# Cranmore Plans $50 Million Base Expansion, Condo Development



## Edd (Feb 10, 2016)

Their base lodge is certainly in need of replacement. Although you could say that about many base lodges. Big changes. 

http://www.ropeways.net/rn/index.php?i=60&wert=1&news=5132&titel=Cranmore%20Plans%20$50%20Million%20Base%20Expansion,%20Condo%20Development

Edit: link doesn't seem to work. Here's the article. 

Cranmore Resort has announced plans for a $50 million condominium and base area redevelopment that will provide ski–in, ski–out ownership at the base of Cranmore and in the heart of North Conway, one of America’s most dynamic ski towns.

When the Fairbank Group acquired Cranmore in the summer of 2010, “the bones of the mountain were terrific, but it needed a hug,” CEO Tyler Fairbank told SnoCountry.com. “So we put together a phased plan to try to figure out where condominium development would fit in.”

The Fairbank Group has spent $10 million to modernize the resort, including four new lifts, a top-shelf kids center, re-clad buildings, and year-round activities like a mountain coaster and giant swing. “We created a resort with non-skiing capabilities on a year-round basis,” Fairbank told us.
Realizing that some of the buildings are reaching the end of their usable life, the owners are using the same model as they have successfully followed at Massachusetts’s Jiminy Peak to redevelop the base area using condo sales.

In this model, the first floor of a building is used as commercial space for all the skier amenities you’d expect at a first-class resort. The upper floors offer slopeside access to all those amenities and afford skiers the opportunity to leave their car parked for the entire weekend.

“For the local weekend visitor or for anyone who spends time at the resort, the day lodge experience will be so much better in the future, with nice restaurants and ski shops,” Cranmore’s General Manager Ben Wilcox told us. It will also afford the opportunity to expand summer offerings, such as air-conditioned weddings.

Funds from the condominium sales make the commercial space possible. Fairbank expects to offer nearly 50,000 square feet of new commercial space by completion of the project.

“One of the things that made Cranmore so attractive to us is downtown North Conway. The ski village is a really vibrant community, with hotels, restaurants, and shopping, it really is a mecca up there,” Fairbank said.

Sales of the Kearsarge Brook condos began a month ago, and Fairbank anticipates that they will be able to break ground this spring, but construction won’t begin until 14 of the 37-unit first building are sold. “We want to make sure there is demand in the market, not only for funding the project, but to let the consumer know there is viability in their investment.”

Wilcox added that they are sweetening the pot for the first owners, with five years of skiing for a family of four for the first 14 buyers.

Ultimately, the base area of the resort will be fully replaced, but it will be a six to 10 year phased development, rebuilding sections while using the resort.


----------



## Edd (Feb 10, 2016)

Rendering of the redeveloped base area.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

Should be a real hit; especially being so close to downtown N. Conway.  Having that added critical mass of people right there should be good for all of the village businesses.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 10, 2016)

Jiminy Peak north.

:rant:

I ski Jiminy once or twice a year nowadays.  Haven't skied there yet this year, but I do check the snow report often.  Midweek they've been running the six pack, the two beginner lifts, and the carpet lift.  No Widow White's and no Grand Slam.  If you're going to shut down 1/3 of your parent mountain by not running Widow's, or cause hotel-goers to be trapped in the lower basin of the mountain by not running Grand Slam... you should NOT be investing in the mountain that can't even compete with the other players in the area (I'll get into this later in my rant).  The Summit Triple hasn't run regularly in years, even on the busiest Saturday's.  No more snowmaking on Upper Exhibition, a real loss considering that was one of two trails they didn't groom (the other one being natural snow only as well).  Laughably expensive tickets.  No decent deals since 2012 or so.  Not gonna get my business.  

As for implementing this Village idea at Cranmore... it won't work like it did at Jiminy.  Jiminy's true village is something unique for Massachusetts and can't be found south of Stratton.  The mountain's location on route 22 makes it great for Westchester County to drive to on the weekends.  Lot's of money flowing and no competition.  No hotels nearby outside of dirty Pittsfield.  Cranmore is a completely different animal.  First... you can't compete with North Conway.  No need for slopeside hotels and condos when you have the quintessential New England ski town at the foot of the mountain... and if you were looking for slopeside condos Attitash has filled that very limited market.  

:rant:

Again, don't ski Jiminy much... never skied Cranmore and probably never will... but stupidity in the ski industry pisses me off. 

This is almost as bad as Catamount's slopeside hotel/timeshare thingy...almost at bad :angry:


----------



## ss20 (Feb 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Should be a real hit; especially being so close to downtown N. Conway.  Having that added critical mass of people right there should be good for all of the village businesses.



People who like North Conway will stay in North Conway... not Cranmore.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

I couldn't disagree with you more.  The proximity to North Conway Village is what makes this work.  It's not competing with the village of North Conway, it's an extension of that village to the mountain.  North Conway village has one of the highest concentrations of tourists of any mountain village in all of New England.  Stratton is an absolute ghost town in the summer.  Why?  Too far from Manchester. 

There's nothing ever stupid about building real estate people want to buy.  I bet Cranmore makes bank on this project and the increased critical mass of people only encourages more development in N. Conway village.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 10, 2016)

ss20 said:


> People who like North Conway will stay in North Conway... not Cranmore.



This is contradictory. Cranmore is well within North Conway. Like a mile from downtown. Most of the hotels are further from downtown than the mountain.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

ss20 said:


> People who like North Conway will stay in North Conway... not Cranmore.



Have you ever been there?  It's a fifteen minute walk from where that base development is planned to the center of North Conway Village.  For all intents and purposes, Cranmore is IN North Conway Village.   Now someone gets to stay in a brand new condo that they can step right outside the door to a lift or take a short walk into town.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more.  The proximity to North Conway Village is what makes this work.  It's not competing with the village of North Conway, it's an extension of that village to the mountain.  North Conway village has one of the highest concentrations of tourists of any mountain village in all of New England.  Stratton is an absolute ghost town in the summer.  Why?  Too far from Manchester.
> 
> There's nothing ever stupid about building real estate people want to buy.  I bet Cranmore makes bank on this project and the increased critical mass of people only encourages more development in N. Conway village.



Perhaps.  It works at Okemo with Ludlow as the village and the massive condos at the mountain.  

Stowe is a winter/summer village and the mountain's condos are few and far between, and priced in a niche market.  One example where mountain can't compete with town, imo.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Have you ever been there?  It's a fifteen minute walk from where that base development is planned to the center of North Conway Village.  For all intents and purposes, Cranmore is IN North Conway Village.   Now someone gets to stay in a brand new condo that they can step right outside the door to a lift or take a short walk into town.



Bingo.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 10, 2016)

ss20 said:


> Perhaps.  It works at Okemo with Ludlow as the village and the massive condos at the mountain.
> 
> Stowe is a winter/summer village and the mountain's condos are few and far between, and priced in a niche market.  One example where mountain can't compete with town, imo.



Okemo and their residential developments are MUCH further away from the town of Ludlow.   My family had a home in Ludlow for 15 years.  I can tell you that not once during that time did we walk from town up to mountain or know anyone who lived slope side walk down that big ass hill to the village.  Totally different set up than Cranmore and North Conway.

Regarding Stowe; well I lived there for the better part of ten years, so I know a little bit about Stowe too.  The village and hotel at Stowe has done a number of the local businesses in town.  Hotels like Top Notch and Stoweflake don't have as high of occupancy rates today as they did pre Spruce Peak development.  There are actually fewer restaurants in town today than there were 20 years ago when I first moved there.  I know many local business people who did better prior to Spruce peak.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 10, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Okemo and their residential developments are MUCH further away from the town of Ludlow.   My family had a home in Ludlow for 15 years.  I can tell you that not once during that time did we walk from town up to mountain or know anyone who lived slope side walk down that big ass hill to the village.  Totally different set up than Cranmore and North Conway.
> 
> Regarding Stowe; well I lived there for the better part of ten years, so I know a little bit about Stowe too.  The village and hotel at Stowe has done a number of the local businesses in town.  Hotels like Top Notch and Stoweflake don't have as high of occupancy rates today as they did pre Spruce Peak development.  There are actually fewer restaurants in town today than there were 20 years ago when I first moved there.  I know many local business people who did better prior to Spruce peak.



Both of those towns are an order of magnitude smaller than North Conway, and a lot further from the mountain. I have no doubt Cranmore will do well with this development. They'll be one of the closest developments to downtown.


----------



## ss20 (Feb 10, 2016)

Alright, alright... if I admit I'm wrong will my crucifixion stop?


----------



## prsboogie (Feb 10, 2016)

But who is forking over 500k to ski Cranmore more then 2-3 times a year? It has a few interesting trails and I'm sure on a good dump year it would be fun in the trees but...


----------



## Edd (Feb 10, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> But who is forking over 500k to ski Cranmore more then 2-3 times a year? It has a few interesting trails and I'm sure on a good dump year it would be fun in the trees but...



I suspect many of these units will be rented out by owners much of the time.


----------



## prsboogie (Feb 10, 2016)

Edd said:


> I suspect many of these units will be rented out by owners much of the time.



Sure they will be but thats a big nut to cover with inconsistent additional income. Guess I'm just not a risk taker.


----------



## yeggous (Feb 10, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> Sure they will be but thats a big nut to cover with inconsistent additional income. Guess I'm just not a risk taker.



Once again you're looking in the wrong direction. North Conway is much, much busier in summer than winter. That is where the money is.


----------



## prsboogie (Feb 10, 2016)

yeggous said:


> Once again you're looking in the wrong direction. North Conway is much, much busier in summer than winter. That is where the money is.



Yes there is this


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 10, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> But who is forking over 500k to ski Cranmore more then 2-3 times a year? It has a few interesting trails and I'm sure on a good dump year it would be fun in the trees but...



The same type of people who fork over lots of money for a condo at Bretton Woods. I think that this project will do VERY well.


----------



## Jully (Feb 11, 2016)

Yeah Cranmore has a pretty sizable community surrounding it from both locals and individuals who own condos in N. Conway to mostly ski Cranmore in the winter (half of my aunt's condo development has season passes to Cranmore). They might have bought the condo mostly for summer use, but definitely still use it in the winter months.

This will make bank, I won't be happy about it, but it'll make bank.


----------



## Newpylong (Feb 11, 2016)

Edd said:


> Rendering of the redeveloped base area.
> 
> View attachment 18975



Jiminy Peak 2.0


----------



## dlague (Feb 11, 2016)

prsboogie said:


> But who is forking over 500k to ski Cranmore more then 2-3 times a year? It has a few interesting trails and I'm sure on a good dump year it would be fun in the trees but...



I do not find anything compelling at Cranmore.  I think it fits well in the beginner / intermediate market.  However,  Cranmore's location is darn near perfect and much better than Stowe or Okemo.  I would not consider something like that but families with young children and money to blow might.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## yeggous (Feb 11, 2016)

dlague said:


> I do not find anything compelling at Cranmore.  I think it fits well in the beginner / intermediate market.  However,  Cranmore's location is darn near perfect and much better than Stowe or Okemo.  I would not consider something like that but families with young children and money to blow might.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



The nice part about Cranmore for the advanced skier is powder for days. The trees melt before they get tracked out.

It is definitely the family oriented mountain in the valley though. And it does have a strong local following, especially with their racing. Many weekends they have two races going at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dlague (Feb 11, 2016)

It seems to be well run and reminds me of a bigger Pats Peak.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2016)

For a day I can find interesting things there. A few nice glades on the north side and a few steeper trails center skiers left. having a base to ski out of in the center of North Conway wouldn't be a bad thing. Wildcat, Attitash, Bretton woods, Shawnee Peak for some night skiing and a couple of drives up to Sunday River. All the restaurants, bars. places to shop. Not to mention plenty of outdoor things to do in the summer (hiking, biking, canoing/Kayaking and climbing)


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 11, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> For a day I can find interesting things there. A few nice glades on the north side and a few steeper trails center skiers left. having a base to ski out of in the center of North Conway wouldn't be a bad thing. Wildcat, Attitash, Bretton woods, Shawnee Peak for some night skiing and a couple of drives up to Sunday River. All the restaurants, bars. places to shop. Not to mention plenty of outdoor things to do in the summer (hiking, biking, canoing/Kayaking and climbing)



Yup.  Just because you have the slope side place at Cranmore wouldn't mean that's the only place you ski.  I bet someone in the demographic that can afford a $500K slope side unit isn't buying a Cranmore only pass.  They're likely Superpass purchasers who will head off to Bretton Woods and Cannon when bored.  That's not a bad day.  Head to Cannon for morning turns until it gets skied off, come home for lunch and head out for a few mellow runs in the afternoon at Cranmore.


----------



## dlague (Feb 11, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup.  Just because you have the slope side place at Cranmore wouldn't mean that's the only place you ski.  I bet someone in the demographic that can afford a $500K slope side unit isn't buying a Cranmore only pass.  They're likely Superpass purchasers who will head off to Bretton Woods and Cannon when bored.  That's not a bad day.  Head to Cannon for morning turns until it gets skied off, come home for lunch and head out for a few mellow runs in the afternoon at Cranmore.



Good point!


----------



## drjeff (Feb 11, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Yup.  Just because you have the slope side place at Cranmore wouldn't mean that's the only place you ski.  I bet someone in the demographic that can afford a $500K slope side unit isn't buying a Cranmore only pass.  They're likely Superpass purchasers who will head off to Bretton Woods and Cannon when bored.  That's not a bad day.  Head to Cannon for morning turns until it gets skied off, come home for lunch and head out for a few mellow runs in the afternoon at Cranmore.



I have a professional colleague of mine, who owns a 4 bedroom condo right across the street from Cranmore that he bought back in the early 90's after a housing crash.  Used to use it maybe 4 to 6 ski weekends a season when his 4 kids were young and then maybe another 4 to 6 weekends the rest of the year.  He and his family might use it a combined 3 or 4 weekends a year now. He never had a season pass to Cranmore, always just hoped around to whatever area he and his family felt like skiing that day, if they even skied at all those days.  Most of the time, he ends up coming home with a car full of new clothes the rest of his family bought at the outlets in North Conway.  I'm supposed to have lunch with him today (he often cancels last minute, so who knows if I'll get a chance to ask him about his feeling about this proposal for Cranmore.),  I'd be highly shocked if he's even heard about this yet!

Plenty of people who buy condos/townhomes/2nd homes in ski country will never own a season pass to any ski area.  I know that this may be quite a foreign concept to many an AZ'er and our shared addiction to sliding down a snow covered hill as much as possible! :lol:


----------



## VTKilarney (Feb 11, 2016)

IMHO, it's like this: North Conway is a great four-season town.  This is an opportunity to buy a condo in a great town with the added benefit of having a ski area outside of the condo.  

There are lots of condos in the North Conway area, but so many of them are much farther from town than this project.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2016)

drjeff said:


> Plenty of people who buy condos/townhomes/2nd homes in ski country will never own a season pass to any ski area.  I know that this may be quite a foreign concept to many an AZ'er and our shared addiction to sliding down a snow covered hill as much as possible! :lol:



I have a friend who has a place at Waterville and I think he only had season passes 1 year for his family. I think he bought it as a status symbol but would never say that to him. Well now that I think of it I may.


----------



## Edd (Feb 12, 2016)

Boston Herald article on it...for what that's worth. 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/...es_to_re_invigorate_resort_north_conway_scene


----------



## Edd (Aug 17, 2016)

Update; breaking ground next month. 

http://www.kearsargebrooknh.com/new...ms-at-Cranmore-to-Break-Ground-September-27th


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 17, 2016)

Interesting that they selected a picture of Wildcat for the front page. Wonder how that got slipped by the Director of Marketing.


----------



## Jully (Aug 17, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting that they selected a picture of Wildcat for the front page. Wonder how that got slipped by the Director of Marketing.



That's fantastic!


----------



## Tin (Aug 17, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Interesting that they selected a picture of Wildcat for the front page. Wonder how that got slipped by the Director of Marketing.




Amazing. First thing I noticed as well. Reminds me of RI's "Cooler and Warmer" tourism commercial that had scenes from Iceland in it.


----------



## EPB (Aug 17, 2016)

I'm very curious to see how well these units sell. The price per square foot is pretty high for the MWV.


----------



## yeggous (Aug 17, 2016)

eastern powder baby said:


> I'm very curious to see how well these units sell. The price per square foot is pretty high for the MWV.



What are you judging them against? There are very few slopeside condos anywhere in New Hampshire. Unlike Vermont, people tend to stay away from the mountain in the towns or just day trip from home. The closest units to compare in the MWV are those at Attitash. Compared to Attitash, we're talking at new construction and there is a significant price premium for North Conway vs Bartlett.


----------



## Jully (Aug 17, 2016)

There are slopeside condos at Attitash? I thought they were across a street?


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 17, 2016)

Quite a bit between Attitash and Bear Peak


----------



## yeggous (Aug 17, 2016)

Jully said:


> There are slopeside condos at Attitash? I thought they were across a street?



Some just off Lower Cathedral, and some off the Attitash - Bear Peak connector trails.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mbedle (Aug 17, 2016)

They changed that picture quick.... lol


----------



## mbedle (Aug 17, 2016)

Isn't there a bunch of condos on the north side of this resort? I think the road is Kandahar.


----------



## Edd (Aug 17, 2016)

mbedle said:


> Isn't there a bunch of condos on the north side of this resort? I think the road is Kandahar.



A few for sure, at least slopeside. I don't think Cranmore is involved with them.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 18, 2016)

Attitash,Bretton Woods,Crotched,andLoon.


----------



## yeggous (Aug 18, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> Attitash,Bretton Woods,Crotched,andLoon.



I forgot about Loon. Sadly I wasn't even counting Crotched as it is not a "resort" destination, nor is it competition for Cranmore.

Black has some too. But I don't consider them competition either.


----------



## xwhaler (Aug 18, 2016)

Shawnee has slopeside housing as well and if you consider the condos Ragged built that u can rent add them to the list.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 22, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I forgot about Loon. Sadly I wasn't even counting Crotched as it is not a "resort" destination, nor is it competition for Cranmore.
> 
> Black has some too. But I don't consider them competition either.



And your point is well taken as Vermont has probably 10 times more than NH.


----------



## machski (Aug 22, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> And your point is well taken as Vermont has probably 10 times more than NH.



Heck, even Maine has more than NH not even counting the currently shelved SB!


----------



## bdfreetuna (Aug 23, 2016)

Waiting for this -- Black Cap Mountain Expansion

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/cranmore/blackcap.php


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 23, 2016)

Would be great to see, but unlikely until there are additional improvements to route 16 shortening the commute. The available ski terrain in the valley is underutilized as is and I believe that's mainly due to access.


----------



## Jully (Aug 23, 2016)

bdfreetuna said:


> Waiting for this -- Black Cap Mountain Expansion
> 
> http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/cranmore/blackcap.php




The terrain didn't look too great up there from the photos they have. Could be just hard to tell due to the angle of the photos though.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 24, 2016)

Looking at the topo and the terrain off of Black Cap might be the best at the resort. Looks about 1000 vertical with no run outs and similar to the current resort's upper mountain slope.


----------



## killaky (Feb 20, 2018)

*Just the Beginning*



mbedle said:


> Looking at the topo and the terrain off of Black Cap might be the best at the resort. Looks about 1000 vertical with no run outs and similar to the current resort's upper mountain slope.



This is just the beginning for Cranmore's next generation.  They will invest more into an all-season mountain village with 2-3x more condos (because the demand is there) and more retail, a Black Cap expansion that brings the resort to 100 trails (largest in New Hampshire), and a mountain village to North Conway village lift that connects the two areas.  It is a no-brainer.

The Cranmore mountain village will eventually be a nightlife destination with more restaurants and retail.  They will be able to offer festivals, and other events at the base.  Since there are no other options other than Schouler Park.  Having NH's largest ski resort within a short lift ride (cabriolet lift similar to Mont Tremblant) makes so much sense.


----------



## Edd (Feb 20, 2018)

killaky said:


> This is just the beginning for Cranmore's next generation.  They will invest more into an all-season mountain village with 2-3x more condos (because the demand is there) and more retail, a Black Cap expansion that brings the resort to 100 trails (largest in New Hampshire), and a mountain village to North Conway village lift that connects the two areas.  It is a no-brainer.
> 
> The Cranmore mountain village will eventually be a nightlife destination with more restaurants and retail.  They will be able to offer festivals, and other events at the base.  Since there are no other options other than Schouler Park.  Having NH's largest ski resort within a short lift ride (cabriolet lift similar to Mont Tremblant) makes so much sense.



Cranmore as the largest ski area in NH...I’ll believe that when I see it, but I certainly think there’s potential for growth and more business. Does anyone know how well the new units are selling?


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## Jully (Feb 20, 2018)

What is the terrain like off Black Cap. Cranmore, even if it had the most trails in NH would still lack vertical and pitch compared to Attitash/Wildcat nearby. It currently isn't even on my radar when I'm in the valley and an extra 700 vert or whatever Black Cap is wouldn't change much for me because that vertical addition wouldn't really be continuous.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Feb 20, 2018)

Edd said:


> Cranmore as the largest ski area in NH...I’ll believe that when I see it, but I certainly think there’s potential for growth and more business.


 Largest NH area after The Balsams Expansion?


----------



## Edd (Feb 20, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Largest NH area after The Balsams Expansion?



No idea, I was just responding to killaky. Not sure where he’d get that info.


----------



## Vaughn (Feb 20, 2018)

Jully said:


> What is the terrain like off Black Cap. Cranmore, even if it had the most trails in NH would still lack vertical and pitch compared to Attitash/Wildcat nearby. It currently isn't even on my radar when I'm in the valley and an extra 700 vert or whatever Black Cap is wouldn't change much for me because that vertical addition wouldn't really be continuous.



That's Bretton Woods' move!


----------



## Jully (Feb 20, 2018)

Edd said:


> No idea, I was just responding to killaky. Not sure where he’d get that info.



I think it would have to be trail count only. Loon, BW, and even Attitash both have a good amount of acreage that it would be tough for Cranmore to surpass.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 20, 2018)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Black Cap sort of a secondary Peak and it won't really add skiable vertical?  It will just be playing with the numbers like SR does to claim 2300 vertical

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Edd (Feb 20, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Black Cap sort of a secondary Peak and it won't really add skiable vertical?  It will just be playing with the numbers like SR does to claim 2300 vertical
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I think you’re correct. I’ve hiked Black Cap a few times but it’s been over 10 years.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Feb 20, 2018)

Mt. Cranmore elevation is ~1680', Black Cap is ~2367'


----------



## Jully (Feb 20, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Black Cap sort of a secondary Peak and it won't really add skiable vertical?  It will just be playing with the numbers like SR does to claim 2300 vertical
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



My thought as well.


----------



## killaky (Feb 20, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Black Cap sort of a secondary Peak and it won't really add skiable vertical?  It will just be playing with the numbers like SR does to claim 2300 vertical
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Skiing from the summit of Black Cap to the brook would be vertical of approximately 1,400 feet.  Cranmore mountain is about 1,200 total vertical.  Skiing from Black Cap to the South Slope base would be approx. 1,700 vertical feet if the base is 200m. That would make Cranmore have a bigger vertical than both Sunday River and Bretton Woods.  Attitash is 1,750 ft. and Bear Peak is 1,450 ft.  The Black Cap expansion is very typical of geographic expansions that we have seen at other resorts.  Further, Attitash and Black Cap are basically identical in total elevation, even the main area base elevations are similar.

White Cap: 1,630 ft.
Locke Mountain: 1,460 ft.
Barker Mountain: 1,400 ft.
Spruce Peak: 1,500 ft.
North Peak: 1,000 ft.
South Ridge: 500 ft.
Aurora Peak: 1,100 ft.
Oz: 1,100 ft.
Jordan Bowl: 1,490 ft.
Bretton Woods: 1,500 ft.
Attitash: 1,750 ft.
Bear Peak: 1,450 ft.

Sunday River 870 Total Acres versus Bretton Woods' 464 Total Acres (Cranmore 170 Total Acres).  Attitash is 311 acres, which would be surpassed if Black Cap was expanded onto.  So Cranmore would have most acreage in the valley with Black Cap.  Wildcat is 225 acres and easily has the most vertical, but that is a different type of mountain.

I think Black Cap checks a bunch of boxes for Cranmore, it would more than double acreage, it adds net vertical (including skiable *total vertical*; meaning total mountain vertical drop would become 1,700 ft. from Black Cap to South Slope base versus 1,200 ft. now, that is a big increase.  It also would exceed Bretton Woods' 97 trail count.

All these things taken into account, along with proximity to the village, top to bottom night skiing infrastructure, current snowmaking capability, etc. and Cranmore becomes a different resort altogether when they finally commit to this expansion.


----------



## Vaughn (Feb 20, 2018)

killaky said:


> Skiing from the summit of Black Cap to the brook would be vertical of approximately 1,400 feet.  Cranmore mountain is about 1,200 total vertical.  Skiing from Black Cap to the South Slope base would be approx. 1,700 vertical feet if the base is 200m. That would make Cranmore have a bigger vertical than both Sunday River and Bretton Woods.  Attitash is 1,750 ft. and Bear Peak is 1,450 ft.  The Black Cap expansion is very typical of geographic expansions that we have seen at other resorts.  Further, Attitash and Black Cap are basically identical in total elevation, even the main area base elevations are similar.
> 
> White Cap: 1,630 ft.
> Locke Mountain: 1,460 ft.
> ...



So what's your official title over at Cranmore anyways?


----------



## Edd (Feb 20, 2018)

killaky said:


> Skiing from the summit of Black Cap to the brook would be vertical of approximately 1,400 feet.  Cranmore mountain is about 1,200 total vertical.  Skiing from Black Cap to the South Slope base would be approx. 1,700 vertical feet if the base is 200m. That would make Cranmore have a bigger vertical than both Sunday River and Bretton Woods.  Attitash is 1,750 ft. and Bear Peak is 1,450 ft.  The Black Cap expansion is very typical of geographic expansions that we have seen at other resorts.  Further, Attitash and Black Cap are basically identical in total elevation, even the main area base elevations are similar.
> 
> White Cap: 1,630 ft.
> Locke Mountain: 1,460 ft.
> ...



You’re simply speculating, correct? 


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## Jully (Feb 20, 2018)

Edd said:


> You’re simply speculating, correct?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone



Agree here. Have you found a master plan for the resort? I'd love to see the Black Cap plans. Unfortunately many resort expansions onto other peaks recently has been just a few trails - unlikely to double the total acreage of the resort. I'd love to be wrong here though! Having Cranmore with a 1700 skiable vert / the size of Attitash/BW would be an awesome thing.


----------



## Jully (Feb 20, 2018)

killaky said:


> I think Black Cap checks a bunch of boxes for Cranmore, it would more than double acreage, it adds net vertical (including skiable *total vertical*; meaning total mountain vertical drop would become 1,700 ft. from Black Cap to South Slope base versus 1,200 ft. now, that is a big increase.  It also would exceed Bretton Woods' 97 trail count.



Do you know anything about what the pitch of Black Cap is? Looking at pictures it doesn't look like anything too impressive, but that can be very deceiving.


----------



## Quietman (Feb 20, 2018)

Jully said:


> Do you know anything about what the pitch of Black Cap is? Looking at pictures it doesn't look like anything too impressive, but that can be very deceiving.



http://www.hillmap.com/m/ag1zfmhpbGxtYXAtaGRychULEghTYXZlZE1hcBiAgIDEmd25Cgw

Looks like 1k vert for the Black Cap lift.


----------



## killaky (Feb 20, 2018)

As the crow flies, its about 2.5 miles from summit to summit, with the brook closer to Cranmore than Black Cap.  So as far as pitch goes, cutting trails similar in style to Ledges should not be an issue, at least towards the top of Black Cap (and with respect to 'is it steep enough to cut a full bodied black diamond trail?').  The topo map for Black Cap shows a longer front face than Cranmore's ~1 mile base to summit distance, but that makes sense considering the vertical drop is larger.  What will be more interesting is what will the "sidecountry" cuts look like when the team gets out there to survey.  The Black Cap "Basin" is not a small land area, so there is ample room for a variety of different difficulty trails; but I think the big issue is the drainage... if you hike behind where the old East Chair double was, you will see that they will need some combination of bridges or in-fill to create a pad area to site the new Black Cap quad on.  It isn't a massive issue, but they will have to deal with it right out of the gate.  Also, I can't imagine that they will need to build any services on the new Black Cap terrain, they can use the East Bowl as a staging area (with a Black Cap summit patrol station).  This is a project that could happen pretty quickly after they solve the new Black Cap base area issues, since all skiers will exit Black Cap terrain on existing trails and extensive infrastructure doesn't need to all go in at once (snowguns, pipes, compressors, outbuildings, flood lighting, etc.).


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 20, 2018)

Killkaky,

I admire your enthusiasm and think the expansion on to Black Cap would be great not only for Cranmore, but the MWV in general.  It would bring some more skiers over from VT and ME for sure and hopefully push the other valley resorts to up their game.  Maybe we finally see a summit HSQ at Attitash.  Perhaps some more snowmaking upgrades and base lodge amenities at Cat.  

That said, I'd temper your enthusiasm about Cranmore becoming the biggest ski area in NH anytime soon.  Or even challenging Attitash as the biggest in the valley proper.  To add the lifts and terrain necessary to dethrone Attitash would probably cost $15-20M maybe more.  There's just not a huge ROI on adding new ski terrain in the East in 2018.  This is especially true for the MWV.  It's just a pain in the ass to get to  and the ski industry is flat on participation.   

More than new terrain and amenities, the one thing that might increase skier visits to the valley more than anything would be if the state extended the route 16 Highway up as far as Ossipee.  Hard to see that happening unless some major non-tourism employers move into the Rochester/Dover corridor and a need is created for more housing in the area from Wakefield up to Ossipee

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Vaughn (Feb 20, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> More than new terrain and amenities, the one thing that might increase skier visits to the valley more than anything would be if the state extended the route 16 Highway up as far as Ossipee.  Hard to see that happening unless some major non-tourism employers move into the Rochester/Dover corridor and a need is created for more housing in the area from Wakefield up to Ossipee
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yep. From metro Boston WV, Loon and Cannon are so much closer than the MWV resorts and you can drive 80Mph most of the way unlike worrying about speeding tickets on 16.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Feb 21, 2018)

+1


----------



## killaky (Feb 21, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Killkaky,
> 
> I admire your enthusiasm and think the expansion on to Black Cap would be great not only for Cranmore, but the MWV in general.  It would bring some more skiers over from VT and ME for sure and hopefully push the other valley resorts to up their game.  Maybe we finally see a summit HSQ at Attitash.  Perhaps some more snowmaking upgrades and base lodge amenities at Cat.
> 
> ...



I was under the impression that Attitash and Bear Peak were valued together at approx. $25 million, and each have substantial infrastructure.  A Black Cap expansion would not be as costly as a Bear Peak since there will be no traditional base area.  $10 million initial phase would be peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  The new condos cost $50 million alone. Loon put in South Peak for $10M and that included multiple lifts and the Pemi base area.  The money wouldn't hold this Black Cap project up, it would be the environmentalists of the Green Hills preserve.  The current Cranmore owners have acknowledged a Black Cap expansion as recently as this past fall (publicly).  Loon installed similar lifts and lengths to what Cranmore would have to do (1,475 vertical ft. high speed quad, and a smaller length fixed grip quad), if anything the requirements of Cranmore will be less costly. 

Regarding the extension of the highway, that would be great even if it was just adding more areas where the highway is two lanes, just reducing bottlenecks would do alot like reducing intersections in places like Wakefield and making that an "exit" versus a 4 way stoplight.  I don't mind Rt. 16, although I never drive during periods that will be slammed with traffic, I will normally stick around at my place until Sunday evening or Monday morning before driving back to Rhode Island.


----------



## Jully (Feb 21, 2018)

killaky said:


> I was under the impression that Attitash and Bear Peak were valued together at approx. $25 million, and each have substantial infrastructure.  A Black Cap expansion would not be as costly as a Bear Peak since there will be no traditional base area.  $10 million initial phase would be peanuts in the grand scheme of things.  The new condos cost $50 million alone. Loon put in South Peak for $10M and that included multiple lifts and the Pemi base area.  The money wouldn't hold this Black Cap project up, it would be the environmentalists of the Green Hills preserve.  The current Cranmore owners have acknowledged a Black Cap expansion as recently as this past fall (publicly).  Loon installed similar lifts and lengths to what Cranmore would have to do (1,475 vertical ft. high speed quad, and a smaller length fixed grip quad), if anything the requirements of Cranmore will be less costly.
> 
> Regarding the extension of the highway, that would be great even if it was just adding more areas where the highway is two lanes, just reducing bottlenecks would do alot like reducing intersections in places like Wakefield and making that an "exit" versus a 4 way stoplight.  I don't mind Rt. 16, although I never drive during periods that will be slammed with traffic, I will normally stick around at my place until Sunday evening or Monday morning before driving back to Rhode Island.



South Peak, I believe, is a lot smaller area wise than the scale of Black Cap you're describing. Cranmore could certainly do a $10 million expansion on Black Cap, it just would be a lot smaller than your description.

A HSQ of the length described for Black Cap would be over $5 million. Ragged installed a 1000 vertical foot HSQ on spear in the summer of 2015 for that much and the price has only gone up and I think brand new lifts rather than replacements are more expensive. You definitely can't survey, cut, and grade many trails with a budget of $5 million. I think DHS's estimate is on point, if not a little under.

Attitash may be valued at $25 million now, but if you converted all the lifts and trail work and construction to today's dollars, it would be a  heck of a lot more than $25 million.

Any extension or widening of 16 would be incredible. Coming from Boston, dealing with 16 makes it a lot less favorable to go to the MWV versus the ski 93 areas.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2018)

I'd say a good financial comp for this project would be West Bowl at Mt Sunapee.  That's estimated at $12-15M.  For Cranmore to become the largest ski area in the state, the project would have to be bigger than Sunapee's.  Hence my guess of $15-20.  Given Cranmores location, that would take many years to earn an ROI.  Where as Sunapee's would happen much faster due to proximity to both 89 and 91 to steal market share from Southern VT areas

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## killaky (Feb 21, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'd say a good financial comp for this project would be West Bowl at Mt Sunapee.  That's estimated at $12-15M.  For Cranmore to become the largest ski area in the state, the project would have to be bigger than Sunapee's.  Hence my guess of $15-20.  Given Cranmores location, that would take many years to earn an ROI.  Where as Sunapee's would happen much faster due to proximity to both 89 and 91 to steal market share from Southern VT areas
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Great convo here.

Does any NH, ME, or VT town/area have as many hotel rooms and rentals as North Conway?  I think the ROI argument has to take into account slack capacity of lodging, since that would more likely be the bottleneck when comparing these projects from resort to resort.  The traffic is only an issue on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons, neither of which affect people actually getting to the resort since Saturday is the busiest day of skiing and people are already settled into lodging at that point.  We have all been to places on 93 on holiday weekends... the traffic issue is at Loon's base lol.  I have never experienced such displeasure.

If the new terrain allows the resort to sell more tickets, *and* the town(s) surrounding have lodging inventory... the ROI should be there.


----------



## deadheadskier (Feb 21, 2018)

It's 16 that's the problem more than available lodging.  A lot of people simply don't want to deal with 16. Even where it is a highway sucks on Friday due to the bridge before Dover.  Hopefully when that opens in 2022 that improves, but the conga line beyond Rochester will still remain. 

I should add, that as a Wildcat skier, I prefer that it's difficult to get to to keep the mobs away.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

North Conway is a better destination (weekend trips/week long trips) but day skiers from Mass have an easier trip up the 93 corridor than traveling up 16. Living in Central NH I end up driving up 93 and around to avoid cutting across 25 onto 16 where I always end up behind some very slow people.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Feb 22, 2018)

killaky said:


> That would make Cranmore have a bigger vertical than both Sunday River and Bretton Woods.  .


While I agree with DHS about SR sort of playing with the numbers,They really do have 2300 ft  of continuous vert.You can ski (allbeit traverse) from the top of Oz to the bottom of White Cap.So its not really playing with the numbers but as the verts for each mt there shows,its really skis much shorter.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Feb 22, 2018)

Also agree with Smelly that if I were coming from Boston I would use 93 and the route he posted or even the Kanc.I avoid 16 as much as I can


----------



## jmgard (Feb 22, 2018)

For Attitash I've even done 93 to 302 since I park at Bear anyway.  A little circuitous but entirely avoids 16 and North Conway, much less stressful driving. Going through both Notches is a nice bonus too


----------



## AdironRider (Feb 22, 2018)

That seems like a ways out of the way to get to Attitash. 

No doubt a nice drive though.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> That seems like a ways out of the way to get to Attitash.
> 
> No doubt a nice drive though.



I do the same thing. Route 16 sux!


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I do the same thing. Route 16 sux!



Actually google maps shows it takes less time to go up and around. Not by much just 5 minutes difference but when you take into account that you could be stuck behind slow bastard, it is worth it. 
From Boston it is only 10 mins longer.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Feb 22, 2018)

Regardless of Rt 16's shortcomings, sometimes taking the highway isn't always better.  Last week on the way up to the MWV, there was a total d-bag with CT plates trailering his sleds almost exclusively in the fast lane on 95, with few breaks into the other lanes-- which totally screwed up traffic flow.


----------



## Smellytele (Feb 22, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Regardless of Rt 16's shortcomings, sometimes taking the highway isn't always better.  Last week on the way up to the MWV, there was a total d-bag with CT plates trailering his sleds almost exclusively in the fast lane on 95, with few breaks into the other lanes-- which totally screwed up traffic flow.


95 or 93? 
One good thing about 93 now is it is 70mph. Either way (16 or 93) is going to suck Friday evening and Sunday late afternoon. 16 has a better chance anytime day or night getting stuck behind a tool bag going 40 in a 50.


----------



## jmgard (Feb 22, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> 95 or 93?
> One good thing about 93 now is it is 70mph. Either way (16 or 93) is going to suck Friday evening and Sunday late afternoon. 16 has a better chance anytime day or night getting stuck behind a tool bag going 40 in a 50.



The 70 zone definitely made it even better. I guess it's just up to personal preference- since I'm a little west of Boston 93/302 and 95/16 take approx. the same time but I am a lot more comfortable driving on a full freeway as opposed to an older highway with stoplights and towns and such. Plus I grew up skiing at Loon so I'm very familiar with 93 and know when I gotta watch out for the 5-0...


----------



## Edd (Mar 17, 2022)

Can’t find a proper link for this story but here’s Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/CbLU9R8Fg05/?utm_medium=copy_link

They’ve broken ground for the new base lodge, which will include 15 residential units. I happened to ski there on Tuesday this week. The residential units are all already under contract, which took a fraction of the time than it did for the first phase of units they built. 

Zips Pub will live on for a few seasons but it’s all getting replaced eventually. It’s nice to see so much $ being invested into a New England ski area.


----------



## thebigo (Mar 17, 2022)

Edd said:


> Can’t find a proper link for this story but here’s Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/p/CbLU9R8Fg05/?utm_medium=copy_link
> 
> They’ve broken ground for the new base lodge, which will include 15 residential units. I happened to ski there on Tuesday this week. The residential units are all already under contract, which took a fraction of the time than it did for the first phase of units they built.
> 
> Zips Pub will live on for a few seasons but it’s all getting replaced eventually. It’s nice to see so much $ being invested into a New England ski area.



What ever happened to the short term rental ban in Conway? 

Took the kids to cranmore last summer and they were busy on a day with marginal weather. Bar at the top had a line for outrageously priced tuckermans in a plastic cup, lines for mountain coaster and several other activities. Vail's sabotage of the summer business at Attitash has led to an off season boom at Cranmore. Cranmore also does a robust tubing business. I would guess these units sell as quickly as they can build them. 

We would be looking if at a different stage in life but the kids are tied into the ragged comp programs for the next decade. A new construction condo at Cranmore offers everything for a retirement second home: low maintenance, night skiing out your back door, shared pass with BW, dining and shopping for the wife, abundant summer activities for grandkids. One mile walk downtown for dogwalks and dinner in the summer, sounds about perfect.


----------

