# The Most Important Resort Improvement for the Summer of 2010



## thetrailboss (May 19, 2010)

So we have had some great discussion about Cannon's Mittersill Chair, but there are other projects this summer that are underway including:


Sugarbush's base area development
Jay Peak's base area work, including a new hotel and ice arena
Sugarloaf's Burnt Mountain project
Hunter's new detach lift
Loon's South Peak trail expansion
Efforts to reopen Eaton Mountain in Maine
And other projects on the board but not announced yet.  So what do you think is the most important resort improvement and why?  Thoughts as to the amount of work being done this summer?  Is anything not being done that you'd like to see done?  And with limited resources, would you consider these to be priorities?  Chime in....


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## deadheadskier (May 19, 2010)

Is Burnt official?


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## threecy (May 19, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Sugarbush's base area development
> Jay Peak's base area work, including a new hotel and ice arena
> Sugarloaf's Burnt Mountain project
> Hunter's new detach lift
> ...



Hunter's new lift, by leaps and bounds.


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## RootDKJ (May 19, 2010)

Shawnee, PA is also putting in a new HSQ.  While off most people's radar here, this is a big improvement for a little ski area.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Shawnee, PA is also putting in a new HSQ. While off most people's radar here, this is a big improvement for a little ski area.


 
Yes, if you know of an improvement that is being done, *please add it to this thread.*  There's no way I can keep up with all the resorts


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Is Burnt official?


 
Seems to be all but certain.  I'm just throwing it out there...what is Saddleback doing this season?


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## drjeff (May 19, 2010)

Seems like all the very likely big stuff is listed.  

I'm guessing the new stuff headlines from the majority of resorts for this comign season will include lines like: 
"improved snowmaking efficiency"  
"new groomer" 
"regraded trail X to improve our guests experience" 
as well as "enhanced base ldoge services for our guests"


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## threecy (May 19, 2010)

RootDKJ said:


> Shawnee, PA is also putting in a new HSQ.



The other Shawnee (ME) is replacing their summit triple with another summit triple.


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## deadheadskier (May 19, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Seems to be all but certain.  I'm just throwing it out there...what is Saddleback doing this season?



I've only read forum rumors on the Burnt project.


I believe Saddleback is expanding Casa Blanca this summer.


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## SkiDork (May 19, 2010)

Killington is doing a very exciting:  Nothing.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2010)

SkiDork said:


> Killington is doing a very exciting: Nothing.


 
No mulch this year?


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## x10003q (May 19, 2010)

Gore Mountain will complete the installation of a 900' vertical triple in the old North Creek Ski Bowl and reopen 5 of the old Ski Bowl Trails. The Ski Bowl will now be connected to the main Gore base area and give Gore a vertical of about 2600'. They are also adding a 3500' glade on Burnt Ridge called Barkeater and a blue glade next to Wild Air (according to Mike Pratt via an interview posted on the Harvey Rd site.)

http://www.goremountain.com/about/improvements.cfm

Interview with Mike Pratt, mountain manager at Gore.
http://harvey44.blogspot.com/


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## wa-loaf (May 19, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> [*]Efforts to reopen Eaton Mountain in Maine



Hope they can get up and running and be successful. That's a nice little hill. I spent quite a few nights skiing there back in jr High.


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## TheBEast (May 19, 2010)

Nothing big going on at Berkshire East for the upcoming season.  We'll likely continue some glades work (expansion) in the fall.  Put in a new triple chair last season and they're putting in a bunch new additional zip lines this summer.


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## AdironRider (May 19, 2010)

I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind. 

That being said, Gore's new development could potentially have the largest impact of all, I think they still need a lift to downtown North Creek to reach the top. That and way more snowmaking capacity.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2010)

Thanks for the updates on Gore and the BEast.


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## deadheadskier (May 19, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.




Haven't you been in Jackson Hole for the past few years?  What are you basing this opinion on?

Having top notch base facilities is a must in condo buyers.  An area that averages 250 inches of natural can afford to invest in other priorities first.   I've heard minimal complaints about the snow surfaces at Sugarbush over the past several years and I know the 15 or so times I've skied there since 2004, the snow surfaces have always been great.

Outside of Stowe, Sugarbush has seen the most dramatic upgrade in facilities in Northern Vermont.  I think Win has a good handle on what his mountain needs to attract real estate investors.  I always have a positive experience when I visit SB.


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## frankm938 (May 19, 2010)

the rumor all winter at killington was that they were going to replace the snowdon quad with a HSQ.  havent heard anything about this in a while so im guessing that its not happening this summer or we would have heard about from the marketing dept.

what i would like to see them do... is give the tree runs some much needed TLC.  (clearing the overgrown brush, thinning some trees and cutting the low branches)
they did it on growler a couple of years ago and it became there best tree run.  anarcy and julio (and the area between the two) really need it now.


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## thetrailboss (May 19, 2010)

frankm938 said:


> the rumor all winter at killington was that they were going to replace the snowdon quad with a HSQ. havent heard anything about this in a while so im guessing that its not happening this summer or we would have heard about from the marketing dept.
> 
> what i would like to see them do... is give the tree runs some much needed TLC. (clearing the overgrown brush, thinning some trees and cutting the low branches)
> they did it on growler a couple of years ago and it became there best tree run. anarcy and julio (and the area between the two) really need it now.


 
They're going to have to do something with Snowdon soon because those lifts are getting pretty old.  The triple is pushing 40 years old and the quad is a Franken-lift of various parts and is about 20 years old as well.


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## WWF-VT (May 19, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.



Not a very well informed opinion for a guy who has said you have not skied at Sugarbush in a few years.


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## HowieT2 (May 19, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.
> 
> That being said, Gore's new development could potentially have the largest impact of all, I think they still need a lift to downtown North Creek to reach the top. That and way more snowmaking capacity.



The two new buildings they are erecting this summer are a huge improvement and there is no real estate development included in this phase.  That being said, what about real estate development done right would be so bad?
what about the "on mountain experience" needs investment? snowmaking capacity?


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## mikestaple (May 19, 2010)

Anything new on Ragged - are they going ahead on replacing that pokey Spear Mt Triple?


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## Lostone (May 19, 2010)

> I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start  focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the  pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further  behind.


The latest base development is not a real estate winner.  It is improving facilities.  There are no condos in it.   Just an improvement in guest services.


As for being in the back of the pack, I'd say...   Which pack?  I ask people how their day was, throughout the season.  Almost always the answer is great.   

You can't please everyone, but I think their average is pretty good.  ;-)


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

WWF-VT said:


> Not a very well informed opinion for a guy who has said you have not skied at Sugarbush in a few years.



+1


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

HowieT2 said:


> The two new buildings they are erecting this summer are a huge improvement and there is no real estate development included in this phase.  That being said, what about real estate development done right would be so bad?
> what about the "on mountain experience" needs investment? snowmaking capacity?



That's pretty much what he's on about regarding "on mountain experience".  While the two new buildings are definitely higher priority IMO given the market Win is driving for, you know where I stand on the snowmaking issue.  :angry::angry:


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

NM:  double post


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## thetrailboss (May 20, 2010)

Gonna throw this out there: judging by the interest in here, I'd say that the Mittersill Chair Project, which has been a long time coming, is probably the most significant improvement this season.  We're talking about the revitalization of one of the Northeast's oldest and most historic ski areas.


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## AdironRider (May 20, 2010)

Bush homers wont phase me. Ive skied there plenty and from what win himself and others have posted, have a pretty good idea of what theyve improved and havent improved over the two seasons since I last skied there. I have my opinion, you have yours. But if makes you feel better to get all uppity, so be it. 

I think they have poorer snow quality in times of duress, aka when it hasnt snowed in a week or so, or after a freeze thaw, or after an ice event, than most other VT resorts. Thats a sign of snowmaking, which IMO is what the market is looking for most these days given the economy. Im not talking about after they get a dump of their 250 annual inches, my backyard has great conditions when its actually snowing, who doesnt?


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Bush homers wont phase me. Ive skied there plenty and from what win himself and others have posted, have a pretty good idea of what theyve improved and havent improved over the two seasons since I last skied there. I have my opinion, you have yours. But if makes you feel better to get all uppity, so be it.
> 
> I think they have poorer snow quality in times of duress, aka when it hasnt snowed in a week or so, or after a freeze thaw, or after an ice event, than most other VT resorts. Thats a sign of snowmaking, which IMO is what the market is looking for most these days given the economy. Im not talking about after they get a dump of their 250 annual inches, my backyard has great conditions when its actually snowing, who doesnt?



Here we go again:

1) How is it that you don't understand that this year's improvements have nothing to so with real-estate?  This point has been raised half a dozen times and you haven't addressed it even once.  Are skier services not important in your world?  Fixing what was a major problem for the resort doesn't mean they view snowmaking improvements as not being necessary, just a tick lower in priority than having a world-class facility for rentals, kids programs, ticketing, ski school and adventure programs.

2) The problem with the second half of your post is that, based on decades of observed data, it's "actually snowing" a LOT more at SB than your home mountain - about 40% more.

None of this is to say that SB doesn't have snowmaking deficiencies.  I've spent far too much time here and on SkiMRV ranting on that very subject.  That said, just about anyone who has the vaguest familiarity with SB would agree that the improvements going in this summer will move the needle in a much more impactful way than snowmaking improvements.  Plus, you can't use EB-5 money for snowmaking improvements b/c there would be nothing for the investors to own.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Gonna throw this out there: judging by the interest in here, I'd say that the Mittersill Chair Project, which has been a long time coming, is probably the most significant improvement this season.  We're talking about the revitalization of one of the Northeast's oldest and most historic ski areas.



Why not make a poll?  I'd say the top 4 contenders are Mittersill, North Creek Ski Bowl at Gore (total game changer in the long run, IMO), Jay Peak base development,and the SB skier services bldgs. If it were up to me, I'd say Mittersill and Gore are neck and neck.  Not sure where I'd come down on that.


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## andrec10 (May 20, 2010)

threecy said:


> Hunter's new lift, by leaps and bounds.



I second, third and fourth that!!!:beer:


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## whitefaceoscar (May 20, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Why not make a poll?  I'd say the top 4 contenders are Mittersill, North Creek Ski Bowl at Gore (total game changer in the long run, IMO), Jay Peak base development,and the SB skier services bldgs. If it were up to me, I'd say Mittersill and Gore are neck and neck.  Not sure where I'd come down on that.



i think it depends on which one is more succesfull by the start of next season, its up to them to make it work.

as andrec says, the new chair at hunter is big, but not as big as bringing back a new area from the dead


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## AdironRider (May 20, 2010)

I have my opinion, you have yours. 

I think with the economic climate we are in, skiers are starting to care more about on snow product, to the off snow glitz on base lodges et al. You disagree. Move along now.


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## deadheadskier (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I have my opinion, you have yours.
> 
> I think with the economic climate we are in, skiers are starting to care more about on snow product, to the off snow glitz on base lodges et al. You disagree. Move along now.



I'd be interested in hearing input from win as to Sugarbush's skier visits over his ownership period.  Numbers mean more than opinions.

One of the biggest complaints at Killington is their lack of adequate skier services facilities for lessons, rentals, etc.  They blow a ton of snow.  

Smuggs has horid snowmaking, yet the place is mobbed.  Why?  Excellent skier service facilities and slopeside lodging.   That example alone would show what families care about.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I have my opinion, you have yours.
> 
> I think with the economic climate we are in, skiers are starting to care more about on snow product, to the off snow glitz on base lodges et al. You disagree. Move along now.



Awesome.  Keep moving the goal posts.  First the problem was the alleged focus on real-estate.  Now that it has been pointed out that you are 100% factually incorrect regarding the current phase of their build out, you retreat to some nondescript "off snow glitz on base lodges" meme.  Is that what it's come to for you?  Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, shouldn't every resort be like Silverton with nothing more than a yurt at the base?  Seeing as how your home mtn spent significant sums of money in the last three years on expanding the Kid's Kampus and adding a new parking lot, neither of which are relevant to the on-snow experience, it would be nice if you could be somewhat consistent in your approach.  

If having a dedicated structure with an actual foundation (instead of a tent) for lessons, ticketing and kids programs represent "off-snow glitz" then I guess SB is guilty as charged.   In the economic climate we're in, I think people want to feel like they are getting value for money, and it's hard to feel that way as a family of four if you're trooping around an ugly temporary village featuring large tents and double-wides.  It would be helpful if your opinions were backed by even a small bit of factual support instead of provincial shit-stirring.


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## AdironRider (May 20, 2010)

Get off your high horse. Sugarbush doesnt have tents, and Whiteface is no longer my home mountain. 

As I said, move along now. But youre just that kid picking fights these days, so I suppose those words are uncomprehensible. Perhaps I should break out my thesaurus and maybe you'll understand.


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## dmc (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Get off your high horse. Sugarbush doesnt have tents, and Whiteface is no longer my home mountain.
> 
> As I said, move along now. But youre just that kid picking fights these days, so I suppose those words are uncomprehensible. Perhaps I should break out my thesaurus and maybe you'll understand.



 awesome....

Don't let the F'rs get ya down...


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Get off your high horse. Sugarbush doesnt have tents, and Whiteface is no longer my home mountain.


As ever, you are uninformed.  This is what it is being replaced.  It was the most spacious and modern structure within the interim village.  Note the edge of the double wide trailer on the far left of the photo which served as the rentals building.







Here's a tip:

1) Get facts

then 

2) Spew

The other way around doesn't help to advance your cause.



> As I said, move along now. But *youre* just that kid picking fights these days, so I suppose those words are *uncomprehensible*. Perhaps I should break out my thesaurus and maybe you'll understand.



I'll let the irony of this particular sentence speak for itself.


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## AdironRider (May 20, 2010)

Oh boy its the grammar police. License and registration please....


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## deadheadskier (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider 

You have to admit Tin has a point.   Families spending $75 a ticket don't want to have to get their kids saddled up in rentals and ready for lessons in a trailer park and tent village.  That's feeder hill facilities, not destination VT resort.

I can 100% see why Sugarbush has that upgrade at the top of their priority list.


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## dmc (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Oh boy its the grammar police. License and registration please....



Opinion police as well...


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Oh boy its the grammar police. License and registration please....



They should be easy enough to find - right next to the thesaurus you threatened to break out in the post I was responding to.

I love that your participation in this discussion has now boiled down to bitching about the grammar police.  Care to continue weighing on on Sugarbush's misplaced investment dollars?


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## dmc (May 20, 2010)

whitefaceoscar said:


> as andrec says, the new chair at hunter is big, but not as big as bringing back a new area from the dead



I disagree..

There's probably a reason those areas are dead..  I'll take a new chair at Hunter over the reopening of Cortina Valley down the road any day...

Just my opinion...


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> I disagree..
> 
> There's probably a reason those areas are dead..  I'll take a new chair at Hunter over the reopening of Cortina Valley down the road any day...
> 
> Just my opinion...



From the perspective of a Hunter local, how big of a deal is the new 6-pack?  Does it's installation, and the plans for a HSQ on the West Side next year give you concern regarding snow surfaces or trail crowding?


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## dmc (May 20, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> From the perspective of a Hunter local, how big of a deal is the new 6-pack?  Does it's installation, and the plans for a HSQ on the West Side next year give you concern regarding snow surfaces or trail crowding?



It's huge!!!

No I'm not worried about trail crowding..


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> It's huge!!!
> 
> No I'm not worried about trail crowding..



Why and why not?  I'm just not familiar enough with Hunter to understands the impacts, or lack thereof.


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## dmc (May 20, 2010)

Because if you space the chairs out enough it's close to the same uphill capacity..

And the West side chair is supposed to come with a couple new trails..

And the old quad was dying..  So this it good...


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## andrec10 (May 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> I disagree..
> 
> There's probably a reason those areas are dead..  I'll take a new chair at Hunter over the reopening of Cortina Valley down the road any day...
> 
> Just my opinion...



How bout Hunter buy Cortina and make it one Huge Park! Keep the brat kiddies over there!


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

dmc said:


> Because if you space the chairs out enough it's close to the same uphill capacity.


I didn't know they'd announced that.  Good stuff.



> And the West side chair is supposed to come with a couple new trails..



Didn't know that either.  Must be gratifying to see for loyalists who have waited a long time for both of those upgrades.


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## AdironRider (May 20, 2010)

You brought it up Tin, just saying. Apparently that means I boiled down to it. Get over yourself. I have my opinion, you have yours.


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## dmc (May 20, 2010)

andrec10 said:


> How bout Hunter buy Cortina and make it one Huge Park! Keep the brat kiddies over there!



I like Cortina empty...

We snowmobile up and snowboard down...


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## Tin Woodsman (May 20, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> You brought it up Tin, just saying. Apparently that means I boiled down to it. Get over yourself. I have my opinion, you have yours.



This statement gets to the heart of what makes the Internet beautiful.  You can make completely baseless claims that are proven to be categorically incorrect in every fashion, and then just chalk it up to a difference in opinion.

Sugarbush is focused on glitzy real-estate!

Oops, there's no residential in the new buildings - just critical skier services.

There's no tents!

Oh, what's that?  A picture of the tent in question?   Well it's just my opinion is all.

Pathetic.


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

Thats the nicest freaking tent you or I have ever seen. I still think base area improvement should be done after on hill improvements. You can call me pathetic, insult my lack of grammar on an internet forum (oh my!), my intelligence, the list goes on, but I dont give a damn. 

To please AdironRider I want the best damn on snow experience before anything else gets a dime spent on it. Get it? You dont like it, so resort to picking apart ever single thing I have to say about it. Bullshit. All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate. This is my opinion, and I can say whatever I want. Deal with it. Ill keep on keeping on, and Im sure it will keep on pissing you off. Its kinda fun really. Ive had a good day, pissed off threecy and you. Who's next, time will tell. I call it like I want. 

I boot up in the car and never spend a second or one dime in a resorts base facilities, naturally Im going to see anything else as a waste of money. You dont. Am I the regular customer, of course not, but I can say anything I damn well please on the internet, much to your chagrin. Boo hoo, some made up internet persona thinks Im pathetic, I think youre hilarious. But Im sure youll reply with a bold fonted reply about my lack of apostrophe use, thus my opinions are null and void. So be it, Ive been lambasted on this forum plenty of times before, and will plenty of times in the future. My brash internet persona brings this, Ive gotten used to it.


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> To please AdironRider I want the best damn on snow experience before anything else gets a dime spent on it. Get it?



I hope you don't have such a 'me' centric idea when it comes to owning your own restaurant in a ski town as you've stated is a desire of yours; it you do, you'll fail.



AdironRider said:


> All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate.



which is pretty much the proven winning formula for all major ski resorts in the US that have shown facility expansion and economic growth over the past several decades.  Of the 250 mil being spent at Stowe, how much of that do you think has been spent on snowmaking?  I bet 1% or less.



AdironRider said:


> I boot up in the car and never spend a second or one dime in a resorts base facilities, naturally Im going to see anything else as a waste of money.



Got it.  You've been hammering the snowmaking investment drum not because of what you think is right for the business, but it's because it's what YOU want.  If I were Win, I'd care very little about the guy only buying a pass and booting up in the lot.  


talk about FAIL.  I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  You came in talking about SB improvements like it was the right business decision to invest in snowmaking; even had the comment a bit back about how this is what people want in this economic climate.  I heard you out.  You haven't skied there in several years.  You proved further that you know very little about Sugarbush with your input that there weren't tents for skier services. 

Sorry AdironRider, it's one thing to have an opinion; it's another to act like an uniformed know it all.  You've proven the latter.  This last series of comments from you really shows that.


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## Terry (May 21, 2010)

threecy said:


> The other Shawnee (ME) is replacing their summit triple with another summit triple.


They are also installing an Emmegi conveyor loader to load the new triple. Never seen one of these but it is supposed to let the lift run faster. Anyone ever used one before? Sounds odd to me but maybe it will work well. Time will tell.


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## HowieT2 (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Thats the nicest freaking tent you or I have ever seen. I still think base area improvement should be done after on hill improvements. You can call me pathetic, insult my lack of grammar on an internet forum (oh my!), my intelligence, the list goes on, but I dont give a damn.
> 
> To please AdironRider I want the best damn on snow experience before anything else gets a dime spent on it. Get it? You dont like it, so resort to picking apart ever single thing I have to say about it. Bullshit. All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate. This is my opinion, and I can say whatever I want. Deal with it. Ill keep on keeping on, and Im sure it will keep on pissing you off. Its kinda fun really. Ive had a good day, pissed off threecy and you. Who's next, time will tell. I call it like I want.
> 
> I boot up in the car and never spend a second or one dime in a resorts base facilities, naturally Im going to see anything else as a waste of money. You dont. Am I the regular customer, of course not, but I can say anything I damn well please on the internet, much to your chagrin. Boo hoo, some made up internet persona thinks Im pathetic, I think youre hilarious. But Im sure youll reply with a bold fonted reply about my lack of apostrophe use, thus my opinions are null and void. So be it, Ive been lambasted on this forum plenty of times before, and will plenty of times in the future. My brash internet persona brings this, Ive gotten used to it.



The irony is that Tin and I would think management itself agree that there needs to be investment in snowmaking at SB.  So no one disagrees with what you're saying about improving snowmaking capacity.  But there has to be a priority of investing limited resources, not that they take on so much debt that they handicap the operation for the long term.  Anyone who has visited SB should realize that for the majority of the market, the new buildings are a much higher priority than improving the snowmaking.  The new structures will provide the visitor to SB (as opposed to us regulars) with a much more enjoyable experience, thereby encouraging more to return and/or to become regulars/stakeholders.  Improvements to snow making might make for marginally better skiing a couple of days of a season, but frankly, it's not even a close call as to what is more important.


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

You guys realize this is a flame war between Tin and I right? Settle down.

And bringing up my career Deadhead, weaksauce. You think my real life has anything to do with an internet thread. Puhlease.


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

you display a know it all attitude online.  I'm not the first to notice this or call you out on it.  I'm guessing it translates pretty accurately in 3D.


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## marcski (May 21, 2010)

I don't know about you..but with all the flame wars aside, I think its really cool that 2 of the biggest ones are bringing back the old!  Mittersill and North Creek Ski Bowl!


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## Greg (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> My brash internet persona brings this, Ive gotten used to it.



So does that mean you're a cool chill guy in person? I'll never get the internet tough guy thing. So ghey...


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## speden (May 21, 2010)

The improvement I was most looking forward to was for Ragged to replace the devastatingly slow Spear triple.  I thought that was on the roadmap for this summer, but there's no mention of it on their website.  Not sure if that means it's not happening or not.  They haven't exactly been good about keeping their website up to date.  Anyway I'm crossing my fingers that it's going to happen.


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## Puck it (May 21, 2010)

speden said:


> The improvement I was most looking forward to was for Ragged to replace the devastatingly slow Spear triple. I thought that was on the roadmap for this summer, but there's no mention of it on their website. Not sure if that means it's not happening or not. They haven't exactly been good about keeping their website up to date. Anyway I'm crossing my fingers that it's going to happen.


 
Maybe they can buy a used double from the other thread on Cannon!!!!!!!:wink:


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## Puck it (May 21, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> you display a know it all attitude online. I'm not the first to notice this or call you out on it. I'm guessing it translates pretty accurately in 3D.


 
Pot meet kettle!!!!:-D


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

Pot meet kettle indeed.


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

yep, got me pegged


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## Riverskier (May 21, 2010)

Puck it said:


> Pot meet kettle!!!!:-D



Beat me to it....


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## catskillman (May 21, 2010)

Check out the base webcam on the Hunter site - for this years improvement??


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## dmc (May 21, 2010)

catskillman said:


> Check out the base webcam on the Hunter site - for this years improvement??



I can't wait to try this out!!!


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## Tin Woodsman (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Thats the nicest freaking tent you or I have ever seen. I still think base area improvement should be done after on hill improvements. You can call me pathetic, insult my lack of grammar on an internet forum (oh my!), my intelligence, the list goes on, but I dont give a damn.


Apparently you do give a damn, otherwise you couldn't continue posting.  

You can call it what you want, but it is, in fact, a tent.  That tent was right next to a pretty ugly double-wide.  It was all 3rd class, and always temporary, for a resort that aspires to be 1st class amongst its competitors.  As for the grammar, perhaps you shouldn't have opened the door by threatening to bust out your thesaurus.  But I'm sure it's "your opinion" that I went there first.



> To please AdironRider I want the best damn on snow experience before anything else gets a dime spent on it. Get it? You dont like it, so resort to picking apart ever single thing I have to say about it. Bullshit.


I don't like it b/c it's 100% inaccurate.  You get your panties in a bunch when I call attention to that fact.  That's your problem, not mine.



> All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate.


So I guess they didn't spend money on:

1) Installing a critical new base area HSQ at SB North

2) Replacing the C-Rock double chair with one having the EXACT SAME capacity as the old one (600/hr) even though that was not the financially optimal decision to take

3) Installing new low-e guns with much higher productivity/quality on Ripcord, FIS, Stein's Run, Spring Fling and other core/high visibility runs

4) Increasing the size of the grooming fleet

5) Adding over 100 acres of new gladed terrain

6) Most importantly, engaging their land owners/managers (the NFS) in an extensive, expensive and extended process to complete a new forestry management plan that sets the stage for continued on-mountain expansion and evolution in the years to come

That was all in my imagination.  

Moreover, you refer to the new building as amenities for the real-estate when that couldn't be further from the truth.  Quite literally 100%, verifiably untrue.  Yet, you hide behind the pathetic cop out that it's "just your opinion".  Such weak sauce from you.  

Once again, for all to see, they are building two structures.  One is a Children's Adventure Center with all kids programs, rentals and lessons plus a small cafeteria/food outlet of some kind.  It houses everything for kids except daycare, which remains in SB Village.  The other building is simply the Skier Services Building containing rentals, ticketing, lessons and adventure programs for adults.  These two structures are designed to serve everyone who comes to SB and are key components of Win's strategy to target the family market that Killington has abandoned.  To imply that they are simply appendages for the benefit of the 64 units in Claybrook (as opposed to the other 300,000 people who ski SB every year) is just asinine and should speak for itself.



> This is my opinion, and I can say whatever I want. Deal with it.


In other news, AdironRider was last seen holding his breath b/c he didn't get his way at the local Starbucks.



> I boot up in the car and never spend a second or one dime in a resorts base facilities, naturally Im going to see anything else as a waste of money.


Which is exactly why your perspective on things not only should be ignored, but is so uninformed in the first place.




> So be it, Ive been lambasted on this forum plenty of times before, and will plenty of times in the future. My brash internet persona brings this, Ive gotten used to it.


You GO GIRL!


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## dmc (May 21, 2010)

I think you guys are being pretty acerbic with this guy.. 

jmho


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Apparently you do give a damn, otherwise you couldn't continue posting.




Ill keep going since this seems to have turned into a contest for who will have the last word.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Ill keep going since this seems to have turned into a contest for who will have the last word.



It sure as heck isn't about your original claims, which just make you look foolish, so might as well change the subject turn it into a pissing contest.


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## dmc (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still *think *Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.




All the guy did was offer an opinion... 
And you all just jumped all over him...

For real..   You may not agree but don't rip into him..

Is this a place where people can offer opinions? 
Or is a place where you get shut down and ridiculed when offering an opinion?


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

The Sugarbush halo effect strikes again. It all started with a simple statement of personal preference. Meh. 

Lets start a MRG and snowboarding thread, its been a while. 

Throw in a dash of Sundown. Simmer until done.


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## thetrailboss (May 21, 2010)

Gentlemen:  let's get back to the topic at hand.


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

dmc said:


> I think you guys are being pretty acerbic with this guy..
> 
> jmho



door is swinging both ways as far as I can tell.



dmc said:


> All the guy did was offer an opinion...
> And you all just jumped all over him...
> 
> For real..   You may not agree but don't rip into him..
> ...



I could go through and do the multi quote thing and show that his argument started out with what he thought was best for business at SB then became about what he personally wants, about how he was bashing real estate development when that isn't even what is being worked on right now, his lack of knowledge about the tents / trailers, etc.

People are free to post opinions all they want, but when you come from a proven uninformed position; you open yourself up for criticism.  I expect the same thing if I come strong with an opinion on a subject I'm uninformed about.  Generally, if I blatantly don't know something about an area, I tend to STFU about it, but that's just me.

People are certainly free to offer an opinion.  Others a free to disagree.  The riduculing ascerbic behavior was a two way street.  He just happened to not have others agreeing with his position.

I'll leave it at that.


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

So apparently my career and personal personality have something to do with it? Great moderation. 

DMC quoted my original statement. Everyone freaked out about it. So I came back strong. Get over yourselves. Tell me again how building a bunch of buildings is not some form of real estate? Just because its not condos doesnt mean ny opinion doesnt matter. Commercial real estate OH MY! Apparently that doesnt count because it would defeat your point. How is that uninformed? Ive already listed exactly what they did in phase 1 and 2, was I off, so sorry I didnt spell it out for you and list exactly how many bricks and actual bedrooms are involved when I say "real estate development". 

So continue on insulting my career, grammar, using bold type, and getting all the rest of the SB homer crew involved. I still think they can live with that taj mahal of a tent to rent skis out of and invest in some real on snow product enhancement going forward. You disagree, you just cant admit to yourselves that someone else might have a different view of what they feel is important. Tin references his picture as the equivalent of Silverton. If hes ever been there he would realize that comparison is piss poor. Theyve got two shoddy yurts and a beat up bus. They do have a helicopter though, thats one nice way to improve the on mountain experience.


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## twinplanx (May 21, 2010)

you SB homers are a bunch of clowns! Its a great area, no doubt. But  I'm feelin'ADKRider here. Maybe there just butt hurt cause the Empire State gets the snowl & some tax help...


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Bush homers wont phase me. Ive skied there plenty and from what win himself and others have posted, have a pretty good idea of what theyve improved and havent improved over the two seasons since I last skied there. I have my opinion, you have yours. But if makes you feel better to get all uppity, so be it.



AR - best I can tell, you threw the first grenade.  

People questioned your opinion based upon you not having been there in a few years.  I think that's a fairly valid reason to question someone's opinions.  They did so in a civil way.

You're the one who took it personally and started firing back with insults first.  Reap what you sow....


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## AdironRider (May 21, 2010)

More like a water baloon if you ask me...

Their on snow product has had little change, Win wont even answer my questions on how much has been spent on base improvement vs on snow. The silence is deafening. 

You should take some notes from the Trailboss Deadhead. At least he plays his moderator role correctly. What exactly am I reaping? It should be clear Im not going to go cry to my mom about some internet SB homers getting all worked up and calling me pathetic.


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

What's your point now?  Trying to hurt my feelings by telling me you think Trailboss is a better moderator?

All I was showing was you were the one who put the fists up first.  That's it.  

yet, you got to keep coming strong.

that's all I got for you.  go ahead, you can have the last word.  I know how much it means to you.


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## Newpylong (May 21, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> More like a water baloon if you ask me...
> 
> Their on snow product has had little change, Win wont even answer my questions on how much has been spent on base improvement vs on snow. The silence is deafening.
> 
> You should take some notes from the Trailboss Deadhead. At least he plays his moderator role correctly. What exactly am I reaping? It should be clear Im not going to go cry to my mom about some internet SB homers getting all worked up and calling me pathetic.



I've been letting this one ride out but come on dude, you're preaching to the choir on this one. Their "on snow" product? The place and snow speaks for itself. What else is there to improve? ASC pumped 27 Million into the place in 1996.  They could use some more uphill pumping capacity but other than that the snowmaking is absolutely fine and every season has shown that time and time again.

What they HAVE fallen behind on is on mountain real estate and they are correcting that. I think any skier in the east would rank them right up their with Stowe, Jay and the Loaf overall. They haven't fallen behind at all...


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## snoseek (May 21, 2010)

Hmmmmmm skiing sure was good today!


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## deadheadskier (May 21, 2010)

speden said:


> The improvement I was most looking forward to was for Ragged to replace the devastatingly slow Spear triple.  I thought that was on the roadmap for this summer, but there's no mention of it on their website.  Not sure if that means it's not happening or not.  They haven't exactly been good about keeping their website up to date.  Anyway I'm crossing my fingers that it's going to happen.



As a passholder there last season and planned pass holder for next season, this is defiitely what I'm most interested in personally as well.  I emailed Bob to see if any information will be forthcoming regarding on mountain improvements.  I did meet many folks on the hill last year who didn't mind that 12 minute ride and weren't for a HSQ.  I would not be one of them.   I don't mind long slow lifts if they access 1500 vert of decent pitch.  Spear is more like 800 with 300 of run out.  Fun skiing, but a long ride for such short terrain.


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## skiadikt (May 21, 2010)

snoseek said:


> Hmmmmmm skiing sure was good today!



a-basin?


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## snoseek (May 22, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> a-basin?



Yeah. We need a hijack.


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## WWF-VT (May 22, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Their on snow product has had little change, Win wont even answer my questions on how much has been spent on base improvement vs on snow. The silence is deafening.



Why do you think Win should feel obligated to answer your questions ?  

Call me a Sugarbush homer because I am one.  I'm invested in the mountain as a passholder, property owner and my family partipcates  in seasonal programs.  There is no other mountain that I can think of where the principal owner is on the mountain most every day and meets with his customers regularly.  In the fall there is a community day where he presents the updated mountain plan to the community and he regularly responds on the SkiMRV Forum.


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## HowieT2 (May 22, 2010)

dmc said:


> All the guy did was offer an opinion...
> And you all just jumped all over him...
> 
> For real..   You may not agree but don't rip into him..
> ...



but his opinion is completely uninformed.  Tin would be the first one to vote for increased snow making capacity, but the capital improvements they are undertaking are unarguably, a higher priority.  They may not do anything for the guy who boots up in the lot and heads right to the lift or even for someone such as me who has little use for equipment rentals and or kids ski school.  But for the majority of visitors and specifically the families who they want to return for more visits and or become regulars, the buildings are vitally important.  Dealing with ski school and rentals is a process fraught with frustration under the best of circumstances.  Doing it in inadequate facilities can ruin the experience of being at the mtn.  There can be perfect snow under bluebird skies, but if your stuck renting equipment in a packed tent and dropping your kids off to a chaotic ski school, your not going to want to come back for more.  The new facilities are vital so that the casual skier and family can enjoy the on mtn experience throughout the season.  any investment in snowmaking capacity would at best, improve the skiing a few days a year.  and it's not like they haven't been making incremental improvements to the snowmaking (low e-guns, strategy) and they certainly have added significant glades.  again the latter benefiting the "tourist" skier more than the regulars since we were skiing those anyway.

as for the homer thing-there are many issues that we can complain about.  for example, personally, I think it's a mistake not to include the day care in the new ski school building.  But criticizing the new buildings in favor of investing in snowmaking capacity or railing against it as RE development, is inane.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 22, 2010)

dmc said:


> All the guy did was offer an opinion...
> And you all just jumped all over him...
> 
> For real..   You may not agree but don't rip into him..
> ...



dmc - 

Howie pretty much covered it, but I certainly don't have a problem with AR or anyone offering their opinions.  It's a free country.  But that's not what he did.  Look at the words you quoted.   That's as inaccurate as me coming in here and saying I still think that Hunter should stop focusing its marketing efforts on snobs from Greenwich. 

You would likely point out that they don't focus their marketing efforts on snobs from Greenwich and you can't understand where I got that impression.  Is it then appropriate for me to reply, "well that's just my opinion and you can't change that, you Hunter homer!"  

Because AR's entire thesis was similarly misplaced as it pertains to SB.  Yes, the ski industry seems to be moving bodily away from real-estate development as a driving force during these economic times (as if they have a choice).  And I certainly agree with him that this is a very positive development - it is (or at least should be) about the skiing.  So the irony is that we agree on this broader point.  

That said, is it not fair for others who are more familiar with the situation to point out that SB is not, in fact, concentrating on real-estate development?  Surely you see the difference between replacing an interim skier services complex consisting of tents and double wides on the one hand, and the construction of a new residential real-estate project on the other.  Right?  Do those two things have anything to do with each other besides having 4 walls and a roof?



AdironRider said:


> *All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development*, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate.



I thought I'd re-quote this so you could see why people are reacting.  There are two statements in the sentence above, both of which are clearly and demonstrably false.  Why is it unacceptable to point out where he is dead wrong?  The final fragment is certainly an opinion, and that's about all I can say for it.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 22, 2010)

Newpylong said:


> I've been letting this one ride out but come on dude, you're preaching to the choir on this one. Their "on snow" product? The place and snow speaks for itself. What else is there to improve? ASC pumped 27 Million into the place in 1996.  They could use some more uphill pumping capacity but other than that the snowmaking is absolutely fine and every season has shown that time and time again.
> 
> What they HAVE fallen behind on is on mountain real estate and they are correcting that. I think any skier in the east would rank them right up their with Stowe, Jay and the Loaf overall. They haven't fallen behind at all...



Indeed, their on snow product is so inferior, they've consistently grown their skier visits since Summit Ventures bought the place.


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## dmc (May 22, 2010)

HowieT2 said:


> but his opinion is completely uninformed.



So that means people can just jump all over him?!?!?!

Come on people - your all better then that...


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## Greg (May 22, 2010)




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## dmc (May 22, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> dmc -
> 
> Howie pretty much covered it, but I certainly don't have a problem with AR or anyone offering their opinions.  It's a free country.  But that's not what he did.  Look at the words you quoted.   That's as inaccurate as me coming in here and saying I still think that Hunter should stop focusing its marketing efforts on snobs from Greenwich.



So..?  It's still his opinion..

Unless someone bold face lies and says something is fact about Hunter - I won't get too upset.  Maybe come back with my own opinion...

I do think Hunter should concentrate more on on mountain experience..  And less on hotels and condos..  But thats my opinion..  and it's not shared by everyone - but i don't put the hammer down on these people...  I actually ask for more details on why they think such things...

"Seek first to understand and then to be understood"


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## MrMagic (May 22, 2010)

wow ten pages and no one has brought up the  improvements at ski sundown yet?


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## Tin Woodsman (May 22, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.
> 
> That being said, Gore's new development could potentially have the largest impact of all, I think they still need a lift to downtown North Creek to reach the top. That and way more snowmaking capacity.





WWF-VT said:


> Not a very well informed opinion for a guy who has said you have not skied at Sugarbush in a few years.





HowieT2 said:


> The two new buildings they are erecting this summer are a huge improvement and there is no real estate development included in this phase.  That being said, what about real estate development done right would be so bad?
> what about the "on mountain experience" needs investment? snowmaking capacity?





Lostone said:


> The latest base development is not a real estate winner.  It is improving facilities.  There are no condos in it.   Just an improvement in guest services.
> 
> 
> As for being in the back of the pack, I'd say...   Which pack?  I ask people how their day was, throughout the season.  Almost always the answer is great.
> ...





AdironRider said:


> Bush homers wont phase me. Ive skied there plenty and from what win himself and others have posted, have a pretty good idea of what theyve improved and havent improved over the two seasons since I last skied there. I have my opinion, you have yours. But if makes you feel better to get all uppity, so be it.


dmc -

I'm sorry, but that's not exactly how it went down.  Quoted above are AR's original post plus the three responses to that post.  All of those responses are civil and factual, with the most inflammatory thing I can find being someone who said his opinion was uninformed (which was subsequently illustrated pretty clearly).  Far from jumping on him, the context was entirely civil, until his response where he starts calling people homers and accusing them of getting uppity.  Me thinks someone has a bit of a persecution complex.  He's the internet message board equivalent of the kid who kills his parents and then asks the judge for leniency b/c he's an orphan.  

He spewed a completely uninformed opinion and then took offense when it was pointed out he was incorrect as pertained to SB.  I'm struggling to find where he got jumped on for this opinion prior to him getting aggro himself.


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## AdironRider (May 22, 2010)

I still dont see how I was incorrect, noting that commercial real estate, is still real estate, but to each their own. But keep on keepin on Tin, were obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, so get over it. (which I have mentioned about 5 times so far in this thread but you cant seem to back down yourself)


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## Tin Woodsman (May 23, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still dont see how I was incorrect, noting that commercial real estate, is still real estate, but to each their own. But keep on keepin on Tin, were obviously not going to see eye to eye on this, so get over it. (which I have mentioned about 5 times so far in this thread but you cant seem to back down yourself)



It's easy to be correct when you keep moving the goal posts.  

You still sure they've done nothing but invest in real estate since they bought the mountain?  You were absolutely certain just yesterday.   

How about their investment in "glitzy real-estate" this year?  You still sure that's just nothing but an amenity for the Clay Brook owners?  You wrote that with such conviction what seems like only moments ago.

Interesting how you're no longer trying to push that story while claiming to be the innocent victim of all the evil SB homers ganging up on you.  

What a fraud.


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## andrec10 (May 23, 2010)

I feel a GrilledSteezeSandwich Coming on!!!:wink:


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## dmc (May 23, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> dmc -
> 
> I'm sorry, but that's not exactly how it went down.  Quoted above are AR's original post plus the three responses to that post.  All of those responses are civil and factual, with the most inflammatory thing I can find being someone who said his opinion was uninformed (which was subsequently illustrated pretty clearly).  Far from jumping on him, the context was entirely civil, until his response where he starts calling people homers and accusing them of getting uppity.  Me thinks someone has a bit of a persecution complex.  He's the internet message board equivalent of the kid who kills his parents and then asks the judge for leniency b/c he's an orphan.
> 
> He spewed a completely uninformed opinion and then took offense when it was pointed out he was incorrect as pertained to SB.  I'm struggling to find where he got jumped on for this opinion prior to him getting aggro himself.



Your conveniently missing this one - which basically says...He hasn't been around so his opinion is suspect..  Which kinda sets the tenor of the conversation.



deadheadskier said:


> Haven't you been in Jackson Hole for the past few years?  What are you basing this opinion on?


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## AdironRider (May 23, 2010)

Talk about moving the goalposts, where did I say the only thing theyve invested is in real estate? I just said they need to stop investing in real estate. Break out the quotes if need be


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## riverc0il (May 23, 2010)

Definitely almost June! If they could get Xanedu open, that would be the best resort improvement AND it might help the summer dole drums a little bit. Or... perhaps not.


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## deadheadskier (May 24, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> As a passholder there last season and planned pass holder for next season, this is defiitely what I'm most interested in personally as well.  I emailed Bob to see if any information will be forthcoming regarding on mountain improvements.  I did meet many folks on the hill last year who didn't mind that 12 minute ride and weren't for a HSQ.  I would not be one of them.   I don't mind long slow lifts if they access 1500 vert of decent pitch.  Spear is more like 800 with 300 of run out.  Fun skiing, but a long ride for such short terrain.



Bob responded:

 We tried hard to get lift on schedule for this summer but in this economy, it was impossible to finance - so it will have to wait for another year.  Many small improvements will be noticable, however - From additional glading to bag storage room, to improvements to snowmaking.


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## ski_resort_observer (May 24, 2010)

Wow, this has turned into an entertaining thread. :thumbs up: When I read thru the thread, for a second there I thought I was reading Tin defending the Bush. Must have been just a passing notion. :lol: 

I think most know that the Bush will never have 100% snowmaking coverage cause of this little place called Castlerock. I've been there and experienced all the bad thaw/rain/freeze events and the feedback I hear is that the Bush does a great job recovering. Personally, I'm always amazed. What the Bush lacks in snowmaking is more than made up with an amazing grooming crew. Under normal conditions they till/push/carve cord on 60 trails every night. If snow surface is important to you than the grooming crews at all ski hills should be your idols. :wink: Just my personal opinion, everyone has a right to one.

New interesting developement that might have a positive effect on the snowmaking is a company has proposed a wind farm on the summit ridge of the Northfield Range along the east of the MRV. It's a longshot IMHO but wind power is starting to make some in roads in Vermont so who knows. It will take at least 2/3 years before they can build if it passes thru all the headwinds this project is sure to feel and that's a big if. 

http://www.valleyreporter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3207&Itemid=38


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## riverc0il (May 24, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> New interesting developement that might have a positive effect on the snowmaking is a company has proposed a wind farm on the summit ridge of the Northfield Range along the east of the MRV. It's a longshot IMHO but wind power is starting to make some in roads in Vermont so who knows. It will take at least 2/3 years before they can build if it passes thru all the headwinds this project is sure to feel and that's a big if.


Would be interested to hear Bush's stance on that!  

I would grab some popcorn for this one. The MRV kinda has some of that hippie crunchy granola flavor to it but it also has that money flavor to it as well and people love their views. Will be interesting to see which side winds out on that issue. They got them off the Mass coast though, so I guess anything can happen.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 25, 2010)

dmc said:


> Your conveniently missing this one - which basically says...He hasn't been around so his opinion is suspect..  Which kinda sets the tenor of the conversation.



Wait a sec - that's a perfectly legitimate comment.  Is it not likely that you are less familiar with a place when you move across the country?  Even if you accept that this comment somehow sets the tone, there's no reasonable interpretation of that comment that constitutes having "jumped all over him".  He made a definitive statement.  He was questioned on it.  It was ultimately revealed that we wasn't quite as up to speed on the facts as he thought and now he's playing the victim card.   I don't see how it's any more complicated than that.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 25, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> Would be interested to hear Bush's stance on that!
> 
> I would grab some popcorn for this one. The MRV kinda has some of that hippie crunchy granola flavor to it but it also has that money flavor to it as well and people love their views. Will be interesting to see which side winds out on that issue. They got them off the Mass coast though, so I guess anything can happen.



Not sure they'd ever say it in public, but depending on the owner of those turbines, I bet they'd be very interested.   They are currently locked into a monolopy provider in Green Mountain Power.  Win has posted on SkiMRV that they are frequently (almost every day) cut off from their negotiated rate on the best snowmaking days (i.e. the coldest days), so they are forced to "buy through" and pay a much higher rate to continue snowmaking.  Given the amount of power snowmaking consumes, this has to be an enormous expense.  If those turbines could somehow shake up this dynamic such that it helped to reduce that penalty, it would be a good thing for fans of more snowmaking at SB.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 25, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> Talk about moving the goalposts, where did I say the only thing theyve invested is in real estate? I just said they need to stop investing in real estate. Break out the quotes if need be





AdironRider said:


> To please AdironRider I want the best damn on snow experience before anything else gets a dime spent on it. Get it? You dont like it, so resort to picking apart ever single thing I have to say about it. Bullshit. *All Sugarbush has done has spent money on phase 1 (massive real estate development) and now phase 2, which is amenities for said real estate development, which in my mind is just a direct extension of real estate. This is my opinion, and I can say whatever I want. Deal with it.* Ill keep on keeping on, and Im sure it will keep on pissing you off. Its kinda fun really. Ive had a good day, pissed off threecy and you. Who's next, time will tell. I call it like I want.



Quotes = broken out.

You suck at the Internet.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 25, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Wow, this has turned into an entertaining thread. :thumbs up: When I read thru the thread, for a second there I thought I was reading Tin defending the Bush. Must have been just a passing notion. :lol:
> 
> I think most know that the Bush will never have 100% snowmaking coverage cause of this little place called Castlerock. I've been there and experienced all the bad thaw/rain/freeze events and the feedback I hear is that the Bush does a great job recovering. Personally, I'm always amazed. What the Bush lacks in snowmaking is more than made up with an amazing grooming crew. Under normal conditions they till/push/carve cord on 60 trails every night. If snow surface is important to you than the grooming crews at all ski hills should be your idols. :wink: Just my personal opinion, everyone has a right to one.




Meh.  There's no reason to believe that SB has a uniquely awesome groomer crew.  They work hard as dogs at every mountain.  All the mountain ops guys do.  

Thankfully, they will retain a great mix of manmade and natural trails.  You and I both know they could do better on the former and I think it's safe to assume that will be an area of renewed focus once the base area construction settles down in a year or two.

If you really love a place, you have to be honest about its strengths and faults.


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## speden (May 25, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Bob responded:
> 
> We tried hard to get lift on schedule for this summer but in this economy, it was impossible to finance - so it will have to wait for another year.  Many small improvements will be noticable, however - From additional glading to bag storage room, to improvements to snowmaking.



  Well that's a bummer, but understandable.

Hopefully Ragged will put whatever funds they have towards modernizing their snow making guns and improving their water supply.  It would be nice if they'd do some work on Showboat so that they could get it open sooner.

Not sure what they need a bag storage room for.  Seemed like the lodge has quite a few storage shelves already.


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## ski_resort_observer (May 25, 2010)

> Personally, I'm always amazed. What the Bush lacks in snowmaking is more than made up with an amazing grooming crew. Under normal conditions they till/push/carve cord on 60 trails every night. If snow surface is important to you than the *grooming crews at all ski hills* should be your idols.  Just my personal opinion, everyone has a right to one.






> Meh. There's no reason to believe that SB has a *uniquely* awesome groomer crew. They work hard as dogs at every mountain. All the mountain ops guys do.



It's not nice to put words in I didn't say to make your point. Where did I say uniquely? I even gave a shout out to all grooming crews cause I know they all work hard for their money. 

.


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## deadheadskier (May 25, 2010)

speden said:


> Well that's a bummer, but understandable.
> 
> Hopefully Ragged will put whatever funds they have towards modernizing their snow making guns and improving their water supply.  It would be nice if they'd do some work on Showboat so that they could get it open sooner.
> 
> Not sure what they need a bag storage room for.  Seemed like the lodge has quite a few storage shelves already.



Aggreed on all points except the bags.  I definitely would remove all the shelves and have a free storage room and mandate its use.  On busy days, especially race days, kids would tend to 'claim tables' with their stuff and just leave it on the tables all day. Made for a downright mess at times.  This problem will only get worse as the mountain becomes more popular.

The bones of that lodge are actually pretty nice.  If they got rid of the lockers and updated the furniture it would be much more attractive and enable them to attract a higher end wedding clientele in the off season.   Sprucing it up to it's full potential would probably also help in attracting a higher end clientele for their desired real estate development as well.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 25, 2010)

ski_resort_observer said:


> It's not nice to put words in I didn't say to make your point. Where did I say uniquely? I even gave a shout out to all grooming crews cause I know they all work hard for their money.
> 
> .



They do.  But then why bring up the SB groomer crew when you are posting about snowmaking?  The obvious implication is that we should gloss over any shortcomings with the snowmaking system b/c it's compensated for by the grooming.  In fact, it wasn't an implication so much as a statement.  You said:



> What the Bush lacks in snowmaking is more than made up with an amazing grooming crew.


If all grooming crews are equal, then what is the possible rationale for this comment?  Sure - you did not use the exact words "uniquely awesome", but the point you were making was clear enough.  You think that SB's shortcomings in snowmaking are compensated for by having an amazing grooming crew.  I'm sure the employees of every mountain believe that about their colleagues despite the fact that there is zero objective evidence to support your claim.  No need to be disingenuous about it.


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## Mapnut (May 25, 2010)

Goodness me, what a cranky forum!


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## catskillman (May 25, 2010)

dmc said:


> I can't wait to try this out!!!



Have you noticed that the pole in the front right hand corner is tilted?? !!!

 Very obvious when you are standing in front of it...


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## mikestaple (May 25, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> Aggreed on all points except the bags.  I definitely would remove all the shelves and have a free storage room and mandate its use.  On busy days, especially race days, kids would tend to 'claim tables' with their stuff and just leave it on the tables all day. Made for a downright mess at times.  This problem will only get worse as the mountain becomes more popular.
> 
> The bones of that lodge are actually pretty nice.  If they got rid of the lockers and updated the furniture it would be much more attractive and enable them to attract a higher end wedding clientele in the off season.   Sprucing it up to it's full potential would probably also help in attracting a higher end clientele for their desired real estate development as well.



I love the lodge - I just make it a point to get there at the very opening to grab the shelf space and yes my kids do hog a table.  Which is a royal pain to everyone else.  The fireplace is so good, if they could do something to move beyond the lunch room chairs etc it would be fantastic.  I would definitely use a free storage room (or even a $5 dollar all day basket).  Just get those snow guns more mobile and get Exhibition open sooner and my day trip destination is set.


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## dmc (May 25, 2010)

catskillman said:


> Have you noticed that the pole in the front right hand corner is tilted?? !!!
> 
> Very obvious when you are standing in front of it...



I really haven't paid much attention to it.. But I guess it does look crooked...


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## win (May 31, 2010)

AdironRider said:


> I still think Sugarbush needs to stop real estate development and start focusing on the on mountain experience, they are now at the back of the pack in terms of major resorts in VT, and are only falling further behind.
> 
> That being said, Gore's new development could potentially have the largest impact of all, I think they still need a lift to downtown North Creek to reach the top. That and way more snowmaking capacity.



WTF are you talking about.  You must either have not been here or don't know what you are talking about!


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## win (May 31, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd be interested in hearing input from win as to Sugarbush's skier visits over his ownership period.  Numbers mean more than opinions.
> 
> One of the biggest complaints at Killington is their lack of adequate skier services facilities for lessons, rentals, etc.  They blow a ton of snow.
> 
> Smuggs has horid snowmaking, yet the place is mobbed.  Why?  Excellent skier service facilities and slopeside lodging.   That example alone would show what families care about.



If we are going forward with this summer's improvements, it is because we are pleased with our results.  That's the bottom line! Our guests are voting!


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## BushMogulMaster (Jun 1, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> If all grooming crews are equal, then what is the possible rationale for this comment?



All grooming crews are not equal.  It's art as much as science.  Not everyone is cut out for the gig, and not all resorts "get it."




While everyone whines about Sugarbush not investing in mountain ops, let's not forget that at least two main snowmaking pipelines are being replaced this year (one at LP, one at ME) [see http://forums.skimrv.com/about2398.html].  That will certainly make a difference.  I'm not as familiar with the system at LP as I am at ME, so I can't speak so much for the difference there.  But I can tell you that at ME, the difference will be noticeable in the moments we need it most.  It doesn't necessarily mean that more snow will be made, but it means that it can be made where and when it's needed.  Last year was a challenge, but I think it turned out pretty darn good nonetheless.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> While everyone whines about Sugarbush not investing in mountain ops, let's not forget that at least two main snowmaking pipelines are being replaced this year (one at LP, one at ME) [see http://forums.skimrv.com/about2398.html]. That will certainly make a difference. I'm not as familiar with the system at LP as I am at ME, so I can't speak so much for the difference there. But I can tell you that at ME, the difference will be noticeable in the moments we need it most. It doesn't necessarily mean that more snow will be made, but it means that it can be made where and when it's needed. Last year was a challenge, but I think it turned out pretty darn good nonetheless.


 
Good to hear that the line from Van Loon Pumphouse to the base will see some TLC. It will be good to see the system will be back up to normal...now we need the snow to go with it and colder temps!  

The skiing at ME was good, but the runs that usually have very deep bases from snowmaking (FIS and Exterminator for example) just did not have the same amount of snow. 

Then again, we can talk about that "terrible" trail known as Cliffs.


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## Tin Woodsman (Jun 1, 2010)

BushMogulMaster said:


> All grooming crews are not equal.  It's art as much as science.  Not everyone is cut out for the gig, and not all resorts "get it."


Without getting into any specifics re: SB, which you probably can't talk about in a public forum, what facets go into a good grooming crew and what constitutes "getting it" from a mgmt perspective?  As an educational experience, it could be helpful to understand the differences.




> While everyone whines about Sugarbush not investing in mountain ops,


Really just one guy, and he was only trolling, so that doesn't even count.



> let's not forget that at least two main snowmaking pipelines are being replaced this year (one at LP, one at ME) [see http://forums.skimrv.com/about2398.html].  That will certainly make a difference.  I'm not as familiar with the system at LP as I am at ME, so I can't speak so much for the difference there.  But I can tell you that at ME, the difference will be noticeable in the moments we need it most.  It doesn't necessarily mean that more snow will be made, but it means that it can be made where and when it's needed.  Last year was a challenge, but I think it turned out pretty darn good nonetheless.


Can this be interpreted to mean that the old pipe was so sensitive/delicate that mtn ops arms were tied under many circumstances during preferred snowmaking windows?

FWIW, I don't understand why they'd get the same diameter pipe, if only to leave the door open for great capacity in the next 25 years w/o having to invest anew.  Perhaps going to a greater diameter on the pipe would require new equipment connected to that pipe (e.g. fittings, pumps, what have you)?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Can this be interpreted to mean that the old pipe was so sensitive/delicate that mtn ops arms were tied under many circumstances during preferred snowmaking windows?


 
IIRC last season they lost a lot of time at LP due to the blow outs and had to run the system at less pressure because of the breaking lines.  As for Mount Ellen, same thing.  They lost a lot of time and were not able to refill the pond at Inverness as fast.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jun 1, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> Good to hear that the line from Van Loon Pumphouse to the base will see some TLC. It will be good to see the system will be back up to normal...now we need the snow to go with it and colder temps!
> 
> The skiing at ME was good, but the runs that usually have very deep bases from snowmaking (FIS and Exterminator for example) just did not have the same amount of snow.
> 
> Then again, we can talk about that "terrible" trail known as Cliffs.



We haven't made snow on Exterminator in a couple of seasons.  It skis much better natural, hands down.

Cliffs was also superior with all natural snow.  With a shorter season at Ellen, I'm happier to see snow quality over depth.  Obviously, in a really bad snow year, snowmaking is the only real solution.  But whenever possible, those trails are a world better with natural snow.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2010)

I guess I was surprised that there was no SM on Exterminator because in the past they would put a layer down, ala FIS, and let it go.  Hell, I recall them winching it during the 2002-2003 season on a couple occasions.  Since ME is not open very long, I understand why there is not as much SM on it.  

Has there been ANY snowmaking or race training on Lower Brambles?  It is a shame that they widened it only to not use it for racing.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jun 1, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I guess I was surprised that there was no SM on Exterminator because in the past they would put a layer down, ala FIS, and let it go.  Hell, I recall them winching it during the 2002-2003 season on a couple occasions.  Since ME is not open very long, I understand why there is not as much SM on it.



The decision not to make snow on Exterm isn't just about saving money, etc.  It's about skiing quality.  The trail is significantly better without snowmaking.  And grooming it may be the worst thing we could do to that particular trail.  I have personally heard great reviews from many people on the improvement since we haven't been making snow or grooming it.  Even folks that don't like moguls have to admit that the snow quality is much better.  No matter how well you make snow, it will always be inferior to natural snow (albeit more durable).



> Has there been ANY snowmaking or race training on Lower Brambles?  It is a shame that they widened it only to not use it for racing.



This has been a discussion point.  We'll see what this season brings.


But we've hijacked your thread enough.  Let's move back to discussion of important resort improvements...


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## BushMogulMaster (Jun 1, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Without getting into any specifics re: SB, which you probably can't talk about in a public forum, what facets go into a good grooming crew and what constitutes "getting it" from a mgmt perspective?  As an educational experience, it could be helpful to understand the differences.



It can't be boiled down to a paragraph on a forum.  If it was that simple, there would be no need for a departmental manager to run the operation!

It's a very complex thing, really.  From a management perspective, you have to have someone who not only can manage people, but who also understands snow science, and how grooming/snowmaking affect the snow crystals.  The grooming manager has to be in tune with the weather patterns, the up-to-the-minute snow conditions, etc.  He has to know exactly what to groom and when, and it's certainly not arbitrary... lots and lots of factors can impact what, how, when, and why something is added to, or removed from the grooming list.

With regard to what makes a good grooming crew, it takes a variety of strengths that combine to make a great chemistry.  One of the most important pieces to this puzzle is that some groomers really have to be skiers as well.  There are (more than you think, probably) ski areas where none of the groomers ski.  In order to understand how the daily work relates to the skiing experience, some of the operators have to have lots of first-hand experience.  Beyond that, it's important to be careful who you hire as operators.  Everyone wants to run cats.  It's like the ultimate ski bum gig.  But it's also a dangerous, and supremely important job.  What we do doesn't only effect the skiing quality, but it is also highly aesthetic.  If someone drives up to the mountain and sees wavy, ugly corduroy, or lots of track marks, or deep coffins, or other operator errors, that potential customer will form his initial opinion based on what he sees.  On the other hand, good looking corduroy doesn't automatically equal good skiing, and vice versa.  So you need to hire operators who are capable, intelligent, and willing to learn, and who actually care about the product they are making.

And back to management, it really makes a huge difference when the managers really cares about the product, and the guys making the product.  As night crew workers, it's easy to be forgotten.  If the manager takes care of his operators, and really pays attention to their input, all is well.  If the operators are ignored and forgotten, then they'll quickly (and intentionally) forget how to make straight lines and clean up mistakes, and the product will suffer, and employee morale will drop quite quickly.  But that's really true of nearly any department in any business, I just wanted to relate it to grooming.


Anyways, like I said, it's a big topic with lots of interesting facets.  The above was just a little stream-of-consciousness peek at what goes on.  Snow science can be complex, and relating it to the effects of snowmaking and grooming is not always easy.




> Can this be interpreted to mean that the old pipe was so sensitive/delicate that mtn ops arms were tied under many circumstances during preferred snowmaking windows?



It can be interpreted to mean that charging the system to, and running at, full pressure/volume with aging, weak pipelines = difficult snowmaking.  I'm intentionally not alluding to any specifics here, just that it makes things more difficult.  Many ski areas deal with this every season.  Fortunately, Win is making the commitment to take care of it now, instead of just putting a band-aid on it.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 1, 2010)

I hear you on Exterminator. It did ski well...albeit thin at times...

Any new groomers for either side of SB this season?  Great to see that the winchcat was back in action for ME.  

And moi highjacking my own thread?


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## BushMogulMaster (Jun 1, 2010)

thetrailboss said:


> I hear you on Exterminator. It did ski well...albeit thin at times...
> 
> Any new groomers for either side of SB this season?  Great to see that the winchcat was back in action for ME.
> 
> And moi highjacking my own thread?



I think there's one new machine in the works.  Regarding the winch at Ellen, yeah... the machine itself is fine now.  One big improvement for next season (at least on the ops side) is that they'll be greatly improving our ability to put on/take off the winch (it takes a big gantry, flat and properly aligned).  That will give us the ability to use that machine (BR-350) in the park, and as a freegroomer without the extra baggage.  The winch adds a LOT of weight, and thus a lot more load and wear on the cat.  By being able to remove it when we're not winching, and put it on when we ARE winching, we'll be much more efficient and effective, and hopefully extend life the of the solid frame (those BRs are renowned for frame cracks...).


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