# 12/25/2019: A very merry Christmas at Attitash



## abc (Dec 25, 2019)

Condition: well groomed man-made snow, sun and cloud, very light crowd

Got the before 10. Not much crowd to speak off. Parked next to the tunnel entrance (there’re others prefer to park such to walk right across the road, which had almost no traffic). 

Its my first time there. Not knowing anything about the mountain, I did the obvious, of getting on the Summit triple. Well, it’s a looong and slooow ride! I nearly fell to sleep on the chair ride. 

But the view from the top of the summit is really nice. The day’s not the brightest today. I imagine it’d be gorgeous on a bright sunny day. 

Also on the way, I got to look at the trails it crossed. They looked freshly groomed and in good shape. So I ripped it! Not bad at all. This coming from someone who doesn’t care much for groomers much except to use them to get to the trees and bumps. Today, there’s no expectation of any bumps, let alone trees. So groomers zooming is all I expected and I’d say I’m not disappointed. 

Back up on the Flying Yankee. Much better. In fact, I nearly missed the dismount as I didn’t expect it to come so quickly (was intensely studying trail map). A couple quick laps of the lower mountain to warm up. Then it’s back on the slow summit triple to take on the 2 blacks that were open. Good steep trails to get the legs working. 

Then it’s time to explore the Bear side. Only a few top to bottom routes. Quickly covered those. Turns out the trail to get back to Attitash had the best snow. So changed my mind and did another lap on the “roundabout” route to the bottom. 

Time for lunch. Plenty of tables. 

Just when I was almost done eating, someone asked if they could share my table. That’s when I noticed the increased presence of ... people! They also mentioned the slopes we’re getting a little busy, and starting to get scraped off. So I hurried outside to do some more runs while the ”masses” eat lunch.

By the time the post-lunch crowd came out, I was ready to quit. There’s only so many laps I care to do of the 5-6 different top to bottom routes. Still, a nice day. 

A very merry skiing Christmas day no less! 

I must say I’m impressed with my 1st visit to Attitash. I’ll add that to my list for when I’m in the area.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 25, 2019)

It's got great pitch and some interesting trails.  

It's downfalls are low elevation / natural snowfall + the slow ass summit chair. 



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## prsboogie (Dec 26, 2019)

Glad you had a good day out. They do have a bunch of fun trails and crowds are usually at a minimum (compared to many other areas). Redundant statement alert...if they had better access to the summit it would be even better. Not sure they would ever brake any records for skier visits if they added a HSQ to the top but I guess that is partly why they have never replaced the dinosaur triple, no ROI.

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## abc (Dec 26, 2019)

Drove by today on my way home (after a couple hours of xc skiing). The parking lot looked almost full! 

Though the lifts and slopes didn't look too busy still. Could be the people were having their lunch break though. Anyway, crowd doesn't appear to be too much of an issue from where I'm looking at.


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## kickstand (Dec 26, 2019)

prsboogie said:


> Glad you had a good day out. They do have a bunch of fun trails and crowds are usually at a minimum (compared to many other areas). Redundant statement alert...if they had better access to the summit it would be even better. Not sure they would ever brake any records for skier visits if they added a HSQ to the top but I guess that is partly why they have never replaced the dinosaur triple, no ROI.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using AlpineZone mobile app



The upper half of the mountain is on forest service land.  The permits are a pain in the rear to get to upgrade the summit triple.  Won't happen any time soon.  And to be honest, I enjoy the slow trip up.  Plenty of time to recover and lots of time for conversation.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 26, 2019)

At the very least they should put conveyor loading on the triple and speed it up by 20%.  Bring the ride down from 15 minutes to 12.

I don't ski Attitash frequently.  I basically only go there during natural snow droughts when I'm bored with the limited groomer terrain at Cat or I'll also head there in the spring because it softens much earlier in the day.  I dig the trails off the top of the triple, it's the best terrain on the mountain. But I get annoyed coming from the badass quad at Cat easily skiing 10k vert an hour to less than half that at Tash.

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## dblskifanatic (Dec 27, 2019)

Never had good experiences at Attitash.  Went on days where the Ride and Ski event was and every time is was super firm.  Did not enjoy the slow summit lift either.  The quad put too many people on Highway - the cross cross that cuts up the black runs creating weird traffic patterns when it is busy.  Bear is IMO the better side but the lift line has typically been deep.  The lodge gets easily over crowded.


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## Edd (Dec 27, 2019)

I’ll ski Attitash every year between 1-3 times or so. I enjoy spring days there, taking it slow and having beers on the deck at the Attitash side. That’ll only be if there’s an issue with Wildcat, which happens with the elevation difference. 


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## abc (Dec 27, 2019)

dblskifanatic said:


> Bear is IMO the better side but the lift line has typically been deep.  The lodge gets easily over crowded.


I’m surprised about that. I would have thought Bear side would be the quiet side. 

Wasn’t busy Christmas day. But yesterday was much busier as I drove by. Parking lot was packed. Lots of people milling about.


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## Newpylong (Dec 29, 2019)

kickstand said:


> The upper half of the mountain is on forest service land.  The permits are a pain in the rear to get to upgrade the summit triple.  Won't happen any time soon.  And to be honest, I enjoy the slow trip up.  Plenty of time to recover and lots of time for conversation.



The permits will not be worse than a VT ACT 250 filing, IE you file a year in advance and expect to do your homework. Permits are not the impediment to replacement, it's been ownership.

There was another mechanical issue this weekend, hopefully it factors into Broomfield's decision.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Hopefully Katz recognizes soon that the main summit lift at his third largest Eastern toy is a hunk of crap and pathetic even when it does run.  

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## Edd (Dec 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Hopefully Katz recognizes soon that the main summit lift at his third largest Eastern toy is a hunk of crap and pathetic even when it does run.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



Maybe 4th largest, right? Stowe, Okemo, Mt Snow. And probably not the 4th busiest with Sunapee and Hunter in the mix. 

I wonder if Attitash itself is as valuable as the cost of a HSQ to the summit.


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## snoseek (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm not convinced Vail will do all that much there. They don't seem to invest all that much on areas that don't make them a shitload of money. They've not done any replacement at Kirkwood since they bought in 2012 and some of those lifts are pretty beat up.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 29, 2019)

Edd said:


> Maybe 4th largest, right? Stowe, Okemo, Mt Snow. And probably not the 4th busiest with Sunapee and Hunter in the mix.
> 
> I wonder if Attitash itself is as valuable as the cost of a HSQ to the summit.


probably right.  4th largest.  And yes, probably 6th busiest. 

I think if they were to look at the history of Attitash, they used to average around 200k skier visits.  These days more like 150k.  I attribute that loss almost entirely on them having the crappiest summit lift of any major Eastern ski area.  

50k skiers is a ton of revenue to be missing.  

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## Edd (Dec 29, 2019)

Interesting, as the cost of real estate in the area has risen sharply in recent years. I think Cranmore is doing decent business. Honestly not sure about BW or even Wildcat because I only go weekdays. 


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## SkiingInABlueDream (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm betting Vail replaces that lift within a couple seasons. From a regional perspective that lift is now a major blemish on Vail Resorts. It's about corporate image.


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## EPB (Dec 29, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> probably right.  4th largest.  And yes, probably 6th busiest.
> 
> I think if they were to look at the history of Attitash, they used to average around 200k skier visits.  These days more like 150k.  I attribute that loss almost entirely on them having the crappiest summit lift of any major Eastern ski area.
> 
> ...


This is right on.

1998 was the last year that Attitash got a new lift (Flying Yankee). Since then, the following NH resorts installed high speed lifts:

Bretton Woods (x3)
Cannon
Crotched
Gunstock
Loon (x2)
Ragged (x2)
Sunapee (x2 if you include the summit, which was also installed in 1998)

Cranmore and BW also installed new beginner lifts since 1998, and the double-doubles at Attitash are an abomination. My solution (which won't happen) would be to replace the summit triple with a six pack. Install a mid unload just above highway to make the Yankee unnecessary. Move the Yankee to the double-doubles.

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## kickstand (Dec 30, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> The permits will not be worse than a VT ACT 250 filing, IE you file a year in advance and expect to do your homework. Permits are not the impediment to replacement, it's been ownership.



https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/NewHampshire/attitash.php

"The original Old Reliable double chairlift was finally retired following  the 1997-98 season.  In its place, the Flying Yankee Express high speed  quad was installed.  Its relatively short length could be attributed to  the private property boundary and thus avoidance of significant  National Forest permits and lease fees."

It's not an official Attitash site, but these guys seem to have a good idea what's going on.  Combine it with the limited downhill capacity from the summit, and it's highly unlikely they will put in a HS quad.


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## Newpylong (Dec 31, 2019)

I typically don't post conjecture on here.

If the money is ever obtained, the snowmaking on Wildred's will be replaced (since a Boyd froze it, had a hissy fit, and ordered it disconnected permanently). With that fixed there is sufficient downhill capacity and they will install a HSQ.

The wish list also includes doing something with the double doubles.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2019)

Move the triple with carpet load to the double doubles.  

Could also reduce number of chairs to limit downhill capacity from a summit HSQ

For whatever psychological reason, most modern skiers are fine with a 14 minute lift line for a 6 minute ride vs a 6 minute lift line for a 14 minute ride. 

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## EPB (Dec 31, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Could also reduce number of chairs to limit downhill capacity from a summit HSQ
> 
> For whatever psychological reason, most modern skiers are fine with a 14 minute lift line for a 6 minute ride vs a 6 minute lift line for a 14 minute ride.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I've probably mentioned this before, but the Flying Bear only runs at ~1800 skiers per hour capacity at full speed. That's roughly top design capacity for a triple. The same could easily be done on the Attitash side. I've definitely mentioned that the capacity of the triple and top notch double (both work horses pre Flying Yankee; people did use the mid station on the double though) roughly approximate the capacity of a high speed quad. 

Vail could probably run a HSQ at full capacity to the summit if they cut a green boulevard from Saco back into Ammonoosuc. 

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## EPB (Dec 31, 2019)

I actually had some time in front of the computer to sketch this out, but this is what I'd like to see happen:

1) Six pack w. mid station to replace the triple; Yankee to double-doubles the following year (won't interrupt summer business that way) 
2) A green boulevard off the summit to handle more traffic
3) Optional additional runs going back into the green run
4) Widened Ammonoosuc/Lower Cathedral to handle more traffic where green trail enters
5) Cut extensions to Moat, Carrigan and back to old Yankee summit to the mid station
6) Actually use Carrigan as an egress to allow more intermediates to ski lower Ptarmigan and Whitehorse
7) Rate Spillway blue from the double-double summit down
8) Create an opening from Spillway into Lower Whitehorse (and restrict access from Whitehorse to Spillway on Highway)
9) Make Alley Way an oblivious way back to the main base area for beginners


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## deadheadskier (Dec 31, 2019)

A trail over there would be nice.  A green would be tough to pull off given capacity, but another Saco like trail heading down to Ammo would help.  You'd probably need to widen Ammo as well.  

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## EPB (Dec 31, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> A trail over there would be nice.  A green would be tough to pull off given capacity, but another Saco like trail heading down to Ammo would help.  You'd probably need to widen Ammo as well.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


You'd probably need a hairpin situation for a section or two. It does get steep over there. Agreed on Ammo, too.

I'm also curious to see what happens with the Spillway/Thads intersection near the base. My convoluted stuff over there could enable Vail to put up fencing at the bottom of Spillway and Thads to essentially force traffic back to the current double-double area (the choice to go summit or beginner area would need to be made above Alley Way). 

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## abc (Dec 31, 2019)

Anyone skied Attitash yesterday or today? How’s the condition? How’s the crowd?


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## xlr8r (Jan 1, 2020)

abc said:


> Anyone skied Attitash yesterday or today? How’s the condition? How’s the crowd?



Was at Attitash on the 31st, Wildcat the 30th.  Attitash seemed to get heavier dense snow than Wildcat but still got a foot of it.  No rope drops and Ski Patrol was out there yelling at anyone attempting to duck.  Everything open got bumped up quick not enough trails open to spread everyone out yet but never waited in a lift line longer than 3 minutes.  Spent most of my time on the Bear Peak side even though there were only about 3 ways down over there, the Attitash side lift and trail layout is just bad.  Bet all the grooming is excellent today.


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## abc (Jan 1, 2020)

Proximity wins. I was staying at the AMC Joe Dodge lodge. 1/4 down the road from Wildcat. So that's where I went today. 

But I've scratched my Attitash itch. It was good in the right situation. I'll keep that in my mind in the future.


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