# If you could pick up and move.....



## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2014)

.....no strings attached, where would you go?

Even though it's $2,000 a year for a season pass in aspen, I'd move there. I'd have to ignore the fact that the cheapest home in aspen is $600,000, and that's for a trailer :lol:


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## abc (May 2, 2014)

Switzerland.


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## JDMRoma (May 2, 2014)

And still have a Job ?  Steamboat........Im Gone !


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## Puck it (May 2, 2014)

Jackson Hole


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## St. Bear (May 2, 2014)

Bozeman, MT.


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## Cannonball (May 2, 2014)

That's a tough one.  Many of the 'strings' I have I wouldn't really want to detach. Such as my wife, my job, my family, my friends, etc.  And some of those play into the location. For example I love my job and it's very hard to find marine ecology jobs in the Rockies!  So factoring in all of the strings that I choose to attach my answer is New England. Which is why I'm here.


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## VTKilarney (May 2, 2014)

Ever since I watched the Sochi Olympics, I've been fascinated with the idea of a relatively warm-weather location with skiing very nearby.  That would be my ideal location.  I'm not convinced that the skiing in Sochi is that good, especially when you read articles about the efforts the Russians took to make sure that there was snow for the Olympics.  And let's not forget that the city of Sochi itself may not be such a great place to live.

But that's my holy grail.  Winter temps in the 50's with decent skiing 45 minutes or less away.


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## abc (May 2, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> That's a tough one.  Many of the 'strings' I have I wouldn't really want to detach. Such as my wife, my job, my family, my friends, etc.  And some of those play into the location. For example I love my job and it's very hard to find marine ecology jobs in the Rockies!  So factoring in all of the strings that I choose to attach my answer is New England. Which is why I'm here.


Exactly! 

I won't leave New York City because I love the opera and Broadway show. Nor for that matter, the ocean! So forget about the Rockies!

But "pick up and leave" is a sort of dreamy spur of the moment thought thing. So just for skiing, I'd move to Europe because I've skied there a bit but want to spend a whole lot more time there. 

So in the long term, I'd stay exactly where I'm right now. (can't you tell I'm happy as a clam?) But I could consider the possibility of "pick up and leave" to spend a few years somewhere else.


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## abc (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But that's my holy grail.  Winter temps in the 50's with decent skiing 45 minutes or less away.


Vancouver is pretty close to that ideal


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## hammer (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Ever since I watched the Sochi Olympics, I've been fascinated with the idea of a relatively warm-weather location with skiing very nearby.  That would be my ideal location.  I'm not convinced that the skiing in Sochi is that good, especially when you read articles about the efforts the Russians took to make sure that there was snow for the Olympics.  And let's not forget that the city of Sochi itself may not such a great place to live.
> 
> But that's my holy grail.  Winter temps in the 50's with decent skiing 45 minutes or less away.



Not sure how close Sacramento is to that but I lived there for a few years and couldn't wait to get back to New England.  That was before I took up skiing, however...


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## Bostonian (May 2, 2014)

I would have to pick right here, just with a bigger house and millions to blow.  Here's why:

1.  I LOVE New England.  How can you not love having both summer and winter, ocean and mountains? 

2.  Family - My family is here, my friends are here, and my community (the jewish one is here).  While I would love to say live in Israel (Tzfat), there isn't enough skiing (sans the Hermon).

3.  Classic New England Skiing - I mean how can you not love places like Magic, Mad River Glen, Wildcat, Gunstock, Jay, and etc... To me there is something special about these places.  I may not be a very good skier, but I do like pushing myself.  Plus I always hear the old saying - If you can ski here, you can ski anywhere.  

So.... if I could live anywhere here New England, it would have to be on the ocean in Rockport.


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## wa-loaf (May 2, 2014)

I missed out on a job with the Vail Daily in the late 90's. Always wonder what I'd be doing now if I had made the move up there.


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## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2014)

Bostonian said:


> If you can ski here, you can ski anywhere.



That's how I originally came up with my AZ handle


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## ScottySkis (May 2, 2014)

If i could fly back and worth to see family and unlmited i hVe to sayCo. Now


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## SIKSKIER (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But that's my holy grail.  Winter temps in the 50's with decent skiing 45 minutes or less away.


Southern California.Big Bear etc.


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## Puck it (May 2, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Southern California.Big Bear etc.



Possilby Reno or Las Vegas, but they can get cold at times


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## Abubob (May 2, 2014)

If there were truly no strings attached I could not settle in one place. I'd explore everywhere. California, Colorado, Alaska, Alberta, Idaho! Nobody talks about Idaho but there's tons of places to ski there. I could spend several life times traveling to different places to ski all over the world and not hit them all. And once I did ski them all and  I went back to the first - it would be like getting to the end of your favorite TV series then going back and watching the first episode - its like you were never there. There is no ONE place I could settle on...

or

Montana.


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## VTKilarney (May 2, 2014)

Bostonian said:


> 1.  I LOVE New England.  How can you not love having both summer and winter, ocean and mountains?



Quoted for truth.  I would also add proximity to amazing cities to that list.


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## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Southern California.Big Bear etc.



I lived in SoCal for 5 years. If it's just about the skiing, it's glorified east coast skiing at best, minus big powder days. The terrain is not terribly difficult either.  Only plus would be that you're anywhere from 5-7 hours from mammoth which is the closest to real skiing in my book, or if you're into terrain parks there are a ton at big bear, which is essentially one giant terrain park.


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2014)

Actually met a retired couple back in the mid to late 90's at Vail. They had sold their home and traveled around in a motor home. They mentioned that they would travel around skiing in the winter and would spend summers at the ocean up and down both coasts. I wouldn't mind doing something like this. Being right where I wanted to be right when I wanted to be.


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## VTKilarney (May 2, 2014)

hammer said:


> Not sure how close Sacramento is to that but I lived there for a few years and couldn't wait to get back to New England.  That was before I took up skiing, however...


  I'm not a huge city fan, so Sacramento may be tough, but Placerville and Camino look pretty ideal for me (at least on paper).  Small populations and winter average high temps in the 50's.  Both towns are on the doorstep to the Sierra Nevada.


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not a huge city fan, so Sacramento may be tough, but Placerville and Camino look pretty ideal for me (at least on paper).  Small populations and winter average high temps in the 50's.  Both towns are on the doorstep to the Sierra Nevada.



I would not want to live in Sacramento. It can be awful hot in the summer.


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## SIKSKIER (May 2, 2014)

Pretty tough to beat an hour to beautifull lakes,the ocean,the mountains and the big city.NH has a lot to offer.


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## dlague (May 2, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> I lived in SoCal for 5 years. If it's just about the skiing, it's glorified east coast skiing at best, minus big powder days. The terrain is not terribly difficult either.  Only plus would be that you're anywhere from 5-7 hours from mammoth which is the closest to real skiing in my book, or if you're into terrain parks there are a ton at big bear, which is essentially one giant terrain park.



Been there done that too!  I lived in Riverside County for 7 years.

This is true - it is like New England skiing with one exception - within 45 minutes you can be golfing.  Additionally, you can be hitting the beach in March at - lets pick Laguna and the next day be skiing Snow Summit.  It is pretty cool!  Then again that area is not all that it appears to be - traffic really sucks, Santa Ana Winds can be brutal on your car, lots and lots of graffiti. lots of homeless folks, housing expensive, taxes are high (income and sales), etc.  Places like Hollywood are very dirty! 

There are some pluses though - lots to do!


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## dlague (May 2, 2014)

I have never been out west - I have always dreamed of living in CO and even interviewed for a job out there but I soon realized that housing is not cheap!  Any premonitions towards something out west would solely be based on the skiing that I read about!  Otherwise maybe Tahoe!

I like New England though!  At this time I have access to many ski areas within relatively short driving distances and I am OK with that!


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## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2014)

dlague said:


> I have never been out west - I have always dreamed of living in CO and even interviewed for a job out there but I soon realized that housing is not cheap!  Any premonitions towards something out west would solely be based on the skiing that I read about!  Otherwise maybe Tahoe!
> 
> I like New England though!  At this time I have access to many ski areas within relatively short driving distances and I am OK with that!



Depends on location. If you're trying to find someplace cheap in Summit county, you'll be SOL. But if you live in Clear Creek County, which is the next county over and where I lay my head at night, you can find reasonable house prices, and be 20 minutes from Loveland, 35 from a-basin, 40 from keystone, etc.

Don't want to go off on a tangent, but if you want any more info feel free to PM me


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## deadheadskier (May 2, 2014)

SIKSKIER said:


> Pretty tough to beat an hour to beautifull lakes,the ocean,the mountains and the big city.NH has a lot to offer.



This.   No desire to leave NH.

As I was discussing with Edd one day, NH is not the best place to be for anything.  But its a damn fine place to be for Everything.


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## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2014)

I love NH. Where else can you buy liquor like candy without getting off the interstate?


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## skiNEwhere (May 2, 2014)

Found the video that sums up why NH is awesome


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## steamboat1 (May 2, 2014)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/168770/half-illinois-connecticut-move-elsewhere.aspx


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## VTKilarney (May 2, 2014)

I've spent quite a bit of time in states such as NM, CO, WY, ID, NV, and MT.  Utah and Northern California are the two big holes in my travel resume.  When I was younger, each time I would go out west I anticipated that I would decide to move there.  And yet I never returned from a trip out west feeling that way.  

Why?  Well... let's be clear about one thing.  There is so much about the Rockies that is AWESOME.  I don't mean to understate that one bit.  But... each and every time I went out west I would say to myself, "You better like living here, because there isn't anything else nearby."  This may have been a slight exaggeration, but compared to New England it is a very valid observation.  New England has an AMAZING amount of places within just a short drive.

Having said that, I did not see New Mexico until I was settled in New England.  Sante Fe, New Mexico is the one place that I would have chosen over New England had I visited there when I was younger.  The weather is perfect (true four seasons without a terribly cold winter), the natural surroundings are stunning, skiing is nearby, it's got loads of history, and the Native American culture is vibrant (just spend a day in Browning, MT and you will know what I mean).  Albuquerque is a short drive away for a big city fix.  The only thing Santa Fe lacks is ocean.

For me, Rockies versus New England is an easy choice.  A much harder choice, however, is Europe versus New England.  Europe has loads of similarities, but has bigger and better ski areas, fantastic public transportation, and unmatched history and art.  From a city like Turin (which is admittedly industrial) it is a SHORT ride to skiing.  The Italian Riviera is two hours or less away, and it is three hours or less to the Lake Region, Milan, Monaco, and loads of other great places.

Since I am a dual citizen, Europe is a very likely retirement choice.  I'm also hoping that my children consider living in Europe when they are old enough.  They can live and work anywhere in the EU with no restrictions, so they have a lot of opportunities.  Oh, and did I mention that they can attend college anywhere int he EU at the local (resident) rate?  More and more full-English college programs are cropping up each year, especially in the Netherlands and Scandanavia.  Tuition is DIRT cheap - usually about $2,500 USD per year.


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## Cannonball (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Sante Fe, New Mexico is the one place that I would have chosen over New England had I visited there when I was younger.  The weather is perfect (true four seasons without a terribly cold winter), the natural surroundings are stunning, skiing is nearby, it's got loads of history, and the Native American culture is vibrant (just spend a day in Browning, MT and you will know what I mean).  Albuquerque is a short drive away for a big city fix.  The only thing Santa Fe lacks is ocean.



I've spent a fair amount of time in the Adobe theme park known as Santa Fe.  I've been there at all times of year.   The only variation I noticed was 'dry and hot'  vs 'dry and warm'.  If that fits your definition of seasons, and if the strip malls of Albuquerque serve as enough of a city for you then SF wouldn't be a terrible spot to spend more than a week.


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## VTKilarney (May 2, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> I've spent a fair amount of time in the Adobe theme park known as Santa Fe.  I've been there at all times of year.   The only variation I noticed was 'dry and hot'  vs 'dry and warm'.  If that fits your definition of seasons, and if the strip malls of Albuquerque serve as enough of a city for you then SF wouldn't be a terrible spot to spend more than a week.



Maybe my perception was off since I just happened to be there during a cold week with some snowfall.  The only time I spent in ABQ was to drive to and from the airport.  I guess I might have dodged a bullet!  The bulk of my time was in less desirable parts of the state.

What about Ruidoso?


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## Cannonball (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> What about Ruidoso?



"You better like living here, because there isn't anything else nearby."  x10

Not my cup of tea.  My dad has long been obsessed with Alamagordo though.  So to each their own.


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## hammer (May 2, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I would not want to live in Sacramento. It can be awful hot in the summer.


Yup, good point...average highs in the low 90s which are somewhat tolerable with the lower humidity, but it's not uncommon to get in the 100s which is bad even if it's bone dry.  Most interesting weather is in the winter and spring (valley fog excluded).  Biggest detractor we saw was an overall lack of community feel, and the crime didn't help either...


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## jimk (May 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not a huge city fan, so Sacramento may be tough, but Placerville and Camino look pretty ideal for me (at least on paper).  Small populations and winter average high temps in the 50's.  Both towns are on the doorstep to the Sierra Nevada.



A few years back I looked into this.  Checked weather averages, etc., asked other folks, and made a list for the best places in the US for the following combo:  warmest winter temps and closest proximity to world class skiing.  The California foothills between Sacramento and Tahoe came out on top.  This was about the time of the recession and big US real estate crash.  Sacramento region had a ton of foreclosures and 50-60% drop in home values.  So much for paradise.  Although I guess maybe there was a window of opportunity there we missed?;-)

I am nearing the point where I could pick up and move.  But the wife is not fully onboard.  Funny, after considering all the skier stuff like best mtns, most snow, closest airports, it might come down to non-skier stuff like most compatible culture, arts, and faith community??


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2014)

hammer said:


> Yup, good point...average highs in the low 90s which are somewhat tolerable with the lower humidity, but it's not uncommon to get in the 100s which is bad even if it's bone dry.  Most interesting weather is in the winter and spring (valley fog excluded).  Biggest detractor we saw was an overall lack of community feel, and the crime didn't help either...



Also I do not like they way it is brown in the winter


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## abc (May 2, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> Also I do not like they way it is brown in the winter


That goes with a lot of the "warm in the winter" western candidates!

If you want it to be warm enough to not have snow covered (white) in the winter, it'll be brown...

The only part that can still be green will be ON the coast, like Vancouver, Seattle etc. But some consider those not close enough to the mountain.


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## VTKilarney (May 2, 2014)

The one complaint I have with the Northeast is how the clouds can linger.  Out west, when a snowstorm is over, the sun comes out.  We can go days here without seeing the sun.


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## Savemeasammy (May 2, 2014)

Tahoe.  Mild winters.  Mild summers.  Awesome skiing (unless it doesn't snow!)

I'm happy in New England, though.  I could just do without the brutal cold!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## twinplanx (May 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Ever since I watched the Sochi Olympics, I've been fascinated with the idea of a relatively warm-weather location with skiing very nearby.  That would be my ideal location.  I'm not convinced that the skiing in Sochi is that good, especially when you read articles about the efforts the Russians took to make sure that there was snow for the Olympics.  And let's not forget that the city of Sochi itself may not be such a great place to live.
> 
> But that's my holy grail.  Winter temps in the 50's with decent skiing 45 minutes or less away.



I hear there's a place called California where this is possible. ;-) lol in all seriousness the good skiing is probably 2+ hours from the coast, which is where I'd want to be. Warmer climate in SoCal, but the water temperature (ocean) doesn't benefit from the Gulf Stream like we do. Just gotta figure out what to do with those pesky earthquakes. 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## podunk77 (May 3, 2014)

I hope to be in this "pack up and move" situation in a few years when I retire.  I currently live in Mass but hope to relocate anywhere from the Claremont NH area, northeastward up to the Berlin NH area.  Housing costs and proximity to ski areas will be the prime factors.


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## drjeff (May 3, 2014)

Park City - a whole host of GREAT skiing right there and even more within an hours drive! Lots of cultural opportunities year round. An easy 30 minute, all interstate ride to an international airport, great summer weather and activities. Plenty of good healthcare facilities in the region. 

My wife and I have given some thought on multiple occasions to doing this. If we didn't have such strong family ties to New England, probably would of been done already

If it was "pick up and move" since you just won powerball and a 9 figure prize, then I'm moving to Maui, buying a private jet and then also a place in the Deercrest Development at Deer Valley (the airport in Heber that can easily handle private jets isn't much more than 15 minutes away from the Deercrest entrance  )


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## BenedictGomez (May 3, 2014)

Someplace with low taxes, non-excessive government regulation, a solid economic base (now an outprojected into the future), at least some culture, and excellent skiing.  Sadly, that animal doesnt really exist.   The closest thing might be New Hampshire, but that state's sadly headed into decline.


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## Cannonball (May 3, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Someplace with low taxes, non-excessive government regulation, a solid economic base (now an outprojected into the future), at least some culture, and excellent skiing.  Sadly, that animal doesnt really exist.   The closest thing might be New Hampshire, but that state's sadly headed into decline.



2/3 of the way through your post I was thinking "that sounds like NH!!".  I disagree about the decline.  But knowing your politics I understand where you are coming from.  Have you looked into Chile?  Totally business-based, extraction economy.  Very few restrictions or regulation.  Granted, they will be paying for that later like we are now. But in our lifetime it could be pretty sweet.


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## boston_e (May 3, 2014)

I gotta say, unless we are talking about the power ball winning type of move, I'd have to mostly likely pick right here in New England.

I enjoy the ocean too much in the summertime to go to Colorado / Utah etc.  And while California does have the ocean it seems like the distances from Tahoe to the ocean etc are longer.

As someone mentioned previously in the thread, while New England might not be the best at any one thing, it sure is pretty darn good at a lot of things… and most of those things are within 2 to 3 hours.


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## snoseek (May 3, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Someplace with low taxes, non-excessive government regulation, a solid economic base (now an outprojected into the future), at least some culture, and excellent skiing.  Sadly, that animal doesnt really exist.   The closest thing might be New Hampshire, but that state's sadly headed into decline.




If you can deal with the whole church/state thing Utah sounds sorta ok


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## snoseek (May 3, 2014)

I can't even answer this question. I do like the idea of traveling around and experiencing different places. New England is a great place for so many reasons and I enjoy spending summers here and working seasonal. With that said if at some point I finally settle down there's no way it will be east of Denver. I actually like the central location of Grand Junction.


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## deadheadskier (May 3, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> The closest thing might be New Hampshire, but that state's sadly headed into decline.



In what regard


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## steamboat1 (May 3, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> In what regard



Lousy neighbors


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## abc (May 3, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> I hear there's a place called California where this is possible. ;-) lol in all seriousness the good skiing is probably 2+ hours from the coast, which is where I'd want to be.


California isn't even close to being a good condidate for that.

Oregon, Washington, and this little known place call Vancouver has much closer skiing! 

I heard the skiing were world class.  

Damn long ski season too!!!


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## BenedictGomez (May 4, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> 2/3 of the way through your post I was thinking "that sounds like NH!!".  I disagree about the decline.  But knowing your politics I understand where you are coming from.  Have you looked into Chile?  Totally business-based, extraction economy.  Very few restrictions or regulation.  Granted, they will be paying for that later like we are now. But in our lifetime it could be pretty sweet.



True.  Great things are happening in Chile, GDP is soaring, poverty has been decreasing, and it might be one of the most economically "free" nations on the planet, but I was approaching the question from an "in America" standpoint.  Its been a fantastic emerging market to invest in though.



snoseek said:


> If you can deal with the whole church/state thing Utah sounds sorta ok



Never been, but I really want to check the place out.  Great skiing, economy is doing great, about the lowest taxes in America, little intrusion, etc...., but I dont know if I could live that far from the ocean.  Maybe I'd get used to it though; I should definitely check the place out.  I imagine it would be pretty awesome living an hour or so from all those incredible mountains.



deadheadskier said:


> In what regard



Predicting the future.  

Basically New Hampshire is going to become New Hassachumont in 20 years or less, and there's no stopping it.   Of course, my state will be the second state in America to declare bankruptcy in about 20 years, so there's that.



steamboat1 said:


> Lousy neighbors



Basically.


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## deadheadskier (May 4, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Predicting the future.
> 
> Basically New Hampshire is going to become New Hassachumont in 20 years or less, and there's no stopping it.



disagree

The foundation of our state's economy is differentiation from our high tax neighbors.

One need to only look at the local economies of our border towns compared to neighboring communities across the border.  

On the surface, the retail industry difference is obvious.  However, there's more going on than that.  NH aggressively pursues Mass businesses to move their companies and jobs here.  http://www.boston.com/business/arti...secret_salesman_luring_massachusett  s_firms/

and back to the retail side of things, you've got tax raising Mass Senators getting busted coming to our state to avoid the taxes they vote on.

http://gawker.com/5351011/booze-taxing-mass-lawmaker-caught-at-new-hampshire-packy

The great comedian Juston McKinney (lives in my town) sums NH up quite nicely


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## Edd (May 4, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> For example I love my job and it's very hard to find marine ecology jobs in the Rockies!



Yeah, but have you really looked?  So lazy...

Money no object? Tahoe is pretty sweet, crap snow years aside. A place on the water while I'm staring at Heavenly sounds amazing. 

But I like walkable towns, which brings me to Aspen. That is more skiing than I can handle, stupidly getting on the bus and being chauffeured to the skiing I can handle. 

Money is an object and I've gotta worry about a job? That makes me consider so many variables that I'm probably just staying put in NH. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## twinplanx (May 4, 2014)

abc said:


> California isn't even close to being a good condidate for that.
> 
> Oregon, Washington, and this little known place call Vancouver has much closer skiing!
> 
> ...



Since surfing factors so highly in MY "no strings attached"  decision, I thought California would be a better option then those to the North... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## HowieT2 (May 4, 2014)

Mad river valley.  Great vibe, food scene, skiing, mtn biking, hiking and swimming in the river.


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## VTKilarney (May 4, 2014)

Since about 1992, the Democratic party has made major inroads in New Hampshire.  Make of that what you will - but it is definitely a change.  New Hampshire's business base may be healthy, but that does not mean that social policies are bound to remain the same.

As someone who lives near the border, I see New Hampshire going through what Vermont went through many years ago.  It may never be as pronounced, but there is change in the air.

Whether this change is a good or bad thing is entirely subjective.


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## BenedictGomez (May 4, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> disagree
> *
> The foundation of our state's economy is differentiation from our high tax neighbors.*



See below.  VTKilarny gets it.  

Democrats will eventually overrun the Libertarians & Republicans in New Hampshire, taxes will increase, businesses will be driven away, social programs & social spending will dramatically increase, financial responsibility will become near non-existant, and the fiscal health will decline.  

It is unavoidable.  It is your destiny.












VTKilarney said:


> *Since about 1992, the Democratic party has made major inroads in New Hampshire.  Make of that what you will - but it is definitely a change.*
> 
> As someone who lives near the border,* I see New Hampshire going through what Vermont went through many years ago.*



Vermont is still "going through" it, it's early-innings there.  Economies of a region move SLOWwwwwwwlllly. It's like moving an aircraft carrier, not a PT-boat, and because the changes are almost imperceptibly slow, response comes inadequately, and too late to effect positive change.  Vermonters are now some of the highest taxed people in America (my perception is the average Vermonter is obvious to this) and it's getting worse.

The irony of the situation is that many of these New Hampshire bound  immigrant Democrats "fled" an area due to the expensive cost of  living, tax structure, and lack of jobs (SEE: New York, New Jersey,  Massachusetts), only to continue to vote Democrat in their new environ  (SEE: North Carolina, Eastern Pennsylvania, Virginia).  It's quite  extraordinary.


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## VTKilarney (May 4, 2014)

Full disclosure, I'm a moderate with a libertarian leaning.  I have issues with both major parties.

While I agree that Vermont has its issues, you really can't say that Vermont is a disaster.  Vermont has a very low unemployment rate, and the economy is sound.  While that sounds well and good, my anecdotal observation is that private sector jobs here are absolute shit.  We may have low unemployment, but the manufacturing sector of our economy is absolutely devastated.  The jobs we have are generally low paying service jobs.  And while I understand that manufacturing jobs have suffered everywhere, just take a look at Bombardier, C&S Wholesale Grocers, and IBM (all of whom have abandoned, or are abandoning, Vermont) and you can see that other adjacent states have done a much better job keeping and attracting manufacturing.  About the only private industry with high paying jobs is healthcare - but even they are under lots of pressure.  Wages have been stagnant in the healthcare industry.

My other concern is that the Vermont economy is being propped up with government and teaching jobs.  Vermont has an insane amount of both on a per capita basis.  A lot of those jobs have depended on underfunded pensions and other such obligations.  Just take a look at the ticking time bomb that Burlington has with its pension obligations and you will see what I mean.

In my area, I can't say that the economy is doing terrible, but I can't say that it's doing well, and I definitely don't see growth.  People seem to be treading water, and no more.  Even at Jay Peak, a much heralded success story, 98% of the jobs that have been created are low paying jobs.

It's also a myth that it's cheap to live here.  Real estate prices are low, and car insurance rates are low - and that's about all that is low.  Heating costs are tremendously expensive and property taxes are extremely high with no end in sight.

I would be very surprised if my children find success in Vermont - and it kills me to say that.  I do know that the odds are a lot higher in other parts of the country.


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## deadheadskier (May 4, 2014)

You can speculate all you want.  I live here, vote and pay attention to what's brought to the table.  The larger presence of Democrats in government here has not had the effect you'd think it would.  None of the things you are speaking of have happened.  In fact, if anything, social spending has decreased considerably over the six years I've lived here and the fiscal health of the state has improved. 

The reason the Republican party has lost ground here is completely to do with their stance on things like Gay Marriage and very little to do with economics. 

FTR I also spent the largest percentage of my adult life living in Vermont, so I'm well aware of how certain policies there retard economic growth - big reason why I and most of my high school and college buddies up and moved.


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## VTKilarney (May 4, 2014)

You honestly do not believe that a major shift in party power will have little or no impact on New Hampshire?  

The early Democrats elected in Vermont were extremely moderate.  Compared to today's Democrats in Vermont, Howard Dean was an absolute fiscal conservative when he was governor - who had to completely reinvent himself when he ran for President to attract support on a national level.

When I say that I see New Hampshire mirroring Vermont, that is what I am referring to.  I'm not suggesting that there will be an equally abrupt change, but I don't possibly understand how you feel that a major shift in party leadership will have no impact on social policies.


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## deadheadskier (May 4, 2014)

Not in New Hampshire.  No, I don't see such a shift happening.  Like I said, the state's differentiation from it's neighbors is the foundation of it's economy.  Whatever VT, ME and MA does, NH tends to do the opposite.  Just look at the tobacco tax.  When Mass raised theirs, NH lowered theirs to entice people to come over the border and spend their money here.  

I don't plan on seeing things such as income taxes or sales taxes in my lifetime here.


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## VTKilarney (May 4, 2014)

I hope you are correct!

One thing that New Hampshire has done very well is showing that you can have a robust economy without high government spending.


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## xwhaler (May 5, 2014)

I really like where we live now....hour to decent skiing, 90 mins to great skiing (Cannon) and NVT is doable in 2:30-3 hrs.
25 mins to the beach, 30 mins to downtown Portsmouth and its host of restaurants, culture. I put my boat in Portsmouth downtown and can be out to the Isles of Shoals, Kittery, Dover Point, Little Harbor in a short amt of time.

Boston (though not my scene) is just over an hour away to catch flights out of Logan or see a Sox game. I work in Mass on the NH border and my commute is 50 mins which is not great but we make it work.

If $ were no object however and I didn't need to work anymore, I'd probably re locate up to Rangeley ME. Unbelievable 4 season outdoor experience with some of the best EC skiing. Long way from family and I worry a bit about being a bit isolated but overall I think that would be my pick.
Zero interest in ever moving out of Northern New England.


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## otisshirley (May 5, 2014)

Just one data point: I have friends (couple in their 40s, two kids) in the described financial situation who are avid skiers. They used to live near Palo Alto and had a house in Tahoe. They moved to Aspen and love it in every way.

Most of the other people I know who could live anywhere have stayed put. Inertia, friends, kids' schools, kids' friends, etc. tend to outweigh everything else.


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## Domeskier (May 5, 2014)

I understand that there is triple black diamond extreme skiing in Calumet, Michigan in the copper country.  And they average more snow than the mighty Tug Hill!


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## dlague (May 5, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Since about 1992, the Democratic party has made major inroads in New Hampshire.



Primarily due to the mass migration from MA.  Southern NH is now northern MA IMO, which has had a huge impact.  However, so far, our Democratic governors have been some what moderate and things have not changed dramatically with the exception of a few left leaning policies that go unnoticed by most.

Any disruption relative to income or sales tax would have significant impact on the party in power so I do not se changes in that respect.

I still find it to be a nice central location to ski from!


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## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You can speculate all you want.  I live here, vote and pay attention to what's brought to the table.  *The larger presence of Democrats in government here has not had the effect you'd think it would.  None of the things you are speaking of have happened.*



Yes, I'm well aware.   That's what "speculating" is about, predicting the future.  

I had the same conversation with Vermonters in the 1990s when I predicted (correctly) Vermont's future.  _NO WAY that will happen in Vermont!_ etc...   Also, the change I speak of comes slowly.  What's happened in Vermont is rather quick from that perspective, aided entirely from the low population (2nd lowest in America).  

But New Hampshire is Little Bighorn, and they're surrounded.  The House is already Democrat.  The Senate is _barely_ Republican.  Those southern Republican areas are living on borrowed time due to the Taxachussetts invasion by Democrats.  They have perhaps a few election cycles left in them, then the House and Senate of New Hampshire will be Democrat.   Once the Democrats in New Hampshire pass the tipping point where they're not just winning elections, but believe _"they cant lose"_, the fiscally responsible policies will be gone...history....see ya.  The social stuff will come with it.   I am as confident of this as I am the sun shall rise tomorrow.



dlague said:


> *Primarily due to the mass migration from MA.  Southern NH is now northern MA IMO, which has had a huge impact.*  However, so far, our Democratic governors have been some what moderate and things have not changed dramatically with the exception of a few left leaning policies that go unnoticed by most.




This is one of the starkest immigration patterns in all of America.  

I'm a total dork for economics who actually looks at this stuff, but the "fleeing" from Massachusetts to New Hampshire LEAPS off the page when you look at the data.  I dont know anything about Middlesex county, but if you look at the tax data it's amazing how many people from there have moved to the two southeasternmost counties in New Hampshire (mostly to the county with Portsmouth).

  In fact, the "fleeing" from Essex County to New Hampshire would look impressive too if not for the fact it's swamped by Middlesex Mass.  But put it this way, in less than 20 years, > $2.5 BILLION in AGI has poured into just those TWO NH counties from just those TWO MA counties.  That's positively astounding.


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## hammer (May 5, 2014)

What I can't figure is how anyone can see living in southern NH and working in Mass. as being cheaper...housing prices maybe?  Those folks get the worst of both worlds tax-wise, high income taxes from Mass. and high property taxes (not that my property taxes are cheap but at least we have prop 2.5).


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## twinplanx (May 5, 2014)

At least this Thread hasn't gotten political yet... :-( 

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## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2014)

twinplanx said:


> At least this Thread hasn't gotten political yet... :-(



It really hasn't.  

People pointing out demographic trends and/or tax trends based on actual hard recorded census and IRS data, isn't "political", it's "pointing out something that occurred".


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## 4aprice (May 5, 2014)

For me I have to do some more traveling before I could make a decision.  Currently have property interests in NJ and Florida.  Would like to get rid of some (while keeping a toe hold) in NJ, and add elsewhere.  Have traveled extensively (and skied) in Colorado and Utah but would like to get to see Idaho, Montana and maybe eastern Washington before making any decisions.  Currently Salt Lake would be high on my list.  I have never had any issues with the Morman aspect of life out there, there are some nice boating reservoirs not too far from the metro (only interested in fresh water boating) and most importantly a convenient airport.  Expect the daughter to end up back in NJ (thus the toehold here) but have no idea where the boy will go after school.  Who knows, what I would really love may not exist in the west (is there a place like Winnipesaukee out there?) but regardless our future will involve more time out west. 

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## xwhaler (May 5, 2014)

hammer said:


> What I can't figure is how anyone can see living in southern NH and working in Mass. as being cheaper...housing prices maybe?  Those folks get the worst of both worlds tax-wise, high income taxes from Mass. and high property taxes (not that my property taxes are cheap but at least we have prop 2.5).



In my case its really 3 main reasons: 1) Job opportunity, 2) housing costs at time we purchased in So NH 8 yrs ago (back when I was employed in NH), and 3) no sales tax

Beyond the litany of other reasons why I much prefer living in NH, these are prob the 3 most compelling cost reasons why it works for us. My wife is employed in NH so at least its only one of us paying income taxes.


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## twinplanx (May 5, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> It really hasn't.
> 
> People pointing out demographic trends and/or tax trends based on actual hard recorded census and IRS data, isn't "political", it's "pointing out something that occurred".



Yes, and I was pointing out that it sounds a bit like POLITICAL figure pointing.  Denial is not only a river in Egypt... 

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## snoseek (May 5, 2014)

4aprice said:


> For me I have to do some more traveling before I could make a decision.  Currently have property interests in NJ and Florida.  Would like to get rid of some (while keeping a toe hold) in NJ, and add elsewhere.  Have traveled extensively (and skied) in Colorado and Utah but would like to get to see Idaho, Montana and maybe eastern Washington before making any decisions.  Currently Salt Lake would be high on my list.  I have never had any issues with the Morman aspect of life out there, there are some nice boating reservoirs not too far from the metro (only interested in fresh water boating) and most importantly a convenient airport.  Expect the daughter to end up back in NJ (thus the toehold here) but have no idea where the boy will go after school.  Who knows, what I would really love may not exist in the west (is there a place like Winnipesaukee out there?) but regardless our future will involve more time out west.
> 
> Alex
> 
> Lake Hopatcong, NJ



You would like Tahoe I think if you're into lakes and year round goodness.


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## boston_e (May 5, 2014)

hammer said:


> What I can't figure is how anyone can see living in southern NH and working in Mass. as being cheaper...housing prices maybe?  Those folks get the worst of both worlds tax-wise, high income taxes from Mass. and high property taxes (not that my property taxes are cheap but at least we have prop 2.5).



I've wondered about that too... particularly with what could potentially be a long commute if someone works on the 128 belt or on the interior of 128... a lot of miles on the car to factor in there.

I'd guess the financial side of it is less of a driver in the decisions and its largely just that there are a lot of great areas in southern NH to live in regardless of the tax situation etc.


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## deadheadskier (May 5, 2014)

boston_e said:


> I'd guess the financial side of it is less of a driver in the decisions and its largely just that there are a lot of great areas in southern NH to live in regardless of the tax situation etc.



One thing to factor in on the value side is that even though mill rate property taxes are higher in NH, the valuations are lower.  You get a lot more home for the money and though you end up paying a higher rate, the total out of pocket expense is equal or lower than many Mass communities.


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## BenedictGomez (May 5, 2014)

hammer said:


> What *I can't figure is how anyone can see living in  southern NH and working in Mass. as being cheaper...housing prices  maybe?  Those folks get the worst of both worlds tax-wise, high income  taxes from Mass. and high property taxes*



I'm guessing the wages they can earn in MA are substantially higher than what they can earn in NH, even adjusting for the larger tax bite they're taking?




twinplanx said:


> Yes, and *I was pointing out that it sounds a bit like POLITICAL figure pointing.  Denial is not only a river in Egypt*...



  Call it "finger pointing" or whatever you like, but I for the life of me cant understand how you think having an intellectual discussion about the high tax burden in these Democrat-run states is a politically charged conversation.  No more so than pointing out Rabbits like carrots for heaven's sake.  It's not "opinion" or "theory" or some controversial abstract thing, it's simply routine crap _everybody_ knows.


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## steamboat1 (May 6, 2014)

http://www.wgme.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/bears-responsible-rash-car-breakins-nh-22259.shtml#.U2hd6KLUkf5

[h=1]Bears responsible for a rash of car break-ins in NH[/h]


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## Rowsdower (May 6, 2014)

Came here to say Vancouver, but it was already said. Not sure if I cold endure the dreary weather however. I love the Northeast though. It has everything I could want even if the mountains are smaller. It makes for a different kind of experience and you learn to appreciate the outdoors a bit more I think. Life is full of compromises.


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## abc (May 6, 2014)

Rowsdower said:


> Came here to say Vancouver, but it was already said. Not sure if I cold endure the dreary weather however.


No more dreary than the northeast, I don't think. 



> I love the Northeast though. It has everything I could want even if the mountains are smaller. It makes for a different kind of experience and you learn to appreciate the outdoors a bit more I think. *Life is full of compromises*.


Quite right!


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## BenedictGomez (May 6, 2014)

How's Montana?  I dont think anyone's mentioned that one yet.  It's beautiful, rural, affordable, and has some well-renowned ski mountains.  I'm guessing it's probably pretty lacking culturally though.


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## Cannonball (May 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> How's Montana?  I dont think anyone's mentioned that one yet.  It's beautiful, rural, affordable, and has some well-renowned ski mountains.  I'm guessing it's probably pretty lacking culturally though.



If you think Utah is too far from the ocean....


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Bozeman is a fantastic town.  But you need to accept that it's colder than in Colorado.  Sometimes MUCH colder.  I found the weather in Whitefish to be too much Pacific Northwest like.  This is not to say that it's like Seattle, but the snow is definitely not as dry as I was expecting.  There are some hidden gems that aren't worth traveling to, but would be a nice place to live - such as Red Lodge.


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## Edd (May 6, 2014)

Cannonball said:


> If you think Utah is too far from the ocean....



A lot of marine ecologist opportunities in Montana though, but you already know that. 


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## deadheadskier (May 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Call it "finger pointing" or whatever you like, but I for the life of me cant understand how you think having an intellectual discussion about the high tax burden in these Democrat-run states is a politically charged conversation.  No more so than pointing out Rabbits like carrots for heaven's sake.  It's not "opinion" or "theory" or some controversial abstract thing, it's simply routine crap _everybody_ knows.



Seriously?

You are assigning blame on tax policy to a *POLITICAL PARTY. * It doesn't get any more political than that.  Now shame on me for engaging in the discussion regarding democrats in NH and how their influence hasn't changed anything, but politics are a no go here.  Plenty of other places on the internet to have an "intellectual discussion" on tax policy and political parties. 

Let's try and continue the conversation while leaving donkeys and elephants out of it okay?


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## Scruffy (May 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> How's Montana?  I dont think anyone's mentioned that one yet.  It's beautiful, rural, affordable, and has some well-renowned ski mountains.  I'm guessing it's probably pretty lacking culturally though.



Summers are beautiful, winters are foggy and cold, spring skiing is nice.  Nice place to go fly fishing or ranching.

You can't have your cake and eat it too Bene. If you want culture, you'll have to live in a state that rubs you the wrong way, hence why you lived in NYC and now NJ.


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## St. Bear (May 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> How's Montana?  I dont think anyone's mentioned that one yet.  It's beautiful, rural, affordable, and has some well-renowned ski mountains.  I'm guessing it's probably pretty lacking culturally though.



That was my response.  You get 80% of the powder of UT with 40% of the crowds.  Lower cost of living, and there's summer skiing not far away in Glacier Park.


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## Domeskier (May 6, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Seriously?
> 
> You are assigning blame on tax policy to a *POLITICAL PARTY. * It doesn't get any more political than that.  Now shame on me for engaging in the discussion regarding democrats in NH and how their influence hasn't changed anything, but politics are a no go here.  Plenty of other places on the internet to have an "intellectual discussion" on tax policy and political parties.
> 
> Let's try and continue the conversation while leaving donkeys and elephants out of it okay?



Apparently all you have to do to avoid engaging in policitical discussion is to replace all of your normative claims with the politically salient facts that support them.  Opponents of campaign finance reform the world over must be rejoicing.


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## BenedictGomez (May 6, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> You are assigning blame on tax policy to a *POLITICAL PARTY. * It doesn't get any more political than that.  Now shame on me for engaging in the discussion regarding democrats in NH and how their influence hasn't changed anything, but politics are a no go here.
> *
> Let's try and continue the conversation while leaving donkeys and elephants out of it okay?*



That's fine, but for my final 2¢ on the matter to clarify, I never said "blame" and everything I said was entirely factual, not political (there's a rather huge difference).  If you point out that Clinton started NAFTA and Bush started the Patriot Act that's not called being "political", it's called "talking about stuff that actually happened".  The conversation related to affordability, and if we cant even have a friendly discussion about which places factually have higher taxes than other places for "fear" of pointing out which party may be in control, that's not really "politics", it's "political correctness".  



Scruffy said:


> You can't have your cake and eat it too Bene. If you want culture, you'll have to live in a state that rubs you the wrong way, hence why you lived in NYC and now NJ.



I lived in NYC because I pretty much had to, and I lived/live in NJ pretty much because I was born here and it's what I know (not the greatest of reason but likely the most common one everyone has).  But I'm definitely thinking about "escape" options, I just dont quite know where yet.  Hell, seems like 1/2 my graduating HS class has "fled" from NJ - it's a serious problem.



St. Bear said:


> *You get 80% of the powder  of UT with 40% of the crowds.  Lower cost of living, and there's summer  skiing not far away in Glacier Park.*



That sounds pretty awesome.


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## Smellytele (May 6, 2014)

To get into the nonpolitical/political talk - 
It seems people move to NH because they like the way of life or they think they do and the lower taxes. Then they get here and realize "hey there are no sidewalks, no thrash pick up? Hey why are the roads bumpy and some not paved? We Need sidewalks! We NEED thrash pick up! We NEED paved roads!" Well how do we pay for these things? We raise taxes and what happens to the way of life that they thought they liked?


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## Scruffy (May 6, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> That was my response.  You get 80% of the powder  of UT with 40% of the crowds.  Lower cost of living, and there's summer  skiing not far away in Glacier Park.






BenedictGomez said:


> That sounds pretty awesome.



 Did I mention the winter fog! Serious fog! Look up the number of sunny days per winter months. Look up snow ghosts.


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## Domeskier (May 6, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's fine, but for my final 2¢ on the matter to clarify, I never said "blame" and everything I said was entirely factual, not political (there's a rather huge difference).  If you point out that Clinton started NAFTA and Bush started the Patriot Act that's not called being "political", it's called "talking about stuff that actually happened".  The conversation related to affordability, and if we cant even have a friendly discussion about which places factually have higher taxes than other places for "fear" of pointing out which party may be in control, that's not really "politics", it's "political correctness".



I have no strong interest one way or the other in the local politics of New Hampshire, but "talking about stuff that actually happened," or "history," cannot and should not be divorced from political or moral or other normative forms of discourse.  The idea that normative discourse is purely prescriptive, a mere matter of opinion and neither true nor false is one of the more nefarious dogmas of scientific, philosophical and political thought since the early 20th century and you only have to look as far as the ridiculous and self-defeating cultural and moral relativisms of the politically correct crowd to see why.  Sure, certain facts under certain conditions may lack normative significance.  But to conclude from this that there is some strong and insurmountable gap between factual, historical and scientific discourse. on the one hand, and moral and political dicourse on the other, smacks of a kind of defeatism to say the least.


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> To get into the nonpolitical/political talk -
> It seems people move to NH because they like the way of life or they think they do and the lower taxes. Then they get here and realize "hey there are no sidewalks, no thrash pick up? Hey why are the roads bumpy and some not paved? We Need sidewalks! We NEED thrash pick up! We NEED paved roads!" Well how do we pay for these things? We raise taxes and what happens to the way of life that they thought they liked?



I've never experienced that.  My relatives in New Hampshire get more services from their town (trash pickup, leaf pickup, etc.).  Their roads are plowed better, and those roads are in no worse condition than in Vermont.  New Hampshire spends less money, but the brunt of that falls on social services.  They have always maintained their roads as well as any other state in this area.


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## x10003q (May 6, 2014)

A nice area to look is the Carson Valley just south of Carson City, NV. The area has 4 seasons, with a mild winter and hardly any snow(high-desert climate). It is less than an hour to Reno, NV, and the Reno Int Airport. Lake Tahoe is 1/2 hour away. San Francisco is about 4 hours away. Nevada does not have income tax. You can have a year round outdoor lifestyle with easy access to all the skiing that is on Lake Tahoe. You can enjoy California with out having to live in California. If the snow sucks at Tahoe it is less than an 8 hour drive to Salt lake City and about 9 hours to Sun Valley. Flights to SLC are a little longer than an hour from Reno and Reno International has only closed due to weather a few times in the last 20 years. Reno metro population is over 400,000 so there are probably some decent medical facilities.

Spokane, WA, is another consideration, but the weather is colder with more snow than I might want to deal with.

I doubt I will be able to convince my wife that either would be a good location for us.


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## bobbutts (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm not a huge city fan, so Sacramento may be tough, but Placerville and Camino look pretty ideal for me (at least on paper).  Small populations and winter average high temps in the 50's.  Both towns are on the doorstep to the Sierra Nevada.


Sac is a dump of a city but some of the outlying areas seem ok.  I know they have the most trees or whatever, but it's loaded with homeless and drug problems.  Placerville seems like it might be OK.  Minden/Gardnerville NV is a bit more rural beautiful spot at least the areas at the base of the Sierra and not a long ride to Kirkwood or Heavenly.

Of the places I've been, I'd move to Chamonix.  Gigantic awe inspiring mountains, skiing in every direction, lively international town.  I'd consider going blind to Innsbruck Austria maybe, sounds like an interesting city with great skiing.


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

I preferred Kitzbuhel to Innsbruck, but that's like debating between two fine wines.


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## Domeskier (May 6, 2014)

East Rutherford, NJ is showing some promise as a premier skiing destination.


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## Edd (May 6, 2014)

x10003q said:


> A nice area to look is the Carson Valley just south of Carson City, NV. The area has 4 seasons, with a mild winter and hardly any snow(high-desert climate). It is less than an hour to Reno, NV, and the Reno Int Airport. Lake Tahoe is 1/2 hour away. San Francisco is about 4 hours away. Nevada does not have income tax. You can have a year round outdoor lifestyle with easy access to all the skiing that is on Lake Tahoe. You can enjoy California with out having to live in California. If the snow sucks at Tahoe it is less than an 8 hour drive to Salt lake City and about 9 hours to Sun Valley. Flights to SLC are a little longer than an hour from Reno and Reno International has only closed due to weather a few times in the last 20 years. Reno metro population is over 400,000 so there are probably some decent medical facilities.



I'd give that area serious consideration but searches for employment that would suit me have not been encouraging. Fell in love with Tahoe the first time I went.  I'd like to try living in downtown Truckee. 


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## abc (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I preferred Kitzbuhel to Innsbruck, but that's like debating between two fine wines.


Kitzbuhel is a mountain 'village' while Innsbruck is definitely a city that happen to be situated in the mountains. 

Like Sacramento vs. Minden.


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## St. Bear (May 6, 2014)

Scruffy said:


> Did I mention the winter fog! Serious fog! Look up the number of sunny days per winter months. Look up snow ghosts.



Eh, it's not like I get goggle tans skiing in the Northeast.  If I have to concede something, I'd rather have it be temp and fog than snow and crowds.



Domeskier said:


> East Rutherford, NJ is showing some promise as a premier skiing destination.



Don't worry, there's still time for them to screw it up.


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## VTKilarney (May 6, 2014)

abc said:


> Kitzbuhel is a mountain 'village' while Innsbruck is definitely a city that happen to be situated in the mountains.
> 
> Like Sacramento vs. Minden.



I was thinking more about the terrain from the town itself.  Innsbruck has Nordpark, but this is not nearly the terrain that is accessible from Kitz. Innsbruck is a gorgeous city, though.


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## abc (May 6, 2014)

Well, the best skiing this side of the pond is probably Big Sky. But I doubt too many willingly "pick up and move" there. It's a boring purpose made "village" for the ski area. 

Kitz is a village before there's skiing. But the skiing there, while better than Innsbruck, doesn't particularly stand out among the Alps.


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## hammer (May 6, 2014)

Went to Innsbruck as a teen, main thing I remember is this view from the ski jump...


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## jimk (May 6, 2014)

The initial *no strings* premise of this thread makes a big difference compared to a considering the feasibility of really picking up and moving.  Aspen sounds good for no strings, great skiing, and a strong budget.  

I'm thinking about picking up and moving out West for a couple months next winter.  This is a much different scenario than a permanent relocation.  I'd keep my current residence near Wash DC.  Down here I've been skiing manmade hardpack for the most part the last ~50 years.  Top priority is packed powder or fresh powder in a reasonably hospitable climate.  The idea of doing a snowbird migration to a different excellent Western ski location every winter during retirement years is appealing for the terrain variety that would provide, but eventually buying a small condo at one good place is also appealing for convenience, economy, and a settled lodging situation.  

Considerations for next winter:  managing costs of ski passes and lodging including accommodating visits from family and friends, deciding to bring car/rent car/no car, keeping healthy for two straight months of skiing, making a connection with others so I'm not always skiing alone, maintaining responsibilities/paying bills on the homefront.  Ski town politics not much of a consideration for a temporary relocation.

I'm thinking CO, but in past chairlift discussions with two different older Nevada residents, one from Incline Village and one from Carson City, they both gushed over NV and mentioned huge tax advantages compared to CA.  Guy from Incline Village lived close to the Lake and was skiing Squaw when I met him.  He loved Tahoe summers as much as winters.  Met the guy from Carson City while skiing Heavenly and he talked about how affordable things were in Carson Valley and the milder temps around his house.  My concern with Tahoe is the variable winters and the crowds.  It's too beautiful for its own good.  Nice place to visit though.


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## Smellytele (May 6, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I've never experienced that.  My relatives in New Hampshire get more services from their town (trash pickup, leaf pickup, etc.).  Their roads are plowed better, and those roads are in no worse condition than in Vermont.  New Hampshire spends less money, but the brunt of that falls on social services.  They have always maintained their roads as well as any other state in this area.


I have lived in NH my whole life and in 7 or so towns never with trash pick up. Maybe the "cities" have it. It seems the people who move from Mass who have all the things I have mentioned want it when they move here too. Small towns have many unpaved roads. I have been to my fair share of town meetings and it happens this way. It seems that it is the same that happened to VT with people moving in to the state as well.


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## snoseek (May 6, 2014)

jimk said:


> The initial *no strings* premise of this thread makes a big difference compared to a considering the feasibility of really picking up and moving.  Aspen sounds good for no strings, great skiing, and a strong budget.
> 
> I'm thinking about picking up and moving out West for a couple months next winter.  This is a much different scenario than a permanent relocation.  I'd keep my current residence near Wash DC.  Down here I've been skiing manmade hardpack for the most part the last ~50 years.  Top priority is packed powder or fresh powder in a reasonably hospitable climate.  The idea of doing a snowbird migration to a different excellent Western ski location every winter during retirement years is appealing for the terrain variety that would provide, but eventually buying a small condo at one good place is also appealing for convenience, economy, and a settled lodging situation.
> 
> ...




Carson Valley is ridiculously close to Tahoe. Minden to Stagecoach base at the Heave islike 20 minutes. Gardnerville to Kirkwood less than an hour easily. Even Reno to North lake is close. real estate is still very cheap and taxes are low being in NV. Also hookers are legal, which comes in handy I would imagine being in NV. 

Also, there weather there is pretty fantastic.

The snow-yeah Tahoe is awfully dicey. They're due for a big year. The last 3 have been pretty awful as a whole. When its good its fucking grande, dense snow on actual steep angles....I'll that over thin Colorado blower over rocks anyday. If you're a weekend skier its busy but no worse than anywhere else (unless Montana or something). The bay area people have it rough but coming from the east its a snap. Ride the dipper lift on a sunny saturday and you'll wait, lap Gunbarrel and ski on all day. Same with chair ten at Kwood, most people are intimidated by ten.


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## jimk (May 7, 2014)

snoseek said:


> Carson Valley is ridiculously close to Tahoe. Minden to Stagecoach base at The Heave is like 20 minutes. Gardnerville to Kirkwood less than an hour easily...  coming from the east its a snap.  lap Gunbarrel and ski-on all day. Same with chair ten at Kwood, most people are intimidated by ten.



Gunbarrel:  

Chair Ten:


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

Minden's average high temperature in January is 18 degrees higher than where I live.  I could get used to that.  Only 18.7 inches of snow per year.  I'm okay with that too.  Leave the snow for the mountains.


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

For kicks I just looked at real estate listings in the Minden and Gardnerville areas.  Holy cow there are a lot of homes under foreclosure!


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## BenedictGomez (May 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> For kicks* I just looked at real estate listings in the Minden and Gardnerville areas.  Holy cow there are a lot of homes under foreclosure!*



Just wait until the next housing crash hits.  US home prices will continue to inch higher, but the long-term move will be them heading lower despite all the "experts" saying this is a great time to buy.  This recent rebound is a "head fake" - you heard it here first.


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## VTKilarney (May 8, 2014)

The real powder keg is interest rates.  If they go up, prices must come down.  And when you are near historical lows, guess what's very possible...

I read that the dip in housing prices did not result in prices being where they should be based on historical levels.  It was merely a partial correction of the extreme overpricing.


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## jimk (May 8, 2014)

Those of us living near big eastern cities like Boston or DC didn't see much of a drop in house prices in the 2006-09 timeframe like rest of the nation did.  And now my neigborhood about 5 miles from the White House has gone nuts again.  The increase in home values in just the last 18 months alone comes close to equalling the price of a 1 bdrm condo in CO.  
All I know is there are a ton of millennials that will want their piece of the American dream while Boomers like me move out and/or down size.  Being real close to urban work sites seems to be the Dream du jour.  
However, if telework ever goes HUGE that seems to me to have the potential to change everything about the real estate game.


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## abc (May 8, 2014)

Long term national average housing price may need to come down more. But that doesn't mean every local area will see the same drop. 

People are moving more and more towards cities these days. There's more than jobs in play (well, for those of you who don't live in the city anyway). The advantage of city includes transportation and health care infrastructure which are very very important as the population grow older and more frail. 

At some point not too far ahead, there will be some correction to the housing price even in the cities when interest rate goes up. But in long term, I see a lot of legitimate reason of housing price in cities staying on an upward slope, albeit via a seesaw path.


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## Smellytele (May 8, 2014)

abc said:


> Long term national average housing price may need to come down more. But that doesn't mean every local area will see the same drop.
> 
> People are moving more and more towards cities these days. There's more than jobs in play (well, for those of you who don't live in the city anyway). The advantage of city includes transportation and health care infrastructure which are very very important as the population grow older and more frail.
> 
> At some point not too far ahead, there will be some correction to the housing price even in the cities when interest rate goes up. But in long term, I see a lot of legitimate reason of housing price in cities staying on an upward slope, albeit via a seesaw path.



http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/why-americans-are-fleeing-the-suburbs-155653589.html


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## BenedictGomez (May 8, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> *The real powder keg is interest rates.  If they go up, prices must come down.  And when you are near historical lows, guess what's very possible...*
> 
> I read that the dip in housing prices did not result in prices being where they should be based on historical levels.  It was *merely a partial correction of the extreme overpricing.*



Correct on both counts.  

But there are additional reasons why home prices will decline (though the above are two big ones).  Babyboomer downsizing and/or death as well as other negative demographic trends which I will not get into because it would be viewed by the more sensitive here as "politics".  Additionally, we have very high unemployment and underemployment as well as stagnating to decreasing salaries.  Student loan debt is perhaps the next "bubble" to burst, fueled by government loans and unrealistically high college tuition rates.  This will lead to increasing debt loads on the 20s to early 30s set, who are critical to the housing market as the, "First-time home buyers" segment.  That segment will continue to decline at the same time as the babyboomers downsize.  Plus, there is still a crapload of OREO on bank's books, which most people arent even considering.  That will have a negative effect as well, as has the government's impeding the banks from seeking normal foreclosure proceedings.  We're now getting the first evidence that "foreign investors" who've been propping up the US Real Estate market are getting skittish and are no longer buying in droves.  And lets not forget inflation, which is coming to a town near you.  I could go on and on.  

Moral of the story is I would NOT buy a house in 2014.



jimk said:


> Those of us living near big eastern cities like Boston or DC didn't see much of a drop in house prices in the 2006-09 timeframe like rest of the nation did.  And now *my neigborhood about 5 miles from the White House has gone nuts again. *



Not surprising that DC and its' suburbs is the hottest part of the country.  It's where the politicians live and where a TON of the "Economic Stimulus" oxymoron money went.  You drive anywhere around Washington DC right now and it's like a BOOMTOWN.  There are tower cranes friggin' everywhere, new construction galore, increasing real estate prices, and plentiful jobs.


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## pcampbell (May 9, 2014)

I am pretty happy in Fayston VT.  If I could live anywhere, I'd probably live even closer to the mountains.... on the mountain side of the road so I could just ski everywhere.

Sure, if I could ski all day everyday I wouldn't mind bigger mountains    but in the end i have to  balance work family and ski.... 

Sadly... current plans are to move like 10 minutes farther away from the mountain (currently live 10 minutes to MRG, 5 to Sugarbush/Mt Ellen), but I guess you can't have everything in life. New location will be sunnier with some walkability, and that makes my wife happy, and might mean I Can steal the car to go ski more often with less guilt


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## Nick (May 12, 2014)

Anywhere? 

I dunno. I'd like to split time between multiple places if I didn't have to work and things like that. Time in Europe, time in Colorado, and I'll throw in some Hawaii for a change of pace.


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## mountainman (May 16, 2014)

Truckee.


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## HowieT2 (May 16, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Correct on both counts.
> 
> But there are additional reasons why home prices will decline (though the above are two big ones).  Babyboomer downsizing and/or death as well as other negative demographic trends which I will not get into because it would be viewed by the more sensitive here as "politics".  Additionally, we have very high unemployment and underemployment as well as stagnating to decreasing salaries.  Student loan debt is perhaps the next "bubble" to burst, fueled by government loans and unrealistically high college tuition rates.  This will lead to increasing debt loads on the 20s to early 30s set, who are critical to the housing market as the, "First-time home buyers" segment.  That segment will continue to decline at the same time as the babyboomers downsize.  Plus, there is still a crapload of OREO on bank's books, which most people arent even considering.  That will have a negative effect as well, as has the government's impeding the banks from seeking normal foreclosure proceedings.  We're now getting the first evidence that "foreign investors" who've been propping up the US Real Estate market are getting skittish and are no longer buying in droves.  And lets not forget inflation, which is coming to a town near you.  I could go on and on.
> 
> ...



Gee, you really know everything.  impressive.


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## HowieT2 (May 16, 2014)

pcampbell said:


> I am pretty happy in Fayston VT.  If I could live anywhere, I'd probably live even closer to the mountains.... on the mountain side of the road so I could just ski everywhere.
> 
> Sure, if I could ski all day everyday I wouldn't mind bigger mountains    but in the end i have to  balance work family and ski....
> 
> Sadly... current plans are to move like 10 minutes farther away from the mountain (currently live 10 minutes to MRG, 5 to Sugarbush/Mt Ellen), but I guess you can't have everything in life. New location will be sunnier with some walkability, and that makes my wife happy, and might mean I Can steal the car to go ski more often with less guilt



I'm hoping one day to be able to buy a place up there, but I think I would like to be east of 100.  I want to be within walking distance of the river and think its more full time residents over there.


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## Savemeasammy (May 16, 2014)

I don't know much about Montpellier, but it seems like it is within a reasonable distance of most of the northern vt ski areas.  Waterbury is good for that, too. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## snoseek (May 16, 2014)

I made the decision yesterday that in the fall I'm going back to South Lake. As much as I want to bitch about the past few winters there, its also the overall best place to spend the winter on a budget. Good people, good community, steep skiing, cheap rent, good plentiful MJ.


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## Savemeasammy (May 17, 2014)

Have you ever lived on the north shore?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## snoseek (May 17, 2014)

Savemeasammy said:


> Have you ever lived on the north shore?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



No but I'll sometimes day trip up there. I actually really like the south shore, prefer it in many ways. Either way wherever you are on that lake its all damn nice


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## bigbog (May 17, 2014)

mountainman said:


> Truckee.



+1
I love the big mountain, off-resort, scene of the West....  Am expanding the house, fwiw, but hopefully to sell, in Bangor, ME..???, once I land a job out West...but some place in BC or Alaska isn't off the map either..just need to update my flying and networking skills to the level of my flycasting skill....:lol:


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