# Attn. Killington, Chris Danforth, Marketing Manager - RE: SPRING SKIING



## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

Chris,

Now that Killington has released the "4-play" spring pass, can you give a hint as to what to expect from spring skiing at Killington this year? 



> *SAVE BIG THIS SPRING WITH THE 4-PLAY PASS*.
> 
> Spring is around the corner and so is the snowiest month of the year, March! To celebrate the soft snow, warmer temps and a jam packed lineup of great events, we’re offering the absolute best deal on lift tickets with the 4-Play Pass for just $199! You’ll enjoy four days of skiing and riding with no blackout dates for less than $50 a day starting February 27 through the end of the 2011-12 winter season.
> 
> Plus, once you’ve purchased the 4-Play Pass and used your four days of discounted skiing and riding, you can reload your pass with more $49 lift tickets either on Killington’s E-Store or at any open ticket window.


 
We have seen fairly strong snowmaking efforts on OL, Lower Skyeburst, and Skyelark, and Superstar. Snowmaking has been fairly thin in the canyon and snowdon. Will Killington consider a Superstar/Skyepeak Quad spring operation that keeps Bear mountain (with the parks and OL) as long as possible? Which might need some more snowmaking on upper skyeburst?

Will Killington stay open later than the first weekend in May? Will they try weekend only operations? Will Bear stay open later than the first weekend in April? Will Killington attract visitors from other areas?

There are lots of rumors floating around, it would be helpful to hear something from Killington on this.

Thanks,

HS.


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

Can I just ask a general question. Is there anything anyone can say that everyone would be happy with? If not, I wonder how useful this question really is, or if it is more of an attempt just to stir the pot .... just saying.

I mean I hope something good comes of it... .just would prefer to see some productive or good discussion here is all.


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> Can I just ask a general question. Is there anything anyone can say that everyone would be happy with? If not, I wonder how useful this question really is, or if it is more of an attempt just to stir the pot .... just saying.


 
I think it's a perfectly legit question because:

- They just released a spring pass product
- Customers may like to know what to expect this year
- People like to make plans
- They are very unpredictable lately, mostly in a good way.

Please.


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## skiersleft (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> Can I just ask a general question. Is there anything anyone can say that everyone would be happy with? If not, I wonder how useful this question really is, or if it is more of an attempt just to stir the pot .... just saying.
> 
> I mean I hope something good comes of it... .just would prefer to see some productive or good discussion here is all.



As a K season pass holder who brings up many friends to ski at K, I, am curious as to what's their plan for this spring. However, I'm pretty sure that HS won't be satisfied with any answer other than: we plan to open until the snow melts and open weekends only if need be, and we will keep bear open until mid to late April and we will run both Skye Peak and Superstar until we can't. Any other answer will lead to his usual rants and sickening epic fail crap. Since we're not going to get that answer, let's close this thread and keep debating helmet use in the other thread.


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

While I know Chris checks in on the forums from time to time I probably wouldn't expect a response here as I see it as being somewhat baiting ... I know the questions are real and so forth but it sure feels like a trap :lol: 

I would suggest trying to email them or ask them on their facebook page or something more direct and personal. A callout seems like a strange way to go about this.


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## pepperdawg (Feb 22, 2012)

Free Da Dis!!!!!


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> As a K season pass holder who brings up many friends to ski at K, I, am curious as to what's their plan for this spring. However, I'm pretty sure that HS won't be satisfied with any answer other than: we plan to open until the snow melts and open weekends only if need be, and we will keep bear open until mid to late April and we will run both Skye Peak and Superstar until we can't. Any other answer will lead to his usual rants and sickening epic fail crap. Since we're not going to get that answer, let's close this thread and keep debating helmet use in the other thread.


 
Actually, no, I'm just asking.  :roll:


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> While I know Chris checks in on the forums from time to time I probably wouldn't expect a response here as I see it as being somewhat baiting ... I know the questions are real and so forth but it sure feels like a trap :lol:
> 
> I would suggest trying to email them or ask them on their facebook page or something more direct and personal. A callout seems like a strange way to go about this.


 
I have private messaged him on another topic but did not get a response.  I don't use facebook for all the obvious reasons.

Maybe I'll just ask his boss next time I see him at Killington.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick brings u[ a good point Highwaystar.  Why the call out?  Why not just send him an email?

That's not to suggest that I don't enjoy industry rep involvement in the forums.  I very much do and think dangah is a great contributor to discussion here.

It would just seem that given your very public internet war you've waged with Powd'r over the years, that a thread like this is designed to lure dangah in and then attack responses you're not happy with.


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Nick brings u[ a good point Highwaystar. Why the call out? Why not just send him an email?
> 
> That's not to suggest that I don't enjoy industry rep involvement in the forums. I very much do and think dangah is a great contributor to discussion here.
> 
> It would just seem that given your very public internet war you've waged with Powd'r over the years, that a thread like this is designed to lure dangah in and then attack responses you're not happy with.


 
I don't see how this is in any way a call out.   I am asking an industry rep a direct question on a public forum in a very polite manner.


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## skiersleft (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I don't see how this is in any way a call out.   I am asking an industry rep a direct question on a public forum in a very polite manner.



If you don't see it, then you obviously forgot who you are and what your forum history is.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 22, 2012)

It seems like a legitimate question(s), but the reality is that you are not going to get "firm" comitments on a closing date.  Maybe they will reveal their hand on the operations.   Hell maybey they will even take HS's idea of runing the Superstar and Skyepeak lift in the spring, which seems like a completely viable option.


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> If you don't see it, then you obviously forgot who you are and what your forum history is.


 
There is a huge difference between a politely asked legitimate question vs. callout.  I don't have a problem with Chris Danforth, Killington Marketing Manager, who posts on here.


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

jimmywilson69 said:


> It seems like a legitimate question(s), but the reality is that you are not going to get "firm" comitments on a closing date. Maybe they will reveal their hand on the operations. Hell maybey they will even take HS's idea of runing the Superstar and Skyepeak lift in the spring, which seems like a completely viable option.


 
Not expecting a commitment, it is way too far out.  Just asking some sort of clue as to what they are thinking.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> I know the questions are real and so forth but* it sure feels like a trap *


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## Riverskier (Feb 22, 2012)

Holy crap people, give HS a break! These are legitimate questions, asked in a polite manner, and I am sure the answers would interest many people on this board.


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## ski_resort_observer (Feb 22, 2012)

> Spring is around the corner and so is the snowiest month of the year, March!



While I see many people say March is the snowiest month, unfortunately that is a often repeated myth. In Vermont the snowiest is Jan, Feb, Dec then March.

"January is typically the snowiest month with median snowfall of 19.5 inches. The record snowiest month since records began was December 1970 with 56.7 inches."   -NOAA


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## andyzee (Feb 22, 2012)

If it was a spring pass, I would agree with HS. But this is a four day  pass. This attempt = FAIL


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 22, 2012)

ski_resort_observer said:


> *While I see many people say March is the snowiest month*, unfortunately that is a often repeated myth. In Vermont the snowiest is Jan, Feb, Dec then March.



I wasnt going to say anything, but yeah, I read that from Killington and did a, huh?   

Not that the difference between the snowfall in any of the 4 months is massively dramatically different, but March statistically has the least snow of any of the 4 months.  It's common sense if you're thinking about averages, as cold is a necessary condition for snow.


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## awf170 (Feb 22, 2012)

ski_resort_observer said:


> While I see many people say March is the snowiest month, unfortunately that is a often repeated myth. In Vermont the snowiest is Jan, Feb, Dec then March.
> 
> "January is typically the snowiest month with median snowfall of 19.5 inches. The record snowiest month since records began was December 1970 with 56.7 inches."   -NOAA



What you're quoting is for the valley. Which is completely irrelevant to what happens on the mountain.


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

well hopefully march is the snowiest month this year. Since the rest of them haven't been that great.


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## skiersleft (Feb 22, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I wasnt going to say anything, but yeah, I read that from Killington and did a, huh?
> 
> Not that the difference between the snowfall in any of the 4 months is massively dramatically different, but March statistically has the least snow of any of the 4 months.  It's common sense if you're thinking about averages, as cold is a necessary condition for snow.



At Killington, March has historically been the snowiest month. While Killington is in Vermont, state averages don't necessarily coincide with averages at ski resorts, as mountains have their own microclimates that makes precip there differ from precip at valley locales. Also, note that  while it's true that cold is a necessary condition snow, that's also true about moisture rich disturbances. While March is not as cold as January or February, it's usually stormier because you get more clashes of cool and warm airmasses. Since Vermont at higher elevations remains pretty cold in March and it's very stormy, you often get significant snowfall. I agree that the difference between these months is not very significant, but it's technically correct that march is the snowiest month at Killington on average. Here are the stats:

http://www.killington.com/winter/mountain/mountain_info/historical_weather


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Holy crap people, give HS a break! These are legitimate questions, asked in a polite manner, and I am sure the answers would interest many people on this board.



I agree on all points. But as DHS and others have said, I know HS has issues with the way Powdr operates, and hey, that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If someone else had asked this question I wouldn't have had the hunch on baiting that I have here. 

Like others have said, it's probably too early for an intelligible answer on the plans for the spring, particularly given the type of season we have had so far, and on top of that I can't imagine what answer might be given that would lead HS to say, "Sounds perfect!". :lol: 

Anyway - as long as it's kept civil in here we can keep the thread open. I'll take your word for it, HS. I value the industry representation in AlpineZone a lot, from resorts across the northeast, and that doesn't mean we don't ask tough questions (the AZ Challenge usually has some very difficult questions) - but they are aggregated and filtered in a way that can be responded to in a controlled manner. If there were threads springing up all the time baiting all the industry reps, you can bet they would disappear from the site. 

Internet forums... when it comes to stuff like this ... you can never make everyone happy.


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## gmcunni (Feb 22, 2012)

andyzee said:


> If it was a spring pass, I would agree with HS. But this is a four day  pass. This attempt = FAIL



isn't that telling in of itself?  they've abandoned the spring pass and just offer discounted days.. no hope of a late spring @ K???


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## drjeff (Feb 22, 2012)

andyzee said:


> If it was a spring pass, I would agree with HS. But this is a four day  pass. This attempt = FAIL



Maybe for what you might be looking for AZ, it could be viewed as a FAIL,  but for someone like myself (or a season passholder to another mountain that usually closes in early April) this has some potential.

Us Mount Snow regulars have been told that weather permitting, they'll spin the lifts through Easter (April 8th this year) and then after that operations would be based on the old "snow and business conditions permitting" plan.  If March doesn't deliver with some decent snowfall, this is an option that I might have to think about, especially after I head up to K in a few weeks so my kids can race in the Mountain Dew Vertical Challenge qualifier and see what the snow situation is like there 1st hand.

If K came out and said something to the extent of "as of now, weather permitting we plan on operating daily through ?? and then after that based on snow and business levels on weekends" that would really tempt me to plop down the VISA card and buy a few for the family


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## TheBEast (Feb 22, 2012)




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## drjeff (Feb 22, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> isn't that telling in of itself?  they've abandoned the spring pass and just offer discounted days.. no hope of a late spring @ K???



Maybe they're looking at it as a way to get folks who might not have committed to a more expensive spring pass because of the other activities that tend to pop up in late March/April and possibly beyond and they we're worried that they wouldn't get their $$'s worth out of it into a shorter term item, with the ability to add on some more days if they find the need to do so.  If the old standard for a spring pass is about $300, then that person would have to get 7 days on the hill for them to feel like a more traditional unlimited # of days spring pass would have been a better deal.  I'm guessing that far more people would use it/have used a spring pass in the past, for less than 7 days than more than 7 days??


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## 2knees (Feb 22, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> Holy crap people, give HS a break! These are legitimate questions, asked in a polite manner, and I am sure the answers would interest many people on this board.





Highway Star said:


> *SERIOUSLY?????????*


.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 22, 2012)

Didn't see this thread at 1st so I posted the 4-play pass in the skiing on the cheap thread.

As for historical snowfall this is right off the Killington web page.

SNOWFALL AVERAGES
November 	29 inches
December 	33 inches
January 	52 inches
February 	55 inches
March 	57 inches
April 	24 inches

(Measured at the 4,000-foot level below the summit of Killington Peak)

I hope they stay open late. I know last year they closed May 1 with plenty of snow still left on both Superstar & Skyelark (I was there). I'd guess they could have stayed open for at least another 2 weeks, maybe more. There were plenty of people skiing the last day but I don't know how many were season pass holders as opposed to day ticket sales. Be interesting to see what they do this year since they erected the 2 umbrella bars at the base of Superstar that weren't there before this season.


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## 2knees (Feb 22, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I hope they stay open late. I know last year they closed May 1 with plenty of snow still left on both Superstar & Skyelark (I was there). I'd guess they could have stayed open for at least another 2 weeks, maybe more. There were plenty of people skiing the last day but I don't know how many were season pass holders as opposed to day ticket sales. Be interesting to see what they do this year since they erected the 2 umbrella bars at the base of Superstar that weren't there before this season.



last year closing with wall to wall (almost) coverage on ss was sad.  It was busy no doubt and the lines on ss were fantastic.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4578&d=1304293156

that being said, it's hard to believe they'll go as far this year based on the lack of snow and what seems to be a lack of interest in skiing at this point from the casual skier.

but i'm sure Mr. Danforth will come into this thread and give us a concrete answer to that.....


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## steamboat1 (Feb 22, 2012)

2knees said:


> last year closing with wall to wall (almost) coverage on ss was sad.  It was busy no doubt and the lines on ss were fantastic.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4578&d=1304293156
> 
> ...



Like the pic. It was a beautiful warm sunny day. I think is was the only day I got to ski in a t-shirt last year.


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## skiersleft (Feb 22, 2012)

2knees said:


> last year closing with wall to wall (almost) coverage on ss was sad.  It was busy no doubt and the lines on ss were fantastic.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4578&d=1304293156
> 
> ...



1. There is no lack of snow over at Superstar. They have as much or more snow there than they had last year. They really hit it hard the last couple of weeks.

2. Casual skiers won't ski Killington in May regardless of how much snow fell in Winter. Casual skiers are done in March. If K is going to see a lot of visits, it's going to be from hardcore skiers, not casual ones (usually season pass holders at other hills that close in April).


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## 2knees (Feb 22, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> 1. There is no lack of snow over at Superstar. They have as much or more snow there than they had last year. They really hit it hard the last couple of weeks.
> 
> 2. Casual skiers won't ski Killington in May regardless of how much snow fell in Winter. Casual skiers are done in March. If K is going to see a lot of visits, it's going to be from hardcore skiers, not casual ones (usually season pass holders at other hills that close in April).



cant speak to the first but the second i agree with.  problem is, powdr has basically said there is no interest in late skiing in years that havent seen decreased visits in winter.  I find it hard to believe they won't take the easy out this year and call it a season earlier based on the reduction in visits they have had ytd.  We have had the "who skis in may" discussion here a million times before.  long before you were a member.  not trying to get into that again at all.


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## RustyK (Feb 22, 2012)

Wow!


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> 2. Casual skiers won't ski Killington in May regardless of how much snow fell in Winter. Casual skiers are done in March. If K is going to see a lot of visits, it's going to be from hardcore skiers, not casual ones (usually season pass holders at other hills that close in April).


 


2knees said:


> cant speak to the first but the second i agree with. problem is, powdr has basically said there is no interest in late skiing in years that havent seen decreased visits in winter. I find it hard to believe they won't take the easy out this year and call it a season earlier based on the reduction in visits they have had ytd. We have had the "who skis in may" discussion here a million times before. long before you were a member. not trying to get into that again at all.


 
Without excessively rehashing the last 5 years, POWDR-Killington has said and done many other things and eventually changed their minds after seeing the reality of things.

I spent 3 weekends early season this year riding the glades triple singles line.  Very rarely did I ride with a Killington local or passholder.  I rode with people from sugarbush, stowe, burlington, albany, NJ, NYC, MA, mt. snow, CT, NH.  Everyone was skiing on a day ticket, or a 2-for-1 ticket.  There were 20 minute lines, it was mobbed, because Killington was the only game in town.


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## bigbob (Feb 22, 2012)

Closing of coarse will be weather dependant. Somebody here or over at K Zone posted an April 29th closing date. Yes.they have blown a shitload of snow on Skylark and Superstar, the pile at the top was ENORMOUS today. And todays 3"+ "Dump" helps.


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## mister moose (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Chris,
> 
> <snipped for clarity>
> 
> ...



Attention Dangah:
A few years ago, I believe before your tenure, Killington made the public statement that Killington would stay open to May.  They closed that year a week prior than stated with wall to wall coverage on Superstar, after selling spring passes that were advertised as staying open later than that.

There have been other similar inconsistent statements.

Since no one can predict the spring weather, no one expects a firm date for any trail pod closing.  Until such time as decisions are made to _make the commitment _to stay open as late as possible, meaning the same or similar "some walking required" standard we have seen early season, I see no reason to answer the first 3 questions and stick your neck on the block.  You (Meaning the guy with the checkbook) either want to take the steps necessary to stay open as long as the snow lasts, or you don't. You either want that reputation of latest and biggest spring skiing, or you don't.  This year with a decent pile on Superstar and the new U-bars,  I think we should just watch what happens.  Of course, watching what happens means no one can make any plans, and there are lots of folks that want to make plans. You know those folks, they plan weeks in advance.  So you do lose some momentum that way.  Me, I can make plans the night before.

The weekends only question though is a simple yes or no.  I'd be interested in that one.

The last question is a crystal ball question.  Although I think the safe answer is yes.


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## dangah (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Chris,
> 
> Now that Killington has released the "4-play" spring pass, can you give a hint as to what to expect from spring skiing at Killington this year?
> 
> ...



Thanks for your polite question :grin: and sorry for the delayed response. I am only checking in on the forum every week or so.  A friend let me know about this particular thread. In the future, please send your Killington related questions to info@killington.com so we can get you a quick response.

As you and several folks have pointed out, we have been working on building our spring base in the Superstar area and things are starting to look pretty good. It is our intention to operate the Superstar area through the end of April, conditions permitting (of course). We do not expect to operate the Bear area any later than we have in the last several years, meaning April 1 this year.

I hope this info helps.


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## powhunter (Feb 22, 2012)

2knees said:


> last year closing with wall to wall (almost) coverage on ss was sad.  It was busy no doubt and the lines on ss were fantastic.
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4578&d=1304293156
> 
> ...




Last year a week *AFTER* they closed


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

dangah said:


> Thanks for your polite question :grin: and sorry for the delayed response. I am only checking in on the forum every week or so. A friend let me know about this particular thread. In the future, please send your Killington related questions to info@killington.com so we can get you a quick response.
> 
> As you and several folks have pointed out, we have been working on building our spring base in the Superstar area and things are starting to look pretty good. It is our intention to operate the Superstar area through the end of April, conditions permitting (of course). We do not expect to operate the Bear area any later than we have in the last several years, meaning April 1 this year.
> 
> I hope this info helps.


 
Thanks, guess I'll have to take it up with Nyberg next time I see him.


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## skiersleft (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't even want to see what this will now become, but, like a bad horror movie, I'm still drawn to it. Pass me the  and let the show begin.


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> I don't even want to see what this will now become, but, like a bad horror movie, I'm still drawn to it. Pass me the  and let the show begin.


 
I won't spend any more money with Killington Resort or resort owned businesses this year, and will buy a blackout pass for next year (instaid of a full pass). Will urge others to do the the same. Will not be inviting any guests. 

Pretty standard stuff, really. I had started spending money with them again this year since they seemed to have really turned a corner, but this proves that the guy at the top still just doesn't get it.


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## ozzy (Feb 22, 2012)

Then why make a butt load of snow on SS when only planning to spin till 4/29?
I mean K could of made a whole lot less snow there to make it that far

Attn 350"naturalsnow. Now's your time to shine..


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

ozzy said:


> Then why make a butt load of snow on SS when only planning to spin till 4/29?


 
I would have rather seen that snow on Dipper or Downdraft.    uke:


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## ozzy (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I would have rather seen that snow on Dipper or Downdraft.    uke:



Still doesn't make sense to me. Why build the umbrella bars and capture that market that is already there if not planning on running until May 6. We'll see i suppose. I mean there is a crap load of snow on SS. Even with a warm spring they could go deep


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

ozzy said:


> Still doesn't make sense to me. Why build the umbrella bars and capture that market that is already there if not planning on running until May 6. We'll see i suppose. I mean there is a crap load of snow on SS. Even with a warm spring they could go deep


 
I was thinking the 2nd or 3rd weekend in May, really.  I honestly don't what the heck they are thinking operationally here.    uke:


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

ozzy said:


> Still doesn't make sense to me. Why build the umbrella bars and capture that market that is already there if not planning on running until May 6. We'll see i suppose. I mean there is a crap load of snow on SS. Even with a warm spring they could go deep



I thought the umbrella bar was intended to be a temporary structure


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> I thought the umbrella bar was intended to be a temporary structure


 
It's about a $500k structure from the rumors I heard, far from temporary.   They were happy to see superstar pub go, from what I understand, in that they didn't particularly go out of their way to save it during Irene.


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## WWF-VT (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I spent 3 weekends early season this year riding the glades triple singles line.  Very rarely did I ride with a Killington local or passholder.  I rode with people from sugarbush, stowe, burlington, albany, NJ, NYC, MA, mt. snow, CT, NH.  Everyone was skiing on a day ticket, or a 2-for-1 ticket.  There were 20 minute lines, it was mobbed, because Killington was the only game in town.



I'm a Sugarbush passholder who did a 2 for 1 day with my son at Killington in October.  It's a good way ro get a day in early.  Killington is not "the only game in town" in the spring with so many other mountains open as long or later than Killington.  The financial upside for Killington is neglible in the spring as most passholders at other mountains aren't goingt o buy a ticket at Killington.


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## andyzee (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I won't spend any more money with Killington Resort or resort owned businesses this year, and will buy a blackout pass for next year (instaid of a full pass). Will urge others to do the the same. Will not be inviting any guests.
> 
> Pretty standard stuff, really. I had started spending money with them again this year since they seemed to have really turned a corner, but this proves that the guy at the top still just doesn't get it.




Weren't you boycotting Killington like 3 yrs ago and stating that you're going to buy a Stowe Pass?


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## ozzy (Feb 22, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> I'm a Sugarbush passholder who did a 2 for 1 day with my son at Killington in October.  It's a good way ro get a day in early.  Killington is not "the only game in town" in the spring with so many other mountains open as long or later than Killington.  The financial upside for Killington is neglible in the spring as most passholders at other mountains aren't goingt o buy a ticket at Killington.



Perhaps, but it has easier access to metro markets


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## AdironRider (Feb 22, 2012)

We close April 8th. Last year we opened back up (well the tram did and you had to walk to the gates) on Memorial Day with top to bottom skiing. Targhee made it pretty much to July 4th. They closed too. 

Its always a bummer to have a mountain close earlier than they need to, but I see the reasons why. From an accounting perspective it can kill you, especially if skier visits are already down. We lose all transient guests (aka the ones eating at the restaurants and buying day tickets) mid March in a good year. PBR sales double though, so you got that going for you. 

Either way, Killington still had a good season given the cards dealt IMO. Theyve been open since October. If they make it to even April 29th thats one of the longest seasons you can ask for on the East Coast, let alone the west. Ours will be two months shorter.


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## Highway Star (Feb 22, 2012)

andyzee said:


> Weren't you boycotting Killington like 3 yrs ago and stating that you're going to buy a Stowe Pass?



I consider going to Stowe or Sugarbush after/before every season.

When they closed in late April a few years back (after saying they would be open to May), I downgraded my pass for the next year, didn't buy a parking pass, and didn't spend ANY money with Killington the next season.  I personally know multiple other people who downgraded their passes that year.

Thus, as I said before, this is nothing new.  They've completely alienated the Killington community and most of the diehard skiers in the northeast.....and just when you think they are going to finally "get-it" and start winning people back.....NOPE!!!   If they didn't annoy people constantly, they would certainly have more enthusiastic and willing customers.  I know people would certainly be much more willing to spend money with them in the spring if they were open until at least mid May.

The umbrella bars are nice, but they are going to look pretty silly with nobody in them and hundreds of people out on the access road BBQ'ing this March and April.


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> It's about a $500k structure from the rumors I heard, far from temporary.   They were happy to see superstar pub go, from what I understand, in that they didn't particularly go out of their way to save it during Irene.



I have a hard time believing that is 500k. You can build a pretty nice house for that kind of dough.....


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## Nick (Feb 22, 2012)

Nick said:


> I have a hard time believing that is 500k. You can build a pretty nice house for that kind of dough.....



Edit.... in thinking more with demo and clean up efforts I could see those kind of dollars


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## 2knees (Feb 22, 2012)

Regardless of exact date, I plan on being there if it's soft.

Yee-Haw!


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## 2knees (Feb 22, 2012)

Nice to see a post by Ozzy.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I consider going to Stowe or Sugarbush after/before every season.



If you opted to go with a Stowe pass, would you buy day tickets to Killington early and late season?  Stowe rarely opens prior to Thanksgiving weekend and usually closes around the 3rd weekend in April.  A couple of years I lived in Stowe, you could still manage top to bottom skiing for at least 3 weeks after the lifts stopped spinning.

I've always wondered if it would make more financial sense for Killington to reduce operations to a 5 day per week schedule starting April 1st and then tack on 3 weekends in May.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd think they'd make more profit operating those 3 extra weekends than they would spinning lifts the four Tuesdays and Wednesdays during April.  I'd imagine they would make a lot more customers happy offering the May product than the customers they'd piss off being closed midweek in April.  

We'll just have to see how things turn out.  I know they've gotten my business early and late season each of the last three seasons and will again this season.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 23, 2012)

April 1 is far to early to be closing mid week. I can see them going weekend only in May. If they decided to close mid week as of April 1 next year I'd be getting my pass to Sugarbush instead of Killington as I'm sure many others would.

I've skied a few times in May, not many people there so who are they satisfying. On the other hand there are still a substantial amount of people there mid week in April so they'd be pissing off a lot more people. But they seem to like pissing people off so who knows.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> April 1 is far to early to be closing mid week. I can see them going weekend only in May. If they decided to close mid week as of April 1 next year I'd be getting my pass to Sugarbush instead of Killington as I'm sure many others would.



You honestly wouldn't want to forfeit midweek skiing in April (just two days, Tuesday and Wednesday) if it meant extending Killington's season to third week in May?  

I'd do it a heartbeat.  

It makes the most sense for the ski areas bottom line I'm sure.  Ski areas are freaking ghost towns midweek in April.  Hell, they're ghost towns and most likely losing money midweek most of the season.  At least Northeastern ski areas are.


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## drjeff (Feb 23, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> You honestly wouldn't want to forfeit midweek skiing in April (just two days, Tuesday and Wednesday) if it meant extending Killington's season to third week in May?
> 
> I'd do it a heartbeat.
> 
> It makes the most sense for the ski areas bottom line I'm sure.  Ski areas are freaking ghost towns midweek in April.  Hell, they're ghost towns and most likely losing money midweek most of the season.  At least Northeastern ski areas are.



I could see a schedule such as daily operations through Easter weekend (or say the 2nd weekend in April depending on when Easter falls that year) and then a Friday - Monday operating schedule as long as the business and snow is there.  Possible full week operation during April school vacation week could be an option too.

Then having the marketing department go to work with promoting this and getting some events going for atleast the Saturday of every weekend in April and into May.  

I have to think that most GM's when they look at the daily numbers mid week in April and beyond, don't see to many Tuesday's, Wednesday's and Thursday's where the daily operations expenses are covered, and the overall philosophy for many (not all) ski resorts nowadays is different than it used to be back in the "ski into June" hey day's of 15+ years ago.


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## Highway Star (Feb 23, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> If you opted to go with a Stowe pass, would you buy day tickets to Killington early and late season? Stowe rarely opens prior to Thanksgiving weekend and usually closes around the 3rd weekend in April. A couple of years I lived in Stowe, you could still manage top to bottom skiing for at least 3 weeks after the lifts stopped spinning.


 
As much as I like stowe, I'd be more likely to defect to sugarbush due to the drive distance, cost, variety, and availablity of ski houses.  I would probably ski a few days early season at Killington, but I would also break out my touring setup alot more (weather and conditions permitting).


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## Highway Star (Feb 23, 2012)

drjeff said:


> I could see a schedule such as daily operations through Easter weekend (or say the 2nd weekend in April depending on when Easter falls that year) and then a Friday - Monday operating schedule as long as the business and snow is there. Possible full week operation during April school vacation week could be an option too.
> 
> Then having the marketing department go to work with promoting this and getting some events going for atleast the Saturday of every weekend in April and into May.
> 
> I have to think that most GM's when they look at the daily numbers mid week in April and beyond, don't see to many Tuesday's, Wednesday's and Thursday's where the daily operations expenses are covered, and the overall philosophy for many (not all) ski resorts nowadays is different than it used to be back in the "ski into June" hey day's of 15+ years ago.


 
I think they should go to a Friday-Sunday operation after spring vacation week, and allow Midweek passes.  Offer multiple discount ticket options.


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## Geoff (Feb 23, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I think they should go to a Friday-Sunday operation after spring vacation week, and allow Midweek passes.  Offer multiple discount ticket options.



Once they shrink down to just Superstar, I think "Midweek, we only open on sunny days" would be fine.   If it's pissing liquid, below freezing and overcast with death crunch, or the hill is socked in, nobody shows up anyways.   It's not like it takes a big staff to run one lift.    They can close the base lodge and serve pre-made food at the umbrella bar.


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## gmcunni (Feb 23, 2012)

any update from K mgt yet?


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## steamboat1 (Feb 23, 2012)

I can't believe some are arguing for reduced operations in April. Especially in a year that it is highly likely there won't be any skiing in May anyway regardless of what they do. I love spring skiing & usually ski more days in April than any other month of the season. Like I said if they shut down during the week in April I'll be taking my business elsewhere next season.

A couple of my buddy's & me always skied the 1st weekend in May regardless of conditions. Many years K-1 & Snowdon would still be on line that weekend. How many here think that will be the case this year? We still do our last ski fling together every year but the past several years the date has moved up to the 3rd weekend in April because we can't reliably depend on them being open for the 1st weekend in May. This year it will be the weekend of April 21-22. If anyone cares to join us your welcome. We can comfortably sleep up to 50 people in our SC lodge.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 23, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> any update from K mgt yet?


Yeh, they're closing Bear April 1.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 23, 2012)

Nick said:


> Edit.... in thinking more with demo and clean up efforts I could see those kind of dollars


Didn't Win Smith say on these boards that it cost him $800,000 for repairs at Sugarbush after Irene ?

Considering Killington had much more damage than Sugarbush that $500,000 figure seems rather low.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I can't believe some are arguing for reduced operations in April. Especially in a year that it is highly likely there won't be any skiing in May anyway regardless of what they do..



The scenario I proposed had the caveat "if it meant 2 or 3 more weekends of operation in May".  I would absolutely support reduced April operations if it meant lifts spinning well into May.  

I would not support reduced operations in April if the mountain was going to close at the end of the month anyways.


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## bigbob (Feb 23, 2012)

Que the crickets for a Killlington management response


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2012)

They responded on page 4


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## gmcunni (Feb 23, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> They responded on page 4



oops, i missed that the first time.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 23, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I think they should go to a Friday-Sunday operation after spring vacation week, and allow Midweek passes.  Offer multiple discount ticket options.



When is Spring Vacation Week? Ours changes every year, and often is not the same as other school districts.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 23, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Once they shrink down to just Superstar, I think "Midweek, we only open on sunny days" would be fine.   If it's pissing liquid, below freezing and overcast with death crunch, or the hill is socked in, nobody shows up anyways.   It's not like it takes a big staff to run one lift.    They can close the base lodge and serve pre-made food at the umbrella bar.



How do you tell the employees that they will only be working on sunny days?


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## Geoff (Feb 23, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> How do you tell the employees that they will only be working on sunny days?



For one lift?   They can use the full-timers


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 23, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> How do you tell the employees that they will only be working on sunny days?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point is that if you do not tell them to stay home without pay, then how much money are you really saving? I guess electric for the lift?


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## steamboat1 (Feb 23, 2012)

The other major players in VT. would love to see K shut down during the week if only for a couple of days. This conversation is rediculous, it'll never happen.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 23, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> How do you tell the employees that they will only be working on sunny days?





Ski the Moguls said:


> My point is that if you do not tell them to stay home without pay, then how much money are you really saving? I guess electric for the lift?



"On Call" work schedule is quite common in service industry employment.  The lifties contact their manager at 6:30 to find out if they are needed to work that day.


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## Geoff (Feb 24, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> My point is that if you do not tell them to stay home without pay, then how much money are you really saving? I guess electric for the lift?



My point is that it takes 3 people to operate one lift plus somebody to man the Umbrella Bar and sell day tickets from it.   You need one sled dog.   I'm quite confident that Killington has more than 5 full time employees to fill in for these roles.

And it's daylight savings time.   The lifts should run 10-5 in April.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 24, 2012)

Geoff said:


> And it's daylight savings time.   The lifts should run 10-5 in April.



Sugarbush has been changing the spring hours to 10-5 for several years already. It really is quite nice being able to either sleep a little longer or have a more leisurely breakfast.


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## RENO (Feb 24, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Didn't Win Smith say on these boards that it cost him $800,000 for repairs at Sugarbush after Irene ?
> 
> Considering Killington had much more damage than Sugarbush that $500,000 figure seems rather low.



From what I've heard they had insurance covering the damaged areas so I can't imagine the umbrella bar cost much if anything...


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## RENO (Feb 24, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> Sugarbush has been changing the spring hours to 10-5 for several years already. It really is quite nice being able to either sleep a little longer or have a more leisurely breakfast.



and wait until the snow softens up a bit too. Would be nice if K did the same...


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## mister moose (Feb 24, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Once they shrink down to just Superstar, I think "Midweek, we only open on sunny days" would be fine.   If it's pissing liquid, below freezing and overcast with death crunch, or the hill is socked in, nobody shows up anyways.   It's not like it takes a big staff to run one lift.    They can close the base lodge and serve pre-made food at the umbrella bar.



We have yet to see a resort try "Sunny midweek days" whereas we have seen resorts go weekends only in late spring.  The drivers to stay open - namely day ticket sales - just aren't going to be there mid week.

But as we've discussed before, the total revenue is far less, even on a weekend.  It's easy to find justification not to remain open past late April.  You have to want to do it, and so far, POWDR doesn't want to.


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 24, 2012)

Geoff said:


> My point is that it takes 3 people to operate one lift plus somebody to man the Umbrella Bar and sell day tickets from it.   You need one sled dog.   I'm quite confident that Killington has more than 5 full time employees to fill in for these roles.
> 
> And it's daylight savings time.   The lifts should run 10-5 in April.



Don't forget ski patrol, and hopefully one of those folks is a lift mechanic, but I do agree with you that they could run very lean and profitable until the last of the snow melts.

Last Spring on their Facebook page, Killington said they would be switching to a 5pm closing earlier this year than they did last year. I think it would be great if the schedule change was made the day we Spring Ahead the clocks.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Last Spring on their Facebook page, Killington said they would be switching to a 5pm closing earlier this year than they did last year. I think it would be great if the schedule change was made the day we Spring Ahead the clocks.


I don't recall Killington ever switching to a 10-5 schedule...


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## Ski the Moguls (Feb 24, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't recall Killington ever switching to a 10-5 schedule...



http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32147

The thread is classic Kzone, but at least my posts to it were serious. Good reading.


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## ScottySkis (Feb 24, 2012)

I had pass their when asc last year of ownership of K. It's nice to see the places like Steamboat and Mount Snow being run by better company now I believe.


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## skiersleft (Feb 24, 2012)

Hey Nick.....Should've deleted the thread when you had a chance. It was pretty obvious that nothing good would come out of it and that it was going to morph into yet another sorry K = Fail thread.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2012)

skiersleft said:


> Hey Nick.....Should've deleted the thread when you had a chance.* It was pretty obvious that nothing good would come out of it* and that it was going to morph into yet another sorry K = Fail thread.



Dunno about that, I've had a decent time lurking.


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## Highway Star (Feb 27, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> Dunno about that, I've had a decent time lurking.


 
Perhaps Danforth will forward this to Nyberg and some good will come of this?


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## Highway Star (Mar 2, 2012)

BUMP.  

Does anyone think it's acceptable that Bear is closing at the end of this month?  ALL THE SNOW IS OVER THERE.  They quite literally didn't make snow on Double Dipper so they could make a bunch of snow at Bear for the dew tour.  Does it make any sense for them to close bear and keep the k-1 open......NO!


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## ski_resort_observer (Mar 2, 2012)

If you want answers the man said to


> In the future, please send your Killington related questions to info@killington.com so we can get you a quick response.


Please explain why you or anyone with questions appears to be unable to do this. I'm thinking about sending him an email asking him why people in here don't send him an email. 

In addition to lifties, ski patrol, F&B and lift mechanics in case of an emergency, clean-up crew, maybe additional liabilty insurance expense, power to run the lift, ticket seller(tho most would be SP holders). Maybe they can set up a card table and get a woodchuck( the animal) to do it, an IT person in case the ticket system screws up. Someone to answer local and national 800 numbers. Heck, they can probably just have those calls go the cell of the guy/gal serving the beer under the umbrella or the person cleaning the bathrooms and taking care of the trash cans and the refuse from the tailgating. Can people come and rent skis? I guess you would need rental staff. Not all full-time people are salaried, some are hourly. Could be another additional expense. Taken individually each line item ain't all that much but when added all up it's alot more costly than some continue to think.

Didn't ASC bulldoze snow onto Superstar and stay open in May/June. It certainly didn't help their bottom line. Financally it's a loser. If they actually could make money or even just get enough positive PR I think Powdr would do it. By that time most of the market is into spring sports, couldn't care less about skiing in May. 

Lastly, the man said "through the end of April", not, till the end of April which can be two entirely diferent terms, in PR speak. To me, that does leave the door open to extend into May if Powdr so chooses.


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## skiur (Mar 3, 2012)

ski_resort_observer said:


> If you want answers the man said to
> 
> Please explain why you or anyone with questions appears to be unable to do this. I'm thinking about sending him an email asking him why people in here don't send him an email.
> 
> ...




K never lost money running late into may, asc just sent the money elsewhere.  Killington was one of the few resorts that always made a profit for ASC.


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## oakapple (Mar 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I do agree with you that they could run very lean and profitable until the last of the snow melts.


I think it's very funny when people who have never operated a ski area in their life, state with such confidence when and how the mountain could be operated profitably.

The funny thing is that people accuse POWDR of being too bottom-line oriented, while at the same time, walking away from operations that are allegedly profitable. It seems that management is either too focused on profits or ignoring profits, whichever argument seems convenient that day.


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## bobbutts (Mar 3, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I think it's very funny when people who have never operated a ski area in their life, state with such confidence when and how the mountain could be operated profitably.
> 
> The funny thing is that people accuse POWDR of being too bottom-line oriented, while at the same time, walking away from operations that are allegedly profitable. It seems that management is either too focused on profits or ignoring profits, whichever argument seems convenient that day.


Nice smug post.

Yes, some people argue one thing, others argue another.  Sometimes a single person presents contradictory arguments. Is it really that funny to you?


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 3, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> Nice smug post.
> 
> Yes, some people argue one thing, others argue another.  Sometimes a single person presents contradictory arguments. Is it really that funny to you?



Oakapple keeps doing that. He seems to think that all companies make good decisions all the time, and he cannot understand why we do not agree.


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## oakapple (Mar 3, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> Oakapple keeps doing that. He seems to think that all companies make good decisions all the time. . . .



I don't believe that at all; otherwise, there would be no NELSAP list, and American Ski Company wouldn't have gone bankrupt. New Coke would have been a successful soft drink, Apple would still be selling the Lisa, and Ford would still be making the Edsel.


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## mlkrgr (Mar 3, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> I don't recall Killington ever switching to a 10-5 schedule...



I remember them going to 9:30 to 4:30 midweek and 9 to 4:30 weekends after the last weekend of March.


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## Bubbartzky (Mar 4, 2012)

oakapple said:


> I think it's very funny when people who have never operated a ski area in their life, state with such confidence when and how the mountain could be operated profitably.
> 
> The funny thing is that people accuse POWDR of being too bottom-line oriented, while at the same time, walking away from operations that are allegedly profitable. It seems that management is either too focused on profits or ignoring profits, whichever argument seems convenient that day.



I think there's a wealth of experience among many of the long time Killington skiers, many of whom spoke regularly with Killington senior management and who, through those conversations, learned an awful lot about the economics of the business.  And, there are an awful lot of people who know a lot more than Powdr about eastern skiing and marketing (something Jon Cumming doesn't really believe in) especially marketing in the east.  All you have to do is go back to Powdr's first year here and review all the bad decisions they made, ignoring all the people telling them how bad those decisions were, and all the decisions they subsequently reversed.  So, while few people here have had the opportunity (or bad luck) to have run a ski area, there's a lot of people who know how a lot more than you would expect among an average customer base.


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## skiersleft (Mar 4, 2012)

Bubbartzky said:


> I think there's a wealth of experience among many of the long time Killington skiers, many of whom spoke regularly with Killington senior management and who, through those conversations, learned an awful lot about the economics of the business.  And, there are an awful lot of people who know a lot more than Powdr about eastern skiing and marketing (something Jon Cumming doesn't really believe in) especially marketing in the east.  All you have to do is go back to Powdr's first year here and review all the bad decisions they made, ignoring all the people telling them how bad those decisions were, and all the decisions they subsequently reversed.  So, while few people here have had the opportunity (or bad luck) to have run a ski area, there's a lot of people who know how a lot more than you would expect among an average customer base.



Yes. And if you want to talk to them, check out Kzone. They're all there.


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## mlkrgr (Mar 4, 2012)

Bubbartzky said:


> I think there's a wealth of experience among many of the long time Killington skiers, many of whom spoke regularly with Killington senior management and who, through those conversations, learned an awful lot about the economics of the business.  And, there are an awful lot of people who know a lot more than Powdr about eastern skiing and marketing (something Jon Cumming doesn't really believe in) especially marketing in the east.  All you have to do is go back to Powdr's first year here and review all the bad decisions they made, ignoring all the people telling them how bad those decisions were, and all the decisions they subsequently reversed.  So, while few people here have had the opportunity (or bad luck) to have run a ski area, there's a lot of people who know how a lot more than you would expect among an average customer base.



Yes; and I think the quality of a  business manager is not too much correlated with experience. I'm seeing plenty of good quality 20 somethings run good businesses of their own just because they don't like or can't break into the big business environment. As I'm educated in business; but I'll consider myself relatively inexperienced, there's two ways you can operate your business. You can control every $.01 you spend  tightly and possibly cut in areas that people value thus completely turning away people from all areas of your business or you can make good long term decisions even though you may end up taking a loss sometimes.

I think if there's more than a 3 or so ski areas opened when talking about May skiing, it gets to be unprofitable for all, but I would do it on weekends only because there is enough people that will praise the business through word of mouth, social media, etc. So I would run it until I can at least feel confident that the snow will stick around.


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## oakapple (Mar 4, 2012)

Bubbartzky said:


> All you have to do is go back to Powdr's first year here and review all the bad decisions they made, ignoring all the people telling them how bad those decisions were, and all the decisions they subsequently reversed.



This demonstrates that, like most people, they are not immune to reason and common sense; which suggests that if they decline to keep the mountain open past the date it is profitable to do so, _that_ decision is probably sensible, as well.

Of course, I suspect there is some selective memory here. There are enough Killington partisans that practically every decision will be a bad idea in _someone's_ opinion. Everything that doesn't work, _someone_ will be able to claim that they knew it all along.


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## Geoff (Mar 4, 2012)

skiur said:


> K never lost money running late into may, asc just sent the money elsewhere.  Killington was one of the few resorts that always made a profit for ASC.



Other than Sugarbush, all the ski resorts made an operating profit.   The ASC problem was finance, not ski area operations P&L.  When you overpay for ski areas and fund the acquisitions with junk bonds, it doesn't matter how much operating profit you make.   You can't pay the interest on the junk bonds.

The way Killington got to a million skier visits was by creating a sense of value for their customers.   If you're going to pick a mountain to rent/buy real estate and buy season passes every year, a long season and wall-to-wall snowmaking (and a vibrant off-season) make it a lot easier to justify committing to the resort.   Fall skiing is back in a half-assed way with one antique triple chair and an inconvenient walk up a very long stairway at the end of the day.   Killington is likely to slam shut the last weekend of April this year.   Spring skiing is dead.  Killington also violated one of the huge Preston Smith principles by not blowing snow on all the trails.   Why would anyone tie up hundreds of thousands of dollars of capital for a vacation home at a resort that now runs such an austerity budget that they can't even make snow on everything?

Eventually, the Eiger guys in Texas will figure out that their Utah "partner" as totally destroyed the value of their real estate holdings.   I sure hope there is some fine print in the contract that allows SP Land to boot out POWDR.   Condos don't make economic sense when they only rent 30 days per year.   There is zero midweek business so you can't rely on any rental income beyond Christmas, Presidents week, and the high season weekends.   With the resort taking 40% of the rental income, that doesn't even cover taxes, insurance, utilities, and condo fees.   New development is a non-starter until the midweek business is marketed properly and brings the price of the existing housing stock back.   You can't command $500 per square foot when everything else in town is selling for $150 per square foot.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 4, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> BUMP.
> 
> Does anyone think it's acceptable that Bear is closing at the end of this month?  ALL THE SNOW IS OVER THERE.  They quite literally didn't make snow on Double Dipper so they could make a bunch of snow at Bear for the dew tour.  Does it make any sense for them to close bear and keep the k-1 open......NO!



The skiing is going to get very limited real quick if they close Bear April 1 like they announced. Downdraft & Double Dipper are 2 of the main challenging runs off K Peak. To only have Cascade open is going to get old fast. Now if they wanted to make good PR with their customer base they could at least keep the SPQ running for a few more weeks. Judging from Powdrs past performance I doubt that they will losing any good will they garnered by getting open early this season. It really is a shame they didn't blow any snow on those 2 trails this year as both hold snow very well. Instead they focused blowing snow on Highline & Conclusion catering to the local racers & bump competitions. How many days this season were both Highline & Conclusion closed to the public? I didn't even mention Needles Eye often being closed which basically services 2 high speed lifts. This past Tues. they groomed out all the bumps skiers left on Conclusion & it was open & skied magnificently. It was then closed for the rest of the week while they set up for some competition this weekend. Glad I at least got to ski it for one day. Notice I didn't even mention the DEW Tour. By the way something was going on at Bear again this weekend & they closed middle & lower Skyeburst all week again forcing everyone skiing off the Bear Mtn. Quad & Skye Peak Quad to funnel into lower Wildfire just like during the Dew tour. It was a real mess even on Fri.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2012)

Having trails dedicated to race programs isn't unique to Killington.  At Gunstock, Cannonball is closed off for race programs more often than it isn't.  I've also been there on days where Tiger is closed as well.  Is what it is.  At a small area like Gunstock, losing 1 trail impacts trail variety considerably more than closing two trails at a larger area like Killington. Those families pay big money for the race programs for their kids, so I don't really have an issue with it.

I'd imagine the decision to operate K1 instead of SPQ is to consolidate operations to one base area.  By having SPQ run, folks will expect the Bear lodge to be open.  That's additional ticket seller(s), custodial staff, F&B personnel, power to heat and light the lodge etc.  If I were a K regular, I'd absolutely prefer them operating SPQ and SSQ over K1 and SSQ, but from a base area operations standpoint, it makes sense to consolidate spring operations to one base.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 4, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Having trails dedicated to race programs isn't unique to Killington.  At Gunstock, Cannonball is closed off for race programs more often than it isn't.  I've also been there on days where Tiger is closed as well.  Is what it is.  At a small area like Gunstock, losing 1 trail impacts trail variety considerably more than closing two trails at a larger area like Killington. Those families pay big money for the race programs for their kids, so I don't really have an issue with it.
> 
> I'd imagine the decision to operate K1 instead of SPQ is to consolidate operations to one base area.  By having SPQ run, folks will expect the Bear lodge to be open.  That's additional ticket seller(s), custodial staff, F&B personnel, power to heat and light the lodge etc.  If I were a K regular, I'd absolutely prefer them operating SPQ and SSQ over K1 and SSQ, but from a base area operations standpoint, it makes sense to consolidate spring operations to one base.


They can operate the SPQ without having services at the Bear Mtn. Lodge. Same way they did during the week the 1st year Powdr operated K only having the Ramshead & Snowshed lodges with full service. Only having bathrooms open at the Killington base lodge during the week didn't stop them from operating the K-1 gondola now did it?

Closing Highline & Conclusion when conditions are limited like this season has been for the most part certainly does have a considerable effect on the available trails to ski. Closing lower & middle Skyeburst certainly has a major negative effect on skiing the Skye Peak area.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2012)

Even not having services, you still need to power the building and have a custodian on.  It still requires more labor than consolidating everything to the K base lodge.  I'm not saying I agree with the decision from a skiing experience perspective, but I understand it.

IMO, crying over trails closed to race programs is pointless.  KMS students and weekend race program families were sold the experience at the start of the season.  The mountain can't take it away mid-season due to a down snow year and a few customers bitching that they want to ski those trails.


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## Wavewheeler (Mar 4, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> They can operate the SPQ without having services at the Bear Mtn. Lodge. Same way they did during the week the 1st year Powdr operated K only having the Ramshead & Snowshed lodges with full service. Only having bathrooms open at the Killington base lodge during the week didn't stop them from operating the K-1 gondola now did it?



I remember then. When I first came to Killington (I think ASC still owned it) and skied midweek EVERYTHING was open..even the Peak Lodge! It was rather nice to be able to grab lunch and a view up there but I was surprised at how much was open given the (few) number of people there. 

After that Powdr must've taken over because it was drastically different midweek. Peak Lodge was never open again and there were only bathrooms at Bear with Ramshead and Snowshed being the only places you could get lunch. That's when I really started liking and appreciating those waffle places! I LOVE the Empanada place down at the end of High Road at the Skyeship.  

I don't recall there being a problem with access to ski areas but I wasn't skiing any of the more difficult stuff then because my daughter was younger. We stuck mostly to greens and blues. 



> Closing Highline & Conclusion when conditions are limited like this season has been for the most part certainly does have a considerable effect on the available trails to ski. Closing lower & middle Skyeburst certainly has a major negative effect on skiing the Skye Peak area.



When I was there early February midweek for two days there wasn't any natural snow. Most of the double blacks off K1 were indeed closed.  Highline and Conclusion were closed for racing and it was frustrating to see that all that wonderfully groomed packed powder on Highline time after time and not be able to go down it. By the time the racers packed up it has been pretty much skied off and icy but I took a run down anyway. 

I would've liked to have access to those trails because if you ski Snowdon then you are down to one short black(Mousetrap). I'd loved to have Highline and Conclusion open, especially after enduring the long, cold ride on the sloooww Snowdon Quad (I can't wait for it to be replaced). We like running the blues there too so we put up with it but I'd love the option of having those blacks open to me. 

Fortunately, considering there was NO natural snow, I enjoyed myself on Eastfall/Spillway and Cascade and Superstar off the K1 Gondola and Superstar was open as well. But stuff like Double Dipper, Ovation, Vertigo..all closed without any snow at all on them. 

Out of the two days I was there one day Panic Button/Needles Eye trail was closed in the morning and the lift was closed all day. But on the second day the other day the quad and trail were open because the Skyeship gondola was closed. Bear Mountain Quad was closed the entire time. 

I would've been PO'ed if they hadn't had Skyeburst completely open. That hasn't happened to me yet and we really enjoy that run down to Bear. Losing trails especially on an "off year" like this one to racing/competitions is a real downer but I understand the reasoning behind it. Doesn't mean I like it though.  

As a midweek skier I'm used to not having everything available. It  just isn't profitable for the mountain to have everything open as they would on weekends and holidays when the crowds come in. We deal with closed restaurants too. One restaurant we like was only open one of the three nights we were in town. It's the price you pay for lower prices, smaller crowds and lift lines. It's a trade off I gladly make, especially since the hotel we stay at gives us a night free for a midweek stay.


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## mister moose (Mar 4, 2012)

oakapple said:


> This demonstrates that, like most people, they are not immune to reason and common sense; which suggests that if they decline to keep the mountain open past the date it is profitable to do so, _that_ decision is probably sensible, as well.



This demonstrates your lack of understanding of the current dynamics in play at Killington, and a serious flaw in logic.

"If they correct some mistakes, then all decisions are sensible."

I would not buy stock on that advice.  Would you?


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## WWF-VT (Mar 4, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Condos don't make economic sense when they only rent 30 days per year.   There is zero midweek business so you can't rely on any rental income beyond Christmas, Presidents week, and the high season weekends.   With the resort taking 40% of the rental income, that doesn't even cover taxes, insurance, utilities, and condo fees.   New development is a non-starter until the midweek business is marketed properly and brings the price of the existing housing stock back.   You can't command $500 per square foot when everything else in town is selling for $150 per square foot.



This sounds like the analysis of a real estate investor rather than a second home/condo owner in a resort area.  If someone has the income to spend $500 per square foot for a condo then maybe they are looking to spend Christmas, Presidents week and high season weekends using their condo rather than relying on rental income to fund their real estate ownership and the cost of a Killington black out pass.


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## skiur (Mar 5, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Other than Sugarbush, all the ski resorts made an operating profit.   The ASC problem was finance, not ski area operations P&L.  When you overpay for ski areas and fund the acquisitions with junk bonds, it doesn't matter how much operating profit you make.   You can't pay the interest on the junk bonds.
> 
> The way Killington got to a million skier visits was by creating a sense of value for their customers.   If you're going to pick a mountain to rent/buy real estate and buy season passes every year, a long season and wall-to-wall snowmaking (and a vibrant off-season) make it a lot easier to justify committing to the resort.   Fall skiing is back in a half-assed way with one antique triple chair and an inconvenient walk up a very long stairway at the end of the day.   Killington is likely to slam shut the last weekend of April this year.   Spring skiing is dead.  Killington also violated one of the huge Preston Smith principles by not blowing snow on all the trails.   Why would anyone tie up hundreds of thousands of dollars of capital for a vacation home at a resort that now runs such an austerity budget that they can't even make snow on everything?
> 
> Eventually, the Eiger guys in Texas will figure out that their Utah "partner" as totally destroyed the value of their real estate holdings.   I sure hope there is some fine print in the contract that allows SP Land to boot out POWDR.   Condos don't make economic sense when they only rent 30 days per year.   There is zero midweek business so you can't rely on any rental income beyond Christmas, Presidents week, and the high season weekends.   With the resort taking 40% of the rental income, that doesn't even cover taxes, insurance, utilities, and condo fees.   New development is a non-starter until the midweek business is marketed properly and brings the price of the existing housing stock back.   You can't command $500 per square foot when everything else in town is selling for $150 per square foot.




sending money to pay off debt is still sending it elsewhere.


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## Rogman (Mar 5, 2012)

While SP Land and Killington are partners in the village, their interests aren't really aligned. SP Land wants to maximize ROI in the land, Killington wants to maximize ROI in the resort. The price point SP Land is targeting (500/ft) cuts the Killington bread and butter skier out of the market, more importantly, expensive homes are more likely to sit idle when the owners are away than cheaper homes. On the Killington side, the decisions made my Killington to maximize their ROI (closing lifts and lodges, shortened season), have had a dramatic downward impact on real-estate values. Bottom line: Killington has been profitable under POWDR, but at what cost?


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## Highway Star (Mar 5, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Even not having services, you still need to power the building and have a custodian on. It still requires more labor than consolidating everything to the K base lodge. I'm not saying I agree with the decision from a skiing experience perspective, but I understand it.


 
It's absolutely silly for them to not have bear open in the spring when they blew $100k's of snowmaking there while puroposely neglecting snowmaking in the canyon.  All they need is a basic BBQ at the bear deck with a beer bar.


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## UVSHTSTRM (Mar 5, 2012)

What blows my mind is how Killington still blows a ton of snow, more then is needed to get to mid/late April (most years) on Superstar.  Each year, especially this year with with the outdoor bar area, I hold my breath this will be the year they go to mid may....boy what a sucker I am.


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## Geoff (Mar 5, 2012)

WWF-VT said:


> This sounds like the analysis of a real estate investor rather than a second home/condo owner in a resort area.  If someone has the income to spend $500 per square foot for a condo then maybe they are looking to spend Christmas, Presidents week and high season weekends using their condo rather than relying on rental income to fund their real estate ownership and the cost of a Killington black out pass.



Killington is not a market where there are potential customers lining up to pay a million dollars for a 2,000 square foot vacation home in the middle of the Snowshed parking lot.   If you want a vibrant slopeside lodging arrangement that adds value to the resort, most of it has to be in the rental pool.   That simply isn't possible at $500 per square foot once you factor in Act 68 property taxes and condo fees.   Your million dollar condo needs to generate $50K just to cover taxes, condo fees, insurance, and utilities.   Unless you  happen to have a million bucks lying around, you need another $50K to cover the mortgage interest.   You can command that at a major western destination resort because they have near-100% occupancy in peak season.  It sits there paying for its self any time you're not there using it.   At Killington, it would sit empty midweek most of the time.


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## mister moose (Mar 5, 2012)

Geoff said:


> Killington is not a market where there are potential customers lining up to pay a million dollars for a 2,000 square foot vacation home in the middle of the Snowshed parking lot.   If you want a vibrant slopeside lodging arrangement that adds value to the resort, most of it has to be in the rental pool.   That simply isn't possible at $500 per square foot once you factor in Act 68 property taxes and condo fees.   Your million dollar condo needs to generate $50K just to cover taxes, condo fees, insurance, and utilities.   Unless you  happen to have a million bucks lying around, you need another $50K to cover the mortgage interest.   You can command that at a major western destination resort because they have near-100% occupancy in peak season.  It sits there paying for its self any time you're not there using it.   At Killington, it would sit empty midweek most of the time.



Agree.  News Flash.  (most) Wealthy people aren't stupid.  Most got that way from hard work and shrewd money management.  While it is true that some people, especially the folks with huge money, won't care if their condo sits empty, many will care.  Many will be happy to sign a 7 figure loan agreement IF they can deduct the expenses because the rental income is sufficient for qualifying out from under the hobby loss rules.  That means Geoff's analysis holds water in my view for a portion of the buyers.

I suspect most of the people wealthy enough not to care if their 7 figure condo in Killington is empty would rather not care if their 7 figure Vail condo is empty.  They might not even _be_ the market.  Note that Claybrook at Sugarbush is selling mostly quarter shares, although some 100% units are on the market for $500+ a sq ft.

Just like skier demographics are wide and varied at Killington, the housing demographic needs to be equally varied.  I'm sure we'll see a mix of price points in the final design.... whenever that might be.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> It's absolutely silly for them to not have bear open in the spring when they blew $100k's of snowmaking there while puroposely neglecting snowmaking in the canyon.  All they need is a basic BBQ at the bear deck with a beer bar.



How many fewer skier visits do you anticipate the mountain doing during weekends in April by closing Bear instead of closing the K1?


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 5, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> How many fewer skier visits do you anticipate the mountain doing during weekends in April by closing Bear instead of closing the K1?



How many fewer next year season pass sales will there be? How much less F&B sales? Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure. Keep as much open as the snow allows and the skiers will come. Yes, a few other mountains are open into May, but none are closer to the NYC market than Killington.


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## dennis (Mar 5, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> It's absolutely silly for them to not have bear open in the spring when they blew $100k's of snowmaking there while puroposely neglecting snowmaking in the canyon.  All they need is a basic BBQ at the bear deck with a beer bar.



Based on past posts, why would they with pass holders like you, you would be in the parking lot with a cooler bitching about the weather that they should be able to control, no?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> How many fewer next year season pass sales will there be? How much less F&B sales? Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure. Keep as much open as the snow allows and the skiers will come. Yes, a few other mountains are open into May, but none are closer to the NYC market than Killington.



You're not answering my question.  How many more skiers will show up at Killington with Bear open instead of the K1?  If there are more skiers, then one would assume there would be more F&B sales.  If the skier visits are the same, then one would assume the F&B sales would be the same only consolidated to one service point with less labor needed.

Regarding season pass sales for next season; are you not going to renew at Killington based upon this decision to close Bear April 1st?  

As I stated before, I personally would much prefer that they operate Bear over K1.  I know for me, it's likely I ski other mountains during April until the end of the month when it's Superstar only as that will likely be the best skiing product left available.  Killington will still get my business though.  It will just be later in the month.


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## Highway Star (Mar 5, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> How many fewer skier visits do you anticipate the mountain doing during weekends in April by closing Bear instead of closing the K1?



IMHO they should be running Superstar, K-1, and Skye Peak Express though the 3rd weekend in April.  The mountain skis much better with Bear available. 

But this year, it makes more sense to keep the SPE open and close the K-1, since dipper and downdraft aren't open.

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early.  What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open?   People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.

It's embarrassing to call themselves the king of spring.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 5, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> You're not answering my question.  How many more skiers will show up at Killington with Bear open instead of the K1?  If there are more skiers, then one would assume there would be more F&B sales.  If the skier visits are the same, then one would assume the F&B sales would be the same only consolidated to one service point with less labor needed.
> 
> Regarding season pass sales for next season; are you not going to renew at Killington based upon this decision to close Bear April 1st?
> 
> As I stated before, I personally would much prefer that they operate Bear over K1.  I know for me, it's likely I ski other mountains during April until the end of the month when it's Superstar only as that will likely be the best skiing product left available.  Killington will still get my business though.  It will just be later in the month.



I thought my answer was clear but I can explain it for you. When I wrote, _"Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure."_ That meant, who the heck knows? You ask an impossible question. People often do that when they are trying to appear more intelligent. No one can answer that because it is impossible to set up both scenarios (i.e. with and without Bear in the same year) and measure the difference.

Personally, I have not yet decided if my family will renew our season passes at Killington next year. And yes, how they handle the end of this lousy ski season will have a large impact on that decision.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2012)

I'd hope the mountain manager knows.  His job is to sell the most tickets he can everyday with the least amount of overhead everyday they are open.  Does SPE and SSQ sell more tickets than SSQ and K1 plus offer the mountain the benefit of operating with less services/labor? Based upon their communicated operation plan, they think they have it right.

I agree with you that it's impossible to compare apples to apples.  Would be nice for them to say screw it, lets try something different and operate Bear where there's tons of snow and Skye and close down the Peak instead.


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## oakapple (Mar 6, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> I thought my answer was clear but I can explain it for you. When I wrote, _"Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure."_ That meant, who the heck knows? You ask an impossible question.


Well, if no one knows, then their tactical decision to consolidate operations into the K-1 is not conclusively incorrect. Indeed, it is probably right (as annoying as that might be), as they have far better data than we on both costs and skier visits.


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## threecy (Mar 6, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early.



Would you care to quantify this?


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## Highway Star (Mar 6, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd hope the mountain manager knows. His job is to sell the most tickets he can everyday with the least amount of overhead everyday they are open.


 
That's certainly not the strategy to have if you're looking to be a top regional (national?) ski resort.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 6, 2012)

oakapple said:


> Well, if no one knows, then their tactical decision to consolidate operations into the K-1 is not conclusively incorrect. Indeed, it is probably right (as annoying as that might be), as they have far better data than we on both costs and skier visits.



You are doing it again. You are assuming that all companies make good decisions all the time.

Look, the logic is this. Let's say you are making a decent profit selling a pint size container of premium ice cream. But you want to make more money, so you lower the amount of ice cream in the container to be only 14 ounces but still sell it for the same amount of money. Initially, people will not notice, or be stuck in their habit of buying your brand, and your profit will go up. Not because you sold more, but because your costs went down. Eventually however, the consumer will figure out that they are not getting as much as they used to when they buy your product and they will start to look elsewhere. This process does not happen immediately. In the case of a ski season pass holder the purchases are a full year apart and the process can take multiple cycles. But eventually some of your customers will decide they can find a better value elsewhere and move on. 

By closing Bear early, Killington is trying to save money by lowering costs, and hoping the consumer will still be satisfied with less product. Of course, I cannot tell you exactly how many consumers will shop elsewhere, or even when they will give up and move on, but I am convinced that it is happening. In the search for a larger, short term profit, Killington is losing customers long term.

And please do not keep saying that it is their business and they know more than we do and so on. Many manager's are measured, and often paid, based on short term performance figures. They may be purposely sacrificing the long term numbers in order to look better in the short run. It may help their pay check, but it hurts consumers, and it hurts Killington in the long run.


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## oakapple (Mar 6, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> You are doing it again. You are assuming that all companies make good decisions all the time.


No, that is what I am arguing at all. What I am arguing is that the right answer depends on data we do not have, but which they DO have.

It is entirely _possible_ that, despite being in possession of better data, they are nevertheless making the wrong decision. I totally get that. But most of the time, people with better data, who are professionals in the very business under discussion, will make the better decision. You will note that I am saying _most_, not _all._

What I long for is actual data, from someone in position to know. What we tend to get here, are conclusory statements from fans, backed mostly by hypotheticals and guesswork, and not even acknowledging the _possibility_ that any other answer might be correct.

It is that kind of lazy argument that I rail against. I am perfectly willing to believe that they could be mistaken; it's just, that I would rather see data, not hopes and guesses.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

*Killington - Facebook outrage over BMMC in full swing!*

Enjoy!

http://www.facebook.com/killingtonresort



Oh yeah....

*KILLINGTON = EPIC FAIL!!!*


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

> *Killington Resort*
> 
> 
> *Calling all mogul skiers, registration for the Freestyle Frenzy opens tonight at 8 p.m.*
> ...


 
huh


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Good for Bubba, someone has to take them to task on it.

For 20 years i wanted to enter but never had the balls.  Even though it was basically out of my league, I'm so glad i did get a chance to run it the last two years.

One thing I dont understand though is why they are saying it became tame and such. It became tame as someone said, because they killed the party.  Or in effect, became tame for the people NOT competing.  Seemed to me, the last two years the people actually skiing in it had fun.  Why would anyone go to watch mostly amateur bump skiers for an entire weekend anyway?  What's wrong with holding it for the people who want to ski in it?  

S7 is now the premier spring bump contest in the east.  Laugh all you want but it blows this mess away.  Beer truck, real prizes, growing attendance.  Simply more fun.

Oh, and an owner who hangs out all day drinking beers with the crowd and competitors.  Someone you can talk to and make suggestions to and is genuinely happy to do this.


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## kickstand (Mar 7, 2012)

The correspondence with the VT DLC is priceless.  Good for whoever wrote to them for exposing what Killington was trying to do (not that it wasn't transparent already.... )


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> How many fewer next year season pass sales will there be? How much less F&B sales? Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure. Keep as much open as the snow allows and the skiers will come. Yes, a few other mountains are open into May, but none are closer to the NYC market than Killington.





Ski the Moguls said:


> I thought my answer was clear but I can explain it for you. When I wrote, _"Lots of things go into the mix, some are hard to measure."_ That meant, who the heck knows? You ask an impossible question. People often do that when they are trying to appear more intelligent. No one can answer that because it is impossible to set up both scenarios (i.e. with and without Bear in the same year) and measure the difference.
> 
> Personally, I have not yet decided if my family will renew our season passes at Killington next year. And yes, how they handle the end of this lousy ski season will have a large impact on that decision.



You didnt answer any question.  It was simple.  You said k will lose money because they are closing bear "early".  early meaning basically the same time as at least the last 4 or 5 years.  I have no idea where you are coming up with this statement.  Nothing is changing, especially not this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam the last 5 years.  I realize you need to "keep it simple on alpinezone" as you stated elsewhere but it seems to me your argument is based on emotion, personal ideaology and flat out guessing.  You should be asking what the upside to keeping bear open would be, not the downside since they've been following this model for a few years now.  Are you surprised bear is closing april 1 this year?  It's how they have been running this since they got there.

My guess is you will renew as will HS and many others and next year we will be seeing these same threads all over again.  That's keeping it simple.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> You didnt answer any question. It was simple. You said k will lose money because they are closing bear "early". early meaning basically the same time as at least the last 4 or 5 years. I have no idea where you are coming up with this statement. Nothing is changing, especially not this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam the last 5 years. I realize you need to "keep it simple on alpinezone" as you stated elsewhere but it seems to me your argument is based on emotion, personal ideaology and flat out guessing. You should be asking what the upside to keeping bear open would be, not the downside since they've been following this model for a few years now. Are you surprised bear is closing april 1 this year? It's how they have been running this since they got there.
> 
> My guess is you will renew as will HS and many others and next year we will be seeing these same threads all over again. That's keeping it simple.


 
Here is your answer, keeping it simple:

Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.


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## dangah (Mar 7, 2012)

We understand that there a lot of folks who are passionate about the BMMC and realize that people will continue to question our motives for ending the event. All we can do is try to clearly explain the situation we were faced with and the decision we made.

Here is our explanation:

"The Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge has come to an end. It was an awesome event and we had some epic times. However, the last few years of the BMMC became tame due to the "no BYOB" policy. Unfortunately, guests bringing their own alcohol onto property we own and lease led to a substantial number of VT liquor law violations (mainly the sharing or selling of alcohol by the public). Enforcement by the VT Department of Liquor Control increased significantly and ultimately "BYOB" created a liability too great for the resort to take on. With the lack of attendance and enthusiasm for the tamer version of the BMMC, the resort decided to develop the Nor'Beaster. This new event will have various venues and activities, (including the Freestyle Frenzy) spread out over a 10-day period that will be a great spring tonic for The Beast and its guests."

As stated in our post and reinforced by the Vermont Department of Liquor Control's quotes in 2008, the decision on BYOB was made due to the increased liability to the resort. This may be the reason why no competing resorts in Vermont promote a large-scale BYOB event.


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Here is your answer, keeping it simple:
> 
> Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.



They've been doing this since they took over. How is this year any different then the last 4? You make it sound as though it's unique to killington to do this.  Go to any ski area in april.  It's a ghost town with a skeleton crew and minimal lifts.  If people are bailing, where are they going?  I say that they simply arent skiing in spring like they used to.  Do you think if they kept bear open longer they would see a dramatic spike in business?  You are usually good with facts so tell me a) how many people have they lost since they started closing bear early.  b) where are these people going  c) what area doesnt massively reduce its trail count in spring.

I dont think too many casual skiers are trekking from boston and NYC up to Jay just because they keep the entire mountain open as long as possible.  Sugarbush closes HALF its terrain march 31.  Mt. Ellen shuts down entirely.


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## threecy (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early.



Can you quantify this?


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## skiingsnow (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Here is your answer, keeping it simple:
> 
> Every year they lose significant visits by closing down Bear early. What do you think the *skiing public thinks on the 2nd weekend in April when Killington is down to 40 trails* and many other resorts are still nearly 100% open? People stop coming because of the massively reduced trail count, not the other way around.



Trail count reduced, but generally not down to 40 by the 2nd weekend of April. Here are the past seasons under powdr:


2010/2011 season, the 2nd full weekend of April:
April 9: 93 trails open.
April 10: 94 trails open.

2009/2010 season (bad everywhere, Okemo shutdown before 2nd weekend of April, others limited as well):
April 10: 13 trails open.
April 11: 16 trails open.

2008/2009: 
April 11: 65 trails open.
April 12: 65 trails open.

2007/2008: 
April 12: 55 trails open. (was 80 trails April 11, but many trails lost due to heavy rain, not Bear closing)
April 13: 55 trails open.


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

skiingsnow said:


> Trail count reduced, but generally not down to 40 by the 2nd weekend of April. Here are the past seasons under powdr:
> 
> 
> 2010/2011 season, the 2nd full weekend of April:
> ...



In this case, i would go with HS numbers. 40 trails means real trails, not uppers, mids, lowers and little connectors which are part of the official trail count.


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

I don't know all the history behind this but it sounds like the real people to blame are politicians in VT and state policy that makes it basically a liability for the resort that can't be handled.

I think back to that photo at Mad River Glen where that old guy is skiing naked and the first thing that comes to my mind today is, how fast would that guy get arrested, not look at the quirky dude actually skiing buck naked.

For the times they are a'changin


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> They've been doing this since they took over. How is this year any different then the last 4? You make it sound as though it's unique to killington to do this.  Go to any ski area in april.  It's a ghost town with a skeleton crew and minimal lifts.  If people are bailing, where are they going?  I say that they simply arent skiing in spring like they used to.  Do you think if they kept bear open longer they would see a dramatic spike in business?  You are usually good with facts so tell me a) how many people have they lost since they started closing bear early.  b) where are these people going  c) what area doesnt massively reduce its trail count in spring.
> 
> I dont think too many casual skiers are trekking from boston and NYC up to Jay just because they keep the entire mountain open as long as possible.  Sugarbush closes HALF its terrain march 31.  Mt. Ellen shuts down entirely.



Skied Shawnee Peak in Maine yesterday.  They're down to operating the East / Sunnyside Triple on Weekends only.  You can still ski the top 1/3 of the trails on that side, but it's a bit of a pain to get back to the main face.  So, essentially a 1/3rd of their terrain (and my preferred terrain at that)is closed down mid-week. This despite great coverage on those trails and it being pretty busy with a Special Olympics event and several college race teams training for Nationals at Sunday River later in the week.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> They've been doing this since they took over. How is this year any different then the last 4? You make it sound as though it's unique to killington to do this. Go to any ski area in april. It's a ghost town with a skeleton crew and minimal lifts. If people are bailing, where are they going? I say that they simply arent skiing in spring like they used to. Do you think if they kept bear open longer they would see a dramatic spike in business? You are usually good with facts so tell me a) how many people have they lost since they started closing bear early. b) where are these people going c) what area doesnt massively reduce its trail count in spring.
> 
> I dont think too many casual skiers are trekking from boston and NYC up to Jay just because they keep the entire mountain open as long as possible. Sugarbush closes HALF its terrain march 31. Mt. Ellen shuts down entirely.


 
Actually, they've been doing it since the mid-'00's, in last few years of ASC. 

SO POWDR REALLY DOESN'T HAVE ANY IDEA IF IT WOULD BE PROFITABLE.

It is FACT that after the last weekend of Bear, Killington goes to about 40% open, while several other mountains in the region stay at 80-100%. 

Why would people come to Killington if they are barely open in April??? Oh, that's right, they DON'T. People go to other resorts!

I firmly believe that if Killington kept Bear open until mid-late april, even on the weekends only, they would see greatly increased skier visits, revenue and profits, due to competing more strongly with other resorts. If you don't believe this, you're a fool (or Killington management).


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Actually, they've been doing it since the mid-'00's, in last few years of ASC.
> 
> SO POWDR REALLY DOESN'T HAVE ANY IDEA IF IT WOULD BE PROFITABLE.
> 
> ...



Several in the region stay at 80 to 100%.  Who?  Bromley, okemo, stratton, magic, sugarbush, snow.  cant think of any other area that could be considered "in their region".  Bromley doesnt have the terrain to begin with and closes early april.. same for stratton.  snow, may stay open longer but again, it aint competing with killington in terms of terrain.  Magic, right, april is a total crapshoot there.  Sugarbush closes mt ellen entirely.  Okemo. they also close down mid april and i wont even go there in terms of what your skiing.

I may be a fool bro, but i dont see any facts to back up your argument.  If you putting stowe in the region, that's a stretch but i'll give it to you.  Everyone who skied at k in the mid 00's now goes to stowe in the spring?  I think you may be a bit foolish to believe that.


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## skiingsnow (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> In this case, i would go with HS numbers. 40 trails means real trails, not uppers, mids, lowers and little connectors which are part of the official trail count.



Every mountain he would be comparing Killington to has a trail count that is done the same way that Killington's is, includes small connector trails and upper/middle/lower. 

BTW, Killington does not count every trail that is listed as Upper/Middle/Lower as a seperate trail. Example, todays conditions report says 130 trails are open, 145 trails are listed as open on the trail report. Killington claims a total trail count of 141 trails, trail report lists 155 trails. Killington is the only major ski area I have ever seen that has a large gap in their official 100% open trail count and the actual number of trails listed in the trail report.


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

skiingsnow said:


> Every mountain he would be comparing Killington to has a trail count that is done the same way that Killington's is, includes small conector trails and upper/middle/lower.
> 
> BTW, Killington does not count every trail that is listed as Upper/Middle/Lower as a seperate trail. Example, todays conditions report says 130 trails are open, 145 trails are listed as open on the trail report. Killington claims a total trail count 141 trails, trail report lists 155 trails. Killington is the only major ski area I have ever seen that has a large gap in their official 100% open trail count and the actual number of trails listed in the trail report.



Actually, I couldn't care less about trail counts.  Especially in spring.  Give me one good bump run and i will ski it till my legs give out.  I shouldnt have even commented.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> Several in the region stay at 80 to 100%. Who? Bromley, okemo, stratton, magic, sugarbush, snow. cant think of any other area that could be considered "in their region". Bromley doesnt have the terrain to begin with and closes early april.. same for stratton. snow, may stay open longer but again, it aint competing with killington in terms of terrain. Magic, right, april is a total crapshoot there. Sugarbush closes mt ellen entirely. Okemo. they also close down mid april and i wont even go there in terms of what your skiing.
> 
> I may be a fool bro, but i dont see any facts to back up your argument. If you putting stowe in the region, that's a stretch but i'll give it to you. Everyone who skied at k in the mid 00's now goes to stowe in the spring? I think you may be a bit foolish to believe that.


 
I've actually skied both Stratton and Bromley in April in the last few years and both were nearly 100% open in that all sections of the mountain were accessable from the open lifts.  Imagine that.  At Sugarbush, Mount Ellen is only about 1/3rd of the terrain, but is an entirely different area - like Pico (which is still BS).  

Point being, for 2nd-4th weekend in April, there are plenty of other compelling options for skiing aside from Killington (with bear closed).  POWDR is doing nothing to draw skiers to buy tickets from other areas.  Which is why they FAIL.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

skiingsnow said:


> BTW, Killington does not count every trail that is listed as Upper/Middle/Lower as a seperate trail. Example, todays conditions report says 130 trails are open, 145 trails are listed as open on the trail report. Killington claims a total trail count of 141 trails, trail report lists 155 trails. Killington is the only major ski area I have ever seen that has a large gap in their official 100% open trail count and the actual number of trails listed in the trail report.


 
:roll:

Thanks for pointing out just how incompetent they are.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> If you putting stowe in the region, that's a stretch but i'll give it to you.  Everyone who skied at k in the mid 00's now goes to stowe in the spring?  I think you may be a bit foolish to believe that.



Stowe would be a bad example actually.  They close pretty much the 3rd week of April every year with just the Fore Runner Quad running.  The Gondola and Spruce shut down 2-3 weeks prior to that no matter the coverage.  

Winter of 2000-2001 "The Big One", Stowe closed the third week of April with 100% of the Mansfield side trails and trees skiable all the way to the base.  People were hiking and skiing top to bottom almost until Memorial Day.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

Nick said:


> I don't know all the history behind this but it sounds like the real people to blame are politicians in VT and state policy that makes it basically a liability for the resort that can't be handled.
> 
> I think back to that photo at Mad River Glen where that old guy is skiing naked and the first thing that comes to my mind today is, how fast would that guy get arrested, not look at the quirky dude actually skiing buck naked.
> 
> For the times they are a'changin


 
Sorry Nick but........

_*SERIOUSLY????*_


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> Stowe would be a bad example actually.  They close pretty much the 3rd week of April every year with just the Fore Runner Quad running.  The Gondola and Spruce shut down 2-3 weeks prior to that no matter the coverage.
> 
> Winter of 2000-2001 "The Big One", Stowe closed the third week of April with 100% of the Mansfield side trails and trees skiable all the way to the base.  People were hiking and skiing top to bottom almost until Memorial Day.



I know they close at a pre determined date basically every year.  While i'm not a stowe skier, just by looking at the map its readily apparent they can access a large swath of good terrain just by running the quad.  And, i'm trying hard to give HS some ammo but it just doesnt seem to work.  Now, we are comparing bromley and stratton to killington.  100% of bromley isnt 1/2 of killington even after they close bear.  and it closes entirely around easter every year.  Stratton, same thing, maybe one more week.  

I would love killington to keep bear open but the bigger problem as i see it would be the fact that they would groom it every night anyway so what's the point????  :lol:


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Sorry Nick but........
> 
> _*SERIOUSLY????*_



At least my seriously wasn't in red size 7 :lol:


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## St. Bear (Mar 7, 2012)

As a dispassionate observer, it seems like it's less about the stricter liquor enforcement and more about how Killington has handled things.  Everyone with half a brain realizes that things aren't like they used to be.

I don't think you'd see the outrage if Killington came out and said, "Hey guys, we see a huge liability here with the drinking on our property.  We're still going to hold the competition because that's who we are, but we can't have you drinking in public."  Instead they seem to be pointing fingers and blaming others for the change.


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I've actually skied both Stratton and Bromley in April in the last few years and both were nearly 100% open in that all sections of the mountain were accessable from the open lifts.  Imagine that.



How bad were the lines with all the people who bailed on k to ski the 100% open stratton and bromley?

I've gone to bromley in april many times.  It's been me, 3 locals and the bartender.


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

I kind of read the statement as the latter half. On a side note, I'm merging this with the other thread while it turns into complaints about everything.


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Nick said:


> I kind of read the statement as the latter half. On a side note, I'm merging this with the other thread while it turns into complaints about everything.



I cant remember the last time i complained about a thing like this but HS other thread, to me, should be left alone.  Two entirely different issues here.  Killing the bmmc  is a sad thing considering how iconic it was to eastern mogul skiiing.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> How bad were the lines with all the people who bailed on k to ski the 100% open stratton and bromley?
> 
> I've gone to bromley in april many times. It's been me, 3 locals and the bartender.


 
It was mobbed!!!!!   :flame:


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> It was mobbed!!!!!   :flame:



:lol:

You win.


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## oakapple (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> SO POWDR REALLY DOESN'T HAVE ANY IDEA IF IT WOULD BE PROFITABLE.


And neither do you.

But at the very least, they must have SOME data that we do not have, _e.g._, the marginal cost of keeping Bear open. Contrary to what some have frequently suggested, I am not saying that their decision is necessarily correct, only that it is not necessarily _incorrect_, and it is probably based on information (however flawed or incomplete) that is not available to us.



> It is FACT that after the last weekend of Bear, Killington goes to about 40% open, while several other mountains in the region stay at 80-100%.


40 percent of Killington is nevertheless bigger than 80 percent at many other places.


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> I cant remember the last time i complained about a thing like this but HS other thread, to me, should be left alone.  Two entirely different issues here.  Killing the bmmc  is a sad thing considering how iconic it was to eastern mogul skiiing.



All the thread title was had to do with "BMMC Outrage" and then a link to a facebook page. 

It wasn't even clear until 2 posts in that it had been cancelled. 

Anyways, I thought the threads would merge in topics and cross over pretty dramatically in conversation so that was why I merged them.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

Nick said:


> All the thread title was had to do with "BMMC Outrage" and then a link to a facebook page.
> 
> It wasn't even clear until 2 posts in that it had been cancelled.
> 
> Anyways, I thought the threads would merge in topics and cross over pretty dramatically in conversation so that was why I merged them.


 
Nick, your thoughtful moderation "keeps the bar hgh".


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## Nick (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> Nick, your thoughtful moderation "keeps the bar hgh".



:razz:


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> You didnt answer any question.  It was simple.  You said k will lose money because they are closing bear "early".  early meaning basically the same time as at least the last 4 or 5 years.  I have no idea where you are coming up with this statement.  Nothing is changing, especially not this topic which has been discussed ad nauseam the last 5 years.  I realize you need to "keep it simple on alpinezone" as you stated elsewhere but it seems to me your argument is based on emotion, personal ideaology and flat out guessing.  You should be asking what the upside to keeping bear open would be, not the downside since they've been following this model for a few years now.  Are you surprised bear is closing april 1 this year?  It's how they have been running this since they got there.
> 
> My guess is you will renew as will HS and many others and next year we will be seeing these same threads all over again.  That's keeping it simple.



The reason why I make so many more posts over on KillingtonZone rather than here on AlpineZone is twofold. First, I bought season passes for the family at Killington this year and there is a lot more Killington specific information over there. Second, I find that the level of personal attacks is far greater here on AlpineZone. It seems that I cannot give my opinion about something without getting replies questioning my experience, or skiing ability, or what not. I was talking about the Bear area at Killington, not a post I made on another forum, and not about where I will choose to buy season passes next year.

It is very complimentary when 2knees and HighwayStar choose to share my posts between the 2 forums. At least someone is reading them! If you want to know the "elsewhere" that 2knees is referring to you can follow this link:
http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34430&start=0
There you will also find a couple of my follow up posts when some of those members questioned my words (and not my experience, nor my spending habits).

And please note, 2knees, that I have not asked you anything about your personal skiing habits, nor have I asked Oakapple. They simply are not relevant to this discussion.


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## threecy (Mar 7, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> I firmly believe that if Killington kept Bear open until mid-late april, even on the weekends only, they would see greatly increased skier visits, revenue and profits, due to competing more strongly with other resorts.



Can you quanitfy this?


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 7, 2012)

threecy said:


> Can you quanitfy this?



May I, HS?

Threecy, can you quantify that _his_ statement is _wrong_? Of course not. There are far too many variables - weather, economy, timing of school and public holidays, etc. - to be able to quantify this one way or the other. But let me ask these two questions:

What was the most successful ski area, by far, in terms of skier visits, that has ever existed here in the East?
-and-
What was their operating model?


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## Geoff (Mar 7, 2012)

dangah said:


> We understand that there a lot of folks who are passionate about the BMMC and realize that people will continue to question our motives for ending the event. All we can do is try to clearly explain the situation we were faced with and the decision we made.
> 
> Here is our explanation:
> 
> ...



...but you can hold a moe. event in the exact same spot where the fine young barbarians all had an open container in their hand and were puffing away on marijuana.    Puh-leeze.

The original purpose of the Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge was to promote and market spring skiing at Killington.   Every weekend a party.   Put off your yard work and launching the boat until after Memorial Day because it's way more fun to be out skiing mush bumps in the sunshine.   Since the bean counters and Excel Spreadsheet mountain operations types have no interest in the April/May business at the resort, there is no point in hosting the event.


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## threecy (Mar 7, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> May I, HS?
> 
> Threecy, can you quantify that _his_ statement is _wrong_? Of course not. There are far too many variables - weather, economy, timing of school and public holidays, etc. - to be able to quantify this one way or the other.



I'm not making the statement that Killington would see significant skier visits if Bear was kept open after April 1, so I don't see why I need to quantify it.


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## Highway Star (Mar 7, 2012)

threecy said:


> I'm not making the statement that Killington would see significant skier visits if Bear was kept open after April 1, so I don't see why I need to quantify it.


 
Well, since I don't feel the need to quantify it, why don't you go ahead and quantify it for us?


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## 2knees (Mar 7, 2012)

Ski the Moguls said:


> The reason why I make so many more posts over on KillingtonZone rather than here on AlpineZone is twofold. First, I bought season passes for the family at Killington this year and there is a lot more Killington specific information over there. Second, I find that the level of personal attacks is far greater here on AlpineZone. It seems that I cannot give my opinion about something without getting replies questioning my experience, or skiing ability, or what not. I was talking about the Bear area at Killington, not a post I made on another forum, and not about where I will choose to buy season passes next year.
> 
> It is very complimentary when 2knees and HighwayStar choose to share my posts between the 2 forums. At least someone is reading them! If you want to know the "elsewhere" that 2knees is referring to you can follow this link:
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34430&start=0
> ...




I got a bag full of wtf's for this post.

wtf are you telling me where you post for?  i neither care nor is it relevant.

I read that post on kzone and it made me laugh.  Like wtf, you have to dumb it down for people who don't spend every weekend at killington

Wtf are you talking about in regards to your skiing ability or expierence?  Nothing I posted even remotely broached the subject of your ability.  Wtf does that even have to do with it?  I said these topics have been discussed ad nauseaum for years, not "you suck at skiing"...  that's a double wtf.   I couldnt care less how well or how poorly you ski.  has no bearing on anything.

One more WTF.  I have no real interest in your spending habits, how much you make or what you do with your money.  Having read enough killington threads on these boards over the years leads me to the conclusion that you probably will, like most other k regulars, voice your complaints but plunk down the $'s next year on another pass.  If that is too personal for you, I suggest a thicker coat of skin.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 7, 2012)

2knees said:


> I got a bag full of wtf's for this post.
> 
> wtf are you telling me where you post for?  i neither care nor is it relevant.
> 
> ...


I know I never asked you to, but thank you for proving my point just the same.


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## ski_resort_observer (Mar 7, 2012)

On keeping Bear open.....increased skier visits, probably, increased revenue, probably, increased profits, debatable. The spring recreation cycle in the Boston and the NYC areas is starting much earlier than normal years. It's going to be harder to get people to come up. If the skier increases by having Bear open longer are marginal than Powdr made the right choice. If the increase is good without harming the other base areas than I guess you would be right. Too bad we will never know. :smile:


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## Highway Star (Mar 8, 2012)

*Killington - Twitter users - holler @powdrjdc (John Cumming of POWDR)*

Tell him how you feel about BMMC and early closing dates. Send him links to K-zone or alpine zone. 

Go!

(Note to Nick - can you please leave this ase a separate thread?  Thanks!)


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## Highway Star (Mar 8, 2012)

How about twittering to John Cumming of POWDR......

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showthread.php?p=700310


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## gmcunni (Mar 8, 2012)

@Mr. Cummings, as a shareholder I appreciate your fiscal responsibility. i understand and support your decision to close early.  Keep up the good work.


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## drjeff (Mar 8, 2012)

How long until some of the admins at K take out a restraining order against HS??


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## bobbutts (Mar 8, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> @Mr. Cummings, as a shareholder I appreciate your fiscal responsibility. i understand and support your decision to close early.  Keep up the good work.




@Mr. Cummings
I only ski at a bunny slope in ct.   It makes actual skiers upset when you close, and since I hate my own life and enjoy bothering other people, I'll pretend to support things you do and even pretend I have financial interest in it, even though that's a lie.  Hopefully the other people on the internet will think I'm cool.


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## Ski the Moguls (Mar 8, 2012)

drjeff said:


> How long until some of the admins at K take out a restraining order against HS??



No, Killington should just buy him a season pass to Stowe. Much easier.

Seriously though, HS, you know I support this cause, but you can see how excessive posting can turn even otherwise sane skiers against it. I mean, what skier would not want _any_ mountain to stay open longer, and with more terrain?


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## skiadikt (Mar 8, 2012)

ski_resort_observer said:


> On keeping Bear open.....increased skier visits, probably, increased revenue, probably, increased profits, debatable. The spring recreation cycle in the Boston and the NYC areas is starting much earlier than normal years. It's going to be harder to get people to come up. If the skier increases by having Bear open longer are marginal than Powdr made the right choice. If the increase is good without harming the other base areas than I guess you would be right. Too bad we will never know. :smile:



agree it's something we'll never know ... last season the final weekend for both bear (bmmc) & ramshead was april 2-3. weather wise it was a great weekend and on the saturday both lots were full and sunday they were 2/3-3/4 full. both were closed the following weekend when they still had enough snow to be open. wondered at the time how the mtn could make the decision to close when the lots were full the previous weekend. did they think/know there was gonna be that dramatic of a drop off and that they were gonna go from full to no one in one week? where did all those people go? kbl or did they hang it up? would 50% capacity at bear been good enough? or are you sending a message to your customers by shutting down 2 base areas, that perhaps the season is over and it's time to move into the spring recreation cycle. don't pretend to know the answer but one thing pres smith never did was send that message.

btw have no prob with them shutting down ramshead since those folks probably wouldn't have come back but bear is a different story.


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## gmcunni (Mar 8, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> @Mr. Cummings
> I only ski at a bunny slope in ct.   It makes actual skiers upset when you close, and since I hate my own life and enjoy bothering other people, I'll pretend to support things you do and even pretend I have financial interest in it, even though that's a lie.  Hopefully the other people on the internet will think I'm cool.



ouch, that's what i hate about AZ, too many personal attacks.


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## gmcunni (Mar 8, 2012)

Highway Star said:


> (Note to Nick - can you please leave this ase a separate thread?  Thanks!)



well, that didn't work.


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## gmcunni (Mar 8, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> @Mr. Cummings
> I only ski at a bunny slope in ct.   It makes actual skiers upset when you close, and since I hate my own life and enjoy bothering other people, I'll pretend to support things you do and even pretend I have financial interest in it, even though that's a lie.  Hopefully the other people on the internet will think I'm cool.



btw, i don't ONLY ski a bunny hill in CT, just MOSTLY.


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## 2knees (Mar 8, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> @Mr. Cummings
> I only ski at a bunny slope in ct.   It makes actual skiers upset when you close, and since I hate my own life and enjoy bothering other people, I'll pretend to support things you do and even pretend I have financial interest in it, even though that's a lie.  Hopefully the other people on the internet will think I'm cool.


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## bobbutts (Mar 8, 2012)

gmcunni said:


> ouch, that's what i hate about AZ, too many personal attacks.



noted, I'll try to veil it in a more ambiguous and impersonal attack next time


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## gmcunni (Mar 8, 2012)

bobbutts said:


> noted, I'll try to veil it in a more ambiguous and impersonal attack next time



thank you, i'd appreciate that.


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