# AZ Challenge 2009: Chris Nyberg, Killington/Pico



## Greg (Jul 21, 2009)

Chris Nyberg, President & General Manager, of *Killington/Pico Ski Resort* has agreed to participate in the 2009 AlpineZone Ski area Challenge! This is your opportunity to ask questions, offer suggestions, or say some praise to the men and women who are in charge of the Northeast's ski areas. Please post some suggested questions in this thread and we'll select ten to present for official response. 

Also please don't be offended if we edit/change your question for grammar, tone, or some other minor thing. In order to get in all of the questions we MAY merge some questions but we'll do our best to keep the substance of your question. If we don't get your question in, feel free to post a follow up after we get the results...we are encouraging the representatives follow the feedback threads.

As always, please be respectful of Mr. Nyberg and keep it civil. Also, please refrain from asking specifics about skier visit numbers, financials, demographic information, etc. Chris needs to be discrete about certain information. 

Ask away!

*Killington/Pico Profile*


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## deadheadskier (Jul 21, 2009)

I skied Pico last season for the first time in a long while.  The main trail under the summit quad had practically zero cover in early February except for a small ribbon on the skiers left side of the trail.  Was this a snowmaking malfunction that caused this issue?


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## RootDKJ (Jul 21, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Who would you consider to be the top 30 skiers at Killington?
> 
> kidding


OMG, I literally laughed out loud rolling my head back.  Nicely done dhs!

Ok on a more serious nature...I've been skiing at Killington since my childhood.  Overall, I enjoy it there despise some unpopular decisions over the last few seasons.  Now, the lack of The Crossover and the new trail network off Skye peak leave me confused.  On more than one occasion, I wound up at Bear due to a wrong turn.  Any plans to re-visit the trail routing or add better signage?


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## Highway Star (Jul 21, 2009)

Hi Chris.   I've seen you around the mountain and said hi several times, many of my friends have met you also.  You seem like a nice guy and seem to be doing a good job at Killington.  Thank you for all your hard work. 

I've skied all over the east for 25+ years, first time at Killington was in 1987. When we were there in 1992, there was 20 feet of snow on superstar, monster bumps, and I'll never forget it.  I've been a passholder at Killington the last five years and ususally ski every weekend, or about 60 days a year.   My brother runs a snowboard park at an area south of you.  I'm not in the industry, but I pay attention.  Anyway......

I REALLY like the new Skye Peak Quad and trail layout, eliminating the crossover.  It's not at all complicated for anyone who can read a map, and makes those trails ski much better.  Only major drawbacks are the excessive lines for the skye peak quad (due to poor line management!!), the traffic on the main trails going into Bear, and the super dangerous intersection of the new great eastern with upper skyelark/bittersweet.  I've also never seen so many jibbers bombing down upper skyeburst and dreamaker to get to the park.....it makes little sense that the stash and dreamaker parks are completely separated.  Dreammaker is a fantastic trail when it can be skied top to bottom.

*Question:* Have you given any thought to re-arranging the lower bear setup, for better flow of traffic?  Perhaps putting the big park on lower Wildfire again, and re-installing the superpipe ropetow?  That would give you both skyeburst and dreamaker as full length, uninterupted trails.  Lower wildfire could be turned into a continuation of the stash, using the woods next to it and the skyepeak quad liftline (you know, the one with the cliff that people always poach)?  People could session the pipe with a rope tow.  Upper wildfire would continue to be bumps.  Upper bear trapclaw(whatever) would still be the mini park.   Oh, and please don't blast the viper pit.  Having seen the park on lower Wildfire, and how much better it was than Dreammaker, this makes much more sense.

*Question: * Why hasn't there been snowmaking on Devil's Fiddle for the last few years?  Without any doubt, Devil's Fiddle is the best trail at Killington, and quite possibly the best expert trail in the northeast.  Historically, it has been a snowmaking trail due to the southeastern exposure, and rocky nature.  It also used to be much wider at the bottom before it was allowed to grow in.  Cutting back the brush, *making snow*, and perhaps incorporating the old lift line and nearby glades with it would make for one amazing expert skiing area.  Doesn't even need to be that much snowmaking, just enough to set a base.

The *Killington-Pico Interconnect* is by far the most important project for the re-growth of Killington and it's position in the eastern skiing market.  Not the Ski Village.  At full buildout (four lifts), plus some glades, it would put you at *1500 skiable acres*, by far the most in the east.  It would improve access for day trip skiers coming from the west.  It would improve revenue yield per visit due to spending at lodges from people exploring the mountain.  It would certainly increase skier visits.  And, it would sell real estate, or at least give the town a good reason to support building a Ski Village.  *QUESTION:*  Why has there been little to no talk about the Interconnect?  At least ASC, dead broke, would talk about it.  I understand Phase 1 involves 2 lifts (1 HSQ), 110 acres of trails, snowmaking, and a lodge....at a ~15 million price tag.  Has there been any efforts to get SP Land or E2M to pay for part of this, to jump start the building of the village?  Could Killington fund a reduced scope inital phase, such as just the Pico side lift (fixed quad), traversing trails, and limited snowmaking.....for a sub $5 million price tag?

*Question: * I see that Killington is aiming for a season "early November to early May".  While encouraging, will there be any enhancements to the strategy to bring this about?  Opening top to bottom on the K-1 is proven difficult in the past.  Needing to produce 100+ acre feet of snow in variable weather is an obvious challenge.  In 2006, Killington wasn't able to open until Thanksgiving day, even though Stowe had 2ft at the summit in late october.  Eastern weather is unreliable, and I think it's entirely possible that poor weather could cause a delay of opening until early December, as a worse case senario. Have you considered an alternate strategy, such as opening on Superstar/Skyelark, or installing an new upper mountain lift and using downloading on the K-1?  What about the spring?  I'm sure most diehards would rather you stayed open until mid-May or Memorial day.  Oh, and opening on a Sunday, and closing on a Saturday.....will you be changing that?

*Question:*  Could the south ridge triple be replaced by a fast (550 ft/min), straight, double chair, similar to the castlerock chair at sugarbush?  This would lower capacity and decrease the ride time from 10 minutes to 7.5 minutes.

*Question:*  Ever consider cutting more narrow natural snow trails like Roundabout, or like "Rumble" at sugarbush?

*Question:*  Can you talk about any plans for changing Great Northern?  It is quite possibly the worst trail on the mountain.

*Question: * Any thoughts about reopening lower sunrise?  With a used double chair for cheap, and limited snowmaking?  How about upper ramshead, with a poma lift?

*Question:*  Ever consider replacing the snowdon triple with a lift that ends at the top of conclusion, to serve racers on Highline and bumps on Conclusion?

*Question:*  Ever consider removing the Needles Eye Quad and relocating it to replace the Snowdon quad?  Could it be done with a minimal amount of investment in new parts...?  The NEQ is redundant...

And finally:

*Question:  * Why does *Stowe charge $4.75 for a magic hat* in their new spuce peak lodge, while *Killington charges $6.25 for a long trail *in mahogany ridge....?

Thanks, and looking forward to another great season!


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## 2knees (Jul 21, 2009)

My question is in regards to your grooming philosophy last spring.  It seemed to me that killington groomed more aggressively then in the past with a result of less in the way of spring bumps.  Not to say there werent any, just that there wasnt the same quantity some people have come to expect at killington in the spring.  Is this something we can expect in the years to come from powdr? 

Also, in regards to moguls, its been stated that you will be setting up and maintaining two seeded runs on superstar and O.L., if I recall correctly.  My question here is more out of curiosity as to what caused a change of heart on this.  Not to bring up old wounds, but I asked about this very thing a few years ago on Killingtonzone and the response was that it wasnt needed as the terrain is steep enough that bumps form naturally and quickly.

Thanks for any response on these.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 22, 2009)

Why do you continue to kill what Killington has always been about? The longest season, the most snowmaking, first to open, last to close (by a lot), etc.

Do you hate the access road business owners or is putting them out of business part of your master plan or just a by-product of horrible decision making on your part?

Why are you chasing your future customers away with absurd pricing for the childrens programs?

Why are you not quicker to change your decisions when they don't work out? Is it arrogance on your part or do you really think the decisions that you make are good for the ski area and the surrounding town?

Why are your employees not given the proper resources to do their jobs and then fired for lack of performance?

Why has the ski areas' recovery time from a weather event gone from 1 day to 3 days?

Why do you charge such ridiculous prices for food and beverages in the base lodges while food quality remains at an all time low?

Why did you kill the branding that has made Killington the best in the east for 50 years only to offer very cheap deals in season to get people to come back and ski/ride at K?

Do you understand that Utah and Vermont are 2 different states?

Do you understand that what works out west does not always work in the east?

Do you enjoy the hatred and animosity that your decisions have created?

Why was Pico not open full time all season? VASS runs out of Pico? Do you have a problem with special needs children? Do these children not meet your standards of who should be skiing and riding at Killingon and Pico?


I know, I know. Nuke away mods.


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## mondeo (Jul 22, 2009)

What is being done to fix the BMMC? What made it special in the past was that amateurs got to compete in front of a massive crowd; now it's just like any other Saturday/Sunday, except you get scored.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 22, 2009)

JerseyJoey..go easy on Chris...he was generous to accept the challenge..be kind..


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## Highway Star (Jul 22, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Why do you continue to kill what Killington has always been about? The longest season, the most snowmaking, first to open, last to close (by a lot), etc.
> 
> Do you hate the access road business owners or is putting them out of business part of your master plan or just a by-product of horrible decision making on your part?
> 
> ...



Wow, what pushed you over the edge?  I thought you were Killington's head cheerleader on A-zone?

Thanks for making me look positive in comparision!


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## Highway Star (Jul 22, 2009)

*Question:* Can you please, please, please, put a proper deck off of Superstar Pub, above the parking area?  It would be great for spring skiing, etc.


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## Geoff (Jul 22, 2009)

Question #1:  I am concerned about the impact on day skiers with the long-term SP Land proposal to obliterate the Snowshed, Rams Head, and Vale parking lots.   In the renderings, the main Killington lot is also shrinking.  A fortress gated community and a sprawl of trophy homes are slated to be built on that land.  Close-in day parking is a competitive advantage.  Remote parking lots incur large operating expense and result in a less-than-desirable first impression for day skiers.  Does KSRP support this plan?

Question #2: Do you have any progress to report on creating a Killington brand and marketing plan?  The Preston Smith brand was all superlatives.  Most vertical drop.  Most acres.  Biggest snowmaking system in the world.  Longest season.  Biggest, longest, steepest mogul trail in the east.  Best apres ski east of the Mississippi.   The data on the contraction of tourism in the town over the last half-dozen years is irrefutable based on Vermont Department of Transportation traffic counts and Vermont Department of Taxes revenue reports.   Few of those Preston Smith superlatives have changed but most of the northeast shuns Killington as being a complete zoo on weekends and holidays.  From a lift line, trail crowding, and base lodge crowding point of view, the ski product is the best it has ever been.   How are you planning to get the word out?

Question #3:  Devils Fiddle provides fantastic southeast-facing terrain that is always the first thing to soften in March and April when the rest of the resort is frozen concrete.   It was designed as a snowmaking trail and is rarely skiable on natural snow.   Are there plans to  blow snow on it and make this attraction available to your customers again?

Question #4: With the new lift and trail reconfiguration, the Great Eastern route is a choke point for novice and family skiers.  The first few hundred yards from the new lift down to Bittersweet is a daunting icy mogul field on weekends and holidays with mixed ability traffic on the trail.   Do you have plans to correct this choke point?

Question #5:  Killington got to where it is by bringing a huge number of people into the sport.  Your child ski school programs are the most expensive in the east.   They are significantly higher than known-expensive competitors like Stratton.  The second most expensive child ski school program in the east is at Pico.   Your learn-to-ski and learn-to-snowboard programs for adults are also significantly higher than your competition.   As your core customer base ages, it is critical to replace them.   Do you have plans to address this?


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## powhunter (Jul 22, 2009)

Are they really going to renovate coopers cabin??


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## wa-loaf (Jul 22, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Thanks for making me look positive in comparision!



Ha, I was thing the same thing reading that.


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## Greg (Jul 22, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Why do you continue to kill what Killington has always been about? The longest season, the most snowmaking, first to open, last to close (by a lot), etc.
> 
> Do you hate the access road business owners or is putting them out of business part of your master plan or just a by-product of horrible decision making on your part?
> 
> ...



So....did you buy your pass yet? :razz:

Seriously, how about rephrasing some of these and we'll be glad to include them. Putting him on the defensive will not get a genuine response. Criticism is fine, and I would think in a way helpful as long as it's done with tact. Ironically, I thought Highway Star's questions were pretty good and plan to include some. I wish he would post like that all the time.


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## Geoff (Jul 22, 2009)

Question #6:  This is more of a suggestion box item than a question but trash cans at the bottom and top of every lift would be both environmentally friendly and customer-friendly.   Kleenex dispensers attached to the trash cans would be a nice touch.   Basic tools for snowboard binding repair at the top of every lift is another nice touch.

Question #7: Another suggestion box item.... The two heated gondolas were a huge competitive advantage.   Have you considered making them functional again and running spot advertising in your target market areas whenever there is a cold snap?

Question #8: 250" of natural snow is a significant competitve advantage over your main (or is that Maine) competition.   It enables tree skiing and natural snow cut-trail terrain that just isn't available in snow-starved southern Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.   Have you considered expanding the on-the-map gladed terrain and promoting it?   

Question #9:  The new lift has created high traffic in the easier parts of Bear Mountain.   Your younger testerosterone-ladden customers have a traffic flow where they come out of The Stash and then mingle with the intermediate / low-expert skiers on Skyeburst and Lower Wildfire.   Frankly, this is unsafe and I encourage people to avoid that part of the mountain on weekends.  Have you considered blasting some ledge and installing snowmaking under the new lift to create a terrain park attraction that diverts some of this traffic flow?   It still has a trail intersection crossing Wildfire but it would allow you to rope off The Stash entering Skyeburst so you have a top-to-bottom cruiser.


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## Highway Star (Jul 22, 2009)

Greg, can we assume Chris is reading this thread and will see the questions even if they are not officially submitted?

Oh, and please don't lock this until Tin Woodsman and gpetrics gets a chance.....

Thanks!


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## Highway Star (Jul 22, 2009)

*Question:*  Several eastern ski areas hold an "extreme skiing" competitons, including Jay Peak, Magic, and Mad River Glen.  Killington would certainly be a viable venue for such an event - on both Devils Fiddle and Big Dipper.  Would you consider hosting one?  Thanks!


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## Greg (Jul 22, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Greg, can we assume Chris is reading this thread and will see the questions even if they are not officially submitted?
> 
> Oh, and please don't lock this until Tin Woodsman and gpetric gets a chance.....
> 
> Thanks!



I really don't know if he's following the thread or not, although I assume he is.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 22, 2009)

Greg said:


> So....did you buy your pass yet? :razz:
> 
> Seriously, how about rephrasing some of these and we'll be glad to include them. Putting him on the defensive will not get a genuine response. Criticism is fine, and I would think in a way helpful as long as it's done with tact. Ironically, I thought Highway Star's questions were pretty good and plan to include some. I wish he would post like that all the time.



Yes Greg, I've bought my pass. Make sure you get a hold of me when you make it over this year and try not to drink until 3am the night before we ski, ok pal?

I love Killington. I grew up skiing there and I remember all to well what she used to be. It was not that long ago. We have owners now that have the resources (read: personnel and finances) to bring Killington back to her former greatness. They have chosen to take the exact opposite approach. That's my take and I'm pissed about it.

Feel free to edit my post to meet AZ standards. Got no problem with that. See ya on the hill.


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## Highway Star (Jul 22, 2009)

Greg said:


> Ironically, I thought Highway Star's questions were pretty good and plan to include some. I wish he would post like that all the time.



So, would you mind telling me what you are interested in using, so I can go back and clean them up a bit?  Thanks!


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## Greg (Jul 22, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> So, would you mind telling me what you are interested in using, so I can go back and clean them up a bit?  Thanks!



I liked the Fiddle and season length question. Oh, and the beer question is very important. :razz:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 22, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Yes Greg, I've bought my pass. Make sure you get a hold of me when you make it over this year and try not to drink until 3am the night before we ski, ok pal?
> .



:x:x:blink:


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## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2009)

I think I am with the majority in that I think both Ovation and Big Dipper are far wider than they need to be.  At such widths they both lose considerable character and have greater exposure to wind scouring. Has any thought been given towards planting tree stands to improve the trail designs?


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## pepperdawg (Jul 22, 2009)

Question:  Will Killington lead the way with Japanese Skiing Robots?

Thank You


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## skiadikt (Jul 22, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I think I am with the majority in that I think both Ovation and Big Dipper are far wider than they need to be.  At such widths they both lose considerable character and have greater exposure to wind scouring. Has any thought been given towards planting tree stands to improve the trail designs?



i think you mean double dipper. big dipper is the gladed run.


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## thorski (Jul 22, 2009)

Are there any plans to expand the Rams head terrain park from top to bottom and possibly add a small to medium sized halfpipe?


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## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2009)

thorski said:


> Are there any plans to expand the Rams head terrain park from top to bottom and possibly add a small to medium sized halfpipe?



You didn't see the press release where they are doing exactly this and it will be sponsored by Daewoo?  :razz:


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## thorski (Jul 22, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> You didn't see the press release where they are doing exactly this and it will be sponsored by Daewoo?  :razz:



No.Very funny though.
 I thought Daewoo went belly up because the owner was skimming from the top or something like that.
Anyway the nephew and his little friends still want to hit a halfpipe built for people their size and old guys like me. I wouldn't care if it was built by jappanese robots. :grin:


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## thetrailboss (Jul 22, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I think I am with the majority in that I think both Ovation and Big Dipper are far wider than they need to be.  At such widths they both lose considerable character and have greater exposure to wind scouring. Has any thought been given towards planting tree stands to improve the trail designs?



They were wide to begin with, so you could let the trees grown in from the sides.  We've been talking about the same problem at Sugarbush with FIS and some other trails.  Part of the problem is that snowmaking overblow coats adjacent trees, kills them, and the trails get wider as a result.  IIRC they are once again blowing snow on Ovation, but they certainly blow it on Double Dipper.  Maybe cut back?


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## andyzee (Jul 22, 2009)

Where should we go for the answers to these questions, here or Killingtonzone?


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## deadheadskier (Jul 22, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> They were wide to begin with, so you could let the trees grown in from the sides.  We've been talking about the same problem at Sugarbush with FIS and some other trails.  Part of the problem is that snowmaking overblow coats adjacent trees, kills them, and the trails get wider as a result.  IIRC they are once again blowing snow on Ovation, but they certainly blow it on Double Dipper.  Maybe cut back?



never thought of the snowmaking overblow killing trees, interesting.  

I think any reclamation project would take years. Probably several seasons of fencing off more area than the intended regrowth.  OZ at Sunday River could definitely use some more cover as well.  

I think it can be / has been done though.  I'm not 100% certain, but I believe at one point the entirety of Spruce Peak at Stowe was stripped clean in an attempt to make an above tree line Austrian style experience.  The result was trails that rarely opened as all the snow was blown off into the woods.  Today this is no longer the case, though Main Street is still pretty wide and exposed.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

Wide trails=more skiable terrain to spread out the people!!!!


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wide trails=more skiable terrain to spread out the people!!!!



That's not how it works. Number of trails spread out the people, not width of trails.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> That's not how it works. Number of trails spread out the people, not width of trails.



it's all about skiable acerage..duh


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> it's all about skiable acerage..duh



Wider trails do not make more acreage. More acreage makes more acreage. You're welcome.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Wider trails do not make more acreage. More acreage makes more acreage. You're welcome.



It's not even worth argueing with you because you are so wrong..


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## gpetrics (Jul 23, 2009)

I would like to second HighwayStar's inquiry about whether there are plans of any sort for an "extreme skiing comp" at Killington. The view of Devil's Fiddle from sunrise village is downright intimidating. Every time I pop out of my favorite stashes behind Bear Mtn, I love getting a look at the Fiddle from below on my way back to the chair. I think with some minor cleanup to get rid of the *some* of the trees that are encroaching the trail from the skier's right, and blowing some *targeted* snow in places where there are obvious life risks (e.g. if the natural snow has not been kind enough to cover the protruding boulders below the cliff drops) there could be an extreme compwith a venue better than any other on the EC. I would love to know if there has been any thought whatsoever to hosting such an event. I think it would be a good way to bring back a bit of the "beast of the east" that at one time made up Killington's entire brand, without doing any damage to the new brand you are trying to cultivate. Not only would you bring in a very ecclectic and dedicated group of excellent skiers to spend a day ripping at Killington, I think with a smart advertising campaign it can be used as an event to intrigue and attract some lower level skiers to the mtn as day customers. 

I also think more skiers (who have money to spend) than you realize are captivated by the films and overall ski culture that TGR and MSP promote, and to exclude them and that culture is a mistake.... you do a good job with the Bear Mtn. Mogul Challenge year in and year out, but I feel like the entire event has become a bit dated when viewed int today's skiing scene.

So that wasn't really a question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that.


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## BushMogulMaster (Jul 23, 2009)

Totally off topic, but in response to the wide trail discussion.  And though I rarely side with GSS, I must admit he has a point on this one!

Regardless of one's opinion of trail width, additional acreage (regardless of whether it's a new trail or a widened trail) results in an increased SAOT (skiers at one time) figure, which--depending on other facilities (parking, lodge, restroom, etc.)--determines the overall CCC (comfortable carrying capacity).  I hate widened trails as much as the next guy, but a lot of ski areas who suffer from a poorly balanced infrastructure will use the concept of trail widening to increase the number of skiers that a particular "pod" can handle at one time.  

For example, a common situation might be that a ski area was a bit hasty in its decision to put in a new, higher-capacity lift.  In their planning, all they could see were the benefits of a new, fast, high capacity lift.  But they forgot to compare the SAOT of the lift to the SAOT of the trails.  Then they are putting more people in the trail system than it can handle.  Widening a main trail into a superhighway is a simple (albeit ugly) method of increasing the trail SAOT.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2009)

I understand how widening a trail can increase it's carrying capacity, but only IF such widening doesn't increase it's potential for wind scouring.  It really depends on the aspect of the trail.  If through widening, you create a trail that is perpetually icy, now all the traffic you were hoping it absorbs flees to the narrower trails nearby and trashes the conditions on those trails much more quickly.

Cannon is another mountain that makes me say, 'What the heck were they thinking' with the front 5 on the bottom.  A few of those trails are wider than they are long and I can't wrap my head around why they wouldn't have cut two trails in the place of one really wide one.

Outside of a wide open powder filled western bowl, I see zero appeal in a trail that is wider than 100 feet.  Most of the time I prefer much less width than that, but I can see the speed freaks wanting some greater width.


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## Riverskier (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Wider trails do not make more acreage. More acreage makes more acreage. You're welcome.



You are joking, right? I, and I think most people on here would agree, that additional trails are preferable to widening them. However, clearly widening a trail does add acreage, and at least to some degree spreads people out.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> You are joking, right? I, and I think most people on here would agree, that additional trails are preferable to widening them. However, clearly widening a trail does add acreage, and at least to some degree spreads people out.



Hardly a joke at all.

What widening trails does is remove skiable acreage of trees. That's not a trade off I'm in favor of. 

At many areas, skiable acreage is boundry to boundary. Taking away 5 acres of tree skiing to add 5 acres of trail skiing is not increasing skiable acreage. It's a wash, and I am def not in favor of that trade off. Trees are much better.

A perfect example at Killington is Big Dipper/ Double Dipper. You cut the super-highway by splitting Dipper trees in half. You did not increase skaible acreage. All you did was F up a really sweet tree run by cutting it in half. Skiable acreage remained exactly the same.


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## Greg (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Hardly a joke at all.
> 
> What widening trails does is remove skiable acreage of trees. That's not a trade off I'm in favor of.
> 
> ...



For the average Joe, widening a trail does increase skiable acreage. Obviously not all woods is skiable either, unless of course you're a Jersey Joe....


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## mondeo (Jul 23, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I understand how widening a trail can increase it's carrying capacity, but only IF such widening doesn't increase it's potential for wind scouring. It really depends on the aspect of the trail. If through widening, you create a trail that is perpetually icy, now all the traffic you were hoping it absorbs flees to the narrower trails nearby and trashes the conditions on those trails much more quickly.


And getting back to the initial question of narrowing Ovation, skier's right is always garbage skiing, it isn't even skiable for a good chunk of the season. The only time I ever cross over to the right half of the run is if I have to bail on a line or avoid a slower skier.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

Greg said:


> For the average Joe, widening a trail does increase skiable acreage. Obviously not all woods is skiable either, unless of course you're a Jersey Joe....



What is an average skier? I know not what that means. 

Trees are trees. They are all skiable to a degree. If a particular line in the trees is not skiable, then move over 5 feet to your left or right. Like I said to you earlier, I can't tell you, but I can show you, and I will.


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## Riverskier (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Hardly a joke at all.
> 
> What widening trails does is remove skiable acreage of trees. That's not a trade off I'm in favor of.
> 
> ...



Technically true for a mountain that allows boundry to boundry skiing. However, even at those mountains not every acre is actually skiable, so widening a trail wouldn't necessarily destroy a sweet tree run. Yes, technically you could say any patch of woods is skiable somehow to someone, but I am trying to be realistic. I am really just debating the point here though, as I am NEVER in favor of widening trails for a number of reasons.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

Riverskier said:


> I am NEVER in favor of widening trails for a number of reasons.



I can't argue with you there. Dead on !!


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## Highway Star (Jul 23, 2009)

mondeo said:


> And getting back to the initial question of narrowing Ovation, skier's right is always garbage skiing, it isn't even skiable for a good chunk of the season. The only time I ever cross over to the right half of the run is if I have to bail on a line or avoid a slower skier.



What?  The best skiing on Ovation is skiers right!  Wish they would cut some of the brush though, and make a bit of snow on it....lol.


----------



## Highway Star (Jul 23, 2009)

gpetrics said:


> I would like to second HighwayStar's inquiry about whether there are plans of any sort for an "extreme skiing comp" at Killington. The view of Devil's Fiddle from sunrise village is downright intimidating. Every time I pop out of my favorite stashes behind Bear Mtn, I love getting a look at the Fiddle from below on my way back to the chair. I think with some minor cleanup to get rid of the *some* of the trees that are encroaching the trail from the skier's right, and blowing some *targeted* snow in places where there are obvious life risks (e.g. if the natural snow has not been kind enough to cover the protruding boulders below the cliff drops) there could be an extreme compwith a venue better than any other on the EC. I would love to know if there has been any thought whatsoever to hosting such an event. I think it would be a good way to bring back a bit of the "beast of the east" that at one time made up Killington's entire brand, without doing any damage to the new brand you are trying to cultivate. Not only would you bring in a very ecclectic and dedicated group of excellent skiers to spend a day ripping at Killington, I think with a smart advertising campaign it can be used as an event to intrigue and attract some lower level skiers to the mtn as day customers.
> 
> I also think more skiers (who have money to spend) than you realize are captivated by the films and overall ski culture that TGR and MSP promote, and to exclude them and that culture is a mistake.... you do a good job with the Bear Mtn. Mogul Challenge year in and year out, but I feel like the entire event has become a bit dated when viewed int today's skiing scene.
> 
> So that wasn't really a question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that.



Very well put.  This should be presented to Mr. Nyberg.


----------



## Geoff (Jul 23, 2009)

gpetrics said:


> I would like to second HighwayStar's inquiry about whether there are plans of any sort for an "extreme skiing comp" at Killington. The view of Devil's Fiddle from sunrise village is downright intimidating. Every time I pop out of my favorite stashes behind Bear Mtn, I love getting a look at the Fiddle from below on my way back to the chair. I think with some minor cleanup to get rid of the *some* of the trees that are encroaching the trail from the skier's right, and blowing some *targeted* snow in places where there are obvious life risks (e.g. if the natural snow has not been kind enough to cover the protruding boulders below the cliff drops) there could be an extreme compwith a venue better than any other on the EC. I would love to know if there has been any thought whatsoever to hosting such an event. I think it would be a good way to bring back a bit of the "beast of the east" that at one time made up Killington's entire brand, without doing any damage to the new brand you are trying to cultivate. Not only would you bring in a very ecclectic and dedicated group of excellent skiers to spend a day ripping at Killington, I think with a smart advertising campaign it can be used as an event to intrigue and attract some lower level skiers to the mtn as day customers.
> 
> I also think more skiers (who have money to spend) than you realize are captivated by the films and overall ski culture that TGR and MSP promote, and to exclude them and that culture is a mistake.... you do a good job with the Bear Mtn. Mogul Challenge year in and year out, but I feel like the entire event has become a bit dated when viewed int today's skiing scene.
> 
> So that wasn't really a question, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that.



I think you could stage an event on Fiddle in the spring the week before or after the mogul challenge when the surface is reliably soft.   It would point out the obvious competitive advantage of Killington that their natural terrain is superior and way more interesting than the terrain parks in Southern Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.   It would certainly be nice if the resort woke up to the fact that southeast-facing Fiddle has the best odds in the east for good spring conditions from mid-March onwards.   That should be marketed as a competetive advantage rather than putting a rope across it due to snowmaking neglect.   It's certainly way cheaper than the hundreds of snow cat hours they consume building a relatively unused half pipe at Bear.


----------



## Slowkemo (Jul 23, 2009)

Greg said:


> So....did you buy your pass yet? :razz:
> 
> *Seriously, how about rephrasing some of these and we'll be glad to include them. Putting him on the defensive will not get a genuine response*. Criticism is fine, and I would think in a way helpful as long as it's done with tact. Ironically, I thought Highway Star's questions were pretty good and plan to include some. I wish he would post like that all the time.



Not that I'm a fan of the attitudes of most Jersey skiers, but shouldn't this be something that is is addressed? Why is it that Killington's management has done such a poor job that there is criticism and hostility towards it? Look at an average TGR thread regarding Killington. They don't consider Killington related to skiing any more.


To Killington's credit, they aren't the only ones that have become neo-nazis regarding things such as "having fun" and "giving locals and return customers credit where it is due" (now things of the past in many places). Is something like this going to happen ever again? Or will the hills of the east continue this downward spiral?


----------



## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

Slowkemo said:


> Not that I'm a fan of the attitudes of most Jersey skiers, but shouldn't this be something that is is addressed? Why is it that Killington's management has done such a poor job that there is criticism and hostility towards it? Look at an average TGR thread regarding Killington. They don't consider Killington related to skiing any more.
> 
> 
> To Killington's credit, they aren't the only ones that have become neo-nazis regarding things such as "having fun" and "giving locals and return customers credit where it is due" (now things of the past in many places). Is something like this going to happen ever again? Or will the hills of the east continue this downward spiral?



Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst. 

All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.

Then this guy comes along and thinks he knows better than the people who made K a success in its first 45 years? What is that? The results of Chris's business decisions are obvious and they are a disaster, yet he still won't see the light, or maybe he does but is too arrogant and full of himself to admit that he's made mistakes. Either way, Killington loses. So does it's customers. So does the people who have skied K their whole lives and made it the great success that it once was.

Instead, they have created a ton of hostility among Killington regulars, property owners, locals, children, and business owners.They are not only killing the mountain, they are killing the town as well. Talk to any business owner along the access road.  Powdr is a joke and Nyberg is too arrogant to admit that he's made a mistake so he just stays the course. The wrong course.

How to you take one of the greatest weekends in the skiing world, the BMMC, and turn it into nothing in a matter of one season. There was one campsite at OL last season during BMMC. JUST ONE!!!!  There were always hundreds. It was one of the biggest parties the skiing world has ever known. 2 years later it doesn't even exist anymore.

How do you charge $180/day for the kids programs? You didn't make more money, you just sent your future customer core to other mountains. What kind of business decision is that?

I could go on and on, but I'm pretty upset right now. Just had to vent. Outta here.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst.
> 
> All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.
> 
> ...



Please Jersey..we are happy to have Chris on here so ask your questions in a kind way..


----------



## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Please Jersey..we are happy to have Chris on here so ask your questions in a kind way..



What questions? I'm not asking any questions I already know the answers to. 

Go ahead and ask your questions. Chris will have Tommy lie to you with bullshit answers meant to get around giving you the truth. It's been happening since they moved in and it will continue to happen until they move out. We've been lied to since day one.

OK, now I'm outta here.


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## mondeo (Jul 23, 2009)

Someone seems to have some roid rage...


----------



## icedtea (Jul 23, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Someone seems to have some roid rage...




makes sense..everyone from nj is on the juice.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

icedtea said:


> makes sense..everyone from nj is on the juice.



except Root..he's on the ribs..


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## Highway Star (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst.
> 
> All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.
> 
> ...



This isn't very productive in this thread.............


----------



## Highway Star (Jul 23, 2009)

Last year's challenge thread:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/31067-killington-2008-alpinezone-ski-area-challenge.html


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## frankm938 (Jul 23, 2009)

not sure why jersey joey has such and issue with chris nyberg.  overall i think he has done a pretty good job so far.  the new hi-speed quad is great, the dream maker park is better than anything we had in the past, the tree thinning and brush clearing that was done on growler last summer made it the best tree run on the mountain (ive heard they plan on doing the same to other tree runs that have been over grown)
and he is going to seed a couple mogul runs this season!!
the fact that the kids program is too expensive is not an issue for me (ill teach my kids to ski myself)  or the fact that burgers cost too much, i can pack a lunch
i do however agree with the sentiments about the BMMC, it would be nice to come up with a way to bring it back to the way it was.  

my question is... is there any way that outer limits could be open for christmas week without natural snowfall?
spending a week on flat groomers gets old.  so im sure everyone that spends the week up there would enjoy having it open.


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## Highway Star (Jul 23, 2009)

Greg said:


> I liked the Fiddle and season length question. Oh, and the beer question is very important. :razz:



Can you please ask them what is up with the interconnect?  Can they do a limited initial phase....?


----------



## icedtea (Jul 23, 2009)

frankm938 said:


> not sure why jersey joey has such and issue with chris nyberg.  overall i think he has done a pretty good job so far.  the new hi-speed quad is great, the dream maker park is better than anything we had in the past, the tree thinning and brush clearing that was done on growler last summer made it the best tree run on the mountain (ive heard they plan on doing the same to other tree runs that have been over grown)
> and he is going to seed a couple mogul runs this season!!
> the fact that the kids program is too expensive is not an issue for me (ill teach my kids to ski myself)  or the fact that burgers cost too much, i can pack a lunch
> i do however agree with the sentiments about the BMMC, it would be nice to come up with a way to bring it back to the way it was.
> ...




Last XMAS week I think I remember a lot of snow and being in the woods all day. No reason to be on the groomers.


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## frankm938 (Jul 23, 2009)

it rained, then got cold and the mtn was a sheet of ice xmas week.
what im talking about is under normal snow conditions in november and december when there isnt enough natural snow to open OL.  ive spent the last 12 xmas weeks at killington and OL is only open when they get a big storm or two before xmas.


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## mondeo (Jul 23, 2009)

icedtea said:


> Last XMAS week I think I remember a lot of snow and being in the woods all day. No reason to be on the groomers.


I wouldn't expect it to be like that again this year. I think that's why Frank specified opening without natural snowfall; what was it, like 5-6 feet of natural the week before Christmas? (maybe exaggerated, but it was a lot.) O.L. opened with hip-deep natural, fluffy powder a week or two early.


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## frankm938 (Jul 23, 2009)

exactly.  that storm was about 48" a week before Xmas and it was gone by new years


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

frankm938 said:


> not sure why jersey joey has such and issue with chris nyberg.  .



1) Ski season shortened by almost 2 months

2) Not running key lifts during the week

3) Completely absurd kids program pricing  (Although a bit better with the frequent kids discount card, but ya gotta give them thousands of dollars up front to take advantage of the discount)

4) Death of BMMC

5) Access road businesses getting killed

6) Not running PICO full time

7) Being flat out lied to about things like alcohol consumption at events (ie. BMMC et al)

8) Substandard grooming

9) Substandard recoveries from weather events

10) Piss poor customer service

11) Piss poor treatment of employees

12) Poor communication between mgt and core customer base

13) Complete disregard for the people that made Killington what it was.

14) Crackdown on skiing in the woods that are not marked (Nyberg himself has pulled passes. No I'm not kidding)

15) And on and on and on.................... Basically ignoring what made Killington what it was to begin with and what made it successful all these years.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2009)

Okay,

complaints are out in the open.  A little criticism can be healthy, but lets try and keep this thread on track.  No need to argue back and forth in this particular thread regarding various differences in opinion.  When it comes to Killington, there has to be at least 20 other threads kicking around to have such conversations.

Keep it within the guidelines of the challenge that Greg outlined in the initial post please.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 23, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> When it comes to Killington, there has to be at least 20 other threads kicking around to have such conversations.



And why do you think that is? That's MY question for our fearless leader!!


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## Highway Star (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> 14) Crackdown on skiing in the woods that are not marked (Nyberg himself has pulled passes. No I'm not kidding)




There has been a crackdown on skiing closed trails and permanently closed areas (liftlines).  As far as I know, there has been no crackdown on skiing unmarked woods, which remain "at your own risk".


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## RootDKJ (Jul 23, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> except Root..he's on the ribs..


Holla!


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## deadheadskier (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> And why do you think that is? That's MY question for our fearless leader!!



noted


----------



## icedtea (Jul 23, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> There has been a crackdown on skiing closed trails and permanently closed areas (liftlines).  As far as I know, there has been no crackdown on skiing unmarked woods, which remain "at your own risk".




The patrollers were also pretty cool about using the crossover last spring in order to hit up the needles area and such.


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## sLoPeS (Jul 23, 2009)

icedtea said:


> The patrollers were also pretty cool about using the crossover last spring in order to hit up the needles area and such.



K patrol is cool, just be cool to them.  if u poach lower O when its closed, chances are u will get caught.  dont duck ropes, go around them.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Nobody has ever done to any ski resort in the history of skiing what Powdr Corp and Nyberg have done to Killington. They bought the best and turned it into the worst.



Why do you say that?  I imagine that you were probably part of the vocal many who was upset with ASC.  Killington was at its best before ASC.  



> All Powdr and Nyberg had to do was return Killington to what it was just before ASC started having issues. They would have been welcomed with open arms. Hell, I woulda led the welcoming parade myself!! It worked for 45 years. At the end of the ASC days, it was bent, but it wasn't broken. Fixing it was as easy as pie.


----------



## andyzee (Jul 23, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> 1) Ski season shortened by almost 2 months
> 
> 2) Not running key lifts during the week
> 
> ...



Kind of hard to argue with that. So my question to Mr. Nyberg: will you be addressing any of these issues? This is not the first I hear of them. 

(Then again, gotta figure this will be deleted since it may cost advertising dollars. But in all honesty, I believe these to be genuine concerns)


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 23, 2009)

sLoPeS said:


> K patrol is cool, just be cool to them.  if u poach lower O when its closed, chances are u will get caught.  dont duck ropes, go around them.



times 2..the patrollers at Killington are alot cooler than the SuperTroopers at Blue..


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## RootDKJ (Jul 23, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> times 2..the patrollers at Killington are alot cooler than the SuperTroopers at Blue..


I've met cops that are cooler than the SuperTroopers at Blue...


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Why do you say that?  I imagine that you were probably part of the vocal many who was upset with ASC.  Killington was at its best before ASC.



I was not upset with ASC. I was however upset with what _happened_ to ASC.

ASC knew exactly how to run Killington but they lost their financial resources. Powdr has the resources but has no idea how to run Killington. Exact opposites.

I intend to spend much more time in the Mad River Valley this season than ever before even though I have a K pass. I have a lot of respect for Win and a lot of respect for the co-op at MRG and I will take much more of my skiing dollars to those 2 areas this season. I may know Killington better, but I've become very fed up with mgt decisions since Powdr came to town. Their treatment of employees is abyssmal as is their treatment of their core customer base. Bad for business. Bad for everyone.

Let's see if Chrissy has Tommy answer any of the "real" questions in this thread.
You can bet the mortgage he won't, or if he does, it will be a pack of lies. That's what sucks most about Powdr. The deception of the long time customers.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2009)

Just so I have my ownership time line correct.  Wasn't ASC responsible for creating the Canyon area?  I won't call that area of the mountain completely ruined, but it used to be A LOT better.  Wasn't ASC also responsible for putting in the Needle's Eye HSQ, which is just about the most pointless lift placement I've ever seen.  Wasn't ASC also responsible for the closing of Sunrise Mountain, which was a GREAT alternative for day skiers outside of the long slow lift.  

JJ, I certainly see reason for your displeasure with some of the actions of Powdr, but running out of money wasn't ASC's only problem.  They carried on the long season tradition at K, but they had they're share of screw ups as well.


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## mondeo (Jul 24, 2009)

What's with the hating on Needle's HSQ? Lapping Vertigo and Needle's lift line is sweet.


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## andyzee (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> What's with the hating on Needle's HSQ? Lapping Vertigo and Needle's lift line is sweet.



Was thinking the same thing.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Just so I have my ownership time line correct.  Wasn't ASC responsible for creating the Canyon area?  I won't call that area of the mountain completely ruined, but it used to be A LOT better.  Wasn't ASC also responsible for putting in the Needle's Eye HSQ, which is just about the most pointless lift placement I've ever seen.  Wasn't ASC also responsible for the closing of Sunrise Mountain, which was a GREAT alternative for day skiers outside of the long slow lift.
> 
> JJ, I certainly see reason for your displeasure with some of the actions of Powdr, but running out of money wasn't ASC's only problem.  They carried on the long season tradition at K, but they had they're share of screw ups as well.



1) Your time line is way off on the Canyon area. That was Pres Smith. The CQ4 is a great lift and another perfect example of a key lift that Powdr rarely runs during the week, although that has changed a bit as of last season.

2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.

3) The closing of sunrise mountain was a land swap deal that never materialized. No I will not get into the details of the interconnect here.

4) As far as the longest season in the east, ASC knew exactly what they were doing. Powdr doesn't have a clue. Hell, they can't even spell Powder correctly.


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## Greg (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> And why do you think that is? That's MY question for our fearless leader!!



I think your point is made and I think it's a good overall question. Let's try to rephrase it and touch on a three or four of the bigger items like season length, BMMC, etc. I know it's tough to refrain throwing in some jabs, especially when so many people feel so passionate about what's happening at Killington, but if you really want some honest responses to these concerns, you need to ask them in the right way. Not sure if Highway Star is just being condescending with his almost over-the-top politeness, but his questions are more likely to get presented.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> I was not upset with ASC. I was however upset with what _happened_ to ASC.
> 
> ASC knew exactly how to run Killington but they lost their financial resources. Powdr has the resources but has no idea how to run Killington. Exact opposites.
> 
> ...



OK.  Now I understand what you were saying.  I just read the ASC section in Lorentz's book...and I was a bit  as to what Les Otten "claimed" happened behind the scenes with ASC when it went public and the aftermath.  Pretty discouraging.  

I take it that you have a place at Killington, hence why you still have a pass there?  

And I'd say drop that and get a Sugarbush pass.  It was the same price if not cheaper....


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## mondeo (Jul 24, 2009)

andyzee said:


> Was thinking the same thing.


 


JerseyJoey said:


> 2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.


My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Realistically, taking the gondi adds a few minutes per run, but you get lappable access to all the Needle's terrain plus some more. The fact that there's never a line points to its usefulness. Bump and tree skiers are a small segment of the revenue base at any mountain, I'm not sure that adding what is essentially a more convienent but redundant lift to serve a few percent of the skiers did anything to revenue, but now that it's there they upset people if it isn't spinning. If they never installed it, no one would be complaining that there wasn't a chair there.

From a skier's standpoint, I like it, from a business standpoint, it was a dumb move. There's a reason K went downhill in ASC's later years; they simply didn't have a sustainable business plan, mostly due to purchasing too many resorts, but stuff like the Needle's lift didn't help.


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## RENO (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I wouldn't expect it to be like that again this year. I think that's why Frank specified opening without natural snowfall; what was it, like 5-6 feet of natural the week before Christmas? (maybe exaggerated, but it was a lot.) O.L. opened with hip-deep natural, fluffy powder a week or two early.


Not exagerating! That was an awesome week! :grin:


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> There's a reason K went downhill in ASC's later years; they simply didn't have a sustainable business plan, mostly due to purchasing too many resorts, but stuff like the Needle's lift didn't help.



ASC's downfall was not due to redundant lifts or purchasing too many resorts. 

ASC's downfall was due to poor investments in real estate. As much as it hurts me to say this, Les had the right idea. He just implemented it way way way too fast, but I truly believe he had the right idea. Ya gotta walk before you can run. Les took off at full speed right out of the gate. That was ASC's legacy as well as their downfall.

Greg,

You can edit or rephrase or whatever my posts in this thread. Don't make no matter to me. I expect nothing to be answered truthfully by either Chris or Tommy, but mostly Chris. Tommy has a job to do and he has a family to support and he needs an income to do that. He is just a puppet in this scenario. He knows what he can and can't say, and I have no problem with that. His job is to spin. When you spin, you lie. It's a job. Nothing more. I expect nothing in here to be answered truthfully and straight on. You shouldn't either. Not from Powdr. 

You want the truth, go to a MRG Shareholders meeting or ask Win something about his wonderful resort. You get the goods. With Powdr, you get "War and Peace", mostly war. Bunch of crap at best.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> 1) Your time line is way off on the Canyon area. That was Pres Smith. The CQ4 is a great lift and another perfect example of a key lift that Powdr rarely runs during the week, although that has changed a bit as of last season.
> 
> 2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.
> 
> ...



I stand corrected.  However, nowadays people treat Pres Smith like he's some sort of god.  While the Canyon lift is nice as it avoids the run out you used to have to take to get to the old double, the whole destroying of Big Dipper / Double Dipper whatever in that area was a HUGE mistake in my book.

The Needles Eye lift while convenient, was a pretty stupid install if you ask me.  When you look at all of the lifts that needed upgrading at that time; Skye Peak, Snowdon lifts etc, why in the world you'd make an investment right there when you already had the gondola makes no sense. 

And I'd like to see something to back up your land swap claims on shutting down Sunrise.  Maybe some undeveloped real estate land on the sides of the trail, but there's no way the forest service or any other interested parties benefits from closing the lower trails, lift and base lodge.  I don't buy that. If you can show some reasonable proof that I'm wrong fine, but to me it looked like a cost cutting move, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I stand corrected.  However, nowadays people treat Pres Smith like he's some sort of god.  While the Canyon lift is nice as it avoids the run out you used to have to take to get to the old double, the whole destroying of Big Dipper / Double Dipper whatever in that area was a HUGE mistake in my book.
> 
> 
> *Agreed. Should have never touched Dipper in the first place.*
> ...


..


----------



## mondeo (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> *The Needles lift is a great lift. You need to learn the area, not just what's on the trail map. I can help you with that if we ever ski together there.*


You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.


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## RENO (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> 2) What's wrong with the Needles Eye HSQ? It's a great lift that Powdr Corp rarely runs but ASC ran it all the time. There are plenty of unmarked stashes off that lift that you can lap due to that lift. NE HSQ is a gem of a lift and never has a line, unlike the gondi across the trail.


I agree, that lift is barely used other than weekends. I don't like using the Skyeship midweek most of the time and like to do laps on Needles HSQ . I've asked Tom about that and they just say that NHSQ accesses the same terrain as the Skyeship so it's not needed during midweek. I say just run them both at least Friday - Monday. I think ASC was doing the same thing during it's last couple seasons also to save a $...


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.



that's the point I'm making, but more so that the Skye Peak lift should have taken much higher priority over the Needles Eye lift.  And I disagree with JJ on Snowdon.  I'd much rather a HSQ over there than on Needles.  As for the comment about knowing Killington.  While I haven't skied there in 8 years, my family had a home right down the road near Lake Rescue.  We were Okemo pass holders, but I skied Killington at least 50 times during the 80's and early 90's.  I know the mountain well.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.



It serves many purposes. First and foremost, on a busy day, it alleviates wating 20 minutes for the gondi. Remember, on a busy day, most of those gondi cars are full when they get up to the midstation at Needles. Very little room for loading at the Needles midstation in those cars on a busy day.

Second, it completely let's you avoid the cluster F that Powdr Corp has created at the top of Skye Peak. You been anywhere near the top of the Skye Peak Quad on a Saturday or Holiday? They're gonna need to rethink that whole area in the near future if they haven't already. Total cluster F with way to many beginners being funneled onto trails they shouldn't be on.

The only problem I can see about the NE Quad is that it doesn't go high enough like the old one did. With the current lift, you cannot access Upper Needles, Upper Dreamaker, Thimble, or any of the unmarked runs in between. 

I understand the ROI arguement, but the lift is already there. Run it all the time.


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## skiadikt (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> It serves many purposes. First and foremost, on a busy day, it alleviates wating 20 minutes for the gondi. Remember, on a busy day, most of those gondi cars are full when they get up to the midstation at Needles. Very little room for loading at the Needles midstation in those cars on a busy day.
> 
> Second, it completely let's you avoid the cluster F that Powdr Corp has created at the top of Skye Peak. You been anywhere near the top of the Skye Peak Quad on a Saturday or Holiday? They're gonna need to rethink that whole area in the near future if they haven't already. Total cluster F with way to many beginners being funneled onto trails they shouldn't be on.
> 
> ...



agree.

at that time, the needles lift was a very old double (the original k chair) and needed replacing more so than snowden where a fixed grip quad had recently replaced the double and skye peak quad which was also a relatively new lift. in addition it led to the development of an expanded trail pod including vertigo, cruise control & needles liftline.

one can argue that it should have gone higher and that it should run mid-week but on weekends you NEED that chair.


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## skiadikt (Jul 24, 2009)

as for replacing the snowden quad with an hsq, no one complained when the bush replaced castlerock with another double and mad river replaced the single with another single. same thing with the snowden quad. an hsq there will totally change the character of the tree skiing in that area. those runs would be garbage by 10am. i'd certainly like to them do whatever they can to improve operation of the lift so that it can run at it's rated speed most of the time without all the stopping. but NO to an hsq.


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## mondeo (Jul 24, 2009)

skiadikt said:


> as for replacing the snowden quad with an hsq, no one complained when the bush replaced castlerock with another double and mad river replaced the single with another single. same thing with the snowden quad. an hsq there will totally change the character of the tree skiing in that area. those runs would be garbage by 10am. i'd certainly like to them do whatever they can to improve operation of the lift so that it can run at it's rated speed most of the time without all the stopping. but NO to an hsq.


I'm still wondering about a HSQ with an unload around the triple, and make it a slightly tedious traverse if you want to ski North Star, Vagabond, Great Bear, Low Rider, or Patsy's. Get the HSQ-loving peeps up the hill quickly and comfortably, but only those that know there's a reason to traverse do so. The masses that would destroy those runs aren't going to do anything other than point their skis downhill.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Agree that a HSQ in the same place would kill the reason to ride the chair, Chute's scraped off by 10am as it is on weekends.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> I'm still wondering about a HSQ with an unload around the triple, and make it a slightly tedious traverse if you want to ski North Star, Vagabond, Great Bear, Low Rider, or Patsy's. Get the HSQ-loving peeps up the hill quickly and comfortably, but only those that know there's a reason to traverse do so. The masses that would destroy those runs aren't going to do anything other than point their skis downhill.
> 
> Just my thoughts on the matter. Agree that a HSQ in the same place would kill the reason to ride the chair, Chute's scraped off by 10am as it is on weekends.



Why would you want 2 lifts unloading at the exact same place at the top of Snowdon, or are you saying do away with the triple altogether?


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## skiadikt (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Why would you want 2 lifts unloading at the exact same place at the top of Snowdon, or are you saying do away with the triple altogether?



i might be cool with them replacing the quad with an hsq and losing the triple but there'd still be a lot more traffic in there since you be able to get at least twice as many runs in. sometimes you have to protect us from ourselves ...


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

skiadikt said:


> i might be cool with them replacing the quad with an hsq and losing the triple but there'd still be a lot more traffic in there since you be able to get at least twice as many runs in. sometimes you have to protect us from ourselves ...



Having only one Snowdon lift will create huge liftlines at that lift during weekends and holidays. One of the beautiful things about the quad is you can normally ski right on, even on a busy day.

They should just leave Snowdon the way it is. They rarely run the triple anyway. No harm no foul. Leave that area alone. I've spent entire days on the Snowdon Quad. So have you. Nothing better when the conditions are right and the goods are good. Leave it alone.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> There was a land swap deal for that area and it involved a lot more than Parker's Gore. Do some research. You will find it.



Sunrise was not part of the land swap deal.  It operated for 3 years after the land swap.  The swap basicly traded parkers gore, the land southwest of Killington Peak, for basin land to build the base village.  Pico had been purchased, and the focus of development changed to the interconnect.  Sunrise was originally intended to link over to the solitude/juggernaut/south ridge area, then parkers gore.  If we had gotten all that, plus the pico interconnect, Killington would have been around 2000 acres.  They should down sunrise because of:  lack of traffic vs. operating cost, an aging long triple chair, inferior access vs. the Skyeship, and no future for parkers gore.

AFAIK, they still have rights to operate over there, and the snowmobile tours do (or did for a while).  I think they pulled out much of the snowmaking pipe but don't know for sure.  The lift towers obviouly have not been removed.  Personally, I wish they would install a used double chair over there, and some basic snowmaking on the steeps.  It would be fun on busy weekends or very cold/windy days.

Major problem with laying off your full time, experienced staff, is that you don't have enough to be people capable of modifying and relocating lifts, in house.  You have to go to a contractor or buy new.  Back in the 60's-90's, they had lots of staff and could modify and build lifts as they pleased.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 24, 2009)

amazing that a second tier east coast resort like Killington is getting so much response..


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

mondeo said:


> You're missing the point. It's a great lift for those that use it, but its ROI is squat. It was a dumb business move that didn't bring any additional business to Killington, certainly hasn't paid itself off. The money would have been better spent elsewhere.



The Needles Eye and Northbrook quads were built when ASC was planning to connect Killington to Pico and potentially be able to handle 1.4 million skier visits a year, with a base village taking away basin parking.  They would have needed the extra capacity in the NEQ, with the skyeship being stuffed with people coming up from route 4.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 24, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Sunrise was not part of the land swap deal.  It operated for 3 years after the land swap.  The swap basicly traded parkers gore, the land southwest of Killington Peak, for basin land to build the base village.  Pico had been purchased, and the focus of development changed to the interconnect.  Sunrise was originally intended to link over to the solitude/juggernaut/south ridge area, then parkers gore.  If we had gotten all that, plus the pico interconnect, Killington would have been around 2000 acres.  They should down sunrise because of:  lack of traffic vs. operating cost, an aging long triple chair, inferior access vs. the Skyeship, and no future for parkers gore.
> 
> AFAIK, they still have rights to operate over there, and the snowmobile tours do (or did for a while).  I think they pulled out much of the snowmaking pipe but don't know for sure.  The lift towers obviouly have not been removed.  Personally, I wish they would install a used double chair over there, and some basic snowmaking on the steeps.  It would be fun on busy weekends or very cold/windy days.
> 
> Major problem with laying off your full time, experienced staff, is that you don't have enough to be people capable of modifying and relocating lifts, in house.  You have to go to a contractor or buy new.  Back in the 60's-90's, they had lots of staff and could modify and build lifts as they pleased.



IIRC from reading Lorentz's book, ASC gave up Sunrise in exchange for getting water from the Woodward Reservoir.


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## mister moose (Jul 24, 2009)

skiadikt said:


> as for replacing the snowden quad with an hsq, no one complained when the bush replaced castlerock with another double and mad river replaced the single with another single. same thing with the snowden quad. an hsq there will totally change the character of the tree skiing in that area. those runs would be garbage by 10am. i'd certainly like to them do whatever they can to improve operation of the lift so that it can run at it's rated speed most of the time without all the stopping. but NO to an hsq.



May I have an Amen.

POWDR's best move in the next few years is to improve the services they offer, not upgrade lifts.  A longer season, a friendlier and more competent lift staff, better food, some paint and repairs is all this skier needs.  I really don't care about a 12 minute lift ride vs a 7 minute lift ride.  That goes for anywhere on the mountain.

Many areas have spent themselves into oblivion, and miss the basics.

64 days last year, many of them at Killington, and many of those on Snowdon.  The quad runs just fine...  whereas I have seen some very faulty loading procedures by the lifties.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Having only one Snowdon lift will create huge liftlines at that lift during weekends and holidays. One of the beautiful things about the quad is you can normally ski right on, even on a busy day.
> 
> They should just leave Snowdon the way it is. They rarely run the triple anyway. No harm no foul. Leave that area alone. I've spent entire days on the Snowdon Quad. So have you. Nothing better when the conditions are right and the goods are good. Leave it alone.



Best option I can think of for snowdon is to replace the quad with a HSQ, perhaps with long chair spacing to limit capacity, or even relocate the NEQ to replace the snowdon quad.  Then take the snowdon quad and use it to replace the snowdon triple, except end it at the top of conclusion/GN/Highline intersecton, and move the base uphill about 100 ft.  Thus, that would give you good access to the top, while directing the racers and bumpers over to their part of the trail pod.  Moving the base of the triple up would provide much better access to the K-1 for people coming from Ramshead, and you could put snowmaking on lower mouse run and use that instaid of bunny buster, for access to the base.  Connect the side of mouse trap with lower bunny buster, and you get a nice intermedate bump run.

(this thread would not be complete without a map)

Basicly, I threw a bunch of ideas on here which may or may not be feasable. 

- Replacing the quad with a lift that went down to the edge of the vale lot, which would mess up some good trees, but would be a cool natural lift line.
- A trail from the mixing bowl down to the canyon, which would require massive grading on a steep hillside.  But is is intended to replace great northern.
- see what else you can spot. 







Here's an interconnect map while we're at it:


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Sunrise was not part of the land swap deal.  It operated for 3 years after the land swap.  The swap basicly traded parkers gore, the land southwest of Killington Peak, for basin land to build the base village.  Pico had been purchased, and the focus of development changed to the interconnect.  Sunrise was originally intended to link over to the solitude/juggernaut/south ridge area, then parkers gore.  If we had gotten all that, plus the pico interconnect, Killington would have been around 2000 acres.  They should down sunrise because of:  lack of traffic vs. operating cost, an aging long triple chair, inferior access vs. the Skyeship, and no future for parkers gore.
> 
> AFAIK, they still have rights to operate over there, and the snowmobile tours do (or did for a while).  I think they pulled out much of the snowmaking pipe but don't know for sure.  The lift towers obviouly have not been removed.  Personally, I wish they would install a used double chair over there, and some basic snowmaking on the steeps.  It would be fun on busy weekends or very cold/windy days.
> 
> Major problem with laying off your full time, experienced staff, is that you don't have enough to be people capable of modifying and relocating lifts, in house.  You have to go to a contractor or buy new.  Back in the 60's-90's, they had lots of staff and could modify and build lifts as they pleased.



Not true. Tapping the Woodward res and the interconnect were 2 very big parts of that land swap.

Also, can you PLEASE LEARN HOW TO MAKE YOUR PICTURES SMALLER????


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Not true. Tapping the Woodward res and the interconnect were 2 very big parts of that land swap.
> 
> Also, can you PLEASE LEARN HOW TO MAKE YOUR PICTURES SMALLER????



Sorry, I believe you are incorrect.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

Here's a rare shot of devil's fiddle with snowmaking (not mine):


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## Greg (Jul 24, 2009)

FYI - I'll leave this thread open for discussion, but I'm heading off on vacation starting tomorrow so I won't have time to distill all this down into 10 questions. I'll get at it when I return.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Of course I am. Someday I hope to have your knowledge of all things skiing and your intelligence in general. I mean, come on, you are one of the op 30 skiers at Killington, right? Who better to mold myself after. I concede to your greatness.



I'm not trying to pick a fight here, please go out and do more research.  One of the reasons sunrise was closed was the expansion plans after the land swap, but it was not a direct condition of the land swap.  The swap did buy them leverage for village development, the interconnect and the woodward pipe.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/49858-abandones-slopes-killington-3.html#post395986



Highway Star said:


> It was clearly a combination of factors leading to the NEP closure after 98-99.
> 
> First of all, for clarification, Parkers Gore is located off the south west of Killington Peak, facing Rutland, visable off the back of Killington Peak.  It is more or less directly west of NEP, on the other side of juggarnaut.
> 
> ...


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Of course I am. Someday I hope to have your knowledge of all things skiing and your intelligence in general. I mean, come on, you are one of the op 30 skiers at Killington, right? Who better to mold myself after. I concede to your greatness.



I've read all this stuff previously......

Page 6:

http://www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup/decisions/2000/1r0835-eb-fco.pdf



> 2. In 1968, Killington acquired from the State of Vermont 400 acres of land in
> Killington Basin and began planning and development in what is now referred to
> as the resort’s “400 Acre Planned Unit Development” (“400 Acre PUD”).
> 
> ...


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> One of the reasons sunrise was closed was the expansion plans after the land swap, but it was not a direct condition of the land swap.  The swap did buy them leverage for village development, the interconnect and the woodward pipe.



How is that different from what I said? 

OK, enough. You win. As previously stated, I concede. No need to respond to this.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> IIRC from reading Lorentz's book, ASC gave up Sunrise in exchange for getting water from the Woodward Reservoir.




Not trying to be a jerk or over-argue this, but it comes up all the time and people tend to get things mixed up...

Here's the permits for the pipeline.........somewhat interesting reading.  Approved Nov. 1997.  Sunrise closed after the '98-'99 season, but not because of the pipeline.

http://www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup/decisions/1998/1r0813-5-eb-fco.pdf
http://www.nrb.state.vt.us/lup/decisions/1998/1r0813-5-eb-lup.pdf


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## RootDKJ (Jul 24, 2009)

Can we get the "free" wings back at happy hour at the  bars on the access road?


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 24, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> Can we get the "free" wings back at happy hour at the  bars on the access road?



Yoshi still has free wings. General Tsao's wings. Not too bad.

As far as the other 3 ex-free wing establishments go, get to know your bartenders and be nice to them. That's all I'm saying.


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## icedtea (Jul 24, 2009)

Noel's has free wings that are pretty good.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 24, 2009)

mister moose said:


> I really don't care about a 12 minute lift ride vs a 7 minute lift ride. .



You are the exact opposite of me..it's 2009 there should be more high speed lifts..especially if a place charges 90 bucks a day


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## andyzee (Jul 24, 2009)

Does this thread have any questions for Killington? :smash:


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## icedtea (Jul 24, 2009)

Question:

Can you move the shark fin from the skye peak lift line?


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## salida (Jul 24, 2009)

You can already use the interconnect in one direction.  Just bring your long poles!


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## icedtea (Jul 24, 2009)

Or park a car at Wheelerville.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

salida said:


> You can already use the interconnect in one direction.  Just bring your long poles!



I'm curious about skiing from Killington to Pico, see this thread:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27048



			
				Highway Star said:
			
		

> Just wanted to post this up and kick it around a bit.  The maps are a traversing route from the top of the rams head quad, over to the bottom of the summit glades at pico.  It follows the contours of the hillside.  Was thinking about doing it last year but didn't really give it a try.
> 
> This route is roughly 2-1/2 miles, with a 500ft vertical drop, which works out to a 4% grade.  That's pretty flat, but still traverseable on firmer snow.  I think it would be virtually impossible in powder snow.  It would put you out at the bottom of the summit glades, with access to the summit quad.  Are the trees too dense anywhere?  Is it too rocky or are there bad ravines/gullys?  Stream crossings?
> 
> ...


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## RootDKJ (Jul 24, 2009)

icedtea said:


> Question:
> 
> Can you move the shark fin from the skye peak lift line?


Lol. I'm amazed after all these years nobody ha
s taken a big old sledgehammer to that during the off-season.


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## Highway Star (Jul 24, 2009)

icedtea said:


> Question:
> 
> Can you move the shark fin from the skye peak lift line?



I think I had suggested earlier in this thread that they take that whole area of lower Wildfire, Skye Quad liftline, Growler, and join it all together into one huge glade/extreme terrain park, as a continuation of the stash.  There are some excellent rock/cliff lines clearly seen to both sides of the liftline, that would ski much better with some trimming of the trees (they are just too tight right now).  It's really not even that much work, just taking out the worst of the stumps in the liftline, some deadfall/brush in the woods, etc.  Oh, and moving the park....

Chris, can you do something like that?  Thanks!!!


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## thetrailboss (Jul 24, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Not trying to be a jerk or over-argue this, but it comes up all the time and people tend to get things mixed up...
> 
> Here's the permits for the pipeline.........somewhat interesting reading.  Approved Nov. 1997.  Sunrise closed after the '98-'99 season, but not because of the pipeline.
> 
> ...




2000:  Snowmaking Pipeline to Woodward Reservoir Completed; increases snowmaking capacity 30%.

SOURCE:  Lorentz, pp 344.  

As to when it was permitted, that was earlier in 1997.  

The NEP Lift was relocated in 1999.  Lorentz 285.  Reason: no point in having it since Parker Gore was a no-go.


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## Geoff (Jul 24, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> that's the point I'm making, but more so that the Skye Peak lift should have taken much higher priority over the Needles Eye lift.  And I disagree with JJ on Snowdon.  I'd much rather a HSQ over there than on Needles.  As for the comment about knowing Killington.  While I haven't skied there in 8 years, my family had a home right down the road near Lake Rescue.  We were Okemo pass holders, but I skied Killington at least 50 times during the 80's and early 90's.  I know the mountain well.



In my opinion, a high speed quad will destroy the skiing surface on Snowdon.   It has nothing to do with uphill capacity.   People don't ride the Snowdon quad midweek so the total 7-day traffic on the natural snow terrain is very light relative to the rest of the mountain.   Snowdon and Southridge are the only good natural snow surface left.   Please don't wreck either of them with high speed lifts.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 24, 2009)

Geoff said:


> In my opinion, a high speed quad will destroy the skiing surface on Snowdon.   It has nothing to do with uphill capacity.   People don't ride the Snowdon quad midweek so the total 7-day traffic on the natural snow terrain is very light relative to the rest of the mountain.   Snowdon and Southridge are the only good natural snow surface left.   Please don't wreck either of them with high speed lifts.



Fair enough, you would know.

I'm not sure whether or not I'd agree with you if K was my home hill.  I never wished that Stowe didn't have the Gondola or Forerunner HSQ and wasn't upset when they replaced the Big Pig with the HSQ on Spruce. 


Pretty much the only two lifts I can think of that I would never want to see go high speed are the MRG single and Castlerock


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## mountainman (Jul 24, 2009)

*It is what it is.*

This is not a question.  Once a the leader in the industry is now just a follower. Yes the mountain will always be there, but not the leaders any more. The mountian is becoming just another mountain. Sad but true. The terrain will never change which it's is best selling point. Losing the longest ski season has not help. The most powerful snowmaking system is not what is use to be. Grooming has become medicore at best. Killington was built on a lot of creative people  that have worked their over the years. The mountain used to sell itself, but other resort have given more than Killington in the past 10 years. Like the title say's it is what it is. Enjoy the mountain for what it is, cause it will always be there. No need to ask a question. 
It's sad that all of the bussiness on the access road are paying the price for once what use to be the leaders in the industry. Will it ever change for the good only time will tell.


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## BigK (Jul 24, 2009)




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## BigK (Jul 24, 2009)

Question 1:

Will there be any changes in Lift operations for the upcoming season or should we expect the same as last year?

Question 2:

Will there be any changes in the early season snowmaking / expansion from what unfolded last season? 

Question 3:

Is there anything new to report about the interconnect? Some type of timeline with a PDF map with the Interconnect and Village would be welcome!

Question 4: 

Can we please have a longer season and return to the Beast of the East?

Question 5:

Is there any Janitorial positions available for the upcoming winter season? If so, is a GED needed for this position? Thanks


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## icedtea (Jul 25, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> I think I had suggested earlier in this thread that they take that whole area of lower Wildfire, Skye Quad liftline, Growler, and join it all together into one huge glade/extreme terrain park, as a continuation of the stash.  There are some excellent rock/cliff lines clearly seen to both sides of the liftline, that would ski much better with some trimming of the trees (they are just too tight right now).  It's really not even that much work, just taking out the worst of the stumps in the liftline, some deadfall/brush in the woods, etc.  Oh, and moving the park....
> 
> Chris, can you do something like that?  Thanks!!!



There is definitely some nice cliffs line throughout that whole area. Killington should embrace its glade skiing some more. A little maintenance in some of these places would go a long way.


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## Newpylong (Jul 25, 2009)

In my opinion, the sooner the two clunkers on Snowdon can be replaced, the better. I do think a high speed lift would have an effect on skiing conditions - but not as much as many people are predicting. It is some of the best skiing on the mountain, but a lot of times I'm not even in the mood to bother with it because of the Quadrapalegic.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 25, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> In my opinion, the sooner the two clunkers on Snowdon can be replaced, the better. I do think a high speed lift would have an effect on skiing conditions - but not as much as many people are predicting. It is some of the best skiing on the mountain, but a lot of times I'm not even in the mood to bother with it because of the Quadrapalegic.



I agree..those Snowdon runs are fun but 10 minutes+ for a 1,000 vert fixed grip lift is crazy..reminds me of back before they had the high speeds at Blue..


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## icedtea (Jul 25, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> I agree..those Snowdon runs are fun but 10 minutes+ for a 1,000 vert fixed grip lift is crazy..reminds me of back before they had the high speeds at Blue..




Haha....I guess you wouldn't be up for the late season hike to the top of snowdon for some goods.

Snowdon is a great spot, that lift keeps the gapers and day trippers away, some great pow stashes there which do not get tracked as quick as spots off K1.

I'd like to see the South Ridge Triple replaced, the last stretch can be brutal and the stashes there are definitely less well known and some even require hiking which will keep most away.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2009)

As much as I can appreciate fixed grip lifts reducing traffic and prolonging Powder, I think people over estimate the impact.  You're talking about something getting tracked out maybe 2 hours faster with high speed lift.  2 hours, and that might be an exageration.  At a place like Killington that is SO HUGE, I'm not even sure that that would be the case.  I say leave the slow lifts at Castlerock and MRG because the terrain acreage is much smaller, but also of far better quality / demand on a Powder day that at those place I think the difference would be huge.

At the end of the day, this is the East we're talking about here.  Maybe 1 day in 7 is a powder day....maybe.  Preserving a couple of hours of tracks isn't enough of a benefit for me to deal with a crappy slow lift the rest of the season.  Snowdon has some of the better cruising terrain at K, but dealing with those crappy lifts to ski it always annoyed me.


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## icedtea (Jul 25, 2009)

For the most part I only get up on the weekends, this will be especially true this season.. So those extra 2 hours of fresh powder are PRICELESS


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## BushMogulMaster (Jul 25, 2009)

Just a friendly technical reminder: detachable quads may make an area more trafficked due to increased "desirability" of the fast lift, but they do not necessarily increase capacity.  In fact, it is perfectly normal to see a detachable quad with a lower hourly capacity than a neighboring fixed grip.  The industry average is 2400 people per hour on a quad, regardless of fixed vs. detachable grip.


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## Geoff (Jul 25, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Just a friendly technical reminder: detachable quads may make an area more trafficked due to increased "desirability" of the fast lift, but they do not necessarily increase capacity.  In fact, it is perfectly normal to see a detachable quad with a lower hourly capacity than a neighboring fixed grip.  The industry average is 2400 people per hour on a quad, regardless of fixed vs. detachable grip.



That's not the point.   Midweek, Snowdon is mostly ignored and it sees less people on weekends than the other lifts.   If they put a high speed quad there, the surface would have the snot beat out of it.   It's not the speed of the lift or the capacity that impacts the skiing surface, it's how many people ride the lift per day.

The other advantage of the existing quad is that it's always running.  It can spin in high winds.  It is relatively quick to de-ice.  If you put a high speed quad there, it will be closed a lot just like Superstar.  You can still navigate the mountain in big wind with the Snowdon quad and the Glades triple.  You'd have people parked at Bear getting stranded when there's no way to get back because all the detatchable lifts are on wind hold.

Like I said, I'm totally happy Killington doesn't have the money to replace that lift.   The first place Killington should address to fix lift line bottlenecks with extra uphill capacity is the Rams Head high speed quad.  That is invariably the worst lift line on the mountain and the people using the lift are the premium day ticket people.   I'd run a second high speed quad up to the top of Rams Head.   That would be big bang for the buck since it opens up some new intermediate acres.  The other thing that's needed far more than a Snowdon upgrade is a second high speed lift to get people out of Snowshed.  The people here are focused on the advanced terrain.  The big spenders with kids who book lodging through the Killington 800 number and buy full price day tickets start their life at Snowshed and Rams Head.   The experience there right now is awful.


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## icedtea (Jul 25, 2009)

OPEN BITTERSWEET HEADWALL!

Trim up Old Superstar a Bit!!


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## Highway Star (Jul 25, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Just a friendly technical reminder: detachable quads may make an area more trafficked due to increased "desirability" of the fast lift, but they do not necessarily increase capacity.  In fact, it is perfectly normal to see a detachable quad with a lower hourly capacity than a neighboring fixed grip.  The industry average is 2400 people per hour on a quad, regardless of fixed vs. detachable grip.



True, but not the whole story.  

800 people could take 3 runs per hour on the snowdon quad - 10 minutes riding the lift, and 10 minutes skiing, times 3.  Put those 800 people on a HSQ, and they will spend 5 minutes in line, 5 on the lift, and 10 skiing.  However, if only 600 people show up, they will get 4 runs in per hour, with no waiting, taking 2400 skier-runs per hour.  If 600 people ski on the current snowdon quad, they will only be able to take 1800 skier-runs per hour.  *Thus, until capacity is reached and there is a signifigant wait, the HSQ will be putting 1/3 more traffic on the trails and snow surface.*  I don't think this an insignifgant difference, considering midweek traffic levels.


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## tcharron (Jul 25, 2009)

Guys, these threads are for AZ challenge questions.


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## Highway Star (Jul 25, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Guys, these threads are for AZ challenge questions.



See back a couple pages:



Greg said:


> FYI - I'll leave this thread open for discussion, but I'm heading off on vacation starting tomorrow so I won't have time to distill all this down into 10 questions. I'll get at it when I return.



So I think we're good as long as it remains civilized.  Thanks Greg!


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## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> See back a couple pages:
> 
> 
> 
> So I think we're good as long as it remains civilized.  Thanks Greg!



I had considered splitting off a separate 'discussion' thread and moving non-question posts over there, but figured it would be pretty silly of me considering that I have been one of the ones taking this thread off track. :lol:

At any rate, there are plenty of questions in here, you just have to dig for them.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 25, 2009)

icedtea said:


> OPEN BITTERSWEET HEADWALL!




when/why was this closed?


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## icedtea (Jul 25, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> when/why was this closed?




Last season they re-configured Bittersweet. They roped off the headwall, which is not hard to poach, I just do not see a reason to have it closed.  If they gated it similar to when you enter the "double black" portion of cascade or something should do the trick.

A lot of people were injured on that trail in previous years.


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## skiadikt (Jul 26, 2009)

BushMogulMaster said:


> Just a friendly technical reminder: detachable quads may make an area more trafficked due to increased "desirability" of the fast lift, but they do not necessarily increase capacity.  In fact, it is perfectly normal to see a detachable quad with a lower hourly capacity than a neighboring fixed grip.  The industry average is 2400 people per hour on a quad, regardless of fixed vs. detachable grip.



i second what geoff says. also capacity isn't necessarily the issue here. if me & my group, geoff & his friends, ice tea & his krewe etc are all getting twice as many runs per hour, the snow surface is going to be trashed much quicker regardless of whether the capacity is the same. also regarding DHS's comment, don't see why mad river & sugarbush are exempt from this. compared to those areas, k has way more lift capacity for the terrain and the last the thing it needs is more capacity (even if it's not real capacity as suggested by bmm).


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## Slowkemo (Jul 26, 2009)

Killington is so big and steep. I would like to see more mellow terrain out there. You know, more stuff that is like possible to ski for those of us that aren't experts.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 26, 2009)

Slowkemo said:


> Killington is so big and steep. I would like to see more mellow terrain out there. You know, more stuff that is like possible to ski for those of us that aren't experts.



times 2


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## Highway Star (Jul 26, 2009)

Slowkemo said:


> Killington is so big and steep. I would like to see more mellow terrain out there. You know, more stuff that is like possible to ski for those of us that aren't experts.



Try Pico, serious!

(wouldn't be great if they were connected?)


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## Newpylong (Jul 26, 2009)

Those are a lot of good points and there might be some options...

What is they replace the Ram's Head Quad with a Six Pack - and fix the lift line issues at the same time? Would that have enough of an effect on getting people out of that base area? I think this would work if they widened / did some grading and rerouting of Timberline / Horn off the real top of Ram's Head - and added snowmaking to Upper Swirl. That would essentially allow for the same downhill capacity that exists off the current top of the Quad - while leaving Upper Vagabond and Header alone as natural. I can see why they put the current Quad in the way they did - but I think it was short sighted / cheap to cut the top off. It should have been worked into the plan.

With that lift for use, you could remove both of the Snowshed doubles, and install the Quad in it's place. That would allow that lift to become the new main lift (being newer) and allow the current Snowshed quad to be weekend and holiday.

Essentially buying one lift would fix two problems.




Geoff said:


> That's not the point.   Midweek, Snowdon is mostly ignored and it sees less people on weekends than the other lifts.   If they put a high speed quad there, the surface would have the snot beat out of it.   It's not the speed of the lift or the capacity that impacts the skiing surface, it's how many people ride the lift per day.
> 
> The other advantage of the existing quad is that it's always running.  It can spin in high winds.  It is relatively quick to de-ice.  If you put a high speed quad there, it will be closed a lot just like Superstar.  You can still navigate the mountain in big wind with the Snowdon quad and the Glades triple.  You'd have people parked at Bear getting stranded when there's no way to get back because all the detatchable lifts are on wind hold.
> 
> Like I said, I'm totally happy Killington doesn't have the money to replace that lift.   The first place Killington should address to fix lift line bottlenecks with extra uphill capacity is the Rams Head high speed quad.  That is invariably the worst lift line on the mountain and the people using the lift are the premium day ticket people.   I'd run a second high speed quad up to the top of Rams Head.   That would be big bang for the buck since it opens up some new intermediate acres.  The other thing that's needed far more than a Snowdon upgrade is a second high speed lift to get people out of Snowshed.  The people here are focused on the advanced terrain.  The big spenders with kids who book lodging through the Killington 800 number and buy full price day tickets start their life at Snowshed and Rams Head.   The experience there right now is awful.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 26, 2009)

I thought the primary issue of not running the Ramshead Quad to the top is wind and the fear that the lift would be shut down frequently.  As Ramshead is a 'learning' area of the mountain, having a lift that shuts frequently wouldn't be advised.


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## Geoff (Jul 26, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I thought the primary issue of not running the Ramshead Quad to the top is wind and the fear that the lift would be shut down frequently.  As Ramshead is a 'learning' area of the mountain, having a lift that shuts frequently wouldn't be advised.



That's why I'd run a 2nd high speed quad up to the top of Rams Head.   Midweek, when you only need one lift, you run the longer one unless wind forces you to run the shorter one.   Killington is very short on low-intermediate terrain and Rams Head is the one place where they can easily add more.

If the Texas people do rape & pillage the Killington basin area, the resort will need far more capacity at Snowshed since much of the main Killington parking lot capacity will vaporize.  Most people are going to want to ride a Snowshed lift to get to the rest of the resort rather than Rams Head which basically goes nowhere other than the Snowdon quad.


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## Highway Star (Jul 26, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Those are a lot of good points and there might be some options...
> 
> What is they replace the Ram's Head Quad with a Six Pack - and fix the lift line issues at the same time? Would that have enough of an effect on getting people out of that base area? I think this would work if they widened / did some grading and rerouting of Timberline / Horn off the real top of Ram's Head - and added snowmaking to Upper Swirl. That would essentially allow for the same downhill capacity that exists off the current top of the Quad - while leaving Upper Vagabond and Header alone as natural. I can see why they put the current Quad in the way they did - but I think it was short sighted / cheap to cut the top off. It should have been worked into the plan.
> 
> ...





deadheadskier said:


> I thought the primary issue of not running the Ramshead Quad to the top is wind and the fear that the lift would be shut down frequently.  As Ramshead is a 'learning' area of the mountain, having a lift that shuts frequently wouldn't be advised.





Geoff said:


> That's why I'd run a 2nd high speed quad up to the top of Rams Head.   Midweek, when you only need one lift, you run the longer one unless wind forces you to run the shorter one.   Killington is very short on low-intermediate terrain and Rams Head is the one place where they can easily add more.
> 
> If the Texas people do rape & pillage the Killington basin area, the resort will need far more capacity at Snowshed since much of the main Killington parking lot capacity will vaporize.  Most people are going to want to ride a Snowshed lift to get to the rest of the resort rather than Rams Head which basically goes nowhere other than the Snowdon quad.



All interesting ideas, but.......

- the current Rams Head trail configuration could not realisticly support more lift capacity.  Middle Header is already crowded enough on weekends with beginners on it.  

- the top of Rams Head, is too steep for beginners, even with signifigant trail widening and grading.  Plus they would not enjoy being exposed to the wind at the top.

- the full interconnect plan calls for 4 lifts, two of which combined bring you from futher down the access road, up to the top of the ridge.  Plus new trails.  Please see the map I posted several pages ago.  Will this ever happen?....err.  See map here:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/albums/album184/ICbasictow.jpg

- The most realistic and immediate solution is to fix the absurd lift corral configuration, and make sure chairs go up full when it's busy.  The could put an entrance on the south side of the maze, opposite where it is now, and a enrance on the north side.  Or anything.  Please.


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## RootDKJ (Jul 26, 2009)

I'll give HS a point for his last post. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing chairs go up with less than 4 people on it when it's super busy.


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## Geoff (Jul 26, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I'll give HS a point for his last post. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing chairs go up with less than 4 people on it when it's super busy.



The only way to enforce that is to start yanking tickets and passes of kids who refuse to load as 4.   That probably accounts for half on the empty seats I see when there's a big lift line.   The Jamacian liftie making minimum wage isn't going to give a rat's ass.   The way people repel boarders on Killington's 8-seater gondolas is even worse.


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## mister moose (Jul 26, 2009)

Killington already has 2 gondolas, and  5 HSQ lifts; Skye Peak, Needles, Superstar, Snowshed, Rams Head.  I really don't think adding another HSQ in replacement of an exisitng lift is going to drive more people to the mountain.  I don't even think the ROI on the new Skye Peak lift is going to be that good.

People are going to come for good value, good snow conditions, and good times.  None of that has HSQ witten on it.

If I was running Killington I'd be fixing a myriad of other issues, not spending another 5.7 Million on the next HSQ.  Killington needs to be a leader again, and the HSQ count just doesn't carry the same weight as season length, customer service, vibe, snow surface reliability, and well trained capable employees.

So back on topic, here's my question:

What is Killington doing this year to decrease the recovery time on both lifts and trails after a rain freeze event?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 26, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> I'll give HS a point for his last post. Nothing is more frustrating than seeing chairs go up with less than 4 people on it when it's super busy.



The liftline guys at Killington are good at scanning tickets but not good at organizing foursomes..they need to hire the guy from Blue mountain who organizes groups of 6 and keeps the VIP line in check!!!!


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## Highway Star (Jul 27, 2009)

mister moose said:


> Killington already has 2 gondolas, and  5 HSQ lifts; Skye Peak, Needles, Superstar, Snowshed, Rams Head.  I really don't think adding another HSQ in replacement of an exisitng lift is going to drive more people to the mountain.  I don't even think the ROI on the new Skye Peak lift is going to be that good.
> 
> People are going to come for good value, good snow conditions, and good times.  None of that has HSQ witten on it.
> 
> If I was running Killington I'd be fixing a myriad of other issues, not spending another 5.7 Million on the next HSQ.  Killington needs to be a leader again, and the HSQ count just doesn't carry the same weight as season length, customer service, vibe, snow surface reliability, and well trained capable employees.



............Or a Killington-Pico Interconnect!!!


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## RootDKJ (Jul 27, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> The liftline guys at Killington are good at scanning tickets but not good at organizing foursomes..they need to hire the guy from Blue mountain who organizes groups of 6 and keeps the VIP line in check!!!!


That's what I was thinking, but didn't feel like typing it out on my crackberry.


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## Newpylong (Jul 27, 2009)

Point 1 is probably very true without adding more trails.

Point 2 is not true. Swirl and Timerbline/Horn are virtually flat off the top. If widened they would be no more difficult than anything off the current Quad. Families negotiated the summit for year's with little to no snowmaking and much narrower trails.

Only Upper Header has any resemblance of a pitch - Vagabond as well.





Highway Star said:


> All interesting ideas, but.......
> 
> - the current Rams Head trail configuration could not realisticly support more lift capacity.  Middle Header is already crowded enough on weekends with beginners on it.
> 
> ...


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 27, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Point 1 is probably very true without adding more trails.
> 
> Point 2 is not true. Swirl and Timerbline/Horn are virtually flat off the top. If widened they would be no more difficult than anything off the current Quad. Families negotiated the summit for year's with little to no snowmaking and much narrower trails.
> 
> Only Upper Header has any resemblance of a pitch - Vagabond as well.



There was a bunch of other stuff off the top of the old RH double, just wasn't on the trail map, but it was there. A clip here, a snip there, and BAMM, you're back in business. 

And for the record, 1/2 of Vagabond is a lot less fun than ALL of Vagabond. I miss that old lift. There were some goods up there.


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## Highway Star (Jul 27, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> There was a bunch of other stuff off the top of the old RH double, just wasn't on the trail map, but it was there. A clip here, a snip there, and BAMM, you're back in business.



No there isn't.  Don't be misleading people!


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## icedtea (Jul 27, 2009)

There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.


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## Highway Star (Jul 27, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> Point 1 is probably very true without adding more trails.
> 
> Point 2 is not true. Swirl and Timerbline/Horn are virtually flat off the top. If widened they would be no more difficult than anything off the current Quad. Families negotiated the summit for year's with little to no snowmaking and much narrower trails.
> 
> Only Upper Header has any resemblance of a pitch - Vagabond as well.



Upper Swirl has enough pitch to be intimidating to a beginner.  And certainly not enough width.

Horn, and Rams Head Road, are both fairly narrow. I think they would have a tough time getting permission to take out more trees at the top of a relatively under developed ridgeline.  However, the interconnect lift on the Ram Head side does just that, so who knows.


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## Geoff (Jul 27, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> - the current Rams Head trail configuration could not realisticly support more lift capacity.  Middle Header is already crowded enough on weekends with beginners on it.
> 
> - the top of Rams Head, is too steep for beginners, even with signifigant trail widening and grading.  Plus they would not enjoy being exposed to the wind at the top.



Rams Head has a ton of acres to add trails.   They would be the kind of low-intermediate terrain Killington needs and they wouldn't have any of the nasty trail intersections that plague the rest of the resort.   Look at the number of people who get pumped up onto Skye Peak with an 8-seater gondola and three high speed quads.  In comparison, Rams Head is very light traffic.

The top part of Rams Head really isn't that steep.  The terrain these days is only challenging because of all the brush.  You'd have the original high speed quad on any busy day and on any wind day.

Lift corral reconfiguration isn't going to help with the 30 minute lift line.   That's what the big ticket customers see at Rams Head and Snowshed when they show up at 10:00.   Don't forget that the ski school uses that lift so the main corral only gets to use half the chairs during the peak busy periods.  It's bloody awful there.  I avoid it during any family period.


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## Highway Star (Jul 27, 2009)

icedtea said:


> There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.



Lies, all lies.  Killington only has groomers, some marginal bumps, and a few tree runs.  All the other woods are far too tight to be skiable.


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 27, 2009)

icedtea said:


> There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.



don't tell me this town ain't got no heart, 'cause I can hear it BEAT OUT LOUD....


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## Highway Star (Jul 27, 2009)

Geoff said:


> Rams Head has a ton of acres to add trails.   They would be the kind of low-intermediate terrain Killington needs and they wouldn't have any of the nasty trail intersections that plague the rest of the resort.   Look at the number of people who get pumped up onto Skye Peak with an 8-seater gondola and three high speed quads.  In comparison, Rams Head is very light traffic.
> 
> The top part of Rams Head really isn't that steep.  The terrain these days is only challenging because of all the brush.  You'd have the original high speed quad on any busy day and on any wind day.
> 
> Lift corral reconfiguration isn't going to help with the 30 minute lift line.   That's what the big ticket customers see at Rams Head and Snowshed when they show up at 10:00.   Don't forget that the ski school uses that lift so the main corral only gets to use half the chairs during the peak busy periods.  It's bloody awful there.  I avoid it during any family period.



A little overly dramatic on the lift lines, don't you think...?

The current trails on ramshead full of colisions and near misses when it's crowded.  More traffic would make that worse.  

The interconnect plan has a new lift north of the current one, from about mid mountain up to the ridge.  Plus a lift from the access road to mid mountain.  Look at the map (those lifts are not highlighted):

http://www.killingtonzone.com/albums/album184/ICbasictow.jpg

If anything, your new Ram Head lift would be installed instaid of both of those, as a 1,400 ft vert lift, roughly 6,000+ ft long.  Could be a 6-pack.  It would be a vert nice lift, servicing some great intermediate cruising, and maybe some woods, if they were developed.   Much more economical than two lifts.  I like it.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 27, 2009)

icedtea said:


> There are goods everywhere on Killington! REPEAT everywhere..you just gotta poke around.



If Killington only put these goods on the map...more people could take advantage of them..:lol:


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## jsul (Jul 27, 2009)

Has Killington ever considered extenting the spring ski season by adding spring mountain bike trials?  

Whistler ski resort uses it's lift access to combine mountain biking and spring skiing. The restaurants,shops and hotels have both skiers and bikers creating revenue. Annual snowfall totals are irrelevant to spring skiing. Killington used to blow snow on Superstar the entire month of January resulting in plenty of snow thru the month of May. But even if snow totals were low the spring pass would allow the avid outdoors person to bike. I just wonder if combining spring skiing with mountain bikers would create a viable revenue stream at a time when the mountain makes no money until the summer season begins. For example if the 2009-10 ski pass were to expire on say April 15th and a spring ski/mountain bike pass offered or simply daily tickets required after the April 15th. I believe this would have a small profit margin for the mountain. Help the restaurants, hotels and shop maintain a year round business and keep loyal customers committed to the once mighty K. I believe there is a market for avid outdoors people who hate to see the season end.


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## Highway Star (Jul 27, 2009)

jsul said:


> Has Killington ever considered extenting the spring ski season by adding spring mountain bike trials?
> 
> Whistler ski resort uses it's lift access to combine mountain biking and spring skiing. The restaurants,shops and hotels have both skiers and bikers creating revenue. Annual snowfall totals are irrelevant to spring skiing. Killington used to blow snow on Superstar the entire month of January resulting in plenty of snow thru the month of May. But even if snow totals were low the spring pass would allow the avid outdoors person to bike. I just wonder if combining spring skiing with mountain bikers would create a viable revenue stream at a time when the mountain makes no money until the summer season begins. I believe there is a market for avid outdoors people who hate to see the season end.



Yes.....back in the 1990's, the ski season overlapped with biking on both ends.  There are some pictures with both bikes and people on skis on the old Killington Double.  In this spring, I think they started running the Skyeship for biking for a while, Superstar was still open for skiing.  This created year-round activity in the town.

The current strategy shuts the town down for 2 months in the spring and about a month in the fall.  They just completely lose momentum with visits.   Most of the businesses shut down too.

If they are planning to build this "Ski Village", they have to come up with a better strategy to sustain skier visits in the off season.  Killington has lost it's *killer-app** of the 8-month ski season that kept people intersted nearly year round.  The biking offering is not competitive with Mt. Snow, Highland (near Boston), or Diablo (mt. creek, NJ).  They pulled out the waterslide, which wasn't much of an attraction anyway.  

(*A *killer application* (commonly shortened to killer app), in the jargon of computer programmers and video gamers, has been used to refer to any computer program that is *so necessary or desirable that it proves the core value* of some larger technology, such as computer hardware like a gaming console, operating system or other software. A killer app can substantially increase sales of the platform that it runs on.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_application

*Question:* what can Killington offer during the summer that is worth driving 3-5 hours for, that people can't do cheaper and better somewhere closer?  It's not shopping, it's certainly not golfing, and the biking is ok, but not all that.  Personally, I think they need summertime high elevation skiing on the peak using an IDE warm weather snowmaking system...but that's a long shot.  Maybe they just need a proper critical mass of activities, attractions, and events......?

Pics from 10/5/96, not mine, note the bike.
BTW, they closed on JUNE 22 that season.



























Source:

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13435&hilit=bike+ski+double


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## deadheadskier (Jul 27, 2009)

HWS is correct.  They did overlap.

I recall skiing Superstar in the morning then MTBing in the afternoon on a couple of occasions.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 27, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> Yes.....back in the 1990's, the ski season overlapped with biking on both ends.  There are some pictures with both bikes and people on skis on the old Killington Double.  In this spring, I think they started running the Skyeship for biking for a while, Superstar was still open for skiing.  This created year-round activity in the town.
> 
> The current strategy shuts the town down for 2 months in the spring and about a month in the fall.  They just completely lose momentum with visits.   Most of the businesses shut down too.
> 
> ...




Nice stoke!!!!  I remember where I was and also what I had for dinner that day,..I was a senior in high school and jealous of the reports I read from that day on the internet..and I had a Bacon Steezeburger that day with my Aunt, Mom and Dad at Rookies..


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## Newpylong (Jul 27, 2009)

HWS, it's tough to tell what were proposed lifts and which are just lines on that map. Am I seeing that there really were 3 lifts proposed between Snowdon and Ram's Head? Are they out of their mind?

It seems like that plan is in typical K-Mart fashion, put in a bunch of lifts and a clusterf*ck of trails. 

Can you repost that with current lifts in red and proposed in green instead?

If the interconnect ever goes through does it have to be this plan because it is already permitted? Looks terrible...


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## jaytrem (Jul 27, 2009)

Anybody else miss the triathlon?  Ski/mt bike/trail run, what could be better?  In the "glory days" it would sell out every year long before the event.  I typically did well in the skiing, pretty good in the bike, then horrible in the run.  One year I crashed the skiing, got a bunch of mud in my eye on the bike, and puked on the run.  Great time though!!!  Might as well make an offical question out of this.  

Any chance of bringing back the triathlon? Even if it was a few week earlier.


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## Highway Star (Jul 28, 2009)

Newpylong said:


> HWS, it's tough to tell what were proposed lifts and which are just lines on that map. Am I seeing that there really were 3 lifts proposed between Snowdon and Ram's Head? Are they out of their mind?
> 
> It seems like that plan is in typical K-Mart fashion, put in a bunch of lifts and a clusterf*ck of trails.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah.....the original map pdf shows the snowdon quad as removed, replaced by those lifts you noticed.  Wacky.  It also includes a new south ridge lift, a lift around lower great eastern, and a lift replacing the snowshed doubles.  And the Needles Eye quad is drawn wrong.  

On the interconnect, as far as I know, they are permitted (act 250) for 4 lifts and roughly 110 acres of trails, as shown on that map I posted.  3 between the ramshead quad and little pico, and one on the south side of pico.  The permit is 1R0813-2 if you feel like requesting a copy - it's not online.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/site/cfm/act250/detail.cfm?ID=19146



> EXTEND CONSTUCTION DEADLINE FROM 8/14/01 TO 8/14/06 FOR PICO INTERCONNECT PROJECT, CONSISTS OF 4 CHAIRLIFTS & 110 ACRES OF SKI TRAIL W/SNOWMAKING



I just want to see them build the interconnect already.........meh.


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## BigK (Jul 28, 2009)

Why is Killington's food so.....?


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## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2009)

BigK said:


> Why is Killington's food so.....?



I'll field this one having worked in management of F&B at ski resorts for a few years.  High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of a few things:

1. High fixed cost of management.  Believe it or not, despite how simple the food is in most cafeterias and casual dining bars at ski resorts, it takes a fairly skilled management staff to pull off.  You have ZERO time to train staff because the bean counters won't let you start people working and training until essentially right before Christmas week.  It's 0-60 in a weekend before the busiest week of the year with maybe 25% returning staff at most areas.  So, that management staff needs to be talented enough to train quickly and willing to work 75-100 hours a week during peak season to keep the machine moving.  To get that type of person, you need to pay them well and keep them employed year round.  

2. Food Cost is based on the year and revenue hides mistakes.  You've essentially got 10 weeks to pad your numbers to look good for the year because aside from event weekends in the summer, you aren't doing squat for revenue, which drives food costs up.

3. Group Packages.  F&B gets screwed on these.  Group Sales books a group at $80 a day.  The package includes lunch.  F&B is kicked $10 for what would normally cost $12 ala carte.  So, to make that $2 back, they charge $14 to the individual ala carte customers.

4. Employee discounts.  Each place I worked the discount in the cafeteria's was around 50% and around 20%  in full service outlets.  Killington probably feeds 1000 employees a day each weekend on that discount.  

5. Theft.  There is no place like ski and beach communities where more free beers and food flies over the bar.  In cities it happens, but no where near the same degree.  The seasonal line level staff member doesn't care if he's ruining a resorts profit.  If he gets fired, he'll go work somewhere else in town that's desperate for help and move to a different resort all together the following season.

Despite those ridiculously high prices, F&B is routinely the least profitable revenue center at resorts and in many situations loses money as a loss leader amenity for guests.


So, don't expect food prices to change any time soon and there's little point in bitching about em.  It sucks, but the beauty of it has been the birth of great tailgating in the parking lot when the day is done.


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## mister moose (Jul 28, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll field this one having worked in management of F&B at ski resorts for a few years.  High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of a few things:
> 
> <snip>



I'm not buying it, and let me shorten it for you.

On the financial reports I read, F&B is a profit center, and a healthy one.
High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of one thing:  Captive audience.


*edit:
Ok, that was too short.  Yes, costs are higher for seasonal businesses in outlying areas.  (which is what #2 is about)  #3 and #4 are how you cut the revenue pie.  Arbitrary sometimes, and makes one department look good at the expense of another.  It's still revenue.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 28, 2009)

mister moose said:


> I'm not buying it, and let me shorten it for you.
> 
> On the financial reports I read, F&B is a profit center, and a healthy one.
> High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of one thing:  Captive audience.



Worked for Stowe, Intrawest and a smaller family owned area in Maryland.  I still have numerous former friends and co-workers in the ski business.  F&B is rarely a healthy profit center, especially in comparison to ski area ops and/or lodging.

Maybe it's healthy at Killington, but as a general rule, you are wrong.  

This is true of not just ski resorts, but of beach resorts, arenas, etc.  14 years of working in F&B operations and 2 years supplying these entities as my experience.  If 80% of restaurants close within 5 years in year round communities, what makes you think it's easier to make a buck in a seasonal business?  

As for Arenas, right now, the Boston Garden / Fleet Center whatever you want to call it is part of 20% of F&B operations in the entirety of the Delaware North Companies that is turning a profit.

It's easy to say captive audience, but that's far from correct.


----------



## mondeo (Jul 28, 2009)

mister moose said:


> I'm not buying it, and let me shorten it for you.
> 
> On the financial reports I read, F&B is a profit center, and a healthy one.
> High prices at ski resorts, ball parks etc are because of one thing:  Captive audience.


I'll combine the two, and make it even shorter:

Supply and demand.

I don't doubt the factors that DHS mention; the expenses associated with F&B dictate fairly low supply. Captive audience means demand is high. Low supply & high demand = high prices.


----------



## mister moose (Jul 28, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Worked for Stowe, Intrawest and a smaller family owned area in Maryland.  I still have numerous former friends and co-workers in the ski business.  F&B is rarely a healthy profit center, especially in comparison to ski area ops and/or lodging.
> 
> Maybe it's healthy at Killington, but as a general rule, you are wrong.
> 
> ...



I'm sure there are other areas large and small that have difficulty with F&B. But this is a Killington thread.

Captive audience means there is no alternative (ie some other independent vendor of that hamburger or beer), and it is entirely correct.

Never said it was easy for those on the battlefield dealing with all the challenges.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2009)

BigK said:


> Why is Killington's food so.....?



Who made that video? Anyone here?


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## JerseyJoey (Jul 29, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> Who made that video? Anyone here?



This is a relatively old video (A couple of years anyway.)

You can see the guys reflection in the second set of doors as he's entering the lodge at the very beginning of the video. Doesn't look like anyone I know.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 29, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> This is a relatively old video (A couple of years anyway.)
> 
> You can see the guys reflection in the second set of doors as he's entering the lodge at the very beginning of the video. Doesn't look like anyone I know.



He's probably not from Jersey due to the accent..plus Jersey-ittes are used to paying high prices for things..


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## skiadikt (Jul 29, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> He's probably not from Jersey due to the accent..plus Jersey-ittes are used to paying high prices for things..



sounds like someone from overseas. he even takes a shot at the museum of nat history in nyc.


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## Highway Star (Jul 29, 2009)

BigK said:


> Why is Killington's food so.....?



ROFLMAO...................





> All Comments (25 total)   Options  Post a new comment
> 
> Loading...murjax (1 year ago) Show Hide +1 Marked as spam Reply | Spam 3 dollars just for a water. Gosh. I've seen water cost up to 2 bucks but nothing near 3. *Just wait till we see the 4 dollar bottle﻿ of water lol. *
> NHRHS2010 (1 year ago) Show Hide Marked as spam Reply Agree. WAY too expensive. $7 for a soup!?! Too expensive. The same size bowl of soup﻿ only costs $1 at my school.
> ...


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## Geoff (Jul 30, 2009)

Highway Star said:


> ROFLMAO...................



Your post is retarded.   I am going to put it in a PowerPoint deck and make a YouTube video of it.


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## bobbutts (Jul 30, 2009)

Back in the day Killington used to have crackers, jalapenos, and cheddar cheese all on the free condiment line.  Free Feast!


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## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2009)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> He's probably not from Jersey due to the accent..plus Jersey-ittes are used to paying high prices for things..



I don't know about that.  You can spend a bunch of money eating in Manhattan, but it can also be one of the cheapest places you'll ever eat.....far cheaper than Boston.  

Cheap eats in Newark as well


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## RootDKJ (Jul 30, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> Cheap eats in Newark as well



I used to love coming back from parties at NJIT and getting Chinese food and other assorted take-out at places with bullet-proof windows and counters!

Very cheap though.


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## SkiBud (Aug 1, 2009)

I don't understand why Az Challenge is 17 pages long, and frankly mean and nasty, yet SR Stephen Kircher is closed after only 3 pages of fairly pleasant questions. Can you please explain.

Also, when should we expect to get answers.  

For the record I skied Killington twice this year and had a nice time.  I would love to see the Pico interchange.


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## Bubbartzky (Aug 1, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> when/why was this closed?



According to Tom Horrocks, they gave it back to the state in return for being able to open the new portion of Bittersweet this past winter.


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## mondeo (Aug 1, 2009)

SkiBud said:


> I don't understand why Az Challenge is 17 pages long, and frankly mean and nasty, yet SR Stephen Kircher is closed after only 3 pages of fairly pleasant questions. Can you please explain.
> 
> Also, when should we expect to get answers.
> 
> For the record I skied Killington twice this year and had a nice time.  I would love to see the Pico interchange.


Welcome to the board. And a disclaimer here, I've only been skiing at Killington for a few years.

Killington threads tend to get a lot of people really stirred up. Through the 90s, it was a force to be reckoned with. First to open and last to close into the East with seasons going well over 200 days, the best bump scene in the East, ect. As Geoff (who is much more of an expert than I am) puts it, Killington used to be all about superlatives, and at this point doesn't really have anything that you can point a finger at as being the best in the East.

Essentially, there are a lot of people that are very disgruntled with the direction Killington has taken over the last 5-10 years due to how good it used to be. The terrain and snowfall are still very good, but closing in 2008 with tons of snow coverage, stopping BYOB at the Bear Mountain mogul comp (therefore killing the biggest party in the east,) cutting staff to the point of it being noticable for those who've been longtime customers, etc. have caused quite a bit of resentment.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 2, 2009)

SkiBud said:


> I don't understand why Az Challenge is 17 pages long, and frankly mean and nasty, yet SR Stephen Kircher is closed after only 3 pages of fairly pleasant questions. Can you please explain.
> 
> Also, when should we expect to get answers.
> 
> For the record I skied Killington twice this year and had a nice time.  I would love to see the Pico interchange.



because people love to hate on Killington...Welcome to this site!!!!!!


----------



## icedtea (Aug 2, 2009)

Bubbartzky said:


> According to Tom Horrocks, they gave it back to the state in return for being able to open the new portion of Bittersweet this past winter.



I doubt this. Why would the state want this small patch of land back in a swap?


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 2, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Welcome to the board. And a disclaimer here, I've only been skiing at Killington for a few years.
> 
> Killington threads tend to get a lot of people really stirred up. Through the 90s, it was a force to be reckoned with. First to open and last to close into the East with seasons going well over 200 days, the best bump scene in the East, ect. As Geoff (who is much more of an expert than I am) puts it, Killington used to be all about superlatives, and at this point doesn't really have anything that you can point a finger at as being the best in the East.
> 
> Essentially, there are a lot of people that are very disgruntled with the direction Killington has taken over *the last 5-10 years* due to how good it used to be. The terrain and snowfall are still very good, but closing in 2008 with tons of snow coverage, stopping BYOB at the Bear Mountain mogul comp (therefore killing the biggest party in the east,) cutting staff to the point of it being noticable for those who've been longtime customers, etc. have caused quite a bit of resentment.



Not the last 5 to 10 years. The last 2 to 4 years, mostly the last 2. Powdr has destroyed what Killington was and Nyberg is too arrogant to change his ways and admit that he's made huge mistakes. We could not have gotten worse new owners. Nyberg won't be happy until every access road business is gone and Killington is just like any other eastern resort. He's basically an idiot when it comes to Killington, yet he has a plan and will stick to it until there is nothing left of this once great and proud part of Vermont. Someone should tell him that this ain't Park Shitty. The east is different than the west. How he doesn't see that is unbelievable.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 2, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Not the last 5 to 10 years. The last 2 to 4 years, mostly the last 2. Powdr has destroyed what Killington was and Nyberg is too arrogant to change his ways and admit that he's made huge mistakes. We could not have gotten worse new owners. Nyberg won't be happy until every access road business is gone and Killington is just like any other eastern resort. He's basically an idiot when it comes to Killington, yet he has a plan and will stick to it until there is nothing left of this once great and proud part of Vermont. Someone should tell him that this ain't Park Shitty. The east is different than the west. How he doesn't see that is unbelievable.



Please JerseyJoey tell us how you really feel..


----------



## Bubbartzky (Aug 2, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Not the last 5 to 10 years. The last 2 to 4 years, mostly the last 2. Powdr has destroyed what Killington was and Nyberg is too arrogant to change his ways and admit that he's made huge mistakes. We could not have gotten worse new owners. Nyberg won't be happy until every access road business is gone and Killington is just like any other eastern resort. He's basically an idiot when it comes to Killington, yet he has a plan and will stick to it until there is nothing left of this once great and proud part of Vermont. Someone should tell him that this ain't Park Shitty. The east is different than the west. How he doesn't see that is unbelievable.




Don't be so sure it's Nyberg, or at least Nyberg alone.  He takes direction from John Cumming in Utah.

FYI, Cumming was east this past year and met privately with some folks in town; the small committee that had been formed out of the VCRD process that ended a year ago March, to work with the resort to improve communication and improve the relationship.  Cumming privately admitted they'd made a lot of mistakes.  Nyberg has also publicly admitted they should've started to listen to people sooner.  Neither, however, will ever stand up in public and admit WHAT those mistakes were and admit they were ignorant of Killington and the east coming in, and that's where the arrogance comes into play.  They'd gain themselves a lot of respect and support by standing up in public, admitting their mistakes, and saying how they're going about correcting them.  Instead, they simply say things like they're tweaking their business plan and making adjustments, even as they obviously reverse course on many of their initial (and disastrous) decisions.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 2, 2009)

Bubbartzky said:


> Don't be so sure it's Nyberg, or at least Nyberg alone.  He takes direction from John Cumming in Utah.
> 
> FYI, Cumming was east this past year and met privately with some folks in town; the small committee that had been formed out of the VCRD process that ended a year ago March, to work with the resort to improve communication and improve the relationship.  Cumming privately admitted they'd made a lot of mistakes.  Nyberg has also publicly admitted they should've started to listen to people sooner.  Neither, however, will ever stand up in public and admit WHAT those mistakes were and admit they were ignorant of Killington and the east coming in, and that's where the arrogance comes into play.  They'd gain themselves a lot of respect and support by standing up in public, admitting their mistakes, and saying how they're going about correcting them.  Instead, they simply say things like they're tweaking their business plan and making adjustments, even as they obviously reverse course on many of their initial (and disastrous) decisions.



Agree completely, but you basically said the same thing I did, just in a nicer way.


----------



## Bubbartzky (Aug 2, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> Agree completely, but you basically said the same thing I did, just in a nicer way.



Actually, I'd like Greg to include a question to Chris about why, having been here two years already, Chris and Killington's new ownership still engenders so much dislike and distrust among so many of its historic customer base.  I'd like Greg to ask Chris, if they had it to do all over again, what would they have done differently?  I'd also like to know why they're spending money on a marketing consultant in Utah (I believe) to help them develop a brand identity for Killington when, in fact, they've had a successful brand identity for 50 years and why they haven't done anything since they arrived here to support that brand and seemingly tried to tear down the remains of the Killington brand they purchased?


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 2, 2009)

Bubbartzky said:


> Actually, I'd like Greg to include a question to Chris about why, having been here two years already, Chris and Killington's new ownership still engenders so much dislike and distrust among so many of its historic customer base.  I'd like Greg to ask Chris, if they had it to do all over again, what would they have done differently?  I'd also like to know why they're spending money on a marketing consultant in Utah (I believe) to help them develop a brand identity for Killington when, in fact, they've had a successful brand identity for 50 years and why they haven't done anything since they arrived here to support that brand and seemingly tried to tear down the remains of the Killington brand they purchased?



You want Chris to answer your questions or can I do it for him?


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## icedtea (Aug 2, 2009)

Chris: Why do you think it is appropriate to respond to a customer complaint by emailing his employer? 

j.k.... uke:uke:


----------



## SkiBud (Aug 2, 2009)

*Disconnect*



mondeo said:


> Welcome to the board. And a disclaimer here, I've only been skiing at Killington for a few years.
> 
> Killington threads tend to get a lot of people really stirred up. Through the 90s, it was a force to be reckoned with. First to open and last to close into the East with seasons going well over 200 days, the best bump scene in the East, ect. As Geoff (who is much more of an expert than I am) puts it, Killington used to be all about superlatives, and at this point doesn't really have anything that you can point a finger at as being the best in the East.
> 
> Essentially, there are a lot of people that are very disgruntled with the direction Killington has taken over the last 5-10 years due to how good it used to be. The terrain and snowfall are still very good, but closing in 2008 with tons of snow coverage, stopping BYOB at the Bear Mountain mogul comp (therefore killing the biggest party in the east,) cutting staff to the point of it being noticable for those who've been longtime customers, etc. have caused quite a bit of resentment.



I think that most people are fairly happy with management at Sunday River where I ski.  We've got a fair active dissuasion board to bring up issues.  Management is very available and does lots of meet and greats.  We don't always agree,  but we feel heard. 

After reading a lot of negative Killington posts, it begs the question "What are there goals" I am sure they have them, they clearly are different then the old management group.

So my question to Chris Nyberg is "What are your long range goals?", do you have a written Mission, Vision and Value statements you could share.

A thought to share all the negative posters, when you watch a TV commercial and don't get it, it wasn't targeted at you.  So if you don't get Killington, perhaps you should consider another ski area you get. For those of you can reasonable drive to Sunday River, I highly recommend it.


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## JerseyJoey (Aug 3, 2009)

SkiBud said:


> A thought to share all the negative posters, when you watch a TV commercial and don't get it, it wasn't targeted at you.  So if you don't get Killington, perhaps you should consider another ski area you get.



And therein lies the problem. WE DO GET KILLINGTON. It's Nyberg that doesn't get it.


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## icedtea (Aug 3, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> And therein lies the problem. WE DO GET KILLINGTON. It's Nyberg that doesn't get it.



+42

I can't see how any person with business savvy thinks it would be a positive to isolate and alienate their core, loyal customers.

JJ could you imagine doing this in your business, and then turning it around and blaming on the customer?


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## tcharron (Aug 3, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> And therein lies the problem. WE DO GET KILLINGTON. It's Nyberg that doesn't get it.



Then for christs sake stop giving them free press talking about how bad they're screwing it up.  Just send your dollars someplace else.

People, you have to really get a grasp on this.

Killington will NEVER be the old Killington.  You're comparing it to a legend in your own minds.  It's dead, just let it go, and go someplace else, and drop it.


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## icedtea (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Then for christs sake stop giving them free press talking about how bad they're screwing it up.  Just send your dollars someplace else.
> 
> People, you have to really get a grasp on this.
> 
> Killington will NEVER be the old Killington.  You're comparing it to a legend in your own minds.  It's dead, just let it go, and go someplace else, and drop it.



People are invested in real estate. Plus the geography of Killington makes it very appealling. It is already a decent car ride, and I would not want to add another hour to get up to Sugarbush every weekend. 

There is no mountain south of K that could keep me interested for a whole season.


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## tcharron (Aug 3, 2009)

icedtea said:


> +42
> 
> I can't see how any person with business savvy thinks it would be a positive to isolate and alienate their core, loyal customers.
> 
> JJ could you imagine doing this in your business, and then turning it around and blaming on the customer?



And now we're HAND HOLDING while singing kumbaya, protesting the evil, vile supermarket ski area.  Guys, it's become obviouse.

You're not their core anymore.  And if you where smart, you wouldn't be their customers anymore.

Christ, you guys are like stalker ex-girlfriends who just don't get that it's over.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Then for christs sake stop giving them free press talking about how bad they're screwing it up.  Just send your dollars someplace else.
> 
> People, you have to really get a grasp on this.
> 
> Killington will NEVER be the old Killington.  You're comparing it to a legend in your own minds.  It's dead, just let it go, and go someplace else, and drop it.



part of me agrees with you


part of me also sees that Killington is starting to listen to their core some and realizing certain policies are affecting their bottom line.  Specifically last season I see the longer year and running the Gondola everyday.


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## tcharron (Aug 3, 2009)

icedtea said:


> People are invested in real estate. Plus the geography of Killington makes it very appealling. It is already a decent car ride, and I would not want to add another hour to get up to Sugarbush every weekend.
> 
> There is no mountain south of K that could keep me interested for a whole season.



Then either:

#1) Sue them.  You'll lose, but have fun with that.
#2) Start your own ski area.  Lot of work, but hey, solves the issue.
#3) Complain in message boards.  Oh yea, this works great.  Where, to the outside observer, you're ALL sounding like HighwayStar.
#4) Just plain take it.  Pay them to ski there.  It's their mountain.  This is critical.  *IT'S NOT YOURS*


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## tcharron (Aug 3, 2009)

deadheadskier said:


> part of me agrees with you
> 
> 
> part of me also sees that Killington is starting to listen to their core some and realizing certain policies are affecting their bottom line.  Specifically last season I see the longer year and running the Gondola everyday.



Question.  How much of that change is becouse people bitched for pages that they thought the management sux0rs, Those Id10t's!  And how much of the change is because buisness is down?  Vote with your wallets!  Getting all sort of Highwaystar on a message boards doesn't help.

Most important, if I where them, it would make me..  This is important to..

*NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS ON AZ IN THE FUTURE*


----------



## bobbutts (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Then for christs sake stop giving them free press talking about how bad they're screwing it up.  Just send your dollars someplace else.
> 
> People, you have to really get a grasp on this.
> 
> Killington will NEVER be the old Killington.  You're comparing it to a legend in your own minds.  It's dead, just let it go, and go someplace else, and drop it.



These threads are annoying, but this suggestion is useless.. You to realize this is an internet forum right?  It's naive at best to ask people this.   Many people complaining are married to Killington by property ownership or at least a long history there and are simply not going to choose a new resort.  Also it doesn't seem unreasonable at all to expect some change in philosophy from the current management at K considering that (at least according the available metrics) that business levels are falling.  I think continuing to highlight the issues in a place where people that matter will see it (like this thread) may have some effect.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2009)

From what I've read, they are interested in making the same $$$ if not more with fewer skiers and riders.


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## SkiDork (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Christ, you guys are like stalker ex-girlfriends who just don't get that it's over.



1 big difference.  If you get dumped by a gf/bf there are tons of others who are the same/better.  Or if a company like GM pisses you off the Ford or Chrysler product is relatively easy to switch to.

But buying a ski area product has a lot more attached to it that isn't easy to give up, as mentioned by others here.  So the GF comparison is apples and oranges.


----------



## Bubbartzky (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Question.  How much of that change is becouse people bitched for pages that they thought the management sux0rs, Those Id10t's!  And how much of the change is because buisness is down?  Vote with your wallets!  Getting all sort of Highwaystar on a message boards doesn't help.
> 
> Most important, if I where them, it would make me..  This is important to..
> 
> *NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS ON AZ IN THE FUTURE*



Clearly the changes they made in year 2 and appear to be planning in year 3 are the result of business being down.  People voted with their wallets.  What gets said on these message boards is merely a vocalization (or written record?) of the issues that caused people to go elsewhere.


----------



## mondeo (Aug 3, 2009)

icedtea said:


> People are invested in real estate. Plus the geography of Killington makes it very appealling. It is already a decent car ride, and I would not want to add another hour to get up to Sugarbush every weekend.
> 
> There is no mountain south of K that could keep me interested for a whole season.


+1. The mountain's location/terrain/snowfall offset the management.

I get tcharron's point, but complaining on message boards does have some merit. Not a Jersey Joey style b**** fest that will just be ignored, but civily airing your gripes helps management understand why people are upset and maybe can make some changes. I think overall most rational people would say that POWDR has gradually improved since they began (though the amount of improvement is debatable,) with spinning more lifts, re-extending the season in both directions somewhat, etc. Part of that is from customer feedback.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> And now we're HAND HOLDING while singing kumbaya, protesting the evil, vile supermarket ski area.  Guys, it's become obviouse.
> 
> You're not their core anymore.  And if you where smart, you wouldn't be their customers anymore.



WTF are you talking about? They have no core customer base anymore. Who is their core? Huh? Who? It used to be me. It's not anymore. It's nobody. There is no core.

You know as little about Killington as Nyberg does. Some people can't just get up and make another ski area their new home. Some of us are tied to Killington. We tied ourselves to Killington for a number of reasons. Nyberg has taken those reasons away.

It would appear that you're the one who's singing Kumbaya on Nyberg's behalf. It's obvious that you know little about this part of Vermont, so listen and learn. When a ski area goes from nothing but superlatives to nothing less than a bitchfest towards its new owners, someone has F'ed up. Care to guess who that someone is? Listen and learn.


----------



## icedtea (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> And now we're HAND HOLDING while singing kumbaya, protesting the evil, vile supermarket ski area.  Guys, it's become obviouse.
> 
> You're not their core anymore.  And if you where smart, you wouldn't be their customers anymore.
> 
> Christ, you guys are like stalker ex-girlfriends who just don't get that it's over.



It is this type of attitude that has allowed our country to go down the drain. 

Stand up for what you believe in!


----------



## bobbutts (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Question.  How much of that change is becouse people bitched for pages that they thought the management sux0rs, Those Id10t's!  And how much of the change is because buisness is down?  Vote with your wallets!  Getting all sort of Highwaystar on a message boards doesn't help.
> 
> Most important, if I where them, it would make me..  This is important to..
> 
> *NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS ON AZ IN THE FUTURE*



In this thread you are the problem, not Highwaystar.  Note that he came on and politely asked some on topic questions.  You came along and attacked everyone with sarcastic and unreasonable posts.


----------



## RootDKJ (Aug 3, 2009)

This thread now reads like the Kzone of two years ago...lol

fwiw...I too enjoy what Killington (and the general area) has to offer, but I'm voting with my wallet this year.


----------



## SkiDork (Aug 3, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> This thread now reads like the Kzone of two years ago...lol



Thats a good one.  And there was a time (still may be the case) that K mgmt actually was trying to blame KZone for all their problems.  Believe it or not.

"if you guys would just shut up and have patience, none of these perceived problem would have ever occurred"  etc etc.


----------



## JerseyJoey (Aug 3, 2009)

RootDKJ said:


> This thread now reads like the Kzone of two years ago...lol
> 
> fwiw...I too enjoy what Killington (and the general area) has to offer, but I'm voting with my wallet this year.



You see this Chris? Do you? This is your core customer base. They are going elsewhere as they have been ever since you got to town. Nobody trusts you, including your ex-core customer base, the town, the businesses in town, the property owners and pretty much anyone else who's watched what you've done in the past 2 years.

You have the power to change things and make it all right again. You won't use that power, but you do have it. Be a man. Admit your mistakes and fix them. You can return Killington to what she once was. You'd be making money hand over foot as opposed to having to give away deals at season's end to get people to come back to K. The path is clear. Why don't you take it?


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## Highway Star (Aug 3, 2009)

Please calm down everyone, and remain civilized!


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## mondeo (Aug 3, 2009)




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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2009)

OK, let's keep this thread focused on questions for the Challenge.  It seems to have gotten offtrack.


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## tcharron (Aug 3, 2009)

thetrailboss said:


> OK, let's keep this thread focused on questions for the Challenge.  It seems to have gotten offtrack.



*nod*  Totally agreed, just closed all my reply windows.  I just wouldn't want Killington to say, next year, "We're not going to participate".  Which of course, leads to, "See!  They're not listening to their core!'.


----------



## 2knees (Aug 3, 2009)

considering the fact that its essentially 4 or 5 posters who make up about 80% of this thread, i dont think anyone at killington is gonna get too worked up about what is said in here.

besides, how many times can you regurgitate the same questions and complaints, valid though they may be.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 3, 2009)

tcharron said:


> Then for christs sake stop giving them free press talking about how bad they're screwing it up.  Just send your dollars someplace else.
> 
> People, you have to really get a grasp on this.
> 
> Killington will NEVER be the old Killington.  You're comparing it to a legend in your own minds.  It's dead, just let it go, and go someplace else, and drop it.



times 2..Jersey Joeys rants are getting annoying..:argue:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Aug 3, 2009)

JerseyJoey said:


> WTF are you talking about? They have no core customer base anymore. Who is their core? Huh? Who? It used to be me. It's not anymore. It's nobody. There is no core.
> 
> You know as little about Killington as Nyberg does. Some people can't just get up and make another ski area their new home. Some of us are tied to Killington. We tied ourselves to Killington for a number of reasons. Nyberg has taken those reasons away.
> 
> It would appear that you're the one who's singing Kumbaya on Nyberg's behalf. It's obvious that you know little about this part of Vermont, so listen and learn. When a ski area goes from nothing but superlatives to nothing less than a bitchfest towards its new owners, someone has F'ed up. Care to guess who that someone is? Listen and learn.



People like you are what gives Killington a bad name..


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## deadheadskier (Aug 3, 2009)

Alrighty

230 replies should be plenty to draw 10 questions from.  


And for those of you who might be offended at closing this thread.  Don't worry, you're point has been made, probably ten times even.  I'm sure another epic Killington thread will appear within a short while, perhaps even today.


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