# Hermitage club



## Smellytele (Oct 28, 2013)

Just saw a commercial for the Hermitage club at Haystack. Anyone else see it?


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## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2013)

Saw a picture on the NELSAP board of the components of their new chairlift that they are working on right now.


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## dmw (Oct 28, 2013)

Yeah, saw that; a pretty high profile spot to debut.


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## drjeff (Oct 28, 2013)

dmw said:


> Yeah, saw that; a pretty high profile spot to debut.



I now know why one of my friends, who's part of the marketing department at the Hermitage Club was asking a bunch of FB friends if we were all watching the series tonight 

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## deadheadskier (Oct 28, 2013)

saw it too.  that must have cost a few bucks


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## Cornhead (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't need a private ski hill, Plattekill is a day trip.

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## thetrailboss (Oct 28, 2013)

Is their target audience still the uber rich?


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## WWF-VT (Oct 28, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Just saw a commercial for the Hermitage club at Haystack. Anyone else see it?



Saw it on FOX-25 here in Boston.


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## Puck it (Oct 29, 2013)

thetrailboss said:


> Is their target audience still the uber rich?




I think you meant well off.  If I were rich, I would have a place in Jackson Hole.   

If uber rich, I would own the damn mountain.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 29, 2013)

Cornhead said:


> I don't need a private ski hill, Plattekill is a day trip.
> 
> Sent on my new, 2 year old, DROID X2 using AlpineZone mobile app



Millions of people there.


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## drjeff (Oct 29, 2013)

Puck it said:


> I think you meant well off.  If I were rich, I would have a place in Jackson Hole.
> 
> If uber rich, I would own the damn mountain.



I'd say its more like the very rich, not über rich 

I mean the members will actually have to share a base lodge with other members! Although they will have their own private lockers and the base lodge will have a bowling alley and lap pool in it 

Plus it will actually be about a 5 mile drive from the newly refurbished and expanded to accommodate small to medium private jets, Mount Snow airstrip and heliport. If it was an über rich scenario, then they'd have enough cash to build a runway at the base of the mountain! :lol:

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## tnt (Oct 29, 2013)

So, not that I am joining any time soon, but it says the family membership comes with 1 alpine ski pass?  that doesn't make sense.

Also, it's only open Friday to Sunday, plus holiday weeks, which I guess makes a certain kind of sense, but seems a little lame at the same time.  For that kind of money, wouldn't you want to be able to ski literally when ever you want? 

Has anyone ever skied there?


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## drjeff (Oct 29, 2013)

tnt said:


> So, not that I am joining any time soon, but it says the family membership comes with 1 alpine ski pass?  that doesn't make sense.
> 
> Also, it's only open Friday to Sunday, plus holiday weeks, which I guess makes a certain kind of sense, but seems a little lame at the same time.  For that kind of money, wouldn't you want to be able to ski literally when ever you want?
> 
> Has anyone ever skied there?



Think smaller Okemo-esque feeling terrain with a bit of a flat section in the middle.  The set up of the mountain is there's basically a mid-mountain "false summit" type topography where one of the main base lifts heads too, then there's 2 other "summits" , one off the the left as you look up from the mid mountain false summit, that's what they call the Witches and is a 4 or 5 trail expert pod with about 6-700 feet of verts, and then as you look up from the base past the false summit area is the true summit, which adds on another 400 or so verts from the false summit.

Lastly, a transfer lift ride away from the base area is the "lower mountain" pod of terrain which is maybe 400 feet of verts, and is actually a very nice beginner/lower intermediate pod of terrain.  The mountain basically skis as a bunch of small to moderate vert pods as opposed to continuous base to summit fallline verts.

I haven't taken the "tour" yet and skied it since its old days as "Haystack", but I do know a couple of members and folks that toured it last year, and they were impressed with the conditions, and the vision and enthusiasm that the owner and staff has for it.

They're trying to get a race program and park program going for members children, and have been hiring some good name talent and I don't doubt that they will get a decent program going soon. The Hermitage Club has also for the 1st time this year become a part of the Vermont Alpine Racing Association (VARA) which "governs" youth USSA sanctioned events in Vermont

The other thing too you have to remember, and is part of what they're selling, is its not just the skiing.  They have an extensive amount of snowmobile terrain that is linked into the VT statewide VAST trail network. They also offer for snowmobilers, once the lifts stop spinning they open up the ski trails to the sledders for a few hours.  They have a fair amount of cross country skiing and snowshoeing trails, ice skating, a lit tubing hill and a very good restaurant and pub.  In addition they have the adjacent Hermitage Golf Club which is a very solid test of mountain golf and a bunch of other outdoor non snow season activities.

As of now at least, with the exception of the skiing and on trail snowmobiling which is limited just to members and their guests, the other activities are on a "semi private" set up, where for a fee, non members can cross country ski, skate, tube, dine in the restaurant and pub and play golf (members have preferred access and advanced booking abilities).  And frankly from being a regular in the Mount Snow Valley, I doubt that too much of that set up will change, simply because there's only a small pool of potential customers in the area in reality about 300-320 days a year, and even on the "large pool" days there's still not a mega amount, and as such they will likely need some outside revenue for daily operations and staffing levels to allow for the private side of things to function as they desire without pricing the Hermitage club out of the realm of reason for the number of members that they need to function with, since ultimately they hope that some members, or in reality a bunch of members, will buy real estate on the club grounds


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## thetrailboss (Oct 29, 2013)

Puck it said:


> I think you meant well off.  If I were rich, I would have a place in Jackson Hole.
> 
> If uber rich, I would own the damn mountain.



Ha!  Very true.  I recall their pricing being pretty exclusive though.


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## madvibes (Oct 29, 2013)

Deerfield Valley Airport, Dr. Jeff


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## madvibes (Oct 29, 2013)

Keep an eye out in games 6 and 7 (if needed) in the Fox 25 Boston area.


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## drjeff (Oct 29, 2013)

madvibes said:


> Deerfield Valley Airport, Dr. Jeff



I'm owe you a beer(or maybe 6) for my faux pas D! :beer:


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## vcunning (Oct 29, 2013)

Smack! from MadVibes


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## deadheadskier (Oct 29, 2013)

Looks like the Hermitage Club probably has the most open terrain in the US right now!

All five lifts, 32 trails and 13 miles of skiing!

http://hermitageclub.com/the-mountain/snow-report/

:lol:

I expect a recent TR from any AZ members who belong to the Club


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## madvibes (Oct 29, 2013)

thanks deadhead - nothing to see here, folks.


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## madvibes (Oct 29, 2013)

sounds like a plan jeff!


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## madvibes (Oct 29, 2013)

hey look, it's the peanut gallery!


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## marcski (Oct 30, 2013)

My major problem with the Hermitage Club is that you have to ski Haystack.  I don't choose to ski the 'stack now why would if I was "very" or "uber" rich?


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## Quietman (Oct 30, 2013)

madvibes said:


> Keep an eye out in games 6 and 7 (if needed) in the Fox 25 Boston area.



Just saw the add in the middle of the 7th inning.  That had to cost some $$


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## Nick (Oct 31, 2013)

marcski said:


> My major problem with the Hermitage Club is that you have to ski Haystack.  I don't choose to ski the 'stack now why would if I was "very" or "uber" rich?



Probably because it's not about the skiing, not really anyway. It's about the Experience, I'm guessing, the exclusivity / etc. 

It's like a private golf club. I always thought, why would I want to just play the same course over and over and over and over again?


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## dlague (Oct 31, 2013)

Quietman said:


> Just saw the add in the middle of the 7th inning.  That had to cost some $$



Yup saw it too!  Very stepford like if you ask me!  Pay big bucks and live there or have a condo on the cape  and a condo in the mountains and enjoy two different worlds!


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## Highway Star (Oct 31, 2013)

Saw the ad too.  By the looks of their website they are dumping tons of money into it between the new lifts and lodge / clubhouse.  It's really quite the setup.  Haystack is a pretty reasonably sized mountain (second tier, eastern), especially compared to mount snow, which is right next door.  Their initial $45k membership fees are steep but nothing really when compared to the yellowstone club at $300k. 

 So, who is their market...?  Someone who is loaded, has a family, likes to ski sort of, and hates crowds...?  Someone who is going to hop in a private plane and fly up from NYC or Boston?  Or do they drive 3 hours or so from NYC?  How many days a year do they ski, 20 to 30...?  Do they come in the summer?  Is there a rental pool?

Seriously though, these sort of things are a _very_ tough sell.  If you look at what happened with Bear Creek and Ascutney in the last few years, I would be careful buying any ski property at an area that is not 100% sure to keep operating in the future.  People get very sue happy about such things.  

Personally, if I lived in a major metro area and had the funds, I would buy a property at Stowe (on mountain or very close), and fly into Burlington airport on a commuter flight on the weekends, leaving a car there during the week.


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## timm (Oct 31, 2013)

Haystack was one of the places I learned to ski and I have a lot of very fond memories of it but I cannot for the live of me imagine spending $45,000 + annual dues to ski there. 

It seems to me that a big part of the reason people pay big country club fees is for the "club" social aspect. Are you really going to get that at a place that isn't local to where you live? And if you're going to move to Vermont aren't there superior luxe options?


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## mister moose (Oct 31, 2013)

Highway Star said:


> So, who is their market...? Someone who is loaded, has a family, likes to ski sort of, and hates crowds...? Someone who is going to hop in a private plane and fly up from NYC or Boston? Or do they drive 3 hours or so from NYC? How many days a year do they ski, 20 to 30...? Do they come in the summer? Is there a rental pool?
> 
> Seriously though, these sort of things are a _very_ tough sell. If you look at what happened with Bear Creek and Ascutney in the last few years, I would be careful buying any ski property at an area that is not 100% sure to keep operating in the future. People get very sue happy about such things.
> 
> Personally, if I lived in a major metro area and had the funds, I would buy a property at Stowe (on mountain or very close), and fly into Burlington airport on a commuter flight on the weekends, leaving a car there during the week.



The problem with the commuter flight is it's the bus.  You have to get to the airport an hour early for security, and you have to leave when the bus leaves.  If you have a last minute urgent business mini crisis, you end up missing the bus.

So if you have the $$, you take your own plane.  If you get your license you can fly yourself, but not in the winter.  To fly into VT in the winter you need a fully de-iced instrument capable airplane, and the skill to fly it.  This is an extremely rare breed.  At times you will still be weathered out when the airport goes below minimums in the usual low overcast glook that abound in VT in the winter.

Then you have the logistics trade off.  To fly, you have to pack the car, drive 45 min to an hour to the airport, unpack the car and pack the airplane.  Do a pre-flight, get your clearance, and taxi out to the line to wait for take-off.  Then land at Bondville, Morrisville, Springfield, Rutland, BTV or Newport.  Taxi, tie down.  Brush off the car, unpack the plane and pack the car and drive 15-40 minutes to your ski house.  Still sound good?  Add up the time overhead to fly, and for short distances like Mt Snow, it doesn't make sense from NYC or Boston.  And that's where the money is.  The only thing that makes sense timewise is a twin engine fully IFR helicopter that lands on your lawn, but you still are weathered out for icing.  Which is a lot.  If the forecast bombs while you're in VT you have to leave the plane and drive home.  And the icing on the cake if you're the pilot is you can't drink a beer all Friday and all Sunday.  

Haystack is marketing to a niche within a niche within a niche.  You need someone wealthy enough, who likes skiing enough to drop some serious $$ on a membership and a home, but not good enough and not passionate enough to care about the skiing all that much.  It's the equivalent of buying that expensive 8 person hot tub, and only bothering to use it twice a year.  Somone who wants to drive 3 hours for an exclusive compound style VT weekend, and maybe ski a little if they feel like it.

I have no doubt this person exists.  What I do doubt is that they exist in sufficient numbers to float the club.


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## Highway Star (Oct 31, 2013)

mister moose said:


> The problem with the commuter flight is it's the bus.  You have to get to the airport an hour early for security, and you have to leave when the bus leaves.  If you have a last minute urgent business mini crisis, you end up missing the bus.



Looking at the schedule for NYC to Burlington flights _tomorrow, _they have about ten flights throughout the day, but I picked 5pm.  The only good return flight is at 7pm Sunday. $437 round trip on Jet Blue.  For someone who owns a million dollar property at Stowe, pays $1800 for a pass, and keeps a range rover at the Burlington airport - that's a pretty good deal.  Hop a cab to the airport, don't check any bags, one hour flight, grab your own car and drive a half hour or so to you ski house....yes, I'd hit that in a second.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 31, 2013)

Not bad for someone with the cash.

I remember when Jet Blue first started flying to Burlington.  Round Trip fair to NYC at the time was $99.  Then again gas was a buck a gallon back then, so airlines must have been a helluva a lot cheaper to operate too.


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## bobbutts (Oct 31, 2013)

Gut feeling is that it fails miserably, but will be interesting to watch.


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## drjeff (Oct 31, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> Gut feeling is that it fails miserably, but will be interesting to watch.



In their print ads they run in the local, Mount Snow/Deerfield Valley weekly paper they have said that to date they have over 100 members signed up so far. And that was/is before much of the ongoing infrastructure work relating to the ski area and base lodge really got going.

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## jack97 (Oct 31, 2013)

interesting idea...... bretton woods is relatively flat and so is stratton. both places cater to the "well to do" and both places are thriving.

so if HC can add some things that makes it worth it to them then it might work. if I think about it as a getaway from the daily grind that makes me easily in the upper 6 figures, I'm having a blast on hero snow conditions with no crowds... then HC did their job well.

oh yeah... they must have gourmet type eating establishment, massages and elegant health spas..... the well to do likes to be pampered.


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## Smellytele (Oct 31, 2013)

jack97 said:


> interesting idea...... bretton woods is relatively flat and so is stratton. both places cater to the "well to do" and both places are thriving.
> 
> so if HC can add some things that makes it worth it to them then it might work. if I think about it as a getaway from the daily grind that makes me easily in the upper 6 figures, I'm having a blast on hero snow conditions with no crowds... then HC did their job well.
> 
> oh yeah... they must have gourmet type eating establishment, massages and elegant health spas..... the well to do likes to be pampered.



This is a little more than the Stratton and BW crowd, with a starting point of 45k just to sniff their air.


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## slatham (Oct 31, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> This is a little more than the Stratton and BW crowd, with a starting point of 45k just to sniff their air.



Not when you think of the Stratton local who owns a condo or house, belongs to the slope side club, pays to play golf, etc etc. Oh, and they have to put up with those pesky day trippers and other locals who make it so crowded on weekends and ski off all the powder!!! For many of them the $45k is  pocket change, so the cost/benefit works.

Me, I have a more cost-effective method of avoiding the Stratton pitfalls - Bromley and Magic! But thats just me.........


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## jack97 (Oct 31, 2013)

slatham said:


> ......Oh, and they have to put up with those pesky day trippers and other locals who make it so crowded on weekends and ski off all the powder!!! For many of them the $45k is  pocket change, so the cost/benefit works.




yep. if i have the cash and if I want hero snow and terrain with no crowds then it may be worth it to me.


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## St. Bear (Oct 31, 2013)

jack97 said:


> yep. if i have the cash and if I want hero snow and terrain with no crowds then it may be worth it to me.



This is the key selling point right here.  Sure Haystack isn't going to get the snow of northern VT, but with so few people, it won't half to.

I agree with others that it's going to be a tough sell, but I can at least see where they're coming from.


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## bobbutts (Oct 31, 2013)

How much annual snowmaking budget, lift ops, ongoing fees to cover these?
saying 100 people are already on board without knowing how many are needed minimally to make it work doesn't erase the skepticism


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## ScottySkis (Oct 31, 2013)

jack97 said:


> yep. if i have the cash and if I want hero snow and terrain with no crowds then it may be worth it to me.



If you have that much cash I would just fly to SLC all the time.


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## Highway Star (Oct 31, 2013)

bobbutts said:


> How much annual snowmaking budget, lift ops, ongoing fees to cover these?
> saying 100 people are already on board without knowing how many are needed minimally to make it work doesn't erase the skepticism



Annual dues are about $5k per family, but the up front membership fees are pretty steep:

http://hermitageclub.com/membership/membership-levels/

Looks like they also offer a Private Residence Membership, which is basicly an expensive timeshare.

Not sure how they are going to be taking in enough yearly to operate a ski area of this scale.


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## jack97 (Oct 31, 2013)

Scotty said:


> If you have that much cash I would just fly to SLC all the time.



If it was me..... I would do that in a heartbeat. 

but I was just making a point about what would be the hypothetical selling point about Haystack. Last season was the first time I didn't take my daughter to BW. IIRC, that place is dead after 2:30, crowds don't like the skied off stuff. Makes sense if most don't go skiing that much.


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## jaytrem (Oct 31, 2013)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it doesn't sound like they're trying to keep the place super exclusive.  They already have to sell some tickets to Wilmington residents, due to the town owning the upper half of the mountain. I also remember reading something about them setting up ski and stay packages with some of the other hotels in the area.  Not sure exactly what they're allowed to do at this point thanks to the non-compete clause fro when Mount Snow sold the place.  But that expires pretty soon anyway.  I figure at some point they might want to go the way o some of the other clubs out there and open the weekdays to everybody and maybe keep the weekends just for the members/residents.

Also, for the non-addicted skier the place is probably just fine, especially once they have a high speed lift.  Back in the day my parents would go with the Haystack only pass.  They preferred the lack of crowds and the terrain was plenty for them.  I'm sure they're are plenty of other similar folks out there.

As for the price, yeah, the initiation fee is kinda steep these days, it was a much better deal a year or two ago.  But the annual fees don't seem too crazy as long as you take advantage of the golf part.  And they give you enough lift tickets to take care of your family and some friends for a good chunk of the season.


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## billski (Nov 1, 2013)

Nick said:


> Probably because it's not about the skiing, not really anyway. It's about the Experience, I'm guessing, the exclusivity / etc.
> 
> It's like a private golf club. I always thought, why would I want to just play the same course over and over and over and over again?



Spot on.  You're paying not for the skiing, but to keep the riff-raff out.  

Membership: $40K/individual, $45K/family
annual dues: $2500-$5000 annual dues

Property owners:
Residence: 650K+, 
plus annual dues of 25-75K
Membership: $40K/individual, $45K/family

Lots of chatter about improving private jet access.


http://www.7dvt.com/2013haystack-mountain-resurrected-private-ski-area


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## snoseek (Nov 1, 2013)

You pay a pretty good fee to join and maintain a membership at a private golf club but generally with that comes a really nice course with somewhat lower volume. Here you get the lower volume but on (IMO) a subpar mountain. Interesting to see how it all works out but in the end its good for employment locally and another area off NESLAP.


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## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2013)

Is there also a golf course as part of Hermitage as well?


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## mister moose (Nov 1, 2013)

Uh, the dues are a little higher than that if you buy a home, and they are already signaling big increases:



> At a price, of course. In addition to the initiation fee, members will still pay $2500 to $5000 more each year in dues, and even more — from $25,000 to $75,000 — if they buy a home here. “If you love it, join. If you don’t, don’t,” Pinney says simply, though he encourages potential members to decide soon. The initiation fee is climbing incrementally, “and eventually will be in the six figures,” he says.



The airport is currently a 2,650' runway with non precision approaches. The smallest lightest and read slowest jets need over 3,000 feet. To upgrade to dependable jet capability you're looking at well over a 1,000 foot runway extension and a precision landing system, and all the federal and local approvals (and $$$) that go with it. I'm throwing this in the believe-it-when-I-see-it category.  Many jets need 5,000 feet.  The one thing I do agree with is that a functional airport opens up the market to include aircraft owners in a 3-500 mile radius with urban centers like Philly, Baltimore and DC. But all the winter operation issues and hassles still apply. And with all those hassles, why not go to Vail or Aspen? Because it's still just Haystack.  For a six figure annual dues?   Niche within a niche within a niche.


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## drjeff (Nov 1, 2013)

Smellytele said:


> Is there also a golf course as part of Hermitage as well?



Yup, the Haystack Golf course has been renamed as the Hermitage Golf Club. It's semi private and a fun test of mountain golf

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## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2013)

drjeff said:


> Yup, the Haystack Golf course has been renamed as the Hermitage Golf Club. It's semi private and a fun test of mountain golf
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using AlpineZone mobile app



Not that I am joining but does your 40-45k to join and 5k a year get you golf as well?


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## billski (Nov 1, 2013)

Hey Mister (as they said back in the day...),

One of the first to buy in was the president and founder of Netjets.  It's a little playground.  Just like Stowe has been to AIG for many years.


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## billski (Nov 1, 2013)

Think we could get an AZ Summit there next year?


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## billski (Nov 1, 2013)

jaytrem said:


> Also, for the non-addicted skier the place is probably just fine, especially once they have a high speed lift.  Back in the day my parents would go with the Haystack only pass.  They preferred the lack of crowds and the terrain was plenty for them.  I'm sure they're are plenty of other similar folks out there.



You nailed it.  The money isn't in the highly skilled skiers.


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## AdironRider (Nov 1, 2013)

Scotty said:


> If you have that much cash I would just fly to SLC all the time.



People with that much cash don't ski SLC. SLC is a shithole with decent skiing. Rich folks go to Aspen or Jackson, which are both awesome with amazing skiing.


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## Quietman (Nov 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> People with that much cash don't ski SLC. SLC is a shithole with decent skiing. Rich folks go to Aspen or Jackson, which are both awesome with amazing skiing.



People at Deer Valley don't have money?  
I skied there once and it was 4 days after the most recent snow. We skied 2' of untracked powder in the woods all day long and had a blast.  All the wealthy folks like their trails over groomed!


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## xwhaler (Nov 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> People with that much cash don't ski SLC. SLC is a shithole with decent skiing. Rich folks go to Aspen or Jackson, which are both awesome with amazing skiing.



Add Sun Valley to this list....not sure it stacks up on the skiing side but the 2nd home wealth out there is apparent

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## ScottySkis (Nov 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> People with that much cash don't ski SLC. SLC is a shithole with decent skiing. Rich folks go to Aspen or Jackson, which are both awesome with amazing skiing.



True about the city maybe but seriously your calling Alta Snowbirds mountains decent? Have you been there, lots of people consider it some of the best winter skiing snowboarding in the country.


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## AdironRider (Nov 1, 2013)

xwhaler said:


> Add Sun Valley to this list....not sure it stacks up on the skiing side but the 2nd home wealth out there is apparent
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using AlpineZone mobile app



Sun Valley for sure, probably throw Telluride in there as well, but Aspen and Jhole are the big two.


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## AdironRider (Nov 1, 2013)

Quietman said:


> People at Deer Valley don't have money?
> I skied there once and it was 4 days after the most recent snow. We skied 2' of untracked powder in the woods all day long and had a blast.  All the wealthy folks like their trails over groomed!



Park City is full of rubes compared to Aspen and Jhole.


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## mister moose (Nov 1, 2013)

billski said:


> One of the first to buy in was the president and founder of Netjets. It's a little playground. Just like Stowe has been to AIG for many years.



Saw that.  Doesn't mean he understands small airport winter ops in the northeast.  Doesn't mean he knows runway requirements from a pilot's point of view.  Doesn't mean he ever cracked a POH.  (Aircraft manual) I once worked for an airline where the president of the company (an MBA type, not an ops guy) thought he scored a big deal when he bought a fleet of parked jets for cheap.  Then he found out he'd have to refuel to the target city pair or lose half the passenger capacity of the plane right off the top.  Sorta cut into profitability.  That plus some other bad moves put the company into receivership.

I have no dog in this.  Don't really care either way, in fact I'd lean towards hoping they make it.  But the jet talk is just sizzle at this point from what I can tell, not substance.  That's my overall point.  Developers often inflate sales figures to drive interest early on.


I know just too many people with bux that do all their skiing out west.   And these aren't even private jet people.  So that shapes my opinion.  I think it's going to be a struggle.


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## AdironRider (Nov 1, 2013)

mister moose said:


> Saw that.  Doesn't mean he understands small airport winter ops in the northeast.  Doesn't mean he knows runway requirements from a pilot's point of view.  Doesn't mean he ever cracked a POH.  (Aircraft manual) I once worked for an airline where the president of the company (an MBA type, not an ops guy) thought he scored a big deal when he bought a fleet of parked jets for cheap.  Then he found out he'd have to refuel to the target city pair or lose half the passenger capacity of the plane right off the top.  Sorta cut into profitability.  That plus some other bad moves put the company into receivership.
> 
> I have no dog in this.  Don't really care either way, in fact I'd lean towards hoping they make it.  But the jet talk is just sizzle at this point from what I can tell, not substance.  That's my overall point.  Developers often inflate sales figures to drive interest early on.
> 
> ...



The NetJets guy also has a 5 or so million condo at the Seasons slopeside in Jackson. Doubt this is a primary usage type thing here. Also, you seem to think that these rich guys are going to be flying themselves. Please. In your breakdown earlier, its more like driven to airport in Maybach by Jeeves, drink 2 bottle of Dom with friends on my 30 minute flight to SVT, Jeeves drives us to slopeside digs, ...profit. This drive yourself and scrape of the car thing is pure bullshit for the clientel you think will do it.


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## jack97 (Nov 1, 2013)

I have no dog in this as well. In one way I hope this fails big, I really hate this trend that the ski/board industry is trying and have attracted the rich into this activity.

A couple things to consider... making a place uber exclusive is a stronger selling point where it becomes a status symbol. IMO, HC is well on it way to doing that. The other, time is money. I believe, travel time to the west is still 3-4 hours even in a private jet. If they can spend half the time going to their exclusive playground with friends and family then why not.


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## AdironRider (Nov 1, 2013)

jack97 said:


> I have no dog in this as well. In one way I hope this fails big, I really hate this trend that the ski/board industry is trying and have attracted the rich into this activity.
> 
> A couple things to consider... making a place uber exclusive is a stronger selling point where it becomes a status symbol. IMO, HC is well on it way to doing that. The other, time is money. I believe, travel time to the west is still 3-4 hours even in a private jet. If they can spend half the time going to their exclusive playground with friends and family then why not.



Lets be real here, skiing is never going to be a sport for the masses. Between gear, gas, lift tickets, ETC even the best deal finder out there is still rocking a middle class income to really get after it. Especially families. Skiing will never ever be a sport like basketball where anyone with a pair of sneakers can go to the park and play a pick up game.


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## mister moose (Nov 1, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> The NetJets guy also has a 5 or so million condo at the Seasons slopeside in Jackson. Doubt this is a primary usage type thing here. Also, you seem to think that these rich guys are going to be flying themselves. Please. In your breakdown earlier, its more like driven to airport in Maybach by Jeeves, drink 2 bottle of Dom with friends on my 30 minute flight to SVT, Jeeves drives us to slopeside digs, ...profit. This drive yourself and scrape of the car thing is pure bullshit for the clientel you think will do it.



Just like skiers come in all flavors, so do aircraft owners. There are many, many, many aircraft owners that fly themselves. For them, there is no Jeeves. 

In it's current form, Jeeves doesn't fly to MT Snow airport, and he doesn't pick you up. At it's fanciest you have the 4 year old Benz SUV in the T-hangar waiting for you. Pull it out, hook up the winch, pull the plane into the T-hangar and drive to your ski house. Maybe the Hermatage sends a car out for you instead, but you still have to put the airplane away yourself.  There is no way you would ever let a shuttle driver operate your multimillion dollar airplane, that you trust your life in on the trip home.  Or even the tow vehicle.

It's a function of the limitations of the runway, approach, and the kind of owners that own those airplanes capable of getting there. (ie a 2600' runway)

It's clear you don't know what you're talking about, you're just going on armchair stereotypes. You are used to cars, which all go equally well to the same place. Not so with airplanes. Airplanes need airports, and airports vary tremendously in capability and the aircraft that can use them.

Jeeves will hardly ever go to SVT, it's in Botswana. (yes, I know you mean Southern VT) 4V8 is in Dover VT, and Jeeves doesn't fly there either. Jeeves flies to Nantucket, the Vineyard, Palm Beach, places like that. Some you wouldn't guess, like Ocala where many race horse farms are. But trust me, the Ocala boys aren't going to West Dover in any significant number.


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## darent (Nov 1, 2013)

mister moose said:


> Just like skiers come in all flavors, so do aircraft owners. There are many, many, many aircraft owners that fly themselves. For them, there is no Jeeves.
> 
> In it's current form, Jeeves doesn't fly to MT Snow airport, and he doesn't pick you up. At it's fanciest you have the 4 year old Benz SUV in the T-hangar waiting for you. Pull it out, hook up the winch, pull the plane into the T-hangar and drive to your ski house. Maybe the Hermatage sends a car out for you instead, but you still have to put the airplane away yourself.  There is no way you would ever let a shuttle driver operate your multimillion dollar airplane, that you trust your life in on the trip home.  Or even the tow vehicle.
> 
> ...



tell jeeves to stay out of Nantucket, His jet fuel pollutes our environment!!


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## mister moose (Nov 1, 2013)

darent said:


> tell jeeves to stay out of Nantucket, His jet fuel pollutes our environment!!



LOL. I used to fly you guys on a daily basis to the mainland, which was also Jet A.  And if you don't fly, you take the ferry which burns diesel.  (FYI, Jet A is highly refined kerosene.)  And geez, how many cars are there on Nantucket which is like all of 7 miles to anywhere?  Everyone contributes.  Some more than others though.

And now that I think about it, it's a rare day when the jet exhaust doesn't blow downwind off the island.  The end of Rwy 6 is the ocean, right?


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## Hawkshot99 (Nov 1, 2013)

I talked to a lady today from the club at the Albany ski show. She said they have sold every house property as wwell as all of the condos. They have decided to add 4 more condo buildings.
They said the mtn is 100% new fan guns snowmaking.

Sent from my SGH-S959G using Tapatalk 2


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## ss20 (Nov 1, 2013)

Anyone else find it super ironic that Haystack...err...Hermitage Club uses the same snow report graphics as Mount Snow?
Could this be on purpose?   :razz:

http://hermitageclub.com/the-mountain/snow-report/
http://mountsnow.com/snow-report/


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## bobbutts (Nov 2, 2013)

mister moose said:


> Just like skiers come in all flavors, so do aircraft owners. There are many, many, many aircraft owners that fly themselves. For them, there is no Jeeves.
> 
> In it's current form, Jeeves doesn't fly to MT Snow airport, and he doesn't pick you up. At it's fanciest you have the 4 year old Benz SUV in the T-hangar waiting for you. Pull it out, hook up the winch, pull the plane into the T-hangar and drive to your ski house. Maybe the Hermatage sends a car out for you instead, but you still have to put the airplane away yourself.  There is no way you would ever let a shuttle driver operate your multimillion dollar airplane, that you trust your life in on the trip home.  Or even the tow vehicle.
> 
> ...



Settle down.


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## darent (Nov 2, 2013)

mister moose said:


> LOL. I used to fly you guys on a daily basis to the mainland, which was also Jet A.  And if you don't fly, you take the ferry which burns diesel.  (FYI, Jet A is highly refined kerosene.)  And geez, how many cars are there on Nantucket which is like all of 7 miles to anywhere?  Everyone contributes.  Some more than others though.
> 
> And now that I think about it, it's a rare day when the jet exhaust doesn't blow downwind off the island.  The end of Rwy 6 is the ocean, right?



you should live near the airport, and on wet days see the shimmer of unburned jet fuel all over the leaves and grasses. you can smell it  and taste it. I don't remember that when it was just the none turbine aircraft.prevailing wind in the summer is SW which blows everything over the island. end of 6 is the ocean, don't you take off into the wind, thus you take off toward the ocean.every thing contributes , but can't we cut some of it down


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## canobie#1 (Nov 3, 2013)

The only good spot at haystack is the witches, but it's never open..kinda like south ridge at killlington or kidderbrook at stratton.


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## mister moose (Nov 3, 2013)

darent said:


> you should live near the airport, and on wet days see the shimmer of unburned jet fuel all over the leaves and grasses. you can smell it and taste it. I don't remember that when it was just the none turbine aircraft.prevailing wind in the summer is SW which blows everything over the island. end of 6 is the ocean, don't you take off into the wind, thus you take off toward the ocean.every thing contributes , but can't we cut some of it down



Yes, you do take off and land into the wind.  I never kept track, but it seemed like we used 6 far more often.  If the wind is light it doesn't matter, and 6 has the ILS precision approach so it's the default active runway.  The standard SW breeze builds in the afternoon, so morning flights are less affected.  Also, any time the wind is between 330 and 150 6 is used.  Cold front passage NW breezes can be in that sector.  On takeoff if the winds are light 6 points you towards Hyannis and Boston.  Although coming from Hyannis on a clear day 24 is a shorter approach, but landings are low power high glide conditions.

Rotting vegetation produces a natural oil sheen in damp places and it looks just like oil.  You're either seeing this, or you're seeing something I was not aware of; unburnt fuel residue.  The usual residue is soot.


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## jack97 (Nov 3, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> Lets be real here, skiing is never going to be a sport for the masses. Between gear, gas, lift tickets, ETC even the best deal finder out there is still rocking a middle class income to really get after it. Especially families. Skiing will never ever be a sport like basketball where anyone with a pair of sneakers can go to the park and play a pick up game.



Here's a quote from their web site:

The Hermitage Club is the ideal atmosphere for families and friends to share and enjoy the beauty of the four seasons in Vermont. *Ski corduroy all day long*. Tee off when you like. Hike and mountain bike in peace. All on your private mountain.


Technology in ski design and grooming has made transform this sport into an oppressive era of overgrooming. As Glen Plake said, is you want to carve go buy a carving ski, imo ski vendors lay out big bucks to try to figure out how to get people to buy new ski every year. And ski areas overgroom to attract intermediates who have the time and money. 

In general, the sport has turn into a heavy skill base activity like golf. Where gear is perceived to be just as important on how skilled you are. Still can't figure why rockers and fatties are needed in NE. Let alone why a mogul ski retails over $1K. If you have the money, the industry has done a good job of making you feel the latest gear is the best thing to ski the corduroy.


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## Quietman (Nov 3, 2013)

jack97 said:


> If you have the money, the industry has done a good job of making you feel the latest gear is the best thing to ski the corduroy.



My father subscribed to this theory, and as a result, I now ski on 4 pairs of his castoffs from his upgrades to the "latest and greatest".


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## twinplanx (Nov 3, 2013)

darent said:


> tell jeeves to stay out of Nantucket, His jet fuel pollutes our environment!!



http://www.celebritynetworth.com/ar...-embarrassing-private-jet-flight-of-all-time/ 
Speaking if polluting the environment... 

Sent from my SCH-S735C using Tapatalk


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## arik (Nov 4, 2013)

Scotty said:


> If you have that much cash I would just fly to SLC all the time.



+1


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## AdironRider (Nov 5, 2013)

mister moose said:


> Just like skiers come in all flavors, so do aircraft owners. There are many, many, many aircraft owners that fly themselves. For them, there is no Jeeves.
> 
> In it's current form, Jeeves doesn't fly to MT Snow airport, and he doesn't pick you up. At it's fanciest you have the 4 year old Benz SUV in the T-hangar waiting for you. Pull it out, hook up the winch, pull the plane into the T-hangar and drive to your ski house. Maybe the Hermatage sends a car out for you instead, but you still have to put the airplane away yourself.  There is no way you would ever let a shuttle driver operate your multimillion dollar airplane, that you trust your life in on the trip home.  Or even the tow vehicle.
> 
> ...



I have my private pilots license. First job was working at Hampton Airfield and they paid me in flight time/school. Awesome gig if there are any seacoast NH guys with teenage sons. To this day the best job I ever had, now if only I could pay for Avgas these days. - Im with you though, there are plenty of guys who like to fly themselves, and like skiing its not exactly a sport for the masses. Where did I argue about runway length? You've clearly worked yourself into a tizzy over nothing here. But your full of shit if you think the average guy with a private jet is flying himself, those are guys like me and you in Cessna 172's and old Piper Cubs. Its maybe 10% of the flights here in Jackson. You are equating guys like me and you as the norm, we're not.


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## mister moose (Nov 6, 2013)

AdironRider said:


> ... - Im with you though, there are plenty of guys who like to fly themselves, and like skiing its not exactly a sport for the masses. Where did I argue about runway length? You've clearly worked yourself into a tizzy over nothing here. But your full of shit if you think the average guy with a private jet is flying himself, those are guys like me and you in Cessna 172's and old Piper Cubs. Its maybe 10% of the flights here in Jackson. You are equating guys like me and you as the norm, we're not.



I'm not 'in a tizzy', I just like to explain to folks what aviation is really like, not what the media and Hollywood portrays it as.  Usually it's explaining how safe it is, or how effective a business tool it is,  but here it's what the owner cross section is like.  And yes, there are many guys who fly their own jets.  Some with a crew, some alone in the light small jets that are certified single pilot.  The whole class of single pilot jets are built specifically for the owner-pilot.  And there's a lot between a 172 and a G5, Morgan Freeman flies a Ce421 for example.  Chris Reeves flew a 58 Baron.  I know a clothing retailer that flies an Aerostar.  A CFO that flies an MU-2.  Arnold Palmer flew his own Citations and Lears.  But most are businessmen who's name isn't famous.  

I'm just expressing my opinion of who is going to be attracted to buy a home at Hermitage Club.  My previous point was that A) Jets aren't going to Mt Snow, B) most aircraft that will land there are owner flown, C) Mentioning jets and Hermitage Club in the same sentence is pure marketing sizzle bs, and [new comment] D) Even promising there will be corduroy all day long is pure sizzle as all it takes is 30-50 skier runs on a trail to eat up all the corduroy.  Not skied off, sure.  

As for the average private jet not being owner flown, you're right.  And the bigger the jet the more it is true.  Most owners never gain the experience and training necessary, or have no desire to do so.  Some that do have the ability still hire crew because they don't want the limitations and demands that being the PIC brings with it.  Some  hop out of the crew flown corporate jet on Friday afternoon and get into their personal piston twin and fly to their weekend home.

And while I have flown a 172, my depth of experience goes a wee bit further.


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## woofydoggie (Sep 1, 2014)

Apparently they want to install a hs 6 pack bubble, like mount snow's. :I


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## Edd (Sep 1, 2014)

woofydoggie said:


> Apparently they want to install a hs 6 pack bubble, like mount snow's. :I



Care to share a source for this info?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 1, 2014)

Wouldn't a HSS be total overkill for an area that doesn't and probably never will have lift lines?


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## Edd (Sep 1, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Wouldn't a HSS be total overkill for an area that doesn't and probably never will have lift lines?



The only justification I can see is to enhance the pampered experience that might come with a private ski area. Although some would argue a gondola would do that better, I'd personally prefer a bubble chair.


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## woofydoggie (Sep 1, 2014)

Sorry, I heard it over at skilifts forums

The Hermitage Club wants to build a summit bubble six-pack in 2015:

http://www.reformer....ent-at-haystack


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## woofydoggie (Sep 1, 2014)

Soon enough, there's going to be a gondola from the airport to the lodge.........


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## Edd (Sep 1, 2014)

woofydoggie said:


> Sorry, I heard it over at skilifts forums
> 
> The Hermitage Club wants to build a summit bubble six-pack in 2015:
> 
> http://www.reformer....ent-at-haystack



Link no worky. I'm on a smartphone but I doubt that matters.


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## bobbutts (Sep 1, 2014)

Edd said:


> Link no worky. I'm on a smartphone but I doubt that matters.


You are correct, it was a bad link in the post you quoted.. Here is the actual link.
Hermitage Club proposes lift replacement at Haystack


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 1, 2014)

Looks like they are following the "go big or go home" philosophy. I'll be amazed if there is ever 6 people on one chair, yet alone an actual wait in the queue. 

I'm guessing they are trying to generate PR to stimulate sales. If so, I'd say it's working, at least the first part


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## drjeff (Sep 1, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Looks like they are following the "go big or go home" philosophy. I'll be amazed if there is ever 6 people on one chair, yet alone an actual wait in the queue.
> 
> I'm guessing they are trying to generate PR to stimulate sales. If so, I'd say it's working, at least the first part



My hunch is in the big scheme of things a bubble six pack isn't that much more $$ than a bubble quad, BUT the six pack weighs a bunch more than a quad which will allow operations on all but the windiest days that show up in VT in the winter.

In no way is it about capacity in this case! Although I will admit to knowing a few member families who need more than a quad to allow them to ride together ;-)


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 1, 2014)

drjeff said:


> My hunch is in the big scheme of things a bubble six pack isn't that much more $$ than a bubble quad, BUT the six pack weighs a bunch more than a quad which will allow operations on all but the windiest days that show up in VT in the winter.
> 
> In no way is it about capacity in this case! Although I will admit to knowing a few member families who need more than a quad to allow them to ride together ;-)



IDK....beefier towers, longer cross arms, bigger sheaves, thicker haul rope, not to mention stronger engine. All in all just beefier everything. I bet it adds up.

Not sure of a recent 4 pack bubble that the price can be compared to


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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2014)

They don't need it, the same as they didn't need the two new Quads (capacity wise) - but it comes down to convenience for the guests. If they are paying top dollar, why not put the whole family on the same chair? They aren't short of cash.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2014)

Maybe I'm wrong, but such senseless expenditures could bring the place down. 

As much as crowd free slopes and no lift lines would be appealing, if I were uber rich, I'd be joining the the Stowe Mountain Club over Hermitage. 

For essentially the same money at Stowe you get 2 adult ski season passes, unlimited access to their two golf courses with free cart rental, unlimited access to their Spa, free valet parking at the private slopeside Alpine Club with locker rooms and private restaurant.  All of that at a much more compelling 4 season destination with far more off hill activities to enjoy.


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## Glenn (Sep 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but such senseless expenditures could bring the place down.
> 
> As much as crowd free slopes and no lift lines would be appealing, if I were uber rich, I'd be joining the the Stowe Mountain Club over Hermitage.
> 
> For essentially the same money at Stowe you get 2 adult ski season passes, unlimited access to their two golf courses with free cart rental, unlimited access to their Spa, free valet parking at the private slopeside Alpine Club with locker rooms and private restaurant.  All of that at a much more compelling 4 season destination with far more off hill activities to enjoy.



I imagine part of what they're going for is proximity to NY/NJ and possibly Boston. While it is a good chunk of change to join, it's certainly not "I have my own private jet" kind of money.


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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but such senseless expenditures could bring the place down.
> 
> As much as crowd free slopes and no lift lines would be appealing, if I were uber rich, I'd be joining the the Stowe Mountain Club over Hermitage.
> 
> For essentially the same money at Stowe you get 2 adult ski season passes, unlimited access to their two golf courses with free cart rental, unlimited access to their Spa, free valet parking at the private slopeside Alpine Club with locker rooms and private restaurant.  All of that at a much more compelling 4 season destination with far more off hill activities to enjoy.



And for 130 less miles and 2 less hours they can get a completely empty mountain and the exact same things you mentioned.

"4 season destination" is subjective. Plenty to do around Wilmington, it is an awesome town.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2014)

From NYC and CT sure its much more convenient.  Boston the difference is not as great.  To each their own, but I'd rather share my skiing experience withe the masses at a mountain like Stowe than have a private experience at a little place like haystack that gets half the snow.  And I've been to Wilmington.  Great town but not in the same league as Stowe for abundance of things to do.


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## marcski (Sep 2, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> And for 130 less miles and 2 less hours they can get a completely empty mountain and the exact same things you mentioned.
> 
> "4 season destination" is subjective. Plenty to do around Wilmington, it is an awesome town.



Perhaps, but, you definitely won't be skiing steep, challenging, advanced terrain at the Hermitage club, ever, no matter how much money they pour into the place.


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## drjeff (Sep 2, 2014)

marcski said:


> Perhaps, but, you definitely won't be skiing steep, challenging, advanced terrain at the Hermitage club, ever, no matter how much money they pour into the place.



You're making the assumption that their target audience IS looking for steep, challenging advanced terrain though. 

I can honestly say that I now know quite a few Hermitage members.  And their skiing abilities range from former elite level racer to nationally ranked masters tele skier to spouses and kids who find most beginner trails a challenege.

The thing though that the majority of members that I know have in common for why they joined, is it's the whole 4 season club experience that the Hermitage is offering, and really starting to deliver. It's more about sitting around with friends and family after a day on the hill or a day on the links or a day on the various hiking/snowmobiling trails or bodies of water near by and enjoying everyone's company in a NICE location than it necessarily is about what type of terrain one may have skied earlier in the day.

For the 1st time this past weekend, after talking with some friends, who are Hermitage members, while we were all at the Mount Snow Brewer's Festival, my wife said too me "I'm really starting to think that we're eventually going to end up kicking ourselves for not getting into the Hermitage Club at it's initial price offering a few years ago, and NOT for the skiing, but for the people involved with it"

Unless you've seen the whole package they're offering firsthand, it's really kind of tough to grasp what it's all about


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## marcski (Sep 2, 2014)

drjeff said:


> You're making the assumption that their target audience IS looking for steep, challenging advanced terrain though.
> 
> I can honestly say that I now know quite a few Hermitage members.  And their skiing abilities range from former elite level racer to nationally ranked masters tele skier to spouses and kids who find most beginner trails a challenge.
> 
> ...



I didn't make any assumption.  I just stated a fact.  Obviously, I am not their target audience because, personally, I am looking for skiing first and above all else.


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## Edd (Sep 2, 2014)

drjeff said:


> You're making the assumption that their target audience IS looking for steep, challenging advanced terrain though.
> 
> I can honestly say that I now know quite a few Hermitage members.  And their skiing abilities range from former elite level racer to nationally ranked masters tele skier to spouses and kids who find most beginner trails a challenege.
> 
> ...




Unfortunately, I'm not in the income bracket for that place but I feel you there. I could dig having a nice, uncrowded mountain to hang out at with top notch service. Maybe someday I'll manage to take a peek at the place. 

In their brochure, they should post a pic of Loon's main lodge on a Saturday right next to a pic of their lodge on the same day. Memberships would fly out the door.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2014)

drjeff said:


> You're making the assumption that their target audience IS looking for steep, challenging advanced terrain though.
> 
> I can honestly say that I now know quite a few Hermitage members.  And their skiing abilities range from former elite level racer to nationally ranked masters tele skier to spouses and kids who find most beginner trails a challenege.
> 
> ...



And Stowe offers the exact same thing at their Alpine Club for essentially the same money.  The only difference is you have to share the mountain.


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## bobbutts (Sep 2, 2014)

I think a high speed summit lift makes sense, the current ride according to the article is 15 minutes, which is simply too long for a premium resort.  I'd guess that in the future they'll wish they had the cash instead of the extra 2 seats and the bubbles and the associated other stuff with the upgraded lift.  Who knows though, the bubble could be considered a marketing expense and I don't really know how much cost all that stuff adds.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> And Stowe offers the exact same thing at their Alpine Club for essentially the same money.  *The only difference is you have to share the mountain.*



Well, sort of. You can still ski Stowe without an alpine club membership though. You can't ski HC without a membership, and that's where they are trying to pull members in. I've never skied Haystack, so I'm not sure what I'm missing. 

As far as the 4 vs 6 pack, maybe the cost will be the same? I think it was said in one of the articles that there would only be 88 chairs. If they have longer chair spacing which causes the same amount of weight to be on the haulrope at any given time, then in THEORY the only difference between the two types of lifts would be the crossarms attached to the towers,


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## marcski (Sep 2, 2014)

bobbutts said:


> I think a high speed summit lift makes sense, the current ride according to the article is 15 minutes, which is simply too long for a *premium* resort.  I'd guess that in the future they'll wish they had the cash instead of the extra 2 seats and the bubbles and the associated other stuff with the upgraded lift.  Who knows though, the bubble could be considered a marketing expense and I don't really know how much cost all that stuff adds.



IMHO, you cannot have a premium ski resort if you don't have premium terrain.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

15 minutes is definitely too long for that size hill if you intend to offer a premium product.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

marcski said:


> IMHO, you cannot have a premium ski resort if you don't have premium terrain.


It depends on what you value.  The people buying into Haystack are not buying into premium terrain.  They are buying into a crowd-free environment.  They are buying into golf.  They are buying into an upper-tier clientele.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 2, 2014)

marcski said:


> IMHO, you cannot have a premium ski resort if you don't have premium terrain.



I don't think the AZ definition of "premium" matches the rest of general ski population. The majority of skiers enjoy groomed blue cruisers, which Haystack seems to offer.


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## Domeskier (Sep 2, 2014)

marcski said:


> IMHO, you cannot have a premium ski resort if you don't have premium terrain.



Satan's Staircase might already be taken, but perhaps he'd be willing to locate his Couloir up at Haystack.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 2, 2014)

Haystack brags about grooming during the day and not just at night.  So, yes, their members better enjoy groomers.


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## Edd (Sep 2, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> I don't think the AZ definition of "premium" matches the rest of general ski population. The majority of skiers enjoy groomed blue cruisers, which Haystack seems to offer.



Yeah, this is simply true. Is there a private ski area in existence that offers what typical AZ members would consider premium terrain?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> Well, sort of. You can still ski Stowe without an alpine club membership though. You can't ski HC without a membership, and that's where they are trying to pull members in. I've never skied Haystack, so I'm not sure what I'm missing.
> 
> As far as the 4 vs 6 pack, maybe the cost will be the same? I think it was said in one of the articles that there would only be 88 chairs. If they have longer chair spacing which causes the same amount of weight to be on the haulrope at any given time, then in THEORY the only difference between the two types of lifts would be the crossarms attached to the towers,



Right, but Jeff was talking mainly about the social component outside if skiing.  All of that is available at Stowe's alpine club.  Posh private lodge, locker rooms and private restaurant for the gilded class to hang out at away from the plebeians.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Right, but Jeff was talking mainly about the social component outside if skiing.  All of that is available at Stowe's alpine club.  Posh private lodge, locker rooms and private restaurant for the gilded class to hang out at away from the plebeians.



I think Stratton has that, or at least they did. I remember reading an article on it like 10 years ago, cost was around $50,000.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 2, 2014)

Edd said:


> Yeah, this is simply true. Is there a private ski area in existence that offers what typical AZ members would consider premium terrain?



From what I've heard, Yellowstone Club has legit double black terrain, and has been hailed as  "Lift serviced backcountry skiing." Only difference is that you don't really need to be "uber rich" for an HC membership, while with Yellowstone club you have to buy one their houses and have a net worth of at least 3 million.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2014)

Stowe's is 30k nonrefundable initiation or 60k fully refundable after 5 years.  9k annual dues (waived) 1st year.


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## Domeskier (Sep 2, 2014)

I suspect that people buying into HC can afford a day ticket to Stowe if they ever get the urge to toss their skis off the kitchen wall.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 2, 2014)

Found it. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/18/travel/18club.html?pagewanted=print&position=&_r=0

This is from 2005, not sure if it's still around.


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## Domeskier (Sep 2, 2014)

you can view the brochure here:

http://www.stratton.com/events-and-activities/stratton-mountain-club/about-membership.aspx

Or join the waitlist for a measly $7,500.


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## Newpylong (Sep 2, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> From NYC and CT sure its much more convenient.  Boston the difference is not as great.  To each their own, but I'd rather share my skiing experience withe the masses at a mountain like Stowe than have a private experience at a little place like haystack that gets half the snow.  And I've been to Wilmington.  Great town but not in the same league as Stowe for abundance of things to do.



Still 75 more miles and 45 more minutes. Every mile and minute might make a difference coming up at 9 at night on a Friday in the snow.

I thought we were trying to put ourselves into the shoes of someone who can afford these places and not ourselves? I think all of US would probably choose Stowe.

However it's quite possible that the people choosing the Hermitage don't care about more snow when the place has 95% snowmaking. Maybe they are going to Vermont to escape "an abundance of things to do" and just relax in their condos with their family.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 2, 2014)

Why are you arguing with me?  I did say if "I" was rich I'd choose Stowe Alpine Club.


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## mlctvt (Sep 2, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It depends on what you value.  The people buying into Haystack are not buying into premium terrain.  They are buying into a crowd-free environment.  They are buying into golf.  They are buying into an upper-tier clientele.



I agree, a friend who purchased a membership for his family said this was the main reason they bought into the Hermitage club. They will still ski Mount Snow every weekend morning but once the kids are out of their morning program then the entire family will head to Haystack for most likely fresh tracks and no crowds. I'll have to take him up on his offer to try the place this winter!


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## Glenn (Sep 3, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> I don't think the AZ definition of "premium" matches the rest of general ski population. The majority of skiers enjoy groomed blue cruisers, which Haystack seems to offer.



Well said. I'm sure many folks who join there are happy with the terrain. And most likely, enjoy going out to ski whenever and not having to worry about crowds or lines. If they sleep in, they'll still get some good runs. 

For many, it's probably more about getting away, vs. going first to last chair and killing it with vertical on their ski tracker apps.


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## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Why are you arguing with me?  I did say if "I" was rich I'd choose Stowe Alpine Club.



You can reply and I can't? Loose the attitude, we aren't "arguing".

The discussion was about what might draw someone to one or the other. This is a discussion isn't it?


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## VTKilarney (Sep 3, 2014)




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## skiNEwhere (Sep 3, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> View attachment 13555



Your knot joking our ewe? Grammer nazi


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## deadheadskier (Sep 3, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> You can reply and I can't? Loose the attitude, we aren't "arguing".
> 
> The discussion was about what might draw someone to one or the other. This is a discussion isn't it?



Did I say you can't reply?  Attitude?  :lol:   

I was never trying to discuss what others would do with that kind of disposable income.  You starting interjecting the benefits of Hermitage Club against what I said would be *my* preference. You don't need to sell me on what others might find more appealing with Hermitage vs. Stowe Alpine Club.  I did say "to each their own, but this is what *I* would do."    There will be people like myself or marcski where the terrain is the most compelling factor.  There are people like me who prefer a place that's more lively year round with the better dining and entertainment that Stowe has over Wilmington.   And there will be people who like the laid back completely private Hermitage.   It's all good.  I don't really care where other people like to ski or vacation; whether they're a low budget everyday Joe like myself or Donald Trump.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 3, 2014)

IDK about you guys but if I were like warren buffet rich, you'd find me at the Yellowstone club....


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## Domeskier (Sep 3, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> IDK about you guys but if I were like warren buffet rich, you'd find me at the Yellowstone club....



If I were that rich, I might even join _two_ clubs!


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## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Did I say you can't reply?  Attitude?  :lol:
> 
> I was never trying to discuss what others would do with that kind of disposable income.  You starting interjecting the benefits of Hermitage Club against what I said would be *my* preference. You don't need to sell me on what others might find more appealing with Hermitage vs. Stowe Alpine Club.  I did say "to each their own, but this is what *I* would do."    There will be people like myself or marcski where the terrain is the most compelling factor.  There are people like me who prefer a place that's more lively year round with the better dining and entertainment that Stowe has over Wilmington.   And there will be people who like the laid back completely private Hermitage.   It's all good.  I don't really care where other people like to ski or vacation; whether they're a low budget everyday Joe like myself or Donald Trump.



Fair enough !


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## slatham (Sep 4, 2014)

Warrant Buffet rich? I'd buy Magic for weekends (and buy the necessary upgrades) and Revelstoke for holiday's. I'm a generous and social kinda guy, and I like the type of skier that frequents these areas, so they would still be open to the public, but I'd get the first hour or so solo.......


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## VTKilarney (Sep 4, 2014)

Hmm... Magic Mountain would make one hell of a private ski area...


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## Domeskier (Sep 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Hmm... Magic Mountain would make one hell of a private ski area...



I agree, but I'm not sure they thought about snow-making requirements when situating Disneyland.


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## Madroch (Sep 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> Hmm... Magic Mountain would make one hell of a private ski area...



For the majority of us on this board yes, not sure how the less fanatic more casual skier would enjoy it- unless you blew snow everwhere and buried the place- and groomed a lot more than is groomed now.  And if you did, most on this board would complain and not join.

There is a reason the masses flock to okemo, Stratton etc- while I have no data to support that a majority of casual skiers prefer good cord to bumps, reeds, stumps and ledges... But I bet they do...


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 4, 2014)

Madroch said:


> There is a reason the masses flock to okemo, Stratton etc- while I have no data to support that a majority of casual skiers prefer good cord to bumps, reeds, stumps and ledges... But I bet they do...



In short....yes

In long....yes as well, at least from what Loveland states
http://www.skiloveland.com/Loveland Ski Area 2013 Master Plan/Loveland Ski Area 2013 Master Plan.pdf


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 4, 2014)




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## bobbutts (Sep 4, 2014)

Madroch said:


> For the majority of us on this board yes, not sure how the less fanatic more casual skier would enjoy it- unless you blew snow everwhere and buried the place- and groomed a lot more than is groomed now.  And if you did, most on this board would complain and not join.
> 
> There is a reason the masses flock to okemo, Stratton etc- while I have no data to support that a majority of casual skiers prefer good cord to bumps, reeds, stumps and ledges... But I bet they do...


Some reasons:  
Those places also have lodging, so people aren't limited to a day trip.  

Lack of natural snow.  Steep natural trails are often not open until mid-season, but skier visits are really high early season, especially Christmas week.  Places like Okemo are able to offer up similar conditions on their groomed runs regardless of natural snow.  

Parks.  Not everyone is old school like most of the people here.  Clearly some people are choosing places to lap the terrain park.  Stratton, Okemo, Loon, etc.

Bumps.  All these places have at least some seeded and also natural bumps.  

Roller coasters, ziplines, etc.  Extra bang for the vacation.


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## midd (Sep 17, 2014)

Hermitage Club signs all over the big belly solar powered trash compactors around the Financial District/South station. 

Few variations, below aren't verbatim l. 
"Skiing in 45 minutes?" With some folks hopping off a private jet

"Powder all day?"



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## billski (Sep 18, 2014)

midd said:


> "Skiing in 45 minutes?" With some folks hopping off a private jet
> 
> "Powder all day?"



Know what?  Sign 'em up, let 'em go.  Gives me more table space at the picnic tables!


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## billski (Sep 18, 2014)

skiNEwhere said:


> IDK about you guys but if I were like warren buffet rich, you'd find me at the Yellowstone club....


If I was WB rich, I'd be taking my Lear Jet to the heliport and touching down on some untouched somewhere undisclosed.   At the bottom, the chopper would have my PBJ & PBR and I'd do it all over again!


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2015)

http://digital.vpr.net/post/state-charges-members-only-resort-multiple-permit-violations

Act 250 is a bitch sometimes.


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## ss20 (Feb 26, 2015)

Sounds pretty serious.


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2015)

We'll see.  VT needs the investment.  The state will act tough, but in the end I suspect it won't matter too much to the developer's wallet and long term plans.

This is a common case of a development company practicing, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."


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## drjeff (Feb 26, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://digital.vpr.net/post/state-charges-members-only-resort-multiple-permit-violations
> 
> Act 250 is a bitch sometimes.



Part of the violations cited, the turning a snowmaking pond into a recreational use pond is pretty BS IMHO - they literally just cleaned up the bank of their snowmaking pond next to their main entry house so they could put in a floating, removable dock so that members can launch a stand up paddle board or a kayak

The wind turbine (I guess that Jim Barnes, the owner of the Hermitage Club is a principle investor in a wind turbine company), if it's actually been built, is very, very small, since you can't see it from less than a mile away. Starting to build a few things before getting permits, well, that wouldn't be the 1st time they've done that.  And the reality is the fines they'd face probably are less than the cost of the current initiation fee, 65k.

Sounds a bunch like Vermont once again trying to stifle business, at a time, and in a general location, SW VT where they need all the new business investment that they can get


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## Smellytele (Feb 26, 2015)

Sounds more like a rich person doing what he wants when he wants and knowing that the state will just fold like a cheap suitcase ust like they have done before. erosion near ponds can be an issue with "oh we are just clearing a little by a pond for a rec area." They knew the rules but decided to do what they wanted.


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## Smellytele (Feb 26, 2015)

Another article adds more info...

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/news/ci_27596923/hermitage-club-charged-permit-violations


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## Jully (Feb 26, 2015)

That's some serious allegations right there. Unauthorized construction includes a entire ski lift? Wow.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 26, 2015)

Ten to One says at least 50% of this is HC simply being targeted by SOV.


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## ss20 (Feb 26, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Ten to One says at least 50% of this is HC simply being targeted by SOV.



Uh... maybe, but if everything's true they're in deep shit.  Didn't they bring a bulldozer down the Haystack-Mount Snow trail and get in big trouble for it because they had no permit?


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## twinplanx (Feb 27, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Sounds more like a rich person doing what he wants when he wants and knowing that the state will just fold like a cheap suitcase ust like they have done before. erosion near ponds can be an issue with "oh we are just clearing a little by a pond for a rec area." They knew the rules but decided to do what they wanted.


Got a problem? Throw some money at it.


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## marcski (Feb 27, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Uh... maybe, but if everything's true they're in deep shit.  Didn't they bring a bulldozer down the Haystack-Mount Snow trail and get in big trouble for it because they had no permit?


I think the point is that they merely got a slap in the wrist and threw some money that way and it went away. So, no. No big trouble. Precisely why they took the same route this time. Seems to be their M.O. now.


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## rocks860 (Feb 27, 2015)

twinplanx said:


> Got a problem? Throw some money at it.


Isn't that their official motto? Certainly fits with the clientele


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## Rutecki (Feb 27, 2015)

twinplanx said:


> Got a problem? Throw some money at it.



"The state is seeking civil penalties of no more than $85,000 for each violation and no more than $42,500 for each day a violation continued."

That's going to be a LOT of money.  Sounds like some of those violations were for weeks, months, year?


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## Domeskier (Feb 27, 2015)

Rutecki said:


> "The state is seeking civil penalties of no more than $85,000 for each violation and no more than $42,500 for each day a violation continued."
> 
> That's going to be a LOT of money.  Sounds like some of those violations were for weeks, months, year?



Looks like the cap is $85,000 per violation, no matter how long the violation continued.  Which is presumably why there are so many ridiculous allegations such as "disturbing the soil near the bunny slope."  This is clearly a money-grab by the state from what they perceive to be deep pockets and they are jumping through hoops to get at every last cent they can.


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## MMP (Feb 27, 2015)

Or an attempt by people whose primary goal is profit, circumventing environmental laws out of some perceived omnipotence. With contempt. Repeatedly.


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## freeski (Feb 27, 2015)

_"Kolber says typically such violations are handled by state agencies, but the scope and the duration of the problems warranted the Attorney General’s involvement."_

I think he meant to say: " , but the amount of money we can get..."

The mountain did something wrong here most likely. The manager of the construction was trying to skirt the law?


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## drjeff (Feb 27, 2015)

freeski said:


> _"Kolber says typically such violations are handled by state agencies, but the scope and the duration of the problems warranted the Attorney General’s involvement."_
> 
> I think he meant to say: " , but the amount of money we can get..."
> 
> The mountain did something wrong here most likely. The manager of the construction was trying to skirt the law?



My guess is that the construction manager was going to be looking at some decent "fines" imposed by The Hermitage if they didn't complete the projects they were working on by such and such a date.  The Hermitage, as they've done in the past, probably figured that obtaining the Act 250 permits would just be a formality, and that in the end, starting before said permits were in hand wouldn't be an issue.  The VT AG right now is likely thinking of the $$'s as mentioned, especially given VT's current economic situation where it's gone from a state that used to have say 10 people pulling the cart for the 1 person that really needed a ride (state assistance) to now a situation where there's more like 3 or 4 people pulling a cart of 7 or 8 people, and 1 or 2 of those doing the pulling is getting real tired and will likely stop pulling in the near future


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 27, 2015)

drjeff said:


> *VT's current economic situation where it's gone from a state that used to have say 10 people pulling the cart for the 1 person that really needed a ride (state assistance) to now a situation where there's more like 3 or 4 people pulling a cart of 7 or 8 people*,* and 1 or 2 of those doing the pulling is getting real tired and will likely stop pulling in the near future*



_Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them. _ - Margaret Thatcher


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## mbedle (Mar 4, 2015)

*Haystack Troubles*

Looks like Hermitage Club is going to get nailed pretty hard by Vermont of some permit violations. Got to wonder why they continued to do them for so long.

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=231


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## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Looks like Hermitage Club is going to get nailed pretty hard by Vermont of some permit violations. Got to wonder why they continued to do them for so long.
> 
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=231



The "pressure" to get things done and deliver on promises to the members is my hunch.

I was talking with a member last Sunday (His daughter and my daughter are friends and they both race in the same council, so he was at the race watching his daughter the same as I was).  We got talking about this subject, and as he told me (and this was based on what the members have been told) - that they (The Hermitage) aren't too worried about this, as that with now about 500 memberships sold, that they're past the "critical mass" from an operations standpoint that they need to keep the club operating annually on a self sufficient way, and still allow for the planned expansions that they have been told will happen.  He expects that the remaining couple of hundred memberships yet to be sold will be done in the next 12 -18 months, and that he also expects his annual dues to be going up to keep the level of services improving (case in point, members have a private concert by Hall and Oates in a few weeks, they had a private comedy show by Kevin Nealon a few weeks ago, and they had Kenny Loggins perform at their base lodge "grand opening" in December - that works for the members, and they are willing to pay for the entire "club" environment there)

These fines, while significant, aren't likely more than just a minor speed bump for the Hermitage


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## Domeskier (Mar 4, 2015)

drjeff said:


> (case in point, members have a private concert by Hall and Oates in a few weeks, they had a private comedy show by Kevin Nealon a few weeks ago, and they had Kenny Loggins perform at their base lodge "grand opening" in December - that works for the members, and they are willing to pay for the entire "club" environment there)



I wonder what the going rate for has-beens is... dinner and lodging?  :grin:


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## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> I wonder what the going rate for has-beens is... dinner and lodging?  :grin:



Kenny Loggins was on site for 4 days, was completely hooked up with ski equipment from one of the local shops, basically had a private day on the slopes of The Hermitage with one of the local, very personable and GREAT skiing, owners of the ski shop that supplied him with all of his gear, serving as tour guide, some really good food at the Hermitage (The Hermitage Inn is open to the public and serves some GOOD food) and then collected his pay too.  What exactly that was??

All i know is that I've heard from 4 or 5 members who went to see him on the opening night of their clubhouse, and they all had a great time and enjoyed his show


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## Domeskier (Mar 4, 2015)

drjeff said:


> Kenny Loggins was on site for 4 days, was completely hooked up with ski equipment from one of the local shops, basically had a private day on the slopes of The Hermitage with one of the local, very personable and GREAT skiing, owners of the ski shop that supplied him with all of his gear, serving as tour guide, some really good food at the Hermitage (The Hermitage Inn is open to the public and serves some GOOD food) and then collected his pay too.  What exactly that was??
> 
> All i know is that I've heard from 4 or 5 members who went to see him on the opening night of their clubhouse, and they all had a great time and enjoyed his show



Nice.  Too bad I was never anything or I'd take that deal in an instant!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2015)

They should have mandated that Kenny single "Danger Zone" at all times while skiing


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2015)

drjeff said:


> The "pressure" to get things done and deliver on promises to the members is my hunch.



That pressure combined with VT's lengthy and often complex permitting process likely led to a "build it first and deal with the consequences later" thought process.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

It's $125 per person for members to see Hall and Oates.  I suppose if you are into them it would be a pretty cool experience since the venue can't be that big.

Kevin Nealon was a bargain at $40.


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## Edd (Mar 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> They should have mandated that Kenny single "Danger Zone" at all times while skiing



It's quite a long fall from Danny's Song into the Danger Zone.


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## Domeskier (Mar 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's $125 per person for members to see Hall and Oates.  I suppose if you are into them it would be a pretty cool experience since the venue can't be that big.



Surely they wont' be the first ones to accuse Hermitage Club members of being "Out of Touch."



VTKilarney said:


> Kevin Nealon was a bargain at $40.



Probably because he's just recycling his bit about the blacks.  That's him, right?


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## marcski (Mar 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's $125 per person for members to see Hall and Oates.  I suppose if you are into them it would be a pretty cool experience since the venue can't be that big.
> 
> Kevin Nealon was a bargain at $40.


Oates is a big skier. Lives in Aspen.


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## burski (Mar 4, 2015)

marcski said:


> Oates is a big skier. Lives in Aspen.



If he is used to skiing Aspen he must have been really impressed at Hermitage...


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## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

burski said:


> If he is used to skiing Aspen he must have been really impressed at Hermitage...



On the flipside, if it happens to be a powder day when he's there, he'll be amazed that he can ski a place that doesn't get tracked out within 90 minutes of 1st chair.  I've got friends who start a powder day at Mount Snow, ski there for 2 hours tops and then drive down the street to The Hermitage, valet their car, flash their members pass and then ski the rest of the day on untracked and/or lightly tracked powder there

By far and away, the Hermitage, even if the $$ isn't an issue, isn't everyone's cup of tea, BUT they've done a very good job at taking the vision and turning it into a reality and capturing the  satisfaction of a bunch of people now.


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## x10003q (Mar 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> They should have mandated that Kenny single "Danger Zone" at all times while skiing



No need, there are no danger zones at the Stack.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2015)

:lol:  so I've heard


I just have this image of Kenny in a Turkey Tuck going down the hill belting out Danger Zone.   Sometimes my imagination is a little active. :lol:


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## Jcb890 (Mar 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> It's $125 per person for members to see Hall and Oates.  I suppose if you are into them it would be a pretty cool experience since the venue can't be that big.
> 
> Kevin Nealon was a bargain at $40.



So it costs like $75,000 to join and $5,000 per year in dues/fees, but they still charge $125 for Hall and Oates and $40 comedy shows?  Pretty nuts.


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## ironhippy (Mar 4, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> So it costs like $75,000 to join and $5,000 per year in dues/fees, but they still charge $125 for Hall and Oates and $40 comedy shows?  Pretty nuts.



if I had the money I might be interested in something like this.. but if I had that kind of money and wanted to ski powder 75 grand would buy a lot of seats on helicopters..


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## marcski (Mar 5, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> So it costs like $75,000 to join and $5,000 per year in dues/fees, but they still charge $125 for Hall and Oates and $40 comedy shows?  Pretty nuts.


No, what is pretty nuts is that your left skiing the 'Stack for thst kind of money!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 5, 2015)

Yeah, it sounds to me like you're paying HUGE money for a weekend experience you can get most places in New England on weekdays.  All on a less than thrilling mountain.  

Wouldn't be for me even if some long lost Uncle dropped a $10M nest egg on me.   But, hey if it draws some skiers away from the other Southern VT areas, that's a good thing for those high traffic mountains.


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## C-Rex (Mar 5, 2015)

I could see doing this on some killer peak out west where it's sunny and they get amazing snow (most winters, anyway), but in New England it just seems like a sub par experience for the expense.  I can't imagine wanting to spend the week at Haystack when for the $75k I could have a timeshare condo just about anywhere, and that $5k a year could fly my family out there first class.  And a lot of places are selling VIP type tickets that get them to the front of the line so that pretty much takes the crowds out of the equation.  Sure, a private mountain won't get tracked out nearly as quickly, but I'm guessing most of the people doing this aren't really the type of skiers that see that as important.  I'll bet most are intermediates who ski a few days per year and stick mostly to groomers.

I just have a real hard time seeing the sense in the business model for this place.


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## drjeff (Mar 5, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> I could see doing this on some killer peak out west where it's sunny and they get amazing snow (most winters, anyway), but in New England it just seems like a sub par experience for the expense.  I can't imagine wanting to spend the week at Haystack when for the $75k I could have a timeshare condo just about anywhere, and that $5k a year could fly my family out there first class.  And a lot of places are selling VIP type tickets that get them to the front of the line so that pretty much takes the crowds out of the equation.  Sure, a private mountain won't get tracked out nearly as quickly, but I'm guessing most of the people doing this aren't really the type of skiers that see that as important.  I'll bet most are intermediates who ski a few days per year and stick mostly to groomers.
> 
> I just have a real hard time seeing the sense in the business model for this place.




I fully get that the concept of the Hermitage doesn't make much sense to so many here on AZ.  Frankly, I will admit that when it was 1st announced and started to sell memberships based on a "grand vision" of Jim Barnes, the owner, I was skeptical, and at the same time due to my proximity as a 2nd home owner up in the area, also a bit interested too.

When my wife and I took the tour there last January (the condo complex where I have my place up there was invited to have owners come over and experience the Hermitage Club for a free day), the terrain wasn't enough to keep me, or my wife interested for what is usually the 40 days a year that we ski just at Mount Snow, and for many Hermitage members this holds true as many also have passes at Mount Snow, and not just because the Hermitage's main operations schedule, except for Holiday weeks is Friday through Sunday.  The terrain skis as basically 4 separate 500 vertical foot so so peaks with connecting flats in between.  It reminds me more of a couple of old style small, classical New England ski areas linked together as opposed to one big area.

The members that I know, all have kids in various kids programs (some in Mount Snow's programs and some in the Hermitage's own programs).  The race program that the Hermitage has developed so far has some talented coaches and is getting some good results from its athletes.  Many of the kids who race, have at least one parent who has a racing background, and the Hermitage has established a strong, essentially every weekend Nastar style adult members race league, which I don't think too many ski areas, if any at all in the Northeast East have a similar commitment to regular weekend adult racing.  There are some members who really can ski, and there are plenty that are terminal intermediates.  The thing is though, and this is where the concept of spending the kind of $$ that is involved for a few trips out West a year, is flawed, is most of the dedicated members, who primarily live along the I-95 corridor from Northern Jersey on up to the Boston area, are up there every weekend, with their kids, so the 2.5 to 4.5 hr drive they make every weekend vs hoping on a plane and having a longer flight a few times a year just doesn't work for them, its about being together and skiing with their family essentially every weekend.

Then there's the whole "club" atmosphere" which is something that I never fully in a sense appreciated until I became a Mount Snow weekend regular years ago.  You end up meeting a host of new friends, many with the same passion for the sport, who don't think that it's "crazy" to make the drive every Friday/Sunday for 20 odd weeks a year, often in bad weather to sometimes ski in the rain or stupid cold temperatures.  It's nice to see the same faces on the lifts or having a drink at the bar after talking about your day on the hill, or even standing around at the bottom of a race course waiting for your kids (who are often friends too) to come down the hill.  This social atmosphere is a BIG part of what many of the members who I know, enjoy, and has also been used as a big recruiting tool towards new members.  Add in the year round activities up there that the club offers, and it becomes a concept that works for a number of people.

I'm actually going to get to ski at The Hermitage for the 1st time since their club house opened, this coming Sunday when my daughter has a race there.  I'm looking forward to seeing how it's evolved in the year since I last skied there.  Like I said, it's not everyone's taste, but for some, it's a very appealing, worthwhile opportunity.  My wife and I do sometimes question ourselves, knowing now what the Hermitage has evolved into, if we should of joined way back when when the initiation fee was less than 10 grand.  Right now though, it's just not worth it to us,  but my hunch is that it will be worth it to about 150 more families over the next year or so, at which point they will have reached their maximum occupancy of memberships


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## Domeskier (Mar 5, 2015)

C-Rex said:


> I could see doing this on some killer peak out west where it's sunny and they get amazing snow (most winters, anyway), but in New England it just seems like a sub par experience for the expense.



If they converted Sundown into a private club, I'd be first in line with my security deposit.


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 5, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> If they converted Sundown into a private club, I'd be first in line with my security deposit.



Have you slayed satin yet?


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## Domeskier (Mar 5, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Have you slayed satin yet?


 
:hangs head in shame:  no, but soon - very soon...


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## skiNEwhere (Mar 5, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> :hangs head in shame:  no, but soon - very soon...



You disgust me. Go haze yourself


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## Domeskier (Mar 5, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> You disgust me. Go haze yourself



I feel the same way.    I'm thinking twenty lashes with pole strap might be appropriate...


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## drjeff (Apr 24, 2015)

And the ACT 250 approval has been granted for their heated 6 pack bubble

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=257


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## ironhippy (Apr 24, 2015)

A slopeside hotel, would that just be for members and their guests?


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## Puck it (Apr 24, 2015)

Six pack is overkill for a private club!


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## gmcunni (Apr 24, 2015)

i read you can get a 1 year trial membership for $15,000.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> i read you can get a 1 year trial membership for $15,000.



Am I the only one who sees this as rather insane?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 24, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Six pack is overkill for a private club!



Who's going to be there to ride it?!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## gmcunni (Apr 24, 2015)

i don't think it is insane but it certainly caters to a specific market, one i'm not part of.



> The Hermitage Club is the only private Ski Club on the East Coast.
> Our 1,400-acre spectacular private mountain enclave is nestled
> in the tranquil mountains of Southern Vermont’s Deerfield Valley.
> 
> ...


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## yeggous (Apr 24, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> i don't think it is insane but it certainly caters to a specific market, one i'm not part of.



I can understand their market after having seen the lines at Okemo and Stratton on my rare visits. I do not understand how people can tolerate the prices and crowds of Southern Vermont. I can understand someone from the mid-Atlantic paying a higher price for an escape from the crowds. I don't see real New Englanders paying that kind of money when you could just drive elsewhere and escape the lifelines.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 24, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Six pack is overkill for a private club!



Agreed.  If I were a member, I'd rather see a HSQ and the cost savings invested elsewhere.


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## gmcunni (Apr 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed.  If I were a member, I'd rather see a HSQ and the cost savings invested elsewhere.



i think it is a matter of " the guys up the street have this stuff, why don't we"

driving a toyota costs less than the lexus but i'm guessing there are more lexus in the parking lot @ HC than toyota


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## vonski (Apr 24, 2015)

And I want to sit and ride with my other friends in comfort on that lift.    I hope Magic can make a deal for the chairs off that triple  could use them on the Black lift maybe!!!???


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## Domeskier (Apr 24, 2015)

Bubble lift sounds like a poor man's gondola.  I guess those lawsuits from the state are starting to take their toll!


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## drjeff (Apr 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed.  If I were a member, I'd rather see a HSQ and the cost savings invested elsewhere.



You have to remember that many of their members like, and are very used to the Bluebird at Mount Snow and want the same type of lift for their comfort at The Hermitage


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## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2015)

drjeff said:


> You have to remember that many of their members like, and are very used to the Bluebird at Mount Snow and want the same type of lift for their comfort at The Hermitage



Not gonna lie, I love the feel of the chairs for the Bluebird at Mount Snow.  Nice padding all around, no holes for anything to fall through behind you.  Solid back-piece for your back and ass to sit up against.  It is a nice chair.  The lines suck and I'm not a huge fan of being 6-wide, but other than that the lift is awesome.


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## mriceyman (Apr 24, 2015)

1.4 mil for a 2 br condo.. Not too shabby


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 24, 2015)

drjeff said:


> many of their members like, and are very used to the Bluebird at Mount Snow and want the same type of lift for their comfort at The Hermitage



Just wondering, where this "statistic" is coming from?


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## drjeff (Apr 24, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Just wondering, where this "statistic" is coming from?



No concrete data, just what I hear from a few friends that I have that are members and what they say that they've heard from the ownership there.  They realize what many members, who just by proximity sake have been, and in many cases still are Mount Snow skiers, got used to with the Bluebird, and they (the Hermitage) want to make sure that their members are happy - so my info is literally from multiple members mouths


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 24, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed.  If I were a member, I'd rather see a HSQ and the cost savings invested elsewhere.



If you were a member, I doubt you'd care about the price difference between a Quad bubble and a Hex bubble.



mriceyman said:


> 1.4 mil for a 2 br condo.. Not too shabby



Good lord, that's like Manhattan pricing!


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## slatham (Apr 24, 2015)

$15k insane, unless you can be there all the time and have lots of friends who will pay you for your 100 comp tickets and 10 rounds of golf. 

Assume $75 lift tickets. 100 free passes =$7,500.
Assume $50 round of golf. 10 free passes = $500

So now you're at $7k for a winter of skiing, plus the other benefits. So all you need to do to break even at $75 ticket price is ski 93 days!

Or course I will bet good money that none of the membership skis 93 days.

Me, I'm buying passes to Bromley and Magic again and keeping the nearly $14k for other purposes!


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## Newpylong (Apr 24, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Six pack is overkill for a private club!



If they have the money, what's the point of not going for a 6 and letting the whole family sit on the same chair? Price increment from 4 to 6 is couch change for these people.

Did they really need quads to get from the Inn and Lower mountains to the main mountain? No.

Throw normal resort economics out the window with the Hermitage.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2015)

slatham said:


> $15k insane, unless you can be there all the time and have lots of friends who will pay you for your 100 comp tickets and 10 rounds of golf.
> 
> Assume $75 lift tickets. 100 free passes =$7,500.
> Assume $50 round of golf. 10 free passes = $500
> ...



I don't disagree, but we can't think like this when it comes to operations like this.  The Hermitage Club is for the 1%'ers who most likely could not care less about the cost of the membership.  They just want to be able to take the family up to the mountain and not be bothered by anyone who is not a 1%'er like they are.  If they were really worried about the price and other things, they certainly wouldn't be signing up for a club like this at an inferior mountain.

Like others have said, it isn't about the economics of it or the terrain you are skiing.  It is basically an exclusive social club.


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## Edd (Apr 24, 2015)

Domeskier said:


> Bubble lift sounds like a poor man's gondola.  I guess those lawsuits from the state are starting to take their toll!



You're joking but I always like to point out:  bubble chair > gondola.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2015)

Edd said:


> You're joking but I always like to point out:  bubble chair > gondola.



How so?  Why?  Gondolas are nice and fully enclosed.  A bubble chair you still have some elements and cold you are exposed to while a gondola is enclosed, so no wind and you can take off your skis/board and relax.


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## Domeskier (Apr 24, 2015)

Edd said:


> You're joking but I always like to point out:  bubble chair > gondola.



I would ordinarily agree, but I imagine a gondola at a luxury ski club would have a well stocked fridge, reclining seats, climate control, an entertainment system and concierges to remove and put on your skis for you when you get on and off.


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## jaytrem (Apr 24, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> How so?  Why?  Gondolas are nice and fully enclosed.  A bubble chair you still have some elements and cold you are exposed to while a gondola is enclosed, so no wind and you can take off your skis/board and relax.



Gondolas have their place, but I don't think this would be it.  The hassle of taking skis/snowboard off every time for a 5 minute ride = bah!!!  Now if you got a lift that's double the length and is also needed for foot traffic, then a gondola makes sense.  If the lift is primarily for skiing I'd go with the bubble every time.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2015)

jaytrem said:


> Gondolas have their place, but I don't think this would be it.  The hassle of taking skis/snowboard off every time for a 5 minute ride = bah!!!  Now if you got a lift that's double the length and is also needed for foot traffic, then a gondola makes sense.  If the lift is primarily for skiing I'd go with the bubble every time.



Again, these aren't people worried about getting in as many runs as they can and ripping up the best terrain they can.  It is about a social experience and being able to be alone with their families and other rich people.

Gondola is much more aligned with that.  Much more fancy and relaxing compared to a chair lift.


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## Newpylong (Apr 24, 2015)

I disagree. A gondola is a very poor fit for Haystack, the socializing goes on in that massive clubhouse at the bottom, no a 4 minute ride that you have to take skis off for.


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## Edd (Apr 24, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> How so?  Why?  Gondolas are nice and fully enclosed.  A bubble chair you still have some elements and cold you are exposed to while a gondola is enclosed, so no wind and you can take off your skis/board and relax.



Gondolas aren't nice. They're often gross, breath-filled chambers. Taking your skis off every run blows. Bubble chairs provide a good amount of protection. It's a perfect compromise in my book.

Edit: I'd really like to try the Peak to Peak at Whistler, though.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 24, 2015)

I'll never go and don't really care.  But, a gondola is or can be more luxurious than a chair lift.  I'm picturing the Maybach of gondolas, haha.


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## Jully (Apr 24, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> Again, these aren't people worried about getting in as many runs as they can and ripping up the best terrain they can.  It is about a social experience and being able to be alone with their families and other rich people.



Not that I am in any way supporting this kind of ridiculous expense. Even if I had unlimited money I wouldn't spend it on a membership like this. However, I don't think it's necessarily fair to assume that the motivation for these people to join the club is a malevolent one. There are certainly going to be some snobs there for sure, but I think for the majority of the people buying memberships there it's different than trying to avoid other people who are not members of the 1%.

There are different motivations to join a fancy country club than simply to turn your nose at others who can't afford it. From what I've heard many of the members ski elsewhere in the area and are even pretty avid skiers.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 25, 2015)

Jully said:


> Not that I am in any way supporting this kind of ridiculous expense. Even if I had unlimited money I wouldn't spend it on a membership like this. However, I don't think it's necessarily fair to assume that the motivation for these people to join the club is a malevolent one. There are certainly going to be some snobs there for sure, but I think for the majority of the people buying memberships there it's different than trying to avoid other people who are not members of the 1%.
> 
> There are different motivations to join a fancy country club than simply to turn your nose at others who can't afford it. From what I've heard many of the members ski elsewhere in the area and are even pretty avid skiers.



Yeah, that was a bit harsh, I'm sure they're not all that way.  I have no problem with people doing stuff like this either way.  It's their money to spend on what they want and who they want to spend it with.  It is a genius idea by the people who came up with the Hermitage Club, really.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 28, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> they certainly wouldn't be signing up for a club like this at an inferior mountain.



Just what exactly makes this an inferior mountain?


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## Jcb890 (Apr 28, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Just what exactly makes this an inferior mountain?



I don't want to offend anyone or get in a pissing match about anything.  It is a fine mountain and the founders had a great idea to start the Hermitage Club.


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## Newpylong (Apr 28, 2015)

Any mountain with snow is superior in my book 

I had lots of fun at the "Stack in the early 90s when you could ski there or Snow on the same ticket.


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## Jcb890 (Apr 28, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Any mountain with snow is superior in my book
> 
> I had lots of fun at the "Stack in the early 90s when you could ski there or Snow on the same ticket.


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## abc (Apr 28, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> I'll never go and don't really care.  But, a gondola *is or can be* more luxurious than a chair lift.  I'm picturing the Maybach of gondolas, haha.


Show me a gondola in existance that are in any way "luxurious"? I certainly don't know of any. 

It "can be" more luxurious but for the most part it never "is" any more luxurious than a typical chair!

While I've never skied in any private club mountains but I've skied in quite a few places in US and Europe where the rich and famous go skiing. None of those mountains I've been to have gondola that are anything but basic transports. So I'm extremely skeptical of Hermitage club would be any different. That is, if it even gets off the ground!


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## Jcb890 (Apr 28, 2015)

abc said:


> Show me a gondola in existance that are in any way "luxurious"? I certainly don't know of any.
> 
> It "can be" more luxurious but for the most part it never "is" any more luxurious than a typical chair!
> 
> While I've never skied in any private club mountains but I've skied in quite a few places in US and Europe where the rich and famous go skiing. None of those mountains I've been to have gondola that are anything but basic transports. So I'm extremely skeptical of Hermitage club would be any different. That is, if it even gets off the ground!



Fair enough.


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## Newpylong (Apr 29, 2015)

abc said:


> Show me a gondola in existance that are in any way "luxurious"? I certainly don't know of any.
> 
> It "can be" more luxurious but for the most part it never "is" any more luxurious than a typical chair!
> 
> While I've never skied in any private club mountains but I've skied in quite a few places in US and Europe where the rich and famous go skiing. None of those mountains I've been to have gondola that are anything but basic transports. So I'm extremely skeptical of Hermitage club would be any different. That is, if it even gets off the ground!



It's long past gotten off the ground...


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## machski (Apr 29, 2015)

jaytrem said:


> Gondolas have their place, but I don't think this would be it.  The hassle of taking skis/snowboard off every time for a 5 minute ride = bah!!!  Now if you got a lift that's double the length and is also needed for foot traffic, then a gondola makes sense.  If the lift is primarily for skiing I'd go with the bubble every time.



+100000


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## machski (Apr 29, 2015)

BTW, the most exclusive ski club, yellowstone, does not have a gondolla anywhere on their massive mountain.  All HSQ's for the most part.


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## drjeff (Apr 29, 2015)

abc said:


> Show me a gondola in existance that are in any way "luxurious"? I certainly don't know of any.
> 
> It "can be" more luxurious but for the most part it never "is" any more luxurious than a typical chair!
> 
> While I've never skied in any private club mountains but I've skied in quite a few places in US and Europe where the rich and famous go skiing. None of those mountains I've been to have gondola that are anything but basic transports. So I'm extremely skeptical of Hermitage club would be any different. That is, if it even gets off the ground!



700 memberships sold now. They just sold about 16 million of property in 1 day, about a month ago the day they they put units in their about to break ground and scheduled for occupancy for the '16-'17 ski season,  base area hotel up for sale (24 units sold during the kick off event for members they had) - As I have heard from members, they have passed the "critical mass" point of memberships sold so that the dues income will cover annual estimated operating expenses. They are expecting to reach their "maximum capacity" membership point in the next 12-18 months.  It is off the ground for sure.


Agree with the gondola thing - the only possible exception that I've experienced is the Jordanelle Gondola at Deer Valley where they took a cabin designed for 6 people and put only 4, very comfortable, leather seats in it, along with heat - not your typical plastic seat gondola there


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## Angus (Apr 29, 2015)

the Jordanelle Gondola doesn't really service any ski terrain but just the private homes that have been developed along that side of resort. drjeff - how much of the terrain do you think is covered (or planned to be) by snowmaking and is there enough H2O to support near full coverage in a lean snow year?


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## jaytrem (Apr 29, 2015)

machski said:


> BTW, the most exclusive ski club, yellowstone, does not have a gondolla anywhere on their massive mountain. All HSQ's for the most part.



Yeah, and most of the lifts are 1/2 bubble 1/2 open chair.  The best of both worlds.  Big Sky also has one like that now that they aquired Spanish Peaks.  The best of both worlds.


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## gmcunni (Apr 29, 2015)

a comfy bubble with no lift line for a relatively short ride would be my preference, if i were well off enough to belong to such a place.


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## Domeskier (Apr 29, 2015)

abc said:


> Show me a gondola in existance that are in any way "luxurious"? I certainly don't know of any.



Here is one:


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## Jcb890 (Apr 29, 2015)

drjeff said:


> 700 memberships sold now. They just sold about 16 million of property in 1 day, about a month ago the day they they put units in their about to break ground and scheduled for occupancy for the '16-'17 ski season,  base area hotel up for sale (24 units sold during the kick off event for members they had) - As I have heard from members, they have passed the "critical mass" point of memberships sold so that the dues income will cover annual estimated operating expenses. They are expecting to reach their "maximum capacity" membership point in the next 12-18 months.  It is off the ground for sure.
> 
> 
> Agree with the gondola thing - the only possible exception that I've experienced is the Jordanelle Gondola at Deer Valley where they took a cabin designed for 6 people and put only 4, very comfortable, leather seats in it, along with heat - not your typical plastic seat gondola there





Domeskier said:


> Here is one:



Those are what I was referring to with a classy/luxurious gondola.  With the money The Heritage Club is charging (and getting), one would think they could afford to make a pretty comfortable and luxurious gondola setup.  Though, like others have mentioned, for the distance and time it is traveling, a gondola may not be the best idea and/or worth it.


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## Domeskier (Apr 29, 2015)

Jcb890 said:


> Those are what I was referring to with a classy/luxurious gondola.  With the money The Heritage Club is charging (and getting), one would think they could afford to make a pretty comfortable and luxurious gondola setup.  Though, like others have mentioned, for the distance and time it is traveling, a gondola may not be the best idea and/or worth it.



the sauna gondola might be pushing it:

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2013/06/worlds-outrageous-gondolas


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## gmcunni (Apr 29, 2015)

plus gondolas (not brand new ones) never hold fat skis with twin tips well.


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## drjeff (Apr 29, 2015)

Angus said:


> the Jordanelle Gondola doesn't really service any ski terrain but just the private homes that have been developed along that side of resort. drjeff - how much of the terrain do you think is covered (or planned to be) by snowmaking and is there enough H2O to support near full coverage in a lean snow year?



I have to disagree a bit here.  Sure there are many, high priced mansions in the Deercrest section of Deer Valley where the Jordanelle Gondola is one of the 2 main lifts on that peak, but to say that it doesn't really service any ski terrain isn't correct, as there's some solid cruisers over there as well as some decent pitched bump runs.  And that's just the terrain that the public gets to ski, and doesn't even include the private ski to/from trails that service houses over there that aren't on a major, public ski run.

Water won't be an issue for the Hermitage Club, right now they can cover about 90% of their terrain with snowmaking, and they did a solid job from what I experienced the day my daughter had a race there in March.  And in the '16-'17 season when Mount Snow gets their snowmaking reservoir on line, the Hermitage will have about double the water that they have now available as under a current agreement that Mount Snow/Peak Resorts/the old ASC made when the sold off the Haystack, they (Mount Snow) has access to now half, and at one point when Haystack wasn't operating, pre Hermitage days, about 90% of the water in the Hermitage's snowmaking pond which has an aggressive refill rate - Mount Snow used that water essentially just for all the terrain features for the parks at Carinthia, so we're not talking about a small amount of water here that the Hermitage will soon have access too - Water is a non issue for the Hermitage and their snowmaking capabilities


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## Angus (Apr 29, 2015)

Really haven't read this thread but it got me thinking about this thing. Haystack has quicker access to home - I'm assuming this is a fairfield - westchester county/NYC type of clientele. Looks like there is a golf club. You can let your kids loose - don't need to worry, work a bit on Saturday/Sunday, take a few runs, nice shared amenities, et cetera.

I looked at the website at the membership fees - lot of $$ for the avg. joe but not crazy (comp. to higher end CC). Not sure about real estate but I can see there is definitely a segment of the ski market that would go for this. I don't ski a lot in soVT but I'm always amazed by NY plated cars - hi-end SUVs - tearing down 91 on Sunday nite trying to get home...always think it would grow old.


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## Talisman (Apr 29, 2015)

jaytrem said:


> Yeah, and most of the lifts are 1/2 bubble 1/2 open chair.  The best of both worlds.  Big Sky also has one like that now that they aquired Spanish Peaks.  The best of both worlds.



Oddly the Yellowstone Club also has a Poma, so not all the lifts are deluxe.  The many time I have skied at Big Sky, I have only seen people actually skiing at the YC a few times.


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## steamboat1 (Apr 29, 2015)

Not sure if this ever got off the ground this season. The former Round Top, Bear Creek & now Plymouth Notch. Certainly seems more affordable than the Heritage Club.

http://www.skithenotch.com/


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## xwhaler (Apr 29, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Not sure if this ever got off the ground this season. The former Round Top, Bear Creek & now Plymouth Notch. Certainly seems more affordable than the Heritage Club.
> 
> http://www.skithenotch.com/



I saw lifts spinning and people skiing there the couple times I drove up from Ludlow to Pico this past season.


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## machski (Apr 29, 2015)

Talisman said:


> Oddly the Yellowstone Club also has a Poma, so not all the lifts are deluxe.  The many time I have skied at Big Sky, I have only seen people actually skiing at the YC a few times.



Yes, Yellowstone club has several surface lifts and fixed grip chairs that connect it to Big Sky.  I have never seen these run (I assume owners may have a key to run when needed similar to Loon's south peak double from the river).  I have seen the lifts on Yellowstone proper running with very few skiers on that huge terrain.  Must be nice.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 29, 2015)

Loon's South Peak Double is key operated?  No kidding!  I did not know that. I would figure there'd be some liability issues in allowing that.


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## gmcunni (Apr 29, 2015)

wonder what color the Hermitage bubble will be?  green?

i prefer the Mt Snow blue.


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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> wonder what color the Hermitage bubble will be?  green?
> 
> i prefer the Mt Snow blue.



It's supposed to be orange, with heated seats, but made by Dopplmayr, not Leitner-Poma. L-P made both the Bluebird and Sunburst 6, Dopplmayr made the orange bubble quad at The Canyons in Utah

I'm partial to the blue colored bubbles too


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## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2015)

why don't they do clear?  The colors just seem so fake/plastic/unnatural.  Yes, I recognize that a ski area with lifts, RE and mountainsides carved up is about as unnatural as it gets, it's just to me the colors make it look like a Disney ride, not a chair.


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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> why don't they do clear?  The colors just seem so fake/plastic/unnatural.  Yes, I recognize that a ski area with lifts, RE and mountainsides carved up is about as unnatural as it gets, it's just to me the colors make it look like a Disney ride, not a chair.




My favorite color bubble that I sat in, was 4 years ago when Mount Snow announced they were going to put the Bluebird in, they had a single "demo bubble" chair, mounted on a wheeled assembly, that was in the base area.  It had a smoke gray tint to it.  Just enough tint so that folks like myself with blue eyes who are sensitive to bright light had some tint, but not too much to make it look too out of place.

As much as I enjoy the fun of getting chair #50 on the Bluebird (the golden bubble), my eyes, especially if it's on a sunny day, appreciate the greater degree of tint that the blue bubbles give.  Same thing with both the Orange Bubble at The Canyons and Sunburst 6, the orange is a bit bright for my eyes comfort, especially when it's sunny out


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## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2015)

First world problems :lol:


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## drjeff (Apr 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> First world problems :lol:



Yup!!

Because of all these colored bubbles now we actually have to think about how the color of our goggle lenses will interact with the color of the bubble, rather than just will the color of our goggle lens make us look cool! :lol:

First world problems indeed! )


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## xwhaler (Apr 30, 2015)

I don't like the orange tint on the S6 at Okemo....goggles up or goggles down it wasn't pleasant on the eyes.
I rode a bubble lift at Whistler that I believe had a smoke grey tint that was much better.


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## catsup948 (Apr 30, 2015)

I didn't put down the bubble at Okemo on Friday.  Bubbles scare me!


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## dlague (Apr 30, 2015)

catsup948 said:


> I didn't put down the bubble at Okemo on Friday.  Bubbles scare me!



Hard to breathe.  Just kidding but it is a little strange.


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## Newpylong (May 1, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> I don't like the orange tint on the S6 at Okemo....goggles up or goggles down it wasn't pleasant on the eyes.
> I rode a bubble lift at Whistler that I believe had a smoke grey tint that was much better.



It was a terrible choice in color. I believe a few people in here forecasted what you described when they announced the lift.


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## drjeff (May 9, 2015)

http://m.poststar.com/news/local/sk...5360-afe3-3dbf8ba194b6.html?mobile_touch=true

The triple they're taking out to build the 6 pack will be going to West Mountain in NY, not too far from Lake George and eventually be used to replace their old summit double and their younger, but still old Northwest Triple.  West Mountain was the 2nd ski area I ever skied at, and one of my home ski areas as I was growing up back in the 80's.  For various reasons, I really like this deal!


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## steamboat1 (May 9, 2015)

drjeff said:


> http://m.poststar.com/news/local/sk...5360-afe3-3dbf8ba194b6.html?mobile_touch=true
> 
> The triple they're taking out to build the 6 pack will be going to West Mountain in NY, not too far from Lake George and eventually be used to replace their old summit double and their younger, but still old Northwest Triple.  West Mountain was the 2nd ski area I ever skied at, and one of my home ski areas as I was growing up back in the 80's.  For various reasons, I really like this deal!


Glad to hear. Didn't West Mountain declare bankruptcy just a couple of years ago? I don't understand why they have a hard time making it. It's located less than an hour from Albany & has pretty good terrain. You can also buy a lift ticket for only a couple of hours, I think they sell them for either 2 or 4 hours. Plus they have night skiing. We sometimes used to ski there on our way home from VT. to shorten the trip. I did stop there this winter but not to ski. I collect ski area pins & didn't have West Mountain. Still don't because they don't sell them.


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## thetrailboss (May 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Glad to hear. Didn't West Mountain declare bankruptcy just a couple of years ago? I don't understand why they have a hard time making it. It's located less than an hour from Albany & has pretty good terrain. You can also buy a lift ticket for only a couple of hours, I think they sell them for either 2 or 4 hours. Plus they have night skiing. We sometimes used to ski there on our way home from VT. to shorten the trip. I did stop there this winter but not to ski. I collect ski area pins & didn't have West Mountain. Still don't because they don't sell them.



I think the last regime went bankrupt; this is a new owner iirc.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## drjeff (May 9, 2015)

Yup, new owner as of about a year ago - a local businessman with essentially life long ties to the area (I actually used to race against him in highschool back in the late 80's)

West has always had tons of potential, but suffered from its slow lifts and the simple fact that on weekends you have options like Gore, and central VT ski areas within an hour or so drive to tempt people to not get off the Northway at exit 18 and go for larger resorts elsewhere


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## steamboat1 (May 9, 2015)

TB you posted this article back in 2013.

*WEST MOUNTAIN GETS NEW OPERATOR WITH BIG PLANS*


*PUBLISH DATE*

08/19/2013

SAM Magazine--Queensbury, N.Y., August 19, 2013--As of August 15, West Mountain, N.Y., will be operated by Apex Capital and will open this winter. According to the Post Star, the group parted ways with the former ski area owner, Mike Barbone, but will now have full control over the resort. Barbone filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in June and, rather than seeing the bankruptcy process through, Apex Capital initiated a reorganization plan. Apex has so far invested more than $1 million to pay off back taxes and mortgages.

Over the past few years, Apex Capital has purchased 1,400 acres around the resort with the intent to develop. The entire project, called the Mont Luzerne development, will eventually encompass 2,400 acres, where a ski-in/ski-out community is envisioned. A key parcel, 500 acres of land that connected the mountain with the proposed development area, was in foreclosure until Apex Capital paid it off on July 31.

Future plans at the resort call for a new chairlift, minor renovations and a zipline for year-round business.


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## drjeff (May 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> TB you posted this article back in 2013.
> 
> *WEST MOUNTAIN GETS NEW OPERATOR WITH BIG PLANS*
> 
> ...



If i'm not mistaken, the current owner is one that came in after APEX capital, and bought West about a year ago


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## thetrailboss (May 9, 2015)

drjeff said:


> If i'm not mistaken, the current owner is one that came in after APEX capital, and bought West about a year ago



So there have been two since 2013?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## drjeff (May 9, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> So there have been two since 2013?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Pretty sure that's the case 

I'm just wondering if the super comfy, custom embroidered seat pads the Hermitage had made for the Barnstormer triple a few years ago are a part of the deal?!? We're talking extra comfy couch like ride on them?!


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## steamboat1 (May 10, 2015)

Spencer Montgomery is Apex Capital.


http://www.snocountry.com/en/news/e...-mountain-from-industrial-pit-to-ski-area-ceo


http://poststar.com/news/local/apex...cle_25c49246-0d00-11e3-a13e-001a4bcf887a.html


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## drjeff (May 10, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Spencer Montgomery is Apex Capital.
> 
> 
> http://www.snocountry.com/en/news/e...-mountain-from-industrial-pit-to-ski-area-ceo
> ...



I now get where my "confusion" came from - Apex initially bought West a few seasons ago, and hired a company to run the ski area for them. Then about a year later, they stopped using the company to operate the ski area for them and started doing it themselves, at which point it coincides with what I thought was Spencer, himself, taking over as the GM - Same owners, just now a much more of a hands on owner than before


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