# Jay Peak Lift Rummors



## JPTracker (Jul 19, 2010)

Found this blog from a link over on Snow Journal.



> Now, this is interesting. Not that the last bit of news wasn't interesting but this is REALLY interesting.
> 
> Throckmorton reports that intelligence gathered on the summer tram ride included some as-yet-unveiled-by-Jay Management plans for lift relocation and even, GASP, a new lift!!!! This does not mean that the fabled West Bowl Expansion is happening any time soon. We have concluded that Throckmorton's and Gollum's children may be able to ski the West Bowl by chairlift. And for the non-family visitor, those boys are still teenagers. What it does mean is more skier capacity on the existing ski area, particularly Stateside, and better access to intermediate terrain on the lower mountain. This is scheduled to be ready for the 2011/12 ski season, according to our source. Shall we call him Deep Powder?
> 
> ...



1) The rumor I previously heard was the Bonnie being used to rebuilt the Jet

 2) I don't like the idea of a six pack for the Bonnie. Maybe to help with traffic they could add snow making to Upper Quai. Also they are loosing a lot of parking with the new Hotel Jay over on Tram Side but they are using all the dirt excavated to seriously increase the parking over on Stateside. With most people now having to come in from Stateside maybe the Six Pack makes sense.

3)  I also had heard that the Jet chair would be used to replace the Queens t-bar and would be used to give easier access to the terrain park. The only way this could happen from the area mention above is with a new trail right through  Buckaroo Bonzai Glade.


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 19, 2010)

I just saw the same posting.

The six pack idea might be worth while. From what I understand, the heavier chair than a HSQ is less prone to wind hold. That said, any high speed lift is more prone than a fixed grip. The benefits are significant in making the Bonnie Stateside's key transport lift. But...

Rumor three makes the transfer lift somewhat redundant with a new lift going from the TBar to Lower Goat. You can't really ski that as a "pod" and I don't see any added value in being able to ski the lower Tram trails instead of just sliding down to the Tram from the Tbar. A lift accessing the lower trails on Stateside would seem more appropriate (sadly) as that could provide a lower mountain lift (more resistant to wind hold perhaps) able to access lower mountain blues. That would need to go up to Taxi, as far to looker's left as possible to access the most terrain or involve a few cuts through some trails to access looker's left trails and provide access directly to the Jet cutoff. This would also serve as a great terrain park lift (keeping park kids off the main mountain lifts, woo hoo) and also provide access to Tramside via Taxi. This seems much more likely than hacking a lift up to Lower Goat.

For the record, I know nothing and that is only my commentary on the rumor and its pros/cons.

Regardless of what happens, it is amazing the amount of work they are putting into the entire resort in all aspects. It is nice to see that amongst the larger 4 season resort items that upgrades to the skiing infrastructure are being made significantly if any of these three rumors pan out. Seems like a replacement of the Bonnie and a rebuild of the Jet are the most certain per JPTracker's prior reports.


----------



## riverc0il (Jul 19, 2010)

I just saw the same posting.

The six pack idea might be worth while. From what I understand, the heavier chair than a HSQ is less prone to wind hold. That said, any high speed lift is more prone than a fixed grip. The benefits are significant in making the Bonnie Stateside's key transport lift. But...

Rumor three makes the transfer lift somewhat redundant with a new lift going from the TBar to Lower Goat. You can't really ski that as a "pod" and I don't see any added value in being able to ski the lower Tram trails instead of just sliding down to the Tram from the Tbar. A lift accessing the lower trails on Stateside would seem more appropriate (sadly) as that could provide a lower mountain lift (more resistant to wind hold perhaps) able to access lower mountain blues. That would need to go up to Taxi, as far to looker's left as possible to access the most terrain or involve a few cuts through some trails to access looker's left trails and provide access directly to the Jet cutoff. This would also serve as a great terrain park lift (keeping park kids off the main mountain lifts, woo hoo) and also provide access to Tramside via Taxi. This seems much more likely than hacking a lift up to Lower Goat.

For the record, I know nothing and that is only my commentary on the rumor and its pros/cons.

Regardless of what happens, it is amazing the amount of work they are putting into the entire resort in all aspects. It is nice to see that amongst the larger 4 season resort items that upgrades to the skiing infrastructure are being made significantly if any of these three rumors pan out. Seems like a replacement of the Bonnie and a rebuild of the Jet are the most certain per JPTracker's prior reports.


----------



## TheBEast (Jul 20, 2010)

Wow, interesting.....


----------



## Harvey (Jul 23, 2010)

Riv - can you (or anybody) explain to me why fixed grips are less prone to windhold? Does the actual "solid" connection help it sway less?

I know that gondola's go on windhold easily because they have so much surface area.


----------



## billski (Jul 23, 2010)

harvey44 said:


> Riv - can you (or anybody) explain to me why fixed grips are less prone to windhold? Does the actual "solid" connection help it sway less?
> 
> I know that gondola's go on windhold easily because they have so much surface area.



It's my understanding that a large part of it is because newer lifts are higher off the ground/less protected and also run at a higher speed.


----------



## threecy (Jul 23, 2010)

billski said:


> It's my understanding that a large part of it is because newer lifts...and also run at a higher speed.



For example, think about when you drive on a gusty day.  Driving 20 MPH on a windy day results in very little swaying/etc.  Driving 60 MPH, on the results in some significant swaying.  Mind you, lifts aren't operating anywhere near that speed, however the difference between 400 FPM and 1100 FPM is significant.


----------



## skiadikt (Jul 23, 2010)

maybe it has to do with how the chairs are "clamped" to the cable. if speed was the reason, you'd think they could just run the detachables slower on windy days instead of shutting them down. at k, on windy days the snowden quad (an old fixed grip) can sometimes be the only chair running. though i think the upper half is also pretty wind protected.


----------



## speden (Jul 23, 2010)

I think a fixed grip has a higher density of chairs on the cable than a detached, since less spacing is needed between chairs.  More chairs equals more weight, so perhaps the cable would be less likely to get pulled off the track with more weight on it.


----------



## NYDrew (Jul 23, 2010)

I think the blue chair is just fine as a triple.  The red chair could use an upgrade, but I think in the form of a high speed.  Most red terrain can be accessed from the blue if wind conditions dictate.

What they need to work on is a better way to transition between stateside and tramside.  Coming into stateside you have two options...navagating cruddy hardpack "glade?" or passing through the red base area at warp speed.  Coming back I generally warpspeed on the catwalk to take that other hard pack "glade?" and once again scratch my butt through the villiage area.  

They also need to consider that disaster lift over on tram side if they want to become a real "resort."  Something needs to be done about the brutal conditions on it.  As far as the tram...I don't like the tram...why do I want to sardine inside of a metal box and not even have a place to sit?


----------



## threecy (Jul 23, 2010)

skiadikt said:


> maybe it has to do with how the chairs are "clamped" to the cable. if speed was the reason, you'd think they could just run the detachables slower on windy days instead of shutting them down.



Areas already do this (run the detachables at slower speeds on windy days).  I haven't any experience running a detachable lift, but I suspect there may be a limit on how slow they can go (non-aux).

The issue with wind is not chair grips - a windy day in New England isn't going to cause chairs to fall off the cable.  The issue is chairs (and communication lines) swinging in the wind - ie causing a derailment off a sheavetrain.


----------



## JPTracker (Jul 23, 2010)

A problem detachables do have is icing. If the cable starts icing up then the chairs may grip on top of the ice causing them to slide. I've been at Jay at least on one occasion where the Flyer was shut down due to icing and the Bonnie was still running.


----------



## 4aprice (Jul 23, 2010)

JPTracker said:


> A problem detachables do have is icing. If the cable starts icing up then the chairs may grip on top of the ice causing them to slide. I've been at Jay at least on one occasion where the Flyer was shut down due to icing and the Bonnie was still running.



They shut down the HSQs for icing down here in PA.  (a much more common occurance down here - I hope)   

Alex

Lake Hopatcong, NJ


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 17, 2010)

Update to lift rumors:

Hiked the mountain today and talked to two different workers. The current favorite is that a new six pack will follow the line of the old Bonnie double up Power Line to Saint Georges Prayer. The Bonnie was moved from there because it was very prone to wind hold. The current thought is that because the six pack chairs weigh a lot more the the old double chairs they will be a lot less prone to wind holds. Also it will give easier access to the other side of the mountain. Down side is it will be a hike over to Can AM, Vertigo and Upper Quai. Noticeable on my hike were numerous survey stake along Saint Georges Prayer and Power Line which gives some backing for this rumor.

Not part of the rumor but my guess is that the replacement for the T bar can now use the lift line. They can use the old Jet Triple and have it exit where liftline meets Can Am. This would just be an easy ski down to the terrain park from here, or to Taxi to get to Tram Side.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 17, 2010)

I like your thinking JPTracker regarding possible repositioning of the Jet to the Can Am/Liftline intersection. High enough to get folks to the lower mountain trails under Taxi and also back to Tramside. They would need to cut some trail through the lower part of Deliverance though if they wanted to make full use of that lower mountain trail system. Are they going to replace the Bonnie and the Jet this season?

Interesting regarding going up Power Line and up St George's Prayer. I am fine with a small hike up to Vertigo and River Quai. I would be more concerned with easier access to Tramside. That aspect of the Bonnie is often over looked by many skiers with the high speed lifts are on hold. From a ski area logistics perspective, it seems like a no brainer though.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 17, 2010)

Just took a Tram ride after dinner and talked to a couple of the lifties. The six pack to Saint Georges Prayer is pretty sure thing for next year but they will be putting some wind gauges up there  this winter to verify their assumptions.


----------



## jerryg (Sep 17, 2010)

One of the issues is that the grips and obviously terminals are much much more complex and the mechanical components of the terminals can get damaged if/when a swinging carrier comes off the line.

I would guess that while on the line, the possibility of a haul rope derailing would be the same with a FG as with a HS, but derailment could happen if there is a mechanical breakage or failure when the carrier comes into the terminal.

When a mountain is about to close a lift because of really high winds and they are just running it to get everyone off, you'll notice that often times the operator will slow the line down even more as each carrier approached the terminal.

This is how it was explained to me.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 18, 2010)

What is the benefit of moving the 6 pack over to Powerline?  Less wind?  Just seems odd that they would intentionally have a terminus at a point that would require a hike to access those trails.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 18, 2010)

deadheadskier said:


> What is the benefit of moving the 6 pack over to Powerline?  Less wind?  Just seems odd that they would intentionally have a terminus at a point that would require a hike to access those trails.


The lift can angle up St George's Prayer and end high up on the hill than the Bonnie (perhaps as high as the Freezer?). It basically allows skiers to access more terrain on both sides of the mountain whereas currently you need to hike up Goat to access anything on the other side of Goat from the Bonnie. There would only be a slight up hill to the Can Am area. Carrying enough speed and skating would be fine. Check out a Google Maps satellite. The additional trail accessibility is considerable.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 18, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> The lift can angle up St George's Prayer and end high up on the hill than the Bonnie (perhaps as high as the Freezer?). It basically allows skiers to access more terrain on both sides of the mountain whereas currently you need to hike up Goat to access anything on the other side of Goat from the Bonnie. There would only be a slight up hill to the Can Am area. Carrying enough speed and skating would be fine. Check out a Google Maps satellite. The additional trail accessibility is considerable.



Truth.  The terminus of the old Bonnie was sufficiently uphill that you could easily carry enough speed with minimal skating (especially b/c the wind is usually at your back) to get to Upper Quai, Can Am and Vertigo.  Adding direct access to the Goat side and the trails/glades down into West Bowl more than makes up for any modest inconvenience.  

I wonder whether they can employ some fencing at the top of the lift to cut down on the wind somewhat.  Prevailing winds should blow pretty much straight down the lift line, no?

Either way, it will be great to see the old lift line used again.  I loved that old Bonnie double and how it would run pretty low to the ground about 3/4 of the way up.  In good snow years, you'd be only 5-6 feet off the surface and it wasn't a trail in those days so I must sheepishly admit that I jumped a time or two.  

Anyway, presumably Powerline will be retained as a trail, which will make it quite the stage for watching good skiers down below with its consistent pitch and double fall line.  

Finally, to riverCoil's point about cutting through Deliverance to take full advantage of the new lower mtn lift position, wouldn't you want people to get all the way over the Angel's Wiggle too?  If so, might some intrustion into lower Canyonland be necessary as well?  Or am I confused?


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 18, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Finally, to riverCoil's point about cutting through Deliverance to take full advantage of the new lower mtn lift position, wouldn't you want people to get all the way over the Angel's Wiggle too?  If so, might some intrustion into lower Canyonland be necessary as well?  Or am I confused?


Canyonland dumps out where Milk Run crosses Taxi and intersects Wiggle, so perhaps there would need to be some cutting through Canyonland too. I am just thinking ideal situation. I imagine that they would want a lower mountain lift to be able to serve the lower mountain trails so that Stateside has a lower mountain lift that can run in the wind like the Metro tramside. This seems especially important for folks that are already on mountain and have committed to their stay. A lift that could allow you to ski lower Stateside from Wiggle to Lower Can Am would certainly be a fun option on a wind hold powder day. Versus now, Metro Quad, T-Bar, Condo Double? Not so much fun.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 19, 2010)

Photo of Lower Can Am:







Took a hike this morning and took this photo from the bottom of the Bonnie. I have circled the area where I think the lift should terminate. Then to the right I have drawn the trail first suggested by rivercOil. I like the idea of this trail because it would give you a lot of options to ski when upper mountain lifts are on wind hold.


----------



## dalecaluori (Sep 19, 2010)

I really don't like the idea of that lift because it would pretty much destroy Deliverance. Deliverance is one of the most awesome trails in the East and now we're gonna destroy it so we can have a "Taxi" type crossover run. I think that's a horrible idea!

I've read this entire thread and it's surprising to me that there isn't more opposition against putting a 6-pack in at Jay???

I can understand running a lift up Powerline, but a 6-pack?? c'mon that's a bad idea!

The mountains in the East aren't big enough to support 6-packs, you need a lot of acres and a LOT of terrain for it to make sense. Imagine how a six-pack will destroy the aesthetics of Jay Peak. You have the beautiful Peak with the Tram Haus (I can't think of any ski hill that looks better IMO), and now right at the bottom of The Face there will be a huge terminal for a six-passenger chair. That will look ugly, believe me. 

If they're planning on replacing the Bonnie, I agree with rerouting the lift to go on Powerline, but at most it should be a High Speed Quad, but better yet, *I think it should simply be a new fixed grip quad*, this is the best solution against wind. And with the top terminal under The Face, The Flyer trails will be accessible when it is on hold.

I don't need detachable chairs! I need chairs that get me to the top in all weather conditions! I respect Smuggs a lot for being true to their awesome terrain and keeping the place looking like a mountain rather than an amusement park. Jay should consider the same before installing these monster lifts.

That's my 2 cents.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 19, 2010)

My first reply may have sounded a bit more insider (factual) than it actually was (opinion). So just to clarify, I have no knowledge that a trail would be cut connecting a mid-mountain lift to Wiggle. That was just my thought as it would be an ideal lower mountain lift that could be open during high winds and serve some of Jay's more interesting lower mountain terrain. JPTracker posted a few times, with some rumor authority, that the Jet would be relocated as a cross over lift to eliminate the need for the T-bar. If it goes to where JPTracker suggests, I think hacking off the lower end of Deliverance would be worth having a few good lower mountain options when the wind howls.

Regarding the six pack... I really see no different between a HSQ and a Six Pack. I don't know how you can reasonably be for a quad but not a six. Its a high speed lift in either case. And I don't know how a Six would destroy Jay's character in any way. It already has two high speed lifts including Vermont's only tram and only one of two trams in the northeast. They ain't planning to run a Six up the Sunnyside at MRG or anything. Ending terminal for Ragged's Six doesn't seem any bigger than that for a HSQ. It would be just like the Freezer.

I think an argument that could be made is the potential for wind hold. The Bonnie and Jet can almost always run whereas the Freezer goes off line a lot. If the Bonnie Six got taken out due to wind as often as the Flyer, that would limit all mountain traffic to just the Jet. That would be disastrous. 

The Six does make sense from a people moving perspective. Getting the end of the lift higher up on the high will spread more skiers out over the mountain. Tramside has plenty of elbow room even with the Flyer and Tram. So more people would go from the Bonnie to Tramside than currently do. Additionally, I don't really see any problem with elbow room on the trails coming down from the Bonnie. Considering how much real estate Jay has, the mountain really spreads people out even when all lifts are full. I don't see traffic and density on the trail as being a problem.

The increased speed of getting from the Stateside lot to any trail on the mountain with a high speed lift would be nice. Let's face it, the Bonnie as a Fixed Grip is a slow ride on a cold day. Extend that lift another couple hundred vert at the same fixed grip speed, and it becomes even longer. 

Personally, I am no fan of high speed lifts. But they serve their purposes sometimes. If Jay thinks they can put a high speed lift in without suffering from any more wind holds than a Fixed Grip, then its a good idea (Quad or Six, I could care less). If there is even a slight increase of wind holds due to a high speed lift, it would be a disastrous idea which would effectively shut down all lifts but the Jet in a high wind storm (excepting those storms in which even the Jet can't run, but that usually by default means the Bonnie can not run either).


----------



## dalecaluori (Sep 19, 2010)

I'll admit it, I just don't like six packs. I find they're ugly. They are also difficult to load fully which reduces their efficiency. IMO, Quads are the workhorse of the industry and the way to go. A fixed grip in Jay's case.



riverc0il said:


> I think an argument that could be made is the potential for wind hold. The Bonnie and Jet can almost always run whereas the Freezer goes off line a lot. If the Bonnie Six got taken out due to wind as often as the Flyer, that would limit all mountain traffic to just the Jet. That would be disastrous.



That's exactly my point, the wind isn't going to disappear just because Jay is becoming a more classy resort. I hate showing up at the mountain to find out only "lower mtn" lifts are running, which happened about 4-5 times to me last year. I'm against anything that will cause more wind holds. I'd rather freeze my ass off on a fixed grip chair for a couple extra minutes than have the lifts shut down for the day. 



> The increased speed of getting from the Stateside lot to any trail on the mountain with a high speed lift would be nice. Let's face it, the Bonnie as a Fixed Grip is a slow ride on a cold day. Extend that lift another couple hundred vert at the same fixed grip speed, and it becomes even longer.



Yes, it may be longer, but it's not necessarily colder. Nothing's worse than riding the Flyer in a cold January wind! So with another high speed lift, there will now be two ways up the mountain to freeze ones arse off. It's a bad idea plain and simple. Jay is too wind exposed and too cold to rely solely on High Speed Lifts. Have they not learned anything from the Flyer? I highly doubt that lift would be there had they known it was going to be so cold. And yes, there will be more wind holds. Get to know the Racoon Run because on those snowy (windy) powder days everyone will be lined up on the Village chair:-?



> If there is even a slight increase of wind holds due to a high speed lift, it would be a disastrous idea which would effectively shut down all lifts but the Jet in a high wind storm (excepting those storms in which even the Jet can't run, but that usually by default means the Bonnie can not run either).



Anyhow, I think we're on the same page. No more wind holds!

I hope someone at Jay is seeing this.


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 19, 2010)

I am not sure the Freezer effect would impact a Bonnie replacement. However, there is a strong blast that hits you on the current Bonnie as you crest the ridge. Powerline seems more protected though. And at worst, the running distance between the Powerline/Northway intersection and the top of St Georges Prayer is only half the distance of Goat to Alligator Alley coming over the ridge on the Freezer. I can't imagine it being as bad, but who knows.

Wind hold is really the big issue is wind hold and I'd love to hear the official reasoning behind a high speed replacement and how a six pack will fair in Jay's wind, especially in comparison to the Bonnie and the Freezer.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 19, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> I am not sure the Freezer effect would impact a Bonnie replacement. However, there is a strong blast that hits you on the current Bonnie as you crest the ridge. Powerline seems more protected though. And at worst, the running distance between the Powerline/Northway intersection and the top of St Georges Prayer is only half the distance of Goat to Alligator Alley coming over the ridge on the Freezer. I can't imagine it being as bad, but who knows.
> 
> Wind hold is really the big issue is wind hold and I'd love to hear the official reasoning behind a high speed replacement and how a six pack will fair in Jay's wind, especially in comparison to the Bonnie and the Freezer.



When you come up over the ridge on the Bonnie the wind may be strong but it is usually blowing down the chair. When you move the chair over to power line the wind now hits the chair at an angle. A chair lift can take a pretty strong head on wind but a wind from the side will start the chairs swinging which will shut down the lift. So the difference between Saint Georges Prayer and the current location may not be as much the wind speed but the angle of the wind. I have rode the Freezer many times with a strong head on wind but when the wind starts to blow from the side and the chairs start to swing you know that it will be shut down soon.


----------



## Steve@jpr (Sep 20, 2010)

*Mill's grist.*

Sorry about not chiming in sooner on this.  We're not 100% sure on any of this so I'll give you a snapshot of where we are (philosophically) right now with it.  Part of the reason we haven't been talking in public about this was to try and avoid the West Bowling of information as we've done in the past (having it on the trail map as coming soon for a decade sort of thing).  As things come together in a more solid fashion, we'll let you know.  For now though..

The existing Bonnie is scheduled to be replaced for next season.  Current thinking is that the new lift might be placed on the Power Line trail with the top terminal on or about the top of St. George's-this is very similar to the old alignment of the original Bonnie Chair and would offer access to the JFK pod-insert 'If it aint broke, why'd you fix it' axiom here.  To that end, we're installing an anemometer this fall to measure wind at that unload section to compare it to winds we've measured (ranging from Wow to Good Lord) along the Flyer line and the Tram Summit to make sure that if the new lift does go to St. George's then it will not be (as) affected by winds that tend to shut down the Flyer.

In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.

Side note-a number of bloggers and members of the social-media elite have asked why detachable chairs are more susceptible to wind than fixed-grips.  It has to do with the need for the chair to be properly and well aligned with the terminal entry (not swinging) and this causes the lift to shut down (I'm oversimplifying here).

Current thinking also has us retrofitting the existing Bonnie Quad (we're not very good at throwing things away anyway) and used to replace the Jet Triple.  Again uphill capacity would be designed and tweaked to sync with that of the terrain capacity so stay tuned here.  The Jet Triple could then be re-installed to serve a lower-mountain pod that could include the terrain park (+1 to Riv here) and other pieces of intermediate terrain as well as access back to Tram Base from Stateside.

T-Bar his history-but we may end up with another conveyor lift to serve some beginner terrain and the kids area at the base of Stateside.

Sufficiently ambiguous?  Sorry if I am but this stuff isn't near stone yet.  As always, we'll try to make the best, most informed decision we can.  Feel free to post or send (swright@jaypeakresort.com) comments and we'll consider them.  Hope you're all well and looking forward to getting rolling soon.

Best

steve


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 20, 2010)

Steve@jpr said:


> Sorry about not chiming in sooner on this.  We're not 100% sure on any of this so I'll give you a snapshot of where we are (philosophically) right now with it.  Part of the reason we haven't been talking in public about this was to try and avoid the West Bowling of information as we've done in the past (having it on the trail map as coming soon for a decade sort of thing).  As things come together in a more solid fashion, we'll let you know.  For now though..
> 
> The existing Bonnie is scheduled to be replaced for next season.  Current thinking is that the new lift might be placed on the Power Line trail with the top terminal on or about the top of St. George's-this is very similar to the old alignment of the original Bonnie Chair and would offer access to the JFK pod-insert 'If it aint broke, why'd you fix it' axiom here.  To that end, we're installing an anemometer this fall to measure wind at that unload section to compare it to winds we've measured (ranging from Wow to Good Lord) along the Flyer line and the Tram Summit to make sure that if the new lift does go to St. George's then it will not be (as) affected by winds that tend to shut down the Flyer.
> 
> ...



Note to SpinmasterK and other marketing weasels - this is how it's done.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 20, 2010)

Steve@jpr said:


> The existing Bonnie is scheduled to be replaced for next season.  Current thinking is that the new lift might be placed on the Power Line trail with the top terminal on or about the top of St. George's-this is very similar to the old alignment of the original Bonnie Chair and would offer access to the JFK pod-insert 'If it aint broke, why'd you fix it' axiom here.  To that end, we're installing an anemometer this fall to measure wind at that unload section to compare it to winds we've measured (ranging from Wow to Good Lord) along the Flyer line and the Tram Summit to make sure that if the new lift does go to St. George's then it will not be (as) affected by winds that tend to shut down the Flyer.


So if the results trend towards "Good Lord", then what is plan B?  Running a detatch up the current Bonnie line and foregoing access to the JFK pod?



> In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.


Smart.  Get the benefits of the HSS w/o the associated overcapacity issues by dialing back on the number of chairs.  Me likey.  It should be noted that this is not the best bang for the buck strategy, so if you move forward with it, Stenger and Co should get mad props.



> Current thinking also has us retrofitting the existing Bonnie Quad (we're not very good at throwing things away anyway) and used to replace the Jet Triple.  Again uphill capacity would be designed and tweaked to sync with that of the terrain capacity so stay tuned here.


Why would you go through the expense of moving the quad to Stateside if you aren't going to bump up capacity from the current 1800/hr?  Or am I just assuming things?  IOW, you could space chairs such that you bump capacity from 1800 to 2000, but not go with the full monty up to 2400.



> The Jet Triple could then be re-installed to serve a lower-mountain pod that could include the terrain park (+1 to Riv here) and other pieces of intermediate terrain as well as access back to Tram Base from Stateside.


Wicked smaht.  Props to Riv.  

In the 24th century when West Bowl finally does come on line, is it your understanding that those lifts offer the prospect of being able to run in high winds b/c they'll top out below tree line?


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 20, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Note to SpinmasterK and other marketing weasels - this is how it's done.


+1

That was anything but ambiguous! Thanks for chiming in Steve with the official not set in stone thought process. Glad to hear that you guys are testing the wind this season. I would hate to have a Freezer and a Freeze More double theme on the lifts!


----------



## riverc0il (Sep 20, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> Wicked smaht.  Props to Riv.


Nah, props to JPTracker. JPTracker put up the proposed lift relo. I just imaginarily destroyed some glades.


----------



## Tin Woodsman (Sep 21, 2010)

riverc0il said:


> +1
> 
> That was anything but ambiguous! Thanks for chiming in Steve with the official not set in stone thought process. Glad to hear that you guys are testing the wind this season. I would hate to have a Freezer and a Freeze More double theme on the lifts!


Tru dat.

Seriously though - so many business and their marketing drones are afraid to admit that they don't quite know how things are going to turn out.  It is so damn refreshing to see someone come out and say "Hey, this what we're thinking, but we don;'t have all the data yet, so we'll research it and get back to you when the plan is set in stone."  

This stands in stark contrast to the Ready, Fire, Aim/over promise/under deliver approach or the "deflect everything onto the State police" approach which seems to be the rule at K-Mart.  uke:


----------



## Steve@jpr (Sep 21, 2010)

Tin Woodsman said:


> So if the results trend towards "Good Lord", then what is plan B?  Running a detatch up the current Bonnie line and foregoing access to the JFK pod?
> (I'll put my responses in the parentheticals.  Sorry if this makes it more difficult to read. Depending on the outcome of the data, Plan B could be altering the profile of the proposed lift at the wind susceptible location, or it could be some sort of wind protection fence structure at a limited/strategic location to help mitigate.  Plan B (or is it C?) might also be a Fixed Grip-we need good/better data to analyze options.  Stay tuned for the results as we'll probably post them throughout the process.  Provided the gauge doesn't blow away.)
> 
> 
> ...


(When the moon is in its seventh hour/Jupiter aligns with Mars-Based on observations to date and general orientation versus prevailing winds, the greatest wind in the West Bowl is at the summits.  Given our need to maintain separation with The Long Trail, we are planning lift terminals below the ridgeline so we believe the WB will be, if not wind resistant, certainly manageable.  We think.  Hopefully.)


----------



## billski (Sep 21, 2010)

Steve@jpr said:


> (When the moon is in its seventh hour/Jupiter aligns with Mars-Based on observations to date and general orientation versus prevailing winds, the greatest wind in the West Bowl is at the summits.



Oh shoot, I'm all screwed up.  I planned all my ski trips for when Jupiter was in retrograde.  :dunce:


----------



## speden (Sep 21, 2010)

Can we get some heated seats on these lifts at Jay?  I haven't skied there but anyplace that has a lift nicknamed "freezer" sounds cold!


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 21, 2010)

Steve@jpr said:


> Sufficiently ambiguous?  Sorry if I am but this stuff isn't near stone yet.  As always, we'll try to make the best, most informed decision we can.  Feel free to post or send (swright@jaypeakresort.com) comments and we'll consider them.  Hope you're all well and looking forward to getting rolling soon.
> 
> Best
> 
> steve



Thanks for responding Steve, I am glad that you keep us up to date here, ambiguous or not, and that our discussions and ideas are taken seriously.

Hope to be skiing Thanksgiving weekend.


----------



## dalecaluori (Sep 21, 2010)

Steve@jpr said:


> In order to address wind and chair-swing issues that were present in the original Bonnie line (great trail access aside), we are thinking that the new lift may be a six-pack (potential apologies Dale) as the chairs are considerably heavier (and thus less susceptible to wind), there will be fewer of them (giving folks more time to load) and we will design the uphill capacity to be in harmony with that of the terrain's downhill; capacity that is.



It is true that 6-packs are very wind resistant as there is one at Mont Orford in QC (a mountain almost as windy as Jay and there are never any wind holds there), so I guess I could eventually be persuaded.

But I have to say with regards to any intermediate chairlift to access Tramside from Stateside, I would find it a real shame if any of Jay Peak's fantastic glades were destroyed in order to make "crossover" runs or any other type of trail for that matter. I would put a no touch policy on the glades for any type of chairlift installation. They are too sacred! After all, they are what makes Jay, Jay.

Thanks for your opinion Steve! It proves that you are taking input from people who use and are passionate about your product into consideration as you move forward.


----------



## JPTracker (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks to Sick Bird Rider over on the The Real Jay Peak Snow Report for prompting Steve for a response. From his blog:



> Tired of reading people's theories about what lift is going where and whether or not a fixed-grip chair is better than a detachable one, I started scouting around on the Jay Peak web site, to see if maybe, just maybe, I'd missed something. Some blog post, press release (or as they now call it, a Social Media Release) or web site update regarding lift expansion. Nothing. What I did find  was an invitation from marketing guy Steve Wright: "And we’re always open to suggestions on how we can improve.  Send them to the marketing guy at swright@jaypeakresort.com."
> 
> So yesterday, I sent Steve a question regarding the lift rumours, along with links to this blog and the thread on AlpineZone. He responded very promptly and also (coincidentally?) posted a public explanation today on AlpineZone. Good for you, Steve, and it's a good answer. The denizens of AlpineZone seemed to respond favourably. For you non-readers of forums, here is Steve's response:


----------



## billski (Sep 21, 2010)

speden said:


> Can we get some heated seats on these lifts at Jay?  I haven't skied there but anyplace that has a lift nicknamed "freezer" sounds cold!


  If you have heated seats, then you can't have air bags! :flame:


----------



## speden (Sep 21, 2010)

billski said:


> If you have heated seats, then you can't have air bags! :flame:



Air bags?  You mean the landing air bags they put under jumps to practice flips without getting hurt?  I'm not trying any flips off a jump even if there is an air bag...


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Sep 22, 2010)

JPTracker said:


> Thanks to Sick Bird Rider over on the The Real Jay Peak Snow Report for prompting Steve for a response.



Thanks JPT, I am always looking for breaking Jay news and Harvey44 alerted me to this thread. Steve from Jay seems to have his head screwed on right, although his recent blog post suggests he may be just a little twisted.


----------



## JPTracker (Oct 8, 2010)

We got a mention on Jay Peak's Web Blog

The posted Steve's response here also.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 8, 2010)

jptracker said:


> we got a mention on jay peak's web blog
> 
> the posted steve's response here also.


 
nice!


----------

