# White Mtn advice needed



## ts01 (Aug 23, 2005)

Hello all.  Longtime lurker and occasional ski forum poster with a few questions for the hikers.

I'm preparing to take the family for a 4-day hike up in the Whites over Labor Day weekend.  I haven't hiked there since two weeks' worth of winter camping 20 years ago, and we're staying in AMC huts, so this will be new and different.  

First set of questions is re weather conditoins and packing.  I'd like to keep it light for the kids' sake but everything I read says pack for cold and wet, year-round.  Since I've NEVER seen the sun shine there I believe it, but up to a point....  What kind of conditions should we expect and pack for?  For labor day I was thinking we'd do fine with a rain jacket, a fleece, and a polypro base in addition to cotton t-shirt.  Hike in shorts obviously.  If it were just me I'd leave it at that but given the wife and kid factor, I'm considering if there's any benefit also to packing lightweight long pants, a polypro bottom and/or rainpants; or even light gloves or hat?   Chance are the heavier we pack, the hotter it'll be -- and we have a lot of steep trails to ascend which will make every ounce count.  

Second (and related) question: best weather resource on web for this area?  Easy enough to figure this out if skiing (my instinct is to plug Bretton Woods into Weather.com)but how about for hiking?   

Third set of questions is re route.  Couldn't get the hut reservations I originally wanted (Greenleaf / Galehead / Zealand) so we settled on parking at Crawford Notch; night 1 at Zealand Falls hut; down to the notch and back up the other side for night 2 at Mizpah Spring hut; "day hike" to Lake of the Clouds hut back for night 3 at Mizpah Spring hut; then back down to Crawford Notch.   With the hut reservations obviously the basic route is settled but I'd love to hear any suggested side trips.  We're hoping for a very early start on day 1 so I'm hoping to get to Zeacliff and back.  Any suggestions for other side trips, etc. on the other days?  Anything to be avoided along the way?  (FWIW kids are strong, experience hikers in the 12 - 14 y/o range who've done plenty of peaks elsewher in NY/NE area -- Adirondacks and occasional VT / MA hikes.) 

Thanks in advance for any info on this.


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## kickstand (Aug 23, 2005)

the observatory's web site is probably your best bet for all weather-related information.  They do a great job.

http://www.mountwashington.org

this link is the best reason you should definitely consider packing those pants, gloves and hats.  The base and summit temps will tell you all you need to know.

http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/arvtp/


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## blacknblue (Aug 23, 2005)

Definitely bring what you need to stay dry, first.  In addition, I would bring the fleece, hat, and gloves for warmth.  While it may be warm and humid, it could also dust you with a little snow and wind in September.  All in all, it's a great month to hike, but you always want to keep an eye on the weather (esp. with a family outing).
For side trips, don't pass up Mt. Williard near Crawford Notch and--if you go that way--stop in to say hi to Ethan Pond, a great setting.


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## smitty77 (Aug 23, 2005)

I think you've got the clothing list pretty well covered.  I'd bring rain pants (or at least wind pants) and polypro bottoms.  It can get quite cold at night, and even though you're in a hut, you may get chilly after dinner.  Not to mention daytime conditions vary widely.  I'd certainly bring gloves and a hat for the same reasons.  Conditions above treeline for your trek to Lakes of the Clouds can be much different than the weather in the notch.  A little light rain/fog with a gusty 30-40 mph wind and you'll be thankful for the extra clothing.  Better to have it than wish you did, especially when with the kids.

As for weather sources, I'm a fan of the Mt. Washington Observatory website.  They have current weather conditinos, a few summit cams to check the current views (or lack thereof), and higher summits forecasts.  I find the forecasts for the valley (i.e. local news and Weather.com) don't always jive with what's happening up high.

Where are you parking in the notch?  If possible, you may be able leave some gear out for the trip to and from Zealand Falls, and then add it back in or fine-tune your gear inventory on your way back through before making the climb to Mizpah Spring hut.  You may also be able to leave some extra gear at the hut on the day of your dayhike if the weahter is good.  But, since it's a long-ish hike to lakes, you may end up taking everything anyway.

I'm sure many others will chime in.  Good luck on your trip.  Take lots of photos to show us all when you get back.

Smitty


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## ts01 (Aug 23, 2005)

Wow, a consensus no less.  Hats and gloves it is.  Thanks.

Smitty, I had that same thought about going up to Zealand with only one days lunch and snacks; leaving the rest in the car and picking it up on the next day as we head back through to Mizpah Spring.  I assumed there was only one place to park but your "where are you parking" question suggests its not so simple. Where SHOULD I be parking, if I want to lighten the load this way?


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## Mike P. (Aug 23, 2005)

What are the kid’s ages?  There has been a few cases of cars being broken into at the Mt. Clinton Road trailhead.  What time the first day are you starting?  Are you looking at nice hiking terrain or more peakbagging.  Are you open to hiking back to the car on day 1 & driving to another trailhead on day 2 or do you want to park & forget the car.

Gear, you seem okay for first two days, getting to LOC on a less than good day might require more. I’d opt for synthetic T-shirts (pack a Cotton T for after hiking at huts) I’d opt for convertible pants which allow you basically shorts that you can change into long pants by just adding the legs.  (I’ve been at LOC on Labor Day weekend on a great sunny hiking day of  45 Degrees with a 30 MPH wind.  That’s cold for kids & most adults in shorts too.

I’d opt for rain coats & nylon wind pants with the idea that if I needed full rain gear I’d forget about going beyond Eisenhower with a hearty trail family &most likely no more than Pierce.  I’d only do Eisenhower by descending Edmands afterwards & walking back on the road too as just doing Eisenhower is adding a good deal of exposure on a bad day. Based on what you said before, I’d probably forget Eisenhower on a less than good day

Gear for kids for a fair September day on Southern Presidentials: (45 degrees or so with 20-40 MPH, some clouds light to moderate rain possible later in the day)

Rain Coat
Fleece top
Pant legs on convertible pants or light fleece pants
Nylon wind pants or rain pants if you have them, do they have light ski pants, if yes they would be adequate rain pants
Fleece gloves
Fleece hat or at least an ear warmer
Map, study ways back to hut off ridge if necessary.
At least a couple of lights in group

Around Labor Day they will be closing Zealand Road (I think after the weekend but AMC  Highland Center would know more) so I would plan on either the A-Z trail or Ethan Pond.  AZ allows for some peakbagging options including Field & Tom + Willey but all three may be tough on the family.  Ethan pond on the other hand allow for a flatter trip some falls, a nice pond, some views from the trail & & easier day two before you head up to Mizpah.  Best views in this area IMO are from Hut, from Mt. Tom & Zealcliff which above the hut.

Day two back to car (if Ethan Pond, that’s a nice walk) Since you have a few miles in by the time you start walking uphill I’d probably just opt for Crawford Path & Mizpah Cut-off.  Going over Pierce doesn’t make much sense since that is planned next day.  If feeling good could do Jackson on way to hut by going up Webster-Jackson trail & then taking Webster Cliff to the hut.  (Can also take C-Path & Mizpah C-O and then walk over to Jackson & back to hut leaving some of your gear at hut.)

Next day your planned route looks good in good weather, I’d go over Eisenhower & Monroe loops on way to LOC & then around them on the C-Path on the way back.  If weather on day three looks like a wash out Pierce can be done in bad weather.  I know I don’t have a problem with finding the trail there & that is major concern as you can get to summit & then back to hut for warmth & drying with only a short amount of time exposed to wind & rain.  Key is not to venture where you feel you may be lost as that would add considerable time out.  There is a trail that heads into the Dry River Wilderness & to the Dry River  trail but it basically leads you into the woods, won’t bring you back to car, just lower on 302.  It can be used with Mt. Eisenhower Trail as a possible escape from Southern Presi’s back to hut but involves more time, distance & elevation gain. (I’d rather carry extra gear so I could stay on ridge except during brutal or worse weather. (40 or lower with winds almost capable of blowing me or over.)  Dry River from  LOC can be used too, again more effort, probably safer to descend Ammo & forget getting back to hut if travel on the Crawford Path was life threatening.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 23, 2005)

I concur with the Mount Washington Website.  Throw TWC out the window...it really sucks.  

As for gear, I was up on Monroe last Thursday and it was 45 F or so on the summit with a stiff breeze.  Mt Washington made it down to 31 F the night before and was 37 F after sunrise.  My point: be prepared for colder weather and maybe even snow.  I also concur with hats/mittens.  A pair of light shorts will do the trick for lower elevations...maybe if you have the shorts/pants convertible set...that helps.  I always bring a pair of windpants as well.  

Sounds like an interesting itinerary.  Refer to the AMC's White Mountain Guide for info on the Crawford Path and other trails...it's the authority.  

For side trips, the Willoughby Area is about 1.5 hours NW or so and offers lots of great variety for short day hikes.  Burke or Jay is also another  good choice. PM me for more info.  :wink:


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## David Metsky (Aug 23, 2005)

While the Zealand Road is going to be closed from Sept 6 due to bridge construction, there will be a hiker shuttle to take you up to the trailhead if you want.  That will cut the trip into Zealand at least in half.  Parking for this will be on 302.  You'd then either take the A-Z trail out to Crawford or come back out the road and drive to Crawford.

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/huts/zealand-road-closure.cfm

In Crawford Notch, park at the Mt Clinton Road lot, not in front the Highland Center.  It's a WMNF parking lot, so you'll need a parking pass.  If you don't already have a yearly pass ($25) you can buy day passes for $3/day.

If the weather is too nasty to go to Lakes of the Clouds, a trip to Pierce and Eisenhower will do.  Or even over to Webster and Jackson, although you can do those on your way out if the group is still going strong. 

In Sept expect temps at or below freezing at night.  Wool hat and gloves, neck gaitor, an extra layer above and beyond what you've listed.

And earplugs, don't forget the earplugs.

 -dave-


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## ts01 (Aug 23, 2005)

TWC = "The Weather Channel"?

Where do you buy parking passes for the Mt. Clinton Road lot -- at the lot itself, or elsewhere?

Earplugs?  Nah, my snoring drowns out all the annoying noise other folks make at night.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 23, 2005)

ts01 said:
			
		

> TWC = "The Weather Channel"?



Yes.  Work of the devil :wink:



> Where do you buy parking passes for the Mt. Clinton Road lot -- at the lot itself, or elsewhere?



Some lots have self-service stations, others don't.  I recall this being a main lot right off of 302, so it should have the self-service pay stations.  You can also stop at local gas/mini marts in the area and ask if they have the passes.  EMS sells them.  



> Earplugs?  Nah, my snoring drowns out all the annoying noise other folks make at night.



I never leave home without them.


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## ts01 (Aug 23, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> ts01 said:
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Well I read stories over the past few months that accuweather.com is the work of a heavy contributor to Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA), who introduced legislation to prohibit NOAA from sharing weather data with online and broadcast news services.  

Whose work is THAT???

I'm going to stick with the sites posted above.  And Farmer's Almanac.


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## Mike P. (Aug 23, 2005)

I use TWC as a long range forecast but don't put much weight on it beyond how miserable I might be four days from now wearing my rain gear. Also look at NECN & the TWC 7-Day planner although i look more at the map then listen.  I put more weight on the MWO a day or two out.

Usually use Gorham for Town/City unless in Franconia or southern area then I use Lincoln.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 23, 2005)

ts01 said:
			
		

> thetrailboss said:
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Good old tricky Ricky.   :roll: 

He always struck me as being kind of sleazy...not to get too political.


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## smitty77 (Aug 24, 2005)

ts01 said:
			
		

> Smitty, I had that same thought about going up to Zealand with only one days lunch and snacks; leaving the rest in the car and picking it up on the next day as we head back through to Mizpah Spring.  I assumed there was only one place to park but your "where are you parking" question suggests its not so simple. Where SHOULD I be parking, if I want to lighten the load this way?


I wasn't sure if you were planning on starting at Zealand Rd. a little ways up 302, crosing through the Notch, and then somehow getting back to the car at the end of the trip.  If this was the case, the gear transfer would not be possible.  Let me also add that Dave Metsky has a wealth of knowledge about the white mountains, and I personally hold his advice in high regard.  Be sure to check out his *website* for trip descriptions, phtots, and tons of useful information.

Good luck on the trip.
Smitty


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## salida (Aug 24, 2005)

www.weather.gov is by far the most accurate as TWC and Accuweather rely on the models that NOAA puts out... that being said the obs has the best weather forecasting for the higher summits, the auto road vertical temperature profile is very helpful in determining temperature at elevation  .... http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/arvtp/


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## ts01 (Sep 12, 2005)

Belated thanks everyone for the input on this.  Trip went very well - and the cold / wet weather gear was essential.  Of course the days we slogged up and down from Crawford Notch were warm and clear.  Then we had a day hiking from Mizpah Springs hut to Mt. Monroe and back, and it was window, cloudy, rainy, etc. up on the ridge!  Kids were reasonably warm and dry though given gear suggestions above.  

Zealand Falls hut was real fun with kids too -- the water in the river seemed pretty low so at the end of the day after dumping packs and boots in the hut we scrambled up the river in swimsuits and watershoes, swimming and splashing in various little falls and pools.  Awesome.  

The hut experience was just great on balance but the earplug thing is no joke.  We shared a room one night with a guy who not only snored but also talked in his sleep (and cursed, LOUDLY and angrily) all night long. Kind of funny in retrospect but at the time a nightmare.


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## smitty77 (Sep 13, 2005)

ts01 said:
			
		

> The hut experience was just great on balance but the earplug thing is no joke.  We shared a room one night with a guy who not only snored but also talked in his sleep (and cursed, LOUDLY and angrily) all night long. Kind of funny in retrospect but at the time a nightmare.


This is what I fear most if I go stay in a hut (haven't done so for 20 years or so).  Not for me, but for the other peole.  I also talk in my sleep, only without the vulgarity as far as I know.  The wife has to sometimes kick, punch, or elbow me to get me to quiet down before I wake the little one down the hall.      I don't think I could share a breakfast table in a hut with a dozen other people that I kept awake all night.    

Glad your trip was successful.  The kids will remember that for a long time to come.

Smitty


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