# Hybrid quandry



## noski (Jul 13, 2009)

I am ready to trade cars, and have narrowed down to 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid or Ford Escape hybrid. The family discount is too good to pass up on Ford- so I am not really interested in changing manufacturers. I have found nothing negative about the Fusion online. I have driven Fords for 30 years so am happy there.

I test drove both vehicles and love the sedan ride of Fusion, versus the quasi SUV feel of the Escape. I have an Escape now and it's 'ok'- not my favorite vehicle to date- gas mileage stinks for my type of driving (climb/descent) and only 4 miles to work, more city-like driving, little highway. 

Quandry is this- do I stick with/settle for the AWD of the Escape for my drive up 3miles of dirt road in the MRV, or do I get agressive tires for the sweet Fusion and muscle my way up the hill?  We have a 4wd full size pickup, so I could get a ride to/from work on bad snow/mud days. I drove a Ford Taurus for 6 years with Blizzaks and made it every time. The Fusion sits about 1.5 inches higher than the Taurus, so clearance is decent. 41mpg 'city' and 35 highway mpg.  The Escape is less but still very good.

Does anyone know anyone with the Escape hybrid? Fusion hybrid?


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## RootDKJ (Jul 13, 2009)

I have the Escape Hybrid AWD. Love it. I get 32-34 mpg in the spring, summer and fall. Winter drops down to 28.


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## snoseek (Jul 13, 2009)

I don't know anyone but I personally would get the car without thinking twice.


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## mondeo (Jul 13, 2009)

AWD Fusion? I'd think its mileage would be comparable to the Escape.


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## noski (Jul 13, 2009)

Fusion is 41 city/36 hwy, Escape is 34 city/31 hwy. Though we all know the numbers wobble a bit in real life....


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## RootDKJ (Jul 13, 2009)

noski said:


> Fusion is 41 city/36 hwy, Escape is 34 city/31 hwy. Though we all know the numbers wobble a bit in real life....


I can get (at 64mph) 
32 - 35 hwy. City (driving in such a manner to keep on battery) I can see around 34 - 38.


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## riverc0il (Jul 13, 2009)

I would take snow tires over AWD any day of the week. Obviously snows and AWD trumps all. 10 MPG difference is 25% so think of the money savings of the sedan over time. If you don't need the SUV for storage, family, gear, pets, etc. I would get the Fusion with snows. Though I am biased against SUVs (but I think they have a place for the right person/family) so take what I would do with a grain of salt.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 13, 2009)

One more reason why I love my hybrid...it's super quiet...at first it's a little weird, but now I love it.  In fact, it feels weird being in a normal car sitting at a red light with all the noise and vibration.


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## Johnskiismore (Jul 13, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> One more reason why I love my hybrid...it's super quiet...at first it's a little weird, but now I love it.  In fact, it feels weird being in a normal car sitting at a red light with all the noise and vibration.



When I'm riding in my friends hybrid it is so weird, more than once I've asked if the car was on


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## deadheadskier (Jul 13, 2009)

The standard gas version of the Fusion is available in AWD.  Is AWD not available with the hybrid engine on the Fusion?  Are there any AWD sedans on the road offering a hybrid engine?  I'm only aware of two SUV models; the Lexus RX300 and the Escape, maybe Toyata Hylander as well?

I suppose the line of thinking is that most hybrids are really only beneficial in city driving conditions.  Most people who desire AWD do so for rural driving.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jul 13, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> One more reason why I love my hybrid...it's super quiet...at first it's a little weird, but now I love it.  In fact, it feels weird being in a normal car sitting at a red light with all the noise and vibration.



My store owner drives a Nissan Altima Hybrid.  Earlier this year I had to drive it to the airport and pick him up from his vacation(driving bosses personal car is scary).  When I got in the car I struggled to get going.  Nothing indicated that it was working after starting the vehicle(it does not have a ignition, only a button, with the key in range).  I must have started it and shut it down a half dozen times before I decided to just put it in drive.  Then driving was really weird only hearing the tires turning on the road.

As far as hybrids go, I think they are a waste.  Take the Escape for example.
Non hybrid- $24,120   Avg. Mpg-26
Hybrid-       $32,120   Avg. Mpg-31.5

At a $8,000 difference between the two, you can buy alot of gas.  At $2.70(my prices) that is 2963 gallons.  That is the first 77,038 miles without paying for a single gallon of gas. 
I am not sure exactly how to figure out how many miles you need to drive to equal out the break even for the hybrid, but it is going to be alot.


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## snoseek (Jul 14, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Most people who desire AWD do so for rural driving.



I see more little shitboxes in rural areas and way more Subarus/SUV/ect..... in suburbia. Just my observation.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2009)

Hawkshot99 said:


> My store owner drives a Nissan Altima Hybrid.  Earlier this year I had to drive it to the airport and pick him up from his vacation(driving bosses personal car is scary).  When I got in the car I struggled to get going.  Nothing indicated that it was working after starting the vehicle(it does not have a ignition, only a button, with the key in range).  I must have started it and shut it down a half dozen times before I decided to just put it in drive.  Then driving was really weird only hearing the tires turning on the road.
> 
> As far as hybrids go, I think they are a waste.  Take the Escape for example.
> Non hybrid- $24,120   Avg. Mpg-26
> ...



Probably depends a lot on the driver/conditions in regards to how much is saved.  Also some might have a preference for paying extra 'up front' and realizing a savings over time at the pump, by not having to hit up the gas station as much.  And I'm sure plenty of people buy them as they feel it is the environmentally responsible thing to do.   That last point is fairly hotly debated.  I've heard arguments from a carbon stand point that a Prius is actually worse for the environment than a Hummer because of what is required to produce the battery and ship it around the world; though I don't know how much truth there is to that.


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## Marc (Jul 14, 2009)

If your daily commute involves a lot of slow speed elevation change, and driveline efficiency is comparable, look closely at the vehicle weight for fuel efficiency.


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## Glenn (Jul 14, 2009)

I'd do a cost/benefit analysis before plunking my money down on a hybrid. Take the average mileage of both vehicles...figure how many miles you drive a year and get the number of gallons of gasoline used. Start crunching numbers with gas prices: $2 a gallon, $2.50, $3.00 ect. Get the difference is gasoline price per year per vehicle. Now, take the difference in cost between hybrid and regular model. See how long the "savings" in gas will take to pay for the higher aquisition cost of the hybrid.


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## Philpug (Jul 14, 2009)

Todays Hybrids are "feel good technology", what we have now is not what we will see in 5 years or so, there are better systems coming down the road. What that then means, what we have now will depreciate quickly, due to outdated technology and high cost of replacement parts i.e. battery. If you want proven technology and high mileage, look to a diesel like a Jetta.


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## riverc0il (Jul 14, 2009)

Philpug said:


> Todays Hybrids are "feel good technology", what we have now is not what we will see in 5 years or so, there are better systems coming down the road. What that then means, what we have now will depreciate quickly, due to outdated technology and high cost of replacement parts i.e. battery. If you want proven technology and high mileage, look to a diesel like a Jetta.


LOL. The funny thing is I can get 40+ MPG on my Saturn SC2 Coupe that runs on plain old 89 octane. Tech in 5 years? How about tech 20 years ago? CR-X did better than most hybrids of today. If we have only come so far as to be touting 40 MPG hybrids and diesels (granted, slightly bigger engines), I question what the future has to offer. I think the replacement parts is the best argument for the diesel (which I would take over a hybrid). Though I can't imagine waiting for anything better in the near future.

If you extrapolate current gas costs, I don't think hybrids are a very good buy at the present moment. Though it might be a good hedge on increasing gas prices as cheap gas is going to run out sooner rather than later.


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## noski (Jul 14, 2009)

My driving is roughly 13,500 per year. About 2/3 of that is climb/descent twice daily, then around-town type of driving (stop/go). My 06 Escape gets about 17mpg with that type of driving. I am strongly leaning to the Fusion (no, the hybrid does not come in AWD). I have to make the deal in the next 30 days as I have a lease now that is up 8/16, and am going to buy this time around instead.


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## mondeo (Jul 14, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> LOL. The funny thing is I can get 40+ MPG on my Saturn SC2 Coupe that runs on plain old 89 octane. Tech in 5 years? How about tech 20 years ago? CR-X did better than most hybrids of today. If we have only come so far as to be touting 40 MPG hybrids and diesels (granted, slightly bigger engines), I question what the future has to offer. I think the replacement parts is the best argument for the diesel (which I would take over a hybrid). Though I can't imagine waiting for anything better in the near future.


Over the last 20 years, technology has improved significantly, but the economics of vehicle sales have dictated features and safety. 20 years ago, no airbags, there were still plenty of cars without power windows, locks, and A/C, side impact protection, ABS, etc. During the same time, gas prices stayed low, so nobody cared about mileage. In the next couple years gas prices will rise to at least $6/gallon, fundamentally shifting the focus for carmakers. Right now hybrids are environmental statements (dubious at that,) but overall mileage will be significantly better in 5-10 years.

Heck, once the aviation industry starts really gearing up use of carbon, we might even see carbon fiber in relatively low-end passenger vehicles.


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## Glenn (Jul 14, 2009)

mondeo said:
			
		

> Right now hybrids are environmental statements (dubious at that,)


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## mondeo (Jul 14, 2009)

Glenn said:


>


I fear there's a smug cloud cover forming over the entire U.S. as we speak, strongest in San Francisco and VT. Let's just hope George Clooney doesn't win any more Oscars. Or Al Gore, for that matter.


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## riverc0il (Jul 14, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I fear there's a smug cloud cover forming over the entire U.S. as we speak, strongest in San Francisco and VT. Let's just hope George Clooney doesn't win any more Oscars. Or Al Gore, for that matter.


I'll disagree on the statement about Al Gore, but I complete agree about hybrids being "statements" for the most part. They don't add up financially based on the current market so buying one is a bet with the timeline of gas prices. Also, they only really benefit city drivers since the gas motor kicks in at highway speeds.


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## mondeo (Jul 14, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> I'll disagree on the statement about Al Gore, but I complete agree about hybrids being "statements" for the most part. They don't add up financially based on the current market so buying one is a bet with the timeline of gas prices. Also, they only really benefit city drivers since the gas motor kicks in at highway speeds.


Did you get the South Park reference?


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## riverc0il (Jul 14, 2009)

Nah. Don't have TV.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> Also, they only really benefit city drivers since the gas motor kicks in at highway speeds.


I get roughly the same when I limit my highway speed to 64mph.  The way the cops have been ticketing folks in Jersey lately...this is not a bad way to drive.


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## mondeo (Jul 14, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I get roughly the same when I limit my highway speed to 64mph.  The way the cops have been ticketing folks in Jersey lately...this is not a bad way to drive.


But the hybrid has nothing to do with it.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2009)

mondeo said:


> But the hybrid has nothing to do with it.


huh?


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> huh?



I believe he's suggesting you would achieve the same mileage in a gas powered Escape at 64 mph as the Hybrid.  Theoretically that would make sense as doesn't the electric motor disengage after 35 mph on most Hybrids such that it can recharge?


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## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I believe he's suggesting you would achieve the same mileage in a gas powered Escape at 64 mph as the Hybrid.  Theoretically that would make sense as doesn't the electric motor disengage after 35 mph on most Hybrids such that it can recharge?


The gas motor turns on at 40mph, but that doesn't mean that you don't still get an assist from the electric motor when accelerating.


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## mondeo (Jul 14, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> huh?


The only thing the hybrid system does is recover energy during braking. On the highway, you don't brake. Therefore the reason you get the same mileage at 64 on the highway as you do in the city is that that's the point where the inherently more efficient driving style matches with the energy recovery of the hybrid.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2009)

mondeo said:


> The only thing the hybrid system does is recover energy during braking. On the highway, you don't brake. Therefore the reason you get the same mileage at 64 on the highway as you do in the city is that that's the point where the inherently more efficient driving style matches with the energy recovery of the hybrid.


The gauges tell me that I get an (brief) assist when accelerating at highway speeds.

And have you seen the traffic in Jersey?  I've done 30-40 mile stretches of highway mostly under 45.


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## mondeo (Jul 14, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> And have you seen the traffic in Jersey?  I've done 30-40 mile stretches of highway mostly under 45.


There is that, but then that's not really highway driving. Highway driving is relatively constant speed. The brief assist you get while accelerating counts for nothing because all your gas is going to counteract mechanical losses and drag, not add kinetic energy.

It takes about 30 hp to keep a car going 70ish mph. 30hp=23KW. 3600lb car=1500kg, at 62.5mph=100kph, gives 580KJ. 580/23=25s. So in less than 30 seconds you've equalled the amount of energy put into the car through mechanical and aerodynamic losses.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 14, 2009)

mondeo said:


> There is that, but then that's not really highway driving. Highway driving is relatively constant speed. The brief assist you get while accelerating counts for nothing because all your gas is going to counteract mechanical losses and drag, not add kinetic energy.
> 
> It takes about 30 hp to keep a car going 70ish mph. 30hp=23KW. 3600lb car=1500kg, at 62.5mph=100kph, gives 580KJ. 580/23=25s. So in less than 30 seconds you've equalled the amount of energy put into the car through mechanical and aerodynamic losses.


I should fore warn you that I drank and smoked a lot in physics class.  

I've seen the avg mpg shoot up into the mid 40's in traffic jams. 

All things considered, I'm glad I have a hybrid, but, depending on how much and where you drive, it doesn't make financial sense with gas in the $2 range.  At $4+ it makes much more sense.

I didn't pay for mine, but for the quiet factor, and the geek factor, I'd consider getting one again.


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## noski (Jul 15, 2009)

I have actually found this thread fascinating. Keep on if you like. I will dig up this thread in a few weeks and post my choice. I do know the Fusion gas kicks in at about 48mph. My battery regen will happen on my descent from 1800' to 800' daily and my around-town- driving.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2009)

Wow 48mph is awesome!  I like the styling on the Fusion, but need the space in the Escape for hauling stuff around.


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## Geoff (Jul 15, 2009)

Philpug said:


> Todays Hybrids are "feel good technology", what we have now is not what we will see in 5 years or so, there are better systems coming down the road. What that then means, what we have now will depreciate quickly, due to outdated technology and high cost of replacement parts i.e. battery. If you want proven technology and high mileage, look to a diesel like a Jetta.



I'm not convinced that I'd want to be driving a diesel in January in the Mad River Valley.  Maybe with a heated garage...


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## noski (Jul 15, 2009)

Geoff said:


> I'm not convinced that I'd want to be driving a diesel in January in the Mad River Valley.  Maybe with a heated garage...



They cut the diesel here in cold weather, so it is generally not a problem, but good point! Mr. noski does plug his truck in on the coldest nights though (gmc 3/4 ton, diesel).


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## bigbog (Jul 15, 2009)

*........*



mondeo said:


> There is that, but then that's not really highway driving. Highway driving is relatively constant speed.



For a lot of people in this country, that's the majority of the type of highway driving they do..    Not out to make some major point, but I think speed is _The_ factor when it comes to hybrids vs compact-gas_only.  ...But as you and others have said, right now...price sure IS a factor.


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2009)

bigbog said:


> Huh??  How much've you been smokin' mondeo?..  For a lot of people in this country, that's the majority of the type of highway driving they do..  Not out to make some major point, but I think speed is _The_ factor when it comes to hybrids.



I think mondeo's point is, from an automotive standpoint, there is a distinction between "highway driving" and "city driving" out of convenience to deliniate two ends of the spectrum.  Highway driving is typically thought of as driving at a constant and usually elevated speed.  City driving is usually stop and go, or at least containing lots of speed changes.

The two terms, when used in this context, do not necessarily imply driving on one type of roadway or another, merely to differentiate between consistent and inconsistent speeds, since this has the biggest affect on gas mileage.

This is generally how the terms are regarded by the EPA, as well.


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## bigbog (Jul 15, 2009)

*....*

No ski...
Depends on what anyone means when they say "rough terrain"!;-)   If you don't work outside of society's grooming of the roads the only reason for a SUV is for cargo...imho.  
Can you work on your pickup!...and tweak it...to keep it healthy to do the rougher terrain stuff for you?

Completely agree about the noise factor from the higher driver's seat!;-)..I have an older 92' Accord...the low sitting things, makes it seem like I'm traveling F1-style...actually a fun ride on occasion...except for when you get into traffic;-).
*Problem is...many cars could do a lot more work, but their body-design and city-style of tires can sometimes make it a little dicey...ie rough on the hardware..  As others have attested to...a small car, with proper tires and weight dist. and "enough" clearance can do a lot..


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## Glenn (Jul 15, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I fear there's a smug cloud cover forming over the entire U.S. as we speak, strongest in San Francisco and VT. Let's just hope George Clooney doesn't win any more Oscars. Or Al Gore, for that matter.



VT is interesting. 6 houses or so down from me is a guy with a Z-28, with a loud aftermarket exhaust and about 4 old pickups in various state of repair around his property. 3 houses up, a left leaning lesbian couple complete with the Subuaru and rainbow stickers. But there certainly is a lot of smug in our local area.


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## Marc (Jul 15, 2009)

You forgot to tell us if they are lipstick lesbians or not.


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## Glenn (Jul 15, 2009)

Marc said:


> You forgot to tell us if they are lipstick lesbians or not.



We've yet to meet them. But based on the short hair and lack of makeup, I'd say more of the flannel and work boots type.


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## noski (Jul 15, 2009)

bigbog said:


> No ski...
> Depends on what anyone means when they say "rough terrain"!;-)   If you don't work outside of society's grooming of the roads the only reason for a SUV is for cargo...imho.
> Can you work on your pickup!...and tweak it...to keep it healthy to do the rougher terrain stuff for you?
> 
> ...



Our pickup is for Mr. noski- it's still fairly new, and he could take me to work/pick me up on the bad days. My 06 Escape is a lease that is up. My 'rough terrain' drive is one of Fayston throughway's- Center Fayston Rd/Kew Vasseur Rd, for those who know MRV, but it's a gravel road that goes from Rt 100's 800' elevation to 1750' in under 3 miles, so a steady grade, with some sections much steeper than others. Kids are grown (one gone one has his own wheels), so no need to lug much around. 

There are many times I am grateful for my gravel road and feel bad for those who have to travel the Interstate....


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## ckofer (Jul 15, 2009)

Question about hybrids: I feel that they are a better city vehicle for environmental reasons but want to know something. If you were stuck downtown Boston, NYC, Hartford etc on a hot summer day and running AC, would you need the gas engine soon to run that system? I could google this but thought I would go right to the experts.


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## Edd (Jul 15, 2009)

The hybrid thing is on my brain lately too.  My 02 Legacy has 145,000 on it.  It's very reliable but all cars start to die so I'm looking at options while it still runs well.

My first impulse is to get an Outback or Forester, probably a 2009 since the 2010s are right around the corner and good deals on 09s should be out there.

However, if truly widespread hybrid technology is around the corner, how much would a conventional gas car, purchased today, be worth in 4-5 years?  I don't have a crystal ball but I'm wondering if a Prius with snow tires makes more sense.


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## noski (Jul 15, 2009)

Edd said:


> I don't have a crystal ball but I'm wondering if a Prius with snow tires makes more sense.



I would vote against that. One of my MRV neighbors (an exec at Seventh Generation- so green is his middle name) is very sorry he got a prius. He hates it in winter. He said on one trip down our gravel hill he started sliding (a normal experience) and the car all but shut down- the normal steer into the skid/punch gas etc. didn't work. My in-laws have a Prius and after a good soaking rain, couldn't make it up our driveway- in May! I don't think the Prius has enough pep-and-heft for our type of winter driving. Maybe in the city.....


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## mondeo (Jul 15, 2009)

ckofer said:


> Question about hybrids: I feel that they are a better city vehicle for environmental reasons but want to know something. If you were stuck downtown Boston, NYC, Hartford etc on a hot summer day and running AC, would you need the gas engine soon to run that system? I could google this but thought I would go right to the experts.


Eventually, yes. The battery is kept between 30% and 80% charged. Once you hit the 30%, you're on the engine. As much as I enjoy doing some simple calculations with values that I can guess at pretty readily (like the acceleration vs cruising energy one,) I'd go to Google myself to figure out how long in practice.


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## mondeo (Jul 15, 2009)

Edd said:


> However, if truly widespread hybrid technology is around the corner, how much would a conventional gas car, purchased today, be worth in 4-5 years? I don't have a crystal ball but I'm wondering if a Prius with snow tires makes more sense.


Before or after the battery pack is replaced? All other maintenance costs are probably relatively equal, and when it comes down to it there really isn't that big a difference in mileage.


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## Edd (Jul 15, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Before or after the battery pack is replaced? All other maintenance costs are probably relatively equal, and when it comes down to it there really isn't that big a difference in mileage.



Well....a Prius is rated for 48mpg while a 2009 Outback (around the same size) is rated for 26mpg highway.  I'm calling that a big difference.


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## Edd (Jul 15, 2009)

noski said:


> I would vote against that. One of my MRV neighbors (an exec at Seventh Generation- so green is his middle name) is very sorry he got a prius. He hates it in winter. He said on one trip down our gravel hill he started sliding (a normal experience) and the car all but shut down- the normal steer into the skid/punch gas etc. didn't work. My in-laws have a Prius and after a good soaking rain, couldn't make it up our driveway- in May! I don't think the Prius has enough pep-and-heft for our type of winter driving. Maybe in the city.....



That story rings true to me, unfortunately.  I test drove a Prius 2 years ago, and the driving experience fell below my low expectations.

Did your neighbor have snow tires on that Prius?


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## RootDKJ (Jul 15, 2009)

ckofer said:


> Question about hybrids: I feel that they are a better city vehicle for environmental reasons but want to know something. If you were stuck downtown Boston, NYC, Hartford etc on a hot summer day and running AC, would you need the gas engine soon to run that system? I could google this but thought I would go right to the experts.


At least in the two Ford Escape's I've driven, yes.  The AC compressor is dependent on the gas engine to run.  The circulation system is not.


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## mondeo (Jul 15, 2009)

Edd said:


> Well....a Prius is rated for 48mpg while a 2009 Outback (around the same size) is rated for 26mpg highway.  I'm calling that a big difference.


Yep, all those AWD Prii out there...


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## Hawkshot99 (Jul 15, 2009)

Edd said:


> Well....a Prius is rated for 48mpg while a 2009 Outback (around the same size) is rated for 26mpg highway.  I'm calling that a big difference.



They are slightly different cars to be comparing.


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## Edd (Jul 15, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Yep, all those AWD Prii out there...



Exactly, hence my remark about snow tires.  I've got zero experience with them but if you believe folks like Rivercoil, they beat AWD.  Assuming that's true, those mileage stats take on a greater significance.

It seems clear some hybrid models are more effective than others.  The difference between the standard Honda Civic and the hybrid is shown here:  http://www.cars.com/go/compare/modelCompare.jsp?myids=10584,10590


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## riverc0il (Jul 15, 2009)

Edd said:


> Exactly, hence my remark about snow tires.  I've got zero experience with them but if you believe folks like Rivercoil, they beat AWD.  Assuming that's true, those mileage stats take on a greater significance.
> 
> It seems clear some hybrid models are more effective than others.  The difference between the standard Honda Civic and the hybrid is shown here:  http://www.cars.com/go/compare/modelCompare.jsp?myids=10584,10590


I get a little flip in my remarks about snow tires versus AWD. For me, I will always have snow tires on my car in the winter, AWD or not. That said, I would indeed take snows without AWD rather than AWD without snows.

Any ways, you could save yourself $10k+ and simply get a cheap economy car that gets 35-40 MPG highway and that has less repair costs. True, you'll make up some money with a Prius but you'll never make even close to enough money back to make it worth the hassle.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jul 16, 2009)

the new fusion is supposed to be really great.  if you don't "need" the utility of the escape, then go with the fusion.  a nice ride.

regarding the idea of hybrids, they may not always pay back the owner quickly in terms of monetary savings (especially at low-ish gas prices), but, there's no disputing that they use less gas and pollute less, so that's a good thing.  also, i think you'll tend to see gas prices go up rather than down.  once the ecoonomy gets going again, the price of oil will surely go up and the hybrid car calculation will look better.


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## mondeo (Jul 16, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> ...but, there's no disputing that they use less gas and pollute less, so that's a good thing.


But that is the dispute. There is a definate increase in the amount of energy it takes to make a hybrid; some analyses come out in favor of a Hummer over a Prius when you look at life cycle energy consumption. I don't necessarily believe them 100%, but there's a definate up front pollution cost associated with hybrids, and again with battery disposal.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jul 16, 2009)

mondeo said:


> But that is the dispute. There is a definate increase in the amount of energy it takes to make a hybrid; some analyses come out in favor of a Hummer over a Prius when you look at life cycle energy consumption. I don't necessarily believe them 100%, but there's a definate up front pollution cost associated with hybrids, and again with battery disposal.





do you have links to a study like that?  i'm not saying it's not true, but hybrids do make use of much smaller engines, which should take a corresponding less amount of energy to produce.

regarding the "total energy consumed" point, it might take more units of energy to make a hybrid car, but the type of energy is important.  you can make an argument that even if it takes more total energy to construct and run the hybrid than a conventional car, the fact that the hybrid uses less oil to run (and more of, say, coal?) to construct, is better from a pollution standpoint (don't know if that's true) and energy independence standpoint (that should be true).


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## Glenn (Jul 16, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> do you have links to a study like that?  i'm not saying it's not true, but hybrids do make use of much smaller engines, which should take a corresponding less amount of energy to produce.
> 
> regarding the "total energy consumed" point, it might take more units of energy to make a hybrid car, but the type of energy is important.  you can make an argument that even if it takes more total energy to construct and run the hybrid than a conventional car, the fact that the hybrid uses less oil to run (and more of, say, coal?) to construct, is better from a pollution standpoint (don't know if that's true) and energy independence standpoint (that should be true).




That fact that you're making a smaller engine is true...but that car has two drive systems...a gasoline engine and an electric motor. When you're done slapping that thing together, I'm sure it takes just as much, if no more resources than your standard car. Oh, and let's not forget the number of batteries in that thing either. 

If you're current car is on it's last legs and you plan on keeping your potential new hybrid for 10 to 15 years...then it makes sense...sorta. 

If your current car is fine and you're getting a hybrid to...well, to get a hybrid, than that's somewhat of a waste. I personally can't justify myself getting rid of a perfectly good working vehicle; but that's just me. 

If you look at that link that posted...showing the difference between the gasoline Civic in and the Hybrid. 

The gasoline car will average (equal mix of city and highway calculated for ease of math) 28mpg. The hybrid will get 42.5 MPG. "Holly Steezeasaurus! Hybrid! Get it!" 

at 12k miles per year: Gasoline- 428.5 gallons, Hybrid 282 gallons. 

Cost at $2.50: $1,071.25 gasoline, $705        Difference: $366.25. So that's you're gas savings. 

Lets say you went for the most fuel efficient gasoline Civic, which I'm going to assume is the base model...with the least amount of options and probably a manual. $15,305  the hybrid costs: $23,650 Difference: $8,345. It'll take you 22 years to break even. 

"But what if gas goes up!" 

$5 a gallon: 
Gasoline: $2,142.5
Hybrid: $1,410

Difference: $732. Payout...10+ years. 

I'm convinced people never calculate things out like this. Even when gas went crazy last summer, people were Henny Pennying around, ditching perfectly good larger vehicles for smaller ones. This was further exasperated by our very reliable friends: Supply and Demand. Demand for small cars went up, big cars went down. So people took a huge hit on trading in large vehicles and paid more for smaller. Buying high, selling low.


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jul 16, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Lets say you went for the most fuel efficient gasoline Civic, which I'm going to assume is the base model...with the least amount of options and probably a manual. $15,305  the hybrid costs: $23,650 Difference: $8,345. It'll take you 22 years to break even.
> 
> "But what if gas goes up!"
> 
> ...





i'm a little lazy today, so i'll just say that i doubt this math is correct, b/c i bet that the "base" hybrid civic comes standard with all sorts of features that are options on the base gas-powered civic.  put it another way, i don't think the hybrid engine is the only difference between the cars, and that the hybrid otherwise costs over $8k more on the civic.

you have to compare models that are identical equipment-wise but for the gas vs. hybrid difference.


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## ctenidae (Jul 16, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> i'm a little lazy today, so i'll just say that i doubt this math is correct, b/c i bet that the "base" hybrid civic comes standard with all sorts of features that are options on the base gas-powered civic.  put it another way, i don't think the hybrid engine is the only difference between the cars, and that the hybrid otherwise costs over $8k more on the civic.
> 
> you have to compare models that are identical equipment-wise but for the gas vs. hybrid difference.



Unfortunately, it's pretty much impossible to compare apples to apples entirely.  All of the math is suspect, but directionally seems to be correct- really, I've never seen anyone argue that the price differential on a hybrid is made up in a reasonable time.  I recall reading an article in Car and Driver, or somesuch, recently that did a pretty good job of adjusting the prices for what were options on one model and standard on the other- at least, they considered a lot of points. Math still didn't work out in the hybrid's favor.I have seen it done on diesels, but it's barely, if I recall correctly.

Bottom line, though- most people don't buy a hybrid to save money. They do it to save teh planet, or to satisfy some other philosophical need, which is fine. I'm glad they do- at teh very least, it sends a market signal to the car companies that research into the field pays off, which is good. I can't wait until I get my Mr. Fusion-powered all-electric car that runs off table scraps.


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## Geoff (Jul 16, 2009)

ctenidae said:


> Math still didn't work out in the hybrid's favor.I have seen it done on diesels, but it's barely, if I recall correctly.



The problem with the math on diesels is that the math is usually done using 'sticker price'.  At least with VWs, you never see diesels discounted.  Right now, the 2L turbodiesel engine is in short supply due to European demand so VW isn't shipping many to the US.  I doubt you could buy one for less than sticker price.   If you use 'actual purchase price' in your calculations and assume you're going to operate the car for 150,000 miles where the spread on a private sale gasoline model and a diesel model is small, you are really unlikely to get your money back on the improved fuel economy.  If you have access to ag, marine, or off-road diesel that isn't taxed, it turns out to be a win but you have a slight risk that an inspector will syphon a little fuel out of your tank and give you a big fine because it's an illegal dye color.   I'd guess half the diesel pickups on the road are running illegal fuel at least some of the time.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 16, 2009)

Geoff said:


> If you have access to ag, marine, or off-road diesel that isn't taxed, it turns out to be a win but you have a slight risk that an inspector will syphon a little fuel out of your tank and give you a big fine because it's an illegal dye color.   I'd guess half the diesel pickups on the road are running illegal fuel at least some of the time.



How often do you think that really happens?  I've never heard of anyone getting their fuel inspected at any sort of check point.

I know a guy who does it that all the time.  I don't think he's ever had an issue.


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## ctenidae (Jul 16, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> How often do you think that really happens?  I've never heard of anyone getting their fuel inspected at any sort of check point.
> 
> I know a guy who does it that all the time.  I don't think he's ever had an issue.



Semis get checked sometimes for ultra low sulfur diesel, but it'd be a real ass of a cop to check a car for the right dye color.


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## Geoff (Jul 16, 2009)

ctenidae said:


> Semis get checked sometimes for ultra low sulfur diesel, but it'd be a real ass of a cop to check a car for the right dye color.



It depends where you are and who pulls you over.  If a Vermont Department of Transportation guy pulls over a diesel pickup, they'll check the fuel.  I've seen them flag down big pickups and stake bed trucks on Route 4 in West Bridgewater near the Long Trail Brewery where they occasionally do spot truck "safety inspections".  I doubt any State Trooper, town cop, or rent-a-sheriff would do it.


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## Glenn (Jul 16, 2009)

Geoff said:


> It depends where you are and who pulls you over.  If a Vermont Department of Transportation guy pulls over a diesel pickup, they'll check the fuel.  I've seen them flag down big pickups and stake bed trucks on Route 4 in West Bridgewater near the Long Trail Brewery where they occasionally do spot truck "safety inspections".  I doubt any State Trooper, town cop, or rent-a-sheriff would do it.



No kidding? Now that's interesting. I've never heard of that before. 

Then again, right at the gas station off of Exit 3, you can buy off-road diesel from the pump. It would certainly take a certain amount of "brass" to just fill up your vehicle there. I imagine filling cans, or one of those transfer tanks mounted to the bed would be a better option. 

I think there are probably "bigger fish to fry" than guys in duallies...but that's just me.


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## mondeo (Jul 16, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> do you have links to a study like that? i'm not saying it's not true, but hybrids do make use of much smaller engines, which should take a corresponding less amount of energy to produce.
> 
> regarding the "total energy consumed" point, it might take more units of energy to make a hybrid car, but the type of energy is important. you can make an argument that even if it takes more total energy to construct and run the hybrid than a conventional car, the fact that the hybrid uses less oil to run (and more of, say, coal?) to construct, is better from a pollution standpoint (don't know if that's true) and energy independence standpoint (that should be true).


Don't have the study for the Hummer vs. Prius and don't particularly believe it to be true; at least, it's probably a very myopic case study to prove a point. Never something to be completely trusted, but it at least shines a light on the issue.

I doubt differently sized engines take that much different energy to produce, at least if you're keeping the cylinder count the same. Sure, maybe a little more metal, but same machining operations, valves, cylinder liners, crankshafts, etc. are all about the same,...

Really the point is that you can't just look at gas consumption and say one is better than the other because of the beginning and end of life complications. I don't think anyone's actually done that study in a reliable way.


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## noski (Jul 16, 2009)

...Did I mention the tax incentive of $1750 for the hybrid and the sales tax deduction to boot?


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## ComeBackMudPuddles (Jul 17, 2009)

noski said:


> ...Did I mention the tax incentive of $1750 for the hybrid and the sales tax deduction to boot?





i thought those hybrid incentives have been phased out......


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## noski (Jul 17, 2009)

ComeBackMudPuddles said:


> i thought those hybrid incentives have been phased out......




Ford Fusion Hybrid - $3,400 (until 3/31/09, then halved--expires 4/1/10) ...so $1700 incentive for the Fusion...but not the 2010 Escape, only the 2009.


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## noski (Sep 29, 2009)

I ended up with the 2010 Ford Fusion, AWD. I didn't opt for the Hybrid. I had to order it so I don't actually have it yet.


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## WJenness (Sep 29, 2009)

noski said:


> I ended up with the 2010 Ford Fusion, AWD. I didn't opt for the Hybrid. I had to order it so I don't actually have it yet.



One of my co-workers has a fusion. I was impressed with the quality inside the car. Much better than Fords of 10 years ago.

My biggest issue with it was the lack of headroom in the passenger seat. I'm 6'4" and the passenger seat in her car didn't have height adjustment, so my choices were: slouch, lean the seat way back, or get a crick in my neck.

Other than that, it seemed like a very well put together car...

Unfortunately, the lack of a standard transmission in anything other than the base model immediately deletes it from any potential shopping list for me.

-w


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## Marc (Sep 29, 2009)

WJenness said:


> One of my co-workers has a fusion. I was impressed with the quality inside the car. Much better than Fords of 10 years ago.
> 
> My biggest issue with it was the lack of headroom in the passenger seat. I'm 6'4" and the passenger seat in her car didn't have height adjustment, so my choices were: slouch, lean the seat way back, or get a crick in my neck, _don't be so freakishly tall_



Fixed that for you.


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## WJenness (Sep 29, 2009)

So 99.2% of guys in my age bracket are shorter than me... (source: http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/230_cumulative_percent_distribution_of_population_by.html ) Don't make it sound like I'm some kind of statistical freak... geez...







Oh, wait...


-w


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## Glenn (Sep 29, 2009)

noski said:


> I ended up with the 2010 Ford Fusion, AWD. I didn't opt for the Hybrid. I had to order it so I don't actually have it yet.




Cool, post pics when you get it. You're exempt from burnout pics since it's AWD. But you'll have to do a Finnish Flick the first time it snows. A vid of that would be sweet.


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## noski (Sep 30, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Cool, post pics when you get it. You're exempt from burnout pics since it's AWD. But you'll have to do a Finnish Flick the first time it snows. A vid of that would be sweet.




Trust me, I have considered that technique more than once as I drive down my MRV steep, back-country road. Down being the key here....


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