# USSA Proposes World Cup At Killington



## mbedle (Oct 1, 2015)

Wow - that would be a good thing.
http://alpine.usskiteam.com/news/ussa-proposes-world-cup-killington

Sorry, forgot the link.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 1, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Superstar a little flat for a World Cup GS race?  The top and bottom obviously have pitch, but the middle is pretty long and flat.

Still pretty cool.  Hope they get it.  I'd definitely try to go


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

Would love to see a race at Mount Ellen....like they did way back in the day.


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

And POWDR is taking a page from the Park City playbook.  POWDR's predecessor, Mr. Badami, made ski racing a big deal at Park City and gave these events a rock concert vibe.  I'm sure that is the plan here as well.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 1, 2015)

That's actually pretty cool.  The location of that trail in relation to the lodge, base, and U-bars make it perfect.  Very visible and well-known trail.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm guessing they wouldn't mention Superstar in the press release if it didn't meet current world cup homoligation standards.

This is an AWESOME idea in my opinion!!


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 1, 2015)

Better hope that the USSA and FIS don't read the "Killington - Infrastructure Collapse Pending" threads posted at multiple ski forums by Highway Star if Powdr Corp thinks they have any chance of landing this event.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 1, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Superstar a little flat for a World Cup GS race?



No written rules pertaning to steepness other than for a slalom race.  Should note, the lower "footwall" of Superstar is too steep.  But what defines "very short parts of the course"?  According to the DEM I downloaded, the steep bit exceeds 52% for about 140 feet long.  It rarely gets flatter than 33%.

Below are the rules for Ladies' WC SL and GS courses:



			
				FIS ICR said:
			
		

> 800 Slalom
> 
> 801 Technical Data
> 
> ...


----------



## cdskier (Oct 1, 2015)

thetrailboss said:


> Would love to see a race at Mount Ellen....like they did way back in the day.



+1


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 1, 2015)

It would be cool to see Killington host a big event like this....get the locals and diehards excited.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 1, 2015)

I've always wondered what a Chinese Downhill from K-1 to the base of Skyeship would look like.  I'd pay money to see that.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 1, 2015)

Doing it in November?    Great, cant wait for all the, _"teh east haz no snoh"_ comments after that.


----------



## fbrissette (Oct 1, 2015)

Highway Star will win this easy.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 1, 2015)

fbrissette said:


> Highway Star will win this easy.



He's already waxing his 240cm set with 5mm underfoot and 80m turning radius


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 1, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> No written rules pertaning to steepness other than for a slalom race.  Should note, the lower "footwall" of Superstar is too steep.  But what defines "very short parts of the course"?  According to the DEM I downloaded, the steep bit exceeds 52% for about 140 feet long.  It rarely gets flatter than 33%.
> 
> Below are the rules for Ladies' WC SL and GS courses:



If they set across the hill, they can get around the steepness at the bottom. Seen it done before. If this happens...I am there!


----------



## Jully (Oct 1, 2015)

andrec10 said:


> If they set across the hill, they can get around the steepness at the bottom. Seen it done before. If this happens...I am there!



The middle section is still pretty flat though. All the recent GS courses I can think of are pretty uniform. If there's a problem with SS it's definitely cause of being too flat, not too steep, but I really doubt there's a problem.


----------



## Jcb890 (Oct 1, 2015)

Very cool!  I hope Killington gets it.  Too bad I won't be able to attend.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 2, 2015)

Personally I couldn't care less about a race. My biggest concern with something like this is how it will effect snowmaking operations on the rest of the mountain. But that's me.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Jully said:


> The middle section is still pretty flat though. All the recent GS courses I can think of are pretty uniform. If there's a problem with SS it's definitely cause of being too flat, not too steep, but I really doubt there's a problem.



A significant portion (1960 ft., apx, 37% of the length) of the Birds of Prey GS course is less than 33%.  Ruthie's GS (Aspen, ladies) has that narrow traverse with about 430 feet less than 33%



			
				doublediamond said:
			
		

> [Superstar] rarely gets flatter than 33%.



Superstar is nowhere near "too flat."


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> My biggest concern with something like this is how it will effect snowmaking operations on the rest of the mountain. But that's me.



Superstar probably will be bumped up to #2 on the snowmaking list instead of filling out Snowdon.  With Killington Opening mid-October to early-November since the Stairway went in, there won't be any problem except for the very warmest of winters to have .  Don't forget that most of the middle/upper portions of Superstar are now lined with the SnowLogic ultra-low-E guns (with half the spacing as the old SR towers), and the bottom is getting several Fan towers this summer.  The low-E snowmaking tech really has grown by leaps and bounds the past 3 years or so. Who knows what next winter will bring!


----------



## joshua segal (Oct 2, 2015)

For the amount of open terrain, Killington is way too crowded in November.  I think it is a terrible idea - at least for Killington's early season regulars.


----------



## marcski (Oct 2, 2015)

I think this is awesome!!  The Beast, most certainly, is back!!  

Joshua, as you know, this will be on a self-contained pod. Even with limited early season terrain, the way Killington is setup, those who wish to ski can spread out and away from the crowds and race area. I think this is a tremendous opportunity for Killington.  Plus, the revenue from the races will far outweigh any regular Turkey weekend skiing revenue.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 2, 2015)

Awesome idea in my book. I guess they don't have a problem with the two lift towers across the bottom pitch.

Regarding the effects to early season, I would think this actually will help. Once the race is over that is a lot of open acreage to spread crowds out vs one thin run down Snowdon.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 2, 2015)

I guess Sunday River will now be my T-day weekend place to go.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

BenedictGomez said:


> Doing it in November?    Great, cant wait for all the, _"teh east haz no snoh"_ comments after that.



*This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.*


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

ss20 said:


> I've always wondered what a Chinese Downhill from K-1 to the base of Skyeship would look like.  I'd pay money to see that.



It's hella fun.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> Superstar probably will be bumped up to #2 on the snowmaking list instead of filling out Snowdon.  With Killington Opening mid-October to early-November since the Stairway went in, there won't be any problem except for the very warmest of winters to have .  Don't forget that most of the middle/upper portions of Superstar are now lined with the SnowLogic ultra-low-E guns (with half the spacing as the old SR towers), and the bottom is getting several Fan towers this summer.  The low-E snowmaking tech really has grown by leaps and bounds the past 3 years or so. Who knows what next winter will bring!



If they have even slightly less than optimal temps, they will NEVER be able to produce enough snow with the low-e snowguns.  They're going to have to use old style guns with a bunch of air compressors running full tilt.


----------



## machski (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> *This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.*



I don't get it.  You complain Killington doesn't host big time ski events.  Now they get one potentially lined up (granted early season) and you start pissbooing it right away.  Would you be happy if they held it in January or February on SS cutting out a big chunk of the middle of the resort during peak season for it?  From a logistics of skiing public, this seems like a great time to do this.  And don't doubt the new Low-E guns in marginal temps.  Sunday River figured them out and rarely uses the older guns even when it gets marginal on the early season terrain now.  I'm sure Killington has adapted and will be locked in now.  In fact, I bet they will test out their plans this year for this and blow Superstar wide open very early this year as well.  Just to prove to the Highway Stars out there they can and will pull this off.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> *This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.*



And yet if they pull it off, I can already for see the overhead shot from the top of the lower Superstar Headwall, with both sides of the trail ringed with spectators heading down towards a packed K-1 base area with the U-bars in the image as Michaela Shriffrin rips down to win the slalom, likely on live national TV - K wins HUGE if they pull that off.

Your point about the weather variability is valid though Highwaystar - if next November was like November of 2011 where many resorts weren't even open on Thanksgiving weekend due to unseasonably warm temps, than a race cancellation would be tough to take.  

I still feel though that the potential upside still outweighs the downside (and the fact that the 1st of the proposed races is on my birthday has nothing to do with my enthusiasm  )


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 2, 2015)

If they're unable to make enough snow for the race then chances are they or anyone else wouldn't even be open. It isn't difficult to calculate how many extra man hours and acres to get enough width and base on SS for this based on an average wet bulb percentile for that time period. If they feel the low E guns are not going to cut the mustard you can bet they'll have more rental compressors on hand for the K guns. They know their infrastructure and capabilities better than anyone in the armchair.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 2, 2015)

Like I said I couldn't give a hoot about the race. I'm just worried about how it will effect other snowmaking operations. The last year they had the DEW Tour at K they never blew any snow at all on Double Dipper or Devils Fiddle. Neither trail officially opened that year although they were poached. Cover was thin on a lot of other areas of the mountain too. Do you know how unsightly it was to ride the Canyon chair Jan-Mar & see a bare DD? Didn't really help their snowmaking reputation that year.

Not to mention it messed up Bear/Skye Peak for weeks because of trail closures.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 2, 2015)

What was the course at Mt Ellen?  FIS->Rim Run->Lower FIS...it needs to be longer.  They did the old timers race at Lincoln Peak down Snowball->Spring Fling.


----------



## powhunter (Oct 2, 2015)

Good for Killington!  Just hope the November weather doesn't screw them too hard. I'd much rather see WC moguls on Outer Limits


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drjeff (Oct 2, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Like I said I couldn't give a hoot about the race. I'm just worried about how it will effect other snowmaking operations. The last year they had the DEW Tour at K they never blew any snow at all on Double Dipper or Devils Fiddle. Neither trail officially opened that year although they were poached. Cover was thin on a lot of other areas of the mountain too. Do you know how unsightly it was to ride the Canyon chair Jan-Mar & see a bare DD? Didn't really help their snowmaking reputation that year.
> 
> Not to mention it messed up Bear/Skye Peak for weeks because of trail closures.



My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.

The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2015)

drjeff said:


> My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.
> 
> The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.



+1 no comparison between getting adequate coverage down for a WC race compared with a Dew tour event.  

It's also getting made on the single most used trail on the mountain as opposed to a minimally used half pipe.

I definitely get the limiting early terrain arguments and potential for bad marketing showing a brown hill with a strip of white.  Hopefully mother nature helps out the marketing department.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

drjeff said:


> My hunch is no matter how much snow K makes on Superstar for a worldcup race in November, it will be far less than they'll eventually make on Superstar over the course of the full season for spring operations.
> 
> The Dew Tour was making a massive amount of snow, in an area where they usually wouldn't of made as much, and then don't "use" that snow until it melts out at the bitter end.



I've said for years that they need to use superstar for more events.  Duh.  But certainly not in November.  These people are lunatics.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I've said for years that they need to use superstar for more events.  Duh.  But certainly not in November.  These people are lunatics.



And you think Killington has a shot at a WC event any other time of the season?????


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

It'd be nearly impossible to host the race at any other time.  Every other week is full.  The only time they are on this side of the pond are:

Thanksgiving:
* Ladies' GS/SL in USA (usually Aspen)
* Men's DH/SG in Canada (Lake Louise)

1st weekend December:
* Ladies' DH/SG in Canada (Lake Louise)
* Men's DH and 2 of: GS/SG/Combined (Birds of Prey)

The week prior to Thanksgiving is shuffleing everything over here.  Most of the week after is used as the same as the following weekend are technical (GS/SL) races for both men and women.

Every other week is booked to the end of the calendar.  WC racing in New England would only ever be a ladies' event.  You can bet my last penney the USSA won't move the Men anywhere ... Birds of Prey is one of the most popular courses for the ski racers.  To have a WC race in New England mid-season would mean the Lake Louise and Birds of Prey races get moved as well, **AND** the canceling or reshuffling of many European races with at least one week off mid-season for transit.

Considering the firepower of Killington and Beaver Creek relative to most European venues, it's better to host them here Early on than making a European race bump theirs up.

---

The Dew Tour is apples and oranges.  There they made tons of snow in a place they don't make [relatively] a lot of snow for a one-off event mid-winter necessitating taking the resources from the rest of the mountain.  A WC race will require **FAR** less snow and it will be on a popular trail.

And, don't forget, the racers love nearly ice-hard snow.  Even man-made is too dry for them... they inject water and salt the race course to make it hard.  This is a very good thing for May or June skiing on Superstar.  At that part of the year, the snow is melting from both the top and the bottom.  An ice-hard base will be far more durable to melting from below than a normal man-made base.  

Also, don't forget, the limiting factor in early-season snowmaking is air. You'd be naïve to think the USSA won't require Killington to have boatloads of compressors on hand to make snow on all of Superstar using their most inefficient gun.

These ultra-low-E guns are killers.  You're underestimating them.  They were used extensively in early season snowmaking last year.  The ground guns have a maximum flow of 75 gpm which would be at around 0F WB and colder. Generally guns don't get worse than 10-12x in efficiency at 28 WB (which is the upper operating temp of these guns.  The Ratnik low-E guns can go up to 29.6F WB!)  That means they'd be pumping out somewhere on the order of 7.5 gpm while only using 8 cfm of air.  Guess what.  You put two of those side-by-side and you get the output of the HKD SV10 or HKD Impulse, which are the "gold standard" now of early-season snowmaking.  At that rate you could put them every 5 feet and you'd use less air and make far more snow than before.

This ain't your father's technology.  Air-hogs are quickly going the way of the past.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> If they're unable to make enough snow for the race then chances are they or anyone else wouldn't even be open. It isn't difficult to calculate how many extra man hours and acres to get enough width and base on SS for this based on an average wet bulb percentile for that time period. If they feel the low E guns are not going to cut the mustard you can bet they'll have more rental compressors on hand for the K guns. They know their infrastructure and capabilities better than anyone in the armchair.



Well, put this to the BS test....

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres.  They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks.  So that's 75 acre feet of snow.  About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage,  to the bottom of the K-1.  They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.  

Now, without getting into the details of the low-e snowguns, which are FAR less effective than old style snowguns at marginal temps..........what has Killington's past performance been like?  Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max.  The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails.  In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Now what about this race?  They are contractually commited to host it and if they can't pull it off, they stand to loose a pile of money.  Hopefully they have insurance for this sort of thing.  Lets compare senarios based on past winters - each of these happen about a third of the time:

Cold November:  No problem, race happens, skiing for public likely on other trails off superstar chairs, plus K-1, NRT and Snowdon.

Average November:  Race draws most snowmaking resouces for first half of November.  Superstar might be open to public for first half of November.  Snowmaking on K-1 / NRT starts once Superstar looks to be in good shape, public skiing only on NRT for Thanksgiving weekend (45 minute lift lines).

Warm, rainy November:  Snowmaking focused entirely on Superstar, during small overnight windows of snowmaking, with several rain events melting snow.  * No public skiing on Thanksgiving weekend.

So, by my estimates they have a 2/3rd's chance of having either NO public skiing, or skiing on the NRT only for Thanksgiving - both of those are pretty bad senarios.

*This is not even taking into account the chances of an ice storm, major rain storm, or 70F thaw the week of the event.  

EPIC FAIL!


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> These ultra-low-E guns are killers.  You're underestimating them.  They were used extensively in early season snowmaking last year.  The ground guns have a maximum flow of 75 gpm which would be at around 0F WB and colder. Generally guns don't get worse than 10-12x in efficiency at 28 WB (which is the upper operating temp of these guns.  The Ratnik low-E guns can go up to 29.6F WB!)  That means they'd be pumping out somewhere on the order of 7.5 gpm while only using 8 cfm of air.  Guess what.  You put two of those side-by-side and you get the output of the HKD SV10 or HKD Impulse, which are the "gold standard" now of early-season snowmaking.  At that rate you could put them every 5 feet and you'd use less air and make far more snow than before.
> 
> This ain't your father's technology.  Air-hogs are quickly going the way of the past.



This is totally false.  Low-e guns are completely ineffective in marginal temps.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> This is totally false.  Low-e guns are completely ineffective in marginal temps.



They're "ineffective" because they put out so little per gun. You double or more up, you match the output of other guns. 2 of these SnowLogics match one modern HKD tower while using less air.  2 modern HKD towers matches the K3000 or Ratnik Snow Giant II while using less air.

If you're so smart, you tell me the flow characteristics of the SnowLogic 4-step ground gun with an 8 cfm nucleating nozzle.

Look at Loon.  100% low-E snowguns for early season snowmaking. They're kicking a lot of butt.  They more or less doubled their hydrants with their snowmaking upgrades a couple years ago.

Look at Wildcat.  100% low-E guns on Lynx.  They were the first to have a 2000 vertical ft trail.  About half of their guns on Lynx are these SnowLogics.

Look at Sunday River.  100% low-E guns on T2.  They match or beat Killington. 30-ft hydrant spacing just like Killington up around the Ridge Triple.

The only time they are "ineffective" is if it's over 28F WB.  In that case no one anywhere in New England will be making snow because these air-hogs have just gotten far too expensive with high energy costs these days.

The new Ratnik ground guns they got can go up to 31F WB, with an air-water ratio of only about 14:1 at that temperature. Here's the flow curves for the Ratnik Snow Giant II.  The Baby Snow Giant X-2 which is what Killington has, is "40% or more efficient."


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well, put this to the BS test....
> 
> Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres.  They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks.  So that's 75 acre feet of snow.  About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage,  to the bottom of the K-1.  They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.



Wow.  You know nothing about grooming.  No snowmaking trail in New England needs 5-ft of man made to get the groomer over it.  You're nuts.  They also don't groom race trails at this calibre flat.  They leave every little bump in the hill up on the skiing surface.  You really only need about 18".

And the "Snow Control" visit the week before isn't just to see if they have enough snow.  They will look at the weather and the ability to make snow.  Killington can blast early season snowmaking VERY fast.



Highway Star said:


> EPIC FAIL!




Ahahaha.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> They're "ineffective" because they put out so little per gun. You double or more up, you match the output of other guns. 2 of these SnowLogics match one modern HKD tower while using less air.  2 modern HKD towers matches the K3000 or Ratnik Snow Giant II while using less air.
> 
> If you're so smart, you tell me the flow characteristics of the SnowLogic 4-step ground gun with an 8 cfm nucleating nozzle.
> 
> ...



*Lol, what? * I bet most of the places you cite are swaping out snowguns to high-e types in marginal temps. You're falling for ski area enviro-marketing BS.  At 28f wet bulb, low-e guns make almost no snow.  Nobody is putting a snowgun every 5 feet.  Killington uses their K3000's and ratnicks *ALL THE TIME IN MARGINAL TEMPS BECAUSE THEY ARE FAR MORE EFFECTIVE.  PERIOD.

YOU'RE WRONG.  STOP POSTING MISINFORMATION.  YOU CAN'T OVERCOME PHYSICS.*


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> Wow.  You know nothing about grooming.  No snowmaking trail in New England needs 5-ft of man made to get the groomer over it.  You're nuts.  They also don't groom race trails at this calibre flat.  They leave every little bump in the hill up on the skiing surface.  You really only need about 18".
> 
> And the "Snow Control" visit the week before isn't just to see if they have enough snow.  They will look at the weather and the ability to make snow.  Killington can blast early season snowmaking VERY fast.
> 
> Ahahaha.



Unless the FIS is run by morons (which is quite possible, look at 35m GS skis), they will not do this at Killington once they look at their history.

Most black and double black diamond trails at Killington get about 5 feet of snow on them before they are groomed out.  They have plenty of rocks and deep waterbars on them


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> At 28f wet bulb, low-e guns make almost no snow.



How did Loon and Wildcat or Killington open so early with 100% low-E guns?!? 



Highway Star said:


> Nobody is putting a snowgun every 5 feet.



I'm not saying Killington needs to do so. I'm saying they *can* while using *LESS* air than currently.  These guns are $5k+ a pop.



Highway Star said:


> YOU'RE WRONG.  STOP POSTING MISINFORMATION.  YOU CAN'T OVERCOME PHYSICS.[/B]



November 2 last year, early season snowmaking:






Yes, that isn't 28F WB.  But the second stage is on full-bore.

EDIT: The low that day was 30F 80% Humidity in Rutland around 8 to 9 AM.  WB of 28.7 This pic looks like that time frame of day.  IDK at what elevation this pic was at, but for sake of argument let's say 3787' (3000' above KRUT). 3000 ÷ 1000 x -3.56 = -10.7

At the very best, the WB was around 18.0 WB.

So.  If I'm so wrong, what can a SnowLogic 4-step gun with an 8-cfm nucleating nozzle put out at 28F WB? 26F WB? 24? Etc? Seriously, before you start using size 9000 font, prove to me I'm wrong.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> How did Loon and Wildcat or Killington open so early with 100% low-E guns?!?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_*WOW!

That's super impressive, you know, how those there low-e guns are virtually painting the trail with snow.  Like a really fierce paint sprayer!  Wow!!!

I mean, seriously, it looks like they may have blown at least 4" of snow there. Wow, amazing!  I can barely see the grass sticking through!  Looks like nice solid, icy, base bulding snow too, my favorite.

Give them another TWO WEEKS, and they might actually get open on November 15th.  Just like Loon!!!

http://www.loonmtn.com/media-center/latest-news/opening-day-at-loon

You sure proved me wrong!


:roll:
*_


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

So when did they start making snow on that trail?  It looks like East Fall to me.  When did the trail open?!?

I repeat. Before you use size 9000 font, what the fuck is the flow characteristics of a SnowLogic gun?!?!?!?!

Seriously, you're funny.

Right from their presser:



			
				Loon Mountain PR said:
			
		

> "Our improvements in efficiency over the last several years give us a huge early-season snowmaking advantage over what we could do just a few years ago," said Ralph Lewis, Loon's director of skiing operations.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> EDIT: The low that day was 30F 80% Humidity in Rutland around 8 to 9 AM.  WB of 28.7 This pic looks like that time frame of day.  IDK at what elevation this pic was at, but for sake of argument let's say 3787' (3000' above KRUT). 3000 ÷ 1000 x -3.56 = -10.7
> 
> At the very best, the WB was around 18.0 WB.



You're a fool.


----------



## tumbler (Oct 2, 2015)

Why doesn't Whiteface push for a event?  Did the course criteria change in the last 35 years that the Olympic run doesn't qualify?


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

Here's a nice shot of the snowlogic guns - note the large number OG K3000 snowguns running in the background:


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Heck, even if they used Ratnik BSGX-2's, they'd still make snow in plenty of time:

31F WB ... 14:1

1 gun every 100 feet (standard) ... 250 cfm & 17.8 gpm ... 8500 cfm, 605 gpm

I'm highly confident Killington has more than an 8500 cfm air supply.

3400 x 250 = 19.5 acres

1.5 ft depth = 29.3 acre-ft of snow

1 acre-ft = 180,000 gallons (fairly wet man-made snow)

6.0 days non-stop at 31WB. 

Now considering it will be colder than that, they'll put out more snow. And they can also make a lot more up top and push it down if need be.

Considering that the hydrants are closer than 100 ft on Supestar, they'll just make snow that faster.

They have more than enough ability to open Glades > base & Superstar by Thanksgiving except in the very warmest of winters, where no ski area will be making any snow at all.

If you don't like this math, use logic:  replace filling out Snowdon with opening Superstar.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

tumbler said:


> Why doesn't Whiteface push for a event?  Did the course criteria change in the last 35 years that the Olympic run doesn't qualify?



Following the '80 Olympics they let the sides of the upper trails grow back.


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well, put this to the BS test....
> 
> Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres.  They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks.  So that's 75 acre feet of snow.  About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage,  to the bottom of the K-1.  They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.
> 
> ...



5 feet of snow? You're nuts - take it from someone who has to budget and create snowmaking plans, 2 feet is adequate and there will be no rocks. Cut your #s way down.

Also, you are patently wrong that Low-E guns are ineffective, you just need more. Every big player but K uses them early season, but they have density.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Here's a nice shot of the snowlogic guns - note the large number OG K3000 snowguns running in the background:



And what really is your point?

That was mid-season snowmaking at low temperatures.  Apples and oranges.  The efficiency bump from using low-E guns decreases with lower temperatures.  

And we have to think about other things... What's the reasoning for using those guns? Was it windy that day? Did they not have enough SnowLogics? Were they making sure they're still proficient with that gun? Are those even K3000s? That's pretty blurry and hard to tell.  Their Ratniks are on old K3000 tripods. Is it because K3000s and Ratniks have better throw (100ft vs. 50ft. for SnowLogic ground guns) as it makes the piles made during the day spread out more and better to ski on? Or did they just want to save groomer money?

And we don't even have to argue about the SnowLogics making enough snow anymore because:



			
				Killington Resort Facebook said:
			
		

> You don't have to worry about that - we would add significant horsepower so we can expand as our guests have come to expect and still produce a world class race venue.



They're admitting they'll have rental compressors for making snow over on Superstar.

I don't think it's necessarily because they fucked up with the Dew Tour.  I imagine it's the USSA's requirement to have the even there.  USSA pays a lot to Copper to have early season training.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> *1.5 ft depth* = 29.3 acre-ft of snow



You're on crack if you think they will hold an FIS event on a foot and a half of snow.  Killington won't even open a trail with that kind of base depth.  And that's not even accounting for snow melting.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> You're on crack if you think they will hold an FIS event on a foot and a half of snow.  Killington won't even open a trail with that kind of base depth.  And that's not even accounting for snow melting.



Haha what?!?  Killington routinely opens early season trails on far less than 18 inches.

Newpylong says he does this stuff for a living.  I will take his word over yours.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> 5 feet of snow? You're nuts - take it from someone who has to budget and create snowmaking plans, 2 feet is adequate and there will be no rocks. Cut your #s way down.
> 
> Also, you are patently wrong that Low-E guns are ineffective, you just need more. Every big player but K uses them early season, but they have density.



You've obviously never hiked Killington in the summer.  Most of their snowmaking trails are very rugged, and intended to have many feet of snow blown on them.  Upper and Lower Superstar need about 5 feet of snow to be opened and groomed.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 2, 2015)

Maybe, just maybe they do a little grading and trailwork in the problem areas to avoid having to make so much snow.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> You've obviously never hiked Killington in the summer.  Most of their snowmaking trails are very rugged, and intended to have many feet of snow blown on them.  Upper and Lower Superstar need about 5 feet of snow to be opened and groomed.



You would not be able to get your mower up and down a trail needing 5 feet of snow to be open.  Superstar isn't mowed by hand.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

This is rugged?











The only thing they need to worry about is getting over the water bars.

This is the kind of trail you need 5-feet on:


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> This is rugged?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have NO concept.

See the snowmaking towers?  They act like a snow gauge.  It's very easy to tell how much snow is on the trail.  You're on crack.


----------



## WWF-VT (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond should stop the nonsense back and forth with Highwway Star as everyone knows that HWS is an authority on any topic related to skiing and Killington including skis, bindings, snow, snow making, resort management, marketing, accounting, public relations, food and beverage operations, ski school, racing programs, lift construction, lift operation and maintenance as well as any other subject that can be discussed in a thread on a ski forum* PERIOD.  *I heard from a reliable source that POWDR and Killington have repeatedly tried to hire him to run their operations,  but insiders have prevented his hiring in fear that Killington would become just about perfect which would result in a rapid decline of mindless discussion threads on Alpinezone and other ski forums.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 2, 2015)

Just because they make 20+ feet for the spring glacier doesn't mean they need 5 ft to open up the trail.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 2, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> Haha what?!?  Killington routinely opens early season trails on far less than 18 inches.
> 
> Newpylong says he does this stuff for a living.  I will take his word over yours.



But this is a world cup event. There needs to be 2-3 feet minimum to flatten out the trail. It will also be injected if its not hard enough.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 2, 2015)

How long has K been using their own K3000 series?  Always wondered that.

As for depth, Superstar it is a rugged trail and will need closer to 5 feet of snow to open rather than 1.5.  My guess it they'll aim for the 3-4 foot range.


----------



## machski (Oct 2, 2015)

Look, the water bars need to be filled in, but that is easy by starting the make by aiming to fill those first.  Given they will want to water inject if possible, I'd say 2.5ft average base depth.  Some portions may need to be deeper pack while some can probably go less.


----------



## machski (Oct 2, 2015)

As for Low E guns, Sunday River uses predominately SV10 guns on T2 and they push enough in marginal temps to allow T2 to go from bare ground on a Thursday afternoon to open Friday morning.  Now, in that instance it was now where near to ready for a race, but there was enough down for a great first day in October.  (In all fairness, they do have some Sr7/14 guns as backups at certain points and occasionally mix these in but only at the points where the gun spacing is poor).


----------



## freeski (Oct 2, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> doublediamond should stop the nonsense back and forth with Highwway Star as everyone knows that HWS is an authority on any topic related to skiing and Killington including skis, bindings, snow, snow making, resort management, marketing, accounting, public relations, food and beverage operations, ski school, racing programs, lift construction, lift operation and maintenance as well as any other subject that can be discussed in a thread on a ski forum* PERIOD.  *I heard from a reliable source that POWDR and Killington have repeatedly tried to hire him to run their operations,  but insiders have prevented his hiring in fear that Killington would become just about perfect which would result in a rapid decline of mindless discussion threads on Alpinezone and other ski forums.


This is the best post I've ever read on any ski forum and I've read thousands. 8)


----------



## marcski (Oct 3, 2015)

If the FIS agrees, this is huge for K-mart!  They are going to dump the shit of of Supe to ensure they get it up to FIS par.  The prediction is 15-20 mil in revenue for the resort. What do you think they get on a normal Turkey weekend? Nowhere even close to that number. It is practically a no-brainer for them. Plus, as others have said, after the race, supe will be that much better off.  They'll only need to build a 25 foot base to get it up to 30' for spring season.


----------



## manhattanskier (Oct 4, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> *This is likely to be Killington's biggest marketing / image disaster ever.*



Superstar has always been open in November. The Beast can't wait to make this your worst prediction yet ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone, I blame auto correct ;-)


----------



## manhattanskier (Oct 4, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> doublediamond should stop the nonsense back and forth with Highwway Star as everyone knows that HWS is an authority on any topic related to skiing and Killington including skis, bindings, snow, snow making, resort management, marketing, accounting, public relations, food and beverage operations, ski school, racing programs, lift construction, lift operation and maintenance as well as any other subject that can be discussed in a thread on a ski forum* PERIOD.  *I heard from a reliable source that POWDR and Killington have repeatedly tried to hire him to run their operations,  but insiders have prevented his hiring in fear that Killington would become just about perfect which would result in a rapid decline of mindless discussion threads on Alpinezone and other ski forums.



This is the best thing on Alinezone lol


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone, I blame auto correct ;-)


----------



## drjeff (Oct 4, 2015)

Given that HKD is the official supplier of the US Ski and Snowboard Team, Snowlogic has been as of earlier this year using Killington in their industry promotional print ads, the simple, undisputed fact that Superstar, even before Killington brings in any extra "firepower" is one of the most densely covered trails for air, water and hydrants anywhere, that as long as mother nature is anything but WAY above normal next November, that K will be able to pull this off should the FIS award them these proposed races.

Killington just has far too much snowmaking talent and options available to them at their disposal than most anybody out there. Additionally, since I'm guessing that the VT ski industry as a whole would realize that the entire state can benefit a bit from the coverage this can bring, that should K's snowmakers need some extra help, or some extra pieces of specific equipment on short notice, that there would be trucks loaded with whatever they needed heading from other mountains to K to help out


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 4, 2015)

manhattanskier said:


> Superstar has always been open in November. The Beast can't wait to make this your worst prediction yet ;-)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone, I blame auto correct ;-)



Superstar trail is (almost) never open in November.


----------



## 180 (Oct 4, 2015)

freeski said:


> This is the best post I've ever read on any ski forum and I've read thousands. 8)


'

correct


----------



## machski (Oct 5, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Superstar trail is (almost) never open in November.



I believe HS is correct.  I'm pretty sure the Superstar Chair gets open but I believe they usually start with bittersweet/skylark.  My guess is, that changes this year or SS itself gets added in as a demonstration.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 5, 2015)

Here's a question.  The Waterville Valley races in 1991 were in March.  What is preventing schedulers from looking at similar dates for the Northeast?

Wouldn't it make sense for the growth of the sport that the Northeast gets a tour stop each year?  With the huge population base we have here, it seems like the best way to get exposure for our sport.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 5, 2015)

Its Official....:lol::lol::lol:

*Introduction of Killington as a ladies’ World Cup organizer*
Twenty-five years after the last World Cup races in Waterville Valley, N.H., the World Cup tour is heading back on the East Coast of the U.S. The ski racing tradition is very strong in that area of North America, which will make the stop in Killington, Vt., in the 2016-17 season very exciting. Killington is taking over the weekend Aspen traditionally has in the calendar as Aspen will be hosting the World Cup Finals in 2017.

http://www.skiracing.com/stories/alpine-update-from-the-fis-autumn-meeting/


----------



## drjeff (Oct 5, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Here's a question.  The Waterville Valley races in 1991 were in March.  What is preventing schedulers from looking at similar dates for the Northeast?
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense for the growth of the sport that the Northeast gets a tour stop each year?  With the huge population base we have here, it seems like the best way to get exposure for our sport.



The reality is that in Jan through the end of the WC season in late March, unless the world championships or the Olympics are in North America, you're not in the foreseeable future going to get a race in the US in that time frame - logistically to get the athletes from Europe over to the US, acclimated to the time change, snow conditions and potentially altitude if a Western race was added, you'd be talking almost a 2 week schedule situation for a weekend of racing - no mid week SL's or GS's as are often a part of the European schedule could happen, and given that 3 out of every 4 years the world cup tour schedule is already "consumed" with a 2+ week either World Championships or Olympics, it would be a scheduling nightmare, even though personally I'd love to see it happen!!


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 5, 2015)

What were the special circumstances that allowed for the Waterville races?

I guess I just feel it's foolish to not have a race every year within driving distance of NYC.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 5, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Superstar trail is (almost) never open in November.


Maybe not top to bottom but the upper section (headwall?) certainly is. It usually opens weeks before the rest of the trail. Same thing with upper Downdraft (headwall?). It's usually one of the first trails to open after they get Great Northern open off the top going over to North Ridge. Sometimes before they even have TTB skiing. Killington holds their annual Turkey Jam every year on upper Downdraft. The rest of the trail opens much later.

edit: this is why I agree with areas calling trails upper, middle, lower. Gives you a much better idea of what's actually open instead of just saying Superstar is open.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Maybe not top to bottom but the upper section (headwall?) certainly is. It usually opens weeks before the rest of the trail. Same thing with upper Downdraft (headwall?). It's usually one of the first trails to open after they get Great Northern open off the top going over to North Ridge. Sometimes before they even have TTB skiing. Killington holds their annual Turkey Jam every year on upper Downdraft. The rest of the trail opens much later.
> 
> edit: this is why I agree with areas calling trails upper, middle, lower. Gives you a much better idea of what's actually open instead of just saying Superstar is open.



So, it's not open, like I said.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 5, 2015)

andrec10 said:


> Its Official....:lol::lol::lol:
> 
> *Introduction of Killington as a ladies’ World Cup organizer*
> Twenty-five years after the last World Cup races in Waterville Valley, N.H., the World Cup tour is heading back on the East Coast of the U.S. The ski racing tradition is very strong in that area of North America, which will make the stop in Killington, Vt., in the 2016-17 season very exciting. Killington is taking over the weekend Aspen traditionally has in the calendar as Aspen will be hosting the World Cup Finals in 2017.
> ...


I think you're just kidding (judging by the smileys). This is from the same website you linked.

"The bid will be submitted to the FIS at its fall meetings in Zurichthat run through Saturday. It is anticipated that the bid will then be put onto the draft 2016-17 World Cup calendar that will be finalized next June."


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 5, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> So, it's not open, like I said.


What part of upper Superstar being open don't you understand?


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> I think you're just kidding (judging by the smileys). This is from the same website you linked.
> 
> "The bid will be submitted to the FIS at its fall meetings in Zurichthat run through Saturday. It is anticipated that the bid will then be put onto the draft 2016-17 World Cup calendar that will be finalized next June."



The meeting was held on Friday. I was not kidding. Sounds official to me, but what do I know....


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 5, 2015)

andrec10 said:


> The meeting was held on Friday. I was not kidding. Sounds official to me, but what do I know....


It sounds as if it will happen but it also says the calendar won't be finalized until June so things could change.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> It sounds as if it will happen but it also says the calendar won't be finalized until June so things could change.



The reality is if the USSA backs this, and with Aspen, who usually hosts the women's WC November US races hosting the '17 Alpine World Championships, this is a done deal! :flag:


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> What part of upper Superstar being open don't you understand?



For the purposes of this thread, the WHOLE of the trail is not open, and thus it is NOT OPEN, ESPECIALLY TO HOLD A RACE ON IT.


----------



## yeggous (Oct 5, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> For the purposes of this thread, the WHOLE of the trail is not open, and thus it is NOT OPEN, ESPECIALLY TO HOLD A RACE ON IT.



This is just a matter of priorities for management. Bretton Woods and Wildcat open up top-to-bottom in early November using 100% low-E HKD and SnoLogic guns. Meanwhile Killington skiers are still playing with themselves up on the Northridge chair.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## drjeff (Oct 5, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> For the purposes of this thread, the WHOLE of the trail is not open, and thus it is NOT OPEN, ESPECIALLY TO HOLD A RACE ON IT.



Let's be 100% honest HS - if K brings in extra snowmaking firepower, as they say they will, and K has the typical from Nov 1st window of of snowmaking weather (not continuous, but at least 1/2 of those days, if not more) that they typically do down to K-1 base, with a slight shift in their classical snowmaking roll out pattern, snow coverage for a WC race the last weekend of November won't be an issue say 8 years out of 10.

As for the crowds, world cup race or not, we all know that it's going to be a sh$t show on the hill at K Thanksgiving weekend.

If K pulls this off, who knows, maybe their revenues will increase enough for some new infrastructure for them


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 5, 2015)

drjeff said:


> Let's be 100% honest HS - if K brings in extra snowmaking firepower, as they say they will, and K has the typical from Nov 1st window of of snowmaking weather (not continuous, but at least 1/2 of those days, if not more) that they typically do down to K-1 base, with a slight shift in their classical snowmaking roll out pattern, snow coverage for a WC race the last weekend of November won't be an issue say 8 years out of 10.
> 
> As for the crowds, world cup race or not, we all know that it's going to be a sh$t show on the hill at K Thanksgiving weekend.
> 
> If K pulls this off, who knows, maybe their revenues will increase enough for some new infrastructure for them



While most people probably are not like me I will change my Thanksgiving weekend normal K visit to head somewhere else. Not that my money will be missed. I usually do not find K that much of a shit show that weekend.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Oct 6, 2015)

I'm guessing this is a one time event anyway isnt it?Wont Aspen get it back the next year?The only reason its up for grabs is because Aspen is hosting the WC's that year.


----------



## Jully (Oct 6, 2015)

Well, if the event goes really well I'd assume that it could lead to some long term changes to shift something back to the east coast.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 6, 2015)

Jully said:


> Well, if the event goes really well I'd assume that it could lead to some long term changes to shift something back to the east coast.



Well, they seem to be having a problem with snow reliablity and temperatures in the West and Europe....?  So maybe eastern events are starting to make more sense with the snowmaking.


----------



## Jully (Oct 6, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well, they seem to be having a problem with snow reliablity and temperatures in the West and Europe....?  So maybe eastern events are starting to make more sense with the snowmaking.



That's a good point and a really awesome possibility.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 6, 2015)

The USSA has expressly stated that they want an eastern race because of the population base.  If this is goes off without a hitch, I'm sure you can bet they'll come back starting in 2018. There isn't much draw for an Aspen race especially with Birds of Prey a week away. Now they'll have two races in two markets.  $ucce$$.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 7, 2015)

Much more negative about this over on TGR:

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/295385-Killington-is-owned-by-morons


----------



## machski (Oct 7, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Much more negative about this over on TGR:
> 
> http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/295385-Killington-is-owned-by-morons



HS, I see about 2 of the posters over there being negative and I'm guessing from one's comments that would be you.  Most of it seemed positive to me.  Just go pout in a corner for another 13 months and then we can all see who's doing the crying.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 7, 2015)

machski said:


> HS, I see about 2 of the posters over there being negative and I'm guessing from one's comments that would be you.  Most of it seemed positive to me.  Just go pout in a corner for another 13 months and then we can all see who's doing the crying.



I can't wait till it's 60F and pouring rain for this event.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 7, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I can't wait till it's 60F and pouring rain for this event.



I'm sure that's true.


----------



## machski (Oct 7, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I can't wait till it's 60F and pouring rain for this event.



Buddy, that happens over in Europe in the middle of the season as well.  Look at Cypress for the Vancouver olympics.  And that was February!!!  You complain about not getting events at Killington.  They get one and now you complain about that.  It can rain and be 60F even in January and February.  There can be a complete meltdown with temps push 90F mid to late March as there was several years ago and have the entire mountain shuttered.  Guess Killington should never try to hold an event, the weather could suck.  Killington has a great snowmaking system and the setup on SuperStar is likely one of the best on the planet for a single trail.  I don't know what more you could ask for.  Holding any ski event is a bit of a risk, no matter what time of the season or location.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 7, 2015)

machski said:


> Buddy, that happens over in Europe in the middle of the season as well.  Look at Cypress for the Vancouver olympics.  And that was February!!!  You complain about not getting events at Killington.  They get one and now you complain about that.  It can rain and be 60F even in January and February.  There can be a complete meltdown with temps push 90F mid to late March as there was several years ago and have the entire mountain shuttered.  Guess Killington should never try to hold an event, the weather could suck.  Killington has a great snowmaking system and the setup on SuperStar is likely one of the best on the planet for a single trail.  I don't know what more you could ask for.  Holding any ski event is a bit of a risk, no matter what time of the season or location.




Highway Star need to pull his head out of his @ss! Or maybe just keep it up there, so all we hear then is BWOP BWOP BWOP!


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 7, 2015)

machski said:


> Buddy, that happens over in Europe in the middle of the season as well.  Look at Cypress for the Vancouver olympics.  And that was February!!!  You complain about not getting events at Killington.  They get one and now you complain about that.  It can rain and be 60F even in January and February.  There can be a complete meltdown with temps push 90F mid to late March as there was several years ago and have the entire mountain shuttered.  Guess Killington should never try to hold an event, the weather could suck.  Killington has a great snowmaking system and the setup on SuperStar is likely one of the best on the planet for a single trail.  I don't know what more you could ask for.  Holding any ski event is a bit of a risk, no matter what time of the season or location.



No, they are poor managers that are setting themselves up to fail.  This kind of thing is too much of a risk, and is going to have far reaching, season long, negative impacts on the skiing for normal customers


----------



## drjeff (Oct 7, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> No, they are poor managers that are setting themselves up to fail.  This kind of thing is too much of a risk, and is going to have far reaching, season long, negative impacts on the skiing for normal customers



And yet if they succeed, they'll have a bunch of snow on Superstar as well as at least 1 other trail in the Superstar pod per a post on K's FB page today talking about how the plan will be to have another trail for the public/training available off SS while the worldcup is there, before December 1st, along with what they seem to think can be their usual trail rollout pattern, and a bunch of national and international publicity, and likely a nice boost to their revenue in the form of lift tickets, food and beverage and even hotel rooms, as well as the economic boost to the general Killington area.  That has huge upside.

You are correct though, if mother nature isn't cooperative, there certainly is a plenty of downside potential as well.  Heck for all we know they could have to cancel a race if a big storm hits and dumps a few feet of snow on the race hill on race day as well. Hosting a Worldcup race is both an honor and a risk


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Oct 7, 2015)

The fact that HS gets so worked up about these issues, is concerning.  I can see having discussion about it on a ski forum.  But expressing his "opinion" on multiple posts across multiple forums makes me think he's highly mentally unstable.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 7, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The fact that HS gets so worked up about these issues, is concerning.  I can see having discussion about it on a ski forum.  But expressing his "opinion" on multiple posts across multiple forums makes me think he's highly mentally unstable.





i do agree with the above statement!


----------



## marcski (Oct 7, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> No, they are poor managers that are setting themselves up to fail.  This kind of thing is too much of a risk, and is going to have far reaching, season long, negative impacts on the skiing for normal customers



You're far from normal.


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 7, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The fact that HS gets so worked up about these issues, is concerning.  I can see having discussion about it on a ski forum.  But expressing his "opinion" on multiple posts across multiple forums makes me think he's highly mentally unstable.



The collapse of the infrastructure rant of his was better than this one.:blink:


----------



## ss20 (Oct 7, 2015)

11 pages of one mans butthurt comments


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 7, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> The fact that HS gets so worked up about these issues, is concerning.  I can see having discussion about it on a ski forum.  But expressing his "opinion" on multiple posts across multiple forums makes me think he's highly mentally unstable.



I'm concerned you're a twit.  Don't make me call you out for a ski-off.


----------



## Quietman (Oct 7, 2015)

I think that people like this get off on all of attention that they can get, positive or negative, and you guys just can't resist feeding them, over and over and over and over again.   Arguing with a troll is a complete waste of time, unless you have a lot of time to waste.  I don't!

*DFTT*


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 7, 2015)

I think its Official now, but Highway Star (TROLL) might say otherwise!

http://digital.vpr.net/post/killington-will-host-2016-womens-world-cup-ski-events#stream/0


----------



## Quietman (Oct 7, 2015)

andrec10 said:


> I think its Official now, but Highway Star (TROLL) might say otherwise!
> 
> http://digital.vpr.net/post/killington-will-host-2016-womens-world-cup-ski-events#stream/0



I did not call anyone as specifically being a troll, as that would be feeding said person.  Again, please DFTT!  :wink:


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 7, 2015)

Anyone who posts on the internet is a troll. Take a look in the mirror some day.

Why wasn't Magic considered for this race?

From what I've heard it's awesome


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2015)

Quietman said:


> I did not call anyone as specifically being a troll, as that would be feeding said person.  Again, please DFTT!  :wink:



Well that's good, because I'm certainly not a troll.  I'm just an opinionated person that likes to debate on the internet.  Making personal insults and labeling someone a troll is just a way to stifle free discussion.  If you don't find this discussion of value, or you're not comfortable discussing the topic, feel free to not participate.


----------



## yeggous (Oct 8, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well that's good, because I'm certainly not a troll.  I'm just an opinionated person that likes to debate on the internet.  Making personal insults and labeling someone a troll is just a way to stifle free discussion.  If you don't find this discussion of value, or you're not comfortable discussing the topic, feel free to not participate.



You may not be a troll, but my wife is.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Oct 8, 2015)

yeggous said:


> You may not be a troll, but my wife is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


Does she live under a bridge and eat goats?


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 8, 2015)




----------



## Newpylong (Oct 8, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Making personal insults


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2015)

Newpylong said:


>



I try to avoid insulting someone unless they really deserve it - not to stifle discussions.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2015)

Then you need to"try" A LOT harder


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Then you need to"try" A LOT harder



He does not know any better....He cant help himself!


----------



## wtcobb (Oct 8, 2015)

I've been following this hilarity, but for the official word:

_UPDATED: Oct. 8, 2015_ World Cup ski racing is coming back to New England in 2016. The U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association, along with Powdr Corp., proposed an Audi FIS Alpine Ski World Cup at Killington, Vt. during fall meetings of the International Ski Federation (FIS) in Zurich, and the event was approved.

http://www.snocountry.com/en/news/entry/fis-women-s-alpine-world-cup-coming-to-killington-in-2016


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I try to avoid insulting someone unless they really deserve it - not to stifle discussions.



This might be the biggest piece of bullshit I have heard in a LONG time.  It's one thing to be a dick, but to not have the balls to own up to it is pathetic and spineless.

If this is "trying", I'd hate to see what it looks like when you don't try.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This might be the biggest piece of bullshit I have heard in a LONG time.  It's one thing to be a dick, but to not have the balls to own up to it is pathetic and spineless.
> 
> If this is "trying", I'd hate to see what it looks like when you don't try.



You cant fix Ignorant and Stupid.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> This might be the biggest piece of bullshit I have heard in a LONG time.  It's one thing to be a dick, but to not have the balls to own up to it is pathetic and spineless.
> 
> If this is "trying", I'd hate to see what it looks like when you don't try.



I'm a nice person actually. But I think that in this case, you have a problem with people like myself - who happen to be smarter, better informed, wealthier, better looking, and a far better skier than you - who hold different opinions than you.  But I can't do anything about that.


----------



## Savemeasammy (Oct 8, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I'm a nice person actually. But I think that in this case, you have a problem with people like myself - who happen to be smarter, better informed, wealther, better looking, and a far better skier than you - who hold different opinions than you.  But I can't do anything about that.



You forgot "modest".   No big deal though.  With that many good qualities, it's hard to keep track of them all. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 8, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> I'm a nice person actually. But I think that in this case, you have a problem with people like myself - who happen to be *smarter*, better informed, *wealther*, better looking, and a far better skier than you - who hold different opinions than you.  But I can't do anything about that.



Smarter?????  You couldn't even make it past three words before you screwed up.


----------



## marcski (Oct 8, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Well that's good, because I'm certainly not a troll.  I'm just an opinionated person that likes to debate on the internet.  Making personal insults and labeling someone a troll is just a way to stifle free discussion.  If you don't find this discussion of value, or you're not comfortable discussing the topic, feel free to not participate.



You have a very selective memory. How many times in how many threads have you used your (in)famous line....: 

"You're an idiot".

That really encourages "free discussion".


----------



## Tin (Oct 8, 2015)

This is going to be a complete disaster.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 8, 2015)

See? Never said I was a good speller.  Some people are so judgmental.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 8, 2015)

Tin said:


> This is going to be a complete disaster.



This thread already is....


----------



## Not Sure (Oct 8, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Smarter?????  You couldn't even make it past three words before you screwed up.



Actually he didn't misspell it ,he was just being "Scotty Sensitive"


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 8, 2015)

Does anyone really care?

If you do then you have problems.


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Then you need to"try" A LOT harder


Why do I find this hypocritical?


----------



## JimG. (Oct 8, 2015)

It's official!

Ski season is here.


----------



## ss20 (Oct 8, 2015)

JimG. said:


> It's official!
> 
> Ski season is _almost_ here.



Fixed it.

This is horny season.  We're all itching to get out there.


----------



## deadheadskier (Oct 8, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Why do I find this hypocritical?



Does anyone really care what you think?

If they do, they have problems


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Does anyone really care what you think?
> 
> If they do, they have problems


Now that's what I'm talkin about..:-D

Good job.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 9, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Does anyone really care what you think?
> 
> If they do, they have problems



Fair and balanced moderation, Alpinezone style


----------



## thetrailboss (Oct 9, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> I've been following this hilarity, but for the official word:
> 
> _UPDATED: Oct. 8, 2015_ World Cup ski racing is coming back to New England in 2016. The U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association, along with Powdr Corp., proposed an Audi FIS Alpine Ski World Cup at Killington, Vt. during fall meetings of the International Ski Federation (FIS) in Zurich, and the event was approved.
> 
> http://www.snocountry.com/en/news/entry/fis-women-s-alpine-world-cup-coming-to-killington-in-2016



Thanks. Was going to say that there's been a lot of great media coverage.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 10, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Now that's what I'm talkin about..:-D
> 
> Good job.





Highway Star said:


> Fair and balanced moderation, Alpinezone style




Ya think?


----------



## manhattanskier (Oct 12, 2015)

LOL love this. Glad I was not crazy remembering skiing Superstar every November. You got me HS, if you only ski part of a trail, it never happened, it was closed the whole time. The tree fell and it really did not make a sound, HS answered the age old question.


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 12, 2015)

manhattanskier said:


> LOL love this. Glad I was not crazy remembering skiing Superstar every November. You got me HS, if you only ski part of a trail, it never happened, it was closed the whole time. The tree fell and it really did not make a sound, HS answered the age old question.



As I said, LOWER SUPERSTAR IS (ALMOST) NEVER OPEN IN NOVEMBER. THUS, BY DEFINITION, "SUPERSTAR TRAIL" IS NOT OPEN IN NOVEMEBER.  ESPECIALLY FOR WORLD CUP RACING.  UPPER SUPERSTAR IS NOT OPEN ALL THE TIME IN NOVEMEBER EITHER.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Oct 12, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> As I said, LOWER SUPERSTAR IS (ALMOST) NEVER OPEN IN NOVEMBER. THUS, BY DEFINITION, "SUPERSTAR TRAIL" IS NOT OPEN IN NOVEMEBER.  ESPECIALLY FOR WORLD CUP RACING.  UPPER SUPERSTAR IS NOT OPEN ALL THE TIME IN NOVEMEBER EITHER.



So by using this analogy, there are many years when Killington does not open up, and the rest of the years they don't open till some tome in January.  If every trail on the mtn isn't open, neither is Killington!!


----------



## manhattanskier (Oct 12, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> As I said, LOWER SUPERSTAR IS (ALMOST) NEVER OPEN IN NOVEMBER. THUS, BY DEFINITION, "SUPERSTAR TRAIL" IS NOT OPEN IN NOVEMEBER.  ESPECIALLY FOR WORLD CUP RACING.  UPPER SUPERSTAR IS NOT OPEN ALL THE TIME IN NOVEMEBER EITHER.



Got it!!! Lower superstar opens in November but since the headwall and middle portion do not open it doesn't count, right??? Wait, please help me Highwaystar, you are my only hope understanding if a trail is open! I just can't figure it out!


----------



## Highway Star (Oct 12, 2015)

Real strong analysis here folks.  Not. Superstar trail has three sections, it is not open (fully open) until all three are open.

Lower Superstar is steep, wide and rocky.  They never get it open in November.  Let alone by Nov 20th - target date for course prep.


----------



## manhattanskier (Oct 12, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Real strong analysis here folks.  Not. Superstar trail has three sections, it is not open (fully open) until all three are open.
> 
> Lower Superstar is steep, wide and rocky.  They never get it open in November.  Let alone by Nov 20th - target date for course prep.



Without you, who would keep this forum in line? ;-)


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 12, 2015)

Back to the story at hand folks...


----------



## steamboat1 (Oct 12, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Real strong analysis here folks.  Not. Superstar trail has three sections, it is not open (fully open) until all three are open.


So I guess when they open upper East Fall this Oct/Nov along with Rime & Reason it won't really be open.

Brilliant!!!!


----------



## manhattanskier (Oct 12, 2015)

Highway Star said:


> Real strong analysis here folks.  Not. Superstar trail has three sections, it is not open (fully open) until all three are open.
> 
> Lower Superstar is steep, wide and rocky.  They never get it open in November.  Let alone by Nov 20th - target date for course prep.



How Highway Star feels when he figured out that Superstar has never been open in November: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mjtgdWd67Q


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 12, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> So I guess when they open upper East Fall this Oct/Nov along with Rime & Reason it won't really be open.
> 
> Brilliant!!!!




Must be extreme Right Wing Logic! Lol...


----------



## Highway Star (Jun 29, 2016)

BUMP.  



Official estimate is that it will take 144 hours of snowmaking for this, in November.  Sounds like the FIS is requiring a bit more than 18 inches.  Just like yo mama.


http://www.skiracing.com/premium/killington-prepares-to-kill-it-on-the-world-cup-circuit


----------



## Newpylong (Jun 29, 2016)

144 non-marginal hours, even if non-consecutive is a lot, but if anyone can do it they can.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 29, 2016)

6 non-consecutive days (I'm guessing so it can drain, set up, be groomed out, and set up again for the next layer) by the end of November... I'm thinking it's not really going to be that big a problem, and probably going to be pretty impressive to watch.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 29, 2016)

Also sounds like several other resorts are looking into stepping up to provide practice slopes ahead of the race. Stowe, Sugarbush, and Burke. Getting a good strip of snow set on Lower Warren's Way for Mikaela to practice on shouldn't be too hard .


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 29, 2016)

> Vermont’s Killington Resort, the largest ski and snowboard destination in Eastern North America, announced that tickets for the 2016 Audi FIS Ski World Cup will go on sale Tuesday, July 5 at 8:00 a.m. ET at www.killington.com.
> 
> Taking place November 26-27, Killington will host the first Alpine World Cup event in the eastern US in 25 years. The World Cup event will include the women’s giant slalom and slalom races and is expected to bring U.S. Ski Team superstars Julia Mancuso, Mikaela Shiffrin and Lindsey Vonn to compete against the best women’s technical alpine skiers in the world.
> 
> ...


..


----------



## fbrissette (Jun 29, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


> Also sounds like several other resorts are looking into stepping up to provide practice slopes ahead of the race. Stowe, Sugarbush, and Burke. Getting a good strip of snow set on Lower Warren's Way for Mikaela to practice on shouldn't be too hard .



Given that the women will be racing in Austria and Finland the weeks before and heading to Lake Louise after, I doubt we will see Mikaela doing much practising in New England.


----------



## dlague (Jun 29, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> ..



Well that will make things interesting!  Thanksgiving Weekend can often be a shit show with lower Bunny Buster now add the race event to attract more people perfect.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 29, 2016)

dlague said:


> Well that will make things interesting!  Thanksgiving Weekend can often be a shit show with lower Bunny Buster now add the race event to attract more people perfect.


I think there will be less people actually skiing that weekend not more.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 29, 2016)

I'm convinced FIS is self-destructive.   This is the ultimate gamble in ski event risk-taking.


----------



## benski (Jun 29, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I think there will be less people actually skiing that weekend not more.



But the goal is to have more people not more space to spread out. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## doublediamond (Jun 29, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm convinced FIS is self-destructive.   This is the ultimate gamble in ski event risk-taking.



Why?  The vast majority of seasons Superstar Quad is open by Thanksgiving.  And USSA is providing rental air compressors dedicated to Superstar and Skylark


----------



## Jully (Jun 29, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm convinced FIS is self-destructive.   This is the ultimate gamble in ski event risk-taking.



There's always SnowFlex! 

Is anyone planning on going to this? Or at least ski that day and stop by?


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 29, 2016)

benski said:


> But the goal is to have more people not more space to spread out.


Good luck finding a parking spot. K-1 lot will be sold out at 20 bucks a pop. Maybe you could take the shuttle up from Ramshead/Snowshed. Good luck with that. Maybe, just maybe they'll have Caper open so you could take Ramhead 4 over to Snowdon 4 to get to North Ridge. I wouldn't count on it.


----------



## dlague (Jun 29, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Good luck finding a parking spot. K-1 lot will be sold out at 20 bucks a pop. Maybe you could take the shuttle up from Ramshead/Snowshed. Good luck with that. Maybe, just maybe they'll have Caper open so you could take Ramhead 4 over to Snowdon 4 to get to North Ridge. I wouldn't count on it.



That too!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 29, 2016)

dlague said:


> That too!


I really couldn't care less. I won't be anywhere near that place Turkey weekend. Doubt I'll watch the event on TV either. Maybe I'll get to see reruns in the Peak Lodge while sipping a Long Trail in Jan.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Jun 30, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> I really couldn't care less. I won't be anywhere near that place Turkey weekend. Doubt I'll watch the event on TV either. Maybe I'll get to see reruns in the Peak Lodge while sipping a Long Trail in Jan.


----------



## Tin (Jun 30, 2016)

Highway Star said:


> BUMP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## machski (Jun 30, 2016)

Here's my guess at this.  I would bet that the terrain expansion will be a bit different this year in that they will push from North Ridge down through Snowdon and push to link and TTB on Rams Head very early on.  They will likely prep an upper link to SS if conditions allow, but likely limit that travel til after the race.  Of course, if we have a great start to the season, they might have all types of options.  Regardless, I think if they do this right, there will be plenty of snow for all.  Parking, well that's another Beast all together.  Best bet would be to get Bear lot in play somehow.  Possibly could use Skyeship base as well with up/download possibly as well.


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 30, 2016)

from_the_NEK said:


>


I'm not hating on the event. Actually think it's great for Killington & all of New England for that matter. I'm just adverse to mob scenes & personally have no interest in being there for this event. Hardly ever watch ski racing on TV so why should I for this.


----------



## mister moose (Jun 30, 2016)

Jully said:


> Is anyone planning on going to this? Or at least ski that day and stop by?



Plans at this point is to ski in the am and watch in the pm.  Shuttle in from Snowshed.  Having seen the modest crowd for the Dew Tour, I'm not expecting shuttle in from Pico level crowds.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 30, 2016)

Jully said:


> Is anyone planning on going to this? Or at least ski that day and stop by?



100% on my families radar!  Given that the GS on Saturday happens to fall on my birthday,  I'd really enjoy watching one of the US Women win on home snow as a nice birthday present! :flag:


----------



## Smellytele (Jul 5, 2016)

Not going near the place but it could be good the following weekend if they blow a shit load of snow for this.


----------



## drjeff (Jul 5, 2016)

Killington announced this afternoon that all the VIP tickets and bleacher tickets have sold out as of today! They said they may add more bleachers, but not 100% sure as of yet

Guess the interest is there for sure!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 5, 2016)

Ahh shucks I missed out.


----------



## machski (Jul 5, 2016)

Glad to hear it!!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 5, 2016)

You & me both.


----------



## doublediamond (Jul 5, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Not going near the place but it could be good the following weekend if they blow a shit load of snow for this.



Not really.  They race an basically ice to prevent rutting.  Far wetter than normal manmade as they inject water and throw on fertilizer to melt and refreeze the snow.  Will provide a great hard base to the glacier though.


----------



## Puck it (Jul 6, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> Not really.  They race an basically ice to prevent rutting.  Far wetter than normal manmade as they inject water and throw on fertilizer to melt and refreeze the snow.  Will provide a great hard base to the glacier though.


Salt not fertilizer.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jul 6, 2016)

Puck it said:


> Salt not fertilizer.



Its ice fertilizer.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 6, 2016)

What is ice fertilizer?


----------



## Abubob (Jul 6, 2016)

I found this interesting. Could it be that they're trying not to harm the vegetation with salt? As found in http://www.bountifulgardencenter.com/uploads/IceMelters.pdf


> Another category of ice melters is garden fertilizer.Fertilizers often are assumed to be safe forplants and turf because they are fertilizers. However, the application rates for fertilizers used as icemelters are much higher than the rates for normal feeding. As a general rule, fertilizers are usually safer for plants, but some fertilizers can be more damaging to concrete than salt is.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 6, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> *Why? * The vast majority of seasons Superstar Quad is open by Thanksgiving.  And USSA is providing rental air compressors dedicated to Superstar and Skylark



Because there's a difference between "technically being able to hold an event with horrendous conditions" and "holding an event with average to optimal conditions", and November in Central Vermont is a huge roll-of-the-dice that increases the odds of the former possibly occurring.   

Seems like a completely unnecessary risk to me.   Hopefully it's a cold November and all goes off without a hitch, but I can hear the athletes complaining already.


----------



## machski (Jul 6, 2016)

BenedictGomez said:


> Because there's a difference between "technically being able to hold an event with horrendous conditions" and "holding an event with average to optimal conditions", and November in Central Vermont is a huge roll-of-the-dice that increases the odds of the former possibly occurring.
> 
> Seems like a completely unnecessary risk to me.   Hopefully it's a cold November and all goes off without a hitch, but I can hear the athletes complaining already.



Because FIS did not offer another date.  So is this unnecessary?  If you (or USSA) wants to bring FIS world cup racing back to New England, then yes this risk is necessary.  You sound like Highway Star with this post.  But given this past season, even early February or March would have been a risk of cancellation due to weather.

This is great to have this level of comp back in New England.  Killington, Powdr, USSA and FIS all know the early season weather risks.  But SS has the snowmaking infrastructure in place to make this a realistic endeavor.  And other than the actual race weekend impediment, I don't think public skiing will suffer much at all at Killington.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Jul 7, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> What is ice fertilizer?



A wise crack.The salt "fertilizes" the snow into ice.


----------



## Abubob (Jul 7, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> A wise crack.The salt "fertilizes" the snow into ice.


From what I've read it's actually fertilizer - not salt.

Notice post #'s 18, 20 and 21.
http://www.epicski.com/t/82036/how-why-does-salting-a-race-course-work


----------



## slatham (Jul 7, 2016)

Let's not forget that FIS events world-wide are often negatively impacted and even cancelled due to weather issues. It's the nature of the beast. Even mid-winter Alps events have been cancelled due to lack of snow.


----------



## skifree (Jul 7, 2016)

slatham said:


> Let's not forget that FIS events world-wide are often negatively impacted and even cancelled due to weather issues. It's the nature of the beast. Even mid-winter Alps events have been cancelled due to lack of snow.



or too much snow


----------



## andrec10 (Jul 7, 2016)

Abubob said:


> From what I've read it's actually fertilizer - not salt.
> 
> Notice post #'s 18, 20 and 21.
> http://www.epicski.com/t/82036/how-why-does-salting-a-race-course-work



Its solidified cow piss!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jul 7, 2016)

andrec10 said:


> Its solidified cow piss!


Can it power the gondola?


----------



## yeggous (Jul 11, 2016)

I know salting race courses is standard procedure, but that can't be good come spring.

P.S. it is too quiet here in summer. Someone please entertain me. I am at Logan waiting for a flight. Bueller?


----------



## Abubob (Jul 11, 2016)

andrec10 said:


> Its solidified cow piss!


How is that collected exactly?


:roll:


On second thought I don't wanna know.


----------



## dlague (Jul 11, 2016)

Abubob said:


> How is that collected exactly?
> 
> 
> :roll:
> ...



by hand!


----------



## Abubob (Jul 12, 2016)

dlague said:


> by hand!


uke:


----------



## bigbog (Jul 12, 2016)

slatham said:


> Let's not forget that FIS events world-wide are often negatively impacted and even cancelled due to weather issues. It's the nature of the beast. Even mid-winter Alps events have been cancelled due to lack of snow.



Cancelled and shortened(2015 Kitzbuhl's Hannenkam(sp?))  ..ended up being run like ?? not quite a half? of the course's true length, and with lousy, soft snow...


----------



## steamboat1 (Sep 22, 2016)

Entertainment & schedule: http://www.killington.com/company/media/pressrelease.html?pressrelease=pressrelease47


----------



## Jcb890 (Sep 22, 2016)

steamboat1 said:


> Entertainment & schedule: http://www.killington.com/company/media/pressrelease.html?pressrelease=pressrelease47



Pretty solid commercial.  :lol:


----------



## doublediamond (Sep 25, 2016)

yeggous said:


> I know salting race courses is standard procedure, but that can't be good come spring.



It's 'salt' in the chemistry sense.  It is usually it's ammonium nitrate, as in fertilizer.  But that may vary dependent on forecasted conditions.

They also will inject water into the snow.  It's a long pipe with holes on the bottom, hooked up to the snowmaking hydrants.  One operator on each end to control the bar.  One operator has a valve that they open and close briefly, then move down the hill a foot or so and repeat.


----------



## benski (Sep 25, 2016)

doublediamond said:


> They also will inject water into the snow.  It's a long pipe with holes on the bottom, hooked up to the snowmaking hydrants.  One operator on each end to control the bar.  One operator has a valve that they open and close briefly, then move down the hill a foot or so and repeat.



Ice! Thats what New England need more of.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 25, 2016)

benski said:


> Ice! Thats what New England need more of.


----------



## Highway Star (Sep 26, 2016)

Latest K-zone rumor is that they're going to try to get Snowshed online to provide ski-in-out access to the Grand.

With all the hype surrounding this, it's going to be really disappointing when it gets rained out.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 25, 2017)

Killington is the front runner to host a race in November.  Aspen is out.  
http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/174686


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2017)

Too much blow torch in Colorado apparently

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dlague (Mar 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Too much blow torch in Colorado apparently
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


Yup that must be it!  Darn slow double is creating too much heat.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Too much blow torch in Colorado apparently
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Nope. SAM reported that the FIS was PISSED that Aspen has not spent any money upgrading the race venue or lifts. 

http://saminfo.com/headline-news/8843-fis-pulls-aspen-from-world-cup-calendar


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2017)

Just as long as they don't ever replace Ruthie's chair.  That thing is a classic

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 25, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Just as long as they don't ever replace Ruthie's chair.  That thing is a classic
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



That's the one that the FIS bitched about I think. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 25, 2017)

I don't believe so. The article states replacing a 45 year old double. Ruthie's went in during the 90s. It's just really unique because it's a detachable double chair, but with chairs the size of a triple.  I don't really remember any of the other lifts at Aspen other than the gondola

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I don't believe so. The article states replacing a 45 year old double. Ruthie's went in during the 90s. It's just really unique because it's a detachable double chair, but with chairs the size of a triple.  I don't really remember any of the other lifts at Aspen other than the gondola
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Oh OK.  It's the OTHER fixed double.  Ruthie's is like Sunnyside at Alta.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone


----------



## doublediamond (Mar 27, 2017)

It has nothing to do with the lift. It has everything to do that FIS is pissed Aspen put them up in an abandoned lodge for racer services at the WC Finals this year.

"The state of Ruthie’s restaurant, which has been shuttered for years but was reopened to provide racer support services for this event, was also noted by Lewis as a deficiency."

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/174686


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm sure that the crowd Killington drew didn't hurt.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 27, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I'm sure that the crowd Killington drew didn't hurt.


Did I read that correctly Aspen only attracted 5,000 people while Killington brought in 30,000 and other stops 20,000?


----------



## doublediamond (Mar 27, 2017)

The Killington races were the most attended in Ladies WC history other than Finals.  IIRC it was ~16k for the GS on Saturday and ~14k for the SL on Sunday.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 28, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Did I read that correctly Aspen only attracted 5,000 people while Killington brought in 30,000 and other stops 20,000?



Doesn't surprise me because not many "day trippers" from any metro areas going to Aspen.


----------



## machski (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Doesn't surprise me because not many "day trippers" from any metro areas going to Aspen.


Yet they moved the X games to Aspen (well, Tiehack, but same thing basically) rather than Mount Snow.  Wonder if that will move east again?

How was the turnout at Squaw this year?

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## drjeff (Mar 28, 2017)

machski said:


> Yet they moved the X games to Aspen (well, Tiehack, but same thing basically) rather than Mount Snow.  Wonder if that will move east again?
> 
> How was the turnout at Squaw this year?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Doubt they'll move the X games from Aspen anytime soon.  Part of the Aspen appeal is the "coolness" factor, and for some making the decisions about where to host such and such an event, Aspen is full of the "beautiful people" and the chic restaurants and resort amenities that many decision makers like.

Heck, I'm sure if it was feasible. the FIS would love to hold that November race at say Mountain Creek or whatever the current name of the other area near MC that was brought back to life as a high level racing center this past season, as then all of the big whigs who run the FIS could partake in all of the glitz that New York City has to offer


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2017)

But is the "beautiful people" crowd really the X-Games crowd?  I guess times change.


----------



## dlague (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Doesn't surprise me because not many "day trippers" from any metro areas going to Aspen.


Very true - that is a hike from the I-25 corridor.  Which is where Ft Collins, Boulder, Denver, Colorado Springs and Pueblo are.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> *Doesn't surprise me* because not many "day trippers" from any metro areas going to Aspen.



Surprised the hades out of me, because I had no idea ski racing would attract anywhere near that kind of interest in America.

That said, I do wonder what the crowd would be if they held it 5 years in a row (i.e. would there be a big dropoff once novelty fades).


----------



## Jully (Mar 28, 2017)

I almost certainly think there will be a drop off. But I'd still expect over 6000 in 5 years.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 28, 2017)

Jully said:


> I almost certainly think there will be a drop off. But I'd still expect over 6000 in 5 years.



With it so early in the season people are not worried about missing a ski day and are just there to enjoy the event. Kind of like going to see a Warren Miller movie in Nov. But I do think there would be a drop off as well. What I wasn't surprised by was that less people went to see a race in Aspen then other places not the actual numbers.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 28, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> With it so early in the season people are not worried about missing a ski day and are just there to enjoy the event. Kind of like going to see a Warren Miller movie in Nov. But I do think there would be a drop off as well. What I wasn't surprised by was that less people went to see a race in Aspen then other places not the actual numbers.


.
As long as the US Ski Team has some marquee names, and if the FIS chooses to keep Killington in the November rotation (and Killington wants to keep hosting a race) while maybe not a 30,000 weekend attendance total in 5 yrs, I'd expect stronger numbers than any other US host venue to date.  

VT has a large base of junior racers (there were about 1000 of them in a pre-race parade before Saturday's GS this past November), and that often translates into enthusiastic ski racing families who will turn out to see truly elite level racing up close and in person - add in the proximity of the NY, NH, ME, and the MA/CT/RI youth race programs (heck I even saw some kids at last November's world cup race with team jackets from resorts in North Carolina and West Virgina, so the base of current and future alpine racing fans is solid in the Northeast.

And as the majority of those who were there seem to agree upon, heck it was an impressive event to see live!

Lastly, has anyone heard from Highwaystar since the WC races were a success at Killington???


----------



## Glenn (Mar 28, 2017)

Whatever happened to HS? Haven't seen him post for some time.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 28, 2017)

Glenn said:


> Whatever happened to HS? Haven't seen him post for some time.



He went MIA just about the same time that in spite of his predictions of a massive failure by Killington to be able to pull off making enough snow to host a worldcup race in November, and then that maybe few thousand people tops would show up for the entire weekend, that the event was a great success.....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 28, 2017)

drjeff said:


> He went MIA just about the same time that in spite of his predictions of a massive failure by Killington to be able to pull off making enough snow to host a worldcup race in November, and then that maybe few thousand people tops would show up for the entire weekend, that the event was a great success.....



To be fair, I think the first part of that equation is "FIS Russian roulette", were they to make this an every year event, eventually one's going to be cancelled before too long.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 28, 2017)

After being completely incorrect about predicting that Killington would fail at hosting a race, he (aka Damian Sanders) has since isolated himself in TGR's Political Asshattery sub-forum.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 28, 2017)

Highway Star said:


> Latest K-zone rumor is that they're going to try to get Snowshed online to provide ski-in-out access to the Grand.
> 
> With all the hype surrounding this, it's going to be really disappointing when it gets rained out.



Quoting for posterity.  So glad K pulled this off and this asshat was completely and utterly wrong...  WHAT AN IDIOT!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 28, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> After being completely incorrect about predicting that Killington would fail at hosting a race, he (aka Damian Sanders) has since isolated himself in TGR's Political Asshattery sub-forum.



...and supposedly all his posts on Kzone now have to be Mod approved.


----------



## Jully (Mar 28, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> ...and supposedly all his posts on Kzone now have to be Mod approved.



I don't believe that...


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 28, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> ...and supposedly all his posts on Kzone now have to be Mod approved.


Is that true?

He has popped in at least once that I can remember.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 28, 2017)

Jully said:


> I don't believe that...



Says so himself...

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42706


----------



## Jully (Mar 28, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Says so himself...
> 
> http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42706



HAH I stand corrected. Unless he is jerking everyone around, but that sounds unlikely if he has stopped posting with the same frequency and gusto on Kzone.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 28, 2017)

He has and its been great.  Hopefully his treatment for his mental health issues are going well.


----------



## dlague (Mar 28, 2017)

I do think that the FIS race we a bit of a novelty at calling ton 

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## dlague (Mar 28, 2017)

dlague said:


> I do think that the FIS race was a bit of a novelty at killington.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app





Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## skiur (Mar 29, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> He has and its been great.  Hopefully his treatment for his mental health issues are going well.



I disagree, kzone has gotten boring without HS over there.  Every message board needs an asshole to keep things exciting, kzone, and over here as well has gotten just a little more boring since he hasnt been posting much.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 29, 2017)

HS is where Kzone draws the line?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 29, 2017)

It was certainly the volume of his shenanigans, not the tone, that likely got him in mod approval.

His threads always turned to the same 3or 4 people fighting with each other over there so it wasn't even remotely decent discussion.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 29, 2017)

Anyone else notice that not only HS but also steamboat1 has been missing the same time period?

Coincidence?


----------



## skiur (Mar 29, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> HS is where Kzone draws the line?



Nope, the dis is where the first line was drawn


----------



## skiur (Mar 29, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Anyone else notice that not only HS but also steamboat1 has been missing the same time period?
> 
> Coincidence?



I have met both of them and they are definitely separate people.


----------



## ss20 (Apr 3, 2017)

It's back for Thanksgiving weekend 2017 and 2018!!!  Good for the hill!

http://mountaintimes.info/world-cup-will-return/


----------



## slatham (Apr 3, 2017)

Fantastic. Saw the Sunday slalom and hope to go back again this year - hopefully with my youngest who missed last year!!


----------



## Jully (Apr 3, 2017)

$1.2 million event cost. WOW.


----------



## andrec10 (Apr 3, 2017)

Hotel room booked already!


----------



## andrec10 (Apr 3, 2017)

Jully said:


> $1.2 million event cost. WOW.



FIS paid for most of this! They even paid for snowmaking....


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 4, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> FIS paid for most of this! They even paid for snowmaking....






> An Solimano told town officials, the cost to the resort for last year’s  event was more than $2.5 million. That figure was offset by $1.3 million  in revenue, most of which came from sponsors. The net cost to the  resort, he added, was $1.2 million.



New South Ridge Quad finally coming too... eventually!

https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/03/kil...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-0817a1cb96-405602665


----------



## Jully (Apr 4, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> New South Ridge Quad finally coming too... eventually!
> 
> https://vtdigger.org/2017/04/03/kil...il&utm_term=0_dc3c5486db-0817a1cb96-405602665



So does that include any offset by the FIS? That statement from Mike sure doesn't seem like the FIS footed that bill.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 4, 2017)

Good for K and NE skiing for sure!


----------



## benski (Apr 4, 2017)

Wasn't it already stated FIS was paying for the snowmaking for the event. That definitely greatly reduces the cost of building the glacier.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Apr 5, 2017)

It read to me that it still cost K 1.2 million


----------



## mriceyman (Apr 6, 2017)

Big time exposure may be well worth it for the future of the resort. Killington was mentioned about a thousand times in the 2 day broadcast. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## from_the_NEK (Apr 6, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Big time exposure may be well worth it for the future of the resort. Killington was mentioned about a thousand times in the 2 day broadcast.



I also noticed Killington was mentioned quite a few times at the end of the season as well during the Squaw Valley and Aspen races as the place "where the season kicked off". It was usually in reference to Shiffrin's season where she won the opening race in Killington. IMO, as long as Shiffrin's standing as FIS's best female stands, I think the Killington race will remain on the schedule. She has a huge contingent of fans here on the east coast.


----------



## doublediamond (Apr 6, 2017)

from_the_NEK said:


> It was usually in reference to Shiffrin's season where she won the opening race in Killington.



What?

She neither won the opening race (GS Sölden 10/22) nor the opening Killington race (GS 11/26).


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Apr 6, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> What?
> 
> She neither won the opening race (GS Sölden 10/22) nor the opening Killington race (GS 11/26).



She won the Ladies' Slalom 11/27

5th in the GS the day before.

She DID win the 2nd event, and took second place in the season opener. 

Anyway, yes... the fan base is big right now.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Apr 6, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> It read to me that it still cost K 1.2 million



That's really not a big deal.

   Lets conservatively say they have a 20% drop-off in attendance due to novelty wearing off etc.. and they draw 24,000 folks.   Well, that's only $50 in ancillary revenue you have to pull in per head (plus COGS obviously) to break even. 

  And if you come $200,000 short of breaking even, well, given Killington's enormous marketing budget, that's probably $200,000 better spent then they could ever dream of spending on silly banner adds I'll never click on, and bic pens I'll never use.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Apr 6, 2017)

Just so people are aware, the cost to Killington was beyond just snow making.  They had to house and feed the race teams and staff, plus all of the other things such as the "village" at the bottom of SuperStar.   I'm sure FIS kicks in some money, but there is a lot of expenses for something like this.

That being said its great they did a good enough job that FIS was confident to give them 2 more opportunities.


----------



## skiur (Apr 6, 2017)

You can't put a price on the amount of free advertising that Killington got from the world cup.


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Big time exposure may be well worth it for the future of the resort. Killington was mentioned about a thousand times in the 2 day broadcast.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



+ 1


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## thetrailboss (Apr 6, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Just so people are aware, the cost to Killington was beyond just snow making.  They had to house and feed the race teams and staff, plus all of the other things such as the "village" at the bottom of SuperStar.   I'm sure FIS kicks in some money, but there is a lot of expenses for something like this.
> 
> That being said its great they did a good enough job that FIS was confident to give them 2 more opportunities.



...and the FIS implied that Killington is better than Aspen. Think about that.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## drjeff (Apr 6, 2017)

I know all of my friends (about 10 families) who went last year are already planning on returning, and how we can improve upon our experience (think big tailgate party in the preferred parking KBL lots) and multiple other ski racing families who our kids race with at Mount Snow, but didn't go last year, want to go to the races this Thanksgiving weekend after hearing what a great time all of us that went had!

If you went, I think you'd be thinking that there won't be much drop off in attendance for this year based on how cool an event it was to experience live!

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Apr 6, 2017)

Thinking about what drjeff said is interesting. Almost makes me wonder if you could see an INCREASE in attendance next year with people that missed out this year. I certainly wouldn't be surprised. I could easily see attendance being steady or slightly increasing for at least the next one or two years. Maybe if they kept hosting it after that you'd start to see some decrease in attendance. It will be cool to see what happens. I'd love to see K continue to be a success for hosting this event.


----------



## VTKilarney (Oct 30, 2017)

At what point does the warm weather result in a meaningful risk that the event will be cancelled?  Have we hit the point yet where the weather in November is going to have to be just right in order to pull this off?


----------



## SkiMom80 (Oct 30, 2017)

My guess is they need a week to blow snow and be ready for the race.  Less if they REALLY rush it.  The race will go on...IMO the bigger question is whether anything else will be open on the mountain???


----------



## Newpylong (Oct 30, 2017)

I woudn't count on it. There are already grumblings in the region of pulling the plug based on the 30 Day outlook.

Imho I don't see it happening.


----------



## slatham (Oct 30, 2017)

My understanding is the course is inspected, and a go/no-go decision is made, one week prior to the event. So November 17th or 18th is the relevant time frame. 

I also understand that they need 72 hours of solid snowmaking to get Superstar ready. Obviously more time is needed if there is warm weather in between snowmaking windows, or between the window and the race.

So there is time.

On the other hand, the models have repeatedly forecasted cold that has not materialize as advertised, this week a case in point. 

But given the indications from the models, the broader forecast variables long-range forecasters use, and the seasonal drop it temps, I still believe they will pull this off.


----------



## mriceyman (Oct 31, 2017)

slatham said:


> My understanding is the course is inspected, and a go/no-go decision is made, one week prior to the event. So November 17th or 18th is the relevant time frame.
> 
> I also understand that they need 72 hours of solid snowmaking to get Superstar ready. Obviously more time is needed if there is warm weather in between snowmaking windows, or between the window and the race.
> 
> ...



Yep one week prior is inspection.. if course doesnt have enough snow it will be cancelled. Doesnt matter if its 5* the next 4 days and they can make all the snow they need. 1 week is the end all be all. Killington will get it done .. they just need a little help from ma nature


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2017)

slatham said:


> On the other hand, *the models have repeatedly forecasted cold that has not materialize as advertised*, this week a case in point.
> 
> But given the indications from the models, the broader forecast variables long-range forecasters use, and the seasonal drop it temps, I still believe they will pull this off.



That's not so.   The long-range outlook for October, and again for November, has been unseasonably warm.  Some transient cold shots, but overall warm.   This has been the rare occasion where the long-range models have performed decently, because they're often crap.


----------



## skiur (Oct 31, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Yep one week prior is inspection.. if course doesnt have enough snow it will be cancelled. Doesnt matter if its 5* the next 4 days and they can make all the snow they need. 1 week is the end all be all. Killington will get it done .. they just need a little help from ma nature
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Last year the course was not ready 1 week out.  At the time of inspection they needed a day or two more to get the course where it needed to be.  The forecast was for favorable snowmaking conditions all week so they passed inspection without the course ready.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2017)

To repeat my thoughts from 2014 or 2015 or whenever this was first proposed; scheduling ski events in November in Vermont is idiotic.  

Even if they pull this off, it will be interesting what marketers at Killington think of the optics from this race if every camera shot & photo  other than the man-made run is of grass & brown barren ground.  Worse if that man-made run is total slush & gloppy slop. 

Under such conditions, I could make a strong argument Killington would hurt itself more by having the race than by simply canceling the race, as "snowmaking capabilities" is one of the pillars Killington stakes its' reputation on.  Especially with the lesser-informed, casual skier class that comprise the masses.


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 31, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Yep one week prior is inspection.. if course doesnt have enough snow it will be cancelled. Doesnt matter if its 5* the next 4 days and they can make all the snow they need. 1 week is the end all be all. Killington will get it done .. they just need a little help from ma nature
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



That is incorrect.  The go/no-go decision is based on how much snow is on the ground and the upcoming weather forecast and snowmaking production abilities. There are times also where FIS bumps the go/no-go decision back to a later date.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 31, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> To repeat my thoughts from 2014 or 2015 or whenever this was first proposed; scheduling ski events in November in Vermont is idiotic.
> 
> Even if they pull this off, it will be interesting what marketers at Killington think of the optics from this race if every camera shot & photo  other than the man-made run is of grass & brown barren ground.  Worse if that man-made run is total slush & gloppy slop.
> 
> Under such conditions, I could make a strong argument Killington would hurt itself more by having the race than by simply canceling the race, as "snowmaking capabilities" is one of the pillars Killington stakes its' reputation on.  Especially with the lesser-informed, casual skier class that comprise the masses.



Unless the surface is rock solid and in good shape, FIS will cancel it. You wont see them racing on glop...


----------



## doublediamond (Oct 31, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> To repeat my thoughts from 2014 or 2015 or whenever this was first proposed; scheduling ski events in November in Vermont is idiotic.



Unless there is a MASSIVE reshuffle to the WC calendar including dumping a good number of races/hosts, there is NO WAY there will ever be USA/Canadian races outside of the Thanksgiving/1st weekend December time frame. North American hosts overall has a lot more snowmaking firepower than European hosts.

It has to be this time because of travel logistics between the continents.  The snowmaking abilities cement this calendar.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Oct 31, 2017)

world cup ski racing at killington in November is dumb stupid. last year they were dumb lucky.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> world cup ski racing at killington in November is dumb stupid. last year they were dumb lucky.



My guess is they can pull it off 3/5 of the time, but yes, it's dumb.  

It's like playing Russian Roulette with an FIS event.


----------



## slatham (Oct 31, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's not so.   The long-range outlook for October, and again for November, has been unseasonably warm.  Some transient cold shots, but overall warm.   This has been the rare occasion where the long-range models have performed decently, because they're often crap.



BG, I am referring to the GFS and Euro forecast models which go out 15 days and had shown cold coming in that did not fully materialize. You are (correctly) referring to long range climatology models that forecasted a warm October. But even in a period of "warmer" than average weather the NE can have productive periods of snowmaking.


----------



## Jully (Oct 31, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> Unless the surface is rock solid and in good shape, FIS will cancel it. You wont see them racing on glop...



Agreed. Luckily for Killington though, the snow produced in marginal temperatures is actually pretty good FIS snow though. I thought I remembered hearing last year that not as much prep was needed to firm up the snow as is usual because it was so dense already.


----------



## Jully (Oct 31, 2017)

mriceyman said:


> Yep one week prior is inspection.. if course doesnt have enough snow it will be cancelled. Doesnt matter if its 5* the next 4 days and they can make all the snow they need. 1 week is the end all be all. Killington will get it done .. they just need a little help from ma nature
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone





skiur said:


> Last year the course was not ready 1 week out.  At the time of inspection they needed a day or two more to get the course where it needed to be.  The forecast was for favorable snowmaking conditions all week so they passed inspection without the course ready.



Agreed. Like doublediamond also said, the course does not have to be 100% ready by inspection, but it has to be clear that they will be able to make it ready by the time of the race. Last year K was a good ways of the way there, and there was a clear window in the forecast that enabled them to wrap up the snowmaking a few days before the race.

If course inspection happens in the middle of a cold snap and K is like 50%-70% of the way there and there's another 2-4 days of solid temperatures ahead, the race will still happen. Not all doom and gloom on this year yet! I do have questions about the stability of this race at K moving forward though... even pushing it back 1 weekend would help a ton.


----------



## drjeff (Oct 31, 2017)

If anyone in the East can pull it off, It's Killington!

And given the success of last years event, and the decent chance after last weekend World Cup opener in Soelden, Austria, where Lindsey Vonn raced GS for the 1st time in about 20 months, the prospects of having both Shiffrin and Vonn racing infront a crowd that hopefully will be as big, if not bigger if Vonn is there, as last year, has to have Killington, the FIS, the USSA and VARA very excited and worth the risk of non cooperative weather.

As anyone who was actually there last year will tell you, once you got past the parking challenges, the actual race experience was such a cool thing to see and experience!  Can't wait to hopefully be watching it again live, weather permitting on November 25th! :flag: :flag: :flag:


----------



## ss20 (Oct 31, 2017)

It was pretty good marketing last year with snow flakes and a white ground through the weekend


----------



## BenedictGomez (Oct 31, 2017)

drjeff said:


> last weekend World Cup opener in Soelden, Austria



Watched that on TV; those were pretty horrible conditions too.   

Fun for the spectator in NASCAR fashion, but IMO somewhat dangerous for the skiers.


----------



## skiur (Oct 31, 2017)

drjeff said:


> If anyone in the East can pull it off, It's Killington!
> 
> And given the success of last years event, and the decent chance after last weekend World Cup opener in Soelden, Austria, where Lindsey Vonn raced GS for the 1st time in about 20 months, the prospects of having both Shiffrin and Vonn racing infront a crowd that hopefully will be as big, if not bigger if Vonn is there, as last year, has to have Killington, the FIS, the USSA and VARA very excited and worth the risk of non cooperative weather.
> 
> As anyone who was actually there last year will tell you, once you got past the parking challenges, the actual race experience was such a cool thing to see and experience!  Can't wait to hopefully be watching it again live, weather permitting on November 25th! :flag: :flag: :flag:



Vonn will not be competing in gs at Killington this year.

http://www.espn.com/olympics/skiing...ndsey-vonn-happy-raced-world-cup-giant-slalom


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Oct 31, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> scheduling ski events in November in Vermont is idiotic.
> 
> Even if they pull this off, it will be interesting what marketers at Killington think of the optics from this race if every camera shot & photo  other than the man-made run is of grass & brown barren ground.



I would say that have the man made whiteness and brown everywhere else actually HELPS Killington marketing. It shows what the mtn is capable of. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## JimG. (Oct 31, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I would say that have the man made whiteness and brown everywhere else actually HELPS Killington marketing. It shows what the mtn is capable of.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app



Or maybe there is a surprise 3' storm a week before the event.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Oct 31, 2017)

JimG. said:


> Or maybe there is a surprise 3' storm a week before the event.


That would always be a blessing. But K is touting there snowmaking with this event.

Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Nov 1, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> That would always be a blessing. But K is touting there snowmaking with this event.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


Actually, a 3' dump before the event would not be a blessing.  Racers don't like fresh powder and then Killington would have to figure out water injection to the course.  If it is just man made, they can control the water content during production to get the snow Rock solid for the race.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2017)

machski said:


> Actually, a 3' dump before the event would not be a blessing.  Racers don't like fresh powder and then Killington would have to figure out water injection to the course.  If it is just man made, they can control the water content during production to get the snow Rock solid for the race.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Wasn't soft and mushy last year by the end?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 1, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> I would say that have* the man made whiteness and brown everywhere else actually HELPS Killington marketing. *It shows what the mtn is capable of.



I disagree.

The average casual skier is not going to care what they're technically "capable of", they're going to visually see in a very direct and obvious way that conditions currently stink.  

And the average serious skier isn't enticed by a day of WROD, man-made snow, and limited terrain.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I disagree.
> 
> The average casual skier is not going to care what they're technically "capable of", they're going to visually see in a very direct and obvious way that conditions currently stink.
> 
> And the average serious skier isn't enticed by a day of WROD, man-made snow, and limited terrain.



The average casual skier won't be seeing the event either way for the most part.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 1, 2017)

machski said:


> Actually, a 3' dump before the event would not be a blessing.  Racers don't like fresh powder and then Killington would have to figure out water injection to the course.  If it is just man made, they can control the water content during production to get the snow Rock solid for the race.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



You're no fun.


----------



## machski (Nov 1, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Wasn't soft and mushy last year by the end?


I seem to recall the GS was mushy (I think that was day 1 IIRC).  Day 2 and the Slalom was firmer due to the temps dropping down.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## ss20 (Nov 1, 2017)

Temps look to be a non-issue starting Monday night going through indefinitely


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 1, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Temps look to be a non-issue starting Monday night going through indefinitely



Just in time!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 1, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Temps look to be a non-issue starting Monday night going through indefinitely



I see 40 for Tuesday at 3550'


----------



## ss20 (Nov 1, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> I see 40 for Tuesday at 3550'



Nights are all looking good.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 2, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Temps look to be a non-issue starting Monday night going through indefinitely



Dont know where you're getting that from.  Looks like plenty of 40s dispersed in there with wandering into the 30s or high 20s.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 2, 2017)

ss20 said:


> Temps look to be a non-issue starting Monday night going through indefinitely



Agree that the pattern changing event looks to be happening!

The crew I'm going with the to race have even started to loosely put together a tailgating menu as a sign of our optimism of it happening!


----------



## tumbler (Nov 3, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Agree that the pattern changing event looks to be happening!
> 
> The crew I'm going with the to race have even started to loosely put together a tailgating menu as a sign of our optimism of it happening!



1) Beer
2) Whiskey
3) Beer
4) Meat


----------



## drjeff (Nov 3, 2017)

tumbler said:


> 1) Beer
> 2) Whiskey
> 3) Beer
> 4) Meat



Substitute Vodka for Whiskey in #2 and yup, that's about the extent of our planning!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2017)

This is looking increasingly dicey. 

 How many straight days of <=32 temps would Killington need to pull this off - I imagine they'll relocate every dang gun they can to the race course, but would 5 or 6 days be enough?


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 3, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is looking increasingly dicey.
> 
> How many straight days of <=32 temps would Killington need to pull this off - I imagine they'll relocate every dang gun they can to the race course, but would 5 or 6 days be enough?



That would be enough!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> That would be enough!



Well that's good, maybe they'll be okay then.  

Cant really tell much past 10 days, but collectively the next 10 look meh, to bad, to good, to meh, to great, to bad.


----------



## Jully (Nov 3, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is looking increasingly dicey.
> 
> How many straight days of <=32 temps would Killington need to pull this off - I imagine they'll relocate every dang gun they can to the race course, but would 5 or 6 days be enough?



I've heard from a few people that its around 72 hours of snowmaking at ideal temps is what's needed. They won't get ideal temps, but a week of temperatures in the low 20s for 8-12 hours at night (and hopefully some continued production during the days) should get them pretty close at least.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 3, 2017)

I believe I read that they had 100 guns on SS last year and were still able to produce snow elsewhere on the mountain due to them bringing in separate compressors for SS. 

I hope they pull it off. I would be even more impressive if they did given he had they have been dealt so far this year.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 3, 2017)

5 days is enough time to make enough snow.

Look at NOAA's short-term climatology forecasts. 6-10 days and 8-14 days are both below average temperatures.  Come Tuesday there will be a long snap of cold weather. Just in time. Just like last year. No need to panic.

Even before WC came to K, in al but the warmest of falls, the Superstar pod usually opened only a week or so later than the WC is scheduled for.

They had something like 130 guns running last year while still making snow elsewhere on the mountain. They have since added 30 something new hydrants to Superstar.  Last year the compressor pads were full to the brim at both Bear and on Snowshed.  They were back to their old rental CFM amount but have much more efficient guns now. That means they can make a lot more snow.


----------



## ss20 (Nov 3, 2017)

All this BS'ing about them not being able to pull it off is going to become very irreverent in a week...Superstar is going to be buried in 2ft+ of snow by next Saturday.  The guns should come on Tuesday afternoon and not stop til Sunday or Monday.  Maybe some marginal afternoons but any questioning of the success of the event would be due to something crazy like a 3 day rain storm right before the event or 5+ days of record warmth.


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2017)

ss20 said:


> All this BS'ing about them not being able to pull it off is going to become very irreverent in a week...Superstar is going to be buried in 2ft+ of snow by next Saturday.  The guns should come on Tuesday afternoon and not stop til Sunday or Monday.  Maybe some marginal afternoons but any questioning of the success of the event would be due to something crazy like a 3 day rain storm right before the event or 5+ days of record warmth.


Next Friday maybe a little warm but Monday night to Thursday night look good for making snow.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 3, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Next Friday maybe a little warm but Monday night to Thursday night look good for making snow.



They also have to hope that these push / pull tug-of-wars between colder and warmer air temperatures dont result in too much rain.


----------



## machski (Nov 3, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Next Friday maybe a little warm but Monday night to Thursday night look good for making snow.


Where are you seeing that for next Friday?  Just watched WMUR and they are forecasting highs only in mid 30's for Manchester NH area starting next Friday.  Looks like trends finally turning in snow making favor.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 3, 2017)

machski said:


> where are you seeing that for next friday?  Just watched wmur and they are forecasting highs only in mid 30's for manchester nh area starting next friday.  Looks like trends finally turning in snow making favor.
> 
> Sent from my xt1650 using alpinezone mobile app



noaa


----------



## ss20 (Nov 3, 2017)

machski said:


> Where are you seeing that for next Friday?  Just watched WMUR and they are forecasting highs only in mid 30's for Manchester NH area starting next Friday.  Looks like trends finally turning in snow making favor.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Friday is going to be the day it goes from "autumn cold" to "winter cold"!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 4, 2017)

machski said:


> Where are you seeing that for next Friday?  Just watched WMUR and they are forecasting highs only in mid 30's for Manchester NH area starting next Friday.  Looks like trends finally turning in snow making favor.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



NoAA was showing 40 but now shows 27 on Friday so I stand corrected


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 4, 2017)

Models adjusting them selves....


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2017)

Taken by me this morning.  








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slatham (Nov 4, 2017)

Top Sugarbush 26. NWS forecast 32. This is why you never take forecasts as gospel. Killington is on their game!


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2017)

And one more.  







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slatham (Nov 4, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> And one more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the pics!


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2017)

They are still blowing as of 12:10 this afternoon.  I'm surprised since it is warm here at the base.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 4, 2017)

As of just past noon today.


----------



## Jully (Nov 4, 2017)

Still fully lit up on the ridge, wow.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 4, 2017)

It is REALLY impressive to see when K full out flexes their snowmaking muscle like few, if any other resorts can! 

Can't wait to see the efforts, and a bunch of really fast women in GS suits, on Superstar 3 weeks from today!!

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 4, 2017)

drjeff said:


> it is really impressive to see when k full out flexes their snowmaking muscle like few, if any other resorts can!
> 
> Can't wait to see the efforts, and a bunch of really fast women in gs suits, on superstar 3 weeks from today!!
> 
> Sent from my xt1254 using alpinezone mobile app



the gs suits...........mmmmmmmm


----------



## cdskier (Nov 4, 2017)

drjeff said:


> It is REALLY impressive to see when K full out flexes their snowmaking muscle like few, if any other resorts can!



I can't wait to see the firepower of SS lit up top to bottom with the new and improved Superstar webcam!


----------



## drjeff (Nov 4, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> the gs suits...........mmmmmmmm


Those "from behind" views in the start tent rarely disappoint!! [emoji12] [emoji16] [emoji12] [emoji16] 

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 5, 2017)

Killington's bottleneck won't be air (at least, below 26 WB or so). Big air runs 10:1 air to water there, and that improves as it gets colder. (Yes, that's an approximation.) But they have 72,000 CFM and 7000 GPM. So once they max out their water pumps, all they can do is put the same amount of snow on less area.

Granted I expect they'll get there in the end this year, but water, not air, is what'll cause gaps in trails for the public.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


----------



## slatham (Nov 5, 2017)

IceEidolon said:


> Killington's bottleneck won't be air (at least, below 26 WB or so). Big air runs 10:1 air to water there, and that improves as it gets colder. (Yes, that's an approximation.) But they have 72,000 CFM and 7000 GPM. So once they max out their water pumps, all they can do is put the same amount of snow on less area.
> 
> Granted I expect they'll get there in the end this year, but water, not air, is what'll cause gaps in trails for the public.
> 
> Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk



Good point, once the real cold comes in. But is the number really 7000gpm? I though it was higher but am far from an expert on K's system.


----------



## IceEidolon (Nov 5, 2017)

slatham said:


> Good point, once the real cold comes in. But is the number really 7000gpm? I though it was higher but am far from an expert on K's system.


That's what I was told last year by one of their snowmakers. It would make the 72000 CFM number make sense, too - they almost can't use any more air than that.

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk


----------



## cdskier (Nov 5, 2017)

slatham said:


> Good point, once the real cold comes in. But is the number really 7000gpm? I though it was higher but am far from an expert on K's system.





IceEidolon said:


> That's what I was told last year by one of their snowmakers. It would make the 72000 CFM number make sense, too - they almost can't use any more air than that.



I found an article from several years ago that said K could pump out 720,000 gallons of water per hour (which translates to 12K GPM). On K's website today though, it says they can pump out 10 Million gallons per day (which comes to just under 7K per hour and would match what IceEidolon was told).

That's interesting if they really are only 7K GPM. I thought they were much higher than Sugarbush in terms of water pumping capacity. SB has about 6K capacity between the 2 snowmaking systems (4K at LP and 2K at ME) from what I remember.


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 5, 2017)

7K out of Snowshed alone but then 5K out of Bear. 

73K+ CFM. They rent 24 HP 1600s Doosan now used to be straight IR. Usually 12 in non-World Cup years. Then you have the owned 7 owned electrics.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 5, 2017)

If Killington is truly forced to dedicate a ton of attention to just one run to pull this off, I wonder how the locals feel about that?  I mean, sure the event's cool and everything, but if it comes at the expense of a decent bit of early skiing trail coverage I dont think I'd be a fan were I a K passholder.


----------



## machski (Nov 5, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> If Killington is truly forced to dedicate a ton of attention to just one run to pull this off, I wonder how the locals feel about that?  I mean, sure the event's cool and everything, but if it comes at the expense of a decent bit of early skiing trail coverage I dont think I'd be a fan were I a K passholder.


This discussion was put through the hoops last year and quashed.  They bring in extra air compressors beyond what they normally do and they don't dial down on the public expansion plan.  It might seem like they do but last year was a marginal early season and this year is so far even worse.  Not like they would have had much more open last year by Turkey day and this year, well no one is skiing yet in the east.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Euler (Nov 5, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Those "from behind" views in the start tent rarely disappoint!! [emoji12] [emoji16] [emoji12] [emoji16]
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app



Are you kidding me?  A middle aged man thinks its a good idea to comment in a sexual manner about talented young women who are incredible athletes?  Thanks for the reminder to continue to be ashamed of my gender.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 5, 2017)

Euler said:


> Are you kidding me?  A middle aged man thinks its a good idea to comment in a sexual manner about talented young women who are incredible athletes?  Thanks for the reminder to continue to be ashamed of my gender.



Oh RELAX! This world is getting too fracking PC.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 5, 2017)

Euler said:


> Are you kidding me?  A middle aged man thinks its a good idea to comment in a sexual manner about talented young women who are incredible athletes?  Thanks for the reminder to continue to be ashamed of my gender.


OMG...lighten up!

Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 6, 2017)

A gift from mother nature to the Beast:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/610day/index.php


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 6, 2017)

Newpylong said:


> A gift from mother nature to the Beast:
> 
> http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/610day/index.php



What's it look like from then, up to December 1st?


----------



## Puck it (Nov 6, 2017)




----------



## Puck it (Nov 6, 2017)




----------



## Puck it (Nov 6, 2017)




----------



## Newpylong (Nov 6, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> What's it look like from then, up to December 1st?



From what I have seen, above average until the new year. But who knows.


----------



## ironhippy (Nov 6, 2017)

Euler said:


> Are you kidding me?  A middle aged man thinks its a good idea to comment in a sexual manner about talented young women who are incredible athletes?  Thanks for the reminder to continue to be ashamed of my gender.



I highly doubt this is exclusive to males. Have you ever watched professional sports with women?


----------



## ss20 (Nov 6, 2017)

Euler said:


> Are you kidding me?  A middle aged man thinks its a good idea to comment in a sexual manner about talented young women who are incredible athletes?  Thanks for the reminder to continue to be ashamed of my gender.



Don't watch NASCAR with the new "Monster Energy Girls" wandering around the track looking pretty...or football with those cheerleaders :lol:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 6, 2017)

Euler said:


> Are you kidding me? * A middle aged man thinks its a good idea to comment in a sexual manner about talented young women who are incredible athletes?  Thanks for the reminder to continue to be ashamed of my gender.*



I view comments like that as childish.   But you know what comments I view with even more disdain?

Overtly self-righteous, "feel good" comments, not made for the actual purpose of expressing any true outrage, but made solely for the purpose of alerting the planet to what a "better" person you are, and which are driven by an obvious low self-esteem.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 6, 2017)

Some of these WC girls are under age. It's very sexist and inappropriate to make those comments.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 6, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> Some of these WC girls are under age. It's very sexist and inappropriate to make those comments.



Actually, none of them are. They are all over 18 currently. Take a chill pill......


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 6, 2017)

This thread turned awesome quick.
FAUXRAGE!!!


----------



## mbedle (Nov 6, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> This thread turned awesome quick.
> FAUXRAGE!!!



LOL - thats a good one.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 6, 2017)

The amount of PC some people have now days is nuts. They probably would go crying to their Mommies if they called them Ugly and need a safe place.


----------



## JimG. (Nov 6, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> I highly doubt this is exclusive to males. Have you ever watched professional sports with women?



This.


----------



## Hawkshot99 (Nov 6, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> Some of these WC girls are under age. It's very sexist and inappropriate to make those comments.


Well then I will only look at the 18+ ones. Does that make you happy?
Or I can post a pic of me in my race suit to check out. You know, to keep it fare....

Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 6, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> *FAUXRAGE!!!*



This is the new social media sport in America.  

 How can I fake outrage today to make other people think that I am a "good person" who's on the "correct" side of an issue or belief?


----------



## skiberg (Nov 6, 2017)

My favorite part was using gender instead of sex.  What a sanctimonious puke.


----------



## slatham (Nov 6, 2017)

And now onto our regularly scheduled program......

Looks like the weather is turning just in time!


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 6, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Well then I will only look at the 18+ ones. Does that make you happy?
> Or I can post a pic of me in my race suit to check out. You know, to keep it fare....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 6, 2017)

slatham said:


> And now onto our regularly scheduled program......
> 
> Looks like the weather is turning just in time!



Thanks!


----------



## mbedle (Nov 6, 2017)

"Feels Like I Wearing Nothing At All"


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 6, 2017)

skiberg said:


> My favorite part was using gender instead of sex.  What a sanctimonious puke.



I thought that gender was supposed to be completely fluid?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Nov 7, 2017)

Overall these long-range climate models perform poorly & have flip-flopped a ton.  December now looks better. 

  Here's the week in question though, take it with a grain of salt.  It now looks like Killington should have plenty of opportunity to build a buffer ahead of time even if it is unseasonably warm.  Snow quality might be crap, but the event looks safer than it did a week ago that's for sure.







EDIT:  Just saw on TWTR it's currently snowing at Killington


----------



## ironhippy (Nov 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Snow quality might be crap, but the event looks safer than it did a week ago that's for sure.



Isn't this a benefit for the racers? I thought they preferred ice.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 7, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> Isn't this a benefit for the racers? I thought they preferred ice.



The harder the better!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 7, 2017)

They are lighting up the rest of SuperStar right now.  They'll have guns running T2B within the hour!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 7, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> The harder the better!



That's what she said! :lol:


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 7, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> They are lighting up the rest of SuperStar right now.  They'll have guns running T2B within the hour!


Still ones section they aren't above the fan guns


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 7, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That's what she said! :lol:



You guys are slipping, I was expecting a comment like this sooner. I am disappointed!


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 7, 2017)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> That's what she said! :lol:


I cannot believe you would post that.  I am disgraced with men as a gender!!  How despicable!!  Think of the children!!!!



_Am I doing this right?_


----------



## mbedle (Nov 7, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I cannot believe you would post that.  I am disgraced with men as a gender!!  How despicable!!  Think of the children!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _Am I doing this right?_



Close enough...


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 7, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I cannot believe you would post that.  I am disgraced with men as a gender!!  How despicable!!  Think of the children!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> _Am I doing this right?_



Perfect!


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 7, 2017)

Lol!


----------



## ss20 (Nov 8, 2017)

Where'd all the doubters go?  Weird...once they start making snow this thread dies....


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 8, 2017)

Never doubted it.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Nov 8, 2017)




----------



## mbedle (Nov 8, 2017)

That is what I call a kickass effort!


----------



## Jully (Nov 8, 2017)

Beautiful!


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 8, 2017)

That is impressive!


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 8, 2017)

Drool! Snowmaking Porn...:smile:


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 8, 2017)

That is an impressive array of fire power.  Temps must be marginal now, as predicted, as it appears they are only blowing on upper east fall in North ridge.


----------



## skiur (Nov 8, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> That is an impressive array of fire power.  Temps must be marginal now, as predicted, as it appears they are only blowing on upper east fall in North ridge.



They are also blowing upper GN....hopefully tomorrow the stairway will only be needed to get back to the peak.  I don't mind so much hiking up in ski boots, but I have no interest in hiking down in ski boots.


----------



## mriceyman (Nov 8, 2017)

The amount of snow made thurs through sunday should be insane


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 8, 2017)

I don't think they are making any snow on Great northern yet.  At least not within view of the peak lodge cam which has a little less than 270 degrees of rotation


----------



## skiur (Nov 8, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I don't think they are making any snow on Great northern yet.  At least not within view of the peak lodge cam which has a little less than 270 degrees of rotation



Trail report lists upper GN as closed with snowmaking.


----------



## machski (Nov 9, 2017)

skiur said:


> Trail report lists upper GN as closed with snowmaking.


They started the upper GN loop at 10am this morning.  Upper East Fall is further along.  That is the extent of it on the public side however.  Rime and Reason we're very good, firm but edgable with loose on the edges.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## machski (Nov 9, 2017)

Some shots of lower SS.  Not there yet but coming along.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 9, 2017)

for what its worth they are running a Winch Cat on SuperStar right now (4:40 EST)  I'm sure they are just gauging depth.


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 9, 2017)

jimmywilson69 said:


> for what its worth they are running a Winch Cat on SuperStar right now (4:40 EST)  I'm sure they are just gauging depth.


Its kinda cool watching them work at dusk like this with the lights from the people and cat.


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 9, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Its kinda cool watching them work at dusk like this with the lights from the people and cat.


2-3 mins after I posted that the camera changed from color to black-and-white.  All I can see is a big ball of light traveling up the trail, the cat's lights are blinding the camera haha.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 9, 2017)

So now we got the answer. They only need about 64 hours. And it's been marginal the whole time.


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 13, 2017)

Grandstands are almost done and our tickets just showed up. Looks like the trail is being inspected now! Game on!


----------



## Smellytele (Nov 13, 2017)

andrec10 said:


> Grandstands are almost done and our tickets just showed up. Looks like the trail is being inspected now! Game on!



grooming it anyhow...


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 14, 2017)

4 groomers working the snow right now.  1 on each pitch of SS and 1 in the base. 

Looks like a lot of now on SS.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 14, 2017)

Are those stairs on the back of the grandstands for the expensive tix?


----------



## slatham (Nov 16, 2017)

"...the mood is celebratory here at The Beast where we received final confirmation from the FIS on Wednesday that the snow surface on Superstar will be ready to host the Xfinity Killington Cup on Thanksgiving weekend."

From snow report this am.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 16, 2017)

What a great job by the snowmaking team at Killington.  And thank you Mother Nature, for changing your mood.


----------



## tumbler (Nov 16, 2017)

Gotta hand it to them, that assualt on Superstar was unbelievable.


----------



## slatham (Nov 18, 2017)

Anyone know why the Superstar cam is no longer available? Not even on the list of web cams??


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 18, 2017)

They pointed it to the K1 summit then took it down.


----------



## mbedle (Nov 18, 2017)

You can still view it at http://www.killington.com/site/mountain/webcam/superstar.html but double diamond is right, its pointed towards K1 now.


----------



## Jully (Nov 18, 2017)

There was some talk about them having to take it down for the world cup broadcast. Seemed rather silly to me because it would be a pretty crappy way to view the race, but maybe thats why?


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 18, 2017)

Jully said:


> There was some talk about them having to take it down for the world cup broadcast. Seemed rather silly to me because it would be a pretty crappy way to view the race, but maybe thats why?



Leave it to Broadcast rights. I believe this is why though.


----------



## slatham (Nov 18, 2017)

I can buy broadcast rights, but thats a full week away? Nice shot of K1 though......


----------



## Jully (Nov 18, 2017)

slatham said:


> I can buy broadcast rights, but thats a full week away? Nice shot of K1 though......



It is a STUNNING view of K1. Wouldn't mind if they permanently had a webcam pointed there in addition to SS.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 18, 2017)

Jully said:


> It is a STUNNING view of K1. Wouldn't mind if they permanently had a webcam pointed there in addition to SS.



I was thinking the same thing. Hell I prefer this view over Superstar. Just point it back at Superstar in the spring.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 18, 2017)

Didn't they used to have a K1 view cam?


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 18, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> Didn't they used to have a K1 view cam?


They did....I think it is the golf course or the showshed cam. I agree with others as the SS cam should stay until spring!

Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## FBGM (Nov 18, 2017)

K zoneera forum is kabunk. Get out the aluminum foil hats for da fix. Superstar fire power good for racers. Bad for rainz tomorrow. Ice rink after. 

Vail Mothership Walmart opened their east coast headquarters. I'm sure it was epic. 

Mt Blow getting sued by the flatlanders. Standard. Settlement will happen. 

Rainz to come. Liquid pow pow. Jersey joe out!


----------



## mister moose (Nov 18, 2017)

FBGM said:


> K zoneera forum is kabunk. Get out the aluminum foil hats for da fix.



I checked with an admin and there is a malware issue with some files that caused the host to lock down the site.  Given it's the weekend it might be a little while to get back on line.


----------



## jaybird (Nov 19, 2017)

Are the girls up there doing training runs Monday and Tuesday?
It was fun to meet notables last year .. 2 in particular 

The venue this year is a much better layout.
The course has undergone some changes as well.


----------



## slatham (Nov 19, 2017)

Cam back on. Bunch of people on the hill. Snowing. At least they don't have to worry about injecting the course with water to get it FIS hard!


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 20, 2017)

Possibly on  Skyelark. Most certainly *NOT* on Superstar. WC hills are closed to even racers the week before an event. It's to minimize home-field advantage.  The only time they are allowed on the race hill before the first run inspection is if the jury gives a freeski day. The ladies have one scheduled for Friday AM.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Nov 20, 2017)

KMS kids got to ski superstar on Saturday and I was jealous


----------



## SIKSKIER (Nov 20, 2017)

IIRC last year I tried to view that cam during the races and it was not available.Just watched them set up the fencing.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Nov 20, 2017)

The snowshed cam I think is different than the mountain view cam they had last year.Right now they have it pointed showing snowmaking on Snowshed but it has moved slightly and is also showing Snowden and K peaks.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Nov 20, 2017)

Well that was a first,I was just viewing the Superstar and somebody was moving all over,zooming all around in and out.Had a close look at many different areas.Great cam.


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2017)

I'm at Logan airport in the international arrivals area and ran into the Norwegian ski team's equipment.  Four very Norwegian looking ladies of competitive skiing age are sitting near the gear.  These are just two of several carts.  









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2017)

I chatted with them for a few seconds.  They are indeed racing at Killington.  We talked about the snow making effort and how close it was.  I wished them good luck and was on my way.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tumbler (Nov 20, 2017)

You would think with the way airlines handle luggage they would have the hard cases for their skis.  Kinda important to them...My hard case got the snot beat out of it on a direct flight.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 20, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> I chatted with them for a few seconds.  They are indeed racing at Killington.  We talked about the snow making effort and how close it was.  I wished them good luck and was on my way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very cool! Thanks for the pics!

Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 20, 2017)

tumbler said:


> You would think with the way airlines handle luggage they would have the hard cases for their skis.  Kinda important to them...My hard case got the snot beat out of it on a direct flight.



I was surprised too.  On an unrelated note, the luggage had priority tags, which suggests that they fly business class.


----------



## skiberg (Nov 20, 2017)

They won’t use hard cases. They can damage the edges.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 20, 2017)

tumbler said:


> You would think with the way airlines handle luggage they would have the hard cases for their skis.  Kinda important to them...My hard case got the snot beat out of it on a direct flight.


The reality is once they get to Killington, they give their skis to their brand's and/or country's associated servicemen (if they're not ranked high enough to warrant a personal manufacturer's supplied serviceman, and any damage a soft bag (with likely serviceman packed, tightly bound, skis) damage could happen will be repaired and waxed to that specific days snow temps specific's shortly after the tecs become in possession of their skis!! #thesetecsaregood!!

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## skiberg (Nov 20, 2017)

Ask a tech. They don’t use hard cases for a reason.


----------



## Hawk (Nov 21, 2017)

The Swiss Team is at Sugarbush this morning training on Spring Fling.  They closed the trail to the public until 10:00am.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 21, 2017)

Hawk said:


> The Swiss Team is at Sugarbush this morning training on Spring Fling.  They closed the trail to the public until 10:00am.



Yea...very cool!


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 21, 2017)

Isn't Spring Fling the only trail they have open??  :lol:


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 21, 2017)

Posted by*Jeff Temple*on November 20, 2017

Oh good, it’s warm and raining…* I never thought I would utter those words during the winter season, but I did say them on Sunday morning, following a night of temperatures in the 40s and steady rain. Although obviously not ideal weather for running a winter resort, on this particular morning I was happy to wake up to rain, rather than freezing precipitation that would have presented numerous operational difficulties for lifts, grooming and the Peak Lodge.*

In this case, there was an added benefit from the unfrozen moisture—our World Cup training and race trails (Skyelark and Superstar) were scheduled to be “watered” later that morning, and the rain was helping the cause.

To give you a little backstory, the snow surface that World Cup ski racers prefer is probably a little different from the surface that you or I prefer. They like the trail surface hard—very hard. To get it that way, water is often added to, and sometimes injected into, the snow.

To facilitate the watering of the race venue, we had “opened up” the snow surfaces on Saturday afternoon—basically tracked the surface with grooming tractors and left them as rough and porous as possible so the rain would penetrate the snow rather than running off. The more saturated the snow, the harder the surface gets once all that water freezes.

With warm temperatures lingering into Sunday morning, four to seven person crews of race volunteers and officials marched down Superstar, each crew working three snowguns to spray water over the entire course, soaking the snow even more thoroughly than the rain had the night before. Immediately following the water application, and timed to coincide with the significant drop in temperatures starting around noon Sunday, grooming tractors returned to the course to till in the wet snow and smooth it out. The water has since frozen making the course significantly harder.* Later in the week, a decision will be made by FIS to further “inject” the trail with even more water if needed; this is accomplished with long pipes and water jets.* This injector pipe is walked down the trail with injections occuring every few feet or less over the entire length of the course.

And, of course, the dropping temperatures are not only good for making World Cup race courses—they’re good for making snow too. Snowmaking is already back on line, and with World Cup snow already in place on Superstar and Skyelark, 100% of the capacity, including the extra World Cup resources, is going toward eexpanding terrain for Thanksgiving Weekend. To give you an idea of what you can expect in the next week or so, we plan to make snow on Snowdon (Chute, Bunny Buster and Killink) to get the Snowdon Poma and Snowdon Quad running by midweek. We’ll also be making snow on Lower East Fall, to have the Canyon Quad running for the weekend, and the Snowshed and Ramshead Learn To areas, which will be served by magic carpet lifts for the holiday weekend.

Thanksgiving and the*Xfinity Killington Cupare sure to make this an exciting and memorable week, I hope to see you here.





Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Jully (Nov 21, 2017)

And here comes K with significant expansion! If weather continues to be cold like this, the first weekend of December could have a lot going on!


----------



## skiberg (Nov 21, 2017)

Check out the Web cam, you can see them firming up the Course right now.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Nov 21, 2017)

skiberg said:


> Check out the Web cam, you can see them firming up the Course right now.



I've been trying to connect that cam for a few hours with no luck.Watched it this morning a few times.Maybe its just to much traffic on it?


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 21, 2017)

SIKSKIER said:


> I've been trying to connect that cam for a few hours with no luck.Watched it this morning a few times.Maybe its just to much traffic on it?


Yeah, looks like it is down now.  When I looked a couple hours earlier they weren't doing anything, but the course overall looks pretty impressive from the cam.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 21, 2017)

So is Highway Star who claims K needs 5 feet of snow on Superstar for the WC going to admit he's wrong?

From Jeff Temple directly: 18-19" is all that's needed

"The warmer than usual October was nerve racking, he admits. But he says the recent cold snap and a lot of 12 to 14 hour days have helped him and his staff meet the World Cup course requirements of 18 to 19 inches of hard pack"

http://digital.vpr.net/post/after-f...gain-host-womens-world-cup-nov-25-26#stream/0


----------



## thetrailboss (Nov 21, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> So is Highway Star who claims K needs 5 feet of snow on Superstar for the WC going to admit he's wrong?
> 
> From Jeff Temple directly: 18-19" is all that's needed
> 
> ...



You obviously don't know HS.  He NEVER admits he is wrong.  He also skis absolutely perfectly as any AZer can attest from this classic video:


----------



## VTKilarney (Nov 21, 2017)

"Nice turns man!  That's sweet!"


----------



## tumbler (Nov 22, 2017)

Those tails got a workout!!


----------



## Newpylong (Nov 22, 2017)

"it was manky"


----------



## ironhippy (Nov 22, 2017)

Anyone criticizing has clearly never skied in DEEP untracked snow before.


----------



## skiur (Nov 22, 2017)

doublediamond said:


> So is Highway Star who claims K needs 5 feet of snow on Superstar for the WC going to admit he's wrong?
> I
> From Jeff Temple directly: 18-19" is all that's needed
> 
> ...



18" of hardpack.  I would expect you would need to blow snow about 4-5 feet deep so that after grooming and wetting and compressing the snow you end up with 18" of hardpack world cup ready snow.


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 22, 2017)

Straight from the K2000/K3000 people:

" the snow density ratio will vary from approximately 0.38 to 0.48 for good
quality manmade snow. "

http://www.the-snowman.com/downloads/Man Made Snow Density Measure.pdf

***IF*** they made 5 feet at 0.38 you'd have 2.1 feet at 0.9 density, which would be pure ice with no air. 



From the makers of the water injectors:

"Snow weight per m³
Natural snow 70 - 200 kg/m³
Artificial snow 350 - 400 kg/m³
Ice 900 kg/m³
Water 1,000 kg/m³
Giant Slalom ladies 500 kg/m³
Slalom men 650 kg/m³"

https://mobile.steinbach-alpin.com/userdata/5931/uploads/praesentationen/steinbach_alpin_new_e.pdf

That's 0.50 density for ladies racing.



Highway Star is full of shit.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 25, 2017)

Another big crowd for the world cup! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## ALLSKIING (Nov 25, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Another big crowd for the world cup!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fantastic! Thanks for the pic

Sent from my SM-N950U using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Jully (Nov 25, 2017)

K announced 18,000 today. More than last year!


----------



## slatham (Nov 25, 2017)

I can't vouch for crowd size vs last year, but I can tell you all it was an absolutely incredible day and experience. Even though Mileala didn't win, she killed it coming in 2nd and the energy at the end was in incredible. Great day. Well done Killington! Those with other threads claiming Killington failed are being selfish and missing the bigger picture.


----------



## drjeff (Nov 25, 2017)

slatham said:


> I can't vouch for crowd size vs last year, but I can tell you all it was an absolutely incredible day and experience. Even though Mileala didn't win, she killed it coming in 2nd and the energy at the end was in incredible. Great day. Well done Killington! Those with other threads claiming Killington failed are being selfish and missing the bigger picture.


110% agree!! Killington knocked it out of the park today!! They upped their game after being overwhelmed last year from the crowd size, and totally killed it!!

All of the fans also appreciated all the racers! And while Mikeala Shiffrin by far and away got the loudest cheers of the day, every time any of the women crested the top of "Preston's Pitch" and came into view of the crowds in the finish area, it got loud!! 

I doubt that the FIS and/or the USSA will be looking to move a weekend of races away from the East Coast once the contract with K ends after next year's races, as long as K still wants to host, after the success it's been thus far! Aspen may be off the Women's schedule and just a World Championship venue for a while IMHO!

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 26, 2017)

Aspen burned bridges by putting the WC Finals in an abandoned lodge.  FIS and the racers were pissed. Aspen won't be getting any WC-calibre competition for a long time.

I too see Killington getting more contracts following next year. Warmest October on record and K still managed to get the venue built out with more terrain open than last year.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Nov 26, 2017)

Watched this morning and coverage by NBC was great.  So cool to have 18k people there.  Even Bodie commented on the much better atmosphere at Killington than out west.  That speaks a lot to the skiing community and the host mountain.

I hope they continue this for years and they are successful.  

Sent from my SM-G930V using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## doublediamond (Nov 26, 2017)

16,000 there today.


----------



## catherine (Nov 26, 2017)

Killington certainly did knock it out of the park.  We got there early, the shuttle busses where timely, security a breeze, and the skiing was pretty good with 27 trails open.  The crowd was incredible.  The cheering when the racers came in sight, WOW!


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 26, 2017)

Killington did an amazing job! More people and it seemed less crowded because is was better managed!


----------



## andrec10 (Nov 26, 2017)

Ok, now how about Whiteface hosting some speed events! Lets get those trails re-homogulated!


----------



## Glenn (Nov 27, 2017)

That's awesome! Great to see a successful major ski race in New England.


----------



## Jcb890 (Nov 27, 2017)

Great to see a successful event by Killington after a tough early-season with the weather being warmer than everyone hoped.


----------



## Not Sure (Nov 27, 2017)




----------



## doublediamond (Nov 30, 2017)

Looks like SuperStar is scheduled to open tomorrow per the updated trail report. Cat on the hill grooming it right now.


----------



## skiur (Sep 5, 2018)

Tickets on sale now, heard Killingtons server could not keep up with demand, anybody here get tickets?


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 5, 2018)

Not interested. I like to ski but not watch others ski.


----------



## drjeff (Sep 5, 2018)

skiur said:


> Tickets on sale now, heard Killingtons server could not keep up with demand, anybody here get tickets?



I was locked out until about 9:17, then I was able to get the parking passes for Saturday that I wanted. Tried going back on about 9:35 to get 2 grandstand tickets for a friend for Saturday and they appeared to be sold out by then.

Considering the last 2 years I wasn't able to get in to even be able to find out that all tickets and parking passes for the day I wanted to go were sold out until almost 10, I consider this an improvement this year. Also have what has to amount to a few thousand extra parking spaces via the Vale lot available, likely helped being able to get K-1 parking passes this morning when I did. I get that the Vale lot used to be free, vs the $20 it is this year, but I;m guessing that some people who may have paid the $50 for the k-1 lot chose to take advantage of the $20 Vale lot parking and the shuttle system...


----------



## skiur (Sep 5, 2018)

If its a good start to the year and they can get caper and lower great northern open those $20 vale lot tickets become quite the bargain.


----------



## Killingtime (Sep 5, 2018)

I'll probably just do what I've done the past two years. Hike up the bottom of Superstar and watch from the side. Not the best view but the crowd was great last year. The large screen TV's helped a lot too.


----------



## andrec10 (Sep 5, 2018)

Gotta skip this year, sons getting married shortly after this.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 7, 2018)

Pretty cool to see this happen again.  It is nice to see a revival of Killington.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 7, 2018)

the disco biscuits are playing albany 11/23 and 11/24. i really wanted to go 11/23 and then ski the next day. killington is gonna be such a shitshow tho. i hope stratton is open and worthwhile that weekend.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 7, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Pretty cool to see this happen again.  It is nice to see a revival of Killington.


  It is great to see this happening on the east coast, however I think "revival" is a bit of a leap.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 7, 2018)

Perhaps, but the money going into lifts and South Ridge trail resurrection (however controversial to the vocal minority) this year certainly is trending towards revival. Won't see a full rebirth until (and if) that interconnect is ever built to replace lost acreage, but they're on the right track with the Cup, early and late openings, etc. If I was a K regular or called it home there is not much to complain about going into this year.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 7, 2018)

id much rather they never complete the interconnect. keep pico uncrowded and special.


----------



## machski (Sep 7, 2018)

While not full world cup, Waterville will follow by hosting the US National Championships in March.  Just GS, Slalom, Dual Slalom.  Speed events will happen ahead likely out west.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mister moose (Sep 8, 2018)

Newpylong said:


> Perhaps, but the money going into lifts and South Ridge trail resurrection (however controversial to the vocal minority) this year certainly is trending towards revival. Won't see a full rebirth until (and if) that interconnect is ever built to replace lost acreage, but they're on the right track with the Cup, early and late openings, etc. If I was a K regular or called it home there is not much to complain about going into this year.



Not sure what South Ridge Trail resurrection you're talking about.  There are no new trails.  We do get back the lift, but no one is expecting it to run weekdays, and even some weekends it might not.  The SR triple used to run only on holidays or big event weekends after Bear opened.

The rebirth to many of us was when Killington returned to the "First to open, last to close" mode.

The real estate market is so slow that the announced Bear Condo project has quietly been shelved.  
https://vermontbiz.com/news/april/killington-prepares-110-million-upgrade-bear-mountain
No word on the concurrent Bear lodge renovation.  If ski-in condos at Bear won't sell, how are you going to sell a more expensive Village that isn't even slope-side?  Add in flat skier visits to the State of Vermont, and the interconnect looks a long way off.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 8, 2018)

I am aware of how little the "fridge" ran, I've been going there since the mid 80's. By resurrecting I mean reinstalling the lift (which is crucial to servicing that pod), and fixing the Pipe Dream snowmaking. Though there are some who think SR is their private stash and enjoy a 45 minute lap down into Bear, up Skye and over K-1 to do it all again, as both an occasional K customer and someone involved in management (elsewhere), I consider that a waste of terrain. 



I also don't see the Interconnect happening - not until those visits get way back up.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 8, 2018)

Yeah it's a real shame about those bear condos not happening (for now, at least).  

Owning a condo at the base of Devil's Fiddle or Outer Limits would be incredible.  Imagine the grill running at noon on a 60 degree April spring day.  Build a snow bar and have a couple cold ones while watching people on some of the most unrelenting and legendary terrain in the East.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 9, 2018)

Just wondering when does Bear peak usually open and close for the season? I usually only ski K early or late season.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 9, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Just wondering when does Bear peak usually open and close for the season? I usually only ski K early or late season.



Usually 3rd week of December to the 1st or 2nd weekend in April.  They host the mogul challenge and then open the weekend after as a "bonus" weekend (that's they're typical spin on it at least).  2 years ago they went to the 16th (Easter Sunday) and it was amazing with temps in the 70s.


----------



## Pez (Sep 9, 2018)

Haha.  The Bear mountain condo project just popped into my head last night.  I was thinking how amazing it would be to look out in the early morning at devil's fiddle with the sun coming up.


----------



## sull1102 (Sep 9, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> the disco biscuits are playing albany 11/23 and 11/24. i really wanted to go 11/23 and then ski the next day. killington is gonna be such a shitshow tho. i hope stratton is open and worthwhile that weekend.



Mount Snow will likely have significantly more terrain open than Stratton. Last year at that point in the year Snow had the most terrain in the east by a pretty wide margin. After the World Cup(see I'm not going off topic) Killington turns the guns on everywhere and caught up very fast and blew past Snow before Christmas.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 9, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Mount Snow will likely have significantly more terrain open than Stratton. Last year at that point in the year Snow had the most terrain in the east by a pretty wide margin. After the World Cup(see I'm not going off topic) Killington turns the guns on everywhere and caught up very fast and blew past Snow before Christmas.



I'm going to bet he mentioned Stratton instead of Snow because he has an Ikon pass.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 10, 2018)

^correct. don't really want to go as far as sugarbush that early in the season.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 10, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> It is great to see this happening on the east coast, however I think "revival" is a bit of a leap.



You think so?  Interesting.  Obviously it has been a while since I was at Killington, so I am watching from afar.  Interested in other comments as to this.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Sep 11, 2018)

Killington is definitely on the upswing. I just hope they don't price themselves out of the "cool" segment and start charging Vail prices. Killington does best when marketed as a place everyone can enjoy and not in an elitist way.

AFAIK they are still offering 2 for 1 & 50% off midweek tickets with deals through Ride and Ski NE Card and others. That's all I need them to keep doing. But then again 50% of $140 means I go somewhere else so window price needs to stabilize.

Pico is their hidden gem basically, although not so hidden on weekends, the interconnect is a dumb idea and I pity the fool who wastes their time and money on a Killington pass and takes 7 lifts to get over to Pico for 2 runs before heading back.


----------



## skiur (Sep 11, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Killington is definitely on the upswing. I just hope they don't price themselves out of the "cool" segment and start charging Vail prices. Killington does best when marketed as a place everyone can enjoy and not in an elitist way.
> 
> AFAIK they are still offering 2 for 1 & 50% off midweek tickets with deals through Ride and Ski NE Card and others. That's all I need them to keep doing. But then again 50% of $140 means I go somewhere else so window price needs to stabilize.
> 
> Pico is their hidden gem basically, although not so hidden on weekends, the interconnect is a dumb idea and I pity the fool who wastes their time and money on a Killington pass and takes 7 lifts to get over to Pico for 2 runs before heading back.



Actually, if you parked at k1 or ramshead (where majority of people begin their day) you would only have to take 1 or 2 lifts, not 7.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Sep 11, 2018)

Well of course. Maybe if you start at Ramshead , Pico could be a better option than moving in the other direction on some days. Only benefits passholders though since day tickets at Pico are cheaper, you'd think most people would go in the opposite direction.

Better off avoiding that mess, they're 2 fine ski areas with different appeals and neither one is short on terrain for a day of skiing. K pass lets you ski Pico anyway if you have multiple days, just park there one of the days.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 11, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Well of course. Maybe if you start at Ramshead , Pico could be a better option than moving in the other direction on some days. Only benefits passholders though since day tickets at Pico are cheaper, you'd think most people would go in the opposite direction.



If they had the interconnect there still maybe a Pico only ticket but there might not be. But there would be no way that you could ski on the cheaper Pico ticket at K. If you wanted to ski both you would have to by the whole mtn ticket kind of like Sugarbush/Mt Ellen


----------



## cdskier (Sep 11, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> If they had the interconnect there still maybe a Pico only ticket but there might not be. But there would be no way that you could ski on the cheaper Pico ticket at K. If you wanted to ski both you would have to by the whole mtn ticket kind of like Sugarbush/Mt Ellen



As soon as I started reading your response I immediately thought of the Sugarbush/Mt Ellen example. Mt Ellen only tickets are still available for less than a Sugarbush one. But if you want to take the Slide Brook lift from Mt Ellen over to Sugarbush you have to have a regular Sugarbush ticket and not a Mt Ellen-only one. K/Pico could easily do that same setup where you need the "higher-end" ticket to be able to get on the Interconnect lift from the Pico side.

Of course all that said, I'm still in the camp that doesn't want to see the two areas connected and think Pico is great kept separately (as long as it is financially viable to keep it separate).


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 11, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Of course all that said, I'm still in the camp that doesn't want to see the two areas connected and think Pico is great kept separately (as long as it is financially viable to keep it separate).



My thought is would it make them any more money connecting them? They got the right away for water up and over it and that is what they really wanted. The interconnect is really secondary for them.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 11, 2018)

skiur said:


> Actually, if you parked at k1 or ramshead (where majority of people begin their day) you would only have to take 1 or 2 lifts, not 7.



Exactly.  That was the plan.  It is not a bad idea--especially for using Pico as a gateway for folks TO Killington to save traffic going up the Access Road.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 11, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> My thought is would it make them any more money connecting them? They got the right away for water up and over it and that is what they really wanted. The interconnect is really secondary for them.



That's an interesting way to look at it and I really don't know that it would bring in any more money. On the one hand you could market yourself as a single bigger resort (although at their current size would it really make much difference), but on the other hand you could also potentially lose some people that ski Pico specifically because it is is separate and is not Killington. I agree it is definitely secondary for them and I don't know that it would bring much added value at this point.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 11, 2018)

skiur said:


> Actually, if you parked at k1 or ramshead (where majority of people begin their day) you would only have to take 1 or 2 lifts, not 7.





thetrailboss said:


> Exactly.  That was the plan.  It is not a bad idea--especially for using Pico as a gateway for folks TO Killington to save traffic going up the Access Road.



Even if you parked at Bear or Skyeship you could probably make it in about 3 lifts, although like you both said that really isn't the target audience.


----------



## ss20 (Sep 11, 2018)

I'm pro-interconnect.  I think it has to happen in order for Pico to receive any investment.  The place hasn't received any new lift since 1988 and went bankrupt in the 90s.  It's essentially frozen in time without enough business to warrant improvements.  The base village is aging, Outpost is one of the oldest lifts in the East, and the 2 HSQ's are going to need replacement in the next 10 years.  I love the mountain when it's all-open but snowmaking is minuscule, and during the week not running Little Pico or Outpost really limit the available terrain.  For the place to see any $$$ thrown at it and to improve operations I think it has to get connected to Killington.  

As for the Killington side of things the marketing potential is huge.  The resort would become something like 1,300 acres.  Every stat would be untouchable by Eastern standards.  You would have a resort that you truly could not ski in one day...meaning more overnight stays and more $$$ spent by guests.


----------



## mbedle (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't think that proposed interconnect is going to be like sugarbush, but will have two new ski pods with 2 additional lifts. So controlling access via a lift gates wouldn't be possible.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 12, 2018)

You're probably right looking at this:


----------



## cdskier (Sep 12, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I don't think that proposed interconnect is going to be like sugarbush, but will have two new ski pods with 2 additional lifts. So controlling access via a lift gates wouldn't be possible.





Smellytele said:


> You're probably right looking at this:



Hmm. I wouldn't say it is impossible even in that configuration. You could always put an access gate going to the K side right at that intersection in the middle even without a lift directly between K and Pico. An access gate doesn't need to actually be by a lift. Or simply a sign warning people that beyond this point you must have a full K ticket in order to access lifts on that side.

Of course we're getting way ahead of ourselves as even if they did put in an interconnect, the final design could be different than what they originally proposed years ago. And they could always decide to eliminate the Pico only reduced rates and just make it only one single K rate (I don't see this as a good option though as it would certainly make some people unhappy).


----------



## tumbler (Sep 12, 2018)

That map gets me reminiscing about the original slide brook plan at Sugarbush.  Multiple trail pods and a base area all along the ridge...would have rivaled K for biggest area in the East... <Homer Drool>


----------



## slatham (Sep 12, 2018)

tumbler said:


> That map gets me reminiscing about the original slide brook plan at Sugarbush.  Multiple trail pods and a base area all along the ridge...would have rivaled K for biggest area in the East... <Homer Drool>



Killington may have a chance at those pods, but Sugarbush slidebrook pods are off the table. Even their most recent ubber aggressive master plan didn't touch slidebrook. IIRC, there was some deal/swap made so it can't be done.


----------



## machski (Sep 12, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> You're probably right looking at this:


Seems it would be very easy in this configuration to control.  Probably allow Pico only guest on the Pico "back pod" and lift and on the one connector trail at the intersection, sign and maybe fence denoting the requirements to proceed to K or head back to the Pico back pod lift.  Snowbird and Alta seem to do it ok with their interconnect points.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## tumbler (Sep 12, 2018)

slatham said:


> Killington may have a chance at those pods, but Sugarbush slidebrook pods are off the table. Even their most recent ubber aggressive master plan didn't touch slidebrook. IIRC, there was some deal/swap made so it can't be done.



No, It cannot be done.  The lift was the deal.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Sep 14, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I'm pro-interconnect.  I think it has to happen in order for Pico to receive any investment.  The place hasn't received any new lift since 1988 and went bankrupt in the 90s.  It's essentially frozen in time without enough business to warrant improvements.  The base village is aging, Outpost is one of the oldest lifts in the East, and the 2 HSQ's are going to need replacement in the next 10 years.  I love the mountain when it's all-open but snowmaking is minuscule, and during the week not running Little Pico or Outpost really limit the available terrain.  For the place to see any $$$ thrown at it and to improve operations I think it has to get connected to Killington.
> 
> As for the Killington side of things the marketing potential is huge.  The resort would become something like 1,300 acres.  Every stat would be untouchable by Eastern standards.  You would have a resort that you truly could not ski in one day...meaning more overnight stays and more $$$ spent by guests.



is it weird that i love it how outpost is never open? i do a 5 minute hike with zero exertion and i have untouched or sparsely tracked powder runs deep in the afternoon, every time i ski pico, even days after a storm.


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2018)

KustyTheKlown said:


> is it weird that i love it how outpost is never open? i do a 5 minute hike with zero exertion and i have untouched or sparsely tracked powder runs deep in the afternoon, every time i ski pico, even days after a storm.


Nope

Feel the same way.  

I'm only pissed when I show up and the A Slope triple isn't spinning. 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## ss20 (Sep 14, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Nope
> 
> Feel the same way.
> 
> ...



Every time I ski A-Slope I forget how steep the top part is.  Short, but pretty freaking steep!  I couldn't imagine doing that with the equipment in the 40s and 50s... :blink:


----------



## urungus (Sep 15, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Nope
> 
> Feel the same way.
> 
> ...



Personally I find it irritating, bordering on downright fraudulent, when Pico advertises itself as 100% open but is not running the Outpost or A Slope chairlifts.  Noticed this several times last year.


----------



## thetrailboss (Sep 16, 2018)

urungus said:


> Personally I find it irritating, bordering on downright fraudulent, when Pico advertises itself as 100% open but is not running the Outpost or A Slope chairlifts.  Noticed this several times last year.



They did that a lot in the ASC days.

Outpost is not a bad hike, but A Slope is a different story.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## FBGM (Sep 17, 2018)

New tunnels at killington are going to be a disaster. This was one of those ideas that looks good on paper and that’s it. I’m surprised Mt Blow didn’t try this dumb shit first 

Also, Killy is going to be in trouble with completing this work. They bit off a bit much for 1 year. They are a first class resort. So hope they get it together.


----------



## speden (Sep 17, 2018)

On paper the tunnels look well engineered, but it will be interesting to see how they actually ski, and what kind of fencing they put around them.

Looks like some of them will ski a little bit like a roller when you go over them with a flattish approach, and then a sharper drop. Maybe with some decent speed you could catch some air off the downhill side. The pitch angle inside of them looks really mellow, so that should reduce crashes inside. I hope the pitch isn't so shallow that snowboarders get stuck. The tunnels are pretty long, so I wonder if they will need any artificial lighting inside for dark overcast days.

Somehow they will need to prevent people from going off the open ends from above, since that would be like a hucking a small cliff with a flat landing (or landing on the heads of cross traffic). When I've seen bridge/tunnels at other resorts, they usually have solid guardrails on the bridge. But I've never seen tunnels as long as these.

My worry is that they will get paranoid about accidents and put "Slow Zone" signs at every tunnel crossing, which would interrupt the flow of the trails and defeat the purpose of having them in the first place.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Sep 17, 2018)

Summit Glades > Bushwacker > A-Slope isn't a longer hike than to Outpost. Actually it's flatter, you could skate most of it.

I do think they need to start advertising more clearly which lifts will be open and when. Also some updates during the mid week period in terms of expected terrain would be nice (especially when there is a mid week storm and you expect trail count to rise).


I would change my vote on the interconnect in a heartbeat if it also meant a noticeable terrain expansion.


----------



## Jully (Sep 17, 2018)

There definitely will be some unfortunate folks who get stuck in the middle of the tunnels and need to skate/flail their way out. I don't think it will be any worse than someone stopping/getting stuck in the normal intersection though.

They might not work perfectly, but what could possibly be worse than before?


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 20, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> K pass lets you ski Pico anyway if you have multiple days,



You can ski Pico on a single day K ticket...


----------



## urungus (Sep 20, 2018)

If you get a Pico season pass, can you ski Killington on the days Pico is closed ?


----------



## cdskier (Sep 20, 2018)

urungus said:


> If you get a Pico season pass, can you ski Killington on the days Pico is closed ?



No (A Pico-only pass is cheaper than a mid-week K pass, so if they allowed that everyone that wanted to ski K midweek would just get a Pico pass instead)


----------



## ss20 (Sep 20, 2018)

cdskier said:


> No (A Pico-only pass is cheaper than a mid-week K pass, so if they allowed that everyone that wanted to ski K midweek would just get a Pico pass instead)



No because it'd only be good the two days a week Pico is closed...


----------



## cdskier (Sep 21, 2018)

ss20 said:


> No because it'd only be good the two days a week Pico is closed...



I don't know. If there's a cheaper pass that allows me to ski 7 days a week (2 days at K and 5 at Pico) vs one that only gives me 5 midweek at K per week, the cheaper one is still the one I would get. Maybe "everyone" was a bit strong, but I'd still think a pass priced that way wouldn't make sense.

At any rate, the fact still remains that the Pico pass is not valid at K when Pico is closed.


----------



## VTKilarney (Sep 21, 2018)

cdskier said:


> At any rate, the fact still remains that the Pico pass is not valid at K when Pico is closed.


Not to nitpick, but is that true for early and late season?


----------



## drjeff (Sep 21, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Not to nitpick, but is that true for early and late season?



If I recall correctly, and by no means am I 100% certain on this, K has in the pass allowed Pico only pass holders to use their passes at K after Pico has closed in some seasons. That tended to be before they rolled out their inexpensive Spring pass on a regular basis a few seasons ago. There may have also been an instance or 2 where because of challenging early season weather and a later than usual Pico opening, that Pico only passes were valid at K.

I am quite certain that K has allowed Pico only pass use at the mother hill at times in the past. Not so certain how regular an event that is in the last few years though


----------



## machski (Sep 21, 2018)

drjeff said:


> If I recall correctly, and by no means am I 100% certain on this, K has in the pass allowed Pico only pass holders to use their passes at K after Pico has closed in some seasons. That tended to be before they rolled out their inexpensive Spring pass on a regular basis a few seasons ago. There may have also been an instance or 2 where because of challenging early season weather and a later than usual Pico opening, that Pico only passes were valid at K.
> 
> I am quite certain that K has allowed Pico only pass use at the mother hill at times in the past. Not so certain how regular an event that is in the last few years though


^^^^^THIS^^^^^
It is not ordinary but I believe if the weather does not cooperate and Pico is closed when it should be open, they do offer at least midweek days at K in the past.  But only during Pico's stated seasonal dates.

Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## cdskier (Sep 21, 2018)

What drjeff said matches my memory as well. It is an exception in certain circumstances, but not the rule.


----------



## urungus (Sep 21, 2018)

Thanks for the insights.  Not sure I am going to pull the trigger on the Pico pass although I am hoping to be there a few times this season, went there 3 times last year and really liked the winding trails from the peak.  Not sure I’ll ever get the nerve to ski the old Poma line though.


----------



## mister moose (Sep 21, 2018)

Pico has been offering advance unrestricted tickets in the fall, last year was in the $45 ballpark, I forget the exact amount.  Last year Killington's ($69) had to be ordered by October 12th, whereas this year they haven't even announced them yet.  If you know you want to ski Pico a few times this season I'd watch for those.


----------



## urungus (Sep 22, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Pico has been offering advance unrestricted tickets in the fall, last year was in the $45 ballpark, I forget the exact amount.  Last year Killington's ($69) had to be ordered by October 12th, whereas this year they haven't even announced them yet.  If you know you want to ski Pico a few times this season I'd watch for those.



Thanks I will keep an eye out


----------

