# Mountain Bikers and ATV's



## Trailbait (Apr 15, 2005)

Hello everyone!
  I'm visiting from the mountain biking community. Currently on our message board, there is a debate raging between mountain bikers and ATV riders. I was hoping to get some input from people who enjoy parks, but neither bike nor ride ATV's.

 How do you guys feel about them? Are MTB's just as bad as ATV's to you guys?

 Would you oppose opening up Wilderness areas to mountain bikes?

 Have you had confrontations with either group?

 Then there is my poll question

   Thanks for all your input!!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 15, 2005)

If you're talking about strictly "wilderness area" than any kind of development that opens up the area to bikes and atv's would not be appropriate IMHO.


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## Mike P. (Apr 15, 2005)

Areas designated as Wilderness, no, IMO they should not be open

Other areas?  it's a very slippery slope, if you allow ATV's why not the 4x4 crowd, both are motorized vehicles with four wheels, how can you allow one & not the other?

ATV are similar to snowmobiles with the one exception that once the snow melts you don't see any signs they were there, not true with ATV's & to some extent MTB's.

In CT, I've been to two places, one often, the other only a few times; that have mixed (MTB, hikers +) traffic.  The Airline trail is a rail trail that allows horses, bikes baby strollers & wlkers but no motorized travel,  on occassion you will see a dirt bike or ATV.  All the people who are allowed on teh trail get along well, the trail is also pretty straight so the possibility of being surprised by a fast moving bike around the corner does not really happen.

The other place I have been to on occasion is Gay City State Park which also connects (or did I think some of the land has been developed lately) in the back to the Case Mountain (Highland Park) area in Manchester.  Gay City is very popular with MTBs & hikers  (I'm a view junkie & most of these is hardwood forest so I don't go much)  They get along although the hikers that go there, many have dogs, I suspect loose dogs & moving MTB's could be an issue, on occasion you will hear about hikers who had to move quickly to avoid a bike.

My guess is that as more people are getting worked on about marks left on trails & rocks by hiking poles & erosion, (the vast majority of these are really from crampons - middle of the trail on rocks, usually more than one + the force required to scratch a rock is difficult to generate with your arm unless you are trying to do it), MTB's are not going to be encouraged in more places.

Looking at the Mud one sees at a Moto-cross event (late night ESPN2) or when you see muddy ATV's on a trailer or a mud covered  4x4, the group has many a black eye to clean up.  Hikers gripe about the few hikers that litter, you only see that if you are out on the trail.  

I will say that in mixed use places, I see more litter than just hiking & it's usually empty Power Gel & gu packets which as I understand from riders, including my brother the biking junkie - Class 2 road racer Henk - these power gels are popular with bikers as they are easier to eat/drink than a bar & water

Short reply, rail trails fine, some state parks on wide open terrain okay, otherwise better off seperate.  IMO most of the trails in ADK High Peaks or Whites are inappropriate.  Heck in ADK they don't hike people post-holing in snow.


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## Paul (Apr 15, 2005)

Sounds like you're in my neck of the woods, Mike (Pun intended!)

I live right near the head of the Airline Trail and MTB it all the time. Of course, I usually have my daughter as a passenger, so I'm not doing anything other than riding along straight and at an even pace. I have seen spots ruined by ATV traffic, however. When you get out to the Lebanon end, it is impassable. Gay City is another one that I prefer to hike, and there are sections where it can get hairy with mixed traffic, but I have yet to see an actual problem.

I think that in most of these areas, MTBs are not a real issue and don't do any more significant damage than hikers. 
ATVs on the other hand....
Nope, don't care for 'em.

Oh, and in Wilderness areas....just boot traffic, please.


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## Mike P. (Apr 15, 2005)

In Colchester


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## madman (Apr 16, 2005)

Paul + Mike P you are both in my neck of the woods. I live in Chaplin + grew up + work in Manchester. As far as the orignal question i feel ATVs and dirt bikes need there own space [I ride dirt bikes] I am lucky to have land owners around me who ride. But i have never seen a problem between mtb riders + hikers. MTBs are pretty much silent and dont cause a great deal of erosion. I read a study done years ago about multy use trails, there conclusion was that the combination of hikers horses + MTBs was good becaus the bikes wwould roll the dirt that hikers and horses kick up. Of course you should not ride after a soaking rain.                                                   PAUL I will be riding the airline this aft around 3:00 at 11th station rd Old jeep cherokee tulie rack. Or we should PM later get together for hike or ride


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## bigbog (Apr 16, 2005)

...As far as I've seen, Maine has ATV trails designated by signs, which is fine by me, but with unlimited access....with the noise they make and the terrain damage from today's aggressive tires...?  Today's ATVs are more powerful and noisy than my late grandad's original VW bug.  I love my Xterra & 4WD, but wilderness needs to be preserved.  Access needs to have a limit, otherwise _Wilderness_ will have a timeclock hangin' over it.  MTBs are great...


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## pedxing (Apr 17, 2005)

_How do you guys feel about them? Are MTB's just as bad as ATV's to you guys? _

In part, it depends on the rider/driver.  ATV's have the potential to be more noxious because of the noise, size, weight and pollution, but a polite, careful rule-abiding ATV person is preferable to an aggressive MTB rider who comes zipping down trails where MTB's aren't supposed to be.

_Would you oppose opening up Wilderness areas to mountain bikes?_

Designated Wilderness Areas, yes. Other, less protected areas, on a case by case basis. 

_Have you had confrontations with either group?_  I've had some scares with reckless hot dogging mountain bikers, none with ATV's (although I have been annoyed by the sound and pollution - I said nothing as they had a legal right to be there)

_Then there is my poll question_ 
I would hike/camp less often in an area with ATV access.


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## Talisman (Apr 27, 2005)

My beef with ATVs is the erosion, perhaps caused by a few riders but local trails that have with stood hiking, mtn biking and horses for years have turned into quagmire or hillsides of loose sand in a single afternoon.  For some reason dirt bikes don't seem to cause as much erosion damage.

I hike and mtn bike and never had any problems with dogs, hikers, bikers or horses.


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## skizilla (Apr 27, 2005)

*New Guy From Southwick*

I am new to this board but like it quite a bit.
Motorized vehicles have zero place on recreational paths.  They cause tremendous erosion and their noise spoils the tranquility and natural state of the woods.
That being said these people are tax payers and deserve their own designated lands to ride on.  As long as these places are designated motorcycle riding areas and it it well posted i have no problem as long as they remain a small percentage of the state park acreage and have terrrain appropriate to their needs.
***I have friends who use atv and motorized vehicles on trails who always bitch about not having anywhere to ride i always reply that they should form clubs like the AMC or Trustees of reservations with the puepose of protecting land for riding.  Hikers presserve thousands of acres for use in this way.  These motorbike and atv enthusiasts spends thousands on there vehicles to purchase them and probably hundreds a years to maintain and fuel them so what is 50 to 100 a year to support an organization that preserves and main tains trails for you.
An additional benefit of riders buying up land like this is that it is additional money toward open space and that is good for everyone.


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## cbcbd (Apr 27, 2005)

*Re: New Guy From Southwick*



			
				skizilla said:
			
		

> i always reply that they should form clubs like the AMC or Trustees of reservations with the puepose of protecting land for riding.  Hikers presserve thousands of acres for use in this way.  These motorbike and atv enthusiasts spends thousands on there vehicles to purchase them and probably hundreds a years to maintain and fuel them so what is 50 to 100 a year to support an organization that preserves and main tains trails for you.
> An additional benefit of riders buying up land like this is that it is additional money toward open space and that is good for everyone.


That is a great idea. MTB trails are already limited, ATVs have even less. All my friends that have ATVs basically end up riding them in their backyards.
I bet if someone bought some land in any of the New England states and opened up an ATV park it would be extremely popular and make tons of money! 


I haven't had any run-ins with MTBs yet, I guess most of the trails I hike usually do not permit bikes on them. In my old town, Trumbull, I used to MTB at the Poquanuck river valley and never really ran into any pedestrians on the trail.

Hiking and ATVs just plain don't mix. Each group is trying to accomplish the opposite of the other in the same environment.


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## Charlie Schuessler (Apr 27, 2005)

*ATV Park....*



			
				cbcbd said:
			
		

> ...I bet if someone bought some land in any of the New England states and opened up an ATV park it would be extremely popular and make tons of money...



It is being attempted in NH, however the ATV fellows are not as savvy as the Hiking Clubs nor the Snowmobile Clubs with their efforts...their liabilities are much different...I am aware of two ATV areas that have opened and closed BROKE while another other area I'm VERY familiar with doesn't want to go through the legal process of permitting and safety provision considerations....so the Town and SUPIERIOR Court CLOSED HIM DOWN (even with ATV Club(s) $$$ backing him)...

Respectfully I believe if a person purchases an ATV to ride, they should own enough land to ride it on and not burden society with their indulgence...


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## skizilla (Apr 28, 2005)

*ATV MOTOR BIKE LAND*

What i am am proposing is not a for profit motorcycle club or track.  I am proposing a nonprofit like TNC or AMC well actually more like a local land conservation group.  Thye just buy land build and maintain trails and declare it open to motorized vehicles.

I have zero problem with mountain bikes i myself bike often and would like to see more trail access for them.  In my opinion any trail open to a horse should be open to a bike.  Bikes do a little more damage than a hiker but not much I have read various studies on this you can find some of the m at imba and nemba.  In some terrain they do less damage and they certainly do less damage than horses who hundreds of pounds and leave their droppings everywhere.


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## Paul (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: ATV Park....*



> Respectfully I believe if a person purchases an ATV to ride, they should own enough land to ride it on and not burden society with their indulgence...



Best point made yet.


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## Charlie Schuessler (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: ATV MOTOR BIKE LAND*



			
				skizilla said:
			
		

> What i am am proposing is not a for profit motorcycle club or track.  I am proposing a nonprofit like TNC or AMC well actually more like a local land conservation group.  Thye just buy land build and maintain trails and declare it open to motorized vehicles.
> 
> I have zero problem with mountain bikes i myself bike often and would like to see more trail access for them.  In my opinion any trail open to a horse should be open to a bike.  Bikes do a little more damage than a hiker but not much I have read various studies on this you can find some of the m at imba and nemba.  In some terrain they do less damage and they certainly do less damage than horses who hundreds of pounds and leave their droppings everywhere.



Southwick MA....do they still host an AMA 125 National Motocross Race there?


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## Mike P. (Apr 28, 2005)

the problem for buying land & then allowing others to use it is if they get hurt, you may be on the hook.  Signed Waivers don't carry that much weight unless you have an ordinance or law supporting you.  (Sporting events, ski areas)  in both these cases the patrons are doing something fairly predictable.   If ski areas did not have dangerous places signed, (trail guides, easy, double diamond, etc.) cliffs, (more likely out west) or if a baseball hit the roof of a dome & part of the dome fell the waiver would not hold.  (you expect hard trails or foul balls, you don't expect cliffs & falling debris)

Some ATV riders would just stay on trails & look at the scenery others would be jumping & climbing the steepest terrain they could find.  (Similar to snowmobiliers you see out west climbing mountains & occassionally causing avalanches - on Public land you can only sue the Gov't  (one of the 96 deaths on Washington - in Tucks - tried this & may still be ongoing)  suing the USA doesn't do so well.

Profit or not for profit might make a little difference but the owner would still have some liability, sure you can keep the trail groomed (like ski trails) but when users venture OB a downed tree or maybe barbed wire from a prior owner 80 years ago far off the trails can be fatal.  There are still taxes & maintaince on a big piece of land.

Maybe the logger in NH that is clearcutting can ake some ATV money before he sells to developers!    :blink:


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## skizilla (Apr 28, 2005)

*Southwick races and motorcycle land*

Yes southwick still has these races and motorcycles are a huge part  of town culture.

I imagine the nonprofit motorcycle land would have the same insurance coverage the any preserve land would have.  Some preserves allow mtn bikes and snowmobiles and horses and crosscountry and back country skiing all risky sports theoretically.

Trails don't even need to have park features etc just basic trails and members of the area would maintain it just like amc members do probably even more i would think given that they like jumps and altered features.

To be honest I really hate motorcycles especially noisy harley davidsons. But any additional land protected even as a playground for riders is better than condos or a CVS being built and it is a sport and encourage fitness and a positive attitude about being outdoors all things we can agree are good ideas.  That and when i suggest motorcyclist buy their own preserves ust like the AMC does it kind of shuts them up.

I know of tow motorcycle clubs that have decnt  tracks of land one in waterford ct and one in milford ct i think.


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## Big Game (May 8, 2005)

*Re: Southwick races and motorcycle land*



			
				skizilla said:
			
		

> I know of tow motorcycle clubs that have decnt  tracks of land one in waterford ct and one in milford ct i think.



Yeas, there's one in Milford. 

I think there is one of New Britain or something. I think they charge $500 a year. But a guess and this is true of a lot of guys who try to open a place on their own land and then charge $$$ is that many Mx'rs and ATVs don't like paying.  Which is kind of insane --- each ride on my KDX would cost me at least $50 in parts I'd have to replace.


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