# $$$$ 4 Clunkers over 8/24 8PM



## campgottagopee (Aug 20, 2009)

Thank God for that!!!!


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## wa-loaf (Aug 20, 2009)

You get paid yet?


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## campgottagopee (Aug 20, 2009)

wa-loaf said:


> You get paid yet?



Not one friggin red cent---this has been the biggest cluster I've ever been part of in my 20+ years doing this. I talk with alot of dealers and nobody is getting paid, PERIOD. Gets better. There's a dealer "hot line" you can call for help where after 62 minutes (really) of being on hold someone takes your name, dealership your with and email and tells you someone will call you back---"where just a call center" was the common reply. uke:

This will be a great program once we get paid but right now it's chewing up cash flow at a high rate of speed.


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 20, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Not one friggin red cent---this has been the biggest cluster I've ever been part of in my 20+ years doing this. I talk with alot of dealers and nobody is getting paid, PERIOD. Gets better. There's a dealer "hot line" you can call for help where after 62 minutes (really) of being on hold someone takes your name, dealership your with and email and tells you someone will call you back---"where just a call center" was the common reply. uke:
> 
> This will be a great program once we get paid but right now it's chewing up cash flow at a high rate of speed.



That simply sux and is proof positive the government should stay the hell out of the private sector , Regulate --yes  Operate  -- no fraken way


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 20, 2009)

If I assume that you guys will eventually get paid, Camp, would you say that the "Cash For Clunkers" program brought people into the showroom that otherwise would not have been there making purchases? Is it possible for you to estimate how much, if any, of an increase in sales resulted from the program?

By the way-how are your dogs doing?


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## riverc0il (Aug 20, 2009)

I was floored when I recently read that you could qualify for this program by only increasing your MPG by 3 MPG. So you could upgrade from a 15 MPG to an 18 MPG vehicle and got into the program. Seems kinda crazy to replace an old clunker with a new clunker. The extension of this program seemed to be rammed through.

Camp... why are they making dealers foot the bill and get a rebate instead of rebating tax payers on their annual income tax? I guess it was thought that people would be more reluctant to sign if the money was on the back end instead of the front end? Buyers would get a slightly lower payment too, I guess. Sucks you guys have to deal with this in the red waiting for the gov to get its act together.


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## dmc (Aug 20, 2009)

Relax... Theres a lot of $ to give out...

Lot's of dealers tripled their sales...  If they get paid soon... It's going to be awesome...

People gotta give this shti a chance...   It's all new...  And it seems to be working...


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## dmc (Aug 20, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> That simply sux and is proof positive the government should stay the hell out of the private sector , Regulate --yes  Operate  -- no fraken way



dude... chill....


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## ccskier (Aug 21, 2009)

Not to get political wait and see what happens if the healthcare passes.  Personally, I think that the manufacturers should be dealing with the payment issues, not the dealers.  I am glad that it is ebding, stop the handouts.


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## Marc (Aug 21, 2009)

Don't you mean 8/24?


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## Vortex (Aug 21, 2009)

When I bought on this program one dealer said "give us a 3,500 check and when we get a check from the govenment we will issue you a $3500 check."  We walked out and 30 min later bought a car elsewhere.  I feel for the dealers.  I  also feel that it is a choice to participate. seems like dealers chose which way to participate.  That also make a difference on if you got a sale or not.  Same deal in my buiness.  Do I sell the slow payer or not?  WE would have not purchaed a vehicle without this program. I would have just given my son the old Van as his 1st car.


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## Glenn (Aug 21, 2009)

Good riddance. Yet another bailout of 09. I'm still waiting for mine...but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Philpug (Aug 21, 2009)

Glenn said:


> Good riddance. Yet another bailout of 09. I'm still waiting for mine...but I'm not holding my breath.



$2K here to replace my heating system. Not 3500, but I will take it.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

Dr Skimeister said:


> If I assume that you guys will eventually get paid, Camp, would you say that the "Cash For Clunkers" program brought people into the showroom that otherwise would not have been there making purchases? Is it possible for you to estimate how much, if any, of an increase in sales resulted from the program?
> 
> By the way-how are your dogs doing?



From quick glances at the survey customers have been filling out I'd say 40% of the Clunker deals are from customers who would've purchased used but becasue of the deal went with new, so they were ion the market any ways. The other 60% would be made up of customers replacing second vehicles, parents trading in junkers for kids going off to school and people who bought just because we got them financed. As for increase in sales at minimum 30% is my knee jerk, maybe even more. 

The utter frustration here is with the total mismanagement of this program by NHTSA----you will see some dealers go bankrupt because of this program.

Dogs are great---only problem having now is my choc boy is ready to go hunting and we can't.


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

This was a government program...and it was new, something never done before.  Not sure why everyone was expecting that the government would all of a sudden be efficient or expedient.

In the end, I think it will be seen as a positive thing that gave the auto industry a needed (albeit small) boost during some hard times.

My only regret was that my "clunker" didn't qualify.  Oh well, at least I'll get the sales tax deduction this year...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

riverc0il said:


> I was floored when I recently read that you could qualify for this program by only increasing your MPG by 3 MPG. So you could upgrade from a 15 MPG to an 18 MPG vehicle and got into the program. Seems kinda crazy to replace an old clunker with a new clunker. The extension of this program seemed to be rammed through.
> 
> Camp... why are they making dealers foot the bill and get a rebate instead of rebating tax payers on their annual income tax? I guess it was thought that people would be more reluctant to sign if the money was on the back end instead of the front end? Buyers would get a slightly lower payment too, I guess. Sucks you guys have to deal with this in the red waiting for the gov to get its act together.



The 3 MPG thing is/was for catagory 2 trucks not for cars but still is a huge joke.

You answered your own question---payment, payment, payment

If the program had worked like we were told it would've been a problem. We were told we'd see the money in 10 days after submission of an invoice. Guess what, I have invoices that have been "under review" since 7/28 and haven't moved.


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## drjeff (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> From quick glances at the survey customers have been filling out I'd say 40% of the Clunker deals are from customers who would've purchased used but becasue of the deal went with new, so they were ion the market any ways. The other 60% would be made up of customers replacing second vehicles, parents trading in junkers for kids going off to school and people who bought just because we got them financed. As for increase in sales at minimum 30% is my knee jerk, maybe even more.
> 
> The utter frustration here is with the total mismanagement of this program by NHTSA----you will see some dealers go bankrupt because of this program.
> 
> Dogs are great---only problem having now is my choc boy is ready to go hunting and we can't.




I feel for 'ya Camp as once again the blame in this game seems to be trying to be passed out of the culprit (Washington) and onto the good, hard working small businessmen/women of America 

It's the lead story in my local paper this AM that is villifying 2 local dealerships (1 Mazda and 1 Chevy) for withholding the vehicles until the dealers receive there $$, and now my "great" attorney general here in CT  and my local congressman are attempting to get in the middle.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> Relax... Theres a lot of $ to give out...
> 
> Lot's of dealers tripled their sales...  If they get paid soon... It's going to be awesome...
> 
> People gotta give this shti a chance...   It's all new...  And it seems to be working...



Right, got $750,000.00 I can borrow??? I'll pay you back in 10 days, really.

Give it a chance???? I think we would if it worked even remotely like we were told it would. This is a joke, and not funny ha,ha.


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## drjeff (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Right, got $750,000.00 I can borrow??? I'll pay you back in 10 days, really.
> 
> Give it a chance???? I think we would if it worked even remotely like we were told it would. This is a joke, and not funny ha,ha.




EXACTLY!!!  Everyone thinks that its great to be the boss until you have to be the boss and deal with 98% of the sh$t that those that aren't the boss don't realize goes on!

I'm sure that Gov't IOU for the $$ will really help with covering payroll


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> It's the lead story in my local paper this AM that is vilifying 2 local dealerships (1 Mazda and 1 Chevy) for withholding the vehicles until the dealers receive there $$, and now my "great" attorney general here in CT  and my local congressman are attempting to get in the middle.


Just tell the congressman to float an interest-free loan to the dealerships so that the customers can get their vehicles. :razz:

I actually don't blame the dealerships for withholding vehicles until they get paid, but does that really help them financially?

I still stand by what I said before...this was a different, government run program, no one should have really expected it to work as advertised.

I wonder what the stories would have been if the rebates were processed more quickly and without restrictions...like some other much larger bailout programs...:roll:


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> Don't you mean 8/24?



Yes, OMG, I'd hang myself if it was 9/24


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

Bob R said:


> When I bought on this program one dealer said "give us a 3,500 check and when we get a check from the govenment we will issue you a $3500 check."  We walked out and 30 min later bought a car elsewhere.  I feel for the dealers.  I  also feel that it is a choice to participate. seems like dealers chose which way to participate.  That also make a difference on if you got a sale or not.  Same deal in my buiness.  Do I sell the slow payer or not?  WE would have not purchaed a vehicle without this program. I would have just given my son the old Van as his 1st car.



Yup, we did have a choice, but again nothing is going how promised---nothing


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> EXACTLY!!!  Everyone thinks that its great to be the boss until you have to be the boss and deal with 98% of the sh$t that those that aren't the boss don't realize goes on!
> 
> I'm sure that Gov't IOU for the $$ will really help with covering payroll



Bingo---every biz has a war chest but when that some beech opens up there's hell to pay. Or at least employees


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> Don't you mean 8/24?



+ 1.  Was going to say that...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

hammer said:


> Just tell the congressman to float an interest-free loan to the dealerships so that the customers can get their vehicles. :razz:
> 
> I actually don't blame the dealerships for withholding vehicles until they get paid, but does that really help them financially?
> 
> ...



Obviuosly to expect this to work exactly as planned is very close minded. For it to work nothing like it at all is a shame.


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## wa-loaf (Aug 21, 2009)

FYI, there are a ton of Gov't run programs that benefit people. This one was just put together too quickly. I'm having my house sealed and insulated. $1000 for $3500 of work. No hitches, no problems, no hold-up. The only difference, besides a little more money being available, is that it's an established program.

If you live in Mass I recommend calling MassSave to have a free energy audit done on your house. They will then do all the work in figuring out what you need and what discounts and rebates you can. This covers windows, insulation, appliances, furnaces, etc ... I'm sure there is something equivalent in other states.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 21, 2009)

Fixed the title to the thread....


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Obviuosly to expect this to work exactly as planned is very close minded. For it to work nothing like it at all is a shame.


Don't get me wrong...I do feel for the small businesses that are waiting on the promised rebates.  I just think that everyone's being a bit unrealistic on how long they expected it to take since the program was so new and different.


wa-loaf said:


> FYI, there are a *ton* of Gov't run programs that benefit people. This one was just put together too quickly. I'm having my house sealed and insulated. $1000 for $3500 of work. No hitches, no problems, no hold-up. The only difference, besides a little more money being available, is that it's an established program.


+1...with a little emphasis...


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## drjeff (Aug 21, 2009)

hammer said:


> Just tell the congressman to float an interest-free loan to the dealerships so that the customers can get their vehicles. :razz:
> 
> I actually don't blame the dealerships for withholding vehicles until they get paid, but does that really help them financially?
> 
> ...




Being a bit sarcastic here, let me preface the following with that.  

But, if the folks in Washington had been thinking a bit prior to implementing this instead of worrying about ways to show that some stimulus $$ is actually be spent, you'd think that maybe, just maybe you could have gotten a few of the thousands of employees that the IRS uses to process claims (and generally quite efficiently I might add) to handle some of the paperwork load associated with this - while the processing folks at the IRS are hadnling some claims and quarterly payments this time of year, the volume of paperwork they have now is much less than what they handle in Jan-April.


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## Marc (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> But, if the folks in Washington had been thinking



Lol, if I had a nickel every time I've said or thought that...


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Being a bit sarcastic here, let me preface the following with that.
> 
> But, if the folks in Washington had been thinking a bit prior to implementing this instead of worrying about ways to show that some stimulus $$ is actually be spent, you'd think that maybe, just maybe you could have gotten a few of the thousands of employees that the IRS uses to process claims (and generally quite efficiently I might add) to handle some of the paperwork load associated with this - while the processing folks at the IRS are handling some claims and quarterly payments this time of year, the volume of paperwork they have now is much less than what they handle in Jan-April.


Good point...problem is that it can't apply to the government because it actually makes sense...;-)

(spoken from a military veteran who was in the Chair Force and from the spouse of a person who works as a DoD contractor)


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> Lol, if I had a nickel every time I've said or thought that...



+1  that plus the fact that those "esteemed worthies" in DC  behave as if the $$$ coming in from we "the great unwashed " is unlimited and thus what the hell chuck at all kinds of nonsense . The definition of insanity is to keep doing what you've always done while expecting Differant  outcomes !

Time to vote out incumbents at all levels of government ----------nothing more insidious than the notion of "career  politicians "


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> From quick glances at the survey customers have been filling out I'd say 40% of the Clunker deals are from customers who would've purchased used but becasue of the deal went with new, so they were ion the market any ways. The other 60% would be made up of customers replacing second vehicles, parents trading in junkers for kids going off to school and people who bought just because we got them financed. As for increase in sales at minimum 30% is my knee jerk, maybe even more.
> 
> The utter frustration here is with the total mismanagement of this program by NHTSA----you will see some dealers go bankrupt because of this program.
> 
> Dogs are great---only problem having now is my choc boy is ready to go hunting and we can't.



Now I have a better understanding.

As a small business owner, I know the frustration waiting for a bill to get paid. We have fixed expenses that need to be settled.

One way I look at it though, is that you say that the program has resulted in a net 30% in new business. Even if the depreciation of that money while you're waiting for the check nets it down to 20-25%, that's still a decent shot in the arm for the bottom line. I guess it's just a matter of if a dealer has the float to carry it until the government checks arrive.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Right, got $750,000.00 I can borrow??? I'll pay you back in 10 days, really.
> 
> Give it a chance???? I think we would if it worked even remotely like we were told it would. This is a joke, and not funny ha,ha.



i hope you get your money...  

In fact lots of this $ does come from me(us)...   If you get it soon as the Govt says... then that would be great for you...

Have you called your represntitive about this?  Engaged the process?


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## ctenidae (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Right, got $750,000.00 I can borrow??? I'll pay you back in 10 days, really.
> 
> Give it a chance???? I think we would if it worked even remotely like we were told it would. This is a joke, and not funny ha,ha.



I wonder if any of the receivables factoring guys have figured out a way to buy the chits from dealers. You'd probably take a 15% haircut, but maybe less, since it's a timing question more than a creditworthiness question. Theoretically, anyway- one has to assume that the gov't is good for the money, it's just a matter of when.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

ctenidae said:


> I wonder if any of the receivables factoring guys have figured out a way to buy the chits from dealers. You'd probably take a 15% haircut, but maybe less, since it's a timing question more than a creditworthiness question. Theoretically, anyway- one has to assume that the gov't is good for the money, it's just a matter of when.



I think our $ will make it to him...  I just think they are trying to do it right...  I'd imagine theres a ton of people trying to "get over" on this and make off with our $...


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> +1  that plus the fact that those "esteemed worthies" in DC  behave as if the $$$ coming in from we "the great unwashed " is unlimited and thus what the hell chuck at all kinds of nonsense . The definition of insanity is to keep doing what you've always done while expecting Differant  outcomes !
> 
> Time to vote out incumbents at all levels of government ----------nothing more insidious than the notion of "career  politicians "



Until that revolution occurs - what do you do?   Vapidly complain or engage the process?


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## Vortex (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Yup, we did have a choice, but again nothing is going how promised---nothing





I really hope you get your money before it hurts too much.  I just like the program and I think it helps consumers and business owners.  I agree that implementation is harder on the business owners.  

You had a post on whom is buying the cars.  Very interesting post.  I will still by my son a car some time in the next year.  It will be a used vehicle.  I would have bought a new vehicle for our family at the same time.

 This  program moved up my purchace buy a year most likely.  As a consumer I was able to buy a better car becasue I got a better trade in value as well.


    I will also probably buy a newer car for my son  now that many older cars are off the road.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Yup, we did have a choice, but again nothing is going how promised---nothing



People came in and bought cars...    That worked...

Many dealers didn't do this because they don't trust the govt to spend my $


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> Until that revolution occurs - what do you do?   Vapidly complain or engage the process?




I have ACTIVELY engaged the process for years my man having made trips to DC and Albany yearly to do so. Just this year during the Budget session trips were made to Albany and regional offices of our fed reps .

Moreover i work the phones and  talk with these guys frequently . Did so for over 30 years in my professional life . AS a result ,I am MORE than famil;iar with how government functions "on the inside " and THAT my friend is why i am of the opinion  that i expressed here .   

Whatever you think IT IS -------------IT  isn'T   =The unfortunate reality of what is going on when the doors are closed and the deals are done . Mostly what the public sees is "Bad theatre " at best
.


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## Marc (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> Until that revolution occurs - what do you do?   Vapidly complain or engage the process?



I vapidly complain because it makes me feel better... but then I go vote as well.  It's about the only thing I can do to engage the process because I dislike confrontation and public speaking.  Plus I'm hard up for time.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

You don't have to get all uppity on me...    I was only asking...  Cause you seemed to be only complainin',,,   

Good for you!!!

So what does your representation have to say about this issue?  And how will they address making sure my $ goes to the car dealers?


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> I vapidly complain because it makes me feel better... but then I go vote as well.  It's about the only thing I can do to engage the process because I dislike confrontation and public speaking.  Plus I'm hard up for time.



You don't seem to be the guy thats getting your hackles up...  I just wanted to use the word hackles...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

Dr Skimeister said:


> Now I have a better understanding.
> 
> As a small business owner, I know the frustration waiting for a bill to get paid. We have fixed expenses that need to be settled.
> 
> One way I look at it though, is that you say that the program has resulted in a net 30% in new business. Even if the depreciation of that money while you're waiting for the check nets it down to 20-25%, that's still a decent shot in the arm for the bottom line. I guess it's just a matter of if a dealer has the *float *to carry it until the government checks arrive.



Good point, at the end of the day, or months :-o, this will be good for us and I'd do it again if it ever comes around.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> i hope you get your money...
> 
> In fact lots of this $ does come from me(us)...   If you get it soon as the Govt says... then that would be great for you...
> 
> Have you called your represntitive about this?  Engaged the process?



Yes, the big boss met w/ our Congressman yesterday---nutshell version, "wow that stinks"


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Good point, at the end of the day, or months :-o, this will be good for us and I'd do it again if it ever comes around.



:flag: As an American that supports the "bailout" ..    I thank you...    :flag:

I worry about where my $ is going...  And to go to people like you makes me happy..  I've been hit hard by this as well...  But my industry doesn't get "bailed out"..  So we've seen the layoffs, paycuts, non paid vaca, etc...

One of my main concerns when this whole thing broke was the auto industry...    And of course the financial industry...

Thanks again..  You'll get you $...  And its going to get done correctly...


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Yes, the big boss met w/ our Congressman yesterday---nutshell version, "wow that stinks"



Who's your congressman up there?


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> i hope you get *your *money...
> 
> In fact lots of this $ does come from me(us)...   If you get it soon as the Govt says... then that would be great for you...
> 
> Have you called your represntitive about this?  Engaged the process?



It's really the customers money that we are floating for them


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Sent an email to Scott Murphy (the replacement for Gillibrand) in my district...
Stating my concern that dealers get paid quickly..

I think he's still beat up from the town hall meeting in yesterday...


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> It's really the customers money that we are floating for them



I thought my $ was going it to the actual cash given back to the dealer?

Explain?


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> I think our $ will make it to him...  I just think they are trying to do it right... * I'd imagine theres a ton of people trying to "get over" on this and make off with our $...[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I don't see how that's possible--- the right thing would've been to consult some people in the auto biz before launching this thing.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> People came in and bought cars...    That worked...
> 
> Many dealers didn't do this because they don't trust the govt to spend* my *$



Our money, right??


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> dmc said:
> 
> 
> > I think our $ will make it to him...  I just think they are trying to do it right... * I'd imagine theres a ton of people trying to "get over" on this and make off with our $...*
> ...



Well....  If they didn't and it got out that people took advantage of the situation... You guys would be screaming about something else that the govt screwed up...  

What could they've done better?
What could the Auto dealers have done better?


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Our money, right??



Mine - ours... i was trying to make a subtle point...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> Who's your congressman up there?



Michael Arcuri


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> I thought my $ was going it to the actual cash given back to the dealer?
> 
> Explain?



This money is in a form of a rebate to the customer, not the dealer, but the dealer "floats"or loans the money to the customer then has to wait to get paid. Just like rebates from the manufactures which is paid in a more timel;y fashion.


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## Glenn (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> What could they've done better?



I could write a Goddamned novel that would make War and Peace look like something you could read in 2.5 minutes on the can.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> This money is in a form of a rebate to the customer, not the dealer, but the dealer "floats"or loans the money to the customer then has to wait to get paid. Just like rebates from the manufactures which is paid in a more timel;y fashion.



But "our" $ is paid to the dealer to cover the floated stuff...?


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> Well....  If they didn't and it got out that people took advantage of the situation... You guys would be screaming about something else that the govt screwed up...
> 
> What could they've done better?
> What could the Auto dealers have done better?



Done better??? Don't really have time to answer this properly (shouldn't even be online now:razz but in a one word answer, communication. 

Dealers coul've seen issues that NHTSA never could forsee---ex: to sumbitt a claim you have to have clear title (lien release)---if there's a payoff involved it can take up to 3 weeks to get lien release and guess what---program ends monday


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> But "our" $ is paid to the dealer to cover the floated stuff...?



Yes, that's correct. My point to that is we "dealers" aren't making any more $$$$ on these transactions than we would any other day. Yes, the volume, for now, is great so bottom lines are good, but what happens in the months to come when inventory levels are low and we've already forced the market. This is far from over.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Yes, that's correct. My point to that is we "dealers" aren't making any more $$$$ on these transactions than we would any other day. Yes, the volume, for now, is great so bottom lines are good, but what happens in the months to come when inventory levels are low and we've already forced the market. This is far from over.



So I guess - it would've been better *not* to do this at all - since the problem will just come back again...    Sounds kind of shortsighted to try and use taxpayers $ and give a boost to a dying industry...  

I was hoping for some momentum from this..  Not delay the inevitable...  But you sound like this will not happen..   must be tough to see no future in your industry.  

bummer...  I now feel bad supporting this initiative to help you guys out..  And me too... 
I thought it was going well...  Best wishes to you...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> So I guess - it would've been better *not* to do this at all - since the problem will just come back again...    Sounds kind of shortsighted to try and use taxpayers $ and give a boost to a dying industry...
> 
> I was hoping for some momentum from this..  Not delay the inevitable...  But you sound like this will not happen..   must be tough to see no future in your industry.
> 
> ...



lol---Just keepin it real


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> lol---Just keepin it real



your my only window into this issue... I'm being serious...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> your my only window into this issue... I'm being serious...



Gotcha, please don't missunderstand. I'll say it again---this was great for biz and if it ever comes around again we will do it. The problem, albeit a good one, nobody saw this type of responce from this program, nobody, so the inventory to replace what was forced isn't readily available. Again, good problem to have and we'll figure something out, always do. 

thanks for your concern


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> So I guess - it would've been better *not* to do this at all - since the problem will just come back again... Sounds kind of shortsighted to try and use taxpayers $ and give a boost to a dying industry...


Where have I heard that before...oh yeah, it's what I said when the program started.

Funny, I can't find anything from the GAO on the rebate program. Probably because it was shoved through too quickly to actually study its impacts.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Where have I heard that before...oh yeah, it's what I said when the program started.
> 
> Funny, I can't find anything from the GAO on the rebate program. Probably because it was shoved through too quickly to actually study its impacts.



Wow...  your so smart... 

ENOUGH STUDYING!!!  We need action...  And thats what this was...  And to a large degree successful...  And it may stimulate more car sales in the future...  And keep someone in their house for another few months until this crap turns around..

How about we need to do stuff NOW so we don't slip into a depression...  And trust that it can be done and eventually done right...  
My vote went to the future... not hanging around in the past...


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

mondeo said:


> Where have I heard that before...oh yeah, it's what I said when the program started.
> 
> Funny, I can't find anything from the GAO on the rebate program. Probably because it was shoved through too quickly to actually study its impacts.


The same could be said for the TARP program...and a lot more $$$ was set aside for that...

BTW, if you really wanted to have a complete study on this or any other program, you would not have seen it implemented for years.  Ever worked on a government program?  Even basic engineering decisions can take months...

These are tough times, and I have to give the federal gov't credit for trying to do things to boost the economy, even if they aren't perfect.


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2009)

hammer said:


> The same could be said for the TARP program...and a lot more $$$ was set aside for that...
> 
> BTW, if you really wanted to have a complete study on this or any other program, you would not have seen it implemented for years. Ever worked on a government program? Even basic engineering decisions can take months...
> 
> These are tough times, and I have to give the federal gov't credit for trying to do things to boost the economy, even if they aren't perfect.


And the same goes for TARP. The GAO is actually pretty decent at this stuff and could spin out numbers in a month or two. They did a full review of the Air Force tanker aquisition decision in 3 months. There's no reason not to set up a fast track GAO process that can get stuff done in a month limit for stuff deemed critical. That'll give everyone involved some time to calm down after a panic starts and to get systems in place to handle whatever Congress is trying to shove through. It's not like the government can impact the economy within a month anyways; this is a good example of that. Give the GAO a month to study the program, while they're doing up set up the processes to handle the paperwork from dealers. Dealers actually end up getting their money at the same time, factories spool back up a little to bump up inventory, and we actually have an idea of what the program will actually do, and, say, if it needs $3bn instead of $1bn.


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## drjeff (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Gotcha, please don't missunderstand. I'll say it again---this was great for biz and if it ever comes around again we will do it. The problem, albeit a good one, nobody saw this type of responce from this program, nobody, so the inventory to replace what was forced isn't readily available. Again, good problem to have and we'll figure something out, always do.
> 
> thanks for your concern



Camp, Is there any "in the industry" concern that this will become another event similiar to what 9/11 did, where it had dealers suddenly dropping their financing rates to 0.0% to get customers into the dealership and then the customer base basically not being interested in buying unless they kept getting 0.0% for a number of years after???

I could see some of the public basically saying "well the economy still stinks, so congress will probably do another cash for clunkers in the future, so I'll wait rather than buy now" type thing happening.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> I could see some of the public basically saying "well the economy still stinks, so congress will probably do another cash for clunkers in the future, so I'll wait rather than buy now" type thing happening.



i think Americans are psyched to buy new cars...  Lots of people just stopped..  And the CFC program nudged them...  And these are people with good credit...etc...

i love a new car...  I always buy new...  i take a lot of heat from friends... Telling me I'm wasting $$... blah blah blah...  whatever..


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Camp, Is there any "in the industry" concern that this will become another event similiar to what 9/11 did, where it had dealers suddenly dropping their financing rates to 0.0% to get customers into the dealership and then the customer base basically not being interested in buying unless they kept getting 0.0% for a number of years after???
> 
> I could see some of the public basically saying "well the economy still stinks, so congress will probably do another cash for clunkers in the future, so I'll wait rather than buy now" type thing happening.



To me, this begs the question of what is/was the original intent of the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Was it instituted to try to stimulate consumer confidence? Was it instituted to encourage people to trade-up to vehicles that are more efficient in fuel use so as to lessen the country's dependence on oil? Was it instituted to encourage more new car sales which then stimulates both new car production in an attempt to restock inventory and the banking industry that's making the loans for these purchases? 

I would hope that the intent is to answer all of these questions with "yes". Win/win/win for consumers, the auto industry (top to bottom, that is if we exclude the parts manufacturers that will take a hit as people part with older cars) and the banking industry. 

Seems pretty well thought out for a program that was implemented in such a relatively short amount of time.


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> i love a new car...  I always buy new...  i take a lot of heat from friends... Telling me I'm wasting $$... blah blah blah...  whatever..


I also like to buy new...I looked at CPO cars the last time around and it wasn't quite the same so I stuck with a new car.  I feel that it's worth it as long as you keep your car for long enough...buying new and trading within a few years is not the best way to go financially.


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## drjeff (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> i love a new car...  I always buy new...  i take a lot of heat from friends... Telling me I'm wasting $$... blah blah blah...  whatever..



With you 100% on all aspects of your statement DMC!


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## tjf67 (Aug 21, 2009)

Dr Skimeister said:


> To me, this begs the question of what is/was the original intent of the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Was it instituted to try to stimulate consumer confidence? Was it instituted to encourage people to trade-up to vehicles that are more efficient in fuel use so as to lessen the country's dependence on oil? Was it instituted to encourage more new car sales which then stimulates both new car production in an attempt to restock inventory and the banking industry that's making the loans for these purchases?
> 
> I would hope that the intent is to answer all of these questions with "yes". Win/win/win for consumers, the auto industry (top to bottom, that is if we exclude the parts manufacturers that will take a hit as people part with older cars) and the banking industry.
> 
> Seems pretty well thought out for a program that was implemented in such a relatively short amount of time.



Seems they touched all of those issues.  The one thing I would have liked to seen is that a certain percentage of the car needed to be produced here in the states.  Or at least exclude any vehicles that have nothing produced over here.


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## drjeff (Aug 21, 2009)

Dr Skimeister said:


> To me, this begs the question of what is/was the original intent of the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Was it instituted to try to stimulate consumer confidence? Was it instituted to encourage people to trade-up to vehicles that are more efficient in fuel use so as to lessen the country's dependence on oil? Was it instituted to encourage more new car sales which then stimulates both new car production in an attempt to restock inventory and the banking industry that's making the loans for these purchases?
> 
> I would hope that the intent is to answer all of these questions with "yes". Win/win/win for consumers, the auto industry (top to bottom, that is if we exclude the parts manufacturers that will take a hit as people part with older cars) and the banking industry.
> 
> Seems pretty well thought out for a program that was implemented in such a relatively short amount of time.



To me atleast Doc, it seems like the reasoning behind it was 2 out of 3, where I'm guessing the consumer confidence issue was the left out 1.  But fuel efficiency and ramping up the sales + manufacturing side of the auto industry I'd certainly hope were goals of this program from the folks in Washington that put it together.

My guess is though that once in the new car, the consumer confidence may very well be something that shows up down the road(no pun intended  )


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

hammer said:


> I also like to buy new...I looked at CPO cars the last time around and it wasn't quite the same so I stuck with a new car.  I feel that it's worth it as long as you keep your car for long enough...buying new and trading within a few years is not the best way to go financially.



My cars usually have over 150k on them when I get rid of them...     For some reason I'm really lucky with repairs...  My Subi's seem to blow the head between 150k an 200k...  thats when i get rid of them...

Last one was around 150k when I totaled it by hitting a moose...

My newest car was paid for in cash... which was awesome...  Never made such a big  cash expenditure in my life...


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## Marc (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> You don't seem to be the guy thats getting your hackles up...  I just wanted to use the word hackles...



Takes a lot for me to get my hackles up.  I'm just not a very hackley person in general I guess.








/hackle


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Marc said:


> Takes a lot for me to get my hackles up.  I'm just not a very hackley person in general I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hackle... hackle...


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 21, 2009)

I don't have any hackles either just a healthy skepticism about another  "READY FIRE AIM  " approach to governmental  CONTROL 

.Better planning and communication and elimination of game playing ( allowing one to buy a truck getting 3 more mpg  than the clunker )might have made for a smoother initiation .

I hope the dealers all make out and that cash flow problems abate . I am yet to be convinced that deemand will continue and the precedent that was  set is a very slippery slope for future bailouts . Hope i'm wrong here but time will tell


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## Glenn (Aug 21, 2009)

Dr Skimeister said:


> To me, this begs the question of what is/was the original intent of the "Cash For Clunkers" program. Was it instituted to try to stimulate consumer confidence? Was it instituted to encourage people to trade-up to vehicles that are more efficient in fuel use so as to lessen the country's dependence on oil? Was it instituted to encourage more new car sales which then stimulates both new car production in an attempt to restock inventory and the banking industry that's making the loans for these purchases?
> 
> I would hope that the intent is to answer all of these questions with "yes". Win/win/win for consumers, the auto industry (top to bottom, that is if we exclude the parts manufacturers that will take a hit as people part with older cars) and the banking industry.
> 
> Seems pretty well thought out for a program that was implemented in such a relatively short amount of time.



I'll disgree with you on this. Allbeit, the most politely way that I can. :beer:

It stimilulated things...only temporarily. I see dealers being in the same situation they have been unless the economy as a whole picks up. 

+3 mpg isn'g going to do a heck of a log of "greening". This program required the vehicles to be running, not "push, pull or tow". So we're taking functional vehicles and destroying them. When it comes to environment, more harm than good. 

Again, :beer:   just my take. Classic version of someone seeing the glass as half full and one seeing it half empty.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> I don't have any hackles either just a healthy skepticism about another  "READY FIRE AIM  " approach to governmental  CONTROL
> 
> .Better planning and communication and elimination of game playing ( allowing one to buy a truck getting 3 more mpg  than the clunker )might have made for a smoother initiation .
> 
> I hope the dealers all make out and that cash flow problems abate . I am yet to be convinced that deemand will continue and the precedent that was  set is a very slippery slope for future bailouts . Hope i'm wrong here but time will tell



funny... You have hackles my friend...  that whole paragraph was hackley....

All you can do is sit back and wait for the Govt to do the right thing and catch up with this stuff...  And maybe we've stimulated the industry enough to keep it alive until things get better...


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> funny... You have hackles my friend...  that whole paragraph was hackley....
> 
> All you can do is sit back and wait for the Govt to do the right thing and catch up with this stuff...  And maybe we've stimulated the industry enough to keep it alive until things get better...



Nah  no hackles and certainly not a shrinking violet  --just an independent thinker who doesn't drink the kool aid --LMAO 

 you seem to be a mite PRICKLY  today  which is fine opinions are like well i wont go there . 


I do way more than sit back  I tell them where and when i don't agree .

Never was a bench player i always GOT IN THE GAME it's way more fun


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> Nah  no hackles and certainly not a shrinking violet  --just an independent thinker who doesn't drink the kool aid --LMAO
> you seem to be a mite PRICKLY  today  which is fine opinions are like well i wont go there .
> I do way more than sit back  I tell them where and when i don't agree .
> Never was a bench player i always GOT IN THE GAME it's way more fun



First of all.... The Koolaid thing makes me mad...

I'm not prickly - of more so then usual.   I'm just trying to resolve the opinions coming from people I know that sell cars..   2 local guys said... this whole thing saved them...  Another guy i know from further upstate says it's been great - he's kinda new... But said he's never seen so many people in the showroom....

So everyhing i hear is good..  

And then there's AZ...  And Fox news...


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

drjeff said:


> Camp, Is there any "in the industry" concern that this will become another event similiar to what 9/11 did, where it had dealers suddenly dropping their financing rates to 0.0% to get customers into the dealership and then the customer base basically not being interested in buying unless they kept getting 0.0% for a number of years after???
> 
> I could see some of the public basically saying "well the economy still stinks, so congress will probably do another cash for clunkers in the future, so I'll wait rather than buy now" type thing happening.



That's a concern of mine for sure---look what happened to GM/Chrysler after they whored themsleves out. In all fairness this was a very short "blast" so I don't think the effect will be more than a month or 2.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

Glenn said:


> I'll disgree with you on this. Allbeit, the most politely way that I can. :beer:
> 
> It stimilulated things...only temporarily. I see dealers being in the same situation they have been unless the economy as a whole picks up.
> 
> ...



From what I saw 3mpg increase wasn't the norm---on avrg I'd say 12mpg would be more accurate. Obviuosly it depends on what product you sell but here I am OUT of Versa, Sentra, Impreza, Legacy, Outback, Foresters.....all the stuff that gets good MPG


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## campgottagopee (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> I'm not prickly - of more so then usual.   I'm just trying to resolve the opinions coming from people I know that sell cars..   2 local guys said... this whole thing saved them...  Another guy i know from further upstate says it's been great - he's kinda new... But said he's never seen so many people in the showroom....
> 
> So everyhing i hear is good..
> 
> And then there's AZ...  And Fox news...



What they are telling you is correct----I fear it was nothing other than a band-aid and further down the road is my concern as should be your friends. Yes the "fat" check over this 30 day period will be awesome---how skinny will they be in the next 60 days kinda thing. IMO, at best, I hope it averages out.


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## Dr Skimeister (Aug 21, 2009)

Glenn said:


> I'll disgree with you on this. Allbeit, the most politely way that I can. :beer:
> 
> It stimilulated things...only temporarily. I see dealers being in the same situation they have been unless the economy as a whole picks up.
> 
> ...



Perhaps you're right about the stimulation to the automobile and banking industries being but a temporary tingle, and it may not do anything more than delay the inevitable death of these two bungling businesses. But 3-6 months ago, they were essentially flat-lining and it looked like all that was needed was for the proverbial fat lady to clear her throat and their demise would have severely crushed any hope of economic recovery in the foreseeable future. At least now it looks like we've taken a step or two back from that abyss.

As far as the "greening" concept, I wonder how many of the "clunkers" will find new life in the foreign markets (Mexico, other Latin America countries) as is the case with so many of the American market trade-ins.

There is the inevitable political aspect of a discussion like this that we're doing a decent job of skirting around. Some of us will be more likely to support a program because someone with similar political leanings instituted it while others will hope for it's failure for no reason other than because the people currently having more say in policy making have made the policy.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Dr Skimeister said:


> As far as the "greening" concept, I wonder how many of the "clunkers" will find new life in the foreign markets (Mexico, other Latin America countries) as is the case with so many of the American market trade-ins.
> .



Pretty sure they have to be crushed as part of the deal.... Then recycled...  Which is good.. If done right...


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## Vortex (Aug 21, 2009)

We are only looking at one side of all of this.  Well I guess I may be the only one of the group that bought under this program, but We have  more fuel efficient cars on the road. 

 The less fuel being used will help in general here for years.

  Plus these news cars in general have better emission systems than older ones  as well.  There is some benefit beyond 60 days here.  Consumer benefit matters here as well.


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> What they are telling you is correct----I fear it was nothing other than a band-aid and further down the road is my concern as should be your friends. Yes the "fat" check over this 30 day period will be awesome---how skinny will they be in the next 60 days kinda thing. IMO, at best, I hope it averages out.



I hope it all works out... You are important to the US...  and I thank you..
HAng in there!


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## hammer (Aug 21, 2009)

dmc said:


> Pretty sure they have to be crushed as part of the deal.... Then recycled...  Which is good.. If done right...


Before they are crushed the engines have to be disabled...I don't think that the clunker cars will see much use, even in the junk parts market.


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## Warp Daddy (Aug 21, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> What they are telling you is correct----I fear it was nothing other than a band-aid and further down the road is my concern as should be your friends. Yes the "fat" check over this 30 day period will be awesome---how skinny will they be in the next 60 days kinda thing. IMO, at best, I hope it averages out.



Camp i'm sure hoping like most of your colleagues that it does work out and that the peaks and valleys of profitability become more like a steady flow,than a 30 day blip. It comes as no surprise that your dealership was selling really impressive mileage vehicles ----------------------good on ya 



DMC:   I still like ya nomatter what bro  ---- just  2 dudes discussin stuff .  We all got our opinions  so no offense taken and certainly none intended yer way ----------------------------K  ?????


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## dmc (Aug 21, 2009)

Warp Daddy said:


> DMC:   I still like ya nomatter what bro  ---- just  2 dudes discussin stuff .  We all got our opinions  so no offense taken and certainly none intended yer way ----------------------------K  ?????



never a problem...  If you'd have seen the abuse i took from the KZone Right Wing snakepit - this is nuthin!   

They abused me while my brother was actually serving in Iraq..  i asked them to show respect and back off... they did not..

That was the last time i posted there...   i like it here... the calm discussion makes me think about things not just defending myself and core beliefs...
:flag:


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## Glenn (Aug 21, 2009)

The WSJ had a great article about the "stuff" they dump in the engine. It destroys the engine in minutes. Again, I just can't see the viability of destroying something that's working perfectly fine. This also took a good amount of decent used cars off the market for other folks who can't afford new/newer cars. 

I'm still not sold on the MPG thing doing a lick of good. Another good article I read recently. Hybrid owners pay more for car insurance. Why? They drive more. It's often been said that if you put someone in a more fuel efficient car, they'll just drive more; mitigating the benefit of driving a more fuel efficient vehicles. Guess there's some truth to that after all.


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## mondeo (Aug 21, 2009)

Glenn said:


> The WSJ had a great article about the "stuff" they dump in the engine. It destroys the engine in minutes. Again, I just can't see the viability of destroying something that's working perfectly fine. This also took a good amount of decent used cars off the market for other folks who can't afford new/newer cars.
> 
> I'm still not sold on the MPG thing doing a lick of good. Another good article I read recently. Hybrid owners pay more for car insurance. Why? They drive more. It's often been said that if you put someone in a more fuel efficient car, they'll just drive more; mitigating the benefit of driving a more fuel efficient vehicles. Guess there's some truth to that after all.


Diminishing returns on the value of driving would indicate if you get 10% lower per mile costs, you'd drive somewhere between 0% to 10% more.

Fundamentally, you'll get some benefit, but 10% better mileage may only translate into 5% energy consumption reduction. It's only a 10% reduction if someone puts absolutely no consideration on the cost of gas into whether or not they drive somewhere, and if it's no benefit then the person was just to stupid to realize they should have been driving more with the less efficient car.


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## campgottagopee (Aug 24, 2009)

Adding to the mass confusion ans stress the webiste we go to to submitt our invoices on just crashed. :-o Glad I only have 2 more to submitt today.


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## dmc (Aug 24, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Adding to the mass confusion ans stress the webiste we go to to submitt our invoices on just crashed. :-o Glad I only have 2 more to submitt today.



Hang in there!!!!  And thanks!


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## campgottagopee (Aug 24, 2009)

dmc said:


> Hang in there!!!!  And thanks!



Thanks DMC, no worries---spent yesterday in here subbitting claims like it was my job. We have reporters here today interviewing "Clunker" customers as they're picking up their new cars. Kinda cool----people are VERY happy they were able to take advantage of this program. :flag:


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## campgottagopee (Sep 3, 2009)

K, now this was a great program, just got paid on our first claim which was submitted 7/27


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## drjeff (Sep 3, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> K, now this was a great program, just got paid on our first claim which was submitted 7/27



What do you figure Camp,  Christmastime or so by the time the last check rolls into the dealership???


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## campgottagopee (Sep 3, 2009)

drjeff said:


> What do you figure Camp,  Christmastime or so by the time the last check rolls into the dealership???



Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Maybe they'll come out with "Cash for Decay" ????


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## drjeff (Sep 3, 2009)

campgottagopee said:


> Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
> 
> Maybe they'll come out with "Cash for Decay" ????



God I hope not!!!  I could only imagine how they'd screw that one up!   Just the likely added overhead costs I'd probably need to incur interms of extra staff to deal with all the paperwork/x-rays/etc would likely far exceed what the gov't would payout seeing as how many gov't based adult dental plans currently in existence reimburse atmost 50 cents on the dollar of a "usual" fee,  and my overhead is comfortably ABOVE 50%


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