# Steepest Groomers



## kingslug (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm not a fan of groomed runs but skiing in the east..it's a fact of life that you will have to stick to them once in a while. With all this snow, rain, freeze, cycle, venturing off them can be damn near impossible at times. To make things interesting I try to at least find the steep ones, gets the heart beating. 
So my question is: Where have you skied truly steep groomers? 
Whiteface, Upper Cloudspin is about as steep as I have found in the east.
Squaw Valley has probably the steepest groomed runs in the world, as I found out Wednesday. I didn't think they could winch up a cat on things that steep...but I guess they can. I''l post pics in my TR.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 8, 2008)

I think Hayride and Liftline at Stowe are some of the steepest groomers in the East..They're both good for Mad Steezy speed.


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## Greg (Mar 8, 2008)

kingslug said:


> With all this snow, rain, freeze, cycle, venturing off them can be damn near impossible at times. To make things interesting I try to at least find the steep ones, gets the heart beating.



I try to avoid steep groomers for all the reasons you state for skiing them. Icy death slides are not fun in my book.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2008)

White Nitro at Sugarloaf.  













White Heat at Sunday River.


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## RISkier (Mar 8, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I think Hayride and Liftline at Stowe are some of the steepest groomers in the East..They're both good for Mad Steezy speed.



They're the steepest I've skied in the East but there are a lot of places I've not skied.


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## campgottagopee (Mar 8, 2008)

Whiteface; upper Cloudspin
Gore; The Rumor

Bought the steeps 2 I've skied that are groomed


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 8, 2008)

It may not be the steepest but they run the Citizens downhill at Jay Peak on the Haynes trail and people exceed 80mph..


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## riverc0il (Mar 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> I try to avoid steep groomers for all the reasons you state for skiing them. Icy death slides are not fun in my book.


+1


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2008)

Yeah, Liftline at Stowe is quite steep....a really nice run first thing in the morning....











Whenever I have been there, it has been a great, solid run and is nice and steep.  Very satisfying run overall in my book...


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## ALLSKIING (Mar 8, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> +1


+2


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2008)

I like steep groomed runs...but you have to ski them early...that is the caveat.  Sometimes, especially with White Heat which can turn into a sheet of ice, I'd wish that patrol would rope them at noon or so.  

I have skied Upper FIS after it has been winched.  Now THAT is an experience.  Win has also had Exterminator winched.  

That said, I am planning (fingers crossed) to go to Sugarbush tomorrow...it's been WAY too long since I have been back....but I am so stoked that April will be there!!!


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## kingslug (Mar 8, 2008)

Funny thing is that our eastern groomers can be harder than the steeper western groomers. I found no ice at all on the ones at Squaw, they would have been death slides. 
I wonder what the limit a winch cat has?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Funny thing is that our eastern groomers can be harder than the steeper western groomers. I found no ice at all on the ones at Squaw, they would have been death slides.
> I wonder what the limit a winch cat has?



Well, I think that part of the problem with the east is that those steep runs rely on snowmaking for cover...and when that compresses after many days it can turn to ice easily.  

And as for the winch cats, I don't know...I know that they are used for the steepest runs at Killington, Sugarloaf, and Sunday River.  Hell, they groom White Heat pretty much every night.


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## kingslug (Mar 8, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, I think that part of the problem with the east is that those steep runs rely on snowmaking for cover...and when that compresses after many days it can turn to ice easily.
> 
> And as for the winch cats, I don't know...I know that they are used for the steepest runs at Killington, Sugarloaf, and Sunday River.  Hell, they groom White Heat pretty much every night.



I figure it probably gets dangerous after 35 degrees. Read a funny story about the one and only time they tried to groom the Hobacks at JH. The cat went airborn for over 200 feet. Management forced the guy to do it. " you satisfied" was all he said after. Never tried again!


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 8, 2008)

kingslug said:


> I figure it probably gets dangerous after 35 degrees. Read a funny story about the one and only time they tried to groom the Hobacks at JH. The cat went airborn for over 200 feet. Management forced the guy to do it. " you satisfied" was all he said after. Never tried again!



Wow..The hobacks at J-Hole would be a really fast groomer..scary fast


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## kingslug (Mar 8, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wow..The hobacks at J-Hole would be a really fast groomer..scary fast



Go to Squaw...I think you will like it. Most hairball place I have EVER been, and I've been to JH many times. JH has better back country, Squaw's insanity can be found right off any chair.


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## ta&idaho (Mar 8, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Funny thing is that our eastern groomers can be harder than the steeper western groomers. I found no ice at all on the ones at Squaw, they would have been death slides.



Agreed.  Even moderately steep icy groomers can be harder than the steepest soft/good snow groomers, IMHO.  I tend to find any form of refrozen snow (icy groomers, hard crust, death coral, etc.) to be harder than pretty much any combination of conditions or terrain with soft/good snow, but maybe I'm just a pampered wimp from the west.  Maybe I could learn how to ski these kind of conditions, but I don't really seem to have any appetite for it.



kingslug said:


> I wonder what the limit a winch cat has?



Don't know about the limit, but I think winch cats can groom some pretty steep runs.  This resort's website says 40 degrees: http://www.skisilverstar.com/about/new/silverstarmag_winch_cat.htm.


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## kingslug (Mar 8, 2008)

Some of the runs I went down felt 40 degrees, you look straight down them. Fun!!!!!


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## KingM (Mar 8, 2008)

Do you guys really think FIS is steeper than Upper Organ Grinder? It doesn't feel that way to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'll ski the steeps, but not if they're icy. I don't like the combination of not being sure that I can stop and knowing I'll just keep falling if I can't.


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## Plowboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Back in the early 80's there was a guy named Nellie who would groom FIS(Bush) without a winch. He would do 2 shots of whisky before hand.

Yes, it is steeper than Grinder.


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## snoseek (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm not too cool to say I like some steep groomers in the East. Avalanche, white nitro, vortex, good stuff. Sometimes this is what you have to ski if you want steeps after freeze thaw. Great stuff to warm up on too.


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## campgottagopee (Mar 8, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I'm not too cool to say I like some steep groomers in the East. Avalanche, white nitro, vortex, good stuff. Sometimes this is what you have to ski if you want steeps after freeze thaw. Great stuff to warm up on too.



I luv steep groomers---wicked fun stuff


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## Mildcat (Mar 8, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> I luv steep groomers---wicked fun stuff



I agree. I may not be the most graceful skier on the way down but I'll have a huge smile on my face at the bottom. :grin:


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## Brettski (Mar 8, 2008)

Floods Hill, South Orange


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## Greg (Mar 8, 2008)

KingM said:


> Do you guys really think FIS is steeper than Upper Organ Grinder? It doesn't feel that way to me, but maybe I'm wrong.



I never skied FIS, but it sure looks steeper. I never really thought Organgrinder was all that steep in the first place.


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## Newpylong (Mar 8, 2008)

In the late 90's we used to run GS on Exterminator all the time... Now that was one hairy course, especially with the double fall line. I don't remember it needing to be winched though when they groomed it?

At the time the GMX was removed, so we would also run Slalom on Cliffs. Also hairy....





thetrailboss said:


> I like steep groomed runs...but you have to ski them early...that is the caveat.  Sometimes, especially with White Heat which can turn into a sheet of ice, I'd wish that patrol would rope them at noon or so.
> 
> I have skied Upper FIS after it has been winched.  Now THAT is an experience.  Win has also had Exterminator winched.
> 
> That said, I am planning (fingers crossed) to go to Sugarbush tomorrow...it's been WAY too long since I have been back....but I am so stoked that April will be there!!!


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## Newpylong (Mar 8, 2008)

KingM said:


> Do you guys really think FIS is steeper than Upper Organ Grinder?



Much.


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## RISkier (Mar 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> I never skied FIS, but it sure looks steeper. I never really thought Organgrinder was all that steep in the first place.



I'd agree about Organgrinder.  IMO, it's definately not as steep as either Liftline or Hayride at Stowe.  That said, it was very scraped when I "skied" it.  Conditions make a HUGE difference.  Last weekend we went to B'East.  In the morning Flying Cloud and Upper Competition were skiing very nice.  We decided to take a run down Upper Comp (which I'd describe as a real dark blue but certainly not in the category of steepest groomed runs in the East) about 2:30 and it was a completely different animal.


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## andyzee (Mar 8, 2008)

RISkier said:


> I'd agree about Organgrinder. IMO, it's definately not as steep as either Liftline or Hayride at Stowe. That said, it was very scraped when I "skied" it. Conditions make a HUGE difference. Last weekend we went to B'East. In the morning Flying Cloud and Upper Competition were skiing very nice. We decided to take a run down Upper Comp (which I'd describe as a real dark blue but certainly not in the category of steepest groomed runs in the East) about 2:30 and it was a completely different animal.


 

Organgrinder is more like a blue run, Upper FIS is pretty steep.


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## andyzee (Mar 8, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Funny thing is that our eastern groomers can be harder than the steeper western groomers. I found no ice at all on the ones at Squaw, they would have been death slides.
> I wonder what the limit a winch cat has?


 
Funny how that works. It's not even a matter of ice back here, it's just that the snow out there seems so much softer. Here I may be cautious with some blacks, where out there, I'll almost straightline much tougher runs and don't give it a second thought.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> I never skied FIS, but it sure looks steeper. I never really thought Organgrinder was all that steep in the first place.



FIS is by far steeper.  And it is very similar to Upper National at Stowe...I usually take the "lady's tee" on FIS since the "man's tee" is extremely steep and icy...in the spring it is nice.  But it is knee-wobbly.  

Upper OG just has a double fall line that makes it tricky...nothing too steep...but it gets so scraped off.


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## redalienx11 (Mar 8, 2008)

the flying mile at tremblant is reasonably steep


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## kingslug (Mar 9, 2008)

redalienx11 said:


> the flying mile at tremblant is reasonably steep



I went there a while ago....................I remember it being a pretty steep sheet of ice. Prolly like everything is...right about now.


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## kingslug (Mar 9, 2008)

Our first run of the day. Siberia Bowl. Doesn't look to steep from the angle but it was a plummit with a very narrow entrance. And I believe thats the Pallisades to the left. They where closed, frozen solid.


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## kingslug (Mar 9, 2008)

This was fun.











The face shot off the Red dog chair. This is a lot steeper than it looks and very slick. My new AC40 Carbons stuck to it like glue though.


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## KingM (Mar 9, 2008)

That skier's left looks very steep on that last picture.

Re: OG and FIS. I've always thought with both those trails that they should have different names for the upper and lower part, since the lower part of the trails don't resemble the upper sections in appearance or purpose.

FWIW, Lower FIS is one of my favorite trails at ME (well, until you get to the flat bit at the end), while I won't touch FIS itself unless conditions are just right. It scares me.

Same with Upper Organ Grinder, while Lower OG seems like just a part of the Downspout/Domino/Jester blues off Super Bravo, perhaps a bit steeper, but not much.


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## kingslug (Mar 9, 2008)

KingM said:


> That skier's left looks very steep on that last picture.
> 
> Re: OG and FIS. I've always thought with both those trails that they should have different names for the upper and lower part, since the lower part of the trails don't resemble the upper sections in appearance or purpose.
> 
> ...



The whole thing was pretty straight down, much steeper than it looks. usualy you ski something like that with a lot of powder on it. the locals just tear down it...on fat skis!


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## hrstrat57 (Mar 9, 2008)

KingM said:


> That skier's left looks very steep on that last picture.
> 
> Re: OG and FIS. I've always thought with both those trails that they should have different names for the upper and lower part, since the lower part of the trails don't resemble the upper sections in appearance or purpose.
> 
> ...



This is right on.

I was at ME a couple of weeks ago - the Tuesday after the hard rain Sunday into Monday....there was a major J1 super g event at ME. Not even the J1's free skiing after racing were on F.I.S.

It was empty. I imagine today's conditions are the same, maybe even worse.

Anyone who can stay in the fallline on F.I.S. in those bulletproof conditions is a world class skier IMO.  This can be true of most of the elite 8 and of upper organgrinder too. If you can make continuous, shortswing turns in the fallline when any of those trails are scraped off you deserve huge respect. I can't do it. A lot of big turns combined with some serious sideslipping for sure. 

It's all about the conditions of course and upper F.I.S. is the real deal.:flag:


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## Newpylong (Mar 9, 2008)

I agree, I won't touch upper FIS unless the conditions are right, which they usually aren't on that run.

Lower FIS is a favorite.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 10, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I'm not too cool to say I like some steep groomers in the East. Avalanche, white nitro, vortex, good stuff. Sometimes this is what you have to ski if you want steeps after freeze thaw. Great stuff to warm up on too.



+1


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## SKidds (Mar 10, 2008)

For frame of ref, I've skied Whiteface, Gore, Stowe, Sugarbush, Mad River, as well as a large number of lesser eastern resorts.

The Rumor at Gore is one of the steepest groomers (that they let bump up a lot) I've come across, along with Upper FIS at Sugarbush.


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## kingslug (Mar 10, 2008)

Looks like FIS wins in the east. Have to see when I get up there for the gathering.


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 10, 2008)

I have a hard time considering either the Rumor or Upper FIS to be a "groomer", but both are steep.  I think The Rumor is steeper though but for a shorter period of time.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Looks like FIS wins in the east. Have to see when I get up there for the gathering.



Having skied this and White Nitro at Sugarloaf both many times, I have to give the nod to Nitro. Upper Gondi Line is probably equally as steep as Nitro in sections as well.


As others have stated, I wouldn't really consider upper FIS a groomer anyway.  Out of the ten or so times I've skied Mt. Ellen, never once have I seen it groomed, but that's a small, small sample size.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> I have a hard time considering either the Rumor or Upper FIS to be a "groomer", but both are steep.  I think The Rumor is steeper though but for a shorter period of time.



Folks--

FIS is USUALLY NOT groomed...I've only seen it groomed once, maybe twice in my years there....


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## RISkier (Mar 10, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> I have a hard time considering either the Rumor or Upper FIS to be a "groomer", but both are steep.  I think The Rumor is steeper though but for a shorter period of time.



This might be the wrong thread.  I have a book that provides quite a bit of information on VT ski resorts.  It is VT specific.  At the end of the book the author talks about pitch measured both in degree and % and then talks about what typical "beginner," "intermdiate," etc. trails would be.  Near the end of that discussion the author talks about steepest trails in VT.  What's not clear is the distance over which pitch is measured.  According to that book Pardise at MRG is the steepest in VT (though that's not a groomer).  It implies that the mesurement is over a relatively long length cause the author goes on to mention several other trails that have very steep sections.  Don't recall the reference off hand and don't know how accurate it is.  But it is rather interesting.  I can post the reference if anyone is interested.


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## danny p (Mar 10, 2008)

RISkier said:


> This might be the wrong thread.  I have a book that provides quite a bit of information on VT ski resorts.  It is VT specific.  At the end of the book the author talks about pitch measured both in degree and % and then talks about what typical "beginner," "intermdiate," etc. trails would be.  Near the end of that discussion the author talks about steepest trails in VT.  What's not clear is the distance over which pitch is measured.  According to that book Pardise at MRG is the steepest in VT (though that's not a groomer).  It implies that the mesurement is over a relatively long length cause the author goes on to mention several other trails that have very steep sections.  Don't recall the reference off hand and don't know how accurate it is.  But it is rather interesting.  I can post the reference if anyone is interested.



i'd be interested in reading that book, so if you could post the title and author that would be much appreciated.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 10, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> FIS is by far steeper.  And it is very similar to Upper National at Stowe...I usually take the "lady's tee" on FIS since the "man's tee" is extremely steep and icy...in the spring it is nice.  But it is knee-wobbly.
> 
> Upper OG just has a double fall line that makes it tricky...nothing too steep...but it gets so scraped off.



I agree on your view of Upper FIS and Organgrinder.   I'll only ski FIS about 20% of the time based upon the conditions.


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## Vortex (Mar 10, 2008)

snoseek said:


> I'm not too cool to say I like some steep groomers in the East. Avalanche, white nitro, vortex, good stuff. Sometimes this is what you have to ski if you want steeps after freeze thaw. Great stuff to warm up on too.





I love vortex, add black hole in there as well.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 10, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Folks--
> 
> FIS is USUALLY NOT groomed...I've only seen it groomed once, maybe twice in my years there....



Same with Upper Cloudspin at WF. They groomed it 2X this season each after a thaw=freeze. Some years they never groom it or make snow on it, just leave it all natural for the season.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2008)

...of course now that I have said that, Win and crew *groomed FIS last night.*


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 10, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Folks--
> 
> FIS is USUALLY NOT groomed...I've only seen it groomed once, maybe twice in my years there....




Agreed, which is why I was saying I have a hard time considering it a groomer   I wasn't as confident as you are since I'm not up there as often, but I always think of it as a signature mogul trail.


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 10, 2008)

RISkier said:


> This might be the wrong thread.  I have a book that provides quite a bit of information on VT ski resorts.  It is VT specific.  At the end of the book the author talks about pitch measured both in degree and % and then talks about what typical "beginner," "intermdiate," etc. trails would be.  Near the end of that discussion the author talks about steepest trails in VT.  What's not clear is the distance over which pitch is measured.  According to that book Pardise at MRG is the steepest in VT (though that's not a groomer).  It implies that the mesurement is over a relatively long length cause the author goes on to mention several other trails that have very steep sections.  Don't recall the reference off hand and don't know how accurate it is.  But it is rather interesting.  I can post the reference if anyone is interested.



The waterfall aside (yeah, I know, you can't just ignore it), I think The Rumor's headwall is steeper than Paradise, at least the main trail of Paradise.


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## Newpylong (Mar 10, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> The waterfall aside (yeah, I know, you can't just ignore it), I think The Rumor's headwall is steeper than Paradise, at least the main trail of Paradise.



+1. Also,  There is a video on the Mount Snow website http://www.mountsnow.com/video.html#

 and they brought the camera in the groomer while they winched the Ripcord. Funny stuff. They took the part out where the cat went sideways for a bit.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> Agreed, which is why I was saying I have a hard time considering it a groomer   I wasn't as confident as you are since I'm not up there as often, but I always think of it as a signature mogul trail.



Yep.  Steep mogul run...except after an ice storm.


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## RISkier (Mar 10, 2008)

The book is titled "The Great Vermont Ski Chase:  The Definitive Guide to Vermont Skiing."  (2005) by Karen D. Lorentz.  Haven't really read that much of it but I thought the stuff on gradient of different slopes was interesting.  She lists the gradients of a bunch of trails.  What's not clear is how long the section is that's being described.  For example, Paradise is listed at 89% (almost 42 degrees) and then later examples are given like Hayride ranging from 25 - 35 degrees.


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 10, 2008)

Newpylong said:


> +1. Also,  There is a video on the Mount Snow website http://www.mountsnow.com/video.html#
> 
> and they brought the camera in the groomer while they winched the Ripcord. Funny stuff. They took the part out where the cat went sideways for a bit.



I think you are talking about Ripcord at Mt. Snow.  I've never been there.  I was talking about The Rumor at Gore.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 10, 2008)

I like steep groomers with a nice runout..it's a waste of mad steezy speed if you have to turn the skis sideways into a big hockey stop at the bottom.;..a nice long runout is a great way to coast out all the speed..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 10, 2008)

kingslug said:


> Looks like FIS wins in the east. Have to see when I get up there for the gathering.



FIS is so short though..4-5 big GS turns and it's over..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 10, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> Folks--
> 
> FIS is USUALLY NOT groomed...I've only seen it groomed once, maybe twice in my years there....





Kind of like Chin Clip at Stowe..they groom it a few times a season and it's an incredibly fast and fun groomer although equally fun when bumped up..


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## Greg (Mar 10, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> FIS is so short though..4-5 big GS turns and it's over..



I want to see 4-5 big GS turns when it's bumped.

Speed is so overrated.


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## Newpylong (Mar 10, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> I think you are talking about Ripcord at Mt. Snow.  I've never been there.  I was talking about The Rumor at Gore.



Yes I am.. I was saying I agree with you about the Rumor, and that Ripcord is similar. Short, very steep and bumped up outside of a few times a year.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> I want to see 4-5 big GS turns when it's bumped.
> 
> Speed is so overrated.





I mean when it's groomed..when bumped I'll take Black Diamond anyday for better snow and cheers and jeers from the lift..


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## thetrailboss (Mar 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> I want to see 4-5 big GS turns when it's bumped.
> 
> Speed is so overrated.



GSS:  4-5 GS turns?  :blink:  You would be flying at that pace....

Only question is if those are "mandatory" GS turns?  :wink:


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## deadheadskier (Mar 10, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> GSS:  4-5 GS turns?  :blink:  You would be flying at that pace....
> 
> Only question is if those are "mandatory" GS turns?  :wink:




wonder if he carried that pace down to the run out on lower if he'd have to skate at all :lol:


I've actually never skied lower because of what a PITA I've heard the run/walk out is.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 10, 2008)

thetrailboss said:


> GSS:  4-5 GS turns?  :blink:  You would be flying at that pace....
> 
> :



Thats the point of steep groomers..not to make..1,000 doodly turns..I know it's not in the east but Sundance at Jackson Hole is divine,,,2740 vert but the last couple hundred vert is runout back to the Gondola..20 Super Super GS turns with a tuck to the flats and my helmet whistles like a mo-fo..a couple of those when the lifts open on a hardpack day is great..5 in an hour is very easy to do with no line....Skiing fast on groomers is a guilty pleasure of mine like 80s music and fat chicks..lol


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 10, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> wonder if he carried that pace down to the run out on lower if he'd have to skate at all :lol:
> 
> 
> I've actually never skied lower because of what a PITA I've heard the run/walk out is.



I wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of speed on lower FIS and especially not the runout which is like Mr. Toads wild ride..the slog out is only a few minutes..maybe 1/2 mile of poling and skating tops..It's not like the bottom of Nosedive where you can just coast to the quad..I like the part of lower FIS where it crosses under the Slidebrook..


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## danny p (Mar 11, 2008)

RISkier said:


> The book is titled "The Great Vermont Ski Chase:  The Definitive Guide to Vermont Skiing."  (2005) by Karen D. Lorentz.  Haven't really read that much of it but I thought the stuff on gradient of different slopes was interesting.  She lists the gradients of a bunch of trails.  What's not clear is how long the section is that's being described.  For example, Paradise is listed at 89% (almost 42 degrees) and then later examples are given like Hayride ranging from 25 - 35 degrees.



thanks for the info.  i'm psyched to read another Lorentz book.


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## snow*angel (Mar 11, 2008)

sorry thetrailboss but i really don't think your pictures are all that steep. Magic's broomstick and sorcer i think are steeper, the rest are to steep to groom!


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 11, 2008)

Newpylong said:


> kcyanks1 said:
> 
> 
> > Newpylong said:
> ...



Got it   As I said, I've never been to Mt. Snow.  Is Ripcord really as steep as The Rumor or just similar in that it's very short and not really a "groomer"?


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2008)

snow*angel said:


> sorry thetrailboss but i really don't think your pictures are all that steep. Magic's broomstick and sorcer i think are steeper, the rest are to steep to groom!



They are quite deceptive....and by the way, the title of the thread is "steepest *groomers,*" so I was trying to focus on that.  There are many runs that are steeper (Zitz Mark at the Lyndon Outing Club...random I know...Rumble...Tuckerman Chutes on Jay, etc).  But no snowcat can tame those beasts.  :wink:


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## Greg (Mar 11, 2008)

snow*angel said:


> sorry thetrailboss but i really don't think your pictures are all that steep. Magic's broomstick and sorcer i think are steeper, the rest are to steep to groom!



Broomstick is not at all steep. Sorceror has nice pitch, but not one I'd consider overly steep either.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> I want to see 4-5 big GS turns when it's bumped.
> 
> Speed is so overrated.



 Words usually spoken by skiers who can't handle speed.Let me see you ski at Bode's speed and see if it's overated.


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## RISkier (Mar 11, 2008)

SIKSKIER said:


> Words usually spoken by skiers who can't handle speed.Let me see you ski at Bode's speed and see if it's overated.




We were at Snowbird last year.  Parts of the men's downhill course was impressively steep.  Steeper than I would have imagined.  The thought of skating out of a gate, tucking, and going straight down at the top sent chills down my spine.  I'm going to turn and I'm going to turn often.


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## Greg (Mar 11, 2008)

SIKSKIER said:


> Words usually spoken by skiers who can't handle speed.Let me see you ski at Bode's speed and see if it's overated.



Wow. You can ski at Bode speed? :-o Cool. No doubt that I can't handle speed. And I'm fine with that.


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## drjeff (Mar 11, 2008)

RISkier said:


> We were at Snowbird last year.  Parts of the men's downhill course was impressively steep.  Steeper than I would have imagined.  The thought of skating out of a gate, tucking, and going straight down at the top sent chills down my spine.  I'm going to turn and I'm going to turn often.



Snowbird or Snowbasin??  I was at Snowbasin the week after the 2002 Olympics ended.  They were holding the disabled olympic skiing events there then.  I skied out of the start house for the Grizzly (the name of the mens downhill course) which  at that point with world cup hard snow with only a couple of inches of fluff on top was SLICK.  The first pitch out of that start house is STEEP (the racers were going from 0 to roughly 80 in the first 5-6 seconds!)  My wife and I get down to the bottom after making some slightly tenative slalom turns on the surface.  We turn around and look back up, and theres a 1 legged para-olympian straightlining the pitch on his way down to the women's olympic course (the wildflower) which the paraolympians were running that day!

That top headwall of The Grizzly at Snowbasin is as steep(if not steeper) than any groomer in the East!


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## ctenidae (Mar 11, 2008)

Greg said:


> Wow. You can ski at Bode speed? :-o Cool.



Everyone can.

For a little while.

Until a tree gets in the way.


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## RISkier (Mar 11, 2008)

My bad, it was at Snowbasin.


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## Newpylong (Mar 11, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> Got it   As I said, I've never been to Mt. Snow.  Is Ripcord really as steep as The Rumor or just similar in that it's very short and not really a "groomer"?



Steeper... but a bit shorter.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2008)

Wow....considering how much I hear folks in this thread say, "I hate steep groomers," this thread is sure getting a lot of attention....


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 11, 2008)

Newpylong said:


> kcyanks1 said:
> 
> 
> > Got it   As I said, I've never been to Mt. Snow.  Is Ripcord really as steep as The Rumor or just similar in that it's very short and not really a "groomer"?
> ...



Wow.  Hard to believe, though I have heard about Ripcord being steep for a while.  Maybe some day I'll make it to Mt. Snow.  I guess if I were very crazy I could do it in a day from NY.  Question is whether it's worth the extra hours of driving over Hunter if I am doing the day trip thing.


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## bigbog (Mar 11, 2008)

*...same here*



ALLSKIING said:


> +2



x += 1;

Oh man am I ever jonesin' for another powder day...:smash:


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## deadheadskier (Mar 11, 2008)

kcyanks1 said:


> Wow.  Hard to believe, though I have heard about Ripcord being steep for a while.  Maybe some day I'll make it to Mt. Snow.  I guess if I were very crazy I could do it in a day from NY.  Question is whether it's worth the extra hours of driving over Hunter if I am doing the day trip thing.



This year, considering Mt. Snow had probably more than double the natural snow as Hunter.......


.....pretty simple answer


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> This year, considering Mt. Snow had probably more than double the natural snow as Hunter.......
> 
> 
> .....pretty simple answer




4 hours each way vs. 2.5.  Most I've driven each way for a day trip is 3.5 hours, though I did once last year have like an 8 hour ride home through a storm from Sugarbush after skiing there.


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## Katahdin (Mar 12, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Snowbird or Snowbasin??  I was at Snowbasin the week after the 2002 Olympics ended.  They were holding the disabled olympic skiing events there then.  I skied out of the start house for the Grizzly (the name of the mens downhill course) which  at that point with world cup hard snow with only a couple of inches of fluff on top was SLICK.  The first pitch out of that start house is STEEP (the racers were going from 0 to roughly 80 in the first 5-6 seconds!)  My wife and I get down to the bottom after making some slightly tenative slalom turns on the surface.  We turn around and look back up, and theres a 1 legged para-olympian straightlining the pitch on his way down to the women's olympic course (the wildflower) which the paraolympians were running that day!
> 
> That top headwall of The Grizzly at Snowbasin is as steep(if not steeper) than any groomer in the East!




I just skied the Grizzly Downhill at Snowbasin on Friday.  The Snowbasin employee who rides up the Mt Allen tram and reads all the warnings to the skiers stated that the pitch is 74 percent.  It appeared to have been groomed a day or two prior and the snow was excellent so it didn't really seem that steep.


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## SKidds (Mar 12, 2008)

Katahdin said:


> I just skied the Grizzly Downhill at Snowbasin on Friday.  The Snowbasin employee who rides up the Mt Allen tram and reads all the warnings to the skiers stated that the pitch is 74 percent.  It appeared to have been groomed a day or two prior and the snow was excellent so it didn't really seem that steep.


Is that 75 percent on average, or it's steepest point?  A 75 percent pitch is a slope that approaches 37 degrees.  While that is steep, it isn't scary steep, at least not for acomplished skiers.  Steep junkies don't start getting excited until you atart talking 45 degrees and up.  Now tucking a 37 degree pitch.....that is scary, but for general skiing, it's steep, but not crazy.  There are plenty of trails in the east that hit 37 degrees.  Now if that 37 degrees is average, the headwall could push past 45 or 50 degrees for a bit, and THAT is steep.


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## drjeff (Mar 12, 2008)

Katahdin said:


> I just skied the Grizzly Downhill at Snowbasin on Friday.  The Snowbasin employee who rides up the Mt Allen tram and reads all the warnings to the skiers stated that the pitch is 74 percent.  It appeared to have been groomed a day or two prior and the snow was excellent so it didn't really seem that steep.



Now just picture a 1 legged skier straightlining that pitch right out of the start house when that pitch had a couple of inches of chopped up fulff ontop of a world cup hard groomed surface!  Impressive!

Gotta love Snowbasin!  One of the few places were it's real difficult to get out of the lodge in the AM/at lunch just simply because they're SO nice!


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## Greg (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Is that 75 percent on average, or it's steepest point?  A 75 percent pitch is a slope that approaches 37 degrees.  While that is steep, it isn't scary steep, at least not for acomplished skiers.  Steep junkies don't start getting excited until you atart talking 45 degrees and up.  Now tucking a 37 degree pitch.....that is scary, but for general skiing, it's steep, but not crazy.  There are plenty of trails in the east that hit 37 degrees.  Now if that 37 degrees is average, the headwall could push past 45 or 50 degrees for a bit, and THAT is steep.



I guess I'm not accomplished then cuz 37 degrees is pretty effin steep to me.


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## RISkier (Mar 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> I guess I'm not accomplished then cuz 37 degrees is pretty effin steep to me.



Yep, 37 degrees is dang steep.  I'd wager that very few trails in the East are steeper except for relatively short sections.  Folks tend to over estimate the pitch of slopes they ski.  I'm not an especially accomplished skier and recall stopping at the top of the one of the steep sections on that trail.  It seemed so steep you couldn' really even get a good look down, just fell off into the abyss.  Definately "seemed "steeper than trails like Hayride or Liftline at Stowe, though I'll emphasize the "seemed."  Just can't imagine tucking and straight lining that kind of stuff.


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## SKidds (Mar 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> I guess I'm not accomplished then cuz 37 degrees is pretty effin steep to me.


Awww, you're more accomplished than you think you are .  

Really, I'm not trying to dis anybody.  But do you really think 37 degrees is going to scare away any expert skier? Sure, it's steep.  Maybe it's effin steep.  But it isn't crazy steep.  It's not top of Corbits steep from which the majority of sane accomplished expert skiers probably turn away.  Maybe I'm off on this one, but I don't think so.  I've earned turns in a couple places where the slope was a min 40 - 45 degrees, although that steepness is a little less intimidating in a wide open bowl than it is on a cut trail through a wooded mountain.  But I don't think an expert is going to be scared off by a 37 degree pitch.

I suppose I have chosen my words poorly and should change "accomplished" to "expert", because there certainly are accomplished intermediate and below skiers.  I have no idea where you fall, but I apologize if I offended.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Awww, you're more accomplished than you think you are .
> 
> Really, I'm not trying to dis anybody.  But do you really think 37 degrees is going to scare away any expert skier? Sure, it's steep.  Maybe it's effin steep.  But it isn't crazy steep.  It's not top of Corbits steep from which the majority of sane accomplished expert skiers probably turn away.
> 
> I suppose I have chosen my words poorly and should change "accomplished" to "expert", because there certainly are accomplished intermediate and below skiers.  I have no idea where you fall, but I apologize if I offended.




There isn't anything in the East outside of Tucks that is 37 degrees for more than a few yards.  37 degrees is DAMN steep pretty much anywhere in the country

copied from another thread

Ovation at Killington (24 degrees, actually):
Paradise at MRG - 32.5 degrees 
Tramline at Cannon - 28.1 degrees
White Nitro, Sugarloaf - 29.5 degree
Starr @ Stowe - 31.1 degrees
Castle Rock @ Sugarbush - 21.3 degrees
Whiteface Slides @ whiteface - 36.3 degrees
Denton Hill's (PA) triple diamond run - 27.7 degrees
Goat @ Stowe - 33.6 degrees
Robin's Run @ Smuggs - 29.8 degrees
Outer Limits @ Killington - 28.5 degrees
Devils Fiddle @ Killington - 25 degrees
Ripcord @ Mt. Snow - 27.4 degrees
Tuckerman's Ravine, NH (steepest I could find) - 45.3 degrees (damm!)
Dynamite @ Tremblant - 28 degrees
Black Hole @ Smuggs - 31.0 degrees
Ovation (lower section) @ Killington - 30.7 degrees
KT-22 East Chutes @ Squaw - 41 degrees
Huevos Grande @ Mammoth - 52.3 degrees (wicked steep)
51-50 @ PCMR - 47.9 degrees (and everyone says PCMR isn't steep)
Main Baldy Chute @ Alta - 44 degrees (but it's a dry steep)
Extrovert @ Blue Knob - 28.5 degrees
High Rustler @ Alta - 44.3 degrees
Great Scott @ Snowbird - 46.5 degrees
Upper Cirque @ Snowbird - 40.5 degrees
Peruvian @ Snowbird - 32.9 degrees
Under Powderhorn lift @ Solitude - 42.8 degrees
Under 9990 @ The Canyons - 29 degrees
Square Top @ The Canyons - 41.0 degrees
Upper Big Emma (Green Run!) @ Snowbird - 25.3 degrees!
Rumble @ Sugarbush - 27.9 degrees
Pitch Pine @ King Pine - 21.1 Degrees

Tuckerman Ravine Routes:
1 - 38.7 degrees
2 - 44.0 degrees
3 - 44.6 degrees
4 - 48.1 degrees
5 - 48.3 degrees
6 - 46.8 degrees
7 - 43.5 degrees
8 - 42.8 degrees
9 - 31.4 degrees
10- 30.3 degrees

Lower Wildcat @ Laurel Mountain (PA) - 28.1 degrees
Tower Three Chute @ JH - 43.1 degrees
Blowhole (Whistler/Blackcomb) - couldn't find it on the map
Rumor @ Gore - 28.9 degrees
Gunbarrel @ Heavenly, on the steepest pitch (a 136' section) is 31.6 degrees. 
Palisades @ Squaw - 45.5 degrees (steepest section I could find - 205' long)


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## Greg (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Awww, you're more accomplished than you think you are .
> 
> Really, I'm not trying to dis anybody.  But do you really think 37 degrees is going to scare away any expert skier? Sure, it's steep.  Maybe it's effin steep.  But it isn't crazy steep.  It's not top of Corbits steep from which the majority of sane accomplished expert skiers probably turn away.
> 
> I suppose I have chosen my words poorly and should change "accomplished" to "expert", because there certainly are accomplished intermediate and below skiers.  I have no idea where you fall, but I apologize if I offended.



Not at all offended. And quite honestly, it's all about the surface conditions. Steep shots on a powder day or with some spring corn, no problem. Flat, porcelain-like hard pack? No thanks. And like RISkier said, I don't believe there are many consistent 37 degree on map stretches at lift-serviced Northeast ski areas.


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## SKidds (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks for the info deadheadskier.  I'd imagine those measures are average slope degree and certain sections of many of those trails are steeper, but it's a great reference point.  Those degree slopes seem to make sense as well.  I've skied The Slides, Paradise (MRG), the Front Four at Stowe, all of Castlerock, Ripcord, Rumor.....and relatively speeking those measurements make sense.  But I still maintain that 37% isn't scary steep.  I'm more of a weekend warrior than a 50 day a season guy, and The Slides are steep, very steep, but not intimidatingly so for an expert skier.  I'm sticking by that.

As Greg points out, conditions certainly are a big factor as well.


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## kcyanks1 (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Thanks for the info deadheadskier.  I'd imagine those measures are average slope degree and certain sections of many of those trails are steeper, but it's a great reference point.  Those degree slopes seem to make sense as well.  I've skied The Slides, Paradise (MRG), the Front Four at Stowe, all of Castlerock, Ripcord, Rumor.....and relatively speeking those measurements make sense.  But I still maintain that 37% isn't scary steep.  I'm more of a weekend warrior than a 50 day a season guy, and The Slides are steep, very steep, but not intimidatingly so for an expert skier.  I'm sticking by that.
> 
> As Greg points out, conditions certainly are a big factor as well.



I believe the Starr headwall is 37 degrees, or so Stowe says.  The 31.1 degree measurement is probably as you said over a longer length of the trail.  I seem to remember those measurements being the steepest 400' vertical of the trail, but I am just going from memory, so take it for what it's worth.


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## SKidds (Mar 12, 2008)

So a question for advanced/expert skiers who have skied it.  Yes, the Front Four at Stowe are steep, but do you consider Starr, even just the headwall, to be crazy scary steep?  It's a nice, steep, challenging trail, no doubt, but it's certainly not extreme terrain.


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## jonhere (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm glad to hear Snowbasin got some votes for steepest groomer.  Makes me feel a little better about crashing on a groomer.  I just broke some bones there last week when I caught an edge and slammed into the ground on the first run of the day.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> So a question for advanced/expert skiers who have skied it.  Yes, the Front Four at Stowe are steep, but do you consider Starr, even just the headwall, to be crazy scary steep?  It's a nice, steep, challenging trail, no doubt, but it's certainly not extreme terrain.




I think the lack of obstacles makes Starr fairly tame, certainly not extreme terrain.  Lookout, though less steep is more challenging/extreme than Starr IMHO.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> So a question for advanced/expert skiers who have skied it.  Yes, the Front Four at Stowe are steep, but do you consider Starr, even just the headwall, to be crazy scary steep?  It's a nice, steep, challenging trail, no doubt, but it's certainly not extreme terrain.



The headwall of Starr is definitely not scary steep....but..in low snow conditions only the right side is skiable..and it can be scrapped to solid ice by side slippers and if you fall and don't have self arrest skills..you can slide right into the woods..a 37 degree icy pitch is obviously more challenging than a 37 degree open bowl with powder or nice chalky snow out west..


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## SKidds (Mar 12, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> ..a 37 degree icy pitch is obviously more challenging than a 37 degree open bowl with powder or nice chalky snow out west..


Agreed.  However, a skier who is good enough not to be scared off by the 37 degree pitch is likely, more often than not, going to be able to handle whatever conditions that pitch holds.  I'm not trying to say skiing such things isn't very difficult, I'm just saying that in terms of steepness it's not going to be intimidating to a good expert skier.


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## Greg (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Agreed.  However, a skier who is good enough not to be scared off by the 37 degree pitch is likely, more often than not, going to be able to handle whatever conditions that pitch holds.  I'm not trying to say skiing such things isn't very difficult, I'm just saying that in terms of steepness it's not going to be intimidating to a good expert skier.



I would venture to guess that many people claiming to be an "expert" skier are far from it...


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> Wow. You can ski at Bode speed? :-o Cool. No doubt that I can't handle speed. And I'm fine with that.



No I cant Greg.But I grew up skiing with him as a kid at Cannon.I'm just bustin your chops for dissing my everyday skiing style and love.I love hi speed cruising.Gets my ticker clicking.


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## Greg (Mar 12, 2008)

SIKSKIER said:


> No I cant Greg.But I grew up skiing with him as a kid at Cannon.I'm just bustin your chops for dissing my everyday skiing style and love.I love hi speed cruising.Gets my ticker clicking.



No worries. Different strokes for different folks!

:beer:


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## Katahdin (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Is that 75 percent on average, or it's steepest point?



I don't know if the 74 percent (37 degree) stated was the average or maximum, although both may be pretty close for the first few hundred vertical feet in this case.  The slope of the top pitch seemed pretty uniform before it begins to flatten out near the bottom of the tram.  We saw highlights of the 2002 Men's downhill at the Olympic Park.  After skiing the start of the downhill it was amazing to see the Olympic skiers actually skate for a few strides down this slope before getting into a tuck.



drjeff said:


> Gotta love Snowbasin!  One of the few places were it's real difficult to get out of the lodge in the AM/at lunch just simply because they're SO nice!



Snowbasin easily has the most spectacular lodges I have ever seen.  Makes the beautiful Deer Valley lodges seem downright ordinary.  The attached pic is from the John Paul lodge near the bottom of the Mt Allen tram.

.....


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## SKidds (Mar 12, 2008)

Greg said:


> I would venture to guess that many people claiming to be an "expert" skier are far from it...


Probably true, although I'm not even sure of how I'd define an "expert" skier.  Able to huck your meat all over Baldy in the US Extreme Skiing Championships?  If so, there are very few expert skiers on any hill.  Possess the technical ability to ski (ski, not just get down) any eastern in bounds trail under any conditions, as well as hike to and navigate a variety of backcountry terrain?  I think there are a lot of people who would qualify under that one.  When I say "expert" I'm talking about the latter.  Maybe we should just call them Advanced Type III skiers, but then would they be able to ski all the double black trails with the "Experts Only" warning?


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## highpeaksdrifter (Mar 12, 2008)

SKidds said:


> Probably true, although I'm not even sure of how I'd define an "expert" skier.



I know one when I see one.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Mar 12, 2008)

Most people who say they're advanced are probably intermediates and most who say they're experts are probably advanced..for men at least...women seem to be more modest about their ability level..


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## KingM (Mar 12, 2008)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> I know one when I see one.



Right. Significantly better than me usually qualifies.


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## skicone (Mar 12, 2008)

I've skied both at Whiteface and Stowe, and the runs that are being mentioned at least have some character to them. My vote for steep, straight-down-the -mountain, groomer has to be off the Cascade chair at Killington. I believe it was called Cascade but it's been several years since I was there.


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## tjf67 (Mar 12, 2008)

Palisades @ Squaw - 45.5 degrees (steepest section I could find - 205' long)

There are basically 6 shots down the palisades.  The easiest one in 45 at the top with the hardest reaching for the first couple hundred feet  60 degrees.  At which point you are not skiing you are freefalling


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## Brettski (Mar 12, 2008)

I would guess falling off the roof of my house would be the steepest


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## 2knees (Mar 12, 2008)

Brettski said:


> I would guess falling off the roof of my house would be the steepest



your roof is a groomer? 

how do you get the cat up there?  do you have a chairlift or is it hike to only?


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## RISkier (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm probably off topic here but wanted to second comments about the Snowbasin lodges.  ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.  I could've moved into the men's room.  And while Deer Valley has more upscale food choices, the food at Snowbasin was excellent and a pretty good value.

My take on "an expert skier" is someone who can almost any terrain in almost any condition and ski it in control and with intent.  An expert might ski it fast or slow but they're able to dictate the terms.  Someone who can comfotably ski bumps, steeps, powder, trees, variable surface conditions, etc.  I wouldn't include extreme skiing involving big air as a requirement.  I'm definately not an expert skier.  I merely aspire to get better.


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