# Belleayre and NYS Budget Cuts



## thinnmann (Sep 8, 2008)

Usually by this date we have purchased season passes and put kids into the racing program at Belleayre.  I have been checking the Belleayre web site, where for the past month or so it has said they are working on pricing and programs for the coming season, please check back.  There has been some controversy surrounding the proposed Belleayre Resort, and more from the unfair competition alleged against Belleayre by Hunter and Wyndham.

I received this email from the Belleayre Mountain Racing Association, the youth program my kids participate in.  It says to pass it on, so:

PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS EMAIL
BELOW ARE 2 LETTERS FROM COACH RALPH AND ROSINA, A SKI PATROLLER @BELLEAYRE
PLEASE READ AND PASS ON

Hi All

Please take this seriously. Belleayre and our region need your support. NYS budget cuts are proposing a major funding shortfall for Belleayre Mt for the 08/09 season. The 08 Fall Festival for Columbus weekend has already been cancelled. The proposal for the winter is somewhere between operating one or two lifts with NO RACING, NO SKIWEE, NO ALPINE programs TO A COMPLETE SHUT DOWN OF BELLEAYRE FOR THE WINTER. Everyone associated with this community needs to support the continued operation of Belleayre. Please step forward and make your voice heard in favor of Belleayre Mt. 

What can you do? Email or write DEC - www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html
Email or write the Governor- www.ny.gov/governor/index.html 

Thank You,

Ralph Combe Jr.
_...address edit.._

Dear Belleayre Ski Patrollers:
DEC has dealt Belleayre Ski Center a devastating budget.  To this end the following has been decided:
The Octoberfest has been cancelled
Nursery will be not open
No skiwee, alpine development, or racing programs
Full time Patrol positions cut.
Limited snow making
Possible operation of only the Superchief.

What can you do?
Email or write DEC - www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html
Email or write the Governor- www.ny.gov/governor/index.html

They need to hear from all of us.  Do you know what this will do to Delaware and Ulster County economically?  The Governor vetoed the proposed legislation to establish a Blue Ribbon Commission to look into public recreation (proposed by the lobbying of Green County - Hunter and Windham ).  However, the same was accomplished by the budget cuts.  They have killed Belleayre Ski Center , putting us back into the 70's and 80's.  You may think I am being dramatic, but folks, if we don't do something about this, it is over.  Send this to your friends and make this effort to contact the DEC and Governor mushroom.  They need to hear from us so that they can understand the devastation this will cause.
 Rosina​


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## dmc (Sep 8, 2008)

I got an idea... How about stop giving away tickets and run the place like private place has to run..???  Stop making snow at the end of the season ...???  Slow expansion until they can afford it??? Stop giving away beer if can't be afforded...?? 
they already can use volunteer employess for no cost because they are exempt from a pile of labor laws...... 
they already don't have to worry about insurance like private ares do...  
they already have exemption from administrative costs... 
They already dont have to pay taxes... 
I could go on...

So where is this $$ going...???


So - the first person spells Belleayre worse then I do,...

The second person reeks of whining to me...  
"Daddy's(NYS) isn't paying my allowance anymore...  I gotta live in the real world"
WAAAAH!!!!! WAAAAH!

Yeah...  It's a tough business..
As a resident of the Catskills and a person they beg  to take action - I hope Belleayre succeeds - I seriously do.... But Tony's gotta deal with reality....  The state has to level the playing field for private ski areas.....   Unfair advantage is.... Well.... Unfair...  

And as a NYS tax payer... And I pay a ton...
I'm starting to think my hard earned $$ is being mismanaged even hearing about this...
if you pay taxes... You should be able to ask for the government to be fair...  Hunter, Windham and Plattekill have every right to complain... they pay taxes...  It's one thing to have to compete with other private ski areas... But to have to compete with a business thats being subsidized by the government...  Well.. Thats no fair to the very people that fund it...  

Sorry for the rant...  Good beer in Charlotte NC...

Hunter haters can all step in line now...


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 8, 2008)

Letters written, will be mailed tomorrow.  That would suck to lose a great mountain and the early and late season player for the area.


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## dmc (Sep 8, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Letters written, will be mailed tomorrow.  That would suck to lose a great mountain and the early and late season player for the area.



Belleayre is NOT going anywhere... Relax... Send your kids to mountain creek... 

 It's not like NJ has to foot the bill for mismanagement that causes them to have to close Skiwi...   that be my tax $$ wasted...


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 8, 2008)

dmc said:


> Belleayre is NOT going anywhere... Relax... Send your kids to mountain creek...
> 
> It's not like NJ has to foot the bill for mismanagement that causes them to have to close Skiwi...   that be my tax $$ wasted...



Mountain creek sux, my home mountain is Hidden Valley, it already sux that I have to drive 15 minutes to HV versus 10 minutes to MC.:smile:

Of course, if Belleayre isn't worth the drive and is not open early and late season that's 6 to 10 less trips to NY for me as Belleayre is the closest Catskill mountain.  Which means not spending my money in your state and region and not paying Thruway tolls, gas and sales taxes in NY.


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## dmc (Sep 8, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Mountain creek sux, my home mountain is Hidden Valley, it already sux that I have to drive 15 minutes to HV versus 10 minutes to MC.:smile:



So...  Tell your state to buy the mountain and use your tax dollars to make HV better...

Simple....


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## AdironRider (Sep 8, 2008)

Meh. I honestly could care less about losing Belleyare but it sucks they pissed millions of tax dollars down the tubes. Blowing snow last spring was retarded.


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 8, 2008)

dmc said:


> So...  Tell your state to buy the mountain and use your tax dollars to make HV better...
> 
> Simple....



My state can barely keep it's state parks and forests open.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

Sucks..about Belleayre..I'll believe it when I see it happen..Hunter used to be open into late April and even early May in 1992.  Now Belleayre is typically open a week or two later than Hunter.  It's never that crowded..at least when I've been there...the new high speed quad..although on the lower side of the mountain is sa weet..leaving the other areas emptier..the deals are also great.  Free skiing on your BDAY, free vouchers with early and late season purchases..rainchecks..and friendly employees.  If this happens at Belleayre..Hunter and Windham are going to be mobbed..I kind of liked the fact that the skiing at Belleayre was subsidized by the taxpayers of NY State..taxes are freaking high in NY so at least some of it was put to good use..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Meh. I honestly could care less about losing Belleyare but it sucks they pissed millions of tax dollars down the tubes. Blowing snow last spring was retarded.



I'm not a big fan of spring snowmaking because new manmade snow combined with warm temperatures can make for manky gluey snow..while older manmade is icier and faster..


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## Geoff (Sep 9, 2008)

The obvious solution is for the state to lease the ski area to a private operator.  There's no reason in the world why a properly managed ski area can't show a modest profit most years.   ...particularly if you don't have a pile of debt run up to either buy the resort in the first place or update the infrastructure.


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## hardline (Sep 9, 2008)

i really want to comment on this but i have had a few to many beers and i need to put some thought in to this. i have a feeling this going to be a pretty ugly thread.


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## dmc (Sep 9, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> If this happens at Belleayre..Hunter and Windham are going to be mobbed..I kind of liked the fact that the skiing at Belleayre was subsidized by the taxpayers of NY State..taxes are freaking high in NY so at least some of it was put to good use..



Aint gonna happen...

I'd personally rather have my tax $ go to something thats not mismanaged...


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## dmc (Sep 9, 2008)

Geoff said:


> The obvious solution is for the state to lease the ski area to a private operator.  There's no reason in the world why a properly managed ski area can't show a modest profit most years.   ...particularly if you don't have a pile of debt run up to either buy the resort in the first place or update the infrastructure.




thank you...


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## skidbump (Sep 9, 2008)

So,if this is true nys is going to devastate the region.
 Limited opening will have a trickle down actually a gusher effect on economy
 Seasonal home  rentals will go first.Whole area on 28 from Kingston up will lose business and closer you get to ski area the worse it will be.There must be 100  full time and 200 to 300 part time seasonal employees at ski area all who pay taxes.Local business's all employ local people who pay taxes...this is not good for anyone... Closing or limiting area will kill the 28 corridor.

As far as the snow making went i believe it was for bare spots not base and with out aux generators it was pretty cheap to do.

At this time the only expansion has been a maint garage.No new trials in over 3 or 4 yrs no trail maint other than cutting grass..Tight glades/woods where never cleaned out from storm 3 seasons ago. 

Free beer is not paid for by state.


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## thinnmann (Sep 9, 2008)

*More info*

_Daily Freeman _article right here -:

and via email from Belleayre Mtn. Racing Association, this:

Coalition to Save Belleayre

Press Release  9/8/2008

For Immediate Release
Contact:
Joe Kelly

Coalition to Save Belleayre 

Belleayre Supporters Decry 
Cancellation of October Festival 


            Highmount, NY  --  September 8, 2008  --  Supporters of Belleayre Mountain Ski Center reacted with outrage this week when they learned the extent of cutbacks to the ski center's operating budget for the coming season.  Saying that these cuts "will destroy what's left of the Central Catskills' economy," Joe Kelly, chairman of the Coalition to Save Belleayre, called for a summit meeting of elected and appointed officials who represent the area and business leaders whose constituents will suffer if the budget cuts are allowed to stand as planned.  Kelly said, "the Coalition has argued for more than 25 years that New York State has a special economic obligation to this area because of the extensive holding of forest preserve and watershed lands by the State and City of New York.  We are here to see that this obligation is met."

            According to Kelly, the ski center's October Festival, which has been a money-maker for the facility for most of its 20 plus years of operation, is the first casualty of potentially draconian cuts that would cripple the ski center.  "This event brings as many as 16,000 people to our community in one single weekend," said Kelly.  "It has made Columbus Day the biggest weekend of the year and filled hotel rooms from Kingston to Oneonta.  Cutting this out will make our hotels and restaurants bleed profusely, to say nothing of the stores, gas stations and others who benefit."  

            Kelly went on to add that he - and all Belleayre Mt. supporters - understand the need for cuts and the fact that everyone in the state has to share in the pain of the current economy.  "But this is going to be way more than our fair share," said an angry Kelly.  "The state is already nearly halfway through its fiscal year so agencies that already spent money, like New York State camp grounds preparing to close for the year, get no budget cut impact.  In the meantime, we're facing a huge budget cut, the extent of which is only now becoming apparent," Kelly added.  "In fact, these are 'in-and-out' revenues that don't actually save anything, and actually cost the state lost ticket and sales tax revenue."

            "Sources tell us that in addition to the cutting of the festival, that the ski season could be a month or more shorter than it was last year, that the ski center could operate at less than its full capacity even during the height of the season and that staff people will lose their jobs," said Kelly.  "We will never be able to recoup this loss - even if they bring us back to full operation next year.  We've worked too hard for the last three decades to sit back silently and watch this happen."

            Kelly went on to point out that not only do all of the local businesses who depend on Belleayre Mt. suffer - many of them may be forced out of business permanently - but so too do the counties who depend on the sales tax and bed tax generated by these visitors.  "The economic blow to Ulster and Delaware counties cannot be over estimated," said Kelly.  "These counties are already suffering from severe economic setbacks and these cutbacks at Belleayre will just push us over the edge."  Kelly cited a survey done of businesses in the region in 2000 and noted that since that time nearly 20% of the respondent businesses were closed because of a lingering depression in the area.  "Adding this to that is just a blow we can not and will not accept."

            Noting that the cancellation of the annual October Festival came in the same week that Governor Patterson vetoed a blue ribbon commission to study the fairness of Belleayre's operation, Kelly said that some people in his organization believe the budget cuts are related to the lobbying Greene County has done to curtail Belleayre's operation.  "We certainly hope that this is not the case.  But it makes no sense to cancel one of your biggest money-making events in a single year," said Kelly.  "And once you are open and operating, it makes absolutely no sense to only operate part of your capital investment," he added.  "I don't know if people in state government are caving to pressure from Greene County to hold Belleayre Mt. back, but we certainly intend to look at that possibility."  

            Kelly said his group, the Coalition to Save Belleayre, has called an emergency meeting to review the budget issues and develop a strategy for addressing them.  "We had busses in Albany in March and we might need to get them up there again in October," said Kelly.  At this point, we need to talk with others in the region and figure out a plan of attack.  "But this I can say for sure.  We've been fighting for this ski center for more than a quarter of a century and except in 1984 when Mario Cuomo tried to close it, this is as bad as it gets.  We will not sit back quietly and let the State and the DEC make up their budget crisis on our backs."​


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## deadheadskier (Sep 9, 2008)

Geoff said:


> The obvious solution is for the state to lease the ski area to a private operator.  There's no reason in the world why a properly managed ski area can't show a modest profit most years.   ...particularly if you don't have a pile of debt run up to either buy the resort in the first place or update the infrastructure.



They should lease it to the Muellers, seemed to work for Sunapee


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 9, 2008)

dmc said:


> thank you...



While I understand your calls for an even playing field, you spend so much time talking about how Hunter and Belleayre are two completely different ski experiences attracting different kinds of people (I agree), then claim that Belleayre has seriously cut into Hunter's market share.  If prices were exactly the same, do you think people who were skiing/riding at Belleayre would suddenly become Hunter regulars and vice versa?  

You can't have it both ways.  At the end of the day, will people will go where it's cheaper or where they like the terrain/vibe?


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## Richard Ellis (Sep 9, 2008)

*Plan to Crush Belleayre*

The Governor's intentions are revealed by the DEC's decision to cancel the Belleayre October Fall Festival. The weekend event does not cost the State or Belleayre any money.  It makes money for Belleayre as well as local businesses. Canceling it reduces the programs Belleayre can offer even if State support for Belleayre is not cut. Suspiciously cuts to ski programs and staff began to leak out a day after the Governor vetoed the Hunter, Wyndham, Belleayre study. No announcement by the DEC or the Governor has been made about these cuts even though they have they have been in the works since the beginning of August. I say this because every year I receive a letter from Belleayre by then outlining programs for the new season.  This year there was no letter and when I called I was told pricing had not been received from Albany.  This has never happened before.  Perhaps Governor Paterson is hoping no one will notice his efforts to crush Belleayre until the damage is irreversible.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

skidbump said:


> So,if this is true nys is going to devastate the region.
> Limited opening will have a trickle down actually a gusher effect on economy
> Seasonal home  rentals will go first.Whole area on 28 from Kingston up will lose business and closer you get to ski area the worse it will be.There must be 100  full time and 200 to 300 part time seasonal employees at ski area all who pay taxes.Local business's all employ local people who pay taxes...this is not good for anyone... Closing or limiting area will kill the 28 corridor.
> 
> ...




For sure..the 28 corridor is already incredibly depressed.  Phoenicia is a nice little town but look at Fleishmans..that town is a hole...The Deleware court motel, a mini-mart and liquor store is all there is..What happened to the proposed Belleayre resort???  The poverty I've seen in the Catskills is way worse than down here in PA..because at least down here..there are lots of low-wage jobs..up there..it seems like people are fighting to get a job at a gas station..


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## thinnmann (Sep 9, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> The Governor's intentions are revealed by the DEC's decision to cancel the Belleayre October Fall Festival. .......... Perhaps Governor Paterson is hoping no one will notice his efforts to crush Belleayre until the damage is irreversible.





GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> For sure..the 28 corridor is already incredibly depressed.  Phoenicia is a nice little town but look at Fleishmans..that town is a hole...The Deleware court motel, a mini-mart and liquor store is all there is..What happened to the proposed Belleayre resort???  .........



Don't forget Pine Hill and Margaretville.  And there are a couple more properties in Fleishmans, like the new tex-mex place and other little motels.

My conspiracy theory thinking is leading me to believe that this is _all_ related to the Belleayre Resort: If they can squelch Belleayre for one season and really squeeze the economic balls of the area, then the big politically-connected deal with Glitter and company can be touted as the savior of Belleayre and the entire region...


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## Richard Ellis (Sep 9, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> If they can squelch Belleayre for one season and really squeeze the economic balls of the area, then the big politically-connected deal with Glitter and company can be touted as the savior of Belleayre and the entire region...



Of course this is a scorched Earth policy.  If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit.  The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.

There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre.  Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital.  He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.

Governor Paterson is intent on killing Belleayre, at least for this season.  Time will tell us why, hopefully he can be stopped before then.

I haven't told my nine year old daughter she may not have a ski team this year.  I have no idea how to have that conversation...


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## SkiDork (Sep 9, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> Of course this is a scorched Earth policy.  If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit.  The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.
> 
> There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre.  Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital.  He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.
> 
> ...



How come your location is Deer Valley UT?


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 9, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> Of course this is a scorched Earth policy.  If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit.  The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.
> 
> There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre.  Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital.  He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.
> 
> ...



He could have friends in Hunter and Windham's counties and he was afraid that the commission would have showed a negligible impact on Hunter and Windham so he decided to veto it and just shut Belleayre down himself.


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## Richard Ellis (Sep 9, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> How come your location is Deer Valley UT?



I am in Scarsdale, NY.  When setting up my account I thought I was asked where the picture was taken, not where I am.  Let me go sort it out.


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## WJenness (Sep 9, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> Of course this is a scorched Earth policy.  If this was about saving money the Belleayre Fall October Festival would not have been cancelled as it turns a good profit.  The extent of Governor Patterson's planned budget cuts would not have been held secret for months if Albany engaged in a serious debate on how to allocate the State budget.
> 
> There is something more going on, particularly since Governor David Paterson last week vetoed the bill establishing a commission to examine the economic impacts of Belleayre.  Since that bill passed unanimously in the State Senate and 134 to 2 in the Assembly, Paterson's veto is going to cost him some political capital.  He must have a very good (nefarious) reason for wanting to kill it.
> 
> ...




Can the bill be overridden by the legislature like federal bills can? Seems like it would be an easy override with that voting record.

-w


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## SkiDork (Sep 9, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> I am in Scarsdale, NY.  When setting up my account I thought I was asked where the picture was taken, not where I am.  Let me go sort it out.



oh, OK.  I get it now.  Cool.

Hey. do you happen to know a family that skis at Belleayre last name Gibson?  Oldest son is named Max?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Don't forget Pine Hill and Margaretville.  And there are a couple more properties in Fleishmans, like the new tex-mex place and other little motels.
> 
> My conspiracy theory thinking is leading me to believe that this is _all_ related to the Belleayre Resort: If they can squelch Belleayre for one season and really squeeze the economic balls of the area, then the big politically-connected deal with Glitter and company can be touted as the savior of Belleayre and the entire region...



Are you for or against the Belleayre resort???  I'm for it because then there will finally be decent lodging..slopeside at that....it will provide lots of jobs...and annexing Belleayre with Highmount would be sweet...a high speed quad to replace the Tomahawk lift would be awesome..


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## Richard Ellis (Sep 9, 2008)

WJenness said:


> Can the bill be overridden by the legislature like federal bills can? Seems like it would be an easy override with that voting record.
> -w



I don't know.  The study would take more than a year to complete anyway.  It is the budget discretion and control of DEC that Governor Paterson has that concerns me.  He can kill ten years of momentum in one season if he is so inclined.



SkiDork said:


> Hey. do you happen to know a family that skis at Belleayre last name Gibson?  Oldest son is named Max?



Let me think about that one.  There are two boys named Max that ski at Belleayre.  Let me ask my daughter.



ERJ-145CA said:


> He could have friends in Hunter and Windham's counties and he was afraid that the commission would have showed a negligible impact on Hunter and Windham so he decided to veto it and just shut Belleayre down himself.



My view is Hunter and Windham are utilized to capacity as it is.  They pack so many busses in I can't imagine they could handle any more business.  I always thought their crying was to obtain some State tax breaks, not kill Belleayre.  Skiing is a herd sport, your friends go so you go.  Having more ski areas open increases business for everyone.  It is not a zero sum situation.  I think they know that.  But, studies are what ifs.  They can easily be designed to show whatever you want.

If Belleayre does not have the programs this year, we are NOT going to ski in the Catskills.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> If Belleayre does not have the programs this year, we are NOT going to ski in the Catskills.



Then where are you going to ski???


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## thinnmann (Sep 9, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Are you for or against the Belleayre resort???  I'm for it because then there will finally be decent lodging..slopeside at that....it will provide lots of jobs...and annexing Belleayre with Highmount would be sweet...a high speed quad to replace the Tomahawk lift would be awesome..



I am against the resort.  Save the mountain.  It isn't just about winter - given the choice between a trip hiking and camping in wilderness vs. a trip to a resort, I am going to choose the hiking and camping any day.  The strength of the Catskills is wilderness, not resorts.  And it will totally change the Belleayre local old-school family hill vibe, which I love.  Most of the the resort jobs would be low-wage jobs, while all the management will be hired from out of town and friends of Crossroad Ventures.  Plus, if they follow the ski industry standard, many of the service workers will be hired from eastern Europe.  Belleayre had planned a new high speed lift, but I believe it was not to be a replacement for Tomahawk, but an additional lift from the vicinity of Discovery Lodge to the top.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I am against the resort.  Save the mountain.  It isn't just about winter - given the choice between a trip hiking and camping in wilderness vs. a trip to a resort, I am going to choose the hiking and camping any day.  The strength of the Catskills is wilderness, not resorts.  And it will totally change the Belleayre local old-school family hill vibe, which I love.  Most of the the resort jobs would be low-wage jobs, while all the management will be hired from out of town and friends of Crossroad Ventures.  Plus, if they follow the ski industry standard, many of the service workers will be hired from eastern Europe.  Belleayre had planned a new high speed lift, but I believe it was not to be a replacement for Tomahawk, but an additional lift from the vicinity of Discovery Lodge to the top.



My take is that you can stay at a nice resort with comfortable accomadations and go skiing/hiking during the day..


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## learn2turn (Sep 9, 2008)

Geoff said:


> The obvious solution is for the state to lease the ski area to a private operator.  There's no reason in the world why a properly managed ski area can't show a modest profit most years.   ...particularly if you don't have a pile of debt run up to either buy the resort in the first place or update the infrastructure.



That worked for Wachusett.  The state of Mass leased almost 30 years ago and the lessees (WMA) built it into one of the most successful small-to-mid-sized mountains in the country.

Hey, someone tell the Crowleys that Belleayre is on the block!!!


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## Geoff (Sep 9, 2008)

learn2turn said:


> That worked for Wachusett.  The state of Mass leased almost 30 years ago and the lessees (WMA) built it into one of the most successful small-to-mid-sized mountains in the country.
> 
> Hey, someone tell the Crowleys that Belleayre is on the block!!!



New Hampshire does the same thing with Sunapee.  The Muellers lease it from the state.  I believe the state still uses the money from the lease to make capital improvements to Cannon.  A year or so ago, some people in the NH legislature were trying to put Cannon up for lease but I think it got killed every time.


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## ta&idaho (Sep 9, 2008)

I personally have no problem with New York taxpayers subsidizing my ski habit, but I also understand the Belleayre criticism.  That place feels like what I imagine skiing in the Soviet Union must have been like.  I'm all for old school mountains (love Homewood on the West shore of Lake Tahoe, for example), but Belleayre is a little ridiculous.

Using state money to fund needed capital improvements is one thing, but it should be able to break even on day-to-day operations.


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## evantrentful (Sep 9, 2008)

I make a 90min trek from Orange County,NY to ski at bellearye almost weekly, it would be a real loss to see it killed off (whether it be literal or limited operations). Something seems so strange, for all the Naysayers about mismanagement and waste, Belleayre doesnt gun nearly half as much as Windham or Hunter throughout the season, mainly due to capcity im sure but this also points out that they arent pissing away my tax dollars on endless improvements to the facility, their lodges are reasonable, nothing like the lodge Windham had built. 

Its affordable and its friendly, Im a 22yearold skier i ride in the park and rip around on my twintips and probably have no reason to be at belleayre over the other two mountains, but theres something about Belleayre thats not so commercialized and busy. I grew up skiing on Whiteface and Belleayre in my opinion is the only thing in new york that comes close to its feel... on a mountain thats half its size


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## Trekchick (Sep 9, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Usually by this date we have purchased season passes and put kids into the racing program at Belleayre.  I have been checking the Belleayre web site, where for the past month or so it has said they are working on pricing and programs for the coming season, please check back.  There has been some controversy surrounding the proposed Belleayre Resort, and more from the unfair competition alleged against Belleayre by Hunter and Wyndham.
> 
> I received this email from the Belleayre Mountain Racing Association, the youth program my kids participate in.  It says to pass it on, so:
> 
> ...



Would you mind if I posted this on EpicSki, to help get the word out?


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## Richard Ellis (Sep 9, 2008)

Go for it.  That email was sent to me along with a note to pass it along to everyone who cares about Belleayre.

You may be interested in the Daily Freeman article here.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 9, 2008)

From the article..

Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to more than 175,000 skiers with visitors from all over the world


Why would the state mess with something so good..they should continue to operate Belleayre and then sell it..


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## thinnmann (Sep 9, 2008)

ta&idaho said:


> I personally have no problem with New York taxpayers subsidizing my ski habit, but I also understand the Belleayre criticism.  That place feels like what I imagine skiing in the Soviet Union must have been like.  I'm all for old school mountains (love Homewood on the West shore of Lake Tahoe, for example), but Belleayre is a little ridiculous.
> 
> Using state money to fund needed capital improvements is one thing, but it should be able to break even on day-to-day operations.



I am not sure that everyone is aware that the Catskill Park AND Belleayre Mountain was created by an amendment to the NY State constitution.  Belleayre is limited by the amendment, but it is also conversely _mandated_.  Legislators, _representing the taxpayers_, created Catskill Park AND Belleayre; as such, there should be a stewardship to continue to support the area in the spirit of the NY state constitution.

The taxpayers of NY are not subsidizing your ski habit, they are attracting you to the area so you spend your money there.  They are subsidizing their own economic viability.  If Belleayre and its programs go, an untold amount of the skiers who spend their money in that area are not switching to other Catskills hills.  Instead, they will suck up the extra drive time and head up to VT, Gore or Whiteface.

So far, some folks who have contributed to this thread have called Belleayre "retarded" and  "a little ridiculous".  _And I am not even talking about DMC...._  Heaping negativity during a difficult economy is what seems to me to be retarded and ridiculous.  The closing of any ski hill, regardless of the reasons, is bad for the sport, the industry, the local economy and the people who depend on it to feed their families.  Even if you don't care about others, you can realize selfishly that closing one place reduces your choices of where to ski, and reduces competition so prices elsewhere may rise.

The loss of Belleayre, or even any fraction of its operating potential, is a losing proposition for all skiers and boarders from NY, NJ, and PA.


----------



## thinnmann (Sep 9, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Would you mind if I posted this on EpicSki, to help get the word out?



Looks like others started the thread over there way earlier this morning.  Also looks like the posters at EpicSki understand how the closing of a ski mountain is a very bad thing....


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 10, 2008)

Except for over-the-top Hunter fanatics, I don't see how anyone could be happy with a reduction of services at any ski area.

Next thing you know, the state will target Gore and Whiteface!


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Except for over-the-top Hunter fanatics, I don't see how anyone could be happy with a reduction of services at any ski area.
> 
> Next thing you know, the state will target Gore and Whiteface!



Yo ComeBMPuddles..

I AM NOT HAPPY WITH THE REDUCTION OF SERVICES!!!!!  

I have friends living from Kingston to Flieshmans....  Nobody wants Bell to close... And it wont...

I am upset with the mismanagegment of my tax $$$..


----------



## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> From the article..
> 
> Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to more than 175,000 skiers with visitors from all over the world
> 
> ...



Because it's bleeding $$$$ in a bad economic times...
Blame out current president...

We've seen reduction in service at Hunter as well...


----------



## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

James Michaud said:


> While I understand your calls for an even playing field, you spend so much time talking about how Hunter and Belleayre are two completely different ski experiences attracting different kinds of people (I agree), then claim that Belleayre has seriously cut into Hunter's market share.  If prices were exactly the same, do you think people who were skiing/riding at Belleayre would suddenly become Hunter regulars and vice versa?
> 
> You can't have it both ways.  At the end of the day, will people will go where it's cheaper or where they like the terrain/vibe?




i don't want it both ways...  At the end of my day I want a level playing field for businesses to compete...

I believe that people that ski Belleayre regularly are not fans of Hunter for some reason.  Some just don't like the vibe.... Some just aren't good enough to enjoy the more expert terrain and blast Hunter to make themselves seem like better skiers.

But this aint gonna happen... 

I think it the prices were the same - Hunter would be a better place to go to...  Only becuase it offers more variety of Terrain... and separate beginner area...  Great lodging(not paid for with my tax $$).


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Because it's bleeding $$$$ in a bad economic times...
> Blame out current president...
> 
> We've seen reduction in service at Hunter as well...



When was the last time Hunter added a new lift?


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> When was the last time Hunter added a new lift?



Like 10 years ago...  They put the B chair in over the terrain park...
And moved the G chair....

 Hunter seems to do things linearly...   One project finishes....  Pay it off - move to the next...


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## Trekchick (Sep 10, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Looks like others started the thread over there way earlier this morning.  Also looks like the posters at EpicSki understand how the closing of a ski mountain is a very bad thing....



You will notice that I posted your post in that thread.
Thanks for the info.  Happy to spread anything that can help out.

As for the Hunter Fanatics, they seem to be few and far between.


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> As for the Hunter Fanatics, they seem to be few and far between.



i love Hunter...  Make no mistake...   That why I live there...  It's a wonderful place to live surrounded by a giant park...  I love it!!!

Don't think for one second I do not want Bell to fail...

Please believe me...  Thats not my intention...  

I am approaching this as a resident of the Catskills and a NYS tax payer...  

Let me ask you...
Would you be happy if your tax $$ was mismanaged?


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## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Don't think for one second I do not want Bell to fail...
> 
> Please believe me...  Thats not my intention...



I think you meant to say I do want Bell to fail?


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## skidbump (Sep 10, 2008)

The whole system is broken and belleayre is an easy target.No US/State/Local government agency operates as a business they operate as a municipality and at least the mountain brings in money unlike the rest of the state that just spends the money.If you want reform than it should be unilateral, not pick and chose.All should be scrutinized all should be cut.But really if it generates revenue"break even or not"why would you want to cut it.I too pay taxes and the amount that is spent on recreation state wide is not the issue and we all know it .The ski area does not have the same amenities as Hunter or Windham so it doesn't warrant the same price for a lift ticket .So really how do you want to level the playing field...
Not only would closing/limited opening cost me a ski area it Will cost me my instructors job

i have no issue with hunter or its people and if belleayre closes then i guess it will be the area i ski.If i can ski the whole mountain at 1 i would guess i could at other.

Pat


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> I think you meant to say I do want Bell to fail?



Incorrect sir...  Totally incorrect...


----------



## WJenness (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Incorrect sir...  Totally incorrect...



Your double negative above (Post #49) makes it seem like you do...

I get the vibe from your other posts, but you may want to edit it...

-w


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

skidbump said:


> TThe ski area does not have the same amenities as Hunter or Windham so it doesn't warrant the same price for a lift ticket .So really how do you want to level the playing field...



What amenities?


----------



## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> Your double negative above (Post #49) makes it seem like you do...
> 
> I get the vibe from your other posts, but you may want to edit it...
> 
> -w



Whatever...  i dont want Bell to fail...


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## skidbump (Sep 10, 2008)

No he's being straight up honest and he bears no grudge against area and has skied/drank at belleayre


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

skidbump said:


> No he's being straight up honest and he bears no grudge against area and has skied/drank at belleayre



I really don't....  i have more of a grudge against people that associate me with Hunter and automatiaclly make assumptions...


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## skidbump (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> What amenities?



Lifts,trails,lodge,parking,food,ect,ect


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> I think you meant to say I do want Bell to fail?



Please SkiDork..don't turn this into a flame war!!!!!  I think DMC wants to see Belleayre do well so Hunter isn't so crowded..


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## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Incorrect sir...  Totally incorrect...



I was referring to the double negative.  Go back and read your post again, you'll see what I mean.

I know that you DON'T want Bellair to fail.  But your double negative made it sound the opposite...  Just a minor nit.  I'm with you.  When I say I'm with you, I mean I'm WITH you...


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Please SkiDork..don't turn this into a flame war!!!!!  I think DMC wants to see Belleayre do well so Hunter isn't so crowded..



see my post above.  I knew what he meant, I was just referring to symantics (semantics?)


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> see my post above.  I knew what he meant, I was just referring to symantics (semantics?)



Well then start a new thread about semantics and keep this about Belleayre..


----------



## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Please SkiDork..don't turn this into a flame war!!!!!  I think DMC wants to see Belleayre do well so Hunter isn't so crowded..



DUDE!!! NO!!!
i want Bell to succeed because it the right thing for the economy where I live...


----------



## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well then start a new thread about semantics and keep this about Belleayre..




true - you've never hijacked a thread before....


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> true - you've never hijacked a thread before....



:-o:-o:-o I've skied Belleayre for 2+ days for each of the past 4 seasons..their terrain isn't that tough but it's fun..lots of interesting trails with cool fall lines..and they have a really nice deck..I assume after this season a company like Peaks will buy Belleayre and update it..and probably raise the prices..but Belleayre will be a tough sell if the local zoning doesn't allow a slopeside hotel/condos..to be built.


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## skidbump (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> I really don't....  i have more of a grudge against people that associate me with Hunter and automatiaclly make assumptions...



Truth be told vibe on weekends at both places is getting to be a little to much.I ski with some hunter people mid week at bell and all are good people.But they are 2 different areas and i believe on a weekend ,hunter attracts a sometimes over the top crowd.

Pat


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## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> :-o:-o:-o I've skied Belleayre for 2+ days for each of the past 4 seasons..their terrain isn't that tough but it's fun..lots of interesting trails with cool fall lines..and they have a really nice deck..I assume after this season a company like Peaks will buy Belleayre and update it..and probably raise the prices..but Belleayre will be a tough sell if the local zoning doesn't allow a slopeside hotel/condos..to be built.



Last time I was there was prolly about 10 years ago.  Funniest damn thing happened.  I went with abot 4 other guys from work.  We were taking a chair that has a midstation.  Well these guys were sort of herbs, so they weren't paying attention.  So when we were going over the midstation, we heard and felt a loud scraping noise.

Result?  1 broken pole and one lost ski.

Then one of the guys yells back to the liftie "Hey idiot, send my ski up to the top?"

My comment:  How to win friends and influence people...

We had a big laugh about that for the rest of the day. 

Nice place.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> Last time I was there was prolly about 10 years ago.  Funniest damn thing happened.  I went with abot 4 other guys from work.  We were taking a chair that has a midstation.  Well these guys were sort of herbs, so they weren't paying attention.  So when we were going over the midstation, we heard and felt a loud scraping noise.
> 
> Result?  1 broken pole and one lost ski.
> 
> ...



Belleayre has just as many gapers as the Poconos..which makes for a good view from the lifts.  The one dude who works the midstation at the Tomahawk quad is pretty cool..he always cranks oldies music and waves..The new Superchief high speed quad is great..the old non high speed took 12 minutes and this takes 5 minutes.  I like the terrain better in the middle of the mountain and lookers right but for a couple fast warm-up cruisers or after lunch runs..the Superchief is great..Dot Nebel is one of my favorite high speed runs..definitely a run you can hit 50-60mph on..and the last time I skied there with Kingslug..I got to practice gates..


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Truth be told vibe on weekends at both places is getting to be a little to much.I ski with some hunter people mid week at bell and all are good people.But they are 2 different areas and i believe on a weekend ,hunter attracts a sometimes over the top crowd.
> 
> Pat



The vibe isn't so bad at Hunter...  At least for me...


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## ed-drum (Sep 10, 2008)

Even if Belleayre doesn't close, it will make things really impossible to ski in the Catskills. I agree with DMC. He doesn't want things to happen to Belleayre either. Plattekill has a parking lot that is too small as it is. Windham and Hunter get too crowded as it is. So, even if it doesn't close people will go to the other three areas up here, get disgusted and go to other areas and it will be a disaster for everyone. No more programs for kids? Oh boy. I have friends who work at all of the areas around here and it is not going to be good for anyone. It is not the expansion of the Belleayre area itself that is being opposed by the locals, it's the golf course and condo building that is causing an uproar. Highmount is already there, so connecting it to Belleayre is not a problem. Maybe these "locals" who oppose expansion should get out of Ulster County for the first time in their lives and see that recreation does NOT destroy the pristine wilderness  and go to other states and Europe and see that ski areas don't have to be destructive. I have people say Tony Lanza (Belleayre's superintendent) is a nice guy and then they say Belleayre has been mismanaged. So which is it? Giving away over 8000 tickets last year doesn't help things. Greene county is the poorest county in New York state, so is Ulster County next?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

Giving away 8,000 free tickets is a good thing.  I've used free vouchers at Belleayre a few times and then I'm more likely to buy breakfast/lunch/beers there and I still spend money on lodging and the 1 or two area restaurants...and buy beer at the Belleayre mini-mart


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## thinnmann (Sep 10, 2008)

Suggest you read today's position editorial at The Daily Freeman.

snip--->>>

*Providing low-cost public facilities -- such as ski resorts, golf courses and camping facilities -- is part of what governments should do. Citizens without the wherewithal or opportunity to recreate at private facilities are thereby given an affordable alternative.

Belleayre Mountain Ski Center is a state-owned facility, on a mountain owned by citizens of the state of New York, offering reasonably priced lift tickets and an extended skiing season.

By almost any measure, such elaboration of recreational opportunities for state residents is a good thing. And it's particularly true in an industry that, by its nature, tends toward oligopoly since ski-able mountains are a limited resource.

Moreover, the development of Belleayre into an attractive operation was a conscious state policy encouraged by leaders in this region during the 1990s. It was a direct, well-considered response to the erosion of IBM employment in the Mid-Hudson Valley, an effort to grow the tourism-based economy of the entire region. The partnership between the state and the privately financed Belleayre Resort proposal is the fruition of that conscious policy to grow the regional economy.

By that measure, too, the state commitment to providing recreational opportunities at Belleayre is validated.​*


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Giving away 8,000 free tickets is a good thing.  I've used free vouchers at Belleayre a few times and then I'm more likely to buy breakfast/lunch/beers there and I still spend money on lodging and the 1 or two area restaurants...and buy beer at the Belleayre mini-mart



nobody I know has ever paid for a lift ticket at Belleayre...


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## Trekchick (Sep 10, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Suggest you read today's position editorial at The Daily Freeman.
> 
> snip--->>>
> 
> ...



Thank you for continuing to bring information to the table on this topic.

Note to Hijackers:
I enjoy a perfectly good hijack as well as the rest of 'em, but sorting through your personal debate about a double negative(skidork stop with the nit picking) and continuing the debate, while debating about if the debate should continue, has only cluttered up, an otherwise informational thread about something important to the sport we love.


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> an otherwise informational thread about something important to the sport we love.



And more importantly... it's important to the place Ed_Drum and I live...


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## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> skidork stop with the nit picking



Sorry.  I'll behave now.


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Providing low-cost public facilities -- such as ski resorts, golf courses and camping facilities -- is part of what governments should do. Citizens without the wherewithal or opportunity to recreate at private facilities are thereby given an affordable alternative.



Leveling the playing field will help keep costs down for all ski areas so everyone can benefit...!!!  Not just one place...

Governments should do a lot of stuff...  

My concern is mismanagement of my $$....


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## Trekchick (Sep 10, 2008)

Thank you!


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## RENO (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> Sorry.  I'll behave now.




Sinner...


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> nobody I know has ever paid for a lift ticket at Belleayre...



The first time I skied there in 2005...I think I paid $15-20 per day for their closing weekend.
In the spring of 2006 I had vouchers.
I was there opening day of the 2006-07 season and I paid $25 for a lift ticket but the lift ticket was good for a free day late in the season and then I also found a lift ticket in the snow that I used for another free late season day.
This past April I got a voucher from someone here on AZ and also bought a ticket for $35 or so.


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 10, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> I have people say Tony Lanza (Belleayre's superintendent) is a nice guy and then they say Belleayre has been mismanaged. So which is it?



The claims of mismangement aren't directed at Tony, but at the state/DEC level.  

I've asked this question before and never got an answer... why have the Greene County ski areas only recently decided that Belleayre's policies are bad for their bottom line?  What is Belleayre doing differently, as far as pricing, from what it's been doing for the past 20 years?  Not trying to start an argument, I'd really like to know.


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## RENO (Sep 10, 2008)

Haven't been to Belleayre before and decided we were gonna hit it this season and look what happens? :???: :evil:


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> Sorry.  I'll behave now.



Dude... do that voodo that you do so well...


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## ed-drum (Sep 10, 2008)

I made a phone call to this morning to some people  who have been connected to Belleayre for decades. Hopefully I'll get some inside info on what is going on with Belleayre in the next day or two. The mis-management of money in this country is getting out of hand. This is a  bad situation. I have friends who work up here at the ski areas, hotels, restaurants, stores, etc., and it is going to be a trickle down effect for the local economy. Real estate people who sell houses around here are being forced to quit their house selling jobs and are looking for work elsewhere. Young people who work at the ski areas are concerned, for jobs will be cut further. My ski teaching friends are concerned. My bartender friends are worried stiff. Hunter has turned into a ghost town in the last five years.  No more places to listen to live music. Woodstock has hardly any live music. Yes, it has some but they are forced to charge a too high entry fee to survive. Are Whiteface, Gore and places like Jones beach next?


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## SkiDork (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Dude... do that voodo that you do so well...


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 10, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Suggest you read today's position editorial at The Daily Freeman.
> 
> snip--->>>
> 
> ...





dmc said:


> My concern is mismanagement of my $$....





you keep griping about mismanagement of $$, dmc, but the other side of the equation is expressed pretty well by that editorial thinnmann added to the thread.  

you can make a rational argument that losing money on the daily operation of belleayre is worthwhile because it encourages economic activity in the region.  

i don't have the numbers, but maybe the extra tax revenue generated by the increased business stemming from government-subsidized skiing pays for the losses at belleayre?  and, even if the funds aren't totally recouped, maybe having an affordable service being provided to the public is a good thing?

i don't know what the right answer is....and the debate would definitely end up being political, but i think that criticizing belleayre for wasting tax dollars is an unhelpful over-simplification....


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

James Michaud said:


> The claims of mismangement aren't directed at Tony, but at the state/DEC level.
> 
> I've asked this question before and never got an answer... why have the Greene County ski areas only recently decided that Belleayre's policies are bad for their bottom line?  What is Belleayre doing differently, as far as pricing, from what it's been doing for the past 20 years?  Not trying to start an argument, I'd really like to know.



Greene county ski areas have been worried about this since it was announced...

Belleayre gives away ticket like they are going out of style...  no other area can do that..
Belleayre can hire volunteers...  Other areas can't....
Belleayre is exempt from taxes.... Other areas are not....
Belleayre is exempt from insurance that others..


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> nobody I know has ever paid for a lift ticket at Belleayre...



I've paid for most of my lift tickets at Belleayre, I've only had a few free ones.  It was a free ticket that brought me there in the first place, or else I may have never been there.  I probably would have just stuck with the Poconos, NJ and VT, with a rare visit to Hunter.  Also whenever I'm there I buy lunch at the mountain so I spend money whether my ticket is free or not.


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> I've paid for most of my lift tickets at Belleayre, I've only had a few free ones.  It was a free ticket that brought me there in the first place, or else I may have never been there.  I probably would have just stuck with the Poconos, NJ and VT, with a rare visit to Hunter.  Also whenever I'm there I buy lunch at the mountain so I spend money whether my ticket is free or not.




Wow... way to pump $12 into my tax base.... :sad:

This is a perfect example of preditory marketing...


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Sep 10, 2008)

......


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## ERJ-145CA (Sep 10, 2008)

You obviously don't know how expensive the food is at Belleayre.  I'm usually there 6-12 days a season so it's not just once.  Also ski tunings while I wait at the place at the intersection of 28 and the road to Belleayre including the gratuity and buying gasoline.  I think it's a little more than 12 bucks.  It's maybe 1 trip to Hunter versus 6-12 to Belleayre, plus I'm not the only person, I don't think I personally am propping up your economy, if that's what you think I believe.


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## thinnmann (Sep 10, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> I've paid for most of my lift tickets at Belleayre, I've only had a few free ones.  It was a free ticket that brought me there in the first place, or else I may have never been there.  I probably would have just stuck with the Poconos, NJ and VT, with a rare visit to Hunter.  Also whenever I'm there I buy lunch at the mountain so I spend money whether my ticket is free or not.



We get some free tix, but usually use them to bring people to Bell with us.  My family and I skied Belleayre 25 days last season.  I just did some quick estimations:  Between season tickets, race programs, food, gas, ski stuff, lodging and tips, we spent about $4000-$5000 along the Rt. 28 corridor last winter.  And I am cheap.  We regularly ski with three other families that go bigger, and we all bring up other random people for days and weekends.  This extended group probably puts $40000-$50000 into the economy over a 4 month period.  Non-functioning Bellayre = that money goes north....


----------



## ERJ-145CA (Sep 10, 2008)

.......


----------



## catskills (Sep 10, 2008)

Belleayre is my favorite mountain in the Catskills for Holidays and Weekends.  If Belleayre closes I will not be skiing at Hunter and Windham.  Hunter and Windham would be ZOO of people on Holidays and Weekends, if Belleayre closes.    

DMC - closing Belleayre would put a world of hurt on a lot of good people in Western Ulster County and eastern Delaware County that are already just hanging on by a thread.   Entire towns and communities would suffer and  would have to close their doors for good.  

What would happen if Belleayre closed:

Hunter and Windham will be extremely crowded the first year
Hunter and Windham would have a large number of weekends where they would have to turn customers away due to too many people.  This has already happend a few times when Belleayre was opened. 
The following year Hunter and Windham would have less customers than they have now.  Reason people will not put up with sking and riding at a place where it is not enjoyable.   
Personally, If I were a normal season pass customer at Hunter and Windham, I would hold off at buying the season pass this year until after the decision of closing Belleayre is finalized.

For Hunter and Windham to significantly increase the number of customers, they need more trail acreage.   There are only so many customers they can put on a trail safely without more space.  Hunter and Windham can not acquire more acreage anytime soon with the Forever Wild Law in NY state.


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

catskills said:


> DMC - closing Belleayre would put a world of hurt on a lot of good people in Western Ulster County and eastern Delaware County that are already just hanging on by a thread.   Entire towns and communities would suffer and  would have to close their doors for good.




Dude.... I KNOW!!!!!  What the hell is wrong with you people...  really....

*I DO NOT WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE*


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> You obviously don't know how expensive the food is at Belleayre.




The food at Belleayre is expensive for sure..when I first skied there I was expecting the food to be reasonably priced because it's state run but that's definitely not the case although they do have some decent lunch specials.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 10, 2008)

catskills said:


> Personally, If I were a normal season pass customer at Hunter and Windham, I would hold off at buying the season pass this year until after the decision of closing Belleayre is finalized.
> .



I think that's taking it a little too far.  Why should people spite themselves?


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## Trekchick (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Dude.... I KNOW!!!!!  What the hell is wrong with you people...  really....
> 
> *I DO NOT WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE*



I got it!!!:smile:


----------



## ed-drum (Sep 10, 2008)

Where does anyone get the idea that DMC wants Belleayre to close? I sure don't. He goes to Belleayre too! What do food prices have to do with anything anyway? Sports arena's food prices are expensive too! We subsidize  the building of sports arena's, don't we? No matter where I ski, I bring my own lunch 90% of the time. Occasionally I will buy food at a lodge, like sushi at Hunter or some fries or beer or juice. Food prices? Belleayre has a limited selection of food to begin with. What a myopic point of view. No matter where we live in the northeast, a closing or a cutback at a ski area is going to make other ski areas crowded, whether it's in the Catskills, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire or out west. I don't hate Hunter either, for I bought my new boots there last year. If we get a good snow this year, I might take Russ up on doing BEARPEN!


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> I got it!!!:smile:




thanks...


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## RENO (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Dude.... I KNOW!!!!!  What the hell is wrong with you people...  really....
> 
> *I DO NOT WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE*



I can't believe you want Belleayre to close! What's wrong with you!



:razz:  :wink:


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## edgeworker (Sep 10, 2008)

Well, I`m not ready to push the panic button just yet. Hopefully this will get sorted out before the season starts. I have been a pass holder for the past 6 years or so and can`t see the DEC closing the mountain. I also have always had a midweek pass at Hunter for all the known reasons. I definitely perfer Belleayre on the weekends (or Plattekill if they`ve got the goods). And then there`s Highmount.
If it does all go in the toilet then you will find me at Mad River Glen on the weekends - hell, I`ll be there alot of the weekends anyways.
So get your hands off the panic button and write the DEC.


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## thinnmann (Sep 10, 2008)

*Meeting at Belleayre on Saturday to Support Belleayre*

Just received this email from Belleayre Mountain Racing Association:

paste---->>>>

We urge all of our members, their friends, skiers/snowboarders/snowshoers, non-skiers/non-snowboarders and those who support the economic viability of this Catskill region to attend a meeting this Saturday.

Where: Belleayre Mt., Lower Lodge

When: Saturday, September 13

Time: 9 a.m.

Who is Welcome:  EVERYONE!!!!  NUMBERS CAN HELP MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THE PRESS WILL BE THERE.  PLEASE COME SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR OUR MOUNTAIN.

Whether you can make the meeting or not, people who either ski at Belleayre or who support Belleayre and the region are urged to e-mail, write or call their representatives:

DEC: www.dec.ny.gov/about/407.html and e-mail Pete Granis DEC Commissioner (there seems to be some technical trouble with their email)

Governor: www.ny.gov/governor/index.html and go to the governor’s e-mail

Senator John J  Bonacic-bonacic@senate.state.ny.us 
Assembly Member Kevin Cahill
Governor Clinton Bldg Suite G-4
1 Albany Ave.
Kingston NY 12401 845 338 9610

 Congress Member Maurice Hinchey
291 Wall street
Kingston, NY 12401
845 331 4466

Assembly member Clifford Crouch
1 Kattelville Road Suite 1
Binghamton, NY 13901
607 648 6080

 Congress member Kirsten Gillibrand
111 Main Street
Charles Cook County Bldg
Delhi NY 13753
607 746 8449​


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## Richard Ellis (Sep 10, 2008)

Thank you Thin Man.  I was just about to post that letter.

Whether you go to the meeting or not, I urge everyone to contact their elected and unelected representatives.

The New York State Legislature has two houses.  The first is the Senate.  You can search for your senator by entering your zip code in the form here.

The second is the Assembly.  Find yours here.

Make a phone call to them.  It is far more effective than sending an email.  It is one thing to hear you have 193 emails and quite another to hear your staff has spent the entire day fielding calls from constituents concerned about Belleayre.

Do not forget to include the Governor Patterson.  His phone number is 518-474-8390.  His staff will only take your zip code and a one word statement of your "position", support or oppose.  It will not be double dipping to also send him an email.  You can do that by filling out the form here.

The letter above tells you how to contact the DEC.

I look forward to seeing everyone at Belleayre on opening day.

Richard Ellis


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## hardline (Sep 10, 2008)

ok so i have put a bunch of thought into this.

1. in order for windam/hunter to make any sort of claims they need to disclose their numbers.

2 bell's numbers need to be disclosed.

3. all of what i have scene is complete conjecture.

4. if bellaerye closes. it will for a fact bring some sort of economic damage to the area. 

5. if bellaerye closes the people that make the trip from NJ and PA will stay at there local mountains or those that have the money will just go north.

6. it hate seeing things like this played out in the court of public opinion. there is not enough raw data to suport any side. which is one of the reasons hunter windam hired lobbists. facts, facts facts,


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

hardline said:


> ok so i have put a bunch of thought into this.
> 
> 1. in order for windam/hunter to make any sort of claims they need to disclose their numbers.
> 
> ...



There are tons of facts surrounding this...

http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/facts_inherent_savings.html
http://coalitiontosavebelleayre.org/whats-new.php
http://www.taxfoundation.org/press/show/1369.html
http://www.greencatskills.com/belleayre-mountains-unfair-advantage
http://www.wickedlocal.com/mpnnow/towns/bristol/x170774947
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/index.cfm?BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=74969&newsid=19435235&rfi=8


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## hardline (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> There are tons of facts surrounding this...
> 
> http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/facts_inherent_savings.html
> http://coalitiontosavebelleayre.org/whats-new.php
> ...



those are all put out by interested parties. i talking actual financials. which is going to hard since windam and hunter are privatly held.


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## millerm277 (Sep 10, 2008)

hardline said:


> those are all put out by interested parties. i talking actual financials. which is going to hard since windam and hunter are privatly held.



That is true.

I personally stand on Hunter/Windham/Plattekill's side of the argument, and I do think that if Belleayre is recieving significant subsidization (as has been claimed), that should be ended.

If Belleayre is profitable on it's own (without subsidization), then I can't argue much with anything they do.
If NYS wants to run Belleayre as a bare-bones operation to allow all income levels access to ski, I understand.

If NYS wants to make Belleayre into a high-end resort, and it doesn't make money...that would seem like an irresponsible thing to do with taxpayers money, and it would be hurting the private businesses in the same space. 

(I do not live in NYS.)


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## evantrentful (Sep 10, 2008)

Ok I keep seeing these articles complaining about Belleayre blowing snow late in the season and how irresponsible that is. I agree, normal logic says it stupid, but consider that throughout the season belleayre is probably capable at best of blowing 50% the amount of snow that Hunter/Windam can blow. I back this up by noting that even on the best of nights/days for snowmaking Belleayre will only have at 40-50% of the trails under snowmaking ability, while Hunter and Windham have a good 70-80%(conservatively) of their mountains being dumped on (a point which they like to boast on their websites). So all said Belleayre's budget wasted on snowmaking cant even to compare to the other two... and in a way they suffer for it... but that allows them to dump alittle later... and potenitally close alittle later...giving them something that might drive customers to them.

Again, if fare comparisons were going to be made, then belleayre would have multimillion dollar lodges...they dont.... world class snowmaking....they dont....nicer lifts...(minus superchief)... they dont. they barely have anything that rivals the other two, as shown in their attendance numbers. So its responsible to expect them to compete on price. If all the things listed above were equal then I would say its completely unfair having belleayre subsidized. But they arent, they are a state run facility that provides a good atomosphere for everyone to enjoy and I if I have to piss my tax dollars away on something then let it be that than all the other waste new york passes out. 

I want to say just quick, that I do not support the Belleayre Resort project. THAT would be truly unfair


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

hardline said:


> those are all put out by interested parties. i talking actual financials. which is going to hard since windam and hunter are privatly held.



Aren't corporate tax returns public domain?


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

evantrentful said:


> Again, if fare comparisons were going to be made, then belleayre would have multimillion dollar lodges...they dont.... world class snowmaking....they dont....nicer lifts...(minus superchief)... they dont. they barely have anything that rivals the other two, as shown in their attendance numbers. So its responsible to expect them to compete on price. If all the things listed above were equal then I would say its completely unfair having belleayre subsidized. But they arent, they are a state run facility that provides a good atomosphere for everyone to enjoy and I if I have to piss my tax dollars away on something then let it be that than all the other waste new york passes out.
> 
> I want to say just quick, that I do not support the Belleayre Resort project. THAT would be truly unfair



Bellearye has 2 quads... Just like Hunter...
Hunter has an old outdated lodge... Like Belleayre..

But whats not equal is operation costs that are subsidized by NYS...


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## hardline (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> Bellearye has 2 quads... Just like Hunter...
> Hunter has an old outdated lodge... Like Belleayre..
> 
> But whats not equal is operation costs that are subsidized by NYS...



i know that you have access to more info than i do. 

is there any hunter or windam financial info that has been released to the public? i would imagine it pretty easy to get ahold of bells info. i would love to do a side by side comparision. then factor in the breaks that bell gets.


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## dmc (Sep 10, 2008)

hardline said:


> i know that you have access to more info than i do.
> 
> is there any hunter or windam financial info that has been released to the public? i would imagine it pretty easy to get ahold of bells info. i would love to do a side by side comparision. then factor in the breaks that bell gets.



No I just live there..
And know how to use google..


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 10, 2008)

hardline said:


> is there any hunter or windam financial info that has been released to the public? i would imagine it pretty easy to get ahold of bells info. i would love to do a side by side comparision. then factor in the breaks that bell gets.



If you can find Hunter and Windham's numbers, you're a better internet sleuth than me.


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## hardline (Sep 10, 2008)

dmc said:


> No I just live there..
> And know how to use google..



i know but most of the info on the web is not real numbers. it is put out by the different groups on either side. i can't really make an educated decision with the info out there.


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## catskills (Sep 11, 2008)

evantrentful said:


> Ok I keep seeing these articles complaining about Belleayre blowing snow late in the season and how irresponsible that is. I agree, normal logic says it stupid, but consider that throughout the season belleayre is probably capable at best of blowing 50% the amount of snow that Hunter/Windam can blow. I back this up by noting that even on the best of nights/days for snowmaking Belleayre will only have at 40-50% of the trails under snowmaking ability, while Hunter and Windham have a good 70-80%(conservatively) of their mountains being dumped on (a point which they like to boast on their websites). So all said Belleayre's budget wasted on snowmaking cant even to compare to the other two... and in a way they suffer for it... but that allows them to dump alittle later... and potenitally close alittle later...giving them something that might drive customers to them.
> 
> Again, if fare comparisons were going to be made, then belleayre would have multimillion dollar lodges...they dont.... world class snowmaking....they dont....nicer lifts...(minus superchief)... they dont. they barely have anything that rivals the other two, as shown in their attendance numbers. So its responsible to expect them to compete on price. If all the things listed above were equal then I would say its completely unfair having belleayre subsidized. But they arent, they are a state run facility that provides a good atomosphere for everyone to enjoy and I if I have to piss my tax dollars away on something then let it be that than all the other waste new york passes out.


All good points.  Hunter and Windham have yet to release any data.  We don't even know year to year Hunter and Windham skier visits.  For all we know, Hunter and Windham skier visits have doubled. 

I have noticed that the lifties and snowmakers at Belleayre wear a lot more BLING than the same employees at Hunter and Windham.   :wink: So this must be what all the complaining is about. :argue:

Given no change in trail acreage,  how many more weekend skier visits could Hunter and Windham truly  increase?  10 percent at best.  I mean how many can you pack in there with a shoe horn on weekends.  Its not like Belleayre gets a huge midweek crowd that would hurt Hunter and Windham.  

Look lets be honest.  This is all about real estate sales and nothing to do with a state run ski area selling ski tickets.    Give me a break.  Whatever the Greene county real estate investors paid those lobbyists,  they earned every penny.


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 11, 2008)

catskills said:


> Given no change in trail acreage,  how many more weekend skier visits could Hunter and Windham truly  increase?  10 percent at best.  I mean how many can you pack in there with a shoe horn on weekends.  Its not like Belleayre gets a huge midweek crowd that would hurt Hunter and Windham.
> 
> Look lets be honest.  This is all about real estate sales and nothing to do with a state run ski area selling ski tickets.    Give me a break.  Whatever the Greene county real estate investors paid those lobbyists,  they earned every penny.



Unless someone provides really convincing contrary evidence, that ^^ is the story in a nutshell.

The lobbyists were allegedly paid in the $180K range.


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## skidbump (Sep 11, 2008)

Belleayre backers fear cutbacks or shutdown 
By Jay Braman Jr., Correspondent
09/11/2008
Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly
HIGHMOUNT - Efforts have begun to halt what appears to be a plan by the state Department of Environmental Conservation to sharply reduce the operating budget for the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center, which is run by the DEC.
Advertisement


Action began on Monday, the same day town of Shandaken officials learned that state budget cuts could result in the ski center - which is in the town and crucial to the local economy - having a much shorter season than usual in 2008-09 or perhaps not opening at all.

That night, the Town Board unanimously approved a resolution to call for help.

"Shandaken strongly urges the following entities to take issue with these cuts, as it could dramatically damage employment rates, lodging business, retail business and the number of visitors to the town and its tourism-based economic needs," the resolution states. 

The resolution - which was sent to Gov. David Paterson, the state Senate and Assembly, the Ulster County Legislature, the DEC and others - calls for the rescinding of any recent or planned cuts at Belleayre, including the popular Oktoberfest, a Columbus Day staple that has been canceled for this year.

Joe Kelly, of the Coalition of Watershed Towns, said the Oktoberfest typically draws 16,000 people.

In calling for help, Shandaken Supervisor Peter DiSclafani noted that Belleayre "was created under a constitutional amendment to help enhance recreational opportunities for the general public as well as provide a boost to an otherwise economically depressed area ... during difficult winter seasons."

Kelly said the Coalition of Watershed Towns has called an emergency meeting to review Belleayre budget issues and develop a strategy for addressing them.

"We had buses in Albany in March, and we might need to get them up there again in October," he said. "At this point, we need to talk with others in the region and figure out a plan of attack. But this I can say for sure: We've been fighting for this ski center for more than a quarter of a century and, except in 1984, when (then-Gov.) Mario Cuomo tried to close it, this is as bad as it gets. We will not sit back quietly and let the state and the DEC make up their budget crisis on our backs."

State Sen. John Bonacic said the DEC's plan for Belleayre is unclear.

"I have asked the DEC about any contemplated reductions in state funding for Belleayre," said Bonacic, R-Mount Hope. "They tell me no determination has been made."

Bonacic, long an advocate for Belleayre, has regularly appeared at the ski center in the early fall to announce funding for improvements, but no such announcement is expected this year.

Bonacic does, however, expect money that he already has secured for Belleayre to stay at the facility.

"Given the approximately $20 million I have successfully fought to provide Belleayre for various improvements over the last eight years, it is important that Belleayre have the ability to utilize that funding to follow through, complete those projects and continue to be the success it is," the senator said.

Ulster County Legislator Brian Shapiro, a Woodstock Democrat who represents Shandaken, called the possible cuts "outrageous" and vowed to assemble a lobbying group to fight them. 




©Daily Freeman 2008


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## skidbump (Sep 11, 2008)

dmc said:


> Aren't corporate tax returns public domain?



Publicly traded corps publish all their numbers for stock holders ,private do not.I believe Municipalities are accessible by filling a FOIL request to the state.

Belleayre skier counts are open books,hunter and Windham's at this point are here say.Any profit or losses at this point are here say.


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## ed-drum (Sep 11, 2008)

I spoke to the people who are connected to Belleayre and there is no definitive answer yet. "Everything is still up in the air". Dean Gitter the proponent of the resort at Belleayre is suing Paul Smart of the Woodstock Times for an article the paper published saying that Gitter bribed the DEC to give the go ahead for the resort. (Resort means the condos and golf course.) What as mess. I might go to the meeting  on Saturday at Belleayre because I have to pass by the area to fix a car. This whole issue, whatever the outcome is going to be an economic disaster, for "low paying jobs" are better than no jobs.


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## 180 (Sep 11, 2008)

As far as numbers, I know that Hunter's biggest year ever was 1987, 350k skier visits. Now they do roughly half of it.  Anyone who says Hunter is crowded is nuts.  You obviously don't remember waiting in 30-60 minute lift lines.  This does not mean that it doesn't attract a certain clientel.  Those with blue jeans and those that know it has the best skiing this side of Killington. 

Windham has more visits now than Hunter with lift lines to boot.  Both areas can accomidate more people.  

I am very concerned about loosing Belleayre as a resource.  I love it and my kids do.  But the state should fund the Catskills equally.  Belleayre has never semed to be outlandish with their spending, but making snow in April is crazy unless you want to make it to May.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 11, 2008)

180 said:


> As far as numbers, I know that Hunter's biggest year ever was 1987, 350k skier visits. Now they do roughly half of it.  Anyone who says Hunter is crowded is nuts.  You obviously don't remember waiting in 30-60 minute lift lines.  This does not mean that it doesn't attract a certain clientel.  Those with blue jeans and those that know it has the best skiing this side of Killington.
> 
> Windham has more visits now than Hunter with lift lines to boot.  Both areas can accomidate more people.
> 
> I am very concerned about loosing Belleayre as a resource.  I love it and my kids do.  But the state should fund the Catskills equally.  Belleayre has never semed to be outlandish with their spending, but making snow in April is crazy unless you want to make it to May.



Wow Hunter only does 175k skier visits...what was the reason for Hunters decline???  The last time I was in the town of Hunter almost three years ago..so many businesses were shut down and the town could use some sprucing up.  Blue mountain does about 300,000 skier visits a year but they have night skiing and tubing which brings in lots of additional people plus lots of school groups.  I didn't realize Windham was more popular than Hunter.  My Dad and I always used to visit Windham for short weekend trips to avoid the zoo at Hunter.  I figure all the young skiers who from the city who used to come up to Hunter and party in the 80s and early 90s have settled down and had kids and now they go to Okemo or Windham..

When I first started skiing for real in middle school.  The teacher who was head of the skiclub talked about Hunter and K27 like it was some sort of experts mecca and Hunter does have lots of nice terrain..it looks like Hunter is going to do alot better this season.  If Belleayre is closed or only the Superchief is running..I'll definitely go there..


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## WICKEDBUMPER (Sep 11, 2008)

180 said:


> But the state should fund the Catskills equally.  Belleayre has never semed to be outlandish with their spending, but making snow in April is crazy unless you want to make it to May.



One thing about dealing with Gov. budgets is they are 'use it or loose it'.  VERY overly simplified it goes like this...I know that if costs were $115,000 for a year and we were budgeted $100,000 for that year, we got $107,500 the next.  In years like that, once that $100,000 was gone, we had to find it somewhere else in another program's budget. hopefully, someone else had a surplus.  if we didnt find it, we bit the bullet and it came out of our pockets never to be seen again.  In good years where we were given $100,000 but spent $80,000, we were given $85,000 for the next year.  Surpluses are taken away, not to been seen for at least 2 fiscal years.  if the next year is a bad year, FUBAR.   
My GUESS is that 2006 season they blew $XXX,XXX worth of snow - they got a $XXX,XXX budget for 2007.  BUT...2007 Actual by the end of March was less then $XXX,XXX so in order to ensure they get a $XXX,XXX budget for 2008, they blow snow like crazy in April to get them to exactly $XXX,XXX worth of snow in 2007.  
Unlike Hunter or Wind,  Bell is not looking to turn a profit, they are looking to stay on budget.  its a different mentality where if you make money this year, you get punished next.
Thats why in good years not-for-profits hire extra people to work for just the last month of their fiscal year, every employee gets a new computer, lunch is on the house once or twice, or the christmas party you paid to go to last year is free this year.


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 11, 2008)

I think the people who are making an issue about the wasteful spending and unfair playing field for Bell need to have a little dose of perspective.  I am a NYS tax payer and generally a fiscal hawk, so I certainly don't want my tax dollars misspent.  That being said, let's get our priorities straight here.  The NYS budget for 2008-2009, including federal govt transfers, will exceed $120 BILLION dollars.







That's a lot of money.  How large is the Belleayre operating budget in total?  I can guarantee you it's significantly less than $10MM.  Now how much of that is misspent?  10%?  20%?  Just about any reasonable number you choose is no more than a rounding error compared to the fraud, waste and abuse existing in other parts of the budget.  Don't take my word for it - here's an article from the NY Times (not exactly a right wing, fiscally conservative outlet) detailing alleged fraud just in the medicaid program running into the hundreds of millions of dollars each year:

NY Times Story

Do a quick Google search of NY State and budget fraud - you will quickly notice that this is just the tip of the iceberg.  If you, as a citizen of NY State, are really up in arms about wasteful spending of your tax dollars, would it not make sense to speak out against the real sources of the problem?  

Also, let's take a closer look at Belleayre's competitors who are allegedly being hurt by this wasteful government subsidy.  Hunter Mountain recently built the luxury Kaatskill Mountain Club at a total cost of $26MM.  To my knowledge, it is pretty much sold out, and given typical real estate margins, it likely generated in excess of $5MM of pure profit up front.  That doesn't include the 45% of any rental income they will keep or the ongoing management fees.  This year, they are pimping The Pinnacle - 7 luxury condos on top of the base lodge selling at a cool $500-700K each.  Let's be clear here - the no one is going to need to hold a bake sale for the Slutskys anytime soon.

And how about those paupers over at Windham?  They were sold to a group of investors in 2005.  Must be some out-of-state rubes about to be taken to the cleaners due to the deck being stacked against them, right?  Not exactly - the group was lead by longtime resort president Dan Frank and consisted mostly of local money.  Presumably, there were aware of the severe disadvantage that Windham and Hunter were operating under.  They were so fearful of this, not only did they plunk down an eight figure check to buy Windham, they then went and invested an additional $10MM over the next three years, including the largest single investment in Windham's history, on further capital improvements.  Ladies and gentlemen, far from being at the mercy of unfair, state-subsidized competition, I would submit that Belleayre's primary competitors are in fact in rude health.  

Let's be clear here - this is all about two things.  First, it's about the fact that Hunter (and likely Windham) used to have a lot more skier visits in the mid-80s (along with EVERY OTHER major resort in the East during that time period, mind you) and they want to blame someone else for the decrease.  After all, that's a lot of money they seem to be losing out on.  Second, it's about the $180K they paid lobbyists to make this an issue in Albany.  If they really gave a damn about taxpayer money, they would ask those lobbyists to agitate about the real sources of waste in the budget.  But then tackling medicaid fraud  wouldn't impact their bottom line then, would it?  Hmmmm....

Face it - due to geography, hydrology and politics, the Catskill region is never going to be a hot bed of economic activity.  Certainly, making snow in April is undefendable and stupid.  I'm sure there are other examples where Belleayre could run a tighter ship.  That said, to the extent that the state is spending an extra $1-2MM than it should in order to maintain the health of an entity that is arguably the largest economic driver of the Rt. 28 corridor, I can live with that.  If the "wasted" money was going into the pockets of corrupt individuals, perhaps I'd be more upset.  It is, however, clearly going into operating expenses for the mountain and generating a multiplier effect with respect to dollars spent in the Rt. 28 corridor.  Ultimately, this money is supporting jobs and income in a region that is habitually short of same.  The real outrage here is that self-interested parties, acting under the guise of fiscal responsibility, are (apparently successfully) influencing the powers that be in Albany so as to further line there already deep pockets.  It boggles my mind that this issue could be obfuscated to the degree it has already.

Edit: Thanks GSS


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 11, 2008)

Dude learn to spell Belleayre..there is no U...lol

I hope the state sells Belleayre to a ski company like Peaks which owns Big Boulder and Mount Snow and spends some money on the place..


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 11, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> I think the people who are making an issue about the wasteful spending and unfair playing field for Bell need to have a little dose of perspective.  I am a NYS tax payer and generally a fiscal hawk, so I certainly don't want my tax dollars misspent.  That being said, let's get our priorities straight here.  The NYS budget for 2008-2009, including federal govt transfers, will exceed $120 BILLION dollars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nominated for smartest post of the board, ever?

(And I'm not just saying that 'cause I agree....There are a lot of SAT words in that post!  And excellent sentence structure to boot.  Thanks, Tin.)


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## tjf67 (Sep 11, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Nominated for smartest post of the board, ever?
> 
> (And I'm not just saying that 'cause I agree....There are a lot of SAT words in that post!  And excellent sentence structure to boot.  Thanks, Tin.)



x2  nice job.
Now get back to the books


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## WICKEDBUMPER (Sep 11, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Certainly, making snow in April is undefendable and stupid.



Tin, 
great post. except for the line I quoted.
From a purely NOT-FOR-PROFIT accounting point of view, making snow in April is the smart thing to do.  IF and only if ... there was a surplus in the snowmaking budget.  Might as well lay some snow down - it was paid for when the budget was set and it wont hurt next years numbers. 
say they came up $100,000 under their snowmaking budget in FY 2007, FY 2008 snowmaking budget gets cut by probibly $50,000 - $75,000.  What happens in FY 2008 when they need that extra $50,000 - $75,000 if its a bad snow year.  
No Not-for-profit that is run well will ever show any kind of profit FROM OPERATIONS.  They make profits elsewhere on the income statement.
Now, if they were on budget and they blew snow in April, they are just plain a-holes and have no excuse.


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## thinnmann (Sep 11, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Nominated for smartest post of the board, ever?
> 
> (And I'm not just saying that 'cause I agree....There are a lot of SAT words in that post!  And excellent sentence structure to boot.  Thanks, Tin.)



I am quoting some of that in my letters!

and more email from Belleayre Mtn. Racing Association:
paste--->>>

The following web addresses for the contacts below make it easier for people to submit their letters. If you own a second home in the Belleayre region, use that as your address, otherwise they might not be able to respond and/or accept their emailed letter since it is out of their district.


Kirsten Gillibrand does not accept emails from outside her district: http://www.gillibrand.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=29

Clifford Couch: http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=107

Maurice Hinchey: http://www.house.gov/hinchey/contact/

Kavin Cahill: http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=101&sh=con​


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## thinnmann (Sep 11, 2008)

WICKEDBUMPER said:


> Tin,
> great post. except for the line I quoted.
> From a purely NOT-FOR-PROFIT accounting point of view, making snow in April is the smart thing to do.  IF and only if ... there was a surplus in the snowmaking budget.......
> 
> Now, if they were on budget and they blew snow in April, they are just plain a-holes and have no excuse.



I was not there in April - who was?  please tell me - _where _were they blowing snow?
Were they blowing it in order to keep an open and safe run down to the base of Superchief?  Were they blowing it to keep an open and safe run-out from the top of a lift?  Or were they blowing it just to try and cover an entire run in order to open up?


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## Tin Woodsman (Sep 11, 2008)

WICKEDBUMPER said:


> Tin,
> great post. except for the line I quoted.
> From a purely NOT-FOR-PROFIT accounting point of view, making snow in April is the smart thing to do.  IF and only if ... there was a surplus in the snowmaking budget.  Might as well lay some snow down - it was paid for when the budget was set and it wont hurt next years numbers.
> say they came up $100,000 under their snowmaking budget in FY 2007, FY 2008 snowmaking budget gets cut by probibly $50,000 - $75,000.  What happens in FY 2008 when they need that extra $50,000 - $75,000 if its a bad snow year.
> ...



Well, to be fair, if their goal was to ensure that they get a similar sized seat at the budget trough for the following year, then it's still indefensible.  They should focus on running the ski area as best they can instead of playing stupid budget tricks.  Quite frankly, in a year like 2007-2008 with all of the thaw/freeze events we had in the northeast, I'd be surprised if they were under-budget on snowmaking come April.

Again, my broader point here is that while Belleayre can and should be run more efficiently, it is among the worst targets you can pick if you are up in arms about NY State government profligacy.


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## WICKEDBUMPER (Sep 11, 2008)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Again, my broader point here is that while Belleayre can and should be run more efficiently, it is among the worst targets you can pick if you are up in arms about NY State government profligacy.



I'm with you.


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## Bandit2941 (Sep 11, 2008)

So who's going to the meeting Saturday morning? skidbump and I are in.............


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## skidbump (Sep 12, 2008)

wife also


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## ed-drum (Sep 12, 2008)

Woodstock Times 9/11/08 (Belleayre's) "Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to 175,000 since then". An earlier article from the paper stated that Hunter's visits were (ca.) 175,000 and Beleayre's were (ca.) 70,000, so the attendance numbers are now reversed. My friends who work at Hunter have noticed the decline in the last 5 years.


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## thinnmann (Sep 12, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Woodstock Times 9/11/08 (Belleayre's) "Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to 175,000 since then". An earlier article from the paper stated that Hunter's visits were (ca.) 175,000 and Beleayre's were (ca.) 70,000, so the attendance numbers are now reversed. My friends who work at Hunter have noticed the decline in the last 5 years.



Here is the full article.

snip---->>>>

And no Oktoberfest is just the tip of the iceberg says Joe Kelly, Chairman of the Coalition to Save Belleayre, who added that his sources "should know." Kelly said there are reports that if DEC does open the ski center, it will have only one chairlift running to the top of the mountain and only 13 or so open trails.

But Wren said that, like the Oktoberfest, none of these scenarios have been set in stone. "There haven't been any decisions made about Belleayre," she said.

Asked if there were plans to not open Belleayre this year she said "That's not the case at this time."

When operating fully, Belleayre boasts the Catskills' only Cat-access skiing and a widened and improved halfpipe and Area 51 Terrain Park. With 47 trails, parks and glades and 8 lifts, including a new High Speed Quad, Belleayre Mountain has evolved over the years, especially since the early 1980's when Kelly formed his coalition to keep the ski center from facing closure. Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to more than 175,000 skiers since then. 

"I've been hearing things from employees, who have been getting the information from meetings at work," Kelly said this week from his home in Long Island. "I don't want to get Tony in trouble...let's just say people are getting ready for a major cut back."

Kelly said that some people in his organization believe the budget cuts are related to the lobbying Greene County did to curtail Belleayre's operation, which also resulted in the now-vetoed Blue Ribbon Commission.. 

"We certainly hope that this is not the case. But it makes no sense to cancel the Oktoberfest, one of your biggest money-making events in a single year," said Kelly. "And once you are open and operating, it makes absolutely no sense to only operate part of your capital investment. I don't know if people in state government are caving to pressure from Greene County to hold Belleayre Mountain back, but we certainly intend to look at that possibility."

Kelly said he understands the governor's call for cuts and the fact that everyone in the state has to share in the pain of the current economy. 

"But this is going to be way more than our fair share," he added. "We're facing a huge budget cut, the extent of which is only now becoming apparent." ​


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## kingslug (Sep 12, 2008)

dmc said:


> nobody I know has ever paid for a lift ticket at Belleayre...



Uh....I have. Our place is right up the road so we tend to spend some time there and can't always get free tix.


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## Rambo (Sep 12, 2008)

*Ski Belleayre Late Season*

I live in Binghamton NY and have been skiing at Belleayre mid April for the last 4 years. Hunter Mountain and Windham now close early April. This is very sad. Belleayre is a quick 2 hour drive for me. With this economy I wonder how other North East Ski Resorts will fare?


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## thinnmann (Sep 13, 2008)

*news*

Daily Star article:

snips---->>>

The state Department of Environmental Conservation announced Friday that the 29th annual Belleayre Fall Festival will be held at the Delaware and Ulster Railroad in Arkville on Columbus Day weekend.

The event is traditionally at the DEC's Belleayre Mountain ski area, but a DEC spokeswoman said the event, set for Oct. 11 and 12, was moved because of a partnership between DEC and the railroad.

Maureen Wren, DEC spokeswoman, said that Belleayre Mountain representatives will be at the festival to provide information about tickets for the upcoming ski season.

She said Belleayre will operate seven days a week this season, but the DEC will continue to evaluate the ski center's operation.​
also
http://www.catskillsnews.com/News/September08/13/Belleayre_budget-13Sep08.html

and
Belleayre backers rally against cuts


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## dmc (Sep 14, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Uh....I have. Our place is right up the road so we tend to spend some time there and can't always get free tix.



But you can score a free ticket now and then...  more then other resorts in the Catskills...


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## Rambo (Sep 14, 2008)

This is what I remeber reading in articles late last March.

That Belleayre Ski Center was established and in operation before Hunter and Windham came into existence.

That Hunter and Windham lodged complaints with New York State asking that Belleayre raise the price of their lift tickets to be at near the prices of Hunter and Windham (so as to be on a more level playing field as far as lift ticket prices go). Also (this is the point I didn't like) Hunter wants Belleayre to shut down for the season the same time that Hunter does. (lately Belleayre has been going Mid-April and Hunter tends ro close at the beginning of April with the possibillity of opening on a weekend only mid-April).

So I saw only 2 basic requests from Hunter & Windham. Which was to have Belleayre raise their prices of lift tickets and to shorten their length of season. I did not see where Hunter or Windham called for Belleayre to be shut down.


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## Rambo (Sep 14, 2008)

*Snow making in April*

As far as making snow in April at Belleayre, this is what I noticed skiing there in April. To get to the bottom of the High-Speed Quad lift you have to ski down a trail from the Main base lodge. This area tends to melt and lower down get a few bare spots late season. So I could see evidence where snow was made at the beginning of April to firm up the base and cover these bare spots. Also there seemed to be very limited snowmaking farther up the moutain in a few spots to cover thin base areas.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 14, 2008)

Isn't that collusion..it's a free market society..if I have a hot-dog stand and all my competitors sell hot-dogs for $2..I can sell mine for $1 to gain market share.  Attendance at Belleayre doubled in a decade..while skier visits nationwide increased less than 20 percent.  When I was in high school it was all about Hunter and Windham for the skillz..Windham for the cruisers and Hunter for the bumpers.  Well Belleayre has great bump runs and great cruisers and the catskills best race trail (Dot Nebal)..I really hope things are resolved..snowmaking in April is great for marketing..years ago Blue mountain blew snow on closing day..and it was nice dry manmade..better than month old mank..it's a nice thank you to passholders and late season skiers and riders for coming out...

If the weather is nice..Belleayre draws a really good crowd of spring skiers from PA..Closing weekend at Belleayre is a must for me because it's the last time I can go skiing with only a 3 hour drive..cause the next weekend I'll be driving to Vermont..


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## thinnmann (Sep 14, 2008)

*on on*

_Daily Freema_n about the meeting yesterday.

snip--->>>

Robert Shapiro, a Fleischmanns resident, said everyone knows the state needs to make budget cuts, but he questioned the fairness of plans to cut as deep into Belleayre as is being discussed. He wondered if other state-run recreation facilities face the same fate.

"Are the people at Bethpage Golf Course wondering if they will have the grass cut there? Are the folks at Jones Beach wondering if the number of lifeguards will be reduced?" he asked.​


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## AdironRider (Sep 14, 2008)

Considering running the lawn mowers or paying 10 bucks an hour to a high school lifeguard are pennies compared to running a snowmaking system your point is moot IMO. 

Personally I think everyone is freaking out over a ski area that noone seemed to care to much about before this news came. Noone mentioned Belleyare as a great place to ski in the Catskills, everyone mentions Hunter. But as soon as some news comes down that service will be limited, they all freak out and demand the same service they werent using in the first place. 

I say just close it and allocate more funds to the better hills in the ADK's, Gore and Whiteface. Yeah, I said it.


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 14, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Noone mentioned Belleyare as a great place to ski in the Catskills, everyone mentions Hunter. But as soon as some news comes down that service will be limited, they all freak out and demand the same service they werent using in the first place.
> 
> I say just close it and allocate more funds to the better hills in the ADK's, Gore and Whiteface. Yeah, I said it.



I know that you're just trolling, but lots of people go there (and have been going for years) and it's a fun place to ski... a nice yang to Hunter's yin.


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## thinnmann (Sep 14, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Considering running the lawn mowers or paying 10 bucks an hour to a high school lifeguard are pennies compared to running a snowmaking system your point is moot IMO.
> 
> Personally I think everyone is freaking out over a ski area that noone seemed to care to much about before this news came. Noone mentioned Belleyare as a great place to ski in the Catskills, everyone mentions Hunter. But as soon as some news comes down that service will be limited, they all freak out and demand the same service they werent using in the first place.
> 
> I say just close it and allocate more funds to the better hills in the ADK's, Gore and Whiteface. Yeah, I said it.



Great opinion!  Please don't ski at Belleayre.  As a matter of fact, the more of you that stay away the better!  Thanks!


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## tommy5402 (Sep 14, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> I say just close it and allocate more funds to the better hills in the ADK's, Gore and Whiteface. Yeah, I said it.



How bout we close whatever hill you frequent. Naw, better for you to stay there.

But I happen to love Gore, and nothing good comes from shutting belleayre.


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## SkiDork (Sep 14, 2008)

how was the meeting on Saturday?


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## ed-drum (Sep 15, 2008)

The meeting on Saturday was crowded. Standing room only. There were cars with Connecticut and New Jersey Plates in the parking lot, as well as from New York. The Daily Freeman from Kingston did a front page story on Sunday.


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## RENO (Sep 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Considering running the lawn mowers or paying 10 bucks an hour to a high school lifeguard are pennies compared to running a snowmaking system your point is moot IMO.
> 
> Personally I think everyone is freaking out over a ski area that noone seemed to care to much about before this news came. Noone mentioned Belleyare as a great place to ski in the Catskills, everyone mentions Hunter. But as soon as some news comes down that service will be limited, they all freak out and demand the same service they werent using in the first place.
> 
> I say just close it and allocate more funds to the better hills in the ADK's, Gore and Whiteface. Yeah, I said it.



Do you really think that if they shut down Belleayre they won't be going after Gore or Whiteface in the near future if the economy continues the way it's going? :???:
Also, do you really think they're gonna take that money they save from Belleayre and put it into Gore or Whiteface? :???:
Also, did you read any part of this thread and links to info before you made your post? :roll:


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## dmc (Sep 15, 2008)

RENO said:


> Do you really think that if they shut down Belleayre they won't be going after Gore or Whiteface in the near future if the economy continues the way it's going? :???:
> Also, do you really think they're gonna take that money they save from Belleayre and put it into Gore or Whiteface? :???:
> Also, did you read any part of this thread and links to info before you made your post? :roll:



It's his opinion...

I guess everyone's entitled to one..  We could start some hardcore opinion moderation...


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## thinnmann (Sep 16, 2008)

*i'm still on it*

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080916/NEWS/80916025

snip---->>>
_
HIGHMOUNT — Sen. Chuck Schumer Tuesday called on state Department of Environmental Conservation to commit to a full ski season at Belleayre Mountain following reports that the agency was planning to sharply reduce its operating budget.

“Belleayre Mountain Ski Center is bursting with economic benefits for Ulster County and we cannot let it fall to the wayside,” Schumer said. “I hope that the DEC will heed the community’s call and commit to a full ski season at Belleayre so that we can keep the jobs and revenue generated by the ski mountain.”​_
...actually, that is almost the whole article...

Thanks Chuck.


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## dmc (Sep 16, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> _
> “I hope that the DEC will heed the community’s call and commit to a full ski season at Belleayre so that we can keep the jobs and revenue generated by the ski mountain.”​_



Finally...


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 16, 2008)

Do you guys think Belleayre will open before Hunter this season???


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## MarkC (Sep 16, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Do you guys think Belleayre will open before Hunter this season???



It depends on the weather but I doubt it.


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## millerm277 (Sep 16, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Do you guys think Belleayre will open before Hunter this season???



I'd say no. Even if they do get their budget fixed, I'd have to think they will be more cautious with spending this year. Hunter has been more patient about waiting for a long cold spell, but can open more quickly when they do start going.


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## catskills (Sep 16, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Do you guys think Belleayre will open before Hunter this season???


Its my opinion that we are going to get a huge Noreaster on Friday Nov 14, that will close schools after getting more than 24 inches of snow from West Virginia to Maine.  Saturday Nov 15th, every ski area on the northeast will be open.  Its my opinion.  If you don't like my opinion too bad.


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## dmc (Sep 17, 2008)

catskills said:


> Its my opinion that we are going to get a huge Noreaster on Friday Nov 14, that will close schools after getting more than 24 inches of snow from West Virginia to Maine.  Saturday Nov 15th, every ski area on the northeast will be open.  Its my opinion.  If you don't like my opinion too bad.




Wow... Great opinion...

i second that!


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## dmc (Sep 17, 2008)

millerm277 said:


> I'd say no. Even if they do get their budget fixed, I'd have to think they will be more cautious with spending this year. Hunter has been more patient about waiting for a long cold spell, but can open more quickly when they do start going.




The taxpayers eyes are more focused on this now after this last "funding fire drill"...


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## edgeworker (Sep 17, 2008)

from the DEC website:

The 29th Annual Belleayre Fall Festival will be held this coming Columbus Day weekend, but at a new location thanks to a partnership announced today by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and the Delaware and Ulster Railroad. The festival will take place on Oct. 11-12 at the Delaware and Ulster Railroad on Route 28 in Arkville, Delaware County.

The Delaware and Ulster Railroad is an excursion train that combines railroad nostalgia with scenic rides through New York's legendary Catskill Mountains. Trains take visitors through quaint villages, rolling fields, majestic mountains, pastoral farms and near the East Branch of the Delaware River.

Normally held at DEC's Belleayre Mountain ski area about five miles away, the Railroad has worked with DEC to supply support for the festival. Belleayre Mountain representatives will also be on-site to provide information about tickets for the upcoming ski season. Belleayre will operate seven-days-a-week this season.

This year's festival will offer train rides, a huge ski and winter apparel sale, live music, great food, dozens of craft vendors, a kid's crafts tent, face painting, and much more - all at the peak of fall color in the Catskill Mountains.


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## thinnmann (Sep 17, 2008)

*two new ones today*

_Daily Freeman_ #1:

snip-->>

HIGHMOUNT - Locals involved with the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center's annual October festival say plans to hold the event in Arkville this year are unacceptable and that state officials have yet to adequately explain the move or why they first attempted to cancel the event.​
_Daily Freeman_ #2:

snip--->>

WASHINGTON - U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer on Tuesday called on the state Department of Environmental Conservation to guarantee a full ski season this winter at the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in the Ulster County town of Shandaken.​


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## skidbump (Sep 18, 2008)

Ok got 2 emails from someone in Phoenicia,
first one was he spoke to Judith Enck at DEC and she stated that fall festival was canceled to ease the budget cuts "6-7% "that have been mandated across all government agency's and he was assured that mt would be in full operation but cuts may affect staffing"minimally".
Second email stated info out belleayre is  that its looking as bad as 2 lifts 5 trails.


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## dmc (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm hearing some Belleayre instructors are coming to Hunter...


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## ed-drum (Sep 18, 2008)

No matter what, this Belleayre debacle is going to be a disaster for ALL of the ski areas here. You can only fill a gallon jug with a gallon of liquid, then it will overflow. In other words, Hunter, Windham and Plattekill will suffer for they can only handle so many skiers. Belleayre pays better than Hunter, so the instructors will suffer. But now that Hunter has fired their long time heads of their ski school, maybe things will change for the better. So, will Hunter let go of their lesser instructors to get the better instructors from Belleayre? I've heard that Belleayre has a good ski school. Does anyone out there have a lot of money to develop Bearpen?


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## Geoff (Sep 18, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> No matter what, this Belleayre debacle is going to be a disaster for ALL of the ski areas here. You can only fill a gallon jug with a gallon of liquid, then it will overflow. In other words, Hunter, Windham and Plattekill will suffer for they can only handle so many skiers. Belleayre pays better than Hunter, so the instructors will suffer. But now that Hunter has fired their long time heads of their ski school, maybe things will change for the better. So, will Hunter let go of their lesser instructors to get the better instructors from Belleayre? I've heard that Belleayre has a good ski school. Does anyone out there have a lot of money to develop Bearpen?



If I were running Hunter, Windham, or Plattekill, I think I'd have a very different opinion.  Those three ski areas have to make it on their own.  If the state pays Belleayre employees above the market rate, the other three ski areas either have to match the rate or get less desirable employees.

I think this is all nonsense.  New York should lease the ski area to another operator rather than run it poorly and at a loss themselves.  Only 100-ish miles away, you have New Hampshire leasing Sunapee to the Muellers.  The ski area is booming.  The biggest problem is keeping a leash on the Muellers since they want to expand and develop real estate.  I haven't heard anyone complain about the quality of the skiing product there.  It's not for me since it's so intermediate but you need drive-to intermediate areas as feeders to the sport.


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## ed-drum (Sep 18, 2008)

Maybe people should live in the area that's being affected before saying this is nonsense. It is going to kill the economy here. Then they would hear the people at Belleayre who don't go to the other Catskill areas state the reasons why they no longer ski at Windham or Hunter. A lot of people at last Saturday's meeting in the Belleayre lodge expressed concerns about the economy. We will have to change the New York State constitution to get Belleayre run by a private company.Plattekill is spoken highly of by the locals, but the parking lot is too small to accommodate any more skiers. This is more than a ski area that we are worried about. Ulster County was pretty arrogant about it's job base and security until IBM tanked and left empty buildings and people without a way to pay their bills. Maybe some people should see all of the closed businesses around the towns of Hunter and Tannersville.


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 18, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> We will have to change the New York State constitution to get Belleayre run by a private company.



Geoff: this ^^^^ is the part of the Mueller-style plan that would take a wee bit of work.


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## dmc (Sep 18, 2008)

Geoff said:


> If I were running Hunter, Windham, or Plattekill, I think I'd have a very different opinion.  Those three ski areas have to make it on their own.  If the state pays Belleayre employees above the market rate, the other three ski areas either have to match the rate or get less desirable employees..



to make matters worse - Belleayre is exempt from labor laws that are enforced at private areas... Meaning they can hire "volunteers" like ambassadors and pay them with a season pass...  Hunter hasn't been able to do that for a long time...  The state came in and told them everyone had to be on a w2.

It's also expempt from 4 hour minimum pay per day...  So if someone works an hour the mountain pays them for an hour... not 4...  Like the rest... Seem fair... But what if you got a couple hundred part time instructors on a rainy day...   No $ coming in... Because of the weather and all those people get paid for 4 hours...  Thats a big cost....


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## dmc (Sep 18, 2008)

James Michaud said:


> Geoff: this ^^^^ is the part of the Mueller-style plan that would take a wee bit of work.



i say do it...


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## Method9455 (Sep 18, 2008)

I think ultimately a private company running the operation would be more stable for skiers/riders and more profitable for the area - IF the state allows them to make some expansions. Maybe in exchange for approving the resort it is time to sell it off to some private corporation. 

I find it difficult to get worked up over this when the state of NJ is spending millions to help with building the new Giants/Jets stadium. Those teams could easily fund the whole thing they just fought for and got a few million. You could probably run Belleayre for decades on that money. I know it's a different state but this kind of crap happens all the time. And contrast the area around Giants stadium - within view of NYC - with the area around Belleayre/Hunter/Windham, and tell me which needs more economic stimulus?


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## ed-drum (Sep 18, 2008)

Forget about Windham, Hunter and Plattekill.  Even if they weren't here it is going to be a mess for the people who live around here. Belleayre installed a fixed, slow quad a few years ago then replaced it with a high speed detachable lift two years ago. What were they thinking? Talk about wasting tax dollars. The roads around here stink, the schools are being mismanaged and  property taxes are skyrocketing. Who is footing the bill to rebuild Shea stadium, which is over 40 years old? The Beatles played there. Isn't it being subsidized by tax dollars? Lets close Shea stadium and dissolve the Mets.  The inmates here in New York are running the asylum. As I have stated before, I know people who work at all of the ski areas here and they are concerned as well as the people who work at bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. What about the ski shops such as Potter Bros. who cater to Belleayre skiers almost exclusively? Let's close Belleayre totally, for it has concerts in the summer and a beach. Let's close Jones beach too. Shut down New York state while we're at it.


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## thinnmann (Sep 22, 2008)

Richard Ellis said:


> I haven't told my nine year old daughter she may not have a ski team this year.  I have no idea how to have that conversation...



Did you know our kids might ski together?...

From an email received today from one of the coaches:

_There will be a race program at Bellearye this season, according to Tony.
We will train every weekend on whatever trails are available. There will be
limited gate training. But there will be NO races at Bellearye. No high school,
no NASTAR , no USSA,no MWC.

So, if your daughter wants to race this year, you should sign her up for USSA/NYSSRA.
She will then be able to compete in the Rip Van Winkle series. The
races will no doubt be at Hunter, Windham, and Holiday.

Come to the dry land training on October 25/26 at Belleayre. By then we will
know much more about how the season is shaping up._​


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## Brettski (Sep 22, 2008)

Didn't read the whole thing...BUT

Who is in charge to get some real answers?


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 22, 2008)

Double posted link, sorry.


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## thinnmann (Sep 22, 2008)

Brettski said:


> Didn't read the whole thing...BUT
> 
> Who is in charge to get some real answers?



Looks like we might get a name tomorrow from _Daily Freeman_:

_The man who has the final say over the budget of state-owned Belleayre Mountain Ski Center has been invited to visit the facility next month for a quick lesson on its importance to the local economy._​
...but it does not say who that is...




James Michaud said:


> The Daily Freeman weighs in:
> http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20110578&BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=82701&rfi=6



Old news, Sep. 10, and covered in ths thread here.  I know how tough it is to read this entire thread....


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## legalskier (Sep 22, 2008)

What is unique about Belleayre is that it has a protected status enshrined in the "forever wild" clause of the New York Constitution (article XIV, sec. 1).  The citizens of the state have spoken, reaffirming its status several times.  Thus, efforts to choke off funding for the facility effectively circumvent the will of the people.  Beyond that bottom line status, Belleayre acts as an economic engine in a region that needs it, providing jobs at the facility itself, as well as feeding economic benefits to local businesses like restaurants, hotels, pubs, merchants, tradesmen, artists, craftsmen, real estate firms, healthcare workers, etc. State funding for Belleayre guarantees its permanency, so that it not go the way of other _privately owned_ ski areas that failed in the Catskills (e.g. Cortina; Phoenicia; and Plattekill for a time).  Additionally, Belleayre provides affordable and accessible winter activities to a segment of the state population that otherwise could not participate. At Belleayre many lower income folks have learned the joys of winter sports that the rest of us have enjoyed for so long.  Denying funding denies these people. It would be sadly ironic if these people were effectively discriminated against under Governor Paterson's administration. I hope he does not turn his back on them. Belleayre also has made a commitment to providing services for adaptive skiing, again providing something that may not receive much priority at some _profit-driven_ private areas. Finally, taking the "private v. public" argument to its logical extreme would mean the closure of numerous municipal swimming pools, state and county beachfront parks, municipal golf courses, county campgrounds--in short any and every public facility anywhere near privately owned "competitors." One could only imagine the kind of backlash that would engender. Some earlier posts have noted that lift ticket prices are affordable atBelleayre while the food is expensive. Perhaps this is because the food service is contracted out to a _private_ company. Leasing the mountain to a private company would guarantee the same result for the rest of Belleayre.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 23, 2008)

legalskier said:


> What is unique about Belleayre is that it has a protected status enshrined in the "forever wild" clause of the New York Constitution (article XIV, sec. 1).  The citizens of the state have spoken, reaffirming its status several times.  Thus, efforts to choke off funding for the facility effectively circumvent the will of the people.




Can you explain this argument?  I don't quite get what you're saying, but it could be 'cause I'm not familiar with the issues.  If anything, wouldn't closing Belleayre and letting it go fallow fit better within the "forever wild" mandate?


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## skidbump (Sep 23, 2008)

DEC head may visit Belleayre 
By Jay Braman Jr., Correspondent
09/23/2008
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HIGHMOUNT - The man who has the final say over the budget of the state-owned Belleayre Mountain Ski Center has been invited to visit the facility next month for a quick lesson on its importance to the local economy.

State Sen. John Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, says he has invited Environmental Conservation Commissioner Pete Grannis to visit to see for himself what would happen if Belleayre Mountain is allowed to fail.

Yancey Roy, a department spokesman, said Monday that Grannis has been to Belleayre Mountain before and would gladly visit again.

Belleayre Mountain faces an uncertain future in the face of state budget-cutting measures in response to a substantial and growing state budget gap. While no specific figures have been released officially, staffers and local officials say they have heard 181 jobs will be eliminated and fewer trails and lifts will operate in the upcoming ski season. Amenities such as the ski school and the nursery, which is a form of day care for infants while moms and dads hit the slopes of the family-based facility, are also slated for closure or scaled-back operation.

Last week, Bonacic told the Belleayre Region Lodging and Tourism Association he is working to ensure Belleayre remains the "economic engine" of the state Route 28 corridor.

Bonacic said, "Commissioner Grannis is an avid outdoorsman and someone who cares a great deal about our environment. No cuts to his department are easy for him. I want to impress upon him, though, that when you are cutting Belleayre, you are truly, in an already weakened economy, hurting thousands of people."

The timeline for any decisions about the ski center's budget remain unclear, especially given the news that Gov. David Paterson is warning he may need to call the state Legislature back into session before Election Day to make further cuts to the state budget amid growing troubles on Wall Street. The governor is expected to make that decision by the end of this week.

Meanwhile Belleayre's plight has caught the attention of U.S. Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y.

In a prepared statement, Schumer said the facility is too important to the Ulster County economy to be allowed to fall to the wayside. 

"I hope that the DEC will heed the community's call and commit to a full ski season at Belleayre so that we can keep the jobs and revenue generated by the ski mountain," Schumer wrote. "It would be a severe blow to the region should the ski center not operate for a complete season ... The benefits that would be achieved by cutting operating costs at Belleayre Mountain would pale in comparison to the economic turmoil it would create in the region. I cannot overstate the significance that Belleayre Mountain Ski Center has on the local economy."

Members of the Belleayre Region Lodging Tourism Association said they need to swell their ranks to have a stronger voice in Albany whenever their livelihood is in peril.





©Daily Freeman 2008


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 23, 2008)

legalskier said:


> Some earlier posts have noted that lift ticket prices are affordable atBelleayre while the food is expensive. Perhaps this is because the food service is contracted out to a _private_ company. Leasing the mountain to a private company would guarantee the same result for the rest of Belleayre.



Interestin'.  I wasn't aware of that.


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## skidbump (Sep 23, 2008)

Belleayres web site states they are waiting to price services and head of DEC is invited to area in October..At this rate seasonal renters will have bailed if not already,Snow sport employees will have applied and taken instructor jobs at other mountains,seasonal mountain employees will have looked and maybe found other jobs for winter,season pass holders will look for other mountains,local ski shops will have cut back on inventory and employees again will find other jobs,Ski clubs will have booked bus trips to other mountains,race programs will practice at other areas,and these are just the issues that are at the mountain.
Running a race program on limited terrain is just plain dangerous.Picture early season crowds on the limited terrain due to no snow and then add race teams using up most the available terrain.
Also heard that this boils down to State Senator John J. Bonacic not switching over to democratic party and we all know what happens when political back stabbing gets into the equation.

finished for now i am


----------



## catskills (Sep 23, 2008)

Daily Freeman Article Today - DEC Head May Visit Belleayre

My personal opinion is the NY State would lose a lot more than it saved by cutting back Belleayre's budget this ski season.  The folks that are put out of a job would still be getting a check in the mail, food stamps, and not working.  The hard facts are the folks on the Route 28 corridor want to work.  They just need a chance.


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## legalskier (Sep 23, 2008)

Here is the pertinent language from the state constitution:
"Section  1. The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired,
constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever
kept as  wild  forest  lands.  They  shall  not  be  leased,  sold  or
exchanged,  or  be  taken  by  any corporation, public or private, nor
shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed. Nothing herein
contained shall prevent the state from ...
 constructing  and  maintaining  not  more  than
twenty-five  miles  of  ski  trails  thirty  to two hundred feet wide,
together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no  more  than  two
miles  of  such  trails  shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet
wide, on the slopes of  Belleayre  Mountain...."
(The full text, including references to Whiteface and Gore, can be found by clicking on the link posted by thinnmann on 9-9-08 at 11:24 p.m.)  
It's clear that the citizens specifically voted not only to continue Belleayre but to expand it. Which begs the question, why is Albany ignoring the express language of its own state constitution? It would be interesting to see some party or parties go into court to seek injunctive relief to enforce this language. Section 5 authorizes such actions: "A violation of any of the provisions of this article
may be restrained at the suit of the people or, with the  consent
of  the  supreme  court  in  appellate division, on notice to the
attorney-general at the suit of any citizen."  A lawsuit, of course, could force an investigation, through use of subpoena power, into all the machinations hidden from view that have brought us to this point.


----------



## thinnmann (Sep 23, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Belleayres web site states they are waiting to price services and head of DEC is invited to area in October..At this rate seasonal renters will have bailed if not already,Snow sport employees will have applied and taken instructor jobs at other mountains,seasonal mountain employees will have looked and maybe found other jobs for winter,season pass holders will look for other mountains,local ski shops will have cut back on inventory and employees again will find other jobs,Ski clubs will have booked bus trips to other mountains,race programs will practice at other areas,and these are just the issues that are at the mountain.
> Running a race program on limited terrain is just plain dangerous.Picture early season crowds on the limited terrain due to no snow and then add race teams using up most the available terrain.
> Also heard that this boils down to State Senator John J. Bonacic not switching over to democratic party and we all know what happens when political back stabbing gets into the equation.
> 
> finished for now i am



Belleayre's web site is really bad - which is one of the reasons I started blogging Belleayre.  I have not had time to include all this stuff there because it takes time just following it here at AZ - maybe I can cut & paste my posts and link the articles eventually.... but that is not what I am posting about here...

If you can take me as an example, I have already decided not to buy season tix at Bell this winter (unless they have some kind of last-minute crazy discount fire-sale on them) because it looks like I will be forced to ski at a bunch of other mountains to keep my kid in the race program with the other kids and coaches she knows, likes, and that I trust.  I have not rented the house I usually rent in Halcott, because things are so up in the air - so that home owner needs to find some other way to fill the oil tank.

and re; the political back-stabbing...  I am not sure about that, but let me restate my conspiracy theory:  If they squelch or kill Bell for a season, squeeze the balls out of the local economy, opposition for The Belleayre Resort will turn around because it will be looked at as the economic savior of the area.  Now if that isn't politically connected in so many ways, I don't know what is....


----------



## evantrentful (Sep 23, 2008)

As Skibump said, I think alot of the damage is already being done and setting Belleayre up for what will be a snowball effect. With only a few months before the season starting and a complete lack of set plans, Belleayre frequents (season pass holders, program members, workers, etc) are going to be slowly be trickling away, given deadlines for cheaper passes at other resorts and job positions available so by the time they figure out whats going to happen it really wont matter anymore. the damage will be done and this season will end up being a disaster for belleayre from an attendance standpoint. Factor in the potential for decreased operations and the losses are going to mount. It still takes a minimal amount of resources to operate the mountain in a limited function. I suspect costs wont drop as much as attendance and they will be worse off had this whole drawn out process never occured.


----------



## dmc (Sep 23, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I am not sure about that, but let me restate my conspiracy theory:  If they squelch or kill Bell for a season, squeeze the balls out of the local economy, opposition for The Belleayre Resort will turn around because it will be looked at as the economic savior of the area.  Now if that isn't politically connected in so many ways, I don't know what is....



I can't help thinking that myself...  A ballsy and dangerous move...

If it's true... they should "rot in hell" for hurting the area....  And should pay a price for doing so... 

I hope it because on incompetence rather then game playing...


----------



## catskills (Sep 23, 2008)

dmc said:


> I can't help thinking that myself...  A ballsy and dangerous move...
> 
> If it's true... they should "rot in hell" for hurting the area....  And should pay a price for doing so...
> 
> I hope it because on incompetence rather then game playing...


Maybe the thinking lets cut Belleaye from 175,000 visits down to 90,000 visits.  Then lets see what ski areas pick up the Belleaye skiers.  Gore documents state 45 percent of their skier visits are from the Hudson River Valley and points south.  *It may not be only Hunter and Windham that want to feed off Belleayre's lost skier visits*, Gore and Whiteface may also want to increase their skier visit counts.  ORDA Borrows $1.2 Million for Gore and Whiteface - total borrowed $9.2 Million .  Difficult to say what political deals are being done behind closed doors.  :flag:


----------



## dmc (Sep 23, 2008)

catskills said:


> Maybe the thinking lets cut Belleaye from 175,000 visits down to 90,000 visits.  Then lets see what ski areas pick up the Belleaye skiers.  Gore documents state 45 percent of their skier visits are from the Hudson River Valley and points south.  *It may not be only Hunter and Windham that want to feed off Belleayre's lost skier visits*, Gore and Whiteface may also want to increase their skier visit counts.  ORDA Borrows $1.2 Million for Gore and Whiteface - total borrowed $9.2 Million .  Difficult to say what political deals are being done behind closed doors.  :flag:



maybe with economy in the crapper the extra will just not ski..... 

I have heard of some Belleayre instructors coming to Hunter...  

I'm sure they will be welcomed with open arms until the situation can stabilize in the other valley.....


----------



## andrec10 (Sep 23, 2008)

*To the misplaced racers...*

If any of you are thinking of coming over to Hunter, you may want to give Jim Catalano (Race Director) a buzz if you have any questions.


----------



## skidbump (Sep 23, 2008)

What really bugs me is no one has the balls to say exactly what is happening.I know they"people at mountain" check out this forum.Not one word..They have been working on pricing for over a month and not 1 word from anybody..That just plain asinine.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 23, 2008)

Even if Belleayre operates normally this season...they received so much bad press the past few weeks..Their marketing guys need to come up with some sort of strategy if they get decent last minute funds from the state..


----------



## hardline (Sep 23, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Even if Belleayre operates normally this season...they received so much bad press the past few weeks..Their marketing guys need to come up with some sort of strategy if they get decent last minute funds from the state..



i would imagine that if things aren't solid by this weekend they will lose a shitton of biz


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 23, 2008)

hardline said:


> i would imagine that if things aren't solid by this weekend they will lose a shitton of biz




For sure...I'm not going to want to ski there if only the Superchief chair is running..


----------



## jamesdeluxe (Sep 23, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> let me restate my conspiracy theory:  If they squelch or kill Bell for a season, squeeze the balls out of the local economy, opposition for The Belleayre Resort will turn around because it will be looked at as the economic savior of the area.  Now if that isn't politically connected in so many ways, I don't know what is....



It sounds like you've got the makings of a new Oliver Stone movie... so let's hear the whole theory and which politicians and business people are involved.  How are the strings being pulled?  How are they keeping it quiet?  

Wouldn't it be easier to just pay for a couple well-connected lobbyists?


----------



## RootDKJ (Sep 24, 2008)

dmc said:


> to make matters worse - Belleayre is exempt from labor laws that are enforced at private areas... Meaning they can hire "volunteers" like ambassadors and pay them with a season pass...  Hunter hasn't been able to do that for a long time...  The state came in and told them everyone had to be on a w2.
> .



couldn't Hunter tax the volunteers for the cost of the lift ticket?  28% of the cost of the lift ticket could only be around $200.  I realize that it's pretty shitty to tax a volunteer, but since it's a for profit business i would think that's around the law.


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## k2 four (Sep 24, 2008)

*21 days*

I don't think the big powers behind Belleayre understand what is about to happen: Families are going to migrate to other mountains, rent homes elsewhere, eat out elsewhere, drink the beer in some other bar, teach at some other mountain, enroll their children in some other program, etc., etc...... This is only the immediate fall-out.

The huge issue happens when those same families make friends at the new mountain, their kids make friends, they find their favorite restaurant, they become comfortable with the new commute, they discover the beer to be pretty good at the new bar, they enjoy their new rental home, etc, etc. These folks are likely to not come back to Belleayre once the state gets their sh*t together. Belleayre will be rebuilding for years.

The clock is ticking. Most areas have early season discounts that run out around October 15th. People are realizing that vacation rentals are filling-up elsewhere. Program deadlines are approaching. I feel that Belleayre has about 21 days before the clock strikes 12 and there will be no turning back.

Judging by how NY State operates, the full funding should be awarded around Thanksgiving.


----------



## catskills (Sep 24, 2008)

It looks like one of Ulster Counties finest politicians thinks he has the answer.  

Donaldson proposes regional ski pass for the the Catskills

I don't think Donaldson gets it.  If NY State cuts Belleayre's budget, then Ulster County and greater NY State will loose a lot of tax revenue from tourism.   Restore the Belleayre budget first and then you can talk about promoting the entire Catskills region.  Cut the Belleayre budget and more skiers will be staying home, going out west or  going to Vermont for skiing and snowboarding.  :smash:


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## dmc (Sep 24, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> couldn't Hunter tax the volunteers for the cost of the lift ticket?  28% of the cost of the lift ticket could only be around $200.  I realize that it's pretty shitty to tax a volunteer, but since it's a for profit business i would think that's around the law.




Proabably easier just to pay them...


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## ed-drum (Sep 24, 2008)

How does this relate to a "Oliver Stone movie"? Do people think that his movies are ALL "conspiracy theories"? Was "Platoon" a conspiracy movie? He directed Any given Sunday, Born on the Fourth of July, The Doors, The Hand, Natural Born Killers, Nixon, Salvador, Seizure, Talk Radio, U-Turn, Wall Street, et-al.. The only "conspiracy theory" movie he did was JFK. I guess there are no "conspiracies" in world history. I suppose that Julius Caesar wasn't murdered by senators in a "conspiracy" either. The Gulf of Tonkin incident that started the escalation of the Viet Nam war, which has been proven to have been a total fabrication wasn't a "conspiracy"  either. Then again, Admiral Francis Morrison who was at the Gulf of Tonkin was Jim Morrison's father. Belleayre is a "conspiracy theory"?  Give me a break!     "Have I then become your enemy,  because I tell you the truth?" Galations, 4:16


----------



## hardline (Sep 24, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> For sure...I'm not going to want to ski there if only the Superchief chair is running..



but dont you find yourself by the end of the day over on the otherside doing power laps down dot


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 24, 2008)

hardline said:


> but dont you find yourself by the end of the day over on the otherside doing power laps down dot



I like to start on Superchief and then work myself over to Dot Nebal..you can get to Dot Nebal from the Superchief but it's a long uphill slog..I wish they had a high speed quad on the Dot Nebal side..


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## ta&idaho (Sep 24, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I like to start on Superchief and then work myself over to Dot Nebal..you can get to Dot Nebal from the Superchief but it's a long uphill slog..I wish they had a high speed quad on the Dot Nebal side..



What they really need, IMO, is some kind of way to get from the mid-mountain offloading station up to the top.  The top little bit of that mountain is great, but the long runout is a bummer.  Do they ever let you just load at mid-mountain like some other resorts do?


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## hardline (Sep 24, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I like to start on Superchief and then work myself over to Dot Nebal..you can get to Dot Nebal from the Superchief but it's a long uphill slog..I wish they had a high speed quad on the Dot Nebal side..



i agree a high speed would be dope. i will take maybe 2 runs on the cheif side then im out. too many human gates and i cant go fast without worrying about hitting some kid.


----------



## faceplant (Sep 24, 2008)

catskills said:


> It looks like one of Ulster Counties finest politicians thinks he has the answer.
> 
> Donaldson proposes regional ski pass for the the Catskills
> 
> I don't think Donaldson gets it.  If NY State cuts Belleayre's budget, then Ulster County and greater NY State will loose a lot of tax revenue from tourism.   Restore the Belleayre budget first and then you can talk about promoting the entire Catskills region.  Cut the Belleayre budget and more skiers will be staying home, going out west or  going to Vermont for skiing and snowboarding.  :smash:


Most def. I'll tell you what--Belleayre goes down & its the last time you'll see me in Greene County. Goes for all who I know to. First, this'll just make weekends worse--avoid it like the plague already. Carefull what you wish for Hunt & Wind, you just might get it. Secondly just on principle. Thats some nasty nasty stuff thats going on. Can't wait for the dirty laundry to get hung out to dry some day, see whose hanging from the line.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 24, 2008)

ta&idaho said:


> What they really need, IMO, is some kind of way to get from the mid-mountain offloading station up to the top.  The top little bit of that mountain is great, but the long runout is a bummer.  Do they ever let you just load at mid-mountain like some other resorts do?



I like to use the speed gained from the upper mountain to cruise the lower mountain fast..I couldn't see doing a hockey stop at mid-mountain and getting back on the lift..but I like long runs..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 24, 2008)

Oh yeah and I've only ever skied Belleayre in April or November..


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## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

ta&idaho said:


> What they really need, IMO, is some kind of way to get from the mid-mountain offloading station up to the top.  The top little bit of that mountain is great, but the long runout is a bummer.  Do they ever let you just load at mid-mountain like some other resorts do?




I hate having to pass by the lodge...  I have to really slow down - worried I'll kill someone there...


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## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

faceplant said:


> . Carefull what you wish for Hunt & Wind, you just might get it. Secondly just on principle.
> Secondly just on principle. Thats some nasty nasty stuff thats going on. Can't wait for the dirty laundry to get hung out to dry some day, see whose hanging from the line.




NOBODY WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!  

Gawd.... Who from Hunter, Windham or Plattekill has said anything about Belleayre closing...???

Seriously - who's feeding you that crap?   THATS the person that should hang on your line...  The people feeing you the "dirty laundry" to make Hunter and Windham look bad...

Don't worry... No "Belleayre fugees"  are coming to Hunter...  I'm not even the least bit concerned...   They go the Plattekill... Cause thats the cool place...  

if they do... Cool... Welcome...    Seriously...  Let's ride...  Im down with cool people...


----------



## skidbump (Sep 25, 2008)

As a skier i sit here wondering why its taking so long to make any decision and or let everyone know what the hell is going on, i can only get pissed.I have been skiing belleayre for last 5 yrs and have made many friends.I thought i found a place i could call home.Today,as i did yesterday and the day before and the day before that i scan the web for info that just doesn't exist.Each day getting more aggravated than the the day before.

As a part time ski instructor i am frustrated at the total lack of communication from the mountain.They must realize that many key instructors who rely on the paycheck have already aligned themselves with other mountains.Intern they must realize that there ski school was only as good as the ski instructors that were employed there. Lose key people and lose the heart and soul of the ski school.I am sure as a regular "100+days"  and as a instructor i am not the only one feeling this way.

I can only imagine how the locals in the surrounding towns feel,how cheated and disrespected.Their whole economy ,their lives and homes teetering on an edge with out any control to which way it will fall.
Investment firms made bad choices and they get 700 billion dollar bail out.Christ all we want is a fully functional ski area to operate at 100 percent.I just don't understand the mentality, be it a political or budget based.

Rant over

Thanks
Pat


----------



## faceplant (Sep 25, 2008)

dmc said:


> NOBODY WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!
> 
> Gawd.... Who from Hunter, Windham or Plattekill has said anything about Belleayre closing...???
> 
> ...



or mebbe Lazlo can reopen Bobcat like he did Plattekill. Ya know, it wasn't a bad little area...


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## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

faceplant said:


> or mebbe Lazlo can reopen Bobcat like he did Plattekill. Ya know, it wasn't a bad little area...



I'm down with that...  It's seems to be a good model...


----------



## Brettski (Sep 25, 2008)

My how much has changed since this initial postiong.....

Just hope the government stays open


----------



## k2 four (Sep 25, 2008)

*20 days*



Brettski said:


> My how much has changed since this initial postiong.....
> 
> Just hope the government stays open



The only thing that has changed is absolutely notta


----------



## thinnmann (Sep 25, 2008)

skidbump said:


> As a skier i sit here wondering why its taking so long to make any decision and or let everyone know what the hell is going on, i can only get pissed.I have been skiing belleayre for last 5 yrs and have made many friends.I thought i found a place i could call home.Today,as i did yesterday and the day before and the day before that i scan the web for info that just doesn't exist.Each day getting more aggravated than the the day before.



Skid, that is not a rant - it is a legitimate complaint.  Why aren't local reporters asking more questions and digging for more info and reporting it?  I suspect AZ user Catskills is closely connected.  It has been mentioned before that Belleayre management monitors this forum.

Notice that others are looking for that non-existent info too.  I bet at least four of the new posters (K2 four, facerplant, legalskier, evantrentful) are here just because this forum turns up on web searches for Belleayre.  As a matter of fact, "Belleayre" must be on a top search term list somewhere, because it is on a lot of website invisible junk text to lure people to web pages with false hits.  Below is text from my last Google saved "belleayre" search email, for example.  None of these search results lead to anything about Belleayre or any of the other words listed:

---->>> paste---->>>>

It was a locked and sealed strong-box of secrets
By Santiagoi1(Santiagoi1) 
... tissue coupons nordstrom discount coupons adderoll coupons army referral bonus gap oulet coupons pierone coupons hibbetts coupons and discounts pprplastic coupons the national average for christmas bonus *belleayre *discount coupons ...
Id seen him - http://santiagoi1ujem.blogspot.com/
This is a metallic circuit - two gardeners and an odd little giggle
By Alysha6t(Alysha6t) 
... *belleayre *discount coupons goodyear tire coupons coupons for oahu attractions blackjack games online game bonus tagged him bonus auto justice for girls coupons three coupons for organic foods entertainment online coupons coupons for ...
The old lady in the sling - http://alysha6tlyfygoso.blogspot.com/
Across the waste of time; his first success Mr
By Gabrielae(Gabrielae) 
... loft in store coupons dungeon keeper 2 bonus packs sportsbook 100ign up bonus mortons steakhouse discount coupons denver three oil change coupons mississauga casino bonus code *belleayre *discount coupons mountdirect coupons intention ...
They commence with certain insects - http://gabrielaeaqzyyd.blogspot.com/​


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## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Notice that others are looking for that non-existent info too.  I bet at least four of the new posters (K2 four, facerplant, legalskier, evantrentful) are here just because this forum turns up on web searches for Belleayre.



Yeah...  I think that as well...

Hunter most likely monitors this board too...  But they don't need "schills" because they have me...  

I should go out an court some of my anti- Belleayre expansion friends... Who live within earshot of the mountain... :smile:


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## k2 four (Sep 25, 2008)

*still 20 days*



thinnmann said:


> Notice that others are looking for that non-existent info too.  I bet at least four of the new posters (K2 four, facerplant, legalskier, evantrentful) are here just because this forum turns up on web searches for Belleayre. [/INDENT]



Yup, you are right on the money. I am monitoring this forum because it seems to be the only place to find anything on the Belleayre fiasco. I was emailed a post by Tin Woodsman back on the 11th from some Belleayre folk, so you can be sure that it is being monitored.

Like Pat, I also work at Belleayre, I know a few management level people up there and nobody really knows anything.

I love Belleayre, however, I can't begin to describe how pissed off I feel. I have to start planning my season soon. Limbo can't last much longer.


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## faceplant (Sep 25, 2008)

dmc said:


> NOBODY WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!
> Seriously - who's feeding you that crap?
> 
> Ok,ok--I really do believe nobody over there wants Belleayre to close...if by nobody you mean labor and customers.  But man you can't tell me management aint behind that Coalition 4 Taxpayer Equality attack website (http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/) that dumps all over Belleayre, even with a petition to sign that puts a spin on that Madison Ave would be proud of. Buncha doubletalk if you ask me. Thats whose feeding us all the crap brother--you see it yet? And if they aint behind it, then who is cause I see nobody steppin up to the plate claiming responsibilities. They oughta rename it Coalition To Run The Comp Outta Town And Jack Up Prices...


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## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

faceplant said:


> dmc said:
> 
> 
> > NOBODY WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!
> ...



Signing a petition is a much better thing then joining a message board just to push an agenda and lie to it's members..  Or spread lies from someone else to it's members....  One of which *you *are guilty of...   

Hunter and Windham are totally behind that link...  Any idiot can see that...
All you gotta do is google..
http://readme.readmedia.com/news/show/Platekill-Seeks-Fair-Competition/116603

There is truth behind what they say and anything I've quoted      - You on the other hand are either spreading lies or telling lies...

http://www.nytaxpayers4equality.org/pdf/coalition_letter_final.pdf



.


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## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

k2 four said:


> I am monitoring this forum because it seems to be the only place to find anything on the Belleayre fiasco.



http://news.google.com/news?rlz=1C1...=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Belleayre&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn


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## thinnmann (Sep 25, 2008)

dmc said:


> Signing a petition is a much better thing then joining a message board just to push an agenda and lie to it's members..  Or spread lies from someone else to it's members....  One of which *you *are guilty of...
> 
> Hunter and Windham are totally behind that link...  Any idiot can see that...
> All you gotta do is google..
> ...



I don't get your point, DMC....   Everything in that position letter is old news, and the article is from March.  Plus the opposition still keeps their numbers secret.  That is a big gaping hole in their position, no?   Are they are turning big profits on their overall operation, but greed might be driving them to make more?  Maybe.  But nobody knows, do they?  Perhaps Bell should complain that it is unfair that they can not create a strong counter argument because the opposition's numbers are not public........

I am not trying to pile on, just looking for clarification on your post.  It doesn't make much sense.


----------



## dmc (Sep 25, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I don't get your point, DMC....   Everything in that position letter is old news, and the article is from March.  Plus the opposition still keeps their numbers secret.  That is a big gaping hole in their position, no?   Are they are turning big profits on their overall operation, but greed might be driving them to make more?  Maybe.  But nobody knows, do they?  Perhaps Bell should complain that it is unfair that they can not create a strong counter argument because the opposition's numbers are not public........
> 
> I am not trying to pile on, just looking for clarification on your post.  It doesn't make much sense.




Thats cool - i can take it... Because your not spreading lies... your debating...  And your not joining just to prove this point and only post in this thread adding absolutely nothing to the community...  Your a regular - the rest are piling on... 

Again... I do not want Belleayre to close... I would like to see it do well...  I'd like to see it managed better on the $ side of thing... Because i think it's a great area!  Not my cup of tea... But i can appreciate why everyone enjoys it...

Perhaps Belleayre should complain...   If they feel they're in getting wronged then I'm cool with that...  Why haven't they done so? 

I know you want numbers...  But i can't help you there...  

There's truth behind a lot of what the opposing areas say...  the laws may be old - but they still remain...

State run facility's get an advantage because they are not bound to pay for things that private areas have to pay for.....  Can you deny this?



I a little buzzed from dinner apologies for the ramble...


----------



## faceplant (Sep 25, 2008)

*heres some more lies...*

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20110578&BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=82701&rfi=6

one good link deserves another dawg


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## catskills (Sep 25, 2008)

DMC I understand you may not want Belleayre to close.  Look I live and pay taxes in Ulster County.  If Belleayre's budget cut stands with only one lift running on the upper mountain and most other programs eliminated, we are going to have wide spread  economic devastation in Ulster and Delaware counties.   Increased unemployment, business foreclosures, alcoholism, drug addiction, lower high school graduation rates, and significant increase in crime.  Property taxes in Ulster and Delaware counties will have to take a huge increase to cover the lost tax income from tourism. 

Right now Ulster county is a nice place to live.  Without a  Belleayre running at 100 percent, the quality of life for everyone is going to be impacted. 

Personally I am going to place the blame on Hunter and Windham's $180,000 spent on lobbyists to attack Belleayre.    Personally I will never ever ski at Hunter and Windham ever again.   

*All that crap about Belleayre's unfair advantage is a broken record since the 1950s. Is Hunter and Windham's skier visits and revenue going up or not?*


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

catskills said:


> Personally I am going to place the blame on Hunter and Windham's $180,000 spent on lobbyists to attack Belleayre.    Personally I will never ever ski at Hunter and Windham ever again.
> 
> *All that crap about Belleayre's unfair advantage is a broken record since the 1950s. Is Hunter and Windham's skier visits and revenue going up or not?*



Look i just got pissed becuase all these people are jumping on this board and saying stuff about Hunter/Windham/Plattekill wanting Bell to close and that is simply not true...


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

faceplant said:


> http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20110578&BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=82701&rfi=6
> 
> one good link deserves another dawg



I hope you'll post in another thread someday...  Rather then "smokejump" into this community only to push your agenda...


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## andrec10 (Sep 26, 2008)

I ski at Hunter as well and never wanted them to close as well, "Healthy" competition is a wonderful thing. Between Belleayre and Windham putting in new lifts, my hope was that Hunter would be forced to replace some of its aging lifts to compete. Simple as that...


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

My hope is the NYS gov allows Hunter to expand into more terrain......


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## skidbump (Sep 26, 2008)

Talked to someone with ties to Minnewaska and he said they laid off 15 people AFTER letting go normal seasonal employees and still looking to cut more.Shame is they alway start at bottom and never get to the heart of the problem.


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Talked to someone with ties to Minnewaska and he said they laid off 15 people AFTER letting go normal seasonal employees and still looking to cut more.Shame is they alway start at bottom and never get to the heart of the problem.



Minnewaska as in the state park?

just for the record... Hunter, Winham,Holiday Valley and Plattekill had nothing to do with that... 

Sucks though...  Even Gov jobs are not immune from this economy...


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## skidbump (Sep 26, 2008)

Yup as in state park


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## evantrentful (Sep 26, 2008)

Yeah. I was up at Minnewaska yesterday afternoon to go running and the girl at the booth told me after 'said date in early november' the park will not be staffed at all, and they just laid off about a dozen people. Its interesting because Minnewaska is run by the Palisades park commission which is kind of like the Port Authority being an inter-state funded group and I thought they might be more immune to cuts (atleast so drastic). Oh well

Haha, I mentioned the Belleayre problems and she said "damn it. my friend and I were going to get season passes finally this year, i had never really been snowboarding before but I wanted to get into it"


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## faceplant (Sep 26, 2008)

At the risk of being called a lyin smokejumper by somebody who feels they own this forum, I got a right to speak same as everybody. The way I see it is this-when the monster killed the little girl nobody cared that Dr Frankenstein said he really didnt know what was gonna go down when he loosed the thing upon the world. The mob didnt care, they just wanted somebodys head on a stick. Right now theres another monster out there reakin havoc upon my world and Greene County put it out there, them and the lobbyists. For them to say they really didn't want this or that just misses the point. Damage is done. Have a look at the saddest website in the world-I pray another one dont get added to it this year...http://www.nelsap.org/ny/ny.html


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## skidbump (Sep 26, 2008)

Now, now ,now ,play nice before they shut down the thread.He owns nothing here but his logon id
.On a sadder note many of the guys i skied with everyday were against the expansion and we warned them that this may happen if pushed to hard.

Actually i believe he owns http://www.huntermtn.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1
a hunter forum...


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 26, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Talked to someone with ties to Minnewaska and he said they laid off 15 people AFTER letting go normal seasonal employees.



That sucks.  I was up there on Tuesday.  The place is incredible.
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/bo...2&t=7024&sid=db52aeafa12db0218c033fdd63ed1c1e


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

faceplant said:


> at the risk of being called a lyin smokejumper by somebody who feels they own this forum, i got a right to speak same as everybody. The way i see it is this-when the monster killed the little girl nobody cared that dr frankenstein said he really didnt know what was gonna go down when he loosed the thing upon the world. The mob didnt care, they just wanted somebodys head on a stick. Right now theres another monster out there reakin havoc upon my world and greene county put it out there, them and the lobbyists. For them to say they really didn't want this or that just misses the point. Damage is done. Have a look at the saddest website in the world-i pray another one dont get added to it this year...http://www.nelsap.org/ny/ny.html



waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Now, now ,now ,play nice before they shut down the thread.He owns nothing here but his logon id
> .On a sadder note many of the guys i skied with everyday were against the expansion and we warned them that this may happen if pushed to hard.
> 
> Actually i believe he owns http://www.huntermtn.net/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1
> a hunter forum...



I do...


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

James Michaud said:


> That sucks.  I was up there on Tuesday.  The place is incredible.
> http://www.firsttracksonline.com/bo...2&t=7024&sid=db52aeafa12db0218c033fdd63ed1c1e



it is awesome....


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> Just seems weird that some people want Belleayre to close.  Don't get it.  More ski areas bring more skiers to the region, which _benefits_ Hunter....




COMEBMPUDDLES....

NOBODY WANTS BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!
We all recognize that business begats business...  
I am totally down with that...


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Sep 26, 2008)

dmc said:


> COMEBMPUDDLES....
> 
> NOBODY WANTS BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!
> We all recognize that business begats business...
> I am totally down with that...





Sorry, dmc.  I had deleted my post after giving it further thought....I meant it in total jest to drive you a little crazy (I noticed your signature line), but realized afterwards it wasn't very funny.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 26, 2008)

Hi comepuddles..


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## SkiDork (Sep 26, 2008)

lotsa words....   Too much for my head....


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## k2 four (Sep 26, 2008)

*19 days*

If it closes where will you ski? 

If it partially opens who will stay / go? 

These would be the interesting questions and could begin to shed light on the possible economic devastation the area would endure. 

Lets just say the mountain partially opens this season and loses 2/3s of its usual crowd. Now lets asume that the mountain will open fully for the 09- 10. How many will return? My guess is that it will take some time to rebuild the visit numbers. How much will that cost?

I'm not sure our race program could operate with 1/3 of the hill open; I have heard that only Super Cheif will run with only trails to the east of Wanatuska for the upper mountain and only 2 trails for the lower area.

Just bitching


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## Method9455 (Sep 26, 2008)

Sadly, the answer is that even if it all worked out perfectly tomorrow it is likely their season will be irreparably damaged.

Last season my girlfriend and I had season passes and we stopped for food every time on the way back from the mountain. I put in about 5 days at Belleayre, she put in a lot more since she lives up there (though I don't know how many). Because of everything that has happened we didn't buy passes this year. 

Windham is a bit too far I think, far enough that we aren't going to buy passes until we do the drive once anyway. Hunter is close enough but we're not sure if we want to go there on weekends. 

Our solution is to buy the big lift card from Hunter ($39 each, 50% weekdays, 25% off weekends) and try going up to Windham and Hunter buying daily lift tickets. If Belleayre is operational we will go there as well. Because we will be buying daily tickets we will go less often, which means less $ in the town. Plus buying tickets we will probably stay longer per day which means we might eat on the mountain so $0 in town. 

Not exactly a great thing for any of the economies up there.


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 26, 2008)

Last year, didn't Hunter and Windham have some deal where you bought three or five days in advance that could be used at both hills for, like, $30/day?


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## dmc (Sep 26, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> Plus buying tickets we will probably stay longer per day which means we might eat on the mountain so $0 in town.
> 
> Not exactly a great thing for any of the economies up there.




Whats the diff?
If your spending you $ in Hunter - Windham or Plattekill?

It's still good for the Catskill economy...


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 26, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> Sadly, the answer is that even if it all worked out perfectly tomorrow it is likely their season will be irreparably damaged.
> 
> Last season my girlfriend and I had season passes and we stopped for food every time on the way back from the mountain. I put in about 5 days at Belleayre, she put in a lot more since she lives up there (though I don't know how many). Because of everything that has happened we didn't buy passes this year.
> 
> ...



Hunter and Windham are about the same distance as Belleayre since they are closer to 87..


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## thinnmann (Sep 26, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> Sadly, the answer is that even if it all worked out perfectly tomorrow it is likely their season will be irreparably damaged.



SADLY, probably 98% of the 5 or less day skiers of Belleayre are not even aware of this!  SADLY, probably 80% of the 15 plus day skiers of Belleayre are not even aware of this!

Not everybody is into it as much as we are (thankfully, because the slopes would be too crowded).  But if they were, maybe there would be more pressure for it to be worked out in favor of Bellayre.

I was in a ski shop last weekend leasing my daughter's ski boots for the winter, and they had no idea Belleayre was in serious straits.  You would think people in the industry would have a clue.

So what I am thinking, is that even if it did work out perfectly tomorrow, those people will still show up.  Usually the last day to buy season tickets at lower rates for Bell had been November 30.  Maybe they will actually have pricing and programs posted by then.

In an email from a BMRA coach, he said to make sure to come to the dry land training on October 25, because "we should know more by then."


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## millerm277 (Sep 26, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I was in a ski shop last weekend leasing my daughter's ski boots for the winter, and they had no idea Belleayre was in serious straits.  You would think people in the industry would have a clue.



I've seen this here and on SJ, and a couple internet news headlines. Unless you follow ski forums, or the local papers for NYS closely, I don't think you would have heard about it.


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## ecc (Sep 27, 2008)

*Speaking of $$*

I've oft read that the median annual _household_ income in Ulster county (where I live) is 40k. This does not lend itself to $60 lift tickets. It's unfortunate that the only way many locals can afford to go skiing is by gov. subsidies - or area freebies. I've enjoyed a few at Windham too. (I admit I'm not good enough to enjoy Hunter ;-)).
ecc


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## dmc (Sep 27, 2008)

i gotta be honest...  this whole thing is starting to sound like "chicken little"....

"The sky is falling!"


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## legalskier (Sep 27, 2008)

*ORDA Projects and Activities*

*Despite Fall Colors, ORDA Projects and Activities Indicate Winter is Not Far Away*
Sep 26, 2008 - 10:10 AM	By AlpineZone News

_LAKE PLACID, New York -- The calendar still says September and the Lake Placid area has another three to four weeks to enjoy fall foliage. But Whiteface and Gore mountains and the Olympic Sports Complex in Lake Placid, all managed by the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA), already have winter on their minds.

Gore Mountain in North Creek will install a high speed quad chairlift on Wednesday, Oct. 1, to service the Burnt Ridge section, set to open in December.

The following day, Thursday, Oct. 2, Whiteface Mountain, 10 miles from Lake Placid in Wilmington, will follow suit when 16 towers will be inserted to hoist a fixed grip triple chair servicing Lookout Mountain. This new area will also open to the public in December, and can be accessed from the Face Lift High Speed Quad Chair and the Easy Street trail.

Visitors and residents in those areas will see helicopters circling Gore and Whiteface throughout the day. Installations will begin in the morning, weather permitting.

Later in the winter, Whiteface will host World Cup freestyle skiing with ski cross qualifications on Jan. 18 and the finals on Jan. 19. The North American Alpine Championships return to the Olympic Mountain March 10-15._

Besides a class action, has anyone given any thought to transferring jurisdiction over Belleayre from the D.E.C. to O.R.D.A.? It could never be accomplished in time for this season, but long-term it might be worthwhile looking into. From this article it seems O.R.D.A. is awash in cash, a situation that is severely anomalous with Belleayre's predicament. Why has the pain not been spread evenly throughout the state budget?


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## MarkC (Sep 27, 2008)

legalskier said:


> *Despite Fall Colors, ORDA Projects and Activities Indicate Winter is Not Far Away*
> Sep 26, 2008 - 10:10 AM	By AlpineZone News
> 
> _LAKE PLACID, New York -- The calendar still says September and the Lake Placid area has another three to four weeks to enjoy fall foliage. But Whiteface and Gore mountains and the Olympic Sports Complex in Lake Placid, all managed by the Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA), already have winter on their minds.
> ...



O.R.D.A. Does not want Belleayre.  Back in the mid 80's that was considered. After evaluation, ORDA deemed that Belleayre offers no Olympic value.  

Relax Belleayre is not going to close.  Yes the budget may be cut a million or three but that is the same level that it was at 3 years ago.  Every other Catskill resort will be operating on a decreased budget this year.  Do not believe the  BS you hear in the paper from the people that are afraid of loosing their comped season and private parking spots in front of the Longhourse Lodge.  The bottom line is Belleayre is a state park that like every other state park in New York, will operate on a limited budget while the state sorts out their economic crisis.


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## legalskier (Sep 27, 2008)

It's understandable that O.R.D.A. would not want to bring in another area--who really wants to "share the wealth?" But shouldn't such a decision rest with a higher authority, one that oversees the entire state budget? This would provide a better perspective than that of one agency trying to protect its turf. Further, if Belleayre offers no "Olympic value," how does Gore? It's a wonderful mountain for blue cruisers, but the only thing really challenging I've seen is Rumours. Whiteface appears to be first rate, at least the part I was able to see while looking up the mountain. For the two days I was there last season, only the bunny hill was open, then up to mid for a total of three hours. They still were charging full price though; perhaps this accounts for their surplus of cash this year?


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## thinnmann (Sep 27, 2008)

legalskier said:


> From this article it seems O.R.D.A. is awash in cash, a situation that is severely anomalous with Belleayre's predicament. Why has the pain not been spread evenly throughout the state budget?



O.R.D.A. had to borrow $9.2 million to finish projects:

http://www.lakeplacidnews.com/page/content.detail/id/500462.html?nav=5005

snip---->>>
_
While some board members questioned the wisdom of adding to ORDA’s long-term debt, others saw it as a necessary step to keep the tourism dollars coming.....

ORDA has been given a directive from Gov. Paterson to trim its budget another 7 percent on top of the 3.35 percent it cut in May. This brings the total amount ORDA needs to save to more than $900,000. ORDA officials do not yet know what form those cuts will take.​_


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 27, 2008)

*Has Anyone Read This?*

If this went through, the western Catskills wouldn't even need ski-based tourism to save its economy.  But given the fortunes that could be made on one hand and the proximity to NYC reservoirs on the other, this would make the fight surrounding the Belleyare Resort look like small potatoes.  

It's a long article, but stick with it:
http://nymag.com/news/features/50502/


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## Geoff (Sep 27, 2008)

Can somebody explain to my why Belleayre can't run cash flow positive?  Everybody else can and a state-owned ski area has no property taxes to pay, no loans to pay off, and probably has much lower costs for things like liability insurance.  You have labor costs to run the mountain and energy costs to make snow and spin the lifts.  With the proximity to metro-NYC, you'd think they would have no problem keeping the ski area full.


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## ed-drum (Sep 27, 2008)

Maybe it's like I've stated before. They put in a fixed slow quad then tear it down and put in a high speed detachable a few years later. Why didn't they put in the detachable in the first place? DUH!!!!!


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## Method9455 (Sep 27, 2008)

dmc said:


> Whats the diff?
> If your spending you $ in Hunter - Windham or Plattekill?
> 
> It's still good for the Catskill economy...



Doesn't help the people on the access road to Belleayre if we're not there does it? The "Catskills economy" is a nice generalization but these are different people. Otherwise the county wouldn't be fighting the state so hard over this.

But my primary point is that since we don't have season passes now, we will be spending considerably less time ANYWHERE in the catskills. When the marginal cost to go skiing is $0 for the lift ticket and $30 for food and gas, we go a lot. When the marginal cost is $100 for tickets and $30 for food and gas, we are not going to go very much. 

And I just can't see myself getting a Hunter season pass because we mostly go on the weekends and that place sucks on the weekends.


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## MarkC (Sep 27, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> Doesn't help the people on the access road to Belleayre if we're not there does it? The "Catskills economy" is a nice generalization but these are different people. Otherwise the county wouldn't be fighting the state so hard over this.
> 
> But my primary point is that since we don't have season passes now, we will be spending considerably less time ANYWHERE in the catskills. When the marginal cost to go skiing is $0 for the lift ticket and $30 for food and gas, we go a lot. When the marginal cost is $100 for tickets and $30 for food and gas, we are not going to go very much.
> 
> And I just can't see myself getting a Hunter season pass because we mostly go on the weekends and that place sucks on the weekends.



Who ever said that Belleayre was not going to offer season passes?


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## skidbump (Sep 27, 2008)

So far only info is being leaked and it says 1 lift 12 trails no programs being offered.Are you gonna go there?


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## MarkC (Sep 27, 2008)

You may want to reevaluate the source of that information leak.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Sep 27, 2008)

legalskier said:


> It's understandable that O.R.D.A. would not want to bring in another area--who really wants to "share the wealth?" But shouldn't such a decision rest with a higher authority, one that oversees the entire state budget? This would provide a better perspective than that of one agency trying to protect its turf. *Further, if Belleayre offers no "Olympic value," how does Gore? *It's a wonderful mountain for blue cruisers, but the only thing really challenging I've seen is Rumours. Whiteface appears to be first rate, at least the part I was able to see while looking up the mountain. For the two days I was there last season, only the bunny hill was open, then up to mid for a total of three hours. They still were charging full price though; perhaps this accounts for their surplus of cash this year?



Gore was added to the ORDA mix in 1984, but other then proximity I’m not sure way. Both Gore and WF prospered under it’s supervision especially during the years George Pataki was governor.


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## catskills (Sep 27, 2008)

James Michaud said:


> If this went through, the western Catskills wouldn't even need ski-based tourism to save its economy.  But given the fortunes that could be made on one hand and the proximity to NYC reservoirs on the other, this would make the fight surrounding the Belleyare Resort look like small potatoes.
> 
> It's a long article, but stick with it:
> http://nymag.com/news/features/50502/


Thanks for posting James. This is a very interesting article.  Politics works in ways us mortals are oblivious to.  Who ever said natural gas is clean energy.  :blink: Belleayre may be the least of our worries in a few years.  One note is that the Catskills is the water shed for NYC Water supply.  Does NYC want clean healthy water or energy from Catskills natural gas.  Time will tell. 


> The water for blasting open the shale and freeing the gas is treated with chemicals, to help break up the stone, and mixed with sand, to hold open the newly created fissures. *Exactly which chemicals are used is not publicly known. The recipe was pioneered by Halliburton. The company considers the formula to be a trade secret and guards it like Kentucky Fried Chicken guards its batter recipe*. One large independent study of fraced wells in the West, by the environmental scientist Theo Colborn, *identified over 400 chemical toxins in contaminated groundwater and soil, including the carcinogens ethylbenzene, chromium, and arsenic.*
> 
> No prosecutions were brought. I was astonished to learn that the Energy Policy Act of 2005, passed by Congress in part to reduce dependence on foreign energy, specifically exempts oil and gas companies from major environmental-protection laws. These include the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Clean Water Act.


Isn't arsenic one of those nasty elements that enters the body and never leaves?  If you get enough of it you die.


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## dmc (Sep 27, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> And I just can't see myself getting a Hunter season pass because we mostly go on the weekends and that place sucks on the weekends.



I could show you picture after picture of an not so crowded Hunter on the weekends...


Hunter ROCKS!


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## millerm277 (Sep 27, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> And I just can't see myself getting a Hunter season pass because we mostly go on the weekends and that place sucks on the weekends.



Not the past couple years....unless I only go on the weekends that it's empty somehow.


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## dmc (Sep 27, 2008)

millerm277 said:


> Not the past couple years....unless I only go on the weekends that it's empty somehow.



From what i was hearing and seeing last season Belleayre was more crowded then Hunter at times...

Holiday weekends were crowded...  But it's that way everywhere... But still not so crowded it was any issue...

It's just so lame to blast a ski area like that...  It's just more of the same from the newer Belleayre proponents...  Make Belleayre look good by blasting Hunter...   Great...  

Sounds like you really care about the Catskills..  

I find this debate from the new guys so disingenuous...


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## RichT (Sep 28, 2008)

*Dmc!!!!*

DON'T BELEVE DMC! HUNTER IS PACKED EVERY WEEKEND, AND MOST WEEK DAYS TOO!!


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## RichT (Sep 28, 2008)

I don't want Belleayre to close either!!


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## andrec10 (Sep 28, 2008)

Are you calling DMC a lier! :argue:The last several seasons. Windham and Belleayre are more crowded on most weekends than Hunter...


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## 4aprice (Sep 28, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Both Gore and WF prospered under it’s supervision especially during the years George Pataki was governor.



I think Belleayre did well under Pataki too.  Pataki is a pretty avid skier.  I don't think David Paterson ski's at all.  From what I understand his eye sight pretty poor.  May be a new day for all 3 areas.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 28, 2008)

4aprice said:


> I don't think David Paterson ski's at all.  From what I understand his eye sight pretty poor.



legally blind = poor eyesight


----------



## faceplant (Sep 28, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> SADLY, probably 98% of the 5 or less day skiers of Belleayre are not even aware of this!  SADLY, probably 80% of the 15 plus day skiers of Belleayre are not even aware of this! Not everybody is into it as much as we are (thankfully, because the slopes would be too crowded).  But if they were, maybe there would be more pressure for it to be worked out in favor of Bellayre. I was in a ski shop last weekend leasing my daughter's ski boots for the winter, and they had no idea Belleayre was in serious straits.  You would think people in the industry would have a clue.
> 
> Good point thinnmann--word aint out far enough yet. Friend tells me Jersey was gonna shut parks down behind a budget crunch last year but when the people found out they went up in arms. State backed it off. When it starts gettin colder and equipment comes outta storage the people will learn whats being done to them......   But will it be to late then?


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## andrec10 (Sep 28, 2008)

Gov. Patterson is Blind in more ways than one! We would be better off with Spitzer, too bad he lied.


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## curlyfuzzie (Sep 28, 2008)

hmmmm, just wandering back into the ski forums as the weather begins to cool...
*WHAT!* Belleayre's shutting down!!!!??? (Reads thread...)
Geeze, just when I was in a position to consider a season pass...

I'm very confused at how they're going about this... Cancelling a money-making festival because of a budget shortfall? How does that work?

The area around Belleayre really is pitiful... closing or limiting operations at Belleayre would just be another nail in the coffin, IMHO. As an avid motorcyclist, I frequent the area in the warm months as well as winter, and all of the little businesses in the surrounding communities need all the customers they can get! It's a beautiful area, but my parents who live on Long Island (who are in their 70's and still ski) stopped going to Belleayre because the nearby (affordable) motels had gotten so seedy. They now go to Jiminy. 

I'm also wondering why, of the three state-run areas, Belleayre's the one getting kicked in the nuts? Could it be that Whiteface and Gore are on the (off-the-budget) Olympic Regional Development Authority's juristiction, while poor Belleayre is run by a regular state department (DEC)? Just another example of crooked bookkeeping. 

Hey! :idea:How about turning Belleayre over to the ORDA and propose it as a venue for the next sought Olympics? Wouldn't it be cool to see another "Lake Placid" in the Catskills? Of course, the environmentalists would never stand for that... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




*sigh* Rant over... Carry on...


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## dmc (Sep 28, 2008)

RichT said:


> DON'T BELEVE DMC! HUNTER IS PACKED EVERY WEEKEND, AND MOST WEEK DAYS TOO!!



Funny...  Love it... 

But there's plenty of room for Belleayre "fugees"


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## dmc (Sep 28, 2008)

andrec10 said:


> Are you calling DMC a lier! :argue:The last several seasons. Windham and Belleayre are more crowded on most weekends than Hunter...



i can only speak to last season...


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## Moe Ghoul (Sep 28, 2008)

Sounds like real estate might be a decent deal up there the way you locals are describing the economy up there. Any nice small farms for sale?


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## Bandit2941 (Sep 28, 2008)

OK, the Belleayre vs Hunter & Windham stuff has to stop on this thread. The budget cuts have NOTHING to do with Hunter, Windham or the lobbyists. The problems Belleayre is facing has to do with the overall state budget and the cuts that are being done. Most all state agencies are doing these cutbacks, do you guys read the articles in the paper next to the Belleayre ones? 

State Police Troop F is losing 31 troopers.
Minnewaska State Park laid off 15 people that usually work through the winter, cut pay on remaining staffers and dropped them to 3 days a week!
SUNY New Paltz might have to raise tuition due to state-aid cuts from the budget. All SUNY schools are facing cuts.
The Department of Corrections faces a $168 million cut.
Health services (Medicaid etc) are being cut.

The list goes on and on. The state is cutting the $122 billion budget by $427 million, then slashing another billion next year. This issue goes much deeper than Belleayre vs Greene county and such. Times are getting very tough out there and things aren't looking like they're going to get better soon.

If we want the best shot at keeping a normal season at Belleayre this year we need to stop the time spent bickering here and continue to write those letters and ring those phone numbers.

End rant.


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## skidbump (Sep 28, 2008)

Wow if you look at it that way why didnt Bush bail out the whole state instead of a couple busines's that failed.


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## thinnmann (Sep 28, 2008)

Bandit2941 said:


> OK, the Belleayre vs Hunter & Windham stuff has to stop on this thread. The budget cuts have NOTHING to do with Hunter, Windham or the lobbyists. ....
> 
> If we want the best shot at keeping a normal season at Belleayre this year we need to stop the time spent bickering here and continue to write those letters and ring those phone numbers.



Bandit is right, the letters and the phone calls are most important.  Especially for your folks that live in NY.

But the lobbyists sure didn't _help _the situation.....  And that A vs. B = DMC stuff is really fun.  What else would he do all day without us?...



4aprice said:


> I think Belleayre did well under Pataki too.  Pataki is a pretty avid skier.  I don't think David Paterson ski's at all.  From what I understand his eye sight pretty poor.  May be a new day for all 3 areas.



Patterson might ski, ironically, if the new state funded adaptive ski center at Belleayre manages to be open this winter....  He is an athletic guy despite being legally blind.  For example, he ran the Boilermaker 15K - the first governor to ever do so.


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## dmc (Sep 28, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Bandit is right, the letters and the phone calls are most important.  Especially for your folks that live in NY.
> 
> But the lobbyists sure didn't _help _the situation.....  And that A vs. B = DMC stuff is really fun.  What else would he do all day without us?...



I encourage everyone in NJ to express their opinions to my State Government..    Why not...  It may go to the "Jersey" bin.. But who knows.. 




thinnmann said:


> Patterson might ski, ironically, if the new state funded adaptive ski center at Belleayre manages to be open this winter....  He is an athletic guy despite being legally blind.  For example, he ran the Boilermaker 15K - the first governor to ever do so.



I was reading my local paper this morning...  Read something about that...  Thought it was ironic as well..


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## RichT (Sep 28, 2008)

Keep Hunter's secret a secret!:smash: It's way way to crowded on any day.


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## millerm277 (Sep 28, 2008)

RichT said:


> Keep Hunter's secret a secret!:smash: It's way way to crowded on any day.



Yeah, but I'd like to see that expansion happen at some point before 2020.


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## legalskier (Sep 28, 2008)

Without inciting a heated exchange regarding the merits of the resort or encouraging any more conspiracy theories, does anyone think it's curious that nothing has been heard from Mr. Gitter since news started leaking about possible budget cuts? He obviously has a crucial interest in all of this, yet the silence has been deafening. Has anyone heard anything reliable about how he has responded, if at all? Please friends, "only the facts..."


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

legalskier said:


> Without inciting a heated exchange regarding the merits of the resort or encouraging any more conspiracy theories, does anyone think it's curious that nothing has been heard from Mr. Gitter since news started leaking about possible budget cuts? He obviously has a crucial interest in all of this, yet the silence has been deafening. Has anyone heard anything reliable about how he has responded, if at all? Please friends, "only the facts..."



I would ask the same about Tony Lanza


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## ed-drum (Sep 29, 2008)

"He's (Tony Lanza) on his way out, but that's another story." Orville Slutsky.  Woodstock Times article when Hunter built the learning center.


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## jamesdeluxe (Sep 29, 2008)

dmc said:


> I would ask the same about Tony Lanza



Please... you know better than anyone that because of the whole state/DEC stewardship deal with Belleayre, he (understandably) can't have his personal opinion about anything remotely controversial going into print.  It's always been like that.


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## skidbump (Sep 29, 2008)

From the Phoenicia Times

Support For Belleayre? 

This is the latest ripple effect from news two weeks ago that Belleayre faces State Department of Environmental Conservation cuts. While no specific figures have been released, staffers and local officials have heard of 181 job cuts, less trails and less chair lifts. Amenities such as the ski school and the nursery, which is a form of day care for infants while moms and dads hit the slopes of the family based facility, are also slated for closure and/or severely scaled back operation.
At a meeting of the Belleayre Region Lodging and Tourism Association at Belleayre’s main lodge last week, Republican Senator John Bonacic, who represents the region, told the Association’s anxious ranks that he is working with DEC to ensure that Belleayre remains the “economic engine” of the Route 28 corridor.
Toward that end, Bonacic said that he has asked DEC Commissioner Pete Grannis to come see for himself what would happen if Belleayre is allowed to fail.
Never mind that Grannis was already set to come for the annual Open Government Day put on by the Catskill Watershed Corporation… or that all matters raised as fears at the Association meeting, as well as a pro-Belleayre rally organized by the Coalition for Belleayre on September 13, have simply been matters either raised in ongoing budget decisions, or raised as things that MIGHT have been discussed.
At present, the timeline for any decisions about the ski center’s budget remain unclear, especially given the news that Gov. David Paterson is warning he may need to call the state Legislature back into session before Election Day to make further cuts to the state budget amid growing troubles on Wall Street. The Governor is expected to make that decision by the end of this week.
Meanwhile Belleayre’s plight has caught the attention of United States Senator Charles Schumer. In a prepared statement released last week, Schumer said the ski center is bursting with economic benefits for Ulster County and cannot be allowed to fall to the wayside.
“I hope that the DEC will heed the community’s call and commit to a full ski season at Belleayre so that we can keep the jobs and revenue generated by the ski mountain,” Schumer wrote. “It would be a severe blow to the region should the ski center not operate for a complete season….the benefits that would be achieved by cutting operating costs at Belleayre Mountain would pale in comparison to the economic turmoil it would create in the region. I cannot overstate the significance that Belleayre Mountain Ski Center has on the local economy.”
And even though the possibility of Belleayre cuts have brought together supporters of the proposed Belleayre Resort with the Catskill Heritage Association and Save The Mountain, members of the Belleayre Region Lodging Tourism Association are now talking about the need to swell their own ranks in order to have a stronger voice in Albany whenever their livelihood is in peril.
Stay tuned for some real news in the coming month… we hope. And then the 2009 budget talks, set to kick off in January… and make those of the past year look like largesse.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## skidbump (Sep 29, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> "He's (Tony Lanza) on his way out, but that's another story." Orville Slutsky.  Woodstock Times article when Hunter built the learning center.



Do Tell


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## skidbump (Sep 29, 2008)

EDITORIAL from Phoenicia Times
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear DEC:
 Be Clear About Belleayre
In 1947, New York’s legislature amended our constitution to permit the construction of the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center. It was a project that embodied extraordinary vision and by any objective measure has been quite a success story. Amongst those successes was the creation of a Catskill Mountain ski industry. Together with the private investment that followed at Hunter and Windham Mountains, as well as other mountains around the region, that industry has served as a critically important component of our regional economy since its inception.
To all those whose vision, hard work, and investment built that industry, we give thanks. You created wonderful recreational facilities public and private, provided hugely significant employment opportunities for our region, and contributed enormously to the second-home and other development which has long supported our modest rural tax base.
And like most people in our region, we believe Belleayre’s continued survival is a critically important part of our future. We applaud the efforts of the many individuals and all the local groups, from the Coalition to Save Belleayre to the Catskill Heritage Alliance, who are currently seeking to protect our local treasure and ensure its future well-being. That future is, without question, closely tied to the well being of many of us here. 
We don’t know what the future holds for Belleayre. Key decisions, by and large, will be made elsewhere and by those whose direct personal impact from their decisions will be limited by distance. So we share deep concerns when we see - as we all have lately – potential major impacts to the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center’s operating budget as an apparent result of our State’s deepening fiscal problems. Whether such across-the-board statewide cuts are temporary or not remains to be seen. And it’s very difficult to criticize such moves when comparing them to comparable cuts in other areas of state funding in, say, public health or safety or education. 
All we know is that, as with all cuts, it is essential that advocate for our interests. Although we are troubled by some recent developments involving intra-county and municipality feuding that arises when times get tough. 
Back when Ulster County majority leader David Donaldson called for a boycott of Hunter and Windham ski areas based on Greene County’s support for a commission to review competitive issues between public and privately owned ski areas, we thought his actions to be among the more irresponsible things any local public official had done in a while… although, in the end, the issue was rendered moot via gubernatorial veto.
We believe that unilateral calls for economic warfare between neighbors is beyond the pale of appropriate conduct, inherently hurtful, and something to be avoided at all costs.
Along those lines, we question the recent actions of Shandaken councilman Rob Stanley when he threatened to hold directly competitive events if Belleayre’s annual Octoberfest was relocated off the mountain to Arkville, which indeed it has been. Given the nature of drawing audiences to these hills, such action could prove disastrous for all parties… and send the wrong message to would-be tourists.
Imagine making plans to visit someplace for a vacation, or even a day trip, only to find that you’re entering some sort of Hatfield and McCoy battleground.
We do appreciate the need to advocate for our own interests, but cool heads are need to sort out how.
The uncertainty of what lies ahead for Belleayre remains subject to plans, evolving and still under review, for a major private-public partnership involving both the Ski Center and the proposed Belleayre Resort project. We applaud DEC’s decision of last year to move forward on that review as the single integrated project which it is, in compliance with state law.
But we also worry that continuing confusion about what those cuts really are, and what’s being touted as possible as a means of rallying the local community, may end up muddying already muddy waters as to the ski center’s future.
We understand that the rocky shoals we’ve entered with our entire national economy makes sorting this stuff out more difficult, especially given our state’s reliance on Wall Street and the financial industry as such a key player in all our economic lives. But the sooner we can start getting a sense of what’s being talked about, be it capital, operating, or advertising dollars, the better we can all plan for our own futures. 
The same goes for various city programs in the region… are deep cuts to DEP programs planned? Will they include capital projects?
We’ve entered our budgeting season with loads of trepidation and in addition to hoping that all those programs that benefit us stay healthy, especially at Belleayre, we ask for as much openness about what’s being discussed… so we can make plans to.
After all, you know where we stand about transparency of process and laying your budget cards on the table. Which is half the deal.
BP/PS


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## k2 four (Sep 29, 2008)

andrec10 said:


> Gov. Patterson is Blind in more ways than one! We would be better off with Spitzer, too bad he lied.



At least Spitzer's call girl was hot.
Spitzer rocked.


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

k2 four said:


> At least Spitzer's call girl was hot.
> Spitzer rocked.




Yeah... Our ex-Governor got way hotter "tail" then your ex-Governor...


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## k2 four (Sep 29, 2008)

dmc said:


> Yeah... Our ex-Governor got way hotter "tail" then your ex-Governor...



Ah, come-on, Golan was such a catch.


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## Warp Daddy (Sep 29, 2008)

This am's news NYS structural deficit in NEXT yrs budget is now  estimated at  SEVEN BILLION dollars. Patterson will be calling in the elected bozos( legislators) to CUT the BUDGET again THIS week or next -- it's getting MUCH worse as we speaK


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## Mapnut (Sep 29, 2008)

What would it take for Belleayre to operate at a profit?  So that even with budget deficit, the State is better off with Belleayre than without it? I guess we have to assume that we don't know Belleayre's actual numbers, i.e. how big a deficit it operates under.  But let's assume that a lot of ski areas do make a profit, if only a small one.  Could Belleayre be profitable if they did a little more marketing, a little less snowmaking, and eliminated most of the giveaways?


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## Warp Daddy (Sep 29, 2008)

Mapnut said:


> What would it take for Belleayre to operate at a profit?  So that even with budget deficit, the State is better off with Belleayre than without it? I guess we have to assume that we don't know Belleayre's actual numbers, i.e. how big a deficit it operates under.  But let's assume that a lot of ski areas do make a profit, if only a small one.  Could Belleayre be profitable if they did a little more marketing, a little less snowmaking, and eliminated most of the giveaways?



 I'm probably wrong, but there is a larger issue at hand . NYS's $$$ problem is so deep that MANY VITAL  service sectors  like Healthcare and education and even the  "AID to Localities" portion of the STATE budget ( Which i never saw take a whack) in my 35 yrs of state service ARE ALL going to get HIT and hit HARD .

It may come down to WHICH sectors have THE NUMBERS in terms of CONSTITUENT impact and whose PAIN is proportionately MORE important, thus politically more important .

I love skiing, BUT it is a discretionary activity, not a Vital activity as far as PUBLIC support -- just sayin


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

Mapnut said:


> What would it take for Belleayre to operate at a profit?  So that even with budget deficit, the State is better off with Belleayre than without it? I guess we have to assume that we don't know Belleayre's actual numbers, i.e. how big a deficit it operates under.  But let's assume that a lot of ski areas do make a profit, if only a small one.  Could Belleayre be profitable if they did a little more marketing, a little less snowmaking, and eliminated most of the giveaways?





Ding ding ding....  Operate at a profit(or enough to pay the bills in bad times) - just like every other ski area has to do...  Thats balance...  Between the facility, local areas and my tax $$...

MARKETING?...  they put signs up on 32 - the way to Hunter and Windham..


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## catskills (Sep 29, 2008)

I predict 10,000 views on this thread on Oct 8 at 8:34pm.  Give or take .......

This thread could be the best advertisement media blitz ever planned for Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham.    Its not hurting AZ hit rate either.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 29, 2008)

catskills said:


> I predict 10,000 views on this thread on Oct 8 at 8:34pm.  Give or take .......
> 
> This thread could be the best advertisement media blitz ever planned for Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham.    Its not hurting AZ hit rate either.



Like 100 of those views are me..lol..I'm at the point where I don't care so much..whatever happens..happens..it's out of my control and with or without Belleayre..my ski season will be mad steezy..


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

catskills said:


> I predict 10,000 views on this thread on Oct 8 at 8:34pm.  Give or take .......
> 
> This thread could be the best advertisement media blitz ever planned for Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham.    Its not hurting AZ hit rate either.



Debate is a good thing...


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## thinnmann (Sep 29, 2008)

From _Daily Freeman:

Tuesday we'll have reaction from Hunter Mountain and Windham to a proposal for a regional ski pass that incorporates Belleayre Mountain and ends the intercounty war over ski areas. Correspondent Jay Braman Jr. has been following this story.​_
Maybe the "intercounty war" will land us with something many people have wanted for a long time?...  Unless H & W's reaction is a big negatory, good buddy....

... go DMC ...


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> From _Daily Freeman:
> 
> Tuesday we'll have reaction from Hunter Mountain and Windham to a proposal for a regional ski pass that incorporates Belleayre Mountain and ends the intercounty war over ski areas. Correspondent Jay Braman Jr. has been following this story.​_
> Maybe the "intercounty war" will land us with something many people have wanted for a long time?...  Unless H & W's reaction is a big negatory, good buddy....
> ...



That would be sweet...


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## hardline (Sep 29, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> From _Daily Freeman:
> 
> Tuesday we'll have reaction from Hunter Mountain and Windham to a proposal for a regional ski pass that incorporates Belleayre Mountain and ends the intercounty war over ski areas. Correspondent Jay Braman Jr. has been following this story.​_
> Maybe the "intercounty war" will land us with something many people have wanted for a long time?...  Unless H & W's reaction is a big negatory, good buddy....
> ...



a catskilzz pass would drive alot biz to the region. i think a lot of people might actually get that and stay further south than going the rest of the way to vt.


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

hardline said:


> a catskilzz pass would drive alot biz to the region. i think a lot of people might actually get that and stay further south than going the rest of the way to vt.



Yeah and think of all the "in between" areas businesses...

Stay in Hunter - stop into the sandwich joint on the way to Belleayre - and visa versa... 
It's a good thing...


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## thinnmann (Sep 29, 2008)

catskills said:


> I predict 10,000 views on this thread on Oct 8 at 8:34pm.  Give or take .......
> 
> This thread could be the best advertisement media blitz ever planned for Belleayre, Hunter, Plattekill, and Windham.    Its not hurting AZ hit rate either.



Sorting this forum by number of replies and views, this thread is urrently ranked 8th in number of replies, 20th in number of views.

I best update my blog sometime soon...........


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Sorting this forum by number of replies and views, this thread is urrently ranked 8th in number of replies, 20th in number of views.
> 
> I best update my blog sometime soon...........



It's generally been a good discussion...  Informative...


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## highpeaksdrifter (Sep 29, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Sorting this forum by number of replies and views, this thread is urrently ranked 8th in number of replies, 20th in number of views.
> 
> I best update my blog sometime soon...........





dmc said:


> It's generally been a good discussion...  Informative...



It is very interesting reading even for someone like myself who doesn't ski at Belleyre.


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## hardline (Sep 29, 2008)

dmc said:


> Yeah and think of all the "in between" areas businesses...
> 
> Stay in Hunter - stop into the sandwich joint on the way to Belleayre - and visa versa...
> It's a good thing...



people would do one area on friday one on sat and the last on sunday. there would be some great movement on the roads between the areas. now since windam and hunter are private i wonder if they actually care about the surounding area. i could see upper managment being a bit myopic.


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## millerm277 (Sep 29, 2008)

hardline said:


> people would do one area on friday one on sat and the last on sunday. there would be some great movement on the roads between the areas. now since windam and hunter are private i wonder if they actually care about the surounding area. i could see upper managment being a bit myopic.



Sure, they care. If the surrounding area looks horrible, and there's nothing open in the town, it reflects badly on the ski area, and leaves visitors with less to do. (Bored visitors=not returning)  So "caring", at least somewhat, would make sense.


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## hardline (Sep 29, 2008)

millerm277 said:


> Sure, they care. If the surrounding area looks horrible, and there's nothing open in the town, it reflects badly on the ski area, and leaves visitors with less to do. (Bored visitors=not returning)  So "caring", at least somewhat, would make sense.



i meant the catskills region not the area immediate to the ski hill. it would nake sense but sometimes egos get involved and clouds judgment.


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## dmc (Sep 29, 2008)

hardline said:


> people would do one area on friday one on sat and the last on sunday. there would be some great movement on the roads between the areas. now since windam and hunter are private i wonder if they actually care about the surounding area. i could see upper managment being a bit myopic.



I think Hunter cares about the surrounding area... To a degree...  They(Slutsky family) are involved in the community(hunter Foundation, etc...)

I see volunteers from Hunter cleaning the highway...


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## hardline (Sep 29, 2008)

dmc said:


> I think Hunter cares about the surrounding area... To a degree...  They(Slutsky family) are involved in the community(hunter Foundation, etc...)
> 
> I see volunteers from Hunter cleaning the highway...



i hope they do. i guess we will just have to see how this lands. a pass like this might convince we to get a small house in the area. MC on work days, cats on the days i dont have to be in the office/site and vt on powder days.


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## catskills (Sep 29, 2008)

Ulster County Legislative Chairman Donaldson Proposing a Catskill Regional Ski Pass

In 2006 Hunter and Windham were part of the the Ski The Catskills Card  







Wayback Machine listed Hunter and Windham on Ski the Catskills Card in 2006.


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## skidbump (Sep 30, 2008)

And the answer is....

Regional ski pass idea gets cool reception 
By Jay Braman Jr., Correspondent
09/30/2008
Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly
Advertisement

ULSTER County Legislature Chairman David Donaldson's proposal that Ulster, Greene and Delaware counties team up to institute a "Catskill Regional Ski Pass" has received a chilly reception from one of the region's biggest ski centers and only a curious look from another.

Donaldson, D-Kingston, who earlier this year called for a public boycott of activities at Hunter and Windham ski centers in Greene County in response to their criticism of subsidies for the state-owned Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in neighboring Ulster County, now thinks that leaders of the three counties should meet with tourism leaders and ski center operators to develop and promote a ski pass that would allow skiers to ski at any of the centers in the Catskill region.

"This type of ski pass and promotion are long overdue," Donaldson said, noting that he had already written letters to Greene and Delaware county officials asking them to join forces with Ulster in promoting skiing this winter. 

"We should be competing with Vermont, New Hampshire, Colorado and Utah, not with each other," he said.

But this year there has been bad blood between Belleayre and the privately owned Windham and Hunter, both of which pressed for a study of Belleayre's operating budget because they feel it has unfair advantages by being run by the state with taxpayer money.

Tim Woods, president of Windham Mountain, said Donaldson's idea has been discussed at length within his organization since it was proposed, and Windham is not interested.

Woods described Belleayre's ticket rates as "predatory pricing" and therefore sees no benefit to such a deal.

"First, we're subsidizing Belleayre (with taxpayer dollars)," Woods said. "Then we're loaning them our customers?"

In the short term, Woods looks forward to more skier visits this season anyway, saying that he expects high gas prices to keep skiers from the metropolitan area closer to home than Vermont and New Hampshire.

Hunter Mountain President Russ Coloton said Monday that he doesn't know anything about the regional ski pass plan.

"No one has contacted us yet," he said. "Our only understanding of it is from what we read in the paper."

Coloton added that he would be interested in hearing more about the plan.

Donaldson said the leaders of the three Catskill Region counties should work together to promote the whole region and raise awareness of the fact that there are more ski centers in New York state than in any other state in the country, and that there are more ski centers in the Catskill region than in any other region in the state.

"This type of approach makes more sense than Greene County attacking Ulster County's No. 1 tourist attraction, or Ulster County calling for a boycott of Greene County's ski resorts, which in the long run is detrimental to the region as a whole and to both counties,"** Donaldson said.

Donaldson said the owners and management of Belleayre, Hunter and Windham ski areas should meet to discuss ways to bring more skiers to the area instead of fighting over the existing numbers.

"As leaders, it is time for us to lead the way to more positive and cooperative efforts," he said.





©Daily Freeman 2008


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## faceplant (Sep 30, 2008)

_"As leaders, it is time for us to lead the way to more positive and cooperative efforts," he said._

Nobody bothered to get in touch with Hunter? Man, that's some fine leadership work there


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## andrec10 (Sep 30, 2008)

faceplant said:


> _"As leaders, it is time for us to lead the way to more positive and cooperative efforts," he said._
> 
> Nobody bothered to get in touch with Hunter? Man, that's some fine leadership work there



No, its Russ playing Dumb...wait he IS DUMB, and a cheap son of a beatch as well.


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## faceplant (Sep 30, 2008)

Russ or no Russ, I keep thinkin wouldnt it be cool to swap some silver handcuffs for the golden parashutes on Wall St--use the coin up here  How bout some real leadership!


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## andrec10 (Sep 30, 2008)

faceplant said:


> Russ or no Russ, I keep thinkin wouldnt it be cool to swap some silver handcuffs for the golden parashutes on Wall St--use the coin up here  How bout some real leadership!



Imagine even a VERY small percentage of the money blown on Wall street invested into Hunter....Damn new lifts and trails, now theres a concept!:razz:


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## dmc (Sep 30, 2008)

faceplant said:


> Russ or no Russ, I keep thinkin wouldnt it be cool to swap some silver handcuffs for the golden parashutes on Wall St--use the coin up here  How bout some real leadership!



So your saying it is the leadership of Belleayre thats failing me and my fellow tax payers?

Cause last i checked... Hunter, Plattekill and Windham aren't in jeopardy of closing and they have to do it all on their own...

The very thing that people complain about with Russ's Colten being cheap is telling...  Maybe Belleayre should pinch some pennies...  
We're all waiting very patiently for expansion at Hunter...  I hear things... But not enough to talk about...  It's going to happen - but it will happen when they can pay for it...


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## dmc (Sep 30, 2008)

andrec10 said:


> Imagine even a VERY small percentage of the money blown on Wall street invested into Hunter....Damn new lifts and trails, now theres a concept!:razz:



All that $$ Hunter could use to lobby getting use of some of the slack country areas...


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## dmc (Sep 30, 2008)

hardline said:


> i hope they do. i guess we will just have to see how this lands. a pass like this might convince we to get a small house in the area. MC on work days, cats on the days i dont have to be in the office/site and vt on powder days.



May I suggest a mid week powder day at Hunter?  They tend to be pretty nice...

Even a weekend powder day is nice...  Lots of time in the mornings to track the place out before all the cars make it up the mountain road...


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## ed-drum (Sep 30, 2008)

Anyone who says Hunter gets too crowded doesn't know how to ski the place. You have to get there early before the gomers fall out of bed, and hit the breakfast places. It takes a while before the bus people get on the slopes after renting their skis and eating breakfast. Then, there are the GPS people who try to take the Plattecove road shortcut and get mad because their high tech directions don't indicate that the road is CLOSED in the winter and arrive late. Then, the people eat buy their watches and complain that the lodge is too crowded at noon lunchtime. Good skiers do everything EARLIER. I've skied on VERY crowded weekends and know trails that are empty. Belleayre seems empty even with a crowded parking lot because most of the skiers are at the bunny hill.


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## andrec10 (Sep 30, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Anyone who says Hunter gets too crowded doesn't know how to ski the place. You have to get there early before the gomers fall out of bed, and hit the breakfast places. It takes a while before the bus people get on the slopes after renting their skis and eating breakfast. Then, there are the GPS people who try to take the Plattecove road shortcut and get mad because their high tech directions don't indicate that the road is CLOSED in the winter and arrive late. Then, the people eat buy their watches and complain that the lodge is too crowded at noon lunchtime. Good skiers do everything EARLIER. I've skied on VERY crowded weekends and know trails that are empty. Belleayre seems empty even with a crowded parking lot because most of the skiers are at the bunny hill.





Shhhhh!


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## curlyfuzzie (Sep 30, 2008)

k2 four said:


> If it closes where will you ski?
> 
> If it partially opens who will stay / go?
> 
> Just bitching





Since the closing of Scotch Valley/Deer Run/Scotch Valley, Windham and Belleayre are  the closest ski areas to my home. I am a strictly recreational skier who takes great advantage of ski cards and the fact that my non-skiing sister can get me sick discounts on lots of areas through her union. If Belleayre closes or curtails services, *(which would REALLY upset me, as I usually ski there 10-15 days a year) I guess I would go more frequently to Windham, but after reading about their “cool reception” to the idea of a ski card, maybe not.
Now that Gore will apparently be opening their Burnt Ridge Expansion this year, it looks like I’ll be heading north this year, and investing again in my Gore/Whiteface card...  (still fascinating to me that Gore is enjoying a great expansion, while Belleayre is on the chopping block).


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## RichT (Sep 30, 2008)

People! Don't listen to these guys, Hunter is always crowded and never sees a powder day!! So you should go north where the snow really is!:roll:


I don't want Bellayere to close either!


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## ed-drum (Sep 30, 2008)

Going early doesn't apply to just Hunter. One can't stay out late and party AND get a good day in. Skiing with a hangover is not just silly, it can be dangerous. Besides, the cops around Hunter arrest people for drunk driving early in the morning because they still smell like a still from the night before. I've heard about that happening.


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## k2 four (Sep 30, 2008)

curlyfuzzie said:


> Since the closing of Scotch Valley/Deer Run/Scotch Valley, Windham and Belleayre are  the closest ski areas to my home. I am a strictly recreational skier who takes great advantage of ski cards and the fact that my non-skiing sister can get me sick discounts on lots of areas through her union. If Belleayre closes or curtails services, *(which would REALLY upset me, as I usually ski there 10-15 days a year) I guess I would go more frequently to Windham, but after reading about their “cool reception” to the idea of a ski card, maybe not.
> Now that Gore will apparently be opening their Burnt Ridge Expansion this year, it looks like I’ll be heading north this year, and investing again in my Gore/Whiteface card...  (still fascinating to me that Gore is enjoying a great expansion, while Belleayre is on the chopping block).




Funny, I grew up skiing Scotch Valley.... Loved it. I remember when it changed to Deer Run. That could be oh lets say 25 years ago + or -.

Gore would be my choice, however its about 1:45 longer of a drive for me. More gas money, more time on the road.


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## hardline (Sep 30, 2008)

dmc said:


> May I suggest a mid week powder day at Hunter?  They tend to be pretty nice...
> 
> Even a weekend powder day is nice...  Lots of time in the mornings to track the place out before all the cars make it up the mountain road...



i would consider it but last year i followed the snow and it ended me at stowe 9 time out 10. if the storm tracks south i would more than likely end up at platy but it might be fun to meet up track the place. plus we have to at least one skillz spitty tour this winter.


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## thinnmann (Sep 30, 2008)

*Rumors, Speculation & Lies - A Critical Review*

You guys are getting a bit OT with the Hunter stuff.

I started this thread on Sep. 8.  Here it is the last day of the month and we have gone up and down on the stock market a lot more than on any ski hills so far this month.  So it is time for an _accounting _-

Let's review:

*WHAT WE KNOW*:

Belleayre is facing budget cuts and must figure out how to have a ski season operation.  
Belleayre's web site is devoid of any info except "Belleayre Mountain is currently working on 2008-2009 pricing and programming, please check this website frequently for updates and changes."
We should write letters & emails, and call NY legislators to tell them to support Belleayre.

*WHAT WE DON'T KNOW:*

How deep the budget cuts will affect Belleayre's operations.
The effect of the lobbyists from Green County.
Hunter & Wyndham's real numbers.
The definition of "crowded" when applying it to Catskill ski areas.
How DMC is able to spend so much time on the computer, at this forum.

*WHAT IS RUMOR:*

There will be no daycare or instructional programs at Belleayre.
There will be no races at Belleayre, but BMRA will train on any available terrain with limited gate training.
There will be only one upper mountain lift operating - Superchief.
The west side will be closed.
Hunter is not crowded.
DMC gets a monthly check from Hunter based on the number of times he mentions them in his posts.

Let's hope October brings us some REAL INFORMATION, both from the official Belleayre web site and from some reporters willing to dig for some truth and publish it!


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## dmc (Sep 30, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> [*]DMC gets a monthly check from Hunter based on the number of times he mentions them in his posts.



DMC works on the internet...  and many hours a day..  So this place is my water cooler...  too bad for you... 

DMC is a NY State Taxpayer and a resident of the village of Hunter in the town of Hunter and want to see his town prosper and my tax $ accounted for..  The only affiliation i have with the ski area is I buy a pass and play music at happy hour...


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## dmc (Sep 30, 2008)

*WHAT WE DON'T KNOW:*

How deep the budget cuts will affect Belleayre's operations.
The effect of the lobbyists from Green County.
Hunter & Wyndham's real numbers.
*Weather of not tax payer $ was mismanaged*
*If the ski areas will bond together for a common pass*
*Why someone from new Jersey is questioning a NYer questioning state $ use*
*What the big deal about Belleayre is?*
*Will all the new guys you recruited ever post anyplace else on AZ?  And did I scare them away?*

just joking... It's all good...  Belleayre will open... Snow will fly...


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## hardline (Sep 30, 2008)

dmc said:


> *WHAT WE DON'T KNOW:*
> 
> How deep the budget cuts will affect Belleayre's operations.
> The effect of the lobbyists from Green County.
> ...



new avatar?


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## dmc (Sep 30, 2008)

hardline said:


> new avatar?



IT's ski season... almost...


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## hardline (Sep 30, 2008)

dmc said:


> IT's ski season... almost...



its freakin killin me. moved some stuff up the lake house for winter. decided i want to be closer to the hill this year.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Oct 1, 2008)

dmc said:


> *WHAT WE DON'T KNOW:*
> 
> How deep the budget cuts will affect Belleayre's operations.
> The effect of the lobbyists from Green County.
> ...





What does the weather have to do with alleged mismanagement of taxpayer money?


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## catskills (Oct 1, 2008)

Is it true that Hunter and Windham now want to shut down all taxpayer money going to NASA research on Mars ever since the Mars Lander found snow on Mars  ? :blink:


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## faceplant (Oct 1, 2008)

*Bovina Aman Resort*

All this noise about Belleayre resort but not a sound about that huge resort on its way in Bovina.  Buddy in Andes tells me its gonna be as upscale as you can get.  Right down to playing polo and swimming in a pool fulla cash.  There even lifting the liquor ban so it can go through.  Just imagin if they build the resort first, then take Bobcat outta mothballs for all them rich folks.  Weird-not a peep outta Hunter an Windy bout it tho.  You boys are so worried about little Belleayre your missing the big bear creepin up from behind. Wait til Orville sees all them sheiks limos drivin past his mountain on the way to Bovina. Lotta raptors out there.

http://www.amanresorts.com/


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## skidbump (Oct 1, 2008)

Now DMC will want mars to close  :smile:


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## dmc (Oct 1, 2008)

faceplant said:


> All this noise about Belleayre resort but not a sound about that huge resort on its way in Bovina.  Buddy in Andes tells me its gonna be as upscale as you can get.  Right down to playing polo and swimming in a pool fulla cash.  There even lifting the liquor ban so it can go through.  Just imagin if they build the resort first, then take Bobcat outta mothballs for all them rich folks.  Weird-not a peep outta Hunter an Windy bout it tho.  You boys are so worried about little Belleayre your missing the big bear creepin up from behind. Wait til Orville sees all them sheiks limos drivin past his mountain on the way to Bovina. Lotta raptors out there.
> 
> http://www.amanresorts.com/



Nice try.... But there's tons wrong with your post...  
Starting with.. Is the state paying for this resort... Which it is not...

What is your problem.... Why are you being like this????   Why do you hate Hunter and Windham that much?  What's the root cause... Did daddy leave at the top of the quad when you were a little baby?  Did a BMW chase you down in the Windham parking lot?
  Did you hit a rock at Plattekill..??

Or is it more deep seated then that.......?

I understand if you don't want to talk about it...   Hating ski areas is a real problem...  You may have to face it in therapy someday...  Good luck with that...  I hear theres lots of good docs in Jersey....


----------



## dmc (Oct 1, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Now DMC will want mars to close  :smile:



good one...  But sersiously...

I DO NOT WANT BELLEAYRE TO CLOSE!!!!!!


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 1, 2008)

faceplant said:


> All this noise about Belleayre resort but not a sound about that huge resort on its way in Bovina.  Buddy in Andes tells me its gonna be as upscale as you can get.  Right down to playing polo and swimming in a pool fulla cash.  There even lifting the liquor ban so it can go through.  Just imagin if they build the resort first, then take Bobcat outta mothballs for all them rich folks.  Weird-not a peep outta Hunter an Windy bout it tho.  You boys are so worried about little Belleayre your missing the big bear creepin up from behind. Wait til Orville sees all them sheiks limos drivin past his mountain on the way to Bovina. Lotta raptors out there.
> 
> http://www.amanresorts.com/



Troll!:uzi:


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## faceplant (Oct 1, 2008)

We"re wippin up some mimosas--sounds like you could use a double, mountaiman?


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## dmc (Oct 1, 2008)

faceplant said:


> We"re wippin up some mimosas--sounds like you could use a double, mountaiman?



I'll stick to big boy drinks...

But thanks...


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## dmc (Oct 1, 2008)

andrec10 said:


> Troll!:uzi:



Jersey Troll.... Worst kind...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)


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## ed-drum (Oct 1, 2008)

Dmc used to live in  New Jersey. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black! Oh yeah, my wife was born in Jersey.


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## dmc (Oct 1, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Dmc used to live in  New Jersey. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black! Oh yeah, my wife was born in Jersey.



I did... I lived in Ohio and Georgia too..  Also NY before in the past...

But i do pay taxes in NY now...  And thats the point...


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## ed-drum (Oct 1, 2008)

Ohio, New Jersey and Georgia. You must be so PROUD, DMC!


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## dmc (Oct 1, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> Ohio, New Jersey and Georgia. You must be so PROUD, DMC!



i was thinking about backing off this board for a bit based upon all the ruckus and negative stuff I've been involved with...

I'm now convinced this is a good idea - thanks Ed......  

Next post will be Hunter making snow!!!  Psyched!


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## ed-drum (Oct 1, 2008)

I'm just joking with you, DMC! The Air Force stuck me in Myrtle Beach South Carolina. I hated it! Too hot in the summer, cold in the winter with no snow and idiot tourists all over. Kind of like the Woodstock tourists looking for the field where the '69 concert was.


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## k2 four (Oct 1, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> "He's (Tony Lanza) on his way out, but that's another story." Orville Slutsky.  Woodstock Times article when Hunter built the learning center.



Like to hear more about this one.


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## faceplant (Oct 1, 2008)

"Over the last 20 years," says Geoffrey Weill, "Aman has developed a model of exquisite service, graciousness and luxury -- and the ne plus ultra in terms of the guest experience -- that are considered, quite simply, the ultimate in the world of hospitality”

Yup- think I”ll swing by in the ol rig and pick myself up a brooo-shure, check out the ne plus ultra to


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## catskills (Oct 1, 2008)

I was just kidding about the Mars thing.  

Seriously, personally I think we all do much better if neighbors worked together rather than fight each other.  By neighbors I mean Greene, Delaware, and Ulster counties. 

I have to believe that weekend customer visits at most could only increase 10 to 20 percent before Hunter and Windham maxed out their current capacity.  That last 10 percent customer weekend growth may be difficult because many customers will not enjoy that kind of customer density.  Personally, I would love to see Hunter be able to expand up to the Hunter Fire Tower to get over 2000 feet of vertical. That would be awesome.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Oct 1, 2008)

The Times Union is reporting that NYS is investigating leasing public assets like the Tappan Zee and the NYS lottery....Maybe relevant to Belleayre?  Granted, it won't bring in any "real" money, like leasing the bridge or the lottery might, but the area might be up for grabs just for principle's sake if other public assets are leased....

(Can't take credit for finding this article....It was posted on skiADK.com.)


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## k2 four (Oct 1, 2008)

Hearsay from the top..... Belleayre will fully open this winter! The noticable differences will be in some energy conseration efforts. 
Programs will run. All trails open.
The official press release will be out this afternoon.

The late but favorable outcome is probably due to the huge amount of noise created by all the Belleayre supporters. That includes DMC (Run DMC?).


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## ed-drum (Oct 1, 2008)

Getting Hunter to expand to the top of the real Hunter Mountain by the fire tower will never happen because Hunter Mtn. is "forever wild". The ski area's mountain is called "Colonel's Chair.


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## thinnmann (Oct 1, 2008)

k2 four said:


> Hearsay from the top..... Belleayre will fully open this winter! The noticable differences will be in some energy conseration efforts.
> Programs will run. All trails open.
> The official press release will be out this afternoon.
> 
> The late but favorable outcome is probably due to the huge amount of noise created by all the Belleayre supporters. That includes DMC (Run DMC?).



Hope you are not just setting us up for a fall, K2four....

I did notice two changes at the Bell web site:
New page here http://www.belleayre.com/fall/fall.htm
And this new page has a header that reads "2008-2009 Ski Season"!
http://www.belleayre.com/fall/leaf.htm


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## thinnmann (Oct 1, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> "He's (Tony Lanza) on his way out, but that's another story." Orville Slutsky.  Woodstock Times article when Hunter built the learning center.





k2 four said:


> Like to hear more about this one.



Yesterday evening, I received this email from Belleayre Mountain Racing Association.  Jim Cardenali is the director of the racing programs at Belleayre:

_From: Jim Cardenali
Re: Tony Lanza
Dear Folks,
Tony's passion and dedication to Belleayre Mountain, the Catskill area  and communities, all of us, skiing, and the entire ski industry has been unwavering as he negotiates through a myriad of delays and attempted sabotage of his dreams and efforts toward them. I would like to request that we individually write letters or e-mails of appreciation and thanks to Tony for his incredible efforts.
Sincerely,
Jim Cardenali
(Tony's e-mail is tplanza@gw.dec.state.ny.us)_​


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## k2 four (Oct 1, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Hope you are not just setting us up for a fall, K2four....
> 
> I did notice two changes at the Bell web site:
> New page here http://www.belleayre.com/fall/fall.htm
> ...



Comes from an A1 source.

They are working on the web site updates as we speak. Official word soon!

Here I come Dot!


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## highpeaksdrifter (Oct 1, 2008)

k2 four said:


> Comes from an A1 source.
> 
> They are working on the web site updates as we speak. Official word soon!
> 
> Here I come Dot!



That’s impressive access to the top.


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## k2 four (Oct 1, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> That’s impressive access to the top.



Not so impressive. I made the right call to the right person at the right time. Simple; anyone could have made the call. It was just a fluke that the word came down this morning when I called.


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## ed-drum (Oct 1, 2008)

BELLEAYRE WILL BE FULLY OPEN THIS YEAR STARTING NOV.28!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The website is now up with lift prices. WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## catskills (Oct 1, 2008)

ed-drum said:


> BELLEAYRE WILL BE FULLY OPEN THIS YEAR STARTING NOV.28!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The website is now up with lift prices. WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 Awesome news.  Nobody wanted Belleayre to close.  :beer: 

Nothing like  skiing in the Catskills    Now your totally stoked right.


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## skidbump (Oct 1, 2008)

Don't wanna be a pessimist but looks like its going to be a month shorter for there season.
Plus 2 lifts and 6 trails not opening


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## skidbump (Oct 1, 2008)

here is the skinny from web site

Featured Events
BELLEAYRE SET TO SKI 7 DAYS A WEEK AS OPENING DAY ANNOUNCED
41 Trails Prepped to Go for Season


            Belleayre Mountain will be open for riding and skiing seven days a week for the 2008-2009 season, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation announced today. Weather and conditions permitting, Belleayre will open the day after Thanksgiving, Friday, Nov. 28, and run through March 2009, operating six lifts and 41 trails and glades.

Located in the heart of the Catskill Mountains in Highmount, NY, Belleayre will offer terrain for all levels of riders and skiers from beginner to expert. All programming will be available, including the popular “Kidscamp,” racing programs, and – new this year -- the adaptive ski program. Trained instructors from Belleayre and Helen Hayes Rehabilitation Hospital will provide coaching for the adaptive community.

In response to the state’s fiscal situation, Belleayre is taking a number of steps this season to operate more efficiently while continuing to deliver a world-class regional skiing experience. Two lifts that are adjacent to other, more highly used lifts will be closed, a change that will have only a marginal impact on lift capacity. While snowmaking and grooming on most of the mountain will be unchanged, several of the less frequently used trails will be open on a natural cover basis. Use of the “Half Pipe” terrain also will be weather dependent. In addition, advertising will be reduced, and other operational and administrative efficiencies achieved. These changes will not impact skier safety or any essential operations or maintenance of the ski area. 

Most season ticket prices will remain the same as last year. Daily lift tickets will increase slightly to account for higher fuel costs and increases in other operational costs.

DEC Commissioner Pete Grannis thanked Senator John Bonacic and Assemblyman Kevin Cahill for advocating for the Belleayre, an important regional resource.

“The communities throughout the Route 28 Corridor have made their voices loud and clear on the importance of the Belleayre Ski Center to the local economy,” Assemblyman Cahill said. “Commissioner Grannis and Governor (David A.) Paterson have demonstrated a keen understanding of the significance of this facility to the region by putting forth a reasonable plan that accounts for the current pressures in the economy as well as destabilizing energy costs. Working closely with DEC to resolve this issue, we prioritized the need for a full season with a diversity of programs at a reasonable price and that is what Commissioner Grannis delivered.”

Season passes, frequent skiers cards and “Belleayre Bucks” are now on sale. The Belleayre Fall Festival, scheduled for Oct. 11-12, will be held at the Delaware and Ulster Railroad depot on Route 28 in Arkville, just five miles from the ski area.

Belleayre’s annual “Job Fair” for seasonal workers is slated for Nov. 8, from noon to 6 p.m. at the Longhouse Lodge. For more information about employment, specific programming or the upcoming Fall Festival and ski season please go to www.belleayre.com.


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## MarkC (Oct 1, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Don't wanna be a pessimist but looks like its going to be a month shorter for there season.
> Plus 2 lifts and 6 trails not opening



The question is which 2.  I am thinking 2 and 7.


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## thinnmann (Oct 1, 2008)

*Do The Happy Dance!*



I wonder if this forum helped?.........



skidbump said:


> Don't wanna be a pessimist but looks like its going to be a month shorter for there season.
> Plus 2 lifts and 6 trails not opening





MarkC said:


> The question is which 2.  I am thinking 2 and 7.



Calendar shows snowsport events through April 12.
http://www.belleayre.com/company/calendar.htm

Closing 7 on weekends would put a hell of a lot of traffic on the run in to Superchief, and cause wait-in-line hell.  Hoping the closed lifts are 2 and another of those short green lines on the bunnies.


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## faceplant (Oct 1, 2008)

*from 1 nytaxpayin mope...*

halaluyah- Belleayre rides again! Helmets off to Gov. Paterson, Sen. Schumer & Bonacic, Comish Grannis, Assemblyman Cahill, Congressman Hinchey- all the officials elected (& un) who heard the people, and did the rite thing. Please believe, you kept Its A Wonderful Life from turnin into Pottersville.   Looks like time to celebrate with a pie from Alice and Roger


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## MarkC (Oct 1, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I wonder if this forum helped?.........
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Closing a handle tow would not save that much money. Only one person is needed to operate a handle tow.  A chairlift takes 3.


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## skidbump (Oct 2, 2008)

says in text of msg ...1 of the 2 doubles and another more highly used lift...any lift closed on weekend will cause long waits.


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## andrec10 (Oct 2, 2008)

skidbump said:


> says in text of msg ...1 of the 2 doubles and another more highly used lift...any lift closed on weekend will cause long waits.



Considering its the state and DEC, I think you should be thankful it is going to be open as much as it is. I have have personally dealt with the DEC, and this turnaround in itself is nothing short of incredible! Sometimes we need to be thankful for what we have!


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## faceplant (Oct 2, 2008)

highly used?  i"m bettin on the triple- just a hunch

now we"re passed this I can get back to doin somethin usefull

like lookin for bigfoot
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19813529&BRD=1769&PAG=461&dept_id=74969&rfi=6


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## evantrentful (Oct 2, 2008)

haha. I just bought a midweek season pass!
I noticed they have a 'share belleayre' program, that if you buy any pass before 'labor day' you can bring a friend 5 times at a discount... I wonder if that is a typo and they meant columbus day

I can see them closing the Triple, but I would be amazed if it was Chair 1 or 2. They are the only chairs that service the green area, Doubles and slow, only having one would clog that whole area down. Hopefully its one of the Tbars


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## evantrentful (Oct 2, 2008)

eh. Nevermind. I just checked, they updated the website to read "Opening Day" instead of labor day and raised the ticket price from $28 to $34. oh well


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## thinnmann (Oct 2, 2008)

k2 four said:


> Not so impressive. I made the right call to the right person at the right time. Simple; anyone could have made the call. It was just a fluke that the word came down this morning when I called.



Hey K2four (BTW, you still ski those?):
Any chance you can use your connections and make another phone call to the right person to find out which lifts are not going to run, and if the non-running will include weekends?


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## thinnmann (Oct 2, 2008)

*Some new numbers*

Most of the articles that came out yesterday following the press release just quoted it, for the most part.  Some headlines spun it as negative, "Belleayre Confirms Operational Cutbacks", and some spun it as positive, "Belleayre Set to Ski Seven Days...".

Here is one that came out today quoting actual numbers:

_...Belleayre was “left about $1.5 million short for the upcoming ski season even with the $750,000 NY Senator John Bonacic secured._​


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## k2 four (Oct 2, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Don't wanna be a pessimist but looks like its going to be a month shorter for there season.
> Plus 2 lifts and 6 trails not opening



The halfpipe counts as 1 trail and the other 5 are glade trails that are only open with natural snow anyway. My guess is that Algonquin and Peeka will be opened with natural snow only.


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## k2 four (Oct 2, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Hey K2four (BTW, you still ski those?):
> Any chance you can use your connections and make another phone call to the right person to find out which lifts are not going to run, and if the non-running will include weekends?



Ahhhh. the K2four, the rebirth of skiing IMHO. I don't ski them anymore. I like them due to that unknown racer that made them (and himself) famous. He was a rebel than and a rebel now.

I will make a couple of calls to see what shakes out.


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## Rambo (Oct 2, 2008)

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5007

From what I have been reading on the net, Belleayre will still be underfunded. Not running all lifts on the upper mountain on crowded weekends may drive frustrated skiers away.

Also the above article states: "Although the ski resort located in the Catskill Mountains north of New York City will still operate seven days per week, from *Nov. 28 through March 2009*, officials at the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) confirmed on Wednesday that lift and snowmaking operations will be restricted this winter." SO THE SEASON MAY END AT THE END OF MARCH.

I know Belleayre's website still shows a calender of events, listing activities through April 12, 2009, BUT that was before the budget problems.


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## thinnmann (Oct 2, 2008)

*Optimism*



k2 four said:


> Ahhhh. the K2four, the rebirth of skiing IMHO. I don't ski them anymore. I like them due to that unknown racer that made them (and himself) famous. He was a rebel than and a rebel now.
> 
> I will make a couple of calls to see what shakes out.



Thanks!

People may call Bode a rebel, but it shakes out that he was a VISONARY.




Rambo said:


> I know Belleayre's website still shows a calender of events, listing activities through April 12, 2009, BUT that was before the budget problems.



I could be wrong, but I believe that calendar appeared yesterday, when they rolled out the site update.

Maybe it goes like this:
You make the plans and set the limits.  Then, when you are really in operation, you begin conservatively, hoping at the end you can stretch your resources and extend your plans beyond your original limits.

We can always hope for LOTS OF NATURAL SNOW~~!


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## edgeworker (Oct 2, 2008)

I called the Mt and they said that the rope tow and one of the parallel lower lifts will be shut down. Trails closed are the ones that they nomally don`t blow on including Cathedral.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 2, 2008)

Well I guess Belleayre will operate pretty much normally so everybody fussed about nothing..lol..wow this sure turned out to be an epic thread..It does stink about no April skiing..since that's when I usually visit Belleayre


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## Rambo (Oct 2, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Well I guess Belleayre will operate pretty much normally so everybody fussed about nothing..lol..wow this sure turned out to be an epic thread..It does stink about no April skiing..since that's when I usually visit Belleayre



I do think that to save money the DEC will probably close Belleayre skiing at the very end of March. In April, especially midweek there just are not that many skiers left. That Calendar on the Belleayre website that list events throuh April 12th was posted a while ago. OH well... will probably have to find some place else for Mid-April skiing - Maybe Gore or Mount Snow.


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## edgeworker (Oct 2, 2008)

Belleayre may be a great place to earn your turns in April. And then there's Tux...


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## skidbump (Oct 2, 2008)

You all realize they cut 25%"1.5 million" of the 6 million dollar budget and the cuts include snow making and grooming


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## Rambo (Oct 2, 2008)

skidbump said:


> You all realize they cut 25%"1.5 million" of the 6 million dollar budget and the cuts include snow making and grooming



I read that a State Representative got $750,000 added back in. So is the Belleayre budget down 1.5 million or $750,000?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 2, 2008)

Rambo said:


> I do think that to save money the DEC will probably close Belleayre skiing at the very end of March. In April, especially midweek there just are not that many skiers left. That Calendar on the Belleayre website that list events throuh April 12th was posted a while ago. OH well... will probably have to find some place else for Mid-April skiing - Maybe Gore or Mount Snow.



Maybe they can operate weekends only in April as a compromise..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 2, 2008)

skidbump said:


> You all realize they cut 25%"1.5 million" of the 6 million dollar budget and the cuts include snow making and grooming



Better than it being added to NELSAP....


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## skidbump (Oct 2, 2008)

State cutting back some at Belleayre 
Staff and wire reports 
10/02/2008
Email to a friendPost a CommentPrinter-friendly
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ALBANY - The state Department of Environmental Conservation is cutting back some operations at the state-run Belleayre Mountain Ski in Highmount to cut spending, but the facility will remain open seven days a week during the ski season.

Snowmaking and lift use at Belleayre Mountain will be reduced this year, along with advertising for the center. Opening several less frequently used trails and the "half pipe" terrain will depend on the weather, but snowmaking and grooming on most of the mountain will be unchanged.

State environmental officials also said some ski lifts next to more heavily used lifts will be closed and the price of daily lift tickets will be slightly increased.

All programming will remain available at the mountain, which will be open seven days a week for the season. Belleayre opens the day after Thanksgiving and runs through March 2009. 

U.S. Senator Charles E. Schumer, D-N.Y., who in September wrote the state agency urging it to commit to a full ski season at the ski mountain after it was reported there were plans to sharply reduce the operating budget, hailed the decision to keep the facility open seven days a week.

"Once again this winter, chair lifts will be humming and the powder fresh at Belleayre Mountain," Schumer said. "This is a big win for Ulster County. In an economic terrain studded by moguls, we have to do everything we can to keep jobs in the area. I am so glad that the DEC and Commissioner (Pete) Grannis did what had to be done to keep the mountain open so that the region could reap the benefits of jobs and revenue that Belleayre brings."

State Sen. John Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, was less pleased with the announcement, saying in a press release, "Belleayre was left about $1.5 million short for the upcoming ski season. I have secured $750,000 to help Belleayre this year, thereby allowing Belleayre to open the number of trails they now say they will. Still, Belleayre is short of the cash needed to operate in the manner it should be."

Bonacic urged Schumer, Ulster County leaders and state Assembly members to come up with more money to support the ski center.

"I urge (Gov. David Paterson) and Commissioner (Pete) Grannis to rethink this decision and urge those who speak highly of Belleayre to step up just once, as the Senate has done for the past eight years and help Belleayre now," Bonacic said.







©Daily Freeman 2008


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## skidbump (Oct 2, 2008)

Here how it works in real world.
If you don't supply what the customer wants they will not come back.
Less snow means less trails open.Less trails means more people on less trails.More people on less lifts mean more people on lift lines.This will only last for awhile then it will be.
Less people on mountain means less people on lifts mean less people in towns means less people needed fto support those less people.Then end of year its...less skiers then its less money is needed for next years budget means less money for snow making means less skiers on mountain ..This is almost a death spiral and unless there is 100% operational budget we will be back into the 80's at the area.Plus who really wants to go to a ski resort"future destination" that may or may not operate at 100% due to a state budget cut.
Sorry if i don't sound real happy but i see this as a half ass attempt by the Governor and the DEC that will only lead to a negative outcome.Budget looks like there will still be labor cuts and those cuts will directly affect surrounding areas.

I may be wrong.
I really hope i am wrong.But i have seen it in the private sector and it ain't pretty


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## edgeworker (Oct 3, 2008)

How about this: Less Drama & More Skiing

Get you hands away from the PANIC button and go tune your skis:-o


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## k2 four (Oct 3, 2008)

skidbump said:


> Here how it works in real world.
> If you don't supply what the customer wants they will not come back.
> Less snow means less trails open.Less trails means more people on less trails.More people on less lifts mean more people on lift lines.This will only last for awhile then it will be.
> Less people on mountain means less people on lifts mean less people in towns means less people needed fto support those less people.Then end of year its...less skiers then its less money is needed for next years budget means less money for snow making means less skiers on mountain ..This is almost a death spiral and unless there is 100% operational budget we will be back into the 80's at the area.Plus who really wants to go to a ski resort"future destination" that may or may not operate at 100% due to a state budget cut.
> ...



Keep this point in mind when reading press releases; A press release from Belleayre must represent the "Worst Case Scenario" in order to sell seasons passes and programs without the fear of refund requests. Tony will open everything that he can and blow as much snow as possible. I don't think we will notice a big difference. The lifts will be strategically shut down as they can. I would expect things to be better than the picture that is painted right now.


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## Starter Jackets Rule! (Oct 5, 2008)

ERJ-145CA said:


> Mountain creek sux, my home mountain is Hidden Valley, it already sux that I have to drive 15 minutes to HV versus 10 minutes to MC.:smile:
> 
> Of course, if Belleayre isn't worth the drive and is not open early and late season that's 6 to 10 less trips to NY for me as Belleayre is the closest Catskill mountain.  Which means not spending my money in your state and region and not paying Thruway tolls, gas and sales taxes in NY.




Ah come on ERJ I live at the top of the trip (HL) worked coached instructed at HV and I also ski bellayre.
And It is worth the trip.
my question is to Gov. Patterson is What is Tony Lanza doing on his new days off?
LOL!
Ski fast Take Chances Tuck Hell'in Back while your at it...I do.


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## hardline (Oct 5, 2008)

i wasn't at bell this past year on closing day but the year before there was a good amount of people. most where from out of state. i could see them closing durring the week but i would imagine they where making money on the weekends as they where the only game in town.


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## Starter Jackets Rule! (Oct 5, 2008)

hardline said:


> i wasn't at bell this past year on closing day but the year before there was a good amount of people. most where from out of state. i could see them closing durring the week but i would imagine they where making money on the weekends as they where the only game in town.



made it the third to last day (Friday)hooked up with some hunnah skiers and riders. 
got mushy after noon but the snow was not bad!


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## catskills (Oct 8, 2008)

Awhile back I predicted that this thread would pass the 10,000 views on Oct 8.  There is still time.  Help make this thread a 10k view thread.   ;-)


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## thinnmann (Oct 8, 2008)

*To help the 10000 hit cause...*

This mountain is directly competing with Belleayre...


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## k2 four (Oct 8, 2008)

Starter Jackets Rule! said:


> Ah come on ERJ I live at the top of the trip (HL) worked coached instructed at HV and I also ski bellayre.
> And It is worth the trip.
> my question is to Gov. Patterson is What is Tony Lanza doing on his new days off?
> LOL!
> Ski fast Take Chances Tuck Hell'in Back while your at it...I do.



HV was our home mountain from the 02-03 to the 06-07 season. I was a race coach from 04-05 season untill we migrated to Bell last year. Do you have kids in th HV race program? My kids - Jake and Jenna.

How is HV with the new owners? Are you a "Club" member?

Coach Brad


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## ERJ-145CA (Oct 8, 2008)

Starter Jackets Rule! said:


> Ah come on ERJ I live at the top of the trip (HL) worked coached instructed at HV and I also ski bellayre.
> And It is worth the trip.
> my question is to Gov. Patterson is What is Tony Lanza doing on his new days off?
> LOL!
> Ski fast Take Chances Tuck Hell'in Back while your at it...I do.



I wasn't saying Belleayre isn't worth the trip, I usually hit it about 6-10 times a season, I was saying that if it only had one lift and a few trails open then it wouldn't be worth the trip.  Of course early season one lift and a couple, or even one trail, *is* worth the drive.  Now that we know it will be almost fully open it will be worth it.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 8, 2008)

catskills said:


> Awhile back I predicted that this thread would pass the 10,000 views on Oct 8.  There is still time.  Help make this thread a 10k view thread.   ;-)



Wow it's just a worthless number..anyway..off to post in another thread so I can get closer to 10,000 posts..lol


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## jtothewang (Oct 13, 2008)

*Scotch Valley - Group Tried to Reopen Ski Resort*

http://www.savescotchvalley.com/

Went home upstate this weekend was excited to hear there is a group trying to get Scotch Valley back up and running.  As for Belleayre, I agree with the lease to a private organization idea.  Put a 50-yr lease together and let Hunter/Windham and Plattekill bid for it.  If none of them want the 50-yr lease, open it up to another resoponsible third party.  No reason at all for Belleayre to be state run.


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## thinnmann (Oct 14, 2008)

jtothewang said:


> ....No reason at all for Belleayre to be state run.



...does that go for all the New York state beaches, lakes, parks, Whiteface and Gore too?....


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## jamesdeluxe (Oct 14, 2008)

What about the all those unfortunate country clubs that have to compete against state-run golf courses?

Privatize them all and let market forces reign!!  It worked for the financial markets, right?


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## ERJ-145CA (Oct 14, 2008)

I do feel bad for the country clubs, you are absolutely right.


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## faceplant (Oct 14, 2008)

jtothewang said:


> http://www.savescotchvalley.com/
> 
> Went home upstate this weekend was excited to hear there is a group trying to get Scotch Valley back up and running.  As for Belleayre, I agree with the lease to a private organization idea.  Put a 50-yr lease together and let Hunter/Windham and Plattekill bid for it.  If none of them want the 50-yr lease, open it up to another resoponsible third party.  No reason at all for Belleayre to be state run.


 
I wish you nothin but the best getting Scotch Valley outta mothballs. If thats succesfull 

mebbe they can turn there atention to Bobcat.. Cortina... Highmount..Phoenicia ..

Dutchess-Beacon.. Big Vanilla... all them great old private areas

http://www.teachski.com/brochures/BigVanilla/Bigvanilla.htm


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## catskills (Oct 15, 2008)

I like state owned ski areas, golf courses, beaches, camp grounds, lakes, boat slips, museums, etc.....  Some of you go way too far with this anti state competing  with private enterprise.  Give me a break.   Next you will want only privately owned businesses to run hiking trails in the Adirondacks and Catskills.   

Then again I am a Volunteer Firemen/EMT-B and we don't charge for medical care, extracting you and your loved ones from a motor vehicle accident, and transport you to a Hospital.  I know Volunteer rescue squads are anti capitalism and compete with the paid ambulance services.


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## ERJ-145CA (Oct 15, 2008)

catskills said:


> I like state owned ski areas, golf courses, beaches, camp grounds, lakes, boat slips, museums, etc.....  Some of you go way too far with this anti state competing  with private enterprise.  Give me a break.   Next you will want only privately owned businesses to run hiking trails in the Adirondacks and Catskills.



Privately owned businesses running hiking trails would be awesome.  Just think you could see advertisements on the trees along the trail instead of just boring old trees!


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## Method9455 (Oct 15, 2008)

catskills said:


> I like state owned ski areas, golf courses, beaches, camp grounds, lakes, boat slips, museums, etc.....  Some of you go way too far with this anti state competing  with private enterprise.  Give me a break.   Next you will want only privately owned businesses to run hiking trails in the Adirondacks and Catskills.
> 
> Then again I am a Volunteer Firemen/EMT-B and we don't charge for medical care, extracting you and your loved ones from a motor vehicle accident, and transport you to a Hospital.  I know Volunteer rescue squads are anti capitalism and compete with the paid ambulance services.



I look at Belleayre the same way I look at the parks in Manhattan. When I go eat the bag lunch I brought from home in Madison Park and I see a lot of guys in suits going into restaurants for lunch that I can barely afford, I'm glad that the government is "subsidizing" my recreation just a bit. 

Imagine how much money the city of New York could make if it turned all the parks into office buildings and charged rent? We wouldn't need to pay any taxes. Or sell central park off parcel by parcel, put it in a trust fund, we'd never pay taxes again.

But no one argues for that because we all enjoy the parks too much. Belleayre is much the same way. It is subsidized recreation, but it is economic stimulus for the area and it enables a lot of people to go skiing that otherwise couldn't because the prices are lower. If parks in the city were privatized, they would be a lot better for those who could afford to get in - it is often difficult to get a seat on a sunny summer day - but would it be better for everyone? 

I'm just glad that it will be in full operation this year.


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## faceplant (Oct 15, 2008)

_*N.Y. governor's lease proposal includes roads, bridges*
ALBANY, N.Y. — Gov. David Paterson is proposing that New York join a growing number of states in leasing assets to private contractors to trim costs and provide long-term, steady revenue. Under consideration for leasing could be everything from state highways and bridges to the lottery, golf courses, parks and beaches. -----"I think what you have to do is avoid a fire sale of state assets, whether you call it a sale or a 99-year lease," said Democratic Assemblyman Richard Brodsky of Westchester, whose authorities committee would likely have to approve the deals. "This is a week in which we're considering spending $1 trillion to bail out Wall Street. What magic do they bring?"
http://www.thetrucker.com/news/stories/2008/10/3/NYgovernorsleaseproposalincludesroadsbridges.aspx_

believe it or not friend somebodies thinkin of just that but like thinns been sayin they gotta get around the law. So mebbe theyll look for easier targets like a carthief that spots a lojack & moves on to next one.  heres a solution- just swap silver hancuffs for some golden parashutes & we wont have to wory bout a thing, what with all that coin. Wall st dont need a bailout- they need a good parole officer


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## Starter Jackets Rule! (Oct 15, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> I look at Belleayre the same way I look at the parks in Manhattan. When I go eat the bag lunch I brought from home in Madison Park and I see a lot of guys in suits going into restaurants for lunch that I can barely afford, I'm glad that the government is "subsidizing" my recreation just a bit.
> 
> Imagine how much money the city of New York could make if it turned all the parks into office buildings and charged rent? We wouldn't need to pay any taxes. Or sell central park off parcel by parcel, put it in a trust fund, we'd never pay taxes again.
> 
> ...



"I'm glad that the government is "subsidizing" my recreation just a bit. ...."
 Government?
Don't you mean the TAXPAYERS?


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## catskills (Oct 15, 2008)

Starter Jackets Rule! said:


> "I'm glad that the government is "subsidizing" my recreation just a bit. ...."
> Government?
> Don't you mean the TAXPAYERS?


 Not sure what the problem here is.  Is there a problem?  Taxpayers like myself pay a lot and I mean a lot of taxes.  Getting a little recreation in return that I enjoy is not too much to ask.  Last week I hiked up to the Hunter Fire tower from the Spurceton Valley.   NY State DEC is building a rather nice bridge out of metal  beams across a smll stream not to far from the trail head in Spruceton.  The bridge will be large enough to support small jeeps and horses.  This  bridge is for fire control, hiking and horse riding.  I for one don't have a problem with this.  Unlike Belleayre their are no ticket sales to recoup the money spent on this bridge, which BTW is in Greene county.  H'mmm I don't see Hunter and Windham complaining to the DEC and hiring lobyists to prevent NY State from spending money on this bridge in Greene county.


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## millerm277 (Oct 15, 2008)

catskills said:


> H'mmm I don't see Hunter and Windham complaining to the DEC and hiring lobyists to prevent NY State from spending money on this bridge in Greene county.



Hmm....maybe that's because Hunter and Windham couldn't care less, because that has exactly zero effect on them.


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## Method9455 (Oct 16, 2008)

Starter Jackets Rule! said:


> "I'm glad that the government is "subsidizing" my recreation just a bit. ...."
> Government?
> Don't you mean the TAXPAYERS?



Nope I mean the government.

Taxes are no longer connected to spending, the government decides what to spend money on what it deems important and borrows it from elsewhere. Being that new york is getting bailed out indirectly by the federal gov it is funny you should say something like that.


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## thinnmann (Oct 16, 2008)

*We hit 10,000 views!*

Overall ever on AZ, this thread ranks 9th in views, 4th in number of replies.

The Thread's Prophecy Has Been Fulfilled...........

Om.

:beer:


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## catskills (Oct 16, 2008)

Yahoo - 10,000 views  :blink:


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## Starter Jackets Rule! (Oct 16, 2008)

Method9455 said:


> Nope I mean the government.
> 
> Taxes are no longer connected to spending, the government decides what to spend money on what it deems important and borrows it from elsewhere. Being that new york is getting bailed out indirectly by the federal gov it is funny you should say something like that.



Cool ,We are now off the hook when it comes to paying taxes!
Thanks for making the clear to all of us!
so, what kind of new gear are you going to buy since we no longer have to pay Taxes?
New skis/board?
A ski pass?
Do Tell Do Tell!

Me, I am going to but Tony Lanza A beer With my new savings.
btw I do ski the bell.


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## jtothewang (Oct 22, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> ...does that go for all the New York state beaches, lakes, parks, Whiteface and Gore too?....



You got it buddy, lease all those puppies out.  How else can you ensure they are profitable and run reponsibly?  Last I checked we are in the United States of America.  You know they don't even teach the Boston Tea Party in school anymore.  We need to get back to our roots, the things that made this country great.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox....


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## thinnmann (Oct 22, 2008)

*keepin' da thread alive!*



jtothewang said:


> You got it buddy, lease all those puppies out.  How else can you ensure they are profitable and run reponsibly?  Last I checked we are in the United States of America.  You know they don't even teach the Boston Tea Party in school anymore.  We need to get back to our roots, the things that made this country great.
> 
> Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox....



I am a high school teacher.  My buddies in the history dept do teach about that particular party.

...and, um, i don't exactly get the connection between the question about profit and responsibility and the last you checked about where we live stuff....   Drinking tonight?  Or just J-ing to the wanging us?


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## jtothewang (Oct 22, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I am a high school teacher.  My buddies in the history dept do teach about that particular party.
> 
> ...and, um, i don't exactly get the connection between the question about profit and responsibility and the last you checked about where we live stuff....   Drinking tonight?  Or just J-ing to the wanging us?



good point, re: profit and responsability.  i forgot about the 700b bailout (think groovy baby, what was that movie again?)  i guess i just think we are doomed because now we americans rely on the govt for too much.  just my opinion, but i hear it on the subway and around town.  don't you think we are on the slippery slope to socialism?  or maybe we are skipping that and going straight to communism.  just don't know why the govt needs to get involved in so much stuff.

:beer:

by the way, lift tickets at windham are $65 this year.  how about belleayre?  i don't even know because they cut the mountain in half, so maybe they charge half?

:beer:

ohh yeah, and please thank your buddies for me.  that was a very important party...many people have forgotten all about that party....and i have heard of us history books that have omitted talking about that party...


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## thinnmann (Oct 22, 2008)

jtothewang said:


> good point, re: profit and responsability.  i forgot about the 700b bailout (think groovy baby, what was that movie again?)  i guess i just think we are doomed because now we americans rely on the govt for too much.  just my opinion, but i hear it on the subway and around town.  don't you think we are on the slippery slope to socialism?  or maybe we are skipping that and going straight to communism.  just don't know why the govt needs to get involved in so much stuff.
> 
> :beer:
> 
> ...



Dude, I don't want to derail this thread into one about the current panic the Repubs are in.  That will surely get it locked.

You are sounding pretty uninformed about the final resolution of the Belleayre situation.  The mountain is not cut in half and the lift ticket prices are posted on the Belleayre site.  

And stop getting your news and opinion from the subway chatter.  At AZ slippery slopes are a good thing.


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## skidbump (Nov 19, 2008)

Not making snow on upper roaring brook, tongora ,mohawk,peekamoose and pepacton and a cut to already promised expansion money and you may as well close er down.

Belleayre Resort opponents say cash-strapped state should withdraw funding

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:06 AM EST
By JAY BRAMAN JR.
Correspondent

OPPONENTS of the Belleayre Resort at Catskill Park see an opportunity in the state’s budget crisis, asking Gov. David Paterson to reconsider the $60 million in state money earmarked for the proposed public/private project.

In a Nov. 16 letter to Paterson, the Catskill Heritage Alliance, a 500-member grassroots community and environmental organization, wrote: “In our current crisis, when so much is being asked of so many, this kind of public spending to support private interests makes no sense at all.”

The developers of the Belleayre project say the region needs this type of public spending now more than ever.

Noting the governor’s proposed spending cuts in the areas of education and health care, and the resulting added burdens that would be placed on workers, Alliance Chairman Richard Schaedle suggested the state’s financial commitment to the Belleayre Resort was made only to head off even larger resort plans by developer Crossroads Ventures LLC.

“Asking taxpayers to fork over tens of millions of dollars to, in effect, induce a private development company not to build an environmentally intolerable project but rather one that is merely environmentally disastrous — as well as economically unsound — strikes us as a bad idea at the best of times,” Schaedle wrote. “In our current crisis, when so much is being asked of so many, we suggest that this kind of public spending to support private interests makes no sense at all. We respectfully urge that you review this $60 million public expenditure in our state budget, which we hold to be an unnecessary and, in the present crisis, an excessive burden on taxpayers.”

In a prepared statement, Crossroads spokeswoman Joan Lawrence-Bauer said now is the time to invest in the Belleayre project and the adjacent state-owned ski center.

“Our area needs the jobs this project will create now more than ever,” Lawrence-Bauer said. “And the taxpayers in our region are in desperate need of increased commercial properties on the tax rolls that will help to reduce the overall property tax burden on other private residential and commercial property owners.”

Saying the regional economy has depended on Belleayre Ski Center for nearly 60 years, Lawrence-Bauer added that the resort would create more than $400 million in private-sector investment in what she described as a chronically depressed region.

And noting that studies dating back 40 years recommend the Belleayre ski center become a year-round resort and that the environmental review process for the Crossroads plan has been extensive, Lawrence-Bauer said the state should stay the course.

“The Catskill Heritage Alliance wants Gov. Paterson to kill improvements to Belleayre Mountain because of the current budget crisis,” she said. “Their request is untrue, short-sighted and self-serving in the extreme.”

The resort, which would straddle the border of Ulster and Delaware counties, first was proposed in 1999 and was modified last year as part of an agreement brokered by then-Gov. Eliot Spitzer.

Under the current plan, the resort would comprise two complexes — one with a 250-room hotel and 139 townhouse-style lodging units surrounding an 18-hole golf course; the other with a 120-room hotel and spa, 60 lodging units in two buildings and another 60 detached units in up to 52 buildings. The deal also calls for about 1,200 acres of woodland near the resort to be sold by Crossroads to the state to be protected.

Joe Kelly of the Coalition to Save Belleayre criticized the request by the Catskill Heritage Alliance.

“We are baffled that at this particular time, when the very existence and operation of Belleayre Mountain is at stake, that the (alliance) would choose to take this position,” Kelly said, referring to the reduction of the ski center’s operating budget this season. “At a time when governments at every level in every country are developing economic stimulus packages to keep people working and create new jobs, it is absurd to call for a rollback of an economic stimulus already approved.”


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 19, 2008)

I really hope they build that resort and save Belleayre and the area..The fact that unless there is a ton of natural snow..5 less runs will be open sucks..along with the prospect of no spring skiing at Belleayre..they are shooting themselves in the foot..


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## dmc (Nov 19, 2008)

Well...  In this current financial crisis...  i think Bell needs to prove to us NY state taxpayers that they can operate with a profit...   AND that my tax $ is not going to a private company until the state can afford it...  I'm all for state run facilities that are managed correctly...   And I'm not for Bell closing...  I'm sympathetic to the local area but there's going to be a ton of NYers needing assistance to make it through the next couple of years...

Non- NYers please hold comments...


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## Starter Jackets Rule! (Nov 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I really hope they build that resort and save Belleayre and the area..The fact that unless there is a ton of natural snow..5 less runs will be open sucks..along with the prospect of no spring skiing at Belleayre..they are shooting themselves in the foot..



"along with the prospect of no spring skiing at Belleayre."

Wimps will stay home and post on the intra-net all day long  and real skiers will been seen earning their turns!


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 19, 2008)

Starter Jackets Rule! said:


> "along with the prospect of no spring skiing at Belleayre."
> 
> Wimps will stay home and post on the intra-net all day long  and real skiers will been seen earning their turns!



Wimps like me will be skiing other areas in April that still have their lifts open..for the past 4 seasons since I've been back in PA..I skied an April weekend at Belleayre..a nice alternative to the much longer drive to Vermont after the PA resorts close down..


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## YardSaleDad (Nov 19, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I really hope they build that resort and save Belleayre and the area.



Some people think NOT building the resort would be saving Belleayre.  It would be like building condos at Plattekill.


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## AdironRider (Nov 19, 2008)

Sad to say, but second tier mountains like Belleayre, Windham, Bromley, Bolton Valley, et all are going to be the first to go if this recession does indeed cause ski areas to close. The real small mom and pop places can run for peanuts on limited snowmaking and lodge offerings, and the big resorts like Stowe, Whiteface, Sunday River, etc can stay open cause theyre always going to have people come and a solid, east coast product. But alas, its the middle road players who have large infastructure investments and needs but not the terrain or product offerings of the big dogs that are going down. Bummer.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 19, 2008)

YardSaleDad said:


> Some people think NOT building the resort would be saving Belleayre.  It would be like building condos at Plattekill.



Think of all the jobs it would create and all the addition revenue it would bring in..plus people would visit in the summer for golf..


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## jtothewang (Nov 19, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Sad to say, but second tier mountains like Belleayre, Windham, Bromley, Bolton Valley, et all are going to be the first to go if this recession does indeed cause ski areas to close. The real small mom and pop places can run for peanuts on limited snowmaking and lodge offerings, and the big resorts like Stowe, Whiteface, Sunday River, etc can stay open cause theyre always going to have people come and a solid, east coast product. But alas, its the middle road players who have large infastructure investments and needs but not the terrain or product offerings of the big dogs that are going down. Bummer.


wondering when was the last time you saw a lift line at windham...i think they'll be okay...


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## hardline (Nov 20, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wimps like me will be skiing other areas in April that still have their lifts open..for the past 4 seasons since I've been back in PA..I skied an April weekend at Belleayre..a nice alternative to the much longer drive to Vermont after the PA resorts close down..



i gotta agree. i love spring at the bell. sitting on the deck is the tits.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Nov 20, 2008)

hardline said:


> i gotta agree. i love spring at the bell. sitting on the deck is the tits.



Plus when it's warm out you see lots of tits on the deck..lol


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## Starter Jackets Rule! (Nov 22, 2008)

hardline said:


> i gotta agree. i love spring at the bell. sitting on the deck is the tits.


Wa-Wa-Wa-WHAT you go there 2 sit on the deck??
Whats wrong with You!
(Just kidding, or am I)?


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## YardSaleDad (Nov 22, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Think of all the jobs it would create and all the addition revenue it would bring in..plus people would visit in the summer for golf..



Think of the extra taxes it would require to support the additional infrastructure required, and the Mom & Pop businesses that would be muscled out.  While the developer would like to sell it as the best thing since sliced bread, there are drawbacks to a resort.  On balance I think it would be a loss for the region.


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## MarkC (Nov 22, 2008)

YardSaleDad said:


> Think of the extra taxes it would require to support the additional infrastructure required, and the Mom & Pop businesses that would be muscled out.  While the developer would like to sell it as the best thing since sliced bread, there are drawbacks to a resort.  On balance I think it would be a loss for the region.



Which mom and pop businesses are you referring to?  Most of the business owners in the area I have talked to are in full support of the resort.  If you want to save on tax dollars how about giving Tony Lanza the boot and leasing the ski area to a private interest that has to turn a profit.


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## hardline (Nov 23, 2008)

Starter Jackets Rule! said:


> Wa-Wa-Wa-WHAT you go there 2 sit on the deck??
> Whats wrong with You!
> (Just kidding, or am I)?



dont know about you but after 1 or 2 its just mush so its great to sit have a few beers with friends and watch the kiddies fall on the rails and boxes. spring is all about chillin outside. take a que from the euros relax that mountain aint going anywhere. i guess im just not core enough for you.


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## catskills (Nov 23, 2008)

MarkC said:


> Which mom and pop businesses are you referring to?  Most of the business owners in the area I have talked to are in full support of the resort.  If you want to save on tax dollars how about giving Tony Lanza the boot and leasing the ski area to a private interest that has to turn a profit.


Before Tony Lanza was born the people of NY state voted on a proposition to create Belleayre Mountain Ski Area.  The people of NY State voted Belleayre Mountain Ski Area into the NY State Constitution.   It would take another vote by the people of NY State before Belleayre Mountain ski area could be sold to a private enterprise.  Given the state needs money,  maybe this is as good as time as any for the State to sell Belleayre and make some money.  Lets face it the state needs billions and not a few million it would get from Belleayre.  

My personal fear is if Belleayre were sold it may  follow the path of Brodie mountain, which was purchased by close neighbor and competitor Jimny Peak.  Jimny Peak put no money into Brodie and then sold it to a land developer with the stipulation it could never be used as a public ski area ever again.  

We need more ski areas not fewer ski areas.  I really don't think the folks that live and ski at Hunter and Windham want to see their lift lines increase by 20 percent.

BTW this lift at Belleayre was build in 1949 which was 10 years before Hunter Mountain Ski Bowl ever broke ground for its first lift.


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## Gerry Pallor (Nov 19, 2010)

*Picture is all wrong*

I produce the RadXSports videos and TV show, Belleayre is one of our sponsors. I am there more than is good for my own health. The picture of that single chair lift is not from Belleayre. It might be from High Mount,  a ski area adjacent to Belleayre that went out of business years ago.


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## Gerry Pallor (Nov 19, 2010)

*Unfortunately Unconstitutional*



MarkC said:


> Which mom and pop businesses are you referring to?  Most of the business owners in the area I have talked to are in full support of the resort.  If you want to save on tax dollars how about giving Tony Lanza the boot and leasing the ski area to a private interest that has to turn a profit.



I totally agree, it would be a great idea to lease Belleayre ski area to a private entity. Unfortunately it is expressly prohibited in the New York State Constitution - Article XIV, Section 1. 

"The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired,
constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever
kept as  wild  forest  lands.  They  shall  not  be  leased,  sold  or
exchanged,  or  be  taken  by  any corporation, public or private..."

Disclaimer - I produce the RadXSports videos, Belleayre is a sponsor and Tony Lanza hosts the show. Giving Tony the boot isn't the answer, although I think he might welcome the stress reduction.


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## 180 (Nov 19, 2010)

Gerry Pallor said:


> I produce the RadXSports videos and TV show, Belleayre is one of our sponsors. I am there more than is good for my own health. The picture of that single chair lift is not from Belleayre. It might be from High Mount,  a ski area adjacent to Belleayre that went out of business years ago.



Sorry Gerry, but that is definitely Belleayre Run.  You can see the 2 strips of farmland across the valley that are still there today.


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## Gerry Pallor (Nov 19, 2010)

180 said:


> Sorry Gerry, but that is definitely Belleayre Run.  You can see the 2 strips of farmland across the valley that are still there today.



Sorry 180 - there are no single seat chair lifts at Belleayre (there are 2 doubles on the lower mountain but the view is different), no lifts with wooden chairs, and the lift servicing Belleayre Run is a high speed quad. Next time you go down Deer Run look off to your left. At one point you'll see something close to that view and, if you look down through the woods, you'll see the remains of what I think is the lift in that picture.


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## thinnmann (Nov 19, 2010)

Gerry Pallor said:


> Sorry 180 - there are no single seat chair lifts at Belleayre (there are 2 doubles on the lower mountain but the view is different), no lifts with wooden chairs, and the lift servicing Belleayre Run is a high speed quad. Next time you go down Deer Run look off to your left. At one point you'll see something close to that view and, if you look down through the woods, you'll see the remains of what I think is the lift in that picture.



Dude, they tore it out.  god knows when.  It is Bell.


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## Rambo (Nov 19, 2010)

Gerry Pallor said:


> Sorry 180 - there are no single seat chair lifts at Belleayre (there are 2 doubles on the lower mountain but the view is different), no lifts with wooden chairs, and the lift servicing Belleayre Run is a high speed quad. Next time you go down Deer Run look off to your left. At one point you'll see something close to that view and, if you look down through the woods, you'll see the remains of what I think is the lift in that picture.



I have skied down Deer Run many times and have looked over at that chairlift next door at the old Highmount ski center and it is definately not the same lift in the pic of that old single chair which was probably Belleayre's first chairlift.

http://teachski.com/pcindex2004/AtoGnewyork.htm


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## mondeo (Nov 19, 2010)

Holy necro, Batman!


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## Gerry Pallor (Nov 19, 2010)

Sheesh, I've been skiing there for 10 yrs, so it must go back a while. Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine strikes again.


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## Gerry Pallor (Nov 19, 2010)

Rambo said:


> I have skied down Deer Run many times and have looked over at that chairlift next door at the old Highmount ski center and it is definately not the same lift in the pic of that old single chair which was probably Belleayre's first chairlift.
> 
> http://teachski.com/pcindex2004/AtoGnewyork.htm



You're right, the pic is from Belleayre's ancient history.


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## Rambo (Nov 19, 2010)

New York State to layoff Belleayre employees:
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/workers-1280488-protest-dec.html

HIGHMOUNT -- Workers from the Department of Environmenal Conservation's Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in Highmount will travel to Albany Thursday, to protest Governor Paterson's plan to lay off 898 workers.

Belleayre employees tell us 48 of the ski center's 55 permanent staffers were notified Tuesday that their positions are being eliminated.

"Our jobs include summer recreation...music festival set up and ...hiking, biking, and fishing...snow removers, groomers, ticket sellers, lift maintenance," says one employee who tells CBS 6 her job is being cut.

About 20 Belleayre workers say they plan to voice their frustration at the Capitol Thursday morning.


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## tjf67 (Nov 19, 2010)

Rambo said:


> New York State to layoff Belleayre employees:
> http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/workers-1280488-protest-dec.html
> 
> HIGHMOUNT -- Workers from the Department of Environmenal Conservation's Belleayre Mountain Ski Center in Highmount will travel to Albany Thursday, to protest Governor Paterson's plan to lay off 898 workers.
> ...




They sent out letter to anyone that could be affected.   Most of the 48 will not go.  A lot of bumping will be going on and that is the reason so many go  the letters.


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## dmc (Nov 19, 2010)

wow... that sucks..    Times is tough...

Hunter is hiring so maybe they can find work there..


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