# When to Turn Back - ???



## ChileMass (May 16, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> It's kind of been touched upon so far...but for me I go for the summit *unless the weather is too dangerous* and then I suck it up and head back to the car.  It's NOT worth the risk...too many folks get in trouble by not thinking the same way...but I'll admit, it is tough to turn back :wink:



This brings up a topic I have been meaning to explore - 

With the height of hiking season upon us, can we have a discussion about guidelines for "turning around"?  When is it prudent to turn back, and when should you push on?  What climate indicators should less-experienced but still enthusiastic hikers look for, especially above treeline?  

I need some help with this myself - I have limited above treeline experience and am scheduling several trips this summer, with kids.  How can I stay safe and still max out my hike even in bad or threatening weather?


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## cbcbd (May 16, 2005)

When my gut says "Uh Oh" 

Sorry, I couldn't be more scientific about it


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## SilentCal (May 16, 2005)

When going solo it's easy to turn back. Cbcbd hit it on the head with the "UH OH" comment.   I hate to hike in pouring rain and whenever dark clouds approach,  I'm usually one of the first to start heading at least below treeline if not off the mountain.  

When hiking with my girlfriend it's also very easy.  She is exceptionally clumsy and we are on the same wavelength in terms of nasty weather.  I can't begin to tell you how many times she has fallen or banged her knee or smacked her head on the trail due to inclement conditions.

Now when hiking with a group,  that is when things can get prickly.  A turnaround point for me might not be the same for someone else.  It's better at the trailhead if everyone knows everyone else's goals for the day and leave it at that.   Best advice is to be prepared for anything and never consider turning around a wasted day.  The Mountains will always be there another time.


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## thetrailboss (May 16, 2005)

Well, if there is a chance of T-storms in the forecast, or if there is a good chance of significant rain, then I chose NOT to even drive to the Trailhead.  I know, I know, this may present me as a 'not so die hard' hiker :wink:, but I avoid problems if I can...

But sometimes I do have to head out or am leading a group and then I bring the proper gear (i.e. rain gear, etc).  If there is thunder, I take shelter or retreat.  If I get above treeline and I see black clouds on the horizon heading in my direction, I also retreat.  No chances taken...head back to the trees and home.  The mountain will be there tomorrow to take.  

In 2001 I was hiking the Kinsmans and got a late start.  Broke tree line (well, came close to the summit that is and I say that because the trees just turn to scrub up there :wink only to hear thunder and see clouds rolling in...so I headed back down and found a good place to pull over in the trees and camp out.  The rain came, I had lunch, heard some more thunder, and within a few minutes it passed (phew).  I once again pressed for the summit after about a 10-min wait to be sure he storm had passed and all was clear.  Made the summit and then hit the next Kinsman (south I believe).  When I saw the view across to the Franconia Ridge, I was relieved that I was NOT up there when the small T-Storm passed through...could have been really high on the ridge in the middle of that storm with no real cover. 

In 2000 I put the brakes on a group hike for my B-day to the summit of Washington when again, we broke treeline to see an impending cold front.  Looking at about 2 miles of open talus scrambling to the summit, I consulted with the meterological major in the group.  

"Not looking so good," he said.  "It's coming in fast."  

I argued that we should go back to the trees and eat lunch.  

"It's only two miles to the summit.  We can be there real quick...maybe like 20 minutes," said a less experienced friend of mine in the group.  :roll:  I vetoed that in a hurry and we waited the rain out...set us back an hour or so, but I'm here to talk about it (it rained and thundered a little bit).   

So the moral of the story is that I have pulled the "retreat" lever a couple times and have not regretted it.


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## blacknblue (May 16, 2005)

There are a couple of factors that make me not want to be above treeline: darkness, lightning, and whiteout (falling or blowing snow).  Those are what you want to avoid.
Darkness is the easiest to foresee, obviously, and it should be easy enough to avoid being stuck on the trail when darkness settles.  Whiteouts, too, are usually fairly easy to predict.  However, I have raced across Bondcliff with a squall blowing in (and darkness, too).
The tricky one is lightning.  Thunderstorms can blow in quick and if it has been rainy/foggy all day anyway, it can be difficult to see them coming.  My brother and I were doing Franconia Ridge two summers ago.  It was socked in above 3000' all day, with t-storms in the forecast.  We took a long time on Little Haystack (last path off the ridge) to decide whether or not to break for Lafayette.  Wanting to do the whole Pemi Loop, we went for it, and we didn't hear a rumble of thunder until we were well onto Garfield Ridge.
You want to be very sure to know how far you have to go before adequate shelter, how fast you are traveling, and how fast the weather could turn to crap.  Then you can make an educated decision.
It's harder when you are doing a loop b/c you have to press on to finish your hike.  If you're doing an up-and-down dayhike then it's easier to bail out (psychologically).  I've bailed on Washington dayhikes 4 times for various reasons.  My brother and I once bailed on a Lafayette dayhike when we were 200 feet from the summit.  It was gut-wrenching, but lowering storm clouds convinced us to skeedaddle back down before the impending whiteout (it was also 15 below in December).
Living in Colorado for a few summers, the lightning storms here are incredible.  There's probably a few summits I didn't make due to conservative turn-around decisions, but... at least I haven't had any real close calls either.


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## JimG. (May 16, 2005)

blacknblue said:
			
		

> Living in Colorado for a few summers, the lightning storms here are incredible.  There's probably a few summits I didn't make due to conservative turn-around decisions, but... at least I haven't had any real close calls either.



Incredible is an understatement! Spent a vacation fly-fishing in CO, hired a guide to hike up to Piney Creek just outside of Vail. Didn't start fishing until we had hiked 5 or so miles upstream. 

Fishing was so good I didn't see the storm clouds approaching, was blissfully unaware of conditions ("Hey Dave, it's getting cloudy! :dunce: ") until my guide Dave told me to get as low to the ground as possible. It wasn't until I realized that the hair on my neck was standing up and that a low pitched buzz was emanating from nearby rocks that I got scared.

The lightening bolt came down about 100 yards away; split a mature aspen tree cleanly in half. Thunder was so loud my ears were buzzing for 2 days after. Good thing it hadn't rained yet or we could have been cooked anyway.

From that time onward, I don't play around with thunderstorms.


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## MichaelJ (May 16, 2005)

I hate to say it, but I think the way to really learn about turning back is to have made the wrong decision. I've done so both ways...

I turned back from one short, slippery pitch near the top of the Sabbaday Brook Trail one November. I could have just gone up the trees on the side of the trail, but I didn't know what was ahead, would anyone be around, etc, and I just decided that was enough.

I didn't turn back but went up Blueberry Ledge and over the ledges of Whiteface in a pouring, cold rain, with the full loop over Passaconaway ahead of me and nobody else around anywhere were I to slip or (my greater fear) get hypothermic.

As a result of both of these, I now really have a feel for myself and my abilities, and as such a feel for when it's _not necessary to turn around but I should_ and when _I could turn back without shame, but it's safe to challenge myself a little and go on_.


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## thetrailboss (May 16, 2005)

Well, one thing to consider with my criteria is that I often hike solo so I can't take as much of a risk.


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## riverc0il (May 16, 2005)

tstorms are the big turn back factor.  it is amazing how quickly they roll in.  my only time caught in a tstorm was doing an osceola loop.  i hit summit and it was beatiful!  i heard a boom and decided to pack up.  i kinda took my time about it though figuring it was a ways off in the distance.  just when i was getting ready to start heading down the trail, it started pouring and i saw a flash.  yikes!  i booked it down the trail and got a few hundred feet below treeline and then BOOM!!!  not really a close call or anything, but still way too close for comfort.

one often overlooked turn around point is fatigue.  one must always keep in my every step forward is one more step backward and then some as you keep going.  my g/f and i decided to skip out on the summit of eisenhower last july 4th when trying to get a view of the MWH fireworks.  we were within a few hundred feet of the summit and just shy of treeline, but both of us felt unusally tired due to hiking the day before.

wind is a factor that turned my around on the rock pile.  last year i went up nelson crag trail.  when i hit trail line, i was virtually blown over.  i crawled up to a cairn and took some pictures.  i was in awe of the wind.  it was likely a more intense and fun experience being in that wind at tree line for 30 minutes than making a summit would have been.  just amazing what 70mph+ feels like up there.

essentially, if you're not feeling comfortable about something, it's time to consider turning around.  though there's a difference between irrational fear or uncomfortability and threat of injury, but everyone has a different line they can push.


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## Jaytrek57 (May 17, 2005)

While I agree "darkness" is an indicator to some to turn around, I would make a case that hiking at night, and yes, above treeline is pretty cool stuff, esp. in summer.

First, you will be amazed how well your eyes adapt and your ability to follow the trail. 

Second, less crowded. :wink: 

I turn around simply when it is not fun anymore. T-storms and all the ones previously listed, are not fun.


> one must always keep in my every step forward is one more step backward and then some as you keep going.


Not true. Sometimes, pushing forward just makes the most sense logistically.


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## riverc0il (May 17, 2005)

> Not true. Sometimes, pushing forward just makes the most sense logistically.


well, if you're doing a loop hike and past the 50% point or on the way down, pushing forward may be the best thing.


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## smitty77 (May 17, 2005)

thetrailboss said:
			
		

> "It's only two miles to the summit.  We can be there real quick...maybe like 20 minutes," said a less experienced friend of mine in the group.  :roll:


It's reasoning like this that gets hikers into trouble.  In bad weather, double your time estimates for covering X miles.  Good job squashing this idea.

It all depends on who I'm with.  Max and I have hiked through some miserable conditions.  On a 4-day trip we encountered a torrential thunderstorm with hail when coming off the bonds.  You just press on and try to find shelter and hope you can dry your stuff out.  If I'm hiking with my wife and/or son, I'll turn around a lot sooner.  The "stop when you're no longer having fun" motto is the rule here.  Believe it or not, most people don't see the fun in slogging through the rain.  I personally don't mind it.

I won't even address hiking during a thunderstorm.  Avoid it if you can, and find cover quickly if you can't.

Stay safe.
Smitty


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## Charlie Schuessler (May 17, 2005)

I usually hike with my wife and when one of us is not "feeling good" we take a break and make decision...I do not believe we've made a wrong decision yet...Several times we’ve hiked with others, and the outline above is explained before we go…Safety before vanity...


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## blacknblue (May 17, 2005)

Jaytrek57 said:
			
		

> While I agree "darkness" is an indicator to some to turn around, I would make a case that hiking at night, and yes, above treeline is pretty cool stuff, esp. in summer.


Absolutely, I agree.  I love night hikes--summer or winter.  I just included darkness as a factor b/c it certainly makes route-finding a lot more dificult.  Unless I know the trail well, or am purposely hiking after dark, I try to get at least to a well-marked portion of the trail before dark.
But you're right; a full-moon hike above treeline is fantastic!


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## Mike P. (May 17, 2005)

Many different levels depending on your experience (usually gained from making wrong decisions or delays in making right decisions)  gear, familiarilty of surroundings, who you are with & are they having fun.  In my case, I'll add ease of getting there again if you do turn back although that is a non-issue if we are talking live & limb safety Vs. a slog in the rain.

had it been raining & no view to be had from the top of Zugspitze, I'd still have climbed it, I would have needed to re-trace my steps instead of descedning the trail I did or take the tram down though.

I do plan a few hikes that start after 3:00 PM including one up either Monadnock or Bear in summer that starts closer to 7:00 with plan to see setting sun & descend part of the peak with headlamps.  These are also two places I've been to 12X or more.

While I prefer hiking on clear days with great views, my schedule does not permit me to cancel on a rainy day & go back next weekend when it's nice  (That's why I own G-Tex)  you also get IMO a better appreciation of summit weather (good & bad)  when the wind is push 50+ & it's raining or snowing

T-storms on exposed peaks should be avoided, prefer not being out there at all but if I think I can get close to car by T- off time, I'd go or maybe pick shorter peak that took less time.  As far as the loop question if more than 50% beyond exposed part of loop more time based than mileage as IMO I could make better time gaining 100 feet on Lincoln & then back over Little Haystack then to trees than going up Lafayatte & then down to trees on Greenleaf trail.  I'm also more confident in case of a near white-out of my ability to get off Little Haystack then I am with getting off Lafayette. 

White out, bad.  I've seen some people show me pictures where visibility in picture was 20 - 40 feet, while not good, that's not a white-out, again I don't want to be out in it but on a few peaks I know well, I'd be tempted to hike on a day with expected bad visibility.

I once for a friend defined theses terms but there is more than good & bad weather.

Horrific, brutal, bad, poor, less than fair, mediocre, fair, okay, pretty good, good, great, pristine.  Few days outside of fall & winter ever qualify as Horrific or pristine, think 100 MPH+ & white out, pristine cobalt blue skies that cheaper camera's have trouble with capturing true colors

I'll brave most weather but always thought in NH I'd never tell a tale that had a phrase like, "we had to crawl the last 200 yards to the summit, if we stood we were knocked over by the wind"  I don't mind leaning into it or even staying still when it gust but if you can't stand, IMO it's time to head down.


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## madman (May 17, 2005)

Have to say its that UH-OH feeling Sometimes you just know. But that comes from experence.I hike with the same guy all the time {25yrs]we have a pretty good system, if one wants to turn around we will.  We both like to go for it so you have to turn if one wants to. If we are with others we go together reguardless of the others desision. Lucky it hasnt happend often.IT IS ALLWAYS BETTER TO REGRET GOING DOWN THAN TO REGRET GOING UP


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## cbcbd (May 17, 2005)

Mike P. said:
			
		

> While I prefer hiking on clear days with great views, my schedule does not permit me to cancel on a rainy day & go back next weekend when it's nice  (That's why I own G-Tex)  you also get IMO a better appreciation of summit weather (good & bad)  when the wind is push 50+ & it's raining or snowing


Also being from a place sort of far away from the big attractive mountains I understand this part. For a trip to the Whites I make sure I have a full weekend empty and that my program is a priority on my list. I check weather forecasts up to the day of and, unless it's in the extremes, I will go out. 

I for one love a good hike in the pouring rain. Experience and the right gear makes me ready for certain conditions and so I can safely say at this point that I am pretty confident in my inner "Uh Oh" meter...
...but, I think that because I get less chances out there, sometimes I might push myself just over the brink of comfort - but what a rush that is sometimes 

ps - I never mess with T-storms. It's something you have no control over even if you are the most skilled , most in shape, or most equipped


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## Mike P. (May 18, 2005)

Uh-oh feeling is good & as madman mentioned it is better to regret going down over regretting going up.  Returning home is not optional, the summit is

I recall a Liberty trip one winter where views were poor, made it to teh top but on way down, it cleared, thought about going back up (I was near campsites) but i opted out of trudging through the snow again.


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## catskills (May 20, 2005)

Hypothermia and lightening should be avoided.  More people killed by lightening than Tornadoes.  So if you see a Tornado coming you take cover but Tstorm maybe yes maybe no. As for hypothermia it is important to note that the rate of heat loss via conduction is increased five-fold in wet clothes.  Trying to keep the right body temperature when wet in high winds is extremely difficult.  Hypothermia is very common above 32° Fahrehheit when wet.  

The progression of hypothermia leads to predictable physiologic responses, which roughly correspond to different body temperatures. Although not invariable, the signs and symptoms are as follows:

95 to 98.6° Fahrenheit (35 to 37° Celsius). Sensation of cold; shivering; increased heart rate; urge to urinate; slight incoordination in hand movements; increased respiratory rate; increased reflexes (leg jerk when the knee is tapped); red face.

90 to 95° Fahrenheit (32.2 to 35° Celsius). Increased muscular incoordination; stumbling gait; decreased or absent shivering; weakness; apathy, drowsiness, and/or confusion; slurred speech.

85 to 90° Fahrenheit (29.4 to 32.2° Celsius). Loss of shivering; confusion progressing to coma; inability to walk or follow commands; paradoxical undressing (inappropriate behavior); complaints of loss of vision; decreased respiratory rate; decreased reflexes.

Below 85° Fahrenheit (29.4° Celsius). Rigid muscles; decreased blood pressure, heart rate, and respirations; dilated pupils; appearance of death.


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## NH_Mtn_Hiker (May 20, 2005)

> ..,IT IS ALLWAYS BETTER TO REGRET GOING DOWN THAN TO REGRET GOING UP


ABSOLUTELY!

As for the dangers of lightning, I've hiked in thunder storms several times and the only time I've ever been struck by lightning was about 15 years ago in the basement of my parents house. 

And while hiking in the rain can still be enjoyable, camping in the rain s#cks.


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## Mike P. (May 20, 2005)

I've only camped a few times but I recall two rainy days, I'd much rather hike in the rain than ever camp in it again.


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