# Auto tires for winter driving



## billski (Jan 3, 2008)

I picked up a used AWD sedan which now needs tires.  I can only buy one set of four tires at this time, so I'm thinking about some 4-season tires that can last until next winter, then get a set of winter tires at that time, to spread out the expense.  

Any comments on ski-adventure-driving on 4-season tires on an AWD sedan?  My daily commute is 50 miles round trip on the highway.  I will be doing trips to the Green (Stowe, Bush, Mt. Snow, Middlebury, MRG) and White mountains, and usually drive only on plowed, but occasionally snow-packed roads.  Sometimes find myself in a storm for a few hours, though I usually wait it out or get there early, so it's only a few miles.

My bud has an AWD subie and for five years has driven weekly to Stowe, up the steep Notchbrook road (where I got stuck in my FWD)  with only 4-season tires.  He's NEVER bought snows.

Having said that, I just splurged for a set of Blizzaks for my wife's car and just love it.  It's just not in the cards for two more sets and I don't want to drive winter tires all summer.

Tire brand/model suggestions also appreciated.

Thanks!


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## bigbog (Jan 3, 2008)

*...$.01*

My $.01 is that I think marketing labels can be thrown out the window...  I'm on a *ProComp* _All-Terrain_ 4wd tire that's great for snow & ice.  Other than these I avoid anything labeled "All-Terrain" like the plague, but these are terrific...the design is _there!_...that's all that matters in winter...along with some added weight over the axles/wheels.   Deep mud (Spring/Summer in the woods) is another matter...


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2008)

Snow tires are the way to go if you drive into ski country often, especially if you like to drive during or following a storm. More important than AWD, IMO. Studs are unnecessary for your needs, so don't bother with them. If you put the tires on as late as possible and take them off ASAP once winter is done and switch over to regular tires for the non-snowy months, a solid three years of life is a good bet for the winter tread and then you have yourself a pair of all seasons for a while longer.

I think the upper end snow tires such as the Blizzaks are over kill for most drivers that do not drive on snow frequently. This season, I splurged for Michelin X-Ice which have been phenomenal, but I have a light weight FWD vehicle and drive in snow a lot, especially chasing storms. Last season I had Copper Weathermasters which worked well but were not top of the line. My Significant Other has whatever Dunlop's snows are and they don't seem very impressive but certainly waaay better than all seasons in the snow. The lower to mid price range tires would probably be fine for your needs.


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## WWF-VT (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a 2001 Audi A6 Quattro wagon that has done well in VT on Michelin all season tires.  For extra capability this winter have put on a set of Dunlop Winter Sport 3D's which are good on dry pavement, highway driving but give the extra capability in the snow.


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## mlctvt (Jan 4, 2008)

I agree with Riv on this one. Do yourself a favor and get a second set of rims with snow tires mounted. Check out sites like Tirerack.com or discounttiredirect.com, they sell low cost rims for most cars. Their prices berat all local sources. Both my wife and I drive AWD Subarus and we both run snow tires in winter and summer only tires in the other seasons. The extra traction is really needed when driving in storms on the way to skkiing. Either Car and Driver or Road & Track ran a story a while back that showed tires are much more important than AWD. They tested cars that were available in both 2WD and AWD formats and in every instance the 2WD cars with snow tires mounted  outperformed the AWD with all season tires in snow or ice covered roads.  Even rear wheel drive cars with snow tires beat the AWD with all season tires!


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## tjf67 (Jan 4, 2008)

I use goodrich long trail AT tire.  They are not bad on the high way and they are fine in the snow and ice.  I have a territory in the adirondacks and travel 400 miles around the high peaks each week and never have problems.  Any new tire will be fine its when the treads get down to about 5k miles left when you have the problems.   Snow tires are a nice luxury but not necessary now a days with the amount of plowing that is done.  Plus they ride like crap in anything other than snow and the highways eat them up


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## tjf67 (Jan 4, 2008)

mlctvt said:


> I agree with Riv on this one. Do yourself a favor and get a second set of rims with snow tires mounted. Check out sites like Tirerack.com or discounttiredirect.com, they sell low cost rims for most cars. Their prices berat all local sources. Both my wife and I drive AWD Subarus and we both run snow tires in winter and summer only tires in the other seasons. The extra traction is really needed when driving in storms on the way to skkiing. Either Car and Driver or Road & Track ran a story a while back that showed tires are much more important than AWD. They tested cars that were available in both 2WD and AWD formats and in every instance the 2WD cars with snow tires mounted  outperformed the AWD with all season tires in snow or ice covered roads.  Even rear wheel drive cars with snow tires beat the AWD with all season tires!



I will take my awd with at tires and run circles around any car with 2wd with snow tires.  They probaly had my mom in the awd vehicle and tony stewart with 2wd snow tires.


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## Marc (Jan 4, 2008)

Yeah, traction depends on SO many variables, it really is meaningless to make a blanket statement like "tires are more important than AWD."

It is also imprudent to claim that any 2WD vehicle with any snow tire is better than any AWD vehicle with any all season.  I can think of many combinations where'd I'd bet a lot (and I'm not a betting man) on the AWD vehicle.

This is coming from a big winter tire proponent as well, but the smartest thing to do is to fingure out what time of conditions you drive in most often, and then determine what capability suits your cost and performance requirements best.  The biggest problem is most people tend not to thoroughly educate themselves before pidgeon holing themselves in an expensive solution that was either overkill, or worse, completely lacking.

I was skeptical of the all season's that came on the Outback I just bought, but so far I haven't been able to get it stuck on a hill, stopped, in snow slightly deeper than the ground clearance of the car.

Really the best thing to do to educate yourself is to drive a little in conditions that are less then extreme and determine what you need based on that.  Unfortunately a lot of people are very blunt and unreceptive to their car's feedback or are poor drivers to begin with.


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> I will take my awd with at tires and run circles around any car with 2wd with snow tires.  They probaly had my mom in the awd vehicle and tony stewart with 2wd snow tires.


I will take that challenge. It isn't about "running circles" around other cars, it is about getting to the mountain safely. Make no doubt about it, AWD with snow tires trumps all and 2WD with snow tires still gets a little squirrely in the back end. But you couldn't talk me into AWD without snow tires over 2WD with snow tires in the winter.


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## riverc0il (Jan 4, 2008)

I agree with the suggestions, such as Marc's that not all conditions are the same and in some conditions AWD could easily trump 2WD with snows. But overall, for those doing a lot of snow travel, I think the snows are more important overall.For types that didn't drive during snow storms constantly during the winter, AWD without snows probably are fine, pending there is no over confidence in the AWD. I actually need reality checks with over confidence in my snows.


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## TC (Jan 4, 2008)

you can always try and buy a used pair of winter snows for cheep money. Get them mounted at a reasonable garage and there you go. I just bought a used set of 4 (one season) for $120.00. I thought it was a deal. Tires can be expensive, you have to watch ou that you dont over pay. Snow tires work great they give you that lateral traction and friction that you need if you get cought in a storm. Just keep your eye out. What size are you looking for?


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## deadheadskier (Jan 7, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I will take that challenge. It isn't about "running circles" around other cars, it is about getting to the mountain safely. Make no doubt about it, AWD with snow tires trumps all and 2WD with snow tires still gets a little squirrely in the back end. But you couldn't talk me into AWD without snow tires over 2WD with snow tires in the winter.




Agreed.  I drove a 2000 Audi A6 last winter with all seasons and while it wasn't horrible in the snow, it did not perform as well as front wheel drive cars I have had in the past with decent snow tires.


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## snoseek (Jan 7, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I will take that challenge. It isn't about "running circles" around other cars, it is about getting to the mountain safely. Make no doubt about it, AWD with snow tires trumps all and 2WD with snow tires still gets a little squirrely in the back end. But you couldn't talk me into AWD without snow tires over 2WD with snow tires in the winter.



You are sooo right. I drive a little civic with snows into the mountains almost every day, especially when its snowing, and have yet to have any problems. I used to have 4wd, but got rid of it because of the crappy mileage. I spent a grand total of 160$ for cheap snows at sam's and they get me through the most horrific driving conditions, as long as the road is open I'm good. I get well over 40 mpg, I will never own awd or 4wd again.


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## ALLSKIING (Jan 7, 2008)

Marc said:


> I was skeptical of the all season's that came on the Outback I just bought


Did you sell the Audi S4?


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 8, 2008)

i just picked up the Volvo XC70 (2008) and its got all season Conti 4x4 contacts.....I think i'm going to put some Conti Extremes on it...i have those on my Audi and they are a great tire!  (not a dedicated snow--dont need it here on LI)


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## billski (Jan 8, 2008)

mlctvt said:


> I agree with Riv on this one. Do yourself a favor and get a second set of rims with snow tires mounted.



I already did that last month for my wife's car.  I'm just not in the position to buy three sets of tires and two sets of rims all at once, as I originally described.  

My plan is to get some good all-weather tires right now for my all wheel drive and make it through this winter (I have done that for 25 years on front-wheel), then by winter tires next fall.  Spread out the cost.


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## tjf67 (Jan 8, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I will take that challenge. It isn't about "running circles" around other cars, it is about getting to the mountain safely. Make no doubt about it, AWD with snow tires trumps all and 2WD with snow tires still gets a little squirrely in the back end. But you couldn't talk me into AWD without snow tires over 2WD with snow tires in the winter.



Thanks dad.


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## billski (Jan 8, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I agree with the suggestions, such as Marc's that not all conditions are the same and in some conditions AWD could easily trump 2WD with snows. But overall, for those doing a lot of snow travel, I think the snows are more important overall.For types that didn't drive during snow storms constantly during the winter, AWD without snows probably are fine, pending there is no over confidence in the AWD. I actually need reality checks with over confidence in my snows.



I have driven frontwheel drive for 25 years on all-seasons and always gotten to/fro the mountain safely.  My new wheels are all wheel drive with all-season tires and I noticed a marked improvement in handling on snow.  I am not much of a "car person" but even pedestrian-me could notice the grip.  

The "squirlliness in back" that riverc describes is not there.  I suspect it's because the new car has stability control, which is purported to eliminate fish-tailing amongst other ailments.  It also has traction control, (another new feature for me) but I've not been in a wheel-stuck-spinning situation yet, so I've not experienced the downside (sometimes you need a little slip to "dig" for traction.)  These new features can be disabled from the dashboard.  

There is one very long, very steep hill at Stowe that a front wheel drive on 4-seasons cannot get up when snow-covered.  My friend says he's never bought snows for his subie in Stowe (he's has his priorities, ski pass first, tires and food second..)   In fact, the time my frontwheel got stuck, he walked back, got his subie and rescued us.  At that point, his tires were nearly bald, kid you not....
I'm really enjoying it so far.  Especially having back the heated seats which I had 10 years go and gave up last car.


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## X-Linked (Jan 8, 2008)

billski said:


> I picked up a used AWD sedan which now needs tires.  I can only buy one set of four tires at this time, so I'm thinking about some 4-season tires that can last until next winter, then get a set of winter tires at that time, to spread out the expense.
> 
> Any comments on ski-adventure-driving on 4-season tires on an AWD sedan?  My daily commute is 50 miles round trip on the highway.  I will be doing trips to the Green (Stowe, Bush, Mt. Snow, Middlebury, MRG) and White mountains, and usually drive only on plowed, but occasionally snow-packed roads.  Sometimes find myself in a storm for a few hours, though I usually wait it out or get there early, so it's only a few miles.
> 
> ...



I highly recommend Yokohama's All weather/4 season line of tires.  I have used many different tires and really liked them the best for all year.  I am sure continentals make good all season tires as well.  I would personally stay away from the racier tires (firestone, bridgestone, sumitomos)  If you don't mind waiting a couple days for delivery to have them bought a bit cheaper, you can always by Yokos, Conts, and Khumos (look at the ecstas) off of Tirerack.com rather cheaply.  Good luck.


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## riverc0il (Jan 8, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> Thanks dad.


Impressive argumentative and debating skills. Not a dad and only 29 years old but that is really beside the point of your ad hominem retort. I got a few amen's from other "dads" on the forum. :roll:


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## hammer (Jan 8, 2008)

How much does ground clearance factor in to getting around in the snow? I remember talking to a few people at the auto show about the Toyota Prius and they said that the car didn't have much ground clearance, which made it trickier to drive in the snow. Not that the ground clearance of a large SUV or Jeep is needed...


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## riverc0il (Jan 8, 2008)

hammer said:


> How much does ground clearance factor in to getting around in the snow? I remember talking to a few people at the auto show about the Toyota Prius and they said that the car didn't have much ground clearance, which made it trickier to drive in the snow. Not that the ground clearance of a large SUV or Jeep is needed...


Snow tires are more of an issue, IMO, in most conditions. Depends on the type of snow too. I have easily drove right through over half a foot (above my ground clearance on a small coupe) of very dense and heavy snow. More of a concern would be junk in the snow getting up in the under carriage. Certainly big snow totals would favor a higher ground clearance vehicle with snows, but below critical clearance levels, snows are more important as it won't matter that the higher ground clearance vehicles are above the snow if the tires are not gripping. How often do people need to drive through more than 6" of untouched snow aside from backing out of a parking space? Not really a factor for most drivers in my mind.


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## billski (Jan 9, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Snow tires are more of an issue, IMO, in most conditions. Depends on the type of snow too. I have easily drove right through over half a foot (above my ground clearance on a small coupe) of very dense and heavy snow. More of a concern would be junk in the snow getting up in the under carriage. Certainly big snow totals would favor a higher ground clearance vehicle with snows, but below critical clearance levels, snows are more important as it won't matter that the higher ground clearance vehicles are above the snow if the tires are not gripping. How often do people need to drive through more than 6" of untouched snow aside from backing out of a parking space? Not really a factor for most drivers in my mind.



Clearance becomes an issue in "sportier" cars, of which I have.  Lower profile tires, bigger wheels and suspension bring the car lower to the ground.  I've heard very bad reports of cars not handling well if you try to raise the height by going back to, let's say 16" tires.   

I agree that traction is the more important issue unless you are off-roading.  (Lots of people like to give the impression that's what they do, and never do.  Like the people with giganta-suv's in my town who's sole job is to shuttle muffy and buffy to school and pickup mass quantities of bread and milk for the "storm of the century" 

For me, clearance is pretty much a non-issue, since I almost always drive on plowed (or recently plowed) roads.

Interestingly, I'm starting to see more Prius up-country, I wonder how they are faring?


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## tjf67 (Jan 9, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Impressive argumentative and debating skills. Not a dad and only 29 years old but that is really beside the point of your ad hominem retort. I got a few amen's from other "dads" on the forum. :roll:



How do you want me to argue  the ridiculous statement you made.  I dont know I only drive 40k miles per year around the high peaks.  2wd with snow tires are no match for an awd with at tires period. to argue different is silly.
But hey that why snow tires sell, to each there own.  The only reason a person would drop to an 2wd and snow tires is for MPH not better handling.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> How do you want me to argue  the rediculous statement you made.  I dont know I only drive 40k miles per year around the high peaks.  2wd with snow tires are no match for an awd with at tires period. to argue different is silly.
> But hey that why snow tires sell, to each there own.  The only reason a person would drop to an 2wd and snow tires is for MPH not better handling.



I'll say it again, I drove a 2000 Audi A6 with AT tires on it last winter.  My 1982 Honda Accord with Nokia Hakapalitas (sp) got me through the snow better than the Audi.  AWD / 4WD doesn't help much unless your tires can actually grip the road.

So count me with river on this opinion.  Also count me with river that your 'thanks dad' comment was unecessary and juvenile.


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## X-Linked (Jan 9, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll say it again, I drove a 2000 Audi A6 with AT tires on it last winter.  My 1982 Honda Accord with Nokia Hakapalitas (sp) got me through the snow better than the Audi.  AWD / 4WD doesn't help much unless your tires can actually grip the road.
> 
> So count me with river on this opinion.  Also count me with river that your 'thanks dad' comment was unecessary and juvenile.



Bald tires will never get you anywhere in the snow or ice.  But, You're trying to tell me that the car that is best know for being the BEST driving/handling system ever in the AUDI (I have owned 2, plus Many many other cars) is not going to drive as well as your accord?  Let's put it this way.  I have never seen a Honda accord, or even a a crx civic in a Snow rally race.  EVER.  In a heat of about 12-16 cars there is ALWAYS 2-3 audis.  The only reason your Honda drove better than the audi, was you probably didn't have LP tires, but BALD tires.  You might as well be driving on street slicks if you're going to be doing that.


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## tjf67 (Jan 9, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll say it again, I drove a 2000 Audi A6 with AT tires on it last winter.  My 1982 Honda Accord with Nokia Hakapalitas (sp) got me through the snow better than the Audi.  AWD / 4WD doesn't help much unless your tires can actually grip the road.
> 
> So count me with river on this opinion.  Also count me with river that your 'thanks dad' comment was unecessary and juvenile.



First off the audi had all season tires on it not AT.     Second audi 4wd system is one of the best.  You sure it was not driver error.  I had an A4 that was one of the best vehicles i have ever had in the snow.  Was better than the my rover, wrangler and grand.  
I am thinking driver error on your part


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2008)

X-Linked said:


> Bald tires will never get you anywhere in the snow or ice.  But, You're trying to tell me that the car that is best know for being the BEST driving/handling system ever in the AUDI (I have owned 2, plus Many many other cars) is not going to drive as well as your accord?  Let's put it this way.  I have never seen a Honda accord, or even a a crx civic in a Snow rally race.  EVER.  In a heat of about 12-16 cars there is ALWAYS 2-3 audis.  The only reason your Honda drove better than the audi, was you probably didn't have LP tires, but BALD tires.  You might as well be driving on street slicks if you're going to be doing that.



I'm not saying that FWD is better than AWD in the snow.  I am saying that a FWD with snow tires can be just as capable and in some, not all, intances, better in snow driving conditions than an AWD.  This based on MY experience not others.  Perhaps the all seasons I had on the Audi weren't that great.  I'm no expert on tires, but when I bought the car, I got new tires and asked the shop to put new all seasons on it that offered the best snow performance.  These tires were BRAND NEW not BALD.

From MY experience, the Audi did pretty well in the snow, the back end wasn't as squirly as the Honda, BUT, the Honda with the Nokia's made it up steeper snow covered roads with greater ease and I ran into less problems with the car tracking around turns where as the Audi had a harder time catching grip and the car wanted to go straight.  

All of you AWD fans need to calm down a bit.  I've explained MY story and so from MY experience, I feel that tires matter more than the drive system.  As far as all the rally mumbo jumbo, I could care less.  I'm just looking to get to the mountain and this has been MY experience.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> First off the audi had all season tires on it not AT.     Second audi 4wd system is one of the best.  You sure it was not driver error.  I had an A4 that was one of the best vehicles i have ever had in the snow.  Was better than the my rover, wrangler and grand.
> I am thinking driver error on your part




Dude, I lived in Vermont for 11 out of 14 years between when I was 16 and age 30.  Trust me, I know how to drive in snow.  Since I got my license, these are the cars I've owned and what type of tires on them for winter and I'll rank them in order of what performed best

1988 Acura Legend with snows (2)
1988 VW Fox with snows (5) 
1982 Honda Accord with snows (1) - suprisingly better than the Acura I think due to manual transmission
1995 Ford Explorer with AT (3) - though the Explorer was #1 in deep snow
2000 Audi A6 with AS (4)
2007 Hyundai Sonata with AS (6)


I'm not thinking driver error on my part, I'm thinking arrogance on YOUR part.  As you see, I've driven all kinds of cars with all kinds of tires.  I've shared my experiences, I've got 16 years driving experience to base an opinion off of and I'll stick to it.  FWD with snows has treated me better than AWD or 4WD with all seasons / all terrain.  The only instace where that wasn't the case was the VW

I'm done arguing.  Why don't you AWD drivers go take your cars out to a rally race or something instead of beating it down our throats how YOU'RE right and I or river is wrong.  I'm not saying I'm right, you're wrong.  Just sharing my experiences and opinion gathered from them.


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## Marc (Jan 9, 2008)

Deadhead, tire width is another factor that comes into play, something no one else here has mentioned yet.  The A6 has WIDE tires, even for it's increased weight and by comparison your Honda had skinny ass tires.  The tire width to car weight ratio makes a difference driving in snow.  I suspect this is one of the reasons my Subie does very well in snow with all seasons.  Same weight as the S4 but has 195's rather than 225's.

Another point of order, most AWD systems today perform pretty close to the same, and are relatively invisible to the driver.  While I do think the Torsen center diff Audi uses is probably the least likely to fail, nearly all systems use the brakes to control traction and "guide" torque flow to the wheel with the most traction.

Annoying if you ask me.

I'd prefer an AWD system with no electronic aids and manually locking front, center and rear differentials.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2008)

good point on the tire width


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## Marc (Jan 9, 2008)

Other elements to the equation include engine power output and torque output curves, type of transmission, transmission gearing, final gearing, chassis weight distribution, total vehicle weight, suspension... there are probably some more I'm forgetting.

To add some more fuel to the fire, with a competent driver, I think a manual transmission will far outperform an automatic transmission in the snow, all else equal.  There have been a few times where I would have been very stuck if I didn't have the ability to select a higher gear manually.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2008)

Marc said:


> I think a manual transmission will far outperform an automatic transmission in the snow, all else equal.



Agreed and not just in snow.


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## Marc (Jan 9, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Agreed and not just in snow.



Good point, that qualifier was not necessary.


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## mlctvt (Jan 9, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> I will take my awd with at tires and run circles around any car with 2wd with snow tires.  They probaly had my mom in the awd vehicle and tony stewart with 2wd snow tires.



This simply is not true. You may think it does better. Read the article-  it scientifically measured performance . Aceleration, braking and skidpad numbers.

EDIT- Sorry I just saw you said AT tires, the article I mention compared ALL SEASON tires on AWD cars to the exact same car offered with 2WD and SNOW tires.


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## snoseek (Jan 9, 2008)

Disclaimer-this is only my uneducated opinion and experience but.....


20,000 dollars is a lot of money to pay for peice of mind I think. I won't argue that audi/subie/whatever are a great ride but if getting through the snow is the very sole purpose for buying one than it seems like a huge waste of money. Not trying to put down anyones ride, because if I had more money-I sure as $hit would upgrade from my civic.


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## Marc (Jan 9, 2008)

snoseek said:


> Disclaimer-this is only my uneducated opinion and experience but.....
> 
> 
> 20,000 dollars is a lot of money to pay for peice of mind I think. I won't argue that audi/subie/whatever are a great ride but if getting through the snow is the very sole purpose for buying one than it seems like a huge waste of money. Not trying to put down anyones ride, because if I had more money-I sure as $hit would upgrade from my civic.



<- Paid $7,000


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## riverc0il (Jan 9, 2008)

tjf67, it is cool, we are talking apples and oranges here. I am making my remarks in regards to snows versus all seasons. I have no experience with AT tires but I assume they bridge the gap between the two and probably give the edge to the AWD vehicle. FWIW, I plan to make my next vehicle a Subaru (with snow tires of course), so I am not arguing based on an anti-AWD platform, but rather from the perspective that people often make the wrong choices in regards to drive type and tire type compared to their needs. My needs are being a storm and powder day chaser and backcountry skier looking to access hairy unplowed roads with restrictive parking... FWD with snows gets the job done but still has its limits. My biggest point of contention is for the average skier and skiing family, AWD with all seasons makes them feel safer but is "often times" (not always, but more often than not, IMO) inferior to many FWD vehicles with snows. No experience with AT so I will defer to your judgment in that regard.


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## tjf67 (Jan 10, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> tjf67, it is cool, we are talking apples and oranges here. I am making my remarks in regards to snows versus all seasons. I have no experience with AT tires but I assume they bridge the gap between the two and probably give the edge to the AWD vehicle. FWIW, I plan to make my next vehicle a Subaru (with snow tires of course), so I am not arguing based on an anti-AWD platform, but rather from the perspective that people often make the wrong choices in regards to drive type and tire type compared to their needs. My needs are being a storm and powder day chaser and backcountry skier looking to access hairy unplowed roads with restrictive parking... FWD with snows gets the job done but still has its limits. My biggest point of contention is for the average skier and skiing family, AWD with all seasons makes them feel safer but is "often times" (not always, but more often than not, IMO) inferior to many FWD vehicles with snows. No experience with AT so I will defer to your judgment in that regard.




We were talking about two different types of tires.  AT are more for on road/off road.  An AT tire is not going to work as well as a snow tire on snow and ice but plenty sufficient for anything we see.  I have taken my truck up and over passes in the ADK on seasonal roads that are closed .  Fom Keene Valley over into Ausable if anyone is familiar with that road..  They have the Deep tread but the rubber is not as soft and the actual tread is not as aggressive.  The AT is better for highway and because the rubber is a little harder you dont get as much road noice or as much wear.
You are correct  about 2wd.  When My truck wears out I will switch to 2wd because of gas prices and most likely will get snows for a few months in the winter.


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## WJenness (Jan 10, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> (snip)
> 1988 Acura Legend with snows (2)
> 1988 VW Fox with snows (5)
> 1982 Honda Accord with snows (1) - suprisingly better than the Acura I think due to manual transmission
> ...



I'm not going to get into the tires debate other than to say this is my first winter with AWD (bought an 2004 A4 3.0Q M6 in May) and thus far, I love it...

But I am going to observe... From an A6 to a Hyundai Sonata? Ouch... I'm sorry man.

I can't see myself buying a non-Audi at this point.

I'm a fanboy... I admit it.

-w


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## koreshot (Jan 10, 2008)

I have owned 4 cars, fwd and awd and tried a few various brands of snow tires and my thinking about this topic has evolved to something like this.

AWD brings very little to the safety story.  It doesn't help you brake or turn any faster or any sharper when you are trying to avoid an accident, but it does let you accelerate and climb better in reduced traction situations like snow.

So for absolute snow driving safety - not getting into an accident or skidding off a road kind of duty:  FWD with snow tires is hands down, no questions asked, safer than an AWD car on non-snow tires.  Anyone that will argue that an AWD car with all season tires will brake and generate better lateral traction better than a FWD with snows is either dumb or very uniformed and you should have their head examined.

For dependable snow travel with lots of hills, steeps, deep snow and climbing:  AWD with a good set of all-seasons might be better than a snow tire FWD.

So then it becomes a balancing act - do you want basic point a to point b safe transportation in snow on average public roads, or will you need the car to climb a scary drive way or get you to work before the snow plows came out, even if it reduces emergency handling type of safety.

I chose the best of both worlds.  A medium size wagon with good ground clearance, a basic 4wd system and solid snow tires.  If I had to give AWD or snow tires up, I would give AWD up in a heartbeat.  Safety first... so what if I get to the ski hill a bit later.  At least I got there.


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## Marc (Jan 10, 2008)

While my good buddy kore makes a great point, and is the reason often see AWD and 4WD vehicles off the road because the idiot driver is clueless in this regard, don't over look the virtue of being able to accelerate to avoid an accident as well.  Perhaps not an overrulling factor, but it is at least a mitigating one...


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## tjf67 (Jan 10, 2008)

koreshot said:


> I have owned 4 cars, fwd and awd and tried a few various brands of snow tires and my thinking about this topic has evolved to something like this.
> 
> AWD brings very little to the safety story.  It doesn't help you brake or turn any faster or any sharper when you are trying to avoid an accident, but it does let you accelerate and climb better in reduced traction situations like snow.
> 
> ...



Dont snow tires perform horrible on dry pavement?


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2008)

*This is very strange...*

Every time I try to open this thread, this window keeps popping up:


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## tjf67 (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> Every time I try to open this thread, this window keeps popping up:




I kinda like talking about this stuff.  I learned a few things.  Not like when I watch your ski vids.


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## Marc (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> Every time I try to open this thread, this window keeps popping up:



Kore gets the same thing whenever he opens a thread about bump skiing.


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> I learned a few things.  Not like when I watch your ski vids.



Not surprising really. After all, you do primarily ski Iceface and we all know there are no bumps there...


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## tjf67 (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> Not surprising really. After all, you do primarily ski Iceface and we all know there are no bumps there...



Speaking of bumps I was out the last couple on nights on wilderness building bumps for the competitions comming to town. I think you call it seeding.  You should come up and try them out might be a little steeper than you are used to.


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> Speaking of bumps I was out the last couple on nights on wilderness building bumps for the competitions comming to town. I think you call it seeding.  You should come up and try them out might be a little steeper than you are used to.



I'm sure. I do suck at steep bumps. Working on it though. Are you competing?


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## tjf67 (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> I'm sure. I do suck at steep bumps. Working on it though. Are you competing?



In January, the scene changes to Whiteface and the Olympic Jumping Complex for three freestyle skiing events scheduled for Jan. 18-20. The International Ski Federation as well as the U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association will conduct World Cup moguls on the Wilderness trail at Whiteface Jan. 18 and 20, while aerial skiing will occur on Jan. 19 at the jumping site in Lake Placid. 

I think not.


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> I think not.



Oh. My bad. You speak with such authority on things, I assumed you were a pro. Sorry about that.


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## tjf67 (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> Oh. My bad. You speak with such authority on things, I assumed you were a pro. Sorry about that.



What you take as authority is probably just bad grammer. T
Lighten up francis


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## mlctvt (Jan 10, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> Dont snow tires perform horrible on dry pavement?



Not al of them. I recently installed a set of performance Dunlop wintersport M3 snow tires on my Legacy GT and they handle better than the crappy Bridgestone RE92s all-seasons that the car came with. This wasn't due to age either, the Bridgestones only had 6000 miles on them. Granted with the "performance" snows you give up a little in the deep snow but they're much better on dry roads.


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## koreshot (Jan 10, 2008)

tjf67 said:


> Dont snow tires perform horrible on dry pavement?


Most snow tires do suck on dry pavement.  This particularly the case for the heavy duty deep snow ones.  The blizzaks I have on right now certainly suck in the dry, livable but not very good.  But I have tried the Dunlop M3 and been really impressed with its dry pavement performance while still being very sure footed in snow.  Performance winter tires as pretty solid in the dry generally speaking.

Been hearing excellent things about the snow performance for the Conti Extreme contact.  A good compromise all season.  Will never be as good as a dedicate snow tire, but good middle ground.



Marc said:


> Kore gets the same thing whenever he opens a thread about bump skiing.



Amen. Although I do appreciate the skill involved.

Its like watching knitting... takes mad skill but boring as hell to watch.


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## Greg (Jan 10, 2008)

*What?!?*



koreshot said:


> Its like watching knitting... takes mad skill but boring as hell to watch.



Okay. Now you crossed the line. :???:

Boring as hell to watch?



Of course, that's not, nor ever will be representative of anyone that would ever appear in any of my cheesy little vids... :lol:



Back to your boring tire discussion...


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## koreshot (Jan 10, 2008)

Greg said:


> Okay. Now you crossed the line. :???:
> 
> Boring as hell to watch?
> 
> ...



Ok, that was pretty cool and probably is more fun than knitting.  I think those awesome airs were a big reason for that though... especially the second one.  Is it me or was that guy not spending a whole lot of time with his ski touching the snow?  I thought the basic principle of proper bump skiing is good ski to snow contact at all times.


Edit:  nevermind.  I watched it a few more times and actually there seems to be a lot of contact.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Jan 10, 2008)

I have the ContiExtremes on my Audi and they are fantastic...keep em on all year..next best thing to a dedicated snow tire...great dry traction (sucks to corners like glue) great in the rain....very happy with them .... this is my 2nd pair on the Audi


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## deadheadskier (Jan 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> I'm not going to get into the tires debate other than to say this is my first winter with AWD (bought an 2004 A4 3.0Q M6 in May) and thus far, I love it...
> 
> But I am going to observe... From an A6 to a Hyundai Sonata? Ouch... I'm sorry man.
> 
> ...




No ouch at all.  There are luxories in the Audi I certainly miss, but overall, I'll take the 2007 Sonata over the 2000 A6 anyday.  I'll give the Audi the edge in handling, but the Hyundai absolutely SMOKES the Audi in terms of off the line acceleration or passing speed, gets a solid 8 mpg better and is more spacious.

Now, I'd certainly take a 2007 Audi over the 2007 Sonata, perhaps even a 2004 Audi as well.  That all said, I can't afford a fifty thousand dollar car, which is what a new A6 runs.  Hell a 2004 A6 with 50K miles on it probably would've cost more than the Sonata new.

The big thing for me was value.  I wanted a new car with a solid reputation that I wasn't going to have to worry about for a long time.  The 10 year, 100K warranty did it for me.  I tested a Camry, Accord, Altima and the Sonata.  The Hyundai easily performed as well as the others and was four grand cheaper for the same features.

Audi's horrendous reputation for service issues after 100K miles lead me away from the brand.  Last October, I had 92,000 miles on it when ding, air bag light goes on and I hit a curb with a tire all in the same week.   I take it in and after the Audi dealership charges me $150 to diagnose the problem, I'm not it will be $1400 to replace the air bag computer, $650 for new tires AND I needed the control arms replaced, which was another $400.  $2450

Any of that crap (aside from tires) happens now, it's covered.

Audi is a great car, don't get me wrong, but they along with all other German vehicles are for rich people, which isn't me.

I'm sure I'll get an AWD car again, but it will be a Subaru when I do.


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## riverc0il (Jan 10, 2008)

Marc said:


> Kore gets the same thing whenever he opens a thread about bump skiing.


Win.


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## campgottagopee (Jan 10, 2008)

koreshot said:


> So for absolute snow driving safety - not getting into an accident or skidding off a road kind of duty:  FWD with snow tires is hands down, no questions asked, safer than an AWD car on non-snow tires.  Anyone that will argue that an AWD car with all season tires will brake and generate better lateral traction better than a FWD with snows is either dumb or very uniformed and you should have their head examined.



The only arguement that could be made, is that most AWD cars have VDC which would play a HUGE part in someone avoiding and accident or skidding off the road. Just sayin';-)


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## hammer (Jan 10, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> The only arguement that could be made, is that most AWD cars have VDC which would play a HUGE part in someone avoiding and accident or skidding off the road. Just sayin';-)


Don't a lot of 2WD cars also have VDC?


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## campgottagopee (Jan 10, 2008)

hammer said:


> Don't a lot of 2WD cars also have VDC?



Some do, but right now you'd find it in higher $$$ cars and most likely an option vs. standard equiptment. Soon it will be standard in most, but I think we're a few years away from that.


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## Marc (Jan 10, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Some do, but right now you'd find it in higher $$$ cars and most likely an option vs. standard equiptment. Soon it will be standard in most, but I think we're a few years away from that.



Four years to be exact.  At least in the US.  The NHTSA mandated all new cars sold will have to have some form of electronic stability control by 2012, and it will be phased in process starting with 50% of new cars next year.

In other words, NHTSA is saying, you're all to stupid too avoid accidents yourself, here's an electronic crutch whether you want it or not.  

At least in a lot of cars it comes in today there's the option to disable it.  Stupid NHTSA.


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## campgottagopee (Jan 11, 2008)

Marc said:


> Four years to be exact.  At least in the US.  The NHTSA mandated all new cars sold will have to have some form of electronic stability control by 2012, and it will be phased in process starting with 50% of new cars next year.
> 
> In other words, NHTSA is saying, you're all to stupid too avoid accidents yourself, here's an electronic crutch whether you want it or not.
> 
> At least in a lot of cars it comes in today there's the option to disable it.  Stupid NHTSA.



You're correct---2012 is the year.

I used to think that it was stupid as well until I went to the dealer meeting intoducing the new LLBean Outback (w/vdc). They had set up a slalom course on a HUGE (maybe 200 yds long) black poly tarp w/ water constantly running/spraying on it, which simulated icy driving conditions. We and a proffesional driver were able to drive thru with a Outback with out vdc and one with vdc. It truely was AMAZING to see and feel the difference in the car with VDC. It really is a HUGE safety feature in certain over/under steer situations. I think what was most amazing was being able to watch the car "snap" back into a "straight line" when the VDC activated. Being that it's a passive saftey feature IMHO NHTSA is doing us all a favor.

I wouldn't buy a car that didn't have the option to turn off the VDC. There are situations where turning it off are neccessary because you can not spin with that thing activated. If you were stuck, and needed to rock back and forth to get out, you would want VDC off.


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## Marc (Jan 11, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> You're correct---2012 is the year.
> 
> I used to think that it was stupid as well until I went to the dealer meeting intoducing the new LLBean Outback (w/vdc). They had set up a slalom course on a HUGE (maybe 200 yds long) black poly tarp w/ water constantly running/spraying on it, which simulated icy driving conditions. We and a proffesional driver were able to drive thru with a Outback with out vdc and one with vdc. It truely was AMAZING to see and feel the difference in the car with VDC. It really is a HUGE safety feature in certain over/under steer situations. I think what was most amazing was being able to watch the car "snap" back into a "straight line" when the VDC activated. Being that it's a passive saftey feature IMHO NHTSA is doing us all a favor.



I definitely won't argue its merits in certain situations, beyond the fact that, in my S4, it caused me to drive faster than I probably should have been driving in low traction conditions.  In that regard, you have to wonder how much safer it will make the roads for everyone.



campgottagopee said:


> I wouldn't buy a car that didn't have the option to turn off the VDC. There are situations where turning it off are neccessary because you can not spin with that thing activated. If you were stuck, and needed to rock back and forth to get out, you would want VDC off.



This is my big fear.  That it might be hard to find cars in the future without an option to disable it.


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## campgottagopee (Jan 11, 2008)

Marc said:


> I definitely won't argue its merits in certain situations, beyond the fact that, in my S4, it caused me to drive faster than I probably should have been driving in low traction conditions.  In that regard, you have to wonder how much safer it will make the roads for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> This is my big fear.  That it might be hard to find cars in the future without an option to disable it.



I hear ya about driving too fast--that's the reason I don't ride sport bikes anymore. I JUST CAN"T RIDE THEM SLOW!!!!!! 

I would think the majority would have an option to turn off. All my stuff does, but you never know.


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## Marc (Jan 11, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> I hear ya about driving too fast--that's the reason I don't ride sport bikes anymore. I JUST CAN"T RIDE THEM SLOW!!!!!!
> 
> I would think the majority would have an option to turn off. All my stuff does, but you never know.



Well, my fear stems from the fact that once air bags were mandated, it took an act of God to get the NHTSA to recognize there was a need to be able to disable those things.  But, I haven't read the wording in the law so I guess I wouldn't know for sure unless I did that.  If I stay on my current car buying habits though, I won't really have to worry about it until 2019 anyway.


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## billski (Jan 11, 2008)

The early adopter cars (I have an Audi) have a VSC shutoff in them.  I've been driving with stability control since last March and it is nice.   As I get older and not as responsive as I once was, I am more appreciative of things like this.

I worry that the same idiots that think they are invincible with 4wd/awd will think the same thing when VSC is in their vehicle.


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## OppositeGeorge (Jan 11, 2008)

My alpha-version Outback VDC (2001 MY) doesn't have a switch to turn VDC off.  Still, I'm not rallying so that's probably okay.  Being able to pull onto the road (carefully!) without worrying about fishtailing helps me stay focused on the big picture.

It wouldn't be that hard for anybody with even a passing acquaintance with electronics to install a switch that would throw a fault and disable VDC or VDC and ABS, if it was that big a deal.  Even pulling a fuse might be enough.  Probably invalidate your insurance if you got in an accident with it turned off, though, so don't try this at home.


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## Marc (Jan 11, 2008)

OppositeGeorge said:


> My alpha-version Outback VDC (2001 MY) doesn't have a switch to turn VDC off.  Still, I'm not rallying so that's probably okay.  Being able to pull onto the road (carefully!) without worrying about fishtailing helps me stay focused on the big picture.
> 
> It wouldn't be that hard for anybody with even a passing acquaintance with electronics to install a switch that would throw a fault and disable VDC or VDC and ABS, if it was that big a deal.  Even pulling a fuse might be enough.  Probably invalidate your insurance if you got in an accident with it turned off, though, so don't try this at home.



That and your warranty.  Not a realistic or desirable option for me.


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## OppositeGeorge (Jan 11, 2008)

Yeah, good point.  My warranty days on that car are well behind me (202,000 and counting...)


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## deadheadskier (Jan 11, 2008)

Doubt my opinion will change regarding tires verse drive system, but I have a new vehicle to further sway my opinion one way or the other.

My company upgraded me from vehicle expense stipend, to actual vehicle.  I rolled back to the hotel in Jersey tonight in my new wheels and head back to Maine tomorrow in it.

2004 Subaro Legacy Wagon is the new whip.  I've only driven it about ten miles so far and can already tell I'm gonna miss the Hyundai's V6, but it's a great deal overall.  The girlfriend gets to sell her 2000 VW Jetta and roll in my Hyundai, why I get a vehicle with zero expense; gas, tolls, maintenance are all off my tab.  

The only bummer in it all is I have to drive around in a vehicle with Jersey plates on it.  Call me Joey


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## Marc (Jan 11, 2008)

Wow.... that makes you as sucky as koreshot or andyzee.  Tough break man.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 12, 2008)

Marc said:


> Wow.... that makes you as sucky as koreshot or andyzee.  Tough break man.




Tell me about it.  The Moose back home are surely sharpening their horns, ready to aim them at me


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