# What is your favorite chairlift?



## dblskifanatic (Jul 15, 2021)

Aside from last year, skiers and snowboarders alike come together on a chairlift.  You meet people, learn of some secret stashes, enjoy seeing others ski or snowboard and sight see amongst other things.  People also have their favorite chairlifts  - mine is The Pallavicini Lift at A Basin.  Peru Express going over Area 51 at Keystone is cool too!  Chair 9 at Loveland has incredible views.  The Flyer at Jay Peak is cold as cold can get.  Stairway to Heaven at Kicking Horse is pretty cool as well.  

What is your favorite lift?  Why do you like or not like chairlift rides?

This is a cool video dedicated to the chairlift!


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## urungus (Jul 15, 2021)

Single Chair - MRG
Red Chair - Magic
Madonna 1 - Smugglers Notch
Castle Rock - Sugarbush


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## thebigo (Jul 15, 2021)

Wildcat 4

Nothing else is even close


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## snoseek (Jul 15, 2021)

East: Quad at Wildcat, 4runner at Stowe, mitt double at Cannon for the quiet. Single at MRG

West. Pali Abasin. Chair 10 at Kirkwood.


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## ss20 (Jul 15, 2021)

Gosh...so many options and it depends on the day/conditions.

Spring 50 degree bluebird day in April- Bear Quad at Killington
Mid-winter non-powder day- Castlerock
6pm February sunset in New York Suburbia- Thunder Ridge summit double
Powder day- wherever I'm skiing that day!!!!

As far as "chairlifts" by themselves without considering conditions... MRG single, Stowe Fourrunner, and I've always had a soft-spot for the Stage 1 of the Skyeship Gondola at Killington....always loved taking the twenty minute+ ride from the bottom at 8:10am on a bluebird Sunday, excited for the full day of skiing ahead.


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## Smellytele (Jul 16, 2021)

east - MRG single, Wildcat quad
West - Abasin Pali, Taos Kachina peak lift


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## Hawk (Jul 16, 2021)

Hands down, aiguille du midi cable car.


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## Hawk (Jul 16, 2021)

In the East I would say MRG single or Castlerock
Out West......So many.  Probably the Big Sky Tram.


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## skiur (Jul 16, 2021)

The old south ridge triple at K with the turn.  I loved taking people up it for their first time and seeing their reaction to the turn.


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## ss20 (Jul 16, 2021)

skiur said:


> The old south ridge triple at K with the turn.  I loved taking people up it for their first time and seeing their reaction to the turn.



That was a fun lift.  It was also the most scenic lift at K, imo.  The trees were always frosted in winter snow and on bluebird days it'd glisten with incredible brilliance due to the southern exposure.  It's also the only lift you can ride at K and not see a base area or parking lot if you look back.  Pipe dream was always a pretty quite trail below as well.


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## xlr8r (Jul 16, 2021)

I love lifts but I find it hard to pick favorites.  My favorites tend to fall into two categories.  

Double chairlifts that have a pod to themselves:
Outpost @ Pico
Castlerock @ Sugarbush
Mittersill @ Cannon

And mid 90s Detachable Quads by Poma and Doppelmayr:
Sunapee Express @ Sunapee
South Face @ Okemo
Jordan Bowl, and North Peak @ Sunday River
Flying Bear @ Attitash
Super Bravo, Gatehouse, and Slidebrook @ Sugarbush


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## kingslug (Jul 16, 2021)

Whatever one has a ton of snow under it.


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## raisingarizona (Jul 16, 2021)

Over the years,

Jackson tram was #1 for me 20 years ago, with today’s lines not so much.

Sublet (not sure on the spelling there) quad. My favorite in bounds lines at Jackson were off that chair. Laps are often combined with thunder for the experts or meet your maker to paintbrush area combo. Lots of air time available on the upper mountain for the young hucksters. I’m not that guy anymore but I’m glad I was there when I was. Again, the Jackson shit show keeps me away these days.

Snowbird tram. It accesses everything and that mountain is so good.

Today? Probably the Kachina Peak chair at Taos. It’s awesome and when I was there you may have had to wait for four chairs tops.

Many years ago……the single at MRG. When it’s good it’s real good.

gotta give a shout out to my home hill and the Arizona Chondola. When we are getting hit it has great trees for hot laps and the touring options off the top are massive.


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## mister moose (Jul 16, 2021)

xlr8r said:


> Outpost @ Pico



Outpost when it's not running.
South Ridge when it's not running

Any Poma lift
Bear Trap  at Mt Snow in a snowstorm
Coleman Brook @ Okemo - love the RR crossing
Sunshine Valley Gondola
Jackson Tram


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## 2Planker (Jul 16, 2021)

Cat Quad
White Heat
Castlerock


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## 2planks2coasts (Jul 16, 2021)

As far as chairlifts themselves go, as opposed to the terrain they serve, I like the dramatic views.  Some rides are as scenic in summer as in winter.  Chairs that look like you're heading right for a gigantic cliff face before flying up and over it are fun too.  

Palmer at T-Line, Lincoln at Sugar Bowl, Peak Express at Whistler


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## snoseek (Jul 16, 2021)

2planks2coasts said:


> As far as chairlifts themselves go, as opposed to the terrain they serve, I like the dramatic views.  Some rides are as scenic in summer as in winter.  Chairs that look like you're heading right for a gigantic cliff face before flying up and over it are fun too.
> 
> Palmer at T-Line, Lincoln at Sugar Bowl, Peak Express at Whistler


With that angle I gotta choose the download fir the gunbarrel chair at heavenly. Actually that chair overall is pretty badass.


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## jaytrem (Jul 16, 2021)

Good question.  Might be Powder Gulch at Silver Star.


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## jimk (Jul 16, 2021)

Lots of great chairlifts already mentioned that I have experienced like Pali at A-Basin, Single at MRG, Wildcat Quad, 4Runner at Stowe, 10/Wagonwheel at Kirkwood.  I also have had some great times on 9990 at Park City, Supreme at Alta.  But from a lot of usage in the last half dozen years I gotta say my top fav these days is Mineral Basin at Snowbird.  It's so nice back there on a sunny day in winter or especially spring.  Old skiers never die, they just head to Mineral Basin:


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## deadheadskier (Jul 16, 2021)

East it's Cat Quad and Forerunner.  Both unmatched for available terrain variety and vertical.  Madonna and Single Chair are also awesome, but I prefer a HSQ over Fixed Grip

West it's Palvacin at Abasin or Deep Temerity at Highlands


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 17, 2021)

I always found Slide Brook Express interesting especially over the valley it goes over where you are at the tops of the trees there!


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## Zand (Jul 18, 2021)

I've always liked Madonna I at Smuggs. Has good vert, the visuals going over the 3 cliff sections are fun, and despite all the bitching it's really not THAT long. Ride is just as tolerable as the MRG single.


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## Newpylong (Jul 21, 2021)

Skyeship at K. Where I start and end my day there, it's turn station, and who doesn't like 1200 FPM.


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## mikec142 (Jul 21, 2021)

I guess it depends what you're defining as favorite.  Views?  Terrain serviced?  People watching?  Something else?

For me, I love both Castlerock at Sugarbush and the Single Chair at MRG for the terrain they serve and the people watching.  Slide Brook at Sugarbush is great for the views.  Out west, I really love Sublette at JH for the terrain, people watching, and views.  KT22 at SV is pretty spectacular too for terrain, views, and people watching.

I'm sure I can think of others.


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## x10003q (Jul 21, 2021)

Summit Quad at Whiteface
Straightbrook Quad at Gore
Red at Magic
Any upper mountain chair at Jackson Hole


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## mikec142 (Jul 21, 2021)

x10003q said:


> Summit Quad at Whiteface
> Straightbrook Quad at Gore
> Red at Magic
> Any upper mountain chair at Jackson Hole


I was going to mention Straightbrook.  Great views and terrain.


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## ScottySkis (Jul 21, 2021)

In the east shocking
2 charir lifts in town of Roxbury NY west Cats


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## KustyTheKlown (Jul 21, 2021)

east - magic red and mrg single - I actually got sweet prints of both but haven't had a chance to frame and hang yet. pics below.

west - wildcat at alta. kicking horse gondola. pally at a-bay


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## ss20 (Jul 21, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Skyeship at K. Where I start and end my day there, it's turn station, and who doesn't like 1200 FPM.



Skyeship is fun.  I always liked the 20 minute ride from the bottom to start the day.  Eat a sandwich, get gear on, etc.  Then, out of almost nowhere, you're dead center of Killington, and the fact that you can get anywhere on the hill from the top station.


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## ceo (Jul 22, 2021)

All of my favorite lifts are gone. :-( 
Sugarbush gondola (I barely remember it; I was 6)
Sugarloaf gondola
Original Killington gondola
Burke Mountain Poma
Spillway East
King Pine (#5) T-bar
Cannon Upper T-bars

Well, not all of them.
Cannon Tram
Double Runner West
Bateau (#3) T-bar
MRG single
Slide Brook Express (even though it scares me a little)


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Hands down, aiguille du midi cable car.


Disqualified for improper submission.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2021)

Coolness factor = Single chain (MRG)
Personal reasons = Madonna I (Smuggs)


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## Hawk (Jul 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Disqualified for improper submission.


I know.  That is why I added the MRG Single and Castlerock just below it......and then submitted the Big Sky tram wrongly after that.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 22, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> I actually got sweet prints of both


Did you take the pics & frame?


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## KustyTheKlown (Jul 22, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Did you take the pics & frame?



they actually are drawings or computer graphics, not photos. those images were cut/paste from the website I ordered from (https://www.circlesquarediamond.com/). 

i haven't had the chance to frame and hang mine yet. we're pretty minimal in our apartment and don't have much of anything on the walls. these were intended for my office and then covid happened. now I'm back in 2 days a week but my office is officially 'focus room 2' under our new social distancing plan. so its my office when I am here on weds and Thursdays, but its someone else's office on the days I'm not here. so we were all asked to depersonalize our spaces some, which is a bummer.


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## Newpylong (Jul 23, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Skyeship is fun.  I always liked the 20 minute ride from the bottom to start the day.  Eat a sandwich, get gear on, etc.  Then, out of almost nowhere, you're dead center of Killington, and the fact that you can get anywhere on the hill from the top station.


The view of Skye Peak and the rest that you can see once you crest the pitch on Stage 1 is pretty amazing.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 23, 2021)

yeah I like Skyeship for the reasons mentioned.  Breck Gondola gives you a similar vibe even though it doesn't unload you at any skiable terrain (meaning you still have to take a lift to ski)

For me

East - 4 Runner.  You can run hot laps on all kinds of awesome terrain of that thing.  (never been to the Cat yet)
West - Pali at Abasin So much fun and challenging terrain accessed from that chair. and those views...


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## Smellytele (Jul 25, 2021)

Gondolas are only good for the first ride of the day or after a break. Hate having to take my skis off.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

Smellytele said:


> Gondolas are only good for the first ride of the day or after a break. Hate having to take my skis off.



I dont mind taking skis off at all.

 My issue with gondolas is all too often I believe there's absolutely no reason for them, and they exist primarily as a marketing tool. Many of our eastern gondolas IMHO fall in this category. But there are some places where they really make sense.


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## machski (Jul 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont mind taking skis off at all.
> 
> My issue with gondolas is all too often I believe there's absolutely no reason for them, and they exist primarily as a marketing tool. Many of our eastern gondolas IMHO fall in this category. But there are some places where they really make sense.


Really?  Which ones pray tell.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2021)

Seems to me that all of the New England gondolas serve a four season purpose or night time dining except for maybe the Skyeship at Killington.  That however is almost 2.5 miles long.  I would not want to ride a chairlift that long on a freezing day.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 25, 2021)

machski said:


> Really?  Which ones pray tell.


Without analyzing, but just off the top of my head I'd submit this list.  I realize this is a subjective thing whether you agree with some of these or not, but to my mind none of these seem critically needed, and some of them are thus likely marketing decisions.

Stowe - Pleasant, but not mission critical.
Stowe 2 - Over Easy might be 1000 feet or so long.  We really needed a gondy?  We had the $$ I know that!
Whiteface - Not needed. Now if it went from Cloudsplitter base to near the top I'd be on-board as that's LONG.
Belleayre - This might be the best example of the bunch, it's really a joke.
Gore - Pleasant, but not mission critical parte deux.
Mountain Creek - this one maybe shouldn't count as it's stand-up gondy, but it still seems an odd choice to me.
Stratton - Again, nice to have, but I dont see why you need it. Seems more like a make the aristocrats happy thing.

I know Loon & BW have gondys too, but I've never skied them so I cant speak to whether they're logical or not.

EDIT:  Similarly, over the years when the topic of "unnecessary lifts" comes up, it seems lots of people mention  Chondola, but I've never skied in Maine, so perhaps someone else can comment.


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## thebigo (Jul 25, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Without analyzing, but just off the top of my head I'd submit this list.  I realize this is a subjective thing whether you agree with some of these or not, but to my mind none of these seem critically needed, and some of them are thus likely marketing decisions.
> 
> Stowe - Pleasant, but not mission critical.
> Stowe 2 - Over Easy might be 1000 feet or so long.  We really needed a gondy?  We had the $$ I know that!
> ...


Both NH gondis are necessary for off season wedding business. The loon gondola is ridiculous as a ski lift, especially with an 8 and several hsdq on the property. I haven't skied BW since the gondola went in but given it was a new install, not replacement, and the mountain flowed fine before - I would say it is primarily for summer business.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2021)

Yes, both NH gondolas exist for summer business.  The new BW Gondola also included the new Rosebrook lodge.  Loon has a dining venue at the top of their gondola. 

Stratton has a mountain top restaurant as does Stowe and Killington.  The Chondola at Sunday River as well. 

Skyeship at Killington is just too darn long to be a chair.  

I'm pretty certain the reason Over Easy at Stowe is a Gondola is because it crosses a state highway and there was concern for the potential of skis and other items dropping on cars from a chair.  That's why you bring your gear inside the cabin vs on racks like you normally do riding Gondolas. 

So basically all of the gondolas in New England are about form, not marketing function.  Can't speak for New York.  Never skied those mountains 

You can argue that the ROI isn't worth it on the restaurants / wedding venues those New England gondolas serve. Might be true.   But there is no other realistic option for that strategy than fully enclosed Gondolas or Trams.  Bubble chairs wouldn't cut it.


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## cdskier (Jul 25, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Can't speak for New York.  Never skied those mountains



Belleayre and Gore I would argue are mainly marketing. If these were private mountains not funded by the state, I don't know that there would have been enough ROI to justify gondolas. Gore's original gondola had an entirely different alignment than the current one and went from base to summit. That one I could understand needing to be a gondola. The current one really seems more so they could simply say they still have a gondola after the original was removed.

Whiteface is somewhat more functional I think you can potentially argue. The lift-line for that gondola is a bit rugged and not directly over any ski terrain so in the event of an evac, a gondola makes sense to protect people from the elements as an evac there is going to take longer than from a lift that is actually over ski terrain. Although perhaps there also could have been a different alignment chosen that would have been more over actual ski terrain in which case that argument for a gondola would have been eliminated. Even with Whiteface though, I don't know that a privately owned mountain would have been able to justify the ROI for the gondola.


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## ss20 (Jul 25, 2021)

From a skiers standpoint, nearly zero use for gondolas unless its a transport/access lift as the Skyeship stage 1/2 and Stowe Over Easy are.  10 years ago I would've argued for gondola's on very exposed rides.  Now with heated bubble chairs that's a moot point. 

Stratton's gondola, the gondola at Stowe, and the K1 at Killington are all painful examples of terrain people lap but have to take the skis off each time.  It sucks.  Less sucky at places like Gore where you take the gondola to go to another pod or use the chair to access the same terrain.


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## raisingarizona (Jul 25, 2021)

It takes like two seconds to click out or click in, I don’t get the “I hate taking my skis off” comments.

I think gondolas are sweet on storm days or when winds are ripping.

They are also really sweet for downloading if that’s needed. If there’s a venue at the summit for weddings/events its definitely profitable for the seasons without skiing.

We got a new chondola here last season and the covid aspect definitely kind of sucked.


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## Smellytele (Jul 26, 2021)

raisingarizona said:


> It takes like two seconds to click out or click in, I don’t get the “I hate taking my skis off” comments.
> 
> I think gondolas are sweet on storm days or when winds are ripping.
> 
> ...


Tele skis are a little more than click in click out. Also not a fan of carrying and holding my skis in line.
Unfortunately most times winds are whipping gondolas are on wind hold.
Agree on the downloading if their is an an event at the top.


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## jimk (Jul 26, 2021)

Gondis are fun when I'm in the tourist mode checking out a new ski area/terrain and they can be a nice refuge on harsh days.  I also agree they are most useful as a gateway lift for an initial ride up to terrain and lifts that are better suited for lapping.

There are a couple of instances I can remember off the top of my head where I especially appreciated a gondola:  I was with some out of town friends on a rainy, miserable day at Snowbasin (rare thing in UT).  We had one day to ski the mtn and so we toughed it out for about 6 hours and the Needles gondola (2300' vertical) along with modern ski clothing were the reasons why we hung in there and still had a good time.  Another time I was at Beaver Creek, CO and caught a 1+ foot storm on a Tuesday in late February 2017 when the snow kept falling lightly all day. In the spirit of the old saying “Never leave good snow to find good snow,” I hung around the Centennial chondola for six or seven runs. Even though it was in plain view of the base village, I was one of the very few people having a blast tracking out single black diamond Helmut’s trail while riding empty chondola cars to escape the elements between each powder run.
Helmut's trail and Beaver Creek chondola the day after aforementioned storm, still good:


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## Dickc (Jul 26, 2021)

I did some night skiing at Sunday River with my adult kids, and on one particular night it was a bit breezy, and COLD.  We opted for the Gondola cars vs the chairs as it was THAT COLD.  We noted that the chair loading area had nicely groomed snow with no tracks, so we asked the attendant on the next run if anyone was riding chairs.  He said no, and commented that he thought we were the only skiers out.  We were a little chilly, so we skied off the the condo after that run.  Noted a half hour later they had shut sown early.


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## Hawk (Jul 26, 2021)

There have been many New England days that I have skied a gondola and said to myself thank god.  I don't know about you but not freezing my ass off in sub zero windy days is worth any inconveniences with taking off my skis.  I have spent days at Stowe lapping the Gondi for just that reason.  Nope not a marketing scheme to me at all.


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## machski (Jul 26, 2021)

thebigo said:


> Both NH gondis are necessary for off season wedding business. The loon gondola is ridiculous as a ski lift, especially with an 8 and several hsdq on the property. I haven't skied BW since the gondola went in but given it was a new install, not replacement, and the mountain flowed fine before - I would say it is primarily for summer business.


Because of the small cabin at Loon.  If they follow to plan, that should be upgraded towards 2030 too to a much larger box.

Stowe pleasant but not mission critical is funny.  They onlyhave the CliffHouse restaurant up there, perhaps the most upscale on mountain dining facility in the East.  I'd say that venue alone necessitates a Gondi.  And the Gondi is currently Stowe's biggest draw in the summer to the hill itself anyway.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 26, 2021)

Like th


BenedictGomez said:


> But there are some places where they really make sense.


Like the gondola from the center of town to Peak 8 in Breckenridge.


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## dblskifanatic (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Seems to me that all of the New England gondolas serve a four season purpose or night time dining except for maybe the Skyeship at Killington.  That however is almost 2.5 miles long.  I would not want to ride a chairlift that long on a freezing day.



That gondola makes sense as well - I have been on it and on a cold day it would suck to go that far.


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## xlr8r (Jul 26, 2021)

Over Easy at Stowe has to be a gondola and would not work as a chairlift.  This is because there is no parking over at Spruce.  So the Gondola is a family friendly way to bring kids, beginners, equipment, etc from the Mansfield parking lot over to Spruce where the all the Lessons and Kid programs are located.


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## NYDB (Jul 26, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> ......Stratton has a mountain top restaurant.................


not really


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## Harvey (Jul 26, 2021)

I think Hitler made the point about Whiteface: The gondi wind argument is (somewhat) moot because the gondi are the first to close in the wind. I say somewhat because I suppose their is some amount of wind that could make YOU cold that wouldn't shut it down.

I do think the gondi at Gore is good addition to the mountain. These comments about "the gondi should go to the top" (Gore, WF) make me chuckle Would that lift EVER spin at WF?


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 26, 2021)

jimk said:


> In the spirit of the old saying “Never leave good snow to find good snow,”


I've actually never heard that before, but I like it.  I can think of times in my life when that was so true, I just assumed the entire mountain would be great & I left an area only to go to an area with suboptimal conditions.


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## ss20 (Jul 26, 2021)

NY DirtBag said:


> not really



Yeah I don't think there's anything up there besides a glorified snack bar?

I was shocked when Stratton upgraded that POS gondola a few years ago with new cabins, new top terminal, and (I believe) some new equipment iirc.  Now it's even worse in the wind.  Honestly that gondola and Loon's gondola are the ones in the East that would most benefit to becoming bubble chairs.....and both mountains put a bunch of $$$$ into them.  Still scratching my head on that one, especially given the fact both mountains cater to a demographic that would absolutely eat up the novelty of bubble chairs.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2021)

Honestly it just comes down to gondolas offering better weather protection than bubble chairs for four season use.   It's not about ski season.

Perhaps Stratton and Loon have plans to upgrade their summit lodges.  Both probably sell a fair amount of scenic rides summer and fall as well as sell mountain top wedding ceremony experiences.  

Without seeing ROI numbers it's hard to say whether the investments they have made make sense over installing chairlifts instead


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## NYDB (Jul 26, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Yeah I don't think there's anything up there besides a glorified snack bar?
> 
> I was shocked when Stratton upgraded that POS gondola a few years ago with new cabins, new top terminal, and (I believe) some new equipment iirc.  Now it's even worse in the wind.  Honestly that gondola and Loon's gondola are the ones in the East that would most benefit to becoming bubble chairs.....and both mountains put a bunch of $$$$ into them.  Still scratching my head on that one, especially given the fact both mountains cater to a demographic that would absolutely eat up the novelty of bubble chairs.


I‘m Sure Stratton will see some cap X love from Alterra in the next 5-10, just based on their clientele As you say.
An actual peak restaurant like K maybe  They already have a wedding venue, not sure if they need another?  I thought the kids don’t get married as much these days.
.  Replace ursa with a bubble 6.  Lower the towers on the gondola if possible. Maybe rebuild whatever is left of Ursa and run it at kidderbrook.


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## machski (Jul 27, 2021)

Loon does quite a steady business in the summer off their Gondola.  Granted the Summit Cafe is kind of small and nothing fancy.  I think they plan to redo it a bit, but the summit there will never support anything much bigger than the current Cafe's footprint.  They also get some downhill traffic on the Gondi in the winter.  They have a dedicated snowshoe trail to the Gondi summit but they require pure snowshoes to download downhill.  Loon has been synonymous with a Gondola since day 1 pretty much.  The plan is to put a new one in at the tail end of their current 2030 Flight path, not replace with a chair.  Kanc8 and possibly North and South will be bubble chairs.  We know Kanc8 definitely will be.


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## machski (Jul 27, 2021)

Favorite lifts for me are ones used lightly but access really nice terrain.  Mittersill Double and Oz Quad are two lifts I really like for this.  A definite soft spot for MRG single too, though it doesn't fall in the lightly ridden category.

Out west, we all know signature lifts like JHMR's Tram etc that access killer terrain.  Again, I like the lessor used lifts that do the same.  Deep Temerity at AH, Challenger at BS, Silverado and Granite Chief at Squaw, Chair 22 and 23 at Mammoth, Northwest Express at Bachelor, etc.  Chair 23 gets a nod for unique given the summit bunker terminal and arrival "tunnel" the chair enters at the top.  Quite unique for sure.


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## mikec142 (Jul 27, 2021)

Chiming in regarding gondolas...The one at Gore replaced the old one which was tiny and terrifying.  The old one had some sections that were really, really high.  That said, I think the Gore gondola is important.  It can get brutally cold and windy at Gore and while I'm pretty used to skiing in that weather, it's nice to be able to take a break from the elements without taking a break from skiing.  When my kids were younger, there was the occasional day where it was so cold at Sugarbush/MRG that we would head over to Stowe so we could still ski, but have some protection.  Now that my kids are in their late teens, I'm less concerned.

Speaking more generally about gondolas, I do like them when it's wet out.  I also like them as a base to the top ride.  Think Aspen.  On our recent trip to Aspen, I don't think I rode the gondola once other than to get to the top at the beginning of the day.  But it's a great way to get started and get your self set for the day...boots adjusted, etc.

I don't mind taking my skis off, but I do mind my gloves getting wet while holding my skis.


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## x10003q (Jul 27, 2021)

Stratton does not have any septic at the top. This is why there is no Food/Bev at the top. The one septic field they had at the top failed about 5 years ago. They would need a pipe to bring the waste down the mountain. Pre Alterra, I was told they are never going to have the money for the pipe. The Hubert Haus has been a snack bar/warming hut with no running water for 20 plus years.

The Whiteface gondola was a big waste of money, but who cares, its only NYS free money. There are no green trails off the top and there is only 1 intermediate trail that can get crazy as it turns into an icy race track. Who builds a gondola that does not serve at least one green trail at an Eastern ski area? New skiers and little kids love gondolas but cannot use the one at WF. There is some brilliant marketing. The black trails off the gondola basically end at the mid mountain lodge and are served by the Little WF double. Below the lodge there is a long, boring runout that most advanced skiers usually do not want to yoyo.  ORDA basically built a gondola that serves nobody. The reason for the WF gondola was that the ORDA Board, which is mostly filled with Lake Placid members, got pissed that Gore was getting a new Gondola replacement in 1999. Eventually, this type of decision making led to the insane decision to put a gondola on Belleayre.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 27, 2021)

x10003q said:


> The Whiteface gondola was a big waste of money, but who cares, its only NYS free money. There are no green trails off the top and there is only* 1 intermediate trail that can get crazy as it turns into an icy race track.* Who builds a gondola that does not serve at least one green trail at an Eastern ski area?



My submission for most dangerous eastern trail per square foot!


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## raisingarizona (Jul 27, 2021)

A couple more I’ve thought of….

the north face t-bar at crested butte. You have to lap two other chairs to return to the t from the north face terrain but that t-bar gets you to some of Colorados best in bounds terrain for technical steep skiing.

the gold hill chair at telluride. You can access the majority of tellurides steep stuff from that chair as well as some very cool hike to terrain and of course, the legendary side country of bear creek canyon.


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## JimG. (Jul 27, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Less sucky at places like Gore where you take the gondola to go to another pod or use the chair to access the same terrain.


This works out great because Gore is so spread out. I use that gondi once or at most twice a day and many days never.


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## jaytrem (Jul 27, 2021)

When I was at Whiteface in the summer the gondola was doing rather good business.  Always figured it was more of a tourist lift than a good for skiing lift.  $25 or $19 for kids/seniors.  Figured 9 hours a day and $22 per person on average.  Just 25 people per hour will get you about $5000 a day, and that seems kinda low from what I've seen.  If they're open around 100 days that $500k.  Not too bad and I bet it's really double that.


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## Harvey (Jul 27, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Less sucky at places like Gore



New marketing slogan?

"Our gondola is less sucky!"


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## ss20 (Jul 27, 2021)

JimG. said:


> This works out great because Gore is so spread out. I use that gondi once or at most twice a day and many days never.



Exactly.  But you know as a midweek K skier if Canyon isn't running "lapping" the K1 sucks.


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## ss20 (Jul 27, 2021)

x10003q said:


> Stratton does not have any septic at the top. This is why there is no Food/Bev at the top. The one septic field they had at the top failed about 5 years ago. They would need a pipe to bring the waste down the mountain. Pre Alterra, I was told they are never going to have the money for the pipe. The Hubert Haus has been a snack bar/warming hut with no running water for 20 plus years.



That's very interesting!  I don't mean to question your source but I'm curious why they wouldn't run a sewage pipe down from the top.  Killington just put one down Flume (iirc) from the top a dozen-ish years ago when the new Peak Lodge went in.  That's a much more challenging place to lay pipe than down something like Standard.  

I always thought Stratton never had a real summit lodge simply because they have zero room up there.


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## JimG. (Jul 27, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Exactly.  But you know as a midweek K skier if Canyon isn't running "lapping" the K1 sucks.


I ride it at lunch to get to the summit. Otherwise I avoid it. 

I think the comparison to the way Gore is set up is accurate.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2021)

Absent from this thread so far I believe

Bear Mountain Quad at Killington.

  Outer Limits at one point was the indisputable most famous ski trail in the East.   Perhaps still is, but the Bear luster is no longer what it was when I was a kid skiing K frequently in the 80s and 90s.  I used to hardly ever leave Bear back then.  

Still remains a great chair for the terrain it accesses plus watching good skiers rip an incredible bump run.


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## ss20 (Jul 27, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Absent from this thread so far I believe
> 
> Bear Mountain Quad at Killington.
> 
> ...



Yes!  When all the trees and trails are open over there Bear is a hard place to leave!

OL will always be my favorite trail.  Too many amazing memories of sunshine, bumps, beers, and music.


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## abc (Jul 27, 2021)

As far as I'm concern, a chair is just the means to an end.

So anywhere there's good terrain is my favorite chair. Some that comes to mind are, 

Powder Seeker in Big Sky: fast chair to access a wide bowl on both side, always has good condition
Challenger: it just so happen I know a few hidden spots by that chair.

Well, too many to list...


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## x10003q (Jul 28, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> When I was at Whiteface in the summer the gondola was doing rather good business.  Always figured it was more of a tourist lift than a good for skiing lift.  $25 or $19 for kids/seniors.  Figured 9 hours a day and $22 per person on average.  Just 25 people per hour will get you about $5000 a day, and that seems kinda low from what I've seen.  If they're open around 100 days that $500k.  Not too bad and I bet it's really double that.


The WF gondola is very popular in the summer. It is open from July 2 - Oct 12 (it is closed for 5 days inside those date) from 830am to 530pm. The  2019-2020 ORDA report says there were 41,976 rides for revenue of $882,648. At the less promoted Gore, there were only 12,313 rides and $192, 921 in revenue. Belleayre was even worse at 5,983 and $80,902 in revenue.



			https://orda.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/03/annreport19-20ADA.pdf


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## flakeydog (Jul 28, 2021)

Shout out to Schlasman double at Bridger Bowl.  Lift served backcountry access (transceiver still req'd).  Beep in to ride up the lift, make your own way down.  No markings, signage, or cut trails, just a lift plunked down in what was previously out of bounds.  Honorable mention to the Headwaters double at Moonlight Basin (now Big Sky).  Great dropping off point to get to the Headwaters area or even back to Big Sky via A-Z chutes.


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## Newpylong (Jul 28, 2021)

ss20 said:


> Exactly.  But you know as a midweek K skier if Canyon isn't running "lapping" the K1 sucks.



It's just as fast to ski to the bottom out of the Canyon mid-week and take K1 to the top and back into the Canyon vs riding the the quad. It's not a time thing, but just a pain if you don't like taking your board(s) off.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2021)

Harvey said:


> New marketing slogan?
> 
> "Our gondola is less sucky!"



This is not a smart time to be sexy anyway!


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 28, 2021)

x10003q said:


> The  2019-2020 ORDA report says there were 41,976 rides for revenue of $882,648. At the less promoted Gore, there were only 12,313 rides and $192, 921 in revenue. Belleayre was even worse at 5,983 and $80,902 in revenue.



What were the corresponding expenses?


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## machski (Jul 28, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Absent from this thread so far I believe
> 
> Bear Mountain Quad at Killington.
> 
> ...


Bear started shedding its luster when they shut down Devil's Fiddle Quad IMHO.  Two quads up that peak made it a magnet (not to mention the terrain) and that was prior to the glades showing up on map.  But then again, White Heat at SR used to be almost as big a draw and THE lift to be on there.  When bumps ruled the expert skiing world.


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## x10003q (Jul 29, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> What were the corresponding expenses?


Great question. 
Usually it is not broken out. I guess if you went to Lake Placid/ORDA Hdqtrs you could get your hands on the data.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 29, 2021)

I'd have to imagine Whiteface is making more than enough that all 3 summer operations are in the black.   if you break it down by resort, Whiteface is definitely making a profit, Gore might be, and Belleayrae is without a doubt in the red.


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## Newpylong (Jul 29, 2021)

machski said:


> Bear started shedding its luster when they shut down Devil's Fiddle Quad IMHO.  Two quads up that peak made it a magnet (not to mention the terrain) and that was prior to the glades showing up on map.  But then again, White Heat at SR used to be almost as big a draw and THE lift to be on there.  When bumps ruled the expert skiing world.



The removal of DF had very little if anything to do with it. The quad ran once or twice a season if at all many years when it was in place. The removal of Northeast Passage played more of a role than that as no one is now being placed in the East Basin from that base lodge on busy days.

The real culprit is simply that as the demographic grew older that Bear attracted, the numbers simply fell. If they were still in their 20s OL would still be a beehive like it was.

The parks have brought a lot of the traffic back and the Bear Redevelopment should tip it over the top beyond what it ever was.


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 29, 2021)

There is a lot of traffic at Bear now.  Maybe its not what it was in the early '90s, but neither is the entire resort.  On the weekends its border line dangerous coming down lower wildfire or lower Skyeburst.  The line for the high speed lift is usually huge and even the bear quad will get a bit of a line now that the snowshed crossover is open back into Needles.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2021)

Maybe in the later years the Fiddle quad ran that infrequently, but not during the 80s and into the 90s.   The lift infrastructure sucked elsewhere on the mountain.  You had three Quad chairs getting out of Bear.  The rest of the mountain had much less capacity for the terrain it served. 

 I'd say the big shift of traffic away from Bear to the Basin side was mainly due to the development of better lifts.  First with Superstar Quad, then Canyon and finally K1.   The closing of Northeast Passage certainly impacted things to an extent as well, but I'd say it was mainly lift improvements in the Basin that caused the big shift.


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## nhskier1969 (Jul 29, 2021)

To me it depends on terrain, views, vertical.  The being said.  I like the tram at Cannon, great vertical, awesome views, can access alot of the man.  Out west would be Silver queen Gondola, awesome terrain, can lap 3400 vertical, get 34000 vertical in a half day.  Views are awesome too.
Most interesting lift based on weather.  The Cirque at Snowmass on a zero visibility day.


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## Newpylong (Jul 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe in the later years the Fiddle quad ran that infrequently, but not during the 80s and into the 90s.   The lift infrastructure sucked elsewhere on the mountain.  You had three Quad chairs getting out of Bear.  The rest of the mountain had much less capacity for the terrain it served.
> 
> I'd say the big shift of traffic away from Bear to the Basin side was mainly due to the development of better lifts.  First with Superstar Quad, then Canyon and finally K1.   The closing of Northeast Passage certainly impacted things to an extent as well, but I'd say it was mainly lift improvements in the Basin that caused the big shift.



Yes but there were the numbers to warrant running the chair then. It's infrequent use and ultimate removal was a result of less skier visits, not the cause. They aren't going to remove a lift that is providing substantial uphill capacity.

I look forward to that side getting some TLC in the near future.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 29, 2021)

We are in agreement on why it was removed.  The last 4-5 years didn't have the traffic to support the lift.

All I'm saying is I feel the primary reason that Bear Mountain traffic nosedived is lift improvements elsewhere on the mountain.  If no SS or Canyon were added, Bear would probably have remained busy enough to keep the DF quad going.


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## ss20 (Jul 29, 2021)

deadheadskier said:


> We are in agreement on why it was removed.  The last 4-5 years didn't have the traffic to support the lift.
> 
> All I'm saying is I feel the primary reason that Bear Mountain traffic nosedived is lift improvements elsewhere on the mountain.  If no SS or Canyon were added, Bear would probably have remained busy enough to keep the DF quad going.



I agree with that.  I was not around for it but I hear that when Canyon was added it was a game-changer.


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## thebigo (Jul 29, 2021)

Had the cheap ASC pass when I was an undergrad, it was something around $350. Saturdays would get stupid crowded, I remember parking at skyeship and then skiing SRT and DFQ midday to avoid the crowds. Both would be ski on while every other lift would have a serious line. Needles would also occasionally be ski on with a massive line for stage 2.


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## Newpylong (Jul 29, 2021)

Couldn't be that ASC Bronze pass. Still have one around somewhere.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

x10003q said:


> Great question.
> Usually it is not broken out. I guess if you went to Lake Placid/ORDA Hdqtrs you could get your hands on the data.



I know, it was a rhetorical question.  ORDA always gives revenue, but never gives the corresponding expenses, which, for anyone who works in finance is a hysterical thing.  All but meaningless.  And good look finding it, you'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body easier than finding useful info the way ORDA comingles & makes parsing out its' financials, which is clearly intentional (at least it was that way several years back the last time I checked).


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## urungus (Jul 31, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know, it was a rhetorical question.  ORDA always gives revenue, but never gives the corresponding expenses, which, for anyone who works in finance is a hysterical thing.  All but meaningless.  And good look finding it, you'll find Jimmy Hoffa's body easier than finding useful info the way ORDA comingles & makes parsing out its' financials, which is clearly intentional (at least it was that way several years back the last time I checked).



Also - There is the revenue from gondola rides in the summer that gets reported, but how do you account for the proportion of winter lift ticket and season pass revenue that should be credited to the gondola ? I guess if there are rfid gates on each lift you could calculate the percentage of rides taken on the gondola vs the rest of the lifts.


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## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2021)

urungus said:


> Also - There is the revenue from gondola rides in the summer that gets reported, but how do you account for the proportion of winter lift ticket and season pass revenue that should be credited to the gondola ? I guess *if there are rfid gates on each lift you could calculate the percentage of rides taken on the gondola vs the rest of the lifts.*



That would be a useful piece for sure.  But it's just funny how ORDA always tries to play "hide the potato" from New York State residents, which de facto tells you what a sucking cash hole it is.  Whiteface probably makes money, Belleayre definitely loses money, and I feel pretty sure Gore likely loses money too with virtually no avenues for ancillary revenue.


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## Harvey (Aug 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whiteface probably makes money, Belleayre definitely loses money, and I feel pretty sure Gore likely loses money too with virtually no avenues for ancillary revenue.



What do you base this on?


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## Newpylong (Aug 2, 2021)

I think the assumptions are sound based on the stated revenues if you spitball operating costs.


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## ne_skier (Aug 2, 2021)

The Devil's Fiddle lift made sense if you think about the context of the times. When it was installed, it was needed as a way to get skiers from Northeast Passage and the future Parker's Gore to the main mountain efficiently so they didn't overcrowd the then-Bear Mountain Triple. Once Parker's Gore was canceled and Northeast Passage was abandoned, it left a weirdly placed backup lift that only directly serviced two or so trails. The Skye Peak Express was the nail in the coffin for Devil's Fiddle, once the slow, cold fixed-grip was replaced with a detachable, traffic on the Bear Mountain lifts in general decreased and management figured it wasn't worth the money to get it inspected and keep maintaining it just for it to run a couple of days a season.


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## ne_skier (Aug 2, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> That would be a useful piece for sure.  But it's just funny how ORDA always tries to play "hide the potato" from New York State residents, which de facto tells you what a sucking cash hole it is.  Whiteface probably makes money, Belleayre definitely loses money, and I feel pretty sure Gore likely loses money too with virtually no avenues for ancillary revenue.


Read Lazlo Vajtay's post on NY Ski Blog about the Belleayre situation, its 8 years old yet everything stands true today. ORDA today as far as Belleayre goes has found a way to dump money into it while simultaneously not giving a shit. Within 5 years we got a shiny new gondola, a new beginner lift and a new Discovery lodge, yet there are still multiple trails on the mountain that are essentially abandoned, lifts no longer open on time, employee morale is at a serious low, staff shortages, zero consistency or haste in foodservice, the list goes on. But hey, there's no such thing as a serious problem when you're paying for them with someone else's money. They could lose every one of their skiers to Hunter or Platty and wouldn't lose a cent of state funding.


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## machski (Aug 3, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> The Devil's Fiddle lift made sense if you think about the context of the times. When it was installed, it was needed as a way to get skiers from Northeast Passage and the future Parker's Gore to the main mountain efficiently so they didn't overcrowd the then-Bear Mountain Triple. Once Parker's Gore was canceled and Northeast Passage was abandoned, it left a weirdly placed backup lift that only directly serviced two or so trails. The Skye Peak Express was the nail in the coffin for Devil's Fiddle, once the slow, cold fixed-grip was replaced with a detachable, traffic on the Bear Mountain lifts in general decreased and management figured it wasn't worth the money to get it inspected and keep maintaining it just for it to run a couple of days a season.


Skye Peak Express was badly needed for a long time.  I think the current generation only spends a bit of time at Bear and the HSQ link back is a welcome upgrade.  Devil's Fiddle Quad was also doomed as soon as they abandoned making snow on the Fiddle.  Wasn't much point left to that lift and as you said, no connection to the planned Parker's Gore or even early day traffic out of Northeast Passage base.  Fiddle Quad was handy for that, first lift you hit coming off Northeast Passage if you started over there.


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## Harvey (Aug 3, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Read Lazlo Vajtay's post on NY Ski Blog about the Belleayre situation, its 8 years old yet everything stands true today. ORDA today as far as Belleayre goes has found a way to dump money into it while simultaneously not giving a shit. Within 5 years we got a shiny new gondola, a new beginner lift and a new Discovery lodge, yet there are still multiple trails on the mountain that are essentially abandoned, lifts no longer open on time, employee morale is at a serious low, staff shortages, zero consistency or haste in foodservice, the list goes on. But hey, there's no such thing as a serious problem when you're paying for them with someone else's money. They could lose every one of their skiers to Hunter or Platty and wouldn't lose a cent of state funding.



Thanks for reading.

The gondola... if you think about the timing, it was announced and built very quickly.  Something like that would usually get significant build up.  There's a back story there, I've heard some credible rumors, but they are rumors so I won't repeat them.

Regarding Gore/WF/Belle "profitability"... to get anywhere close to that for any of the three, you've got to remove capex, which is kind of cheating.  Government programs aren't usually graded in that way. The horse is out of the barn at least in the Adk. All the private areas are gone. Without Gore and WF you'd have no (little) skiing. It comes down to do you want skiing and the associated economic activity there.

Yea yea you could change the constitution.  For my own selfish, I love not having slopeside condos at those areas.


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## ne_skier (Aug 3, 2021)

Harvey said:


> The gondola... if you think about the timing, it was announced and built very quickly.  Something like that would usually gets significant build up.  There's a back story there, I've heard some credible rumors, but they are rumors so I won't repeat them.


What I had heard on the Storm Skiing Podcast was that the private developer brought in to do the Highmount expansion wasn't thrilled that the state hadn't choked up the money needed to expand, so instead they decided to appease him by spending less money on a gondola that they would put as close to Highmount as possible. The threats are likely just a rumor, but otherwise, it makes sense, the proposals I've seen would have the gondola dead center in the expanded resort


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## x10003q (Aug 3, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Read Lazlo Vajtay's post on NY Ski Blog about the Belleayre situation, its 8 years old yet everything stands true today.


You need to re-read the June 25, 2013, NYS Blog post. All the fears of a supersized Belleayre have never materialized. Just as I predicted 8 years ago.
1. Since 2013, NYS has not spent anywhere near the mentioned $74million at Belleayre.
2. Highmount Ski Area remains closed and unconnected to Belleayre. Most of us will be long gone before Highmount is part of Belleayre.
3. The developers still have not broken ground on any of the *approved* housing proposals around Belleayre and Highmount.
Also, Plattekill seems to be thriving. Maybe ORDA taking over Belleayre has helped Plattekill? Maybe we need an 8 years later update from Lazlo. Plattekill seems much busier in recent seasons vs 8 years ago.


ne_skier said:


> ORDA today as far as Belleayre goes has found a way to dump money into it while simultaneously not giving a shit. Within 5 years we got a shiny new gondola, a new beginner lift and a new Discovery lodge, yet there are still multiple trails on the mountain that are essentially abandoned, lifts no longer open on time, employee morale is at a serious low, staff shortages, zero consistency or haste in foodservice, the list goes on. But hey, there's no such thing as a serious problem when you're paying for them with someone else's money. They could lose every one of their skiers to Hunter or Platty and wouldn't lose a cent of state funding.


There was a full vertical HSQ in the Aug, 2015 Belleayre UMP, not a gondola. The gondola was an unplanned Gov Cuomo special. It was a waste of money that somebody got built in 2018 thru Cuomo. ORDA set the stage for the Belleayre Gondola by adding a Gondola on WF. Now all 3 NYS ski areas have a gondola, whether they need one or not. There was a 2 stage gondola on the 2007 Belleayre UMP wish list Master Plan Map. The second stage was to replace the Tomahawk lift.

Replacing the two 40 year old beginner doubles with more a more reliable and cheaper to operate quad is cost of doing business as is rebuilding the 50 year old Discovery Lodge. Are we to assume that Belleayre should never be updated?

As we all know, NYS owns/pays and ORDA operates Belleayre/Gore/WF. This will never change.
FYI - ORDA just spent $2.9 million on a gondola with a 200 foot vertical at the Lake Placid Olympic Jumping Complex.


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## ne_skier (Aug 3, 2021)

I'm not disagreeing with what you have to say, and aside from the full-vertical lift being an 8 passenger gondola I think these projects made sense and were worthwhile. I just think there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done on the mountain that doesn't require a million-dollar paycheck from Albany. The Cathedral Brook, Tomahawk Liftline, Cayuga, and from what I've heard Dreamcatcher runs are all in some state of abandonment due to nothing other than pure laziness from management. How hard is it to get someone up there to clear brush and saw up fallen trees? The run under the upper Tomahawk liftline, albeit clear of 8-foot tall bushes, has the potential to be among the toughest and most interesting runs in the Catskills. Any privately owned resort would have taken care of these things because unlike Belleayre they have a profit incentive. When you get government funding to pay for what sales can't pay for, it isn't a problem when these things aren't addressed.


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## ss20 (Aug 3, 2021)

machski said:


> Skye Peak Express was badly needed for a long time.  I think the current generation only spends a bit of time at Bear and the HSQ link back is a welcome upgrade.  Devil's Fiddle Quad was also doomed as soon as they abandoned making snow on the Fiddle.  Wasn't much point left to that lift and as you said, no connection to the planned Parker's Gore or even early day traffic out of Northeast Passage base.  Fiddle Quad was handy for that, first lift you hit coming off Northeast Passage if you started over there.



IIRC they made snow on the Fiddle even after the lift was removed.  I want to say they last made snow on the trail in 2009 or 2010?  @Newpylong or @mister moose could probably answer better.


And yes, the Skye Peak Express was looooooong overdue.


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## machski (Aug 4, 2021)

ss20 said:


> IIRC they made snow on the Fiddle even after the lift was removed.  I want to say they last made snow on the trail in 2009 or 2010?  @Newpylong or @mister moose could probably answer better.
> 
> 
> And yes, the Skye Peak Express was looooooong overdue.


Yes, and there have been rumors they would make snow the last few years but have not.  I believe the line has fallen into disrepair now so unsure they could make snow along the entire length at least without some summer maintenance.  Regardless, the traffic on that side had wained.  Had Northeast Passage survived, that may have been reason enough to keep Fiddle chair.  Without that base feed, zero reason.


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## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2021)

Yes, from my notes the last year they made snow on the Fiddle was 2010-2011 and then they blew the line up when charging several times. My contacts say the line is inoperable currently. It's also pretty far back in the wood line by now with no access to the hydrants. As you can guess, that is a tough line to work on and should be replaced when the Bear Redevelopment moves forward (eventually).


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## ss20 (Aug 4, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Yes, from my notes the last year they made snow on the Fiddle was 2010-2011 and then they blew the line up when charging several times. My contacts say the line is inoperable currently. It's also pretty far back in the wood line by now with no access to the hydrants. As you can guess, that is a tough line to work on and should be replaced when the Bear Redevelopment moves forward (eventually).



@Newpylong  that's vert interesting they plan on replacing the line when the new Bear lodge goes in.

Out of curiosity...any idea what year the pipes on the Fiddle are compared to those on the rest of Bear?  I see those old in-house K2000/3000 "tower" guns all over that side of the hill so I'm imagining there's never been much pipe replacement over there.  Did Devil's Fiddle's pipes just age poorly compared to other early 80s K pipes or is another factor?  They make snow on OL 4+ times a year (many more this year) and never seem to have any issues.  Same with Skyeburst, GE, Dreamaker, etc.


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## skiur (Aug 4, 2021)

Bear definitely seems to have a lot more of snowmaking pipe blow outs than compared to the rest of K.


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## ss20 (Aug 4, 2021)

skiur said:


> Bear definitely seems to have a lot more of snowmaking pipe blow outs than compared to the rest of K.



Very true I've seen more there than any other part of K.  Rumor is that's some of the lowest quality pipe on the hill.


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## urungus (Aug 12, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Regarding Gore/WF/Belle "profitability"... to get anywhere close to that for any of the three, you've got to remove capex, which is kind of cheating.  Government programs aren't usually graded in that way. The horse is out of the barn at least in the Adk. All the private areas are gone. Without Gore and WF you'd have no (little) skiing. It comes down to do you want skiing and the associated economic activity there.


Those private areas might not be gone if they didn’t have to compete with the state‘s bottomless pockets of taxpayer money.


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## Harvey (Aug 12, 2021)

urungus said:


> Those private areas might not be gone if they didn’t have to compete with the state‘s bottomless pockets of taxpayer money.


Fact.

Some of the tactics were quite ruthless too.

And some were not that long ago.  Before ORDA took over Belleayre they would dump a huge volume of free tickets into the marketplace.

Imagine how this would be received by other ski areas in the Catskills who were funding those loses with their tax payments.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 12, 2021)

Harvey said:


> Fact.
> 
> Some of the tactics were quite ruthless too.
> 
> ...


I remember about dossen years ago they bell did it several times a season


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## Riverveteran (Aug 16, 2021)

White Heat


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