# Spruce Triple - Sunday River, ME



## WoodCore (Jul 12, 2016)

This isn't good! http://sundayriver.com/news


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## drjeff (Jul 12, 2016)

And the issues with a Boyne operated lift continues.... Not a good thing at all!!


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## WJenness (Jul 12, 2016)

Was just reading that. Haven't yet picked my jaw up off the floor...


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## shwilly (Jul 12, 2016)

Yikes! That's terrible, but at least no one was around.

Coincidentally, I jogged past the top of the Spruce chair on Saturday afternoon, a first. I didn't notice anything amiss.

That's rough. That seems...bad for its prospects of running this year. I hope they figure something out.


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## chuckstah (Jul 12, 2016)

Not good at all.  The lift system is old, and needs an infusion of cash.  A half dozen lifts need to be replaced soon, but it seems more like one every 8 years or so is done.  Need to get the resort sold to a landlord with cash.  I will rethink renewing my Boyne pass in the future if it remains status quo.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> Not good at all.  The lift system is old, and needs an infusion of cash.  A half dozen lifts need to be replaced soon, but it seems more like one every 8 years or so is done.  Need to get the resort sold to a landlord with cash.  I will rethink renewing my Boyne pass in the future if it remains status quo.


Boyne is putting two new lifts in at Big Sky this summer. One a carpet loading fixed grip triple the other a HS six pack bubble. Still with Boyne's track record the past few years it doesn't give me much confidence to ride their Lone Peak tram. Wouldn't anything happening while riding that lift. If you've ever been there you'd know there isn't much holding the top terminal of the tram in place.

Boyne isn't the landlord at Sunday River, CNL is.


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## chuckstah (Jul 13, 2016)

Yes. CNL needs to sell. Thats why I said landlord.  It seems the only arial lifts installed by Boyne in the East since the SR chondola in 08 have been due to lift failure at the Loaf. While I'd love to see the POS Spruce lift replaced, it's not a good sign that once again lift failure is the only way to get a new one.


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## yeggous (Jul 13, 2016)

Seriously this shit does not happen elsewhere. We are past the point of this being a coincidence. It's a July miracle that nobody was hurt.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 13, 2016)

This isn't only a bad look for Boyne, but also the lift inspection staff for the State of Maine as well no? 

 A 30 year old lift isn't that old in the grand scheme of things.  Wonder what undermined the lift foundation. Natural spring at the summit perhaps? I wonder what sort of inspection is done on lift foundations other than looking for cracks.


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## Newpylong (Jul 13, 2016)

At this point I worry more about Borvig than Boyne.


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## drjeff (Jul 13, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> At this point I worry more about Borvig than Boyne.



That is the common thread when you take the 2 incidents at Sugarloaf, the double at Suicide Six, the lift at Timberline, West Virginia and now Spruce......  Borvig is getting pretty close to having the reputation that Yan achieved (with respect to their HSQ's at least) right now


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## jimmywilson69 (Jul 13, 2016)

That is a major, catastrophic failure. I seriously question the inspection process both at Sunday River and the State of Maine.  There is no way the foundation of a lift should fail over night in a manner that completely destroys the bull wheel.  If there was some sort of undermining that cause the tower to basically "tip over" it should've been apparent.  

Was there any lager rain events recently at the Mountain? It looks like the ground the foundation was on just gave way. I was in Acadia all last week and It barely rained there, but that area is also hundreds of miles from Sunday River.


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## Vortex (Jul 13, 2016)

Glad there were no injuries.  This lift is probably the one that going down hurts them the least. If you take Boreais  off Aurora its a 2 to 5 minute walk to Down draft and Amex,  Risky another minute.  They already used the Aurora lift as an early opening lift last year with what I would say was a successful experiment.  Bottom line is this is not good, won't effect me much.  Not going to stress. Out of the box...
Bring out one of the surface rope tow lifts and run it to the top of spruce to from Borealis is you really want people not to walk.Traffic won't be coming down that way anymore.


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## Edd (Jul 13, 2016)

It's not critical for navigation but that pod keeps a good chunk of people occupied. I'd think they'll fix it pretty quick.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 13, 2016)

http://8.sundayriver.com

Will they change it to 7.75.sundayriver.com ?

I kid.  I'd be somewhat surprised if they fix it. This is a worse failure than the previous problems they've had; it just won't get the same amount of news coverage and bad press because it's the off season and no one was riding it.  I would think from a consumer confidence standpoint it would need to be replaced.  I'm not sure how feasible that is this late in the summer.


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## Jully (Jul 13, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> They're lucky in that it is only 3-4 trails but it is a pretty heavy traffic grabber being right off the Chondola. In the long run that's a good spot for a carpet loader quad, they just put the carpet in they can keep it right there.
> 
> As for next season, it is pretty late in the year to put an order in and get the ball moving on an install. Worst case scenario there's no lift there, best case you remove the bullwheel off the footing and replace it and hope people will ride it.



I could see them fixing it, but only running it sparingly when crowds necessitate. Then early next offseason they replace it. I'm sure they'd like CNL to sell, but we saw with okemo that CNL's current position doesn't prevent lift installations.

While it sucks that this has happened at Boyne resorts primarily, and they definitely have some responsibility, I'd place more blame on CNL and most of the blame on Borvig. From what I know about lift inspections, a lot of the Borvig problems are not easily identified using the current system, hence why special inspections were needed at SL to find Timberline's issue and the inspections at S6.


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## machski (Jul 13, 2016)

Wow, everyone is jumping on Borvig fast.  This is a bit different, it is the concrete footing/anchor that gave way.  Could it be a design flaw from Borvig engineering?  Possibly.  Could it be poor concrete from the supplier when poured?  Possibly.  Could it be bad site selection for the footing?  Possibly.  We'll have to wait for the investigation results to know for sure.  I can tell you as I ski a ton there, where the Spruce top anchor is, that terrain it sits in is like a bowl.  Rain water does not drain well away from that footing (or several of the tower footings towards the top as well).  I have a feeling drainage will be sited as a major factor here.  If the ground started giving first, allowing a touch of movement of the anchor, that could have been enough force to then rip apart the concrete/rebar structure like you see if a picture.  That anchor has to exert a massive amount of force 24/7 just to counter the empty lift.

My guess is if they repair, the top terminal gets moved above the current unload (like more in line almost with the patrol shack at the top) to give that footing better drainage.  As for the carpet, it could not be used with a Quad.  It is not wide enough for four abreast loading.


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## machski (Jul 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Boyne is putting two new lifts in at Big Sky this summer. One a carpet loading fixed grip triple the other a HS six pack bubble. Still with Boyne's track record the past few years it doesn't give me much confidence to ride their Lone Peak tram. Wouldn't anything happening while riding that lift. If you've ever been there you'd know there isn't much holding the top terminal of the tram in place.
> 
> Boyne isn't the landlord at Sunday River, CNL is.



And actually one of Big Sky replacements is for the Challenger Double that died in February and was left for dead the remainder of the season.  So even there only one lift can be said to be a planned replacement of a functioning lift (and I still have no idea why the Lone Peak Triple needs to be a heated, bubble HSS for line length <4000').


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## mbedle (Jul 13, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That is a major, catastrophic failure. I seriously question the inspection process both at Sunday River and the State of Maine.  There is no way the foundation of a lift should fail over night in a manner that completely destroys the bull wheel.  If there was some sort of undermining that cause the tower to basically "tip over" it should've been apparent.
> 
> Was there any lager rain events recently at the Mountain? It looks like the ground the foundation was on just gave way. I was in Acadia all last week and It barely rained there, but that area is also hundreds of miles from Sunday River.



I'm not an engineer, but looking at the pictures it appears the the concrete footer failed just below grade. Not sure if that would have been caught during any routine inspection by either the state or the resort. Its also odd that all the re-bar was straight. I am guessing that the weight of the lift pulled them straight when they came out of the footer still in the ground. If this was a catastrophic failure, I can only imagine the force that was applied to the first tower going down the hill, when it took the weight of the rope after it slipped off the bull wheel. It doesn't look like the cable is still attached to the bull wheel. Maybe it got hooked on the sheaves just before the bull wheel.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

machski said:


> (and I still have no idea why the Lone Peak Triple needs to be a heated, bubble HSS for line length <4000').


Yeah I really don't understand that either. There was never a line for that chair the couple of times I was there but then again there weren't lines for any lift except the tram. A six pack in there will only make the lines for the tram longer. I think the tram only holds 16 people at a time.


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## mbedle (Jul 13, 2016)

machski said:


> Wow, everyone is jumping on Borvig fast.  This is a bit different, it is the concrete footing/anchor that gave way.  Could it be a design flaw from Borvig engineering?  Possibly.  Could it be poor concrete from the supplier when poured?  Possibly.  Could it be bad site selection for the footing?  Possibly.  We'll have to wait for the investigation results to know for sure.  I can tell you as I ski a ton there, where the Spruce top anchor is, that terrain it sits in is like a bowl.  Rain water does not drain well away from that footing (or several of the tower footings towards the top as well).  I have a feeling drainage will be sited as a major factor here.  If the ground started giving first, allowing a touch of movement of the anchor, that could have been enough force to then rip apart the concrete/rebar structure like you see if a picture.  That anchor has to exert a massive amount of force 24/7 just to counter the empty lift.
> 
> My guess is if they repair, the top terminal gets moved above the current unload (like more in line almost with the patrol shack at the top) to give that footing better drainage.  As for the carpet, it could not be used with a Quad.  It is not wide enough for four abreast loading.



The drainage is a good theory combined with maybe a bad batch of concrete. Weak layer with water infiltration, freeze/thaw condition would ultimately cause a failure. Based on what looks to be staining in the area of the re-bar, I would guess at this point, you are correct.


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## machski (Jul 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah I really don't understand that either. There was never a line for that chair the couple of times I was there but then again there weren't lines for any lift except the tram. A six pack in there will only make the lines for the tram longer. I think the tram only holds 16 people at a time.



I have heard rumors they eventually want to put a gondola up from the base by swift current to the base of the Lone peak chair.  That can be the only reason for HSS (and I guess they could always make the gondola into a Chondi and link it onto the HSS later if they wanted).  Otherwise, seems like overkill and wasted $$ to me.


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## ss20 (Jul 13, 2016)

That is catastrophic.  What's terrifying is that this is something that could've happened any day...summer or winter.  

Not gonna jump the shark on Borvig yet either.  Pouring the concrete footings is something the lift construction company would be responsible for.  I am sure the lift _engineering_ company way over-engineers tensioning terminal weight (if anyone looks at counterweight blocks...you won't see them move too much...even in the most sudden of stops).  

I'd say this is more of mother nature's doing than Borvig's, Boyne's, or the lift construction company's fault.  Catastrophic failures don't just happen to basic non-moving parts like this unless there's a flaw in engineering (which probably would've resulted in failure within the first 5 season of the lift...not year 30) or the unknown effects of rainwater/deterioration (winner winner chicken dinner I'm willing to bet).


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## ss20 (Jul 13, 2016)

To my point of over-engineering...Mount Snow removed their SKi Baba beginner lift this summer (ironically enough a Borvig lift as well).  This is the counterweight... for a 500 foot beginner lift...it's massive.


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## shwilly (Jul 13, 2016)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Was there any lager rain events recently at the Mountain? It looks like the ground the foundation was on just gave way. I was in Acadia all last week and It barely rained there, but that area is also hundreds of miles from Sunday River.



The weekend was mostly drizzly. There were a few periods of solid rain on Saturday, none sustained. Overall, it was rainy and the ground was wet and muddy, but nothing out of the ordinary.


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## machski (Jul 13, 2016)

This is as good of an early take on this as i have seen (and a respected lift info site).
https://liftblog.com/2016/07/13/sunday-river-lift-severely-damaged-as-terminal-falls/#more-24693


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## SkiFanE (Jul 13, 2016)

Have to admit I'm surprised by the blaming tone of this thread. So which mountain would you buy a pass at where you are 100% certain you will never receive a scratch, ever, considering you dangle from a chair up 50ft in the sky?  Life is a crapshoot and I believe I'm more likely to be killed by a Pokemon chasing driver or Tesla Autopilot than this type of event.  Definitely a "strange shit happens" event. Thankful it happened when it did - and maybe in frozen ground/winter it never would have happened. That's one of my favorite peaks at SR, and a fave lift - I'm an oddball lol. Over last 10 years I've felt comfy with the maintenance at SR and their willingness to shut down lifts whenever necessary for safety - no matter how busy that lift may be. To me, a lift built in the 80s is not something requiring replacement - then 100% of all mountains would need replacement. Heck - how old are the planes you all take getting to/from your ski trips out west, and you're up 30k+ feet in a tin can possibly as old. 

I have complete faith SR will handle this safely and in due time.  They sent email to passholders with the "news". Sucks for them.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2016)

I thought it was interesting that the NE Ski News Article made one reference to Boyne.  The author mentions CNL in two or three places and says that CNL installed lifts.  I thought it was a joint venture of sorts.  Maybe that is not wrong.   

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=456


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2016)

And FWIW this was a 30 year old chairlift.  I imagine that it was nearing the end of its design life.  I imagine that there will be more similar issues in the future since many areas are using older lifts that have not been updated.


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## ss20 (Jul 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> And FWIW this was a 30 year old chairlift.  I imagine that it was nearing the end of its design life.  I imagine that there will be more similar issues in the future since many areas are using older lifts that have not been updated.



30 years is just over the hump in lift life expectancy...not the end of it's life.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

I wonder if adding a loading carpet & increasing the speed the chair runs had anything to do with it? The lift surely wasn't designed to run 20% faster which it did with loading carpet..


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I wonder if adding a loading carpet & increasing the speed the chair runs had anything to do with it? The lift surely wasn't designed to run 20% faster which it did with loading carpet..



Good point.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2016)

ss20 said:


> 30 years is just over the hump in lift life expectancy...not the end of it's life.



You think that this lift had a life expectancy of 50 years?  I've heard that number thrown out for lifts in general.


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## Newpylong (Jul 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I wonder if adding a loading carpet & increasing the speed the chair runs had anything to do with it? The lift surely wasn't designed to run 20% faster which it did with loading carpet..



The main FPM limit is due to loading issues at higher speeds, not mechanical.  Lifts are engineered and built to run faster than the Tramway allows them to. Most fixed grip lifts can mechanically operate safely in the 600 FPM range.


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I thought it was interesting that the NE Ski News Article made one reference to Boyne.  The author mentions CNL in two or three places and says that CNL installed lifts.  I thought it was a joint venture of sorts.  Maybe that is not wrong.
> 
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=456


It's my understanding that CNL owns the land, equipment & infrastructure & therefore pays for any new lifts. Boyne operates the ski area & is responsible for maintenance & inspection of the lifts. What happened sounds above & beyond what normal maintenance & inspection entails. Is Boyne responsible for the cost of what is above & beyond normal maintenance & inspection or is CNL?


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Boyne operates the ski area & is responsible for maintenance & inspection of the lifts.



This.  We're going to find out in the next few weeks who is responsible for this incident.  I just see that it is another Boyne Resort and you have to wonder.  And I say this as someone who thinks that Boyne is a good company and has done a good job with these resorts.  Maybe it is not their fault, but boy something is wrong here.  Three major lift failures in a few years is a serious black eye.  Maybe it is CNL.  Maybe it is Borvig.  



> What happened sounds above & beyond what normal maintenance & inspection entails. Is Boyne responsible for the cost of what is above & beyond normal maintenance & inspection or is CNL?



Yes, I don't know the arrangement here.


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## mbedle (Jul 13, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> This.  We're going to find out in the next few weeks who is responsible for this incident.  I just see that it is another Boyne Resort and you have to wonder.  And I say this as someone who thinks that Boyne is a good company and has done a good job with these resorts.  Maybe it is not their fault, but boy something is wrong here.  Three major lift failures in a few years is a serious black eye.  Maybe it is CNL.  Maybe it is Borvig.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I don't know the arrangement here.



Based on what I read, it appears that they are required to put a certain amount of rental money away, for use to improve these properties.


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## Riverveteran (Jul 13, 2016)

Blame Boyne, blame CNL - this lift was installed during the Otten growth spurt at SR.  The majority of the infrastructure built during that tenure is vastly deteriorated. We are dedicated SR skiers but the future concerns me.  Lifts that need replaced, not a lodge or on mountain accommodations that qualify as being modern.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 13, 2016)

Riverveteran said:


> Blame Boyne, blame CNL - this lift was installed during the Otten growth spurt at SR.  The majority of the infrastructure built during that tenure is vastly deteriorated. We are dedicated SR skiers but the future concerns me.  Lifts that need replaced, not a lodge or on mountain accommodations that qualify as being modern.



Unfortunately a lot of other resorts are operating with very old infrastructure since there has not been much growth, or access to capital, since the 1990's.  Look at Killington--they have some old lifts.  Pico as well.  Yet only Boyne/CNL have had three Borvig lifts have catastrophic disasters.  Perhaps bad luck?


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## Hawkshot99 (Jul 13, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> It's my understanding that CNL owns the land, equipment & infrastructure & therefore pays for any new lifts. Boyne operates the ski area & is responsible for maintenance & inspection of the lifts. What happened sounds above & beyond what normal maintenance & inspection entails. Is Boyne responsible for the cost of what is above & beyond normal maintenance & inspection or is CNL?


I worked as a department manager for many years at a resort that was bought by CNL.  Over the years we talked quite a bit about the operation with CNL.

CNL is the landlord, SR is the tenant.  Same arrangement as if CNL owned a strip mall, and SR a store located in the mall.  SR wants to make some changes to the store, such as add walls(or a new lift).  CNL must approve these infrastructure changes, but SR pays for them.  

Basically Sunday River runs and is responsible for the operation and functions of the mountain.  CNL is not there all the time checking on how the place is being run.  They are just cashing there rent checks.  If Sunday River wants to go do a expensive improvement that they can not afford, CNL will give them very favorable loan terms for these improvements.

Every year the tenant (SR) is required to put a % of there profits back into the property.  This can be improvements, such as lifts, or maintenance.

This lift failure is entirely on Sunday River, or possibly the lift manufacture.  I would clear them as it has been over 30 years since install.


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## machski (Jul 13, 2016)

Look, everything I have read indicates this is a freak incident.  I can't find another example of the top return anchor footing letting go on a lift.  So, was there something SR could do to detect this impending event?  Not sure, I'm sure concrete footings and anchor foundations are inspected for deterioration.  The last load test on Spruce was last December after it got a new drive bull wheel.  It is odd that it was Boyne run and another Borvig, but I'm not sure either of these had anything to do with this event.  We need to really wait on this one, this is just an odd failure.  All the others Boyne has had have been seen in lifts before the incidents.


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## Quietman (Jul 13, 2016)

Looks like the cement split in half!  I rode this lift on March 20th.  Scary that it failed less than 4 months later with no load!!!!!


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## Not Sure (Jul 13, 2016)

Quietman said:


> Looks like the cement split in half!  I rode this lift on March 20th.  Scary that it failed less than 4 months later with no load!!!!!



Hmmm,looking at the picture looks like 2 concrete pours and not one monolithic pice , Rebar pulled out of first pour .
Who made the lift makes no difference and no inspection could have uncovered this as it was below ground .


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## steamboat1 (Jul 13, 2016)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I worked as a department manager for many years at a resort that was bought by CNL.  Over the years we talked quite a bit about the operation with CNL.
> 
> CNL is the landlord, SR is the tenant.  Same arrangement as if CNL owned a strip mall, and SR a store located in the mall.  SR wants to make some changes to the store, such as add walls(or a new lift).  CNL must approve these infrastructure changes, but SR pays for them.
> 
> ...


If I'm a tenant & my faucet is leaking who's responsible for repairs?


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## skiNEwhere (Jul 14, 2016)

ss20 said:


> To my point of over-engineering...Mount Snow removed their SKi Baba beginner lift this summer (ironically enough a Borvig lift as well).  This is the counterweight... for a 500 foot beginner lift...it's massive.
> 
> View attachment 20449



Ski baba is gone? Almost kind of sad to see that go, since it was the last chairlift in the state that didn't have a safety bar.

Not a structural engineer either but I'm wondering what the foundation looked like the last ski day of the season it was operated....how close was it to failure then?


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## fiddleski (Jul 14, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Hmmm,looking at the picture looks like 2 concrete pours and not one monolithic pice , Rebar pulled out of first pour .
> Who made the lift makes no difference and no inspection could have uncovered this as it was below ground .



As an earlier poster mentioned, it's odd that the rebar is straight, not bent. Might this imply that the footer concrete was so weak that it did not bend the rebar, but simply crumbled around it?

I wouldn't think this would be triggered by recent rain. It was a very dry winter and spring - this region may well be under a drought warning.

Whatever the cause, management must be giving thanks to a kind Providence that this happened in the summer. Could have been another Keystone-type catastrophe.


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## Not Sure (Jul 14, 2016)

fiddleski said:


> As an earlier poster mentioned, it's odd that the rebar is straight, not bent. Might this imply that the footer concrete was so weak that it did not bend the rebar, but simply crumbled around it?
> 
> I wouldn't think this would be triggered by recent rain. It was a very dry winter and spring - this region may well be under a drought warning.
> 
> Whatever the cause, management must be giving thanks to a kind Providence that this happened in the summer. Could have been another Keystone-type catastrophe.



Agree about the rebar , should have had 90 degree bends . Something as important as this concrete should have samples sent out during construction for testing ,they may still be at a lab somewhere. This ski season I'll be looking at the foundations out of curiosity .


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## eatskisleep (Jul 14, 2016)

Almost looks like this: (up internet speculation based on one photo) rebar was set, was partially filled with dirt, then concrete. The rebar looks too clean, typically there would be concrete Spaulding hanging onto it.


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## JPTracker (Jul 14, 2016)

Quietman said:


> Looks like the cement split in half!  I rode this lift on March 20th.  Scary that it failed less than 4 months later with no load!!!!!



The load on the bull wheel is determined by the tension in the cables. That is set by the counter weights at the base which are set to float and keep the tension in the cables constant.  The load on the chairs have no effect on the cable tension. So the actual load on the bull wheel is the same all year long.


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## machski (Jul 14, 2016)

The anchor foundation is set to bedrock due to the forces involved.  The straight, unbent "rebar" was likely drilled into the bedrock with some type of grouting like material to fill in any gap between the iron and rock.  Then the concrete foundation is poured.  Since we are talking bedrock, this is all below grade.  Lots of unresolved questions, but this is pretty typical for upper terminal installs.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 14, 2016)

machski said:


> The anchor foundation is set to bedrock due to the forces involved.  The straight, unbent "rebar" was likely drilled into the bedrock with some type of grouting like material to fill in any gap between the iron and rock.  Then the concrete foundation is poured.  Since we are talking bedrock, this is all below grade.  Lots of unresolved questions, but this is pretty typical for upper terminal installs.


This is just how I interpret the photo.Looks like the base of that concrete was poured on the bedrock with the rebar drilled into it..


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## mbedle (Jul 14, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> This is just how I interpret the photo.Looks like the base of that concrete was poured on the bedrock with the rebar drilled into it..



So the irregular shaped concrete that we see in the picture was directly laying on bedrock (there is no concrete left below grade)? If that is the case, than the entire structure was anchored by rebar attached to bedrock and no type of footer. Seems odd to me to just rely on the rebar. Would think that water infiltration would be an issue in that situation. It looks like water was getting to the rebar and might have ultimately weaken the bond to the bedrock over time.


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## Andrew B. (Jul 14, 2016)

Pretty sure that isnt "rebar". I would assume they are hardened steel rock anchors that were epoxy grouted into the ledge. 
Just my opinion but i have installed rock anchors in the past.


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## Brewbeer (Jul 14, 2016)

If I remember correctly, the rock at the top of spruce is schist, which is pretty soft and easily weathered if water is allowed to act on it.  I agree with others that it looks like anchors drilled and perhaps grouted into the bedrock, with concrete poured on top of that, since the concrete block we can see is too small to do the hold back work with just gravity.  If the lift block was located in a depression in the bedrock, the depression would hold water providing plenty of contact time for water to work it's way down the anchor holes.

  I'm surprised the rock anchors (if that's what they are) weren't drilled at an angle so that the force applied by the lift cable would pull the concrete base down.

Another possible explanation is that the top half of the concrete block separated from the bottom half of the concrete block on what is called a "cold joint".  A cold joint is a surface within a concrete monolith that was allowed to dry out or cure before more concrete was added on top, as might occur if the bottom half were poured on one day, and the top half poured on another.


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## eatskisleep (Jul 14, 2016)

Should have used Hilti RE-500 for the rebar. Half of Boston is held together with that stuff.


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## Not Sure (Jul 19, 2016)

Which leads to another question , are there any other lifts there installed around the same time and done in the same manner?


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## Quietman (Jul 19, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Which leads to another question , are there any other lifts there installed around the same time and done in the same manner?



Locke Mtn Triple is a Borvig that was installed 2 years earlier, and the summit is very ledgy.


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## chuckstah (Jul 19, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Which leads to another question , are there any other lifts there installed around the same time and done in the same manner?



The Locke triple concerns me a lot.  It's also a Borvig, 2 years older being an '84 install.  The top of Locke is all ledge, but no idea if it's the same rock as Spruce, but likely.  I also don't know how it was installed but 2 Borvigs in 3 years I would guess similar.  I hope SR checks it out thoroughly as I hope to be on it in October.  Link to some Locke triple pics on N.E. Ski History. 

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/lifts/viewlift.php?id=561

Typing same time as Quietman with same thoughts!!


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## Edd (Jul 19, 2016)

Locke Triple is an idle lift compared to Spruce. It's open early season, sure but they close it as often as possible. That is to say it undergoes far less stress than Spruce.


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## chuckstah (Jul 19, 2016)

Edd said:


> Locke Triple is an idle lift compared to Spruce. It's open early season, sure but they close it as often as possible. That is to say it undergoes far less stress than Spruce.



For sure. And even real early season is only weekends.  But if erosion is the cause and not use, age, or stress, who knows?  Both need to be replaced for safety reasons as well as consumer confidence IMO.  At fault or not, Boyne's reputation for lift reliability, at least in Maine, is certainly not great at this point.


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## machski (Jul 20, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> For sure. And even real early season is only weekends.  But if erosion is the cause and not use, age, or stress, who knows?  Both need to be replaced for safety reasons as well as consumer confidence IMO.  At fault or not, Boyne's reputation for lift reliability, at least in Maine, is certainly not great at this point.



The use of a lift is irrelevant to the constant force on the top anchor footing.  The tension is always the same on the line, loaded/unloaded and moving or not.  I would think Locke's top bull wheel anchor foundation had a good inspection as the lift has been modified twice since install.  It was converted from counterweight to hydraulic base tension and then the midstation was installed (which likely changed the line tension in the system).  Not to mention the terrain to rock contouring is quite different at the top of Locke vs the top of Spruce.  I'm certain if the investigation reveals any cause for concern, Locke will be closely scrutinized/enhanced prior to the start of the season.


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## Andrew B. (Jul 20, 2016)

machski said:


> The use of a lift is irrelevant to the constant force on the top anchor footing.  The tension is always the same on the line, loaded/unloaded and moving or not.  I would think Locke's top bull wheel anchor foundation had a good inspection as the lift has been modified twice since install.  It was converted from counterweight to hydraulic base tension and then the midstation was installed (which likely changed the line tension in the system).  Not to mention the terrain to rock contouring is quite different at the top of Locke vs the top of Spruce.  I'm certain if the investigation reveals any cause for concern, Locke will be closely scrutinized/enhanced prior to the start of the season.


+1
It appears that the manufacturer of this lift has nothing to do with this failure.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 20, 2016)

Here is a link with a Vimeo video that shows a few new views.Still cant quite see what that foundation detached from.
https://liftblog.com/2016/07/13/sunday-river-lift-severely-damaged-as-terminal-falls/


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 20, 2016)

After looking again I can definately see discoloration on the uphill side of that concrete.Is that new rust or old,we'll see.Also,from that limited view it appears to be be drill holes in the ledge but its tough to tell.I also read that the failure resulted in the chairs being put to the ground but the pics show otherwise.Wondering whats holding the haulrope supended?Maybe the last tower perhaps?


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## freeski (Jul 20, 2016)

What about the vibration caused from the lift operating at full capacity. I don't think a static lift and one operating have the same chance of a failure. Very lucky no one was on it. Also with a load on the cable, the collapse could have been more violent and caused more damage not to mention injuries.


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## tree_skier (Jul 20, 2016)

i also don't think that an idle lift and a lift loaded to capacity has the same tension.  now i know the failure happened when idle but the cause, which in my humble opinion is either rusty anchors or failure in the bedrock itself could very well had been initiated under the greater use of spruce over locke


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## machski (Jul 20, 2016)

SR just posted an update.  Initial finding suspects a grout failure but more testing is planned.  No decision on repair/replace as yet.
http://sundayriver.com/news


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 20, 2016)

Looking at the video again and it sure looks like the separation had been happening for some time based on the discoloration of the bottom of the concrete.Stop the video at that point and see what you think.


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## machski (Jul 20, 2016)

Don't forget, the lift base terminal is capable of sliding fore and aft to account t for load and acts like a shock absorber for the lift.  Line tension. Is the same though downhill load is increased when loaded.  This force must be overcome by drive motor and if motor fails, the brakes and emergency stops must activate.  Given a grout failure is suspected, I doubt any of the speculations here apply.  This could be a failure at the chemical level.


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## yeggous (Jul 20, 2016)

No decision has been made because they are awaiting tests on that grout. They probably want to know how feasible it is to just paste everything back together and pretend that nothing ever happened.


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## Jully (Jul 20, 2016)

yeggous said:


> No decision has been made because they are awaiting tests on that grout. They probably want to know how feasible it is to just paste everything back together and pretend that nothing ever happened.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app



That's a pretty good scenario though. They're not going to fix the lift unless they're absolutely certain there's no deeper problem. Boyne won't be taking any chances. 

Assuming it's a fix and not a replace, it's likely going to be operational this year. If it needs to be replaced, then there's no Spruce and a lot more people skiing the Barker and Aurora lifts.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 20, 2016)

Jully said:


> That's a pretty good scenario though. They're not going to fix the lift unless they're absolutely certain there's no deeper problem. Boyne won't be taking any chances.
> 
> Assuming it's a fix and not a replace, it's likely going to be operational this year. If it needs to be replaced, then there's no Spruce and a lot more people skiing the Barker and Aurora lifts.



There's no other lift to serve most of that terrain, right?


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## machski (Jul 20, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> There's no other lift to serve most of that terrain, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Correct, though it is not a tough or long hike uphill Sirius from Borealis/Vortex on Aurora.  You only loose 2 full trails (Upper Downdraft and Gnarnia) and 2 portions (Upper Risky Business and AmEx) though you can access a decent amount off of 3 mile trail on the last 2.

My guess is repair with a new top terminal located slightly above the original in the open space between risky and AmEx.  This approach would likely require a new haul rope and probably one new tower prior to the terminal.


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## Jully (Jul 20, 2016)

machski said:


> Correct, though it is not a tough or long hike uphill Sirius from Borealis/Vortex on Aurora.  You only loose 2 full trails (Upper Downdraft and Gnarnia) and 2 portions (Upper Risky Business and AmEx) though you can access a decent amount off of 3 mile trail on the last 2.
> 
> My guess is repair with a new top terminal located slightly above the original in the open space between risky and AmEx.  This approach would likely require a new haul rope and probably one new tower prior to the terminal.



I agree and hope we'll see something like that. Though you can hike to it, not many would. It'd make that terrain killer this season, but I'd rather have the lift for the sake of the crowds. 

It's going to be expensive though...


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## steamboat1 (Jul 21, 2016)

SR will buy the Rangeley double as a replacement. Cost $3M.


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## zoomzoom (Jul 21, 2016)

quick explanation: the return station was located on ledge. rather than blast/excavate a sufficiently sized hole and install a gravity foundation where resistance to overturning is met by a concrete block of suitable size, a "pinned foundation" was utilized. in this method, the ledge is cleaned of all debris by mechanical means or water jet, followed by drilling holes in the the ledge. rock anchors are installed according to the designer, then a concrete block on which the return pedestal rests is poured around the anchor bolt cluster. in vt, only mechanical-type locking anchors are allowed (i.e. split-lock or Rawl stud type). installation of anchors of rebar affixed in position by chemical means (epoxy) or grouting is not allowed.

why not? you may recall the two epoxy-type anchor failures in the boston tunnel, and a previous rebar/grout failure at gunstock. we vermonters don't like to be in the papers.

the pic shows the return terminal after failure (well, duh!). tension from the hauling rope and chairs was from the left side. the grouting failed, the terminal was pulled up and to the left and toppled over. remember this is not a gravity anchor, the mass of concrete seen here was insufficient to resist overturning. you can see the rebar cluster proud of the block. pay no attention to the decking, that's just the unload deck and lift house. 

"In Maine, it’s too early to say what happened, but the Maine Board of Elevator and Tramway Safety is alerting other ski areas in the state to ensure that the lifts are properly anchored, spokesman Doug Dunbar said." Mr. Dunbar apparently is in over his head, as everyone in the business knows terminal rock anchors/grouting are not visible for inspection.


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## Not Sure (Jul 21, 2016)

All the pins were in the same direction , having a radial pattern would have been a better design ! But seems like a crap shoot of a method, how do you know what integrity the ledge has?  Old man in the mountain.....gone as well


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## zoomzoom (Jul 21, 2016)

a great question!  the integrity of the outcropping is assessed by the guy operating the drill.  if he feels solid and consistent resistance to the drills' progress downward, the ledge is judged acceptable.  if there is a sudden drop of the bit, that means he's just passed through a seam or void of some sort.  not good, and this info will be passed to the lift designer.  he's basically taking a perfunctory core sample.  assessment of the ledge is much more difficult when using a drilling rig, rather than a hand drill.  as you can see, gravity anchors have benefits.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 21, 2016)

Pretty much what I was speculating.http://www.sundayriver.com/media-center/press-releases/spruce-peak-triple-update-7-20


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## zoomzoom (Jul 21, 2016)

reinstalling the return would be a simple matter of excavating a hole, pouring a gravity foundation and plugging the return back on it.  new unload deck and lift house and zoom, all done.  of course, before all were to take place the entire assembly would have to be inspected for cracks, and true-ness of the wheel.  simple enough.  but the elephant in the room is...................

was the drive also installed in the same manner? towers?


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## mbedle (Jul 22, 2016)

I would guess that the drive at the bottom of the mountain is set with a gravity footer, given that bedrock is most likely deeper in the valley. The towers don't have the same direction or amount of force that the return had applied to it. Force on towers is mostly down at the angle of the slope (An engineer can correct me on that). Also, I would assume that a large portion of the towers are set with footers and not anchored to just bedrock. The bigger concern, I would think, is the Locke lift return. Same situation and installed only a couple of years later. Key to this is determining why the grout failed. Did it fail on its own or because of some outside influences? If that grout failed on its own and the same grout was used on the Locke lift, that going to be an big issue.


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## mbedle (Jul 22, 2016)

I stand corrected, it does look like bedrock is shallow at the base.


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## SIKSKIER (Jul 22, 2016)

From SR FB page:Spruce Peak will definitely be open this winter, we just don't know the status of the lift yet. As soon as we know, we'll share it


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## steamboat1 (Jul 24, 2016)

Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift.


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## yeggous (Jul 24, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift.



Makes sense from their point of view. To rebuild that lift is to really open themselves up to liability should it ever fail again.


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## Jully (Jul 24, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift.



Does that mean the company is giving SR some money hopefully?

That'll make their statement of Spruce being open this year a tough one to follow through on potentially


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## Dickc (Jul 24, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift.



This actually makes a lot of sense.  Look at the past performance of Borvig lifts in New England over the last few years.  To repair this one would still leave the stigma of the other failures over it.  If anything were to happen with this lift now, no jury would spare the mountain or insurance company a penny.  Force a replacement, and if an accident happens, the insurance can say "we did our part, don't blame us".


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## drjeff (Jul 24, 2016)

The reality is, timewise, a new lift could be installed in time for the season. Many ski areas doing new installations really don't do much of the actual installation work until September and after. 

This also being a VERY LOW new installation year, especially in the Northeast, the chances of a lift manufacturer being able to deliver a new installation, even with a late start/order is much greater than in a year with a multitude of installations going on

We'll see....


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## crystalmountainskier (Jul 24, 2016)

drjeff said:


> The reality is, timewise, a new lift could be installed in time for the season. Many ski areas doing new installations really don't do much of the actual installation work until September and after.
> 
> This also being a VERY LOW new installation year, especially in the Northeast, the chances of a lift manufacturer being able to deliver a new installation, even with a late start/order is much greater than in a year with a multitude of installations going on
> 
> We'll see....



I agree with you there is still time.  But 2016 is the busiest for the lift manufacturers in North America in at least the last five years with 40 new lifts already announced and a handful more still likely to come.
2015: 35 new lifts
2014: 34
2013: 38
2012: 40


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## zoomzoom (Jul 24, 2016)

who?  where?  would save us some googlage time.

"Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift."


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## Quietman (Jul 24, 2016)

Boy, this could really suck if the Locke triple is also grouted to ledge.  Problem is, how do you test for this type of issue?


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## chuckstah (Jul 24, 2016)

oompaloompa said:


> who?  where?  would save us some googlage time.
> 
> "Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift."



I saw it posted on these 2 sites, unconfirmed source.

http://community.sundayriver.com/fo...ilure?id=4449745:Topic:193313&page=6#comments

http://www.snowjournal.com/discussion/774/spruce-peak-sunday-river-falls-over#latest


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## machski (Jul 24, 2016)

The community site is probably good Intel.  I would imagine if it is totaled, that is in relation to the fact it has 30 years of depreciation on it and the repairs would far exceed the residual value.  I doubt this has anything to do with the fact it is a Borvig (note: not declared condemned, declared totaled.  Huge difference here with insurance).  BTW, the carpet loader could be reused with a completely new triple.  Also, install time could be drastically reduced for an all new lift if many or most of the tower tubes can be reused.  About half the tower tubes on the North Peak express are the actual tower tubes from the previous Borvig triple there.


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## Vortex (Jul 25, 2016)

oompaloompa said:


> who?  where?  would save us some googlage time.
> 
> "Someone posted on another site that the insurance company condemned the lift."



Its on the Sunday River Community board.  Sorry just saw Chuckstah posed this.

I had not heard this until this morning.  SR  has done a good  job of keeping us informed of the status.  We will get info when its official.


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## dlague (Jul 26, 2016)

Looking at the trail map it does not look like much terrain would be lost even if they do not get around to replacing or fixing that lift.


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## Edd (Jul 26, 2016)

Yes, it's a small part of the entire place but Risky and Amex are key blue trails that are open nearly the entire season. The central location of the Spruce pod makes it useful. Downdraft is steep and fun, when conditions on it are good, which is not often, IMO.


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## Newpylong (Jul 26, 2016)

dlague said:


> Looking at the trail map it does not look like much terrain would be lost even if they do not get around to replacing or fixing that lift.



Trail maps don't tell the whole story though. Spruce takes a lot of traffic. Good runs there.


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## Cat in January (Jul 26, 2016)

If they do loose Spruce peak for the coming winter (as Edd points out it is a central location with good runs) would be smart marketing if they put in a gate and let people hike for turns.  Short hike and some pretty good terrain that doesn't need too much snow on some of it and a whole bunch on other parts.  Some of my most memorable runs at SR have come off Spruce Peak.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> Trail maps don't tell the whole story though. Spruce takes a lot of traffic. Good runs there.



In addition to the good trails, the lift just makes it that much easier to head to the western part of the resort.  If I'm skiing Barker and want to head out to Aurora or Jordan, I tend to take Spruce and traverse up high to avoid South Ridge and North Peak options.


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## machski (Jul 26, 2016)

If they do not get a lift operational there, the may be able to do some limited snowmaking on 3 mile trail (it doesn't take much snow to open anyway) which allows direct access from Barker summit to the peak lodge.  I have no doubt hiking will be allowed up Sirius if no lift.


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## ss20 (Jul 26, 2016)

machski said:


> If they do not get a lift operational there, the may be able to do some limited snowmaking on 3 mile trail (it doesn't take much snow to open anyway) which allows direct access from Barker summit to the peak lodge.  I have no doubt hiking will be allowed up Sirius if no lift.



I think a hike-to-only terrain season would be a lot of fun.  When the Jackson Hole Tram was being replaced for a season (or was it two seasons?) they put in a short double to the top which was supposedly legendary.  SR should go for a similar concept here and hype up the limited access rather than take it as a deterrent.

Me thinks it's too late to get a new lift up there, but I've been wrong before (just not much)


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## Cat in January (Jul 26, 2016)

machski said:


> I have no doubt hiking will be allowed up Sirius if no lift.



Not sure if I share your conviction.  Has SR ever allowed hiking in the past?  Yes I know we did it, but has an area without lift access ever been opened up before?  I know SL has when I have been there, but have not known it at SR.


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## machski (Jul 26, 2016)

Cat in January said:


> Not sure if I share your conviction.  Has SR ever allowed hiking in the past?  Yes I know we did it, but has an area without lift access ever been opened up before?  I know SL has when I have been there, but have not known it at SR.



Well, not that much terrain up there and ski patrol does have a good hut to hang out in at the top of Spruce.  I can see this happening.  Similar a bit to when they run the Oz quad while all other western peaks are on wind hold (even Spruce).  Yes, it has a lift but there is no patrol shack there and you are on an island that only those that got there before Spruce shut could reach.


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## machski (Jul 26, 2016)

ss20 said:


> Me thinks it's too late to get a new lift up there, but I've been wrong before (just not much)



Probably too late to replace with a detach in time, still time to replace with a new FG (especially if most of the towers can be reused) and definitely plenty of time to install a new top terminal and any other repairs.  It will be interesting to see which way they go.


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## chuckstah (Jul 26, 2016)

Cat in January said:


> Not sure if I share your conviction.  Has SR ever allowed hiking in the past?  Yes I know we did it, but has an area without lift access ever been opened up before?  I know SL has when I have been there, but have not known it at SR.



This past spring when the Barker chair was down for a weekend hiking was allowed up Jungle Rd to access the top of Barker and beyond to Spruce.  I agree with Machski that hiking will certainly be allowed if it comes to that.


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## ss20 (Jul 26, 2016)

machski said:


> Probably too late to replace with a detach in time, still time to replace with a new FG (especially if most of the towers can be reused) and definitely plenty of time to install a new top terminal and any other repairs.  It will be interesting to see which way they go.



I'm only quoting you for reference.

I've heard a few people say to re-use the towers...but if the foundation of the top terminal failed I'm sure they want to get rid of any underground footings whatsoever.


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## Jully (Jul 26, 2016)

machski said:


> Probably too late to replace with a detach in time, still time to replace with a new FG (especially if most of the towers can be reused) and definitely plenty of time to install a new top terminal and any other repairs.  It will be interesting to see which way they go.



Is SR really considering a detach? Or is that just pure speculation on our part? Theres no master plan floating around anywhere right? Turning Spruce into a detach is one of the last things I would expect.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2016)

I wouldn't think they'd need the capacity on Spruce.


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## ss20 (Jul 26, 2016)

Jully said:


> Is SR really considering a detach? Or is that just pure speculation on our part? Theres no master plan floating around anywhere right? Turning Spruce into a detach is one of the last things I would expect.



I think Machski is talking in theoreticals.  Theoretically, if they wanted a detachable, it's too late because that's a lot more work/time to install than a fixed grip lift.

No reason for a hsq on Spruce.  Not enough trail capacity anyway.  Upper Tourist Trap would be even more insane.


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## machski (Jul 26, 2016)

ss20 said:


> I think Machski is talking in theoreticals.  Theoretically, if they wanted a detachable, it's too late because that's a lot more work/time to install than a fixed grip lift.
> 
> No reason for a hsq on Spruce.  Not enough trail capacity anyway.  Upper Tourist Trap would be even more insane.



I have never heard anyone talk of a detach upgrade at Spruce when I've talked with mgmt.  I was just addressing speculation and some penchant for that type of upgrade.  Personally, I'd like it but only to speed up moving from the "classic side" to Jordan/Oz.  But what's a 4 minute faster ride actually get you?

As for tower footings vs the summit anchor, these are 2 different types of pour with totally different loads acting on them.  The summit anchor had to counter the lateral force of the line tension force applied around the bull wheel.  Tower footings only support the tower on the vertical line of the tower.  There is very little if any lateral force on those.  Look closely at North Peak Express next season.  At least half the tower tubes and foundations for that lift are the old North Peak Triple's (Borvig).  Of course, any current lift manufacturer would ensure structural integrity of the footings and towers to their lift requirements.


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## zoomzoom (Jul 26, 2016)

" There is very little if any lateral force on those (tower footings) "

i must respectfully disagree, tower footings must be sufficiently sized to withstand overturning from wind-loads.  with a typical 100mph design wind speed in new england, the lift designer must take into consideration the effective area of the uphill and downhill hauling ropes, uphill carriers with passengers, downhill carriers with no passengers, tower tubes (including tower height), and the tower crossarms with assemblies.

for example:  towers are spaced 250ft apart, 1 3/8cable, 50ft carrier spacing, double chairs, 24inch tower tubes, 8ft long sheave trains 24inches high.  the designer will add up the effective areas for half the distance above and half the distance below the tower in question.  as you can see, the moment on the footing from windloading is significant and must be countered.  and there must be a factor of safety of two.

have heard that the stratton gondola has wind speed measuring/recording devices at the top station and a few line towers.  one morning the lift mechanic noted a max speed of 124mph before the anemometer failed the previous evening.


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## SkiFanE (Jul 27, 2016)

Spruce is definitely hike able from Sirius - did it a few times last winter. But I don't think people consider if top of spruce is skiable without a boatload of manmade. Is there enough natural to cover downdrafts boulders?  I wouldn't bother hiking for terrain above 3 mile unless it was downdraft. And that bottom rock/cliff got me last season - literally side stepped down last 100 yards on 3" of edge downdraft - rest was ice glacier. Other hardier souls would have just careened down and prayed for the best - but I'm not so risky lol. And that was open trail with manmade coverage.


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## SkiFanE (Jul 27, 2016)

And I admit I'm sick of the online speculative experts weighing in based on a few pictures. Let SR digest this all and come up with a solid plan for the future, not just 2016/17. I'm hoping for a nice slow replacement - HSQ would take away exactly what I love about spruce.


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## yeggous (Jul 27, 2016)

oompaloompa said:


> " There is very little if any lateral force on those (tower footings) "
> 
> i must respectfully disagree, tower footings must be sufficiently sized to withstand overturning from wind-loads.  with a typical 100mph design wind speed in new england, the lift designer must take into consideration the effective area of the uphill and downhill hauling ropes, uphill carriers with passengers, downhill carriers with no passengers, tower tubes (including tower height), and the tower crossarms with assemblies.
> 
> ...



124 mph wind is what we call Tuesday at Wildcat.


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## freeski (Jul 27, 2016)

I just need to be able to get to the Spruce Cliffs. :wink:


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## jerryg (Aug 2, 2016)

Said no one... ever! :dunce:



freeski said:


> I just need to be able to get to the Spruce Cliffs. :wink:


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## jerryg (Aug 2, 2016)

Someone else mentioned that Borvig was quickly approaching YAN status in terms of the serious catastrophic failures attributed to YAN's HSQ grips. Frankly, I may be in the minority here or anywhere outside of California, but I think YAN - as a whole - gets a bad rap. Was the dude a little nutty? Sure. Was there a major design flaw in the HSQ grips that lead to deaths? Yes. However, long before any of that, YAN was installing doubles and triples all around the state of California, along with many other western states. What is rarely ever mentioned is that many of those lifts are still in service as the original lift or as relocated lift. Now Mach will correctly tell you that these fixed grips were all re-fitted with replacement grips, which happened after the HSQ accidents, but that was a mandate from the legal fallout. I believe there was a death from a lift accident at Lee Canyon, NV, (May have been LV Ski & SB Resort at the time) which may have gone a long way toward this. Regardless, YAN fixed grip lifts had been operating for over a decade and a half before any of this. What makes YAN unique in this respect is that people died and the resorts were major players in western skiing. I think that if people had died from these Borvig accidents, the fallout may be completely different, and may still be, depending on what the investigation finds. Either way, I love Borvig and YAN lifts. Is there an issue with Boyne lifts? Absolutely, but I don't fault the manufacturers at present. I think SR has been very open about what went on and it may have just been unavoidably freak, but the SL stuff bothers me more. I think 'operator error' comes to mind.


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## Newpylong (Aug 3, 2016)

YAN fixed grips are as solid as they come for sure.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> YAN fixed grips are as solid as they come for sure.



Assuming the bullwheels are all fine. 


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## ss20 (Aug 3, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> YAN fixed grips are as solid as they come for sure.



Good looking too.


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## Newpylong (Aug 3, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Assuming the bullwheels are all fine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



1 failure in 1985?


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> 1 failure in 1985?



That was a big failure. 


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## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2016)

Out of how many installs? In how many years?


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## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2016)

Good track record if you ask me - though it only takes 1 to tarnish it.


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## Jully (Aug 4, 2016)

But how does that compare to the other major lift manufactures during that time period? 

It was his practices of welding in the parking lot of the resort that was a big critique if I recall.


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## Jully (Aug 5, 2016)

Fair point. It can definitely be done well, and obviously 99% of his fixed grips were done well. A bullwheel collapsing is pretty serious though.


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## WoodCore (Aug 10, 2016)

Interesting to note that the Borvig Triple Chair at Highland Mountain Bike Park is closed next week so that repairs can be made to improve the anchoring of the summit bullwheel. http://highlandmountain.com/2016/08/08/closure-for-trail-maintenance-and-lift-service


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## thetrailboss (Aug 10, 2016)

WoodCore said:


> Interesting to note that the Borvig Triple Chair at Highland Mountain Bike Park is closed next week so that repairs can be made to improve the anchoring of the summit bullwheel. http://highlandmountain.com/2016/08/08/closure-for-trail-maintenance-and-lift-service



Yes, very interesting.  Wonder if the same will happen to, say, Pats Peak's Borvig Triple?


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## sull1102 (Aug 10, 2016)

Highland's site says they will be upgrading the anchoring to 3x's the NH requirements. I wonder how much of that is precautionary and how much of that is needed?


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## machski (Aug 14, 2016)

I heard today (and saw) Locke is also being reinforced at SR.  Maybe some control upgrades too.


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## chuckstah (Aug 14, 2016)

Good to hear they are being proactive with the Locke chair. Hope to be making turns off it in not much more than two months.


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## machski (Aug 14, 2016)

chuckstah said:


> Good to hear they are being proactive with the Locke chair. Hope to be making turns off it in not much more than two months.



Me too, but chairs are all off line, rope has been dropped off top three tower sheave sets and top operator shack has been gutted.  A lot of work in the next 60 days from the looks of it.


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## Quietman (Aug 14, 2016)

machski said:


> Me too, but chairs are all off line, rope has been dropped off top three tower sheave sets and top operator shack has been gutted.  A lot of work in the next 60 days from the looks of it.



Still, Spruce will need a lot more work before the season starts!


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## machski (Aug 14, 2016)

Quietman said:


> Still, Spruce will need a lot more work before the season starts!



Yup, the chairs are just dropped (not much else they could do) under the line, the haul rope has been cut at each summer trail crossing.  Not sure all the chairs survived the lowering from what I saw today.  For now, if the rope and chairs are not cleaned up, Gnarnia will be off limits this winter regardless of lift status.


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## machski (Aug 18, 2016)

And the official answers:
Mountain Report

HELPFUL LINKS

Buy Lift TicketsSave On LodgingSnow GuaranteeWeather

Make Spruce Great Again

As you well know, the Spruce Peak Triple took a tumble this summer and we've been hard at work getting to the bottom of it. And while we'd love to sit here and share stories about the good old (slow) days on the Spruce Peak Triple that was, there are more important things to discuss. Namely, we'll be replacing the Spruce Peak Triple with a brand new lift.

"Say what?!" you say. Well, it's true.**Spruce is getting an upgrade! This fixed-grip triple chairlift from Doppelmayr, complete with a conveyor loading system, will get you from top to bottom a full two minutes faster, meaning you can ski Spruce Peak's signature corduroy two minutes sooner than ever before.

We're still noodling away at what this construction timeline will look like as we delve into engineering plans with Doppelmayr, but we just couldn't wait any longer to let you in on the big news! Have no fear—you'll still be able to hit American Express, Risky Business, and Downdraft this winter as conditions allow. Just take the Aurora Peak Quad to Borealis before a tiny hike up Sirius while we get down to business replacing the lift.*

What's more, we've already begun construction on another lift project, too. Much like an episode of*Pimp My Ride, we're getting a shiny new top terminal for the Locke Mountain Triple due to design similarities to the old Spruce lift. We expect this project to be finished right around opening day. Again, no worries. We'll still be first in the East to open, because if Locke isn't quite ready for action, we'll make snow on Aurora Peak to be accessed by the Chondola.*

And speaking of big news, we're still offering lift tickets at a discounted rate through our*Cold Front sale. Just pick the day or days you want to*ski this season*and see what kind of deals you can score. The sale is open through Saturday, August 20 at midnight.*

Still dreaming of warm sun and grass between your toes? Visit our summer activities page to get the lowdown on the*Mountain Park. We'll be over here, cranking the AC, donning down jackets, and perusing blueprints.*


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## Jully (Aug 18, 2016)

So hike only terrain this season? Glad that they are able to move forward with a new lift at least!


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## Jully (Aug 18, 2016)

Just read the report on SR's website. They do not rule out the chance of Dopp getting the new lift installed before the opening of Spruce for the season.


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## Edd (Aug 18, 2016)

That would impress the hell out of me.


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## yeggous (Aug 18, 2016)

I noticed the Locke Triple repairs too. Same story as the lift repairs at the Loaf after the previous collapses.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2016)

Good for them.  Interesting that they opt to do a new version of what is already there instead of upgrading.  Do they still make high speed detachable triples?  Aspen and Alta have one each.  












Actually....Aspen's is a double chair with three-person carriers.


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## drjeff (Aug 18, 2016)

The unknowns (publicly at least for now) are can/does Dopp have the components for the new lift either mostly made, or have the production capability to do so quickly right now?  And how much foundation construction and pouring work needs to be done?

The actually lift assembly part can be done in a few weeks once the concrete for the foundations has adequately cured, and the parts are on site.  It's not like SR will have to start from scratch completely clearing an new lift line and/or base/summit terminal areas with Spruce.

Heck, when I was out in Montana last week at Big Sky, the 2 new Dopp's that they're installing this summer, a new triple and a new bubble six pack, only had the foundation work completed and a bunch of parts on-site, and the guide we had for our trip to the summit of Lone Peak told us that they fully anticipate having both lifts up and running for their opening day the week before Thanksgiving.  This is also what i witnessed 1st hand at Mount Snow when the installed the Bluebird.  The actually lift assembly part, which was effected by the devasting effects that Tropical Storm Irene brought to the area the last weekend of August that year, didn't begin until Mid September, and the lift was completed, certified and ready for operation by Thanksgiving.

If SR can get the parts from Dopp, and they don't have to do too much concrete work (i.e. can the tower foundations be used again), then an operational Spruce this season should be able to happen at some point


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## doublediamond (Aug 18, 2016)

drjeff said:


> If SR can get the parts from Dopp, and they don't have to do too much concrete work (i.e. can the tower foundations be used again), then an operational Spruce this season should be able to happen at some point



I'll bet anything none of the existing footings a reused.  They've confirmed the cause was grout failure.  ***IF*** a tower collapsed while in operation, SR/Boyne/CNL would be killed by the lawyers.


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## doublediamond (Aug 18, 2016)

IIRC both high speed triples use standard HSQ terminals.  All that's needed is to put a different hanger arm on the chairs.  The Dopp bales are the same between HS and FG lifts these days (no more x-CTEC design to FG lifts and x-Dopp design to HS lifts). 

 But if you're spending that amount of money, you'd just put fewer chairs on the lift.  You improve loading and can keep larger families together.  A family of 2 and 3 still fit on a quad.  A family of 4 can now sit together.  And a family of 5 or 6 would still need to take a 2nd chair.


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## Jully (Aug 18, 2016)

drjeff said:


> The unknowns (publicly at least for now) are can/does Dopp have the components for the new lift either mostly made, or have the production capability to do so quickly right now?  And how much foundation construction and pouring work needs to be done?
> 
> The actually lift assembly part can be done in a few weeks once the concrete for the foundations has adequately cured, and the parts are on site.  It's not like SR will have to start from scratch completely clearing an new lift line and/or base/summit terminal areas with Spruce.
> 
> ...



The post says that Dopp will need to manufacture at least some of the parts and that will be the main determination on the timeline for the new lift installation. For $2.1 million I would assume that it is an almost completely new install as that is pretty close to the $1.7 million Middlebury paid for their new Dopp triple a few years ago.

Hopefully, regardless of the new installation timeline, SR removes the chairs currently lying on the ground so we can ski under the old lift this winter.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 18, 2016)

drjeff said:


> The unknowns (publicly at least for now) are can/does Dopp have the components for the new lift either mostly made, or have the production capability to do so quickly right now?  And how much foundation construction and pouring work needs to be done?
> 
> The actually lift assembly part can be done in a few weeks once the concrete for the foundations has adequately cured, and the parts are on site.  It's not like SR will have to start from scratch completely clearing an new lift line and/or base/summit terminal areas with Spruce.
> 
> ...


As you said Big Sky (another Boyne operated resort) is having the same exact lift being built right now. I'd think Dopp is already set up for production.


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## doublediamond (Aug 18, 2016)

Jully said:


> For $2.1 million I would assume that it is an almost completely new install as that is pretty close to the $1.7 million Middlebury paid for their new Dopp triple a few years ago.



The going rate for a 4000 ft Dopp FG lifts is now $3M.  Old Spurce was 4300 ft.  The incremental cost between a triple and quad is pennies.

The also-late-ordered Mittersill Double was over $2.6M.  The price SR is paying is a bargain.  Something's reused.  A terminal goes for $800k, which is close to the discount amount.


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## Jully (Aug 18, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> The going rate for a 4000 ft Dopp FG lifts is now $3M.  Old Spurce was 4300 ft.  The incremental cost between a triple and quad is pennies.
> 
> The also-late-ordered Mittersill Double was over $2.6M.  The price SR is paying is a bargain.  Something's reused.  A terminal goes for $800k, which is close to the discount amount.



Interesting. I did not know that. They must be reusing something then, yeah. That makes a lot of sense too because this lift is substantially cheaper than SL's Skyline was a few years ago.


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## machski (Aug 18, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> I'll bet anything none of the existing footings a reused.  They've confirmed the cause was grout failure.  ***IF*** a tower collapsed while in operation, SR/Boyne/CNL would be killed by the lawyers.



Don't bet that.  As I have already posted previous, half the tower tubes and footings for the Dopp North Peak Express at SR are the original Borvig components reused with new cross arms, sheaves and lifting frames mounted from Dopp.


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## doublediamond (Aug 18, 2016)

North Peak Triple was 12 years old when replaced with the HSQ and there was no hinting of any grouting issues.  Tower tubes may be reused, but the footings certainly won't be.


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## ss20 (Aug 18, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> I'll bet anything none of the existing footings a reused.  They've confirmed the cause was grout failure.  ***IF*** a tower collapsed while in operation, SR/Boyne/CNL would be killed by the lawyers.



I'm in agreement with this.  It's all about the public's perception.  

Skyline- repairing a de-ropement is theoretically as simple as hanging the line back on, twisting some chairs back, and adding better cable-catchers on the towers.  Nope, whole chair replaced. 

King Pine- bearings and parts could've been replaced without putting in a whole new terminal.  There was no damage of irreplaceable parts or structural damage, from my understanding.  

So why do places go the extra-mile after accident-stricken lifts?  Because the general public is stupid and resorts know they will refuse to ride a lift that is supposedly dangerous.

It's the same reason why this will (more than likely) never operate again (especially after the ridiculous amount of NATIONAL media it received).




We're a smart bunch on here.  Most of us spend more time on a skilift than in a car during the winter.  We know there's most likely nothing else wrong with this lift...and that the accident was either a rare design flaw or Mother Nature eating away at the grout in an isolated area (the top terminal).  The 95% of people who ride Spruce Peak have no idea...but they know there was a lift accident and they saw some disturbing images of it after it toppled over.  

So my point...even though we know better...I'm sure SR and Boyne will put in new tower footings just to say that no part of the lift was re-used...and no part underground was re-used either.


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## machski (Aug 18, 2016)

ss20 said:


> I'm in agreement with this.  It's all about the public's perception.
> 
> Skyline- repairing a de-ropement is theoretically as simple as hanging the line back on, twisting some chairs back, and adding better cable-catchers on the towers.  Nope, whole chair replaced.
> 
> ...



I don't agree, they have now been on record saying the a replacing the summit terminal on Locke as it is of similar design.  They are not replacing tower footings on that lift yet they have equated it with the other.  Sand blast and repaint, new cross arms, sheaves and lift frames, most of public would never know the tower and footings are not new.


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 19, 2016)

Why go the extra mile?   If they are spending X dollars anyways and x+ Y dollars gets you a much longer lifetime of the lift, perhaps its a good business decision to save maintenance costs and future capital expenditures.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 19, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Why go the extra mile?   If they are spending X dollars anyways and x+ Y dollars gets you a much longer lifetime of the lift, perhaps its a good business decision to save maintenance costs and future capital expenditures.


Depends on who's flipping the bill for the new lift. CNL is looking to unload the place so if they're paying they wouldn't care about longevity. Boyne has a long term lease so if they're paying I'd assume they would care. I have no idea what the arrangement is between the two for lift replacement costs.


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## Jully (Aug 19, 2016)

Agreed. Though at the same time, who knows what the Spruce bottom terminal was running in terms of maintenance every year? It could have been in pretty good shape.


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## machski (Sep 12, 2016)

*Bump*
Looks like Aurora is the early season terrain this year.  From today's report from the mountain:

And you know what comes after fall? Sweet, sweet wintertime. Our pre-season plans are shaping up nicely and this year we're changing things up and planning to open top to bottom on Aurora as soon as Mother Nature gives us the green light. We even modified our snowmaking infrastructure to allow for more guns along the trailside in those parts. Once we open (which is typically on or around Halloween), you'll head to South Ridge, take the Chondola to the top, and ski into Aurora basin for as many laps as you'd like before downloading in one of the Chondola's cozy red cabins.*

Following Aurora, we'll move back towards the eastern side of the resort to focus on Barker and Locke. By then construction on Locke's new top terminal should be coming to a close.

Wonder if they are just temporary modifications with splitter valves on the existing hydrants or additional hydrants and on which trails.  Given they are now talking Halloween, I believe this means Killington will not have a challenge from SR this season for earliest possible opening.


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## ss20 (Sep 12, 2016)

machski said:


> Wonder if they are just temporary modifications with splitter valves on the existing hydrants or additional hydrants and on which trails.  Given they are now talking Halloween, I believe this means Killington will not have a challenge from SR this season for earliest possible opening.



I think they only reference Halloween because that's typically their opening day.  You can't say Killington won't be a challenge.

Both have reasons to push early season this year-
SR wants to regain passholders trust who may be sour over not having Spruce this year.
Killington wants to get North Ridge open so they can get to Superstar ASAP for the World Cup race Thanksgiving.


Ma Nature decides who wins.  Either way the two resorts will likely open up within 24 hours of each other.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 12, 2016)

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...ight=killington+will+open+before+sunday+river


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## Edd (Sep 13, 2016)

Interesting. They'll have to run a double out of Aurora back to North Peak. That would be 3 lifts running. The other option would be to have snow on Kansas to skate back to the Chondola. I wonder if they'll use the NP lodge for food services as well.


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## Newpylong (Sep 13, 2016)

I doubt they will run the Triple. Likely Paradigm down into Aurora, the Aurora Quad and Lights Out to get back. As for Aurora, likely Northern Lights?


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## machski (Sep 13, 2016)

Last year when Aurora opened early, it was Paradigm in, Northern Lights and Airglow in Aurora with Lights Out back to Chondi (which you could kind of lap with Paradigm for three different runs).  Add to that, they just posted this to Facebook:


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## Jully (Sep 13, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I doubt they will run the Triple. Likely Paradigm down into Aurora, the Aurora Quad and Lights Out to get back. As for Aurora, likely Northern Lights?



That is a tough early season set up in terms of opening quickly. Still less cost than running a third lift though.

However, it'll be higher quality skiing than on Locke IMO.


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## machski (Sep 13, 2016)

I'm thinking if they are doing that much snowmaking system work, this may not just be this year moving forward.  There has always been some friction with all the race training early season.  I could see Aurora for the public and make T2/MM early on Locke for racers after this year if Aurora works well this go.


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## Newpylong (Sep 13, 2016)

Jully said:


> That is a tough early season set up in terms of opening quickly. Still less cost than running a third lift though.
> 
> However, it'll be higher quality skiing than on Locke IMO.



Tis true, having Lights Out is more to cover in marginal temps. They could run the Triple until they get it covered. They certainly have some options over there.

Machski thanks for the info re: Airglow I forgot they did that over Northern Lights.


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## dlague (Sep 13, 2016)

I stated this earlier, by not having the triple they lose a few run albeit good runs but no significant loss overall.


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## machski (Sep 22, 2016)

The latest on Spruce and Locke for this season:
When we last emailed you, it was to announce our plans to replace the Spruce Peak Triple. At that time, we were still waiting on a number of pieces to fall into place, including engineering and manufacturing plans from Doppelmayr for a new three-passenger chairlift, decisions from our insurance carrier, and commitment from our financial partners. To date, we have the engineering plans in-hand but are still waiting on a satisfactory resolution of the other items. The result of these last outstanding pieces is that we’re now behind on any feasible construction timeline and will not be able to install the new Spruce Peak Triple this winter.*

While certainly disappointing, postponing construction does have its benefits. If we were to begin installation on the new lift this season, doing so would force us to close ski access to Spruce Peak for extended periods of time. By delaying this project, all ski terrain can and will remain open throughout the winter as conditions allow.

We realize that being forced to postpone construction will open up many questions, mainly: “Will there ever be a new Spruce Peak Triple?” “Will we be able to ski and ride on Spruce Peak this winter?” and “Will we continue to make snow and groom this terrain?” The answer to all of these concerns is, “Yes—absolutely.” The only thing that has changed is our timeline; our commitment to replacing this chairlift and to your ski experience is steadfast.*

In terms of where we at Sunday River and Boyne Resorts stand for the coming winter, we’re excited to say that construction for the new Locke Mountain Triple top terminal is underway; our expectation is that this improvement will be completed by Thanksgiving. And have no fear—we’re already watching the temperatures closely and are planning to move this year’s opening day to Aurora for top-to-bottom laps.*

As we have pledged from the beginning, we’ll continue to keep you in the loop on our progress and plans as we get closer to opening day, to the season ahead, to the opening of Locke, and to the construction of the new Spruce Peak Triple. In addition to these emails, you can find current information on the*Mountain Report.

Thank you for your continued support.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 22, 2016)

So earn your turns for some of that terrain?


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## machski (Sep 22, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> So earn your turns for some of that terrain?



Yup, and with snowmaking to boot!!


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## Jully (Sep 22, 2016)

Hmm, I wonder what they will do with regards to snowmaking near Locke for the period before Thanksgiving. If the top terminal is under construction, I'm not sure if they will want conduct snowmaking under the rest of the lift.

I suppose they could just push snow to the areas that will be affected though.


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## mbedle (Sep 22, 2016)

I would venture to say that the cut-through from upper vortex to the top of the spruce triple will get pretty warn this winter.


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## Edd (Sep 22, 2016)

It's hard to hold it against them. That timeline sounded overly ambitious to me.


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## ss20 (Sep 22, 2016)

Lol...hike-to-terrain that's groomed and has snowmaking.  All-natural would've been nice.


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## benski (Sep 22, 2016)

ss20 said:


> Lol...hike-to-terrain that's groomed and has snowmaking.  All-natural would've been nice.



I doubt they will make snow on spruce except what can be accessed without hiking. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Newpylong (Sep 22, 2016)

My thought too. Making snow for a few people to hike is like tossing money out the window.


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## ss20 (Sep 22, 2016)

benski said:


> I doubt they will make snow on spruce except what can be accessed without hiking.





Newpylong said:


> My thought too. Making snow for a few people to hike is like tossing money out the window.



From the message:



> “Will we continue to make snow and groom this terrain?” The answer to all of these concerns is, “Yes—absolutely.”


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## machski (Sep 22, 2016)

Jully said:


> Hmm, I wonder what they will do with regards to snowmaking near Locke for the period before Thanksgiving. If the top terminal is under construction, I'm not sure if they will want conduct snowmaking under the rest of the lift.
> 
> I suppose they could just push snow to the areas that will be affected though.



Since they will be starting in Aurora, I would say the pre-turkey extent will be Barker with Right Stuff and Lazy River only.  They will hit connections between Chondi and Barker, may e more of North earlier than normal.  I would also venture to guess Jordan may come into play much earlier than normal given the early terrain being in Aurora.


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## benski (Sep 23, 2016)

I think when they say they will me making snow on the trails they mean the lower part that is still lift does not require hiking. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 2Planker (Sep 23, 2016)

Yeah, the timeline just wasn't realistic. Especially when you're trying to deal w/ Ins Co and couldn't even start the removal or clean up process for months.    I remember when that lift was brand new. I had just moved back to NE from Ohio. Spruce Peak was the expansion LBO dreamed of for years.. I actually helped build and paint that tiny lift shack. We used to put 2-3 people in there before we added the patrol shack over by the sign.  Had a great rookie season there, stayed for 25 more.

Will most definitely be a challenging start this year.  Good thing SR has the best snomaking/grooming


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## machski (Sep 23, 2016)

benski said:


> I think when they say they will me making snow on the trails they mean the lower part that is still lift does not require hiking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You think incorrectly.  They have stated commitment to TTB snowmaking on Risky, AmEx and Upper Downdraft (Upper Downdraft is only accessible from the top).  Granted, they will likely wait to make the upper portions that are not connections until later than normal in the season, but they will in most scenarios(the exception being I suppose if this season winds up like last).


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## Jully (Sep 23, 2016)

machski said:


> You think incorrectly.  They have stated commitment to TTB snowmaking on Risky, AmEx and Upper Downdraft (Upper Downdraft is only accessible from the top).  Granted, they will likely wait to make the upper portions that are not connections until later than normal in the season, but they will in most scenarios(the exception being I suppose if this season winds up like last).



Its impressive, but possibly a little overkill. Doing just one of Amex or risky I would think would be enough. Hopefully there will be enough natural when they get around to making snow to save some money.


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## bigbog (Sep 23, 2016)

Jully said:


> Hmm, I wonder what they will do with regards to snowmaking near Locke for the period before Thanksgiving. If the top terminal is under construction, I'm not sure if they will want conduct snowmaking under the rest of the lift.
> 
> I suppose they could just push snow to the areas that will be affected though.



Doesn't Locke snowmaking usually peak later than Opening week(s)?  ...seems as though it has for more than a few seasons I skied SR.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2016)

machski said:


> You think incorrectly.  They have stated commitment to TTB snowmaking on Risky, AmEx and Upper Downdraft (Upper Downdraft is only accessible from the top).  Granted, they will likely wait to make the upper portions that are not connections until later than normal in the season, but they will in most scenarios(the exception being I suppose if this season winds up like last).



Just seems silly to me to make snow on hike to terrain.  If I were a passholder I'd rather see that snow go towards deeper bases on Barker trails to have a better late April product.


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## machski (Sep 23, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Just seems silly to me to make snow on hike to terrain.  If I were a passholder I'd rather see that snow go towards deeper bases on Barker trails to have a better late April product.



Well look, Spruce terrain usually sees several rounds of snowmaking and usually is opening by Thanksgiving if not earlier.  I am not suggesting they will be making snow like usual on the upper terrain that is hike to, but they are promising they will make snow to open it.  Honestly, without snowmaking, Upper Downdraft and to some extent all three need the dense man-made to keep the rocky sections covered just from wind exposure.  My guess is they will hit the upper terrain once each and after they have skiing from all lift served peaks open first (including off Oz Quad).  Again, if this season goes as last, I doubt they hit upper Spruce runs.  

Personally, I would like to see them hit Quantum Leap and Eureka this year before upper Spruce.  Those trails haven't seen a gun in years but can be a blast when open.  Seems better use of resources to me.


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## Edd (Sep 23, 2016)

machski said:


> Personally, I would like to see them hit Quantum Leap....



That trail rejects snow to a supernatural extent. A two foot pow day and you're hitting rock everywhere.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2016)

machski said:


> Well look, Spruce terrain usually sees several rounds of snowmaking and usually is opening by Thanksgiving if not earlier.  I am not suggesting they will be making snow like usual on the upper terrain that is hike to, but they are promising they will make snow to open it.  Honestly, without snowmaking, Upper Downdraft and to some extent all three need the dense man-made to keep the rocky sections covered just from wind exposure.  My guess is they will hit the upper terrain once each and after they have skiing from all lift served peaks open first (including off Oz Quad).  Again, if this season goes as last, I doubt they hit upper Spruce runs.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see them hit Quantum Leap and Eureka this year before upper Spruce.  Those trails haven't seen a gun in years but can be a blast when open.  Seems better use of resources to me.



That'd a shame they no longer make snow on Quantum leap. Love that trail


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## machski (Sep 23, 2016)

Edd said:


> That trail rejects snow to a supernatural extent. A two foot pow day and you're hitting rock everywhere.



It actually is a horrible exposure.  A lot of sun and winds tend to blow straight up it.  That's why without man made snow, it rarely opens.


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## xlr8r (Sep 23, 2016)

Ok couple of thoughts.

Now that a replacement this year is not going to happen, it would be best IMO to replace it with a low capacity detachable quad with the chairs spaced far apart.  At least that way they can market it as an improvement, while keeping the skier density as is.

This CNL situation really is strangling these ski areas from doing anything, or Boyne really is cheap when it comes to lifts.  The lift needs to be replaced regardless so I do not see the point in waiting for CNL or insurrance.  Get to work replacing the lift, Boyne has the money to do it, so just build it now and deal with the insurance and CNL later.

I wonder if Sunday River will alter or refund any money for season passes and lift tickets.  Hard to justify raising prices, when one of the best and most popular peaks on the mountain will not be lift served this season.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 24, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> Ok couple of thoughts.
> 
> Now that a replacement this year is not going to happen, it would be best IMO to replace it with a low capacity detachable quad with the chairs spaced far apart.  At least that way they can market it as an improvement, while keeping the skier density as is.
> 
> ...


Big Sky (Boyne) is replacing the Challenger double with a carpet loading triple. On the other hand a HS heated 6 is replacing Lone Peak triple. CNL is not involved.


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## machski (Sep 24, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> Ok couple of thoughts.
> 
> Now that a replacement this year is not going to happen, it would be best IMO to replace it with a low capacity detachable quad with the chairs spaced far apart.  At least that way they can market it as an improvement, while keeping the skier density as is.
> 
> ...



Doubt it on refunds, things happen.  Probably why they say they are still going to make snow.  New triple is fine with me, the cost would easily double for a HSQ for little return on a 4300' lifeline in my opinion.  Other things (lodges) need to have money spent and Barker Quad will need to be replaced inside a decade (earlier would be preferred).  Oh, and that 50% boost in water pump capacity they have promised would be nice too.


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## machski (Sep 24, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Big Sky (Boyne) is replacing the Challenger double with a carpet loading triple. On the other hand a HS heated 6 is replacing Lone Peak triple. CNL is not involved.



Yes, and that short heated six will be connected by a gondola on their 2025 plan.  Wonder if they will join it fully and make it a Chondola?  Some of Big Sky financing may be coming from Cross Harbor Partners (Yellowstone club).  They are the entity that actually purchased Moonlight and Spanish Peaks.


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## xlr8r (Sep 24, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> As I see it, there is no way they are going to put in a detachable lift. They very recently invested in a carpet loader for that lift, and a newer triple would be able to boost that speed even a little more. A detachable raises the budget way too much. Sure they could move the carpet loader to another lift, again, adding to the budget.
> 
> And really, what does Spruce peak serve of the mountain? 135 trails overall and this serves 3 trails as well as a connecting trail that you have to skate uphill to access. About 3% of the resort, give or take. Any rightful refund on my ski pass will amount about $12.00 (I bought a bronze pass last April for $419.00). I didn't get a refund last season when there were many more trails I could not ski due to lack of snow cover. They can take my $12.00 refund and put it in a fund for the new lift.
> 
> Folks, Sunday river is going to put in a somewhat faster triple than what was there, adding to the speed that the carpet loader provided. I say we should be happy with that. How many here gladly went/go to Mittersill when no lift was available at Canon, and maybe still do across the Saddle trail? They are saying they can not do it this year. I see them as not trying to unrealistically rush it and are looking to do it right next year. Good on them.



Sunday River markets the hell out of how they have 8 peaks, this being one of them.  The old Spruce triple ran 7 days a week unlike Locke or Oz, and serves some of the premier terrain on the mountain as AMEX, Risky, and Downdraft are all long runs.  And as you bring up trails rarely open or not open last year due to bad snow, AMEX Risky, and Downdraft were all open from last year from New Years on, and always open every year.  So this is really more like 10% of the mountain not being lift served.

The real problem Sunday River is going to be facing lift wise is that there are very few redundant lifts there.  To keep the mountain 100% open and lift served requires at minumum 10 lifts running:

Little White Cap
White Heat
Locke
Barker
Chondola
North Peak
Spruce
Aurora
Oz
Jordan Bowl

That leaves only Whitecap, South Ridge (which should run as it is the beginner lift), Quantum Leap, and Jordan Mountain (which doesn't serve any terrain) as redundant.  So when ever Sunday River has a lift problem, chances are some terrain is cut off and most of these lifts are now 25+ years old.  Also compared to other major mountains in the east a relatively small portion of Sunday River's terrain is served by detachable lifts as 5 peaks are still served only by fixed grips.


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## Quietman (Sep 24, 2016)

Oz rarely runs with the exception of weekends, and I don't think that it ran at all last year(I could be wrong).  By taking Kansas you can access at least 85% of the Oz runs, so in my opinion, the Oz quad is redundant.


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## machski (Sep 24, 2016)

Quietman said:


> Oz rarely runs with the exception of weekends, and I don't think that it ran at all last year(I could be wrong).  By taking Kansas you can access at least 85% of the Oz runs, so in my opinion, the Oz quad is redundant.



True on Oz, and North Peak is basically redundant with the Chondi.  You would be wrong about the Oz quad, skied off it a few days last year.  Ruby Palace was actually open a bit too and skied well when it was.

Risky and AmEx are very nice runs and will be missed, but Upper Downdraft doesn't get a ton of snowmaking love and last year was open sparingly or very icy when it was open.  Not skied by many with the exception of first days open or after a dump.  I don't buy 10% of the mountain there, sorry.  Plenty of other terrain.  Personally, I'd trade Upper Downdraft for Quantum Leap all the time.  Pretty much same length but on the weekends, Quantum has a lift to lap without running down more mellow trails clustered up with skiers.  Eureka, if kept in good shape, is a fun run too and could replace Upper Risky for terrain type for this season. 

Finally, you would really put a detach up every peak at SR?  You're insane, they'd go bankrupt.  It costs a lot more to maintain a detach than a fixed grip.  Given most line lengths barely exceeding 4000' at SR, no need for more detaches.  Carpet loaders on Whitecap, Heat and Aurora would be more than adequate to gain a bit of speed on those lines for relatively little $ as compared to a detach.  Not to mention a Fixed Grip will stay in operation in higher winds than a detach.


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## xlr8r (Sep 24, 2016)

machski said:


> True on Oz, and North Peak is basically redundant with the Chondi.  You would be wrong about the Oz quad, skied off it a few days last year.  Ruby Palace was actually open a bit too and skied well when it was.
> 
> Risky and AmEx are very nice runs and will be missed, but Upper Downdraft doesn't get a ton of snowmaking love and last year was open sparingly or very icy when it was open.  Not skied by many with the exception of first days open or after a dump.  I don't buy 10% of the mountain there, sorry.  Plenty of other terrain.  Personally, I'd trade Upper Downdraft for Quantum Leap all the time.  Pretty much same length but on the weekends, Quantum has a lift to lap without running down more mellow trails clustered up with skiers.  Eureka, if kept in good shape, is a fun run too and could replace Upper Risky for terrain type for this season.
> 
> Finally, you would really put a detach up every peak at SR?  You're insane, they'd go bankrupt.  It costs a lot more to maintain a detach than a fixed grip.  Given most line lengths barely exceeding 4000' at SR, no need for more detaches.  Carpet loaders on Whitecap, Heat and Aurora would be more than adequate to gain a bit of speed on those lines for relatively little $ as compared to a detach.  Not to mention a Fixed Grip will stay in operation in higher winds than a detach.



I would not put a detach on every peak, but some lifts could be upgraded.  I would replace Spruce as stated earlier with a low capacity detachable quad to make the ride fast but keep density the same.  I also would replace White Cap (Tempest) with a detachable quad to entice more people to park and start over there, and ski over there as the whole White Cap side is usually uncrowded.  White Heat is fine as is as it is an expert pod, same for Oz.  Locke's trails are all pretty narrow so I would keep the old school vibe and leave that as a fixed grip.  Aurora is fine for now, the problem with Aurora is the mess that is Upper Northern Lights turning and crossing Kansas.  When Aurora is due to be replaced, probably 10 years or so in the future, A detach would be good if they can fix the Kansas Northern Lights intersection.

I understand the non skiing benefits of the Chondola, but as far a skiing goes, the thing was a pointless addition.  North Peak and South Ridge were both already served by detachable lifts so there was little reason to add a third there.  It would of been better to spend that money on replacing old lifts than on the Chondola.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2016)

Prior to any of that I would think upgrading Barker and Jordan to HS6 chairs would be a higher priority.  Maybe move the Jordan HSQ into Aurora


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## chuckstah (Sep 24, 2016)

Barker certainly needs an upgrade, but I think a detach 6 at Jordan is unnecessary. I've never personally seen a bad line there.   I'd love to see a detach on the Tempest lift. As someone stated, many more people would utilize White Cap with one.  Spruce is fine with a fixed grip. Not much terrain, and still easily accessible without a lift. Leave it natural this year.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2016)

The Tempest lift positively sucks, worst on the mountain IMO.  I just have a hard time seeing them investing $4M plus in what is essentially a transfer lift.  Really only about 400 vert of decent skiing on a couple trails before a long run-out back to the chair. Seems like more a candidate for a conveyor.  

Perhaps things have changed, but when I lived in Portland (8 years ago) and SR was the home hill, Jordan seemed to have the longest lines on the hill next to Barker.  

Overall though, SR really doesn't have lift line issues outside of Barker. The current system spreads the crowds really well. Combine that with being second to K in skier visits most years and thats likely why they don't have more high speed lifts. What they have works very well.


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## chuckstah (Sep 24, 2016)

Yup. The Tempest lift will never get upgraded under this ownership/management.  The lift infrastructure overall is quite old. Hopefully a lift, any lift, will be replaced soon before it fails.  One can dream?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2016)

Definitely have a lot of lifts getting long in the tooth, but if you use Smuggs as a model, most of the fixed grip chairs probably have a good 20 years left in them.

My observation has been that most fixed grip chairs in New England have a lifespan of approximately 50 years.  HSQ maybe 30? But that's kind of unknown.  I think the only HSQ that has been replaced in New England because of age has been the very first one - Forerunner at Stowe. Weve seen others that have been upgraded to a HS6, but I'm unaware of an end of life replacement outside of Stowe's. Maybe we end up seeing detachable chairs start pushing 40 - 50 years.


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## chuckstah (Sep 24, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Definitely have a lot of lifts getting long in the tooth, but if you use Smuggs as a model, most of the fixed grip chairs probably have a good 20 years left in them.
> 
> My observation has been that most fixed grip chairs in New England have a lifespan of approximately 50 years.  HSQ maybe 30? But that's kind of unknown.  I think the only HSQ that has been replaced in New England because of age has been the very first one - Forerunner at Stowe. Weve seen others that have been upgraded to a HS6, but I'm unaware of an end of life replacement outside of Stowe's. Maybe we end up seeing detachable chairs start pushing 40 - 50 years.



I certainly hope SR doesn't keep these lifts another 20 years, even if in theory they will last.  I will move along well before then.  IMO Smuggs is an exception, not the rule on longevity. All lifts should be used as a model, not one resort. They seem to be meticulous with maintenance.  Can't say the same for Boyne resorts.  I certainly agree that only time will tell how long detachables will last, but it looks to me like the SAFE life won't be as long as fixed chairs from what I've seen so far.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 24, 2016)

Move along to where though?  Banks aren't exactly opening up their wallets to lend to New England ski areas over the past decade. That might change, but overall it just seems like most NE mountains are likely to hold onto their lifts as long as they possibly can.


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## steamboat1 (Sep 24, 2016)

Gore Mountains detachable triple was the first to be replaced I think. If not the first it was certainly the oldest.


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## Jully (Sep 24, 2016)

Jordan has liftlines that can rival Barker on Saturdays. I'm not sure if those trails have the capacity for a HS 6 though. If they ever expand beyond Jordan then an upgrade is necessary.

Honestly I like aurora as is. Its such a short lift anyways. Carpet would be ideal but not even necessary IMO. Carpet on Tempest is so necessary though, wow. 

The comment on the chondola I completely agree with too. The thing never seems to even get used. Whenever i see it its practically ski on even during Saturday or Sunday. It's a cool lift, my little cousin who was around 10 when it got put in thought it was super cool at least.


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## chuckstah (Sep 25, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Move along to where though?  Banks aren't exactly opening up their wallets to lend to New England ski areas over the past decade. That might change, but overall it just seems like most NE mountains are likely to hold onto their lifts as long as they possibly can.



Point taken.  There has always been someone to come in and blow away the competition for a period of time, however short.  Maybe Vail and the Epic will be next up and come to town soon?


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## Newpylong (Sep 25, 2016)

SR is in an odd position lift wise in that they installed many fixed grip quads when other areas were installing HSQs, likely due to the sheer number of lifts they have to put in. Now they are stuck with a lot of tough choices as to what has priority, and a potentially monstrous capital needs list.

Isn't Tempest only 3,000 odd feet? That's a prime candidate for a carpet loader I think. Something should be done over there to get people to utilize that base more but I don't think a HSQ is a good fit.

I personally think replacing Spruce with another triple is a mistake when the delta cost going to a quad is very small - though they have their reasons for doing so and you gotta respect that.

The only other one I can see doing something with is Aurora to a carpet loading quad and Barker going to a 6 eventually.


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## zoomzoom (Sep 25, 2016)

a general comment re: using conveyors to enable higher line speeds on fixed lifts.  

using a conveyor to achieve higher line speeds while in compliance w/b77 and any local standards is a great idea, and has been used successfully as some areas.  the cost would be indeed "short money" when compared to a HS lift, however the upgrade needs to include cert by the lift designer that all components (motor, gearbox, rollback devices, bullwheels, line sheaves, etc) are suitable for the higher speed.  this is getting problematic for a PE to "sign off" on this requirement if, say, the gearbox manufacturer won't.  especially on 40 to 50 year-old equipment.  

much less heartburn on new installations, where it's part of the overall design rather than a retrofit.  still worth looking into, imo.


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## Jully (Sep 25, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> SR is in an odd position lift wise in that they installed many fixed grip quads when other areas were installing HSQs, likely due to the sheer number of lifts they have to put in. Now they are stuck with a lot of tough choices as to what has priority, and a potentially monstrous capital needs list.
> 
> Isn't Tempest only 3,000 odd feet? That's a prime candidate for a carpet loader I think. Something should be done over there to get people to utilize that base more but I don't think a HSQ is a good fit.
> 
> ...



The Tempest lift isn't THAT long of a ride so yeah, an HSQ certainly makes no sense. The current issue I have with it is that it currently is quicker to start your day at South Ridge and traverse over to Whitecap than to start at Tempest and take that lift up. Until that timing can be changed, starting at the Whitecap lodge will not be a popular option.

Keeping the Spruce capacity at a triple I'm fine with. The lift never has lift lines really anyways. 

Making Barker a 6 would be a huge improvement and what I think is next. Hopefully they move that HSQ as opposed to scrapping it, but it might be too expensive due to the age of the lift.

A carpet on Aurora would be huge and I would think is coming with the next round of improvements.


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## doublediamond (Sep 25, 2016)

oompaloompa said:


> using a conveyor to achieve higher line speeds while in compliance w/b77 and any local standards is a great idea, and has been used successfully as some areas.



Ski areas routinely get waivers to operate them faster than code if they have a conveyor and suitable carrier spacing.


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## dolehendrix (Sep 26, 2016)

The Jordan summit is already far too congested as is when busy, can't imagine it with a hs6 without some major changes- probably out of the question


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## SkiFanE (Sep 27, 2016)

Ski areas are not killing it in the East. I want SR to remain viable - so spending millions on lifts to get someone up a mountain 2 mins faster is stupid. I know people are all hot the newest and fastest and hugest - but being personally invested in SRs success - i hope they focus on maintaining what they have and enhancing what's there. The carpet loader on Spruce was so silly - did it honestly add to anyone's ski experience that much?  It was a gimic and people screwing up loading process caused more slowdowns than ever. Although I'm sure lifties appreciated it.  SR lift lines are not that bad people!  Sure on Presidents' Day it's a nightmare - but it's like expecting to find a place for your beach towel on Revere Beach on Labor Day - will never be easy.  If anyone.  If skiers choose to spend their skiing dollars based on a lift rather than terrain - good for them, I just don't get it lol. Any bad day at SR usually means it's a bad day everywhere. And for wind holds - yeah can be a disaster, but weather does that. 

Maybe 1970s lift lines of 45 mins (typical in weekend) have me so scarred I think what I see at SR is nothing.


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## Jully (Sep 27, 2016)

Yeah, I completely echo your sentiment about not spending millions on HSQs for peaks with ~1000 vertical and < 5000ft line lengths.

The carpet on Spruce did tremendously enhance my experience though. I didn't really find it stopping any more often too. It went noticeably faster in my opinion and for a relatively cheap price, I'll take 2-3 minutes off the lift time. The difference between a 12 minute and a 9 minute ride makes a world of difference when peaks that I would ski more than spruce would include Aurora (3400ft length) and White Cap (3600ft length). With spruce at 4400ft, a 2-3 minute reduction in lift time brings the ride to the same length as those other peaks. 

I might also be biased because I also spent a lot of time at SL and Shawnee when I lived in Maine and loading carpets on Skyline and the Summit Triple respectively also drastically improved the experience on those lifts.


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## SkiFanE (Sep 27, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> Yeah, that conveyor lift at Spruce improved the experience enough for me to actually use that lift. (Only Locke is slower/longer, which is only a part time lift). I like skiing Spruce trails, but I would avoid it, most times entirely, because of all the lift time involved. I would take the chondi to North Peak to Paradigm to the Aurora lift to get to Jordan. Now I'll gladly take Spruce to Sirius, to get over to Jordan. I'll be disappointed a bit this year.....
> 
> I do share your sentiment about keeping the ski areas viable. Millions to get people to 3 trails 2 minutes faster is just not a bean counter's favorite tactic. But the conveyor cost considerably "around a hundred grand". That works for most bean counters.
> 
> http://archive.boston.com/travel/explorene/specials/ski/blog/2014/11/whats_new_in_ne.html



I love Spruce and would never avoid it for 2 mins extra. And you ski mid week?  Personally, I take bumps whenever they're available - often spruce has best - so after a spruce run I usually enjoy/need the extra couple minutes. Not skiing hard enough of your knees don't need a rest   Our skiing priorities are just different - I'll choose good terrain even if it takes a couple mins extra - you choose based on most # of runs you can get. We'll never see eye to eye on this lol


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## SkiFanE (Sep 27, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> And that is what makes it so much fun. Ski resorts try to give as much as they can to everyone for the least coin spent, or reasonable coin spent.
> 
> Some of are quick healers and are in good enough shape we don't need an extra long ride back up to the top, eh?



You do bumps from top to bottom of spruce and see if you don't need a few mins extra to recover. I don't need a break for groomers - won't even break a sweat.  Takes me twice as long, at least, to get to bottom of trail as someone going down middle of trail.


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## machski (Sep 27, 2016)

If Jordan were to be upgrade to a HSS, switch the carryside to the right, make the unload a 90 degree (towards the patrol shack now up there) and trim back the trees.  Roundabout would need to be widened as that would become a highly utilized route off the summit.  But I think any upgrade there is well into the future.

As for White Cap, Tempest was the target for a carpet loader.  Though I have looked at that peak from time to time, and a HSQ could be put in to run from base to the summit with a midstation at the current base of White Heat to serve the heat expert terrain still without requiring skiing down all the time.  Beyond that, I cannot see white cap getting a detach anywhere.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2016)

machski said:


> If Jordan were to be upgrade to a HSS, switch the carryside to the right, make the unload a 90 degree (towards the patrol shack now up there) and trim back the trees.  Roundabout would need to be widened as that would become a highly utilized route off the summit.  But I think any upgrade there is well into the future.
> 
> As for White Cap, Tempest was the target for a carpet loader.  Though I have looked at that peak from time to time, and a HSQ could be put in to run from base to the summit with a midstation at the current base of White Heat to serve the heat expert terrain still without requiring skiing down all the time.  Beyond that, I cannot see white cap getting a detach anywhere.



Do you think that the summit of White Heat Quad has enough terrain to handle a HSQ?  I don't think so...unless it was intended to move folks to Barker/Locke via Salvation and Obsession/Heats Off.  But even then I don't think it is needed.  I think replacing Tempest would be a better priority.


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## drjeff (Sep 27, 2016)

If SR was going to put a HSQ in to upgrade Tempest, I could see, in conjunction with an overhaul/renovation of the original Grand Summit Hotel, using the quicker access to the rest of the resort via a Tempest HSQ it becoming a marketing focus....


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## yeggous (Sep 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Do you think that the summit of White Heat Quad has enough terrain to handle a HSQ?  I don't think so...unless it was intended to move folks to Barker/Locke via Salvation and Obsession/Heats Off.  But even then I don't think it is needed.  I think replacing Tempest would be a better priority.



Handle a HSQ? Many ski areas routinely run a HSQ at full capacity to a single trail in the early season. Examples are almost too numerous to justify naming.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## benski (Sep 27, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Do you think that the summit of White Heat Quad has enough terrain to handle a HSQ?  I don't think so...unless it was intended to move folks to Barker/Locke via Salvation and Obsession/Heats Off.  But even then I don't think it is needed.  I think replacing Tempest would be a better priority.



If its a quad than a HSQ would have a similar capacity to what is there.


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## xlr8r (Sep 27, 2016)

There is no need for a high speed quad to be built to the summit of White Cap as it is an expert peak with hardly any intermediate terrain of the top, and White Heat quad never has a line.  Replacing Tempest makes much more sense as it is longer, and is the primary lift not only from the lodge, but that everyone staying at the Grand Summit and Condos use to start their day.  One adjustment though would be to either cut a new trail, or maybe extend Tempest a bit if it is replaced so that lower Obsession can be skied from the top of the Tempest lift, instead of forcing you to go down Tempest or Jibe to get to White Heat quad.

I also want to bring up a fact that some people might not know, but continuously gets brought up in lots of posts is that just because you build a high speed quad does not mean that capacity is increased.  Not all six packs have more capacity than quads, look at Ragged's six pack as those chairs are spaced very far apart.  And not all quads have more capacity than triples.  It all comes down to how far apart the chairs are spaced.  So while I would like a detachable lift to make Spruce a 4-5 min ride, I do not want the capacity increased.  So I would build a high speed quad with chairs spaced far apart similar to the six pack at Ragged.

Now the other factor to consider is the attraction of high speed lifts.  Why are Barker and Jordan the 2 most popular peaks, mostly because they are the only two served by high speed lifts.  North peak is unique so I am keeping that separate, but it is served by 3 high speed lifts if you count south ridge as part of north peak.  So adding more high speed lifts might decrease the crowding at Jordan and Barker.  I find it odd that some people are suggesting that Barker or Jordan should be replaced by six packs, which is overkill.  IMO the goal should be to spread people away from these lifts by making other areas desirable with high speed lifts.  To me Spruce and Tempest seem like the most sensible places to put new detachable quads in.


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## ss20 (Sep 27, 2016)

Otten's ingenuity is showing... from the Whitecap lodge it is a straight line up to the top of Barker.  If such a Superlift existed, one could start at Whitecap base, ride to the top of Barker, and take the Three Mile Trail to Aurora and have every pod but Jordan/Oz accessible in a one-lift, one-trail journey.  If this Whitecap-Barker Superlift ever came to fruition (with a midstation unload where the current Tempest lift unloads), that side of the mountain would become much more desirable, and the mess of traffic in the Barker-North Peak core would be reduced, as you wouldn't have to pass through that area to get across the resort (unlike today, where you have to take one of the two most popular lifts, the Chondola or the Barker HSQ to get to the other side of the hill).


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## machski (Sep 28, 2016)

On WhiteCap, Tempest is the shortest line, followed by heat and little white cap.  At only 3200' line length, I cannot see the mountain spending the $ to upgrade it to a detach.  I always thought a HSQ would be nice, but it would likely only be used in the morning.  My idea of a TTB HSQ would replace White Heat and if you unload at the mid station as well, provides access to the Grand Summit from base on what is basically beginner terrain on lower starlight.  But again, I think any big upgrades at White Cap are wishful thinking.  That lodge needs to be reimagined/rebuilt before anything lift wise, it is a mess and not much of an attraction to start your day from as is.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2016)

Very true on the lodge.  Even though it is a dump it is typically where I started my day as a passholder.  Nice level to the lodge parking, no lines.  I'm surprised the Tempest chair is only 3200. I would have guessed 4200. It seems like at least a ten minute ride.  I suppose the ride seems longer than it is because the runs off it or down to Barker Basin are short compared to time spent on the chair.


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## dlague (Sep 28, 2016)

machski said:


> On WhiteCap, Tempest is the shortest line, followed by heat and little white cap.  At only 3200' line length, I cannot see the mountain spending the $ to upgrade it to a detach.  I always thought a HSQ would be nice, but it would likely only be used in the morning.  My idea of a TTB HSQ would replace White Heat and if you unload at the mid station as well, provides access to the Grand Summit from base on what is basically beginner terrain on lower starlight.  But again, I think any big upgrades at White Cap are wishful thinking.  That lodge needs to be reimagined/rebuilt before anything lift wise, it is a mess and not much of an attraction to start your day from as is.



First time at SR, we parked and started skiing from there before we realized that the better lodge was on the other side of the hill.  Parking was close and the lift line to get on was short.  After that we went to the other lodge and parking was not an issue - slip the guys monitoring the unloading zone a $20 and we parked in the pass holders area.


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## Jully (Sep 28, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Very true on the lodge.  Even though it is a dump it is typically where I started my day as a passholder.  Nice level to the lodge parking, no lines.  I'm surprised the Tempest chair is only 3200. I would have guessed 4200. It seems like at least a ten minute ride.  I suppose the ride seems longer than it is because the runs off it or down to Barker Basin are short compared to time spent on the chair.



The chair does have a long run out. Tempest/Jibe are nicely pitched trails for about two thirds of it and then become a run outs. 

Revitalizing the area seems like a good idea if they want to focus on the Grand Summit Hotel. Right now both of the SR hotels are in strange locations compared to where they are focusing their efforts at South Ridge, though Jordan is in a way better location as the Jordan Bowl is served by a fast lift and has nice family oriented trails.

The big lift to the top of Barker would be fascinating, but pretty unlikely sadly. It would be a way to focus more on that base area and the hotel though.


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## machski (Sep 28, 2016)

The tempest extension lift has been mulled over for some time.  Funny, most SR skiers would love to see it extended to the top of Locke (which arguably would require a turn or a new line).  Doubt that too.  I can tell you they have been doing work at White Cap this summer.  The old decking tied into the side building off the back has been removed.  Was THE SPOT back when I started skiing there in 1990.  The western expansions have pulled the focus west and White Cap is in limbo with what it should be today.  I have heard several ideas tossed around for White Cap base the last several years.  Still curious to see if any stick.  I do know the mountain is focusing on bringing it's hotels up to Boyne star rating standards.  A lot of work was going on at snow cap this summer.


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## Jully (Sep 28, 2016)

machski said:


> The tempest extension lift has been mulled over for some time.  Funny, most SR skiers would love to see it extended to the top of Locke (which arguably would require a turn or a new line).  Doubt that too.  I can tell you they have been doing work at White Cap this summer.  The old decking tied into the side building off the back has been removed.  Was THE SPOT back when I started skiing there in 1990.  The western expansions have pulled the focus west and White Cap is in limbo with what it should be today.  I have heard several ideas tossed around for White Cap base the last several years.  Still curious to see if any stick.  I do know the mountain is focusing on bringing it's hotels up to Boyne star rating standards.  A lot of work was going on at snow cap this summer.



That is exciting news then. Out of curiosity, what were the plans that you have heard tossed around? I would much rather see the lift go to Locke too, that area is totally underutilized because no one wants to go up the triple.

I'm kind of torn as to revitalizing that area though. With the focus west, it means that there are no crowds over in the far eastern end of the resort. Even on Holidays I could find no lift line at White Heat and especially Tempest when there were substantial lines at Aurora, Barker, Jordan, etc. Revamping that area could lead to more crowds there and that parking lot could fill up too.


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## xlr8r (Sep 28, 2016)

machski said:


> The tempest extension lift has been mulled over for some time.  Funny, most SR skiers would love to see it extended to the top of Locke (which arguably would require a turn or a new line).  Doubt that too.  I can tell you they have been doing work at White Cap this summer.  The old decking tied into the side building off the back has been removed.  Was THE SPOT back when I started skiing there in 1990.  The western expansions have pulled the focus west and White Cap is in limbo with what it should be today.  I have heard several ideas tossed around for White Cap base the last several years.  Still curious to see if any stick.  I do know the mountain is focusing on bringing it's hotels up to Boyne star rating standards.  A lot of work was going on at snow cap this summer.



Extending it to the top off Locke or Barker would be bad IMO none of the peaks besides North should have more than one lift.  If it went to Barker, then it really just becomes an odd transport lift with little lapping ability.  If it goes up Locke, then it would ruin the classic feel Locke has with its narrower trails.  

Just extend it to the top of Monday Mourning would be best i think.  That way Monday Mourning, all of Cascade, Crossbow, and Snowbound to Lower Obsession would be accessible from the top.  I would keep it ending below the Locke mid station as that area with Lower Sunday Punch is a weird intersection.  This new alignment would not require a completely new lift line cut as it only angles slightly to the left of the current tempest lift, so most of it would still be over the tempest trail.  

Sooner rather than later the Locke triple will need to be completely replaced as well, based on all the problem Boyne is having with Borvigs.  Maybe when that happens it could be replaced just with a short fixed lift up T2 aligned like the old T bar with its base near the top of my proposed extended Tempest lift.  The upper half of Locke is laid out like its own mini pod already.  And typically I use Barker to lap Monday Mouring, Lower Sunday Punch etc anyway.  Then the new Tempest lift could be used for uploading downloading early season.


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## Jully (Sep 28, 2016)

That would be a pain for racers to use Locke though as it would require 2 lifts to reach the top of the mountain from the Barker Lodge. If I'm understating your alignment correctly?


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2016)

xlr8r said:


> Extending it to the top off Locke or Barker would be bad IMO none of the peaks besides North should have more than one lift.  If it went to Barker, then it really just becomes an odd transport lift with little lapping ability.  If it goes up Locke, then it would ruin the classic feel Locke has with its narrower trails.
> 
> Just extend it to the top of Monday Mourning would be best i think.  That way Monday Mourning, all of Cascade, Crossbow, and Snowbound to Lower Obsession would be accessible from the top.  I would keep it ending below the Locke mid station as that area with Lower Sunday Punch is a weird intersection.  This new alignment would not require a completely new lift line cut as it only angles slightly to the left of the current tempest lift, so most of it would still be over the tempest trail.
> 
> Sooner rather than later the Locke triple will need to be completely replaced as well, based on all the problem Boyne is having with Borvigs.  Maybe when that happens it could be replaced just with a short fixed lift up T2 aligned like the old T bar with its base near the top of my proposed extended Tempest lift.  The upper half of Locke is laid out like its own mini pod already.  And typically I use Barker to lap Monday Mouring, Lower Sunday Punch etc anyway.  Then the new Tempest lift could be used for uploading downloading early season.



So with this the top of the new tempest would be where the top of the old t-bar was that came up from Barker?


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## deadheadskier (Sep 28, 2016)

That cascade / Monday morning intersection can kind of be a pinball alley as is, I really couldn't imagine a lift unloading there.


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## machski (Sep 28, 2016)

I doubt an extended Tempest lift is ever installed.  What I have heard mulled about with White Cap base is a new lux condo development with a new/smaller lodge to go along with that.  Just looking at how White Cap has been used the last decade, you can tell the resort is trying to figure it out.  Shipyard has been there for a while and the one constant.  For several years, the cafe was run by an outsourced company from town (which pissed many passholder as discounted mountain dining cards were not accepted).  The mountain took it back over 2 years ago?  But it is only open weekends and holidays.  Lodge is open midweek without much service (limited Ski shop is open every day).


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## Smellytele (Sep 28, 2016)

white cap was the lot we used all the time back in the early 90's. They used to have a skating rink there and they used to do sleigh rides there as well. tailgaited in the parking lot - only went in the lodge to use the rest room. only sat in the north peak lodge for a break


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## dolehendrix (Sep 28, 2016)

White cap can be a good deal, unless it's full of high school bus trips. I immediately recall being a 15 year old boy and proceed with caution.


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## Newpylong (Sep 29, 2016)

Rather than extending or replacing any White Cap lifts I think a modest improvement to Tempest with a carpet loader (assuming mechanically the lift is capable of faster FPM) would be the best option with highest ROI for them.

Locke triple has life left in it.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> Rather than extending or replacing any White Cap lifts I think a modest improvement to Tempest with a carpet loader (assuming mechanically the lift is capable of faster FPM) would be the best option with highest ROI for them.
> 
> Locke triple has life left in it.



I think everyone agrees that the carpet option is the most likely; folks were just doing the armchair resort operator thing


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## drjeff (Sep 29, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> I think everyone agrees that the carpet option is the most likely; folks were just doing the armchair resort operator thing



The carpet does make sense the majority of the time in this case, unless SR decides that they need to/want to redevelop/revitalize that part of the resort, then, if for no other reason than so many of the masses that they'd hope to attract to that redeveloped/ revitalized area will respond to the marketing blitz of a new high speed lift vs a new carpet loader (a device that as we all know here on AZ can be very polarizing in its extra line speed worth vs causing more lift stoppages value :smash: )

As I have heard many of my friends who work in marketing departments of various ski areas say, the 2 easiest things for them to market to have significant, tangible impact on revenue generated are fresh powder on weekends and new high speed lifts....


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## thetrailboss (Sep 29, 2016)

drjeff said:


> The carpet does make sense the majority of the time in this case, unless SR decides that they need to/want to redevelop/revitalize that part of the resort, then, if for no other reason than so many of the masses that they'd hope to attract to that redeveloped/ revitalized area will respond to the marketing blitz of a new high speed lift vs a new carpet loader (a device that as we all know here on AZ can be very polarizing in its extra line speed worth vs causing more lift stoppages value :smash: )
> 
> As I have heard many of my friends who work in marketing departments of various ski areas say, the 2 easiest things for them to market to have significant, tangible impact on revenue generated are fresh powder on weekends and new high speed lifts....



Exactly.


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## Newpylong (Sep 29, 2016)

I like what ifs.

If I was to replace anything over there I would either A) replace White Heat with a top to bottom HSQ, or B) replace White Heat with a top to bottom high speed quad while also removing Tempest. I bet with a HSQ you can get people over to Barker off the top of White Cap as fast as up Tempest, and that's all that lift really does.

Widen regrade Salvation so you can get anyone off the top to the rest of the mountain. Rework from current bottom of White Heat quad to base because that will be a mixing bowl.


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## machski (Sep 29, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I like what ifs.
> 
> If I was to replace anything over there I would either A) replace White Heat with a top to bottom HSQ, or B) replace White Heat with a top to bottom high speed quad while also removing Tempest. I bet with a HSQ you can get people over to Barker off the top of White Cap as fast as up Tempest, and that's all that lift really does.
> 
> Widen regrade Salvation so you can get anyone off the top to the rest of the mountain. Rework from current bottom of White Heat quad to base because that will be a mixing bowl.



The only thing with a TTB high speed quad and remove Tempest is you loose your easier ski-out from the Grand Summit off Tempest Quad to overeasy.  Of course, if the Monday Morning racing Poma is ever installed, we loose Over Easy as a trail cannot run under a new surface lift line.  Then again, I have heard a new elbow may be cut between Cascades and Wildfire if the Poma becomes reality to maintain an easier route down.

Still, other than a Tempest carpet (and Tempest has had past electrical issues they wanted to iron out first which I think they have), I think there are other pressing needs at the resort ahead of a complete revitalization of White Cap.  I like it quiet, especially when we have snow to open Chutzpah and Hardball which are now TTB off White Heat Quad.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 29, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I like what ifs.
> 
> If I was to replace anything over there I would either A) replace White Heat with a top to bottom HSQ, or B) replace White Heat with a top to bottom high speed quad while also removing Tempest. I bet with a HSQ you can get people over to Barker off the top of White Cap as fast as up Tempest, and that's all that lift really does.
> 
> Widen regrade Salvation so you can get anyone off the top to the rest of the mountain. Rework from current bottom of White Heat quad to base because that will be a mixing bowl.



Personally I wouldn't want to deal with the run-out a ttb Heat lift would create. I like how it is positioned. Though as someone said, you could do a midstation at the base of heat, which would be big money, but we are talking what ifs so what the heck right?

I don't think removing Tempest chair is a good idea. Top of Heat can get pretty windy. If that lift goes on hold, all the Grand and Condo people would be stuck taking a shuttle to Barker or South ridge.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 30, 2016)

Speaking of White Heat, this is an interesting read:

https://sundayrivermaine.wordpress.com/2016/02/29/winching-white-heat/


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## Jully (Oct 6, 2016)

Bump.

Anyone see this article about ski lift accidents? Given the number of actual deaths that have occurred from chairlift malfunctions, I'd say the title is rather ridiculously inflammatory...

http://www.outsideonline.com/2069911/your-local-chairlift-could-kill-you


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## thetrailboss (Oct 6, 2016)

Jully said:


> Bump.
> 
> Anyone see this article about ski lift accidents? Given the number of actual deaths that have occurred from chairlift malfunctions, I'd say the title is rather ridiculously inflammatory...
> 
> http://www.outsideonline.com/2069911/your-local-chairlift-could-kill-you



Consider the source.  A good magazine, but they are looking for clickbait.  The fact is, though, that a lot of these lifts are getting old and some reaching the end of their useful lives.  With a flat if not declining market, and only two lift manufacturers who control prices, it is hard to see lots of lift installs.


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## Jully (Oct 6, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Consider the source.  A good magazine, but they are looking for clickbait.  The fact is, though, that a lot of these lifts are getting old and some reaching the end of their useful lives.  With a flat if not declining market, and only two lift manufacturers who control prices, it is hard to see lots of lift installs.



Additionally accident rates are still extremely low. There were hints of conspiracy theory throughout the article when they mentioned that there have been substantially more accidents reported in Europe. Definite clickbait.


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## SkiFanE (Oct 6, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> That cascade / Monday morning intersection can kind of be a pinball alley as is, I really couldn't imagine a lift unloading there.[/QUOTE
> 
> In our house it's the cluster fuck corner.   When kids are around its just "the cluster" lol. I've heard cluster fuck junction is the newer sibling created at Grand Rapids/Amex merge under chondola.  Either is a nightmare - if you're gonna be injured at SR, 50% chance it's one of these spots.
> 
> Im the minority that think carpet loaders are a big waste of $. Maybe not for a weekday warrior (UHK) - but weekends it screws up more than it helps. I'd rather have other improvements with the $.


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## Jully (Oct 6, 2016)

The Grand Rapids Amex merge is awful. Worse IMO coming from Amex as opposed to Grand Rapids.


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## Hawk (Mar 31, 2017)

I hear your concern.  It is similar to a lot of places as far as capital investment.  I think it shows uncertainty in the future.  Anyway I am not a huge fan of the snow they blew on the Spruce area.  Before they blew that area people were lapping trails with the natural snow and it was really soft and good.  The snow making actually made it worse.  That is until we had bad weather and it got all iced up and additional soft snow and grooming was needed but that is new England I guess.  Back earlier in the season when I visited my friends there, that was all we pretty much did.  Traffic was non existent and we skied soft bumps.  really good stuff.


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## machski (Mar 31, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Okay, I have some rumor news about the replacement of the Spruce lift. I was riding the lift with a couple officers of some condo associations on mountain. As such, Sunday River is a little more candid with them. Still this is almost fourth hand coming from me, so I am sure something is lost in translation.  But here goes.
> 
> Apparently, an insurance payment is due to be made on April 1 for the Spruce Lift. This payment will not cover the full cost of replacement. CNL has sold out to Och-Ziff. Och-Ziff has indicated they have no interest in paying for any portion of the replacement chair. The entire balance of the chair replacement will need to be funded entirely by Boyne. (Again, all of this is about 4th hand from me, take it for what it is worth.
> 
> ...


Sorry, not even close to the situation.  Spruce will be replaced this year, O-Z not a factor here.  O-Z is not the owner yet, the transaction has not closed so that is part of any investment on their part's issue.  

As for Barker, we are likely stuck with that for a while yet.  The most recent event had a part that had to be replaced and it was an original Yan part.  Since they have been out of business for two decades now, replacement parts for those components don't sit on shelves.  They are fabricated on an as needed basis.  Thus the extended downtime.  I don't buy the notion that maintenance at SR is up to snuff.  I believe it is, but things break.  And unfortunately when Barker breaks, many of those parts are Yan parts requiring fabrication of a replacement.

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## machski (Mar 31, 2017)

Uphillklimber, crazy story.  That said, the gas tank fuel pump is not a major unit that directly affects the skiing product.  The ski business, especially in the east, is a very narrow margin business.  I can totally see holding off replacing that pump until it fails, trying to milk every penny out of that.

When it comes to lifts, I believe they do a good job on maintenance.  Mechanical stuff fails at odd times, I fly corporate jets and see it all the time in my planes I fly.  Stuff breaks.  A lot of that stuff we can defer and fly with inop because of system redundancy, and I know the mountain does all it can to keep lifts turning if they have adequate redundancy when components fail out.  But some need to be replaced immediately before further operation.  It stinks but is what it is.  SR is not the only major resort in the east with these problems.  I would love an entire fleet of new lifts, but that is just not practical (unless you're vail resorts).

There are some excellent CapEx projects in the works at SR (though no lifts beyond Spruce) but aside from Spruce, they will have to wait for the asset sale transfer to be complete.  There is likely a courtship period as well with O-Z that will need to play out, but I remain hopeful that this will be a good partnership and SR will continue to improve.

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## freeski (Mar 31, 2017)

Not replacing the gas pump was a poor business decision. What did the pump cost in labor/travel once it failed. Also, the employees aware of the situation feel like they're working for idiots.


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## doublediamond (Apr 1, 2017)

And also the labor costs associated with the 10-20 minute pumps. That's 10-20 minutes anyone with a vehicle could be doing other work.

What year was this? End-ASC era? Boyne?


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## nanjil (Apr 1, 2017)

from your description not making/planning for prompt repairs does not seem to make normal financial sense. Then the rational must be  some kind of 'alternate facts' book keeping


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## machski (Apr 1, 2017)

Don't know what to say.  Even if things didn't run smoothly with your examples, I still think it is a bit of a leap to then say they runs the lifts the same way.  If they ever did, I would hope the events of the past decade at a sister resort have changed that.  With that said, mechanical parts break.  You cannot change them all out ahead of time, some will give out well in advance of expected time intervals.  The mountain infrastructure is not as young as it once was, it is something the mountain and we as guests will have to deal with.  I know MGMT does not think Locke is a good backup for Barker, it is better than nothing.  If Barker continues to act up often over the next few seasons, I would think a replacement will be moved up in priority.

As for other areas having similar tails as yours, I'm sure it happens  in slightly different scenarios more than many of us realize.  The ski business has very expensive infrastructure assets installed or on hill and it is a very slim margin business.  And with season pass pricing pressures now heating up in the Northeast to lower prices, this scenario may be on the uptick playlist across NE.

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## machski (Apr 1, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> As far as making the leap from the two stories I shared with you to lift maintenance, I knew one of the lift mechanics pretty well. He did a good job, but also expressed some frustration over how they are told to stretch out the equipment. From the bean counters point of view, you milk everything out that you can out of every part. From the mechanics point of view, you consider changing it when it (well, not when it loses its shine), when things start to get near the edge of accepted tolerances. Bean counters say, when it reaches the edge of tolerance, not near....
> 
> Tough situation.....





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## machski (Apr 1, 2017)

machski said:


> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


Happens in most industries with mechanical equipment.  Trust me, I see it all the time in mine.  A tire probably has 10 more good landings in it.  Don't change it now, ride it out til it is fully used up treadwise.  Stuff isn't cheap to replace, that's for sure.

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## doublediamond (Apr 1, 2017)

If your story is Boyne-era, it probably has to due with the complicated relationship of CNL owning the assets and Boyne owning an operating lease. Boyne probably would be stuck with the bill replacing something not broken, while if it was broken CNL would pick up the tab.


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## bigbob (Apr 2, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> I tend to agree with you Machski. It is hard to know when a cog will just fail.I do have to say this about the mountain. I greatly respect that they went all over the mountain, checking every lift and tower, and bolting some down to when anything was found to be questionable. I mean after what happened at the Loaf over the last half dozen years, and what happened in the middle of Summer, I felt they were very proactive going around and securing everything found wanting and changing out the Locke upper station.
> 
> I don't mean to sound like a River hater, overall, I am very satisfied with them. Could they do things better? Sure. Everyone has a different expectation of what that level should be, mixing in available cash and resources to arrive there. I'd just like to see a higher level of maintenance. But I have not put myself into position to make those decisions.
> 
> ...



I would tend to believe this was ordered by the Maine Tramway board rather than being done by the goodness of their heart. Squaw had to do this to their one lift also. I was also impressed seeing I done however.


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## Newpylong (Apr 2, 2017)

At least in New Hampshire the tramway board now requires any footings (towers, terminals, bullwheels, etc) that are anchored on ledge to A) show from the as-built what type of pins and grout were used and B) be certified by an aerial tramway engineer that they are safe to operate. It is possible SR was a combination as the Maine board likely requires similar and the top terminal of Locke could not be vouched for.


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## benski (Apr 2, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> At least in New Hampshire the tramway board now requires any footings (towers, terminals, bullwheels, etc) that are anchored on ledge to A) show from the as-built what type of pins and grout were used and B) be certified by an aerial tramway engineer that they are safe to operate. It is possible SR was a combination as the Maine board likely requires similar and the top terminal of Locke could not be vouched for.



Does Maine even have a tramway board and if so do they do anything? They don't seem very effective.


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## Hawk (Apr 3, 2017)

From what I have seen it looks like the rebar was the failure point as it decayed and then pulled out from the grout.  The pics show bare rebar with no sign of any grout.  this was confirmed by a friend that hiked up there to see the mess.  If they used epoxy coated rebar this probably would not have happened.  But Hind site is 20/20.  I am sure they thought when they built that lift that it would never failed.


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## machski (Apr 18, 2017)

Just in case anyone was doubting:



Vi

The 2016/17 season may be winding down as we make our way to our annual last day on May 1, but we’re getting ready to kick off 2017/18 by breaking ground on the new Spruce Peak Triple chairlift.

We’re thrilled to announce that construction on the new lift will begin next month, thanks to the support of our parent company, Boyne Resorts, and our new financial partner, Och-Ziff Capital Management Group.

As we shared earlier, the new lift will be a $2.1 million dollar, fixed-grip triple chairlift built in the same location as the original lift, which will make the ride faster and more comfortable. As an ode to the original, we intend to keep the name “Spruce Peak Triple.”*Our estimated construction timeline is six months, which coincides nicely with our early-season operating plan.

We sincerely appreciate your patience this winter and look forward to celebrating this new addition with you next season. In the meantime, you can follow construction progress on our*First Chair blog.

Thanks for being a passholder.

Sincerely,

Dana Bullen
Resort President & General Manager



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## doublediamond (Apr 18, 2017)

Why so cheap? What's being reused? Triples and drive terminal?


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## chuckstah (Apr 18, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> Why so cheap? What's being reused? Triples and drive terminal?


No idea why it's so cheap, but the only thing that will most definitely be reused is the loading carpet,  IMO.  Everything else needs to be replaced. 

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## thetrailboss (Apr 18, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> Why so cheap? What's being reused? Triples and drive terminal?



Fixed grips are cheaper, in part, because there is more competition from other manufacturers besides Poma and Doppelmayr.  Also, they're cheaper to build. Those two will build a fixed grip with less margin in order to secure a detach job later on where there is more mark up because only those two make them. 

$2.1 mill is in line with what I figured. 


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## benski (Apr 18, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Fixed grips are cheaper, in part, because there is more competition from other manufacturers besides Poma and Doppelmayr.  Also, they're cheaper to build. Those two will build a fixed grip with less margin in order to secure a detach job later on where there is more mark up because only those two make them.
> 
> $2.1 mill is in line with what I figured.
> 
> ...



Who else builds fix grips? Didn't Skytrac get bought by Doppelmayr.


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## ss20 (Apr 18, 2017)

benski said:


> Who else builds fix grips? Didn't Skytrac get bought by Doppelmayr.



I think they were bought by Poma, not Dopp.  

Fixed grips have a used market- so there's competition beyond the two lift manufacturers.  With the shorter lifespan of detachables, there is a very small market for re-installs, almost forcing mountains to buy new.  

The $$$ Figure for the Sunny D Quad at Sugarbush is in- $1.3m, made new by Doppelmayr.


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## doublediamond (Apr 19, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Fixed grips are cheaper, in part, because there is more competition from other manufacturers besides Poma and Doppelmayr.  Also, they're cheaper to build. Those two will build a fixed grip with less margin in order to secure a detach job later on where there is more mark up because only those two make them.
> 
> $2.1 mill is in line with what I figured.
> 
> ...



The going rate for an ~3700-foot FG lift is $3M. That's what both Sugarloaf and Sugarbush paid for Skyline and Valley House Quads, while the Mittersill Double was $2.6M and 4000 feet.

Spruce is longer at ~4300 feet.  $2.1M is a massive discount.


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## doublediamond (Apr 19, 2017)

ss20 said:


> The $$$ Figure for the Sunny D Quad at Sugarbush is in- $1.3m, made new by Doppelmayr.



That's in line with other 2000-foot quads.


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## doublediamond (Apr 19, 2017)

benski said:


> Who else builds fix grips? Didn't Skytrac get bought by Doppelmayr.



Partek still builds almost-new fixed grips in low quantities, like one every other year.  Dopp bought them out but as long as the lift isn't 100% new, Partek can still build them.


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## Hawk (Apr 19, 2017)

They are probably reusing the towers and the infrastructure at the base.


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## WJenness (Apr 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> They are probably reusing the towers and the infrastructure at the base.



All of the towers and the two terminals have been taken down. (well, one took itself down, I guess you could say).

The only things standing currently are the loading carpet and the lift shack at the base.

I have some pictures, let me dig...


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## Hawk (Apr 19, 2017)

I understand they took it all down. They were afraid that the bases were not all installed properly but the steel towers and the base terminal were in good shape.  Why not pour new bases and reuse the pieces?


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## WJenness (Apr 19, 2017)

Pictures - Taken Feb 16, 2017

Summit: 






Base:


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## WJenness (Apr 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> I understand they took it all down. They were afraid that the bases were not all installed properly but the steel towers and the base terminal were in good shape.  Why not pour new bases and reuse the pieces?



Fair, they may... We'll see I guess.

As for the base terminal, where they're talking about a faster ride, I expect that means they are replacing the drive (which was in the base terminal), and I've seen / read that it is more efficient to put the drive at the top of the line (but I don't really know), so if they're doing that, they wouldn't need as big of a base terminal.

-w


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## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2017)

benski said:


> Who else builds fix grips? Didn't Skytrac get bought by Doppelmayr.



Partek I think is still independent.  That might have been bought years ago though.  There's another company out here in SLC that is run by former Doppelmayr staff but I can't recall the name.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 19, 2017)

It's Skytrac that is still independent IIRC.  Partek I think was bought in like 2004 but that guy is trying again to do his own thing.


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## Newpylong (Apr 19, 2017)

Skytrac is not independent, they were bought last year by Poma due to their fixed grip offerings. Partek was bought by Dopp 10 years or so ago. Though both still do installs largely seperate from their parent companies.

Poma and Dopp are absolutely the only players left in the new or the near new market here, which is what SR is doing. You could also say LST could provide surface lifts to the North American market now as well.

Skytrans and several others will only do retrofits and relocations only.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 19, 2017)

WJenness said:


> Fair, they may... We'll see I guess.
> 
> As for the base terminal, where they're talking about a faster ride, I expect that means they are replacing the drive (which was in the base terminal), and I've seen / read that it is more efficient to put the drive at the top of the line (but I don't really know), so if they're doing that, they wouldn't need as big of a base terminal.
> 
> -w


I heard it was sold to another small ski area (possibly in Maine) but can not find anything on line about that?


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## tumbler (Apr 19, 2017)

WJenness said:


> Fair, they may... We'll see I guess.
> 
> As for the base terminal, where they're talking about a faster ride, I expect that means they are replacing the drive (which was in the base terminal), and I've seen / read that it is more efficient to put the drive at the top of the line (but I don't really know), so if they're doing that, they wouldn't need as big of a base terminal.
> 
> You then have to run power to the top drive, more $$$


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## ss20 (Apr 19, 2017)

tumbler said:


> WJenness said:
> 
> 
> > Fair, they may... We'll see I guess.
> ...


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## machski (Apr 19, 2017)

Hawk said:


> They are probably reusing the towers and the infrastructure at the base.


I would say doubtful on the towers being reused.  These towers were not the bolt on to the base type, they were put in the hole and cement poured around the tubes.  They had to be cut off the bases, so I seriously doubt they will be reused.  When SR put in the North Peak Express, they did reuse more than half the towers, but they were left standing in their concrete bases.  Had they planned to do that with Spruce, those towers would have been left standing which did not happen.

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## Jully (Apr 19, 2017)

Reuse the chairs themselves? They were in fine shape. Maybe some of the sheaves or bullwheels? Even the drive itself even if the terminal was taken down. Wasnt that drive recently retrofitted or even new?


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## machski (Apr 20, 2017)

Jully said:


> Reuse the chairs themselves? They were in fine shape. Maybe some of the sheaves or bullwheels? Even the drive itself even if the terminal was taken down. Wasnt that drive recently retrofitted or even new?


I think the drive had been overhauled in the not too distant past.  The chairs will not be reused, they dropped those and let them tumble when they dropped the rope.  In fact, at least one chair was still on the hill this winter, just above where the line crosses upper risky.  My bet is entirely new (aside from the loading carpet).  I assume the physical counterweight pit will be filled in and the frame box taken down as that is still standing.

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