# Thoughts on Killington's shortened season (expected closing day is 4/13/2008)?



## Greg (Jun 22, 2007)

Lots of talk on the elevated pass prices. What about the plan to close on April 13? Please discuss.


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## dmc (Jun 22, 2007)

There's really no reason for left for me to go to killington anymore.. I'll just drive the extra time to Sugarbush..


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2007)

I think this is going to be a very long thread.


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## andyzee (Jun 22, 2007)

Is this a trick question?


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## Vortex (Jun 22, 2007)

Aw. Early and late seson was the only reason I ever went to K.


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## Greg (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I think this is going to be a very long thread.



Just chummin' up the waters...


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## nycskier (Jun 22, 2007)

It's awful and a big part of why for the 1st time in 3 years I am not planning on buying a pass at Killington. 

The reason I choose Killington over other closer mountains was because of the long season. I knew they would be the 1st to open and the last to close.

I like to ski Killington early and late in the season because that's when their conditions are WAY better than any other nearby resorts.

I skied 22 days at Killington this year (20 day on my pass and 1 blackout day for $20 discount ticket with my pass). 4 of those days were AFTER 4/13!!!!

Closing in Mid-April means Killington will not be blowing monster amounts of snow to keep the place open late. That means late March and early April skiing could be piss poor.

One of the hopes was the new owners would return Killington to being the Beast of the East. This to me shows they plan to break with the traditions of the pass and throw away what makes Killington unique.

What does it say when freak'n Hunter could have a longer ski season the Killington?

Horrible message for the new owners to send to loyal Killington skiers.


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## Marc (Jun 22, 2007)

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Killington.


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## ctenidae (Jun 22, 2007)

Makes little difference to me, personally- never been a big fan of Killington, anyway. Every time I've gone, it's been less than enjoyable. I'd rather go to Snow at that distance.

Though, it does go against the Killington ideal of open early, close late. Could be Powdr getting bad news in early, then they'll be heroes for staying open later than projected.

Overall, I give it a "meh"


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## dmc (Jun 22, 2007)

nycskier said:


> What does it say when freak'n Hunter could have a longer ski season the Killington?



That they make great snow? 

And it's not only just Hunter..  there's a few more that go further..


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## andyzee (Jun 22, 2007)

Powdr gives you lemons, go to Tux.


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2007)

nycskier said:


> What does it say when freak'n Hunter could have a longer ski season the Killington?



freakin' Hunter!

The original managers of Killington LEARNED to make snow from the Slutskys and ex-Hunter snowmaking personnel.

Hunter always has a deep manmade base every season.

I'm shocked you find it hard to believe that Hunter could rival K for length of season. There was snow top to bottom on Racer's as late as Killington's closing date THIS PAST SEASON.

I could see the fuss if this were the 90's when K opened in early October and stayed open until 6/1 the earliest, but the real days of the extended season ended around 2000.


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## Greg (Jun 22, 2007)

dmc said:


> And it's not only just Hunter..  there's a few more that go further..



Right. I'm not basing this on anything concrete; total speculation, but I think Mount Snow is going to make a run at an extended season this year. They have the downloading capability and I just get that vibe from Peak.


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## Greg (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I could see the fuss if this were the 90's when K opened in early October and stayed open until 6/1 the earliest, but the real days of the extended season ended around 2000.



Yeah, but that's the point. ASC scaled it back to early-November to mid-May. Many hoped the new owners would head back to the 7-8 month season. Instead, it's getting cut back even more. I can see how many loyal K skiers would feel slighted. How would you feel if Hunter decided to cut their snowmaking output? At least Killington has been up front about it since the pass announcement.


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2007)

Greg said:


> Yeah, but that's the point. ASC scaled it back to early-November to mid-May. Many hoped the new owners would head back to the 7-8 month season. Instead, it's getting cut back even more. I can see how many loyal K skiers would feel slighted. How would you feel if Hunter decided to cut their snowmaking output? At least Killington has been up front about it since the pass announcement.



I'm missing something...please let me in on whatever it is that got anyone associated with Killington into the mindset to hope the new owners to do anything about lengthening the season? I mean, the season got shorter every year, but it was still amongst the longest.

I could see hoping they might do something about the food, but there was nothing at all in place to indicate a longer season was to be hoped for. Nothing.

Hunter has improved snowmaking capacity/capability every year for the past 15 or so. I mean, to me it's overkill already. So the current owners need not impress me with any more. Now if they cut back suddenly and drastically, that would anger me. They have cut back on later season snowmaking, but really, it's not necessary. It would be nice though.

But I don't recall POWDR ever saying anything about extending the season and anyone who has been following should have expected this. I mean, it's not like they said they would and are now backtracking.


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## Greg (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I'm missing something...please let me in on whatever it is that got anyone associsted with Killington into the mindset to hope the new owners to do anything about lengthening the season? I mean, the season got shorter every year, but it was still amongst the longest.
> 
> I could see hoping they might do something about the food, but there was nothing at all in place to indicate a longer season was to be hoped for. Nothing.



Okay. How about at least maintaining lift-serviced into May?


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2007)

Greg said:


> Okay. How about at least maintaining lift-serviced into May?



Is 2 weeks enough to keep the LOYAL Killington skier away? This is the question I am looking forward to answering when the season starts. There are 2 families on my oldest son's soccer team who own up at K...there every weekend as much as possible. Both have been owners for over a decade. Kids are in racing programs. Their hopes:

1) Better and cheaper food.
2) More reasonable day ticket rates so that their friends would want to go there.

When I ask either about the extended season, the replies are the same...ain't happening.
I'm going to ask them both about closing 2 weeks earlier. I doubt either will care. They both plan on being at K again next season.


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## 2knees (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I could see the fuss if this were the 90's when K opened in early October and stayed open until 6/1 the earliest, but the real days of the extended season ended around 2000.




not to split hairs but their early may closings have only happened the last two years.  As a matter of fact, they made it to memorial day as recently as 02/03 and june 1st as recently has 00/01.  The only reason i'm even bringing this up is that an april 13th closing is exceptionally early when put into play against those dates.  However, it certainly is well within their rights to try to run a profitable business and if that means earlier closings,  so be it.  I dont like it, but thats because i really enjoyed skiing superstar in may.  The furor over the pass increase is perplexing to me in that people had to know that wasnt going to last.


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## nycskier (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I could see the fuss if this were the 90's when K opened in early October and stayed open until 6/1 the earliest, but the real days of the extended season ended around 2000.



JimG, the hope was that with Killington raising pass prices by 70% adding and 40% more blackout days to their pass they would give something back by returning to late season skiing. Granted the last couple of yeaars the early close was either weather (or sale of mountian related). But they still managed to stay open to mid May. Now the new owners are committed closing in mid April.

What happens if we get late snow again this year? Will Killington be closed (like Stratton and Mad River was) in late April with tons of snow on the mountain?

This is a break with what Killington used to be about and a raw deal for Killington skiers


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2007)

2knees said:


> not to split hairs but their early may closings have only happened the last two years.  As a matter of fact, they made it to memorial day as recently as 02/03 and june 1st as recently has 00/01.  The only reason i'm even bringing this up is that an april 13th closing is exceptionally early when put into play against those dates.  However, it certainly is well within their rights to try to run a profitable business and if that means earlier closings,  so be it.  I dont like it, but thats because i really enjoyed skiing superstar in may.  The furor over the pass increase is perplexing to me in that people had to know that wasnt going to last.



Close enough and it's clear you got my drift.


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## dmc (Jun 22, 2007)

2knees said:


> The furor over the pass increase is perplexing to me in that people had to know that wasnt going to last.




Right... It's entitlement...  
i bought that bronze pass the first year.... And they opened late and closed early and screwed me over...  I'm pissed but it was a risk that I lost.


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## JimG. (Jun 22, 2007)

nycskier said:


> JimG, the hope was that with Killington raising pass prices by 70% adding and 40% more blackout days to their pass they would give something back by returning to late season skiing. Granted the last couple of yeaars the early close was either weather (or sale of mountian related). But they still managed to stay open to mid May. Now the new owners are committed closing in mid April.
> 
> What happens if we get late snow again this year? Will Killington be closed (like Stratton and Mad River was) in late April with tons of snow on the mountain?
> 
> This is a break with what Killington used to be about and a raw deal for Killington skiers



I understand your reasoning, but I still don't see where your hope came from...are you telling me that the higher season pass prices inspired it? Give something back? I don't get that, really. The mountain is in sore shape and needs improvements...how can they do that by raising prices and then giving back?

nyc, I'm not trying to pick a fight...I'm trying to bring the discussion into a circle that includes skier demands and business realities.


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## mlctvt (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Is 2 weeks enough to keep the LOYAL Killington skier away? This is the question I am looking forward to answering when the season starts. There are 2 families on my oldest son's soccer team who own up at K...there every weekend as much as possible. Both have been owners for over a decade. Kids are in racing programs. Their hopes:
> 
> 1) Better and cheaper food.
> 2) More reasonable day ticket rates so that their friends would want to go there.
> ...



I think you're right about this, most people even property owners just don't care about the extended season, especially the end of the season. I own a condo at Mount Snow and one of Mount Snow's management told me that visits really drop off after mid March. This came up in discussion about the possibility of staying open later in the season. I witnessed that myself this year. Excellent conditions in late March and early April and many of the condos in my complex were empty. My next door neighbors who rented for the season weren't there at all after March 18th. I think many people just move on to other things or kid's sports after mid-March. I think if late season skier visits increased more areas would stay open later.


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## SkiDog (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> freakin' Hunter!
> 
> The original managers of Killington LEARNED to make snow from the Slutskys and ex-Hunter snowmaking personnel.
> 
> ...



Personally I agree that Hunter lays down a great product year after year...however I believe, personally, that they lack the terrain diversity that Killington has....Killington is HUGE...its just being and been mismanaged for far too long...

Doenst look like POWDR wants to change this, only make it worse...oh well..glad I moved WEST..

M


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## andyzee (Jun 22, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Personally I agree that Hunter lays down a great product year after year...however I believe, personally, that they lack the terrain diversity that Killington has....Killington is HUGE...its just being and been mismanaged for far too long...
> 
> Doenst look like POWDR wants to change this, only make it worse...oh well..glad I moved WEST..
> 
> M


 
You still live in Utah?


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## SkiDog (Jun 22, 2007)

andyzee said:


> You still live in Utah?



Umm yeah....why????


I DO however still own a condo in Killington

M


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## nycskier (Jun 22, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I understand your reasoning, but I still don't see where your hope came from...are you telling me that the higher season pass prices inspired it? Give something back? I don't get that, really. The mountain is in sore shape and needs improvements...how can they do that by raising prices and then giving back?
> 
> nyc, I'm not trying to pick a fight...I'm trying to bring the discussion into a circle that includes skier demands and business realities.



JimG, I know you are not picking a fight. Never thought you were!

If they are charging more I want to know that they are putting more into the mountain. I want to know they will blow more snow, upgrade facilities or build the interconnect. Obviously interconnect or new lifts won't happen next year so I can overlook that, but increasing man made snow IS something they can do. Telling us they plan to close mid April tells me there will be no upgrading of snow making vs last year.

Now compare this to a Bronze A41 passholder whose home mountain was Mount Snow. Snow offered an early pass for $399 (vs $365 last year), with LESS blackout days than the A41 pass had last year. Also Peaks put $3.5 million into an upgrade their snowmaking.

What do Killington passholders get? No upgrades, 70% higher prices, more blackouts and a shorter season. 

This is why Killington skiers are upset and this is why a lot of us will take our business elsewhere next year.


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## SkiDog (Jun 22, 2007)

nycskier said:


> JimG, I know you are not picking a fight. Never thought you were!
> 
> If they are charging more I want to know that they are putting more into the mountain. I want to know they will blow more snow, upgrade facilities or build the interconnect. Obviously interconnect or new lifts won't happen next year so I can overlook that, but increasing man made snow IS something they can do. Telling us they plan to close mid April tells me there will be no upgrading of snow making vs last year.
> 
> ...



NY is right on...Nyberg talks about all the "improvements" they are going to do, but will likely be "unseen" since they are all bull...painting lodges.....etc. Nyberg also talks about how they'll spend more this year than ASC has in past 2 years...but duh....you'll have the increased revenue from selling higher priced passes AND a shorter season..you'd better spend more..

Killington DOES NOT NEED FANCY LODGES...ITS ABOUT BEING THE BEAST OF THE EAST...and that it....Killington fanatics could care about nothing more than that.

M


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## awf170 (Jun 22, 2007)

ctenidae said:


> Overall, I give it a "meh"



I give it a "haha".


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## kingslug (Jun 22, 2007)

I imagine more people might head to the Bush. I was thinking of spending more time up north and K was going to be the place, and it still might be. Late season, The Bush.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 22, 2007)

Greg said:


> Just chummin' up the waters...



Like ya did over at EpicSki? :wink:


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## Greg (Jun 22, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Like ya did over at EpicSki? :wink:



Nope. Over there I was just flaming Highway Star... :lol:


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## millerm277 (Jun 22, 2007)

Well, as I've said at K-zone...

The late and early season was what defined K, getting rid of it eliminates that one thing that was still keeping K above the rest. I can no longer think of any reasons to go to K, unless they really make a lot of snow on stuff like Devil's Fiddle and Ovation...

I'll buy a pass this year, but I think I'll be leaving after this year if they don't turn things around.


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## shpride (Jun 23, 2007)

The only time me and my friends went to Killington was early and late season.  That is 6-7 people at 4 days each in lost revenue.  There are probably a lot of groups like us in lost revenue.


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## dmc (Jun 23, 2007)

shpride said:


> The only time me and my friends went to Killington was early and late season.  That is 6-7 people at 4 days each in lost revenue.  There are probably a lot of groups like us in lost revenue.



We had a whole crew from Hunter that would rent a giant house at KMart for April and May back in the day..  We'd have 15 or more a weekend..  Spent tons of cash locally..
Feel sorry for the business owners..


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## nycskier (Jun 23, 2007)

dmc said:


> We had a whole crew from Hunter that would rent a giant house at KMart for April and May back in the day..  We'd have 15 or more a weekend..  Spent tons of cash locally..
> Feel sorry for the business owners..



The local business owners are going to be the ones that are hurt most. Less people going to Killington plus the building of a village to compete with their business wont be good for them.


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## Geoff (Jun 24, 2007)

nycskier said:


> The local business owners are going to be the ones that are hurt most. Less people going to Killington plus the building of a village to compete with their business wont be good for them.



If I were a ski shop owner on the Access Road, I'd be reducing my inventory orders by 20%.  All those people skiing on cheap passes bought an awful lot of gear.

I don't think the village is going to happen for years.  There is a glut of unsold condo inventory at Killington today.  Prices have dropped 10-15% over the last year.  That is not the time to break ground on a village.  

The announced shortened season has me seriously thinking about selling my Killington condo and moving to Sugarloaf.  I suffer through the midwinter Killington B.S. because they historically have offered superb spring skiing with top to bottom into early May before they shrink the mountain to one lift and a few trails.  If there isn't a dramatic improvement in their midwinter product, I see no reason to stick around.  For the 07-08 season, Killington is on double-secret probation.


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2007)

I have to agree with Geoff, I see a business model that will fail. I have always believed that one of ASC biggest problems was investing too much in areas other than skiing, lodging, stores, etc..... SP and Powdr seem to want to take it one step further, I give them 5 years tops before they fail. It's just unfortunate that the local economy will suffer during this period.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 24, 2007)

I agree with both of the above comments but I think SP Land is still gonna try to propose and build a village/slopeside lodging at the base. That's why they bought the land a few years ago and that's what they think is one big thing kmart is missing compared to the competition like Stratton, Okemo and Sugarbush. I can only assume from their perspective that by the time it's actually built,  their betting the real estate market will have turned around from where it is today. 

From their thinking the hope is that a business on the access road might decrease their inventory but they hope they can sell stuff more pointed to the upscale market with better margins. 

When Otten proposed building a 750m village at the base about 8 years ago the local business community was ready to fight it. It quickly fell off the table back then but here it is again and I am sure they will want to fight it again. 

Everyone seems to think that they have all the Act 250 permits already in hand from the first go-around....me,  I'm not so sure about that.


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## Breeze (Jun 24, 2007)

As Real Estate Speculation has  become a leper's lesion , someone, somewhere is going to realize that  building more and marketing to a unique " upscale" market is a one way street, all bucks to  their coveted  pockets  with no orts or leavings  for  long-standing communites

Just the word " upscale" puts my teeth on edge.   Upscale folks get dressed the same way I do.  Upscale Marketing is patently disrespectful of Local Investment no matter  where  the dressing room. 

Sure, great, bring on the McMansions,  buy it,  build it.   Use   dollar power to change the tax valuation for small   towns, change their education funding formula, rearrange the hopes and visions and investments of local residents for the good of ......   yada yada yada ....   Someone Not Local.

Guess I'm in bitch mode tonight.   


Breeze


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## andyzee (Jun 24, 2007)

Breeze said:


> Guess I'm in bitch mode tonight.
> 
> 
> Breeze


 
No, I would say astute mode.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 24, 2007)

Well, I'm probably not a typical eastern skier, but this year I'm unwilling to travel north and pay a premium to ski on man made snow unless there is a strong economic (stratton snowdayz + cheap magic ticket) or social reason. We will go to Wildcat for at least one holiday weekend this year--our way of encouraging them to repeat lasts year's epic late season run. Other ski trips will be last minute based upon impending blizzards or we will wait until April to spend the rest of our budget. This makes a trip to K much less likely than to Stowe or S'Bush. I'd like to visit K one day, but there are enough great mountains in New England that I plan on having a great April and May.

On a side note, the Smart Car being available in early spring will make spring skiing even more affordable! Kick ass.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2007)

I've said it on K-Zone, but Killington is special because of the draw it's image created....that image was focusing on skiing and riding.  SKI was in the ski/snowboard business.  Not in real estate.  For those that have read Lorentz's book, she discusses the innovations that Pres Smith and others made in the ski business, and details how they focused on the skiing aspect.  There is little or no talk about real estate.  Yeah they built some condos, but Pres Smith never built the village.  In 2007 it is still not there.  Did that make them less of a ski area?  Not at all.  

What we have going here with SP Lands, and with ASC, was primarily a real estate business with real estate people trying to run a ski area.  Now that works in some places, but real estate people know how to build and market real estate.  They don't know or really care as much about skiing and riding.  That is an amenity.  Period.  Same thing is happening with Burke...the focus is on the real estate.  By now Burke was supposed to have more snowmaking, more HSQ's, etc.  But the company is pouring their $$$ into real estate planning.    

Killington has always been about the skiing and riding.  SKI poured their resources into it.  They made it work.  The ski industry is tough, but people are making money in it....look at Peak Resorts.  They are only now getting into the real estate portion...before it was only skiing and riding.  

A November-April season works if you are treating skiing as only an amenity that you are offering.  When it is not your central business, then it does not matter.  The only thing is that they don't realize that for Killington skiing has been the central attraction.  Take it away and you don't really have much else.....


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

thetrailboss said:


> I've said it on K-Zone, but Killington is special because of the draw it's image created....that image was focusing on skiing and riding.  SKI was in the ski/snowboard business.  Not in real estate.  For those that have read Lorentz's book, she discusses the innovations that Pres Smith and others made in the ski business, and details how they focused on the skiing aspect.  There is little or no talk about real estate.  Yeah they built some condos, but Pres Smith never built the village.  In 2007 it is still not there.  Did that make them less of a ski area?  Not at all.
> 
> What we have going here with SP Lands, and with ASC, was primarily a real estate business with real estate people trying to run a ski area.  Now that works in some places, but real estate people know how to build and market real estate.  They don't know or really care as much about skiing and riding.  That is an amenity.  Period.  Same thing is happening with Burke...the focus is on the real estate.  By now Burke was supposed to have more snowmaking, more HSQ's, etc.  But the company is pouring their $$$ into real estate planning.
> 
> ...



I like this post.

You know, alot of people don't like Hunter because of a perceived and real lack of amenities. And even though Hunter is doing some real estate development, I doubt there will ever be villages or McMansions there.

Because Hunter still emphasizes snowmaking and skiing over the other business models.
I think there are alot of people here who would like skiing at Hunter if they came open minded and gave it a chance.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I like this post.
> 
> You know, alot of people don't like Hunter because of a perceived and real lack of amenities. And even though Hunter is doing some real estate development, I doubt there will ever be villages or McMansions there.
> 
> ...



Thanks.  It is the :roll: reality of the situation.  We just need to focus on places where skiing and riding is still the focus.  MRG and Hunter are good examples.


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2007)

thetrailboss said:


> *MRG *and Hunter are good examples.



Am I mistaken or is someone seriously leaning towards the Triple Major now?


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## nycskier (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I like this post.
> 
> You know, alot of people don't like Hunter because of a perceived and real lack of amenities. And even though Hunter is doing some real estate development, I doubt there will ever be villages or McMansions there.
> 
> ...



JimG, I like Thetrailboss' post too. I think he was right on.

I can't see how people complain about the amenities at Hunter. I always thought they had a great lodge and nearby Tannersville has some nice resturants and bars.

You gotta to love The Last Chance Antiques & Cheese Cafe!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> Am I mistaken or is someone seriously leaning towards the Triple Major now?




Man, someone has become the MRG cheerleader!!!!!   :lol: :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2007)

In hindsight, I guess those skiers and riders should have gotten behind the modern version of this guy:







And invested in forming an entity to buy Killington and run it as a ski area.  Right now it is owned by a real estate company (which is part of a private investment group IIRC).  So their focus:  real estate and $$$.


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

nycskier said:


> JimG, I like Thetrailboss' post too. I think he was right on.
> 
> I can't see how people complain about the amenities at Hunter. I always thought they had a great lodge and nearby Tannersville has some nice resturants and bars.
> 
> You gotta to love The Last Chance Antiques & Cheese Cafe!



Well, truthfully, the lodge is dated and has the ambience of an airplane hangar. But the food is good, there is a Sushi bar, and there's always a strong apres ski contingent. And there are a few decent eateries (Last Chance is one) if you know where to go. 

But Hunter will never be mistaken for a resort destination...and I hope it stays that way. It is what it is...a daytrip mountain for the NYC masses.


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Well, truthfully, the lodge is dated and has the ambience of an airplane hangar. But the food is good...



Agreed! I think the Hunter cafe food is far better than most places. The bacon cheeseburger and fries always satisfy.


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> Agreed! I think the Hunter cafe food is far better than most places. The bacon cheeseburger and fries always satisfy.



When I took my trees/steeps clinic this past March, an instructor from Windham was in my group. She was a strong skier and I asked her if she ever got over to Hunter. She perked right up and said she does as often as she can. Better terrain and she made special mention of the food. 

It's simple but good. Although I have heard a few folks complain about the burgers making them sick.


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## nycskier (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Well, truthfully, the lodge is dated and has the ambience of an airplane hangar. But the food is good, there is a Sushi bar, and there's always a strong apres ski contingent. And there are a few decent eateries (Last Chance is one) if you know where to go.
> 
> But Hunter will never be mistaken for a resort destination...and I hope it stays that way. It is what it is...a daytrip mountain for the NYC masses.



Exactly. Hunter is commuter mountian and the people who run it are smart enough to know that! 

They never try to make Hunter into something it is not, which is what seems to be happening at Killington.

Closing in mid-April is not The Beast of the East and NOT what Killington is about.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 25, 2007)

nycskier said:


> Exactly. Hunter is commuter mountian and the people who run it are smart enough to know that!
> 
> They never try to make Hunter into something it is not, which is what seems to be happening at Killington.
> 
> Closing in mid-April is not The Beast of the East and NOT what Killington is about.



Staying open long was what distinguished Killington from other mountains.  It was what made it special.  Without it, it becomes another mountain.  Or to spoof what they ran for ads two years ago, another "McMountain."


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

nycskier said:


> They never try to make Hunter into something it is not, which is what seems to be happening at Killington.
> 
> Closing in mid-April is not The Beast of the East and NOT what Killington is about.



There are an awful lot of skiers who go to VT ski areas who don't care about any of that though. I'm not going to mention specific areas but the clientele who visits those places doesn't care about the raw skiing end of the equation. 

You and I go to a ski area to ski. These folks go to a mountain resort to rest and relax and maybe take a few runs, in between a gourmet lunch and cocktails at 2:30pm in the business center/lounge.

That's the business POWDR/SP wants.


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> There are an awful lot of skiers who go to VT ski areas who don't care about any of that though. I'm not going to mention specific areas but the clientele who visits those places doesn't care about the raw skiing end of the equation.
> 
> You and I go to a ski area to ski. These folks go to a mountain resort to rest and relax and maybe take a few runs, in between a gourmet lunch and cocktails at 2:30pm in the business center/lounge.
> 
> That's the business POWDR/SP wants.


 
You can find this at Okemo and Stratton who do it well. Why travel even further north to a place with tougher terrain? If they do indeed pursue this model, I give Powdr 5 years before they sell Killington.


----------



## threecy (Jun 25, 2007)

I don't necessarily see this as bad news for skiers.  If there truly is late season demand, Sugarbush and Wildcat should be able to pick up the skier visits and extend their operations.  Since these are much better ski areas in terms of terrain (and facilities at this point), it's probably a good thing!


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

threecy said:


> Sugarbush and Wildcat should be able to pick up the skier visits and  Since these are much better ski areas in terms of terrain



Wow thats quite a bold statement...I dont think Sugarbush OR Wildcat can touch Killington in terms of diversity of terrain....I dont think Killingtons terrain has EVER been the issue..PLUS i know for one I wouldnt be driving 7+hrs to get to Wildcat for May (or whatever late season) turns....just not worth it.

M


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> I dont think *Sugarbush *OR Wildcat can touch Killington in terms of diversity of terrain...



Now _that's_ what I would call a bold statement. For me, Killington can't hold a candle to the terrain at Sugarbush. Throw MRG in there and even debating it enters into silly territory.


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## threecy (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> PLUS i know for one I wouldnt be driving 7+hrs to get to Wildcat for May (or whatever late season) turns....just not worth it.
> 
> M



Note that I list both of them - Wildcat for the Beantown market and Sugarbush for the NY market.

In terms of top to bottom runs, Killington does not come close to Sugarbush.  Killington is a glorified mid-sized ski area, connected by an abundance of crossovers and otherwise useless lifts.

Wildcat may not have the top to bottom novice terrain or tough expert terrain that K-Mart has, but the terrain they do offer is much more interesting and scenic - and served by a 6 minute, 2000' vertical high speed quad.


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> Throw MRG in there and even debating it enters into silly territory.




IF they get snow...and thats a HUGE IF.....what wouldve happened this past season early if you were a MRG pass holder???? Hmmmmmmm....sorry....consistent product is what Killington offers..

And....OBVIOUSLY...noones EVER taken you into the "unmarked" trees at Killington..

There are MANY MANY unmarked places at K that simply blow away The Bush and Wildcat...

I will agree though that Wildcat has the best views around....but i'm not skiing for views...sorry..

M


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Wow thats quite a bold statement...I dont think Sugarbush OR Wildcat can touch Killington in terms of diversity of terrain....I dont think Killingtons terrain has EVER been the issue..PLUS i know for one I wouldnt be driving 7+hrs to get to Wildcat for May (or whatever late season) turns....just not worth it.
> 
> M



I would disagree in both cases...Sugarbush has just as broad a selection of runs as Killington and more continuous vertical. And while Wildcat doesn't have as many trails, it has a nice diversity and again, more continuous vertical.

Someone mentioned that Wildcat doesn't have tough expert terrain; maybe not on the map, but step into the trees and there are a multitude of tough lines.


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> And....OBVIOUSLY...noones EVER taken you into the "unmarked" trees at Killington..



...which are probably great IF they get the snow...


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

threecy said:


> In terms of top to bottom runs, Killington does not come close to Sugarbush.  Killington is a glorified mid-sized ski area, connected by an abundance of crossovers and otherwise useless lifts.
> 
> Wildcat the terrain they do offer is much more interesting and scenic



Top to bottom is fine and all...but I want a challenge...The Bush just doesnt offer that challenge....IMHO...not compared to Killington.

I will however agree that Wildcat has the best scenery in the East for ski areas....though.. I dont ski for views..  ;-)

M


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

Greg said:


> ...which are probably great IF they get the snow...



Touche...

But I believe the final snow total marker at Killington this past year stood at 294"...nicely fills in any gaps that the trees might have.

M


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Touche...
> 
> But I believe the final snow total marker at Killington this past year stood at 294"...nicely fills in any gaps that the trees might have.
> 
> M


 
I was just going to say the same thing "touche", Greg came up with a good one! :lol:


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I would disagree in both cases...Sugarbush has just as broad a selection of runs as Killington and more continuous vertical. And while Wildcat doesn't have as many trails, it has a nice diversity and again, more continuous vertical.
> 
> Someone mentioned that Wildcat doesn't have tough expert terrain; maybe not on the map, but step into the trees and there are a multitude of tough lines.



Continuous vert doesnt make it any better IMHO...it has to be CHALLENGING CONTINUOUS VERT......want continuous vert thats long at Killington..Take great eastern.....but talk about BORING.....

I'll agree Killington isnt what it once was in terms of management...but man....have you guys looked at a trail map EVER?? The place is huge....noone comes close.

M


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## Greg (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Touche...
> 
> But I believe the final snow total marker at Killington this past year stood at 294"...nicely fills in any gaps that the trees might have.
> 
> M



The MRV did well too. Doubtful many MRG season pass holders were disappointed.


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## Newpylong (Jun 25, 2007)

Sugarbush is hands down the best mountain in the east for EVERYTHING. When I went to school there in the 90's I kept telling everyone this, but it wasn't "cool" yet to go there. Groomers, trees, bumps, and steeps, and good lifts to get you there. I wouldn't even debate this with anyone.  Minus apres ski of course, hehe.


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Continuous vert doesnt make it any better IMHO...it has to be CHALLENGING CONTINUOUS VERT......want continuous vert thats long at Killington..Take great eastern.....but talk about BORING.....
> 
> I'll agree Killington isnt what it once was in terms of management...but man....have you guys looked at a trail map EVER?? The place is huge....noone comes close.
> 
> M



HUGE doesn't do it for me any more than continous vertical does for you. And exactly what is so tough about any of the on map trails at K? Go run laps on Stein's or the Mall at Sugarbush and tell me there's anything about those 2 trails any different from the tough expert trails at K. You'll probably say SB has nothing like Devil's Fiddle to which I would come back with Liftline or Rumble at Castlerock...nothing like those 2 at K.


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2007)

Two words, Mountain Creek.


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

Im sure this has been posted here but....according to this site 
http://verticalfeet.com/

The Bush doesnt come close in terms of Vertical...and Wildcat isnt even listed...

M


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> HUGE doesn't do it for me any more than continous vertical does for you. And exactly what is so tough about any of the on map trails at K? Go run laps on Stein's or the Mall at Sugarbush and tell me there's anything about those 2 trails any different from the tough expert trails at K. You'll probably say SB has nothing like Devil's Fiddle to which I would come back with Liftline or Rumble at Castlerock...nothing like those 2 at K.



Im not saying the Bush doesnt have terrain thats "expert"....I just dont think it has anywhere near as much diversity as K.....I would use the fiddle as an example in a good snow year for sure....not much else like it in the east....

M


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## RIDEr (Jun 25, 2007)

So, who wants to admit from AZ or K-Zone the production of this mass email....

:flame::uzi:



> *Dear Killington Passholders and Northeastern Region Skiers,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Im not saying the Bush doesnt have terrain thats "expert"....I just dont think it has anywhere near as much diversity as K.....I would use the fiddle as an example in a good snow year for sure....not much else like it in the east....
> 
> M



So, like if I knew this guy who moved out to Utah who owned a condo at Killington who probably wants to sell it that I should buy the condo because K is the best place to ski?


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2007)

I thought it was Highway Star


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> So, like if I knew this guy who moved out to Utah who owned a condo at Killington who probably wants to sell it that I should buy the condo because K is the best place to ski?




Good one Jim...jerk.. ;-)

Not selling it....family still lives east and gets plenty of use out of it...might CONSIDER selling it if they ever build that "village"....shoot...its already appreciated a TON, so im not losing on that one ;-)

And K aint the best...but its one of the greats in the east without a doubt...management issues aside....

M


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## WWF-VT (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Im sure this has been posted here but....according to this site
> http://verticalfeet.com/
> 
> The Bush doesnt come close in terms of Vertical...and Wildcat isnt even listed...
> ...




Killington 3050'  , Sugarbush 2650'

I think it's been covered here too may times that Killington has multiple 1500' peaks and the 3050' is clever marketing.

Mt Ellen at Sugarbush is a legitimate 2600 from the summit to the base lodge


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2007)

RIDEr said:


> So, who wants to admit from AZ or K-Zone the production of this mass email....
> 
> :flame::uzi:



I don't know if it's someone from here, but it's clear that somebody has alot of time on their hands. 

Let me get this straight...ASC screws Killington up, bails out and goes bankrupt, and the logical reaction is to go after the new owners who want to make changes to what is generally accepted to be a bad situation? I know, everyone is for change unless the change affects them, then it's war.

I do not believe this militant type of reaction is typical of the Killington regular.


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I don't know if it's someone from here, but it's clear that somebody has alot of time on their hands.
> 
> Let me get this straight...ASC screws Killington up, bails out and goes bankrupt, and the logical reaction is to go after the new owners who want to make changes to what is generally accepted to be a bad situation? I know, everyone is for change unless the change affects them, then it's war.
> 
> I do not believe this militant type of reaction is typical of the Killington regular.


 
So, what are you saying, you think it riverc0il?


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

WWF-VT said:


> Killington 3050'  , Sugarbush 2650'
> 
> I think it's been covered here too may times that Killington has multiple 1500' peaks and the 3050' is clever marketing.
> 
> Mt Ellen at Sugarbush is a legitimate 2600 from the summit to the base lodge



If you go look at that site I listed it CLEARLY states the resorts where the vertical is NOT ACTUAL....

NOTE Killington is NOT ONE OF THOSE RESORTS..

We are not talking about "tough" or "expert" vertical....we are talking about total vertical..I think like Great Northern or one of those long windy top to bottom beginner trails is the TOTAL 3050 vertical.

Lest anyone think different..KILLINGTON IS THE HIGHEST LIFT SERVED RESORT IN NEW ENGLAND.

Argue all you want, but its to no avail.

M


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 25, 2007)

I think HS said over at kzone he didn't do it but complained that alot of it's content was lifted from his past posts. He is very humble and appreciates opinions that do not agree with his own. I also heard he is the greatest skier on the planet so he obviously knows what he's talking about.   Oops, excuse me, I think I have to go hurl, must have been something I ate.
:wink:


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I think HS said over at kzone he didn't do it but complained that alot of it's content was lifted from his past posts. He is very humble and appreciates opinions that do not agree with his own. I also heard he is the greatest skier on the planet so he obviously knows what he's talking about.   Oops, excuse me, I think I have to go hurl, must have been something I ate.
> :wink:



Simple statement...

"Mandatory GS Turns"

M


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## WWF-VT (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> If you go look at that site I listed it CLEARLY states the resorts where the vertical is NOT ACTUAL....
> 
> NOTE Killington is NOT ONE OF THOSE RESORTS..
> 
> ...



From the web site - http://verticalfeet.com/ - here is what they are listing:

Accurate Lift-served Vertical Feet Totals 
For Most North American Ski Areas and Resorts 
Includes total, lift-served* and continuous vertical**

It did not say "KILLINGTON IS THE HIGHEST LIFT SERVED RESORT IN NEW ENGLAND"


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

WWF-VT said:


> From the web site - http://verticalfeet.com/ - here is what they are listing:
> 
> Accurate Lift-served Vertical Feet Totals
> For Most North American Ski Areas and Resorts
> ...




Ummm no I never said that site said that..I said that site has the TRUE vertical listed...

As for them being the highest lift served...thats ALL OVER...should I start listing the various sites NOT KILLINGTON owned that say that??? The list will be LONG..

Umm yeah I think the Killington Peak is a little over 4000ft...the lift doesnt go that high anymore....but it comes VERY close...so....shall we continue?

M


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 25, 2007)

JimG. said:


> There are an awful lot of skiers who go to VT ski areas who don't care about any of that though. I'm not going to mention specific areas but the clientele who visits those places doesn't care about the raw skiing end of the equation.
> 
> You and I go to a ski area to ski. These folks go to a mountain resort to rest and relax and maybe take a few runs, in between a gourmet lunch and cocktails at 2:30pm in the business center/lounge.
> 
> That's the business POWDR/SP wants.



Bingo!


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## awf170 (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> IF they get snow...and thats a HUGE IF.....what wouldve happened this past season early if you were a MRG pass holder???? Hmmmmmmm....sorry....consistent product is what Killington offers..
> 
> And....OBVIOUSLY...noones EVER taken you into the "unmarked" trees at Killington..
> 
> ...



Blow away Sugarbush?  From what I can tell Sugarbush has ton of unmarked stuff.  The whole backside, the area inbetween the south and north, and the area between castlerock and heavens gates.  No way K-mart can compete with all that.  I think Sugarbush is one of the most overrated ski area in the east, but you have to agree that they have a ton of acreage. 



SkiDog said:


> Touche...
> 
> But I believe the final snow total marker at Killington this past year stood at 294"...nicely fills in any gaps that the trees might have.
> 
> M



MRG gets more snow than Killington. 



SkiDog said:


> Im not saying the Bush doesnt have terrain thats "expert"....I just dont think it has anywhere near as much diversity as K.....I would use the fiddle as an example in a good snow year for sure....not much else like it in the east....
> 
> M



The Fiddle looks awesome.  I will give you that one.



andyzee said:


> So, what are you saying, you think it riverc0il?



That's why he hasn't been posting much anymore!



SkiDog said:


> Simple statement...
> 
> "Mandatory GS Turns"
> 
> M



I like the mandatory GS turn idea.  I don't know if he can do it, but you have to admit it is the most radical way you can ski the trees.  That's basically what the Meatheads do.  I like HighwayStar... at least he doesn't think zipper-lining bumps kills them.


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## Newpylong (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Ummm no I never said that site said that..I said that site has the TRUE vertical listed...
> 
> As for them being the highest lift served...thats ALL OVER...should I start listing the various sites NOT KILLINGTON owned that say that??? The list will be LONG..
> 
> ...



What do you mean anymore? No lift ever went higher than they do now...


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

*[QUOTE="awf170, post: 169532, member: 1141"]Blow away Sugarbush?  From what I can tell Sugarbush has ton of*



awf170 said:


> MRG gets more snow that Killington.




Not this past season...yeah its close...Killington claims 294" and MRG claims 284" I think...so...while you're close its not on...not to mention both sites claim 250 avg so lets call it SAME AMOUNT...fair?

M


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

Newpylong said:


> What do you mean anymore? No lift ever went higher than they do now...




I thought the original chair went higher than the gondi????

Here I could be wrong, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are the HIGHEST lift served in New England..

M


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## awf170 (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Not this past season...yeah its close...Killington claims 294" and MRG claims 284" I think...so...while you're close its not on...not to mention both sites claim 250 avg so lets call it SAME AMOUNT...fair?
> 
> M



MRG doesn't inflate totals like everyone else.  Compare K-mart to Sugarbush.  Sugarbush 314" vs. K-mart 294".  The futher north you go in Vermont the more snow.  Jay gets the most, then stowe/bolton/smuggs, then MRV, then K-mart.


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## SkiDog (Jun 25, 2007)

awf170 said:


> MRG doesn't inflate totals like everyone else.  Compare K-mart to Sugarbush.  Sugarbush 314" vs. K-mart 294".  The futher north you go in Vermont the more snow.  Jay gets the most, then stowe/bolton/smuggs, then MRV, then K-mart.



All im going by is posted resort totals...

M


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## MikeTrainor (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> All im going by is posted resort totals...
> 
> M



I think this question was answered before. Some mountains only count the snow total during their operating time. Not snow in October or after they close. Others count all snow received for the year.

Also I would take Wildcat or Sugarbush over Killington any day. I don't understand why some people think Wildcat lacks diverse terrain or does not have some difficult runs.


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## andyzee (Jun 25, 2007)

Mountain Creek rules!


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## nycskier (Jun 25, 2007)

andyzee said:


> Two words, Mountain Creek.



LOL!!!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## nycskier (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> I thought the original chair went higher than the gondi????
> 
> Here I could be wrong, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are the HIGHEST lift served in New England..
> 
> M



The original chair was higher than the Gondi but about the same place as the current K1 gondi. If I am not mistaken the original Gondi let out at The Killington Peak Lodge and the chair lift let out slightly higher up where the K1 Gondi lets out now.


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## Newpylong (Jun 25, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> I thought the original chair went higher than the gondi????
> 
> Here I could be wrong, but it still doesn't change the fact that they are the HIGHEST lift served in New England..
> 
> M



Nope.. for all intents and purposes the old Gondola, the old peak chair, and the K1 all are at the same height. If anything, the K1 is higher than both of them used to be (it had to be set further back/up to house the terminal). But we're talking only 10's of feet.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 26, 2007)

JimG. said:


> ILet me get this straight...ASC screws Killington up, bails out and goes bankrupt, and the logical reaction is to go after the new owners who want to make changes to what is generally accepted to be a bad situation? I know, everyone is for change unless the change affects them, then it's war.



I reject this. The fact that an experienced industry player payed $80 million for this place precludes the possibility that K's operation is truely a bad situation. ASC geared up the balance sheet at high rates and couldn't escape;  Powd'r presumably expects to avoid the same debt obligations.

As for being opposed to change, a shorter season is going to negatively impact local businesses and passholder utility. It may also impact property values. It makes sense that stakeholders would try and influence Powd'r's behavior.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 26, 2007)

This probably has been said before, but, since I rationalize early closings for Whiteface the same way, I thought I'd post my .02 cents.

I completely understand why loyal Killington skiers would feel outraged by having something that they considered a given (super long seasons) taken away from them.  I don't agree with them, but I understand the anger one can feel when something one thinks one is entitled to is taken away.  I grew up thinking Killington was THE place for late-season skiing.  

But, for the VAST majority of skiers, including those who drive long distances to ski mid-winter, do they really care?  Do people really ski Killington in December - March instead of other areas because the season is longer at Killington?  Maybe some might think it demonstrates a committment to snowmaking, but I think it's common knowledge they only make the insane snow on Superstar....

Who drives 2 hours to ski in May?  Probably not many.  Locals do, obviously, but locals don't really bring in the big bucks (they don't stay in hotels, they're more apt to brown bag lunch (I do at WF), etc.).

Everyone seems to agree that Killington needs tons of money to upgrade its lifts and other equipment.  Where's this money supposed to come from?  I'm sure the new owners have studied skier traffic during various parts of the year and determined that the extra investment to keep the area open isn't worth it.  The new owners probably need a little bit of time running the place to figure out their game plan.  I'd be willing to give them a break.  They spent $86 million.  They can't be idiots, can they?  Then again, I hardly ever ski Killington.  So it's easy for me to say this.

I'd venture to guess that most of the people who ski Killington do so for the vast amount of terrain, and, for the weekenders and week-long vacationers, the pretty good nightlife and restaurants.  I just don't see that crowd choosing another resort in February because Killington isn't open in May.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> This probably has been said before, but, since I rationalize early closings for Whiteface the same way, I thought I'd post my .02 cents.
> 
> I completely understand why loyal Killington skiers would feel outraged by having something that they considered a given (super long seasons) taken away from them.  I don't agree with them, but I understand the anger one can feel when something one thinks one is entitled to is taken away.  I grew up thinking Killington was THE place for late-season skiing.



Here we go with the entitlement argument again....I think that this is a skewed POV of what is happening.  Folks don't agree with the fundamental shift in Killington's philosophy.  It is not really an argument as to what a skier/rider is entitled to... plus if you owned property at Killington, you might not have that POV.  Consider that.... 



> But, for the VAST majority of skiers, including those who drive long distances to ski mid-winter, do they really care?  Do people really ski Killington in December - March instead of other areas because the season is longer at Killington?  Maybe some might think it demonstrates a committment to snowmaking, but I think it's common knowledge they only make the insane snow on Superstar....



The long season was because SKI/Sherburne Corp. made its $$$ off of skiing.  So they needed to offer it longer than anyone else to create the Killington brand and to make it distinct.  You and I might be able to see what was going on, but it did work and most average skiers and riders DID react to the PR of having Killington opening early and closing late.  



> Who drives 2 hours to ski in May?  Probably not many.



In May of this year I saw a lot of NY, NJ, MA, CT plates....they drove from more than 2 hours.  Lots of folks come.  



> Locals do, obviously, but locals don't really bring in the big bucks (they don't stay in hotels, they're more apt to brown bag lunch (I do at WF), etc.).



Actually, "locals" do bring money to the mountains in the form of buying passes for their familes and skiing on days when "out of towners" don't.  They are also there year-round to support local businesses and the mountain.  So yes, they are very important.   In this case as well, with Act 250, having good town relations translates into fewer obstacles in the project review process....

I also think it is dangerous to make the stereotype of the "rich" outsider vs. the "poor" locals.  At the end of the day, Killington's neighbors are the ones who can make a big difference in things....



> Everyone seems to agree that Killington needs tons of money to upgrade its lifts and other equipment.  Where's this money supposed to come from?  I'm sure the new owners have studied skier traffic during various parts of the year and determined that the extra investment to keep the area open isn't worth it.  The new owners probably need a little bit of time running the place to figure out their game plan.  I'd be willing to give them a break.  They spent $86 million.  They can't be idiots, can they?  Then again, I hardly ever ski Killington.  So it's easy for me to say this.



They're not "idiots."  It's just that people are :angry: because this is not a skiing company that is focusing on skiing.  It is a real estate company focusing on developing and selling real estate.  AlpineZone is a place where skiers and riders chat, not where real estate moguls shoot the breeze....the interests are not much aligned now...

As for how they can raise $$$ to fund renovations of the resort, this company is relying on building a village and real estate because the ski area is an amenity for its visitors.  It is trying to broaden the "product" to be more than skiing....which runs counter to skiers/riders who think in terms of just skiing and riding.  



> I just don't see that crowd choosing another resort in February because Killington isn't open in May.



We can only wait and see....a substantial portion of the K-mart market came because it was "the beast of the east" and focused so much on the "skiing" product.


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## threecy (Jun 26, 2007)

It'll be interesting to see how closing in April instead of May/June affects them.  They certainly aren't the first area to abandon late season operations.  My guess is that the late season losses probabaly more than compensate for the potential loss of peak season customers.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2007)

threecy said:


> It'll be interesting to see how closing in April instead of May/June affects them.  They certainly aren't the first area to abandon late season operations.  My guess is that the late season losses probabaly more than compensate for the potential loss of peak season customers.



Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jun 26, 2007)

thetrailboss said:


> plus if you owned property at Killington, you might not have that POV.  Consider that....



IMHO, I don't think many, if any, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a piece of property to ski in October or May.  It might be a small part of the equation, but I would think not much.  





thetrailboss said:


> The long season was because SKI/Sherburne Corp. made its $$$ off of skiing.  So they needed to offer it longer than anyone else to create the Killington brand and to make it distinct.



To me, this argument suggests that Killington does not merit skiing as much as the Bush, Stowe, Stratton, etc. without the long ski season.  I think there's plenty at Killington to get people up there.  IMHO, skiing early/late season has to be in the bottom half of the top 10 reasons.  





thetrailboss said:


> In May of this year I saw a lot of NY, NJ, MA, CT plates....they drove from more than 2 hours.  Lots of folks come.



Obviously not enough to off-set the cost.





thetrailboss said:


> Actually, "locals" do bring money to the mountains in the form of buying passes for their familes and skiing on days when "out of towners" don't.  They are also there year-round to support local businesses and the mountain.  So yes, they are very important.



No doubt locals do bring in money.  IMHO, not enough to keep the mountain open late.  And, since they're locals, where else are they going to ski?  If they like skiing Killington in February, will they stop as a protest?  IMHO, doubtful.





thetrailboss said:


> I also think it is dangerous to make the stereotype of the "rich" outsider vs. the "poor" locals.  At the end of the day, Killington's neighbors are the ones who can make a big difference in things....



If I gave such an impression, I'm sorry, I definitely didn't mean it.  All I was trying to say is that outsiders spend more at ski areas because they have to (they have to book accomodations, they likely eat at the mountain, they tend to buy day/week passes).





thetrailboss said:


> AlpineZone is a place where skiers and riders chat, not where real estate moguls shoot the breeze....the interests are not much aligned now...



Fair enough.  But, a place like Killington, with all its fancy lifts, snowmaking and grooming needs resources to keep it going.  Maybe someone could make a go of it just focusing on the skiing end of things, but it seems to me smaller resorts would have more luck doing so and are better suited to such a philosophy.


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## threecy (Jun 26, 2007)

> In May of this year I saw a lot of NY, NJ, MA, CT plates....they drove from more than 2 hours. Lots of folks come.





> Obviously not enough to off-set the cost.



Don't forget that there is timeshare/condo/vacation house property that isn't slopeside.  Those people will most likely have out of state plates.


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## JimG. (Jun 26, 2007)

MadPadraic said:


> As for being opposed to change, a shorter season is going to negatively impact local businesses and passholder utility. It may also impact property values. It makes sense that stakeholders would try and influence Powd'r's behavior.



And I reject this. Other than places like AZ, there just are not enough regular skiers who want the longer season to affect business, passholders, or property values in any appreciable way. Listen, places like Vail, Beaver Creek, and Copper regularly close in mid-April with full coverage. Why? Because there isn't enough business to make it worthwhile. They're getting the golf course ready. And since K also has golf amongst other summer activities, I challenge you on the point that a shorter ski season makes any difference.

Other than to folks like you and me who want to ski however we can.


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## nycskier (Jun 26, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Listen, places like Vail, Beaver Creek, and Copper regularly close in mid-April with full coverage. Why? Because there isn't enough business to make it worthwhile. They're getting the golf course ready. And since K also has golf amongst other summer activities, I challenge you on the point that a shorter ski season makes any difference.



Actually Vail closes in Mid-April becasue Fedreal Government tells them to. Vail is located in White River National Forest. If I am not mistaken the ski slopes are on the mating paths of Caraboo or something so they have to close to allow the wildlife to roam.

If they could I am sure Vail would stay open longer. A-basin afterall makes good money on staying open late season. 

As for golfing at Killington the Ski in the morning golf in the afternoon late season in May was something a lot of people look forward to and would even be willing to drive all the way from NYC or Boston for! Closing early deprives them of that business.


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## nycskier (Jun 26, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> I completely understand why loyal Killington skiers would feel outraged by having something that they considered a given (super long seasons) taken away from them.  I don't agree with them, but I understand the anger one can feel when something one thinks one is entitled to is taken away.  I grew up thinking Killington was THE place for late-season skiing.
> 
> But, for the VAST majority of skiers, including those who drive long distances to ski mid-winter, do they really care?  Do people really ski Killington in December - March instead of other areas because the season is longer at Killington?  Maybe some might think it demonstrates a committment to snowmaking, but I think it's common knowledge they only make the insane snow on Superstar....
> 
> ...




You are missing the point. 1st of all no one feels "entitled" to a long season. We are consumers in a free market and we make choices where to spend our dollars.

When Killington raises pass prices 70%, increase blackout day on those passes by 50% and tells up they are closing 4 to 6 weeks earlier than previous years without showing us any improvements to the resort a lot of customers will choose to take there business elsewhere. 

I know I am not buying a season pass this year and I will most likely take by business elsewhere and ski a lot more at other resorts this season. 

The anger that many former Killington skiers are expressing comes from a sadness that the place they love seems to be going in the wrong direction as we try to figure out where to ski next year.


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## JimG. (Jun 26, 2007)

nycskier said:


> If they could I am sure Vail would stay open longer. A-basin afterall makes good money on staying open late season.



I don't get it...isn't it clear or is it alot of wishful thinking?

How do you take one of the resorts I mention, assign a different reason for its' closure, and then deduce they would certainly stay open longer if they could? Are you or someone in your family the owners? And what about all the other resorts on the I-70 corridor that close the same time, in mid-April, and the government has nothing to do with it? So we just throw that away because it doesn't jibe with how you want things to be?

And how do you know that A-Basin makes so much money staying open longer? Have you done a financial analysis? You throw these things out like they are undeniable facts when they simply are not.


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## JimG. (Jun 26, 2007)

nycskier said:


> You are missing the point. 1st of all no one feels "entitled" to a long season. We are consumers in a free market and we make choices where to spend our dollars.
> 
> When Killington raises pass prices 70%, increase blackout day on those passes by 50% and tells up they are closing 4 to 6 weeks earlier than previous years without showing us any improvements to the resort a lot of customers will choose to take there business elsewhere.
> 
> ...



Sorry, you sound as entitled as they come.

Those increases in pass prices merely bring Killington into line with other comparable ski areas' prices. Those cheap passes were a business disaster and have perhaps irreparably damaged the eastern ski industry as a whole by creating unreasonable expectations. I for one am glad to see them go. And their season now reflects that, in line with most other areas.

In the free market you mention, you are welcome to vote with your dollars. I do. That's why I don't go to Killington. If you don't like the new system, don't go there. And here's a tip...nobody will care if you do go elsewhere. Nobody.

And to the sad folks who don't like the new direction K is taking, you should have ponied up $80 million. Because it's clear K doesn't care about the raw "I'm there to ski" skiers anymore and wants a new direction. And it's their call. And who knows if they will be successful. I can tell you nobody here knows.


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## loafer89 (Jun 26, 2007)

Wow 11 pages on this thread already. This year will be the 20th anniversary of when I first started skiing at klllington in October, with my first time on Cascade on October 31st, 1987. Living in the NYC area at the time and nearly since then made these trips very expensive as we could not do them as a day trip. This meant lots of money spent on local food, lodging, lift tickets and gas that I would otherwise have lept at home and in my pocket. So we did alot more than just come up for a few turns and then leave. I probably have about 20-30 October and May days under my belt at Killington that required alot of $$$$$ to do.

Killington was always know to me as having the longest season in the east, and it was something that they took great pride in, with holding a May 1st slalom since 1961. I bought stock in SKII and held it for 6 years before the buyout by ASC in 1996 just to be a small part of what I really liked about Killington, a commitment to skiing whenever possible, this made Killington alot of money and the company enjoyed better than 30 years of sustained profitability.

With a mid November to mid April ski season, I have no desire to ski Killington at all anymore, so they will be losing my business for good. I am unsure of what the future will bring to the mountain as they will be run more or less the same as your average New England ski area, with a comporable season length to Okemo, mount Snow,  etc.

Honestly the more I think about it, Killington will just be reducing operating expenses with a shorter ski season, while still making a profit off the average joe who ski's 10 days a year and could care less about 75 extra days of season length.

Local businesses will suffer somewhat with no draw during October and in late April and May, with little else to do in the area during those months.


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## win (Jun 26, 2007)

MikeTrainor said:


> I think this question was answered before. Some mountains only count the snow total during their operating time. Not snow in October or after they close. Others count all snow received for the year.
> 
> Also I would take Wildcat or Sugarbush over Killington any day. I don't understand why some people think Wildcat lacks diverse terrain or does not have some difficult runs.



Yes, we only count the snowfall after we open for the season and only until we close.  We also try to use a representative total rather than find the one spot with the deepest depth. Next year we are going to try to get a better read Summit, Mid and Base and both Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen as the totals can vary materially over 2,600 feet of vertical here and even between the two mountains with the Lake effect we get here.


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## Breeze (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm  sure to be  entertained by the  BS circulating the forums about  K-mart. 

Plans are plans, and the best laid plans can be blown to bits by weather. 

Don't you think that given the free love of a late season natural P dump, K  wouldn't stretch? 

Of course they would, they would have to,  just to keep pace with competitors


Powdr and SP aren't making high marks out of the box, but this stuff is all just on paper.

 Wind  people up, get them hot and bothered, grab some publicity, get the name out there, under promise and over deliver.. piss off some and hope for a net gain. 

Next up with 85 million bucks?   Your  money, your turn.  

Breeze


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## snoseek (Jun 26, 2007)

win said:


> Yes, we only count the snowfall after we open for the season and only until we close.  We also try to use a representative total rather than find the one spot with the deepest depth. Next year we are going to try to get a better read Summit, Mid and Base and both Lincoln Peak and Mount Ellen as the totals can vary materially over 2,600 feet of vertical here and even between the two mountains with the Lake effect we get here.



o.k a little off topic.... have you seen the live lit snow stake on snowbird website. i bet that would be quite popular during snow events. i'm suprised more ski areas don't use this idea. should have chimed in on the challenge about that.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 26, 2007)

I don't think the announced mid Nov -mid April dates are set in stone. They are weather dependent and IMHO will change if the situation calls for it. Powdr is very smart, they are not going to say anything, including we might open early or close later.....,  that can come back on them. As we said in the beginning of this thread...under promise is a smart way to go. 

Making any decisions based on these dates or getting all worked up, like many people seem to be doing, is naive and premature IMHO. As mentioned before, most of the market has little interest in skiing in May, not nearly enough for any kind of cost/benefit on the positive side, financially speaking. It's a diferent world out there then it used to be, get used to it and adapt to it, that's how you really win.


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## Greg (Jun 26, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I don't think the announced mid Nov -mid April dates are set in stone. They are weather dependent and IMHO will change if the situation calls for it. Powdr is very smart, they are not going to say anything, including we might open early or close later.....,  that can come back on them. As we said in the beginning of this thread...under promise is a smart way to go.



Perhaps, but if you don't make enough snow to get to May throughout the season, you'll only get there if it's a very cold spring and/or multiple late season dumps. I sure hope that happens two years in a row, but I'm not holding my breath. I can see an early November opening if it's cold enough.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 26, 2007)

In the past few years opening up in early Nov has been very risky business. Even if you get cold weather, make a bunch of snow and open, is it really a good business decision if a few weeks later it all melts away and the resort has to shut down?


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## MadPadraic (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> And I reject this. Other than places like AZ, there just are not enough regular skiers who want the longer season to affect business, passholders, or property values in any appreciable way. Listen, places like Vail, Beaver Creek, and Copper regularly close in mid-April with full coverage. Why? Because there isn't enough business to make it worthwhile. They're getting the golf course ready. And since K also has golf amongst other summer activities, I challenge you on the point that a shorter ski season makes any difference.
> 
> Other than to folks like you and me who want to ski however we can.



To make sure I'm not misquoting/misunderstanding you, you are saying that there aren't enough late/early season skiers that area business won't be affected by a 6 week shorter season? You're also saying that only a few (previous) Killington passholders care about season length?

I don't think that the Co mountains are a fair comparison because of their geography. For a very large part of their customer base, getting there involves a flight. For VT resorts it typically involves driving and can be schedule last minute, rather than a minimum of 2 weeks in advance. This obviously affects frequency of visits and hence impacts pass decisions.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 27, 2007)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> IMHO, I don't think many, if any, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a piece of property to ski in October or May.  It might be a small part of the equation, but I would think not much.


Well, when one decides to buy a piece of ski property they no doubt do so near a ski area they like. Killington has always placed a major emphasis on their long season. Its not that far fetched that some condo owners picked K partly for the long season. 




> To me, this argument suggests that Killington does not merit skiing as much as the Bush, Stowe, Stratton, etc. without the long ski season.  I think there's plenty at Killington to get people up there.  IMHO, skiing early/late season has to be in the bottom half of the top 10 reasons.


Bush and Stowe had long seasons this year.



> Obviously not enough to off-set the cost.


This is unclear. Managers are perfectly capable of making bad decisions and the effect of this one won't be understood until at least 2009.




> No doubt locals do bring in money.  IMHO, not enough to keep the mountain open late.  And, since they're locals, where else are they going to ski?  If they like skiing Killington in February, will they stop as a protest?  IMHO, doubtful.


Well they could suck it up and ski at Okemo, which is very close. They could travel a bit and be any number of places. K's not all that remote once you're there.





> Fair enough.  But, a place like Killington, with all its fancy lifts, snowmaking and grooming needs resources to keep it going.  Maybe someone could make a go of it just focusing on the skiing end of things, but it seems to me smaller resorts would have more luck doing so and are better suited to such a philosophy.


I don't see why it has to be an either/or.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Breeze said:


> Powdr and SP aren't making high marks out of the box, but this stuff is all just on paper.
> 
> Wind  people up, get them hot and bothered, grab some publicity, get the name out there, under promise and over deliver.. piss off some and hope for a net gain.
> 
> ...



Ah, great minds think alike. Killington closed on May 6...I'll bet they've been the most talked about ski area in the US since because of all of this.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

MadPadraic said:


> To make sure I'm not misquoting/misunderstanding you, you are saying that there aren't enough late/early season skiers that area business won't be affected by a 6 week shorter season? You're also saying that only a few (previous) Killington passholders care about season length?



Yes, you understood completely...I do not believe there are enough skiers in those time frames to make a huge difference to any well run local business. I was up there on 4/29 a week before they closed this season and half the businesses were closed already! Those businesses KNOW already it doesn't pay to stay open past mid-April.

I know property owners up at K, families who spend plenty up there. No, they don't care at all about skiing past April because they have families and other activities come May. That's just a fact. 

The new K doesn't care about the single, hard core skier who will hike for turns in June and ski until they are peeled off the lifts. They want families and they want to run their operation like Okemo and Stratton.


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## awf170 (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Yes, you understood completely...I do not believe there are enough skiers in those time frames to make a huge difference to any well run local business. I was up there on 4/29 a week before they closed this season and half the businesses were closed already! Those businesses KNOW already it doesn't pay to stay open past mid-April.
> 
> I know property owners up at K, families who spend plenty up there. No, they don't care at all about skiing past April because they have families and other activities come May. That's just a fact.
> 
> The new K doesn't care about the single, hard core skier who will hike for turns in June and ski until they are peeled off the lifts. They want families and they want to run their operation like Okemo and Stratton.




Are you trying to say that a successful ski company like Powder, that probably hires people to research stuff just like this, knows more than a bunch of internet armchair quarterbacks?  I can't believe it.


I bet Powder makes record money this season...


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## Greg (Jun 27, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Are you trying to say that a successful ski company like Powder, that probably hires people to research stuff just like this, knows more than a bunch of internet armchair quarterbacks?  I can't believe it.



:lol:

Highway Star = King of the internet armchair quarterbacks


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Are you trying to say that a successful ski company like Powder, that probably hires people to research stuff just like this, knows more than a bunch of internet armchair quarterbacks?  I can't believe it.
> 
> 
> I bet Powder makes record money this season...



Wise guy.

But I think you got my point. Look, the Killington that was there since 2000 wasn't my cup of tea anymore. Like most here, I stopped going regularly when the extended season became endangered and then extinct. To me, the early/late season skiing ended after 2000 for the most part. So to me, shortening it what really amounts to 2 weeks is insignificant. 

Do I wish they had an extended season, especially past Memorial day? Sure. But I understand the business model that POWDR aspires to and that ain't in the plan. And they own the place now. So, either get over it or ski elsewhere.


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## Greg (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Do I wish they had an extended season, especially past Memorial day? Sure. But I understand the business model that POWDR aspires to and that ain't in the plan. And they own the place now. So, either get over it or ski elsewhere.



Most people probably also feel this way. What I think will be interesting is to see if any other ski areas attempt to fill this void.

I probably will not make a valiant effort to get out before Thanksgiving this year (my track record is not good anyway).


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

I paid to ski in May this year. I will again if I have the option next  year.  Sure I hope that SR is the 1st open and the last to close and my pass will work, but some of us will pay to ski early and late season if they have an option.  Seems like enough of us will come to make money as well.

 Breeze can comment here.. Look how excited wildcat was about the late season turn out and yes money made.  they posted on their web site how they were excited about the turnout and it was more than they expected(parapharase here) 

 It is  all about comapny structure and lift and labor lay out. If you can run 1 or two lifts with minimal staff  and open weekend it works.  April 13th is a shame IMO. 

 April 13th and June 1st are quite different.    

This is not a black and white story.
I see you point on pass prices Jim.(not sure I agree, but your point is well stated)   I don't agree on season length.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Greg said:


> Most people probably also feel this way. What I think will be interesting is to see if any other ski areas attempt to fill this void.



Nobody has yet.

Has any ski area other than Killington tried to stay open to Memorial day in the past 20 years? Which only lends more creedence to the thought it's not worth it for them to do so.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Bob R said:


> I paid to ski in May this year. I will again if I have the option next  year.  Sure I hope that SR is the 1st open adn the last to close and my pass will work, but some of us will pay to ski early and late season if they have an option.  Seems like enough of us will come to make money as well.
> 
> Breeze can comment here.. Look how excited wildcat was about the late season turn out and yes money made.  they posted on their web site how they were excited about the turnout and it was more than they expected(parapharase here)
> 
> ...



There's a disconnect here...when is the last time K stayed open until 6/1? 5 years ago at least.

There is a big difference between early May and early June. ASC killed the extended season long ago. Why are people blaming the new owners now that thay want to shorten the season what really amounts to 2 weeks? 

I think some folks are living in the past and are angry at POWDR for something ASC did.


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## SkiDog (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> There's a disconnect here...when is the last time K stayed open until 6/1? 5 years ago at least.
> 
> There is a big difference between early May and early June. ASC killed the extended season long ago. Why are people blaming the new owners now that thay want to shorten the season what really amounts to 2 weeks?
> 
> I think some folks are living in the past and are angry at POWDR for something ASC did.




Well in defense of ASC it was always longer than POWDR is proposing.

Jim you may very well have a different view if you bought property at the K years ago and bought it based on season length (which likely a skier like you would've done).

It stinks what POWDR is already doing to that mtn...layoffs...25+ yr FULL TIME Ski Patrol??? Why would you fire that guy??? Shame......I hope they have some GRAND PLANS in the next 5 or so years...they have some "making up" to do IMHO.

M


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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2007)

I express the same POV as Bob R:  for the *New England/NY Market*, there ARE enough diehards for one, maybe two, resorts to have early and late season skiing.  

But as I said earlier in this thread, and Jim has pointed out, POWDR has something else in mind (which really sucks).  As pointed out, they want to define their product so that it is like Okemo and Stratton (lots of real estate...).  I think that NE has enough of "those" kinds of mountains, but SP Lands put $83 mill or so down thinks otherwise...

We have to somehow deal with this change in the Killington product...if there even is a change.  As has been said, this is meant to be a "worst-case" scenario for season length.  I guess we have to wait and see...which is not comforting to those who live on Killington or own property there.  That "Killington Product" may not exist anymore....much to our chagrin.  

So who is going to fill the early season/late season void?  :wink:


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Jim you may very well have a different view if you bought property at the K years ago and bought it based on season length (which likely a skier like you would've done).
> 
> M



UNDOUBTEDLY and I have said so here and in other threads. I don't write these things to thumb my nose at those folks like you. I'm looking at the rational for their business plan only.

All I'm really saying is that you cannot say they will fail because the plan as it looks like it will play out doesn't benefit everyone/anyone who posts here. We hear only one side of the story here, from the hardcore skiers who own or who will ski until there is no snow, and after that if the grass is still wet.

The skier universe is an awful lot bigger than that.


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

Jim "Your kind of making my point"  June is Done for lift serviced. Mid or early may can work. April 13th just makes no sense to me.  Early may cloisng is my version of living in today's ski world.

Skidog is correct.  I bougth at Loon when they opend like Nov 10 and would stay open a little later if the snow allowed.  Aw I left.  If I was a property owner I would be insane right know.  I would add insult to injury (like the Crazy K guy)  I would spend less at the mountain to show my displeasure. 
 If the opposite happened I would spend more money later.   I did that this year. I know those who made turns with me late made the same effort to do so.


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## SkiDog (Jun 27, 2007)

We also very easily have forgotten that the company PRE ASC was able to remain profitable even WITH the extended season....Were they doing something different??? Probably yes...and that different was not paying a ton of execs huge salaries and putting that money where it was supposed to go..THE MOUNTAIN..

M


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## Greg (Jun 27, 2007)

Greg said:


> Most people probably also feel this way. What I think will be interesting is to see if any other ski areas attempt to fill this void.





JimG. said:


> Nobody has yet.
> 
> Has any ski area other than Killington tried to stay open to Memorial day in the past 20 years? Which only lends more creedence to the thought it's not worth it for them to do so.





thetrailboss said:


> So who is going to fill the early season/late season void?  :wink:



Jim - no nobody has yet, but the state of the Northeast ski industry is far different going into this season, probably more than any other since Killington first shortened the season length. Powdr/SP, Peak, and Boyne are new players (well not Peak, but you get the point). Not saying anyone is going to aim for Memorial Day, but early May? Absolutely! I still think we should watch what Peak does very carefully. They have already stated that Attitash will not set a closing date. They've been very aggressive with promoting the snowmaking upgrades to both Snow and Attitash. They came right out of the gate offering very competitive season pass prices that former A41 pass holders could easily get behind.

I keep thinking back to our day at Mount Snow last November, Jim. The fact they downloaded on the Canyon quad to give us that loop up top on Upper Canyon, River Run and Chute was very much appreciated. I think they could do that loop again as an early season option, blow the snot out of it with snowmaking throughout the season, and also keep it open for late season. Downloading is key for early/late season and Snow has the lift infrastructure to do it. They certainly could make the end of April if they tried. I understand they are more latitude and altitude deficient when compared to Killington, but under the right conditions, I think they can still beat out Killington on both ends. This validates their pass price as an even better value, creates a buzz, and fills the void left by Killington. Based on what I've seen from Peak Resorts so far, I wouldn't put at least trying this past them.

Don't underestimate Win and company as well. Let's remember, they stayed open until May 5 this year. Not sure they have the altitude advantage on Stein's to stay open that late if they didn't get the April snowfalls this year, but you never know. And down the road once some development happens at Mount Ellen, I can see F.I.S (with downloading on the GMX) easily becoming the new Superstar.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Bob R said:


> Jim "Your kind of making my point"  June is Done for lift serviced. Mid or early may can work. April 13th just makes no sense to me.  Early may cloisng is my version of living in today's ski world.
> 
> Skidog is correct.  I bougth at Loon when they opend like Nov 10 and would stay open a little later if the snow allowed.  Aw I left.  If I was a property owner I would be insane right know.  I would add insult to injury (like the Crazy K guy)  I would spend less at the mountain to show my displeasure.
> If the opposite happened I would spend more money later.   I did that this year. I know those who made turns with me late made the same effort to do so.



Forget about the freak snow this past April...none of the hills that stayed open late did so according to a plan...it was on the fly.

In a "normal" season, do you realize that many ski areas are done well before 4/13? Alot of more southerly skiers consider 4/1 late season. 

Again Bob, we the posters on AZ are not the "normal" skier. And the new owners of K don't care too much about us.

I believe in underpromise/overdeliever. Maybe POWDR will keep K open if conditions warrant. We don't know. But what are the odds of that happening if all the late season skiers defect because they are pissed off? Wouldn't that only bolster POWDR's argument that there aren't enough skiers to stay open profitably?

Does the "screw them if they won't run the place the way I want" play right into their hands?


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## threecy (Jun 27, 2007)

It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Greg said:


> Jim - no nobody has yet, but the state of the Northeast ski industry is far different going into this season, probably more than any other since Killington first shortened the season length. Powdr/SP, Peak, and Boyne are new players (well not Peak, but you get the point). Not saying anyone is going to aim for Memorial Day, but early May? Absolutely! I still think we should watch what Peak does very carefully. They have already stated that Attitash will not set a closing date. They've been very aggressive with promoting the snowmaking upgrades to both Snow and Attitash. They came right out of the gate offering very competitive season pass prices that former A41 pass holders could easily get behind.
> 
> I keep thinking back to our day at Mount Snow last November, Jim. The fact they downloaded on the Canyon quad to give us that loop up top on Upper Canyon, River Run and Chute was very much appreciated. I think they could do that loop again as an early season option, blow the snot out of it with snowmaking throughout the season, and also keep it open for late season. Downloading is key for early/late season and Snow has the lift infrastructure to do it. They certainly could make the end of April if they tried. I understand they are more latitude and altitude deficient when compared to Killington, but under the right conditions, I think they can still beat out Killington on both ends. This validates their pass price as an even better value, creates a buzz, and fills the void left by Killington. Based on what I've seen from Peak Resorts so far, I wouldn't put at least trying this past them.
> 
> Don't underestimate Win and company as well. Let's remember, they stayed open until May 5 this year. Not sure they have the altitude advantage on Stein's to stay open that late if they didn't get the April snowfalls this year, but you never know. And down the road once some development happens at Mount Ellen, I can see F.I.S (with downloading on the GMX) easily becoming the new Superstar.



Same disconnect...early May is not late season. It's 2 weeks extra.

Early June is late season and that's been gone for years.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

threecy said:


> It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.



Indeed, good point.

I'll go on record now...I would not hesitate if they gave me lift served on Superstar top to bottom until June 1.
They can even groom half of it if they want to.


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm waiting on Boyne. I have the feeling they have a competive juices.  I'm not sure on how long the season will go, but I have a feeling impovements will be made.

 Peaks is speaking with actions.  So is K.  I would take Peaks actions.

My point is I really think someone will step up.  Wildcat, K(to me early May was repectable) and Sugarbush did last year.  3 new big players. Two have spoken one I'm waiting on  Boyne with good anticipation.  It obvious some K folk have move to Mt snow. Just like somem booth creek people have moved on as well.

edit just saw you post Jim.  We will see. New players new competion.  Wilcat still proved you can stay open and make a profit.


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## Greg (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Same disconnect...early May is not late season. It's 2 weeks extra.
> 
> Early June is late season and that's been gone for years.



Early May or early June is a moot point if you're the only ski area offering lift-serviced...


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## 2knees (Jun 27, 2007)

threecy said:


> It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.




I'd pay 72 bucks to ski on memorial day on one trail in a heartbeat.

I suspect that wouldnt be the overwhelming opinion though.  

I wonder what people would be saying if powdr had raised the pass prices to pre A41 levels and adjusted also for inflation.  something along the lines of 1200 bucks or so but also gave us skiing till mid may.


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

2knees said:


> I'd pay 72 bucks to ski on memorial day on one trail in a heartbeat.
> 
> I suspect that wouldnt be the overwhelming opinion though.
> 
> I wonder what people would be saying if powdr had raised the pass prices to pre A41 levels and adjusted also for inflation.  something along the lines of 1200 bucks or so but also gave us skiing till mid may.



I would pay to ski early or late.  There are enough of us.  2knees if they impoved the upkeep and went close to memorial day I bet the core would be happy and pay.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 27, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> We also very easily have forgotten that the company PRE ASC was able to remain profitable even WITH the extended season....Were they doing something different??? Probably yes...and that different was not paying a ton of execs huge salaries and putting that money where it was supposed to go..THE MOUNTAIN..
> 
> M




Yes, there is a difference.  SKI was, as its ticker name suggests, focused on the SKI biz.  They could not do the real estate portion well....

Now we have SP LAND:  their focus, the real estate.  And the tradeoff:  _so far_ they have not run the ski part well.  But then again, they have not really "run" that part of the business yet.


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## andyzee (Jun 27, 2007)

Wanted to throw in my 2 cents and show that people do indeed show up late season. Granted, may not be the crowds you see mid season, but then again, you don't have as much of the mountain open. Less open, less expense, but more publicity. Also, saw a suprising number of folks buying day tickets.

4/22, looks like a good crowd to me: 







This made 4/15 bearable: 









May 6th had a few folks:


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

Andy time to move to the River. Whats a couple extra hours.  honestly that Mt snow pass seems to be an attraction to many K folk.


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## Phildozer (Jun 27, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> Killington DOES NOT NEED FANCY LODGES...ITS ABOUT BEING THE BEAST OF THE EAST...and that it....Killington fanatics could care about nothing more than that.
> 
> M




True Killington fanatics will continue to ski there.

The new owners are catering to people like me.  I went up to Killington this past May for the day and was entirely underwhelmed with the place.  Granted, I don't want leather seats and massages while waiting in the liftline but the main lodge is a pit.  The furniture looks like it came out of a 1970's public school cafeteria.

The place looks shabby and if I'm going to spend top dollar for a weekend/week with my family skiing, it isn't going to be somewhere that looks like Killington.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Phildozer said:


> True Killington fanatics will continue to ski there.
> 
> The new owners are catering to people like me.  I went up to Killington this past May for the day and was entirely underwhelmed with the place.  Granted, I don't want leather seats and massages while waiting in the liftline but the main lodge is a pit.  The furniture looks like it came out of a 1970's public school cafeteria.
> 
> The place looks shabby and if I'm going to spend top dollar for a weekend/week with my family skiing, it isn't going to be somewhere that looks like Killington.



Hear hear...this is the prospective skier POWDR is looking for.


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

kind of laughing, do we have a clear idea of what improvements are taking place?  Many mulch jokes.

 All I know and looked at was pass price and season opening and ending date. 

 I can tell you what Mt snow's an Attitash are doing and what K is not doing.
 kind of my point.
 I really get your perspective here Jim.   Hunter shows what a good plan can do.  

 What good news have we heard that make one want to go to k?


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## andyzee (Jun 27, 2007)

Bob R said:


> Andy time to move to the River. Whats a couple extra hours. honestly that Mt snow pass seems to be an attraction to many K folk.


 
Bob, I'd love to move to the River, lil item tough, need work.  Mt Snow is ok for a day or two, but overall just doesn't do it for me. So for now, it's most likely going to be K for one more season and then we'll see for next season.


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## MikeTrainor (Jun 27, 2007)

SkiDog said:


> We also very easily have forgotten that the company PRE ASC was able to remain profitable even WITH the extended season....Were they doing something different??? Probably yes...and that different was not paying a ton of execs huge salaries and putting that money where it was supposed to go..THE MOUNTAIN..
> 
> M



It looks like it can be done. I don't think Wildcat would have gone as late as they did is they were not making a profit. They seem to really watch spending there.


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

andyzee said:


> Bob, I'd love to move to the River, lil item tough, need work.  Mt Snow is ok for a day or two, but overall just doesn't do it for me. So for now, it's most likely going to be K for one more season and then we'll see for next season.




I think I would stay for a year under similar situations.  Hopefully all the negitive stuff is out, and maybe they are just setting up to stay open later and look better.  The staffing concerns will be obvious quickly one way or another..

Still hate folks getting terminated.  I don't have all the facts, changes take palce in buyouts, but people still should matter some.


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

Bob R said:


> Still hate folks getting terminated.  I don't have all the facts, changes take palce in buyouts, but people still should matter some.



I agree with you Bob...but I think we're dinosaurs when it comes to that. Nowadays termination is literal...you get the pink slip and an escort from security to the door.

Nice.

And then people wonder why a few lunatics go buy a gun and take vengeance.


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## SkiDog (Jun 27, 2007)

thetrailboss said:


> Yes, there is a difference.  SKI was, as its ticker name suggests, focused on the SKI biz.  They could not do the real estate portion well....
> 
> Now we have SP LAND:  their focus, the real estate.  And the tradeoff:  _so far_ they have not run the ski part well.  But then again, they have not really "run" that part of the business yet.



EXACTLY why a SKI company should be running/owning a SKI resort...not a land management company...

M


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## Vortex (Jun 27, 2007)

Jim I'm sure you have been through this as I have. Your right it is what it is these days.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 27, 2007)

Again, I think some of are totally obsessed with this April 13 date. If on April 13th there was still decent cover and most of the major resorts/competitors like Okemo, Stratton, Mt Snow  and Sugarbush are going to stay open you can bet dollars to donuts that Powdr/kmart will extend the season as well. 

One of their number one tasks is to rebuild the brand/customer base and they know that they have to exceed expectations if they have any hope of succeeding. Powdr is simply playing things close to the vest with the April 13th date.


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## Breeze (Jun 27, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Again, I think some of are totally obsessed with this April 13 date. If on April 13th there was still decent cover and most of the major resorts/competitors like Okemo, Stratton, Mt Snow  and Sugarbush are going to stay open you can bet dollars to donuts that Powdr/kmart will extend the season as well.
> 
> One of their number one tasks is to rebuild the brand/customer base and they know that they have to exceed expectations if they have any hope of succeeding. Powdr is simply playing things close to the vest with the April 13th date.



SRO, I'd like to agree with you. 

One of the reasons Wildcat extended and extended and extended this spring was to appeal to  the  OTHER MWV skiers whose home mountains had turned out the lights.   Of course, Bretton Woods and Attitash had changed owners, so there were some  folks who  were just sooooooo ready to check out  other opportunities.   A LOT of MWV skiers experienced a bad season.  May 6 weekend was a fun time at the Kitty and we did turn some heads in a good way.

If K is setting the stage for "under promise, over deliver", they are certainly going at  the  "under promise" part with a vengeance.

Breeze


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## JimG. (Jun 27, 2007)

ski_resort_observer said:


> Again, I think some of are totally obsessed with this April 13 date. If on April 13th there was still decent cover and most of the major resorts/competitors like Okemo, Stratton, Mt Snow  and Sugarbush are going to stay open you can bet dollars to donuts that Powdr/kmart will extend the season as well.
> 
> One of their number one tasks is to rebuild the brand/customer base and they know that they have to exceed expectations if they have any hope of succeeding. Powdr is simply playing things close to the vest with the April 13th date.



Underpromise and overdeliver.

However, the season at Mt. Bachelor, another POWDR property, was ended on 4/15 this past season and I believe they still may have enough snow to ski top to bottom now. But I don't know if there are alot of other ski area options nearby in that area.


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## Breeze (Jun 27, 2007)

Not too many folks  are remembering the  days 1988-199? when an adult pass at SR ONLY was $1200, if bought  before Columbus day.  And SR was selling the he// out of condos and doing terrain development at the same time.   All of Bethel Maine were thinking they'd need a wheelbarrow to take their money to the bank. 



Ha ha ha ha.   


Breeze


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## threecy (Jun 27, 2007)

threecy said:


> It'd be interesting to see what people would think if K-Mart stayed open until June and charged full price.



Here's probably what you'd hear:

"$72 for 1 trail?  Forget it!"  "Those SP/Powdr people are crooks"  "It doesn't cost $72, they're only running one lift!"


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## loafer89 (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Underpromise and overdeliver.
> 
> However, the season at Mt. Bachelor, another POWDR property, was ended on 4/15 this past season and I believe they still may have enough snow to ski top to bottom now. But I don't know if there are alot of other ski area options nearby in that area.


 
Mt. Bachelor closed on May 20th. Mount Hood is about a 3 hour drive away.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 27, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> Mt. Bachelor closed on May 20th. Mount Hood is about a 3 hour drive away.



Yup...I heard MB had a very long season and went against the common misconception that Powdr shuts down their resorts early.


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## snoseek (Jun 27, 2007)

why not stay open fri-mon? charge 40 bucks and after maybe apr 15 shut off season passes and sell discounted tix (just to recover cost) to passholders? seems fair.


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## awf170 (Jun 27, 2007)

JimG. said:


> But I understand the business model that POWDR aspires to and that ain't in the plan. And they own the place now. So, either get over it or ski elsewhere.



Yep.  There is more than one way to make a ski area successful. The audience that Powder now wants K-mart to cater to probably doesn't care about late season skiing.


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## millerm277 (Jun 28, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Yep.  There is more than one way to make a ski area successful. The audience that Powder now wants K-mart to cater to probably doesn't care about late season skiing.



Which is fine (well, I hate it, but it's a fine way to go), except for the fact that Killington has never successfully catered to that crowd before, and I can't see that changing now. The village is probably going to take 5 to 7 years minimum, and there's no chance you'll see those people showing up until that's done.

Other problems for catering to the $$$ crowds.

Crowds and crowded lodges.....I don't think the price increases are really going to solve this much.
It's big, and difficult to get around for people that don't know the area very well.
It's steep.
It's further away than Stratton or Okemo.
The lifts are slow (which is necessary since the trails would be insane otherwise, but $$$ people tend to like things like Stratton's lift set-up)


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 28, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> Which is fine (well, I hate it, but it's a fine way to go), except for the fact that Killington has never successfully catered to that crowd before, and I can't see that changing now. The village is probably going to take 5 to 7 years minimum, and there's no chance you'll see those people showing up until that's done.
> 
> Other problems for catering to the $$$ crowds.
> 
> ...



A couple of points....4 years ago when kmart's SP pass prices were much higher they had  995,000 skier visits, guessing it was around 750,000 this past season so a 20% increase as a goal for Powdr is not a crazy number.

I don't think they are going for the $$$ crowds but maybe the $$ crowd getting away from the $ crowd.

The village will take at least 4 years to get going but if no one shows up until then they are in for a hard ride in the next few years. I think they hope to start turning things around after next season.


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## 2knees (Jun 28, 2007)

millerm277 said:


> Crowds and crowded lodges.....I don't think the price increases are really going to solve this much.



You dont think eliminating the bronze pass will reduce weekend crowds?  I beg to differ.



millerm277 said:


> It's big, and difficult to get around for people that don't know the area very well.



While it is big, i think people vastly exaggerate the difficulty in navigating the place.  If this were such a big deal, why are there so many never evers that ski there.  and families.  and british tourist groups.  and on and on.




millerm277 said:


> It's steep.



Not to be callous, but so what?  And it isnt any steeper then many areas to the north.  actually, i'd say its pretty tame outside of a couple of trails.



millerm277 said:


> It's further away than Stratton or Okemo.



But closer than stowe or sugarbush.



millerm277 said:


> The lifts are slow (which is necessary since the trails would be insane otherwise, but $$$ people tend to like things like Stratton's lift set-up)



It has alot of slow lifts because there are alot of lifts period.  The ss quad, the needles eye quad, the k1 and skyeship arent slow.  and they service a very large chunk of terrain.  The only lift that is a real problem is the skye peak quad cause its so darn long.  Ok, snowdon at least needs an upgrade even if its another fixed grip.  The canyon quad is not bad and the bear mtn quad is just fine as is.  Its only 1000 vert and not long due to the steepness of the terrain.  Additionally, i'm not sure why you are saying rich people only want to ski at areas with multiple high speed lifts servicing every nook and cranny of a ski area.  Stowe brought in alot of money even before the 4 runner quad went in.  I think people get a bit overworked thinking killington is marketing themselves right out of business.  Its a huge ski area that is probably the most well known area to the masses in the east and will always draw more than its fair share of 5 day a year skiers looking for a vacation.


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## JimG. (Jun 28, 2007)

threecy said:


> Here's probably what you'd hear:
> 
> "$72 for 1 trail?  Forget it!"  "Those SP/Powdr people are crooks"  "It doesn't cost $72, they're only running one lift!"



I agree with you; and there aren't enough idiots like me who would gladly pay to make it worth their while to do it.

You can thank the A41 for that...and take a look a Breeze's post below. $1200 for an SR pass in the 90's and people were lining up to pay and buy real estate. Today, they would be attacked in this forum just like POWDR is now.


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## JimG. (Jun 28, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> Mt. Bachelor closed on May 20th. Mount Hood is about a 3 hour drive away.



A month later than I thought. The way people from there have been bitching about it, you would think they closed the end of March. 

At 3 hours, there really isn't a close by competitor to pressure them to stay open longer. And it's very possible that POWDR's plan simply concedes that later than 5/20 business to Hood. 

I tell you, expectations are way out of line with reality.


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## threecy (Jun 28, 2007)

It's just like baseball - practically everyone in New England knows how to manage and general manage the Red Sox better than Fraconia and Epstein.


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## JohnGD33 (Jun 29, 2007)

awf170 said:


> Yep.  There is more than one way to make a ski area successful. The audience that Powder now wants K-mart to cater to probably doesn't care about late season skiing.



I will take the extra drive time and go to smuggs and stowe


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## win (Jun 29, 2007)

Add Sugabush to your list.  We would love to see you here!


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

win said:


> Add Sugabush to your list.  We would love to see you here!



win, would you ever consider staying open until June 1 on a regular, planned out basis? Make it a yearly plan skiers could count on?

I'm asking because I sense you would consider doing it if there was another ridiculous April snow month like this past season followed by cold lingering into late May. So I'm wondering if the idea of making it a yearly plan would work for you.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> win, would you ever consider staying open until June 1 on a regular, planned out basis? Make it a yearly plan skiers could count on?
> 
> I'm asking because I sense you would consider doing it if there was another ridiculous April snow month like this past season followed by cold lingering into late May. So I'm wondering if the idea of making it a yearly plan would work for you.



He already touched on this here (see q&a #7):

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2007/response.htm?resort=sugarbush

But it would be interesting if you could expand on that, Win. How do you (or can you) qualify the success of staying open late as a marketing tactic? Would running through May be something you'd consider especially since Killington seems to be out of the game?


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> He already touched on this here (see q&a #7):
> 
> http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2007/response.htm?resort=sugarbush
> 
> But it would be interesting if you could expand on that, Win. How do you (or can you) qualify the success of staying open late as a marketing tactic? Would running through May be something you'd consider especially since Killington seems to be out of the game?



Yes, to a degree. But it would be good for late season advocates to read what he wrote there. THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY STAYING OPEN LATE. It's for marketing and customer appreciation. 

I guess what I'm after from win is if he thinks the goodwill generated from an "open late" policy translates into profit at other times of the year. Because alot of folks who talk about Killington have said they went there for the early/late season skiing. Well, if they don't go at other times of the year, then staying open late is nothing but expense and not worth it.

But that's from my limited perspective.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I guess what I'm after from win is if he thinks the goodwill generated from an "open late" policy translates into profit at other times of the year. Because alot of folks who talk about Killington have said they went there for the early/late season skiing. Well, if they don't go at other times of the year, then staying open late is nothing but expense and not worth it.



Very interesting observation. However, you need to think about this in terms of pass purchases. If people opt for a pass because the mountain offers early/late season operations, they'll presumably use it throughout the season. Killington's season is now just like any other mountain's so they will undoubtedly lose those passholders as a result. It would be interesting to see Win's take on this.


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> Very interesting observation. However, you need to think about this in terms of pass purchases. If people opt for a pass because the mountain offers early/late season operations, they'll presumably use it throughout the season. Killington's season is now just like any other mountain's so they will undoubtedly lose those passholders as a result. It would be interesting to see Win's take on this.



See, I don't think it's that simple. Are you telling me that season passholders who also own property at K are going to sell their condos over the summer and pull up stakes and move to another hill because of the season length? Not happening. Nobody I know or who has posted here is doing that.

Will the people who bought A41's go elsewhere? Undoubtedly. But that's a function of unrealistic expectations regarding pass prices more than late season operations. Are folks going to drive 3 hours further to get a deal at Sunday River? Not happening. And other folks will get a dose of reality/sticker shock about pass prices, wake up, and go right back to K. And they'll pay the pass prices.

You need to get rid of the word "undoubtedly" and put the words "some of" after "lose".


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## Vortex (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> See, I don't think it's that simple. Are you telling me that season passholders who also own property at K are going to sell their condos over the summer and pull up stakes and move to another hill because of the season length? Not happening. Nobody I know or who has posted here is doing that.
> 
> Will the people who bought A41's go elsewhere? Undoubtedly. But that's a function of unrealistic expectations regarding pass prices more than late season operations. Are folks going to drive 3 hours further to get a deal at Sunday River? Not happening. And other folks will get a dose of reality/sticker shock about pass prices, wake up, and go right back to K. And they'll pay the pass prices.
> 
> You need to get rid of the word "undoubtedly" and put the words "some of" after "lose".




Jim I left Loon for that reason partly and have my place on the market.  I doubled my drive. 3 hours is not alot for many, but seems long after driving 1.5 for 7 years.


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

Bob R said:


> Jim I left Loon for that reason partly and have my place on the market.  I doubled my drive. 3 hours is not alot for many, but seems long after driving 1.5 for 7 years.



I think you misunderstood...3 hours total each way is not terrible. But I wasn't referring to people who drove 1 1/2 hours going to 3 hours.

I was talking about folks who drive 2 1/2-3 hours now having to increase that drive by 2-3 hours more to get to Sunday River instead of K. Are people going to drive 4 1/2 to 6 hours each way to ski each weekend? Doubtful.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Yes, to a degree. But it would be good for late season advocates to read what he wrote there. THEY DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY STAYING OPEN LATE. It's for marketing and customer appreciation.
> 
> I guess what I'm after from win is if he thinks the goodwill generated from an "open late" policy translates into profit at other times of the year. Because alot of folks who talk about Killington have said they went there for the early/late season skiing. Well, if they don't go at other times of the year, then staying open late is nothing but expense and not worth it.
> 
> But that's from my limited perspective.



I think that the late season skiing is both a goodwill/PR thing and a revenue thing.   At least it was for SKI.  

It goes back to what I said (way back somewhere here in this thread) and that is that SKI's philosophy and business-model focused on skiing and riding.  

A friend of mine let me see her old copies of SKI's annual reports.  The reports back this up.  Their core business and revenue source was skiing/riding.  So the longer the ski season was, the more LIKELY it was that they would generate revenue.  Back then they did have some off-season revenue, but most of it came when those lifts were turning.  There was no real estate action or focus.  Pres Smith wasn't a real estate whiz...he knew how to manage and build a ski area and the folks with him did as well.  Their attitude was it was better to have the lifts turning and make some revenue, then to have them sit idle and make no revenue.  They had little choice since skiing was their business.  (Pico's docs from that time suggest that their revenue, even with the alpine slide, etc. was 95% skiing).  

It's just that those who focus on other priorities (i.e. using capital for real estate, trying to minimize overwhelming debt, etc) don't have the same perspective.


----------



## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> See, I don't think it's that simple. Are you telling me that season passholders who also own property at K are going to sell their condos over the summer and pull up stakes and move to another hill because of the season length? Not happening. Nobody I know or who has posted here is doing that.



Well, yes. I've read a few accounts of property owners being pissed because they specifically bought property at Killington because of the long season. Not sure I get your point though. I would expect that there are many more former pass holders that typically day tripped or rented a place or joined a ski house up there. Pretty damn easy for these pass holders to go with a new mountain.



JimG. said:


> Will the people who bought A41's go elsewhere? Undoubtedly. But that's a function of unrealistic expectations regarding pass prices more than late season operations. Are folks going to drive 3 hours further to get a deal at Sunday River? Not happening. And other folks will get a dose of reality/sticker shock about pass prices, wake up, and go right back to K. And they'll pay the pass prices.



You can't look at these things independently. I too feel that those solely bitching about the increased pass prices are doing so from a position of entitlement. However, combine an increased pass price with a shortened season and I can totally understand the less for more gripe.



JimG. said:


> You need to get rid of the word "undoubtedly" and put the words "some of" after "lose".



Come on. We're arguing semantics now? :roll: Jim - you're dreaming if you don't think these events are going to result in Killington losing some (I say a significant number of) pass holders:


Lifetime pass issue (whether it directly affects them or not)
Increased pass prices
Shorter season

I understand the whole this is business argument. I get it. But there also needs to be some balance. Many would argue Killington/Powdr is dropping the ball on the public relations front. Many people aren't going to sit back and just accept all this because it might ultimately be better for Killington's bottom line.

It's going to be an interesting season for sure.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> Lifetime pass issue (whether it directly affects them or not)
> Increased pass prices
> Shorter season
> 
> ...



Add firing longtime employees as well.  


Though we don't have any idea "why" they did fire those folks.  So there's some benefit of the doubt....


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## Vortex (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I think you misunderstood...3 hours total each way is not terrible. But I wasn't referring to people who drove 1 1/2 hours going to 3 hours.
> 
> I was talking about folks who drive 2 1/2-3 hours now having to increase that drive by 2-3 hours more to get to Sunday River instead of K. Are people going to drive 4 1/2 to 6 hours each way to ski each weekend? Doubtful.





I got ya fair statement.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I think you misunderstood...3 hours total each way is not terrible. But I wasn't referring to people who drove 1 1/2 hours going to 3 hours.
> 
> I was talking about folks who drive 2 1/2-3 hours now having to increase that drive by 2-3 hours more to get to Sunday River instead of K. Are people going to drive 4 1/2 to 6 hours each way to ski each weekend? Doubtful.



I'm confused again. Why is it that people need to go to Sunday River as a replacement?


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## Vortex (Jun 29, 2007)

I will say I bet Mt Snow is licking their chops and boyne is like We are not going to approch it like Powder did.  

I agree with what Jim is saying more than most.. the core will stay core.  The rest are going to at least think a bit.


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## tree_skier (Jun 29, 2007)

Bob, are your legs really about a foot long as it show in your avatar????


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## thetrailboss (Jun 29, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> Bob, are your legs really about a foot long as it show in your avatar????




Gesh.  You know the truth....Bob is Gap Kid's #1 customer!!!!!!!  :wink:


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## loafer89 (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> A month later than I thought. The way people from there have been bitching about it, you would think they closed the end of March.
> 
> At 3 hours, there really isn't a close by competitor to pressure them to stay open longer. And it's very possible that POWDR's plan simply concedes that later than 5/20 business to Hood.
> 
> I tell you, expectations are way out of line with reality.


 
This was a mountain that consistently skied into late June/early July until Powdr bought it. There probably was not enough profit to stay opened much later than late May, though when I skied it in May 1999, they ran the Pine Martin and the Summit Express, and two chairs gave access to 50% of the mountain, so it was probably not too costly to run, then again the place was deserted even with 100% sunshine and a 75"-150" base.


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

loafer89 said:


> This was a mountain that consistently skied into late June/early July until Powdr bought it. There probably was not enough profit to stay opened much later than late May, though when I skied it in May 1999, they ran the Pine Martin and the Summit Express, and two chairs gave access to 50% of the mountain, so it was probably not too costly to run, then again the place was deserted.



Very fair and objective info. I asked about Bachelor because I thought they tried to stay open until July 1. 

I actually knew they did because this is being discussed over on FTO also. So POWDR really castrated their season. 

But is it fair to compare 1 1/2 months to 2 weeks, based on recent K closings?


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> I understand the whole this is business argument. I get it. But there also needs to be some balance. Many would argue Killington/Powdr is dropping the ball on the public relations front. Many people aren't going to sit back and just accept all this because it might ultimately be better for Killington's bottom line.
> 
> It's going to be an interesting season for sure.



Remember dude, I'm just stirring the pot.

Also remember that the same folks who are pissed were pissed about other things too that are directly related to a late season like snowmaking, and other things like trail expansion and improvement, better and less expensive food, and lower day rates. Those things cost money. 

Who is going to pay? And shouldn't the folks who ski there the most pay the most?

Think about it.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> But is it fair to compare 1 1/2 months to 2 weeks, based on recent K closings?



Again, you're trying to isolate this point and discuss it independently of the other events since Powdr's take over. Couple it with the other items (increased pass prices, lifetime passes, firings) and it's easy to understand why Powdr is receiving static.


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> I'm confused again. Why is it that people need to go to Sunday River as a replacement?



I have to remind the editor?

Wasn't there a posting about SR offering a deal somewhat similar to the A41 for 07-08?


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Remember dude, I'm just stirring the pot.
> 
> Also remember that the same folks who are pissed were pissed about other things too that are directly related to a late season like snowmaking, and other things like trail expansion and improvement, better and less expensive food, and lower day rates. Those things cost money.
> 
> ...



I know what you're saying and I guess only time will tell as to what the Killington experience will be this and in future seasons.


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> Bob, are your legs really about a foot long as it show in your avatar????



That's the 2nd best laugh I've had in weeks!!!

Keep it up boys.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> I have to remind the editor?
> 
> Wasn't there a posting about SR offering a deal somewhat similar to the A41 for 07-08?



Der. Gotcha. I think Snow's pass pricing is very aggressive and it's closer for many SNE and NY metro skiers. I'm betting they are ecstatic.


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

Greg said:


> Der. Gotcha. I think Snow's pass pricing is very aggressive and it's closer for many SNE and NY metro skiers. I'm betting they are ecstatic.



A different approach...they may be the big winner in all of this, on paper anyway.

But remember, no conclusion can be reached until the snow flies.

For me, the only real issue is the quality of the product under my skis.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

JimG. said:


> A different approach...they may be the big winner in all of this, on paper anyway.
> 
> But remember, no conclusion can be reached until the snow flies.
> 
> For me, the only real issue is the quality of the product under my skis.



Agreed. 97 pole cats ain't gonna hurt 'em...


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

BTW, with this post, this thread is now tied with http://forums.alpinezone.com/8473-you-might-gaper-if.html as the 11th most active thread in the skiing forums! I guess the sharks took the chum... :lol:


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## JimG. (Jun 29, 2007)

As much as stirring the pot is fun, I'm enjoying this thread tremendously. There is alot of good insight and emotion here.


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## Vortex (Jun 29, 2007)

Jim Sr is lauding a value pass is coming. 

MT snow  has offered a pass at $499 pass I believe with Holiday black outs like the all 4 one Bronze had.  http://www.mountsnow.com/seasonpasses.html


short jokes.  Something I have never heard.


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## Greg (Jun 29, 2007)

Bob R said:


> Jim Sr is lauding a value pass is coming.
> 
> MT snow  has offered a pass at $499 pass I believe with Holiday black outs like the all 4 one Bronze had.  http://www.mountsnow.com/seasonpasses.html
> 
> ...



And now Bob R is tossing links in his posts! :-o We've come full circle, folks... 

The blackouts on that classic pass are pretty minimal.


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## madskier6 (Jun 29, 2007)

I've got to say that I again agree with Jim G here.  The people that own property at K will, for the most part, stay loyal and buy a pass or otherwise find a more affordable way to ski at K.  They've got too much invested to just pull up stakes because K is shortening the season by 2-3 weeks.  Those owners who have owned for many years will not be deterred by the price increase because, before ASC, they were used to higher season pass prices.

There will be other K property owners who will sell based on this info but that's because they are price sensitive.  IMHO the people that buy shares in ski houses at K may be the group most affected by these developments.  They are more likely than any other group to jump ship and look for more affordable alternatives.


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## ski_resort_observer (Jun 30, 2007)




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## thetrailboss (Jun 30, 2007)

FWIW I hear a lot of people at K-Zone saying they are leaving or looking to leave soon....

If all goes to plan, one more season for us (guaranteed) at Pico and Killington (for me).  I've come to like the place....now that I've found the goods and kind of gotten into the community (thanks to Andy Zee!) :wink:


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## Breeze (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm so fried ( worn out, emotionally,  and intellectually numb) on this Killington thing. 

 Whether the real estate market drives the bus,   the pass price drives the bus,  the  day ticket  price drives the bus,  or the  length  of  ski season drives the real estate bus, or the snowmaking  capacity drives the length of  season , and thereby the pass price which drives the Real Estate market due to length of  season, it is all a crap shoot driven by weather.   

No one  can guarantee  snow-making, Mother Nature Holds the trump card.

  People with a whole lotta money can  roll the dice on  that bet, and win or lose without affecting their dinner menu.

When long term  local employees get the  steel toed  boot in the a$$, because their long term  local  experience  on mountain suddenly is too expensive for the new owners to bear ( or the lifers  won't  say what the new owners  want to hear),   all  I can see in my mind's eye is a full cascade of  SPORE falling downhill because there wasn't a rational  or certified rental tech left on duty at the point of  sale.

 Lawyers, bankers,  and real estate agents should not qualify  as rental techs when money is being rented in the ski industry.  Their goals are not one and the same, their balance sheets cannot be  easily obtained or reconciled, and they work for different interests depending on who wants what for how much $$$. 

Yet  they will willingly put themselves and their clients in  harm's way for a buck., and ................

everyone bets on The Weather.

Breeze


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## Geoff (Jun 30, 2007)

thetrailboss said:


> FWIW I hear a lot of people at K-Zone saying they are leaving or looking to leave soon....
> 
> If all goes to plan, one more season for us (guaranteed) at Pico and Killington (for me).  I've come to like the place....now that I've found the goods and kind of gotten into the community (thanks to Andy Zee!) :wink:




The people who are leaving are the recent arrivals who only started skiing there when ASC offered the cheap passes.  For the most part.... good riddance.  The mountain sucked with that influx of bargain hunters and weekends that had historically been blissfully empty were jammed with bronze pass people.  Early season was so choked with them on the limited terrain that you had to be off the hill by 10:30.

If you own property at Killington, the pass price just doesn't matter.  I don't own a wildly elaborate place but my property taxes are $4K and my condo fee is $4K.  I'm paying an extra $750 for the increase for two season passes.  It's still cheaper than a decade ago.

The shortened season is a big issue for me.  I've always suffered through the midwinter Killington B.S. because of their great spring skiing product.  Before the ASC malaise, you could reliably ski much of the mountain until the 1st weekend of May before the place shrank down to one trail pod.  If Killington doesn't get MUCH better midwinter, I'll be selling in the spring.


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## Mad Skier (Jul 1, 2007)

Stay at Killington peeps. Maybe rough times for a few years but those could be the glory years for those who stick around, and think of how in you'll get being there while everyone hates them. Just remember MLB baseball after the strike. Everyone hated it. Its doing alright now.(There is nothing up rt. 100 worth venturing for I swear, nothing):dunce:


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## MikeTrainor (Jul 1, 2007)

We will see the next few years...my prediction is the killington will continue to lose visits, Mt. snow will gain and okemo will stay about the same.


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