Apr 1, 2016)

Very funny and creative. Only thing that could have made it funnier was if he planned to by Magic!


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## drjeff (Apr 1, 2016)

That was a good article in the annual "Deerfield Valley SNOOZE"


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## VTKilarney (Aug 22, 2017)

Interesting update:
https://vtdigger.org/2017/08/21/hermitage-club-says-its-getting-debt-equity-in-line/


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2017)

Hmmm........not looking good.

https://vtdigger.org/2017/10/20/hermitage-club-taps-members-pay-off-debt/#.WftibWhSy70


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## Abubob (Nov 2, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Hmmm........not looking good.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/10/20/hermitage-club-taps-members-pay-off-debt/#.WftibWhSy70


No sympathy. Really think they should open to the public. It was already a low volume area so why the heck not?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2017)

Abubob said:


> No sympathy. Really think they should open to the public. It was already a low volume area so why the heck not?



I hate to be negative, but when I heard their plans I thought that they were absurd.  But then they got things going and spent some money on some serious upgrades, but I still did not think it made sense.  Now they are asking their members to pony up.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 2, 2017)

^ This whole thing seems very bizarre to me too.


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## mbedle (Nov 3, 2017)

Like I said in the other post about this, it will never be open to the public, condition of the Mount Snow sale.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 3, 2017)

Define "never". Lot of folks once had "lifetime" passes to Killington.  A change in ownership negated that.   I'm not it needs to open to the public, but as they say, "never say never."

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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 4, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Define "never". Lot of folks once had "lifetime" passes to Killington.  A change in ownership negated that.   I'm not it needs to open to the public, but as they say, "never say never."
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


I do not know how long never is, but this is not uncommon. When Jiminy Peak sold Brodie they put in the deed that it could not be a public ski mtn again. It wad originally bought to be a private mtn with condos (called snow leaf) but that was not realistic for the location. 

It may be a # of years, but not sure.

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## mbedle (Nov 4, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Define "never". Lot of folks once had "lifetime" passes to Killington.  A change in ownership negated that.   I'm not it needs to open to the public, but as they say, "never say never."
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



True on never say never. My guess is that they put a deed restriction on the property (i.e., no public skiing and only club access to lift serviced skiing). In other words it would not be part of the sale agreement, but tied directly to the land.


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## Newpylong (Nov 5, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Define "never". Lot of folks once had "lifetime" passes to Killington.  A change in ownership negated that.   I'm not it needs to open to the public, but as they say, "never say never."
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



If it's in the deed then never is never. K reneging on lifetime passes was much simpler, the entity that owned the mountain (assets transferred) changed and the lifetime passes were only good for the life of Sherburne/SKI/LBO/ASC.


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## jaytrem (Nov 5, 2017)

I'm about 95% sure it was just a 10 year restriction.  That would be expired at this point.  Sale was announced in 2005.  Miss skiing over there on crowded Mount Snow weekends.

Quick search reveals it might still be in effect if it has to actually "operate", forgot about the buy back clause, anyway, from Deerfield Valley News...


“The winter activities and downhill skiing are deed restricted. The resort must operate for 10 years on a private basis and if after 10 years the owner (Barnes) wishes to go public, it has to be offered back to (former owner) Mount Snow. There are no plans to go public based on the investments made, and the private club has gone swimmingly, especially with the advent of opening a new base lodge.”

Fisher reiterated that the resort’s summer activities would not be deed restricted and it would ultimately be up to Barnes to decide on the public’s access.


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## benski (Nov 6, 2017)

jaytrem said:


> “The winter activities and downhill skiing are deed restricted. The resort must operate for 10 years on a private basis and if after 10 years the owner (Barnes) wishes to go public, it has to be offered back to (former owner) Mount Snow. There are no plans to go public based on the investments made, and the private club has gone swimmingly, especially with the advent of opening a new base lodge.”
> 
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR]



Mount Snow could also mean the ASC


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## drjeff (Nov 6, 2017)

benski said:


> Mount Snow could also mean the ASC


That's where it goes into the gray area. Since the parties involved in the original sale, ASC, and the previous owners of Haystack (I forgot their development companies name, but they built the Greenspring and Kingswood townhome developments at Mount Snow) are no longer involved, and at least on the ASC side, no longer in existence. So who knows how it would hold up in court should Jim Barnes or Peak Resorts challenge some issue??

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## urungus (Dec 6, 2017)

Latest news does not look good: https://vtdigger.org/2017/12/05/hermitage-club-falls-behind-payments/


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## ss20 (Dec 6, 2017)

urungus said:


> Latest news does not look good: https://vtdigger.org/2017/12/05/hermitage-club-falls-behind-payments/



Very interesting.  It's situations like these why Act 250 was created in the first place.  It sounds more like the Hermitage is screwing its self rather than the town government screwing them.


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## drjeff (Dec 6, 2017)

Anecdotal things I have heard/noticed while up at Mount Snow the past few weeks and skiing/talking with friends who are Hermitage members, a Hermitage employee or 2, etc.

#1 - last week was the first week of junior race programs for Mount Snow proper.  There are a number of young athletes, who raced for the Hermitage Team last year that are now racing for Mount Snow or the Mount Snow Academy (the Academy is a separate organization, not part of Mount Snow/Peak, and offers both weekend and full time training programs) 

#2 - The Mount Snow Academy the last few seasons has had their training on the weekends (Fri - Sun) at The Hermitage during its operating season. The Academy full time boarding student athletes train at Mount Snow Tues - Thurs (they have Monday's off snow unless it's a powder day or a race day).  The Academy is actively talking with Magic, Bromley and Berkshire East apparently to see if weekend training space for their athletes is a possibility for the season should the Hermitage not be available.  There just isn't enough hill space, without significant trail closures at Mount Snow to have the mainly weekend based Mount Snow race program and the Mount Snow Academy programs, for both programs

#3 - the rumor mill stuff.... I have heard everything from the most dire (they'll be lucky to make it through Christmas week) to the "things will operate as usual" (that rumor is based on a rumor that multiple members will float the Hermitage a loan to meet their current tax obligations and short term operating costs so that the members won't see a decrease in their own equity that that put into the club as it navigates through this issue in front of them now...) 

#4 - there does seem to be some consensus among many involved with the club, that there has been a poor line of communication between the club and its operations and it's members.  This is why, among other reasons I'm sure, that there's plenty of speculation about what may happen, and no real plan in place right now.....


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## Smellytele (Dec 6, 2017)

When things start going wrong communication always trickles to a stop.


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## Pez (Dec 7, 2017)

Sounds like sooner or later this will be taken over by Peak.


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## skiur (Dec 7, 2017)

Pez said:


> Sounds like sooner or later this will be taken over by Peak.



I don't see why peak would want haystack.  When ASC had both it did not help out Mt snow in any way.  It's not like Killington and Pico where they can be easily connected, and haystack was not a good enough of a mountain to be a stand alone hill. I see it being taken over by nelsap.


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## Pez (Dec 7, 2017)

Did ACS have a reason pass like Peak that could be used at other areas?  I feel like that changes the dynamic a bit.  I don't know much about Haystack, I skied it a bit when i was a kid in the 70's.


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## drjeff (Dec 7, 2017)

skiur said:


> I don't see why peak would want haystack.  When ASC had both it did not help out Mt snow in any way.  It's not like Killington and Pico where they can be easily connected, and haystack was not a good enough of a mountain to be a stand alone hill. I see it being taken over by nelsap.





Pez said:


> Did ACS have a reason pass like Peak that could be used at other areas?  I feel like that changes the dynamic a bit.  I don't know much about Haystack, I skied it a bit when i was a kid in the 70's.



Any ASC passes OR Mount Snow day tickets as I recall were valid at Haystack. The ASC passes, depending on their level and what year it was, were good at one time or another at Mount Snow, Haystack, Killington, Pico, Sugarbush, Waterville Valley, Cranmore, Attitash, Wildcat, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Steamboat, CO, Heavenly, CA and The Canyons, UT.  Much like the Hermitage's operating hours the last few season, ASC operated Haystack mainly on weekends and holiday weeks only (can't remember exactly if it was Fri- Sun or just Sat-Sun as the regular ASC operating days.....)

I wouldn't expect Peak to jump on The Hermitage should it go under. In the ASC days, there were significant permitting issues between the US Forest Service, the State of VT and some local land owners that prevented the expansion to connect the 2 along the roughly 2 miles of ridge line that separates them. And that was before all the additions that The Hermitage put in, all of the Hermitage's current tax issues and the ACT 250 issues they (The Hermitage) have incurred the last few years.

Plus Peak is already working on raising the $$ for the 2nd phase of their master plan for the redevelopment of the Sundance and Main Base areas of Mount Snow as well as some more on hill upgrades.

Lastly, while the writing on the wall looks ominous right now for the Hermitage, just remember that if they get 25 to 30 of their 600+ members to pay the $10k assessment, they'll be able to cover their tax issues, and I'm guessing that many of their members, who a good percentage of that I've encountered are in the finance world would see their own benefit in paying the $10k assessment so that their larger membership investment can retain some value still....  The Hermitage does have a decent number of members for whom writing a $10k check isn't a big deal at all, and for a few of the families that I know there that have kids in the race program, that $10k figure isn't far off of what they're annually spending on their kids race training and gear.....


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## xlr8r (Dec 7, 2017)

I don't think Haystack could be operated successfully by Peaks in the same vain as Powdr runs Pico.  Pico has some key differences from Killington that make it successful enough on its own to keep it profitable enough to stay open.  Between Pico and Killington, Pico has some of the longest runs, bigger continuous vert, and some of the better natural classic trails and glades.  Haystack doesn't really have anything better than Mount Snow terrain wise.  I could see someone buying it just to grab and move the new lifts that have been built there in the last 5 years (1 bubble sixpack, 2 fixed quads), plus all the new snowguns.


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## KustyTheKlown (Dec 7, 2017)

pico also serves a fairly substantial local population being 15 minutes from rutland, which is basically the big city as far as Vermont is concerned.


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## Pez (Dec 8, 2017)

OK wishful thinking on my part.  It would be nice to have another option in southern VT for me.


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## heiusa (Dec 10, 2017)

ILMINGTON — The Hermitage Club has a few days to make a payment owed for a bond or the company could lose the ability to expand due to water and sewer rights being pulled.

Kimberly Hicks, administrator at Cold Brook Fire District, said the Hermitage asked the Prudential Committee for a week to get the money together. The committee, which governs the fire district, held a meeting Saturday.

“We gave them until Friday at noon,” Hicks said.

The Hermitage runs a private ski resort at Haystack Mountain, a golf course, inns and restaurants. The sewer/water allocations, or rights, are important for building projects proposed by the company in its Act 250 master plan.

A lack of allocations would mean there’s no wastewater plan in place, Zoning Administrator Craig Ohlson said.

“I think everything would come to a screeching halt,” he said.

Cold Brook Fire District signed an agreement with the Hermitage to take out a $3.1 million loan from the Vermont Municipal Bond Bank on its behalf for improvements already completed. Upgrades were needed on Cold Brook’s water and sewer systems in order to move forward with plans at the Hermitage.

Under the agreement, Cold Brook does not make payments on the bond. The district enhances infrastructure based on development needs. Two payments from the Hermitage are due each year. In May, the bill was for about $49,000. The annual combined payment “balloons” to $320,000 in 2019, Hicks said.

The defaulted payment of $117,485 was Cold Brook’s responsibility to resolve.

“We’re trying to deter the precedent they’re trying to set,” she said. “The Prudential Committee decided that this was the way to go.”

Hicks said her group’s attorney advised that since Cold Brook had to use money from a reserve fund to make the payment for Hermitage, an agreement between the fire district and Hermitage has been defaulted. That would require payments to accelerate and could cause all remaining payments to be due as soon as possible.

Cold Brook is responsible should the Hermitage stop making bond payments. “We don’t want the Hermitage Club to fail,” Hicks said. “No one does. But we have a business to run as a municipality. We need to make sure they’re given every opportunity. I would say we have been very, very accommodating.”

As a municipality, Cold Brook has the right to hold tax sales. Hicks said future permits could not be secured without water and sewer allocations. She called the threat of taking allocations away “our biggest leverage.”

Right now, Cold Brook has enough money in a reserve fund to make payments.

“We couldn’t sustain it the way we would need to,” Hicks said. “The Vermont Municipal Bond Bank is a bank that gives these to municipalities, so they wouldn’t want us to fail.”

This summer, another bond proposal was shot down by voters in the district. Hicks said the plan involved borrowing $7 million from the U.S. Department of Agriculture but there were concerns related to the company’s ability to make payments.

Issues with the Hermitage paying property taxes and contractors have been reported in the past. In October, the company announced it would be charging members a one-time $10,000 fee on top of regular dues to “provide some relief to several suppliers and vendors in town.”

Cold Brook also recently sent the Hermitage shutoff notices, which go out once two water and sewer payments are missed. The company must pay $89,289 by Jan. 3 to avoid having services shut off.

Hermitage properties in jeopardy of losing water and sewer operations include the Clubhouse at Haystack, a golf course and townhouses that were built but not yet sold. All fire suppression systems would also be powered down.

“We plan on keeping payments with our obligations including the CBFD,” said Jim Barnes, Hermitage founder and CEO.


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## drjeff (Dec 10, 2017)

For what it's worth, from a Facebook post of a friend of mine who's a race coach at the Hermitage, they were making snow there yesterday (can't tell today by looking South from Mount Snow as it's not clear enough due to the snow flurries in the air this morning) and from taking a few runs this morning at Mount Snow with some of my Hermitage member friends who are skiing at Mount Snow today, the Hermitage had their sizeable annual holiday party for members last night, so the club is still spending money, and apparently members have been told that plans are in place to make the payments... Time will tell...

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## ss20 (Dec 10, 2017)

drjeff said:


> For what it's worth, from a Facebook post of a friend of mine who's a race coach at the Hermitage, they were making snow there yesterday (can't tell today by looking South from Mount Snow as it's not clear enough due to the snow flurries in the air this morning) and from taking a few runs this morning at Mount Snow with some of my Hermitage member friends who are skiing at Mount Snow today, the Hermitage had their sizeable annual holiday party for members last night, so the club is still spending money, and apparently members have been told that plans are in place to make the payments... Time will tell...
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



They were making snow Friday.  Saw it with my eyes from Mount Snow.  Looked like only one trail ttb.


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## drjeff (Dec 10, 2017)

ss20 said:


> They were making snow Friday.  Saw it with my eyes from Mount Snow.  Looked like only one trail ttb.



As much as most of what the Hermitage Club is about, isn't for my wife and our family, the last thing I want to see is for it to go under, as we have a number of good friends who have invested in the club, and a number of friends who either work for the Club or have businesses greatly benefiting from the patronage of members, and it's an overall GOOD thing for the Deerfield Valley and Windham County!  So I sincerely hope Jim Barnes and the Hermitage club makes it through this!!


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## ss20 (Dec 10, 2017)

Definitely adds $$$ to the valley...

You could probably confirm this but I'd imagine a healthy percentage of member's are also giving Peaks a good chunk of change via season passes or seasonal programs, correct?  That's something I wonder about a bit.


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## drjeff (Dec 11, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Definitely adds $$$ to the valley...
> 
> You could probably confirm this but I'd imagine a healthy percentage of member's are also giving Peaks a good chunk of change via season passes or seasonal programs, correct?  That's something I wonder about a bit.



By no means do I know all of the 600+ members!!

Of the dozen or so that I do know, the majority of them (probably 10 out of the 12) do also have Mount Snow passes, and over the course of the season will log probably 20 days or so at Mount Snow. Obviously a good chunk of those days are early and late season when the Hermitage isn't open. This early season more so for sure given the large amount of terrain Mount Snow has open vs the essentially 1 run the Hermitage currently apparently has open.

I am curious to see this season, especially since a number of Hermitage families with kids in the race program have switched to the weekend Mount Snow Academy race program, if I'll be seeing more Hermitage members regularly at Mount Snow this year.

Also, for sure there are some Hermitage members who I only see at races, and haven't seen at Mount Snow since they joined the Hermitage in the past


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## 2Planker (Dec 11, 2017)

Unfortunately the ASC Pass was NEVER good at Wildcat.......





drjeff said:


> Any ASC passes OR Mount Snow day tickets as I recall were valid at Haystack. The ASC passes, depending on their level and what year it was, were good at one time or another at Mount Snow, Haystack, Killington, Pico, Sugarbush, Waterville Valley, Cranmore, Attitash, Wildcat, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Steamboat, CO, Heavenly, CA and The Canyons, UT.  Much like the Hermitage's operating hours the last few season, ASC operated Haystack mainly on weekends and holiday weeks only (can't remember exactly if it was Fri- Sun or just Sat-Sun as the regular ASC operating days.....)
> 
> I wouldn't expect Peak to jump on The Hermitage should it go under. In the ASC days, there were significant permitting issues between the US Forest Service, the State of VT and some local land owners that prevented the expansion to connect the 2 along the roughly 2 miles of ridge line that separates them. And that was before all the additions that The Hermitage put in, all of the Hermitage's current tax issues and the ACT 250 issues they (The Hermitage) have incurred the last few years.
> 
> ...


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## drjeff (Dec 11, 2017)

2Planker said:


> Unfortunately the ASC Pass was NEVER good at Wildcat.......


Trying to remember what multi resort pass Wildcat used to be a part of then back in the mid 90's?? I know I used to go there and it was on my pass back then when I visited relatives in the Lakes Region....

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## 2Planker (Dec 11, 2017)

I will have to disagree,  as a 30 year Patroller at SR and The Cat, all thru the 90's w/ Less Otten's Buying Craze, WC was always a solo hill until the merger w/ Attitash 

ASC did buy Waterville, BUT that only lasted 1-2 seasons as they were forced to sell it....

 Read Downhill Slide by John Clifford









drjeff said:


> Trying to remember what multi resort pass Wildcat used to be a part of then back in the mid 90's?? I know I used to go there and it was on my pass back then when I visited relatives in the Lakes Region....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## machski (Dec 11, 2017)

ASC owner Cranmore and Waterville for not even a full year.  Cranmore got the skimobile Express out of it and Waterville just got the now shortened White Peaks Express.

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## 2Planker (Dec 11, 2017)

That sounds about right....  I know they weren't linked in anyway, cause I had to work a full schedule at each place......


machski said:


> ASC owner Cranmore and Waterville for not even a full year.  Cranmore got the skimobile Express out of it and Waterville just got the now shortened White Peaks Express.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Dec 12, 2017)

2Planker said:


> I will have to disagree,  as a 30 year Patroller at SR and The Cat, all thru the 90's w/ Less Otten's Buying Craze, WC was always a solo hill until the merger w/ Attitash
> 
> ASC did buy Waterville, BUT that only lasted 1-2 seasons as they were forced to sell it....
> 
> Read Downhill Slide by John Clifford



Probably then was just me taking advantage of the college rate then back when I was in dental school!  

A day at Wildcat was always on my March vacation week plans back then!!


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

This is not good:
https://vtdigger.org/2018/01/05/hermitage-club-appeals-water-sewer-shutoff/


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2018)

Going to be interesting to see what happens.....

Members and employees from race coaches to snowmakers tell me that it's "business as usual" so far this year.....

Heck their snowmakers made enough snow over on one of the trails in their witches expert area that they actually had a moderate sized snowmaking avalanche 2 days ago that almost took out 2 of their employees!!!


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## Glenn (Jan 5, 2018)

Wow, hope that gets sorted out. Wonder how many of the units there are own town services?


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

I'm probably a jerk, but I get a certain schadenfreude when rich people's little playgrounds prove unsustainable.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Heck their snowmakers made enough snow over on one of the trails in their witches expert area that they actually had a moderate sized snowmaking avalanche 2 days ago that almost took out 2 of their employees!!!



Well, you have to make snow when the water is still turned on.




KustyTheKlown said:


> I'm probably a jerk, but I get a certain schadenfreude when rich people's little playgrounds prove unsustainable.



Yeah, that's being a jerk.  The investors didn't do anything wrong and certainly weren't investing in something that was a bad or evil thing.


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## njdiver85 (Jan 5, 2018)

$87,000 is pocket change for a club that just assessed their members $10k each.   Seems like they are playing games, trying to see which bill they can put off for the longest period of time, with the least consequences.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

^yea, that. I just have very little in the way of sympathy for a bunch of richers who decided they were too good for the publicly available options, and their snotty children.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ^yea, that. I just have very little in the way of sympathy for a bunch of richers who decided they were too good for the publicly available options, and their snotty children.



I don't consider myself to be Hermitage Club rich, but I pay for things all of the time that are designed to give me some level of comfort.  I often pay to fly first class, for example.  I do so because it's nice not to be rubbing shoulders with the person in the seat next to you.  When traveling between Boston and New York I don't take the bus.  I take the train or fly.  On my last vacation, I paid extra for a private shuttle to the resort rather than the shared van that was included in my package.

I'm not willing to throw a stone in a glass house.  What's the point in having money if you don't spend a little bit of it on nice things.


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## Edd (Jan 5, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> $87,000 is pocket change for a club that just assessed their members $10k each.   Seems like they are playing games, trying to see which bill they can put off for the longest period of time, with the least consequences.



No need to play by the rules of the poors. Paying your bills on time is for the weak, the suckers, the losers, amirite??? It’s the age of Trump, my friends! Screw everyone you can!


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I don't consider myself to be Hermitage Club rich, but I pay for things all of the time that are designed to give me some level of comfort.  I often pay to fly first class, for example.  I do so because it's nice not to be rubbing shoulders with the person in the seat next to you.  When traveling between Boston and New York I don't take the bus.  I take the train or fly.  On my last vacation, I paid extra for a private shuttle to the resort rather than the shared van that was included in my package.
> 
> I'm not willing to throw a stone in a glass house.  What's the point in having money if you don't spend a little bit of it on nice things.



those things are way different than joining some ridiculously priced rich persons ski club that doesn't even have good terrain. no one is spending "a little bit of it" to be a member there. they are spending outrageous amounts, and I am enjoying that their little club will be kaput.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2018)

Great that they made all that snow maybe they should pay their bills. i have nothing against the members just the people running the place at this moment. I couldn't care less about what the members spend their money on nor care about what happens to the place. I care about them paying their bills and not playing games with tax payers money. I have to pay my bills and so should they.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

One thing that is definitely troubling is that the little folks in town who remain users of the water system will get stiffed if they don't pay their bill.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> One thing that is definitely troubling is that the little folks in town who remain users of the water system will get stiffed if they don't pay their bill.



exactly. Also the statement they made of "we employ 500 people you can't do this to us"


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## WWF-VT (Jan 5, 2018)

Looks like Biff and Muffy will have to have to pack a few extra gallons of Fiji Water this weekend


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Looks like Biff and Muffy will have to have to pack a few extra gallons of Fiji Water this weekend



And go over to mt snow to use the rest rooms


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Also the statement they made of "we employ 500 people you can't do this to us"



Well, let's be honest about this.  For all of you folks cheering the demise of a rich people's playground, remember that people that are very far from rich will be losing their livelihood.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, let's be honest about this.  For all of you folks cheering the demise of a rich people's playground, remember that people that are very far from rich will be losing their livelihood.



No matter how much you make - Rich people are people who make more than you. Poor people are those that make less than you.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *I'm probably a jerk, but I get a certain schadenfreude when rich people's little playgrounds prove unsustainable.*



To be more definitionally accurate, what you are is envious.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> To be more definitionally accurate, what you are is envious.



lol absolutely not. I have zero desire to be a part of a private members ski club, especially one at fucking haystack

I disdain exclusivity and privilege in a general sense, across the board

Cimarron club or Yellowstone club, maybe, at least the terrain walks the walk there. its still probably totally unnecessary. if you have the scratch to buy at those places, you have the scratch to travel all over the world to ski the best snow in the most luxurious accomodations. variety is the spice of life. and I bet revelstoke on a random Tuesday is pretty fuckin empty of other dirty members of the public. I'd much rather spend my (hypothetical) money hopping around from revelstoke, to japan, to Alaska, to chile in the summer, than having a $3mm home at one of those clubs. 

hermitage is a status symbol for douchebags. I'm good on that.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Cimarron club or Yellowstone club, maybe, at least the terrain walks the walk there. its still probably totally unnecessary. if you have the scratch to buy at those places, you have the scratch to travel all over the world to ski the best snow in the most luxurious accomodations.



It depends on what you value.  Lots of people who have money work extremely long hours for that money.  They can't take the time to fly all over the world, but they can get in the car on a Friday night for a few weekends of skiing.  Perhaps they also value the camaraderie of a club and they don't want to be with strangers every time they go skiing.  

I'm not saying that the Hermitage Club is for me, but I just don't get the entitled feeling of believing that you know best what is for someone else.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *lol absolutely not.* I have zero desire to be a part of a private members ski club, especially one at fucking haystack



Of course you are envious of their money, it's obvious.

We both share exactly the same opinion of Hermitage - the only difference is that you wish those people ill-will whereas I wish those people nothing but the best.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

I can have disdain for wealthy losers without being envious of them. thanks for telling me how I feel tho.


----------



## Jcb890 (Jan 5, 2018)

I think we all wish we could be wealthy losers.  Don't we?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> It depends on what you value.  Lots of people who have money work extremely long hours for that money.  They can't take the time to fly all over the world, but they can get in the car on a Friday night for a few weekends of skiing.  Perhaps they also value the camaraderie of a club and they don't want to be with strangers every time they go skiing.
> 
> I'm not saying that the Hermitage Club is for me, but I just don't get the entitled feeling of believing that you know best what is for someone else.



if you are going to Cimmarron or Yellowstone, you're going to some pretty remote places. I doubt any richer is driving to those places on Friday night.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you are going to Cimmarron or Yellowstone, you're going to some pretty remote places. I doubt any richer is driving to those places on Friday night.



Either I misunderstood your point or you misunderstood mine.  All I am saying is that there are many rich people who can't take the time to go from New York City to Yellowstone to ski.  But they can take the time to go to southern Vermont.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Either I misunderstood your point or you misunderstood mine.  All I am saying is that there are many rich people who can't take the time to go from New York City to Yellowstone to ski.  But they can take the time to go to southern Vermont.



ah, yes, I did misread. 

that is true, but I don't respect those people very much as skiers. choosing haystack because its exclusive, despite it being a shit hill. its a status symbol. I don't care for status symbols.


----------



## SnowRock (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> if you are going to Cimmarron or Yellowstone, you're going to some pretty remote places. I doubt any richer is driving to those places on Friday night.



If you are a Yellowstone member you are wealthy. Herimtage folks are just rich. 

I do agree re: the appeal.. its not I place for me even if I had that disposable income and must know a different type of rich person skier because most that would be in the target market for Hermitage are some of the better skiers I know and I can't imagine them being satisfied with the Haystack terrain. 

Most with the type of cash for this already belong to a club or two (at home/beach) and can afford to splurge on great trips to ski. I know there is the snowmobiling side of things which I think opens it up to a broader group, but you really need a particular type of rich person who is going to be content with the Southern Vermont location for a club like hermitage. But hell, I look at the real states prices for Okemo compared to off mountain at Stowe and maybe I am totally wrong... i was actually surprised how many members they have already, but wonder if its been harder to grow that number after the initial influx (and during a record market run which may not bode well).


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> but I don't respect those people very much as skiers.



I'm struggling to see why that matters.  It's their life, not yours.  Nobody is forcing YOU to ski at Hermitage.  

I'm content knowing that there are different options for different people.  They don't need my "respect" to take advantage of those options, and they don't lose my "respect" if they do.  I'm just happy that they, as skiers, are happy.  Don't we want happy skiers?


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ah, yes, I did misread.
> 
> that is true, but I don't respect those people very much as skiers. choosing haystack because its exclusive, despite it being a shit hill. its a status symbol. I don't care for status symbols.



Just to be clear... have you ever even skied Haystack? Ive been there four times and its really not that terrible.. 1,400 vertical, "decent" steeps and some great tree lines (I could spend days in the Enchanted Forrest alone).


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

I have skied haystack, but the last time I did was probably still the 20th century. 

its a fine little hill for a $60/day public ticket. it's a stupid ass place for an exclusive private club.


----------



## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> It depends on what you value.  Lots of people who have money work extremely long hours for that money.  They can't take the time to fly all over the world, but they can get in the car on a Friday night for a few weekends of skiing.  Perhaps they also value the camaraderie of a club and they don't want to be with strangers every time they go skiing.
> 
> I'm not saying that the Hermitage Club is for me, but I just don't get the entitled feeling of believing that you know best what is for someone else.



Dont forget the summer golfing.. Im sure that drives some of the market


----------



## djd66 (Jan 5, 2018)

I just don't get it.  $87,000 should be pocket change for a place like this.  If they can not write a check for $87K - they should be shut down.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> I just don't get it.  $87,000 should be pocket change for a place like this.  If they can not write a check for $87K - they should be shut down.



It is pocket change when you look collectively at the net worth of the members.  But perhaps the members are not willing to throw good money after bad.  I certainly wouldn't want to be writing checks only to realize that I am the last person at the party.

I suspect that they will pay the money just in the nick of time, but this doesn't bode well for the long run.


----------



## djd66 (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> It is pocket change when you look collectively at the net worth of the members.  But perhaps the members are not willing to throw good money after bad.  I certainly wouldn't want to be writing checks only to realize that I am the last person at the party.
> 
> I suspect that they will pay the money just in the nick of time, but this doesn't bode well for the long run.



If they don't pay - they should shut off all services and place a lien on the place.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> If they don't pay - they should shut off all services and place a lien on the place.



That's the way it works.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I can have disdain for wealthy losers without being envious of them. thanks for telling me how I feel tho.



Wealthy and losers are two words that don't really go together.  Some people are wealthy because they inherited it and some because they worked hard.  In neither case does that make them losers.

Last time I checked skiing in general was considered an elite sport.  I guess to people who don't ski you're a wealthy loser and so am I.  Except I'm not.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 5, 2018)

being born on third base doesn't make someone a winner.


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## Zermatt (Jan 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> One thing that is definitely troubling is that the little folks in town who remain users of the water system will get stiffed if they don't pay their bill.



Nobody gets stiffed for unpaid water bills.  That is a fully lien-able "tax like" obligation.  Don't pay the water bill we have first lien on all your assets.


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## TheArchitect (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> being born on third base doesn't make someone a winner.



I agree.  It doesn't make them a loser, either.  It makes them lucky.


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## Zermatt (Jan 5, 2018)

OCTOBER

Hermitage Club President James Barnes announced a plan to raise funding for vendor debt repayment, property tax payments, and operations through what he called a one-time membership dues adjustment. The adjustment essentially meant doubling existing membership fees for the year, which would raise $5.5 million. A large portion of the funds raised were earmarked to pay vendors and contractors who had filed dozens of liens on club properties, as well as delinquent taxes in Wilmington and Dover. 

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...ews-in-second-half-of-2017?instance=news_page


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## Rowsdower (Jan 5, 2018)

All I can say is that having, or not having money doesn't beget common sense. All parties involved here seem to be in over their heads. 

I don't have any ill will towards those more fortunate than myself, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who make dumb decisions. The owners, and yeah, a lot of the people who bought into the idea of a private ski club at Haystack seem to me to lack a lot of common sense.

And that's just it. When you ski you're likely rubbing shoulders with the entire socio-economic spectrum. From ski bums sleeping in converted buses to wealthy fundies on vacation. And you know what, you never talk about it and I never ask. It's no big deal. But when it comes to decision making? A bad choice is a bad choice and deserves criticism.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> *being born on third base doesn't make someone a winner.*



Nah, not so much as a hint of envy here.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nah, not so much as a hint of envy here.


Explain your logic. Is everyone jealous of the silver spoon crowd?

Seems to me Kusty is doing quite well for himself, travels wherever he wants to ski within reason and is generally content with his life.

I'm not seeing the"envy" because he doesn't care for the elitist country club lifestyle.  If he ripped on the gang lifestyle would you call him envious too?

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Explain your logic. Is everyone jealous of the silver spoon crowd?



What do you think the word, "envy" means?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> What do you think the word, "envy" means?


What it doesn't mean is any feeling Krusty has towards the Heritage crowd.  But you keep pushing the issue.  Why?

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## deadheadskier (Jan 5, 2018)

If anything, I think it's you who envy high wealth people.  That envy magnified because you haven't reached that status despite your self proclaimed expertise on financial markets and numerous other subjects that make you deserving in your mind of a CEO position.  You're basically projecting your own envy on Kusty.  

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Rowsdower (Jan 6, 2018)

Not everyone wants to be monetarily wealthy. Hell, lots of people would say real wealth lies in things like family, friendship and a life spent doing the things you love.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> What it doesn't mean is any feeling Krusty has towards the Heritage crowd.



When you wish bad things on good people because you despise them for something they have, that is the definition of envy. Especially when you do it repeatedly.   Do you detest the Heritage people too?  You seem pretty passionate about this.



deadheadskier said:


> *If anything, I think it's you who envy high wealth people.  That envy magnified because you haven't reached that status despite your self proclaimed expertise on financial markets and numerous other subjects that make you deserving in your mind of a CEO position.  You're basically projecting your own envy on Kusty. *



Well that certainly took an odd turn.  Do not drink and post on Friday nights!



Rowsdower said:


> Not everyone wants to be monetarily wealthy. Hell, *lots of people would say real wealth lies in things like family, friendship and a life spent doing the things you love.*



Those would be the "healthy" people.  

I grew up in the 3rd richest county in the richest country on the planet - I've known plenty of happy people who were rich, plenty of miserable people who were rich, plenty of happy people who were not rich, and plenty of miserable people who were not rich.   It is absolutely 100% true that money does not "buy" happiness.


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## Zermatt (Jan 6, 2018)

Fact, all private ski areas fail.  Some faster than others.


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## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2018)

TheArchitect said:


> I agree.  It doesn't make them a loser, either.  It makes them lucky.



Lucky sperm club.


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## jaytrem (Jan 6, 2018)

billo said:


> Fact, all private ski areas fail.  Some faster than others.



That's not a fact at all, there are plenty of successful ones out there.  Most are more low key.  But I guess everything fails eventually, so you're some what correct.  At some point all ski areas whether public or private will fail.


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## urungus (Jan 6, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ^yea, that. I just have very little in the way of sympathy for a bunch of richers who decided they were too good for the publicly available options, and their snotty children.



Careful what you wish for ... if Hermitage fails, their members - who you so despise - will have no place to go and will likely show up at your favorite hill.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> When you wish bad things on good people because you despise them for something they have, that is the definition of envy. Especially when you do it repeatedly.   Do you detest the Heritage people too?  You seem pretty passionate about this.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that certainly took an odd turn.  Do not drink and post on Friday nights!.



No, 

Wishing bad things on people different than you might make you a jerk, but that isn't always rooted in the emotion of "envy". 

I don't detest the members of the Hermitage at all. I don't share Kustys point of view.  I really couldn't care less about the situation other than I feel the ownership is pushing the envelope of their financial obligations with late payments and that's not cool.  

Not everyone wants the financial means of the country club lifestyle.  Those that do, but can't achieve it would be the people who have envy.  Not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand other than this being another example of your typical black and white stereotyping that you are known for.



Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Glenn (Jan 6, 2018)

This thread and its sentiments make me dislike the internet a few notches today. 

If you want to criticize management, the financial decisions and mistakes they made, I get that. Granted, we don't have access to their books or numbers, but it appears that mistakes were made. So, if you want to take them to task, I can understand. 

What I can't get is ripping into people who joined the club and hoping the club fails. Seriously guys? I'm sure most of of these folks made a choice to join based on what the club offered and had no input into how the company runs its finances or pays it's taxes. It's kind of like looking at a company that has top brass that makes some bad financial decisions...then you crap all over the employees and cheer when they are suddenly out of a job. 

I think any of us who ski are pretty fortunate in life. Most people on this forum are able to take days off work, drive hundreds of miles to slide down a mountain on gear that cost hundreds and into thousands of dollars. This whole activity is beyond discretionary. To rip on people for different levels of discretionary spending seems a bit trivial.


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## mister moose (Jan 6, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Too much common sense.



It would be sad to see any ski area fail.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 6, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> I think we all wish we could be wealthy losers.  Don't we?



 

Don't forget the Powerball tix tonight!


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 7, 2018)

I may not be envious of the people who are members at the hermatage, but I am envious of having the ability to drop the amount of money it costs to be a member.
If I could have that level of $ life would be ALOT more relaxing. Work less, if at all and be able to enjoy life for myself doing the things I love.
Envy does not have to be a bad thing. Wishing bad on people because they have what you don't is a bad thing.

Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Pez (Jan 7, 2018)

If I had Hermitage level money i'd buy a condo in that new Okemo South-side village thats going up.  Place looks like it's going to be incredible and the location is perfect.

luckily I'll never have to worry about any of this


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## Glenn (Jan 8, 2018)

Shutdown Avoided: http://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-avoids-shutoff-of-utilities,528885


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> What it doesn't mean is any feeling Krusty has towards the Heritage crowd.  But you keep pushing the issue.  Why?
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



because he's a dick. that's why. thanks for your posts, because you hit the nail on the head for where I was coming from.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2018)

Rowsdower said:


> Not everyone wants to be monetarily wealthy. Hell, lots of people would say real wealth lies in things like family, friendship and a life spent doing the things you love.



and this. I actively choose a lower paying job so that I can get a lot of time off and be done every day by 6. money is fairly low on my list of values. I just need enough to sleep and eat and ski. I don't need or want an exorbitant amount of it.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 8, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> because he's a dick.



No, the "dick" is the person who wishes bad things to happen to good people.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 8, 2018)

yea, and I said in my very first post that I was being a jerk. the point is I am not envious, and that you are a consistent asshole, not to hypothetical rich people, but to posters on this board. get off your high horse you prick.


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## Glenn (Jan 8, 2018)




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## VTKilarney (Jan 8, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Shutdown Avoided: http://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-avoids-shutoff-of-utilities,528885



I figured that they would make an 11th hour payment.  If I were the town I would cash that check quickly!


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## Equinox (Jan 8, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I figured that they would make an 11th hour payment.  If I were the town I would cash that check quickly!



It seems you are correct. From the article, it appears that Hermitage also has taxes in arrears. It looks as if this is the first of many hurdles for this club. I hope that they can sort this out before the area ends up NELSAP or worse. While I'll never be able to ski there, I wish them the best.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 8, 2018)

Equinox said:


> It seems you are correct. From the article, it appears that Hermitage also has taxes in arrears. It looks as if this is the first of many hurdles for this club. I hope that they can sort this out before the area ends up NELSAP or worse. While I'll never be able to ski there, I wish them the best.



At this point it seems like they are playing whack-a-mole with their accounts payables.  I too wish them the best of luck, but I’m not sure how easy it will be to attract new members now.  The NELSAP grim reaper is getting a little too close for comfort.


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## urungus (Jan 9, 2018)

Equinox said:


> While I'll never be able to ski there, I wish them the best.



If you rent a room at the Hermitage Inn or one of their other properties, you can ski there, even if you are not a member.  The rooms are expensive, but not as expensive as a membership   I’ve been meaning to do this for some time, just to be able to cross it off my list of ski areas I haven’t visited.  Might need to act quickly though, if the whole place is about to go under...


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## drjeff (Jan 9, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> At this point it seems like they are playing whack-a-mole with their accounts payables.  I too wish them the best of luck, but I’m not sure how easy it will be to attract new members now.  The NELSAP grim reaper is getting a little too close for comfort.



The reality is with as the article says, about 75% of their members paid the $10k special assessment, and in addition they did apparently up their annual dues from about 6k to 10k this year, that should put comfortably over 5 million (maybe over 7.5 million depending on how their dues are collected, i.e. lump sum options, quarterly option, etc) in liquid funds at their disposal short term, and then it comes down to can they get their real estate projects going, which based on how the club started up, was a key element in funding their day to day operations.

Additionally, they did buy a number of properties in the general Willmington/Dover area that they run as inns, restaurants, and in some cases employee housing options, that are also reflected in their tax situation that likely will need to be addressed to reflect a portfolio that is adequate for their actual needs vs potential future needs.....


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## Jcb890 (Jan 9, 2018)

Wow... $10k in annual dues.  Honestly, I can't even imagine, haha.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Wow... $10k in annual dues.  Honestly, I can't even imagine, haha.



Honestly, compared to many private golf courses, that's not bad at all.   When you look at the prices they charge, I don't think it's unreasonable at all if you're their target demographic market, and assuming you don't mind their terrain.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 9, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Honestly, compared to many private golf courses, that's not bad at all.   When you look at the prices they charge, I don't think it's unreasonable at all if you're their target demographic market, and assuming you don't mind their terrain.


Right, but aren't those usually higher-end really nice golf courses that are supposed to be great to play?  I don't want to get into arguing about the terrain or what Hermitage offers for terrain, but I think we can all agree it isn't anything crazy.

I can't imagine $10k in annual dues for anything though, more just commenting on the luxury the place is.  Nothing against them or their clientele, like I said, I wish I had the money to even consider it an option.


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## Jully (Jan 9, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Right, but aren't those usually higher-end really nice golf courses that are supposed to be great to play?  I don't want to get into arguing about the terrain or what Hermitage offers for terrain, but I think we can all agree it isn't anything crazy.
> 
> I can't imagine $10k in annual dues for anything though, more just commenting on the luxury the place is.  Nothing against them or their clientele, like I said, I wish I had the money to even consider it an option.



Hermitage is a great place to ski for most skiers though. Consistently pitched, rolling blues with high speed lifts, gloriously fancy lodges, and extremely minimal crowds. For the average skier who skis at Sunapee, Okemo, Mount Snow, that is their definition of the perfect ski experience. 

We all care a lot about 2k+ vert, rad cliff hucks, and hidden pow stashes, but many skiers don't even know what that means. Special terrain for most means corduroy past 1:00 pm. 

My father would LOVE to be a member at Hermitage for the skiing (though he wouldn't care much for the fancy stuff). He skis 5-10 days a year with back issues, but used to ski 20+ days.


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## drjeff (Jan 9, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Right, but aren't those usually higher-end really nice golf courses that are supposed to be great to play?  I don't want to get into arguing about the terrain or what Hermitage offers for terrain, but I think we can all agree it isn't anything crazy.
> 
> I can't imagine $10k in annual dues for anything though, more just commenting on the luxury the place is.  Nothing against them or their clientele, like I said, I wish I had the money to even consider it an option.




One has to also remember that for many, fresh corduroy the majority, if not all day if it's not snowing out can be a very appealing prospect as well.....

Those of us that frequent AZ aren't always the best representation of what the masses that drive the skiing and snowboarding industry actually are. The majority of us here are definitely on the fringes of the "obsessed" range of the love of our sport range!!  :lol:


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## sull1102 (Jan 9, 2018)

Having worked at the club last year, sadly I'm not surprised by any of this. They'll make it through this year and probably a couple more, but Barnes being at the top seems doubtful to say the least. I would not be at all surprised if some members got together and tried to take it over from him in some way and clean things up. The clientele here never struck me as being thrilled with the rumors always circling around about finances and other things. They brought in a few new upper management people in the fall so that will also be interesting to watch. The terrain is good if you're into easy groomers, nothing special except for on powder days with the lack of crowds. 

Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2018)

drjeff said:


> One has to also remember that *for many, fresh corduroy the majority, if not all day if it's not snowing out can be a very appealing prospect *as well.....
> *
> Those of us that frequent AZ aren't always the best representation of what the masses that drive the skiing and snowboarding industry actually are. *The majority of us here are definitely on the fringes of the "obsessed" range of the love of our sport range!!  :lol:



So, what you're saying is, even if I do win the PowerBall, there probably wont be a limited grooming 25% / natural terrain 75% private ski resort I can join.


----------



## Jully (Jan 9, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> So, what you're saying is, even if I do win the PowerBall, there probably wont be a limited grooming 25% / natural terrain 75% private ski resort I can join.



Yellowstone Club is supposed to be pretty sweet.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 9, 2018)

Jully said:


> Hermitage is a great place to ski for most skiers though. Consistently pitched, rolling blues with high speed lifts, gloriously fancy lodges, and extremely minimal crowds. For the average skier who skis at Sunapee, Okemo, Mount Snow, that is their definition of the perfect ski experience.
> 
> We all care a lot about 2k+ vert, rad cliff hucks, and hidden pow stashes, but many skiers don't even know what that means. Special terrain for most means corduroy past 1:00 pm.
> 
> My father would LOVE to be a member at Hermitage for the skiing (though he wouldn't care much for the fancy stuff). He skis 5-10 days a year with back issues, but used to ski 20+ days.





drjeff said:


> One has to also remember that for many, fresh corduroy the majority, if not all day if it's not snowing out can be a very appealing prospect as well.....
> 
> Those of us that frequent AZ aren't always the best representation of what the masses that drive the skiing and snowboarding industry actually are. The majority of us here are definitely on the fringes of the "obsessed" range of the love of our sport range!!  :lol:


I don't disagree with either response.  I was just trying to compare it to the golf course analogy where you're paying big bucks for membership, but the courses are also highly regarded in terms of their "_terrain_" for lack of a better term.

I wouldn't mind riding at Hermitage myself, it sounds pretty decent.  I just think I'd want a bit "more" if I were going to be spending that kind of money.  But who knows, tough to put myself in that mindset as I'll probably never be in that position.


----------



## Jully (Jan 9, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> I don't disagree with either response.  I was just trying to compare it to the golf course analogy where you're paying big bucks for membership, but the courses are also highly regarded in terms of their "_terrain_" for lack of a better term.
> 
> I wouldn't mind riding at Hermitage myself, it sounds pretty decent.  I just think I'd want a bit "more" if I were going to be spending that kind of money.  But who knows, tough to put myself in that mindset as I'll probably never be in that position.



Hard to put myself in the mindset of someone rich and not interested in skiing much else besides blue groomers too, haha. However, given the number of people that put in between 30 and 50 days at Wachusett and LOVE it and are certainly avid skiers, I'd bet Hermitage is plenty for them.

As far as golf courses go, I don't golf so know very little, but I always thought that country club memberships were primarily for a nicer maintained golf course (better grooming), fewer crowds, and nice amenities like a luxurious clubhouse and stuff. That sounds like the Hermitage to me, but maybe those clubs don't cost $10,000 a year and ones that do also have a famous course attached.


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## Jully (Jan 9, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> I don't disagree with either response.  I was just trying to compare it to the golf course analogy where you're paying big bucks for membership, but the courses are also highly regarded in terms of their "_terrain_" for lack of a better term.
> 
> I wouldn't mind riding at Hermitage myself, it sounds pretty decent.  I just think I'd want a bit "more" if I were going to be spending that kind of money.  But who knows, tough to put myself in that mindset as I'll probably never be in that position.



Hard to put myself in the mindset of someone rich and not interested in skiing much else besides blue groomers too, haha. However, given the number of people that put in between 30 and 50 days at Wachusett and LOVE it and are certainly avid skiers, I'd bet Hermitage is plenty for them.

As far as golf courses go, I don't golf so know very little, but I always thought that country club memberships were primarily for a nicer maintained golf course (better grooming), fewer crowds, and nice amenities like a luxurious clubhouse and stuff. That sounds like the Hermitage to me, but maybe those clubs don't cost $10,000 a year and ones that do also have a famous course attached.


----------



## Jcb890 (Jan 9, 2018)

Jully said:


> Yellowstone Club is supposed to be pretty sweet.


I just checked it out, now that looks like a private club I could get into.

I think last year at Big Sky I wound up over on that side and used a couple of their trails.


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## urungus (Jan 9, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> So, what you're saying is, even if I do win the PowerBall, there probably wont be a limited grooming 25% / natural terrain 75% private ski resort I can join.



If you won a couple hundred million from PowerBall, you could buy a defunct ski resort and run/groom it exactly as you wish.  Or even buy an existing place like Magic or MRG.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2018)

urungus said:


> If you won a couple hundred million from PowerBall, you could buy a defunct ski resort and run/groom it exactly as you wish.  Or even buy an existing place like Magic or MRG.



I like where you're head's at.

The skiing version of Cartmanworld.


----------



## njdiver85 (Jan 9, 2018)

Well looks like they made a last minute payment the night before the appeals hearing, so no water shutoffs over at Haystack to be had!


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2018)

Even with a massive Powerball win, I would probably just ski more, but not do the private club thing.  Much of the same, skiing Wildcat on weekends, chase storms midweek and worry little about hotel and day ticket costs. 

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## Smellytele (Jan 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Even with a massive Powerball win, I would probably just ski more, but not do the private club thing.  Much of the same, skiing Wildcat on weekends, chase storms midweek and worry little about hotel and day ticket costs.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



With a large powerball win I would move west. I would not join a private club as I would still cherish variety over all. Even with little money I try to ski multiple places.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2018)

I'm pretty content with year round living right here in NH. Little desire to move west.  Maybe a trip or two a winter out west, but I really can't stand air travel.  I suppose charter service would be a much nicer experience, but I'm mostly content with the skiing I get in the East.  Just have to be patient at times. 

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## Vaughn (Jan 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Even with a massive Powerball win, I would probably just ski more, but not do the private club thing.  Much of the same, skiing Wildcat on weekends, chase storms midweek and worry little about hotel and day ticket costs.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yeah, if I won Powerball, I'd be more likely to take 10 days in Verbier staying at some luxe hotel than riding Haystack like I was in junior high again. 

I wonder if Hermitage left that crazy lift where you could get off on the middle of the mountain at full lift speed?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm pretty content with year round living right here in NH. Little desire to move west.  Maybe a trip or two a winter out west, but I really can't stand air travel.  I suppose charter service would be a much nicer experience, but I'm mostly content with the skiing I get in the East.  Just have to be patient at times.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Stockholm syndrome at its finest.


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## machski (Jan 9, 2018)

With a large Powerball win, I think I would have tried to buy SR off O-Z.  Regardless, I enjoyed skiing Haystack in my collegiate years (every year our division had at least one race there).  The witches, while a bit compact, were fun.  If most of the clientele stay to groomers, those would be a blast all day long.  I hope the Hermitage succeeds in the long run.

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## WoodCore (Jan 9, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> I wonder if Hermitage left that crazy lift where you could get off on the middle of the mountain at full lift speed?



The one your thinking of was rarely used in the last years of the ASC era and torn down when the Hermitage started up. It however has been replaced with a new Skytrac Quad that somewhat follows the original line. It definitely has the mid station!


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## Equinox (Jan 9, 2018)

Jully said:


> given the number of people that put in between 30 and 50 days at Wachusett and LOVE it and are certainly avid skiers, I'd bet Hermitage is plenty for them.



Yes, I'm one of those folks that skis Wachusett often and would love to explore a place like Haystack but just can't afford the price. 



urungus said:


> If you won a couple hundred million from PowerBall, you could buy a defunct ski resort and run/groom it exactly as you wish.



If I won the PowerBall, I'd take a look at Maple Valley.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 9, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> *With a large powerball win I would* move west. I would not join a private club as I would *still cherish variety over all.* Even with little money *I try to ski multiple places.*



You could still do all that, but from helicopters.


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## Glenn (Jan 10, 2018)

Equinox said:


> Yes, I'm one of those folks that skis Wachusett often and would love to explore a place like Haystack but just can't afford the price.
> 
> 
> 
> If I won the PowerBall, I'd take a look at Maple Valley.



This. 

I'd reopen it. We drive by it almost weekly in the winter. I'd love to save that place.


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## Domeskier (Jan 10, 2018)

I would buy Xanadu and never ski outdoors again.


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## skiur (Jan 10, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> I would buy Xanadu and never ski outdoors again.



That would get boring awfully quick.


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## Domeskier (Jan 10, 2018)

skiur said:


> That would get boring awfully quick.



Did I forget to mention the sweet seeded bump lines?


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## x10003q (Jan 10, 2018)

Big lottery win - Yellowstone Club. If you ever find yourself bored with the empty 2700 acres at the YC, there are 5800 acres of Big Sky that you can ski to.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Jan 10, 2018)

WoodCore said:


> The one your thinking of was rarely used in the last years of the ASC era and torn down when the Hermitage started up. It however has been replaced with a new Skytrac Quad that somewhat follows the original line. It definitely has the mid station!



I skied haystack a good amount in the 80s and a handful of times through the early and mid 90s but I have no idea what lift you're talking about. I only remember 2 slow triples and an old double that was a bit less slow. 
Clues?


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## Glenn (Jan 22, 2018)

This one has been brewing for awhile. I remember reading about the first gentleman looking for a refund; now another individual:

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...efunds?instance=secondary_stories_left_column


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## Rowsdower (Jan 22, 2018)

Just feels like a weird decision when people can buy condos at neighboring mountains with better terrain, more amenities and generally for a lot cheaper. The whole "exclusivity" thing really only works if what you're selling is better than whats on offer to the public.


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## Smellytele (Jan 22, 2018)

Rowsdower said:


> Just feels like a weird decision when people can buy condos at neighboring mountains with better terrain, more amenities and generally for a lot cheaper. The whole "exclusivity" thing really only works if what you're selling is better than whats on offer to the public.



have you seen the lift lines at the neighboring mountain?


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## HD333 (Jan 22, 2018)

Rowsdower said:


> Just feels like a weird decision when people can buy condos at neighboring mountains with better terrain, more amenities and generally for a lot cheaper. The whole "exclusivity" thing really only works if what you're selling is better than whats on offer to the public.



People want to be able to say they belong to the Fancy Pants private ski area, it isn't about the skiing. 


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> have you seen the lift lines at the neighboring mountain?



Agreed. Exclusively looks pretty good on the weekends.  It’s at least something of value in and of itself.


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## Glenn (Jan 23, 2018)

I would guess it has more to do with the lack of crowds. I can certainly see the advantage of not having to wait in line for the chair on a Saturday mid morning.


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## sull1102 (Feb 6, 2018)

The plot thickens...

http://www.reformer.com/stories/whisteblower-complaint-filed-against-hermitage-management,531369

So they paid the water bill at the last minute, but still have unpaid taxes. Now a guy hired in September 2017 to help right the ship, specifically in regards to membership sales and real estate, has been fired after three months on the job and felt the need to reach out to OSHA about what he saw going on with illegal money dealings(which sound INCREDIBLY familiar to my sources who worked there before)... Boy oh boy, how much longer we thinking this party will last? 

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## drjeff (Feb 6, 2018)

The rumor from members that I've heard is that they, some of the majority equity status members, have a plan to keep the club out of Bankruptcy by taking it into receivership, where they'll be able to preserve assets (as opposed to a bankruptcy situation which would see likely asset liquidation to pay off the creditors), and get control away from Jim Barnes. One of the members, who apparently is a NYC finance guy, would be overseeing the taking of the club into receivership and restructuring the debt to keep the club open and operating (something most members want).

From having skied there this past Sunday, it certainly doesn't look like things are as ominous as the reports make it out to be with the full staffing levels, normal daily operations and probably 8 to 12 units of a mix of townhomes and single family homes under active construction in the general base area....


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## NYDB (Feb 6, 2018)

Everything usually goes great until it doesn't


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## Rowsdower (Feb 6, 2018)

Who knew running a ski area was this hard?


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## sull1102 (Feb 6, 2018)

The rumors don't come as a surprise at all. Always felt there were some members maybe more experienced with matters relating to the club than Barnes. Maybe they can make it work somehow, but clearly things will be scaled down. Goodbye fancy hotel up where the maintenance area currently is I would think.

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## VTKilarney (Feb 7, 2018)

Rowsdower said:


> Who knew running a ski area was this hard?



The Quiros family knows.


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## Smellytele (Feb 7, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> The Quiros family knows.



They weren't running a ski area. They were running an embezzling operation.


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## VTKilarney (Feb 8, 2018)

More troubling news:
Former Hermitage employee files whistleblower complaint
http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Fo...-files-whistleblower-complaint-473461323.html


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## NYDB (Feb 8, 2018)

Oh man, looks like this thing will end up being a giant slow motion train wreck.  

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## drjeff (Feb 8, 2018)

Barnes will be ousted soon... The club will go into receivership vs bankruptcy. The members, via receivership will restructure debt. Some of the large amount of regional properties Barnes bought, will be liquidated. The Hermitage, via it's deep pocketed member's, won't cease to exist

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## VTKilarney (Feb 9, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Barnes will be ousted soon... The club will go into receivership vs bankruptcy. The members, via receivership will restructure debt. Some of the large amount of regional properties Barnes bought, will be liquidated. The Hermitage, via it's deep pocketed member's, won't cease to exist
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



That may be true, but even if this happens it will essentially eliminate any chance of significant further investment.  The club better figure out how to run with what it has.


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## Killingtime (Feb 9, 2018)

So I got an offer through facebook to ski at a private area near Killington called Plymouth Notch. $85.00 for the day includes lunch buffet. I'm thinking Hermitage may have to start doing something similar if they haven't already and sell a limited number of day passes to get some additional revenue in. Plus, I gives them a chance to try to sell some memberships. The old timeshare sales theory, if they can get you there, a certain % of people will buy.


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## sull1102 (Feb 12, 2018)

As far as I know they are only allowed to sell something like 250 tickets a day to residents of Wilmington, Dover, and the surrounding towns. The way most people that actually live here and don't just visit their second home think about the Hermitage I don't see them selling many tickets at all, like maybe 10 total on a good day. There is no real base lodge, the clubhouse is AMAZING in every possible way, but it is very much a clubhouse like what you would find at a country club. They just are not really set up to welcome people in like a normal ski area at all. Parking is horrid, they've wiped out a lot of possible parking area with houses and condos too.


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## sull1102 (Feb 12, 2018)

Found this interesting, Deerfield Valley News has a ton of details about Barnes dirty real estate ops and the whistleblower

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...nt--kickback-plan-?instance=home_news_bullets

Starting to sound like a bunch of crooks running the show and the house of cards is starting to fall very quickly


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## drjeff (Feb 17, 2018)

Lots of rumors today amongst my friends with connections to the Hermitage that something big is imminent...

Rumors from the doors are going to be locked and employees may not get paid this next pay cycle all the way up to the finance board of the Hermitage has an offer to buy out Jim Barnes and he put a bigger counter offer back at them....

Confirmed that lifts are spinning there today and that it was crowded by Hermitage standards....

Get your popcorn ready....

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## benski (Feb 17, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Lots of rumors today amongst my friends with connections to the Hermitage that something big is imminent...
> 
> Rumors from the doors are going to be locked and employees may not get paid this next pay cycle all the way up to the finance board of the Hermitage has an offer to buy out Jim Barnes and he put a bigger counter offer back at them....
> 
> ...



Do they have Presidents week crowds there being private? Other than that, crowds could also be due to people trying to gram in a final few days there.


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## sull1102 (Feb 17, 2018)

They'll be open this week so that's a change. Not sure it will be much of a crowd, but vacation week does mean that maybe a lot of members are in town. If something big was going to happen it probably helps to have people in town. I'm sure Barnes will be around. Totally agree that there could be some more people in town just trying to get in some last days at the "club"

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## mriceyman (Feb 18, 2018)

I heard the bachelor is going there from the wife? Wonder what that cost


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## drjeff (Feb 18, 2018)

mriceyman said:


> I heard the bachelor is going there from the wife? Wonder what that cost
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


ABC apparently paid them some $$ for shooting the Bachelor there back in December. The 1st episode shot on sight aired this past week..

A members meeting was apparently held tonight, and per a member friend of mine who was at a party my family was at as well, as he put it... If they could of lynched Jim Barnes, they would have.....  And another $3k assessment for the buy out is apparently on the table.....

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## Zermatt (Feb 18, 2018)

When Ascutney failed the creditors pillaged the infrastructure of the mountain. Selling it off piece by piece. Just saying.


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## drjeff (Feb 19, 2018)

billo said:


> When Ascutney failed the creditors pillaged the infrastructure of the mountain. Selling it off piece by piece. Just saying.


Yup, that's apparently exactly why the members, many of whom are in the finance/banking industry, want to have it go into receivership vs bankruptcy.. Some of my lawyer friends were trying to explain to me how this would prevent the banks who hold the loans from selling off the assets.  

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## sull1102 (Feb 19, 2018)

That Doppelmayr heated six pack would be highly sought after on the market I imagine.

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## benski (Feb 19, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> That Doppelmayr heated six pack would be highly sought after on the market I imagine.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



New snowdon lift? Maybe Wyndham could use it to replace there main detach quad with one faster than a carpet loading lift.


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## sull1102 (Feb 19, 2018)

Thinking a short move maybe oh five miles up the road or maybe a little further north at Stratton where the new owners might want a shiny new toy and the heated seats certainly fit the clientele.

EDIT: I totally forgot about the two new Skytrac quads that are prime targets for a smaller mountain. And don't forget these lifts have the absolute minimum hours on them from weekend only ops and no early or late season ops.

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## JimG. (Feb 19, 2018)

benski said:


> New snowdon lift?



Hope that never happens. Snowdon lifts best as they are, slow and underutilized.


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## drjeff (Feb 19, 2018)

#1 - you need to throw most common logic out the door with the Hermitage and it's ownership and memberships ability to make up for the ownership and their passion and pride in their club....

#2 - IF, and it's a BIG if, some of their lifts went to liquidation, the loose rumor in the immediate area is that their bubble six pack could be bought my Mount Snow and installed at Carinthia, where post new Carinthia base lodge completion, they WILL need more lift capacity, and then move the Carinthia quad into Sunbrook....

#3 - Hermitage members cash wise.... A member, who's kid compete for the Mount Snow ski academy, at their annual fundraiser this past weekend, basically told the other folks at the fundraiser dinner auction, that he would win all the big ticket auction items (among which was a full week in a 7000 sq ft penthouse suite at Vail with a 30k retail value) bought close to 50k worth of items....

This is a big $$, big ego situation, where most common logic needs to be thrown out the window....

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## drjeff (Feb 19, 2018)

#1 - you need to throw most common logic out the door with the Hermitage and it's ownership and memberships ability to make up for the ownership and their passion and pride in their club....

#2 - IF, and it's a BIG if, some of their lifts went to liquidation, the loose rumor in the immediate area is that their bubble six pack could be bought my Mount Snow and installed at Carinthia, where post new Carinthia base lodge completion, they WILL need more lift capacity, and then move the Carinthia quad into Sunbrook....

#3 - Hermitage members cash wise.... A member, who's kid compete for the Mount Snow ski academy, at their annual fundraiser this past weekend, basically told the other folks at the fundraiser dinner auction, that he would win all the big ticket auction items (among which was a full week in a 7000 sq ft penthouse suite at Vail with a 30k retail value) bought close to 50k worth of items....

This is a big $$, big ego situation, where most common logic needs to be thrown out the window....

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## Newpylong (Feb 19, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Yup, that's apparently exactly why the members, many of whom are in the finance/banking industry, want to have it go into receivership vs bankruptcy.. Some of my lawyer friends were trying to explain to me how this would prevent the banks who hold the loans from selling off the assets.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Receivership is still part of the bankruptcy process but differs from Liquidation in how the assets are handled.


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## sull1102 (Feb 19, 2018)

drjeff said:


> #2 - IF, and it's a BIG if, some of their lifts went to liquidation, the loose rumor in the immediate area is that their bubble six pack could be bought my Mount Snow and installed at Carinthia, where post new Carinthia base lodge completion, they WILL need more lift capacity, and then move the Carinthia quad into Sunbrook....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



3.7 miles is a quite an easy move, and it probably lines up pretty well as far as line length and all those fun little details... 

One idea I had was that worst case scenario the club could realistically sell the 6 pack off to pay down debts. They could use the Poma triple that appears to be in good shape and covers 85-90% of terrain with access to the mid mountain cabin intact, witches also still easy to reach. Long term they could put in a quad, but short term why not throw up a T-bar from the cabin to the summit. The 6-pack is entirely overkill meant to stroke someones ego where it sits now. 

The 60 degree temps tomorrow and Wednesday are sure going to put the pressure on Barnes to turn on the snow guns again soon, if he can afford it.


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## sull1102 (Feb 20, 2018)

http://www.reformer.com/stories/coup-in-the-making-at-hermitage,532479

Fat lady is warming up, I mean at the very least there's got to be a 80% chance Barnes is out after this year. I agree the money is there to keep this thing going on rich people's pride, but whose going to run it or work there? 

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## Smellytele (Feb 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> http://www.reformer.com/stories/coup-in-the-making-at-hermitage,532479
> 
> Fat lady is warming up, I mean at the very least there's got to be a 80% chance Barnes is out after this year. I agree the money is there to keep this thing going on rich people's pride, but whose going to run it or work there?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



Throwing good money after bad.


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## x10003q (Feb 20, 2018)

What a shock! I cannot believe the Hermitage Club would ever have financial issues.:roll:


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## sull1102 (Feb 21, 2018)

'Rapid response' at the Hermitage C.../rapid-response-at-the-hermitage-club,532644


Fat Lady is being heard in the Deerfield River Valley tonight. Hope folks can find work soon

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## gmcunni (Feb 21, 2018)

link above not working.  i think this is it

http://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/rapid-response-at-the-hermitage-club,532644


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## WoodCore (Feb 21, 2018)




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## drjeff (Feb 21, 2018)

Pretty tame compared to some of the rumors I heard the last few days....

If there's any validity to some of them, then this situation is going to go National Enquirer/Jerry Springer-esque!!!! 

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## skiur (Feb 22, 2018)

Article says that all foriegn workers on work visas kept their jobs.....so they only laid off the local workers??


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## drjeff (Feb 22, 2018)

skiur said:


> Article says that all foriegn workers on work visas kept their jobs.....so they only laid off the local workers??



As I understand from a member I skied a few runs with at Mount Snow on Tuesday, the local layoffs were mainly seasonal employees, not full timers, so that group of workers would of been let go in a few weeks, as they normally would of been as well. The seasonal workers will fill in, albeit at lower staffing levels than they typically would have, until their season, and their VISA's end in a few weeks.

Core, year round, locals, who also work at say the Hermitage Golf Club, and the Hermitage Inn, and basic general maintenance staff, as my friend told me, are slated to remain Hermitage Employees as they usually would.  My friend also said that since that statement came from Jim Barnes, that they're no longer sure of it's validity, but the fact that the finance board seemed to reiterate this, seems to give it more weight than if it was just from Jim Barnes himself....


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## sull1102 (Feb 22, 2018)

Another day another bad story in the local paper. The Brattleboro Reformer says theres an investigation of the Club firing two guys for being gay and harassing then before that. So now multiple federal orgs are investigating this private club for the rich, that's good optics. I wonder who the last member to join was because they may be the last for some time.

As for the lay offs this is almost six weeks earlier than most seasonal people would have worked until. Also the numbers quoted in the paper of 50-80 people would have VERY few people left over unless they doubled staffing numbers from last year.


Sex discrimination alleged at Hermi...x-discrimination-alleged-at-hermitage,532668


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## jaytrem (Feb 22, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Pretty tame compared to some of the rumors I heard the last few days....
> 
> If there's any validity to some of them, then this situation is going to go National Enquirer/Jerry Springer-esque!!!!



I figured you had heard the "juicy" stuff a while ago but didn't want to add to the rumor-mongering.


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## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Another day another bad story in the local paper. The Brattleboro Reformer says theres an investigation of the Club firing two guys for being gay and harassing then before that. So now multiple federal orgs are investigating this private club for the rich, that's good optics. I wonder who the last member to join was because they may be the last for some time.
> 
> As for the lay offs this is almost six weeks earlier than most seasonal people would have worked until. Also the numbers quoted in the paper of 50-80 people would have VERY few people left over unless they doubled staffing numbers from last year.
> 
> ...



Your link posting ability leaves something to be desired.


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## sull1102 (Feb 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Your link posting ability leaves something to be desired.


Brought to you by the lovely AZ App I'm afraid

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## ironhippy (Feb 22, 2018)

http://www.reformer.com/stories/sex-discrimination-alleged-at-hermitage,532668


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## drjeff (Feb 22, 2018)

On their FB page, they say that they're looking forward to seeing their members on the hill and show a bunch of likely foriegn workers still their cleaning up their "Clubhouse"/base lodge for the weekend....

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## sull1102 (Feb 23, 2018)

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...ge-interim-president?instance=secondary_story


Barnes is out as President and done with day-to-day ops. Article makes it sound like his main job now is selling his ownership to the members.


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## Smellytele (Feb 24, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...ge-interim-president?instance=secondary_story
> 
> 
> Barnes is out as President and done with day-to-day ops. Article makes it sound like his main job now is selling his ownership to the members.



Rubin has been around since 2005 so not new blood. Not sure why they think it will work with him in charge as he was Barnes right hand man. Just seems like a puppet regime put in place to divert the light but I hope it isn't.


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## sull1102 (Feb 24, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Rubin has been around since 2005 so not new blood. Not sure why they think it will work with him in charge as he was Barnes right hand man. Just seems like a puppet regime put in place to divert the light but I hope it isn't.


Got that impression, especially once I read that Rubin was involved with the previous failed attempt at a private club between Mount Snow selling and Barnes buying in. 

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## drjeff (Feb 24, 2018)

Talked with a couple members at a race at Stratton today.. their impression was the news of the last 36hrs is good, and won't lead to anything down the road that amounts to anything other than business as usual...

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## Euler (Feb 24, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Talked with a couple members at a race at Stratton today.. their impression was the news of the last 36hrs is good, and won't lead to anything down the road that amounts to anything other than business as usual...
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


That's a bummer and hopefully not true as "business as usual" has not really been something we'd like to see continue.  The Hermitage management team has blatantly thumbed their nose at the local community by blowing off tax payments, failing to pay local businesses when lines of credit have come due, and ignoring state and local regulations/zoning issues while putting in new construction.  I don't hold ill will towards the folks who have used their wealth to purchase property there or membership in the club, but the management team has really done a dis-service to the Deerfield Valley and it's time for them to get out.


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## gmcunni (Feb 24, 2018)

*Bank files for foreclosure on Hermitage properties*

http://dvalnews.com/view/full_story...files-for-foreclosure-on-Hermitage-properties


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## sull1102 (Feb 24, 2018)

Wow. Yeah those members can say it's business as usual, but it is not. Employees are gone, few remain, check bounced when they tried to pay taxes yesterday, and oh the bank of has started foreclosure. Has anyone else ever seen anything like this? Every single day for the last week there has been another article with bad press, from bankruptcy to layoffs, sexual discrimination, wrongful termination I mean wow. These things usually are a little bit slower moving, I'm thinking back to Jay and Burke where it seemed like there were signs of trouble for months and even then it took a while for things to unfold. This seems very accelerated.

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## VTKilarney (Feb 24, 2018)

The fat lady is singing:
“The action also lists as defendants, along with Barnes and the Hermitage, about 45 individuals, businesses, and government entities that have filed liens or writs of attachment against Hermitage Club properties totalling more than $9.7 million. The amount includes a $1.5 million writ filed by Reinhart Food Service, two $1 million writs filed by individuals for residential properties, and $1.2 million in liens filed by the Vermont Department of Taxes.”


----------



## Glenn (Feb 25, 2018)

Wow. I hope they can sort things out. Unfortunately, they have a lot to go against at this point. The recent loan issue isn't going to help.


----------



## NYDB (Feb 25, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> The fat lady is singing:
> “The action also lists as defendants, along with Barnes and the Hermitage, about 45 individuals, businesses, and government entities that have filed liens or writs of attachment against Hermitage Club properties totalling more than $9.7 million. The amount includes a $1.5 million writ filed by Reinhart Food Service, two $1 million writs filed by individuals for residential properties, and $1.2 million in liens filed by the Vermont Department of Taxes.”



One can only hope the membership is eventually going to be on the hook to make everyone whole.  I know with bankruptcy, etc. that won't happen, but it's nice to hope.


----------



## NYDB (Feb 25, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Talked with a couple members at a race at Stratton today.. their impression was the news of the last 36hrs is good, and won't lead to anything down the road that amounts to anything other than business as usual...
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



that is some real spin.


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## drjeff (Feb 25, 2018)

NY DirtBag said:


> that is some real spin.


Talking to some different members today at a race at Pico, they are expecting the doors to be locked in the next few days...

Wish I was going to be at Mount Snow next weekend instead of Middlebury Snow Bowl for the VT State U14 championships, to see how many Hermitage members are at Mount Snow....

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## WWF-VT (Feb 25, 2018)

"According to the complaint, Barnes and the Hermitage failed to meet their obligation to make payments on three loans, including a $15 million "base lodge" note signed in December 2014, a $1 million bridge loan in June 2016, and a second bridge loan of $1.1 million made in July 2017. Of the total $17.1 million in loans, the Hermitage and Barnes still owe $16,342,175.61 in principal, along with $213,799.76 in interest, and $43,603.79 in late charges."

Someone at the bank is gonna lose their job now that they figured out that a customer that has made less than $700K in payments on $17M in loans was not a wise move


----------



## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2018)

Oh well. Hope Mt Snow buys it back.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 25, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Oh well. Hope Mt Snow buys it back.


I don't.  Peaks has enough financial troubles as is that they don't need to bring on more debt.  If Peaks were to buy anything, I'd think a Western property to diversify their portfolio and offer some insurance against bad NE winters would be the right play for them. 

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## Glenn (Feb 25, 2018)

Tough break. The Valley will take a hit with the loss of jobs and tax revenue.


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## bdfreetuna (Feb 25, 2018)

I don't remember Mount Snow being as crowded when Haystack was open. It's a decent comparison to Killington using Pico as an "overflow" ski resort. I guess everything is more expensive to run these days but I would expect Haystack to operate on a similar model to Pico (only certain days of the week and other cost saving measures like limited snowmaking).


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## drjeff (Feb 25, 2018)

I'd end the speculation of Mount Snow buying the Hermitage given the liens now via the bankruptcy filing. Add that 16 or so million onto the then millions to buy out the rest, and Peak would likely be spending North of 25 million to buy an overflow area.....

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## mister moose (Feb 25, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I'd end the speculation of Mount Snow buying the Hermitage given the liens now via the bankruptcy filing. Add that 16 or so million onto the then millions to buy out the rest, and Peak would likely be spending North of 25 million to buy an overflow area.....


That's not how it works if it goes bankrupt.  You either get cents on the dollar with a Judge's approval and re-organize or you liquidate to the highest bidder.  Either way, the amount of indebtedness has nothing to do with the sales price.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Feb 27, 2018)

Perhaps Les Otten will get involved, buy it, and connect Haystack to The Balsams with a really long chairlift.


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## Jcb890 (Feb 27, 2018)

Kind of insane to think of the financial problems they're having with the prices they charge to join, etc.  Crazy.
Pretty much everyone saw this coming and very few thought it would work though.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 27, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Kind of insane to think of the financial problems they're having with the prices they charge to join, etc.  Crazy.
> Pretty much everyone saw this coming and very few thought it would work though.




As I've heard many members say, the value they get for their annual dues is quite great, and in reality, I've now heard 4 or 5 members say that their annual dues should be at least double what they've been paying, if not more for what they were getting in return.

The amount of real estate in the surrounding area that Jim Barnes bought up and tuned into either operating inns, or restaurants or the airport or the golf course or even just adjacent parcels of land for future member home development, let alone the Clubhouse,the lift upgrades, the mid mountain cabin/lodge, etc, etc, etc for sure wasn't cheap.

Ultimately, what it seems like the thing that broke the camels back, is the ACT 250 violations, which put a cease and desist order on their planned base area hotel/share condos, which if I recall was going to bring in somewhere in the 30-35 million dollar range of income to the club, and was supposed to be done for this season.  It seems like that void in their income was likely what was going to be used to keep the club solvent until the phases of real estate they're trying to develop now provided income as well as what they hoped would be a full membership of around 1000 members.

If some of the other rumors that are circulating around the general Mount Snow area locals now are true, just wait as there will be some items coming to light, about utter carelessness and not just around the club finances, that will be right up there with the financial side of this...

The thing though, is that if Jim Barnes gets past his hang up that's he has to essentially be the face of the club, and accept the buy out their finance board has offered, I've heard from many people that a few of their hedge fund manager members will float a loan to the club to keep it going....

On a side note, the Hermitage's Facebook page was updated today saying that they'll be open for business as usual this Friday - Sunday (their regular scheduled operating days this week...)


----------



## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I've heard from many people that a few of their hedge fund manager members will float a loan to the club to keep it going....



I hope this would come out of their own pockets, but I'm sure they'll try to shift the credit risk to the funds' investors, who will never be any the wiser, I guess....


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 27, 2018)

As Dr Jeff says "let's blame the state of Vermont" or at least act 250


----------



## NYDB (Feb 27, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> I hope this would come out of their own pockets, but I'm sure they'll try to shift the credit risk to the funds' investors, who will never be any the wiser, I guess....



Why float a loan now (that's not in 1st position) on a dying season when you can pick up distressed assets on the cheap later on?  These guys aren't (financially) stupid.  

Worst case Ontario, you'll have to mingle with the common folk for a season or two while the lawyers battle it out.


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## Euler (Feb 27, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> As Dr Jeff says "let's blame the state of Vermont" or at least act 250



The lengths Jeff goes to in order to try to defend this club (it's management really) is mind boggling.  The managements behavior has been quite literally criminal.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 27, 2018)

Euler said:


> The lengths Jeff goes to in order to try to defend this club (it's management really) is mind boggling.  The managements behavior has been quite literally criminal.



Waiting to here about the Quiros type embezzlement.


----------



## drjeff (Feb 27, 2018)

Euler said:


> The lengths Jeff goes to in order to try to defend this club (it's management really) is mind boggling.  The managements behavior has been quite literally criminal.



I've got no skin in the Hermitage game.  I've got friends though who are members, and frankly are often far different than the image that many here on AZ think they are. And for that, I will stick up for them, since the many members that I know are nice people, who care about their family, and have been fortunate enough to make some good business decisions in their own lives along the way that have given them a very comfortable lifestyle, and they also love the same sport that the rest of us on AZ do.  If that creates an issue for you, then so be it.

Frankly, if you read my posts, I'm not defending the management at all. Jim Barnes, is a very smooth salesman, but has run the club poorly on many, many, many occasions. And now he has a number of members with a vested financial interest, pride in the club, and the desire and financial wherewithal to aloow the club to continue to operate going forward, under different terms, if Jim Barnes and his ego, choose to let happen.  Frankly, as a part time resident of that are, property owner in that area, and having many friends who live full time in that area, I am far more concerned with the economic vitality of the Deerfield Valley and it's residents than who's running the Hermitage.  It's failure, which many, frankly shallow people here on AZ seem to be rooting for, would be an awful thing for the local residents, and that is the most important thing to me, and frankly that's why I sincerely hope that things will work out, even though I am highly doubting they will anymore


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2018)

NY DirtBag said:


> Why float a loan now (that's not in 1st position) on a dying season when you can pick up distressed assets on the cheap later on?  These guys aren't (financially) stupid.
> 
> Worst case Ontario, you'll have to mingle with the common folk for a season or two while the lawyers battle it out.



Hedge fund managers?  No. Which is why I assume they wouldn’t being making these loans out of their own pockets if it is not just wishful thinking of less well off club members


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## thetrailboss (Feb 27, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Kind of insane to think of the financial problems they're having with the prices they charge to join, etc.  Crazy.
> Pretty much everyone saw this coming and very few thought it would work though.



Makes one wonder where all the money went. 


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## Smellytele (Feb 27, 2018)

Euler said:


> The lengths Jeff goes to in order to try to defend this club (it's management really) is mind boggling.  The managements behavior has been quite literally criminal.



Almost as much as he defends Mt Snow.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Feb 27, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Almost as much as he defends Mt Snow.



From trolls like you


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## deadheadskier (Feb 27, 2018)

Smelly isn't a troll.  

Identifying and commenting on questionable business practices by Hermitage and Peak/Mt Snow, isn't being a troll.  It's being a realist.

I hope Dr Jeff is right and his high wealth buddies do all hold the opinion that their ROI has been a bargain so far and they're willing to double or more their contribution to keep the club going for their families.  It's all on them now.  Barnes has been a clueless manager based upon current struggles.  The buck stops with him, not ACt 250.  The regulations of that act has been well defined for decades.  Not a good excuse

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## prsboogie (Feb 27, 2018)

There really is a general hatred for anyone who smells of the 1%ers, poor management aside, there is definitely a "hope those rich bastard fall flat on their faces" attitude around here. I don't get it. I personally can't wrap my mind around the amount of money that people have to afford to join and thrive in "clubs" like this but I do not begrudge them for being able to do so. There are much larger stakes at risk like Jeff has said, the local economy will suffer a lot, in an area where they really cannot afford to have disposable income disappear.


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## sull1102 (Feb 28, 2018)

Ya know as a full time resident in the area for the past four years now, I gotta tell ya the impact on the local economy will not be as devastating as people make it out to be. Outside a ten-twenty mile radius of the Club very few locals even know it exists, you have to say "the old Haystack" and then it rings a bell. Back when this all got going it was towards the end of the recession. Now things are slightly better economy wise. Also, Mount Snow is in a boom right now.

As for Jeff, hey the guy might have a slight tendency to fall on the side of the club, but I think what irks people on here is the constant hinting of worse things going on behind the scenes that he knows about and won't actually share. I get not wanting to spread possibly false information though.

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## Smellytele (Feb 28, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> There really is a general hatred for anyone who smells of the 1%ers, poor management aside, there is definitely a "hope those rich bastard fall flat on their faces" attitude around here. I don't get it. I personally can't wrap my mind around the amount of money that people have to afford to join and thrive in "clubs" like this but I do not begrudge them for being able to do so. There are much larger stakes at risk like Jeff has said, the local economy will suffer a lot, in an area where they really cannot afford to have disposable income disappear.



I don't want them to fail at all and hope they don't. I want the area to thrive and I don't want to see people lose their jobs, businesses. I also don't want these owners to be ripped off by shitty management. It is all about the management not the consumers of the mountain product.


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## urungus (Feb 28, 2018)

What is this place like, purely from a skiing perspective ?  Do the have any narrow winding trails?  Or is it all wide groomers?  I was thinking of checking it out before it goes under.  Who knows if/when it will ever reopen after this season.  Even if you are not a member, you can ski there if you rent a room in one of their properties, correct?


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## Glenn (Feb 28, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> There really is a general hatred for anyone who smells of the 1%ers, poor management aside, there is definitely a "hope those rich bastard fall flat on their faces" attitude around here. I don't get it. I personally can't wrap my mind around the amount of money that people have to afford to join and thrive in "clubs" like this but I do not begrudge them for being able to do so. There are much larger stakes at risk like Jeff has said, the local economy will suffer a lot, in an area where they really cannot afford to have disposable income disappear.




Well put. I'd love to be in a financial position to even consider joining a place like that. I'm not. But I don't resent people who are.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 28, 2018)

urungus said:


> What is this place like, purely from a skiing perspective ?  Do the have any narrow winding trails?  Or is it all wide groomers?  I was thinking of checking it out before it goes under.  Who knows if/when it will ever reopen after this season.  Even if you are not a member, you can ski there if you rent a room in one of their properties, correct?


  When it was Haystack, it was a really fun smaller mountain, with some narrower, winding trails.  Can't speak for what it's like now.


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## Jully (Feb 28, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> When it was Haystack, it was a really fun smaller mountain, with some narrower, winding trails.  Can't speak for what it's like now.



I doubt they've changed any of the trails. Haystack was nothing super interesting, but provided a nice change of pace from Snow. Trails felt quite different.


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## x10003q (Feb 28, 2018)

urungus said:


> What is this place like, purely from a skiing perspective ?  Do the have any narrow winding trails?  Or is it all wide groomers?  I was thinking of checking it out before it goes under.  Who knows if/when it will ever reopen after this season.  Even if you are not a member, you can ski there if you rent a room in one of their properties, correct?



Haystack is pretty much a snoozefest. The Witches area has some fun stuff, but it is short. The best thing is no people, which was true when it was a public area.


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## sull1102 (Feb 28, 2018)

urungus said:


> What is this place like, purely from a skiing perspective ?  Do the have any narrow winding trails?  Or is it all wide groomers?  I was thinking of checking it out before it goes under.  Who knows if/when it will ever reopen after this season.  Even if you are not a member, you can ski there if you rent a room in one of their properties, correct?


Having spent a little over 10 days riding there over the last two years I think I can help you out here. It's a nice midsized mountain, but can feel a little on the short side vert wise unless you're going to Wachusett in which case you'll think it's a lot of very. Overall not many wide groomers and the trails are definitely a little closer to that classic New England winding trail style as opposed to say Snowdance. The infrastructure is TOP NOTCH. You will not see a nicer base lodge, nicer fixed grip quads(those Skytrac lifts are insanely nice with rock work on the base terminal and thick cushions on every chair, nicer fan guns, or a nicer summit lift. That Doppelmayr they broke the bank for has heated seats and a bubble so it's a step up from the Bluebird. Everywhere you look you'll be blown away and find yourself wondering "WTF where did all this money come from" now we know it was poor Berkshire Bank. If you stay at the Hermitage Inn you'll likely have a smallish room, but you'll have direct lift access with the quad in the back yard.

Don't waste your time or money going if there's no natural snow. You can be 120% sure that great snowmaking system is shut down for the year so it's all on mother nature now. Like you said, who knows when you'll be able to ski it again if this doesn't work out in the members favor.  

What do you guys think will happen here? Even short term I'm wondering how members are pulling there snowmobiles from the garages if there's no staff to do so or even get the keys to open the garage. It's not your usual NELSAP situation because here there are at least 15-20 very nice, luxurious new construction full size homes that are bought, paid for, and occupied. There's also those townhouses right below the clubhouse that have been occupied for at least a few years. I guess if the place goes under completely if you own there I guess you would switch over to Mt.Snow and keep your house at Haystack with the ski trails growing in. There's little to no chance those brand new not paid off chairlifts actually stay in place rotting away, right Mount Snow home to many an aging Yan fixed grip.

One last thing, everyone saying how this will devaste the local economy, stop being silly. It will have borderline no effect whatsoever on So. Vermont. Barely anyone knows what the Hermitage is outside Dover and Wilmington. The guy hasn't been paying his taxes, the water bill, the electric bill, WW Hardware, contractors from literally all over the area. And the disposal income probably isn't leaving, how are you going to sell your million dollar house at a defunct club? You aren't, you'll just head on down to Snow. Snow will probably see a very healthy bump in weekend traffic, and boy those new condos being built at Carinthia soon will be looking nice for the rich very soon.

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## Jcb890 (Feb 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> boy those new condos being built at Carinthia soon will be looking nice for the rich very soon.


Maybe not though... a huge selling point to Hermitage Club was the exclusivity and lack of crowds.  That won't be happening anywhere at Mt. Snow whether they own a place or not.


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## Euler (Feb 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> ...
> 
> ...The guy hasn't been paying his taxes, the water bill, the electric bill, WW Hardware, contractors from literally all over the area. ...



^^^^^THIS^^^^
The harm to the local economy has been occurring for years now.  Taking goods and services from small towns and small businesses without paying is not too cool in my book.

I've got absolutely no resentment against the folks who bought property or membership.  On the other hand the management has been the rich stealing from the poor and for that I have no tolerance.


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## Domeskier (Mar 1, 2018)

It's about time some aggro club member shows up here and challenges you naysayers to a fight.  This thread could use some livening up.


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## Glenn (Mar 1, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> It's about time some aggro club member shows up here and challenges you naysayers to a fight.  This thread could use some livening up.



Could use a touch of blue...and maybe some reckless skiing.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 1, 2018)

Euler said:


> ^^^^^THIS^^^^
> The harm to the local economy has been occurring for years now.  Taking goods and services from small towns and small businesses without paying is not too cool in my book.
> 
> I've got absolutely no resentment against the folks who bought property or membership.  On the other hand the management has been the rich stealing from the poor and for that I have no tolerance.



I don't recall if this scheme started when I was still in Vermont or here in Utah (post-2011), but even from here, I felt that this did not smell right.  Barnes seemed to be talking a big game.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 1, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I don't recall if this scheme started when I was still in Vermont or here in Utah (post-2011), but even from here, I felt that this did not smell right.  Barnes seemed to be talking a big game.


What aspect didn't smell right?

What I want to know is how much risk and loss Barnes put on the line.  I don't know what his take was, but didn't Barnes sell his waste management company for hundreds of millions of dollars prior to starting Hermitage?

I think knowing his worth would really put his defaulting on debt obligations in perspective.   Did he sign checks that his wealth couldn't cash or has he refused to pay bills he can clearly afford and decided to use every means he has to screw over local vendors and the local municipality

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## SIKSKIER (Mar 2, 2018)

Best I could find was he sold most of his interest in Oakleaf in 2003 for 160ish million.


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## NYDB (Mar 2, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> What aspect didn't smell right?
> 
> What I want to know is how much risk and loss Barnes put on the line.  I don't know what his take was, but didn't Barnes sell his waste management company for hundreds of millions of dollars prior to starting Hermitage?
> 
> ...



No doubt it is the latter.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 2, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> What aspect didn't smell right?
> 
> What I want to know is how much risk and loss Barnes put on the line.  I don't know what his take was, but didn't Barnes sell his waste management company for hundreds of millions of dollars prior to starting Hermitage?
> 
> ...



It seemed too ambitious and I also wondered about the money piece as you mentioned.


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## sull1102 (Mar 2, 2018)

It's the latter. He has the money 100%. Ownership of the club is a bit murky as far as how much exactly does Barnes own vs the members. Last year I was told over and over again that the club was all set because they had enough members signed up to be self sustainable. The whole concept of him not paying off basically any of the Berkshire loans is pretty much right in line with what would be expected of this type of character... He made his money in the trash business, who else was involved with the trash business once upon a time? 

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## NYDB (Mar 2, 2018)

oh damn!  So now he's mobbed up?  

Time to bust the place out for the insurance money!


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## sull1102 (Mar 3, 2018)

The insurance thing is tough when you're self insured tho

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## bigbob (Mar 3, 2018)

The rumor I heard the other day was he was caught fooling around with a you lady by his wife and she had he locked out of all the bank accounts!


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## sull1102 (Mar 3, 2018)

bigbob said:


> The rumor I heard the other day was he was caught fooling around with a you lady by his wife and she had he locked out of all the bank accounts!



Unless this is a new young girl, which is semi realistic, that rumor is over a year old now. Practically all of Southern Vermont knew about the first go around when the girl was supposedly pregnant. 

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## drjeff (Mar 3, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Unless this is a new young girl, which is semi realistic, that rumor is over a year old now. Practically all of Southern Vermont knew about the first go around when the girl was supposedly pregnant.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


Diapers are now involved. 

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## Pez (Mar 4, 2018)

You ARE the father!


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## sull1102 (Mar 4, 2018)

Oh wow, I guess to some extent I kind of hoped for his wife and kids that wasn't the case. They always seemed like nice people and that's a tough thing to go through. 

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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

Interesting read:  https://liftblog.com/2018/03/03/as-the-hermitage-faces-foreclosure-what-about-the-lifts/

And I did not know that Doppelmayr filed a lien on the property for the unpaid lift.


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## Vaughn (Mar 5, 2018)

It might be easier to list stuff Hermitage did actually pay for at this point. 

Lifts - no
taxes - no
local vendors - no
utilities - no


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## njdiver85 (Mar 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting read:  https://liftblog.com/2018/03/03/as-the-hermitage-faces-foreclosure-what-about-the-lifts/
> 
> Based on this, it would seem the likely course of action would be Chapter 11, followed a few years later with the members buying back the club for cents on the dollar?


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## djd66 (Mar 5, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting read:  https://liftblog.com/2018/03/03/as-the-hermitage-faces-foreclosure-what-about-the-lifts/
> ...


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> njdiver85 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe that was part of his business plan.
> ...


----------



## DoublePlanker (Mar 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting read:  https://liftblog.com/2018/03/03/as-the-hermitage-faces-foreclosure-what-about-the-lifts/
> 
> And I did not know that Doppelmayr filed a lien on the property for the unpaid lift.



There has been a correction to the article.   Doppelmayr says there is no lien and the lift was entirely paid off.


----------



## tnt1234 (Mar 7, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting read:  https://liftblog.com/2018/03/03/as-the-hermitage-faces-foreclosure-what-about-the-lifts/
> ...


----------



## djd66 (Mar 7, 2018)

DoublePlanker said:


> There has been a correction to the article.   Doppelmayr says there is no lien and the lift was entirely paid off.



If this is true - it is good for the bank - as they will have a hard asset to go after.


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## sull1102 (Mar 8, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> djd66 said:
> 
> 
> > Lately Vermont ski expansions have featured fraud as part of their business plans.  :roll:
> ...


----------



## Vaughn (Mar 8, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > Shows just how hard it is to do in this state the right way
> ...


----------



## djd66 (Mar 8, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> thetrailboss said:
> 
> 
> > Shows just how hard it is to do in this state the right way
> ...


----------



## Rienq (Mar 10, 2018)

Oh, interesting


----------



## mbedle (Mar 20, 2018)




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## NYDB (Mar 20, 2018)

Too bad they are going to miss out on a great spring skiing season.  

It would have been nice sipping Kir-royale's on the deck at the lodge fer sure


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2018)

“Hermitage Club Director of Public Relations Meridith Dennes said the club intends to be open this weekend.”

This seems like a long shot.


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## sull1102 (Mar 20, 2018)

This happened last Thursday as well. Apparently they made a payment and got the okay to open this past weekend. Not part of the story Friday was the police escorting employees away from the property like what reportedly happened yesterday when they were shut down by the state for the second time in four days. One has to wonder how many more times these people will be allowed to do this by the state, the party must be over by now.  

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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2018)

You also have to wonder how many more times they can scrounge up these payments.


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## Vaughn (Mar 20, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> You also have to wonder how many more times they can scrounge up these payments.



I know nothing about the players here but my understanding is that there are some very deep pocketed people who are members and investors in this place, people who are used to and probably enjoy swimming in the deep waters of finances and takeovers. Based on that assumption, I assume there are some backroom schemes being hatched as to the best time to resolve this. If we assume there are members who like this concept of a private ski club but want Barnes out of power, then there has to be a sweet spot where his management of the club will be terminated without much conflict but before assets start getting seized by the state or local authorities. Seems like with the season largely over, these investors would do well to withhold financial support until Barnes is gone and then get it sorted out over the summer.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 20, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> I know nothing about the players here but my understanding is that there are some very deep pocketed people who are members and investors in this place, people who are used to and probably enjoy swimming in the deep waters of finances and takeovers. Based on that assumption, I assume there are some backroom schemes being hatched as to the best time to resolve this. If we assume there are members who like this concept of a private ski club but want Barnes out of power, then there has to be a sweet spot where his management of the club will be terminated without much conflict but before assets start getting seized by the state or local authorities. Seems like with the season largely over, these investors would do well to withhold financial support until Barnes is gone and then get it sorted out over the summer.




Bingo!  The majority of the members want Barnes 100% out.  He apparently doesn't want to leave and knows that he's not wanted back, and is trying to get as much $$ out of the members via whatever scheme he can devise to make it happen. Basically a big game of chicken going on, where the majority of members don't want to see assets of the club being liquidated and sold off by the bank(s).

Given that short of a few members who apparently use the gym facilities in their clubhouse regularly, and the fact that they club was approaching the season end of ski operations in the next few weeks and then goes pretty "quiet" until about Memorial Day when the golf course traditionally opens up, likely lots of behind the scenes negotiating will continue to be happening for the next 2 months or so....


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2018)

That will work only if the deep pocket savior investors can come up with an agreement that will protect any additional investment.  Call me crazy, but I don't believe that anyone is willing to lose millions just to protect their much lower existing investment at Hermitage.


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## Domeskier (Mar 20, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> That will work only if the deep pocket savior investors can come up with an agreement that will protect any additional investment.  Call me crazy, but I don't believe that anyone is willing to lose millions just to protect their much lower existing investment at Hermitage.



Agreed.  I doubt that many of the members have the financial resources to save the place on their own and those that do aren't going to sink more money into the place just to save the value of some second home.  Probably the shallower pocketed members will have to band together in sufficient number and force a buy out if they want to keep the place going and preserve their property values.  Maybe they can recruit one of the deep pocketed members to get on board after they get a firm proposal on the table.


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## Vaughn (Mar 20, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> Agreed.  I doubt that many of the members have the financial resources to save the place on their own and those that do aren't going to sink more money into the place just to save the value of some second home.  Probably the shallower pocketed members will have to band together in sufficient number and force a buy out if they want to keep the place going and preserve their property values.  Maybe they can recruit one of the deep pocketed members to get on board after they get a firm proposal on the table.



Is the club at capacity though? I was thinking the idea was that some fat cat stabilizes the place while also reseting the business model so they can finish selling to capacity and get out of the secondary real estate stuff Barnes has dragged the club into. Maybe I have my facts wrong but I thought a lot of money was frittered away on stuff which was not core to the club business.


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## Domeskier (Mar 20, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> Is the club at capacity though? I was thinking the idea was that some fat cat stabilizes the place while also reseting the business model so they can finish selling to capacity and get out of the secondary real estate stuff Barnes has dragged the club into. Maybe I have my facts wrong but I thought a lot of money was frittered away on stuff which was not core to the club business.



Don't know.  I agree that they probably need to change the business model from making money to running a club.  But since running a club is not really a money-making venture, it is unlikely that a single well-heeled member would take on this largely altruistic burden.  To overcome the coordination problem, they need a sufficient number of members to step up and agree to foot the bill for changing the club's direction.  However, that will likely cost a lot more per member than most of rank and file anticipated when they signed up, since it won't be subsidized by expansion and real estate.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 20, 2018)

Shut down

https://www.google.com/amp/s/vtdigger.org/2018/03/20/state-shuts-hermitage-club-unpaid-taxes/amp/


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## FBGM (Mar 21, 2018)

Hahaha lol’s. 

Shocker some private rich ski area failed in the most depressing corner of the state. Good thing they got that 6 pack bubble lift for all 7 people thenski there 

Best case, they liquidate. Mount Snow follows suit and sells that shit hole as well and people realize that area sucks and go ski north or west. 

Off to put $100 bills in my fireplace to keep warm.


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## MG Skier (Mar 21, 2018)

So, there may be some new/used lifts for sale? 

Unless someone with truckloads of $100 bills pays off all debts, buys it etc.....what a mess. Wish I was part of the millionaire club, but not that mess.


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Hahaha lol’s.
> 
> Shocker some private rich ski area failed in the most depressing corner of the state. Good thing they got that 6 pack bubble lift for all 7 people thenski there
> 
> ...



The amount of utter hate you display time and time again for other people is really quite sad. I sincerely hope that one day you can get past this and grow to not despise and/or judge some of your fellow humans that you come off as doing here.

May you be able to enjoy some good turns this weekend


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## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2018)

Nobody who truly cares about skiing should be happy to see a ski area go NELSAP.


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Nobody who truly cares about skiing should be happy to see a ski area go NELSAP.



Spot on!


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## sull1102 (Mar 21, 2018)

I can picture the state being silly enough to work a deal with Hermitage to open next weekend with a member or collection of making the necessary payment to open next weekend. Realistically they probably intended to close for the season on April 1st. Some of these members have quite a bit of pride about the place and want their private club open, not in the news as being shut down. Hard to invite friends or business partners to a place they think is shut down.

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## Pez (Mar 21, 2018)

Let's not sell mount snow.  I want to ski there.  


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## Vaughn (Mar 21, 2018)

Per that article, the bank wants to foreclose on the Hermitage Inn, Snow Goose Inn, Horizon Inn, the Chamonix Townhouse Village and the Hermitage golf course. 

I had assumed most members were either locals or had property at the mountain - why so much hotel room investment? This is the part that seems like could be sold off to focus on the core business. The golf course makes sense as part of the overall club though.


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> Per that article, the bank wants to foreclose on the Hermitage Inn, Snow Goose Inn, Horizon Inn, the Chamonix Townhouse Village and the Hermitage golf course.
> 
> I had assumed most members were either locals or had property at the mountain - why so much hotel room investment? This is the part that seems like could be sold off to focus on the core business. The golf course makes sense as part of the overall club though.



The initial slew of buying up local hotels and Inns was supposed to be for a combination of seasonal employee housing and weekend member rental properties while their planned base area hotel and/or private on property homes/townhomes were built. Multiple Inn/Hotel owners took Jim Barnes up on his offers to buy them out, for what was rumored to be somewhat above true market value, many of the transactions were closed on a few years ago when the economy wasn't where it is today and when the Valley as a whole was still much closer to the devastating effects that Irene had.

The golf course, while in my opinion is a more fun to play/interesting course than the Mount Snow golf club, has never been even close to what would constitute a "busy" golf course. They have been operating it as "members only on Friday-Sunday" and open to the public and members (with members being able to book tee times a few days before the general public) Monday - Thursday.  The reality is though while it's nice for the golfing community in the area to have 2 18 holes courses within a couple of miles of each other, the reality is that probably 95% of the time, there the demand there for only 1, and many Hermitage Members, who are golfers, likely belong to far nicer courses by their primary residence than the Hermitage Golf Club currently is


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## sull1102 (Mar 21, 2018)

At least one of the hotels was being looked at as a timeshare type membership and plans are fully drawn up, shovel ready as they say with a permit or two still needed. The plan was to sell these rooms and then build another hotel where the ski school tent has been up at the clubhouse. They have started some basic work on some townhouses matching the already built ones all behind the clubhouse headed downhill. These were for future members to bring in more fees and keep the charade going.

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## fullsend22 (Mar 21, 2018)

Anyone want to go poach all the fresh Pow that is on the mountain now that they are closed down?


----------



## FBGM (Mar 21, 2018)

Will the laid off employees have to resort to the only profitable job in the area...selling Heroin. 

But for realz dentist jeff, besides the fact you hold peckers with the rich folk there, did ya really think a private ski area in that location was gonna meal was it?? This was bound to happen.


----------



## skiur (Mar 21, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Will the laid off employees have to resort to the only profitable job in the area...selling Heroin.
> 
> But for realz dentist jeff, besides the fact you hold peckers with the rich folk there, did ya really think a private ski area in that location was gonna meal was it?? This was bound to happen.



Are you like 12? I hope so cause if your an adult than there is no hope for you.


----------



## Newpylong (Mar 21, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Will the laid off employees have to resort to the only profitable job in the area...selling Heroin.
> 
> But for realz dentist jeff, besides the fact you hold peckers with the rich folk there, did ya really think a private ski area in that location was gonna meal was it?? This was bound to happen.



Not really. If they didn't put in 2 quads, 1 6 pack bubble, and 100% snowmaking in in the first few years it in all likelihood could have worked. They certainly weren't coming up shy selling memberships.


----------



## mister moose (Mar 21, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Not really. If they didn't put in 2 quads, 1 6 pack bubble, and 100% snowmaking in in the first few years it in all likelihood could have worked. They certainly weren't coming up shy selling memberships.



Ayuh. Even in private clubs, capital allocation counts.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 21, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Not really. If they didn't put in 2 quads, 1 6 pack bubble, and 100% snowmaking in in the first few years it in all likelihood could have worked. They certainly weren't coming up shy selling memberships.


They most certainly didn't expand to 100% snowmaking.... Unless of course they buried a bunch of pipe and disguised the turrents as tree trunks when I was there mid Feb for a kids race this season... 

Even a few of my member friends said that their biggest issue was their annual fees were too low for what they got, and likely so to drive real estate sales....

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## sull1102 (Mar 22, 2018)

Post on Instagram this morning suggest the club will be open this weekend. "It's going to be a beautiful weekend! Enjoy! #youbelonghere" 

Interesting...

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## Newpylong (Mar 22, 2018)

drjeff said:


> They most certainly didn't expand to 100% snowmaking.... Unless of course they buried a bunch of pipe and disguised the turrents as tree trunks when I was there mid Feb for a kids race this season...
> 
> Even a few of my member friends said that their biggest issue was their annual fees were too low for what they got, and likely so to drive real estate sales....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Take it from someone who used to ski Haystack quite a bit when they were owned by MS (I lived less than an hour away) the snowmaking capabilities now vs when Haystack closed are incomparable. All the Techno Alpins, Baby Rats, HKDs, were a huge investment. I imagine they will be some of the first items liquidated to pay creditors. They may not have expanded the actual foot print (outside of the trail down to the Inn and the Lower Mountain) but the inventory on current coverage is the most expensive factor. 4 of those TF40's new cost the same as replacing a mile of pipe alone. Regardless the only real significant terrain missing snow making is a couple runs over on Witches.

I imagine the actual usage began to decrease this year as the coffers dried up.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 22, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> TRegardless the only real significant terrain missing snow making is a couple runs over on Witches.



Mt Snow actually installed snowmaking on one of the expert trails a few years before they closed.  That left only one expert trail without it.  I can't remember if the beginner or intermediate had snowmaking.  For some reason I'm thinking the beginner didn't, but could be wrong.


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## sull1102 (Mar 22, 2018)

Beginner does not, but the intermediate run down does have it.

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## drjeff (Mar 22, 2018)

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...er-making-tax-payment?instance=home_news_left

And the lights apparently are back on again for the weekend..... From the Deerfield Valley News


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## cdskier (Mar 22, 2018)

drjeff said:


> http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...er-making-tax-payment?instance=home_news_left
> 
> And the lights apparently are back on again for the weekend..... From the Deerfield Valley News





> The weeklong saga unfolded on Thursday, March 15, when the club was shut down by the tax department after it failed to meet the terms of a payment agreement for unpaid rooms, meals, sales, and use taxes.



Yikes...those are taxes no business should ever be behind on. They collect that money as part of the sale/transaction but it is not yours to use elsewhere to cover some other shortfalls in cash. You're merely collecting it from your customers on behalf of the state.


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## Jully (Mar 22, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yikes...those are taxes no business should ever be behind on. They collect that money as part of the sale/transaction but it is not yours to use elsewhere to cover some other shortfalls in cash. You're merely collecting it from your customers on behalf of the state.



HAHAHAHA you're absolutely right. Wtf, so the club was just grabbing an extra 6.25% on all list prices or whatever the sales tax is in VT. That is rich.


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## Smellytele (Mar 22, 2018)

Reading the article it is hard to tell what they owe. 16.5m to the bank, 9.1m to others and 819k in taxes. Maybe


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## Euler (Mar 22, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Yikes...those are taxes no business should ever be behind on. They collect that money as part of the sale/transaction but it is not yours to use elsewhere to cover some other shortfalls in cash. You're merely collecting it from your customers on behalf of the state.


It's incomprehensible to me why this business is allowed to continue to operate.  White collar criminals belong in jail.


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## FBGM (Mar 23, 2018)

Maybe they should start a go fund me page like Mt snow did. 

Hi all, we don’t have the money, but have big plans. So please give me the monies and then the US of A will give you a green card. 

They will all go down in flames eventually. Bye bye. 

GoFundYourself out


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## sull1102 (Mar 23, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Maybe they should start a go fund me page like Mt snow did.
> 
> Hi all, we don’t have the money, but have big plans. So please give me the monies and then the US of A will give you a green card.
> 
> ...


? Mount Snow had a GoFundMe page for something? 

Mods...come on now, this guy has added nothing to the forums in any way can't we cut the cancer off now?

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## VTKilarney (Mar 23, 2018)

And Mt. Snow is an example of how to do EB-5 right.


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> ? Mount Snow had a GoFundMe page for something?
> 
> Mods...come on now, this guy has added nothing to the forums in any way can't we cut the cancer off now?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



He is just saying eb-5 is like a gofundme page.


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> And Mt. Snow is an example of how to do EB-5 right.



for now...


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## drjeff (Mar 23, 2018)

Euler said:


> It's incomprehensible to me why this business is allowed to continue to operate.  White collar criminals belong in jail.



At its essence, its all about the ugly nature of modern politics and the taxes that the government receives (even if late, the state obviously deems the Hermitage to be an acceptable risk, in how it looks at collecting those millions)  Those millions, even if collected late, are millions for the government's coiffures, money which they then get to dole out in ways that often end up being tied to an elected officials voter base "popularity" to help with their re-election efforts.

So the Hermitage, which is obvious has some issues with its management, is a risk the state is willing to work with to allow them to pay (hopefully) what they owe in taxes, as well as (hopefully) continue to operate and develop some real estate, which will further increase the tax base, and likely increase the amount of taxes collected.

A person or small business who owes far less, isn't as likely to get the sympathetic view that the larger owing Hermitage Club is.... Just simply more return is likely for less effort. Right or wrong, fully open for debate. The reality is that collected tax money to most every politician is equivalent to crack to an addict.  They can never get enough...


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 23, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> for now...



Yeah I'm sure they are watching these scandals (Jay, Saddleback) and are just licking their chops to get on the front page of the news...... STFU troll


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## skiur (Mar 23, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> ? Mount Snow had a GoFundMe page for something?
> 
> Mods...come on now, this guy has added nothing to the forums in any way can't we cut the cancer off now?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



I'm against banning people no matter how big of an asshole they are.


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Yeah I'm sure they are watching these scandals (Jay, Saddleback) and are just licking their chops to get on the front page of the news...... STFU troll



Angry elf you are. No Troll here. Nothing against Mt Snow it is just the EB-5 government initiative that just seems to be the issue. Not just for ski areas but other projects as well across the US


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Angry elf you are. No Troll here. Nothing against Mt Snow it is just the EB-5 government initiative that just seems to be the issue. Not just for ski areas but other projects as well across the US


Can't disagree there.  The whole EB-5 thing is super shady on all fronts, not just for ski areas.


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## FBGM (Mar 23, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> ? Mount Snow had a GoFundMe page for something?
> 
> Mods...come on now, this guy has added nothing to the forums in any way can't we cut the cancer off now?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



Why, because I’m bringing up a topic you don’t like? And you get your panties in a bunch? You sound like not my president. 

EB-5 is a go fund me. Peak resorts asked for money because they didn’t have it. And still don’t. And no bank is giving them a loan that big when their company isn’t worth jack. 

But that private place next to the crap hole should try the same. Get some funny money. Go wild

But internet’s serious stuff bro. Should kick me off because of my opinion.


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## Jcb890 (Mar 23, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Why, because I’m bringing up a topic you don’t like? And you get your panties in a bunch? You sound like not my president.
> 
> EB-5 is a go fund me. Peak resorts asked for money because they didn’t have it. And still don’t. And no bank is giving them a loan that big when their company isn’t worth jack.
> 
> ...


Nobody is annoyed with you because of your opinion.  It is your delivery.  You come off like a jerk with a grudge against Mt. Snow for no reason.


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## njdiver85 (Mar 23, 2018)

FBGM said:


> But internet’s serious stuff bro. Should kick me off because of my opinion.



Of course not.  Mods should kick you off because you're misinformed and obnoxious.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2018)

my grudge against mt snow is that it sucks.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Mar 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> my grudge against mt snow is that it sucks.



Then you must hate empty woods, great crowd control (-bubble), bumps, apres scene and a management that actually listens to its skiers....... and oh wait also the most economical season pass in the East? Damn that place sucks so much. 

Ill give you a recommendation... the bush has plenty of small children you can beat up on but be sure to bring some oxygen canisters cause the elevation sickness really gets to you up there.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 23, 2018)

lol. mount snow objectively has no pitch. the front side is all the same boring football field sized groomer, over and over again. I find plenty of empty woods elsewhere, and don't need any pampered bubble crap.


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2018)

How did this turn into my dick is bigger than your dick (my mtn is better than your mtn) thread? We have plenty of those involving Mt Snow already.


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## benski (Mar 23, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> lol. mount snow objectively has no pitch. the front side is all the same boring football field sized groomer, over and over again. I find plenty of empty woods elsewhere, and don't need any pampered bubble crap.



Its really nice to ski on the Grand summit, and turn around and see 15 minuet lines to get to the same place.


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## asnowmobiler (Mar 23, 2018)

Not everyone is as talented and as cool as you, I really enjoy the place.


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## Vaughn (Mar 23, 2018)

Well, if the bank is looking at a serious haircut on this debt a new ownership group can probably effectively get the same assets as a discounted rate at the end of the day. Barnes and his team get turfed out and the core ski mountain club can relaunch. Sucks for the bank and the other lenders but that's the banking business, right?


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## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> Well, if the bank is looking at a serious haircut on this debt a new ownership group can probably effectively get the same assets as a discounted rate at the end of the day. Barnes and his team get turfed out and the core ski mountain club can relaunch. Sucks for the bank and the other lenders but that's the banking business, right?



They owe money to the lift manufacturer as well or so i thought I read somewhere so they could lose the lift.


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## drjeff (Mar 24, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> They owe money to the lift manufacturer as well or so i thought I read somewhere so they could lose the lift.


That rumor was actually false. Both Sky Trac and Dopplymayr apparently were paid in full.  The outstanding debts are apparently related to construction of their lodge and food and beverage suppliers for the most part

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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2018)

Seems to me that whatever change in business plan is employed, there should be some component of public access for additional revenue streams.  Maybe make available 200 tickets a day at a high cost via online reservations only.  Lets go with $150.  That would bring in 60K a weekend plus F&B on top.  That would go along ways towards covering operating costs while still maintaining a private type experience. 

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## Vaughn (Mar 24, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Seems to me that whatever change in business plan is employed, there should be some component of public access for additional revenue streams.  Maybe make available 200 tickets a day at a high cost via online reservations only.  Lets go with $150.  That would bring in 60K a weekend plus F&B on top.  That would go along ways towards covering operating costs while still maintaining a private type experience.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I liked Haystack when I was a kid because it was a fun mountain to bomb around on but I think people would have a hard time paying more than a top level mountain ticket for that terrain and vertical. I'd rather spend $150 to ski Magic than Haystack for example assuming similar crowds. However I am considering this from the perspective of someone who can get to places like WV, Loon, Cannon, etc... in 2 hours or so. If I was a NYC/CT skier, I think the value equation would be very different.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2018)

Right. I'm thinking of people who are for the lack of a better word "stuck" skiing Southern VT and are high earners.  Magic would be my choice due to terrain and uncrowded slopes.  But for those who seek out mellow terrain like Snow, Stratton and Okemo, being able to ditch the crowds while having the same commute for an extra $50?  I bet there's a market for that

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## sull1102 (Mar 24, 2018)

Mount Snow put it into the deed that Haystack cannot be a public ski area. However, they are allowed and do sell day tickets to locals, but you have to live in Wilmington or Dover.

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## skimagic (Mar 24, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> I liked Haystack when I was a kid because it was a fun mountain to bomb around on but I think people would have a hard time paying more than a top level mountain ticket for that terrain and vertical. I'd rather spend $150 to ski Magic than Haystack for example assuming similar crowds. However I am considering this from the perspective of someone who can get to places like WV, Loon, Cannon, etc... in 2 hours or so. If I was a NYC/CT skier, I think the value equation would be very different.



Not a bad idea.  As for crowds, haystack has a far far superior lift system so one can rack up dozens of runs.


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## jerseydaze (Mar 24, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Mount Snow put it into the deed that Haystack cannot be a public ski area. However, they are allowed and do sell day tickets to locals, but you have to live in Wilmington or Dover.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


Does the public ski area clause have a expiration date?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 24, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Mount Snow put it into the deed that Haystack cannot be a public ski area. However, they are allowed and do sell day tickets to locals, but you have to live in Wilmington or Dover.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


I would think an arrangement could be worked out for limited public use beyond local residents.  

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## Glenn (Mar 24, 2018)

The EB-5 program is a head scratcher to me.  Invest 6 figures in a project that creates X number of jobs and get a Green Card. Seems like buying your citizenship to me. I have nothing against people who have the means to do this. It just seemed like a very odd government sponsored program.


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## sull1102 (Mar 24, 2018)

Hermitage does not use EB-5 as far as I know. They do use international seasonal whole like every other mountain in the area. 

The public ski area clause, as I read it on here years back and other places is a part of the deed. It wasn't even a party of the sale where only Barnes had to oblige, from what I understand it starts with the land and people seemed to think it could never be reversed. 

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## Euler (Mar 24, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> Of course not.  Mods should kick you off because you're misinformed and obnoxious.


He's not mis-informed.  Only obnoxious.  EB-5 totally is a go fund me program sponsored by the US gov in which the token reward, rather than a tote bag or a coffee mug, is a green card for those wealthy enough to cough up the $$


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## mister moose (Mar 24, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> The public ski area clause, as I read it on here years back and other places is a part of the deed. It wasn't even a party of the sale where only Barnes had to oblige, from what I understand it starts with the land and people seemed to think it could never be reversed.



Mount Snow maketh, and Mount Snow may taketh away.


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## JimG. (Mar 24, 2018)

Glenn said:


> It just seemed like a very odd government sponsored program.



Really?

Lately this seems like exactly the type of programs our gov't propagates. Anything to generate $.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 25, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Seems to me that whatever change in business plan is employed, there should be some component of public access for additional revenue streams.  Maybe make available 200 tickets a day at a high cost via online reservations only.  Lets go with $150.  That would bring in 60K a weekend plus F&B on top.  That would go along ways towards covering operating costs while still maintaining a private type experience.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



While I agree with you, wasn't it deeded that they could NOT be open to the public other than offering a small amount of day tickets to the residents of the local area?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 25, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> How did this turn into my dick is bigger than your dick (my mtn is better than your mtn) thread? We have plenty of those involving Mt Snow already.



Wait, What?... Yours is bigger??? Says who?!      :-D:-D:-D


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## sull1102 (Mar 26, 2018)

Hermitage sent out a press release today saying they had a successful season and are moving into off-season ops. They'll be closing with 100% of the upper mountain and Witches open, but they didn't run the lower mountain lifts so those trails were closed off. Surprised they aren't going to be open for Easter.

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## Jully (Mar 26, 2018)

jerseydaze said:


> Does the public ski area clause have a expiration date?



I thought I read somewhere that it does, or that it could somehow be subverted. Forget the details though...


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## Jully (Mar 26, 2018)

Glenn said:


> The EB-5 program is a head scratcher to me.  Invest 6 figures in a project that creates X number of jobs and get a Green Card. Seems like buying your citizenship to me. I have nothing against people who have the means to do this. It just seemed like a very odd government sponsored program.





JimG. said:


> Really?
> 
> Lately this seems like exactly the type of programs our gov't propagates. Anything to generate $.



Most governments have something nearly identical. Why would a country not want a wealthy immigrant willing to invest a boatload of money? I know of a bunch of other countries that eliminate the "investment" piece of it. For a lesser value you just buy residency. Seems like a great deal for all involved, IMO. Eb5 has a lot wrong with it, but if you eliminated the investment piece of it, it would get a lot simpler (though not totally fixed).


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## icecoast1 (Mar 27, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Hermitage sent out a press release today saying they had a successful season and are moving into off-season ops. They'll be closing with 100% of the upper mountain and Witches open, but they didn't run the lower mountain lifts so those trails were closed off. Surprised they aren't going to be open for Easter.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



He doesn't have a choice, he has no money to operate.


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## urungus (Mar 27, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Hermitage sent out a press release today saying they had a successful season and are moving into off-season ops. They'll be closing with 100% of the upper mountain and Witches open, but they didn't run the lower mountain lifts so those trails were closed off. Surprised they aren't going to be open for Easter.



“they had a successful season” ... LOL


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## Glenn (Mar 27, 2018)

What a bummer. On a such a good late season.


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## sull1102 (Mar 27, 2018)

Place looks to have a very nice base on the entire mountain including the lower area this morning on the way to Mount Snow. I wonder if Snow will see a bump next weekend with members looking to ski Easter weekend.

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## thetrailboss (Mar 27, 2018)

urungus said:


> “they had a successful season” ... LOL



Yes.  I also loved the "we are moving into off-season ops" line = mothballing things because of chaos.


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## icecoast1 (Mar 27, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes.  I also loved the "we are moving into off-season ops" line = mothballing things because of chaos.



Yup.  Shut the doors and lay everybody off because there's no money


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## Domeskier (Mar 27, 2018)

Maybe some deep-pocketed member will step up and fund operations for one last weekend.  I hear some of the members are very proud of their little club.


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## drjeff (Mar 27, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> Maybe some deep-pocketed member will step up and fund operations for one last weekend.  I hear some of the members are very proud of their little club.




Historically, events wise, this coming weekend, where there's the Winter Brewfest at Mount Snow on Saturday and the Gladiator bump comp down Ripcord on Sunday, is one of the weekends where one tends to see a fair number of Hermitage Club members at Mount Snow, just simply enjoying a fun events weekend in the Valley


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## Domeskier (Mar 27, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Historically, events wise, this coming weekend, where there's the Winter Brewfest at Mount Snow on Saturday and the Gladiator bump comp down Ripcord on Sunday, is one of the weekends where one tends to see a fair number of Hermitage Club members at Mount Snow, just simply enjoying a fun events weekend in the Valley



I didn't really mean it.  I'm sure even the least well-off member could self fund operations for a weekend.  At this point in the season there's really no need for a private club.  At least not one whose primary selling point is lack of crowds.  I think the decision to close this weekend would make good sense even if the place were flush.


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## sull1102 (Mar 27, 2018)

Domeskier said:


> I didn't really mean it.  I'm sure even the least well-off member could self fund operations for a weekend.  At this point in the season there's really no need for a private club.  At least not one whose primary selling point is lack of crowds.  I think the decision to close this weekend would make good sense even if the place were flush.


Sadly there's a few members at least that signed up early on that are much closer to middle class than you would think. 

I think all the anti Haystack sentiment is solely because it was open to all and then that was taken away and given back to only the rich. That isn't going to make friends out of many if any locals.

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## asnowmobiler (Mar 28, 2018)

I think all the anti Haystack sentiment is solely because it was open to all and then that was taken away and given back to only the rich. That isn't going to make friends out of many if any locals.

Sent from my LG-H820 using [URL="http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=73733" said:
			
		

> AlpineZone mobile app[/URL]



I thought the locals could ski there?


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## sull1102 (Mar 28, 2018)

asnowmobiler said:


> I thought the locals could ski there?



Wilmington and Dover residents could, but it was never talked about or advertised certainly. They made it hard to find on the website and I remember only seeing a ticket price once and forget what it was, maybe in the $100 range. There were also some weird rules aking so someone like myself who lives fairly close by cannot buy a ticket but a guy living one town over can. It's a lot like beach parking permits haha.


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## jaytrem (Mar 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Wilmington and Dover residents could, but it was never talked about or advertised certainly. They made it hard to find on the website and I remember only seeing a ticket price once and forget what it was, maybe in the $100 range. There were also some weird rules aking so someone like myself who lives fairly close by cannot buy a ticket but a guy living one town over can. It's a lot like beach parking permits haha.



I think it was around $80 last time I checked.  May have gone up though.  Would have been nice if the town negotiated a lift ticket price when they renewed the lease a few years ago.  A good chunk of the area is on land owned by the town of Wilmington.


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## drjeff (Mar 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Wilmington and Dover residents could, but it was never talked about or advertised certainly. They made it hard to find on the website and I remember only seeing a ticket price once and forget what it was, maybe in the $100 range. There were also some weird rules aking so someone like myself who lives fairly close by cannot buy a ticket but a guy living one town over can. It's a lot like beach parking permits haha.



Pretty sure it was also stated that one had to be a permanent resident of Wilmington or Dover, not a secondary home owner/part time resident of the 2 towns...


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## sull1102 (Mar 30, 2018)

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...ilings-show-troubles-?instance=home_news_left

Just gets worse and worse. The future of the Hermitage has never been more in doubt than it is today. There's no new money coming in, no property sales because of liens on everything(except that Dopp six pack), 20 lawsuits. At this point, with more and more coming out every week against the club and the season being wrapped up, why would any members give them a loan to get through the offseason. They've needed a loan to get through each offseason before and this time around they have bills to pay.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> At this point, with more and more c...it up in a foreclosure/bankruptcy proceeding.


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## gmcunni (Mar 30, 2018)

is there a white knight? will they be open for skiing next season?


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## Smellytele (Mar 30, 2018)

gmcunni said:


> is there a white knight? will they be open for skiing next season?



Or Golf this summer?


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## FBGM (Mar 30, 2018)

And the moral of the story is stop putting nice things in crap depressing areas and economy’s. 

Over under on how long before the junkies rip the copper out of the lodge and snowmaking wires to get that fix. 

Drugs and bad mmmkay


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## sull1102 (Mar 30, 2018)

That White Knight would now need north of $8 million just to clean up the back taxes and negotiate some kind of deal with the bank. Then there's the other lawsuits from smaller parties but even those are worth a million bucks in most cases. In all it looks like it would take $30 million to get the place back debt free.

Initially I was thinking you could get a white knight or two together and sell the six pack to anyone for $6 million, maybe more since it has the absolute bare minimum weekends only no summer hours on it. It has been reported the club owns the lift outright so that's straight cash. You pay the taxes with that money and then you can get started with the other problems, but really is that going to be enough money? You would have to tell members it was this or die. You run the triple 3/4 up and a cat or a temp lift the rest of the way, there are ways to make it work for a couple years.


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## njdiver85 (Mar 30, 2018)

My guess is that the Hermitage will languish in bankruptcy proceedings that will take it well through this time next year or longer, at which point some wealthy members will be able to buy this thing back for pennies on the dollar.  Suspect that this is the long term strategy at this point.  Sadly, all the local vendors, property owners, contractors and the like, who are all owed large sums of money, will loose out on recovering most of what is owed them.


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## Jully (Mar 30, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> My guess is that the Hermitage will languish in bankruptcy proceedings that will take it well through this time next year or longer, at which point some wealthy members will be able to buy this thing back for pennies on the dollar.  Suspect that this is the long term strategy at this point.  Sadly, all the local vendors, property owners, contractors and the like, who are all owed large sums of money, will loose out on recovering most of what is owed them.



Not super familiar with bankruptcy proceedings myself, but would the 6 pack ever be sold as a result of it? That is a lot of cash there. Would be a nice upgrade for some other NE mountain haha.


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## mbedle (Mar 30, 2018)

Has the club actually filed for bankruptcy yet? Guess that will be coming soon, but I doubt they will be filling for Chapter 7.


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## WJenness (Mar 30, 2018)

Jully said:


> Not super familiar with bankruptcy proceedings myself, but would the 6 pack ever be sold as a result of it? That is a lot of cash there. Would be a nice upgrade for some other NE mountain haha.



(note: I am not a lawyer, I just married one)

Could happen... But if they have a separate LLC that only owns the six pack, that could prevent something like that.

And I wouldn't be surprised if things are set up that way.

-w


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## mbedle (Mar 30, 2018)

Checked online and it doesn't seem to be under a separate LLC, unless them used a unique name I couldn't find. Was interesting to see all of the Hermitage LLC are listed as terminated.


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## bigbob (Mar 30, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Checked online and it doesn't seem to be under a separate LLC, unless them used a unique name I couldn't find. Was interesting to see all of the Hermitage LLC are listed as terminated.



 They may not of paid their annual filing fee to the state last year


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## mbedle (Mar 30, 2018)

bigbob said:


> They may not of paid their annual filing fee to the state last year



I figured it had to do something with them not paying fees or their business taxes.


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## Killingtime (Mar 30, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I figured it had to do something with them not paying fees or their business taxes.



NYS will terminate your corporate charter if you fail to pay your franchise fees for two consecutive years under something called dissolution by proclamation. Guessing Vermont has something similar. Organizations that cant pay their food vendors, water bills or sales tax are certainly not going to pay their state franchise fees either. This thing is toast. Let the bankruptcy lawyers figure it out now.


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## Jully (Mar 30, 2018)

So it sounds like there is a real possibility of the club losing the 6 pack during the whole bankruptcy process? I wonder how much that would impact the club's resale value back to the members if they do indeed want to buy it back after bankruptcy? No base to summit lift and a couple million needed to even get a used fixed grip installed would be a big deterrent for me if I were a member.

No clue how important that is for the members that actually ski there though.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Or Golf this summer?


Golf this summer is definitely questionable.  They are going to need to dump some money into the course this spring to get it up and running.  I am not holding my breath.


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## sull1102 (Mar 30, 2018)

Jully said:


> So it sounds like there is a real possibility of the club losing the 6 pack during the whole bankruptcy process? I wonder how much that would impact the club's resale value back to the members if they do indeed want to buy it back after bankruptcy? No base to summit lift and a couple million needed to even get a used fixed grip installed would be a big deterrent for me if I were a member.
> 
> No clue how important that is for the members that actually ski there though.


Completely agree, brought this up on another forum. That lift is the only we know the club actually paid for. It's got the bare minimum on it use wise with no summer ops and three short seasons of weekend only operation, heated seats, and oh there's a buyer with a need no more than 4 miles away. 

That being said I think this kills the club and the whole luxury vibe. Suddenly you're a midsized mountain with no summit access, but 3/4 of the main faceand Witches would still be reachable. 

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## mbedle (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm not sure I agree with all you that this place is going to go into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. You have a lot of very financially well off people and companies that own real estate at this place and what nothing more than to keep the club, golf and skiing going. If anything, I see a potential ownership transfer to a new organization (owned by the members). That would provide relief from Barnes, who has personal ties to some of the liens (not just through a LLC). combine that with a Chapter 11 and a valid business plan, thing could continue on as normal. Albeit at maybe not such a high end way.


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## prsboogie (Mar 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> That White Knight would now need north of $8 million just to clean up the back taxes and negotiate some kind of deal with the bank. Then there's the other lawsuits from smaller parties but even those are worth a million bucks in most cases. In all it looks like it would take $30 million to get the place back debt free.
> 
> Initially I was thinking you could get a white knight or two together and sell the six pack to anyone for $6 million, maybe more since it has the absolute bare minimum weekends only no summer hours on it. It has been reported the club owns the lift outright so that's straight cash.



This could be a bargain for Attitash to finally fix the summit lift issue!!

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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2018)

prsboogie said:


> This could be a bargain for Attitash to finally fix the summit lift issue!!
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


Hell yeah!!  F it.  Haystack can go Nelsap for all I care if Tash gets a high speed summit chair

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## Glenn (Mar 31, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I'm not sure I agree with all you that this place is going to go into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. You have a lot of very financially well off people and companies that own real estate at this place and what nothing more than to keep the club, golf and skiing going. If anything, I see a potential ownership transfer to a new organization (owned by the members). That would provide relief from Barnes, who has personal ties to some of the liens (not just through a LLC). combine that with a Chapter 11 and a valid business plan, thing could continue on as normal. Albeit at maybe not such a high end way.



Well stated.


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## sull1102 (Apr 1, 2018)

Shut down for a 3rd time in three weeks by the state for taxes... Members told they can come get their stuff from the Clubhouse despite there being no employees around. I would think it wise to empty out the lockers and get all your belongings before they get wrapped up in court. 

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## drjeff (Apr 1, 2018)

The reality for the next 6 weeks roughly (the usual timeframe until their golf course typically opens for the season) one won't be able to likely grasp the intentions of will or won't it reopen... 

Pretty sure just the Court proceedings in the near future won't allow for things to be fully shut down for good (if that's what eventually happens) or some type of members buy out/take over to be passed and implemented, given that it's going into a period of little activity for the club.

On an aside note, nice snow squall up the street at Mount Snow this morning and they're still almost 100% open! 

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## VTKilarney (Apr 1, 2018)

drjeff said:


> The reality for the next 6 weeks roughly (the usual timeframe until their golf course typically opens for the season) one won't be able to likely grasp the intentions of will or won't it reopen...



Sure you can.  Just look at what they are doing (or not doing) to the golf course to get it ready to open.

Since only a fool would buy in now, whoever takes it over better have a business plan that doesn’t depend on much of an increase in membership.  Although if I lived closer I would be tempted to gamble on a cut rate membership if new management offered one.  I probably wouldn’t but it would be tempting.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 1, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Sure you can.  Just look at what they are doing (or not doing) to the golf course to get it ready to open.
> 
> Since only a fool would buy in now, whoever takes it over better have a business plan that doesn’t depend on much of an increase in membership.  Although if I lived closer I would be tempted to gamble on a cut rate membership if new management offered one.  I probably wouldn’t but it would be tempting.




Don't buy up half the town with money you don't have, don't tick off the state so they drag out your permitting process stalling all real estate development, charge a more realistic dues fee... there's no reason that place can't succeed as a private ski area with the right management but they need to be more focused on the actual ski area and not Barnesville which clearly the current ownership had no intention of ever doing.  Barnes needs to do everybody a favor and just leave, and sooner rather than later so whoever takes over the mountain after him has something resembling a ski area left before the bank takes over and liquidates everything for pennies on the dollar


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## Glenn (Apr 2, 2018)

Wow. Crazy as more details come to light. It'll be really interesting to see what takes place next. Ideally, someone will buy it and run the place correctly. But the amount of defaults and debt just keeps piling up.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 3, 2018)

http://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/suit-filed-against-club-founder,536000


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## sull1102 (Apr 3, 2018)

Heard some talk through the grapevine and then some new talk on Facebook and it really sounds like the Club never actually made payroll in March. There's more than a few former employees with paychecks bouncing and now obviously no HR or anything to call and complain other than going through the state.


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## sull1102 (Apr 6, 2018)

Tax Sale scheduled for June per the Brattleboro Reformer on Facebook. On the website you can only book a room at the Inn through May. I would guess between now and then things will happen.

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## drjeff (Apr 7, 2018)

Rumor I heard today, from someone who isn't a member, but makes his living in the Wall St Realestate/finance world is that KSL is looking at buying the Hermitage.... Big picture, it would make sense on some levels.... Time will tell if this has any legs or not.....

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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 7, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Rumor I heard today, from someone who isn't a member, but makes his living in the Wall St Realestate/finance world is that KSL is looking at buying the Hermitage.... Big picture, it would make sense on some levels.... Time will tell if this has any legs or not.....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


KSL?

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## sull1102 (Apr 7, 2018)

I'd guess KSL/Aspen who also own Stratton. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

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## FBGM (Apr 7, 2018)

Fire sale? Auction?

Dibs in 6 pack. Ill start bid at $20


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## Pez (Apr 7, 2018)

Ikon pass'd


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## Hawkshot99 (Apr 7, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I'd guess KSL/Aspen who also own Stratton. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


What is the plus for doing It? A company like that wants to make $. How will they run a mtn they still can't sell public tickets to? 

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## drjeff (Apr 7, 2018)

Hawkshot99 said:


> What is the plus for doing It? A company like that wants to make $. How will they run a mtn they still can't sell public tickets to?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


Upsell to the already established Stratton Club Members + the existing Hermitage Members, and offer access to other Ikon pass members, for a premium....

Get's a bunch of high wealth people, who wouldn't think too much about dropping big $$ at one of their other Western properties for a ski week or weeks per season, into their customer base.....

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## drjeff (Apr 7, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I'd guess KSL/Aspen who also own Stratton. Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


Yup, that's them... KSL/Aspen/Ikon pass....

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## Jcb890 (Apr 7, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Upsell to the already established Stratton Club Members + the existing Hermitage Members, and offer access to other Ikon pass members, for a premium....
> 
> Get's a bunch of high wealth people, who wouldn't think too much about dropping big $$ at one of their other Western properties for a ski week or weeks per season, into their customer base.....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


Seems like an unwise investment to be honest.

If you can afford to join or be a part of the Hermitage Club, I doubt you're sweating dropping $600 or $900 on an Ikon Pass.


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## sull1102 (Apr 7, 2018)

Think about it like the cruise lines that operate their own little island. Hey Ikon Passholders you can now go to the private Ikon only resort and Stratton. 

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## benski (Apr 7, 2018)

Jcb890 said:


> Seems like an unwise investment to be honest.
> 
> If you can afford to join or be a part of the Hermitage Club, I doubt you're sweating dropping $600 or $900 on an Ikon Pass.



I see your point, but same is true with an epic pass or a trip to Europe or Japan. If they go threw with it I bet they could easily get a week trip at Aspen out of all of them. But I doubt they would acquire it unless it could become profitable by itself.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 7, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Think about it like the cruise lines that operate their own little island. Hey Ikon Passholders you can now go to the private Ikon only resort and Stratton.


Ehhhh, maybe.



benski said:


> I see your point, but same is true with an epic pass or a trip to Europe or Japan. If they go threw with it I bet they could easily get a week trip at Aspen out of all of them. But I doubt they would acquire it unless it could become profitable by itself.


I just don't see it being a profitable investment for them.


Another thought... how would that work anyways if the mountain is not for public use?  Would Ikon Pass holders be considered part of a private club/membership?


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Upsell to the already established Stratton Club Members + the existing Hermitage Members, and offer access to other Ikon pass members, for a premium....
> 
> Get's a bunch of high wealth people, who wouldn't think too much about dropping big $$ at one of their other Western properties for a ski week or weeks per season, into their customer base.....
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



I’m still not seeing the ROI, but who knows.


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## slatham (Apr 8, 2018)

I see such a move as much more a move by Vail than KLS.

But in all other similar situations regarding clubs that I am aware, it's been the members that have done the bail out.


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## sull1102 (Apr 8, 2018)

In this case I think many members are already a part of the Aspen crowd. They're certainly Aspen-type people. I could see this working if KSL can find a way to make it so the resort is not really private. You don't have to start selling day tickets, but can you open to all Ikon passholders(unlimited days at Hermitage) and still be within the deed restrictions.


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## bigbob (Apr 8, 2018)

It may not have immediate value, but the cost of permitting and starting a ski area close to a population center is cost prohibitive. They may be looking at it as a long term investment beside a feeder hill of deep pocket customers.


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## EPB (Apr 8, 2018)

bigbob said:


> It may not have immediate value, but the cost of permitting and starting a ski area close to a population center is cost prohibitive. They may be looking at it as a long term investment beside a feeder hill of deep pocket customers.



This is where I see the logic for a purchase making the most sense. ROI has been mentioned here, but it's hard to assess ROI without knowing:
1) What type of discount a buyer could purchase the distressed resort relative to building-out a comparable resort from scratch. 
2) How would a buyer get the club to at least a break-even run rate. It seems fair to assume that they are losing money as the club stands today, but who knows why: it could be more management waste/fraud than a nonviable business model. 
3) The club's willingness to bail itself out. It might not be that difficult to get the club on board depending upon how dire they perceive the club's financial situation to be.
4) How difficult the logistics would be to move from a club model to a club/limited access hybrid model.

I haven't been up to the resort myself (didn't feel like asking the guy at the huge gate they have if I could poke around because I assumed the answer would be a firm "no" anyway), but the place seems next-level posh by NE standards save perhaps Stowe. At 2hrs 36 mins from Boston, or 4hrs from NYC (using google maps as I write this post at ~12:30 on a Sunday), the Hermitage is _relatively_ close to the population centers - especially when you consider how upscale the resort must be. 

I would hazard a guess that eastern Vail or Aspen pass holders would appreciate limited access to the club (10 or less days and perhaps the option to access to on-mountain lodging at an very high market-rate price). Tough to handicap a potential sale either way, but it will be fun to monitor the developments as an outsider.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 8, 2018)

If Hermitage or Stratton weren't so close it might make sense.  But the type of person that would join Haystack or the Stratton club are basically the same type of person.  Haystack might be more ritzy but it's still not much of a difference to justify owning 2 places that are so similar only 30 minutes apart


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## EPB (Apr 8, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> If Hermitage or Stratton weren't so close it might make sense.  But the type of person that would join Haystack or the Stratton club are basically the same type of person.  Haystack might be more ritzy but it's still not much of a difference to justify owning 2 places that are so similar only 30 minutes apart



I wouldn't expect anyone at Stratton to own two places (totally forgot about how nice that place must be because I've never been). I could see Stratton skiers interested in having the option to buy tickets to Hermitage on holiday weekends, though. It's tough to know what type of deal could get struck, but I could see a rich Stratton skier liking the option to buy a Hermitage ticket at, say, $150/per during MLK weekend or during other crazy busy days to avoid the crowds. Figuring out how to ration tickets or justify to club members why they should be on board with periodic small-to-medium-sized influxes of Stratton clientele could get dicey, though.


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## sull1102 (Apr 8, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> If Hermitage or Stratton weren't so close it might make sense.  But the type of person that would join Haystack or the Stratton club are basically the same type of person.  Haystack might be more ritzy but it's still not much of a difference to justify owning 2 places that are so similar only 30 minutes apart



But, the Stratton Club members might love getting away to a place with minimal crowds on the busiest of weekends and holiday breaks. Even if its just one of the two days. It really will come down to just how much it would cost and what exactly are you getting for your money. From what I can gather it would be the ski area, the paid for already lifts, the clubhouse, the Inn, and a couple other foreclosed upon inns around the valley. KSL probably has zero interest in running the Inns save for the Hermitage with the direct lift.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2018)

I thought that non-locals couldn’t buy tickets.


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## sull1102 (Apr 8, 2018)

As far as we know right now that is the case, but you could ski there is you were staying at a Hermitage property and club members could bring guests. Does that mean somehow some way if essentially Stratton(in the form of KSL) buys the Club they can bring in Stratton club  members and Ikon passholders. If they can, and they get the mountain cheap with its brand new snowmaking and lifts etc, the place needs nothing to operate, and run it as a satelite of Stratton, but exclusive.

Should note, place is still covered top to bottom with a ton of snow. If I was a member I'd be real unhappy seeing my private mountain not running just the one lift needed to reach 80% of terrain. Of course they are once again shutdown by the state for not paying taxes, again.


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## EPB (Apr 8, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I thought that non-locals couldn’t buy tickets.


It's tough to know what the agreements will look like after going through this whole process, but I don't see why this couldn't be revisited. Do we even know if this is a policy or a more formalized contract with some local municipality? Even if it's a contract, it could be revisited in a bankruptcy scenario.

Chances are, something is going to have to change regarding the club's exclusivity policies unless the only reason why the club failed was because of mismanagement. In that case, club members might see it most prudent to bail the club out... Stratton's wealthy base (likely including this club with which I am not familiar) would be a great group to offer high priced tickets to avoid crowds if the club is not viable in its current form. I could see a scenario where a quota of high priced tickets could be made available to Stratton pass holders on holidays or powder days. It seems like the lodging could be dicier given that the club hasn't even constructed homes they were supposed to deliver to new members, but I will plead ignorance to the lodging issues at The Hermitage.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 8, 2018)

eastern powder baby said:


> It's tough to know what the agreements will look like after going through this whole process, but I don't see why this couldn't be revisited. Do we even know if this is a policy or a more formalized contract with some local municipality? Even if it's a contract, it could be revisited in a bankruptcy scenario.
> 
> Chances are, something is going to have to change regarding the club's exclusivity policies unless the only reason why the club failed was because of mismanagement. In that case, club members might see it most prudent to bail the club out... Stratton's wealthy base (likely including this club with which I am not familiar) would be a great group to offer high priced tickets to avoid crowds if the club is not viable in its current form. I could see a scenario where a quota of high priced tickets could be made available to Stratton pass holders on holidays or powder days. It seems like the lodging could be dicier given that the club hasn't even constructed homes they were supposed to deliver to new members, but I will plead ignorance to the lodging issues at The Hermitage.



It was part of the contract of sale when the owner before Barnes bought it from ASC who also owned mount snow that it could never open as a public ski area except to locals.   Seeing as the water rights to mirror lake transfered over, I would imagine that would as well in any sale.


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## sull1102 (Apr 8, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> It was part of the contract of sale when the owner before Barnes bought it from ASC who also owned mount snow that it could never open as a public ski area except to locals.   Seeing as the water rights to mirror lake transfered over, I would imagine that would as well in any sale.



Great point about the water rights transferring. IF the restriction is not in the deed there's a chance it had the same time limit on it as the water. Should it be in the deed, the local and state officials are worried about losing a tax generator so they will be willing to help.


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## EPB (Apr 8, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> It was part of the contract of sale when the owner before Barnes bought it from ASC who also owned mount snow that it could never open as a public ski area except to locals.   Seeing as the water rights to mirror lake transfered over, I would imagine that would as well in any sale.



Thanks and understood. I agree with sull1102 in that the it's probably in the local area's best interest to have a viable Hermitage Club, but we'll have to see how the powers that be feel about it... I also wonder if it would be possible to argue that offering a small quota of tickets to pass holders of sister resorts would still be within the terms of the agreement (i.e. the resort is still effectively private because only a small number of tickets can be sold to a small subset of the "public" and that traffic would be kept strictly in check). It all depends on how the agreement was written, I suppose. 

Going into bankruptcy could potentially allow the Club to put forth a reorganization plan that allows for it to sell some tickets to the public (and argue to a bankruptcy judge why a hard line "no public skiing" policy is unnecessarily burdensome to the debtor). Of course, I would have to imagine that moving to a true "public" resort model like Mt. Snow or Stratton would face some serious opposition from the Club members, too.


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## Zermatt (Apr 8, 2018)

eastern powder baby said:


> Thanks and understood. I agree with sull1102 in that the it's probably in the local area's best interest to have a viable Hermitage Club, but we'll have to see how the powers that be feel about it... I also wonder if it would be possible to argue that offering a small quota of tickets to pass holders of sister resorts would still be within the terms of the agreement (i.e. the resort is still effectively private because only a small number of tickets can be sold to a small subset of the "public" and that traffic would be kept strictly in check). It all depends on how the agreement was written, I suppose.
> 
> Going into bankruptcy could potentially allow the Club to put forth a reorganization plan that allows for it to sell some tickets to the public (and argue to a bankruptcy judge why a hard line "no public skiing" policy is unnecessarily burdensome to the debtor). Of course, I would have to imagine that moving to a true "public" resort model like Mt. Snow or Stratton would face some serious opposition from the Club members, too.



Going into bankruptcy wont change the deal about no public tickets.  That is part of the deed and has nothing to do with creditors.

Now, I agree that is what is needed, but bankruptcy will not change it.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 8, 2018)

It will be interesting to see what happens. Barnes could have sold it months ago to the members and probably still can but he'd rather see it fail than flourish in somebody else's hands.  Eventually he will have no choice, it's unfortunate for everyone involved that his ego is preventing him from doing what's in everyone's best interest.


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## sull1102 (Apr 8, 2018)

Eventually is coming in roughly 8 weeks with the tax sale of the ski area and the inns. I would think between now and then something has to happen with the bankruptcy proceedings started by the bank about a month ago.


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## EPB (Apr 8, 2018)

billo said:


> Going into bankruptcy wont change the deal about no public tickets.  That is part of the deed and has nothing to do with creditors.
> 
> Now, I agree that is what is needed, but bankruptcy will not change it.


I may have gotten myself mixed up. I figured there could be a way to argue that the only way the club is viable as a going concern is through relief from this restriction. Perhaps not the more I think about it. I haven't seen a case quite line this before. In full disclosure, I am not a bankruptcy lawyer.

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## mister moose (Apr 9, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Eventually is coming in roughly 8 weeks with the tax sale of the ski area and the inns. I would think between now and then something has to happen with the bankruptcy proceedings started by the bank about a month ago.



Plus a year.  Tax sales can be redeemed, and the old owner has a year to redeem.  The high bidder doesn't get title until that year is over.


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## sull1102 (Apr 9, 2018)

Oh of course, I just figure there's borderline no chance at all Barnes suddenly pays the millions of past due taxes, unless members bail it all out. 

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## trackbiker (Apr 9, 2018)

I don't think anyone mentioned that typically the bank holding the mortgage buys the property at a tax sale to protect and maximize their investment. In any case, the property would still have the mortgage lien if another buyer was successful at the tax sale.


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## sull1102 (Apr 9, 2018)

trackbiker said:


> I don't think anyone mentioned that typically the bank holding the mortgage buys the property at a tax sale to protect and maximize their investment. In any case, the property would still have the mortgage lien if another buyer was successful at the tax sale.



Berkshire Bank has already paid some taxes as well so they probably think they can sell somewhat quickly if they do buy. Realistically club could skip next winter, come back for 19/20 with a new owner.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2018)

trackbiker said:


> In any case, the property would still have the mortgage lien if another buyer was successful at the tax sale.



Incorrect.


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## trackbiker (Apr 9, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Incorrect.



At a tax sale the tax lien would go away but the mortgage on the property would stay unless the bank released it or it was somehow satisfied.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2018)

trackbiker said:


> At a tax sale the tax lien would go away but the mortgage on the property would stay unless the bank released it or it was somehow satisfied.



Once again, incorrect.


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## sull1102 (Apr 9, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Once again, incorrect.


Mind sharing how it would work? You seem to know a little more than the rest of us about this stuff. 

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## VTKilarney (Apr 9, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Mind sharing how it would work? You seem to know a little more than the rest of us about this stuff.



Here is a link with all sorts of information: https://readsborovt.org/uploads/VLCT_Collector_Delinquent_Taxes_Handbook.pdf

Of particular note is this:
*Collector’s Deed and Property Transfer Tax.* If the delinquent taxpayer or mortgagees fail to redeem the property during the one-year period, the delinquent tax collector must execute a tax collector’s deed to pass title from the delinquent taxpayer to the purchaser. _This deed will extinguish all mortgages and interest in the property held by people who claim under the delinquent taxpayer. _


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## sull1102 (Apr 9, 2018)

Oh wow, well then somebody might get a really nice deal in the end of all this. That would just about guarantee Berkshire Bank wins the tax sale to clear the slate and then sell it all. 

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## trackbiker (Apr 10, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Here is a link with all sorts of information: https://readsborovt.org/uploads/VLCT_Collector_Delinquent_Taxes_Handbook.pdf
> 
> Of particular note is this:
> *Collector’s Deed and Property Transfer Tax.* If the delinquent taxpayer or mortgagees fail to redeem the property during the one-year period, the delinquent tax collector must execute a tax collector’s deed to pass title from the delinquent taxpayer to the purchaser. _This deed will extinguish all mortgages and interest in the property held by people who claim under the delinquent taxpayer. _



That is correct if *after one year* *the mortgagee does not pay the taxes as well*. I was talking about the situation where the bank did not buy the property at tax sale and someone else bought the property. The taxes would be paid at the sale and the buyer would still owe the mortgage on the property.


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## abc (Apr 10, 2018)

Put another way, the bank will buy the tax lien. Unless it’s decided to forefeit the mortgage.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2018)

trackbiker said:


> That is correct if *after one year* *the mortgagee does not pay the taxes as well*. I was talking about the situation where the bank did not buy the property at tax sale and someone else bought the property. The taxes would be paid at the sale and the buyer would still owe the mortgage on the property.



Wrong again.


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## sull1102 (Apr 11, 2018)

Drove by this today going to Sneaux, place looks sweet right now. There's a solid 6-8 inches of fresh snow from the past four days on top of a deep base. They could still easily be 100% open this weekend. I'm actually surprised that the lower mountain trails have retained their edge to edge cover. Some people are skinning multiple trails and looked like a sled or two had some fun as well. 

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## njdiver85 (Apr 13, 2018)

A few more details:

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...-Club-s-woes-continue?instance=home_news_left


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## Killingtime (Apr 13, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> A few more details:
> 
> http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...tly got mixed reviews for quality of service.


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## FBGM (Apr 13, 2018)

Did the tweakers from bennington and mt blows hippie fest go strip the copper out of the lodges yet?


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## njdiver85 (Apr 13, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Did the tweakers from bennington and mt blows hippie fest go strip the copper out of the lodges yet?



Another constructive, intelligent post from FBGM!


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## sull1102 (Apr 13, 2018)

Barnes' lawyer bailing on him is very interesting. In addition it's been said Jim had his antique Rolls out and about top down and all. It's pretty early in the year for that, still salt, rocks, and some mean potholes. Only way I'd pull my antique out this early was if I had to sell it soon for some reason...

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## mikec142 (Apr 13, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Barnes' lawyer bailing on him is very interesting. In addition it's been said Jim had his antique Rolls out and about top down and all. It's pretty early in the year for that, still salt, rocks, and some mean potholes. Only way I'd pull my antique out this early was if I had to sell it soon for some reason...
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app




I'm sure that Barnes lawyer is bailing because he's not getting paid.


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## mister moose (Apr 13, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Barnes' lawyer bailing on him is very interesting. In addition it's been said Jim had his antique Rolls out and about top down and all. It's pretty early in the year for that, still salt, rocks, and some mean potholes. Only way I'd pull my antique out this early was if I had to sell it soon for some reason...



Very few potholes in Avon.


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## sull1102 (Apr 13, 2018)

That's lovely for Avon, but up here in Wilmington where he was seen driving the Rolls we have just about the worst roads you can imagine right now.


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## drjeff (Apr 14, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> That's lovely for Avon, but up here in Wilmington where he was seen driving the Rolls we have just about the worst roads you can imagine right now.


The Southbound lane especially of 100 now between roughly Twice Blessed and the Elementary school wouldn't take much to get it ready to hold a Baja 1000 style race on now!!!

Sure hope the State of VT ups the timeframe to fully repave that section of 100 or else it's going to be a LONG couple of years waiting for it to get to the top of their agenda for yearly projects!!! Might see a few Priuses or Smart Cars with NY and NJ and MA plates on them completely swallowed up sink hole style by a few of them!! [emoji33] [emoji33] 

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## mister moose (Apr 14, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> That's lovely for Avon, but up here in Wilmington where he was seen driving the Rolls we have just about the worst roads you can imagine right now.


Oh, ok. I saw his residence was Avon and figured that's where the Rolls was.


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## sull1102 (Apr 15, 2018)

Drove by on Friday morning and the construction on the townhouses down by the gatehouse has stopped, all equipment removed including the contractor trailers etc. Everything else was completely silent and empty as well. Place feels very much dead.

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## Glenn (Apr 16, 2018)

We get the local papers up in VT. Yeah, I still read the paper on the weekends... Seems every week, there's another layer to this story. It's really incredible.


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## njdiver85 (Apr 19, 2018)

Things seem to be moving faster than I would have imagined:

http://www.dvalnews.com/view/full_s...ke-over-troubled-club?instance=home_news_left


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## mister moose (Apr 19, 2018)

That article states that Berkshire Bank has recently paid $949,000 in property taxes, utilities and lease payments to keep the heat on and a tax sale from occurring.  They are asking the court to appoint a receiver.  That brings the bank tab up to 17.6 million.


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## sull1102 (Apr 20, 2018)

Yikes. So I'm reading this to say that the bank wants this wrapped up this summer and has already taken control basically if they're at the point of needing to pay for heating oil it sounds like Barnes has maybe started to just walk away with nothing. Smart move by the bank to not wait until June when it's too late to do anything for 18/19.

Does anyone think we'll ever get the full story here and find out what happened here and why everyone was saying the Club had enough members to be self sustaining moving forward as recently as Feb 2017? I'm curious how much of his personal funds Barnes actually spent and is losing in all of this.

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## icecoast1 (Apr 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Yikes. So I'm reading this to say that the bank wants this wrapped up this summer and has already taken control basically if they're at the point of needing to pay for heating oil it sounds like Barnes has maybe started to just walk away with nothing. Smart move by the bank to not wait until June when it's too late to do anything for 18/19.
> 
> Does anyone think we'll ever get the full story here and find out what happened here and why everyone was saying the Club had enough members to be self sustaining moving forward as recently as Feb 2017? I'm curious how much of his personal funds Barnes actually spent and is losing in all of this.
> 
> Sent from my LG G5 using AlpineZone mobile app



He doesn't have much of a choice at this point with the bank stepping in and taking over.  I'm sure the truth will come out eventually but i'd be willing to bet the fact that the members didn't take it over had a lot to do with Barnes unwillingness to actually give it up and or the ridiculous asking prices he was throwing out coupled with the 10 million dollars in liens that he obviously could not pay and the receiving party would have to pay.   

I wonder how interested the members would be in buying it at auction.... you'd have to think they'd go after it pretty aggressively since it ending up in anybody elses hands would likely result in drastic changes from the place they've come to know and love


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## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2018)

This may have been covered, but the clock is now ticking on them to respond the the motion for a receiver.  

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Hermitage-Resort-ordered-to-close-480672081.html

And this is funny:



> The Hermitage Club hosted "The Bachelor Winter Games," a four-episode spin-off of "The Bachelor" that ran in conjunction with the Olympics.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 24, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> And this is funny:


 http://people.com/home/behind-the-scenes-details-of-the-bachelor-winter-games-house/


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## Glenn (Apr 24, 2018)

I was surprised to read how many inns they owned in the Dover area. It's almost like a a micro version of ASC buying up everything.


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## sull1102 (Apr 24, 2018)

Yes and no. Yes he "owned" a bunch of properties in the Valley, but it's barely a drop in the bucket of rooms up here. When you look at how he was running the off site places the trouble was obvious long ago. None of these places were ever busy or even moderately booked. Also a pair of those properties werev used exclusively for international employees because they come nowhere closer to acceptable for anything else. 

Other properties, especially the Vermont House and the White House deserve more than to be some second rate property for the Hermitage. I believe, and this is all just thinking out loud, that maybe Jim thought this was gonna work out a little faster than it is and the Club would have been bringing boat loads of people into town. His little Inn only has 8 or 10 rooms at the absolute most so he wouldn't have been able to get much market share unless he bought the languishing properties around town and waited till he had $$$ to refurbished places.

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## crystalmountainskier (Apr 30, 2018)

A $26 million loan to pay off a $17 million loan?

http://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-says-it-has-financing-offer,538408


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## Killingtime (Apr 30, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> A $26 million loan to pay off a $17 million loan?
> 
> Yeah, I guess the $9 mill difference is to pay off other debts that are not bank related and give the Hermitage some working capital / breathing room. Someone obviously thinks this thing is worth it. First good news about this in a long time. Wonder why the name of the new lender was redacted? Hopefully its not the same group that wanted to buy Saddleback in Maine haha.
> 
> ...


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## sull1102 (Apr 30, 2018)

That's the members coming in at the very last minute to keep their private playground going.

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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> That's the members coming in at the very last minute to keep their private playground going.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


My thoughts exactly, and frankly not surprising at all..

Just had to get Jim Barnes out of the way, which the foreclosure notice did, and then the long standing plan by the member filled finance board of the club, to take control of the club, could be implemented...

Given the financial deals many of their members make on a fairly regular basis with their line of work, this is in their big picture, a small deal....

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## sull1102 (Apr 30, 2018)

I wonder what the plan is, do they just try to keep the place as is or do they continue with the approved master plan wit the hotels etc and use some of that $9 million to restart those efforts. You could probably get those townhouses visible from the gatehouse wrapped up before the end of the construction season and maybe occupied by early 2019. Also, is Barnes is gone for good, which is what I really hope this all means, does that mean the state will ease up and let the place finish those couple of trails down by the Inn that were cleared illegally years ago.


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## Smellytele (Apr 30, 2018)

Just a really large band-aid that will still fail. Also does it say if Barnes was out or not in that article?


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## skifree (Apr 30, 2018)

Banks starting to give money away.
Here we go again!


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 30, 2018)

To be honest if Mount Snow bought it back, I could see myself going to Haystack a couple times a year.

This private ski club stuff is just a stop gap measure on the way to NELSAP


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## icecoast1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Nothing more than rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic if Jim barnes is involved in anyway.  If they are giving the loan to allow the members to run it that would be some actual progress


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## sull1102 (Apr 30, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Just a really large band-aid that will still fail. Also does it say if Barnes was out or not in that article?


It doesn't say anything about Barnes, but I'm reading it to say that the current Hermitage Club got a loan at the last second from Wells Fargo, no surprise knowing some of the members, and is using most of this $26 million loan to pay off Berkshire Bank and other outstanding debts. Basically they're consolidating, but that would mean Barnes is still up top with his friend running the show for him.

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## Jcb890 (Apr 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> It doesn't say anything about Barnes, but I'm reading it to say that the current Hermitage Club got a loan at the last second from Wells Fargo, no surprise knowing some of the members, and is using most of this $26 million loan to pay off Berkshire Bank and other outstanding debts. Basically they're consolidating, but that would mean Barnes is still up top with his friend running the show for him.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


It worked out so well the first time, might as well give it another go!


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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> It doesn't say anything about Barnes, but I'm reading it to say that the current Hermitage Club got a loan at the last second from Wells Fargo, no surprise knowing some of the members, and is using most of this $26 million loan to pay off Berkshire Bank and other outstanding debts. Basically they're consolidating, but that would mean Barnes is still up top with his friend running the show for him.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


My hunch is that if/when some details of the arrangement come out, we'll see that Jim Barnes will have little to no say in club operations going forward. 

I'm pretty sure the likely members behind this arrangement get that the club will have significantly reduced to no chance of attracting new members with Jim Barnes having any significant say in day to day operations, or possibly any presence at the club at all other than as a paying member.



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## slatham (Apr 30, 2018)

drjeff said:


> My hunch is that if/when some details of the arrangement come out, we'll see that Jim Barnes will have little to no say in club operations going forward.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the likely members behind this arrangement get that the club will have significantly reduced to no chance of attracting new members with Jim Barnes having any significant say in day to day operations, or possibly any presence at the club at all other than as a paying member.
> 
> ...



I agree, Barnes is out. How they make it work with $26mm is debt is the real question.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 30, 2018)

slatham said:


> I agree, Barnes is out. How they make it work with $26mm is debt is the real question.



Increase the dues, sell and actually build the rest of the real estate around the mountain, reduce operating costs by selling non essential items like all the hotels and inns around town.... its doable, just need the right people at the top and Jim Barnes can't be involved in any way


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## Smellytele (Apr 30, 2018)

drjeff said:


> My hunch is that if/when some details of the arrangement come out, we'll see that Jim Barnes will have little to no say in club operations going forward.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the likely members behind this arrangement get that the club will have significantly reduced to no chance of attracting new members with Jim Barnes having any significant say in day to day operations, or possibly any presence at the club at all other than as a paying member.
> 
> ...



Still hard to attract anyone when there has been nothing but issues for awhile. What did Barnes do that anyone else would have done different? Not buy a six pack? Besides that it was really just a cash follow issue. Not enough coming in so you have to start paying bills on an on need basis (daily operating costs) not what the money was meant for (building paid for properties) It is the whole business plan that is at fault.


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## sull1102 (Apr 30, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Still hard to attract anyone when there has been nothing but issues for awhile. What did Barnes do that anyone else would have done different? Not buy a six pack? Besides that it was really just a cash follow issue. Not enough coming in so you have to start paying bills on an on need basis (daily operating costs) not what the money was meant for (building paid for properties) It is the whole business plan that is at fault.


Oh no there's a lot of problems caused by Barnes, you aren't giving enough credit. Let's see, where to begin, maybe not buy the f-ing AIRPORT, just saying. If this operation was trimmed down to the ski area, golf course, Hermitage Inn, and the construction of slopeside condos and homes this place would and will work. The 6-pack was a mistake, should have gone for a HS quad, but I understand the rich have wants so give them a Jackson Gore style bubble quad,that would've saved a million bucks on the lift at least. Then instead of Skytrac installing the sexiest looking fixed grips I've ever seen I'd go for preowned or just ya know normal fixed grips without the architecural stone work everywhere. Moving on to snowmaking, ya don't need the automatic Techno Alpin everywhere, just some good old Polecats or  the best HKDs will be cheaper and perform well. Then there's the super special "Cattillac" that could have been skipped along with the totally random prefabbed cape house at midmountain there's another $250,000 savings at least.a Honestly it's pretty easy to see how this did not work and could easily be brought back. 

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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Oh no there's a lot of problems caused by Barnes, you aren't giving enough credit. Let's see, where to begin, maybe not buy the f-ing AIRPORT, just saying. If this operation was trimmed down to the ski area, golf course, Hermitage Inn, and the construction of slopeside condos and homes this place would and will work. The 6-pack was a mistake, should have gone for a HS quad, but I understand the rich have wants so give them a Jackson Gore style bubble quad,that would've saved a million bucks on the lift at least. Then instead of Skytrac installing the sexiest looking fixed grips I've ever seen I'd go for preowned or just ya know normal fixed grips without the architecural stone work everywhere. Moving on to snowmaking, ya don't need the automatic Techno Alpin everywhere, just some good old Polecats or  the best HKDs will be cheaper and perform well. Then there's the super special "Cattillac" that could have been skipped along with the totally random prefabbed cape house at midmountain there's another $250,000 savings at least.a Honestly it's pretty easy to see how this did not work and could easily be brought back.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app


On the flipside though, given their target clientele, they may not of been able to attract the number of members they did without the on hill amenities.

I agree 100% that the airport move, even if apparently some of the back story was the purchase enabled them to get more developable land for future developable housing areas, wasn't a good move.

The six pack went in because the members wanted it, and enough of them apparently had family numbers that wouldn't fit on a quad together, and they literally HAD to compete with the lift system up the street that many members were used too and wanted at least the same for their club.

They were targeting a premium lifestyle. They were targeting clientele who often are used to high end amenities and facilities. They were sold that vision by Jim Barnes, and unless he delivered on at least some of it, my hunch is the membership wouldn't have reached the levels it did, as word of mouth from members to friends did play a roll in increasing membership numbers..  The old "keeping up with the Joneses" scenario

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## mister moose (Apr 30, 2018)

slatham said:


> I agree, Barnes is out. How they make it work with $26mm is debt is the real question.



Putting some numbers to it, what was there, 700 members?  Was there different classes of membership?

26mm at prime plus 1 is 6%, 6% on 26mm for 15 year term for 700 members is only $2,314 per member per year.  At 500 members paying it's $3,240 a year, per member.


----------



## icecoast1 (Apr 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Oh no there's a lot of problems caused by Barnes, you aren't giving enough credit. Let's see, where to begin, maybe not buy the f-ing AIRPORT, just saying. If this operation was trimmed down to the ski area, golf course, Hermitage Inn, and the construction of slopeside condos and homes this place would and will work. The 6-pack was a mistake, should have gone for a HS quad, but I understand the rich have wants so give them a Jackson Gore style bubble quad,that would've saved a million bucks on the lift at least. Then instead of Skytrac installing the sexiest looking fixed grips I've ever seen I'd go for preowned or just ya know normal fixed grips without the architecural stone work everywhere. Moving on to snowmaking, ya don't need the automatic Techno Alpin everywhere, just some good old Polecats or  the best HKDs will be cheaper and perform well. Then there's the super special "Cattillac" that could have been skipped along with the totally random prefabbed cape house at midmountain there's another $250,000 savings at least.a Honestly it's pretty easy to see how this did not work and could easily be brought back.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H820 using AlpineZone mobile app



It's hard to 2nd guess the 6 pack seeing as it was ordered and installed before the financial problems really began.  At that time they were still selling memberships and real estate and things were still looking up.  The downward spiral didn't really start until after it went in


----------



## sull1102 (Apr 30, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> It's hard to 2nd guess the 6 pack seeing as it was ordered and installed before the financial problems really began.  At that time they were still selling memberships and real estate and things were still looking up.  The downward spiral didn't really start until after it went in


No, it's too easy to second guess that heated bubble 6 when the ride time is under 5 minutes and it covers 1100 vert on a pretty well protected lift line where they planned to run weekends only and were replacing a triple and keeping a backup triple that covers 80% of the same terrain(aka capacity was not the issue here). The ski school doesn't use the lift, they primarily stick  to the lower mountain, so that isn't  even a big factor. This is all about keeping up with Mount Snow and Okemo when all they needed was a bubble high speed quad that would have provided an identical skier experience.

All that being said, did they get a deal from Dopp because Poma owns the So VT market lately or another customer backed out so the parts where readily available, ala how Ragged ended up with a 6 Pack.

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## sull1102 (Apr 30, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Putting some numbers to it, what was there, 700 members?  Was there different classes of membership?
> 
> 26mm at prime plus 1 is 6%, 6% on 26mm for 15 year term for 700 members is only $2,314 per member per year.  At 500 members paying it's $3,240 a year, per member.


700 sounds about right, 600 is what I heard a little over a year ago. There are different member levels, many. The people that signed on early paid in a lot less than what they're looking for now, there's also the equity level memberships, but I've got no clue if that means they actually have a stake or if it's just a cute title for the nice 4th floor locker room in the clubhouse.

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## Jully (Apr 30, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> It's hard to 2nd guess the 6 pack seeing as it was ordered and installed before the financial problems really began.  At that time they were still selling memberships and real estate and things were still looking up.  The downward spiral didn't really start until after it went in



If it was installed and then a bit afterwards financial problems began I would argue that those circumstances indicate the 6-pack may well have contributed to the problem. 

The complaint I've heard is that it was a big expenditure that they couldn't afford at the time. I do not know how it was paid for and if payments for it ACTUALLY strained the club's finances, but it appears to me as a relative outsider that it is definitely second guess-able.


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## Smellytele (May 1, 2018)

drjeff said:


> They were targeting a premium lifestyle. They were targeting clientele who often are used to high end amenities and facilities. They were sold that vision by Jim Barnes, and unless he delivered on at least some of it, my hunch is the membership wouldn't have reached the levels it did, as word of mouth from members to friends did play a roll in increasing membership numbers..  The old "keeping up with the Joneses" scenario
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Wonder if these people are still friends?

Is there a definitive answer that Barnes is out?


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## drjeff (May 1, 2018)

A picture was put up this afternoon on their Instagram page of some of their golf course maintenance staff removing the winter covers from the greens....

Probably not a bad sign for their operations outlook

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## icecoast1 (May 1, 2018)

drjeff said:


> A picture was put up this afternoon on their Instagram page of some of their golf course maintenance staff removing the winter covers from the greens....
> 
> Probably not a bad sign for their operations outlook
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Could have very well been done at the request of the bank, hard to sell a golf course if all your greens are covered and dead.  Memorial day weekend will be the telling sign, in years past it had been when they started ramping back up for the summer.   Should be a lot clearer then if they're  actually operating or just doing basic maintenance until its sold


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## Smellytele (May 1, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> Could have very well been done at the request of the bank, hard to sell a golf course if all your greens are covered and dead.  Memorial day weekend will be the telling sign, in years past it had been when they started ramping back up for the summer.   Should be a lot clearer then if they're  actually operating or just doing basic maintenance until its sold



They got a 26m loan as noted above so not so sure who would be selling???


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## icecoast1 (May 1, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> They got a 26m loan as noted above so not so sure who would be selling???



I might have misread the article but it seemed like they had an offer but were still working through the details of it?  The latest article is saying it's going to court to decide if it's going to a receiver or they could use that loan so the work being done at the golf course could very well be the bank just keeping things in proper order as they have been the last few weeks.  Barnes still hasn't paid his taxes so he can't even legally have employees working


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## drjeff (May 1, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> I might have misread the article but it seemed like they had an offer but were still working through the details of it?  The latest article is saying it's going to court to decide if it's going to a receiver or they could use that loan so the work being done at the golf course could very well be the bank just keeping things in proper order as they have been the last few weeks.  Barnes still hasn't paid his taxes so he can't even legally have employees working


I've heard from 2 member friends the last few days, that apparently the final approval of the deal is just a formality, as Bershire Bank is more than happy to get paid and not go through auction process...

One friend isn't sure of Barnes's status going forward, while the other, seems to think that he will be removed from any operational and/or promotions duties for the club....

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## Glenn (May 2, 2018)

This story just keeps getting more interesting!


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## drjeff (May 2, 2018)

My hunch how this eventually ends....

The club with the ski are and golf course will continue to operate as Members have come to expect. Annual dues will be probably double (or more) from what they were before. Jim Barnes will be out in any administrative roll for the club at all.  Jim Barnes will be facing a few lawsuits, mainly from whose who bought property from the club and never had the work finished.  The real estate holdings of the club with respect to multiple local inns and buildings they purchased will see a number of them sold off. The member driven finance board will be keeping a very close eye on the club's finances with Jim Barnes out of their way. There will be a high degree of transparency between the finance board and the members. Assuming the overall economy doesn't tank in the next few years, you'll once again see an uptick in new members in 2 to 3 years (presuming this does all go through in the next few months). Peak/Mount Snow won't, and hasn't looked at buying back the facility. Possibly the Stratton connection may be a roll in the financing of the new deal.... Still TBD....


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2018)

drjeff said:


> My hunch how this eventually ends....
> 
> Jim Barnes will be facing a few lawsuits, mainly from whose who bought property from the club and never had the work finished.



Jim Barnes will be facing? Hopefully he wasn't stupid enough to have this in his name and not a corporation. It would be the club that would be facing litigation.


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## drjeff (May 2, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Jim Barnes will be facing? Hopefully he wasn't stupid enough to have this in his name and not a corporation. It would be the club that would be facing litigation.




In theory, that's correct.....

In this case, I wouldn't be so sure that he took all the necessary steps to shield his personal liability


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## sull1102 (May 2, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Jim Barnes will be facing? Hopefully he wasn't stupid enough to have this in his name and not a corporation. It would be the club that would be facing litigation.


He is already facing multiple lawsuits against him for financial hijinks and wrongful termination as well as multiple local and federal investigations.

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## slatham (May 2, 2018)

If he committed fraud, misrepresentations, outright lied etc he personally will have culpability.


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## icecoast1 (May 2, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Jim Barnes will be facing? Hopefully he wasn't stupid enough to have this in his name and not a corporation. It would be the club that would be facing litigation.



It was his company which he was the president of and he was the one doing the shady stuff,  how is anyone other than him liable?


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## Smellytele (May 3, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> It was his company which he was the president of and he was the one doing the shady stuff,  how is anyone other than him liable?



If the company is still in business and he is out, it is the company that is the responsible entity not the individual. Corporate law.


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## cdskier (May 3, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> If the company is still in business and he is out, it is the company that is the responsible entity not the individual. Corporate law.



I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that a couple former execs at my company were specifically named in a lawsuit from another former employee even though they were gone by that point. No idea what the end result was or will be, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time an executive was specifically named in a suit.


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## Smellytele (May 3, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that a couple former execs at my company were specifically named in a lawsuit from another former employee even though they were gone by that point. No idea what the end result was or will be, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time an executive was specifically named in a suit.



Did he do anything illegal (besides cutting trails where he wasn't supposed to) or just run into money issues?


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## icecoast1 (May 4, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Did he do anything illegal (besides cutting trails where he wasn't supposed to) or just run into money issues?



He was taking progress payments  that were contractually supposed to go towards paying contractors to build houses and condos and using it to pay other debts.  Essentially a ponzi scheme.  Collecting money for sales tax and using it for business operations and not turning it over to the state is illegal too, no?


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## crystalmountainskier (May 10, 2018)

Two parties interested
http://www.reformer.com/stories/two-groups-eye-hermitage-purchase,539325


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## sull1102 (May 11, 2018)

And in a separate Reformer piece I just read they mention that the construction on the lower mountain, lookers left, is being foreclosed upon as well, for $1-million(not much at all for 90% of members at the Club OR any respectable upstanding condo developer). This really is starting to look like a hilarious situation where total scum(or just complete and utter moronic fools) are using mother nature's good looks to con the rich out of cash quick.

Even the new "savior" is pretty entertaining, he looks 100% fake, maybe even worse than Jim. Guy claims he has this magical final seconds offer of $26-million and yet cannot pay $5 grand in condo fees up the street........... RIGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTT. If the town/state officials are stupid enough, or corrupt enough because I am starting to think they are very much involved in this money maker for all but the littlest guy, to fall for this garbage then I hope it all burns to the ground(not literally, that Clubhouse is way too nice to lose) in a blaze of glory someday soon and then the town gets to stare at a barren mountain with no tax revenue. This is just silly.


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## icecoast1 (May 13, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> And in a separate Reformer piece I just read they mention that the construction on the lower mountain, lookers left, is being foreclosed upon as well, for $1-million(not much at all for 90% of members at the Club OR any respectable upstanding condo developer). This really is starting to look like a hilarious situation where total scum(or just complete and utter moronic fools) are using mother nature's good looks to con the rich out of cash quick.
> 
> Even the new "savior" is pretty entertaining, he looks 100% fake, maybe even worse than Jim. Guy claims he has this magical final seconds offer of $26-million and yet cannot pay $5 grand in condo fees up the street........... RIGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTT. If the town/state officials are stupid enough, or corrupt enough because I am starting to think they are very much involved in this money maker for all but the littlest guy, to fall for this garbage then I hope it all burns to the ground(not literally, that Clubhouse is way too nice to lose) in a blaze of glory someday soon and then the town gets to stare at a barren mountain with no tax revenue. This is just silly.



Something doesnt smell right there.  Almost as if it's a friend of Barnes and/or a backroom deal with Barnes so he doesnt lose it all to the bank.  And the alleged deal is already void because barnes missed a payment.  I'm sure the bank doesnt care what happens as long as they get paid but the only shot the place has to succeed long term is if it goes through foreclosure and gets sold to the right person/s such as the group of members that wanted to buy it from Barnes before.  They need to completely rid themselves of Barnes and anyone like him or associated with him


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## slatham (May 19, 2018)

http://digital.vpr.net/post/judge-appoints-receiver-oversee-hermitage-ski-resort#stream/0


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## sull1102 (May 19, 2018)

GOOD NEWS!!! The State of Vermont finally had an uncorrupt person step up and do the right thing here instead of allowing this disaster to continue under Barnes and his friends. This will be much better for the Club in the long run.


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## Smellytele (May 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> GOOD NEWS!!!  This will be much better for the Club in the long run.



I know buying the extra inns didn't help but maybe the whole concept of the private ski club may be a major part of the issue.


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## machski (May 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> GOOD NEWS!!! The State of Vermont finally had an uncorrupt person step up and do the right thing here instead of allowing this disaster to continue under Barnes and his friends. This will be much better for the Club in the long run.


Maybe, but I don't think receivership put in place by the bank was what the club members necessarily wanted.  An interesting saga to continue to follow.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (May 20, 2018)

Receivership may be the only way to truly get Barnes out of the picture. I'm sure that there were other more palatable options that members had attempted, but ultimately it appears that those wouldn't of gotten Barnes out of the picture....

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## icecoast1 (May 20, 2018)

machski said:


> Maybe, but I don't think receivership put in place by the bank was what the club members necessarily wanted.  An interesting saga to continue to follow.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



It's still better for them than the backroom deal with Barnes that was being proposed as an alternative.   It gets Barnes completely out of the picture provided the bank completes the foreclosure process and it goes to auction.  Then they just buy it at auction...


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## thetrailboss (May 21, 2018)

Looks like Barnes is done.


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## drjeff (May 22, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Looks like Barnes is done.



For the sake of friends that I have that are members there, I really hope that he's not like a herpes lesion, in that he goes away for a while, and then all of a sudden, BAM, comes roaring back!! :lol:


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## sull1102 (May 28, 2018)

VT Digger article from a few days ago says the golf course is not opening this year. That's a pretty bad shot to take for the Club and members. No golf=no activity at the Club=no revenue.

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## icecoast1 (May 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> VT Digger article from a few days ago says the golf course is not opening this year. That's a pretty bad shot to take for the Club and members. No golf=no activity at the Club=no revenue.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



The bank probably only wants to do the basics to keep it in selling shape.  It will be interesting to see what happens for the winter of it isn't sold yet, the judge is requiring another motion by the bank to allow the reciever to ready the mountain for the winter and potentially operate it, even if/when its approved you would have to think things would get scaled back quite considerably and given the financial situation they may struggle to find staff to even operated it


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## drjeff (May 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> VT Digger article from a few days ago says the golf course is not opening this year. That's a pretty bad shot to take for the Club and members. No golf=no activity at the Club=no revenue.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app





icecoast1 said:


> The bank probably only wants to do the basics to keep it in selling shape.  It will be interesting to see what happens for the winter of it isn't sold yet, the judge is requiring another motion by the bank to allow the reciever to ready the mountain for the winter and potentially operate it, even if/when its approved you would have to think things would get scaled back quite considerably and given the financial situation they may struggle to find staff to even operated it



The reality is with that little play the course got, and I will 100% say that of the 2 local courses up there, the Mount Snow Golf Club and the Hermitage Golf Club (as a single digit handicapper, I prefer the layout of the Hermitage's course over Mount Snow's course), that even if it was open for public play, chances are that in what it would cost to keep staff employed to keep the course in shape, especially the tees and greens, in satisfactory condition for any future possible sale, I question if any revenue they would generate from greens fees would offset the added cost of pro shop staff, cart maintenance and/or lease (most golf courses lease their fleet of rental carts instead of owning them) and/or food and beverage staff/costs for the course vs just keeping a few on staff to maintain the grasses and run the irrigation system and do any needed work as it arises (fix blown out irrigation pipes, removed downed trees post storms, etc) makes any financial sense.

In the end, my guess is that while the Mount Snow golf club will see an up tick in annual business as a result of this, the valley really hasn't been an area that in all but a few days a golf season, really has the need for 2 courses...


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## Smellytele (May 28, 2018)

I know the ski are can't be open to the public but can the golf course?


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## sull1102 (May 28, 2018)

Yes, it is open to the public midweek, or was rather.


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## drjeff (May 29, 2018)

Yup, Monday - Thursday it was open to the public, with members being able to reserve tee times about a week or so before the public could as I recall (not that one really needed a tee time there with the volume, or more likely lack of volume, of play there) and then it functioned as a full, members and their guests only, private course Friday-Sunday.  

Even then, when you'd drive by the course on a Saturday, mid morning (typically a courses busiest time) you'd rarely see more than a couple of foursomes out there.

If that course did more than 10,000 rounds a year, which is a low number by golf course standards, I'd be surprised based on what I've seen and experienced there....


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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2018)

Update:  no skiing next year?!

http://www.reformer.com/stories/bank-pitches-receivers-role-at-hermitage-properties,540854



> Glynn said Tantleff should not be responsible for preparing the ski resort to open this coming winter unless the court orders him to do so. The bank wants Tantleff to change passwords and signatures on bank accounts; secure the liquor inventory and computer data; clean refrigerators and food; inspect the property and create an inventory; change locks; keep track of personal property left by members and returned; and prepare a budget for the receivership operation.



The Club objects:  http://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-objects-to-receivers-scope,540971


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## sull1102 (May 31, 2018)

So this is the real showdown about whether or not the Hermitage comes back under new owners or if something totally different comes in. If the bank gets its way then the club is gone, NELSAP as of March 2018.

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## thetrailboss (May 31, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> So this is the real showdown about whether or not the Hermitage comes back under new owners or if something totally different comes in. If the bank gets its way then the club is gone, NELSAP as of March 2018.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



First NELSAP area with a six-pack!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Killingtime (May 31, 2018)

Hahaha good one Trail Boss but I wouldn't count it out yet. For the right price someone will step in and take it over. Berkshire Bank and other creditors will have to take a haircut on it though. How do you make a small fortune? Take a large fortune and buy a ski resort that has no chance of being a Killington, Stratton or Stowe. But seriously, this thing has mismanagement written all over it. With the right operator I have to believe it could work.


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## icecoast1 (Jun 1, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> So this is the real showdown about whether or not the Hermitage comes back under new owners or if something totally different comes in. If the bank gets its way then the club is gone, NELSAP as of March 2018.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



I wouldn't be shocked to see the members that were trying to buy it from Barnes bid on it at auction.  I'd be shocked to see it end up on NELSAP, theres a lot of people with a lot of money that want to see the place operate, real money too not the phoney monopoly money Barnes was playing with


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## Glenn (Jun 1, 2018)

I would hope an agreement could be found. I don't think it benefits anyone for the area to go into NELSAP mode.


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## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2018)

Glenn said:


> I would hope an agreement could be found. I don't think it benefits anyone for the area to go into NELSAP mode.



If the owners of the homes no longer have to pay yearly dues to run the ski area/golf course/ clubhouse it may cut into the homes worth but they still own these homes. Throwing good money after bad will not benefit them either and if they have to throw more money at it. Is it worth it just to keep the homes worth more? As an example if you had to throw in 1m just to make your property worth 200k more.


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## sull1102 (Jun 1, 2018)

Don't forget Mount Snow is booming so those home values are going to go up regardless. They might take a small dip, but the private homes will rebound quickly. Same with the Chamonix townhouses. If some developer could separate that operation and build it out then you have a good option for townhouses with a luxurious entry road. 

Does anyone else feel like this all hinges on the six pack and it's value? My feeling is if that lift off removed the mountain does not have a bright future, or any future because no one is paying to replace it someday and the triples can only do so much. Then the question becomes how much is the six pack worth as is right now? I wouldn't be shocked if the bank has asked around a little to see who is willing to pay what for it just to get an idea. Of the numbers were low, like $5 million fine, but if someone was feeling crazy and said $8-9 million would it be worth it to get back half the loan in one quick shot? How much is the club really going to sell for? It's not getting up to $15-20 million, no chance in hell. 

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## bdfreetuna (Jun 1, 2018)

Would love for Haystack to once again be a less crowded alternative to Mount Snow. TBH I think the conditions would be right for Mount Snow to buy it again, and they might want to if there is another bidder in line.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> I wouldn't be shocked to see the members that were trying to buy it from Barnes bid on it at auction.  I'd be shocked to see it end up on NELSAP, theres a lot of people with a lot of money that want to see the place operate, real money too not the phoney monopoly money Barnes was playing with



I also seriously think that it will probably resurface.


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## cdskier (Jun 1, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Does anyone else feel like this all hinges on the six pack and it's value? My feeling is if that lift off removed the mountain does not have a bright future, or any future because no one is paying to replace it someday and the triples can only do so much. Then the question becomes how much is the six pack worth as is right now? I wouldn't be shocked if the bank has asked around a little to see who is willing to pay what for it just to get an idea. Of the numbers were low, like $5 million fine, but if someone was feeling crazy and said $8-9 million would it be worth it to get back half the loan in one quick shot?



Considering the lift was $7.3M brand new, if someone would be willing to pay 8-9M for it used they would be certifiably insane. You can argue it doesn't have a ton of hours on it, but it is still a used lift.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Don't forget Mount Snow is booming so those home values are going to go up regardless. They might take a small dip, but the private homes will rebound quickly. Same with the Chamonix townhouses. If some developer could separate that operation and build it out then you have a good option for townhouses with a luxurious entry road.
> 
> Does anyone else feel like this all hinges on the six pack and it's value? My feeling is if that lift off removed the mountain does not have a bright future, or any future because no one is paying to replace it someday and the triples can only do so much. Then the question becomes how much is the six pack worth as is right now? I wouldn't be shocked if the bank has asked around a little to see who is willing to pay what for it just to get an idea. Of the numbers were low, like $5 million fine, but if someone was feeling crazy and said $8-9 million would it be worth it to get back half the loan in one quick shot? How much is the club really going to sell for? It's not getting up to $15-20 million, no chance in hell.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app




Dumb question.  What was the initial install price?


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## cdskier (Jun 1, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Dumb question.  What was the initial install price?



Hah! You posted that at the same time that I posted the answer in my previous post - $7.3M


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## Jully (Jun 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Considering the lift was $7.3M brand new, if someone would be willing to pay 8-9M for it used they would be certifiably insane. You can argue it doesn't have a ton of hours on it, but it is still a used lift.



I would be floored if anyone paid more than $5.5 million. Still might be enough regardless to make the bank want to sell.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Hah! You posted that at the same time that I posted the answer in my previous post - $7.3M



Great minds think alike!  $7.3 m.  So someone would want a hefty discount.  I'd think that the price would be about $3.7-4 m or so. 

Unfortunately a lot of lifts nowadays are custom engineered for their location and application.  So a remove and replace proposition is not as easy as it might appear.

Maybe Magic is looking for a six-pack?


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 1, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Dumb question.  What was the initial install price?



$6,902,632


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## mbedle (Jun 1, 2018)

Keep in mind that the actually lift did not cost 6.9 million, I am sure that number includes all the engineering, design work, delivery and install costs.


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## machski (Jun 1, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Don't forget Mount Snow is booming so those home values are going to go up regardless. They might take a small dip, but the private homes will rebound quickly. Same with the Chamonix townhouses. If some developer could separate that operation and build it out then you have a good option for townhouses with a luxurious entry road.
> 
> Does anyone else feel like this all hinges on the six pack and it's value? My feeling is if that lift off removed the mountain does not have a bright future, or any future because no one is paying to replace it someday and the triples can only do so much. Then the question becomes how much is the six pack worth as is right now? I wouldn't be shocked if the bank has asked around a little to see who is willing to pay what for it just to get an idea. Of the numbers were low, like $5 million fine, but if someone was feeling crazy and said $8-9 million would it be worth it to get back half the loan in one quick shot? How much is the club really going to sell for? It's not getting up to $15-20 million, no chance in hell.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Well, for the time being, the lift is going no where.  The bank asked to put it in receivership to keep the property in functional shape.  That means maintaining lifts where they are and keeping them operational.  Now, if the bank wants to buy Hermitage out of its own receivership, I guess they could then sell the lift.  But given they opted for receivership, sounds like an auction to sell the entire resort off is the first option that needs to be taken.  If that fails (as in no qualified bidders), I would think then the bank would terminate the receivership and liquidate assets.


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## mbedle (Jul 12, 2018)

Looks like some of the members are pushing to lease the ski area this winter to keep it operational. 

https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/12/hermitage-club-members-want-to-lease-haystack-for-ski-season/


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## slatham (Jul 12, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Looks like some of the members are pushing to lease the ski area this winter to keep it operational.
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2018/07/12/hermitage-club-members-want-to-lease-haystack-for-ski-season/



Sad story. Hope they can operate this winter but that seems a tall task. And the white knight is nowhere to be seen.......


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## deadheadskier (Jul 12, 2018)

slatham said:


> Sad story. Hope they can operate this winter but that seems a tall task. And the white knight is nowhere to be seen.......


I think the overall problem here is the property owner's / investors didn't properly vet Barnes and his plan.  He was the White Knight providing this exclusive club that I totally get the appeal to; terrain inadequacy aside and if you could afford it.  Barnes was a great salesman and bad operations guy. I'm not even sure a great operations guy could have made Haystack work. 

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## icecoast1 (Jul 13, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the overall problem here is the property owner's / investors didn't properly vet Barnes and his plan.  He was the White Knight providing this exclusive club that I totally get the appeal to; terrain inadequacy aside and if you could afford it.  Barnes was a great salesman and bad operations guy. I'm not even sure a great operations guy could have made Haystack work.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



It could have worked and still could work with the right person, Barnes was just horribly inept.

Seems like a pretty uphill battle for the members trying to lease it out for the winter, not only funding it as well as securing the equipment needed to operate when most every vendor in the industry is owed money, but also finding staff to work there.


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## sull1102 (Jul 13, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I think the overall problem here is the property owner's / investors didn't properly vet Barnes and his plan.  He was the White Knight providing this exclusive club that I totally get the appeal to; terrain inadequacy aside and if you could afford it.  Barnes was a great salesman and bad operations guy. I'm not even sure a great operations guy could have made Haystack work.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Being sort of on the inside for the last full winter of operations back in 16/17, I remember almost daily conversations amongst us lower level employees about how much money was being left on the table. The office backend and leadership was a disaster in that regard. It was just a lack of real experience doing these jobs, you had a lot of people also on cruise control, people Barnes probably thought would excel but instead they all walked around like they had already achieved something and had been in the industry 45+ years. Having been at Mount Snow the year before, it was really obvious the major issues like this. Mountain ops seemed to run pretty well because they simply did what they needed to do and you knew to stay out of the way. 

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## Glenn (Jul 13, 2018)

Hope something can be done. The longer stuff sits, the more capital it'll take to get it up and running again.


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## VTKilarney (Jul 13, 2018)

Is the golf course being maintained - because those can go to hell very quickly.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 13, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> It could have worked and still could work with the right person, Barnes was just horribly inept.
> 
> Seems like a pretty uphill battle for the members trying to lease it out for the winter, not only funding it as well as securing the equipment needed to operate when most every vendor in the industry is owed money, but also finding staff to work there.



Can you name a private members only ski area that was/is successful?


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## slatham (Jul 13, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> Can you name a private members only ski area that was/is successful?



I do not know the details but my understanding is that Yellowstone Club is currently in good shape, but that of course is after the bankruptcy and fraud caused by the first developer (which after 10 years was resolved 6 months ago).

There apparently there's a new club in Colorado - Cimarron Mountain Club, Colorado.

And there's HoliMont, New York, though I believe they are open to the public during the week?


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## jaytrem (Jul 13, 2018)

slatham said:


> And there's HoliMont, New York, though I believe they are open to the public during the week?



Correct, I skied there last year.  Same deal with Hunt Hollow out that way.  There are a load of successful private places.  But almost all are low key compared to what the Hermitage was trying to do.  Lots of surface lift only type places, and there's also a few up in Ontario with high speed lifts.  Yellowstone, Holimont and Hermitage are the only privates that I can think of off hand in the US with high speeds.


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## drjeff (Jul 13, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Is the golf course being maintained - because those can go to hell very quickly.



I can say with 100% certainty from having driven by the golf course on Wednesday, that it is being maintained, with tees, greens, fairways and rough all being cut to appropriate length, and the staff still on hand was even in the process of fixing a portion of the irrigation system alongside of the 10th green.

While there weren't any flags in the greens or tee markers out, it sure looked like one could walk 18 and play a normal round, short of not being able to hole out a putt


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## HowieT2 (Jul 13, 2018)

slatham said:


> I do not know the details but my understanding is that Yellowstone Club is currently in good shape, but that of course is after the bankruptcy and fraud caused by the first developer (which after 10 years was resolved 6 months ago).
> 
> There apparently there's a new club in Colorado - Cimarron Mountain Club, Colorado.
> 
> And there's HoliMont, New York, though I believe they are open to the public during the week?


thanks.  yellowstone famously went bust just like hermitage.  Its gotta be a tough business model.


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## x10003q (Jul 13, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> thanks.  yellowstone famously went bust just like hermitage.  Its gotta be a tough business model.



The YC Club is solvent right now. It is way different than Hermitage on every level.

The Yellowstone Club went bankrupt because the original owner, Tim Blixseth (and his wife), borrowed $375million using Yellowstone as collateral. They were accused of keeping about $200million and trying to start another RE business with the rest of the money. The  other business they tried to start went under and that forced YC into bankrupcy. It seems that it would have not gone through bankruptcy if Blixseth had never taken out the $375 million loan.


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## crystalmountainskier (Jul 13, 2018)

x10003q said:


> The YC Club is solvent right now. It is way different than Hermitage on every level.
> 
> The Yellowstone Club went bankrupt because the original owner, Tim Blixseth (and his wife), borrowed $375million using Yellowstone as collateral. They were accused of keeping about $200million and trying to start another RE business with the rest of the money. The  other business they tried to start went under and that forced YC into bankrupcy. It seems that it would have not gone through bankruptcy if Blixseth had never taken out the $375 million loan.



Mr. Blixseth spent 15 months in prison.  Doubt Barnes will.


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## sull1102 (Jul 14, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Is the golf course being maintained - because those can go to hell very quickly.


It is to a degree, I drive by a couple times a week usual and you can tell that it's a closed golf course. They seem to have a funny strategy were the grass is cut early Friday and by the following Wednesday it's looking a little long. Overall the "rough" is a the only thing that really shouts out closed course. You could easily play a very nice peaceful 18 but it would be slow as they say. They're keeping it nice enough looking so a buyer can tour the place and see the potential. 

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## mriceyman (Jul 14, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I can say with 100% certainty from having driven by the golf course on Wednesday, that it is being maintained, with tees, greens, fairways and rough all being cut to appropriate length, and the staff still on hand was even in the process of fixing a portion of the irrigation system alongside of the 10th green.
> 
> While there weren't any flags in the greens or tee markers out, it sure looked like one could walk 18 and play a normal round, short of not being able to hole out a putt



Sounds like my kind of golf.. no short game needed!


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## slatham (Jul 16, 2018)

"According to the receiver, lift maintenance alone in preparation for the 2018-19 season would cost $300,000. VTDigger also reports that grooming equipment has been repossessed."

$300k to get lifts running - lifts that ran without issue last year (I presume) - that sounds very high. Anyone have any insight into that being a real number?


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## AdironRider (Jul 16, 2018)

slatham said:


> "According to the receiver, lift maintenance alone in preparation for the 2018-19 season would cost $300,000. VTDigger also reports that grooming equipment has been repossessed."
> 
> $300k to get lifts running - lifts that ran without issue last year (I presume) - that sounds very high. Anyone have any insight into that being a real number?



I don't really have a handle of their scope of operations, but including labor for electricians, foreman, general labor, plus any ancillary costs, and that number doesn't seem unreasonable.


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## Glenn (Jul 16, 2018)

I saw that same figure in the Deerfield Valley News this weekend. It sounds like keeping things going is a lot of work. And I have to imagine the longer they sit, the more work it is. Especially if you don't have someone onsite checking things. Maybe not the greatest example, but similar to a car that sits for a period of time.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 16, 2018)

Glenn said:


> I saw that same figure in the Deerfield Valley News this weekend. It sounds like keeping things going is a lot of work. And I have to imagine the longer they sit, the more work it is. Especially if you don't have someone onsite checking things. Maybe not the greatest example, but similar to a car that sits for a period of time.



One of the articles mentioned it was going to be more labor and cost intensive to get them going because they are sitting all summer without any maintenance.  They also had electrical problems and other issues with some of them last winter that might not have been fixed which could also be part of it


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## sull1102 (Jul 16, 2018)

I'd like to think the Dopp 6 pack and the Skytrac quads would be okay or at least need minimum work. Then again members won't care to run the quad down to the inn for the one trail. To run that place at 100% operation you need 3 lifts, 2 if you give up on the lower mountain and keep Witches. So really in an average winter you need Barnstormer only for most operations and something like 20 days a year run Witches. Members might be satisfied with just a renamed 6 pack running and the clubhouse open.

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## drjeff (Jul 17, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I'd like to think the Dopp 6 pack and the Skytrac quads would be okay or at least need minimum work. Then again members won't care to run the quad down to the inn for the one trail. To run that place at 100% operation you need 3 lifts, 2 if you give up on the lower mountain and keep Witches. So really in an average winter you need Barnstormer only for most operations and something like 20 days a year run Witches. Members might be satisfied with just a renamed 6 pack running and the clubhouse open.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Agree.  From what I understand, unless one owned one of the condo's/homes near the lower mountain area and was going to/from their property, about the only time the lower mountain saw much use was when either the Hermitage Race Team or the Mount Snow Academy alpine athletes (who trained at the Hermitage on Friday's and weekends and holiday weeks) set training courses there as opposed to on their homologated race trail, Rocker, up on the main mountain, so not running the lower quad would be an easy choice if it had to be made.

I'm guessing if they just ran the 6 pack, made some snow, and had the clubhouse, and possibly mid mountain lodge up and running, that the majority of members would be satisfied enough this coming season


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## icecoast1 (Jul 17, 2018)

They're going to have a tough time finding staff to work there given the way barnes treated them last year and the current financial state.  Even if they pull off a miracle everywhere else, which includes finding grooming equipment, if theres no staff to run the place it's all a waste of time


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## sull1102 (Jul 17, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> They're going to have a tough time finding staff to work there given the way barnes treated them last year and the current financial state.  Even if they pull off a miracle everywhere else, which includes finding grooming equipment, if theres no staff to run the place it's all a waste of time


I wonder if all the grooming equipment was picked up or if they owned on or two of them outright, maybe an older one from the first couple years. With Barnes gone completely and a new team just running barebones might find a way to lease a unit or two. They could get away with just one unit and one employee if the guy is experienced by keeping the weekends only schedule and grooming Thursday then hitting the main runs Friday, Saturday night. That's still an almost full time employee if they do 12hr shifts for the 3 days. 

Realistically I think they'll need to figure out just how bare bones do they get. You could run the mountain with a team of 12 people total if everyone understands this is bare bones just to keep things running, people work as a team, and the weather cooperates. 

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## tumbler (Jul 18, 2018)

Do they even have qualified lift mechanics left?  They are not exactly growing on trees...


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## WWF-VT (Jul 18, 2018)

I still can't believe that this place was stupid enough to install a six pack chair...but if you're going to waste money you might as well go big.


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## AdironRider (Jul 18, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I wonder if all the grooming equipment was picked up or if they owned on or two of them outright, maybe an older one from the first couple years. With Barnes gone completely and a new team just running barebones might find a way to lease a unit or two. They could get away with just one unit and one employee if the guy is experienced by keeping the weekends only schedule and grooming Thursday then hitting the main runs Friday, Saturday night. That's still an almost full time employee if they do 12hr shifts for the 3 days.
> 
> Realistically I think they'll need to figure out just how bare bones do they get. You could run the mountain with a team of 12 people total if everyone understands this is bare bones just to keep things running, people work as a team, and the weather cooperates.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app




Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. 

12 people cannot run a ski area.


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## FBGM (Jul 18, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I wonder if all the grooming equipment was picked up or if they owned on or two of them outright, maybe an older one from the first couple years. With Barnes gone completely and a new team just running barebones might find a way to lease a unit or two. They could get away with just one unit and one employee if the guy is experienced by keeping the weekends only schedule and grooming Thursday then hitting the main runs Friday, Saturday night. That's still an almost full time employee if they do 12hr shifts for the 3 days.
> 
> 
> Realistically I think they'll need to figure out just how bare bones do they get. You could run the mountain with a team of 12 people total if everyone understands this is bare bones just to keep things running, people work as a team, and the weather cooperates.
> ...



12 people huh? Sometimes I like to answer the phone while making snow. Even better, I’ll make your burger and scrub the shitter at the same time. Sounds like a Mount Snow best practice there.


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## drjeff (Jul 19, 2018)

*If* from this ski area management Monday morning hypothetical quarterbacking we're doing here, one is talking purely, 100% from a mountain ops standpoint, and not a food and beverage and/or guest services standpoint, and you're talking about just snowmaking, grooming and lift ops, with a resort operating schedule that is typically just 3 days a week (holiday weeks excluded) and just running their 6 pack, and maybe the witches triple as well, a crew of 12 or thereabouts might be able to pull it off.

With the right 12, and remember that a few of their core ops people who essentially are "Jack's of all trades" are still employed to maintain the facilities now for future perspective buyers, the ops side could work.  There were multiple times last year I read on a snowmakers FB group page, one of their lead snowmakers wishing that he had more than a crew of 3 per shift, so their snowmaking operations, in their fairly modern system that doesn't have a ton of capacity *could* be run very lean.  Grooming, 1 maybe 2 cats, or more likely 1 shift with 2 cats or 2 cats with 1 shift, could likely handle the grooming needs of a mountain of that size (especially if the lower mountain trails and the trails that lead back to the Hermitage Inn aren't in play) under most weather conditions. Add in a few for lift maintenance (and I'm not necessarily putting the folks who would operate the lifts in this crew, just the maintenance crews who are out doing line checks before 1st chair and responding when a sensor up on a tower goes off mid day), and the number a crew of 12 for PURELY Mtn Ops, not food and beverage and guest services needs, might very well be able to pull it off


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## sull1102 (Jul 19, 2018)

Should have been clear, I was speaking strictly about staff to run the ski area and maybe unlock the bathrooms and turn the heat and lights on inside the clubhouse at a member only resort that does not need to even have a front desk person if they don't want. Having worked there I know a little bit about what the operation entails and they could also cut Friday operations and hurt maybe 5 people. I was going to get into the bar and food staff etc but that's a different ballgame altogether and I'm not nearly as familiar. It is also all extra. We're talking about a one lift medium sized mountain running on the barest of bones being paid for out of pocket by members so they can have a private escape from Mount Snow crowds. I'd even say that if the weather started off bad they would not even attempt to open until Christmas break and would be very quick to pull the plug altogether. 

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## AdironRider (Jul 19, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Should have been clear, I was speaking strictly about staff to run the ski area and maybe unlock the bathrooms and turn the heat and lights on inside the clubhouse at a member only resort that does not need to even have a front desk person if they don't want. Having worked there I know a little bit about what the operation entails and they could also cut Friday operations and hurt maybe 5 people. I was going to get into the bar and food staff etc but that's a different ballgame altogether and I'm not nearly as familiar. It is also all extra. We're talking about a one lift medium sized mountain running on the barest of bones being paid for out of pocket by members so they can have a private escape from Mount Snow crowds. I'd even say that if the weather started off bad they would not even attempt to open until Christmas break and would be very quick to pull the plug altogether.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app




It doesn't matter. You can't run a ski area with just 12 people even with zero F&B. You need at least 4 people to run a lift alone. Snowmaking another 4, patrol needs 5-6 people. That leaves zero for maintenance or anything else. 

Labor laws and OSHA requirements alone make this pretty much an impossibility. This isn't some backyard rope tow, and not some ski bums for clientele either.


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## mtl1076 (Jul 19, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> It doesn't matter. You can't run a ski area with just 12 people even with zero F&B. You need at least 4 people to run a lift alone. Snowmaking another 4, patrol needs 5-6 people. That leaves zero for maintenance or anything else.
> 
> Labor laws and OSHA requirements alone make this pretty much an impossibility. This isn't some backyard rope tow, and not some ski bums for clientele either.



you can definitely run a one lift ski area with less than 12ppl.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 19, 2018)

drjeff said:


> *If* from this ski area management Monday morning hypothetical quarterbacking we're doing here, one is talking purely, 100% from a mountain ops standpoint, and not a food and beverage and/or guest services standpoint, and you're talking about just snowmaking, grooming and lift ops, with a resort operating schedule that is typically just 3 days a week (holiday weeks excluded) and just running their 6 pack, and maybe the witches triple as well, a crew of 12 or thereabouts might be able to pull it off.
> 
> With the right 12, and remember that a few of their core ops people who essentially are "Jack's of all trades" are still employed to maintain the facilities now for future perspective buyers, the ops side could work.  There were multiple times last year I read on a snowmakers FB group page, one of their lead snowmakers wishing that he had more than a crew of 3 per shift, so their snowmaking operations, in their fairly modern system that doesn't have a ton of capacity *could* be run very lean.  Grooming, 1 maybe 2 cats, or more likely 1 shift with 2 cats or 2 cats with 1 shift, could likely handle the grooming needs of a mountain of that size (especially if the lower mountain trails and the trails that lead back to the Hermitage Inn aren't in play) under most weather conditions. Add in a few for lift maintenance (and I'm not necessarily putting the folks who would operate the lifts in this crew, just the maintenance crews who are out doing line checks before 1st chair and responding when a sensor up on a tower goes off mid day), and the number a crew of 12 for PURELY Mtn Ops, not food and beverage and guest services needs, might very well be able to pull it off


 

Regardless of the #, which I think would needs to be higher, even getting 12 good employees to work there given the circumstances will be pretty difficult to impossible.  You need good experienced people in these positions that know what they're doing, not jack of all trades but master of none people.  Mountains that are financially stable and can consistently make payroll have a hard enough time finding good help let alone one like Haystack.


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## jaytrem (Jul 19, 2018)

mtl1076 said:


> you can definitely run a one lift ski area with less than 12ppl.



That's probably double the amount of a few small place I've been to out west.  No snowmaking helps though.  At one place in Idaho the owner was finishing up grooming when we got there, then worked various job all day.  Get a couple volunteers and you're even better. 

I think Bear Paw in MT was only paying the 3 lift attendants.  Volunteer ski patrol (maybe 4 guys) was cooking/selling food and there were few people working the ticket booth throughout the day.  And this great guy named Dave was running the place...

https://www.havredailynews.com/story/2015/01/23/local/hi-line-living-ski-bear-paw/502361.html


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## Smellytele (Jul 19, 2018)

jaytrem said:


> That's probably double the amount of a few small place I've been to out west.  No snowmaking helps though.  At one place in Idaho the owner was finishing up grooming when we got there, then worked various job all day.  Get a couple volunteers and you're even better.
> 
> I think Bear Paw in MT was only paying the 3 lift attendants.  Volunteer ski patrol (maybe 4 guys) was cooking/selling food and there were few people working the ticket booth throughout the day.  And this great guy named Dave was running the place...
> 
> https://www.havredailynews.com/story/2015/01/23/local/hi-line-living-ski-bear-paw/502361.html



The people who ski there are not going to volunteer to work there.


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## jaytrem (Jul 19, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> The people who ski there are not going to volunteer to work there.



I'm not so sure of that.  I think a good percentage of them would be happy to.  Do you actually know any of the members, or are you just making assumptions?  I'm not sure a lot of people would want to work the kitchen or scrub toilets.  But working the register or ticket checking, things like that, I think they would have no problem with.  Wouldn't need a lot fo hours from each person if each family chipped in time.  And you could no doubt pick up a few volunteer patrollers if you offer free skiing for their family.


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## sull1102 (Jul 19, 2018)

I think you could get a couple members kids some weekend seasonal work maybe answering phones and such, but being a private club there's no ticket sales going on and the liftie can check passes but they probably recognize most. 

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## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2018)

So, let me get this straight. I'm going to pay $90,950 to sign up + $9500 a year for my family and I have to volunteer to work a certain amount of hours at a resort that will have limited snowmaking and grooming on bland terrain, that's only open 3 days a week and holiday weeks. 

Where do I sign up?

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## drjeff (Jul 19, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> The people who ski there are not going to volunteer to work there.


Knowing a number of families who are members there with kids in the racing program around the age of my kids, I feel 99% certain that they could get some families to volunteer some time for the club if needed

I know this may come as a shock to many on AZ, but at their core, there are a bunch of Hermitage members who are just as passionate about this sport we all love dearly, as many members of this board. Their bank accounts may be quite different, but their love of the sport, and seeing their family and friends share their love for the sport is quite similar in many cases

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## jaytrem (Jul 19, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> So, let me get this straight. I'm going to pay $90,950 to sign up + $9500 a year for my family and I have to volunteer to work a certain amount of hours at a resort that will have limited snowmaking and grooming on bland terrain, that's only open 3 days a week and holiday weeks.
> 
> Where do I sign up?



The thing is, people are already signed up.  So now they can get nothing for their 30k-80k that they already paid.  Or possibly work a few hours, which they might actually enjoy the socialization part, and get to ski there this year.  Probably not happening anyway though.  Anyway, seems like the volunteers I've run in to at the clubs and non-profits are typically enjoying their "work" time more than paid staff.  No reason it would be different there.

Another problem the club has is a lot of people signed up at around half the current initiation fee and half the current annual fee.  So while you do have a lot of people that can easily handle the $9500 plus an extra $10000 this year.  You also have a bunch that either can't afford it or don't think it's worth the price.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 19, 2018)

Jeff - no doubt. Passion for the sport has nothing to do with your bank balance.  

Jay - I somewhat agree with your "already invested" point of view, but I also think about the kind of professional lives a lot of these members have and the reason behind joining the "club" in the first place. 

 Have to imagine that  the lower end members at minimum have $500k + a year family incomes.  There are limited occupations that offer that kind of return without serious time and stress commitment.  So, the appeal of the exclusivety is not having to deal with typical weekend resort madness.  Hermitage offers them an escape from the concrete jungle.  

Most probably don't want to volunteer. Heck, I bet many of these folks don't truly unwind and are managing their business while there.

It's interesting to speculate about how to keep the pace alive because none of us want to see another ski area closed. But knowing what the place is, the idea that it's gonna be run by 12 people + volunteers to open next year is very long odds. (You said that too).  

And for the members invested there, I hope I eat crow and you all can pull it off and create great memories next season

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## sull1102 (Jul 20, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Jeff - no doubt. Passion for the sport has nothing to do with your bank balance.
> 
> Jay - I somewhat agree with your "already invested" point of view, but I also think about the kind of professional lives a lot of these members have and the reason behind joining the "club" in the first place.
> 
> ...


$500K minimum would be double the income of the lower end that I personally know of. Don't forget people bought in when it was just getting going for a whole lot less. 

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## Glenn (Jul 20, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> So, let me get this straight. I'm going to pay $90,950 to sign up + $9500 a year for my family and I have to volunteer to work a certain amount of hours at a resort that will have limited snowmaking and grooming on bland terrain, that's only open 3 days a week and holiday weeks.
> 
> Where do I sign up?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I don't think anyone is talking about selling units; rather keeping things open for those who are already invested.


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## jaytrem (Jul 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> $500K minimum would be double the income of the lower end that I personally know of. Don't forget people bought in when it was just getting going for a whole lot less.



Yup, they were marketing to the 200K+ people not all that long ago.  That's is indeed a big difference from the 500K people.  So now if they raise the annual fee even more you lose X amount of members and might end up with less income from dues.  You now need to replace those people with the higher earners and hope they can find enough of them that aren't skeptical about the place staying in business.  Even if somebody had 100K to burn, do they really want to burn it on a such an unstable club?  I hope it all works out somehow, would hate to see it go permanently NELSAP, but I'm not feeling too optimistic.


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## sull1102 (Jul 20, 2018)

Driving around the area yesterday while hiking Mount Snow, perfect weather for it, I noticed a couple things of interest. The signs for the Hermitage Club golf course are gone mostly. The one at Spyglass Rd was pulled down and now says Haystack . Another sign on the road was removed altogether. The trails at the ski area are not being maintained too much from what I could see. On the other hand golf course looks perfect right now, really really nice.

It is interesting to see that there is a lot of construction going on all around. There is still a lot of new construction going up in town and one has to wonder, why would you buy a Club membership and build up there for more when you could get closer to Snow for less in a condo or get some real land for yourself.

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## drjeff (Jul 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Driving around the area yesterday while hiking Mount Snow, perfect weather for it, I noticed a couple things of interest. The signs for the Hermitage Club golf course are gone mostly. The one at Spyglass Rd was pulled down and now says Haystack . Another sign on the road was removed altogether. The trails at the ski area are not being maintained too much from what I could see. On the other hand golf course looks perfect right now, really really nice.
> 
> It is interesting to see that there is a lot of construction going on all around. There is still a lot of new construction going up in town and one has to wonder, why would you buy a Club membership and build up there for more when you could get closer to Snow for less in a condo or get some real land for yourself.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



With how good the golf course looked when I was up there last week, I wouldn't be surprised at all if one was to walk the course now, they'd see some divots in the tee boxes and ball marks in the greens.  I can't imagine that nobody hasn't walked a round or 2 on it this Summer, especially since from what I saw last week, there wasn't any signage around the pro shop/clubhouse saying "private property, no trespassing" or similar....

As for maintenance/mowing of the ski trails,  Lets see what happens come late Sept/Early Oct.  I certainly can speak from personal experience that a number of trails at Mount Snow don't see a mower until after Labor Day, and more often Oct 1st, every year


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## AdironRider (Jul 20, 2018)

This thread is jumping the shark. A bunch of high net worth individuals bumping chairs because they love the sport? 

I think we are seeing the effects of the July 1st pot legalization. You guys are high as a kite with your proposed solutions for this place.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 20, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> This thread is jumping the shark. A bunch of high net worth individuals bumping chairs because they love the sport?
> 
> I think we are seeing the effects of the July 1st pot legalization. You guys are high as a kite with your proposed solutions for this place.



Shit! I guess after all that smoking we forgot that community-run ski areas don't work whatsoever! What fools we are!


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## AdironRider (Jul 20, 2018)

Hermitage is about the exact opposite of a community run ski area.

Puff puff pass, the weed must be good in here!


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## ss20 (Jul 20, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> This thread is jumping the shark. A bunch of high net worth individuals bumping chairs because they love the sport?
> 
> I think we are seeing the effects of the July 1st pot legalization. You guys are high as a kite with your proposed solutions for this place.



The "12 people can run a ski area" debate had me rolling...:lol:


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## FBGM (Jul 20, 2018)

Maybe these guys should peddle oxy and pills through the resort for some extra profit like Peak Resorts did at Jack Frost.


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## sull1102 (Jul 20, 2018)

Alright well then, I enjoy how those who know the resort on a personal level have been talking about what is possible and how while the few who seem to have no familiarity with the Club whatsoever are adamant it cannot work. Also, had I known when I wrote 12 guys and gals that we would be debating it two days later then I would've done a lot more investigating. I think it's fair to go up to maybe 14-15 employees, that make anyone happy? Have any of you worked at a resort on a shoestring budget at all? Pretty sure there's a couple beloved mountains around here that have made things work with the tiniest of crews for years now and sometimes people work as a team or ya know do multiple jobs.

Also, we aren't talking about them running a community ski resort. We're talking can they spin ONE lift and make snow 20 nights this season, enough to open say four runs top to bottom. No ski school, no food, no bev(probably can't get the liquor license anyways), no valet, no ticket sales needed, nothing other than 4 lifties, 4-6 ski patrol that could be partially volunteer MAYBE, 1 groomer, maybe 2 if you can find a liftie, snowmaker, or maintenance guy for the second one even better. Snowmakers you could easily use during the year as lifties, maintenance, etc. Some people are acting like every hill out there has a staff of 25 running the place, not true.

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## ss20 (Jul 20, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Alright well then, I enjoy how those who know the resort on a personal level have been talking about what is possible and how while the few who seem to have no familiarity with the Club whatsoever are adamant it cannot work. Also, had I known when I wrote 12 guys and gals that we would be debating it two days later then I would've done a lot more investigating. I think it's fair to go up to maybe 14-15 employees, that make anyone happy? Have any of you worked at a resort on a shoestring budget at all? Pretty sure there's a couple beloved mountains around here that have made things work with the tiniest of crews for years now and sometimes people work as a team or ya know do multiple jobs.
> 
> Also, we aren't talking about them running a community ski resort. We're talking can they spin ONE lift and make snow 20 nights this season, enough to open say four runs top to bottom. No ski school, no food, no bev(probably can't get the liquor license anyways), no valet, no ticket sales needed, nothing other than 4 lifties, 4-6 ski patrol that could be partially volunteer MAYBE, 1 groomer, maybe 2 if you can find a liftie, snowmaker, or maintenance guy for the second one even better. Snowmakers you could easily use during the year as lifties, maintenance, etc. Some people are acting like every hill out there has a staff of 25 running the place, not true.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



So you're saying they should have...quite literally...ZERO cash flow and just bleed over the course of the season til a real solution can be worked out.  And you expect the 6-digit-salary earning, well-educated, financially responsible members of the Hermitage to agree to this out of "love of the sport".

How big do you want this financial hole to become???

Best course of action, IMO, let it stand idle for a year and take the time to find a economically viable solution to this nightmare.


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## sull1102 (Jul 21, 2018)

ss20 said:


> So you're saying they should have...quite literally...ZERO cash flow and just bleed over the course of the season til a real solution can be worked out.  And you expect the 6-digit-salary earning, well-educated, financially responsible members of the Hermitage to agree to this out of "love of the sport".
> 
> How big do you want this financial hole to become???
> 
> Best course of action, IMO, let it stand idle for a year and take the time to find a economically viable solution to this nightmare.


The members are looking to lease the ski area only for the winter, to keep it open as an amenity for their private club. I'm not sure what rev you think they are going to generate? At best they'll have a bar and kitchen open weekends maybe bringing in something. They can't sell tickets, no hotel/inn rooms to rent, no condo sales, no real estate sales, no ponzi schemes, and Vail I'm sorry but members won't be deal with parking fees either. Honestly you do bring up a good point about cash flow, but I think the answer to your question is yes, only because I don't see any possibile cash flow really happening period and this isn't for the public, so if the rich want to spend spend spend then go for it, not going to change any of us AZers 18/19 ski seasons.

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## Do Work (Jul 25, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Alright well then, I enjoy how those who know the resort on a personal level have been talking about what is possible and how while the few who seem to have no familiarity with the Club whatsoever are adamant it cannot work. Also, had I known when I wrote 12 guys and gals that we would be debating it two days later then I would've done a lot more investigating. I think it's fair to go up to maybe 14-15 employees, that make anyone happy? Have any of you worked at a resort on a shoestring budget at all? Pretty sure there's a couple beloved mountains around here that have made things work with the tiniest of crews for years now and sometimes people work as a team or ya know do multiple jobs.
> 
> Also, we aren't talking about them running a community ski resort. We're talking can they spin ONE lift and make snow 20 nights this season, enough to open say four runs top to bottom. No ski school, no food, no bev(probably can't get the liquor license anyways), no valet, no ticket sales needed, nothing other than 4 lifties, 4-6 ski patrol that could be partially volunteer MAYBE, 1 groomer, maybe 2 if you can find a liftie, snowmaker, or maintenance guy for the second one even better. Snowmakers you could easily use during the year as lifties, maintenance, etc. Some people are acting like every hill out there has a staff of 25 running the place, not true.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app




That would be possible if they kept their operational footprint small, but they didn't.  You'd need more staff than that just to run their bubble chair, as detachables are absolute hell on Ops staff.  Doubly for their snowmaking system- they've got more unnecessary hardware on the hill still in the plastic than I've ever seen in my life.  I could seriously go on for hours and hours about how ill-founded their business plan was/ how poorly it was carried out but that's a waste of time at this point.  

Sure, there's a path to operation for the Hermitage but they'd be smart to sell off a lot of their ridiculously overbuilt infrastructure.  There's just so much custom-built fat to trim, that's going to be a massive massive massive undertaking just to redefine what their operations should consist of.  

I'd love to get in and see just how much waste is floating around, what the liquid value of those assets really are, and what needs to be done to make the business solvent (not profitable since it's a private venture).  Until someone comes in there and rolls up their sleeves to start making tough calls, there will be no movement.  Even that, though, has to wait for the courts to finish their fandango.  The market exists for exclusivity, but not in the scope they had planned or built for- and my God the fact that they let the ship sail before they got the ok for their biggest arm of profitability in real estate- unforgivable.  Total reset button.


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## Newpylong (Jul 25, 2018)

Oh like all those $30,000 TF-10s on their trails that are used a few days a year?


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## sull1102 (Jul 25, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Oh like all those $30,000 TF-10s on their trails that are used a few days a year?


I think many of those will be on the move soon because there was some sort of relationship with Techno-Alpin and the management team at the Club, but I believe some of those guns may have been leased while others were being used for "testing" in the region as one T-A employee told me.

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## drjeff (Jul 27, 2018)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-club-may-have-new-lease-on-life,545918

And the next chapter in this circus.... Who knows if anything tangible will come out of it? Although the timing would allow "normal" off season prep work to let winter operations to happen....

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## Glenn (Jul 27, 2018)

Very interesting. Wonder if they'll be more activity there now.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 27, 2018)

drjeff said:


> https://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-club-may-have-new-lease-on-life,545918
> 
> And the next chapter in this circus.... Who knows if anything tangible will come out of it? Although the timing would allow "normal" off season prep work to let winter operations to happen....
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app




They'd be better off in the long run continuing with the foreclosure process and getting rid of Barnes.  This is just a short term bail out and they'll be in the same spot again in the not so distant future as long as Jim Barnes is involved


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## slatham (Jul 27, 2018)

Yeah makes sense a hedge funds gets involved. I love the contrast of Hermitage and Magic over the past two years. Go JM!


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## sull1102 (Jul 28, 2018)

I really do not see how a guy that has built up and run golf courses in Florida and the Caribbean with zero ski industry experience to speak of(at least in the article) is going to make the Club tick. There's just no way, he's not going to be able to offer those decades of experience worth of knowledge when those below him come for questions November-April. Maybe they are thinking the best bet is to transition into more of a golf focus and make the summer the primary draw. 

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## triguy914 (Jul 29, 2018)

people are missing the real point here. Oz Real Estate. The President (google -  steve orbuch oz real estate skiing) is a guy who used to have a share house right out of business school at Mt Snow. He's a skier and a hoity toity one, he can ski most blacks well, but not sure beyond that as I haven't skied with him in years. I think it's also important to note that Oz Real Estate held the debt on the Okemo/Sunapee/CB consortium that was bought out by the Vail deal. I'd also suggest that Sibley is not Barnes' Choice, but Oz's. I have zero doubt they are writing covenants on the debt that give them the ability to take control of the whole thing.


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## machski (Jul 29, 2018)

Yeah, the article made it sound like Barnes is on the out when this thing is a done deal.  Kind of surprised OZ jumped back into the ski business as they were basically out of it again, but a private club near NYC does make sense.  With a governing board running the thing, sounds more like a private club to me than a business venture to make money.  Should run ok now if I had to bet.

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## cdskier (Jul 29, 2018)

triguy914 said:


> people are missing the real point here. Oz Real Estate. The President (google -  steve orbuch oz real estate skiing) is a guy who used to have a share house right out of business school at Mt Snow. He's a skier and a hoity toity one, he can ski most blacks well, but not sure beyond that as I haven't skied with him in years. I think it's also important to note that Oz Real Estate held the debt on the Okemo/Sunapee/CB consortium that was bought out by the Vail deal. I'd also suggest that Sibley is not Barnes' Choice, but Oz's. I have zero doubt they are writing covenants on the debt that give them the ability to take control of the whole thing.



I knew Oz sounded familiar from something ski related but couldn't offhand remember what it was.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 29, 2018)

machski said:


> Yeah, the article made it sound like Barnes is on the out when this thing is a done deal.  Kind of surprised OZ jumped back into the ski business as they were basically out of it again, but a private club near NYC does make sense.  With a governing board running the thing, sounds more like a private club to me than a business venture to make money.  Should run ok now if I had to bet.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I might have misread it but it read to me like he'd still be around but the new GM and board of directors would be making the decisions.  If he is truly out of it completely, that would be a really good thing


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## machski (Jul 29, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> I might have misread it but it read to me like he'd still be around but the new GM and board of directors would be making the decisions.  If he is truly out of it completely, that would be a really good thing


The article was not very clear on Barnes moving forward.  I read it more that he was pushing the new deal to move the club forward, for the club and not necessarily for himself.  I guess time will tell, but it did sound like he would be out of the decision making process moving forward.

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## sull1102 (Aug 1, 2018)

He does own one of the larger properties on the lower mountain area. I wonder if he'll eventually be forced to sell that and get out completely.

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## triguy914 (Aug 2, 2018)

machski said:


> With a governing board running the thing, sounds more like a private club to me than a business venture to make money.  Should run ok now if I had to bet.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I can assure you that the ONLY way Oz is looking at this is to make $, that is all they care about on the business side. Their ego's are based on IRR and nothing else. 

@sull1102, no one can "force" Barnes to sell, but a private club can probably choose not to sell him a membership. As the chairman, i am willing to bet he never paid for one and thus may not be entitled to one!


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## thetrailboss (Aug 17, 2018)

https://vtdigger.org/2018/08/13/hermitage-clubs-uncertain-future-reverberates-deerfield-valley/

https://www.reformer.com/stories/progress-on-hermitage-property-receiver-says,547398


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## ss20 (Aug 17, 2018)

This opening line from the first article had me rolling... 



> From regular paychecks to real estate values, a great deal of the Deerfield Valley’s economy is riding on the future of The Hermitage Club, and whether the four-season private resort can get back on its feet in time for ski season.



There's a small mountain down the street that the community can rely upon...a little hill called Mount Snow.  Yes the Hermitage is important to the valley but Wilmington and Dover lived without it...back in the 00s and early 10s...during the economic recession and when skier visits at Mt. Snow plummet ted.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2018)

ss20 said:


> This opening line from the first article had me rolling...
> 
> 
> 
> There's a small mountain down the street that the community can rely upon...a little hill called Mount Snow.  Yes the Hermitage is important to the valley but Wilmington and Dover lived without it...back in the 00s and early 10s...during the economic recession and when skier visits at Mt. Snow plummet ted.



I thought it was weird


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## ss20 (Aug 18, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I thought it was weird
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



From a municipality/tax revenue standpoint this is HUGE for the town...but the average small business or the West Dover 7-11?...business as usual with or without the Hermitage.


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## drjeff (Aug 18, 2018)

ss20 said:


> From a municipality/tax revenue standpoint this is HUGE for the town...but the average small business or the West Dover 7-11?...business as usual with or without the Hermitage.



Yes and no.

As a second home owner in the valley for the last 11 plus years now, from when Haystack was still in it's post ASC shuttered days, to the first (failed) pre Jim Barnes attempt to turn it into a private club by the developer (his name slips my mind at the moment) who put up the successful Greenspring and Kingswood town home developments, to the Jim Barnes era rise and now fall of the Hermitage Club. The effects of the 2008 financial crash, the devastating effects of Irene in the area in 2011, etc, etc, while the total number of people that the Hermitage club has brought into the area (that weren't already there for that "little resort up the street" ;-) ) isn't massive, the economic impact on many small businesses that they have brought to the area, has been significant for sure. Places like Snow's Mountain Market, The Last Chair, High Country Marine and Snowmobile Tours, First Trax Sports Shop, West Dover Joes, Ratu's Market, Sticky Fingers Bakery, Matterhorn Lifestyles, the Bennington Furniture Store on 100, The Cask and Kiln, etc, etc, etc. Many small businesses in the area, have, and will continue to greatly benefit, on a year round basis from the relatively small number of new to the area people that the Hermitage has brought in. And yes, even 7-11, and it's VT Liquor store side, certainly has had some benefit as well.

In no way am I saying that it's been all upside, it hasn't. Even recently the closing of the relatively long time opersting Mapleleaf Brewery at the light in Wilmington (although it hasn't been an actual brewery since I believe pre Irene) show that a number of new to the area wealthy people buying property and frequenting the area is enough to keep any small business open, however the Hermitage, and it's timing especially in the big picture post Irene recovery of the Valley, has been a significant boost to the region, and one that without, I wonder what the storefronts in Wilmington and up along 100 into Dover/West Dover would look like today, if it didn't happen. This is also why I passionately hope that a way will be found to get it back and operating, as many personal friends of mine, are small business owners up in the area, who are doing well, who likely wouldn't be where they are today without the secondary effects of local area spending that members associated with the Hermitage Club have brought


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## icecoast1 (Aug 18, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> As a second home owner in the valley for the last 11 plus years now, from when Haystack was still in it's post ASC shuttered days, to the first (failed) pre Jim Barnes attempt to turn it into a private club by the developer (his name slips my mind at the moment) who put up the successful Greenspring and Kingswood town home developments, to the Jim Barnes era rise and now fall of the Hermitage Club. The effects of the 2008 financial crash, the devastating effects of Irene in the area in 2011, etc, etc, while the total number of people that the Hermitage club has brought into the area (that weren't already there for that "little resort up the street" ;-) ) isn't massive, the economic impact on many small businesses that they have brought to the area, has been significant for sure. Places like Snow's Mountain Market, The Last Chair, High Country Marine and Snowmobile Tours, First Trax Sports Shop, West Dover Joes, Ratu's Market, Sticky Fingers Bakery, Matterhorn Lifestyles, the Bennington Furniture Store on 100, The Cask and Kiln, etc, etc, etc. Many small businesses in the area, have, and will continue to greatly benefit, on a year round basis from the relatively small number of new to the area people that the Hermitage has brought in. And yes, even 7-11, and it's VT Liquor store side, certainly has had some benefit as well.
> 
> In no way am I saying that it's been all upside, it hasn't. Even recently the closing of the relatively long time opersting Mapleleaf Brewery at the light in Wilmington (although it hasn't been an actual brewery since I believe pre Irene) show that a number of new to the area wealthy people buying property and frequenting the area is enough to keep any small business open, however the Hermitage, and it's timing especially in the big picture post Irene recovery of the Valley, has been a significant boost to the region, and one that without, I wonder what the storefronts in Wilmington and up along 100 into Dover/West Dover would look like today, if it didn't happen. This is also why I passionately hope that a way will be found to get it back and operating, as many personal friends of mine, are small business owners up in the area, who are doing well, who likely wouldn't be where they are today without the secondary effects of local area spending that members associated with the Hermitage Club have brought




What about all the local businesses that to this day haven't been paid for work done at the club?  What about employees that didnt get paid on time?   I'm sure there are businesses that have seen upticks in business but when you have an owner that doesn't regularly pay his  bills and misses payroll that place is not good for the local community overall.   I do think the club being open and run by somebody other than Jim Barnes could be good for the area but the right person needs to be at the top


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## drjeff (Aug 19, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> What about all the local businesses that to this day haven't been paid for work done at the club?  What about employees that didnt get paid on time?   I'm sure there are businesses that have seen upticks in business but when you have an owner that doesn't regularly pay his  bills and misses payroll that place is not good for the local community overall.   I do think the club being open and run by somebody other than Jim Barnes could be good for the area but the right person needs to be at the top


No doubt, the way that Jim Barnes and the Hermitage has failed to pay many local residents and businesses hasn't been a good thing. 

That issue though is separate from the positive economic side that many members have brought to the valley in their spending. That side of the Hermitage's saga has been a plus to the region

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## Glenn (Aug 20, 2018)

A former neighbor of ours in CT did some painting work for the Hermitage a few years back. I was surprised they had out of the area contractors doing work there.


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## skiur (Aug 20, 2018)

Glenn said:


> A former neighbor of ours in CT did some painting work for the Hermitage a few years back. I was surprised they had out of the area contractors doing work there.



Did they get paid?


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## drjeff (Aug 20, 2018)

Glenn said:


> A former neighbor of ours in CT did some painting work for the Hermitage a few years back. I was surprised they had out of the area contractors doing work there.



Some of it might of been simply lack of available contractors to do all of the work that was going on in the Valley a few years ago. 

Case in point, when we were looking to redo the bathrooms in our condo a few years ago, right when the Hermitage was really getting going, we barely could find a contractor in the Windham/Bennington county areas who would return our calls, and the one's that did often told us that they were so busy since the Hermitage had most of the area contractors essentially "locked up" in a stream of on going work that they often told us they anticipated would be 3 to 4 years long. One contractor even told us, that he wasn't even looking at new jobs under 50k at that time.

We ended up bringing a contractor up from our neck of the woods in CT to do all of our work, less the state mandated VT license only, electrical and plumbing. 

Could of been the reputation of the club causing the outsourcing of painting to CT contractors then, could of just been the lack of contractors to simultaneously work on all of the projects they had going a few years ago as well????


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## sull1102 (Aug 20, 2018)

I know from friends that are contractors in the valley that they intentionally started avoiding work with Barnes and the Club back in very early 2017 because they already were not being paid the previous fall. It was around that time that WW realized they weren't going to be paid anytime soon and shut off the Club's line of credit (that was an awkward encounter having no clue and being a regular employee walking in to pick something up I gotta tell ya). Also around Sneaux things started picking up and the same could be said all over Wilmington and Dover. Idk how much of a role the Club played in it, but there is still a ton of ongoing new home construction and honestly it seems like no one has missed a beat until you drive down Handle Rd or go by the golf course and realize there are no pins out and no players.

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## Glenn (Aug 21, 2018)

Not sure if our neighbor was paid. I'm going to guess yes as all of this took place a few years back and he was working in CT for some before all this stuff went down up there. 

Jeff,
We can't find a plumber in the Bratt area. No one returns calls. We had a father and son come out for an estimate...then radio silence. Our neighbor is contractor up there. He said finding plumbers is next to impossible.


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## drjeff (Sep 9, 2018)

And the "patient" has a pulse!

[FONT=&quot]"Members OK deal to bring back ski resort[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The Hermitage Club at Haystack Mountain. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]KRISTOPHER RADDER - BRATTLEBORO REFORMER [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Posted Thursday, September 6, 2018 7:54 pm [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By Chris Mays, Brattleboro Reformer[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]DEERFIELD VALLEY — Hermitage Club members voted 209-165 to pay a higher annual due and move forward with a deal that would bring a private ski resort back to life again this winter. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Overall, I am pleased with the results, as the majority voted in favor of the plan," Harper Sibley, company president, wrote Wednesday in an email to members. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Out of 525 members, 151 did not vote, according to results shared in his email. And one member said financial projections indicated that more than 400 members would need to pay their dues in order for the project to work and they would collectively need to spend $4 million during the season. Dues would go from $9,500 last year to $15,000 this year. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Hermitage officials have been trying to put together a "restructuring" package after its private ski resort at Haystack Mountain, a golf course, four inns and several townhouses were foreclosed on by mortgage holder Berkshire Bank in February. Hermitage properties also were closed down by the Vermont Department of Taxes the following month for failure to make tax payments. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Oz Real Estate of New York City is expected to commit more than $50 million to company "restructuring," and a board of directors will be created with two board members appointed by Oz, two appointed by Hermitage founder Jim Barnes and four appointed by club members, according to the club member. Barnes would no longer own the majority of the company under the plan; Oz would own 30 percent, members would own about 41 percent, Barnes would own 27 percent, and vendors and contractors could convert debt to about 1 percent. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sibley called the members' feedback "very helpful" as his team reviews its next steps with lenders, advisers and representatives from Oz. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"We will continue to work with this information over the next several days as we formulate a final plan for membership review," he wrote. "To set expectations, please understand that these meetings are comprehensive and do take time and we would project to have more information for the membership to review by Monday." [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sibley said members were asked whether they support the restructuring via a non-binding straw poll, which had been done electronically over the long weekend. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Even more importantly, 85 percent or $78.7 million of the investment capital voted in favor of the conversion," wrote Sibley, referring to three groups previously created for Hermitage investments. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]His email says that members of the $100,000 Club who invested $100,000 at a clip for a combined $23 million said yes to the plan and another set who contributed $8.5 million collectively said no. The group who helped purchase the Barnstormer chairlift, whose members invested a combined $2.1 million, supported the plan. Investors who provided a total of $3.9 million did not. The group who bought secondary memberships in the form of a five-year loan had members who invested a combined $3.1 million in support, and members who invested a total of $2.3 million did not. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The club member said support from about 80 percent of each group of investors would be needed to move forward according to financial projections provided by the company, and that did not appear to happen. The idea, the member added, is to replace large amounts of debt with equity or ownership in the company. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The voting results show Barnes' debt to be about $54 million. Overall investment in debt conversion is said to be about $78.7 million with him and $28.6 million without him. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sibley did not respond to an email for comment by press time. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There is a hearing scheduled for Oct. 25 in Windham Superior Court, Civil Division to discuss reports submitted by the receiver appointed by the court to preserve properties under the Berkshire Bank foreclosure. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Reach staff writer Chris Mays at cmays@reformer.com, at [/FONT]@CMaysBR[FONT=&quot] on Twitter and 802-254-2311, ext. 273."[/FONT]


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## sull1102 (Sep 10, 2018)

While I think they'll be able to hire enough employees to get things running, management is going to almost have to sell themselves during job interviews with anyone worth two pennies to get some half decent people working there this winter. I am glad to see the place likely reopening, would be sad to drive by the place all winter completely shut down. They really need to get out there soon though and start mowing etc.

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## jaytrem (Sep 10, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Out of 525 members, 151 did not vote, according to results shared in his email. And one member said financial projections indicated that more than 400 members would need to pay their dues in order for the project to work and they would collectively need to spend $4 million during the season. Dues would go from $9,500 last year to $15,000 this year.



That's quite a jump from the original $5000-ish dues.  Definitely going to be more exclusive if it happens.  At that price I don't think it's really a wise choice for the $200K-ish earners they initially targeted.  I wonder how many of the 151 are just walking away at this point.


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## slatham (Sep 10, 2018)

jaytrem said:


> That's quite a jump from the original $5000-ish dues.  Definitely going to be more exclusive if it happens.  At that price I don't think it's really a wise choice for the $200K-ish earners they initially targeted.  I wonder how many of the 151 are just walking away at this point.



Depends on whether is a permanent increase to $15k or a one year deal - like an assessment- to raise money for the deal? In any event I hope it works and they can open this winter. Whether you like it or not, it's better for all of us that it be open.


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## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2018)

Not sure where it is actually goes from here because "The club  member said support from about 80 percent of each group of investors  would be needed to move forward according to financial projections  provided by the company, and that did not appear to happen".


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## heiusa (Sep 10, 2018)

I spoke to a member Saturday and he said that they did not get enough members to commit to spending the money to open this season.   They need 400 members and only 200 committed.

He thinks the place will be sold for pennies on the dollar and that they are looking for an angel investor to save the place.


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## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2018)

heiusa said:


> I spoke to a member Saturday and he said that they did not get enough members to commit to spending the money to open this season.   They need 400 members and only 200 committed.
> 
> He thinks the place will be sold for pennies on the dollar and that they are looking for an angel investor to save the place.




The other 200 didn't want to throw good money after bad...


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## drjeff (Sep 10, 2018)

slatham said:


> Depends on whether is a permanent increase to $15k or a one year deal - like an assessment- to raise money for the deal? In any event I hope it works and they can open this winter. Whether you like it or not, it's better for all of us that it be open.


The $15k annual dues number is one that I heard multiple members talk about the last couple of season's as to what a REALISTIC dues standpoint for what they were getting should be

The reality is as well that many members of the Hermitage Club are also paying annual dues, probably at or above that 15k number to a country club or yacht club (or maybe even both) as well

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## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2018)

drjeff said:


> The $15k annual dues number is one that I heard multiple members talk about the last couple of season's as to what a REALISTIC dues standpoint for what they were getting should be
> 
> The reality is as well that many members of the Hermitage Club are also paying annual dues, probably at or above that 15k number to a country club or yacht club (or maybe even both) as well
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



Seem only half are willing to pay the 15k


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## cdskier (Sep 10, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Seem only half are willing to pay the 15k



Even less than that. They have 525 members and need 400 of those to commit (76% of overall members). At this point, only 209 voted in favor...that's slightly under 40%.

This article almost seems to contradict itself. It tries to put a positive spin on a vote that doesn't get you near what you need. I'm not seeing any clear next step in the article based on that voting result.

Interesting spin for the president to say "the majority voted in favor of the plan" when in reality over 60% either were against it or didn't vote. Anyone have any insight into why so many members (~30%) didn't vote at all?


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## drjeff (Sep 11, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Even less than that. They have 525 members and need 400 of those to commit (76% of overall members). At this point, only 209 voted in favor...that's slightly under 40%.
> 
> This article almost seems to contradict itself. It tries to put a positive spin on a vote that doesn't get you near what you need. I'm not seeing any clear next step in the article based on that voting result.
> 
> Interesting spin for the president to say "the majority voted in favor of the plan" when in reality over 60% either were against it or didn't vote. Anyone have any insight into why so many members (~30%) didn't vote at all?



From what a member friend of mine, who i was tailgating with at the Patriots game on Sunday said, he felt that the speed at which this all came together (as he put it, it was less than a week from when he received the e-mail explaining things and when he had to respond with his vote) combined with what I'm sure is some added skepticism and wanting to do some thorough due diligence before voting, likely effected the total vote totals.

The reality is that the hard deadline for which they need to get pre ski season mountain prep aggressively going is rapidly approaching, especially when you factor in the legal proceedings that also need to be sorted out, so speed of getting a response from the members is of the essence


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## sull1102 (Sep 11, 2018)

Alright I am a little confused now. The article from the Reformer on pg61 says the members voted yes and that things are moving forward. The reality is that the majority either voted no or did not vote at all, likely due to ridiculously short notice of said vote. So where do we stand on 9/11/18 with the club less than three months away from when skiing operations usually begin? It sounds like the members that they currently have are not very willing to give that $15K. Can you imagine getting that email? Even Warren would be a little hesitant to just give the money away after the crap that went on last year from beginning to end.


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## HowieT2 (Sep 12, 2018)

15k/year seems low.  is that per person? per family?  does that include property taxes?


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## Smellytele (Sep 12, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> 15k/year seems low.  is that per person? per family?  does that include property taxes?



It was only 9k so an increase of 66% is a large increase not knowing if this was only a bandaid that really isn't fixing the issues. I would assume it does not include property taxes and it is per household.


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## jaytrem (Sep 12, 2018)

HowieT2 said:


> 15k/year seems low.  is that per person? per family?  does that include property taxes?



If that's the standard membership you get 1 season pass and I think something like 80-100 lift tickets for your family and friends (I forget the exact number).  Also you get greens fees I think for your family, assuming the golf course opens.  Has nothing to do with property taxes.  Everyone I know in the club already had a place before they joined, so don't know all that much about the properties the Hermitage build/sold.


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## sull1102 (Sep 12, 2018)

Property the Hermitage built/sold came with a year of membership and a discount for future years, but there were all kinds of games being played to make deals happen etc. "Would you be interested in buying if we include multiple years or an extra family membership for a friend?" I heard of that one first hand... The $15K is for the whole family unit to join for a year with lift tickets, unlimited golfing, a locker, gym, and lap pool at the Clubhouse, and comes with a boat load of lift tickets for friends and family. For $15,000 dare I say it's not a bad deal at all. You gotta figure a family of four is paying $2,000 for season passes to Mount Snow, a little more if the kids are a little older. Country Club membership is not cheap either, a decent club your easily in the thousands. Factor in the silly levels of exclusivity for the whole place and how much value is placed on that and the whole playground for rich vibe going. Suddenly it isn't that crazy.

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## drjeff (Sep 12, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Property the Hermitage built/sold came with a year of membership and a discount for future years, but there were all kinds of games being played to make deals happen etc. "Would you be interested in buying if we include multiple years or an extra family membership for a friend?" I heard of that one first hand... The $15K is for the whole family unit to join for a year with lift tickets, unlimited golfing, a locker, gym, and lap pool at the Clubhouse, and comes with a boat load of lift tickets for friends and family. For $15,000 dare I say it's not a bad deal at all. You gotta figure a family of four is paying $2,000 for season passes to Mount Snow, a little more if the kids are a little older. Country Club membership is not cheap either, a decent club your easily in the thousands. Factor in the silly levels of exclusivity for the whole place and how much value is placed on that and the whole playground for rich vibe going. Suddenly it isn't that crazy.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



As I have heard many of my member friends say multiple times over the years, they felt that what they got for what their annual dues were was a bargain. And as I posted before, many of them felt that the "realistic" annual dues should of been in that 15k range.

While not a small number for many to grasp, when you take a look at the amenities offered and the value that the time with one's family in a less crowded environment as the club sells itself on, it becomes a very reasonable price point for their target demographic, even if it seems absurd to others


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## jaytrem (Sep 12, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Property the Hermitage built/sold came with a year of membership and a discount for future years, but there were all kinds of games being played to make deals happen etc. "Would you be interested in buying if we include multiple years or an extra family membership for a friend?" I heard of that one first hand...



Yup. Seems like lots of people negotiated stuff, then the word got out that you could negotiate and now everybody's membership is different.  One guy I know got a group together and was able to get them all a lower price on the initiation fee.  Must be a bear to keep track of.  Streamlining to everyone paying $15,000 for say a family of 5 and X number extra tix would probably be a good idea.  Not sure how that would all work with existing contracts if it's still technically the same company.  Big giant mess!!!  I just hope the ski area somehow survives one way or the other.


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## Smellytele (Sep 12, 2018)

drjeff said:


> As I have heard many of my member friends say multiple times over the years, they felt that what they got for what their annual dues were was a bargain. And as I posted before, many of them felt that the "realistic" annual dues should of been in that 15k range.
> 
> While not a small number for many to grasp, when you take a look at the amenities offered and the value that the time with one's family in a less crowded environment as the club sells itself on, it becomes a very reasonable price point for their target demographic, even if it seems absurd to others



Obviously though a lot don't want to pay the 15k


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## mbedle (Sep 12, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Obviously though a lot don't want to pay the 15k



I would guess that its wasn't just about the 15K, but also about the plan they were proposing to keep the club viable.


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## sull1102 (Sep 12, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Obviously though a lot don't want to pay the 15k



Then it is time for them to see themselves out obviously. When push comes to shove and those people on the fence decide not to renew their membership they can come on down to Sneaux. I have a funny feeling anyone that can maybe kinda sorta afford the $15k will very quickly regret leaving the Club when they have to drive down to the lower lots and ride the magic carpet back up then wait in 10-15 minute lift lines all day for runs that they will consider INCREDIBLY crowded. It will come down to how comfortable people have gotten with the ski on ski off heated 6 pack with no one one the slopes, corduroy at 3PM on Saturdays, untracked powder five days after a storm and even longer in the woods. 

If you are a member there now, with a handful of exceptions, then you can swing the $15k if you want to continue there.


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## drjeff (Sep 12, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Then it is time for them to see themselves out obviously. When push comes to shove and those people on the fence decide not to renew their membership they can come on down to Sneaux. I have a funny feeling anyone that can maybe kinda sorta afford the $15k will very quickly regret leaving the Club when they have to drive down to the lower lots and ride the magic carpet back up then wait in 10-15 minute lift lines all day for runs that they will consider INCREDIBLY crowded. It will come down to how comfortable people have gotten with the ski on ski off heated 6 pack with no one one the slopes, corduroy at 3PM on Saturdays, untracked powder five days after a storm and even longer in the woods.
> 
> If you are a member there now, with a handful of exceptions, then you can swing the $15k if you want to continue there.



The other factor too about if members would want to go back to Mount Snow or not, is many of them, before the Hermitage, were members of the Mount Snow Ski Club (it's the building next to where the Moover pick up/drop off area is in the main base area. The ski club, for members, offers a less crowded lodge, with a kitchen and grill that members can use whenever they want, as well as a limited number of lockers. It is a nice alternative over the chaos that the main base lodge, the Sundance Base lodge, and the old Carinthia Lodge was (who knows how the new Carinthia Lodge will actually be chaos wise this season???) The Mount Snow Ski Club is a maximum member capacity, with a sizable waiting list currently, so that wouldn't be an option for Hermitage "refugees" should they choose not to continue their membership....


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## triguy914 (Sep 23, 2018)

this is chapter 2 of the beginning of the end. Look for an outright foreclosure, or some of the hedge/PE owners to come up with their own plan to buy the place after the banks and anyone with a hand on the assets gets desperate. The smart money wouldn't be there this early and not with Barnes. That said, It's surprising that OzCap would even consider it with Barnes, so he must have something that keeps him an owner regardless. 
The real issue as pointed out isn't for the members, but for those that Ski Mt Snow. How much more crowded will it be with these folks coming back over? Even if they had a plan and approval today. Opening up in 90 days is unlikely. A proper shut down and clean up of the facilities didn't happen in the spring. No summer cleanup/ maintenance was done. It's a lot more than what normally goes into opening a place, particularly to the standards these members demand.


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## sull1102 (Sep 23, 2018)

triguy914 said:


> this is chapter 2 of the beginning of the end. Look for an outright foreclosure, or some of the hedge/PE owners to come up with their own plan to buy the place after the banks and anyone with a hand on the assets gets desperate. The smart money wouldn't be there this early and not with Barnes. That said, It's surprising that OzCap would even consider it with Barnes, so he must have something that keeps him an owner regardless.
> The real issue as pointed out isn't for the members, but for those that Ski Mt Snow. How much more crowded will it be with these folks coming back over? Even if they had a plan and approval today. Opening up in 90 days is unlikely. A proper shut down and clean up of the facilities didn't happen in the spring. No summer cleanup/ maintenance was done. It's a lot more than what normally goes into opening a place, particularly to the standards these members demand.


Not totally true about off-season work, but yes they need to get going pretty soon here if they plan to open. Don't forget they were not an early player and usually got going after Thanksgiving and into December. If work began tomorrow you could safely say they could open in 9-10 weeks.  There has been maintenance and security on the grounds this summer. They were mostly over at the golf course keeping it mowed and just general upkeep. They did pull down the Hermitage Club Golf Club signs, they now read Haystack! 

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## icecoast1 (Sep 23, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Not totally true about off-season work, but yes they need to get going pretty soon here if they plan to open. Don't forget they were not an early player and usually got going after Thanksgiving and into December. If work began tomorrow you could safely say they could open in 9-10 weeks.  There has been maintenance and security on the grounds this summer. They were mostly over at the golf course keeping it mowed and just general upkeep. They did pull down the Hermitage Club Golf Club signs, they now read Haystack!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



They haven't done any maintenance on the chairlifts which as they continue to sit require more and more work and also requires certified lift mechanics which they currently dont have.   The reciever has been keeping the place ok to sell but has not been getting it ready to operate this winter. Getting the place ready isnt quite as easy as you're making it out to be.  They also missed a deadline for getting h2b workers for the winter which takes me back to a question earlier in this thread, who do they expect to work at this place even if they pull off this miracle?  Places that dont have the track record Hermitage does have enough problems finding help


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## sull1102 (Sep 23, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> They haven't done any maintenance on the chairlifts which as they continue to sit require more and more work and also requires certified lift mechanics which they currently dont have.   The reciever has been keeping the place ok to sell but has not been getting it ready to operate this winter. Getting the place ready isnt quite as easy as you're making it out to be.  They also missed a deadline for getting h2b workers for the winter which takes me back to a question earlier in this thread, who do they expect to work at this place even if they pull off this miracle?  Places that dont have the track record Hermitage does have enough problems finding help


Hermitage Club working on $30 million loan for reopening this season
https://vtdigger.org/2018/09/20/hermitage-club-working-30-million-loan-reopening-season/

Well then... Interesting seeing as the place minus the stunning Clubhouse is not worth $30 million and will take years, likely decades, to make a $30 million profit.

The lifts have sat since April, not exactly the worst thing in the world. And lest we forget the 6 pack carriers are sitting protected in a barn at the base. They need 1 lift spinning, which has all of 3 seasons, to operate at 70% capacity. Otherwise, plop a guy in a mower give him 40 hours a week for two weeks and the mountain will look like a regular preseason.  

As for employees, pay people a liveable wage and you'll get employees. Other mountains, even my favorite in the Deerfield Valley, LOVE to cry and whine about how tough it is to find good employees. I'm so sick of hearing that crap. Ask them how much they wanna pay these employees and you'll see why. They want to pay these people maybe a buck above minimum wage at a whopping $11.00 an hour half the time. It's laughable. Oh and they sure as hell don't want to give you 40 hours a week in the winter with vacation weeks being the exception, year round employment, a summer job to pair with the winter work, or any benefits at all beyond a season pass. If they tried paying people oh idk $15 an hour and be competitive with the local Walmarts they'd be shocked at the line forming to get a job. 

If the Hermitage keeps the staff very small, but pays the adequately, they will have a very good team working for them. The locals around here need the work.

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## Glenn (Oct 25, 2018)

Funding may be on the horizon:  https://www.reformer.com/stories/closing-on-loan-imminent,554182


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## Glenn (Oct 26, 2018)

Judge to make call on lift maintenance at Hermitage Club

https://www.reformer.com/stories/judge-to-make-call-on-lift-maintenance-at-hermitage-club,554339


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## sull1102 (Oct 26, 2018)

The lack of professionalism in the part of pretty much everyone involved really comes across in that article. Sounds like the bank was beyond ambitions thinking they could wrap this up before winter and is now a little prickly about everything, rightfully so. Even if the lifts are running, what about snowmaking? 

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## icecoast1 (Oct 26, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> The lack of professionalism in the part of pretty much everyone involved really comes across in that article. Sounds like the bank was beyond ambitions thinking they could wrap this up before winter and is now a little prickly about everything, rightfully so. Even if the lifts are running, what about snowmaking?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Theyd have better luck with the snowmaking than they will with the lifts.  Sitting idle all summer with no work done to them is the worst thing for them.  Getting them going is going to be a costly and extensive endeavor.  Not to mention not just anybody can work on them, you need certified lift mechanics, not just whatever person wants to pretend to be one.   It's getting down to the point of them not even being open at all this winter.  I'd be shocked if they even get barnstormer and a main run off the summit open, even that would be a miracle at this point.


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## sull1102 (Oct 26, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> Theyd have better luck with the snowmaking than they will with the lifts.  Sitting idle all summer with no work done to them is the worst thing for them.  Getting them going is going to be a costly and extensive endeavor.  Not to mention not just anybody can work on them, you need certified lift mechanics, not just whatever person wants to pretend to be one.   It's getting down to the point of them not even being open at all this winter.  I'd be shocked if they even get barnstormer and a main run off the summit open, even that would be a miracle at this point.


Well I'm wondering if Techno-Alpin pulled most of their equipment that was on lease off the mountain or disabled it in some way.

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## drjeff (Oct 26, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Well I'm wondering if Techno-Alpin pulled most of their equipment that was on lease off the mountain or disabled it in some way.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Lots of snazzy looking yellow fan guns still there when I last drove through their access road and up to the clubhouse a few weeks ago. And with a fair number of their Techno Alpin fans tower mounted up on the hill, their removal isn't an easy, quick process by any means. If anything, the HKD towers they also installed would be much easier to remove as relatively quickly they can be detached from their mounts and moved


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## tumbler (Oct 26, 2018)

IN order to make snow they will need to pay a big power bill- $$$$

Could see it being cat skiing only for the winter.


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## njdiver85 (Oct 30, 2018)

From today: 

"Judge Denies Hermitage Request for Lift Inspections"

"In a decision issued late last week, Judge Robert Gerety denied Hermitage's request to increase off season maintenance in order to reopen the private ski area. Among the requests included facilitating the annual lift inspections and increasing snowmaking maintenance.

The receiver is currently funded "to preserve the equipment from deterioration," putting the 2018-19 ski season in jeopardy."


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## sull1102 (Oct 30, 2018)

njdiver85 said:


> From today:
> 
> "Judge Denies Hermitage Request for Lift Inspections"
> 
> ...


Well, that's that. They're gonna need to get that $30-MILLION (how will they ever ever ever pay that back) loan done ASAP. If you miss even one season it's not going to be good AND how long can that detach six sit around before someone makes an offer and moves it a mile up the road

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## icecoast1 (Oct 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Well, that's that. They're gonna need to get that $30-MILLION (how will they ever ever ever pay that back) loan done ASAP. If you miss even one season it's not going to be good AND how long can that detach six sit around before someone makes an offer and moves it a mile up the road
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



One of the previous articles mentioned OZ being made the majority owner if this deal went through, which could explain how they expect to make the money back.  If it's a straight up loan to Barnes, theres no chance of them ever seeing the money back 

I'd be shocked to ever see that lift at Mount Snow.  It's the wrong brand and Peak Resorts is pretty brand loyal.  Would have been a nice fit at Stratton though.


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## drjeff (Oct 30, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> One of the previous articles mentioned OZ being made the majority owner if this deal went through, which could explain how they expect to make the money back.  If it's a straight up loan to Barnes, theres no chance of them ever seeing the money back
> 
> I'd be shocked to ever see that lift at Mount Snow.  It's the wrong brand and Peak Resorts is pretty brand loyal.  Would have been a nice fit at Stratton though.


Unless of course Peak bought it, and shipped it to one of it's North Conway area resorts. All of their highspeeds are Dopp's....  

Not that I think that would happen anytime soon, if it all. I still think that in some form or another the Hermitage will find a financing source

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## sull1102 (Oct 30, 2018)

Oh I don't actually think the Barnstormer will end up at Snow, I just really really really wish it would. It woul totally upstage the Bluebird it's just a nicer lift overall and more luxury. I could see one of the Skytrac quads  or one of the Poma Triples going to Snow though. Stratton would be the absolute perfect fit for the Barnstormer to go in where Amex but likely ends up far away somewhere.

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## drjeff (Oct 30, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Oh I don't actually think the Barnstormer will end up at Snow, I just really really really wish it would. It woul totally upstage the Bluebird it's just a nicer lift overall and more luxury. I could see one of the Skytrac quads  or one of the Poma Triples going to Snow though. Stratton would be the absolute perfect fit for the Barnstormer to go in where Amex but likely ends up far away somewhere.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Having ridden both Barnstomer as well as the Orange Bubble Dopp at The Canyons/Park City Resort, and the Leitner/Poma bubbles at Mount Snow and Okemo, as a taller guy, I like L/P's bubbles better than Dopp's bubbles as the Dopp bubble seem to be closer to both my face and also the top of my helmet than the L/P bubbles to me. Just my personal opinion

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## thetrailboss (Oct 30, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Having ridden both Barnstomer as well as the Orange Bubble Dopp at The Canyons/Park City Resort, and the Leitner/Poma bubbles at Mount Snow and Okemo, as a taller guy, I like L/P's bubbles better than Dopp's bubbles as the Dopp bubble seem to be closer to both my face and also the top of my helmet than the L/P bubbles to me. Just my personal opinion
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



I blame the bubble shape for Hermitage’s troubles. [emoji38]


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## tnt1234 (Oct 30, 2018)

snow should just buy hermitage already.  or peaks i guess.


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## sull1102 (Oct 30, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Having ridden both Barnstomer as well as the Orange Bubble Dopp at The Canyons/Park City Resort, and the Leitner/Poma bubbles at Mount Snow and Okemo, as a taller guy, I like L/P's bubbles better than Dopp's bubbles as the Dopp bubble seem to be closer to both my face and also the top of my helmet than the L/P bubbles to me. Just my personal opinion
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


I did always feel like the Dopp bubble was tighter, I'm a good bit over 6ft and felt the bottom of the bubble was kinda of leaving no room between that and the bench seat causing me to hit my shins. BUT the overall feel, heated seats, and ride quality are a little better on the Barnstormer. Although nothing compares to six pack at Laax with the Porsche Design carriers with heated race seats by BVG.

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## skiur (Oct 31, 2018)

tnt1234 said:


> snow should just buy hermitage already.  or peaks i guess.



It didn't work 20 years ago for ASC, what mAkes you think it would work for peaks today?


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## WWF-VT (Oct 31, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I blame the bubble shape for Hermitage’s troubles. [emoji38]



It's not the bubble shape, but the stupidity of installing a six pack lift


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## sull1102 (Oct 31, 2018)

skiur said:


> It didn't work 20 years ago for ASC, what mAkes you think it would work for peaks today?


Different time, different owners with different strategy, Haystack was in a much different situation than Hermitage is now with all the new infrastructure already in place. The place is about as turnkey as it comes now.

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## machski (Oct 31, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Different time, different owners with different strategy, Haystack was in a much different situation than Hermitage is now with all the new infrastructure already in place. The place is about as turnkey as it comes now.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Yet still could never get through Act 250 to be interconnected today.  So I doubt Peaks has any interest at all.

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## thetrailboss (Oct 31, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> It's not the bubble shape, but the stupidity of installing a six pack lift



Yeah, that too....


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## drjeff (Oct 31, 2018)

machski said:


> Yet still could never get through Act 250 to be interconnected today.  So I doubt Peaks has any interest at all.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


Bingo!!! 

The reality is that Peak could likely spend in legal fees what they did, if not more than the cost to build the West Lake snowmaking project/upgrade plus the new Carinthia Lodge to buy The Hermitage and attempt to go through the permitting process to connect it with Mount Snow, and never be able to do so in today's permitting world in VT!! It's not going to happen!!

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## sull1102 (Oct 31, 2018)

Best bet in my opinion is a new group comes in and buys the real estate, ski area, golf course, and the Inn at a bargain price and debt free in a year or two. If they clean house, hell bring back the Haystack Mountain name if they can find a way, then they have a chance. Snow will continue to grow and likely get more and more popular and lift lines will grow. Haystack would benefit and then really focus in the golf operation. I mean spend more marketing there than on skikng, maybe upgrade the Clubhouse, do anything you can to beat Snow in that department because it is one place they most certainly can do such. 

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## thetrailboss (Nov 1, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Bingo!!!
> 
> The reality is that Peak could likely spend in legal fees what they did, if not more than the cost to build the West Lake snowmaking project/upgrade plus the new Carinthia Lodge to buy The Hermitage and attempt to go through the permitting process to connect it with Mount Snow, and never be able to do so in today's permitting world in VT!! It's not going to happen!!
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



Sad. In many ways, an interconnect TOTALLY makes sense.


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## sull1102 (Nov 1, 2018)

Agreed! It would've made Snow into a true Killington and Northern Vermont competitor with that much terrain. What a mountain that could have been!





thetrailboss said:


> Sad. In many ways, an interconnect TOTALLY makes sense.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



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## machski (Nov 1, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Best bet in my opinion is a new group comes in and buys the real estate, ski area, golf course, and the Inn at a bargain price and debt free in a year or two. If they clean house, hell bring back the Haystack Mountain name if they can find a way, then they have a chance. Snow will continue to grow and likely get more and more popular and lift lines will grow. Haystack would benefit and then really focus in the golf operation. I mean spend more marketing there than on skikng, maybe upgrade the Clubhouse, do anything you can to beat Snow in that department because it is one place they most certainly can do such.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Never going to happen.  Too much is held privately by members.  I can just about assure you they are not going to walk away with pennies on the dollar.  This will not go back to a open to the public ski area anytime soon.

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## cdskier (Nov 1, 2018)

machski said:


> Never going to happen.  Too much is held privately by members.  I can just about assure you they are not going to walk away with pennies on the dollar.  This will not go back to a open to the public ski area anytime soon.



Aren't there restrictions in the deed that prevent the resort from being public again as well? Or am I thinking of the wrong mountain?


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## icecoast1 (Nov 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Aren't there restrictions in the deed that prevent the resort from being public again as well? Or am I thinking of the wrong mountain?



Yeah that's been in place since the ASC days


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## drjeff (Nov 2, 2018)

When one looks at the property maps of the land along the ridge line between the Sunbrook region of Mount Snow and the Northern extent of the trails of the Hermitage Club and sees the multiple number of properties that would be involved to make an interconnect happen and the mix of ownership of those properties between private individuals and also the US Forest service, that alone makes for a challenging situation, and that doesn't even get into the likely environmental studies and possible blocking lawsuits that could be filed should they (Peak/Mount Snow) be able to acquire the land, or rights to the land as well as acquire the Hermitage and it's ski area facilities (kind of doubt that Peak/Mount Snow would want to buy a 2nd 18 hole golf course when they already own and run one that's less than 2 miles as the bird fly's away from the Hermitage's golf course).

While on paper it seems like the concept of connecting the 2 makes a ton of sense, the behind the scenes logistics (and expenses) with making the attempt to complete it, make it very unlikely that it ever will happen


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## sull1102 (Nov 2, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Aren't there restrictions in the deed that prevent the resort from being public again as well? Or am I thinking of the wrong mountain?


You would have to work around this as it is still in place. The wording of it could become important because I've long wondered if you could somehow sell a $50 membership that includes a lift ticket.

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## sull1102 (Nov 2, 2018)

machski said:


> Never going to happen.  Too much is held privately by members.  I can just about assure you they are not going to walk away with pennies on the dollar.  This will not go back to a open to the public ski area anytime soon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


Not too much of the ski area itself and the golf course are held by members. They own a whole hell of a lot down around the base area, but not the base itself.

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## njdiver85 (Nov 2, 2018)

Two or three dedicated shuttle buses connecting the two resorts, with very short wait times, would be a lot cheaper and less finicky than a chair lift.


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## njdiver85 (Nov 2, 2018)

Article in local paper regarding lift maintenance issues at Hermitage noted this interesting bit of information that I was not aware of . . .

"Glynn noted that the newest lift, the Barnstormer, may not be included in the scope of the receiver’s work.  The lift was funded by a group of investors in the club.  “There’s a question about who has the first security interest in it, and it may not be the bank,” she said.  “Berkshire Bank should not be paying to maintain equipment that’s not our collateral.”


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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> You would have to work around this as it is still in place. The wording of it could become important because I've long wondered if you could somehow sell a $50 membership that includes a lift ticket.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Like going to a bar in SLC.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Nov 2, 2018)

I do remember hearing a long time ago (pre-carinthia) that if Mount Snow took control after the first failed private go-around (meadows i think it was called), they would of turned Haystack into the easts only strictly-park mountain. That being said I could not imagine that happening with the ski lodge that IMO belongs in Aspen.


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## sull1102 (Nov 2, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> I do remember hearing a long time ago (pre-carinthia) that if Mount Snow took control after the first failed private go-around (meadows i think it was called), they would of turned Haystack into the easts only strictly-park mountain. That being said I could not imagine that happening with the ski lodge that IMO belongs in Aspen.


Oh god that would be GLORIOUS! Ya know I have long thought that something was going to change pretty soon here with the new Carinthia base area. That new lodge is VERY impressive in person and the proposed condo development will bring in tons of families that I can see very easily complaining about being at the base of a terrain park only face despite the park being there before they even build the place. I know I've read somewhere online that the idea is to turn one trail or two back into a normal snowmaking trail with no park to allow access. However, I see AMAZING potential in having a park only entire mountain with a whole lot of tree skiing thrown in for good measure. Of course the Barnstormer is wicked overkill for that, but hey if it was still there why not. I have also read that that lift is under a different ownership structure than the mountain, back when the rumor was Dopp was not paid. They came out and said they had been paid and in that somewhere I read about the other investors buying the lift. It sounded to me like some of the top members went in on the lift with Jim and there was potential to move it and get some cash because it itself was debt free.

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## machski (Nov 2, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Oh god that would be GLORIOUS! Ya know I have long thought that something was going to change pretty soon here with the new Carinthia base area. That new lodge is VERY impressive in person and the proposed condo development will bring in tons of families that I can see very easily complaining about being at the base of a terrain park only face despite the park being there before they even build the place. I know I've read somewhere online that the idea is to turn one trail or two back into a normal snowmaking trail with no park to allow access. However, I see AMAZING potential in having a park only entire mountain with a whole lot of tree skiing thrown in for good measure. Of course the Barnstormer is wicked overkill for that, but hey if it was still there why not. I have also read that that lift is under a different ownership structure than the mountain, back when the rumor was Dopp was not paid. They came out and said they had been paid and in that somewhere I read about the other investors buying the lift. It sounded to me like some of the top members went in on the lift with Jim and there was potential to move it and get some cash because it itself was debt free.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


I believe the previous poster may have been referring to Hermitage's lodge, not the new Carinthia base.  No chance whatsoever Peaks would have any interest in running to separate areas.  Yes K currently does it with Pico but I can almost guarantee if the interconnect wasn't still the blip on their radar and plans, they would have divested themselves of Pico long ago.  Makes no sense, especially even further south to run two separate facilities not connected or with different purposes.

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## sull1102 (Nov 2, 2018)

machski said:


> I believe the previous poster may have been referring to Hermitage's lodge, not the new Carinthia base.  No chance whatsoever Peaks would have any interest in running to separate areas.  Yes K currently does it with Pico but I can almost guarantee if the interconnect wasn't still the blip on their radar and plans, they would have divested themselves of Pico long ago.  Makes no sense, especially even further south to run two separate facilities not connected or with different purposes.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


He was referring to the Hermitage Clubhouse base lodge (which truly does belong in Aspen it's that nice, I am referring to the Carinthia base lodge. And you never know Peak has Snow on such a strong upward trajectory these days anything could happen if the skier numbers keep growing like they have been. It really wouldn't be totally separate either. You could run the same staff just bounce around, move the Parks Crew down the street. It would be profitable as it's own park only mountain, just look at the success of Carinthia as a brand the past ten years.

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## GregoryIsaacs (Nov 2, 2018)

machski said:


> I believe the previous poster may have been referring to Hermitage's lodge, not the new Carinthia base.  No chance whatsoever Peaks would have any interest in running to separate areas.  Yes K currently does it with Pico but I can almost guarantee if the interconnect wasn't still the blip on their radar and plans, they would have divested themselves of Pico long ago.  Makes no sense, especially even further south to run two separate facilities not connected or with different purposes.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I did mean the Hermitage lodge.... I think it may be the nicest lodge in the northeast. 

That being said, Carinthia will likely have to deal with the problems Sull1102 mentioned. IMO they should have kept the old lodge as a "Carinthia clubhouse", put some XBOX's, couches and a bar and left it for the park rats. The thing already had a freaking skate park halfpipe attached to it!


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## Smellytele (Nov 2, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> He was referring to the Hermitage Clubhouse base lodge (which truly does belong in Aspen it's that nice, I am referring to the Carinthia base lodge. And you never know Peak has Snow on such a strong upward trajectory these days anything could happen if the skier numbers keep growing like they have been. It really wouldn't be totally separate either. You could run the same staff just bounce around, move the Parks Crew down the street. It would be profitable as it's own park only mountain, just look at the success of Carinthia as a brand the past ten years.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



That would be like putting salt in the wounds of the home owners at Hermitage. Already got screwed buying into it then have to deal with park rats.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 2, 2018)

Haystack would be really nice as a park only mountain but it will never happen especially since connecting the two these days would be virtually impossible.


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## skifree (Nov 2, 2018)

Maple Valley would be a great park only mountain.

Makes zero economic sense for Mt Snow to buy Haystack unless if was gifted to them.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 2, 2018)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/winter-prep-wont-ramp-up-at-hermitage-ski-resort,554746

https://www.reformer.com/stories/club-member-claims-consumer-fraud-after-investment,555070


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## sull1102 (Nov 2, 2018)

skifree said:


> Maple Valley would be a great park only mountain.
> 
> Makes zero economic sense for Mt Snow to buy Haystack unless if was gifted to them.


Maple valley would not work for a park mountain. It doesn't have enough vert or infrastructure and needs entirely too much work. Haystack would only work because all the infrastructure you could ever need is already in place and ready to go more or less. All the snowmaking you would need is ready to go and the lifts are just waiting for some riders. I agree with your second point, but I would call $2-5 million pretty much a gift.

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## sull1102 (Nov 2, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> https://www.reformer.com/stories/winter-prep-wont-ramp-up-at-hermitage-ski-resort,554746
> 
> https://www.reformer.com/stories/club-member-claims-consumer-fraud-after-investment,555070


I'd argue the place is losing value buy not being in operation this upcoming winter, bit that's just me. They better haul ass on getting that loan done and the money flowing. They have almost no shot of being open for Christmas vacation this year now it would seem. I'd say overall they have maybe a 20% chance of opening at all and the Barnstormer has a 40% chance of being bought and moved elsewhere. Really sad for a good mountain (bad people though) that had been doing better than ever recently, wish it wasn't all a fake show being put on all along.

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## ss20 (Nov 2, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I'd argue the place is losing value buy not being in operation this upcoming winter, bit that's just me.



It absolutely is losing value.  These members have a lot of money...what's gonna stop them from moving their winter base to Mount Snow, Okemo, or Stowe?  

This cat has had a hellova lot of lives over the years maybe it's finally running out.  I don't want to sound like I'm rooting against the Hermitage... but every iteration of ownership this mountain has had over its 50+ years has failed....quickly.    

Lot's of good equipment on that hill though...toys other mountains would sure love to get for cheap.  I don't want the courts to let it go to s***.


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## Glenn (Nov 3, 2018)

skifree said:


> Maple Valley would be a great park only mountain.



That's actually a really interesting angle. Infrastructure issues not withstanding. 

Another good point in this thread was the member financing of one of the lifts and the impacts that has on keeping things in usable condition. Wonder if that's something that would get sold off sooner than later.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 3, 2018)

ss20 said:


> It absolutely is losing value.  These members have a lot of money...what's gonna stop them from moving their winter base to Mount Snow, Okemo, or Stowe?
> 
> This cat has had a hellova lot of lives over the years maybe it's finally running out.  I don't want to sound like I'm rooting against the Hermitage... but every iteration of ownership this mountain has had over its 50+ years has failed....quickly.
> 
> Lot's of good equipment on that hill though...toys other mountains would sure love to get for cheap.  I don't want the courts to let it go to s***.




Its too bad foreclosure proceedings have to take so long.  This thing has been going on since spring and in a perfect world should have been wrapped up so the new owner could actually operate the place for the winter 


I agree every form of ownership has failed but the private ski area thing could actually work with the right management and no Jim Barnes.  Time will tell


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## machski (Nov 3, 2018)

Glenn said:


> That's actually a really interesting angle. Infrastructure issues not withstanding.
> 
> Another good point in this thread was the member financing of one of the lifts and the impacts that has on keeping things in usable condition. Wonder if that's something that would get sold off sooner than later.


Not just one of the lifts, THE lift that would catch the eye of resort operators.  Thus why the Barnstormer has not had any maintenance during receivership.  It is not bank owned so they don't want to devote $$ to an asset they do not own.  Crazy and sad, though at least the chairs are in barn storage.  Better than the grips/bubbles being exposed to the elements.

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## sull1102 (Nov 3, 2018)

machski said:


> Not just one of the lifts, THE lift that would catch the eye of resort operators.  Thus why the Barnstormer has not had any maintenance during receivership.  It is not bank owned so they don't want to devote $$ to an asset they do not own.  Crazy and sad, though at least the chairs are in barn storage.  Better than the grips/bubbles being exposed to the elements.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


I wonder, could the group that technically owns the Barnstormer pay for maintenance separately? Bring in a small Dopp crew after they finish another job in the region or hire a couple guys on a short week contract. Not even to reopen but just to preserve value for a sale this spring? There's no way in hell that lift sits for two seasons unused when the lift market is on an extreme upward trajectory.

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## Newpylong (Nov 3, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Maple valley would not work for a park mountain. It doesn't have enough vert or infrastructure and needs entirely too much work. Haystack would only work because all the infrastructure you could ever need is already in place and ready to go more or less. All the snowmaking you would need is ready to go and the lifts are just waiting for some riders. I agree with your second point, but I would call $2-5 million pretty much a gift.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Vertical means little in the scheme of having a successful park. Carinthia is 1,000 same as MV as it's perfect. However, the condition of MV is not conducive to doing anything with.


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## machski (Nov 3, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I wonder, could the group that technically owns the Barnstormer pay for maintenance separately? Bring in a small Dopp crew after they finish another job in the region or hire a couple guys on a short week contract. Not even to reopen but just to preserve value for a sale this spring? There's no way in hell that lift sits for two seasons unused when the lift market is on an extreme upward trajectory.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Probably could but the bigger question is could they get granted access to the lift to do the work.  Absolute mess and the group that owns the lift are club owners.  No way will they sell that lift of there is any chance in hell of rescuing the club.  So yes, there is a very large chance that lift sits for years unused.

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## sull1102 (Nov 3, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Vertical means little in the scheme of having a successful park. Carinthia is 1,000 same as MV as it's perfect. However, the condition of MV is not conducive to doing anything with.


.... Being one of the very few snowboarders on here and having many friends into the park scene on both one and two planks, I can assure you vert has a lot to do with attracting enough park riders and skiers to run a business. Maple Valley could never work as a park only mountain. The terrain is not there, the vert is barely 850 feet, the trail layout is not conducive to park riding plain and simple. The pitch isn't really great for a park. The infrastructure is not there, Nitro is crucial to Carinthia's success, those two old doubles are A. Dead and rusting away and B. Even if running slow AF and not what anyone is looking to ride, Carinthia and Haystack have snowmaking already in place and those fan guns do incredible work building up whales fast when the temps are right. MV has nowhere to put the needed snowmaking pond, no guns worthwhile, no big show off trails under the lifts or in front of the lodge. Need I go on?

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## sull1102 (Nov 3, 2018)

machski said:


> Probably could but the bigger question is could they get granted access to the lift to do the work.  Absolute mess and the group that owns the lift are club owners.  No way will they sell that lift of there is any chance in hell of rescuing the club.  So yes, there is a very large chance that lift sits for years unused.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


I think as someone else asked earlier, these members are not going to stick around long. They  have already abandoned this season in many ways and headed for Snow/Stratton from their Club area homes. Don't forget that vote not long ago where a whole bunch voted against the increase in dues that would've helped the place reopen. These are very high up financial sector people in a lot of cases and they will recognize the value dropping the longer it sits. It's also not like we are talking about legendary terrain that is to die for, I mean the place is nice and all, but that type of terrain is found almost anywhere in New England. And you would still have the Poma Triples sitting around as a backup plan.

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## drjeff (Nov 3, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I think as someone else asked earlier, these members are not going to stick around long. They  have already abandoned this season in many ways and headed for Snow/Stratton from their Club area homes. Don't forget that vote not long ago where a whole bunch voted against the increase in dues that would've helped the place reopen. These are very high up financial sector people in a lot of cases and they will recognize the value dropping the longer it sits. It's also not like we are talking about legendary terrain that is to die for, I mean the place is nice and all, but that type of terrain is found almost anywhere in New England. And you would still have the Poma Triples sitting around as a backup plan.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


From my good golfing buddie friend, who is one of the biggest volume real estate brokers in the Mount Snow/Hermitage area for the last decade plus..... There's essentially none of the recently (last 5yrs) built Hermitage built units on the market.... 

And from my insider racer parent perspective, there is basically no Hermitage core racer families leaving the Deerfield Valley....

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## sull1102 (Nov 3, 2018)

drjeff said:


> From my good golfing buddie friend, who is one of the biggest volume real estate brokers in the Mount Snow/Hermitage area for the last decade plus..... There's essentially none of the recently (last 5yrs) built Hermitage built units on the market....
> 
> And from my insider racer parent perspective, there is basically no Hermitage core racer families leaving the Deerfield Valley....
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


I wouldn't expect then to go beyond Mount Snow, maybe go to Stratton, but Snow is just so close that is pretty easy for them to just drive on up and spend the extra on preferred parking and call it a day. Plus the Peak Pass pricing is extremely competitive to boot. I would however expect those that don't own property and we're looking at a future second home to look elsewhere. 

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## machski (Nov 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I wouldn't expect then to go beyond Mount Snow, maybe go to Stratton, but Snow is just so close that is pretty easy for them to just drive on up and spend the extra on preferred parking and call it a day. Plus the Peak Pass pricing is extremely competitive to boot. I would however expect those that don't own property and we're looking at a future second home to look elsewhere.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



"Plus the Peak Pass pricing is extremely competitive to boot.". Seriously on this quote?  The Peaks Pricing creates crowding at Snow which is what folks at the Hermitage paid to avoid.  Do you think they will just come over because pass prices are cheap?  No way in hell.  Will they ski there this year?  Probably some, but one midwinter weekend will have them investigating new ways to reopen the club.  I'm sure Snow is even busier now than it was before Hermitage opened.

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## sull1102 (Nov 4, 2018)

machski said:


> "Plus the Peak Pass pricing is extremely competitive to boot.". Seriously on this quote?  The Peaks Pricing creates crowding at Snow which is what folks at the Hermitage paid to avoid.  Do you think they will just come over because pass prices are cheap?  No way in hell.  Will they ski there this year?  Probably some, but one midwinter weekend will have them investigating new ways to reopen the club.  I'm sure Snow is even busier now than it was before Hermitage opened.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


Yes I am serious. In the ski industry the Peak Pass is very competitive with the other season pass offerings out there from Vail, Alterra, Killington, etc. Actually Snow's crowding that mention would seem to back me up here. I think they will come over because the house is five-ten minutes away and their private hill isn't opening. Not really sure where you think they will find less crowds on weekends in Vermont that isn't going to involve looking for a new second home(which as DrJeff pointed out it seems like those homeowners aren't selling and moving out yet). Snow is as busy as it was at it's peaks years and years ago, but the trajectory has them going right past that number in the next couple years here.

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## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Yes I am serious. In the ski industry the Peak Pass is very competitive with the other season pass offerings out there from Vail, Alterra, Killington, etc. Actually Snow's crowding that mention would seem to back me up here. I think they will come over because the house is five-ten minutes away and their private hill isn't opening. Not really sure where you think they will find less crowds on weekends in Vermont that isn't going to involve looking for a new second home(which as DrJeff pointed out it seems like those homeowners aren't selling and moving out yet). Snow is as busy as it was at it's peaks years and years ago, but the trajectory has them going right past that number in the next couple years here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Pretty sure Owners at the Hermitage aren't that overly concerned with the price of passes...

:roll:


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## machski (Nov 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Yes I am serious. In the ski industry the Peak Pass is very competitive with the other season pass offerings out there from Vail, Alterra, Killington, etc. Actually Snow's crowding that mention would seem to back me up here. I think they will come over because the house is five-ten minutes away and their private hill isn't opening. Not really sure where you think they will find less crowds on weekends in Vermont that isn't going to involve looking for a new second home(which as DrJeff pointed out it seems like those homeowners aren't selling and moving out yet). Snow is as busy as it was at it's peaks years and years ago, but the trajectory has them going right past that number in the next couple years here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


You obviously from this post do not understand the Hermitage crowd.  Airlines are a good value, even first class but they fly in the back of my jets for the last decade which is considerably more expensive why?  The privacy, not dealing with crowds at the terminals and the exclusivity.  Yes, there are those that will pay for those things and if it skips a beat, won't go run to a relatively less expensive product if the experience is inferior.  And it's not just Peaks, it's all the ski operators.  Stowe may still have draw if this thing stays shut depending on those folks travels out west or not.

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## Jully (Nov 4, 2018)

machski said:


> You obviously from this post do not understand the Hermitage crowd.  Airlines are a good value, even first class but they fly in the back of my jets for the last decade which is considerably more expensive why?  The privacy, not dealing with crowds at the terminals and the exclusivity.  Yes, there are those that will pay for those things and if it skips a beat, won't go run to a relatively less expensive product if the experience is inferior.  And it's not just Peaks, it's all the ski operators.  Stowe may still have draw if this thing stays shut depending on those folks travels out west or not.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I definitely agree with you about the price and exclusivity Factor. I think the larger choice for most of the owners this winter is not going to be how to get the best value, but whether or not they want to use their property. 

If they are primarily concerned with skiing, then they're going to go out west or potentially somewhere in the East with the best luxury skiing experience, such as Stowe. Price will not be a factor. If they like and want to use their home or like the community that exists around Hermitage and in the Dover area, they'll go to Snow or Stratton. I don't think pass price will drive that decision at all, it'll be how/if they want to use their home.


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## sull1102 (Nov 4, 2018)

machski said:


> You obviously from this post do not understand the Hermitage crowd.  Airlines are a good value, even first class but they fly in the back of my jets for the last decade which is considerably more expensive why?  The privacy, not dealing with crowds at the terminals and the exclusivity.  Yes, there are those that will pay for those things and if it skips a beat, won't go run to a relatively less expensive product if the experience is inferior.  And it's not just Peaks, it's all the ski operators.  Stowe may still have draw if this thing stays shut depending on those folks travels out west or not.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


Seeing as I know many members, skied there 10+ days a in 15/16, and then worked at the place after that I think you might be assuming a whole hell of a lot here buddy. "My jets" eesh you're a bit pretentious aren't Cha? Do tell me where do you think these members are going to find a place with that privacy? Also you are overestimating the income of many members, 80% are not private jet crowds on your plane. They are first class it business class people and some not there, this was there big purchase. People on your jets would go west or Yellowstone 

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## sull1102 (Nov 4, 2018)

Jully said:


> I definitely agree with you about the price and exclusivity Factor. I think the larger choice for most of the owners this winter is not going to be how to get the best value, but whether or not they want to use their property.
> 
> If they are primarily concerned with skiing, then they're going to go out west or potentially somewhere in the East with the best luxury skiing experience, such as Stowe. Price will not be a factor. If they like and want to use their home or like the community that exists around Hermitage and in the Dover area, they'll go to Snow or Stratton. I don't think pass price will drive that decision at all, it'll be how/if they want to use their home.


For most it's all about the convenience. Sending the family up a day or two early and going up Thursday night or Friday. They also loved that boy's club feel, it wasn't about the skiing for most, more about send the kids out to ski while you and the wife drink and then at night let em run around having a good time. I always relate it to a cruise ship in that sense, you knew everyone in the grounds so it was a safe bubble. As for price of Peak Pass I'm telling in general not just for the rich.

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## drjeff (Nov 4, 2018)

I highly, highly doubt that there will be a sudden sizeable amount of property listings in the general Hermitage Club area hitting the market as people who joined/built/bought there bail out and head to another part of VT/New England for their regular week in and week out skiing fix.

I highly expect to see many faces in the line for the Bluebird at Mount Snow, with Peak Passes on their coats, and in some of the various apres establishments on Mount Snow property, who I haven't seen on the mountain at Mount Snow as much the last few years, at least while the Hermitage isn't spinning it's lifts.

A significant portion of the Hermitage members are just families who love the sport and enjoy spending a decent number of days on the hill per season but with bank accounts larger than most, but as has already been pointed out, the majority aren't at the MEGA rich, private jet owning level of wealth. Maybe net jets charter level  on a multi times a year level, but not private Gulfstream ownership level.

Most members will be skiing in Southern VT as their primary location this season, just likely about 2 miles up the street than last season

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## Jully (Nov 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> For most it's all about the convenience. Sending the family up a day or two early and going up Thursday night or Friday. They also loved that boy's club feel, it wasn't about the skiing for most, more about send the kids out to ski while you and the wife drink and then at night let em run around having a good time. I always relate it to a cruise ship in that sense, you knew everyone in the grounds so it was a safe bubble. As for price of Peak Pass I'm telling in general not just for the rich.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



I figured that the overall vibe and feel of the club/area would be more important than the true skiing. The proximity of Snow and the fact that it sounds like a lot of members know people at Snow already would drive a big crew up the road this year. The fact that the Peak Pass doesn't cost 2k per person just makes that decision even easier too. 

I'm curious of what they'll think of Snow versus Hermitage. It'll be a really different skiing experience than the club.


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## x10003q (Nov 4, 2018)

Mt Snow was always the safety net for purchasing property at the Hermitage. The property risk was minimal. Yeah, it sucks that their own private mountain is not running, but it is not like they now have to drive 30 miles for skiing. They still only have to drive a couple of miles to ski at a fully operating 600 acre ski area.


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## machski (Nov 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> For most it's all about the convenience. Sending the family up a day or two early and going up Thursday night or Friday. They also loved that boy's club feel, it wasn't about the skiing for most, more about send the kids out to ski while you and the wife drink and then at night let em run around having a good time. I always relate it to a cruise ship in that sense, you knew everyone in the grounds so it was a safe bubble. As for price of Peak Pass I'm telling in general not just for the rich.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


I'm sure many will stay local this year and Snow is as close as it gets.  Hopefully some will venture elsewhere (maybe give Magic some love).  I just can't fathom they will just watch lifts, etc get sold off of they have any other avenues of saving Hermitage for later.

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## WWF-VT (Nov 4, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I highly, highly doubt that there will be a sudden sizeable amount of property listings in the general Hermitage Club area hitting the market as people who joined/built/bought there bail out and head to another part of VT/New England for their regular week in and week out skiing fix.
> 
> I highly expect to see many faces in the line for the Bluebird at Mount Snow, with Peak Passes on their coats, and in some of the various apres establishments on Mount Snow property, who I haven't seen on the mountain at Mount Snow as much the last few years, at least while the Hermitage isn't spinning it's lifts.
> 
> ...



I heard that most of the Hermitage owners like to hike for turns and are secretly thrilled in anticipation of no operating lifts this season


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## Equinox (Nov 4, 2018)

Regardless of what options these folks choose, it's still sad to see a perfectly good ski area sit idle. It's even more frustrating to know that it was the fault of poor financial decisions. I'll never have the kind of money that lets me have a second home in ski country, but if I did and was in the position of these folks, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to find a way to make it work. I wish them all the best.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 16, 2018)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/receiver-outlines-winter-plan-for-hermitage-club,556340


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## sull1102 (Nov 17, 2018)

Wow, what happened to the whole loan thing and possibly opening for Christmas? This is really a crushing blow for the place.

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## Glenn (Nov 17, 2018)

Unfortunately, not a lot of good news out of there lately. There have been a few stories in the Reformer in the last few weeks.


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## ghughes20 (Nov 17, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Unfortunately, not a lot of good news out of there lately. There have been a few stories in the Reformer in the last few weeks.



It sounds like little hope to get things running this season.  Very unfortunate for the owners.  It seemed like there was some hope during the summer that they might figure out something for this season.  Seems less likely each day.


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## sull1102 (Nov 17, 2018)

ghughes20 said:


> It sounds like little hope to get things running this season.  Very unfortunate for the owners.  It seemed like there was some hope during the summer that they might figure out something for this season.  Seems less likely each day.


I mean to me this really sounded like the white flag was being waved and it's all over. The one guy is being hired to "winterize" the place and basically batten down the hatches and lock up on the way out.

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## Glenn (Nov 18, 2018)

It may be a long shot....if things are taken care of and shut down properly, could help if financing does come along. Just won't be happening for this ski season.


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## sull1102 (Nov 21, 2018)

https://www.dvalnews.com/news/hermitage-club-turnaround-company-turns-adversary

Oh boy, now they can't even repay a $410k loan from April of this year, man this is going downhill as fast as it possibly can. Has anyone even seen or heard from Jim Barnes in the last 6 months? Seems like he ran away and hid. I also wonder if all the members who had snowmobiles in storage at the club were able to get those back now that the trails are getting very close to opening.


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## Smellytele (Nov 27, 2018)

https://www.boston.com/news/local-n...reclosed-vermont-ski-club-sue-for-9-8-million


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## icecoast1 (Nov 27, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> https://www.boston.com/news/local-n...reclosed-vermont-ski-club-sue-for-9-8-million



That is a perfect example of the craziness of that place, that you have you create a shell company that you are the manager of just to come up with money to build a chairlift


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## MorningWoods (Nov 27, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> That is a perfect example of the craziness of that place, that you have you create a shell company that you are the manager of just to come up with money to build a chairlift



Yeah, not only that but a six pack heated bubble chair lift that costs 2x more than what they need. Why? I get the place is for the elite but no wonder they couldn’t pay their bills. What a complete sh!t show. 


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## sull1102 (Nov 27, 2018)

Once that lawsuit is cleared up those investors will have zero trouble finding a new owner that's willing to pay over $7 million for that lift.

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## icecoast1 (Nov 27, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Once that lawsuit is cleared up those investors will have zero trouble finding a new owner that's willing to pay over $7 million for that lift.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



If it comes to that.  The mountain will re open at some point.  It's just a matter of how rough of shape it's in when it does.


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## AdironRider (Nov 27, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> That is a perfect example of the craziness of that place, that you have you create a shell company that you are the manager of just to come up with money to build a chairlift



I don't know enough about the financials of the club, but this could be, and very likely served some purpose as such, just a way to limit liability. 

Lots of businesses will place certain assets into separate holding companies in case of shit hitting the fan, it doesn't bring the rest of the organization down with it. In this case, if someone was to fall from the lift and sue, they conceivably would only have to liquidate one lift vs the whole operation depending on the judgement. 

It is easy to hate shell corporations but they do serve a purpose in lots of situations. Given homeboys track record he probably abused it from there, but the CPA that set it up probably had good intentions.


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## sull1102 (Nov 27, 2018)

icecoast1 said:


> If it comes to that.  The mountain will re open at some point.  It's just a matter of how rough of shape it's in when it does.


I've become more and more doubtful of that as time roles on here. It's had such a troubled history. A lot of stuff is going to be ripped out soon here, snowmaking equipment, groomers, etc. I also don't view that lift as 100% essential to operation, you could use the Pomas for a whole lot cheaper and build from there.

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## deadheadskier (Nov 27, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Once that lawsuit is cleared up those investors will have zero trouble finding a new owner that's willing to pay over $7 million for that lift.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


The lift cost $7.8M new per the article.  That seems on the high side as is compared to other recent six pack installs.  

Why would a ski area pay $7M for a used six pack that will likely also cost them seven figures plus to move and install?

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## sull1102 (Nov 28, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> The lift cost $7.8M new per the article.  That seems on the high side as is compared to other recent six pack installs.
> 
> Why would a ski area pay $7M for a used six pack that will likely also cost them seven figures plus to move and install?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Was under the impression that these heated bubble six pack lifts are over $9 million to install these days. Perhaps you have data for other recent heated bubble six pack installs? This lift is about as close to mint condition as any out there on the market having been used for just three years on a part time schedule typically weekends only and short seasons. 

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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2018)

Okemo spent $6.9M on theirs in 2014.  1000 feet longer, bigger engine, more chairs. 

Even though Haystacks is in mint condition, I have to imagine there's a fair amount of depreciation and it will be costly to move.  I'd be surprised if it sold for more than $5M. 

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## Smellytele (Nov 28, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Okemo spent $6.9M on theirs in 2014.  1000 feet longer, bigger engine, more chairs.
> 
> Even though Haystacks is in mint condition, I have to imagine there's a fair amount of depreciation and it will be costly to move.  I'd be surprised if it sold for more than $5M.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Is Okemo's heated?


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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2018)

Yes. Apparently theirs was the first heated one in the country

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## jaytrem (Nov 28, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Okemo spent $6.9M on theirs in 2014.  1000 feet longer, bigger engine, more chairs.
> 
> Even though Haystacks is in mint condition, I have to imagine there's a fair amount of depreciation and it will be costly to move.  I'd be surprised if it sold for more than $5M.



I agree when you remove the value of the foundations for the towers, stations and barn, construction costs, engineering, possibly the barn itself, over $5M would be very surprising.


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## sull1102 (Nov 28, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Okemo spent $6.9M on theirs in 2014.  1000 feet longer, bigger engine, more chairs.
> 
> Even though Haystacks is in mint condition, I have to imagine there's a fair amount of depreciation and it will be costly to move.  I'd be surprised if it sold for more than $5M.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Okemo's is also a Poma where as this is a Dopp so that changes things slightly for sure and also many other resorts were slowing down lift installs at that point. Looking around a bit it looks like the Bluebird was $8 million, Stratton just laid out $7.1 million for a non heated non bubble quad. So I may have been off by half a million on what they'll get but I still think it silly to believe they would get a mere $5 million for a heated bubble lift barely used at all with the extra padding seat option.

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## Smellytele (Nov 28, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Okemo's is also a Poma where as this is a Dopp so that changes things slightly for sure and also many other resorts were slowing down lift installs at that point. Looking around a bit it looks like the Bluebird was $8 million, Stratton just laid out $7.1 million for a non heated non bubble quad. So I may have been off by half a million on what they'll get but I still think it silly to believe they would get a mere $5 million for a heated bubble lift barely used at all with the extra padding seat option.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



But the prices are all installed brand new correct?


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## cdskier (Nov 28, 2018)

jaytrem said:


> I agree when you remove the value of the foundations for the towers, stations and barn, construction costs, engineering, possibly the barn itself, over $5M would be very surprising.



Yup. Very important to keep in mind that the actual value of the physical lift itself is not the same as the original cost that was paid.


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## sull1102 (Nov 28, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> But the prices are all installed brand new correct?


Yes, with install costs. Keep in mind though there is something to be said for demand of this summer is the start of a new trend. Moving a lift and installing it at your mountain ala Crotched from Ascutney, is going to quicker and easier than having to get in line and wait. You could be flying in towers while others are still waiting for parts in the parking lot. There's one mountain, yes they have almost all Pomas right now, that is uniquely positioned to take advantage and fly the parts a few miles up the ridge.

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## deadheadskier (Nov 28, 2018)

Burke was going to buy Ascutney's HSQ for $1.5M.  They backed out because of the cost of removal and moving it and went new.   It appears it cost Peak $1.5M to move and install that lift.

Based upon those figures from 5-6 years ago and the HS6 involving much more equipment, I think a fair estimate to move and install that lift at Snow would cost north of $2M.   So, if they were to purchase that lift at $7M it would cost basically the same as a brand new lift.  

$5M (+installation) is a much more reasonable figure, especially considering Hermitage has basically no bargaining position unless there are multiple resorts interested in the product. 

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## NYDB (Nov 28, 2018)

Maybe new kidderbrook lift.  the stratton bogner crowd has to be getting jealous that they have no heated enclosed lifts and are forced to sit outdoors with the plebes when not riding in the gondola.


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## drjeff (Nov 28, 2018)

*IF* Barnstormer comes up for sale and Mount Snow goes after it, one complicating factor should they consider it for Sunbrook, is where would the bubble storage barn go? Down at the base of Sunbrook, there's not a ton of room between the current base terminal of Beartrap and the current base terminal of Sunbrook, and there's a fairly sizeable (maybe 15 to 20 ft deep) ravine that runs from basically across from the Beartrap queue to the Hermitage side of the current queue area for the Sunbrook Quad that limits access there. And up at the summit, that's all USFS land that would have to be permitted for the sizeable footprint for the storage building.  Both base and summit terminal footprints for a HS lift are already larger than fixed grip terminals, and that's before you add in a storage barn footprint for bubbles if one goes that route as well as the likely larger footprint around the base terminal for queue area presuming that more folks would head back to Sunbrook and make some laps once a highspeed goes in....


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## thetrailboss (May 3, 2019)

Bump.

https://www.reformer.com/stories/sheriff-cant-serve-court-papers-to-barnes,571105


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## sull1102 (May 3, 2019)

drjeff said:


> *IF* Barnstormer comes up for sale and Mount Snow goes after it, one complicating factor should they consider it for Sunbrook, is where would the bubble storage barn go? Down at the base of Sunbrook, there's not a ton of room between the current base terminal of Beartrap and the current base terminal of Sunbrook, and there's a fairly sizeable (maybe 15 to 20 ft deep) ravine that runs from basically across from the Beartrap queue to the Hermitage side of the current queue area for the Sunbrook Quad that limits access there. And up at the summit, that's all USFS land that would have to be permitted for the sizeable footprint for the storage building.  Both base and summit terminal footprints for a HS lift are already larger than fixed grip terminals, and that's before you add in a storage barn footprint for bubbles if one goes that route as well as the likely larger footprint around the base terminal for queue area presuming that more folks would head back to Sunbrook and make some laps once a highspeed goes in....


Very late response, but I could see nitro lightly refurbished moved to Sunbrook and Barnstormer to Carinthia. Still not leaving much room for the barn though. 

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## Newpylong (May 4, 2019)

That seems the obvious choice to me. Putting a 6 on Sunbrook would be a complete waste.


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## drjeff (May 4, 2019)

Doubting that I'll be seeing Jim Barnes driving around the Deerfield Valley in his convertible Bentley this Summer....

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## sull1102 (May 4, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> That seems the obvious choice to me. Putting a 6 on Sunbrook would be a complete waste.


Unless they go all out and try to expand that pod  with another trail or two to the side, better access to North Face via the summit, and build a small eating option with 50+ seats. Then you have a very viable full/half day escape from Main Face. Also depends on the health of Nitro, could be in it's last legs for all we know. 

Someone must also want those very nice fixed grip quads Skytrac built. Maybe Challenger or Outpost could see an upgrade as well.

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## drjeff (May 4, 2019)

sull1102 said:


> Very late response, but I could see nitro lightly refurbished moved to Sunbrook and Barnstormer to Carinthia. Still not leaving much room for the barn though.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using AlpineZone mobile app


I was told by multiple folks with some knowledge as to the decision making thought process of the mountain off the record, that because of the common clientele of Carinthia, and the likelihood that a bubble would probably be stickered/scratched/smoked up, that *IF* Barnstormer comes up for auction/purchase in a timely fashion, that Carinthia is far from the 1st place it's installation would be considered for.....

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## sull1102 (May 5, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I was told by multiple folks with some knowledge as to the decision making thought process of the mountain off the record, that because of the common clientele of Carinthia, and the likelihood that a bubble would probably be stickered/scratched/smoked up, that *IF* Barnstormer comes up for auction/purchase in a timely fashion, that Carinthia is far from the 1st place it's installation would be considered for.....
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


That makes me happy because it suggests Carinthia is here to stay the way it is and as I've surely mentioned before I do have my doubts about that. 

I wonder if they would be crazy enough to install a second six pack bubble out of the base area on the main face. Grand Summit certainly hasn't been the most reliable lift on the hill for a couple years now...

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## Newpylong (May 5, 2019)

If they don't want it in Carinthia, Canyon fits the profile almost to the foot ~5500 length/1100 vert. Then move that lift to Sunbrook...

If it was longer you could do some interesting things in Sundance with it.

Or maybe they would simply do a 1 for 1 swap on Sunbrook and be done with it.

Who knows.


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## sull1102 (May 5, 2019)

I didn't even think of Sundance. I don't think that lodge is long for this world. If I remember correctly they had long term plans of bulldozing that area and moving maintenance over there.

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## Pez (May 5, 2019)

sull1102 said:


> I didn't even think of Sundance. I don't think that lodge is long for this world. If I remember correctly they had long term plans of bulldozing that area and moving maintenance over there.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using AlpineZone mobile app



That would be a bummer.  Old school feel to it and the parking / walk is easy.  




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## jg17 (May 5, 2019)

I'm not sure if moving the six pack to Snow makes a ton of sense, since it would be a one off as the lone Doppelmayr among Poma/Leitner-Poma detachables. It would fit in better over at Stratton since they just built a Doppelmayr quad of the same generation last year. I would be surprised to see Snow move away from LPOA with all the existing lifts.

Buying the two Skytracs though, I think would be a good move. At least one of them would be good on North Face, and there's plenty of options across the mountain to replace a second aging Yan. Since Snow hasn't built any fixed grips in decades, it would be a good opportunity to build the relationship with Skytrac as they look to upgrade more lifts in coming years, especially since Skytrac is part of the LPOA family.


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## thebigo (May 5, 2019)

Barnstormer is also a perfect fit vertical and lengthwise for rams head and I believe the rfid gate was built for six.

Of course everything else at k is poma.


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## Newpylong (May 5, 2019)

The only remote fit for one of the Skytracs would be Heavy Metal, even then they would need a new haul rope minimal, possibly additional towers and more HP. Both lifts at the Hermitage are short, low vert and small motors. Low capacity transfer lifts. I don't see MS going away from straight LP lifts either.


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## sull1102 (May 5, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The only remote fit for one of the Skytracs would be Heavy Metal, even then they would need a new haul rope minimal, possibly additional towers and more HP. Both lifts at the Hermitage are short, low vert and small motors. Low capacity transfer lifts. I don't see MS going away from straight LP lifts either.



For the right price, aka bankruptcy auction levels, I could see some combination of Heavy Metal, Discovery Shuttle, Beartrap, and/or Seasons. It would help a lot that Skytrac is now owned by Poma. I could also see it being either they get Barnstormer OR the two sky tracs. Hell, the two Poma Alpha triples are also in good shape. Basically, this could be a weird moment in time where Mount Snow could upgrade 50% of their lift infrastructure for 50% of the cost.


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## machski (May 5, 2019)

Sunday River would happily take Barnstormer for a Barker replacement.  Pretty good fit and Boyne has been all Dopp.

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## drjeff (May 5, 2019)

jg17 said:


> I'm not sure if moving the six pack to Snow makes a ton of sense, since it would be a one off as the lone Doppelmayr among Poma/Leitner-Poma detachables. It would fit in better over at Stratton since they just built a Doppelmayr quad of the same generation last year. I would be surprised to see Snow move away from LPOA with all the existing lifts.
> 
> Buying the two Skytracs though, I think would be a good move. At least one of them would be good on North Face, and there's plenty of options across the mountain to replace a second aging Yan. Since Snow hasn't built any fixed grips in decades, it would be a good opportunity to build the relationship with Skytrac as they look to upgrade more lifts in coming years, especially since Skytrac is part of the LPOA family.


True, essentially all of Mount Snow's high speed lifts are L-P (short of the steel of the lift and terminal towers the Grand Summit has over the years been essentially fully rebuilt by L-P) however, Peak as a company does have Dopp lifts, and I'm guessing that Dopp would gladly service a transplanted Barnstormer *if* it ever moves to Mount Snow... Would likely be a more financially beneficial situation for Dopp than what they're getting from Barnstormer now. And keeping in business with Peak *could* have benefits down the road for Dopp.... 

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## FBGM (May 6, 2019)

Had anyone asked Perdue Pharma yet what they think? Since they make the decisions now? How many OxyContin pills equals a chair lift?


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## Newpylong (May 6, 2019)

There's another thread for that, go away.


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## ss20 (May 6, 2019)

Going out in right field here, but since we're speculating on where Hermitage's six could go I nominate it as a replacement for Stratton's Amex lift.  It would get Stratton in the SoVT bubble craze and replace their oldest six pack which is an absolute work horse for the mountain.  Lot's of Dopp lifts already at Stratton.  

Another great spot would be over at Killington's Ramshead but it'd be the only Dopp on their hill and they seem committed to L-P given they put in their Snowdon Six last year and are putting in the new North Ridge Quad this summer.


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## ss20 (May 6, 2019)

I still say that Mount Snow should replace Canyon with a six, move that hsq to Sunbrook, and move the old Sunbrook quad to replace Heavy Metal.  That yields more capacity out of both Carinthia and Main bases, and spreads people out more around the mountain.  Both necessary (imo) for the inevitable removal of Ego Alley and Sundance lifts.


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## sull1102 (May 6, 2019)

ss20 said:


> I still say that Mount Snow should replace Canyon with a six, move that hsq to Sunbrook, and move the old Sunbrook quad to replace Heavy Metal.  That yields more capacity out of both Carinthia and Main bases, and spreads people out more around the mountain.  Both necessary (imo) for the inevitable removal of Ego Alley and Sundance lifts.


I agree with you, but I do worry about the trail capacity in the Canyon area. Yes, Snowdance is ready to take on quite a lot more people, but still.  There is also enough room over there for the barn that would be needed. Barnstormer was also built for overall less capacity than a normal six-pack so that could make sense for Canyon. Personally I wish they would change their mind about Carinthia because it would really be a nice upgrade over there with the new lodge.

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## drjeff (May 6, 2019)

Bubbles get the attention of the masses... Main face... Crowded! Carinthia... Solid Crowd... Sunbrook with 100% snowmaking, some food + beverage services and a bubble would likely help keep a crowd back there for more than it does now, plus make the at times prevailing winds more tolerable, and thus keeping folks off the main face and Carinthia as well (let's be honest, most folks wanting to ski the Northface aren't going to be lapping Carinthia, or atleast won't be until the proposed US Forest Service glading off of the ridge trail between Sunbrook and Haystack happens) 

*IF* Barnstormer comes up for purchase, and Mount Snow/Peak win the bidding, if they want the lift to have the most impact in terms of trying to ease the current crowding situation, IMHO the only 2 choices would be to replace either Sunbrook or Sundance with it

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## x10003q (May 7, 2019)

This lift would work at Stratton on Kidderbrook.


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## icecoast1 (May 7, 2019)

x10003q said:


> This lift would work at Stratton on Kidderbrook.



If it ever ran.... pretty windy on that side of the hill.  That traverse out of kidderbrook sucks but you put a lift there and you're also going to have the unintended consequence of adding more skiers over there skiing off the powder and glades, I'd rather do the traverse if it means getting more fresh tracks


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## x10003q (May 7, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> If it ever ran.... pretty windy on that side of the hill.  That traverse out of kidderbrook sucks but you put a lift there and you're also going to have the unintended consequence of adding more skiers over there skiing off the powder and glades, I'd rather do the traverse if it means getting more fresh tracks



The previous Kidderbrook quad rarely was on wind hold. There is a whole lot of barely used Kidderbrook terrain that would thin out the crowd on the main face. Fresh tracks are nice, but the runout, which sucks when it is groomed, really sucks when there is fresh snow on it.


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## Newpylong (May 8, 2019)

Like K's South Ridge, Kidderbrook area is broken without the lift. The quad very rarely was on wind hold.


----------



## slatham (May 30, 2019)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-companies-file-for-bankruptcy,574889


----------



## drjeff (May 30, 2019)

Time will tell *IF* this is the actually beginning of what will allow the club to move on out of the Barnes era and into whatever it may (or may not) become in the coming years


----------



## mister moose (May 30, 2019)

> More than 200 creditors are owed, according to the bankruptcy form. The 20 largest include Haymaker Investments LLC, which is owed $1.5 million for investment memberships; ... Rob Girschek of Boston, who is owed $700,000 for investment memberships, the Tanaglia brothers of Wildwood, N.J., who are owed $600,000 for investment memberships,... Bob Rubin of West Dover, former Hermitage interim president and vice president of construction who is owed $500,000 for a membership investment and bridge loan; Douglas Hollenbeck of Westerly, R.I., who is owed $500,000 for a investment membership; ... Dan McLeod of Stamford, Conn., who is owed $350,000 for an investment membership; Carmen Martocchio of Vernon, Conn., who is owed $300,000 for an investment membership; ... Joseph Willen of Northport, N.Y., who is owed $250,000 for an investment membership; Steven Albert of Armonk, N.Y., who is owed $200,000 for an investment membership; Rob Aubin of Londonderrry, who is owed $200,000 for an investment membership; Kevin Siebrecht of Brookfield, Conn., who is owed $200,000 for an investment membership; Dana Nielsen of Weston, Mass., who is owed $200,000 for an investment membership; Bill Russell of Fairfield, Conn., who is owed $200,000 for an investment membership; ... Rogger and Isabelle Alvarado of Weston, Conn., who are owed $159,600 for an investment membership; and Sean Winters of St. James, N.Y., who is owed $150,000 for an investment membership.



That's a lot of investment memberships, with lots of different amounts.


----------



## MG Skier (May 31, 2019)

Oh boy, I guess it will be interesting to see how this all actually unfolds.


----------



## WWF-VT (May 31, 2019)

"In an affidavit, Barnes said the Hermitage is "confident that given its state-of-the-art facilities and favorable geographical proximity to millions of potential members, the company can use the Chapter 11 cases to successfully gain access to the additional capital and liquidity necessary to reopen and continue to upgrade the resort and its facilities, reassure and expand its membership base, restructure its balance sheet and negotiate the terms of a plan of reorganization."


Sounds like a load of BS from a guy that was ducking the Sheriff to avoid being served court documents.

https://www.reformer.com/stories/sheriff-cant-serve-court-papers-to-barnes,571105?


----------



## FBGM (May 31, 2019)

Did the crack heads start stripping copper out of this place yet? Or are the drugs free with season passes to Mt snow this year? That will help the H problem in the area.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 31, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> *Sounds like a load of BS* from a guy that was ducking the Sheriff to avoid being served court documents.



It is.   

No way somebody (else) is dumb enough to capitalize that place, not without major collateral.

 I'm surprised they found a sucker the first time.


----------



## mister moose (May 31, 2019)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm surprised they found a sucker the first time.


But they found far more than one - 

The 15 Investment memberships are owed a total of 6.01 million.


----------



## icecoast1 (Jun 1, 2019)

Just another desperate ploy by Barnes to avoid losing the place to the bank.  Too bad they couldn't proceed with the auction sooner.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2019)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-club-plan-focuses-on-company-being-publicly-traded,575226

What a bunch of crap.  He's lost all credibility and thinks he will go public?!


----------



## FBGM (Jun 10, 2019)

They should just burn it down. Collect the insurance money. If it works for the neighbors why not them.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> https://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-club-plan-focuses-on-company-being-publicly-traded,575226
> 
> What a bunch of crap.  He's lost all credibility and thinks he will go public?!



I can't believe he's still involved at all. If I was a member there, I would not be willing to give another dime of dues until he was 100% out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 10, 2019)

cdskier said:


> I can't believe he's still involved at all. If I was a member there, I would not be willing to give another dime of dues until he was 100% out.



He doesn't seem to understand that by going "public" he would have to disclose a shit-ton of information and accountings which he probably doesn't want to do....


----------



## mbedle (Jul 29, 2019)

Chapter 7 strikes... 

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2019...g&utm_medium=wasabi&utm_content=recirc-latest


----------



## tnt1234 (Jul 29, 2019)

Oh well.  Not like I could ever ski there.

But I do feel bad for the folks who bought houses and memberships.

Any good skiing there?  Could be a cool place to skin next season....


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2019)

mbedle said:


> Chapter 7 strikes...
> 
> https://unofficialnetworks.com/2019...g&utm_medium=wasabi&utm_content=recirc-latest



Now is your chance to move from armchair resort owner on AZ to real resort owner.  

I would imagine that if there was a forced Chapter 7 move that the members feel that they have SOMEONE to step in and buy the place.  From what I've seen in these sort of deals, the first step is to see if the assets can be sold as one item before dividing and selling each item individually.  

And I looked at the UN link.  In the map, am I correct in seeing a runway in the lower right hand corner?  Is that a public or private airport? 







I wonder if Vail would consider buying.  That would be interesting.


----------



## jaytrem (Jul 29, 2019)

Barnes purchased the airport during his buying spree.  Not sure which company it belongs to.


----------



## urungus (Jul 29, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Now is your chance to move from armchair resort owner on AZ to real resort owner.



Haystack ski area sold for $5 million in 2005 and $6.5 million in 2011.  But I think I’m going to use my imaginary millions to purchase Burke instead.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 30, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> And I looked at the UN link.  In the map, am I correct in seeing a runway in the lower right hand corner?  Is that a public or private airport?



Its a public airport, Barnes used to own it then sold it off a few years ago to expedite the act 250 process


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 30, 2019)

tnt1234 said:


> Oh well.  Not like I could ever ski there.
> 
> But I do feel bad for the folks who bought houses and memberships.
> 
> Any good skiing there?  Could be a cool place to skin next season....






This is actually a good thing because it rids the place of Jim Barnes.   Get the right ownership and management in there and the place can do well


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2019)

https://www.airnav.com/airport/4V8

Hermitage owned 


Appears 'Jim Barnes " is the manager


----------



## WWF-VT (Jul 30, 2019)

icecoast1 said:


> This is actually a good thing because it rids the place of Jim Barnes.   Get the right ownership and management in there and the place can do well



Chapter 7 and assets sale....what will be left to own and manage


----------



## drjeff (Jul 30, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> Chapter 7 and assets sale....what will be left to own and manage



I suppose it could range from basically everything (if a single buyer makes an offer on everything and Berkshire Bank agrees to the offer) to maybe just a few Inns and/or the glorified wedding reception location that the clubhouse (base lodge) is. Only time will tell and the selling nears/begins....


----------



## EPB (Jul 30, 2019)

Deleted duplicate


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## EPB (Jul 30, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I suppose it could range from basically everything (if a single buyer makes an offer on everything and Berkshire Bank agrees to the offer) to maybe just a few Inns and/or the glorified wedding reception location that the clubhouse (base lodge) is. Only time will tell and the selling nears/begins....


As TB alluded, the trustee is mandated to get the best deal for the assets as possible so creditors get the best possible recovery. If that means being sold together as one business, then great. If not, selling the chairlifts to the highest bidder(s) and the fixed assets at the base to others is the next best option.

I think Vail is the best chance at a sale as a going concern, though. They have the most to gain from Haystack out of anyone - especially if they can run it as part of Mount Snow. Otherwise, the value of the individual assets probably exceed the value of the business as a going concern.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 30, 2019)

I doubt Vail is interested. It has already been run on the Mount Snow ticket and was a money losing proposition.


----------



## EPB (Jul 30, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> I doubt Vail is interested. It has already been run on the Mount Snow ticket and was a money losing proposition.


The rationale would need to be capacity - I've only been to Snow once, but could it handle a 20% jump in Saturday/holiday attendance? The webcam screen grabs I've seen on social media look insane.

Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mister moose (Jul 30, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> And I looked at the UN link.  In the map, am I correct in seeing a runway in the lower right hand corner?  Is that a public or private airport?





> [h=3]Airport Ownership and Management from official FAA records[/h]​
> Ownership: Privately-ownedOwner: DEERFIELD VALLEY REG AIRPORT, LLC
> HERMITAGE REALTY ESTATE HOLDING CO., 25 HANDLE ROAD
> WEST DOVER, VT 05356
> ...



[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]http://www.airnav.com/airport/4V8

I've flown there, it's a sidewalk in a hilly area with a weak instrument approach.  That means tough to get in when you have lots of low overcast, like in the winter.  It's a short runway, 2.600 feet, so that means a single engine or something llike a Cape Air 402, not a jet.  Still, it's a runway far closer to a ski area than anywhere else I can think of in the east.
[/FONT]


----------



## drjeff (Jul 30, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> The rationale would need to be capacity - I've only been to Snow once, but could it handle a 20% jump in Saturday/holiday attendance? The webcam screen grabs I've seen on social media look insane.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



As a Mount Snow regular, last season most weekends from roughly Tnanksgiving through the 3rd week or so of March felt like a typical Holiday weekend crowd. And Holiday weekends (if the weather was remotely decent) felt like "top 5 days all time" crowds.

Could you manage it if they had ample terrain open, once you got away from the main base area and the Carinthia base area? Yup. Was this quite noticeable and of concern to those of us regulars who ski Mount Snow week in and week out and have for many years, if not decades? Yup.  There were definitely numerous times last season in *SOME* locations of the resort, where it felt like the volume of skiers/riders on the hill had exceeded what the acreage can reasonably handle.

Going to be interesting to see how this plays out with the integration of the Epic pass now... Will the crowds get worse? Will some of the Peak pass folks who had been gravitating heavily to Mount Snow last season drive a bit further to Okemo? Will Vail in the coming seasons make a move to expand lift capacity (or more importantly downhill acreage)? Lot's of unknowns and to be determined items for sure.

In the back of my head though, for a multitude of reasons, there's at best a 1 in 4 chance that Vail makes a move on The Hermitage and takes on the permitting challenges of connecting the 2.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 30, 2019)

mister moose said:


> http://www.airnav.com/airport/4V8
> 
> I've flown there, it's a sidewalk in a hilly area with a weak instrument approach.  That means tough to get in when you have lots of low overcast, like in the winter.  It's a short runway, 2.600 feet, so that means a single engine or something llike a Cape Air 402, not a jet.  Still, it's a runway far closer to a ski area than anywhere else I can think of in the east.



And least not forget that at the Northern end of the Runway, you have to deal with those pesky golfers playing #17 at the Mount Snow Golf Club from mid May through mid October :wink:

I'm sure it's actually further than it looks, but every time I play that hole, including last Friday, it seems like the end of the runway there isn't much more than 100, maybe 150 yards from the edge of the left rough.  And there was absolutely no activity that I could see in the air or on the tarmac last Friday from about 8:30AM until about 2:30PM when I was on the golf course property.  Typically in most nice Summer Friday's as it was last Friday, you'd see or hear a plane or 2 in the air by the airport or see a plane or 2 parked on the tarmac. Not now, which apparently for the local pilots is a shame, as one of the spending sprees that Jim Barnes went on was a repaving and upgrading of the runway, taxi ways and tarmac area a few years ago, and the asphalt from the golf course looks like a relatively freshly paved/repaved road right now, which was a far cry from what it once looked like (I had heard someone once joke that once they were done cutting the grass at the golf course, they'd send a few of the rough mowers over to the runway to take care of all the areas of grass that were growing through the aging old pavement! :lol:


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2019)

mister moose said:


> [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]http://www.airnav.com/airport/4V8
> 
> I've flown there, it's a sidewalk in a hilly area with a weak instrument approach.  That means tough to get in when you have lots of low overcast, like in the winter.  It's a short runway, 2.600 feet, so that means a single engine or something llike a Cape Air 402, not a jet.  Still, it's a runway far closer to a ski area than anywhere else I can think of in the east.
> [/FONT]



Notam says it’s been closed since June 3rd

Ski Liberty has an airport nearby but not walking distance.


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## Domeskier (Jul 30, 2019)

drjeff said:


> In the back of my head though, for a multitude of reasons, there's at best a 1 in 4 chance that Vail makes a move on The Hermitage and takes on the permitting challenges of connecting the 2.



Or maybe they could run it as a separate luxury destination without the private club element.  The basic infrastructure is already there.  Market is as a high-end spa with skiing for the kids.  Basically a Vail-East experience for people too busy to go West.  I guess that maybe cuts in one of Stowe's target demographics, though.


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## mister moose (Jul 30, 2019)

drjeff said:


> I'm sure it's actually further than it looks, but every time I play that hole, including last Friday, it seems like the end of the runway there isn't much more than 100, maybe 150 yards from the edge of the left rough.



Guesstimating off google maps, it's about 370 feet from the numbers to the centerline of the fairway.  At a standard approach angle for an airplane trying to stick the numbers before the flare, that puts you 23 feet above runway elevation when you're over the fairway.

There's not very many places you need a horn for an airplane, but that might be one of them.


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## drjeff (Jul 30, 2019)

mister moose said:


> Guesstimating off google maps, it's about 370 feet from the numbers to the centerline of the fairway.  At a standard approach angle for an airplane trying to stick the numbers before the flare, that puts you 23 feet above runway elevation when you're over the fairway.
> 
> There's not very many places you need a horn for an airplane, but that might be one of them.



*IF* the that airport ever reopens, I'll make sure NOT to tell my son this, as one of his "favorite" things to do when at a golf driving range is to try and hit the range picking vehicle if it's out there.... I'm sure in the mind of a teenage male, especially if he was out on the course with some of his other teenage male ski and golf buddies and a plane was on approach, it wouldn't be that far of a leap in their minds to say "range cart target" ='s "airplane" ;-)


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## icecoast1 (Jul 30, 2019)

eastern powder baby said:


> As TB alluded, the trustee is mandated to get the best deal for the assets as possible so creditors get the best possible recovery. If that means being sold together as one business, then great. If not, selling the chairlifts to the highest bidder(s) and the fixed assets at the base to others is the next best option.
> 
> I think Vail is the best chance at a sale as a going concern, though. They have the most to gain from Haystack out of anyone - especially if they can run it as part of Mount Snow. Otherwise, the value of the individual assets probably exceed the value of the business as a going concern.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using AlpineZone mobile app



There was a group of members trying to buy it from Barnes before it got this bad and he refused.  But who knows if they would still be interested in it.


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## raisingarizona (Jul 30, 2019)

mister moose said:


> [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]http://www.airnav.com/airport/4V8
> 
> I've flown there, it's a sidewalk in a hilly area with a weak instrument approach.  That means tough to get in when you have lots of low overcast, like in the winter.  It's a short runway, 2.600 feet, so that means a single engine or something llike a Cape Air 402, not a jet.  Still, it's a runway far closer to a ski area than anywhere else I can think of in the east.
> [/FONT]



The runway may be short but I’m more intrigued by all of that above tree line terrain just left of the ski area summit. Any chance to get a lift up there into those alpine snowfields?


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## WWF-VT (Jul 31, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> The runway may be short but I’m more intrigued by all of that above tree line terrain just left of the ski area summit. Any chance to get a lift up there into those alpine snowfields?



LOL..the only "snowfields" that exist are in the artist's picture of the mountain.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jul 31, 2019)

WWF-VT said:


> LOL..the only "snowfields" that exist are in the artist's picture of the mountain.



Correct, this area is not snowfields, but judging by the unique shape of haystacks summit (some people have even claimed its a dormant volcano) Id say that there would be some good back-country vertical in the area over Haystack Pond. 

Anyone ever have a chance to ski that area of the summit? 

Of the few times ive skied there, Id say the Enchanted Forrest Glades are as good (and empty) as they get for New England Tree Skiing


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 1, 2019)

https://vtskiandride.com/hermitage-club-assets-go-on-the-block/


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## machski (Aug 28, 2019)

First pieces of Hermitage have been approved to be removed and sold off by a creditor.
https://www.reformer.com/stories/new-jersey-bank-can-take-haystack-snow-guns,583074

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## sull1102 (Nov 8, 2019)

Per an Instagram post, Mount Snow snow makers removed some Techno Alpin fans from the Hermitage over the past week after Papa Vail won them at auction. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Pez (Nov 8, 2019)

I hiked mount snow back in September and on the way home took a detour.  With stuff being sold off it seems like the end of the road. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## drjeff (Nov 8, 2019)

sull1102 said:


> Per an Instagram post, Mount Snow snow makers removed some Techno Alpin fans from the Hermitage over the past week after Papa Vail won them at auction.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


https://www.instagram.com/p/B4i4_QoFkva/?igshid=10era2ncddzle

That must of been one mighty fun vehicle to cruise around in! #bigboystoys!

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## raisingarizona (Nov 8, 2019)

Pez said:


> View attachment 25546
> 
> I hiked mount snow back in September and on the way home took a detour.  With stuff being sold off it seems like the end of the road.
> 
> ...



I read the nelsap history on haystack today and man, it kind of sounds like that place has been doomed since day one.


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## icecoast1 (Nov 9, 2019)

Pez said:


> View attachment 25546
> 
> I hiked mount snow back in September and on the way home took a detour.  With stuff being sold off it seems like the end of the road.
> 
> ...




Depends on how it ends up being sold, if it gets sold in one piece then there's probably a good chance of it surviving, if it goes in pieces then yes it's probably doomed.   This sale of snowguns was separate from the main foreclosure/sale of the mountain


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## cdskier (Jan 15, 2020)

Some company offered $4M for Hermitage and Boyne offered $3.5M for the Barnstormer 6 pack. Looks like they now want to move forward with an auction in the next month or so to see if they can get more than those offers if I'm understanding this correctly.

https://www.reformer.com/stories/75-million-offer-submitted-for-hermitage-club-assets,594671


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## sull1102 (Jan 15, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Some company offered $4M for Hermitage and Boyne offered $3.5M for the Barnstormer 6 pack. Looks like they now want to move forward with an auction in the next month or so to see if they can get more than those offers if I'm understanding this correctly.
> 
> https://www.reformer.com/stories/75-million-offer-submitted-for-hermitage-club-assets,594671



I wonder where Boyne wants to send the 6 pack, maybe Sunday River? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ss20 (Jan 15, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> I wonder where Boyne wants to send the 6 pack, maybe Sunday River?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That lift has 5,400' length, 1,200' rise.  

Off the top of my head logical places to put that that are owned by Boyne-

Kanc Quad at Loon
Aurora at SR
Tempest at SR
Barker at SR

Not familiar enough with Sugarloaf to speculate.


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## chuckstah (Jan 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> That lift has 5,400' length, 1,200' rise.
> 
> Off the top of my head logical places to put that that are owned by Boyne-
> 
> ...


Almost certainly Barker at SR. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thebigo (Jan 15, 2020)

ss20 said:


> That lift has 5,400' length, 1,200' rise.
> 
> Off the top of my head logical places to put that that are owned by Boyne-
> 
> ...



Would have to think Barker is the most likely, good fit profile wise and in desperate need of replacement.


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## sull1102 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kanc Quad is up for permitting to go to an 8 person detach so that knocks that off the list too. However, I could see Boyne scrubbing that plan and saying let's save some coin and get the marketing push with the first bubble and heated six pack in NH. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## icecoast1 (Jan 16, 2020)

If you're going to buy that mountain, you might as well buy Barnstormer too unless you plan to just liquidate it, and without that new lift, there's no way theres more than 4.5 million worth of sellable assets


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## ss20 (Jan 16, 2020)

I do feel some sympathy for the people who invested in the Hermitage.  Rich as they may be, no one deserves to be scammed.  

I am out of sympathy for people who have tried to make Haystack a viable operation.  Literally every decade the cycle of failure continues.  Literally.  Every.  Decade.  I say liquidate the crap outta it and re-vegetate it.  Maybe keep a couple backcountry trails off the ridgeline.


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## sull1102 (Jan 16, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> If you're going to buy that mountain, you might as well buy Barnstormer too unless you plan to just liquidate it, and without that new lift, there's no way theres more than 4.5 million worth of sellable assets



My only thought is IF you were planning to operate the place and you had another mountain or two in your portfolio you could move Barnstormer to that mountain and move whatever lift you are replacing to Haystack with the plan to run the place weekends and holidays only. I'm thinking something like Waterville buying it to replace White Peaks and then that lift lives out the rest of it's days as the new Haystack summit lift. Of course in the end it's likely cheaper in the mid to long term to just buy a new lift in this scenario and not move the 6 pack at all. 

New owner will also need to replace many fan guns and the entire grooming fleet. 

Oh! And you likely also have a legal battle to figure out if you can even be a public ski area. But with the rise of Snow as one of the most crowded resorts in New England you would think Haystack could make it through. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## sull1102 (Jan 17, 2020)

Just doing some digging, Barnstormer seems to have a good shot at being the new Kanc 6 Pack. The vert lines up well and they'd have some extra length so some minor engineering needed. Also Loon is entirely Dopp so that seems to make almost too much sense. Be the first bubble 6 in NH and save a couple million in the process. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## MG Skier (Jan 17, 2020)

If I were a major group with opportunities to acquire a lift I'd want to move it to the closest mountain that needs a lift. Fuel costs aren't what they used to be and the bigger the lift as in 6 pack = more trucks, more gallons of fuel. But, what do I know my yearly budget/salary is a drop in the bucket to a major operation. I will say I really enjoy lift construction!


----------



## drjeff (Jan 17, 2020)

MG Skier said:


> If I were a major group with opportunities to acquire a lift I'd want to move it to the closest mountain that needs a lift. Fuel costs aren't what they used to be and the bigger the lift as in 6 pack = more trucks, more gallons of fuel. But, what do I know my yearly budget/salary is a drop in the bucket to a major operation. I will say I really enjoy lift construction!



I still say that the helicopter plucking the towers off of their current pads at the Hermitage, and flying them less than 2 miles North to the Sunbrook line at Mount Snow, and and then making the roughly 5 mile round trip with the 18 wheelers for the terminal parts and chairs, haul rope, etc, is still certainly in play.

Guessing that Boyne's offer won't be the only offer for that chair. They just started the bidding in this "game"


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 17, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I still say that the helicopter plucking the towers off of their current pads at the Hermitage, and flying them less than 2 miles North to the Sunbrook line at Mount Snow, and and then making the roughly 5 mile round trip with the 18 wheelers for the terminal parts and chairs, haul rope, etc, is still certainly in play.
> 
> Guessing that Boyne's offer won't be the only offer for that chair. They just started the bidding in this "game"



Only about a 20 mile flight to Okemo.  And we already know they're getting a 6 next year.


----------



## drjeff (Jan 17, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Only about a 20 mile flight to Okemo.  And we already know they're getting a 6 next year.



Pretty sure they announced that Okemo's would be a Leitner-Poma manufactured bubble six, so that eliminates the Dopp that the Hermitage's is...

Plus, could you imagine the chaos it would cause if they had to install a gray bubble vs the orange bubbles the okemo clientele are used too!! :-o;-):roll::razz:

Who knows where it will end up....  Guessing now it seems like the least likely place will be at the Hermitage....


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 17, 2020)

Was the manufacturer and bubble part ever announced?  I assume they would prefer to be all Poma, but if the price is right....

Also, when was the last time Vail built a bubble?  Maybe Vista Bahn?


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Was the manufacturer and bubble part ever announced?  I assume they would prefer to be all Poma, but if the price is right....
> 
> Also, when was the last time Vail built a bubble?  Maybe Vista Bahn?



I forgot which lift site I read it on...maybe liftblog?  But it was confirmed by an Okemo admin, that the new lift was going to be a Leitner/Poma and that L/P would also be handling the moving of the existing Quantum 4.

And yup, the last time Vail Resorts actually built a new bubble was the Vista Bahn back in the 80's.  Although they now own a Dopp bubble 4 out at Park City, and 2, soon to be 3 L/P bubble 6's and a L/P bubble 4 between Mount Snow and Okemo.

Not sure what their international ownership resort portfolio vs just "partner EPIC resorts" and their lift types are off the top of my head...


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

i just posted a new thread for an article about all the sanctioned vt backcountry zones, but the most interesting piece of the article to me was that they are actively glading 800 acres between snow and haystack. if vail were to buy haystack, connect with a slide-brooky type lift, and keep the middle fully gladed, it would take mount snow into the big leagues.


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## slatham (Jan 17, 2020)

So if I recall correctly, Rainmaker Mountain LLC was formed by a bunch of Hermitage members. The Barnstormer is owned by a bunch of Hermitage owners. If the same group, sell Barnstormer for $3.5mm (or more), buy rest of Hermitage for $4mm, and the club is back in business (especially if Barnstormer sells for more than $3.5). But I have no idea if the Rainmaker investors=Barnstormer investors.


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## jaytrem (Jan 17, 2020)

drjeff said:


> And yup, the last time Vail Resorts actually built a new bubble was the Vista Bahn back in the 80's.  Although they now own a Dopp bubble 4 out at Park City, and 2, soon to be 3 L/P bubble 6's and a L/P bubble 4 between Mount Snow and Okemo.



So you know for sure they're building a new bubble and keeping the bubble on the relocated lift?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 17, 2020)

Yes, it was confirmed some where along the line by an Okemo official statement.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 17, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yes, it was confirmed some where along the line by an Okemo official statement.



I keep hearing that, but nobody ever provides a link.  I know I haven't seen anything official.  At any rate I'm sure it wouldn't go over too well if there is no new bubble, but since when has Vail cared about that?


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## drjeff (Jan 17, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yes, it was confirmed some where along the line by an Okemo official statement.



That's exactly what I remember,  The new lift will be an L/P orange bubble 6 with heated seats, and the movement/reinstallation of Quantum 4 will retain its bubbles and also be done by L/P


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## icecoast1 (Jan 17, 2020)

slatham said:


> So if I recall correctly, Rainmaker Mountain LLC was formed by a bunch of Hermitage members. The Barnstormer is owned by a bunch of Hermitage owners. If the same group, sell Barnstormer for $3.5mm (or more), buy rest of Hermitage for $4mm, and the club is back in business (especially if Barnstormer sells for more than $3.5). But I have no idea if the Rainmaker investors=Barnstormer investors.




If Rainmaker is Hermitage members, I am shocked they didn't try to be the stalking horse for the lift as well, because if they want to run the mountain, they need that lift.


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## sull1102 (Jan 17, 2020)

I believe Rainmaker is not the group of club members according to that article.


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## thebigo (Jan 17, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Yes, it was confirmed some where along the line by an Okemo official statement.



It was also posted in the comments on liftblog by the dude who runs liftblog, a reliable source. Speaking of liftblog, top story is on the kanc 8, safe to say boyne has no intention of placing the barnstormer at loon.

And rainmaker is about the worst possible name for a group of ski area investors.


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

loon just sent an email with a promo video for kanc8. where on the moutnain will they be putting it? hopefully t2b augmenting the gondola?


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## mister moose (Jan 17, 2020)

thebigo said:


> And rainmaker is about the worst possible name for a group of ski area investors.


Did you know that Barnstormers were a pretty cash starved profession as well and frequently went bust?


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## chuckstah (Jan 17, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> loon just sent an email with a promo video for kanc8. where on the moutnain will they be putting it? hopefully t2b augmenting the gondola?


The kanc 8 will replace the Kank quad, at the West Basin. Not TTB. The Kank 4 is then most likely replacing 7 Brothers 3, improving movement out of the gondy area. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 17, 2020)

thanks


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## Dickc (Jan 17, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> The kanc 8 will replace the Kank quad, at the West Basin. Not TTB. The Kank 4 is then most likely replacing 7 Brothers 3, improving movement out of the gondy area.
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



https://liftblog.com/2020/01/17/announcing-kanc-8-the-easts-first-eight-pack/?fbclid=IwAR0vrOhpXzx5ik4u5PIiNOolqAD-l8Ubq202MhqOP4YAPU0A9r86TEn9EaQ  Announcement on the Kanc 8 at liftblog.


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## sull1102 (Jan 19, 2020)

Oh boy....  https://www.reformer.com/stories/potential-hermitage-buyer-identified,594866

This should get pretty interesting. 


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## icecoast1 (Jan 19, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> Oh boy....  https://www.reformer.com/stories/potential-hermitage-buyer-identified,594866
> 
> This should get pretty interesting.
> 
> ...





Jim Barnes 2.0?


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## Smellytele (Jan 19, 2020)

So they will buy the real estate and ski area without the main lift which Boyne has bid on?


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## drjeff (Jan 20, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> So they will buy the real estate and ski area without the main lift which Boyne has bid on?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


I strongly suspect that Boyne's bid on that lift won't be the only bid on that lift before bidding closes in about a month

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## MEtoVTSkier (Jan 21, 2020)

I think you'll be proven right. I'd think that for the real estate buyer, that the lift is worth more where it sits, than allowing it to be bought cheaply and moved.


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> I think you'll be proven right. I'd think that for the real estate buyer, that the lift is worth more where it sits, than allowing it to be bought cheaply and moved.



I'm thinking that the new real estate buyer, if they could get both the lift and the existing real estate for say 10 million, would be quite happy.

And real estate wise, there's a bunch of land there, and a few sites that there slated for development that have had some basic infrastructure work done already (basic clearing, some utility work, etc) .

Additionally, with the crowding situation at Mount Snow now, former members of the Hermitage (and there are still a fair number of them who have chosen to stay in the area and continue to enjoy what the region offers year round) would be interested in a new version of what they had, with some new ownership and probably more open communication of what's going on, are rejoining *should* the potential exist at some point. Time will tell


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## slatham (Jan 21, 2020)

So no ski area management or ownership track record. No current holdings in the NE. Have they managed a club before (can't be anything else)?  I hope they have someone on the team who knows the ski business or this will be repeat.


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## cdskier (Jan 21, 2020)

slatham said:


> So no ski area management or ownership track record. No current holdings in the NE. Have they managed a club before (can't be anything else)?  I hope they have someone on the team who knows the ski business or this will be repeat.



But they've owned car washes! Surely that experience must be applicable to a ski area! :roll:


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## drjeff (Jan 21, 2020)

slatham said:


> So no ski area management or ownership track record. No current holdings in the NE. Have they managed a club before (can't be anything else)?  I hope they have someone on the team who knows the ski business or this will be repeat.


I'm guessing they enter into an agreement with a ski area operations company (who knows, maybe even Boyne??) and they operate the property development, golf course, the various Inn's in the deal, food and beverage operations, etc, and then have the ski area professionals operate the resort.

Not unlike in the country club world these days where you have name courses owning their property and clubhouses, but have course operating companies, often with reciprocal play opportunities and/or multi course memberships, such as Troon Golf, operate the day to day play and maintenance functions 

I agree though that on the surface, if these developers, with apparently no experience in ski operations, try and run The Hermitage on their own, that sounds like a recipe for disaster....

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## KustyTheKlown (Jan 21, 2020)

first item of business needs to be getting rid of that awful 'hermitage' name and branding and becoming haystack again.


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## mister moose (Jan 21, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> first item of business needs to be getting rid of that awful 'hermitage' name and branding and becoming haystack again.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 22, 2020)

It looks to me like their plan is to flip the property.


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## MG Skier (Jan 22, 2020)

SO...car washes.....in the TV show Breaking Bad the money laundering was done through the car wash...... Haha.
I imagine flipping a ski property would take some time, I hope they have a good plan and can save the mountain. I agree keeping the lift would be key as opposed to bringing in a used quad or other chair.


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## machski (Jan 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I'm guessing they enter into an agreement with a ski area operations company (who knows, maybe even Boyne??) and they operate the property development, golf course, the various Inn's in the deal, food and beverage operations, etc, and then have the ski area professionals operate the resort.
> 
> Not unlike in the country club world these days where you have name courses owning their property and clubhouses, but have course operating companies, often with reciprocal play opportunities and/or multi course memberships, such as Troon Golf, operate the day to day play and maintenance functions
> 
> ...


If I were an owner at Hermitage, I wouldn't trust anyone coming in not called Cross Harbour Partners.

As to Boyne's bid on Barnstormer, I seriously would doubt they will get into much of a bidding war for it.  Can't imagine their number goes any higher than about $4 mil.  Given the $$ it will take to remove, package it up, ship it, reinstall (probably after some re-engineering for it's new home by Dopp), any more than that to get said asset and you probably would be better off just starting from scratch.

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## icecoast1 (Jan 22, 2020)

slatham said:


> So no ski area management or ownership track record. No current holdings in the NE. Have they managed a club before (can't be anything else)?  I hope they have someone on the team who knows the ski business or this will be repeat.



All they would need to do is find the right GM with ski industry experience to run the place.  Doesnt really matter what they've done in the past if they find the right people and dont try to micromanage


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## Method9455 (Jan 22, 2020)

What does a fixed grip quad cost? I'm wondering what the minimum cost for re-opening Haystack looks like, it might be cheaper to buy the mountain and buy a different lift than to buy the mountain and buy the existing 6 heated seat bubble lift.


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## cdskier (Jan 22, 2020)

Method9455 said:


> What does a fixed grip quad cost? I'm wondering what the minimum cost for re-opening Haystack looks like, it might be cheaper to buy the mountain and buy a different lift than to buy the mountain and buy the existing 6 heated seat bubble lift.



Off the top of my head, the 3 Quads that Sugarbush installed in the past few years ranged from $1.2M for their shorter Village Quad to $3.0M for their Valley House quad with a carpet loader.


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## mikec142 (Jan 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Off the top of my head, the 3 Quads that Sugarbush installed in the past few years ranged from $1.2M for their shorter Village Quad to $3.0M for their Valley House quad with a carpet loader.



That is mind-blowing to me...$3mm for VH?  Does that include everything?  Or does that just include the equipment.  

My hometown installed a children's playground with swingset and jungle gym and a few other things.  Did some grading and drainage work.  Cost $1mm.  I was floored that it cost that much, but if VH was just 3x the price, our town got ripped off!


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## cdskier (Jan 22, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> That is mind-blowing to me...$3mm for VH?  Does that include everything?  Or does that just include the equipment.
> 
> My hometown installed a children's playground with swingset and jungle gym and a few other things.  Did some grading and drainage work.  Cost $1mm.  I was floored that it cost that much, but if VH was just 3x the price, our town got ripped off!



Everything apparently...here's from the SB press release: "The project is expected to cost around $3 million, including the lift purchase and ancillary costs related to the lift install and relocation of existing business areas."


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## icecoast1 (Jan 22, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Off the top of my head, the 3 Quads that Sugarbush installed in the past few years ranged from $1.2M for their shorter Village Quad to $3.0M for their Valley House quad with a carpet loader.



The amount of work to save a buck would be insane.  Anybody buying the mountain to actually operate it would be crazy to let an essentially brand new lift walk away for pennies on the dollar


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## drjeff (Jan 22, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> The amount of work to save a buck would be insane.  Anybody buying the mountain to actually operate it would be crazy to let an essentially brand new lift walk away for pennies on the dollar


If the property buyer, has any interest in operating the ski area again, in a way that would draw folks to it, they'd be crazy to let that lift go

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## spring_mountain_high (Jan 23, 2020)

with mount snow busy as ever, it makes too much sense to make haystack mt snow's 'pico'...who knows...


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## Method9455 (Jan 23, 2020)

Well if you take these numbers at face value it's $4M for the property + $4.5M for the existing lift vs $4M for the property + $3M for a lower spec one. Does $1.5M (17%) off the purchase price matter? It depends on the business plan. 

I think there are two paths forward with a chance of success. Haystack has to offer a unique alternative to Mount Snow in order to attract customers. One tack would be to optimize for lower cost. Lift tickets at Mount Snow list for $120, but the effective price with even a little forethought is more like $75. So to undercut them on price you need to operate like Magic Mountain and be frugal, a ticket probably needs to be around $65. So every dollar counts. I could imagine buying a used fixed grip lift and just letting the current lift get sold if trying this strategy.

The other path is to offer a less crowded mountain. Sure it's smaller and they make less snow, but no lift lines! A chance for fresh tracks! A Hermitage-light club or something like a higher tiered Epic pass would keep the crowds down. One way or the other it's going to be expensive, probably more per day than Mount Snow even though it's a smaller mountain. In this path the fancy lift is probably a requirement. This is how Hermitage ended up with one of the nicest lifts on the east coast to begin with.


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## icecoast1 (Jan 23, 2020)

Method9455 said:


> Well if you take these numbers at face value it's $4M for the property + $4.5M for the existing lift vs $4M for the property + $3M for a lower spec one. Does $1.5M (17%) off the purchase price matter? It depends on the business plan.
> 
> I think there are two paths forward with a chance of success. Haystack has to offer a unique alternative to Mount Snow in order to attract customers. One tack would be to optimize for lower cost. Lift tickets at Mount Snow list for $120, but the effective price with even a little forethought is more like $75. So to undercut them on price you need to operate like Magic Mountain and be frugal, a ticket probably needs to be around $65. So every dollar counts. I could imagine buying a used fixed grip lift and just letting the current lift get sold if trying this strategy.
> 
> The other path is to offer a less crowded mountain. Sure it's smaller and they make less snow, but no lift lines! A chance for fresh tracks! A Hermitage-light club or something like a higher tiered Epic pass would keep the crowds down. One way or the other it's going to be expensive, probably more per day than Mount Snow even though it's a smaller mountain. In this path the fancy lift is probably a requirement. This is how Hermitage ended up with one of the nicest lifts on the east coast to begin with.




Haystack will never be magic.  They dont have the terrain and it's too upscale, unless you plan on knocking down the clubhouse too.  Haystack will never succeed as a public ski area unless somebody like Vail wanted to buy it and connect it with Mount Snow


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## sull1102 (Jan 23, 2020)

Can Haystack even reopen as a public ski area?


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## cdskier (Jan 23, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> Can Haystack even reopen as a public ski area?



Good question...weren't deed restrictions added when it was previously sold off by ASC? Can deed restrictions be changed if the original seller doesn't even exist anymore? And since it was a restriction placed by ASC/Mt Snow, if the current owner of Mt Snow were to end up being the buyer, could they get the deed restrictions changed and re-open it as public?

Personally I have no idea how any of that works.


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## icecoast1 (Jan 23, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> Can Haystack even reopen as a public ski area?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Good question.  Only the lawyers involved in the sale of peak to Vail know the answer to that


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## jaytrem (Jan 23, 2020)

Lift ticket $100, RFID card (aka membership) $5.


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## O09 (Jan 23, 2020)

Pretty sure that if Mt Snow/Vail owned the deed restriction then they could remove it from the deed or choose not to enforce it.  Not a lawyer.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

LiftBlog is reporting that Boyne has said that if it gets the Barnstormer that it is going to one of their New England Resorts.  Methinks Sunday River.


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## Smellytele (Jan 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> LiftBlog is reporting that Boyne has said that if it gets the Barnstormer that it is going to one of their New England Resorts.  Methinks Sunday River.



Were they not talking about getting one for loon? Maybe this one instead of a new one


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## thebigo (Jan 31, 2020)

Given the marketing literature put out by dopp, it is likely loon is getting their 8. Another option may be bullwinkles access? Boyne has a history of using fancy lifts to access midmountain dining and the profile fits.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Were they not talking about getting one for loon? Maybe this one instead of a new one
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Boy, they just did a media blitz advertising the new 8-Pack.  If they were to walk that back there would be an uprising.


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## sull1102 (Jan 31, 2020)

Def not going to Loon for the Kanc8 at least. Too much marketing has already gone out about the improvements. I did have the thought though about Lincoln Express. Having the second heated bubble in NH be over at South Peak might bring some more traffic that way and also fit the part if the luxury base area ever gets built out. 

All that being said, Sunday River seems to need a new lift a lot more than Loon needs TWO this coming summer.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> Def not going to Loon for the Kanc8 at least. Too much marketing has already gone out about the improvements. I did have the thought though about Lincoln Express. Having the second heated bubble in NH be over at South Peak might bring some more traffic that way and also fit the part if the luxury base area ever gets built out.
> 
> All that being said, Sunday River seems to need a new lift a lot more than Loon needs TWO this coming summer.



Agreed.  Also, LiftBlog and others have reported that Big Sky's Swift Current HSQ is going to get refurbished and sent to Sunday River for their White Cap lift.  So use the Barnstormer to replace the Barker HSQ and install the Swift Current and things at SR would be in good shape.


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## Glenn (Jan 31, 2020)

More bidders and now an offer of $8.4M on the table: 

https://www.dvalnews.com/news/more-hermitage-club-buyers-emerge


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

Glenn said:


> More bidders and now an offer of $8.4M on the table:
> 
> https://www.dvalnews.com/news/more-hermitage-club-buyers-emerge



$8.4 million?!  Wow.  That seems high for a used lift.  Edit:  that is for ALL the assets at the mountain...so snowmaking equipment, other items, etc.  

And if Haystack does in fact go NELSAP, this would only be the SECOND resort with an HS lift that has closed.  The record before Ascutney was that NO mountain with a HS lift had closed.


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## Glenn (Jan 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> $8.4 million?!  Wow.  That seems high for a used lift.



I think that's for the entire property...


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## machski (Jan 31, 2020)

A few of us did some rough research on Barnstormer and it currently covers about 300 feet vertical less than Barker (basically the same as Lincoln at Loon and a base to Bullies at SL).  Fully loaded, Barnstormer was only designed for 41 chairs on the uphill side.  With the added vertical on the 3 listed possible lines, that would reduce the amount of chairs loaded without a bigger drive/transmission if asked to lift more vertical.  So, assuming this info is accurate, those 3 options are probably not really playable.

That said, Seven Brother's would work just fine for this lift.  Someone asked Loon on the NEP group page about the Kanc4 flipping over to Seven Bros and Loon said not necessarily.  They are looking at a few options for Seven Bros, I have a feeling Barnstormer is one of them.  The other usable option given current lift profile is replace Timberline with this.  Extending the base down to Bullie's is probably still well within the design spec of the lift.  

Guess we'll have to wait and see if Boyne wins the bid.

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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

Glenn said:


> I think that's for the entire property...



Yeah I caught that.  All the "assets", which I interpret as lifts, groomers, snowmaking equipment, etc.  I imagine that the bidder is a reseller of such equipment.

If this like a typical liquidation auction, then the auctioneer will take BOTH bids for the entire operation and for the individual assets and then compare what nets the creditor the most money before determining if to sell it piecemeal or as a whole.

And, unfortunately, when Barnes came on the scene and proposed this crazy resort I was one of the skeptical ones and thought that it would end up like this.  He got pretty far though before it blew up.  I'm sad to see another ski area on the ropes.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jan 31, 2020)

Ive always wondered about if the next owner tried turning Haystack into a limited member of EPIC. 

Putting a 5,10 day restriction or even "season pass holders only" limit may help offset the fact that the mountain is not currently set up for a fully public operation (ie the clubhouse).


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## icecoast1 (Jan 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Yeah I caught that.  All the "assets", which I interpret as lifts, groomers, snowmaking equipment, etc.  I imagine that the bidder is a reseller of such equipment.
> 
> If this like a typical liquidation auction, then the auctioneer will take BOTH bids for the entire operation and for the individual assets and then compare what nets the creditor the most money before determining if to sell it piecemeal or as a whole.
> 
> And, unfortunately, when Barnes came on the scene and proposed this crazy resort I was one of the skeptical ones and thought that it would end up like this.  He got pretty far though before it blew up.  I'm sad to see another ski area on the ropes.



Both new bids are from committees of former members that say they want to operate the ski area.  That's why they're bidding on everything as a whole and not individually.


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## icecoast1 (Jan 31, 2020)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Ive always wondered about if the next owner tried turning Haystack into a limited member of EPIC.
> 
> Putting a 5,10 day restriction or even "season pass holders only" limit may help offset the fact that the mountain is not currently set up for a fully public operation (ie the clubhouse).



The only way Haystack will ever be epic is if Vail decides they want to clear the impossible hurdle of buying it and connecting it with Mount Snow


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## Smellytele (Jan 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Boy, they just did a media blitz advertising the new 8-Pack.  If they were to walk that back there would be an uprising.



Well I thought they were talking about a six to replace another lift.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 31, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Well I thought they were talking about a six to replace another lift.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



You know, someone else said that they are looking to replace the other HSQ.  Maybe that is their thought.


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## drjeff (Feb 4, 2020)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/he...9_vpXpwCY_QZOiY8TaqCzyUE7W4vT2H4k_A3rXhke1oOw

Up to 8.4 Million combined offer for the property and the Bubble 6 now. Still about 3 weeks left in the established bidding time. Multiple groups now making offers, although the referenced Greg Samuels offer, with the stipulation that "I am am born royalty as such special consideration is required" almost sounds like Greg Samuels could be a new pseudonym for Jim Barnes....:blink:


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## icecoast1 (Feb 4, 2020)

drjeff said:


> https://www.reformer.com/stories/he...9_vpXpwCY_QZOiY8TaqCzyUE7W4vT2H4k_A3rXhke1oOw
> 
> Up to 8.4 Million combined offer for the property and the Bubble 6 now. Still about 3 weeks left in the established bidding time. Multiple groups now making offers, although the referenced Greg Samuels offer, with the stipulation that "I am am born royalty as such special consideration is required" almost sounds like Greg Samuels could be a new pseudonym for Jim Barnes....:blink:



Haha, that certainly does sound an awful lot like Jim Barnes


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## machski (Feb 4, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Well I thought they were talking about a six to replace another lift.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Loon's plan is the 8 pack at Kanc, upgrading both North Peak and Lincoln HSQ's (assuming that means 6 packs) and upgrading 7 Bros (forest service proposal was to reuse Kanc4 but Loon now says that is not in stone and looking at several options for 7 Bros).  Also, the Gondola is on the list of upgrades too, but that will be the biggest project on the list since the current Octagon Base building will need to be heavily modified/rebuilt for what I would imagine would be an 8 seater Gondi.

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## Smellytele (Feb 4, 2020)

machski said:


> Loon's plan is the 8 pack at Kanc, upgrading both North Peak and Lincoln HSQ's (assuming that means 6 packs) and upgrading 7 Bros (forest service proposal was to reuse Kanc4 but Loon now says that is not in stone and looking at several options for 7 Bros).  Also, the Gondola is on the list of upgrades too, but that will be the biggest project on the list since the current Octagon Base building will need to be heavily modified/rebuilt for what I would imagine would be an 8 seater Gondi.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Didn't they just get new cabins for the Gondola and they are now going to upgrade it?


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## EPB (Feb 4, 2020)

machski said:


> Loon's plan is ... upgrading both North Peak and Lincoln HSQ's (assuming that means 6 packs)...
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



For what it's worth, I haven't been to Loon since either the Lincoln Peak or North Peak quads were installed, but skilifts.org (links below) makes it seem as though both lifts operate significantly below their respective design capacities. Does anyone know if they added chairs to these two lifts over the years? I suspect that they were waiting to add more terrain before they increased uphill capacity. The "upgrades" to these lifts could amount to just buying more chairs for them.

*Lincoln Peak:
*http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/nh-loon/lincoln/lincoln.htm

As of posting, had 95 chairs (~1950 people per hour [ppm] capacity) vs. design of 139 chairs (2800 ppm capacity)

*North Peak:*
http://www.skilifts.org/old/images/resort_images/nh-loon/northpeak/northpeak.html


Initially had 73 chairs (1700 ppm capacity) vs. design of 120 chairs (2800 ppm capacity)


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## Jcb890 (Feb 5, 2020)

Why would they want/build an 8-person chair at Loon? That seems like overkill considering the acreage and trail widths. Sounds like a nightmare to be honest.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 5, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Didn't they just get new cabins for the Gondola and they are now going to upgrade it?



If it is like Steamboat, they will upgrade it piecemeal over the years until it is completely new.


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## Method9455 (Feb 5, 2020)

So to summarize it sounds like 3 legit bids for the lifts + property:
Bruce Waller: $8.4M
Hermitage Club Member Group: $8.25M
AW Realty: $8M

The first 2 bids were not for the whole package:
Rainmaker Mountain LLC: $4M just for the property
Boyne: $3.5M just for the lift

Looking to collect all bids by 2/20 and make a decision on 2/25


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## skef (Feb 23, 2020)

From Today's New York Times Business section (p. eight):

Looks to value the Barnstormer at 8.06M - 4.29M = 3.77M.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 23, 2020)

And Boyne bid 3.6


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## icecoast1 (Feb 24, 2020)

skef said:


> From Today's New York Times Business section (p. eight):
> View attachment 26374
> Looks to value the Barnstormer at 8.06M - 4.29M = 3.77M.



How did a lift that cost 7 million new and is several years old increase in value?


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## mikec142 (Feb 24, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> How did a lift that cost 7 million new and is several years old increase in value?



I think you're reading the ad wrong.  The whole thing (lodge, land, golf course, lifts, infrastructure, etc.) are being auctioned for a little over $8mm.  But if you want to bid on everything minus the barnstormer lift its $4.3mm.  So this values the lift at approximately $3.7mm


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 24, 2020)

Can really see where it makes a whole lot of sense to bid on the place without the lift. I'm not thinking Boyne is gonna end up with it.


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## PaulR (Feb 24, 2020)

One would think that Vail would put in a bid to "protect" their Mount Snow interests.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 24, 2020)

How many more times can Haystack fail?

https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/haystack.php


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## urungus (Feb 24, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> How many more times can Haystack fail?
> 
> https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/haystack.php



I’m hoping at least one more time as I’ve never managed to ski it.  I figure I’ve got until March 16 to win the PowerBall and get my bid in.  But maybe the Balsams would be a cooler resort to waste my millions on...


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## Smellytele (Feb 24, 2020)

urungus said:


> I’m hoping at least one more time as I’ve never managed to ski it.  I figure I’ve got until March 16 to win the PowerBall and get my bid in.  But maybe the Balsams would be a cooler resort to waste my millions on...



Get a pair of at skis and some skins and ski it


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## sull1102 (Feb 24, 2020)

urungus said:


> I’m hoping at least one more time as I’ve never managed to ski it.  I figure I’ve got until March 16 to win the PowerBall and get my bid in.  But maybe the Balsams would be a cooler resort to waste my millions on...



Hermitage is turn key operation, hell you could probably win the auction and fire up a lift the very next day and be skiing this winter if the natural snow provides enough cover. 


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## icecoast1 (Feb 24, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> How many more times can Haystack fail?
> 
> https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/Vermont/haystack.php



As many times as the wrong people keep buying it and mismanaging it.  Or until Vail or Alterra buy it


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## Zermatt (Feb 25, 2020)

What's the status on the restriction about opening to the non-local general public? Has that been thrown out in court?

Add that to the list of boneheaded things Vermonters will do to destroy their economy. Right up there with unrestricted use of your yard for storing trash.


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## pauldotcom (Feb 27, 2020)

*Vail*

There is zero reason Vail will NOT buy it. This looks like a classic Vail move - sweep in on the cheep, connect them up, and new mega-resort (for New England lol). It would most likely pan out to a little more than 1,000 acres.


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## x10003q (Feb 27, 2020)

pauldotcom said:


> There is zero reason Vail will NOT buy it. This looks like a classic Vail move - sweep in on the cheep, connect them up, and new mega-resort (for New England lol). It would most likely pan out to a little more than 1,000 acres.



Vail would go bankrupt due to Act 250 trying to do a Haystack-Mt Snow connection.


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## icecoast1 (Feb 27, 2020)

pauldotcom said:


> There is zero reason Vail will NOT buy it. This looks like a classic Vail move - sweep in on the cheep, connect them up, and new mega-resort (for New England lol). It would most likely pan out to a little more than 1,000 acres.




It makes perfect sense on paper but in reality the state would make Vails life a living hell trying to connect those 2 and that alone would probably be the deal breaker


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## ss20 (Feb 27, 2020)

pauldotcom said:


> There is zero reason Vail will NOT buy it. This looks like a classic Vail move - sweep in on the cheep, connect them up, and new mega-resort (for New England lol). It would most likely pan out to a little more than 1,000 acres.



First, it would never get permitted.

Second, there's no ROI on it.  This isn't Western skiing where you throw a lift up, add electricity, and put in a patrol/warming hut up top.  This terrain would need to have snowmaking and grooming.  The size of the behemoth resort you'd have would mean you have wayyyyy too much in costs midweek.  Sure you have capacity for 15,000+ skiers on the weekend, but you don't need a 1,000 acre resort on a Tuesday in March in the East.  You're looking at 30+ lifts and well over 1,000 acres.  

Even Killington only operates their "full footprint" with the Skyeship and Sunrise Christmas week to last weekend of March.  And even then its a tough pill to swollow for corporate owner Powdr, hence them trying to close the Skyship I midweek their first year of ownership.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 27, 2020)

pauldotcom said:


> There is zero reason Vail will NOT buy it. This looks like a classic Vail move - sweep in on the cheep, connect them up, and new mega-resort (for New England lol). It would most likely pan out to a little more than 1,000 acres.



With a warming climate that would be an unnecessary snowmaking nightmare. Vail knows that it would be a bad investment.


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## Smellytele (Feb 27, 2020)

Someone needs to buy the lift and let the place die in peace. There is no draw to the place from everything I have heard.


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## ss20 (Feb 27, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Someone needs to buy the lift and let the place die in peace. There is no draw to the place from everything I have heard.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Tell that to the half dozen or so owners of Haystack in the past.  IIRC the place has closed at least once every decade since its inception (someone fact-check me on that).


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## triguy914 (Mar 8, 2020)

x10003q said:


> Vail would go bankrupt due to Act 250 trying to do a Haystack-Mt Snow connection.



It will never get connected because of the wildlife and land ownership issues. Pretty sure much of this area is being bought up or licensed(for lack of a better word) as Backcountry skiing/ MTB for the SOVTA - http://www.sovta.org/winter/


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## jaytrem (Mar 9, 2020)

triguy914 said:


> It will never get connected because of the wildlife and land ownership issues. Pretty sure much of this area is being bought up or licensed(for lack of a better word) as Backcountry skiing/ MTB for the SOVTA - http://www.sovta.org/winter/



I don't think land ownership would be an issue anymore.  The USFS is now in possession of everything needed.  Good luck getting the permits though.  The USFS did at one time had the area in between designated for ski area expansion.  And it's such a tiny plot of land compared to the giant area of wilderness on the other side of the ridge.  Only way I could see it happening is if Vail had something more valuable to trade.  I'd be shocked if they pulled it off though.

I did notice it looked like the ridge trail had a lot of track on it this weekend.  Wonder if the majority are heading to Haystack or dropping off the ridge?


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## Vaughn (Mar 9, 2020)

We drove around the corner from Magic to look at Timber Ridge / Mt Glebe last week. I did not know that someone not only bought the property but that he is maintaining it as a private hill for friends and family mostly, but also hosting some races. All serviced by snowmobiles instead of lifts. The trails you can see from the bottom were clear of brush and clearly had been groomed a bit. 

I could see something like that happening with Haystack if someone rich enough wants to. No idea how the insurance works for a non-profit, private ski hill though. I guess everyone must need to sign

The info on NELSAP is pretty old but it would appear to be correct - http://www.nelsap.org/vt/timber.html


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## 2Planker (Mar 9, 2020)

Vaughn said:


> We drove around the corner from Magic to look at Timber Ridge / Mt Glebe last week. I did not know that someone not only bought the property but that he is maintaining it as a private hill for friends and family mostly, but also hosting some races. All serviced by snowmobiles instead of lifts. The trails you can see from the bottom were clear of brush and clearly had been groomed a bit.
> 
> I could see something like that happening with Haystack if someone rich enough wants to. No idea how the insurance works for a non-profit, private ski hill though. I guess everyone must need to sign
> 
> The info on NELSAP is pretty old but it would appear to be correct - http://www.nelsap.org/vt/timber.html




 Loved that places in the 80's
Got my 77 Celica pushed out of a ditch there by Paul Newman & Bob Sharp.
Nice guys out walkin their dogs....

The place was actually on some Cabin Builders type show when they rebuilt the shack up top 5-10 years ago


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## Pez (Mar 9, 2020)

I have two super 8 reels of footage from the timber ridge side that were shot in maybe 88 or 89. I transferred them to VHS back then.  I’ve lost 1 of the reels and the VHS is MIA. 

Hopefully spring cleaning will help turn them up.  


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## Glenn (Mar 10, 2020)

2Planker said:


> Loved that places in the 80's
> Got my 77 Celica pushed out of a ditch there by Paul Newman & Bob Sharp.
> Nice guys out walkin their dogs....
> 
> The place was actually on some Cabin Builders type show when they rebuilt the shack up top 5-10 years ago



That's cool! Auto racing legends...


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 10, 2020)

weren't the bids due Monday for this place?  Be curious to see who ends up with what from there


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## skithetrees (Mar 10, 2020)

2Planker said:


> The place was actually on some Cabin Builders type show when they rebuilt the shack up top 5-10 years ago



Yes, that is the owner. His son was a professional snowboarder and trained at timber side. They actually hosted some events there a while ago. He also owns Dostals at Magic and is pretty involved in the area.


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## urungus (Mar 10, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> weren't the bids due Monday for this place?  Be curious to see who ends up with what from there



Bids are due Monday March 16, I still have 1 week to win the Powerball


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 10, 2020)

oh my bad


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## icecoast1 (Mar 17, 2020)

https://www.reformer.com/stories/citing-pandemic-hermitage-founder-seeks-to-delay-auction,600149

Jim Barnes trying to capitalize on a global pandemic


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## drjeff (Mar 20, 2020)

My local Mount Snow ski shop owner just posted on his FB page that the group that won the bidding process was the group made of of Hermitage Club members.

Haven't seen the official announcement yet to verify this, however he's not the type of person who would post something like this unless he was sure of it.....


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 20, 2020)

interesting...  seems like more of the same as it ever was


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## cdskier (Mar 20, 2020)

drjeff said:


> My local Mount Snow ski shop owner just posted on his FB page that the group that won the bidding process was the group made of of Hermitage Club members.
> 
> Haven't seen the official announcement yet to verify this, however he's not the type of person who would post something like this unless he was sure of it.....



https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/member-group-wins-hermitage-with-8m-bid,600386


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## drjeff (Mar 20, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> interesting...  seems like more of the same as it ever was


I guess with Jim Barnes out of the picture, it *could* be different..... Only time will tell

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## icecoast1 (Mar 20, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I guess with Jim Barnes out of the picture, it *could* be different..... Only time will tell
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



Earlier articles mentioned them wanting to operate it in a different way, mainly just the ski area vs owning half the town like Barnes.  But as you said we will see


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## mikec142 (Mar 20, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> interesting...  seems like more of the same as it ever was



Yep.  As much as I would like any ski are to survive, this won't end well.  

I had a friend who worked there a few years back so we got to ski there over Christmas one year.  Stayed at one of the Inn's and had dinner at another one of the Inn's.  Rooms were nice, food was good.  Ski facilities were gorgeous.  Ski terrain was fine.  The harder section wasn't open yet.

But here's the thing...I just don't see how anyone can make the economics work.  They don't need the Inn's so I'd sell them for whatever I could get right away.  I'm not sure where the airport falls in this mix, but sell that thing too.  Even though the idea of the golf course is a good one, it's just expensive to maintain (at least make it public).  Bottom line, I can't see how this works, even if members are willing to pay double or triple dues.


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## Method9455 (Mar 20, 2020)

Anything is better than NELSAP. I think it's possible to run it successfully as a private club if they're very careful about expenses.


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## jaytrem (Mar 20, 2020)

Well they certainly got a lot of stuff for 8 million.  Big head start compared to what Barnes had to build up.  Hope they can make a go of it.


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## tumbler (Mar 20, 2020)

The timing of this probably could not be worse for them as their portfolio's have shrank with the market nosedive.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2020)

tumbler said:


> The timing of this probably could not be worse for them as their portfolio's have shrank with the market nosedive.



Agreed.


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## FBGM (Mar 20, 2020)

Anyone know if past management has stayed around? Looking for new management?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 20, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Anyone know if past management has stayed around? Looking for new management?



Sounds like a group of former members have bought it for just over $8 million.  So for the time being it remains.

https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9525-former-hermitage-club-sold-at-auction

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## WWF-VT (Mar 20, 2020)

Who really gives a shit about a ski area that failed multiple times and thought that being a private mountain with a ridiculous and unsustainable business model was the future? Stick a fork in it - it's done. If the former members have enough money to spend  $8M to  buy this place then they deserve to lose it all on the next bankruptcy.


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## JimG. (Mar 20, 2020)

It's definitely true!

Fools and their money are easily parted.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 20, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It's definitely true!
> 
> Fools and their money are easily parted.



Exactly why there isn't any toilet paper!  

:lol::lol::lol:


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## Glenn (Mar 21, 2020)

Read this in the actual newspaper this morning; $8,060,000 with about 150 members involved. So roughly $50k+ per individual for an investment. The article indicated they would sell off some of the assets. I'm going to guess that's a few of the Inns in Dover and Willmington that were part of the deal. Sure, the timing isn't great. But at least it's a group of people who have some ties/vested interest in the local community.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2020)

Glenn said:


> Read this in the actual newspaper this morning; $8,060,000 with about 150 members involved. So roughly $50k+ per individual for an investment. The article indicated they would sell off some of the assets. I'm going to guess that's a few of the Inns in Dover and Willmington that were part of the deal. Sure, the timing isn't great. But at least it's a group of people who have some ties/vested interest in the local community.



If you own one of those houses, it’s a small price to pay to maintain the value of your investment.


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## tumbler (Mar 21, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Anyone know if past management has stayed around? Looking for new management?



You looking for a job?


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## drjeff (Mar 21, 2020)

Glenn said:


> Read this in the actual newspaper this morning; $8,060,000 with about 150 members involved. So roughly $50k+ per individual for an investment. The article indicated they would sell off some of the assets. I'm going to guess that's a few of the Inns in Dover and Willmington that were part of the deal. Sure, the timing isn't great. But at least it's a group of people who have some ties/vested interest in the local community.


A few of the inns that were originally bought up 5 or so years ago have already had their ownership transferred as part of a settlement, to select members who heavily invested in the club as it was starting up.

For example, one of the inns on Tannery Road (I forgot what it's name was when it was in operation) was awarded as part of a settlement to one of the members (who wouldn't surprise me if he is one of the members who spearheaded the organization of the group that won the bidding process), around a year or so ago. He is now leasing that Inn to Mount Snow Academy, who is using it for boarding of their younger age group live in athlete's (or atleast they were boarding them there up until about 10 days ago when the order to send everyone home was put out by the Academy)

So while there's certainly still a bunch of properties as part of the deal, it's not quite as many as it was at times in the past.

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## Glenn (Mar 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> A few of the inns that were originally bought up 5 or so years ago have already had their ownership transferred as part of a settlement, to select members who heavily invested in the club as it was starting up.
> 
> For example, one of the inns on Tannery Road (I forgot what it's name was when it was in operation) was awarded as part of a settlement to one of the members (who wouldn't surprise me if he is one of the members who spearheaded the organization of the group that won the bidding process), around a year or so ago. He is now leasing that Inn to Mount Snow Academy, who is using it for boarding of their younger age group live in athlete's (or atleast they were boarding them there up until about 10 days ago when the order to send everyone home was put out by the Academy)
> 
> ...



Thanks Jeff! A few years back, it seemed like most of the Inns had some type of ties to the Hermitage.


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## FBGM (Mar 22, 2020)

tumbler said:


> You looking for a job?



Just assuming all old management is out the door - time for some new blood with a new start. I’ve always liked the private ski area deal


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

FBGM said:


> Just assuming all old management is out the door - time for some new blood with a new start. I’ve always liked the private ski area deal



Nobody was left as it was with the reciever running things.  Thankfully the judge stopped any chance of Barnes taking back control


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## sull1102 (Mar 22, 2020)

So the new owners have no debt beyond the purchase price and have no one hunting them down for money?


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## icecoast1 (Mar 22, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> So the new owners have no debt beyond the purchase price and have no one hunting them down for money?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Yes but many that Barnes owed money to probably wont see any money out of this deal so it will be interesting to see if they are willing to wipe the slate clean and work with new ownership


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## VTKilarney (Mar 22, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Yes but many that Barnes owed money to probably wont see any money out of this deal so it will be interesting to see if they are willing to wipe the slate clean and work with new ownership



I don’t see any offering more money, so it’s not as if they have a choice.


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## Method9455 (Mar 24, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Yes but many that Barnes owed money to probably wont see any money out of this deal so it will be interesting to see if they are willing to wipe the slate clean and work with new ownership



That's pretty much how bankruptcy works. Several of family members own small businesses and they have been screwed by large customers going bankrupt in the past, unless you are truly the only vendor for a critical service in the area you have little if any leverage.


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## sull1102 (Mar 25, 2020)

It's a pretty good deal for a turn key operation with all new infrastructure. Upfront they'll need a new snow gun fleet and I think a couple groomers as well, but long term the lifts are all good for a decade and then some and the base lodge is stunning. Also helps if the investors are just looking to have the mountain open and not much else.


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## tumbler (Mar 25, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> It's a pretty good deal for a turn key operation with all new infrastructure. Upfront they'll need a new snow gun fleet and I think a couple groomers as well, but long term the lifts are all good for a decade and then some and the base lodge is stunning. Also helps if the investors are just looking to have the mountain open and not much else.



I would think they would be looking to sub out the mountain operations so they don't have to be dealing with all the decisions, etc.  Just negotiate a good deal with Boyne or heck even Vail to run the place and just write a check.  With the way Vail is going they might be happy for more income.


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## drjeff (May 13, 2020)

And the group of prior members that prevailed in the auction closed on the deal today..

https://www.dvalnews.com/news/club-members-close-hermitage-deal


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## Kevin Schultz (May 25, 2020)

This article mentions that Berkshire East folks were contracted to help run ops at Haystack, at least for the time being.

https://www.reformer.com/stories/hermitage-sale-closes-members-look-ahead,604585


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## sull1102 (Aug 5, 2020)

Fairly big news, the Hayfever lift is being removed and sent down to Bousquet. I’m surprised by this seeing as you now don’t have direct access to that mid mountain house and there’s no fixed grip out of the base area. 


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## icecoast1 (Aug 5, 2020)

sull1102 said:


> Fairly big news, the Hayfever lift is being removed and sent down to Bousquet. I’m surprised by this seeing as you now don’t have direct access to that mid mountain house and there’s no fixed grip out of the base area.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone





That's not really a huge loss, after the new barnstormer lift went up, that chair ran about as much as the old black chair at magic, virtually never.   That mid mountain area is easily accessible from the summit, if they even decide to operate it this winter.    Not to mention, it looks like the lift was going to need a lot of work, probably a wise decision to unload it given their cash flow and operating plan


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## Cobbold (Aug 5, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> That's not really a huge loss, after the new barnstormer lift went up, that chair ran about as much as the old black chair at magic, virtually never.   That mid mountain area is easily accessible from the summit, if they even decide to operate it this winter.    Not to mention, it looks like the lift was going to need a lot of work, probably a wise decision to unload it given their cash flow and operating plan



Why does the Hayfever lift need major work?

It’s interesting to see how the “new” Bousquet does not seem press savvy never any updates about what they are doing, the green lift is down, no news, the new lift lift line is staked out, no news, chairs are off the yellow chair, no news.  Would think they would post these developments on their website but nada


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## ScottySkis (Aug 5, 2020)

It now owned by Catamount only ski area in both NY and mass
Their website in past was never updated to
 Think it the owners are old school don't realize now days impact of updates on social media type pages and customer be my guess.

Be careful about using special herb there.
Lol

It’s interesting to see how the “new” Bousquet does not seem press savvy never any updates about what they are doing, the green lift is down, no news, the new lift lift line is staked out, no news, chairs are off the yellow chair, no news.  Would think they would post these developments on their website but nada[/QUOTE]


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## Cobbold (Aug 6, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> It now owned by Catamount only ski area in both NY and mass
> Their website in past was never updated to
> Think it the owners are old school don't realize now days impact of updates on social media type pages and customer be my guess.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]



Scotty, the Berkshire East folks are starting to build a regional powerhouse, they own and run Berkshire east and catamount, they will run Bousquet, are they running haystack or just providing guidance?  Will the Schaefers with milltown buy any additional ski areas?

Interesting times Ahead


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## machski (Aug 6, 2020)

Scotty, the Berkshire East folks are starting to build a regional powerhouse, they own and run Berkshire east and catamount, they will run Bousquet, are they running haystack or just providing guidance?  Will the Schaefers with milltown buy any additional ski areas?

Interesting times Ahead[/QUOTE]They are just providing Hermitage advising, not running it.  Agree that lift for Hermitage was excessive and unnecessary.  Selling it raises some cash for other things that probably need to be addressed.  They did sell off some snow guns in earlier proceedings before the group of owners bought the balance of the operation.

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## sull1102 (Aug 8, 2020)

https://www.benningtonbanner.com/stories/hermitage-prepares-for-new-future,610725


Apparently they also sold off the golf course, one of the inns, and are in the process of selling off the Hermitage Inn itself as well. They’re looking to focus on skiing and nothing but. Should be interesting to see what happens to the lift that goes to the back of the Hermitage Inn depending on who buys it.


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## Newpylong (Aug 8, 2020)

The lift will stay and they'll be an operating agreement in place for it as well as the run down to the Inn.


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## crystalmountainskier (Aug 8, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> The lift will stay and they'll be an operating agreement in place for it as well as the run down to the Inn.



Wonder if that means guests of the Inn will be able to buy a lift ticket and ski the Club.


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## urungus (Aug 8, 2020)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Wonder if that means guests of the Inn will be able to buy a lift ticket and ski the Club.



Hope so.  Never got around to doing this before the implosion, and would like to check Haystack off my list.


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