# New Hampshire v Vermont



## SF1966 (May 9, 2012)

I may have an opportunity to relocate to Rutland, VT or the Plymouth NH area.  We have 3 active boys with one in high school.

Part of the reason to leave my current southeastern location is to live proximate to ski areas.  I know Killington & Pico are good, tell me about ski areas in New Hampshire, proximate to Plymouth, with pros and cons.


----------



## riverc0il (May 9, 2012)

I moved from MA to VT (St. Johnsbury) and then settled down in Plymouth. I can't help you with Rutland. But I can say I enjoy where we are in NH much more than we enjoyed St. Johnsbury. I don't have kids but from what I understand, Plymouth has a good school system. 

Don't choose based on ski areas unless being close to a specific one is really important to you (which it sounds like that is not the case). Both Rutland and Plymouth have the benefit of being sandwiched between Lakes and Mountains. Rutland is a little bigger and more congested. Plymouth is right off an Interstate which is good for access. 40 minutes to Concord, 1 hour to Manchester, and 1.5 hours to Boston so Plymouth is a bit closer to cities. 1:45 from Rutland to Burlington, consider that your mini-Boston alternative in VT (its a little slice of Cambridge in VT). White Mountains have tremendous four season including hiking. Rutland is close to the Dacks though, not as close as Plymouth to the Whites (literally on the doorstep). 

New Hampshire has no sales tax and no income tax. Property tax is a high percentage but land isn't too bad, especially if you don't live in Plymouth proper. Plymouth High School is regional so you can get the good school without actually living in town. Vermont has sales tax and income tax. Minor consideration but there it is.

You can get to any ski area in VT that matters in about 2.5 hours from Plymouth and there are good options within 40 minutes (Waterville, Loon, Ragged, and Cannon) and more good options just a little further out (Bretton Woods and Burke). Night skiing at Gunstock or Pat's are within an hour if you are into that sorta thing.

Here is something interesting to note: Rutland to Jay Peak is 3 Hours but it is only 2 Hours from Plymouth. Same distance from Smuggs and only a few minutes faster to Stowe. Everything else is closer to Rutland but if you love NoVT and especially Jay, ironically central NH is closer than much of central VT.

Vermont gets more snow on average than NH and I-93 resorts (Loon and Waterville) tend to be very crowded on weekends. Views at NH mountains are superior in every possible way. Only Stowe/Smuggs have anything close and even that really doesn't compare to the views in the Whites.

Killington is one of the first to open and last to close but Loon isn't too far behind. Cannon is the best in NH for challenge, I'd call it my home mountain. I always say that if Cannon got NoVT snow numbers, I'd never ski any where else. Rutland gets you fairly close to the MRV which offers Bush/MRG... far superior to Killington/Pico. About a tad over an hour north. 

If your only consideration is skiing, I'd do VT. Been there, done that. Skiing isn't my only consideration.

But all that said, the skiing should be a distant second or seventh on your list of comparisons. Love the area you live, not just the skiing. If you love the skiing but not the area, you'll find it isn't worth the move. I'd suggest extended vacations in both areas to try them out a little bit and try to avoid the touristy stuff and try to get a feel for the area itself.


----------



## 4aprice (May 9, 2012)

New Hampshire has great lakes since you won't be able to ski all year.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## SF1966 (May 9, 2012)

Excellent information.  Ski access is a small, however, important factor.  

New Hampshire seems like a real option to consider.  An important part of this move will be transitioning my freshman son who plays varsity baseball and football.  Sports are important to him and big deal down here...


----------



## Nick (May 9, 2012)

not from experience (I live in MA) but i would think in NH you are more "in the middle of it all" - quicker to get to VT, ME, the beaches along the coast, Boston, and so forth. Plus you have all the stuff to do in and around the white mountain national forest in Plymouth.


----------



## bobbutts (May 9, 2012)

I think a big difference is I-93 being right there in Plymouth vs. Rutland being about as far as you can get from an interstate in NE.  Also Okemo is a very short drive from Rutland, don't think anyone mentioned that yet.

Based on Rutland being kind of sprawly and trashy especially for Vermont, IMO, I'd go with cute college town Plymouth.


----------



## Puck it (May 9, 2012)

NH no state tax.  My vote.


----------



## riverc0il (May 9, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> I think a big difference is I-93 being right there in Plymouth vs. Rutland being about as far as you can get from an interstate in NE.


You think one hour is the furthest drive from an interstate in New England? There are much further places from the interstate in northern NH and much of Maine. Being right on an interstate is definitely important for me.


----------



## bobbutts (May 9, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> You think one hour is the furthest drive from an interstate in New England? There are much further places from the interstate in northern NH and much of Maine. Being right on an interstate is definitely important for me.



^populated areas of^


----------



## ScottySkis (May 10, 2012)

NH.  has some mountains that reminds me of the west and lots of liberal up their which I love, but north Vermont gets that sweet lake effect snow, both have a lot to offer.


----------



## Cannonball (May 10, 2012)

Great advice from Riverc0il as usual.  Except I don't fully agree with this part....



riverc0il said:


> New Hampshire has no sales tax and no income tax. Property tax is a high percentage but land isn't too bad, especially if you don't live in Plymouth proper. Plymouth High School is regional so you can get the good school without actually living in town. Vermont has sales tax and income tax. Minor consideration but there it is.



No state income tax in NH is a pretty huge consideration!!  And not every town in NH has high property taxes.  You could find yourself in town near Plymouth with reasonable property taxes and not pay state income tax.  For example: We just (last week) bought a house in Lincoln, NH.  My wife will become a NH resident.  Her savings in state income tax alone will cover over 85% of our mortgage.  That's not minor.


----------



## riverc0il (May 10, 2012)

Cannonball said:


> No state income tax in NH is a pretty huge consideration!!  And not every town in NH has high property taxes.  You could find yourself in town near Plymouth with reasonable property taxes and not pay state income tax.  For example: We just (last week) bought a house in Lincoln, NH.  My wife will become a NH resident.  Her savings in state income tax alone will cover over 85% of our mortgage.  That's not minor.


I guess if you are making big bucks or coming from a state with a big income tax it is a big issue. My VT income taxes were significantly less than my property tax in NH. I rented in VT and bought in NH so it isn't apples to apples, so perhaps I don't see it as much of an issue.

I still don't think that alone should be a major factor. If someone was on the fence and equally split, it could be a the straw that tips the scales. Otherwise, its only money. Being happy with where you live is a far superior issue. But I would not have mentioned it if I didn't think it wasn't worth at least minimal consideration.


----------



## SIKSKIER (May 10, 2012)

*riverCoil nailed it but....*

Nothing to see here.Move along.:flame:


----------



## Vortex (May 10, 2012)

Plymouth is a really nice area. I like the area more in the summer than the winter.  Many nice places to eat. The Common man Chain locations.   My Campton Taxes are very reasonable IMO.

 Great hiking in the southern Whites, Great lakes, skiing is great. You can ski central and northerern nh, western Maine and the Northeast Kindom of VT in a managable time. No income tax and a nice highway system.

I grew up in Vermont and am very happy in NH. Wish I could move furthur north into the Whites.

I moved North To Maine to ski.  Still have property here.  This is an area 
I am condidering having my retirement home


----------



## xwhaler (May 10, 2012)

I'd also add that NH has a signicantly better job market. You sound like you have a job that is giving you the option to re locate which is great.
However, VT is pretty limited in my opinion for larger companies. Burlington is a decent sized city but there are not many big employers in VT.

NH has some large companies in Manchester, Seacoast NH, Nashua/Salem area.

We live in Epping which is centrally located enough to allow me to commute to Northern MA for work everyday and my wife goes to Manchester/Tilton for work.

You prob have a great job now but maybe a consideration should be future jobs or opportunities both for yourself and your kids once they get thru college.
I've heard lots of young ppl move out of VT due to the poor job market.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 10, 2012)

I worked for three years in Rutland.  Sorry, but it's a hole.  Vermont is much more expensive than NH and the salaries are lower.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (May 10, 2012)

Also if I were looking at Rutland, I would consider Lebanon, NH area instead.  Job market is solid, plenty of high paying jobs (I don't know what you do), you have Dartmouth, DHMC, Hypertherm, Alice Peck Day, etc which give the Upper Valley (Lebanon, Claremont, Hanover, Lyme, WRJ, etc) a fairly stable economy, no income tax, affordable housing if you look for it, cultural events at the HOP, Leb Opera House, etc.  Even though I lost my job at TomTom, I am one of the few in the area and would still highly recommend the area.

My two cents


----------



## Gnarcissaro (May 10, 2012)

I went to school at PSU and have been living in the greater Plymouth area (Ashland, Campton, Thornton, Holderness) for the 6 years post-grad, currently in Campton. Plymouth is a vibrant small town with the college. The new "Flying Monkey" is open and attracts some good musical acts. If you live in a town like Thornton the property taxes are a little lower than Holderness or Plymouth.

I really enjoy the outdoor lifestyle year round. Many good shred choices nearby and not a bad drive to VT or Maine resorts (2 - 4hrs depending.) Backcountry options available closeby when the snow is good and in the spring. 

When not in ski season I go right to hiking, biking, and kayaking the many great lakes, ponds and rivers. Again, the drive to VT and ME isn't bad to do these same activities. 

It's been said the drive to Boston isn't bad and Concord/Manchester are easy. 

My only experience with RUTLAND is it being my least favorite town stop on my Long Trail thru-hike.


----------



## xwhaler (May 10, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Also if I were looking at Rutland, I would consider Lebanon, NH area instead.  Job market is solid, plenty of high paying jobs (I don't know what you do), you have Dartmouth, DHMC, Hypertherm, Alice Peck Day, etc which give the Upper Valley (Lebanon, Claremont, Hanover, Lyme, WRJ, etc) a fairly stable economy, no income tax, affordable housing if you look for it, cultural events at the HOP, Leb Opera House, etc.  Even though I lost my job at TomTom, I am one of the few in the area and would still highly recommend the area.
> 
> My two cents



+1       I don't know much abt the UV but I've told me wife that if I re locate anywhere in NH it would be to the Lebanon area. Seems the best job market north of Manchester in the state.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (May 10, 2012)

xwhaler said:


> +1       I don't know much abt the UV but I've told me wife that if I re locate anywhere in NH it would be to the Lebanon area. Seems the best job market north of Manchester in the state.



If I recall, Lebanon/Hanover/Hartford population grows from it's normal 25,000+/- during non buisness hours to something around 50,000+ during work hours.  Pretty good indication of a solid jobs market.


----------



## riverc0il (May 10, 2012)

xwhaler said:


> You prob have a great job now but maybe a consideration should be future jobs or opportunities both for yourself and your kids once they get thru college.
> I've heard lots of young ppl move out of VT due to the poor job market.


Given that the OP has already selected two very specific towns, I'm betting one of the three following things: the decision is between positions at Castleton or PSU, healthcare position, or retail management. There isn't much in Plymouth aside from education, healthcare, and very limited retail. Given the clear choice between two different areas, I'm betting education related offerings. 

I came here by way of PSU. Once you get a decent job in this area, you're set unless you really screw up. Recent college grads without experience are generally fleeing to Concord, Manchester, and Boston Metro.


----------



## witch hobble (May 10, 2012)

Maybe he is a CVS or Tractor Supply manager. :-D

My 2 cents:  I live in Plymouth.  I have a good friend who lives in Rutland.  They are both regional service centers, Rutland serving a larger area than Plymouth.

I really don't think Rutland compares all that unfavaorably to other small cities of similar size.  There is a lot of sprawl, but nice views of the Taconics to the west and the Green Mtn spine to the east.  Lots of good recreation in all directions.  It is most definitely not quintessential VT as people picture it.  So if that is what you are after, you will be disappointed.

Plymouth is the perfect size town for me.  It's residential and downtown business zone is removed from the commercial strip out on the TMH.  A few restaurants and coffee shops.  A few cultural attractions.  Very pretty campus.  Fully walkable from one end of town to another.  Places close by to dissappear into the woods.  It does have it's problems, like all communities.

There is a lot of broken glass and crushed Natty Light cans, paper plates and ranch dressing dip containers.  Live free or die!

As far as football goes, Plymouth Regional H.S. is a divisional powerhouse, their longtime coach one of the winningest in the land.  In 2010 the team actually lost some games for the first time in about 5 years.  Lots of tearful 17 year old boys who had never lost before in shock.  Personally not into the "futbol Americano", but it is taken pretty serious at all levels in town.  The Peewee games have announcers up in the box broadcasting over the PA "Ball carried by #32 Joey Currier.  Tackled by #76 Reggie Humperdink"  Pop Warner was more of a silent affair back in the day.


----------



## SF1966 (May 10, 2012)

The information throughout this thread has been excellent. 

My wife has researced Plymouth and surrounding towns and has feels this is the better option than Rutland.  We live in a city with a state university and she grew up in a college town.  The school size, outdoor recreation, and tax codes are very favorable to us.

Rutland would provide a more than adequate option and far exceeds the quality of life in our current area.  We would likely target one of the adjoining communities if this ends up being the better choice.  The initial lean to Rutland was based on the size and transition of schools.  I did not realize the high school in Plymouth was a "highway" type HS and has the student body size, programs, and athletics that we desire.  

We will visit both areas soon if the job materializes, as proposed, as my wife has not been to the New England area in over 20 years.

As far as baseball, does anyone know how the high school program are at Plymouth or Rutland?  Do they play a legit season in high school or is it a travel ball area?


----------



## Nick (May 11, 2012)

what is property tax in NH on average? 

Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?


----------



## WWF-VT (May 11, 2012)

Here's an old Mike Barnicle column on VT vs. NH 

http://boulter.com/nh/barnicle.html


----------



## SkiFanE (May 11, 2012)

Nick said:


> what is property tax in NH on average?
> 
> Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?



Well..here in Mass it varies greatly from town to town, imagine same in NH.  But my sense is, from family/friends I've known that live there, is it is higher in general.  And then has fees tacked on.  I know in my house, after I pay my property tax and auto excise I pay $0 in fees, ever...no extracurricular school fees, no bus fees, nothing.  

Also..unless you work in NH, you pay income tax to the state where you physically work.  People that live in NH and work in MA...makes no sense, they pay MA income tax.  

But...I want to live where I want to live, and taxes would be the least of my concern (unless I was so close to the edge it mattered), but that's just me...it's only money, and if you like a town/area, so what...you may like it better b/c of how it's taxed anyway lol.  You don't get nice playing fields at schools, clean sidewalks and maintained roads unless someone pays, right?!


----------



## deadheadskier (May 11, 2012)

Nick said:


> what is property tax in NH on average?
> 
> Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?



It varies greatly in both states.

In Vermont, "Gold towns"  (most ski/tourism towns with a lot of money) have higher tax rates as a portion of their taxes are used to fund schools in lower income areas.

In NH the tax rates tend to vary based upon property values (higher values = lower rates) and the amount of commercial property in town.  If the town is primarily residential with minimal commercial activity, the tax rates tend to be higher.

In my town, the property tax rate is $25.31 per $1000.  We fall in the mostly residential / limited commercial category.  

So property taxes on a $300K home would run you about $7600/year in my town.  Property values are quite low though.  It would cost you $500K+ for a similar quality home in the Boston suburbs. 

That tax rate seems like a lot to most people, but keep in mind if you have a household income of $100K in VT, you'll pay that much in income taxes and then have to pay property taxes on top of that.  

Even with high property tax rates, NH is easily the most tax friendly state in New England.


----------



## Angus (May 11, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Here's an old Mike Barnicle column on VT vs. NH
> 
> http://boulter.com/nh/barnicle.html



Mike Barnicle is a putz


----------



## benwhiteskis (May 11, 2012)

NH, you are closer to Tux. 'Nuff said


----------



## Cannonball (May 11, 2012)

Nick said:


> what is property tax in NH on average?
> 
> Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?



"on average" isn't the really right way to look at it.  It varies by town, so you need to compare actual towns that you might want to live in.  Related to this thread, here are some examples for Rutland and Plymouth, plus close-by towns with lower rates:

Plymouth, NH. Rate 2.125%. Tax on $300K house = $6,375
Holderness, NH. Rate 1.316%. Tax on $300K = $3,948

Rutland, VT. Rate 2.35%.  Tax on $300K = $7,050
Mendon, VT. Rate 1.53%.  Tax on $300K = $4,590

So, pretty comparable.  But that doesn't really tell the whole story either because it assumes that equivalent homes have the same values in each place.  2 better metrics are property taxes as a percentage of median income or property taxes as a percent of median house prices.  NH and VT are both in the top 10 worst states in the country by both of these measures.  So again, mostly a wash.

But again, those are averages.  You need to consider your own circumstances.  You threw out $300K as the house price example.  How about Family income (2-earners) of $150K as an example.  (probably the minimum you'd need to get the $300K house).  VT income tax rate (for the example bracket) 7.8% = $11,700.  NH = 0.  

So I don't buy the argument that property taxes in NH are somehow a trade-off against lack of income tax.  Certainly not when comparing it against VT which generally has the 4th highest income tax rate in the country and fairly comparable property tax rates to NH. 

By these calcs living in Rutland vs Plymouth would cost an extra $675 in prop tax + $11,700 in income tax.  There's a $12,000 annual budget for skiing around your new home town of Plymouth!!!

edit:  Damn in the time in took me to write this DHS answered the question.  The good news is, we said basically the same thing!


----------



## riverc0il (May 11, 2012)

I didn't see that the OP was looking for a $300k house. That is a heck of a lot of house around here. So if the OP is making bank to afford a $300k house, then income tax is probably a very important impact.

I think for most people, it is a lot less of an issue. Obviously, the more you make, the more income tax is going to hurt. And the less you make, the less house you buy and lower property tax you pay. Though as noted above, the variance by town is astounding.

Oops, just noticed that was in response to Nick on the $300k issue, not the OP...


----------



## riverc0il (May 11, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> Here's an old Mike Barnicle column on VT vs. NH
> 
> http://boulter.com/nh/barnicle.html


Wow. That is the most inane thing I have read in a long time. Makes Fox News look like professional journalism. It is ironic that many of the things Barnicle faults NH for are actually the same or "worse" (by his standards) in Vermont. He would probably know that if he visited more of Vermont than just Burlington (tongue in cheek assumption based on his writing and clear bias; i.e. "exceptions" for NH liberal/college towns). I always laugh and cringe at over idealized romanticism of Vermont. It really is a great state for many reasons. But there is much more to the place than what most tourists allow themselves to see.

I know it was meant as a humor piece. But part of any good humor is at least a little slice of truth and reality. So it fails miserably.


----------



## Cannonball (May 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I didn't see that the OP was looking for a $300k house. That is a heck of a lot of house around here. So if the OP is making bank to afford a $300k house, then income tax is probably a very important impact.
> 
> I think for most people, it is a lot less of an issue. Obviously, the more you make, the more income tax is going to hurt. And the less you make, the less house you buy and lower property tax you pay. Though as noted above, the variance by town is astounding.
> 
> Oops, just noticed that was in response to Nick on the $300k issue, not the OP...



Yeah, I thought $300K was kind high for those regions and $150K salary probably is too, but was trying to keep it in line with Nick's example.  But as you say, income and home purchase tend to stay in proportion.  So I think the example holds up at any level. 

Ideally, you'd flip the whole example on it's head.  Continue to make the $150K income...but buy a $100K house in a NH town with a low tax rate.  Then your income tax savings might _almost_ pay your entire mortgage AND property taxes.


----------



## riverc0il (May 11, 2012)

But who is going to but a 100k home when then are making 150k a year? That is unrealistic. 

The thing is that things don't stay in "realistic" proportion. The less you make, the lower your income taxes. The lower your income taxes, the less difference not having to pay them. Someone earning $20k in MA, CT, or RI is going to have minimal tax savings compared to someone making $200k and getting the highest rate. Or to put it another way, the difference for the person only earning $20k/year isn't going to amount to a major purchase or finance or savings opportunity. If someone making $200k can move to NH and retain their salary, they could easily take the savings difference and buy a new car or pay a portion or all of a mortgage, depending on what they buy. Someone making $20k not paying state income tax is going to have a little extra room to breathe and can put the money saved towards car insurance or something.


----------



## WWF-VT (May 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Wow. That is the most inane thing I have read in a long time. Makes Fox News look like professional journalism. It is ironic that many of the things Barnicle faults NH for are actually the same or "worse" (by his standards) in Vermont. He would probably know that if he visited more of Vermont than just Burlington (tongue in cheek assumption based on his writing and clear bias; i.e. "exceptions" for NH liberal/college towns). I always laugh and cringe at over idealized romanticism of Vermont. It really is a great state for many reasons. But there is much more to the place than what most tourists allow themselves to see.
> 
> I know it was meant as a humor piece. But part of any good humor is at least a little slice of truth and reality. So it fails miserably.



Barnicle ultimately failed misserably when he got canned from The Boston Globe for lying and plagiarizing


----------



## Cannonball (May 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> But who is going to but a 100k home when then are making 150k a year? That is unrealistic.



People who don't like debt.  It happens;-)



riverc0il said:


> The thing is that things don't stay in "realistic" proportion. The less you make, the lower your income taxes. The lower your income taxes, the less difference not having to pay them. Someone earning $20k in MA, CT, or RI is going to have minimal tax savings compared to someone making $200k and getting the highest rate. Or to put it another way, the difference for the person only earning $20k/year isn't going to amount to a major purchase or finance or savings opportunity. If someone making $200k can move to NH and retain their salary, they could easily take the savings difference and buy a new car or pay a portion or all of a mortgage, depending on what they buy. Someone making $20k not paying state income tax is going to have a little extra room to breathe and can put the money saved towards car insurance or something.



Right, for those 10-fold differences in income that you use as an example that is probably true.  Or in your example awhile back: you didn't notice the VT property tax much.....because you were renting!  At the $20K level people probably aren't thinking about home purchases, and therefore property tax, at all.   But I assume the OP isn't going to be relocated from the Southeast to the Northeast with a family of 5 for a $20K salary.  So the examples have to fall in the middle.  

That's why I mentioned state property tax as a proportion of income. Depending on whose stats you read, NH and VT are the 2nd & 3rd worst states for that or 2nd and 9th.  Either way, both pretty bad.  AND their property tax rates are pretty comparable.  But VT has one of the highest income taxes in the country and NH has the lowest.  So call property tax a wash and take the income tax benefit in NH... even if it only allows you to pay the car insurance or something.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> So if the OP is making bank to afford a $300k house, then income tax is probably a very important impact.
> 
> I think for most people, it is a lot less of an issue. ..



disagree.  I think for lower income people, the income tax savings of living in NH is MORE of an issue/benefit than it is for higher income tax individuals. 

Someone making $50K a year in Vermont is going to pay $3400 a year in state income tax.  Someone making $150K a year in Vermont would have an income tax bill of $11,700.   I think saving $3400 a year for someone making $50K will have a much greater impact on their financial life than the $150K earner saving $11,700.


----------



## nelsapbm (May 11, 2012)

Keep in mind that in Vermont, if you make less than $90K you get a property tax rebate. Considering average salaries in VT are much lower than 90k there are a heck of a lot of people who don't pay as much property tax as someone from the outside looking in thinks they do. 
http://www.vermontrealestatetoday.com/newsletter/vtrealestatetaxes.html


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (May 11, 2012)

Nick said:


> what is property tax in NH on average?
> 
> Let's say you have a $300k house in both places (market value). What's the difference between NH and VT?



NH property taxes/overall town taxes can go form one end of the spectrum to the other.  Generally a place that is more wealthy has lower taxes, but housing prices are much higher.  I live in Claremont...very blue collar, has a fair amount of commuters to Leb, Hanover, etc.  However, Claremont has the highest property tax rates/town taxes in the state.  Why, well there is very little industrial and commercial tax base.  I have a house that is probably valued at around 150k and we over 5k a year....I think overall it is $40 per $1000.  Go to Lebanon, the same house with the same land probably runs about 200k + with half+/- the taxes, go to Hanover and the same house probably around a half million with even lower taxes.


----------



## SF1966 (May 11, 2012)

Y'all are good.  Until wife get job, year 3, 100k annual.  Will purchase less than $400, target is $300,000 and put $150 down...


----------



## Edd (May 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Wow. That is the most inane thing I have read in a long time. Makes Fox News look like professional journalism.



There is no greater insult.



WWF-VT said:


> Barnicle ultimately failed misserably when he got canned from The Boston Globe for lying and plagiarizing



I had no idea about this.  He always seemed ok on Morning Joe.  Just did some brief searching and what I found is not good.  I hate being disillusioned.  And that NH vs. VT piece sucked too.


----------



## UVSHTSTRM (May 11, 2012)

Barnicle is a complete dope always has been.  One thing is clear he has really never been to either state....or he at the very least got as far has the Hampton tolls and never really ventured into New Hampshire nor did he venture into Brattleboro, Rutland, WRJ to see that there is in fact a seedy side to Vermont.  I would love to see if there were any type of op ed or negative feedback to this column.  One more thing, he has never met a true old time Vermonter, they like many in NH and ME have wicked New England accents/speach.


----------



## riverc0il (May 11, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> One more thing, he has never met a true old time Vermonter, they like many in NH and ME have wicked New England accents/speach.


Truth. NH has a huge amount of cross contamination of accents from MA. Many rural Vermonters have amongst the thickest accents in all of New England.


----------



## SF1966 (May 11, 2012)

UVSHTSTRM said:


> Barnicle is a complete dope always has been.  One thing is clear he has really never been to either state....or he at the very least got as far has the Hampton tolls and never really ventured into New Hampshire nor did he venture into Brattleboro, Rutland, WRJ to see that there is in fact a seedy side to Vermont.  I would love to see if there were any type of op ed or negative feedback to this column.  One more thing, he has never met a true old time Vermonter, they like many in NH and ME have wicked New England accents/speach.



nm


----------



## abc (May 11, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> But who is going to but a 100k home when then are making 150k a year? That is unrealistic.


Depends on what kind of house that 100k buys!

What kind of thinking is that to think one has to buy a house 3 times the annual income, regardless of the size of family and the house? 

I didn't grow up American so I don't automatically prescribe to this "buy the biggest house you can afford" concept. There's a lot of other use for the money. Season pass, for example. Or maybe a trip out west or to Europe for the family every other year? Or summer down to South America. Or maybe save up the money to retire early!


----------



## snowmonster (May 11, 2012)

And now for something completely different:


----------



## riverc0il (May 12, 2012)

abc said:


> Depends on what kind of house that 100k buys!
> 
> What kind of thinking is that to think one has to buy a house 3 times the annual income, regardless of the size of family and the house?
> 
> I didn't grow up American so I don't automatically prescribe to this "buy the biggest house you can afford" concept. There's a lot of other use for the money. Season pass, for example. Or maybe a trip out west or to Europe for the family every other year? Or summer down to South America. Or maybe save up the money to retire early!


First of all, it was a generalization. Second, I think you'll find it to be mostly true that people that make a lot of money like to spend it. I'm not judging. I don't know any one pulling in three figures living in a $100k house. I'm not saying there aren't a few people out there pulling in three figures, driving a rust bucket, socking everything into retirement, and living in a trailer park. But it is pretty unusual. I'm all for saving for retirement and I have what I consider a good strategy. But carpe diem! You can't take it with you. And all that jazz.


----------



## SkiFanE (May 12, 2012)

Edd said:


> There is no greater insult.
> 
> 
> 
> I had no idea about this.  He always seemed ok on Morning Joe.  Just did some brief searching and what I found is not good.  I hate being disillusioned.  And that NH vs. VT piece sucked too.



His kid was a close friend of mine in HS and college. He's an awesome writer, and really liked the guy, great dad.. I can say his writing did not always project his personality/ beliefs.  Didn't read this article yet, but you gotta take his stuff tongue in cheek from a Bostonian perspective.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Second, I think you'll find it to be mostly true that people that make a lot of money like to spend it. .


Spend it, yes. Spend all of it in a too large house, not neccessarily! 

I'm not talking about trailer park living though. I worked in the aeronautic industry briefly. Quite a number of guys who spend their money on planes! Aeronautic engineers pull in pretty nice pay check. But not enough to have BOTH a big house and a different plane every few years!  Many settle for more moderately priced house. A lot of those aeronautic engineers are not born and breed American. That might be the source of different mindset. 

I got rides on private planes to skiing twice, kind of nice I have to say. Beats a big house and 2.3 kids.


----------



## BLESS (May 15, 2012)

clearly you dont have kids, if you think a private plane ride beats them. The hardest yet best thing Ive ever done in my life is raising my kids...... Anyway, I vote NH.


----------



## abc (May 15, 2012)

BLESS said:


> clearly you dont have kids, if you think a private plane ride beats them. The hardest yet best thing Ive ever done in my life is raising my kids...... Anyway, I vote NH.


Riding in a private plane isn't hard at all, just nice.


----------



## steamboat1 (May 15, 2012)

Well at least VT. & NH agree upon their border line.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...025/1095/Vermont-N-H-agree-again-border-line-


----------



## BLESS (May 16, 2012)

abc said:


> Riding in a private plane isn't hard at all, just nice.



yup....hopefully so nice that some day you can brag about it your children...or a bunch of a strangers on a ski forum


----------



## ScottySkis (May 16, 2012)

BLESS said:


> yup....hopefully so nice that some day you can brag about it your children...or a bunch of a strangers on a ski forum


I don't think he's bragging more sharing fun experiences.


----------



## BLESS (May 17, 2012)

lol...I know.  Im just bustin balls.


----------



## bigbog (May 17, 2012)

Think *riv* has talked a little about the _kind_ of people I just love distancing myself from...in my leisure time:-D  ...but NH's setting is pretty unique...


----------



## stomachdoc (May 23, 2012)

We own property in Waterville Valley, and spend quite a bit of time in Plymouth.  Really nice town, great to have a University so close; the Silver Center has quite a bit of cultural stuff going on.  Plymouth's location makes it easy to access the nearby lakes (Newfound is a JEWEL).  Next time you are in Plymouth, have dinner at Six Burner Bistro......


----------



## Geoff (May 24, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I guess if you are making big bucks or coming from a state with a big income tax it is a big issue. My VT income taxes were significantly less than my property tax in NH. I rented in VT and bought in NH so it isn't apples to apples, so perhaps I don't see it as much of an issue.
> 
> I still don't think that alone should be a major factor. If someone was on the fence and equally split, it could be a the straw that tips the scales. Otherwise, its only money. Being happy with where you live is a far superior issue. But I would not have mentioned it if I didn't think it wasn't worth at least minimal consideration.



Vermont has a fairly stiff graduated income tax.   Your income above $34.5K is taxed at 6.8% or 7.8%.   With Act 68 state school tax and their strange & wonderful formula that penalizes towns that tuition-out most of their students, Vermont property tax can be higher than most places in New Hampshire.   If you make no money and rent, Vermont is great.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, property tax rates in NH vary wildly from town to town.   In towns with a lot of very expensive homes, vacation homes and/or commercial property, the tax rates are extremely low.   A number of towns near ski resorts and on lakes fall into that category.

For example, Plymouth is $18.74, Holderness is $12.96, Lincoln is $9.11, and Moultonborough is $7.7 per thousand valuation.   Those towns are only a few miles apart.

To give you some idea of how much it varies, New Castle has a $4.70 per thousand valuation property tax rate.  Claremont is $30.45 per thousand valuation.


----------



## Geoff (May 24, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> Truth. NH has a huge amount of cross contamination of accents from MA. Many rural Vermonters have amongst the thickest accents in all of New England.



Yeah.   Senator Bernie Sanders has the thickest Northeast Kingdom accent ever.   

Southern New Hampshire is a metro-Boston suburb.   A very large slice of the population south of Concord was either born in Massholia or has parents/grandparents from there.   The lakes and ski towns have always been mostly the haven of metro-Bostonians.


----------



## riverc0il (May 24, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Yeah.   Senator Bernie Sanders has the thickest Northeast Kingdom accent ever.


:roll: Of course someone from Brooklyn, NY isn't going to have a rural Vermont accent. But walk into any country store in the NEK 10 miles away from the highway and the accent is pretty thick.


----------

