# Steepest Ski trails by state



## ALLSKIING (Aug 17, 2006)

This list is from what I have skied
CT: Gunbarrel at Sundown
Mass : Jericho at Jiminy
NY: K-27 at Hunter
VT: FIS at Sugarbush
NH: I have only skied cranmore so I can't say
ME: Skidder at Sugarloaf


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## Greg (Aug 17, 2006)

I assume we're talking about on-piste.



ALLSKIING said:


> CT: Gunbarrel at Sundown



Gunbarrel  is CT's steepest, without question.



ALLSKIING said:


> Mass : Jericho at Jiminy



The lower third of Jericho is the steepest I've skied in MA. The upper 2/3 is not really that much steeper than Whitetail or Whirlaway. There's some steep stuff at the Beast too. Catapult at Catamount is decent too. I guess Jericho is the steepest overall though, again mostly due to the bottom section.



ALLSKIING said:


> NY: K-27 at Hunter



Lower K is no joke. Didn't have the energy left to drop into a bumpy K with Jim last season. I'd imagine there's stuff at Whiteface that is steeper. Rumors at Gore may be too. Haven't been to either.....yet.



ALLSKIING said:


> VT: FIS at Sugarbush



Upper is steep, no doubt. Steepest at the Bush, I'd imagine. There are some trails at Killington that might compare.



ALLSKIING said:


> NH: I have only skied cranmore so I can't say



The Angel Street headwall at Loon has legit pitch. There's got to be stuff at Cannon that's steeper though (haven't been yet).



ALLSKIING said:


> ME: Skidder at Sugarloaf



White Nitro Extension --> White Nitro is steep (that fence at the bottom is pretty ominous). Gondi Line is the most consistent steep at Sugarloaf.


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## awf170 (Aug 17, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:


> NY: K-27 at Hunter


Isn't Rumor steeper?


ALLSKIING said:


> VT: FIS at Sugarbush


I think Ovation is steeper.


ALLSKIING said:


> NH: I have only skied cranmore so I can't say


Tramline.


ALLSKIING said:


> ME: Skidder at Sugarloaf


There are about 20 trails at Sugarloaf alone steeper than skidder.


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## andyzee (Aug 17, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:


> This list is from what I have skied
> VT: FIS at Sugarbush


 
I would say Ovation at Killington has this beat, and I'm not sure that would be the steepest in the state.


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## JimG. (Aug 17, 2006)

andyzee said:


> I would say Ovation at Killington has this beat, and I'm not sure that would be the steepest in the state.



Face Chutes at Jay are the steepest in bounds in VT.
Freefall at Smuggs and Paradise at MRG are close behind.


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## hammer (Aug 17, 2006)

Maybe this thread will help:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/8477-steepness-runs.html?highlight=trail+pitch


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## 2knees (Aug 17, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Face Chutes at Jay are the steepest in bounds in VT.



only place in the east thats ever held an extreme skiing contest, as far as i know.

I cant answer the question as i know i havent skied the steepest trail in any state other than ct, and that doesnt really count.  

I sincerely doubt ovation is the steepest trail in VT.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 17, 2006)

2knees said:


> only place in the east thats ever held an extreme skiing contest, as far as i know.



They have an extreame skiing contest at the bush usually off of lift line on the rock. John Egan is usually a judge. Lots of fun to watch!!


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 17, 2006)

I remeber reading somewhere that the steepest trail in the east is at a small ski area in PA but can't remember the name. When I get some time I will see if I can find that again.


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## hammer (Aug 17, 2006)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I remeber reading somewhere that the steepest trail in the east is at a small ski area in PA but can't remember the name. When I get some time I will see if I can find that again.



Was it here?

http://forums.alpinezone.com/5219-ski-denton.html?highlight=triple+fall+line


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## freeheelwilly (Aug 17, 2006)

Ski Denton!  66 degrees!!!!!


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## Greg (Aug 17, 2006)

Don't forget about the dreaded triple fall line...


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 17, 2006)

awf170 said:


> Isn't Rumor steeper?
> .




It is, but he said based on what he has skied.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

Upper Warrens way at Burke = ~41% slope
I used the Vermont DEM to create contours and the Vermont Orthos to see where the trail is. I then selected the top and bottom contours (yellow lines) that determine the trail and got their difference (2860'-2300'=560'). I then measured the horizontal distance between the lines (red line = 1371'). I then calculated rise over run to get the % of slope (560/1371 = .408*100 = 40.8). See image


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## Greg (Aug 17, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> Upper Warrens way at Burke = ~41 degree slope
> I used the Vermont DEM to create contours and the Vermont Orthos to see where the trail is. I then selected the top and bottom contours (yellow lines) that determine the trail and got their difference (2860'-2300'=560'). I then measured the horizontal distance between the lines (red line = 1371'). I then calculated rise over run to get the degrees of slope (560/1371 = .408*100 = 40.8 degrees). See attached image



Coolness. Do some more..


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## andyzee (Aug 17, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Face Chutes at Jay are the steepest in bounds in VT.


 
I was thinking the same think, but 1) Never skied them. 2) Couldn't remember the name


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

Outer Limits Killington = ~50% slope
I used the Vermont DEM to create contours and the Vermont Orthos to see where the trail is located. I then selected the top and bottom contours (yellow lines) that determine the trail and got their difference (3220'-2180=1040'). I then measured the horizontal distance between the lines (red line = 2089'). I then calculated rise over run to get the percent of slope (1040/2089 = .4978*100 = 49.8). See image


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

You'll have to trust my measurements of the Red Lines that cover the horizontal distances. I set my map scale in the software that I am using to be the same. However when I take a screenshot and the the image gets resized and so forth it is throwing the perceptable scale out of wack. :sad:


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## sledhaulingmedic (Aug 17, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> Outer Limits Killington = ~50 degree slope
> I used the Vermont DEM to create contours and the Vermont Orthos to see where the trail is located. I then selected the top and bottom contours (yellow lines) that determine the trail and got their difference (3220'-2180=1040'). I then measured the horizontal distance between the lines (red line = 2089'). I then calculated rise over run to get the degrees of slope (1040/2089 = .4978*100 = 49.8 degrees). See image


 
Wow.  I didn't think Outer Limits was much over 40 degrees.  I always thought the top of Devil's Fiddle was steeper.


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## andyzee (Aug 17, 2006)

Sorry from_the_N*EK,*  I forget my trig formulas, but that is not trig. I think you're formula is flawed and the only thing you're really figuring out is what the percentage of the horizontil is the veritical. In other words " the angle or the dangle equals" oh nevermind, bottom line I think you need to go back to the drawing board. IMHO, although I could be wrong.


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## Greg (Aug 17, 2006)

I think andy is right. Austin is the math geek. I'm sure he'll chime in here.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

Superstar @ Killington = ~39% slope
I used the Vermont DEM to create contours and the Vermont Orthos to see where the trail is located. I then selected the top and bottom contours (yellow lines) that determine the trail and got their difference (3700'-2580=1120'). I then measured the horizontal distance between the lines (red line = 2850'). I then calculated rise over run to get the percent of slope (1120/2580= .3929*100 = 39.3). See image

P.S. Using the same formula - The lower part of Superstar = 380' height / 811' in length =47%
The same lower section of Ovation = 380' in height / 699' in length = 54%! :-o 

Superstar:






Lower Superstar:





Lower Ovation:


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## Greg (Aug 17, 2006)

Percent of Slopes and Degrees are different. For example a slope of 45 degrees is 100% slope or something like that. Ask the trig experts...


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

> Sorry from_the_NEK, I forget my trig formulas, but that is not trig. I think you're formula is flawed and the only thing you're really figuring out is what the percentage of the horizontil is the veritical. In other words " the angle or the dangle equals" oh nevermind, bottom line I think you need to go back to the drawing board. IMHO, although I could be wrong.



You're absolutely right. :dunce:  I forgot all about the Inverse > TAN function. Hey its been 12 years since I did any Trig :razz: 

http://geology.isu.edu/geostac/Field_Exercise/topomaps/slope_calc.htm

All of the nubers have been %slope at this point. Here are the nubers converted to degrees...

Upper Warrens @ Burke - 41% = INV^TAN = 22.2 degrees
Outer Limits @ Killington - 49.8% = INV^TAN = 26.4 degrees
Superstar - 39% = INV^TAN = 21.3 degrees
Lower Section of Superstar - 47% = INV^TAN = 25.17 degrees
Lower Section of Ovation - 54% = INV^TAN = 28.36 degrees

:dunce: Sorry everyone!!:dunce:


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## andyzee (Aug 17, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> You're absolutely right. :dunce: I forgot all about the Inverse > TAN function. Hey its been 12 years since I did any Trig :razz:
> 
> http://geology.isu.edu/geostac/Field_Exercise/topomaps/slope_calc.htm
> 
> ...


 
Now it looks low, but closer to the truth  The formula you used is for % grade.:beer:


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

I think I'm going to stick with the % slope approach. :argue: 
I did know that 100% slope is a 45 degree angle. I should have put it together for a 45 degree angle:  Rise = Run :dunce:


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## JimG. (Aug 17, 2006)

The simple formula to calculate steepness:

Stand on top of pitch.

Steep=butterflys in stomach and mild case of ass puckering.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

> Now it looks low, but closer to the truth The formula you used is for % grade.



It sounds low. However, it is all coming back to me now. I took out a piece of paper a drew a isoceles right triangle with equidistant "A" and "B" sides on it. This type of triangle has the 100% slope for the hypotenuse (aka longest "C" side). The two remaining angles of the triangle =  45 degrees.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RightTriangle.html

If you bisect the triangle at the bottom 45 degree angle, you end up with a 90, 22.5, 67.5 triangle. the degree slope of the hypotenuse (aka ski slope) is 22.5 degrees. This is still quite steep if you try to visualize steping off the top of the triangle onto the slope. It seems about right as I visualize the steepness of Upper Warrens Way in comparision to the vertically growing trees on the trip up the Quad at Burke.

Any place that claims to have a 66 degree trail is on crack. You would barely be able to stand up. The cliff drop section on the Face at Jay may be the only inbounds place in the East that approaches this steepness. That is the one I will work on next.


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## andyzee (Aug 17, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> It sounds low. However, it is all coming back to me now. I took out a piece of paper a drew a isoceles right triangle with equidistant "A" and "B" sides on it. This type of triangle has the 100% slope for the hypotenuse (aka longest "C" side). The two remaining angles of the triangle = 45 degrees.
> 
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RightTriangle.html
> 
> ...


 

Now I'm getting a headache, more thinking than I care to do  And before he chimes in:


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 17, 2006)

The Face @ Jay = 56% slope
I used the Vermont DEM to create contours and the Vermont Orthos to see where the trail is located. I then selected the top and bottom contours (yellow lines) that determine the trail and got their difference (3720'-2480=240'). I then measured the horizontal distance between the lines (red line = 424'). I then calculated rise over run to get the percent of slope (240/424= .566*100 = 56.6%). See image (NOTE: these are 5 ft contours and not 20' as in the other images)

P.S. 56.6% works out to 29.5 degrees. Remember this is the entire chute. The headwall is definitely steeper than this.

In the Pump House and Saddle areas I get a reading close to 70% slope or 35 degrees. Again certain cruxes of the pitch may be steeper. (note: I'm not going to go willy-nilly and post maps of these places   )


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## AdironRider (Aug 17, 2006)

Rumor at Gore is steeper than anything at Whiteface, other than a few real steep sections of Upper Mackenzie. 

Tramline at Cannon for NH 

Cant comment on MA, VT, or CT really.


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## riverc0il (Aug 17, 2006)

ah, the annual steepness thread, lol. such a hard figure to come to a conclusion because even if you use measurements like from_the-NEK used to calculate entire run pitch, it minimizes the extreme steepness of something like jays face chutes because it averages everything out. same with the other calculations for other trails. something like paradise at MRG is only really steep for a short drop off, then is still steep but nothing too bad after that first big drop. i didn't find FIS at bush to be that steep. but that just goes to show you the relative aspect of pitch. especially when you add bumps. bumps make a pitch feel much less steep than it actually is because you can park your butt on a flat back side and the bumps really slow your descent. compared to trails that don't have bumps, equal pitch feels much steeper on a non-bump trail.

for NH, for some weird reason, kinsman always "feels" steeper than tramline to me. tramline has a huge crux move though that is substantially pitched steeper than anything else on the map in NH. hard to call, both trails are a rush for steep fans.

jay chutes for VT sounds good to me for pitch. that would of course not include the blue square run out trail.


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## Greg (Aug 17, 2006)

JimG. said:


> The simple formula to calculate steepness:
> 
> Stand on top of pitch.
> 
> Steep=butterflys in stomach and mild case of ass puckering.



That seems like the best formula to use... :lol:


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## riverc0il (Aug 17, 2006)

another formula is come to a complete stop and place your skis parallel to the fall line. if you can reach back and feel the snow without falling, you are on a steep trail.


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## AdironRider (Aug 17, 2006)

Kinsman always feel the same way to me as well Riv, but I know it isnt. Maybe in 20 foot sections it might be in spots, but its a completely different trail, as well as my personal favorite.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 17, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> another formula is come to a complete stop and place your skis parallel to the fall line. if you can reach back and feel the snow without falling, you are on a steep trail.



I don't think there is any on-piste run in the east that you can do this on?


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## riverc0il (Aug 17, 2006)

i think that is a fair assessment allskiing, i was just being funny building on jimg's humor even though that formula wouldn't apply to any eastern ski areas i know.


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## maplevalleymaster (Aug 17, 2006)

2knees said:


> only place in the east thats ever held an extreme skiing contest, as far as i know.
> 
> I cant answer the question as i know i havent skied the steepest trail in any state other than ct, and that doesnt really count.
> 
> I sincerely doubt ovation is the steepest trail in VT.



Ripcord @ Mount Snow could be one of the steepest in Vermont. As for the rest, I believe their correct.


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## JD (Aug 17, 2006)

Yea.  face chutes fresh at J is pretty darn good skiin'.


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## ski_resort_observer (Aug 17, 2006)

If your uphill ski is about at your butt and your downhill ski is 3 feet lower, you know your on a steep trail.


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## montageskier (Aug 18, 2006)

PA- White Lightning at Montage.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 18, 2006)

umm...this thread is about trails by state..its way of topic;-)


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

Big Jay - 1040' decent / 1700' distance covered = 61% grade or 31.45 degrees


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## Greg (Aug 18, 2006)

Do the Castlerock liftline. And maybe a few others at Sugarbush. The Mall maybe or Stein's?


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 18, 2006)

Greg said:


> Do the Castlerock liftline. And maybe a few others at Sugarbush. The Mall maybe or Stein's?


FIS


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

Last ones from Jay:
Steepest section of Big Jay (actually a cliff section)
Big Jay - 480' decent / 611' distance covered = 78% grade or 38 degrees






Upper Can Am
Big Jay - 460' decent / 916' distance covered = 50.2% grade or 26.6 degrees


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## dmc (Aug 18, 2006)

JimG. said:


> The simple formula to calculate steepness:
> 
> Stand on top of pitch.
> 
> Steep=butterflys in stomach and mild case of ass puckering.




Excellent..   thank you...  

Can wait to start turning with you in November...


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 18, 2006)

dmc said:


> Can wait to start turning with you in November...



I don't blame you, JimmyG. seems like a real tool. Where the hells that wink thing?


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

Sugarbush - Castlerock Liftline - 
1580' decent / 4295' distance covered = 37% grade or 20.2 degrees
Actually quite impressive for the length of the trail.






Upper Portion of Liftline - 
820' decent / 1592' distance covered = 51% grade or 27.25 degrees


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

Steins Run at Sugarbush - 
820' decent / 1643' distance covered = 49.9% grade or 26.5 degrees

Ripcord is not quite as steep 47.8%


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

FIS at Sugarbush - 
330' decent / 611' distance covered = 54% grade or 28.3 degrees


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 18, 2006)

Greg said:


> Lower K is no joke. Didn't have the energy left to drop into a bumpy K with Jim last season. I'd imagine there's stuff at Whiteface that is steeper. Rumors at Gore may be too. Haven't been to either.....yet.



I've been to Hunter once and skied K-27.  I'd say Rumor's headwall, while short, is definitely steeper.  I think it's steeper than any normal trail at Whiteface as well (putting aside the Slides), though Cloudspin and Skyward do have nice pitches.  





Greg said:


> Upper is steep, no doubt. Steepest at the Bush, I'd imagine. There are some trails at Killington that might compare.



Paradise at MRG probably has a steeper headwall.  Stein's at SB South might be close.  Ovation at Killington might compare.  I've actually still never skied Devil's Fiddle despite having been to Killington a number of times.  I'd think that Green Beret at Jay can compare too.


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## JimG. (Aug 18, 2006)

dmc said:


> Excellent..   thank you...
> 
> Can wait to start turning with you in November...



Looking forward to it buddy...I'd like to make a trip up over Labor day week for a little hiking and fishing too.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 18, 2006)

AdironRider said:


> Rumor at Gore is steeper than anything at Whiteface, other than a few real steep sections of Upper Mackenzie.
> 
> Tramline at Cannon for NH
> 
> Cant comment on MA, VT, or CT really.



Upper Mackenzie has anything that comes close to Rumor?  I've definitely skied Upper (and Lower) Mackenzie a handful of times, and while I had a lot of fun on it one day in great conditions, I did not find it to be impressively steep at all.  Rumor has it hands down over Upper Mac, IMO (i.e., based on my sense of being on the trail, without having calculated the actual pitch).


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 18, 2006)

NEK, thanks for all the info and time.  All very interesting, but I think an issue that some have acknowledged (NEK included) is that those numbers are for the entire trails...Are we looking in this thread for the trail with the highest average pitch, or the trail with the largest pitch for some minimum length (whatever the length may be)?  In my couple posts to the thread, I was thinking about the latter.  I.e., I believe Rumor clearly has the steepest headwall of any trail I've skied in NY (except maybe the Slides at Whiteface), and perhaps VT (including Ovation, FIS, Steins, and Paradise), but I would doubt if you look at average pitch that it would rank so highly, because it has a long, rather flat, middle portion.

Regarding Castlerock, except perhaps a couple small places on Liftline, I never thought of those trails being exceptionally steep.. It's more the narrowness, windiness, moguls, and general lack of flatness that make them some of the best trails in the east, IMO.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

MRG Paradise - 
720' decent / 1216' distance covered = 59% grade or 30.6 degrees


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## Greg (Aug 18, 2006)

from_the_NEK - your next assignments:


Ripcord at Mount Snow
Rumor at Gore
White Nitro at da Loaf (ext and below the crossover)
Gondi Line (Sugarloaf), top to bottom. I'd be interested to see what the overall sustained is there...


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

The Chute/Liftline combination from the "top" to "bottom" at MRG is a 39% grade or 21 degrees for 2000 feet. That is pretty good. :argue:


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## Marc (Aug 18, 2006)

Greg said:


> from_the_NEK - your next assignments:
> 
> 
> Ripcord at Mount Snow
> ...



Yeah, I'm curious about Ripcord.  They claim 35 degrees.  I'd believe it having been down it a few times.



Notice how I didn't say "skied" just "been down it."


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

> from_the_NEK - your next assignments:
> 
> Ripcord at Mount Snow
> Rumor at Gore
> ...



I'll do Ripcord. The others are going to be harder since I don't have the DEMs and the Aerial imagery for these other states to do it well. I have also been negleting work for the last day and a half working on this question   

Ripcord @ Mt Snow - 
(FYI - I only did the steepest upper section since if I included the lower section this trail wouldn't even be in the debate @ 35%)
3300-2910 = 390 ft rise
820' run
47% slope or 25.4 degrees


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## JimG. (Aug 18, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> The Chute/Liftline combination from the "top" to "bottom" at MRG is a 39% grade or 21 degrees for 2000 feet. That is pretty good. :argue:



Does this include the Tower 5 cliffs?


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

So far this is what I've come up with:

*Summary of Vermont Steep trails:*
Upper Warrens @ Burke - 41% or 22.2 degrees  
Outer Limits @ Killington - 49.8% or 26.4 degrees
Superstar @ Killington - 39% or 21.3 degrees
Lower Section of Superstar @ Killington - 47% or 25.17 degrees
Lower Section of Ovation @ Killington - 54% or 28.36 degrees
The Face @ Jay - 56.6% or 29.5 degrees
Upper Can Am @ Jay – 50.2% or 26.6 degrees
Liftline @ Sugarbush – 37% or 20.2 degrees
Upper Liftline @ Sugarbush – 51% 27.25 degrees
Steins Run @ Sugarbush – 49.9% 26.5 degrees
FIS @ Sugarbush – 54% or 28.3 degrees
*Paradise @ MRG – 59% or 30.6 degrees*
Ripcord @ Mt. Snow – 47% or 25.4 degrees

Non-Marked Trails:
The Pump House and Saddle @ Jay – 70% or 35 degrees
Big Jay – 61% or 31.5 degrees (steepest section of cliffs 78% or 38 degrees)

It looks like the winner is Paradise at MRG  with the Face at Jay a very close 2nd :smile: . 

There are probably some other OB trails out there that are crazy steep as well. :smash: :argue: :smash:


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

> Does this include the Tower 5 cliffs?


Yes, I included pretty much the entire run under the single chair.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 18, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> So far this is what I've come up with:
> 
> *Summary of Vermont Steep trails:*
> *Paradise @ MRG – 59% or 30.6 degrees*
> ...




Thanks!  Sorry if you answered this, but for Paradise, did you do the entire trail, or did you try to isolate the steep part as you did for Ripcord at Mt. Snow?


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 18, 2006)

> Thanks! Sorry if you answered this, but for Paradise, did you do the entire trail, or did you try to isolate the steep part as you did for Ripcord at Mt. Snow?



I tried to start where I felt the end of the traverse would be and I ended at the outlet onto Fox. I last skied MRG 4 years ago and have never skied Paradise. So if I have it marked incorrectly on the map let me know.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 18, 2006)

kcyanks1 said:


> Upper Mackenzie has anything that comes close to Rumor?  I've definitely skied Upper (and Lower) Mackenzie a handful of times, and while I had a lot of fun on it one day in great conditions, I did not find it to be impressively steep at all.  Rumor has it hands down over Upper Mac, IMO (i.e., based on my sense of being on the trail, without having calculated the actual pitch).



On skiers right on Upper Mac there are 2 big drop offs. With a little speed you can clear them, as many people do or you can take a couple of turns. I think that's what A-ride is referring too. 

Rumors headwall isn't what it use to be. Don't get me wrong it is steep, but ever since they had that snowmaking induced ice chunk avi they don't let snow build up on top of it like they use to so the drop off isn't as steep.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 18, 2006)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> On skiers right on Upper Mac there are 2 big drop offs. With a little speed you can clear them, as many people do or you can take a couple of turns. I think that's what A-ride is referring too.
> 
> Rumors headwall isn't what it use to be. Don't get me wrong it is steep, but ever since they had that snowmaking induced ice chunk avi they don't let snow build up on top of it like they use to so the drop off isn't as steep.



I guess I'll have to pay more attention to that the next time I'm at Whiteface...Still doesn't sound like potentially clearing a drop-off is comparable to Rumor's headwall, though.  I do agree that Gore has make Rumor easier, though I'm not sure how the steepness compares to what it was.  The first year it was a little narrower and they didn't groom the headwall, and the middle was essentially an unskiable cliff.  You had to go to down skier's right, which kind of had a double fall line, I think, or a very narrow area at skier's left.  Then they widened the trial and started grooming it down the center, and you can go right down the center of the trial.  It's still steeper than any trail I've skied in the east, I think, but less of a challenge.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 18, 2006)

NEK -- I think your positioning of Paradise is reasonable, though perhaps it might be a little closer to Chute and Fall Line, where there is a more apparent opening within the trees.  It's pretty much a real trail with some scattered trees, or at least has been since the ice storm of some years ago (I never skied it before).  Someone who is more familiar with MRG can probably do a better job verifying the location.


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## AdironRider (Aug 18, 2006)

I was refering to those drop offs HPD, they arent very long, but they sure are steep for a few brief moments. Maybe they seem steeper than they are given that trail usually isnt the best snow conditions wise, it seems its always one of the first trails to close due to being to icy. I still love it though, probably my favorite run on the whole mtn.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 18, 2006)

AdironRider said:


> I was refering to those drop offs HPD, they arent very long, but they sure are steep for a few brief moments. Maybe they seem steeper than they are given that trail usually isnt the best snow conditions wise, it seems its always one of the first trails to close due to being to icy. I still love it though, probably my favorite run on the whole mtn.



It is a very worthy trail, without a doubt one of my favorites. It's a classic.


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## riverc0il (Aug 18, 2006)

kcyanks1 said:


> I'd think that Green Beret at Jay can compare too.


the first pitch of green beret skier's left is definitely good and steep, i would guess a 30 degree pitch or so, maybe slightly more. i lost a ski on green beret trying to ski over some rocks and crusty snow last season. when i went to start climbing to retrieve my ski after a nice and long fall, it definitely felt similar to climbing up something like gulf of slides or hillmans. just that top "headwall" aspect, green beret flattens out pretty quickly.


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## riverc0il (Aug 18, 2006)

one of the problems of drawing straight lines to judge steepness is many turns flatten out. a really good example of how flattening out could effect overall steepness is something like middle hard at cannon. mid hard has those turns where there is a short sideways that is very low pitch, but you drop a good 10% of the run between those flat traverses. mid hard isn't that steep, but doint a line top to bottom would make the run seem alot easlier compared to something else at cannon, say profile or skylight, that drop right off but don't feel as steep.

i am amazed that paradise came out above jay face chutes. paradise is a steep trail, but it didn't feel that steep. compared to looking at the face chutes, yikes! that is a good drop. i still haven't done the face chutes due to not liking the conditions i have seen when they were open and i was there. i'll have to report back on that one next year, lol.


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## kcyanks1 (Aug 19, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> the first pitch of green beret skier's left is definitely good and steep, i would guess a 30 degree pitch or so, maybe slightly more. i lost a ski on green beret trying to ski over some rocks and crusty snow last season. when i went to start climbing to retrieve my ski after a nice and long fall, it definitely felt similar to climbing up something like gulf of slides or hillmans. just that top "headwall" aspect, green beret flattens out pretty quickly.



Yup, it does flatten out.  Same with Rumor at Gore, and probably other trails people have mentioned that I am less familiar with.  FIS and Steins have more of a sustained pitch than Rumor or Green Beret, but I think their steepest parts that would be in the "steepest [part of a] trail" discussion are still not terribly long, even if they are longer than Rumor or Green Beret.


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## koreshot (Aug 19, 2006)

I just have a comment on Jay.  This spring I skied Face Chutes, Tuckermans, Saddle and Pump House back to back in a single day.  Subjectively, the Saddle is by far the steepest, followed by Pump House.  The Saddle has a nice long runout (relatively speaking), which in my book makes the Pump House the most challenging trail to ski well at Jay. Its steep, the pitch is sustained, its narrow and has no real runout - gotta ski it right all the way down.

On another note, how come no1 has mentioned the front 5 at Stowe, I would have thought at least one or two are nearing 30 deg.


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## riverc0il (Aug 19, 2006)

koreshot said:


> On another note, how come no1 has mentioned the front 5 at Stowe, I would have thought at least one or two are nearing 30 deg.


you've skied the stuff off the ridge at jay but find the front four at stowe steep! :-o i can't speak for either starr or goat because i have not skied them, but national and liftline are most definitely not steep trails. the very top of national is pretty steep for about 100-150 verts tops. i would be surprised if national and liftline were more than 20 degrees top to bottom, maybe less considering how many times liftline flattens out.


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## koreshot (Aug 19, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> you've skied the stuff off the ridge at jay but find the front four at stowe steep! :-o



I was just asking - I have only skied National at Stowe because both times I have been there the other front 5, in particular Goat, were closed.

Saddle this spring is hands down the toughest trail I have skied on EC.  The snow was starting to melt, the coverage wasn't all that good and the 4 bands of rocks and ice running perpendicular to the fall line had turned it into a mini quad-stager.


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## eatskisleep (Aug 19, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> In the Pump House and Saddle areas I get a reading close to 70% slope or 35 degrees. Again certain cruxes of the pitch may be steeper. (note: I'm not going to go willy-nilly and post maps of these places   )


 
Ahh yes, the good old pumphouse. Don't know where Saddle is though? :-? 

Anyhway, how exactally do you add the countour lines to google earth? Any for NH? Thanks.


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## wintersyndrome (Aug 21, 2006)

OK its not east coast but its one of the steepest drops I ever did  Out of bounds, near Blue Sky Basin---Vail, CO with about 3 light fluffy colorado crude


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## andyzee (Aug 21, 2006)

I always liked the saying "a pictures worth a 1000 words"


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 21, 2006)

The hike up the Face is steep.


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## Greg (Aug 21, 2006)

andyzee said:


> I always liked the saying "a pictures worth a 1000 words"


Pitch is always hard to capture accurately with a photo, but I think this shot demonstrates the steepness of White Nitro Extension at Sugarloaf:


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## koreshot (Aug 21, 2006)

andyzee said:


> I always liked the saying "a pictures worth a 1000 words"



Where the F is that?  Is that a trail at killington?  Either the camera action is adding 20 degrees of pitch to the trail or its the steepest marked/legal trail this side of Denton, PA.


EDIT:  definitely the camera work.  the trees on the far side of the trail are nowhere near vertical.


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## JimG. (Aug 21, 2006)

koreshot said:


> Where the F is that?  Is that a trail at killington?



That's Ovation at Killington, the lower headwall to be exact.


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## ALLSKIING (Aug 21, 2006)

Greg said:


> Pitch is always hard to capture accurately with a photo, but I think this shot demonstrates the steepness of White Nitro Extension at Sugarloaf:


Really..See, I thought that shot makes the run look flat.:???:


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## andyzee (Aug 21, 2006)

JimG. said:


> That's Ovation at Killington, the lower headwall to be exact.


 
Actually not the headwall, but lower Ovation. Yes the camera pitch may make it look a bit steeper, but not much. I tried rotating this pic a bit so that the trees were pointing straight up, and it didn't look much less steep. And quite frankly, I don't believe that there was much angle in the way I was holding the camera. That lower part is one steep slope.


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## Greg (Aug 21, 2006)

ALLSKIING said:


> Really..See, I thought that shot makes the run look flat.:???:



See what I mean about trying to capture pitch in a photo? Concentrate on the tower at the summit and the sun. I don't know; maybe becuase I took the shot I can visualize the actual steepness...


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## andyzee (Aug 21, 2006)

Greg said:


> See what I mean about trying to capture pitch in a photo? Concentrate on the tower at the summit and the sun. I don't know; maybe becuase I took the shot I can visualize the actual steepness...


 
I think that you will never catch the steepness of a slope if you shoot it from the bottom looking up. You need to get it from the side.


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## Greg (Aug 21, 2006)

andyzee said:


> I think that you will never catch the steepness of a slope if you shoot it from the bottom looking up. You need to get it from the side.



Or from a somewhat equivalent elevation some distance away looking straight at it. For example, this shot of Jiminy from the condos on the hill across the street make Jericho, Whitetail and Upper Whirlaway look pretty steep:


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## andyzee (Aug 21, 2006)

Greg said:


> Or from a somewhat equivalent elevation some distance away looking straight at it. For example, this shot of Jiminy from the condos on the hill across the street make Jericho, Whitetail and Upper Whirlaway look pretty steep:


 

Yeah that shot show the steepness pretty good. I think the lift poles on that one help a lot. Plus the fact that it's taken from further away helps a lot.


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## andyzee (Aug 21, 2006)

andyzee said:


> Yeah that shot show the steepness pretty good. I think the lift poles on that one help a lot. Plus the fact that it's taken from further away helps a lot.


 

One more thing, it looks like I gotta check out Jiminy


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## riverc0il (Aug 21, 2006)

andyzee said:


> I think that you will never catch the steepness of a slope if you shoot it from the bottom looking up.


getting close to the snow helps from the bottom up


but then again, sometimes a steep trail just looks steep from the bottom -- and that isn't even the steepest part of tram line


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## tirolerpeter (Aug 21, 2006)

*Steep?*



JimG. said:


> That's Ovation at Killington, the lower headwall to be exact.



Yep, and to the left in the picture is the "Escape" route if you have second thoughts.  I love Ovation when it is NOT icy.  Icy moguls are not smart for "old guys."


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## Marc (Aug 21, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> getting close to the snow helps from the bottom up
> 
> 
> but then again, sometimes a steep trail just looks steep from the bottom -- and that isn't even the steepest part of tram line



I'd give my left nut to ski tramline with conditions like that.


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 21, 2006)

Since I didn't do any stowe trails here are four of the front five. I threw out National since it covers the same general terrain as Liftline but is wider and goes slightly across the falline.
Additionally, I didn't do the full length of the trails. I just did the steepest upper section of the trails before they start to flatten out.

Goat:
1320 rise / 2837' Run = 46.5% or 25 degrees
Upper 1/4 of the trail: 380' rise / 740' Run = 51% or 27 degrees
(Note Stowe's website claims 36 degrees)

Liftline:
1300' Rise / 2857' Run = 45.5% or 24.5 degrees

Starr:
1080' Rise / 2254' = 48% or 25.6 degrees

Lookout:
1060' Rise / 2098' Run = 50.5% or 26.8 degrees


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 21, 2006)

> I'd give my left nut to ski tramline with conditions like that.



Damn it, I AM going to ski that trail this year :flame: 
Every time I drive through the notch, I almost hit the guard rail as I stare at the "Line". 8)


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## awf170 (Aug 21, 2006)

When looking downhill try to zoom in a little or crop out the foreground.

Original picture:





After being cropped:





Original picture:





After being cropped:





People can also be a good judge of steepness.





Then some stuff just looks wicked steep because it is.  And probably because of the funkyness of the angle.





And I agree with Greg on distance shots.


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## Ski Diva (Aug 22, 2006)

Believe it or not, I'm reading this thread so I know what to stay away from.

What a wuss.

(At least I know my limitations -- and I'm not afraid to admit it!)


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## highpeaksdrifter (Aug 22, 2006)

Ski Diva said:


> Believe it or not, I'm reading this thread so I know what to stay away from.
> 
> What a wuss.
> 
> (At least I know my limitations -- and I'm not afraid to admit it!)



That's cause you're not a man. We are afraid to admit our limitations. Also I've read that men tend to overestimate their atheltic abilities and women underestimate theirs.

Viva La Difference 8)


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## AdironRider (Aug 22, 2006)

I second that. No trail is going to hold me back. Famous last words.


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## SkiZone (Aug 22, 2006)

i think k-27 isnt that steep mayb becuase im just used to it?
anybody think different?


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## JimG. (Aug 23, 2006)

SkiZone said:


> i think k-27 isnt that steep mayb becuase im just used to it?
> anybody think different?



You must be a Hunter regular like me...overall it isn't that steep, especially the runout which is probably more than half of the length of the run. But the top 100 or so vertical feet are genuinely steep, especially if you start your K27 runs on the shoulder of upper K and dive in before the turn into East Side Drive. Then, I'd say the top 150 or so vertical feet are steep. And alot depends on the snowmaking too. When they blow huge whales the top 25 or so vertical feet border on 50 degrees or so. But only for a very short while.


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## dmc (Aug 23, 2006)

K27


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## eatskisleep (Aug 23, 2006)

from_the_NEK said:


> The hike up the Face is steep.


 
That going towards the Saddle?

Anyway how do you get the topo maps for google earth?


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## JimG. (Aug 23, 2006)

dmc said:


> K27



Nice visuals to demo my opinion about K27!


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 23, 2006)

> That going towards the Saddle?
> 
> Anyway how do you get the topo maps for google earth?



The picture is from a hike up the face (circled in Red in the attached picture I am "borrowing" from Riverc0il)

I did not use Google Earth for the maps that I made. The aerial imagery may be the same set that Google Earth uses. However, I created all of the map in this thread using ArcView 3.3. This is a Geographic Information System (GIS) program. I loaded a "raster" Digital Elevation Model (DEM) that I was able to have the software generate contours from. Most of the contours at a 20 foot intervals.


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## pOwDeRfreerider101 (Aug 26, 2006)

Ive skied Face chute at Jay and it was steep and deep... I heard that the trails Pumphouse and the Saddle are steeper... But where are they?


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## John84 (Aug 26, 2006)

pOwDeRfreerider101 said:


> Ive skied Face chute at Jay and it was steep and deep... I heard that the trails Pumphouse and the Saddle are steeper... But where are they?



Gotta do a little poking around to find them.


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## kingslug (Aug 26, 2006)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I really don't understand all the fascination with "steepness" that some skiers have ... Do you straight line it for speed? Jump turns for the fun? Or you just enjoy being only seconds from death?



Some people are just wired this way. We like steep, fast, danger, anything that gets the heart going. And some people like cross country skiing.


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## kingslug (Aug 26, 2006)

http://www.skimag.com/skimag/features/article/0,12795,325869,00.html

This was steep.


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## dmc (Aug 26, 2006)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I really don't understand all the fascination with "steepness" that some skiers have ... Do you straight line it for speed? Jump turns for the fun? Or you just enjoy being only seconds from death?




Steep is fun...  
It presents a whole new set of challenges that come with the terrain.

I either straightline or jump turn - depends...

Your seconds from death at every moment in your life...  Might as well enjoy it!


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## Greg (Aug 26, 2006)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I really don't understand all the fascination with "steepness" that some skiers have ... Do you straight line it for speed? Jump turns for the fun? Or you just enjoy being only seconds from death?



I like steep but not for speed or "being only seconds from death". I like to make quick controlled turns to keep my speed down on steep terrain. There's not much that I've skied (I currently stay in bounds) where I've been seconds from death. With two little ones, I can't afford to put myself in that situation. In fact, a few years back I jumped into upper FIS at Sugarbush from the skier's right entrance, not knowing that's notorious for bing very steep and icey (real glare ice, not hardpack). I immediately went down and slid a good distance. Stopping was difficult. Luckily I was able to keep my skis downhill and my edges doing what they're supposed in that siuation. I humbly climbed out of FIS and took Rim Run down.


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## kingslug (Aug 26, 2006)

Greg said:


> I like steep but not for speed or "being only seconds from death". I like to make quick controlled turns to keep my speed down on steep terrain. There's not much that I've skied (I currently stay in bounds) where I've been seconds from death. With two little ones, I can't afford to put myself in that situation. In fact, a few years back I jumped into upper FIS at Sugarbush from the skier's right entrance, not knowing that's notorious for bing very steep and icey (real glare ice, not hardpack). I immediately went down and slid a good distance. Stopping was difficult. Luckily I was able to keep my skis downhill and my edges doing what they're supposed in that siuation. I humbly climbed out of FIS and took Rim Run down.



And here is what makes steep in the East so different form the west. I've skied things out west that I wouldn't dare to here. The possibility of hitting ice and sliding 1000 feet. I don't worry about this out there. Yes they do get ice in the west but I have rarely hit it and can usualy bail out into snow again. This is why I will always say that if you can ski the steeps in the east, you can ski anywhere.


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## dmc (Aug 26, 2006)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I look for steep runs on powder days but tend to shy away when there is ice or hardpack conditions. I feel like I am being shot out of a cannon and then I go down.....



Being able to stay in control on ice is something I dig..  I love an icey, gnarly trails...  
Cause - no matter what people say - you do run into ice out west - and when you find it - it's usually someplace where you have to ski it...  Like in a chute in the shade after a big freeze thaw.. 
It's totally posible to make turns on ice - even on a snowboard...


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## SnowMiser (Aug 27, 2006)

Ski Diva said:


> Believe it or not, I'm reading this thread so I know what to stay away from.
> 
> What a wuss.
> 
> (At least I know my limitations -- and I'm not afraid to admit it!)



Aw, c'mon!  Give a few of these trails a shot. They can only kill you ONCE!!!

Seriously, pick a day when conditions are good (none of the aforementioned trails are fun when they're icy) and go for it. Skiing more challenging terrain is the only way to get better.  You may find that your limitations are more advanced than you thought.

Besides, when you get to the bottom and look uphill at what you just skied, you get one hell of a feeling of accomplishment.  (Either that or become convinced that you're nuts)

I also know my limitations, but that doesn't stop me too often.  If it did, I'd have missed out on a lot of GREAT runs.

Thanks to Andyzee and DMC for the pictures of lower Ovation and K-27.  They remind me that I'M nuts!


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## Nick (Feb 21, 2012)

Bump ... I had a good time at MRG on Paradise and it was steep but I have no concept of how it compares to others really. The moguls also throw it off because you can almost stand on the uphill side of the bump. 

I have to say I always appreciate steepness more when I can see the trees coming out of the ground at a steep angle


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## bobbutts (Feb 21, 2012)

Steepness is only scary to me if it's hard/icy conditions or tight with rocks or trees.. A steep run with soft snow/powder and room to move around is actually pretty easy to ski or snowboard.


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## legalskier (Feb 23, 2012)

Noreasterbackcountry's latest TR links to this page which uses Google Earth's "path" tool- looks like Jay's Face Chutes win it for inbounds, with Devil's Fiddle and Nosedive vying for second (assuming it has measured all trails discussed here).  And those trails don't even approach the steepest out of bounds areas.

http://nebackcountry.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-steep-is-it.html


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 23, 2012)

I think somethings wrong if they say Upper Goat is the same steepness as Upper Nosedise.  Is that possible?


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## noreasterbackcountry (Feb 23, 2012)

The GoogleEarth tool has some limitations and really only gives you a ballpark figure on steepness.

For one, the average steepness rating is affected by where you start and stop your measurement.  Further, the "max steepness" may not pick up very short drops (like a six foot cliff... or a series of them).

Also, I didn't look at all trails in the Northeast... so there may be some that are steeper than the ones that I listed.

In the end, take the numbers with a grain of salt.  They give you and idea of how steep a particular trail is, but it is nowhere near definitive.


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## legalskier (Feb 23, 2012)

ski_resort_observer said:


> I remeber reading somewhere that the steepest trail in the east is at a small ski area in PA but can't remember the name. When I get some time I will see if I can find that again.



Ski Denton:

_Avalanche @ Ski Denton: 500 vertical over 1002 length = 26.52*.
307 vertical over 500 length = 31.55*.
164 vertical over 200 length = 39.35*.
*94 vertical over 100 length = 43.23*.* And this is high resolution. This is hugging skier's left of the top part of the run._

And don't forget-

_Extrovert @ Blue Knob, PA: 634 vertical over 1317 length = 25.71*.
*124 vertical over 188 length = 33.41**. Upper Extrovert (assuming it ends when intersecting with Lower Route 66). PA steeps?
510 vertical over 1092 length = 25.03*. Lower Extrovert (assuming it starts when intersecting with Lower Route 66).
324 vertical over 567 length = 29.75*._

http://ski-degrees.synthasite.com/pennsylvania.php


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## kingslug (Feb 23, 2012)

This is steep..most terrifying thing I have ever done, doesn't look it but its about 52 degrees at the top and 1 turn wide..






This was next to it and much easier at a solid 45 degrees..the difference between this and what we get here..no ice.


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## bigbob (Feb 23, 2012)

I heard that Lower Ovation was about as steep as you can have in the east without having an avalanche.


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## Beast_Ed (Feb 23, 2012)

Ripcord at Mt Snow is pretty steep


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## ERJ-145CA (Feb 23, 2012)

This article is pretty interesting:
http://www.skiernet.com/angle-of-ski-trails.html

In Jersey I think it's Pipeline at Mountain Creek - 28.6 degrees.  Trail didn't open this season.


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## kingslug (Feb 23, 2012)

ERJ-145CA said:


> This article is pretty interesting:
> http://www.skiernet.com/angle-of-ski-trails.html
> 
> In Jersey I think it's Pipeline at Mountain Creek - 28.6 degrees.  Trail didn't open this season.



hmmm. I skied pipeline many moons ago..about 3 turns on ice...


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## Nick (Apr 4, 2012)

bump along with the "most challenging" threads. This might have some parallels. 

Sent from my Transformer TF101 using Tapatalk


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