# PSA - Denatured alcohol is NOT a non-polar solvent or: Marc learns more chemistry



## Marc (Sep 18, 2008)

So I was painting my freshly made bulkhead doors last night and I learned something that I had apparently never absorbed in all those chemistry classes I took.

I was using an oil based solid stain, white, real thick.  Like maple syrup thick.  I takes me a few hours to finish, and it's dark by the time I'm done.  And cold.  So I'm ready to clean up.

Marc needs a solvent.  Yes, in a last ditch effort to save a $3.00 paint brush, that's probably fifteen years old and very nearly worn out, I poured through $5.00 worth of denatured alcohol (ethanol) and got white paint ALL over my right hand, only to find out that ethanol does not, in fact, disolve oil based solutions.  Why?  It's too polar.

Son of a bitch.

Now one hand is completely coated in white.  The only other solvent-like I had around was acetone, and it's a good thing I didn't try, because apparently acetone is also too polar a compound.

What are good nonpolar solvents?  Well, turpentine is the classic which I didn't have.  Mineral spirits are a good, less toxic alternative to turpentine, but I didn't have any of that either.

I resorted to using gasoline, which in the end I realized was actually the cheapest nonpolar solvent anyway, despite it being expensive relative to what it once was.  Fortunately, it dissolved the stain quickly, and I washed up and went inside with freezing hands.

So the lesson learned?

Oil, being a fairly nonpolar compound itself, only dissolves readily in other nonpolar compounds.  A polar compound is considered such if it's dielectric constant is higher than 15.  Acetone's is 20.  Ethanol (denatured alcohol) is 24.  No wonder it didn't work.

Gasoline (on the other hand)- 2.0
Turpentine- 2.2
Mineral Spirits- 2.8

So- thankfully I didn't go to work with a white stained hand today.  I have a feeling I'd have had a lot of explaining to do...


----------



## severine (Sep 18, 2008)

Marc said:


> So- thankfully I didn't go to work with a white stained hand today.  I have a feeling I'd have had a lot of explaining to do...


I have a feeling they would expect nothing less from you.


----------



## billski (Sep 18, 2008)

Marc, you may now be at risk for bipolar disorder.

Explaining to do?  They probably know you well enough by now that they would write it off to "Marc being Marc"....
:beer:


----------



## Marc (Sep 18, 2008)

Yeah, now that I think of it, since I've worked here for over three years, I probably wouldn't have that much explaining to do.


----------



## Greg (Sep 18, 2008)

Why would you have denatured alcohol and acetone lying around?


----------



## Marc (Sep 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> Why would you have denatured alcohol and acetone lying around?



Doesn't everybody?

I don't know.  I use it for.... stuff....


----------



## Vortex (Sep 18, 2008)

Mark don't use those solvents on your hands they casue long term big effects on you liver. 

 Clean your brush with coca-cola or use a non solvent thinner.  Stay away from xylol toluol, mek, mineral spirits.  Ipa is the least nasty, but only cleans, does not break down stuff.  It does effect the curing or certain products. Clean you hands with the product called scrubs.  Its citrius base with pumice"  light aggregate" for abrasion. Much safer and you will be here longer to tell crazy stoires.  Pm me if you want more info.  I sound uptight about it, but famillair with the deal.


----------



## billski (Sep 18, 2008)

Greg said:


> Why would you have denatured alcohol and acetone lying around?



To cleanup after painting your toenails of course!


----------



## Vortex (Sep 18, 2008)

Its amazing that acetone is regulated for commercial use, but you can buy nail polish remover in a store.  I freak out when the ladies in my family want to use it.


----------



## Marc (Sep 18, 2008)

Bob R said:


> Mark don't use those solvents on your hands they casue long term big effects on you liver.
> 
> Clean your brush with coca-cola or use a non solvent thinner.  Stay away from xylol toluol, mek, mineral spirits.  Ipa is the least nasty, but only cleans, does not break down stuff.  It does effect the curing or certain products. Clean you hands with the product called scrubs.  Its citrius base with pumice"  light aggregate" for abrasion. Much safer and you will be here longer to tell crazy stoires.  Pm me if you want more info.  I sound uptight about it, but famillair with the deal.



I was wearing gloves.

White stuff all over my hands was a bit of an exageration, but it made for a better story.


----------



## Beetlenut (Sep 18, 2008)

Marc said:


> I was wearing gloves.
> 
> White stuff all over my hands was a bit of an exageration, but it made for a better story.


 
That's ok. We all know you make half this stuff up anyway! :grin:


----------



## Vortex (Sep 18, 2008)

cool.  I know folks who have died from cancer most likely due to solvent exposure. Not just touching, but breathing solvents.
 I'm sure you are  aware of this stuff in your industry.


----------



## Marc (Sep 18, 2008)

Bob R said:


> Its amazing that acetone is regulated for commercial use, but you can buy nail polish remover in a store.  I freak out when the ladies in my family want to use it.



I freak out more about how ridiculously volatile it is more so than its toxicity.


----------



## Marc (Sep 18, 2008)

Bob R said:


> cool.  I know folks who have died from cancer most likely due to solvent exposure. Not just touching, but breathing solvents.
> I'm sure you are  aware of this stuff in your industry.



Well, only certain solvents exhibit the potential to be carcinogenic.

Water, for instance, is one sovlent that in all likelihood is not a carcinogen.


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 18, 2008)

Bob R said:


> I sound uptight about it, but famillair with the deal.



Remind me not to let you see my paint closet- Acetone, TSP, alcohol, linseed oil, mineral spirits, plain old paint thinner, 3-4 kinds of strippers (they have to be seperated from the hookers in the other closet. Too much competition), muritic acid. All kinds of fun stuff. Amazing what you can buy at the hardware store, no questions asked.

Will agree on the pumice, though- very little works as well as physical abrasion. A little tough on the hands in bad cases, but "safe".


----------



## Vortex (Sep 18, 2008)

I prefer chlorinated chemicalized water myself.  All the solvents I'm aware of are not pretty.  I deal with the Msds files. Again not regulated for consumer use and very regulated for commercial use.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 18, 2008)

ctenidae said:


> Remind me not to let you see my paint closet- Acetone, TSP, alcohol, linseed oil, mineral spirits, plain old paint thinner, 3-4 kinds of strippers (they have to be seperated from the hookers in the other closet. Too much competition), muritic acid. All kinds of fun stuff. Amazing what you can buy at the hardware store, no questions asked.
> 
> Will agree on the pumice, though- very little works as well as physical abrasion. A little tough on the hands in bad cases, but "safe".




don'[t go there on the acids.  I push people away fom them.  Green does work with some of the products.

I would just love to see us all around in the future.


----------



## ctenidae (Sep 18, 2008)

Bob R said:


> don'[t go there on the acids.  I push people away fom them.  Green does work with some of the products.
> 
> I would just love to see us all around in the future.



True, true. But nothing etches concrete like muritic acid, and when you've got to etch concrete, you've got to etch it good.


----------



## Vortex (Sep 18, 2008)

No muriatic is not purified and you get rust stains very frequently.  A more refined/ purified  acid or mechanical abrasion is a much better form of surface prep.  I'm off my know it all perch now.:dunce:  If you ever want advice let me know. I owe you some back.:beer:


----------



## drjeff (Sep 18, 2008)

Marc said:


> Well, only certain solvents exhibit the potential to be carcinogenic.
> 
> Water, for instance, is one sovlent that in all likelihood is not a carcinogen.



Yup, but if you drink too much of it it can knock you off too


----------



## Trekchick (Sep 18, 2008)

How'd the paint job turn out?


----------



## Paul (Sep 18, 2008)

Muriatic acid is good for cleaning barnacles/algae/ sea crud etc... off of brass. Cleans-up old portholes and such real nice. 

/My closet is a lot like Ctenadae's
//Although I do agree with BobR, Scrubs are teh rockzorz!
///And Marc's a dumbass.
////Gonna spread the slashies like a virus


----------



## mondeo (Sep 18, 2008)

I prefer to use dihydrogen monoxide as a polar solvent, but there are concrete links to cancer:

http://www.dhmo.org/cancer.html

And it's bad for the environment:

http://www.dhmo.org/environment.html


----------



## Marc (Sep 19, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> How'd the paint job turn out?



Turned out quite nice, although the painting was the easy part... building the two new doors so they fit and were actually square was a bigger accomplishment for me.  I'm not what anyone would call a carpenter, in any shape or form.


----------



## Marc (Sep 19, 2008)

Paul said:


> Muriatic acid is good for cleaning barnacles/algae/ sea crud etc... off of brass. Cleans-up old portholes and such real nice.
> 
> /My closet is a lot like Ctenadae's
> //Although I do agree with BobR, Scrubs are teh rockzorz!
> ...



Bad farker.


----------



## Paul (Sep 19, 2008)

Marc said:


> Bad farker.



This!











wait, what?


----------

