# A new boys first skis



## tcharron (Dec 5, 2006)

Been reading the forums this year, as I'm anxiously awaiting Crotched Mt to open (15 minutes away, and bought a family season pass this year), and I wanted some feedback on a pair of ski's my son conned me into getting him.

  This will be his second year on skis, and last year he did amazingly well, going up the lift within an two hours of his first lesson ever, and by the end of the year, being very comfortable.  He's 8 years old, and VERY excited.

  Now, we decided to get him a decent set of moderatly used skis this year, as with the season pass, it'd be cheaper then renting.  Now, what we ended up getting him is a type of ski I'm not familiar in the slightest with.  Personally, I just starting hitting the mountain again after NOT skiing for about 12 years.  This year, I got myself a new set of off year Blizzards, but my son, oh, isn't he the picky one who wants things different.











  Will he have any issues using these for general downhill slope use?  Apperently, he has a friend a little older then him that does some things on skis I'd prob break my neck even thinging about, which I suspect is one of the reasons he wanted these skis, and I got them at a relatively good buy, so if it turns out they are utterly unsuited for him it's not a huge loss, but I figured I'd try to get some feedback from those who would know more then I.  

  Comments?  Suggestions?  Smacks on the back of the head?


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2006)

The Rossi Scratch is a bump ski...looks like it was set up to be skied that way judging from the 2 piece binding with no lifter plate. Those would probably make good park skis too.

I know some here feel otherwise, but I've always felt that kids should start out on a ski like this. Not too stiff, but still solid enough for a smaller person to make nice carves on. I prefer bump/twin tips myself and I'm not at all small. I don't like stiff skis with huge riser plates that make them even stiffer. 8 year olds should be skiing the whole mountain, bumps, crud, powder, etc. I think that's a good ski for that purpose.

So I think that's a good all mountain choice for your 8 year old.


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## Morewood (Dec 5, 2006)

You should be fine with Rossi Scratch for your son. That is a pretty cool ski for an 8 year old and it will perform fine for learning to ski and playing on the jumps and what not.


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## Birdman829 (Dec 5, 2006)

Should be just fine. The twin tip will help him with skidded turns and he thinks they're cool which is a plus. Those two factors, plus a little extra width should help improve his learning curve.


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Dec 5, 2006)

awesome park and trick ski, very noodley and soft ( is that a word?) I would think about riser plates to help carv the turns on the groomers. He will be the coolest on the mountain with those graphics!


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2006)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> awesome park and trick ski, very noodley and soft ( is that a word?) I would think about riser plates to help carv the turns on the groomers. He will be the coolest on the mountain with those graphics!



He's only 8 years old...I don't think he'll need the plates at his age.

It's a soft ski, but I don't think an 8 year old will overpower them.


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Dec 5, 2006)

JimG. said:


> He's only 8 years old...I don't think he'll need the plates at his age.
> 
> It's a soft ski, but I don't think an 8 year old will overpower them.



I thought the plates brought you up off the ski so it was easier to turn regardless of weight height etc. Is that false? This changes your center of gravity or some such technical term. What I meant by soft was they tend to wander easier and be much more loose that a nice heavier carving ski. Although weight is a factor in this it still boils down to sidecut and ski dynamics. 
Regardless he will adapt and love them.


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## tcharron (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm glad that the general consensus seems to be positive on the ski choice then.  

  I'm still amazed by how well he took to skiing.  What I wouldn't allow him to do last year was go down some of the 'offtrail' trails, the areas with bumps and trees and the such, and it sounds like that's exactly the sort of thing these skis are good for.

  And the fact that I got a good deal on them makes me even happier.  ;-P


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2006)

Jay's Dip Powcher said:


> I thought the plates brought you up off the ski so it was easier to turn regardless of weight height etc. Is that false? This changes your center of gravity or some such technical term. What I meant by soft was they tend to wander easier and be much more loose that a nice heavier carving ski. Although weight is a factor in this it still boils down to sidecut and ski dynamics.
> Regardless he will adapt and love them.



Actually, plates became the rage with shaped technology as a means to keep the skier from booting out when turning. Since you can really get your legs out from under you with a shaped ski, some skiers had the issue of the inside of the boot touching the snow and thus having the edge totally release from the snow. But you have to really exaggerate hip and ankle angles to actually boot out. 

As time passed, plates were used to impart stiffness to the ski; now, ski manufacturers build plates right into the ski to make you buy their bindings. 

So the purpose of the plate has kind of morphed over the years. For all mountain skiing, I feel that plates are totally optional. I prefer a flat ski without plates. Those are getting harder and harder to find nowadays.

I do not think plates make skis easier to turn. They do raise your center of gravity, but that can be a positive or a negative depending on the skill of the skier. My point with the softness is that we're discussing an 8 year old...he really isn't heavy enough to make these skis wander or feel noodley. He sounds like he prefers the park and all mountain stuff too, making plates irrelevant.

Now if he were running gates I'd advise his father much differently.


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2006)

tcharron said:


> I'm glad that the general consensus seems to be positive on the ski choice then.
> 
> I'm still amazed by how well he took to skiing.  What I wouldn't allow him to do last year was go down some of the 'offtrail' trails, the areas with bumps and trees and the such, and it sounds like that's exactly the sort of thing these skis are good for.
> 
> And the fact that I got a good deal on them makes me even happier.  ;-P



Don't be amazed at how smart your son is...he knew exactly what he wanted.


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## Birdman829 (Dec 5, 2006)

tcharron said:


> I'm glad that the general consensus seems to be positive on the ski choice then.
> 
> I'm still amazed by how well he took to skiing.  What I wouldn't allow him to do last year was go down some of the 'offtrail' trails, the areas with bumps and trees and the such, and it sounds like that's exactly the sort of thing these skis are good for.
> 
> And the fact that I got a good deal on them makes me even happier.  ;-P



Does he wear a helmet? If so set him loose. If not, buy him one. Helmets have been the topic of some intense debates around here but most people will probably agree that 8 year olds shouldn't be making any forays into the woods without a brain bucket.


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## tcharron (Dec 5, 2006)

Birdman829 said:


> Does he wear a helmet? If so set him loose. If not, buy him one. Helmets have been the topic of some intense debates around here but most people will probably agree that 8 year olds shouldn't be making any forays into the woods without a brain bucket.



  Oh heck yes.  Last year when he rented, they came with the rentals.  This year (as in, within the next week or so) I'm going to go ahead and get him his own.  Which of course he wants to sticker, paint, and otherwise customize to be 'his'.

  I really want to do as much as I can to encourage him into the sport, because he really hasn't taken to any sort of sport before, and he took to it so well.

  His 12 year old brother is all sorts of annoyed as he wants to snowboard, and, well..  Let's just say he didn't take to it nearly as well as his brother to skiing.  But again, Mr expert in everything 12 year old could use a little of his 8 year old brother skiing circles around him.


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## tcharron (Dec 5, 2006)

DoH!  Noticed the thread moved.  My bad, I thought the Gear and Equipment forum was for buying and selling and the such.  :lol:


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2006)

Birdman829 said:


> 8 year olds shouldn't be making any forays into the woods without a brain bucket.



8, 18, or 80 years old, you need a helmet in the woods or when doing tricks.


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## Marc (Dec 5, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Actually, plates became the rage with shaped technology as a means to keep the skier from booting out when turning. Since you can really get your legs out from under you with a shaped ski, some skiers had the issue of the inside of the boot touching the snow and thus having the edge totally release from the snow. But you have to really exaggerate hip and ankle angles to actually boot out.
> 
> As time passed, plates were used to impart stiffness to the ski; now, ski manufacturers build plates right into the ski to make you buy their bindings.
> 
> ...



I respectfully, partially disagree.  Plates under bindings do everything you said, get the boot further off the snow, and they will stiffen the ski... although I'd say only marginally for fixed bindings.  If a binding is fixed back and front, the stiff boot sole with prevent that part of the ski from flexing and will mostly be left to the tip and the tail.

I do think the higher the boot, the easier to initiate a turn.  It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the skier's center of gravity, which only changes, what, an inch?  The dynamic center of gravity of a skier changes by the foot just by the skier crouching or standing.

The reason a higher binding positions makes it easier to initiate a turn is because when a shaped ski tips, as you know, it starts turning.  The force applied to encourage the ski to tip up to the side (if viewed from the front or back) is applied by the skier at the boot sole/binding interface.  The effective moment (lever) arm is from the bottom of the boot to the snow, so if this distance is increased with a lifter plate, the effective moment arm increases, and requires less force to produce the same torque on the ski.  Therefore, it is easier to tip, and easier to turn.


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## JimG. (Dec 5, 2006)

Marc said:


> I respectfully, partially disagree.  Plates under bindings do everything you said, get the boot further off the snow, and they will stiffen the ski... although I'd say only marginally for fixed bindings.  If a binding is fixed back and front, the stiff boot sole with prevent that part of the ski from flexing and will mostly be left to the tip and the tail.
> 
> I do think the higher the boot, the easier to initiate a turn.  It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the skier's center of gravity, which only changes, what, an inch?  The dynamic center of gravity of a skier changes by the foot just by the skier crouching or standing.
> 
> The reason a higher binding positions makes it easier to initiate a turn is because when a shaped ski tips, as you know, it starts turning.  The force applied to encourage the ski to tip up to the side (if viewed from the front or back) is applied by the skier at the boot sole/binding interface.  The effective moment (lever) arm is from the bottom of the boot to the snow, so if this distance is increased with a lifter plate, the effective moment arm increases, and requires less force to produce the same torque on the ski.  Therefore, it is easier to tip, and easier to turn.



@#$%!^&ing engineers!

I see your point...but when shaped skis came on the market, I assure you that plates were not added because they made the skis easier to turn. That was already a big selling point for the increased sidecut. Manufacturers recommended plates to stop booting out.


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## Marc (Dec 5, 2006)

JimG. said:


> @#$%!^&ing engineers!
> 
> I see your point...but when shaped skis came on the market, I assure you that plates were not added because they made the skis easier to turn. That was already a big selling point for the increased sidecut. Manufacturers recommended plates to stop booting out.



I can't help it; it's a disease.  I do not doubt your knowledge regarding their history.





And FWIW, I agree with you in preferring a flat ski and a flat binding.  Which is why I just picked up those Scott Aztec's with the Look bindings.  They felt very nice in the bumps on Killington last weekend...


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## tcharron (Dec 5, 2006)

JimG. said:


> @#$%!^&ing engineers!
> 
> I see your point...but when shaped skis came on the market, I assure you that plates were not added because they made the skis easier to turn. That was already a big selling point for the increased sidecut. Manufacturers recommended plates to stop booting out.



I suspect they where mostly added to have something cool and new, with little actual research done as to 'WHY'.  As an engineer, I can promise you, most 'new things' added are mostly hyped by marketing to 'value add'


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## Jay's Dip Powcher (Dec 5, 2006)

JimG. said:


> Actually, plates became the rage with shaped technology as a means to keep the skier from booting out when turning. Since you can really get your legs out from under you with a shaped ski, some skiers had the issue of the inside of the boot touching the snow and thus having the edge totally release from the snow. But you have to really exaggerate hip and ankle angles to actually boot out.
> 
> As time passed, plates were used to impart stiffness to the ski; now, ski manufacturers build plates right into the ski to make you buy their bindings.
> 
> ...



I see and you have great points. Good to see that I am still learning, thanks


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## PowderDeprived (Dec 6, 2006)

For a kid, as long as it is short, not too stiff, and shaped you can't go to wrong,  If you haven't allready bought him boots, I sugest finding and working with a good bootfiter, that is the most important part. I learned that they hard way when I fist skied, having started out with boots 2 sizes to big.  

I allwayse feel sorry for the kid out on the mountain on 4th generation hand me down rear entry boots, with 3 pairs of socks on because they are waaaaaay to big.  See it all the time.


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## tcharron (Dec 6, 2006)

Aye, I'm going to be bringing him more then likely to Zimmerman's outlet in Amherst, NH, and pick up a pair of used boots for him.  Waiting for the skis to be delivered so they can also adjust them specifically for the boot we end up getting him.


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## tcharron (Mar 15, 2007)

JimG. said:


> The Rossi Scratch is a bump ski...looks like it was set up to be skied that way judging from the 2 piece binding with no lifter plate. Those would probably make good park skis too.
> 
> I know some here feel otherwise, but I've always felt that kids should start out on a ski like this. Not too stiff, but still solid enough for a smaller person to make nice carves on. I prefer bump/twin tips myself and I'm not at all small. I don't like stiff skis with huge riser plates that make them even stiffer. 8 year olds should be skiing the whole mountain, bumps, crud, powder, etc. I think that's a good ski for that purpose.
> 
> So I think that's a good all mountain choice for your 8 year old.



JimG and others, I just wanted to say after this year, you where ABSOLUTELY right.  He got chances to visit all parts of the mountain this year, and I believe these skis helped him a tremendous amount.  He did bumps, trees, little jumps, downhill, hell, he even went down a half pipe!    And he was VERY proud to be using these skis.  

Personally, I want to get a pair of similar skis for myself next year.

Anyhow, just wanted to thank all of you really quick.


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## JimG. (Mar 15, 2007)

tcharron said:


> JimG and others, I just wanted to say after this year, you where ABSOLUTELY right.  He got chances to visit all parts of the mountain this year, and I believe these skis helped him a tremendous amount.  He did bumps, trees, little jumps, downhill, hell, he even went down a half pipe!    And he was VERY proud to be using these skis.
> 
> Personally, I want to get a pair of similar skis for myself next year.
> 
> Anyhow, just wanted to thank all of you really quick.



Glad I was right in this case!


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