# Magic's Red Chair down again!



## Smellytele (Dec 30, 2012)

This is too bad. Is the black chair running at all?


----------



## bobbutts (Dec 30, 2012)

Not even a mention of the Black chair.  Must not even be close to ready.


> *For Sunday 12/30*Regrettably we have closed for the day for safety reasons to continue to work on the Red Chair which did not perform to standard when it was fully loaded today. We will update you on progress and regret the inconvenience for so many.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 30, 2012)

Wow, that is really a shame. I read they had good crowds this weekend also. To have to close on a busy holiday weekend has got to hurt.


----------



## billski (Dec 30, 2012)

this is the wrong time.  middle of the profits, and a dis to their rep,.,   Lord knows how long the vt. inspectors can get there or if custom parts have to be made.  not good.  not good


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2012)

Too bad.  Prayers for them to get it up and running.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Dec 30, 2012)

If they were going to use the triple as a backup, why the hell wouldn't you have had it inspected at the beginning of the season? Not having a contingency plan in any industry is a bad decision.


----------



## Nick (Dec 30, 2012)

Wow, that's not good. Let's hope they get it resolved ASAP. The snow was incredible, sorry to hear about this. I wonder what the issue is? I don't know much about lift technology but it sounds like it must be something with a motor going bad if it can't support the full load.


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 30, 2012)

"it did not function to standard on a stop"

That certainly raises my eye brow a bit... 

... this is really too bad as Magic could not have hoped for a better Christmas holiday with lines and fully loaded chairs on back to back days following a late December storm. At least they have a base for the rest of the season. I know it is a minimalist operation barely scraping by thanks to the financial support of its shareholders... but Magic absolutely needs to fully functioning and inspected lifts to survive the long term. Those of us on here are understanding because we know Magic's situation and love the mountain for its terrain and vibe. Those not familiar or not as in love with the place and skiing it for the first time especially with a family during a ski trip are not going to be as forgiving. Hopefully this doesn't have long term negative effects...

EDIT: UGH so sick of formatting in posts. Can pasting formatting be disabled in vB?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2012)

It does seem odd that the triple was no readied in the fall and inspected with the other lifts on the same day.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2012)

No Triple is pretty ridic...


----------



## Bene288 (Dec 30, 2012)

I just saw this on their website. I don't think they were expecting the big snow this early. Absolutely not what they needed on one of the busiest weekend of the year. I felt bad taking the voucher they gave me on Saturday when it broke. After last season I wouldn't be surprised if they were too in the red to get both chairs up to par for the beginning of the season.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2012)

Any updates?


----------



## ALLSKIING (Dec 30, 2012)

Greg and Brian went there today but then headed up to Pico...


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 30, 2012)

As a Magic devotee this is hard for me to see.  Before my rant, a little about myself: I have been skiing Magic almost 25 years. My family has had places on the mountain for at least that long.  When the mountain was closed, we would sled or hike up and ski down.  We are season pass holders and also shareholders.  I love this mountain and there is nowhere I would rather ski in Vermont.  

I understand what I am about to say may not go over well with some people, and apologize for that.  But if this mountain succeeds it is going to be in spite of the way it is run.  The people that ski Magic are great and I don't think I could say this to anyone's face because they are such nice people and there are so many people that work so hard.  Not only that, you see people complaining about the lifts attacked on Magic's Facebook page.  The fact of the matter is that the ski industry is a business. Yes Magic is a family, but you can only lose money for so long.  There are only so many people that are willing to invest in the mountain and when that money is gone, that is the end.  Criticism is warranted where the mountain is closed on a holiday week with the best conditions since 2011.  Magic may very well have lost 25% of its revenue for the year - not to mention the lasting impression surely left with some people.

But it seems that, without fail, multiple times a year, and always on a holiday weekend, one of the lifts go down.  More often than not, it is the only lift running.  I have been stuck on the chair on more than one occasion.  Problems with the lifts are not unforeseen at Magic.  There needs to be a contingency plan and there never is.  It is inexcusable not to have both chairlifts in functional condition over Christmas week.  I understand there are limited funds, but let's be honest, if there is no snow, not many people come to Magic - even on a holiday week.   People know that Magic can't blow snow like the other resorts.  This will continue to be the case until the co-op funds are released and likely for at least a short while thereafter.  Thus, it seems like a waste of money to continue pouring money into a snow making system that can barely afford to be run.  Focus on having two working lifts.  If you can't get people up the mountain it doesn't matter how much snow you blow on the mountain.  And this is what I don't understand.  If the only improvements you can afford are mowing the trails and having working lifts, do that.  Because without lifts, what is the point?

I apologize for this rant and highly encourage everyone to try Magic.  When the lifts are running it really is the best and nicest place in Vermont.  Contrary to the reputation, there is amazing beginner and intermediate terrain to complement the unparallelled marked and unmarked expert runs.  There are lines more technical than in a lot of other places.  It is great to ski with your family because everyone always ends up in the same place at the base - there is no getting lost.  No one will run you over on the trails - you might even have them to yourself.  The point of this message is more, that as a Magic community, we need to stop making excuses for things that should never happen - this message is not intended to take anything away from the mountain and the many wonderful and hard working people who give there all to make it what it is.


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 30, 2012)

Now down Monday and Tuesday.  While I am thankful I was unable to be there for this, I can't begin to express my disappointment for the people that are already up there and unable to ski.


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 30, 2012)

Excellent post skithetrees. You make an interesting point in the pouring of money into the snow making system. For a while, I thought that Magic needed to blow more snow to succeed. But for all the money that has been invested in the snow making system, what do they have to show for it? They still couldn't open by the Christmas holiday except for the natural snow. 

But feeling safe on a lift is something we all take for granted. I appreciate Magic being honest in their assessment of their lift. Hopefully they get both Red and Black back into good working order. I suspect this weekend's difficulties will be on my mind next time I ski Magic and I'll probably put on that extra layer just in case.

You say "But if this mountain succeeds it is going to be in spite of the way it is run." and that is a pretty scary thought which begs the question why isn't it run differently. Do the shareholders have so little clout despite their investment? It seems like Magic needs an angel donor to give the mountain a million or three to get the basics taken care of so they can focus on the bigger picture.

I'll also end with the caveat that despite my honest assessment here, I love Magic and think everyone that enjoys old school, classic mountains with great and challenging natural snow trails and glades owes it to themselves to get there. Obviously, the word is getting out as evidenced by the amount of people there during the holiday week/weekend and by the amount of chatter this incident is generating. I think the chatter is based on loving concern rather than harsh criticism.


----------



## xwhaler (Dec 30, 2012)

From Magic's website....the 4 runs I made on Saturday were great (Gonnif, Tailsman, Slide of Hans, Sorcerer). 
I strongly considered going there this AM but opted for an AM session at Whaleback on my way home from VT instead. Amazing conbitions at the Whale...ropes dropping all moring....knee to thigh deep dry powder for first tracks. Little thin underfoot, def hit rock a few times but good for patrol for giving folks what they wanted. I know this is not Magic related but the Whale is a fun little mtn with sneaky legit terrain a la Magic. $15 Sunday AM ticket was probably the best powder to $$ ratio I've ever had in my life.


*Late Sunday Update:*
Here's a status on current lift reparirs and unfortunately the news is not good.  We need to replace one of the brake
systems on the Red Chair which requires procuring a part from Utah and, after installation, an updated inspection. We will make every effort to expedite this repair, but we will not be able to open for the next two days.
We are very disappointed that we will not have the lifts operational for you to access terrain for the remainder of this Holiday period. We are working to get the lower beginner tow and tubing park open so stay tuned on that front for late 12/31 or 1/1. We welcome, as always, those willing to skin, hike and snow shoe up Magic. There were quite a few today who got fresh tracks. Again, we look forrward to serving you soon as we work quickly to make repairs to the lifts.


----------



## Bene288 (Dec 30, 2012)

skithetrees said:


> Now down Monday and Tuesday.  While I am thankful I was unable to be there for this, I can't begin to express my disappointment for the people that are already up there and unable to ski.



Yeah I feel for those people. At least there are quite a few other ski options pretty close.


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 30, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> You say "But if this mountain succeeds it is going to be in spite of the way it is run." and that is a pretty scary thought which begs the question why isn't it run differently. Do the shareholders have so little clout despite their investment? It seems like Magic needs an angel donor to give the mountain a million or three to get the basics taken care of so they can focus on the bigger picture.



Shareholder funds have yet to be released.  Once they are, you probably know where I think they should be spent - two working lifts and a beginner chair.  Depending on what is leftover after that, snow making should be set up on one true beginner way down and one true expert way down (perhaps lucifer to blackline - the shortest way to get a true expert run).  Magic will not compete in the foreseeable future with the big boys when it comes to snow making and even if it could, the people who want that won't come here.  Having one true option for each level of skier is the best it should shoot for.  Give families an option that will make everyone happy - that is Magic's best strength.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 30, 2012)

[h=5]Dear Magic Customers:

 I am writing to provide you all an update on the status of the lifts  and unfortunately the news is not good.  We need to replace one of the  brake systems on the Red Chair which requires procuring a part from Utah  and, after installation, an updated inspection.  We will make every  effort to expedite this repair, but we will not be able to open for the  next two days.

 With respect to  the Black Chair, it is not approved yet because the lift inspector has  provided an extensive punch list of items which will take some time to  complete.

  I would like to apologize to the friends and fans of  Magic.  We have been hit with some extremely bad luck in terms of the  Red Chair failure, but ultimately I am responsible for delivering a  reliable product, and on that front I have failed.  I understand the  level of frustration and disappointment that people are feeling, and  will assure you all that I and my team will make every effort to repair  the lifts and get the mountain open again as soon as possible.  I will  personally keep you all updated on all developments, and will provide a  time frame for you all as soon as I am able to do so with some  certainty.  Thank you.

 Jim Sullivan[/h]


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2012)

Braking issue: that sounds very serious and something that should have been caught this fall. Get that other lift running ASAP. 

And FWIW, this is not the first time that I've heard about the VT lift inspectors dragging their a$$es on inspections at a resort's expense.  The other couple times involved my old home mountain and their difficulties in getting all of their lifts inspected at once.  When the snow came, and came it did, they could not open some key upper mountain lifts and folks were not happy.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2012)

This is a good point re: inspections but they have had all summer and fall to get the Black repaired and inspected... It is tough to justify additional snowmaking repairs without having both summit lifts in operational order. For as long as I can remember there has always been something wrong with the Black. If it were my money, I would want to see it fixed as the highest priority. With one lift, all it takes is one issue and you're all done...


----------



## bdfreetuna (Dec 30, 2012)

I can't hate. I know you guys aren't hating but making valid points. But I fell in love with Magic faster than any girl I've known on my first day there... same day the lift busted and I got stranded on it.

That's saying something. Now I'm on Team Magic. Watch what you say, motherfuckers!


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2012)

Newpylong said:


> This is a good point re: inspections but they have had all summer and fall to get the Black repaired and inspected... It is tough to justify additional snowmaking repairs without having both summit lifts in operational order. For as long as I can remember there has always been something wrong with the Black. If it were my money, I would want to see it fixed as the highest priority. With one lift, all it takes is one issue and you're all done...



Agreed.  I just assumed that they were doing routine lift work because all I saw on their FB page was talk of snowmaking repairs.  Old lifts are expensive to fix since parts can be scarce.  The only lift work I saw on their site and updates was painting.  Keeping lifts running is expensive and time consuming and probably not as sexy as fixing snowmaking.  Honestly, how much longer can those lifts continue considering that they are so old?  What if, like Middlebury, the state inspector looks at the concrete bases for the towers and says they need to be replaced?  That was going to be either a $450,000 fix or $1.5 million for a new lift.  They took the latter and on very short notice.  What is the plan if that happens here?


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2012)

And as skithetrees (welcome, btw) said on Magic's FB page there are folks who are attacking those who are voicing fairly legitimate concerns about the mountain and its lack of preparedness for this situation, let alone the ski season (I read two reports from here of the cafeteria being in disarray and being short-staffed). Attacking folks who have legitimate concerns is pretty lame and only burns bridges.  It's great to see that the co-op is going to happen, but this place is a business and we want to see it succeed and grow.  They need to get things in order and be professional about running the place.

Not hating, but just concerned about the place and hoping it will be OK.  Folks have now invested a lot of money to make it go.


----------



## Masskier (Dec 31, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Agreed.  I just assumed that they were doing routine lift work because all I saw on their FB page was talk of snowmaking repairs.  Old lifts are expensive to fix since parts can be scarce.  The only lift work I saw on their site and updates was painting.  Keeping lifts running is expensive and time consuming and probably not as sexy as fixing snowmaking.  Honestly, how much longer can those lifts continue considering that they are so old?  What if, like Middlebury, the state inspector looks at the concrete bases for the towers and says they need to be replaced?  That was going to be either a $450,000 fix or $1.5 million for a new lift.  They took the latter and on very short notice.  What is the plan if that happens here?



How old are the lifts?  I know Burke has to have custom parts made for their poma lift.


----------



## steamboat1 (Dec 31, 2012)

All the lifts at Smuggs are as old or likely older than Magic's. More lifts, greater vertical & longer length to boot. They seem to manage to keep them operational.


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 31, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> All the lifts at Smuggs are as old or likely older than Magic's. More lifts, greater vertical & longer length to boot. They seem to manage to keep them operational.


I suspect the lifts at Smuggs see far more attention and service than Magic's. Also, don't forget that Smuggs lifts didn't sit dormant for years nor are they franken lifts like the Black that has been retrofitted a bunch of times. It isn't just the age but the lack of maintenance over that time span.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2012)

steamboat1 said:


> All the lifts at Smuggs are as old or likely older than Magic's. More lifts, greater vertical & longer length to boot. They seem to manage to keep them operational.



Agree with Riv that Smuggs probably has the revenue to stay on top of them.  Smuggs has all Hall Doubles, which have a reputation as being well-built and easy to still get parts.  I know that the Red is a Poma Heron, I think, and the triple is some company that is long gone.  

Also Smuggs has not changed hands so many times.  When a place either sits dormant or changes hands sometimes maintenance slips through the cracks.  Burke's previous owners, including a bank or two, had no idea about chair lift maintenance and later owners ended up paying for that lack of maintenance when the Willoughby Quad would go down due to something that should have been caught.


----------



## powbmps (Dec 31, 2012)

They had the Black lift fired up for some kind of testing on Thursday.  At least it moves.


----------



## Bene288 (Dec 31, 2012)

thetrailboss said:


> Agree with Riv that Smuggs probably has the revenue to stay on top of them.  Smuggs has all Hall Doubles, which have a reputation as being well-built and easy to still get parts.  I know that the Red is a Poma Heron, I think, and the triple is some company that is long gone.



The triple is a Pohlig Yan lift, like you said, they're probably long gone. I can't even imagine what custom made machining parts for these things cost. It's probably been retrofitted half a dozen times, like Riv said. I'd think a chair lift is just like any  other mechanical piece of equipment. It needs to run regularly and be  lubed often to operate correctly. The down time in the 90's probably  really took it's toll.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Dec 31, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> I suspect the lifts at Smuggs see far more attention and service than Magic's. Also, don't forget that Smuggs lifts didn't sit dormant for years nor are they franken lifts like the Black that has been retrofitted a bunch of times. It isn't just the age but the lack of maintenance over that time span.



Not to mention they get a lot more help from mother nature to keep a steady revenue stream. They have also carved out there niche with their kids programs.


----------



## makimono (Dec 31, 2012)

Rotten luck :sad:  there were a lot of SUV's full of families heading the wrong direction yesterday. This has got to really hurt the bottom line for the year and will probably impact season pass sales next year too. 

The positive vibe at Magic is as strong as ever though...the people I met in the steady boot line to the goods were all super positive, I even ran into a trio of snowboarders at the top of Black Line who had all just done their first ever run at Magic before the lift stopped and were raving about how awesome a ski area it was in spite of just postholing uphill for two hours to get their second ever run.

I also hate seeing people getting cussed out on facebook. I know how passionate people are especially when they've put in hundreds of volunteer hours towards saving the mountain, but there's a LOT of people (prospective customers) that read that FB page and calling someone an a-hole for complaining, even if they do deserve it, I don't see how that helps the mountain any. While the ski area can and has been saved with a handful of super dedicated people, a base of hardcore skiers and a few hundred shareholders...I think it needs those repeat sales of families and season passes to be sustainable, it's not sustainable long term with just share sales and volunteers.


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 31, 2012)

The lifts were run regularly (at least monthly) during at least a portion of the down time.  I know the person that was responsible for it.  That said, much of the infrastructure did break down.  Rumors abounded of sabotage to the snow making lines and all sorts of other issues.  As far as the availability of parts, my understanding was there was supposed to be a rolling maintenance program on the lifts with targets for % of parts replaced each year.  Many parts had to be custom machined at a machine shop that, allegedly, didn't always get the parts in time.  Not to mention the high cost of getting the parts made.  All in all, it is an unfortunate situation but it is not a surprise.  I do not fault them for the issues they have.  They are doing what they think is best with what is available.  But to relive the same failures year after year is inexcusable.  Repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity.  People need to wake up and see that as much as they love the mountain, shareholders and season pass holders, alone, cannot sustain it.  People that criticize and name call those who express the point of view of a first time, or even regular but non-seasons pass holder, skier only contribute to the insanity and prevent the hard questions that must be asked from being asked.  As I said before, the mountain is a business in the end, no matter how much people think of it as a family.  The fact that Magic is a family is what makes it so special and is a large part of its draw.  However, the Magic family cannot exist without Magic.  There is no bottomless pile of money keeping Magic afloat.  Again, please don't take my criticism as any hate on Magic.  As I have already stated, I love the place.  But what is needed now is a kind of tough love that sets things straight and not the kind of love that enables repetitious shortcomings.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2012)

makimono said:


> Rotten luck :sad:  there were a lot of SUV's full of families heading the wrong direction yesterday. This has got to really hurt the bottom line for the year and will probably impact season pass sales next year too.
> 
> The positive vibe at Magic is as strong as ever though...the people I met in the steady boot line to the goods were all super positive, I even ran into a trio of snowboarders at the top of Black Line who had all just done their first ever run at Magic before the lift stopped and were raving about how awesome a ski area it was in spite of just postholing uphill for two hours to get their second ever run.
> 
> I also hate seeing people getting cussed out on facebook. I know how passionate people are especially when they've put in hundreds of volunteer hours towards saving the mountain, but there's a LOT of people (prospective customers) that read that FB page and calling someone an a-hole for complaining, even if they do deserve it, I don't see how that helps the mountain any. While the ski area can and has been saved with a handful of super dedicated people, a base of hardcore skiers and a few hundred shareholders...I think it needs those repeat sales of families and season passes to be sustainable, it's not sustainable long term with just share sales and volunteers.



Spot on here with the FB comments.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2012)

Re: sabotaging the snowmaking lines. On the NELSAP board there were folks who spewed venom about Magic. Can someone explain why there is such intense hate from a group of folks? Were they former employees who got stiffed a paycheck or two? Creditors left holding the bag?


----------



## slatham (Dec 31, 2012)

Re: Black - I have it from a reliable source that the VT lift inspector requested a last minute test of certain equipement that is not necessarily requested each year. Sounded like the "inspection" is an iterative process, had in fact been ongoing, had gotten through all other issues, but this last minute request was both unexpected and time consuming to complete. There has been significant work on Black, including custom made replacement parts to get it through inspection and up and running last year. So no, they had not been ignoring the Black Chair. It ran last year, and will run again this year.

So, going into the holiday's, with limited resources, and recalling that the week before the holidays there was NO SNOW, what is the priority? No snow, but 2 working lifts? Or snow, at least on a couple of trails, with one fairly reliable chair? Rock vs hard place. Nobody on this forum or FB had to make that call now, and none ( me included) were in a position to make it in the first place. Only Jim and his team. Hindsight is 20/20. Had this been a typical holiday season Red would not have been fully loaded and would have gotten through no problem. Load up an old lift - heck, any lift - no matter how well maintained, and things will break. The Alpine Chair at Bromley was down on Friday. The high spend quad was down, due to maintance issues, on Sat Dec 1. It happens.

Re snowmaking - the mountain now has fairly good coverage of terrain with working snowmaking. The issue is more of budget to make snow. With the shareholder money not yet released the budget is still tight. But this year they can run circa 24 guns simutaneously, vs half that last year. Witch to Blackline was added to covered terrain. If I have this right that is in addition to Showoff, Trick, upper and lower Magic Carpet, Wand, Medium, Vertigo, Hocus Pocus, upper and lower Wizard, and Talisman. More will be online next year.

Obviously a bummer - I was on the lift Saturday with my brother and 2 of my daughters so I was there - but this should not be viewed as the failure of an incompetent management, nor something that can't and won't be rectified over the next severals days.


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 31, 2012)

slatham said:


> Re snowmaking - the mountain now has fairly good coverage of terrain with working snowmaking. The issue is more of budget to make snow. With the shareholder money not yet released the budget is still tight. But this year they can run circa 24 guns simutaneously, vs half that last year. Witch to Blackline was added to covered terrain. If I have this right that is in addition to Showoff, Trick, upper and lower Magic Carpet, Wand, Medium, Vertigo, Hocus Pocus, upper and lower Wizard, and Talisman. More will be online next year.



I guess this was a bit of my point.  Why add snow making to all of these routes down without having the lift reliably running first?  When Magic can't afford to blow snow for an extended period of time, what is the point of having 50%, 75%, 100% snow making coverage?  Get a beginner and expert way down and call it a day until mother nature helps out.  Instead of expanding snow making coverage, the money should have been spent on reliable lifts.  People want an adventure on their way down - not on the way up.  Magic has had an all too frequent history of lift issues - including one where some people were injured.  Again, please don't take my criticism personally, but someone needs to say something.

Trailboss, as far as the NELSAP animosity, some of the previous owners didn't have the best reputation in town.  This ranges from not paying tax bills, delayed (maybe even denied) payments to contractors and employees, vandalism to local property by family members of the owners, and over all just not vibing with the local community.  *Let me stress that these people are long gone* and that the mountain has come a long way under Jim Sullivan since that time.  I am merely trying to express my feelings as far as what else needs to be done.


----------



## Riverskier (Dec 31, 2012)

I have never skied Magic, and therefore have no comment on a number of points here. However, if I ran a mountain with only 2 lifts, having them both inspected and in running order prior to the start of the season would me my #1 priority. Having your mountain shutdown during a holiday period is catastrophic, and I can't imagine anything else (snowmaking included) being more important than mitigating that risk.


----------



## slatham (Dec 31, 2012)

I do agree with your point re: lifts vs snowmaking. However, the snowmaking "expansion" was actually repairing pre-existing pipe and thus, I would guess, pretty low cost other than labor. Also, it is my understanding that, other than certain items pointed out by the inspector, everything that should have been done to Red and Black was done. Let's remember that Red passed inspection, and Black was on its way, just taking longer than anticipated. And the inspectors schedule is not controlled by Jim and Magic, so delays are often out of their control. 

Easy to play Monday morning quarterback, or defender in my case. But in both cases we don't have all the info. I will give Jim the benefit of the doubt. 

Think snow (and quickly arriving lift parts)!


----------



## abc (Dec 31, 2012)

Riverskier said:


> I have never skied Magic, and therefore have no comment on a number of points here. However, if I ran a mountain with only 2 lifts, having them both inspected and in running order prior to the start of the season would me my #1 priority. Having your mountain shutdown during a holiday period is catastrophic, and I can't imagine anything else (snowmaking included) being more important than mitigating that risk.


Likely, I don't know enough about the ski hill business to say for sure. But I too, would guess the lifts are more important than snow making. After all, skiers only pay for LIFT ticket, not snow tickets. 

Sure, no snow means no one will buy lift ticket. But snow without lift still means no LIFT tickets! 

More over, Magic is a speck in a crowded sea of other southern mountains that makes a whole lot more snow, AND running lifts. So it would seems to me adding more snowmaking merely make it like other mountains. It would take a whole bucket load of money to compete there. 

Not having running lifts, that's no competition. It's a failure incomparable to any other failures. 

That said, I do understand lifts are machines and machine sometimes do break. And it's conceivable to just have "bad luck" when the main lift is broken during a period when the "spare" happens to be unoperable. But it's really bad timing when that happens to be the most important week of the year!


----------



## riverc0il (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't think saying that Magic can't control the inspection schedule is a valid point. If that was a major issue in the ski industry, we would see a lot of lifts not ready to spin. But, in fact, a lift not being ready to go into service when needed is rare. Extremely rare. Clearly this is not an issue for almost all other areas that have their lifts spinning when called upon season after season. 

I don't think making up excuses for Magic is going to help smooth things over. skithetrees is doing a great job calling a spade a spade while also pointing out his passion for the area. Magic needs to get Black running and make sure it is good to go when that inspector visits again and ensure it is good to go for opening day every season going forward, just like Red. It is a contingency they can't afford not to make, given their lost profit during a holiday period, free skiing they extended through vouchers, and bad PR they are getting.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know about maintenance operations, but I'd imagine getting your lift inspected, when you want to by the state involves a certain degree of politics. Larger resorts don't have a problem with this, but I could see Magic having an issue with this because of their size and number of operations/management staff members


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 31, 2012)

abc said:


> Sure, no snow means no one will buy lift ticket. But snow without lift still means no LIFT tickets!
> 
> More over, Magic is a speck in a crowded sea of other southern mountains that makes a whole lot more snow, AND running lifts. So it would seems to me adding more snowmaking merely make it like other mountains. It would take a whole bucket load of money to compete there.



Exactly my point!  You can make all the snow in the world but nobody is paying you to skin up it.  Magic needs to realize its niche and fulfill it.  That nitch is expert skiers *and* families.  Expert skiers, alone, will not sustain it.  Magic will not compete on blown snow any time soon.  Instead, it delivers a second to none family and expert experience that will rely, in large part, on natural snow to be successful.  One day it may have the means to blow more snow, but for now that is not the case.  The priorities need to be reliable lifts and getting the original beginner area - one of the best in Vermont, back up and running.


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 31, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> I don't know about maintenance operations, but I'd imagine getting your lift inspected, when you want to by the state involves a certain degree of politics. Larger resorts don't have a problem with this, but I could see Magic having an issue with this because of their size and number of operations/management staff members



I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe inspectors have been out same day in the past when emergency maintenance has had to be performed.  Scheduling a full inspection may be a different story.  That said, if everything is in properly functioning condition, an inspection should not be something to fear.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Dec 31, 2012)

skithetrees said:


> I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe inspectors have been out same day in the past when emergency maintenance has had to be performed.  Scheduling a full inspection may be a different story.  That said, if everything is in properly functioning condition, an inspection should not be something to fear.



I was referring to Magic not having the black lift inspected yet, just to clarify, my b


----------



## skithetrees (Dec 31, 2012)

skiNEwhere said:


> I was referring to Magic not having the black lift inspected yet, just to clarify, my b



Totally understand.  My comment may have been a bit vague but generally applies to both.  If you are ever in VT give Magic a shot, you won't regret it!  Stay safe and get home soon.


----------



## twinplanx (Dec 31, 2012)

This whole saga makes me sad  doesn't everybody love the underdog? Hopefully lady luck will smile on our beloved very soon...


----------



## abc (Dec 31, 2012)

twinplanx said:


> This whole saga makes me sad  doesn't everybody love the underdog? Hopefully lady luck will smile on our beloved very soon...


Not just because they're underdogs. There're other nitch mountains that have devoted followings. MRG being the most famous one. And Plattekill another I know of and ski from time to time. 

There're a small percentage of fans who love the low key mountains for the simple pleasure of skiing natural trails without all the fancy grooming and expensive trappings. Plus the families from surrounding areas who let their children run free on the mountain. 

Magic is a "family" resort that also attracts advance skiers. It is a nitch that has some following. Whether that's enough following to make it work or not remains to be seen except, only if the mountain is actually operating.


----------



## snoseek (Dec 31, 2012)

twinplanx said:


> This whole saga makes me sad  doesn't everybody love the underdog? Hopefully lady luck will smile on our beloved very soon...




Yeah it's pretty sad.

Some food for thought. Just imagine if it had been the K-1 gondy at K or maybe the Superstar chair at K. There would surely be a k=fail thread....im sure of it and you would still have 25 or so lifts left to take. People plan shit on weeks like x-mas week, they buy passes, the mountain needs to do what it takes to accomodate those customers. No excuses. Period.

All we can hope for is that the curious aren't turned off. The loyal will stay loyal but its the fringe people (hint, hint, the vacation week crowd) are what's gonna make or break this mountain. 

We can also hope the powers that be learn a little something from this. Bad luck? Hell no! This is something that can't happen again if they plan on being in it for the long haul and if they want those things like snowmaking and upgrades that they so desperately need then they're gonna have to get savvy. Grass roots feel good shit aint gonna get it done, smart mgmt is. It's like walking into a casino with a 20 and having to win a grand to pay rent...

So yeah, I'll jump on the Magic Mountain tough love bandwagon. Sorry guys, I know you post here sometime but this is a forum and it connects you to skiers, customers and potential customers. Best skiing south of Sugarbush IMO. When there's snow it's unmatched in southern VT and it's a mountain that DOES need to be open for the sake of goodness and would leave a giant hole in southern VT if closed. I'm rooting for you magic, figure it out!

And yes I am aware of the shoestring budget and hard hard work thats gone into it so far


----------



## bdfreetuna (Dec 31, 2012)

Well said abc and snoseek.

I think if this winter stays snowy Magic is still in a position to have an excellent season. Hopefully more people will check them out. I agree it's the most fun place south of Sugarbush.

For advanced skiers who love natural conditions and gnarly trails.. and could care less about some new $10 million lodge and all that junk, Magic is such a gem. And for $59 on weekends for adults that's the cheapest ticket around, strikes me as a no-brainer if the snow is good.

Around these parts I think if anything this buzz is probably making more people interested in trying the mountain because people are always saying how awesome it is... once the lifts are up and running again of course.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2012)

snoseek and abc nailed it.  What is the difference between a NELSAP area and an operating one?  The lifts are spinning.  Yeah, you can skin up Magic, but that does not translate into money.  Period.  I know that they may make some money in the bar, store, blah, blah, but most folks are not going to want to hike for turns.  

And I agree with what snoseek said about how the place is being run.  skithetrees probably is expressing the sentiment of a lot of folks who have invested in the place.  The real shame is that the folks who worked their asses off during the past three years to sell shares and get their friends to invest are being let down by the folks who are running the mountain.  If I was one who lobbied folks to invest I might be pretty embarrassed actually by this situation.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 1, 2013)

WOW!!!

We have a lot of experts in this thread.


----------



## Masskier (Jan 1, 2013)

This is indeed bad news.  I haven't skied Magic in years, but it use to be one of my favorites.  Back in the early 70's we use to call Magic, Bromley and Stratton the Golden Triangle.  That was before Stratton became a mega resort.

There is no question that Magic has a group of the most loyal skiers that any ski area could have.  However it seems that the mountain really needs a substantial investment to keep it viable.


----------



## marcski (Jan 1, 2013)

Too bad the red chair isn't a Hall.  Old Halls just don't seem to breakdown as frequently as Magic's Heron-Poma and seem to be workhorses that don't breakdown. 

What make is the black chair?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2013)

marcski said:


> Too bad the red chair isn't a Hall.  Old Halls just don't seem to breakdown as frequently as Magic's Heron-Poma and seem to be workhorses that don't breakdown.
> 
> What make is the black chair?



A Pohlig (only lift of its kind in the US) later converted to a triple by Yan.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 1, 2013)

Guess I'll be crossing Magic off my "new mountains to hit" list for this season.  Hopefully management gets their collective house in order as it certainly sounds like a terrain gem from the numerous posters on this board.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 1, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Guess I'll be crossing Magic off my "new mountains to hit" list for this season.  Hopefully management gets their collective house in order as it certainly sounds like a terrain gem from the numerous posters on this board.


I wouldn't take it off your list. In a matter of fact, this incident is a good reason to put it back on your list as you can guarantee the brake system will work after it gets inspected again after this failure. With an excellent base down already, I bet Magic is going to have several off the hook days this season.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 1, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> I wouldn't take it off your list. In a matter of fact, this incident is a good reason to put it back on your list as you can guarantee the brake system will work after it gets inspected again after this failure. With an excellent base down already, I bet Magic is going to have several off the hook days this season.



If there is a silver lining, they may see a ton of skiers because they will probably have the best snow in the region because of upcoming weather forecasts!


----------



## billski (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm in marketing, albeit high tech.  If I put that hat on for a minute, you've got a huge sunk cost that needs revenue ASAP.  I'm not going to wait until next year.  You've got two more shots at big revenue, MLK weekend, and President's day.

As soon as you have confidence in the lift being operation, pull out all stops at marketing.  Deals, events, demo days, races, barbeque, live bands, bond fires, PR, whatever it takes to get people here.  Make this place rock after the lifts close.  Not just for the bar, but everyone, all ages.

At first, I was going to offer that they keep pumping snow out while the lift is down, but that is too big a risk to take.  So I'd take the marketing approach first.  Once the wheel is spinning, start blasting snow again, so you have a season that lasts longer.

A couple other points.  I have a daytrippers event going on February 2nd.  I'm not calling it off.  The more newbies, the better.  I'm still going to promote it.  Jim and I have been planning some events, such as organized tours.  Perhaps we'll even ratchet it up a bit.

Magic lovers need to work hard to get their newbie friends here.  Most newbies will undoubtedly only ski Magic once this year.  Enough to plant the seed to come back. 

With regard to parts, it is pretty common for resorts to horse-trade and simply help out those they do not compete with for old parts.  

If I recall, the red lift had an issue I think a year or two ago; it was some sort of gear I think.  and the inspector got right out here, it turned out to only require a brief re-inspection.  What concerns me is the lift's ability to operate under full load.  If I recall, that was the same problem it had last time.  Sounds like an extended stress test is in order.

Lastly, regarding politics.  Everyone should start writing and calling the safety board and the responsible VT legislators and push them to expedite re-inspection.  Stressing how you'd like to bring money to this economically challenged area and grow taxable revenue should at least open a few eyes.


----------



## KD7000 (Jan 1, 2013)

Magic is on my hit list for this season, as I've never been there.  Hopefully they get their issues sorted out.


----------



## Nick (Jan 1, 2013)

Is it still down?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


----------



## billski (Jan 1, 2013)

Nick said:


> Is it still down?
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2



http://www.magicmtn.com/


----------



## billski (Jan 1, 2013)

Their facebook page:

Posted 7 hours ago:

The new part for Red Chair was flown in last night.


----------



## Scruffy (Jan 1, 2013)

Do NOT take Magic off your hit list, in fact double down and make an extra effort to get there. Magic is a special place, go after a dump, esp. if you like glades.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 1, 2013)

i read they were giving day trippers vouchers for a return visit, were season pass holders comp'd in any way?


----------



## billski (Jan 1, 2013)

*Passenger Tramway Safety Rules*

[h=1]Passenger Tramway Safety Rules[/h]2006 Vermont Passenger Tramway Rules & Addendum to ANSI B.77.1-2006



...

1002.6 Incident Reports
Items, which may warrant immediate tramway shut down by the Department, are:

1) Failure of protection circuits, operation circuits, supervision circuits etc.

2) Improperly functioning brakes or back stops. [h=1] 
[/h]

3) Line sheave failure or potential failure condition, sheave train misalignment. 

4) Non-functioning or misadjusted APU  

5) An incomplete daily preoperational lift inspection log

6) Any other condition, which may affect safe operation of tramway.
...
1002.8 Inspections and Maintenance

All aerial tramways shall be load tested at intervals not exceeding seven years.  An acceptance test may be required by the Department when changes or modifications occur as defined in ANSI B.77.1-2006 section 1.2.4.4 - Ropeway modification.

Each year on all aerial tramways, the minimum grip, clip, hanger and carrier NDT shall be a rotating sample of 10 units or 20% of total units, whichever is greater.  If any of the 20% or 10 units, whichever is greater, is rejected per manufacturer’s criteria, another 20% or 10 units, whichever is greater, shall be tested.  Any rejects in this second sample group shall be cause for 100% testing. If the manufacturer’s recommendations are stricter than this, then those recommendations shall be followed. The Passenger Tramway Technician shall be notified of these rejected components. 

During the annual inspection, the area operator shall be prepared to demonstrate APU operation and related emergency procedures during a loss of control power. 

1002.9 Brake Testing

All brakes shall be torque tested at an interval not to exceed 30 days of operation.   

A brake testing log shall be posted at each drive which will give the most recent test results, the date, and shall be signed by the person performing the test on all brakes.

All dynamometers and torque wrenches used for brake adjustment shall be calibrated annually and the documentation shall be posted in the brake testing log.

...
1007.2 Chairs

Each chair shall be equipped with a restraint bar, which shall not yield to forward pressure applied by passenger(s).

The passenger(s) must have the restraint bar fully closed except when they are embarking or disembarking the lift.

...
1008.2 Annual Wire Rope Inspection

An annual wire rope inspection shall be performed by an independent wire rope inspector who has been approved by the Department. A copy of this inspection report shall be filed with the department and with the operator.

The annual wire rope inspection report shall include haul rope, counterweight rope and backstay support rope or other auxiliary ropes.


----------



## KevinF (Jan 1, 2013)

I was last at Magic in the 2010 / 11 season, and back then, I heard that the Black Chair was going to be fixed.  I forget the details as to what was wrong with it, but has the Black Chair ever run since Magic was re-opened?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2013)

I wonder if this will make the management rethink the priorities for the mountain.  IIRC the intent was to (1) buy the mountain, (2) invest in snowmaking, and (3) do whatever else was needed.  Too bad they could not have gotten their hands on that Ascutney HSQ or even one of Ascutney's used fixed grips.


----------



## SKI-3PO (Jan 1, 2013)

The Black chair definitely ran last season.  I rode it one of the holiday weekends last year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2013)

SKI-3PO said:


> The Black chair definitely ran last season.  I rode it one of the holiday weekends last year.



How was the ride?  That is an old lift.


----------



## SKI-3PO (Jan 1, 2013)

Now that you mention it, I recall it being not very comfortable.  Had to ride it though since I had never seen it run before.  I think it was President's Day, but it could have been MLK Sunday when we were also there.  I don't think it ran for long - definitely didn't run all day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2013)

SKI-3PO said:


> Now that you mention it, I recall it being not very comfortable.  Had to ride it though since I had never seen it run before.  I think it was President's Day, but it could have been MLK Sunday when we were also there.  I don't think it ran for long - definitely didn't run all day.



It has the old Yan chairs that I know some here despise because it has a shaped back for each person (instead of it being flat).


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Jan 2, 2013)

These sort of things happen everywhere.  Ski Roundtop which just managed to get open with a few slopes here in Central PA had their main quad breakdown 3 days ago.  They already had lost most of X-mas week and then their main lift broke.  Luckily they have some redundant lifts, but still it was a black eye and what I would assume to be a pretty expensive cost at their hands.  They had to replace the gearbox, which isn't exactly the type of part you keep lying around.  

Hopefully Majic get's it rolling again, and perhaps will refocus their investors on lift maintenance so that everyone can enjoy what the mountain has to offer.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> It has the old Yan chairs that I know some here despise because it has a shaped back for each person (instead of it being flat).



The lift looks very familiar to me. I think they still have one of these at Lake Louise. I could be wrong though. If I remember correctly the back is very uncomfortable and the people on the end have to sit kind of sideways. Oh well, I think people will just be happy with a running lift.


----------



## jrmagic (Jan 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I wonder if this will make the management rethink the priorities for the mountain. IIRC the intent was to (1) buy the mountain, (2) invest in snowmaking, and (3) do whatever else was needed. Too bad they could not have gotten their hands on that Ascutney HSQ or even one of Ascutney's used fixed grips.


Improving the snowmaking is still the top priority of the partnership. There is no need at all for a HSQ but I wouldn't mind them eventually replacing the black chair with a fixed grip quad. I won't try and  play armchair ski area operator but my family and I were certainly dissapointed with the breakdown. The really sad part is that many of the people I saw on Thursday and Friday were day ticket holders. With the snow conditions as good as they were, the events that occurred caused Magic to lose a substantial revenue stream.  The new part was actually delivered at 3:00 in the Morning on New Year's Day as I was leaving the lodge from the NYE party. On New Year's Day there was work being done to ready black for the annual inspection. I am hopeful that both chairs will be inspected and ready to go for next weekend.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> It has the old Yan chairs that I know some here despise because it has a shaped back for each person (instead of it being flat).



The Bear Mountain fixed grip quad at K has these chairs & is uncomfortable. The Snowshed HSQ still has the old Yan chairs too but for some reason don't seem as uncomfortable. I believe the Pico quads have the same chairs as Snowshed also.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 2, 2013)

jrmagic said:


> Improving the snowmaking is still the top priority of the partnership. There is no need at all for a HSQ but I wouldn't mind them eventually replacing the black chair with a fixed grip quad. I won't try and  play armchair ski area operator but my family and I were certainly dissapointed with the breakdown. The really sad part is that many of the people I saw on Thursday and Friday were day ticket holders. With the snow conditions as good as they were, the events that occurred caused Magic to lose a substantial revenue stream.  The new part was actually delivered at 3:00 in the Morning on New Year's Day as I was leaving the lodge from the NYE party. On New Year's Day there was work being done to ready black for the annual inspection. I am hopeful that both chairs will be inspected and ready to go for next weekend.



Uphill capacity should be way at the bottom of the totum pole. Reliable lift service and snowmaking should keep them plenty busy for the near future.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 2, 2013)

[FONT=&quot]1/2/13[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Re: Lift Update[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dear Passholders and Friends:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I want to advise you all as to the progress on the lift front the past two days.  On Monday we pursued five different leads throughout the country for the necessary part on the Red Chair, and were able to get it shipped from Detroit to Boston on New Year’s Eve with the part eventually arriving at Magic at 2:30 AM yesterday.  We arranged for a mechanical engineer in Springfield, VT to come in on New Year’s day.  He worked all day removing the faulty parts, milling news fasteners, and installing the new part on the shaft.  The shaft and braking mechanism are being installed this morning.  The lift inspector will review the installation as soon as it is completed, and thereafter he has required that we load test the lift.  A load test consists of putting weight on every chair by filling barrels of water on each chair and then executing a complete battery of tests.  As part of the test, an electrical engineer will be on site making any necessary adjustments to the electrical and safety systems.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On the Black chair we arranged for a cable inspection which occurred yesterday with a positive result.  Also, the lift inspector approved a process to be performed on each grip which will allow the chairs to swing freely (a requirement for the lift to pass inspection).  With approval of that process the work on that task has begun on every chair.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Snowmaking also continued through the night at both the Beginner Tow Handle area and Tube Park to create enough base depth for the tow lifts to operate properly and last us though March. Now that there is enough machine-made snow, the lift tracks can be groomed out today and angled properly for safety purposes so they can be inspected this week as well.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is obviously a great deal to accomplish in a short period of time, but we have the experts, the inspector and personnel in place to accomplish it.  All hands are on deck in an effort to get the Red Chair, Beginner Handle Tow and Tube Park tow prepared to run on Saturday.  I will update you all as to the progress on the above tasks as they move forward.  If there are any questions, feel free to contact me.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sincerely,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jim Sullivan[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]President[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Magic Mountain[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]


----------



## jrmagic (Jan 2, 2013)

gmcunni said:


> i read they were giving day trippers vouchers for a return visit, were season pass holders comp'd in any way?



This was sent in the same email that smelly just posted...

We will continue to keep you up-to-date on progress as we work to start anew in 2013 this Saturday. We truly appreciate all those who came out in force early in the Holiday Week and the support shown by so many in the face of the lift shut down and closure. It has been a frustrating time for many loyal supporters and every one here at Magic, but the Magic Crew is focused on doing everything we can to try and get you out on the snow at Magic this weekend.
For our season passholders, we will be providing a ticket voucher that can be used by any family member or friend you choose to give it to, plus a voucher for food at the Black Line Tavern as a thank you for being there with us through this time. 
On behalf of every one at Magic, we wish you a wonderful 2013 and look forward to seeing you on the slopes again soon. 
- The Magic Team


----------



## billski (Jan 2, 2013)

OUTSTANDING!  ULLR HAS HELPED, BUT JIM AND CREW HAVE DONE ALL THE WORK.  THANK YOU FOR DOUBLING DOWN AND GETTING A LIFT TWOFER.  IF YOU'RE OPEN ON FRIDAY, I'LL BE THERE... CROSS SKI TIPS...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2013)

So I just read these updates from the mountain.  A whole load test is going to take at least a day for the Red Chair.  Now hearing about the grips on the Black is not good at all and that will be time consuming.  It looks like at least a week for them.  Hopefully they will not lose MLK Weekend because that would really set them back.


----------



## billski (Jan 2, 2013)

Please consider sending stephen.monahan@state.vt.us of the Vermont Passenger Tramway Division appreciation for making re-inspection a priority.  I have.


----------



## billski (Jan 2, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> So I just read these updates from the mountain.  A whole load test is going to take at least a day for the Red Chair.  Now hearing about the grips on the Black is not good at all and that will be time consuming.  It looks like at least a week for them.  Hopefully they will not lose MLK Weekend because that would really set them back.



I wonder if having help filling and emptying the barrels would speed things up.


----------



## AdironRider (Jan 2, 2013)

So admittantly Im still catching up on this thread, but they didnt cover these load test issues back in the fall? Or is this just a reissue now that they have had a problem? 

Either way, bad management.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2013)

billski said:


> I wonder if having help filling and emptying the barrels would speed things up.



Possibly.  Depends if they have more than one hydrant to fill the barrels and if they have the barrels handy or if they have to go all over the mountain to get them.  Good idea.  Contact Magic and ask.  



AdironRider said:


> So admittantly Im still catching up on this thread, but they didnt cover these load test issues back in the fall? Or is this just a reissue now that they have had a problem?
> 
> Either way, bad management.



It's a reissue.


----------



## billski (Jan 2, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Either way, bad management.



I'm not so quick to call it bad management.   I tested my sump pump before the rains in the spring. I check monthly. Is it my bad management if the pump fails halfway through the year?



1002.9 Brake Testing

*All brakes shall be torque tested at an interval not to exceed 30 days of operation.   
*
A brake testing log shall be posted at each drive which will give the most recent test results, the date, and shall be signed by the person performing the test on all brakes.

All dynamometers and torque wrenches used for brake adjustment shall be calibrated annually and the documentation shall be posted in the brake testing log.


http://labor.vermont.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=203 
http://labor.vermont.gov/Default.aspx?tabid=207


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2013)

billski said:


> I'm not so quick to call it bad management. I tested my sump pump before the rains in the spring. I check monthly. Is it my bad management if the pump fails halfway through the year?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A brake failure is a pretty substantial issue and if the rules you cite apply then they should have had at least 
some advanced notice that the system was going to fail.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2013)

They did a load test on the Canyon chair at K last month. It took a couple of days to set everything up with barrels but only took one day to perform the actual test. I'd assume it would take the same amount of time at Magic. Actually it might be easier at Magic because the chair is at the base of the mountain already unlike the Canyon chair starting halfway up the hill. I can see them getting it done before next weekend.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 2, 2013)

billski said:


> I wonder if having help filling and emptying the barrels would speed things up.


I don't think so because the barrels are filled after they are placed on the lift. Only so much room to fill two barrels while they're sitting on a double chair. That's assuming they're using two barrels as they did on the Canyon quad. A double chair might only require one barrel on each chair.


----------



## slatham (Jan 3, 2013)

Latest update from the Magic Web Site:


Thursday Update:



Magic is projected to re-open on Saturday January 5th.



The Red Chair repair is progressing well with the new brake part installed and the lift running. Friday will be the load test and inspection conducted by Magic and the state of Vermont lift inspector where barrels of water will be placed on the chairs and a battery of tests conducted. Once the Red Chair passes certification on Friday we will be open for skiers and riders on Saturday.  



On the Black chair, the lift inspector approved a process to be performed on each grip which will allow the chairs to swing freely (a requirement for the lift to pass inspection).  With approval of that process the work on that task has begun on every chair which will take some time but we are working to complete it quickly within a week for inspection.



Now that there is enough machine-made snow for the Beginner tow and Tube Park, the lift tracks can be groomed out today and angled properly for safety purposes so they can be inspected on Friday as well for opening this Saturday.



When we re-open we will have over 90% of our terrain open. Thank you for your patience and we hope to see you here this weekend.


----------



## billski (Jan 3, 2013)

steamboat1 said:


> They did a load test on the Canyon chair at K last month.


  Does it have an equivalent amount of uphill capacity (i.e., nr. of chairs)?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 3, 2013)

billski said:


> Does it have an equivalent amount of uphill capacity (i.e., nr. of chairs)?



I don't understand your question billski. The reason they had to load test the Canyon chair is because they put some kind of new counter balance system on the lift.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2013)

billski said:


> Does it have an equivalent amount of uphill capacity (i.e., nr. of chairs)?



No. The Canyon Quad and the Red are not very similar.  As Steamboat said the Canyon Quad took two barrels per chair so maybe a double only needs one barrel per chair.  

Just saw that the Red is up and that the load test is tomorrow.  Hopefully there are no other problems.


----------



## billski (Jan 3, 2013)

Going to Magic this Saturday, 1/5


----------



## steamboat1 (Jan 3, 2013)

billski said:


> Going to Magic this Saturday, 1/5



Will you be at Stowe next Wed.-Fri. for ski club appreciation days?

I'm planning on being there Wed. & Thurs.


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 3, 2013)

jrmagic said:


> For our season passholders, we will be providing a ticket voucher that can be used by any family member or friend you choose to give it to, plus a voucher for food at the Black Line Tavern as a thank you for being there with us through this time.



how do you feel about this?  i guess the reality is if you own a place and have a pass you LOVE magic so you* won't hate on them.  did you ski elsewhere, just hang out or head home early?


* don't mean you specifically


----------



## jrmagic (Jan 3, 2013)

gmcunni said:


> how do you feel about this? i guess the reality is if you own a place and have a pass you LOVE magic so you* won't hate on them. did you ski elsewhere, just hang out or head home early?
> 
> 
> * don't mean you specifically


I do have a place and love the mountain so you're right I won't hate on them but of course I was seriously dissapointed. I did get to ski a lot on the 27th-29th and I got one run on on the 30th during the brief period the lift was loaded. We loaded up the boys on the 31st and hit Mt. Ellen instead. I'm not sure what to make of the compensation though. Personally I would have preferred they give me a free drink in the bar and a sincere apology instead. Giving away that many free tickets just hurts the revenue stream. I think many other passholders would feel the same way. Obviously vouchers were in order for non pass holders though.


----------



## makimono (Jan 3, 2013)

gmcunni said:


> how do you feel about this?  i guess the reality is if you own a place and have a pass you LOVE magic so you* won't hate on them.  did you ski elsewhere, just hang out or head home early?
> 
> 
> * don't mean you specifically




I appreciate it...it's more than I expected, I would have been happy with a burger and a Heady Topper.

On Sunday I had just finished booting up and was heading to the lift when they called it done for the day (that was about 9:30). Ended up snowshoeing to the top :blink: and making one run and then heading home early. I'm really glad I brought the snowshoes and backpack as a contingency plan, haven't hiked for turns in a long while and I had fun doing it once my legs stfu and got to work.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2013)

jrmagic said:


> I'm not sure what to make of the compensation though. Personally I would have preferred they give me a free drink in the bar and a sincere apology instead. Giving away that many free tickets just hurts the revenue stream. I think many other passholders would feel the same way.



This was what I was thinking...co-op owners don't want to see the loss of revenue from the broken lift and then the throwing of good money after bad with these vouchers.  It's a tough place to be in.


----------



## skithetrees (Jan 3, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> This was what I was thinking...co-op owners don't want to see the loss of revenue from the broken lift and then the throwing of good money after bad with these vouchers.  It's a tough place to be in.



Agreed. A promise to have a contingency plan (i.e., the black chair) in the future, a beer and a burger would have made me more than happy. I do still disagree with respect to prioritizing snow making over reliable lifts. Magic just won't compete on man made snow anytime soon. Maybe some expansion is needed, but two reliable lifts that allow the mountain to service the marked increase of skiers it sees when the snow is good seems much more important to me. When the snow isn't good, at least for now, the fact remains people don't come to magic. That may change over time, but I think the mountain needs to be able to better reap when the times are good than eke something out when the snow is not there.


----------



## Marcos17 (Jan 3, 2013)

Anyone have any guess as to what the conditions will be like if Magic is open this Saturday? I realize they don't groom a lot of their trails so will it mainly be hard pack bumps, etc. on most, or will it still be pretty fresh considering they haven't opened since the 29th/30th? Thanks in advance for any input!


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> This was what I was thinking...co-op owners don't want to see the loss of revenue from the broken lift and then the throwing of good money after bad with these vouchers.  It's a tough place to be in.


Actually, there's no "loss of revenue" with the passing out of vouchers. Those people already paid for a 1 day lift ticket. Magic already got the "revenue"! 

The lift didn't run so they're entitled to get a refund, or at least a voucher which they may or may not use the rest of the season.

Granted, those who arrive AFTER the lift broke down wouldn't have bought a ticket at all. Those revenues ARE lost. But they don't get vouchers either, I assume.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2013)

abc said:


> Actually, there's no "loss of revenue" with the passing out of vouchers. Those people already paid for a 1 day lift ticket. Magic already got the "revenue"!
> 
> The lift didn't run so they're entitled to get a refund, or at least a voucher which they may or may not use the rest of the season.
> 
> Granted, those who arrive AFTER the lift broke down wouldn't have bought a ticket at all. Those revenues ARE lost. But they don't get vouchers either, I assume.



I believe that season passholders are getting a free ticket to give to someone else


----------



## slatham (Jan 4, 2013)

Yes, the discussion was around Magic giving season pass holders a voucher for a ticket, obviously for someone else to use. As a pass holder and shareholder I am not sure this was necessary  or wise. Like other comments above, I would be happy with a solid plan to get BOTH lifts running and a beer. However, I have to think that many pass holders, myself included, IF we use the voucher at all, will do so by giving it to someone who wouldn't normally ski Magic and thus introduce a new skier to the mountain and then let the mountain work its Magic (sorry...) to convert them to the faithful. If the vouchers go to someone who is already going to ski Magic, then it is a direct loss of revenue, something Magic cannot afford. 

Fingers crossed on today's test, and next weeks work on the Black grips....

THINK SNOW!


----------



## Nick (Jan 4, 2013)

jrmagic said:


> Giving away that many free tickets just hurts the revenue stream. .



That had crossed my mind as well. mt. ops basically has to run the mt two days for the price of one.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2013)

Hey any passholders want to get rid of their free tickets? :roll:


----------



## billski (Jan 4, 2013)

I'll be there on Saturday as long as we're operating.  Tickets purchase on the magic web site are fully refundable if not-op.


----------



## billski (Jan 4, 2013)

Bolton's Timberline Quad has been down since December 30th.  ETA on fix is Jan 12th.


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2013)

slatham said:


> Yes, the discussion was around Magic giving season pass holders a voucher for a ticket, obviously for someone else to use.


Sorry, my bad for not picking up on that.



> As a pass holder and shareholder I am not sure this was necessary  or  wise. Like other comments above, I would be happy with a solid plan to  get BOTH lifts running and a beer. However, I have to think that many  pass holders, myself included, IF we use the voucher at all, will do so  by giving it to someone who wouldn't normally ski Magic and thus  introduce a new skier to the mountain and then let the mountain work its  Magic (sorry...) to convert them to the faithful. If the vouchers go to  someone who is already going to ski Magic, then it is a direct loss of  revenue, something Magic cannot afford.


Most other mountains don't give out vouchers to pass holders when a lift or two broke down. So at first glance it appears that's "giving away revenue" that Magic couldn't afford. 

On the other hand, Magic has a more limited operation than its neighbors. When both lifts are down, the whole mountain shuts down on a perfectly good day, holiday weekend not withstanding. Further more, the lift stoppage was due to poor maintenance rather than say, wind hold. That being the difference. 

And due to the lack of snowmaking, such good skiing days may not be repeated for a while. So how many of those vouchers will get used? There's but only one more "family skiing" period left, the President's Day week. If a pass holder invites his/her friends to use the voucher, it's likely they end up buying additional lift tickets on top of the freebee! So my guess of the "free" voucher might just bring in as much ADDITIONAL paying customer as they lost in redeeming of the vouchers.  

And the bottom line being, missing those 2 very busy holiday weekend day alone must have cost Magic a HUGE loss of revenue in and of itself! Cost of additional voucher probably doesn't matter either way.


----------



## billski (Jan 4, 2013)

Some creative marketing could help the infrequent or newbie skier.  Several areas (Stratton comes to mind), offer a Ski Sunday, get Monday free type of program.  Maybe you wouldn't use it, but "free" certainly attracts attention.

For pass holders, how about a special day opening (T, W, R) (Stowe did that early in the season) or special privs, like first half hour before lifts officially open for pass holders only?  There is not a lot of incremental cost in the later, but the former would be rather costly.  Setting precedent is the only other problem I would see.


----------



## abc (Jan 4, 2013)

billski said:


> special privs, like first half hour before lifts officially open for pass holders only?


That's a big draw on popular (crowded) mountains. Not sure it makes that big of a difference in a niche mountain like Magic. It's rarely crowded at opening time...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2013)

slatham said:


> Yes, the discussion was around Magic giving season pass holders a voucher for a ticket, obviously for someone else to use. As a pass holder and shareholder I am not sure this was necessary or wise. Like other comments above, I would be happy with a solid plan to get BOTH lifts running and a beer. However, I have to think that many pass holders, myself included, IF we use the voucher at all, will do so by giving it to someone who wouldn't normally ski Magic and thus introduce a new skier to the mountain and then let the mountain work its Magic (sorry...) to convert them to the faithful. If the vouchers go to someone who is already going to ski Magic, then it is a direct loss of revenue, something Magic cannot afford.
> 
> Fingers crossed on today's test, and next weeks work on the Black grips....
> 
> THINK SNOW!



I thought that those who bought a day ticket were given a voucher and passholders were given a food voucher? Is that not the case? If they are giving free day tickets to season passholders, than that is a different story and not a good idea at all. As someone else here said the standard MO in the business is if a lift breaks down, and folks are caught on it or really disadvantaged, you give them a free coffee or hot cocoa. And, as said, if someone bought a ticket and the mountain can't deliver due to, say, a power outage, then a voucher is completely fine and a must for good customer service. Both, however, cost the mountain revenue. 

No resort wants to be giving away things for free because it cuts revenue and devalues the full price product that others pay for, which leads me to address....



billski said:


> Some creative marketing could help the infrequent or newbie skier. Several areas (Stratton comes to mind), offer a Ski Sunday, get Monday free type of program. Maybe you wouldn't use it, but "free" certainly attracts attention.



The one season I was not a passholder I became a fan of promos and everyone loves a bargain. But after talking to folks in the business, and some discussions in here, I have to disagree that constantly offering "free" or heavily discounted promotions is a good idea. 

Set aside the whole bargain hunting thing for a minute and look at it from the mountain's perspective. In the summer and fall they offered season passes (and other mountains offer pre-buy programs). Those folks committed to the mountain and essentially paid for the privilege of skiing as many days as the resort is open. Now few, if anyone, skis the entire season. Most folks are going to ski a certain number of days, and the mountain knows that and sets the pass price accordingly. Say they figure that folks, on average, will ski ten days and paid $500 per pass. That is $50 per day that these folks have committed. 

The typical business model used season passes as the revenue to get the snowmaking down and the mountain open. Day tickets were what helped cover other expenses and contributed, in a good season, to a profit. Those folks, of course, pay more for their tickets. 

However, we all know that surprisingly not many pay the full window price. Resorts offer promos, lodging packages, etc. So, considering the discounts they offer and other promos, they have a set rack rate that they can generally count on for these tickets. 

I'm getting way to complicated, so I'm going to cut to the chase. Yeah, having free days and other deep discounts makes guys like Billski happy, but there are a lot of serious downsides for a resort. First, you condition folks to always expect deep discounts and they will never buy the full window price, which is what you really want. Why the hell would I put down $59 for a Magic ticket if I know that they are running lots of discounts that I could easily find? I like ski areas, but I too have to be smart with my money. So now you have less daytrippers coming and paying the full rate. This results in less revenue, and a less loyal customer base because they're going to take discounts for granted and just go to the cheapest place. 

Additionally, remember all those passholders I mentioned? Well, when they see these discounts and free promos, they are going to feel cheated because their pass is now worth less to them. Next season a portion of them will say "screw the pass, I'm going to wait for the day discounts." So that revenue is gone. It's a slippery slope. 

Essentially the mountain has a fine line to walk in balancing out these interests and in trying to make a set amount per skier day so as not to encourage exteme bargain hunting, not to piss off passholders, and to entice regular folks to pay that window price. 

Obviously a promo here and there is great for good will and to get folks to come and check the place out, but you can't condition them to always expect a free or really cheap day because they will not come otherwise and you won't have enough money to turn the lifts. 

Free is great for the skier, but not for the mountain. Lots of places have learned this...my home mountain, Burke, being one of them.  And a place like Magic, which, let's face it is really struggling, has to be very careful not to give away the store.


----------



## soposkier (Jan 4, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> I thought that those who bought a day ticket were given a voucher and passholders were given a food voucher? Is that not the case? If they are giving free day tickets to season passholders, than that is a different story and not a good idea at all. As someone else here said the standard MO in the business is if a lift breaks down, and folks are caught on it or really disadvantaged, you give them a free coffee or hot cocoa. And, as said, if someone bought a ticket and the mountain can't deliver due to, say, a power outage, then a voucher is completely fine and a must for good customer service. Both, however, cost the mountain revenue.
> 
> No resort wants to be giving away things for free because it cuts revenue and devalues the full price product that others pay for, which leads me to address....
> 
> ...



Not exclusively Magic, but related to this discussion, does anyone know how much the mountain gets from a liftopia purchase.  Say I buy a ticket to Magic for 49.99, how much is the mountain actually getting?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2013)

soposkier said:


> Not exclusively Magic, but related to this discussion, does anyone know how much the mountain gets from a liftopia purchase. Say I buy a ticket to Magic for 49.99, how much is the mountain actually getting?



A long time ago we had someone discussing this from the industry and, surprisingly, the average amount per day ticket that the needed to get was very low.  In this case, I'd imagine that Magic probably gets $35 after Liftopia takes its cut.


----------



## billski (Jan 4, 2013)

soposkier said:


> Not exclusively Magic, but related to this discussion, does anyone know how much the mountain gets from a liftopia purchase.  Say I buy a ticket to Magic for 49.99, how much is the mountain actually getting?


  Magic marketing in particular would rather have you buy direct from their web site so they don't incur the Liftopia charge.  

TBD makes some great notice.  I'm in business too, but skiing is expensive all around.  However, many of the deals I find are really only to the advantage of the single or multi day skier.  When I try to outfit my family of five for a day trip, it's hard to make it work - I'm fine with that.  I also drink their drinks, eat their hamburgers.  I do buy equipment, albeit small stuff like broken poles.  I also have been known to pay $89 for a Stowe ticket in a pinch.

Most all the areas are now directly in the "bargain" game too.  But they do limit options; most exclude Saturdays.  Also demand management via Liftopia are working  to increase what would be a variable skier count vs. fixed costs.  Most resorts also limit the quantity of tickets available for a specific day, or may pull them all together.   The airlines do this too on a higher and more sophisticated system.

I work hard to bring more peeps to places like Magic.  Of course I want them to succeed, which means of course profits.  I'm sure you also know I find a bunch of discounts I never bring to an open forum such as this.  Other events I'm engaged in like the Point and the River programs benefit three:  The skier (a lower price on a select one day), the resort (more advertising, more exposure, the hope for more return visits), the radio station (more ad revenue).  

But to the chase, I'm with you all the way Trailboss - it is a fine line.  I allude to that in my remark about precedent setting.


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2013)

Actually Magic's website is linked to Liftopia


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2013)

Discounts and freebies only work for the resort if a skier comes back and pays the window rate or gets a pass. Otherwise it's break even or a loss. How often do you do that, Bill?

And it's nothing personal, just a rhetorical question that suggests why Magic is probably not going to go the free/discount route.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Jan 4, 2013)

billski said:


> Some creative marketing could help the infrequent or newbie skier.  Several areas (Stratton comes to mind), offer a Ski Sunday, get Monday free type of program.  Maybe you wouldn't use it, but "free" certainly attracts attention.
> 
> For pass holders, how about a special day opening (T, W, R)



Billski, what day begins with R? Russian Cosmonaut Day?:smile: 

I think the word "free" has almost lost all meaning, especially to me. I've seen it so much in my life that the fact that something is actually "free" doesn't register with me, or if it does, I automatically assume there is a catch like when you get a "free" cell phone with "only" a 2 year contract.

If Magic had a deal where the promotion being mentioned only costs like .07 cents or something, I would be much more likely to notice it.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2013)

**Breaking News**

Magic is reporting on their FB page that the Red Chair passed and will open tomorrow.  

Carry on....


----------



## Nick (Jan 4, 2013)

woo-hoo!

PS: Congrats on 18k posts! Crazy!


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 4, 2013)

Nick said:


> woo-hoo!
> 
> PS: Congrats on 18k posts! Crazy!



Thank you, thank you.  So many people to thank.....


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2013)

abc said:


> Actually, there's no "loss of revenue" with the passing out of vouchers. Those people already paid for a 1 day lift ticket. Magic already got the "revenue"!


That is not correct. If a skier bought a ticket on the break down day and then returned and bought another ticket, they would have paid twice. Now, if a skier got a voucher, they would show up to Magic twice but only pay once. Granted, not every skier there would have gone back and paid instead of using a voucher. But you can also count any skier that never returns to Magic as lots revenue as well, that voucher does Magic no good if it never gets used. There is not lost day ticket revenue on the day the lift broke down but any skier returning for another day and not paying for another day ticket is 100% lost revenue.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2013)

billski said:


> Bolton's Timberline Quad has been down since December 30th.  ETA on fix is Jan 12th.


Wasn't it down last season as well?


----------



## legalskier (Jan 4, 2013)

Yep- I just received an email confirming Red is up and running:

_Magic Faithful, _
_The Red Chair passed state inspection and load testing today (30,000 pounds of water barrels all the way up the lift line!). It will be ready for you at 8:30am Saturday....
Finally, many thanks to the hard work of *Travis, Terence and crew*. More to do but they've put in many long hours to get us back going.

_Great job!


----------



## bdfreetuna (Jan 4, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> That is not correct. If a skier bought a ticket on the break down day and then returned and bought another ticket, they would have paid twice. Now, if a skier got a voucher, they would show up to Magic twice but only pay once. Granted, not every skier there would have gone back and paid instead of using a voucher. But you can also count any skier that never returns to Magic as lots revenue as well, that voucher does Magic no good if it never gets used. There is not lost day ticket revenue on the day the lift broke down but any skier returning for another day and not paying for another day ticket is 100% lost revenue.



If somebody goes the day the lift breaks down, doesn't get a voucher, and decides "screw Magic I'm never coming back here".. and then they go tell their friends what a beat situation and wack operation they're running up there... that's a lot more lost revenue.

Vouchers are a good business move and the decent thing to do under those circumstances. After only skiing 2 hours and getting stuck on the lift for 45+ minutes, I was sort of expecting a voucher.

But Magic made no fuss about it, the vouchers were handed out instantly and freely. The staff remained very welcoming even after it was obvious the situation was getting kind of bad for them. I see it as they did the right thing, but went about it in an above and beyond manner.

Next time I go back to Magic I'll use my voucher. But I will be back plenty more times after that partially due to their awesome terrain but also partially due to their upstanding showmanship regarding these events.

In fact I may be skiing there tomorrow if I can convince my old man to give it a shot. He wants to go to Pico instead. We shall see..


----------



## drjeff (Jan 5, 2013)

riverc0il said:


> That is not correct. If a skier bought a ticket on the break down day and then returned and bought another ticket, they would have paid twice. Now, if a skier got a voucher, they would show up to Magic twice but only pay once. Granted, not every skier there would have gone back and paid instead of using a voucher. But you can also count any skier that never returns to Magic as lots revenue as well, that voucher does Magic no good if it never gets used. There is not lost day ticket revenue on the day the lift broke down but any skier returning for another day and not paying for another day ticket is 100% lost revenue.



Agree!

Magic had to pay their staff for 2 days for the voucher crowd. And presumably LOST some food and beverage revenue from the day that the voucher was issued (i'm guessing that when the voucher crowd returns - even those "free" vouchers given to season pass holders to give to friends, that the net effect won't be any increase in F&B revenue.  At best it's a break even, net revenue neutral situation


----------



## soposkier (Jan 5, 2013)

drjeff said:


> Agree!
> 
> Magic had to pay their staff for 2 days for the voucher crowd. And presumably LOST some food and beverage revenue from the day that the voucher was issued (i'm guessing that when the voucher crowd returns - even those "free" vouchers given to season pass holders to give to friends, that the net effect won't be any increase in F&B revenue.  At best it's a break even, net revenue neutral situation



I think I spent more money at the bar last sunday than I would of if I were skiing all day, although Im sure that is not the norm.  The make your own bloody mary bar is great.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jan 5, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> If somebody goes the day the lift breaks down, doesn't get a voucher, and decides "screw Magic I'm never coming back here".. and then they go tell their friends what a beat situation and wack operation they're running up there... that's a lot more lost revenue.



Amen.  That's Business101.  If you F-up, you best make-it-up. 

 Sounds like in this instance Magic understood that.


----------



## Nick (Jan 6, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Amen.  That's Business101.  If you F-up, you best make-it-up.
> 
> Sounds like in this instance Magic understood that.



that's fair enough as well. I think many of us are in a different boat than the average joe that drives up to the mountain to ski for the day. Joe and his wife and 2 kids probably won't be so forgiving when they have to repack the entire car and trek somewhere else.


----------



## jaytrem (Jan 6, 2013)

bdfreetuna said:


> If somebody goes the day the lift breaks down, doesn't get a voucher, and decides "screw Magic I'm never coming back here".. and then they go tell their friends what a beat situation and wack operation they're running up there... that's a lot more lost revenue.



That's how I feel about Red River NM.  After a 1.5 hour lift ride the 2nd run of the day, my in-laws just wanted to trade in their tickets to come back another day.  No dice, though everybody did get a free lunch.  The GM actually had the nerve to say they should have started the day earlier since the chair ran fine for the first two hours.  My sister-in-law had a 3 month old so couldn't get out too early, or they would have.  The tickets even had a time stamp on them, so there was no way they were lying about when they started the day.  Terrible customer service.  So now any chance I get I steer people away from Red River (like now).  And my in-laws who live in NM no doubt do the same thing.  At this point I'm sure we cost them way more than the two vouchers.  

Anyway, my opinon, Magic did the smart thing.  They couldn't provide a good day of skiing, so they provided the best customer service possible.  Hopefully the news of that part will spread more than the chair breakdown stuff.


----------



## o3jeff (Jan 6, 2013)

What would you guys have done if they only gave you a coupon for a free hot cocoa?


----------



## abc (Jan 6, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> Amen. That's Business101. If you F-up, you best make-it-up.
> 
> Sounds like in this instance Magic understood that.


At least the current Magic management understood, that is. 

But clearly many others (perhaps even shareholder) don't. They don't understand the concept of penny wise and dime foolish. Magic is a co-op. Its operation will reflex the value standard of its shareholders...


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

abc said:


> At least the current Magic management understood, that is.
> 
> But clearly many others (perhaps even shareholder) don't. They don't understand the concept of penny wise and dime foolish. Magic is a co-op. Its operation will reflex the value standard of its shareholders...



I think that is an oversimplification of the discussion thus far.  

The real criticism focused on the lack of maintenance or preparedness and the fact that they got into the situation in the first place.  It happened at the worst possible time--during one of three periods of the season when you have to maximize your revenue.  That money is not coming back. 

A brake failure is a pretty significant problem and one that I'd imagine would be pretty easy to spot coming down the pike.  The mountain was in a unique position to have a second summit lift, but that was not ready or even close.

The concern about vouchers is only to do with passholders.  I don't think that folks dispute giving the guy who bought a day ticket and couldn't ski a comp.  But again the focus was on being in a place where that was not necessary.


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 6, 2013)

Can we lock this thread now that Red is running? It has turned into quite a shit-show. Nothing to see here, move along people...


----------



## mlkrgr (Jan 6, 2013)

Just that the management should spare no expense to get all lifts functioning in a reasonably reliable manner. If the red chair breaks down, they can rely on the black chair and vice versa, and operate both during peak business periods.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Can we lock this thread now that Red is running? It has turned into quite a shit-show. Nothing to see here, move along people...



Shit show?  I don't think so.  There has been a pretty good and serious discussion I think.  And we're always of the mindset to let things run their course.  In that regard you're right in that this is largely moot now.


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 6, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Shit show?  I don't think so.  There has been a pretty good and serious discussion I think.  And we're always of the mindset to let things run their course.  In that regard you're right in that this is largely moot now.



Yeah guy "shit show" 

If you want to play keep playing ski area management sim start another thread. To much negativity here.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Yeah guy "shit show"
> 
> If you want to play keep playing ski area management sim start another thread. To much negativity here.



As we like to say nobody is forcing you to read this or post in this thread.


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 6, 2013)

Who is this "we" you speak of boss?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Who is this "we" you speak of boss?



The other mods and Nick.

It's also kind of funny that you complain of negativity while trying to pick a fight.  Sorry you don't agree with everything that was said in here but not everyone is going to agree or be happy.


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 6, 2013)

who is trying to pick a fight buddy? I simply made the observation that this thread had been steered away from what the original title had intended IMHO


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> who is trying to pick a fight buddy? I simply made the observation that this thread had been steered away from what the original title had intended IMHO



To get back to what you had originally said, no, I don't think we need to lock this thread because it has been a good and frank discussion.  I know you don't agree with what folks have said and that's fine.  If we locked every thread that someone disagreed with then we'd have no discussion.  Feel free to talk about your POV on the topic.  I'll leave it at that.


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 6, 2013)

Simply put, I don't think this thread is the place to say "this is what I would do..." Magic is a special place and it needs all the love it can get. This thread was originally about the Red chair being down. Now that the situation has improved lets move on. Can't we all just get along?


----------



## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2013)

The immediate situation has improved but the partial cause has not as noted.


----------



## riverc0il (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Simply put, I don't think this thread is the place to say "this is what I would do..." Magic is a special place and it needs all the love it can get. This thread was originally about the Red chair being down. Now that the situation has improved lets move on. Can't we all just get along?


Dictating which threads get locked based on a single user's preferences is not appropriate. What if another user requested another thread get locked? There would be no end to thread locking, most especially if every thread got locked when the discussion progressed beyond the exact and specific topic in the title. Extend your perspective to every other thread in this forum and you can see where this would lead. I respect your perspective of not wanting a thread that is "negative" to Magic's PR. But everyone here, even while being tough with the love, is fully behind Magic. Your diligence in shooting down a moderator's response only keeps this thread at the top of the forum and invites others (case in point) to continue to weigh in. If you want this thread to die, stop posting.


----------



## skithetrees (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> Simply put, I don't think this thread is the place to say "this is what I would do..." Magic is a special place and it needs all the love it can get. This thread was originally about the Red chair being down. Now that the situation has improved lets move on. Can't we all just get along?



I am not sure I see anywhere in here where people aren't getting along.  The only place I ever saw that in relation to this situation was on Magic's facebook page where anyone who expressed a critical opinion was treated rather harshly.  This thread is merely a thoughtful discussion of the situation and possible ways to move forward.  At least some of the people here are shareholders - who I do believe have a right to engage in "ski area management" as you put it.  However, I didn't realize only owners/shareholders could express an opinion.

With all due respect, your comment of "let's move on" epitomizes part of my concerns with the mountain - that is, repeating the same mistakes.  Sure lifts break down, but Magic has a lift, often the only lift, go down almost every year it seems during a holiday season.  There needs to be a back up plan or better maintenance schedule in place to prevent this.  To suggest "let's just move on" from a brake failure is reckless at best.  Remember this video ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8rXiN_Oys4&playnext=1&list=PLD95D9102E465C54C or http://www.gadling.com/2010/01/13/10-hilarious-and-painful-and-frightening-ski-lift-videos/

Now, Magic was a long way from this, but this attitude of "things happen" is callous and I think needs to be rightfully called out.  I am trying to express an opinion that, honestly, given the reaction of yourself here and other (likely) Magic shareholders on facebook, I would be nervous to express at a shareholder meeting.  If it instigates a reasoned and calm discussion, then maybe we can move forward and do something about it.  

I will close, as I always have, by stating that Magic is a fantastic, safe, and wonderful family *and* expert mountain.  I highly encourage everyone to visit and ski - nobody ever comes away disappointed.  My comments are merely directed towards ensuring that Magic has a safe, thriving, and enduring future.


----------



## twinplanx (Jan 6, 2013)

The only stake I have in Magic is wanting it to simply succeed and fill the niche market. I am not a Shareholder, I have only skied there once. I did not really expect this thread to get locked based solely on my opinion. I will repeat my earlier statement that I do feel this is the appropriate place to play armchair ski area manager. The "can't we all just get along" is a Rodney King quote meant in a humorous manner. I guess you could not pick up my sarcastic tone thru the interwebs... Again, the Red chair is operational. My suggestion, if you boys would like to play ski area manager, is to START ANOTHER THREAD.


----------



## Nick (Jan 6, 2013)

twinplanx said:


> who is trying to pick a fight buddy? I simply made the observation that this thread had been steered away from what the original title had intended IMHO



No reason to lock it, the lift runs again and this particular thread will die a slow death replaced by more specific magic threads 

PS... I think this board is pretty pro magic. I think its pretty much a group hug in here.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Jan 6, 2013)

If this happened with any other resort other than MRG, that resort would have been crucified. Magic, you got off pretty easy from your loyal fanbase but I think it's safe to say you've used up most of your goodwill on this one. I hope someone from Magic takes the time to read this, and invests in getting the black chair spinning in case this happens again. Think snow! 

Congrats on 9k Nick


----------



## ScottySkis (Jan 7, 2013)

Sent from my ADR6410LVW using Tapatalk 2

Chairs break down ever year, is sad that it happens during the $$$ time but it still happens.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Jan 7, 2013)

As George Santayana once said, "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it,"

On a positive note, Magic skied fantastic on Sunday. No lines, no lift issues, and plenty of snow to go around. They were even setting up a ton of hoses for snowmaking (I'm guessing last night) on Show Off and Wizard I believe.


----------



## reefer (Jan 21, 2013)

Thank God for the snowmaking investment. It would be sad to have two lifts running and no snow....................
MLK weekend - Magic top to bottom, MRG practice slope.............................


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 21, 2013)

Good call....even w/o West side terrain right now Magic has some fun blue cruising runs off the East Side.
I do wonder why they don't have Wizard open T2B though? They made snow over there so I'd think just running the groomer up and down once would be sufficient to open it.
Perhaps so as not to encourage anyne from ducking ropes on the steeper terrain?


----------



## skithetrees (Jan 21, 2013)

Disagree as the red chair again had problems this weekend ....  Not as severe, but again some downtime on a holiday weekend.

Also, does Alpinezone have a collective magic share?  I thought I had seen some reference to this a while back?


----------



## makimono (Jan 21, 2013)

skithetrees said:


> Disagree as the red chair again had problems this weekend ....  Not as severe, but again some downtime on a holiday weekend.
> 
> Also, does Alpinezone have a collective magic share?  I thought I had seen some reference to this a while back?



Was Black offline? Last I read it was going to be re-tested on Friday.

There were a few attempts at coordinating an AZ Magic share but it never happened. There are several Magic shareholders that are active on AZ though.


----------



## skithetrees (Jan 21, 2013)

Black is still not running but should be up soon.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## xwhaler (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm pretty sure there is an AlpineZone share. I recall seeing it last year when the sign first went up by the Red Chair.
Maybe Nick bought it directly?


----------



## drjeff (Jan 22, 2013)

skithetrees said:


> Disagree as the red chair again had problems this weekend .... Not as severe, but again some downtime on a holiday weekend.
> 
> Also, does Alpinezone have a collective magic share? I thought I had seen some reference to this a while back?



My daughter had a race at Stratton yesterday, and Magic was represented in the race too.  I got talking too one of the Magic racer's Dad's as we were standing around the start area trying to both keep warm and also help keep track of the athlete's from our respective "home" mountains various ski coats and snowpants that they were taking off before their runs, and when I asked about what happened Saturday, his reply was basically "just a minor inconvience this time, and it was a nice day for a little hiking!"


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 22, 2013)

xwhaler said:


> I'm pretty sure there is an AlpineZone share. I recall seeing it last year when the sign first went up by the Red Chair.
> Maybe Nick bought it directly?



yeah, there was a picture here over the summer of the sign with all the shareholder names, AZ was on it.


----------



## makimono (Jan 22, 2013)

gmcunni said:


> yeah, there was a picture here over the summer of the sign with all the shareholder names, AZ was on it.



That was for a Red Chair not an AZ Share


----------



## gmcunni (Jan 22, 2013)

makimono said:


> That was for a Red Chair not an AZ Share



ah, my bad, thanks.


----------

