# KILLINGTON/PICO: AZ Challenge 2007 Response/Feedback Thread



## Greg (Oct 17, 2007)

Chris's responses are in:

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2007/response.htm?resort=killington


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## tcharron (Oct 17, 2007)

Overall, decent responses.

But I don't personally believe providing less services on off days will lead to what they expect.  I believe the off day small crowd will simply become even smaller, causing a greater reduction in income on those days, causing a greater reduction in services provided, causing a great reduc............


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 17, 2007)

tcharron said:


> Overall, decent responses.
> 
> But I don't personally believe providing less services on off days will lead to what they expect.  I believe the off day small crowd will simply become even smaller, causing a greater reduction in income on those days, causing a greater reduction in services provided, causing a great reduc............



Agreed.  I think that some of these actions lead to a viscious circle as you described.  

Overall:  meh.


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## millerm277 (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree with tcharron, and as for the other answers, good to see that they probably aren't going to groom everything, and that they understand the issues with trail and lift design. Other than that, there isn't much there, and I don't like their secrecy about everything they do.


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## skiadikt (Oct 17, 2007)

"The length of the season and the operating schedules for lodges are not drivers of our brand position or financial success."

he just doesn't have an understanding of what killington is all about. i think he's underestimating the importance of the longer season to many of us being at k in the first place. that WAS a huge part of the brand in the 80's & 90's. whether they can reinvent the brand remains to be seen.

as for the lodges, while i don't like the message closing them sends, i do think the skyeship 1 & to a lesser extent, pico should be open 7 days. i think great eastern, especially below snowshed crossover is arguably one of the better beginner/family runs in the east, much better than great northern, and is an essential killington run.


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## Rogman (Oct 17, 2007)

Some good, some bad.

I thought his answer on grooming was good. Given his background, I'd expect nothing less. His remark that the length of the season is "not a driver of our brand position" is unfortunate. Driving your car off a cliff is also unfortunate. Sounds like they plan on doing more "infrastructure" improvements in the short term, lift changes will be longer term. If infrastructure means fixing the snowmaking, I'm all for it. If it's fixing the bathrooms, well, I'm not interested. The short term goal, "right sizing" Killington for the existing market conditions is also "unfortunate".  First of all, that's a term thats fallen into disfavor because everyone knows what _that_ means, and I agree with others that without positive changes, Killington will continue to lose market share and continue its death spiral into mediocrity.

On the plus side, I think he's clearly trying, but the decision making process needs work. They clearly need to get buy in at all levels for the changes they are contemplating. I think he badly underestimated the passion of Killington skiers for "their" resort, and as a result created an "unfortunate" PR fiasco.


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## Newpylong (Oct 17, 2007)

Total misunderstanding of how Killington operates.


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## millerm277 (Oct 17, 2007)

skiadikt said:


> i think he's underestimating the importance of the longer season to many of us being at k in the first place. that WAS a huge part of the brand in the 80's & 90's. whether they can reinvent the brand remains to be seen.



Agreed, and interestingly enough...it seems that same period of time was when Killington was most successful and probably, most profitable......


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## Greg (Oct 17, 2007)

I thought the responses were complete and well written and Mr. Nyberg gets big props from me for responding in a timely fashion. In fact, I think he was one of, if not _the _quickest respondent this year. He obviously took this seriously. Finally, I'm very content with the response to my question regarding OL and the grooming policy. The response to boston_e's question regarding all the crossovers was very encouraging as well.

As far as how their overall "right sizing" approach will shake out remains to be seen. The "*length of the season* and the operating schedules for lodges are *not drivers of our brand position or financial success*" comment is probably pretty disturbing to most though. That seems to be the single biggest complaint that tangibly affects the most number of Killington skiers. However, the "over time the Killington brand position may change" comments leaves them a bit of an out here. Hopefully, they'll get things in order and we'll see a return to an extended season in years to come. It certainly is going to be interesting to watch all this unfold.


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## bobbutts (Oct 17, 2007)

K-Mart has a real K-mart style manager now.. 
and what newpy said


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## RIDEr (Oct 17, 2007)

I don't like the majority of his answers, but certainly respect him answering them on both AZ and KZ.  The true result will come during the season and then we'll see how their decisions changed the nature of the mountain.


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## Highway Star (Oct 17, 2007)

Weaksauce.......he did a really good job at telling us nothing.

Right sizing?  Long season isn't part of the brand???  

Whew.....good luck Chris, good luck.


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## boston_e (Oct 17, 2007)

I liked to hear that they have relocated / new / revised lifts and trail merging in the works, and I liked what he had to say about the grooming / bump situation.

Overall about what I expected for answers, but I at least got the feel as if they do want and plan to make the mountain better long term.

As far as the improvements for this year, not much on that list is getting me super excited.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 17, 2007)

Newpylong said:


> Total misunderstanding of how Killington operates.




I would tend to agree, though I would phrase it 'Total misundertanding of Killington's soul'


I'm no snowman and am not privy to the financials of Killington's past, but I would think the proper approach would be to bring Killington back up to a near million skier visit per year resort.  It sounds to me like they'd rather make X million dollars servicing 600K skiers per year, than the same X million dollars per year servicing 1 mil.

I think due to how big it is, it's too late for that mentality.  Killingonton is basically the Manhattan of ski resorts. What people hate about it - the crowding, the attitude etc, is also what makes it what it is and what people who go there also love about it.  It does have a certain energy to it, much like Manhattan.  Beacuse it is SO large and SO spread out, I don't think they can tighten up their operation to be a more country club type atmosphere serving the rich such as Stratton.  

Killington was built to be the beast of the east.  I really don't see how it can re-invent itself and be as succesful as it once was in a more toned down version.  

One question I didn't ask, but looking back, I wish I did was concerning staffing.  They say they want to open up full operations on weekends and holidays.  That will take a TON of employees to pull off, as it always has.  By reducing their services so DRASTICALLY midweek, how the heck do they think they are going to retain employees?

I think what's lost on POWD'R is the concept of the lost leaders in the ski business.  Running K1 midweek, keeping Pico open midweek, having the longest season - those are all lost leaders that enhance the brand and improve peak season revenues at Killington.  I can understand cutting corners to save money to re-invest in the resort, but I really think they are taking it to the Extreme.

I guess we'll all find out if there model for success works in a few years.


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## millerm277 (Oct 17, 2007)

deadheadskier said:


> One question I didn't ask, but looking back, I wish I did was concerning staffing.  They say they want to open up full operations on weekends and holidays.  That will take a TON of employees to pull off, as it always has.  By reducing their services so DRASTICALLY midweek, how the heck do they think they are going to retain employees?



Well, they fired a large number of the full time employees a few months ago, and to my knowledge, a few more have left on their own, and now they probably can't get much cheap labor with the visa thing, so maybe we'll see Nyburg himself out manning the lifts on weekends, because I don't think many locals have any desire to work for them.


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## tree_skier (Oct 18, 2007)

Phew I am sure glad that #3 on his top 5 list is

"More energy and activity weekdays at Snowshed"

That certainly would draw me to return to K-mart as Snowshed is the reason most of us skiers love the place.


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## boston_e (Oct 18, 2007)

Hey I can think of lots of times that I've been out on the slopes thinking "gosh I wish the Snowshed lodge had more energy midweek".


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## nycskier (Oct 18, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> Phew I am sure glad that #3 on his top 5 list is
> 
> "More energy and activity weekdays at Snowshed"
> 
> That certainly would draw me to return to K-mart as Snowshed is the reason most of us skiers love the place.



Totally agree. By moving the main mid-week lodges to Snowshed and closing K-1 lodge you are forcing better skiers to ski down the green crossover trails to get to Snowshed for lunch forcing a 2 chair lift back to the better slopes that you really want to ski. 

Getting to Snowshed (and then back to the main lifts) can be a pain. By not having the K1 lodge open mid week they are making the situation way worse.


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## Angus (Oct 18, 2007)

Haven't skied at Killington in nearly 30 years and don't have much intention to any time soon.

With that said, it seems like the new ownership is wrestling with a classic business problem - determining what components - trails, base lodges, services, lifts - are profitable & integral to a customer experience and what aren't. From what I read, it sounds like a lot of this analysis just wasn't conducted or didn't factor into prior management's decision making policy.

The focus on infrastructure is the right one - build a strong foundation before building the house analogy! The reality is the selling price of Killington ($85mm) which included Pico and a bunch of acreage (am I right here?) indicates it was not wildly profitable enterprise.

To paraphrase someone else on this board - "there ain't no free lunches." It only makes sense that the new ownership is acting in a economically rational manner. Hopefully, it works out well for all the stakeholders - the loyal long time customers, home owners and new ownership.


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## Charlie Schuessler (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm a Killington skier and belieive the mountian is more important than the civil amenities... and look forward to skiing there with existing conditions or upgrades... remember the more you ask for the more you pay...


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## Geoff (Oct 18, 2007)

Personally, the only issue I have is the announced shortened season and the anticipated slow rollout of trail count in November and December.  Until they fix food & beverage, I'm not going to eat their cafeteria food so having the cafeterias closed midweek at KBL and Bear doesn't matter.

If I owned property at Sunrise or on the lower Skyeship, I'd be pissed.  The announced delay of Bear Mountain opening until after Xmas doesn't impact me and I rarely go to Skyeship base unless I have house guests with kids.

They're taking the place somewhat upscale to better attract the kind of customer who will buy those trailside house lots and the condos they plan to throw up in the parking lot.  I'm happy if they see 500-600K skier visits since it makes the place more civilized in Saturdays.  

If they really do close on April 13th, my condo is going on the market and I'm going elsewhere.  I suffer through Killington's midwinter bullshit lousy product to enjoy their spring skiing.  Killington has always filled the parking lots in April and it's pathetic if they don't operate at least a couple lifts until the first weekend of May.  I think they should contract down to the K1 Gondola rather than Superstar.  Maybe have the Canyon Quad, Snowdon triple, and Glades triple on standby weekends. They'd only have to stockpile snow on what are already very high traffic areas that could be resurfaced weekly all season.


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## mountainman (Oct 18, 2007)

*It will always be there.*

Once the leaders in the industry. Now the followers. Sad to see it has come to this. But you know the Killington terrain will always be there no matter who owns it. Powdr has a new toy and bad for us they have to learn how to play with it. Pray for snow and when it comes just go enjoy it. Things will change when demand calls for it. Just like bad winters, we just have new owners. Worse would be both.


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## threecy (Oct 19, 2007)

Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.


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## skiadikt (Oct 19, 2007)

nycskier said:


> Totally agree. By moving the main mid-week lodges to Snowshed and closing K-1 lodge you are forcing better skiers to ski down the green crossover trails to get to Snowshed for lunch forcing a 2 chair lift back to the better slopes that you really want to ski.
> 
> Getting to Snowshed (and then back to the main lifts) can be a pain. By not having the K1 lodge open mid week they are making the situation way worse.



once again it shows how much he doesn't get it and how they're applying a western way of thinking to eastern skiing.


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## skiadikt (Oct 19, 2007)

threecy said:


> Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.



steady stream of income eh ... don't underestimate the importance of the late season skiing thing. THE reason i made the full-time move to k in the late 80's was due to the longer season (i agree early season is done), eventually bringing 4 friends with me, throw 2 teenagers in the mix and you have 7 season passes for nearly 20 years. do the math. i'd call that a pretty steady stream of income. and judging by the outcry, there are many others who feel the same way. it was all part of the killington "brand" and that "brand" is what made killington what it was through the 80's & 90's

as for the skyeship 1, yeah i never ski it except when i have friends w/ kids and then i find it's a perfect trail for familes w/ kids. and if i was a family up for a ski week, i'd be pretty disappointed that one of the best novice/family runs on the mtn was closed.


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## millerm277 (Oct 19, 2007)

threecy said:


> Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.



Without those two, my family and I  would most likely not be at Killington. I would estimate that we typically have spent about $2000-4000 a season at Killington for the last 10 years.


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## tcharron (Oct 19, 2007)

threecy said:


> Someone who won't ski Killington anymore because a) Skyeship Stage 1 is closed 2 days a week and b) Killington won't operate with a few trails in early November and May is probably not someone Killington could rely upon for a steady amount of income from to begin with.



Bear in mind it isn't just the fact that it's now closed 2 days a week.  It's based also on the fact that the initial announcement was *5* days a week, and it was modified.

The facts at the time of the trip aren't what is going to make me say 'Oh hell, let's just go on up'.  The way things have been announced, and the way the customers have been treated is what makes the decision.


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## 2knees (Oct 19, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> Without those two, my family and I  would most likely not be at Killington. I would estimate that we typically have spent about $2000-4000 a season at Killington for the last 10 years.




come on.  You mean to say the sole reason your family chose killington is the fact that you can ski down to rt 4 on a tuesday or wednesday?  Or the fact that you can ski the glades area in mid november?  there are plenty of other early season options, well as early as killington by a couple of days, that offer equal or better terrain.  The october openings were gone before powdr.  

Bottom line,  if they would stay open, even if it was only weekends the last month, till mid may almost all of their other decisions would probably be forgotten once the snow flies.  Forgotten by the majority i should say, obviously the kids pricing is gonna still tick off that particular clientele and condo owners affected by skyeship may not be so forgiving either.


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## Greg (Oct 19, 2007)

2knees said:


> come on.  You mean to say the sole reason your family chose killington is the fact that you can ski down to rt 4 on a tuesday or wednesday?  Or the fact that you can ski the glades area in mid november?  there are plenty of other early season options, well as early as killington by a couple of days, that offer equal or better terrain.  *The october openings were gone before powdr.*
> 
> Bottom line,  *if they would stay open, even if it was only weekends the last month, till mid may almost all of their other decisions would probably be forgotten once the snow flies.*  Forgotten by the majority i should say, obviously the kids pricing is gonna still tick off that particular clientele and condo owners affected by skyeship may not be so forgiving either.



Well said. Killington hasn't been the first to open lately anyway and the mid-November projected is pretty much inline with recent years. I think the April 13 shutdown is the most valid gripe. I think they should push for May, but whatever. If they're aiming for mid-April, there won't be any snowmaking glacier blown on Superstar so unless we have another April 2007, then the middle of the month will probably be it. It is what it is.


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## nycskier (Oct 19, 2007)

I've been a pass holder for the past 3 years and I did not purchase a Killington pass this year. Usually I ski 20 plus days at killington (usually early season before X-mas and late season March and April). Last year I skied 4 of my 22 Killington days AFTER 4/13!

High season I am usually travelling and trying out other resorts out West. One of the main reasons I did not get a Killington pass this year was I got the feeling from management that they will be scaling back on early and late season skiing. They have stated that they will be less likely to blow snow early and late meaning even if they are open conditions might not be as good (unless mother nature intervenes).

While 1 change in particular (like the closing of Skyeship) did not cause me not to get a pass and a ski house at Killington this year, it was the changes in general that lead me to decided to stay away and try other resorts this year. 

I doubt I will do more than a handful of days at Killington this year, which is a shame because I had a ton of fun skiing (and apres skiing) at Killingtont he last 2 winters.

After a year of "exploring" I might go back to Killington or I might find a new home. I just hope the feeling I was getting this off season that the new Killington doesn't want my kind of skier is incorrect and things there don't turn out as badly as some of us fear.


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## threecy (Oct 19, 2007)

It'll be interesting to look back at these threads in 5 years.


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## Beartrap (Oct 19, 2007)

After reading that I doubt I will ski there for a long time. I will be focusing on Peak Resorts, like Snow, the Tash, and the Crotch for my skiing dollars.


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## threecy (Oct 19, 2007)

Beartrap said:


> After reading that I doubt I will ski there for a long time. I will be focusing on Peak Resorts, like Snow, the Tash, and the Crotch for my skiing dollars.



You should consider some of the independent areas if you're going to spread out your skiing dollars - such as Sugarbush, MRG, Wildcat, Gunstock, etc.  Much more character.  Peak will certainly have good base depths on their snowmaking trails.


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## millerm277 (Oct 19, 2007)

2knees said:


> come on.  You mean to say the sole reason your family chose killington is the fact that you can ski down to rt 4 on a tuesday or wednesday?



No, but it's one of the important reasons, as it's what I essentially learned to ski on, without it, Killington doesn't have much in beginner terrain that is actually useful for beginners. Snowshed always bored me, and on the cold days, being warm in the gondola compared to getting wind whipped in my face on the lift, kept me skiing a lot longer, and kept everyone much happier. (And yes, we are/were usually up midweek, or for a full week).



> Or the fact that you can ski the glades area in mid november?  there are plenty of other early season options, well as early as killington by a couple of days, that offer equal or better terrain.



The late season is more important, we always go up for BMMC or Spring Loaded, and another time or two afterward, and everyone usually has a great time. In addition to that, it actually made them stand out, as it was the only place where we could go up in April and still expect to have something for everyone to ski, and we could plan to go up in Mid-December and know they would be at least open.



> Bottom line,  if they would stay open, even if it was only weekends the last month, till mid may almost all of their other decisions would probably be forgotten once the snow flies.



Here's what would get their screw-ups to be forgiven by most in my opinion:

Run Lower Skyeship every day from opening until at least March 1st. (After that, I could understand not running it all the time.). Also, when Skyeship isn't running....find a way to add the condo's/houses there to the shuttle route (you could probably even get them to pay for part of the cost).

Bring the kids program rates back down to about the same as their competitors.

Make snow whenever you can starting the second week or so of November, this has been discussed a bit on K-zone as well, but they could probably get a much cheaper and easier opening if they started over in the Superstar area instead.

Stay open until at least May 1st. Get some events and such going, so people show up (although, last year...they filled KBL's lots and most of Vale every weekend without doing anything to draw people in).




> Forgotten by the majority i should say, obviously the kids pricing is gonna still tick off that particular clientele and condo owners affected by skyeship may not be so forgiving either.



And lets not forget the former lifetime passholders, along with the employees who were fired. All told....they've angered a sizeable number of people at this point, and after others learn of the changes over the course of the season, and Killington could stand to lose a sizeable number of visits (especially if they don't at least open the Skyeship for the massive numbers of Brits that come over a week or two after Pres. Week).


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## Beartrap (Oct 19, 2007)

threecy said:


> You should consider some of the independent areas if you're going to spread out your skiing dollars - such as Sugarbush, MRG, Wildcat, Gunstock, etc.  Much more character.  Peak will certainly have good base depths on their snowmaking trails.



I would consider them but I take day trips skiing and Killington usually pushes the day trip drive from RI as it is. I usually went on a Tuesday or Wednesday and parked down on RT 4 because it cut some travel time.


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## MikeTrainor (Oct 19, 2007)

threecy said:


> It'll be interesting to look back at these threads in 5 years.



It will, if you piss people off things will catch up with you. Look at ASC's marketing 10 years ago, they were the biggest, best in the east. Then people realize what is really going on, places get dumpy and you lose visits. It it wasn't for the cheap passes the last few years I doubt a lot of people would have gone to those resorts. Some companies that bought the resorts are creating excitement to get people back there, others are pushing people away thinking they will be successful anyways. I would really like to look at this 5 years from now. I just don't think you can take a western philosophy in the North East, I could be wrong...


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## Highway Star (Oct 20, 2007)

MikeTrainor said:


> It will, if you piss people off things will catch up with you. Look at ASC's marketing 10 years ago, they were the biggest, best in the east. Then people realize what is really going on, places get dumpy and you lose visits. It it wasn't for the cheap passes the last few years I doubt a lot of people would have gone to those resorts. Some companies that bought the resorts are creating excitement to get people back there, others are pushing people away thinking they will be successful anyways. I would really like to look at this 5 years from now. I just don't think you can take a western philosophy in the North East, I could be wrong...



Killington's going to see ~500,000 skier visits this year.  Mt. Snow and Okemo are going to beat them in visits......is that good for them?  Somehow, I doubt it.


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## threecy (Oct 20, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> Killington's going to see ~500,000 skier visits this year.  Mt. Snow and Okemo are going to beat them in visits......is that good for them?  Somehow, I doubt it.



If the 500k are paying more and costing them less, it's definitely worth it.  Profit is not the name of the game - profit MARGIN is.  So long as they can cover their overhead etc. with less customers, they win short term.

They invest like they said in the AZ Challenge and become #1 again with a higher margin per skier, they win long term too.

Still way too early to make any conclusions.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 20, 2007)

threecy said:


> If the 500k are paying more and costing them less, it's definitely worth it.  Profit is not the name of the game - profit MARGIN is.




I definitely disagree with this statement.  Unless an operator is an absolute moron at running a businees, there is NO WAY a resort will make more money catering to 500K skiers than they would catering to 750K skiers.  The incremental income that those extra 250K skiers will generate will easily off set an increases in operating expenditures necesitated by them.


Remember, you deposit dollars in the bank.  You can't deposit percentages/margins.  

Time will tell, but I really feel that it is far too late in the game for Killington to re-invent itself.  Being the beast was it's competitive advantage.


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## threecy (Oct 20, 2007)

deadheadskier said:


> I definitely disagree with this statement.  Unless an operator is an absolute moron at running a businees, there is NO WAY a resort will make more money catering to 500K skiers than they would catering to 750K skiers.  The incremental income that those extra 250K skiers will generate will easily off set an increases in operating expenditures necesitated by them.
> 
> 
> Remember, you deposit dollars in the bank.  You can't deposit percentages/margins.
> ...



A 33% decline in skier visits would certainly be a challenge to overcome.  That said, again if they can increase their profit margin while still covering their overhead, it's not necessarily a bad idea.  The 500k number is probably a bad example...but let's just say they lost 100k more skier visits (which isn't hard to believe, considering they won't have as many of the A41 skiers on their slopes).  If they can cut costs at a larger proportion vs. loss of income, they come out ahead in the short term.

If they can then use the higher profit margin to allow them to make smart investment choices over the next few years, they'll see their skier visits rebound at a higher profit margin than they had in recent years.

Sometimes you have to go back to the basics and fix the product before you can see it sell well again.


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## millerm277 (Oct 20, 2007)

threecy said:


> If they can then use the higher profit margin to allow them to make smart investment choices over the next few years, they'll see their skier visits rebound at a higher profit margin than they had in recent years.



As a serious question, what would your suggestion be if they don't turn a profit? Would you bring back what they've cut and lower prices? Or would you cut more and raise prices?



> Sometimes you have to go back to the basics and fix the product before you can see it sell well again.



It will sell fantastically if they'd just put some effort to bringing some energy back, and backing it up with what Killington is known for. They've done nothing that excites anyone. (In a good way, there's plenty of anger).


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## AdironRider (Oct 20, 2007)

Theyve done nothing to excite anyone because everyone wants more for less. That aint going to happen. Give it time, let them have a few seasons to make their infastructure improvements, then if it still sucks you can complain. THis whole Killington fiasco is stupid. ASC went under for a reason, you expect the new ownership to provide more, which still charging less? Simple economics should tell you that isnt going to happen.


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## millerm277 (Oct 20, 2007)

I don't really want to start all of these arguments again...oh well.



AdironRider said:


> Theyve done nothing to excite anyone because everyone wants more for less.



No, if you look through the posts here and on K-Zone, the price itself isn't the problem. The problem is them charging much more, yet giving us much less. And no, that isn't all that could bring some excitment to the place. Announce some upgrades that will being done in the next couple years, with a timeline for them. That would help a lot....just do something positive, other than say you want to build real estate in a market that's in terrible shape for it as it is.



> This whole Killington fiasco is stupid. ASC went under for a reason, you expect the new ownership to provide more, which still charging less? Simple economics should tell you that isnt going to happen.



As we've discussed before, Killington was profitable, ASC as a whole was not, due to massive debt, and owning resorts that lost money (Attitash, and I believe Sugarloaf, along with some of the others they sold before).


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## AdironRider (Oct 20, 2007)

I just dont buy it. Ive followed this whole ordeal since the day it was sold and for the most part theyve told the public what theyre doing and a general plan for the mtn itself. The problems are that noone likes what theyre hearing, as its "increased cost, less service" in their minds. The lifetime passes shouldnt really have been a suprise. Not running a lift 3 days a week (ala skyeship) when the mtn is not crowded, should not be a suprise. Killington has like what 30 lifts? Hate to break it to you, but every other mtn on the east shuts lifts down midweek to save costs. Whiteface rarely runs the freeway lift midweek unless theres racing going on, noone bitches. Its the nature of the resort industry. 

Also, Killington seems to have set a general timescale as to their intended improvements, and frankly is following smart business practices but not commiting to certain improvements 5 years down the road. Things change, they havent even operated the place for 1 season yet. They started with what needed to be done, aka base lodge renovations, etc. As they near completion of those they can begin to look into other improvements. This was ASC's downfall, as they planned way to far in advance, expanded way to rapidly, and in turn died.


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

AdironRider said:


> I just dont buy it. Ive followed this whole ordeal since the day it was sold and for the most part theyve told the public what theyre doing and a general plan for the mtn itself. The problems are that noone likes what theyre hearing, as its "increased cost, less service" in their minds. The lifetime passes shouldnt really have been a suprise. Not running a lift 3 days a week (ala skyeship) when the mtn is not crowded, should not be a suprise. Killington has like what 30 lifts? Hate to break it to you, but every other mtn on the east shuts lifts down midweek to save costs. Whiteface rarely runs the freeway lift midweek unless theres racing going on, noone bitches. Its the nature of the resort industry.
> 
> Also, Killington seems to have set a general timescale as to their intended improvements, and frankly is following smart business practices but not commiting to certain improvements 5 years down the road. Things change, they havent even operated the place for 1 season yet. They started with what needed to be done, aka base lodge renovations, etc. As they near completion of those they can begin to look into other improvements. This was ASC's downfall, as they planned way to far in advance, expanded way to rapidly, and in turn died.



Bingo


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> As a serious question, what would your suggestion be if they don't turn a profit? Would you bring back what they've cut and lower prices? Or would you cut more and raise prices?


Cut a bit more waste.  They're increasing their profit margin by making these unpopular changes, so their variable expenses should be fine.   There are still plenty of skiers to take care of the fixed/overhead.



millerm277 said:


> It will sell fantastically if they'd just put some effort to bringing some energy back, and backing it up with what Killington is known for. They've done nothing that excites anyone. (In a good way, there's plenty of anger).



They need to put together a new product. They could very easily have 1M skier visits this year if they wanted to - via aggressive giveaways, discounts, and prices.  That does them no good.  Cut the waste, fix what you have, get it running efficiently, build it out, then look at trying to set skier visit records.  It's not a popular strategy, but I think it has a chance of working out for them.


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## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2007)

threecy said:


> Cut a bit more waste.  They're increasing their profit margin by making these unpopular changes, so their variable expenses should be fine.   There are still plenty of skiers to take care of the fixed/overhead.
> 
> 
> 
> They need to put together a new product. They could very easily have 1M skier visits this year if they wanted to - via aggressive giveaways, discounts, and prices.  That does them no good.  Cut the waste, fix what you have, get it running efficiently, build it out, then look at trying to set skier visit records.  It's not a popular strategy, but I think it has a chance of working out for them.



ROFL....what is your ski industry experience again?

Maybe they'll get enough visits........maybe NOT.

Thay are claiming to have a premium, better product than ASC, in some ways, but have cut the season and services........so how is it really better?  

How are they so sure they are actually going to increase their yeild per visit?  They may not.  People may pay the higher ticket prices, but they may also cut back on their optional spending at the mountain....cutting back their spending for lodging, food/bev, gear and instruction.  

Run the numbers....do you know how???  With the 150 day season, their announced lift/terrain operating schedule, and goals of reducing Saturday crowding, it is highly likely they will only see 500K visits this year.  That's not even taking into account all the negative pubicity.  There's no way they could get 1,000,000 visits....only if they went to something like a $30 day ticket....ROFL.  

It cost around $40 Million to run Killington in the '05/'06 season.  That's before admin expenses (around ~$8m).  That was also with a yield per visit of ~$73, on ~800k visits for ~$58M revenue.  The operating profit that year was a bit over $8M.

500k visits at that yield is around $36.5M.....you see a problem here?  They sure as hell better be able to actually increase their overall yield, combined with a pretty major cut in expenses, if they want to ACTUALLY turn a profit.  Can they drive the yield to over $100 per visit???  Maybe, but somehow I doubt it....that means they sell lots of full price tickets and then tag plenty of people of for extras.  But what about people who buy a $650 blackout pass, and ski 20-30 days, at ~$25 a day?  Or people who bought a $1000 pass and ski 40 days?  Nobody, I MEAN NOBODY, drops $1,000 for a Killington pass and only skis 15 days....as much as POWDR may wish it.

Realisticly, I think they be lucky to hit $85 per visit, maybe $90.  Lets say $90.  With 500,000 visits, they'll see $45M in revenue.  POWDR wants to see a ~30%+ operating profit.....or roughly $15M.....that gives them enough to pay their debts to the bank, pay SP Land a cut, pay their admins/execs in Utah, and then a chunk left over for capital investment in Killington....somewhere to the tune of $5-$10 Million....but don't hold your breath for $10 Million.....ROFL.  

Anyway, that only gives them around $30M to play with for running the resort, including admin.  Hence, all the layoffs, cutbacks and closures.  Lets say they spend around $3-4M for admin.  The previous target for snowmaking WAS 3,000 acre feet of snow....will they spend the money for that, or cut back to 2,000 or 2,500?  Snow ain't cheap....they are going to try to keep the cost per acre foot down in the $1,000 to $2,000 range by only blowing when it's cold out.  They are going to groom alot and burn tons of diesel doing so.  Lifts cost money to run.....which is why they are closing so many down.  We'll also see a skeleton crew of people on the mountain, compared to ASC....they just can't afford it.

Anyway.....who knows.  All I can say is that Killington/Pico hasn't been run on a ~$25-30M operations budget for a long, long time....and never in it's current configuration.  There will be MANY noticeable changes for the negative.  The final straw is that combined with the cutbacks in budget, I think that POWDR simply doesn't have the operational competence to run Killington....it's quite possibly the most complicated resort in the east, if not the country.


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## BeanoNYC (Oct 21, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> ROFL....what is your ski industry experience again?
> 
> 
> Run the numbers....do you know how???



You make some good points but unfortunately it's comments like these that discredit you.  Perhaps, if you stop being so abrasive, someone will take your more productive comments seriously.


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## Highway Star (Oct 21, 2007)

BeanoNYC said:


> You make some good points but unfortunately it's comments like these that discredit you.  Perhaps, if you stop being so abrasive, someone will take your more productive comments seriously.





Threecry doesn't know what he's talked about...sue me!!!

If you don't like my attitude, you can go jump in a lake!!!!


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm not saying its *realistic* that they'd get 1m skier visits this year, but they certainly could if that was the metric they were going after.

Killington is NOT the first ski area trying to go for a higher profit margin rather than simply just going after skier visits.  There are numerous mountains out there who took a significant hit in skier visits in order to improve the value and profitability of their normal priced tickets.  Pretty similar response in a few of these too - why are they getting rid of such and such discount/program, why aren't they running such and such lifts all the time anymore, etc.  In some instances, this idea worked really well - years later the ski areas would recover the visits via higher margin tickets, etc.


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## BeanoNYC (Oct 21, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> If you don't like my attitude, you can go jump in a lake!!!!




Thanks for proving my point.   

:beer:


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## millerm277 (Oct 21, 2007)

threecy said:


> Killington is NOT the first ski area trying to go for a higher profit margin rather than simply just going after skier visits.



That's true. However, Killington was designed with the goal of getting massive numbers of skier visits, not with making high margins. It's not set-up in a way (and will never be, there's no way to do it), that allows you to cut much without making the experience MUCH worse.

I agree with HS's post completely (other than the insults of course)...and personally, I see a death sprial developing. What's going to happen is that visits are going to fall significantly this year, and keep dropping as other areas make real investments in their resorts. They'll cut more, since they're making much less money (or losing a lot), and more people will leave.....and they cycle will continue until they give up and sell. Also, thanks to the PR disasters so far, the buzz is all negative, and word is continuing to spread, among "normal" people as well.


On another note, Powdr has NEVER operated an eastern resort before. From what they've done so far, I don't think they understand the eastern market and what it requires.


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## Newpylong (Oct 21, 2007)

AdironRider said:


> Theyve done nothing to excite anyone because everyone wants more for less. That aint going to happen. Give it time, let them have a few seasons to make their infastructure improvements, then if it still sucks you can complain. THis whole Killington fiasco is stupid. ASC went under for a reason, you expect the new ownership to provide more, which still charging less? Simple economics should tell you that isnt going to happen.




Huh... They've done nothing to excite anyone because they are doing less for more! ASC went under because of their drunken sailor spending of the 90's, not because of their operation of Killington. The numbers were public, Killington was profitable running as is. It's parent compant was broke, not the mountain. Why does POWDR have to "make money" before they can spend it? That's complete bullshit... the company already has capital, and just by turning the lift's your going to make more... People expected something after dealing with a broke company for so long, instead, now we have a company that isn't broke, that is spending even less, and charging more. Their business model is doomed...  You want to survive in the East? Don't create ripples on the water... come in and feel your way through things, spend a little money, create a buzz, get people excited. They've done the opposite, and their neighbors are going to benefit.


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> That's true. However, Killington was designed with the goal of getting massive numbers of skier visits, not with making high margins. It's not set-up in a way (and will never be, there's no way to do it), that allows you to cut much without making the experience MUCH worse.



True, its set up for massive crowds.  That said, there are ways to cut back in the short term, reorganize, get the margins up, then move forward.



millerm277 said:


> What's going to happen is that visits are going to fall significantly this year, and keep dropping as other areas make real investments in their resorts. They'll cut more, since they're making much less money (or losing a lot), and more people will leave.....and they cycle will continue until they give up and sell.



I think you're jumping to conclusions...just because they haven't said "we installed 4 HSQs next year and cutting 10 trails the year after that" doesn't mean they're not going to invest in KMart.  I really do think these threads will be interesting to read in 5 years.


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

Newpylong said:


> Why does POWDR have to "make money" before they can spend it? That's complete bullshit...



See ASC.


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## millerm277 (Oct 21, 2007)

threecy said:


> True, its set up for massive crowds.  That said, there are ways to cut back in the short term, reorganize, get the margins up, then move forward.



How so? They essentially have to run a minimum of 7 lifts (plus Sunrise, due to the agreement they've got with the condo owners), to allow proper access to all the terrain. As we've already seen with the Skyeship Stage I issue, reducing available terrain midweek is not going to go over well, and cutting other lifts would bring about an even worse response, and would make a significant impact on available terrain.

Superstar is the only lift that could be closed without impacting open terrain significantly, but I can't see them doing that.




> I think you're jumping to conclusions...just because they haven't said "we installed 4 HSQs next year and cutting 10 trails the year after that" doesn't mean they're not going to invest in KMart.



I wouldn't expect something like that. 

What I expect by next year (and in reality, they could have done or started all of these this summer).

Action on modernizing and improving the snowmaking system.
Action on fixing some of the easy to improve trouble spots. (Eliminate Low Traverse, put a fence, or better yet, some trees to separate Great Northern from Chute/Mouse Trap/Bunny Buster.
I expect to see a timeline/plan for replacing both the Skye Peak Quad, and for the Snowdon lift(s).

Maybe a strategy to figure out how to make early and late season cost less to do, so that they will actually do it.




threecy said:


> See ASC.



We weren't expecting to see massive improvements this year. We were just expecting to see more than fixing some of what's broken. Sinking in the amount of money K typically makes would have been a good idea in my opinion (between 8 and 14 million, not 3 million in maintainence).


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> How so? They essentially have to run a minimum of 7 lifts (plus Sunrise, due to the agreement they've got with the condo owners), to allow proper access to all the terrain. As we've already seen with the Skyeship Stage I issue, reducing available terrain midweek is not going to go over well, and cutting other lifts would bring about an even worse response, and would make a significant impact on available terrain.



The season hasn't even begun, so I think it's a bit early to conclude how closing Stage 1 has gone over.



millerm277 said:


> Action on modernizing and improving the snowmaking system.
> Action on fixing some of the easy to improve trouble spots. (Eliminate Low Traverse, put a fence, or better yet, some trees to separate Great Northern from Chute/Mouse Trap/Bunny Buster.
> I expect to see a timeline/plan for replacing both the Skye Peak Quad, and for the Snowdon lift(s).



They are putting money into the snowmaking system on both mountains.  For all we know, they may be waiting on a massive snowmaking investment until they see how a year of 100 fan guns works out at Mt. Snow/Attitash.
Putting in a fence in a trouble spot is something that can be done with a drill and some fencing.  In the AZ Challenge, I did see some references to some adjustments to the trail system...it's a bit late in the year to start dropping sapplings into the ground with snowmaking right around the corner.
I think its clear via the AZ Challenge that for now management doesn't want to make plans public - not a bad idea...this industry is filled with plans that either never happen or happen years late at smaller scale.  Unless you're part of the ownership, there's no reason they need to tell you what their plan is for the Skye Peak or Snowdon lifts.



millerm277 said:


> We weren't expecting to see massive improvements this year. We were just expecting to see more than fixing some of what's broken. Sinking in the amount of money K typically makes would have been a good idea in my opinion (between 8 and 14 million, not 3 million in maintainence).



This is blunt, but quite frankly they shouldn't care what the 'we' in that statement is expecting to see in terms of what they should invest in their business.

They just dropped a huge sum on buying this property.  It makes no sense to drop 8 figures on something that, at least in some people's eyes, has a bunch of fundamental problems that need to be fixed first.

By the way, you said you would not expect something like that in response to my 'install 4 HSQ' statement...that would fit in the upper end of $8-14M investment that you suggest.


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## Geoff (Oct 21, 2007)

threecy said:


> They just dropped a huge sum on buying this property.  It makes no sense to drop 8 figures on something that, at least in some people's eyes, has a bunch of fundamental problems that need to be fixed first.




Actually, the E2M Partners guys from Texas pretty much stole the resort.  They got 75% interest in the buildable land at the bottom from an ASC loan default.  ASC was liquidating their portfolio and nobody wanted to buy Killington since ASC had squandered the land that had the real estate profits in the deal.  For $75 million, E2M got the remaining 25% of the land plus all the ski resort assets.  They then turned around and got POWDR to give them a bunch of cash to buy into the deal.  I've heard POWDR has 80% interest in the resort and E2M/SP Land has 20%.  POWDR also has some minor interest in the real estate.

So.... it was more like "steal of the century" than "dropped a huge sum".  It is disappointing that they're not willing to invest in infrastructure beyond what can only be called routine maintanence.


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## Lostone (Oct 21, 2007)

I think it is their plan to lose money for a number of years.  The goal is total customer replacement.  They want to market to a clientèle that has money and puts it down.  Problem is that those people don't want to ski around the people that (over)populated K-mart in the past.

So they make it bad, so that the former K-mart regulars move on.  Then they start to improve things to appeal to a more exclusive customer.

I think their plan is to take the hit until the customer base is gone, then build another one.

ASC's plan to offer rock bottom prices and get everyone to jump didn't work.  They're placing their bets differently.  Will it work?  Stay tuned.  But don't look for a change this year or next.  I'm guessing it is a five year plan.


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## millerm277 (Oct 21, 2007)

threecy said:


> The season hasn't even begun, so I think it's a bit early to conclude how closing Stage 1 has gone over.



That decision seems to have tipped the entire town firmly against KSRP, it's at the point now where K-zone has been mentioned by the Killington Selectboard as a reliable source of information because Powdr is so terrible as informing anyone of anything.



> They are putting money into the snowmaking system on both mountains.  For all we know, they may be waiting on a massive snowmaking investment until they see how a year of 100 fan guns works out at Mt. Snow/Attitash.



From everything that they've mentioned, they aren't really. They replaced a bunch of pipe, that probably had to be replaced to continue using the system. They also bought a bunch more Low-E guns, which seems good until you look into it. As has been discussed before, the guns they have been purchasing have multiple serious flaws for using at Killington. They have a low output, which means you are going to need more of them to make the same amount of snow as the old guns, and since Kmart has no automation, that is going to be even more work for the already way overburdened snowmakers. They also have an incredibly weak throw, so unless it's very calm, they're making as much snow in the glades as they are on the trail.

By major investment, I meant I want to see things fixed completely, and improved where needed this year. I want to see the pipes fixed on all the trails. (Valley Plunge no longer is even listed as having snowmaking, and multiple other trails's snowmaking likely does not work). I want to see them buy some decent snowguns, not necessarily fan guns, but something that is more efficient than the K3000's, yet actually is useful. (Like the Ratnik's and such).




> Putting in a fence in a trouble spot is something that can be done with a drill and some fencing.  In the AZ Challenge, I did see some references to some adjustments to the trail system...it's a bit late in the year to start dropping sapplings into the ground with snowmaking right around the corner.



That's true, but could have done it at any point all summer, and this is a huge problem, that is well known to anyone that has ever skied Killington.



> I think its clear via the AZ Challenge that for now management doesn't want to make plans public - not a bad idea...this industry is filled with plans that either never happen or happen years late at smaller scale.  Unless you're part of the ownership, there's no reason they need to tell you what their plan is for the Skye Peak or Snowdon lifts.



Yes, but those plans are what get people interested/excited in the area, and when you aren't actually doing anything significant, divulging some of those plans would be a good idea to keep people interested/excited about the area. (And also, if people actually have something more than a vague suggestion to look forward to, they are much more willing to put up with changes they don't like).




> This is blunt, but quite frankly they shouldn't care what the 'we' in that statement is expecting to see in terms of what they should invest in their business.



I disagree. While all skiers aren't going to know what I mentioned there, they do see that nothing major has changed at Killington for the better, and nothing seems to be changing anytime soon, yet they are paying more. (and getting less if skiing weekdays). And, they also see that Killington's competitors have been making lots of good changes.



> They just dropped a huge sum on buying this property.  It makes no sense to drop 8 figures on something that, at least in some people's eyes, has a bunch of fundamental problems that need to be fixed first.



Are you referring to what Powdr seems to see as fundamental problems in their business model, or as to what the fundamental problems with the mountain are?



> By the way, you said you would not expect something like that in response to my 'install 4 HSQ' statement...that would fit in the upper end of $8-14M investment that you suggest.



Hadn't even thought of that. I guess K's traditional profit would pay for 4 HSQ's, makes ASC's spending there seem a lot less ridiculous. It also shows how going for massive numbers of skiers, and having a long season seems to have resulted in a very healthy profit for the area.......


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## millerm277 (Oct 21, 2007)

Geoff said:


> I've heard POWDR has 80% interest in the resort and E2M/SP Land has 20%.  POWDR also has some minor interest in the real estate.



Assuming that's correct, there's got to be a hell of a lot of tension there these days. I can't imagine E2M/SP Land is at all happy with anything Powdr is doing...


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

Sox are on commercial so I don't have much time, but in regards to the snowmaking system, a complete fix or a complete overhaul in one off season, especially for an area of their size, is not realistic.  As long as they have the main pipelines going, it doesn't make sense to dump tens of thousands of dollars into replacing spurs that are only used a few days a year - if they intend to rework the entire system in the near future.  I'm not familiar with the inner workings of their snowmaking system, but if its anything similar to their trails or lifts, its likely a but cluttered to say the least.  Just like with the lift system, they likely need to go back and rework the main arteries before they deal with the lesser used spurs.

It'll be interesting to see if they consider a roll out of fan guns in the future - if they do, it changes the entire system and the way it's currently designed/used.


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## threecy (Oct 21, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> Assuming that's correct, there's got to be a hell of a lot of tension there these days. I can't imagine E2M/SP Land is at all happy with anything Powdr is doing...



I don't think its as bad as people here think...for a larger company based in a different part of the country, they're not going to be as concerned with local thoughts (for a destination resort), and certainly not with stuff seen on internet forums.

If Killington was getting this treatment in a wide-scale fashion in the NYC press, that'd be a different story.


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## millerm277 (Oct 21, 2007)

threecy said:


> I don't think its as bad as people here think...for a larger company based in a different part of the country, they're not going to be as concerned with local thoughts (for a destination resort), and certainly not with stuff seen on internet forums.



I was more referring to the fact that the more of these decisions Powdr makes, the less likely it is that the K selectboard is going to let them build anything unless forced, and the worse the real estate market in Killington is going to get. E2M/SP Land obviously are just here to build the village, they were probably hoping that Powdr would put a bunch of money in, and they'd get their permits easily, sell it easily, and get out.



> It'll be interesting to see if they consider a roll out of fan guns in the future - if they do, it changes the entire system and the way it's currently designed/used.



I know they've tested out a few in the past, and were reportedly happy with them. I don't think that it would be worth it to ever cover large parts of the mountain with them, but they would probably be great around the base areas, and on some of the super high-traffic stuff.


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## threecy (Oct 22, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> I know they've tested out a few in the past, and were reportedly happy with them. I don't think that it would be worth it to ever cover large parts of the mountain with them, but they would probably be great around the base areas, and on some of the super high-traffic stuff.



I think you'd probably see fan guns on Bear, Superstar, the Canyon, and possibly Ram's Head...that'd be a very expensive proposition, but it would certainly be a consideration...one would think they'd consider buying a bunch of carriage mounts and trying them out the new SMI towers.


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## millerm277 (Oct 22, 2007)

threecy said:


> If Killington was getting this treatment in a wide-scale fashion in the NYC press, that'd be a different story.



It may be starting to get out to the average skiers, according to Rogman, this is in the latest (November) issue of Ski Magazine.



> Lifetime Passes---Or Until We Cancel Them
> Killington skiers, long weary of delayed improvements cheered when Utah-based Powdr Corp. purchased the Vermont resort. But the new owners...didn't hear cheers when they announced they'll no longer accept lifetime passes granted to people who invested $1,000 in Preston Smith's new resort in 1958. Subsequent Killington owners had honored the passes...
> ... Powdr has announced plans for expansions and upgrades, but they've also laid off employees, increased prices and decided to close the lifts in April, bringing an end to the East's longest ski season. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders has called for a U.S. Dept of Labor probe into the layoffs. And the locals will be a little gruffer--if that's possible-- in the liftlines this year.


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## mountainman (Oct 22, 2007)

*SMI Pole cats are a no brainer.*



threecy said:


> I think you'd probably see fan guns on Bear, Superstar, the Canyon, and possibly Ram's Head...that'd be a very expensive proposition, but it would certainly be a consideration...one would think they'd consider buying a bunch of carriage mounts and trying them out the new SMI towers.



With the amount of water Killington has it's a no brainer. Fans guns are the way to go, look at all the bananna belt resorts. FAN GUNS Hello. Auto mated systems. Cut down on wages and staff for snomaking. Look at Wisp in Maryland. Takes about 5 snomakers a shift. Hit a few buttons 150 guns come on, computers in guns set the settings. HELLO. Enough ced.


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## millerm277 (Oct 22, 2007)

mountainman said:


> With the amount of water Killington has it's a no brainer. Fans guns are the way to go, look at all the bananna belt resorts. FAN GUNS Hello. Auto mated systems. Cut down on wages and staff for snomaking. Look at Wisp in Maryland. Takes about 5 snomakers a shift. Hit a few buttons 150 guns come on, computers in guns set the settings. HELLO. Enough ced.



The main problem with that is the cost. Trying to outfit the entire mountain with fan guns would cost an insane amount of money.

However, a good strategy in my opinion would be to put automated fan guns in the base areas, along with along some of the supertrails and high-traffic intersections. Put automated towers over most of the main trails that see a lot of snowmaking. (They've got manual towers already over a lot of the main stuff, but more are needed, of the high-output and automated variety)

Leave the portable, manual guns for the trails that aren't crucial to make snow on and don't always see snowmaking, or only see snowmaking once during the season. (Like Falls Brook).


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## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

An automated fan gun system is by NO means cheap - in fact there is not a full blown automated fan gun system at any mid-sized or large ski area in New England (not even Crotched).  The hydrants alone for one of those systems are thousands.

Covering Killington completely in fan guns (not even automated) would come at a price tag larger than it was recently purchased for.


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## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> It may be starting to get out to the average skiers, according to Rogman, this is in the latest (November) issue of Ski Magazine.



I may be kicking a sleeping bear here, but the average skier doesn't subscribe to Ski Magazone


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## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

threecy said:


> I don't think its as bad as people here think...for a larger company based in a different part of the country, they're not going to be as concerned with local thoughts (for a destination resort), and certainly not with stuff seen on internet forums.
> 
> If Killington was getting this treatment in a wide-scale fashion in the NYC press, that'd be a different story.



ROFL.....I'm glad the "industry rep" doesn't care about PR and image. 

Just about everybody and there mother has heard about Killington's bad rap this year.  Either through the internet or word of mouth.  Casual skiers talk to the diehards and get a clue about what is going on.  It's also pretty damn easy to do a google search on "killington forum" and find out what's going on.

Be even disregarding that, people will take a look at two things and decide for themselves.  The amount of terrrain and lifts running when they want to go skiing, and the PRICES.  Then they will decide where to ski.  

I think it's hilarious that you think that the average skier is simply a moron.  Sure they may be a terminal intermediate and a huge gaper, but they are typically intelligent, professional people.  Where do they get to money to go skiing?   In fact, most of them are better paid and smarter than you........and the rest of the ski industry on average, while we're at it!!!!  You can take you ski industry ego and shove it!!!  

People are NOT stupid...they know a good experience, service, and value when they see it.


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## millerm277 (Oct 23, 2007)

threecy said:


> I may be kicking a sleeping bear here, but the average skier doesn't subscribe to Ski Magazone



Ah, but neither do people that typically post here. It's often those rich skiers...such as the ones that vote for Okemo for best ski area because of it's grooming. The same group Killington has said it wants...


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## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> ROFL.....I'm glad the "industry rep" doesn't care about PR and image.


I never said that.  I'm simply trying to present an alternate side to what otherwise is an all-out Killington/SP/Powdr flame fest around here.



Highway Star said:


> Just about everybody and there mother has heard about Killington's bad rap this year.  Either through the internet or word of mouth.  Casual skiers talk to the diehards and get a clue about what is going on.  It's also pretty damn easy to do a google search on "killington forum" and find out what's going on.


I think you're overestimating this.  You'd be surprised how many people don't even know Killington was sold. 



Highway Star said:


> Be even disregarding that, people will take a look at two things and decide for themselves.  The amount of terrrain and lifts running when they want to go skiing, and the PRICES.  Then they will decide where to ski.


Firstly, I count three things there, not two.  Secondly, other than things like the A41 pass, I don't think most people choose Killington based upon prices.  Even with the announced closures during the week, Killington still has more terrain and lifts than pretty much anyone else in the east (depending upon what other areas are running at that time).



Highway Star said:


> I think it's hilarious that you think that the average skier is simply a moron.


I think it's hilarious that you basically think anyone who disagrees with you is a moron.




Highway Star said:


> In fact, most of them are better paid and smarter than you........and the rest of the ski industry on average, while we're at it!!!!  You can take you ski industry ego and shove it!!!


Nice words, thank you.  By the way, I don't make my living from the ski industry.



Highway Star said:


> People are NOT stupid...they know a good experience, service, and value when they see it.


That is correct.


----------



## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> Ah, but neither do people that typically post here. It's often those rich skiers...such as the ones that vote for Okemo for best ski area because of it's grooming. The same group Killington has said it wants...



Okemo has certainly captured a lot of people in Killington's market - and has been doing so for years.  My point is that the ski magazine industry is not as heavily read or powerful as some people think it is.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

threecy said:


> I never said that.  I'm simply trying to present an alternate side to what otherwise is an all-out Killington/SP/Powdr flame fest around here.
> 
> 
> I think you're overestimating this.  You'd be surprised how many people don't even know Killington was sold.
> ...



Why don't you say something of value, instaid of just the constant spewing?  You just argue for the sake of arguement, and never really have a point.  Learn what you're talking about, and stop wasting everyone's time.

People who don't ski Killington might not know the resort was sold.  Everybody else, who skis there more than two days a year, has probably figured it out by now....probably because the LACK of ASC.  People can look at the website and figure it out....DUH!  IF not, they'll be figuring out out shortly.

HOW do you know that people don't know???  Do you just as strangers off the street, who don't actaully ski???


----------



## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> Why don't you say something of value, instaid of just the constant spewing?


You sir are the one who resorts to name calling and insults.  Whether or not you agree with the points I make, I feel they add an alternate side to the discussion.



Highway Star said:


> HOW do you know that people don't know???  Do you just as strangers off the street, who don't actaully ski???



Friends, friends of friends, some seasonal people who work at ski areas, hikers I meet, etc.  I've been in Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine in recent weeks and have talked to skiers and non skiers.  While many do know Killington was sold, a bunch do not.  An interesting side point - showing the power of word of mouth - more know that Mt. Snow was sold and that Peak is investing heavily in snowmaking there.

Am I saying that's a scientific study?  No.  However, it is really important to know that AZ and the Killington forums are not representative of all skiers in New England, but rather a subset.  A majority of New England skiers do not have accounts on AlpineZone, SnowJournal, etc.  Diehards do.


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## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

threecy said:


> You sir are the one who resorts to name calling and insults.  Whether or not you agree with the points I make, I feel they add an alternate side to the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I insult you because you're a clown who deserves to be insulted.  Your posts typically lack factual basis and good reasoning, and yet you arrogantly spew on and on and on.....yikes.  You deserve exactly what you get from me.  People have PM'd me about you, so I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

Plus you have "industry rep" by your name (with that silly karate-kid picture).  People casually reading this board might mistakenly think you know what you're talking about...that would be bad.

Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME don't know Killington was sold???  IMAGINE THAT?!?!  How many actual KILLINGTON SKIERS did you encounter in your travels?  What did they know?  Christ.....

Here's a suggestion for you, buddy.  Just quit talking about Killington.  You don't have a horse in this race.  You don't ski there, you don't have any friends there.  You don't have a stake in the deal because you simply don't spend your time and money there.  And you are ill-informed about it, to boot.  So JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT IT............mmmkay?  PLEASE!!!!!

THANKS, bu-bye.......!!!!!


----------



## rachelv (Oct 23, 2007)

I don't want to get into a whole thing here, but I agree that the word hasn't spread quite as far as some people think it has. One of our good friends who we ski Killington with 10+ days per season, a guy who skis about 30 days a year total, didn't even know that Killington was sold until I mentioned it to him.

Yes, a lot of the "hard core" eastern skiers know, everyone who owns property there knows. But a lot of the weekends-only crowd, a lot of the people who skied enough for an ASC bronze pass but not enough for a pass this year - they just don't know. It's not because they're "morons", it's just because they don't spend their free time reading ski forums, and they're not close enough to read the local press.

Does any of this matter? Who knows?  I'm just anxious for the season to start already so we can start  basing this whole debate on facts instead of speculation.


----------



## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> I insult you because you're a clown who deserves to be insulted.  Your posts typically lack factual basis and good reasoning, and yet you arrogantly spew on and on and on.....yikes.  You deserve exactly what you get from me.  People have PM'd me about you, so I know exactly who I'm dealing with.



From the previous threads where you've said stuff along these lines, you've never actually listed out matters of which you think I'm wrong, other than matters of how Killington is seen by other people.



Highway Star said:


> Plus you have "industry rep" by your name (with that silly karate-kid picture).  People casually reading this board might mistakenly think you know what you're talking about...that would be bad.



I've never actually taken karate, nor have I seen those films, just to clarify (photo was taken jumping off a small cliff on Mt. Monadnock).  I have 10 years of industry experience in different capacities.  If you wish to take this discussion off the boards, I'm more than happy to answer your questions.



Highway Star said:


> Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME don't know Killington was sold???  IMAGINE THAT?!?!  How many actual KILLINGTON SKIERS did you encounter in your travels?  What did they know?  Christ.....



See, here's one of the reasons why we seem to be butting heads.  I said "Friends, friends of friends, some seasonal people who work at ski areas, hikers I meet, etc. I've been in Vermont, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine in recent weeks and have talked to skiers and non skiers."  You derived from that, "Non-skiing hikers in MA, NH, and ME."

And for the record, amongst the people included in my statement (not the one you derived from it), there are people who have primary and vacation homes (New Yorkers) within about half an hour from Killington.  Most of them knew, but not all.  All were skiers/boarders, however.



Highway Star said:


> Here's a suggestion for you, buddy.  Just quit talking about Killington.  You don't have a horse in this race.  You don't ski there, you don't have any friends there.  You don't have a stake in the deal because you simply don't spend your time and money there.  And you are ill-informed about it, to boot.  So JUST STOP TALKING ABOUT IT............mmmkay?  PLEASE!!!!!
> 
> THANKS, bu-bye.......!!!!!



I intend to continue discussing it so long as there are points I can add to the discussion.  It's important in these threads to keep some alternate view points alive, as otherwise it turns into a mob scene.  No one benefits from that.

If this thread continues in this direction, i.e. you bashing me and throwing it into the gutter, I will stop responding to your posts, just as I did in an earlier thread.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

The Karate Kid said:


> From the previous threads where you've said stuff along these lines, you've never actually listed out matters of which you think I'm wrong, other than matters of how Killington is seen by other people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OOoooo.....again, you have little to nothing of value to say.

Just give Killington a rest.....there's plenty of other things for you spew about.  Please.  You DO NOT have a valid point of view.

Did you check out my avatar....?  Now I have a really cool Karate Kid picture too....


----------



## 2knees (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> I insult you because you're a clown who deserves to be insulted.  Your posts typically lack factual basis and good reasoning, and yet you arrogantly spew on and on and on.....yikes.  You deserve exactly what you get from me.  People have PM'd me about you, so I know exactly who I'm dealing with.
> 
> Plus you have "industry rep" by your name (with that silly karate-kid picture).  People casually reading this board might mistakenly think you know what you're talking about...that would be bad.
> 
> ...



knock it off child.  you're gonna get this thread locked.  Are you capable of having a debate without relying on insults?  It doesnt exacty strengthen your case.


----------



## threecy (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> OOoooo.....again, you have little to nothing of value to say.
> 
> Just give Killington a rest.....there's plenty of other things for you spew about.  Please.  You DO NOT have a valid point of view.
> 
> Did you check out my avatar....?  Now I have a really cool Karate Kid picture too....



And what was the value in that post?  You again never cited the instances in which I'm wrong.

And who are you to declare who has a valid point of view and who does not?

I'm beginning to wonder if you have some sort of stake in seeing SP/Powdr fail.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

threecy said:


> And what was the value in that post?  You again never cited the instances in which I'm wrong.
> 
> And who are you to declare who has a valid point of view and who does not?
> 
> I'm beginning to wonder if you have some sort of stake in seeing SP/Powdr fail.



I'm not going to waste my time arguing you, because you're not worth argueing with!!!  Your posts are mostly pointless BS, so why should I bother?   It's much more constructive to simply notify people that you IN GENERAL, don't have a clue what you're talking about.  Sorry.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

2knees said:


> knock it off child.  you're gonna get this thread locked.  Are you capable of having a debate without relying on insults?  It doesnt exacty strengthen your case.



Aren't you Threecry's bastard cousin?


----------



## Greg (Oct 23, 2007)

Listen. And I'm only going to say this once. If some people can't get their POV across without resorting to flames, I'm going to lock this thread. I really don't want to do that considering this is a challenge feedback thread. I would have hoped some of you could have considered that before jumping into this thread to flame others. I spent 30+ minutes on the phone with Mr. Nyberg convincing him to participate here. My argument was that AlpineZone is generally a civil community. This little back and forth bitch session now makes me look like an idiot and I don't appreciate that.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 23, 2007)

Sorry Greg.  You know about my contempt for Threecry's involvement on this subject.


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## Greg (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> Sorry Greg.  You know about my contempt for Threecry's involvement on this subject.



See? You really could have stopped at "Sorry Greg." :roll:


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 23, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> I'm not going to waste my time arguing you, because you're not worth argueing with!!!  Your posts are mostly pointless BS, so why should I bother?   It's much more constructive to simply notify people that you IN GENERAL, don't have a clue what you're talking about.  Sorry.



I think Highway Star needs a timeout...uke:


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## JimG. (Oct 23, 2007)

I just don't understand.

I just read a post about Mt. Snow's $6 million summer and how it includes a new clock. That's important?

Killington spends $5.3 million and all they get is crap about it. Just maintenance they say. Isn't that an improvement over last year?

And the Killington regulars seem more concerned with trashing their mountain than supporting it. If I were Killington management I would continue to do exactly what they have been doing since the end of last season. Until every last one of those regulars left and went to ski elsewhere.

Because it seems their current clientele has not an iota of loyalty. All you want to do is bash the new owners. It's pitiful.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 23, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I just don't understand.
> 
> I just read a post about Mt. Snow's $6 million summer and how it includes a new clock. That's important?
> 
> ...




I agree...the locals should be welcoming and supportive of the new owners..In the long run I see Killington improving alot except for the lack of early and late season skiing, closures of most of the lodges, midweek closures of Pico and the Skyeship, laying off longtime employees, dramatically raising prices, and taking away lifetime season passes...actually Killington is not improving for the locals...what was I thinking...lots of motels and restaurants will go out of business due to less skier visits..some locals will lose jobs...but the new bathrooms sound mad steezy yo


----------



## millerm277 (Oct 23, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I just don't understand.
> 
> I just read a post about Mt. Snow's $6 million summer and how it includes a new clock. That's important?
> 
> Killington spends $5.3 million and all they get is crap about it. Just maintenance they say. Isn't that an improvement over last year?



What Mt. Snow has done are actual improvements. 100 fan guns count as a real improvement.

What Killington has done are not actual improvements in my book. Painting the lifts (and doing a half-assed job of it), replacing the carpeting in the lodge, and replacing dead pipe are not improvments, they're the same matinence they have to do every year if they want to continue using those things.



> And the Killington regulars seem more concerned with trashing their mountain than supporting it. If I were Killington management I would continue to do exactly what they have been doing since the end of last season. Until every last one of those regulars left and went to ski elsewhere.



I love and support the mountain and community. I don't support the management. There is a difference there.



GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I agree...the locals should be welcoming and supportive of the new owners..In the long run I see Killington improving alot except for the lack of early and late season skiing, closures of most of the lodges, midweek closures of Pico and the Skyeship, laying off longtime employees, dramatically raising prices, and taking away lifetime season passes...actually Killington is not improving for the locals...what was I thinking...lots of motels and restaurants will go out of business due to less skier visits..some locals will lose jobs...but the new bathrooms sound mad steezy yo



So, why would any of the locals be welcoming and supportive of the new owners? Everything you listed there is bad for them, not good. For lack of any other way to put it, treating your long-time customers, locals, and the general community like crap is not a way to run a successful business, and acting like our current president when it comes to disclosing information is not a good strategy either.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 23, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> What Mt. Snow has done are actual improvements. 100 fan guns count as a real improvement.
> 
> What Killington has done are not actual improvements in my book. Painting the lifts (and doing a half-assed job of it), replacing the carpeting in the lodge, and replacing dead pipe are not improvments, they're the same matinence they have to do every year if they want to continue using those things.
> 
> ...




It was a poor attempt at sarcasm...lol..imagine Belleayre opening before Killington..lol..it might happen..


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 23, 2007)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> It was a poor attempt at sarcasm...lol..imagine Belleayre opening before Killington..lol..it might happen..



not that poor of an attempt, got me laughing.


----------



## trtaylor (Oct 23, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> not that poor of an attempt, got me laughing.



Me too. I'm surprised millerm227 missed it. He seems sharper than that.


----------



## millerm277 (Oct 23, 2007)

trtaylor said:


> Me too. I'm surprised millerm2*2*7 missed it. He seems sharper than that.



I missed it at first , but after I noticed it...I decided to leave it, as what he said sarcastically shows the point I've been trying to make.


----------



## Angus (Oct 24, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> I insult you because you're a clown who deserves to be insulted.



"Lighten up, Francis." - Sergeant Hulka (one of my favorite quotes)

I tend to agree with Threecy. Even friends who have been long time Killington passholders - day trippers from the Boston area - always seemed to have the attitude that the cheap season pass was a gimmick and when I've inquired about their feelings about the new prices & management they didn't seemed particularly upset, knowledgeable or particularly interested!


----------



## Geoff (Oct 24, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I just don't understand.
> 
> I just read a post about Mt. Snow's $6 million summer and how it includes a new clock. That's important?
> 
> ...



It is *very* clear that you don't understand.  I've been a Killington season pass holder for 25 years and a property owner in town for 15 years.  I suffer through Killington's awful midwinter product because I like the 7 month ski season.  Killington has always been the king of spring.  They say they're taking that away and cutting back to a 5 month season.  I don't expect the midwinter mayhem to improve under the new ownership since they can't change their customer base.  They have made no moves to fix food and beverage and the former KBL base lodge manager with absolutely no culinary experience is now running F&B.  They've already announced they are using the same snowmaking budget as ASC in their malaise years.  In recent times, snowmaking stopped before Presidents week other than to blow the glacier on superstar and to blow outer limits for an event only to close it with edge-to-edge coverage 2 weeks later.  If that's their snowmaking baseline, I'm underwhelmed.  That was not the Preston Smith snowmaking baseline or what ASC did in the late-90's before they ran into financial problems.

The new management has completely pissed off the town.  The premise for SP Land buying the place was as a real estate deal.  The POWDR Park City people they brought in to operate the resort have made such a mess of town relations that they're not going to be building anything for decades.  What a mess.

I'm faced with the option of having to put my vacation home on the market in a down real estate market.  My property ownership costs are huge with Vermont's Act 68 property tax laws and soaring local labor costs that have jacked up all my other ownership costs.  If you cut 2 months of use from my property, it becomes a very lousy value.   I'm going to wait until spring and see how these people do. So far, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe they know what they're doing.  If SP Land finds they can't develop the resort real estate, they'll find some way to eject these people.


----------



## JimG. (Oct 25, 2007)

Geoff said:


> It is *very* clear that you don't understand.  I've been a Killington season pass holder for 25 years and a property owner in town for 15 years.  I suffer through Killington's awful midwinter product because I like the 7 month ski season.  Killington has always been the king of spring.  They say they're taking that away and cutting back to a 5 month season.  I don't expect the midwinter mayhem to improve under the new ownership since they can't change their customer base.  They have made no moves to fix food and beverage and the former KBL base lodge manager with absolutely no culinary experience is now running F&B.  They've already announced they are using the same snowmaking budget as ASC in their malaise years.  In recent times, snowmaking stopped before Presidents week other than to blow the glacier on superstar and to blow outer limits for an event only to close it with edge-to-edge coverage 2 weeks later.  If that's their snowmaking baseline, I'm underwhelmed.  That was not the Preston Smith snowmaking baseline or what ASC did in the late-90's before they ran into financial problems.
> 
> The new management has completely pissed off the town.  The premise for SP Land buying the place was as a real estate deal.  The POWDR Park City people they brought in to operate the resort have made such a mess of town relations that they're not going to be building anything for decades.  What a mess.
> 
> I'm faced with the option of having to put my vacation home on the market in a down real estate market.  My property ownership costs are huge with Vermont's Act 68 property tax laws and soaring local labor costs that have jacked up all my other ownership costs.  If you cut 2 months of use from my property, it becomes a very lousy value.   I'm going to wait until spring and see how these people do. So far, I've seen nothing that leads me to believe they know what they're doing.  If SP Land finds they can't develop the resort real estate, they'll find some way to eject these people.



Sometimes I stir the pot and rile up the wrong people...I understand your position Geoff and I certainly see why you are upset with the new ownership. Sorry. 

But I ask you...is this problem one that was created by POWDR or did they inherit it? Was there a 7 month season in recent years? I don't think so, in reality it has been a 5 (at most 5 1/2) month season for a few years now.

My position is simplistic (and very annoying to some folks)...POWDR inherited a mess that has been fermenting for years. Folks expected them to come in and throw millions into fixing everything and making K what it was a decade ago. And I think that was a very unrealistic expectation.


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> My position is simplistic (and very annoying to some folks)...POWDR inherited a mess that has been fermenting for years. Folks expected them to come in and throw millions into fixing everything and making K what it was a decade ago. And I think that was a very unrealistic expectation.



Probably the most concise and well stated demonstration of this viewpoint yet. If a decline took 5-10 years, how can it be expected to get fixed immediately?


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> Probably the most concise and well stated demonstration of this viewpoint yet. If a decline took 5-10 years, how can it be expected to get fixed immediately?



No, but they haven't even stopped the decline, really.  Overall, it's been pushed into a nosedive.  Less of pretty much everything combined with higher prices.  Sure there are some positive changes and fixed couple things but overall they are going to have less of a skiing product than ASC....nothing to get excited about.  Will they turn a profit?  A bigger profit?  That remains to be seen.

If you want an example of how to turn a resort around, look to Mt. Snow or SR or Magic.


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2007)

Highway Star said:


> No, but they haven't even stopped the decline, really.  Overall, it's been pushed into a nosedive.  Less of pretty much everything combined with higher prices.  Sure there are some positive changes and fixed couple things but overall they are going to have less of a skiing product than ASC....nothing to get excited about.  Will they turn a profit?  A bigger profit?  That remains to be seen.
> 
> If you want an example of how to turn a resort around, look to Mt. Snow or SR or Magic.



I know where you're coming from HS. I love the "create a buzz"/good PR approach as much as anybody. Nothing gets you pumped for ski season more and it's fun to talk about. The Peak/Boyne and Powdr approaches are about as a complete 180 from each other as you can get. It will be interesting to see the results of each approach. At the end of the day, probably both could be successfully; it's just going to take a lot longer to see the results at Killington. This is fun to watch for sure.


----------



## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> I know where you're coming from HS. I love the "create a buzz"/good PR approach as much as anybody. Nothing gets you pumped for ski season more and it's fun to talk about. The Peak/Boyne and Powdr approaches are about as a complete 180 from each other as you can get. It will be interesting to see the results of each approach. At the end of the day, probably both could be successfully; it's just going to take a lot longer to see the results at Killington. This is fun to watch for sure.



SPLand/Powdr hasn't inherited anything worse than what Peaks, Boyne, and Intrawest have walked into...all of the properties are in serious need of repair...demolition even.  All of these new owners knew what they were walking into and had plenty of opportunity to plan their approach.  Only one new owner has come in with a restrictive operations policy...the rest are willing to spend some money in order to make more...invest in their new assests and invest in the future.  C'mon, Peaks spent more money at Mount Snow than has been spent at Killington...add in what they spent at AT and you've got close to 10M in new investment right out of the gate.  You can't feel any more sorry for SP/Powdr than you should for Boyne, Peaks, or Intrawest.  They've all been dealt similar hands...they're just playing them differently.


----------



## trtaylor (Oct 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> I know where you're coming from HS. I love the "create a buzz"/good PR approach as much as anybody. Nothing gets you pumped for ski season more and it's fun to talk about. The Peak/Boyne and Powdr approaches are about as a complete 180 from each other as you can get. It will be interesting to see the results of each approach. At the end of the day, probably both could be successfully; it's just going to take a lot longer to see the results at Killington. This is fun to watch for sure.



I agree 100%. Will also be a fun business case study for someone 5 years or so out.

Should make for an active AZ forum, too!


----------



## nycskier (Oct 25, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> C'mon, Peaks spent more money at Mount Snow than has been spent at Killington...add in what they spent at AT and you've got close to 10M in new investment right out of the gate.



Not only did they spend more money improving Mount Snow than Powdr did at Killington, they also kept their season pass price in a similar range to last year's ASC A41 pass and are still participating in the ski council discount program.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 25, 2007)

First it was 3 million at Killington, then 3.3, now 5.3, but no one seems to know what they did besides paint a few lifts...  2 million of that was put into the Grand Summit and was slated to be done regardless of who was running the mountain...

So yeah, they haven't done anything in comparison...

I've gotten every press release in the mail from Mount Snow, I didn't see anything about such a touted new clock. If its true, it certainly isn't being marketed, as it shouldn't be.





JimG. said:


> I just don't understand.
> 
> I just read a post about Mt. Snow's $6 million summer and how it includes a new clock. That's important?
> 
> ...


----------



## Greg (Oct 25, 2007)

Newpylong said:


> I've gotten every press release in the mail from Mount Snow, I didn't see anything about such a touted new clock. If its true, it certainly isn't being marketed, as it shouldn't be.



http://news.alpinezone.com/18984/


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## Newpylong (Oct 25, 2007)

Well damn, guess I am wrong. At least we won't miss any AZ meetings? lol.

At least it wasn't the extend of their off-seasons improvements, just the icing on the cake, hah.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Oct 26, 2007)

JimG. said:


> My position is simplistic (and very annoying to some folks)...POWDR inherited a mess that has been fermenting for years.


Most definitely.  There can be no argument with this.



> Folks expected them to come in and throw millions into fixing everything and making K what it was a decade ago. And I think that was a very unrealistic expectation.


This is where you, and others, go wrong.  Except for a few lone voices in the wind, no one is arguing that they should come in and start throwing money around left and right ala ASC with Sugarbush.  Dropping something like $10-15MM (remember, this is still only half of the $28MM ASC dropped into SB, which generated between 1/2 and 1/2 of K-Mart's skier visits) in the first year would be a silly and unrealistic expectation.  

I BEG you, please stop advancing the argument that this is the ONLY or most likely alternative to the current non-program.  It's a useless strawman.  What POWDR has done, first of all, is spend $3.3MM on what amounts almost entirely to maintenance projects.  It seems clear that they take quite a liberal view on what constitutes capital and what constitutes expense dollars.  The $5.3MM figure you fancy mentioning includes $2MM of OWNER FUNDED improvements at the Grand Summit.  It should not and cannot be counted.  

Again, they have made no indications that they have diagnosed the problems with the on-mountain experience and have articulated no plans to resolve those issues.  The $3.3MM they spent is a tiny increase for a hill the size of K-Mart and is less than what Peaks spent at Mt. Snow, which is far, far smaller, in their first year of ownership.  

People say that those complaining simply are whiners who want more for less.   How about complaining about getting a lot less for a lot more.  Don't piss on my face and tel me its raining - which is essentially what you are trying to do.  If the problems with this particular patient have been building for 5-10 years, then POWDR has violated the hippocratic oath in trying to heal it - do no harm.  They are getting closer to killing the patient on the table than fixing what ails it.  And given the hornets nest they've scared up in town with their ill-considered moves and non-moves, it doesn't appear as though Dr. Real Estate is going to be able to come in and bail them out any time soon.

The avg skier might not know right now about the off-season changes many are griping about.  But I'd argue that's because the avg skier hasn't turned his or her mind towards planning their winter vacations yet.  Wait until they do and discover the price increases for lift tickets and especially kids programs along with the limited operating schedule midweek.  From personal experience, a few friends of mine who live in NYC decided in June/July to make the jump up from a share house at Stratton to K-Mart.  When e-mailing back and forth a week ago, they were pretty depressed with all the changes, especially the elimination of the Ski Council voucher program.  They immediately inquired how much the vouchers were for Sugarbush and if it was too late to geMartt in on them.  Bottom line is that the are going to spend a lot fewer dollars and days at K-Mart than planned or what they actually spent at Stratton last year.  They will also be looking elsewhere for a house next year.  

Oh, I forgot.  Killington doesn't want their kind.  It's not like young professionals in their 20s and 30s who currently can't afford a slopeside condo ever get older and have a family and evolve into said demographic.  What silly thinking on my part.


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## Greg (Oct 26, 2007)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Most definitely.  There can be no argument with this.
> 
> 
> This is where you, and others, go wrong.  Except for a few lone voices in the wind, no one is arguing that they should come in and start throwing money around left and right ala ASC with Sugarbush.  Dropping something like $10-15MM (remember, this is still only half of the $28MM ASC dropped into SB, which generated between 1/2 and 1/2 of K-Mart's skier visits) in the first year would be a silly and unrealistic expectation.
> ...



You truly have mastered the art of condescension. :roll: Jim inherently deserves a bit more respect than you've shown here. What exactly is your industry experience again, Tin? You seem to have all the answers and are obviously much smarter than the guys at Powdr. What nobody ever mentions is the fact that Powdr just paid $83.5MM for the joint. That's a full $10MM more than Peak Resorts paid for the Attitash/Snow combo. That's a pretty big initial investment.



> Again, they have made no indications that they have diagnosed the problems with the on-mountain experience and have articulated no plans to resolve those issues.



And exactly how are they supposed to do this without even running the place through a full season? Perhaps they just want to take a more conservative approach to fully evaluate the operation first.


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## JimG. (Oct 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> You truly have mastered the art of condescension. :roll: Jim inherently deserves a bit more respect than you've shown here. What exactly is your industry experience again, Tin? You seem to have all the answers and are obviously much smarter than the guys at Powdr. What nobody ever mentions is the fact that Powdr just paid $83.5MM for the joint. That's a full $10MM more than Peak Resorts paid for the Attitash/Snow combo. That's a pretty big initial investment.
> 
> 
> 
> And exactly how are they supposed to do this without even running the place through a full season? Perhaps they just want to take a more conservative approach to fully evaluate the operation first.



Thanks Greg...I'm not going to get into it with the Tin Man.

We think differently. 

Unlike him, I'm not going to pretend to have any control or say over what POWDR does. They put up the money to buy the place. Tinny and me are nothing more than armchair quarterbacks when it comes to what they do.

So I have no grandiose ideas about what they will or should do. I just want to try to understand their plan. They do have one whether Tinny wants to admit it or not. Apparently what he sees does not suit him. So he shouldn't (if he ever does) ski there. Case closed.

I feel differently. I'll ski there more this year to check out what if anything good happens. That is all.

I really don't need anyone's respect or approval...I'm comfortable with my thought processes. If Tinny thinks I'm simple, so be it. I've always lived by the KISS principle and find I often run rings around those who see the need to complicate matters.

But I do like the comment about pissing on his head and telling him it's raining...alot of my friends at IBM use that phrase. 

Guess all you want...nothing is known until the snow flies.


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## millerm277 (Oct 26, 2007)

Greg said:


> You truly have mastered the art of condescension. :roll: Jim inherently deserves a bit more respect than you've shown here. What exactly is your industry experience again, Tin? You seem to have all the answers and are obviously much smarter than the guys at Powdr. What nobody ever mentions is the fact that Powdr just paid $83.5MM for the joint. That's a full $10MM more than Peak Resorts paid for the Attitash/Snow combo. That's a pretty big initial investment.



Killington alone has more skiable acreage, lifts, skier visits by a sizeable amount over both of those combined, when you add Pico, it's a low price, especially considering the assets Killington has:

Virtually unlimited snowmaking water.
An expansion already planned, partially permitted, and with land leased for the expansion.
Large areas that real estate can be built on with minimal problems, if they were to not piss off the town as they have.

And, I would bet that Killington was much, much more profitable than those two combined. (I don't know Mt. Snow's numbers, but Attitash was losing money).



> And exactly how are they supposed to do this without even running the place through a full season? Perhaps they just want to take a more conservative approach to fully evaluate the operation first.



They say that they need a season to learn the area before they do anything, and then they've gone out and made huge cuts in season length and changed all sorts of other things (prices, operating schedules, etc).



JimG. said:


> Unlike him, I'm not going to pretend to have any control or say over what POWDR does. They put up the money to buy the place. Tinny and me are nothing more than armchair quarterbacks when it comes to what they do.



We do have a bit of control over what they do. That bit of control is probably the only reason why certain things have been changed/reversed. (Skyeship operating schedule is the first example). It's unlikely that our bitching would do something like get them to reverse course, but so far it has managed to get a few things changed, and has been the only reason some things have been brought to light (for better or worse).



> They do have one whether Tinny wants to admit it or not. Apparently what he sees does not suit him. So he shouldn't (if he ever does) ski there. Case closed.



I agree, they do have a plan, but more importantly than whether we like it or not, that plan (at least in my opinion), does not seem to mesh with how eastern resorts work. Is it possible that their plan will work out, and in a few years all will be great and everyone will be happy? Yes. However, to me at least, it seems more likely that it will worsen Killington's downward spiral, and in a few years when they run away, we'll be left with a ski area in much worse condition (financially and mechanically compared to it's competitors) than it is now.



> Guess all you want...nothing is known until the snow flies.



Sure it is:

They've stated that the snowmaking budget is the same as it's been the last few years of ASC disaster.
We know that prices are higher, and that pico and skyeship stage I aren't operating Tuesday and Wednesday.
We know that they are not expecting to open before Nov 16th, or close after April 13th/

Will all be forgotten if we get 300 inches of snow, and it stays cold the entire time? Maybe. 

I think they may have hurt a few too many people at this point for a good season to wash everything away.


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## Tin Woodsman (Oct 27, 2007)

Greg said:


> You truly have mastered the art of condescension. :roll: Jim inherently deserves a bit more respect than you've shown here. What exactly is your industry experience again, Tin? You seem to have all the answers and are obviously much smarter than the guys at Powdr. What nobody ever mentions is the fact that Powdr just paid $83.5MM for the joint. That's a full $10MM more than Peak Resorts paid for the Attitash/Snow combo. That's a pretty big initial investment.


Condescension was neither my intention nor, even on a second reading, the result.  My main point was to expose the strawman case that Jim and others have espoused with respect to investment by POWDR being all or nothing.  Either they can continue with the do-nothing approach this year or the only other choice is to spend massive amounts of money.   That is nonsense.  There are many shades of gray.   Even if they want to observe tings for a year before making major changes (interesting how such time wasn't required on the pricing, employee, base lodge, and lift ops front), there are some targeted, noticeable improvements they could have either made this year or promised to do.  For example, replacing the Sky Peak Quad with a detatch is a no brainer.  Same capacity, but a shortened ride for this critical link between Bear Mtn. and the Basin.  Replacing the current three-headed monster on Snowshed with a 6-pack is a similar no-brainer, and one that minimizes needed infrastructure (removing two useless lifts).  You don't need to do both this summer, but they are both obvious and should be talked about to generate some excitement.  

As for the $83MM they spent - no, I don't give them credit.  Just because you may be able to find some wahoo to loan you money to buy something doesn't mean you get credit for doing so.  There are about a million foreclosed former homeowners these days who will help underline that.  More to the point for a business, the capital they thought they would need to invest in K should have been factored into their purchase price.  If they paid too much, the customers and other stakeholders in K shouldn't have to pay for their irresponsibility.  Would you pay $300K for a house whose closest comp is worth $300K if the one you buy needs $200K of repairs?  I would hope not.  That would be a pretty stupid investment.  

Are these guys really that stupid?  I highly doubt it.  But don't come and cry poor because of the purchase price.  And don't try to front like you need time to evaluate possible improvements when not only have they made a number of drastic changes in their operational and marketing footprint, it is also patently obvious that the village is their #1 priority anyway.


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## tcharron (Oct 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I just don't understand.
> 
> I just read a post about Mt. Snow's $6 million summer and how it includes a new clock. That's important?
> 
> Killington spends $5.3 million and all they get is crap about it. Just maintenance they say. Isn't that an improvement over last year?



Killington:
Vertical Drop:  	 3,050 feet
Trail Acreage: 	1215 skiable acres 
Trail Count: 	200 

Mt Snow:
Vertical Drop:  	 1,700 feet
Trail Acreage: 	590 skiable acres 
Trail Count: 	106 

  One could argue that it would take 12 million to have the same kind of wow figure.

  Not taking sides, just point it out.


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## JimG. (Oct 29, 2007)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Condescension was neither my intention nor, even on a second reading, the result.  My main point was to expose the strawman case that Jim and others have espoused with respect to investment by POWDR being all or nothing.



This is exactly why I gave up on this topic...Tinny, you need to go back and read all my posts, then tell me where I espoused an all or nothing investment scenario. I never did. I have from the beginning said only:

1) That Killington regulars should be patient and loyal to the degree they give the new owners a chance.

2) That I understand why POWDR wants to get some actual skiing time under their belts before planning major changes/upgrades.

3) That I will ski there this year to see what happens.

I never said they shouldn't invest anything, or, as a corollary, that they should bet the house. 

Let's just go to the end game...R.I.P. Killington, may it rest in peace.

You should be a politician...good at putting your words in other people's mouths.


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