# adjustment advice



## gmcunni (Oct 7, 2008)

Ok, going to try to not screw up my bike tonight while i try to fix it.

Towards the end of my ride on Sunday i started having problems with the front derailleur. Any time i put the rear derailleur on the largest gear (1) the front would drop to the inside ring.   i assume i need to "push" the chain guider thing (i have no idea what MTB parts are called) towards the outside by a fraction of an inch.  Before i do that anyone think I'm heading in the wrong direction?


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## marcski (Oct 7, 2008)

Caveat:  I never fix my own bike.

With that said, here is what little I think I know.  (is that an oxymoron?).   I think the screws on the derailleur itself are if the chain is falling off the rings altogether.  ie. off the rings either to the inside (small) or outside (large) chainring sides.  I believe, from what you've said, you might only need a small adjustment to the barrel adjustment on the shifters.   

There are some really good websites out there for this if you're really into it. I just don't have the time to invest in 1) learning how to properly fix it; and 2) actually fixing it.  

here are some:

http://bicycletutor.com/

http://www.bikewebsite.com/ftder.htm#Front

There is another really good site...its the guy's name..I can't seem to find the bookmark now.  He died this past year...


edit: here is the one I was thinking of:   http://www.sheldonbrown.com/

Good luck.


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2008)

It's called a derailleur cage. I would shift to the small ring, then loosen the cable locking nut and pull any slack from the cable. Sometimes you can tug on the cage _slightly _towards the middle ring while you tighten it. After it's tight, let go of the cage and there should be no slack in the cable. Try shifting. You might have barrel adjusters on the shifters on your bars to tweak it. If you can't get it right, loosen the nut again and play with it. See also this tutorial:

http://bicycletutor.com/adjust-front-derailer/

Working on a bike is not rocket science so just fool with it and have fun.


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## JD (Oct 7, 2008)

OK, here's the thing.  The MTB drive chain of today is total crap.  (another reason I went with less gears)  What I'm talking about is chain line.  Used to be we would run a Botton Bracket Spindle length of 103mm.  Then people wanted clearence for wider and wider tires, as a result we are now out to 117+ mm.  What you end up with is a wicked bad chain line because the width of the rear hub has not changed.  Put your bike in the middle ring up front, and the big cog in back.  Look at the chain line from just behind your wheel, looking along the chain towards your cranks.  You will notice that the chain comes off the front ring and cames back to the cassette at a diagnal.  This is a terrible chain line.  Anytime you back pedal while rolling thru remotley rough trail, your chain will drop off.  front dereialure adjustment won't fix this.  In fact, nothing will fix it.  It's poor design.  The thing to do would be to use your gears a bit differently to keep a better chain line which will wear your drive train less as well so it's a good thing to do.  Before you get up that high on your cassette, drop down to your small ring up front.  if you are in 2(up front) and 4 in back and want an easier gear, go to 1 up front and maybe drop down to 5 in back.  then if you need more torque, you can move up your cassette.  Put your bike in a stand, or hang it by a tree limb from the nose  of the saddle and work thru the gears...see where you bike has the best chain line (chain as straight as possible from front ring back to cassette) learn to ride in those gear combinations more.  
What MTBs really need is a new rear hub that puts the casette farther out and gives our rear wheels less dish, which will make them stronger too.  IMO.  Or you could just go with one ring up front, put an inner bash guard on and never drop your chain.  depends how much you use your granny(tiny 22 tooth front ring).  GL.


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2008)

*Disclaimer*



Greg said:


> Working on a bike is not rocket science so just fool with it and have fun.



I should add a disclaimer here. Anyone who has ridden with me lately might have heard my chain grinding around as I try to shift from the small to middle ring. Since I added a bash guard and dropped the cage, my front der has been giving me fits. It's amazing how things that you think you have adjusted correctly after a test ride around the neighborhood, suddenly don't work as nicely on the trail. :lol:

Also, lube your chain. That will help smooth shifting.


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2008)

JD said:


> The thing to do would be to use your gears a bit differently to keep a better chain line which will wear your drive train less as well so it's a good thing to do.  Before you get up that high on your cassette, drop down to your small ring up front.  if you are in 2(up front) and 4 in back and want an easier gear, go to 1 up front and maybe drop down to 5 in back.  then if you need more torque, you can move up your cassette.  Put your bike in a stand, or hang it by a tree limb from the nose  of the saddle and work thru the gears...see where you bike has the best chain line (chain as straight as possible from front ring back to cassette) learn to ride in those gear combinations more.



Interesting stuff. I usually default to to a 2-1 or 2-2 combo for more slow technical riding. If I'm running out of gas on say a steep climb, I drop to the small ring so I'm running 1-1 or 1-2. I never have chain popping off issues. Still, your post here is interesting and makes me think about modifying my shifting to use the 3rd or 4th cog more with the small ring vs. a 2-1 combo.


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## bvibert (Oct 7, 2008)

JD said:


> OK, here's the thing.  The MTB drive chain of today is total crap.  (another reason I went with less gears)  What I'm talking about is chain line.  Used to be we would run a Botton Bracket Spindle length of 103mm.  Then people wanted clearence for wider and wider tires, as a result we are now out to 117+ mm.  What you end up with is a wicked bad chain line because the width of the rear hub has not changed.  Put your bike in the middle ring up front, and the big cog in back.  Look at the chain line from just behind your wheel, looking along the chain towards your cranks.  You will notice that the chain comes off the front ring and cames back to the cassette at a diagnal.  This is a terrible chain line.  Anytime you back pedal while rolling thru remotley rough trail, your chain will drop off.  front dereialure adjustment won't fix this.  In fact, nothing will fix it.  It's poor design.  The thing to do would be to use your gears a bit differently to keep a better chain line which will wear your drive train less as well so it's a good thing to do.  Before you get up that high on your cassette, drop down to your small ring up front.  if you are in 2(up front) and 4 in back and want an easier gear, go to 1 up front and maybe drop down to 5 in back.  then if you need more torque, you can move up your cassette.  Put your bike in a stand, or hang it by a tree limb from the nose  of the saddle and work thru the gears...see where you bike has the best chain line (chain as straight as possible from front ring back to cassette) learn to ride in those gear combinations more.
> What MTBs really need is a new rear hub that puts the casette farther out and gives our rear wheels less dish, which will make them stronger too.  IMO.  Or you could just go with one ring up front, put an inner bash guard on and never drop your chain.  depends how much you use your granny(tiny 22 tooth front ring).  GL.


That's pretty much what I was thinking.

You may be able to get it better by using the FD, but it's not really meant to hold the chain in place like that.


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## bvibert (Oct 7, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting stuff. I usually default to to a 2-1 or 2-2 combo for more slow technical riding. If I'm running out of gas on say a steep climb, I drop to the small ring so I'm running 1-1 or 1-2. I never have chain popping off issues. Still, your post here is interesting and makes me think about modifying my shifting to use the 3rd or 4th cog more with the small ring vs. a 2-1 combo.



AFAIK chain lines will vary slightly between different bikes due to differences in crank arms and stuff.  Your chain line might not be as bad as Gary's (or mine, I can't back pedal while in the top two cogs and the middle ring, the chain will shift down a cog or two if I do).  I could be wrong though...


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## JD (Oct 7, 2008)

Greg said:


> Interesting stuff. I usually default to to a 2-1 or 2-2 combo for more slow technical riding. If I'm running out of gas on say a steep climb, I drop to the small ring so I'm running 1-1 or 1-2. I never have chain popping off issues. Still, your post here is interesting and makes me think about modifying my shifting to use the 3rd or 4th cog more with the small ring vs. a 2-1 combo.



You should avoid shifting on steep climbs, BTW.  
Your 2-1 is prolly a 32 or 34 tooth front chaiin ring and a 32 tooth rear cog.  Your small ring up front is a 22t so that should put you down around #5 or 6 for the same ratio.  It's been so long since I've had a cassette, I don't really remember.  I had rapid fire shifters and when I was in 2-2 and wanted more torque, I would drop one up front and 2 in back.  Always felt like a good shift.  Going from 2-1 to 1-1 was too much of a drop.  I would go from straining to "legs furiously pumping".  Not the smoothest transition.


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## JD (Oct 7, 2008)

bvibert said:


> AFAIK chain lines will vary slightly between different bikes due to differences in crank arms and stuff.  Your chain line might not be as bad as Gary's (or mine, I can't back pedal while in the top two cogs and the middle ring, the chain will shift down a cog or two if I do).  I could be wrong though...



BB spindle length too.  If you have some room betwen your chain stay and chain rings on your crank, you could go with a shorter BB spindle and move you entire crank in.  On some suspension bikes it's acually the tire that is the limiting factor on this, but this is a spendy fix and something to think about when you are replacing the BB due to wear.


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## gorgonzola (Oct 7, 2008)

i didn't read all the posts but i usually find everything i ever wanted to know and more on the park tool website

http://www.parktool.com/repair/

so cool


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## migs 01 (Oct 7, 2008)

I think your chain kept dropping from a combo of rooty, rocky terrain and cross chaining.


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## gmcunni (Oct 7, 2008)

thanks for all the info, i need to re-read at home tonight when i have more time.



migs 01 said:


> I think your chain kept dropping from a combo of rooty, rocky terrain and cross chaining.


true for the 1st part of the ride but something did go wrong towards the end. just riding up a smooth hill the front kept dropping to the inner ring. I even had it happen on a test ride on my street last night.

i have a HUGE bruise on my right hip,  and several other smaller ones on my thighs.  the bike (and my body) got thrown around a bit on that ride.. but it was FUN!!


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## marcski (Oct 7, 2008)

migs 01 said:


> I think your chain kept dropping from a combo of rooty, rocky terrain and cross chaining.



A chain should stay on the cogs regardless of terrain.  I believe that if it was dropping without rider error in shifting, it was because it was not properly in tune...and not because of the terrain.



JD said:


> OK, here's the thing.  The MTB drive chain of today is total crap.  (another reason I went with less gears)  What I'm talking about is chain line.  Used to be we would run a Botton Bracket Spindle length of 103mm.  Then people wanted clearence for wider and wider tires, as a result we are now out to 117+ mm.  What you end up with is a wicked bad chain line because the width of the rear hub has not changed.  Put your bike in the middle ring up front, and the big cog in back.  Look at the chain line from just behind your wheel, looking along the chain towards your cranks.  You will notice that the chain comes off the front ring and cames back to the cassette at a diagnal.  This is a terrible chain line.  Anytime you back pedal while rolling thru remotley rough trail, your chain will drop off.  front dereialure adjustment won't fix this.  In fact, nothing will fix it.  It's poor design.  The thing to do would be to use your gears a bit differently to keep a better chain line which will wear your drive train less as well so it's a good thing to do.  Before you get up that high on your cassette, drop down to your small ring up front.  if you are in 2(up front) and 4 in back and want an easier gear, go to 1 up front and maybe drop down to 5 in back.  then if you need more torque, you can move up your cassette.  Put your bike in a stand, or hang it by a tree limb from the nose  of the saddle and work thru the gears...see where you bike has the best chain line (chain as straight as possible from front ring back to cassette) learn to ride in those gear combinations more.
> What MTBs really need is a new rear hub that puts the casette farther out and gives our rear wheels less dish, which will make them stronger too.  IMO.  Or you could just go with one ring up front, put an inner bash guard on and never drop your chain.  depends how much you use your granny(tiny 22 tooth front ring).  GL.



IMHO, which may or may not be worth the paper you're reading this on....you guys are thinking way too much.  To me, shifting should be a natural thing..almost 2nd nature.  I ride much better when I'm in the moment and not thinking about gearing.


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## gorgonzola (Oct 7, 2008)

^ amen brotha!


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> IMHO, which may or may not be worth the paper you're reading this on....you guys are thinking way too much.  To me, shifting should be a natural thing..almost 2nd nature.  I ride much better when I'm in the moment and not thinking about gearing.





gorgonzola said:


> ^ amen brotha!



:???: Perhaps for some of you guys that have been riding for a long time, shifting is truly intuitive. For a newby like me, it takes some time and experimentation to figure out the best front/rear combos for a given situation. Me thinks some of you guys forget what it was like starting out...


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## gmcunni (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> A chain should stay on the cogs regardless of terrain. * I believe that if it was dropping without rider error in shifting,* it was because it was not properly in tune...and not because of the terrain.
> .



plenty of rider error when i'm involved.


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## JD (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> A chain should stay on the cogs regardless of terrain.  I believe that if it was dropping without rider error in shifting, it was because it was not properly in tune...and not because of the terrain.



Not if the chain line is terrible and you backpedal while rolling over rough terrain.  Though if it's happening on smooth ground there's some other issue, but it's not the front derailure.  Maybe a bent tooth.


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## gmcunni (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> http://bicycletutor.com/



i like this site.. nice videos showing you what to do.. i'm a visual learner.


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## marcski (Oct 7, 2008)

JD said:


> Not if the chain line is terrible and you backpedal while rolling over rough terrain.  Though if it's happening on smooth ground there's some other issue, but it's not the front derailure.  Maybe a bent tooth.



Definitely true, a bent tooth, could do it as well.  I hear you about the chain line, but if you're able to pedal forward without it coming off, while it might be rougher backward, i would still think it shouldn't just pop off.




Greg said:


> :???: Perhaps for some of you guys that have been riding for a long time, shifting is truly intuitive. For a newby like me, it takes some time and experimentation to figure out the best front/rear combos for a given situation. Me thinks some of you guys forget what it was like starting out...



Well, yes, that's why they say, "its like riding a bike, you never forget..."  )

I understand you're wet behind the ears, green and the all the rest.    But, my post wasn't meant to degrade anyone's riding ability, it was meant in the vein of....let me try and put this in a way you'll understand and can relate to......When you're on a bump run... in the groove ... your instincts take over.  You're skiing by "feel" so to speak.... Your constantly making minor adjustments and small movements to take up the terrain, different bumps, some with more loose snow than others, whatever the case...but, when you're in the groove, correct me if I'm wrong, you're not thinking of those things....you're feeling it...skiing by instinct..in the moment.


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> I understand you're wet behind the ears, green and the all the rest.    But, my post wasn't meant to degrade anyone's riding ability, it was meant in the vein of....let me try and put this in a way you'll understand and can relate to......When you're on a bump run... in the groove ... your instincts take over.  You're skiing by "feel" so to speak.... Your constantly making minor adjustments and small movements to take up the terrain, different bumps, some with more loose snow than others, whatever the case...but, when you're in the groove, correct me if I'm wrong, you're not thinking of those things....you're feeling it...skiing by instinct..in the moment.



I know exactly what you're saying, but like mountain biking, reaching that epiphany when skiing bumps takes a long time and only after a lot of practice. And even still I need to actively correct things on a bump run. Rarely does it just "happen" during an entire run, at least not for me. Anyway, I'm just saying that I think it's okay to break down some of the hows and whys when new to something.


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## marcski (Oct 7, 2008)

Greg said:


> I know exactly what you're saying, but like mountain biking, reaching that epiphany when skiing bumps takes a long time and only after a lot of practice. And even still I need to actively correct things on a bump run. Rarely does it just "happen" during an entire run, at least not for me. Anyway, I'm just saying that I think it's okay to break down some of the hows and whys when new to something.



I'm not saying its not ok.  And, to an extent, its me, I personally tend to definitely go from the cuff probably more than I should.

Oh, and btw, you don't look like any newbie in your avatar, going down that roller.


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## gmcunni (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> Definitely true, a bent tooth, could do it as well.




i put my bike up on the workbench tonight and noticed a very slight bend on a tooth. not sure if it is significant enough to cause the chain to drop down or not. FWIW, the bend is  towards the lower ring and the unwanted shift occurs under heavy pedaling.

derailleur cage seemed lined up correctly so i didn't make any adjustments..  i did "tap" the bent tooth with a hammer a little bit to see if i could straighten it.


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## Greg (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> Oh, and btw, you don't look like any newbie in your avatar, going down that roller.



:lol: There's a descent ladder ramp if you look closely...  :lol:


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## JD (Oct 7, 2008)

marcski said:


> Definitely true, a bent tooth, could do it as well.  I hear you about the chain line, but if you're able to pedal forward without it coming off, while it might be rougher backward, i would still think it shouldn't just pop off.QUOTE]
> 
> The difference is when you are pedaling forward the chain is under tension as it feed onto the chainring so it won't slap around laterally as much.  As you back pedal, it feeds in from the bottom under no tension so it can jump off to the side and off.  On  my old proflex, my specialized enduro, my voo doo, my Surly...has nothing to do with the freewheel roughness.  But all this seems moot if it drops down under heavy pedaling.  What I am talking about ussally happens as you coast, throw a back pedal or two to switch lead feet, then go to pedal and "discover" your chain has dropped.
> so my next question, how old is your drive train and did you just replace a chain or chain ring?


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## marcski (Oct 7, 2008)

JD said:


> marcski said:
> 
> 
> > Definitely true, a bent tooth, could do it as well.  I hear you about the chain line, but if you're able to pedal forward without it coming off, while it might be rougher backward, i would still think it shouldn't just pop off.QUOTE]
> ...


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## gorgonzola (Oct 7, 2008)

Greg said:


> :???: Perhaps for some of you guys that have been riding for a long time, shifting is truly intuitive. For a newby like me, it takes some time and experimentation to figure out the best front/rear combos for a given situation. Me thinks some of you guys forget what it was like starting out...



 i just think things get way over analyzed, and this is coming from joe pedal masher. i'm trying to stay out of granny gear more and sometimes "single speed" , bascally not shift or at least down shift less (=speed) through more situations = bad chainlines and gear combos. i don't think the chain is popping  - or shouldn't be anyway from terrain (roots?rocks? no effin way) or even bad shifts or chain lines - sounds more like  the tune or something is amiss. this spring i couldn't get the drivetrain smooth no matter what, new hanger, 2 llbs's later until finally replacing the chain, chainring and cassette - shtuff just gets busted up! aaah i was having problems myself sunday and should be out in the garage now......


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## JD (Oct 8, 2008)

marcski said:


> JD said:
> 
> 
> > Are you one of those proflex guruheads?   I knew a couple of them back in the day.  Those guys practically slept with their bikes....
> ...


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## cbcbd (Oct 8, 2008)

gorgonzola said:


> i just think things get way over analyzed, and this is coming from joe pedal masher. i'm trying to stay out of granny gear more and sometimes "single speed" , bascally not shift or at least down shift less (=speed) through more situations = bad chainlines and gear combos. i don't think the chain is popping  - or shouldn't be anyway from terrain (roots?rocks? no effin way) or even bad shifts or chain lines - sounds more like  the tune or something is amiss. this spring i couldn't get the drivetrain smooth no matter what, new hanger, 2 llbs's later until finally replacing the chain, chainring and cassette - shtuff just gets busted up! aaah i was having problems myself sunday and should be out in the garage now......


I hear ya about the over analyzing but somethings not known at first can become lessons later.

I used to stick to my 1 chainring and 4-5-6 cogs for everything - would not downshift on uphills and would just torque out ascents pumping it out on 5. Doing this put a lot of strain on my chain and it broke after a while on one of these uphills. This also put a lot of uneven wear on my cogs where 4-5-6 were very worn out and were trash with the replacement chain (other gears were fine). 
Now I try to use all my gears to go easier on my drivetrain and to even out the wear on the cogs. I also keep better track of chain wear so I don't have to keep buying new cogs when my chain goes.


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