# Jay Peak / Burke Sweepstakes



## Zand (Jun 6, 2018)

With both expected to be sold before the new season and the recent dominoes falling I thought this would be interesting to discuss.

I have to stick with my original gut feeling of Vail (I originally said this at least 3 months ago). But definitely a case can be made for quite a few companies.

Edit: Have to imagine Vail would take just Jay and sell Burke off to who knows what.


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## sull1102 (Jun 6, 2018)

If Peak wants to keep up with the big guys even a little bit then they might want to find a way to get both mountains. Yes, Peak is not in the greatest place financially, but I think things are better now than say a year or two years ago before the EB-5 funding came through at Snow. Now if they can find a way to finance the acquisition Jay and Burke both fit into their portfolio, for Burke they do already run Wildcat which has 0 bed base and cannot change that factor so they are used to some challenges while knowing how to utilize that new hotel. Jay would be another Mount Snow quality property and if they got things firing on all cylinders I can see Jay becoming the crown jewel for the company overall.

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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

I selected "other" as my choice.  My W.A.G. (Wild Ass Guess) is that by next ski season:

*Jay Peak *- bought by hedge fund

*Burke *- has no buyer*


*caveat being the hedge fund could be "forced" to take Burke if it wants Jay Peak, but likely only if a bidding war emerges


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## VTKilarney (Jun 7, 2018)

Burke is not expected to be sold before this season.  At a condo owner’s meeting, management said that Burke will take longer to sell than Jay.  They anticipated the receiver running Burke through the entirety of this coming ski season.

But who knows...  Things can change.


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## JDMRoma (Jun 7, 2018)

It would be sweet if Peaks bought them both !! Id certainly get more use out of my Ranger Pass !!


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## gregnye (Jun 7, 2018)

What's weird here is that Burke is actually the better off mountain infastructure wise. First, burke doesn't need any new lifts--everything has already been upgraded. Hpwever they are just so far out of the way that it's just worth driving the extra distance to Jay

I personally don't want Peaks buying Jay. It would then be overrun with Mt. Snow people. Also judging from the fact that Peaks hasn't invested anything into Attitash, I doubt they would do anything to make Jay a flagship resort. And that's bad because Jay desperately  needs lift improvements. I don't see Peaks going in and replacing the Bonnie chair anytime soon. Instead I predict all that would happen will be more crowds that would rather instagram "powder skiing" than people who actually wanna ski.


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## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2018)

I guess this should be a 2 part question. Who would you like to see buy them? Then who do you think will buy them?


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## Pez (Jun 7, 2018)

We could easily do another poll: Who will purchase Smugglers?


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## gregnye (Jun 7, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I guess this should be a 2 part question. Who would you like to see buy them? Then who do you think will buy them?



Not sure what company I would want to buy them. I kinda wish Jay and Burke could just be successful as independent resorts. If they did have to partner up, my perfect world would be Sugarbush being partners with them, as both mountains are similar vibes.

Another unpopular opinion, would be Jay Peak turning into Vermont's version of Cannon, as it is already basically the same thing (or was the same thing back in the day, before the waterpark was added). What I'm saying is: if no one wants to buy Jay, I'd be ok with the State of Vermont running it like NH runs Cannon, while contracting a business out to run the other things like the waterpark and hotels.


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## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

Not sure who will buy Burke, but I think Alterra may have big interest in Jay.  They would corner the Montreal market if they did, considering they already have Tremblant.  Both are quasi Eastern destination resorts too now (Tremblant always with the village and Jay now with the new lodging/alternate attractions).

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## gregnye (Jun 7, 2018)

What's really sad about Burke is that it's actually an ok mountain. If it were on the 93 corridor in NH around Waterville Valley it would probably be thriving. However because it's in the middle of nowhere and not as big as the other destination resorts, it is forgotten.


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## sull1102 (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> What's really sad about Burke is that it's actually an ok mountain. If it were on the 93 corridor in NH around Waterville Valley it would probably be thriving. However because it's in the middle of nowhere and not as big as the other destination resorts, it is forgotten.


And sadly there are dozens and dozens of NELSAPped areas with that exact problem, but they died off before the 80's. 

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## ss20 (Jun 7, 2018)

I think I'd have to know more about who owns the big mountains up in Canada to answer this question... My guess is one of the companies/hills up there buys Jay to secure themselves against future swings in the CAD/USD.


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## FBGM (Jun 7, 2018)

Hahahaha at people saying Peak is gonna but them. Peak has no money. All their money is funny money. They are upside down in debt up to their cocks. Look at their info. Their company net worth is less then the most recent vail purchase of Stevens Pass. Maybe if they sell some more drugs or ask the kooks for more funny money they will be good.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

If someone bought Jay Peak and added it to a mega pass it would be the final nail in the coffin for weekend skiing there.  The place is already overrun on a bunch of weekends.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> *I'd be ok with the State of Vermont running it like NH runs Cannon*



I've never been to Cannon, but if it's anything like the horrendous way government totally mismanages the New York ski areas in Keystone Cop fashion, I wouldn't be enthusiastic for that.  

Government is rarely the answer to best run......... well....... anything.


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## JDMRoma (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've never been to Cannon, but if it's anything like the horrendous way government totally mismanages the New York ski areas in Keystone Cop fashion, I wouldn't be enthusiastic for that.
> 
> Government is rarely the answer to best run......... well....... anything.



Yup Cannon Sucks........dont go there ! All miss managed by the State !


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## gregnye (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've never been to Cannon, but if it's anything like the horrendous way government totally mismanages the New York ski areas in Keystone Cop fashion, I wouldn't be enthusiastic for that.
> 
> Government is rarely the answer to best run......... well....... anything.



I've never been to the state run ski areas of New York so I can't compare. Cannon seems to be run ok. But they don't have any hotels so it's literally just running the lifts. Is it the best ski area ever--no. But as locals say around there: "Keep Cannon shitty". Because that keeps the crowds down, the prices low (lower).

If New Hampshire's government, a republican state whose motto is "live free or die" can operate a ski area, I can't see why the citizens of Vermont wouldn't be ok with a similar operation at Jay Peak if managed correctly. As for Burke, yeah who knows.

Maybe, in this hypothetical scenario where Vermont runs Jay Peak, we could see a Cannon-Jay pass, which I'd buy!


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## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I've never been to Cannon, but if it's anything like the horrendous way government totally mismanages the New York ski areas in Keystone Cop fashion, I wouldn't be enthusiastic for that.
> 
> Government is rarely the answer to best run......... well....... anything.



Cannon has been run better in the last few years with an influx of money from the FSC and also the leasing of Sunapee (now to Vail) has helped.


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## Killingtime (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I've never been to the state run ski areas of New York so I can't compare. Cannon seems to be run ok. But they don't have any hotels so it's literally just running the lifts. Is it the best ski area ever
> 
> Of the three NYS ORDA resorts, Gore is terrific, Belleayre is meh and I'll most likely never be back and I haven't skied Whiteface yet.


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## Jully (Jun 7, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I think I'd have to know more about who owns the big mountains up in Canada to answer this question... My guess is one of the companies/hills up there buys Jay to secure themselves against future swings in the CAD/USD.



RCR is the big player up there with St. Anne, Stoneham, and some in the Canadian Rockies. Know nothing about their financials. They just struck that deal with Vail this offseason, so they're trying to drive more business their way from America. Not sure if running Jay is the best way to do that though. 

I don't think there is another major multi mountain operator up there.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> What's weird here is that Burke is actually the better off mountain infastructure wise. First, burke doesn't need any new lifts--everything has already been upgraded. Hpwever they are just so far out of the way that it's just worth driving the extra distance to Jay
> 
> I personally don't want Peaks buying Jay. It would then be overrun with Mt. Snow people. Also judging from the fact that Peaks hasn't invested anything into Attitash, I doubt they would do anything to make Jay a flagship resort. And that's bad because Jay desperately  needs lift improvements. I don't see Peaks going in and replacing the Bonnie chair anytime soon. Instead I predict all that would happen will be more crowds that would rather instagram "powder skiing" than people who actually wanna ski.



It is funny to hear someone say Burke “is so far out of the way” compared to Jay!

It is 3 hours from Boston. All interstate driving except for the last 8 miles. 


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## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> It is funny to hear someone say Burke “is so far out of the way” compared to Jay!
> 
> It is 3 hours from Boston. All interstate driving except for the last 8 miles.
> 
> ...



I was going to say the same thing. Right of of 91...


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## VTKilarney (Jun 7, 2018)

I think that the State of Vermont should purchase Jay.  They can sell just a few tickets a day and hold a lottery to determine who wins the tickets.  This will allow the Burton family to ski all they want at a nearly private mountain.


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## Edd (Jun 7, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I was going to say the same thing. Right of of 91...



Yeah, Saddleback’s dilemma is more understandable than what’s happening with Burke. I’d think the market would be there which always brings me back to the marketing effort, whatever it is.


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## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that the State of Vermont should purchase Jay.  They can sell just a few tickets a day and hold a lottery to determine who wins the tickets.  This will allow the Burton family to ski all they want at a nearly private mountain.



lol


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## gregnye (Jun 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> It is funny to hear someone say Burke “is so far out of the way” compared to Jay!
> 
> It is 3 hours from Boston. All interstate driving except for the last 8 miles.
> 
> ...



It really is though. Yes it's three hours from Boston to Burke, but three hours from Boston could also get you to Killington (a significantly larger mountain) although that requires a lot more local road driving.

Also, to get to Burke requires you to pass by so many ski areas. You must pass Waterville, Loon, and Cannon, all of which are about the same size or larger than Burke. Going through Franconia Notch can also be slow in the winter, so you might as well just stop and ski Cannon.

If coming from Connecticut on the 91 corridor it's even worse. Now you are ignoring/driving by so many larger resorts to go to a smaller one. You've passed the 91 turnoffs for Mt. Snow, Stratton, Magic, Bromley, Okemo, Killington, Pico. You've ignored the fact that you could turn onto 89 and go to Stowe or Sugarbush in the same amount of time.

It's easy to see why Burke might not the first choice unless you live on the northern side of Franconia Notch.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Also, to get to Burke requires you to pass by so many ski areas.



Spot on.  It's not driving distance that predominantly hurts Burke, it's what you have to drive by in order to get to Burke.


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## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Spot on.  It's not driving distance that predominantly hurts Burke, it's what you have to drive by in order to get to Burke.



While all true, the original post didn't mention that fact and only said it was because it so far out of the way. Hence the reason why TB mentioned its not really that far out of the way.


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## AdironRider (Jun 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> It is funny to hear someone say Burke “is so far out of the way” compared to Jay!
> 
> It is 3 hours from Boston. All interstate driving except for the last 8 miles.
> 
> ...



And during that three hours you pass how many ski areas that are pretty much right off the highway? 

Burke just isn't big enough to draw more than a day trip here and there for "how out of the way it is" in comparison to upteen other hills. At least I think thats the reference he is trying to make. 

Jay at least has the cloud to justify itself, and their visits still probably pale in comparison to most of the major players.

Alterra makes the most sense to me for picking up Jay. I fear Burke is in for another one of those dark periods though...


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## tumbler (Jun 7, 2018)

I think Jay will be bought by a single operator type that wants to get into the resort and ski business.  Jay is well known in the ski community, like on this board, but not well known among the seldom skier- think day tickets.  The ones who do know it think its too far away and cold.  The ski area ownership model has changed dramitcally since the Feds raided and put it into recievership.  At that time there were more owners before Big Vail and Alterra, etc.  I don't see them having an interest in it.  Perhaps the Canadian company mentioned before but I think it will be a single operator.

As for Burke it feels like it might be in for some rough times but that a single operator would be interested in it.  The hotel is too good to pass up.  They would really need to sink a ton of money in marketing for commercials in the Boston area so people hear the name.  I feel that there are some poeple out there that see the Sugarbush model with Win and would like to give it a shot.

There is no way the State of Vermont is going to buy it and operate it.  They have plenty of other things to be spending money on and the optics of buying it after being in bed with Q would be very bad.


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## Zand (Jun 7, 2018)

The thing about Burke that might make it more attractive to a buyer is the fact it needs next to nothing done with it. 2 new high speed quads that service the entire hill, a brand new T-bar for the race slope, and best yet, a brand new giant hotel to put people in. Other than typical snowmaking/grooming upgrades (which, face it, they really need but have gotten by without), a new buyer could come in and not spend a dime on the place for a couple years and it would probably be perfectly fine.

Who knows, maybe this is a good time for BMA to get back into the fray, Probably wouldn't be much to acquire it and they know everything about it like the back of their hand. Find someone else to run the hotel and they're all set.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2018)

mbedle said:


> While all true, the original post didn't mention that fact and only said it was because it so far out of the way. Hence the reason why TB mentioned its not really that far out of the way.



Exactly. I’m not sure if the poster has ever been to Burke. It’s easy to get to. 


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## gregnye (Jun 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. I’m not sure if the poster has ever been to Burke. It’s easy to get to.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I've been to Burke and honestly I'd rather just keep driving to Jay. Or since the drive is three hours anyway I'd rather just go to Killington. Killington is also fewer miles on my car at 159 rather than 187.


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## Edd (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I've been to Burke and honestly I'd rather just keep driving to Jay. Or since the drive is three hours anyway I'd rather just go to Killington.



Clearly most people agree with you. The lower crowds at Burke would be of high value to me if I were a VT skier. If the snowpack at Burke were more on par with K and Jay I’d go with Burke.


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## benski (Jun 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Exactly. I’m not sure if the poster has ever been to Burke. It’s easy to get to.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I have never done it, but it does seam to be a bit of a pain for such a small mountain, without something exciting to compensate, like Mad River and Magic with there unique character, and none of the insane views wildcat has.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 7, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I've been to Burke and honestly I'd rather just keep driving to Jay. Or since the drive is three hours anyway I'd rather just go to Killington. Killington is also fewer miles on my car at 159 rather than 187.


Depends on the day of the week.  For me? Snow conditions being reasonably equal? On Saturday or Sunday, I'll take Burke every single time

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## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2018)

Jay has Montreal - Burke does not. 
I would much rather ski Burke than K snow conditions being reasonably equal any day of the week. only 20 minutes difference by google maps but in reality probably less as getting to Burke is mostly highway and I don't have to drive the shitty route 4.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> *I think that the State of Vermont should purchase Jay.
> 
> They can sell just a few tickets a day and hold a lottery to determine who wins the tickets.  This will allow the Burton family to ski all they want at a nearly private mountain.*



And it will be the safest ski lottery in all of America, because it will be the only one government run & audited!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2018)

benski said:


> I have never done it, but it does seam to be a bit of a pain for such a small mountain, without something exciting to compensate, like Mad River and Magic with there unique character, and none of the insane views wildcat has.



You’re missing out. Fast lifts, great terrain, no crowds, good value, and stunning views. 


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## benski (Jun 8, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> You’re missing out. Fast lifts, great terrain, no crowds, good value, and stunning views.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Its hard to do, Unless I go during winter break, I would have to drive to Binghamton, I would just about fed up with the drive by the time i would reach either Killington or Magic, and 4 hours or 3.3 respectively.


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## JDMRoma (Jun 8, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> You’re missing out. Fast lifts, great terrain, no crowds, good value, and stunning views.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




Lets not forget some really good Glades too !!


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## Smellytele (Jun 8, 2018)

JDMRoma said:


> Lets not forget some really good Glades too !!



Love the glades there. The slog out of the East Bowl sucks but still love the place.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2018)

JDMRoma said:


> Lets not forget some really good Glades too !!



Absolutely 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 8, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I was going to say the same thing. Right of of 91...



Same here... but why correct everyone and crowd the place out?!


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2018)

Is the new Burke hotel on the same level as the Tram Haus? I’ve stayed at Jay but not Burke. 


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 8, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I've been to Burke and honestly I'd rather just keep driving to Jay. Or since the drive is three hours anyway I'd rather just go to Killington. Killington is also fewer miles on my car at 159 rather than 187.



28 mile difference wouldn't bother me, but if it's a weekend, I'd rather not ski with 5-8k of my "best friends" at Kmart. I leave that for mid-week. Weekends, I'd choose Burke. (...and not Jay, for the same reasons)


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2018)

“Crowd concern” is a customer  differentiator that is rarely discussed. That’s because most folks just tolerate the crowds as a fact of life. This is made easier if you’re from Boston/NYC kind of places. It’s a conundrum. Burke suffers because it’s the kind of place I’d prefer to ski. 

Assuming the hotel is nice enough, does anyone think it’s possible for Burke to go high end private-feeling-ski-area? Emphasize the privacy and terrain quality and simplicity of skiing Burke? I can’t shake the feeling that there’s something to be found there. Burke is so good it deserves to succeed somehow. 


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## VTKilarney (Jun 8, 2018)

I just don't think that there is a magic answer for Burke.  If there was, someone would have thought of it by now.  Burke is not quite big enough and not quite near enough to draw enough skiers in order to break even.

I am REALLY curious if the hotel is breaking even.  They had rooms available for MLK weekend (at least when I checked a day or two before), and I find it very hard to believe that it is selling many rooms mid-week.  And of course there are a couple of months during shoulder season when nobody is staying there.

On the other hand, Burke is very lucky that other people have dumped money into it.  It has MUCH better infrastructure than just about any other struggling mountain.

But just what is the path to viability?  I'm really not sure.


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## Edd (Jun 8, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> But just what is the path to viability?  I'm really not sure.



That’s frustrating. You and I don’t agree on much but I trust your take on Burke. Really bums me out, even though I’m not invested there.


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## crank (Jun 8, 2018)

Edd said:


> Is the new Burke hotel on the same level as the Tram Haus? I’ve stayed at Jay but not Burke.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone




I'd say yes.  Have stayed at both.  We stayed there season before last when it was first opened.  Killer deals over Christmas week and at last minute.  Hotel was very nice, restaurants were brand new and so was the service staff so not so great at the.  One funny thing was the back deck, facing the slopes is heated.  Everything except the ramp up and down from the hot tub which made for one icy, super slick walkway.


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 8, 2018)

Sweepstakes or FIRE sale at this point?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 8, 2018)

DoublePlanker said:


> Sweepstakes or file sale at this point?



File sale?


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## machski (Jun 9, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I just don't think that there is a magic answer for Burke.  If there was, someone would have thought of it by now.  Burke is not quite big enough and not quite near enough to draw enough skiers in order to break even.
> 
> I am REALLY curious if the hotel is breaking even.  They had rooms available for MLK weekend (at least when I checked a day or two before), and I find it very hard to believe that it is selling many rooms mid-week.  And of course there are a couple of months during shoulder season when nobody is staying there.
> 
> ...


Not that it would be a huge amount of the shoulder seasons, but I wonder if the hotel gets any influx from Lyndon State parents/families for graduation and maybe even back to college move in weekends.  Have to think there is some of that, lodging options in Lyndon itself are weak at best.

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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2018)

What's the condo development scene like lately at Burke?  Seems to me for the mountain to be viable, it needs a greater critical mass of regulars.  

Also, does it make sense for it to be open 7 days a week?  Especially when it's part of a package deal with Jay?   I don't think I'd be too upset as a passholder there if they were closed Tuesday and Wednesday and I had to go up to Jay those days.  

Maybe the school could concede to just having the training hill and lift open those days.  

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## mtbskiNE (Jun 9, 2018)

machski said:


> Not that it would be a huge amount of the shoulder seasons, but I wonder if the hotel gets any influx from Lyndon State parents/families for graduation and maybe even back to college move in weekends.  Have to think there is some of that, lodging options in Lyndon itself are weak at best.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



This is actually spot on re:the college. I was up there mtbing a few weekends ago and it was the same weekend as Lyndon State graduate. Saturday night the hotel was sold out. 

I've never skied Burke (for many of the reasons noted here) but I'm a big mountain biker and East Burke/Kingdom Trails are easily the best mtbing trails in the Northeast.  They've gotten noticeably more popular/crowded over the past few years (a ton of Quebecois) and, at least on Saturday nights, the hotel does a great business from mountain bikers (I've seen it sell out before on just a typical summer weekend).  I think the existence of Kingdom Trails definitely gives the hotel more of a chance of hitting break even was it really opens it up to ~3 seasons (mud season and late fall are probably still tough). Burke also has a pretty extensive lift-serviced downhill network which supplements the Kingdom Trails (A day ticket is $40), although I doubt thats much of a money-maker. The hotel is very nice and the pub in it is great in the summer when you can sit outside and have a beer overlooking the Willoughby Gap.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 9, 2018)

mtbskiNE said:


> This is actually spot on re:the college. I was up there mtbing a few weekends ago and it was the same weekend as Lyndon State graduate. Saturday night the hotel was sold out.
> 
> I've never skied Burke (for many of the reasons noted here) but I'm a big mountain biker and East Burke/Kingdom Trails are easily the best mtbing trails in the Northeast.  They've gotten noticeably more popular/crowded over the past few years (a ton of Quebecois) and, at least on Saturday nights, the hotel does a great business from mountain bikers (I've seen it sell out before on just a typical summer weekend).  I think the existence of Kingdom Trails definitely gives the hotel more of a chance of hitting break even was it really opens it up to ~3 seasons (mud season and late fall are probably still tough). Burke also has a pretty extensive lift-serviced downhill network which supplements the Kingdom Trails (A day ticket is $40), although I doubt thats much of a money-maker. The hotel is very nice and the pub in it is great in the summer when you can sit outside and have a beer overlooking the Willoughby Gap.



Good points.  As a serious mountain biker who knows the crowd, do you think that the hotel is set up for mountain bikers?


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 9, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Also, does it make sense for it to be open 7 days a week?  Especially when it's part of a package deal with Jay?   I don't think I'd be too upset as a passholder there if they were closed Tuesday and Wednesday and I had to go up to Jay those days.



If I owned trailside, I'd be pissed.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 9, 2018)

I'd be more pissed if I owned trailside and Burke went the way of Saddleback.   

I just see it always struggling to be sustainable as a 7 day a week operation.  Seems a Pico or Magic type schedule makes sense there. 

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## from_the_NEK (Jun 11, 2018)

Who knows what is going to happen here. Jay is obviously the more attractive property. However, on the Burke side, I have to wonder if the Summer season with weddings and MTB is becoming more profitable than the winter season (Way lower costs to operate). That might make the resort attractive to an entity that is currently not involved in the ski resort game. Would a luxery hotel operation like Omni Resorts be interested adding a biking destination (that also happens to have skiing) as part of their portfolio.


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## Smellytele (Jun 11, 2018)

from_the_NEK said:


> Who knows what is going to happen here. Jay is obviously the more attractive property. However, on the Burke side, I have to wonder if the Summer season with weddings and MTB is becoming more profitable than the winter season (Way lower costs to operate). That might make the resort attractive to an entity that is currently not involved in the ski resort game. Would a luxery hotel operation like Omni Resorts be interested adding a biking destination (that also happens to have skiing) as part of their portfolio.



How many weddings are held at Burke?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> How many weddings are held at Burke?



Not too many...yet.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 11, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> How many weddings are held at Burke?



Quite a few. I think they have three locations (base lodge, mid-burke lodge, and outdoor weddings on Lower Dipper at the Pavilion). I'm not sure if they can host three separate weddings at a time but I know they have at least one almost every weekend this summer/early fall. However, Burke is also very close to a lot of off mountain wedding venues (Tempson Barn, Inn and Mtn View, and Pavilion in the Pines). Burke benefits a lot from its proximity to these as the nearest nice hotel, use of the large seating capacity in the restaurants for rehearsal dinners, and the ballroom(s) for receptions.


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## AdironRider (Jun 11, 2018)

I doubt many will. What would keep someone from holding one down the street, at a much more VT like farm with the same views, probably for less and you get much more of a custom experience? They'll get some by being a second option. A great wedding is still probably just an average weekend during ski season revenue wise. 

What do you guys think Burke is even worth? It can't be much more than Catamount or Wildcat. Id put the number at 5 million. Whoever picks it up needs to for a song for the financial bath they will take for YEARS, before its ever profitable.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 11, 2018)

Checking Burke's website, they could probably make it _*just a little easier*_ to find out about weddings at the mountain. I had to back out of the site and then Google it. And then the page for it is pretty underwhelming.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> I doubt many will. What would keep someone from holding one down the street, at a much more VT like farm with the same views, probably for less and you get much more of a custom experience? They'll get some by being a second option. A great wedding is still probably just an average weekend during ski season revenue wise.
> 
> What do you guys think Burke is even worth? It can't be much more than Catamount or Wildcat. Id put the number at 5 million. Whoever picks it up needs to for a song for the financial bath they will take for YEARS, before its ever profitable.



Depends on if the sale includes the hotel or not.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2018)

from_the_NEK said:


> Checking Burke's website, they could probably make it _*just a little easier*_ to find out about weddings at the mountain. I had to back out of the site and then Google it. And then the page for it is pretty underwhelming.



Yes.  That is what happens when this guy was your manager for too long:  







They do need to clean-up the website and make it easier to figure out who does what.  They also need to fire up their marketing/special events department.


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## AdironRider (Jun 11, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Depends on if the sale includes the hotel or not.



I put my number at 5 million including the hotel. You are asking whoever buys it to buy it on hopes it will turn a profit. It never has and has proven how many times over to fail? I think we are on round 4 or 5 now right? 

That hotel needs more heads in beds than 60,000 skier visits will provide to not be a boat anchor financially.


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## mbedle (Jun 11, 2018)

If they end up selling both of these resorts, including all the hotels and lodges, isn't that going to end up as a massive loss to all of the owners? If I was them, I would try to find an operator and keep the ownership. They would basically become a REIT, with a lease back to own operator. In the longterm that would be a better return on their investments. Maybe the Mueller kids would be interested in doing that???


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## Smellytele (Jun 11, 2018)

mbedle said:


> If they end up selling both of these resorts, including all the hotels and lodges, isn't that going to end up as a massive loss to all of the owners? If I was them, I would try to find an operator and keep the ownership. They would basically become a REIT, with a lease back to own operator. In the longterm that would be a better return on their investments. Maybe the Mueller kids would be interested in doing that???


owners of what?


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 11, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> *What do you guys think Burke is even worth? .... Id put the number at 5 million.*



I'll take the Under.


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## AdironRider (Jun 11, 2018)

Yeah, you are probably right. I put 5 mill just on the off chance that it becomes a rich guy's play thing. Which everyone at Burke really needs to hope happens, because anyone buying it to run it as a profitable business is screwed.


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## mbedle (Jun 12, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> owners of what?



The investors will own everything, once all of the assets are transferred from Quiros. That includes, the land, lifts, hotels, water park, lodges, and all of the other properties/houses Quiros forfeited.


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## Smellytele (Jun 12, 2018)

mbedle said:


> The investors will own everything, once all of the assets are transferred from Quiros. That includes, the land, lifts, hotels, water park, lodges, and all of the other properties/houses Quiros forfeited.



Which investors? The eb-5 people?


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## mbedle (Jun 12, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Which investors? The eb-5 people?



Yes, the eb-5 investors (Phases 2 - 6 will benefit from the sale of Jay Peak and Phase 8 will benefit from the sale of Burke) are the owners of all of the assets, in a sense that all of the profits from the sale of the resorts will be distributed to each of the investors.  The Phase 1 investors are getting paid back the remaining balance of their "loan" to Jay Peak with money from the RJ settlement. The Phase 7 (anc-bio) investors are getting their $500,000 returned to them, also with the settlement money from RJ. What I was thinking is that there is no way these two resorts will sell for enough money to return the $500,000 to each of the Phase 2-6 and 8 investors. Maybe I got all wrong.


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## Smellytele (Jun 12, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Yes, the eb-5 investors (Phases 2 - 6 will benefit from the sale of Jay Peak and Phase 8 will benefit from the sale of Burke) are the owners of all of the assets, in a sense that all of the profits from the sale of the resorts will be distributed to each of the investors.  The Phase 1 investors are getting paid back the remaining balance of their "loan" to Jay Peak with money from the RJ settlement. The Phase 7 (anc-bio) investors are getting their $500,000 returned to them, also with the settlement money from RJ. What I was thinking is that there is no way these two resorts will sell for enough money to return the $500,000 to each of the Phase 2-6 and 8 investors. Maybe I got all wrong.



Did any get and keep their green cards?


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## mbedle (Jun 12, 2018)

Yes, a lot of the investors have already received their green cards.


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## FBGM (Jun 16, 2018)

Thanks Obama

With the new wall being built between us and number 1 enemy Canada, this should cut skier visits to these resorts


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## sull1102 (Jun 16, 2018)

I know you're just trolling, BUT in time Jay might see a dip in business if the current administration continues down this path they're on. 

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 16, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> I know you're just trolling, BUT in time Jay might see a dip in business if the current administration continues down this path they're on.



Jay Peak accepts the CAD at par, so if the CAD continues to drop against a stronger dollar it's the hill that will take it on the chin.  As for the Canadian, declining oil prices are a much bigger threat as Canada as a nation is WAY too leveraged to the price of oil for its' economy.


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## slatham (Aug 14, 2018)

Was there any final tally on this poll? Seems even more relevant now with Goldberg indicating Jay Peak to be sold by next summer, but Burke on hold.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 14, 2018)

slatham said:


> Was there any final tally on this poll? Seems even more relevant now with Goldberg indicating Jay Peak to be sold by next summer, but Burke on hold.



https://vtdigger.org/2018/08/13/rec...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-9860f9c9db-405558657


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