# Vermont Skier Visits Down Significantly Due to COVID-19



## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2021)

This will come as a surprise to absolutely nobody here.  









						Coronavirus hits Vermont ski resorts in the pocketbook
					

The COVID-19 pandemic has made the Green Mountains of Vermont a little less green. As of...




					www.timesunion.com
				




Some pretty big losses.


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## skimagic (Apr 9, 2021)

Here's an additional article with some Magic Mtn stats









						A brutal year for Vermont’s ski industry: Losses estimated at $100 million
					

The pandemic caused a massive decrease in day visits, especially from out-of-state skiers, dealing a huge blow to resorts and lodging services.



					vtdigger.org


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## Smellytele (Apr 9, 2021)

“Season pass holders still frequented their favorite resorts at high rates, she said, but the number of day pass visits plummeted”

could that be that at some places they are charging a fuck load more for day tickets then they used to? And also no more discounts to entice people to buy day tickets?


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## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2021)

The numbers in those articles are a bit confusing to me.  they say revenue was down 100m, out of 1.9b last year.  but they also say the average revenue was down 30%.  I'm no accountant but something doesnt compute.


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## ThatGuy (Apr 9, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> The numbers in those articles are a bit confusing to me.  they say revenue was down 100m, out of 1.9b last year.  but they also say the average revenue was down 30%.  I'm no accountant but something doesnt compute.


They’re saying average revenue for the entire industry in VT is down 30% so some places it could be down 50% or 10%. The 100m is overall loss.


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## Tonyr (Apr 9, 2021)

We stayed/skied in MT, WY, UT, ID, CO, NY, & VT this season. Aside from Pitkin County (Aspen) VT was by far the most stringent place to visit. Those numbers don't surprise me.


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## NYDB (Apr 9, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> They’re saying average revenue for the entire industry in VT is down 30% so some places it could be down 50% or 10%. The 100m is overall loss.



I think his point was 100m/1.9b does is more like 5%, not 30%.   

I think the answer is that 1.9 billion is not the total gross income of ski resorts in VT (which would be 333 million +/- if the 100m loss really is a 30% average, unless the numbers in the article are total bullshit).

Instead, the 1.9 billion number is the estimated economic activity generated by skiing in VT.  Hotels, Food, Gas, Taxes, Retail sales, etc.  The entire enchilada, not just revenue at ski areas.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> They’re saying average revenue for the entire industry in VT is down 30% so some places it could be down 50% or 10%. The 100m is overall loss.



I dont think that's it.  It said, "the ski industry" does "generate" $1.9B per year, but I'm taking that to mean that that $1.9B is what's additive to State of Vermont's GDP, not that it's $1.9B in skiing-related revenue.  I think that's the more likely explanation to resolve the oddity in the math.


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## ne_skier (Apr 9, 2021)

I'm 99% sure it's based on skiing-related revenue. If I go to Vermont for the explicit purpose of skiing and I spend $150 on a hotel room and eat a $50 dinner, that money could be considered to have been generated by the ski industry, as if it weren't for skiing, I would not have spent $200 at Vermont's businesses.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2021)

Honestly, I think the numbers should be worse than this.  We "did the right thing", so to speak, and didnt go to Vermont even once to ski, but I'm guessing many people had to have just ignored all the rules or I think the hit would have ben far worse than $100M.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> I'm 99% sure it's based on skiing-related revenue. If I go to Vermont for the explicit purpose of skiing and I spend $150 on a hotel room and eat a $50 dinner, that money could be considered to have been generated by the ski industry, as if it weren't for skiing, I would not have spent $200 at Vermont's businesses.



When I say "skiing-related revenue", I literally mean ski revenue.  Your example above would be what I meant by Vermont's GDP, and I agree that must be what they mean or IMO it makes no sense.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont think that's it.  It said, "the ski industry" does "generate" $1.9B per year, but I'm taking that to mean that that $1.9B is what's additive to State of Vermont's GDP, not that it's $1.9B in skiing-related revenue.  I think that's the more likely explanation to resolve the oddity in the math.


If 100m is 30%., then total revenue to the resorts was 300m.  That seems low, no?  I mean we’re talking about tickets/pass, f$b and lodging for a good number of resorts.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Honestly, I think the numbers should be worse than this.  We "did the right thing", so to speak, and didnt go to Vermont even once to ski, but I'm guessing many people had to have just ignored all the rules or I think the hit would have ben far worse than $100M.


I don’t think most people ”ignored all the rules”.  I think the vast majority treated the quarantine rules like most people treat speed limits while driving.  they don’t go 54 on the highway but take care not to go crazy either.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I don’t think most people ”ignored all the rules”. * I think the vast majority treated the quarantine rules like most people treat speed limits while driving.  *they don’t go 54 on the highway but take care not to go crazy either.



That literally is "ignoring" the rules then, lol.  There's no way most people skiing in Vermont this season who dont live in Vermont went through with the extremely long quarantine period.  Zero.  Did some of them?  Of course.  Most of them?  Not a chance.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2021)

Now that I think about, how could anyone possibly calculate revenue to the resorts given that the 6 biggest resorts are epix  or icon.  is It public knowledge how vail and alterra divvy up the proceeds from the pass sales to individual resorts?
im ikon and skied almost 40 days at sugarbush and twice at killington.  Who gets what out of my pass?


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## HowieT2 (Apr 9, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That literally is "ignoring" the rules then, lol.  There's no way most people skiing in Vermont this season who dont live in Vermont went through with the extremely long quarantine period.  Zero.  Did some of them?  Of course.  Most of them?  Not a chance.


That’s true, but the rule didn’t require any quarantine in vt, if u were quarantined at home and had a negative test.  many were quarantined at home anyway and skipped the test.


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## cdskier (Apr 9, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Honestly, I think the numbers should be worse than this.  We "did the right thing", so to speak, and didnt go to Vermont even once to ski, but I'm guessing many people had to have just ignored all the rules or I think the hit would have ben far worse than $100M.



Many people absolutely ignored the rules. I followed the rules by staying in VT and working remotely, but every weekend at my condo complex you'd see the same out of state cars show up only to disappear mid-week. Some people will justify it by saying "well when I went home I didn't go anywhere else" and believe they were somehow following the rules in their own way. I'm not saying I fault these people as the rules were overly restrictive, but there's no doubt many people did not follow the rules the way VT expected people to.


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## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

So..a billion is 1000 million
2 billion is 2000 million
Losing 100 million doesnt seem like a lot mathematicaly.
But this isnt math..its reality..
Entire businesses are gone..
One has to wonder..was the "cure"...better than the disease...


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## PAabe (Apr 10, 2021)

Vermont committed economic suicide.  The more popular NY and PA hills were sold out every weekend and even the less popular places reported busier than every ticket sales and good financials - the lodges even seemed fairly busy too selling food, even if a lot of people were eating outside.  The guy at my ski shop was saying how this is the best year they have had ever, they are basically sold out of everything.

Huge missed opportunity on Vermont's part.  Short season last year, restricted travel, lodging, and food this year, that must be pretty rough as the article notes.

Now PA allegedly had a travel restriction for part of the season too but a lot of people didn't even know that it existed, nobody even mentioned it really..   I know a few people on the DC forum were talking about not coming to PA but I don't think the southern PA hills could have handled more people anyway, and the poconos lots were full of Maryland, NJ, and NY plates.  But there are definitely a lot of people that avoided Vermont for alternatives.

I don't get the point of travel restrictions, if the disease is already spread around the world/country, why does it matter? And how the ski areas were singled out as being some huge covid risk when really there is zero chance of spreading disease while skiing - they should be encouraging not discouraging safe things to do - better to go skiing than go to a party.  Just seems like politicians on a power trip


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## VTKilarney (Apr 10, 2021)

Keep in mind that Vermont was a very different place when the rules were made. Vermont had extremely few COVID-19 cases compared to the rest of the country and, in particular, the Northeast.  

also, the theory was that, even if Vermont had the same number of cases as elsewhere, the mere act of traveling encourages the spread of the disease compared to staying home.


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## HowieT2 (Apr 10, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vermont committed economic suicide.  The more popular NY and PA hills were sold out every weekend and even the less popular places reported busier than every ticket sales and good financials - the lodges even seemed fairly busy too selling food, even if a lot of people were eating outside.  The guy at my ski shop was saying how this is the best year they have had ever, they are basically sold out of everything.
> 
> Huge missed opportunity on Vermont's part.  Short season last year, restricted travel, lodging, and food this year, that must be pretty rough as the article notes.
> 
> ...


At least in the mrv where I was, there have not been business closures, certainly not on the scale you are implying.  my go to ski shop reportedly had a good year revenue wise.  I was told they were busier midweek than usual, but less on the weekends.  Sugarbush was no ghost town.
I wonder what the losses were in nh compared to vt.  I’d be surprised if the ski resorts in nh and Maine didn’t have some losses this season as well.  
if the loss reported in the articles is 100m out of 1.9b, that’s not so bad considering.  It could be that the non epic/icon resorts suffered more than the pass mountains did.  If that’s the case, I’d be more concerned with the effects of the passes than the pandemic quarantine.


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## cdskier (Apr 10, 2021)

PAabe said:


> Vermont committed economic suicide.  The more popular NY and PA hills were sold out every weekend and even the less popular places reported busier than every ticket sales and good financials - the lodges even seemed fairly busy too selling food, even if a lot of people were eating outside.  The guy at my ski shop was saying how this is the best year they have had ever, they are basically sold out of everything.
> 
> Huge missed opportunity on Vermont's part.  Short season last year, restricted travel, lodging, and food this year, that must be pretty rough as the article notes.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure I understand your argument about NY mountains being sold out every weekend. That doesn't prove anything. They were operating with reduced capacity even in NY so it shouldn't be a surprise they sold out weekends. It isn't like these places were never busy in the past and suddenly were this year. And in VT many of the mountains that required reservations were regularly sold out on weekends as well.



HowieT2 said:


> At least in the mrv where I was, there have not been business closures, certainly not on the scale you are implying.  my go to ski shop reportedly had a good year revenue wise.  I was told they were busier midweek than usual, but less on the weekends.  Sugarbush was no ghost town.
> I wonder what the losses were in nh compared to vt.  I’d be surprised if the ski resorts in nh and Maine didn’t have some losses this season as well.
> if the loss reported in the articles is 100m out of 1.9b, that’s not so bad considering.  It could be that the non epic/icon resorts suffered more than the pass mountains did.  If that’s the case, I’d be more concerned with the effects of the passes than the pandemic quarantine.



I think ski shops probably did fairly well. It is the lodging and restaurants in the MRV that I'd be more concerned with. We know property owners were largely visiting, but the question is whether other people were as well. So I'm not sure how the lodging here in the MRV fared this season. I suspect their visits were down a decent amount. And certainly the restaurants took a hit. There's no doubt about that. Sure I can really only think of one that is closed (Localfolk never opened), but some of the others are hanging on by a thread and just hoping they can continue to survive until things open up more (this is based on discussions I've had with local restaurant owners here in the MRV so it isn't just conjecture on my part).


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## deadheadskier (Apr 10, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that Vermont was a very different place when the rules were made. Vermont had extremely few COVID-19 cases compared to the rest of the country and, in particular, the Northeast.
> 
> also, the theory was that, even if Vermont had the same number of cases as elsewhere, the mere act of traveling encourages the spread of the disease compared to staying home.



There's certainly a case to be made for the traveling argument in regards to disease spread.

Look at Maine.  They had many restrictions, but they weren't particularly enforced.  53k cases and 750 deaths so far.  Compare that to New Brunswick where travel restrictions were heavily enforced.  1700 cases and 32 deaths so far.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> There's certainly a case to be made for the traveling argument in regards to disease spread.
> 
> Look at Maine.  They had many restrictions, but they weren't particularly enforced.  53k cases and 750 deaths so far.  Compare that to New Brunswick where travel restrictions were heavily enforced.  1700 cases and 32 deaths so far.


Right.  And, for better or worse, look at Vermont's demographics: very skewed towards older people.  COVID is particularly bad for that demographic.  So Health Officials in Vermont had to protect that group.  Additionally, there are not very many hospitals in Vermont so that is a concern.

I get that for most of the board that Vermont is the destination weekend playground.  Most folks here live in Southern New England in the metro areas.  But people do live in VT and it is important to consider that.  Obviously I am biased with family, including my now older parents, living in Vermont.

I get it that we are all sick of COVID.  It sucks.  But people dying from largely a preventable virus is really bad.  Folks out here are giddy as hell that the Utah mask mandate ends today.  That said, almost all government buildings, the airport, and most businesses are requiring masks.  Go figure.  Folks don't want to be told what to do.  I am pretty disgusted as to how this pandemic event has shown how divided this country is and how downright selfish a lot of people are.


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## PAabe (Apr 10, 2021)

Yes ultimately what Vermont does is up to vermonters.  I was happy to follow the rules and ski NY (although I would be less happy if I had a VT pass).  Just kind of a shame they missed out on what was a very good year for ski areas in neighboring areas.

And when I meant high ticket sales in NY and PA earlier, I do mean it, not just long lift lines - places that were sold out like Blue and Gore were just as crowded if not more on the slopes as normal years. Some of the less popular places like Montage, Laurel Mountain, Blue Knob, Spring Mountain - came straight out and said this is the best business they have done in a very long time


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## icecoast1 (Apr 10, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure I understand your argument about NY mountains being sold out every weekend. That doesn't prove anything. They were operating with reduced capacity even in NY so it shouldn't be a surprise they sold out weekends. It isn't like these places were never busy in the past and suddenly were this year. And in VT many of the mountains that required reservations were regularly sold out on weekends as well.


NY capacity restrictions were more when the mountains had limited terrain, once things were wide open, they were essentially zilch.   And although it's true these places were busy in the past, they certainly didn't see a huge decrease in visits this year like Vermont did.   And some may have even done better.   I noticed a lot more people out on the hill this year that wouldn't have been out midweek in the past,  people "working" from home or kids that would normally be in school, etc.


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## ne_skier (Apr 10, 2021)

The busiest day I've witnessed at Belleayre took place this season, ~15-minute lines at Superchief and ~5 at 7 and Tomahawk. Didn't dare go down to the gondola.


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## PAabe (Apr 11, 2021)

15 minute+ lines at montage, laurel mountain of all places which are typically considered crowded if they are not ski on.  Wise choice of going to laurel that day, neighboring 7 springs was like full on Instagram style Epic liftline disaster I heard.  People at Laurel, recently back from the dead with their singular lift, kept saying they could not believe how many people were there all season - apparently that place has not seen a crowd like that in _decades._

Gore had significant lines for many lifts when I was there which is unusual midweek I think and the gondola of course was a disaster


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> *One has to wonder..was the "cure"...better than the disease...*



It wasn't.  

Because in the young cohort of < 50 years old which makes up the overwhelming preponderance of ski visits, COVID19 is likely to be nothing worse than a bad flu.

But you cant actually *SAY* that publicly if you're an elected official, or you'll get the self-righteous, _"if we save even one life"_ theorem thrown back into your face.

What *SHOULD* we have done with hindsight being 20/20 vision?  We should have vaccinated people > 70 years old almost immediately without all-encompassing COVID19 safety date based on the knowledge that the vaccine was effective, because the reality is the likelihood of an immunological or vaccine-related adverse event being more deadly than COVID19 in the elderly cohort is absurdly remote.  I'm sure there were many brilliant medical minds who understood this early on, but again, politics > saving lives.  People in the Trump Admin & the FDA were more concerned with CYA than saving as many lives as possible.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> There's certainly a case to be made for the traveling argument in regards to disease spread.
> 
> *Look at Maine. * They had many restrictions, but they weren't particularly enforced. * 53k cases and 750 deaths *so far.  *Compare that to New Brunswick where travel restrictions were heavily enforced.  1700 cases and 32 deaths *so far.



So, I looked at the tourists per year data for each of them, which took less than 30 seconds on GOOG, and Maine gets about 620% more tourists per year, so true that up to about 199 deaths for New Brunswick and granted it still looks better.  But there's so much more that goes into it that I dont know that "strictness" was N.B.'s saving grace.  For instance, I bet Maine gets 2000% more visitors per year from COVID19 hotspots like NY/NJ than New Brunswick does, etc....  Things like that matter.  It can literally take years to really digest all this date & try to make sense of it all.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> I am pretty disgusted as to how this pandemic event has shown how divided this country is and how downright selfish a lot of people are.



Amen.  Both sides of the aisle have politicized COVID19 for various reasons to the detriment of all of us, and it is truly vulgar.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

PAabe said:


> And when I meant high ticket sales in NY and PA earlier, I do mean it, not just long lift lines - *places that were sold out like Blue and Gore were just as crowded if not more on the slopes as normal years*. Some of the less popular places like Montage, Laurel Mountain, Blue Knob, Spring Mountain - came straight out and *said this is the best business they have done in a very long time*



Oh, there's not doubt.  Because the people like us who were actually responsible & decided to follow Vermont's rules in a humanitarian spirit even if we thought they were completely moronic, had no choice buy to ski the Poconos this year.


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## Domeskier (Apr 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, there's not doubt.  Because the people like us who were actually responsible & decided to follow Vermont's rules in a humanitarian spirit even if we thought they were completely moronic, had no choice buy to ski the Poconos this year.


PA's rules were pretty onerous for out of state skiers, too.  At least they let you test out of quarantining.


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## PAabe (Apr 11, 2021)

I got the impression that the PA restriction was ignored to a degree even greater than the VT one.  It was mostly just the governor trying to make it a thing.  Nobody asked and it didn't seem like anybody cared about out of state people coming to ski, especially since PA skiing is mostly day trippers.  I know it did keep at least a few people away but certainly not to the extent of VT.
I was glad that NY did not have restrictions for neighboring states.  I would have loved to see PA reciprocate on that officially.


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## Harvey (Apr 16, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I'm not sure I understand your argument about NY mountains being sold out every weekend. That doesn't prove anything. They were operating with reduced capacity even in NY so it shouldn't be a surprise they sold out weekends


Gore skier visits were up. Down on weekends due to limits, up on weekdays, for a net rise.

I'm guessing that this had something to do with Vermont's policy, redirected demand. I wouldn't be surprised if NH had a good year too.

Below average number of ski days (23), but overall a great year in NY for me. Most pow days ever (7), 18 days I'd call excellent and the rest were good.

Haven't been to VT, I'm in middle of my vax schedule, hoping to get to Big K before the snow is gone.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 18, 2021)

Harvey said:


> *Haven't been to VT, I'm in middle of my vax schedule*, hoping to get to Big K before the snow is gone.



If you got PFE or MRNA, 10 - 11 days post 1st shot you've achieved most of the immunogenic potential you're ever going to achieve (about 90% of the 95% protection), so fear not if you're already at that point.


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## abc (Apr 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you got PFE or MRNA, 10 - 11 days post 1st shot you've achieved most of the immunogenic potential you're ever going to achieve (about 90% of the 95% protection), so fear not if you're already at that point.


Except the pesky business of Vermont's "regulations".  

In terms of safety, skiing is safer than the time one spend in the vaccination center!


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## Harvey (Apr 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you got PFE or MRNA, 10 - 11 days post 1st shot you've achieved most of the immunogenic potential you're ever going to achieve (about 90% of the 95% protection), so fear not if you're already at that point.


Somebody PM'd me (a Killy passholder) and told me that if I've had covid (I have) I am within VT rules to go.


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## drjeff (Apr 20, 2021)

As the ski season winds down, not just across the East, but across the entire country, I think it's fair to say that the fears that many had that ski resorts would become COVID super spreader hot spots, just wasn't the case. And the sport in general seemed to show that outdoor activities could be safely done, with some relatively minor things like mask wearing and use of social distancing. And that's a great thing for the industry


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 20, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Somebody PM'd me (a Killy passholder) and told me that if I've had covid (I have) I am within VT rules to go.



Makes sense to me, and it's encouraging something regulatory about COVID19 makes sense for a change.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As the ski season winds down, not just across the East, but across the entire country, I think it's fair to say that the fears that many had that ski resorts would become COVID super spreader hot spots, just wasn't the case. And the sport in general seemed to show that outdoor activities could be safely done, with some relatively minor things like mask wearing and use of social distancing. And that's a great thing for the industry



completely agree.  One of the only things that has seemed to go correctly with this mess in the US.  Sure there are things that could've been done differently with ski season   Looking at you VT, but for the most part the season happened, a lot of places were very busy including places that weren't on Megapasses and that is good for the industry.


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Somebody PM'd me (a Killy passholder) and told me that if I've had covid (I have) I am within VT rules to go.



If I remember correctly, you had it back in December. Technically you're past the window then for what VT allows if that's right (or even if it was January you're just getting past the window). Here's VT's rule:

"People who have recovered from COVID-19 within the last 3 months do not need to test unless they develop new symptoms."

I have no idea what the basis for limiting it to 3 months is.


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## flakeydog (Apr 20, 2021)

I am not a trained ophthalmologist or a former wrestling coach but I believe the conventional thinking is that vaccination > having COVID.  I think "natural" immunity can vary quite a bit depending on the severity of your particular case and perhaps the variant you had.  With the vaccine you get a targeted dose designed to produce a very specific response.  It's kind of like natural snow vs snowmaking.  Some years are better than others but if we make snow we know we will be skiing into late April/early May every time.  This is a skiing forum, right?


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## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> I am not a trained ophthalmologist or a former wrestling coach but I believe the conventional thinking is that vaccination > having COVID.  I think "natural" immunity can vary quite a bit depending on the severity of your particular case and perhaps the variant you had.  With the vaccine you get a targeted dose designed to produce a very specific response.  It's kind of like natural snow vs snowmaking.  Some years are better than others but if we make snow we know we will be skiing into late April/early May every time.  This is a skiing forum, right?



That's all well and good, but if VT is going on the "science", then there are studies out there showing that people that have recovered from COVID retain natural immunity for at least 6 months. So what is the "3 month" window VT is using based on?


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## PAabe (Apr 20, 2021)

I would think having covid would be as good if not better than vaccine depending on severity - they are basically the same thing from what I understand.  Very few people have gotten it twice

Doesn't VT plan to remove all restrictions soon anyway?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As the ski season winds down, not just across the East, but across the entire country, I think it's fair to say that the fears that many had that ski resorts would become COVID super spreader hot spots, just wasn't the case. And the sport in general seemed to show that outdoor activities could be safely done, with some relatively minor things like mask wearing and use of social distancing. And that's a great thing for the industry


That is true.  Also relatively few people making a big deal about wearing masks while in line or on the lift.


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## drjeff (Apr 20, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I would think having covid would be as good if not better than vaccine depending on severity - they are basically the same thing from what I understand.  Very very few people have gotten it twice
> 
> Doesn't VT plan to remove all restrictions soon anyway?


I believe Gov Scott announced last week that the plan, if things continue to trend well with overall new cases of Covid and the vaccination of more and more people, that the target is that by July 4th, VT will be fully reopened without restrictions on businesses and travel (short of maybe some indoor mask wearing in some businesses)


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## HowieT2 (Apr 20, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> I am not a trained ophthalmologist or a former wrestling coach but I believe the conventional thinking is that vaccination > having COVID.  I think "natural" immunity can vary quite a bit depending on the severity of your particular case and perhaps the variant you had.  With the vaccine you get a targeted dose designed to produce a very specific response.  It's kind of like natural snow vs snowmaking.  Some years are better than others but if we make snow we know we will be skiing into late April/early May every time.  This is a skiing forum, right?


My understanding is the opposite.  Not saying I'm correct, but I don't think that is conventional thinking.  The vaccines produce an immune response.  They are not 100% efficacious.


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2021)

Most importantly the highway signs are going to come down


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## Boxtop Willie (Apr 20, 2021)

Wonder if I can get one of those signs to hang in my workshop?
Would make a lovely memento of 2020.


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## tumbler (Apr 20, 2021)

Is there still one at the top of the Roxbury Gap or did someone take it down?  I'd use the sign for target practice, like most of the other road signs in VT have been used for...


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## icecoast1 (Apr 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> (short of maybe some indoor mask wearing in some businesses)


and your travel papers


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## 2Planker (Apr 20, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As the ski season winds down, not just across the East, but across the entire country, I think it's fair to say that the fears that many had that ski resorts would become COVID super spreader hot spots, just wasn't the case. And the sport in general seemed to show that outdoor activities could be safely done, with some relatively minor things like mask wearing and use of social distancing. And that's a great thing for the industry


True for the most pat BUT there were certainly Hot Spots like Whistler recently, and Sun Valley last year.  
https://www.thedailybeast.com/canad...rgest-covid-19-variant-hotspot-outside-brazil

Good article about what happened in Austria last year - https://www.dw.com/en/austrias-ischgl-a-ski-resort-struggling-to-restore-its-image/a-56842089


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## ss20 (Apr 20, 2021)

Boxtop Willie said:


> Wonder if I can get one of those signs to hang in my workshop?
> Would make a lovely memento of 2020.



I brought up the idea earlier of resorts auctioning off/selling some of these covid signs.  I'd pay some $ for a memento to this bizarre 2020 ski season.


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## Harvey (Apr 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> If I remember correctly, you had it back in December. Technically you're past the window then for what VT allows if that's right (or even if it was January you're just getting past the window). Here's VT's rule:
> 
> "People who have recovered from COVID-19 within the last 3 months do not need to test unless they develop new symptoms."
> 
> I have no idea what the basis for limiting it to 3 months is.


I came out of quarantine on Jan 10, so I guess I'm excluded.  Have had one shot, second shot on May 5.  I'm guessing I've got pretty good immunity. Not sure about variants though.

If VT doesn't want me to come I won't. Hell I'm still wearing a mask riding my bike.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 20, 2021)

F em.  Go skiing it's safe and it sounds like you are being safe.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 20, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I came out of quarantine on Jan 10, so I guess I'm excluded.  Have had one shot, second shot on May 5.  I'm guessing I've got pretty good immunity. Not sure about variants though.
> 
> If VT doesn't want me to come I won't. Hell I'm still wearing a mask riding my bike.





jimmywilson69 said:


> F em.  Go skiing it's safe and it sounds like you are being safe.



I'm inclined to agree. Not like anyone is going to check anyway... While many people applauded VT's "loosening" of their restrictions, they're still odd if you really look at them. (Maybe other states are still doing some weird things too. I'm admittedly not paying that much attention to other states).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Makes sense to me, and *it's encouraging something regulatory about COVID19 makes sense for a change.*





cdskier said:


> If I remember correctly, you had it back in December. *Technically you're past the window then for what VT allows* if that's right (or even if it was January you're just getting past the window). Here's VT's rule:
> 
> *"People who have recovered from COVID-19 within the last 3 months do not need to test* unless they develop new symptoms."
> 
> I have *no idea what the basis for limiting it to 3 months is.*



(((((Sigh)))))

I spoke too soon.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> My understanding is the opposite. * Not saying I'm correct*, but I don't think that is conventional thinking.  The vaccines produce an immune response.  They are not 100% efficacious.



You're correct, he's wrong.   Natural infection produces a powerful response a la the vaccine, and probably a bit better given vaccine reactions were worse in the natural COVID19 cohort than the shot cohort.









						Antibody responses to the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine in individuals previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 - PubMed
					

In a cohort of BNT162b2 (Pfizer-BioNTech) mRNA vaccine recipients (n = 1,090), we observed that spike-specific IgG antibody levels and ACE2 antibody binding inhibition responses elicited by a single vaccine dose in individuals with prior SARS-CoV-2 infection (n = 35) were similar to those seen...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Apr 21, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> I am not a trained ophthalmologist or a former wrestling coach but I believe the conventional thinking is that vaccination > having COVID.  I think "natural" immunity can vary quite a bit depending on the severity of your particular case and perhaps the variant you had.  With the vaccine you get a targeted dose designed to produce a very specific response.  It's kind of like natural snow vs snowmaking.  Some years are better than others but if we make snow we know we will be skiing into late April/early May every time.  This is a skiing forum, right?



i just picked up the rand paul and jim jordan reference after being puzzled yesterday about ophthalmology and wrestling, and you sir are hilarious. what a couple of dingus assholes those two are.


----------



## flakeydog (Apr 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're correct, he's wrong.   Natural infection produces a powerful response a la the vaccine, and probably a bit better given vaccine reactions were worse in the natural COVID19 cohort than the shot cohort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting article though the link does not actually point to the full article and relating data set, just the abstract.  Essentially it says--> [prior infection]+[1 shot of 2 shot vaccine]=[same protection as a fully vaccinated subject without prior infection].  It would indicate that 1 shot of the vaccine is still better than none in individuals with prior infection.  What it does not address is the longevity of protection that natural immunity affords nor does it indicate the spectrum of severity of disease in those infected.



My initial point before was not that natural immunity is not effective, it is.  In fact, according to the article, it is _almost_ as effective as one shot of the vaccine.  The potential issue is its that it may not be consistent.  Not everyone infected has the same level of exposure to the virus or severity of disease, both are factors that may have an effect on protection from natural immunity.  This may explain the wide range of data points for prior infection individuals as baseline and why we see that group tighten up dramatically after the first shot and even more so after the second.

I may not be an epidemiologist but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express..... wait, scratch that.  I haven't stayed in any hotels for over a year.  I should go back to selling pillows.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2021)

The reality is right now about the longevity of antibodies, be they obtained via infection and recovery or immunization, is that for those who initially got COVID and recovered near the onset of the pandemic, most appear to be showing antibodies still at 12 months.

For those who were part of the initial vaccine trials, they appear to be showing antibodies still at 6-7 months.

Both of those are good signs.  Both of those are time frames that will likely continue to increase as the time from the start of COVID and the start of vaccinations, increase. 

The fact that public health officials aren't putting that caveat about how the current (perceived short by the public based on the reporting) duration of antibodies is 100% based on the still relatively short time this virus and its vaccines have been around, is frankly just another blunder in the messaging about this virus that does more harm than good about confidence that the public needs to have as we continue to live with this virus and its effects on society as a whole (and not just the actual physical effects that one can have if they get COVID)


----------



## Tonyr (Apr 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The reality is right now about the longevity of antibodies, be they obtained via infection and recovery or immunization, is that for those who initially got COVID and recovered near the onset of the pandemic, most appear to be showing antibodies still at 12 months.
> 
> For those who were part of the initial vaccine trials, they appear to be showing antibodies still at 6-7 months.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that info, very helpful.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> My initial point before was not that natural immunity is not effective, it is.  *In fact, according to the article, it is almost as effective as one shot of the vaccine. * The potential issue is its that it may not be consistent.  Not everyone infected has the same level of exposure to the virus or severity of disease, both are factors that may have an effect on protection from natural immunity.  This may explain the wide range of data points for prior infection individuals as baseline and why we see that group tighten up dramatically after the first shot and even more so after the second.
> 
> I may not be an epidemiologist but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express..... wait, scratch that.  I haven't stayed in any hotels for over a year.  I should go back to selling pillows.



It sure seemed to me like your comments were downplaying the natural protection from COVID19.  The reality is COVID19 infection + one shot is virtually perfectly the same as no COVID19 + two shots, and this is a good thing.

Also, I know this is ski forum, but scatterplot shotgun raw data (what you posted) isnt the best thing to look at (though it's cool) when you're trying to compare results from different patient cohorts, you need to timestamp correlate it, which the authors did in Table 1 (below), and you can see there's very little difference in receptor site inhibition between people who have COVID19 + 1 shot vaccine, and the people who never got COVID19 but got two shots.  It's just 1% better result in the folks who caught COVID19 & got 1 shot.   Again, *this similarity is a good thing. * It also means there's really no point in Harvey getting a 2nd shot, LOL


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

drjeff said:


> *The fact that public health officials aren't putting that caveat about how the current* (perceived short by the public based on the reporting)* duration of antibodies is 100% based on the still relatively short time this virus and its vaccines have been around, is frankly just another blunder in the messaging about this virus* that does more harm than good about confidence that the public needs to have as we continue to live with this virus and its effects on society as a whole (and not just the actual physical effects that one can have if they get COVID)



Your bug is my feature.

Now, if you want to talk about a real BLUNDER, the complete CYA political decision to "dog-and-pony-show remove" the JNJ vaccine from the market for just a few days, will result in some literal deaths.  That was shameful.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Your bug is my feature.
> 
> Now, if you want to talk about a real BLUNDER, the complete CYA political decision to "dog-and-pony-show remove" the JNJ vaccine from the market for just a few days, will result in some literal deaths.  That was shameful.


Especially if one looks at the data about similar blood clot events and low platelet counts, in the similar age demographic (pre menopausal women) taking oral contraceptives.....


----------



## Harvey (Apr 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It also means there's really no point in Harvey getting a 2nd shot, LOL


It gets me in to VT and potentially other places.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

Harvey said:


> It gets me in to VT and potentially other places.



Are there places that are actually checking?  I don't think I've heard of any here in NJ.

Either way, it's distressing to me that the science is completely irrelevant.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Are there places that are actually checking?  I don't think I've heard of any here in NJ.
> 
> Either way, it's distressing to me that the science is completely irrelevant.


I think Harvey is like me in this regard.

People have been saying all season that nobody is checking. That was totally irrelevant to me. I'm not going to sneak around or potentially have to lie to go skiing.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I think Harvey is like me in this regard.
> 
> People have been saying all season that nobody is checking. That was totally irrelevant to me. I'm not going to sneak around or potentially have to lie to go skiing.



Even when you're 100% vaccinated against COVID19?!

Because that's what we're now currently talking about if you're following the conversation.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Even when you're 100% vaccinated against COVID19?!?!?!?!
> 
> Because that's what we're now currently talking about if you're following the conversation.


He's going to wait until after he gets his second shot. That's what I read into his reply anyway.

It is odd to me that doing the right thing surprises and annoys so many people.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

I *TOO* have been following the rules & not "sneaking around".

I didn't go to Vermont so much as even ONCE to ski this entire year (usually would have been roughly 20 days or so) & we haven't seen family in 9 months, including recent babies. 

But come tomorrow, I will officially have an estimated 90% efficacy against COVID19 given my vaccination date, and State of Vermont can now officially kiss my ass.

*Science > Uneducated Obedience to authority*


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 21, 2021)

JimG. said:


> He's going to wait until after he gets his second shot. That's what I read into his reply anyway.
> 
> It is odd to me that doing the right thing surprises and annoys so many people.



Well I was commenting on your response to that, not his as your post was about you.  Secondly he doesnt even need a second shot given he had COVID19, but it's 100% not his fault for not knowing that & I wouldnt expect him or anyone else to know that, but it is the fault of our government who's been ******* this up royally.

Frankly, several months back when CDC learned how robust & durable the protective response to the first shot (CDC data below) is they should have changed the entire national dosing regimen to let ANYONE who wants to get the shot get it, and delayed the 2nd shot to something like 10 or 12 weeks after the first dose rather than 3 weeks to stretch our supply as far as possible rather than have many millions of people like me wait several extra months unprotected while wanting to be vaccinated.  People no doubt died because of this.  I give it 3 to 6 months before people figure this out and it's on 60 Minutes or something.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 21, 2021)

And I sometimes wonder why I spend a lot less time here. It's like the TV torture scene from "A Clockwork Orange".
Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## kingslug (Apr 22, 2021)




----------



## Harvey (Apr 22, 2021)

I'm not exactly sure what I think.  I'm not really a blind rule follower, I drive over the speed limit, j walk, etc. Basically make some of my own decisions based on what I think is common sense.

Part of me feels like if VT doesn't want me there I won't go. I wouldn't go to someone's house if they told me not to come.

For me, I feel like there is nothing more important than beating the pandemic. (It is really causing issues for my 14yo. She feels isolated and sad.)  Do I need to wear a mask?  I'm not totally sure, but it's such a minor thing.  And the other (non-vaxed, non-covid recovered) guy has no idea about my history.  I wear a mask in the store because I want others to do it.

Who knows what is right. One thing I do blame the govt for, the guidance has been inconsistent. It's no wonder everyone is confused.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 22, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I'm not exactly sure what I think.  I'm not really a blind rule follower, I drive over the speed limit, j walk, etc. Basically make some of my own decisions based on what I think is common sense.
> 
> Part of me feels like if VT doesn't want me there I won't go. I wouldn't go to someone's house if they told me not to come.
> 
> ...


It’s not that they don’t want you, the landlord (state) just wants you to take off your shoes (quarantine) before you enter the house. But then the tenant ( business owners) just lets you in anyway with your shoes on and tells you just to wipe your feet(wear a mask)


----------



## Harvey (Apr 22, 2021)

Just not practical to quarantine, maybe not possible with a kid in school.  Had a great season in NY.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> It’s not that they don’t want you, the landlord (state) just wants you to take off your shoes (quarantine) before you enter the house. But then the tenant ( business owners) just lets you in anyway with your shoes on and tells you just to wipe your feet(wear a mask)



Once you can 100% verify there's no mud on your feet, the landlord should shut up about your shoes.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 22, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Just not practical to quarantine, maybe not possible with a kid in school.  Had a great season in NY.



Well now quarantine isn't even an option to visit VT if you're unvaccinated. Somehow it was good enough for months and months, but now ONLY a negative test within 3 days prior to going to VT is good enough. So you can have a negative test on a Wednesday, go to a party on Thursday, go to VT on Friday and somehow you're considered "safer" than someone who has stayed in their own house and goes directly to VT after quarantining but simply didn't waste time/money on a test.


----------



## icecoast1 (Apr 22, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> It’s not that they don’t want you, the landlord (state) just wants you to take off your shoes (quarantine) before you enter the house. But then the tenant ( business owners) just lets you in anyway with your shoes on and tells you just to wipe your feet(wear a mask)


No, they actually dont want you.  Just ask the locals. The unenforceable quarantine rules were simply an attempt to scare people off


----------



## hub8 (Apr 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well I was commenting on your response to that, not his as your post was about you.  Secondly he doesnt even need a second shot given he had COVID19, but it's 100% not his fault for not knowing that & I wouldnt expect him or anyone else to know that, but it is the fault of our government who's been ******* this up royally.
> 
> Frankly, several months back when CDC learned how robust & durable the protective response to the first shot (CDC data below) is they should have changed the entire national dosing regimen to let ANYONE who wants to get the shot get it, and delayed the 2nd shot to something like 10 or 12 weeks after the first dose rather than 3 weeks to stretch our supply as far as possible rather than have many millions of people like me wait several extra months unprotected while wanting to be vaccinated.  People no doubt died because of this.  I give it 3 to 6 months before people figure this out and it's on 60 Minutes or something.


I think that's what the Canadians are doing. Stretching out dose 2 to months apart in an effort to get dose 1 to more people.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 22, 2021)

hub8 said:


> I think that's what the Canadians are doing. *Stretching out dose 2 to months apart in an effort to get dose 1 to more people.*



Is that right?  Smart.  No idea why we're not doing that.  It's really shocking to me, and not much shocks me.

As I said, its been known that 1 mRNA dose is highly efficacious for several months now, but you never hear Fauci, CDC, Biden, etc... say that.  It's almost as if they're afraid people wont get the 2nd dose if they know that.  Either way it's a terribly tragic decision.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 23, 2021)

I hear what you're saying BG  but the bigger concern is those who don't want to get it all.   Several of my wifes coworkers have said this.   I just don't understand it.   These people have also largely not followed any of the Covid rules throughout either...


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I hear what you're saying BG  but the bigger concern is those who don't want to get it all.   Several of my wifes coworkers have said this.   I just don't understand it.   These people have also largely not followed any of the Covid rules throughout either...


I’d suspect there’s a correlation between refusing the vaccine and levels of Fox News consumed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d suspect there’s a correlation between refusing the vaccine and levels of Fox News consumed.



It’s one of the few issues that both extremes of the political aisle agree on.  We have several “tree hugger” friends who are anti-vaxxers.

It’s also a function of age.  Many young people are less afraid of COVID-19 than the vaccine.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d suspect there’s a correlation between refusing the vaccine and levels of Fox News consumed.


I know two anti-vax lunatics. One lives north of Houston and is the definition of a fox news consuming Texan. The other is a fellow granite stater, PhD level education and radical leftist.  In my experience people that lack the ability to consider multiple viewpoints tend to make the least informed decisions.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s one of the few issues that both extremes of the political aisle agree on.  We have several “tree hugger” friends who are anti-vaxxers.
> 
> It’s also a function of age.  Many young people are less afraid of COVID-19 than the vaccine.



100% agree!  My patient pool is quite diverse across the political spectrum for sure.  And Anecdotally it sure seems like there are a very similar percentage of folks who I would label as on the political fringes of both the left and right, who aren't getting vaccinated.

The right tend to be along the lines of "the gov't can't tell me what to do...." or anti-vaxxers. And the left tend to be a combo of "I'm not going to take anything Trump was involved with" and anti vaxxers (in my experience, the anti-vaxxers tend to be slightly more right extreme than left extreme, however, at least in my neck of the woods, it's not that great a difference (say roughly a 60/40 split)

Bottom line, with how quickly COVID got politicized last year, by both sides, in a contentious election year, the desired narrative both sides were so often trying to push on their supporters, way too often, for far too many, obscured the scientific reality. And that is a sad commentary about how so many in society today are proverbial lemmings to their preferred media outlet of choice and/or preferred political ideology, as oppose to realizing that when it comes down to it, we're all really, really, really, really alike, regardless of what our sex or skin tone is


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 23, 2021)

Our country is in a sad state based on these last few posts...

I mean I've known that but this sort of sums it up

It's really a shame...


----------



## JimG. (Apr 23, 2021)

Regardless of the reason for vaccine hesitancy it is important to find ways to communicate with these folks in ways that will encourage them to get vaccinated. Verbally abusing them, calling them names, bashing their politics, etc. is not the correct way to approach that and only brings into focus how intolerant people of all backgrounds have become. Villifying people for vaccine hesitancy will solve nothing and only hardens their position.

People need to become part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.


----------



## abc (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d suspect there’s a correlation between refusing the vaccine and levels of Fox News consumed.





drjeff said:


> in my experience, the anti-vaxxers tend to be slightly more right extreme than left extreme, however, at least in my neck of the woods, it's not that great a difference (say roughly a 60/40 split)





drjeff said:


> that is a sad commentary about how so many in society today are proverbial lemmings to their preferred media outlet of choice and/or preferred political ideology



What's ironic is Trump got himself vaccinated quietly before leaving office! And that's despite he already had Covid. 

Somehow that's lost on his followers! I don't know what happens to "do as I do, not as I say"...


----------



## abc (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s also a function of age. Many young people are less afraid of COVID-19 than the vaccine.


I can't blame them. 

They're young. So much less affected by Covid, which is a scientific fact. 

The vaccine was developed in a (relative) hurry. There's no long term safety data to be had. It's hard to stomach taking something that's developed in the past 6 months to prevent something that's known to not affect the young any worse than flu. (yes, flu kills young people much the same, which is rarely). Now with the known blood clog issue, it's even more hesitant for the young to accept the risk. 

Me? I'm old. So I took the vaccine the earliest instant I was qualified. But if I had a youngster in my care and he/she ask me, I don't know what I would say. (probably just tell him the above and he has to decide for himself)


----------



## cdskier (Apr 23, 2021)

abc said:


> I can't blame them.
> 
> They're young. So much less affected by Covid, which is a scientific fact.
> 
> ...



I'm somewhat intrigued by the young being the group least likely to want it. Doesn't the younger age group tend to skew more liberal? That group being less likely to want it goes against the claims that it is only the "Fox News" watchers that don't want it. I guess I'm not truly in the "young" category anymore, but everyone I know that is between 20 and 40 wants it. The people I know personally that don't want it are actually older (50s and up). 

If young people think it is no worse than the flu, then I'd argue they are wrong. My brother and his wife both had COVID and both said they would never wish it on anyone and that it was absolutely worse than the flu. And we still have no idea what the long term health impacts are on people that recover from COVID. I think this latter point is often far too often overlooked by people that say "well most people recover anyway". If people are concerned about the "long term impacts" of a vaccine, why are they not at least equally concerned about the long term impacts of the virus itself?


----------



## drjeff (Apr 23, 2021)

abc said:


> I can't blame them.
> 
> They're young. So much less affected by Covid, which is a scientific fact.
> 
> ...



As for the J&J vaccine and the rare, blood clot issue related to low platelet counts (thrombocytopenia) in pre menopausal women, for perspective, one should look up the data on both a percentage basis and shear numbers basis of  how very similar blood clotting events in pre menopausal women, related to low platelet counts who are taking oral contraceptives happen.  Yet that doesn't get the attention that this does. Again, it's the perspective, risk comfort, and how the information is presented to the general public that has such a major effect on the publics perception of most any topic, and certainly COVID related topics.

For many in society it would probably be a good thing if they turned off the news for a month or so, and trusted the science, not the all too often partisan delivery of the news on this


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Regardless of the reason for vaccine hesitancy it is important to find ways to communicate with these folks in ways that will encourage them to get vaccinated. Verbally abusing them, calling them names, bashing their politics, etc. is not the correct way to approach that and only brings into focus how intolerant people of all backgrounds have become.



You mean that the Sean Hannity - Rachel Maddow school of communication is a bad thing for our society?  Who would have thought it?


----------



## tumbler (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> You mean that the Sean Hannity - Rachel Maddow school of communication is a bad thing for our society?  Who would have thought it?


Did they get vaccinated?


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’d suspect there’s a correlation between refusing the vaccine and levels of Fox News consumed.







__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com
				



You have a very short memory?


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

tumbler said:


> Did they get vaccinated?


I believe so. Their approaches are different, as one would imagine.









						Rachel Maddow Makes Impassioned Personal Appeal to People Hesitant About Vaccines: ‘I Felt the Fear and I Did It Anyway’
					

MSNBC's Rachel Maddow made an impassioned appeal Friday night directly addressing people who are hesitant, for any number of reasons, to get the covid-19 vaccine.




					www.mediaite.com
				












						Hannity Tells His Huge Audience It’s Fine Not to Get the Vaccine
					

The Fox News host said “nobody should be pressured” and “we should remember we believe in freedom of choice.”



					www.thedailybeast.com


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This quote from your article sums up my feelings nicely.

“Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump,” Biden said. “At this moment, the American people can’t either.”


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

And don’t forget that Kamala undermined confidence in the vaccine, even though she took it while Trump was President.









						Harris says she wouldn't trust Trump on any vaccine released before election
					

The Democratic vice presidential nominee also expressed concern that Trump has continued to contradict his own health officials.




					www.politico.com


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> This quote from your article sums up my feelings nicely.
> 
> “Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump,” Biden said. “At this moment, the American people can’t either.”



You do realize who develops and approves vaccines, don’t you?  Hint: it’s not the President


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> You do realize who develops and approves vaccines, don’t you?  Hint: it’s not the President


I work at a facility that makes the Moderna vaccine so I think I’ve got a handle on it. I just said I like the quote.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

It’s hard to take Biden seriously about masks when he engages in theatrics like this.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> This quote from your article sums up *my feelings* nicely.
> 
> “Let me be clear: I trust vaccines, I trust scientists, but I don’t trust Donald Trump,” Biden said. “At this moment, the American people can’t either.”



You are literally the person who will trust your politician rather than the science (or conversely, not trust the politician if they're to the right of Noam Chomsky)


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> I work at a facility that makes the Moderna vaccine so I think I’ve got a handle on it. I just said I like the quote.



It‘s odd that you would like a quote that was intended to undermine confidence in a vaccine.


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You are literally the person who will trust your politician rather than the science.


No I’m literally not.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I hear what you're saying BG  but the bigger concern is those who don't want to get it all.   Several of my wifes coworkers have said this.   *I just don't understand it. *



If you're young & healthy the odds of succumbing to COVID19 are incredibly small, so I get it in that context.  Though I do think it's selfish behaviour as you could (and likely will at some point) become infected & in that age cohort are increasingly likely to be an asymptomatic spreader.  Do they know this though?  Probably not, which somewhat blows up my "selfish" comment.

But we still do not have long-term clinical follow-up studies of COVID19 effects, but what we do know is not encouraging relating to lung function impairment.  That alone would be enough to "nudge" me to get it if I was say..... 25 years old.  Again, however, how many people know this?  Not many.   This is another failure of government.  Instead of wasting money on lord only knows what, they should have run 30 second educational PSAs online & via broadcasts frequented by the young (NFL football, dopey social media influencers, SNL, etc.).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It’s hard to take Biden seriously about masks when he engages in theatrics like this.
> 
> View attachment 51550



Is this picture real?


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> It‘s odd that you would like a quote that was intended to undermine confidence in a vaccine.


Honestly not how I read it. Trump can’t be trusted and scientists/vaccines can, is what I read and quoted. Could Biden’s intentions be fully trusted in the context of a heated election season? I wouldn’t argue that and wasn’t trying to.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is this picture real?



Unfortunately, yes.  It is a screen cap of the climate change summit.  Because you need to mask up at a virtual summit, apparently.

As I said earlier, how do you expect to be taken seriously when you are more worried about virtue signaling than reality?









						Biden appears to be only world leader to wear a mask at virtual climate summit
					

Leaders who could be seen without masks included Putin, Merkel, Erdogan, and EU bigwigs von der Leyen and Michel




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> Honestly not how I read it.



Biden was telling people that they should not trust a vaccine that was released under a Trump presidency.  He was suggesting that Trump somehow had the power to force approval of something that was not ready for approval.  That was an extremely reckless thing to say.


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Biden was telling people that they should not trust a vaccine that was released under a Trump presidency.  He was suggesting that Trump somehow had the power to force approval of something that was not ready for approval.  That was an extremely reckless thing to say.


I’ve no interest in arguing that, and wouldn’t completely disagree. With your permission, I’ll enjoy the quote anyway.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’ve no interest in arguing that, and wouldn’t completely disagree. With your permission, I’ll enjoy the quote anyway.



Gotta maintain that echo chamber!


----------



## fbrissette (Apr 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is that right?  Smart.  No idea why we're not doing that.  It's really shocking to me, and not much shocks me.
> 
> As I said, its been known that 1 mRNA dose is highly efficacious for several months now, but you never hear Fauci, CDC, Biden, etc... say that.  It's almost as if they're afraid people wont get the 2nd dose if they know that.  Either way it's a terribly tragic decision.


Yep that is definitely what Canada has been doing from the get go, although the original driver for this was the limited amount of doses we got, as there was still debate in January as to whether or not this was a good idea.  Now it's very clear it was a great decision.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 23, 2021)

Quebec is so short on Moderna that they are going to give Pfizer as a second dose to some people who had Moderna as their first dose.


----------



## Edd (Apr 23, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Regardless of the reason for vaccine hesitancy it is important to find ways to communicate with these folks in ways that will encourage them to get vaccinated. Verbally abusing them, calling them names, bashing their politics, etc. is not the correct way to approach that and only brings into focus how intolerant people of all backgrounds have become. Villifying people for vaccine hesitancy will solve nothing and only hardens their position.
> 
> People need to become part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.


Been thinking about your post and this is relevant to that.









						Here's What Will Actually Convince People to Get Vaccinated
					

"The thinking has been that the more you shame people the more they will obey. But this turns out to be absolutely wrong"




					time.com
				




But I’m very pessimistic about changing minds at this point. After what we’ve gone through, if you still need convincing...yikes.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 23, 2021)

Just have to wonder if the rollout was delayed for .....Say ........Politics ? Could it have been out sooner? How many people paid that price.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 23, 2021)

This thread is off the rails...  welcome to after ski season!


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> NYSkiBlog Forums
> 
> 
> Our Northeast Ski Forums cover the Adirondacks, Catskills, Tug Hill, Central NY, VT. Skiing, trip reports, weather, conditions, gear and life. All of it baby.
> ...


Come over Harvey ski forum S


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 23, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Quebec is so short on Moderna that* they are going to give Pfizer as a second dose to some people who had Moderna as their first dose.*



That's twice I'm shocked in the same thread.  We would NEVER do that in America.  I imagine it's perfectly fine, they're both mRNA vaccines codifying for the same spike protein, and there's very little artistic license with RNA.  In fact, if there is some teeny-tiny difference it ironically might even be better, but the FDA would never be like, I'm pretty sure these hornets arent the murdering type!  That's just so foreign to me after following the FDA for a long time.


----------



## abc (Apr 23, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Just have to wonder if the rollout was delayed for .....Say ........Politics ? Could it have been out sooner? How many people paid that price.


Sooner???

You mean, before they compile and analyze the safety and efficacy data?

Yeah right, some people took Hydroxychloroquine before ever established their effectiveness! So Why not vaccines?

Warp speed, right on!!!


----------



## JimG. (Apr 23, 2021)

Edd said:


> Been thinking about your post and this is relevant to that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm pessimistic because the people who should be talking about this are doctors and you never hear anything from them. A lot of doctors are retiring because being a doctor just kind of sucks now I think. Who wants to work for insurance companies? 

I don't want to be injected through a car window either, or in a pharmacy or "pop-up" site. So I waited until my medical provider started offering vaccinations. Plus they contacted me and invited me to get injected. That's how you handle this type of thing.

Oh, and calling it a "jab" is utterly retarded who wants to get punched?


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Sooner???
> 
> You mean, before they compile and analyze the safety and efficacy data?
> 
> ...


The first vaccine announcement was 11/9/20 ...... one side was still voting  .  Timing seems delayed for obvious reasons ?


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> The first vaccine announcement was 11/9/20 ...... one side was still voting  .  Timing seems delayed for obvious reasons ?


Huh?

You are off by over a month.  First vaccines were delivered on 12/14/20


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Huh?
> 
> You are off by over a month.  First vaccines were delivered on 12/14/20


"Announcement" of the first 








						Covid vaccine: First 'milestone' vaccine offers 90% protection
					

The vaccine is a "significant step" forward for getting life back to normal, but challenges remain.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

Um, they literally had been talking about these vaccines and updating the progress of what stages the trials were in since last spring.

But yes, keep on believing it was all some vast political conspiracy


----------



## icecoast1 (Apr 24, 2021)

abc said:


> Sooner???
> 
> You mean, before they compile and analyze the safety and efficacy data?
> 
> ...


Didnt the powers that be at Pfizer admit to withholding data on the effectiveness of their vaccine til after the election?


----------



## abc (Apr 24, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Didnt the powers that be at Pfizer admit to withholding data on the effectiveness of their vaccine til after the election?


“Didn’t...”? 

Where DID you learn that? FOX?


----------



## abc (Apr 24, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> The first vaccine announcement was 11/9/20 ...... one side was still voting  .


I thought election day was 11/8?


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 24, 2021)

abc said:


> I thought election day was 11/8?


Lol , It’s supposed to be election “Day” not days

12/18/20  Phizer “ We have millions of doses ready” Amazing a month earlier silence? 
Ok


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

You seriously believe this stuff Silicone?



Wow


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You seriously believe this stuff Silicone?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow


It’s quite suspicious on the surface. I don’t trust 
anyone in or connected to our government Fauci admitted lying about masks.
How long does it take to produce a million doses?


----------



## Harvey (Apr 24, 2021)

What was the motivation?

I would think that there is a window to make huge bucks for vaccine makers to make a lot of money, and the sooner you are out there, the more you would make.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> It’s quite suspicious on the surface. I don’t trust
> anyone in or connected to our government Fauci admitted lying about masks.
> How long does it take to produce a million doses?



Pfizer, Moderna, JnJ and AZ are not the government.  They are all publicly traded companies that sell multiple products.  It's laughable to suggest that any of them would make a political gamble that if caught would sully their reputation and likely hammer their stock prices. 

Pfizer is increasing capacity continuously with a goal of 2.5b doses by end of the year.  That's 6.85 million doses per day


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pfizer, Moderna, JnJ and AZ are not the government.  They are all publicly traded companies that sell multiple products.  It's laughable to suggest that any of them would make a political gamble that if caught would sully their reputation and likely hammer their stock prices.
> 
> Pfizer is increasing capacity continuously with a goal of 2.5b doses by end of the year.  That's 6.85 million doses per day


Those companies spend a ton on lobbyists, I wasn’t suggesting insider trading but simply withholding information . The SEC is a joke unless you’re Martha Stewart or don’t have the right connections. 
A ton of Washington insiders are making money in the electric vehicle area right now. 

It takes a ton  of effort and supply chain for a vaccine rollout.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *Pfizer, Moderna, JnJ and AZ are not the government.  They are all publicly traded companies that sell multiple products.  It's laughable to suggest that any of them would make a political gamble* that if caught would sully their reputation and likely hammer their stock prices.



FYI, the decision you're talking about had nothing to do with PFE, MRNA, JNJ, or AZN.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> FYI, the decision you're talking about had nothing to do with PFE, MRNA, JNJ, or AZN.



I'm a little confused what you are inferring.  I was responding to Silicones theory that there was funny business by the drug manufacturers with a goal of influencing the outcome of an election.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Those companies spend a ton on lobbyists, I wasn’t suggesting insider trading but simply withholding information . The SEC is a joke unless you’re Martha Stewart or don’t have the right connections.
> A ton of Washington insiders are making money in the electric vehicle area right now.
> 
> It takes a ton  of effort and supply chain for a vaccine rollout.



If it is discovered that information was withheld by these companies for political reasons potentially resulting in additional deaths , they would face some of the largest class action lawsuits in human history.  It would crush them. 

You seriously need to lay off the Alex Jones consumption.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm a little confused what you are inferring.  I was responding to Silicones theory that there was funny business by the drug manufacturers with a goal of influencing the outcome of an election.



The drug manufacturers dont have that say.  

If there was funny business in delaying the results to help Biden win, it would have been a decision made by a handful of people running that specific DSMB, not the choice of pharma.  That's what the 2 of you dont understand.


----------



## Tonyr (Apr 24, 2021)

This thread has become depressing. We all have plenty of places to read about and comment on politics. I come to this site to escape from all of that crap, I really hope that we can get back to why we are all here in the first place.......


----------



## icecoast1 (Apr 24, 2021)

Harvey said:


> What was the motivation?


Preference of policies over one administration over the other.  Or to put it simply, more money in their pockets.  


Also pretty interesting to see what comes up in the google search feed when to type pfizer and lying... but yeah, these are great corporations with steller track records


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The drug manufacturers dont have that say.
> 
> If there was funny business in delaying the results to help Biden win, it would have been a decision made by a handful of people running that specific DSMB, not the choice of pharma.  That's what the 2 of you dont understand.


I understand that completely.

Silicone is the one suggesting a conspiracy between Pfizer and the government with political motives


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 24, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I understand that completely.
> 
> Silicone is the one suggesting a conspiracy between Pfizer and the government with political motives


Too much of a tangent. Let’s return to regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Dickc (Apr 24, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> 12/18/20  Phizer “ We have millions of doses ready” Amazing a month earlier silence?
> Ok


I recall that these companies were sure enough of the vaccine, that with government money flowing, they started production early so once approval was received they would have vaccine for immediate shipment.  This was based on them knowing it was needed ASAP, so they were willing to spend a few million up front to get a jump.

I am also sure they profited pretty well from it too!


----------



## abc (Apr 24, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> 12/18/20 Phizer “ We have millions of doses ready” Amazing a month earlier silence?





Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> How long does it take to produce a million doses?


If you care enough to pay attention, you would have known!

Thanks to our then president Trump, he made one of his best decision of his entire presidency. He offer money to the drug companies to PRODUCE the vaccines PRIOR to them getting approved!

So by the time the vaccines got approved in November, there's already millions of vaccines produced, waiting to be shipped!

Had the vaccine *not* been approved, they would have been thrown away as garbage. But the drug companies were not losing money, as the tax payers are paying for the production of those pre-approved vaccines.

If you want to play in a conspiracy game, you need to play it from the beginning, not pick and choose one moment in time. Or you lose the plot.


----------



## Harvey (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks to the US taxpayers too.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 25, 2021)

abc said:


> Thanks to our then president Trump, he made one of his best decision of his entire presidency. He offer money to the drug companies to PRODUCE the vaccines PRIOR to them getting approved!


A compliment LOL .....I'm getting my skis out again it's going to snow.


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2021)

Sometimes it snows in August! 

Rare as it maybe, history will confirm it's one of the most brilliant decision of any president could have made! Look around, how many country had better vaccination number?

Sadly, his own extreme selfishness prevented him from taking credit of it, as he perceive it didn't benefit him. He didn't even want his followers to know he himself took the vaccine!  

So much for conspiracy... reality is a whole lot simpler!


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 25, 2021)

Pre-purchasing doses = excellent and praise worthy planning

Having no robust distribution and administration strategy in place for those doses and achieving less than 10% of his stated goal = horrible planning.

Simple reality


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pre-purchasing doses = excellent and praise worthy planning
> 
> Having no robust distribution and administration strategy in place for those doses and achieving less than 10% of his stated goal = horrible planning.
> 
> Simple reality


It was a wild bet. And it paid out fantastically. Like it or not, mistakes causing delay in initial roll out was to be expected. There's a famous saying in the military: "few action plans survive first contact".

Don't forget, people were super skeptical about the vaccine itself, especially the safety aspect. The 1st target group, healthcare workers, were specially reluctant. Whilst the seniors were far more willing. So the initial delay was followed by huge demand of seniors (and even non-seniors) clamoring to suck up every single dose of vaccine produced! 

Moreover, without those millions pre-produced vaccines to expose the shortcoming of the distribution and administration strategy, we would have been even further behind on the overall vaccination process of the full population. 

There's plenty of mistake to spread the blame around. But amidst all the gloom, there were a few bright spots. Vaccine production was one of them. We all know we need to learn from our mistakes. But we should also learn from our success too.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 25, 2021)

I acknowledged the bright spot by agreeing with you on the buying gamble

But one guy set a goal of 20M shots in arms by the end of 2020 and achieved less than 2M

The next guy said 100M shots in 100 days and achieved 200M

That's the reality

And I think your healthcare worker reluctance is overstated.  I probably visit 60 different hospitals a month for work meeting with C Suite personnel.  The topic of vaccines pretty much always comes up.  One of my customers actually offered me mine because I spend so much time in their ORs.  Sped up my timeline by two months vs waiting for my state to grant me permission. Pretty much every CNO, Anesthesia Chief etc I have spoken with has stated the take rate from patient care personnel was near 100%.  And accomplished by the end of February.  It's one thing for folks removed from the day to day care of Covid patients to be skeptical of a fast released vaccine, but for the many I work with who had been seeing many of their patients die from it daily?  Their sleeves were rolled up right away


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty much every CNO, Anesthesia Chief etc I have spoken with has stated the take rate from patient care personnel was near 100%.


That's *not* what I heard from doctors physical therapists  I visited. Several (therapist) asked ME about it upon learning I've already gotten mine.

All said about 1/3 of the healthcare worker failed to get their jab, even though they can get one any moment they decided to do so.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 25, 2021)

YMMV

All I can report on is the critical care spaces I work in.  Folks well exposed to how awful Covid has been.  In those areas the take rate is extremely high in my experience and almost all of those places are mandating a Covid vaccine just like they always have with the flu shot.  Pre-Covid almost all of these facilities had that policy with the flu. Either you got a flu shot or if you objected you were required to wear a mask November through April.  Same policy will now apply to Covid.


----------



## abc (Apr 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> But one guy set a goal of 20M shots in arms by the end of 2020 and achieved less than 2M
> 
> The next guy said 100M shots in 100 days and achieved 200M


I think there's a danger in taking such a short term view. 

12 years ago, Obama took over an economy on the verge of collapse. He worked his butt off to keep it from collapsing. At the end of that 8 years, we had a healthy economy with a nice healthy GDP growth. 

Another guy inherited that and the economy grow even more. And he's not shy to take credit for the "success" by implying it's all of HIS doing! 

The previous president made a bunch of random decisions. Some proved to be near genius, some disastrous. Such was the real picture, much to distaste of his supports and distractors alike.


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 25, 2021)

To be fair, the distribution mechanisms that got Biden to his goal were in place before he took office.  Biden didn’t have to change anything.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 25, 2021)

Source that all of the plans and mechanisms were in place for Biden and he didn't have to do anything?

If the distribution plans were in place and it was known that the roll out was going to be slow, then a reasonable expectation should have been set with the public. It wasn't

The fact is one guy over promised and massively under delivered on vaccine distribution.  Doing too much of that tends to get you fired in the business world or cause you to lose an election in politics. 

The other guy under promised and over delivered.  That tends to get you promoted in the business world or help you win reelection in politics


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Source that all of the plans and mechanisms were in place for Biden and he didn't have to do anything?
> 
> If the distribution plans were in place and it was known that the roll out was going to be slow, then a reasonable expectation should have been set with the public. It wasn't
> 
> ...


I agree but to much politics here now


----------



## cdskier (Apr 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Source that all of the plans and mechanisms were in place for Biden and he didn't have to do anything?
> 
> If the distribution plans were in place and it was known that the roll out was going to be slow, then a reasonable expectation should have been set with the public. It wasn't
> 
> ...



You give way too much credit/blame to the Feds for distribution. In reality, there's not a lot of involvement from the feds in distribution. McKesson was announced by the CDC back in August as handling distribution of the Moderna and JnJ vaccines in the US. This was hardly a surprise considering that McKesson already had an active contract with the CDC for a number of years that included a clause for pandemic distribution (they previously partnered with the CDC as well for H1N1 which was long before Trump came into the picture). Distribution of the Pfizer vaccine in the US is handled directly by Pfizer. The notion that Biden could have come in and told either McKesson or Pfizer how to more efficiently run vaccine distribution is unrealistic. The role of the federal government was to determine allocations and centralize ordering from every state (allocations are simple math and ordering was done using the CDC's existing vaccine ordering portal that was already being used by states anyway for ordering vaccines from the federal government). Other than McKesson and Pfizer having to scale up their own distribution capabilities, there wasn't exactly anything "new" created here.

The numbers of vaccinations in the US have little to do with distribution and far more to do simply with production and availability of the vaccines. I firmly believe that we'd be in the same spot with vaccinations no matter who was president at the end of 2020 or now.

As an example, it would have been hard for any president to meet a stated target when one of the two suppliers at the time ran into production delays and cut their worldwide production numbers for 2020 in half...








						Supply-Chain Obstacles Led to Last Month’s Cut to Pfizer’s Covid-19 Vaccine-Rollout Target
					

Pfizer and partner BioNTech had hoped to roll out 100 million vaccines world-wide by the end of this year, a plan that was reduced to 50 million last month, highlighting the challenges drug makers face in rapidly building supply chains to meet the high demand.




					www.wsj.com


----------



## abc (Apr 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> The numbers of vaccinations in the US have little to do with distribution and far more to do simply with production and availability of the vaccines. I firmly believe that we'd be in the same spot with vaccinations no matter who was president at the end of 2020 or now.


I'm not half as confident as you are on the last point.

At the end of December, it was pointed out only 10-20% of the vaccines already delivered to the various destination actually end up in people's arms! That however, changed significantly by end of February. It didn't "just happened" by itself.

There were various logistic issues pertaining to both the production and distribution (something as boring as containers for example) that were addressed in the background. 

To say there's little the fed can do is equally naïve as attributing all the credit/blame to the president.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 26, 2021)

I agree with Scotty.


----------



## thebigo (Apr 26, 2021)

People always try to compare presidents. The definition of the word compare requires a sample size of two or greater, there is only one president. There are however 50 governors, sununu has consistently lead the country when it comes to getting shots into arms.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The next guy said 100M shots in 100 days and achieved 200M
> 
> That's the reality



The reality is it's absurd to give the Biden Administration virtually any credit for vaccine success.   Good grief.  Yeah, like they parachute in & January 22nd get to work after the inauguration parties are over, and "MAGIC!!!".  Take a look at the slope of the doses/day curve & anyone who didnt fail pre-Algebra can figure out that narrative is silly.

And FWIW, the 100M shots thing was an intentionally low number which everyone working at any significant level of pharma 100% knew would be greatly exceeded.  That's called politics. You got played.


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The reality is it's absurd to give the Biden Administration virtually any credit for vaccine success.   Good grief.  Yeah, like they parachute in & January 22nd get to work after the inauguration parties of over, and "MAGIC!!!".  Take a look at the slope of the doses/day curve & anyone who didnt fail pre-Algebra can figure out that narrative is silly.
> 
> And FWIW, the 100M shots thing was an intentionally low number which everyone working in pharma 100% knew would be greatly exceeded.  You got played.


To much politics please stop


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2021)

thebigo said:


> People always try to compare presidents. The definition of the word compare requires a sample size of two or greater, there is only one president. There are however 50 governors, sununu has consistently lead the country when it comes to getting shots into arms.



This is a much better point as it's one thing to receive allocation, and another to do something with it.  We can definitely look at various states & see some handled their supply much better than others.  Generally speaking, the states with the most restrictions did the worst.  Take a look at California, for instance, they literally had thousands of doses sitting on shelves while younger people wanted to be vaccinated.  A complete failure of leadership.

The good thing about this (if there is such a thing) is that it will be studied & we will learn from these successes & failures for the future.


----------



## Domeskier (Apr 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And FWIW, the 100M shots thing was an intentionally low number which everyone working at any significant level of pharma 100% knew would be greatly exceeded.  You got played.


I remember hearing back in January that they just needed to maintain the same vaccination rate as the prior administration to hit 100MM in 100 days and realizing I wasn't cynical enough to succeed in modern politics.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 27, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> *I remember hearing back in January that they just needed to maintain the same vaccination rate as the prior administration to hit 100MM in 100 days* *and realizing I wasn't cynical enough to succeed in modern politics.*



Yeah, you can see in the CDC data I posted the slope barely changes at all from Trump to Biden. 

If not for the slight dip for about a week in February you could lay a ruler on that chart the trend line's so stable!


----------



## cdskier (Apr 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, you can see in the CDC data I posted the slope barely changes at all from Trump to Biden.
> 
> If not for the slight dip for about a week in February you could lay a ruler on that chart the trend line's so stable!



If I recall correctly...that slight dip in February coincides with a major winter storm in parts of the mid-west that impacted the shipping of Vaccines for several days.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The reality is it's absurd to give the Biden Administration virtually any credit for vaccine success.   Good grief.  Yeah, like they parachute in & January 22nd get to work after the inauguration parties are over, and "MAGIC!!!".  Take a look at the slope of the doses/day curve & anyone who didnt fail pre-Algebra can figure out that narrative is silly.
> 
> And FWIW, the 100M shots thing was an intentionally low number which everyone working at any significant level of pharma 100% knew would be greatly exceeded.  That's called politics. You got played.



I disagree

My wife got her first shot today.  It was handled by the national guard.  Such mass vaccination sites run by the guard didn't exist around here in December and early January.  Now they're all over.  

Could also have occurred without a change in leadership. Maybe you're right. I guess we will never know.  The trajectory trend of the prior leadership in your graph is a pretty small sample size.

But the larger point is it is almost always better to under promise and over deliver.  I know in my business if I promise $2M in sales and I fail to even crack $200k, I'd get fired.


----------



## cdskier (Apr 27, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I disagree
> 
> My wife got her first shot today.  It was handled by the national guard.  Such mass vaccination sites run by the guard didn't exist around here in December and early January.  Now they're all over.
> 
> ...



The National Guard was helping setup and run vaccination sites before the change in leadership.

Here's just one article about the National Guard helping back in late December in NH (which I believe is the state you live in IIRC)








						New Hampshire Guardsmen activated at 13 vaccination sites
					

EXETER, N.H. – Thirteen vaccination sites officially opened for New Hampshire first responders and high-risk ambulatory care providers Dec. 29.Teams of New Hampshire Guardsmen were assigned to each



					www.nationalguard.mil
				




I could provide dozens of examples of articles from late December and early January about the National Guard doing the same thing in many other states...


----------



## Harvey (Apr 27, 2021)

Presidents get too much credit and blame for a lot of things.  The economy comes to mind.

I'd also agree that taking what politicians say at face value is pretty foolish.  If America could learn that lesson, we'd be a lot better off, especially right now.


----------



## abc (Apr 28, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Presidents get too much credit and blame for a lot of things.


But that appears to be what people “want” to see. (or what the political propaganda machine want to force fed us)

Or rather, that’s who people want to blame.

Take the new mask (or rather, no mask) guideline. Why was the president doing the announcements when all he did was repeat what the CDC’s new recommendation? Ok, he wants the limelight. But if people don’t watch it, maybe he wouldn’t waste time on it!


----------



## Harvey (Apr 28, 2021)

Politicians do politics.  If we didn't respond to it, it wouldn't happen.

I have actually revised my view on this somewhat. The last 5 years have shown that at times (emergencies) presidents do have more an impact.  When leadership is needed.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 28, 2021)

The entire vaccination roll out in my head at least is much like a ski season. Early on, there's little supply and lots of demand. Then both supply and demand build in the 1st third of the season. Supply and demand seem to equalize in mid season, and then as the season goes on, supply out paces demand (we're somewhere in the mid season heading towards late season vaccination wise right now it seems).

That's going to happen regardless of who was in the Whitehouse.


----------



## Harvey (Apr 28, 2021)

Good analogy IMO.


----------



## Edd (Apr 28, 2021)

This is probably the way forward.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387350455496347655


----------



## machski (Apr 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I disagree
> 
> My wife got her first shot today.  It was handled by the national guard.  Such mass vaccination sites run by the guard didn't exist around here in December and early January.  Now they're all over.
> 
> ...


Not for nothing, but deploying the guard for this has nothing to do with the Feds and everything to do with the State itself.  Remember, while the Guards are tied to the full US Military, their primary CIC is the state Governor unless activated by the full federal branch.


----------



## 1dog (Apr 29, 2021)

abc said:


> But that appears to be what people “want” to see. (or what the political propaganda machine want to force fed us)
> 
> Or rather, that’s who people want to blame.
> 
> Take the new mask (or rather, no mask) guideline. Why was the president doing the announcements when all he did was repeat what the CDC’s new recommendation? Ok, he wants the limelight. But if people don’t watch it, maybe he wouldn’t waste time on it!


Mask guidelines - ever-changing, never not-shaming.






full piece  https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2021/04/the-latest-foolishness-from-cdc.php


----------



## 1dog (Apr 29, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The reality is it's absurd to give the Biden Administration virtually any credit for vaccine success.   Good grief.  Yeah, like they parachute in & January 22nd get to work after the inauguration parties are over, and "MAGIC!!!".  Take a look at the slope of the doses/day curve & anyone who didnt fail pre-Algebra can figure out that narrative is silly.
> 
> And FWIW, the 100M shots thing was an intentionally low number which everyone working at any significant level of pharma 100% knew would be greatly exceeded.  That's called politics. You got played.


Recall '09-'16 blaming W for everything wrong, Trump did similar, now, Xiden the same.  A few may be true, never all. 

It's really ( choose Door #1, 2, or 3) the electorate not paying attention, their lack of knowledge on how a Constitutional Republic operates , or media playing to its viewers #1 and #2. ( double entendre not intended - but may be appropriate)


----------



## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2021)

1dog said:


> Mask guidelines - ever-changing, never not-shaming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Restaurant mask wearing just to get in once seated no one wears a mask,  Heck we went to a rural restaurant in Illinois and we were amazed at people walking right in with no mask and there was no shaming.  We have attended 50 percent capacity indoor concerts and masks were required if walking around otherwise not.  People were even dancing without them,  This was last summer.  Then we went to our church every family distanced by at least 12 ft 25% capacity and everyone was required to wear the face masks. I felt in was in some kind of 80's MTV music video.

In any case, not sure that chart represent what people are actually doing.


----------



## ScottySkis (Apr 29, 2021)

1dog said:


> Recall '09-'16 blaming W for everything wrong, Trump did similar, now, Xiden the same.  A few may be true, never all.
> 
> It's really ( choose Door #1, 2, or 3) the electorate not paying attention, their lack of knowledge on how a Constitutional Republic operates , or media playing to its viewers #1 and #2. ( double entendre not intended - but may be appropriate)


Please stop with political bullshit


----------



## JimG. (Apr 29, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Please stop with political bullshit


This.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 29, 2021)

Edd said:


> This is probably the way forward.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387350455496347655


Pitiful!


----------



## VTKilarney (Apr 29, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Pitiful!



So “political bullshit” is only okay when you are typing it?


----------



## JimG. (Apr 29, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> So “political bullshit” is only okay when you are typing it?


Sorry, I think paying people to get vaccinated is pitiful.

Let's just call everything political and then we can all just stop bullshitting about it.


----------



## Harvey (Apr 29, 2021)

Any tax break is essentially the same thing. The govt pays you to buy a house. Donate to charity. Have kids!  What else?

Generally it's justified by saying these activities are good for society.


----------



## JimG. (Apr 29, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Any tax break is essentially the same thing. The govt pays you to buy a house. Donate to charity. Have kids!  What else?
> 
> Generally it's justified by saying these activities are good for society.


I won't disagree.

It's still pitiful. If you can't browbeat or bully you try bribing. 

I wonder if people hold out for additional cash?


----------



## drjeff (Apr 30, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Any tax break is essentially the same thing. The govt pays you to buy a house. Donate to charity. Have kids!  What else?
> 
> Generally it's justified by saying these activities are good for society.


Technically a tax break isn't the gov't actually paying anyone anything, a tax break is actually the government letting you keep more, of what already yours, not theirs, in the first place


----------



## Harvey (Apr 30, 2021)

And technically giving you a savings bond is like giving you an iou.  But it's still ultimately a "bribe" as described by Jim right?  AKA a financial incentive. We've now spent at $4T on covid if you only count what was written down in the check book. It's probably double that if you count lost tax revenue lost etc. If we don't get to herd immunity it's all wasted.

I don't know if Jim is frustrated with the people who need to be bribed or the Rs who bribed them (sorry Scotty), but I want it over. IF (big if) this gets it done, sigh, do it.


----------



## drjeff (Apr 30, 2021)

Harvey said:


> And technically giving you a savings bond is like giving you an iou.  But it's still ultimately a "bribe" as described by Jim right?  AKA a financial incentive. We've now spent at $4T on covid if you only count what was written down in the check book. It's probably double that if you count lost tax revenue lost etc. If we don't get to herd immunity it's all wasted.
> 
> I don't know if Jim is frustrated with the people who need to be bribed or the Rs who bribed them (sorry Scotty), but I want it over. IF (big if) this gets it done, sigh, do it.



Agree.

We're at the point now, or quite close to it, where the reality is that there will be a distinct difference in the Public Health Utopian view of society having 100% utilization of the vaccine, regardless of if there is 100% access to it.

And the reality is that unless we suddenly become some sort of military dictatorship society where the people don't have a say in what their leaders tell them they have to do, that there will never be 100% utilization of the vaccines, however those in leadership positions will spend an awful lot of $$ and time trying to "convince" those who for whatever relevant or conspiracy theory based unfounded reasons don't want to get the vaccine.

If those who want to get vaccinated do, and many have now, and are continuing to, then regardless of what various public health officials think/want they reality that they need to accept that some will choose to accept their own personal risk if they don't get vaccinated, and they (the individual, are fine with that)


----------



## zyk (Apr 30, 2021)

ScottySkis said:


> Please stop with political bullshit


Scotty maybe we need some fun end of season threads...  I'm new here but maybe things like who rode the upper giant killer poma at Pico and did you ever fall off...


----------



## abc (Apr 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Agree.
> 
> We're at the point now, or quite close to it, where the reality is that there will be a distinct difference in the Public Health Utopian view of society having 100% utilization of the vaccine, regardless of if there is 100% access to it.
> 
> ...


I distinctly remember the same argument while seat belt law was imposed.


----------



## Smellytele (Apr 30, 2021)

abc said:


> I distinctly remember the same argument while seat belt law was imposed.


Still no seat belt law in NH for adults. Wonder what the numbers show for fatalities.


----------



## Edd (Apr 30, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Still no seat belt law in NH for adults. Wonder what the numbers show for fatalities.


Difficult to not wear one these days with the maddening chimes.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 30, 2021)

zyk said:


> Scotty maybe we need some fun end of season threads...



Ignore him...90% of his posts are either a sob story of how AZ isn't what it used to be, crying about lack of moderation, or fruitlessly trying to get people back on topic.  He also takes the time to go back and dislike most of ABC's posts which is pretty crappy imo.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> Difficult to not wear one these days with the maddening chimes.



I got a new-to-me used car in the fall.  Apparently the previous owner either took it to the dealer and/or plugged in a computer to disable the chimes themselves!  I love it!  It'll chime for 30 seconds then no more, just the light.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2021)

zyk said:


> Scotty maybe we need some fun end of season threads...  I'm new here but maybe things like who rode the upper giant killer poma at Pico and did you ever fall off...


Yes and yes!


----------



## Zand (Apr 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> Difficult to not wear one these days with the maddening chimes.


I always wear mine but one time I was driving from Wal-Mart to the 99 in Littleton and didn't put it on and the chime started going off. I yelled "Shut up I'm in New Hampshire!" but it didn't listen to me.


----------



## abc (Apr 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I got a new-to-me used car in the fall.  Apparently the previous owner either took it to the dealer and/or plugged in a computer to disable the chimes themselves!  I love it!  It'll chime for 30 seconds then no more, just the light.


My pretty new & unaltered car of only 5 years is set up that way from the factory. 

(1 minute instead of 30 seconds)


----------



## JimG. (Apr 30, 2021)

Harvey said:


> I don't know if Jim is frustrated with the people who need to be bribed or the Rs who bribed them (sorry Scotty), but I want it over. IF (big if) this gets it done, sigh, do it.


This. Exactly.


----------



## 1dog (Apr 30, 2021)

Edd said:


> Difficult to not wear one these days with the maddening chimes.


Ain't it Iive free or die?


----------



## foofy (Apr 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> He also takes the time to go back and dislike most of ABC's posts which is pretty crappy imo.


I noticed this too.  Agree 100%.


----------



## Not Sure (Apr 30, 2021)

Air bags have helped reduce the need for seat belts . You can certainly walk away from what could have been fatal with no belts or bags years ago. I  was almost in a head on collision early 80’s . Snow piles on the side of the road melted during the day and ran across a gradual banked turn . Fortunately traffic was only going 35. A line of oncoming cars were not braking on the ice , I spotted brake light glare from the last car. &&$@$$$!!! I know what’s coming, stomp on the brakes before reaching the ice . Guy in front had no chance, oncoming car slides into our lane. I watched him and his son put their heads through the windshield, bloody mess, Dad was conscious but his son was out. They recovered but I’ll bet they wore belts after that.


----------



## kingslug (May 1, 2021)

Not wearing a belt in something going 70 mph or better..crazy. And I don't think accelerating towards an airbag accelerating towards you is a good thing. Airbags are pretty violent critters..They hit pretty hard.


----------



## thebigo (May 1, 2021)

Back to the original topic. Liftblog, not coincidentally, reports the following:


Visits to New York’s three state-owned ski areas were up 14 percent to 672,000 with revenue up 10 percent and expenses down 8 percent.


----------



## JimG. (May 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Back to the original topic. Liftblog, not coincidentally, reports the following:
> 
> 
> Visits to New York’s three state-owned ski areas were up 14 percent to 672,000 with revenue up 10 percent and expenses down 8 percent.


VT loss is NY gain.

Hopefully that 14% goes back to VT next season. I'm hoping to buy a Killington midweek pass myself.


----------



## PAabe (May 1, 2021)

I would expect most east coast numbers to be up a similar amount,  outside of Vermont

Actually, I would not be surprised if the Pennsylvania visits were up even higher than 14%, but that data is not publicly available I dont think

I heard some of the people from the South that ski VA, WV, NC, saying that those areas were absolutely crazy busy this year too.  Apparently Floridians that drive there to ski are not too popular with the regular crowd haha


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 1, 2021)

JimG. said:


> VT loss is NY gain.  *Hopefully that 14% goes back to VT next season. *



Likely not the full 14%.  

Never let your customers explore "the other", but some portion will choose "the other" going forward.


----------



## Killingtime (May 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Back to the original topic. Liftblog, not coincidentally, reports the following:
> 
> 
> Visits to New York’s three state-owned ski areas were up 14 percent to 672,000 with revenue up 10 percent and expenses down 8 percent.


No surprise there. I picked up a NYSki3 pass for the first time ever this year. I imagine quite a few other people did too. Glad I did because Whiteface was my favorite trip this year with Gore a very close second.


----------



## thebigo (May 1, 2021)

Killingtime said:


> No surprise there. I picked up a NYSki3 pass for the first time ever this year. I imagine quite a few other people did too. Glad I did because Whiteface was my favorite trip this year with Gore a very close second.


What is your guess on the 8% expense reduction? Was there less staff?


----------



## abc (May 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What is your guess on the 8% expense reduction? Was there less staff?


No cooks, no cashiers in the cafeteria? Yes, less staff.


----------



## JimG. (May 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Likely not the full 14%.
> 
> Never let your customers explore "the other", but some portion will choose "the other" going forward.


I could do a repeat of NY only and not be unhappy.


----------



## JimG. (May 1, 2021)

thebigo said:


> What is your guess on the 8% expense reduction? Was there less staff?


Certainly fewer guest services employees. Ticket sales were all online and there were automated kiosks for ticket pick up. 

Fewer patrollers too. Also fewer snowmakers it seemed. And I recall the day the Rumor opened there were patrollers moving snowmaking equipment.


----------



## cdskier (May 3, 2021)

Edd said:


> This is probably the way forward.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387350455496347655


Here's NJ's new plan:








						12 N.J. breweries offer free beer to those who get COVID vaccine shots this month
					

Anybody 21 and older who gets their first shot in the month of May is able to take their vaccination card to a participating brewery for a free beer as part of the “shot and beer” program.




					www.nj.com
				




FWIW, I got my first Pfizer shot yesterday morning. Arm is a little sore, but less so than after the Tdap booster I had in the fall during my regular yearly checkup at the doctors. I did come pretty close to passing out though about 5 minutes after the shot (or maybe I even did pass out for a minute or so). Only other time I remember that happening after a shot was when I was a kid and got a shot of I think a steroid when I had pneumonia.


----------



## 2Planker (May 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Here's NJ's new plan:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup - and there are already stories of people signing up for 2,3 Vacc's......


----------



## kingslug (May 4, 2021)

Free beer..well hey...sign me up.....


----------



## VTKilarney (May 5, 2021)

This is a great article on how COVID has been politicized:








						The Liberals Who Can’t Quit Lockdown
					

Progressive communities have been home to some of the fiercest battles over COVID-19 policies, and some liberal policy makers have left scientific evidence behind.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## Harvey (May 5, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> This is a great article on one way COVID has been politicized:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


fify


----------



## abc (May 5, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> This is a great article on how COVID has been politicized:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And a good example of _who_ is politicizing _this_ board

But hey, this is a politic forum with only occasional skiing talks anyway. Take away the politics, this website may very well die (or some of its participants may  )


----------



## VTKilarney (May 5, 2021)

It's sad when people can't acknowledge mistakes that are being made.  The desire to live in an echo chamber must be very strong.


----------



## Brewbeer (May 6, 2021)

Both sides.


----------



## abc (May 6, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> The desire to live in an echo chamber must be very strong.


It's human nature.


----------



## drjeff (May 6, 2021)

I think the lift ride I had in March where I shared a quad chair with a guy who looked in his late 50's and based on his accent I'm guessing was from the NYC area, where in the few minutes we talked shared that he was almost at his 1yr Covid diagnosis anniversary, that he got really sick (to the point where the Docs told his family multiple evenings that he probably wouldn't be alive in the morning) but fortunately recovered.

He said one of the worst things in his mind about COVID was how BOTH parties politicized it for their own benefit at the harm of the public. Very poignant words on that chairlift ride


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 13, 2021)

*BREAKING NEWS: 

THE CDC IS GOING TO LISTEN TO SCIENCE*


----------



## abc (May 13, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> *BREAKING NEWS:
> 
> THE CDC IS GOING TO LISTEN TO SCIENCE*


Perhaps for the first time since the start of the pandemic, the CDC can actually speak according to science instead of speaking under the influence by politics?


----------



## icecoast1 (May 13, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> *BREAKING NEWS:
> 
> THE CDC IS GOING TO LISTEN TO SCIENCE*


Dont celebrate too soon, they'll probably flip flop in a day or two


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 13, 2021)

abc said:


> Perhaps for the first time since the start of the pandemic, the CDC can actually speak according to science instead of speaking under the influence by politics?


Lol, Bullshit.  It's because they are now not only being called out by politicians, but also by us citizens.  They hated admitting they were overestimating the outdoor transmissions.  It has been shown to be anywhere from 1% all the way down to .1%  Telling vaccinated people they still had to wear a mask was not helping them in their quest to get everyone vaccinated, many people were asking what's the point.  Now they want more people vaccinated so they are changing their tune.  A lot of this has been political on both sides.


----------



## abc (May 13, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> being called out by politicians, but also by us citizens.


"Us citizens"? You mean those Monday morning quarterbacks?  

The same "citizen" who insist back in March of 2020 that the virus never kill anyone young and without underlying medical condition?


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 14, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> A lot of this has been political on both sides.



I heard something brilliant the other day (paraphrasing):

Half the country refused to wear a mask at the start of a pandemic, and half the country refuses to take it off at the end.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 14, 2021)

Cuomo says that he is keeping the state mandate in place because he is respecting the science.

They both can’t be right.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 14, 2021)




----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I heard something brilliant the other day (paraphrasing):
> 
> Half the country refused to wear a mask at the start of a pandemic, and half the country refuses to take it off at the end.


Has the pandemic "ended"?

I know the ski season has "ended"!


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 14, 2021)

The rules are so arbitrary from state to state!  Some states are wide open others are pseudo wide open as in outdoors wide open and indoor masking then there are city level rules of mask mandates wearing outside.  The mask mandate has been lifted for outdoors in MA yet so many people that I see walking outside and many alone are still wearing masks.  I think there is a instilled fear that will have people wearing masks for a long time.  And they are not doing it to protect others but think it will protect them.


----------



## thebigo (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Has the pandemic "ended"?
> 
> I know the ski season has "ended"!


Yes, the pandemic has ended. No the ski season has not ended.


----------



## abc (May 14, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Yes, the pandemic has ended. No the ski season has not ended.


Good luck with both then


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 14, 2021)

I'm just curious why and who changed from "Flatten the curve" and keep hospitals from overflowing to where we are at now?


----------



## Smellytele (May 14, 2021)

You are all fucked up. Let's just argue argue argue. Blah Blah Blah. As I said if you haven't had a vaccine shot by now fuck you, you don't want one.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> You are all fucked up. Let's just argue argue argue. Blah Blah Blah. As I said if you haven't had a vaccine shot by now fuck you, you don't want one.



Have you been drinking?


----------



## Smellytele (May 14, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Have you been drinking?


No just sick of people bitching and whining about people wearing masks or not.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 14, 2021)

abc said:


> Has the pandemic "ended"?



Yes.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> No just sick of people bitching and whining about people wearing masks or not.



Then don’t read it.


----------



## icecoast1 (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> I'm just curious why and who changed from "Flatten the curve" and keep hospitals from overflowing to where we are at now?


People are much more willing to give up their freedoms if you implement things slowly over time rather than coming right out and going with the nuclear option right away


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes.


Famous last word. 

Probably age as well as the "it doesn't affect the young and healthy" from last March?


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Famous last word.
> 
> Probably age as well as the "it doesn't affect the young and healthy" from last March?


If you go by the numbers which I'm sure you won't, it doesn't affect the young and healthy.  I can post 100 studies showing this, yes they catch it but 99.94% don't have any serious adverse affects.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> People are much more willing to give up their freedoms if you implement things slowly over time rather than coming right out and going with the nuclear option right away


Yes.  They also want to ignore states like Florida and Texas whom are doing just as good or better than states with all kinds of mandates.  I shake my head at how obediently these people will follow our corrupt government.


----------



## Domeskier (May 15, 2021)

It love how the anti-mask/anti-vax pawns wrap their knee-jerk selfish, ignorance and paranoia in the mantle free-thinking freedom fighters.  Their handlers are as cunning as they are cynical.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> It love how the anti-mask/anti-vax pawns wrap their knee-jerk selfish, ignorance and paranoia in the mantle free-thinking freedom fighters.  Their handlers are as cunning as they are cynical.


Lol, people that don't wear masks are the paranoid ones, way too funny.  You know who the paranoid ones are, the ones that have the vaccination and will still wear masks even after yesterdays admission it is very rare to catch or transmit the virus once vaccinated.  Now that is being paranoid, lol.


----------



## Smellytele (May 15, 2021)

2 types of paranoid people those who wear masks when not required after they are vaccinated and those who won't get vaccinated because they are afraid of what it may do to them.


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> 2 types of paranoid people those who wear masks when not required after they are vaccinated and those who won't get vaccinated because they are afraid of what it may do to them.


To be honest, most of the people I know that aren't getting vaccinated aren't afraid of it.  They just don't want to get the fucking vaccination, it's that simple.


----------



## Smellytele (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> To be honest, most of the people I know that aren't getting vaccinated aren't afraid of it.  They just don't want to get the fucking vaccination, it's that simple.


For no reason except they are cool.
I actually don’t care if you get it or not. 
The only issue is when it spreads to these cool unvaccinated and morphs then the morphed virus starts spreading because the vaccines don’t work on the morphed virus...

but stay cool


----------



## EastCoastScott (May 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> For no reason except they are cool.
> I actually don’t care if you get it or not.
> The only issue is when it spreads to these cool unvaccinated and morphs then the morphed virus starts spreading because the vaccines don’t work on the morphed virus...
> 
> but stay cool


I don't think that's it at all, but you are entitled to your opinion, just not pushing it on others.  If you are vaccinated stop obsessing over those that aren't.  My body my decision, right?


----------



## Edd (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> I don't think that's it at all, but you are entitled to your opinion, just not pushing it on others.  If you are vaccinated stop obsessing over those that aren't.  My body my decision, right?


If you’re referring to pregnancy, pregnant women don’t get others pregnant. COVID spreads, and the aforementioned variant concern is a thing. So, when populations of unvaccinated people hang together, variants thrive, theoretically.

So ideally, vaccinations stem the variant tide. It’s sort of a everyone-pitches-in kind of thing. So, it’s not just for you. It’s for others too.


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> yes they catch it but 99.94% don't have any serious adverse affects.


99.94% of what? Hundred of thousands? Millions? 

Right, harmless!


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 15, 2021)

abc said:


> Famous last word.
> 
> Probably age as well as the "it doesn't affect the young and healthy" from last March?



It's a word based on a mathematically accepted definition.

And frankly, COVID19 really doesnt appreciably "affect the young and healthy" in any statistically serious manner.  If you're "young and healthy" and you die from COVID19, you were horrendously unlucky.  Happens will flu too (every year).


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 15, 2021)

EastCoastScott said:


> Lol, people that don't wear masks are the paranoid ones, way too funny.  You know who the paranoid ones are, the ones that have the vaccination and will still wear masks even after yesterdays admission it is very rare to catch or transmit the virus once vaccinated.  Now that is being paranoid, lol.



I just watched the flipping 2021 Preakness Stakes where ten fully vaccinated jockeys all wore masks, while outside, while on top of horses.

That is not science, that is politics.


----------



## Not Sure (May 15, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> Have you been drinking?


Yes


BenedictGomez said:


> I just watched the flipping 2021 Preakness Stakes where ten fully vaccinated jockeys all wore masks, while outside, while on top of horses.
> 
> That is not science, that is politics.


There is not yet a Vaccine for horses ...Can't be too careful


----------



## abc (May 15, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And frankly, COVID19 really doesnt *appreciably* "affect the young and healthy" in any statistically serious manner


Oh yeah? "Not appreciably" now? Instead of "not at all", "never", based on some nobody-have-access "data" from Italy?


----------



## cdskier (May 15, 2021)

Edd said:


> If you’re referring to pregnancy, pregnant women don’t get others pregnant. COVID spreads, and the aforementioned variant concern is a thing. So, when populations of unvaccinated people hang together, variants thrive, theoretically.
> 
> So ideally, vaccinations stem the variant tide. It’s sort of a everyone-pitches-in kind of thing. So, it’s not just for you. It’s for others too.


Don't bother using logic with him. He's already point blank stated he only cares about "me, me me" and not others. The irony is that a a lot of the anti-vax, anti-mask crowd will call themselves "patriots". Yet no true "patriot" only cares about themself.


----------



## Andrew B. (May 16, 2021)

Anyone still trying to convince “the other side” (which ever side that is) that their position on Covid is/has been wrong has issues imo.

its over Johnny
Positions have been solidified and restrictive measures are ending wether we like it or not. Anything further discussions are simply an attempt to pat oneself on the back.

time to go back to the “my mountain is better than your mountain” discussions, those are much more productive.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Oh yeah? "Not appreciably" now? Instead of "not at all", "never", based on some nobody-have-access "data" from Italy?



Nobody on earth used "not at all" as a thing.  In terms of the rest of the sentence, I'd need an English translation.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (May 19, 2021)

did this asshole really join alpinezone after the ski season was over to spout anti-vax anti-mask bullshit?

get lost, asshole.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 19, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> did this asshole really join alpinezone after the ski season was over to spout anti-vax anti-mask bullshit?
> 
> get lost, asshole.


Apparently

26 posts
1 Bitcoin post and the rest all Covid.  Some life!


----------



## mbedle (May 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Don't bother using logic with him. He's already point blank stated he only cares about "me, me me" and not others. The irony is that a a lot of the anti-vax, anti-mask crowd will call themselves "patriots". Yet no true "patriot" only cares about themself.


This - 100%.


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## BenedictGomez (May 24, 2021)

To those of you who gave me a hard time for this prediction circa 1 year to 1 year 2 months ago (you know who you are).  Kindly suck it.









						Gottlieb says there's growing circumstantial evidence that Covid may have originated in a lab
					

With other coronaviruses, SARS and MERS, researchers were able to identify the animal those diseases emerged from at this point in those outbreaks.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## kingslug (May 25, 2021)

I believe it did..but no evidence for or against it has come up. I find it weird that for some its an impossibility.


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## dblskifanatic (May 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I believe it did..but no evidence for or against it has come up. I find it weird that for some its an impossibility.



the fact that 2 lab workers went to the hospital with covid symptoms in November of 2019 is a good start.  Maybe we should be looking inside that lab, if they have not gotten rid of any evidence.


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## Hawk (May 25, 2021)

Take a look inside a state run, bio-chemical research lab that is working on most likely weaponizing virus stains?  I am sure they will just invite the US right in to check out what they are doing.  I mean communist China has always been so open to scrutiny.  LOL


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 25, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Take a look inside a state run, bio-chemical research lab that is working on most likely weaponizing virus stains?  I am sure they will just invite the US right in to check out what they are doing.  I mean communist China has always been so open to scrutiny.  LOL



haha so true


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 25, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> the fact that 2 lab workers went to the hospital with covid symptoms in November of 2019 is a good start.  Maybe we should be looking inside that lab,* if they have not gotten rid of any evidence.*



You can bet that everything's gone that can be gone.  Frankly I'm surprised a handful of scientists havent "disappeared" yet, but that might be coming.  China took their public library of viruses off-line late September 2019 if you want another bit of highly suspicious circumstantial evidence.  And the road to the cave in southern China where the bats with the most similar strain to COVID19 live, has been blocked off & is under guard.  The WSJ reported that one journalist managed to make it to the cave entrance circumventing the road by bicycle & had his camera confiscated.   All very non-suspicious of course.


----------



## drjeff (May 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You can be that everything's gone that can be gone.  Frankly I'm surprised a handful of scientists havent "disappeared" yet, but that might be coming.  China took their public library of viruses off-line late September 2019 if you want another bit of highly suspicious circumstantial evidence.  And the road to the cave in southern China where the bats with the most similar strain to COVID19 live, has been blocked off & is under guard.  The WSJ reported that one journalist managed to make it to the cave entrance circumventing the road by bicycle & had his camera confiscated.   All very non-suspicious of course.



I wonder how China will (likely let) this play out, especially with the 2022 Winter Olympics coming up in less than a year with Beijing as the host city. 

Do they let the truth (or some portion of it to their desire come out if it was indeed a man made virus that escaped) out soon and deal with the repercussions on the world stage and try and host the Olympics successfully.

Or do they take the risk the somehow the truth won't get out and put their leadership in the position where the ire of so much of the world is directed at them, including the likely boycott of the Olympics that could ensue and how that would certainly tarnish their image on the World's Stage? 

Not exactly the best of options of the etiology of COVID does indeed be shown to be of lab origin.....


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## BenedictGomez (May 26, 2021)

drjeff said:


> *Do they let the truth (or some portion of it to their desire come out if it was indeed a man made virus that escaped) *out soon and deal with the repercussions on the world stage and try and host the Olympics successfully.



Not a chance.  After the outbreak, China stopped domestic flights & allowed international flights, they started procuring PPD globally which screwed other nations over, delayed alerting global healthcare authorities about the virus, denied it was p2p transmissible, etc.. so there is 0% chance China admits anything.

And given all that matters in this world is money, China will be allowed to host the Olympics no problem.  Just ask John Cena, whose Hollywood handlers today forced him to issue an apology to China for acknowledging Taiwanese statehood.  Yet another reminder that "woke Hollywood" will trade support of slavery & human rights violations for cash.


----------



## kingslug (May 26, 2021)

The fact that countries play around with germ warfare is amazing. Its not a very directed weapon. Once its out..it spreads..possibly right back to whoever sent it out. We shouldn't be playing around with these things. But..we do. I can just imagine what Russia cooks up.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 26, 2021)

Nah

Russia is OG dirty.  They just straight up poison any adversaries to the state and then gaslight and deny


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Nah
> 
> Russia is OG dirty.  They just straight up poison any adversaries to the state and then gaslight and deny



You do realize that they are monitoring this forum, right?!


----------



## kingslug (May 26, 2021)




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## jimmywilson69 (May 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> You do realize that they are monitoring this forum, right?!


Cool what do you think Putin's interest is in purchasing Jay Peak and/or Burke.


----------



## 2Planker (May 26, 2021)

Putin is crackin' up over the Political Trash Talking Covid Denying Idiots.

Keep it coming. Great reading.   Ha Ha


----------



## VTKilarney (May 27, 2021)

Those mask mandates may have been useless:








						Mask mandate and use efficacy in state-level COVID-19 containment
					

Background Containment of the COVID-19 pandemic requires evidence-based strategies to reduce transmission. Because COVID-19 can spread via respired droplets, many states have mandated mask use in public settings. Randomized control trials have not clearly demonstrated mask efficacy against...




					www.medrxiv.org


----------



## dblskifanatic (May 27, 2021)

I find it interesting - MA had an outdoor mask mandate which did not make sense to us.  We generally only masked up indoors.  We did get some looks for sure.  Now the outdoor mask mandate has been lifted and we see people wearing masks everywhere.  That must be do to lack of knowledge and they have not heard the news or they are fearful.  I do not understand it otherwise.


----------



## 2Planker (May 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I find it interesting - MA had an outdoor mask mandate which did not make sense to us.  We generally only masked up indoors.  We did get some looks for sure.  Now the outdoor mask mandate has been lifted and we see people wearing masks everywhere.  That must be do to lack of knowledge and they have not heard the news or they are fearful.  I do not understand it otherwise.


Rural MA  - NO Masks, most people
Downtown Boston - Everyone is still wearing masks


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## drjeff (May 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I find it interesting - MA had an outdoor mask mandate which did not make sense to us.  We generally only masked up indoors.  We did get some looks for sure.  Now the outdoor mask mandate has been lifted and we see people wearing masks everywhere.  That must be do to lack of knowledge and they have not heard the news or they are fearful.  I do not understand it otherwise.



The "COVID fear porn factor" in some is very high, and will take a long time for it to go away in some select folks for sure. 

One can certainly make the case that at times, the leanings of one preferred news sources were an advantage to get people to take COVID seriously, whereas now as the urgent, emergency status of the COVID pandemic shifts into a non emergency endemic situation for this country, many of those same news sources that scared the living daylights out of some, will have a tough time getting those same people to accept that it actually is OK to live a pretty normal life again.


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## boston_e (May 27, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The "COVID fear porn factor" in some is very high, and will take a long time for it to go away in some select folks for sure.
> 
> One can certainly make the case that at times, the leanings of one preferred news sources were an advantage to get people to take COVID seriously, whereas now as the urgent, emergency status of the COVID pandemic shifts into a non emergency endemic situation for this country, many of those same news sources that scared the living daylights out of some, will have a tough time getting those same people to accept that it actually is OK to live a pretty normal life again.


 I'd guess for most it is not a high fear factory anymore so much as habit, not being 100% sure on what the rules are and erring on the side of masking up, or simply forgetfulness.  I admit I've had plenty of times since the outdoor masking has lifted where I've left a store and simply forgotten that I have the mask still on.


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## Dickc (May 27, 2021)

I have an elderly housing project in my neighborhood.  I watch car after car drive out of there with the driver, the only occupant, still wearing their mask.  I'll bet they don't get that far before they remember to take it off, so habit is having some effect here.


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## icecoast1 (May 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I find it interesting - MA had an outdoor mask mandate which did not make sense to us.  We generally only masked up indoors.  We did get some looks for sure.  Now the outdoor mask mandate has been lifted and we see people wearing masks everywhere.  That must be do to lack of knowledge and they have not heard the news or they are fearful.  I do not understand it otherwise.


Shouldn't come as a shock.  The news has spent the last 12+ months needlessly scaring the hell out of people to make money


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## dblskifanatic (May 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Shouldn't come as a shock.  The news has spent the last 12+ months needlessly scaring the hell out of people to make money



True!  Media outlets all of them were psyched with all the attention they were getting - created significance for them.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I find it interesting - MA had an outdoor mask mandate which did not make sense to us.  We generally only masked up indoors.  We did get some looks for sure.  Now the outdoor mask mandate has been lifted and we see people wearing masks everywhere.  That must be do to lack of knowledge and they have not heard the news or they are fearful.  I do not understand it otherwise.



Masks have become left-wing, virtue signaling performance art. 
 It's like a very liberal person's red MAGA hat, which is why you'll notice this is only still occurring in very blue areas.


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## Andrew B. (May 28, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Masks have become left-wing, virtue signaling performance art.
> It's like a very liberal person's red MAGA hat, which is why you'll notice this is only still occurring in very blue areas.


“I feel the need to continue wearing my mask outside even though I’m fully vaccinated because the inconvenience of having to wear a mask is more than worth it to have people not think I’m a conservative,”








						David Hogg says he'll continue wearing a mask outdoors so people don't mistake him for a conservative
					

Liberal activist David Hogg responded to relaxed mask guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention by saying he will continue to wear a mask so people don’t think he’s a conservative.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com


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## kingslug (May 28, 2021)

The subway cars are totally plastered with wear a mask signs....Metro North announcements all the time about wearing one..or get removed from the train...


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## machski (May 28, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The subway cars are totally plastered with wear a mask signs....Metro North announcements all the time about wearing one..or get removed from the train...


Well, the federal mandate to wear on all modes of public transit is still in effect.  That won't come down until mid September as it stands now.


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## Domeskier (May 28, 2021)

I suspect Fauci's early lies about the inefficacy of mask use (I wonder how many people died because of that) leads some people to regard the CDC's claims that masks are not needed for fully vaccinated people as just another ham-fisted attempt at social engineering.


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## boston_e (May 28, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> I suspect Fauci's early lies about the inefficacy of mask use (I wonder how many people died because of that) leads some people to regard the CDC's claims that masks are not needed for fully vaccinated people as just another ham-fisted attempt at social engineering.


Or a mask is just something you out on when a business owner asks you to when you come into his place of business and you are not a dick?


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## Domeskier (May 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Or a mask is just something you out on when a business owner asks you to when you come into his place of business and you are not a dick?


The question I was addressing is why people continue to wear masks when and where it's not mandated.  I don't think it's correct to view all or even the majority of voluntary mask wearers as virtue signaling.  Blue areas were hit very hard by the pandemic early on and conflicting statements by public health figures throughout the pandemic on the efficacy of masks makes it hard to trust them when they now say masks are unnecessary. Continuing concern for one's health (whether or not reasonable) seems like a much better explanation for continued mask-wearing at this point.

There is certainly no excuse for not wearing a mask where a business owner requires it.


----------



## boston_e (May 28, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> The question I was addressing is why people continue to wear masks when and where it's not mandated.  I don't think it's correct to view all or even the majority of voluntary mask wearers as virtue signaling.  Blue areas were hit very hard by the pandemic early on and conflicting statements by public health figures throughout the pandemic on the efficacy of masks makes it hard to trust them when they now say masks are unnecessary. Continuing concern for one's health (whether or not reasonable) seems like a much better explanation for continued mask-wearing at this point.
> 
> There is certainly no excuse for not wearing a mask where a business owner requires it.


Fair enough, but people also have to realize that any conflicting statements regarding the effectiveness of mask were not "lies" (as you called them) but rather was the best guidance available based on the information they had for what was a very unknown virus.  Obviously we have learned a lot more about it over time and know much more know than was known in the early stages and naturally guidance can change as more research is done.

As to why people still wear masks when not mandated, as I mentioned before, I'd guess for the most part it is simply habit, not knowing what the actual guidelines are and just erring on the side of caution or simply forgetting they even have it on or that the guidance has changed.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (May 28, 2021)

listen  if you want to wear a mask cool if you don't cool.   It doesn't need to be a political statement. even if it is who cares...   Many Asians still wore masks after the bird flu and swine flu things a number of years ago.  I hate wearing a mask I did when it was required I likely won't when it isn't.  I may in certain situations, but probably not.


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## boston_e (May 28, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> listen  if you want to wear a mask cool if you don't cool.   It doesn't need to be a political statement. even if it is who cares...   Many Asians still wore masks after the bird flu and swine flu things a number of years ago.  I hate wearing a mask I did when it was required I likely won't when it isn't.  I may in certain situations, but probably not.


 
One thing for sure, nobody will ever look like a freak wearing a mask on a plane going forward...


----------



## Domeskier (May 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Fair enough, but people also have to realize that any conflicting statements regarding the effectiveness of mask were not "lies" (as you called them) but rather was the best guidance available based on the information they had for what was a very unknown virus.


Subsequent statements from Fauci made it pretty clear that he discouraged mask use early on not because he did not believe masks were effective but because he wanted to discourage hoarding of PPE.  Noble lies are still lies and, in this case, probably led to a net increase in deaths.


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## Smellytele (May 28, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> Subsequent statements from Fauci made it pretty clear that he discouraged mask use early on not because he did not believe masks were effective but because he wanted to discourage hoarding of PPE.  Noble lies are still lies and, in this case, probably led to a net increase in deaths.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions...


----------



## icecoast1 (May 28, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> Subsequent statements from Fauci made it pretty clear that he discouraged mask use early on not because he did not believe masks were effective but because he wanted to discourage hoarding of PPE.  Noble lies are still lies and, in this case, probably led to a net increase in deaths.


Nothing that guy says should ever be taken seriously ever again.


----------



## boston_e (May 28, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Nothing that guy says should ever be taken seriously ever again.



Why would anyone listen to him when we know we could just take Hydroxychloroquine or inject ourselves with bleach if we get sick?


----------



## Not Sure (May 28, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> Subsequent statements from Fauci made it pretty clear that he discouraged mask use early on not because he did not believe masks were effective but because he wanted to discourage hoarding of PPE.  Noble lies are still lies and, in this case, probably led to a net increase in deaths.


Such a pathetic excuse from Fauci . Could have been done honestly ...Foreign to him ?  He could have gone to the nearest microphone and said . "America we need your help ,please bring your N95 masks to the nearest hospital "  They would have as many as they needed .


----------



## 2Planker (May 28, 2021)

Most folks (75%) are still wearing a mask in downtown Boston.
Especially in Chinatown. But they've been doing that for at least 10 years...


----------



## Edd (May 29, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Especially in Chinatown. But they've been doing that for at least 10 years...


They’ve been virtue signaling for 10 years!!? Oooooo, that makes me so mad!!!


----------



## VTKilarney (May 29, 2021)

I had dinner in London’s Chinatown on February 28th, 2020.  Probably not the best decision in hindsight, but wasn’t it racist to objectively acknowledge where the disease came from?  I seem to recall that it was DEFINITELY racist to ponder if COVID-19 leaked from the Wuhan lab.  For some reason that stopped being racist starting in January of this year.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Fair enough, but *people also have to realize that any conflicting statements regarding the effectiveness of mask were not "lies" (as you called them) but rather was the best guidance available based on the information they had *



Oh, honey, no, please brace yourself for this, but they really were lies.


----------



## BenedictGomez (May 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Why would anyone listen to him when *we know we could just take Hydroxychloroquine* or inject ourselves with bleach if we get sick?



    Your use of Hydroxychloroquine in the negative demonstrates how partisan you are.

I happen to work for one of the few companies on Planet Earth who manufactures Hydroxychloroquine, and I can tell you that the *numerous *nations* BEGGING* us to increase our production lines or to do whatever was in our power was possible to make more Hydroxychloroquine about a year ago was not because, _"teh ORanGE MahN SED So"._   Yes, I realize that's what whatever far-left garbage like Daily Kos or MSNBC or Huffington Post downloaded into your brain and so you _obediently _believed it, but it was never true.

 There was in fact a time when Hydroxychloroquine was really believed to perhaps be a lifesaver, and sadly while that did not turn out to be true, it made it no less stressful the part of those of us in industry at the time trying to think of ways to make of much of the stuff as possible back when it was thought that perhaps it might save lives.  This includes things like, "can we responsibly add manufacturing line(s)"?  Will XYZ European government (most of the ones aggressively contacting us)  pay us to add lines?  If we dont add lines but run employees overtime how much more Hydroxychloroquine can we make while breaking even on overtime payments?  All of this **** was real world concerns.


----------



## mbedle (May 30, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Such a pathetic excuse from Fauci . Could have been done honestly ...Foreign to him ?  He could have gone to the nearest microphone and said . "America we need your help ,please bring your N95 masks to the nearest hospital "  They would have as many as they needed .


I am assuming that you are kidding.


BenedictGomez said:


> Oh, honey, no, please brace yourself for this, but they really were lies.



Help me out here "honey", having a hard time with this:

It is worth reading Fauci’s exact words from his March 8 interview on CBS's "60 Minutes.":

FAUCI: The masks are important for someone who's infected to prevent them from infecting someone else. Now, when you see people and look at the films in China and South Korea, whatever, and everybody's wearing a mask. Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks.

HOST: You're sure of this, because people are listening really closely to this. 

FAUCI: Right. Now people should not be walk— there's no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you're in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it's not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.

And often there are unintended consequences. People keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face. 

HOST: And you can get some schmutz sort of staying inside there.

FAUCI: Of course, but when you think "masks," you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. The people — when you look at the films of countries, and you see 85% of the people wearing masks, that's fine. That's fine. I'm not against it. If you want to do it, that's fine. 

HOST: But it can lead to a shortage. 

FAUCI: Exactly, that’s the point. It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it.

Fauci’s critics have focused on his words "there's no reason to be walking around with a mask." But in the same interview, he also said that it was "fine" to wear a mask, although it wouldn’t offer perfect protection. And he said the main point was to preserve masks for those who were already ill and people providing care.

On March 27, Fauci spoke to a San Francisco NBC affiliate. He said given the shortage of masks, the general public ranked last behind doctors and nurses, and people who are infected.

"When we say you don't need to wear a mask, what we're really saying is make sure you prioritize it first for the people who need the mask," Fauci said. "In a perfect world, if you had all the masks you wanted, then you could get some degree of protection, but make sure you prioritize it well."


----------



## JimG. (May 30, 2021)

Summer must really suck for you guys.


----------



## VTKilarney (May 31, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Summer must really suck for you guys.



My phone has a cool feature.  It lets me skip things I don’t like to read.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 31, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> My phone has a cool feature.  It lets me skip things I don’t like to read.


Great feature!  I can think of several other cool features your phone is missing though.


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## kingslug (May 31, 2021)

Well..this weekend sucked for sure...


----------



## Dickc (May 31, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Well..this weekend sucked for sure...


I thought slugs liked wet rainy weather........


----------



## Smellytele (May 31, 2021)

Was in Stowe this weekend. Did a gravel bike ride Sunday and golfed this morning. Made the best of it. At Lawson’s now


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## JimG. (May 31, 2021)

VTKilarney said:


> My phone has a cool feature.  It lets me skip things I don’t like to read.


Moderators don't have that option.

We get to read everything.


----------



## Hawk (Jun 1, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> listen  if you want to wear a mask cool if you don't cool.   It doesn't need to be a political statement. even if it is who cares...   Many Asians still wore masks after the bird flu and swine flu things a number of years ago.  I hate wearing a mask I did when it was required I likely won't when it isn't.  I may in certain situations, but probably not.


Jimmy has a good point here.  I have Asian co-workers that have been wearing masks for years when they are feel even a little sick.  One of these coworkers told me that out of respect to others they wear the mask to diminish the risk of transferring colds and flu to others.  I would think that 1 in 1000 people might wear the mask as some kind of Virtue Signaling but to label all people with mask that way is just simplification.


----------



## machski (Jun 1, 2021)

I can say if you travel a lot it is damn confusing where and where not you have to mask up.  About half the hotels I have been to this week allowed vaccinated to go mask free in public spaces.  The other half still required all to be masked in public spaces outside of actively eating/drinking.  Some of those I'm pretty sure we're due to municipalities and not necessarily the hotel itself.  Others were still the business.  We both would by habit walk into hotels with masks on and then if we didn't see mask signs or saw a sign stating the adjusted guidance, would take them off.  Restaurants are slower but we found a few this week too not requiring them of guests (though employees were still fully masked up).


----------



## machski (Jun 1, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Jimmy has a good point here.  I have Asian co-workers that have been wearing masks for years when they are feel even a little sick.  One of these coworkers told me that out of respect to others they wear the mask to diminish the risk of transferring colds and flu to others.  I would think that 1 in 1000 people might wear the mask as some kind of Virtue Signaling but to label all people with mask that way is just simplification.


I do think moving forward many more may mask up if feeling ill out of courtesy to others.  The question will be are employers ok with these folks coming to work and not calling out sick.


----------



## Hawk (Jun 1, 2021)

Times have changed for sure.  I think that most major companies are re-writing office protocols to increase the pressure for people to stay home when sick.  I for one would never stay home from work when I was felling sick unless I was dying.  I also thought that people should make every effort to come in.  Not now.  The unfortunate part is that people will now take total advantage of this.

During winter flue season I might consider wearing a good and proper mask if I am going on crowded public transportation.  Then again I might not depending on how things go.  Hard to say right now.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jun 1, 2021)

with remote work being accepted for the past 15 months.  If you have a slight cold, stay home and work or call out sick if you are too damn sick to work.  That should be the norm.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 1, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> with remote work being accepted for the past 15 months.  If you have a slight cold, stay home and work or call out sick if you are too damn sick to work.  That should be the norm.


Easy to say if your job allows working at home. People in the service industry don't always have that as an option. Also when you only have a limited amount of sick time then if you are slightly sick will you stay home? Some places also roll all time off into one bucket so it cuts into vaca time...


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## NYDB (Jun 1, 2021)

Right.  Plus sick days are for skiing midweek powder, not for being sick.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 1, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Some places also roll all time off into one bucket so it cuts into vaca time...


Yup...that's why I try to avoid using sick days for things like a simple cold or cough.


----------



## boston_e (Jun 1, 2021)

machski said:


> I can say if you travel a lot it is damn confusing where and where not you have to mask up.  About half the hotels I have been to this week allowed vaccinated to go mask free in public spaces.  The other half still required all to be masked in public spaces outside of actively eating/drinking.  Some of those I'm pretty sure we're due to municipalities and not necessarily the hotel itself.  Others were still the business.  We both would by habit walk into hotels with masks on and then if we didn't see mask signs or saw a sign stating the adjusted guidance, would take them off.  Restaurants are slower but we found a few this week too not requiring them of guests (though employees were still fully masked up).



Even not traveling it can be a bit confusing in various stores etc..  As you describe, I'm keeping a mask with me and I'm checking to see if there is any signage or anything at the entrance before wearing or not wearing a mask.


----------



## boston_e (Jun 1, 2021)

Agree with all of the recent posts.  If people have the ability to work from home, companies will likely be encouraging it if someone is sick (but not so sick that they can't do phone calls / emails etc).  Covid or not, they definitely won't want someone with a fever in their office / facility.


----------



## flakeydog (Jun 1, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Right.  Plus sick days are for skiing midweek powder, not for being sick.





cdskier said:


> Yup...that's why I try to avoid using sick days for things like a simple cold or cough.


This is why many companies now treat sick time like vacation time because people felt entitled to "use" their sick time no matter what.  It just encourages people to come in while sick so they dont burn vacation time or lose income.  If you get really sick, injured, accident, etc you could be out weeks of pay.  

We'll see how that works out post-pandemic.  Sick time should just be there when needed but not treated like an entitlement.


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## cdskier (Jun 1, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> This is why many companies now treat sick time like vacation time because people felt entitled to "use" their sick time no matter what.  It just encourages people to come in while sick so they dont burn vacation time or lose income.  If you get really sick, injured, accident, etc you could be out weeks of pay.
> 
> We'll see how that works out post-pandemic.  Sick time should just be there when needed but not treated like an entitlement.


Not quite sure I agree with being used as an example of what you're trying to say. Even if I had unlimited sick days, I still wouldn't use them for any tiny little thing and certainly not if I wasn't sick at all. I'm the type of person that would worry I'd somehow "jinx" myself if I used one when it wasn't really justified and then I really would get sick.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 1, 2021)

We were in Fairbanks Alaska over Memorial day weekend to see our son.  They have dropped indoor use of a masks for the most part.  Recommend masks if not vaccinated but not mandatory.  Even Starbucks was on board.  Our doors you do not see anyone wearing a mask.  Then again it is not a very crowded place even indoors.

The airlines on the other hand were hyper focused on mask wearing.


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## 2Planker (Jun 1, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Jimmy has a good point here.  I have Asian co-workers that have been wearing masks for years when they are feel even a little sick.  One of these coworkers told me that out of respect to others they wear the mask to diminish the risk of transferring colds and flu to others.  I would think that 1 in 1000 people might wear the mask as some kind of Virtue Signaling but to label all people with mask that way is just simplification.


I work in Boston's Chinatown.  
Masks have been pretty common since "Asian Bird Flu" aka H5N1in 2005


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## Harvey (Jun 2, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> Sick time should just be there when needed but not treated like an entitlement.


+1


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## Hawk (Jun 2, 2021)

flakeydog said:


> This is why many companies now treat sick time like vacation time because people felt entitled to "use" their sick time no matter what.  It just encourages people to come in while sick so they dont burn vacation time or lose income.  If you get really sick, injured, accident, etc you could be out weeks of pay.
> 
> We'll see how that works out post-pandemic.  Sick time should just be there when needed but not treated like an entitlement.


Every company has their HR policies regarding sick time.  My company just has PTO time and it is all the same.  They give us 10 days on top of our vacation PTO.   It became the policy when they narrowed down our holidays to only 5.  You can use them for sick time, jury duty, funerals, the I have an eye infection and I just can't see going in because it is snowing days, whatever.  They don't ask and it's your call.  So 10 days on top of 4 weeks on top of carry over and boom!  Why work at all.....LOL


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 2, 2021)

So when I lived in CO one of my colleagues took a sick day and went skiing.  Ended up tearing his ACL.  The company policy clearly states that any misuse will be investigated so they launched an investigation for misuse of sick time which is a violation of company policy.   Resulted in getting written up and 90 days probation.  He later was let go.

That would be my fate if I did that.  My wife has wanted me to do so but cannot bring my self to do that.


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## Hawk (Jun 2, 2021)

That's why you don't work for companies like that.  Find a better company.  That's a shitty policy and completely atypical for most.
BTW - How did they investigate and find out where he got hurt.  Did he work for the freeking CIA or something?


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## skiur (Jun 2, 2021)

Why didn't your friend just say he fell down the stairs at home?


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## Edd (Jun 2, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So when I lived in CO one of my colleagues took a sick day and went skiing.  Ended up tearing his ACL.  The company policy clearly states that any misuse will be investigated so they launched an investigation for misuse of sick time which is a violation of company policy.   Resulted in getting written up and 90 days probation.  He later was let go.
> 
> That would be my fate if I did that.  My wife has wanted me to do so but cannot bring my self to do that.


This is why I avoid skiing on a sick day. I don’t think my employer would be that intense about it but, eh, just feels awkward.


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## kingslug (Jun 3, 2021)

I told them..I ski..a lot...figure it out. So far no problem.


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## kingslug (Jun 3, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I told them..I ski..a lot...figure it out. So far no problem.


The problem with lying about things is if you get caught..they will never trust you again.


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## Hawk (Jun 3, 2021)

Don't be stupid and get caught.  You get hurt skiing, you go home and never speak about it to anyone.  What is so hard about that.  I slipped and twisted my knee or whatever.  You guys make is sound like they send out investigators or it is a huge moral dilemma.  It's not that big a deal.  I guess I am the only one on here that has a company that does not really care as long as the work get's done.  I work for a good company.


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## drjeff (Jun 3, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Don't be stupid and get caught.  You get hurt skiing, you go home and never speak about it to anyone.  What is so hard about that.  I slipped and twisted my knee or whatever.  You guys make is sound like they send out investigators or it is a huge moral dilemma.  It's not that big a deal.  I guess I am the only one on here that has a company that does not really care as long as the work get's done.  I work for a good company.



My business partner and I chose back prior to the pandemic starting that we were going to just lump all categories of paid time off (we had vacation time, personal time (often used for things like having to leave an hour or so early to take a kid to a Dr's appt), and sick time) into just the category of paid time off. Once our staff got past the concept of the change in name and that it didn't affect their total combined hours that those individual categories formerly comprised, it was well received and frankly from an employers standpoint easier to handle vs the age old question we used to get about "how many of X hours do I still have?" ahead of any planned (or unplanned/unexpected time off) and/or when we were tabulating things for payroll.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 3, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I guess I am the only one on here that has a company that does not really care as long as the work get's done.  I work for a good company.


I broke my collarbone skiing during lunch in February, no one at work said a word to me about it.  Maybe my boss thought I was an idiot for skiing at lunch, but I get my shit done so there is nothing to complain about.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 3, 2021)

Hawk said:


> That's why you don't work for companies like that.  Find a better company.  That's a shitty policy and completely atypical for most.
> BTW - How did they investigate and find out where he got hurt.  Did he work for the freeking CIA or something?



It was a utility and they are tight with sick time.  Not sure how they did their investigation since medical records are protected  - but when you are home sick it is pretty tough to tear your ACL - it happens but ....  So that raised a red flag.  

I used to work for General Dynamics and two people from different departments took sick time and rolled in the hay sort of speak and got poison ivy - that raised a red flag for sure.  Not sure what happened to them.  They were both married but not to each other.  Karma has a way of funny way of working things out!


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## 2Planker (Jun 3, 2021)

I canned 2 employees for calling in sick and hittin' the slopes....
Stupid enough to do it, then post pics everywhere of their powder day... DUH


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## Bosco DaSkia (Jun 3, 2021)

yeah, yer a douchebag….. and now we all know it.


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## snoseek (Jun 3, 2021)

In restaurants you're expected to work sick...nurses as well and yes that should bother you.

I personally make it clear with my employer if its snowing hard I gotta go and it's usually fine. Follow the weather and trying to give them plenty of time to work things out is key.


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## thebigo (Jun 3, 2021)

Interesting conversation. In the engineering world, if you have been around long enough nobody cares. I get 47 days per year and take far more than that if you count all the half days and days I forget to enter in ADP. The tradeoff is that I am never truly off. Cannot begin to estimate the number of emails, phone calls, texts, teams meeting I take while skiing. Sucked this year without a bar; was constantly trying to time emails/texts on the lift while simultaneously avoiding frostbite.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 4, 2021)

I think companies will definitely look back on this past year and see how effective people were working from home (in some cases, ineffective).  I do not think everyone will work from homegoing forward but a larger number than before will be.  Why not, it will lower costs on office space, it reduces the spread of anything contagious, reduces the amount of cooler talk, people often find themselves working a little longer then if they were in the office.  What it will not do is prevent those from cheating!  This is a loose term, there are many that can work and play in harmony - so those are the exceptions.  I bet there were many people that technically took time during the day to ski, hike, do errands, or other non working events that they would not have done if they were not working at the office.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 4, 2021)

my company owns the building that and the control freak nature of the owners will limit us to some sort of hybrid 2 or 3 days in the office vs working completely remotely.  which is honestly fine.  My boss (one of the owners) and I were discussing and he put it this way.  If I told you in January 2020 that you could work from home 2 days a week forever you would've thought it was the greatest thing ever.


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## 2Planker (Jun 7, 2021)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> yeah, yer a douchebag….. and now we all know it.


Right.... Get a grip ___________. You fill in the blank

  Run a small business w/ 12-15 employees and that shit never has, and never will be tolerated.
           Med., Dental, 4 weeks paid Vacation,   401K.
Those 2 morons are the only 2 who have ever left our practice and that's going back more than 30 years.
 One of 'em works for my buddy now, No paid Vac, No 401K, No Med/Dental


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2021)

Going forward WFH is going to be a tug-of-war battle between gray-haired boomers in charge & the millennials replacing them.  Generally speaking, the former dislike a WFH business environment & the latter embrace it.  But the genie is out of the bottle & cannot be recaptured; WFH is here to stay.  The commercial real estate market is screwed, and I surmise many tall buildings coast to coast will be remodeled with restaurants, services, and retail on the bottom floor, and floors 2 through X as apartments.


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## Hawk (Jun 8, 2021)

Actually the Grey-haired boomers are being replaced with us for the most part.  The gen x-ers born in the 60's and 70's.  Experience still trumps young innovative approaches.  Work from home is good for a good portion of IT based business and service based organizations but there is still many professions that you need to be in the office.  It is my experience that people being home has not been nearly as productive.  I can't tell you how many deadlines have been missed on my projects because people working from home just could not get it done it time.  With no one watching, there is no sense of urgency.  I am not a fan and will continue to go into work because it is the right thing to do and is much more rewarding culturally, gastronomically and socially.  You can't get that on your phone or computer.  You will find that many still think that working from the office is better for productivity and in the end that should govern more people gong to work.

I know the response from the NYC urbanites will be different but you are in the minority.


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## skef (Jun 14, 2021)

Vermont is fully open as of 11 AM today.


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## slatham (Jun 14, 2021)

From  Wall Street ,while most firms are planning for some WFH the vast majority have a stated mandate to return to the office, with 2-3 days in the office the norm.  Several have said to the effect "you won't have to be in the office everyday, but you'll have to be in on a regular basis". And "nobody is working from home 100% of the time". Another said WFH will be capped at 2-3 days depending on role". Several have said most front office jobs will return to 5 days in the office. I think this will become more prevalent across other industries as the summer goes on.

A key aspect of this trend is that employees will need to live close to work given the significant number of days in the office. The idea of working from my new home in VT (or fill in the blank) that is 3+ hours from the office will not be practical or the norm.

Question is, how many people bought places in VT (or fill in the blank) assuming they'd be fully WFH or close to fully WFH and now have to change plans?


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## skiur (Jun 14, 2021)

slatham said:


> From  Wall Street ,while most firms are planning for some WFH the vast majority have a stated mandate to return to the office, with 2-3 days in the office the norm.  Several have said to the effect "you won't have to be in the office everyday, but you'll have to be in on a regular basis". And "nobody is working from home 100% of the time". Another said WFH will be capped at 2-3 days depending on role". Several have said most front office jobs will return to 5 days in the office. I think this will become more prevalent across other industries as the summer goes on.
> 
> A key aspect of this trend is that employees will need to live close to work given the significant number of days in the office. The idea of working from my new home in VT (or fill in the blank) that is 3+ hours from the office will not be practical or the norm.
> 
> Question is, how many people bought places in VT (or fill in the blank) assuming they'd be fully WFH or close to fully WFH and now have to change plans?



Well honestly, if people did that they are idiots thinking they could wfh for the rest of their lives.  We all know what happens when one assumes things


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## kbroderick (Jun 14, 2021)

skiur said:


> Well honestly, if people did that they are idiots thinking they could wfh for the rest of their lives.  We all know what happens when one assumes things


Depending on the industry, it may also be that they can WFH for the rest of their careers, if they are willing to accept a different position (possibly with a different pay rate, since they're competing with places like Missouri). My bet is that some white collar workers will have enough demand for their services that they can be picky about location requirements. Others may not, or may prefer to be close to the office for a variety of reasons.

The big questions when it comes to the larger impacts of those trends, IMO, is (a) how many fall into each category, and (b) how many in the "office regularly" category don't feel a need to sell the remote places they bought.

I do think another factor will be schools--more remote school districts usually have better staff to student ratios, but that makes it harder to provide the same range of offerings. Some families will probably prefer the smaller schools, others may miss the offerings in bigger towns.


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## 2Planker (Jun 14, 2021)

We're soon to be "fully open", No more WFH for staff, admin, IT. The Party is over.

 Vaccines required for all.
Weekly Surveillance testing still on for "Patient Facing" personnel - Not sure how long that's gonna last....


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## cdskier (Jun 14, 2021)

I think there are going to be a lot of "disagreements" about this topic for a bit while the dust settles between people that want WFH to continue permanently vs those that want everyone back in the office. A lot depends on your specific role and type of company, but there are many areas that should be able to do just fine with a more flexible WFH/Hybrid arrangement. Companies would be wise to embrace this if at all possible as it will be a significant part of the future of work in many cases. Companies that fail to embrace this and push back too much are going to have more issues with turnover and attracting talent in the long run (there was an article on this topic in Bloomberg a few weeks ago).

Personally in my area (IT for a global company), there's not really a ton of value in going back to the office. Even pre-COVID I was only going into the office 3 days a week. And even then 95% of my meetings were already Zoom meetings. It was rare that any meetings in my area took place in actual conference rooms. In the US most of our IT people are based in our NJ, PA, or MA offices. It was pretty rare for any entire IT team to be in any single one of those locations (with the exception of teams that are focused very narrowly on specific sites like some lab or manufacturing IT teams). Then add in the fact that we also work and have meetings with a lot of global colleagues in Europe, Asia, and South America (or vendors that are located in their own company sites). So what's the point of me going to the office just to join a Zoom call?

Officially our offices will reopen in the fall to everyone. We had already started working on plans to shrink our office footprint in NJ prior to COVID anyway due to how many people were not coming into the office on a regular basis before this all started. So our official "you need to be in the office 2-3 days a week" policy seems to conflict a bit with the message being sent by our facilities/real estate teams when they keep wanting to consolidate and reduce our office footprint. It'll be interesting to see what actually happens in the fall once they're open.

Oh...and vaccines are "encouraged" but not required to go back to the office once they reopen.


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## cdskier (Jun 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> and there lies the difference.  You CAN work very effectively from home, while most  in healthcare can't.
> 
> Although I do wish our IT was on site for simple stuff that used to take 10 mins.
> 
> ...



We've always had our "onsite" IT people physically onsite to some degree even at the height of the pandemic (especially at our R&D and manufacturing sites where we simply can't stop activities no matter what). Some of that stuff just can't be done remotely and I totally agree with you and get that. This is where companies shouldn't try to take a "one size fits all" approach though.


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## Smellytele (Jun 14, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think there are going to be a lot of "disagreements" about this topic for a bit while the dust settles between people that want WFH to continue permanently vs those that want everyone back in the office. A lot depends on your specific role and type of company, but there are many areas that should be able to do just fine with a more flexible WFH/Hybrid arrangement. Companies would be wise to embrace this if at all possible as it will be a significant part of the future of work in many cases. Companies that fail to embrace this and push back too much are going to have more issues with turnover and attracting talent in the long run (there was an article on this topic in Bloomberg a few weeks ago).
> 
> Personally in my area (IT for a global company), there's not really a ton of value in going back to the office. Even pre-COVID I was only going into the office 3 days a week. And even then 95% of my meetings were already Zoom meetings. It was rare that any meetings in my area took place in actual conference rooms. In the US most of our IT people are based in our NJ, PA, or MA offices. It was pretty rare for any entire IT team to be in any single one of those locations (with the exception of teams that are focused very narrowly on specific sites like some lab or manufacturing IT teams). Then add in the fact that we also work and have meetings with a lot of global colleagues in Europe, Asia, and South America (or vendors that are located in their own company sites). So what's the point of me going to the office just to join a Zoom call?
> 
> ...


Well they could do open seating. No assigned seating so only 1/2 the seats would be needed.


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## cdskier (Jun 14, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Well they could do open seating. No assigned seating so only 1/2 the seats would be needed.


Actually we did that already about a year (or was it 2 years?) before the pandemic started. We went from 4 buildings at our NJ site to 3 buildings when we implemented open space seating.


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## Bosco DaSkia (Jun 14, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Right.... Get a grip ___________. You fill in the blank
> 
> Run a small business w/ 12-15 employees and that shit never has, and never will be tolerated.
> Med., Dental, 4 weeks paid Vacation,   401K.
> ...



typical douchbag response…


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## 2Planker (Jun 15, 2021)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> typical douchbag response…


Right working for $17-20/hr w/ No beni's is way better  

 What they LOST annually
  -   $7,500 into their 401K
  -   $6,000 for Medical Ins.
  -   $750 Dental Ins
  -   $6,000 4 weeks paid Vacation


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## kingslug (Jun 15, 2021)

Its certainly affected my line of work to a degree. But an office building is still just a big machine..and you can't maintain a machine from your house..so at least I have that going for me..Kind of nice having all those complaints coming in..but that will change..when they come back.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 15, 2021)

S the company my wife works for sold 4 of the 5 buildings they own in the Denver area since they will be going to a hotel concept where some employees will return 2-3 days per week and some others will be completely WFH such as my wife.  The buildings they sold are being renovated into apartments.

The company I work for plans on making their final plans complete by August and September will be when they implement the new plan.  Prior to Covid they were doing 1 day per week from home and now are considering 2-3 days WFH.  We will see how long that lasts.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 17, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think there are going to be a lot of "disagreements" about this topic for a bit while the dust settles between people that want WFH to continue permanently vs those that want everyone back in the office. *A lot depends on your specific role and type of company, but there are many areas that should be able to do just fine with a more flexible WFH/Hybrid arrangement.* Companies would be wise to embrace this if at all possible as it will be a significant part of the future of work in many cases. *Companies that fail to embrace this and push back too much are going to have more issues with turnover and attracting talent in the long run* (there was an article on this topic in Bloomberg a few weeks ago).



That's 100% my belief.  It may take a little while, but the companies run by the gray-hairs demanding stricker returns & less WFH are going to have talent-acquisition problems.   The genie is out of the bottle.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 17, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> the company my wife works for sold 4 of the 5 buildings they own in the Denver area since they will be going to a hotel concept where some employees will return 2-3 days per week and some others will be completely WFH such as my wife.  *The buildings they sold are being renovated into apartments.*



And this is the other part of my belief.  A commercial real estate crisis is coming, and tons of office buildings are going to be turned into apartment buildings, and now is doubly the perfect time for it due to rising housing prices & demographic trends.  The first floor will be restaurants, services, and retail.  If there's a publicly traded company tooling up to focus on this, I'd invest in them.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 17, 2021)

Morgan Stanley CEO taking a hard line on folks returning to the office.  Sounds like a real prick









						'Be back by Labor Day' — Morgan Stanley CEO issues sternest warning yet for employees delaying a return to work
					

“If you can go to a restaurant in New York City, you can come in to the office,” James Gorman said.




					www.nbcnews.com


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## cdskier (Jun 17, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Morgan Stanley CEO taking a hard line on folks returning to the office.  Sounds like a real prick
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds really pleasant to work for...  

I see a lot of the major public finance companies being some of the most adamant about wanting their employees back in the office. There was a recent survey that said something like 39% of people would be willing to quit their jobs if they were forced back to the office. Personally I'd love to see what some of these companies would do if even half of those people followed through.


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## Edd (Jun 17, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Morgan Stanley CEO taking a hard line on folks returning to the office.  Sounds like a real prick
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kinda seems like BS but it’s hard for me to say being unfamiliar with that industry. That face to face collaboration thing seems a bit more Silicon Valley and less old school Wall Street. Is he just being a dick?


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## thebigo (Jun 17, 2021)

Had a buddy that worked in the investment industry. They on board people out of college, expect massive hours and then replace people with another grad when they burn out. Effectively treating people as a consumable good; nothing remotely similar to the traditional career paths in most industries. He made his money in his 20's, took a number off years when his kids were young and then found a remote consulting job.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 17, 2021)

Edd said:


> Kinda seems like BS but it’s hard for me to say being unfamiliar with that industry. That face to face collaboration thing seems a bit more Silicon Valley and less old school Wall Street. Is he just being a dick?



Is "The Great Resignation" really coming?  Many think that there will be about 30% turn over if people finding new jobs.


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## 2Planker (Jun 17, 2021)

Wife's college and our Med. Cntr.  are both done w/ WFH on July 1.
Masks req. for the unvacc. 
There have definitely been a good number of resignations so far, w/ more to come.....


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## drjeff (Jun 17, 2021)

Guessing that many folks who want to stay 100% WFH and think that they aren't replaceable at their jobs, and that their bosses who they think are dicks for wanting them to be in the office for some period of time, are about to find out that yes, their sh$t does stink regardless of what they think, and that some will move on to bigger and better things, while others, whom are less motivated, will struggle and make excuses rather than admit their own inadequacies


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## Andrew B. (Jun 18, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Morgan Stanley CEO taking a hard line on folks returning to the office.  Sounds like a real prick
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When you talk about working for a New York salary and living in a less expensive place he has a point. 
There are only so many WFH opportunities out there and I expect that market will get real competitive (<$) real quick.


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## kingslug (Jun 18, 2021)

Plus these companies have to justify spending money on office buildings that they have to pay for regardless of how many people are in it.


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## Harvey (Jun 18, 2021)

It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.  As an owner I'm one of the assholes who'd like to see employees come back.  I've been mostly in the office, alone a lot of the time, and personally I do like working from home.



kingslug said:


> Plus these companies have to justify spending money on office buildings that they have to pay for regardless of how many people are in it.



I'm not exactly objective on the whole WFH thing. Our building isn't really a traditional office building, but it is being used for that.  I'm hoping it retains it's value, selling my share of it is/was and important part of my retirement plan.


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## thebigo (Jun 18, 2021)

One of the buzz words around the manufacturing world is hoteling. Office space is no longer dedicated but booked via outlook on in person days. This is necessary for two reasons: 

- Manufacturing has simply spread out over the last year and a half. Either moved from factory floor benches to vacant offices or in some cases converted old cubes to production floor space. 

- The manner in which the support functions communicate with users has seen a sea change. The old approach was email drawing/code/spec on monday, review for a few days, set a conference call later in the week. Struggle mightily to understand the problem, give up and get on a plane. If lucky, the issue would be resolved within a couple weeks. The new approach is email the inquiry Monday morning, set a teams meeting Monday afternoon, spend several hours on Teams and have the issue resolved on Tuesday. 

The tools were available a couple years ago but not adapted because older engineers tend to be set in their ways. At many organizations nobody below the director or SME level have offices with an actual door. The staff engineers are in a cubicle farm not suitable for spending several hours a day on Teams. 

Also of note, in my experience, the Americas have led on the WFH transition. LATAM/US/CAN have largely transitioned; EUROPE got everyone back in the office as as soon as possible - to the point of spreader events among PHD level developers that should have been WFH.


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## Hawk (Jun 18, 2021)

I am on the other end of this.  I see no issues with coming back to work.  I never left.  It actually has been great the last year.  My commute went from 2-3 hours a day to 1 hr a day.  My favorite lunch spots stay open in one form or another.  So I wore a mask and distanced myself.  it was fine and I saved a ton of money not eating and drinking out all the time. just looking on the bright side I guess.  Now everything is opening up here in Boston and things are close to normal around here.  I find it really odd that the people that don't want to come back to work are the same people that can't get me what I need and are always late to meetings and deliverables.  They are also posting pictures about dinner with friends and at restaurants.  Sorry, time for all you soft cream puffs to get back to work.  I don't really care about your pissing about achieving work life balance.  I worked my ass off so why should not you.


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## Hawk (Jun 18, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Sounds really pleasant to work for...
> 
> I see a lot of the major public finance companies being some of the most adamant about wanting their employees back in the office. There was a recent survey that said something like 39% of people would be willing to quit their jobs if they were forced back to the office. Personally I'd love to see what some of these companies would do if even half of those people followed through.


There is all this talk about the great rebellion.  I hear this all the time.  But if that amount of people quit, there is certainly not enough jobs to re-employ all of those people.  So that coupled with all the newcomers from the college ranks, I think finding a place is going to be very competitive. No? and with all the unemployment benefits ending and at some point evictions will start,  and you will find that back to work will have more urgency to people even going back to the office.    On a side note, I have several young relatives looking for work and they are saying that the WFH options are not what the business are selling so this revolution is not in full swing yet.


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## thebigo (Jun 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I am on the other end of this.  I see no issues with coming back to work.  I never left.  It actually has been great the last year.  My commute went from 2-3 hours a day to 1 hr a day.  My favorite lunch spots stay open in one form or another.  So I wore a mask and distanced myself.  it was fine and I saved a ton of money not eating and drinking out all the time. just looking on the bright side I guess.  Now everything is opening up here in Boston and things are close to normal around here.  I find it really odd that the people that don't want to come back to work are the same people that can't get me what I need and are always late to meetings and deliverables.  They are also posting pictures about dinner with friends and at restaurants.  Sorry, time for all you soft cream puffs to get back to work.  I don't really care about your pissing about achieving work life balance.  I worked my ass off so why should not you.



I am sure you are a cool dude to ski with but I am really glad I do not work with you.


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## Hawk (Jun 18, 2021)

What you don't get frustrated when people fall down, impact your project and you get blamed for it?  That is what is happening to me.  I have no problem with people that follow through but I have no sympathy for people that don't.  Most of the people I work with are great and are actually friends.  I have been with most for over 15 years.  All of us think alike.  Work is serious in my position and I don't get a pass when things fail.  Sorry if I seam harsh.


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## cdskier (Jun 18, 2021)

Hawk said:


> What you don't get frustrated when people fall down, impact your project and you get blamed for it?  That is what is happening to me.  I have no problem with people that follow through but I have no sympathy for people that don't.  Most of the people I work with are great and are actually friends.  I have been with most for over 15 years.  All of us think alike.  Work is serious in my position and I don't get a pass when things fail.  Sorry if I seam harsh.



For me and the people I work with, if the work gets done, I don't care where someone is doing it from. If someone slacks though (either when doing WFH or in the office), then I have a problem with it too. But at least for me in my company, I haven't seen any drop in productivity with people WFH. The key is managers need to hold the people that work for them accountable. The same people that slacked in the office (and had managers that didn't care back then) are still the same people slacking while working from home. The people that got stuff done when in the office are the same people still getting stuff done working from home.


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## kingslug (Jun 18, 2021)

The problem is not having face to face meetings so things are just not getting done? approved ,etc. Its very easy to cut a meeting short and not do anything when we are all online or on the phone. Plus there are just some things you have to be there to see..not just see photos sent to you. Its getting frustrating.


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## NYDB (Jun 18, 2021)

I think there was a certain momentum when WFH was forced on everyone due to covid.  Projects were already underway, people knew each other from the office, etc. so projects were still getting done and productivity remained relatively high.  We coasted a while on that but the harsh reality is most people are more productive at the office.

Also, you are starting to read stories about people having 2-3 different WFH jobs because why not?  

It is time for everyone to get back to the office so that I may have less crowded beaches, trails and ski slopes during the week.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 18, 2021)

The question is is does the loss of productivity with WFH add up to more than what is lost with commuting?  Pretty common for people in major metros like Boston and NYC to commute 1.5-2 hours one way to the office.  There's nothing more unproductive than that.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 18, 2021)

I know some people that have total taken advantage of WFH and recreate during the day where they could not before.  If you can move close to the mountains and hit the slopes for a few hours who will know?  People can answer email but smart phones or use their phones as a hotspot  so technically you are available.  One of our relatives bought an RV and has been traveling the country with his family and are doing home schooling.  Basically, there are many who have taken advantage of the situation and got paid from work or unemployment.


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## Harvey (Jun 18, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> people having 2-3 different WFH jobs



We had a guy we fired for having sex in the office. Among other things.

We walked him out and snagged his laptop, it kind of freaked him out.  On it he had a contract with another company for more than we were paying them and it was clear by his email he was working for them while we were paying him.


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## cdskier (Jun 18, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The question is is does the loss of productivity with WFH add up to more than what is lost with commuting?  Pretty common for people in major metros like Boston and NYC to commute 1.5-2 hours one way to the office.  There's nothing more unproductive than that.



Agreed. I just did some quick math and so far I've conservatively spent 225 DAYS of my life in a car commuting to the office (and that's pretty much just assuming no real traffic on any of those days). Dealing with all that commuting (and the related traffic) certainly added a lot of stress to my life that has been gone the past year. I'm in a far better mood generally speaking now. I think that (at least for me personally) translates into being more productive.

The notion that someone else said about the harsh reality being that *most *people are more productive in the office I would disagree with as well. Sure there are some people that at home might be easily distracted or need that structure of sitting in a cubicle, but there are many other people that are perfectly capable of being productive at home. Again it does depend on your specific job and line of work. There certainly are some things that are easier/better from in the office. But to say that because some jobs need to be done in the office means everyone else should be in the office is just stupid (and perhaps a bit childish).

I could argue that I know numerous people that in the office they tended to spend a good part of the day BSing with other people instead of doing actual work. And as much as I like talking with people at work, there were plenty of times that I'd have stuff to get done and couldn't because someone had come over to my desk and would be going on and on and weren't leaving. Being remote it is much easier to just focus on something without distractions like that. Then you have people that routinely go out for long lunches at work. Even just walking down to the cafeteria and bringing food back to my desk would take longer than going to my own kitchen and grabbing something. My point here is simply that there's a lot of situations in the office where productivity can be negatively impacted as well. Someone that thinks everyone (or even most people) are more productive in the office is being rather narrow-minded. I think some people are more productive in the office, some are more productive at home, and others are equally productive in both places.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that all companies and every job out there should be remote. Companies need to find the right balance and offer the right level of flexibility to cater to the individual job being done (and to the individual personalities of their employees). I do believe any CEO that says "I want every employee back in the office by such and such date" is a stubborn idiot though that didn't adequately take advantage of the forced WFH during the pandemic to learn anything. Companies that used that opportunity to actually learn and adapt will be the most successful ones in the long run.


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## cdskier (Jun 18, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I know some people that have total taken advantage of WFH and recreate during the day where they could not before.  If you can move close to the mountains and hit the slopes for a few hours who will know?  People can answer email but smart phones or use their phones as a hotspot  so technically you are available.  One of our relatives bought an RV and has been traveling the country with his family and are doing home schooling.  Basically, there are many who have taken advantage of the situation and got paid from work or unemployment.



There's always going to be people that take advantage of things unfortunately. If someone truly had that much time on their hands where they could actually get away with recreating during the day, then I'd say they didn't have enough work at work and that's a problem with either that company or that person's manager for not noticing it and addressing it. On the flip-side though if they're taking a couple hours during the day to hit the slopes and making up those couple hours in the evening, then maybe that's ok if the company knows about it and is ok with that. Some companies would be fine with people breaking up their day a bit as long as they're still getting the work done and putting in the right total number of hours.

As for people that are able to get away with working more than 1 job simultaneously, I'd suspect that is a rather small minority doing that. And honestly that could even happen from someone that works in an office (we had that scenario happen maybe 10 years ago where someone was running their own business while they were sitting in their cube at our office "working"...we eventually caught him and he lost his job).


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## Smellytele (Jun 18, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The question is is does the loss of productivity with WFH add up to more than what is lost with commuting?  Pretty common for people in major metros like Boston and NYC to commute 1.5-2 hours one way to the office.  There's nothing more unproductive than that.


But the company doesn’t care about your commute.


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## kingslug (Jun 18, 2021)

And if you don't commute to NYC..your pay is about half. I've looked into a million ways..its getting crowded in the city now. Within a month the trains are packed again.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 18, 2021)

That's kinda industry dependent.  Most of the time true, but not always


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## thebigo (Jun 19, 2021)

It is beyond weird to me that people would hang around a new england ski forum in June and advocate for commuting?

We are all here for a very limited time. I choose my kids and the mountains over traffic.


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## Harvey (Jun 19, 2021)

We have a young employee who moved to the shore during the pandemic, 90 mins away, will probably be 2 hours on a Friday night. She loves living there, now... but think she will quit when we come back.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I find it really odd that the people that don't want to come back to work are the same people that can't get me what I need and are always late to meetings and deliverables.  They are also posting pictures about dinner with friends and at restaurants.



I find it really odd too, because it is entirely at odd with, at this point, more workplace studies conducted within the last year that I can count.   In fact, productivity from WFH employees has generally increased, not decreased, and I for one am not shocked.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Morgan Stanley CEO taking a hard line on folks returning to the office.  Sounds like a real prick



He did sound like a jerk in that interview, because it was clearly said in a threatening tone.  That said, investment banking is one of the exceptions where I fully understand why he wants people in the office.  Still, there's no reason for MS accounts receivable, accounts payable, HR, most IT, yada, yada, yada to be in the office.  So to make it 100% mandatory regardless of position is not just being a jerk, it's being a non-evolving Boomer jerk.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Then *you have people that routinely go out for long lunches at work. Even just walking down to the cafeteria and bringing food back to my desk would take longer than going to my own kitchen* and grabbing something.



This is a big time give back to the employer. 

Gone are the 1 hour lunch breaks, which let's be real, in the corporate world are often 1h 15 - 1.5 hours, replaced with taking 4 minutes to make a sandwich in the kitchen & eat at your desk while working.


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## snoseek (Jun 19, 2021)

I selfishly want to see more people go back as real estate in nh has gone bonkers and this is definitely a contributing factor. Also as a midweek skier I dont want increased traffic


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## JimG. (Jun 19, 2021)

My feelings exactly snoseek.

I hope everyone goes back to the office to work ASAP. Tired of the WFH crowd impinging on my retired space,


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## Tonyr (Jun 19, 2021)

cdskier said:


> There's always going to be people that take advantage of things unfortunately. If someone truly had that much time on their hands where they could actually get away with recreating during the day, then I'd say they didn't have enough work at work and that's a problem with either that company or that person's manager for not noticing it and addressing it. On the flip-side though if they're taking a couple hours during the day to hit the slopes and making up those couple hours in the evening, then maybe that's ok if the company knows about it and is ok with that. Some companies would be fine with people breaking up their day a bit as long as they're still getting the work done and putting in the right total number of hours.
> 
> As for people that are able to get away with working more than 1 job simultaneously, I'd suspect that is a rather small minority doing that. And honestly that could even happen from someone that works in an office (we had that scenario happen maybe 10 years ago where someone was running their own business while they were sitting in their cube at our office "working"...we eventually caught him and he lost his job).


I think being successful working remotely during ski sesason depends on your job, the dedication/discipline towards it, and how creative you can get finding windows throughout the day. I stayed a month in CO and a month in UT this winter and kept on east coast time both stays while working full time. The 2 hour time lag made a huge difference opening up windows in my day. It allowed me to start work at 6 am and sort of end the day at 2 pm. I'd get 1.5 to 2 hours of skiing then I'd come back in and finish up anything I needed to work wise while I was out.

With technology being so good along with a majority of my job being spent on the phone it allowed me not to miss a single beat productivity wise. It was an awesome experience and now that I know it can be done I'll go back to doing it each winter once my son goes off to college. Unfortunately I have 8 years until that happens!


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2021)

snoseek said:


> I selfishly want to see more people go back as real estate in nh has gone bonkers and this is definitely a contributing factor. Also as a midweek skier I dont want increased traffic



The people across the street from me just moved to New Hampshire last month.

#VeryAnecdotalEvidence


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> I think being successful working remotely during ski sesason depends on your job, the dedication/discipline towards it, and how creative you can get finding windows throughout the day. I stayed a month in CO and a month in UT this winter and kept on east coast time both stays while working full time. The 2 hour time lag made a huge difference opening up windows in my day. *It allowed me to start work at 6 am and sort of end the day at 2 pm. I'd get 1.5 to 2 hours of skiing then I'd come back in and finish up anything I needed to work wise while I was out.*



That sounds like paradise.   I'm pondering a way to make this a reality.  I agree with the, life's too short poster, and frankly I'm not motivated by money anyway.


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## Tonyr (Jun 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That sounds like paradise.   I'm pondering a way to make this a reality.  I agree with the, life's too short poster, and frankly I'm not motivated by money anyway.



If you can stay on east coast time and ski mountain time it's really the best of both worlds, that 2 hour time difference is awesome. I honestly didn't miss a single beat in regards to work. Being in a sales based profession it is very easy for me to make that claim as my performance is measured on a monthly basis. 

While I was away in December, January, and February I had 3 of my top 4 best months within that trailing 12 month period. That's why I mentioned if your dedicated, disciplined, and have flexibility you can really make skiing and work happen. Except for the weekends I never once blew a day off and skied all morning/afternoon. I stuck to my schedule every single day.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 19, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> If you can stay on east coast time and ski mountain time it's really the best of both worlds, that 2 hour time difference is awesome. I honestly didn't miss a single beat in regards to work. Being in a sales based profession it is very easy for me to make that claim as my performance is measured on a monthly basis.



To make this work you must have lived right on top of the mountain though, right?  Like Park City & Silverthorne or something.


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## Tonyr (Jun 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> To make this work you must have lived right on top of the mountain though, right?  Like Park City & Silverthorne or something.



I did, pretty much everywhere we stayed during our winter travels this season was ski on ski off. You really don't have much choice other than to stay right near a lift if you want maximize daily ski time while still being fully productive at work.


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## Hawk (Jun 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I find it really odd too, because it is entirely at odd with, at this point, more workplace studies conducted within the last year that I can count.   In fact, productivity from WFH employees has generally increased, not decreased, and I for one am not shocked.


Well those studies do not apply to me.  The people that are letting me down are the WFH people on my projects.  The people that are in the office with me are coming through big time.  Much thanks to them.  No thanks to the WFH crew.


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## 2Planker (Jun 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Well those studies do not apply to me.  The people that are letting me down are the WFH people on my projects.  The people that are in the office with me are coming through big time.  Much thanks to them.  No thanks to the WFH crew.


Agree 100% !!!!!
 IT and Central Businees Office are definitely slowing things down as they WFH
What used to take an hour is now 1-2, sometimes 3 days.
Just plain ridiculous.....


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## kbroderick (Jun 21, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> I think being successful working remotely during ski sesason depends on your job, the dedication/discipline towards it, and how creative you can get finding windows throughout the day. ...


In my experience, family situation also matters. As a single guy, it was relatively easy to get out for two hours at opening bell or as a long lunch break, then make up the time in the evening. Now that I've got a wife and a one-year-old, getting work done between 5 and 7 p.m. is damn-near impossible.

Type of job also matters; the days when I have taken an extended lunch and skied or even taken the dog for a walk often made it much easier to get unstuck on problems I'd been banging my head against in the morning. I'd expect that to carry through to a lot of thought-based jobs; it obvious doesn't work so well if you're answering sales or support calls and need to cover those hours.


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## thebigo (Jun 21, 2021)

cdskier said:


> On the flip-side though if they're taking a couple hours during the day to hit the slopes and making up those couple hours in the evening, then maybe that's ok if the company knows about it and is ok with that. Some companies would be fine with people breaking up their day a bit as long as they're still getting the work done and putting in the right total number of hours.


Our local elementary school shut down for two weeks following Thanksgiving and Christmas this year. I worked full time, skied wildcat/attitash from 12-2 everyday and taught second grade. I was on my laptop most nights after midnight. I am glad we did it but it was exhausting; every minute of the day was optimized but my work did not suffer.


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## thebigo (Jun 21, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Type of job also matters; the days when I have taken an extended lunch and skied or even taken the dog for a walk often made it much easier to get unstuck on problems I'd been banging my head against in the morning. I'd expect that to carry through to a lot of thought-based jobs; it obvious doesn't work so well if you're answering sales or support calls and need to cover those hours.


Everybody that stares at a screen for a living should take a solid hour in the middle of the day to hike/swim/ski/lift/walk the dog. It is not healthy to sit still all day and a healthy workforce is a more productive workforce.


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## 2Planker (Jun 21, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Everybody that stares at a screen for a living should take a solid hour in the middle of the day to hike/swim/ski/lift/walk the dog. It is not healthy to sit still all day and a healthy workforce is a more productive workforce.


Tell that to the teenagers who are staring at a 6" screen 10-12 hours everyday......
 $$$$$ for the Ophthalmologists and Optometrists


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## Tonyr (Jun 21, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> In my experience, family situation also matters. As a single guy, it was relatively easy to get out for two hours at opening bell or as a long lunch break, then make up the time in the evening. Now that I've got a wife and a one-year-old, getting work done between 5 and 7 p.m. is damn-near impossible.
> 
> Type of job also matters; the days when I have taken an extended lunch and skied or even taken the dog for a walk often made it much easier to get unstuck on problems I'd been banging my head against in the morning. I'd expect that to carry through to a lot of thought-based jobs; it obvious doesn't work so well if you're answering sales or support calls and need to cover those hours.


Family situation absolutely matters. My son was fully remote for school the entire year and my wife was awesome about staying on him to  ensure all his work was getting done. Without either scenario our extended travels would not have happened.


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## Hawk (Jun 21, 2021)

I think everybody has gotten soft over the last year and I half.  I spent the better part of 25 years commuting and working large construction projects 10 to 12 hours a day.  In my line of work site visits and in person visits are pretty much mandatory unless you want things to get totally F-ed up.  Which they did.  Again this whole thing is perspective.  If you have a total desk job then that is what you know.  The rest of us have to deal with people that aren't making it easy and wining about work life balance.  What is that.  LOL


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## Smellytele (Jun 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I think everybody has gotten soft over the last year and I half.  I spent the better part of 25 years commuting and working large construction projects 10 to 12 hours a day.  In my line of work site visits and in person visits are pretty much mandatory unless you want things to get totally F-ed up.  Which they did.  Again this whole thing is perspective.  If you have a total desk job then that is what you know.  The rest of us have to deal with people that aren't making it easy and wining about work life balance.  What is that.  LOL


If you are doing site visits and in person visits why can't you work out of your house?


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## Hawk (Jun 22, 2021)

Because there is a large potion of Construction that is done in the office and in person.  I do not have a large format plotter at my house for drawings.  The sheer volume of hard copy paperwork can not be done at home.  Try opening up a 250 meg cad file at home and not in your office. I also like to negotiate changes and costs in person because over zoom it does not work as well and you can not impress your position as effectively.   I don't have thousands of dollars to spend to get state of the are computing, network, memory and printing capability so office is my only option.  You don't have connectivity problems, audio or visual problems or the dreaded computer reboot or software issues if you are in person.  That is my reality.


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## boston_e (Jun 22, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Because there is a large potion of Construction that is done in the office and in person.  I do not have a large format plotter at my house for drawings.  The sheer volume of hard copy paperwork can not be done at home.  Try opening up a 250 meg cad file at home and not in your office. I also like to negotiate changes and costs in person because over zoom it does not work as well and you can not impress your position as effectively.   I don't have thousands of dollars to spend to get state of the are computing, network, memory and printing capability so office is my only option.  You don't have connectivity problems, audio or visual problems or the dreaded computer reboot or software issues if you are in person.  That is my reality.


That makes sense in your case, but really it is more of an equipment / infrastructure issue that you have and not so much a working from home issue per-se.  There will be plenty of people with similar hurdles but also plenty who do not have those connectivity and equipment issues who can be just as (or more) productive from home than they can be from an office location.


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## thebigo (Jun 22, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Because there is a large potion of Construction that is done in the office and in person.  I do not have a large format plotter at my house for drawings.  The sheer volume of hard copy paperwork can not be done at home.  Try opening up a 250 meg cad file at home and not in your office. I also like to negotiate changes and costs in person because over zoom it does not work as well and you can not impress your position as effectively.   I don't have thousands of dollars to spend to get state of the are computing, network, memory and printing capability so office is my only option.  You don't have connectivity problems, audio or visual problems or the dreaded computer reboot or software issues if you are in person.  That is my reality.


When I first started working remotely, long before Covid, I recollect the lack of a C / D size printer to be an issue. We used to print everything, the drafter would assemble this huge packet and send to the checker, they would pass the packet back and forth a few times before finally sending it to my desk for approval. Inevitably I would find additional fixes and the packet would begin the cycle again. 

Now we book a review in Teams, set our status to busy and share our screens. There are no interruptions, phone calls, people leaving early, far less people out sick. We reviewed and approved a full suite of drawings, routings and BOMs yesterday afternoon in about an hour; that packet would have been shifted around the office for days using the old system. 

I recollect being concerned over the lack of physical check print in the record but it has turned out to be an overall positive not negative. Checkers used to use the check print as a crutch, no more crutch, blame is shared equally if there is found to be an error. 

The large file problem was also an issue for some time but we engaged IT and developed workarounds. I regularly share 1+ GB files with our European operations, sure they take a few minutes to load but fortunately, given the time difference, the files arrive while I am still asleep. I boot up first thing in the morning, start the download, make my coffee and by the time I sit back down the download is complete. 

Working in person for me meant several trips to Europe per year. At the time it felt necessary and being in my 20s it was awesome, looking back it was absurd. When my kids were born, my option was to figure out a way to work remote with minimal travel or take a few years off. Fortunately my employer was willing to work with me. Ultimately it proved fortuitous because when the world stopped last year, we were ready to go while other organizations struggled to shift from an antiquated in person model. It is typically difficult to track performance for engineers but the financial results for the organization as an entity are black and white, they show our ability to immediately shift everyone away from the in person model gave us a significant advantage over the competition. 

In my experience, the switch to a remote model has ultimately proved beneficial for both the employee and employer, which is how an employment relationship is supposed to function.


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## Hawk (Jun 23, 2021)

Glad it worked out for your company.  You must be a very good manager and I mean that.  My company is massive and has A/E services, Structural, environmental, and Construction Management and GC arms as well.  Some groups work well together.  Others no so much.  My opinion is that things are going slow for me and it is directly related to people working from home that have lost their sense of urgency.  Review of issues, field reports required by code, RFI answers that need site review, hands on collaboration in the field and in the office that work better in person are note getting done in a timely manner.  After 35 years in the business and watching how things have evolved and the new molded expectations, there is no question in my mind that workers that are not in the office being somewhat watched and pushed, do not get it done as fast or as efficient.  Having your boss walk down and say where the F is it is very motivating. Being face to face has much more weight when you in that position.   I myself and my colleagues and assistants have always done the extra and made it work.  Only recently, with the advent of work from home and the hiring of younger and less pushed and motivated work ethic people have I run into problems.  I will never be convinced it is good in my line of work as a project manager.


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## Smellytele (Jun 23, 2021)

Machiavellian


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## 2Planker (Jun 23, 2021)

You should hear all the excuses people are coming up w/ on why they can't return to work, but would love to stay if they could WFH.
For our full service clinics and the main hospitals the notification went out in May that July 1 was the return to the office date.


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## tumbler (Jun 23, 2021)

I think that the way of doing business has changed (obviously).  Online meetings will never be going away.  I can get 15 people in an online meeting in less than a day whereas before it would have taken over a week to coordinate schedules and then someone would be on the phone saying every 3 minutes that they can't hear.  Plus screen sharing of documents is much easier than having them in the middle of the table where two people can see them.  When people go back it will be an adjustment and I think it will reset a bit as people realize that is it really necessary to have everyone in 5 days a week when a great deal of time is spent in meetings in their office on the computer.  I am in for 2-3 days per week.


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## slatham (Jul 6, 2021)

Not sure if this discussion was here or elsewhere - couldn't find another thread.

MONTPELIER — Gov. Phil Scott on Friday vetoed a bill that aimed to improve rental housing and safety, saying it would reduce the number of housing options for people at a time when the state is grappling with a critical housing shortage.

Scott, a Republican, wrote Friday that “the solution is not more regulation," adding, “we need to invest in new and rehabilitated housing in every corner of our state.

“We need to lower costs to make housing more affordable and we need to ease complicated and duplicative permitting requirements while we have the funding to grow and improve our housing stock," he added.

He said the bill, which would have required owners of short-term rentals to register their properties with the state, adds restrictions and costs, and targets all rental units in all types of buildings “with few exceptions." Scott added he believed the bill “will discourage everyday Vermonters from offering their homes, rooms or summer cabins for rent" as a way to supplement their income.


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## drjeff (Jul 6, 2021)

slatham said:


> Not sure if this discussion was here or elsewhere - couldn't find another thread.
> 
> MONTPELIER — Gov. Phil Scott on Friday vetoed a bill that aimed to improve rental housing and safety, saying it would reduce the number of housing options for people at a time when the state is grappling with a critical housing shortage.
> 
> ...



Read a bunch of commentary the last few days about the drive/push to do this (expand "affordable" housing in the Brattleboro area in particular.

Seems to be some big picture disconnect by some pushing this (and in Brattleboro's case it is being tied to some redevelopment of their downtown area to make it both more walkable for residents to get groceries etc, and vibrant socially, and that if more "affordable" housing is incorporated into the planning that the housing will stay "affordable" without government subsidies for potential future residents of potential future projects.

Then there was the entire other side of the debate suggesting that trying to figure out some solutions to the existing homeless problem in Brattleboro (often with a concurrent substance addiction problem for the homeless) maybe should be of a more pressing concern than bringing more people into the area via new "affordable" housing projects and the likely attention that would bring from people outside the area.

Certainly a challenging topic that has lots of layers to address


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Read a bunch of commentary the last few days about the drive/push to do this (expand "affordable" housing in the Brattleboro area in particular.
> 
> Seems to be some big picture disconnect by some pushing this (and in Brattleboro's case it is being tied to some redevelopment of their downtown area to make it both more walkable for residents to get groceries etc, and vibrant socially, and that if more "affordable" housing is incorporated into the planning that the housing will stay "affordable" without government subsidies for potential future residents of potential future projects.
> 
> ...


Downtown Brattleboro is sketchy down by the co-op. Interesting


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## kingslug (Jul 8, 2021)

The "decision maker" not here...nothing approved
Comes in one day and I get 4 things approved...
Thats the difference. Its easy to blow shit off in emails....


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## Hawk (Jul 8, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Machiavellian


Smellytele, I am not sure what you are referring to.  Machiavellianism is a "personality trait that denotes cunningness, the ability to be manipulative, and a drive to use whatever means necessary to gain power".  I don't want power, I want people to do what they say they are going to do.  Just do your job and don't use covid as an excuse to stay home and not do your job.


----------



## thebigo (Jul 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The "decision maker" not here...nothing approved
> Comes in one day and I get 4 things approved...
> Thats the difference. Its easy to blow shit off in emails....



I am curious if this is a perception or verifiable. Do you use document control? Does doc control keep metrics?


----------



## NYDB (Jul 8, 2021)

2Planker said:


> You should hear all the excuses people are coming up w/ on why they can't return to work, but would love to stay if they could WFH.
> For our full service clinics and the main hospitals the notification went out in May that July 1 was the return to the office date.


so how did it go?  Mass exodus?  or did people come back?


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## kingslug (Jul 8, 2021)

thebigo said:


> I am curious if this is a perception or verifiable. Do you use document control? Does doc control keep metrics?


um...no...one guy approves...everything.


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## 2Planker (Jul 8, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> so how did it go?  Mass exodus?  or did people come back?



Same for us. Notification was May 1 for full staff return on July 1.

 About 15% have resigned, another 15% took last/this week as vacation and we expect many of them to give notice as soon as they're back or before.

So overall we'll loose 25-30%


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## kingslug (Jul 8, 2021)

I find this amazing...not that I like coming in to work one bit...but I have to contend with: shootings, stabbings, random attacks from homeless...and NYC sux in general...but I've been going in every day. This could change though.


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## NYDB (Jul 8, 2021)

Yeah. 30% I am surprised.   Is everyone just going to become ski bums?  Not that I am jealous or anything.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I find this amazing...not that I like coming in to work one bit...but I have to contend with: shootings, stabbings, random attacks from homeless...and NYC sux in general...but I've been going in every day. This could change though.


geez, where is your office?  sounds horrible.  My office is in the Bronx.  Unchanged since the pandemic.  no apparent increase in crime or homelessness here.


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## 2Planker (Jul 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I find this amazing...not that I like coming in to work one bit...but I have to contend with: shootings, stabbings, random attacks from homeless...and NYC sux in general...but I've been going in every day. This could change though.


Sounds like my old job as a Boston EMT in the Gang War/Crack years. 
 Working nights in Roxbury & Mattapan, a Bullet Proof vest was standard issue


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## kingslug (Jul 9, 2021)

Soho..a lot of them down here. Plus its the subways you have to watch. I take the 6..that line had a stabbing a day for a while. I'm amazed that people still sit there with there music on and stare at their phones..totally oblivious. 
The best was after a guy attacked a woman in Brooklynn..they interviewed some random woman about how she felt about it. "well I'll just have to turn my music down a bit when I walk around" holy...shit....


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 9, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Soho..a lot of them down here. Plus its the subways you have to watch. I take the 6..that line had a stabbing a day for a while. I'm amazed that people still sit there with there music on and stare at their phones..totally oblivious.
> The best was after a guy attacked a woman in Brooklynn..they interviewed some random woman about how she felt about it. "well I'll just have to turn my music down a bit when I walk around" holy...shit....


Ten years living in Manhattan....... worst subway story I can report?

1)  Dude drops his pants & takes a steamer right in the middle of the #2 train at rush hour. People fleeing the car like someone had a gun.

2) Honorable mention - The crack pipes I'd find at 7am rolling around the #1 train.


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## kingslug (Jul 12, 2021)

The trains are getting more crowded which appears to have cut down on the insanity for now.


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## Hawk (Jul 12, 2021)

I have worked in downtown in Boston for 30 years.  Took the train and subway for 15 years.  I have never in my life seen anything that remotely resembles this kind of behavior.   Just reinforces my belief that there are far more animals living in NYC.  No thanks.


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## 2Planker (Jul 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I have worked in downtown in Boston for 30 years.  Took the train and subway for 15 years.  I have never in my life seen anything that remotely resembles this kind of behavior.   Just reinforces my belief that there are far more animals living in NYC.  No thanks.


Obviously your are not riding the Orange Line west of Mass Ave
 Last week - Completely naked dude sleeping on the bench, covered in Urine, Feces and Vomit as commuters just walked by....


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## Hawk (Jul 12, 2021)

No you are right.  I have projects and Roxbury, Dorchester and Hyde Park but only have taken the orange line a few times down that end.  I live on the north shore so it is the commuter rail or orange from Malden/Melrose or the Blue line from Revere.

Actually for the last 10 years I negotiated a parking spot so I drive.  Covid was great.  30 minute commute door to door.  But I can feel the pulse picking up.  Soon it will be back to normal.


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## 2Planker (Jul 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> No you are right.  I have projects and Roxbury, Dorchester and Hyde Park but only have taken the orange line a few times down that end.  I live on the north shore so it is the commuter rail or orange from Malden/Melrose or the Blue line from Revere.
> 
> Actually for the last 10 years I negotiated a parking spot so I drive.  Covid was great.  30 minute commute door to door.  But I can feel the pulse picking up.  Soon it will be back to normal.


Same here, North shore to Theatre district commute is almost back to an hour.
Last spring/summer It was less than 20mins


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## KustyTheKlown (Jul 12, 2021)

kingslug said:


> I find this amazing...not that I like coming in to work one bit...but I have to contend with: shootings, stabbings, random attacks from homeless...and NYC sux in general...but I've been going in every day. This could change though.



don't be dramatic. you aren't getting shot, stabbed, or attacked by homeless on your rush hour commutes to manhattan. the 'death of nyc' narrative is really fuckin overblown.


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## kingslug (Jul 14, 2021)

A homeless guy stabbing a woman on the platform in the middle of the day isn't dramatic. I take the 510 train to Grand Central..thats a little before rush hour...shootouts in the middle of the day near Times square...https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/27/us/nyc-times-square-shooting/index.html
I'm here every day...its nuts. Our Mayor has let the place go to shit..not supporting cops was a really great idea..can't wait till this A hole is gone and hope the next one is better.


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## HowieT2 (Jul 14, 2021)

kingslug said:


> A homeless guy stabbing a woman on the platform in the middle of the day isn't dramatic. I take the 510 train to Grand Central..thats a little before rush hour...shootouts in the middle of the day near Times square...https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/27/us/nyc-times-square-shooting/index.html
> I'm here every day...its nuts. Our Mayor has let the place go to shit..not supporting cops was a really great idea..can't wait till this A hole is gone and hope the next one is better.


I'm here everyday too.  Your apocalyptic description of NYC doesnt comport with reality.  Has crime increased since before the pandemic? absolutely.  Not just in NYC, but everywhere.  Crime in NYC remains lower than most other us cities on a per capita basis. The homeless problem has also increased, exascerbated by moving large numbers into vacant hotels in manhattan.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm here everyday too.  Your apocalyptic description of NYC doesnt comport with reality.  Has crime increased since before the pandemic? absolutely.  Not just in NYC, but everywhere.  Crime in NYC remains lower than most other us cities on a per capita basis. The homeless problem has also increased, exascerbated by moving large numbers into vacant hotels in manhattan.



It will be interesting to see how long it takes NYC tourism to return to it record highs of 2019.  We used to visit NYC from time to time but probably will never again.  for us - not because of all the negative stuff but I find nature to be more appealing than concrete.  NYC got hit hard last year and it is not recovering as quickly as expected.


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## 2Planker (Jul 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm here everyday too.  Your apocalyptic description of NYC doesnt comport with reality.  Has crime increased since before the pandemic? absolutely.  Not just in NYC, but everywhere.  Crime in NYC remains lower than most other us cities on a per capita basis. The homeless problem has also increased, exascerbated by moving large numbers into vacant hotels in manhattan.


In Boston many hotels just rented floors to the colleges as Covid+ quarantine sites.
Security on the floor 24/7 to make sure no one left their room.


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## kingslug (Jul 14, 2021)

Tide of violent transit crime in NYC appears to be receding
					

Crime in the subways skyrocketed last month.  But over the past two weeks, the number of violent assaults is down by more than 50%.




					abc7ny.com
				



as I said..more people..more cops..its getting better.


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## mikec142 (Jul 14, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> NYC got hit hard last year and it is not recovering as quickly as expected.


I guess this depends on what you mean by recovering.  Traffic is back to terrible level.  Restaurants are absolutely packed.  Stores are mobbed.  I took NJT and the NY Subway for the first time in a long time.  Both packed.

That said, my office is still somewhat of a graveyard.


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## mikec142 (Jul 14, 2021)

HowieT2 said:


> I'm here everyday too.  Your apocalyptic description of NYC doesnt comport with reality.  Has crime increased since before the pandemic? absolutely.  Not just in NYC, but everywhere.  Crime in NYC remains lower than most other us cities on a per capita basis. The homeless problem has also increased, exascerbated by moving large numbers into vacant hotels in manhattan.


Yeah...I don't see it either.  Restaurants, bars, stores, transit are all packed.  I will say that midtown after hours is a bit bizarre.  But Gramercy, Soho, E&W Village, Tribeca are mobbed with (positive) activity.  We met friends for dinner last night in Soho (not sure if you can actually call it Soho...Ludlow a half block south of Houston) and it was almost impossible to find street parking + the restaurant was packed.

As we were leaving, we were chatting with our friends on the street corner while they waited for their Uber.  There was a car blocking other cars from turning onto Ludlow from Houston.  Of course there was the resulting cacophony of car horns followed by a guy rolling down his window and yelling "move your car you a$$hole!"  I just turned to my friends, smiled, and said, "New York is back!"


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 14, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I guess this depends on what you mean by recovering.  Traffic is back to terrible level.  Restaurants are absolutely packed.  Stores are mobbed.  I took NJT and the NY Subway for the first time in a long time.  Both packed.
> 
> That said, my office is still somewhat of a graveyard.



Restaurants are packed everywhere - in fact many are still a bit hand cuffed due to staffing shortages.  I have also read that outdorr places like central park and others open spaces are places that people are flocking to.

According to the Mayor and Bloomberg news - The city expects domestic tourism to rebound by 2023 and total tourists to surpass the pre-pandemic level of 66.6 million visitors a year by 2024.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 14, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> NYC got hit hard last year and it is not recovering as quickly as expected.


Probably never going to either.  Hundreds of thousands have left the state already.  That number increases daily


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## mikec142 (Jul 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Probably never going to either.  Hundreds of thousands have left the state already.  That number increases daily


Hundreds of thousands?  That sounds like a lot.  Could be true, I have no idea.  

That said.  Fine.  An equal amount of people will flow into NYC.  Hopefully the inflow will bring creative entrepreneurial types who will bring needed innovation and change.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 14, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> Hundreds of thousands?  That sounds like a lot.  Could be true, I have no idea.
> 
> That said.  Fine.  An equal amount of people will flow into NYC.  Hopefully the inflow will bring creative entrepreneurial types who will bring needed innovation and change.


Not since the start of the pandemic but over the last few years the total state population is down quite a bit.  NY is going to be losing a congressional seat as a result. 

I don't think many businesses will be itching to start in New York with the regulations and taxes


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## ss20 (Jul 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Not since the start of the pandemic but over the last few years the total state population is down quite a bit.  NY is going to be losing a congressional seat as a result.
> 
> I don't think many businesses will be itching to start in New York with the regulations and taxes



Correct...population is flat or on a slow decline depending on what you look at.  NY has turned into California-lite.  Expensive to live in and people are realizing there's better options out there.  WFH, rising crime, and stupid high taxes are killing the state.  

I love the rural parts of NY...especially the upper Route 22 corridor.  But the poverty all over the state is just horrific.


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## abc (Jul 14, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> I don't think many businesses will be itching to start in New York with the regulations and taxes


I guess Google, Amazon and a few tech firms didn't read that mamo!


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## abc (Jul 14, 2021)

ss20 said:


> NY has turned into California-lite. Expensive to live in and people are realizing there's better options out there.


I'm not sure it's not the other way around. California is NY-lite. 

New York has always been expensive! But there're strong incentive to be in New York. Or California. 

The question really is, did California/NY lost that "special something". If it still have "it", people will keep flogging there despite the high cost of living.


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## icecoast1 (Jul 14, 2021)

abc said:


> I guess Google, Amazon and a few tech firms didn't read that mamo!


Not sure it matters much for them, not like they won't be exploiting some loophole to get out of paying taxes anyway.


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## Smellytele (Jul 14, 2021)

abc said:


> I guess Google, Amazon and a few tech firms didn't get the mamo.





abc said:


> Not sure it matters much for them, not like they won't be exploiting some loophole to get out of paying taxes anyway.


and the main offices aren’t in NY


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## skef (Jul 15, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> and the main offices aren’t in NY


This is totally the “Vermont Skier Visits Down Significantly Due to COVID-19” content I came here for!


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## Geoff (Jul 15, 2021)

skef said:


> This is totally the “Vermont Skier Visits Down Significantly Due to COVID-19” content I came here for!


Yep.  It’s now the “Nobody goes to NYC because it’s too crowded” thread.


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## skiur (Jul 15, 2021)

Welcome to a skiing forum in the summer.  At least there is something going on.


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## ss20 (Jul 15, 2021)

skiur said:


> Welcome to a skiing forum in the summer.  At least there is something going on.



Whenever we can hit more than 10 posts a day in the summer I'm happy.  It's fun interacting with the same "core" of people... you don't get that in the winter when there's 15 threads to check-in on each day.


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## 180 (Jul 15, 2021)

As a regular NYC commuter on Metro North for over 25 years and as someone who commuted the whole pandemic, I can say:
- I measure the strength of the recovery by my barber who says its still way down
- still missing most of the office workers in the towers
- the city will bounce back, but Deblasio set us back many years
- homeless are disrupted and living all over, but no more annoying than usual
- its getting busier every day
- still many shuttered restaurants and storefronts
- still cheap hotel rates a sure sign things are slow
- many folks are resisting the call from management to get back in the office


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## HowieT2 (Jul 15, 2021)

this whole "nyc is a dying hell hole" is a myth.  serves some peoples political beliefs.


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## abc (Jul 15, 2021)

180 said:


> many folks are resisting the call from management to get back in the office


Nobody particularly LIKE commuting, whether it’s by car or by train. In the past, there’s no alternative. There is now. So that’s a really big worry for NYC. 

When I worked in the office in NYC, I rarely talk to anyone. They all email or ping each other. And people routinely work from home on Friday for example. But there’s a difference. Before, WFH is taken as a day to run errands in between answering emails.  During the pandemic however, everyone is WFH, everyday. So no more errands, no more excuses for not being instantly available, etc. People found out they can actually do real work from home almost as efficiently as in the office! 

Managements are talking about up to 25% of their workers will either retire or change jobs to NOT coming into the office!  That’s the concern for the city, if 20-25% of the office workers stop coming into the city everyday, it’s going to have a cascading effect on the business.


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## kingslug (Jul 15, 2021)

There was a spree of attacks for a while..looks to be gang related...but its getting more crowded by the day..my train is packed and people are starting to come back to the building...26 stores vacant on Bway near me...thats not great. Including 2 of ours.
As far as VT..havent been in a while..


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## HowieT2 (Jul 15, 2021)

kingslug said:


> There was a spree of attacks for a while..looks to be gang related...but its getting more crowded by the day..my train is packed and people are starting to come back to the building...26 stores vacant on Bway near me...thats not great. Including 2 of ours.
> As far as VT..havent been in a while..


Not just nyc but everywhere.  civil unrest in the US last summer, in south africa and cuba now.  unruly passengers on airplanes are up.  fireworks incidents have increased dramatically.  billions of people worldwide feeling the psychological effects of the pandemic and lockdowns. it will take time to adjust to a changed world.
NYC in particular is dealing with loss of demand from office workers and tourists.  those businesses dependent on those customers are in a tough spot.  But I think we are already seeing the markets adapting.


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## kingslug (Jul 15, 2021)

Hope so..I'm stuck here for a few more years.


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## urungus (Jul 15, 2021)

Ski NH: Pandemic-fueled demand upped season visits
					

EAST MADISON — Ski NH hosted its annual business meeting and a beachside soiree event last Wednesday at King Pine Ski Area & Purity Spring Resort. About 70 people attended




					www.conwaydailysun.com
				




NH alpine ski visits up 5% year over year, but 3% below 10 year average … how does that compare to the final tally from Vermont ?


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## abc (Jul 16, 2021)

Geoff said:


> Yep.  It’s now the “Nobody goes to NYC because it’s too crowded” thread.


Just a freak timing coincidence, about California (San Francisco, San Jose)
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Just a freak timing coincidence, about California (San Francisco, San Jose)
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage



links that require subscriptions - there seem to be lots of them!


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## abc (Jul 16, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> links that require subscriptions - there seem to be lots of them!


I finished reading (most of) it before the subscription banner got big enough to cover up the whole screen.  

Going to the "private" mode maybe another way to read these things.


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## Geoff (Jul 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Just a freak timing coincidence, about California (San Francisco, San Jose)
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/15/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


I have a NY Times subscription.  I always make the point that intellectual property creation is invariably a group activity and very much ad hoc.   You grab a few people and work through problems on the whiteboard.  You completely lose that telecommuting 100% of the time.  There are lots of jobs you can do 100% remote but the jobs that create the most value in the Bay Area aren’t like that.  Half time hybrid would probably work if everyone is there on the same days.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 17, 2021)

urungus said:


> Ski NH: Pandemic-fueled demand upped season visits
> 
> 
> EAST MADISON — Ski NH hosted its annual business meeting and a beachside soiree event last Wednesday at King Pine Ski Area & Purity Spring Resort. About 70 people attended
> ...


The resorts all shut down in March of 2020.  That 5% growth is likely due to the normal length 2021 season

Certainly felt busier though


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 17, 2021)

Pretty much what we all expected.
 NH Less restrictions lead to more skier visits.
 VT's self imposed increased rules lead to less....


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## abc (Jul 17, 2021)

Geoff said:


> I have a NY Times subscription.  I always make the point that intellectual property creation is invariably a group activity and very much ad hoc.   You grab a few people and work through problems on the whiteboard.  *You completely lose that telecommuting 100% of the time.  *


I disagree.

If we look back 20 years, a lot of what we take for granted today was considered impossible back then because 1) the technology wasn't mature and, 2) people aren't used to it so not using it to their full potential.

A lot of the "whiteboarding" can be done online, quite effectively. Yes, it FEELS different, but only to those of us grow up using an actual whiteboard. The youngsters of today are far more comfortable "whiteboarding" electronically!

I work with younger folks at my job (IT). I'm the one who's struggling to "feel comfortable" with my colleagues launching into extensive discussions over the multiple online tools they seemingly randomly choose according to the latest fashion. But I have to confess, once I got over the initial confusion, I found communication flows quite freely and effectively.

There're also advantage of being in front of the screen during those discussions. You can view actual codes with a flick of a mouse!

It's definitely not lose it 100%. It does change the mode of working though. Reality is majority of working age people hasn't quite got used to it, even after a year and half of WFH.


----------



## machski (Jul 17, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The resorts all shut down in March of 2020.  That 5% growth is likely due to the normal length 2021 season
> 
> Certainly felt busier though


All of my NH ski days were midweek and it definitely felt busier then (Heck, Loon I was waiting 30 minutes at times for North and Kanc midweeks!).  I avoided weekends so I wonder if those were quieter than normal.


----------



## abc (Jul 17, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The resorts all shut down in March of 2020. That 5% growth is likely due to the normal length 2021 season


Sounds about right, 3% below 10 year average. 

But of course, the headline would prefer to play up the 5% over previous year part.  



machski said:


> I avoided weekends so I wonder if those were quieter than normal.


I suspect it's less  people than "normal", which "normal" could mean a total madhouse. 

The reservation have a cap on the total visit. However, since chairs aren't filled, the wait were equally long from what I heard. 

So overall, it's less visitor but just as bad lift line?


----------



## gregnye (Jul 17, 2021)

I always find it funny when managers use the "I need people back in the office, I can't trust my employees at home" excuse. Like wait a minute, *if you can't trust your own employees, and you are the manager, then WHY ARE YOU EMPLOYING THEM*?????????? A manager's one job is to hire and fire people. *You should be able to trust them enough to work remote. If you can't trust them, then fire them!*

What it comes down to though is that the U.S. is currently in the class war of the 1% versus everyone else. The 1% saw how much money everyone else earned/saved during the pandemic working remotely, and was like "that won't do, let's increase the price of everything and get everyone back in the office ASAP. They are slaves to our business, we can't have them have nice things".

I earned and saved the most money I've ever saved in 2020. Didn't have to pay much for gas, didn't have to pay for car repairs. *Also I was able to work 2 jobs working from home.* *And before people say "that's not fair to your employer" I say "who cares? I was getting satisfactory work done at both places--so why not work 2 remote jobs? In fact I was the remaining employee after they laid off 4 other people. So I was doing the work of 5 people and still was able to do an entire other job from home at the same time. *That's how much downtime commuting + sitting in an office pretending to look busy equates to.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 17, 2021)

gregnye said:


> I always find it funny when managers use the "I need people back in the office, I can't trust my employees at home" excuse. Like wait a minute, *if you can't trust your own employees, and you are the manager, then WHY ARE YOU EMPLOYING THEM*?????????? A manager's one job is to hire and fire people. *You should be able to trust them enough to work remote. If you can't trust them, then fire them!*
> 
> What it comes down to though is that the U.S. is currently in the class war of the 1% versus everyone else. The 1% saw how much money everyone else earned/saved during the pandemic working remotely, and was like "that won't do, let's increase the price of everything and get everyone back in the office ASAP. They are slaves to our business, we can't have them have nice things".
> 
> I earned and saved the most money I've ever saved in 2020. Didn't have to pay much for gas, didn't have to pay for car repairs. *Also I was able to work 2 jobs working from home.* *And before people say "that's not fair to your employer" I say "who cares? I was getting satisfactory work done at both places--so why not work 2 remote jobs? In fact I was the remaining employee after they laid off 4 other people. So I was doing the work of 5 people and still was able to do an entire other job from home at the same time. *That's how much downtime commuting + sitting in an office pretending to look busy equates to.



Funny for us it was the opposite, we traveled more during covid than normal.  We both worked from home and found that we could work from anywhere and as a result were on the move many times.  We took on a stay outside attitude which was a focus for us.  Our spending shifted from commuting to getting out somewhere.  We also felt compelled to support the restaurant industry and did that a lot.  We did take advantaged of depressed stocks though!  There was a stint where we worked from our offices during the summer which was nice to be honest but the second wave hit and it was back to being home even though we had minimal issues at our office.


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## Hawk (Jul 19, 2021)

In my position I do not manage the hiring and firing of people.  I manage projects with the people that I am given.  The people that are in work with me are doing an excellent job.  The people working from home are mostly letting me down.  I will agree that you do save more money working from home but the productivity has gone down in my case.  The other thing is that computer only based work does not make up all jobs and there are specific industries that this WFH model fails.  That would be me.


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## abc (Jul 19, 2021)

Hawk said:


> In my position I do not manage the hiring and firing of people. I manage projects with the people that I am given. The people that are in work with me are doing an excellent job. The people working from home are mostly letting me down.


That's a difficult position for a manager to be in if you can't fire people who are not getting the work done. 

Are you sure those same people who've been "letting your down" will not be so if they work in the office?


----------



## Hawk (Jul 19, 2021)

yes


----------



## abc (Jul 19, 2021)

In that case, why not call them back into the office? 

They may choose to resign. Then you get to hire someone else who could get the work done, whether in office or out.


----------



## mikec142 (Jul 19, 2021)

abc said:


> In that case, why not call them back into the office?
> 
> They may choose to resign. Then you get to hire someone else who could get the work done, whether in office or out.


I don't know what kind of company Hawk works for, but there are a ton of issues around calling folks back to the office.  Not so easy to just call a few back.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Probably never going to either.  Hundreds of thousands have left the state already.  That number increases daily



If I left through my back door now, I could be in midtown Manhattan in less than an hour.  I havent been there in at least 2.5 years.  Lived there for about 10 years, that was enough.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2021)

kingslug said:


> As far as VT..havent been in a while..



Just got back, first time in a year.  The key takeaway is here everything's pretty much back to normal, but in Vermont most every store I was in still had plexiglass barriers & employees wearing masks even though they're likely vaccinated.  Church restrictions lifted, but were a few months behind Jersey as well.  Way more people in stores with masks too even though it's the most vaccinated state in all of America.  It seems a mix of fear, better safe than sorry cautiousness, and performance art.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 19, 2021)

Some fantastic news related to this conversation, last week I received final approval to be a fully WFH employee, which never would have happened if not for this awful pandemic.  It needed 5 approvals (boss, bosses boss, Finance director, CFO, and HR) so it wasn't a sure thing as it was pretty clear they didn't want everyone putting in for FT WFH.

Pretty psyched about this & what it potentially means.  I will say it's not all sunshine, kittens, and roses though, after working from home for 1 year & 4 months now, I will say that I do miss some of my coworkers, but the biggest thing is life can become a bit Groundhog Day'ish if you don't intentionally break things up.  Other than that, it's pretty flipping splendid.


----------



## urungus (Jul 19, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Some fantastic news related to this conversation, last week I received final approval to be a fully WFH employee, which never would have happened if not for this awful pandemic.  It needed 5 approvals (boss, bosses boss, Finance director, CFO, and HR) so it wasn't a sure thing as it was pretty clear they didn't want everyone putting in for FT WFH.
> 
> Pretty psyched about this & what it potentially means.  I will say it's not all sunshine, kittens, and roses though, after working from home for 1 year & 4 months now, I will say that I do miss some of my coworkers, but the biggest thing is life can become a bit Groundhog Day'ish if you don't intentionally break things up.  Other than that, it's pretty flipping splendid.


Congrats.  Have you considered moving to ski country ?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2021)

urungus said:


> Congrats.  Have you considered moving to ski country ?



Yes.  We've talked about it for a few years now, but have been getting far more serious lately.  In fact, we're leaving on a "fact finding & discovery" trip out west next month not so much as a vacation, but to specifically decide if we move to ski country or stay in the east.  We've already made one big decision that Jersey is out, so if we do stay in the east we'll hop over the Delaware.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 20, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Just got back, first time in a year.  The key takeaway is here everything's pretty much back to normal, but in Vermont most every store I was in still had plexiglass barriers & employees wearing masks even though they're likely vaccinated.  Church restrictions lifted, but were a few months behind Jersey as well.  Way more people in stores with masks too even though it's the most vaccinated state in all of America.  It seems a mix of fear, better safe than sorry cautiousness, and performance art.


Not quite...
 All of New England w/ the exception of NH  have higher Vacc #'s than NJ.  Both for 1st Dose & Fully Vacc
 See Chart below - NJ ranks #7 for 1st dose &  #8 for Fully Vacc, behind all of New England & Maryland

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Not quite...
> All of New England w/ the exception of NH  have higher Vacc #'s than NJ.  Both for 1st Dose & Fully Vacc
> See Chart below - NJ ranks #7 for 1st dose &  #8 for Fully Vacc, behind all of New England & Maryland
> 
> https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/



Huh? What does NJ's vaccination numbers have to do with BG's post about what he experienced visiting VT? BG's point was that even though VT has the highest Vaccination rate, they were also being much more cautious than people in NJ with still wearing masks a lot.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 20, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Huh? What does NJ's vaccination numbers have to do with BG's post about what he experienced visiting VT? BG's point was that even though VT has the highest Vaccination rate, they were also being much more cautious than people in NJ with still wearing masks a lot.


He was claiming that NJ "was the most vaccinated  state in America"......
 NOT true, There are a bunch of states ahead of NJ including all six of the  NE states


----------



## mikec142 (Jul 20, 2021)

2Planker said:


> He was claiming that NJ "was the most vaccinated  state in America"......
> NOT true, There are a bunch of states ahead of NJ including all six of the  NE states


Pretty sure he was just stating that the behavior of Vermonters is a few months behind that of New Jerseyians.  In the form of still wearing masks, plexiglass barriers, etc.  Not in vaccination rate.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 20, 2021)

I still see plastic barriers all over PA.  Those may be here to stay. Probably better for store workers and wherever else they are installed anyways.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 20, 2021)

Yes I have been up there a bunch riding my bike.  There are some establishments that are very cautious.  Others not so much.  For instance I went to Flat Bread in Warren and the only people with masks were elderly and the wait staff.  Lots of blue, orange, light green and white plates in the parking lot.  I don't blame them.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 20, 2021)

2Planker said:


> He was claiming that NJ "was the most vaccinated  state in America"......
> NOT true, There are a bunch of states ahead of NJ including all six of the  NE states


No he wasn't. The "most vaccinated state in America" comment was related to Vermont, not NJ.



mikec142 said:


> Pretty sure he was just stating that the behavior of Vermonters is a few months behind that of New Jerseyians.  In the form of still wearing masks, plexiglass barriers, etc.  Not in vaccination rate.



Yea...that's the way I read it. VT is behind in terms of relaxing behavior _even though_ they're more vaccinated than NJ.


----------



## abc (Jul 20, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I still see plastic barriers all over PA.  Those may be here to stay. Probably better for store workers and wherever else they are installed anyways.


They're also good to help curb the spread of flu. 

I don't want to "go back" to the old normal. I want the best combination of old and new to be the "new normal" that we adapt to going forward. (we owe it to the dead to get some benefits for the rest of the society)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2021)

2Planker said:


> *He was claiming that NJ "was the most vaccinated  state in America"....*..
> NOT true, There are a bunch of states ahead of NJ including all six of the  NE states



Your reading comprehension failed you.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 20, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Lots of blue, orange, light green and white plates in the parking lot.  I don't blame them.



Blue = Connecticut
Orange = New York
White - Massachusetts (I'm guessing, though could be Maine too)

What's light green?  New Hampshire maybe....


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 21, 2021)

So I am amazed by the number of people who are walking alone outside and wearing a mask.  I was in a Dunkin Donuts waiting on food and I saw a couple seated wearing masks and talking it off when they took a bite or sip.  People are wearing masks in cars as well.  I think for some, the fear of death was so strongly placed in their heads by the governments Federal, State and Local.  Any talking points against it were stripped from social media right or not.  So they followed!


----------



## Hawk (Jul 21, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Blue = Connecticut
> Orange = New York
> White - Massachusetts (I'm guessing, though could be Maine too)
> 
> What's light green?  New Hampshire maybe....


Yup.  Flatbread also did not have diminished seating capacity like other places in the valley.


dblskifanatic said:


> So I am amazed by the number of people who are walking alone outside and wearing a mask.  I was in a Dunkin Donuts waiting on food and I saw a couple seated wearing masks and talking it off when they took a bite or sip.  People are wearing masks in cars as well.  I think for some, the fear of death was so strongly placed in their heads by the governments Federal, State and Local.  Any talking points against it were stripped from social media right or not.  So they followed!


In some cases it has nothing to do with blaming the government or media.  I have friends and family members that are total germaphobes and were on the verge of mask wearing before covid hit.  Some people are just scared to begin with and made there mind up to be careful.  I don't even take a second to think about why these people are that way.  They just are.  

I am not scared.  I wear a mask when I am inside and they ask.  I don't were a mask when I don't have to.  I am not going to blame anyone or take acceptation to people who chose to do so.  why be amazed.  Does it help to waste time thinking about it.  

You know what I am amazed with.  The amount of time that people have to reiterate, regurgitate, point out, examine what other do and don't do.  I don't have time for that.  I wish more people were like me and we could just discuss skiing on a ski forum.  I guess I am done with covid talk.  can you tell.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jul 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> You know what I am amazed with. The amount of time that people have to reiterate, regurgitate, point out, examine what other do and don't do. I don't have time for that. *I wish more people were like me and we could just discuss skiing on a ski forum.*



You couldn't make it one sentence without doing exactly what you were complaining about.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 21, 2021)

You are right.   I'm just talking in circles.  Listening to all this is driving me nuts I guess.  Point taken.


----------



## abc (Jul 21, 2021)

If only we have some skiing to talk about...


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Yup.  Flatbread also did not have diminished seating capacity like other places in the valley.
> 
> In some cases it has nothing to do with blaming the government or media.  I have friends and family members that are total germaphobes and were on the verge of mask wearing before covid hit.  Some people are just scared to begin with and made there mind up to be careful.  I don't even take a second to think about why these people are that way.  They just are.
> 
> ...



Ok amazed is probably a little strong - I really do not care but I see it and think about it for a brief second.  Just feel like the issue is beginning to raise its ugly head and wonder if covid will have its own cycle.  What will be the impact on skiing if it does?


----------



## abc (Jul 21, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I am amazed by the number of people who are walking alone outside and wearing a mask.  I was in a Dunkin Donuts waiting on food and I saw a couple seated wearing masks and talking it off when they took a bite or sip.





dblskifanatic said:


> Ok amazed is probably a little strong - I really do not care but I see it and think about it for a brief second.  Just feel like the issue is beginning to raise its ugly head and wonder if covid will have its own cycle.  What will be the impact on skiing if it does?


Amazed, curious, whatever. It's none of my business. Perhaps they, for whatever reason, could not be vaccinated? So they will forever be wearing masks. So what? It has zero negative health effect to others. And possibly even a tiny bit of positive too. 

I don't for a moment second guess other people's choice when it doesn't affect me. People want to drink in their own home, smoke weed, wear mask or not, it's their choice. I'm not even going to waste any brain cell to think about it. Am I the least bit curious? Yeah, but only if they feel like discussing with others, I'll entertain them. Other than that, I have zero interest in their choices.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 21, 2021)

Hawk said:


> You know what I am amazed with.  The amount of time that people have to reiterate, regurgitate, point out, examine what other do and don't do.  I don't have time for that.  I wish more people were like me and we could just discuss skiing on a ski forum.  I guess I am done with covid talk.  can you tell.


Pretty much sums it up for me as well.


----------



## kingslug (Jul 22, 2021)

Me too...


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 22, 2021)

abc said:


> Amazed, curious, whatever. It's none of my business. Perhaps they, for whatever reason, could not be vaccinated? So they will forever be wearing masks. So what? It has zero negative health effect to others. And possibly even a tiny bit of positive too.
> 
> I don't for a moment second guess other people's choice when it doesn't affect me. People want to drink in their own home, smoke weed, wear mask or not, it's their choice. I'm not even going to waste any brain cell to think about it. Am I the least bit curious? Yeah, but only if they feel like discussing with others, I'll entertain them. Other than that, I have zero interest in their choices.



You are right - it is their business and I would never tell anyone otherwise.  I wonder about culture shifts - the whys and the hows.  Sometimes saying it is none of my business results in changes that I did not want - at work, in communities, in our country.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 22, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> You are right - it is their business and I would never tell anyone otherwise.  I wonder about culture shifts - the whys and the hows.  Sometimes saying it is none of my business results in changes that I did not want - at work, in communities, in our country.


Change is inevitable it's the only thing that never changes. 

And it's the one thing people seem to fight more than anything.  Go with the flow is my motto.


----------



## abc (Jul 22, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Sometimes saying it is none of my business results in changes that I did not want - at work, in communities, in our country.


There's a difference between *saying* it's none of your business when it in fact has impact on you. In that case, you should care.

But in this case, I struggle to find other people wearing mask has ANY undesirable impact on me.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> So I am amazed by the number of people who are walking alone outside and wearing a mask.



1/2 of them are legitimately afraid & uneducated.
1/2 of them are self-righteous performance artists.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> 1/2 of them are legitimately afraid & uneducated.
> 1/2 of them are self-righteous performance artists.


And you, as always, continue to be a 100% stereotyping, judgmental prick.  It never changes with you.

Everything is binary, black and white in your world view.  Common conservative theme BTW. 

I think you are on the right path though with your WFH, rural PA, hermit seeking life.  If your in person interactions are half as awkward as what you portray online, social settings must be absolutely miserable for you.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 23, 2021)

abc said:


> There's a difference between *saying* it's none of your business when it in fact has impact on you. In that case, you should care.
> 
> But in this case, I struggle to find other people wearing mask has ANY undesirable impact on me.



Mask wearing may seem small but politicians will leverage it,  I would prefer broader outreach and understanding as to why the fear is so amped or why vaccinations are not happening.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Mask wearing may seem small but politicians will leverage it,  I would prefer broader outreach and understanding as to why the fear is so amped or why vaccinations are not happening.



You don't know each individuals personal situation in regards to still wearing a mask.   They could be vaccinated, but be immunocompromised and choose to wear a mask still for that reason.  My sister in-law has cancer and does so because her immune system is shot from the chemo.   Others can be concerned about their unvaccinated children under the age of 12.  

I just don't understand why some people care so much about what others choose to do in exercising their own caution.  It has zero impact on your life.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 23, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You don't know each individuals personal situation in regards to still wearing a mask.   They could be vaccinated, but be immunocompromised and choose to wear a mask still for that reason.  My sister in-law has cancer and does so because her immune system is shot from the chemo.   Others can be concerned about their unvaccinated children under the age of 12.
> 
> I just don't understand why some people care so much about what others choose to do in exercising their own caution.  It has zero impact on your life.



I agree with what you are saying DHS, I just wish that it was a 2 way street on this as there is certainly some shaming from the mask wearing crew against the non mask wearing crew in some instances, just as there is some shaming from the non mask wearing crew against the mask wearing crew in some cases.

If I see someone say in the grocery store wearing a mask, I don't think twice about it (or their reasoning for doing so - unless of course they're also still wearing gloves!! No those folks I do wonder about a bit   ) and I would hope that those mask wearers don't think twice about me not wearing a mask in the grocery store.

Everyone one has the ability (still at least) to make their own decisions about this based on their own situation and personal degree of risk that ther are, or aren't, comfortable with, and for those whose personal risk comfort level is lower than others, there should be some degree to which that/those person(s) who are more risk averse, do take some extra steps of their own doing, rather than just expect, and in some cases almsot demand, that those around them cater to their demands. That I think is the big issue at hand in the topic, how one side handles the difference of opinion of the other side, and in an adult way hopefully


----------



## mikec142 (Jul 23, 2021)

I'm still WFH but I anticipate commuting NYC again after Labor Day.  I'm fully vaxxed.  

That said, I will be giving some thought to wearing a mask while on mass transit.  I take a (normally) crowded, 20+ minute ride on the PATH train.  Even after Covid (if there ever is an after covid) I will be giving some thought to mask wearing while commuting in the future.  Would be nice to go through cold and flu season unscathed. Or allergy season with a better result.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I agree with what you are saying DHS, I just wish that it was a 2 way street on this as there is certainly some shaming from the mask wearing crew against the non mask wearing crew in some instances, just as there is some shaming from the non mask wearing crew against the mask wearing crew in some cases.
> 
> If I see someone say in the grocery store wearing a mask, I don't think twice about it (or their reasoning for doing so - unless of course they're also still wearing gloves!! No those folks I do wonder about a bit   ) and I would hope that those mask wearers don't think twice about me not wearing a mask in the grocery store.
> 
> Everyone one has the ability (still at least) to make their own decisions about this based on their own situation and personal degree of risk that ther are, or aren't, comfortable with, and for those whose personal risk comfort level is lower than others, there should be some degree to which that/those person(s) who are more risk averse, do take some extra steps of their own doing, rather than just expect, and in some cases almsot demand, that those around them cater to their demands. That I think is the big issue at hand in the topic, how one side handles the difference of opinion of the other side, and in an adult way hopefully



What mask shaming are you experiencing or reading about occurring from those folks still wearing masks against those who are not since the mandates have been lifted?

I don't deny it might be occurring, but the occurrences are miniscule as those folks know they don't have a leg to stand on in public as there is no longer a mandate.   They can certainly tell folks to wear a mask in their home or place of business, but nothing beyond that.   

They can opine that people should still wear them, but again, there is no mandate.  Should one come back in place in the interest of public health, even for those who are vacinated, I have no problem following those guidelines.  It's really not that big of a deal.  I still have to wear one at work in hospitals and I'm sure you do too as a dentist.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jul 23, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm still WFH but I anticipate commuting NYC again after Labor Day.  I'm fully vaxxed.
> 
> That said, I will be giving some thought to wearing a mask while on mass transit.  I take a (normally) crowded, 20+ minute ride on the PATH train.  Even after Covid (if there ever is an after covid) I will be giving some thought to mask wearing while commuting in the future.  Would be nice to go through cold and flu season unscathed. Or allergy season with a better result.



you are still expected to mask on the path and nyc subway. there is ample signage, and its basic courtesy in a very tightly packed space on the trains. i started riding the subway and the path again in the past month or two. mask compliance during rush hours is near 100%. on the weekends its been more spotty in my experience, but the trains are also less crowded. on pride sunday the trains were just full of drunks. it was hot and the entire city was drunk. no one was masking on the trains or stations.

i work in jersey city so reverse commute against the tide of jersey city residents who work in nyc. there are a lot of asian folks in jersey city. they were masking for months prior to covid being 'real' in america.


----------



## Domeskier (Jul 23, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm still WFH but I anticipate commuting NYC again after Labor Day.  I'm fully vaxxed.
> 
> That said, I will be giving some thought to wearing a mask while on mass transit.  I take a (normally) crowded, 20+ minute ride on the PATH train.  Even after Covid (if there ever is an after covid) I will be giving some thought to mask wearing while commuting in the future.  Would be nice to go through cold and flu season unscathed. Or allergy season with a better result.


Masks are still required in the NYC subway and on Path trains.  Most riders comply.  I see no reason to stop.  The subway is disgusting.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you are still expected to mask on the path and nyc subway. there is ample signage, and its basic courtesy in a very tightly packed space on the trains. i started riding the subway and the path again in the past month or two. mask compliance during rush hours is near 100%. on the weekends its been more spotty in my experience, but the trains are also less crowded. on pride sunday the trains were just full of drunks. it was hot and the entire city was drunk. no one was masking on the trains or stations.
> 
> i work in jersey city so reverse commute against the tide of jersey city residents who work in nyc. there are a lot of asian folks in jersey city. they were masking for months prior to covid being 'real' in america.


I work in Boston's Chinatown.
People here have been wearing masks for 10+ years, and will continue to do so long after Covid is over.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> And you, as always, continue to be a 100% stereotyping, judgmental prick.  It never changes with you.
> 
> Everything is binary, black and white in your world view.  Common conservative theme BTW.
> 
> I think you are on the right path though with your WFH, rural PA, hermit seeking life.  If your in person interactions are half as awkward as what you portray online, social settings must be absolutely miserable for you.



^ DHS drinking and posting at night (again).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm still WFH but I anticipate commuting NYC again after Labor Day.  I'm fully vaxxed.
> 
> That said,* I will be giving some thought to wearing a mask while on mass transit.  I take a (normally) crowded, 20+ minute ride on the PATH train. *



I would 100% wear a mask if I took the PATH.

The Delta variant's breakthrough ability is unfortunately impressive, and I believe we're going to find out in future studies it's greater than what initial studies are showing, simply from the anecdotal evidence piling up of numerous multiple infection events among fully vaxxed individuals, which simply in an Occam's Razor manner suggest to me that it's statistically more aggressive than we're currently being led to believe.  I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen enough that I took a lot of money off the table last week as I think the threat of Delta is generally being underappreciated.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> *The subway is disgusting.*



There are things I've seen on the New York subway that I will carry with me for life.  That which cannot be forgotten.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> ^ DHS drinking and posting at night (again).


Just calling it like I see it BG.  I've seen you throw out asshole stereotypes of all kinds over the years here.  From bashing the appearance of VT women to now people still wearing a mask, to everything in between.   Really lame and almost always uncalled for.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Just calling it like I see it BG.  I've seen you throw out asshole *stereotypes *of all kinds over the years here.



And what pray tell "stereotype" could this possibly fall under?   For sheer comedy, dont dodge this question like you normally would.

 People riding a bike alone, hiking alone, or walking completely alone in the great outdoors while wearing a mask like that poster noted, are either really scared, uneducated about covid science, or self-righteous performance artists.

You are the nastiest person on the internet & wholly lacking in self-awareness.  God only knows how much money you've cost Greg over the years from all the people whose last post here states that you are literally the reason they're leaving Alpinezone (not that I've much sympathy given he's absent & has no clue what's going on here).

And yeah, you were drunk once again given your angry, vitriolic, nasty reply had absolutely nothing to do with the post I was replying to.  I think you are on the right path though given you spend most of your job driving a car all over - the fewer people who deal with you during the day the better.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> And what pray tell "stereotype" could this possibly fall under?   For sheer comedy, dont dodge this question like you normally would.
> 
> People riding a bike alone, hiking alone, or walking completely alone in the great outdoors while wearing a mask like that poster noted, are either really scared, uneducated about covid science, or self-righteous performance artists.
> 
> ...



Ok cupcake

A. Greg hasn't owned this website in almost a decade

B. Link me up one poster who "left the boards forever because of that meany deadheadskier"? . Maybe you should?  Don't think much of your constant braggadocios commentary would be missed.

Thanks for your concern about my ability to successfully navigate business relationships, but I'm doing just fine over here.  I just don't pull punches in online discourse with losers like you who artificially inflate who they are.  You're like the Donald Trump of internet characters.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Ok cupcake
> 
> A. Greg hasn't owned this website in almost a decade
> 
> ...



Precisely as I predicted in #523.

DHS flips over the checkers board & runs away like a little boy, but not before adding more ugliness, nastiness & vitriol.

All too predictable.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Precisely as I predicted.
> 
> DHS flips over the checkers board & runs away like a little boy, but not before adding more ugliness, nastiness & vitriol.
> 
> All too predictable.



Didn't want to let you down pumpkin!  Lord knows you thrive on patting that back of yours. You're welcome


----------



## ss20 (Jul 25, 2021)

You're both interesting fellows and I'd love to have a beer with each of you (individually).  

This website can get pretty opinionated but at the end of the day there's almost no one on here that I wouldn't ski with for a day.


----------



## raisingarizona (Jul 25, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Change is inevitable it's the only thing that never changes.
> 
> And it's the one thing people seem to fight more than anything.  Go with the flow is my motto.


Indeed. The human brain generally hates change.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I would 100% wear a mask if I took the PATH.
> 
> The Delta variant's breakthrough ability is unfortunately impressive, and I believe we're going to find out in future studies it's greater than what initial studies are showing, simply from the anecdotal evidence piling up of numerous multiple infection events among fully vaxxed individuals, which simply in an Occam's Razor manner suggest to me that it's statistically more aggressive than we're currently being led to believe.  I hope I'm wrong, but I've seen enough that I took a lot of money off the table last week as I think the threat of Delta is generally being underappreciated.



Outbreak of 500+ in Provincetown.  Ten percent were tested for variant  - 53 and were all delta variant.  Many were vaccinated,  Our son's wedding planner is now positive and had the Pfizer vaccine.  I think we are only seeing the beginning.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 26, 2021)

I know.  That is great.  I am riding in the Pan Mass Challenge next weekend and the end point for the event is in Provincetown.  We are staying for 2 nights.  I guess diner reservations might interesting.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> *Outbreak of 500+ in Provincetown.  *Ten percent were tested for variant  - 53 and were all delta variant.  *Many were vaccinated, * Our son's wedding planner is now positive and had the Pfizer vaccine.  I think we are only seeing the beginning.



Thank you for sharing this, I had not seen that one, so that's yet another anecdotal bit of evidence.  Almost 70% of those folks were fully vaxxed =  I've seen enough.  There are now 2 types of people in America, those who are vaccinated, and those who are going to get COVID19.

The sad part about this is I THINK (and I hope I'm wrong) the unvaxxed are going to look at those figures and say, _"Oh, the vaccines dont work"_ and use it as confirmation bias to not get vaccinated, because they will fail to understand two very important things:

1) If your test population is high for expressing a given variable, you are likely to experience high selection rate for that variable, and ~64% of MA residents are fully vaccinated. In other words, you're biasing a higher "pull rate" from the fully vaxxed cohort.  Then there's the sociological aspect, whereby one might hypothesize that fully vaxxed people are more likely to be out-and-about & mingling, and thus additionally increasing their rate of incidence over that of the non-vaxxed.

2) If you're fully vaccinated & get COVID19, you're likely to be asymptomatic or experience a mild flu, as opposed to experience the worst flu of your life, or worst case scenario end up six foot under.  Almost all deaths now are from unvaxxed people (literally > 99%).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 26, 2021)

So does the fact we didn't vaccinate to "heard" immunity before delta variant, now mean that between vaccinated folks and those who get delta variant we could achieve heard immunity?  

I assume if this is true there is a human life cost which mainly appears to be coming at the expense of those who have chosen not to get vaccinated. 

I haven't heard much on the booster front recently.  Would a booster include delta variant antibodies? 

can't believe I'm asking these questions on a ski forum...  LOL


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Would a booster include delta variant antibodies?



Clinical trials begin next week for a Delta vaccine version.  It's conceptually not much different than how influenza vaccine contains different strains each year, so I hope they dont drag their feet.  In a few months I'm going to seek out the JNJ vaccine as my "booster", as I'd like to add the adenovirus version to the mRNA version I got for a wider suite of protection.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

Interesting.  Didn't know you could do that.  I got Moderna the first time around.  I suppose it wouldn't hurt getting the JnJ.


One thing that I think might help with vax rates is full FDA approval vs just EUA.   A percentage of people are holding out for that approval.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> One thing that I think might help with vax rates is full FDA approval vs just EUA.   A percentage of people are holding out for that approval.



I'm curious how much that will actually help. I think there's people using that simply as a convenient excuse, but even once it is "approved" will then just come up with some other different excuse.


----------



## boston_e (Jul 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Thank you for sharing this, I had not seen that one, so that's yet another anecdotal bit of evidence.  Almost 70% of those folks were fully vaxxed =  I've seen enough.  There are now 2 types of people in America, those who are vaccinated, and those who are going to get COVID19.
> 
> The sad part about this is *I THINK (and I hope I'm wrong) the unvaxxed are going to look at those figures and say, *_*"Oh, the vaccines dont work"*_ and use it as confirmation bias to not get vaccinated, because they will fail to understand two very important things:
> 
> ...



100% this is what the unvaxxed people are saying and doing.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 26, 2021)

The more time it has, the more variant's there will be.

 Our half assed approach will cost many more thousands of lives as this increases into the fall


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 26, 2021)

2Planker said:


> The more time it has, the more variant's there will be.
> 
> Our half assed approach will cost many more thousands of lives as this increases into the fall


Not sure what they could do to make those not getting the shots get the shots…


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Not sure what they could do to make those not getting the shots get the shots…



Make it hit folks wallet.  This really is a no brainer at this point.  The vaccines are free, readily available and save lives.   Set a deadline of November 1st.   You can get a vax for free until that point. After you are on the hook for $500 applied to your federal income tax liability.  Use the proceeds to give back to the hospitals that are having to still deal with the unnecessary strain on resources.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Make it hit folks wallet.  This really is a no brainer at this point.  The vaccines are free, readily available and save lives.   Set a deadline of November 1st.   You can get a vax for free until that point. After you are on the hook for $500 applied to your federal income tax liability.  Use the proceeds to give back to the hospitals that are having to still deal with the unnecessary strain on resources.


That will never happen. Might as well say you will be executed if you don’t get it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

Plenty of colleges have been requiring vaccines for years.  

Something punitive has to be on the table at this point.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Make it hit folks wallet.  This really is a no brainer at this point.  The vaccines are free, readily available and save lives.   Set a deadline of November 1st.   You can get a vax for free until that point. After you are on the hook for $500 applied to your federal income tax liability.  Use the proceeds to give back to the hospitals that are having to still deal with the unnecessary strain on resources.


This is an insane idea


----------



## Andrew B. (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Plenty of colleges have been requiring vaccines for years.
> 
> Something punitive has to be on the table at this point.


You do understand the difference between the choice to go to a university and the government forcing you to do something to your body?
#unconstitutional


----------



## abc (Jul 26, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> You do understand the difference between the choice to go to a university and the government forcing you to do something to your body?
> #unconstitutional


The difference is “the government” doesn’t run university.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> You do understand the difference between the choice to go to a university and the government forcing you to do something to your body?
> #unconstitutional



I do understand that, but my patience for anti-vax morons that are prolonging this situation is running thin. 

Do you have a better idea on how to increase the acceptance rate of the vaccine?  I'm all ears.

Maybe the insurance companies reduce the reimbursement rate for hospital services rendered to the unvaccinated


----------



## Andrew B. (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you have a better idea on how to increase the acceptance rate of the vaccine?  I'm all ears.


Gunpoint?
But that won’t make the anti 2A morons happy


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

abc said:


> The difference is “the government” doesn’t run university.


Technically they do actually.  Most Universities are public institutions.  I went to UVM.  Had to provide proof of vaccination.


----------



## Andrew B. (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Technically they do actually.  Most Universities are public institutions.  I went to UVM.  Had to provide proof of vaccination.


You chose to go to UVM knowing that was a requirement. No one forced you to “go to UVM or get fined”.
This is just silly, good luck with it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> You chose to go to UVM knowing that was a requirement. No one forced you to “go to UVM or get fined”.
> This is just silly, good luck with it.



I didn't choose to enlist at 18, but was required to do so.

I have to have a driver's license to legally drive a car.  

Most all states require automobile passengers to wear a seatbelt or face a fine. 

Somehow these societal participation options have passed constitutional muster. 

I'm really just spit balling here.  Perhaps we honestly need to get silly to get folks to wake the F up.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Technically they do actually.  Most Universities are public institutions.  I went to UVM.  Had to provide proof of vaccination.


If you really want to be technical, according to NCES stats, "most" are private (about 60% private vs 40% public).



deadheadskier said:


> I didn't choose to enlist at 18, but was required to do so.
> 
> I have to have a driver's license to legally drive a car.
> 
> ...


Other than the first thing, the others you listed are optional (You can choose not to drive or ride in a car).

That said, I do agree we need to find a way to put more pressure on people. Government mandating it is just going to create more push-back though. I am all in favor of employers (both public and private) requiring it along with schools requiring it. I'm also fine with making it a requirement for things people "want" to do (again this needs to be driven more by private entities though such as airlines requiring it to fly, stadiums/arenas requiring it to attend sporting events or concerts, etc).


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> If you really want to be technical, according to NCES stats, "most" are private (about 60% private vs 40% public).
> 
> 
> Other than the first thing, the others you listed are optional (You can choose not to drive or ride in a car).
> ...



You are probably right about government mandates creating push back.

But government should absolutely support private entities choice in requiring vaccines.  

Again, mainly just spit balling here.  It's God damn ridiculous at this point why so many people are still refusing the vaccine and thus prolonging the problem.  So, yeah, I'm throwing out some ridiculous ideas.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> This is an insane idea



Literally unconstitutional, so it's a nonstarter, but it's like something from a Communist nation (where they actually do this).   But ignoring that, it's also both mathematically & statistically foolish.  About ~50% of Americans dont pay a penny in income tax to begin with, and the ~50% who do generally adhere fairly well to the vaccinations.  So not only are you just doing something frighteningly authoritarian, but you're by-and-large missing the patient cohort you need to vax anyway.  lol


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Gunpoint?
> But that won’t make the anti 2A morons happy



Nonsense.

The anti 2A morons are perfectly "happy" when they're the only ones who have access to guns; the examples of such are all around you.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> But ignoring that, it's also both mathematically & statistically foolish.  About ~50% of Americans dont pay a penny in income tax to begin with, and the ~50% who do generally adhere fairly well to the vaccinations.  So not only are you just doing something frighteningly authoritarian, but you're by-and-large missing the patient cohort you need to vax anyway.  lol


I think in this case the anti-vax crowd is more diverse than you think. Off the top of my head I can think of a decent number of people that I personally know that are refusing to get the COVID vaccine so far. And all of them absolutely pay taxes.


----------



## abc (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you have a better idea on how to increase the acceptance rate of the vaccine? I'm all ears.
> 
> Maybe the insurance companies reduce the reimbursement rate for hospital services rendered to the unvaccinated


Some of the steps already imposed: mandatory weekly testing. 

Insurance company should absolutely put in a surcharge for those refusing to vaccinate (or the opposite way, a credit for the vaccinated). 

Also, private company are free to deny *paid* sick leave for those refuse to vaccinate. 

None of these step is going to work fast though. A much quicker way is to deny license for large events unless they "require" participants to vaccinate. My impression is majority of the unvaccinated aren't exactly "anti-vax". (I know a few) They're still largely just vaccine hesitant. Take away their favorite pass time, they may not be all that "anti-vax" any more.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I think in this case the anti-vax crowd is more diverse than you think. Off the top of my head I can think of a decent number of people that I personally know that are refusing to get the COVID vaccine so far. And all of them absolutely pay taxes.



   I'm speaking purely on a statistical nature.  We have this data, and the adult non-vaxxed are far more likely to be from the lower income pools.  Yes, I'm sure there's a billionaire or three who graduated from Yale or Wharton who arent vaccinated, but they are not the preponderance of the non-vaxxed.  Vax rate increases linearly with income level (also with education attainment).


----------



## Andrew B. (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> The anti 2A morons are perfectly "happy" when they're the only ones who have access to guns; the examples of such are all around you.


I figured anyone that could believe that this is a good idea would be naive enough to buy the BS that most anti2A’ers only have “the purest of intentions”


----------



## machski (Jul 27, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> You do understand the difference between the choice to go to a university and the government forcing you to do something to your body?
> #unconstitutional


I can't see this.  But will insurance carriers start denying coverage for those unvaccinated and requiring hospitalization at some point.  Yes, there is a governor mandate from ACA to have insurance but there is currently no penalty for not doing so.  So in essence, there isn't a hard and fast mandate for insurance.  So could that fly?  No idea, but wouldn't put it past a carrier or 2 to try.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 27, 2021)

New 'medical freedom' law outlaws requiring COVID-19 vaccine to access public spaces
					

New Hampshire residents cannot be required to get a COVID-19 vaccine in order to "access any public facility, any public benefit, or any public service" according to a new bill signed into law by Republican Gov. Chris Sununu.  The so-called "medical freedom" bill does not override state vaccine...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## drjeff (Jul 27, 2021)

Having spent 25ish or so years trying to convince folks to do some basic health items to help take care of themselves, as well as some with some societal stigma and controversy in some groups about a couple of things in my line of work (Amalgam"silver" fillings and Fluoride are 2 of the most common items I get some push back about), I tend to see that those who "question the science" can be in either the high or low income brackets, very well educated or non highschool graduates, male, female, old, young, married, single, parents, non parents, politcally leaning right, politically leaning left. There really isn't any strong pattern amongst the demographics, other then they all tend to have quite strong personalities and seem to not to be very accepting if someone tries and tells them what to do, even if their is an abundance of data and science that what you're trying to get them to do, will have a benefit for their health.

To try and make this push to get the unvaccinated more along politcial ideology instead of more often a stubborn personality trait mixed with a bit of fear/skepticism, I just feel isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation, and frankly the often politicalization of so much of COVID from basically Day 1 has certainly made aspects of how it is being handled far worse than they could of been, especially as things have evolved, and as such that has shown that some of what our various politicians (of BOTH major political parties) as well as public health officials and the partisan media, would of/should of made statements acknowledging that what they said in the past about something COVID related may have been false and what their ideological differnent equivalent in government or the media said about the same topic in the past was actually true.


----------



## boston_e (Jul 27, 2021)

drjeff said:


> To try and make this push to get the unvaccinated more along politcial ideology instead of more often a stubborn personality trait mixed with a bit of fear/skepticism, I just feel isn't an accurate portrayal of the situation,


How is it not accurate?  Survey after survey has shown that Republicans are less likely to be vaccinated than Democrats, and the data seems to support that with most of the "red states" being near the bottom of percentages of people who are fully vaccinated and "blue states"near the top.


----------



## NYDB (Jul 27, 2021)

Deny the facts all you want and keep thinking its not political. It's a .85 correlation.  Very signifigant.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 27, 2021)

Well said. 

while COVID has amplified it, this problem has been elevating for a while now. 

the fact that people of differing political opinions often times can't and won't see eye to eye with someone of differing views is destroying this country.  Its really annoying and petty. 

I'm not saying people should have to get a vaccine.  But at the same time I wish everyone would to put this thing to rest so we can continue to live our lives as we once did or at a minimum move forward with whatever the Covid changed world will be.


----------



## slatham (Jul 27, 2021)

So many people miss the point about vaccine mandates. Sure there are a some people - likely measured in the thousands - who will not get vaccinated, or have their children vaccinated. But the reality is vaccines are in effect mandated in this country and have been for decades. And note that most countries will not allow entry without proof of vaccination for certain diseases (Polio for instance). Take a look: https://www.immunize.org/laws/

As for the here and now, there is precedent for employers, schools, even government agencies, to  mandate vaccination. And I think the health insurance angle is a good one. I expect there to be a flood of such mandates once full FDA approval is achieved.

Sure, you want to be free and exercise your constitutional right? Fine, but don;t expect to be able to live a normal life, because most of what people do is a privilege, not a right. And a privilege can be taken away.


----------



## cdskier (Jul 27, 2021)

slatham said:


> Sure, you want to be free and exercise your constitutional right? Fine, but don;t expect to be able to live a normal life, because most of what people do is a privilege, not a right. And a privilege can be taken away.


Yup...and what many people fail to realize is that "Freedom of choice" does not mean you have "Freedom from consequences" of said choice...


----------



## drjeff (Jul 27, 2021)

boston_e said:


> How is it not accurate?  Survey after survey has shown that Republicans are less likely to be vaccinated than Democrats, and the data seems to support that with most of the "red states" being near the bottom of percentages of people who are fully vaccinated and "blue states"near the top.



I agree that more folks who haven't been vaccinated yet are likely Conservative, however, shall we bring into the discussion the generally lower vaccination rates of African Americans, who historically tend to vote Democrat, and have the lasting societal effects from the essentailly medical experimentation work the government basically used them for a few generations ago,  and the lingering effects that has had on that demographic with respect to trusting of the government when it comes to what they are saying (and saying correctly I fully believe) about COVID vaccines and their importance?

Or is that fact, and the affects it has had on keeping vaccine rates down even in some Blue states that have large urban areas, an inconvenient truth?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2021)

I think there's more to it than herp derp Democrats will get vaccinated and Republicans wont.

 It's true Democrats will be more obedient to authority than Republicans, so there's that, but Democrats also are far more likely to live in dense population centers where risk of COVID19 is dramatically higher than the rancher who owns 134 acres in Idaho, and that obviously will have a statistically meaningful impact on numbers when extrapolated out to millions.  In fact, I think that's the answer right there.  Democrats, in general, are at far more risk to catch COVID19, at least perceptionally.

I also blame the media.  Why?  Because interestingly enough early on from December to about May there was very little difference in vaccination rates between Republicans & Democrats, even though you heard otherwise.  It was almost as if the media politically WANTED there to be a difference.  The media politicized it & I think weirdly it became a self-fulfilling prophecy as Republicans "heard" other Republicans dont get vaxxed and Democrats "heard" other Democrats do get vaxxed.  I dont necessarily love that explanation, but I have no other hypothesis for why vaccination rates went from D+2 to D+12 from early May to late July.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Literally unconstitutional, so it's a nonstarter, but it's like something from a Communist nation (where they actually do this).   But ignoring that, it's also both mathematically & statistically foolish.  About ~50% of Americans dont pay a penny in income tax to begin with, and the ~50% who do generally adhere fairly well to the vaccinations.  So not only are you just doing something frighteningly authoritarian, but you're by-and-large missing the patient cohort you need to vax anyway.  lol


Is it really 50%.  It can't be that high.  If it is what the fuck.  That is another whole topic.  Jeezus I pay way to many taxes then.


----------



## Dickc (Jul 27, 2021)

One of the things being left out of this equation is that many other countries have VERY low vax rates.  Much has to do with money issues of getting the vaccines.  The current Delta variant was predominantly found in India to begin with.  India has a very low vax rate as they are relativly poor.  Until we can provide (richer countries) to these poor countries, enough vaccine to go around, these variants will continue to happen.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Is it really 50%.  It can't be that high.  If it is what the fuck.  That is another whole topic.  Jeezus I pay way to many taxes then.


It really is now just about 50% of Americans who for various reasons specified in the tax code, don't pay any federal income tax at all


----------



## mbedle (Jul 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Is it really 50%.  It can't be that high.  If it is what the fuck.  That is another whole topic.  Jeezus I pay way to many taxes then.


That 50% number is a little outdated and misunderstood. The number is now around 44% but doesn't take into account the age of the tax payer. For example, only 11% of people age 25-55 do not pay income tax. And 80% of people over 75 do not pay income tax. Another thing to note is that most people will typically only not be paying income tax for a single year.


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 27, 2021)

Tha


deadheadskier said:


> Make it hit folks wallet.  This really is a no brainer at this point.  The vaccines are free, readily available and save lives.   Set a deadline of November 1st.   You can get a vax for free until that point. After you are on the hook for $500 applied to your federal income tax liability.  Use the proceeds to give back to the hospitals that are having to still deal with the unnecessary strain on resources.


that is a bit much!  Penalizing those that might have legitimate fears?  I live in a predominantly black area and there are many good folks here that have no political agenda that have not been vaccinated yet.  Many including my neighbors and others that I have spoken to in the area are just afraid of the health consequences.


----------



## kbroderick (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> ... I dont necessarily love that explanation, but I have no other hypothesis for why vaccination rates went from D+2 to D+12 from early May to late July.



My guess would be that age has a significant impact on that statistic. The initial vaccine roll-out was generally targeted at higher-risk populations, particularly older folks, who (a) have a clearly higher risk of hospitalization and death should they become infected, and (b) may have either direct or nearly direct experience with prior mass-vaccination efforts (e.g. polio). Apparently those who recall a world where several modern vaccines weren't available have little interest in returning, while those who have no recollection of such times are more likely to be wary of vaccines.


----------



## boston_e (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think there's more to it than herp derp Democrats will get vaccinated and Republicans wont.
> 
> It's true Democrats will be more obedient to authority than Republicans, so there's that, but Democrats also are far more likely to live in dense population centers where risk of COVID19 is dramatically higher than the rancher who owns 134 acres in Idaho, and that obviously will have a statistically meaningful impact on numbers when extrapolated out to millions.  In fact, I think that's the answer right there.  Democrats, in general, are at far more risk to catch COVID19, at least perceptionally.
> 
> I also blame the media.  Why?  Because interestingly enough early on from December to about May there was very little difference in vaccination rates between Republicans & Democrats, even though you heard otherwise.  It was almost as if the media politically WANTED there to be a difference.  The media politicized it & I think weirdly it became a self-fulfilling prophecy as Republicans "heard" other Republicans dont get vaxxed and Democrats "heard" other Democrats do get vaxxed.  I dont necessarily love that explanation, but I have no other hypothesis for why vaccination rates went from D+2 to D+12 from early May to late July.



Isn't it more likely because of these right wing echo chamber "news" outlets and prominent republican leader that continue to promote misinformation about the safety and efficacy of vaccines?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> *Is it really 50%.* * It can't be that high*.  If it is what the fuck.  That is another whole topic.  Jeezus I pay way to many taxes then.



It can, and it is.









						Percentages of U.S. households that paid no income tax, by income level 2021 | Statista
					

In total, about 42.9 percent of U.S.




					www.statista.com


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think there's more to it than herp derp Democrats will get vaccinated and Republicans wont.
> 
> It's true Democrats will be more obedient to authority than Republicans, so there's that, but Democrats also are far more likely to live in dense population centers where risk of COVID19 is dramatically higher than the rancher who owns 134 acres in Idaho, and that obviously will have a statistically meaningful impact on numbers when extrapolated out to millions.  In fact, I think that's the answer right there.  Democrats, in general, are at far more risk to catch COVID19, at least perceptionally.
> 
> I also blame the media.  Why?  Because interestingly enough early on from December to about May there was very little difference in vaccination rates between Republicans & Democrats, even though you heard otherwise.  It was almost as if the media politically WANTED there to be a difference.  The media politicized it & I think weirdly it became a self-fulfilling prophecy as Republicans "heard" other Republicans dont get vaxxed and Democrats "heard" other Democrats do get vaxxed.  I dont necessarily love that explanation, but I have no other hypothesis for why vaccination rates went from D+2 to D+12 from early May to late July.


The most telling of the politicization of vaccine is our former president, who played a key role in making the vaccine possible, chose to *keep it out of the media *that he got vaccinated DESPITE having caught Covid (and would have been immune anyway). Clearly, vaccine is a dirty little secret that's entirely unfashionable in the Republican circle! Any Republican who chose to get vaccinated largely did so quietly. So as not to fall out of favor of their supporters!

Is it any surprise the "media" acted accordingly? They have their rating to concern with too.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Isn't it more likely because of these right wing echo chamber "news" outlets and prominent republican leader that continue to promote misinformation about the safety and efficacy of vaccines?



I think that's political BS too.  The reality is most people pay no attention to their politicians & one of the greatest "secrets" hiding in the open is that very few people watch cable news.  Fox News blows away other cable news to the point if you add MSNBC to CNN it's still less than Fox News viewership.  What is Fox News ratings?  A "whopping" (sarcasm) 2M or so.  And most Americans pathetically cant even name their congressman/congresswoman.


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Fox News blows away other cable news to the point if you add MSNBC to CNN it's still less than Fox News viewership. What is Fox News ratings? A "whopping" (sarcasm) 2M or so.
> 
> 
> BenedictGomez said:
> ...


Americans aren't watching media, yet you "blame the media"?


----------



## mikec142 (Jul 27, 2021)

Health insurance imposes a surcharge if you're a smoker... wonder if the same premise could apply to the non-vaxxed.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2021)

abc said:


> Americans aren't watching media, yet you "blame the media"?



Cable news *≠* The media.


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Cable news *≠* The media.


So what's "media" to you (which you "blame")?


----------



## dblskifanatic (Jul 27, 2021)

abc said:


> The most telling of the politicization of vaccine is our former president, who played a key role in making the vaccine possible, chose to *keep it out of the media *that he got vaccinated DESPITE having caught Covid (and would have been immune anyway). Clearly, vaccine is a dirty little secret that's entirely unfashionable in the Republican circle! Any Republican who chose to get vaccinated largely did so quietly. So as not to fall out of favor of their supporters!
> 
> Is it any surprise the "media" acted accordingly? They have their rating to concern with too.



that is the biggest line of bull shit stop politicizing this!  This whole thread is disturbing.  Look at different cultures and groups of people and it is very telling and it is not a party line thing.  Are there more republicans that are not vaccinated as a percentage - yes.  But there are a large number of democrats that are not at the same time.  If MA is close to 65% percent vaccinated and the state votes 65 - 70 % democrat based on your arguments all Republican's in MA are not.  Many republicans have been vaccinated in MA.  Everyone that is in my circle of friends and family that are republican are vaccinated.  There is a lot of fear in many of the communities around here.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 27, 2021)

Time to lock this stupid political thread.


----------



## Hawk (Jul 27, 2021)

Its been bubbling.  It was only a mater of time before it blew up.  It is what is happening all over the country.  We are so fucked as a nation.  Like I said before, it's only a mater of time before I check out of here for friendlier waters.


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I check out of here for friendlier waters.


"Friendlier water"? Where, in Canada?


----------



## Hawk (Jul 27, 2021)

Hard to say actually but the possibilities are there.   We will see.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Its been bubbling.  It was only a mater of time before it blew up.  It is what is happening all over the country.  We are so fucked as a nation.  Like I said before, it's only a mater of time before I check out of here for friendlier waters.


agree 100%.  Not sure I can move to a new country though...


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2021)

abc said:


> So what's "media" to you (which you "blame")?


The entire collective, of which, cable news is a very teeny-tiny slice, like I said, check out the ratings versus the US population, it's next to nothing.  TWTR's daus alone are far more influential than all of cable news combined, FB too.  Online papers of influence (WaPo, NYT, etc..), and on and on.  Cable news is only a small sliver to "blame".


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Isn't it more likely because of these right wing echo chamber "news" outlets and prominent republican leader that continue to promote misinformation about the safety and efficacy of vaccines?


Where did he mention FOX? You brought out FOX as an example of "few are watching". 

Then went on say FOX isn't representative of "media"!

So you just argue yourself out of "media to be blame"...


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 27, 2021)

boston_e said:


> How is it not accurate?  Survey after survey has shown that Republicans are less likely to be vaccinated than Democrats, and the data seems to support that with most of the "red states" being near the bottom of percentages of people who are fully vaccinated and "blue states"near the top.


Most of the antivax people ( leaving out those on the left that were anti vax for political reasons until it made political sense not to be) I've encountered arent as much Republican as they are libertarian/anarchist/fringe/Infowar people


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 27, 2021)

abc said:


> The most telling of the politicization of vaccine is our former president, who played a key role in making the vaccine possible, chose to *keep it out of the media *that he got vaccinated DESPITE having caught Covid (and would have been immune anyway). Clearly, vaccine is a dirty little secret that's entirely unfashionable in the Republican circle! Any Republican who chose to get vaccinated largely did so quietly. So as not to fall out of favor of their supporters!
> 
> Is it any surprise the "media" acted accordingly? They have their rating to concern with too.


Actually, he'd probably love to see everyone get the shot and it work as it was developed under his watch and he could get some credit for that.


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Actually, he'd probably love to see everyone get the shot and it work as it was developed under his watch and he could get some credit for that.


It's one of the brightest spot of his presidency. But it's not in keeping with the anti-establishment, anti-science theme. Even more so, it's not in keeping with the "Covid is just a bad flu" theme! 

So instead of taking credit, it was never mentioned. Does anyone see big celebration of our genius president who oversee the unprecedented rapid development of so many vaccines? (if that's done, trust me, we would have had 80% vaccination rate by now!)


----------



## boston_e (Jul 27, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> that is the biggest line of bull shit stop politicizing this!  This whole thread is disturbing.  Look at different cultures and groups of people and it is very telling and it is not a party line thing.  Are there more republicans that are not vaccinated as a percentage - yes.  But there are a large number of democrats that are not at the same time.  If MA is close to 65% percent vaccinated and the state votes 65 - 70 % democrat based on your arguments all Republican's in MA are not.  Many republicans have been vaccinated in MA.  Everyone that is in my circle of friends and family that are republican are vaccinated.  There is a lot of fear in many of the communities around here.



I mean, if there are more republicans not vaccinated than democrats, and it is primarily republican leaders and right wing news outlets continuing to perpetuate the spread of misinformation about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines.... how do you say there isn't a party line component of it?


----------



## JimG. (Jul 27, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> can't believe I'm asking these questions on a ski forum...  LOL


Why?

It's the only topic most people seem to talk about anywhere you look.


----------



## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

What else is there to talk about? It's summer! Vail bashing? But I think we've done that to death. How about Olympic gymnastic? Boring...


----------



## ss20 (Jul 27, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Its been bubbling.  It was only a mater of time before it blew up.  It is what is happening all over the country.  We are so fucked as a nation.  Like I said before, it's only a mater of time before I check out of here for friendlier waters.



I'm thinking/hoping it's a generational thing and people will eventually mellow out again if we can (hopefully) elect a string of moderate Presidents.  I'm in my 20s and hate politics with a passion because for my entire short adult life it's just been both sides ripping each other's heads off.  I hate to say it but I don't even vote.  I want zero involvement... I'm that disillusioned by the whole system.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 27, 2021)

You know what?

Biden could shut everyone up and raise vaccination rates simply by inviting Trump to the White House and convince him to promote his supporters getting vaccinated. 
Acknowledge his contribution to the solution.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 27, 2021)

abc said:


> What else is there to talk about? It's summer! Vail bashing? But I think we've done that to death. How about Olympic gymnastic? Boring...


Somehow this seems sad to me.


----------



## boston_e (Jul 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Biden could shut everyone up and raise vaccination rates simply by inviting Trump to the White House and convince him to promote his supporters getting vaccinated.
> Acknowledge his contribution to the solution.


Trump had plenty of opportunity to promote to his supporters about getting vaccinated.  Why he didn’t take a bigger victory lap for his part in the success of operation warp speed is difficult to understand.

Instead he chose to act like a petulant child.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 27, 2021)

boston_e said:


> By Nuhhhbhb
> 
> Trump had plenty of opportunity to promote to his supporters about getting vaccinated.  Why he didn’t take a bigger victory lap for his part in the success of operation warp speed is difficult to understand.
> 
> Instead he chose to act like a petulant child.


Who cares? I don't.

I just want this bullshit to end.


----------



## PAabe (Jul 28, 2021)

I am tired of talking about covid and would rather pretend it no longer exists.  Thought we were done with this months ago.  There has been plenty of opportunity for folks to get vaxed and if they haven't not my problem such is life

As a vaccinated individual I am probably more likely to spontaneously die in my sleep tonight than die of covid at this point, and all the seniors and at risk people I know have likewise been vaccinated for months, however, many have had non-covid health issues exacerbated by the general situation.  I truly believe it is time to move on but I do realize that is my opinion.

Regarding the Olympics, that women's road race the other day was really something! Lots of exciting things going on in tokyo


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 28, 2021)

JimG. said:


> You know what?
> 
> Biden could shut everyone up and raise vaccination rates simply by inviting Trump to the White House and convince him to promote his supporters getting vaccinated.
> Acknowledge his contribution to the solution.


Actually last Sat in AZ, Trump did exactly that, in front of 5,000 (which he claimed was 30,000)

 He did spout his usual stolen election BS for 90 mins, But definitely did tell people to go out and get Vaccine asap
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/trump-covid-vaccine-video-speech-vc996191e


----------



## boston_e (Jul 28, 2021)

PAabe said:


> I am tired of talking about covid and would rather pretend it no longer exists.  Thought we were done with this months ago.  There has been plenty of opportunity for folks to get vaxed and if they haven't not my problem such is life



Except it could be all of our problem if it continues to spread and mutate into a variant that eludes the vaccines.

Here in the US we have an abundance of safe and effective vaccines and a pretty high percentage of people who won't get it, largely for political reasons.  Its stupid.


----------



## skiur (Jul 28, 2021)

JimG. said:


> You know what?
> 
> Biden could shut everyone up and raise vaccination rates simply by inviting Trump to the White House and convince him to promote his supporters getting vaccinated.
> Acknowledge his contribution to the solution.



That would be career suicide for Biden.


----------



## boston_e (Jul 28, 2021)

skiur said:


> That would be career suicide for Biden.


Sadly that is probably true.


----------



## abc (Jul 28, 2021)

No, that would be career suicide for Trump.


----------



## boston_e (Jul 28, 2021)

abc said:


> No, that would be career suicide for Trump.


That is definitely true.


----------



## ThatGuy (Jul 28, 2021)

This thread is whats making me think of suicide, can we shut this down or talk about something more pertinent to the topic of Vermont skier visits. It’s been about 20 pages now of ad hominem attacks and anecdotal opinions, with the sparse statistic thrown in between. We’re on here because we all love skiing (I hope), not because we want to be armchair scientists and sociologists or argue with internet strangers. There are some of you who obviously don’t want to have a serious discussion, its just one snarky comment or personal jab. While others are acting like its their life mission to proselytize their positions for or against all restrictions and vaccines. I’m in my twenties and it’s sad to see full grown “adults” bickering like petulant children over things that they definitely won’t change, on a niche internet forum devoted to skiing where they can’t even change each others opinions. My vaccination status or political affiliation isn’t relevant on this forum and neither is anyone else’s. The world is changing everyday and change is the only thing that never changes so we better get used to it. Arguing day in and out over the same things won’t get you anywhere.


----------



## abc (Jul 28, 2021)

You have a idealistic view of internet forum which some of us used to have.


ThatGuy said:


> We’re on here because we all love skiing (I hope), not because we want to be armchair scientists and sociologists or argue with internet strangers.


The two are not mutually exclusive. You can love skiing yet want to be armchair scientist.

Moreover, I'm of the opinion many who post on social media are there to argue with strangers! Some enjoy it as an entertainment. Others are addicted to it like drugs/gambling!

But there's no need to despair. The internet forum isn't representative of the average population (or ski population). 

If you don't enjoy the posts, you don't have to read them. If you find the proliferation of non-skiing threads annoying, take a break from this forum till winter. Majority of people do just that. (I'm only browsing here from time to time so I don't miss any worthy news on passes for next season)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2021)

skiur said:


> That would be career suicide for Biden.



Because that's what politics in America has devolved into, scorched-earth policy.  If it doesnt change it will doom our nation, because our politicians now focus more time & effort on hurting ideologically opposed Americans rather than foreign enemies.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 28, 2021)

good point.  there is hardly any bipartisan workings and both parties are to blame. 

If there was 1 thing that should've been bipartisan in our lifetimes it should've been to fight Covid.   

God help us if we are ever in a war situation and have to defend our country...


----------



## Hawk (Jul 28, 2021)

skiur said:


> That would be career suicide for Biden.


How long a career do you think he has left?  He is not long for politics and has even hinted that.  I don't think that is even an issue.  I mean it will never happen but if any new cantidate  wants to change things and rally the country they are going to have to do something drastic like take a running mate from an opposing party or take a position that is not favorable to his or her party.


----------



## JimG. (Jul 28, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> good point.  there is hardly any bipartisan workings and both parties are to blame.
> 
> If there was 1 thing that should've been bipartisan in our lifetimes it should've been to fight Covid.
> 
> God help us if we are ever in a war situation and have to defend our country...


Exactly...time for both sides to man up, swallow some pride, and work together towards a common goal that benefits everyone.

That said, I'm doing my part to increase VT skier visits this coming season, got my midweek K pass and pretty excited to ski in VT again after missing out last season.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 28, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Exactly...time for both sides to man up, swallow some pride, and work together towards a common goal that benefits everyone.
> 
> That said, I'm doing my part to increase VT skier visits this coming season, got my midweek K pass and pretty excited to ski in VT again after missing out last season.



Agree! The current "Caucus before Country" style of politics BOTH parties certainly play is disgusting. It would be nice if more people, regardless of their ideological leanings, realized that their elected officials are often just playing their constituents with lines of utter doom and gloom if the other party gets their way, and stand up to their fear mongering the next time they have the chance to vote them out.  And then keep voting their successors out until enough of the party establishment is rattled to actually start trying to work for the people, and not just their own party, again


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Sadly that is probably true.


His career is going to be over in a little over 3 yrs anyway, so who cares.  There's no way he's going to run again at 82.  If it were truly about getting shots in arms and not about politics and not doing anything to give the evil orange man credit, theyd have Trump and Biden do a primetime address from the white house


----------



## abc (Jul 28, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> If it were truly about getting shots in arms and not about politics and not doing anything to give the evil orange man credit, theyd have Trump and Biden do a primetime address from the white house


Trump had that chance before he left office. 

If he didn't do it then, he's not going to do it now. 


jimmywilson69 said:


> God help us if we are ever in a war situation and have to defend our country...


Instead of fighting the enemy, they'll be too busy blaming the other party for letting the situation got to that point. 

Or better yet, claim the enemy is no big deal and don't even need to fight! Just enjoy life as usual as though nothing has changed. Sounds familiar?


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 28, 2021)

“Punish your enemies and reward your friends “ Hard to have any common ground with someone who thinks you are evil. 
The chasm will only grow wider with the author of that quote who is the real president not the current puppet occupant .
Come on man cut the politics!!!!!


----------



## boston_e (Jul 28, 2021)

So as this new variant ramps up, (and it seems evident that we would t get enough people vaccinated to reach herd immunity)…… predictions on how it might affect operations next winter?


----------



## snoseek (Jul 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> So as this new variant ramps up, (and it seems evident that we would t get enough people vaccinated to reach herd immunity)…… predictions on how it might affect operations next winter?


It probably wont all that much os my guess. People are over it vaccinated or not. Mask up maybe? Last season worked on for me honestly


----------



## abc (Jul 28, 2021)

boston_e said:


> So as this new variant ramps up, (and it seems evident that we would t get enough people vaccinated to reach herd immunity)…… predictions on how it might affect operations next winter?


If people continue to refuse to vaccinate, we're going to have a bigger outbreak come Thanksgiving! And stretch into Christmas just like last year. While that won't affect the skiing part, it may affect the stuff around skiing, like lodge access, food and drink etc. Personally, if there're as many cases as now come winter, I'll avoid hanging out in the crowded lodges. 

But it's premature to predict the course of the virus, or the people's behavior. A lot of municipality are requiring their staff to vaccinate. University too. Even more so in private sector. So I'm hopeful a lot more people will get vaccinated. If so, we'll have a winter much closer to what we used to know, instead of resembling last winter.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 29, 2021)

snoseek said:


> It probably wont all that much os my guess. People are over it vaccinated or not. Mask up maybe? Last season worked on for me honestly



Last season showed that the outdoor side of the sport can be done safely. Will that necessarily mean more reservations for daily lift access and/or capacity reduction in lift loading? That might be more open for debate.

Indoor lodge use and dining may be subject to capacity restrictions and/or mask wearing while not eating.

The simple fact is that all along the risk of transmission while one is outside, while not zero, is really, really, really low


----------



## boston_e (Jul 29, 2021)

I'd predict similar... no real effect on the actual skiing components.  Maybe some lift loading or reservation type of stuff.

Depending on how it goes, indoor operations could be affected.  I'd also be curious to see if Vermont (the most vaccinated state) could bring back any future travel restrictions on states with lower vaccination rates.... again it all depends on how things go.  If some sort of travel restrictions returned, it would be unlikely to directly impact most of the states that skiers visit from since the surrounding states are all pretty high vaccine rates as well.

Hopefully more and more people realize the importance of getting vaccinated over the next month or two.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jul 29, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Hopefully more and more people realize the importance of getting vaccinated over the next month or two.


     

I'm with you but I think you know how this goes from here...


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2021)

I'd be very surprised if next season resembles last unless other business restrictions happen first.  

As long as restaurants, theaters, sports arenas etc are going full capacity in the flatlands, I see ski resorts doing the same.  

Let those with a low tolerance for risk continue to tailgate etc.  Let the rest of us go back to almost near normal.  I'd be agreeable to wearing a mask indoors while not eating or drinking if things got real bad again.  I will be bullshit if the chairlifts aren't at full capacity again.   If you really think a chairlift ride with a stranger will get you Covid, stay home.


----------



## snoseek (Jul 29, 2021)

Agree. Fill the damn chairs up. That was probably the toughest part last year. Even midweek got messy in the lines


----------



## Hawk (Jul 29, 2021)

I tend to think the lift capacity thing will go away.  I am not sure about the indoor dining and lodge capacities.  I guess it will be up to the individual States and the mandates and guidance they put out.  I think if the case numbers go up in November at the start of the season, VT will be the first to mandate masks and limit numbers inside the buildings.


----------



## Dickc (Jul 29, 2021)

I hope we can use the lodges more.  I now have trouble walking any real distance and ski boots make that ten times harder.  I can still use my vehicle as a lodge if we have to, but would rather take boots and stuff to the lodge and change there to cut down that ski boot walk.  Masks inside are annoying, but I'll do it if its deemed needed.  Just do not make me wear them outside please. 
Yes, I am vaccinated, but with the J & J.  Have not seen anything on the news about its efficacy with Delta.  Would not surprise me to have J & J declared as needing a booster from either Pfizer or Moderna.


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2021)

If we continue to see outbreaks and need to social distance, there're a whole lot of other things I would need to worry about. Skiing would be low on that list of concerns. Being able to use the lodge, while significant for my personal circumstance, would be the least of my worries.


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 29, 2021)

I think staffing issues will be the problem this year. Everywhere I go I see help wanted signs lots of competition. It takes a pretty hardy person to be out in the cold for extended periods. 
Hopefully the mountains will sweeten the deal with perks but there’s another reason for lift tickets will go up again . Fuel prices are up again too. Mother nature needs to give us a break! 

I think the flu will make a comeback this year as well. People are paying more attention to hygiene than the past which is good but not sure if they’ll think that there in the clear because they’ve been vaccinated.


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I think the flu will make a comeback this year as well. People are paying more attention to hygiene than the past which is good but not sure if t*hey’ll think that there in the clear because they’ve been vaccinated.*


They just need to get vaccinated for flu also. 

Social distance and mask wearing will really help a lot too. But it seems we're discontinuing those though


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 29, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I think staffing issues will be the problem this year. Everywhere I go I see help wanted signs lots of competition. It takes a pretty hardy person to be out in the cold for extended periods.
> Hopefully the mountains will sweeten the deal with perks but there’s another reason for lift tickets will go up again . Fuel prices are up again too. Mother nature needs to give us a break!
> 
> I think the flu will make a comeback this year as well. People are paying more attention to hygiene than the past which is good but not sure if they’ll think that there in the clear because they’ve been vaccinated.


Yup and tons of people that pay much better than the ski industry are having trouble too.  Should be interesting.  Foreigners will be back this year though so that will help a bit


----------



## ss20 (Jul 29, 2021)

I doubt any state, even the bluest of the blue, will re-implement capacity restrictions.  Travel restrictions and mask mandates sure, but any government that re-imposes limits on businesses is committing political suicide at this point.


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> Foreigners will be back this year though so that will help a bit


Didn't the Bidden administration just extended the travel ban for foreigners?


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 29, 2021)

abc said:


> Didn't the Bidden administration just extended the travel ban for foreigners?


Except from Mexico .....I'll stop here .


----------



## abc (Jul 29, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Except from Mexico .....I'll stop here .


I don't recall any exceptions. Do tell...


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2021)

abc said:


> I don't recall any exceptions. Do tell...


Are you living in an alternate universe? You’re not aware of this? 30% of people coming though are not accepting the vaccine and being transported into US communities.








						Attempted crossings at southern U.S. border hit 21-year high in June
					

The numbers were the highest since March 2000, when more than 223,000 immigrants were stopped by the Border Patrol at the southern border.




					www.google.com


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I doubt any state, even the bluest of the blue, will re-implement capacity restrictions.  Travel restrictions and mask mandates sure, but any government that re-imposes limits on businesses is committing political suicide at this point.


I wouldn't put it passed Vermont to re-implement restrictions.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 30, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I doubt any state, even the bluest of the blue, will re-implement capacity restrictions.  Travel restrictions and mask mandates sure, but any government that re-imposes limits on businesses is committing political suicide at this point.


Wanna bet ??? Both ME and MA are already discussing it....


----------



## boston_e (Jul 30, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> I wouldn't put it passed Vermont to re-implement restrictions.


Agreed... Vermont is the most vaccinated state right now and doing pretty good and will want to keep it that way.


----------



## abc (Jul 30, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Are you living in an alternate universe? You’re not aware of this? 30% of people coming though are not accepting the vaccine and being transported into US communities.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm just not aware those same Mexicans are going to help alleviate the staffing shortages in ski industry!  

Who's living in an alternative universe?


----------



## drjeff (Jul 30, 2021)

Just waiting to see how the government wanting to ask it's employees and encouraging private businesses to ask their employees about their vaccination status is going to play out. Heck, in California, an employer can't legally ask a potential employee their sex and/or if they're pregnant, and now the federal government wants them to ask about vaccination status.

The fact that some people seem to want to give more power over our personal freedoms to political leaders of both parties these days is mindboggling to me


----------



## Edd (Jul 30, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Just waiting to see how the government wanting to ask it's employees and encouraging private businesses to ask their employees about their vaccination status is going to play out. Heck, in California, an employer can't legally ask a potential employee their sex and/or if they're pregnant, and now the federal government wants them to ask about vaccination status.
> 
> The fact that some people seem to want to give more power over our personal freedoms to political leaders of both parties these days is mindboggling to me


I can see asking about the vaccination status as that can adversely affect the health of co-workers. Pregnancy and gender, not so much. COVID is still a bit of a national emergency. We’re all in this situation together.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2021)

Mandating vaccines by private employers has gone on for a very long time. At least in healthcare it has.  When I interned with Partners, that was the case as far back as 2002.  If you didn't have the flu vaccine, you had to fill out paperwork stating why and were required to mask up Nov 1st to April 1st.  

I don't see Covid being any different


----------



## NYDB (Jul 30, 2021)

But Mah Freedumbs!


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2021)

abc said:


> I'm just not aware those same Mexicans are going to help alleviate the staffing shortages in ski industry!
> 
> Who's living in an alternative universe?


I thought the goal was to prevent the spread of Covid? That is the title of this thread.
It’s very reckless to allow what is happening and then threaten citizens with lockdowns again.

The hospitality industry has a lot of immigrants !


----------



## drjeff (Jul 30, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Mandating vaccines by private employers has gone on for a very long time. At least in healthcare it has.  When I interned with Partners, that was the case as far back as 2002.  If you didn't have the flu vaccine, you had to fill out paperwork stating why and were required to mask up Nov 1st to April 1st.
> 
> I don't see Covid being any different



The difference is that from an employers standpoint, there have been numerous worker's rights laws that have been passed, especially in the last decade, that have changed what an employer can/can't legally ask an employee. The line between what can and can't be asked, or asked of an employee by an employer has certainly changed on many fronts over time


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 30, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Mandating vaccines by private employers has gone on for a very long time. At least in healthcare it has.  When I interned with Partners, that was the case as far back as 2002.  If you didn't have the flu vaccine, you had to fill out paperwork stating why and were required to mask up Nov 1st to April 1st.
> 
> I don't see Covid being any different


Government employees = UNION


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Government employees = UNION


A very high percentage of Partners employees are Union as well including all of the nurses.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 30, 2021)

The precedent was set in MA, 1905 Jacobson vs Massachusetts.
 in _Jacobson v Massachusetts_, the US Supreme Court upheld the Cambridge, Mass, Board of Health’s authority to require vaccination against smallpox during a smallpox epidemic.....

It'll probably be tested again...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Jul 30, 2021)

fucking a. we eradicated smallpox and polio with a sense of national/international urgency and solidarity. we require vaccinations to go to public school. why should this be any different?

you don't want to be vaccinated? fine. you forego social security, unemployment benefits, medicare/medicaid, and education on the public side. you forfeit the privilege to work for certain companies, the privilege to enter certain private businesses, the privilege to travel on an airplane, etc. on the private side.

fuck your fucking freedoms.

employers, entertainment venues, restaurant groups etc are already taking the lead here. more will follow. pretty sure all of FAANG except for Amazon has a vax requirement now. union square hospitality group (danny meyer's restaurants - an industry leader) announced the same for employees and customers yesterday.


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> fucking a. we eradicated smallpox and polio with a sense of national/international urgency and solidarity. we require vaccinations to go to public school. why should this be any different?
> 
> you don't want to be vaccinated? fine. you forego social security, unemployment benefits, medicare/medicaid, and education on the public side. you forfeit the privilege to work for certain companies, the privilege to enter certain private businesses, the privilege to travel on an airplane, etc. on the private side.
> 
> ...


I’m for vaccinations, lets get “All” the data before we mandate it.  Ironically I know someone who wanted the shingles shot but the doctor would not give it to her because she wasn’t 50 . Guess what she got shingles and now has  Trigeminal neuralgia. Apparently other people who got the Covid vaccine have had a rough time. Her reason for not getting the Covid vaccine. Let’s tap the breaks a little. More data please?


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 30, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I’m for vacation… lets get “All” the data before we mandate it.  Ironically I know someone who wanted the shingles shot but the doctor would not give it to her because she wasn’t 50 . Guess what she got shingles and now has  Trigeminal neuralgia. Apparently other people who got the Covid vaccine have had a rough time. Her reason for not getting the Covid vaccine. Let’s tap the breaks a little. More data please?


How many years before the "if you took the ________ vaccine and are experiencing _______ you may be entitled to compensation" commercials start?


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 30, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> How many years before the "if you took the ________ vaccine and are experiencing _______ you may be entitled to compensation" commercials start?


Lol  I got the vaccine in April and my F’n arm still hurts .  
I suspect that the vaccine companies will say “ It’s EUA and not approved so we’re not liable.

Double irony of my friend, She actually works in the Vaccine division of the company that created the shingles vaccine. If some people have there way here she would loose her job too.


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 30, 2021)

Well I work with this guy and today he said “the vaccine doesn’t work just look at the break through cases in the latest from Mass. 74% of the people were fully vaccinated.”
He won’t get it.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2021)

If y'all want more data that's fine.  But the rest of us want to get on with our lives.  So, feel free to sit on the sidelines and wait for that data, but don't expect to have full access to all activities, jobs, etc. 

There has literally been no data to come out so far that makes me regret the jab.  Not these breakthrough cases or the miniscule amount of bad reactions. 

Sign me up for the booster too. Send a passport my way while we are at it.


----------



## thebigo (Jul 30, 2021)

> “Every single human infection with influenza A in the past 102 years is derived from that one introduction of the 1918 flu.”



Every person reading this is going to deal with covid for the rest of their life. It is time to stop stressing about covid and time to start learning how to live with covid.


----------



## 2Planker (Jul 31, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Well I work with this guy and today he said “the vaccine doesn’t work just look at the break through cases in the latest from Mass. 74% of the people were fully vaccinated.”
> He won’t get it.


People are stupid when it comes to the math....

Overall - 165M Vacc given, something like 150K breakthru cases, works out to 0.09%. 
That's about 1 in 1,000 vacc people will have a breakthru case


----------



## drjeff (Jul 31, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> If y'all want more data that's fine.  But the rest of us want to get on with our lives.  So, feel free to sit on the sidelines and wait for that data, but don't expect to have full access to all activities, jobs, etc.
> 
> There has literally been no data to come out so far that makes me regret the jab.  Not these breakthrough cases or the miniscule amount of bad reactions.
> 
> Sign me up for the booster too. Send a passport my way while we are at it.


Sure seems like the risk of side effects from getting the vaccine are far lower than the risks of side effects from having gotten COVID. 

And in BOTH instances the risk of side effects are very low


----------



## icecoast1 (Jul 31, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Sure seems like the risk of side effects from getting the vaccine are far lower than the risks of side effects from having gotten COVID.


That would depend highly on age and comorbidities


----------



## thebigo (Jul 31, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> fucking a. we eradicated smallpox and polio with a sense of national/international urgency and solidarity. we require vaccinations to go to public school. why should this be any different?
> 
> you don't want to be vaccinated? fine. you forego social security, unemployment benefits, medicare/medicaid, and education on the public side. you forfeit the privilege to work for certain companies, the privilege to enter certain private businesses, the privilege to travel on an airplane, etc. on the private side.
> 
> ...


It took >2000 years to eradicate small pox. We have been working on covid for a little over a year.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

Dickc said:


> I am vaccinated, but with the J & J.  Have not seen anything on the news about its efficacy with Delta.



There are early studies that show it's less, but it still does its' primary job of making threat of hospitalization & death low.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you forego social security



You "forego" getting back some of what was taken from you against your will?  No thanks.  How bout' we just get rid of the most personally financially destructive program in US history & call it a day.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Well I work with this guy and today* he said “the vaccine doesn’t work just look at the break through cases in the latest from Mass. 74% of the people were fully vaccinated.”*
> He won’t get it.



This is a failing of the public education system, not the healthcare system.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

America just achieved a big COVID19 vaccination milestone; 50% of the USA is now fully vaccinated.* 

*Data through July 30, 2021


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 31, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> America just achieved a big COVID19 vaccination milestone; 50% of the USA is now fully vaccinated.*
> 
> *Data through July 30, 2021


Still sad it’s only 50%


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Still sad it’s only 50%



I figured we'd wouldnt do better than 60%'ish. Even in really bad flu years we dont do much better than 40%. Keep in mind, anyone from birth to age 12 is precluded from vaccination, so that artificially makes the 50% seem worse than it really is.

EDIT:  I was curious about this so I looked it up.  Under 18 is about 22% of the population.  Assuming a normalized distribution, that is 15% of the population which cannot be vaxxed, meaning 100% of the potential bogey is actually about 85%.  So in reality, at "50% fully vaccinated", it means that 59% of the country who CAN be vaccinated, has been fully vaccinated.  That's not far off from my WAG.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 31, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> That would depend highly on age and comorbidities


Not really. 

The side effects from the vaccines, are almost universally across the board at a lower rate than the side effects from one getting COVID. 

Again in both circumstances, the side effects are EXTREMELY low, and yes, there are certainly outlying individuals with significant underlying conditions that are affected more than the majority of the population


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 31, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You "forego" getting back some of what was taken from you against your will?  No thanks.  How bout' we just get rid of the most personally financially destructive program in US history & call it a day.



Killing social security? Despite it's flaws, very unpopular opinion to get rid of it.  It's a system that works well enough and many rely on it  

Propose something really good if you want to cut it down.   Show reform that will produce a better return.  That's the sell

Why y'all get so pissed off about the program anyway?

Does it root in being unhappy with your net income?

No matter my income level in life, that 6.2% tax ledger line on my pay stub has always been ignored.  It's actually the one tax I do not mind paying because of what the money is supposed to go towards, even if the process and ROI is poor.

  It's designed to help all Americans.  And it does pretty much for everyone at some point.  Same goes for Medicare taxes. 

I get a little more upset about the other 20+% of my check that I have no idea what it's getting spent on.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Killing social security? Despite it's flaws, very unpopular opinion to get rid of it.  It's a system that works well enough and many rely on it
> 
> Propose something really good if you want to cut it down.   Show reform that will produce a better return.  That's the sell
> 
> ...


Few people are for SS until they start collecting.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

SS will never be touched. 

The trouble of SS is it being paid for by the younger generation. So those who already paid, naturally refuse to forego collecting on it!

But to be able to pay out, it need to “take” from the younger generation. 

The cycle continues.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Killing social security? Despite it's flaws, very unpopular opinion to get rid of it.  It's a system that works well enough and many rely on it



It's only "unpopular" if you phrase is that way, because as abc noted, who the hell would vote to get rid of it after they're had their money confiscated their entire life.  Nobody.   If you ask it in a manner that says "would you rather keep an extra >6% of your paycheck for your entire life", you get an affirmative response.  Not my point anyway.  The reality is SS does not "work" financially from a sustainability perspective, but that's not my point either.  My point is it's a terribly destructive program financially & completely economically inefficient.  It's simply idiotic & should be unconstitutional, but alas that battle was lost decades ago.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's only "unpopular" if you phrase is that way, because as abc noted, who the hell would vote to get rid of it after they're had their money confiscated their entire life.  Nobody.   If you ask it in a manner that says "would you rather keep an extra >6% of your paycheck for your entire life", you get an affirmative response.  Not my point anyway.  The reality is SS does not "work" financially from a sustainability perspective, but that's not my point either.  My point is it's a terribly destructive program financially & completely economically inefficient.  It's simply idiotic & should be unconstitutional, but alas that battle was lost decades ago.



You quoted and responded to the wrong portion of my post.   You simply took the opportunity to whine some more.

This is the part you anti-SS whiners need to answer to effectively.

"Propose something really good if you want to cut it down. Show reform that will produce a better return. That's the sell"

You never do.  It's always a lament about how you as financially brilliant individuals can manage money better than the government.  Well no shit, many of us can and do.  Many cannot though.

Its $8853.60 a year max.  That's the good thing about the tax vs others.  There's a cap.

On a scale of 1 to 10 regarding everything I get taxed on in life that prevents me from investing that potential additional take home income how I normally would?   What I pay in SS tax rates a 1 on the scale.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *"Propose something really good* if you want to cut it down. Show reform that will produce a better return. That's the sell"


No.

It's forced confiscation against people's will.  The fact it's financially destructive just makes it worse, but I would certainly not replace one form of confiscation for another, that's the point you fail to understand.  My "plan" would be to not have any such program taking wages against people's will.  At the very least people should be able to opt out, but of course that would bankrupt the program even sooner than currently modeled.  Yeah, such a great program which may only exist when people are mandatorily forced to be a part of it!

Your comment on SS tax being a 1 on a scale of 10 is mathematically naïve too, it's 6.2% of your paycheck!  Every paycheck.  For life.  It is unfortunately, extremely meaningful, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> alas that battle was lost decades ago.


Decades? How about nearly a century?!!!

Financial genius.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 1, 2021)

abc said:


> Decades? *How about nearly a century?*!!!



Yes, that would be decades ago.

Your desire to start arguments on _"teh inturnetz"_ is truly unrivaled.


----------



## abc (Aug 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> how you as financially brilliant individuals can manage money better than the government.


Not only was he "financially brilliant", wasn't he also a brilliant immunologist on the pandemic too?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> No.
> 
> It's forced confiscation against people's will.  The fact it's financially destructive just makes it worse, but I would certainly not replace one form of confiscation for another, that's the point you fail to understand.  My "plan" would be to not have any such program taking wages against people's will.  At the very least people should be able to opt out, but of course that would bankrupt the program even sooner than currently modeled.  Yeah, such a great program which may only exist when people are mandatorily forced to be a part of it!
> 
> Your comment on SS tax being a 1 on a scale of 10 is mathematically naïve too, it's 6.2% of your paycheck!  Every paycheck.  For life.  It is unfortunately, extremely meaningful, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.


If you can't propose a better solution then just STFU already and quit whining about it

Do better in life such that the 6.2% SS tax (again capped at 142k income) doesn't bum you out so much.  

You constantly swing dick on here about how financially brilliant you are with investing.  If that's the case, you wouldn't be so pissed off about that 6.2% because you're making a satisfactory amount of returns on the money you do have to invest with the net income you have to work with. 

You probably should be more angry at your employer or career choice not paying you what you feel you're worth than getting bent out of shape over that 6.2%.   I basically view that 6.2% like some of the bond products I have in my portfolio.  They don't excite me very much, but it's not lost money and will reliably be there for me when I stop working.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 1, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Your comment on SS tax being a 1 on a scale of 10 is mathematically naïve too, it's 6.2% of your paycheck!  Every paycheck.



Every paycheck until $142k income  Then you don't pay it anymore for the rest of the year.   Again, that's the good thing about it. It's capped.  All of the other income taxes I pay go UP and UP the more I make.   So those rate a 9 for me to be concerned about vs the 1 I rate SS tax.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 1, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Every paycheck until $142k income  Then you don't pay it anymore for the rest of the year.   Again, that's the good thing about it. It's capped.  All of the other income taxes I pay go UP and UP the more I make.   So those rate a 9 for me to be concerned about vs the 1 I rate SS tax.


Just curious as to how many years out of 10, that you feel that the return on any private retirement investments you may have, out preform what you're perceived return on the withholdings from your paycheck the government takes from you and then your employer matches that? 

Pretty sure that I would say that 9yrs out of 10, my private retirement investments outperform my perceived SS withholdings/"investments". And that's before the employer side of my brain effects the thought process of my employee side of my brain as well.

Would "Joe Q Public" be better off with the amount of their SS contributions with employee match in a private say 401k vs in what in theory atleast is their own, personal, SS "account"?  I certainly think so over the entire course of one's say 40yr or so work career...


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Just curious as to how many years out of 10, that you feel that the return on any private retirement investments you may have, out preform what you're perceived return on the withholdings from your paycheck the government takes from you and then your employer matches that?
> 
> Pretty sure that I would say that 9yrs out of 10, my private retirement investments outperform my perceived SS withholdings/"investments". And that's before the employer side of my brain effects the thought process of my employee side of my brain as well.
> 
> Would "Joe Q Public" be better off with the amount of their SS contributions with employee match in a private say 401k vs in what in theory atleast is their own, personal, SS "account"?  I certainly think so over the entire course of one's say 40yr or so work career...



Hard question to answer because standard investments result in a finite amount of cash where as SS not only lasts until the end of your life, it can also benefit your spouse until the end of their life too.  If you work up until full retirement age at 67 and you and your spouse only live to the average age of say 77, then SS wouldn't appear to be that great of a return.  But if one or both of you make it well into your 90s, it does look like a pretty good return.  SS also can't get crushed in a market crash like a 401k or other investments can.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> *Would "Joe Q Public" be better off with the amount of their SS contributions with employee match in a private say 401k vs in what in theory atleast is their own, personal, SS "account"? * I certainly think so over the entire course of one's say 40yr or so work career...



Yes; and it's not even mathematically debatable.   The government cant even confiscate intelligently.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I basically view that 6.2% like some of the *bond products I have in my portfolio.  *



What kind of bonds do you own in 2021?


----------



## NYDB (Aug 2, 2021)

Mods - please have mercy on the world and nuke this entire thread from the internet.    Its the only way to be sure.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yes; and it's not even mathematically debatable.   The government cant even confiscate intelligently.



Confiscate?  Are you one of those "all taxes are theft" libertarians?


----------



## Whitey (Aug 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I figured we'd wouldnt do better than 60%'ish. Even in really bad flu years we dont do much better than 40%. Keep in mind, anyone from birth to age 12 is precluded from vaccination, so that artificially makes the 50% seem worse than it really is.
> 
> EDIT:  I was curious about this so I looked it up.  Under 18 is about 22% of the population.  Assuming a normalized distribution, that is 15% of the population which cannot be vaxxed, meaning 100% of the potential bogey is actually about 85%.  So in reality, at "50% fully vaccinated", it means that 59% of the country who CAN be vaccinated, has been fully vaccinated.  That's not far off from my WAG.



BG -  

I've been trying to figure this out and I thought it would be easy to find.   But I am struggling.    Not sure why.  Maybe you know?  When they are noting people who are considered "unvaccinated", are they including people who had CV19?    I am assuming yes, but wanted to confirm.    And if the answer is "yes" - isn't that a fairly large group (approx 35M) that we really shouldn't be all that worried about whether they get the vaccine or not?    If I had gotten CV19 and had natural immunity - I'm not sure if I would have gotten the vaccine.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> What kind of bonds do you own in 2021?



Very small percentage of my holdings are in a couple of Bond ETF products.  Not a lot.


----------



## skiur (Aug 2, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> Mods - please have mercy on the world and nuke this entire thread from the internet.    Its the only way to be sure.



Umm, did you not notice that one of the main contributors is a mod?


----------



## mikec142 (Aug 2, 2021)

drjeff said:


> The difference is that from an employers standpoint, there have been numerous worker's rights laws that have been passed, especially in the last decade, that have changed what an employer can/can't legally ask an employee. The line between what can and can't be asked, or asked of an employee by an employer has certainly changed on many fronts over time


I'm not 100% sure what point you are trying to make, but there are numerous private and public companies that are requiring their employees to show proof of vax and to come back to the office.  There are tons of colleges that are requiring it too.  University of Indiana has mandated that students be vaccinated and they won a legal challenge to that mandate.  UVM is requiring students to be vaxxed.


----------



## mikec142 (Aug 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> People are stupid when it comes to the math....
> 
> Overall - 165M Vacc given, something like 150K breakthru cases, works out to 0.09%.
> That's about 1 in 1,000 vacc people will have a breakthru case


And...even though there may be 150K breakthrough cases, there's 600+k people who have died!!

I truly don't get the argument...but I could have a significant side effect (extremely rare).  They are more concerned about the rare side effect than the not as rare death.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 2, 2021)

mikec142 said:


> I'm not 100% sure what point you are trying to make, but there are numerous private and public companies that are requiring their employees to show proof of vax and to come back to the office.  There are tons of colleges that are requiring it too.  University of Indiana has mandated that students be vaccinated and they won a legal challenge to that mandate.  UVM is requiring students to be vaxxed.


Some hospitals are even saying NO EXEMPTIONS.
You get the Vacc or you look for another job


----------



## abc (Aug 2, 2021)

2Planker said:


> Some hospitals are even saying NO EXEMPTIONS.
> You get the Vacc or you look for another job


I think that's not the best practice.

Weekly, or even daily test, I can see the point. Mandatory vaccination, when we're seeing it doesn't stop them as transmitters against the new variant? That doesn't make too much sense.


----------



## boston_e (Aug 2, 2021)

abc said:


> I think that's not the best practice.
> 
> Weekly, or even daily test, I can see the point. Mandatory vaccination, when we're seeing it doesn't stop them as transmitters against the new variant? That doesn't make too much sense.


Some colleges are saying basically no exemptions as well (except for maybe a VERY tiny number of people who have a legitimate medial reason), but all the BS "religious exemptions" are not allowed.

Nothing is 100%... it is true that as far as we know vaccinated people can still contract and spread covid.  That does not mean there is still not a layer of protection and that vaccinated people are still less likely to spread it, especially to other vaccinated people.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 2, 2021)

vaccinated people are less likely to get sick and less likely to die. significantly. that's the only information that matters.

I'm at a point where I'm almost glad I can be vaccinated, protected from serious illness or death, but still spread it

you want to not get vaccinated? fine, here's my viral load. have fun with it. ::cough cough::


----------



## boston_e (Aug 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Hard question to answer because standard investments result in a finite amount of cash where as SS not only lasts until the end of your life, it can also benefit your spouse until the end of their life too.  If you work up until full retirement age at 67 and you and your spouse only live to the average age of say 77, then SS wouldn't appear to be that great of a return.  But if one or both of you make it well into your 90s, it does look like a pretty good return.  SS also can't get crushed in a market crash like a 401k or other investments can.



The other unknown here is what the long term societal cost would be to getting rid of social security.  BG, Dr, Jeff or you or I would likely wisely invest that money and potentially do better in the long run.  There is likely a vast segment of the population who will not, and then will be more of a financial burden on society once they have stopped working and have no income (which could for sure affect all of us).


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I'm at a point where I'm almost glad I can be vaccinated, protected from serious illness or death, but still spread it
> 
> you want to not get vaccinated? fine, here's my viral load. have fun with it. ::cough cough::



This is seriously ****** up.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Confiscate?  Are you one of those "all taxes are theft" libertarians?



Not at all.  Taxation is 100% necessary to run a functional society.   Social Security, however, is not.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 2, 2021)

play stupid selfish antisocial games get stupid selfish antisocial prizes.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 2, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I've been trying to figure this out and I thought it would be easy to find.   But I am struggling.    Not sure why.  Maybe you know?  *When they are noting people who are considered "unvaccinated", are they including people who had CV19? *   I am assuming yes, but wanted to confirm.    And if the answer is "yes" - isn't that a fairly large group (approx 35M) that we really shouldn't be all that worried about whether they get the vaccine or not?    If I had gotten CV19 and had natural immunity - I'm not sure if I would have gotten the vaccine.



Yes, but that's not a bad thing statistically, as people who get COVID19 should also get vaccinated.  People who've had 2 doses of an mRNA vaccine are more protected than someone who caught & recovered naturally from COVID.  Given, however, that the naturally contracted COVID cohort does have some protection as you are correctly noting, it is useful to know that number as well, and so you'll often hear virologists lump them together when they speak of herd protection.


----------



## mikec142 (Aug 2, 2021)

Quoted from CNN:

"Neil Barr, the chairman of Davis Polk, one of the largest and most prestigious US law firms, sent a memo to staff Monday morning announcing that all the firm’s employees would need to be vaccinated to return to the office in September or no longer be allowed in the building.
According to the memo obtained by CNN, all employees must prove they are fully vaccinated by Sept. 13. If not, their ID card will be deactivated, and they will not be permitted to enter any of the firm's US offices. The memo adds that the law firm will make accommodations for medical reasons or religious beliefs.
Davis Polk employs approximately 1,000 lawyers around the world, with US offices in New York, California, and Washington, DC"

I have zero issues with this.

As a side note, who here thinks that employees at this firm who refuse to get vaxxed and don't have acceptable medical or religious reasons have the same shot at getting promoted as those who happily get vaxxed?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 2, 2021)

durst organization in nyc (big commercial real estate player, known to most bc of robert durst, but a legit player despite a murderous relative) is saying vax by labor day or be fired. 

good. I'm all for the stratification of society and excluding the selfish anti-social from the benefits and privileges of being a citizen.









						New York real-estate giant The Durst Organization says it will fire non-union workers who fail to get a COVID-19 shot by Labor Day
					

The Durst Organization said the mandate for corporate staff, which has some exemptions, was driven by employees who want "a safer environment."




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## JimG. (Aug 2, 2021)

abc said:


> I think that's not the best practice.
> 
> Weekly, or even daily test, I can see the point. Mandatory vaccination, when we're seeing it doesn't stop them as transmitters against the new variant? That doesn't make too much sense.


It's also pretty senseless to tell health care workers to look for another job in the midst of a global health crisis.

Anybody been to Vermont lately?


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 2, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Some colleges are saying basically no exemptions as well (except for maybe a VERY tiny number of people who have a legitimate medial reason), but all the BS "religious exemptions" are not allowed.
> 
> Nothing is 100%... it is true that as far as we know vaccinated people can still contract and spread covid.  That does not mean there is still not a layer of protection and that vaccinated people are still less likely to spread it, especially to other vaccinated people.


Correct Our Downtown Boston Medical Center is owned by the University, and the President is an MD - No Exceptions

Wife's college (Catholic school) has had about 10% drop out since Vacc's are now required


----------



## abc (Aug 2, 2021)

JimG. said:


> It's also pretty senseless to tell health care workers to look for another job in the midst of a global health crisis.


That's the reason I don't think the mandatory vaccination is going to go too well. 

Right now, about 30% of health care workers are not yet vaccinated. If, after the mandate, all of them don't come to work? Most hospitals will not be able to function properly! 

Same goes to many other companies.

I just don't think it'll work. Headline grabbing, yes. There's already a labor shortage in all fields. fired all the unvaccinated, see what's to come?


----------



## abc (Aug 2, 2021)

Personally, I'm not too bothered by others refusing to vaccinate. I'm not going to hug anyone, or stand face to face in conversation, until I know you're vaccinated. But other than that, I'm willing to take the chance of spending the day in the same room, especially if they've been tested the last day or two. I do have confidence my vaccinated immune system can protect me from getting seriously sick.

Sure, I don't prefer the share a room with the unvaccinated. But there's a line on the sand that I'm unwilling to cross. A vaccine that's only a year old, only approved for emergency use, isn't one I would wish to force on others. I'm getting vaccinated myself, based on my own calculation. But I respect others having a different personal calculation.

That said, if my company is mandating it, I'm not going to say they're wrong. Just that I don't think it'll work too well. I much prefer they just test the hell out of those unvaccinated (and take the cost of the tests out of their pay check, I have no problem with that).


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 2, 2021)

abc said:


> That's the reason I don't think the mandatory vaccination is going to go too well.
> 
> Right now, about 30% of health care workers are not yet vaccinated. If, after the mandate, all of them don't come to work? Most hospitals will not be able to function properly!
> 
> ...


I know someone who has been in their position for over 40 years. She’s in a niche job at a major hospital and has no patient contact. Her family has a genetic predisposition to clotting. She said she’s done if the vaccine becomes mandatory.

I hope sure hope you’re correct.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 2, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Confiscate?  Are you one of those "all taxes are theft" libertarians?


Well, it often is……

And…..wtf is a portfolio?


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Personally, I'm not too bothered by others refusing to vaccinate. I'm not going to hug anyone, or stand face to face in conversation, until I know you're vaccinated. But other than that, I'm willing to take the chance of spending the day in the same room, especially if they've been tested the last day or two. I do have confidence my vaccinated immune system can protect me from getting seriously sick.
> 
> Sure, I don't prefer the share a room with the unvaccinated. But there's a line on the sand that I'm unwilling to cross. A vaccine that's only a year old, only approved for emergency use, isn't one I would wish to force on others. I'm getting vaccinated myself, based on my own calculation. But I respect others having a different personal calculation.
> 
> That said, if my company is mandating it, I'm not going to say they're wrong. Just that I don't think it'll work too well. I much prefer they just test the hell out of those unvaccinated (and take the cost of the tests out of their pay check, I have no problem with that).


Well my issue really isn't with myself getting sick per say from an unvaccinated heathen. It is more about the virus mutating as it spreads more easily through the unvaccinated and we will be stuck in these shitty circumstances where we have to wear masks, can't go out to eat or to any venue that is at full capacity. Also I  hate hearing regurgitated warnings and the same shit everyday and learning nothing new about it.


----------



## Whitey (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Personally, I'm not too bothered by others refusing to vaccinate. I'm not going to hug anyone, or stand face to face in conversation, until I know you're vaccinated. But other than that, I'm willing to take the chance of spending the day in the same room, especially if they've been tested the last day or two. I do have confidence my vaccinated immune system can protect me from getting seriously sick.
> 
> Sure, I don't prefer the share a room with the unvaccinated. But there's a line on the sand that I'm unwilling to cross. A vaccine that's only a year old, only approved for emergency use, *isn't one I would wish to force on others. I'm getting vaccinated myself, based on my own calculation. But I respect others having a different personal calculation.*
> 
> That said, if my company is mandating it, I'm not going to say they're wrong. Just that I don't think it'll work too well. I much prefer they just test the hell out of those unvaccinated (and take the cost of the tests out of their pay check, I have no problem with that).


This is the correct take.   I am in the same boat.   I got it but I am not judging others who chose not to.   I am less concerned about being around unvaccinated people than you are but I am the same as you - I'm not getting that close to you (hugging, sharing food, etc) if I don't know if you've been vaxed or had CV19.   

A lot of you who are dismissing and deriding those who chose not to vaccinate ought to remember that our form of gov't should only be "forcing" the population to do anything only in the most extreme circumstances.   You can debate whether our current situation is "extreme" enough to justify that.   I think not but understand that others will feel differently.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

Honestly at this point, if one really wants to see progress in getting through this current situation, step #1, Dr Fauci needs to resign. While he has had a long and storied career, the simple fact is that his statements about things COVID and how to handle it as a society have at times been quite conflicting, and sometimes even within the same week.  Whenever he comes out with a new update on current "best plans" for handling things, within literally moments some media pundit can easily find a statement he made that goes counter to what he may have just said,

It's time to get a few person in there, so that the messaging can have a clear course, because all of this varaibility, even if in many cases it is warranted due to the evolution of COVID, just ins't helping


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2021)

I don't think it matters who is over the CDC at this point.   You will have the President, members of Congress and Governors that will hear only what they want to believe even though they often have zero background in medicine.  They'll want their constituents to take their filtered messaging over the CDC.   Some have stuck close to the CDC messaging, others have fought them every step of the way.   

And it goes beyond government too.  Plenty of the country trusts their churches or other local leadership voices over State and local government and will do what they say instead. 

Whoever gets put in charge of the CDC will have half the country supporting them and half not.


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## boston_e (Aug 3, 2021)

In fairness to Fauci, Trump and other republicans definitely turned political on him which created distrust among the Trump base.

While Fauci's messaging has not been perfect and there has been some mixed messaging, some on the right have also often turned what was the best recommendation we had at the time into "Fauci was lying" when we learned more and changed recommendations.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 3, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> fucking a. we eradicated smallpox and polio with a sense of national/international urgency and solidarity. we require vaccinations to go to public school. why should this be any different?
> 
> you don't want to be vaccinated? fine. you forego social security, unemployment benefits, medicare/medicaid, and education on the public side. you forfeit the privilege to work for certain companies, the privilege to enter certain private businesses, the privilege to travel on an airplane, etc. on the private side.
> 
> ...



then they should forego paying into social security and medicare/medicaid


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## boston_e (Aug 3, 2021)

Whitey said:


> This is the correct take.   I am in the same boat.   I got it but I am not judging others who chose not to.   I am less concerned about being around unvaccinated people than you are but I am the same as you - I'm not getting that close to you (hugging, sharing food, etc) if I don't know if you've been vaxed or had CV19.
> 
> A lot of you who are dismissing and deriding those who chose not to vaccinate ought to remember that our form of gov't should only be "forcing" the population to do anything only in the most extreme circumstances.   You can debate whether our current situation is "extreme" enough to justify that.   I think not but understand that others will feel differently.


Sure but the reality is there is a VERY tiny percentage of the population with a legitimate reason to not get vaccinated and it is socially irresponsible not to do so.

As soon as it has full FDA approval, I fully expect to see it added to the list of required immunizations for attending school etc.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 3, 2021)

no, no they shouldn't. if you want the privileges and benefits of citizenship then you should be required to be a good citizen.


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

US just hit the 70% vaccination point!

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/A month late. 08/02/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine

A month late. And only partially vaccinated. Still, it's significant. (once a person took the first dose, it's pretty much guarantee the second dose will be taken after).

I don't know why "there's no celebration"! Sure, the Delta variance is making the vaccine less "perfect". But people aren't dying left and right, thanks to the vaccine. It's proven to help sparing the hospital from being overwhelmed.

70% is just a number. But it's a point we aimed originally. We reached it. But sadly, "there's no celebration". Seems like these days, getting silver isn't worth celebrating, Only the gold will do. Everything else is a failure. A nation that's in perpetual disappointment and inadequacy?


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 3, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You quoted and responded to the wrong portion of my post.   You simply took the opportunity to whine some more.
> 
> This is the part you anti-SS whiners need to answer to effectively.
> 
> ...



Take 8400 and put that away for 30 years in a 2% annuity and you can do way better than that with the markets

In 30 years, you will have $4,104,477.82​
If people use their 401k accounts properly they can do that as well.  SS is not for those that can invest properly or save adequately it is really for the poor that did not have good employment or those that lacked discipline and spent all their money all of their lives.  The minimum is not enough to live on though.


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> US just hit the 70% vaccination point!
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/A month late. 08/02/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine
> 
> ...



Just doing some loose math, if there are about 50 million people under the age of 12 in this country currently, that puts the potential number of people vaccinated cuurently at around 280 million, so the 70% number currently represents just under 200 million people in the country who have had atleast 1 dose now, with aaround 140 million or so people either still ineligible based on age or not choosing to (for various reasons) now.

I will be curious to see how much (or how little potentially) the numbers increase when the seemingly likely approval of emergency authroization for the use in those under the age of 12, happens


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## skiur (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> US just hit the 70% vaccination point!
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/A month late. 08/02/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine
> 
> ...



Getting one dose in no way guarantees a second dose.  I know numerous people who have only had one dose and have no plans of getting a second.  I don't really understand their reasoning, but it certainly happens more than you think.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 3, 2021)

yeah the single dose people doesn't make any sense to me...


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## PAabe (Aug 3, 2021)

1 dose will keep you from dying if you otherwise may have

But I agree there is not a whole lot of reason to not the 2nd other than laziness.  Although I would have argued early on it would have made more sense to give as many people as possible 1 shot before going in for 2

There are some people that had difficulty getting to the vax center or filling out the forms that might not return for the 2nd if they were not helped along again - I know some people who are recently immigrated were worried about filling out the paperwork by themselves


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## fbrissette (Aug 3, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Take 8400 and put that away for 30 years in a 2% annuity and you can do way better than that with the markets
> 
> In 30 years, you will have $4,104,477.82​
> If people use their 401k accounts properly they can do that as well.  SS is not for those that can invest properly or save adequately it is really for the poor that did not have good employment or those that lacked discipline and spent all their money all of their lives.  The minimum is not enough to live on though.


Man do I ever wish your maths were right.  I would have retired a while back.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Man do I ever wish your maths were right.  I would have retired a while back.


Yes,  this is what 2% apy gets you at $8400 per year contribution


Interest earned*$ 98,699.88*Total contributions*+ $252,000*Initial deposit*+ $8,400*
*Your total savings*$ 359,099. 88

you would need a 14.7% apy to hit that $4.1M mark


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## 2Planker (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> US just hit the 70% vaccination point!
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/A month late. 08/02/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine
> 
> ...


Ummmm....     That's 70% have received ONE DOSE.
Still need approx 70 Million more folks to complete the series and then add 2 weeks for "Fully Vaccinated".

I hope we can do it, getting the whole country to ideally 75% is still going to take a while.
At least vacc rates are way up in the last week, as people are finally paying attention to the warnings about the severity & transmisability of the Delta variant.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 3, 2021)

NYC = vax proof required for indoor dining and gyms and entertainment venues 

fuck yes.





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

Whitey said:


> I am less concerned about being around unvaccinated people than you are but I am the same as you - I'm not getting that close to you (hugging, sharing food, etc) if I don't know if you've been vaxed or had CV19.


I've already heard of TWO breakthrough infections from personal friends. It's real. (both only experience mild symptoms though). 

I'm not taking any unnecessary risks. 

I've been eating "in" restaurants, seeing doctors, spending short period of time indoors in confined spaces this last month. But going forward, I'm going to minimize such activities to absolute necessity till the Delta variant runs its course.


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Sure but the reality is there is a VERY tiny percentage of the population with a legitimate reason to not get vaccinated and it is socially irresponsible not to do so.


Concern about long term (years) side effect of the vaccine I would considered it "legitimate". 

The "socially irresponsible" part is no longer in the face of the Delta variant. Fully vaccinated people can still transmit the virus even though they don't get very sick. 


boston_e said:


> As soon as it has full FDA approval, I fully expect to see it added to the list of required immunizations for attending school etc.


Unless I missed it, I only heard of ONE out of all the vaccines are even *applying* for full authorization 9beyond the emergency status)


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Concern about long term (years) side effect of the vaccine I would considered it "legitimate".
> 
> The "socially irresponsible" part is no longer in the face of the Delta variant. Fully vaccinated people can still transmit the virus even though they don't get very sick.
> 
> Unless I missed it, I only heard of ONE out of all the vaccines are even *applying* for full authorization 9beyond the emergency status)


Moderna and Pfizer have announced that they're both going to be applying for full authorization. Pfizer I believe has already started that process and Moderna announced late last week that they were imminently going to start that process.

As for long term convcerns, everyone is entilted to their points of view. Personally, I'd be more concerned with the long term side effects from having a "bad" case of COVID over the POTENTIAL side effects of the vaccine,, and in both cases, vaccinated or not, the side effects seem to happen in VERY low instances, even for the "most vulnerable" demographics


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## 2Planker (Aug 3, 2021)

Pt are begging for the Vacc, when they're admitted.....
"i kinda knew I should have got it a while ago."


Very hard to tell someone "it's a little too late for that now"


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As for long term convcerns, everyone is entilted to their points of view. Personally, I'd be more concerned with the long term side effects from having a "bad" case of COVID over the POTENTIAL side effects of the vaccine,, and in both cases, vaccinated or not, the side effects seem to happen in VERY low instances, even for the "most vulnerable" demographics


It's precisely because the side effects are relatively rare in both cases that for the young demographic it may makes sense to wait instead of act right away. 

Frankly, if I were young (20-30) and have the option of working from home, I'd wait. Though I wouldn't be out partying either. 

Like it or not, a lot of the time, with medical stuff, it's best to do nothing unless there's a clear evidence and strong motivation to do something. The benefit of doing anything must be justified. For the young and healthy, the benefit is relatively small. So why take the chance of any risk associated with the new vaccine? At the minimum, those getting the vaccine later in the year have a chance to get the improved version that are more effective against the Delta variant.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 3, 2021)

Its very simple.  Get the shot or risk getting COVID so bad you die. 

People have made their decision.  Lets move on as a country, as a world and get back to as normal as possible.


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## cdskier (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Unless I missed it, I only heard of ONE out of all the vaccines are even *applying* for full authorization 9beyond the emergency status)





drjeff said:


> Moderna and Pfizer have announced that they're both going to be applying for full authorization. Pfizer I believe has already started that process and Moderna announced late last week that they were imminently going to start that process.



Pfizer applied May 7th and was granted priority review status a couple weeks ago. Moderna applied June 1 for full approval...


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> It is more about the virus mutating as it spreads more easily through the unvaccinated and we will be stuck in these shitty circumstances where we have to wear masks, can't go out to eat or to any venue that is at full capacity.


That maybe true next year.

For now, the new variants mostly pop up overseas, because the majority of the world's population is still largely unvaccinated. Until that situation change, we're at the mercy of the virus. Vaccine is the only sure way of protection (to those who choose to vaccinate).


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## boston_e (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> The "socially irresponsible" part is no longer in the face of the Delta variant. Fully vaccinated people can still transmit the virus even though they don't get very sick.


Just because fully vaccinated people can transmit the virus does not mean that the likelihood is the same as someone who is not vaccinated doing so.  As far as we know at this time the vaccine still provides a layer of protection for both contracting and transmitting the virus.  I believe the socially responsible component stands.


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

boston_e said:


> I believe the socially responsible component stands.


It may still stands, but on rather shaky ground.



boston_e said:


> *As far as we know at this time *the vaccine still provides a layer of protection for both contracting and transmitting the virus


As we've seen so many times in this pandemic, what we think "we know" can change as evidence emerges. The evidence for vaccination on transmission is incomplete at best.


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Pfizer applied May 7th and was granted priority review status a couple weeks ago. Moderna applied June 1 for full approval...


Thank you for the clarification on the timeframe.  Guessing it was J&J that is now applying for full status, or maybe it was the news that Astra Zeneca is going to seek our emergency use status in the US that was announced last week. Tough to keep all the players and the timelines correct!


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## kbroderick (Aug 3, 2021)

boston_e said:


> Just because fully vaccinated people can transmit the virus does not mean that the likelihood is the same as someone who is not vaccinated doing so.  As far as we know at this time the vaccine still provides a layer of protection for both contracting and transmitting the virus.  I believe the socially responsible component stands.


More specifically, if the vaccine is even 5% effective at preventing *any* infection, it would reduce the chance of spreading by at least that amount. With the increased R-value for Delta, plus the expectation that the vaccines are substantially effective in preventing infections, that alone is fairly conclusive in that they would *reduce* the chance of spread; the unknowns are (a) how much do they reduce it by preventing the vaccinated from becoming infected, and (b) how much (if any) do they reduce it by preventing the virus from reproducing effectively in vaccinated hosts.

The presumed answer to (b) when the CDC dropped the masking recommendation was "substantially, possibly entirely"; with more recent data from delta infections, the apparent answer is "not enough to be confident about going unmasked." That's particularly significant for huge swaths of the population who have higher-risk folks in their lives—children (who are not yet eligible for vaccination), pregnant women (who are eligible for vaccination but for whom even an asymptomatic infection could affect their ability to be near their newborn), those with compromised immune systems (for whom vaccination appears to be less effective), etc.

A lot of these questions would be far easier to answer if we had conclusively good treatments for Covid-19 infections, because then the ethical issues with exposing people through experimentation would be substantially reduced or eliminated. Unfortunately, we don't, so putting an infectious person in a room with a control group and a masked group (for example) isn't ethical.


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> It may still stands, but on rather shaky ground.
> 
> 
> As we've seen so many times in this pandemic, what we think "we know" can change as evidence emerges. The evidence for vaccination on transmission is incomplete at best.



In the limited time that both COVID and the vaccines have been around and studied, the (as of now) longterm data suggests that the potential side effects from getting COVID are more numerous and severe than the potential side effects from any of the vaccines. 

In BOTH instances, the incidence of side effects (short term or longterm thus far) are lower with the vaccines than with the COVID disease process, and rare in either situation, even for the "most vulnerable" of demographics

As the number of vaccinated people has gone up, the number of fatalitues from COVID as well as the number of new cases of COVID that are significant enough to require hospitalization has gone down.

We truly won't know longterm effects data both the the vaccinated and unvaccinated who contract COVID for years.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 3, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> putting an infectious person in a room with a control group and a masked group (for example) isn't ethical.



Guarantee you China has done this somewhere, likely with its' prison population, and knows the answer (which it wont share).


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## boston_e (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> As for long term concerns, everyone is entitled to their points of view. Personally, I'd be more concerned with the long term side effects from having a "bad" case of COVID over the POTENTIAL side effects of the vaccine,, and in both cases, vaccinated or not, the side effects seem to happen in VERY low instances, even for the "most vulnerable" demographics



In the history of vaccines has there ever been a case of some long term side effect that showed up much later on in life?  Everything I've read seems to indicate that if there is a side effect it would make its appearance pretty shortly after receiving the vaccine (for example the blood clots in the J&J).

Has there ever been a case of some unknown side effect from a vaccine that suddenly appeared something like 10 years later?


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Guarantee you China has done this somewhere, likely with its' prison population, and knows the answer (which it wont share).


Serious allegation with zero evidence. Yet spouted with "guarantee" confidence, by a "brilliant immunologist"


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

boston_e said:


> In the history of vaccines has there ever been a case of some long term side effect that showed up much later on in life?  Everything I've read seems to indicate that if there is a side effect it would make its appearance pretty shortly after receiving the vaccine (for example the blood clots in the J&J).
> 
> Has there ever been a case of some unknown side effect from a vaccine that suddenly appeared something like 10 years later?



Short of the hype and later fully disproven as false claims of the "link" between vaccines and autism, I can't think of any either off the top of my head.

Fully agree that it seems like any vaccine side effects tend to manifest in the short term after vaccination, rather than years down the road


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Serious allegation with zero evidence. Yet spouted with "guarantee" confidence, by a "brilliant immunologist"



Again, not taking your "start an argument on the internet" desperation bait, so one post only and the thing I'll note is you said the same thing a year ago when I predicted we'd learn the virus started in the L4 Wuhan biosafety facility, you called that a conspiracy theory etc...  You have a great track record of being wrong. 

My comment is based on what we definitively know goes on in Chinese prisons re: medical experimentation, and you obviously having no knowledge of this fact just publicly demonstrates your ignorance.


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> when I predicted we'd learn the virus started in the L4 Wuhan biosafety facility,


You've "proved" your prediction was "right" by your non-existent of evidence.

Enough said.



> you called that a conspiracy theory etc... You have a great track record of being wrong.


Many here were baffled how the right wing covid-denier and vaccine refusnik managed to perpetuate their *conspiracy* *theory*. Thanks for the clear demonstration of how it can be done.


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> You've "proved" your prediction was "right" by your non-existent of evidence.
> 
> Enough said.


ABC, I think you missed the conext of BG's post, in that it seems like he was inferring that a year ago, when he postulated that the source of the virus likely was from inside a Level 4 Coronavirus research lab in Wuhan, that many said at that time that there was no way that that could be true and that the virus definitely orgnated in a wet market in Wuhan.  So many would give zero credibility to the lab leak theory and all the credibility to the wet market theory that was put forth to the media by the Chinese Communist Party, even though there was no actual evidence of this being the case, just official state word from the CCP.

Now a year later, even those who were adamant last year that this wasn't a lab leak, are acknowledging that this virus likely has man made origins, from the lab that was doing gain of function reserach, and that a lab leak is the probable origin, regardless of what the CCP is saying.

BG appears to be correct with his comments a year or so ago, and you appear to be wrong with your feeling that the lab leak was a conspiracy theory. Will there ever be 100% concrete evidence of the exact cause, probably not as long as the current folks running the CCP are in control, howver there sure seems to be an ever increase preponderance of evidence that COVID originated from a lab and not a wet market.  

Sometimes the ability to acknowledge that one's initial impression on something didn't end up being correct is a much better way to learn and advance things than hanging onto something when it doesn't add up as new information becomes available


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## cdskier (Aug 3, 2021)

boston_e said:


> In the history of vaccines has there ever been a case of some long term side effect that showed up much later on in life?  Everything I've read seems to indicate that if there is a side effect it would make its appearance pretty shortly after receiving the vaccine (for example the blood clots in the J&J).
> 
> Has there ever been a case of some unknown side effect from a vaccine that suddenly appeared something like 10 years later?



Here's the answer from a prominent expert in the field of vaccines and vaccine safety...



> The most serious vaccine side effects in history have all been caught within six weeks, said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital in Philadelphia and a member of the FDA's Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee.
> "I would say, please tell me what vaccine has ever been shown to cause a long-term side effect that was not picked up in the first two months," said Offit, a co-creator of the rotavirus vaccine who has studied vaccinology for more than four decades.



Granted there's always a first for everything, but the overwhelming historical evidence of vaccines says it is not likely.


----------



## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Now a year later, even those who were adamant last year that this wasn't a lab leak, are acknowledging that this virus likely has man made origins, from the lab that was doing gain of function reserach, and that a lab leak is the probable origin, regardless of what the CCP is saying.


Source please?

I'm not going to "believe" anything except what can be supported by evidence. If, the genetic analysis indicates it's man made, NOW. I'll change my view to keep up with the scientific evidence. However, a year ago, there's no such evidence. BG may have been "right" in his believe by coincidence. (a year and a half ago, he also insist no young healthy Italians had died in their outbreak too) Like the sayinggoes, a stopped clock are right twice a day!

He's insistence on presenting a "theory" as FACT is entirely against scientific methodology. In fact, many conspiracy theory are using that very approach, that there's a thin veneer of "evidence" to PART of their 'theory", therefore their theory must be "right".

Vaccine being harmful? Of course it's possible, however remote that possibility. That's what vaccine refusal messages are based on. Is there a tiny bit of such possibility? Is that a good base on the conspiracy theory that the government is planting something in our body to remotely control us in the future?


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> Source please?
> 
> I'm not going to "believe" anything except what can be supported by evidence. If, the genetic analysis indicates it's man made, NOW. I'll change my view to keep up with the scientific evidence. However, a year ago, there's no such evidence. BG may have been "right" in his believe by coincidence. (a year and a half ago, he also insist no young healthy Italians had died in their outbreak too) Like the sayinggoes, a stopped clock are right twice a day!
> 
> ...



From the Wallstreet Journal, not exactly a right wing conspiracy publication by any means. Yes, it was one of their opinion pieces, howvere if you read the science they used to formulate their position, it's pretty strong









						Opinion | The Science Suggests a Wuhan Lab Leak
					

The Covid-19 pathogen has a genetic footprint that has never been observed in a natural coronavirus.




					www.wsj.com
				




And another one from Vanity Fair, who has been publishing some solid investigative journalism pieces lately









						The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19’s Origins
					

Throughout 2020, the notion that the novel coronavirus leaked from a lab was off-limits. Those who dared to push for transparency say toxic politics and hidden agendas kept us in the dark.




					www.vanityfair.com
				




Heck, even CNN via a Senior Biden official is saying that the lab leak theory certainly seems to have some validity









						Senior Biden officials finding that Covid lab leak theory as credible as natural origins explanation | CNN Politics
					

Senior Biden administration officials overseeing an intelligence review into the origins of the coronavirus now believe the theory that the virus accidentally escaped from a lab in Wuhan is at least as credible as the possibility that it emerged naturally in the wild -- a dramatic shift from a...




					www.cnn.com


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## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> From the Wallstreet Journal, not exactly a right wing conspiracy publication by any means. Yes, it was one of their opinion pieces, howvere if you read the science they used to formulate their position, it's pretty strong
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't able to access the WSJ article as it's paywalled.

But the Vanity Fair article, while long on the cover-up effort, presented no evidence to support the man-made origin theory.

The last piece from CNN repeatedly mentioned there's no new evidence emerging.

"_Little new evidence has emerged to move the needle in one direction or another, these people said. But the fact that the lab leak theory is being seriously considered by top Biden officials is noteworthy and comes amid a growing openness to the idea *even though most scientists who study coronaviruses and who have investigated the origins of the pandemic say the evidence strongly supports a natural origin*._"

Only difference now being that since the conspiracy theorist, AKA Trump and his political cohorts, are kicked to the side, there may possibly a potential opportunity to actually examine the true origin of the virus, in which ALL possibility should be examined. Most notably, even if a theory had once been adopted by conspiracy theorist, doesn't disqualify it from further investigating.

That's how science is being conducted. It doesn't make a conspiracy theorist into a scientist.


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## Smellytele (Aug 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Here's the answer from a prominent expert in the field of vaccines and vaccine safety...
> 
> 
> 
> Granted there's always a first for everything, but the overwhelming historical evidence of vaccines says it is not likely.


Not that I want to defend ABC but these (Pfizer and Moderna) are new types of vaccines mRNA


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Not that I want to defend ABC but these (Pfizer and Moderna) are new types of vaccines mRNA


Which arguably have had less initial "severe" side effects than the J&J vaccine which is based on the "old school" adenovirus virus based vaccines...

And frankly I fully feel that the actions the CDC put forth for that roughly 10 day time frame where they temporarily halted use of the J&J vaccine took the buzz phrase "out of an abundance of caution" to the nth degree, and arguably caused added vaccination hesitancy amongst some, who may have chosen to get vaccinated, but changed their minds and may still not have been vaccinated.


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## drjeff (Aug 3, 2021)

abc said:


> I wasn't able to access the WSJ article as it's paywalled.
> 
> But the Vanity Fair article, while long on the cover-up effort, presented no evidence to support the man-made origin theory.
> 
> ...


Do you honestly think that the Chinese Communist Party will be openly forthcoming with the complete amount of information needed to conduct an accurate investigation into the true origins of COVID? 

I would put about as much believability into the truth of the information they release to the World as I put in their early on believability of their death counts from COVID for a long time being at less than 10,000.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 3, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Not that I want to defend ABC but these (Pfizer and Moderna) are new types of vaccines mRNA


They've been studied and researched for several decades now. Just because it hasn't been commercially used doesn't mean it is really "new".  Clinical trials of various mRNA vaccines have been going on for about a decade even in humans. If there were long-term safety impacts of mRNA vaccine technology itself, we'd very likely have known about it by now (unless it is something that takes 20-30 years to show up, which is extremely unlikely given how the mRNA vaccine actually works).

Honestly mRNA is one of the most promising and exciting advances in vaccine technology in ages. Not long before COVID there were some companies starting to make some significant investments in it because they realized the potential it had. I see that trend not only continuing, but accelerating. Look for some major investment in mRNA technology from some of the key players in Pharma (i.e. just look at a couple of Sanofi's recent announcements regarding mRNA and acquisitions...)


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Short of the hype and later fully disproven as false claims of the "link" between vaccines and autism, I can't think of any either off the top of my head.
> 
> Fully agree that it seems like any vaccine side effects tend to manifest in the short term after vaccination, rather than years down the road


There is a trust fund established along time ago to compensate people who have been injured by vaccines 




__





						About the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | HRSA
					

The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (PDF - 312 KB), as amended, created the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system. It provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. Even in cases in which...




					www.hrsa.gov
				




I think it’s a personal choice , roll your dice one way or another.


----------



## abc (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Do you honestly think that the Chinese Communist Party will be openly forthcoming with the complete amount of information needed to conduct an accurate investigation into the true origins of COVID?
> 
> I would put about as much believability into the truth of the information they release to the World as I put in their early on believability of their death counts from COVID for a long time being at less than 10,000.


Communist country not being transparent is nothing new.

But just because the information isn't available doesn't means the hypothesis of man-made vaccine is TRUE.

Those are two unrelated things.

Further more, remember there's been many scaremongering story going on about the Soviet "communist evils" during the cold war years. Some of them were later (after the Berlin wall fell) reveal to be true. But some of them were just made up.


----------



## machski (Aug 3, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Do you honestly think that the Chinese Communist Party will be openly forthcoming with the complete amount of information needed to conduct an accurate investigation into the true origins of COVID?
> 
> I would put about as much believability into the truth of the information they release to the World as I put in their early on believability of their death counts from COVID for a long time being at less than 10,000.


One these lines, given the technology available today, how is it that they haven't been able to genetically trace this virus back to it's first leap to humans yet?  We should by now have a good indication of jump off species, but nope, nothing on that front.   Makes an engineered virus much more plausible now.  But regardless, China was the origin vector and they won't release enough to the rest of us whether it be manufactured and accidental release or natural jump to fully find the origin.  They should be severely penalized by the rest of the world for that given the economic disruption globally.  Having been able to trace the first human vector could very well have helped with treatments especially.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 3, 2021)

cdskier said:


> They've been studied and researched for several decades now. Just because it hasn't been commercially used doesn't mean it is really "new".  Clinical trials of various mRNA vaccines have been going on for about a decade even in humans. If there were long-term safety impacts of mRNA vaccine technology itself, we'd very likely have known about it by now (unless it is something that takes 20-30 years to show up, which is extremely unlikely given how the mRNA vaccine actually works).
> 
> Honestly mRNA is one of the most promising and exciting advances in vaccine technology in ages. Not long before COVID there were some companies starting to make some significant investments in it because they realized the potential it had. I see that trend not only continuing, but accelerating. Look for some major investment in mRNA technology from some of the key players in Pharma (i.e. just look at a couple of Sanofi's recent announcements regarding mRNA and acquisitions...)





cdskier said:


> They've been studied and researched for several decades now. Just because it hasn't been commercially used doesn't mean it is really "new".  Clinical trials of various mRNA vaccines have been going on for about a decade even in humans. If there were long-term safety impacts of mRNA vaccine technology itself, we'd very likely have known about it by now (unless it is something that takes 20-30 years to show up, which is extremely unlikely given how the mRNA vaccine actually works).
> 
> Honestly mRNA is one of the most promising and exciting advances in vaccine technology in ages. Not long before COVID there were some companies starting to make some significant investments in it because they realized the potential it had. I see that trend not only continuing, but accelerating. Look for some major investment in mRNA technology from some of the key players in Pharma (i.e. just look at a couple of Sanofi's recent announcements regarding mRNA and acquisitions...)


Look at Moderna stock (MRNA) over the last 16 months.
March 2020 it was around $25/share. Today it hit $386/share.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2021)

Pfizer must be jealous.  Stock closed at $45.68 today.  It really hasn't moved much.  Was about $42 around the time it got it's EUA.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 3, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pfizer must be jealous.  Stock closed at $45.68 today.  It really hasn't moved much.  Was about $42 around the time it got it's EUA.


Not particularly surprising considering the vaccine is really BioNTech's and not Pfizer's. Pfizer just helped with logistics, manufacturing, and regulatory type stuff. BioNTech's stock is through the roof just like Moderna...


----------



## machski (Aug 4, 2021)

cdskier said:


> Not particularly surprising considering the vaccine is really BioNTech's and not Pfizer's. Pfizer just helped with logistics, manufacturing, and regulatory type stuff. BioNTech's stock is through the roof just like Moderna...


I would also guess the number of shares out there of Pfizer vastly outnumber both BioNTech and Moderna's. Plus, Pfizer is an established big pharm with much broader product lines so one successful vaccine wouldn't necessarily move their price needle.  On the other hand, this is Moderna's first approved vaccine I believe.  That would move their price needle quite drastically, going from pure R&D company to a company pumping out product.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 4, 2021)

machski said:


> I would also guess the number of shares out there of Pfizer vastly outnumber both BioNTech and Moderna's. Plus, Pfizer is an established big pharm with much broader product lines so one successful vaccine wouldn't necessarily move their price needle.  On the other hand, this is Moderna's first approved vaccine I believe.  That would move their price needle quite drastically, going from pure R&D company to a company pumping out product.




When you consider that some of Pfizer's drug and OTC health products they manufacture include Advil, Celebrex, Diflucan, Robitussin, Viagra, Chapstick, Preparation H and Chantix, certainly agree that the effects on their stock price shouldn't be as dramatic as the effect on Moderna who basically is just focused on MRNA based therapies and vaccines in it's just over a decade since it's been a company


----------



## kingslug (Aug 4, 2021)

Why is it so hard to believe that this virus came from a lab that creates and studies..this virus?
The minute I found out about the lab I pinned it on them...100% circumstantial evidence..but ..why not..it makes sense.


----------



## abc (Aug 4, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that this virus came from a lab that creates and studies..this virus?
> The minute I found out about the lab I pinned it on them...100% circumstantial evidence..but ..why not..it makes sense.


It's not hard to believe it COULD come from a lab.

But it's one thing to suspect something than to say it IS that, without evidence.

You come to an accident site, found someone bleeding and another standing nearby. The bystander maybe the cause of the accident, or a rescuer. Do you immediately jump all over that bystander and say "You hit that person, unless you can prove you didn't"?


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 4, 2021)

abc said:


> You come to an accident site, found someone bleeding and another standing nearby. The bystander maybe the cause of the accident, or a rescuer. Do you immediately jump all over that bystander and say "You hit that person, unless you can prove you didn't"?


Actually you look at skin color first before deciding. 

If the person has orange skin you automatically think there guilty


----------



## drjeff (Aug 4, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that this virus came from a lab that creates and studies..this virus?
> The minute I found out about the lab I pinned it on them...100% circumstantial evidence..but ..why not..it makes sense.



I thought that John Stewart, whom by no means was a fan of the previous administration, summed things up quite well during his appearnce on Colbert (also not a fan of the previous administration) from about a month ago.

If you haven't seen this before, it's worth the 8 or so minutes, and full of a mixtures of laughs as well as a few "start thinking for yourself please!" moments!


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 4, 2021)

All good points about Pfizer, But it's Moderna on fire again today. Way over 400. Love it


----------



## cdskier (Aug 4, 2021)

2Planker said:


> All good points about Pfizer, But it's Moderna on fire again today. Way over 400. Love it


BioNTech is up $57 from yesterday at the moment and also currently over 400.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 4, 2021)

abc said:


> It's not hard to believe it COULD come from a lab.
> 
> But it's one thing to suspect something than to say it IS that, without evidence.
> 
> You come to an accident site, found someone bleeding and another standing nearby. The bystander maybe the cause of the accident, or a rescuer. Do you immediately jump all over that bystander and say "You hit that person, unless you can prove you didn't"?


True, there might not be evidence that meets YOUR standard.  Technically OJ didn't kill his wife and Bill Cosby didn't rape any women either, but you can put 2 and 2 together, as you can in the case of the lab


----------



## abc (Aug 4, 2021)

icecoast1 said:


> True, there might not be evidence that meets YOUR standard.  Technically OJ didn't kill his wife and Bill Cosby didn't rape any women either, but you can put 2 and 2 together, as you can in the case of the lab


Equally, there're innocents in jail for crimes they didn't commit, just because the jury "put 2 and 2 together" on questionable "evidence".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 4, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Why is it so hard to believe that this virus came from a lab that creates and studies..this virus?
> The minute I found out about the lab I pinned it on them...100% circumstantial evidence..but ..why not..it makes sense.



The lab is literally right down the street from the outbreak.  It's just a few kilometers, lol.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 4, 2021)

I got my vaccine but I’d never shame someone that is hesitant and has safety concerns.

If anything, I’d say people that shaming others for that and are emotional about others getting one are way too trustworthy of our government and big pharma. Like, almost embarrassingly naive.

Ever hear of these government run studies?









						40 Years of Human Experimentation in America: The Tuskegee Study
					

Starting in 1932, 600 African American men from Macon County, Alabama were enlisted to partake in a scientific experiment on syphilis. The “Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male,” was conducted by the United States Public Health Service (USPHS) and involved blood tests, x-rays...



					www.mcgill.ca


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 4, 2021)

Here’s another time US citizens were told to line up for something sketchy. These are just two examples that popped into my head but I’d bet there’s a whole lot more.









						These Atomic Bomb Tests Used U.S. Troops as Guinea Pigs
					

Operation Desert Rock was the codename for a series of military tests in the 1950s aimed at understanding the effects of atomic radiation on ground troops. In total, over 50,000 U.S. soldiers were exposed to 69 radioactive blasts




					www.smithsonianmag.com


----------



## ThatGuy (Aug 4, 2021)

__





						Unethical human experimentation in the United States - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 4, 2021)

No

All Anti-Covid vaxers really should be shamed unless they have legitimate health conditions that a DOCTOR suggests should give you pause.  Real doctors, not Tucker Carlson or Alex Jones 

 If you think this is some kinda human experimentation Psyop at this point, you're a moron.  And you are responsible for delaying a return to normal.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 4, 2021)

Sorry guys, the "normal" boat sailed long ago and it isn't coming back.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 4, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Sorry guys, the "normal" boat sailed long ago and it isn't coming back.


Fuck that

I won't give up


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 4, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> No
> 
> All Anti-Covid vaxers really should be shamed unless they have legitimate health conditions that a DOCTOR suggests should give you pause.  Real doctors, not Tucker Carlson or Alex Jones
> 
> If you think this is some kinda human experimentation Psyop at this point, you're a moron.  And you are responsible for delaying a return to normal.


Well, that was aggressive.

all I said is it’s not that hard to understand or feel


deadheadskier said:


> No
> 
> All Anti-Covid vaxers really should be shamed unless they have legitimate health conditions that a DOCTOR suggests should give you pause.  Real doctors, not Tucker Carlson or Alex Jones
> 
> If you think this is some kinda human experimentation Psyop at this point, you're a moron.  And you are responsible for delaying a return to normal.


Well that was aggressive.

All I’m saying is that it’s not that hard to understand people’s reluctancy, it’s called empathy.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 4, 2021)

I have no empathy for Anti-Covid vaxers

None

No quarter


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I have no empathy for Anti-Covid vaxers
> 
> None
> 
> No quarter


“If the virus doesn’t kill ya then we will”
blood thirsty much? 

there are numerous examples of this government experimenting on humans and if your relatives were involved in the experimentation you might be reluctant too

I don’t believe this is an experiment but I certainly understand there are legitimate personal experiences that make some people hesitant.

forcing people to take medical treatment against there will is such a disgusting thought to me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

You're right, probably should have let Polio, Smallpox etc run its course. 

The examples of vaccination benefit to society FAR outpace the instances of Bill Gates 5G Big Pharma global conspiracies.

Look if people want to be dumb in the face of the overwhelming evidence that these vaccines are extremely beneficial to society, that's their choice.

But freedom works both ways.  If businesses, schools etc, want to refuse service to those folks, that's fair too.   

Right now you've got health systems in Florida and elsewhere having to shut down numerous operations and divert much of their resources AGAIN to Covid care.  That's an unnecessary societal cost that there should be minimal tolerance for.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> You're right, probably should have let Polio, Smallpox etc run its course.
> 
> The examples of vaccination benefit to society FAR outpace the instances of Bill Gates 5G Big Pharma global conspiracies.
> 
> ...


We should have patience and understanding for people who are gender confused (gender identity is just one example) and in some cases pay for them to have procedures, some would view as an “unnecessary societal cost”, to help them feel comfortable in this world but if your mentally retarded uncle was sent to Staten Island in the 50’s and given hepatitis you get “no quarter”?

caveat emptor: I have empathy for people who have gender identity issues as I do for all humans regardless of their condition


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

A step further - the anti vax crowd should be rounded up and sent to camps where they can be concentrated away from the rest of us.

fuck these swine.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

There have been so many mixed messages sent by the government . " Don't wear a mask " Where a mask" " Where two masks " . " Once your vaccinated you don't need a mask anymore" .  The explanation given is "the science is evolving" .  While the Canadian border is closed the Southern border  is wide open and  literally a million unvaccinated and a large percentage positive people have crossed and with the assistance of "Our government" be transported to other states .  
Then the Government says look at these states rising Covid rates ....We must act and impose more restrictions  ....WTF ? 

Trust us and get Vaccinated ....???? I can see why people don't .


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Way to turn it up to 11 with hyperbole and false equivalencies.  

I have empathy for trans people as well.  My good friend Amy (born Ryan) isn't spreading her "trans" in businesses and schools causing them to shutdown and get people sick.  The hormone therapy she receives isn't causing hospitals to delay care for other people. 

Again, freedom works both ways.  If an individual chooses to refuse the vaccine out of irrational fear, that's fine.  But businesses, schools etc, also should have the freedom to protect their staff and bottom line by requiring a vaccine.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> There have been so many mixed messages sent by the government . " Don't wear a mask " Where a mask" " Where two masks " . " Once your vaccinated you don't need a mask anymore" .  The explanation given is "the science is evolving" .  While the Canadian border is closed the Southern border  is wide open and  literally a million unvaccinated and a large percentage positive people have crossed and with the assistance of "Our government" be transported to other states .
> Then the Government says look at these states rising Covid rates ....We must act and impose more restrictions  ....WTF ?
> 
> Trust us and get Vaccinated ....???? I can see why people don't .



The current entrance policies for the Southern and Northern borders differ?  Please explain


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> A step further - the anti vax crowd should be rounded up and sent to camps where they can be concentrated away from the rest of us.
> 
> fuck these swine.


Sorry...that's a line I won't cross or ever support crossing. 

I will 100% support restrictions on things unvaccinated "want" to do though (i.e. I support restaurants requiring proof of vaccination to eat there, concerts requiring it to attend, airlines requiring it to fly, etc). You put enough limits on what people can do if they choose to not get the vaccine and it'll put pressure at least on a good number of people to do it without an actual "mandate" from the government. I'd also support financial incentives (i.e. surcharges from insurance companies for people that aren't vaccinated just like many insurance policies have surcharges for smokers).


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The current entrance policies for the Southern and Northern borders differ?  Please explain


Legal crossings no . Illegal yes . Nobody should be allowed in that isn’t willing to get vaccinated!
30% of illegals are not accepting the vaccine and are still being transported to other states! 

Canada finally opening to vaccinated US citizens August 9th .


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Way to turn it up to 11 with hyperbole and false equivalencies.
> 
> Again, freedom works both ways.  If an individual chooses to refuse the vaccine out of irrational fear, that's fine.  But businesses, schools etc, also should have the freedom to protect their staff and bottom line by requiring a vaccine.


there are no false equivalencies when it comes to personal healthcare. People should and are allowed to choose.

business’s are fine to set what ever rules they need/want to. People are free not to work there.

Schools are totally a different matter. Education is a right in this country. Just ask any number of progressives.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Both the private College and public University I attended required vaccines.  I didn't have a problem with that (and it's never been an issue of intense national debate) and I also wouldn't have a problem with the same policy for K-12.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> I didn't have a problem with that…… I also wouldn't have a problem with the same policy


Are you really that self absorbed?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Are you really that self absorbed?



Excuse me? Lol

The self absorbed folks are the fuck your feelings, I'm going to do whatever I want even if it hurts other people crowd.  

Want me to hold the mirror for you?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

thats rich. some asshole trumpeting anti-vax bullshit calling the people who give a fuck about getting society back to some semblance of normal 'self-absorbed'

fuck you. seriously. fuck you in the eye ball with a rusty screwdriver.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Excuse me? Lol
> 
> The self absorbed folks are the fuck your feelings, I'm going to do whatever I want even if it hurts other people crowd.
> 
> Want me to hold the mirror for you?


Pretty sure you’re in the “fuck your feelings” crowd not me. I am trying to be respectful of people’s concerns, you want full compliance regardless of anyone’s person issues.

FWIW: I am fully vaccinated and have pushed all my loved ones to do the same.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> thats rich. some asshole trumpeting anti-vax bullshit calling the people who give a fuck about getting society back to some semblance of normal 'self-absorbed'
> 
> fuck you. seriously. fuck you in the eye ball with a rusty screwdriver.


I am not anti-vax at all

and sorry to let you in on the secret we won’t be pre-pandemic “normal” in 50 years if by then


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Pretty sure you’re in the “fuck your feelings” crowd not me. I am trying to be respectful of people’s concerns, you want full compliance regardless of anyone’s person issues.
> 
> FWIW: I am fully vaccinated and have pushed all my loved ones to do the same.



How many times do I need to explain this to you Andrew?

I have now said multiple times that if people wish to not get vaccinated, that's their choice.

But I also support businesses, schools etc , to choose to not allow access to those people.

Again, freedom works both ways 

There's actually a restaurant in California I believe that is marketing that they don't want vaccinated people to enter.  Their choice. I'll dine elsewhere.   If someone wants to open a vaccine free school, they can do that too.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> How many times do I need to explain this to you Andrew?
> 
> I have now said multiple times that if people wish to not get vaccinated, that's their choice.
> 
> ...


I am not arguing any of those points except public schools and if public schools want only vax’d kids they need to provide for those who for what ever personal reasons can’t/won’t get vax’d


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

that's an absurd position. public schools have required vaccinations for decades. these assholes shouldn't be accommodated, they should be exterminated.


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> some asshole trumpeting anti-vax bullshit calling the people who give a fuck about getting society back to some semblance of normal 'self-absorbed'


Your "feeling" is misplaced. 

I have no patience for those spreading the misinformation. But you can't just round all the vaccine hesitant people in with the anti-vaxxers. 

The government has been sending mixed messages. Some southern governors are FORBIDDING businesses not serving the unvaccinated. If that's not the ultimate anti-vax movement, I don't know what is. And that's "from the government"!


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I am not arguing any of those points except public schools and if public schools want only vax’d kids they need to provide for those who for what ever personal reasons can’t/won’t get vax’d



Okay, how do you feel public schools should provide for those who are not vaccinated?


----------



## skiur (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I am not arguing any of those points except public schools and if public schools want only vax’d kids they need to provide for those who for what ever personal reasons can’t/won’t get vax’d



I don't know where you went to public school, but I needed to be vaccinated to go to public school back in the 80's, why is that a problem now?


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay, how do you feel public schools should provide for those who are not vaccinated?


They should be taught by unvaccinated teachers!


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

Actually, I think our government is going about this "vaccination nudge" the wrong way. 

After all these months of "education" aka carrots, it's time for "sticks". By which I don't mean any sort of forced vaccination. I mean they should start raising the cost of vaccination for those who are still dilly-dally about getting vaccinated!

First, drugstores are allowed to charge to cover their cost of vaccination, say $5-10/shot, starting say Labor Day. 
Then, by October, vaccination will cost the recipient whatever the drug company want to charge. 

Combine the restriction of public access, I bet that would speed up those who're on the fence getting the vaccine!

The problem we have right now is people think it's free, therefore there must be something fishy about it. Well, made that the requirement to eat in restaurants, AND take away the "free" part of the vaccine! Turn vaccination into a desirable commodity instead of a public duty! 

Some people are stupid and selfish. Play to that and they will fall like dominos!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

i completely disagree that putting up cost barriers to getting vaccinated will help more people get vaccinated. that's a pretty nutty theory.

restricting the unvaccinated's access to the privileges of citizenship and the fun things in life is what will move the needle. france got 5 million people vaccinated the week after macron said you need vaccination to partake in cafe society


----------



## skiur (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Actually, I think our government is going about this "vaccination nudge" the wrong way.
> 
> After all these months of "education" aka carrots, it's time for "sticks". By which I don't mean any sort of forced vaccination. I mean they should start raising the cost of vaccination for those who are still dilly-dally about getting vaccinated!
> 
> ...



I would say the first step would be to get FDA approval.  Tough to charge for a drug that does not have FDA approval.


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i completely disagree that putting up cost barriers to getting vaccinated will help more people get vaccinated. that's a pretty nutty theory.


Nutty?

You call the "Vail success story" of announcing in advance of price increase "nutty"? There's typically an uptick of takers just prior to the deadline of each price increase!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

yes, charging people who dont want to take a vaccine for free isn't going to move the needle. its nonsense. the vail comparison isn't on point. those people want a season pass. a price increase nudges them to finalize a purchase they actually wanted to make. these people dont want a vaccine. a cost adds another hurdle to getting them to vaccinate.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

skiur said:


> I would say the first step would be to get FDA approval.


I would say this is “the “ biggest reason. People are skeptical about safety , throw in some unfamiliar technology Mrna .

Another factor is big tech is censoring discussion and removing posts for “ miss information “ which may or not be accurate. So the skeptics  are given more reasons to be suspicious.

I never buy a first model year vehicle….let someone else pay to work out the bugs.
I waited a while to get vaccinated and a week after my second shot was down for 3 days. 
Hopefully it’s over but I still have lingering pain where I was vaccinated.

All the other vaccinations that are required to have been tested for a long time . People need to chill out!


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yes, charging people who dont want to take a vaccine for free isn't going to move the needle. its nonsense. the vail comparison isn't on point. those people want a season pass. a price increase nudges them to finalize a purchase they actually wanted to make. these people dont want a vaccine. a cost adds another hurdle to getting them to vaccinate.



I agree with this. Making the vaccine no longer free will do absolutely nothing to encourage people that didn't want it in the first place to get it. That's a seriously bizarre idea. And you're also 100% right about why the Vail comparison is completely different.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Another factor is big tech is censoring discussion and removing posts for “ miss information “ which may or not be accurate. So the skeptics  are given more reasons to be suspicious.




They are doing so because you have a bunch of conspiracy believing morons with megaphones on social media that are getting people killed. 

Take this guy for instance.  He bought into the bullshit, continued to spread it himself and is now dead.  His now widow wife has the virus and his infant son will grow up without a father. 









						Texas GOP Official Mocked COVID Five Days Before He Died of Virus
					

H. Scott Apley’s Facebook page was filled with anti-mask, anti-vaccine content until he was suddenly hospitalized on Sunday.



					www.thedailybeast.com
				




It's the same basic principle as yelling fire in a crowded theater.  Society doesn't need that and it doesn't need the hoax crowd influencing people to make in some cases, deadly decisions. 

But yeah, Big Tech is the Boogeyman


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 5, 2021)

Someone gave the example of the polio vaccine. Not a good example as the first few months it was given out people got polio and died. Then they corrected the issue.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> They are doing so because you have a bunch of conspiracy believing morons with megaphones on social media that are getting people killed.
> 
> Take this guy for instance.  He bought into the bullshit, continued to spread it himself and is now dead.  His now widow wife has the virus and his infant son will grow up without a father.
> 
> ...


As the science evolves something that might have been miss information three months ago might actually be true now.

There’s fruit cakes all over the place I don’t think you can really worry about them.

All I can say is thank God we’re not Australia but I’m worried we’re headed in that direction.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> As the science evolves something that might have been miss information three months ago might actually be true now.
> 
> There’s fruit cakes all over the place I don’t think you can really worry about them.
> 
> All I can say is thank God we’re not Australia but I’m worried we’re headed in that direction.



Evolving messages from the medical community as the science is better understood is not the same as Hoax spreaders.  

What is Australia doing that you are so concerned about?


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that's an absurd position. public schools have required vaccinations for decades. these assholes shouldn't be accommodated, they should be exterminated.


They didn’t ask my opinion then 

lots of anger in this one


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

yea, i am angry that we could have been done with this already but half of this country more or less are completely worthless selfish pieces of shit. and I don't think I ever asked for your opinion.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

As a sidenote my friend Walt just lost his 24-year-old son to suicide. He was a little bit depressed during the shut downs but no one knew he was that bad. A month ago he received a job offer oh and was excited to be heading out west. Company did a medical background check and found out he had epilepsy and rescinded the offer. He committed suicide two weeks ago.

I think we also need to consider the mental health aspects as well.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Okay, how do you feel public schools should provide for those who are not vaccinated?


I don’t have the answer (I am far from an educator) but we make accommodations in our school system on a regular basis


----------



## skiur (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, i am angry that we could have been done with this already but half of this country more or less are completely worthless selfish pieces of shit. and I don't think I ever asked for your opinion.



That's a pretty messed up attitude to have against people that don't want to take a vaccine that doesn't even have full FDA approval.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

dont care. fuck these people. they are a cancer on the world with no sense of civic responsibility.

your weak ass full FDA approval argument will be moot in like 30 days time.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> yea, i am angry that we could have been done with this already but half of this country more or less are completely worthless selfish pieces of shit. and I don't think I ever asked for your opinion.


You do realize that this doesn’t go away until a certain percentage of the world (not just the USA) develops some immunity right? It’s a lot bigger than 50% of this country.

Good luck with that.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I don’t have the answer (I am far from an educator) but we make accommodations in our school system on a regular basis



Pretty hard to make an accommodation in the same physical space when we are talking about highly contagious  diseases.

As a parent, I don't want my kid in the same classroom as other kids without the MMR vaccine and I'll feel the same way about the Covid vaccine once it is cleared for use with kids. 

I also don't want me teacher friends to have to accommodate those who are not vaccinated.

If parents want to go that route, there's always homeschooling.


----------



## skiur (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> dont care. fuck these people. they are a cancer on the world with no sense of civic responsibility.
> 
> your weak ass full FDA approval argument will be moot in like 30 days time.



I hope so, maybe for Pfizer, but even for that I doubt it in 30 days.  Moderna and j&j are much further out.  While Im already fully vaccinated, how is that a weak argument when the administration that tests and approves the safety of the vaccine has not approved it yet?  I would have to say that it is a pretty damn strong argument.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> that's an absurd position. public schools have required vaccinations for decades. these assholes shouldn't be accommodated, they should be exterminated.


Exterminating people?????
And you have a symbol dear to the hearts of the peace and love generation as an avatar. That’s a mixed message right there.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Pretty hard to make an accommodation in the same physical space when we are talking about highly contagious  diseases.
> 
> As a parent, I don't want my kid in the same classroom as other kids without the MMR vaccine and I'll feel the same way about the Covid vaccine once it is cleared for use with kids.
> 
> ...


Equal access to all rights
Education is a right in this country, right?


----------



## skiur (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Equal access to all rights
> Education is a right in this country, right?



Vaccination has been a requirement of going to public school for decades.  I'm not sure what your argument is.  Once that vaccine has full FDA approval, it should most definitely be required to attend public school.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Equal access to all rights
> Education is a right in this country, right?



There are restrictions, one of them being vaccine requirements that have gone back decades.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> As a sidenote my friend Walt just lost his 24-year-old son to suicide. He was a little bit depressed during the shut downs but no one knew he was that bad. A month ago he received a job offer oh and was excited to be heading out west. Company did a medical background check and found out he had epilepsy and rescinded the offer. He committed suicide two weeks ago.
> 
> I think we also need to consider the mental health aspects as well.



I fully anticipate, (and so hope that I am 100% WRONG about this), that for far more people that had COVID related side effects and/or passed away from it, the lingering mental health issues will ultimately be the bigger story for so many people.

Just think about our young school aged kids, there certainly are many of them who don't remember what being is school mask free is like, and think that just breathing could lead to sickness and death. And that doesn't even get into the effects that virtual school had on the education process of so many kids (heck you can find countless number of stories about how while virtual that significant number of kids (in some inner city schools 20%+) NEVER logged into a single virtual class. How the heck does sociiety overcome that, and especially within a population that due to 101 other circumstances was already facing an uphill battle on the education front?

And that doesn't even get into the older age groups who have been isolated, and/or watched their jobs or businesses they built be taken from them by this. Or the seniors who haven't/weren't able to see their family for months on end. Or the family members who couldn't be there when one of their loved one's may have passed away from COVID or even have a memorial service for them soon thereafter.

The linger mental effects from this are going to be massive

The data has so often been twisted - and one can certainly find examples of the "anti vaxxers" as well as the "keep society closed since I'm going to die if I step out of my home" - all over the place on COVID, and that's just disgusting. 

There are some that just need to get over the vaccine fear, just like there are others who need to stop thinking that COVID is a certaon death sentence for anyone who contracts it.  BOTH sides are just wrong, and the most vocal from either side will likely never admit that they're wrong


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the vail isn't on point. those people want a season pass. a price increase nudges them to finalize a purchase they actually wanted to make.


But once schools and restaurants are requiring vaccination, it will become a "want" (out of "need"). 

The price increase will speed up the uptake. 

You guys are directing your anger at the wrong people! There're anti-vaxxers. But they're the minority. A large portion of the unvaccinated are the vaccine hesitants and indifferents. Those can be cohered into taking it, either by donuts or by the restriction to access donuts! 

The anti-vaxxers, they should be allowed to get sick and die. And all the lessor inconvenience such as no jobs and no restaurants.

Speaking of jobs. How about making pandemic related benefits tied to getting vaccinated? After all, you're getting help due to the pandemic, now there's no pandemic for the vaccinated. So get off your butt and get a job. Job #1 IS getting vaccinated! You don't take that "job offer"? You lose your benefit!


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

skiur said:


> I hope so, maybe for Pfizer, but even for that I doubt it in 30 days.  Moderna and j&j are much further out.  While Im already fully vaccinated, how is that a weak argument when the administration that tests and approves the safety of the vaccine has not approved it yet?  I would have to say that it is a pretty damn strong argument.



The argument is about as pointless as standing in the middle of train tracks with a train heading towards you and refusing to acknowledge that the train will hit you until it actually happens. There is no data out there that would indicate there's any reason the vaccines wouldn't get full approval. EUA isn't something the FDA just does for fun. A lot of the same data that was used to grant the EUA is what is normally used for a full FDA approval.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> But once schools and restaurants are requiring vaccination, it will become a "want" (out of "need").
> 
> The price increase will speed up the uptake.
> 
> ...


It's exactly statements like that that are the problem, since by the data out there, the simple reality is that even in our "most vulnerable" of demographics, the mortality rate for someone who contracts COVID is only around 5%, and for the younger and younger age groups, the data shows that the survivability rate is often has it's first non zero number multiple places to the right of the decimal point. The reality is that the risk of death is very low for anyone who contracts COVID. That risk also certainly gets lower if one is vaccinated, no doubt about that at all.

Now, I fully anticipate some of the participants in this thread to cherry pick a specific case where the person who passed away from COVID had multiple underlying conditions, conditions that already had them at an increased risk of mortality for likely a plethora of other diseases out there as well. 

At some point, the simple fact that life, no matter how much we wish it wasn't the case, will always have some degree of risk involved with it. I mean on the skiing/riding front, we all have seen people who CHOOSE to ski/ride a line or in a way that brings far greater risk upon themselves than we would be comfortable bringing upon ourselves. And in situations where it doesn't turn out well for them, how often does a line like "atleast they died doing what they love..." get thrown around. And I am sure that their actions do affect their loved ones and those who ended up being tasked with thrying to rescue or recover them


----------



## ThatGuy (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> dont care. fuck these people. they are a cancer on the world with no sense of civic responsibility.
> 
> your weak ass full FDA approval argument will be moot in like 30 days time.


In a thread of terrible takes yours are definitely the worst. Guess my grandmother is a “cancer who needs to be exterminated” because she is immunocompromised. I think getting vaccinated is the right and smart thing to do as well but that doesn’t instantly mean anyone who feels otherwise is anti-vax or a detriment to society. Getting 100% of this country vaccinated would be great, but that doesn’t mean the rest of the world will be and new variants can still spring up across the globe. At the end of the day this is an unprecedented situation and everyone has their own interpretation and reaction, ranging from crazy conspiracies of depopulation to people afraid of leaving their own house. Bad public education and mixed messages from all avenues of authority have led us here and sadly I don’t see Covid or the insane animosity between people going away soon. Get vaccinated if you want to live as close to normal as possible and not risk dying from Covid. Fact of the matter is no one knows the future and we can only make informed decisions on which path is most prudent.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

your grandma ruined america. good job.


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

drjeff said:


> *It's exactly statements like that that are the problem*, since by the data out there, the simple reality is that even in our "most vulnerable" of demographics, the mortality rate for someone who contracts COVID is only around 5%, and for the younger and younger age groups, the data shows that the survivability rate is often has it's first non zero number multiple places to the right of the decimal point. The reality is that the risk of death is very low for anyone who contracts COVID. That risk also certainly gets lower if one is vaccinated, no doubt about that at all.
> 
> Now, I fully anticipate some of the participants in this thread to cherry pick a specific case where the person who passed away from COVID had multiple underlying conditions, conditions that already had them at an increased risk of mortality for likely a plethora of other diseases out there as well.
> 
> At some point, the simple fact that life, no matter how much we wish it wasn't the case, will always have some degree of risk involved with it. I mean on the skiing/riding front, we all have seen people who CHOOSE to ski/ride a line or in a way that brings far greater risk upon themselves than we would be comfortable bringing upon ourselves. And in situations where it doesn't turn out well for them, how often does a line like "atleast they died doing what they love..." get thrown around. And I am sure that their actions do affect their loved ones and those who ended up being tasked with thrying to rescue or recover them


What "statement" exactly are you referring to?


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Evolving messages from the medical community as the science is better understood is not the same as Hoax spreaders.
> 
> What is Australia doing that you are so concerned about?



Someone giving medical advice without a license to practice medicine should be locked up.


abc said:


> But once schools and restaurants are requiring vaccination, it will become a "want" (out of "need").
> 
> The price increase will speed up the uptake.
> 
> ...


 I just left a A podiatrist friends Office, he currently has two offices but is closing one due to staff shortage. He said if he loses one more staff he’s out of business. The employees that he did hire for his second office would show up for 2 to 3 days and then disappear.

Someone  else I spoke to earlier today informed me my wives favorite restaurant that’s closing due to staff shortages and inconsistent food delivery , they’ve been in business for 80 years. This is nuts!!!


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

It's a tight labor market and the ones who pay up and create a good work culture are the ones who survive. The ones that close are the ones people dont want to work for and get no sympathy from me.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

snoseek said:


> It's a tight labor market and the ones who pay up and create a good work culture are the ones who survive. The ones that close are the ones people dont want to work for and get no sympathy from me.


my friends restaurant has the same staff from pre-Covid plus 2 new hires and he is KILLING it


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> my friends restaurant has the same staff from pre-Covid plus 2 new hires and he is KILLING it


Damn straight if you adjust your pricing, pay people competitively and dont suck to work for you can make a killing right now. Demand is all time.


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Someone giving medical advice without a license to practice medicine should be locked up.
> 
> Someone  else I spoke to earlier today informed me my wives favorite restaurant that’s closing due to staff shortages and inconsistent food delivery , they’ve been in business for 80 years. This is nuts!!!


Who's giving medical advice? (with or without license)

A lot of the "this is nuts" comments coming from people making "nutty" comments such as locking up anti-vaxxers). People need to look into the mirror before hitting the "submit" button!


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

certain takes are clearly facetious (anti-vax concentration camps and exterminations)

its still nuts to start charging people for something they don't want in the first place.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> Who's giving medical advice? (with or without license)
> 
> A lot of the "this is nuts" comments coming from people making "nutty" comments such as locking up anti-vaxxers). People need to look into the mirror before hitting the "submit" button!


Occasionally you’ll see “Home remedy “ video. 
if you go on YouTube right now you’ll find people claiming that some poisonous plants will actually help them , those are whom I was referring .

Nuts was referring to what our job market has devolved to.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> What "statement" exactly are you referring to?



The one in my quoted reply to you that I highlighted in red

"The anti-vaxxers, they should be allowed to get sick and die"

Might some get sick and die? Certainly is a possibility. However, the data is quite clear, that if one, across any age demographic, gets COVID, they aren't going to die from it.  

And the reality is that if someone who chose to get vaccinated is around someone who chose not to, and that person has COVID and passes it onto a vaccibated person and they test positive, that they are very, very, very, very, very likely to be fine. And if someone it at such high risk of sude effects from COVID, and has been vaccinated, chances are that they still are being very cautious and won't put themselves in such close quarters to others indoors for an extended period of time.

If you want to knit pick the say 0.0001%, then feel free to ket yourself obsess about it to your hearts content. There are so many more folks who, regardless of their vaccination status, are frankly just tired about altering our lives out of the very, very, very, very likely overblown fear of a small number of others


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Occasionally you’ll see “Home remedy “ video.
> if you go on YouTube right now you’ll find people claiming that some poisonous plants will actually help them , those are whom I was referring .


You quoted 2 posts. Neither of them had anything to do with the youtube remedy you mentioned


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> You quoted 2 posts. Neither of them had anything to do with the youtube remedy you mentioned


Sorry my phone is glitching today


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> certain takes are clearly facetious (anti-vax concentration camps and exterminations)
> 
> its still nuts to start charging people for something they don't want in the first place.


If people truly don't want it, you can't do much about it. Donuts definitely aren't going to do it. 

Forget about those who truly does not want it. They're deadbeats we have to live with. But they're not as numerous as the media make it sound.

But plenty of people are still on the fence. Those are the people that can be persuaded. Taking away other things they want more (restaurants, theaters) is one way. Announcing doing away the "free" part of vaccine is just another way. You need to create a "want" out of those who are still undecided.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

When they were sending out all that money could they have rebrands it as a reward for getting the shot? Would that be out of the question?


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 5, 2021)

snoseek said:


> It's a tight labor market and the ones who pay up and create a good work culture are the ones who survive. The ones that close are the ones people dont want to work for and get no sympathy from me.



That is very black and white and not so simple.  I know some restaurants that have closed and it was mostly because they had tight margins and food prices have been going up in fact sometimes they were not been able to get food period.  Walk though a mall and see how many vacant suites there are.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That is very black and white and not so simple.  I know some restaurants that have closed and it was mostly because they had tight margins and food prices have been going up in fact sometimes they were not been able to get food period.  Walk though a mall and see how many vacant suites there are.



i'm back in office two days a week and we're near newport center mall in jersey city. i popped over for lunch the other day and i'd say 2/3 of the food court is currently vacant. shopping malls suck and I remembered why I never liked getting lunch there in the before times.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Someone giving medical advice without a license to practice medicine should be locked up.
> 
> I just left a A podiatrist friends Office, he currently has two offices but is closing one due to staff shortage. He said if he loses one more staff he’s out of business. The employees that he did hire for his second office would show up for 2 to 3 days and then disappear.
> 
> Someone  else I spoke to earlier today informed me my wives favorite restaurant that’s closing due to staff shortages and inconsistent food delivery , they’ve been in business for 80 years. This is nuts!!!


You have multiple wives?


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> You have multiple wives?


Yes but don’t tell the first one.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 5, 2021)

Health Ins companies are actively discussing a surcharge for Unvacinnated individuals.

Otherwise the cost of taking care of Covid Pts will be paid by all of us in our premiums...


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				








__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 5, 2021)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Scotty It’s a link


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> That is very black and white and not so simple.  I know some restaurants that have closed and it was mostly because they had tight margins and food prices have been going up in fact sometimes they were not been able to get food period.  Walk though a mall and see how many vacant suites there are.


If their product is good enough doesn't matter


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> If people truly don't want it, you can't do much about it. Donuts definitely aren't going to do it.
> 
> Forget about those who truly does not want it. They're deadbeats we have to live with. But they're not as numerous as the media make it sound.
> 
> But plenty of people are still on the fence. Those are the people that can be persuaded. Taking away other things they want more (restaurants, theaters) is one way. Announcing doing away the "free" part of vaccine is just another way. You need to create a "want" out of those who are still undecided.











						College students are buying fake vaccine cards to skirt admission requirements
					

The FBI is cracking down on similar schemes elsewhere




					www.nj.com
				




If people are willing to pay to AVOID getting it, there's no way making it cost money to get the vaccine would in any way, shape, or form incentivize those people to get the vaccine.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 5, 2021)

cdskier said:


> College students are buying fake vaccine cards to skirt admission requirements
> 
> 
> The FBI is cracking down on similar schemes elsewhere
> ...


kids will pay twenty 12 packs ($200) to avoid getting the vaccine????
that’s more conviction than I ever had at that age.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 5, 2021)

cdskier said:


> College students are buying fake vaccine cards to skirt admission requirements
> 
> 
> The FBI is cracking down on similar schemes elsewhere
> ...


I had a Pt very proudly show me his Fake CDC Vacc Card that he paid $29 for.
Looked OK, but not on card stock.  The Lot # did not match the normal 2 letter 4 number sequence for Pfizer

Wifey is college dean at a catholic school and it's an instant expulsion w/ no refund, OUCH


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I had a Pt very proudly show me his Fake CDC Vacc Card that he paid $29 for.
> Looked OK, but not on card stock.  The Lot # did not match the normal 2 letter 4 number sequence for Pfizer
> 
> Wifey is college dean at a catholic school and it's an instant expulsion w/ no refund, OUCH



That's one way to teach kids a lesson...that policy makes total sense to me and I'd have no problem with any college that did that.

It is one thing to not want the shot for whatever reason, but it is a completely different thing to lie about it. If you don't want the shot, then you need to be willing to accept the consequences of that. If that means you can't attend a certain school because they require it, then too bad.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2021)

This is likely to be an unpopular perspective here about the college aged and younger crowd and their hesitancy to get vaccinated.

First off, since the majority of our "most vulnerable" for whom the risk of getting serious complications from COVID if they get it, have been vaccinated and as such have protection from the disease or serious side effects if they should get it the overwhelming majority of the time. That IS what the OBJEVTIVE data currently shows.

For the age demographic of *most* "normal" college aged students and younger, the data shows OBJECTIVELY, that should they get COVID that it won't be much different than getting a cold/the flu for the overwhelming percentage of them. That is what the data shows.

I believe that the vaccines are safe, and time will show that there will be no side effects, hence why my wife and I had our 2 high-school aged kids vaccinated in the Spring. 

Now if you have a younger person who may not be so sure about potential long term side effects from the vaccines, and they look at the potential side effects from them getting COVID, they may feel more comfortable with the COVID and recovering than getting vaccinated. 

Again remember the vast majority of our most vulnerable are vaccinated, and hence their risk of significant complications if they get COVID are much lower than early on in this Pandemic. 

Sometimes the emotions around this topic take over our brains and prevent the logical side from either looking at a different perspective or being able to objectively look at the full picture.

I hope as many people as possible get vaccinated


----------



## abc (Aug 5, 2021)

drjeff said:


> I hope as many people as possible get vaccinated


I hope so too. But... 

When the pandemic first started, the stated objective of the lockdown was to "protect the vulnerable". Well, heck, they're mostly vaccinated, aka "protected" now. 

So, why the big deal about vaccinating the college kids? One might ask. I for one don't quite see the point of that big push. Frankly, as soon as the vulnerable got vaccinated, and all those who want to get it got their chance to get it, the lockdown is lifted. And the pandemic "over". 

As far as I can tell, the pandemic IS OVER!

(I know, I know, there're breakthrough infection. But those people aren't clogging the hospital. They're recovering at home)

Sure, those who are vulnerable yet refused to vaccinate are getting sick and dying. But why should we give a rat's ass about them? They made their choice, they should live with the consequence! 

They aren't clogging the hospitals either. There're just not enough of them! Thank god. And with each wave of the unvaccinated getting sick and landing in hospital, there're also wave of vaccine uptakes too! 

So yea, I hope as many people vaccinate as possible. But I just don't think it's such a big deal. I also don't buy the notion they're wasting health care resources. We tolerate smokers and other unhealthy lifestyle getting sick and "wasting" health care resources all along. We can live with the Covid vaccine deniers hogging ventilator and ICU beds too. 

I really do think too many people over react when it comes to vaccine mandate! Just like many under react at the beginning of the pandemic & lockdown.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 5, 2021)

I'm really amazed people are even asking this question and still continue to think there's minimal risk for younger adults.









						Young People Are Biggest Group of Newly Hospitalized COVID-19 Patients
					

The most recent CDC data shows COVID-19-related hospitalizations are again increasing, with the age group most affected being ages 18 to 49.




					www.healthline.com
				












						Covid: Younger adults still at risk of serious organ damage - study
					

Adults below the age of 50 are almost as likely to suffer from medical complications as the over-50s.



					www.bbc.com
				








__





						Coronavirus and COVID-19: Younger Adults Are at Risk, Too
					

Early reports indicated that young people were more likely to have milder cases of the disease. But that view may be changing.




					www.hopkinsmedicine.org
				












						COVID 'Doesn't Discriminate By Age': Serious Cases On The Rise In Younger Adults
					

With older adults vaccinated, doctors say a growing share of their COVID-19 patients are in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s, as more contagious variants circulate among people who are still unvaccinated.




					www.npr.org


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2021)

abc said:


> I hope so too. But...
> 
> When the pandemic first started, the stated objective of the lockdown was to "protect the vulnerable". Well, heck, they're mostly vaccinated, aka "protected" now.
> 
> ...



LOTS to unpack here 

The big deal about getting less vulnerable people (younger) vaccinated is all about reducing the possibility of mutations.  It's about trying to stop this thing in it's tracks before the next version isn't worse than the Delta that's going ham right now.  Who is to say the next mutation doesn't start killing kids at the rate that older people have been killed at.  Let's try and avoid that. 

As far as the pandemic being over? Do you not read the news?  There are health systems in Florida and elsewhere that are getting crushed right now.  Hospitals are having to put beds in cafeterias, auditoriums etc. because their standard care wards are maxed.  That's a fact. 

Yes, other unhealthy lifestyle choices consume hospital resources too, but never ever have smokers, Big Mac addicts etc , flooded hospitals to the point that they've had to shutdown elective surgeries and procedures because those hospitals having to divert their entire staff towards their care like has gone on with Covid.   I won't even get into the money damage difference, but trust me when I say it's MASSIVE. 

Incredibly naive post abc.  

About the only part of your post I agree with is not giving a rats ass about the unvaccinated getting really sick and sometimes dying.  I do have some empathy for those though as all early deaths are still tragic. Often the result of believing bad information, which YOU are now guilty of spreading.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2021)

Just a bit of objective perspective data that I just read about breakthrough infections amongst the fully vaccinated. And this was from an ABC news report from about 10 days ago numbers wise.

There are about 156 MILLION fully vaccinated Americans. There have been (at the time of reporting) about 153 THOUSAND breakthrough cases. That amounts to 0.098% of those who have been vaccinated having breakthrough cases (no demographic info about which age groups these cases happened in)

I know that based on the reporting of some media outlets it can be easy to think that the breakthrough rate amongst the vaccinated is 5%, 10%, 25%, etc. The objective data just doesn't show that.

Frankly as a whole, our society should, no actually almost HAS to learn to look beyond the headline and at the actual data, because those 2 things are often quite different.

For example, take the latest "County Transmission Risk" designation the CDC is using now. Since I haven't heard or read any clear explanation about what the exact metrics the CDC is using to asign these Transmission Risk designation levels, I went looking on the CDC's website for a few minutes today and couldn't find it.

Basically, I am not sure after trying to find it, and hearing Transmission Risk designation statuses changing all over the news right now, what the metrics the CDC is using. Is it based on an average number of new cases on a per 100000 basis for an entire County reaching some threshold level? Is it based on an individual city/town within the County reaching some threshold level? Is it based on an objective number of new cases over a certain period of time in a County? I honestly don't know after looking for that information. 

Given that these Transmission Risk designation are now being used to affect how some areas go about their daily lives right now, shouldn't the metrics the CDC is using be readily available and clearly explained to the public? 

We should/have to learn to demand to see the data behind the statements our elected officials and appointed public health leaders are using in determing if and what restrictions on our lives, are based on


----------



## drjeff (Aug 5, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> LOTS to unpack here
> 
> The big deal about getting less vulnerable people (younger) vaccinated is all about reducing the possibility of mutations.  It's about trying to stop this thing in it's tracks before the next version isn't worse than the Delta that's going ham right now.  Who is to say the next mutation doesn't start killing kids at the rate that older people have been killed at.  Let's try and avoid that.
> 
> ...



DHS, just curious if you have any idea about how many hospitals actually reached maximum capacity to care for COVID patients and had to turn patients away?

I know I certainly have seen some news reports of this happening to some hospitals, no question about that. However after just looking it up, there are currently just under 6100 hospitals operating in the US. Only a very small percentage actually reached capacity, and even in super hard hit areas like NYC early on, the majority of hospitals never reached capacity and the NAVY hospital ship that was brought in with something like 1000 beds aboard, had maybe 20 patients on it maximum. And how many hospitals and/or local municipalities set up temporary hospital tents that never saw a single patient?

Again, that is just objective data, and fortunately our Healthcare system as a whole never reached its breaking point.

I agree that postponement of elective procedures was a problematic thing, but not all of those postponements was from COVID patient care taking up staff and beds, much of it was based on state mandates suspending elective procedures/treatment. That IS a distinct difference. Heck, that is something that my dental profession spent multiple months trying to get clarification from my home state as to what exactly an emergency procedure vs what an elective procedure is... and we basically never got a straight answer until one random Friday afternoon in May of 2020 when my Governor in CT said that he actually never shut down dental offices, and most medical offices, which sure came as a surprise to so many of us


----------



## cdskier (Aug 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Frankly as a whole, our society should, no actually almost HAS to learn to look beyond the headline and at the actual data, because those 2 things are often quite different.
> 
> For example, take the latest "County Transmission Risk" designation the CDC is using now. Since I haven't heard or read any clear explanation about what the exact metrics the CDC is using to asign these Transmission Risk designation levels, I went looking on the CDC's website for a few minutes today and couldn't find it.
> 
> ...



Are you talking about the data shown here? https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view

If so, an explanation of the metrics are all right on that page in the Footnotes...


----------



## abc (Aug 6, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> The big deal about getting less vulnerable people (younger) vaccinated is all about reducing the possibility of mutations. It's about trying to stop this thing in it's tracks before the next version isn't worse than the Delta that's going ham right now. Who is to say the next mutation doesn't start killing kids at the rate that older people have been killed at. Let's try and avoid that.


That's a false economy!

There're many billions of people in other countries that aren't getting vaccinated. They're getting infected left and right. The virus will mutate THERE! Heck, the Delta variant came from India!!!

In fact, we're probably better off by shipping all the vaccines to India instead of having them sitting here in this country not being taken up by the school kids!



> As far as the pandemic being over? Do you not read the news? There are health systems in Florida and elsewhere that are getting crushed right now. Hospitals are having to put beds in cafeterias, auditoriums etc. because their standard care wards are maxed. That's a fact.


Your "fact" are just cherry-picked. Besides, it still boils down to majority of those are people choosing NOT to get vaccinated. Maybe hospital should start to deprioritize ICU for Covid patients!

Nothing motivates people to get vaccinated than to see people they know getting infected and getting seriously sick. No amount of donuts will be as "motivating"!


----------



## abc (Aug 6, 2021)

At the beginning of the pandemic, the anti-lockdown conspiracy theorists insist it's the government's excuse to "control the population". I thought that's ludicrous. The government had a whole lot of other things to do than that. 

Now, seeing how many people are insisting the government should mandate this and require that. I'm starting to feel the early anti-lockdown warning wasn't entirely without base. 

Our "government" is made up of competing interest of the various groups. How quick and ready some people are to restrict other people's freedom is indicative of that danger being much more real than I realized. 

Although I share your view regarding the benefit of vaccination, I don't support your position to mandate it to everyone. Not now. Not yet anyway.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2021)

drjeff said:


> DHS, just curious if you have any idea about how many hospitals actually reached maximum capacity to care for COVID patients and had to turn patients away?
> 
> I know I certainly have seen some news reports of this happening to some hospitals, no question about that. However after just looking it up, there are currently just under 6100 hospitals operating in the US. Only a very small percentage actually reached capacity, and even in super hard hit areas like NYC early on, the majority of hospitals never reached capacity and the NAVY hospital ship that was brought in with something like 1000 beds aboard, had maybe 20 patients on it maximum. And how many hospitals and/or local municipalities set up temporary hospital tents that never saw a single patient?
> 
> ...



You are right Jeff.  The health system didn't break at the height of the pandemic, but there certainly were pockets and individual institutions that did. I do know of at least three prominent metro NYC hospitals where my company added 75+ ICU beds a piece that did have to turn away patients.  I'm certain other vendors experienced the same.

I can tell you that the third largest hospital in Boston ran out of vents and ended up having to use Anesthesia machines under EUA for patients and 80% of the Anesthesiologists in that hospital were playing Respiratory therapist for months. They were losing $300M a month at the height of things.  I know that Mass General bought 90 vents from a company that never sold vents in this country before and ended up using almost all of them. 

So, while yes you are correct, the health system held up, the impact of Covid was unprecedented in many areas and should not have been compared to smokers etc tying up resources like abc did.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 6, 2021)

Well I've said it before, the "buy it asshole" method of marketing the vaccine will never work. People do not react positively to that approach and it is the main reason for the vaccine hesitancy we see. Our "leaders" are utterly flaccid! No idea how to market this to the general public.

Frankly it is disturbing to read some of the posts here and I've lost a lot of respect for some folks. I don't have time for selfishness and anger.

And the 15 minutes I've spent reading this nonsense makes me realize I was right about "normal" never coming back.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 6, 2021)

Anyone else getting a pass to ski in VT this coming season?


----------



## Edd (Aug 6, 2021)

I’m a pro-vaxxer, and what I think bothers people that think like I do, is that this was a crisis in which everyone was asked to help. Help themselves, pitch in for the common good, get as close to normal ASAP. It’s not risk free but it’s by far the best card to play. 

Will you help?

Anti-vaxxers: No. I don’t care about others. Me, me, me.

FDA approval won’t move these ding-dongs an inch.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 6, 2021)

they also have quite the venn diagram overlap with traitorous insurrectionists.


----------



## Edd (Aug 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> they also have quite the venn diagram overlap with traitorous insurrectionists.


Indeed, I wonder if they have similar news sources?


----------



## skiur (Aug 6, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Anyone else getting a pass to ski in VT this coming season?



Just like I did last year.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 6, 2021)

I do not want to get too into specifics in a public forum but the anecdote is apropos. Life long friend went out to the bar last week with a bunch of friends. All tested positive earlier this week. My friend is vaccinated but not in the best physical shape. He is at home and feels like hell but he is at home. Two fitness freaks in the group, not vaccinated, have both been hospitalized as of today. All same low risk age range, no preexisting conditions.


----------



## Edd (Aug 6, 2021)




----------



## fbrissette (Aug 6, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Anyone else getting a pass to ski in VT this coming season?


Got my Jay Peak pass, hoping that Science will finally win and that the US land border will open to the fully vaccinated, without the need for a COVID test prior to entering (US and Canada side).


----------



## Dickc (Aug 6, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Anyone else getting a pass to ski in VT this coming season?


I have an Epic Northeast Senior pass.  Will hit Okemo, Snow, and Stowe at least once each, maybe more.  Have not been to Stowe for 45 years........


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i completely disagree that putting up cost barriers to getting vaccinated will help more people get vaccinated. that's a pretty nutty theory.



Yes, truly one of the dumber things I've read on this website in a decade of reading dumb things on this website.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2021)

snoseek said:


> *It's a tight labor market and the ones who pay up and create a good work culture are the ones who survive.* The ones that close are the ones people dont want to work for and get no sympathy from me.



It's not that simple, especially for those competing against, "here's your free money", if that's the work sector your pulling from.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 6, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Got my Jay Peak pass, *hoping that Science will finally win* and that the US land border will open to the fully vaccinated, without the need for a COVID test prior to entering (US and Canada side).



Sorry, in America politics is in control, not science.  I had my hopes previously, but I've given up on that ever changing.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 6, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> It's not that simple, especially for those competing against, "here's your free money", if that's the work sector your pulling from.



Are there people who normally worked restaurant and retail gigs who are taking advantage of the free money and will go back when the well dries?

Most certainly

But having worked in the business for close to 20 years throughout my adult life, (and I'm sure retail is similar) many who took pride in busting ass and not ever wanting a handout simply realized through the shutdowns that the work / life balance in that business sucks.  They got sucked in when they were young and didn't care so much about that stuff and never got out.

Something like 15 years of my life, I didn't know what day or hopefully two days off the next week Id have until 5PM on Friday.  Mandatory holiday shifts.  No PTO or sick time unless you were a manager.

  I've got a lot of old friends who used to make $60-75k a year either serving, bartending or managing kitchens who have settled into other jobs that maybe pay a little less, but they get 52 weekends off a year and better benefits. 

So, what snoseek is really saying is this whole Covid thing has really shined a light on businesses that treated their employees like dog shit.  It's the ones that have always and continue to value their workers who are shining right now.  The ones who ran like a sweat shop got killed off.

We will see how long it lasts, but hopefully it does because the workers deserve better.   Likely how is if restaurants charge a whole lot more money for their services.  Americans need to appreciate and pay a helluva a lot more for prepared food, so the employers can better compensate their workers.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 7, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’m a pro-vaxxer, and what I think bothers people that think like I do, is that this was a crisis in which everyone was asked to help. Help themselves, pitch in for the common good, get as close to normal ASAP. It’s not risk free but it’s by far the best card to play.
> 
> Will you help?
> 
> ...


Anti-vaxxers are but a small subset of the vaccine hesitant. Please stop treating those who don't want to be vaccinated as a monolith of anti-vax forever Trumpers. That just isn't the case. Remember there is a large subset of unvaccinated folks who can't be vaccinated whether due to pre-existing conditions or age (under 12).

Vilifying those who are not vaccinated will not do anything to convince them to get vaccinated and in fact further hardens their resolve. Just because you have no fear of the vaccines because you want to get back to your "normal" life does nothing to allay the fears of someone who is genuinely afraid. Calling them uncooperative and selfish Trump lovers does nothing to resolve our current situation and in fact will just prolong the crisis.

Instead of talking *down* to the vaccine hesitant and ragging on them as a group maybe try talking *to* such a person and understanding their position. That's how you show genuine concern and promote the fact that opinions can be changed. We used to do that in this country.

EDIT: I'm fully vaccinated. I am neither pro nor anti vax. I got the shots to:

1) shut people up about whether or not I am vaccinated and why.
2) because my youngest son has to be vaccinated to return to college. Since he really has no choice (please don't say he does because he could go to another school, that's stupid) I felt it was important for me to also go through that process with him.


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 7, 2021)

JimG. said:


> Anti-vaxxers are but a small subset of the vaccine hesitant. Please stop treating those who don't want to be vaccinated as a monolith of anti-vax forever Trumpers. That just isn't the case. Remember there is a large subset of unvaccinated folks who can't be vaccinated whether due to pre-existing conditions or age (under 12).
> 
> Vilifying those who are not vaccinated will not do anything to convince them to get vaccinated and in fact further hardens their resolve. Just because you have no fear of the vaccines because you want to get back to your "normal" life does nothing to allay the fears of someone who is genuinely afraid. Calling them uncooperative and selfish Trump lovers does nothing to resolve our current situation and in fact will just prolong the crisis.
> 
> Instead of talking *down* to the vaccine hesitant and ragging on them as a group maybe try talking *to* such a person and understanding their position. That's how you show genuine concern and promote the fact that opinions can be changed. We used to do that in this country.


2 thumbs up for reason and understanding


----------



## JimG. (Aug 7, 2021)

fbrissette said:


> Got my Jay Peak pass, hoping that Science will finally win and that the US land border will open to the fully vaccinated, without the need for a COVID test prior to entering (US and Canada side).


I read that the dispute with border guards has been resolved and that it will open this month.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 7, 2021)

skiur said:


> Just like I did last year.


Pretty stoked I'll be skiing at K again this coming season.


----------



## 2Planker (Aug 7, 2021)

abc said:


> I hope so too. But...
> 
> When the pandemic first started, the stated objective of the lockdown was to "protect the vulnerable". Well, heck, they're mostly vaccinated, aka "protected" now.
> 
> ...




  College kids live in communal housing.  In Providence last year it was the PC kids that kept testing positive.  Thhe faculty & staff aren't coming bacg


JimG. said:


> Anti-vaxxers are but a small subset of the vaccine hesitant. Please stop treating those who don't want to be vaccinated as a monolith of anti-vax forever Trumpers. That just isn't the case. Remember there is a large subset of unvaccinated folks who can't be vaccinated whether due to pre-existing conditions or age (under 12).
> 
> Vilifying those who are not vaccinated will not do anything to convince them to get vaccinated and in fact further hardens their resolve. Just because you have no fear of the vaccines because you want to get back to your "normal" life does nothing to allay the fears of someone who is genuinely afraid. Calling them uncooperative and selfish Trump lovers does nothing to resolve our current situation and in fact will just prolong the crisis.
> 
> ...


I have to talk to 30-40 patients every week, about why they're not vaccinated.
The reasons are nothing short of crazy, but we're used to it by now. Sad to say, I know
 They just know better than  clinicians w/ top notch medical degrees and 30+ years of experience.


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## JimG. (Aug 7, 2021)

2Planker said:


> College kids live in communal housing.  In Providence last year it was the PC kids that kept testing positive.  Thhe faculty & staff aren't coming bacg
> 
> I have to talk to 30-40 patients every week, about why they're not vaccinated.
> The reasons are nothing short of crazy, but we're used to it by now. Sad to say, I know
> They just know better than  clinicians w/ top notch medical degrees and 30+ years of experience.


I'm sure that's frustrating because you are certainly trying your best to help them.

I'll be attacked for saying so but sometimes the ultimate disaster (death) is not enough to convince people to take the vaccine. That's when we all have to say "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".  

Returning to restrictions will not promote increased vaccinations and in fact people are already using them to say that there is no reason to get vaxxed if we still have restrictions for vaccinated people. Time to open up society and come what may. If people die because they won't vaccinate, so be it.


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## 2Planker (Aug 7, 2021)

They beg for the Vacc, when you say they have to be admitted, and won't be allowed any visitors


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## 2Planker (Aug 7, 2021)

2Planker said:


> They beg for the Vacc, when you say they have to be admitted, and won't be allowed any visitors



 We all will pay for Covid costs.  HealthCare is loosing huge $$$ treating something that could be prevented. It will only raise all costs, including your Med Ins Premiums


----------



## Harvey (Aug 7, 2021)

2Planker said:


> We all will pay for Covid costs.


We already are paying. And you're right, will pay in the future.


----------



## kbroderick (Aug 7, 2021)

Re hospital capacity, my dad had appendicitis a couple of months ago. The surgeon ended up coming to the hospital he was at, which normally wouldn't have hosted that surgery, because the bigger ones (including CMMC) that normally would've didn't have beds available. Anecdotal, but I suspect it's far from the only case where capacity affected care plans, even if the hospitals never officially got overwhelmed.

I also suspect the breakthrough rate is getting undercounted, as most breakthrough infections don't result in hospitalization. I still strongly believe that getting vaccinated is by far the best way to reduce the risk of both significant illness and the (relatively low for most) risk of death, plus reducing infections does reduce spread (breakthrough infections are clearly plus likely than infections in the unvaccinated).

Finally, having a very pregnant wife has driven home the effects that even an asymptomatic infection can have on your life--if she tests positive when we go into the hospital, she doesn't get to hold the baby. We're being especially careful as a result, between that and having a one year old at home (because while serious cases in the young are rare, that's not much comfort if your child happens to be an outlier).


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2021)

Congrats kbrod on the soon new baby.  Best wishes that all goes well, mom and baby are healthy and you don't have to deal with any of those separations


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> *Americans need to* appreciate and* pay a helluva a lot more for prepared food*, so the employers can better compensate their workers.



Already happening.   To the point I wonder if it's going to be destructive to the industry writ large.  That said, I'm not one who believes the Fed mantra that inflation is "transitory", so there's that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2021)

2Planker said:


> I have to talk to 30-40 patients every week, about *why they're not vaccinated.
> The reasons are nothing short of crazy,* but we're used to it by now.



They tend to fall into these five baskets:

1) This DNA vaccine will alter my DNA =  No it wont, it's an mRNA vaccine.
2) This mRNA vaccine will alter my DNA = No it wont, mRNA relates to protein synthesis & doesn't affect DNA directly.
3) This is an experimental vaccine! = Every flipping novel drug or vaccine known to man was or is "experimental", that's how it works.
4) The vaccine is not FDA approved it's emergency authorized! = A dumb argument, given the same people who will grant FDA approval are of precisely the same expert cohort group who granted emergency authorization in the first place.
5) I'm worried about side effects = Hundreds of millions of humans have now had this vaccine, side effects are minimal, and none are worse than "death".


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I also suspect the breakthrough rate is getting undercounted, as most breakthrough infections don't result in hospitalization.



Breakthrough cases are being undercounted, because the Biden Administration doesnt want you to know about them.  This is frustrating medical professionals.

UNPOPULAR OPINION:  We are all (eventually) going to get COVID19, so make sure you get vaccinated, and IMO, get a booster roughly 6 months afterwards (or whatever timeframe experts decide will yield the largest statistical benefit).


----------



## Andrew B. (Aug 8, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> Re hospital capacity, my dad had appendicitis a couple of months ago. The surgeon ended up coming to the hospital he was at, which normally wouldn't have hosted that surgery, because the bigger ones (including CMMC) that normally would've didn't have beds available. Anecdotal, but I suspect it's far from the only case where capacity affected care plans, even if the hospitals never officially got overwhelmed.
> 
> I also suspect the breakthrough rate is getting undercounted, as most breakthrough infections don't result in hospitalization. I still strongly believe that getting vaccinated is by far the best way to reduce the risk of both significant illness and the (relatively low for most) risk of death, plus reducing infections does reduce spread (breakthrough infections are clearly plus likely than infections in the unvaccinated).
> 
> Finally, having a very pregnant wife has driven home the effects that even an asymptomatic infection can have on your life--if she tests positive when we go into the hospital, she doesn't get to hold the baby. We're being especially careful as a result, between that and having a one year old at home (because while serious cases in the young are rare, that's not much comfort if your child happens to be an outlier).


Congrats and be safe

Not sure it matters but I will say having spent some time with family at SMMC this past week. The states bed shortage is not only due to C-19. A relative who is an administrator there said it’s more about staffing shortages than Covid overload.


----------



## Harvey (Aug 8, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> 4) The vaccine is not FDA approved it's emergency authorized!


Be interesting to see if this changes when it is approved.


----------



## Harvey (Aug 8, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Already happening.


I'm seeing it. A few times I did't bring a lunch and ordered out from work, it's $20 for a sandwich, and when you order it they push pretty hard for a tip.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Be interesting to see if this changes when it is approved.



For some it will, but my WAG (wild ass guess) is that for the bulk of them this is just an anti-vaxxer excuse & once it's FDA approved they'll latch onto some other excuse or reason to not get vaccinated.  I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 8, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Breakthrough cases are being undercounted, because the Biden Administration doesnt want you to know about them.  This is frustrating medical professionals.
> 
> UNPOPULAR OPINION:  We are all (eventually) going to get COVID19, so make sure you get vaccinated, and IMO, get a booster roughly 6 months afterwards (or whatever timeframe experts decide will yield the largest statistical benefit).



Be curious when boosters become available and how they are approached.  I got my second Moderna on March 4th.  I'd be fine with getting a third jab today if there was benefit.   Wonder if I would end up with a third Moderna or one of the others.


----------



## Harvey (Aug 8, 2021)

Edd said:


> I’m a pro-vaxxer


Never heard this before. Does anyone really WANT to take a vaccine?  I never got a flu shot until this year.

I'm a lesser of two evils vaxxer.


----------



## ThatGuy (Aug 8, 2021)

San Francisco clarifies J&J booster shot stance
					

San Francisco Department of Public Health Director Dr. Grant Colfax on Thursday clarified the department’s stance on COVID-19 vaccine booster shots for people who previously received the sing…




					www.google.com
				




Appears they are offering people in San Francisco a booster shot if they received the JnJ vax. Not recommend by the CDC yet but that will probably change.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 8, 2021)

In my opinion covid has essentially become just another flu-like disease by this point, with a vax readily available to whoever wants it, and we are just going to have to deal with it like we have dealt with the flu the past 100 years.  We get new flu strains every year, I dont see why we should expect the Rona will be any different.

Get a shot annually if you want to reduce the severity of covid when (not if) you get it.

Otherwise, let's get on with it or else the impending inflation/economic/mental/health/education/political/ issues are going to be that much worse.  Not to mention we're not getting any younger now, going on 2 years of our lives invested in this deal. sunken cost fallacy/2 more weeks or something.  That being said, I believe we accomplished what the goal was to achieve - the curve was flattened, hospitals are doing fine, vax is freely available to whoever wants it and 70% of people have it in them and a significant additional number of people have been inoculated the natural way, so to speak - so good job, let's get on with it!

And by all means if no more people here want to be inoculated, sell the vax to people overseas that do!


----------



## Tonyr (Aug 8, 2021)

Can we finally lock this thread once and for all mods? The majority of us come here to read about skiing for heavens sake!!!!


----------



## skiur (Aug 8, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> Can we finally lock this thread once and for all mods? The majority of us come here to read about skiing for heavens sake!!!!



It's august dude, deal with it.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 8, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Be curious when boosters become available and how they are approached.  I got my second Moderna on March 4th.  I'd be fine with getting a third jab today if there was benefit.   Wonder if I would end up with a third Moderna or one of the others.



I was only able to get vaccinated in May because Jersey was a slow motion trainwreck with the vaccine, so I've got time, but I plan on getting the JNJ around November to add an adenovirus vaccine to the mRNA vaccine I have (PFE).  That should, theoretically, provide a more diverse antibody estate, but obviously that's not approved or known to be true yet, and probably wont be for quite a while.


----------



## raisingarizona (Aug 8, 2021)

Tonyr said:


> Can we finally lock this thread once and for all mods? The majority of us come here to read about skiing for heavens sake!!!!


Don’t click on it. What’s the problem?


----------



## Harvey (Aug 8, 2021)

PAabe said:


> sell the vax to people overseas that do!


I agree with this for first world countries, and China.

I also didn't get vaxed until May. I know people who were rushing, and working it, on multiple lists I just figured I'd wait my turn. Never really thought of it but maybe it is a slight advantage.

Also don't understand the request to lock the thread.  I haven't read it all (not even close) but it seems pretty civilized.  Reality is that any forum discussion of covid is going to have a political undertone. In our forum, as long as it stays beneath the surface, it's fine.


----------



## PAabe (Aug 8, 2021)

And I mean donating it to developing countries would be pretty rad too. that can also be challenging logistically but we could certainly use the streed cred from doing so in the international scene


----------



## zyk (Aug 9, 2021)

So to stir the pot a bit because I respect the thoughtful and reasonable nature of this thread.  Just worked my first event in 2 years.  6000+ people.  Who knows who was vaxxed or not.  Some masked, most not.  Hopefully I don't get covid.

Sorry I know its off topic but this has been a great thread for covid updates.

And hopefully we get 490 inches of snow next season.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 9, 2021)

zyk said:


> So to stir the pot a bit because I respect the thoughtful and reasonable nature of this thread.  Just worked my first event in 2 years.  6000+ people.  Who knows who was vaxxed or not.  Some masked, most not.  Hopefully I don't get covid.
> 
> Sorry I know its off topic but this has been a great thread for covid updates.
> 
> And hopefully we get 490 inches of snow next season.



are you a security guard at the Westville Music Bowl in New Haven, CT? Because I saw one wearing a Magic Mountain hat last weekend and gave him a big high five


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 9, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> 2 thumbs up for reason and understanding



Ditto!  There is also the underserved communities where vaccination rates are relatively low because many are afraid, do not have a means to get to a location, or are misinformed because they do not pay much attention to what is going on in the world or country.  I live in and near near these types of communities and many live in a small circle.


----------



## abc (Aug 9, 2021)

PAabe said:


> 70% of people have it in them and a *significant additional number of people have been inoculated the natural way, so to speak*


That number is growing faster thanks to the new more transmissible variant.


----------



## flakeydog (Aug 9, 2021)

JimG. said:


> I'll be attacked for saying so but sometimes the ultimate disaster (death) is not enough to convince people to take the vaccine. That's when we all have to say "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".


Perhaps a better analogy is when the horse gets to the water source he just pisses in it.  Wondering why all the other horses are mad, he shrugs and says "it's ok, I wasn't thirsty.  This is America, and freedom.  I can piss where ever i want.  Now leave me alone while I go take a dump in the grain bin"

Edit: come to think of it, in my story it was not a horse, it was a jackass...


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## Andrew B. (Aug 9, 2021)

Someone pissed in vaccines?
Sources please.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 9, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> Someone pissed in vaccines?
> Sources please.


Well, JNJ was having a problem with doses getting contaminated, werent they?


----------



## zyk (Aug 10, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> are you a security guard at the Westville Music Bowl in New Haven, CT? Because I saw one wearing a Magic Mountain hat last weekend and gave him a big high five


Awesome but not me.  Brewery Ommegang near Cooperstown NY.  Bar design, setup, and management.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 10, 2021)

abc said:


> That number is growing faster thanks to the new more transmissible variant.



Yup.

Look at India, where the Delta Variant originated (officially first noted in December of 2020). A country of 1.2 or so BILLION people where it's current fully vaccinated rate is just over 8%.  

The Delta caused spike there started on Roughly March 10 of this year with a 7 day new daily case average of about 10k. It peak about 2 months later in Mid May with a 7 day new case average of just over 400k per day   About 2 months later (just about a month ago in Mid July) their curve flattend back out and has been in the roughly 40k new per day ever since.  With less than half their population having received one dose, and less than 10% being fully vaccinated, the natural immunity route is certainly playing a roll for them.

And we can learn something from the Delta data out of India, it's that the current spike we are seeing from Delta will likely be similarly short lived as it was in India, and may even be shorter in the US given the vastly greater percentage of the population that was either fully vaccinated or partially vaccinated when the Delta spike began. 

The data is frankly showing that if one either isn't vaccinated or hasn't had COVID and recovered that this Delta spike, is notable, should present some concern to those in that group who are older and/or have underlying risk factors. however if one is vaccinated or has had COVID and recovered, most people in that group don't have to worry about Delta, even if they get a breakthrough case. That is just what the data shows. And it seems like the mantra that we heard so often earlier in COVID, "trust the science" now isn't uttered very often as the science is quite clear what the risk (or lack of risk) of contracting or having symptoms severe enough to require hospitalization if one has antibodies, is very, very, very low

Even the data reported out of Massachusetts last week, which cited around 100 deaths from breakthrough cases (about 0.002%) of all vaccinated people in Massachusetts, it was pointed out that the average age of those who pass away from breakthrough cases was 82.5 and that other underlying conditions were present.


----------



## kbroderick (Aug 10, 2021)

drjeff said:


> ...
> 
> The data is frankly showing that if one either isn't vaccinated or hasn't had COVID and recovered that this Delta spike, is notable, should present some concern to those in that group who are older and/or have underlying risk factors. however if one is vaccinated or has had COVID and recovered, most people in that group don't have to worry about Delta, even if they get a breakthrough case. That is just what the data shows. And it seems like the mantra that we heard so often earlier in COVID, "trust the science" now isn't uttered very often as the science is quite clear what the risk (or lack of risk) of contracting or having symptoms severe enough to require hospitalization if one has antibodies, is very, very, very low
> 
> Even the data reported out of Massachusetts last week, which cited around 100 deaths from breakthrough cases (about 0.002%) of all vaccinated people in Massachusetts, it was pointed out that the average age of those who pass away from breakthrough cases was 82.5 and that other underlying conditions were present.



I'd seen an article previously suggesting that natural immunity to Delta required a Delta infection, and that the natural immunity acquired from other variants (and, specifically, earlier ones) did not necessarily translate to natural immunity against Delta. Have you seen any further data on that? That, to me, was a scary suggestion from a "I'd like to get back to normal" standpoint, given that the (presumed) substantial overlap between prior infections and those who have no intention of getting vaccinated.


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## drjeff (Aug 10, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I'd seen an article previously suggesting that natural immunity to Delta required a Delta infection, and that the natural immunity acquired from other variants (and, specifically, earlier ones) did not necessarily translate to natural immunity against Delta. Have you seen any further data on that? That, to me, was a scary suggestion from a "I'd like to get back to normal" standpoint, given that the (presumed) substantial overlap between prior infections and those who have no intention of getting vaccinated.



I am not aware of any non delta antbodies vs delta infection studies (probably a few months away for the analysis to occur) and frankly in the US, it's tough to figure out the difference between vaccine induced antobodies and naturally induced antibodies and even the hybrid vaccine and naturally induced antibodies and what their rate of Delta infection and/or severity of infection is.

This is certainly a disease process that has far more variables than constants!


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## ScottySkis (Aug 11, 2021)

Fyi AZ









						US study: Moderna vaccine far better than Pfizer at preventing Delta infection
					

Mayo Clinic research finds both inoculations have dropped in efficacy, but Pfizer's decline has been much steeper; both remain highly effective against severe illness




					www.timesofisrael.com


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 11, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> I'd seen an article previously suggesting that natural immunity to Delta required a Delta infection, and that the natural immunity acquired from other variants (and, specifically, earlier ones) did not necessarily translate to natural immunity against Delta. Have you seen any further data on that? That, to me, was a scary suggestion from a "I'd like to get back to normal" standpoint, given that the (presumed) substantial overlap between prior infections and those who have no intention of getting vaccinated.



The variants are morphologically similar enough that there is almost surely some level of cross-immunogenicity, so while you might not be immune & can get sick, you will likely be substantially protected.  This is the concept that sadly so many millions of people do not understand when they refuse to get the flu shot each year because, "they often get the strains wrong".  They're missing the point entirely = another failing of the American public school system.


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## Dickc (Aug 11, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> The variants are morphologically similar enough that there is almost surely some level of cross-immunogenicity, so while you might not be immune & can get sick, you will likely be substantially protected.  This is the concept that sadly so many millions of people do not understand when they refuse to get the flu shot each year because, "they often get the strains wrong".  They're missing the point entirely = another failing of the American public school system.


I recall that in the early stages there was some talk that other corona viruses, ones that cause only common cold symptoms, were thought to give people some level of immunity to COVID 19.  So if you've had Covid 19 varient Alpha, you should be able to mount a pretty good immune response to any of the varients based on that early 2020 observation about the other corona viruses.


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## abc (Aug 11, 2021)

drjeff said:


> This is certainly a disease process that has far more variables than constants!


This is a virus known to mutate (just like most virus). Its high transmissibility increase the chance of mutation quite a bit. Immunologist had long fear this type of virus outbreak. The root of the fear is exactly because we don't have a lot of tools to either stop the transmission or treat the sick. But it's hard to get non-scientist to take it seriously AND do what's necessary to prepare for it. So we're now living the reality of what the scientist fear.

We now have vaccines. We now have some treatments. Neither are 100% effective. But that's the best we can do for now. You know what? Most treatments for diseases aren't 100% effective either. It's just when you have a highly transmissible virus, a tiny percentage of a large number of sick is... still a very large number of people!

Lockdown bought us time for the above. And if people would take the vaccine, we would be pretty darn close to normal without too much worry. But with so many people not taking the vaccine, we're caught between continue lockdown, or just let the unvaccinated get infected. And if a small percentage of them have to die, it's the price we should be willing to pay.

Get the hell back to normal! Let the purposely unvaccinated fend for themselves. Weekly testing, "natural vaccination", elimination from the human race... 

(those who are not able to be vaccinated, or those who know with some certainty they are Immunol compromised, will have to stay as socially distant from the rest. But most are used to that already. Life will be a bit more limited than prior, admittedly. Yes, sadly some will simply got unlucky and fell victim)


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 12, 2021)

abc said:


> or just let the unvaccinated get infected. And if a small percentage of them have to die, it's the price we should be willing to pay.


there is no price that I have to pay, its the price those who are purposefully unvaccinated are rolling the dice with.  I'm fine with it, the  heard needs thinned anyways.


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## gittist (Aug 17, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> there is no price that I have to pay, its the price those who are purposefully unvaccinated are rolling the dice with.  I'm fine with it, the  heard needs thinned anyways.


 I kinda of ok with that but what if the people dying were actually paying taxes? I realize the politicians will overspend the tax revenue no matter what but it's even worse if the tax revenue decreases due to people dying.


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 17, 2021)

I think we were talking proverbial price and not actual price.   But yes if 10% of the tax paying population dies off it does cost me money.


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## drjeff (Aug 17, 2021)

gittist said:


> I kinda of ok with that but what if the people dying were actually paying taxes? I realize the politicians will overspend the tax revenue no matter what but it's even worse if the tax revenue decreases due to people dying.


Some of that revenue answer likely is based a bit on how much one's estate may be subject to the Estate Tax (both at the current level and the current administratios higher level should it ever get passed as part of who knows what "COVID relief" and/or "Infrastructure" bill Congress may vote on, and how well, or not so well some may have tax sheltered their estates.

It does seem like anecdotally that while initially some significant tax payers/estates were passing away from COVID in larger numbers, that more and more currently arent likely to be as significant of an income tax payer (if at all) and/or have estates large enough to be subject to an Estate tax.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2021)

gittist said:


> I kinda of ok with that but what if the people dying were actually paying taxes? I realize the politicians will overspend the tax revenue no matter what but it's even worse if the tax revenue decreases due to people dying.



Two posters took this seriously, but I assumed it was a joke.


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## gittist (Aug 18, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Two posters took this seriously, but I assumed it was a joke.


Not really. I feel that the vaccinated are being punished because the people that are driving the new surge in COVID weren't. We were just notified that everyone has to wear a mask in order to attend one of our ski clubs picnic, inside or out!  Our other ski club will probably follow suit in a day or so. I can see that this ski season is already heading for the crapper!  I'm glad we didn't sign up for any trips, especially the bus ones!

I have no problem with people not getting vaccinated as long as the vaccinated aren't punished.  I know, no good deed goes unpunished.


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## abc (Aug 18, 2021)

gittist said:


> I feel that the vaccinated are being punished because the people that are driving the new surge in COVID weren't.


This is the new America! Those who don't take personal responsibility gets rescued while those who take the trouble to be prepared are left to fend for themselves.

My cousin's company (happened to be the same company as mine, but at different part of the country) had just "invited" all the vaccinated workers back to the office! Only declining the "invitation" isn't an option. But those who haven't vaccinated? They get to continue to work from home! 

Now I'm very glad I procrastinated in uploading my vaccination status. So far, no "invitation" to work in the office.


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## abc (Aug 18, 2021)

Which university?


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## drjeff (Aug 19, 2021)

PAabe said:


> So the university is making the marching band (who are all required to have vax) wear masks, outside in the fresh air, with *holes cut in them* while air is blown in and out right through them and the instruments.
> This place which is allegedly full of intelligent individuals... meanwhile 100ft away the bars are standing room only
> 
> you can't make this shit up



Just because one may be academically intelligent in their specific area of study, doesn't make them street smart/sensible by any means.

My in-laws are both retired college professionals (one in planr biology and one in Earth Sciences). They are both right around 80 years old (78 and 83). They are both vaccinated and in general good health and active.

When they were over at my house this week, we started talking COVID, Delta, and real risk factors. They were both convinced that their mortality rate should they contract COVID was over 30%.  They were still in disbelief when I showed them the CDC data that it was actually less than 5% for their general age demographic (and given that they are both relatively healthy, their real mortality rate is like much lowere given their lack of numerous co-morbidities. They still didn't belive the data, and these are 2 people who are well versed in data analysis and have written multiple academic texts and between the 2 of them have had hundreds of papers published in peer reveiewed scientific journals.

Their effective influential bias against what the actual data shows is that their primary news sources both before and during COVID are NPR and CNN.

How the data is presented often moreso than what the data actually shows, will often be how people view things


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## abc (Aug 19, 2021)

drjeff said:


> They still didn't believe the data, and these are 2 people who are well versed in data analysis and have written multiple academic texts and between the 2 of them have had hundreds of papers published in peer reveiewed scientific journals.


Maybe they know something you don’t? 

I’m only half joking. “Data”, even raw data, can itself be biased naturally. That’s half of data analysis is about. To account for all the natural biases & limitation in raw data, before the numerical analysis can then start. That part of the data analysis is very field specific. You or I typically don’t have the specific knowledge to judge how well that’s done. Nor do your in-laws. We have to trust those who did the work. But unfortunately, it’s more common than the general public realize how often bad conclusion came out of faulty data analysis. Those who work in academic are more aware of it than the general public. Given the time crunch, and human nature, I’m not surprised your in-laws are more skeptical of the recent papers on Covid. 

Doesn’t justify their baseless “disbelief”. Still, in normal research, one stays skeptical until more research either support or refutes it. Maybe that’s what they were expressing, withholding judgment  till more supporting evidence come along?

 Only in this case, time is what we younger people (and policy makers) don’t have. While the older retired folks have more of than us.


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## gittist (Aug 19, 2021)

abc said:


> This is the new America! Those who don't take personal responsibility gets rescued while those who take the trouble to be prepared are left to fend for themselves.
> ...
> Now I'm very glad I procrastinated in uploading my vaccination status. So far, no "invitation" to work in the office.



I 100% agree with the new America statement.


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## gittist (Aug 19, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Just because one may be academically intelligent in their specific area of study, doesn't make them street smart/sensible by any means.



I once had a Marine Gunnery Sergeant say "Officers have too much college and not enough high school."  I think it applies here also.


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## Hawk (Aug 19, 2021)

I'm still at work.  Doing my normal job.  Actualy have never left.  Vacinated and eating at my favorite resturaunts.  Leading my normal life.  Nothing to see here.  
Ignoring what is going on all around you is the new America where I stand.  I'm not going to fix anything or convince anyone of anything.  I gave up long ago and I find that I am way better off.


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## raisingarizona (Aug 19, 2021)

There’s too many people right now anyways. A little thinning of the herd may be good overall.


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## JimG. (Aug 19, 2021)

abc said:


> Only in this case, time is what we younger people (and policy makers) don’t have. While the older retired folks have more of than us.


So, older people have more time than younger people? That sounds illogical to me.

I must be living in a time warp.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 19, 2021)

Unfortunately the vaccinated are not being punished - people are hearing about vaccinated people getting COVID so the mask mandates are coming back,  The vaccinated unmasked are super spreaders, technically.  You may not know you have it or have minor symptoms and think you have an allergy, meanwhile you are exposing others both vaccinated and those who are not.

Addressing another topic - this country has always be lopsided on who they protect.  The few that are offended often change the rules.  the majority that are not offended do not complain.  Once the rules are changed then the majority start to complain and then it is too late!  In this case the vaccinated are the majority now and the unmasked procrastinators, anit-vaxers, and fearful of getting vaccinated are driving the agenda at the work place.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2021)

abc said:


> My cousin's company (happened to be the same company as mine, but at different part of the country) had just "invited"* all the vaccinated workers back to the office!* Only declining the "invitation" isn't an option. But* those who haven't vaccinated? They get to continue to work from home!*



This is specifically why I "failed" to email HR my vaccination status.  It's a moot point as I'm now approved for forever remote, but I kind of foresaw the above being a possibility.  It always felt like the cat was fishing for mouse hole locations.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2021)

PAabe said:


> So the university is making the marching band (who are all required to have vax) wear masks, outside in the fresh air, with *holes cut in them* while air is blown in and out right through them and the instruments.
> This place which is allegedly full of intelligent individuals... meanwhile 100ft away the bars are standing room only
> 
> you can't make this shit up



That's not science, that is a version of masks as self-righteous performance art.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2021)

BREAKING NEWS:  Anti-vaxxers come up with new excuse to not get COVID19 vaccine on Monday.


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## icecoast1 (Aug 20, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's not science, that is a version of masks as self-righteous performance art.


Some of these people could win an Emmy for best Actor/Actress in a Drama series


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 23, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> BREAKING NEWS:  Anti-vaxxers come up with new excuse to not get COVID19 vaccine on Monday.



and that is?


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Aug 23, 2021)

he's referring to pfizer getting full fda authorization today. lots of these assholes were using emergency authorization as their excuse to not get vaxxed.


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## Smellytele (Aug 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> he's referring to pfizer getting full fda authorization today. lots of these assholes were using emergency authorization as their excuse to not get vaxxed.


They already have - “vaccinated people still get covid so why bother?”
Although they aren’t getting any where near as sick as unvaccinated people.
Not my excuse but theirs.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 23, 2021)

ya, that cohort may not be reachable. but there's a group who claimed EUA was their hold up. so lets see if that group goes for it now, or they move to some other garbage excuse like the one you list


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## 2Planker (Aug 23, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> ya, that cohort may not be reachable. but there's a group who claimed EUA was their hold up. so lets see if that group goes for it now, or they move to some other garbage excuse like the one you list


This has been studied (Robert Wood Johnson Foundation ??) already and it's predicted that 25%-30% of the holdouts will now get the Vacc.

Seems optimistic to me.....


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## cdskier (Aug 23, 2021)

Was pretty surprised today to find out 2 of my co-workers haven't had the shot yet. This came to light because my company announced Friday that effective today, you need to be vaccinated to go into the office...and these happen to be the 2 people on my team that were actually going into the office once a week to help out with some things that need to be done in the office. Meanwhile we're a pharma company that makes vaccines, so there's absolutely no reason they should have been surprised to see a mandate like this finally enacted in our office. The writing was on the wall quite a while ago that this would be coming eventually...


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## jimmywilson69 (Aug 23, 2021)

so these 2 idiots get rewarded with working from home because they aren't vaxed...


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## Hawk (Aug 23, 2021)

In my opinion, working from home is hell and not a reward.  Monomtony.  I'd rather work in the office any day.


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## VTKilarney (Aug 23, 2021)

I managed to avoid Covi-19 until my breakthrough case late last week.  I felt like I had allergies - which I tend to get every year at this time.  Out of an abundance of caution I tested.  I was shocked when the result came back positive.  I am pretty much over it now.  Just a little nasal congestion.

To be honest, in a weird sort of way I am glad that I got it.  The anxiety was much worse than reality for me.  I have some travel plans in October, and I will be much less anxious about that.  I know that individual results may vary, but at least mine were no big deal.  No doubt being vaccinated helped with the symptoms.


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## x10003q (Aug 23, 2021)

Now that Pfizer is approved, all those citizen 'scientists' still doing 'research' can close up their labs.


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## cdskier (Aug 23, 2021)

jimmywilson69 said:


> so these 2 idiots get rewarded with working from home because they aren't vaxed...



Meanwhile me (and 1 other co-worker) who are vaxed (but have been full-time remote since last March), now most likely need to go into the office once in a while to do their work (at least until they get vaxed, which both did state they plan to do now).



Hawk said:


> In my opinion, working from home is hell and not a reward.  Monomtony.  I'd rather work in the office any day.


After being remote since last March, I disagree. At first I wasn't crazy about full-time remote, but now I vastly prefer it. I may miss seeing some people in person, but I don't miss the hassle of dealing with commuting one bit. A decent number of people I work with aren't in my physical office location anyway, so even in the office I don't "see" them and only meet with them through conference calls, etc.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 23, 2021)

Hawk said:


> *In my opinion, working from home is hell and not a reward. * Monomtony.  I'd rather work in the office any day.



You're not allowed to WFH full time, are you?


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## kingslug (Aug 24, 2021)

Anything would be better than coming in to this city anymore.


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## Hawk (Aug 24, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're not allowed to WFH full time, are you?


We been over this.  Yes most of my company is working from home and it is acceptable to the owners.  I just can not do it.  Day in and day out at the house would drive me nuts.  I work in Boston at Post Office Square.  Lots of ourdoor lunch options.  North End 10 minute walk.  I get to interact with people(My Clients) in person.  Walk to my contruction sites.  Review issues in person.  Things have been great the last 9 months.  Not to mention I have picked up work because I was there in person and at the office.  I know that it is a different world for desk jockies like financial guys, software, insurance, etc., but still, there is a big benefit to being close to your clients.  I have been told in the last month that I won the job becuase I was willing to go the extra yard and be there in person.  Walking 10 minutes to a client beats driving back and forth an hour from my house and I get to interact with the colleagues that have a like minded view of things and are in the office.


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## ss20 (Aug 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Anything would be better than coming in to this city anymore.



I can imagine.  I'm up in Danbury but go all around the area for work.  In the past 3-5ish years traffic has just become nuts.  It doesn't matter what time of day or the day of the week anymore- it's like Long Island in that you're going to hit traffic.  I-95 at mid-day travels between 25 and 45mph.  I-84 everywhere between 684 and Hartford is a total utter shitshow.  

It wasn't always like this...even just a decade ago.


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## x10003q (Aug 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I can imagine.  I'm up in Danbury but go all around the area for work.  In the past 3-5ish years traffic has just become nuts.  It doesn't matter what time of day or the day of the week anymore- it's like Long Island in that you're going to hit traffic.  I-95 at mid-day travels between 25 and 45mph.  I-84 everywhere between 684 and Hartford is a total utter shitshow.
> 
> It wasn't always like this...even just a decade ago.


CT has been a shytshow for decades. Everytime I head to Mass there is some issue. The stretch of 84 from 684 to Hartford with mostly 2 lanes is a disaster and has been since the mid 1980s. It is still the same size today. The fool who though adding Route 7 in thru Danbury without an expansion should be shot. This section is an alternative to 95 for traffic leaving New England and it is 2 lanes, yet it has never been expanded to 3 lanes.
The Merritt and 95 are their own nightmares, again due to the density of thru traffic from New England and the increase in local density in CT. 

I just looked at Google traffic - 95 is mostly red and orange from the NYS line to Milford, the Merritt has some orange and red, and  84 is red from Newtown to Danbury. It is 10 AM on a Tuesday in the summer. Crazy.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 24, 2021)

x10003q said:


> CT has been a shytshow for decades. Everytime I head to Mass there is some issue. The stretch of 84 from 684 to Hartford with mostly 2 lanes is a disaster and has been since the mid 1980s. It is still the same size today. The fool who though adding Route 7 in thru Danbury without an expansion should be shot. This section is an alternative to 95 for traffic leaving New England and it is 2 lanes, yet it has never been expanded to 3 lanes.
> The Merritt and 95 are their own nightmares, again due to the density of thru traffic from New England and the increase in local density in CT.
> 
> I just looked at Google traffic - 95 is mostly red and orange from the NYS line to Milford, the Merritt has some orange and red, and  84 is red from Newtown to Danbury. It is 10 AM on a Tuesday in the summer. Crazy.



I could never do that on a daily basis!


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## ss20 (Aug 24, 2021)

x10003q said:


> CT has been a shytshow for decades. Everytime I head to Mass there is some issue. The stretch of 84 from 684 to Hartford with mostly 2 lanes is a disaster and has been since the mid 1980s. It is still the same size today. The fool who though adding Route 7 in thru Danbury without an expansion should be shot. This section is an alternative to 95 for traffic leaving New England and it is 2 lanes, yet it has never been expanded to 3 lanes.
> The Merritt and 95 are their own nightmares, again due to the density of thru traffic from New England and the increase in local density in CT.
> 
> I just looked at Google traffic - 95 is mostly red and orange from the NYS line to Milford, the Merritt has some orange and red, and  84 is red from Newtown to Danbury. It is 10 AM on a Tuesday in the summer. Crazy.



It's always been bad at rush hours but it's never been constant like it is in the recent past. 

I had heard 84 and Route 7 were two lanes in Danbury and it was expanded to three lanes in the 80s when Praxair moved to Danbury.  They're working on studies to add more lanes but there won't be shovels in the ground til the 2030s...whatever expansion they do would be extremely major as there's a crapton of bridges and overpasses in this stretch. 

Every time I get stuck in traffic now I think of how happy I am I'm getting out of here!!!  I'd rather wait an hour to head up/down Little Cottonwood Canyon on a powder day to world-class skiing rather than have what-should-be a 15 minute commute to get home from work actually be 30-40 minutes.


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## drjeff (Aug 24, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> I could never do that on a daily basis!


I've lived in CT since 1993. Not sure if I can remember if there's been a time in those almost 30 years now that there hasn't been some type of construction going on in the general I-91/I-84 interchange area in Hartford..... And it's still often a traffic jam!  And that's nothing compared to what the majotiy of I-95 is on a regular basis!

The joys of living in a state that serves as bedroom communtiy for many regions as well as the pass through for the NYC-Boston commercial traffic and then through in a bit of tourism traffic along the shoreline especially....


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## kingslug (Aug 24, 2021)

Between everything that is going on..I think I might call it and head to Vt..I'm about as burnt out as ever and just see no reason to continue with this insanity. She want to keep the house in Ct as well but at least I can escape to Vt and start looking for a house up there...then sell Ct.


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## x10003q (Aug 24, 2021)

ss20 said:


> It's always been bad at rush hours but it's never been constant like it is in the recent past.
> 
> I had heard 84 and Route 7 were two lanes in Danbury and it was expanded to three lanes in the 80s when Praxair moved to Danbury.  They're working on studies to add more lanes but there won't be shovels in the ground til the 2030s...whatever expansion they do would be extremely major as there's a crapton of bridges and overpasses in this stretch.
> 
> Every time I get stuck in traffic now I think of how happy I am I'm getting out of here!!!  I'd rather wait an hour to head up/down Little Cottonwood Canyon on a powder day to world-class skiing rather than have what-should-be a 15 minute commute to get home from work actually be 30-40 minutes.


84 is 3 lanes thru Danbury, but most of the time the third lane is an exit only - both to the right and the wacky left exit to 7N.  FYI - now 1:11pm and, according to Google traffic, the highway is orange and mostly red from NYS to left exit to north bound Rt 7 and then red all the way to the Housatonic River.


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## kingslug (Aug 24, 2021)

The Merrit is backed up almost always now...and if there is a crash..there is no way out or a way to get to it..so everyone sits there.


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## cdskier (Aug 24, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The Merrit is backed up almost always now...and if there is a crash..there is no way out or a way to get to it..so everyone sits there.


That road is beautiful, yet terrifying at the same time.


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## kingslug (Aug 25, 2021)

The trees falling on it are especially nice.


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## drjeff (Aug 25, 2021)

kingslug said:


> The trees falling on it are especially nice.



That certainly is a CT trait not exclusive to the Merrit!


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## x10003q (Aug 25, 2021)

cdskier said:


> That road is beautiful, yet terrifying at the same time.


I love that you need a car with a 2 second 0-60mph time to get on the Merritt because the designers gave you a 10 foot entrance ramp for speed up.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 25, 2021)

just an old road built for different times. the parkway system on long island is the same.


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## 2Planker (Aug 25, 2021)

x10003q said:


> I love that you need a car with a 2 second 0-60mph time to get on the Merritt because the designers gave you a 10 foot entrance ramp for speed up.


The road was built for 45-50mph speeds.

No one ever thought people would be doing 70-75mph, on a good day.

Sadly,  a 10 foot merge area is just fine when it's crawling along at 10mph. 
So maybe the engineers from the 1930's really did know what they were doing....


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## kingslug (Aug 25, 2021)

And for more entertainment..I present..truck meets bridge...


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## 2Planker (Aug 25, 2021)

That's called gettin' Storrowed in Boston...
That'll happen 5-10 times over the next couple weeks as all the college kids come back to town


TOP DEFINITION
storrowed
putting a 12'6" truck under a 10'6" bridge. Common in Boston MA. Storrowing Season is usually during late August and Early Sept when College kids that cannot read attempt to navigate their way through the Corn maze roadways of Bahstahn. ( Boston) The rest of the year " Storrowing" occurs by Canadian Commercial Drivers.Je me souviens. DOH!!!
Court spotted a freshly Storrowed truck on the ramp to the Fenway from the outbound side this morning.

The company in question, FriendBox, makes boxes, so that's one boxed-in box box truck. They're based in Danvers, so you'd think they'd have heard about those quaint Storrow Drive height restrictions.


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## mbedle (Aug 25, 2021)

2Planker said:


> That's called gettin' Storrowed in Boston...
> That'll happen 5-10 times over the next couple weeks as all the college kids come back to town
> 
> 
> ...


11foot8.com


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## Smellytele (Aug 25, 2021)

mbedle said:


> 11foot8.com


Nice can opener!


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## ss20 (Aug 25, 2021)

Never understood why they don't install truck height "limbo bars" on all parkway entrances.  You're a 14ft truck?  Get smashed as you're speeding up on the on-ramp rather than slamming your truck into a low bridge at 70mph...snarling traffic, requiring a massive effort to get you unstuck, and potentially injuring someone else.  

I mean we're talking a couple concrete pillars and some steel here... incredibly small undertaking to save tons of time and frustration.


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## 2Planker (Aug 26, 2021)

I drive Storrow Dr everyday, to/from work.  
It's almost guaranteed that I'll have at least 1-2 days w/ a 30-40 min delay because of some moron.
Used to always be college kids in a UHaul, but recently it's been "professional drivers"


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## flakeydog (Aug 26, 2021)

I remember years ago sitting at the Storrow Dr/I93 clusterf**k intersection waiting to cross over to where the science museum is and seeing those duck boat vehicles going by.  Every one of them hit the plastic thing hanging down as you were to enter Storrow Dr.  Every 2 minutes, whack! whack!  I guess they knew something we didn't because I never saw one of those hung up on a bridge.


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## kingslug (Aug 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Never understood why they don't install truck height "limbo bars" on all parkway entrances.  You're a 14ft truck?  Get smashed as you're speeding up on the on-ramp rather than slamming your truck into a low bridge at 70mph...snarling traffic, requiring a massive effort to get you unstuck, and potentially injuring someone else.
> 
> I mean we're talking a couple concrete pillars and some steel here... incredibly small undertaking to save tons of time and frustration.


Exactly...


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## Edd (Aug 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Never understood why they don't install truck height "limbo bars" on all parkway entrances.  You're a 14ft truck?  Get smashed as you're speeding up on the on-ramp rather than slamming your truck into a low bridge at 70mph...snarling traffic, requiring a massive effort to get you unstuck, and potentially injuring someone else.
> 
> I mean we're talking a couple concrete pillars and some steel here... incredibly small undertaking to save tons of time and frustration.


Not familiar with these. How’s it work exactly?


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 26, 2021)

Edd said:


> Not familiar with these. How’s it work exactly?



you'd hit a movable hanging bar that indicates the bridge clearance while you still have a chance to turn back without causing major disruption. common in parking garages.


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2021)

There's also fancier over-height detectors that if your vehicle is too tall will activate warning lights on signs in front of you.


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## 2Planker (Aug 26, 2021)

Just another morning on Storrow Dr...


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## drjeff (Aug 26, 2021)

I love what the fine folks at Trillium Brewing did to honor the "tradition" of getting Storrowed!  


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCOib9pWOz_ICFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2021)

Never heard the term "Storrowed", is it a New England thing?


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## cdskier (Aug 26, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never heard the term "Storrowed", is it a New England thing?



I'd say more specifically it is a Boston area thing...


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## 2Planker (Aug 27, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Never heard the term "Storrowed", is it a New England thing?








"Storrowed" has become the term for *a truck getting stuck on Boston's Storrow Drive* because it's too tall for the overhanging bridges. ... Despite warnings from traffic officials and prevalent height limit signage, many trucks continue to get "Storrowed" each year.J..


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## deadheadskier (Aug 27, 2021)

And this weekend being one of the most common occurrences as all the new college students move in.  Wonder if uHual has a surcharge in Boston for this weekend.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 27, 2021)

off topic but this kinda seems to be the catch-all random vermont stuff thread and also doesn't warrant its own thread.

vivaaaaaa rut vegas









						Police identify man killed and officer in Rutland shooting
					

Cpl. Christopher Rose of the Rutland City Police Department fatally shot 33-year-old Florida resident Jonathan Daniel Mansilla in Rutland on Wednesday, police said.



					vtdigger.org


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## NYDB (Aug 27, 2021)

I wonder if he was in the ball pit when he got shot.


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## KustyTheKlown (Aug 27, 2021)

florida man crashes car, gets shot dead in local mcdonalds.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2021)

2Planker said:


> "Storrowed" has become the term for *a truck getting stuck on Boston's Storrow Drive* because it's too tall for the overhanging bridges. ... Despite warnings from traffic officials and prevalent height limit signage, many trucks continue to get "Storrowed" each year.J..


Thank you!  So yes, it is a very, very, very, very, localized term. lol


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> florida man crashes car, gets shot dead in local mcdonalds.



It's fitting that no matter where it occurs in America, true craziness is somehow always borne from Florida.

Godspeed to my 23 year old nephew, recently deputized in FL, who discharged his TASER on only his 3rd day on the job.


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## 2Planker (Aug 28, 2021)

Boston's WAAF (RIP) used to have the Hillman Morning Show, and one of their best daily segments was  - "FLORIDA NOT LIKE THE REST OF US"


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