# I dislike Bush



## Peter the great (May 2, 2005)

I mean really, after I saw farenheit 9/11 I could not find any reason for liking bush ever.... again.... and all the republicans around in my office, are just saying that it is against the church to be democrat. they think that the war in Iraq is a good thing. and another guy thinks that we otta conquer the world cause we can..... wow.....ladies and gentlemen I give you your moron.


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## BeanoNYC (May 2, 2005)

Peter,

While I agree with you on what your saying, I take offense to the way you insulted others in the Fahrenheit 911 thread.  We have been lucky, so far, in being able to discuss controversial subjects in a mature and non-insulting manner.  A well respected member and moderator of this forum locked the Fahrenheit 911 thread in order to prevent any more insults and give you another chance.  You then chose to start this discussion on the very same topic with flame bait.  Pete, do us all a favor and cut the B.S.  If you have something of value to add to Alpinezone, then please post it.  If your trolling for an argument, please go somewhere else.  We are first and foremost, a community who’s interest lies in mountain sports.  Please take a few moments to lurk and “feel” the good vibes before you write your poison.  Whatever our political affiliations may be, we’re all way too content with the atmosphere here to ruin it by responding with flames.


Cheers :beer: ,
Rich


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## awf170 (May 2, 2005)

trying to start an argument are we?  The other post was locked for a reason


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## Vortex (May 2, 2005)

Excellent self monitoring.  Ignore him.


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## awf170 (May 2, 2005)

Bob R said:
			
		

> Excellent self monitoring.  Ignore him.



i think that monitoring should move me and beanonyc up to moderators  :wink:  :wink: jk


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## ChileMass (May 2, 2005)

I am on the case.......


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## hammer (May 2, 2005)

I guess this is the first time I paid attention to the sponsored links on the thread.

I'm curious as to how this works...


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## Greg (May 2, 2005)

BeanoNYC said:
			
		

> While I agree with you on what your saying, I take offense to the way you insulted others in the Fahrenheit 911 thread.  We have been lucky, so far, in being able to discuss controversial subjects in a mature and non-insulting manner.  A well respected member and moderator of this forum locked the Fahrenheit 911 thread in order to prevent any more insults and give you another chance.  You then chose to start this discussion on the very same topic with flame bait.  Pete, do us all a favor and cut the B.S.  If you have something of value to add to Alpinezone, then please post it.  If your trolling for an argument, please go somewhere else.  We are first and foremost, a community who’s interest lies in mountain sports.  Please take a few moments to lurk and “feel” the good vibes before you write your poison.  Whatever our political affiliations may be, we’re all way too content with the atmosphere here to ruin it by responding with flames.


Well said, Rich.



			
				Bob R said:
			
		

> Excellent self monitoring.  Ignore him.


Agreed.


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## Jaytrek57 (May 3, 2005)

Ignoring?

Any response is engaging. Trolls love any attention.

Great...now I've done it to!!


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## Max (May 3, 2005)

Jaytrek57 said:
			
		

> Ignoring?
> 
> Any response is engaging. Trolls love any attention.
> 
> Great...now I've done it too!!



ROFL...    We have met the enemy and he is us!


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## dmc (May 3, 2005)

I love bush.... 
But I hate Bush... 

DOH!!!!!


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## Stephen (May 3, 2005)

Interesting NY Times editorial today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/03/o...78fc81db6&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

-Stephen


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## ctenidae (May 3, 2005)

That is pretty good, *Stephen*. I only caught snippits of Laura's performance, and I came away with the impression that her speechwriter is remarkably good at bringing a joke right up to the line, without crossing it. Some of it was pretty good. Unfortunately, I think Laura uses the same speech coach as W- it's easy to tell where you're supposed to react, because they stop talking.
I disagree with many of Bush's policies, and the skill the GOP has developed in manipulating the public is frightening, yet amazing. Nixon invented it, Reagan polished it, but GWB has perfected it. He may not be able to string together a coherent thought on his own, but he is a brilliant politician, able to hold his core of supporters while weakening his opposition and not severely annoying the swing voters. Clinton was pretty good at it too, but his experiments didn't work as well as W's old-school methods.
Overall, I'm pretty disappointed with the state of American politics- perception over substance, spin over reality. Hopefully Jefferson's right, in that Democracy is the best way to ensure the people get the government the people deserve, and that we'll wake up as a country soon and realize we deserve better. A viable third party would be a decent start. While I'm wishing for things, I'd like a pony, too.


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## dmc (May 3, 2005)

Anyone associated with GWB now - is a tool..
All the good people left...

I'm pretty liberal but I took F911 with a "grain of salt"..  Some things seems spun some don't.. Tough to tell..  I also didnt watch it until AFTER the election so I wouldnt have to be accused of using it in my debates against conservatives...

I do know our current administration has a knack for releasing info to manipulate events and scare the F out of people...


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## pedxing (May 3, 2005)

I was surprised to get your PM, Peter.

 "_From:  	Peter the great
To: 	        pedxing
Posted: 	02 May 2005 21:26
Subject: 	what did you say about my mother? 	

ok, first of all, I am a new user. and second, you really need to cut the holier than thou stuff. I'm new here so I didn't really know about the no attacks and stuff. other wise I would totally beat you down.  so anyway what do you mean no evidence? the war in korea and vietnam was a total flop and we did get our kicked "bailing out other countrys" we provided help to people that never asked for it. and all for the sake of not wanting communism to spread. usa acted like the good neighbor who gets into everybodies buisness for "their own good" I don't really care if everyone wants to be commies it's their buisness and their choice._" 

When I talked about your lack of evidence I meant you didn't offer evidence to build and support your case.  I actually loathe Bush's politics and agree with many of your conclusions.  I just think it would be better to build a strong argument than sling insults like "moron."  As an aside, I have family in Texas who turned to Bush's Dad in a time of crisis (my cousin was a Vietnam POW at the time) and the entire Bush family was warm, gracious and kind.  So, while I may hate their politics and policies - I try to separate that from a more personal level.  Bill Clinton said something to the same effect, hoping we can disagree without some measure of courtesy and respect.

I wasn't trying to out holy you, I was trying to be welcoming - while at the same time explaining my problems with your post.  My slate ain't clean, I'm not throwing any stones. I think we can get along here.


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## thetrailboss (May 3, 2005)

hammer said:
			
		

> I guess this is the first time I paid attention to the sponsored links on the thread.
> 
> I'm curious as to how this works...



 :-?   I'm not sure if this is what you are referring to, but Alpinezone moderators are not paid or bribed to express a certain political bias.  People are entitled to express their opinions in so long as they comply with our community standards.


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## hammer (May 3, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> hammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I open up the thread, I get sponsored links with titles like "Proud Democrat Wristbands"...

Are the sposored links somehow tied into the thread content?

I'm not trying to imply that the moderators have anything to do with this, I was just curious.


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## ctenidae (May 3, 2005)

It's the power of Google, *hammer*

It can make using gmail fun, trying to see what silly ads can be forced.


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## ChileMass (May 3, 2005)

pedxing said:
			
		

> I was surprised to get your PM, Peter.
> 
> "_From:  	Peter the great
> To: 	        pedxing
> ...




This is well-put, and pedxing, I am proud to count you among the regulars at AZ.com.  Way to defuse without beating the guy up in public..... :beer: 

Well, it looks like I'm one of the few Bush supporters on this site, but that's OK.  I guess when I see Dubya and Laura acting like sort of regular human beings instead of watching the religious nuts pull their strings, it makes me feel a little better about them as people.  I agree the religious right has an awful lot of power these days, and Dubya seems to make overt, public displays of Christianity the litmus test for political power, but I really think if you watch these folks closely, they are just playing along for the political advantage.  The religious nuts are hot right now, and opportunists like Dubya and Delay and their kind are taking advantage, like politicians will.  Aside from the obsession with fundamentalist religion, most of the rest of the Republican agenda, including tax reduction, checking immigration, and commitment to democracy abroad are all good in my view......


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## dmc (May 3, 2005)

ChileMass said:
			
		

> Aside from the obsession with fundamentalist religion, most of the rest of the Republican agenda, including tax reduction, checking immigration, and *commitment to democracy abroad *are all good in my view......



Weather they want it or not...


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## ChileMass (May 3, 2005)

dmc said:
			
		

> ChileMass said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you can still get your hands on it, there was a very interesting cover story and article in Newsweek a couple weeks back about growing democracy in the Middle East.  Last month, thousands of Lebanese protested in the streets until the Syrian-backed government fell and the Syrian army packed up and went home.  Several prominent Lebanese educators and opposition politicians claimed it could not have happened without the US overthrow of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.  Similarly, Egypt is holding elections which allow candidates from outside Mubarak's party which has ruled unopposed since 1981.  Kyrgyzstan just threw out its dictator, a corrupt former Soviet. Democracy is running rampant in Asia, and this is a wonderful, wonderful thing for them and us.    

The rise of democracy in China and Russia in the past 20 years has made our world richer and safer.  The last remaining threats to western democracy come from the Islamic world where dictators oppress hundreds of millions who want democratic freedom and institutions (see Lebanon example above).  When democracy flourishes in the Islamic world over the next 20 years, will Bush be looked on as a visionary - ?  Possibly, especially in countries that were able to become democratic.  

My personal opinion is that here at home we take democracy far too much for granted and assume people who are without it don't want it.  Perhaps they can't even ask for it without inviting danger for themselves and their families.  This was the case in Iraq before 4/2003, and remains the status of much of the rest of the Islamic world.  Don't be so quick to deny these folks their opportunity.  Go get that Newsweek and read it......


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## dmc (May 3, 2005)

I hear ya... But forcing our values on other cultures is scarey..

It's going to create havoc on the Islamic world..


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## dmc (May 3, 2005)

ChileMass said:
			
		

> Perhaps they can't even ask for it without inviting danger for themeleves and their families.



How about the danger to me and my family...???

The 911 terrorists compared us to crusaders..  
My brother and sister inlaw did service in Iraq...  May have to go back again..

I'm not sure after the oil dries up that I'll care much about those people..  Especially if it takes trillions of OUR dollars to pull it off...

Lower taxes??? How about stop fighting...


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## Peter the great (May 5, 2005)

*ok.....*

ok, what ever happened to the no insulting crap? I get in trouble for hurling insults like flaming feces and they get away with calling me a troll and a bunch of other crazy crap? oh, and by the way, his message reeked of "I am better than you" so cut the crap. I am not saying that the bush family are bad people I am just saying they are bad leaders and we shouldn't have him in office anymore. I am sick of hearing people down grade clinton and praise bush when it should be the other way around. I heard a lady say when clinton was still president clinton should be out of office cause he tapped a little ass.(pardon) I mean really, he did good for the economy and I will probly get kicked off for this but really how can anyone really say that bush is doing a good job when he is sending our sons and fathers and husbands over to die fighting a country that has never done anything to us? he didn't fund al quada, he killed 10s of thousands yes, but bush has killed  over a hundred thousand! 





> help us help us america, our leader is sending our soldiers over to a foreign land to die for oil!! help us!


oh wait we are america. so you know what? I am going to get kicked off for this so if you want to talk to me about politics, write to me at icebeastofthecavern@yahoo.com or, if you want me off this website and to never come back do the same. just tell me. 8)


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## riverc0il (May 5, 2005)

i think Peter the Great is actually a conservative trying to give liberals a bad name by purposely acting like a tool.  any one else?  obviously a troll as no posts have been made (that i have seen) in any non-bush discussion threads.


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## dmc (May 5, 2005)

*Re: ok.....*



			
				Peter the great said:
			
		

> I am not saying that the bush family are bad people



OOOOH!!! LET ME - LET ME!!!! 

I can cite a ton of stuff... DWI's(W), drug use(W), killing people in traffic accidents(Laura),  Buying a baseball team and bilking the taxpayers for a new stadium then quitting with profits(W),  taking us to war and lieing(W), Getting your family to get you out of going to war(W)...
I could go on...


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## awf170 (May 5, 2005)

*Re: ok.....*



			
				Peter the great said:
			
		

> ok, what ever happened to the no insulting crap? I get in trouble for hurling insults like flaming feces and they get away with calling me a troll and a bunch of other crazy crap? oh, and by the way, his message reeked of "I am better than you" so cut the crap. I am not saying that the bush family are bad people I am just saying they are bad leaders and we shouldn't have him in office anymore. I am sick of hearing people down grade clinton and praise bush when it should be the other way around. I heard a lady say when clinton was still president clinton should be out of office cause he tapped a little ass.(pardon) I mean really, he did good for the economy and I will probly get kicked off for this but really how can anyone really say that bush is doing a good job when he is sending our sons and fathers and husbands over to die fighting a country that has never done anything to us? he didn't fund al quada, he killed 10s of thousands yes, but bush has killed  over a hundred thousand!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



do u actually ski or hike.... because u no this is a skiing and hiking forum, i bet there are some forums around about politics


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## pedxing (May 5, 2005)

Actually - I think STG is making an effort and don't think he is a troll.

And Stephen don't worry about getting kicked off for your political opinions.  There are vehement voices on both sides of the debates. I think the Bush presidency is an ongoing disaster and think this satire was eerily prophetic:  http://chak.org/pages/onion/bush_nightmare.html


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## noreaster (May 5, 2005)

In 1988 I voted for George Herbert Walker Bush who defeated Democrat Michael Dukakis.  I had and still do have a lot of respect for the 1988 president Bush.  He clearly was the better choice over Democrat Michael Dukakis.  President Bush was from New England, born in Milton, Mass,  and graduated from Yale.  His Wife Barbara was from Rye, NY.  One of President Bush’s significant accomplishments was Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START) with Mikhail Gorbachev.  He did an ok job in office. 

I can honestly say if I knew then what I know now, I would not have voted for President Bush in 1988.   Winning the 1988 presidency made it possible for his son GWB to defeat Ann Richards in the 1993 race for Governor of  Texas. Ann was an excellent goveonor of Texas.  GWB played on the homophobia fears to defeat   Govenor Richards. This is where GWB learned that fear is power.  GWB went on to set a new record in the most executions (20) in one year by any Governor.  One of the women executed was for killing her husband who repeatable beat the crap out of her.  Since GWB became president I have changed from a registered Republican to a  registered Democrat.  I plan on voting for every Democrat on every level of politics until the right wing extremist stop ruining this country.  The good news is in 3.5 years we get to vote for a new president.  .  Until then I don't take politics too seriously.  I didn't vote for GWB so my consious is clear.


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## awf170 (May 5, 2005)

man everyone really hates bush, i dont think he is that good but i didnt like kerry either... now only if clinton could run again...


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## ChileMass (May 5, 2005)

*Re: ok.....*



			
				Peter the great said:
			
		

> I am going to get kicked off for this.........or, if you want me off this website and to never come back do the same. just tell me. 8)




Peter - calm down and please read your private messages.


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## loafer89 (May 5, 2005)

OK This is Mrs. Loafer 89
I have read all of the posting about GWB and I have A few things to say: 

1) When Bill Clinton lied about getting oral "whatever" nobody DIED.

2) GW's first justification for going into Iraq was was WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION none were found.

3) His second justification was that Saddam Hussein was a tyrant and a  war criminal, this is 
True but there are many more abusive leaders of nations out there and we are not fighting them.

Now that at last he has found one he thinks will work
WE COME TO BRING THEM DEMOCRACY.
IF this works it is a good thing but completly by accident. Bush went into Iraq basically to get control over the oil thats it, and you can dress it up any way you want to, it's about money and oil thats all folks. If it wasn't, why haven't we sanctioned Saudia Arabia who we know financially supported the 9/11 terrorists. Because we can't live with out there OIL.


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## dmc (May 5, 2005)

riverc0il said:
			
		

> i think Peter the Great is actually a conservative trying to give liberals a bad name by purposely acting like a tool.  any one else?  obviously a troll as no posts have been made (that i have seen) in any non-bush discussion threads.



He just sent me a PM blasting me for supporting the "war"....

I have no idea why he would think that...  I;m the biggest Liberal around...

But I think it has something to do with my brother and his wife being depoloyed to Iraq and Afgahnistan. ..
Their both Doctors.. And are back now...

Hey - it was my brothers choice to join the Airforce - not mine....   I'm just glad he made it back OK..


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## riverc0il (May 6, 2005)

awf170 said:
			
		

> man everyone really hates bush, i dont think he is that good but i didnt like kerry either... now only if clinton could run again...


how could you like clinton but not like kerry?  their politics aren't that different really, just their personalities and ways they presented themselves.  i think a lot of that had to do with how the presidential race has changed over the years.  every race seems like candidates have to be more careful of what they say and do.


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## Vortex (May 6, 2005)

loafer89 said:
			
		

> OK This is Mrs. Loafer 89
> I have read all of the posting about GWB and I have A few things to say:
> 
> 1) When Bill Clinton lied about getting oral "whatever" nobody DIED.
> ...



You should log in and come up with your own tagline. :wink:   I know you will have more to add than your Hubby.   Just kidding We like Kevin. I like responsible discussion with different opinions.  Please join in.


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## loafer89 (May 6, 2005)

Okay Bob, I encouraged her to join the board since she does technically ski, if you consider bunny slopes skiing :roll: 

It's interesting in this household as I am a Republican and she is a Democrate.

I just thought that I would share these bumper stickers seen while driving in Vermont last weekend:

To save a tree remove a Bush

When Clinton lied nobody died

I know that you will have more to add than your hubby?  :-?


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## Vortex (May 6, 2005)

loafer89 said:
			
		

> Okay Bob, I encouraged her to join the board since she does technically ski, if you consider bunny slopes skiing :roll:
> 
> It's interesting in this household as I am a Republican and she is a Democrate.
> 
> ...



I'm trying to keep the b--- busting to a minimal. :wink:   I like opinions that are well though out.  I may not agree with them.  Just give a resonable point.  I have no problem with you Bud We skiied in the NCP you  da man.


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## JimG. (May 6, 2005)

Anyone go skiing yesterday?


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## Stephen (May 7, 2005)

OK, so I haven't ranted in a while... I've been saving it up, I guess...

So, which is it? Did we go to Iraq for oil, and there was none to be had, so gas prices are skyrocketing? Or is Bush pocketing all the proceeds? Is one man bigger than the market? This is one hell of a conspiracy.

Me, I prefer Occum's Razor. Closer shave.

1) We went in to liberate Iraq. It's succeeding. When in doubt, return to the liberal playbook of blood for oil and no WMD.

2)Did you belive Clinton, Gore and Kerry when THEY said there were WMD? Or are you just smarter than everyone else in the world? If so, how could you fail this nation by not correcting the record 15 years ago? And how long does it take to hide WMD anyhow? Let's see. UN confirms WMDs, Gulf war I... Clinton plays with himself for 8 years, 10 years later, Gulf war II, no WMD! *GASP*

3)I believe quite a few people died due to Clinton... remember Somalia? Bosnia? Anyone? How about Vince Foster? Ron Brown? (I'll bet I'll be labelled a kook for buying into the VF and RB death conspiracy, but which do you think is easier to do, bump off a couple troublemakers, or create an entire wag-the-dog war for the sake of a few bucks that NO ONE seems to be making...)

4) How many forest fires have occurred because all removal of dead lumber was prevented? Anyone notice the increase in the number and severity of forest fires during the Clinton years? 

5) Saudi Arabia... OK. So, we are straightforward that the relationship with SA IS about oil. Yet, that in and of itself proves that Iraq is about oil too? Non sequitor.

6) Not fighting other dictators? Which is it, should we NOT be fighting dictators, or should we? Are you unhappy that there isn't ENOUGH war?! Good grief, one liberation at a time, please.

7) It' sex. S-E-X. Oral SEX. The problem with morality in this nation is that we can't call it what it is. You have to say "Whatever" because to call it SEX would mean your war hero Clinton actually LIED under oath. Perjury is a serious crime in this nation. In a nation of laws, perjury is the one thing that can destroy it utterly. Try it sometime... I doubt you'll get off as easily. (Pun intended).


Til next month or so,

-Stephen


-Stephen


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## Lostone (May 7, 2005)

> 1) We went in to liberate Iraq. It's succeeding.



We never went in to liberate Iraq.  Look at all the stories from back then.  We went in because Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was a threat to the US.  What's more, tho he said he didn't have them, and the inspectors were unable to find them, we had the ispectors withdraw and invaded.  

If that is success, I would hate to see failure.  Just because our media doesn't tell us what Iraqis think doesn't mean they aren't constantly complaining about our "liberation".

Because we don't count their dead, don't think they don't.  



> Did you belive Clinton, Gore and Kerry when THEY said there were WMD?


  They said they believed there were WMDs, but didn't invade because they might be there.  

How about Vince Foster? Ron Brown? (I'll bet I'll be labelled a kook for buying into the VF and RB death conspiracy, but which do you think is easier to do, bump off a couple troublemakers, or create an entire wag-the-dog war for the sake of a few bucks that NO ONE seems to be making...) 
Now if we could have the same level of investigations into how DhuBya manipulated intelligence to get us into this illegal war as we did into those deaths, I think the repos would be very depressed.  He hides his lies behind national security and executive privilege.  But his lies have killed hundreds of thousands, and you equate that to two deaths repeatedly investigated?  



> 6) Not fighting other dictators? Which is it, should we NOT be fighting dictators, or should we?


I think the point is (Mine would be) that if we were in it to get rid of dictators and spread democracy there were many, much better places to start.  Ergo, that is not the reason for Iraq.



> Perjury is a serious crime in this nation. In a nation of laws, perjury is the one thing that can destroy it utterly.



I would think that falsely starting a war, sending brave citizens to their death, and to kill many innocent people, garnering the mistrust to hatred of most of the world is far worse than perjury about sex.  

I hate Bush!  He has started with a budget surplus and has turned it into a deficit.  How will we ever pay off the debt he has added to the debt we already had?

He started with the world on our side, and turned most of it against us.  

Remember him saying "I'm a uniter.  Not a divider"?  He has increased the divisions within our own nation.  I don't see any way that we'll be brough together again.  

It will take generations to undo what he has done.


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## noreaster (May 7, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> 7) It' sex. S-E-X. Oral SEX. The problem with morality in this nation is that we can't call it what it is. You have to say "Whatever" because to call it SEX would mean your war hero Clinton actually LIED under oath. Perjury is a serious crime in this nation. In a nation of laws, perjury is the one thing that can destroy it utterly. Try it sometime... I doubt you'll get off as easily. (Pun intended).
> 
> -Stephen


 Stephen we got to get over this Clinton sex thing that happen a decade ago.  Anyway were talking about GWB not Clinton. 

Getting back to GWB, the following does not surprise me given GWB's record number of executions while Govenor of Texas. 

GWB's interrogation techniques might, one day, reveal interesting information about al-Qaida. To do that GWB is in violation of the Geneva Convention Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever". In the hope of breaking them, however, the authorities have confined them to solitary cells and subjected them to what is now known as "torture lite": sleep deprivation and constant exposure to bright light. Unsurprisingly, several of the prisoners have sought to kill themselves, by smashing their heads against the walls or trying to slash their wrists with plastic cutlery.

GWB administration argues that Al Qaeda members don't qualify because they don't have these qualifications: (1) being under a responsible command; (2) having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (3) carrying arms openly; and (4) conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. At times they have included the qualification of wearing a military uniform. Back last February, Bush said the Taliban and Al Qaeda were enemy combatants.  After a lot of heat, he revised his position to recognize that Taliban soldiers were entitled to POW protections but not Al Qaeda. I think they call this a FLIP FLOP.  This Administration has been making up the rules as it goes along and refuses to concede that enemy combatants are entitled to judicial review of its decision.

"Article 5 of the Third Geneva Convention states that if there is "any doubt" as to whether captured combatants should be recognized as POWs, "such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal." In other words, if doubt exists, the status of each detainee must be determined individually, not by a blanket decision of the President."

"Even if not technically prisoners of war, al Qaeda and Taliban captives still qualify for "humane treatment" under the Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment, a resolution adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1988."


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## Stephen (May 7, 2005)

The Taliban was an established ruling party. Al Queda has never been more than a terrorist group, leaders of only themselves. You want to give them the same judicial process that can't keep child sex killers behind bars?

How many have we filmed while we've decapitated them and then posted it online? How many have been forced to decide between jumping out of a burning skyscraper or burning to death? We find them and give them medical treatment, food, clothing and shelter. They find our wounded, shoot them, then hang their burnt bodies from a bridge. Al Queda in our captivity recieve 1000 times better treatment than our allies do in their captivity.

You are demanding that we treat them like someone that's been pulled over for DWI. This is war. People die. Things get broken. Ugly things happen. I am comfortable with the treatment these non-humans are getting.

What is your solution, walking away? Just let them be? They'll get us. Do we compromise with them? Appease them? Hitler in Europe taught us the futlity of that.

The only solution here is to destroy them. THEY have arranged their belief system so that it is us or them. I am not sorry to say that I think we should choose US 100% of the time.

-Stephen


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## noreaster (May 7, 2005)

Stephen said:
			
		

> The Taliban was an established ruling party. Al Queda has never been more than a terrorist group, leaders of only themselves. You want to give them the same judicial process that can't keep child sex killers behind bars?  -Stephen


I want the Untied State to treat POWs and Prisoners of any crime in a humane manner.  I think UN needs to have a competent tribunal to determine how to treat the Taliban and Al Queda.  President of the United States should not have the power to make up rules on his own. Until then Geneva Convention Article 17 needs to be enforced for all Iraq Prisoners. 

My personal opinion is the way a society treats its prisoners says a lot about who we are.  

Stephen One thing we are in agreement on is War is ugly real ugly.  War is a true test of who we are. If we even start to act like our enemy, then that makes us just as bad as they are.


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## loafer89 (May 7, 2005)

To touch on you comment about the increase in forest fires. The National Forest Service has a history of suppresing forest fires since 1928, long before Clinton was even born. The Forest Service has a blank check to suppress 99.7% of all forest fires nationwide.

Fire is a natural part of the forest life cycle, and mankind if now interfering with that cycle. Decades of old/dead growth has been accumulating in our national forests and this makes things ripe for the huge blazes that we have had in recent years.

Climate change/global warming are also having a big impact on the health of our forests and there ability to resist fires. In Alaska where 6.5 million acres of forest were comsumed by fire last year, the region suffered through the 4th warmest summer period (May - August) in 100 years, with average temperatures mean temperatures 5F above the norm. Anchorage only received 3.2" of precipitation during the entire summer, the dryest in the city history.

The warming climate has also allowed the spruce bark beetle to infest and destroy 3.2 million acres of woodland in Alaska, making for a potential forest fire disaster. Previously the colder climate in Alaska kept the beetle in check, but this is no longer the case.

In the lower 48, there has been a persistent drought in the western states for at least the last 10 years. Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Washington are in a desperate situation this spring due to the lack of winter snowfall and accumulated snowpack which in some spots is nearly 75% below the average. While California did recieve bountifull snowfall in excess of 150% of normal, they are the only state in the west not currently on the drought index monitor.

Bottom line, climate change and government policy of obstructing the natural cycle of fire have put us in a bad spot. I am with most people in that I also do not want to see our national forests burn down, but that choice may be taken away from us if the drought continues. I fear that this may be the worst forest fire season on record.


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## IRB1 (May 7, 2005)

Ok Mrs. Loafer again my husband and I decided it was better for me to log on myself IRB1. I am going to try again to explain what I meant, we went into Iraq for OIL. This is not "liberal playbook" this is what I believe if its not true then why did GWB try to sell it to us for all of those other reasons.
The oil is there, we found it just where it always was, but now that we are in control of it pipelines are being sabotaged, oil worker are being kidnapped and beheaded so its not flowing as fast as he thought it would. 

Clinton did not lie about Somalia or Bosnia, yes people died there but we as a nation were told why we were going there what goals we had in being there and then we did it, as quickly and cleanly as possible.

Loafer 89 already adressed the forest fire issue so I will leave that alone

If you think our relationship with Saudi Arabia is "straightforward" then I hope you never need to pass a DWI test. This is a country ruled by hipocritical lazy Prince's. Womem are not allowed to drive, be educated, or travel alone, on the other hand her male family members can stone her to death if she is found alone with a man even if it was only a minute and nothing happened.

Its call HONOR KILLING. This is a country we do business with everday. HMMM SA is buying our debt
so once they are out of oil they will still have power over us.

Finally, SEX I know its oral sex trust me Ive performed quite a bit of it. My husband a REPUBLICAN felt that I should not use the word and since I was posting under his name I agreed. 

About Clinton prejury I am bothered more by the fact that he was asked about it. I don't care who is crawling under a presidents desk to give him head, a good orgasam is great stress relief I think all presidents should have one everyday but thats just my opinion.


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## ChileMass (May 7, 2005)

IRB1 said:
			
		

> Finally, SEX I know its oral sex trust me Ive performed quite a bit of it.
> 
> About Clinton......I don't care who is crawling under a presidents desk to give him head, a good orgasam is great stress relief I think all presidents should have one everyday but thats just my opinion.




Ahem......

Mrs. Loafer, you rule......even if I disagree with them, I am impressed by the strength of your convictions........ :beer:


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## BeanoNYC (May 7, 2005)

ChileMass said:
			
		

> IRB1 said:
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Ditto, welcome to the forum.  Your hubby's a cool dude.  I grew up on the Island, btw, ....Seaford to be exact.


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## Peter the great (May 9, 2005)

*ahem...*

I would like to take the opportunity to apploigize to the people that I have wrongly lower their self esteem by calling them names and other slander, but sometimes I will read something that makes my blood boil and I want to kill them. like dmc, I misinterpreted his post to think that he was in favor of the war in Iraq and bushes conquest for oil. I hope I haven't offended anyone I didn't mean to. If I was aiming to offend you and I did, then my work here is done. :flame:


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## dmc (May 9, 2005)

War.... 
ehhh...  Good god now..
What is it good for....?
Absolutely nothing...



I don't like it when people die for oil as well as imposing our values on an ancient society....


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## Vortex (May 9, 2005)

BeanoNYC said:
			
		

> ChileMass said:
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> 
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Welcome to the board.  You have sparked some interest.  Thankx for joining in.


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