# New boot "stance" question



## BenedictGomez (Nov 29, 2012)

I have a question on stance in new boots that I'm having a tough time finding an answer for online.

In my (very) old boots I could pretty much stand perfectly upright in them, just like gym sneakers or shoes, even when they were in ski mode and not walk mode.  These were Salomon Evolution 9's.

In a new pair of Dolomite boots that feel like they fit perfectly, I dont stand upright, but pitched a bit forward with knees slightly bent.  It's not a dramatic bend like a sitting down golf stance, but a clear bend that is almost like I'm already skiing just by standing in the boots.  

My question is, is that proper of not? 


 I mean, I can see how that would help bring the hands forward, but I dont want to be on something clearly wrong if it is.  It's a dramatic change in "resting stance" or what you might call "lift line stance" from my Salomons just by standing in the boots, but for all I know, maybe the perfectly upright nature of the Salomon's was wrong.  It's funny, I've skied most of my life and have never thought about crap like this before! :-(


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## deadheadskier (Nov 29, 2012)

Can't answer your question, just responding because I was unaware that Dolomite is now back in production as a new boot option in the US market.  I thought they had gone out of business. Prior to my current boot I had a pair of Dolomites that I absolutely loved.  They had a 5th buckle that really wrapped the ankle and locked the heel in like no other boot I've ever owned.


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## Nick (Nov 30, 2012)

I've always found my boots to have a slight forward stance. My quads have actually felt sore before from the constant slight bend. I'm pretty sure that is how's it is supposed to be. My wife (a beginner) was just fitted with vacuum boots at suburban ski in Connecticut and they actually make you assume the stance prior to vacuum fitting the boots.

Maybe we can get Skidmarks to chime in here with some info!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cheese (Nov 30, 2012)

Pitched a bit forward is a good thing.  Regardless of new shaped ski technology the need to flex the ski with body movement still exists.  It's at turn start and the very beginning of this movement forward to flex the ski that needs a little help from the forward lean of the boot. 

 Basically the balance needs to be shifted from neutral to forward to flex the ski.  If the boot was at a 90* angle to the ski the lean required to shift weight would most likely need to be initiated from above the waist to get enough leverage to flex the ski.  Bending at the waist or "hunching" is not good.  Instead, the forward lean of the boot gives the skier a head start so that simply straightening the knee causes a shift in weight forward.  Once the lean has been initiated a skier can then bend the knee to put additional pressure on the tip of the ski and therefore flex the ski to a shorter radius turn.

Might not be the best description but I hope it helps.


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## wa-loaf (Nov 30, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have a question on stance in new boots that I'm having a tough time finding an answer for online.
> 
> In my (very) old boots I could pretty much stand perfectly upright in them, just like gym sneakers or shoes, even when they were in ski mode and not walk mode.  These were Salomon Evolution 9's.
> 
> ...



I'm not aware of any boot not having a little forward lean. but in fact boots lately are a more "upright" since shaped skis don't require as much forward pressure. I like to have my stance checked out when I get new boots with a boot fitter. Too much forward lean is as bad as not enough. If you are pitched too far forward it makes you stick your butt out and actually puts you in the backseat.


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## Nick (Nov 30, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> I'm not aware of any boot not having a little forward lean. but in fact boots lately are a more "upright" since shaped skis don't require as much forward pressure. I like to have my stance checked out when I get new boots with a boot fitter. Too much forward lean is as bad as not enough. If you are pitched too far forward it makes you stick your butt out and actually puts you in the backseat.



Interesting, that's almost counterintuitive. 

It's my goal every year to try and prevent myself from falling into the backseat when the moguls start coming quicker.... it happens to me all the time. Argh.


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## kickstand (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm going to get new boots next weekend.  I think I might ask the guy at the shop about this.  To me, it looks like all the boots I've looked at have that slightly forward lean to them.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2012)

deadheadskier said:


> *I was unaware that Dolomite is now back in production as a new boot option in the US market.*  I thought they had gone out of business. Prior to my current boot I had a pair of Dolomites that I absolutely loved.



You are correct.  These are "new" old boots.   The long story is, I want to go to a highly-regarded bootfitter and buy top-of-the-line boots with the full custom thing done (not just the custom orthotic).  However, I currently havent the time or the money and my Salomons are shot (as in, past the thick socks with maximum tightened buckles shot).  I could have gone the replacement liners route, but my boots were very old, and these boots cost even less than the cost of a pair of replacement liners.  So that's the long story of how I wound up with Dolomite.  These "new" boots are only intended to be used for one season!  I took a shot, so to speak, because I bought them so cheap I know I would either break even or make a small profit dumping them on EBAY if they didnt work.



Cheese said:


> *Pitched a bit forward is a good thing. *
> e to flex the ski...... * Bending at the waist or "hunching" is not good*.....Might not be the best description but I hope it helps.



It is a hard thing to describe.  

The best way I can put it is that "at rest" (i.e. not in skis and just standing):

*in the old boots*, it was like I was standing perfectly straight upright, like I was barefoot.
*in the new boots*, it is like I'm standing upright, but my kneecaps are almost over my toes, probably about over the first foot buckle (i.e. my knees are bent a bit)

with the old boots I could lock my knees (not that I ever would, but I could), with the new boots I would have to lean way far forward to lock my knees (like ski jumping, though not that extreme, lol).



wa-loaf said:


> *I'm not aware of any boot not having a little forward lean*.



I just got in my old Salomon's, and I swear I'm arms to my side upright like in my tennis sneakers.  Who knows?  Maybe this was a bad thing for all those years and I didn't know.     I bought those boots in a big sporting goods shop in Canada (similar to a Sports Authority), which is probably about the worst place you could buy boots from.  I was young and naive (but got quite a deal on the exchange rate).


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## bigbog (Nov 30, 2012)

+1_wa-loaf's....

Many were designed with old, straight skis in mind..   Granted some, mostly intermediate boots, possessed less forward lean.  If you're balanced in them....hey, that's what matters, but too much forward lean for one's physical makeup will wage balance_warfare on anything tougher than "groomed carpet" beginner terrain.


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## Cheese (Nov 30, 2012)

Nick said:


> Interesting, that's almost counterintuitive.
> 
> It's my goal every year to try and prevent myself from falling into the backseat when the moguls start coming quicker.... it happens to me all the time. Argh.



Nick, Your mogul challenge might actually help illustrate need for forward lean.

Consider that the only shock absorber you have when skiing is your knees.  While sitting in your desk chair, lift your foot up and down like it's responding to changes in the terrain while skiing moguls.  Although it works just fine you'll quickly notice you're in a sitting position and therefore basically in the back seat.  Now if you work your foot/ankle into a position where you can still bend your knee like a shock absorber but keep your foot/ankle under your hips (out of the back seat) you'll notice that your shin is now at an angle.  So, being forced into the back seat while skiing moguls is often a result of not enough forward lean below the knee to flex the boot and remain neutrally balanced while those shock absorbers are compressing and extending.

Moguls are of course the extreme but you can imagine the same need for shock absorption when the goal is instead trying to keep your two ski edges firmly set in the snow while adjusting for the changing gravitational forces during a turn.

Something to think about and play with while you're stuck in an office chair. :grin:


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2012)

Cheese said:


> Nick, Your mogul challenge might actually help* illustrate need for forward lean.*



It's funny you should say that, because with these new boots on and just standing still, I feel like I'm almost in perfect mogul hitting position.  

Again, I do not know if this is good or bad from a "standing in resting position on ski boots context", but what I mean is that my hands almost feel like they want to come forward, and my knees have a bend in them - like how I would want to go at moguls.

I've also now read since last posting that Salomom boots are known for being the "most upright" among boot manufacturers.  But if what I'm feeling is actually correct, I think it will take some getting used to for hockey-stops and a few other moves.  In my Salomon boots, I was 100% responsible for creating bend in my knees, but in these Dolomites, it's like the process of knee bend is already initiated for me.


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## riverc0il (Nov 30, 2012)

On flat ground, you should be able to hang a plumb line from your knees and the line should go down to your toes. You want forward pressure on your tongue and your knees should be somewhat aligned with your toes. Straight upright or barely forward isn't doing you many favors.


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## speden (Nov 30, 2012)

Some boots have an adjustable velcro spoiler you can use to modify the forward lean.  I like a more upright stance, so I removed the spoilers from my liners.  I still have some bend in the knees when walking around, but not as much as when the spoilers were in there.


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## BenedictGomez (Nov 30, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> On flat ground, *you should be able to hang a plumb line from your knees and the line should go down to your toes.*



Well, that's about what this is, I can see my toes, so I'd say it's more like knees over 1st or 2nd pair of foot buckles.  Just feels weird.  I asked my gf how she stands in her boots and she she's perfectly upright in her Salomon boots too, so maybe it is a Salomon thing.  This is the first non-Salomon pair of boots I've worn since 1990, I guess it's going to take some getting used to.



speden said:


> Some boots have an adjustable velcro spoiler you can use to modify the forward lean.  I like a more upright stance, so I removed the spoilers from my liners.



This particular pair of boots also has a rear tongue, which is something I've never had in a boot.  It's very comfortable, but I'm not sure if I will like that or not.  I imagine that must partially increase forward lean as well.  Might just rip those rear tongues out if I dont like the feel on snow.


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## wa-loaf (Dec 1, 2012)

Nick said:


> Interesting, that's almost counterintuitive.
> 
> It's my goal every year to try and prevent myself from falling into the backseat when the moguls start coming quicker.... it happens to me all the time. Argh.



I used to be in the give me as much forward lean as I can get book. Then about 5 years ago I went to a bootfitter for the the first time, he got me a lot more upright than I would have thought was ok. Made a huge difference.


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## riverc0il (Dec 1, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I asked my gf how she stands in her boots and she she's perfectly upright in her Salomon boots too, so maybe it is a Salomon thing.


"Bend Zee Knees...Five Dollars, Please."

It isn't a Salomon thing, I wear a pair. I suspect beginner oriented boots would allow for a more up right stance perhaps. Regardless, bend those knees!


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 1, 2012)

riverc0il said:


> *It isn't a Salomon thing, I wear a pair. I suspect beginner oriented boots would allow for a more up right stance perhaps*. Regardless, bend those knees!



I'm not saying all Salomon boot models, but as a generalization their boots are apparently among the most or the most upright of the manufacturers (I got that info from a bootfitters website).  Her 4 year old Salomons are indeed a beginner or "comfort intermediate" model, but my 12 year old Salomons, while not top-of-the-line, were a decently advanced boot at that time.

Also, I've learned that the recent trend over the last several years in boot manufacturing is to go with less forward lean, in other words they're making boots generally more upright now than they have in the past.   As such, as I've been researching this topic the last few days, most of the questions, explanations, posts I've found on this subject are from people with the exact opposite problem as I'm explaining in this thread (they're in fairly upright boots, and feel awkward because they're used to a forward lean).

The reason being stated for this general ski boot industry change is that the new skis are requiring far less pressure,  muscle, etc... to initiate aggressive skiing and edge control.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 1, 2012)

I found this picture on one of the bootfitting sites that I think is very helpful to conversations like this.







In these new Dolomite boots, I am definitely in the A1 position, which is apparently "good" according to this chart.  However, in my last two pairs of Salomon boots, I was definitely closest to being in the A2 position on this chart.

The difference?  

In A2 I'm initiating virtually all leg movements, I feel my skiing is very "active" this way in terms of my need to control my body.  I've never been forced into the A1 position, but it seems you're already "set" largely into a proper ski position this way?  As I said before, I imagine it probably helps you on steep mogul terrain as you're being "helped forward" automatically, but I think it will take some getting used to.  

I also wonder what it will be like to hockey stop on a dime from MachIII in forward lean boots, as when I think of the power hockey stop, I think of it coming from a position of aggressive extension.  At the end of the day, I'm only using these for 1 season, I think I'll try them once, and see how hard of a time the forward lean gives me or not.


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## Cheese (Dec 1, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> The reason being stated for this general ski boot industry change is that the new skis are requiring far less pressure,  muscle, etc... to initiate aggressive skiing and edge control.



Oh really?  Did they happen to mention that FIS has changed the rules this year and racers will be demanding far more from their boots than they did last year since they're on longer, straighter skis with a much larger radius?  So, you can either believe the race community about the advantages of boot stiffness and forward lean or you can believe the boot manufacturers that are catering to the general public who all think they're "aggressive" skiers.

Honestly, from the diagram you posted I could ski in the A row or the C row without too much trouble.  If your "decently advanced boot" falls in the B row, I would never return to the shop that suggested such a boot.  But that's just me ... :beer:


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## bigbog (Dec 1, 2012)

Skeletal balance and strength were not always the goals as lots of turns were cranked..y/n?  I mean, lots of skis back in the 60s & 70s would pass as mogul skis above anything else.  Not to mention the shinbang....nothing to counteract somewhat un-straight shins back then...


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2012)

Cheese said:


> Oh really?  Did they happen to mention that FIS has changed the rules this year and racers will be demanding far more from their boots than they did last year since they're on longer, straighter skis with a much larger radius?  So, *you can either believe the race community about the advantages of boot stiffness and forward lean or you can believe the boot manufacturers that are catering to the general public who all think they're "aggressive" skiers.*



I  haven't seen anyone in this thread debating stiffness. 

 But I also dont think it's useful to compare FIS equipment with recreational ski equipment.  That's a bit like comparing the stock Toyota Camry on the highway with the Toyota Camry stock car at the Daytona 500 - radically different things.  

The point of my OP wasn't whether forward lean is good or not, it is whether I might have too much in these boots.  While it seems that I am in A1 on these boots as opposed to A2 in the old pair, if I were to intentionally lean far forward in these boots like a ski jumper, I feel like I would tip over.  My non boot expert thinking is that's probably not good/correct.

Also, if the boot manufacturers are catering to a general public that wants to think they're "aggressive skiers" like you're suggesting, wouldnt they be building more and more boot models that have the forward leaning of a serious race boot?   The trend I've been reading about in non-race boots, (i.e. boots for 99% of people) is exactly the opposite, that they seem to be building them with angle degrees more upright the last few years than they have in the past. 



Cheese said:


> Honestly, from the diagram you posted *I could ski in the A row or the C row without too much trouble.  If your "decently advanced boot" falls in the B row, I would never return to the shop that suggested such a boot. * But that's just me ...



When I look at that C row, it seems to me the skier is default placed into the backseat based on the spine angle and balance point resultant from the lean being so severe.  Not as bad as row B where there's a "reverse lean", but I wouldnt want to have to ski like the C row either.


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## wa-loaf (Dec 2, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> I  haven't seen anyone in this thread debating stiffness.
> 
> But I also dont think it's useful to compare FIS equipment with recreational ski equipment.  That's a bit like comparing the stock Toyota Camry on the highway with the Toyota Camry stock car at the Daytona 500 - radically different things.
> 
> ...



A1 and A2 are in the same forward lean. The A2 position is just when you are trying to stand up straight with the correct forward lean. It sounds like you were in the B row in your old solomons. I used to do the C row since I always just set my boots up with the max forward lean they could achieve.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 2, 2012)

wa-loaf said:


> *A1 and A2 are in the same forward lean.* The A2 position is just when you are trying to stand up straight with the correct forward lean. It sounds like you were in the B row in your old solomons. I used to do the C row since I always just set my boots up with the max forward lean they could achieve.



Correct, I could have explained it better, but there is no picture for my last few pairs of Salomons, which I would call AB, somewhere between the A picture and the B picture, but closer to the A picture.  The B1 picture looks ridiculous though, I think the artist went a a little bit overboard as I dont think it's humanly possible to ski like that!  

I've read so much about forward lean and ramp angle in the last few days, I'm amazed at how much there is to consider.  For instance, I have pretty muscular calves, which apparently act as a bit of a human body "built-in" forward lean in the boots.   I never realized how complicated this can be.


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## Cheese (Dec 3, 2012)

BenedictGomez said:


> The B1 picture looks ridiculous though, I think the artist went a a little bit overboard as I dont think it's humanly possible to ski like that!



B1 is still very common on the bunny hill.  A fairly upright boot with a very soft flex rating makes this an easy posture to fall into.  I'm sure there's an instructor or two on this board that have spent a few lessons trying to break a novice from this position.

Slight variations to B3 were sadly very common back in the 70s with a set of Jet Sticks mounted to the back of our boots.  Knees pinned together, sit back and whip the tips around.  

I understand your analogy of FIS to NASCAR but considering all the fads that have come and gone in the ski industry, I find it very helpful to take a look at what high performance skiers are using and then throttle back accordingly.  This allows a buyer to beware of gimmicks like plate bindings and rear entry boots as examples.

I too was as guilty as wa-loaf of adjusting my boots for max forward lean.  Now I have them less forward and add the extra lean dynamically while skiing.  Bottom line, I think you're really going to enjoy your new boots regardless of how awkward they are in the lift line.


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## BenedictGomez (Dec 3, 2012)

Cheese said:


> Slight variations to B3 were sadly very common back in the 70s* with a  set of Jet Sticks mounted to the back of our boots.*  Knees pinned  together, sit back and whip the tips around.



What are Jet Sticks?  I'm a bit younger, and sadly too young to have enjoyed the wild and crazy 1980s apres-ski scene.



Cheese said:


> I understand your analogy of FIS to NASCAR but *considering all the fads  that have come and gone in the ski industry, I find it very helpful to  take a look at what high performance skiers are using* and then throttle  back accordingly.  This allows a buyer to beware of gimmicks like plate  bindings and rear entry boots as examples.



From what I've been reading the last few days, this has crept into race skiing too.  While they still clearly have sizable forward lean, that supposedly it's noticeably less than ~5 years ago?  And apparently last year Lange decreased the forward lean in all of their available models.  

I do agree that gimmicks exist in sporting goods (in spades), the worst offender probably being the golf industry that attempts to convince people they need a brand new $390 driver EVERY year (which IMO hurts people's game if anything), but I dont think a reputable industry stalwart like Lange would make such a bold move as a "gimmick".  If interested, here's a few articles I've read about this phenomena, whether fad or not.

http://skiingbusiness.com/11556/uncategorized/2012-13-ski-boot-preview-lange/

http://www.footpro.com.au/index.php?dir=view&page=prod_innovationread&id=MTg=



Cheese said:


> I too was as guilty as wa-loaf of adjusting my boots for max forward  lean.  Now I have them less forward and add the extra lean dynamically  while skiing.  Bottom line,* I think you're really going to enjoy your  new boots regardless of how awkward they are in the lift line*.



I wish I shared your enthusiasm, but after several hours of research, I'm now more puzzled than when I started! lol  I guess I'll just have to see for myself to understand (or not).   I do admit that when I stand in those boots, I think to myself, _"these will be awesome for steep mogul trails"_  and "mogul trees", but I just dont see why this  substantial forward lean would help on intermediates, groomers, most diamonds,  or frankly anything less than the more challenging of the double-black  diamonds? 

So to be sure and have peace of mind, I'm going to bring these boots into the local Surefoot here in town and have them look at the angle; they told me it would only be about $20 to take a look at my stance and do a quick adjustment to the forward lean provided there isnt any major alteration or new materials needed, etc...


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 25, 2013)

So as an update, after a bunch of days on snow with these boots I'm very happy with them and their performance/comfort.  The "too much forward lean" got better after 1 or 2 uses, and disappeared altogether after perhaps day 3.  

So, I dont know if it's a question of the molded plastic getting worked in or the rear boot liner getting packed in a bit, but somehow the excess lean I was worried about disappeared very quickly.    Given the ridiculously low price I paid for new boots, this may go down as the best ski equipment bargain of my life.   They were just intended to be used for 1 year as "disposable ski boots", as I was going to pay the $$ to get something custom next season, but I may just keep them another season or two.


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## hammer (Feb 25, 2013)

On my third pair of boots...first ones were way too big, second ones (Technicas) fit pretty well but did have too much forward lean, and the ones I have now (Nordicas) are more upright but after a few seasons have a bit too much room above the instep.

Still have yet to hit the brand that gets it all right for my feet.


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## Cheese (Feb 25, 2013)

BenedictGomez said:


> So as an update, after a bunch of days on snow with these boots I'm very happy with them and their performance/comfort.  The "too much forward lean" got better after 1 or 2 uses, and disappeared altogether after perhaps day 3.
> 
> So, I dont know if it's a question of the molded plastic getting worked in or the rear boot liner getting packed in a bit, but somehow the excess lean I was worried about disappeared very quickly.    Given the ridiculously low price I paid for new boots, this may go down as the best ski equipment bargain of my life.   They were just intended to be used for 1 year as "disposable ski boots", as I was going to pay the $$ to get something custom next season, but I may just keep them another season or two.



Great news!  Comfortable feet can be the difference between a good day and bad.


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