# Vail Purchases Okemo, Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass



## Zand (Jun 4, 2018)

http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/vailresorts/tpsp.htm#.WxU4tR-mnp0.facebook

Not really a surprise considering the move to the epic pass. Wonder what this means for the sale of Burke and Jay.


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## gregnye (Jun 4, 2018)

Zand said:


> http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/vailresorts/tpsp.htm#.WxU4tR-mnp0.facebook
> 
> Not really a surprise considering the move to the epic pass. Wonder what this means for the sale of Burke and Jay.



Just what I feared. Skiing is basically an monopoly now. Vail resorts really is the worst thing to happen to this sport.

Colorado locals must be pissed. The list of vail owned resorts there must be longer than  non-vail resorts now


And it's not like Vail resorts is adding anything to the industry. They are not reviving abandoned ski areas like Saddleback. No, they are taking areas that already do pretty well and buying them out, overrunning the local communities with increased crowds and people from out of state and the super-rich.


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## ironhippy (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Just what I feared. Skiing is basically an monopoly now. Vail resorts really is the worst thing to happen to this sport.



It is interesting, the Walmartification of skiing.

At first skiers were pumped, a 500$ pass to how many resorts??
Now it's the exact opposite. 

Can Vail keep it going? What happens in X amount of years if Vail fails? 
The entire north america ski industry seems to depend on Vail now.


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## gregnye (Jun 4, 2018)

ironhippy said:


> It is interesting, the Walmartification of skiing.
> 
> At first skiers were pumped, a 500$ pass to how many resorts??
> Now it's the exact opposite.
> ...



We know that Vail will never fail. If they do they'll just plead innocent to the government for money, kinda like the phone carriers. And I suspect the $500 passes will soon be gone. Once they control enough of the market you'll be forced to pay whatever Robert Katz and the Vail Executives want.

To summarize: The rich get richer, skiing continues to become a more expensive sport, the smaller areas continue to suffer.


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## Vaughn (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> No, they are taking areas that already do pretty well and buying them out, overrunning the local communities with increased crowds and people from out of state and the super-rich.



I don't get this take. The local communities economies are largely based on tourism - the folks who own restaurants, inns, etc.. in Ludlow are going to be hurt by more business due to Vail buying Okemo? I've never been to Okemo but I have a hard time believing a mountain that size right off of 91 isn't pulling in a ton of business from people in MA, CT and NY. You make is sound like Vail bought out Magic or something. 

I can't see the 'super-rich' turning Ludlow VT into Zermatt or Aspen anytime soon.


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## gregnye (Jun 4, 2018)

Vaughn said:


> I don't get this take. The local communities economies are largely based on tourism - the folks who own restaurants, inns, etc.. in Ludlow are going to be hurt by more business due to Vail buying Okemo? I've never been to Okemo but I have a hard time believing a mountain that size right off of 91 isn't pulling in a ton of business from people in MA, CT and NY. You make is sound like Vail bought out Magic or something.
> 
> I can't see the 'super-rich' turning Ludlow VT into Zermatt or Aspen anytime soon.



I agree with you that these towns already receive tourism and people from out of state. However the ownership of a resort attracts a certain type of people to it. For example MRG gets hardcore visitors, while Killington might get "party-skiers' and Stowe might attract wealthy people from New York.

A change to Vail resorts might change the demographic in Ludlow. I've been to Vail (the actual mountain) a few times, and the people it attracts are obnoxious "powder-hounds" in porsche cayenne's and not the usual vermont "subuaru local" crowds


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## djd66 (Jun 4, 2018)

Not sure why people are up in arms about this.  I don't ski either area - so not much personal effect on me.  But if i did - I would be very happy, as now I can ski multiple resorts on 1 pass.   What's wrong with that?


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## FBGM (Jun 4, 2018)

Vail likes the nice upscale doin’ good resorts to buy. So peak resorts has nothing to worry about


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## speden (Jun 4, 2018)

I wonder if this will trigger Alterra to buy some northeast resorts. I wouldn't mind having a few more northeast areas with unlimited access on the Ikon pass.


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 4, 2018)

Okemo and Sunapee seem like a perfect fit for Vail.  Overpriced ego cruising mountains.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jun 4, 2018)

If only Peaks bought one western mountain.... looks like they are all accounted for now! 

Where does someone with a Peak Pass ski out west if they want to avoid the mega-conglomerates??!!


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## Zand (Jun 4, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> If only Peaks bought one western mountain.... looks like they are all accounted for now!
> 
> Where does someone with a Peak Pass ski out west if they want to avoid the mega-conglomerates??!!



Loveland? I think that's it for CO now lol


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Just what I feared. Skiing is basically an monopoly now. Vail resorts really is the worst thing to happen to this sport.
> 
> Colorado locals must be pissed. The list of vail owned resorts there must be longer than  non-vail resorts now
> 
> ...



Super Rich?  The Epic Pass is actually LOWER than most pass products.  What they are doing is getting city skiers and riders to subsidize their operations while only skiing maybe 10 days a year.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Colorado locals must be pissed. The list of vail owned resorts there must be longer than  non-vail resorts now


Why should Colorado locals care about Vail buying up northeast resorts? 

And your rant about the rich getting richer is even harder to deride...

Actually, I know quite a few Colorado locals. They're not pissed in any way. Maybe a few raised eyebrows. That's it. They've been enjoying RMSP or Vail for years. Some have both. Telluride and Crested Butte locals may feel differently, I don't know. But for the Front Rangers, the coming season means they get to take a couple weekender to either Aspen or Crested Butte/Telluride. Not a bad addition.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

Zand said:


> http://news.vailresorts.com/corporate/vailresorts/tpsp.htm#.WxU4tR-mnp0.facebook
> 
> Not really a surprise considering the move to the epic pass. Wonder what this means for the sale of Burke and Jay.



As much as I am a Burke Homer, I will be the first to admit that a Vail purchase was a huge long shot.  When Vail bought Stowe last year they made it clear that they are NOT looking for bargains but instead established brands.  Look at their history--they buy resorts that are established big names and good businesses.  The idea that they are going to buy a relatively remote and obscure resort that is struggling is just not their MO.  Someone mentioned Saddleback.  Would you as a Vail advisor even consider that?  No.  Is it sad?  Sure.  It is what it is.  

I was surprised to hear the announcement.  In my mind Vail had gotten pretty big.  But then again, the Muellers are probably ready to retire.  They had their kid(s) running Crested Butte but the whole operation was a lease-back proposition if I understand it correctly with CNL's successor owning the land.  

They are also getting three resorts for the price of two.  Sunapee is a lease.  Okemo and Sunapee are established brands in the Boston market.  Now a Bostonian can have a pass that is good for Okemo, Sunapee, and Stowe.  That is a good option.  

Will the resorts get more crowded?  Yes.  I think that they can handle it though.  Sunapee only logged 186k skier days last season as opposed to their 250k average.  

Some may think this is like ASC.  I think it is better.  If a New Englander wants a multi-resort pass, one can choose the Sunday River/Sugarloaf/Loon option, the Mount Snow/Crotched/Wildcat/Attitash Option, the Killington/Pico option, or the Okemo/Sunapee/Stowe Option.  Pretty good choices.


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## mbedle (Jun 4, 2018)

Not sure if I am getting this right, but it looks like not only did they purchase the resorts from Triple Peaks for 82 million, but they are also buying out the underlying leases with Oz Real Estate for 155 million.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Not sure if I am getting this right, but it looks like not only did they purchase the resorts from Triple Peaks for 82 million, but they are also buying out the underlying leases with Oz Real Estate for 155 million.



Makes sense.  They want to have complete control.


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## Zand (Jun 4, 2018)

I don't see this meaning much for Okemo as far as sweeping changes. It's already full of huge condos and weekenders from New York. It's certainly a step below Stowe and Stratton in the snob factor but it's not some typical small family run place either. 

Sunapee on the other hand is interesting. No condos there. Mainly a daytripper crowd and half the city of Boston is there on holidays (the other half is at Loon). Not much they can do to change it there either.

Well also have to see how season pass sales do now that Killington is on an island in southern VT with no pass connections to anywhere while everyone else except Stratton is hooked into large pass (not including Ikon). We'll see if the majority of people go for the multi mountain pass or if Killington succeeds on its own.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

Zand said:


> I don't see this meaning much for Okemo as far as sweeping changes. It's already full of huge condos and weekenders from New York. It's certainly a step below Stowe and Stratton in the snob factor but it's not some typical small family run place either.
> 
> Sunapee on the other hand is interesting. No condos there. Mainly a daytripper crowd and half the city of Boston is there on holidays (the other half is at Loon). Not much they can do to change it there either.



Well, IIRC their expansion plan was approved after years of fighting.  So Vail might be interested in doing that.


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## benski (Jun 4, 2018)

This is screwed up. They are accumulating too much market power and are going to screw skiers. Especially anyone who which will hurt all the newcomers to the sport the most, but also independent ski areas like Magic who need to sell tickets to people who also ski at these mountains.


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## benski (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Well, IIRC their expansion plan was approved after years of fighting.  So Vail might be interested in doing that.



Vail has small ski areas in the midwest, to complement there major resorts.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

benski said:


> Vail has small ski areas in the midwest, to complement there major resorts.



Small *feeder hills* for their bigger resorts.  Located near big midwestern cities and designed for beginners.


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## xlr8r (Jun 4, 2018)

Very interesting move that after the fact seems obvious, but I did not seeing it coming beforehand.  I guess I thought the Muellers were in it for the long haul.  Might shake up my still undetermined plans for tickets/passes next year as $669 for unlimited Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee is a great deal for a Boston area based skier.  Wonder if we will see any reaction from Alterra or Boyne, as they now do not compare well with the Epic when it comes to pass pricing.  Ikon has already passed its low price deadline, and the New England Pass now seems way overpriced as the Gold is almost twice the price of the Epic Local.

As far as future changes, I think the first thing Vail will do to Okemo is replace one of the South Ridge lifts with a detachable.  For Sunapee I wonder if this changes the already established plans of moving lifts around on North Peak.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I agree with you that these towns already receive tourism and people from out of state. However the ownership of a resort attracts a certain type of people to it. For example MRG gets hardcore visitors, while Killington might get "party-skiers' and Stowe might attract wealthy people from New York.
> 
> A change to Vail resorts might change the demographic in Ludlow. I've been to Vail (the actual mountain) a few times, and the people it attracts are obnoxious "powder-hounds" in porsche cayenne's and not the usual vermont "subuaru local" crowds


Lmfao dude you ever go to okemo on the weekends or just weekdays? That place is as bad as Stratton for the snob factor, maybe even worse because at least Stratton has to bring in tons of employees that are relaxed locals. Vail buying okemo makes ALL the sense in the world for corporate and will be viewed as a major moment in the business someday when the whole thing falls apart. 

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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

This is great news.  

I'm all for MTN adding more debt to its' balance sheet by purchasing crappy hills, thus decreasing the likelihood they'll buy Smuggler's Notch.


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## gregnye (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Super Rich?  The Epic Pass is actually LOWER than most pass products.  What they are doing is getting city skiers and riders to subsidize their operations while only skiing maybe 10 days a year.



Yes the Epic Pass is low--for now! Not for long though. Once they have complete control it will be whatever they desire.

Monopolies are never a good thing. Just see Comcast.

Also, I like quality over quantity. I'm willing to pay a couple hundred more dollars for a pass if I don't have to put up with such aggressive rich wannabes from New York in Porsche Cayenne's and Chevy Suburbans thatplay loud music from their bluetooth speakers while skiing.


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## boston_e (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Super Rich?  The Epic Pass is actually LOWER than most pass products.  What they are doing is getting city skiers and riders to subsidize their operations while only skiing maybe 10 days a year.



On the flip side their day ticket prices are 2x higher than most day tickets and (at least in my limited experience) the food / lodging price is as well.

We did a day at Park City last year and IIRC a single slice of pizza was $14 in the lodge.  No thanks.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

Grabbing Sunapee suddenly opens Vail to the Boston market in a big way. Day trip to Sunapee with a couple weekend trips to Okemo or maybe a big trip up to Stowe(most of the Boston market does not view Stowe as an option as it is just too far from anywhere south of the pike. Okemo is perfect for them and they will use it to smother Alterra at Stratton as much as possible and maybe beat them out in the long run. Not to bring it up, buttttttt there's an ultra rich playground about an hour south of Okemo.... Just saying. (In all honesty this deal does help show you the market value a place like Hermitage actually has).

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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

boston_e said:


> On the flip side their day ticket prices are 2x higher than most day tickets and (at least in my limited experience) the food / lodging price is as well.
> 
> We did a day at Park City last year and IIRC a single slice of pizza was $14 in the lodge.  No thanks.



Yes, day tickets are very expensive.  But they are that way to force you to buy the Epic.  The food and other services are indeed more expensive.  That is to help compensate for the cheaper passes.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is great news.
> 
> I'm all for MTN adding more debt to its' balance sheet by purchasing crappy hills, thus decreasing the likelihood they'll buy Smuggler's Notch.



:lol:  

Good one!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Yes the Epic Pass is low--for now! Not for long though. Once they have complete control it will be whatever they desire.
> 
> Monopolies are never a good thing. Just see Comcast.
> 
> Also, I like quality over quantity. I'm willing to pay a couple hundred more dollars for a pass if I don't have to put up with such aggressive rich wannabes from New York in Porsche Cayenne's and Chevy Suburbans thatplay loud music from their bluetooth speakers while skiing.



Yes, the question will be when they increase prices.  Their model has worked though--cheap/modest season pass prices and expensive lodging, lessons, food.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> *I'm willing to pay a couple hundred more dollars for a pass if I don't have to put up with such aggressive rich wannabes from New York in Porsche Cayenne's and Chevy Suburbans* thatplay loud music from their bluetooth speakers while skiing.



If you're going to have a such a deep animus & jealousy for the rich, you should at least know your target.  

Rich people do not drive Chevy Suburbans.



sull1102 said:


> *most of the Boston market does not view Stowe as an option* as it is just too far



I dont know about "most", perhaps that's true, but Boston is a big town and I can tell you there are tons of Bostonians who ski Stowe each weekend.  Loads of them.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Lmfao dude you ever go to okemo on the weekends or just weekdays? That place is as bad as Stratton for the snob factor, maybe even worse because at least Stratton has to bring in tons of employees that are relaxed locals. Vail buying okemo makes ALL the sense in the world for corporate and will be viewed as a major moment in the business someday when the whole thing falls apart.


Totally agree. 

Okemo is as Vail like without Vail actually owning it. It's more like "Why haven't Vail bought it yet?". The only argument was it's too small. But now that Vail is going down the size chart, Okemo is a perfect target.


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## slatham (Jun 4, 2018)

Consumer: Cheaper pass costs and increased ski areas to choose from on one pass is a positive. But do other costs increase (food, bev, lessons, etc)? What does this do to weekend/holiday crowds (key worry of my Stowe friends). Does monopoly power eventually result in increase costs?

And what about the non-pass holder? Does this consolidation effectively remove a large selection of areas from consideration because day ticket prices are so high? And I would expect less package deals and other incentives for the non-pass skier, especially if crowding does become an issue.

Operations: How does this change the operations and character of the mountain? Does it become homogenized? Does the ski season get truncated (Stowe closed April 15th at 100%). 

Personnel: Do the new owners remove the long time local employees with people from "corporate". I have not heard corroboration but heard rumors Vail fired several long time Stowe employees this spring. How does this change the operations and character of the mountain?

Local business: Assuming Vail doesn't start building lodging (Note that lodging at Stowe was NOT part of the purchase) I would think increased skier visits would help the local business.

Smaller areas. They could be the losers. Why ski an independent mountain, even if reasonably priced, if you can ski several areas effectively for free (or no incremental cost). Sure, many Epic/Ikon pass holders will surely not stick 100% to the pass areas, but its the trend away from independent areas and toward the "pass" areas that at the margin will hurt.

Personally I could see this fracturing my guys ski group, where a handful of guys are Stowe regulars and hence always want to head out West to a Vail resort. Not sure I am up to staying "Epic" when I don't have the pass. 

Time will tell. All I know is I'm staying with the iconic Magic mountain and their epic skiing........


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## skiur (Jun 4, 2018)

boston_e said:


> On the flip side their day ticket prices are 2x higher than most day tickets and (at least in my limited experience) the food / lodging price is as well.
> 
> We did a day at Park City last year and IIRC a single slice of pizza was $14 in the lodge.  No thanks.



Don't forget about parking.


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## FBGM (Jun 4, 2018)

$14 pizza is a must. They have to pay the high wages of the staff. 1 pizza pie sold must cover all staff for the day. The rest needs to go into Rob kitty Katz pocket.


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## Killingtime (Jun 4, 2018)

Vail stock price is up 6.5% today. Its been ripping the past few years. All those $14 slices of pizza and overpriced parking spots are adding up.


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you're going to have a such a deep animus & jealousy for the rich, you should at least know your target.
> 
> Rich people do not drive Chevy Suburbans.


I thought it was odd to put Suburbans and Porsches in the same category too (although Suburbans have become pretty crazy in terms of price, but still not something I'd equate with "rich" people driving...if "rich" people are driving them, those are the ones that don't want to show off driving a fancy foreign luxury car and prefer to just get something that fits their needs)



> I dont know about "most", perhaps that's true, but Boston is a big town and I can tell you there are tons of Bostonians who ski Stowe each weekend.  Loads of them.



Thought that was odd too...Stowe is under 4 hours from Boston itself. I would be thrilled with a 4 hour drive to a ski resort like Stowe.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I thought it was odd to put Suburbans and Porsches in the same category too (although Suburbans have become pretty crazy in terms of price, but still not something I'd equate with "rich" people driving...if "rich" people are driving them, those are the ones that don't want to show off driving a fancy foreign luxury car and prefer to just get something that fits their needs)
> 
> Thought that was odd too...Stowe is under 4 hours from Boston itself. I would be thrilled with a 4 hour drive to a ski resort like Stowe.


It's summer. It's called the "silly season" for a reason. 

Heat gets to people's head. Thinking becomes too difficult. Just shout what comes to the top of head. 

I don't take summer posts too seriously. (but then, I don't take any post seriously these days)


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

slatham said:


> Consumer: Cheaper pass costs and increased ski areas to choose from on one pass is a positive. But do other costs increase (food, bev, lessons, etc)? What does this do to weekend/holiday crowds (key worry of my Stowe friends). Does monopoly power eventually result in increase costs?



Other costs could increase, but a smart consumer can still work around those (eat off mountain, bring your own food, stay at non-mountain-owned lodging, etc). Eventually if the monopoly becomes big enough and competition weakens enough, it could result in further increased costs to the skiing itself though. Will be interesting to keep an eye on that part.



> And what about the non-pass holder? Does this consolidation effectively remove a large selection of areas from consideration because day ticket prices are so high? And I would expect less package deals and other incentives for the non-pass skier, especially if crowding does become an issue.


I think this is a valid concern. Although I think the industry in general has been making it more difficult/expensive for non-passholders to participate in the resort. Mega-mergers are one contributing factor, but I think this is an industry "concern" overall.



> Operations: How does this change the operations and character of the mountain? Does it become homogenized? Does the ski season get truncated (Stowe closed April 15th at 100%).


Good question...I think we need to see if the Stowe earlier than normal closing was an aberration or a trend. Always possible it was just a weird one off timing issue with the way the dates/weekends/calendar fell this year.



> Local business: Assuming Vail doesn't start building lodging (Note that lodging at Stowe was NOT part of the purchase) I would think increased skier visits would help the local business.


Agreed. Even if the resorts themselves offer lodging, if they price it higher that could still drive people to other local businesses instead.



> Smaller areas. They could be the losers. Why ski an independent mountain, even if reasonably priced, if you can ski several areas effectively for free (or no incremental cost). Sure, many Epic/Ikon pass holders will surely not stick 100% to the pass areas, but its the trend away from independent areas and toward the "pass" areas that at the margin will hurt.



I think there continues to be a demand for "independent" mountains like Magic, Smuggs, Sugarbush, etc. As long as they carve out a niche and offer a quality product and focus on why they're unique and different, I think they will be fine. Sugarbush reported their season pass sales this spring are up over sales last spring. So I think that shows independents still have a place. And based what I read on here about Magic, there certainly seems to be a big demand for the product they are offering as well.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

slatham said:


> Personally I could see this fracturing my guys ski group, where a handful of guys are Stowe regulars and hence always want to head out West to a Vail resort. Not sure I am up to staying "Epic" when I don't have the pass.


Yep, that's a real issue. Gone are the days when friends talk about where to go and why they like it. There's also some freshness with going to different mountains. Nice to do with a group for some social time together, even if the skiing is only ok.

With these passes, I miss skiing with some of my friends because we have different passes. I rotate my pass purchases. In the mean time, I will go to an independent mountain. But I really resist going to a Vail resort on years when I don't have their pass. Why pay high price to ski there when I'll be skiing it "for free" next year or two?


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## MG Skier (Jun 4, 2018)

slatham said:


> Consumer: Cheaper pass costs and increased ski areas to choose from on one pass is a positive. But do other costs increase (food, bev, lessons, etc)? What does this do to weekend/holiday crowds (key worry of my Stowe friends). Does monopoly power eventually result in increase costs?
> 
> And what about the non-pass holder? Does this consolidation effectively remove a large selection of areas from consideration because day ticket prices are so high? And I would expect less package deals and other incentives for the non-pass skier, especially if crowding does become an issue.
> 
> ...



+1 Magic!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

As to the ops question:  hell yes they will open later and close earlier.  It is about standardization and cutting costs.  Although none of those resorts, historically, were really late closers.


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## mbedle (Jun 4, 2018)

Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.


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## speden (Jun 4, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> ... They are also getting three resorts for the price of two.  Sunapee is a lease.  Okemo and Sunapee are established brands in the Boston market.  Now a Bostonian can have a pass that is good for Okemo, Sunapee, and Stowe.  That is a good option.



As a Bostonian I have to say Okemo and Sunapee are very unappealing options. Okemo is hard to get to from Boston and I'd rather go to Killington for better skiing at a similar driving time. Sunapee is close to Boston, but it's super crowded and located in the dreaded southern NH freeze/thaw zone. I'd rather go to Wawa or further north. I like Stowe, but it's a tough day trip from Boston. I think Vermont resorts are more attractive to NY skiers than Boston skiers.

If the market is going to consolidate to Vail and Alterra, I hope Alterra will go after the Boston market. They partnered with Killington, Sugarbush, and the Boyne resorts, which is a more Boston friendly selection than what Vail is doing. Alterra should try to connect with Wawa to solidify their Boston position.

I'm not too worried about monopolies in the ski business yet. The big passes are a good deal and it makes sense for the risk of bad snowfall to be spread across wide geographic areas. The big companies will also have a lot of clout to buy lifts and snow making equipment at lower prices. I'm more worried about consolidation in the tech industry with moves like Microsoft buying Github today. That kind of stuff is scary.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

> I'm more worried about consolidation in the tech industry with moves like *Microsoft buying Github* today. That kind of stuff is scary.


Man! You positively ruin my day. I was in such good mood until I read this line!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

speden said:


> As a Bostonian I have to say Okemo and Sunapee are very unappealing options. Okemo is hard to get to from Boston and I'd rather go to Killington for better skiing at a similar driving time. Sunapee is close to Boston, but it's super crowded and located in the dreaded southern NH freeze/thaw zone. I'd rather go to Wawa or further north. I like Stowe, but it's a tough day trip from Boston. I think Vermont resorts are more attractive to NY skiers than Boston skiers.
> 
> If the market is going to consolidate to Vail and Alterra, I hope Alterra will go after the Boston market. They partnered with Killington, Sugarbush, and the Boyne resorts, which is a more Boston friendly selection than what Vail is doing. Alterra should try to connect with Wawa to solidify their Boston position.
> 
> I'm not too worried about monopolies in the ski business yet. The big passes are a good deal and it makes sense for the risk of bad snowfall to be spread across wide geographic areas. The big companies will also have a lot of clout to buy lifts and snow making equipment at lower prices. I'm more worried about consolidation in the tech industry with moves like Microsoft buying Github today. That kind of stuff is scary.



Obviously those are not perfect resorts for everyone, but my point is that for the average Boston skier/rider those are good choices.


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## machski (Jun 4, 2018)

Interesting move here.  Could be good for Sunapee, I would imagine Vail will want to accelerate all the approved upgrades/expansion.  Being it is owned by state of NH, wonder if they approve or have any veto in the sale of the lease?
As to CB, that is an interesting add giving Vail some of the most serious terrain out there which they were not know for.  It also makes me wonder with the teens of thousands of acres they own in CO, will this prompt any anti-trust concerns?  They are growing to the size in that region that ASC once did in New England (when they bought SKI).  They were forced to divest some of their resorts at the time due to anti trust concerns.

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## slatham (Jun 4, 2018)

machski said:


> Interesting move here.  Could be good for Sunapee, I would imagine Vail will want to accelerate all the approved upgrades/expansion.  Being it is owned by state of NH, wonder if they approve or have any veto in the sale of the lease?
> As to CB, that is an interesting add giving Vail some of the most serious terrain out there which they were not know for.  It also makes me wonder with the teens of thousands of acres they own in CO, will this prompt any anti-trust concerns?  They are growing to the size in that region that ASC once did in New England (when they bought SKI).  They were forced to divest some of their resorts at the time due to anti trust concerns.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



When Vail bought Breck and Keystone (which came with A-Basin) they were forced on antitrust grounds to sell A-Basin. I presume they cleared the antitrust hurdle before closing this deal but that might not be the case. It also may not be an issue given how removed CB is from the other Vail resorts in CO.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

slatham said:


> When Vail bought Breck and Keystone (which came with A-Basin) they were forced on antitrust grounds to sell A-Basin. I presume they cleared the antitrust hurdle before closing this deal but that might not be the case. It also may not be an issue given how removed CB is from the other Vail resorts in CO.



The ultimate issue will be their share of the market....or the number of skier days they will control in Colorado.


----------



## slatham (Jun 4, 2018)

mbedle said:


> Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.



No, Sunday April 15th was last day. And they had cut back ops to just Forerunner Quad the week before. Tons of snow.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I think we need to see if the Stowe earlier than normal closing was an aberration or a trend. Always possible it was just a weird one off timing issue with the way the dates/weekends/calendar fell this year.



Trend.

Look at their entire portfolio, it's the norm, not an aberration.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Trend.
> 
> Look at their entire portfolio, it's the norm, not an aberration.



Exactly.  Cut costs.  PCMR now opens right before Thanksgiving and closes in mid-April.  They used to go another week or two in the spring for the locals.  Not anymore.


----------



## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you're going to have a such a deep animus & jealousy for the rich, you should at least know your target.
> 
> Rich people do not drive Chevy Suburbans.
> 
> ...


Oh totally agree there's a portion, but compare those numbers to a Loon/Cranmore, North Conway, even Sunday River and it isn't even close really. Get out to 495 and northwest the numbers start to change because you are talking about an hour ride time difference.

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## JimG. (Jun 4, 2018)

Liking my decision more and more to go with Killington/Pico and NYS 3 in 1 for next season. I think I need to buy my K pass soon 6/14 is the deadline for low early price I believe.

I am so totally uninterested in these East/West conglomerate ski passes. Cheap to buy and expensive to implement and use.


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## drjeff (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you're going to have a such a deep animus & jealousy for the rich, you should at least know your target.
> 
> Rich people do not drive Chevy Suburbans.
> 
> ...


I hate to break it to you BG, but PLENTY of "rich" people drive Suburban's and/or full sized Escalades. Here's why.... Rich people often have kids. And often 2,3, or 4+ kids. Kids take up space, and especially when it comes to sports, have stuff, which also takes up space.

Suburban's and Escalades have a ton of room behind the 3rd row of seats. Far more than a Cayenne has (my wife drives an Audi Q7 which is the same platform as the Cayenne is on, and I can 100% tell you that when the 3rd row of seats is in use, there's not much more room for more than 3 or 4 medium sized boot bags behind the 3rd row) Suburban's and Escalades are superior size wise for hauling a bunch of gear, or in non ski season say a good chunk of a kids soccer or lacrosse or softball team around one's home town.

Plus, if you haven't been in one recently, they're nicely appointed. And for a "rich" person often a 3rd or maybe 4th car

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Oh totally agree there's a portion, but compare those numbers to a Loon/Cranmore, North Conway, even Sunday River and it isn't even close really. Get out to 495 and northwest the numbers start to change because you are talking about an hour ride time difference.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


Well, you obviously are going to have a higher percentage of Mass plates in NH and especially ME.  Those locations are just more difficult to get to from CT, NY, NJ, PQ than Stowe.  That doesn't mean a huge number of people from Mass don't drive to Stowe every weekend.  I lived in Stowe for many years working in bars.  If you were to ask me where the highest percentage of visitors came from, it would be Mass.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

slatham said:


> No, Sunday April 15th was last day. And they had cut back ops to just Forerunner Quad the week before. Tons of snow.



I think you misread what he said. mbedle was referring to the plans for this coming season, not this past season.



BenedictGomez said:


> Trend.
> 
> Look at their entire portfolio, it's the norm, not an aberration.



And yet if what mbedle said is true, they're already planning on being open until April 21 next year which is right in line with their normal historical closing date. You can't say something is a trend at a particular resort if you have one year to base that on.



mbedle said:


> Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.



Note - I'm not defending Vail as I don't like the idea of mega-mergers, but I also like to use actual facts instead of rumors and theories based on other things Vail might have done elsewhere.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> Well, you obviously are going to have a higher percentage of Mass plates in NH and especially ME.  Those locations are just more difficult to get to from CT, NY, NJ, PQ than Stowe.  That doesn't mean a huge number of people from Mass don't drive to Stowe every weekend.  I lived in Stowe for many years working in bars.  If you were to ask me where the highest percentage of visitors came from, it would be Mass.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Mass and Boston are two very different things, otherwise you stated my very point perfectly. The drive to Stowe is much more difficult than many other options. Boston as a city has good options 90 minutes away and very very good options under 3 hours away. Stowe you are pushing over 4 hours, not many are doing that every weekend. Look at season passes, people that own condos and townhouses etc etc, there are FAR more CT and NY folks than MA overall and Eastern MA even more so.

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2018)

Have you ever lived in Stowe?  When people say Boston these days, they basically mean from 495 and in.  There are great deal of people from the Boston area with second homes in Stowe. That was my experience living and working there.  More than places like NY and CT.  Why? Look at your own argument.  Those folks have to drive by a ton of southern and central VT ski areas to get to Stowe.  

You can even look at this forum for a small sample size of that truth.  Most from NY, NJ, CT are regulars at mountains from SB south.  Most of the Stowe skiers? Metro Boston.  

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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I hate to break it to you BG, but PLENTY of "rich" people drive Suburban's and/or full sized Escalades.



Have you ever been in a Suburban?   I only wonder because it's odd to compare it to an Escalade, which yes, plenty of "rich" people drive.


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## moresnow (Jun 4, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Have you ever been in a Suburban?   I only wonder because it's odd to compare it to an Escalade, which yes, plenty of "rich" people drive.


A Yukon at the Denali trim level is pretty plush. A Suburban with the Premier trim would be a step down. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using AlpineZone mobile app


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## MommaBear (Jun 4, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I hate to break it to you BG, but PLENTY of "rich" people drive Suburban's and/or full sized Escalades. Here's why.... Rich people often have kids. And often 2,3, or 4+ kids. Kids take up space, and especially when it comes to sports, have stuff, which also takes up space.
> 
> Suburban's and Escalades have a ton of room behind the 3rd row of seats. Far more than a Cayenne has (my wife drives an Audi Q7 which is the same platform as the Cayenne is on, and I can 100% tell you that when the 3rd row of seats is in use, there's not much more room for more than 3 or 4 medium sized boot bags behind the 3rd row) Suburban's and Escalades are superior size wise for hauling a bunch of gear, or in non ski season say a good chunk of a kids soccer or lacrosse or softball team around one's home town.
> 
> ...




Exactly why we had a Suburban - 3 kids plus multiple friends, ski gear, baseball gear, lacrosse gear, camping gear.  Tons of space for kids and gear.  My husband will be happy to find out we are "rich"!   :beer:


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

To give you an idea, that Suburban is for rich people nowadays. It starts at $50,200...a new BMW X5 starts at $57,200... Land Rover Discovery $52,100... the numbers are no longer that far apart and yes those are the base base base model numbers that you will never ever see on the dealer lots, gotta have at least some options these days. A "middle class" suv nowadays would be more along the lines of the Explorer coming in at $32,140 and yes that is a very different vehicle capability wise and class wise the Explorer is a solid size down being a jumbo sized crossover.


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## WWF-VT (Jun 4, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Mass and Boston are two very different things, otherwise you stated my very point perfectly. The drive to Stowe is much more difficult than many other options. Boston as a city has good options 90 minutes away and very very good options under 3 hours away. Stowe you are pushing over 4 hours, not many are doing that every weekend. Look at season passes, people that own condos and townhouses etc etc, there are FAR more CT and NY folks than MA overall and Eastern MA even more so.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



FWIW I live just outside Boston and my trip to Sugarbush averages 3:15 and Stowe is about the same drive time for me.  80% of the non-resident owners at my condo complex are from MA.  Sugarbush and Stowe are an easy drive on 89 through NH and VT.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

And now Vail's goal is to stop you just 90 minutes into the drive at Sunapee or a little bit up 89 at Okemo. 

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2018)

Stowe is only 30 minutes further from Boston than Ludlow.  Sunapee would be a day trip alternative, not a substitute for Stowe.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> FWIW I live just outside Boston and my trip to Sugarbush averages 3:15 and Stowe is about the same drive time for me.  80% of the non-resident owners at my condo complex are from MA.  Sugarbush and Stowe are an easy drive on 89 through NH and VT.



Yea...I'm a bit confused why he argued that the drive to Stowe is "much more difficult" and "over 4 hours". Google maps also shows around what you're stating from Boston to Stowe along with the majority of the drive being on interstates.

I'd also agree that the majority of the condo owners in my complex at Sugarbush are from MA. I don't see why we'd have a huge number of MA people in SB but further north you'd have less from MA and more from NY. That makes little logical sense.

Sure people from Boston also have a lot of choices in NH and ME that are as far or even closer than Stowe, but that doesn't mean they're not going to Stowe.


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## sull1102 (Jun 4, 2018)

220 miles to Stowe vs 150 to Loon from the South Shore area is a big difference. Also if you arent factoring traffic on a Friday night and all the loveliness that comes with it you certainly should. I was never saying no one from Boston goes to Stowe, felt it was pretty clear I was saying more people go to NH and ME than go to Stowe, really not that crazy of an idea seeing as basically the entire industry east of the Connecticut River survives on the Boston market alone and always has.

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## gregnye (Jun 4, 2018)

One last thing before I stop ranting about Vail

I really hate the feel of most of Vail Resorts Websites. They are just so corporate and have no personality. In particular the one for Vail, Breckenridge and Keystone.

What I look for in a ski website is not just a list of the trails open, but a summary of the conditions produced by some sort of spokesperson or weatherman. While some resorts are overly enthusiastic (Killington) or straight up lie (Cannon) about conditions, it is better than having no write up at all.

I never could find a condition writeup on most of Vails websites, except for A-basin. I guess they just expect you to come anyway and they couldn't be bothered to hire someone to write something other than a number of how much snow they got. And no, I don't want to follow them on facebook to see the conditions.


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## jaytrem (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I never could find a condition writeup on most of Vails websites, except for A-basin.


 
A-basin isn't actually owned by Vail, probably explains that.


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## Harvey (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> No, they are taking areas that already do pretty well and buying them out, overrunning the local communities with increased crowds and people from out of state and the super-rich.



Vail can't actually increase the total number of super rich can they?


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2018)

Harvey said:


> Vail can't actually increase the total number of super rich can they?



Sure. They have warehouses full of super-rich people that they're stock-piling. Then when they buy another mountain they drop off loads of them at the Chevy dealers closest to the mountain to buy all the Suburbans and release them on their merry way.


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## Harvey (Jun 4, 2018)

^^LOL'd for real.



JimG. said:


> I am so totally uninterested in these East/West conglomerate ski passes. Cheap to buy and expensive to implement and use.



Agree. I saw a bunch skiers this year, who weren't chasing the best snow, because it wasn't on their pass.


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## abc (Jun 4, 2018)

Harvey said:


> Agree. I saw a bunch skiers this year, who weren't chasing the best snow, because it wasn't on their pass.


Define "best". Then define "best snow". 

People have different likes. And cost is one of them. Within a geographic region, there're multiple mountains having similar snow pattern. The one on "their pass" gets the same snow as the one that are not. Unless you've only got an Epic pass that is (for last year).


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## benski (Jun 4, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I really hate the feel of most of Vail Resorts Websites. They are just so corporate and have no personality. In particular the one for Vail, Breckenridge and Keystone.



okemoisepic.com


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## gmcunni (Jun 5, 2018)

benski said:


> okemoisepic.com



Well played


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## mbedle (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Sure. They have warehouses full of super-rich people that they're stock-piling. Then when they buy another mountain they drop off loads of them at the Chevy dealers closest to the mountain to buy all the Suburbans and release them on their merry way.



OMG - that was the best post yet.... lol


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## WWF-VT (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> And now Vail's goal is to stop you just 90 minutes into the drive at Sunapee or a little bit up 89 at Okemo.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



That's never going to happen for me....I only stop at Exit 9 in NH to get gas


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## fbrissette (Jun 5, 2018)

mbedle said:


> OMG - that was the best post yet.... lol


+1


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## FBGM (Jun 5, 2018)

Those praising the good deeds of Vail and are excited about Fail takeovers are the same morons who voted for Trump


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## crystalmountainskier (Jun 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> I really hate the feel of most of Vail Resorts Websites. They are just so corporate and have no personality. In particular the one for Vail, Breckenridge and Keystone.



There is really only one website for all the resorts.  Other than Stowe, which has yet to be switched over to the corporate site design.  I read they launched the new WB site with the default measurement units in feet and Fahrenheit and Canadians weren't too pleased.


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## benski (Jun 5, 2018)

fbgm said:


> those praising the good deeds of vail and are excited about fail takeovers are the same morons who voted for trump



amen!


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

FBGM said:


> Those praising the good deeds of Vail and are excited about Fail takeovers are the same morons who voted for Trump



Who are different from the same morons that ignore the "no political discussion" rule here.

This thread had been going well...


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

I fail to see how this is a bad thing for consumers.  Vail is simply giving another option, which nobody is forced to partake in.  They do not have anything close to a monopoly in the northeast.  Claims that they do are absurd.  We already have anti-trust laws in place.  Most people who criticize big corporations love government.  So why aren't you trusting your government to enforce the laws already on the books?  Could it be that it really isn't a monopoly?  Or do you just love government when they are taking money from big corporations and not yourself?

My one concern is that Vail's downward pressure on prices results in a couple of ski areas closing.  Burke, for example, could be hurt by this.  A $600 season pass that is good only at Burke all of the sudden seems like a rip-off.  And if I was going to purchase a condo, I would be very tempted to purchase a condo at a Vail ski area since my pass would include options out west.

For all of those who are criticizing Vail just because they are a big corporation, a couple of comments:
1) How do you think that they got so big?  They are providing a product that consumers are eager to pay for.  
2) Vail is far from the first big corporation to get into the ski business.  Why pick on just Vail?
3) Don't you WANT companies to spread their risk by owning ski areas in several markets?  Or do you actually prefer a company that could go bankrupt if we have a couple of back-to-back bad snow years in the northeast?


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## djd66 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I fail to see how this is a bad thing for consumers.  Vail is simply giving another option, which nobody is forced to partake in.  They do not have anything close to a monopoly in the northeast.  Claims that they do are absurd.  We already have anti-trust laws in place.  Most people who criticize big corporations love government.  So why aren't you trusting your government to enforce the laws already on the books?  Could it be that it really isn't a monopoly?  Or do you just love government when they are taking money from big corporations and not yourself?
> 
> My one concern is that Vail's downward pressure on prices results in a couple of ski areas closing.  Burke, for example, could be hurt by this.  A $600 season pass that is good only at Burke all of the sudden seems like a rip-off.  And if I was going to purchase a condo, I would be very tempted to purchase a condo at a Vail ski area since my pass would include options out west.
> 
> ...



+1  - Great Post.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

moresnow said:


> *A Yukon at the Denali trim level is pretty plush. A Suburban with the Premier trim would be a step down. *



Agree with this also.   

But that's what I'm saying, rich people aren't buying Suburbans for the same reason rich people arent buying Ford Mustangs.  Not that there's anything wrong with a Suburban or a Mustang, there isnt, but if you have the means, my point is your price level is considerably higher than those.




VTKilarney said:


> *do you just love government when they are taking money from big corporations and not yourself?*



It's more nuanced than that; they lack the financial education to understand that when government takes money from big corporations, government is actually taking money from "yourself", simply in a lagging fashion.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> One last thing before I stop ranting about Vail
> 
> I really hate the feel of most of Vail Resorts Websites. They are just so corporate and have no personality. In particular the one for Vail, Breckenridge and Keystone.
> 
> ...



We get it.  You don't like Vail.  It is America and you have other choices.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Sure. They have warehouses full of super-rich people that they're stock-piling. Then when they buy another mountain they drop off loads of them at the Chevy dealers closest to the mountain to buy all the Suburbans and release them on their merry way.



:lol:


----------



## slatham (Jun 5, 2018)

We've focused on the "consumer" as being a pass holder, which most us are. But most skiers are not pass holders (I would be interested to know the industry breakdown of skier visits between pass holders and ticket buyers). For ticket buyers, the question is how do day tickets prices change? For this segment of the consumer such corporate consolidation may not be beneficial. I am not sure how prices have changed at Stowe, but $124 walk up and $98 advanced online is steep.


----------



## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I fail to see how this is a bad thing for consumers.  Vail is simply giving another option... They do not have anything close to a monopoly in the northeast.  Claims that they do are absurd...
> 
> My one concern is that Vail's downward pressure on prices results in a couple of ski areas closing.  Burke, for example, could be hurt by this.  A $600 season pass that is good only at Burke all of the sudden seems like a rip-off.  And if I was going to purchase a condo, I would be very tempted to purchase a condo at a Vail ski area since my pass would include options out west.



Seriously? You don't see how this is bad for the consumer BUT you see a possibility of a couple ski areas closing because of this. Sorry that makes no sense at all and just comes off as a selfish "doesn't bother me" attitude. How is it good for the consumer for any business to close? Your profile says you live in the NEK, you think it is good for that region to lose another business? And just cause you like the idea of buying a Vail pass to go out west does not mean that is what everyone thinks. Personally, the West means SQUAT to mean, great I have tickets at mountains I am never going to because I would much rather save money and head back over to the Alps(it is cheaper to fly across the Atlantic than the Mississippi if you know where to look i.e. Norwegian. and then hop on Easyjet or RyanAir).

If Vail was saving Okemo and Sunapee from certain death or both mountains were in a downward trend I would be all for. That is not the case here or at Stowe.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Seriously? You don't see how this is bad for the consumer BUT you see a possibility of a couple ski areas closing because of this. Sorry that makes no sense at all and just comes off as a selfish "doesn't bother me" attitude.



Uh... you do realize that Burke is my home mountain, do you not?

It boils down to this.  I am thinking about the average consumer - not just me.  You should try thinking of others every now and then.  Simply put, Vail is making skiing (more than just a couple of days  a year) more affordable to more people - even if they don't go out west.  The people who do go out west are subsidizing your pass, and yet you seem to think that you are the victim here.

And the people who only ski a couple of days a year still have a LOT of choices other than Vail.  If Burke closes, I will be very sad.  But it's not as if Vail will be the only remaining option out there.

As for being cheaper to fly to the Alps, that may be true (although I doubt it) if you have no bags to bring with you.  I'm not a fan of going on a ski vacation without bringing a bag or two.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

slatham said:


> We've focused on the "consumer" as being a pass holder, which most us are. But most skiers are not pass holders (I would be interested to know the industry breakdown of skier visits between pass holders and ticket buyers). For ticket buyers, the question is how do day tickets prices change? For this segment of the consumer such corporate consolidation may not be beneficial. I am not sure how prices have changed at Stowe, but $124 walk up and $98 advanced online is steep.



The conversion of a consumer from a day ticket skier to a passholder is EXACTLY what Vail is trying to do.  They have pushed the pricepoint on the Epic Pass to the point where it only makes sense for a fair weather skier/rider to buy that pass.  Vail wants to get more $$$ and more commitment from this market.


----------



## gregnye (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> They do not have anything close to a monopoly in the northeast.  Claims that they do are absurd.



No one ever said anything about them currently having a monopoly on the East Coast. As of right now, 2018, they do not have a monopoly in the east. 

However, people who live out in Colorado are (and should be) more concerned. Because there they currently own a lot of mountains.

Right now in colorado they own or run: Vail, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Keystone, Arapahoe Basin, Crested Butte.

While thats certainly not all the ski areas in Colorado, those are definitely the big ones. It would be like Vail owning, Loon, Killington, Mount Snow, Stratton, Stowe and Okemo on the east coast.

These aren't Whaleback sized hills. Perhaps the best way to compare would be by terrain acreage and not number of resorts--then we could get a better deal of whether it really is a monopoly or not. 

And no, I don't "Trust my government to regulate the businesses" Right now the national government is failing in literally every way.


----------



## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Right now the national government is failing in literally every way.



Well at least we aren't resorting to hyperbole.  /sarcasm


----------



## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> No one ever said anything about them currently having a monopoly on the East Coast. As of right now, 2018, they do not have a monopoly in the east.
> 
> However, people who live out in Colorado are (and should be) more concerned. Because there they currently own a lot of mountains.
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure that we established that A-Basin is NOT owned or operated by Vail.  They DO have a relationship with the Epic Pass like some other areas.  That is all.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> No one ever said anything about them currently having a monopoly on the East Coast. As of right now, 2018, they do not have a monopoly in the east.
> 
> However, people who live out in Colorado are (and should be) more concerned. Because there they currently own a lot of mountains.
> 
> ...



Still a few big ones out there not owned by Vail. Copper, Aspen , Winter Park and Steamboat


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> *The conversion of a consumer from a day ticket skier to a passholder is EXACTLY what Vail is trying to do.  They have pushed the pricepoint on the Epic Pass to the point where it only makes sense for a fair weather skier/rider to buy that pass.*  Vail wants to get more $$$ and more commitment from this market.



Until their internal financial modeling suggests they have attained sufficient market share; _THEN_ the Epic Pass price increases are coming.  

Oh, the price increases will come......



gregnye said:


> And no, I don't "Trust my government to regulate the businesses" Right now *the national government is failing in literally every way.*



As it always does; such is the nature of government.

_Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil_ - Thomas Paine


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Still a few big ones out there not owned by Vail. Copper, Aspen , Winter Park



Also Loveland, which was my favorite of the 4 (Arapahoe Basin, Copper Mountain, Loveland, Vail) I visited last year.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Until their internal financial modeling suggests they have attained sufficient market share; _THEN_ the Epic Pass price increases are coming.
> 
> Oh, the price increases will come......
> 
> ...




Right.  When the market becomes saturated, they will have to think of something else.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

gregnye said:


> These aren't Whaleback sized hills. Perhaps the best way to compare would be by terrain acreage and not number of resorts--then we could get a better deal of whether it really is a monopoly or not.



Interesting idea. In Colorado, Vail owns about 1/3 of the skiable acreage. Not even close to a monopoly. The purchase of Crested Butte only increased their acreage ownership in Colorado from 31% to 33%.


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## Smellytele (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Also Loveland, which was my favorite of the 4 (Arapahoe Basin, Copper Mountain, Loveland, Vail) I visited last year.



Telluride and Purgatory as well.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Interesting idea. In Colorado, Vail owns about 1/3 of the skiable acreage. Not even close to a monopoly. The purchase of Crested Butte only increased their acreage ownership in Colorado from 31% to 33%.



Again, the issue is the amount of marketshare that Vail controls in Colorado (as in skier days).  Not acreage.


----------



## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Again, the issue is the amount of marketshare that Vail controls in Colorado (as in skier days).  Not acreage.



In terms of market-share, it looks like the Vail resorts (pre-Crested Butte) had about 40% of the state's ski visits (rough number based on using reported visits from Vail's resorts vs the combined total for the Colorado Ski Country USA member resorts which essentially account for most of the non-Vail ones). Still not a monopoly.


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## spiderpig (Jun 5, 2018)

benski said:


> okemoisepic.com





So if I bought an Okemo pass early "before the price went up" how do I go about getting my money back for the difference between that price and the Epic pass?


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

Not all Colorado acreage is equal; I think it's pretty clear a company like Vail would rather own a "Denver accessible ski area", which I'd define as: Arapahoe Basin, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Copper Mountain, Keystone, Loveland, Vail, and Winter Park).   They've got 1/2 of those locked-up.


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

spiderpig said:


> So if I bought an Okemo pass early "before the price went up" how do I go about getting my money back for the difference between that price and the Epic pass?



Ask Okemo's Season Pass Office? Although I suspect the answer right now would be that they can't do anything until the deal officially closes.


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## ss20 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Well at least we aren't resorting to hyperbole.  /sarcasm



:lol::lol::lol:


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Not all Colorado acreage is equal; I think it's pretty clear a company like Vail would rather own a "Denver accessible ski area", which I'd define as: Arapahoe Basin, Beaver Creek, Breckenridge, Copper Mountain, Keystone, Loveland, Vail, and Winter Park).   They've got 1/2 of those locked-up.



True...but they can't lock up any more of them without getting into anti-trust territory again. After they bought Keystone, Breck, and A-Basin, the DOJ forced them to sell A-Basin. So I wouldn't expect them to be able to buy Copper, Winter Park, Loveland or A-Basin even if they wanted to.


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## spiderpig (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Ask Okemo's Season Pass Office? Although I suspect the answer right now would be that they can't do anything until the deal officially closes.



I suspect since they're a publicly traded company that Vail is not in the business of giving away money.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

spiderpig said:


> I suspect since they're a publicly traded company that Vail is not in the business of giving away money.



Shocking concept, I know.


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## abc (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> As for being cheaper to fly to the Alps, that may be true (although I doubt it) if you have no bags to bring with you.  I'm not a fan of going on a ski vacation without bringing a bag or two.


So you haven't flown to Europe!

"A bag" is typically FREE! Now if you can't your skis in "a bag", then perhaps that's indeed hopeless for you. 

(I have no idea whether it's "cheaper" to fly to Europe, not knowing what to compare it to)


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

abc said:


> So you haven't flown to Europe!
> 
> *"A bag" is typically FREE! Now if you can't your skis in "a bag", then perhaps that's indeed hopeless for you. *



I've been to Europe numerous times.  As a matter of fact, I was just pricing a ticket to Montenegro today.  As an Italian citizen, I can assure you that I know a thing or two about flying to Europe.

You said: 



abc said:


> _t is cheaper to fly across the Atlantic than the Mississippi *if you know where to look i.e. Norwegian. and then hop on Easyjet or RyanAir*_


_

Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are only bringing one checked bag.  The cheapest ticket from Boston to London (seven night stay) for all of February is $486 on WOW Air.  (Departing February 26th.)  This includes one checked bag and no carry-on bag other than a briefcase or purse.  With skis, the price goes to $612.  That just gets you to London, mind you - but your plan has you transfer to Easyjet or Ryanair.  If we use Easyjet for our example, you will pay another $137 USD for a flight to Zurich.  If you have skis, your Easyjet ticket goes to $235.

So... using the absolute cheapest date for the entire month of February, the cheapest you can get to the Alps using your system - if you bring one checked bag, but no carry-on and no skis - is $623.  If you want to avoid renting skis, the price goes to $847.

If you can't get to the Rockies for less than that, you are an absolute moron.  Just the fact that you expected me to believe that a bag is free on a LCC across the Atlantic makes you a moron.  Even Delta and other legacy carriers are now charging for a checked bag across the Atlantic.  Compare that to Southwest offering up to two free bags here in the United States. 

And let's not forget the downside to connecting to Ryanair or Easyjet.  If your flight into London is delayed, they aren't going to care since your trip is not booked on a single ticket.  And the layovers are almost always longer when you cobble together two separate tickets. 

Before you spout off, you really ought to know what you are talking about._


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## djd66 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I've been to Europe numerous times.  As a matter of fact, I was just pricing a ticket to Montenegro today.  As an Italian citizen, I can assure you that I know a thing or two about flying to Europe.
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...



Skiing in Europe is cheaper than skiing in Colorado = Fake News.  FYI - United Direct to Denver is $350


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Skiing in Europe is cheaper than skiing in Colorado = Fake News.  FYI - United Direct to Denver is $350



That being said, most people probably overestimate the cost of skiing in Europe.  

Of course the Epic pass helps keep the cost of skiing out west down quite a bit, which is something that abc completely overlooked.


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## farlep99 (Jun 5, 2018)

djd66 said:


> Skiingin Europe is cheaper than skiing in Colorado = Fake News. FYI - United Directto Denver is $350



Not quite fake news because skiing in Europe depends on alot of things.  Where in Europe?  There are lots of places there.  Switzerland= expensive.  France, ditto.  Dolomites- can be, but there are some good cheap options.  Austria- lots of cheap options (this is where I’m most familiar with).  Also exchange rate- a year or two ago the dollar and euro were basically even money. That was a great deal for dollar holders.  That absolutely made the cost of skiing (i.e.lift tickets) much cheaper than most U.S. options and generally speaking far more terrain for the money.

A lot has changed in just the last few years.  Used to be you could fly Lufthansa, Austrian,or Swiss airlines & skis went for free. I believe they’ve all stopped that now. And fares were generally in the $500-600 range rt (from NYC this isn’t ancient history, I’m talking 2012-2016 time frame.  But past few years it seems fares are closer to $800ish & then you have to find a way to pay for skis if you’re going to bring them.  Otherwise rent, which is pricey for multiple days.  So yeah, Colorado is probably cheaper now, and it is especially so if you have Epic or Ikon.  But a few years-ago you probably could’ve gotten a Euro trip cheaper, or at least very close to the cost of CO.  And in a couple years it could change again.  Or not.


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## JimG. (Jun 5, 2018)

So, how long before European resorts start buying up US ski resorts to offer multi ski area passes to compete with IKON, Epic, etc.?


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## thetrailboss (Jun 5, 2018)

JimG. said:


> So, how long before European resorts start buying up US ski resorts to offer multi ski area passes to compete with IKON, Epic, etc.?



Unlikely.


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## mister moose (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I fail to see how this is a bad thing for consumers.



1) Eastern price increase down the road
2) $18 hamburgers and $20 parking.
3) Unbundled marked up everything.
4) Big day ticket rates scare off new entrants and last minute skiers

The cheap pass is the hook, not the entire product.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

mister moose said:


> 1) Eastern price increase down the road
> 2) $18 hamburgers and $20 parking.
> 3) Unbundled marked up everything.
> 4) Big day ticket rates scare off new entrants and last minute skiers
> ...



I hear what you are saying, but this ignores that skiers have a choice.  They don't have to go to a Vail resort.  You can, for example, ski Burke and get food and lift tickets at half the price or less.  But... this allows countless skiers who buy the Epic Pass to save a LOT of money, both on their local hill and on trips out west.  

I understand that you may not like the model, but having another option out there that saves certain people lots of money is indeed consumer friendly.  

This may change, but setting speculation aside, this is a good thing for consumers at this moment in time.


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

mister moose said:


> 1) Eastern price increase down the road
> 2) $18 hamburgers and $20 parking.
> 3) Unbundled marked up everything.
> 4) Big day ticket rates scare off new entrants and last minute skiers
> ...



I ski at a resort that is not part of any corporate ski conglomerate. At least in the short term, Epic coming east has greatly benefited me from a cost perspective. My mountain dropped their pass prices due to needing to somewhat compete with Epic. If Epic never bought Stowe, I'd be paying significantly more for my pass at a non-Vail resort in VT. Let's cross the "eastern price increase down the road" bridge when we get to it. People so often say Vail will start to significantly increase Epic prices. IF they do that, they'll lose market-share. Then they lose ancillary revenue as well. I don't really see significant pass price increases as part of the Vail/Epic's business model.

As for the high priced food, either go somewhere else or bring your own food. I think prices on food are high at plenty of non-Vail resorts and that's why I don't often eat at the on-mountain venues.

The paid parking thing hasn't even happened and who knows if it even ever will in the east. IF it did, again, you have a choice to go elsewhere.

The big day ticket rates I agree are an issue, but they've been an industry wide issue that myself (and others) have been concerned about long before Vail came east. The entire industry is trying to shift people to pass products instead of day tickets. I do worry about that scaring off new entrants (although at the same time people have been saying that's a concern for years and yet it doesn't seem like we have any major lack of new people on mountains so perhaps new entrants are still finding ways to start to ski).


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> True...but *they can't lock up any more of them without getting into anti-trust territory again. After they bought Keystone, Breck, and A-Basin, the DOJ forced them to sell A-Basin.* *So I wouldn't expect them to be able to buy Copper, Winter Park, Loveland or A-Basin even if they wanted to.*



That was during the Clinton Administration; I'd give it a shot now were I Vail and I thought XYZ property was a strategic fit.  I doubt it would be blocked as Republican administrations generally have a much higher bar for proving Monopoly status than Democrat administrations.



cdskier said:


> People so often say Vail will start to significantly increase Epic prices. IF they do that, they'll lose market-share. Then they lose ancillary revenue as well. *I don't really see significant pass price increases as part of the Vail/Epic's business model.*



Price increases for Epic pass will occur, I assure you with 100% certainty. 

 I even know when it will happen, it will occur precisely once Epic pass reaches market saturation / stasis.   I say this with confidence because while I dont love everything Vail, I do realize they're being run by very intelligent people with savvy business acumen.  As for loss of ancillary revenue, you'll never make more in ancillary revenue than you will from the holistic pass price increase, even accounting for your dropouts who refuse the slightly higher price.


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## sull1102 (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I've been to Europe numerous times.  As a matter of fact, I was just pricing a ticket to Montenegro today.  As an Italian citizen, I can assure you that I know a thing or two about flying to Europe.
> 
> You said:
> 
> ...



You are wrong once again and now I'm not alone! You chose Wow Air on purpose to fit your narrative, good for you. Now go try again with Norwegian, like I told you to do in the first place. Oh and why London? Cause it fit the narrative again. You can fly from Providence to Dublin then get on Ryanair to Zurich, you could go Boston to Copenhagen then Innsbruck, or Munich, the list goes on. And the longest layover I had in Feb/March was 3hours, which is maybe an hour longer than you really should want. Try again bud 

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> You are wrong once again and now I'm not alone! You chose Wow Air on purpose to fit your narrative, good for you. Now go try again with Norwegian, like I told you to do in the first place. Oh and why London? Cause it fit the narrative again. You can fly from Providence to Dublin then get on Ryanair to Zurich, you could go Boston to Copenhagen then Innsbruck, or Munich, the list goes on. And the longest layover I had in Feb/March was 3hours, which is maybe an hour longer than you really should want. Try again bud



Sure, "bud," since you don't feel the need to actually get data I will.

First, let start with the fact that you were completely and utterly wrong that checked bags on LCCs are free.  

But let's play the game using your new routes, "bud."

Let's start with your proposal of Norwegian from Providence to Ireland.  We will ignore the fact that everyone is waiting for Norwegian to go belly up and assume that you are comfortable with that risk.  The cheapest flight is $283.10 Add $140 for a checked bag.  Add even more for a second checked bag.  So let's give you the benefit of the doubt and saw that you are traveling with just a carry-on and one checked bag with skis.  You are up to $423 - but you are stuck in Dublin.  With the onward flight you are easily over $550.

The cheapest fares from Boston to Copenhagen in February are $115 more than the fare from Providence to Ireland.  So no luck there.

So, "bud," do you want to keep playing this game?

You are either the WORST shopper for airfare out west, or you need to stop doubling down on your fake news, which to remind the readers was:


sull1102 said:


> because I would much rather save money and head back over to the Alps(it is cheaper to fly across the Atlantic than the Mississippi if you know where to look i.e. Norwegian. and then hop on Easyjet or RyanAir).


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

One more data point.  I am seeing all sorts of airfares in February from Boston to Denver in the $350 to $370 range.  Assuming that you don't fly Southwest, even with the additional checked bag fee this is still cheaper than flying to the Alps.  

Fares to Salt Lake City vary more, but the lowest fares are even cheaper than to Denver.

One thing I will give you (although you said that FLYING to the Alps is cheaper) is that it is easier to get away without a car in Europe.  Although you were talking about flying into Munich and Zurich.  I would still want a car if I flew into one of those cities (more so for Munich).  If you fly into a city such as Innsbruck and don't rent a car, the airfares go up so there is no real savings.

And let's not forget the substantially greater travel time that you are if you go to the Alps.  In many circumstances that will eat into the time on the slopes.


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## Zermatt (Jun 5, 2018)

For the fourth year in a row we decided to go back to the most expensive country in the world because skiing there is so cheap.

For President's week in February:
Nonstop flight from NYC to Zurich, $445 (includes one checked bag per person)
9 Nights in a Zermatt apartment for four people(200 yards from the lift), 3,000 CHF
5 Full days kids' ski school including lunch, 550 CHF per kid
5 day ski pass, 360 CHF per adult (kids are free)
Roundtrip train from the airport to Zermatt for the entire family, 154 CHF per adult (kids are free)


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

Enjoy!  What do you do on the non-ski days?

I’m jealous of the airfares you can get out of New York.  The cheapest nonstop I am seeing out of Boston is quite a bit more.


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## Zermatt (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Enjoy!  What do you do on the non-ski days?
> 
> I’m jealous of the airfares you can get out of New York.



I bought the Ikon cheap pass for the family and was committed to going out west....but the airfares kept dropping and the CHF came back to par with the USD and I just had to pull the trigger.

Not sure about non-ski days yet, we have never been in Zermatt for 9 nights, usually just 7 with a night by the airport.  We will end up skiing more than the 5 days for sure, but also will have more time to relax and enjoy the town without packing in ski days everyday.


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## abc (Jun 5, 2018)

> Nonstop flight from NYC to Zurich, $445 (includes one checked bag per person)


Boy, that's a 30% increase from 10 years ago! 

Just kidding. I used to go to Europe every other year. Basically alternating between Europe and the Rockies. But since the introduction of these multi-mountain passes, I haven't been to Europe for over 5 years! 

(Personally, I do have the same suspicion as many others that these super-economical passes will pass in a few years. That's why I'm taking full advantage of them while putting a pause to Europe)

People got sucked into the false economy of WOW flights, to places they don't want to go, with the false promise of cheap regional flights to their true destinations. They totally missed out on the direct flights for a couple dollar extra and no layover. When I used to ski Europe, I get off at Zurich at 6am (typical landing time for transatlantic flights), and be at the mountain before 11. On the slope by noon!


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## mister moose (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I ski at a resort that is not part of any corporate ski conglomerate. At least in the short term, Epic coming east has greatly benefited me from a cost perspective. My mountain dropped their pass prices due to needing to somewhat compete with Epic.


Where is your mountain going to make up that money lost from lower pass prices?



cdskier said:


> I don't really see significant pass price increases as part of the Vail/Epic's business model.


The Eastern drive-to market is different than the Western destination market.  This will affect Eastern pricing in the very near future.
​


cdskier said:


> As for the high priced food, either go somewhere else or bring your own food.


Sure that's for you, but not most people, which is what we're discussing here.  Look at Vail's financials, a lot of cheap pass buyers are spending $$ in food.  It's a hook, a "Get you in the door".



cdskier said:


> The paid parking thing hasn't even happened and who knows if it even ever will in the east. IF it did, again, you have a choice to go elsewhere.


You mean the elsewhere that lowered their pass prices to compete and has to make it up from... maybe charging for parking?

I'm not saying I have this figured out, but you seem to believe other areas will not be impacted and go on their merry way.  I'm not sure that's the case in like-kind competitors. Traditional market niches are getting turned upside down, and it's hard to see where all the marbles will go when it settles out.  Areas that are not like-kind will possibly do ok going on their merry way.

Consider Sugarbush - close to Stowe, not enough skier visits pre Vail impact, and is not positioned very well to weather the cheap pass storm.  How will they restructure to a survivable price point?  Going to be interesting.


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Where is your mountain going to make up that money lost from lower pass prices?



Lower pass prices have resulted in higher sales. I can't see their financials, but they say they are happy with their results



> The Eastern drive-to market is different than the Western destination market.  This will affect Eastern pricing in the very near future.



We'll see. I'm not convinced there will be this huge increase that some people are predicting. 



> Sure that's for you, but not most people, which is what we're discussing here.  Look at Vail's financials, a lot of cheap pass buyers are spending $$ in food.  It's a hook, a "Get you in the door".



I don't understand why this isn't an option for "most people". Is it that difficult to make your own sandwich or something and bring it with you? Hell I see people practically bringing full multi-course meals to the mountains in their bags nowadays. If you want to save money on food, you can. It is a choice available to anyone that wants to take advantage of it.



> You mean the elsewhere that lowered their pass prices to compete and has to make it up from... maybe charging for parking?


Oh, so now suddenly everyone else is going to start charging for parking? Interesting conclusions we're jumping to...



> I'm not saying I have this figured out, but you seem to believe other areas will not be impacted and go on their merry way.  I'm not sure that's the case in like-kind competitors. Traditional market niches are getting turned upside down, and it's hard to see where all the marbles will go when it settles out.  Areas that are not like-kind will possibly do ok going on their merry way.
> 
> Consider Sugarbush - close to Stowe, not enough skier visits pre Vail impact, and is not positioned very well to weather the cheap pass storm.  How will they restructure to a survivable price point?  Going to be interesting.



Not enough skier visits pre Vail? You certainly wouldn't know that from the number of people on the mountain. Where do you get your data from? Win seems to think they're positioned very well as a privately owned, independent resort. As for price point, they are priced quite attractively at the moment. I'll take Win's word over yours about how well they're doing financially and how well they're positioned. One of the benefits of being privately owned is that you don't need to make money for your shareholders. You can make the money you believe you need to succeed and invest profits directly back in the mountain instead of into an investor's pocket.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 5, 2018)

Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?


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## cdskier (Jun 5, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?



There's a lot of theoretical doomsday scenarios being thrown out by people here, but little actual data to back any of it up. I always thought Stowe was pricier to begin with from what I remember even before Vail bought them, but I also think pretty much all the major resorts are pricey when it comes to food so I'm not really a good judge on this question. I'd love to see some real actual pre-Vail vs post-Vail prices on food.


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## Zand (Jun 5, 2018)

cdskier said:


> There's a lot of theoretical doomsday scenarios being thrown out by people here, but little actual data to back any of it up. I always thought Stowe was pricier to begin with from what I remember even before Vail bought them, but I also think pretty much all the major resorts are pricey when it comes to food so I'm not really a good judge on this question. I'd love to see some real actual pre-Vail vs post-Vail prices on food.



It's not just Vail in the west either. Winter Park and Copper both charged me $23 for 2 slices of pizza and a water for lunch. Never seen anything that crazy in the east, Stowe included. But some (Killington, Mt Snow, probably Stowe now) are close.

BTW...I'd like to try some of those drugs people are taking to make them see cheaper flights to Europe than the Rockies. My round trip airfare from Boston to Denver the week before President's day nonstop via JetBlue was $260. If you're somehow flying to Europe cheaper than that then you're on a plane that's worse quality than a Southwest plane and I hope you don't end up somewhere near the Titanic on the way over. For the record, the only thing expensive about the Rockies that you'll save money on in Europe is a car rental. The hotels were almost half what they are in the east, nevermind Switzerland..


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I don't understand why this isn't an option for "most people". Is it that difficult to make your own sandwich or something and bring it with you? Hell I see people practically bringing full multi-course meals to the mountains in their bags nowadays. If you want to save money on food, you can. It is a choice available to anyone that wants to take advantage of it.



I have seen some places out west (Not a Vail property) in their brown bag areas allow people to plug in crock pots which I found very interesting.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Oh, so now suddenly everyone else is going to start charging for parking? Interesting conclusions we're jumping to...



I believe Stowe will in some lots. Waterville does have a lot with pay for parking.


----------



## spiderpig (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Shocking concept, I know.



Shocking, it says they will give refunds. Now, let's see if the Epic Pass price goes up before the sale closes. https://www.epicpass.com/info/new-epic-resorts-faqs.aspx


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## WinS (Jun 6, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Where is your mountain going to make up that money lost from lower pass prices?
> 
> The Eastern drive-to market is different than the Western destination market.  This will affect Eastern pricing in the very near future.
> ​
> ...



Resorts like us will remain sustainable by focusing on the segment of skiers and riders who will appreciate what we offer. No one can be all things to all people. I have never feared good competition and Vail is a smart operator with a good track record. It is the irrational that worries you. However, they are going to approach things differently than we will. Our belief is that both will appeal to enough skiers and riders for us both to be successful. Independently owned and operated resorts can make quick decisions and be creative and remain in close contact with their communities and guests. If we are sustainable, we can also continue to make the improvements to be competitive as we did last year with new two new lifts, Axess gates, snowmaking upgrades and two new groomers. We do not need to drive a lot more volume to be sustainable but this year we did see a small increase in skier visits so that was encouraging and pass sales have been encouraging. We do want to remain independent but also realize that partnering with the Mountain Collective and The Ikon Pass increases our competitive offerings.  While admittedly biased, in an industry which will continue to consolidate well run independents will continue to thrive. The bigger threat to all of us is the changing climate. 

A comment about ticket prices.  While window tickets have soared so too have pre-season tickets and the online options which are offered at significant discounts to the window ticket. Fewer and fewer people buy at the window any more.


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## farlep99 (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?



Didn't notice any price difference in Stowe's food prices this past season compared to the prior.  If there was an increase at all it was minimal & would be normal without the ownership change.  Stowe has historically been pricier with food but never found it to be that much more than Killington, Sugarbush, etc.


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## boston_e (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> Is food at Vail’s eastern resorts really that much more than at Killington, Loon or Mt. Snow?



I haven't been to Stowe in quite a few  years, but a single slice of pizza at Park City this past winter was $14.


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## boston_e (Jun 6, 2018)

Zand said:


> It's not just Vail in the west either. Winter Park and Copper both charged me $23 for 2 slices of pizza and a water for lunch. Never seen anything that crazy in the east, Stowe included. But some (Killington, Mt Snow, probably Stowe now) are close.



I don't remember exactly but somewhere around $6 for a slice sticks in my mind from Killington/Pico this past winter.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 6, 2018)

boston_e said:


> I don't remember exactly but somewhere around $6 for a slice sticks in my mind from Killington/Pico this past winter.




Mount Snow is typically $6-$8 per slice depending on the toppings you may or may not want, beverages are in the $3 to $5 range typically depending on size and serving style (bottle vs can vs fountain beverage)

The slice of cheese and a bottle of powerade zero my son typically gets for lunch is if I recall correctly an $11 debit off of his prepaid meal card we get him


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## mister moose (Jun 6, 2018)

boston_e said:


> I don't remember exactly but somewhere around $6 for a slice sticks in my mind from Killington/Pico this past winter.


That's what I remember, 6 for cheese, 7 for pepperoni, 3 for soda/water.  So for 2 slices and a drink, that's $17 at Killington ($14.45 with 15% passholder's discount) vs $34 at a Vail resort.  The Vail resort costs $20 a day more for just lunch, so for a 6 day trip that's $120 more.  If you now ski Okemo and Stowe a fair bit (and eat lunch), where does the "savings" go?

Yeah, sure, you can ski with a backpack that has deli sandwiches, beer, sterno stove, cutlery, and baggies of fried rice or steak tips, but I don't think the average skier does that.  And I get it, I do pack a lunch sometimes, but I get tired of the hassle, or I forget, or there's nothing in the fridge.  I sometimes do it not for the savings, but to eat healthier than pizza, burgers or chili.

Killington - Unrestricted $939
Epic Local pass - $669   ((NOT unrestricted at Stowe, has blackout dates)

Savings on Epic local pass - $270

Number of days buying lunch when Epic goes more expensive - 14.  
And buy anything else; hand warmers, a beer or two, dessert, etc, and you will be well under a 14 day break even point.

The appeal here is if you're going to do at least one week out West.  It's a great hook for the Eastern skiers that fly west.  Eastern resorts do not have that hook, or the short number of  5-7 day destination resort trips by each out of the time zone skiers.   That's why the Epic pricing structure and blackout days in the East will get worse, not better. 

Consolidation and brand loyalty pricing may be here to stay, but not everyone takes an annual vacation out West, so there will remain pricing and other resorts/hills for those folks too.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 6, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I believe Stowe will in some lots. Waterville does have a lot with pay for parking.



Not really paid parking, more valet parking. $20 and they will park your car and bring it back at the end of the day.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

billo said:


> For the fourth year in a row we decided to go back to the most expensive country in the world because skiing there is so cheap.
> 
> For President's week in February:
> Nonstop flight from NYC to Zurich, $445 (includes one checked bag per person)
> ...



Zermatt's lift tickets were surprisingly reasonable in price.  IIRC when we went it was 75 CHF per adult per day, which worked out to about $75-80 per person.

Can't say enough good things about Zermatt...for both my 2002 and 2017 visits.  My wife initially did not want to go, but once we did, she loved it.  She still raves about it to her friends...and we visited Zurich, St. Moritz, Rigi, and Basel in the same trip.  We will be back.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

9 out of 10 times I bring lunch. If skiing without the whole family (5 of us) I will get lunch on the mountain more often. 

Also people saying the Epic will be more expensive some day. Yes it will but I only think year to year when buying a pass. Nothing is holding me to buying the same pass the next year. If they offered a loyalty discount I may put that in the + column in the spreadsheet to help me decide...


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## mister moose (Jun 6, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> Zermatt's lift tickets were surprisingly reasonable in price.  IIRC when we went it was 75 CHF per adult per day, which worked out to about $75-80 per person.



Amazing how the high walk up rates almost no one pays are shaping the thinking.  $75-80 is now "quite reasonable"?

Ski club rates - $60.
Advance rates - $69
Quad pack rates - $58


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## cdskier (Jun 6, 2018)

mister moose said:


> That's what I remember, 6 for cheese, 7 for pepperoni, 3 for soda/water.  So for 2 slices and a drink, that's $17 at Killington ($14.45 with 15% passholder's discount) vs $34 at a Vail resort.  The Vail resort costs $20 a day more for just lunch, so for a 6 day trip that's $120 more.  If you now ski Okemo and Stowe a fair bit (and eat lunch), where does the "savings" go?



Where are you getting your numbers from that the EASTERN Vail resorts cost $20 more a day for lunch than K? 

Someone already made a comment that price changes for food pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe have been minimal if at all so far from what they've seen and were not that substantially different from K to begin with. So if you were paying those prices before, the Vail argument on food is irrelevant to the discussion (if they do change them significantly in the future, worry about it then). In theory if you really want to look at cost comparisons pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe, you need to factor in the significant change in season pass prices as well. Stowe passholders are paying significantly less now than they were before for the passes.



> Number of days buying lunch when Epic goes more expensive - 14.
> And buy anything else; hand warmers, a beer or two, dessert, etc, and you will be well under a 14 day break even point.



If you buy those same additional things at K that also adds to your cost there. If I'm shopping for cars between 2 different brands and decide to add a feature to the model from one brand (a nav system for example) but not the other, I shouldn't be using that as a basis for comparing the costs between the 2 cars. That isn't a like for like comparison.


----------



## mister moose (Jun 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> Where are you getting your numbers from that the EASTERN Vail resorts cost $20 more a day for lunch than K?
> 
> Someone already made a comment that price changes for food pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe have been minimal if at all so far from what they've seen and were not that substantially different from K to begin with. So if you were paying those prices before, the Vail argument on food is irrelevant to the discussion (if they do change them significantly in the future, worry about it then). In theory if you really want to look at cost comparisons pre-Vail vs post-Vail at Stowe, you need to factor in the significant change in season pass prices as well. Stowe passholders are paying significantly less now than they were before for the passes.​


​So you think Vail won't be raising food prices at Stowe?  I'm expecting they will.  This is like thinking the tiger won't eat you because he isn't hungry now.   Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in my comparison.

​


cdskier said:


> If you buy those same additional things at K that also adds to your cost there. If I'm shopping for cars between 2 different brands and decide to add a feature to the model from one brand (a nav system for example) but not the other, I shouldn't be using that as a basis for comparing the costs between the 2 cars. That isn't a like for like comparison.


It's the price _difference_ I'm referring to.  The Vail mark-up.  Sure, Stowe's prices haven't gone up much.  Yet.  You seem to be fixated on only the present.  The future lasts a lot longer.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Amazing how the high walk up rates almost no one pays are shaping the thinking.  $75-80 is now "quite reasonable"?
> 
> Ski club rates - $60.
> Advance rates - $69
> Quad pack rates - $58



Reasonable for Switzerland.


----------



## MadPadraic (Jun 6, 2018)

gregnye said:


> Just what I feared. Skiing is basically an monopoly now. Vail resorts really is the worst thing to happen to this sport.
> 
> Colorado locals must be pissed. The list of vail owned resorts there must be longer than  non-vail resorts now
> 
> ...






gregnye said:


> We know that Vail will never fail. If they do they'll just plead innocent to the government for money, kinda like the phone carriers. And I suspect the $500 passes will soon be gone. Once they control enough of the market you'll be forced to pay whatever Robert Katz and the Vail Executives want .



I don't get all the hate towards Vail. Their pass prices are much lower than competitors. They consistently improve infrastructure and expand terrain. Also, read their annual reports: they make money off of skiing operations rather than claiming that condo sales are the only profitable component.



benski said:


> This is screwed up. They are accumulating too much market power and are going to screw skiers. Especially anyone who which will hurt all the newcomers to the sport the most, but also independent ski areas like Magic who need to sell tickets to people who also ski at these mountains.



Over the years, I've had passes with at least Booth Creek, Boyne, Cannon, Gunstock, WaWa,  Max,  and Vail (Epic local).  I do worry about the independent ski areas, but as a consumer, my experience with Vail resorts has been pretty good.  My main complaint is that Park City got rid of it's excellent Women Riders camp the year after Vail bought them.

I do hope that a third network pops up which includes Cannon and, say, Snowbasin, Crystal, and Schweitzer.



mbedle said:


> Don't think it will affect the planned opening and closing dates at these resorts. They have some way of picking them, but this year they are planning Stowe opening day on November 16th and closing day on April 21st.



On really good snow years they have re-opened Breck for additional weeks/weekends after scheduled closing.


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## speden (Jun 6, 2018)

mister moose said:


> So you think Vail won't be raising food prices at Stowe?  I'm expecting they will.  This is like thinking the tiger won't eat you because he isn't hungry now.   Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in my comparison.



I think food prices are more dependent on how "upscale" a resort is rather than who owns it. I'd expect food prices to be higher at places like Stowe, Bretton Woods, etc. than at Mt. Sunapee. If Vail puts in a lot of improvements to move a resort more upscale, then food prices would naturally follow.


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## cdskier (Jun 6, 2018)

mister moose said:


> So you think Vail won't be raising food prices at Stowe?  I'm expecting they will.  This is like thinking the tiger won't eat you because he isn't hungry now.   Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in my comparison.
> 
> It's the price _difference_ I'm referring to.  The Vail mark-up.  Sure, Stowe's prices haven't gone up much.  Yet.  You seem to be fixated on only the present.  The future lasts a lot longer.



I'm fixated on reality and facts. I simply prefer not to assume something will happen with no facts to back that up. The eastern and western markets are very different. Unless you're in Vail management, you also have no idea what they plan to do (or not do). I see no value in wasting time worrying about something that may never happen (and something that you ultimately have no control over anyway).



> I’ve had a lot of worries in my life, most of which never happened.
> – Mark Twain


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

farlep99 said:


> *Didn't notice any price difference in Stowe's food prices this past season compared to the prior.  If there was an increase at all it was minimal *& would be normal without the ownership change.  Stowe has historically been pricier with food but never found it to be that much more than Killington, Sugarbush, etc.



I think there was an increase in the food prices post Vail, but as you said it wasnt that large.  Also, the food at Stowe is completely fantastic, so there's quality to be had for that high price.



WinS said:


> *The bigger threat to all of us is the changing climate. *



Somehow I dont think a slow 1.8 degree increase in temperature (even if it does happen) over the next 80 years is a bigger current "threat" to your business than market consolidation and pricing pressure, but it has been a while since I've run a proper SWOT analysis.



boston_e said:


> *a single slice of pizza at Park City this past winter was $14.*



Correction.  A single slice of pizza-like product! [/NJNYpizzasnobbery]



mister moose said:


> *Amazing how the high walk up rates almost no one pays are shaping the thinking.  $75-80 is now "quite reasonable"?*



Cosigned!   If I pay more than $45 for a lift ticket, I'm annoyed with myself.  Then again, I do consider myself unusual in that I take SOTC to be a bloodsport.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 6, 2018)

slatham said:


> We've focused on the "consumer" as being a pass holder, which most us are. But most skiers are not pass holders (I would be interested to know the industry breakdown of skier visits between pass holders and ticket buyers). For ticket buyers, the question is how do day tickets prices change? For this segment of the consumer such corporate consolidation may not be beneficial. I am not sure how prices have changed at Stowe, but $124 walk up and $98 advanced online is steep.



I dug into their annual report and estimate that 2/3rds of their visits are from pass holders (I assumed a walk up price of $110). I don't have many ski friends that aren't pass holders somewhere. Day tickets are too expensive everywhere (not just Vail).


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> I'm fixated on reality and facts. I simply prefer not to assume something will happen with no facts to back that up. *The eastern and western markets* *are very different. *Unless you're in Vail management, you also have no idea what they plan to do (or not do).]



I'm in Mister Moose's camp on this.  Prices will increase.  Also, I have no idea what you mean with your east/west market comment.

Here's a Census infographic by median household income by US county.  The greatest concentration of wealth in America is in the east, so why you think Vail couldn't raise prices to western levels puzzles me.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 6, 2018)

What the heck is going on in northeastern Nevada?


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## drjeff (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> What the heck is going on in northeastern Nevada?



There's what like 4 people that live there, and 1 of them own's a mineral mine is my guess! ;-)


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## jaytrem (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> What the heck is going on in northeastern Nevada?



Ahhh, so that's why a day ticket at Elko Snow Bowl is $250.


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## cdskier (Jun 6, 2018)

I don't understand the relevance of median household income. Who said anything about starting to price ski products based on what people in the surrounding area make? The east/west market comment is not about how much people in those areas make. The logistics are different. The competition is different. That's what the comment is about.


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## skiur (Jun 6, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> I believe Stowe will in some lots. Waterville does have a lot with pay for parking.



Bay 1 at K (and bay 2 on the holidays) is pay to park on the weekends.  I believe there is some weekend pay to park in the front of the snowshed lot too.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I'm in Mister Moose's camp on this.  Prices will increase.  Also, I have no idea what you mean with your east/west market comment.
> 
> Here's a Census infographic by median household income by US county.  The greatest concentration of wealth in America is in the east, so why you think Vail couldn't raise prices to western levels puzzles me.



I'm confused: Western prices are slightly lower.  For example, Snowbasin is 769 right now, which is lower than Jay or Cannon. Sugarbush hasn't announced a rate yet, but it has historically been much higher. Mt Baker is 790. I'm sure we can find counter examples, but consider the price of an Epic Local (which doesn't have blackouts at the Summit County mountains) vs a Boyne Silver (many more blackouts) or Boyne Gold which does.

Also, with regards to geography. I can't find the link, but I believe Vail considers New York, Chicago and Texas to be their biggest markets for sales.


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## cdskier (Jun 6, 2018)

MadPadraic said:


> I'm confused: Western prices are slightly lower.  For example, Snowbasin is 769 right now, which is lower than Jay or Cannon. Sugarbush hasn't announced a rate yet, but it has historically been much higher. Mt Baker is 790. I'm sure we can find counter examples, but consider the price of an Epic Local (which doesn't have blackouts at the Summit County mountains) vs a Boyne Silver (many more blackouts) or Boyne Gold which does.
> 
> Also, with regards to geography. I can't find the link, but I believe Vail considers New York, Chicago and Texas to be their biggest markets for sales.



He was referring to food prices being higher out west, not pass prices.

Also fwiw since you mentioned Sugarbush, their pass if you purchased by the early deadline (May 9) was $799 for an adult.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> He was referring to food prices being higher out west, not pass prices.
> 
> Also fwiw since you mentioned Sugarbush, their pass if you purchased by the early deadline (May 9) was $799 for an adult.



And my Cannon pass was 549 for next year (yes NH resident early pricing)


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## LItoCOtoMA (Jun 6, 2018)

Curious how Alterra reacts to this...

Altera now needs a compete in the 1) the Boston Day trip market 2) VT $$ condo resort market 

-Just having 5 days at loon is a check in the L column for Alterra when compared to unlimited at Sunapee
-Just having 5 day access at either Stratton, Killington, or Sugarbush is another check in the L column for Alterra when compared to unlimited access at Okemo and Stowe

These are the type of skiiers the multi-pass mountains are after. Low volume weekend day trippers and seasonal condo owners who can be swayed to their product and have $$$ (and likely to venture out west)

What could happen
1) Unlimited days at Stratton. Highly likely IMHO. It is comparable to Okemo in a lot of ways and owned by Alterra
2) Greater access at Sugarbush, Killington, or Loon. They could do this by upping the days from say 5 to 15, opening up Pico, or even making it so that if you have a season pass at either Killington, Sugarbush, or NE you could get a steep discount on the IKON base. Probably won't happen, but who knows.
3) Make a Deal with WAWA. WAWA was on the MAX pass so they have been open to joining a pass deal in the past. Would compete well with Sunapee

I am also interested to see what happens to Jay. I haven't heard anything about it's sale. After such a large investment in the East by Vail would the addition of Jay bring a marginal benefit to out way the cost of another purchase in the east? Is that even relevant? They may just continue the arms race between them and Alterra and see every mountain as more potential passholders.

Regardless, I am excited to see how this plays out. This is great for consumers like me who are not tied to any one resort and make weekend trips from a major metro area. The addition of Okemo and Sunapee gives me more options to ski with more friends. It also puts pressure on Ikon to become more competetive So needless to say, im pretty psyched


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## VTKilarney (Jun 6, 2018)

LItoCOtoMA said:


> I am also interested to see what happens to Jay. I haven't heard anything about it's sale.



I've always seen Jay as a play to capture the Montreal market.  It's just too far from Boston or New York to make the price worth it if you are trying to tap into that market.


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

Did Vail buy Okemo- Sunapee- Crested Butte and Stevens Pass or did they buy the rights to run them? I know Sunapee was only leased from the State of NH. What do they own? Buildings, lifts and infrastructure? If the lease was up what would become of the infrastructure?


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## Smellytele (Jun 6, 2018)

I managed to get an Epic Pass and Ikon Pass for a total of $578... 

How?


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## MadPadraic (Jun 6, 2018)

cdskier said:


> He was referring to food prices being higher out west, not pass prices.
> 
> Also fwiw since you mentioned Sugarbush, their pass if you purchased by the early deadline (May 9) was $799 for an adult.





Smellytele said:


> And my Cannon pass was 549 for next year (yes NH resident early pricing)



My pass for Cannon was 729, but prices have since risen.  549 is good, but, to cherry pick, Keystone and A-Basin (Cannon West!) is 349 even after the early deadline has passed.

As for food prices--I'm not sure I really agree on this.  Perhaps I'm price insensitive on this front.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> I've always seen *Jay as a play to capture the Montreal market. * It's just too far from Boston or New York to make the price worth it if you are trying to tap into that market.



Yeah, I dont see Vail buying Jay, unless they believe it would align with capturing more of the Canadian market. 

 Perhaps it's not entirely crazy given they own Whistler / Blackcomb, it would get them access to one more major metro market and they could pull some Quebecois to BC, but the exchange rate isn't beneficial to pull Canadians to Colorado.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Yeah, I dont see Vail buying Jay, unless they believe it would align with capturing more of the Canadian market.
> 
> Perhaps it's not entirely crazy given they own Whistler / Blackcomb, it would get them access to one more major metro market and they could pull some Quebecois to BC, but the exchange rate isn't beneficial to pull Canadians to Colorado.



Let's face it: Vail bought their next eastern resort chain and that was Triple Peaks.  The deal was a good one to make.  Triple Peaks is a stable, profitable going venture.  The ownership was near retirement.  It matches their goals.  And did I say that they were profitable?  Vail is not going to take on risky operations.  

As much as I hate to say it, Jay/Burke are probably seen as risky ventures.  Especially compared to Triple Peaks.  The Canadian Dollar is weak and Montreal is Jay's ONLY big market.  Burke has a good niche with the biker/ski racing crowd, but it is a very small market with not as much money.  

Might as well quash the wild speculation that Vail will buy Saddleback.  It is the same reason.  

Vail can only afford to buy winners.  I would love to be proven wrong by Vail buying one or more of these named ski areas.


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## drjeff (Jun 6, 2018)

I wonder if/whether Vail or Alterra will make a move on Peak soon given the buying sprees they've been on in the recent past??

You get the some solid New York and Boston as well as Philly day trip market resorts, as well as a bunch of mid west properties and overall the infrastructure is in decent shape........


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I wonder if/whether Vail or Alterra will make a move on Peak soon given the buying sprees they've been on in the recent past??
> 
> You get the some solid New York and Boston as well as Philly day trip market resorts, as well as a bunch of mid west properties and overall the infrastructure is in decent shape........



That, in my mind, would be the next logical move.  Peaks has been struggling.  Vail buys and then dumps some of the less-profitable entities.


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## GregoryIsaacs (Jun 6, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I wonder if/whether Vail or Alterra will make a move on Peak soon given the buying sprees they've been on in the recent past??
> 
> You get the some solid New York and Boston as well as Philly day trip market resorts, as well as a bunch of mid west properties and overall the infrastructure is in decent shape........



I can easily see Vail licking their chops over the prospect of owning Mount Snow and Hunter. I hear they have like 8 pizza ovens between them!


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> I can easily see Vail licking their chops over the prospect of owning Mount Snow and Hunter. I hear they have like 8 pizza ovens between them!



:lol:


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## drjeff (Jun 6, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> I can easily see Vail licking their chops over the prospect of owning Mount Snow and Hunter. I hear they have like 8 pizza ovens between them!


And I actually do have a friend of mine at Mount Snow owns both a Porsche Cayenne AND a Suburban to get both ends of that spectrum!! ;-)

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

IMO, SKIS has too much debt to make for an attractive acquisition.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> IMO, SKIS has too much debt to make for an attractive acquisition.



They may have to sell one or two areas to save the rest of the company.  I imagine that what they want to sell is not what folks would want to buy.


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## benski (Jun 6, 2018)

I bet vail moves to buy Wyndham next and maybe something even closer to New York to have options convenient. I here Wyndham’s owners are hedge fund managers who are looking to sell the place soon, and the high end clientele is right up Vail ally.


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## benski (Jun 6, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> IMO, SKIS has too much debt to make for an attractive acquisition.



I also don’t see Vail wanting Hunter. Too much of a bar. Being in any way liable for Hunter’s crowds would give Vail an aneurism.


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## sull1102 (Jun 6, 2018)

drjeff said:


> I wonder if/whether Vail or Alterra will make a move on Peak soon given the buying sprees they've been on in the recent past??
> 
> You get the some solid New York and Boston as well as Philly day trip market resorts, as well as a bunch of mid west properties and overall the infrastructure is in decent shape........



As a Peak Passholder this worries me a little bit, but I miss the old 20-something pass to Snow and Stratton from 15/16 for $399 and maybe this would bring it back. Overall I think Alterra is more likely to buy if they really want to compete blow for blow with Vail. Might even see a little creativity if Peak leadership wanted to stay in the industry, but get back to basics with just a few smaller midwest hills to work with, i.e. when they were small enough to view reopening Crotched as a great opportunity which obviously it was. 

If Alterra of Vail is really interested I think Attitash might be extremely an sexy piece of the puzzle unlocking the Mount Washington Valley and all that potential. Plus these companies like to swoop in and drop a large amount of cash on improvements quickly. There may be no mountain in the region more desperate for such a massive infusion of cash and see a solid return on investment.


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## gregnye (Jun 6, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> If Alterra of Vail is really interested I think Attitash might be extremely an sexy piece of the puzzle unlocking the Mount Washington Valley and all that potential. Plus these companies like to swoop in and drop a large amount of cash on improvements quickly. There may be no mountain in the region more desperate for such a massive infusion of cash and see a solid return on investment.



I'm not sure Attitash would be sold without Wildcat. But Wildcat isn't really that desirable to a large company, since no development can happen at the base. If Vail or Alterra bought out Peaks I would feel that Wildcat would be left without an owner, which would be sad.


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## abc (Jun 6, 2018)

Who wants to claim credit for predicting the Vail purchase of Okemo and Sunapee the earliest?

Find the post of the first mention of Vail buying Okemo and Sunapee. We'll take their next prediction of which mountain Vail will buy a lot more seriously.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 6, 2018)

benski said:


> I bet vail moves to buy Wyndham next and maybe something even closer to New York



I have no idea if Wyndham is on the block, but Wyndham would be an exceptional fit for the Vail portfolio, and would also make a lot of sense geographically for Epic pass expansion.


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## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have no idea if Wyndham is on the block, but Wyndham would be an exceptional fit for the Vail portfolio, and would also make a lot of sense geographically for Epic pass expansion.



Couldn't agree more on this one.


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## Zermatt (Jun 7, 2018)

Not sure if this has already been covered in the previous 200+ posts, but what happens with all the people that paid $1,200+ for an Okemo pass already for 18/19 season?

Are they to be made whole in that people will be able to jump in for $900 to ski Okemo and get the rest of the Epic Pass mountains?


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

billo said:


> Not sure if this has already been covered in the previous 200+ posts, but what happens with all the people that paid $1,200+ for an Okemo pass already for 18/19 season?
> 
> Are they to be made whole in that people will be able to jump in for $900 to ski Okemo and get the rest of the Epic Pass mountains?



EDIT Got it wrong !!!! _Not looking good - this is from Vail's website: Vail Resorts will continue to honor previously sold 2018-19 season pass products for Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, and Stevens Pass._ 

The epic pass website states:I have purchased both an Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, or Stevens Pass season pass AND an Epic pass product.  Can I get a refund?
Refunds of your Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, or Stevens Pass season pass purchases will be accepted following closure of the acquisitions.  More information on process for receiving refunds on Okemo, Mount Sunapee, Crested Butte, or Stevens Pass products to be announced after closure of the acquisitions.


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## MadPadraic (Jun 7, 2018)

LItoCOtoMA said:


> Curious how Alterra reacts to this...
> 
> Altera now needs a compete in the 1) the Boston Day trip market 2) VT $$ condo resort market
> 
> ...



We spent a huge amount of time trying to decide between Epic and Ikon this year, but ultimately decided on Cannon with plans to do a trip somewhere like St Anton or Pow Mou instead of a major Epic/Ikon destination. I'm not sure how Mt Sunapee unlimited would have changed this calculus:  Sunapee and Okemo are notably inferior to Cannon, but $100 savings plus Stowe and Western mountains might be enough. 

I'm really hoping, but not holding my breath, that Cannon will be added to one of these passes similar to Telluride and A-Basin.

On a related note, we should all write to the Powder Alliance and ask them to add Eastern areas to their network.


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## triguy914 (Jun 7, 2018)

so I've read through 19 pages of people whining about SUVs, high pizza prices and speculation on what Vail will buy next. 

I find it interesting that no one has really focused on the business side of this. Rob Katz, plain and simple was a very young & successful Private Equity guy at Apollo. He retired in his 30s, was a passionate skier and moved his family to Vail. Apollo bought Vail and Leon Black called him up asking him to run the place. The guy is a skier. All good. He has done a classic leveraged buildup of a business during a boom time. He runs an efficient ship and they do reinvest heavily in their mountains. Look at skiing Vail itself today vs 20 years ago, EVERY lift is high speed and some have started to be replaced with six packs. He's also done a great job in re-positioning Vail as a global ski destination (listen to all of the accents & Languages you hear on the lifts) that the US economy doesn't affect the prized possessions as much as the other areas in the portfolio. 

Here's the issue, EVERY buildup of a portfolio of ski areas has ended badly in the next recession. There were never any that were the size of Vail today, but the old American Ski co, and others. I remember being on vacation at Killington with a friend who was a lender to K and commented on how there was zero $ in the current budget for CapX improvements during the dot com blow up. 

I was looking hard for real estate in Stowe for the last 2+ years and all I saw was a lot of unrealistic owners thinking their properties were magically going to increase in value. There is a very strong economy that is supporting housing prices, but the new tax laws and the loss of deductibility on all of one's state income, property taxes has taken a bite out of the market. Think it's wrong? houses over $1million in my Northern Westchester town, are falling. 

I ended up with a house on a lake outside of Ludlow allowing me to access the skyship 20 mins away and drive up to Brandon Gap easier. Do I think my house is now worth more money being 3 miles from Jackson Gore? Not so much. 

What I am most interested in is where is Vail spending the $35million in improvements across the three mountains? I saw no mention of a specific improvement value when they bought Stowe, and with the exception of a lower season pass and Epic signs at the ticket windows, I saw no real sign of Vail's ownership at Stowe this past year. What portion of that $35 million will be spent at each mountain? on what? That's my interest. on the plus side I spend a few days to a few weeks in the west at friend's houses in vail, PC & BC, now being able to buy one pass for all of my skiing plus getting a local multi day pass for Snowmass & Highlands has just reduced my outlay significantly and has increased my plans to spend more time out west.


----------



## spiderpig (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> I have no idea if Wyndham is on the block, but Wyndham would be an exceptional fit for the Vail portfolio, and would also make a lot of sense geographically for Epic pass expansion.



Vail's gonna buy a hotel chain?


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

spiderpig said:


> Vail's gonna buy a hotel chain?



Good catch... lol


----------



## cdskier (Jun 7, 2018)

billo said:


> Not sure if this has already been covered in the previous 200+ posts, but what happens with all the people that paid $1,200+ for an Okemo pass already for 18/19 season?
> 
> Are they to be made whole in that people will be able to jump in for $900 to ski Okemo and get the rest of the Epic Pass mountains?



Once the deal closes you will have the option to "upgrade" to an Epic pass at the then current price. If the price is less than you paid for the Okemo pass, you'll be refunded the difference.


----------



## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

triguy914 said:


> What I am most interested in is where is Vail spending the $35million in improvements across the three mountains? I saw no mention of a specific improvement value when they bought Stowe, and with the exception of a lower season pass and Epic signs at the ticket windows, I saw no real sign of Vail's ownership at Stowe this past year. What portion of that $35 million will be spent at each mountain? on what? That's my interest. on the plus side I spend a few days to a few weeks in the west at friend's houses in vail, PC & BC, now being able to buy one pass for all of my skiing plus getting a local multi day pass for Snowmass & Highlands has just reduced my outlay significantly and has increased my plans to spend more time out west.



My guess is at the resorts with already approved expansions.  That would be Stevens Pass (big plans on either side of their current limits) and Sunapee.  CB will be up for some but Triple Peaks has had issues getting expansions thru and we're just starting the process of a new one permitting wise.  Okemo, don't really expect much except for a lift upgrade or two.

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## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

LItoCOtoMA said:


> Curious how Alterra reacts to this...
> 
> Altera now needs a compete in the 1) the Boston Day trip market 2) VT $$ condo resort market
> 
> ...


Ok, something's are wrong with your post.  First, Stratton is not a limited resort on Ikon, it is a full resort.  Subject to blackout dates on the base but unlimited on Ikon.  Not sure how Okemo and Sunapee will be on local vs full Epic regarding blackouts Epic site is down currently).  As to the day limits at Loon on Ikon, its 5 on base and 7 on Full Ikon.  Not sure what they would buy to compete with Sunapee that is in good financial shape for Boston day market.  None of the remaining areas leap out at me.

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## Jully (Jun 7, 2018)

machski said:


> Ok, something's are wrong with your post.  First, Stratton is not a limited resort on Ikon, it is a full resort.  Subject to blackout dates on the base but unlimited on Ikon.  Not sure how Okemo and Sunapee will be on local vs full Epic regarding blackouts Epic site is down currently).  As to the day limits at Loon on Ikon, its 5 on base and 7 on Full Ikon.  Not sure what they would buy to compete with Sunapee that is in good financial shape for Boston day market.  None of the remaining areas leap out at me.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



He was referring to a limit of 5 days on the base pass. I don't see them raising this, personally, at least this year. Ikon is already past their first price increase. I don't see much changing for this season unless they purchased a new resort and like you said, nothing jumps out (back east) except Jay.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

triguy914 said:


> What I am most interested in is where is Vail spending the $35million in improvements across the three mountains? I saw no mention of a specific improvement value when they bought Stowe, and with the exception of a lower season pass and Epic signs at the ticket windows, I saw no real sign of Vail's ownership at Stowe this past year. What portion of that $35 million will be spent at each mountain? on what? That's my interest. on the plus side I spend a few days to a few weeks in the west at friend's houses in vail, PC & BC, now being able to buy one pass for all of my skiing plus getting a local multi day pass for Snowmass & Highlands has just reduced my outlay significantly and has increased my plans to spend more time out west.



It appears that the only capital going into Stowe is for integration purposes. Will be very interesting to see what they plan on spending 35 million on at the 3 new resorts. I assume that Sunappe will see the new lifts that they already planned to upgrade. Not an Okemo skier, but I would assume that some type of high speed lift from the base area to get you to the upper mountain lifts. For Crested Butte, they have short term plans to install a couple of lifts and expand eastward into the Two Drainage area.


----------



## spiderpig (Jun 7, 2018)

mbedle said:


> It appears that the only capital going into Stowe is for integration purposes. Will be very interesting to see what they plan on spending 35 million on at the 3 new resorts. I assume that Sunappe will see the new lifts that they already planned to upgrade. Not an Okemo skier, but I would assume that some type of high speed lift from the base area to get you to the upper mountain lifts. For Crested Butte, they have short term plans to install a couple of lifts and expand eastward into the Two Drainage area.



Maybe Okemo will get that long-rumored gondola from the Jackson Gore base. Or, a smarter move, and more recent rumor, upgrade Green to a HSQ and drop it down to Mountain Road so you can access it from the top of Jackson Gore.


----------



## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

Jully said:


> He was referring to a limit of 5 days on the base pass. I don't see them raising this, personally, at least this year. Ikon is already past their first price increase. I don't see much changing for this season unless they purchased a new resort and like you said, nothing jumps out (back east) except Jay.


Well, not a valid comparison by him.  Epic unlimited only occurs with a full Epic pass (otherwise blackout days appear).  It's 7 on the full Ikon which should be used as the comparitor.  No I don't see that increasing this year, but perhaps they will give each of the Boyne properties in the East their own days next year to address Vail's purchases.

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## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> One more data point.  I am seeing all sorts of airfares in February from Boston to Denver in the $350 to $370 range.  Assuming that you don't fly Southwest, even with the additional checked bag fee this is still cheaper than flying to the Alps.
> 
> Fares to Salt Lake City vary more, but the lowest fares are even cheaper than to Denver.
> 
> ...


This whole fly to Euro for cheap is going poof anyway now that jetfuel is back around $90/barrel.  Airlines are rolling out fuel surcharges again for Atlantic flights and I doubt fuel costs are going down anytime soon.  Domestically, fares will rise but you won't see fuel surcharges without a bigger leap in fuel prices.

The other popular theme in this Euro conversation is to book on low cost transatlantic carriers and maybe change to a Euro low cost to get to destination.  While you maybe able to score great ticket prices, that is HUGE risk.  If your trans atlatic flight is delayed and you miss the connection to your Euro low cost flight, oh well.  You are out of luck and will have to rebook and pay on your own (and maybe stay overnight at a city on your own you had not planned too).  Better to book a single ticket (even if it is a code share) to preclude this, unless you're the gambling type.

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## Edd (Jun 7, 2018)

machski said:


> perhaps they will give each of the Boyne properties in the East their own days next year to address Vail's purchases.



That’s why I didn’t pull the Ikon trigger this year. 5 days at each would have sold me.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2018)

machski said:


> Not sure what they would buy to compete with Sunapee that is in good financial shape for Boston day market.  None of the remaining areas leap out at me.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Waterville?


----------



## slatham (Jun 7, 2018)

Vail reported earnings up 41% for the fiscal 3rdQ.

Of real interest, season pass sales +12% in units and +19% in sales dollars through May 29th vs. last year. 

Stock surges and is up 28% YTD. 

Market cap $10.9 bil.

Peak Resorts Market cap $71mm

For perspective, Vail's NET INCOME for 3rd Q was $256mm

The rich get richer......


----------



## DoublePlanker (Jun 7, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Waterville?



Ragged too?

Waterville could use some capital expenditures to do the planned expansions including gondola.  That could help gain back market share from Loon and Bretton Woods.


----------



## sull1102 (Jun 7, 2018)

Jesus, those numbers show just how insanely huge Vail is to someone who views Peak as a pretty large group of resorts... How was ASC forced to dump C'more and WV back in 94 and Vail is allowed to grow and grow and grow like this. I'm not saying ASC would have been better off keeping those two around, but ya never know.

One question I have now though, how much is Mount Snow worth to Peak? Because the Hermitage has $25-million in the hole and the idea seems to be that it will sell for less than that by a lot. If Snow were to go up on the market someday it must be worth almost half of Peak Resorts as a whole. That is very interesting for a company that does not have the greatest overall health although it is greatly improved from a year ago.


----------



## abc (Jun 7, 2018)

VTKilarney said:


> And let's not forget the substantially greater travel time that you are if you go to the Alps.  In many circumstances that will eat into the time on the slopes.


The travel time is only "substantially greater" if you bought into the false promise of flying to London first. 

Flights from NYC to Zurich is around 6 hrs. Flights from NYC to SLC is around 5 hrs, 6 to Reno. How substantial is that? 

The beauty of transatlantic flight is one leg of it happens in the middle of the night. So the travel time is not lost. (granted, if you can't sleep on the plane, that's going to be rough)



> One thing I will give you (although you said that FLYING to the Alps is cheaper) is that it is easier to get away without a car in Europe. Although you were talking about flying into Munich and Zurich. I would still want a car if I flew into one of those cities (more so for Munich). If you fly into a city such as Innsbruck and don't rent a car, the airfares go up so there is no real savings.


Why would you need a car from Zurich? 

It's not which city you fly into that matters. It's which resort to ski in. If you're going to the French Alps, you may want a car. But if you're going to Austria or Switzerland, you can easily get to just about every mountain/villages by train (or a postal bus straight from the train station). 

The skiing in Europe is quite different from skiing in the west. Some people prefer one type over the other. But as far as cost, it could go either way.


----------



## sull1102 (Jun 7, 2018)

DoublePlanker said:


> Ragged too?
> 
> Waterville could use some capital expenditures to do the planned expansions including gondola.  That could help gain back market share from Loon and Bretton Woods.



Ragged also has that third peak expansion that was cut years and ago and has gone completely silent since.


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

slatham said:


> Vail reported earnings up 41% for the fiscal 3rdQ.
> 
> Of real interest, season pass sales +12% in units and +19% in sales dollars through May 29th vs. last year.
> 
> ...



My retirement accounts appreciate Vail's growth!!!


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Jesus, those numbers show just how insanely huge Vail is to someone who views Peak as a pretty large group of resorts... How was ASC forced to dump C'more and WV back in 94 and Vail is allowed to grow and grow and grow like this. I'm not saying ASC would have been better off keeping those two around, but ya never know.



I guess because they owned 10 resorts all located in VT, NH and ME.


----------



## MadPadraic (Jun 7, 2018)

abc said:


> The travel time is only "substantially greater" if you bought into the false promise of flying to London first.
> 
> Flights from NYC to Zurich is around 6 hrs. Flights from NYC to SLC is around 5 hrs, 6 to Reno. How substantial is that?
> 
> ...



I love snowboarding Europe, but the travel times really aren't close at all. 

First off flying to Zurich is actually 7:15 not 6 hours. Second, traveling to Europe requires dealing with customs, which can frequently run for a whole hour when returning to the USA (even with global entry).  Third, international flights have earlier check-in times.

Now, if you want to go carless, the USA even has a slight advantage: shuttles from SLC or DEN are plentiful, cheap, and meet your inbound flight.  Trains in Europe are more romantic and scenic, but the transfers are longer and not nearly as well timed. 

Also, booking a ticket to somewhere like Steamboat or Aspen is easy: the connections are very well timed.  Try doing that in Europe on a budget: you'll find yourself on a flag carrier to a major hub and then on Sleazyjet, or jet2, or whatnot for the hop.

The extra travel time is entirely worth it for a certain type of vacation, but it is definitely not the same as flying to DEN on a 6:30 am flight and being at A-Basin by lunch.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

mbedle said:


> *I guess because they owned 10 resorts all located in VT, NH and ME.*



If you're going to be in the publicly traded ski company business, geographical diversification is both wise & prudent.  

It wouldn't shock me if one of Vail's next purchases is European; what does shock me is that they haven't already done so.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

MadPadraic said:


> Also, booking a ticket to somewhere like Steamboat or Aspen is easy: the connections are very well timed.  *Try doing that in Europe on a budget: you'll find yourself on a flag carrier to a major hub and then on Sleazyjet, or jet2, or whatnot for the hop.*



Or RyanAir, where your airplane literally might not have bathrooms in order to fit 4 extra seats. 

 Better have a strong bladder!


----------



## Jully (Jun 7, 2018)

machski said:


> Well, not a valid comparison by him.  Epic unlimited only occurs with a full Epic pass (otherwise blackout days appear).  It's 7 on the full Ikon which should be used as the comparitor.  No I don't see that increasing this year, but perhaps they will give each of the Boyne properties in the East their own days next year to address Vail's purchases.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



The more I think about it, the more i think Boyne pushed for 5 days total, not Alterra. I bet they were worried about Ikon poaching NE pass sales. Plenty of NE passholders ski less than 15 days. Who would pay $700 for a silver NE when you can pay $600 for more resorts and just as much skiing?


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## slatham (Jun 7, 2018)

During the earnings call they noted that there were more opportunities for expansion in the North America, and even more internationally.

No detail on how they spend the $35mm in cap ex at the 4 new resorts.

Geographic diversification is key. They noted how Whistler and Stowe helped offset poor snow in CO/UT, though they did note a strong come back in the second half of the year in UT/CO.


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## sull1102 (Jun 7, 2018)

Doesn't Vail own a mountain or two down under?

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## Killingtime (Jun 7, 2018)

Peak Resorts Market cap $71mm

 For perspective, Vail's NET INCOME for 3rd Q was $256mm

 The rich get richer...... 


It would seem that the value of all Peak Resorts ski areas combined would be worth much more than the $71million market cap it is getting. Vail is selling at 40X earnings so the stock market is factoring in a very healthy growth rate. Peak, at $5.00 a share, seems to be struggling.


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## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Doesn't Vail own a mountain or two down under?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app



Yes - Perisher


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## Smellytele (Jun 7, 2018)

Did Vail buy Okemo- Sunapee- Crested Butte and Stevens Pass or did they  buy the rights to run them? I know Sunapee was only leased from the  State of NH. What do they own? Buildings, lifts and infrastructure? If  the lease was up what would become of the infrastructure?


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## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Did Vail buy Okemo- Sunapee- Crested Butte and Stevens Pass or did they  buy the rights to run them? I know Sunapee was only leased from the  State of NH. What do they own? Buildings, lifts and infrastructure? If  the lease was up what would become of the infrastructure?



Its a little odd, but as part of the deal, they are paying Oz  Real Estate 155 million to pay of the long-term operating leases/buyback the assets (Peaks sold everything to them and did a long term lease back). After the Oz lease is paid off, at Crested Butte and Okemo, they will own everything except what land is leased from the state (Vermont Okemo) or NFS (Crested Butte). For Steven's pass, they really only purchased the right to operate the ski area on NPS land. I believe that what is installed on that land, would ultimately be owned by the Government if a lessee canceled the SUP. I am also going to say that the same thing applies to Sunepee.


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## cdskier (Jun 7, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Did Vail buy Okemo- Sunapee- Crested Butte and Stevens Pass or did they  buy the rights to run them? I know Sunapee was only leased from the  State of NH. What do they own? Buildings, lifts and infrastructure? If  the lease was up what would become of the infrastructure?



"_The Company will purchase Triple Peaks, LLC from the Mueller family for a purchase price of $82 million, subject to certain adjustments. At closing, Triple Peaks will pay $155 million to pay off the leases that all three resorts have with Ski Resort Holdings, LLC, an affiliate of Oz Real Estate, with funds provided by Vail Resorts...

Vail Resorts will, subject to approval, assume the state land leases for Okemo Mountain Resort and Mount Sunapee Resort and will obtain new Special Use Permits from the U.S. Forest Service for Crested Butte Mountain Resort and Stevens Pass Resort. The state land lease transfers in Vermont and New Hampshire are subject to administrative review and consent from their respective states._"

Many ski resorts operate on leased land, so I wouldn't be too concerned about that fact.


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## Jully (Jun 7, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Ragged also has that third peak expansion that was cut years and ago and has gone completely silent since.



Ragged's owners are moving slowly with any and all changes for sure, but they do seem to have a clear plan, especially since the mission affordable thing started. I don't see them selling the resort just yet (if ever). Obviously for the right price they would, but Ragged isn't some incredible hidden jewel of an acquisition for Alterra or Vail.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

> *V**ail Resorts will, subject to approval, assume the state land leases for Okemo Mountain Resort*



Watch for State of Vermont to try to use this as an opportunity to loathsomely stick it's paw into Vail's pockets.


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## Jully (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you're going to be in the publicly traded ski company business, geographical diversification is both wise & prudent.
> 
> It wouldn't shock me if one of Vail's next purchases is European; what does shock me is that they haven't already done so.



I selfishly would love a South American offering too as I would love to get down there in the next few years. The false prospect of it being "free" with my pass is all the more motivation to go.


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## Jully (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Watch for State of Vermont to try to use this as an opportunity to loathsomely stick it's paw into Vail's pockets.



I remember the same caveat for Stowe's addition. I forget if anything came up with that and slowed down the process. Anyone remember?


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## Edd (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Watch for State of Vermont to try to use this as an opportunity to loathsomely stick it's paw into Vail's pockets.



Point at the doll where the government hurt you.[emoji3]


----------



## mbedle (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Watch for State of Vermont to try to use this as an opportunity to loathsomely stick it's paw into Vail's pockets.



Believe of not, they did not do anything substantial to the lease when they transferred it from Stowe to Vail (still pending final resolution approval). Cleaned up a couple of issues and outdated clauses. They did add in that the 5% rental fee would also apply to the tree-top and zip line, which Mansfield Co was already paying for in prior years.  Here is a link to the resolution:

https://legislature.vermont.gov/ass...R.S. 48 As adopted by the Senate Official.pdf

http://auditor.vermont.gov/sites/auditor/files/documents/Final SAO Report on Ski Resort Leases.pdf

https://legislature.vermont.gov/ass...t 75/W~Michael Snyder~Memorandum~2-6-2018.pdf


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## LItoCOtoMA (Jun 7, 2018)

machski said:


> Ok, something's are wrong with your post.  First, Stratton is not a limited resort on Ikon, it is a full resort.  Subject to blackout dates on the base but unlimited on Ikon.  Not sure how Okemo and Sunapee will be on local vs full Epic regarding blackouts Epic site is down currently).  As to the day limits at Loon on Ikon, its 5 on base and 7 on Full Ikon.  Not sure what they would buy to compete with Sunapee that is in good financial shape for Boston day market.  None of the remaining areas leap out at me.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Sorry I wasn't clear. I was making an Ikon Base vs. Epic Local comparison. On Ikon Base Stratton is limited to 5 days w/blackouts. On Epic Local Okemo is unlimited, no blackouts. I think, there is a good chance Alterra opens Stratton up to become totally unlimited to match Vail's acquisition of Okemo.


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## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

LItoCOtoMA said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear. I was making an Ikon Base vs. Epic Local comparison. On Ikon Base Stratton is limited to 5 days w/blackouts. On Epic Local Okemo is unlimited, no blackouts. I think, there is a good chance Alterra opens Stratton up to become totally unlimited to match Vail's acquisition of Okemo.
> View attachment 23917View attachment 23918


Yeah, when I posted I tried to look at Epic details but website was down.  Must be all those Okemo and Sunapee skiers loading down the site buying their cheap Epic Local passes.  That is nuts they are totally unlimited on local, and Stowe is as well now too.  Going to put even more pressure on pass pricing moving forward.  I agree Alterra will need to open Stratton to unlimited on Icon Base, then they have that and Tremblant in East.

Boyne will need to counter, would be nice of Gold NE Pass gave you unlimited access to their Western properties instead of just the 50% off now.

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## benski (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Or RyanAir, where your airplane literally might not have bathrooms in order to fit 4 extra seats.
> 
> Better have a strong bladder!



I think the EU blocked but its only a matter of time before Allegiant does that.


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## benski (Jun 7, 2018)

Jully said:


> I selfishly would love a South American offering too as I would love to get down there in the next few years. The false prospect of it being "free" with my pass is all the more motivation to go.


You could ski Perisher Blue in Australia, I here its almost as exciting as Okemo.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2018)

mbedle said:


> I guess because they owned 10 resorts all located in VT, NH and ME.



Because they had too much New Hampshire market share. 


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 7, 2018)

mbedle said:


> *Believe of not, they did not do anything substantial to the lease when they transferred it from Stowe to Vail (still pending final resolution approval).*



Good to know.  I guess that means someone with some financial acumen talked some sense into the moron radical politicians running Vermont and informed them just how destructive that would be to future prospect of business in Vermont.  My jaw dropped when I read that initial "plan".



benski said:


> *I think the EU blocked* but its only a matter of time before Allegiant does that.



Did they?   I was on a RyanAir flight circa 2007 that definitely didn't have a bathroom, much to my girlfriend's horror!  I vividly remember her RUNNING to customs and doing a pee-pee dance in Cork. Then running like Usain Bolt out of my field of vision post the passport stamping.  I'll never forget that.


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## machski (Jun 7, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Or RyanAir, where your airplane literally might not have bathrooms in order to fit 4 extra seats.
> 
> Better have a strong bladder!


No, they still have bathrooms.  They did ask Boeing to remove them but Boeing said absolutely not.

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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2018)

machski said:


> No, they still have bathrooms.  They did ask Boeing to remove them but Boeing said absolutely not.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



I would believe that restrooms would be mandated by the law (international or EU)


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## thetrailboss (Jun 7, 2018)

https://www.powder.com/stories/why-...fb_social_PWDR_180606_sf191212017#sf191212017


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## machski (Jun 9, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> I would restrooms would be mandated by the law (international or EU)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Nope, not specified by law for air transport.  You can get on an airliner, especially smaller ones that only have one, that have had the lav put on maintenance deferment (meaning it's out of order).  With the newer vacuum toilets (vs the old blue swirl), their is a central system for many types (737 would have one central for all toilets) that if that acts up, all would be deferred.  Now, most airlines would only still use that aircraft for very short runs, but it does happen occasionally.

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## jimk (Jun 9, 2018)

Eastern multi-pass resorts:
Epic:  Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee

MCP:  Sugarbush

IKON:  Killington, Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Mont Tremblant, Stratton, Snowshoe, Loon

What am I overlooking for the East?


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## boston_e (Jun 9, 2018)

jimk said:


> Eastern multi-pass resorts:
> Epic:  Stowe, Okemo, Sunapee
> 
> MCP:  Sugarbush
> ...



sugarbush is also on Ikon

peaks pass gets you mt Snow, Attitash, Wildcat and Crotchet

Killington pass gets you both Killington and Pico (so kinda/sorta a multi resort pass)


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 10, 2018)

machski said:


> No, they still have bathrooms.  They did ask Boeing to remove them but Boeing said absolutely not.



Well, the RyanAir flight from London to Cork I was on circa 2007 definitely did not have a bathroom. 

 Under the circumstances, this is not something one forgets.


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## sull1102 (Jun 10, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Well, the RyanAir flight from London to Cork I was on circa 2007 definitely did not have a bathroom.
> 
> Under the circumstances, this is not something one forgets.


Was also over ten years ago...

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## boston_e (Jun 10, 2018)

boston_e said:


> sugarbush is also on Ikon
> 
> peaks pass gets you mt Snow, Attitash, Wildcat and Crotchet
> 
> Killington pass gets you both Killington and Pico (so kinda/sorta a multi resort pass)



also the Sunday river / Sugarloaf / loon passes are all one pass.


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## mister moose (Jun 10, 2018)

sull1102 said:


> Was also over ten years ago...


Right.  So long ago things were completely different, we were using quill pens and stretching canvass over wooden ribbed wings back then.


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## machski (Jun 10, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Right.  So long ago things were completely different, we were using quill pens and stretching canvass over wooden ribbed wings back then.


May be long enough for Ryanair though.  Very probable they still had some used 737's in their fleet that they had refurbed to their desires.  I know for a fact Boeing told them no to new ones without bathrooms.

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## benski (Jun 10, 2018)

machski said:


> May be long enough for Ryanair though.  Very probable they still had some used 737's in their fleet that they had refurbed to their desires.  I know for a fact Boeing told them no to new ones without bathrooms.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



They probably removed it or more likely had a bathroom but locked the door instead of fixing it. Discount airlines don’t schedule time to fix issues so they only operate newer planes so there are not many issues. It’s stagnant or shrinking hub carries that use old planes.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 10, 2018)

benski said:


> *Discount airlines* don’t schedule time to fix issues so they *only operate newer planes so there are not many issues. *It’s stagnant or shrinking hub carries that use old planes.



Is this really true?   That's the opposite of my layman's observational experience.  Seems to me it's the Airtrans, Valujets, & Allegiants I've seen that often have old crappy planes.


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## benski (Jun 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is this really true?   That's the opposite of my layman's observational experience.  Seems to me it's the Airtrans, Valujets, & Allegiants I've seen that often have old crappy planes.



Yes. Allegiants is old but in general that’s true. Spirit has the youngest US fleet and Delta is not much better Alligiant. It could also be the lack of seat back displayed that are making there planes seem dated.


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## farlep99 (Jun 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> If you're going to be in the publicly traded ski company business, geographical diversification is both wise & prudent.
> 
> It wouldn't shock me if one of Vail's next purchases is European; what does shock me is that they haven't already done so.



I think one of the reasons they’re not in on the European market is because the ownership structure there is so different.  In Austria & Switzerland the majority ofthe on-mountain amenities (as well as the adjacent land) is privately owned, many of them owned by the same families for many, many years (I presume France is the same, but I’m not sure).  I’m not aware of any mountains over there where one company owns the actual land or any of the on-mountain restaurants.  There are companies that own and run the entire lift network and grooming operations on any given mountain.  The private landowners pay into the system (to get people up the hill & to their restaurants/bars).  Then the towns/municipalities themselves participate in marketing, etc.  I don’t remember all of the details about exactly how it works, but I remember reading an interesting article about European ski resort structure.   Suffice it to say, Vail attempting to purchase a mountain in Europe could get very complicated.  I think the best they could do would be to acquire certain lift operation companies & I’m not really sure how profitable they are.  I’m sure they’re profitable, but it being Europe there’s probably rules on how profitable they can become, or what they have to re-invest or pay in tax.  Probably just not worth it for Vail.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2018)

farlep99 said:


> I think one of the reasons they’re not in on the European market is because the ownership structure there is so different.  In Austria & Switzerland the majority ofthe on-mountain amenities (as well as the adjacent land) is privately owned, many of them owned by the same families for many, many years (I presume France is the same, but I’m not sure).  I’m not aware of any mountains over there where one company owns the actual land or any of the on-mountain restaurants.  There are companies that own and run the entire lift network and grooming operations on any given mountain.  The private landowners pay into the system (to get people up the hill & to their restaurants/bars).  Then the towns/municipalities themselves participate in marketing, etc.  I don’t remember all of the details about exactly how it works, but I remember reading an interesting article about European ski resort structure.   Suffice it to say, Vail attempting to purchase a mountain in Europe could get very complicated.  I think the best they could do would be to acquire certain lift operation companies & I’m not really sure how profitable they are.  I’m sure they’re profitable, but it being Europe there’s probably rules on how profitable they can become, or what they have to re-invest or pay in tax.  Probably just not worth it for Vail.



I know that many ski areas are in fact publicly owned by the towns/government.


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## sull1102 (Jun 11, 2018)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is this really true?   That's the opposite of my layman's observational experience.  Seems to me it's the Airtrans, Valujets, & Allegiants I've seen that often have old crappy planes.


You'd be surprised, look at Norwegian with their fleet of all new Dreamliners and 737 Max's. Those are both Boeing's latest and greatest offerings and having flown both in the last 9 months I must say they were a whole lot nicer than what United has to offer most trips. Unfortunately there's been a lot of news lately surrounding Rolls Royce engine trouble on the Dreamliners and how that might hurt Norwegian with summer travel. 

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## sull1102 (Jun 11, 2018)

mister moose said:


> Right.  So long ago things were completely different, we were using quill pens and stretching canvass over wooden ribbed wings back then.


In the travel industry, and many others, 08 to 18 is an incredibly long time. Boeing hadn't even conducted the first flight of the best selling plane today, the 787, and the 737 Max(a major player in today's airline industry) hadn't even been thought of. Airbus' A380 had all of 10 weeks in service entering January 08 while JetBlue was still a baby airline at just 8 years old. 

Also Android didnt exist outside developer communities, the iPhone 3g was being released in July 2008, and Airbnb was only founded a month later in August. 

So yeah, it was quite a long time ago and things have changed dramatically when it comes to travel since then...

Sent from my Pixel using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 2planks2coasts (Jun 17, 2018)

MadPadraic said:


> On a related note, we should all write to the Powder Alliance and ask them to add Eastern areas to their network.



This!!  Windham, Jay, Burke and the ORDA areas would complement the western resorts nicely, without feeding the planet devouring Vail  or Alterra.


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## machski (Jun 17, 2018)

benski said:


> Yes. Allegiants is old but in general that’s true. Spirit has the youngest US fleet and Delta is not much better Alligiant. It could also be the lack of seat back displayed that are making there planes seem dated.


Except you miss some facts.  Spirit started out with crappy, old planes too and slowly changed to incorporating new Airbus 320 series aircraft.  Allegiant has learned the same though many of their Airbus 320 series they have now are used airframes (but they are adding brand new ones now).  Delta has like 7 times the airframes Allegiant does (and that is just mainline, remember while regional partners operate the regional jets, many are actually owned by the mainline) which makes turning their fleet over a longer process.  The MD88's will be gone by early next year and they are switching out many of the older equipment for newer.  But some older equipment will stay for a while because some, like the 757, don't have a direct replacement for the  intercontinental missions they fly (yes, the 737 Max is doing some shorter runs to Europe, but it doesn't have the range or cargo capacity the 757 does).

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## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2018)

Back to the deal....looks like the Sunapee lease transfer needs to be approved by NH.  There will be an open meeting to discuss and get public input.  

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_b597b1ea-ac20-5635-8ca2-a26dfeef0673.html


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## thetrailboss (Jul 9, 2018)

For those interested and in the area....July 25th at 6pm at the Sunapee Lodge:

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_01e472b8-45d4-5c8c-ac17-77cc8e1aba7b.html


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## thetrailboss (Sep 27, 2018)

NH approves the transfer of the Sunapee Lease to Vail. 

https://www.wcax.com/content/news/N...sale-of-Mount-Sunapee-ski-area-494499061.html


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