# Summer 2018 Northeast Offseason Improvements



## sull1102 (Apr 25, 2018)

With May less than a week away and only the usual suspects left in the game I thought I would start a thread to keep track of who announces what for offseason improvements this year. It is still early, but already there have been some pretty big announcements and a lot of big projects are in the works. I'll add to this list as more is announced.

As of 5/9/18 

Vermont

*Magic*- *BLACK QUAD INSTALL!!!* Green Chair install, and snowmaking improvements*
Mount Snow*- Carinthia Base Lodge and parking garage, additional chairs on Nitro 
*Stratton*- Snow Bowl HSQ replacing FGQ, downhill mtb park(not skiing related but a big investment)
*Killington*- Snowdon Bubble Six, K1 Gondola new cabins and storage barn, RFID tech, Snowshed/Snowdon tunnels, and the almighty South Ridge Quad
*Jay* *Peak*- New Owner?
*Ascutney*- T-Bar Install

New Hampshire

*Bretton* *Woods*- New 4 season 8-person Gondola 
*Waterville* *Valley*- New High Country T-Bar

New York

*Hunter*- Hunter North with 5 new trails and a Detach 6-pack


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 25, 2018)

How's the Balsams Wilderness coming along?


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## drjeff (Apr 25, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> How's the Balsams Wilderness coming along?


Les is more apparently now....

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## xlr8r (Apr 25, 2018)

Killington, and Pico are also getting RFID gates to replace scanners.  I think there are rumors of Stratton, Loon, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf getting them as well so that the RFID in the Ikon pass is compatible at all mountains on the pass.


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## skiur (Apr 26, 2018)

Killington is also putting in a few tunnels on the snowshed crossover and on Snowdon.


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## Glenn (Apr 26, 2018)

Haystack: Financial improvements and overall restructuring.


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## Smellytele (Apr 26, 2018)

Jay peak and Burke getting sold


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## VTKilarney (Apr 26, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Jay peak and Burke getting sold



Word on the street is that Jay will sell much more quickly than Burke.  The Burke condo owners were told that they should expect the receiver to be running to resort for the duration of next ski season.


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## sull1102 (Apr 26, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Word on the street is that Jay will sell much more quickly than Burke.  The Burke condo owners were told that they should expect the receiver to be running to resort for the duration of next ski season.



Total shocker! Actually what will be somewhat surprising is selling Jay and not making the new guy take on Burke just to offload it.

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## tumbler (Apr 26, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Total shocker! Annually what will be somewhat surprising is selling Jay and not making the new guy take on Burke just to offload it.
> 
> Sent from my Z983 using AlpineZone mobile app



They probably think they can get more by selling each indivdually.


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 26, 2018)

Killington Poma moved to Swirl, adding new snowmaking for whatever is needed for the new "training" area there. K-1 gondola storage barn enclosed.


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## Jully (Apr 26, 2018)

tumbler said:


> They probably think they can get more by selling each indivdually.



Not wrong, it'll just be hard to sell Burke. If you sold them together you would get the price of Jay plus a few pennies haha. Selling Burke separately creates a floor for what the price can be.


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## Glenn (Apr 26, 2018)

Anyone know how many owners Burke has had? It seems like it's changed hands a lot over the last 20 or so years.


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## St. Jerry (Apr 26, 2018)

Gore:  Employees will be getting even more bad attitude


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## machski (Jun 26, 2018)

Apparently Loon is replacing their Gondola cabins this summer or fall (fall probably between summer/winter ops) with new but still 4 passenger cabins.  Wonder how much that is costing, I don't think CWA makes 4 pax cabins very often so this has to be a special order.
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=699

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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2018)

Glenn said:


> Anyone know how many owners Burke has had? It seems like it's changed hands a lot over the last 20 or so years.



Here is my understanding...to the best of my memory:

Founding-1960 or so: local shareholders
1960 or so-1986 or so:  Doug Kitchell
1986 or so-1989:  Quinn
1989-1991:  Creditor Bank 
1991-1995:  Bear Kingdom Limited (money laundering scheme for German Movie Mogul)
1995-2000:  Northern Star, Ltd.  
Sept.-Oct. 2000:  Unidentified Scrap Dealer
Oct. 2000-2005:  Burke 2000 (related entity to BMA)
2005-2012:  Lubert Adler and Related Entities (operated by Ginn 2005-2008; Crave 2008-2012)
2012-2016:  Q 
2016-Present:  Receiver on behalf of EB-5 investors.

Any questions?


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## sull1102 (Jun 27, 2018)

machski said:


> Apparently Loon is replacing their Gondola cabins this summer or fall (fall probably between summer/winter ops) with new but still 4 passenger cabins.  Wonder how much that is costing, I don't think CWA makes 4 pax cabins very often so this has to be a special order.
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=699
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app


Wow! That must be a pretty rare order in 2018, 4 passengers always feels so tight but maybe they've found a way to get a little more interior space. I'll do just about ANYTHING to get one of the old ones of and when they sell em.

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## cdskier (Jun 27, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I'll do just about ANYTHING to get one of the old ones of and when they sell em.



According to that article they are selling them for $1250 each (first being offered to passholders)


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## Glenn (Jun 27, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Here is my understanding...to the best of my memory:
> 
> Founding-1960 or so: local shareholders
> 1960 or so-1986 or so:  Doug Kitchell
> ...



HA! That's quite a list! It's changed hands a lot. I remember the hub-bub back in the day when the Never Ending Story guy bought the place.


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## Smellytele (Jun 27, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Wow! That must be a pretty rare order in 2018, 4 passengers always feels so tight but maybe they've found a way to get a little more interior space. I'll do just about ANYTHING to get one of the old ones of and when they sell em.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


You should have ridden in the old Wildcat/Sugarbush/Sugarloaf 2 person ones.


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## Newpylong (Jun 27, 2018)

Whaleback Mt. has replaced and enlarged their main snowmaking distribution line going from 6" to 8". Approx 2300 linear feet and rebuilt associated valve stations on said line.


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## drjeff (Jun 27, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Whaleback Mt. has replaced and enlarged their main snowmaking distribution line going from 6" to 8". Approx 2300 linear feet and rebuilt associated valve stations on said line.



Any upgrades in pumping capacity concurrent with the new, larger line? Or is/was the existing pumps capable of pushing that much extra water up the hill? Good news, regardless!


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## machski (Jun 27, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> You should have ridden in the old Wildcat/Sugarbush/Sugarloaf 2 person ones.


I did at Wildcat, those were cozy.

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## Newpylong (Jun 28, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Any upgrades in pumping capacity concurrent with the new, larger line? Or is/was the existing pumps capable of pushing that much extra water up the hill? Good news, regardless!



It would be nice if there was enough money to do another pump but not at this time. However the good 6" that came off this upline will replace some of the core 4" downlines to upgrade capacity there. The 8" upgrade was to prepare for a new pump and to replace rotted underground pipe below the base area. The work was done with 2 grant(s) and the next large snowmaking upgrade with either be an additional pump or more pipe replacement. Nearly the entire mountain is 30-40 year old victaulic piping, better suited for irrigation and sprinkler systems than snowmaking.


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## machski (Jun 28, 2018)

machski said:


> Apparently Loon is replacing their Gondola cabins this summer or fall (fall probably between summer/winter ops) with new but still 4 passenger cabins.  Wonder how much that is costing, I don't think CWA makes 4 pax cabins very often so this has to be a special order.
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=699
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app


Not much of any info on Loon's website on this.  I kind of wonder if they will upgrade the base and summit terminal cadence systems to all tires vs the old chain clips they have now as well.

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## thetrailboss (Jun 28, 2018)

As to other summer plans, looks like Burke is replacing snowmaking pipe on Bunker Hill.


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## machski (Jun 28, 2018)

Loon is also replacing Snowmaking pipe on Flying Fox and swinging the lines so they are all on the Western side of the trail now.

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## asnowmobiler (Jul 7, 2018)

Hunter’s new trails are coming along nicely.


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## slatham (Jul 7, 2018)

Ok not sure if this worked, and not exactly a huge improvement. Bromley rebuilding the upper mountain valve house. Actually I just wanted any snowmaking junkies to see the pic and this thread seemed the closest in theme......


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## Funky_Catskills (Jul 9, 2018)

asnowmobiler said:


> Hunter’s new trails are coming along nicely.View attachment 23936



F**cking pile drivers going off at 6:55AM this morning.... uuuuuuuuug....


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## andrec10 (Jul 9, 2018)

Funky_Catskills said:


> F**cking pile drivers going off at 6:55AM this morning.... uuuuuuuuug....


Gotta get her done!


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## Funky_Catskills (Jul 9, 2018)

andrec10 said:


> Gotta get her done!



Was on a conference call earlier today and they set off a BIG ASS explosion lower on the hill that the people on the call actually heard.... hahaha


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## sull1102 (Jul 9, 2018)

Funky_Catskills said:


> F**cking pile drivers going off at 6:55AM this morning.... uuuuuuuuug....


I was wondering how they got this work done so quick, I think I have a good idea now!

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## Funky_Catskills (Jul 9, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I was wondering how they got this work done so quick, I think I have a good idea now!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925P using AlpineZone mobile app



It's absolutely relentless - in a good way.  They seem to be out all day - every day. Im amazed at the whole process...


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## andrec10 (Jul 9, 2018)

funky_catskills said:


> was on a conference call earlier today and they set off a big ass explosion lower on the hill that the people on the call actually heard.... Hahaha


wow!


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## sull1102 (Jul 10, 2018)

When you compare it to similar projects in recent years it's really impressive. Look at Waterville and their new pod that has taken a couple summers and still needs a little bit of work. They started back in the summer of 2016 and I think the Green Peak Triple didn't actually run until January 2017 and even then there was no snowmaking and trails weren't "cleared" down to grass like these beautiful pastures Hunter is building. It wasn't until summer 2017 that WV got the trails cleared out and finished cutting and clearing the rest of them. Even this winter snowmaking was very limited. Meanwhile Hunter looks to have this terrain 100% open with snowmaking by opening day... 

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## machski (Jul 10, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> When you compare it to similar projects in recent years it's really impressive. Look at Waterville and their new pod that has taken a couple summers and still needs a little bit of work. They started back in the summer of 2016 and I think the Green Peak Triple didn't actually run until January 2017 and even then there was no snowmaking and trails weren't "cleared" down to grass like these beautiful pastures Hunter is building. It wasn't until summer 2017 that WV got the trails cleared out and finished cutting and clearing the rest of them. Even this winter snowmaking was very limited. Meanwhile Hunter looks to have this terrain 100% open with snowmaking by opening day...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Don't kid yourself, Waterville is STILL finishing clearing and grading the Green Peak trails this summer and adding in snowmaking lines.


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## Jully (Jul 10, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> When you compare it to similar projects in recent years it's really impressive. Look at Waterville and their new pod that has taken a couple summers and still needs a little bit of work. They started back in the summer of 2016 and I think the Green Peak Triple didn't actually run until January 2017 and even then there was no snowmaking and trails weren't "cleared" down to grass like these beautiful pastures Hunter is building. It wasn't until summer 2017 that WV got the trails cleared out and finished cutting and clearing the rest of them. Even this winter snowmaking was very limited. Meanwhile Hunter looks to have this terrain 100% open with snowmaking by opening day...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app





machski said:


> Don't kid yourself, Waterville is STILL finishing clearing and grading the Green Peak trails this summer and adding in snowmaking lines.



Agreed. Mega kudos to Peaks for being so efficient here. Its not complete yet, so I guess we can't quite count our chickens yet, but all signs are good thus far.


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## andrec10 (Jul 10, 2018)

Jully said:


> Agreed. Mega kudos to Peaks for being so efficient here. Its not complete yet, so I guess we can't quite count our chickens yet, but all signs are good thus far.



Start counting your chickens, it will be done.


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## mbedle (Jul 10, 2018)

Jully said:


> Agreed. Mega kudos to Peaks for being so efficient here. Its not complete yet, so I guess we can't quite count our chickens yet, but all signs are good thus far.



Also keep in mind that the Waterville Valley expansion was done under their SUP and a Forestry Services permit. I am guessing, but pretty sure, that the environmental requirements for the Hunter expansion were a lot less than what Waterville is dealing with.


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## sull1102 (Jul 10, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Also keep in mind that the Waterville Valley expansion was done under their SUP and a Forestry Services permit. I am guessing, but pretty sure, that the environmental requirements for the Hunter expansion were a lot less than what Waterville is dealing with.


I wonder if that is the case. I figure it's a case of WV wants to spread the costs and they have 2% of the crowding issues Hunter has. Hunter also had the corporate will power of Peak driving things along with competing NYState owned reapers getting big investments lately. WV is doing Green Peak because they need to do something after 40+ years of no changes at all and going 25 years of no new lifts(Jesus that's a sad figure).

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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2018)

I'd imagine part of the reason WV is going so slow is they want to sell the place.  Perhaps they are paying for much of the work with operating profit instead of accumulating a lot of debt that they likely won't get a great ROI in the sale.  

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## Funky_Catskills (Jul 11, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Also keep in mind that the Waterville Valley expansion was done under their SUP and a Forestry Services permit. I am guessing, but pretty sure, that the environmental requirements for the Hunter expansion were a lot less than what Waterville is dealing with.




Hunter lies within the "Catskill Forest Preserve" (NYSDEC) and is in the NYC watershed governed by the DEP..

There were permits...  And environmental requirements.... trust me...
Nobody makes a move in the Catskills without the DEP getting involved..


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## Jully (Jul 11, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd imagine part of the reason WV is going so slow is they want to sell the place.  Perhaps they are paying for much of the work with operating profit instead of accumulating a lot of debt that they likely won't get a great ROI in the sale.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



This is the scuttlebutt I have heard. It makes perfect sense too.


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## machski (Jul 11, 2018)

Jully said:


> This is the scuttlebutt I have heard. It makes perfect sense too.


Probably why they scrapped a new HSQ for Green and went with a relocated World Cup Triple instead.  That makes a bit of a mess, as Green peak all the way down to town with a Gondola back up is still on the boards.  A slow triple to link that would be poor, making a new buyer likely needing to upgrade they lift installed now.

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## andrec10 (Jul 11, 2018)

Funky_Catskills said:


> Hunter lies within the "Catskill Forest Preserve" (NYSDEC) and is in the NYC watershed governed by the DEP..
> 
> There were permits...  And environmental requirements.... trust me...
> Nobody makes a move in the Catskills without the DEP getting involved..



No one farts in the Catskills, without the DEP getting involved!


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## sull1102 (Jul 12, 2018)

andrec10 said:


> No one farts in the Catskills, without the DEP getting involved!


WMNF is a cake walk in comparison

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## deadheadskier (Jul 12, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> WMNF is a cake walk in comparison
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Sarcasm?  A comparable project to Hunters would be South Peak at Loon.  That took nearly 20 years to push through.  

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## sull1102 (Jul 13, 2018)

Try doing anything at all in upstate NY and you shall see. Don't forget NY is in the business so when they're deciding whether or not to approve your expansion, well it might take a good long minute. South Peak did not take almost 20 years for permits. They started cutting those trails back in 97 then stalled out, but once they decided they were actually going for it things moved along. Although that's another good example of a long build out as well. It's been what ten years since the Lincoln Express started spinning and still to this day it doesn't have all the terrain originally planned.

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## deadheadskier (Jul 13, 2018)

Didn't "stall out" in 97. They were forced to stop.  

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/loon/southpeak.php

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## machski (Jul 13, 2018)

^^^^^THIS!!  South Peak took forever to get through final approvals.  It looked all set and trail cutting began in 97 before out of staters got the NFS to shut it down again with a new complaint.  Absolute BS in my opinion.  The original plans for South were up to 27 main trails off the top.  That was cut down to what we have now off the top.  Of course, they do have approval for the lower learning pod that will be the public acces point to South when done.  That delay is all on Boyne.

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## Newpylong (Jul 14, 2018)

Hunter and WV both have all required permits but the Hunter crew has more in house and institutional (Peak) project management experience. They can afford and handle completing a project of this magnitude in one off-season.


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## machski (Jul 23, 2018)

Sunday River is beginning the doubling of it's Snowmaking water capacity this year.  That should boost it to, oh say, 16000 gal/min.  Best part about step one is the new trunk line from the river to the Snowmaking plant, something they have blown out several times over the last several seasons.  15% boost this year and hopefully much more reliable system.
https://sundayriver.blog/2018/07/20/taking-the-first-step-toward-doubling-snowmaking/

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## Jully (Jul 23, 2018)

machski said:


> Sunday River is beginning the doubling of it's Snowmaking water capacity this year.  That should boost it to, oh say, 16000 gal/min.  Best part about step one is the new trunk line from the river to the Snowmaking plant, something they have blown out several times over the last several seasons.  15% boost this year and hopefully much more reliable system.
> https://sundayriver.blog/2018/07/20/taking-the-first-step-toward-doubling-snowmaking/
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Great to hear they're getting a sizable upgrade to their snowmaking. I imagine just what they've laid out for this year is not cheap (never mind what is to come).

Was this trunk line part of what they struggled with this season at points? I wonder if this means we are not that far from a pump on the west side like they've talked about previously.


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## machski (Jul 23, 2018)

Jully said:


> Great to hear they're getting a sizable upgrade to their snowmaking. I imagine just what they've laid out for this year is not cheap (never mind what is to come).
> 
> Was this trunk line part of what they struggled with this season at points? I wonder if this means we are not that far from a pump on the west side like they've talked about previously.


Yes, the last several seasons actually.  I believe they blew out this trunk line at various locations at least three times the last two seasons, including the lead up to opening day last year which cut their planned opening day trail count in half.  This set them back straight through early season.  Had the line held, they likely would have come close to matching the ramp up seen at Mount Snow.  The new river pump puts their water push very close to Snow's now.  

My guess is that between this needed rebuild and the new Gondi cabins Loon is getting, this is the start of Boyne reinvesting in the East now that they control the whole deal.  O do believe we see the new West River feed line at SR in the next year or two, along with some revamps on the hill in terms of plumbing to maximize it.

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## ss20 (Jul 23, 2018)

machski said:


> My guess is that between this needed rebuild and the new Gondi cabins Loon is getting, this is the start of Boyne reinvesting in the East now that they control the whole deal.  O do believe we see the new West River feed line at SR in the next year or two, along with some revamps on the hill in terms of plumbing to maximize it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



While the increase in pumping capacity is cool...replacing a major snowmaking line that has blown out multiple times and replacing gondola cabins that are 30 years old sounds more like catching up on deferred maintenance than a new era of investment... especially given the massive portfolio Boyne has.


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## Newpylong (Jul 23, 2018)

The river line that is getting replaced was rotted and should have been done years ago, I know the guys doing it for them. Ductile Iron is starting to make inroads into the North American snowmaking industry, especially for buried lines where corrosion is the worst.

They already have a phenomenal snowmaking system and great staff to use it - their largest hurdle as mentioned is the lack of a direct water source on the West side, meaning they have to pump water out of Barker at ridiculously high pressure to ensure there is still enough PSI once it gets on the other side.


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## ss20 (Jul 23, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> The river line that is getting replaced was rotted and should have been done years ago, I know the guys doing it for them. Ductile Iron is starting to make inroads into the North American snowmaking industry, especially for buried lines where corrosion is the worst.



I do kinda wonder about these "major snowmaking lines" that connect the main water source these mountains use to their on-mountain systems.  Killington tapping into the Woodward Reservoir comes to mind.  Okemo's big pond just outside Ludlow that takes from the river is another.  Major pipes like these must be pushing 30+ years old at most resorts and would be a huge undertaking to replace I'd imagine, tearing up roads and lots of digging.


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## slatham (Jul 23, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I do kinda wonder about these "major snowmaking lines" that connect the main water source these mountains use to their on-mountain systems.  Killington tapping into the Woodward Reservoir comes to mind.  Okemo's big pond just outside Ludlow that takes from the river is another.  Major pipes like these must be pushing 30+ years old at most resorts and would be a huge undertaking to replace I'd imagine, tearing up roads and lots of digging.



Sugarbush Lincoln Peak line from pond down by Rt 100 in the Mad River Valley is another, and was replaced (or had major repairs) several years ago. 

Of course Mt Snow's West Lake Projct is also a very long haul. Let's see how that holds up.


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## Jully (Jul 23, 2018)

ss20 said:


> While the increase in pumping capacity is cool...replacing a major snowmaking line that has blown out multiple times and replacing gondola cabins that are 30 years old sounds more like catching up on deferred maintenance than a new era of investment... especially given the massive portfolio Boyne has.



At a minimum it shows that Boyne is willing to pay for that maintenance. CNL and OZ (however brief) clearly were not shelling out for these replacements while Boyne immediately does in the year they buy the resorts back.

Could be coincidence, but it doesn't feel like it. It's not like Loon didn't need cabins every year CNL owned them and SR's main line has had struggles from what Mach said. The replacements were justified for years, but Boyne is actually doing them now. Major step in the right direction!


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## tumbler (Jul 24, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I do kinda wonder about these "major snowmaking lines" that connect the main water source these mountains use to their on-mountain systems.  Killington tapping into the Woodward Reservoir comes to mind.  Okemo's big pond just outside Ludlow that takes from the river is another.  Major pipes like these must be pushing 30+ years old at most resorts and would be a huge undertaking to replace I'd imagine, tearing up roads and lots of digging.



Killington's line from the reservoir is PVC, gravity pitched.  Most resorts do not want to pay the expense for the quality pipe so this is quite common.


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## machski (Jul 24, 2018)

Jully said:


> At a minimum it shows that Boyne is willing to pay for that maintenance. CNL and OZ (however brief) clearly were not shelling out for these replacements while Boyne immediately does in the year they buy the resorts back.
> 
> Could be coincidence, but it doesn't feel like it. It's not like Loon didn't need cabins every year CNL owned them and SR's main line has had struggles from what Mach said. The replacements were justified for years, but Boyne is actually doing them now. Major step in the right direction!


SR's feed line dates back to probably the late 70's or at best 80ish.  So it was going on 40+ years old and is a fairly high pressure line to pump it uphill from the river to Barker Basin.  Barker Road has needed a repave for a while now as well, so maybe that is in the near future with the feed line replacement done (feed line basically is below Barker road).

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## benski (Aug 7, 2018)

Greek peek is putting new chairs on there chair 5, AKA the backside triple. They also said they are replacing there beginner lift (number 3) with a triple next year. They defiantly need to replace there lift 2, it really old and rusty. Reminds me of the old valley house and village lifts at Sugarbush but i have not heard any plans to do so, so hearing the newer lift 3 comes first is a surprise. 

The pictures are defiantly of a two used lifts being hauled away from different ski area, anyone know which one. One lift has hall towers, the other does not. 

https://www.facebook.com/GreekPeakMountainResort/posts/10156326179447900


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## So Inclined (Aug 9, 2018)

benski said:


> The pictures are defiantly of a two used lifts being hauled away from different ski area, anyone know which one.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/GreekPeakMountainResort/posts/10156326179447900



Windham, I believe.


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## andrec10 (Aug 9, 2018)

So Inclined said:


> Windham, I believe.



It is Windham. I can spot that runout from miles away....


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## machski (Aug 20, 2018)

Went up to Loon to play their new disk golf course, the new Gondola cabins are already on.  No different than the old ones except the skylight window is a bit bigger and more square.

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## Jully (Aug 20, 2018)

machski said:


> Went up to Loon to play their new disk golf course, the new Gondola cabins are already on.  No different than the old ones except the skylight window is a bit bigger and more square.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Imagine structurally there cannot be much they can change. You get a look inside one?


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## machski (Aug 20, 2018)

Jully said:


> Imagine structurally there cannot be much they can change. You get a look inside one?


Rode in one, they are all on line and in use this summer.  Pretty much the same, the only thing different is the sky light window is a bit bigger with a hydraulic arm to hold open.  I think the hangar arms are the old ones too, so literally just new cabins 

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## Jully (Aug 20, 2018)

machski said:


> Rode in one, they are all on line and in use this summer.  Pretty much the same, the only thing different is the sky light window is a bit bigger with a hydraulic arm to hold open.  I think the hangar arms are the old ones too, so literally just new cabins
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Ah, kind of lame, but no sense in spending tons of money on 4 person cabins. Wonder how long they intend to use these for. Could it be a 3-5 year stopgap or more like 10+ years of use they're hoping to get out of new cabins. If they're really not much, I'd hope it's the former.


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## sull1102 (Aug 20, 2018)

Any pics? I can't even find anything on their social media about the "upgrade" I mean are they just a tiny bit wider at all? It's always a tight fit with 4 inside.

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## crystalmountainskier (Aug 21, 2018)

Are you sure they are new?  Telluride recently got some new 4 passenger Omegas and they are the fourth generation style.






Their older ones are just like Loon's


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## machski (Aug 21, 2018)

I did not take any pics, had my dog and he was a nervous wreck on it.  No bigger, they are exactly the same except new and unscratched plexiglass.  The glass does not go down to the floor, still metal from seat back height down.  And definitely no roomier, same dimensions.

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## sull1102 (Aug 21, 2018)

So literally the exact same f-ing way too small waste of a lift on the weekends... great. They must view this as a holdover for the next 5-8 years while they finally maybe kinda sorta make a dent South Peak's build out. Actually I wonder if these were part of a deal for that rumored pulse gondi.

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## mbedle (Aug 22, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> So literally the exact same f-ing way too small waste of a lift on the weekends... great. They must view this as a holdover for the next 5-8 years while they finally maybe kinda sorta make a dent South Peak's build out. Actually I wonder if these were part of a deal for that rumored pulse gondi.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



I think the pulse gondola is associated with Riverwalk and not the Loon.


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## sull1102 (Aug 22, 2018)

I believe you are correct mbedle but I just can't figure out how else this could happen. I wonder if it was a weird situation where CWA or whoever makes those cabins had old stock sitting around. I mean they easily could have upgraded to a all plexiglass one and that would have been a pretty big update. 

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## bdfreetuna (Aug 22, 2018)

Meanwhile Telluride still has a couple double chairs without safety bars and very slippery shitty seats taking you high over very ser terrain.

You have 2 options from Telluride village... the gondola (fine but takes you over to mild terrain) or going straight up the mountain on the sketchiest double chair.

IDK but I'm not a heights guy. If the seats on the bar-less double weren't made of the most slippery, down-sloping plastic available in 1940 it might be a slightly better ride first thing in the morning. I did feel that if I let go of the metal pole holding the chair to the cable (only thing to hold on to) I would easily slip off the seat and fall 100+ feet to serious injury.


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## machski (Aug 22, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I believe you are correct mbedle but I just can't figure out how else this could happen. I wonder if it was a weird situation where CWA or whoever makes those cabins had old stock sitting around. I mean they easily could have upgraded to a all plexiglass one and that would have been a pretty big update.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Probably why Loon hasn't made a big deal about the cabins on their website or even a presser.  The pulse Gondola was/is to be for Riverwalk owners/guests once South Peak learner's pods and base buildout is complete.

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## chuckstah (Aug 22, 2018)

It looks like Boyne really cheaped out on this "upgrade".  The plan I heard two seasons ago, from Loon management, was a $10 million replacement, although increased  capacity had not yet been determined. Hopefully this is just a stopgap as some have speculated.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 22, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Meanwhile Telluride still has a couple double chairs without safety bars and very slippery shitty seats taking you high over very ser terrain.
> 
> You have 2 options from Telluride village... the gondola (fine but takes you over to mild terrain) or going straight up the mountain on the sketchiest double chair.
> 
> IDK but I'm not a heights guy. If the seats on the bar-less double weren't made of the most slippery, down-sloping plastic available in 1940 it might be a slightly better ride first thing in the morning. I did feel that if I let go of the metal pole holding the chair to the cable (only thing to hold on to) I would easily slip off the seat and fall 100+ feet to serious injury.



While you are being a little dramatic those old lifts on the front side are long overdue for replacements. It’s all part of their latest improvement plans and I imagine is still going through the NEPA and other required processes.

This should help you kill some time. 
https://www.tellurideskiresort.com/...016 master development plan_final_opt (1).pdf


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## crystalmountainskier (Aug 23, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Meanwhile Telluride still has a couple double chairs without safety bars and very slippery shitty seats taking you high over very ser terrain.
> 
> You have 2 options from Telluride village... the gondola (fine but takes you over to mild terrain) or going straight up the mountain on the sketchiest double chair.
> 
> IDK but I'm not a heights guy. If the seats on the bar-less double weren't made of the most slippery, down-sloping plastic available in 1940 it might be a slightly better ride first thing in the morning. I did feel that if I let go of the metal pole holding the chair to the cable (only thing to hold on to) I would easily slip off the seat and fall 100+ feet to serious injury.



You realize many hundreds of lifts of all ages in the western United States have no bars, right?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 23, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> You realize many hundreds of lifts of all ages in the western United States have no bars, right?



That number is shrinking.  In Utah Alta and other places have started putting bars on their lifts or replacing lifts with those that have bars.


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## speden (Aug 23, 2018)

Apparently retrofitting bars on old lifts has a downside of adding a lot of weight. I read this about a lift at Telluride: 

"Another planned project that will surprise no one is a Plunge lift replacement.  The existing 1985 CTEC triple has had a reduced hourly capacity of 1,042 pph ever since safety bars were installed, due to their added weight.  At 6,260 feet slope length, a ride takes nearly 13 minutes."


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## Jully (Aug 23, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> You realize many hundreds of lifts of all ages in the western United States have no bars, right?



Not sure why that matters. It doesn't make it any less sketchy feeling as tuna described. Also seems like the safety bar is far from the whole picture of why its sketchy.


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## Edd (Aug 24, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> You realize many hundreds of lifts of all ages in the western United States have no bars, right?



How many, I wonder? It should be zero, IMO. I’ve seen a few but, of all the lifts I’ve seen, I’d put it at about 1%.


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 24, 2018)

Amazes me how many regulations there are for so many things but it's still legal to have a slippery lift with no bar.

Fear of heights and vertigo are my biggest enemies while skiing -- part of the reason I like tree skiing and pucker in open bowls. So while others may not be frozen in fear riding up that chair (many are I guarantee you that), I would think there would be some other safety mechanism. As I said it was one of the most downward sloping slippery chairs I can remember as well. I felt that if I did not hang on to something it wouldn't have taken much to slide right off.

Telluride is supposed to be a world-class resort and all that so riding such a POS lift was a bit of a surprise -- and I only rode that lift once for that reason, sadly missing probably some of the best terrain on the mountain.


Anyway good to see they are replacing it. I imagine they got a lot of complaints!


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## Smellytele (Aug 24, 2018)

Edd said:


> How many, I wonder? It should be zero, IMO. I’ve seen a few but, of all the lifts I’ve seen, I’d put it at about 1%.



Loveland has a few as does Mount Rose.


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## crystalmountainskier (Aug 24, 2018)

Edd said:


> How many, I wonder? It should be zero, IMO. I’ve seen a few but, of all the lifts I’ve seen, I’d put it at about 1%.



Way over 1%.  Still a large number of the lifts in Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, New Mexico and parts of California.

Vail Resorts will be buying a lot of bars for Stevens Pass.  The Summit at Snoqualmie has 15 chairlifts without them.  Red Lodge, MT even has a high speed quad without them.

Somehow millions grew up skiing in the Pacific Northwest for decades without falling to their deaths!


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## Edd (Aug 24, 2018)

crystalmountainskier said:


> Somehow millions grew up skiing in the Pacific Northwest for decades without falling to their deaths!



Just doesn’t seem worth the risk to me. I work for a large corporation at which safety is discussed ad nauseam so my viewpoint is likely contaminated but a simple bar seems like such a no-brainer.


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## So Inclined (Aug 24, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Amazes me how many regulations there are for so many things but it's still legal to have a slippery lift with no bar.



I often take 4-6 year olds - some of them really very small - on chairlifts while instructing, and it's easily the most stressful part of the job for me, even with safety bars. "Tyler, please turn around and stop kicking your feet. Kayla, PLEASE sit back a little..." 

I've only been on a few chairs without bars out west (Lift 7 at Taos comes to mind first), none of them in beginner areas but kids lessons don't always stay in beginner-land and I can't imagine taking someone else's kids up on an old school open chair like that.


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## Edd (Aug 24, 2018)

So Inclined said:


> I've only been on a few chairs without bars out west (Lift 7 at Taos comes to mind first), none of them in beginner areas but kids lessons don't always stay in beginner-land and I can't imagine taking someone else's kids up on an old school open chair like that.



You’ve gotta get on the old school tough guy train like this person. How dare you expect reasonable precautions?!



crystalmountainskier said:


> Somehow millions grew up skiing in the Pacific Northwest for decades without falling to their deaths!


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## ss20 (Aug 25, 2018)

So Inclined said:


> I often take 4-6 year olds - some of them really very small - on chairlifts while instructing, and it's easily the most stressful part of the job for me, even with safety bars. "Tyler, please turn around and stop kicking your feet. Kayla, PLEASE sit back a little..."



Worst part of the job...


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## bdfreetuna (Aug 25, 2018)

I expect the most dangerous part of skiing to be "the way down". The way up is what you're paying for and if I recall Telluride was close to $130 for a day pass.

edit: $139, apparently. I might have got a deal with a 2 day pass.


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## mtl1076 (Aug 27, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Worst part of the job...



It is actually pretty interesting. No safety bar and the kids sit back on the chair.  With a safety bar they scoot forward and use the bar to rest, etc.


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## 1dog (Aug 30, 2018)

Edd said:


> You’ve gotta get on the old school tough guy train like this person. How dare you expect reasonable precautions?!



Raising everyone to blame everyone and anyone except the man in the mirror ( apologies to MJ). Lawyers - not all - but easily 30% of the cost of living is preventative legal protection at many  levels.

Pendulum has swung way too far.

Warren got wealthy by understanding insurance - you pay us every year and maybe we have to pay you back  once in a while, ( but highly unlikely more than a couple times in a lifetime)? I understand that says the Sage of Omaha. . . .


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## JAM614 (Aug 31, 2018)

Black Mountain of Maine; more than doubling their snowmaking capabilities with the addition of 17 tower guns;
http://www.skiblackmountain.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=354

https://www.facebook.com/skiblackmountain/videos/239613816724271/

The Angry Beavers continue to cut glades, adding another (4) for this year, pushing the count near 30, all off from (1) lift.  BMOM has a modest trail map, there's way more than meets the eye.
See more here;
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMOMbeavers/


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## sull1102 (Sep 5, 2018)

Just saw pics over on NESI of the "new" Loon gondola cabins. Man oh man was that one hell of a let down, the caption read something like "New and Old" and honestly I could not tell which one was the new one at first. New is kind of tough to say when it looks like they were purchased 30 years ago, wrapped in bubble wrap and placed in a humidity controlled warehouse somewhere overseas just waiting for the day they were needed at Loon.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 7, 2018)

I think it's pretty clear Boyne is not as well-capitalized as Alterra or Vail.


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## AdironRider (Sep 7, 2018)

When was the last time you fell over while sitting in a chair? 

I'm willing to bet never.


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## Smellytele (Sep 7, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> When was the last time you fell over while sitting in a chair?
> 
> I'm willing to bet never.



On the back side of Alpine Meadows I saw a woman fall of the lift. She actually fell asleep I was told by ski patrol. And this was with a bar on the lift.


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## Gnarcissaro (Sep 7, 2018)

I’m more inclined to argue that Loon would be doing more of a disservice to the experience by putting in a bigger gondola. There’s already enough people on the slopes on a busy day, gotta keep some at the base. Trails off the gondola summit aren’t exactly ‘old New England’ style, but aren’t super wide boulevards either.

You want even more getting dropped off at the summit, and hence, on the trails with you? An 8 person gondy would be a shit show, I think. If you’re there on weekend you already should be accepting the normal line situation there.


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## xlr8r (Sep 7, 2018)

Loon peak is already crowded as is, They cannot put a higher capacity lift in where the gondola is.  It is underwhelming though that they stayed with the old style CWA Omega cabins instead of the new ones.  CWA does make 4 passenger Omegas with the floor to ceiling windows, Telluride uses some on its Chondola.  https://skiliftblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/img_0744.jpg  Or at least paint the cabins a new color, instead of the same old drab grey.  Its as if they do not want people to notice the cabins are new.

What I am really surprised about is that boyne is not upgrading the terminals, towers, hangers, which must be near the end of their lives.  Look at what Steamboat recently did with their gondola which is even older than Loon's.  They kept the old cabins, but replaced almost everything else, so mechanically it is like a new lift.  https://liftblog.com/2017/02/21/steamboat-commits-to-major-gondola-upgrades/

Loon can handle more people on the lower mountain, someday soon it would be nice if they replace 7 Brothers with a detachable quad.  This will help shorten the long gondola lines.  Even with the new loading carpet, people do not want to use 7 Brother unless the Gondola line is absurdly long.


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## raisingarizona (Sep 7, 2018)

Gnarcissaro said:


> I’m more inclined to argue that Loon would be doing more of a disservice to the experience by putting in a bigger gondola. There’s already enough people on the slopes on a busy day, gotta keep some at the base. Trails off the gondola summit aren’t exactly ‘old New England’ style, but aren’t super wide boulevards either.
> 
> You want even more getting dropped off at the summit, and hence, on the trails with you? An 8 person gondy would be a shit show, I think. If you’re there on weekend you already should be accepting the normal line situation there.
> 
> ...




You can increase the cabin size but keep the capacity near the same by simply spacing them further apart or running it a little slower.


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## Smellytele (Sep 7, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> You can increase the cabin size but keep the capacity near the same by simply spacing them further apart or running it a little slower.



Why bother?


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## machski (Sep 7, 2018)

xlr8r said:


> Loon peak is already crowded as is, They cannot put a higher capacity lift in where the gondola is.  It is underwhelming though that they stayed with the old style CWA Omega cabins instead of the new ones.  CWA does make 4 passenger Omegas with the floor to ceiling windows, Telluride uses some on its Chondola.  https://skiliftblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/img_0744.jpg  Or at least paint the cabins a new color, instead of the same old drab grey.  Its as if they do not want people to notice the cabins are new.
> 
> What I am really surprised about is that boyne is not upgrading the terminals, towers, hangers, which must be near the end of their lives.  Look at what Steamboat recently did with their gondola which is even older than Loon's.  They kept the old cabins, but replaced almost everything else, so mechanically it is like a new lift.  https://liftblog.com/2017/02/21/steamboat-commits-to-major-gondola-upgrades/
> 
> Loon can handle more people on the lower mountain, someday soon it would be nice if they replace 7 Brothers with a detachable quad.  This will help shorten the long gondola lines.  Even with the new loading carpet, people do not want to use 7 Brother unless the Gondola line is absurdly long.


Keep dreaming about 7 Brothers.  It was suppose to be upped to a HSQ (and the triple moved over to replace East Basin) but that got scratched and a load carpet added.  Doubt they spend anything there until South is finally fully built out.

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## Terry (Sep 8, 2018)

View attachment 24003View attachment 24004Testing out the new pumping system at Shawnee Peak yesterday.


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## sull1102 (Sep 8, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Why bother?


Ever been to Loon and ridden that gondi? It is horrible. They are some of the smallest cabins ever made. Even going to a 6-pax fewer cabins, don't increase capacity (I disagree that the summit is too crowded, you can increase it another 50 skiers an hour and still be okay) and the bigger space would make it a more enjoyable ride.

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## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Ever been to Loon and ridden that gondi? It is horrible. They are some of the smallest cabins ever made. Even going to a 6-pax fewer cabins, don't increase capacity (I disagree that the summit is too crowded, you can increase it another 50 skiers an hour and still be okay) and the bigger space would make it a more enjoyable ride.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



I have been and ridden them. The point was why put in a six person one when those will just be as crowded with 6 people in them and not gain you anything because you have less of them and/or run it slower.


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## slatham (Sep 9, 2018)

Terry said:


> View attachment 24003View attachment 24004Testing out the new pumping system at Shawnee Peak yesterday.



Yeah I know it's only water but this made my day. Blow the mice season is upon us and NEXT month Killington and others will hopefully be blowing snow.


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## Glenn (Sep 9, 2018)

42F in SoVT earlier this AM.

Great pics Terry!


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## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2018)

Glenn said:


> 42F in SoVT earlier this AM.
> 
> Great pics Terry!



Same in central NH


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## sull1102 (Sep 9, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I have been and ridden them. The point was why put in a six person one when those will just be as crowded with 6 people in them and not gain you anything because you have less of them and/or run it slower.



Because a 6 person cabin would be significantly more comfortable even with two more people. The overall larger overall area, larger door opening,larger windows, larger skylight, taller ceilings, etc would provide for a much better experience. I rode in 1970's era CWA cabins at Laax that were still larger than these cabins are now. Even going to a full length window would have opened things up a little bit visually. I totally agree with whomever said it is like they did not want anyone to notice the change. They barely advertised it even.


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## drjeff (Sep 23, 2018)

Based on what I saw first hand yesterday, either Bromley is replacing the haul rope on their Alpine Double, or it's being removed from service as all the chairs were on the ground over by their magic carpet beginner area out past the Bromley Outing Club building and there currently is no haul rope on the lift towers and base return terminal. 

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## sull1102 (Sep 23, 2018)

That's not good, they run that lift for the alpine slide and their site claims they're running for another couple weeks into October. Rode it a few weeks ago and everything seemed to be working well. 

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## raisingarizona (Sep 23, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I have been and ridden them. The point was why put in a six person one when those will just be as crowded with 6 people in them and not gain you anything because you have less of them and/or run it slower.



You can also run the lift much slower and add more cabins, I've been told this makes a short lift line, fewer people on the slopes and more people actually riding on the lift. Variations on how a lift is set up can create different skiing experiences I guess. Psychologically speaking I bet most people prefer to sit in a comfortable cabin that provides a nice social experience than standing on a long line as well as having less crowded slopes to ski even if the ride up is a little longer.


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## drjeff (Sep 23, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> That's not good, they run that lift for the alpine slide and their site claims they're running for another couple weeks into October. Rode it a few weeks ago and everything seemed to be working well.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app




My bad, I had the name of the lifts flipped in my head!  The Alpine lift that goes to mid mountain and serves the alpine slides and Sun Mountain Flyer ride was running as usual.  The Sun Chair, that shares common lower towers with the Alpine lift, but goes about 3/4ths of the way up, was the one with the chairs and haul rope off!!


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## slatham (Sep 23, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Based on what I saw first hand yesterday, either Bromley is replacing the haul rope on their Alpine Double, or it's being removed from service as all the chairs were on the ground over by their magic carpet beginner area out past the Bromley Outing Club building and there currently is no haul rope on the lift towers and base return terminal.
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



I was told two weeks ago the chairs were off for painting. Haul rope was on at that time.


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## sull1102 (Sep 23, 2018)

drjeff said:


> My bad, I had the name of the lifts flipped in my head!  The Alpine lift that goes to mid mountain and serves the alpine slides and Sun Mountain Flyer ride was running as usual.  The Sun Chair, that shares common lower towers with the Alpine lift, but goes about 3/4ths of the way up, was the one with the chairs and haul rope off!!


Oh good! I was just thinking the absolute last thing Bromley needs or deserves right now is more infrastructure woes.

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## Smellytele (Sep 25, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> You can also run the lift much slower and add more cabins, I've been told this makes a short lift line, fewer people on the slopes and more people actually riding on the lift. Variations on how a lift is set up can create different skiing experiences I guess. Psychologically speaking I bet most people prefer to sit in a comfortable cabin that provides a nice social experience than standing on a long line as well as having less crowded slopes to ski even if the ride up is a little longer.



In the scenario given it was stated that there was going to have less cabins so the same capacity. Same amount of people on the rope at any given time. Gets you nothing except 6 smelly people in a cabin instead of 4.


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## machski (Sep 25, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> In the scenario given it was stated that there was going to have less cabins so the same capacity. Same amount of people on the rope at any given time. Gets you nothing except 6 smelly people in a cabin instead of 4.


I seriously doubt that the crossarms are wide enough to have appropriate tower clearance for anything greater than a 4 pax cabin.  Not to mention the tri-pod towers were reused from the original gondola, so doubt they would be designed for a heavier line load.

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## bdfreetuna (Sep 25, 2018)

slatham said:


> Blow the mice season is upon us and NEXT month Killington and others will hopefully be blowing snow.



Wow I really have not been keeping track of time and dates. Thanks for the reminder... we could be skiing in about a month!


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## Jully (Sep 25, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Wow I really have not been keeping track of time and dates. Thanks for the reminder... we could be skiing in about a month!



I didn't see any snowmaking tests except Shawnee this month. Still time, but I thought both K and SR usually have a nice photoshoot.


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## Newpylong (Sep 26, 2018)

It's a little early still, but close. Shawnee was just testing water and many others have done so too.


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## machski (Sep 26, 2018)

Jully said:


> I didn't see any snowmaking tests except Shawnee this month. Still time, but I thought both K and SR usually have a nice photoshoot.


Two weekends ago, SR was finishing the new feed line tie into the on mountain snowflake factory.  If that is complete now, I have no doubt the first sub 32 morning they get from now on, you will see a test to check the line and system.

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## slatham (Sep 28, 2018)

The prior questions on Bromley's Sun Mountain Lift (double) have been answered via a photo on social media of the spool of a new haul rope for the lift.


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## drjeff (Sep 28, 2018)

slatham said:


> The prior questions on Bromley's Sun Mountain Lift (double) have been answered via a photo on social media of the spool of a new haul rope for the lift.


Yup, I saw that on their Instagram page today as well

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## machski (Sep 29, 2018)

machski said:


> I seriously doubt that the crossarms are wide enough to have appropriate tower clearance for anything greater than a 4 pax cabin.  Not to mention the tri-pod towers were reused from the original gondola, so doubt they would be designed for a heavier line load.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


So, a friend who works at Loon told me they dropped $32K/cabin AND the mountain is still seriously pushing to replace the entire thing in 4 years with a new one that has bigger cabins.  Makes me wonder if Loon/Boyne has a plan for the old one given the coin they dropped on cabins for only a 4 year run possibly.

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## Jully (Sep 29, 2018)

That's nuts. Arent there like 120 cabins? So $4,000,000. It wouldn't shock me if they did scrap it after 4 years, but nice to think they'll reuse it somewhere.


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## Newpylong (Sep 29, 2018)

There's less than 75 carriers on that lift.


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## Jully (Sep 29, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> There's less than 75 carriers on that lift.



Ah, well I'm off there.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 29, 2018)

machski said:


> So, a friend who works at Loon told me they dropped $32K/cabin AND the mountain is still seriously pushing to replace the entire thing in 4 years with a new one that has bigger cabins.  Makes me wonder if Loon/Boyne has a plan for the old one given the coin they dropped on cabins for only a 4 year run possibly.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


$32k a cabin? Do they come with heated leather seats and Apple car play?

That's crazy for how little is involved in materials and technology in a basic 4 seat Gondola cabin.

Here's a thought for Boyne.  When they replace it, move the Loon Gondola up to Sugarloaf and run it up the old Bucksaw line.  That would take some pressure off of the Superquad and provide weather protected lift access to Bullwinkle's for weekend and holiday evening meals and off season weddings. 

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## WoodCore (Sep 29, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> $32k a cabin? Do they come with heated leather seats and Apple car play?
> 
> That's crazy for how little is involved in materials and technology in a basic 4 seat Gondola cabin.
> 
> ...



Genius!!


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## deadheadskier (Sep 30, 2018)

Good beginner and low intermediate terrain off Bucksaw with room to cut a couple more trails skiers left.  Wind sheltered area of the mountain.  Beginning skiers tend to like the protection from the elements a gondola provides.

Perfect fit

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## Newpylong (Sep 30, 2018)

That would make too much sense.


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## sull1102 (Sep 30, 2018)

The last set lasted a full 30 years before being replaced. This new set sure looks identical in every possible way so even after 4 years they'll be good for another 25 years of service! Also serves as a nice way to spread the cost of a new gondi if the cabins are paid for 4 years early. I really would love to know if anyone in management was pushing for a full on replacement. They could be NH's first bubble lift, something Mount Snow and Okemo have been marketing like mad for years now. They certainly have the demand. 

Of course there's also the East Basin lift that's on it's last legs...

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## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 30, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's a thought for Boyne.  When they replace it, move the Loon Gondola up to Sugarloaf and run it up the old Bucksaw line.  That would take some pressure off of the Superquad and provide weather protected lift access to Bullwinkle's for weekend and holiday evening meals and off season weddings.



You just might be on to what their plan is. Would explain why they don't seem to do anything with the lift situation at the Loaf yet...


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## tumbler (Oct 1, 2018)

Just read that Stowe is taking out their RFID gates and going to handheld scanners.  Interesting, is this a Vail thing to not have gates?


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## andrec10 (Oct 1, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Just read that Stowe is taking out their RFID gates and going to handheld scanners.  Interesting, is this a Vail thing to not have gates?



Nothing like going backwards!


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## WJenness (Oct 1, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Just read that Stowe is taking out their RFID gates and going to handheld scanners.  Interesting, is this a Vail thing to not have gates?



Last time I skied at Park City there were gates at the major lifts. The minor lifts had handheld scanners... 

I wonder if they're just going to handheld scanners and see how that works and then possibly add gates to major lifts next year if necessary or something.


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## cdskier (Oct 1, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Just read that Stowe is taking out their RFID gates and going to handheld scanners.  Interesting, is this a Vail thing to not have gates?





andrec10 said:


> Nothing like going backwards!



If they are handheld RFID scanners, then I could actually see that being faster than gates. It did surprise me a bit when I read about that last week though, although at the same time if they need to change the system to be compatible with Vail's system, perhaps handheld scanners are simply cheaper than installing new gates.


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## Edd (Oct 1, 2018)

tumbler said:


> Just read that Stowe is taking out their RFID gates and going to handheld scanners.  Interesting, is this a Vail thing to not have gates?



I find that hard to believe. Where did you read that?


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## cdskier (Oct 1, 2018)

Edd said:


> I find that hard to believe. Where did you read that?



100% true. It was in a Q&A with Stowe's GM in VT Ski+Ride: https://vtskiandride.com/myth-busting-stowe/

Here's the relevant section:


> Q: You’re eliminating the RFID gates and bringing the EpicMix app to Stowe. What are the coolest things that app can do?
> 
> A: We’re replacing the gates with hand scanners, which are much more efficient. We’ll also have gantries that can read your Epic pass and relay information to the EpicMix app.  EpicMix is pretty cool: it can tell you how long lift lines are, track your vertical, read digital trail maps, track your family and even earn you badges for things like skiing all the lifts at one resort in one day. We even have a Jetsetter badge which one couple and an instructor earned by skiing Vail, Park City, Utah and Heavenly, in Lake Tahoe, all in one day and flying their private jet between them.


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## Edd (Oct 1, 2018)

cdskier said:


> 100% true. It was in a Q&A with Stowe's GM in VT Ski+Ride: https://vtskiandride.com/myth-busting-stowe/
> 
> Here's the relevant section:



That’s a bunch of nifty stuff but I’m questioning the “more efficient” statement. Gates can scan multiple people at the same time. Hand scanners, even with two guys using them at the same time, would be slower.


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## urungus (Oct 2, 2018)

Edd said:


> That’s a bunch of nifty stuff but I’m questioning the “more efficient” statement. Gates can scan multiple people at the same time. Hand scanners, even with two guys using them at the same time, would be slower.



What about the noob who can’t get his RFID card to work, and is stuck in the gate blocking everyone behind him?  Also the gates make me feel like I am going through airport security...


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## drjeff (Oct 2, 2018)

Having been through the hand scanners that Vail Resorts use a few years ago, their system is pretty efficient. The scanners work from 5+ feet away, and make 3 different audible tones. One for a kids pass, one for an adult pass and one for an invalid pass. Even at the base of Vail on a powder morning waiting to load one of their gondolas, their scanners kept the line moving efficiently.  And as an aside, as a tall person (I'm 6'3" before I step into my ski boots and bindings/skis), the RFID gates can be more of a pain for me, having to crouch down to get my RFID pass at a readable level for the RFID gates I pass through when I'm occasionally chaperoning one of my kids school ski club trips to Wachusett


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## Edd (Oct 2, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Having been through the hand scanners that Vail Resorts use a few years ago, their system is pretty efficient. The scanners work from 5+ feet away, and make 3 different audible tones. One for a kids pass, one for an adult pass and one for an invalid pass. Even at the base of Vail on a powder morning waiting to load one of their gondolas, their scanners kept the line moving efficiently.  And as an aside, as a tall person (I'm 6'3" before I step into my ski boots and bindings/skis), the RFID gates can be more of a pain for me, having to crouch down to get my RFID pass at a readable level for the RFID gates I pass through when I'm occasionally chaperoning one of my kids school ski club trips to Wachusett



Ah, I’m apparently unaware of the better hand scanners. I’ve never noticed ones that work easily from far away. The scanners I’m accustomed to suck and gum up the works.


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## WJenness (Oct 2, 2018)

drjeff said:


> Having been through the hand scanners that Vail Resorts use a few years ago, their system is pretty efficient. The scanners work from 5+ feet away, and make 3 different audible tones. One for a kids pass, one for an adult pass and one for an invalid pass. Even at the base of Vail on a powder morning waiting to load one of their gondolas, their scanners kept the line moving efficiently.  And as an aside, as a tall person (I'm 6'3" before I step into my ski boots and bindings/skis), the RFID gates can be more of a pain for me, having to crouch down to get my RFID pass at a readable level for the RFID gates I pass through when I'm occasionally chaperoning one of my kids school ski club trips to Wachusett



As someone who is 6'4", I totally agree with you on the RFID thing.
Very thankful for the jacket I purchased a couple of years ago that has a wrist zipper pocket specifically for RFID passes. Much easier to get the gate to activate when I can just move my hand to whatever spot the gate wants it to be in.

Before this jacket, I had a chest pocket I put the RFID cards in, which led to a lot of bending and twisting to get some gates to open.

-w


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## WJenness (Oct 2, 2018)

Also worth noting that the gantries they talk about are probably pretty similar to (if not the same as) the tech that Waterville began using last year.

Works from plenty of distance, with no need for gates.


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## mbedle (Oct 2, 2018)

Keep in mind that there are two types of scanners being used these days. Barcode readers can be tough and time consuming. RFID readers are usually more efficient, since you don't have to actually see the pass to scan it.


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## Edd (Oct 2, 2018)

WJenness said:


> Very thankful for the jacket I purchased a couple of years ago that has a wrist zipper pocket specifically for RFID passes. Much easier to get the gate to activate when I can just move my hand to whatever spot the gate wants it to be in.
> 
> -w



My last jacket had that pocket and I loved it. I was surprised that the Flylow jacket I bought last year didn’t come with it. However, being 5’11”, it worked fine in the chest pocket last year. The Axess brand gates at Sunapee and Gunstock are the most responsive RFID scanners I’ve seen.


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## machski (Oct 2, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> I had occasion to talk to the CEO at Sunday River a couple weeks ago. The big improvement is the water line form the pond to the pump house. The pond is over near the covered bridge by Sunday River and the pump house is next to Barker Lodge. The new pipe is European, concrete lined steel pipe, bigger than the last, double the capacity. They did add some more pump capability as well, but have not maxed out the pipes volume. Leaving room for more volume, forward thinking!!!
> 
> I casually mentioned that the decision was driven by the 3 breaks in the pipe??? He said there were actually 8 breaks, the public only knew about 3. Good move, I said! He also told me that put about 2 million into maintenance this summer as well. Windows, flooring, painting, culverts, etc.... We saw them installing culverts under 3 mile trail.
> 
> ...


Interesting, when I talked to him at Tough Mountain he said many knew they blew the line 7 times but the actual number was 14 (I knew about 3 myself, but guessing those were the big blowouts)!  Irrelevant now but I wonder which version was correct.  They can keep the 5000 undeveloped, undeveloped.  Show me you can handle making snow on ALL of your snowmaking terrain first, upgrade the aging lifts that need it (ahhmm, Barker at a minimum and probably Aurora too) then they can think about expanding again.  I would want to see the Western waterline installed and some automation added to the system too before another westward expansion of the resort.

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## machski (Oct 2, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> You just might be on to what their plan is. Would explain why they don't seem to do anything with the lift situation at the Loaf yet...


Not a bad idea, would likely need new towers as I don't think they would want to use the old tripod ones again.

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## WJenness (Oct 2, 2018)

machski said:


> <snip>upgrade the aging lifts that need it (ahhmm, Barker at a minimum and probably Aurora too) then they can think about expanding again.<snip>



Tempest, PLEASE.


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## Jully (Oct 2, 2018)

machski said:


> Not a bad idea, would likely need new towers as I don't think they would want to use the old tripod ones again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Was the drive/terminal components rebuilt/worked on significantly anytime during the lifts tenure? Its old for a detach in general I thought too.


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## Jully (Oct 2, 2018)

machski said:


> Interesting, when I talked to him at Tough Mountain he said many knew they blew the line 7 times but the actual number was 14 (I knew about 3 myself, but guessing those were the big blowouts)!  Irrelevant now but I wonder which version was correct.  They can keep the 5000 undeveloped, undeveloped.  Show me you can handle making snow on ALL of your snowmaking terrain first, upgrade the aging lifts that need it (ahhmm, Barker at a minimum and probably Aurora too) then they can think about expanding again.  I would want to see the Western waterline installed and some automation added to the system too before another westward expansion of the resort.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Aurora has been worrying me the past two seasons. The drive has sounded horrible more than a few times and they were loading it as a triple for awhile as well as taking it completely offline for at least one midwinter weekend.



uphillklimber said:


> I agree with your sentiment. At a town hall meeting with the employees, he stated that the development of that area was the difference between half a million skier days and a million skier days. They simply don't have the business to validate expansion. Get all the issues fixed and maybe they attract more, but it's a business that has less and less people getting involved.



Are you saying the message was developing that area was the key to getting to 1,000,000 skier days or they won't expand to that area until they reach 1,000,000 skier days?


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## machski (Oct 2, 2018)

Jully said:


> Was the drive/terminal components rebuilt/worked on significantly anytime during the lifts tenure? Its old for a detach in general I thought too.


In general, no.  I have a feeling being a three season lift, the gearbox and maybe drive have seen some significant love.  But it's still a chain/clip cadence system at the base and summit and for the base anyway, was designed into the building, not as a standalone terminal.

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## machski (Oct 2, 2018)

Jully said:


> Aurora has been worrying me the past two seasons. The drive has sounded horrible more than a few times and they were loading it as a triple for awhile as well as taking it completely offline for at least one midwinter weekend.



Yup, and it certainly feels like the slowest fixed grip lift on the hill even though it is one of the shortest.  

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## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2018)

Aurora never bothered me much when I was a passholder there.  It's only about ten minutes and I feel keeping it a FG made it a good place to escape crowds.  

Tempest was the one that bothered me the most.  I always parked at Whitecap and just seemed to take forever to get out of there on that lift.  Plus at the time, Tempest was a trail that had reliable bumps.  So, lapping that was painful. 

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## skimagic (Oct 2, 2018)

Link to Lodge updates.with pics.  Ascutney has new outdoor center, Mr snow carinthia is on track for end of the year..Catamount is in on the action too with renovation to main Lodge, which is great since it was pretty beat up. 
Tenney will have  food and a bar this season, lets hope they have good snow this year. . 

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=719


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## jg17 (Oct 2, 2018)

Edd said:


> Ah, I’m apparently unaware of the better hand scanners. I’ve never noticed ones that work easily from far away. The scanners I’m accustomed to suck and gum up the works.



Seconded on the handheld scanners. The ones I had to use had to be put up right against the card to scan and didn't make any kind of noise, so you were just trying to see a tiny light go off. It was so bad that we rarely used it, since we couldn't keep up with the chairs even when there was no line. This was the Axess system, although the gates were pretty reliable at our other lifts that had them. 

The Axess gates cost around half a million just to install a single set, so definitely not cheap...


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## Newpylong (Oct 3, 2018)

In my opinion, Boyne's handling of their lift system (not maintenance, but vision) leaves much to be desired.

-Spruce FG Triple instead of FG Quad. They say the trail layout is better fit for a triple, but this move was just not forward thinking. You run less chairs if you're concerned about downhill traffic.
-Carpet loader on Tempest is a royal waste of time, they're only going to get 50 FPM out of it. That is a critical lift that most complain about. It needs to be a HSQ - reusing the towers and starting right outside the lodge, extending up a little higher with some trail work for improved access to Obsession. People might actually ski over there more if the lift wasn't the worst ever.
-New Loon gondola cabins - waste of money.
-No movement at all at the Loaf outside of Skyline which only went in because of the double failure.

End of my rant, which I usually refrain from doing.


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## Jully (Oct 3, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> In my opinion, Boyne's handling of their lift system (not maintenance, but vision) leaves much to be desired.
> 
> -Spruce FG Triple instead of FG Quad. They say the trail layout is better fit for a triple, but this move was just not forward thinking. You run less chairs if you're concerned about downhill traffic.
> -Carpet loader on Tempest is a royal waste of time, they're only going to get 50 FPM out of it. That is a critical lift that most complain about. It needs to be a HSQ - reusing the towers and starting right outside the lodge, extending up a little higher with some trail work for improved access to Obsession. People might actually ski over there more if the lift wasn't the worst ever.
> ...



Agree with every point here. Spruce really confused me. Rumor from SR I heard was that they got a great deal on the triple and wanted to reuse the carpet loader. $2.1 million for a new lift (I think was the price) does seem to be quite a good deal. No idea what Dopp would have given them for a FGQ price though.

The fact that SR says there are 25 years of life left in Tempest is really disheartening. I'm sure they are not wrong, but it just means it is going no where. Its especially frustrating because they don't want to replace it because no one uses the area, but no one uses the area because the lift sucks! Same is said for the lodge there too. Best spot on the mountain to be on a warm April day.


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## sull1102 (Oct 3, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> In my opinion, Boyne's handling of their lift system (not maintenance, but vision) leaves much to be desired.
> 
> -Spruce FG Triple instead of FG Quad. They say the trail layout is better fit for a triple, but this move was just not forward thinking. You run less chairs if you're concerned about downhill traffic.
> -Carpet loader on Tempest is a royal waste of time, they're only going to get 50 FPM out of it. That is a critical lift that most complain about. It needs to be a HSQ - reusing the towers and starting right outside the lodge, extending up a little higher with some trail work for improved access to Obsession. People might actually ski over there more if the lift wasn't the worst ever.
> ...



Agree with everything you listed and then some other moves they have made as well. Some moves make literally no sense, Loon could've just deep cleaned the gondi cabins and waited a few years until they go for a full replacement. Others, like you said just no forward thinking. Why go for a triple in 2018? I honestly think they might have gotten a deal on it because it was some left over stock or something, there just aren't many triples going in these days.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 3, 2018)

I gotta give Boyne a bit of a pass because of the whole CNL thing.  It seems as though the CNL holdings didn't do much in New England for major lift improvements since they took over in 2008.  

About all there's been aside from emergency replacements with fiscally responsible repairs has been adding the Northstar six pack to Okemo, moving that HSQ to Sunapee and then Sunday River adding the Chondola.  I guess Okemo added the lift below Southface, but that appears to be real estate funded and motivated.

Have to assume that much of the lack of lift improvements in recent years with Boyne and Triple Peaks has to do with CNL.

Boyne is the owner again of Loon, SR and SL. Probably cost them a ton to do and will take a few solid profit years to seriously invest again in big ticket itema. 

 Gondi car purchase at Loon is obviously puzzling.  Unless it's part of a larger vision like my Loaf/Bucksaw idea.  But honestly, as much as the Gondola sucks, I think the biggest priority at Loon should be replacing Seven Brothers with a HS6.  Move the masses out that base area to either get to the North Peak area, hit the park or access the longest beginner trails on the hill. 

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## machski (Oct 4, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I gotta give Boyne a bit of a pass because of the whole CNL thing.  It seems as though the CNL holdings didn't do much in New England for major lift improvements since they took over in 2008.
> 
> About all there's been aside from emergency replacements with fiscally responsible repairs has been adding the Northstar six pack to Okemo, moving that HSQ to Sunapee and then Sunday River adding the Chondola.  I guess Okemo added the lift below Southface, but that appears to be real estate funded and motivated.
> 
> ...


Seven Bros was supposed to be replaced with a HSQ and the triple moved to East Basin.  Obviously neither happened.  May get replaced with a HSQ but I can't see a HSS there ever.  Both the load and unload areas are tight (well, the load has some room but that whole area on weekends/peak days is already a cluster F) and the trails just don't need that volume deposited out there.  The only place on Loon that could have handled a 6 in my opinion was Lincoln Express.  I kind of doubt the Gondi gets changed out inside of a decade, they really need to complete South and get a real learning pod up and running.  It's the one thing Loon has always severely lacked and South needs a real base.  The tent lodge was fine for a few years but is long past being acceptable.

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## machski (Oct 4, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> 14 blowouts!!! Glad they pulled the trigger on replacement. I am hopeful they get back to what they were for snow making. I still remember a few years back when there wasn't any natural snow to speak of and the River still gave us a season with their snow making. Wasn't that the year they did over 100 days of snow making?


14, 8 hell even 3 is too many, especially when your SR and your reputation has been built on great, reliable conditions because of your superior Snowmaking system.  Not to mention they were supposed to be done with the plan to DOUBLE water push by now, but that all got delayed and now places like Snow have passed SR in terms of volume and others like Stowe are nearly on par if not slightly ahead.  This is a long needed first step to gearing up the system.  I believe a second feed line coming in on the west side from the river is still on deck to go to doubling water, which would put 16000+ gpm on the hill.  I still believe to make use of that pump capacity, they will have to automate at least some of the system (either fully or semi-auto like Loon uses on main mountain) so it will be interesting to see where the next $$ go into the system.

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## Jully (Oct 4, 2018)

machski said:


> 14, 8 hell even 3 is too many, especially when your SR and your reputation has been built on great, reliable conditions because of your superior Snowmaking system.  Not to mention they were supposed to be done with the plan to DOUBLE water push by now, but that all got delayed and now places like Snow have passed SR in terms of volume and others like Stowe are nearly on par if not slightly ahead.  This is a long needed first step to gearing up the system.  I believe a second feed line coming in on the west side from the river is still on deck to go to doubling water, which would put 16000+ gpm on the hill.  I still believe to make use of that pump capacity, they will have to automate at least some of the system (either fully or semi-auto like Loon uses on main mountain) so it will be interesting to see where the next $$ go into the system.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Honestly I think Stowe is decently ahead of SR in snowmaking these days. They're opening looong runs on multiple mountains before SR moves to 3 total peaks some years it feels like.

I'm really excited to see where SR goes with snowmaking improvements. The team there gets it and I think wants to be innovative and get back to excellent snowmaking.


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## Jully (Oct 4, 2018)

machski said:


> Seven Bros was supposed to be replaced with a HSQ and the triple moved to East Basin.  Obviously neither happened.  May get replaced with a HSQ but I can't see a HSS there ever.  Both the load and unload areas are tight (well, the load has some room but that whole area on weekends/peak days is already a cluster F) and the trails just don't need that volume deposited out there.  The only place on Loon that could have handled a 6 in my opinion was Lincoln Express.  I kind of doubt the Gondi gets changed out inside of a decade, they really need to complete South and get a real learning pod up and running.  It's the one thing Loon has always severely lacked and South needs a real base.  The tent lodge was fine for a few years but is long past being acceptable.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



South Peak is just sad at Loon these days. A lot of the Loon base facilities feel kind of tired in my opinion. I thought WV's lodge (objectively in horrible shape for years) wasn't that far below Loon's facilities. A new, substantive lodge at South Peak would really help alleviate the crowding there.

I also feel like Kanc could be a HS6.


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## machski (Oct 4, 2018)

Jully said:


> South Peak is just sad at Loon these days. A lot of the Loon base facilities feel kind of tired in my opinion. I thought WV's lodge (objectively in horrible shape for years) wasn't that far below Loon's facilities. A new, substantive lodge at South Peak would really help alleviate the crowding there.
> 
> I also feel like Kanc could be a HS6.


Kanc as a HSS isn't a bad idea, it has several runs right off it and allows direct feed to East Basin/North Peak.  They could reuse the quad for 7Bros.  Octagon lodge did get a nice new deck this year.

Waterville's lodge is getting a huge upgrade this year, should be pretty nice when fully open by Xmas.

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## Newpylong (Oct 4, 2018)

machski said:


> 14, 8 hell even 3 is too many, especially when your SR and your reputation has been built on great, reliable conditions because of your superior Snowmaking system.  Not to mention they were supposed to be done with the plan to DOUBLE water push by now, but that all got delayed and now places like Snow have passed SR in terms of volume and others like Stowe are nearly on par if not slightly ahead.  This is a long needed first step to gearing up the system.  I believe a second feed line coming in on the west side from the river is still on deck to go to doubling water, which would put 16000+ gpm on the hill.  I still believe to make use of that pump capacity, they will have to automate at least some of the system (either fully or semi-auto like Loon uses on main mountain) so it will be interesting to see where the next $$ go into the system.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



The achilles heal with SR is the way their system was built. The layout is poor and it is very maintenance and labor intensive and they spend a tremendous amountof energy pumping water long distances with high head loss. A water source on the other side will help but then they will need to back out of the rigs on the east side that were in place to get water to the west.

That river line was swiss cheese. They went from 18" steel to 20" ductile iron, so they'll get less friction loss and it'll last forever.


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## machski (Oct 4, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> The achilles heal with SR is the way their system was built. The layout is poor and it is very maintenance and labor intensive and they spend a tremendous amountof energy pumping water long distances with high head loss. A water source on the other side will help but then they will need to back out of the rigs on the east side that were in place to get water to the west.
> 
> That river line was swiss cheese. They went from 18" steel to 20" ductile iron, so they'll get less friction loss and it'll last forever.


Well, yeah.  They just kept stapling on more line expansion to the west.  Aurora to Jordan, the plumbing is a mess.  My hope is they look at all of it closely and rethink it before trying to tie in a west feed line.

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## machski (Oct 5, 2018)

Jully said:


> I didn't see any snowmaking tests except Shawnee this month. Still time, but I thought both K and SR usually have a nice photoshoot.


Here you go, new feed line at SR complete.


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## machski (Oct 5, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> It seems to me that they really need to install a trunk line, capable of their required needs, now and somewhat into the future and hook all the branches to that. A little bit of proper engineering. But that costs money.... And it's not splashy. How many people will say they had snow making before they spent all this money, I don't see any difference.
> 
> I mean, they can make the new line they just installed splashy, with some real good snow making this year, folks can and will appreciate that after last year. But how will they get the wow factor for a new trunk line to Jordan?
> 
> ...


The wow factor for the Jordan line will be when they blow Barker to Jordan simultaneously and Jordan is open by first week of December along with all that usually is by then   it will be like Snow's early season wow factor was last year with West lake coming online.  They already had good Snowmaking but their huge increase in water push took it to a whole other level and was quite an obvious difference.

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## machski (Oct 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Agree with everything you listed and then some other moves they have made as well. Some moves make literally no sense, Loon could've just deep cleaned the gondi cabins and waited a few years until they go for a full replacement. Others, like you said just no forward thinking. Why go for a triple in 2018? I honestly think they might have gotten a deal on it because it was some left over stock or something, there just aren't many triples going in these days.


Boyne had just ordered and installed the same model Triple the year prior to Spruce at Big Sky to replace Challenger.  The other issue with going to a quad was there was a ton of ledge they had to blast for the carpet loader vault at Spruce Base terminal.  Upping it to a quad width vault would have required new blasting, raising the cost.

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## ThinkSnow (Oct 10, 2018)

On the Kmart website, apparently this is the Season of More.  What exactly does this mean: _[FONT=&quot] "....additional availability of intermediate trails"[/FONT]_


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## drjeff (Oct 10, 2018)

Attitash has pictures of their crew taking down the Top Notch Double on their FB page this morning.  Their social media crew is semi dropping hints that it may be to help make space for a future HS lift installation to the summit.....


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## deadheadskier (Oct 10, 2018)

I'm not sure it would make sense to run a summit HSQ up the old Hall line.  Only way that makes sense is if they move the Yankee base to where the triple is and run it up that line.  There wouldn't be enough space to put in a HSQ where the Hall double is/was adjacent to the Yankee base terminal.  The liftline cluster would be a mess. 

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## bdfreetuna (Oct 10, 2018)

All Killington's improvements are good news in my book. However this is a slight disappointment especially during mid-winter peak season it would be nice to expect all non-redundant lifts to operate on a daily basis. At least it will still be un-crowded over there on weekends, even with a new lift that pod just doesn't attract heavy traffic, I'm sure it will be uncrowded as it was when the old lift was running.

If Juggernaut is being retired it would be nice to see some tree lines cut to skier's right of Jug over the next period of time. That could make it a real sleeper pod.

*Will the South Ridge Quad run every day?*
  We anticipate that the South Ridge Quad will operate most  weekends and holiday days. We don’t anticipate running the lift during  non-holiday midweek periods.


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## skiur (Oct 10, 2018)

If you think the 6 pack wont be crowded on the weekend then I've got a bridge to sell you!  Tourons always flock to the shiny new toys and Killington will be hyping the shit out of it.  Fortunately, the crowds at the new 6 pack will ease congestion at other lifts.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Oct 10, 2018)

skiur said:


> If you think the 6 pack wont be crowded on the weekend then I've got a bridge to sell you!  Tourons always flock to the shiny new toys and Killington will be hyping the shit out of it.  Fortunately, the crowds at the new 6 pack will ease congestion at other lifts.



That's for sure the way it works at mt snow.... For a lift I seldom ride on weekends/holidays it was an amazing upgrade for the rest of the mountain's sake.


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## machski (Oct 10, 2018)

skiur said:


> If you think the 6 pack wont be crowded on the weekend then I've got a bridge to sell you!  Tourons always flock to the shiny new toys and Killington will be hyping the shit out of it.  Fortunately, the crowds at the new 6 pack will ease congestion at other lifts.


I believe he was referring to the South Ridge pod and quad, not the Snowdon 6.

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## machski (Oct 10, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> On the Kmart website, apparently this is the Season of More.  What exactly does this mean: _[FONT=&quot] "....additional availability of intermediate trails"[/FONT]_


It means the uninterrupted TTB intermediates on Snowdon thanks to the new tunnel and removal of the Poma.

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## gregnye (Oct 10, 2018)

machski said:


> It means the uninterrupted TTB intermediates on Snowdon thanks to the new tunnel and removal of the Poma.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Interestingly enough, Mouse Trap no longer exists. So now they will have one less expert trail to market as "open" during early season


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## Scruffy (Oct 10, 2018)

machski said:


> It means the uninterrupted TTB intermediates on Snowdon thanks to the new tunnel and removal of the Poma.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



How does the removal of the Poma change anything in terms of TTB for intermediates?


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## machski (Oct 10, 2018)

Scruffy said:


> How does the removal of the Poma change anything in terms of TTB for intermediates?


I thought they might add a run down the old line.  They apparently did not.

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## Scruffy (Oct 10, 2018)

machski said:


> I thought they might add a run down the old line.  They apparently did not.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Ah, OK. Yeah they'll just make Bunny Buster wider.


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## JimG. (Oct 10, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> That's for sure the way it works at mt snow.... For a lift I seldom ride on weekends/holidays it was an amazing upgrade for the rest of the mountain's sake.



Yeah Snowdon will now be a shit show on weekends. I loved the old lift on weekends because it was usually pretty empty. Didn't care that it was slow. Anything that keeps crowds away is a plus.

No more. Just means I'll spend more weekdays at K. For that schedule the new 6 pack will be a true bonus!


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 10, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Interestingly enough, Mouse Trap no longer exists. So now they will have one less expert trail to market as "open" during early season


What do you mean it doesn't exists? I saw it last weekend. 

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## spiderpig (Oct 10, 2018)

ALLSKIING said:


> What do you mean it doesn't exists? I saw it last weekend.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app



It's off the map and blue now.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 10, 2018)

JimG. said:


> Yeah Snowdon will now be a shit show on weekends. I loved the old lift on weekends because it was usually pretty empty. Didn't care that it was slow. Anything that keeps crowds away is a plus.
> 
> No more. Just means I'll spend more weekdays at K. For that schedule the new 6 pack will be a true bonus!


It will be fine Jim. The intermediates wont ski the trees or North Star ect and it wont take 10 mins to get back up the hill.

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## ALLSKIING (Oct 10, 2018)

spiderpig said:


> It's off the map and blue now.


There is an updated map?

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## cdskier (Oct 10, 2018)

ALLSKIING said:


> There is an updated map?



There are sections of updated maps (with a disclaimer that they may not be the final versions) in each of the information sections on the mountain improvements:
https://www.killington.com/the-moun...ain-improvements/snowdon-trails?season=winter


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## WJenness (Oct 11, 2018)

Worth noting that Great Bear now has snowmaking and the 'cop out' has been removed, the trail will now be marked black top to bottom.

source: Killington's website: https://www.killington.com/the-moun...ain-improvements/snowdon-trails?season=winter

I wouldn't be surprised to see them try to open that up early to have another black open. (Though it isn't exactly a full length run, you'll have to ski Chute & GN to lap it.

Bonus: New trail map at the link above as well.


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## gregnye (Oct 11, 2018)

spiderpig said:


> It's off the map and blue now.



Yeah Mouse Trap has been removed. On a similar note, over on Skype Peak, the Stash has been shortened, and the lower part is a blue named "Bear Trap". Like Come on killington--Are you really that uncreative with trail names?

Source:
https://www.killington.com/the-mountain/mountain-info/mountain-improvements/south-side-trails


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## bdfreetuna (Oct 11, 2018)

Hopefully the "removal" of Mouse Trap along with the greater continuous flow of Great Northern as well as Chute & Bunny Buster achieves the expected results. Improved skier flow and less icy high traffic confusion.

Not sure why they are spending any $ on Great Bear especially considering how early that trail often opens on natural snow. A tunnel? Ok. Kind of a low-traffic trail but maybe they want to change that.

Gotta give K props for addressing the most common complaints (Snowdon congestion in particular).

I'm always in favor of black diamonds getting turned into blue squares (just to combat the plight of trail rating inflation). Not sure if it will be any less steep in that section but I assume it'll be groomed a lot more.


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## Newpylong (Oct 11, 2018)

Bear Trap is actually a familiar name. It used to be the current day Upper Bear Claw right next door, and Upper Bear Claw used to be the Stash before the park went in. So the names will swap with Lower Stash park closing.

The snowmaking is going in to Great Bear to provide more downhill capacity with the new lift going in. It won't be a signature trail, but it will become more of a core run after the tunnel goes in next year.

I like the changes in general, but especially to Bunny Buster basically returning to the its original routing/name before they built Mouse Trap which blew away Middle Bunny.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 11, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There are sections of updated maps (with a disclaimer that they may not be the final versions) in each of the information sections on the mountain improvements:
> https://www.killington.com/the-moun...ain-improvements/snowdon-trails?season=winter


Interesting! As I looked up at it this weekend the trail looked completely the same.

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## JimG. (Oct 11, 2018)

ALLSKIING said:


> It will be fine Jim. The intermediates wont ski the trees or North Star ect and it wont take 10 mins to get back up the hill.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app



True...now you will have to wait 10 mins in line.


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## ss20 (Oct 11, 2018)

Crowding will balance out on the hill.  With the old Quad going to South Ridge, the new 6 pack is completely a net gain in eating people.  Figuring around 90 chairs total, 45 going uphill averaging 5 people per chair is 225 people going up.  Add in another 200 in line (that's a reasonable 5 minute wait or less).  That's 425 people net gain to Killington's capacity.  Figure a higher utilization of terrain on South Ridge and it's fair to say the mountain can comfortably handle another 500 people.  Not a huge number for a resort that can attract 15k on a busy Saturday but enough to take some pressure off the rest of the mountain for sure.

Another way to look at 500 people...
10 tour buses
125 family SUV's
63 full gondi cabins.


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## Newpylong (Oct 12, 2018)

Plus the cripple will be running on those days.


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## drjeff (Oct 12, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Plus the cripple will be running on those days.



I wouldn't be surprised at all if the cripple, when it runs, will be for the KMS athlete's only the majority of the time. The public's best chance for access wouldn't surprise me if it was just during times when they're waiting to get the Snowdon 6 de-iced. Time will tell....


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## Newpylong (Oct 12, 2018)

According to K ops personnel, as of now if the lift runs it will be open to the public. If there is not enough traffic to warrant running it, KMS will be using the 6 pack. Round trip time with no to minimal line there vs midstation is a wash. 

Furthermore from a liability perspective you should not operate a lift to the mid-station only.


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## ss20 (Oct 12, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> According to K ops personnel, as of now if the lift runs it will be open to the public. If there is not enough traffic to warrant running it, KMS will be using the 6 pack. Round trip time with no to minimal line there vs midstation is a wash.
> 
> Furthermore from a liability perspective you should not operate a lift to the mid-station only.



Good to hear.  Always appreciate your insight Newpylong.  

Crazy to think that now there'll be 2 HSQ's, the gondola, a triple, and a 6 pack running out of the base of the North side of the resort.  25 years ago it was 1 HSQ, a triple, and 3 doubles.  All that added lift capacity with the same lodges lol.


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## raisingarizona (Oct 12, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Furthermore from a liability perspective you should not operate a lift to the mid-station only.



The Arizona Snowbowl has been doing that for years!  

Hopefully they replace the old triple soon, that thing is ancient.


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## kbroderick (Oct 12, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Fun fact, he also told me that currently, the River encompasses 3000 acres, and they have 5000 acres undeveloped out beyond Jordan. Between the lodges and hotels and operations and grounds, 3000 acres and 2 million maintenance budget, I'm saying wow!



If you're a visual learner, check out the parcel viewer (you'll have to search / pan / zoom otherwise get to Newry, as I don't see a direct-link option) and note that CNL owns a large parcel north of Nordic Knoll Rd (basically north across Sunday River Rd from the golf club, directly north of Nordic Knoll Rd) that goes all the way to the Sunday River Whitecap ridgeline overlooking Rt 26 through the Bear River valley.

I'm fairly sure they also have substantial holdings in Riley Township, but the unorganized township parcel data doesn't show ownership.


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## Jully (Oct 12, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Loading from the mid station is how the River generally opens the first week. You can load and unload at the bottom, but for skiing, you do laps at the mid station to the top. Ummmm... I'm not sure about the downloading, I may have that wrong, maybe there is one trail down...



I think Newpylong is saying going from bottom to mid station and forcing everyone to unload there is the liability problem because it is fairly easy to "miss" the unload.

I would image loading at the midstation and going to the top is less problematic.


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## Newpylong (Oct 12, 2018)

yes sir - Though I've seen places out west do it, Tramway boards and insurance carriers frown upon UN-loading at the mid-station only. There is no guarantee people will get off and generally stopping the lift and having someone jump off is not acceptable. Neither is sending someone to the top and around.

Killington was a little different than SR in that you used to download from the very top, the mid-station platform was only on the uphill side.


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 13, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I wouldn't be surprised at all if the cripple, when it runs, will be for the KMS athlete's only the majority of the time. The public's best chance for access wouldn't surprise me if it was just during times when they're waiting to get the Snowdon 6 de-iced. Time will tell....


I would have a serious problem with that if that happens to occur. Sometimes that's the only lift without a wait to get you to the higher lifts.

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## machski (Oct 13, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Loading from the mid station is how the River generally opens the first week. You can load and unload at the bottom, but for skiing, you do laps at the mid station to the top. Ummmm... I'm not sure about the downloading, I may have that wrong, maybe there is one trail down...


The official route down is often downloading from the midstation.  Often, they try to make all the way down the punches but often they come up short on opening day.  Lets just say in the past, the rope policy has been a bit relaxed (at least when they don't have an active groomer on the run). 

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## urungus (Oct 14, 2018)

Some great photos of the work at Killington (under Gallery menu in top right, choose “Killington Summer Projects 2018 > Construction Progress”). http://www.outdoorimages.ifp3.com/g...s-most-recent-to-oldest/5i5a3758/#/page/home/


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## cdskier (Oct 14, 2018)

urungus said:


> Some great photos of the work at Killington (under Gallery menu in top right, choose “Killington Summer Projects 2018 > Construction Progress”). http://www.outdoorimages.ifp3.com/g...s-most-recent-to-oldest/5i5a3758/#/page/home/



Those are some great photos...seems like they have a heck of a lot of work left to do though. I hope they didn't try to take on too much in one year.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Oct 15, 2018)

Correct me if i'm wrong...They are still still putting in towers!? This weather forecast is saying October skiing not major construction! No room for error here


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## Newpylong (Oct 15, 2018)

Like most lift installation, they always come to the wire, and over it.

The only lift needed by Thanksgiving is the Snowdon 6 and it will be done by then.


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## thetrailboss (Oct 15, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Like most lift installation, they always come to the wire, and over it.
> 
> The only lift needed by Thanksgiving is the Snowdon 6 and it will be done by then.



Exactly.  This is no surprise as to timing.  These are big projects with lots of reviews to complete, contractors, and many moving pieces.


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## drjeff (Oct 15, 2018)

My distinct feeling, with the speed that a lift goes together at the end, is that doubters of the Snowdon 6 being completed by Thanksgiving will soon have that "ah ha" moment as the terminal assembly and haul rope stringing gets moving quickly

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## machski (Oct 16, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  This is no surprise as to timing.  These are big projects with lots of reviews to complete, contractors, and many moving pieces.


And have to appease the Thrush!  With how quickly LP terminals go together, bet the Snowdon 6 is strong with chairs by Nov 1st.

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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 9, 2018)

Well, it wasn't by Thanksgiving, but it did open yesterday!


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## ALLSKIING (Dec 9, 2018)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Well, it wasn't by Thanksgiving, but it did open yesterday!


Nice improvement....now if people can figure out how to get off the thing maybe wony stop 6 times every ride up.

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