# Most crowded N.E. areas?



## legalskier (Jan 3, 2012)

Have you ever felt like you were skiing in a sardine can on the slopes? I mean scary crowded, like your personal well being was threatened.







So, which areas do you avoid and why? Which days?  What are your worst stories about crowded areas?


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

Any blue trail on a weekend, after about 10AM when the hordes descend.  Scraped and Icy.  Made worse if no blacks are open, or only run from the top is blue.

I often find blacks are in better shape and easier to ski than the blues.

I've found blues particularly bad at Jay and Stowe on Saturdays, but that's just because I'm there a lot.


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## C-Rex (Jan 3, 2012)

Mt. Snow has to be the worst.  On a busy weekend everything but the North Face is jammed.  And even that gets busy when the snow is good.

I really think the new 6-pack is only going to make things worse.  With that and the Grand Summit quad running, they are dumping 10 people at a time at the top.  I'd rather wait in line and have some room on the trail than get up the mountain fast and have to dodge children and beginners the whole way down.


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> Mt. Snow has to be the worst.  On a busy weekend everything but the North Face is jammed.  And even that gets busy when the snow is good.
> 
> I really think the new 6-pack is only going to make things worse.  With that and the Grand Summit quad running, they are dumping 10 people at a time at the top.  I'd rather wait in line and have some room on the trail than get up the mountain fast and have to dodge children and beginners the whole way down.



Agreed.  Except when it's blowing from the N.  The snow is great, but the ride is loooong (on a windy day).  Then again, so is the single chair...


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## 4aprice (Jan 3, 2012)

The advantages of having a decent local hill.  I tend to avoid most areas between Christmas and Presidents week on the weekends.  Back load most of my trips to New England and out west to March and April when silly season is over.  Oh I ski every weekend but unless I'm on the road for my sons racing I generally stay at the homestead.  There I can get first tracks between 7:30 and 8:30 (pass holders only) and usually ski in relative solitude till about 11.  Then even on the weekends where attendence can reach up to 14,000 (yes 14,000)  I have my little secret routine which allows me to lap one of my favorite bump runs without dealing with much of the masses.  The end of Presidents week we have been known to sit out on the deck with a drink and wave bye bye to the tourists.  

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## oakapple (Jan 3, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> Mt. Snow has to be the worst.  On a busy weekend everything but the North Face is jammed.  And even that gets busy when the snow is good.



Mount Snow isn't a problem when it's fully open. There are _a lot_ of ways to get down, and you can usually find less crowded trails. Of course, like most ski areas, Mount Snow is nowhere near fully open yet.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 3, 2012)

we left Windham early last year after my 8yr old was crashed into by a racer (the race finish was half way up a beginner area, after the racers crossed the line, they flew down to the lift in a beginner area) no patrol to be found, we went in a filed a formal complaint...never felt to scared for me or my family before...only reason we went was we had free lodging and free tix...will never go back..


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## C-Rex (Jan 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> Mount Snow isn't a problem when it's fully open. There are _a lot_ of ways to get down, and you can usually find less crowded trails. Of course, like most ski areas, Mount Snow is nowhere near fully open yet.




Most ski areas have places to hide, as does Mount Snow.  That's not the point.  On a busy day, I bet they have more people per acre of terrain than anywhere else.

I'm not knocking Mt. Snow, BTW.  Well, I guess I am a little.  But I love the place.  I've had some of my best days on the snow there.  They just get very crowded during peak times and I feel it's made worse on the actual slopes by how much uphill capacity they have.  I try to stay away from the peak days and go midweek so it's no big deal.  I'm glad they make good money during those times.  It helps support times like this when they need to spend a lot of money making snow. :beer:


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2012)

Just about every ski area I have been to can have busy days and other days that are empty. Saturday's at MRG are crazy but week days are not. I have waited in lines at Wildcat for 25 minutes but have also skied on. Same as Sunday River, Killington, Jay Cannon etc.

Well I never waited in line at Burke.
But never skied on at Mt Snow on the front side but haven't skied there much.


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## oakapple (Jan 3, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> Most ski areas have places to hide, as does Mount Snow.  That's not the point.  On a busy day, I bet they have more people per acre of terrain than anywhere else.


I have no way of measuring that (paging Dr. Jeff), but I think layout has a lot to do with the _perceived_ crowdedness. At Hunter Mountain, for example, there is only one non-black route down from the summit (Belt Parkway), so everyone who is not comfortable on black diamonds _must_ take that route. If Hunter had the identical acreage, but with more than one non-black route down from the summit, the _perception_ of crowdedness would be entirely different.

Mount Snow has a similar problem, with just one principal green route down from the summit (Long John/Little John combo). And blue skiers use LJ too, since a number of useful blue trails have their entry points from there. This is the Achilles Heel of Mount Snow's layout.

Of course, until last year Mount Snow had only one HSQ from the base to the summit, and the alternative (the Summit Local) was a slow, cold, 15-minute ride. The new six-pack is meant to solve that problem. It might be a bit of a scrum at the very top, but from there you have a lot of options, unless you're a green skier.


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## Tooth (Jan 3, 2012)

4aprice said:


> The advantages of having a decent local hill.  I tend to avoid most areas between Christmas and Presidents week on the weekends.  Back load most of my trips to New England and out west to March and April when silly season is over.  Oh I ski every weekend but unless I'm on the road for my sons racing I generally stay at the homestead.  There I can get first tracks between 7:30 and 8:30 (pass holders only) and usually ski in relative solitude till about 11.  Then even on the weekends where attendence can reach up to 14,000 (yes 14,000)  I have my little secret routine which allows me to lap one of my favorite bump runs without dealing with much of the masses.  The end of Presidents week we have been known to sit out on the deck with a drink and wave bye bye to the tourists.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



14000? OMG. Is that at Camelback? Are their tourists there? I used to live in the Poconos. Never thought of ski tourists in those parts. I thought most tourists came north. Holy crap. I wont complain about Sugarloaf being crowded anymore.


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## oakapple (Jan 3, 2012)

Tooth said:


> 14000? OMG. Is that at Camelback? Are their tourists there? I used to live in the Poconos. Never thought of ski tourists in those parts. I thought most tourists came north. Holy crap. I wont complain about Sugarloaf being crowded anymore.



I think he was being sarcastic. Most of those 14,000 are not tourists in the usual sense of the word. The bulk of them are from the area. I would call them occasional skiers: people who ski once or a few times a season, rather than every week or almost every week. There is a "lodging" link on the Camelback website, but I'll bet that most people staying there do not live very far away. Nothing against Camelback, which is a nice "local-plus" hill, but if you were prepared to travel a significant distance for a ski holiday, there are FAR better choices, simply in terms of the size of a resort and the amount of terrain available.


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## 4aprice (Jan 3, 2012)

Tooth said:


> 14000? OMG. Is that at Camelback? Are their tourists there? I used to live in the Poconos. Never thought of ski tourists in those parts. I thought most tourists came north. Holy crap. I wont complain about Sugarloaf being crowded anymore.



Seen it twice like that (parked down the access road).  You must have never taken a spin through the parking lots.  You see plates from not only NY, NJ, PA but plenty of Del, MD and Va too.  That's a 3-4 + hour trip for those people.  Mt Airy Casino brings alot of people in too.  I'm glad I live where I do, that Camelback is a local option and I have Vt to go to to be a tourist myself.  Very vibrant weekend scene at CBK.  

As far as the loaf, feel lucky, its too far for me here in the NY metro area and I'm sure most others too. (lots of options closer too). 

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## steamboat1 (Jan 3, 2012)

Most crowded?

The line for the single chair at MRG after a dump. Doesn't matter what day of the week it is.


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## 4aprice (Jan 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I think he was being sarcastic. Most of those 14,000 are not tourists in the usual sense of the word. The bulk of them are from the area. *I would call them occasional skiers: people who ski once or a few times a season, rather than every week or almost every week. *There is a "lodging" link on the Camelback website, but I'll bet that most people staying there do not live very far away. Nothing against Camelback, which is a nice "local-plus" hill, but *if you were prepared to travel a significant distance for a ski holiday, there are FAR better choices, simply in terms of the size of a resort and the amount of terrain available.*



Your much kinder and eloquent in your words then I am Oakapple.  The 2nd bolded part is true as well.  I will only say that Camelback is and has been a great home area for the last 10 years.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## bigbog (Jan 3, 2012)

Only thing I think the Loaf can rank in is, like Uphillclimber's experience @SR, greatest *difference* between the weekend and weekDAY crowds..with midweek crowd being non-existent....and Saturdays can be busy, but not packed, on the lower mountain @SL.


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## Bumpsis (Jan 3, 2012)

A lot ( if not most) of  ski areas on Saturadys when conditions are good, will be crowded. In NH, those among most crowded  (my personal experiences) will be Sunapee, Waterville, Loon, Attitash. That's why I won't even bother to ski on a Saturday, unless the conditions are just really fantastic (good 10-12 inches of fresh on top of a well esatblished base). Even then I won't go to the above listed places.


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## drjeff (Jan 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I have no way of measuring that (paging Dr. Jeff), but I think layout has a lot to do with the _perceived_ crowdedness. At Hunter Mountain, for example, there is only one non-black route down from the summit (Belt Parkway), so everyone who is not comfortable on black diamonds _must_ take that route. If Hunter had the identical acreage, but with more than one non-black route down from the summit, the _perception_ of crowdedness would be entirely different.
> 
> Mount Snow has a similar problem, with just one principal green route down from the summit (Long John/Little John combo). And blue skiers use LJ too, since a number of useful blue trails have their entry points from there. This is the Achilles Heel of Mount Snow's layout.
> 
> Of course, until last year Mount Snow had only one HSQ from the base to the summit, and the alternative (the Summit Local) was a slow, cold, 15-minute ride. The new six-pack is meant to solve that problem. It might be a bit of a scrum at the very top, but from there you have a lot of options, unless you're a green skier.



Total layout thing, especially this season so far.  Pretty much with the new lift, a greater percentage of folks are skiing/riding Mount Snow top to bottom than ever before.  This was witnessed perfectly last weekend, where in the past the lines for the Grand Summit and Canyon quad were usually pretty equal in length, and now the line for Canyon Quad is noticeably shorter, so that's putting more "stress" on what for most skiers/riders has been only 2 basic ways off the summit (Long/Little John and Cascade - sure the Northface has been available, but most folks won't be headed that way), and that put a big density of people in a small space.  I will say that this past weekend, it wasn't quite the debacle I thought that it might be with BOTH the Bluebird and Grand Summit running, and the Grand Summit was going up with people on most, if not all chairs while it was running for a good portion of the day.

In one sense, what has suprised me so far is the desire of many to want to wait for the Bluebird (and this goes for regular passholders and day ticket buyers alike).  In the big scheme of things, I'd bet that as the season progresses during busy times, that while the ride up the Bluebird is about 10 minutes shorter than the old Summit local, the total time folks will spend getting from base to summit will be about the same since so many people seem to want to wait to ride this lift (and not just on cold, windy days)

Once some more terrain gets open especially now since Exhibition is open off the top and hopefully in the next few days to a week or so both South Bowl and the Sunbrook area will be opening, that will go a LONG ways to spreading out the density of folks being deposited at the top over a much greater number of acres in what seems to be key, CLOSE, OPEN choices to the top of a lift.  Since I think that we can all agree, that a big portion of the masses will tend to head for the 1st or 2nd open trail that they come across once they get off the lift


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## KevinF (Jan 3, 2012)

Nobody's mentioned Loon yet?  I will never go there again (at least not on a weekend, and if I had a weekday free, there are other places I'd rather go).

As has been said, there are usually places you can hide from the crowds.  Mt. Snow has the north face and I've usually been able to find places on the front-side to ski "normally" (i.e, without thinking that I'm about to get run over by the mob).  Even Okemo has places to hide.


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

*the numbers*



oakapple said:


> I have no way of measuring that (paging Dr. Jeff), but I think layout has a lot to do with the _perceived_ crowdedness.



Here is an analysis I did six years ago.  This number assumes maximum capacity, with all lifts running and all ski-able terrain open.  These numbers become irrelevant if the area is not operating at full capacity or acreage.

  It would be interesting to update this.  
Skiers per acre per hour.  (Lower is better).

Resort	*Skier Density*
Crotched	149
Pats Peak	120
Butternut	120
Granite Gorge	104
King Pine	89
King Pine	89
Jiminy Peak	81
Hunter NY	73
Cannon	67
Cochran's	67
Waterville	65
Bellayre	64
Whiteface	60
Stratton	59
Wachusett	58
Mount Sunapee	57
Pico	53
Okemo	53
Windham Mountain	53
Sunday River	48
Ascutney	48
Sugarbush	48
Mount Snow/Haystack	47
Killington	45
Loon	43
Saddleback	42
Gunstock	38
Balsams	37
Bolton Valley	36
Sugarloaf	33
Bromley	33
Bretton Woods	33
Middlebury	32
Jay Peak	32
Stowe	31
Shawnee Peak	30
Suicide Six	30
Dartmouth	30
Wildcat	30
Magic Mountain	30
Black Mountain	29
Cranmore	27
Attitash	27
Smugglers	26
Mad River	26
Black	26
Ragged	26
Berkshire East	25
Deer Valley	25
Gore	24
Burke	23
Tenny*	21
Arapaho Basin	18
Crested Butte	18
Breckenridge	17
Beaver Creek	16
Aspen /Snowmass	16
Mammoth	14
Sun Valley	13
Winter Park	13
Durango/Purgatory	13
Copper Mt	13
Mt. Baldy	13
Teluride	12
Squaw Valley	12
Taos	12
Sundance	11
Loveland	10
Vail (multi only - sr. rate shown)	10
Keystone	10
Steamboat	10
Bear Valley	9
Solitude	9
Squaw (Big) Mountain	8
Park City	8
Kirkwood	8
Mt. Hood	8
Sierra at Taho/Boothcreek	7
Heavenly	7
Snowbird	7
Bosquet	6
Alta	6
Mt. Bacheor	6
Beaver Mountain	5
Silver Mountain	5
Ski Ward	5
Jackson Hole	4
Snow Basin	4
McIntyre	
Buttermilk/Tiehack (Snowmass/Aspen)	
Average	15
Median	29


http://www.iabsi.com/public/ski/skier_density.htm


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## oakapple (Jan 3, 2012)

billski said:


> Here is an analysis I did six years ago.  This number assumes maximum capacity, with all lifts running and all ski-able terrain open.  These numbers become irrelevant if the area is not operating at full capacity or acreage.


Thanks, Bill. That's fascinating. Many of the western resorts have wide bowls, where you get to the top and then have a practically infinite number of ways down. This is in contrast to the Eastern resorts, where a lift serves a particular number of discrete, separately-named trails. This would account for the very low numbers out west, compared to the east.

On the other hand, if the numbers for two resorts are within 20-25% of one another, then the perception of crowdedness is probably affected by other factors, such as specific bottlenecks in the trail or lift system, which a calculation like this cannot take into account.


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## Edd (Jan 3, 2012)

Bumpsis said:


> A lot ( if not most) of  ski areas on Saturadys when conditions are good, will be crowded. In NH, those among most crowded  (my personal experiences) will be Sunapee, Waterville, Loon, Attitash. That's why I won't even bother to ski on a Saturday, unless the conditions are just really fantastic (good 10-12 inches of fresh on top of a well esatblished base). Even then I won't go to the above listed places.



This, although I've never skied Sunapee.


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## MV Frank (Jan 3, 2012)

Bill, interesting analysis there.

Though it would be interesting to see it for trail acres only (excluding bowl/woods acres)
for example, heavenly is almost last on that list with 7 skiers/hour/acre - because their glades and skiable area between trails are so open and expansive. But I would venture a guess that only 20% of patrons ski or ride that 80% of very open area...and when you get to the base of the main lifts, its a nightmare.


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## bobbutts (Jan 3, 2012)

The leaders, Pat's and Crotched, have a ton of uphill capacity when all lifts are going up full, which seems quite rare.  Especially at Pat's, it's the redundant lifts.


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## ScottySkis (Jan 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I have no way of measuring that (paging Dr. Jeff), but I think olayout has a lot to do with the _perceived_ crowdedness. At Hunter Mountain, for example, there is only one non-black route down from the summit (Belt Parkway), so everyone who is not comfortable on black diamonds _must_ take that route. If Hunter had the identical acreage, but with more than one non-black route down from the summit, the _perception_ of crowdedness would be entirely d summit (Long John/Little John combo). And blue skiers use LJ too, since a number of useful blue trails have their entry points from there. This is the Ach Mount Snow's layout.
> 
> Of course, until last year Mount Snow had only one HSQ from the base to the summit, and the alternative (the Summit Local) was a slow, cold, 15-minute ride. The new six-pack is meant to solve that problem. It might be a bit of a scrum at the very top, but from there you have a lot of options, unless you're a green skier.


Hunter on weekend s i don't mind the lift lines but snow quality goes away really quickly, i find at southern vt hills and platty have better quality for what I like, mid week Hunter is awesome ski place especially being 2 hr 30 minutes drive from metro NYC


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

MV Frank said:


> Bill, interesting analysis there.
> 
> Though it would be interesting to see it for trail acres only (excluding bowl/woods acres)
> for example, heavenly is almost last on that list with 7 skiers/hour/acre - because their glades and skiable area between trails are so open and expansive. But I would venture a guess that only 20% of patrons ski or ride that 80% of very open area...and when you get to the base of the main lifts, its a nightmare.



The skiable acres has been a point of contention, just as the number of trails.  What's a trail?  What's skiable?  You just have to build a confidence level into the data.  Those with the largest marketing budgets get demoted by default! ;


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## billski (Jan 3, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> The leaders, Pat's and Crotched, have a ton of uphill capacity when all lifts are going up full, which seems quite rare.  Especially at Pat's, it's the redundant lifts.



Precisely why you should look at these numbers as only one data point.  Time of day (the mad rush for the quad to open at $teaux), Day of week, vacation periods, the list goes on.

There are a number of moving parts in the equation.  Lift capacity, well, it's hard to fudge that number.  Skiable acres easy to fudge.  In my calcs, I just took it from the resort's stats directly.  Tony Crocker would take a more rigorous approach, but he slants his data to the left of here.

What it does show is the _potential_ for on-mountain skiers.  I love the single char and banging old, slow doubles.  'nuff said.


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## riverc0il (Jan 3, 2012)

That was an interesting attempt at measuring skier density but there are just SO many variables. The assumption of all lifts going at full capacity limits the usefulness considerably... especially considering areas with supposed high density might almost never have max capacity. A beginner lift at full capacity is given the same weight as an expert lift at full capacity. And a beginner lift might service three trails whereas a top to bottom lift might service dozens. Does the mountain have a summit lodge? That can have effects in density as well. How about NoVT areas with so much off map trail skiing that isn't part of acres but spreads skiers out? Or an area like Stowe where a lot of people hike the Chin and go completely off map. Wide trails might give more acres but also allows more skiers to ski the same trail at the same time. Width vs length of a trail could make big differences in perceived density vs actual density. Etc. Let's not forget perceptions of crowdedness in the lodge and base area vs the slopes. 

From my own travels, Loon and Mount Snow seemed to be the two areas that I have found "obnoxiously crowded". Cranmore and Attitash have a congested feel on a busy weekend. Now all the homers for these mountains will pipe in "there are ways to avoid the crowds" blah blah blah. True at most mountains but the overall impression is there, especially for folks that don't know how to work a mountain. And the homers spend so little time at uncrowded mountains that they've just adapted their perceptions of crowds upward.


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## Smellytele (Jan 3, 2012)

What people usually judge crowded by is lift line wait not really skiers on the trail. Kind of like when grocery shopping the checkout line is all people think about. It is the choke point.


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## goldsbar (Jan 3, 2012)

My rule of thumb for the Northeast is the further north you go in any given state the better the crowds.  Elk is much less crowded than Shawnee in PA.  Gore is less crowded than Hunter in NY.  Sugarbush is less crowded than Mt Snow.  There are some obvious exceptions but it works well enough.


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## Bene288 (Jan 3, 2012)

Definitely Mount Snow. Last time I went it was just too much. I went on a Wednesday non-holiday and was stuck in lines for over 30 minutes. I love the terrain parks there, but it's not worth the crowds.


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## MV Frank (Jan 3, 2012)

Some resorts actually cap ticket sales for the day in order to prevent overcrowding and provide a better experience. Big Bear in CA is an example of a place that does this - when I went there, friends advised me to buy tix in advance to ensure I could actually get in if they hit their limit.

Never gonna happen, but I wonder if any NE resorts would ever consider this. Would mean trading profits away to provide a better experience for the skiers and riders.


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## gladerider (Jan 3, 2012)

Bene288 said:


> Definitely Mount Snow. Last time I went it was just too much. I went on a Wednesday non-holiday and was stuck in lines for over 30 minutes. I love the terrain parks there, but it's not worth the crowds.



+1

i can only afford to ride on weekends and every time i have been up there in the last few years the wait for the lift lines is ridiculous compared to any other hills i normally frequent. the only other lift line that is equally ridiculous is stratton's line for the gondi.


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## mlkrgr (Jan 3, 2012)

I think Loon's gondola line is ridiculous in that it can be a 10-15 minute wait even on a weekday. MRG's single is even worse with waits reaching as high as an hour. If I really wanted low skier density, I ski midweek. Can't go wrong with many places midweek and even Loon will have areas with a reasonable skier density midweek (though mainly that is North and South Peak). Mount Snow is ridiculous on weekends; will be an unavoidable place for me but will try to book some midweek trips up there. I can't believe there's plenty of people that are willing to pay $83 for a weekend ticket there. Bluebird will help w/ lines but can't imagine how it is with the skier density on weekends w/ the bluebird now.


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## Anklebiter (Jan 4, 2012)

4aprice said:


> Seen it twice like that (parked down the access road).  You must have never taken a spin through the parking lots.  You see plates from not only NY, NJ, PA but plenty of Del, MD and Va too.  That's a 3-4 + hour trip for those people.  Mt Airy Casino brings alot of people in too.  I'm glad I live where I do, that Camelback is a local option and I have Vt to go to to be a tourist myself.  Very vibrant weekend scene at CBK.
> 
> As far as the loaf, feel lucky, its too far for me here in the NY metro area and I'm sure most others too. (lots of options closer too).
> 
> ...



 Yes, it take us from northern Delaware about 2 to 3 hours depending on traffic. I'm surprised about Va, though. I think I'd be heading to Snowshoe if I was from Va.


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## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2012)

MV Frank said:


> Some resorts actually cap ticket sales for the day in order to prevent overcrowding and provide a better experience. Big Bear in CA is an example of a place that does this - when I went there, friends advised me to buy tix in advance to ensure I could actually get in if they hit their limit.
> 
> Never gonna happen, but I wonder if any NE resorts would ever consider this. Would mean trading profits away to provide a better experience for the skiers and riders.



Loon does this and when it gets to that point you wouldn't want to ski there anyway.


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2012)

mlkrgr said:


> I think Loon's gondola line is ridiculous in that it can be a 10-15 minute wait even on a weekday. MRG's single is even worse with waits reaching as high as an hour. If I really wanted low skier density, I ski midweek. Can't go wrong with many places midweek and even Loon will have areas with a reasonable skier density midweek (though mainly that is North and South Peak). Mount Snow is ridiculous on weekends; will be an unavoidable place for me but will try to book some midweek trips up there. I can't believe there's plenty of people that are willing to pay $83 for a weekend ticket there. Bluebird will help w/ lines but can't imagine how it is with the skier density on weekends w/ the bluebird now.


The Single line can get quite long but I have rarely seen it longer than a 40 minute wait. I don't think I've ever seen it at 60 minutes even on a weekend powder day. The parking situation at Mad River essentially puts a cap on the amount of skiers that can get in there. Most non-holiday and non-powder weekends, the Single can get long but not obnoxiously so except at peak times. The best way to work Mad River is hit the Single early and late. Get there for first turns and stay for last chair and hit the Sunnyside and the lodge when the line gets long. I've only waited 40 minutes for the Single on powder days... and it was worth it. Especially when the trails are so uncrowded.

I know Loon used to advertise a long time ago about a ticket cap. But I was under the impression that this was done away with. I certainly have never heard an example of anyone being turned away. And with the South Peak expansion, I can't imagine they can't handle the load now. That extra chair and terrain must have helped spread things out a bit.


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## billski (Jan 4, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Loon does this and when it gets to that point you wouldn't want to ski there anyway.



When I first came to New England, Loon was one of my first mountains.  I loved it for a while, but only  could ski weekends; when the parking  ban started was when I stopped going.  Now I have other reasons.

Loon used to cap sales about 25 years ago.  About 10am was the witching hour.  The parking lot was full and people parked everywhere.  A couple years after that, with an increase in uphill capacity and parking down by the river, they stopped their limits.  If I recall they may have added North Peak about that point.


I did not realized they had started the ban again.


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## drjeff (Jan 4, 2012)

Bene288 said:


> Definitely Mount Snow. Last time I went it was just too much. I went on a Wednesday non-holiday and was stuck in lines for over 30 minutes. I love the terrain parks there, but it's not worth the crowds.



Cummulative over the day, or 30 minutes during 1 specific lift ride??

And if you do spend some appreciable time, even mid week, over at Carinthia lapping the parks, you are much more likely to see a 10 to 20 chair wait each ride than you are to have the Nitro Express be ski/ride on.  Those parks are a BIG draw pretty much every day Mount Snow is open for the entire season. Hence the reason why year in and year out they're rated at the top of parks in the East by multiple polls


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## Bene288 (Jan 4, 2012)

gladerider said:


> +1
> 
> i can only afford to ride on weekends and every time i have been up there in the last few years the wait for the lift lines is ridiculous compared to any other hills i normally frequent. the only other lift line that is equally ridiculous is stratton's line for the gondi.



It's not just the lift lines. Every time I've been to Mt. NoSnow it's been so packed on the trails. The only trails that aren't jammed are the blacks, but it takes so long to get around that mountain that by the time I get to them, they have gotten wicked icy. I should really give Snow another chance, I just need to get there an hour before the lifts start operating.


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## oakapple (Jan 4, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Hunter on weekend s i don't mind the lift lines but snow quality goes away really quickly.


This is directly attributable to the trail layout, where certain narrow trails see a highly disproportionate share of the skier volume.


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## billski (Jan 4, 2012)

Interesting comments on Loon from Joe Average skier over at Yelp and Trip advisor

http://www.yelp.com/biz/loon-mountain-ski-resort-lincoln
A common theme (though probably 50%) is lift lines.

Mt. Snow
http://www.yelp.com/biz/mount-snow-ski-resort-west-dover
Interestingly, far fewer complained about the lines.  The base services got the highest complaints especially tickets and rentals (season-pass holder you are excused now!)

I do not have time to review the Trip advisor ratings.


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## Newpylong (Jan 4, 2012)

C-Rex said:


> Mt. Snow has to be the worst.  On a busy weekend everything but the North Face is jammed.  And even that gets busy when the snow is good.
> 
> I really think the new 6-pack is only going to make things worse.  With that and the Grand Summit quad running, they are dumping 10 people at a time at the top.  I'd rather wait in line and have some room on the trail than get up the mountain fast and have to dodge children and beginners the whole way down.



When the whole place is open, the crowds are more than tolerable on anything but the main thoroughfares. When both lifts are cranking on the weekend on the N Face, you never wait more than a few chairs.

The biggest crowds at Mount Snow are definitely waiting in the line for the lifts, which thankfully have been reduced on the front with the new lift this year.

Really the same story as any other popular mountain.


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## billski (Jan 4, 2012)

Newpylong said:


> When the whole place is open, the crowds are more than tolerable on anything but the main thoroughfares. When both lifts are cranking on the weekend on the N Face, you never wait more than a few chairs.
> 
> The biggest crowds at Mount Snow are definitely waiting in the line for the lifts, which thankfully have been reduced on the front with the new lift this year.
> 
> Really the same story as any other popular mountain.



What I'm seeing in all of this is lack newbie awareness.  Could the lines be the result of people unfamiliar with the area?  Just skiing the same places all the time, puts them back crowded lift line.  Fight the devil you know, not the one you don't know.

   A little bit of signage on the part of the resort (perhaps while waiting in line!) might be a very inexpensive way for resorts to ease crowding, increase safety and customer sat.  Or am I all washed up?


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## Cheese (Jan 4, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Well I never waited in line at Burke.



It will be interesting to see what happens to Burke this year.  I always thought the reason for their lack of crowds was uphill capacity.  Now that they've added a HSQ for 2012, sliders may actually show up in mass.


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## Riverskier (Jan 4, 2012)

Sunday River has to be up there on a busy day at Barker at South Ridge. That said, when the whole mountain is open you can ALWAYS find literaly ski on lifts accessing good terrain with minimal crowds on the trails. The place is so damn big and spread out.


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## drjeff (Jan 4, 2012)

billski said:


> What I'm seeing in all of this is lack newbie awareness.  Could the lines be the result of people unfamiliar with the area?  Just skiing the same places all the time, puts them back crowded lift line.  Fight the devil you know, not the one you don't know.
> 
> A little bit of signage on the part of the resort (perhaps while waiting in line!) might be a very inexpensive way for resorts to ease crowding, increase safety and customer sat.  Or am I all washed up?



Bill, I'm not sure that signs would make a bunch of difference for the newbie/"average" skier/rider crowd.  Those type of customers at any resort tend to gravitate towards where a high speed lift is, just because its a high speed lift.  You can tell them that a fixed grip lift a short distance away that services essentially the same terrain has the high speed has no line, but more often than not they'll still wait for the high speed and then head for one of the 1st few snowmakign trails that start near the top of that lift 

I've seen this for YEARS at Mount Snow.  Prior to the six pack going in, on any busy weekend in the main base area,  the lines for the then 2 high speeds in the base area would be 10 to 15 minutes on a busy weekend, whereas the lines for either the summit local or even the Ego Alley Triple would be atmost 10 chairs.  Same thing at Carinthia.  The line for the Nitro Quad can be 10+ minutes, but the Heavy Metal Double less than 100 yards away and that serves most, but not all of what you can get to from Nitro is non existant.  I've seen Mount Snow out doing "line entertainment" on these busy days with speakers and microphones telling people to head for the other lifts, and they stay at the high speeds.  I'm not sure that will ever change


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## HowieT2 (Jan 4, 2012)

billski said:


> What I'm seeing in all of this is lack newbie awareness.  Could the lines be the result of people unfamiliar with the area?  Just skiing the same places all the time, puts them back crowded lift line.  Fight the devil you know, not the one you don't know.
> 
> A little bit of signage on the part of the resort (perhaps while waiting in line!) might be a very inexpensive way for resorts to ease crowding, increase safety and customer sat.  Or am I all washed up?



+1.  Not only newbie awareness but also that they tend to follow the same schedule.  They get on the hill around 10, ski till 12:30, have lunch and then ski for another hour or so.  

at sugarbush, I get on the hill at 8-9 depending on conditions,  break for lunch around 11-11:30 before the lodge gets crowded, take a quad up while the tourists eat lunch, and then stay on the upper mtn lifts.  never have a problem except for wind hold days.

fwiw-I only go to MRG on weekday powder days because of the weekend lines at the single.  hate the wait.


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## oakapple (Jan 4, 2012)

billski said:


> What I'm seeing in all of this is lack newbie awareness.  Could the lines be the result of people unfamiliar with the area?  Just skiing the same places all the time, puts them back crowded lift line.  Fight the devil you know, not the one you don't know.


I'm not gonna disagree with you . . . but really, how complicated is it to see the line, and as yourself if perhaps another part of the mountain is less crowded? It's not as if it takes years of experience to figure that out. I'm always fairly familiar with the trail map before I go, and you can practically predict where the lines will be shorter, even if you've never been there before.

Now, for the trade-off of a high-speed lift vs. a fixed-grip serving the identical terrain, sometimes it's worth waiting a little longer for the high-speed in exchange for a shorter and more comfortable ride. Dr. Jeff gave the Mount Snow example. That old Summit Local took 15 minutes to reach the top, and it could get awfully cold up there. I wouldn't blame anyone for saying, "I'll wait an extra 10 minutes on the ground, in exchange for a more pleasant ride to the top."


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## Newpylong (Jan 4, 2012)

Jeff you are definitely right on what happens and Oak is definitely right on why it happens...

If given a choice, most people will wait longer for the High Speed Lift than no line on a fixed grip.

I personally take the fixed just cause I don't want to stand. In the end it probably takes a bit longer and I lose some of my day, but that's what I do. 

the new 6 helps so you can actually lap the front (using the Summit Ex or 6).  For those really bad days, the old standbys of Heavy Metal, Sundance and Ego are there.


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## Cheese (Jan 4, 2012)

billski said:


> What I'm seeing in all of this is lack newbie awareness.  Could the lines be the result of people unfamiliar with the area?  Just skiing the same places all the time, puts them back crowded lift line.  Fight the devil you know, not the one you don't know.
> 
> A little bit of signage on the part of the resort (perhaps while waiting in line!) might be a very inexpensive way for resorts to ease crowding, increase safety and customer sat.  Or am I all washed up?



Are you referring to "newbies" to the area or "newbies" to the sport?  

There will always be those that have to go to the top of the mountain.  They'll glance at the trail map or ask someone like me, "Does this lift go to the top?"  If the trail under the lift is open, they will follow it right back to the bottom.  Even if they're a beginner skier or rider and the trails is clearly marked expert, they'll still follow it down.


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## Masskier (Jan 4, 2012)

Cheese said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens to Burke this year.  I always thought the reason for their lack of crowds was uphill capacity.  Now that they've added a HSQ for 2012, sliders may actually show up in mass.



They still have their 5 minute lift line guarantee


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## mlkrgr (Jan 4, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Sunday River has to be up there on a busy day at Barker at South Ridge. That said, when the whole mountain is open you can ALWAYS find literaly ski on lifts accessing good terrain with minimal crowds on the trails. The place is so damn big and spread out.



Agreed; I do love the N. Peak chair at Sunday River and it's only run on weekends and holidays now thanks to the Chondola. But I think the chondola really makes Aurora more easily accessible and that's why crowds aren't that bad on N. Peak and trails like 3d don't get that much use.


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## mlkrgr (Jan 4, 2012)

Masskier said:


> They still have their 5 minute lift line guarantee



On the discussion of Burke, I think that traffic there will increase thanks to all that Jay is doing to expand. So for the ski and stayer buying day tickets from lodging (or the ticket window for that matter); a day at Jay and a day at Burke makes sense especially if not staying with a resort property. Or for those who want to try the Jay waterpark splash and stay w/ skiing at Burke.

On the discussion of high speeds, it's all relative. On a very busy weekend, I've found it just as well to ski all the way down to skyeship base and get on down there w/ a nonexistent line than wait 10 minutes at the midstation. Though, this is mostly so I could get in the box for 12 minutes on a cold day and hopefully have a good place to eat lunch as the cabins almost never fill to capacity on the first stage. But then, in most cases, the needles express would be running and that would bring you up most of the way with a greatly reduced wait but I've seen waits on that chair at times. The needles lift is slightly slower but not having to take your skis off makes up for that. I do find that at the barker lift at Sunday River, the time spent in the singles line makes up for the slowness of the locke triple for being about breakeven in most cases. Though, with the lines, that makes me spend more time at white cap and n. peak.

With wildcat, nothing replaces the quad there although the tomcat covers most of the terrain but I've only seen that run when the quad is on hold. Otherwise, I've seen it to be no more than a 15 chair wait. Anyway, the capacity of their parking lot kind of limits how many people can be there (legally) since parking on the highway is not allowed.

Though, the good thing to say with Loon or Waterville, with day trips, you get their faster so you spend more time on the slopes although it is offset by the wait in line.


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2012)

mlkrgr said:


> On the discussion of Burke, I think that traffic there will increase thanks to all that Jay is doing to expand. So for the ski and stayer buying day tickets from lodging (or the ticket window for that matter); a day at Jay and a day at Burke makes sense especially if not staying with a resort property. Or for those who want to try the Jay waterpark splash and stay w/ skiing at Burke.


This ain't going to happen. Jay and Burke have different target markets coming from different directions. A new lodge and waterpark at Jay isn't going to do anything for Burke visits compared to the new HSQ at Burke. A very small minority might think to combine these two areas but I just don't see it happening very often. Most people doing the lodging thing aren't going to want to drive around that much once they get to a hotel. Hour and a half round trip is doable but certainly not amongst the great combo areas like North Conway area, Cannon/Bretton, Cannon/Loon, Mad River Valley, Killington/Pico, etc.


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## legalskier (Jan 5, 2012)

My worst "crowded area" stories came when my kids were little. I guess parents' sense of danger really kicks in when they're skiing with their little ones.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> This ain't going to happen. Jay and Burke have different target markets coming from different directions. A new lodge and waterpark at Jay isn't going to do anything for Burke visits compared to the new HSQ at Burke. A very small minority might think to combine these two areas but I just don't see it happening very often. Most people doing the lodging thing aren't going to want to drive around that much once they get to a hotel. Hour and a half round trip is doable but certainly not amongst the great combo areas like North Conway area, Cannon/Bretton, Cannon/Loon, Mad River Valley, Killington/Pico, etc.



The Jay/ Burke thing works if you are not coming from Canada. Hit Burke on the travel day. I have also done the Burke/Cannon thing much better to me than Cannon/ BW or Cannon/ Loon. This year i will be doing the Burke/Jay/Cannon thing.


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## playoutside (Jan 5, 2012)

I have a few areas I will no longer ski on a Saturday because of the insane lift lines and slope attitudes.  I agree there are ways to work most any area to avoid the worst of the crowds, but at some point during the day you will encounter them.  So my list of worst of NE on a Saturday

Loon
Sunapee 
Mt Snow
Okemo
Killington
Stratton

Funny as I look at this list I realize I've had passes to all of them at one point or another. 

Usually I ski some off the beaten path or small area on Saturdays and save the popular ones for Sundays and midweek.


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## hammer (Jan 5, 2012)

playoutside said:


> Usually I ski some off the beaten path or small area on Saturdays and save the popular ones for Sundays and midweek.


Sundays are our weekend day of choice...but it can still be crowded.  For Sunapee the key is to get as much skiing into the morning hours before the afternoon discount crowds arrive and scrape off the trails.

I know that a lot of people frown on Loon and the crowds there, and I have not been there a bunch of times, but the only time I've been there with insane crowds has been during a holiday week.  We had a Sunday trip there last year when there were no crowds...even the wait for the gondola wasn't too bad.


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2012)

I'll take what will likely be a very unpopular stance here.  CROWDED ski areas are something that we all as downhill sliding snow enthusiasts should be thrilled about and hope that it happens to more and more areas!  Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.  Especially this year where the early season was non existant for so many ski areas, Christmas week wasn't the greatest when the weather, the amount of open terrain and the "no snow in my backyard" factor is considered, and given that almost all of the open ski areas right now have hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more for some of the big snowmaking powerhouses) of machine made snow covering the trails!

With there now being some early rumbling of another potential rainmaker later next week, just before MLK day weekend, we should all be hoping to see packed slopes this weekend for the sake of the industry that so many of us here on AZ are very passionate about!


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## hammer (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I'll take what will likely be a very unpopular stance here.  CROWDED ski areas are something that we all as downhill sliding snow enthusiasts should be thrilled about and hope that it happens to more and more areas!  Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.  Especially this year where the early season was non existant for so many ski areas, Christmas week wasn't the greatest when the weather, the amount of open terrain and the "no snow in my backyard" factor is considered, and given that so almost all of the open ski areas right now have hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more for some of the big snowmaking powerhouses) of machine made snow covering the trails!
> 
> With there now being some early rumbling of another potential rainmaker later next week, just before MLK day weekend, we should all be hoping to see packed slopes this weekend for the sake of the industry that so many of us here on AZ are very passionate about!


We do tend to have a NIMBY approach to crowds here at AZ...:wink:

Growing up on the Jersey Shore, we had a love/hate relationship with the summer beachgoers...great (to essential) for business but the traffic and attitudes of the Shoobies was hard to take at times.


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## MV Frank (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I'll take what will likely be a very unpopular stance here.  CROWDED ski areas are something that we all as downhill sliding snow enthusiasts should be thrilled about and hope that it happens to more and more areas!  Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.  Especially this year where the early season was non existant for so many ski areas, Christmas week wasn't the greatest when the weather, the amount of open terrain and the "no snow in my backyard" factor is considered, and given that so almost all of the open ski areas right now have hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more for some of the big snowmaking powerhouses) of machine made snow covering the trails!
> 
> With there now being some early rumbling of another potential rainmaker later next week, just before MLK day weekend, we should all be hoping to see packed slopes this weekend for the sake of the industry that so many of us here on AZ are very passionate about!



I'll +1 you on that. Very true.


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## Newpylong (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I'll take what will likely be a very unpopular stance here.  CROWDED ski areas are something that we all as downhill sliding snow enthusiasts should be thrilled about and hope that it happens to more and more areas!  Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.  Especially this year where the early season was non existant for so many ski areas, Christmas week wasn't the greatest when the weather, the amount of open terrain and the "no snow in my backyard" factor is considered, and given that almost all of the open ski areas right now have hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more for some of the big snowmaking powerhouses) of machine made snow covering the trails!
> 
> With there now being some early rumbling of another potential rainmaker later next week, just before MLK day weekend, we should all be hoping to see packed slopes this weekend for the sake of the industry that so many of us here on AZ are very passionate about!



I happen to actually agree with this. As much as it sucks, crowds are good to see.

If you really can't deal with them, the places like Magic are where to go. Of course, they have their own problems due to lack of crowds. Catch 22.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2012)

As Yogi Berra once said "No one goes there anymore, it is too crowded."


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## SkiFanE (Jan 5, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Sunday River has to be up there on a busy day at Barker at South Ridge. That said, when the whole mountain is open you can ALWAYS find literaly ski on lifts accessing good terrain with minimal crowds on the trails. The place is so damn big and spread out.



Agree.  But this year is tough (with limited terrain to spread skiers out), but even so...what's a 10 min lift line wait?  Guess I will never forget the 70s when 30-45mins was the norm.  But traffic on a busy trail is like a highway...big clogs of people...then noone for a minute.  We spent last week being patient and waiting for the clog to pass.


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## farlep99 (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.



This is true to an extent, but I also believe that over-development is a problem too.  The key is to find that happy medium.  Think of going out to a bar on a Saturday night: Not many people want to be the only people (literally) sitting at the bar.  At the same time, no one (over 24ish) wants to be in a jam-packed, can't get a beer, sweltering crowd.  Usually you want some kind of scene / people watching, but not empty or over crowded.  Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself here.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 5, 2012)

i prefer to drive a bit further on a friday night as the crew sleeps to find spots that are uncrowded...last year MLK weekend i heard Mt Snow was turning kids away from ski school as they were over booked...we were at Burke, had signed my8 yr old for a group lesson,,,she ended up having a private..there are places out there without crowds, you just have to make a bit more effort but it will reward you ten fold....


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## Highway Star (Jan 5, 2012)

Based on billski's method, Killington is currently at a theoretical 67.6 skiers per acre-hour.


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## legalskier (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.



I agree but what I'm getting at with this thread was an area being so crowded that "your personal well-being felt threatened." Extreme overcrowding.
We all have different ways of dealing with it, from tree skiing, to moving over to a different lift, to going to a different ski area (which benefits the economy over there, no?).
As I mentioned, the times when I felt this way was mostly when my kids were little and I was trying to protect my family. My daughter was knocked down, my wife's skis were run over, and I've literally had to shepherd them down certain trails at certain (unnamed) areas on certain days, trying to avoid a complete meltdown for all of us. I've been buzzed so close that I could feel the wind from it. A friend of mine had his arm broken while _stopped at the side of a trail_ when someone crashed into him.
My kids are older now so I don't have to worry so much, but there still are lingering effects, e.g. I refuse to ski at certain areas on weekends (whether that's fair or not). I'm much happier seeking out the Burkes/Magics/Hickorys of the ski world.


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## Cheese (Jan 5, 2012)

legalskier said:


> I agree but what I'm getting at with this thread was an area being so crowded that "your personal well-being felt threatened." Extreme overcrowding.
> We all have different ways of dealing with it, from tree skiing, to moving over to a different lift, to going to a different ski area (which benefits the economy over there, no?).
> As I mentioned, the times when I felt this way was mostly when my kids were little and I was trying to protect my family. My daughter was knocked down, my wife's skis were run over, and I've literally had to shepherd them down certain trails at certain (unnamed) areas on certain days, trying to avoid a complete meltdown for all of us. I've been buzzed so close that I could feel the wind from it. A friend of mine had his arm broken while _stopped at the side of a trail_ when someone crashed into him.
> My kids are older now so I don't have to worry so much, but there still are lingering effects, e.g. I refuse to ski at certain areas on weekends (whether that's fair or not). I'm much happier seeking out the Burkes/Magics/Hickorys of the ski world.



I understand your reasoning, but using that same logic I would think that areas would have to be avoided not just because of crowds but also because of choke points in their trail layout or even dangerous trail merges.  These other two conditions become more dangerous when an area is less crowded and skier speeds increase.  It's creeping out into/onto one of these locations that can REALLY get you "buzzed" as a fast moving uphill skier may have thought they had the run to themselves.


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2012)

legalskier said:


> I agree but what I'm getting at with this thread was an area being so crowded that "your personal well-being felt threatened." Extreme overcrowding.
> We all have different ways of dealing with it, from tree skiing, to moving over to a different lift, to going to a different ski area (which benefits the economy over there, no?).
> As I mentioned, the times when I felt this way was mostly when my kids were little and I was trying to protect my family. My daughter was knocked down, my wife's skis were run over, and I've literally had to shepherd them down certain trails at certain (unnamed) areas on certain days, trying to avoid a complete meltdown for all of us. I've been buzzed so close that I could feel the wind from it. A friend of mine had his arm broken while _stopped at the side of a trail_ when someone crashed into him.
> My kids are older now so I don't have to worry so much, but there still are lingering effects, e.g. I refuse to ski at certain areas on weekends (whether that's fair or not). I'm much happier seeking out the Burkes/Magics/Hickorys of the ski world.



Total get the "personal well being felt threatened" part of this (especially with a 6 and 8 yr old on the hill most weekends at Mount Snow which has made pretty much everyone's most crowded list  ).  The one thing that I will applaud Mount Snow for in how they handle this, is they've been more visible (and not just because they're wearing neon green jackets this season  ) with stationing their mountain ambassadors at multiple places on the designated slow skiing/riding trails and traditonal "bottleneck" trail intersections, and the ambassadors have also been much more aggressive about not just stopping folks who are going to fast, but also providing some basic hill etiquette for all to help raise awareness in this early season of limited acres for a large amount of bodies.

Additionally, some posters in this thread who are also on the Mount Snow season passholders website, saw this 1st hanf about a week ago.  There was a complaint made about how some kids in the competition program (the complaint was made by the father of an up until this season, many year competition team snowboarder - he's now teaching this year instead of competing) were going too fast on a slow skiing/riding trail in moderate/heavy traffic.  This was addressed in the thread within 24hrs by not just the head of the competition program but also the general manager, and then there were tangible results on the mountain last weekend!

No doubt that there's a fine line between promoting a safe environment and being perceived as the ski/board gestapo, but I think that the areas that are more aggressive about this, even the most perceived crowded of areas will seem less crowded


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## JimmyPete (Jan 5, 2012)

If you're lucky enough to play hookey on a week day , I've found that most Eastern Mid to Large Mountains actually give you almost as good an experience as out West [weather permitting]. That being said a decent skier can negotiate any groomed run in the East , so on weekends if you know your abilities and are afraid of Double D's or serious bumps, the groomed blacks are usually less crowded than the blues. Also, don't try and get every d'mned run in when it's crowded. Get out early, Lunch at eleven, ski 12 for a while , quit early and do some Beer therapy from  there after. You'll be a much happier person, and the nap at 4pm , priceless.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2012)

JimmyPete said:


> If you're lucky enough to play hookey on a week day , I've found that most Eastern Mid to Large Mountains actually give you almost as good an experience as out West [weather permitting]. That being said a decent skier can negotiate any groomed run in the East , so on weekends if you know your abilities and are afraid of Double D's or serious bumps, the groomed blacks are usually less crowded than the blues. Also, don't try and get every d'mned run in when it's crowded. Get out early, Lunch at eleven, ski 12 for a while , quit early and do some Beer therapy from  there after. You'll be a much happier person, and the nap at 4pm , priceless.



I love Double D's


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## ScottySkis (Jan 5, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> I love Double D's


Theirs a lot those in my office, hard to not steer at them sometimes


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## JimmyPete (Jan 5, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> I love Double D's



You might love double D's but the crowds don't, the thread is about crowds and except for the back side of Hunter and maybe Mt. Snow's North Face  I don't know any DD that gets too crowded, To those of us who prefer a little less strain on older knees, a black run is usually much less crowded than the blues.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2012)

Scotty got it - JimmyPete didn't


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## Black Phantom (Jan 5, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> Scotty got it - JimmyPete didn't



He might not like them....:uzi:


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## mriceyman (Jan 5, 2012)

Scotty said:


> Theirs a lot those in my office, hard to not steer at them sometimes



Hhahaha that is funny stuff


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## JimmyPete (Jan 5, 2012)

You be correct but I am a leg man. Still a little cleavage never hurt always makes the slopes look bigger and more welcoming.


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## riverc0il (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I'll take what will likely be a very unpopular stance here.  CROWDED ski areas are something that we all as downhill sliding snow enthusiasts should be thrilled about and hope that it happens to more and more areas!  Crowds = business, and that is great for not just the ski area itself, but in general the various businesses around a ski area and the main roads that lead to ski country.  Especially this year where the early season was non existant for so many ski areas, Christmas week wasn't the greatest when the weather, the amount of open terrain and the "no snow in my backyard" factor is considered, and given that almost all of the open ski areas right now have hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not more for some of the big snowmaking powerhouses) of machine made snow covering the trails!


You are just speaking from your biases on that point. We should be thrilled that resorts have expanded downhill and uphill capacity to the point that we need to wait through long lines to ski scraped conditions and dodge traffic? Yea, right. Maybe at the big resorts. But ski areas that managed their growth instead of ponying up to the real estate and high speed trough can actually be busy and "crowded" without having long lines or crowded slopes.

Do I want ski areas to succeed, not only staying in business but reinvesting and growing their business? Yes, absolutely. Should I be happy that certain resorts need to draw so many visits to make that happen that it detracts from my experience? No, not at all. You are confusing wanting a business to succeed and agreeing with its business practices that cause excessive crowding. Successful and sustainable does not have to equal crowded.... unless your business model says it does.

To further illustrate the difference, do you pay full price on your season pass to help support the resort? Or early rate? Shame on you for not supporting the ski area if you go for early rate. 

:beer:


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## MV Frank (Jan 5, 2012)

no one would argue for long lines, etc.

consider:
-fixed and operating costs for ski resorts are staggering
-seasonal business - the real cash only really comes in a small fraction of the year
-with midweek lulls, they must rely heavily on saturdays/weekends/holidays

so yea, it kind of does need to be annoyingly crowded every saturday for them to make the $ to cover costs and stay in business


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> You are just speaking from your biases on that point. We should be thrilled that resorts have expanded downhill and uphill capacity to the point that we need to wait through long lines to ski scraped conditions and dodge traffic? Yea, right. Maybe at the big resorts. But ski areas that managed their growth instead of ponying up to the real estate and high speed trough can actually be busy and "crowded" without having long lines or crowded slopes.
> 
> Do I want ski areas to succeed, not only staying in business but reinvesting and growing their business? Yes, absolutely. Should I be happy that certain resorts need to draw so many visits to make that happen that it detracts from my experience? No, not at all. You are confusing wanting a business to succeed and agreeing with its business practices that cause excessive crowding. Successful and sustainable does not have to equal crowded.... unless your business model says it does.
> 
> ...



Okay I do buy my families 2 adult, 1 junior, 1 child and 2 ski school seasons passes early (afterall I think the resort wants to have some working capital over the summer, and then I can 100% guarantee that my mountain owned seasonal bar tab total more than makes up for the difference in the cost of an early purchase vs. a regular purchase price pass!  :beer:

As for the on the hill volume question, let me pose this question, since afterall it is the ski INDUSTRY, what ski area GM wouldn't want to see at seasons end an INCREASE in skier/rider visits over the previous year??  Heck I bet that even Mad River Glen hopes for a year to year as increase in skier visits which then hopefully translates into an income increase in revenues. Profit in spite of what some think these days isn't a bad thing in any industry/business


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2012)

drjeff said:


> Okay I do buy my families 2 adult, 1 junior, 1 child and 2 ski school seasons passes early (afterall I think the resort wants to have some working capital over the summer, and then I can 100% guarantee that my mountain owned seasonal bar tab total more than makes up for the difference in the cost of an early purchase vs. a regular purchase price pass!  :beer:
> 
> As for the on the hill volume question, let me pose this question, since afterall it is the ski INDUSTRY, what ski area GM wouldn't want to see at seasons end an INCREASE in skier/rider visits over the previous year??  Heck I bet that even Mad River Glen hopes for a year to year as increase in skier visits which then hopefully translates into an income increase in revenues. Profit in spite of what some think these days isn't a bad thing in any industry/business



I think you are missing the point. He is saying that expenses are higher at some places so they HAVE to have more skier visits to succeed while other do not NEED more skier visits. There is a point where economy of scale stops producing profit at the same higher percentage.


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## Newpylong (Jan 5, 2012)

Your logic unfortunately is not in line with reality. Most successful businesses that I know (even outside of ski resorts) general try to grow their customer base. Very few restrict or want to turn back customers, even if they are breaking even or producing a small profit. They rather have wild growth and deal with the consequences than be stagnant.

Is it any cooincidence that these areas that have "managed their growth" have changed owners numerous times, been close or have gone on NELSAP, etc? I don't think so...



riverc0il said:


> You are just speaking from your biases on that point. We should be thrilled that resorts have expanded downhill and uphill capacity to the point that we need to wait through long lines to ski scraped conditions and dodge traffic? Yea, right. Maybe at the big resorts. But ski areas that managed their growth instead of ponying up to the real estate and high speed trough can actually be busy and "crowded" without having long lines or crowded slopes.
> 
> Do I want ski areas to succeed, not only staying in business but reinvesting and growing their business? Yes, absolutely. Should I be happy that certain resorts need to draw so many visits to make that happen that it detracts from my experience? No, not at all. You are confusing wanting a business to succeed and agreeing with its business practices that cause excessive crowding. Successful and sustainable does not have to equal crowded.... unless your business model says it does.
> 
> ...


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## Black Phantom (Jan 5, 2012)

Occupy Mt Snow!


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2012)

Black Phantom said:


> Occupy Mt Snow!



Mt Snow will be yellow this season.


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2012)

Smellytele said:


> I think you are missing the point. He is saying that expenses are higher at some places so they HAVE to have more skier visits to succeed while other do not NEED more skier visits. There is a point where economy of scale stops producing profit at the same higher percentage.



Obviously. I think that we can all agree that Killington needs more skier/rider visits than say Magic does to meet operational expenses. But i'd bet quite a few beers that if you asked the GM at Magic if he'd suddenly take an extra say 25, 50 or even 100ksensation in skier/rider visits this season, that answer without hesitation would be yes.  And that the "problem" of figuring out how to safely manage all those extra people would be a welcome challenge


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2012)

Newpylong said:


> Your logic unfortunately is not in line with reality. Most successful businesses that I know (even outside of ski resorts) general try to grow their customer base. Very few restrict or want to turn back customers, even if they are breaking even or producing a small profit. They rather have wild growth and deal with the consequences than be stagnant.
> 
> Is it any cooincidence that these areas that have "managed their growth" have changed owners numerous times, been close or have gone on NELSAP, etc? I don't think so...



Well put!


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## Edd (Jan 5, 2012)

Dr Jeff I admire how you frequently bring beer into the conversation.  You've got your head screwed on right.


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## drjeff (Jan 5, 2012)

Edd said:


> Dr Jeff I admire how you frequently bring beer into the conversation.  You've got your head screwed on right.



I think that the famous quote rumored to have been said by Ben Franklin, "Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy!" sums it up pretty well  :beer:


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## Nick (Jan 6, 2012)

Ive been shocked this year at the lack of crowding...  Wachusett on christmas week was dead


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## Black Phantom (Jan 6, 2012)

Nick said:


> Ive been shocked this year at the lack of crowding...  Wachusett on christmas week was dead



Where else have you been?


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 6, 2012)

Nick said:


> *Ive been shocked this year at the lack of crowding*...  Wachusett on christmas week was dead



Shocked?   What percentage of skiers want to spend hundreds of dollars on ski vacations to ski 20% to 40% of terrain...... with thin cover.... with no woods...... etc?


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## Newpylong (Jan 6, 2012)

Nick said:


> Ive been shocked this year at the lack of crowding...  Wachusett on christmas week was dead




That's good to know... I usually go up to Crotched for the short day trip because of the zoo at Wachusett.


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## JimmyPete (Jan 6, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> You are just speaking from your biases on that point. We should be thrilled that resorts have expanded downhill and uphill capacity to the point that we need to wait through long lines to ski scraped conditions and dodge traffic? Yea, right. Maybe at the big resorts. But ski areas that managed their growth instead of ponying up to the real estate and high speed trough can actually be busy and "crowded" without having long lines or crowded slopes.
> 
> Do I want ski areas to succeed, not only staying in business but reinvesting and growing their business? Yes, absolutely. Should I be happy that certain resorts need to draw so many visits to make that happen that it detracts from my experience? No, not at all. You are confusing wanting a business to succeed and agreeing with its business practices that cause excessive crowding. Successful and sustainable does not have to equal crowded.... unless your business model says it does.
> 
> ...


 I've been at Stratton on some pretty crowded days, once you get past the base if you stick to their blacks there is rarely a crowd. Blacks at Stratton are pretty tame but you are still skiing and decent vertical for all.


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## mlkrgr (Jan 6, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Shocked?   What percentage of skiers want to spend hundreds of dollars on ski vacations to ski 20% to 40% of terrain...... with thin cover.... with no woods...... etc?



And full price too in most cases! Though, once the snow flies, the crowds will come out of the woodwork. Checked Jay and they are only at 21 trails now. Still some waiting to do until the going gets good and of course MRG doesn't have the main slope open so that's a good indication that things are still not up to par. And yes, there's more buses than usual for this time of year being cancelled due to lack of bookings.


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## legalskier (Jan 6, 2012)

Nick said:


> Ive been shocked this year at the lack of crowding...



Their loss is our gain.
:beer:


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## drjeff (Jan 7, 2012)

legalskier said:


> Their loss is our gain.
> :beer:



Let's hope it doesn't continue for too long or else their loss could also turn into our loss


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## troy (Jan 7, 2012)

Why people torture themselves standing in line all day and dealing with overcrowded trails packed with morons is beyond me.  Saving two hours on the road to stand in line three hours a day is nuts.  You can have your mt snow, J, kmart, magic and the rest of the mcresort zoo's ... in fact I thank you for not coming to some of the spots we try to hit and enjoy ourselves without a hint of the hassles you gotta put yourself through all day long...  just sayin.


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## Newpylong (Jan 7, 2012)

troy said:


> Why people torture themselves standing in line all day and dealing with overcrowded trails packed with morons is beyond me.  Saving two hours on the road to stand in line three hours a day is nuts.  You can have your mt snow, J, kmart, magic and the rest of the mcresort zoo's ... in fact I thank you for not coming to some of the spots we try to hit and enjoy ourselves without a hint of the hassles you gotta put yourself through all day long...  just sayin.



Is there a point to this that hasn't already been said or assumed? lol.


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 7, 2012)

troy;678765 [B said:
			
		

> You can have your mt snow, J, kmart, magic and the rest of the mcresort zoo's [/B]... in fact I thank you for not coming to some of the spots we try to hit and enjoy ourselves without a hint of the hassles you gotta put yourself through all day long...  just sayin.



Magic's a "mcresort" zoo?


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## steamboat1 (Jan 7, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Magic's a "mcresort" zoo?



LOL...save 2 hours of driving going to Jay?


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## MadPadraic (Jan 7, 2012)

Nick said:


> Ive been shocked this year at the lack of crowding...  Wachusett on christmas week was dead



Have you been to Barker at SR yet? Mad crazy.


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