# Double Fall Lines: Love 'em or hate 'em?



## Greg (Dec 4, 2006)

Love 'em! Let's also use this thread to post your best DFL pics!

Liftline, Castlerock, Sugarbush:


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## roark (Dec 4, 2006)

I suspect this poll will be more lopsided than the trees vs. groomers thread.


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## snoseek (Dec 4, 2006)

nice pic!! they are real fun. definately adds lots of challenge. quite the workout for on leg, I guess the other gets a rest.


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## pepperdawg (Dec 4, 2006)

Nice - that CR pic has made it so I cant stand up from my desk...


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## Greg (Dec 4, 2006)

Couple more:

*Flying Cloud, Berkshire East:*





Tough to tell in this pic, but *Goniff Glade at Magic* had a nasty DFL, along with trees:





*Organgrinder, Sugarbush:*


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## thetrailboss (Dec 4, 2006)

They make skiing more challenging.  Other good double fall lines can be found at Middlebury College Snowbowl and Burke Mountain.


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## marcski (Dec 4, 2006)

DFL's make skiing interesting.  Flat and smooth = boring.


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## dmc (Dec 4, 2006)

Westway(44) at Hunter..  Double falline to the left..





HiRes:
http://www.powderhound.org/2005/hi-res/Hunter_12-17-05_view_down_44.jpg


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 4, 2006)

> Other good double fall lines can be found at Middlebury College Snowbowl and Burke Mountain.



Double Fall Line trails at Burke = Powder Horn, Wilderness, Mountain Marsh, McHargs Cutoff, parts of Upper Dipper, East Bowl (of course EB has a little bit of everything, even some uphill  )


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## Big Game (Dec 4, 2006)

Nice pics. I wish I had some to share. DFL's are great ways to ease into more difficult terrain.


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## andyzee (Dec 4, 2006)

Greg said:


> Couple more:
> 
> *Organgrinder, Sugarbush:*


 
I love Organgrinder, never noticed a dfl on it though, damn, getting old and senile


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## Greg (Dec 4, 2006)

andyzee said:


> I love Organgrinder, never noticed a dfl on it though, damn, getting old and senile



OG is a weird run for me. It looks very steep from the top, but feels pretty mellow once you're on it.


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## Marc (Dec 4, 2006)

DFL... where I'm from... means "dead fecking last."






At any rate, I will only ski on a trail with a triple fall line, personally.


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## Hawkshot99 (Dec 4, 2006)

Ok, ill be the "gaper".  Whats a double fall line?  And while your at it, whats a gaper?


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## Greg (Dec 4, 2006)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Ok, ill be the "gaper".  Whats a double fall line?  And while your at it, whats a gaper?



Brave man.  More gaper info here:

http://forums.alpinezone.com/8473-you-might-gaper-if.html

As far as double fall lines, well that first pic of Liftline should pretty much answer it. Basically, it's sort of a trail that "leans" one way or the other as well as descends in the direction of the trail. Often times you drift towards the "low" side. It makes it tough to keep a consistent line, and you usually end up taking one turn shorter to compensate.


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## AdironRider (Dec 4, 2006)

Double fall line refers to when the natural slope of the trail not only drops down towards the bottom of the run, but also to either the left or right creating a slope that not only falls down in vertical in front of you, but also to either your left or right to some degree. These change drastically they way a slope feels or skis. 

That being said I dont think theyre all that exciting. Sure they provide a nice challenge, but more often than not they become a pain in the ass more than an enjoyable experience to me. Its not that I cant handle em, (Ive learned more on Cloudspin at Whiteface - if you want to talk about double fall lines this is a run to check out - than probably any other trail in the east) but for pure riding flow and please Id rather just have it steep and gnarly straight down the hill.


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## from_the_NEK (Dec 4, 2006)

I think they use snow making on OG to take away some of the double fall line aspect. It definitley is not very prominent. I reality the majority of trails have some amount of double fall line to them. Some are just much more noticable (most of traffic funneled to one side) than others.


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## Greg (Dec 4, 2006)

AdironRider said:


> (Ive learned more on Cloudspin at Whiteface - if you want to talk about double fall lines this is a run to check out - than probably any other trail in the east)



What's it like to have skied every trail in the East?


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## AdironRider (Dec 4, 2006)

Pretty awesome let me tell you!  

So I guess its a bit unfair to say that Cloud is the best double fall line in the east, but its definately up there. Ive sampled all the others in the thread minus trails at the Bush, and it definately holds its own weight. Notably, Cloudspin often gets a nice fresh layer of windblown pow everyday from Skyward as well as the bowl that contains the Slides. But Ill shut up before I spill to many secrets.


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## Greg (Dec 4, 2006)

AdironRider said:


> Pretty awesome let me tell you!
> 
> So I guess its a bit unfair to say that Cloud is the best double fall line in the east, but its definately up there. Ive sampled all the others in the thread minus trails at the Bush, and it definately holds its own weight. Notably, Cloudspin often gets a nice fresh layer of windblown pow everyday from Skyward as well as the bowl that contains the Slides. But Ill shut up before I spill to many secrets.



 Just bustin'...


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## andyzee (Dec 4, 2006)

One double fall line that is a bit decieving is Down Draft running into Double Dipper at Killington. There have been time I didn't realize that it's a DFL and there were big bumps or ice and it just kind of throws you.


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## Chris I (Dec 4, 2006)

AdironRider said:


> Pretty awesome let me tell you!
> 
> So I guess its a bit unfair to say that Cloud is the best double fall line in the east, but its definately up there. Ive sampled all the others in the thread minus trails at the Bush, and it definately holds its own weight. Notably, Cloudspin often gets a nice fresh layer of windblown pow everyday from Skyward as well as the bowl that contains the Slides. But Ill shut up before I spill to many secrets.




Cloud as well as Tannery at Gore are horrible for snowboarders.  After a day of sessioning Gore getting back to Bear mtn is torture on the calves if you take these trails


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## AdironRider (Dec 4, 2006)

Whats so bad about Cloudspin for snowboarders? Theres no annoying traverses like Gore has, no real runout, and a sustained pitch. Other than the fact that it bumps up whats so bad. I ride and have yet to encounter any difficulty on Cloud.


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## marcski (Dec 4, 2006)

Call me a gaper if you will...but I happen to enjoy Jaws on the NF of Mt. Snow.  The lower half of Jaws has a pretty nice DFL.


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## riverc0il (Dec 4, 2006)

i love any naturally occurring feature of a trail that miraculously survives a ski area bull dozer.

tramline at cannon is pretty pronounced:







powerline at jay is similar to tramline but way less step:






green beret at jay has some interesting spots:






also at jay are upper milk run and kitzbuehel that do some funky stuff and derrick to a lesser extent. cannon has upper, middle, and lower hardscrabbles which all have some interesting fall lines, the transition from upper to middle hard is one of my favorite parts of the mountain. . mrg has a bunch of really interesting lines, i don't think i have any pictures though. honestly, i am surprised to see the overwhelming majority of people like double fall lines, this is essentially any carver or groomer lover's worst nightmare. even folks who love natural snow might find fighting a double fall difficult in many situations. there aren't a lot of good double falls out there due to ski areas flattening trails.


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## Edd (Dec 4, 2006)

Obsession at Sunday River; pronounced DFL and an underappreciated trail.


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## 2knees (Dec 4, 2006)

riverc0il said:


> i love any naturally occurring feature of a trail that miraculously survives a ski area bull dozer.
> 
> tramline at cannon is pretty pronounced:



holy air.  thats an unbelievable shot RivecOil.  I've ridden the tram in the summer and drooled over that run.  

i enjoy anything with a double fall line myself, but i enjoy just about any trail that isnt blasted, hand groomed in the summer and devoid of all character.


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## eastcoastskiier (Dec 4, 2006)

i'll put myself right in the middle.. just beacuse a trial has a DFL doesn make we want to do it any more or less...  BUT if its between a trail with Natural or ManMadei will chose the natural hands down over the manmade


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## eatskisleep (Dec 4, 2006)

Northwest Passage at Jay Peak too:



http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2344/feb2006a0472kj.jpg


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## Gpaul (Dec 4, 2006)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Ok, ill be the "gaper".  Whats a double fall line?  And while your at it, whats a gaper?



Beat me to it!  The DFL part.  Something new for my next trip, which has BURKE on the ever-changing itinerary:argue: !


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## Hawkshot99 (Dec 4, 2006)

Greg said:


> Brave man.  More gaper info here:
> 
> http://forums.alpinezone.com/8473-you-might-gaper-if.html



That is rough.


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## mattchuck2 (Dec 4, 2006)

Chris I said:


> Cloud as well as Tannery at Gore are horrible for snowboarders.  After a day of sessioning Gore getting back to Bear mtn is torture on the calves if you take these trails



He was referring to Cloudspin at Whiteface as "Cloud".

I hate it when people do that (and it seems as though everyone who skis Whiteface does) because I always get confused and think they're talking about Cloud at Gore.

If you're looking for a double fall line trail at Gore, though, I'd suggest Lies.


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## Big Game (Dec 4, 2006)

Marc said:


> DFL... where I'm from... means "dead fecking last."



Yes, but where I'm from, a DFL (and having many attributed to me) is better than  a DNF.


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## PowderDeprived (Dec 5, 2006)

SteinsRun, Tumbler, and Lots of others at Sugarbush.

Skiing at the Bush, I can't think of much stuff upper intermediate and above that doesn't have some kind of funky fall line to it in some place or another.


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## Mrs. AHM (Dec 5, 2006)

*Double Fall Lines*

What fun, and good for your turn as well.  Gottta love that exceleration when you hit the bizarre transition--  don't forget Paradise;  doesn't matter if it's at the 'Bush or Mad River.  Skiing tomorrow, somehow, some way.....Somewhere....
Mrs. AHM.


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## Gpaul (Dec 5, 2006)

Ok, my turn:

Yes, but where I'm from, a DFL (and having many attributed to me) is better than a DNF.


DNF  ??


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## Terry (Dec 5, 2006)

Did not finish.


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## Gpaul (Dec 5, 2006)

Well, now I recall going in the "woods" with my kid, he loving it, especially when I DNF'ed couple of times.

Nope, me no like that strenuous skiing.

Thanky!


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## hammer (Dec 5, 2006)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Ok, ill be the "gaper".  Whats a double fall line?  And while your at it, whats a gaper?


Here's my gaper question of the day...what is a "triple fall line"? ;-)


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## skiadikt (Dec 5, 2006)

upper lookout at stowe has a dfl. in addition to the downdraft/dipper mess at k, the middle section of devil's fiddle also has one. makes skiing the huge bumps in that section feel like you're swimming upstream. i certainly don't seek out trails with double fall lines, if they're there i deal with them. more challenging but not necessarily more fun.


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## kcyanks1 (Dec 5, 2006)

AdironRider said:


> Whats so bad about Cloudspin for snowboarders? Theres no annoying traverses like Gore has, no real runout, and a sustained pitch. Other than the fact that it bumps up whats so bad. I ride and have yet to encounter any difficulty on Cloud.



By shortening "Cloudspin" to "Cloud," I think you are confusing the other poster, and he is thinking of Cloud at Gore, not Cloudspin at Whiteface.


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## kcyanks1 (Dec 5, 2006)

hammer said:


> Here's my gaper question of the day...what is a "triple fall line"? ;-)



lol.  There's a 60 degree trail in PA that has one, I think.


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## Birdman829 (Dec 5, 2006)

OK. I definitely love double fall lines and other interesting natural features, but there's nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned wide steep groomer once in a while to let your inner racer out. Basically if it's got snow on it, I love skiing it.


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## andyzee (Dec 6, 2006)

andyzee said:


> One double fall line that is a bit decieving is Down Draft running into Double Dipper at Killington. There have been time I didn't realize that it's a DFL and there were big bumps or ice and it just kind of throws you.


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## Newpylong (Dec 6, 2006)

Good call. Lower half of Dipper has a DFL. Also, how about Highline! That one is very prominent....


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## ctenidae (Dec 7, 2006)

hammer said:


> Here's my gaper question of the day...what is a "triple fall line"? ;-)



Ski Denton, the "Steepest Pitch in the East" claims to have a triple fall line. We figure that the TFL, combined with the astronomical speeds you can achieve on a 60+ degree slope, makes it possible to create a space/time warp, so that when you get to the bottom of the run, you're actually at the top, and you get to do it again.

Saves tons on running the lift.


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## andyzee (Dec 7, 2006)

Newpylong said:


> Good call. Lower half of Dipper has a DFL. Also, how about Highline! That one is very prominent....


 

Never really noticed a DFL on Highline, if there, I think it's minimal:


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## Greg (Sep 21, 2007)

Bump.


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## skiNEwhere (Sep 21, 2007)

Shockwave at SR, which I also think is one of the most underrated trails in NE, since White heat takes all the attention.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 21, 2007)

llamborghinii said:


> Shockwave at SR, which I also think is one of the most underrated trails in NE, since White heat takes all the attention.




indeed....great dfl and great trail


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## prisnah (Sep 21, 2007)

Shockwave is a pretty sick trail...I don't know why white heat grabs all the attention, probably cuz of the way they market it or used to market it, personally I think it's junk. Another good DFL is on Upper Exhibition at JP.


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## 2knees (Sep 21, 2007)

i'v  always noticed that highline has a rather pronounced double fall line. 

Not really double fall lines but the hard left turns on some of the hunter trails are always tough in regards to trying to hold a line in the bumps.  I think i tried all day last december on hellgate to maintain a line around the turn and wasnt able to do it.

twilight zone at magic has a nice double fall line.


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## JD (Sep 21, 2007)

I like a good bottom turn, but I like the terrain to change thru the course of a run.  DFL the whole way get's old.


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## tree_skier (Sep 21, 2007)

Now the term double fall line is a oxymoron and only gapers use it.  from wikipedia the definition of a fall line is;

In alpine skiing, a fall line refers to the line down a mountain or hill which is most directly downwards. This can be visualized as the route a ball would take if it were started rolling at the summit, and rolled to the bottom.

So please tell me where the laws of physics don't count and the ball will roll in 2 directions at once.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Sep 21, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> Now the term double fall line is a oxymoron and only gapers use it.  from wikipedia the definition of a fall line is;
> 
> In alpine skiing, a fall line refers to the line down a mountain or hill which is most directly downwards. This can be visualized as the route a ball would take if it were started rolling at the summit, and rolled to the bottom.
> 
> So please tell me where the laws of physics don't count and the ball will roll in 2 directions at once.



single fall lines are on a single axis, double fall line, double axis. pick up a peice of paper, angle it into a straight slope...single fall line, now take that straight slope and rotate it clockwise, counter clockwise, you decide...now you've got a double fall line.  Sure, the ball is only going to take one route down, but there are two angles to the pitch.


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## Greg (Sep 21, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> Now the term double fall line is a oxymoron and only gapers use it.



I am a gaper.


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## highpeaksdrifter (Sep 21, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> Now the term double fall line is a oxymoron and only gapers use it.  from wikipedia the definition of a fall line is;
> 
> In alpine skiing, a fall line refers to the line down a mountain or hill which is most directly downwards. This can be visualized as the route a ball would take if it were started rolling at the summit, and rolled to the bottom.
> 
> So please tell me where the laws of physics don't count and the ball will roll in 2 directions at once.




Good point on the physics. Upper Cloudspin at WF has a true double fall line, IMO, because depending on where you are on the trail the ball will either run off to the left or straight down the trail.

I do think the term is over used. I remember someone awhile ago wrote that Claire's at Hunter has a double fall line. No way. When skiing Upper Cloudspin you can literally turn left and make many turns down to the edge of the trail or take a line straight down the trail. It's the best double fall line trail I've ever been on anywhere.

To me a trail isn't double fall line just because it tilts a little left or right.


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## JimG. (Sep 21, 2007)

The ground is the ground. I honestly don't think much about the contours. Sometimes the undulations are a function of snowmaking piles. Whatever.

Ski it.


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## tree_skier (Sep 21, 2007)

The fall line is relative to the point you are talking about and in simple terms is the direction a ball would take from that spot.  Again physics dictate that the ball will only go in on direction from any one point.  I would like someone to show me the point where the ball will go 2 directions and thus give us a double fall line.


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## tree_skier (Sep 21, 2007)

highpeaksdrifter said:


> Good point on the physics. Upper Cloudspin at WF has a true double fall line, IMO, because depending on where you are on the trail the ball will either run off to the left or straight down the trail..




The fall line is from a point.  if you look at it as being the line the ball takes from the top of the trail then every angle change indicates a new fall line and unless the trail is perfectly flat then you will have a very large number of fall lines.


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## JimG. (Sep 21, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> The fall line is from a point.  if you look at it as being the line the ball takes from the top of the trail then every angle change indicates a new fall line and unless the trail is perfectly flat then you will have a very large number of fall lines.



This must explain Denton PA's famous triple fall line.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Sep 21, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> The fall line is relative to the point you are talking about and in simple terms is the direction a ball would take from that spot.  Again physics dictate that the ball will only go in on direction from any one point.  I would like someone to show me the point where the ball will go 2 directions and thus give us a double fall line.



wow, talk about narrow in your scope here...:roll:  Keep in mind we are referring to double fall line *TRAILS*.  Okay, take that little piece of paper you've been using as a visable aid...still on the straight slope if you'd like,  Fold it in half down the "pitch" so you've got a ^ shape, this is your TRAIL...tilt the a-frame shaped piece of paper up on an angle with the spine as the highest point...now imagine a ball on top of that...if it goes off to the right, it'll go one way, off to the left another, straight down the spine, a third...so there's your 2 directions and another for good measure.


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## SkiDork (Sep 21, 2007)

the Gnarlier the better


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## sledhaulingmedic (Sep 21, 2007)

2knees said:


> i'v always noticed that highline has a rather pronounced double fall line.
> 
> Not really double fall lines but the hard left turns on some of the hunter trails are always tough in regards to trying to hold a line in the bumps. I think i tried all day last december on hellgate to maintain a line around the turn and wasnt able to do it.
> 
> twilight zone at magic has a nice double fall line.


 
The vast majority of the steeper trails at Magic are DFL, Both on Map glades, Parts of Redline, The upper part of lucifer, Witch, Blackline (whether or not that's really a trail is a point of contention).

I think Magic is where I first heard the term "Double Fall Line".


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## tree_skier (Sep 21, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> wow, talk about narrow in your scope here...:roll:  Keep in mind we are referring to double fall line *TRAILS*.  Okay, take that little piece of paper you've been using as a visable aid...still on the straight slope if you'd like,  Fold it in half down the "pitch" so you've got a ^ shape, this is your TRAIL...tilt the a-frame shaped piece of paper up on an angle with the spine as the highest point...now imagine a ball on top of that...if it goes off to the right, it'll go one way, off to the left another, straight down the spine, a third...so there's your 2 directions and another for good measure.




So let me see if I have your perspective down.

Single fall line - no tilt to eaither side

Double fall line - tilts to one side

Triple fall line - tilts to one side then tils to the other further down

Quad fall line - tilts to one side then the other then back to the first

That does make alot of sense seeing how the only point that affects you skiing is the point that your skis are in contact with the snow, and at that point there is only one fall line.


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## Greg (Sep 21, 2007)

tree_skier said:


> That does make alot of sense seeing how the only point that affects you skiing is the point that your skis are in contact with the snow, and at that point there is only one fall line.



Which is constantly changing; unless of course you prefer to ski standing still...

Talk about overanalization! :roll:


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## Dr Skimeister (Sep 21, 2007)

See if this explanation works.....

On a trail with a single fall line, if you were to allow your skis to run unchecked they would end up at the bottom/terminus of the trail.

On a trail with a double fall line, there is a better chance of skis running unchecked ending up in real estate lateral to the axis of the trail than at the terminus.

Next on "Ask the Ski Physicist"....Why does snot fall "up" when you're skiing?


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## ctenidae (Sep 21, 2007)

Dr Skimeister said:


> See if this explanation works.....
> 
> On a trail with a single fall line, if you were to allow your skis to run unchecked they would end up at the bottom/terminus of the trail.
> 
> ...



And on a triple fall line trail, if left to run unchecked you would end up back where you started.
Given, of course, that you reach 88 mph.


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## prisnah (Sep 21, 2007)

I loved DFL's when this thread started, now I'm just sick of hearing about physics. I thought we were here to talk about skiing, not argue moot points. The only science I wanna listen to now is gravity and acceleration. Oh and maybe some frozen condensation. Who cares about the technical aspects, just  ski it.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Sep 21, 2007)

prisnah said:


> I loved DFL's when this thread started, now I'm just sick of hearing about physics. I thought we were here to talk about skiing, not argue moot points. The only science I wanna listen to now is gravity and acceleration. Oh and maybe some frozen condensation. Who cares about the technical aspects, just  ski it.



its september...we're bored at work, and we can't ski...whaddaya expect?  At least we're not using a ski forum to talk about baseball and football like some of the others I've seen.


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## prisnah (Sep 21, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> its september...we're bored at work, and we can't ski...whaddaya expect?



I expect some Friday afternoon stoke.....please have it on my desk by close of business. ;-)

Wow i messed that quote up pretty bad.


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## Phildozer (Sep 21, 2007)

prisnah said:


> I loved DFL's when this thread started, now I'm just sick of hearing about physics. I thought we were here to talk about skiing, not argue moot points. The only science I wanna listen to now is gravity and acceleration. Oh and maybe some frozen condensation. Who cares about the technical aspects, just  ski it.




Some of us nerds love the physics of skiing.


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## JimG. (Sep 21, 2007)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> At least we're not using a ski forum to talk about baseball and football like some of the others I've seen.



Hey! Wait just a durned minute.

Don't get us all American sports fans involved in this science project.


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## ctenidae (Sep 21, 2007)

JimG. said:


> Hey! Wait just a durned minute.
> 
> Don't get us all American sports fans involved in this science project.



Football and baseball? More like "Only" American sports fans, there.


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## Marc (Sep 21, 2007)

Phildozer said:


> Some of us nerds love the physics of skiing.



Except I haven't seen any physics being discussed in this thread as of yet.


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## jack97 (Sep 21, 2007)

Phildozer said:


> Some of us nerds love the physics of skiing.



It's a great book :smash:

http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Skiin...5895615?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190402053&sr=8-1


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 21, 2007)

I think they are awesome..Liftline at Castlerock is a great example along with the top of goat..and many other east coast classics..Any challenge is a good thing..especially here in the east since our terrain is on the flat side compared to out west..great pictures


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Sep 21, 2007)

Greg said:


> What's it like to have skied every trail in the East?




ahahahahahahaha:smash::flame:


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## riverc0il (Sep 21, 2007)

JD said:


> I like a good bottom turn, but I like the terrain to change thru the course of a run.  DFL the whole way get's old.


I have come around to this line of thinking. A weird kink in the trail, weird angle on a turn, etc. is exciting but a double fall for a long period of time definitely gets old when the terrain is not changing. A long double fall often means that the trail isn't turning. I like trails that buck like a mule.


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