# Belleayre to be part of ORDA?



## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 1, 2011)

I read this on nyskiblog.com this morning. 

http://pressrepublican.com/0100_news/x2142724374/ORDA-may-gain-Belleayre-Ski-Resort


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## RootDKJ (Jun 1, 2011)

Is this a good move for the skier?


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## 4aprice (Jun 1, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Is this a good move for the skier?



Might be if they offer a pass good at all 3.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## dmc (Jun 1, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Is this a good move for the skier?



How about the taxpayer?


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## RootDKJ (Jun 1, 2011)

dmc said:


> How about the taxpayer?


Ah taxes...

I hear ya, but I'm unfortunate enough to pay dirty jerzy taxes, most of which gets wasted anyway.


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## mondeo (Jun 1, 2011)

Won't somebody please think of the children!?


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## catskills (Jun 1, 2011)

Not good for Belleayre.  Belleayre is in competition with Gore.  You can see from this Gore Unit Management plan on page 2-10 that almost half  of Gores Skier visitors come from the Hudson River Valley and points south.   This means Gore competes with Belleayre  for many of the same skier visitors. 

Will Belleayre get that new lodge that was going to built a few years ago?  Probably not.

From Gore Unit management plan, Gore skier visitors by zip code pie chart:

03% - Hudson Valley
10% - Long Island
04%- Mid Atlantic
13%- New Jersey
10% - New York City
03% - Pennsylvania
03% - Connecticut
-----------------------------
46% - Skiers that drive past Belleayre to get to Gore

It would be better if Belleayre was managed by NY State Parks, which is the same agency that runs Jones Beach on Long Island.   The NY State Parks are run to break even without costing the tax payers any money.


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## ta&idaho (Jun 1, 2011)

This seems to make a lot of sense.  There is no reason to have two different agencies running ski resorts for New York State, ORDA seems to do a better job than DEC, and the combination pass options would be really attractive, especially to the skiers who come from the NYC area.


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## dmc (Jun 1, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Ah taxes...
> 
> I hear ya, but I'm unfortunate enough to pay dirty jerzy taxes, most of which gets wasted anyway.



You worry about your state taxes... I'll worry about mine..  
I really don't want to add any more to NY spending..  I'd rather have teachers right now then a ski area changing hands to *another* govt agency...


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## mondeo (Jun 1, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> Ah taxes...
> 
> I hear ya, but I'm unfortunate enough to pay dirty jerzy *taxes, most of which gets wasted anyway*.


Doesn't that go without saying, anywhere?


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## mondeo (Jun 1, 2011)

dmc said:


> You worry about your state taxes... I'll worry about mine..
> I really don't want to add any more to NY spending.. I'd rather have teachers right now then a ski area changing hands to *another* govt agency...


Could do without both. NYS DOE is attrociously inefficient, their answer to any problem is to throw more money at it. There were multiple teachers in my H.S. that were teaching 2-3 classes. The physics teacher had a 20 person AP Physics class and a 10 person regents physics class. 30 students total.

And then there were the Language Arts teachers (2nd order tangent - how is it that there are 4 years of required L.A., but music and visual arts are traditional budget cuts?,) that showed 2 movies for every book, used the same lesson plans year after year, and the majority of grading was done with electronically scanned multiple choice tests.

Overall, I'd say about half of my teachers got away with working 25 hours per week for 9 months of the year. Despite the screaming of the teacher's unions, there could be a lot more done with a lot less.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 1, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> This seems to make a lot of sense.  There is no reason to have two different agencies running ski resorts for New York State, ORDA seems to do a better job than DEC, and the combination pass options would be really attractive, *especially to the skiers who come from the NYC area*.



I agree, I wonder how it would effect those of us who are upstate skiers.



dmc said:


> You worry about your state taxes... I'll worry about mine..
> I really don't want to add any more to NY spending..  I'd rather have teachers right now then a ski area changing hands to *another* govt agency...



Doesn’t consolidation usually lead to financial savings?


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## threecy (Jun 1, 2011)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Doesn’t consolidation usually lead to financial savings?



In government, not necessarily


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## ta&idaho (Jun 1, 2011)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Doesn’t consolidation usually lead to financial savings?



I imagine this consolidation could generate both cost savings (eliminating some redundancies, greater purchasing power, better management practices) and revenue increases (I'm guessing higher prices at Belleayre; perhaps the opportunity to attract more skiers to all three resorts with combo pass options).


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## mondeo (Jun 1, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> I imagine this consolidation could generate both cost savings (eliminating some redundancies, greater purchasing power, better management practices) and revenue increases (I'm guessing higher prices at Belleayre; perhaps the opportunity to attract more skiers to all three resorts with combo pass options).


But then the bureaucracy will need to expand to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.


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## x10003q (Jun 1, 2011)

This will be a bummer for Belleayre and Belleayre skiers. Hunter, Windham, and Plattekill will be happy. ORDA is all about Lake Placid and the LP venues (bobsled run, ski jumping facilty, convention center, Whiteface). Any money that Belleayre might make will go to support LP.

For me Belleayre and Gore do not compete. All of my day trips are to the Catskills and my overnight/weekend skiing is to Gore/WF. I actually do not ski that often at Belleayre. I usually hit Plattekill on the weekends and Hunter midweek.


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## RootDKJ (Jun 1, 2011)

dmc said:


> You worry about your state taxes... I'll worry about mine..
> I really don't want to add any more to NY spending..  I'd rather have teachers right now then a ski area changing hands to *another* govt agency...


:argue::beer:



mondeo said:


> Doesn't that go without saying, anywhere?


Usually that's the case.  

I've never skied Gore.  At 4+ hours, it's not in day trip range.  A Belle/Gore/Whiteface pass option does interest me though.


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## ta&idaho (Jun 1, 2011)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I agree, I wonder how it would effect those of us who are upstate skiers.



I'm guessing you'd see an increase in skier visits, but most of that increase would come from season passholders who would presumably be relatively responsible stakeholders.  You might also see a small increase in price for a combination pass (although ORDA might decide also to offer single-resort passes at a lower price).


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## dmc (Jun 1, 2011)

x10003q said:


> I actually do not ski that often at Belleayre. I usually hit Plattekill on the weekends and Hunter midweek.



Selling out to ORDA won't make the terrain any more interesting...


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## x10003q (Jun 1, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> I'm guessing you'd see an increase in skier visits, but most of that increase would come from season passholders who would presumably be relatively responsible stakeholders.  You might also see a small increase in price for a combination pass (although ORDA might decide also to offer single-resort passes at a lower price).



ORDA offers for Gore only a midweek non-holiday for $399. (will go up to $449 June21). ORDA offered a WF only non-holiday incl weekends for $419 until May 17. This is no longer available. You can see a little bit of the favored status WF has in this pass. For another $20 more than the Gore midweek only pass you could have had all non-holiday weekends at WF. That is an amazing deal not available to Gore only skiers.


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## x10003q (Jun 1, 2011)

dmc said:


> Selling out to ORDA won't make the terrain any more interesting...



I agree. 

That is why I do not ski Belleayre very often. It is difficult to pass up the $10 tickets that Belleayre sometimes offers. I would think ORDA would eliminate those type of discounts at Belleayre.


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## ta&idaho (Jun 1, 2011)

dmc said:


> Selling out to ORDA won't make the terrain any more interesting...



True, but the option to ski Gore and Whiteface on a single season pass would make day trips to Belleayre tolerable.

I'd like to see combo passes for each Catskills mountain:

GO-GO GOVERNMENT GLADES
Belleayre-Gore-Whiteface

BULLDOZED, BUMPED UP, and BLACKED OUT
Hunter-Killington

HEATED LEATHER SEATS TO CORDUROY CRUISERS
Windham-Stratton

ALL SKIS ARE ROCK SKIS
Plattekill-Magic-MRG


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 1, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> I'm guessing you'd see an increase in skier visits, but most of that increase would come from season passholders who would presumably be relatively responsible stakeholders.  You might also see a small increase in price for a combination pass (although ORDA might decide also to offer single-resort passes at a lower price).



I hate agreeing with people on forums and this is the second time for you on this thread. :lol: I see alot of down staters buying a combo pass for day trips to Bell and weekend and vacations to WF or Gore. 

I can also see how it could hurt the other Catskills ski areas. Someone who might perfer one of the other areas if pass options remained the same might be enticed to go with a Bell/Gore/WF pass. They would still have a Catskill day option with destination options all on the same pass.

We’ve had several threads about Bell and ORDA over the years and I remember in one of them Jim G. (mod and big Hunter guy) said he would have to think about it if such a pass where offered even though he preferred Hunter’s terrain by far.


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## RootDKJ (Jun 1, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> True, but the option to ski Gore and Whiteface on a single season pass would make day trips to Belleayre tolerable.
> 
> I'd like to see combo passes for each Catskills mountain:
> 
> ...


*like*


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2011)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I can also see how it could hurt the other Catskills ski areas. Someone who might perfer one of the other areas if pass options remained the same might be enticed to go with a Bell/Gore/WF pass. They would still have a Catskill day option with destination options all on the same pass.
> 
> We’ve had several threads about Bell and ORDA over the years and I remember in one of them Jim G. (mod and big Hunter guy) said he would have to think about it if such a pass where offered even though he preferred Hunter’s terrain by far.



I bet there are Boston area skiers who choose Boyne passes for similar reasons.  They might prefer Cannon over Loon, but Loon gives an easy day trip option + excellent destination options in Sunday River and Sugarloaf with that Boyne pass.


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## campgottagopee (Jun 1, 2011)

Makes sense to me.

Let ORDA run the ski hills and DEC make sure I get my doe tags.


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## catskills (Jun 1, 2011)

Prices last year for 1 day weekend lift ticket:
$55 - Belleayre
$66 - Gore
$77 - Whiteface

Belleayre being part of ORDA would probably mean higher prices at Belleayre.  Higher prices at Belleayre would probably result in higher prices at Hunter, Windham and Plattekill.  This would equate to less skier/rider visits in the Catskills, which may result in less sales tax and hotel taxes collected off the mountains :blink:  This could result in less teachers and higher property taxes in the Catskills.


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## x10003q (Jun 1, 2011)

catskills said:


> Prices last year for 1 day weekend lift ticket:
> $55 - Belleayre
> $66 - Gore
> $77 - Whiteface
> ...



This is why I mentioned in my original post that Hunter, Windham, and Plattekill will be happy. 

Here are the 2010-2011 1 day prices from the 3 web sites:

*$54 Belleayre holiday/weekend*
$45 Belleayre midweek
$66 Gore midweek
*$73 Gore non holiday weekend
$77 Gore Holiday*
$77 WF non holiday 
*$82 WF holiday*


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## catskillman (Jun 1, 2011)

This consolidation will have an impact on support positions at Bell.  Their marketing department will certainily be impacted as that can easily be absorbed.  ORDA will have more power now to squezze printers, newspapers & mags, radio etc. for better rates.

Will still need the same amount of lifties, bartenders and ticket sellers however.


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## thinnmann (Jun 1, 2011)

Add my vote to being totally against this.  Prices will probably go up before the snow comes down.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2011)

Curious why prices would go up if one state agency ran it instead of another?


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## RootDKJ (Jun 1, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Curious why prices would go up if one state agency ran it instead of another?


Government efficiency.  :blink:


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## catskills (Jun 1, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> Curious why prices would go up if one state agency ran it instead of another?


Lift tickets go up in the Catskills than more folks will go to Lake Placid to ski Whiteface.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 1, 2011)

catskills said:


> Lift tickets go up in the Catskills than more folks will go to Lake Placid to ski Whiteface.



That wasn't my question.  Just wondering why one agency would charge a different price than another.


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## x10003q (Jun 1, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> That wasn't my question.  Just wondering why one agency would charge a different price than another.



He did answer the question. ORDA is all about Lake Placid. If prices go up at Belleayre (and the Catskills) the mid Hudson sliders might be enticed to head north to WF and Lake Placid.


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## tjf67 (Jun 1, 2011)

catskills said:


> Prices last year for 1 day weekend lift ticket:
> $55 - Belleayre
> $66 - Gore
> $77 - Whiteface
> ...



Well this is quite a sky is falling scenario.  I am sure there is some sort of power play going on in Albany trying to get this done.  Orda is in the ski and tourism business. Orda employees are on a whole differant pay scale.  Seems like it is a good idea to me.


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## AdironRider (Jun 1, 2011)

Im all for ORDA taking over Bell. Seems logical and clearly the DOE sucks at running the place. 

That pricing structure is right in line with how I perceive the three mountains value. Whiteface at the top, Gore in the middle, and Bell at the bottom. Im pretty sure thats howd theyd rank in public opinion as well across all aspects, from terrain to actual costs to ski there.

Combo pass is a wild card, Im not that confident it wont have some effect, but I do think the overall effect of this takeover is going to be relatively small in terms of skier visits overall to NY ski resorts and their respective "piece of the pie".


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## tjf67 (Jun 1, 2011)

AdironRider said:


> Im all for ORDA taking over Bell. Seems logical and clearly the DOE sucks at running the place.
> 
> That pricing structure is right in line with how I perceive the three mountains value. Whiteface at the top, Gore in the middle, and Bell at the bottom. Im pretty sure thats howd theyd rank in public opinion as well across all aspects, from terrain to actual costs to ski there.
> 
> Combo pass is a wild card, Im not that confident it wont have some effect, but I do think the overall effect of this takeover is going to be relatively small in terms of skier visits overall to NY ski resorts and their respective "piece of the pie".




and a savings for the tax payers.  Hard times hard decisions.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 1, 2011)

When I was in growing up in Bolton Landing I thought our Gore pass was good at all state ski hills. early 60's to 69 when I moved to Vermont. We did ski Whiteface a few times but Bell was too far south. I guess that changed.


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## Harvey (Jun 1, 2011)

Laszlo (Plattekill) won't be happy until Belle is privatized, which obviously won't happen.

Personally a three way ORDA pass wouldn't affect my Catskill skiing decisions at all, and I'll be a Gore/WF passholder until the end of time.  When I day trip the Cats, I'll ski the hill that makes the most sense based on a variety of factors.  So much in our life is invested in skiing, that ticket price on any given day isn't a deciding factor. Not that 50 or 70 bucks isn't real money, but my 30 or 35 days a year are priceless.

FWIW if Bell is really giving away large amounts of free tickets, and ORDA stops it - that's a good thing IMO. Gov't shouldn't undercut private enterprise.


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## legalskier (Jun 1, 2011)

dmc said:


> Selling out to ORDA won't make the terrain any more interesting...



Yes, Hunter's in bounds terrain rocks but off piste at Belleayre is as much fun as I've ever had in the 'Cats.




catskills said:


> Higher prices at Belleayre would probably result in higher prices at Hunter, Windham and Plattekill.  This would equate to less skier/rider visits in the Catskills



Platekill would benefit because going from super cheap to fairly cheap is still cheap, drawing more visits relative to the other three. Sometimes I feel guilty about paying so little for such terrific terrain.


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## riverc0il (Jun 2, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> Laszlo (Plattekill) won't be happy until Belle is privatized, which obviously won't happen.


This issue came up in the Cannon lease thread. If a so called poorly managed state run area is privatized, wouldn't that theoretically hurt other ski areas? A private business that is very bottom line driven (especially in light of trying to generate revenue for guaranteed payments to the state) would likely increase their own skier visits through better marketing and services, thereby hurting nearby competitors due to siphoning off their skier visits.


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## tjf67 (Jun 2, 2011)

ski_resort_observer said:


> When I was in growing up in Bolton Landing I thought our Gore pass was good at all state ski hills. early 60's to 69 when I moved to Vermont. We did ski Whiteface a few times but Bell was too far south. I guess that changed.



The DEC ran the hills up until ORDA was formed in the 80's.   They came into existance to manage the huge debt from the olympics.


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## Rambo (Jun 2, 2011)

I buy a seasons pass to Greek Peak in Central NY and they have a tie-in with ORDA's Whiteface and Gore... You show your Greek Peak seasons pass and you get 50% off the price of a daily lift ticket at Whiteface, which is GREAT. But you only get a 10% discount at Gore which stinks.


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## dmc (Jun 2, 2011)

legalskier said:


> Yes, Hunter's in bounds terrain rocks but off piste at Belleayre is as much fun as I've ever had in the 'Cats.



and that's the way we Hunter regulars like it...

In my best Jedi voice...
"This is not the trail you seek. there is no slack country at Hunter"


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## campgottagopee (Jun 2, 2011)

Rambo said:


> I buy a seasons pass to Greek Peak in Central NY and they have a tie-in with ORDA's Whiteface and Gore... You show your Greek Peak seasons pass and you get 50% off the price of a daily lift ticket at Whiteface, which is GREAT. But you only get a 10% discount at Gore which stinks.



I never got that either. Fine w/ me b/c I prefer WF anyway.


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## thinnmann (Jun 2, 2011)

Rambo said:


> I buy a seasons pass to Greek Peak in Central NY and they have a tie-in with ORDA's Whiteface and Gore... You show your Greek Peak seasons pass and you get 50% off the price of a daily lift ticket at Whiteface, which is GREAT. But you only get a 10% discount at Gore which stinks.



Wow!  A Belleayre Season Ticket has given me a big $10 discount at Gore and WF...  So it has been cheaper to pick up unused promo passes on eBay for those places.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Jun 2, 2011)

Here's a second article on the topic. 

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html

I also copied this one from nyskiblog.com. There's a good thread going on the possible ORDA takeover there too.

This part of the article really caught my attention:

_Should it assume operation of the ski center, ORDA would be running a facility whose operating costs have regularly exceeded revenues, sometimes by more than $1 million, according to budget information provided by DEC. In the winter of 2009-10, the most recent season for which data was available, Belleayre had $6.3 million in operating costs but collected only $5.2 million in revenue._


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## dmc (Jun 2, 2011)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> _Should it assume operation of the ski center, ORDA would be running a facility whose operating costs have regularly exceeded revenues, sometimes by more than $1 million, according to budget information provided by DEC. In the winter of 2009-10, the most recent season for which data was available, Belleayre had $6.3 million in operating costs but collected only $5.2 million in revenue._



Thats pretty much what I've been complaining about..
The remaining million comes out of my tax dollars..  that could be better spent on teachers..


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## Rambo (Jun 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> Thats pretty much what I've been complaining about..
> The remaining million comes out of my tax dollars..  that could be better spent on teachers..


So ORDA has to spend a fortune every year maintaining the bobsled/luge facilites, the speed skating oval and the multi-million dollar 90 and 60 meter ski jumps which the general public can't really use except for the public bobsled rides. It seems like the State money put into Bellayre does let the average joe blow skier an opportunity at affordable skiing. Just saying mayber taxpayer money should be eliminated from finacing bobsled/luge, speedskating, and ski jumping first before considering closing Belleayre.


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## x10003q (Jun 2, 2011)

Rambo said:


> So ORDA has to spend a fortune every year maintaining the bobsled/luge facilites, the speed skating oval and the multi-million dollar 90 and 60 meter ski jumps which the general public can't really use except for the public bobsled rides. It seems like the State money put into Bellayre does let the average joe blow skier an opportunity at affordable skiing. Just saying mayber taxpayer money should be eliminated from finacing bobsled/luge, speedskating, and ski jumping first before considering closing Belleayre.



Don't forget the $20 million convention center in the middle of Lake Placid. Who benefits from the convention center?


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## Rambo (Jun 2, 2011)

x10003q said:


> Don't forget the $20 million convention center in the middle of Lake Placid. Who benefits from the convention center?



Not sure about the 1980 Olympic arena/ice center... but I did notice the 1932 arena was mostly booked solid with youth hockey tournaments with large numbers of competitors and their families spending lots of money on lodging and meals from both Canada and the US.


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## x10003q (Jun 2, 2011)

Rambo said:


> Not sure about the 1980 Olympic arena/ice center... but I did notice the 1932 arena was mostly booked solid with youth hockey tournaments with large numbers of competitors and their families spending lots of money on lodging and meals from both Canada and the US.



The new $20million convention center was just completed. I was not talking about the hockey arena. Who benefits from lodging tie in?


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## tjf67 (Jun 2, 2011)

x10003q said:


> The new $20million convention center was just completed. I was not talking about the hockey arena. Who benefits from lodging tie in?



Obviously the local businesses surrounding those venues.  Is that a problem?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 2, 2011)

So does this mean that there will be an evil triangle of government owned and operated ski areas in New York as well ?


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## dmc (Jun 2, 2011)

Rambo said:


> So ORDA has to spend a fortune every year maintaining the bobsled/luge facilites, the speed skating oval and the multi-million dollar 90 and 60 meter ski jumps which the general public can't really use except for the public bobsled rides. It seems like the State money put into Bellayre does let the average joe blow skier an opportunity at affordable skiing. Just saying mayber taxpayer money should be eliminated from finacing bobsled/luge, speedskating, and ski jumping first before considering closing Belleayre.



I can't speak to the other places...  I don't know enough about how they work and cover their expenses.

I'm just saying - make a profit and cover expenses and it's all good..

I'd personally rather see teachers keep jobs then the "average joe blow skier" have a day of skiing..      Skiing is discretionary - education is not  .


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## snoseek (Jun 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> I'd personally rather see teachers keep jobs then the "average joe blow skier" have a day of skiing..      Skiing is discretionary - education is not  .



I can vouch for that having gone through NH public schools k-12:wink:


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## tjf67 (Jun 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> I can't speak to the other places...  I don't know enough about how they work and cover their expenses.
> 
> I'm just saying - make a profit and cover expenses and it's all good..
> 
> I'd personally rather see teachers keep jobs then the "average joe blow skier" have a day of skiing..      Skiing is discretionary - education is not  .



How bout taking away all the tax breakst private corp get for building in your community.  Same idea.  Teachers r not getting the shaft they r just being assimilated into what the private sector went through the past 20 years.  They the unions sell it to the public as the kids r getting hurt.  Meanwhile they tell there members not to teach that study hall after school cause its not in the contract.  Soap box over. Save a teacher reform the union.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2011)

dmc said:


> I can't speak to the other places...  I don't know enough about how they work and cover their expenses.
> 
> I'm just saying - make a profit and cover expenses and it's all good..
> 
> I'd personally rather see teachers keep jobs then the "average joe blow skier" have a day of skiing..      Skiing is discretionary - education is not  .



I understand what you're saying.  But at the same time, does Central Park in NYC make money? or any other park in the State of NY?  

That's just it, parks inherently cost tax payers money, they are an amenity that greatly improves quality of life.  Not everyone skis, but not everyone uses the beach at some random state park around the state either.  Do you privatize all parks?  That's the basis of the argument for the Cannon thread and the State of NH's budget shortfall.


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## tjf67 (Jun 2, 2011)

Rambo said:


> So ORDA has to spend a fortune every year maintaining the bobsled/luge facilites, the speed skating oval and the multi-million dollar 90 and 60 meter ski jumps which the general public can't really use except for the public bobsled rides. It seems like the State money put into Bellayre does let the average joe blow skier an opportunity at affordable skiing. Just saying mayber taxpayer money should be eliminated from finacing bobsled/luge, speedskating, and ski jumping first before considering closing Belleayre.



The public can use any of the venues you mentioned above.  Primarily though those venues r there to draw in world wide competitions.  They don't draw many spectators but all the competitors and coaches have to eat and sleep somewhere.   When orda took over the state was in a heap of shit with all the debt.  They formed orda, parked the debt and promoted the area and paid it off.  Lake Placid in one of a very few places that hosted the Olympics that has thrived since.  So back to your point ORDA and the visitors bureau have more than paid for themselves when you consider the economic impact.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 2, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> when you consider the economic impact.



that's the key right there

The balance sheet of State run parks including ski areas, maybe often show red, but they do generate a lot of black in ways that aren't always easy to measure.


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## ERJ-145CA (Jun 2, 2011)

I'll pay higher prices at Belleayre if I have to, as long as they still have the long season.  Belleayre is my early and late season mountain.  I count on it for late November and late March early April skiing.  If they shorten their season my season will end up being shorter.


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## Harvey (Jun 2, 2011)

riverc0il said:


> This issue came up in the Cannon lease thread. If a so called poorly managed state run area is privatized, wouldn't that theoretically hurt other ski areas? A private business that is very bottom line driven (especially in light of trying to generate revenue for guaranteed payments to the state) would likely increase their own skier visits through better marketing and services, thereby hurting nearby competitors due to siphoning off their skier visits.



I probably shouldn't speak for Laszlo, but ...

He feels that if Bell is loosing a million dollars a year* that is being subsidized by tax payers including him. And Bell is giving away quantities of free tickets - some estimates have this number as high as 10-15,000 a year. If this is so, then essentially taxpayer losses are being used to undercut private enterprise - Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. A private business over the long haul would have to break even over the long haul to survive.

*http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html


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## x10003q (Jun 2, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> Obviously the local businesses surrounding those venues.  Is that a problem?



ORDA Board Member Lussi owns the Crown Point Lake Placid. The new convention center is right next door attached to the 2 hockey arenas. The Crown Point advertises 30,000 sq ft of conference space. The new conv center has 90,000.

ORDA Board Member Weibrecht owns the Mirror Lake Inn which is about a 1/2 mile away. They do not have any conference space on site.

ORDA got all the money from NYS when Pataki was the gov. It was built when the conf business is very weak. LP is maybe 2 hours(in good weather) from the Burlington, Albany, and Montreal airports. It is not so easy to get to LP. 

I doubt the convention center will ever give back what it cost.


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## x10003q (Jun 2, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> I probably shouldn't speak for Laszlo, but ...
> 
> He feels that if Bell is loosing a million dollars a year* that is being subsidized by tax payers including him. And Bell is giving away quantities of free tickets - some estimates have this number as high as 10-15,000 a year. If this is so, then essentially taxpayer losses are being used to undercut private enterprise - Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. A private business over the long haul would have to break even over the long haul to survive.
> 
> *http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html



Instead of bitching, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham should try to change the rules that keep Belleayre public. As mentioned public parks do not make profits. Maybe we should close all the parks. Then we could pay even more teachers. 

Laszlo bought Plattekill with full knowledge of what Belleayre was doing. After 20 years he is still in business. If Plattekill didn't work for him he always has another option - sell it (to me).8)


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## catskills (Jun 3, 2011)

Belleayre stuff:

Belleayre is part of NY State Constituion from the 1940s when the people of NY state voted to create it in the first place.
Belleayre is an important economic engine that is critical to local Ulster and Delaware county government, businesses and employment.   Without Belleayre there would be businesses boarded up, foreclosures, higher unemployment, lost sales/hotel tax, and higher property taxes. 
Belleayre is not going away given its part of the NY State Constitution.
An amendment to the NY State Constitution to privatize Belleayre, which the voters would need to approve in November, is not going to happen.  Belleayre is an extremely small part of the entire NY State budget.  
Overlook lodge is a classic but I don't know how many years it has left. A replacement will not be built at mid mountain anywhere near Overlook lodge. 
A new lodge next to the lower Discovery lodge  was months away from breaking ground before Governor Spitzer resigned and NY state economy imploded. 
With a new lower lodge near Discovery lodge, a new fast high capacity lift was planned to be built to get customers up to the upper mountain in the morning and after lunch.  
A lift from Pine Hill to the top of Cathedral Brook would be almost 2000 vertical feet of some serious skiing and riding.


----------



## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I understand what you're saying.  But at the same time, does Central Park in NYC make money? or any other park in the State of NY?
> 
> That's just it, parks inherently cost tax payers money, they are an amenity that greatly improves quality of life.  Not everyone skis, but not everyone uses the beach at some random state park around the state either.  Do you privatize all parks?  That's the basis of the argument for the Cannon thread and the State of NH's budget shortfall.



Green spaces are a lot different from ski areas...  I really don't think they are the same things..   Cities would suck without parks..

Belleayre COULD turn a profit if they change some things..


----------



## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

x10003q said:


> Instead of bitching, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham should try to change the rules that keep Belleayre public. As mentioned public parks do not make profits. Maybe we should close all the parks. Then we could pay even more teachers.
> 
> Laszlo bought Plattekill with full knowledge of what Belleayre was doing. After 20 years he is still in business. If Plattekill didn't work for him he always has another option - sell it (to me).8)



Green spaces/parks and Ski areas are different things.. 

You are ridiculous thinking a park is the same as a ski area...  It's just a lame comparison...
A picnic with your kids in a green space isn't the same as a prepared mogul run.   Everyone can enjoy a park but only middle class people from NJ enjoy Belleayre...    You could live without it...


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## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

ERJ-145CA said:


> I'll pay higher prices at Belleayre if I have to, as long as they still have the long season.  Belleayre is my early and late season mountain.  I count on it for late November and late March early April skiing.  If they shorten their season my season will end up being shorter.



Your choice..


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## ts01 (Jun 3, 2011)

x10003q said:


> ...
> 
> Laszlo bought Plattekill with full knowledge of what Belleayre was doing. After 20 years he is still in business. If Plattekill didn't work for him he always has another option - sell it (to me).8)



And, what Belleayre is doing is teaching a ton of kids to ski. And adult learners like yours truly when I started bringing my kids back in their learning days.  And then we get hooked..

Ten years later, I've probably skied 15-20 days at Plattekill; stayed several weekends in that part of the Catskills; bought season passes for my kids a couple of seasons at Belleayre and bounced between B and P as conditions allowed; continue to ski Belleayre early and late season as well as a lot of midseason day trips; bought two Plattekill hats that I wear all summer and put Plattekill stickers on both my cars so I can talk up the mountain to friends and total strangers; brought seven or eight friends to Plattekill on daytrips when they hadn't even heard of it; taken two long weekend trips with the family to Gore; another 15-20 days at Whiteface with family and friends over weekends and holiday weeks; spent a summer vacation week in the High Peaks near Lake Placid; sent at least four families to Belleayre to teach their kids to ski; filled my cars with gas, spent on food and lodging all over the Catskills and Adirondacks; and hidden countless credit card statements from my wife so she couldn't see how much I was spending on this sport -- IN NEW YORK STATE.

If I recall correctly NYS has more ski areas than any other state. I may be obsessive - like most AZers == but there are plenty others with varying degrees of commitment who got going at Belleayre and keep going all over.  

So I'd say yes the taxpayers are getting value out of Belleayre and/or ORDA.  Belleayre is close enough to NYC, NJ, and Albany too I guess to attract a lot of noobs, the price is right, and the layout is great for learners.

And if there's a combo pass for Belleayre/Gore/Whiteface in the future, I'll be spending a lot less in the Berkshires and VT.


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## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> I probably shouldn't speak for Laszlo, but ...
> 
> He feels that if Bell is loosing a million dollars a year* that is being subsidized by tax payers including him. And Bell is giving away quantities of free tickets - some estimates have this number as high as 10-15,000 a year. If this is so, then essentially taxpayer losses are being used to undercut private enterprise - Plattekill, Hunter, and Windham. A private business over the long haul would have to break even over the long haul to survive.
> 
> *http://adirondackdailyenterprise.co...4/ORDA-may-take-over-Catskill-ski-resort.html



He's right.. 
I'm sick of paying for mini van loads from NJ to ski with my tax $$. 
I'm not paying taxes for middle class folks to rip bumps and ski glades...  It's just a friggin waste of my money that could be used for better things..

I know I suck for saying this... But it's the way I feel..


----------



## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

ts01 said:


> So I'd say yes the taxpayers are getting value out of Belleayre and/or ORDA.  Belleayre is close enough to NYC, NJ, and Albany too I guess to attract a lot of noobs, the price is right, and the layout is great for learners.



BS - no value...  People come up from NJ in the mini van all gassed up... Roll into Belleayre - ski for free - eat the packed lunch and go home..   No $$$ goes to the local economy..  And no tickets sold means no tax that goes into the economy..  I don't pay taxes to teach noobs from NJ to ski...

We need Bell to start contributing instead of sucking $ out of our tax base...


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## RootDKJ (Jun 3, 2011)

dmc said:


> BS - no value...  People come up from NJ in the mini van all gassed up... Roll into Belleayre - ski for free - eat the packed lunch and go home..   No $$$ goes to the local economy..  And no tickets sold means no tax that goes into the economy..  I don't pay taxes to teach noobs from NJ to ski...
> 
> We need Bell to start contributing instead of sucking $ out of our tax base...


Not everyone.  Anytime I'm in the Cats, I always stop by my favorite German place for a round or 4 and a good post-ski meal.

Then again, I ain't some noob in a minivvan.  :lol:

A Belle/Gore/WF combo pass is enticing enough for me to consider not getting a Blue pass for 12/13.  I'd have to give up some days due to the lack of night skiing & distance, and I'd miss the funny hijinks with the Blue Crew, but I'd seriously consider it.  With a pass like that, I'd also forgo any trips to VT.  The Whiteface crew seems like a good bunch of folks I'd like to rip with at some point.


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## catskills (Jun 3, 2011)

dmc said:


> We need Bell to start contributing instead of sucking $ out of our tax base...


If you look at the big picture Belleayre does contribute more than it takes.  Your example of* EVERY* NJ skier and rider that goes to Belleayre and doesn't  spend a dime in NY state is not realistic.


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## threecy (Jun 3, 2011)

catskills said:


> If you look at the big picture Belleayre does contribute more than it takes.



It must be wonderful to be Hunter or Scotch Valley (oops, RIP) and to have to compete against an area they are forced to subsidize.


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## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

catskills said:


> If you look at the big picture Belleayre does contribute more than it takes.  Your example of* EVERY* NJ skier and rider that goes to Belleayre and doesn't  spend a dime in NY state is not realistic.



OK - EVERY was bad... But you and I both know that people don't generally stop much to spend money locally.  

It's mostly pack lunch or eat at the lodge..  Get a free pass - why not spend $ on lunch
And why would someone from NJ buy our expensive gas?  That takes out a stop with a purchase for sure.  

I bet more people stop at the thruway rest stop than the 28 corridor..


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## catskills (Jun 3, 2011)

threecy said:


> It must be wonderful to be Hunter or Scotch Valley (oops, RIP) and to have to compete against an area they are forced to subsidize.


If Belleayre generates enough tax dollars within Ulster county from income taxes, sales taxes, mortgage taxes, and hotel taxes to more than make up the difference between Belleayre expenses and income, then how is Hunter subsidizing Belleayre?


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## catskills (Jun 3, 2011)

Freeman Newspaper: Group Calls for Due Diligence

PINE HILL – A report by the non-profit citizens’ group Catskill Heritage Alliance is calling for more due diligence, public scrutiny and transparency surrounding the possible transfer of the operation of the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in Pine Hill from the state Department of Environmental Conservation to a quasi-public, quasi-private state authority.

..................

“Our concern is that Belleayre is supposedly losing money and, if the problem with Belleayre is making it break even and creating a little capital revenue stream for improvements, based on our analysis, on the Catskill Watershed Corp. report, we didn’t see that an authority structure would help that situation,” he said.


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## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

http://www.catskillheritage.org/news.html



> Siegel shows that BMSC's losses can be eliminated by administrative changes that would not require transfer to an authority. The CWC's own analysis indicates that the ski center may need only an additional $4.40 to $6 per skier to break even. These are efficiencies BMSC could easily find without restructuring, using utility-type cost-of-service principles and without further cutting wages or employment.


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## threecy (Jun 3, 2011)

catskills said:


> If Belleayre generates enough tax dollars within Ulster county from income taxes, sales taxes, mortgage taxes, and hotel taxes to more than make up the difference between Belleayre expenses and income, then how is Hunter subsidizing Belleayre?



Belleayre pays income, sales, mortgage, and hotel taxes?!?


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2011)

threecy said:


> Belleayre pays income, sales, mortgage, and hotel taxes?!?



dude, put the tea down.  We know you'd love a country void of government, but lets be real.

Belleayre's presence creates all of those revenue streams.  

The people who work there or at businesses in the region all pay income taxes.

Sales tax is generated by the mountain and the local businesses.

Primary and second home owners and local businesses all pay mortgage/property taxes.

People who stay in the hotels while they ski there pay hotel taxes.


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## mondeo (Jun 3, 2011)

But would privatisation lead to a greater benefit to the economy? The people that are paying to ski there and spending money would still do it, those that come because of the free tickets, pack lunches, and gas up NJ either stay home or buy tickets, at Bell or elsewhere. If there's deemed to be a societal benefit to the cost of Bell, then a price needs to be put on it. The cost/benefit of Bell isn't going to be anywhere near, say Central Park, which is fairly cheap relative to the number of people it serves and the basic needs it fulfills.


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## threecy (Jun 3, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> *lets be real.*
> 
> Belleayre's presence creates all of those revenue streams.
> 
> ...



So in your reality, if the people of New York were to instead lease out the ski area, no one would ski there anymore and those revenues would dry up?


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## catskills (Jun 3, 2011)

threecy said:


> So in your reality, if the people of New York were to instead lease out the ski area, no one would ski there anymore and those revenues would dry up?


In my reality Belleayre is written into the NY State Constitution. The reality is that Belleayre will NEVER be privatized or leased out.  Its a waste of time talking about it.  It will never happen.  That is REALITY.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2011)

threecy said:


> So in your reality, if the people of New York were to instead lease out the ski area, no one would ski there anymore and those revenues would dry up?



No, I didn't say that at all.  

Just pointing out that all you like to focus on is the negative and completely disregard any positives of state run business.  You do the same thing with Cannon.  It's 100% politics with you, 100% of the time.


----------



## x10003q (Jun 3, 2011)

dmc said:


> He's right..
> I'm sick of paying for mini van loads from NJ to ski with my tax $$.
> I'm not paying taxes for middle class folks to rip bumps and ski glades...  It's just a friggin waste of my money that could be used for better things..



Actually while you think your taxes are paying for NJ skiers (all Belle skiers are from Jersey and only show up with free tickets :wink you might want to know that NYS has over 730 public authorities that are responsible for borrowing 94% of NYS current debt obligations. The current grand total is:
$214,619,548,408. NYS is ultimately responsible for this debt and the interest on the debt.
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/pubauth/data/pa_debt_june2010.pdf
This is all done without voter approval. There is a better chance your tax $$ are going to support this gigantic debt. Belle is small change in the massive debt that has been run up.


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## Harvey (Jun 3, 2011)

mondeo said:


> The cost/benefit of Bell isn't going to be anywhere near, say Central Park, which is fairly cheap relative to the number of people it serves and the basic needs it fulfills.



Not too drift this thread too much but which are you saying is cheaper?  The cost of Central Park is incredibly high.  How much revenue would it generate if it was class A office space? It's got to be billions.


----------



## dmc (Jun 3, 2011)

x10003q said:


> There is a better chance your tax $$ are going to support this gigantic debt. Belle is small change in the massive debt that has been run up.



We have to do something..  Start somewhere..   Like your guys making your Gov pay for the heli ride he just took to see his kid play baseball..  A drop in the bucket but a drop none the less.

Bell just needs to start making a profit and support itself and succeed! and prosper..   Thats all I really want..


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## tjf67 (Jun 3, 2011)

threecy said:


> So in your reality, if the people of New York were to instead lease out the ski area, no one would ski there anymore and those revenues would dry up?



That's not an option.  The question is can ORDA do the jon equal to or better than for less cost than the DEC.  I don't know but it seems like a real avenue for NYS to explore to become more efficient.


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## Rambo (Jun 3, 2011)

Where can all these FREE Belleayre lift tickets be found... in New Jersey somewhere?

I did hear that in the past, that a person could go to the New York State Fair and go to the DEC building and get a voucher for a complimentary Belleayre lift ticket.

Also one time I was at Belleayre at the end of the season and a guy in the parking lot sold me a voucher for a complimentary lift ticket which he said Belleayre representatives were giving out at some major Golf show/exhibition.


----------



## threecy (Jun 3, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> completely disregard any positives of *state run business*.



Absolutely.


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## threecy (Jun 3, 2011)

catskills said:


> In my reality Belleayre is written into the NY State Constitution.



It's an inalienable right?  There's no way to amend the NY state constitution?


----------



## RootDKJ (Jun 3, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> Not too drift this thread too much but which are you saying is cheaper?  The cost of Central Park is incredibly high.  How much revenue would it generate if it was class A office space? It's got to be billions.


$528,783,552,000


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## catskills (Jun 3, 2011)

threecy said:


> It's an inalienable right?  There's no way to amend the NY state constitution?


It is not an inalienable right.  I am just being realistic.  Belleayre is so small compared to all the other issues in NY State.   If the legislature put forth an amendment on Belleayre to be voted on in November, it would look foolish given all the other significantly more important economic issues the politicians need to be working on.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2011)

threecy said:


> Absolutely.



So,

Do you want to see NH get out of the liquor business to?  

Essentially, your general feeling is private business will always trump gov't business in tax revenue generation and providing better jobs with benefits for those who are employed by such businesses.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2011)

RootDKJ said:


> $528,783,552,000



$529 Billion dollars

and people are freaking over Belleyare losing a million a year?  :blink:


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## threecy (Jun 4, 2011)

catskills said:


> If the legislature put forth an amendment on Belleayre to be voted on in November, it would look foolish given all the other significantly more important economic issues the politicians need to be working on.



It absolutely would look foolish to most of the voters of New York - "we're basically bankrupt yet we're running a ski area?"


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## x10003q (Jun 4, 2011)

threecy said:


> It absolutely would look foolish to most of the voters of New York - "we're basically bankrupt yet we're running a ski area?"



If your company is headed down the road to bankrupcy chasing a good price for copy paper is not a good use of your time. It might be better to tackle the bigger problems.
The time it would take to change the NYS constitution is not worth the return and takes time away from way bigger financial problems.


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## catskills (Jun 4, 2011)

threecy said:


> It absolutely would look foolish to most of the voters of New York - "we're basically bankrupt yet we're running a ski area?"


In the 1940s when the voters in NY state decided to get into the ski business after World War II it did not look so foolish.  Times change. Views change. 

IMHO Americans National and State parks is our greatest asset.  I would NEVER want to privatize America's National and State parks.  I get the feeling you believe the government should not be running anything and we should privatize everything as much as possible. 

Just to let you know 70 percent of the fire departments in the USA are volunteer.  If you or a loved one have the misfortune to have a motor vehicle accident, there is good chance that the firemen that arrive on scene to cut you out of your motor vehicle with charged hose lines in the ready will be volunteer. There is also  a good chance that the EMTs on scene providing initial medical care to get you out of the vehicle and into the ambulance are also volunteers.  The is a perfect example of  socialism that seems to work well alongside of capitalism.


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## Harvey (Jun 4, 2011)

Rambo said:


> Where can all these FREE Belleayre lift tickets be found...



Some percentage were pushed out as buy one get one - so I guess technically that's 50% off.


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Jun 4, 2011)

Rambo said:


> Where can all these FREE Belleayre lift tickets be found... in New Jersey somewhere?



They litter the ground in Jersey, the DEC flies around in helicopters and drops them on the state, you can't miss them.


----------



## Rambo (Jun 4, 2011)

ERJ-145CA said:


> They litter the ground in Jersey, the DEC flies around in helicopters and drops them on the state, you can't miss them.



All the McDonald's burger joints in NJ have stacks of free Bell. lift tickets.


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## catskills (Jun 4, 2011)

Belleayre Coalition Endorses ORDA Move. Sees economic benefit for entire region. .  This surprised me.  :blink:  If I read the tea leaves, this sounds like the best and only deal Belleayre is going to get.


----------



## jaytrem (Jun 4, 2011)

Funny, I've skied both Hunter and Windham for free more times than I've skied Belleayre for free.  Used Descente Passport tickets for Hunter/Windham (on holidays) 5 times total.  Only skied Belleayre once for free on my birthday.


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## threecy (Jun 4, 2011)

catskills said:


> IMHO Americans National and State parks is our greatest asset.  I would NEVER want to privatize America's National and State parks.  I get the feeling you believe the government should not be running anything and we should privatize everything as much as possible.



There's a big difference between running a state park and running a multi-million dollar ski area.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2011)

I bet Central Park in NYC costs tenfold to manage what Belleyare does......and brings in zero revenue.


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## tjf67 (Jun 4, 2011)

threecy said:


> There's a big difference between running a state park and running a multi-million dollar ski area.




Niether r rocket science.


----------



## threecy (Jun 4, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I bet Central Park in NYC costs tenfold to manage what Belleyare does......and brings in zero revenue.


"Designated a National Historic Landmark in 1963, the park is currently managed by the Central Park Conservancy under contract with the city government. The Conservancy is a nonprofit organization that contributes 85% of Central Park's $25 million dollar annual budget, and employs 80% of the park's maintenance staff." - Wikipedia


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2011)

So, the park costs tax payers 3.75M a year.  Donations make up the rest of the 25M.  Belleyare costs taxpayers how much in comparison?

but it should be 100% privatized no?  That's your stance on state run business.  You never answered my question regarding NH being in the liquor business.


----------



## Geoff (Jun 5, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> So,
> 
> Do you want to see NH get out of the liquor business to?
> 
> Essentially, your general feeling is private business will always trump gov't business in tax revenue generation and providing better jobs with benefits for those who are employed by such businesses.



The NH liquor business is an example of a state-run business done properly.   They do about $500 million in sales and add about $130 million to the bottom line.   They poach liquor sales from bordering states.   All the highest volume liquor stores do more out of state business than local business.   I'm a poster child for their model.   All of my distilled alcohol and most of my wine comes from the NHSLS.   I can't remember the last time I bought alcohol in Vermont and it's usually pretty infrequent in Massholia.

1 HAMPTON-North* $29.8
2 HAMPTON-South* $26.4
3 PORTSMOUTH* $22.8
4 SALEM* $21.6
5 HOOKSETT-North* $17.8
6 NASHUA $17.8
7 HOOKSETT-South $14.2
8 NASHUA* $14.0
9 W. LEBANON $11.2
10 KEENE* $9.7


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 5, 2011)

Oh, I agree completely.  Just pointing out that threecy feels that privately run businesses are always better than state run businesses.

His whole 'phone book' stance......


----------



## kartski (Jun 5, 2011)

He'll love this one. A Government owned ski area, run with tax dollars and not necessarily open to the public:

http://www.westpointmwr.com/ACTIVITY/SKI/index.HTM

I'm not for shutting it down or privatizing it either. They offer discounts for the poor (E6 and below.).


----------



## Harvey (Jun 5, 2011)

dmc said:


> BS - no value...  People come up from NJ in the mini van all gassed up... Roll into Belleayre - ski for free - eat the packed lunch and go home..   No $$$ goes to the local economy..  And no tickets sold means no tax that goes into the economy..  I don't pay taxes to teach noobs from NJ to ski....



I'd bet a donut that Tony Lanza wants families from NJ skiing at Belleayre. Every mountain in the state claims to be a family mountain because families buy lessons, they rent ski gear, and they buy lift tickets.

Is it only the families from NJ that are screwing the NY tax payers or is it all families?  How are they doing it? Are they doing something illegal or are they taking advantage of promotions that Belleayre is offering?  The promo I saw from Bell most last year was a two-for-one lift ticket deal if you spent $50 in a local business.  What other promos were out there?

The NJ hate is tiresome.  Only the smallest mountains can run on local business.


----------



## thinnmann (Jun 5, 2011)

catskills said:


> Belleayre Coalition Endorses ORDA Move. Sees economic benefit for entire region. .  This surprised me.  :blink:  If I read the tea leaves, this sounds like the best and only deal Belleayre is going to get.



Surprised me too.  The Coalition's press release indicates that their support is dependent on local representation on ORDA, and on maintaining the staff that has been working there.


----------



## Geoff (Jun 5, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> I'd bet a donut that Tony Lanza wants families from NJ skiing at Belleayre. Every mountain in the state claims to be a family mountain because families buy lessons, they rent ski gear, and they buy lift tickets.
> 
> Is it only the families from NJ that are screwing the NY tax payers or is it all families?  How are they doing it? Are they doing something illegal or are they taking advantage of promotions that Belleayre is offering?  The promo I saw from Bell most last year was a two-for-one lift ticket deal if you spent $50 in a local business.  What other promos were out there?
> 
> The NJ hate is tiresome.  Only the smallest mountains can run on local business.



I think you make more money if you get people to spend money at the bar.   The yield on affluent 20-somethings and 30-somethings is much greater than the family that tends to brown bag it.


----------



## Harvey (Jun 5, 2011)

thinnmann said:


> Surprised me too.  The Coalition's press release indicates that their support is dependent on local representation on ORDA, and on maintaining the staff that has been working there.



I sensed resignation and fear in that press release.

While a million dollars may not seem like a lot in the grand scheme of the NY budget, politically it is important - it makes Bell vulnerable.  Going forward "break even" or better is key IMO.

What does anyone think about the chance that Bell or the Cats will get representation on the ORDA BOD?


----------



## thinnmann (Jun 5, 2011)

Geoff said:


> I think you make more money if you get people to spend money at the bar.   The yield on affluent 20-somethings and 30-somethings is much greater than the family that tends to brown bag it.



Just as a point of example about the family experience at Bell and the ripple effect -

Last winter my NJ family of 4 skied 24 days at Bell, 5 at Gore, 1 at WF, 1 at Windham.  Yes, we brown-bag it at Bell.  But we spent a boatload of NJ money on NY lodging, food & drink, gas & tolls, lift tickets, race equipment and entry fees.  Not to mention that speeding ticket from the local cop at 7 AM going downhill on the deserted state highway on the way to that race at W...


----------



## Geoff (Jun 5, 2011)

thinnmann said:


> Just as a point of example about the family experience at Bell and the ripple effect -
> 
> Last winter my NJ family of 4 skied 24 days at Bell, 5 at Gore, 1 at WF, 1 at Windham.  Yes, we brown-bag it at Bell.  But we spent a boatload of NJ money on NY lodging, food & drink, gas & tolls, lift tickets, race equipment and entry fees.  Not to mention that speeding ticket from the local cop at 7 AM going downhill on the deserted state highway on the way to that race at W...



You've exactly made my point.   You didn't spend squat at the ski area.   Four 20-somethings spend much more.


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## thinnmann (Jun 6, 2011)

Geoff said:


> You've exactly made my point.   You didn't spend squat at the ski area.   Four 20-somethings spend much more.



No...  not over time.

For a typical 20-something's few days of skiing at Bell per year, they might buy a discounted lift ticket, lunch, a few beers.  That is about $100.  Let's say they do that two weekends - that is $400 per 20something per season. For 4 of them, that is $1600.

My family bought season tickets, the race program, dozens of hot chocolates, an occasional lunch, a bunch of beers.  Total of about $1900 in tix and programs, couple of hundred in food and drinks = $2100.  My family spent more than the 20somethings for the Belleayre winter budget, plus we put about another $7K into the local economy.  Families with younger kids in programs spend even more.


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## dmc (Jun 6, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> I'd bet a donut that Tony Lanza wants families from NJ skiing at Belleayre. Every mountain in the state claims to be a family mountain because families buy lessons, they rent ski gear, and they buy lift tickets.
> 
> Is it only the families from NJ that are screwing the NY tax payers or is it all families?  How are they doing it? Are they doing something illegal or are they taking advantage of promotions that Belleayre is offering?  The promo I saw from Bell most last year was a two-for-one lift ticket deal if you spent $50 in a local business.  What other promos were out there?
> 
> The NJ hate is tiresome.  Only the smallest mountains can run on local business.



I don't hate NJ...  Just relax..


----------



## mondeo (Jun 6, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> So, the park costs tax payers 3.75M a year. Donations make up the rest of the 25M. Belleyare costs taxpayers how much in comparison?
> 
> but it should be 100% privatized no? That's your stance on state run business. You never answered my question regarding NH being in the liquor business.


For 1.6M residents of Manhattan. And I'm betting they wouldn't mind if that entire $25m budget was changed to a tax only on residents of Manhattan.

And let's compare the benefits of tax subisised green space to tax subsidised skiing. Green space I'd count as slightly above a basic human need, and if you live in lower Manhattan, where else are you going to go? Skiing is a luxury.


----------



## dmc (Jun 6, 2011)

mondeo said:


> And let's compare the benefits of tax subisised green space to tax subsidised skiing. Green space I'd count as slightly above a basic human need, and if you live in lower Manhattan, where else are you going to go? Skiing is a luxury.



Exactly..  We NEED parks... We don't NEED ski resorts..


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm really not arguing against Central Park and the costs of it.  It's about threecy's assertion that any business that private entities can operate instead of the state should be leased.


----------



## threecy (Jun 6, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm really not arguing against Central Park and the costs of it.  It's about threecy's assertion that any business that private entities can operate instead of the state should be leased.



I didn't know they were installing and operating multi-hundred-thousand dollar tractors and multi-million dollar chairlifts at Central Park.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jun 6, 2011)

threecy said:


> I didn't know they were installing and operating multi-hundred-thousand dollar tractors and multi-million dollar chairlifts at Central Park.



I'll take the bet that the cost of purchase for Central Park's maintenance equipment exceeds that of Belleyare's grooming equipment.


----------



## threecy (Jun 6, 2011)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll take the bet that the cost of purchase for Central Park's maintenance equipment exceeds that of Belleyare's grooming equipment.



The cost on the New York State Budget?


----------



## dmc (Jun 6, 2011)

threecy said:


> The cost on the New York State Budget?



The cost of wasted tax dollars from a place that COULD make money if they cleaned up some operating stuff - rather then tap our tax base year after year....

We need parks... We don't need skiing for people that feel all entitled to ski on NY's dime for some strange reason and defend it..


----------



## catskillman (Jun 6, 2011)

threecy said:


> Belleayre pays income, sales, mortgage, and hotel taxes?!?



IF Belleayre was making money (and a public co) they would pay income tax.

Sales tax is paid by Belleayre customers.  Belleayre only collect's it and passes it over.  They are also exempt from paying the NYS sales tax on purchases ... used to operate the mountain.  They may also be exempt from paying local county taxes on purchases, I am not sure on this but I would bet they are.  (in NYS the state tax is 4%, the remaining is set by the local counties.)

Hunter, Windham, Platikill all pay NYS taxes in many forms.  Therefore, they are supporting the Belleayre loss.  As am I.


----------



## catskillman (Jun 6, 2011)

So should Belleayre charge NJ residents more than NY residents who are subsidizsing their loss? 

I know Hunter & Windham have Greene county resident discount days periodically.


----------



## dmc (Jun 6, 2011)

http://www.post-journal.com/page/co...odell-Votes-Against-Budget-Bill.html?nav=5004



> For example, Mr. Goodell supported eliminating the proposed $15.7 million taxpayer subsidy for the state-owned Belleayre Ski Resort.



WHAT?!?!?! 15.7 million???!?!


----------



## tjf67 (Jun 6, 2011)

dmc said:


> http://www.post-journal.com/page/co...odell-Votes-Against-Budget-Bill.html?nav=5004
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT?!?!?! 15.7 million???!?!




Well that is kinda funny.  Its like saying you have 100k leaving your checking account each year, you are in serious trouble.  Of course not knowing how much gets put into it its kinda hard to tell.


----------



## Harvey (Jun 6, 2011)

Geoff said:


> I think you make more money if you get people to spend money at the bar.   The yield on affluent 20-somethings and 30-somethings is much greater than the family that tends to brown bag it.



Maybe we are an anomaly.

At Gore, Centerplate runs all the concessions - the mountain gets 15% of food and beer revenue. Even so, we buy breakfast and lunch every day that we ski.  We see 20 somethings doing BYOB.

Last year we bought 2 full passes , a season of daycare for one, 12 private lessons plus tip, season long Mtn Adventure (kiddie group lesson), one pair of Goretex pants, a turtlefur neck gaiter, probably 20-30 hand and foot warmers, a pair of mittens, and all that food listed above.  I wouldn't be surprised if we spent $5k on the hill in a year. We aren't rich - that is every penny of our discretionary income for the year.

We may not be good customers, but they certainly treat us like we are.


----------



## campgottagopee (Jun 6, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> Maybe we are an anomaly.
> 
> At Gore, Centerplate runs all the concessions - the mountain gets 15% of food and beer revenue. Even so, we buy breakfast and lunch every day that we ski.  We see 20 somethings doing BYOB.
> 
> ...



Same @ Greek, Harv. The only 20 yo at the bar are the ones working.....drinks too much for them to hang which is fine by me.


----------



## catskills (Jun 6, 2011)

Meanwhile Mt Snow forges ahead with a new 6 pack bubble chair, Hunter installs 2nd High speed lift, and Windham makes $2.4 million in improvements.  Belleayre just keeps growing more rust.


----------



## dmc (Jun 6, 2011)

catskills said:


> Meanwhile Mt Snow forges ahead with a new 6 pack bubble chair, Hunter installs 2nd High speed lift, and Windham makes $2.4 million in improvements.  Belleayre just keeps growing more rust.



They just need to turn a profit and buy the new stuff...


----------



## x10003q (Jun 7, 2011)

dmc said:


> They just need to turn a profit and buy the new stuff...



Belleayre never needs to turn a profit. 

If this bothers you then take the bull by the horns and  call your state senator and member of the assembly and ask them to start the ball rolling on amending the NYS constitution. Once this happens Belleayre can be sold. 

Simple!  :smile:

The problem for you now is that ORDA has their hooks into Belleayre and now the Catskills can join Gore in the Olympic Region.


----------



## threecy (Jun 7, 2011)

x10003q said:


> Belleayre never needs to turn a profit.
> 
> If this bothers you then take the bull by the horns and  call your state senator and member of the assembly and ask them to start the ball rolling on amending the NYS constitution. Once this happens Belleayre can be sold.



Who here was advocating for Belleayre being sold?


----------



## dmc (Jun 7, 2011)

threecy said:


> Who here was advocating for Belleayre being sold?



I just want them to do the right thing and turn a profit in these tight times..


----------



## dmc (Jun 8, 2011)

http://www.watershedpost.com/2011/future-belleayre

The video calls out Hunter and Windham - but conveniently not Plattekill.  
Probably easy to go after the big guys...  But not 100% the truth as Platekill is JUST as vocal if not more then the others...


----------



## tjf67 (Jun 8, 2011)

dmc said:


> I just want them to do the right thing and turn a profit in these tight times..



That is all I want to.  I read in the paper up here that some catskill group is questioning the wisdom of turning it over to orda.  They say if it were only a matter of making a profit then basically why didn't you convey that message to the other stewarts of the hill.  They think may it should be turned over to Parks and Recreations or some other wacked out government group.


I beleieve it should be best for NYers.  It there is a quasi government agency that is set up to run ski areas, doesn't make sense to roll it into that?

If I need my pot holes filled out side my house I would be really confused if I had to call the Department of Health.


----------



## freeskier423 (Jun 8, 2011)

good point. ORDA is good at running ski resorts. That is what they do. DEC is not set up to be flexible enough with purchasing to be efficient in that business. The manager of the ski resort should be able to oversee their own budget and determine what is necessary for their business to turn a profit. not someone that knows nothing of the ski industry,


----------



## catskills (Jun 10, 2011)

dmc said:


> http://www.watershedpost.com/2011/future-belleayre
> 
> The video calls out Hunter and Windham - but conveniently not Plattekill.
> Probably easy to go after the big guys...  But not 100% the truth as Platekill is JUST as vocal if not more then the others...



DMC you got to admit that a big difference here is Hunter and Windham make a lot of money selling real estate. For example, the wall street gang at Windham is selling or already has sold postage stamp size building lots between two trails high on the mountain for a few million just for one building lot.  They got a tunnel under one of the trails to drive to those building lots. One building lot pays for all the 2011 Windham upgrades and they didn't even have to sell one lift ticket for those upgrades.  :roll:  Like the video said,  Windham is very well connected in Albany.  For example how did they get the environmental impact approved for those building lots high on the mountain.   *There is a lot more going on behind the scenes here that is hidden from all of us. *


----------



## mondeo (Jun 10, 2011)

I still can't find where in the NYS constitution it says it the operations can't be leased out to a private entity.


----------



## dmc (Jun 10, 2011)

catskills said:


> DMC you got to admit that a big difference here is Hunter and Windham make a lot of money selling real estate. For example, the wall street gang at Windham is selling or already has sold postage stamp size building lots between two trails high on the mountain for a few million just for one building lot.  They got a tunnel under one of the trails to drive to those building lots. One building lot pays for all the 2011 Windham upgrades and they didn't even have to sell one lift ticket for those upgrades.  :roll:  Like the video said,  Windham is very well connected in Albany.  For example how did they get the environmental impact approved for those building lots high on the mountain.   *There is a lot more going on behind the scenes here that is hidden from all of us. *



I hear ya... 

I can't really speak for Windham...

I know Hunter sends people up to Albany to lobby for stuff... Why not?

But I'm sure Hunter makes a good coin on real estate - again - why not? 

BUT - they didn't start that hotel until they actually had the money to do it effectively and burned the mortgage in like a year - I forget but it was paid off fast... And most of the units were sold. Incredible.. 

And thats a fiscally responsible business move.. After the hotel was paid they had enough for the 6pack.. The linear movement frustrates some but it makes sense for a family owned place.

But the point is - if your going to report... Report the whole story.. Plattekill has WAAAAAAY more to lose then Hunter or Windham. Laszlo has a lot to say...


----------



## catskills (Jun 10, 2011)

dmc said:


> I hear ya...
> But the point is - if your going to report... Report the whole story.. Plattekill has WAAAAAAY more to lose then Hunter or Windham. Laszlo has a lot to say...



The whole truth is that the more business Belleayre does, the more Plattekill does.  Plattekill gets a lot of spill over from Belleayre.  People drive to  Belleayre from Maryland, drive up RT28 multiple times to Belleayre and see the signs for Plattekill and say hey lets try Plattekill its only a few more minutes down the road.  Once they ski  Plattekill, they find out how amazing Plattekill is and they keep going to Plattekill. 

Personally I think Plattekill's business would increase significantly if the Belleayre Resort thing was built.  

To tell the whole story like you say I have to agree that Belleayre management has gotten a lot more aggressive on the lift ticket discounts, which has probably eaten into Plattekill's bottom line.  The Belleayre Friday lift ticket discount is a good and bad thing.  It may get people to try Belleayre that have never tried it while driving up to Vermont.   This can eventually be a good thing for Plattekill and other Catskill resorts.   On the other hand it may decrease lift ticket sales on the short term at Plattekill a bit.

Just to add.  If customers are going to Gore, Whiteface, and Vermont rather than Belleayre,  they are not going anywhere near Plattekill.


----------



## dmc (Jun 10, 2011)

catskills said:


> To tell the whole story like you say I have to agree that Belleayre management has gotten a lot more aggressive on the lift ticket discounts, which has probably eaten into Plattekill's bottom line.  The Belleayre Friday lift ticket discount is a good and bad thing.  It may get people to try Belleayre that have never tried it while driving up to Vermont.   This can eventually be a good thing for Plattekill and other Catskill resorts.   On the other hand it may decrease lift ticket sales on the short term at Plattekill a bit.



It just may be tough for a small "mom and pop" to deal with the short term decrease during this recession.   It's bad timing... Could be what riled up Lazlo and friends.

But again - Platty is a vibrant part of this story and to not include it is disingenuous by making it appear that it only involves the "big guys" to gain sympathy for Belleayre;  Thats what kinda makes me mad.


----------



## oakapple (Jun 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> I still can't find where in the NYS constitution it says it the operations can't be leased out to a private entity.



The link is here, and this is the money quote:



> The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. *They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private*, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed. Nothing herein contained shall prevent the state from . . . constructing and maintaining not more than twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more than two miles of such trails shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the slopes of Belleayre Mountain in Ulster and Delaware counties. . . .



It seems pretty clear to me.


----------



## mondeo (Jun 11, 2011)

> The *lands* of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private,





oakapple said:


> It seems pretty clear to me.


Yep, seems pretty clear to me. As long as NYS retains the land, they can lease the operating rights.


----------



## threecy (Jun 11, 2011)

mondeo said:


> Yep, seems pretty clear to me. As long as NYS retains the land, they can lease the operating rights.



I bet they could word a lease carefully enough to possibly get it through the courts, as well.


----------



## x10003q (Jun 11, 2011)

threecy said:


> I bet they could word a lease carefully enough to possibly get it through the courts, as well.



Who is the "they" to do this in the courts?


----------



## threecy (Jun 11, 2011)

x10003q said:


> Who is the "they" to do this in the courts?



They, as in whomever in the New York state government would be making a lease happen.


----------



## catskills (Jun 12, 2011)

dmc said:


> It just may be tough for a small "mom and pop" to deal with the short term decrease during this recession.   It's bad timing... Could be what riled up Lazlo and friends.
> 
> But again - Platty is a vibrant part of this story and to not include it is disingenuous by making it appear that it only involves the "big guys" to gain sympathy for Belleayre;  Thats what kinda makes me mad.


The real story is the big money real estate deals and lobbyists in Albany.   The Plattekill story is just a diversion. 

I love skiing Plattkeill and I definitely want to see Plattekill keep running.  There are some good people over at Plattekill.  I give credit for the owner Lazlo in keeping this place running. He and his wife do not have an easy job. Truth is when I read your statement, "Lazlo and friends" I was ROFLMAO.  Anyone who knows Lazlo knows why I was laughing.


----------



## Harvey (Jun 12, 2011)

catskills said:


> To tell the whole story like you say I have to agree that Belleayre management has gotten a lot more aggressive on the lift ticket discounts, which has probably eaten into Plattekill's bottom line.



I agree with this 99% - remove the word probably and it's spot on. If a competitor — and let's face it Bell is Platts closest competitor in the Cats — cuts it prices in half (2-for-1) it's going to hurt your business.  There's no scenario that I can imagine where Bells discounts are helping Plattekill.

What's got Laszlo and Danielle riled is the fact that the business undercutting him runs at a loss, and that loss is covered by taxpayers, including him.

On the other side, under the DEC Bell's had little capital improvement which has to make it harder to sell tickets.



catskills said:


> Just to add.  If customers are going to Gore, Whiteface, and Vermont rather than Belleayre,  they are not going anywhere near Plattekill.



I must be the exception to the rule.  I ski at Gore, Whiteface and Vermont. Gore primarily, Whiteface when I can, and Vermont once a year.  This year I made three trips to the Catskills, 2 Plattekill and 1 Hunter.


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## dmc (Jun 12, 2011)

catskills said:


> The real story is the big money real estate deals and lobbyists in Albany.   The Plattekill story is just a diversion.
> 
> I love skiing Plattkeill and I definitely want to see Plattekill keep running.  There are some good people over at Plattekill.  I give credit for the owner Lazlo in keeping this place running. He and his wife do not have an easy job. Truth is when I read your statement, "Lazlo and friends" I was ROFLMAO.  Anyone who knows Lazlo knows why I was laughing.



whatever... You know what I meant...
Would Laszlo and company be better?

Plattekill is not a diversion - it's a ski area...  But you knew that...  Their opinion on this is just as valid as the big guys..


----------



## dmc (Jun 12, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> What's got Laszlo and Danielle riled is the fact that the business undercutting him runs at a loss, and that loss is covered by taxpayers, including him.



shhhhh.. It's just a diversion... :roll:

Doesn't count...


----------



## catskills (Jun 12, 2011)

dmc said:


> shhhhh.. It's just a diversion... :roll:
> 
> Doesn't count...


Is it a real issue for Plattekill's bottom line?  YES.  I already stated that.  Is it a diversion from the million dollar building lots sold by Windham and lobbying done at Albany.  You betcha.  shhhhh nobody is suppose to know about the building lots at Windham.


----------



## dmc (Jun 12, 2011)

catskills said:


> Is it a real issue for Plattekill's bottom line?  YES.  I already stated that.  Is it a diversion from the million dollar building lots sold by Windham and lobbying done at Albany.  You betcha.



How do they relate?  What does Plats beef with Belleayre have to do with Windham?!?!?
To me it seems the diversion is you bringing up Windham... 

There are three distinct ski areas upset with Belleayres ticket dumping paid for by the taxpayer...

Hunter, Windham AND Plattekill...


----------



## catskills (Jun 12, 2011)

dmc said:


> How do they relate?  What does Plats beef with Belleayre have to do with Windham?!?!?
> To me it seems the diversion is you bringing up Windham...
> 
> There are three distinct ski areas upset with Belleayres ticket dumping paid for by the taxpayer...
> ...


I think we are in agreement .  Hunter/Windham  beef with Belleayre is for very different reasons then the beef Plattekill has with Belleayre.  Plattekill is truly all about lift ticket sales.  Hunter and Windham have Real Estate deals on the line.


----------



## dmc (Jun 13, 2011)

catskills said:


> I think we are in agreement .  Hunter/Windham  beef with Belleayre is for very different reasons then the beef Plattekill has with Belleayre.  Plattekill is truly all about lift ticket sales.  Hunter and Windham have Real Estate deals on the line.



I don't agree with that...

A beef is a beef...


----------



## oakapple (Jun 14, 2011)

threecy said:


> I bet they could word a lease carefully enough to possibly get it through the courts, as well.



Oh yeah? The dictionary definition of "lease" is: "a contract renting land, buildings, etc., to another."

What property would be conveyed in the lease you're imagining, without violating the state Constitution? What would they be getting for their money? Who can you imagine that would want it? What's in it for them?

And who would sign up for that deal, given the practical certainty that this "lease" could be tied up in litigation for years?


----------



## ta&idaho (Jun 14, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Oh yeah? The dictionary definition of "lease" is: "a contract renting land, buildings, etc., to another."
> 
> What property would be conveyed in the lease you're imagining, without violating the state Constitution? What would they be getting for their money? Who can you imagine that would want it? What's in it for them?
> 
> And who would sign up for that deal, given the practical certainty that this "lease" could be tied up in litigation for years?



New York could potentially enter into a license and operating agreement with a private operator and sidestep the lease/sale prohibition in the constitution.


----------



## oakapple (Jun 14, 2011)

ta&idaho said:


> New York could potentially enter into a license and operating agreement with a private operator and sidestep the lease/sale prohibition in the constitution.



I agree that this could probably be done without violating the state constitution. But you still have to come up with a plausible structure that would be in both the operator’s and the state’s interest. It's not so clear that you can. There are plenty of ski areas on state or federally-owned land. But they aren’t encumbered by a state constitution as specific and as limiting as the provisions that control Belleayre. All of that makes Belleayre somewhat undesirable for a private operator.


----------



## threecy (Jun 14, 2011)

oakapple said:


> There are plenty of ski areas on state or federally-owned land. But they aren’t encumbered by a state constitution as specific and as limiting as the provisions that control Belleayre. All of that makes Belleayre somewhat undesirable for a private operator.



On the flip side, these federally-owned land area leases started with zero equipment/trails/infrastructure, whereas Belleayre is turnkey.


----------



## oakapple (Jun 15, 2011)

oakapple said:


> There are plenty of ski areas on state or federally-owned land. But they aren’t encumbered by a state constitution as specific and as limiting as the provisions that control Belleayre. All of that makes Belleayre somewhat undesirable for a private operator.
> 
> 
> threecy said:
> ...


The conditions that existed decades ago, when those ski areas were created, aren't relevant to the economic decision an operator would make _today_. No one now is building new ski areas from scratch.

If you were in the ski industry and had capital to invest, the choice probably wouldn't be Belleayre vs. a bare mountain with no infrastructure. The choice would be Belleayre vs. buying an existing ski area that wants to sell vs. expanding an existing area that you already own.


----------



## threecy (Jun 15, 2011)

oakapple said:


> If you were in the ski industry and had capital to invest, the choice probably wouldn't be Belleayre vs. a bare mountain with no infrastructure. The choice would be Belleayre vs. buying an existing ski area that wants to sell vs. expanding an existing area that you already own.



An operator wouldn't be asked to *buy* Belleayre - it's a turnkey operator with no land, lifts, or facilities to purchase.  Whereas, if one were to buy an existing ski area, one would have to purchase the facilities.

One of the biggest challenges in the ski industry is assets - in part, this is why we're seeing REIT's becoming so popular in New England.  It's in theory a lot easier to take over the operations of Belleayre and make investments moving forward, than it is to purchase a ski area and continue to make investments.


----------



## tjf67 (Jun 15, 2011)

threecy said:


> An operator wouldn't be asked to *buy* Belleayre - it's a turnkey operator with no land, lifts, or facilities to purchase.  Whereas, if one were to buy an existing ski area, one would have to purchase the facilities.
> 
> One of the biggest challenges in the ski industry is assets - in part, this is why we're seeing REIT's becoming so popular in New England.  It's in theory a lot easier to take over the operations of Belleayre and make investments moving forward, than it is to purchase a ski area and continue to make investments.




You ever know people who will talk about stuff even though they have no idea what they are talking about?    That is this thread.


----------



## kartski (Jun 15, 2011)

oakapple said:


> I agree that this could probably be done without violating the state constitution. But you still have to come up with a plausible structure that would be in both the operator’s and the state’s interest. It's not so clear that you can. There are plenty of ski areas on state or federally-owned land. But they aren’t encumbered by a state constitution as specific and as limiting as the provisions that control Belleayre. All of that makes Belleayre somewhat undesirable for a private operator.



The law is specific:

http://www.adirondack-park.net/history/article14-text.html

"  Section  1. The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired,
constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever
kept as  wild  forest  lands.  They  shall  not  be  leased,  sold  or
exchanged,  or  be  taken  by  any corporation, public or private, nor
shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed..............

on the slopes of  Belleayre  Mountain  in  Ulster  and  Delaware
counties  and  not  more  than forty miles of ski trails thirty to two
hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided  that
no  more  than  eight  miles  of such trails shall be in excess of one
hundred twenty feet wide,......"

I can remember voting on an amendment about 15 years ago allowing them to widen the trails in the State owned area's.

They might be able to lease food service as that is not land specific, but Skiing / Riding, lifts, even Ski School requires use of the land and that is not allowed. It is what it is, the Ski Area was developed before the commercial areas when the demand existed and the resources were not available. I ski Hunter because it's 70 min. from home, Belleayre is 90, it's a long slog down 28.


----------



## Black Phantom (Jun 15, 2011)

kartski said:


> The law is specific:
> 
> http://www.adirondack-park.net/history/article14-text.html
> 
> ...



Belleayre should not operate until the State can develop a reasonable financial plan that will not require any additional infusion of taxpayer money.


----------



## threecy (Jun 15, 2011)

kartski said:


> I can remember voting on an amendment about 15 years ago allowing them to widen the trails in the State owned area's.


I thought the argument was that leasing the area would be too minor of an issue to justify a constitutional amendment...yet widening trails was?


----------



## x10003q (Jun 15, 2011)

threecy said:


> I thought the argument was that leasing the area would be too minor of an issue to justify a constitutional amendment...yet widening trails was?



I think the widening was a safety issue related to ski racing and not a financial issue. Gore widened Twister around the same time frame. Gore runs SG, GS, and SL on Twister.


----------



## oakapple (Jun 15, 2011)

Black Phantom said:


> Belleayre should not operate until the State can develop a reasonable financial plan that will not require any additional infusion of taxpayer money.



Then why not close Central Park? It also requires taxpayer funds, and unlike Belleayre, it doesn't even charge admission.


----------



## ta&idaho (Jun 15, 2011)

We must be really, really far from ski season.


----------



## kartski (Jun 15, 2011)

threecy said:


> I thought the argument was that leasing the area would be too minor of an issue to justify a constitutional amendment...yet widening trails was?



Cutting Timber. A big down side to that, there was some nice Hardwood taken down that could have been used by crafts persons. Couldn't sold and was mulched for cover. While some instances seem bad, If it were easy to circumvent some political donations might get someone permission to log trees that belong to the people.


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## threecy (Jun 16, 2011)

oakapple said:


> Then why not close Central Park? It also requires taxpayer funds, and unlike Belleayre, it doesn't even charge admission.


...and is largely privately funded, and I'm going to venture a guess sees more use than Belleayre...


----------



## catskills (Jun 19, 2011)

Shifting from DEC to ORDA full time seasonal skilled employees (not cafeteria staff)  salaries would go from $12/hour down to $9/hour. Note it costs employees 1-2 gallons of gas to get to and from Belleayre. Less full time employees with benefits.  More employees at Belleayre would need food stamps and public assistance.  ORDA would have to purchase liability insurance.  ORDA would have  higher pay for administration and executive salaries.  

In the end there is no real savings for the NY state tax payer moving Belleayre from DEC to ORDA.


----------



## Black Phantom (Jun 19, 2011)

catskills said:


> Shifting from DEC to ORDA full time seasonal skilled employees (not cafeteria staff)  salaries would go from $12/hour down to $9/hour. Note it costs employees 1-2 gallons of gas to get to and from Belleayre. Less full time employees with benefits.  More employees at Belleayre would need food stamps and public assistance.  ORDA would have to purchase liability insurance.  ORDA would have  higher pay for administration and executive salaries.
> 
> In the end there is no real savings for the NY state tax payer moving Belleayre from DEC to ORDA.



Sounds like Belleayre ought to be shuttered if this is the case.  Since when is a ski area deemed to be a welfare institution? 

Do all employees all have tip cups out?


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## thinnmann (Jun 19, 2011)

Can anyone see Belleayre fitting into this page at all?  It isn't going to happen.  They barely mention Gore.  Bell is going to get the scraps.
http://www.orda.org/corporate/index.php

By the way, that intro states: "In recent years, New York has provided ORDA with over $70 million for venue upgrades."  _Jesus H!_: NYS can certainly afford Belleayre!


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## tjf67 (Jun 19, 2011)

catskills said:


> Shifting from DEC to ORDA full time seasonal skilled employees (not cafeteria staff)  salaries would go from $12/hour down to $9/hour. Note it costs employees 1-2 gallons of gas to get to and from Belleayre. Less full time employees with benefits.  More employees at Belleayre would need food stamps and public assistance.  ORDA would have to purchase liability insurance.  ORDA would have  higher pay for administration and executive salaries.
> 
> In the end there is no real savings for the NY state tax payer moving Belleayre from DEC to ORDA.



Was this determined using beer math?


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## tjf67 (Jun 19, 2011)

thinnmann said:


> Can anyone see Belleayre fitting into this page at all?  It isn't going to happen.  They barely mention Gore.  Bell is going to get the scraps.
> http://www.orda.org/corporate/index.php
> 
> By the way, that intro states: "In recent years, New York has provided ORDA with over $70 million for venue upgrades."  _Jesus H!_: NYS can certainly afford Belleayre!



There is nothing special about bell now.  What is your fear if ORDA steps in?


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## thinnmann (Jun 19, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> There is nothing special about bell now.  What is your fear if ORDA steps in?



Belleayre is very special to everyone who skis there.  It is its small mountain, uncrowded, family oriented, lots of ungroomed, gladed, better-than-expected snow, smells like skiing kind of vibe that makes it special.

I think ORDA has enough on its plate and Belleayre is going to be nothing but its nuisance.  

Did you read ORDA's mission statement?  Belleayre does not fit in.


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## tjf67 (Jun 19, 2011)

thinnmann said:


> Belleayre is very special to everyone who skis there.  It is its small mountain, uncrowded, family oriented, lots of ungroomed, gladed, better-than-expected snow, smells like skiing kind of vibe that makes it special.
> 
> I think ORDA has enough on its plate and Belleayre is going to be nothing but its nuisance.
> 
> Did you read ORDA's mission statement?  Belleayre does not fit in.



Umm at least it has ski areas in it mission station.   What r u nervous about?  It has below average lifts, below average snow making and can't draw a crowd.


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## thinnmann (Jun 19, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> Umm at least it has ski areas in it mission station.   What r u nervous about?  It has below average lifts, below average snow making and can't draw a crowd.



Precisely.  Please do not ski there.


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## tjf67 (Jun 19, 2011)

thinnmann said:


> Precisely.  Please do not ski there.




Ok I get it.  You r speaking selfeshly.  I don't see bell in my ski cards so don't u worry.


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## catskills (Jun 19, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> Ok I get it.  You r speaking selfeshly.  I don't see bell in my ski cards so don't u worry.


Just to make sure you don't ever visit Belleayre.  Belleayre goes weeks without making snow.  The only grooming is to groom all the trails flat with not one mogul on the entire mountain. .  Most of the time the place is solid blue ice.  You would hate it at Belleayre  :wink:  The folks that do go to Belleayre seem to keep coming back for some reason.


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## tjf67 (Jun 20, 2011)

catskills said:


> Just to make sure you don't ever visit Belleayre.  Belleayre goes weeks without making snow.  The only grooming is to groom all the trails flat with not one mogul on the entire mountain. .  Most of the time the place is solid blue ice.  You would hate it at Belleayre  :wink:  The folks that do go to Belleayre seem to keep coming back for some reason.





How many skier visits does bell get and how much of those are freebies?  I would argue that not as much as they need.  If it is a private ski area and the owner wants to run at a loss thats there choice.  

Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.  

people from NJ should pay extra.  I dont pay taxes so they can ski cheap.


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## thinnmann (Jun 20, 2011)

catskills said:


> Just to make sure you don't ever visit Belleayre.  Belleayre goes weeks without making snow.  The only grooming is to groom all the trails flat with not one mogul on the entire mountain. .  Most of the time the place is solid blue ice.  You would hate it at Belleayre  :wink:  The folks that do go to Belleayre seem to keep coming back for some reason.



Much love, Catskills:beer:


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## threecy (Jun 20, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> If it is a private ski area and the owner wants to run at a loss thats there choice.
> 
> Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.



Especially in today's economy, this is huge.

A very small percentage of the population skis.  In a time in which there are significant cuts being made to some notable parts of government, it is going to get harder and harder to explain to the average, non-skiing taxpayer why they're being required to subsidize what is considered by many to be the wealthy man's leisurely pursuit.


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## thinnmann (Jun 20, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> How many skier visits does bell get and how much of those are freebies?  I would argue that not as much as they need.  If it is a private ski area and the owner wants to run at a loss thats there choice.
> 
> Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.
> 
> people from NJ should pay extra.  I dont pay taxes so they can ski cheap.



Search out the posts in this forum.  The costs of Belleayre's operation have been widely discussed.  The wash can be sort of summarized by this: Belleayre runs a deficit for the winter months, but makes it up in the off season.  Most importantly, it is the biggest economic engine for everything from Kingston through Andes on the NY-28 corridor.

I bring many thousands of NJ dollars up that corridor (and even to Gore and WF) every winter.  Without Belleayre, I would be bringing that cash to VT; or worse PA...


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## x10003q (Jun 20, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> Now being a state run place I want it to cover its costs.
> 
> people from NJ should pay extra.  I dont pay taxes so they can ski cheap.



Hilarious commentary from somebody who is from the heart of NYstate supported venues. Maybe when the $18 million white elephant "downtown" convention center in Lake Placid pays for itself and runs a profit we will be able to take your comments about Belleayre seriously. How about all the other LP venues that run at a loss every year? You don't seem to be to concerned about your tax dollars paying for those money losers.


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## tjf67 (Jun 20, 2011)

x10003q said:


> Hilarious commentary from somebody who is from the heart of NYstate supported venues. Maybe when the $18 million white elephant "downtown" convention center in Lake Placid pays for itself and runs a profit we will be able to take your comments about Belleayre seriously. How about all the other LP venues that run at a loss every year? You don't seem to be to concerned about your tax dollars paying for those money losers.



It is projected the the convention center will pay for itself in 5 years.  In the mean time they are generating enough rev to cover the payments on the debt.  Anything else?

 Why do you go to Bell?


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## x10003q (Jun 20, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> It is projected the the convention center will pay for itself in 5 years.  In the mean time they are generating enough rev to cover the payments on the debt.  Anything else?
> 
> Why do you go to Bell?



Projected? By who? Of course ORDA projected a rosy financial situation. If it was so rosy and profitable how come a private entity did not want to do the Convention Center in LP?  The financial complaints about Belleayre are a drop in the bucket compared to an $18 million NYS outlay + ongoing funding by ORDA that has nothing to do with winter sports. If the convention center was never built Lake Placid would still be Lake Placid. The little incremental business from the CC will only benefit private property owners while NYS taxpayers gets stuck holding the bag.

You say they are generating enough revenue to cover the payments on the debt. How about a link? ORDA never breaks out the other money losing venues in the ORDA accounting. I am sure they won't break out the convention center financials either.


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## tjf67 (Jun 20, 2011)

x10003q said:


> Projected? By who? Of course ORDA projected a rosy financial situation. If it was so rosy and profitable how come a private entity did not want to do the Convention Center in LP?  The financial complaints about Belleayre are a drop in the bucket compared to an $18 million NYS outlay + ongoing funding by ORDA that has nothing to do with winter sports. If the convention center was never built Lake Placid would still be Lake Placid. The little incremental business from the CC will only benefit private property owners while NYS taxpayers gets stuck holding the bag.
> 
> You say they are generating enough revenue to cover the payments on the debt. How about a link? ORDA never breaks out the other money losing venues in the ORDA accounting. I am sure they won't break out the convention center financials either.



Its getting way off base.  The idea that ORDA can run a ski area more efficient than the DEC is very appealing as a NYS tax payer.  You not being a NYS tax payer really don't have a dog in the race.  Your are only interested in your family and I can appreciate that but I don't want to subsidize your skiing.  Thats it.  If ORDA can come in and run the show more efficiently whats the problem?


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## x10003q (Jun 20, 2011)

tjf67 said:


> Its getting way off base.  The idea that ORDA can run a ski area more efficient than the DEC is very appealing as a NYS tax payer.  You not being a NYS tax payer really don't have a dog in the race.  Your are only interested in your family and I can appreciate that but I don't want to subsidize your skiing.  Thats it.  If ORDA can come in and run the show more efficiently whats the problem?



I am a NYS taxpayer. I just do not have the ability to determine where my money gets wasted. ORDA is all about Lake Placid. They take care of Lake Placid. I have been a regular at Gore since the 1980s and have witnessed how they treat Gore. The CC is just one more example. They might be able to do the job running Belleayre, but Belleayre will be short changed. 

By the way I might be subsidizing your skiing.


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## tjf67 (Jun 20, 2011)

x10003q said:


> I am a NYS taxpayer. I just do not have the ability to determine where my money gets wasted. ORDA is all about Lake Placid. They take care of Lake Placid. I have been a regular at Gore since the 1980s and have witnessed how they treat Gore. The CC is just one more example. They might be able to do the job running Belleayre, but Belleayre will be short changed.
> 
> By the way I might be subsidizing your skiing.




I agree that Lake Placid gets a lot more money than gore but to say they have been ignored is silly.  That hill has been growing like crazy the last decade.    Has any hill in the east expanded there terrain as much as gore's has over the last decade?


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## Harvey (Jun 20, 2011)

I think there is potential benefit for Belleayre under ORDA .  If NY has spent 70 million on ORDA venues, that speaks to ORDA's lobbying capability.  I have no idea how much went to Gore vs Whiteface vs the LP venues, but even if Gore got a smaller share, it's probably more than what the state has invested in Belleayre. DEC's mission is conservation. ORDA's mission is development.

Not totally sure who is really on what side here.  I like Belleayre. I want it to succeed. I want to be self-sufficient (operating budgets vs revenue), so that it's less likely to get the ax. I also don't want to see the state operating Bell at a loss* while distributing large quantities of discounted tickets.

IMO cuts in everything are likely. Belleayre posted on their site this past week: _"We are proud to announce Belleayre will be opening for the 2011-2012 Skiing and Riding Season on November 12, 2011!"_  To me that indicates that in some minds there may have been some doubt.

With regard to ORDA executive pay - is there any evidence that ORDA will increase executive head count to oversee Bell? It's a sincere question - I don't know the answer.  Were there any DEC people who were full time managing Belleayre? I don't know that either.

I don't know that much about Belleayre's infrastructure. How much infrastructure upgrade or repair have they had in the last ten years? I'm betting it's less than ORDA venues.

I also don't doubt that there is political motivation behind this or any reorganization of state government. That doesn't automatically mean that this re-org will be bad for Belleayre.

If you want to see Bell stay under DEC control, what is the ideal scenario in your mind?

*(saw this published in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise, trying to find the source of the numbers).


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## catskills (Jun 20, 2011)

Ideal solution is NY State Parks and Recreation which would not require paying for private liability insurance and emphasis will be on not loosing money rather than skier visits.


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## oakapple (Jun 21, 2011)

harvey44 said:


> I also don't want to see the state operating Bellayre at a loss while distributing large quantities of discounted tickets.


The crucial question is whether they attracted visitors who wouldn't have otherwise come. Skiing is a peculiar business, in that once you've incurred the large expense to open _at all_, it costs practically the same amount to run the place whether 10,000 skiers show up or 20,000. If you can offer discounts and attract people who wouldn't have otherwise come, that is a good deal. If some of those people love Belleayre so much that they return another day, that's an even better deal.

Indeed, at just about any ski area, there are better deals available than the walk-up price. It happens to be more conspicuous when Belleayre does it, because they're state-owned. I don't know if Belleayre is distributing its discounts wisely or recklessly, but the fact that they exist is not necessarily bad.



harvey44 said:


> I don't know that much about Belleayre's infrastructure. How much infrastructure upgrade or repair have they had in the last ten years? I'm betting it's less than ORDA venues.


Belleayre's only significant visible investment in the last 10 years is the Super Chief lift in 2006, a detachable that replced a fixed-grip lift on the same line.


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## k123 (Jul 17, 2011)

Recent article on Belleayre

*Easy in the Catskills:*
State shouldn't rush to make Belleayre center part of Adirondack-centered authority

Rest here


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## thinnmann (Jan 17, 2012)

Looks like it is coming if the budget is approved:

_The Budget authorizes the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA) to enter into an agreement to transfer the operations of the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center to ORDA at the close of the 2011-12 ski season. ORDA will allow for more efficient management of Belleayre operations utilizing their expertise in the ski industry.​_
Read more: http://poststar.com/blogs/warren_pi...cle_fe921826-4139-11e1-b563-001871e3ce6c.html


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## VTSKICTLAX (Jan 17, 2012)

If approved, would that mean that a season pass to Gore and Whiteface would also be good at Belleayre and vice versa? That could be a sweet deal for those of us in the Northeast looking for multiple options during the winter...What is the downside?


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## catskills (Jan 17, 2012)

thinnmann said:


> Looks like it is coming if the budget is approved:
> 
> _The Budget authorizes the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA) to enter into an agreement to transfer the operations of the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center to ORDA at the close of the 2011-12 ski season. ORDA will allow for more efficient management of Belleayre operations utilizing their expertise in the ski industry.​_



See Watershed Post


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## legalskier (Jan 17, 2012)

_*It's official: Cuomo wants ORDA to run Belleayre Mountain next year*
*** This is *a preliminary budget proposal*, so the transfer will not happen until the budget is finalized. But it's a big indication that the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation's days in the ski business may be numbered. ***_
Link: http://www.watershedpost.com/2012/its-official-cuomo-wants-orda-run-belleayre-mountain-next-year

If I'm not mistaken, the state's fiscal year ends on March 31. Must the budget be finalized by then?



VTSKICTLAX said:


> What is the downside?



If the new management that's based outside the Catskills region isn't sensitive to Belleayre's significance as an economic driver in the Route 28 corridor, the downside for local business people could be rocky. Additionally, would new management support the other off season programs that Belleayre promotes, like the music series, jazz festival, children's theater, the swimming area, etc?


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## catskills (Jan 17, 2012)

> If the new management that's based outside the Catskills region isn't sensitive to Belleayre's significance as an economic driver in the Route 28 corridor, the downside for local business people could be rocky. Additionally, would new management support the other off season programs that Belleayre promotes, like the music series, jazz festival, children's theater, the swimming area, etc?


 Good points.  This is why Belleayre should be run by NY State Parks and Recreation which are responsible for many parks like Jones Beach. 

The other issue is ORDA wages are extremely low and are not self sufficient to live on.  NY State Parks and Recreation has higher wages and better benefits than ORDA. Belleayre employees under ORDA may be more dependent on Ulster County social services and no health care.  When they get hurt they will require assistance from Ulster county tax payers.


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## Harvey (Jan 17, 2012)

legalskier said:


> If the new management that's based outside the Catskills region isn't sensitive to Belleayre's significance as an economic driver in the Route 28 corridor, the downside for local business people could be rocky. Additionally, would new management support the other off season programs that Belleayre promotes, like the music series, jazz festival, children's theater, the swimming area, etc?



I think it's also a question of whether the budget will support it.  The budget doc recommends a cut to the DEC budget of 16%, and it seems likely that if Bell were to stay with the DEC the mountain's operating budget would be cut even further than the cuts this year. (Those cuts were heavy duty).

I'll bet that there will be a lot of dissatisfaction with budgets for Belleayre (and Gore and Whiteface) in the next year.  But I don't think those concerns would not exist without this change in management.


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## oakapple (Jan 18, 2012)

harvey44 said:


> I'll bet that there will be a lot of dissatisfaction with budgets for Belleayre (and Gore and Whiteface) in the next year.  But I don't think those concerns would not exist without this change in management.



I understand the concerns of Belleayre fans (and I count myself as one). But it just makes no sense to have two state agencies in the ski business. This consolidation was long overdue.


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## thinnmann (Jan 18, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I understand the concerns of Belleayre fans (and I count myself as one). But it just makes no sense to have two state agencies in the ski business. This consolidation was long overdue.



From The Midhudson News .com:

_State Assemblyman Kevin Cahill (D-Kingston) said the issue at Belleayre is funding, not administration. "Left to its own operationally, the ski center has been and can be profitable. Management efficiencies have long been the practice at the facility," he said. "Putting it in an under-funded regional authority with little or no connection to the Catskills does not put the needed capital resources into the system."​_


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 18, 2012)

Here's what I'd love to know, WHERE can we find the below data?



> _[State Assemblyman Kevin Cahill (D-Kingston) said "Left to its own operationally, the ski center has been and can be profitable.."_



It's a public entity, so we should ostensibly have access to this data.  And what's recently come out completely refutes the above and says Belleayre loses money.  I'd like the see the truth (re: making/losing money).


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## catskills (Jan 18, 2012)

Kingston Freeman Paper: Change in Belleayre operation moves closer to reality


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## thinnmann (Jan 22, 2012)

Good article!

http://www.woodstockx.com/2012/01/22/unkind-cuts-as-belleayre-suffers-so-does-shandaken-economy/


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## legalskier (Mar 11, 2012)

News release from Assemblyman Kevin Cahill today:

_*ASSEMBLY BUDGET PROPOSAL REJECTS BELLEAYRE TRANSFER TO OLYMPIC REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY*
Albany, NY 
Assemblymember Kevin Cahill (D Ulster / Dutchess) announced that theAssembly's budget proposal does not include Governor Cuomo's plan to place the BelleayreMountain Ski Center, currently overseen by the Department of Environmental Conservation,under the management of the Olympic Regional Development Authority.
The issue at Belleayre is funding, not administration. Putting it in an under-funded regional authority with little or no connection to the Catskills does nothing to assure the Ski Center willreceive the resources it needs to thrive.³Belleayre has been hit with a hugely disproportionate reduction in funding compared to other agencies of the state. Simply shifting the operation to another entity without adequate localrepresentation and a clear long term financial plan is not the answer.
This is an opportunity to go back to the drawing board and re-imagine the possibilities for the great asset of the Catskills, thiscenter of commerce for the Route 28 corridor and tremendous recreational facility for so many New Yorkers.´_
Link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/84944617/News-Release-Assembly-Budget-Rejects-Belleayre-Transfer

Related article: 

_*Assembly budget gives thumbs-down to Belleayre ORDA transfer*
Not included in the New York State Assembly's 2012 budget proposal: Money for ORDA to take over the management of the Belleayre Ski Center, currently operated by DEC. The Assembly has not yet passed its budget, but a press release from Assemblyman Kevin Cahill, who represents most of Ulster County and Rhinebeck in Dutchess County, claims that the budget proposal rejects the Belleayre transfer._
http://www.watershedpost.com/2012/assembly-budget-gives-thumbs-down-belleayre-orda-transfer


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## legalskier (Mar 14, 2012)

*State senate supports moving Belleayre to ORDA; budget battle looms*
http://www.watershedpost.com/2012/state-senate-supports-moving-belleayre-orda-budget-battle-looms


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