# The Industry View on Spring Skiing



## joshua segal (Mar 30, 2015)

It's interesting how modern snowmaking has pushed back the start of the ski season.  Prior to the snowmaking era, Christmas was at most marginal skiing.  The ski season really was Jan. 15 to Mar. 15.  As Killington began pushing the envelope with snowmaking, not only did Christmas become one of the biggest weeks of the season, but the big players also brought Thanksgiving on board as a full-fledged holiday weekend.

And yet, there has been no real push to extend the season in the spring.  Modern snowmaking really provides an advertise-able and a high quality marketable product through mid-April.  I hear excuses, but the truth is, beyond Killington, (almost) nobody seriously tries - or they try once, without advertising, don't get a crowd (or get rain) and say, "Gee, that didn't work."

Now I've been to Killington in late May.  While there is no lift line on the Superstar chair, the downhill capacity of the one open trail is pretty much tested to its limit.  People in this forum recognize that the best 2 months of New England skiing is from Feb. 15 to April 15.  

What is preventing the ski area operators from getting out of their pre-snowmaking thinking and trying to market their product?


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 30, 2015)

Most of the casual skiers don't care once it starts to warm up and the snow melts.  They are ready to move on to other things.  


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

Exactly.  It's cold during Christmas.  It's not cold in April.  


.


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## joshua segal (Mar 30, 2015)

The idea of "not cold" is not supported by the facts.  Yesterday it wasn't cold and we had some of the longest lift lines of the season.  Blue skies and sunshine bring out skiers in January or April.

There are no crowds on the cold-rainy days in January, but the areas have already booked pre-paid programs, so the guests come out any way.  I suspect if there was some March/April marketing...


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## Savemeasammy (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm surprised to hear you say the lines were "long" yesterday.  

I wonder if it was a combination of - A: pent up demand.  We've had a lot of weekends with less than ideal ski weather this year; and, B:  no ones lawn has melted off yet.  If you can't do your spring yard work, you might as well ski?!


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## ss20 (Mar 30, 2015)

I've seen more and more people out later in the season this year than in years past.  Hopefully the old trend is changing.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

Doubt it.  It's a factor of snow still being on the ground in the flatlands.  Usually by now lots of golf courses are opening, athletic fields are clear for spring sports to start practices for the kids and as mentioned, spring yard work.

Another factor why spring skiing isn't very popular is many people don't like the heavy wet snow and uneven surfaces.  It's difficult to ski for lower level skiers.


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## Edd (Mar 30, 2015)

I was at Crotched yesterday and it was friggin busy. My friends that go there more often were shocked. There was a big race going on, however. The lift stayed open until 5 and it was still getting a lot of use.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The idea of "not cold" is not supported by the facts.


Go ahead and believe that it is a "fact" that a typical Christmas week is not colder than a typical week in April.  That belief won't be shared by me.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Another factor why spring skiing isn't very popular is many people don't like the heavy wet snow and uneven surfaces.  It's difficult to ski for lower level skiers.


That is a good point as well.  Especially for people who don't get out until late in the day.


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## Smellytele (Mar 30, 2015)

My wife hates spring skiing. I like it sometimes but as others have said warm weather activities start to take precedent. The condition can vary widely through out the day. Crusty firm in the AM, great mid day then too wet later in the day.


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Mar 30, 2015)

People are forward thinking, sometimes irrationally so.  By early April many regions have had a least a taste of warm(-er) and sunny weather and people start thinking of spring stuff, even if the weather overall is still more winterlike. Conversely, by early-mid Dec we usually get at least some cold and snow so people start thinking winter activities, even if the season is not really ready yet (even with snowmaking).  

Far different context, but I think it's the same mentality that leads people to pull the safety bar down *immediately* after sitting on the chair even though it's barely a scary one foot off the ground, yet those same people get fidgety if the bar doesn't come up 20 seconds before the top of the chair, even though you might still be 30ft above ground.  
So anxious to feel like they're moving on to the next task.  As soon as gdf'ing possible. <rolleyes>


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

As great a turnout I'm hearing about this weekend, fast forward to next with warm weather forecasted for late this week and the Easter Holiday on Sunday.  The faucet gets turned off fast for all but the diehards.

Weather is a much bigger gamble for resorts in spring too.  For every nice weather day like yesterday, there's a chance for a rainy day too.


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## St. Bear (Mar 30, 2015)

skifastr said:


> People are forward thinking, sometimes irrationally so.  By early April many regions have had a least a taste of warm(-er) and sunny weather and people start thinking of spring stuff, even if the weather overall is still more winterlike. Conversely, by early-mid Dec we usually get at least some cold and snow so people start thinking winter activities, even if the season is not really ready yet (even with snowmaking).



This is very true. Christmas, and even the push for Thanksgiving works because winter is new and people are looking for a different activity. By the time April comes around, they're sick of winter and snow and are ready to move on, even if it provides some of the more pleasant skiing experience of the year.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2015)

It is sad when you see places like Bolton and Pico will be closing their doors for the season with essentially 98%+ open terrain.

Killington quickly becomes my favorite ski resort in late April / May and then once again come November.


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## hammer (Mar 30, 2015)

All good comments...but now I wonder, do casual golfers get tired of golfing in November?


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## St. Bear (Mar 30, 2015)

hammer said:


> All good comments...but now I wonder, do casual golfers get tired of golfing in November?



Not exactly apples to apples, but I'd say yes.  Spring skiing is actually more accessible to the casual skier (warmer temps, hero snow) while Nov golf is not appealing to the casual golfer (cold and blustery).


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> It is sad when you see places like Bolton and Pico will be closing their doors for the season with essentially 98%+ open terrain.
> 
> Killington quickly becomes my favorite ski resort in late April / May and then once again come November.



To be honest, I have long felt that consolidation of open resorts in the spring is best for a longer season overall.  I'd rather see fewer resorts open and turning a profit so they have an incentive to stay open longer than have many resorts still open and losing money.  

After mid-April, I'm fine with a couple of areas per state remaining open and everyone else throwing in the towel.  If those areas only operate 3-4 days a week, that's fine too. Give me Killington and Jay in VT, Bretton Woods and Wildcat in NH and Sugarloaf for Maine and I'm good.  Then come May; Killington, Wildcat and Sugarloaf is plenty.  We make it to June and Killington is enough.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2015)

I agree, consolidation makes sense.

But mountains should also be flexible -- and I'm just talking about most of the larger mountains, or mountains in areas that naturally benefit from lots of snow -- to remain open in the case, like this year, many of them will be closing with just about 100% terrain.

Good on Pico staying open an extra weekend, but frankly their regular closing date is aimed more towards a weak season in terms of snow. Supposedly this is Bolton's last weekend open (unless they decide to stay open) which is a crying shame considering how much snow there still is.

Not trying to tell anyone how to run their business but I hate to see a mountain covered in snow go to waste and close up before the corn harvest even really gets going.


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## WWF-VT (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> To be honest, I have long felt that consolidation of open resorts in the spring is best for a longer season overall.  I'd rather see fewer resorts open and turning a profit so they have an incentive to stay open longer than have many resorts still open and losing money.
> 
> After mid-April, I'm fine with a couple of areas per state remaining open and everyone else throwing in the towel.  If those areas only operate 3-4 days a week, that's fine too. Give me Killington and Jay in VT, Bretton Woods and Wildcat in NH and Sugarloaf for Maine and I'm good.  Then come May; Killington, Wildcat and Sugarloaf is plenty.  We make it to June and Killington is enough.


 
After mid-April every open mountain is losing money.


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## St. Bear (Mar 30, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> After mid-April every open mountain is losing money.



Yes, on a day-to-day basis.  There is an intrinsic marketing value to staying open late though.  The ones who do stay open wouldn't do it if it weren't some kind of a loss leader.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't have inside knowledge of Killington's financials.  I think between spring pass sales and day tickets, they could turn a profit on weekends.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2015)

As long as the umbrella bar is open and they're only spinning Superstar, I think they manage to get by.


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## Scruffy (Mar 30, 2015)

hammer said:


> All good comments...but now I wonder, do casual golfers get tired of golfing in November?



In the overall population, I think there is a much higher percentage of addicted golfers, than addicted skiers. But, yeah, even golf nuts think it's too cold to play at some point. And that's why so many move south, to play all year. 

The ski bug is easy for most people to put away for the season, once they've skied their number of acceptable times for the year. Once the weather changes, their minds shift to other things. A lot of diehard skiers are also into warmer weather sports; golf, fishing, biking, hiking, etc.. It's easy for them to switch gears. Most people ski because it's winter and they don't want to be bored silly, or their spouse skis, their not diehards.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

Good points.  My folks skied 30-50 days a year for 15+ years.  Once they retired, they moveD to Florida so they can golf year round 4-5 days a week.  They haven't skied since and don't miss it.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> Most of the *most profitable* casual skiers don't care once it starts to warm up and the snow melts.  They are ready to move on to other things.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I edited that for you


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## Domeskier (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't have inside knowledge of Killington's financials.  I think between spring pass sales and day tickets, they could turn a profit on weekends.



I'm planning to help out their bottom line this spring.  Haven't been there since the early nineties.  Can't wait.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

There is another factor that hasn't been discussed here.  When the temperature gets above 50 degrees, I actually prefer other forms of recreational activity, such as riding my bicycle.  It's not a matter of "moving on" as much as it is a matter of a simple preference under those conditions.

I've never given it much thought, but a contributing factor is that ski boots are not designed for warm weather.


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## Domeskier (Mar 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I've never given it much thought, but a contributing factor is that ski boots are not designed for warm weather.



Spring is just about the only time my boots provide me any warmth.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

I've skied in 75 degree weather.  Never have I said, I need to take off for the day as my feet are too hot.  Never heard anyone else have feet too hot to ski either.


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## Razor (Mar 30, 2015)

Thinking in purely economic terms, outside of Killington,   can any other area profit from late spring operations when the only customers are diehards like us who already have season passes?  Where's the value added?  Those who stay open are doing it purely as a public service for the goodwill of their passholders.  Look out west.  Most areas close after the first week of April when, in a normal year, they could stay open well into June.  Sure, some have forest service restrictions, but many just shut down due to lack of interest.  I'll do the Loaf, Wildcat, and K once every year late, then call it quits until next year.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I've skied in 75 degree weather.  Never have I said, I need to take off for the day as my feet are too hot.  Never heard anyone else have feet too hot to ski either.


You are putting words in my mouth.  I never said that my feet were too hot to ski.  What I was saying is that I would rather be in bicycle shoes in 75 degree weather than ski boots.  The key word I used was "preference".


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

Tough to say.  The fact that Wildcat went for it early this year and is pushing for May is a big reason why I'm leaning towards getting a pass there next season instead of Cannon.   Hard to quantify that into daily profits, but I'm sure that's why they push season length at Wildcat.


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## dlague (Mar 30, 2015)

I think the main issue for resorts come April is competing with children's sports.  That alone pulls lots of families away.  I also think that many south of the NH and VT border are inclined to start focusing for biking, golfing, kayaking, etc.  This distraction alone causes people to spread out.  As I have mentioned in the past I have summer Attention Deficit Disorder - I generally want to do it all and in the end do not become good at any thing but get by.  Winter for most is simple skiing/snowbaording is the game - April, not so much.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

IMHO there is definitely some value added for the couple of resorts that stay open the latest.  
Such as:
1) Lots of people like the idea that they can ski in April and May - even if they know deep down inside that they won't.  I am one of those people - at least as far as May is concerned.  I doubt that I would ever ski in May, but _all other things being equal_ I would by a season pass at the resort that is open in May.
2) For some reason, there are people who just like to know that the mountain they are associated with is the biggest and the best.  I am sure that lots of Killington skiers relish in the fact that Killington is the king of spring skiing, even though they don't ski in April or May.  They like the association with that type of mountain, even if they don't partake in the benefit being offered.


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## slatham (Mar 30, 2015)

dlague - I think you hit it - certainly did for my personal situation - kids sport/school activities. I am dying to get up (and I have a place to stay and a seasons pass) but I can't even get a solo trip these past 2 weekends, much less the family up to ski. Even the Easter vacation won't find us skiing, though due to a very unique situation that I am happy is presenting itself. Not sure I can then pull off April 18 or 25, though given the cold they may be viable options.

The other issue with Spring skiing is the weather, even more so than winter. The freeze/thaw cycle can be painful if not played right. I was at Sugarbush 3/14/15 and the 14th was groomers only and we only lucked out on Sunday due to 4-5" up top - though even with that the moguls were still a wee bit firm. 

In fact, I might not have gone up to So Vt this past weekend even if I could. It rained last week and then got very cold without much snow. I am sure yesterday was good with blue bird and warmer, but Sunday is a half day at best. I'll bet Saturday was "firm" or worse. 

But I do want to ski more!


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## KevinF (Mar 30, 2015)

St. Bear said:


> Not exactly apples to apples, but I'd say yes.  Spring skiing is actually more accessible to the casual skier (warmer temps, hero snow) while Nov golf is not appealing to the casual golfer (cold and blustery).



"Spring skiing" and "hero snow" are not two terms I hear used together very often in terms of "casual skiers".

First, casual skiers -- at least as I define that term -- don't ski bumps.

Once a slope gets corn conditions on it, then it doesn't take very long for the surface to become a mess.  Bumps, random piles, etc.  I was at Stowe yesterday.  Lower slopes on Spruce and the gondola were getting pretty soft in the afternoon.  The "casual skiers" I saw looked pretty frustrated.

If the snow doesn't get soft (too cold, too cloudy, whatever) then there's very little I've found that is firmer than thawed, refrozen and groomed out glop.  That stuff can be a "loud" and bouncy ride.

Yes, if you know what you're doing (to some degree) than skiing corn snow becomes a delight...  but if your whole technique is based on being able to slide (as opposed to turn), then slushy snow can be nothing but frustration.  Just like powder days and the often heard lament -- "nothing is groomed".


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## hammer (Mar 30, 2015)

KevinF said:


> "Spring skiing" and "hero snow" are not two terms I hear used together very often in terms of "casual skiers".
> 
> First, casual skiers -- at least as I define that term -- don't ski bumps.
> 
> ...


Slushy snow can be worse than frustration, if one doesn't know how to drive the skis well it can be tough on the knees.


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## Edd (Mar 30, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Tough to say.  The fact that Wildcat went for it early this year and is pushing for May is a big reason why I'm leaning towards getting a pass there next season instead of Cannon.   Hard to quantify that into daily profits, but I'm sure that's why they push season length at Wildcat.



I decided on getting the Peaks pass yesterday after hitting Crotched. I think I'll skip Boyne next year and just go all NH with the Bold / Beautiful pass also.


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## xwhaler (Mar 30, 2015)

Edd said:


> I decided on getting the Peaks pass yesterday after hitting Crotched. I think I'll skip Boyne next year and just go all NH with the Bold / Beautiful pass also.



That makes for great variety and a tremendous season length....nice setup. I'd love the variety of a Peaks Pass but Wildcat is just too far for me to routinely day trip.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

It's a great value for three mountains.  Crotched is a good little place for a quick fix as well.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2015)

hammer said:


> Slushy snow can be worse than frustration, if one doesn't know how to drive the skis well it can be tough on the knees.


My biggest problem, having recently returned to the sport, is that I really don't yet own a good ski for soft snow.  The skis I use right now are just too narrow underfoot.  They cut into the soft snow rather than float on top of it.  I am probably not alone in this regard.  Hopefully I will come across a good off-season deal on some wider skis.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My biggest problem, having recently returned to the sport, is that I really don't yet own a good ski for soft snow.  The skis I use right now are just too narrow underfoot.  They cut into the soft snow rather than float on top of it.  I am probably not alone in this regard.  Hopefully I will come across a good off-season deal on some wider skis.



You don't need wide skis for spring skiing just improve you skills and don't quit until the snow's gone.

Played my cards well this year... still got 7 or 8 days out saving the best for spring. Rossi Phantom 185 80 underfoot will do beautifully.


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## joshua segal (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't think I was asking why any of us chooses to participate (or not) in post-March 15th skiing.  In a pre-snowmaking era, the season ended for most skiers and ski areas in mid-March because we were skiing on mud and hay.  While the available product has changed drastically, why has the industry made no effort to market the product?

If the industry tried it and failed, a post-mortem on why they failed would be appropriate.  The fact that they never tried is what is troubling to me.


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## 180 (Mar 30, 2015)

dlague said:


> I think the main issue for resorts come April is competing with children's sports.  That alone pulls lots of families away.  I also think that many south of the NH and VT border are inclined to start focusing for biking, golfing, kayaking, etc.  This distraction alone causes people to spread out.  As I have mentioned in the past I have summer Attention Deficit Disorder - I generally want to do it all and in the end do not become good at any thing but get by.  Winter for most is simple skiing/snowbaording is the game - April, not so much.




Kids sports have killed spring skiing


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## prsboogie (Mar 30, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> That makes for great variety and a tremendous season length....nice setup. I'd love the variety of a Peaks Pass but Wildcat is just too far for me to routinely day trip.



I picked up the family's Crotched Classic passes yesterday as well, cheaper than my weekender at wawa and more fun to ski. Bonus of 50% off midweek 25% weekends at Attitash Wildcat and Mt Snow is a great bonus as well.


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## KevinF (Mar 30, 2015)

The industry has never tried to market spring skiing because of all the reasons listed above.  Kids are getting into other sports leagues.  Spring skiing is highly variable in terms of conditions and most don't have the skills to deal with it.  People are tired of the driving, etc.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2015)

I'd say the marketing this year for all the various Spring passes has been strong.  I've heard just as much radio advertisement this spring for places like Wawa and Wildcat as what I heard all throughout the winter.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2015)

The harvest will be plentiful this year around.


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## Edd (Mar 30, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> You don't need wide skis for spring skiing just improve you skills and don't quit until the snow's gone.
> 
> Played my cards well this year... still got 7 or 8 days out saving the best for spring. Rossi Phantom 185 80 underfoot will do beautifully.



No, he doesn't NEED it. But, a wider, softer ski would make spring conditions easier and more fun. "Just improve your skills". Got it. Everybody got that?  Improve your skills and skiing will be more fun!  It's so easy you dum dums!


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 30, 2015)

Thanks for the translation Edd, you dum dum!


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 30, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> I'm surprised to hear you say the lines were "long" yesterday.



Seventeen minute lines at Madonna I yesterday, and pretty long lines on Sterling too.  I lapped Madonna II almost all day (literally no lines, bizarrest thing), but the point is, for late March Smuggs was really crowded.



ss20 said:


> I've seen more and more people out later in the season this year than in years past.



It was so cold early in the season, people need to ski late to get their "days" in, and the fact we still have good snow - that IMO is what's going on.



KevinF said:


> Just like *powder days and the often heard lament -- "nothing is groomed"*.



If such people exist, they should hurl themselves into the tar pits.


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## Edd (Mar 30, 2015)

bdfreetuna said:


> Thanks for the translation Edd, you dum dum!



Anytime brother. I'm always available if you're too busy talking weather control with Colonel Sanders and Bigfoot.


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## mister moose (Mar 30, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> I don't think I was asking why any of us chooses to participate (or not) in post-March 15th skiing.  In a pre-snowmaking era, the season ended for most skiers and ski areas in mid-March because we were skiing on mud and hay.  While the available product has changed drastically, why has the industry made no effort to market the product?
> 
> If the industry tried it and failed, a post-mortem on why they failed would be appropriate.  The fact that they never tried is what is troubling to me.


.

I wouldn't say they never tried. Killington has events scheduled and promoted into May.  Many hills do festivals and pond skimming.


PROS:
It's not cold.
Parties
Bands on the deck
Soft snow
Soft bumps
Low rates

CONS:
Soft snow
Soft bumps
Rainy weekends


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## The Sneak (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't get the urge to golf in muddy flatlands in 55 F temps when you could be ripping up the mtn for another month. I lose my few ski partners around the end of March every year BC of golf.

I mean, all I wanna do once the season is truly over is ride my bicycle. But I know that can wait...there's a long, long offseason and missing out on a beautiful spring skiing day to golf or ride bikes is just incomprehensible given the 6 or 7 or 8 month layoff.

I get so bummed out when the season is ending. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joshua segal (Mar 31, 2015)

mister moose said:


> .
> 
> I wouldn't say they never tried. Killington has events scheduled and promoted into May.  Many hills do festivals and pond skimming.
> 
> ...


I think I made it clear that Killington was the exception and that they have been very successful.  When it became clear in the mid-90s that "June 1 skiing" was routine, they added (or maybe replaced) their May 1st festivities with June 1st activities.

"Festivals and pond skimming" remain very successful spring promotions.  The problem is, as snowmaking has allowed for longer seasons, the dates for "Festivals and pond skimming" have NOT been moved 2 to 4 weeks later into the spring.


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## ScottySkis (Mar 31, 2015)

In mid 90s I know Hunter staying open to May and B beyond.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 31, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The problem is, as snowmaking has allowed for longer seasons, the dates for "Festivals and pond skimming" have NOT been moved 2 to 4 weeks later into the spring.


The last two pond-skimming events have been held on very cold days.  It would have been nice to see them held later in light of the weather.


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## Domeskier (Mar 31, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> It was so cold early in the season, people need to ski late to get their "days" in, and the fact we still have good snow - that IMO is what's going on.



That's part of the reason I only have 6 days so far.  Couldn't motivate myself to get out in that cold.  Also, I prefer spring conditions, so most of my days are in the spring anyway.


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## slipshod (Mar 31, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> There is another factor that hasn't been discussed here.  When the temperature gets above 50 degrees, I actually prefer other forms of recreational activity, such as riding my bicycle.  It's not a matter of "moving on" as much as it is a matter of a simple preference under those conditions.
> 
> I've never given it much thought, but a contributing factor is that ski boots are not designed for warm weather.


Cycling for me is just something to do when you can't go skiing. I like it, but I love to ski. And my ski season won't end until they shut down the last lift, which sadly is coming right up.


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## 4aprice (Mar 31, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> I don't think I was asking why any of us chooses to participate (or not) in post-March 15th skiing.  In a pre-snowmaking era, the season ended for most skiers and ski areas in mid-March because we were skiing on mud and hay.  While the available product has changed drastically, why has the industry made no effort to market the product?
> 
> If the industry tried it and failed, a post-mortem on why they failed would be appropriate.  The fact that they never tried is what is troubling to me.



I don't think it's marketed because skiing was never intended to be a year round sport or business.  One of the biggest obstacles is retaining people who will actually operate the areas.  Seasonal employees are just that seasonal.  As a business you are not going to keep on employees who may or may not be actually working.  A lot of resort employees out west are on contracts as well, that along with land leases with the Feds, dictate when operations for the season cease.

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


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## Grizzly Adams (Mar 31, 2015)

as soon as grass is visable and temps. hit above 40 in the flats, people forget there's snow in the mountains. I'll be taking this coming weekend off but cannot wait for the other 3 in April, looking forward to some pond skims and spring fests!


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## Smellytele (Mar 31, 2015)

Grizzly Adams said:


> as soon as grass is visable and temps. hit above 40 in the flats, people forget there's snow in the mountains. I'll be taking this coming weekend off but cannot wait for the other 3 in April, looking forward to some pond skims and spring fests!



I am amazed at how many areas already had their pond skims


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## machski (Mar 31, 2015)

I can't believe the lot of you who feel the industry has not really tried to market spring skiing.  For real?  Jay has been pushing its spring product for several years now.  Sugarloaf has had Reggae fest mid April for years anchoring its push for May.  Sunday River in the 90's pushed towards memorial day and while they dialed back from May, they are pushing into it again this year with Saturday Concerts at South Ridge apres ski, Parrot head, and a tailgating festival.  Geesh, whether we like not or not, mid April on is a small market to play for.


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## machski (Mar 31, 2015)

And then there is Killington.  Sure, it sneezed under Powdr at first, but I think they are marketing spring quite strongly now.  And superstar will not be the only option in May from what I saw yesterday.


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## Scruffy (Mar 31, 2015)

machski said:


> ... whether we like not or not, mid April on is a small market to play for.



Exactly. The post-mortem Josh wants has already been done. Any ski resort still in business today, knows their customers and how to market their product and run their business, otherwise they'd be out of business - there's no room for error these days.

Come April, any ski resort that had a profitable year wants to shutdown before the bleeding starts. Any, that had an unprofitable year, wants to shutdown and stop the bleeding. Now, some, Killington for example, have carved out a niche staying open longer with limited trails and services, but if all the rest followed suit, Killington would be closing earlier.


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## joshua segal (Mar 31, 2015)

To make Thanksgiving a viably marketed product, most ski areas that play for this market actually shoot for a November 15th opening.  It is a needed buffer to convince the real Thanksgiving customers that there really is a product.  The best information that I have is that Killington is profitable into May.  They accomplish that by pushing the out the end of the season and MARKETING.  

Show me a ski area that has tried marketing a late season product (more than a one-shot deal) and not built a clientele for that market.

And scruffy, the 600+ area list of NELSAP areas plus the large quantity of areas always in or on the brink of Chapter 11, plus the demise of ASC, Intrawest, etc. is good evidence that many ski resort (and mega corporations), some still in business today DO NOT know their customers and DO NOT KNOW how to market their product and run their business.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 31, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Show me a ski area that has tried marketing a late season product (more than a one-shot deal) and not built a clientele for that market.
> 
> .



Well Sugarloaf has marketed themselves as King of Spring forever.  All of their marketing talks of how much snow they get in April.

They throw the biggest party in the Northeast skiing industry with Reggaefest.  Yes it's bigger than the BMMC most years.

Do they have a clientele?  only when the weather's good.

I've seen Reggeafest weekends where there are minimal people there and others where it's been a mad house.  We've had AZ summits when it's been a ghost town with only 20 trails open the first weekend in April.  In fact, that experience is why we now hold the summit in early February.  

The weather is simply too volatile in the spring and the profit margins too small in this industry for most areas to go for it.   

This really seems obvious to everyone in the thread despite most of us being people who ski into late April if not May.   Not sure why it seems so hard for you to accept why many smart business people have been closing their ski areas in April for decades.


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## mister moose (Mar 31, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> I think I made it clear that Killington was the exception and that they have been very successful.  When it became clear in the mid-90s that "June 1 skiing" was routine, they added (or maybe replaced) their May 1st festivities with June 1st activities.
> 
> "Festivals and pond skimming" remain very successful spring promotions.  The problem is, as snowmaking has allowed for longer seasons, the dates for "Festivals and pond skimming" have NOT been moved 2 to 4 weeks later into the spring.



Both early and late season are the far shoulders on the bell curve.  More marketing has limited results.  There is room for only a few resorts after April 15.   

Once the snow gets mushy half the people leave.  They can't ski it.  Then when grooming stops it drops in half again since large slush  bump skiing is an acquired taste.


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## raisingarizona (Apr 1, 2015)

Most people are done with skiing by March. They are dreaming about being on a beach. The numbers that count at east coast areas come from the nearby urban areas, they want to go skiing during the early winter months but by spring they are completely over it. This is why Thanksgiving counts so much. The skiing isn't usually that good but if it's open they will still go. Sure, diehards will still ski in the late spring but they are generally season pass holders, not big money spenders. The opinions of people on a ski forum aren't very substantial to a ski area marketing person. The #'s just don't add up.


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## joshua segal (Apr 1, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> Most people are done with skiing by March. They are dreaming about being on a beach. The numbers that count at east coast areas come from the nearby urban areas, they want to go skiing during the early winter months but by spring they are completely over it. This is why Thanksgiving counts so much. The skiing isn't usually that good but if it's open they will still go. Sure, diehards will still ski in the late spring but they are generally season pass holders, not big money spenders. The opinions of people on a ski forum aren't very substantial to a ski area marketing person. The #'s just don't add up.


Unless you are a ski area marketing guy and have some serious numbers to back up what you said, your opinion is based on your trust of "the prevailing wisdom." And all I am saying is that the prevailing wisdom has never been tested.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Unless you are a ski area marketing guy and have some serious numbers to back up what you said, your opinion is based on your trust of "the prevailing wisdom." And all I am saying is that the prevailing wisdom has never been tested.



Do you have data to back up your claim that the prevailing wisdom has never been tested??


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## AdironRider (Apr 1, 2015)

Rough translation of Joshua Segal: I don't believe you as this completely undermines my point. The internet version of sticking one's head in the sand.


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## SkiFanE (Apr 1, 2015)

machski said:


> I can't believe the lot of you who feel the industry has not really tried to market spring skiing.  For real?  Jay has been pushing its spring product for several years now.  Sugarloaf has had Reggae fest mid April for years anchoring its push for May.  Sunday River in the 90's pushed towards memorial day and while they dialed back from May, they are pushing into it again this year with Saturday Concerts at South Ridge apres ski, Parrot head, and a tailgating festival.  Geesh, whether we like not or not, mid April on is a small market to play for.



In the Boston area, marketing is dead. No more 93No billboards advertising Boyne. No more radio slots. Maybe they market to diehards, but not the bread and butter day ticketers, they are done.  Casual skiers are just that - they like skiing, the fun atmosphere, something to do In winter...they have moved on for sure...to their real thing or other casual thing. 

Still a foot of snow in my yard and big snowbanks at driveway/road - can't believe season is nearing end - Argh.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2015)

A summer comparison would be Cape Cod in June vs in September.   

On the weekends in June, Cape Cod beaches start to get really busy. This despite super cold water temperatures still.   Fast forward to September and the day time temps are still beautiful,  the water temps WAY warmer than June, the hotel rooms half the price; just an overall better beach experience.  September is arguably the best month of the year to visit the Cape and nobody goes.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> September is arguably the best month of the year to visit the Cape and nobody goes.



There's no school June, July, and August, and there's school in September.  That's a big factor as well.


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## witch hobble (Apr 1, 2015)

Industry view:

holiday and vacation week skiers = $

mid week and spring skiers: ¢


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 1, 2015)

witch hobble said:


> Industry view:
> 
> holiday and vacation week skiers = $
> 
> mid week and spring skiers: ¢



I think that's more the reality than a view.


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## Jully (Apr 1, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's no school June, July, and August, and there's school in September.  That's a big factor as well.



Exactly! There's no school in February and March, but there's school in April and May, so of course people don't ski as much.


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## yeggous (Apr 1, 2015)

Jully said:


> Exactly! There's no school in February and March, but there's school in April and May, so of course people don't ski as much.



I still don't understand why ski areas close mid-week during April school vacation. Seriously blows my mind.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Apr 1, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> There's no school June, July, and August, and there's school in September.  That's a big factor as well.



You're missing my point.

School factors in very little in my point.  School goes to about the 20th of June in New England before letting out for summer.  However, what I said was WEEKENDS get very busy in June on the Cape.  School doesn't factor into weekends in June, just like it doesn't factor into weekends in September (outside of kids sporting events for both periods).

July and August was never brought up and are irrelevant to my point.  

June on Cape Cod is like November and December skiing in New England.  The conditions really aren't that good, but it gets super busy and towards the end of June on the beach or December in the mountains, resorts charge HUGE money. 

September on Cape Cod is like March / April in the mountains.  The beach conditions are incredible in comparison to June, prices are way more affordable, but no one goes.  

September weekends should be WAY busier on the Cape than they are in June, but that's just not the case.  April weekends in ski country should be WAY busier than December.  In both cases they aren't because people have moved on from those seasons.


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## Jully (Apr 2, 2015)

yeggous said:


> I still don't understand why ski areas close mid-week during April school vacation. Seriously blows my mind.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



I've gone with family during April school vacation in MA before. The last time I went with a group for a few days in northern NH, I loved it, but there were no crowds at all. However, the people I was with thought the skiing was awful. They couldn't stand the spring conditions. The family market targeted during school vacation weeks just isn't going to enjoy spring conditions near the end of April and aren't going to go skiing.


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## Jully (Apr 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You're missing my point.
> 
> School factors in very little in my point.  School goes to about the 20th of June in New England before letting out for summer.  However, what I said was WEEKENDS get very busy in June on the Cape.  School doesn't factor into weekends in June, just like it doesn't factor into weekends in September (outside of kids sporting events for both periods).
> 
> ...



I don't think, unless we've gotten a massive dump in early December, that mid to early December weekends actually get that busy. School vacation week is a completely different story, but many resorts have something between 1/4 and 1/2 of their terrain open in early December and don't get 100% open until mid-late January. That's around when Attitash and Wildcat were 100% this year. 

I can't necessarily speak to mid December crowds at So. VT places like Mt. Snow, Stratton, or even K, but at least in NH and Maine crowds don't show up until Christmas unless its a killer snow year in the flatlands.


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## Edd (Apr 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> September on Cape Cod is like March / April in the mountains.  The beach conditions are incredible in comparison to June, prices are way more affordable, but no one goes.
> 
> September weekends should be WAY busier on the Cape than they are in June, but that's just not the case.  April weekends in ski country should be WAY busier than December.  In both cases they aren't because people have moved on from those seasons.



Crazy. My skiing cranks up during Mar and April. I've stayed at the Cape in September with great success and we already have places reserved there in September coming up.


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## Smellytele (Apr 2, 2015)

Edd said:


> Crazy. My skiing cranks up during Mar and April. I've stayed at the Cape in September with great success and we already have places reserved there in September coming up.



Love the Cape in September. As noted - crowds are gone and it is still warm and sunny.


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## witch hobble (Apr 2, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> I think that's more the reality than a view.



Some might call it dharma.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 2, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Love the Cape in September. As noted - crowds are gone and it is still warm and sunny.


Before we had children we would always take a vacation during the first week in September.  It was the best week ever to avoid crowds.  One year we went to Yellowstone National Park and felt like we had the place to ourselves.


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## crank (Apr 2, 2015)

The cape in September in comparison to ski country in April does not work for me.  I am just not that into spring skiing.  The cape in September is still warm and sunny and the water is basically the same temps as August.  The snow is the thing.  Plus, this year aside, it just does not feel like winter up north in April.  September on the beach is awesome. I usually take a 2 week sailing trip up to Block Island starting in early September in order to avoid crowds.


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## hammer (Apr 2, 2015)

Is the cape always warm in September?  To me it is analogous to March...while March can be cold (like this year) there is always a chance that it can warm up.  Likewise, while September weather can be summer-like, with the lower sun angle there is a real chance that the weather will be too cool for typical summer activities.

When growing up on the Jersey Shore where September is more reliably warm, even though the tourists left after Labor Day, we were usually ready to move on to other things and really didn't bother going to the beach anymore.


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## joshua segal (Apr 2, 2015)

It appears that a lot of areas are extending their seasons. It's being done ad hoc with not a lot of planning and minimal advertising. I worry that the operators will look at the crowd (or absence thereof) and erroneously conclude that it was a failed experiment.

Crotched Mountain just announced that they changed their plans for this weekend!

They will be open both days 9-5 pm with $29 lift tickets and Easter Sunday, Kids 18 and under a youth pay their age for a lift ticket. 

If you live in the greater Boston area, let management know that you support spring skiing. Who knows? If enough people turn out, maybe something will happen on the weekend of April 11-12.


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## prsboogie (Apr 2, 2015)

^^^ be there on Saturday for sure, gotta pick up next years season passes!!


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## xwhaler (Apr 2, 2015)

If Crotched were to open Sunday 4/12 that would get strong consideration from me.   Don't want to travel too far as final round of the Masters is must see tv that afternoon!


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## Quietman (Apr 2, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> I
> Crotched Mountain just announced that they changed their plans for this weekend!
> 
> They will be open both days 9-5 pm with $29 lift tickets and Easter Sunday, Kids 18 and under a youth pay their age for a lift ticket.
> ...



$29 tickets are listed as online specials, don't know about window pricing.


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## WWF-VT (Apr 2, 2015)

xwhaler said:


> If Crotched were to open Sunday 4/12 that would get strong consideration from me.   Don't want to travel too far as final round of the Masters is must see tv that afternoon!



Final round of the Masters is _must see TV _?  Don't complain when mountains close in the spring when _watching golf_ takes priority over a  day of skiing.


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## ss20 (Apr 2, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Final round of the Masters is _must see TV _?  Don't complain when mountains close in the spring when _watching golf_ takes priority over a  day of skiing.



Ehhhh... I must admit I went home early from the slopes one day this year to watch the Daytona 500.


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 3, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> Final round of the Masters is _must see TV _?  Don't complain when mountains close in the spring when _watching golf_ takes priority over a  day of skiing.



Sounds to me like he wants to ski and THEN watch golf.  Nothing wrong with that.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xwhaler (Apr 3, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> Sounds to me like he wants to ski and THEN watch golf.  Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bingo! I'm a golf fan and casually tune in to every tournament's final round throughout the PGA season...usually just as background noise though.
However the Masters is incredible theater....the course is spectacular on TV, it can play to young bombers or older guys (Fred Couples in the hunt last yr), and the leaderboard is usually pretty bunched at the end which makes it exciting. 
I try and watch as much of it as I can that wknd.

Now, that being said I fully plan on skiing...my point was that I'm not going to drive 3 hrs each way for 4 hrs of skiing. Crotched is 1 hr from home so if I can get there for 1st chair I can easily get a ton of skiing in and be home to watch the full final round of the Masters.


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## catsup948 (Apr 3, 2015)

The Masters is great in HD!  I'll be at Jay Peak that weekend which will look the complete opposite of Augusta, Georgia! :razz:


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## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 3, 2015)

Who watches live TV? DVR and no commercials...


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## VTKilarney (Apr 3, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Who watches live TV? DVR and no commercials...


Very true, although the Masters coverage has limited commercials.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 5, 2015)

Completely OT Masters story:

  My entire family enters the Masters lottery for practice round tickets (mostly non-golfers forced to do so), and have done so for approximately 15 years.  If I include friends, I could arrive at a number in the hundreds in terms of total entries, and we've had ONE winning entry (older brother) in all that time (2004).  It's almost impossible.


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## raisingarizona (Apr 5, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> Unless you are a ski area marketing guy and have some serious numbers to back up what you said, your opinion is based on your trust of "the prevailing wisdom." And all I am saying is that the prevailing wisdom has never been tested.



I don't need to be a ski area marketing guy or do a study to be able to observe the blatantly obvious.


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## Cannonball (Apr 5, 2015)

raisingarizona said:


> I don't need to be a ski area marketing guy or do a study to be able to observe the blatantly obvious.



Finally somebody succinctly said what everybody's been try to explain. Nicely done.


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## dlague (Apr 6, 2015)

I have just entered the no skiing zone of the year.  My son's lacrosse season has started and he has a game middle of the day this coming Sunday and  on going Sundays with occasional Saturdays.  Now I am a Season Pass holder and I inclined to go for it that afternoon, however, no person who will have to pay will do that.  To other's points - spring sports start to trump skiing, those with season passes may still make it up for a few hours but there is little lost for them and nothing really gained by the ski area.

Now, while my family is starting to get burned out, we will still get out for 5-8 more times but for the most part this is not the case for the general skiing public - exception,  people on this forum or other similar forums.

Keep in mind across the entire skier/snowboarding community which is about 16.1 million the average numbers of days skiing is around 5 days per year.  Everyone on this board does not fit the average profile, but ski areas depend on that average profile.


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## farlep99 (Apr 6, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Completely OT Masters story:
> 
> My entire family enters the Masters lottery for practice round tickets (mostly non-golfers forced to do so), and have done so for approximately 15 years.  If I include friends, I could arrive at a number in the hundreds in terms of total entries, and we've had ONE winning entry (older brother) in all that time (2004).  It's almost impossible.



Weird hearing this- I entered lottery 2 years ago for the first time & won Monday practice round tix.  Went last year for the first time, walked course for 2hrs & then everyone was thrown out because of storms.  They refunded the ticket $ and guaranteed opportunity to buy practice round for this years Masters.  So I leave tomorrow.  Evidently I got really lucky


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## joshua segal (Apr 6, 2015)

+ 1 to most of dlague's posting, but if the "fanatics" represent 5 to 10% of the skiing public, then there should be enough late season business to support 5 to 10% of the ski areas.  Killington, Wildcat, Sugarloaf, Jay, Sugarbush and Sunday River; are the sum total of areas that even try for May.,(more like 2% of the northeast ski areas).


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## St. Bear (Apr 6, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> + 1 to most of dlague's posting, but if the "fanatics" represent 5 to 10% of the skiing public, then there should be enough late season business to support 5 to 10% of the ski areas.  Killington, Wildcat, Sugarloaf, Jay, Sugarbush and Sunday River; are the sum total of areas that even try for May.,(more like 2% of the northeast ski areas).



If you factor for location, I bet that % goes up drastically.  You can't expect places in Southern New England to push for May, and even Southern NH/VT (Ragged, Gunstock, Bromley, etc) is highly unlikely.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

Ski areas are a business.  If it was profitable for more ski areas to stay open later they would do so.  If they would get a return on their marketing dollars they would market a longer season product.  But they don't.  It's been said many times in this thread that the market dwindles in April and May.  As much as we wish it were not so, it is.  Ski areas recognize that reality.

I also don't think that there is anything wrong with families pursuing a well rounded portfolio of recreational activities.


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## joshua segal (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ski areas are a business.  If it was profitable for more ski areas to stay open later they would do so.  If they would get a return on their marketing dollars they would market a longer season product.  But they don't.  It's been said many times in this thread that the market dwindles in April and May.  As much as we wish it were not so, it is.  Ski areas recognize that reality.


You've gone full circle from my original posting.  You're saying ski areas never marketed the spring product because they didn't (and don't) believe there is money to be made.  I'm saying they never tried to market it, so we don't know if there is money to be made.  (And when they have made the effort to market it, they do all right with pond skimming, spring carnivals, etc.)


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## VTKilarney (Apr 6, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> You're saying ski areas never marketed the spring product because they didn't (and don't) believe there is money to be made.  I'm saying they never tried to market it, so we don't know if there is money to be made.  (And when they have made the effort to market it, they do all right with pond skimming, spring carnivals, etc.)


Uhh... that's not at all what I am saying.  I didn't say that ski areas have never tried to market their spring product.  What I was trying to say is that I am sure they have the market figured out by now, and know when marketing dollars are wasted.  I don't think these people are, generally speaking, as clueless as you think.


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## joshua segal (Apr 6, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Uhh... that's not at all what I am saying.  I didn't say that ski areas have never tried to market their spring product.  What I was trying to say is that I am sure they have the market figured out by now, and know when marketing dollars are wasted.  I don't think these people are, generally speaking, as clueless as you think.


One of the reason so many ski areas are out of business is because you are giving the marketing guys credit for way too much.  Most marketing people aren't that innovative and just repeat the tired old mistakes of their predecessors.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2015)

*Saturday, March 29th* - Smuggler's Notch had 15 to 18 minute lines at Madonna I & 10 minute lines at Sterling without recent snow.

*Saturday, April 4th *- Smuggler's Notch was ski-on all day on all lifts, and this was WITH 8" to 10" of fresh snow.   

That's all I needed to see to remind myself that the average member of the skiing public "tunes out" in April.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 6, 2015)

......and Smuggs had 2 for 1 lift ticket vouchers abundantly available in grocery stores here in the flat lands since the beginning of March.  Hell, I offered to ship the vouchers to people free of charge if they wanted them and I found not one taker on this forum of "die hard" skiers. 

 Great product, cheap prices and people still don't show.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2015)

farlep99 said:


> Weird hearing this- I entered lottery 2 years ago for the first time & won Monday practice round tix. ....  Evidently I got really lucky



Extremely.   I have a friend who runs an insurance office and has all the non-golfing employees enter on his behalf (about 50 people).  He did this for a few years and none of them won.  

Honestly, at roughly $180 to $250 a practice ticket, it's worth it just buying them on Stubhub in advance.


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## Bostonian (Apr 6, 2015)

It sucks this time of year, since we are not the normal skiing public.  As someone said here, there are those who log 5 days in a year and call it a season.  Even at 20 days I am an anomaly to those, and you guys are just sheer fanatics (I good thing!).   Hopefully, I will be able to ski with some of you guys again soon, since man I could learn a lot!  But peoples focus is now on Baseball, Boats, Beaches and ugh summer.  Time to get in as much skiing as I can before it all melts out!!


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## St. Bear (Apr 6, 2015)

I think the viable options for a late spring push are so small.

You need:

High natural snowfall to build a good base (cross off everyone south of Killington)
Sustained cold temps to keep that base (crap shoot year to year)
Favorable latitude/elevation/aspect (cross off Waterville, Loon and Attitash)
Large enough population draw to justify staying open (cross off Saddleback)

After considering those factors, I think the only areas who don't stay open and reasonably could are Stowe and Bolton.  Maybe you could make the argument that Cannon could go an extra week some years, but that's more recency bias, IMO.


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## dlague (Apr 6, 2015)

I come from a family of 5 and of the 5, 4 have skiing families.  My family is the only family still skiing. - the others have hung it up.  So it goes for most.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


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## Scruffy (Apr 6, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> One of the reason so many ski areas are out of business is because you are giving the marketing guys credit for way too much.  Most marketing people aren't that innovative and just repeat the tired old mistakes of their predecessors.



 You keep dragging that up, as if you personally have inside information on exactly why every ski area went out of business over the past 30 years or so, and you blame it on poor marketing. You couldn't sell steak and lobster to a finite group of people that have been gorging themselves on steak and lobster all week. At some point, people are full. Give it a rest.


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## Glenn (Apr 6, 2015)

Savemeasammy said:


> Most of the casual skiers don't care once it starts to warm up and the snow melts.  They are ready to move on to other things.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




This. 

And it blows my mind that people race to ski on the WROD, over twigs and leaves in marginal weather early season....but don't bother to come up when the mountain is practically 100% open, warm temps and the snow is soft.


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## dlague (Apr 6, 2015)

Personally, I reach a form of depression around this time of year which sucks.  Ski areas are closing and the end of season clock keeps ticking.  Every time my family opts to do something other than skiing - I am a debbie downer.  If it were not for me, my family probably would be moving on.  However, for those who have reached finality, it is not even a second thought - they are done and I would bet it is a majority of the skiing/snowboarding population and while marketing might get a few extra visits but I do not think there would be a huge up tick.


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## Puck it (Apr 6, 2015)

dlague said:


> Personally, I reach a form of depression around this time of year which sucks.  Ski areas are closing and the end of season clock keeps ticking.  Every time my family opts to do something other than skiing - I am a debbie downer.  If it were not for me, my family probably would be moving on.  However, for those who have reached finality, it is not even a second thought - they are done and I would bet it is a majority of the skiing/snowboarding population and while marketing might get a few extra visits but I do not think there would be a huge up tick.



mental health day?


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## vonski (Apr 6, 2015)

The other difference is for the 10 day a year type skier the legs just are not in shape to handle the spring corn as well as the diehard who has been skiing all winter.   So a day on corn can be too much work for some.


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## tekweezle (Apr 6, 2015)

Experienced the good, the bad and the ugly of spring skiing this weekend at Stratton.   

What a difference a week makes with a little rain damage.   Sometimes even just in a day.   My friends that went up last week reported mid winter conditions.   This weekend,  we got rain overnight Friday and a light coating of snow to go with spring conditions on Saturday.  Only annoying part other than lifts being closed(forcing a little bit of uphill traversing at times) was that the trails were a bit of a mess since the damage seemed to happen after overnight grooming.   So we got dust on crust and windblown boiler plate.   Pretty hazardous mix of slush, ice and death cookies too.  Of course my own fault in this matter is that it was the first time on skis for me in about a month so I wasn't in good condition to deal with it.   If I'd been going more consistently, I might not have noticed. 

My point as it relates to this thread is that the unfortunate thing is that this time of the season, the weather and conditions get even more unpredictable.   Resorts make a calculated decision to start scaling back operations.  Takes a pretty dedicated and fit person(physically and mentally) to enjoy it. 

Sunday was better at first.   Overnight refreeze,  a little more snow on top and blue skies and warm Temps to start.   Sunrise super trail was great.   But clouds came in, Temps dropped and wind picked up so more icy, death cookie conditions.   Temps were back mid winter at least higher up which was good.   Another round of grooming could have helped the icy situation immensely.   Most fun was the relatively uncrowded slopes and being able to ski right onto the lifts.   They disassembled the lift corrals early or didn't set them up at all. 

I wouldn't mind going again next week except.... Forecast has more rain on the way..... Such is spring skiing..... 

Sent from my LGL41C using Tapatalk


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## bdfreetuna (Apr 6, 2015)

Saddleback has 5 foot deep snow and they are only open for 1 more weekend. They will be setting records for amount of snow on the ground for end of season.


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## Quietman (Apr 6, 2015)

Scruffy said:


> You keep dragging that up, as if you personally have inside information on exactly why every ski area went out of business over the past 30 years or so, and you blame it on poor marketing. You couldn't sell steak and lobster to a finite group of people that have been gorging themselves on steak and lobster all week. At some point, people are full. Give it a rest.


I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept.  Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed.  Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 7, 2015)

Quietman said:


> I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept.  Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed.  Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.



I'm pretty sure that pay your kids' age on Easter will = fail most anywhere...  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2015)

Even Loon on Sunday all lifts but the Gondola were ski on.   It was 35 and sunny, so it wasn't the weather keeping people away.


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## joshua segal (Apr 7, 2015)

Quietman said:


> I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept.  Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed.  Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.



"quietman" is right on.  Marketing spring skiing isn't making an 11th hour decision to be open.

Spring skiing always included pond skimming and spring carnivals with a large dose of Gemütlichkeit.  With consistently good snow through the month of March, the pond skimming and spring carnivals should be moved out a few weeks to a time where there really are bare patches and there is the feel that the season is near its end.

As for learning, spring snow is especially easy to teach beginners.  This is because for beginners, the biggest enemy is speed.  The slower snow allows the beginner to actually turn across the fall line without going "scary fast".  I sure would rather be out on a warm March day than a freezing January day.  For the areas that have after school programs, offering either extensions or late season programs (for those not into different sports) should be a source of positive cash flow.

There are those who say that extending the season into the spring would overlap other sports:  In my lifetime, the baseball season was extended now including all of October; the football season has extended by a month to include all of January (and early Feb. too); the NHL and NBA go into June.  Indoor tennis hasn't been shy about going head-to-head with the skiing season.  They're all doing well horning in on the seasons that used to belong to other sports.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> There are those who say that extending the season into the spring would overlap other sports:  In my lifetime, the baseball season was extended now including all of October; the football season has extended by a month to include all of January (and early Feb. too); the NHL and NBA go into June.  Indoor tennis hasn't been shy about going head-to-head with the skiing season.  They're all doing well horning in on the seasons that used to belong to other sports.



You are out of touch with reality regarding today's youth sports.  During the 80s I basically had to quit youth baseball in the spring because I wanted to still be skiing.  Same goes for soccer in the fall.   I had numerous friends who skied, but the team sports always took priority for them.

Now participation requirements are ratcheted up even further.  

You see this reality in this thread and choose to patently ignore it.   Diehards skiing parents who make it out 40+ times a year saying, "My season is basically done.  Kids spring sports have started."

No marketing campaign can change that.


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## drjeff (Apr 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You are out of touch with reality regarding today's youth sports.  During the 80s I basically had to quit youth baseball in the spring because I wanted to still be skiing.  Same goes for soccer in the fall.   I had numerous friends who skied, but the team sports always took priority for them.
> 
> Now participation requirements are ratcheted up even further.
> 
> ...



Yup! 

The modern reality (a combo of many parents skewed views on their kids athletic abilities and coaches unrealistic views based on many parents unrealistic views) is that youth sports have gone away from the older model where diversity of sports played by kids across all seasons was encouraged and "specialization" in a particular sport by a kid essentially year round was rare.

Nowadays the norm, and in general I think this is a bad idea, is to have kids at an early age start specialization in one particular sport year round and not diversify. Sure, my kids ski a lot, but they also play soccer and golf and run. All of those sports could be a year round event for us, but we choose for them not to be.

That is tough to do in today's world, and its why non skiing sports DO have a large adverse effect on crowd numbers in the spring since many parents are almost afraid to have their kids miss a practice for fear of loss of potential playing time


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

Quietman said:


> I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept.  Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed.  Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.


Doesn't it tell you something that when they repeated the offer in April nobody came?


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2015)

drjeff said:


> The modern reality (a combo of many parents skewed views on their kids athletic abilities and coaches unrealistic views based on many parents unrealistic views) is that youth sports have gone away from the older model where diversity of sports played by kids across all seasons was encouraged and "specialization" in a particular sport by a kid essentially year round was rare.
> 
> Nowadays the norm, and in general I think this is a bad idea, is to have kids at an early age start specialization in one particular sport year round and not diversify.



An example of this pressure to succeed in youth sports would be my boss and his son.  I have not seen his son play QB.  He put his son into a private school as they have a good track record of placing kids in college programs.  Last fall during his junior season, his son got benched.  So, what did Dad do?  He researched what other schools in the state have good football programs and needed a QB.  He rented a house in a town two hours away from home (his wife visits on the weekends :lol: ) to get his kid a starting QB roll.  Apparently this public school has all sorts of coaching and training for star varsity players year round.  The kid has been working with the wide receivers near daily after school since he got there.

My boss's rationale is A. He wants his kid to be happy; and B. If his 30K gamble results in a college scholarship, he ends up saving $70K+ in the long run in college costs.  To each their own, but this is not uncommon and I certainly have a hard time wrapping my mind around it. 

Hopefully I luck out and my kid takes to winter and skiing like I did and loses interest in the others sports.  :lol:   Unlikely though.  Team sport performance at the youth level becomes a huge part of a child's identity and popularity with their peers. Pretty sad fact.


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## gmcunni (Apr 7, 2015)

talking to a friend yesterday who's son plays on HS baseball team.  they have 3 games during spring break vacation and the team policy is if you miss a game or practice for an unexcused reason (non-medical) then you also sit for a game.

so they don't get to go on a family vacation otherwise the kid misses 6 of the 15 games on the schedule.

other friends have kids in football program and similar rules apply for August practice so they have to take their summer vaca in July or skip it.


i don't have a sports conflict in my house this year, more of a social one... would rather hang out with her friends than ski and it seems like fewer and fewer teens are skiing these days, at least in my town.  we run a parks & rec friday night ski program, we used to get 3 bus fulls of kids 5 years ago, now we get 1.


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## St. Bear (Apr 7, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> i don't have a sports conflict in my house this year, more of a social one... would rather hang out with her friends than ski and it seems like fewer and fewer teens are skiing these days, at least in my town.  we run a parks & rec friday night ski program, we used to get 3 bus fulls of kids 5 years ago, now we get 1.



This is what happened to me growing up.  None of my friends skied, so I stopped in HS and college.  My brother had a bunch of friends who skied, and he continued with it.

Obviously I came back to the sport, but because of the 12 years that I took off, my brother is a much stronger skier than I am.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> talking to a friend yesterday who's son plays on HS baseball team.  they have 3 games during spring break vacation and the team policy is if you miss a game or practice for an unexcused reason (non-medical) then you also sit for a game.
> 
> so they don't get to go on a family vacation otherwise the kid misses 6 of the 15 games on the schedule.
> 
> other friends have kids in football program and similar rules apply for August practice so they have to take their summer vaca in July or skip it.



This applies to basketball as well for Feb vaca.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> talking to a friend yesterday who's son plays on HS baseball team.  they have 3 games during spring break vacation and the team policy is if you miss a game or practice for an unexcused reason (non-medical) then you also sit for a game.
> 
> so they don't get to go on a family vacation otherwise the kid misses 6 of the 15 games on the schedule.
> 
> other friends have kids in football program and similar rules apply for August practice so they have to take their summer vaca in July or skip it.



Also in NH this is not a team rule it is a rule put in place by the State association NHIAA.


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## witch hobble (Apr 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Hopefully I luck out and my kid takes to winter and skiing like I did and loses interest in the others sports.  :lol:   Unlikely though.  Team sport performance at the youth level becomes a huge part of a child's identity and popularity with their peers. Pretty sad fact.



While not totally uncommon, your boss's story is a little extreme.

Ideally, team sports consciously and unconsciously teach teamwork, interdependence, sharing and the idea of being a part of something larger than the self.  In a small town, there is also some restructuring of the social hierarchy and shuffling of the deck that goes on.  Good for kids to meet and make friends with kids the same age from neighboring towns.  

And while we all want our kids to enjoy the things we enjoy, adolescence is a time for a kid to start trying to forge their own identity.  Skiing will be there for them down the road if they want it.  Organized team sports can be difficult to be a part of later in life.


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## hammer (Apr 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> My boss's rationale is A. He wants his kid to be happy; and B. If his 30K gamble results in a college scholarship, he ends up saving $70K+ in the long run in college costs.  To each their own, but this is not uncommon and I certainly have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.



Maybe it's because my kids were never that into sports, but I have a problem with the whole approach of getting your kids involved in sports so that they can get university sports scholarships.  If the kids are talented and like doing the sport and the scholarship money is available, then sure, take it...but to take extra measures in sports?  I'd rather see kids get better grades and then qualify for academic merit scholarships. 

Also, how good of an education can you get at a college if you have to spend a ton of time playing a competitive sport?

For us, kid conflicts used to be more interest issues...either they didn't really take to skiing (you have to put up with the cold and also have to not get spooked by riding chairlifts) or there were other things they would rather be doing.


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## joshua segal (Apr 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You are out of touch with reality regarding today's youth sports.
> 
> ...
> 
> No marketing campaign can change that.


OK.  So if I follow your logic, when the football season starts in Sept., everyone should shut down all the baseball fields because no one wants to play baseball any more.

You and your supporters keep saying, "No marketing campaign can change that (i.e. losing the conflict with other sports seasons)" and you may be right.  But until someone makes a serious effort, I say, "nobody knows."


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## St. Bear (Apr 7, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> You and your supporters keep saying, "No marketing campaign can change that (i.e. losing the conflict with other sports seasons)" and you may be right.  But until someone makes a serious effort, I say, "nobody knows."



Multiple mountains do make a serious effort.  At least 1 in each region where a reasonable effort can be made (Central VT, Northern VT, NH, ME).  You're not listening to any of the points we're making.

Think about it this way, if it were no-doubt clear cut profitable to operate as late as possible, would Powdr have changed Killington's operating schedule?  The fact that they tried to shorten their season proves that it's more complicated than any of us realize.


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## Puck it (Apr 7, 2015)

Youth sports are out of control these days.  I had to do it again.  I would not do what I did.

Good luck to your boss's kid.  I now a lot of parent's that spent more than me on hockey and their kids ended in DIII programs with no scholarships.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> OK.  So if I follow your logic, when the football season starts in Sept., everyone should shut down all the baseball fields because no one wants to play baseball any more.
> 
> You and your supporters keep saying, "No marketing campaign can change that (i.e. losing the conflict with other sports seasons)" and you may be right.  But until someone makes a serious effort, I say, "nobody knows."


How do you shut down a baseball field?

You are missing the point.  The baseball kids are playing fall baseball, not football.  And the football kids are playing spring football.  in order to be competitive, kids these days are being forced to focus on one sport.


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## hammer (Apr 7, 2015)

Puck it said:


> Youth sports are out of control these days.  I had to do it again.  I would not do what I did.
> 
> Good luck to your boss's kid.  I now a lot of parent's that spent more than me on hockey and their kids ended in DIII programs with no scholarships.


My daughter, who is a senior this year, participated in sports but it was more for the social aspect (having knee issues didn't help).  Much happier to see her get the good grades and the merit scholarship offers, has made it so that she has choices of which school to go to in the fall.

Going back on topic, at Sunapee yesterday it looked like most of the people there were pass holders who were there for just a few hours and if they were there all day brown-bagged it.  Felt like I was one of a handful of "paying" customers and even I came in with a 50% pre-purchase discount.


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## Puck it (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How do you shut down a baseball field?
> 
> You are missing the point.  The baseball kids are playing fall baseball, not football.  And the football kids are playing spring football.  in order to be competitive, kids these days are being forced to focus on one sport.



True,  hockey was year round for us.  Tournaments from as far  Miami up to Montreal.


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## gmcunni (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How do you shut down a baseball field?
> 
> You are missing the point.  The baseball kids are playing fall baseball, not football.  And the football kids are playing spring football.  in order to be competitive, kids these days are being forced to focus on one sport.



and most HS athletes i've talked to about skiing say they are forbidden (strongly discouraged) by their "main sport" coach from doing it.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> How do you shut down a baseball field?
> 
> You are missing the point.  The baseball kids are playing fall baseball, not football.  And the football kids are playing spring football.  in order to be competitive, kids these days are being forced to focus on one sport.


My oldest son was not "forced" to play one sport. He only wanted to. When he was younger we introduced him to soccer, football, basketball and baseball. He only liked baseball and stopped playing the rest on his own.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> My oldest son was not "forced" to play one sport. He only wanted to. When he was younger we introduced him to soccer, football, basketball and baseball. He only liked baseball and stopped playing the rest on his own.


My comment was not specifically about your son.  My comment was a general observation that in order to keep up competitively more and more children have to play a single sport nearly year round - which is a sad thing.  But the reality is that if the other kids are doing it, it is harder to keep up with those "other kids" for a child opts out.


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## hammer (Apr 7, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> and most HS athletes i've talked to about skiing say they are forbidden (strongly discouraged) by their "main sport" coach from doing it.


I could see this for a professional player but really?


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Last fall during his junior season, *his son got benched.  So,* *what did Dad do?  He researched what other schools in the state have good football programs and needed a QB.  He rented a house in a town two hours away from home (his wife visits on the weekends ) to get his kid a starting QB roll.*



He's a sicko.



deadheadskier said:


> *My boss's rationale is*....*He wants his kid to be happy*



Do you really believe that?  I imagine there's a 20% chance it's true, with an 80% chance he's one of those many parents living vicariously through his son, and/or has what certainly sounds like (given the benching) unrealistic expectations.

If I had a nickel for every parent on my baseball, basketball, tennis, football, etc.... teams growing up who thought their little Johnny was much better than he really was......well.....I'd have more nickels than I do now.


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## gmcunni (Apr 7, 2015)

indoor facilities make many outdoor seasonal sports possible year round.  we have one place that has indoor baseball in the winter.  it is a modified game (and equipment) but the really dedicated can play/train if they want to


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

I'd also willing to bet that a kid who was benched during his junior year has no chance whatsoever of a scholarship that will justify the expense of relocating to a town with a team that will play him.  At the very best it's a horrible bet.


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## Domeskier (Apr 7, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> indoor facilities make many outdoor seasonal sports possible year round.



Ain't that the truth!


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## deadheadskier (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I'd also willing to bet that a kid who was benched during his junior year has no chance whatsoever of a scholarship that will justify the expense of relocating to a town with a team that will play him.  At the very best it's a horrible bet.



In theory yes, but there are exceptions.  In this case the son is a passing QB.  The team lacked talent at WR, so they switched to an option offense with a running QB.   Kid for certain has talent.  BC and UNH started scouting him as a Sophomore.  That said it's not a choice I would make with my kid, but too each their own.


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## joshua segal (Apr 7, 2015)

St. Bear said:


> ...
> , if it were no-doubt clear cut profitable to operate as late as possible, would Powdr have changed Killington's operating schedule?  The fact that they tried to shorten their season proves that it's more complicated than any of us realize.


Killington's skier visits fell dramatically when POWDR took over.  POWDR was clueless of what made Killington tick and the reason Killington is back is because customers (not the marketing department) told them that both early season (Oct.) and late season (Jun.) were fundamental products for Killington.


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## Puck it (Apr 7, 2015)

Even DIII programs are a full time commitment in college now.  Very little downtime for anything but school and practice. And no money for an athletic scholarship in DIII programs.


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## gmcunni (Apr 7, 2015)

i think this is a dying sport.  10 years from now it will be us old people skiing, the youth will have "better" things to do that cost a lot less.


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## Grizzly Adams (Apr 7, 2015)

I've known a couple kids that have given up skiing to focus on other sports and have never really been a fan of the idea. I think for the large majority of kids, sports in highschool never pan out into anything more than memories, it seems dumb to me to give up skiing in order to better oneself in other sports that have such low success rates in the long run. Obviously there's going to be star athletes that progress to high levels, but for the general population I feel that its better to be relaxed and have players set goals geared more towards enjoying themselves and building team bonds rather than having them feeling pressured to excel.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> My comment was not specifically about your son.  My comment was a general observation that in order to keep up competitively more and more children have to play a single sport nearly year round - which is a sad thing.  But the reality is that if the other kids are doing it, it is harder to keep up with those "other kids" for a child opts out.



I agree. I was just saying not all kids are forced some choose on their own. My youngest son has chosen to play 3 sports (baseball, soccer and basketball)plus loves skiing. Trying to get him to not play basketball but he seems to like it although not as much as skiing and the other 2.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 7, 2015)

Grizzly Adams said:


> I've known a couple kids that have given up skiing to focus on other sports and have never really been a fan of the idea. I think for the large majority of kids, sports in highschool never pan out into anything more than memories, it seems dumb to me to give up skiing in order to better oneself in other sports that have such low success rates in the long run. Obviously there's going to be star athletes that progress to high levels, but for the general population I feel that its better to be relaxed and have players set goals geared more towards enjoying themselves and building team bonds rather than having them feeling pressured to excel.


Very well said.  99% of these kids are chasing something they will never catch.  They would be much better served by having diverse experiences when it comes to sports.


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## Grizzly Adams (Apr 7, 2015)

oh, and this is what I originally came to say before I read and weighed in on all the sports stuff:

Gunstock was niiiiiiice on Sunday. I was not planning to ski this past weekend but checked the forecast Saturday afternoon, saw 45 and sunny on the radar for Sunday, and couldnt pass up the opportunity to make some turns. Headed up for the day and was blessed with prime spring conditions, creamy new england chowder like you read about!!!! I rode the lift with a local season pass holder who was bummed to inform me that Easter Sunday would be the Stock's last day of operation. The elderly gentlemen seemed fairly upset that they were going leave so much snow on the mountain and nobody was gunna be around to ski it. I have to agree with him, the groomers still had a decent base, and although the woods were roped off bc of spotty coverage, I poached em in the afternoon once they softened up, found some decent remaining lines and had one of the better runs of the day thru there. It saddens me to see areas closing up, although, I do understand that most areas cannot make profits spinning the lifts for only a handful of riders.


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## prsboogie (Apr 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Doesn't it tell you something that when they repeated the offer in April nobody came?



Nope, it means they need to give more than a weeks notice if they are interested in drawing a crowd. 

I do think it being Easter weekend also had a lot to do with the lack of crowds. I was headed there on Saturday as of Thursday night but woke to a kid with Scarlett Fever and Strep Throat on Friday. Shot the weekend in the A$$! 

Trying to get out Sunday and just got the baseball practice schedule, Tue, Thur Sat Sun, wtf!! Guess he's missing one day of practice!!!

Its hard because you want your kids rounded but you don't want to miss a day of skiing since the season is way shorted than the "rest of the year"!


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## dlague (Apr 7, 2015)

drjeff said:


> Yup!
> 
> The modern reality (a combo of many parents skewed views on their kids athletic abilities and coaches unrealistic views based on many parents unrealistic views) is that youth sports have gone away from the older model where diversity of sports played by kids across all seasons was encouraged and "specialization" in a particular sport by a kid essentially year round was rare.
> 
> ...



LaCrosse is now starting and we will potentially miss a few days due to that but if my son has a morning game then we will go for it over the next couple weekends and get some turns.  However we are not the norm.    We used to have a son that played football and there were November turns that were missed during playoffs.  Because our kids had a passion for skiing none of them played winter sports.  However,  soccer and lacrosse have gone indoors for clinics and indoor leagues and we have blown those off.  Most coach's these days are trying hard to get kids to play a single sport year round to improve potential in future years.  That is not our focus.  Sports is all about fun for our kids.  As a result we have minimal impact on ski season and hit 40+ days per season.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 7, 2015)

Grizzly Adams said:


> *I've known a couple kids that have given up skiing to focus on other sports* and have never really been a fan of the idea..



Shared a table at Castlerock Pub a few weeks ago with a family from CT who was on their first ski trip in FIFTEEN years because of their son's hockey schedule.  Lesson learned.  As much as I love ice hockey, my kids can play pond hockey rather than competitively.



VTKilarney said:


> Very well said.  99% of these kids are chasing something they will never catch.  *They would be much better served by having diverse experiences when it comes to sports*.



Not to mention, mentally healthier, well-adjusted, less stressed, and likely healthier.


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## marcski (Apr 8, 2015)

Other than skiing, winter organized sports are banned from our household.  As it is, my kids have missed a few early season indoor soccer and lax practices.  I was picking up at Lax last night and someone said how it WAS such a good ski season.  My response was that it is not over; it's still going on. We're heading back on Friday.  Skiing trumps all!


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2015)

Unless my kid absolutely ends up hating the sport, that's the approach I plan on taking.  :lol:

Is 21 days old too young to get him started?  Maybe I'll drag him out there this weekend.


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## mikestaple (Apr 8, 2015)

Kids sports kills the family going up to the mountains after March 31st.   I have 30 minutes booked on IBM's Watson to crunch sports taxi logistics for the next 90 days.  With the East German Olympic training levels of kids sports - down to the pre elementary age - there isn't a single free day, less a weekend day, until sometime in June.  


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## joshua segal (Apr 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Unless my kid absolutely ends up hating the sport, that's the approach I plan on taking.  :lol:
> 
> Is 21 days old too young to get him started?  Maybe I'll drag him out there this weekend.



Whether you do or do not, that you're thinking about it, is commendable!

BTW, I started to ski when I got cut from my college's varsity hockey team.  Best thing that ever happened to me!  No one my age is still playing hockey - and what other sport but skiing is so intergenerational that grandparents, parents and children can all participate together?  And when kids become teenagers and don't want to be seen with parents, the ski area is the one place where even if they won't ski with you, you have the "quality time" of the drive.

What is the real value of organized kids sports?  It used to be to have fun and 3-letter athletes were routine.  The specialization in today's schools IMO is very short-sighted.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> and what other sport but skiing is so intergenerational that grandparents, parents and children can all participate together?.


Golf.  But a good marketing director would know that.


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## dlague (Apr 8, 2015)

marcski said:


> Other than skiing, winter organized sports are banned from our household.  As it is, my kids have missed a few early season indoor soccer and lax practices.  I was picking up at Lax last night and someone said how it WAS such a good ski season.  My response was that it is not over; it's still going on. We're heading back on Friday.  Skiing trumps all!



Right on!  NOT DO NE for us either.



deadheadskier said:


> Unless my kid absolutely ends up hating the sport, that's the approach I plan on taking.  :lol:
> 
> Is 21 days old too young to get him started?  Maybe I'll drag him out there this weekend.



Great idea.  Haven't gotten him out yet? Haha


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## Smellytele (Apr 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Unless my kid absolutely ends up hating the sport, that's the approach I plan on taking.  :lol:
> 
> Is 21 days old too young to get him started?  Maybe I'll drag him out there this weekend.



Never too early to start the brainwashing process. I did with getting my kids to not like basketball, not really on the getting them to love skiing. That part came naturally.


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## hammer (Apr 8, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> Never too early to start the brainwashing process. I did with getting my kids to not like basketball, not really on the getting them to love skiing. That part came naturally.


Unfortunately I wasn't successful in getting the kids to catch the skiing bug.  Was a bit more challenging because my wife and I were essentially learning at the same time as they were.  Main thing we did was get the kids into ski programs in school so that if they decide at some point to take it back up again at least they have the skills.


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## joshua segal (Apr 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Golf.  But a good marketing director would know that.


The word you apparently missed was "together".  A good marketing director notices that.  

While all ages can participate in golf, with women's tees and men's tees and limited abilities of sub-10 year olds, I don't think I've ever seen a husband, wife and two kids as a foursome.  Any other suggestions?


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## dlague (Apr 8, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> what other sport but skiing is so intergenerational that grandparents, parents and children can all participate together?





VTKilarney said:


> Golf.  But a good marketing director would know that.



Candle-pin Bowling


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## dlague (Apr 8, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The word you apparently missed was "together".  A good marketing director notices that.
> 
> While all ages can participate in golf, with women's tees and men's tees and limited abilities of sub-10 year olds, I don't think I've ever seen a husband, wife and two kids as a foursome.  Any other suggestions?



My wife and I golf with our 12 year old - however, not as much as we ski together.


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## joshua segal (Apr 8, 2015)

dlague said:


> Candle-pin Bowling


Good one!


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The word you apparently missed was "together".  A good marketing director notices that.
> 
> While all ages can participate in golf, with women's tees and men's tees and limited abilities of sub-10 year olds, I don't think I've ever seen a husband, wife and two kids as a foursome.  Any other suggestions?



Now you are just being silly.  


.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> The word you apparently missed was "together".  A good marketing director notices that.
> 
> While all ages can participate in golf, with women's tees and men's tees and limited abilities of sub-10 year olds, I don't think I've ever seen a husband, wife and two kids as a foursome.  Any other suggestions?



Huh?

When I used to play golf, my brother and I played with our parents as a foursome all the time.  We took a family trip to Florida every Thanksgiving for many years.  Often times we'd play with my grandfather too if you want to bring in the three generations argument.

Your men's and lady's tee comment shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the game.  Those tees on the average golf course are maybe 50 - 100 feet apart on most holes and do not exclude people from playing together. 

You know Josh it's okay to admit when someone else brings up a good and valid point like VTK did with golf.   If arguing against every single counter point to yours in this thread is your goal, I'd say you've succeeded.   In the art of persuasion, give and take is your friend.


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## VTKilarney (Apr 8, 2015)

I didn't even mention hiking, bicycling, and sailing - all of which are activities we have done as a family.  We were hiking from the time our first child could fit in one of those backpack carriers.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2015)

Tennis would be another.  When my wife and I play, we see families of 4 playing doubles all the time


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## x10003q (Apr 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Huh?
> 
> When I used to play golf, my brother and I played with our parents as a foursome all the time.  We took a family trip to Florida every Thanksgiving for many years.  Often times we'd play with my grandfather too if you want to bring in the three generations argument.
> 
> ...



Golf might be a stretch as a family sport. Maybe golf works if you are all at similar levels of skill. I can ski with my 3rd grader and my mom all day, but there is no way I am going out to play 18 with either one. I can still have fun skiing at a much slower pace, but that is not true on a golf course (for me). 

I also play golf with my sisters and it is way different than playing golf with my brother, mostly because they are hitting off the forward tees. Yes, we are playing the same hole, but it seems we are not playing the hole together at times. I realize I am not clear about the difference - but it is not the same when I am in a foursome all starting at the same tee.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 8, 2015)

You must be a very good golfer.   I believe I read the average golfer doesn't break 100.  My dad is a 14 handicap.  The rest of us closer to 30.  It was never an issue.  Dad was just happy to have the family out there with him.  

I no longer play, but he's retired and still plays with mom 3-4 days a week in Florida and often with friends of lesser ability than her.


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## dlague (Apr 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> You must be a very good golfer.   I believe I read the average golfer doesn't break 100.  My dad is a 14 handicap.  The rest of us closer to 30.  It was never an issue.  Dad was just happy to have the family out there with him.
> 
> I no longer play, but he's retired and still plays with mom 3-4 days a week in Florida and often with friends of lesser ability than her.



When we play together we often play best ball - so it works as a family!


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## Savemeasammy (Apr 8, 2015)

dlague said:


> When we play together we often play best ball - so it works as a family!



That's a good idea.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2015)

joshua segal said:


> *I don't think I've ever seen a husband, wife and two kids as a foursome.* *Any other suggestions?*



I don't think I've even been to a golf course on a Saturday and not seen a husband, wife and two kids as a foursome.

My suggestion would be to step on a golf course.


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## gmcunni (Apr 9, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> indoor facilities make many outdoor seasonal sports possible year round.  we have one place that has indoor baseball in the winter.  it is a modified game (and equipment) but the really dedicated can play/train if they want to





Domeskier said:


> Ain't that the truth!



https://fbcdn-video-g-a.akamaihd.ne...1428606071_85d2eb8ed284308714c71ac6653400d  f

[video]https://fbcdn-video-g-a.akamaihd.net/hvideo-ak-xfa1/v/t42.1790-2/11035717_913252602052681_1929915639_n.mp4?oh=bd8f8  cd828353ad5023a00e734977761&oe=5526D051&__gda__=1428606071_85d2eb8ed284308714c71ac6653400d  f[/video]


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