# Strict Ski Patrol at Jay Peak



## dblskifanatic (Apr 7, 2021)

I do not know the context of this whole story and not sure if it is told accurately but was on FB and this was posted there today - I will leave it like that but did seem harsh.

Today was a bad day unfortunately. Two of my friends and I decided to go to Jay Peak today which is not the mountain to be on this spring. The customer service rep when I was activating my pass was curt and rude. I get it though, lots of people and it's been a long season. After my pass was activated we took 4 runs. One up the bonnie, one on the taxi, one on the flyer and finally one on the jet. Now my friend who I was skiing with is a racer and went too fast on the straight long trail. There are signs that said no straight lining which I failed to see along with him. This is his fault and he did not try and hide the fact. However, upon our second ascension on the Jet we were stopped at the top by a patroller named Jeff. He wouldn't say his last name. He said that there was no straight lining the jet and that my friend was going too fast.
You know what Jeff, you were probably right. He did need to slow down. Jeff told us all to slow down despite the fact that me and our second friend were making nice turns the whole way and finished our runs after our hot headed buddy. Next he asked for our passes. Odd request, but hey, we are 23 years old and borrow passes all the time. So we give them to him expecting everything to check out but we were mistaken again. Jeff told us that we were done skiing for the day because of the speed violation. Again, only one guy was going too fast. A simple "slow down" would have worked. We, after all, are understanding people. But no, pulled all three of our passes on the spot. When we reached the bottom of what was our last run and sought out someone who could fix this problem.
To the head patroller, I get it. I'm sorry I got mad but you were in the wrong and you know it. We got no warning. We got no "slow down." Just three pulled passes for one guy straight lining the second half of a run. Which, the guilty by affiliation thing is a little suspect to me. That said, please if you are skiing Jay Peak be cautious that you don't go too fast as every person on the patrol squad is really afraid of this. Furthermore, based on the discussion I had with the patrollers there has been a real problem with people falling and getting hurt because people are going too fast. Now, I don't know how they prove the correlation between people going fast and other people getting hurt but I'm not here to argue that. What I am here to say is that if you are a college kid/young professional and a confident skier you should stay away from Jay unless you would like to be highly scrutinized. At least, that was my experience.
Finally, to Jay Peak. It's been a ride. I grew up skiing you along with Burke. I am saddened to see you succumb to the pressures of corporate ski culture. You lost 3 customers today and I wish that weren't so.


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## jaytrem (Apr 7, 2021)

Ridiculous that that pulled the speeders pass without a warn.  Crazy ridiculous that they pulled all 3.

Just checked with my friend Jeff who works there, wasn't him!


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## Domeskier (Apr 7, 2021)

I know they had an incident 5-10 years ago where on off-duty employee seriously injured a kid while speeding through a beginner's area.  Wouldn't be surprised if that led them to implement a zero-tolerance policy toward speeding.


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## JimG. (Apr 7, 2021)

Between stuff like this, megapasses, and upcharges to access trams I'm guessing the ski industry is hell bent on self destruction.


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## ne_skier (Apr 7, 2021)

Just another person on an ego trip who needs to prove to other people that they mean something. Typically I see this stuff exhibited in the "rangers", and I have had my run-ins with them. I'm almost more pissed at management for not renouncing this guy for what is pretty much the most un-justified pass grab I've seen, perhaps they didn't want to make him sad or some shit. It's honestly incredible how resorts can treat customers like this and still expect people to show up. I don't know if you guys also feel this way, but for me, skiing is a liberating experience. It doesn't pair well with some ski cop snipping tickets so he can feel powerful, and an inept management team that sends out copy-paste emails and refuses to do anything about the problem.


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## Smellytele (Apr 7, 2021)

The signs are pretty big and you have to ski right pass them as they are in the middle of the top of the trail. It is a steep trail but a lot of low intermediate skiers ski it as it the shortest easiest way down off the Jet. 
with that said pulling the passes of all three was pretty assine.


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## 2planks2coasts (Apr 7, 2021)

I could see it.  Jay has decent terrain and snow (No, it is not Europe or "Out West" as some fans think) but the employees seem to be looking for reasons to exercise their authority.  I ski with a backpack and like many mountains, jay doesn't let you ride the lifts with a pack on your back.  Understandable and common.  I normally slip it off my shoulders and swing it around front and hold it while leaving the waist belt buckled.   Earlier this season a Jay lifty told me I couldn't leave the belt buckled. I asked why and got a lecture about how if it catches on the chair, I'll get hung up, etc, etc.  I replied that by unbuckling a belt that's pretty flush with my jacket, I create two dangling buckle parts that are much more likely to get hung up.  I was told if I "backtalked again, I'd lose my pass".


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## ne_skier (Apr 7, 2021)

How dare you break his stride and suggest that you have reasoning behind your decision-making, you could expose him to the intellect of the "normal people"!


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## ss20 (Apr 7, 2021)

I noticed the "no straight-lining The Jet" signs last week for the first time.  What is the point...it's black terrain ffs.  

Patrols vary mountain-to-mountain and patroller-to-patroller.  I've been caught dead-in-the-water at Killington on closed terrain by patrollers and never had the pass pulled or even given a real stern talking to.  Just quick warnings.


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## ss20 (Apr 7, 2021)

Luckily, most patrollers are like cops and don't give a damn about "breaking" rules as long as you're not endangering anyone.  But it doesn't make sense in the Jay Peak context.  Go fast on green terrain you should get a warning and/or your pass pulled....l that's like doing 40mph on a NYC street or running a red light ...legitimately dangerous for others.  But going fast on a black run is like that bored cop who pulls you over for doing 72mph on the freeway at 2am with no one on the road.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 8, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I noticed the "no straight-lining The Jet" signs last week for the first time.  What is the point...it's black terrain ffs.
> 
> Patrols vary mountain-to-mountain and patroller-to-patroller.  I've been caught dead-in-the-water at Killington on closed terrain by patrollers and never had the pass pulled or even given a real stern talking to.  Just quick warnings.



Not sure how busy it was but as trails begin to shut down Jet starts to experience much more traffic.  Last time we skied Jay Peak in the spring, that trail was busy with skiers with different abilities.  The advanced skiers spend all day blowing the doors off slower skiers.  

However,  a consideration from ski patrols perspective should be when a bunch of beginners bottle neck a trail it would be nice to ex[plain to them that they ski else where since it is dangerous like a car driving in the fast lane of a freeway going 40 MPH.  At A Basin, during early and late season, that is the approach they take.


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## ThatGuy (Apr 8, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I noticed the "no straight-lining The Jet" signs last week for the first time.  What is the point...it's black terrain ffs.
> 
> Patrols vary mountain-to-mountain and patroller-to-patroller.  I've been caught dead-in-the-water at Killington on closed terrain by patrollers and never had the pass pulled or even given a real stern talking to.  Just quick warnings.


Yesterday at Killi I cut through the woods to a closed trail and the patrollers said I must be lost and laughed. Really don’t understand the draconian measures some feel the need to take.


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## ne_skier (Apr 8, 2021)

Meanwhile, Plattekill ski patrol dares people to ski closed runs


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## kingslug (Apr 8, 2021)

Its why some people move to Europe..where they don't care if you jump off a cliff to your death. Coombs got tossed out of JH for skiing closed runs..and went to France. They have good bread there.


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## Domeskier (Apr 8, 2021)

I can see ski patrol being more lenient with someone skiing a closed trail and putting only themselves at risk versus straight-lining a trail used by skiers of mixed abilities.  The decision to pull the passes of the straight-liner's pals - with or without a warning - does seem draconian, but all we have here is one side of the story.  I guess the big lesson here is to never voluntarily hand over a pass to ski patrol.


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## cdskier (Apr 8, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> I can see ski patrol being more lenient with someone skiing a closed trail and putting only themselves at risk versus straight-lining a trail used by skiers of mixed abilities.  The decision to pull the passes of the straight-liner's pals - with or without a warning - does seem draconian, but all we have here is one side of the story.  I guess the big lesson here is to never voluntarily hand over a pass to ski patrol.



At any area using RFID, it really wouldn't matter whether you hand over your pass or not. It wouldn't take much work to figure out who you were and suspend your pass even without you handing it over.

Agree though that we only have 1 side of the story. There certainly could be more to this. If there isn't more to this though, then it does seem pretty harsh.


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## MG Skier (Apr 8, 2021)

I saw the signs at the top of the Jet last weekend as well. I asked a my local friends I was skiing with and they thought that someone got hurt earlier in the year. BTW the Jet was fantastic Saturday and early on Sunday, quick indeed!


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## Smellytele (Apr 8, 2021)

MG Skier said:


> I saw the signs at the top of the Jet last weekend as well. I asked a my local friends I was skiing with and they thought that someone got hurt earlier in the year. BTW the Jet was fantastic Saturday and early on Sunday, quick indeed!


Saturday There was a guy on that trail that wiped out, lost a ski and started to slide. His ski traveled down 40-50’. He stopped but decided to take off his other ski. When he was trying to I was saying to myself and chair mates that he shouldn’t. When he did he slid right past his other ski. He then attempted to try to put them back on and made the rookie mistake of putting his up hill ski on first and couldn’t get enough pressure on the downhill ski to click in and started to slide again. As I skied down the trees off to skiers right I saw Three ski patrollers that came down to try to help him and still he couldn’t get the ski on.  They finally guided him to the edge were he must have gotten it on as he wasn’t there when I road the jet back up. He should not have been on that trail.
Saw another woman fall and slide . She actually turned on purpose to face down hill and just kept sliding


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## 2Planker (Apr 8, 2021)

Sometimes It's tooooo good to resist.

 In over 35 years I think I've pulled 2-3 tix/passes, and that was for jumping off the lift on the Aurora chair after a 36" dumping....


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## MG Skier (Apr 8, 2021)

...when I first visited Jay in 2004 when, I couldn't really ski, I NEVER skied the Jet for fear of falling on steep terrain. Have I fallen on it yes, but get up and move! I still am unhappy how I ski the top 2/3rds, but I don't fall! I guess I missed that one. Unfortunately I did see someone hurt on the Goat, I think it was Saturday. Hope they are okay.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

Considering that Jay is still in receivership and lost about 60-80% of its business this year due to the border being shut I would imagine that folks are on a short fuse due to pressure to keep costs down and avoid risks (including cracking down on liabilities).  Perhaps ski patrol DID yell at them and they did not hear them.  I don't know the facts of what happened so I can't pass any judgment.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 8, 2021)

i dont believe the version of the story in the original post.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 8, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> i dont believe the version of the story in the original post.


Yes, we've only heard one side.


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## kbroderick (Apr 8, 2021)

Domeskier said:


> I can see ski patrol being more lenient with someone skiing a closed trail and putting only themselves at risk versus straight-lining a trail used by skiers of mixed abilities.  The decision to pull the passes of the straight-liner's pals - with or without a warning - does seem draconian, but all we have here is one side of the story.  I guess the big lesson here is to never voluntarily hand over a pass to ski patrol.


a) almost every pass I've had included language either on the card or in a waiver about it remaining property of the resort and being required to surrender it if so required
a.i) refusing to hand over a pass or ticket is almost never going to improve the outcome for you
b) skiing closed trails doesn't just endanger you; if you get hurt, guess who gets to come get you? As tempting as it might be to leave someone writhing in pain because they ducked a rope, I don't think it's going to happen.
c) the first set of tracks down a closed trail generally invites more

I'm all for aggressive trail openings and I'll plead the fifth as to whether or not I've ducked ropes, but I understand why it can be a rather touchy subject.

When I was patrolling, I never had need to pull a pass, but (see above) I may be more sympathetic to questionable judgement than some. If the same kids had given me attitude when I called them over, they probably would've ended up without tickets. Had they tried to take off, I think I would've laughed, radioed it in, and then given them a short head start to make it sporting.  YMMV, of course.

I'm also on the "we're not hearing the whole story here" bus, until and unless I hear evidence to the contrary. I've worked with patrollers who were draconian, but even for them, the story as relayed would be a bit much.


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## jaytrem (Apr 8, 2021)

Most patrollers are great, but every so often you run into an idiot.  I think I've had 2 confrontations with patrollers my entire life.  Both times they were completely in the wrong.

First time I got yelled at for "ducking a rope" to get a shovel.  It was back in the "Bear Trap Bump Off" at Mount Snow.  The initial jump build wasn't holding up, so my friend/event organizer asked me to go garb the shovel from the judging area.  That area just happened to be surrounded by ropes right near the lift lines.  I "duck the rope", grab the shovel and next thing know some moron patroller is giving me a hard time.  Let's just say the crowd at the lift was not on his side and I received no penalty.  Whole thing was just a ridiculous power play that made no sense.

Second time was when I got yelled at for skiing an open trail.  They just opened a crossover from Canyon to the quad at Mount Snow.  I got a little stuck near the lift (snowboarding) and some patroller above me on the quad said something.  I figured it was probably a patroller friend making a silly comment about me getting stuck, I laughed and gave him a big smile.  I guess he didn't like my smile, because when I arrived at the top of the lift he was waiting for me.  He immediately (and unprofessionally) ripped into me for skiing a closed trail and just laughing at him when he yelled from the lift.  Admittedly that set me off a bit.  I called him a few choice words while informing him that the trail was indeed open.  I invited him to take a run me with me to check it out, or even go get his supervisor so we can discuss further. He grumbled something about "not having time for this" and skied off.  I guess he figured I was probably correct about the trail being open.  I just don't get the unprofessional yelling part, don't start with that and we can have a civilized conversation about whether I was skiing on a closed trail or not.

Other than that I've had nothing but great experiences with patrollers.  Special shout out to one at Keystone who spent an entire afternoon giving me a tour of the trees and bumps.  Guess he didn't want me to get hurt skiing alone.    Also to Cheryl for hauling me down from Beartrap when I sliced my knee open.  She gave me a nice speedy ride, but we did find time to stop for a picture.  Local newspaper ended up using it as a stock photo.  I am referred to as "occupant" in the caption.  Friends got a kick out of that.


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## Domeskier (Apr 8, 2021)

kbroderick said:


> a) almost every pass I've had included language either on the card or in a waiver about it remaining property of the resort and being required to surrender it if so required
> a.i) refusing to hand over a pass or ticket is almost never going to improve the outcome for you



When your pass is being revoked, handing it over is not voluntary.


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## crank (Apr 8, 2021)

Only experience I ever had with Jay patrol was a good one.

Way back in the early '80s  before the place was really discovered, before they had glades on the map, my Brother in law and I were skiing a powder morning and there were 2 sets of tracks ahead of us on every trail our first 4 or 5 runs.  We eventually caught up to a pair of patrollers on Uller's Dream and they pointed towards present day Beaver Pond and told us if we wanted we could ski the trees down to the xc trail and that would lead us back to the base.  We did!

I have skied many a closed run there and never had any issues.  Not one to go super fast but if you're gonna do that I would say don't blow by a slow skiing sign.  

That said I have had issues with cops and security guards who seemed to have a Napoleon complex or just a really big stick shoved up there ass.


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## jaytrem (Apr 8, 2021)

I felt real bad for the patrollers at Snoqualmie the other day.  They were dealing with a disagreement between customers that resulted in a bit of an assault.  One guy asked another to turn down his radio (curse filled lyrics).  He didn't take to kindly to that and argument ensued.  Complainer guy's girlfriend/wife takes out a phone to start recording.  Radio guy's girlfriend/wife grabs the other girls arm and tries to wrestle the phone from her.  Crowd gets a bit involved and radio guy and friends go around the lift to the other line and jump 3/4 of the line.  This was Hidden Valley area, so no way out except the lift.  Guy behind me vehemently insists patrollers get involved and they do.  They looked very reluctant, I'm sure that was not in the job description.  Radio guy and friend get to the merge point and patrol asks them to step out of the line, the girlfriend/wife starts screaming about needing to get back to her car.  Could still hear the arguing as we rode up the lift.  Radio guy screaming something about the other guy should have minded his own f'n business.  When we got back to the true base are there were a number of security folk there, I assume waiting for the radio people.  Like I said, felt terrible that the patrollers had to deal with that nonsense.

Speaking of radios, when I was as Sugar in NC about a month ago, they had patrollers staffing the lift line for mask checking and also had anybody with a radio turn it off.  All the radio offenders that I saw were respectful and complied.

Final note on radios.  I've notice there a lot of females with the radios blaring these days.  Anyone else notice that?  Seems like that used to be a predominantly male thing.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 8, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> I felt real bad for the patrollers at Snoqualmie the other day.  They were dealing with a disagreement between customers that resulted in a bit of an assault.  One guy asked another to turn down his radio (curse filled lyrics).  He didn't take to kindly to that and argument ensued.  Complainer guy's girlfriend/wife takes out a phone to start recording.  Radio guy's girlfriend/wife grabs the other girls arm and tries to wrestle the phone from her.  Crowd gets a bit involved and radio guy and friends go around the lift to the other line and jump 3/4 of the line.  This was Hidden Valley area, so no way out except the lift.  Guy behind me vehemently insists patrollers get involved and they do.  They looked very reluctant, I'm sure that was not in the job description.  Radio guy and friend get to the merge point and patrol asks them to step out of the line, the girlfriend/wife starts screaming about needing to get back to her car.  Could still hear the arguing as we rode up the lift.  Radio guy screaming something about the other guy should have minded his own f'n business.  When we got back to the true base are there were a number of security folk there, I assume waiting for the radio people.  Like I said, felt terrible that the patrollers had to deal with that nonsense.
> 
> Speaking of radios, when I was as Sugar in NC about a month ago, they had patrollers staffing the lift line for mask checking and also had anybody with a radio turn it off.  All the radio offenders that I saw were respectful and complied.
> 
> Final note on radios.  I've notice there a lot of females with the radios blaring these days.  Anyone else notice that?  Seems like that used to be a predominantly male thing.



Like a bluetooth speaker?  Or Radio as in walkie talkie?


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## jaytrem (Apr 8, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Like a bluetooth speaker?  Or Radio as in walkie talkie?


Bluetooth speaker.  Loud F Bomb rap.


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## ThatGuy (Apr 8, 2021)

dblskifanatic said:


> Like a bluetooth speaker?  Or Radio as in walkie talkie?


Im guessing he means a bluetooth speaker. Seems to always go hand in hand with blaring expletive music.


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## jaytrem (Apr 8, 2021)

ThatGuy said:


> Im guessing he means a bluetooth speaker. Seems to always go hand in hand with blaring expletive music.


Correct, I'm old!  What the hell is this bluetooth I keep hearing about???


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## Not Sure (Apr 8, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> Correct, I'm old!  What the hell is this bluetooth I keep hearing about???


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## kingslug (Apr 8, 2021)

So it was so loud you could hear it through the helmet...good way to go deaf.


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## jimmywilson69 (Apr 8, 2021)

No they wear them in a back pack and let everyone hear their typically shitty music 

You haven't noticed this the past few years?

With the ladies its usually some terrible modern day country music


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## kingslug (Apr 8, 2021)

Nope..not really..not at Stowe SB gore or Hunter..but then again I have heavy metal playing in the noodle bucket so I really cant hear much anyway..But not loud enough for anyone to hear it..and I turn it off on the lift in case anyone talks to me.


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## cdskier (Apr 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Nope..not really..not at Stowe SB gore or Hunter..but then again I have heavy metal playing in the noodle bucket so I really cant hear much anyway..But not loud enough for anyone to hear it..and I turn it off on the lift in case anyone talks to me.


I've heard people with speakers a few times at SB this year. Not often, but I have heard it.


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## Domeskier (Apr 8, 2021)

kingslug said:


> Nope..not really..not at Stowe SB gore or Hunter..



I would have guessed Hunter to be ground zero for the bluetooth speaker crowd.  Were the busses not running this year?


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## jaytrem (Apr 8, 2021)

cdskier said:


> I've heard people with speakers a few times at SB this year. Not often, but I have heard it.


Not counting the deserted days I've skied, I'd say 90% of the days I've seen/heard them.  One guy at Silver Creek did have some entertaining George Carlin going for a bit. That was a bit odd.  Maybe the loudest of the year.  Also played Freebird, probably by request.


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## urungus (Apr 8, 2021)

jaytrem said:


> One guy at Silver Creek did have some entertaining George Carlin going for a bit. That was a bit odd.  Maybe the loudest of the year.



LOL


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## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

No buses anywhere..can't wait for that to start up again...oy.


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## AdironRider (Apr 9, 2021)

I've had patrol ask for my pass twice during a power struggle. I'm not handing that over and they can't detain you so they can shove it.


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## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

Its not like they can pin you to the ground and root around for your pass.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2021)

Yes, there is no need for Bluetooth speakers when skiing, riding, or hiking IMHO.  My all-time favorite scene was 3 or 4 years ago when I was hiking and came across a grown man in the middle of the hiking trail driving a remote control truck on the trail.  Just unreal.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 9, 2021)

And this thread reminds me of this gem.  I still suspect that this was staged because one can magically hear everything that is being said:


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## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

Well..there was once a time many moons ago I almost ended someone at Hunter. Almost completely empty day..On Hellgate with my first wife..out of nowhere boarder lands right on her..aired off the top of the run. Would be safe to say I almost killed him but a few people came over quickly. But then again they did kind of support the idea of a good beating. But that never ends well. I don't remember if patrol came by.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Meanwhile, Plattekill ski patrol dares people to ski closed runs



Pretty sure Plattekill's rule is, _"Please just dont die here"_.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 9, 2021)

Maybe Jay Peak is hoping to be acquired by Vail, and they figure acting as douchey as possible will improve their odds.


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## kingslug (Apr 9, 2021)

Possible...


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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2021)

BenedictGomez said:


> Maybe Jay Peak is hoping to be acquired by Vail, and they figure acting as douchey as possible will improve their odds.


Vail is sitting on about $1 billion in cash.  But that is for operations.  You of all people know that a few months ago they were having a bond sale to raise capital for operations.  Vail and Alterra were considering Jay as a purchase.  Then the pandemic happened.  Apparently, the receiver was not at all happy with the low bids he was getting for Jay.


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## ne_skier (Apr 10, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> And this thread reminds me of this gem.  I still suspect that this was staged because one can magically hear everything that is being said:


I've seen better acting in a middle school drug PSA


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## Newpylong (Apr 10, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> I've had patrol ask for my pass twice during a power struggle. I'm not handing that over and they can't detain you so they can shove it.


Except it doesn't work like that.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 11, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> Vail is sitting on about $1 billion in cash.  But that is for operations.



At this point, even if you wanted to forensically audit Vail in a fully professional way, it would be so complicated, so time encompassing, so arduous, and so expensive, that I cant imagine anyone undertaking it for virtually any reason.

And for that alone, Vail worries me.


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## Andrew B. (Apr 11, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> Except it doesn't work like that.


I always thought the same until I saw a guy this year tell a patroller “I didn’t do anything wrong and I am not giving you my pass” and ski away. Patroller just stood there. I didn’t see what they were arguing over but the patroller let him ski away un-impeded??? Maybe he called down to other patrollers but he certainly didn’t detain him there.


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## kingslug (Apr 11, 2021)

How could they detain him anyway?


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## Andrew B. (Apr 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> How could they detain him anyway?


I assume as part of customer service training they tell patrollers not to “get physical”. I watched the patroller turn and calmly walk back to the shack. I was waiting for a little something to happen but it didn’t.


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## Newpylong (Apr 11, 2021)

That's not the part I meant. If you detain someone you risk a kidnapping lawsuit, etc. No one is going to do that. You let them go and give the police the information and file a tresspass and theft of service charge. We had to do it several timew.

The pass part is what I was referring to. If you read the fine print you're required to turn it over when asked by mountain staff. I guess you could just ski away, but then you could be subject to my first paragraph. 

I'd say if someone has been asked twice to turn their pass over in a lifetime regardless they're doing something wrong.


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## jaytrem (Apr 11, 2021)

Newpylong said:


> That's not the part I meant. If you detain someone you risk a kidnapping lawsuit, etc. No one is going to do that. You let them go and give the police the information and file a tresspass and theft of service charge. We had to do it several timew.
> 
> The pass part is what I was referring to. If you read the fine print you're required to turn it over when asked by mountain staff. I guess you could just ski away, but then you could be subject to my first paragraph.
> 
> I'd say if someone has been asked twice to turn their pass over in a lifetime regardless they're doing something wrong.


Ehhh, I don't know about that.  The 2 times I was harrassed by ski patrol I did absolutly nothing wrong.


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## rebel1916 (Apr 11, 2021)

ne_skier said:


> Meanwhile, Plattekill ski patrol dares people to ski closed runs


My kid "Dad, I don't think we are supposed to cross that rope.  They must have put it there for a reason"

Me "It's there to warn off noobs and people who are gonna cry if their skis get some scratches on the base, they don't care"

Platty employee skiing up as I finish my  sentence "Have you guys been over there yet. how is it skiing?"

My daughter who hates being wrong skiing under the rope in complete silence.


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## 2Planker (Apr 11, 2021)

Andrew B. said:


> I assume as part of customer service training they tell patrollers not to “get physical”. I watched the patroller turn and calmly walk back to the shack. I was waiting for a little something to happen but it didn’t.


We ask to see their pass. To get the name, & # so it can be deactivated.  
If they don't want show it, Radio for back up, and follow them down to the lift. 
They won't be getting on the lift......

Never, touch the guest, be professional


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## kingslug (Apr 11, 2021)

But they could just go home at that point..and still keep their pass.


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## kbroderick (Apr 11, 2021)

kingslug said:


> But they could just go home at that point..and still keep their pass.


I've heard vehicle descriptions and plate numbers called in for the purpose of issuing a no trespass order. Yeah, disappearing into a condo probably skirts that issue, but you probably shouldn't reappear with any of the same equipment any time soon.

Honestly, as much as handing over your pass may suck, attempting to disappear takes the stakes up several notches. Speaking as someone who spent time patrolling and who also worked night manager on duty shifts (i.e. got to ask the condo throwing a party to respect the neighbors and quiet down), I very rarely went into a situation intending to bring up the subject of no-trespass orders or extended ski access bans. However, a belligerent guest could get me to that point fairly quickly, and I don't think I'm alone in that attitude.

I also knew that some of my colleagues on patrol had substantially different attitudes about some behavior and were more likely to escalate penalties without so much provocation. I'm sure that's generally true--patrol directors are going to know which patrollers are more likely to get excited about rules rather than just about actual safety risks. If you do your best to make nice after such a run in, you stand a much better chance of skiing there again than you do trying to disappear.


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## kingslug (Apr 12, 2021)

Thankfully I never had to deal with any of this.


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## AdironRider (Apr 12, 2021)

Good luck telling someone "hey, your ski coat looks just like someone I tried to power trip on last weekend and you can't ski here today". Let me know how that goes because no business is that stupid as that is a customer service nightmare.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 12, 2021)

I don't mind when in passing on a run but in a lift line - there is not escape.  Funny thing - if it is a song I like then it seems fine but that is not always the case.  Almost like a look at me, this is the cool music I listen to!

Where it is really bad is when you are hiking.  I am not out there for the music!


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2021)

I had this same conversation with a friend that patrols at Sugarbush.  We were discussing how they actually deal with people that go off the rails.  He does not get upset at much but he said this year he had a guy threaten him over a basic disagreement.  I guess the guy was out of control and nearly took out some kids.  When the patroller ski up to him to tell him to slow down, things escalated and he went off and threatened him.  He stood there and took it.  Let the guy ski off and followed him down.  Of course the guy got in line.  He waited till the guy went thought the RFID and then talk to the liftie and got his information.  His pass was shut off and he had to do the walk of shame down to the pass office to find out what was wrong.  When he got there it was a different story.  With the system they have, they know who you are where you live, how many runs you took, everything.  They don't have to engage with the idiot so things are a lot safer.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> I had this same conversation with a friend that patrols at Sugarbush.  We were discussing how they actually deal with people that go off the rails.  He does not get upset at much but he said this year he had a guy threaten him over a basic disagreement.  I guess the guy was out of control and nearly took out some kids.  When the patroller ski up to him to tell him to slow down, things escalated and he went off and threatened him.  He stood there and took it.  Let the guy ski off and followed him down.  Of course the guy got in line.  He waited till the guy went thought the RFID and then talk to the liftie and got his information.  His pass was shut off and he had to do the walk of shame down to the pass office to find out what was wrong.  When he got there it was a different story.  With the system they have, they know who you are where you live, how many runs you took, everything.  They don't have to engage with the idiot so things are a lot safer.


Exactly.  With RFID they can easily figure out who was the offender.


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## Hawk (Apr 12, 2021)

Another thing that Sugarbush's RFID can do is scan for people that share passes.  At least this is what I was told by one person.  Have you ever seen that camera attached to the RFID Gate infrastructure above? It takes pictures of you when you pass through and attaches them to your pass ID number.  I was told that at the end of the day they have software that scans the days photos and runs analysis.  if your coat or overall appearance changes too much it flags you and they Check it out.  If things don't jibe they shut you off.  Now I can't confirm this is going on currently but if it does thats pretty cool.


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## machski (Apr 12, 2021)

2Planker said:


> We ask to see their pass. To get the name, & # so it can be deactivated.
> If they don't want show it, Radio for back up, and follow them down to the lift.
> They won't be getting on the lift......
> 
> Never, touch the guest, be professional


In this day of RFID, not sure one even needs to see the pass anymore to deactivate it.  A quick photo of the guest probably would be enough to find and deactivate it or a hand scanner maybe as well.  They were using those for the passholder grab and go lunch this weekend at SR, it picked up the pass easier than the gates seem to.


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## 2Planker (Apr 12, 2021)

machski said:


> In this day of RFID, not sure one even needs to see the pass anymore to deactivate it.  A quick photo of the guest probably would be enough to find and deactivate it or a hand scanner maybe as well.  They were using those for the passholder grab and go lunch this weekend at SR, it picked up the pass easier than the gates seem to.


Photo ??  WTF  You want me to pull out my phone and ask the perp to pose for a picture ???? Ridiculous !
  Your Pass OR my Radio is all I need


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## Domeskier (Apr 12, 2021)

machski said:


> In this day of RFID, not sure one even needs to see the pass anymore to deactivate it.


I wonder if cloned RFID passes are or will become an issue for resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Apr 12, 2021)

Hawk said:


> Another thing that Sugarbush's RFID can do is scan for people that share passes.  At least this is what I was told by one person.  Have you ever seen that camera attached to the RFID Gate infrastructure above? It takes pictures of you when you pass through and attaches them to your pass ID number.  I was told that at the end of the day they have software that scans the days photos and runs analysis.  if your coat or overall appearance changes too much it flags you and they Check it out.  If things don't jibe they shut you off.  Now I can't confirm this is going on currently but if it does thats pretty cool.


Yeah, they have that at Deer Valley with signs explaining how it is "Identification Verification" and to prevent misuse.  Seems like overkill to me.  It's the complete opposite of how DV used to handle pass verification (personally checking tickets, using it as an opportunity to interact with customers).  I think it feels unwelcoming even though I am not doing anything wrong.  But Alterra needs to protect its $$$$ I guess.  

And is pass fraud a serious issue?  Can anyone in the biz say one way or the other?


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## jaytrem (Apr 12, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> And is pass fraud a serious issue?  Can anyone in the biz say one way or the other?



Yes, I know a LOT of people that have "borrowed" passes over the years.  I tend to give people a hard time about that.  Will says things like "Why are you teaching your daughter that it's okay to steal?".  Or ask them if they go into 7 Eleven and just walk out with whatever they want without paying?  Yeah, I know, I'm no fun.


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## AdironRider (Apr 12, 2021)

Obviously you would be done skiing for the day if a patroller tried to pull your pass and you deny him. But you live to ski another day.


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## kbroderick (Apr 12, 2021)

AdironRider said:


> Good luck telling someone "hey, your ski coat looks just like someone I tried to power trip on last weekend and you can't ski here today". Let me know how that goes because no business is that stupid as that is a customer service nightmare.


As a teenager, I got pulled off the hill and into the event & comps manager's office because someone else was skiing too fast, based on the description of "a black helmet and a blue jacket." I don't expect that's typical, but depending on the size of the mountain and how much the patroller saw (helmet brand and color, jacket color, and brand/color of boots and skis is a lot more specific than just helmet and jacket color).



Domeskier said:


> I wonder if cloned RFID passes are or will become an issue for resorts.


I'm assuming that there are encryption keys involved; if the data is encrypted with a modern algorithm and the keys kept secure, that should be a non-issue. Beyond that, if they're running AI against the gate photos, they should catch duplicated passes.

Re: pass fraud in general: yes, it's a real issue, even among groups that should know better (e.g. mountain employees)—the mountains that do a better job with access control will also be diligent about checking passes for uniformed employees. There are a lot of tricks to get by without getting checked, which I'll admit to having used to avoid needing to get a forgotten-pass day ticket, but I'm sure there are people out there using the same tricks (as well as plenty I've not thought of) to scam skiing, as well as people who choose to ski places and at times where they know the ticket-checking is lackadaisical at best.


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## KustyTheKlown (Apr 12, 2021)

my buddy bought his ikon pass ~3 seasons ago, and then found out his wife was pregnant like 2 weeks later. he tried to, i suppose, 'return' the pass, or maybe he had pass insurance that they didn't honor (i don't recall the specifics). but his pass was a total slut that season. it was shipped around the country to multiple people, used all over the damn place. no consequences. but i've definitely noticed that the pass photos popping up on lifties tablets since then, and there seems to be an active effort to catch people. would not be surpirsed if the lifties are paid a nice bonus bounty to get them to actually care.

the real simple scam at lots of places is to just skin to the upper mountain lifts. actually surprised that resorts with uphill access (basically all of them now) havent put rfid gates at upper mountain chairs. specifically thinking stratton, since everyone uphills to the same one peak, and neither ursa nor snowbowl have gates. stratton actually has no gates at all - lower mountain chairs have people with scanning guns, and a mounted scanning gun in a cabinet type thing. my ikon pass did not register one day this season at stratton because i missed the scan and then only skied upper mountain. i presume the skinner effect is a major reason for rfid gates at heavens gate and castlerock


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 13, 2021)

thetrailboss said:


> And is pass fraud a serious issue?  Can anyone in the biz say one way or the other?



Just go on Craigslist in March or April.  You'll see plenty of EPIC passes for sale.

"Male, about 6" tall" or "Female, 5'3" etc...


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

1 Point for me. 

“Friday’s hearing took place in a Florida federal court because that is where Quiros was living and where many of his businesses were based when the civil enforcement action was filed in 2016.”


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## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2022)

“De an vu all over again”



> Goldberg also said during the hearing that the sale of Burke Mountain Resort might be soon at hand. He did not disclose the potential buyer. Goldberg had testified at a court hearing earlier this year that he was pursuing a deal with Burke Mountain Academy, a world-class ski training school, involving some of its benefactors


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## BodeMiller1 (Oct 3, 2022)

Big Brother is real?

No one saw that coming. There is a difference between being asked to leave and being told Leave! and don't come back.


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