# Ikon Pass Changes and New Resorts for 2023



## Zand (Mar 3, 2022)

Ikon Pass Adds Snowbasin, Sun Valley, Chamonix for 2022-23 Season, Drops Crystal from Unlimited Tier on Full Ikon Pass, Alta and Deer Valley Leave Base Pass for Base Plus
					

Snowbasin and Sun Valley Exit Epic Pass, will also join Mountain Collective




					www.stormskiing.com
				




Biggest news is Sun Valley, Chamonix and Snowbasin leaving Epic for Ikon and that Alta (but not Snowbird) and Deer Valley are no longer on Ikon Base.

Prices up $80 for the unlimited over this year's prices.


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## thebigo (Mar 3, 2022)

No Shawnee Peak.


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

I bet thise changes help make the utah experience better


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

thebigo said:


> No Shawnee Peak.


Is that good or bad in your eyes? I've gotta imagine the Shawnee regulars would be super bummed if it was on ikon in any form right?


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## Edd (Mar 3, 2022)

thebigo said:


> No Shawnee Peak.


Seems unlikely for them not to be on it.


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## thebigo (Mar 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> Is that good or bad in your eyes? I've gotta imagine the Shawnee regulars would be super bummed if it was on ikon in any form right?



More surprised than anything. Doubt Shawnee would be overrun either way. My daughter will have a number of races in the MWV next year, thought we would mix in a few nights but not that big of a deal. 4X Ragged, 2X pats midweek, 2X Ikon base will be by far the most I have ever spent on passes but still better than giving fail a penny.


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## Zand (Mar 3, 2022)

I'm sure Shawnee could be added at a later point if necessary. Did they announce their own pass products yet?


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## Zermatt (Mar 3, 2022)

"Make Skiing Expensive Again" is happening!

Maybe not, but hopefully the race to the bottom is over


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

Zand said:


> Ikon Pass Adds Snowbasin, Sun Valley, Chamonix for 2022-23 Season, Drops Crystal from Unlimited Tier on Full Ikon Pass, Alta and Deer Valley Leave Base Pass for Base Plus
> 
> 
> Snowbasin and Sun Valley Exit Epic Pass, will also join Mountain Collective
> ...


Completely as I predicted:  Alta leaves the Base but Snowbird does not.  This still means that LCC will be a mess.


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2022)

I'm glad to see them raise prices. Although whether that is enough to mitigate an influx of Epic skiers a bit depends on what Vail does with their pricing.


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## jaytrem (Mar 3, 2022)

Glad to see they're still doing the spring thing.  Doesn't help this year, but might for a Tahoe/Mammoth trip next year.  Sure is nice when you ski enough days to pay for the pass before the season even starts.  Kids will still be eligible for the child pass too.  Other option next year would be Utah, kids can get a 5th grade passport and then figure out what's most economical for me (would most likely have Epic and Indy already).


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 3, 2022)

how much did the price go up?  I mean $769 for the base is not that expensive...


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> how much did the price go up?  I mean $769 for the base is not that expensive...


The full went up $80 while the base went up $40. However the base also lost access to some mountains (Alta and Deer Valley)


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

I'm tempted to bite on ikon but I fear the epic migration gonna be real. Also it doesn't have much for daytrips coming from southern nh.


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## Tonyr (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Completely as I predicted:  Alta leaves the Base but Snowbird does not.  This still means that LCC will be a mess.


This is interesting. I'm not sure if the owners of Alta own all of the hotels and restaurants at the resort but the owners of Snowbird own everything on the the property. More crowds at Snowbird equals more opportunities to spend on hotels, shops, and restaurants which is why I'd guess they wouldn't mind the crowds as much. Alta definitely will be less crowded next season, the Mineral Basin lines are going to be an even bigger disaster on the weekends and powder days.


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> This is interesting. I'm not sure if the owners of Alta own all of the hotels and restaurants at the resort but the owners of Snowbird own everything on the the property. More crowds at Snowbird equals more opportunities to spend on hotels, shops, and restaurants which is why I'd guess they wouldn't mind the crowds as much. Alta definitely will be less crowded next season, the Mineral Basin lines are going to be an even bigger disaster on the weekends and powder days.


All the lodges at Alta are privately owned. The mid mtn restaurants used to be but the mountain bought them out.


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

First of likely many tough hits to vail this all is btw. They need to increase their prices but it's hard to justify if your value goes down. Maybe telluride will jump ship too someday


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## Zermatt (Mar 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> First of likely many tough hits to vail this all is btw. They need to increase their prices but it's hard to justify if your value goes down. Maybe telluride will jump ship too someday


Vail's answer will be to make their passes even cheaper to make up for the complaints this season and the loss of 3 resorts next season.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I bet thise changes help make the utah experience better



Well, I'd say it's bullish for Alta & Deer Valley, but very bearish for Snowbird.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> More crowds at Snowbird equals more opportunities to spend on hotels, shops, and restaurants which is why I'd guess they wouldn't mind the crowds as much.



My experience staying at a Snowbird hotel (2019) was so terrible that I cant fathom it with "more" crowds.  I'd never stay at a Snowbird property again unless I had confirmation it was fixed, or I had confirmation that there was going to be >= 12 inches of snow incoming (and it would be a 1 night stay). 

And I should note, I am NOT picky at all when it comes to hotels, but the incompetency, lack of employees, service closures (despite what their service posting said) and employee unhappiness was IMO over-the-top.


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## mikec142 (Mar 3, 2022)

I'm a full Ikon Pass holder.  Assuming that I renew my pass at the same level, was there anything that was removed for the upcoming year.   I see 14 unlimited destinations, but I thought there were 15 unlimited destinations for this year (I could be wrong).

The three additions are mighty interesting to me!


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## Tonyr (Mar 3, 2022)

Im not sure where you stayed but we stayed at the Cliff Lodge the last 2 seasons and had great experiences both times. The outside of the hotel doesn't look very inviting but the inside was just fully renovated and nicely done. The staff was great to us both times and the hotel has everything you need so you don't ever have to leave the property while your there.


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## thebigo (Mar 3, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I'm a full Ikon Pass holder.  Assuming that I renew my pass at the same level, was there anything that was removed for the upcoming year.   I see 14 unlimited destinations, but I thought there were 15 unlimited destinations for this year (I could be wrong).
> 
> The three additions are mighty interesting to me!


Crystal unlimited to seven days.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2022)

Wow, I was well-aware Vail races to close down its ski areas, but I never saw it laid it out like this to see just how stark it is:



> _ April 23 to 24, Ikoners could choose between Killington, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Sugarbush, Squaw Valley, Solitude, Winter Park, Mammoth, Crystal Mountain, Sunshine, Lake Louise, Norquay, Snowbird, Alta, Mount Bachelor, Summit Central, Alpental, Copper Mountain, Arapahoe Basin, and Snowmass.
> 
> Epic Pass holders could go to Breckenridge or Nakiska. _


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## Tonyr (Mar 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, I was well-aware Vail races to close down its ski areas, but I never saw it laid it out like this to see just how stark it is:



Yes that looks pretty bad seeing it all laid out like that.


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, I was well-aware Vail races to close down its ski areas, but I never saw it laid it out like this to see just how stark it is:


The real sucky part about this is in years past Breck was somewhat enjoyable that time of year when all the summit areas were open. Now it just funnels all those people into one resort so no more late April sleeper days.


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## machski (Mar 3, 2022)

thebigo said:


> More surprised than anything. Doubt Shawnee would be overrun either way. My daughter will have a number of races in the MWV next year, thought we would mix in a few nights but not that big of a deal. 4X Ragged, 2X pats midweek, 2X Ikon base will be by far the most I have ever spent on passes but still better than giving fail a penny.


Boyne has not announced New England Pass pricing or details yet.  They had said they may keep Shawnee separate.  We will see if it is added at any level to the NEP.  It would land there first before an Ikon landing.


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## jaytrem (Mar 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow, I was well-aware Vail races to close down its ski areas, but I never saw it laid it out like this to see just how stark it is:


Whistler (Blackcomb side) is open that weekend.


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## machski (Mar 3, 2022)

Interesting with all the added areas on the Base Plus pass that are off the base, how many will go full now?  I mean a full Ikon is only $110 more than the base Plus and all the blackouts go away with that.  Also interesting how they list Alta on the base +, almost makes it look like you get 5 days at Bird AND Alta on a base + vs 7 COMBINED on a full.  Hmmm.....


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> This is interesting. I'm not sure if the owners of Alta own all of the hotels and restaurants at the resort but the owners of Snowbird own everything on the the property. More crowds at Snowbird equals more opportunities to spend on hotels, shops, and restaurants which is why I'd guess they wouldn't mind the crowds as much. Alta definitely will be less crowded next season, the Mineral Basin lines are going to be an even bigger disaster on the weekends and powder days.


It was about appeasing passholders.  Alta is doing it.  At least they listened. 

As to the idea that hotels and restaurants generate the revenue to make up for a discounted day ticket, John Cumming and Snowbird still have not learned in four years that this conventional wisdom is simply not the case when most of the visitors are IKON passholders who live in their backyard.  They are not booking rooms or even ordering food.  So that means less revenue and an endless effort to "chase" revenue by doing things like Fast Tracks, changing prices on merchandise, or charging for other things.  Too bad they pissed away that $10 million book of season pass business......

As for me, this pretty much is it for me with Snowbird.  I will likely take a break from them next year.  Their service, accessibility, and product are all terrible.  The only thing they can do is take money.  Anything else is a mess.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

machski said:


> Interesting with all the added areas on the Base Plus pass that are off the base, how many will go full now?  I mean a full Ikon is only $110 more than the base Plus and all the blackouts go away with that.  Also interesting how they list Alta on the base +, almost makes it look like you get 5 days at Bird AND Alta on a base + vs 7 COMBINED on a full.  Hmmm.....


The whole Snowbird Only on Base vs. Alta/Snowbird day thing is going to confuse a whole lot of people and cause a lot of headaches.


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## jaytrem (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> As for me, this pretty much is it for me with Snowbird.  I will likely take a break from them next year.


So what's the plan for next year then?


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2022)

machski said:


> Interesting with all the added areas on the Base Plus pass that are off the base, how many will go full now?  I mean a full Ikon is only $110 more than the base Plus and all the blackouts go away with that.  Also interesting how they list Alta on the base +, almost makes it look like you get 5 days at Bird AND Alta on a base + vs 7 COMBINED on a full.  Hmmm.....



The comparison page looks pretty clear to me...


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> The comparison page looks pretty clear to me...
> 
> View attachment 53457
> 
> View attachment 53458


Makes sense to me and you, but we are not the "average" person.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

jaytrem said:


> So what's the plan for next year then?


Don't know.   If parking reservations are still the deal at Alta we will stay there.  Brighton Twilight season pass for me as well.  Boyne has got a lot of our business this year as has Alta.  

Hopefully your 5th Grader can get a Utah Passport that you mentioned.  Ski Utah all but killed it last year--the protests and pitchforks made them reconsider.  They had limited it to M-F non-holiday which no kid in school could reasonably use....


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> My experience staying at a Snowbird hotel (2019) was so terrible that I cant fathom it with "more" crowds.  I'd never stay at a Snowbird property again unless I had confirmation it was fixed, or I had confirmation that there was going to be >= 12 inches of snow incoming (and it would be a 1 night stay).
> 
> And I should note, I am NOT picky at all when it comes to hotels, but the incompetency, lack of employees, service closures (despite what their service posting said) and employee unhappiness was IMO over-the-top.



I stayed at the snowbird lodge at the base on Feb 2020 with a bunch of friends and we had a great time, everything was open and staffed, we were steps from the lifts, the hotel was never crowded, and the mountain was never crowded on the weekdays. Wtf are you talking about


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## snoseek (Mar 3, 2022)

If you're willing to shell out the cash to stay up in lcc any of the lodges over at Alta are an infinitely better experience. Lowest staff turnover rate in a resort setting I've seen by a huge margin. The staff down at Snowbird seemed saltier that the lake itself.


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## Tonyr (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> It was about appeasing passholders.  Alta is doing it.  At least they listened.
> 
> As to the idea that hotels and restaurants generate the revenue to make up for a discounted day ticket, John Cumming and Snowbird still have not learned in four years that this conventional wisdom is simply not the case when most of the visitors are IKON passholders who live in their backyard.  They are not booking rooms or even ordering food.  So that means less revenue and an endless effort to "chase" revenue by doing things like Fast Tracks, changing prices on merchandise, or charging for other things.  Too bad they pissed away that $10 million book of season pass business......
> 
> As for me, this pretty much is it for me with Snowbird.  I will likely take a break from them next year.  Their service, accessibility, and product are all terrible.  The only thing they can do is take money.  Anything else is a mess.


You may be right that not enough pass holders spend money at the resorts.  That was one of the complaints I've read from Stowe's local business owners. They get all the crowds but not much spend at the local businesses from all of the pass holders. I did notice though that the restaurants within the Cliff House were packed each night and the hotel was definitely sold out the week we were there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I stayed at the snowbird lodge at the base on Feb 2020 with a bunch of friends and we had a great time, everything was open and staffed, we were steps from the lifts, the hotel was never crowded, and the mountain was never crowded on the weekdays. Wtf are you talking about


It has gotten worse since then.  They expect people to jump up and down for $9.50 an hour.  Ain't happening.  And even with a slight increase they are not getting great people.  It's sad.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

snoseek said:


> If you're willing to shell out the cash to stay up in lcc any of the lodges over at Alta are an infinitely better experience. Lowest staff turnover rate in a resort setting I've seen by a huge margin. The staff down at Snowbird seemed saltier that the lake itself.


I never understood why they were bitter but now it is abundantly clear.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2022)

Tonyr said:


> You may be right that not enough pass holders spend money at the resorts.  That was one of the complaints I've read from Stowe's local business owners. They get all the crowds but not much spend at the local businesses from all of the pass holders. I did notice though that the restaurants within the Cliff House were packed each night and the hotel was definitely sold out the week we were there.


When did you visit?


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## jaytrem (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Don't know.   If parking reservations are still the deal at Alta we will stay there.  Brighton Twilight season pass for me as well.  Boyne has got a lot of our business this year as has Alta.
> 
> Hopefully your 5th Grader can get a Utah Passport that you mentioned.  Ski Utah all but killed it last year--the protests and pitchforks made them reconsider.  They had limited it to M-F non-holiday which no kid in school could reasonably use....


That would be two 5th graders, even better deal!  Wouldn't use it until April 6th to the 16th, so shouldn't be any blackouts unless they kill the weekends again.  That should be late enough to avoid most of the crowds.  Gotta keep an eye on closing dates this year.  Need to pick up Cherry Peak and Woodward.


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## Tonyr (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> When did you visit?


I was there last week got back on Sunday. Some sort of convention was going on while we were there.


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## ss20 (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> The whole Snowbird Only on Base vs. Alta/Snowbird day thing is going to confuse a whole lot of people and cause a lot of headaches.



That is the single question I have been asked the most by guests (how the 5/7 AltaBird days work).  I can't imagine next year how I'll explain it to people who ask me... better get a calculator and a flow chart!


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## cdskier (Mar 3, 2022)

ss20 said:


> That is the single question I have been asked the most by guests (how the 5/7 AltaBird days work).  I can't imagine next year how I'll explain it to people who ask me... better get a calculator and a flow chart!


It really shouldn't be that difficult to explain. Next year if you have the Base, you get 5 days at Snowbird only. If you have Base Plus, you get 5 days between Alta and Snowbird. If you have the full Ikon, you get 7 days between the two.


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## ss20 (Mar 3, 2022)

cdskier said:


> It really shouldn't be that difficult to explain. Next year if you have the Base, you get 5 days at Snowbird only. If you have Base Plus, you get 5 days between Alta and Snowbird. If you have the full Ikon, you get 7 days between the two.



Correct.  I should clarify...it is easy to explain, comprehension varies greatly!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Makes sense to me and you, but we are not the "average" person.



Doesnt make sense to me, but I am decidedly below average.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Wtf are you talking about



The most unhappy employees I've ever seen, to the point of awkwardness where they go out of their way to badmouth working conditions at Snowbird without ever being prompted or solicited.  It was weird.  Nice people, very disgruntled.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> The most unhappy employees I've ever seen, to the point of awkwardness where they go out of their way to badmouth working conditions at Snowbird without ever being prompted or solicited.  It was weird.  Nice people, very disgruntled.


Assuming that they don’t eff up what service they are supposed provide.


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## boston_e (Mar 4, 2022)

machski said:


> Boyne has not announced New England Pass pricing or details yet.  They had said they may keep Shawnee separate.  We will see if it is added at any level to the NEP.  It would land there first before an Ikon landing.


I'm not sure if it is a great comparison, but when Ikon first came out, Pico was not on it (even though Killington was).  It took maybe a year of discussion I think and even now there are not 7 days at each - it is 7 days total between the two.  I'd guess Boyne first needs to sort out what they want to do with Shawnee passes and then have the discussion with Ikon.


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## Zermatt (Mar 4, 2022)

PSA on Child Renewal:

I called Ikon today to ask if my son would get the renewal discount going from the child pass to the young adult pass (turns 13 this summer).  They said he would, but more importantly they noted that the pricing is based on the age at the time of purchase.  So for 22/23 season as long as I buy the pass this spring I would get the child pricing which is substantially cheaper than young adult.


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## machski (Mar 5, 2022)

Wow, the Crystal pass changes are a huge chunk increase.  $1699 now (1599 renew, I guess if you had a full Ikon this year??) just for Crystal!  Want the whole Ikon pass you had this year as a Crystal skier/rider?  That's an extra $300 on top of either price.  If you just need a Ikon Base added on, you save a whopping $50.  Who in their right minds would do that with the total $$ we're talking about?!  And obviously not this year, but is this the tip of the iceberg where skiing gets much more expensive again?  Because I highly doubt Crystal is cutting day ticket prices back next season.  Oh, and you have to reserve and pay to park next season too at Crystal.  You can add preferred parking all season (limited quantities) for another $400 I think, maybe pushes $500.  How many more will start following this model where your base resort is large dollars with an add on for the multi pass?


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## Tonyr (Mar 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Wow, the Crystal pass changes are a huge chunk increase.  $1699 now (1599 renew, I guess if you had a full Ikon this year??) just for Crystal!  Want the whole Ikon pass you had this year as a Crystal skier/rider?  That's an extra $300 on top of either price.  If you just need a Ikon Base added on, you save a whopping $50.  Who in their right minds would do that with the total $$ we're talking about?!  And obviously not this year, but is this the tip of the iceberg where skiing gets much more expensive again?  Because I highly doubt Crystal is cutting day ticket prices back next season.  Oh, and you have to reserve and pay to park next season too at Crystal.  You can add preferred parking all season (limited quantities) for another $400 I think, maybe pushes $500.  How many more will start following this model where your base resort is large dollars with an add on for the multi


This increase is certainly going to cut down the horrible overcrowding problems they have had.


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## Zermatt (Mar 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Wow, the Crystal pass changes are a huge chunk increase.  $1699 now (1599 renew, I guess if you had a full Ikon this year??) just for Crystal!  Want the whole Ikon pass you had this year as a Crystal skier/rider?  That's an extra $300 on top of either price.  If you just need a Ikon Base added on, you save a whopping $50.  Who in their right minds would do that with the total $$ we're talking about?!  And obviously not this year, but is this the tip of the iceberg where skiing gets much more expensive again?  Because I highly doubt Crystal is cutting day ticket prices back next season.  Oh, and you have to reserve and pay to park next season too at Crystal.  You can add preferred parking all season (limited quantities) for another $400 I think, maybe pushes $500.  How many more will start following this model where your base resort is large dollars with an add on for the multi pass?


This is not a bad thing. Make Skiing Expensive Again!

Giving away season pass literally ruined skiing.  The breakeven for season passes versus day tickets should not be 4 days.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Wow, the Crystal pass changes are a huge chunk increase.  $1699 now (1599 renew, I guess if you had a full Ikon this year??) just for Crystal!  Want the whole Ikon pass you had this year as a Crystal skier/rider?  That's an extra $300 on top of either price.  If you just need a Ikon Base added on, you save a whopping $50.  Who in their right minds would do that with the total $$ we're talking about?!  And obviously not this year, but is this the tip of the iceberg where skiing gets much more expensive again?  Because I highly doubt Crystal is cutting day ticket prices back next season.  Oh, and you have to reserve and pay to park next season too at Crystal.  You can add preferred parking all season (limited quantities) for another $400 I think, maybe pushes $500.  How many more will start following this model where your base resort is large dollars with an add on for the multi pass?


A guy from the Seattle area last week told me that there are over 45,000 IKON Passholders in the Seattle metro area….


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2022)

machski said:


> Wow, the Crystal pass changes are a huge chunk increase.  $1699 now (1599 renew, I guess if you had a full Ikon this year??) just for Crystal!  Want the whole Ikon pass you had this year as a Crystal skier/rider?  That's an extra $300 on top of either price.  If you just need a Ikon Base added on, you save a whopping $50.  Who in their right minds would do that with the total $$ we're talking about?!  And obviously not this year, but is this the tip of the iceberg where skiing gets much more expensive again?  Because I highly doubt Crystal is cutting day ticket prices back next season.  Oh, and you have to reserve and pay to park next season too at Crystal.  You can add preferred parking all season (limited quantities) for another $400 I think, maybe pushes $500.  How many more will start following this model where your base resort is large dollars with an add on for the multi pass?



I think Crystal and Washington State in general is kind of unique.  The Seattle area has exploded in population the past 30 years.  The amount of ski terrain has not.  So pushing prices might be more needed there


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## machski (Mar 5, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> A guy from the Seattle area last week told me that there are over 45,000 IKON Passholders in the Seattle metro area….


Ok, and what is the breakdown of base to full?  Because that was a huge difference this season (5 days vs unlimited access).


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## machski (Mar 5, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think Crystal and Washington State in general is kind of unique.  The Seattle area has exploded in population the past 30 years.  The amount of ski terrain has not.  So pushing prices might be more needed there


True, and the dead end highway hasn't gotten any wider, nor the parking space any larger.  The parking part is part of the first phase of improvements at Crystal 

I think an even bigger concern (after all, fr-sun you have to reserve parking ahead of time so they already filter guest capacity) is the likely exodus from Stevens and Epic in the PNW and feeling they needed to build a most to not overload their pass base any more.  Will be interesting to see what Boyne may counter with at Snoqualmie.  They are now the likely Epic exodus mass landing point.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2022)

machski said:


> Ok, and what is the breakdown of base to full?  Because that was a huge difference this season (5 days vs unlimited access).


He didn’t say


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 6, 2022)

machski said:


> Wow, the Crystal pass changes are a huge chunk increase.  $1699 now (1599 renew, I guess if you had a full Ikon this year??) just for Crystal!  Want the whole Ikon pass you had this year as a Crystal skier/rider?  That's an extra $300 on top of either price.  If you just need a Ikon Base added on, you save a whopping $50.  Who in their right minds would do that with the total $$ we're talking about?!  And obviously not this year, but is this the tip of the iceberg where skiing gets much more expensive again?  Because I highly doubt Crystal is cutting day ticket prices back next season.  Oh, and you have to reserve and pay to park next season too at Crystal.  You can add preferred parking all season (limited quantities) for another $400 I think, maybe pushes $500.  How many more will start following this model where your base resort is large dollars with an add on for the multi pass?



You act like this is a bad thing. Crystal has been particularly negatively effected by all this bullshit. I hope Ikon continues to raise prices year over year. Enough of this nonsense already.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I think Crystal and Washington State in general is kind of unique.  The Seattle area has exploded in population the past 30 years.  The amount of ski terrain has not.  So pushing prices might be more needed there



Not that unique when Salt Lake City and Denver are going thru the same shit. Both cities and seattle that I used to Long to move to, now I am so glad I never did, because of the ski crowding.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Not that unique when Salt Lake City and Denver are going thru the same shit. Both cities and seattle that I used to Long to move to, now I am so glad I never did, because of the ski crowding.



Sure, but I'd say Washington is a bit worse off.  Look at the population of those states

Washington 7.7M people
Colorado 5.7M 
Utah 3.2M

Then look at the available skiing facilities in driving range of Seattle, Denver and SLC.  There is a HUGE amount more ski terrain available for Denver and SLC.  Their issues are more related to transportation than actual chairlifts and trails.  

That's why I think the situation in WA/Seattle is a bit more dire.   They could build another 5 Crystal Mountains and still be well behind CO and UT in regards to available terrain within short distance of Seattle vs Denver and SLC.  Washington also has the issue of limited lodging at their ski areas in comparison to CO and UT. 

It will be interesting to see how the other local ski areas react to Crystals changes with pricing.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 6, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Sure, but I'd say Washington is a bit worse off.  Look at the population of those states
> 
> Washington 7.7M people
> Colorado 5.7M
> ...



That’s all true, but one thing that’s nice about seattle particularly compared to Denver, and you touch on this with “transportation” is the ski areas are generally down different roads. Stevens is on 2, snoqualmie/alpental on 90, Crystal I forget the road but it’s a different one south of town. Baker you drive north from seattle. White pass you drive south. BC close enough too.

Denver for the most part you drive down 70 and it’s a nightmare every sat morning and Sunday evening. 

SLC is kind of like seattle in that the ski areas are at least down multiple different routes - lcc, bcc, park city, Ogden. 

Denver is such a bottleneck.


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## machski (Mar 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> That’s all true, but one thing that’s nice about seattle particularly compared to Denver, and you touch on this with “transportation” is the ski areas are generally down different roads. Stevens is on 2, snoqualmie/alpental on 90, Crystal I forget the road but it’s a different one south of town. Baker you drive north from seattle. White pass you drive south. BC close enough too.
> 
> Denver for the most part you drive down 70 and it’s a nightmare every sat morning and Sunday evening.
> 
> ...


True on I-70 for Denver, but that has been the case since I interned out there in '95 traffic wise.  Widening I-70 isn't happening anytime soon given the $$ it would cost to widen the Eisenhower.  Then the legal and environmental challenges.  Better to visit and park it in the mountains for the stay than move to Denver.  Unless you can work and completely avoid weekends.


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## machski (Mar 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> You act like this is a bad thing. Crystal has been particularly negatively effected by all this bullshit. I hope Ikon continues to raise prices year over year. Enough of this nonsense already.


Not necessarily a bad thing, but if this begins a trend industrywide, could be.  I mean if they want to go back to base area season passes for all access and 7 or so days unlimited add ons, fine.  But I'd those base all access single or small group (IE NEP pass) are going to cost big $$ and they do nothing to lower day ticket access costs, then yes this will be a start to a negative trend.  The other thing with Crystal is they already pulsed their visits with paid parking and pre reservations required to access (or the bus I suppose).  Not sure why they need to break off their pass to such a high cost AND keep all the parking payments and restrictions.  

I see Deer Valley this year is also allowing it's pass holders to add a full Ikon for $300 as well (though the DV full access pass is $2675 then add the $300!).  So the question is, how long til Alterra pivots more of their resorts to this.  I would bet money Steamboat and Palisades would be the next in line, maybe Mammoth too.


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## pinion247 (Mar 6, 2022)

These changes cannot come fast enough for DV. 8” of powder overnight and full lots by 9:30a, cars parked all around Deer Valley Drive, full buses. Turns a nice ski area into a complete shitshow. Though apparently none of these folks can seem to make their way into Triangle Trees. Where I type this. Alone with my thoughts


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2022)

pinion247 said:


> These changes cannot come fast enough for DV. 8” of powder overnight and full lots by 9:30a, cars parked all around Deer Valley Drive, full buses. Turns a nice ski area into a complete shitshow. Though apparently none of these folks can seem to make their way into Triangle Trees. Where I type this. Alone with my thoughts


So much for limiting ticket sales.  Edgar Stern is rolling in his grave.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> You act like this is a bad thing. Crystal has been particularly negatively effected by all this bullshit. I hope Ikon continues to raise prices year over year. Enough of this nonsense already.



im replying to myself to say i also think ikon shouldnt be unlimited anywhere. maybe fully owned destinations get 10 days each, but not unlimited. unlimited passes should be for indivdual mountains and they shoudlnt be inexpensive.


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## Zand (Mar 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im replying to myself to say i also think ikon shouldnt be unlimited anywhere. maybe fully owned destinations get 10 days each, but not unlimited. unlimited passes should be for indivdual mountains and they shoudlnt be inexpensive.


I feel like they only have unlimited destinations to make sure they stay competitive with Epic. Otherwise I don't disagree that it should probably be limited everywhere.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2022)

Zand said:


> I feel like they only have unlimited destinations to make sure they stay competitive with Epic. Otherwise I don't disagree that it should probably be limited everywhere.


Almost all of IKON’s unlimited destinations are company-owned.  The only ones that are not are operated by POWDR.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 6, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im replying to myself to say i also think ikon shouldnt be unlimited anywhere. maybe fully owned destinations get 10 days each, but not unlimited. unlimited passes should be for indivdual mountains and they shoudlnt be inexpensive.


We’re starting to see the cheap “come along” deals slowly disappear.  Major real estate developments planned at Deer Valley (completely unnecessary), Crystal, and Steamboat (to some extent).  That’s a big sign to me.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2022)

thetrailboss said:


> Almost all of IKON’s unlimited destinations are company-owned.  The only ones that are not are operated by POWDR.


Boyne too


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## thebigo (Mar 7, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Boyne too


All of the boyne properties on ikon are limited days.


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## Zermatt (Mar 7, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> im replying to myself to say i also think ikon shouldnt be unlimited anywhere. maybe fully owned destinations get 10 days each, but not unlimited. unlimited passes should be for indivdual mountains and they shoudlnt be inexpensive.


This would start to restore the world order, for skiing at least.  I think cutting to 7-10 days for fully owned destinations is probably not enough though, 10 days is a lot of skiing for a vast majority of skiers.

For me, it wouldn't change anything.  27 days between Stratton, Sugarbush and Killington/Pico is plenty.  For homeowners at Stratton for example a full season pass would seem logical but maybe for only some members of the family as 10 days might be plenty.  Then it marries them to the mountain for longer vacations instead of the easy option of going out west to use your other days.  Maybe full season pass holders also get a free Ikon Base pass.

I'll say it again.  Stop giving sweetheart pass deals to college age kids (at least for weekend access), they are the worst customers.  Start giving away mid-week non holiday passes (like $100-$200 for a season).


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## RichT (Mar 7, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> This would start to restore the world order, for skiing at least.  I think cutting to 7-10 days for fully owned destinations is probably not enough though, 10 days is a lot of skiing for a vast majority of skiers.
> 
> For me, it wouldn't change anything.  27 days between Stratton, Sugarbush and Killington/Pico is plenty.  For homeowners at Stratton for example a full season pass would seem logical but maybe for only some members of the family as 10 days might be plenty.  Then it marries them to the mountain for longer vacations instead of the easy option of going out west to use your other days.  Maybe full season pass holders also get a free Ikon Base pass.
> 
> I'll say it again.  Stop giving sweetheart pass deals to college age kids (at least for weekend access), they are the worst customers.  Start giving away mid-week non holiday passes (like $100-$200 for a season).


As a retiree, don't touch my weekday pass!!!


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> This would start to restore the world order, for skiing at least.  I think cutting to 7-10 days for fully owned destinations is probably not enough though, 10 days is a lot of skiing for a vast majority of skiers.
> 
> For me, it wouldn't change anything.  27 days between Stratton, Sugarbush and Killington/Pico is plenty.  For homeowners at Stratton for example a full season pass would seem logical but maybe for only some members of the family as 10 days might be plenty.  Then it marries them to the mountain for longer vacations instead of the easy option of going out west to use your other days.  Maybe full season pass holders also get a free Ikon Base pass.
> 
> I'll say it again.  Stop giving sweetheart pass deals to college age kids (at least for weekend access), they are the worst customers.  Start giving away mid-week non holiday passes (like $100-$200 for a season).


I'm relatively new to the season pass game.  For years I survived with quad packs at Sugarbush and trying to get whatever deals I could elsewhere (often paying a lot for a last minute day ticket).  If full Ikon went to a limited number of days at Sugarbush, I'd be genuinely pissed.  SB is a 5.5 hour trip.  Even though I ski there more than anywhere else, I wouldn't want to be locked into a pass that was SB only or one that limited my time there.

I fully understand the angst that Alta/Jackson Hole/etc. skiers endure.  But I'm not ready for wholesale changes.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

A model that could work is having the base pass with no unlimited resorts. Then the next step up you could select a “home” mountain for unlimited skiing and only 3-5 days each at other resorts. Could be complicated since Alterra doesn’t own everything thats on IKON. Still would work for Sugarbush/Stratton though. 

One thing is for sure these cheap unlimited passes are a bane to both locals and people who regularly ski the same mountain. Especially on weekends.


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## Zermatt (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I'm relatively new to the season pass game.  For years I survived with quad packs at Sugarbush and trying to get whatever deals I could elsewhere (often paying a lot for a last minute day ticket).  If full Ikon went to a limited number of days at Sugarbush, I'd be genuinely pissed.  SB is a 5.5 hour trip.  Even though I ski there more than anywhere else, I wouldn't want to be locked into a pass that was SB only or one that limited my time there.
> 
> I fully understand the angst that Alta/Jackson Hole/etc. skiers endure.  But I'm not ready for wholesale changes.


How many days do you ski at SB?  If you own property (or have access to property) then paying for unlimited use is worth the premium to restore the skiing experience. It's called skiing after all, not "standing in line."  If you don't own property then 7 days is plenty because you get 7 more at Killington and 7 more at Stratton.....

Don't worry. I don't see this changing anytime soon.  The 22/23 season is already set.

A full season pass at JHMR is on the order of $2,500+ I believe.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> A model that could work is having the base pass with no unlimited resorts. Then the next step up you could select a “home” mountain for unlimited skiing and only 3-5 days each at other resorts. Could be complicated since Alterra doesn’t own everything thats on IKON. Still would work for Sugarbush/Stratton though.
> 
> One thing is for sure these cheap unlimited passes are a bane to both locals and people who regularly ski the same mountain. Especially on weekends.



I've long thought it would make sense to have to pick a "home" mountain with passes like Ikon where you get unlimited there and then everywhere else (even the ones owned by Alterra) have limits. I don't think it would be that complicated as Alterra could simply limit your "home" mountain choices to the ones they currently offer as unlimited options (i.e. mainly the ones they own). It would still have a ton of flexibility and value even with having to pick a home mountain for most people.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> A model that could work is having the base pass with no unlimited resorts. Then the next step up you could select a “home” mountain for unlimited skiing and only 3-5 days each at other resorts. Could be complicated since Alterra doesn’t own everything thats on IKON. Still would work for Sugarbush/Stratton though.
> 
> One thing is for sure these cheap unlimited passes are a bane to both locals and people who regularly ski the same mountain. Especially on weekends.


I appreciate your thoughts.  That said, the places where Ikon has (supposedly) overwhelmed the system has already limited days to 5-7.  Alta/Snowbird/Big Sky/Jackson/etc.  Would it make a material difference to limit those places to 3-5 days?  If so, you'd have to significantly lower the price of the pass as it would provide a lot less value.

As a guy who gets between 10-15 at Sugarbush per year, I haven't noticed huge lines or issues.  I get that some locals and regulars pine for the old days and the way it was...but I ski SB pretty much every Christmas/MLK/President's Day Weekend and I rarely run into any issues.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> How many days do you ski at SB?  If you own property (or have access to property) then paying for unlimited use is worth the premium to restore the skiing experience. It's called skiing after all, not "standing in line."  If you don't own property then 7 days is plenty because you get 7 more at Killington and 7 more at Stratton.....
> 
> Don't worry. I don't see this changing anytime soon.  The 22/23 season is already set.
> 
> A full season pass at JHMR is on the order of $2,500+ I believe.


I ski at SB 10-15x a season and don't own property there.  I get that I could use my 7 days at Killington and Stratton.  Neither of which has the soul/vibe of SB and in the case of Stratton, the terrain isn't comparable.

You're right...nothing is changing soon so I'm not exactly worried.  But in the case of SB, in the past 2-3 years I can't remember waiting in line for more than a few minutes with the exception of the Castlerock lift and its designed to have a very low uphill capacity.

I appreciate the response.


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## Zermatt (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I ski at SB 10-15x a season and don't own property there.  I get that I could use my 7 days at Killington and Stratton.  Neither of which has the soul/vibe of SB and in the case of Stratton, the terrain isn't comparable.
> 
> You're right...nothing is changing soon so I'm not exactly worried.  But in the case of SB, in the past 2-3 years I can't remember waiting in line for more than a few minutes with the exception of the Castlerock lift and its designed to have a very low uphill capacity.
> 
> I apprciate the response.


SB has held up well since it is not easy to get to and has limited places to stay locally, so may not be the best example.

The places that are an easy trip from cities with millions of people are hit the hardest (Denver, Salt Lake, Seattle for example).  Anything with unlimited access in the 2 hour drive range is just trashed on the weekends and criminal on holiday weekends.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I've long thought it would make sense to have to pick a "home" mountain with passes like Ikon where you get unlimited there and then everywhere else (even the ones owned by Alterra) have limits. I don't think it would be that complicated as Alterra could simply limit your "home" mountain choices to the ones they currently offer as unlimited options (i.e. mainly the ones they own). It would still have a ton of flexibility and value even with having to pick a home mountain for most people.


I'm with you.  I understand how this would work, but the cost of the pass would have to be reduced.  Nobody is going to purchase something that they get today for $1x when the next time you purchase it costs the same $1x but you receive less value.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I'm with you.  I understand how this would work, but the cost of the pass would have to be reduced.  Nobody is going to purchase something that they get today for $1x when the next time you purchase it costs the same $1x but you receive less value.



thats the idea. more expensive, less free shit, less people buying, restoration of sanity.

if you ski 15 days at any place, you should have a season pass to that place, not some multi-pass.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> SB has held up well since it is not easy to get to and has limited places to stay locally, so may not be the best example.
> 
> The places that are an easy trip from cities with millions of people are hit the hardest (Denver, Salt Lake, Seattle for example).  Anything with unlimited access in the 2 hour drive range is just trashed on the weekends and criminal on holiday weekends.


I 100% understand that.  Which is why I mentioned Alta/Bird, etc. as facing issues.

Side note, I skied Vail over this past Presidents Day weekend.  Skied Thur/Fri/Sat/Sun.  It was a father/daughter trip and we had an extremely generous host who paid for an instructor to ski with us all four days which allowed us to cut the lines.  It wouldn't have made a huge difference on Thur/Fri, but man was it appreciated on Sat/Sun.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thats the idea. more expensive, less free shit, less people buying, restoration of sanity.
> 
> if you ski 15 days at any place, you should have a season pass to that place, not some multi-pass.


This season has been a bit of an aberation for me.  But last season I skied 13 days at Sugarbush, 2 days at Windham, and 3 days at Aspen.  Addtionally, I used 7 of my ten friends and family passes for my kids at Sugarbush.  If I had a season pass to Sugarbush alone, I most likely would have paid more for that pass and still had to pay for the other 5 ski days and the approximately $150 savings I got from the F&F.

You ski SB a lot.  Unless we have totally different definitions of crowded, I don't understand what you're referring to as a restoration of sanity.  If you're talking about what's happening at Alta/Crystal/etc.  Maybe...but considering I'm lucky to get out west once a season, I'm not too worried about it.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 7, 2022)

then in my opinion you should be a sugarbush season pass holder with an ikon base add on. and sugarbush should give you some sort of season pass holder friends and family deals, not ikon. and you should spend more money - we all should.

this is all meaningless anyway because this is just me thinking out loud. i just strongly believe that full season passes should be expensive and limited to single mountains, and that multi passes should be limited and also more expensive.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 7, 2022)

I agree Kusty. A season pass should not cost 4-5 days to breakeven, thats insane. Multi mountain passes should be expensive and not unlimited. Day tickets need to come down as well because at this point their function is to make season passes more alluring.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> then in my opinion you should be a sugarbush season pass holder with an ikon base add on. and sugarbush should give you some sort of season pass holder friends and family deals, not ikon. and you should spend more money - we all should.
> 
> this is all meaningless anyway because this is just me thinking out loud. i just strongly believe that full season passes should be expensive and limited to single mountains, and that multi passes should be limited and also more expensive.


As you said, it's all meaningless.  

Until two years ago, the cost of a SB full pass amortized over the amount that I ski didn't make sense.  It only started to make sense when they went Ikon and Windham was added.

Now, SB gets me there more than I previously would have been and I spend on lodging and food.


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> As you said, it's all meaningless.
> 
> Until two years ago, the cost of a SB full pass amortized over the amount that I ski didn't make sense.  It only started to make sense when they went Ikon and Windham was added.
> 
> Now, SB gets me there more than I previously would have been and I spend on lodging and food.



thats my whole point tho. theyve made it too easy to make sense. it needs to be harder.

the predecessor of ikon was the max pass. that was it for me. 5 days each at great places. not enough anywhere to meaningfully fuck their operations every week.


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> I'm with you.  I understand how this would work, but the cost of the pass would have to be reduced.  Nobody is going to purchase something that they get today for $1x when the next time you purchase it costs the same $1x but you receive less value.



I disagree that they'd have to reduce the cost of the pass to do it with the "only unlimited as your home mountain" setup. A stand-alone SB pass was around $1200 not too long ago. Honestly I think that was a pretty fair price simply for SB. If they were to charge that price for a pass that gave you unlimited at SB PLUS a certain number of days at all the other Ikon resorts, I think that's a pretty amazing value. The only people that really would actually "lose" on that are people that use the pass for a good number of days at multiple resorts that are unlimited today. So if someone is splitting time at Stratton and SB...they might not be happy. 

Again though, this is all irrelevant at least for another year since we know a change like this isn't happening this coming year.


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## mikec142 (Mar 7, 2022)

cdskier said:


> I disagree that they'd have to reduce the cost of the pass to do it with the "only unlimited as your home mountain" setup. A stand-alone SB pass was around $1200 not too long ago. Honestly I think that was a pretty fair price simply for SB. If they were to charge that price for a pass that gave you unlimited at SB PLUS a certain number of days at all the other Ikon resorts, I think that's a pretty amazing value. The only people that really would actually "lose" on that are people that use the pass for a good number of days at multiple resorts that are unlimited today. So if someone is splitting time at Stratton and SB...they might not be happy.
> 
> Again though, this is all irrelevant at least for another year since we know a change like this isn't happening this coming year.


All fair points.  And you're right.  Irrelevant for now.

Two caveats.  First is that there is a cohort of people that would actually lose.  Second, you're a SB regular, have you noticed any unusual crowding that I haven't seen?


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## boston_e (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> As you said, it's all meaningless.
> 
> Until two years ago, the cost of a SB full pass amortized over the amount that I ski didn't make sense.  It only started to make sense when they went Ikon and Windham was added.
> 
> *Now, SB gets me there more than I previously would have been and I spend on lodging and food.*



I think this is the exact point Krusty is making - you end up going to Sugarbush more because of the insanely cheap multi resort mountain pass which is unlimited at Sugarbush.  

I don't blame you for doing so, since those are the passes being offered, but when you multiply that by many many people it increases the crowds and degrades the skiing experience.

I think there is validity in the point that all these season passes are too easy to justify for people, which has increased overall crowding.

(I should add that I have not been to Sugarbush in the IKON era, so i can't comment on what the crowds have done in the past few years, but I understand the point Krusty is making)


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## cdskier (Mar 7, 2022)

mikec142 said:


> All fair points.  And you're right.  Irrelevant for now.
> 
> Two caveats.  First is that there is a cohort of people that would actually lose.  Second, you're a SB regular, have you noticed any unusual crowding that I haven't seen?



To be fair, I think some "loss" is acceptable because as others have stated, many of these passes are offering TOO good of a deal.

That said the crowding question is very difficult to accurately answer because I feel the data set is somewhat limited. Last year was impacted by all the travel restrictions so you can't use that data. This year has been so up and down weather wise with both extreme cold on weekends plus extreme thaws that I feel that skews it as well. There are some days that "seem" more crowded while there are also other days that seem less crowded than you would expect. But I also have to ask, what time-frame are people comparing crowds against? I mentioned it at some previous point in another thread, but I feel like SB in general started seeing more "crowds" with the advent of the quad pack tickets. I don't know that there's a noticeable difference between the "Pre-Ikon but cheap quad pack" era vs the "Ikon" era. However if you compare Ikon to pre-quad pack, then maybe yes. 

The "storm" days do seem more crowded, but again there are a lot of variables at play. People in general seem more aware of storms now and "hunt" them more compared to years ago (at least in my view). Storms being hyped on the Internet so much these days is a factor that can't be ignored. With remote work being more viable, you also have more people that will get up to the mountains earlier to beat a storm there. That was more difficult to do in the past unless you were willing to use a vacation day in some cases.

There also seems to be a slightly different clientele on the mountain now and for some of them I don't think SB is really the right "fit". You've had some new people to SB via Ikon that haven't been impressed with it (they complain about not enough snowmaking, not enough grooming, etc). If those people choose not to come back, maybe SB's crowds drop a bit and we'll get back to having more of the people that love SB for what makes it unique and less of the new people that want substantial changes. Whenever you have a disruptive change, it takes time to reach stabilization to understand the true impact.


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## Teleskier (Mar 7, 2022)

Playing Devil’s Advocate…

Don't we already have what Krusty is pushing for now - in the form of the Haystack Hermitage and Deer Valley?

Higher prices, higher class clientele, more untracked powder, concierge class snow experiences, less skiers, less cars, less kids, less riff raff, less snowboarders, less newbie first-timers… More mountain for solely you.

No more hot dogs in the caf, replaced with $50 wagu beef entrees. No more PBR, replaced with bottles of Veuve Cliquot.

Curiously enough, one can make the same arguments about air travel. It used to be civil and elegant when afforded by the few. Now with lower prices it’s become akin to taking the public bus.

“Make flying expensive again”

I wonder if the "exclusive private club" ski resorts will see an uptick. "I'll pay more money for a higher quality product to escape the NYC crowds."

Heck, I was spoiled by having an entire gondola to myself during COVID. Sharing one now with its tiny enclosed space with 8 other unmasked people for 20-minutes feels akin to torture by comparison.

Then again, shopping Newbury Street (higher prices, lower crowds) was always different than Filene's Basement (low prices, big crowds). It's the same dynamic playing out - flying, skiing, retail.


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## pinion247 (Mar 7, 2022)

I get what you are saying but both Deer Valley and Hermitage are experiencing increased crowds relative to prior years due to increased popularity of the sport  and their brands - DV very much so to the point of weekend insanity, and Hermitage to the point that weekends sometimes have something resembling a lift line. And though Hermitage is still “exclusive”, DV is not unless you snowboard.


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## Apple Country (Mar 7, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> Playing Devil’s Advocate…
> 
> Don't we already have what Krusty is pushing for now - in the form of the Haystack Hermitage and Deer Valley?
> 
> Higher prices, higher class clientele, more untracked powder, concierge class snow experiences, less skiers, less cars, less kids, less riff raff, less snowboarders, less newbie first-timers… More mountain for solely you.


Isn't any mountain not on a pass kind of like this? Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Bretton Woods come to mind. A unrestricted Bromley pass right around $1000.


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## Teleskier (Mar 7, 2022)

Apple Country said:


> Isn't any mountain not on a pass kind of like this? Bromley, MRG, Smuggs, Bretton Woods come to mind. A unrestricted Bromley pass right around $1000.


Good point. The 'hidden gems' club.


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## boston_e (Mar 7, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> Playing Devil’s Advocate…
> 
> Don't we already have what Krusty is pushing for now - in the form of the Haystack Hermitage and Deer Valley?
> 
> ...



Eh - I'm not really feeling the comparison between a private members only club and a hypothetical $1100-ish Sugarbush-only pass when compared to a 13 destination unlimited pass plus another 5 days at 30 other resorts for $769.


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## Teleskier (Mar 7, 2022)

It's all just a matter of degree, no? Hand over $10,000 and you're in the club vs $2,500 vs $1,500 vs $700 to be in the club. (Club "Ski Whenever You Want")


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 7, 2022)

Teleskier said:


> Playing Devil’s Advocate…
> 
> Don't we already have what Krusty is pushing for now - in the form of the Haystack Hermitage and Deer Valley?
> 
> ...



eww. no. thats not what im talking about all and i'm well on record of preferring dirtbag skiing to any of that shit you list. im not talking about bullshit faux luxe exclusivity. im talking about skiing costing a reasonable amount of money so every resort isnt garbage every weekend.


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## ss20 (Mar 7, 2022)

After 10 years of this garbage the bean counters finally found the bottom.  Not enough staff to run services or even lifts.  Parking lots full by 9:30am every weekend.  Tons of unhappy customers.  Can't wait to start going the other way.  

I hope people return to the smaller, feeder hills this sport was built on.


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## snoseek (Mar 8, 2022)

ss20 said:


> After 10 years of this garbage the bean counters finally found the bottom.  Not enough staff to run services or even lifts.  Parking lots full by 9:30am every weekend.  Tons of unhappy customers.  Can't wait to start going the other way.
> 
> I hope people return to the smaller, feeder hills this sport was built on.


I'm on the tail end of a two week trip in Colorado with an epic pass and most of my time has been skiing bell to bell at powderhorn. I am sold on the mellow local hill experience at this point whether east of west. My one day at vail and one day at beaver creek were not nearly as enjoyable.


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## Smellytele (Mar 8, 2022)

To me it’s more about the price of a day ticket (and no longer any deals out there) when compared to a season pass. When it takes less than 5 days to justify a season pass.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> To me it’s more about the price of a day ticket (and no longer any deals out there) when compared to a season pass. When it takes less than 5 days to justify a season pass.


The uber high day ticket prices function is to drive people to purchase season passes. Then people will buy a pass, even if they only plan on one trip a year and it locks them in.


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## x10003q (Mar 8, 2022)

Zermatt said:


> How many days do you ski at SB?  If you own property (or have access to property) then paying for unlimited use is worth the premium to restore the skiing experience. It's called skiing after all, not "standing in line."  If you don't own property then 7 days is plenty because you get 7 more at Killington and 7 more at Stratton.....
> 
> Don't worry. I don't see this changing anytime soon.  The 22/23 season is already set.
> 
> A full season pass at JHMR is on the order of $2,500+ I believe.


Alterra already knows that if you mainly ski at SB, unlimited Stratton vs 7 day Stratton does not matter. It is purely marketing and unlimited sounds better. SB and Stratton are over 2 hours apart and probably very little cross visitation. The regular at SB might visit Stratton once or twice per season. The same is true for a Stratton regular. If a regular at Stratton takes a week at SB, most of those days are midweek, so that does not matter for crowding, either. 

If you are a weekend day tripper, are you going to lock in only at the unlimited SB and unlimited Stratton or are you going to stop in at the other 5/7 day choices?

In the East, the other unlimited choices are Snowshoe, WVA, Mt Tremblant, Quebec, and Blue Mtn, Ontario. Ikon unlimited in the East is really a non-issue.


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## Smellytele (Mar 8, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> The uber high day ticket prices function is to drive people to purchase season passes. Then people will buy a pass, even if they only plan on one trip a year and it locks them in.


Oh I know but it is still the problem


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## Vortex (Mar 8, 2022)

Boyne Posted its pass prices. Getting the Platinum that give you the Ikon Base.  Looks like the same deal  basically as last year, in for 2.


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## nycskier (Mar 8, 2022)

x10003q said:


> Alterra already knows that if you mainly ski at SB, unlimited Stratton vs 7 day Stratton does not matter. It is purely marketing and unlimited sounds better. SB and Stratton are over 2 hours apart and probably very little cross visitation. The regular at SB might visit Stratton once or twice per season. The same is true for a Stratton regular. If a regular at Stratton takes a week at SB, most of those days are midweek, so that does not matter for crowding, either.
> 
> If you are a weekend day tripper, are you going to lock in only at the unlimited SB and unlimited Stratton or are you going to stop in at the other 5/7 day choices?
> 
> In the East, the other unlimited choices are Snowshoe, WVA, Mt Tremblant, Quebec, and Blue Mtn, Ontario. Ikon unlimited in the East is really a non-issue.


Very true. To get to SB from NY area you need to drive past Killington. Why drive an hour past a better ski resort to ski a worst one?


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 8, 2022)

nycskier said:


> *To get to SB from NY area you need to drive past Killington. Why drive an hour past a better ski resort to ski a worst one?*



I prefer Sugarbush to Killington.


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## ThatGuy (Mar 8, 2022)

nycskier said:


> Very true. To get to SB from NY area you need to drive past Killington. Why drive an hour past a better ski resort to ski a worst one?


Id drive an extra hour just to escape people from NYC  
Also SB is superior to Killi


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## cdskier (Mar 8, 2022)

nycskier said:


> Very true. To get to SB from NY area you need to drive past Killington. Why drive an hour past a better ski resort to ski a worst one?


On the bright side, I'm glad there's people that think like this. Everyone should go to K and not come to SB.


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## kancamagus (Mar 8, 2022)

It seems like the hate regarding crowded ski resorts is somewhat falsely pushed entirely towards multi-resort passes, because people like a singular scapegoat. Rather than accepting that it's complicated with myriad reasons for most places.

Part of that fact is that the total number of ski areas has been constantly declining while the climate is getting worse for winter sports. With a fairly constant number of active skiers and riders nationwide, these would naturally be split up into fewer resorts, increasing crowding. And some locations, like SLC and Denver, have seen their metro area populations (including number of skiers and riders) explode over the past few decades. At least SLC is building a few new resorts like Mayflower and Wasatch. But Denver? Let's double the number of skiers/riders that live in day trip driving range, build no new ski resorts, more or less have a single road that is the funnel to get to everything, and then somehow blame passes for the crowding and traffic?

Last season I got in ~20 days in Colorado and New Mexico (I would have had a handful of Vermont days in there if they hadn't been so anal about COVID restrictions. Oh well, their loss). These days were split across all of the Ikon Base pass resorts in those states. If Ikon or Epic wasn't a thing, I probably would have rolled the dice and picked a single ski area for a season pass, and would have gone skiing roughly the same number of days mostly at that one resort. Maybe I would have picked up 1-2 day tickets elsewhere. But overall, I would have contributed the same number of ski area day visits to the CO/NM area. So instead of adding a small amount of added crowding spread out to a bunch of resorts, most areas would have no additional crowding from me not being there, while I would have added a lot more [relative] crowding to one specific ski area.

So which scenario is better for crowding? What if all multi-resort passes poofed out of existence tomorrow and everyone went back to buying a single resort and/or day tickets? Do you really think the cumulative number of skier day visits across all resorts in a given region is suddenly going to collapse? I certainly don't. Folks will just get balkanized again. Just like how the downfall of cable has just ushered in an area when people rotate through Netflix, Prime, Hulu, Disney+, HBO, Paramount+, Peacock, etc. Folks are probably still watching the same amount of content. Just instead of having access to every channel through cable, they are consuming a lot more of only a few subscription services and none of the others.


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## machski (Mar 8, 2022)

machski said:


> Boyne has not announced New England Pass pricing or details yet.  They had said they may keep Shawnee separate.  We will see if it is added at any level to the NEP.  It would land there first before an Ikon landing.


Boyne dropped NEP pass pricing and details, costs increased about 10% across all levels.  Want to pau it on a payment plan, you now have to open a credit line.  Notably, Shawnee WAS NOT INCLUDED as an unlimited area on the NEP's.  All levels now give you unlimited 50% at other Boyne resorts for lift tix and Gold and up give 3 complimentary days first to include Shawnee.  So based on this, no way Shawnee gets added to IKON.

Also of note, Crystal has dumped their pay to park next season, mostly due to the large pass price hikes.  They will still require reservations Fri-Sun and peak days to park.


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## machski (Mar 8, 2022)

snoseek said:


> I'm on the tail end of a two week trip in Colorado with an epic pass and most of my time has been skiing bell to bell at powderhorn. I am sold on the mellow local hill experience at this point whether east of west. My one day at vail and one day at beaver creek were not nearly as enjoyable.


Same here.  Vail wasn't bad, so big you could always find a lift or lifts with little to not traffic (no powder says though).  Beaver Creek was a Wednesday and was ski on outside of the morning rush up Centennial.  Breck Fri-Mon was an utter $hit show.  The Quicksilver lift out of base of 9 should be renamed Silverslug for how slow it moves most of the time with slows and stops.  That dual loading curve idea is interesting but ultimately too confusing.  All the other 6 seaters there slow and stop A TON.  Terrain is awesome, but the crowds have killed it.  Flash ahead in Created Butte now, it's like skiing in the East.  Ski on every lift today and killer terrain to boot.  So much more snow here than the others.  Don't think I'll ever do an Epic outright pass again, but might have to grab an Epic 4 day to come back here.  All this said, locals told us today the place gets packed on weekends/holidays now, so very Eastern like in that respect.


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## machski (Mar 9, 2022)

Boyne tweeaked the lower tiers of the NEP this year too.  Silver and Nitro get 50% off unlimited at western Boyne's and Shawnee and have the option at checkout to buy a 2 or 3 Unrestricted NE Day pass for $150/219 to eliminate 2 or 3 blackout days.  A three day add onto a Silver still puts it about $220 less than a Gold.  Unless you intend to hit Shawnee more than once or ski over the majority of blackouts, this ups the Silver's value.  Bronze next year will get early season weekend access at SR/SL thru December 10th and late season Loon/SR/SL weeekend access after March 20th.  Loon likely left out of early weekends due to limited terrain and parking (South has never been open that early) and crowds as is on that limited offering.


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## skiur (Mar 9, 2022)

I wouldn't say k is better than bush or vice versa, they are both great resorts that I love skiing but they are totally different from each other.


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 9, 2022)

skiur said:


> I wouldn't say k is better than bush or vice versa, they are both great resorts that I love skiing but they are totally different from each other.


truth...  

2 completely different animals.


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## thebigo (Mar 10, 2022)

machski said:


> Boyne tweeaked the lower tiers of the NEP this year too.  Silver and Nitro get 50% off unlimited at western Boyne's and Shawnee and have the option at checkout to buy a 2 or 3 Unrestricted NE Day pass for $150/219 to eliminate 2 or 3 blackout days.  A three day add onto a Silver still puts it about $220 less than a Gold.  Unless you intend to hit Shawnee more than once or ski over the majority of blackouts, this ups the Silver's value.  Bronze next year will get early season weekend access at SR/SL thru December 10th and late season Loon/SR/SL weeekend access after March 20th.  Loon likely left out of early weekends due to limited terrain and parking (South has never been open that early) and crowds as is on that limited offering.


Bronze valid on weekends early and late season is compelling. Any idea if the renewal discount applies if you step down a level? Go from silver to bronze?


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## KustyTheKlown (Mar 10, 2022)

killington is only 'better' than sugarbush for ease of access, proximity to cheap lodging, and a serious commitment to early/late season

on snow sugarbush is better in like every category. i think that's objective. killington claims 3000 vertical but in practice its a bunch of pods with less than 1400 vertical. sugarbush is true 2000+ vertical

killington has better groomers. only on snow category i would give them. in bounds glades may be equal between the two places.


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## JDMRoma (Mar 10, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Bronze valid on weekends early and late season is compelling. Any idea if the renewal discount applies if you step down a level? Go from silver to bronze?


I dont think it matters,  when you get to the season pass page it just asks I need a pass or  renew. renew pricing should be there


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## ThatGuy (Mar 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killington is only 'better' than sugarbush for ease of access, proximity to cheap lodging, and a serious commitment to early/late season
> 
> on snow sugarbush is better in like every category. i think that's objective. killington claims 3000 vertical but in practice its a bunch of pods with less than 1400 vertical. sugarbush is true 2000+ vertical
> 
> killington has better groomers. only on snow category i would give them. in bounds glades may be equal between the two places.


The best thing about Killington is all the gapers it absorbs that would otherwise go further north.


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## skiur (Mar 10, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> killington is only 'better' than sugarbush for ease of access, proximity to cheap lodging, and a serious commitment to early/late season
> 
> on snow sugarbush is better in like every category. i think that's objective. killington claims 3000 vertical but in practice its a bunch of pods with less than 1400 vertical. sugarbush is true 2000+ vertical
> 
> killington has better groomers. only on snow category i would give them. in bounds glades may be equal between the two places.


K blows bush away in snowmaking which for much of the season is a major factor.  K blows bush away with it's spring scene and any sort of apres all season long.  K is also much bigger than bush (not that bush is small) so it can be shitty icy conditions on one side of the mountain and awesome conditions on another side.


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## machski (Mar 10, 2022)

thebigo said:


> Bronze valid on weekends early and late season is compelling. Any idea if the renewal discount applies if you step down a level? Go from silver to bronze?


I believe it does


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## JimG. (Mar 11, 2022)

K is better than SB for one big reason...it is not an unlimited destination on the IKON pass.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 1, 2022)

Ikon just added panorama and that has me thinking about red revelstoke panorama and lake Louise. Prob will stick w my American plan, but tempting. Canabucks and cannabis.


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## NYDB (Sep 2, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Ikon just added panorama and that has me thinking about red revelstoke panorama and lake Louise. Prob will stick w my American plan, but tempting. Canabucks and cannabis.


that would  be a sick trip.  yyc or geg?


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 2, 2022)

NYDB said:


> that would  be a sick trip.  yyc or geg?



prob calgary if i did it. and i'd prob cut out red since its out of the way. banff, rev, panorama are more doable together. especially if i pay for a day at kicking horse as a stopover place. still think i will stick to the original utah Idaho wyoming plan tho. tempted by bc. especially with the talk of more la nina stuff.


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## SenorQuesadilla (Sep 2, 2022)

Just finished booking Lake Louise and Sunshine Village a few days ago so solid timing. Last year the southern (Taos+Wolf Creek) and northern (Schweitzer+Banff resorts+Fernie) ends of my roadtrip ended up being my favorites so I'm happy to be heading back with another mountain to check out, hopefully with more snow this time. Red was cool but was full on spring conditions at the end of February and as mentioned is just too out of the way to risk.


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## Edd (Sep 2, 2022)

I very much enjoyed LL and Sunshine a few years back. It was an April trip I think and the town we stayed (Canmore) was fantastic. I was pretty blown away at the general scenic beauty of the Banff area.


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## KustyTheKlown (Sep 2, 2022)

Edd said:


> I very much enjoyed LL and Sunshine a few years back. It was an April trip I think and the town we stayed (Canmore) was fantastic. I was pretty blown away at the general scenic beauty of the Banff area.



i loved canmore. only complaint was its distance from lake louise. such a convenient and inexpensive little ski/gateway to the park town


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## SenorQuesadilla (Sep 2, 2022)

Edd said:


> I very much enjoyed LL and Sunshine a few years back. It was an April trip I think and the town we stayed (Canmore) was fantastic. I was pretty blown away at the general scenic beauty of the Banff area.


yeah totally absurd. I was pretty jaded after a month and a half driving through the rockies but it was on another level up there. The mountains of course were one thing but the never ending expanse of the densest forest imaginable put it over the top for me.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2022)

The drive from Lake Louise to Edmonton through mostly nothing buy nature is probably the most beautiful drive I've been on.


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## yeggous (Sep 6, 2022)

I thought I'd cross-post the link here. I'm running a group trip to Chamonix, one of the new Ikon destinatons. The group air is from Boston, but you can also provide your own air.






						2023 trip to Chamonix
					

Chamonix, France and Barcelona, Spain January 27 - February 7, 2023 $3,230 double occupancy, $4,280 single. Ground-only (no airfare): $2,180 double occupancy, $3,230 single.  Roundtrip air from Boston - Geneva - Barcelona Ground transfers 7 nights at the 4-star Hôtel Le Refuge des Aiglons in...




					forums.alpinezone.com


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## Yo VT Raps (Sep 10, 2022)

Chamonix is a nice add. I dont plan to buy one of these passes this year but it does put the likelihood of me eventually going to Chamonix in this lifetime a bit higher. I just happen to have a Chamonix poster as my profile pic as well.


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## NYDB (Oct 3, 2022)

got my passes today and instead of only useless stickers they included 2 coasters (along with the useless stickers) 
which is nice.


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## skef (Oct 4, 2022)

https://skipasssettlement.com/


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 4, 2022)

i got an email today. i am not one to condone litigation against ski areas or ski passes, especially over the act of god level unexpected shit covid was. i opted out.


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2022)

So if you used your Ikon pass in the 2019/2020 season at least 7 days...you get $10 off another Ikon season pass as part of the settlement. I didn't have an Ikon back then (that was the last year of a standalone Sugarbush pass), so I'm not eligible. If I was, I agree with Kusty that I'd opt out as this is a stupid lawsuit.


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## Edd (Oct 4, 2022)

NYDB said:


> got my passes today and instead of only useless stickers they included 2 coasters (along with the useless stickers)
> which is nice.View attachment 54831


Coasters like that have disappeared from most restaurants over the last couple of years. Weird observation but I’m convinced it’s true. I could see those being a germ concern but they are handy.


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## BenedictGomez (Oct 4, 2022)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i got an email today. i am not one to condone litigation against ski areas or ski passes, especially over the act of god level unexpected shit covid was. i opted out.



Did you read it closely?  This punishing settlement is really heads Alterra wins, tails Alterra doesn't lose.


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## cdskier (Oct 4, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Did you read it closely?  This punishing settlement is really heads Alterra wins, tails Alterra doesn't lose.



Of course it is really the lawyers that are the biggest winners...almost $2.9M for them!


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## KustyTheKlown (Oct 4, 2022)

BenedictGomez said:


> Did you read it closely?  This punishing settlement is really heads Alterra wins, tails Alterra doesn't lose.



just enough to see the lawyers take $3M, and that i could either opt in to get some sort of coupon code, not opt in to get some sort of automatic future discount, or opt out. i don't think alterra should have any liability for covid related closures, so if it is a winner for alterra i am glad.


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## jaytrem (Oct 5, 2022)

They keep sending me renewal codes that are worth a lot more than a $10 coupon.  19/20 was the only year I had the Ikon Pass.  We got our money's worth even though we missed out on a CA trip and Killington spring skiing.  We used it for the prior spring in CA, a mid-winter trip to CO, 2 early season Killington and 1 or 2 days at Stratton (along with 2 days in the summer). Can't complain.


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