# I broke down



## 2knees (Sep 4, 2007)

and bought a minivan.  But at least its AWD so i can take some solace in that.  I held out for a while but cramming all that junk for our kids into the outback just got to be too much.


----------



## wa-loaf (Sep 4, 2007)

2knees said:


> and bought a minivan.  But at least its AWD so i can take some solace in that.  I held out for a while but cramming all that junk for our kids into the outback just got to be too much.



We're on that path. Next car is a minivan. We'll keep the outback though. And it's at least a year out still.

Toyota Sienna? Isn't that the only one you can get with AWD?


----------



## PA Ridge Racer (Sep 4, 2007)

Congrats on your new car. I have no problem with minivans. They're great for road trips and storing your skis. I dont have one now but may eventually who knows.


----------



## Grassi21 (Sep 4, 2007)

wifey is due for a new ride in dec.  we both agree that we will not go minivan.  but with a baby and two dogs finding an affordable suv/cuv with enough space is challenging.  we both love the GMC Acadia but the MSRP on that thing is ridiculous.  not to mention GM isn't cutting any deals on this model at the moment.  hopefully we can swoop in in dec. and do some negotiating.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 4, 2007)

Grassi21 said:


> wifey is due for a new ride in dec.  we both agree that we will not go minivan.  but with a baby and two dogs finding an affordable suv/cuv with enough space is challenging.  we both love the GMC Acadia but the MSRP on that thing is ridiculous.  not to mention GM isn't cutting any deals on this model at the moment.  hopefully we can swoop in in dec. and do some negotiating.




The Acadia is quite nice.  I think the Saturn is basically the same and has a lower sticker.


----------



## 2knees (Sep 4, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> We're on that path. Next car is a minivan. We'll keep the outback though. And it's at least a year out still.
> 
> Toyota Sienna? Isn't that the only one you can get with AWD?




yup the Sienna.  got a relatively good deal on the last '07 we could find.  And they gave us a nice number on the outback as a trade in.


----------



## ajl50 (Sep 4, 2007)

2knees said:


> and bought a minivan.  But at least its AWD so i can take some solace in that.  I held out for a while but cramming all that junk for our kids into the outback just got to be too much.



Dude you lost. Just admit it. You bought a minivan.
There's nothing anybody can say. You're not cool anymore. 
Sorry.


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 4, 2007)

Thats what I have.  My manhood is intact....


----------



## hammer (Sep 4, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> Thats what I have.  My manhood is intact....


Does it get better gas mileage than a Hummer?

On another note...as critical as people are about minivans, I'd be hard-pressed to find an SUV that can match one in storage capacity vs. fuel economy.


----------



## bvibert (Sep 4, 2007)

2knees said:


> and bought a minivan.  But at least its AWD so i can take some solace in that.  I held out for a while but cramming all that junk for our kids into the outback just got to be too much.



If it makes you feel better I just sold my truck to buy a station wagon...  Though, IMHO, it's still way cooler than a minivan... :razz:


----------



## bvibert (Sep 4, 2007)

hammer said:


> On another note...as critical as people are about minivans, I'd be hard-pressed to find an SUV that can match one in storage capacity vs. fuel economy.



I agree and that's why I'd buy one over a large SUV at this point in my life.  My wife has a small SUV now (98 Blazer) that gets crappy gas mileage and doesn't really have all that much storage.  We have to put a cargo box on top just to bring our two kids car camping for the weekend.


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 4, 2007)

hammer said:


> Does it get better gas mileage than a Hummer?



I hope not...


----------



## Greg (Sep 4, 2007)

bvibert said:


> I agree and that's why I'd buy one over a large SUV at this point in my life.  My wife has a small SUV now (98 Blazer) that gets crappy gas mileage and doesn't really have all that much storage.  We have to put a cargo box on top just to bring our two kids car camping for the weekend.



That used to be us. We learned to streamline operations quite a bit. It gets easier as the kids get older.


----------



## Grassi21 (Sep 4, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> The Acadia is quite nice.  I think the Saturn is basically the same and has a lower sticker.



I'll have to check that Saturn out.  the MSRP on the Acadia is as much as a Tahoe/Yukon.


----------



## bvibert (Sep 4, 2007)

Greg said:


> That used to be us. We learned to streamline operations quite a bit. It gets easier as the kids get older.



The damn stroller takes up a ton of space alone.  I can't wait till we don't need one anymore...


----------



## hammer (Sep 4, 2007)

bvibert said:


> I agree and that's why I'd buy one over a large SUV at this point in my life.  My wife has a small SUV now (98 Blazer) that gets crappy gas mileage and doesn't really have all that much storage.  We have to put a cargo box on top just to bring our two kids car camping for the weekend.


I had it worse...when we went car camping this summer my Highlander was so space-challenged that, even with the box on top, we still needed to bring two cars.

In the end, it worked out better because we used one car as our bear box and had the other to get around with...


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 4, 2007)

Greg said:


> That used to be us. We learned to streamline operations quite a bit. It gets easier as the kids get older.



Greg - just curious.... How old are the kids? And how many?


----------



## Greg (Sep 4, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> Greg - just curious.... How old are the kids? And how many?



Two. They turn 5 and 2 in January.


----------



## marcski (Sep 4, 2007)

I plan on holding out forever.  I have a mid-large sized sedan and the wife has an 8 y.o. grand cherokee.  Which still drives nice at 100k.  But a new vehicle for her and the kids isn't too far off the horizon.  Definitely need a 3rd row and awd or 4wd capability.  But I'm looking at another SUV or a cross-over vehicle.  

Also, doesn't Dodge make an AWD minivan?  But you'd be much better off with a toyota in the long run i think, but doesn't Chrysler, like jeep now have a lifetime drivetrain warranty?  That is impressive.  (Esp for jeeps, I've heard they tend to have tranny problems at some point down the line)


----------



## 2knees (Sep 4, 2007)

Greg said:


> That used to be us. We learned to streamline operations quite a bit. It gets easier as the kids get older.




We've cut down significantly on what we pack up.  problem is my wife's mother lives right near the beach in se mass.  so we go there like 2 or 3 times a month during the summer.  that entails the jogging stroller, beach toys, pack and play for the little one etc etc.  if it was the typical one vacation and occasional trips, i might've been able to convince her to just get another outback.  but when you pack up that much stuff, that often, it just didnt make any sense not to get a minivan.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 4, 2007)

bvibert said:


> The damn stroller takes up a ton of space alone.  I can't wait till we don't need one anymore...




But then they'll be hockey sticks, ski bags, soccer gear, back packs,  and oh yes your kids 4 friends to cart around 

I've got my 2 kids finally out of the stroller and the back our cars are still just as packed as before and the amount of time that the Thule box is on the roof just keeps increasing!


----------



## Grassi21 (Sep 4, 2007)

strollers, pack and play etc, that is what thuleboxes are meant for during non ski season months.


----------



## Paul (Sep 4, 2007)




----------



## 2knees (Sep 4, 2007)

i knew i'd take some shit for this, which is why i put it up, but this is more than i couldve hoped for.


thanks for the laughs.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 4, 2007)

2knees said:


> and bought a minivan.  But at least its AWD so i can take some solace in that.  I held out for a while but cramming all that junk for our kids into the outback just got to be too much.



Wow..alot of people have kids on here...as long as you can ski alot that's what's important.  If you're already married..there's no need for a hot car to impress the ladies..:razz:


----------



## dmc (Sep 4, 2007)

Minivans are great for musicians too...
A friend of mine has a Dodge Caravan with doors on both sides.  When we play NYC gigs, He can park against the wall on either side of the alley to loadin and out equipment.


----------



## snoseek (Sep 4, 2007)

pimp it out!


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 4, 2007)

Greg said:


> Two. They turn 5 and 2 in January.



gawd - thats precious.  God bless you.  I've got a tear in my eye...   

Mine are 10 and 6.   I can't even say how blessed I am...


----------



## nelsapbm (Sep 4, 2007)

I just broke down and bought a small SUV after swearing up and down that I would never buy one LOL. I "upgraded" my Accord to a CRV. Great car. Get 26 mpg to/fro work and 29 on the highway.
Re: mini-vans....we used to rent them at a former job I had to drive to trade shows - they hold a ton of stuff and they drive surprisingly very well. Decent gas mileage too. I'd consider getting one if I ever feel the need for more room.


----------



## Mildcat (Sep 5, 2007)

dmc said:


> Minivans are great for musicians too...
> A friend of mine has a Dodge Caravan with doors on both sides.  When we play NYC gigs, He can park against the wall on either side of the alley to loadin and out equipment.



I remember an interview with Joe Satriani on the radio. They asked him advise for struggling musicians. He said never be the one to own a van. You have to pick up everybody's gear before the gig and the last one to get home.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 5, 2007)

Grassi21 said:


> I'll have to check that Saturn out.  the MSRP on the Acadia is as much as a Tahoe/Yukon.




Here's the link:  http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/outlook/overview.jsp

I can't say enough good things about Saturn.  I really like the "no dicker sticker".  When you buy or lease a Saturn, the prices are right in front of you, so you know what you're getting at all times.  Personally, I get zero enjoyment negotiating with a car salesmen whose job it is to negotiate car prices everyday.  

I drove a bargain basement 1999 Saturn for quite some time.  The two biggest options I got on the lease were a center armrest at $1.19/month and a passenger side mirror at $.59/month.  Yes, I really checked those two boxes....In over three years of driving the car it never went once to the shop.

The cars have gotten significantly better since I drove them, too.


----------



## andyzee (Sep 5, 2007)




----------



## ctenidae (Sep 5, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Here's the link:  http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/outlook/overview.jsp
> 
> I can't say enough good things about Saturn.
> The cars have gotten significantly better since I drove them, too.



The past few years it's seemed like the fit and finish on the Saturns has been really bad- uneven gapping on body panels, they switched to some cheaper plastics inside, that sort of thing. It's been a couple of years since I checked on out, so they may have improved, but I doubt they're of the same quality they were when they launched. The General has a tendency to do that to companies, even if they're "independent." Saab has gone way downhill since GM took over.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 5, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> The past few years it's seemed like the fit and finish on the Saturns has been really bad- uneven gapping on body panels, they switched to some cheaper plastics inside, that sort of thing. It's been a couple of years since I checked on out, so they may have improved, but I doubt they're of the same quality they were when they launched. The General has a tendency to do that to companies, even if they're "independent." Saab has gone way downhill since GM took over.




Over the past year or so every model of Saturn has been replaced by models produced by the General's German subsidiary, Opel (except for the Outlook, the GMC equivalent Grassi21 was talking about, and the Sky, which is the same as the Pontiac Solstice).  The cars are quite good now and have garnered a lot of positive press.  Check 'em out.  They've really changed for the better.


----------



## Grassi21 (Sep 5, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Here's the link:  http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/outlook/overview.jsp
> 
> I can't say enough good things about Saturn.  I really like the "no dicker sticker".  When you buy or lease a Saturn, the prices are right in front of you, so you know what you're getting at all times.  Personally, I get zero enjoyment negotiating with a car salesmen whose job it is to negotiate car prices everyday.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the suggestion.  It looks like the Outlook is now a contender.  I'm going to try and stop in this weekend and start working out a lease.  It is almost identical in every way to the Acadia except the Acadia has a few more luxury items standard.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 5, 2007)

I wouldn't drive a Saturn if you paid me...Tomorrow I get my Subaru back from the bodyshop..The Neon rental has really sucked.  Oh Yeah and my Dog was laughing about your van..ahahahaha


----------



## Grassi21 (Sep 5, 2007)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wouldn't drive a Saturn if you paid me...Tomorrow I get my Subaru back from the bodyshop..The Neon rental has really sucked.  Oh Yeah and my Dog was laughing about your van..ahahahaha



would you drive a gmc?  the saturn outlook is the exact same vehicle as the gmc acadia.  and its a cuv, not a van.  ;-)


----------



## wa-loaf (Sep 5, 2007)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wouldn't drive a Saturn if you paid me...Tomorrow I get my Subaru back from the bodyshop..The Neon rental has really sucked.  Oh Yeah and my Dog was laughing about your van..ahahahaha


 
I believe GM owns a piece of Subaru.


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 5, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> I believe GM owns a piece of Subaru.



About half, as I recall. The Saab 9-2 sportwagon was (is? not sure if they're still making it) 100% built by Subaru.


----------



## wa-loaf (Sep 5, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> The Saab 9-2 sportwagon was (is? not sure if they're still making it) 100% built by Subaru.



That's right, just put a Saab nose on it and upgraded the interior a bit (moved the ignition switch :lol.

Saabs finally developed it's own AWD system that's going to move to the 9-5 and 9-3 in next year or two. We'll have to see if they stick with subi for the 9-2.


----------



## Paul (Sep 5, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> About half, as I recall. The Saab 9-2 sportwagon was (is? not sure if they're still making it) 100% built by Subaru.


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 5, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> That's right, just put a Saab nose on it and upgraded the interior a bit (moved the ignition switch :lol.
> 
> Saabs finally developed it's own AWD system that's going to move to the 9-5 and 9-3 in next year or two. We'll have to see if they stick with subi for the 9-2.



They used it, as I understand it, to fill a gap in their product line they felt they had, and rebranding the Subi was faster than designing a new car. Personally, I think they should have stuck to their knitting.
The AWD is all Saab, though, apparently, so that's a step up for them.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 5, 2007)

Grassi21 said:


> would you drive a gmc?  the saturn outlook is the exact same vehicle as the gmc acadia.  and its a cuv, not a van.  ;-)



No I wouldn't drive a GMC..I don't like American vehicles..


----------



## Paul (Sep 5, 2007)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I wouldn't drive a Saturn*<GM>* if you paid me...Tomorrow I get my Subaru *<GM>*back from the bodyshop..The Neon*<Daimler Chrysler> *rental has really sucked.  Oh Yeah and my Dog was laughing about your van..ahahahaha





Grassi21 said:


> would you drive a gmc?  the saturn outlook is the exact same vehicle as the gmc acadia.  and its a cuv, not a van.  ;-)





wa-loaf said:


> I believe *GM owns a piece of Subaru*.





ctenidae said:


> *About half,* as I recall. The Saab 9-2 sportwagon was (is? not sure if they're still making it) 100% built by Subaru.





GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> No I wouldn't drive a GMC..I don't like American vehicles..



Sorry, Mr. Stromare? yes, we're ready for you now..


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 6, 2007)

It's not American cars I don't like, it's American car design. With few exceptions, Ford and GM make some of the ugliest cars on teh planet. Chrysler did, too, until they got a little German in them. We'll see how long that lasts now that they've got a three headed dog running things.

At least Subaru still does their own designing, etc.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 6, 2007)

wa-loaf said:


> I believe GM owns a piece of Subaru.



That was true, but GM divested its 20% stake a couple of years ago (partly to Toyota).


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 6, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> It's not American cars I don't like, it's American car design. With few exceptions, Ford and GM make some of the ugliest cars on teh planet. Chrysler did, too, until they got a little German in them. We'll see how long that lasts now that they've got a three headed dog running things.
> 
> At least Subaru still does their own designing, etc.




Personal taste, I suppose.  I like Subarus, but they've never been beautiful or good looking cars.  The Tribeca thing is pretty hideous.  The Imprezza?  Not impressive.  The Outback is quite functional and brands one a Northeasterner (like Saab used to do), but its not a particularly good or exciting design.


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 6, 2007)

know what Subaru is backwards?


Your a bus.


Try it....


----------



## drjeff (Sep 6, 2007)

SkiDork said:


> know what Subaru is backwards?
> 
> 
> Your a bus.
> ...



:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## mlctvt (Sep 6, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Personal taste, I suppose.  I like Subarus, but they've never been beautiful or good looking cars.  The Tribeca thing is pretty hideous.  The Imprezza?  Not impressive.  The Outback is quite functional and brands one a Northeasterner (like Saab used to do), but its not a particularly good or exciting design.



I agree. My wife and I have a 2005 Subaru WRX wagon as our ski car. In last years April storms it was the only car in our condo building that made it out before they could plow. Four large SUVs and a Mercedes E320 4matic all just sat spinning their wheels. They must have had crappy all season tires. It was hilarious watching my neighbor’s faces when my wife climbed into the WRX and just drove out through 18" of snow. Yes it was like a snow plow, the front end pushing the snow and the bottom of the car was dragging but the wheels didn't spin. There's nothing like AWD and real snow tires. Outbacks are nice but they handle like a truck, they're one of the worst handling cars made due to the ride height. Too bad they don’t make a Subaru Legacy GT limited wagon with a standard transmission any more, 2005 was the only year, I’d be buying one this year if they did.


----------



## skijay (Sep 6, 2007)

About the Saturns..I have owned two S series, L series and a VUE.  The S series were the most durable and long lasting cars that I have ever owned.  My 1996 SL2 is now on it's third owner and is at 225k and the engine still has not been rebuilt.  I also learned it still has the original clutch and exhaust system.  I got rid of it back in 2001 with 150k on it.  They are a little boring and quirky but they are basically a gas and go car.

Saturn has a new ad campaign stating "Rethink American".   I may be wrong on part of this, but the 2008 VUE was designed by Daewoo / Opel and is built in Mexico, The new Astra (Ion replacement) is an Opel built in Belgium rebadged and de-tuned for Americans, the Aura is an Opel design Americanized and built either in Delaware or the original Spring Hill, TN plant.  The SKY / Solstice are twins as is the Outlook / Acadia, I think the SKY/ Solstice is another Opel design built here.  I kind of do not understand the Rethink American campaign if most of their vehicles are European designed cars. 

I am going to miss the original US designed & made polymer Saturns.  Now we get rebadges or clones of other GM products.


----------



## marcski (Sep 6, 2007)

skijay said:


> I kind of do not understand the Rethink American campaign if most of their vehicles are European designed cars.



It's because Toyota now sells more cars than GM.  Clearly aimed at people buying foreign made cars.  I think the 10 yr 100k warranties are nice...they are still offering those on GM's right?


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 7, 2007)

"Rethink American" probably means they realized American kind of sucks. For car design, anyway.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 7, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> "Rethink American" probably means they realized American kind of sucks. For car design, anyway.




:roll:


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 7, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> :roll:



Eh, personal taste again, I suppose. America makes some pretty ugly cars, in my opinion.


----------

