# Season Pass Options/Considerations



## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2020)

This this larger conversation started in the Sugarbush thread and is in other threads as well.  I thought it deserves its own discussion!

With all the new options and deadline changes insurance/assurances there is a lot going on!



Hawk said:


> The way I read it is that I got $200 off next year from IKON.  If I had an Epic I would get $145 back because I would have had a full pass and skied over 40 days in 19/20.  So explain to me how Epic one-uped me?
> 
> It amazes me how f-ing cheap most people are.  This is skiing.  it is not a right, it's a privilege of people who actually have the money to ski.
> 
> Mountain do not owe any of us anything and I think IKON has been more than generous.  Considering how much I used my pass I was expecting nothing.



The first part I do not think people are being cheap!  I think you buy the experience you want like I mentioned in the earlier post.  A lot come into play like “Will I travel?” or “Do I want to ski resorts that are closer?” or “Do I like the resorts on the pass making a fur the drive worth it?”.  There is also the bang for the buck!  Which I think you refer to as being cheap.  I used to ski Cannon for $273 per season could I have skied elsewhere?  Absolutely!  But for the price it was worth choosing Cannon because the experience was good and the price was right.

I do not think that anyone on this forum expects Ikon or Epic or independents owe them anything but t here are those that do, hence the class action suits.  As a result, new offerings  have been crafted.  So people are looking at the choices which differ for everyone.



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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> This this larger conversation started in the Sugarbush thread and is in other threads as well.  I thought it deserves its own discussion!
> 
> With all the new options and deadline changes insurance/assurances there is a lot going on!
> 
> ...



As to the part about people judging others as cheap or complaining, we have no idea what other folks are going through financially.  I think that in a time like this a little bit of empathy goes a long ways.  

As to our pass situation, we have one IKON passholder (my wife) and she is luke warm about renewing for other reasons.  Our local areas are all still in a holding position.  As far as I am concerned it is a good thing.  We can wait.


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## mbedle (Apr 29, 2020)

And for this I am so glad that I only basically ski at Stowe, with a trip out west each year. The credit, pass insurance and 20% off food and beverage is a nice bonus.


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## gregnye (Apr 29, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> As to our pass situation, we have one IKON passholder (my wife) and she is luke warm about renewing for other reasons.  Our local areas are all still in a holding position.  As far as I am concerned it is a good thing.  We can wait.



The whole idea that people should purchases passes by now is crazy when you stop to think about it. 

Recently, early March is when the passes are released. There's still 2 months left of the year skiing-wise (normally), and they already want you to start thinking about the next year.

Prior to Epic/Ikon, I don't remember it being this early. It's like stores putting out christmas merchandise right after September ends--kind of unnecessary.

I mean normally it's uncertain what the next year will be like when you purchase in March. You could move. You could break your leg/arm and be unable to ski. This year with COVID-19 it really just highlights how much of a gamble the early purchasing of passes are for the customers.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 29, 2020)

Book your travel now as you'll never get a cheaper vacation.  You can get ski season flights out west for about 1/2 price to 2/3 price, and there are some pretty crazy lodging deals going on now as well.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2020)

gregnye said:


> The whole idea that people should purchases passes by now is crazy when you stop to think about it.
> 
> Recently, early March is when the passes are released. There's still 2 months left of the year skiing-wise (normally), and they already want you to start thinking about the next year.
> 
> Prior to Epic/Ikon, I don't remember it being this early.



Looks like 15 years ago (as far back as my Sugarbush e-mails go), season passes went on sale in early April with an early May early price deadline. I think a lot of the on sale dates shifting earlier has happened for 2 reasons:
1) Coinciding more with "spring pass" sales where they started giving people the option of buying next year's pass and being able to use it from mid/late March through the end of the current season.
2) Competition of various resorts and products trying to outdo others to capture more market-share.

As for the notion that giving resorts money now is pointless, I disagree. Resorts spend a significant amount of money during the summer to prepare for next season. Giving them money now helps ensure they have the money to do that yearly work. Even giving money to a "big" company like Alterra still helps ensure they can filter some of it down to the local level to help out the people working for those resorts in those local communities. (I'm sure someone will argue the resorts could have planned better or had more money in the bank, etc...but at least I have some personal sense that I'm somehow helping the locals at my resort whether it is true or not).

This may also be a bit of an odd reason, but for Ikon at least, buying now has a bit of a benefit from an insurance perspective (if you plan to take the optional insurance). The loss of job clause kicks in 30 days after the effective date. The effective date is when you pay the policy premium (i.e. when you purchase your pass). As long as I have the money now, I'd rather lock that clause in as early as possible just in case something did happen down the road.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2020)

I think the early sales often have spring skiing opportunity attached to hook new pass holders and get existing pass holders to bite by offering $50 less if they renew early


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2020)

gregnye said:


> The whole idea that people should purchases passes by now is crazy when you stop to think about it.
> 
> Recently, early March is when the passes are released. There's still 2 months left of the year skiing-wise (normally), and they already want you to start thinking about the next year.
> 
> Prior to Epic/Ikon, I don't remember it being this early. It's like stores putting out christmas merchandise right after September ends--kind of unnecessary.



Bingo.  At least in my experience, when I was back east, ski areas sold passes at a discount starting in like March or April with cutoffs being somewhere in May or June usually.  I figured it was due to competition.  

Out here I was stunned in 2011 to see that Alta and Snowbird in particular did not even release pass prices until July or so and the cutoff for early discounts was late August or September.  That has inched up pretty much every year although in 2017-2018, a terrible ski season out here, the dates all of the sudden became price release in March, early discount cutoff in early May.  A huge change.  They stuck with that last year, in part I imagine to compete with IKON/EPIC because honestly some folks won't take a "wait and see" approach and gamble on a higher price.  They had started down that same path of pushing passes in early-March but then yanked everything off the market.  Snowbird is promising "something" for their (declining) "loyal passholders" to make up for the early closure.  We'll see what happens.


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## slatham (Apr 29, 2020)

Hum, interesting. 

I speculate this all has to do with snowmaking. It seems that historically it was the eastern areas that had early season pass sales. Was this caused by a higher and historical reliance on snowmaking? I would guess that 20-30 years ago, most western areas had very limited snowmaking, and thus little summer maintenance, at least vs eastern areas. Does this hold water?


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2020)

slatham said:


> Hum, interesting.
> 
> I speculate this all has to do with snowmaking. It seems that historically it was the eastern areas that had early season pass sales. Was this caused by a higher and historical reliance on snowmaking? I would guess that 20-30 years ago, most western areas had very limited snowmaking, and thus little summer maintenance, at least vs eastern areas. Does this hold water?



I think it is that, as well as competition.  And at least in the past a lot of areas did these things called capital improvements and expansion in the summer.


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 29, 2020)

slatham said:


> *I would guess that 20-30 years ago, most western areas had very limited snowmaking*



Do western areas have impressive snowmaking today?   I've not really noticed that.


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## 1dog (Apr 29, 2020)

The larger and most efficent resorts make their money way ahead of the weather curve, as the below link indicates. The time/vaue of money is the most important factor.

If like the season ticket holder of say the Patriots or the Green Bay Packers have very early season purchases - guaranteeing a more even cash flow and a cash flow at all when 20-30 years ago it wss a weather and econimic crap-shoot.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/09/29/is-vail-resorts-a-buy.aspx

You'll see Vail increasing its annual  early season buy in by rasing day prices and growing season ticket sales from 35% in 2017 to 47% on 2018/19. 

Its just good business. How they treat their customer is another argument. 

But driving the day prices up to drive the season pass purchases up is brilliant - can't do that withoyrt some volume of resorts to offer for some economies of scale.

I don't own an Epic - I'm an Ikon holder - but I sure wish I purhcased the stock a few years ago. . . . .


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do western areas have impressive snowmaking today?   I've not really noticed that.



Monarch has zero snowmaking!   Obviously Silverton does not make snow.  Loveland and A Basin have enough snowmaking to compete for early opening.  Breck and Keystone have significant snowmaking to get a base down on many groomers but percentage wise most have maybe 15-20 percent snowmaking coverage at least here in Colorado.


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## icecoast1 (Apr 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do western areas have impressive snowmaking today?   I've not really noticed that.



Depends on how you look at it.  In terms of percentage of acres covered, not really.  But in terms of pumping capacity, there are some large snowmaking systems out west


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## Smellytele (Apr 29, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Looks like 15 years ago (as far back as my Sugarbush e-mails go), season passes went on sale in early April with an early May early price deadline. I think a lot of the on sale dates shifting earlier has happened for 2 reasons:
> 1) Coinciding more with "spring pass" sales where they started giving people the option of buying next year's pass and being able to use it from mid/late March through the end of the current season.
> 2) Competition of various resorts and products trying to outdo others to capture more market-share.
> 
> ...



you save emails for 15 years?


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> you save emails for 15 years?



Actually I have 22 years worth of e-mails...but I apparently only subscribed to Sugarbush's mailing list since December 2004 :lol:


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## Smellytele (Apr 29, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Actually I have 22 years worth of e-mails...but I apparently only subscribed to Sugarbush's mailing list since December 2004 :lol:



That's crazy!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 29, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Do western areas have impressive snowmaking today?   I've not really noticed that.



Some do; some don't.  You'd be surprised how much Alta and Snowbird have.  Not as much % wise as on the east coast.  

Deer Valley and Park City have a lot relatively speaking.  In fact, when LBO bought Park West and made it Canyons locals were perplexed as to why he spent so much on snowmaking.  Many laughed about it.


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## snoseek (Apr 29, 2020)

Heavenly claims like the most powerful in the country but there's just no way they hang with killington sunday river or even loon or cannon imho.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Depends on how you look at it.  In terms of percentage of acres covered, not really.  But in terms of pumping capacity, there are some large snowmaking systems out west



Breck and Keystone can lay it down and open terrain like nobody’s business!  But have about 600 acres of snowmaking out of 3000+ acres.  They open  600 acres fast!  They have the largest snowmaking systems in Colorado as well as Beaver Creek.


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## cdskier (Apr 29, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> That's crazy!



LOL. I'm mostly just terrible with actually deleting things...


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 29, 2020)

cdskier said:


> LOL. I'm mostly just terrible with actually deleting things...



I find that I get so junk mail that I don’t bother anymore that was too time consuming 


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## BenedictGomez (Apr 29, 2020)

cdskier said:


> LOL. I'm mostly just terrible with actually deleting things...



I dont even bother, and I too have emails that are 20 years old.  Occasionally it accidentally proves useful.


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## WinS (Apr 30, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Looks like 15 years ago (as far back as my Sugarbush e-mails go), season passes went on sale in early April with an early May early price deadline. I think a lot of the on sale dates shifting earlier has happened for 2 reasons:
> 1) Coinciding more with "spring pass" sales where they started giving people the option of buying next year's pass and being able to use it from mid/late March through the end of the current season.
> 2) Competition of various resorts and products trying to outdo others to capture more market-share.
> 
> ...



You are correct. The ski industry business model is a very challenging one. The vast majority of ski mountains make their money from late December until late March or early April and then drain cash for the next 9 months. Spring pass sales have allowed them to support the needed summer staffing for maintenance and capital improvements. Without this resorts would have to borrow if they can and or capital injections from another source. Many ski resorts have attempted to build more robust summer businesses and this has helped summer cash flow but is not adequate by itself to do what is needed for summer maintenance and capital improvements.


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## skiur (Apr 30, 2020)

on behalf of the entire Killington Resort team, we appreciate your loyal patronage as a Killington Season Passholder. We are proud of the experiences we deliver at Killington and particularly proud of the memories we shared with you this season before we suspended operations on March 15. From day one on the new North Ridge Quad in November (first in the East again!), to the introduction of Woodward Mountain Park, another successful HomeLight Killington Cup and 133 days of terrific skiing and riding, the season we did have was an unforgettable one.

As a thank you for being a part of this season, and in response to the impact COVID-19 has had, today we are announcing the
Killington Passholder Promise:

VOUCHER: As a qualifying 2019-20 season passholder, you will receive a voucher toward a 2020/21 season pass or K-Ticket.
REFUND AVAILABLE – BUY WITH CONFIDENCE: We will issue a full refund before November 20, 2020 for any passholder who has not used his/her 2020/21 pass and desires a refund for any reason.
BEST PRICING: Best pricing on 2020-21 season passes has been extended through July 15, 2020.
FLEXIBLE PAYMENT PLAN: The three-installment payment plan is available for ease and flexibility through July 15, 2020.
ANNUAL SUBSCRIPTION PASS: Our Beast 365 all seasons, unlimited subscription pass allows you to pay monthly and if we are not open due to COVID-19, you will not be charged for that month.

Your voucher value is based on the type and age group of the 2019-20 pass purchased, and is valid through the end of the 2020-21 season.

Voucher dollar amounts
Adult Unlimited Pass $150 Voucher
29 & Below Unlimited Pass $100 Voucher
Youth Unlimited Pass $100 Voucher
Senior Unlimited Pass $100 Voucher
Midweek Pass $75 Voucher
Vermont Student Pass $50 Voucher

CLICK HERE to redeem your voucher and vouchers for other 2019-20 passholders linked to your account or call 800-621-6867 to purchase by phone. Additional redemption details and voucher information can be accessed HERE.

Although we fully expect to be open for summer operations and the 2020-21 ski season, we know that the COVID-19 situation is causing uncertainty, and the Passholder Promise is designed to let you plan and purchase with confidence. Regardless of which pass products you have purchased in the past, we hope you’ll consider the Beast 365 Pass. The up-front cost is low, and the monthly subscription fee will not be charged if operations are suspended due to COVID-19, making it the perfect pass for these uncertain times. The pass also provides tremendous value with year-round access to the resort plus skiing and riding at 39 additional destinations with the included Ikon Base Pass.

Since the spread of coronavirus began, our top priority has been to address the safety and well-being of our employees, guests, and community, including loyal passholders like you. We are extremely appreciative of your patience and support as we have worked through this situation, and developed this plan. We hope that you find this token of our gratitude as a genuine regard for your support and patronage, and we hope that you continue to stay healthy and do what you can to support your friends and neighbors so that we may all resume doing what we love with those we love when these challenging times subside. We remain hopeful to be able to ski and ride on Superstar again this spring.

Thank you and please stay safe,

Mike Solimano

President and General Manager

Killington Resort and Pico Mountain


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## thetrailboss (Apr 30, 2020)

skiur said:


> on behalf of the entire Killington Resort team, we appreciate your loyal patronage as a Killington Season Passholder. We are proud of the experiences we deliver at Killington and particularly proud of the memories we shared with you this season before we suspended operations on March 15. From day one on the new North Ridge Quad in November (first in the East again!), to the introduction of Woodward Mountain Park, another successful HomeLight Killington Cup and 133 days of terrific skiing and riding, the season we did have was an unforgettable one.
> 
> As a thank you for being a part of this season, and in response to the impact COVID-19 has had, today we are announcing the
> Killington Passholder Promise:
> ...



Good response IMHO


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## machski (Apr 30, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Breck and Keystone can lay it down and open terrain like nobody’s business!  But have about 600 acres of snowmaking out of 3000+ acres.  They open  600 acres fast!  They have the largest snowmaking systems in Colorado as well as Beaver Creek.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Copper can as well, their system covers a lot more terrain than I thought.  Very surprised.  And Vail was in the midst of one of the largest if not largest Snowmaking expansions in the country prior to the virus hitting.  Believe they want to add 600 acres of coverage to the several hundred they already had.

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## machski (Apr 30, 2020)

skiur said:


> on behalf of the entire Killington Resort team, we appreciate your loyal patronage as a Killington Season Passholder. We are proud of the experiences we deliver at Killington and particularly proud of the memories we shared with you this season before we suspended operations on March 15. From day one on the new North Ridge Quad in November (first in the East again!), to the introduction of Woodward Mountain Park, another successful HomeLight Killington Cup and 133 days of terrific skiing and riding, the season we did have was an unforgettable one.
> 
> As a thank you for being a part of this season, and in response to the impact COVID-19 has had, today we are announcing the
> Killington Passholder Promise:
> ...


Remain hopeful to ski Superstar again this spring?  Only way I see that happening is running it like Mt. Baldy's model of arrival/chair reservations.  But with so much less acreage in  play at K, don't see how they could work it.  And it is already a money bleed anyway into May, would be even worse this year if they have to construct guests per day or hour.  Nice fantasy, but that's it.

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## JimG. (Apr 30, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Good response IMHO



I'm pleased as well.

Lately I've been pondering not buying the K 365 pass and just going the NYS 3 in 1 for the season.

Then I got my $150 voucher today towards a new pass and I like the insurance the 365 provides if there is a closure due to virus...if they are closed there is no monthly payment. So now this is a go. ​


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## JimG. (Apr 30, 2020)

machski said:


> Remain hopeful to ski Superstar again this spring?  Only way I see that happening is running it like Mt. Baldy's model of arrival/chair reservations.  But with so much less acreage in  play at K, don't see how they could work it.  And it is already a money bleed anyway into May, would be even worse this year if they have to construct guests per day or hour.  Nice fantasy, but that's it.



It is highly unlikely.

I wonder how they would prioritize who got to ski if they did open up though. Locals only? Season passholders only? VT Residents only?


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## skiur (Apr 30, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I'm pleased as well.
> 
> Lately I've been pondering not buying the K 365 pass and just going the NYS 3 in 1 for the season.
> 
> Then I got my $150 voucher today towards a new pass and I like the insurance the 365 provides if there is a closure due to virus...if they are closed there is no monthly payment. So now this is a go. ​



The 365 had become a no brainier with the inclusion of the ikon base pass with it.


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## machski (Apr 30, 2020)

JimG. said:


> It is highly unlikely.
> 
> I wonder how they would prioritize who got to ski if they did open up though. Locals only? Season passholders only? VT Residents only?


I would guess it would be like Baldy, have to pre-reserve your time/ticket, even passholders (although they would just reserve a time and not have to buy a ticket).

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## JimG. (Apr 30, 2020)

skiur said:


> The 365 had become a no brainier with the inclusion of the ikon base pass with it.



Agreed, I was coming from the unique angle of the virus thing only.


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## dblskifanatic (Apr 30, 2020)

machski said:


> Copper can as well, their system covers a lot more terrain than I thought.  Very surprised.  And Vail was in the midst of one of the largest if not largest Snowmaking expansions in the country prior to the virus hitting.  Believe they want to add 600 acres of coverage to the several hundred they already had.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Copper has less that 400 acres which they rely on to ski teams to come for training before they open to the public.

Vial currently has 475 adding 600 would make theirs the one with most coverage for sure but they need it it sits lower and gets pretty firm during early season.


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## Smellytele (May 6, 2020)

Epic:
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*1. If You Purchased a Lift Ticket During the 2019/20 Season:*
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Apply the value of your lift ticket from last season, up to $150, toward an already amazing deal on our passes. If you want unlimited skiing and riding, an Epic Pass or Epic Local Pass provides saving of up to 65%. If you are looking to lock in 4-7 flexible days for next season, our Epic Day Pass provides up to 50% off lift ticket prices. Explore more at *Epicpass.com*.

Turn In Your Ticket credits historically had to be used by spring, but now you have until Labor Day to decide. *You will receive an email outlining your lift ticket credit details and your promotion code* in late May. If you purchase a pass prior to receiving your promotion code, we will retroactively provide the Turn In Your Ticket credit back to you. In the meantime, click *here* to see our FAQs about the Turn in Your Ticket Program


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## boston_e (May 10, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I'm pleased as well.
> 
> Lately I've been pondering not buying the K 365 pass and just going the NYS 3 in 1 for the season.
> 
> Then I got my $150 voucher today towards a new pass and I like the insurance the 365 provides if there is a closure due to virus...if they are closed there is no monthly payment. So now this is a go. ​



My question for a possible scenario which hasn't been mentioned.... (And I messaged Killington on it).... what if Killington is able to open, but Vermont maintains a 14 day quarantine policy for anyone who comes in form out of state?  For any of us coming form MA / NY etc, that would render the pass essentially not usable even if the mountain is able to open.  What happens then?  And would they allow us to freeze our passes under such circumstances?

(We had been fully planning on 365 passes this year for sure)


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## skiur (May 10, 2020)

boston_e said:


> My question for a possible scenario which hasn't been mentioned.... (And I messaged Killington on it).... what if Killington is able to open, but Vermont maintains a 14 day quarantine policy for anyone who comes in form out of state?  For any of us coming form MA / NY etc, that would render the pass essentially not usable even if the mountain is able to open.  What happens then?  And would they allow us to freeze our passes under such circumstances?
> 
> (We had been fully planning on 365 passes this year for sure)



It's the middle of May.  K would have been down to weekends only and nobody else would be open after this past weekend.  Skiing is done for the season.  Time to move on.


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## boston_e (May 10, 2020)

skiur said:


> It's the middle of May.  K would have been down to weekends only and nobody else would be open after this past weekend.  Skiing is done for the season.  Time to move on.



Are you familiar with the Killington 365 pass?  Im' not talking about skiing this spring.  Im talking about mt biking / golf / adventure center this summer and yes, even skiing next season.


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## thetrailboss (May 11, 2020)

boston_e said:


> My question for a possible scenario which hasn't been mentioned.... (And I messaged Killington on it).... what if Killington is able to open, but Vermont maintains a 14 day quarantine policy for anyone who comes in form out of state?  For any of us coming form MA / NY etc, that would render the pass essentially not usable even if the mountain is able to open.  What happens then?  And would they allow us to freeze our passes under such circumstances?
> 
> (We had been fully planning on 365 passes this year for sure)



That is a good question.


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## cdskier (May 11, 2020)

boston_e said:


> My question for a possible scenario which hasn't been mentioned.... (And I messaged Killington on it).... what if Killington is able to open, but Vermont maintains a 14 day quarantine policy for anyone who comes in form out of state?  For any of us coming form MA / NY etc, that would render the pass essentially not usable even if the mountain is able to open.  What happens then?  And would they allow us to freeze our passes under such circumstances?
> 
> (We had been fully planning on 365 passes this year for sure)



In that scenario, would it even be viable from a financial perspective for K to open? A significant portion of their revenue (for skiing at least, perhaps not as much golf/mountain biking) comes from out of state visitors I would imagine. Some smaller local mountains in VT could potentially survive with VT skiers only, but I can't imagine that working out well for most of the larger resorts.


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## machski (May 11, 2020)

Boyne dropped their enhanced NEP provisions for season guarentee/refunds/discounts today.  Pretty legit:

https://www.sundayriver.com/season-passes/new-england-pass-promise

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## boston_e (May 11, 2020)

cdskier said:


> In that scenario, would it even be viable from a financial perspective for K to open? A significant portion of their revenue (for skiing at least, perhaps not as much golf/mountain biking) comes from out of state visitors I would imagine. Some smaller local mountains in VT could potentially survive with VT skiers only, but I can't imagine that working out well for most of the larger resorts.



I'm really not sure.  I agree probably not for winter operations, but maybe for summer?


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## Jully (May 11, 2020)

machski said:


> Boyne dropped their enhanced NEP provisions for season guarentee/refunds/discounts today.  Pretty legit:
> 
> https://www.sundayriver.com/season-passes/new-england-pass-promise
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



Is the 150 days a combined 150 of operation across the 3 resorts or are they guaranteeing that one resort will have 150 days of operation?


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## slatham (May 11, 2020)

Jully said:


> Is the 150 days a combined 150 of operation across the 3 resorts or are they guaranteeing that one resort will have 150 days of operation?



As I read it, its a pass for three areas so it would need to be 150 days between them. Not each resort needs to operate 150 days.


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## Jully (May 11, 2020)

slatham said:


> As I read it, its a pass for three areas so it would need to be 150 days between them. Not each resort needs to operate 150 days.



That is what I figured too


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## JimG. (May 11, 2020)

boston_e said:


> My question for a possible scenario which hasn't been mentioned.... (And I messaged Killington on it).... what if Killington is able to open, but Vermont maintains a 14 day quarantine policy for anyone who comes in form out of state?  For any of us coming form MA / NY etc, that would render the pass essentially not usable even if the mountain is able to open.  What happens then?  And would they allow us to freeze our passes under such circumstances?
> 
> (We had been fully planning on 365 passes this year for sure)



I have the same concern. It is possible I will buy a NYS 3 in 1 only for next season if K cannot mitigate the risk you have brought up.

I was stoked to buy the 365 as well but being a dreaded "flatlander" from NY makes me wonder if I should make that investment; it may not pay off for me.


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## icecoast1 (May 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I have the same concern. It is possible I will buy a NYS 3 in 1 only for next season if K cannot mitigate the risk you have brought up.
> 
> I was stoked to buy the 365 as well but being a dreaded "flatlander" from NY makes me wonder if I should make that investment; it may not pay off for me.



Isnt part of the phased reopening easing restrictions like that?  Not to mention it was totally unenforceable.  Vermont is allowing lodging reservations again starting June 15th, doesnt seem like something theyd do if they didnt want out of staters


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## machski (May 11, 2020)

Jully said:


> That is what I figured too


Yup, that is it.  So SR opens early and goes 145 days, but SL opens a week later and goes the same 145 days then they would hit 152 and no credit for 21-22.  I am assuming Loon wouldn't be the pusher on either end, but could be I suppose depending on State restrictions or actions next season.

Still, for me this is great.  I don't mind using the pass if they get open early before the put option deadline, since if they are forced to close up again virus wise, I'll get some skiing in and some credit towards 21-22 as well.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## JimG. (May 11, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Isnt part of the phased reopening easing restrictions like that?  Not to mention it was totally unenforceable.  Vermont is allowing lodging reservations again starting June 15th, doesnt seem like something theyd do if they didnt want out of staters



The problem is all of these restrictions/relaxations seem random and vary from state to state. 

What would stop them from taking my hotel reservation but then telling me I can't ski? As ridiculous as that sounds if you told me 2 months ago I'd be forced to sit at home most of the time and wear a mask if I leave the house that would seem even more ridiculous!

It's all so unpredictable and untrustworthy that I'm having difficulty making any commitments confidently and I don't do business without a certain level of confidence. So I may just hold on to my cash and ski NY only.


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## boston_e (May 11, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Isnt part of the phased reopening easing restrictions like that?  Not to mention it was totally unenforceable.  Vermont is allowing lodging reservations again starting June 15th, doesnt seem like something theyd do if they didnt want out of staters



I guess for now that is the plan, although I haven't seen anything officially announced... and even if they do away with the 14 day quarantine, who knows if it comes back or not?  This thing could definitely come and go in waves.  

As to being enforceable or not, I'm not sure that "we are open, if you are from out of state disregard the 14 day protocol and come ski anyway" is a message that Killington can really put out there.  Enforceable or not, if a 14 day quarantine is recommended for anyone coming in from out of state, there will be a large percentage of guests who would want to do the socially responsible thing and stick to guidelines.


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## ScottySkis (May 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> The problem is all of these restrictions/relaxations seem random and vary from state to state.
> 
> What would stop them from taking my hotel reservation but then telling me I can't ski? As ridiculous as that sounds if you told me 2 months ago I'd be forced to sit at home most of the time and wear a mask if I leave the house that would seem even more ridiculous!
> 
> It's all so unpredictable and untrustworthy that I'm having difficulty making any commitments confidently and I don't do business without a certain level of confidence. So I may just hold on to my cash and ski NY only.



I just hope NY 3 places have budget for snowmaking


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## JimG. (May 11, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> I just hope NY 3 places have budget for snowmaking



Well, if they don't maybe I'll take up ice fishing.


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## ScottySkis (May 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Well, if they don't maybe I'll take up ice fishing.



Lol very true


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## thebigo (May 12, 2020)

We had the same discussion about potential travel restrictions in our house over the weekend but for us it was epic local vs epic northeast. Original plan was to take the kids west for the first time but will save the money and plan local. Good thing about being an nh resident is that a family can easily get sufficient value in state. Actually a locals only season at wildcat would redefine epic but doubt it would be financially sustainable. Still deciding whether to tack on an ikon for myself and older daughter to cover early/late season plus her competitions, she was planning competitive moguls but not sure that will still happen.


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## Smellytele (May 12, 2020)

thebigo said:


> We had the same discussion about potential travel restrictions in our house over the weekend but for us it was epic local vs epic northeast. Original plan was to take the kids west for the first time but will save the money and plan local. Good thing about being an nh resident is that a family can easily get sufficient value in state. Actually a locals only season at wildcat would redefine epic but doubt it would be financially sustainable. Still deciding whether to tack on an ikon for myself and older daughter to cover early/late season plus her competitions, she was planning competitive moguls but not sure that will still happen.



We were going to go with epic local and head west for my youngest son’s senior February vaca but with the uncertainty we are now going with the Northeast epic as well. 
We now are looking at 2022 for the western trip. Not sure if all 3 boys will have the same break but we’ll figure that out later. We were only bringing the youngest for his senior trip but my oldest will be a college senior so it may work out.


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## p_levert (May 12, 2020)

JimG. said:


> The problem is all of these restrictions/relaxations seem random and vary from state to state.
> 
> What would stop them from taking my hotel reservation but then telling me I can't ski? As ridiculous as that sounds if you told me 2 months ago I'd be forced to sit at home most of the time and wear a mask if I leave the house that would seem even more ridiculous!
> 
> It's all so unpredictable and untrustworthy that I'm having difficulty making any commitments confidently and I don't do business without a certain level of confidence. So I may just hold on to my cash and ski NY only.



As soon as you cross a state line, the risk of some sort of pandemic restriction goes up by a lot.  Also, Vermont has shown itself to very cautious about this pandemic.  So it certainly seems safer to go with a Ski3.  And you will retain the possibility of buying a Kmart spring pass next March.


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## Killingtime (May 12, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Well, if they don't maybe I'll take up ice fishing.



Ha! Yeah, this may be the year for me to forget about a pass product and start exploring some backcountry areas that you can hike into. Problem is the wife won't be digging that idea but if I sell it the right way there may be a chance. I'm still in wait and see mode as are most people, I think.


----------



## JimG. (May 12, 2020)

p_levert said:


> As soon as you cross a state line, the risk of some sort of pandemic restriction goes up by a lot.  Also, Vermont has shown itself to very cautious about this pandemic.  So it certainly seems safer to go with a Ski3.  And you will retain the possibility of buying a Kmart spring pass next March.



Safer except NY is as lockdown happy as VT. And with a multi-billion dollar deficit in the state budget because NY closed up shop who is to say there will be any money for snowmaking? 

You know, this might be the season I don't get any season passes.

Time will tell I still have a few months to see what happens before I have to deal with deadlines.


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## thetrailboss (May 12, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Safer except NY is as lockdown happy as VT. And with a multi-billion dollar deficit in the state budget because NY closed up shop who is to say there will be any money for snowmaking?
> 
> You know, this might be the season I don't get any season passes.
> 
> Time will tell I still have a few months to see what happens before I have to deal with deadlines.



Resorts out here are still non-committal.  At least the local resorts are (Brighton, Alta, Snowbird).  No passes posted yet.  I think there is legitimate concern that the season may not happen or would be shortened.


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## machski (May 12, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Resorts out here are still non-committal.  At least the local resorts are (Brighton, Alta, Snowbird).  No passes posted yet.  I think there is legitimate concern that the season may not happen or would be shortened.


That's very interesting on Brighton especially.  The East 3 Boyne resorts and Big Sky are all ending their pass sales on June 15th this year (may not offer them again later either).  Brighton just says the savings dealine is July 6th this year but no pricing yet.  Very interesting, wonder if the Cottonwood resorts are concerned access up the canyons will be limited this winter due to the virus.

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## BenedictGomez (May 12, 2020)

machski said:


> wonder if the Cottonwood resorts are concerned access up the canyons will be limited this winter due to the virus.



I doubt it.  Utah is one of the states that really isn't experiencing a coronavirus problem.  They're already at recovered > active cases & only experiencing 2 or 3 deaths per day.


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## drjeff (May 14, 2020)

Got my families credit from Epic yesterday.  Just over $500 between my wife's and my adult Epic Locals and our kids Epic Teen local's, which will cover the cost of about 90% of one of my kids passes for next season. Given that per Epic's numbers, cumulatively we had our passes scanned over 100 days last year (and I know the actual number was closer to around 120 days given my records), absolutely no complaints from me about how Epic is handling this


----------



## thetrailboss (May 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I doubt it.  Utah is one of the states that really isn't experiencing a coronavirus problem.  They're already at recovered > active cases & only experiencing 2 or 3 deaths per day.



Well, being in Utah, our cases are still on the rise.  The rise is not as high as it was, but it is still going up.  As to the pandemic and skiing, Snowbird announced that they will not reopen this ski season because the demand is simply too high for them to reopen safely.  Basically, every IKON passholder would show up as would every Snowbird Passholder.  A lot of Snowbird Passholders are pissed about this and their just-announced pass program that I detail below.  

Not surprising, Snowbird followed POWDR's model of offering a "Passholder Promise" that they will offer a full-refund if a pass is not used by December 1st.  They also offered a "credit" to passholders that only applies to a renewal of the SAME pass or a higher-valued pass.  Generally, folks are getting $300 credit if their adult pass was used 5 days or less or $150 credit if they used their adult pass more than 5 days.  Junior passes are $100/$50 credit along the same lines.  

And, as I predicted, pass prices went UP across the board.  As I had said, I imagine that skier days were high but revenue was flat or down.  So, naturally, they increased pass prices instead of restricting IKON.  Not much of an increase, but still an increase.  It was such that the "credits" washed out most of the increase.  Kind of weak.  My Alta/Bird pass went up $200 in cost, but like Jackson Hole and Aspen they are dangling a peace offering to us in the form of a free IKON Base Pass.  Regular adult passes went up $50.  

Overall reception is mixed.  Many are pretty upset because they were expecting a refund.  I don't think that was reasonable to expect personally.  I think the credit was a good idea in concept, but they require folks to renew at the same pass level.  It would have been better to offer a credit for ANY product at the mountain because a lot of folks are not going to jump up and buy passes with all that is going on.


----------



## Dickc (May 14, 2020)

Given I am still having back problems, I will wait until at least the fall before I make any decision.  I may just grab a few online tickets at easier places to test out how skiing goes versus buy into a pass and find out after one ski trip that it hurts too much to go again.

They are looking at the SI join it now, and I had dual cortisone Shots in it yesterday.  Another week or so and I get to see how I feel.  Then the discussion with the docs can turn to what to do next.  Insurance used to pay for a procedure that numbed the nerves for 18-36 months, but they no longer cover it.  The only thing they cover now is fusing.  I already have the fusions in the lower back.  Having another will add additional stress to the lumbar 4-5.  2-3 is fused, 3-4 is fused, and 5-S1 was discovered to have “self” fused.

I hate my back!  Where is Star Treks “Bones” with his tricorder!!!!!!


----------



## p_levert (May 15, 2020)

Quite a teaser from Ski Cooper: https://www.skicooper.com/season-passes/

Maybe they match Powderhorn's $299 early bird offer?  Has Magic and/or Bolton ruled out having Ski Cooper as a partner resort?  Just wondering...


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## VTKilarney (May 15, 2020)

Bromont is allowing you to get a full refund if you cancel by December 4th.


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## BenedictGomez (May 15, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> *as I predicted, pass prices went UP across the board*. I imagine that skier days were high but revenue was flat or down.  So, naturally, they increased pass prices instead of restricting IKON.  *Not much of an increase, but still an increase.  It was such that the "credits" washed out most of the increase.  Kind of weak. *



Whenever Gillette puts out a new razor, they do the counter-intuitive & actually INCREASE the price of the old razor blades simultaneous to the increased cost of the new & better razor.  So classic is this model it is now known as the "razor & razor blade" model in business, regardless of the product.  It's classically taught as a case study in pretty much every business school.

 In a way, this is the ski version of that.  

I need to "give" you something?  Hmmmm....well,  I'll increase the base of that something.


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## thetrailboss (May 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whenever Gillette puts out a new razor, they do the counter-intuitive & actually INCREASE the price of the old razor blades simultaneous to the increased cost of the new & better razor.  So classic is this model it is now known as the "razor & razor blade" model in business, regardless of the product.  It's classically taught as a case study in pretty much every business school.
> 
> In a way, this is the ski version of that.
> 
> I need to "give" you something?  Hmmmm....well,  I'll increase the base of that something.



Well, if I do renew and there is a ski season, I selfishly hope that the angry masses do not return so that there is more room :lol:


----------



## mbedle (May 17, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Whenever Gillette puts out a new razor, they do the counter-intuitive & actually INCREASE the price of the old razor blades simultaneous to the increased cost of the new & better razor.  So classic is this model it is now known as the "razor & razor blade" model in business, regardless of the product.  It's classically taught as a case study in pretty much every business school.
> 
> In a way, this is the ski version of that.
> 
> I need to "give" you something?  Hmmmm....well,  I'll increase the base of that something.



Isn't the razor and blade model when a product like an inkjet printer is sold cheap and the ink is where they make the money or in its namesake the cost of the razor is really cheap but the price for the blades are really expensive? Not sure I agree that the model is if I have to give a consumer something for free, I'll go ahead and raise the price of the product to compensate for it. However, I guess you could say the the price of the ski passes are really cheap because a lot of people will buy the overpriced food and beverage.


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## Zermatt (May 17, 2020)

Only a week to make my renewal decision and I'm still not sold on next season.  I'm guessing I'm not alone and resorts should be getting nervous.


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## Edd (May 17, 2020)

billo said:


> Only a week to make my renewal decision and I'm still not sold on next season.  I'm guessing I'm not alone and resorts should be getting nervous.



Only a week? What are you buying? I’m under the impression the normal deadlines have been extended by months.


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## boston_e (May 17, 2020)

Edd said:


> Only a week? What are you buying? I’m under the impression the normal deadlines have been extended by months.



Ikon goes up in price near the end of May and I think any renewal discounts go away too at that point (not 100% sure about that)


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## Bosco DaSkia (May 17, 2020)

deal.


https://silvertonmountain.com/shop/2021-spring-unguided-season-passes/






























fact.


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## Edd (May 18, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Ikon goes up in price near the end of May and I think any renewal discounts go away too at that point (not 100% sure about that)



That does surprise me. I’m going Epic so I wasn’t paying attention to Ikon. Epic raises in September I believe. 


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## p_levert (May 18, 2020)

The Ikon pass deadline is Wed May 27.  I will be buying.  I am also thinking about the Indy Pass or some other cheapo pass with a bunch of partner resorts (like maybe a Ski Cooper pass).


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## JimG. (May 18, 2020)

Edd said:


> That does surprise me. I’m going Epic so I wasn’t paying attention to Ikon. Epic raises in September I believe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



September is correct.

Actually considering the Epic local pass.


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## p_levert (May 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> September is correct.
> 
> Actually considering the Epic local pass.



The NE value pass is, well, a great value.  Especially if you're a senior ($449).  But the NY options are pretty limited, just Hunter.


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## Cobbold (May 18, 2020)

*Epic pass*



JimG. said:


> September is correct.
> 
> Actually considering the Epic local pass.



I am considering the local epic pass with the Indy pass, live in wmass, moderna has good results on their vaccine trials, phase 1, going to phase two, maybe we will have a normal year,  may go to a full epic with no Indy if moderna does develop the vaccine.


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## Killingtime (May 18, 2020)

p_levert said:


> The Ikon pass deadline is Wed May 27.  I will be buying.  I am also thinking about the Indy Pass or some other cheapo pass with a bunch of partner resorts (like maybe a Ski Cooper pass).



Yeah, I'm probably doing the same combo. Had the Indy Pass last year and it worked out really well. Picked it up mainly for Bolton and Magic. Everything else was just a bonus.


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## boston_e (May 20, 2020)

I think we have decided that if Vermont lifts it's 14 day quarantine restriction for any coming in from out of state (or if Killington comes up with a contingency plan for that) we will do the Killington 365 passes for the family.  If not, we are just going to do Pico passes.... lowest cost and risk for if the season gets disrupted in some way.


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## Bosco DaSkia (May 20, 2020)

https://www.indyskipass.com

THE  REVOLUTION GROWS!
Seven great new indies join 45 from last season giving you
52 uncrowded and authentic winter playgrounds for just $199.

Cannon Mountain, NH
China Peak, CA
Crystal Mountain, MI
Granite Peak, WI
Lutsen Mountains, MN
Sasquatch Mountain, BC
Tamarack Resort, ID


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## dblskifanatic (May 22, 2020)

Bosco DaSkia said:


> https://www.indyskipass.com
> 
> THE  REVOLUTION GROWS!
> Seven great new indies join 45 from last season giving you
> ...



Seems like a decent deal now in NE.  I see six or so that I would ski.  Bolton, Magic, Cannon are sure bets S6, Pats and Black and Abram are not mountains that I generally would visit but since they are on the pass I would do them.  That becomes a decent price point for $199.




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## dblskifanatic (May 22, 2020)

Edd said:


> That does surprise me. I’m going Epic so I wasn’t paying attention to Ikon. Epic raises in September I believe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ikon dangled a carrot that is like the pumpkin in the Cinderella story.

We are going to renew with our Epic Veteran Pass with 20% credit $447.  No time pressure since we have until Labor Day.

Also going with A Basin Veteran Pass for $179 which includes 3 days at Monarch, three days at Taos and 1 day at Silverton plus 50% of Mountain Collective resorts.  


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## skef (May 24, 2020)

It's been extended, but not by months. On May 20 Ikon sent an email saying, "Ikon Pass Savings Extended. Prices Go Up on June 17."

Nonetheless, I just renewed. I also exercised the 80% credit I had on an unused 4-day Epic Day Pass. I also unpacked the brand new snowshoes I ordered in early March when I had visions of earning some turns...

Looking forward now, not back.


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## Dickc (Jun 4, 2020)

> You Are Receiving the New Zero-Day Credit
> 
> We are - and always will be - grateful for your support, feedback, and patronage. To honor the Ikon Pass community and express gratitude for pass holders, we are excited to offer several additional benefits to help ease the burden on those seeking adventure.
> 
> ...



I could not use my IKON Base Pass pass because of back surgery that came up.  I recovered my money as I also bought the pass insurance.  Now it appears I am getting a free pass.  Not sure its actually ethical to take it, but........


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## Zermatt (Jun 4, 2020)

Dickc said:


> I could not use my IKON Base Pass pass because of back surgery that came up.  I recovered my money as I also bought the pass insurance.  Now it appears I am getting a free pass.  Not sure its actually ethical to take it, but........



It's not just unethical, it is likely insurance fraud.


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## Dickc (Jun 4, 2020)

billo said:


> It's not just unethical, it is likely insurance fraud.



I did not ask for it, and I'm not sure the insurance people know about it.  For now, I'm just going to sit tight and see what happens.  I did NOT send anything to IKON, and as of yet, had not renewed.  Not really sure what is going on.  I repeat, the email was unsolicited.  Do I have a legal requirement to notify the insurance carrier, or would that fall to IKON?


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## Zermatt (Jun 4, 2020)

Dickc said:


> I did not ask for it, and I'm not sure the insurance people know about it.  For now, I'm just going to sit tight and see what happens.  I did NOT send anything to IKON, and as of yet, had not renewed.  Not really sure what is going on.  I repeat, the email was unsolicited.  Do I have a legal requirement to notify the insurance carrier, or would that fall to IKON?



If Ikon refunded you actual cash (credit card refund) you would likely have a legal requirement to return the money to the insurance company.  Ikon is not going to talk to the insurance company though.

But....it is not a cash refund, it is credit for next season which has questionable value between $0 and the full pass price.  Maybe you are never going to use it, in which case the value is $0.

Not sure what your obligations are, if any, and what I would do in your case.


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## cdskier (Jun 4, 2020)

I'm a bit surprised Ikon didn't check with the insurance carrier first to see if anyone that fell in that "unused" category filed an insurance claim to get money back (unless there's some privacy laws/regulations that prevent the insurance carrier from sharing that info with Ikon).

On a related note, I received an e-mail from Ikon today as well. It stated they're expanding the terms of the Ikon Adventure Assurance program. So basically I got the 2nd half of the e-mail that Dick posted.


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## p_levert (Jun 4, 2020)

billo said:


> It's not just unethical, it is likely insurance fraud.



Billo works for an insurance company?

Most people think of insurance companies as bandits, so any opportunity to wring back a few bucks is a good thing.  Personally, I would keep my mouth shut and see if I could get a free pass.  If caught, I would throw up my hands and say "I'm sorry, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong".

Sorry for the amorality...


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## Dickc (Jun 4, 2020)

I purchased the pass insurance through the IKON website, and the carrier is Redsky.  I was required by Redsky to notify IKON that I would be unable to use the pass, and I DID notify IKON of the reason, and that I would be making the insurance claim.  After notifying IKON, all other details were between me and Redsky.  Redsky did keep the insurance premium money, and as such, I got, through them, what I paid for.  This is the payout line from the explanation of benefits:  

Service Start Date End Date            Amount Claimed Other Insurance Amount Ineligible ReasonCode Deductible Amount Approved
Ski Lift Tickets 12/01/2019 05/25/2020 $687.94           $0.00              $38.94                1                $0.00           $649.00  

It explains I paid IKON 687.94 which covered both the 649 for the pass and the 38.94 for the insurance.  The dates of Dec 1, 2019 to May 25 2020 (I Believe) explains the benefit period, and finally the 649 is the insurance payout.  I do not seem to have a copy of the insurance contract from last year (I'm sure its a bit different THIS year).  So I really cannot tell if I would be violating any provisions.  What actually surprises me, is that IKON did not consult with the insurance to see who might have received an insurance refund.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2020)

billo said:


> If Ikon refunded you actual cash (credit card refund) you would likely have a legal requirement to return the money to the insurance company.  Ikon is not going to talk to the insurance company though.
> 
> But....it is not a cash refund, it is credit for next season which has questionable value between $0 and the full pass price.  Maybe you are never going to use it, in which case the value is $0.
> 
> *Not sure what your obligations are, if any, *and what I would do in your case.



I believe it is the same; the future services rendered do have a real cash value as unearned revenue. Alterra will record it as a liability on their balance sheet. 



p_levert said:


> *
> Most people think of insurance companies as bandits*



Not most normal people.


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## Dickc (Jun 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I believe it is the same; the future services rendered do have a real cash value as unearned revenue. Alterra will record it as a liability on their balance sheet.
> 
> 
> 
> Not most normal people.



While MY case has some ethical questions with regard to it, a person that bought an IKON pass to use in late March or April for a planned ski vacation, and never got to use it, will be thrilled with this email as they got zero use from their pass.


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## Dickc (Jun 4, 2020)

https://rsportalcanada.archinsurancesolutions.com/description-of-coverage/DA7B42AE03F72F10CB18846FB87DFF01C319654D9A43BE76ABE274CFAC784A4F.pdf

The above is the CURRENT link to the insurance coverage.  As I read it, I'm in the clear to take the 20-21 pass and use it as the coverage period, as they define it, is over, and I did NOT get to use the pass.

Also, IKON was able to keep my 649.00


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 4, 2020)

Dickc said:


> While MY case has some ethical questions with regard to it, *a person that bought an IKON pass to use in late March or April for a planned ski vacation, and never got to use it, will be thrilled with this email as they got zero use from their pass.*



No doubt, those folks got screwed if there's no recompense.


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## machski (Jun 5, 2020)

Ikon refunded him nothing, RedSky gave him his pass money back.  Ikon kept the pass value originally paid by DickC.  The only way insurance fraud would play here is if in some way DickC used his pass or another pass THIS season after saying he was injured.  If Ikon decides he is eligible for the zero day pass push (he skied zero days) and he did his duty notifying them he would be unable to use his pass this season (he did), there is no insurance fraud on his part.  This is now a business decision by Alterra and I believe DickC is in his rights to accept the 20-21 pass if that is what Alterra does for him.  I would think it will come without an insurance coverage option, which would be right.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Zermatt (Jun 6, 2020)

machski said:


> Ikon refunded him nothing, RedSky gave him his pass money back.  Ikon kept the pass value originally paid by DickC.  The only way insurance fraud would play here is if in some way DickC used his pass or another pass THIS season after saying he was injured.  If Ikon decides he is eligible for the zero day pass push (he skied zero days) and he did his duty notifying them he would be unable to use his pass this season (he did), there is no insurance fraud on his part.  This is now a business decision by Alterra and I believe DickC is in his rights to accept the 20-21 pass if that is what Alterra does for him.  I would think it will come without an insurance coverage option, which would be right.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I agree with this. I would take it.


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## Dickc (Jun 6, 2020)

machski said:


> Ikon refunded him nothing, RedSky gave him his pass money back.  Ikon kept the pass value originally paid by DickC.  The only way insurance fraud would play here is if in some way DickC used his pass or another pass THIS season after saying he was injured.  If Ikon decides he is eligible for the zero day pass push (he skied zero days) and he did his duty notifying them he would be unable to use his pass this season (he did), there is no insurance fraud on his part.  This is now a business decision by Alterra and I believe DickC is in his rights to accept the 20-21 pass if that is what Alterra does for him.  I would think it will come without an insurance coverage option, which would be right.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app





			
				Billo said:
			
		

> I agree with this. I would take it.



I kind of came to the same conclusion after reading the insurance policy, and looking back over the claim I made.  I certainly was not expecting a roll-over from the winter, and was trying to decide if I wanted to pony up for a pass, knowing I could roll it over before December 10.  With the new offer, and the new roll over dates.  I'm a pretty happy camper!


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## skicub (Jun 9, 2020)

Is anyone else considering getting multiple passes, and deciding once things get going, whether to use or not? I’ve got a renewal discount for IKON, but am also considering a renewal discounted Boyne NE pass (from 2018) because I may do a seasonal rental at Sunday River. I figure if I decide not to do one, I can just roll it over. What say ye? 


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## ss20 (Jun 9, 2020)

skicub said:


> Is anyone else considering getting multiple passes, and deciding once things get going, whether to use or not? I’ve got a renewal discount for IKON, but am also considering a renewal discounted Boyne NE pass (from 2018) because I may do a seasonal rental at Sunday River. I figure if I decide not to do one, I can just roll it over. What say ye?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



I'm going from a Killington pass to an Ikon but I already had ideas of doing that.


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## sugarbushskier (Jun 9, 2020)

Last year I had both the Ikon Base and Epic Local. This year thinking just Epic Midweek Northeast Pass w 20% renewal discount and a ski club rebate as icing on the cake plus an Indy Pass.  Can always fill in some days w discounted online tix if necessary. 

I really don't think I'm flying west next year so staying local should be satisfying enough as long as I'm not limited to lotteries and crazy systems as to how and when I can ski.


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## JimG. (Jun 9, 2020)

Looking like I'll be getting a NYS 3 in 1 only this coming season. 

I'm sure local VT skiers will be thrilled this flatlander likely won't be a K skier this winter. Just won't spend big bucks on a K 365 pass with the somewhat misleading guarantee I won't get charged if they are closed. It is clearly more likely VT will close because of another shutdown but K will stay open which gets me nothing but a bag to hold. Having to spend 14 days quarantined before I can ski a day is a non starter here.

Pretty disappointing but I don't spend money on stupid.


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## boston_e (Jun 10, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Looking like I'll be getting a NYS 3 in 1 only this coming season.
> 
> I'm sure local VT skiers will be thrilled this flatlander likely won't be a K skier this winter. Just won't spend big bucks on a K 365 pass with the somewhat misleading guarantee I won't get charged if they are closed. It is clearly more likely VT will close because of another shutdown but K will stay open which gets me nothing but a bag to hold. Having to spend 14 days quarantined before I can ski a day is a non starter here.
> 
> Pretty disappointing but I don't spend money on stupid.



We are thinking similar.  Had fully planned on the 365 passes but won’t be doing it without some quarantine relief added to the pass holders promise.  Pretty disappointed here too.


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## machski (Jun 10, 2020)

I guess you could say we already have multiple passes by default since we went New England Platinum (includes Ikon Base).  Figure what the heck, with the returning passholder discount now, cheaper than my NE Gold/Ikon Base last year.  Not sure we are going west but will use the Ikon to ski around NE.  May add an Indy for me too given the low cost and added areas in NE to hit up.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## JimG. (Jun 10, 2020)

boston_e said:


> We are thinking similar.  Had fully planned on the 365 passes but won’t be doing it without some quarantine relief added to the pass holders promise.  Pretty disappointed here too.



I wonder how many others like us are out there?


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## boston_e (Jun 10, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I wonder how many others like us are out there?



I would think there has to be a good number of us in the same boat.... although some will just ignore the quarantine requirement saying it isn't enforceable, some may purchase as soon as the quarantine is lifted not worrying about if it returns if there is a fall spike in cases.

I'd have to imagine it has affected pass sales by a decent amount though.

I think at this point, we are leaning on just doing Pico passes for the family this winter.  We ski Pico a fair amount anyway and it is the lowest risk to cost option available.


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## snoseek (Jun 10, 2020)

I'm waiting it out more. Was on the fence between ikon and epic. May go with a smaller local mountain of things aren't looking good. Maybe cannon again.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 11, 2020)

I can tell you that I am hearing A LOT of ads now for IKON and EPIC.  I think that, for multiple reasons, their pass sales are pretty dismal.

I feel badly for the smaller places.  I don't think that the Pandemic is going to subside anytime soon.


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## drjeff (Jun 11, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I can tell you that I am hearing A LOT of ads now for IKON and EPIC.  I think that, for multiple reasons, their pass sales are pretty dismal.
> 
> I feel badly for the smaller places.  I don't think that the Pandemic is going to subside anytime soon.



I could see the small(er) resorts looking at this 2 ways..... 

The glass is half empty: everyone is going to buy the a mega pass since if there are limited ticket sales, that gives them more options to get to a resort to ski on the days they want, even if it's not their 1st choice

The glass is half full: More people may choose not to buy a mega pass out of fear of being blocked out of where they want to ski when they want to, and may look to buy a pass at a small(er) area where there may very well be less demand and greater likelihood to get out on the hill when they want this coming season

Consistent view: COVID-19 is a major pain the the ass to the ski industry!!


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## JimG. (Jun 11, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Consistent view: COVID-19 is a major pain the the ass to the ski industry!!



I fear it is going to make skiing less fun. And that for sure will lead me to ski less. Hoping that's not the case.

Still mulling what to do. I tend to think your scenario #2 will play out as true and smaller local areas will benefit. Which will make skiing those areas equally a PITA. Everyone is strategizing and you can be sure your "secret key to skiing success in 20-21" is being pored over by anyone else who skis too. A while back I posted elsewhere about buying an RV instead of a second home for skiing and what a great idea I thought I had. Lost interest in that idea when I read an article about the explosion of interest in RV's. The article was titled "Covid campers".

Just reading that made me want to puke.


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## Dickc (Jun 11, 2020)

What ever happens, I am retired, so I can go just mid week if I want.  If COVID does restrict daily number allowed, I've got a much better chance to ski weekdays while others work.


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## JimG. (Jun 11, 2020)

Dickc said:


> What ever happens, I am retired, so I can go just mid week if I want.  If COVID does restrict daily number allowed, I've got a much better chance to ski weekdays while others work.



I'm retired too and mostly ski midweek. 

I'm just as concerned that midweek skiing will get crowded too; some areas are already suggesting skiers look to ski midweek instead of weekends.


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## snoseek (Jun 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I'm retired too and mostly ski midweek.
> 
> I'm just as concerned that midweek skiing will get crowded too; some areas are already suggesting skiers look to ski midweek instead of weekends.



Yep hospitality so midweeker for life. I live for midweek sleeper days. I'm worried these will become harder to score.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 11, 2020)

JimG. said:


> *I read an article about the explosion of interest in RV's. *The article was titled "Covid campers".
> 
> Just reading that made me want to puke.


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## machski (Jun 12, 2020)

I would tend to think in New England right now, the Epic passes have a leg up on Ikon due to the fact that Epic has multiple unlimited areas in both VT AND NH.  Ikon only has unlimited areas in VT which has been and continues to be one of the most restrictive states for non residents in the country.  Guess we'll see how the passes fare.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Jun 12, 2020)

machski said:


> I would tend to think in New England right now, the Epic passes have a leg up on Ikon due to the fact that Epic has multiple unlimited areas in both VT AND NH.  Ikon only has unlimited areas in VT which has been and continues to be one of the most restrictive states for non residents in the country.  Guess we'll see how the passes fare.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I would also think that given the potential uncertainty and the distinct possibility of limited number of people on the hill on any given day, that the sheer larger number of resorts that are part of the EPIC pass in the East, when compared to the IKON pass could be a deciding factor for those on the fence about one pass or the other.  

I'm not looking at this as say a Sugarbush is better than Okemo type perspective, but more along the lines of "I want to ski this coming weekend, and Stowe, Okemo, Mount Snow and Sunapee are already 'sold out' but I can still get a reservation at Crotched" kind of perspective." 

For the consumer looking to maximize the number of days that they use their pass, the EPIC may end up having a distinct advantage if it is a limited customers per day situation for this coming season.


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## machski (Jun 12, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I would also think that given the potential uncertainty and the distinct possibility of limited number of people on the hill on any given day, that the sheer larger number of resorts that are part of the EPIC pass in the East, when compared to the IKON pass could be a deciding factor for those on the fence about one pass or the other.
> 
> I'm not looking at this as say a Sugarbush is better than Okemo type perspective, but more along the lines of "I want to ski this coming weekend, and Stowe, Okemo, Mount Snow and Sunapee are already 'sold out' but I can still get a reservation at Crotched" kind of perspective."
> 
> For the consumer looking to maximize the number of days that they use their pass, the EPIC may end up having a distinct advantage if it is a limited customers per day situation for this coming season.


Agreed, multiple fronts give more insulation to be able to ski on the Epic vs Ikon this coming season.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Smellytele (Jun 12, 2020)

Well think I made my decision. Indie pass and then get a 21/22 pass early to ski it in the spring or go with a spring only pass.
Hopefully Liftopia can reorg so I can supplement with tix from them.

Oh and will skin when I can, throw in some XC days

Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## chuckstah (Jun 12, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Well think I made my decision. Indie pass and then get a 21/22 pass early to ski it in the spring or go with a spring only pass.
> Hopefully Liftopia can reorg so I can supplement with tix from them.
> 
> Oh and will skin when I can, throw in some XC days
> ...


That's what I'm doing. Throw in a handful of Cannon resident Wednesday's, or Magic throwback Thursday's or the like.  See how it goes and pick something up in the spring if skiing is tolerable. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## snoseek (Jun 12, 2020)

Got an email from vail today with a ten percent of code. Its been a couple years since I've had that pass. That tells me they're probably looking to drum up some pass sales. Coupled with the generous vet discount its hard to pass.


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## Zermatt (Jun 13, 2020)

With more and more Karens in this world everyday don't you think 20/21 season numbers will be down naturally from fear alone? Possibly enough to eliminate overcrowding. Karen and her family just dominate places like Stratton. Karen isn't loading the Suburban every Friday to venture out into Covid country.  She still uses rubber gloves to pump the gas and leaves her packages outside for a week before opening them.

I hope you all know there are no quarantine police in Vermont.  I drove back from VT on Monday evening and it was surreal. Felt like early Christmas morning.  I did not once need to pass a car on VT state highways. I think I passed maybe 10 cars on a 50 mile stretch of I-91.

FFS...as I am typing this looking out my window Karen just ran by my house with her two daughters all wearing face masks at 547am! Do I live in the crowded streets of NYC?  No, a suburban ghost town in CT where there is plenty of room to never need a face mask outside! Let alone running at 547am.


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## ss20 (Jun 13, 2020)

billo said:


> With more and more Karens in this world everyday don't you think 20/21 season numbers will be down naturally from fear alone? Possibly enough to eliminate overcrowding. Karen and her family just dominate places like Stratton. Karen isn't loading the Suburban every Friday to venture out into Covid country.  She still uses rubber gloves to pump the gas and leaves her packages outside for a week before opening them.
> 
> I hope you all know there are no quarantine police in Vermont.  I drove back from VT on Monday evening and it was surreal. Felt like early Christmas morning.  I did not once need to pass a car on VT state highways. I think I passed maybe 10 cars on a 50 mile stretch of I-91.
> 
> FFS...as I am typing this looking out my window Karen just ran by my house with her two daughters all wearing face masks at 547am! Do I live in the crowded streets of NYC?  No, a suburban ghost town in CT where there is plenty of room to never need a face mask outside! Let alone running at 547am.



I think for every irrational person who will not be skiing next year, there'll be one rational person who does more skiing or tries skiing for the first time realizing it's one of the safest sports you can possibly play.  

The mask wearing OUTSIDE in public is hilarious to me (no crowded sidewalks where I am).  People wearing masks in their own cars is a terrifying exemplification of human stupidity and fear-mongering.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 13, 2020)

To complicate this further,  the masses don't start skiing until around Christmas,  and right around Christmas is probably when a COVID19 vaccine will be available.  So if that happens the fearful people being discussed would no longer be fearful post vaccination.


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## dblskifanatic (Jun 13, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I think for every irrational person who will not be skiing next year, there'll be one rational person who does more skiing or tries skiing for the first time realizing it's one of the safest sports you can possibly play.
> 
> The mask wearing OUTSIDE in public is hilarious to me (no crowded sidewalks where I am).  People wearing masks in their own cars is a terrifying exemplification of human stupidity and fear-mongering.



Still not getting the face mask while driving or face masks when walking by ones self in open spaces!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## boston_e (Jun 13, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I think for every irrational person who will not be skiing next year, there'll be one rational person who does more skiing or tries skiing for the first time realizing it's one of the safest sports you can possibly play.
> 
> The mask wearing OUTSIDE in public is hilarious to me (no crowded sidewalks where I am).  People wearing masks in their own cars is a terrifying exemplification of human stupidity and fear-mongering.





dblskifanatic said:


> Still not getting the face mask while driving or face masks when walking by ones self in open spaces!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yeah, where we are is suburbs and it is easy to go for a jog / walk / bike ride etc and easily keep well over 6' from others.

When I go I'll have a light buff neck gaiter on and if I am going to pass by someone, I'll pull it up for the few seconds that it takes to pass by.

As to the cars, it does seem odd, but I always assumed they just forget to pull it down / or helps them remember to not forget it if they do stop to go into a store... but yeah driving solo in a car should be zero risk.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 13, 2020)

Stopped for gas in Waterbury, VT on Wednesday.  All 3 other people at the pumps had their masks up.  So, at minimum they were 20 feet from another person.  In a place with hardly any cases.  Oh well. To each their own

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## chuckstah (Jun 13, 2020)

I was at a small private beach on Cape Cod today. Maybe 150 yards long, no parking lot, locals only. I counted 10  people on the beach, all spread out at least 40 feet between groups. One woman wore a mask the entire time, even in the water. Crazy people exist. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Dickc (Jun 13, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I think for every irrational person who will not be skiing next year, there'll be one rational person who does more skiing or tries skiing for the first time realizing it's one of the safest sports you can possibly play.
> 
> The mask wearing OUTSIDE in public is hilarious to me (no crowded sidewalks where I am).  People wearing masks in their own cars is a terrifying exemplification of human stupidity and fear-mongering.



https://abcnews.go.com/US/driver-crash-passed-wearing-n95-mask-long-police/story?id=70346532


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## boston_e (Jun 15, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Stopped for gas in Waterbury, VT on Wednesday.  All 3 other people at the pumps had their masks up.  So, at minimum they were 20 feet from another person.  In a place with hardly any cases.  Oh well. To each their own
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app





chuckstah said:


> I was at a small private beach on Cape Cod today. Maybe 150 yards long, no parking lot, locals only. I counted 10  people on the beach, all spread out at least 40 feet between groups. One woman wore a mask the entire time, even in the water. Crazy people exist.
> 
> Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app



These specific cases certainly seem to be situations where masks would not be necessary for sure.  With that said, the idea of cloth masks is not that they protect the wearer so much but protect others from the wearer if he or she is infected.... so I'd say we shouldn't be judging people who may be primarily taking the potential safety of others into account with their decision to wear a face cover.

As to next season, I'm guessing the biggest possible impact to ski season would not be that the resorts have to close so much as services like group lessons, child care, base lodges etc could be affected in some way.... as well as the potential for states to keep up with (or re-implement) a 14 day quarantine requirement.

I'm guessing it could be a "boot up in the car, skip lunch and apres ski at home" type of season.


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## puckoach (Jun 15, 2020)

boston_e said:


> ... as well as the potential for states to keep up with (or re-implement) a 14 day quarantine requirement.



A fall resurgence, will probably trigger the Maine Governor.


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## boston_e (Jun 15, 2020)

puckoach said:


> A fall resurgence, will probably trigger the Maine Governor.



Vermont as well I'd guess.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> To complicate this further,  the masses don't start skiing until around Christmas,  and right around Christmas is probably when a COVID19 vaccine will be available.  So if that happens the fearful people being discussed would no longer be fearful post vaccination.



I think that is being very optimistic as to timing.  

I seriously think that the way things are going that we are going to not have a ski season in the traditional sense out here.  We have barely opened up out here in Utah and our numbers are skyrocketing.  This is not a second wave but the first.  There is no leadership on the issue and as it is things will continue to spin out of control.  

That said, after taking into account the "loyalty" discounts we got, it looks like my daughter and I are renewing our Alta/Bird Passes.  We get IKON base passes with them this season, so we get to now be part of the problem.  Yeaaaahhh.  

Snowbird ski camp is toast even without the Pandemic.  My daughter ended up in a lesser ability group than when she started.  Go figure.  Unlike the last few years, they did not even bother to ask us our opinion as to the program at year's end.  You've heard the reasons why it is in the toilet from me--good economy, shit pay starting two seasons ago that drove their talent away, and unmotivated staff.  For her, she may do camp at Alta. Assuming that life is normal. 

My wife is going to renew her IKON pass.  She skied all of three days on it last year.  Alterra loves her.

We may also get some five-packs for Ski Discovery in Montana since we have close friends up there and a place to crash.  Very cool place.


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## p_levert (Jun 15, 2020)

I just renewed my Ikon base pass.  As I learned, you don't get to pick your resort for Covid-19 protection until September, which is weird.  I had been assuming I would pick Sugarbush, but after looking at thetrailboss's post just above, maybe I'll pick something in Utah instead.  It's all about finding the resorts most likely to experience a shutdown.  The "all resorts" option is for suckers.

I also expect to buy an Indy pass, but I have time to make a final decision.  I like Fish and their ski-day guarantee is fantastic.  Not just Covid-19, but everything life throws in your way.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 15, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I just renewed my Ikon base pass.  As I learned, you don't get to pick your resort for Covid-19 protection until September, which is weird.  I had been assuming I would pick Sugarbush, but after looking at thetrailboss's post just above, maybe I'll pick something in Utah instead.  It's all about finding the resorts most likely to experience a shutdown.  The "all resorts" option is for suckers.
> 
> I also expect to buy an Indy pass, but I have time to make a final decision.  I like Fish and their ski-day guarantee is fantastic.  Not just Covid-19, but everything life throws in your way.



I may not pick Utah though for that reason.  Our numbers are up but the State has not done jack shit.


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## catskillman (Jun 15, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Still not getting the face mask while driving or face masks when walking by ones self in open spaces!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Because they are sick or exposed and do not want the others in the car to get infected ! 

Or, maybe they are not the onle person that uses the car and they do not want their germs left in the car to expose others.......


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## Zermatt (Jun 15, 2020)

catskillman said:


> Because they are sick or exposed and do not want the others in the car to get infected !
> 
> Or, maybe they are not the onle person that uses the car and they do not want their germs left in the car to expose others.......



Wrong, if you're in a car with a sick person with the windows closed you are screwed unless you have full medical PPE. With the windows open likely fine with no mask.

Also wrong about touching "germs." Not really how respiratory viruses spread. Then add in the heat of a closed car in the summer and the virus is dead in minutes.


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## gregnye (Jun 15, 2020)

boston_e said:


> I'm guessing it could be a "boot up in the car, skip lunch and apres ski at home" type of season.



It's always a "boot up in the car, bring lunch" type of season for me. If COVID prompts ski areas to lower their ridiculous food prices, it will be one of the positive things to come out of this.

As for people wearing masks in their car. The reason usually is: some people don't want to touch their face yet until after they've washed their hands at home. 
What I do is, I have my mask off in the car driving to the grocery store. But then when returning home, I hand sanitize before touching my car, but wait until I get home to wash my hands before I remove my mask. It's not a long drive so thats why.


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## gregnye (Jun 15, 2020)

billo said:


> With more and more Karens in this world everyday don't you think 20/21 season numbers will be down naturally from fear alone? Possibly enough to eliminate overcrowding. Karen and her family just dominate places like Stratton. Karen isn't loading the Suburban every Friday to venture out into Covid country.  She still uses rubber gloves to pump the gas and leaves her packages outside for a week before opening them.



You don't understand the Karen Meme. Karen is someone who just thinks about themselves and takes pride in annoying minimum-wage customer service workers. 

Wearing a mask doesn't help you (unless it's an N-95), It helps those around you, so that if you sneeze/cough, the germs don't travel as far. Therefore by definition this isn't a Karen situation, because Karen only thinks about herself.

Therefore a real Karen situation would be something like: demanding to speak to the manager about why the Employees are wearing masks because it intrudes on her peace of mind during her vacation--wont somebody possibly think of the children!

Source: Worked in Retail for 4 years.


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## nhskier1969 (Jun 15, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I just renewed my Ikon base pass.  As I learned, you don't get to pick your resort for Covid-19 protection until September, which is weird.  I had been assuming I would pick Sugarbush, but after looking at thetrailboss's post just above, maybe I'll pick something in Utah instead.  It's all about finding the resorts most likely to experience a shutdown.  The "all resorts" option is for suckers.
> 
> I also expect to buy an Indy pass, but I have time to make a final decision.  I like Fish and their ski-day guarantee is fantastic.  Not just Covid-19, but everything life throws in your way.



I love your idea.  I probably go with something in Washington.  Maybe Crystal, But Sugarbush isn't too far behind.


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## cdskier (Jun 15, 2020)

p_levert said:


> I just renewed my Ikon base pass.  As I learned, you don't get to pick your resort for Covid-19 protection until September, which is weird.  I had been assuming I would pick Sugarbush, but after looking at thetrailboss's post just above, maybe I'll pick something in Utah instead.  It's all about finding the resorts most likely to experience a shutdown.  The "all resorts" option is for suckers.



I disagree with that approach. I'm going to pick the resort where I plan to ski the most (i.e. Sugarbush). I'm not taking a chance that Sugarbush ends up closing but some resort out west that I "thought" might be more likely to experience a shutdown ends up staying open. My goal isn't to "pull one over" on Ikon. My goal is to get credit for my "home" resort if they happen to close and I can't ski there.


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## boston_e (Jun 15, 2020)

billo said:


> Wrong, if you're in a car with a sick person with the windows closed you are screwed unless you have full medical PPE. With the windows open likely fine with no mask.
> 
> Also wrong about touching "germs." Not really how respiratory viruses spread. Then add in the heat of a closed car in the summer and the virus is dead in minutes.



Masks don’t protect the wearer so much as protect others from the wearer.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 15, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> I think *that is being very optimistic as to timing. *



 I actually think my Christmas / New Year's prediction is somewhat conservative depending up on how you look at it, but it was my original claim in that COVID19 thread from a few months back so I'll stick with it.  Early immune response data looks fantastic, and you're going to see an unprecedented hyperspace jump to Phase III followed by a literally unprecedented expedited FDA review period, which will be even shorter than a normal 6 month expedited FDA review.  The number of shots on goal is unprecedented in terms of vaccine candidates currently in development i > 150, the funding is unprecedented, the manufacturing ramp-up is going to be big-time unprecedented, and the only thing I can think to compare this to from a healthcare research perspective is the way massive advancements took place during WWII when everyone on the planet was dedicated to the same goal (war technology). The media are still trying to be as negative as possible & poisoning people's minds as much as they can saying getting a vaccine soon is "unrealistic" (as if they have any ******* clue), but believe me, someone's (likely multiple "someone's") got this.



thetrailboss said:


> Snowbird ski camp is toast even without the Pandemic.  You've heard the reasons why it is in the toilet from me--good economy, shit pay starting two seasons ago that drove their talent away, and *unmotivated staff.*



When I was there summer 2018 for Octoberfest (good time), I never saw a more unhappy staff than that of Snowbird.  There were at least 3 times employees volunteered to us completely unsolicited that it sucks working there.  Now that I think of it is was really bizarre, cant say that's ever happened to me before.  Usually you need to prod someone, _"so what's it like working here"_ to get that kind of info, but people were just bitching about the place out-in-the-open like it was their job (no pun intended).  It was almost like it was planned.  Stuff that should have been open wasnt, restaurants closed WAY early, it really stunk; I dont think I'll ever stay there again.



gregnye said:


> when returning home, *I hand sanitize before touching my car*, but *wait until I get home to wash my hands before I remove my mask.*



There is no longer any reason to do the former, and there was never any reason to do the latter.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 15, 2020)

gregnye said:


> *Wearing a mask doesn't help you *(unless it's an N-95), *It helps those around you*, so that if you sneeze/cough, the germs don't travel as far.





boston_e said:


> *Masks don’t protect the wearer *so much as protect others from the wearer.



Everyone knows this, right?  I mean we hear it so many times on TV virtually every day that even the kid at the local deli can roll it off his lips.   

Well put me down for a big bet that this will be another instance of many thus far related to COVID19 in which the "experts" will be wrong, because for the life of me it makes absolutely no sense from either a practical standpoint, a viral loading standpoint, or a physics standpoint. 

 Fun fact?  There is no definitive study that can be pointed to to 100% verify this _"masks dont protect the wearer" _claim, merely anecdotal evidence & a handful some either relatively low-powered, or not definitively conclusive studies.  When I look at all these Asian nations doing so well with COVID19 despite completely disparate healthcare reactions (Japan clinched it for me), I became a big believer in masks early on.  It's the one cultural thing they do, they ALL wear masks in public, even commonly during flu seasons.   

But yeah, people wearing masks in their car, riding their bikes, or going on hikes in a state park where 48 feet will be the closest they come to another human being is dumb (and annoying, LOL).


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## p_levert (Jun 15, 2020)

Relative to mask wearing when it really doesn't make sense, I think you guys are missing one other explanation.  Personally, I never put my mask on until I go into the store.  And, actually, I frequently forget and then have to run back to the car.  But there are people that just have the attitude that you should put your mask on when you leave the house and take it off when you get home.  If you do this a lot, you get used to the mask and it's not a big deal.

Some might still say that this is stupid, and it more or less is.  OTOH, look at the Asian countries that have mask-wearers all over the place.  On a country-wide scale, these habits do seem to combat the spread of CV19.  Just saying...


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 16, 2020)

We have our first statistically significant study showing a drug with a lifesaving effect on the worst-faring COVID19 patients out today, a 35% and a 20% benefit respectively on patients on vents & supplemental O2.  So there's another significant positive folks.  Better yet it's a cheap generic drug.  It will immediately become standard-of-care in the sickest patients.  Things are looking up.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 16, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Everyone knows this, right?  I mean we hear it so many times on TV virtually every day that even the kid at the local deli can roll it off his lips.
> 
> Well put me down for a big bet that this will be another instance of many thus far related to COVID19 in which the "experts" will be wrong, because for the life of me it makes absolutely no sense from either a practical standpoint, a viral loading standpoint, or a physics standpoint.
> 
> ...



Agree!

And also put me strongly in the category of not believing the "mask don't protect the wearer" mantra.  If that was actually the case, and I knew I was healthy, why would I have had to wear a mask, while working on my patients, in a aerosol environment, for closing in on 30 years now? I wear a mask at work to primarily protect myself from any airborne communicable diseases that my patients may have, and if I happen to have some type of airborne communicable disease, the mask protecting my patients from what I have is a secondary effect

Masks let people both breathe in and breathe out. The filtration effect happens regardless of which way the air flows through the material the mask is made out of. Some type of masks are just much more efficient at particle filtration than others

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449


----------



## boston_e (Jun 16, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Agree!
> 
> And also put me strongly in the category of not believing the "mask don't protect the wearer" mantra.  If that was actually the case, and I knew I was healthy, why would I have had to wear a mask, while working on my patients, in a aerosol environment, for closing in on 30 years now? I wear a mask at work to primarily protect myself from any airborne communicable diseases that my patients may have, and if I happen to have some type of airborne communicable disease, the mask protecting my patients from what I have is a secondary effect
> 
> ...



Talking about cloth masks only here... neck gaiters pulled up etc (not medial or N95 etc).  I'm not sure anyone is saying that these masks provide no protection at all to the wearer, but that current information we are being told is that the primary purpose of a simple cloth face covering is to protect others if you are unknowingly infected.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html

Even the article you link mentioned "Asking everyone to wear cloth masks can help reduce the spread of the coronavirus by people who have COVID-19 but don't realize it."

I think we are on the same side here, so not looking for a debate, just trying to clarify what I meant in my statement earlier.


----------



## drjeff (Jun 16, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Talking about cloth masks only here... neck gaiters pulled up etc (not medial or N95 etc).  I'm not sure anyone is saying that these masks provide no protection at all to the wearer, but that current information we are being told is that the primary purpose of a simple cloth face covering is to protect others if you are unknowingly infected.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/diy-cloth-face-coverings.html
> 
> ...



Got it. And agree that cloth masks, short of maybe stopping some large(r) particles of phlegm during a cough and containing some of the particles during a sneeze, aren't doing very much, (even before you get into how many people appear to be wearing them   ), other than serve as a mental reminder to try and keep some social distancing going while around others.

Personally my hunch is that when the push for everyone to wear masks initially started, the CDC and other advisory groups, didn't fully grasp the actual shortage of "medical grade" PPE available, especially for front line healthcare providers, and realizing that then saying that masks weren't needed (as a way to try and preserve some of the PPE supply) they pivoted to the cloth mask option as the "least worst" option


----------



## mikec142 (Jun 16, 2020)

I'm about to pull the trigger on an Ikon Pass.  Although I doubt it, I figure I'll ask...Are there any promo codes out there for a discount?


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## JimG. (Jun 16, 2020)

I don't like wearing the mask but always do so when inside like when shopping. I've also learned I like wearing a mask when mowing my yard. I don't have to take an allergy pill and unplug my nose from all the allergens and dust that gets kicked up.

Back to season passes, the more I look at the choices and the more I'm seeing that an Epic pass may be my best option. I'm concerned the ORDA hills may have tight snowmaking budgets this coming season and having Hunter as my choice in NY is probably essential. Assuming there is no more lockdown activity I also like the other choices in New England especially having Wildcat on my pass. And the NE value pass is cheap especially with the $75 voucher they gave me from last season.


----------



## Cobbold (Jun 16, 2020)

Vail/epic  gives credits for tickets bought during the season for a season pass, not sure if ikon does but you could call/ email them


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## Cobbold (Jun 16, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I don't like wearing the mask but always do so when inside like when shopping. I've also learned I like wearing a mask when mowing my yard. I don't have to take an allergy pill and unplug my nose from all the allergens and dust that gets kicked up.
> 
> Back to season passes, the more I look at the choices and the more I'm seeing that an Epic pass may be my best option. I'm concerned the ORDA hills may have tight snowmaking budgets this coming season and having Hunter as my choice in NY is probably essential. Assuming there is no more lockdown activity I also like the other choices in New England especially having Wildcat on my pass. And the NE value pass is cheap especially with the $75 voucher they gave me from last season.



Maybe ORDA will join the Indy pass and you have 6 days at the three locations.  I think I am doing the local epic pass with the Indy pass, was thinking before all this virus stuff to do full epic, but unsure how airplane travel will be.  Never thought ORDA would skimp on snow making, so many variables to analyze.  Wonder if this lead to New York State to privatize ORDA, New York State will have revenue issues for years to come, nyc I am worried is about to become the next Detroit economically.


----------



## sugarbushskier (Jun 16, 2020)

I also have an Epic $75 credit being offered due to purchasing a one day lift tix for my son last year when we skied together at Mt Snow. Does anyone know if I can stack that $75 credit with my 20% credit from my Epic Local Pass last year?

I know I'm now getting greedy, but hey, it never hurts to ask. I've spent mucho bucks skiing over the years (no regrets), but if I can save some money on this upcoming, unprecedented season I'm all for it.


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## Cobbold (Jun 16, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> I also have an Epic $75 credit being offered due to purchasing a one day lift tix for my son last year when we skied together at Mt Snow. Does anyone know if I can stack that $75 credit with my 20% credit from my Epic Local Pass last year?
> 
> I know I'm now getting greedy, but hey, it never hurts to ask. I've spent mucho bucks skiing over the years (no regrets), but if I can save some money on this upcoming, unprecedented season I'm all for it.




You should contact them, I have the same issue, but I am under the impression no, one credit only per pass


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## jimmywilson69 (Jun 16, 2020)

that's how I interpret it.  I bought my son tickets via buddy pass while in CO last January and they are basically crediting him $120 towards a new pass.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 16, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> *Wonder if this lead to New York State to privatize ORDA, New York State will have revenue issues for years to come*, nyc I am worried is about to become the next Detroit economically.



Doubt it; government rarely relinquishes any power, even if it's something as silly as running a ski hill.   That said, Whiteface could be the most improved ski resort in the history of east coast skiing if it was in private, moneyed hands.  What a dream that would be.


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## Smellytele (Jun 16, 2020)

sugarbushskier said:


> I also have an Epic $75 credit being offered due to purchasing a one day lift tix for my son last year when we skied together at Mt Snow. Does anyone know if I can stack that $75 credit with my 20% credit from my Epic Local Pass last year?
> 
> I know I'm now getting greedy, but hey, it never hurts to ask. I've spent mucho bucks skiing over the years (no regrets), but if I can save some money on this upcoming, unprecedented season I'm all for it.



I thought in the email my wife got that the discount ~$105 can only be used for a pass for her not anyone else. So you couldn’t use his for you.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## sugarbushskier (Jun 16, 2020)

Thanks everyone for all the feedback.  I do plan to call at some point to see what they will offer, but understand I may not be able to stack. 

BTW the day ticket that I bought I did buy in my name as it was only a single ticket.  I redeemed the tix at the window and he just put it on his jacket so they have no way of knowing it was for someone else.


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## JimG. (Jun 16, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> You should contact them, I have the same issue, but I am under the impression no, one credit only per pass



My impression as well.


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## Zermatt (Jun 17, 2020)

I pulled the trigger last night and bought our Ikon Passes.  I consider it a hedge on normalcy.

Worst case...the money is gone and the pass companies are bankrupt..maybe I get something back from AMEX.  A little better is we don't ski and they are able to honor the unused value for next season.

Best case...everything is perfectly normal and the ski hills are empty because nobody bought passes.


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## Zand (Jun 17, 2020)

I did the same...went with the base plus pass to,get Jackson. Thought about going to the regular but decided not to as Sugarbush going unlimited helps the base pass tremendously. Other than Killington theres no way i could get anywhere else more than 5 times anyway.


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## mikec142 (Jun 17, 2020)

I bought the unlimited.  Didn't want to deal with blackout dates.  Assuming a trip out west, it will more than pay for itself.  If no trip out west, I'd need about 15 days to break even with what I pay by buying quad packs.  But quad packs to Sugarbush only (while fantastic), lock me into skiing there only.

The addition of Sugarbush made it a tough decison, but the addition of Windham for day trips put me over the edge.


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## p_levert (Jun 17, 2020)

billo said:


> I pulled the trigger last night and bought our Ikon Passes.  I consider it a hedge on normalcy.
> 
> Worst case...the money is gone and the pass companies are bankrupt..maybe I get something back from AMEX.  A little better is we don't ski and they are able to honor the unused value for next season.



Props on rejoining the Ikon family.

That's an extreme worst case.  My worst case is that ski areas are closed for most of the season and I ski like 4 days.  Then I get a partial credit toward 21/22.  At the same time, I save a ton of money because I didn't buy airplane tickets, lodging, etc.  I can live with the worst case.

Best case: uncrowded slopes, cheap airplane tickets, cheap airbnb's.  Could be awesome.


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## mikec142 (Jun 17, 2020)

I can see a lot of different scenarios.  The one I don't see is cheap airfare.  Airlines have cut out so many flights that its hard to get direct flights anywhere and planes are packed even with less demand.


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## jaytrem (Jun 17, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I can see a lot of different scenarios.  The one I don't see is cheap airfare.  Airlines have cut out so many flights that its hard to get direct flights anywhere and planes are packed even with less demand.



Yup, they were super dirt cheap when the virus started.  Could have booked a Feb or early March trip but I was looking for last week of March and they were not available yet.  Now prices have all gone up.


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## p_levert (Jun 17, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I can see a lot of different scenarios.  The one I don't see is cheap airfare.  Airlines have cut out so many flights that its hard to get direct flights anywhere and planes are packed even with less demand.



I can speak from experience on this one, as I flew on a plane this past week.  It's certainly correct that plane tickets won't be cheap if they continue flying at 2/3 capacity (empty middle seat).  They were no bargain when I purchased.  But, if the empty middle seat requirement is lifted, then prices could be very reasonable next winter.

FWIW, I give a mixed report card on the overall airport/airline experience.  Yes, all the virus stuff is a big hassle.  But it is actually rather pleasant to have an empty middle seat, empty garage at the airport, etc.  Personally, I am not too worried about my health because I kept my n95 mask in place pretty much the entire time.


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## x10003q (Jun 17, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Maybe ORDA will join the Indy pass and you have 6 days at the three locations.  I think I am doing the local epic pass with the Indy pass, was thinking before all this virus stuff to do full epic, but unsure how airplane travel will be.  Never thought ORDA would skimp on snow making, so many variables to analyze.



ORDA has a long history of skimping on snowmaking.



Cobbold said:


> Wonder if this lead to New York State to privatize ORDA, New York State will have revenue issues for years to come, nyc I am worried is about to become the next Detroit economically.



NY State would have to change its Constitution (at a minimum a 2 year process) to try and have somebody else operate or own the 3 ski areas. The odds of that happening in our lifetime is zero.


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## Cobbold (Jun 17, 2020)

x10003q said:


> ORDA has a long history of skimping on snowmaking.
> 
> 
> 
> NY State would have to change its Constitution (at a minimum a 2 year process) to try and have somebody else operate or own the 3 ski areas. The odds of that happening in our lifetime is zero.



Your right about that, I will be pushing up daisies before orda changes


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## MEtoVTSkier (Jun 17, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Masks don’t protect the wearer so much as protect others from the wearer.



The masks with valves protect no one.


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## JimG. (Jun 17, 2020)

x10003q said:


> ORDA has a long history of skimping on snowmaking.
> 
> 
> 
> NY State would have to change its Constitution (at a minimum a 2 year process) to try and have somebody else operate or own the 3 ski areas. The odds of that happening in our lifetime is zero.



I totally agree.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 17, 2020)

billo said:


> Best case...everything is perfectly normal and the* ski hills are empty because nobody bought passes*.



Deer Valley brass gave an update yesterday & said both pass sales & hotel lodging bookings are strong.


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## 2planks2coasts (Jun 18, 2020)

Pulled the trigger on IKON Base yesterday.  Hate the idea of the big corporate megapasses, but the nurse discount is too good to pass up.  Will buy an IndyPass when they go on sale in September.


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## machski (Jun 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Deer Valley brass gave an update yesterday & said both pass sales & hotel lodging bookings are strong.


I wouldn't stake my opinions on next season from one resort that caters to the 0.1%ers.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## bizarrefaith (Jun 18, 2020)

Didn't see it mentioned in thread but Cannon has announced a similar season pass assurance program:

EARLY PURCHASE PASS ASSURANCE:
Valid through November 26, 2020*
*(Projected Opening: November 27, 2020)

100% Credit Option
Prior to our projected opening day, if you request a credit on your pass purchase, regardless of the reason, we will issue a credit for any reason, for the full amount you paid, to be used towards a 2021 - 2022 season pass.

Refund (fees apply) Option
Prior to our projected opening day, if you request a refund on your pass purchase, we will issue a refund for any reason, minus a $50 processing fee per transaction.

IN-SEASON PASS ASSURANCE
Dates Valid: November 27, 2020 - April 11, 2021*
*(projected closing)

ADDED ASSURANCE FOR COVID Health Crisis
Each quarter of the season takes 25% off of the pro-rated credit, but with added assurance that if the season is interrupted or ended due to a public health crisis, a pro-rated credit (with no fees) will be applied toward a future season pass purchase.

Effective November 27, 2020, our normal credit/refund policy applies:
Per our normal refund credit/refund policy, Cannon Mountain will consider credits or refunds for illness or injury or life-altering events that prevent you from skiing, with medical documentation - on a case by case basis. A pro-rated refund may be requested for illness or injury, but is subject to final approval and a $50 processing fee per transaction. As we enter each quarter of the season, a 25% reduction applies toward the pro-rated credit or refund.


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## JimG. (Jun 18, 2020)

Forgot about the Killington midweek pass. With my $150 voucher from last season that would cost me about $425.

So the end result is shaping up to be an Epic pass (either local or NE value depending on how cheap I want to be, leaning towards the local) and the K midweek. 

I may still end up eating money somewhere but I've cut my pass expense down from over $2000 to only around $1000 for the coming season and I'm happy to let that ride.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Deer Valley brass gave an update yesterday & said both pass sales & hotel lodging bookings are strong.



With the previous ownership, I would have taken this at face value.  But with this regime I will believe it when I see it.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 18, 2020)

As for us, wife is renewing her IKON.  

My daughter and I are renewing Alta/Bird.  We get IKON Base passes included this year.  Not a bad deal, but I am now part of the "problem."


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## ScottySkis (Jun 18, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I can see a lot of different scenarios.  The one I don't see is cheap airfare.  Airlines have cut out so many flights that its hard to get direct flights anywhere and planes are packed even with less demand.


The airline previously provided flights to Las Vegas through Orlando, but will now start nonstop service to Las Vegas, starting at $79 round trip after March 21.


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## BenedictGomez (Jun 18, 2020)

machski said:


> I wouldn't stake my opinions on next season from one resort that caters to the 0.1%ers.



Assuming it's truthful to begin with (as TB notes), I would view it positively regardless of income.  Skiers in general tend to be well-educated.


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## boston_e (Jun 25, 2020)

T minus 20 days until the Killington 365 pass goes off the market and other Killington products go up in price.

Keeping an eye on it, but without something in their pass holders promise about possible future quarantines we are thinking we are going to "pass" on the 365 pass.  Bummer as we had really been psyched about it.

As of now we are still thinking simply doing Pico passes which is the lowest cost / risk option if things regress next winter.  We can add on a few K tickets or a spring pass to supplment if needed and the price difference between the 365 for the family and Pico passes for the family leaves a lot of extra money we can use "A-La-Carte" if needed.


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## cdskier (Jun 25, 2020)

boston_e said:


> T minus 20 days until the Killington 365 pass goes off the market and other Killington products go up in price.
> 
> Keeping an eye on it, but without something in their pass holders promise about possible future quarantines we are thinking we are going to "pass" on the 365 pass.  Bummer as we had really been psyched about it.



I saw K announced that they added COVID interruption protection to their passes including the Beast 365 pass. Although it only seems to apply if K itself is forced to close. Doesn't really address the issue if K is technically open but you aren't allowed to travel to VT or something like that. Then again, I'm not so sure if anybody has truly addressed that specific point. Most of the major ski resorts are so dependent on out of state visitors that I can't really see it being viable to be open if those people weren't allowed into VT without quarantining.


----------



## Smellytele (Jun 25, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I saw K announced that they added COVID interruption protection to their passes including the Beast 365 pass. Although it only seems to apply if K itself is forced to close. Doesn't really address the issue if K is technically open but you aren't allowed to travel to VT or something like that. Then again, I'm not so sure if anybody has truly addressed that specific point. Most of the major ski resorts are so dependent on out of state visitors that I can't really see it being viable to be open if those people weren't allowed into VT without quarantining.



Well a lot of things are opening in some states to just their residents. It is the first step to test their procedures then I guess if they pass all the checkpoints then they will open to others. They could do that with ski areas also. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## JimG. (Jun 25, 2020)

boston_e said:


> T minus 20 days until the Killington 365 pass goes off the market and other Killington products go up in price.
> 
> Keeping an eye on it, but without something in their pass holders promise about possible future quarantines we are thinking we are going to "pass" on the 365 pass.  Bummer as we had really been psyched about it.
> 
> As of now we are still thinking simply doing Pico passes which is the lowest cost / risk option if things regress next winter.  We can add on a few K tickets or a spring pass to supplment if needed and the price difference between the 365 for the family and Pico passes for the family leaves a lot of extra money we can use "A-La-Carte" if needed.



I'm set on getting a K midweek pass. Pretty cheap for me with the voucher I got from last season. I was going to go for the 365 but it's not a wise investment this season especially for a NYer.

Still debating over an epic pass of some sort or now considering a Plattekill season pass. It really fits the K midweek pass well.


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## machski (Jun 26, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Well a lot of things are opening in some states to just their residents. It is the first step to test their procedures then I guess if they pass all the checkpoints then they will open to others. They could do that with ski areas also.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


And yet a lot of states (NJ/NY/CT) are putting in new quarantine restrictions from the new batch of heavy case states.  And in NY/NJ, they plan to enforce those quarantines with fines/jail for breaking them (CT is an honesty policy to start anyway).  So what you stated is not a guarantee of anything come later this year Smelly.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## ScottySkis (Jul 15, 2020)

Latest information on orda season pass considering
What happened not skiing this season

'More ORDA:

100% SKI3 ASSURANCE

Purchase your season pass with confidence!  We are looking forward to a great season at our mountains, but if there are any unexpected situations where you need flexibility, simply request your SKI3 Assurance.  You can exchange your 2020-2021 season pass for a 100% purchase credit for any reason through December 1, 2020.

Information about the SKI3 Assurance Credit:

You'll receive a 100% purchase credit for your 2020-2021 season pass on a Snow Guarantee Card
It is valid from date of issue through Closing Day, Spring 2022
Can be used to purchase season passes, lift tickets, lessons, and rentals
Can be used online or in person at Gore, Whiteface, or Belleayre


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## JimG. (Jul 15, 2020)

Got my Killington midweek pass yesterday. $450 all said and done.

ORDA finally woke up and threw skiers a bone with the voucher promise for 21-22 if you decide to opt out before 12/10. I'm guessing that means sales are way off.


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## boston_e (Jul 16, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Got my Killington midweek pass yesterday. $450 all said and done.



We did Killington passes as well for the family yesterday.  The "no questions asked" refund before Nov 20th helped move me into the "buy" column.  If Corona is spiking again in November and there are still quarantine restrictions etc in place, I'll evaluate before that deadline.


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## bizarrefaith (Jul 16, 2020)

Contrary to expectations, haven't seen _any_ increase in seasonal rental inventory in New Hampshire. We're proceeding cautiously -- booking a rental but insisting on a COVID clause. Given the current trajectory, I feel like mountains will _probably_ be open in some fashion but pretty skeptical the kids programs are going to run and/or that we'll be able to travel from out of state every weekend.


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## Jcb890 (Jul 22, 2020)

Given the changes (or lack thereof) when it comes to COVID, EPIC's 'pass protection' is a complete joke. They are expecting people to pay full price for a pass that you are almost assuredly not going to be able to use for unlimited access/tickets. They are also *NOT* using the same guidelines as IKON where you can carry over your pass to '21/'22 season for *ANY* reason.

IMO, anything less than this is a complete cop out and BS pass protection. EPIC is essentially telling it's customers that they are not willing to offer any protection outside of resorts shutting down again and at least a part of the season being lost, like last year.

How is that all they are offering? We still have no idea how they (or any other resorts) plan to handle day-to-day operations. Anyone who skis/rides regularly in New England knows damn well that none of the resorts around here can operate normally on weekends.

Even if people want to argue the mountain's capacity and that it 'rarely' is 50% or more based on some numbers. If that's the case, then these numbers are screwed up because these places are seemingly way over 50% on most weekends. Or, if that is 'truly' 50%, then I never want to see what 75% or 90% looks like. What do you do at that point? Walk around on the mountain holding your skis or board so you don't run into one another? Every single weekend during the 'regular' ski season every place is packed with long lift lines. Are they going to be running 6' spacing in the lift line and have people lined up into the parking lots? Can you imagine the line for the Bluebird on a typical Saturday/Sunday at Mt. Snow? 6' spacing and you've got people lined up across the entire base of the mountain essentially.

And yet EPIC wants me to shell out my money for a pass? Crazy.

At least for those of us with credits from last year, I believe 9/1 or 9/7 is the date the credit must be used. It might give us a bit more insight into plans for the upcoming season. However, that will probably still be too early for real plans to be laid out or for pass holders to have an actual idea of the product they'll be receiving.


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## thebigo (Jul 22, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> Given the changes (or lack thereof) when it comes to COVID, EPIC's 'pass protection' is a complete joke. They are expecting people to pay full price for a pass that you are almost assuredly not going to be able to use for unlimited access/tickets. They are also *NOT* using the same guidelines as IKON where you can carry over your pass to '21/'22 season for *ANY* reason.
> 
> IMO, anything less than this is a complete cop out and BS pass protection. EPIC is essentially telling it's customers that they are not willing to offer any protection outside of resorts shutting down again and at least a part of the season being lost, like last year.
> 
> ...



If I was primarily a weekend skier living in Southern New England I would not buy a pass. As a midweek skier living in NH, I cannot imagine a scenario where I fail to get reasonable value out of an Epic northeast pass. With the notable exception of the bar, I doubt I am within 6' of anyone 99% of the time midweek. My primary concern is that school goes to half days and I have to be home to get the kids off the bus everyday at noon. Guess the result of half day school would be significantly more afternoons at the crotch and minimal first chairs a the cat.

Anyone know when the epic price goes up or the credits expire?


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 22, 2020)

I was hoping  Liftopia would survive but this doesn't look good ,who would want to do business with them . 
https://skiing.substack.com/p/liftopia-has-not-paid-magic-plattekill


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## JimG. (Jul 22, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Anyone know when the epic price goes up or the credits expire?



9/7.

Also ORDA extended best price deadline to 9/2.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 23, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I was hoping  Liftopia would survive but this doesn't look good ,who would want to do business with them .



My spidey-senses are telling me this story has great potential for spectacular plot turns & bombshells.


----------



## ScottySkis (Jul 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> My spidey-senses are telling me this story has great potential for spectacular plot turns & bombshells.



I hope not


----------



## Not Sure (Jul 23, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> My spidey-senses are telling me this story has great potential for spectacular plot turns & bombshells.



50 Shades of Jay :-D

I Just don't see how it takes millions of dollars to run a website


----------



## Killingtime (Jul 23, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> 50 Shades of Jay :-D
> 
> I Just don't see how it takes millions of dollars to run a website



I used to do accounting work for an online marketing company. Their biggest monthly cost was driving traffic through search engines and social media and not the actual cost of running the website. I would bet Liftopia spends a fair amount with Google, Yahoo, etc. I hope it's not a Jay Peak situation as others have suggested and the money got siphoned off to pay for elaborate lifestyles. I've seen a lot of that too unfortunately. Private Jet shares, exotic cars, condos, boats. All the while the vendors and creditors get hosed. Either way this will be entertaining. I have my popcorn ready.


----------



## machski (Jul 24, 2020)

Well, no Boston Ski show this year.  Already nixed, will have some type of online expo to be detailed at a later date.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## thebigo (Jul 27, 2020)

Just bought our Epic Passes, called their customer service when I could not find an <5 pass. Waited the standard 20 minutes to be informed they do not offer a kids pass. I was told to visit the ticket desk upon arrival, some mountains would give a free day pass, some would give a free ticket valid only at that mountain for the year. How does it make any sense to force families to stand in a ticket line during the middle for a pandemic? She made a big deal out of the tickets being free, I would have gladly paid the $60 Peak charged for a pass just to avoid the line.


----------



## machski (Jul 27, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Just bought our Epic Passes, called their customer service when I could not find an <5 pass. Waited the standard 20 minutes to be informed they do not offer a kids pass. I was told to visit the ticket desk upon arrival, some mountains would give a free day pass, some would give a free ticket valid only at that mountain for the year. How does it make any sense to force families to stand in a ticket line during the middle for a pandemic? She made a big deal out of the tickets being free, I would have gladly paid the $60 Peak charged for a pass just to avoid the line.


The other problem one could run into with this type of policy this winter is the rest of the family can ski on the season pass that day but your grommet gets shut out due to ticket sales being capped.  Lovely.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## mbedle (Jul 28, 2020)

Interesting since the site says: Yes, kids 4 and under receive free lift access with the 4 and Under Epic Pass. The 4 and Under Epic Pass is available starting Labor Day Weekend prior to the ski season. To be eligible for this pass, the child must be 4 years old or under at time of purchase. If the child turns 5 after Labor Day through the ski season, they are still eligible for this pass. To receive this pass, you must redeem at any Vail Resorts owned-and-operated ticket window. The child must be accompanied by an adult on-mountain at all times.

*Please contact the Season Pass Call Center at (970) 754-0005 or email comments@vailresorts.com to have a 4 and Under Epic Pass shipped to you. To receive same-day lift access, please visit a ticket window.*


----------



## thebigo (Jul 28, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Interesting since the site says: Yes, kids 4 and under receive free lift access with the 4 and Under Epic Pass. The 4 and Under Epic Pass is available starting Labor Day Weekend prior to the ski season. To be eligible for this pass, the child must be 4 years old or under at time of purchase. If the child turns 5 after Labor Day through the ski season, they are still eligible for this pass. To receive this pass, you must redeem at any Vail Resorts owned-and-operated ticket window. The child must be accompanied by an adult on-mountain at all times.
> 
> *Please contact the Season Pass Call Center at (970) 754-0005 or email comments@vailresorts.com to have a 4 and Under Epic Pass shipped to you. To receive same-day lift access, please visit a ticket window.*



Interesting that is a different number, I will give it a call.


----------



## thebigo (Jul 29, 2020)

I called the number in mbedle's post and surprisingly got through to a woman named Sandy in only 14 minutes. Sandy should be Vail's employee of the month, the only pleasant and helpful person I have ever gotten on the phone at Vail. She said to stop by one of the mountains with a picture and they will print a complimentary pass for kids under five years old. Further she said they would print the pass in the summer but to call ahead, the former Peak mountains are still getting set up to print passes, sunapee should be able to print now. I only asked about NH but suspect the same is true in VT.


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2020)

Done.  

Wife renewed her IKON pass (evil).  

I renewed my Brighton Night Pass, which they now call the "Twilight Pass" giving me access 7 days a week from 2 until close for all lifts.  That is significant.  Brighton gave me FULL face value for the Go Cards I could not use last season and a discount to renew.  I was able to do it over a single phone call which made life easy.  Pretty much a no-brainer to renew at the pitifully low rate.  

Also waited until the last minute to renew our Alta-Bird Passes that include free IKON base passes (more evil).  Online renewal today was easier than expected with discounts that pretty much washed out any price increases.  

The common theme this year:  increased prices cloaked with giving us "improvements" we did not ask for.  Lots of Snowbird folks were not happy about that.  Some folks, mainly family packages, saw huge price increases and added "perks" that nobody wanted.  Snowbird got a lot of flak over that.  As predicted, John Cummings doesn't get it.


----------



## jaytrem (Jul 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Done.
> 
> Wife renewed her IKON pass (evil).
> 
> ...



Have you decided if your daughter is going in any programs, or will she just be skiing with you guys?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jul 31, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Have you decided if your daughter is going in any programs, or will she just be skiing with you guys?



Likely Alta camps.  We're not doing Snowbird's program.  She ended the year in a lower group than when she started.


----------



## machski (Jul 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Done.
> 
> Wife renewed her IKON pass (evil).
> 
> ...


This isn't just a theme in ski resorts.  My YouTube TV went up $15/month (~30% increase) and got channels added like MTV that I could care less about.  It's a thing in businesses right now.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## JimG. (Jul 31, 2020)

machski said:


> This isn't just a theme in ski resorts.  My YouTube TV went up $15/month (~30% increase) and got channels added like MTV that I could care less about.  It's a thing in businesses right now.



I was just pondering these uncared for and unwanted "improvements" that businesses relish adding to product so they can pump up prices. Had to leave my car for service until Monday and got a loaner car. Brand new Subaru Legacy. I have a 2011 I love and plan to drive until it dies. 6 speed. Fun and simple. The new Legacy looks like a Toyota Camry. 
There are no knobs on the dash anymore, just a complicated touch screen. Too much to glance at quickly to determine what it does, requires study. Easy to touch the wrong function. When the car comes to a full stop it turns off. So if the AC is on that turns off too. Dumb. Lane departure warnings, automatic lane correction very unpleasant and dangerous IMO. Those are the things I decided I don't want in a car based on a 15 minute drive. Sure I'll find more by Monday.

I may wind up driving my 2011 until I die.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Jul 31, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Likely Alta camps.  We're not doing Snowbird's program.  She ended the year in a lower group than when she started.



If they run it as well as their summer ops I wouldnt be surprised.  When I was there summer 2018 it was probably the worst run resort I've ever been too.  Complete chaos.  I can 100% say I've never seen employee dissatisfaction like I saw there.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 1, 2020)

machski said:


> This isn't just a theme in ski resorts.  My YouTube TV went up $15/month (~30% increase) and got channels added like MTV that I could care less about.  It's a thing in businesses right now.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Check out fubo, you save $5/month and gain history, weather, newsmax. DVR is limited to 500 hours but does not expire after 9 months.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 1, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Check out fubo, you save $5/month and gain history, weather, newsmax. DVR is limited to 500 hours but does not expire after 9 months.



Does it give you local channels for news and also local sport stations?


----------



## xlr8r (Aug 1, 2020)

So today i attempted to purchase a 20/21 Epic Northeast Value Pass and use my 19/20 Epic Local Pass credit for a discount.  So it turns out if you want to use a 19/20 credit on a lower priced pass product for 20/21 than the pass you bought in 19/20, you have to fill out an exemption form and wait for an email or phone call from Vail Resorts to process.  Has anyone done this?  I filled out the exemption form but it said response will take 5-6 weeks.  I will try calling them this week as 5 weeks from now puts us past the Labor day deadline.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 1, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Does it give you local channels for news and also local sport stations?



NESN and the celtics channel are included, also nbc CBS and fox boston. No local pbs, wmur is being added before the end of the year. They have necn for semilocal news. Also has Smithsonian.


----------



## thebigo (Aug 1, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> So today i attempted to purchase a 20/21 Epic Northeast Value Pass and use my 19/20 Epic Local Pass credit for a discount.  So it turns out if you want to use a 19/20 credit on a lower priced pass product for 20/21 than the pass you bought in 19/20, you have to fill out an exemption form and wait for an email or phone call from Vail Resorts to process.  Has anyone done this?  I filled out the exemption form but it said response will take 5-6 weeks.  I will try calling them this week as 5 weeks from now puts us past the Labor day deadline.



We had the unlimited peak passes last year, i think they were $629, bought northeast this year at $600. My discount code worked first time, wife's did not. Called and got some dude named Darrell or maybe darren, he had me log off then log back in and it worked. 

$475 unlimited at four places in NH is a hell of a deal, hope to get it under $5/day.


----------



## xlr8r (Aug 1, 2020)

thebigo said:


> We had the unlimited peak passes last year, i think they were $629, bought northeast this year at $600. My discount code worked first time, wife's did not. Called and got some dude named Darrell or maybe darren, he had me log off then log back in and it worked.
> 
> $475 unlimited at four places in NH is a hell of a deal, hope to get it under $5/day.



Looks like calling works then, I am trying to get my pass down to roughly $475 as well.  I figure as a Middlesex county MA resident, VT maybe a no go this season based on their county restrictions, so most of the season will probably take place in NH.  Might pickup the Indy Pass as well.


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## thetrailboss (Aug 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> If they run it as well as their summer ops I wouldnt be surprised.  When I was there summer 2018 it was probably the worst run resort I've ever been too.  Complete chaos.  I can 100% say I've never seen employee dissatisfaction like I saw there.



As I've said before in here, that is ultimately what has happened.  Cummings is doing a good job buying "nice shiny" toys for his resorts, but they can't get and keep good quality employees.  Snowbird had an issue with recruiting and retaining talent before him.  Camp was a nice program but it has slipped the last two years.  Almost all the instructors, for kids 7-13 or so, were mostly old retired grumpy white men with a few burned out young folks who can't get work elsewhere.  So how does that work with kids?  It doesn't.  Our regular instructor was not an option.  She was awesome.  

The only thing with Alta has been the increasing sense of entitlement from the clientele.  My goal is to focus on skiing and tune that shit out.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I was just pondering these uncared for and unwanted "improvements" that businesses relish adding to product so they can pump up prices. Had to leave my car for service until Monday and got a loaner car. Brand new Subaru Legacy. I have a 2011 I love and plan to drive until it dies. 6 speed. Fun and simple. The new Legacy looks like a Toyota Camry.
> There are no knobs on the dash anymore, just a complicated touch screen. Too much to glance at quickly to determine what it does, requires study. Easy to touch the wrong function. When the car comes to a full stop it turns off. So if the AC is on that turns off too. Dumb. Lane departure warnings, automatic lane correction very unpleasant and dangerous IMO. Those are the things I decided I don't want in a car based on a 15 minute drive. Sure I'll find more by Monday.
> 
> I may wind up driving my 2011 until I die.



As to my passes, here is what happened.  Brighton Night Pass was previously $249 or so early season and got one skiing every night they were open--basically Mid-December through early-April, six nights a week from 4-9pm.  Great deal.  Night ticket rates were about $45-50 per night so it added up fast (not taking into account regular promos).  Brighton moved it to a season pass good everyday of the season from 2pm to close.  So now one can ski more of the season and ski more of the resort since one now gets two hours each day.  In terms of value, it is a good value if one doesn't mind skiing terrain that may be skied off.  Surprisingly, the night terrain holds up very well in my experience.  But none of us asked for it.  The price went up to $349.  Still a good value, but it was clear that Brighton just was in a place where they needed to boost revenue.  I get it.  That said, I did not pay $349 thanks for having some unused Go Cards and getting a decent renewal discount.  

Snowbird did exactly what I said they would.  As I had said in here, from what I saw and was hearing from insiders and seeing anecdotally, IKON has resulted in more traffic but less revenue.  These daytrippers weren't buying food, lessons, or anything else.  Just using their "days".  The second season a lot of passholders did not renew and went IKON or elsewhere.  So more lost revenue.  Basically, more skiers and riders and flat or declining revenue.  Instead of looking at IKON, John did what I said he would--increase pass rates.  That has led to more pissed folks (posting on FB and other places) and slower sales (they just extended the sale "due to IT issues" they claim).  Even with the "loyalty credit" everyone ended up paying a bit more.  Folks with family programs or multiple passes really got screwed with the increases.  They created a new "pass" that includes all access pass, an IKON pass, and a free adventure (cat skiing or guided trip).  Nobody asked for it.  On my pass they upped it about $200 and gave us IKON passes as well.  Nice because we now have common passes again but again I saw it as paying $200 to get an IKON pass.  I didn't need it or necessarily want it, but Snowbird had to justify price increases in a bad economic period.

Interesting how both these IKON partner resorts, who have had a lot of problems, both had to increase rates instead of looking at IKON as the issue.  I guess they are all gung ho for these pass programs despite the issues.


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## JimG. (Aug 2, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting how both these IKON partner resorts, who have had a lot of problems, both had to increase rates instead of looking at IKON as the issue.  I guess they are all gung ho for these pass programs despite the issues.



Everyone is stuck with these megapass deals essentially. This model may fall apart faster and destroy the skiing industry far faster than anyone imagined.

Wait to see prices after this season when nobody is going to fly.


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## jimk (Aug 2, 2020)

Got a pass for my resort of choice.  Hoping to ski a lot of weekdays.  Will brown bag my lunch as always.  It's good to be retired as long as the federal government doesn't implode and stop sending my pension checks.:roll:


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## thetrailboss (Aug 3, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Everyone is stuck with these megapass deals essentially. This model may fall apart faster and destroy the skiing industry far faster than anyone imagined.
> 
> Wait to see prices after this season when nobody is going to fly.



Assuming that we have a ski season.....

I can't believe that Alterra was able to talk these resorts into joining them in IKON.  What I heard they made a pretty hard sell.  Honestly, it is pretty insidious how IKON is actually undermining these partner resorts revenue.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 3, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Assuming that we have a ski season.....




We'll have some kind of ski season, it's just going to be different and be a major ****show until we get herd immunity or an effective vaccine.  Hopefully the resorts can keep their losses to a minimum and come through it allright....


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## dlague (Aug 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Everyone is stuck with these megapass deals essentially. This model may fall apart faster and destroy the skiing industry far faster than anyone imagined.
> 
> Wait to see prices after this season when nobody is going to fly.



I think that the mega passes are offering options that are local and as a result still provide a awesome deal.  Epic in NE and several options of you do not want to fly, Colorado is the same as well as Tahoe.  Ikon provides similar options.  I do not see the mega passes going away anytime soon.  Sales may be down a little this year but once we bounce back from this it will return to sales levels that are close to what they are now.


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## boston_e (Aug 4, 2020)

dlague said:


> I think that the mega passes are offering options that are local and as a result still provide a awesome deal.  Epic in NE and several options of you do not want to fly, Colorado is the same as well as Tahoe.  Ikon provides similar options.  I do not see the mega passes going away anytime soon.  Sales may be down a little this year but once we bounce back from this it will return to sales levels that are close to what they are now.



Agree there are plenty of options in the Northeast that can make the passes worthwhile.... they become not much different from a resort specific pass that we are historically used to at a price reasonable to expect to get enough days to cover the cost.

The wild card in New England will be what happens with state to state travel restrictions.  If Maine and Vermont have their 14 day quarantine requirements in place this winter, it could be hard on the resorts as it could alienate a big chunk of their clientele who come up on the weekends from Mass, CT and NY.

If those travel restrictions are still in place in November, expect a lot of people to take the passes up on their credit / refund offerings.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 6, 2020)

While we have 20% off our veteran epic pass we are thinking of not getting it!  Already have A Basin Pass and thinking about getting a Ski Cooper pass for $249 and gives 3 days at other resorts like Loveland and Monarch and a few others.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Pez (Aug 8, 2020)

"If those travel restrictions are still in place in November, expect a lot of people to take the passes up on their credit / refund offerings. "

I've been sort of following this thread.  Have you guys figured out if this is going to be a thing.  As in the resort may be running but if i can't get to VT from MA without a 14 day quarantine does that count in getting a refund?  

I started reading some fine print on the Epic website, but didn't get to finish it all.


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## p_levert (Aug 8, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> While we have 20% off our veteran epic pass we are thinking of not getting it!  Already have A Basin Pass and thinking about getting a Ski Cooper pass for $249 and gives 3 days at other resorts like Loveland and Monarch and a few others.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



It's August, so the Ski Cooper pass is now $349.


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## dblskifanatic (Aug 10, 2020)

p_levert said:


> It's August, so the Ski Cooper pass is now $349.



Yup found that out this weekend!  May just stick to A Basin and use Gems Cards.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## deadheadskier (Aug 10, 2020)

xlr8r said:


> So today i attempted to purchase a 20/21 Epic Northeast Value Pass and use my 19/20 Epic Local Pass credit for a discount.  So it turns out if you want to use a 19/20 credit on a lower priced pass product for 20/21 than the pass you bought in 19/20, you have to fill out an exemption form and wait for an email or phone call from Vail Resorts to process.  Has anyone done this?  I filled out the exemption form but it said response will take 5-6 weeks.  I will try calling them this week as 5 weeks from now puts us past the Labor day deadline.


I just called them direct today and they applied the same 20% off the Northeast Value I wanted instead of the Epic Local.  

Folks should note, if you have a five or six year old, they offer a $49 Northeast Value pass for that age group.  It's not listed with the other value passes.  I just assumed you had to go with the $379 Epic Local for five year olds.  Not so.  A friend let me know about the $49 pass.  I called back, they switched the pass and refunded me the $330

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## xlr8r (Aug 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I just called them direct today and they applied the same 20% off the Northeast Value I wanted instead of the Epic Local.
> 
> Folks should note, if you have a five or six year old, they offer a $49 Northeast Value pass for that age group.  It's not listed with the other value passes.  I just assumed you had to go with the $379 Epic Local for five year olds.  Not so.  A friend let me know about the $49 pass.  I called back, they switched the pass and refunded me the $330
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



Yup, I called last week and got them to process my pass purchase over the phone as well.  $480 for the Epic Northeast Value Pass, heck even if VT has its travel restrictions is still a good deal just to go to Attitash, Wildcat, Sunapee, and Crotched in NH next year.


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## boston_e (Aug 11, 2020)

Pez said:


> "If those travel restrictions are still in place in November, expect a lot of people to take the passes up on their credit / refund offerings. "
> 
> I've been sort of following this thread.  Have you guys figured out if this is going to be a thing.  As in the resort may be running but if i can't get to VT from MA without a 14 day quarantine does that count in getting a refund?
> 
> I started reading some fine print on the Epic website, but didn't get to finish it all.



Not sure about Epic but Killington / Pico is offering a no questions asked refund before November 20th if you have not yet used your pass.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 11, 2020)

Pez said:


> "If those travel restrictions are still in place in November, expect a lot of people to take the passes up on their credit / refund offerings. "
> 
> I've been sort of following this thread.  Have you guys figured out if this is going to be a thing.  As in the resort may be running but if i can't get to VT from MA without a 14 day quarantine does that count in getting a refund?
> 
> I started reading some fine print on the Epic website, but didn't get to finish it all.



That does not appear to be a covered personal event to receive a refund. 

a. Stay-at Home Order.  You are unable to use your pass during the Core Season because the municipality, county, state, province, or country in which your Permanent Residence is located is subject to a “quarantine,” “stay-at-home,” “shelter-in-place” or other comparable mandatory governmental order lasting thirty (30) or more consecutive days.  Your “Permanent Residence” refers to your fixed, permanent and principal home for legal and tax purposes.

c. Travel Restrictions.  You are unable to use your pass during the Core Season because of a government-imposed prohibition on your entry into the United States that affects all similarly situated travelers.

n. Personal Medical Quarantine.  You are unable to use your pass during the Core Season because you are quarantined for at least thirty (30) or more consecutive days at the direction of a Physician after you purchase your pass.  This provision applies only if you provide verification from the Physician.


----------



## bizarrefaith (Aug 11, 2020)

boston_e said:


> Not sure about Epic but Killington / Pico is offering a no questions asked refund before November 20th if you have not yet used your pass.



Cannon is also no questions asked prior to opening day.

"Prior to our projected opening day, if you request a credit on your pass purchase, regardless of the reason, we will issue a credit for any reason, for the full amount you paid, to be used towards a 2021 - 2022 season pass."


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 11, 2020)

On Gore Facebook page about official canceketation for next season possibly a
We’ve updated our policies to offer you more flexibility and peace of mind in buying your 2020-2021 season pass.  We have added assurances if things change for you before the season, for in-season closures, and for travel restrictions or medical needs.  Our passes are ready to go at the same great prices as last year through September 2, and we are busy installing two new lifts!  Find out all the details here: https://www.goremountain.com/tickets-passes/season-passes/purchase-confidence"
"


----------



## Cobbold (Aug 17, 2020)

https://nyskiblog.com/forum/threads/passes-for-2020-2021.50/page-5


Wonder if this is true, if so the ski industry is changing as we know it.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 17, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> https://nyskiblog.com/forum/threads/passes-for-2020-2021.50/page-5
> 
> 
> Wonder if this is true, if so the ski industry is changing as we know it.




Can't say I'm shocked.  They're bleeding money like pretty much every other business in America , except for Amazon, Grocery Stores, Home Improvement Stores and UPS.


Many places would almost be better off staying closed for the winter until restrictions on capacity and indoor facilities are lifted.  Not to mention with no foreign labor, good luck to them on hiring staff


----------



## bizarrefaith (Aug 17, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Not to mention with no foreign labor, good luck to them on hiring staff



No foreign labor AND they can’t even offer unlimited skiing as a perk of employment if there is a capacity cap.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 17, 2020)

Well shit, it's almost like they might have to pay a living wage and eventually rethink their stupid cheap pass prices....


----------



## ss20 (Aug 17, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> https://nyskiblog.com/forum/threads/passes-for-2020-2021.50/page-5
> 
> 
> Wonder if this is true, if so the ski industry is changing as we know it.





> One of my ski industry finance friends told me that Alterra is near bankruptcy. According to him, they make 80% of their EBITA in March so they were hurt pretty badly by the early closure. Apparently American Express is looking at their exposure to Ikon refunds because an Alterra bankruptcy.
> In other news, a friend who organizes group trips told me that Killington is planning NO indoor services except bathrooms, and NO cash sales at all. He’s thinking he’s out of business.



Both sound like complete bullshit.  Especially Killington doing no "indoor services".  They're renting bikes, have the peak lodge open, and are selling food right now.  I'd imagine someone got in a tizzy because a few weeks ago the GM said something along the lines of "be prepared to boot up at the car and go right to the lift due to limited lodge capacity".  

As for Alterra that claim is just absurd.  And if they were in dire financial shape they could easily take on low-interest debt with the sheer amount of property/assets they own...especially now that every plot of land in rural America has increased in value since people started fleeing the cities 5 months ago to the day.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 17, 2020)

Sunday River thinks it's a great time to sell $.5m-$1m lots...per an email from TODAY...

https://sundayriverliving.com/merri...s://sundayriverliving.com/merrill-hill/​&nck=


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 17, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Both sound like complete bullshit.



Of course it's total BS.   

Best part is the follow-up post about this same "source" predicting that soon there'll be no snow due to Global Warming.  Dude's a nut-job. 



> He thinks Stratton has no viable future, partly because of climate change.
> FWIW he thinks climate change will ruin trout fishing in Colorado too. He’s even more pessimistic than me. He’s teaching his children to ski so that they can tell their children what snow was like.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 18, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Well shit, it's almost like they might have to pay a living wage and eventually rethink their stupid cheap pass prices....



This.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2020)

snoseek said:


> Well shit, it's almost like they might have to pay a living wage and eventually rethink their stupid cheap pass prices....



Yep.  Labor was an issue before the pandemic.  Young folks can find work in their intended career path that pays decent, so why work for peanuts bumping chairs?


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2020)

ss20 said:


> As for Alterra that claim is just absurd.  And if they were in dire financial shape they could easily take on low-interest debt with the sheer amount of property/assets they own...especially now that every plot of land in rural America has increased in value since people started fleeing the cities 5 months ago to the day.



Boy, I'm not so sure.  From what I've seen pass sales for IKON and Epic are not what they were before.  Understandable.  I know some places are saying that sales are "strong", but what does that mean?

Like Vail, Alterra really stretched themselves RIGHT before the shit hit the fan.  That has to hurt now that business is likely down.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 18, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Sunday River thinks it's a great time to sell $.5m-$1m lots...per an email from TODAY...
> 
> https://sundayriverliving.com/merri...s://sundayriverliving.com/merrill-hill/​&nck=



I, too, thought that was odd.  That said, there are A LOT of folks leaving the cities.


----------



## cdskier (Aug 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Like Vail, Alterra really stretched themselves RIGHT before the shit hit the fan.  That has to hurt now that business is likely down.



No doubt it hurts, but considering that Alterra is a private company, do we actually have any idea whether they really stretched themselves or not? The only major expenditure I can think of for Alterra right before COVID would be the Sugarbush acquisition.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep.  Labor was an issue before the pandemic.  Young folks can find work in their intended career path that pays decent, so why work for peanuts bumping chairs?




When you factor that onntop of not being able to ski due to capacity restrictions and having to rent a place to live without a guarantee of full time work ( if things get shut down again), anybody that isnt a local would have to be really crazy to take any of these jobs


----------



## boston_e (Aug 18, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Both sound like complete bullshit.  Especially Killington doing no "indoor services".  They're renting bikes, have the peak lodge open, and are selling food right now.  I'd imagine someone got in a tizzy because a few weeks ago the GM said something along the lines of "be prepared to boot up at the car and go right to the lift due to limited lodge capacity".



Keep in mind though that summer traffic is nowhere near what they see on busy weekends in the winter.  Even on the busiest summer weekends it is unlikely the lodges reach 25% capacity (or whatever Vermont's current restrictions are)


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Yep.  Labor was an issue before the pandemic.  Young folks can find work in their intended career path that pays decent, so why work for peanuts bumping chairs?



All of you are correct, of course, except this frankly falls under the category of, _"Dont hate the player, hate the game"_.  I'd do the same thing if I owned a ski resort.  The real idiot here is the Federal government, which lets literally TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of foreigners in every year & acts as a giant wage deflator depressing hourly employee wages.  There should obviously be a better balance.


----------



## JimG. (Aug 18, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> Boy, I'm not so sure.  From what I've seen pass sales for IKON and Epic are not what they were before.  Understandable.  I know some places are saying that sales are "strong", but what does that mean?
> 
> Like Vail, Alterra really stretched themselves RIGHT before the shit hit the fan.  That has to hurt now that business is likely down.



And frankly who knows how easy it will be to rebuild lost momentum. Make no mistake this is going to be a lean season. Best hope for ski areas is that it snows a lot.

If it's a crappy winter there will be more than a few areas that go out for good.


----------



## icecoast1 (Aug 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> And frankly who knows how easy it will be to rebuild lost momentum. Make no mistake this is going to be a lean season. Best hope for ski areas is that it snows a lot.
> 
> If it's a crappy winter there will be more than a few areas that go out for good.




The best hope for ski areas is a widely available effective vaccine before the end of ski season so they can start operating without capacity restrictions and actually make money again


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> The best hope for ski areas is a widely available effective vaccine before the end of ski season so they can start operating without capacity restrictions and actually make money again



I'm not sure it's going to be that simple, for many reasons.  

For starters, we live in a nation in which only ~40% bother to get the flu vaccine.  Can we assume that a much higher percentage than that will get a COVID19 vaccine, which is what would be necessary?  Again I'm not so sure.   

And even if you could get a high adoption rate (I dont think you can), how long would it take for something like 60% of people to be vaccinated?  A long time I imagine.  And good luck getting people in crappy areas of urban centers to show up & get vaccinated, even if it's free (which it will be).


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## deadheadskier (Aug 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> All of you are correct, of course, except this frankly falls under the category of, _"Dont hate the player, hate the game"_.  I'd do the same thing if I owned a ski resort.  The real idiot here is the Federal government, which lets literally TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of foreigners in every year & acts as a giant wage deflator depressing hourly employee wages.  There should obviously be a better balance.



I hope I'm misreading your point

For a guy who consistently beats his chest as the brightest mind in business on AZ, this literally might be the most ignorant post concerning resort town business reality I've ever read. 

If you think H1B workers are harming local workers and should be reduced, I hope you are massively in favor of increased and more accessible government supported off season wellfare plans because that's the only way to cut out H1B.

Tourism labor markets are totally screwed right now because of the borders being closed to that help.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I hope* I'm misreading your point*



That's a given.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's a given.


I gave you an opportunity to explain your point.  

I read your post as a slam on the H1B program.  

Is that true?

If so explain why you feel that way

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 18, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I gave you an opportunity to explain your point.
> 
> I read your post as a slam on the H1B program.   Is that true?
> 
> If so explain why you feel that way



Well, for starters it's pretty obvious you dont understand the different between an H1B & an H2B visa, which is odd given hospitality & restaurant management is your area of expertise, not mine. 

That said, without writing a treatise at this late hour, it boils down to the fact that the issuance of H2B visas has absolutely EXPLODED over the years, and that had a significant wage deflator effect on the real hourly wage paid (or more precisely "should" be paid) by business if more sensible gating were applied.  

While some level of H2B visas are clearly necessary to fill roles, it was not necessary to completely "blow it out" over the last 20 or 25 years.   This allowed businesses to get away with paying the artificially low wages over the years that others have mentioned in this thread. These big businesses LOVE it.   It also pushed the aforementioned high school & college kids to ignore those roles or simply look elsewhere, which had a knock-on effect to justify the seeking of even MORE visa applicants. 

 Essentially, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the large businesses gain millions from it.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

You are utterly clueless about the realities of seasonal businesses in resort areas BG.  My first job at a ski resort was at Keystone in 1993.  There was a massive amount of foreign workers then and it still wasn't enough.  I continued working seasonal resort jobs from line level to management through 2004 and then again from 2011-2014 when I went back to school for a second degree.  At no point during the entirety of those times whether I was working for large corporations or family owned businesses was the employee roster full.  There was ALWAYS a help wanted sign on the doors.  Those who did work FT did so six days and often 50+ hours a week. Not by choice, but because of need.

While I won't argue your point that foreign workers drive down wages, they're 100% necessary to operate these businesses and quite frankly the programs need to be expanded. There isn't enough local talent to fill the rolls at virtually all resort areas. The HS and College aged people local to those areas aren't nearly enough to fill the need no matter how high of wages you could offer. Even this summer with reduced travel due to Covid, friends still in those businesses are operating reduced hours because of lack of help. 

Seriously this was one of the most uninformed "hot takes" by AZs self proclaimed genius on every subject I have read from you. 

Take a lap

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *You are utterly clueless about the realities of seasonal businesses* in resort areas BG.
> 
> While I won't argue your point that foreign workers drive down wages, they're 100% necessary to operate these businesses and quite frankly the programs need to be expanded. There isn't enough local talent to fill the rolls at virtually all resort areas.
> 
> Seriously *this was one of the most uninformed "hot takes"* by AZs self proclaimed genius on every subject I have read from you.



Thanks, I'll take that under advisement, guy who proved he doesn't understand even the very basics of visas.  

You should send your opinions on how increasing wages wont increase job demand to the Bureau of Labor & Statistics, I'm sure they'll enjoy that read.   

I also never said some level of visas wasn't 100% necessary to fill roles, in fact, I literally said exactly the opposite, yet you completely ignore that in your nasty response in your never-ending quest to argue on the internet.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

Derp you got me! I hastily wrote the wrong Visa. 

Tell you what Mr wannabe Lee Iacocca, why don't you move to a ski resort town and open a restaurant and run it with local HS and College kids and pay the best wages in town. Let us know how it works out for you.

And that's cute accusing anyone else on this forum that they live to argue.  You literally spend everyday on here trying to prove to the world you are the foremost expert on business, economics, government, education, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, culture, real estate, law, media, psychology....the list of things you claim to be the subject authority on is endless.  In your mind you are Buffet, Lincoln, Gates, Einstein, Freud and Murdoch all wrapped in the same person.  It's really awkward, you frequently are called out on it and just dig your heels in further on your self believed superiority with zero self awareness.  It's certainly amusing!  Stay gold bud!

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## p_levert (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Derp you got me! I hastily wrote the wrong Visa.
> 
> Tell you what Mr wannabe Lee Iacocca, why don't you move to a ski resort town and open a restaurant and run it with local HS and College kids and pay the best wages in town. Let us know how it works out for you.
> 
> ...



Well if the point of this response is to say *BG you post too much!!!!*, well I couldn't agree more.  BG, post less!  You and the entire board will be happier.


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## Bumpsis (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Derp you got me! I hastily wrote the wrong Visa.
> 
> Tell you what Mr wannabe Lee Iacocca, why don't you move to a ski resort town and open a restaurant and run it with local HS and College kids and pay the best wages in town. Let us know how it works out for you.
> 
> ...



:grin: Finally, this needed to be said! But in some ways it's great have BG on here. It's entertaining. BG - don't take this personally, but you really don't always need to have the last word. I do admire your tenacity to spend as much time as you do, arguing. Oh, it's OK to be wrong, sometimes.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is so, Is so.





			
				deadheadskier said:
			
		

> No it's not, no it's not





BenedictGomez said:


> Is so, Is so.





			
				deadheadskier said:
			
		

> No it's not, no it's not



Tending to side with BG, as there are many other seasonal jobs that pay well enough for people that like that lifestyle to follow those jobs.  Island bartenders, golf pros, tennis instructors, construction, I remember PBA made a go of Cape/Island flights in the summer and FL/islands in the winter.  Where do VT paving crew workers go in the winter?  It sure isn't bumping chairs, and I bet that work is easier than shoveling 350 degree asphalt.  The low wage foreign visa seasonal workers have depressed wages to the point where no one else is signing up.  Follow the money.  _No one else is signing up._  There is one, and only one reason when that happens on a national industry wide basis.  The wages/perks/benefits package is too low.  It really is just that simple.

And the fact that DHS quotes constant job openings even with H2B visa program in force only shows those jobs are being managed to bubble along at minimal staffing.  Because, again, raise the compensation and you get more applications.


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2020)

If you changed "New technology reduces the price of producing hybrid cars" to "Government visa programs enable pool of low cost laborers to apply for seasonal resort work", you'd have BG's argument encapsulated in this chart. That's not to say it would be feasible to pay ski instructors enough to afford to buy property in Vail, but (edit) international labor certainly reduces maket clearing wages. 

These programs might have made more sense before big companies came in and consolidated segments of the hospitality industry (Vail, etc.), but net-net, they are good for industry and bad for labor.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

Raising wages doesn't make jobs magically appear in locations that have zero work to offer 6-9 months a year.  That is the #1 reason for the reliance on foreign help. The fact that the labor comes cheap isn't the reason these businesses have gone this route.  Talk to any HR department at XYZ Ski area or Beach resort and they will verify this.

The population of domestic workers willing to live a transient lifestyle migrating from ski resorts to beach resorts is very small.  The available year round residents to recruit in most of these locations is also very small.  

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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Raising wages doesn't make jobs magically appear in locations that have zero work to offer 6-9 months a year.  That is the #1 reason for the reliance on foreign help. The fact that the labor comes cheap isn't the reason these businesses have gone this route.  Talk to any HR department at XYZ Ski area or Beach resort and they will verify this.
> 
> *The population of domestic workers willing to live a transient lifestyle migrating from ski resorts to beach resorts is very small*.  The available year round residents to recruit in most of these locations is also very small.



Why is that?  How do you explain paving workers just down the road in Rutland?  What do they do in the winter?  How is it that ski jobs at Yellowstone Club have a wait list, but in Vermont there's ads in newspapers for jobs that don't get filled?  Who plows homeowner driveways in the winter at ski resorts?  How does that pay compare to working for the resort?


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Raising wages doesn't make jobs magically appear in locations that have zero work to offer 6-9 months a year.  That is the #1 reason for the reliance on foreign help. The fact that the labor comes cheap isn't the reason these businesses have gone this route.  Talk to any HR department at XYZ Ski area or Beach resort and they will verify this.
> 
> The population of domestic workers willing to live a transient lifestyle migrating from ski resorts to beach resorts is very small.  The available year round residents to recruit in most of these locations is also very small.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



If resorts had no alternative but to hire domestic workers (and pay in the order of twice + the be average wage they pay now), you'd see more 18-20-somethings interested in doing it. This type of wage hike would be way out of the purview of an HR department.

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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

And a follow on question - 

How did the oil companies find enough workers to work in Alaska where there was ZERO local employment base to draw from?

(I think the answer is obvious)


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

Lol

Yeah let's compare the profits of an oil company vs a ski resort and see how much room exists for substantial enough wage increases to draw more seasonal domestic workers.

Are there 1200 paving workers in Rutland to staff up Killington?

Great comparisons.  Keep em coming

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> If you changed "New technology reduces the price of producing hybrid cars" to "Government visa programs enable pool of low cost laborers to apply for seasonal resort work", you'd have BG's argument encapsulated in this chart. *That's not to say it would be feasible to pay ski instructors enough to afford to buy property in Vail, but (edit) international labor certainly reduces maket clearing wages.
> *



Bingo.




deadheadskier said:


> *Raising wages doesn't make jobs magically appear in locations that have zero work to offer 6-9 months a year. * That is the #1 reason for the reliance on foreign help.



Seriously?  Pick a century;  I'll give you an example of higher wages that dragged bodies to destinations.




eastern powder baby said:


> *If resorts had no alternative but to hire domestic workers (and pay in the order of twice + the be average wage they pay now), you'd see more 18-20-somethings interested in doing it.* This type of wage hike would be way out of the purview of an HR department.



And you dont even have to "theorize" this, simply think back to the way it was before the visa explosion.   The number of foreigners encountered is drastically higher now than it was back then.  It's dramatic.  To claim that hasn't had a downward effect on real wages paid is a staggering display of economic ignorance.


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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Lol
> 
> Yeah let's compare the profits of an oil company vs a ski resort and see how much room exists for substantial enough wage increases to draw more seasonal domestic workers.
> 
> ...



You're being willfully argumentative.  The paving crew is an example, not the sum total of a resorts employment base.  

As far as oil profits vs ski profits, that wasn't the question, the question was how to find enough workers.  The market will adapt to the price point of the product cost, it ALWAYS does.

PS, oil company's profits run at about 8%.  Not that different.  Might even be quite similar, given the vast swings in oil supply and prices, they are on as big or bigger revenue roller coaster than ski areas.  The difference is scale, for some reason you can't see things in proportion.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

Man if only ASC and Intrawest had paid locals $20/hr to run their cash registers, they would have made a killing and still be around today. 



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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Man if only ASC and Intrawest had paid locals $20/hr to run their cash registers, they would have made a killing and still be around today.


If market conditions for labor supported $20/hr for cashiers in New England, then all New England resorts would have that labor cost and all New England resorts would cover that added cost in their pricing.  

At least I think that's the appropriate response to that inaccurate, misleading statement.


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Man if only ASC and Intrawest had paid locals $20/hr to run their cash registers, they would have made a killing and still be around today.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


Why would they do that when they could just use the visa system their industry (broadly speaking) advocated for?

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> You're being willfully argumentative.



That's what I'm suggesting.  I don't even think he believes what he's saying.


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## FBGM (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Lol
> 
> Yeah let's compare the profits of an oil company vs a ski resort and see how much room exists for substantial enough wage increases to draw more seasonal domestic workers.
> 
> ...



I bet there are 1200 crack heads on unemployment that could bump chairs. Free Narcan instead of season pass


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *Why would they do that when they could just use the visa system their industry (broadly speaking) advocated for?*



Yup. And aided by the Chamber of Commerce, which is ever-lobbying for more & more visa entrants for cheaper labor.


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> And you dont even have to "theorize" this, simply think back to the way it was before the visa explosion.   The number of foreigners encountered is drastically higher now than it was back then.  It's dramatic.  To claim that hasn't had a downward effect on real wages paid is a staggering display of economic ignorance.



It's funny you mention this. Im too young to remember the 80s, but I do remember Attitash having turnstiles into ~the late 90s. The foreign labor use really started to pick up after those went away. I doubt the turnstiles were very effective, as it took 20 years since they were removed at Attitash before they made a comeback with RFID. Technology, of course, is the antidote to high labor costs. Eventually it becomes cost effective to find a way to automate naggingly high labor jobs way.

As an aside, my mom actually liked the "smart ticket" system they used to offer at Attitash because you bought "points" that could be used whenever you wanted during the season. Different lifts cost a different number of points, but as a lower intermediate who was petrified of getting run into, it was a good way to get a few runs in from 8-10 before the crowds came out.

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## icecoast1 (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Lol
> 
> Yeah let's compare the profits of an oil company vs a ski resort and see how much room exists for substantial enough wage increases to draw more seasonal domestic workers.
> 
> ...



Vail Resorts made hundreds of millions in profits for the fiscal year 2019, seems like theres plenty of room there to pay competitive wages there, at a minimum to the core people you can't run a resort without


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

I'm not against higher wages at ski resorts.  I think people are

A. Overstating the impact foreign workers have on wages.  Vail might be highly profitable, but the small businesses in resort towns offering similar jobs certainly aren't.  If Stan's ski shop is paying their rental counter worker $12/hr or Joe's deli their sandwich maker $11/hr; what incentive does Vail have to pay much more?  In my experience locals tend to choose the small businesses over the big resorts because they tend to have shorter off seasons.  

B. Covid aside, look at the unemployment rates over the past twenty + years.  It's never been all that bad outside of the 2009 economic crisis.  Service industry workers aren't going to choose destinations where the cash tills ring six months a year at best over secure 12 month income in high density population centers.  Young people have been leaving resort areas for decades. 

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## snoseek (Aug 19, 2020)

My only issues were on the early and late seasons when I had to work the h2b workers as they were contracted to make 40 and the local ski bums got severely cut. That part was not so easy


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

snoseek said:


> My only issues were on the early and late seasons when* I had to work the h2b workers as they were contracted to make 40 *and the* local ski bums got severely cut.* That part was not so easy



But I'm sure all of those ski bums stuck it out, and none of them ever left because of it (yes, sarcasm).


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## machski (Aug 19, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Sunday River thinks it's a great time to sell $.5m-$1m lots...per an email from TODAY...
> 
> https://sundayriverliving.com/merri...s://sundayriverliving.com/merrill-hill/​&nck=


Just part of that development they are trying to move forward with.  Probably not a bad time to open up that offering to that particular clientel.  What I thought was more odd was the rekindled Dream Maker Lodge Condo development.  The original three years ago had mostly 1 and 2 bed units with 1 beds starting in the mid to high $200k's.  Now it's primarily all 2 bed units starting at over half a million with 4 penthouse units of 3 or 4 beds, starting over a million.  That is the one that blew me away, not so much the lots.  The lot cost was a given high on Merrill Hill above the already pricey and sold out Glade Units.  Those lot sales will pay for the lift/trail/snowmaking install up there.

As to the original point of this thread, Season Pass Options, Sunday River also announced yesterday season pass products should go back on sale early September with regular tickets to go on sale later in the fall.

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## EPB (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not against higher wages at ski resorts.  I think people are
> 
> A. Overstating the impact foreign workers have on wages.  Vail might be highly profitable, but the small businesses in resort towns offering similar jobs certainly aren't.  If Stan's ski shop is paying their rental counter worker $12/hr or Joe's deli their sandwich maker $11/hr; what incentive does Vail have to pay much more?  In my experience locals tend to choose the small businesses over the big resorts because they tend to have shorter off seasons.
> 
> ...


Here's how I arrive at the hypothesis that in an average year (call it a 5% unemployment year), you'd need a significant jump in wage rates to fill the gap if access to foreign labor were shut down.
-Most agree that resorts/resort towns do not have the bodies wanted/needed. 
-As you mention, HR departments understand a modest wage increase isn't enough to entice domestic labor to come work for them.

This leaves one last sunroom l solution: raise wages a lot - until you get the labor pool you need.

This year, all bets are off. Demand for labor will be down, but supply is a mystery (likely no foreign labor (?) offset by more available domestic local/quasi local labor available).

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## catskillman (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Raising wages doesn't make jobs magically appear in locations that have zero work to offer 6-9 months a year.  That is the #1 reason for the reliance on foreign help. The fact that the labor comes cheap isn't the reason these businesses have gone this route.  Talk to any HR department at XYZ Ski area or Beach resort and they will verify this.
> 
> The population of domestic workers willing to live a transient lifestyle migrating from ski resorts to beach resorts is very small.  The available year round residents to recruit in most of these locations is also very small.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


so so true.  even small resorts like Hunter and Windham in NY have to have these foreign workers.  The local high schools graduate 20 kids a year, and most go off to college and never return.  
Older residents cannot handle working outside in weather all day, multiple days in a row.
AND seasonal jobs are not eligible for unemployment when the ski season ends.  IF they have medical coverage they have the summer months deducted from their pay during the winter, leaving very very little take home pay.

The foreign work programs are desperatly need unfortunatly.


----------



## catskillman (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Why is that?  How do you explain paving workers just down the road in Rutland?  What do they do in the winter?  How is it that ski jobs at Yellowstone Club have a wait list, but in Vermont there's ads in newspapers for jobs that don't get filled?  Who plows homeowner driveways in the winter at ski resorts?  How does that pay compare to working for the resort?



I know 2 instructores that work at the Yellowstone club.  First - the resort only hires you for a few weeks usually.  These instructors are all top PSIA AASI level and examiners in the organization.  Their clients are mainly very wealthy business men, not celebrities.  Their tips are insane, and the pay from the resort is low.  That is why everyone wants to work there.  Housing provided is taxed as income by the way.


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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Vail Resorts made hundreds of millions in profits for the fiscal year 2019, seems like theres plenty of room there to pay *competitive wages* there, at a minimum to the core people you can't run a resort without


I did some back of the envelope figuring on this, and I agree with you.  It appears they could afford a substantial raise to employees based on the last 3 years earnings.  (Which is not a guarantee for the future, if your pay is based on company earnings that's called being a stockholder)  They also need to plan for downturns, future investment, etc.

However, there is no reason any business should ever pay substantially more than market cost for labor.  Market cost for labor is determined by supply and demand, and with a large supply of cheap foreign labor, wages get depressed.  Wage rates don't get paid on good feelings, they get paid on market forces.  As long as cheap foreign labor floods the market *competitive wages* will remain lower than they would otherwise be.


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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

catskillman said:


> I know 2 instructores that work at the Yellowstone club.  First - the resort only hires you for a few weeks usually.  These instructors are all top PSIA AASI level and examiners in the organization.  Their clients are mainly very wealthy business men, not celebrities.  Their tips are insane, and the pay from the resort is low.  That is why everyone wants to work there.  Housing provided is taxed as income by the way.


Income is income, whether it comes form the resort or the client.  The draw is the income, not who's paying it.  As you illustrate, for a very short number of days the job is able to attract top talent as the pay is so lucrative.


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## catskillman (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Income is income, whether it comes form the resort or the client.  The draw is the income, not who's paying it.


 Agreed.  But that is why instructors want to work at that resort.  It is exclusive, wealthy and access is limited and screened.  You will not get a group lesson of 10 drunk guys from Brooklyn.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

catskillman said:


> Agreed.  But that is why instructors want to work at that resort.  It is exclusive, wealthy and access is limited and screened.  You will not get a group lesson of 10 drunk guys from Brooklyn.


If you pay instructors well, you will have no shortage of talented people to teach drunk guys from Brooklyn.


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## cdskier (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Income is income, whether it comes form the resort or the client.  The draw is the income, not who's paying it.



Actually it is very relevant. You people live in fantasy land if you think the resorts would simply eat the cost of substantially higher wages. They'd be passed on to the consumer via higher tickets and passes. And then you'll all bitch about that. And how many of your average snowsports consumers in the northeast would be willing to pay the difference? People keep saying we need to get more people into the sport and it is too cost-prohibitive as is, yet at the same time we're advocating for higher wages for ski area employees? Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.


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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Actually it is very relevant. You people live in fantasy land if you think the resorts would simply eat the cost of substantially higher wages. They'd be passed on to the consumer via higher tickets and passes. And then you'll all bitch about that. And how many of your average snowsports consumers in the northeast would be willing to pay the difference? People keep saying we need to get more people into the sport and it is too cost-prohibitive as is, yet at the same time we're advocating for higher wages for ski area employees? Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.



I'm on the side of not importing cheap non permanent resident labor to undercut the citizenry.  I'm happy to let that job market reach equilibrium, and make my purchase decisions based on the prices that market produces.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> there is no reason any business should ever pay substantially more than market cost for labor.  Market cost for labor is determined by supply and demand, and with a large supply of cheap foreign labor, wages get depressed.  Wage rates don't get paid on good feelings, they get paid on market forces.  As long as cheap foreign labor floods the market *competitive wages* will remain lower than they would otherwise be.



yes!


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

I feel like I'm in bizarro world.  Two of the staunchest fiscal conservatives I know in internet land somehow think there's this magic wage threshold that will eliminate the need (or significantly reduce) the reliance on foreign workers by ski resorts. These same two I'm certain have argued against raising the minimum wage to a living wage.  

A lifty ain't going to make Alaskan oil rig wages ever.  

What world do you people live in?  Service industry workers are paid utter crap virtually every where in this country. Sure, there are some socially respectful companies that do at least ok by their workers.  Costco and Whole Foods to name a couple.  

How much do you think the local bank teller, retail worker, convenience store clerk, hotel housekeeper etc are paid in the flatlands?  Utter crap is the answer. Do you make the same passionate arguments for those businesses to pay people better?  Never that I've seen.

Yet somehow the ski  resorts can just back up the brinks truck and domestic workers will flock there for wages that only last for 15 weeks in winter and another 15-20 in summer/foliage season? With zero unemployment eligibility during the other 20 or so weeks when us tourists don't show up to spend money?

Pretty certain BG has gone as far as predicting the eventual demise of Vail. Yet adding labor cost is what they should do?

As for the old days pre-H2B when resorts could get by on local talent?  The labor demands were a fraction of what they are today. Smaller or fewer day lodges, fewer hotels, full service restaurants, non-skiing amenities, less snowmaking, grooming, fewer lifts and on and on.  A bigger factor than any of that was a lack of local housing affordability problems like what exists today.  There was no where near the amount of second home owners or real estate investors buying everything up for short term rentals and pushing the natives out of town. Local population demographics in resort areas speak for themselves. Just look at the school district retractions going on in VT, Cape Cod etc. 

I think you both need to come clean and admit your issues with H2B expansion is rooted in Nationalism. It certainly isn't in economic reality. 





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## thebigo (Aug 19, 2020)

snoseek said:


> My only issues were on the early and late seasons when I had to work the h2b workers as they were contracted to make 40 and the local ski bums got severely cut. That part was not so easy



You go epic or cannon?


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> * You people live in fantasy land if you think the resorts would simply eat the cost of substantially higher wages.* They'd be passed on to the consumer via higher tickets and passes. And then you'll all bitch about that. And how many of your average snowsports consumers in the northeast would be willing to pay the difference? People keep saying we need to get more people into the sport and it is too cost-prohibitive as is, yet at the same time we're advocating for higher wages for ski area employees? Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.



Nobody said that.  Yes, of course the tickets would be more if wages increased; so be it.  I'd pay to restore order to the market.

Your above post, however, (and that of some others) ignores something very important to this conversation; inflation.  

The actual real wages paid by ski resorts have dropped over the years due to the massive influx of foreign workers, and real ticket prices have increased during that timeframe (not counting the ludicrous recent "fake" single day EPIC/IKON ticket prices based not on market forces, but on "forcing" people to buy passes) a bit.  The actual real electricity cost has also decreased during that timeframe.

So you have:

#1 cost of ski resorts = labor = Went down
#2 cost of ski resorts = power (I believe? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong) = Went Down
And cost of ski resorts = income tax = Went down

Versus:

Real ticket prices = Depends where you ski, but most probably up.

So it seems to me some juice can be safely squeezed from this lemon & most resorts could surely sustain a decent increase in labor.


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## cdskier (Aug 19, 2020)

icecoast1 said:


> Vail Resorts made hundreds of millions in profits for the fiscal year 2019, seems like theres plenty of room there to pay competitive wages there, at a minimum to the core people you can't run a resort without



Plenty of room? I'm not so sure about that. Net Income in 2019 for Vail was $323M. Seems like a lot...but let's take a look further down whether it really is. And let's factor in the following hypothesis from EPB (which I think is fairly realistic)...



eastern powder baby said:


> Here's how I arrive at the hypothesis that in an average year (call it a 5% unemployment year), you'd need a significant jump in wage rates to fill the gap if access to foreign labor were shut down.
> _-Most agree that resorts/resort towns do not have the bodies wanted/needed._
> -As you mention, _HR departments understand a modest wage increase isn't enough to entice domestic labor to come work for them._
> 
> This leaves one last sunroom l solution: raise wages *a lot* - until you get the labor pool you need.



I don't know what the definition of "a lot" is, but let's run the numbers with several examples. (And to be honest, maybe something is off in my math or my interpretation of Vail's financial statements, etc...so feel free to correct any blatant errors. I'm not going to pretend to be perfect)

Vail has ~32,000 seasonal employees (this might be pre-Peaks acquisition...not sure). If we assume only 40 hours a week for those employees, a mere $1/hr raise would cost Vail $1.28M per week. Let's assume the core ski season where you have all those employees is only 15 weeks (realistically probably a bit more than that, but I'm trying to provide a conservative view). That's $19.2M additional expenses for Vail...from a simple $1/hr increase. And let's face it, $1/hr more is not going to convince anyone to flock to a ski resort for seasonal work.

$1/hr - $19.2M
$5/hr - $96M (honestly still don't think this is enough of an increase for people to temporarily relocate to a ski resort community for maybe 4 or so months of seasonal work. If they were earning minimum wage before, this only brings them up to ~$16/hr).
Maybe "a lot" can be defined as $10/hr more...now you're up to $192M extra (and this is still assuming only 15 weeks of work. Expand that to 20 weeks and you're up to $256M. And if people work more than 40 hours a week then it is even higher).

Oh...and these figures don't include the additional social security taxes etc that Vail would be responsible for. Also not sure if things like Workers Comp insurance at tied to wages at all, but if so that could drive up the costs more.

I'd like to think people still want ski resorts to be able to re-invest money back into the resorts in the form of capital improvements. If you eat up all their net income with wage increases for all their seasonal employees how are they going to do that?


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## snoseek (Aug 19, 2020)

thebigo said:


> You go epic or cannon?


I think I'm gonna do epic and an indy. If the epic is not looking good by december then I'll refund as my cannon pass will stay the same price anyhow. As a midweek skier I'm not too co concerned wildcat will be too crazy and crotchedand sunnapee are close enough for when I'm lazy. If the world doesn't explode by winter I'll probably take a good part of it off anyhow...its.been a long summer


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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I feel like I'm in bizarro world.  Two of the staunchest fiscal conservatives I know in internet land somehow think there's this magic wage threshold that will eliminate the need (or significantly reduce) the reliance on foreign workers by ski resorts. These same two I'm certain have argued against raising the minimum wage to a living wage.
> 
> <Snip for lack of relevance>
> 
> I think you both need to come clean and admit your issues with H2B expansion is rooted in Nationalism. It certainly isn't in economic reality.


I never said living wage.  I never said raise minimum wage.  I said free market competitive wage.  Even put it in bold letters for you.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Plenty of room? I'm not so sure about that. Net Income in 2019 for Vail was $323M. Seems like a lot...but let's take a look further down whether it really is. And let's factor in the following hypothesis from EPB (which I think is fairly realistic)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^

Gets it

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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> I never said living wage.  I never said raise minimum wage.  I said free market competitive wage.  Even put it in bold letters for you.


Scroll up to a prior post of mine. Local small businesses in resort towns also pay their often local talent (most don't have the HR recruitment resources or employee housing available to go foreign) low wages.  What's the delta between what Forerunner ski shop pays their rental department workers and what Mike Solimano pays his H2Bs at KBL doing the same job?  $2 an hour? $3?

Have you taken up your grievances with Mike?  You certainly haven't spoken with your wallet and walked away from Killington. 

You seem quite passionate about this subject, but how much real monetary action are you placing behind such beliefs? 

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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'd like to think people still want ski resorts to be able to re-invest money back into the resorts in the form of capital improvements. If you eat up all their net income with wage increases for all their seasonal employees how are they going to do that?



Because the economy is not static.  Because prices would rise if industry costs rise due to a non-diddled with labor market.

Vail sold 750,000 epic passes at $950 a pop in 18-19, 925,000 total passes.  Let's take your $5/hr increase at a cost of $96 million and apply it to 925,000 passes.  That's $103.75 more per pass.  You're saving 100 bucks by manipulating the labor market and undercutting the citizenry.  (No I don't have a crystal ball and am not sure $5 is the number, that's just an example)

Given the big revenue generators are more than just tickets/passes, it's food & beverage, ski school, and lodging.  Those revenue generators would spread the added labor cost more, so the added pass price would be considerably less than $100.


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## mister moose (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Scroll up to a prior post of mine. Local small businesses in resort towns also pay their often local talent (most don't have the HR recruitment resources or employee housing available to go foreign) low wages.  What's the delta between what Forerunner ski shop pays their rental department workers and what Mike Solimano pays his H2Bs at KBL doing the same job?  $2 an hour? $3?


Saw that the first time.  Dunno.  I bet it ranges quite a bit for a talented boot fitter compared to a rental department or retail sales employee.  Not sure the relevance of any of that.  Maybe I'll ask Brian next time I'm in.



deadheadskier said:


> Have you taken up your grievances with Mike?  You certainly haven't spoken with your wallet and walked away from Killington.


Wut?  That's just plain stupid.   Anywhere else I went would have the same employment practice.  This is a national issue, not something Killington itself can change.  Killington has to compete in the industry against other areas that employ cheaper labor.



deadheadskier said:


> You seem quite passionate about this subject, but how much real monetary action are you placing behind such beliefs?


What are you suggesting?  We're discussing labor policy, I never claimed to be an activist in the matter.


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## EPB (Aug 19, 2020)

cdskier said:


> You people live in fantasy land if you think the resorts would simply eat the cost of substantially higher wages. They'd be passed on to the consumer via higher tickets and passes. And then you'll all bitch about that. And how many of your average snowsports consumers in the northeast would be willing to pay the difference? People keep saying we need to get more people into the sport and it is too cost-prohibitive as is, yet at the same time we're advocating for higher wages for ski area employees? Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too.



This is true. I actually didn't bring this up on purpose because it skews political, but it is essentially a regressive tax whereby we get better vacation options and locals take a bath on their lowish skill seasonal wage rates. I left it as 'prob industry and anti labor' or something to that effect.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> *Pretty certain BG has gone as far as predicting the eventual demise of Vail.* Yet adding labor cost is what they should do?



My view on Vail eventually declining has nothing to do with "labor costs", or any individual operating cost, it has to do with the fact that I've seen this movie before in other industries, and it always ends the same.  They have a MASSIVE debt position. Nothing that Rob Katz is doing hasnt been done before in other industries.  He's combined an aggressive growth strategy (buying everyone under the sun) with what is essentially a subscription service (EPIC pass), and shows huge revenue increases that I will bet my life on are more from immediately accretive bolt-on-acquisitions than they are from true organic growth. 

 So yes, while Vail's EBITDA (Earnings Before I Trick Dumb Auditors) has looked great, I believe there will come a day when the party ends.  I've also said they need to make at least one acquisition per year, because if a year sunsets without an acquisition then you get a true YoY apples-to-apples view of their financials without all the accounting machination ability you have post acquisition.  PEAKS closed September 19, 2019, which means that assuming Vail cant acquire anyone in the next 1.5 months because of COVID19, we'll get that clean accounting view sometime in October.  Maybe I'll be 100% wrong about that part, we'll see, but I think there's a chance you'll see a bad quarter.  

And lastly, the problem with all these aggressive growth companies is that eventually you've plucked all the low-hanging fruit, and subsequent acquisitions become less attractive, or worse, you're pressured into making a few poor purchases.  Alterra adopting the same strategy as Vail so quickly was probably not something they foresaw & made the situation worse & drove up acquisition costs via competition.  Frankly, I'm pretty surprised Vail hasn't issued a secondary offering to raise cash, but be on the lookout, because I bet that's coming.  The stock will drop on that announcement.  And the Big 3 ratings agencies will eventually punish Vail's credit status, which will make the borrowing which is the blood that flows through Vail's veins, significantly harder & more expensive.  Just wait for that.  I'm also pretty surprised the stock's only down 17%, because needless to say, I wouldn't touch it.  

Other than that, Vail's a super company.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 19, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> A bigger factor than any of that was *a lack of local housing affordability problems like what exists today.*  There was no where near the amount of second home owners or real estate investors buying everything up for short term rentals and pushing the natives out of town.



Wow.  You finally gave a sensible, market-based bit of evidence directly applicable to the conversation being discussed that actually helps support your thesis.  Way to go!  Pat yourself on the back, it took a while, but you got there. 



deadheadskier said:


> I think *you both need to come clean and** admit your issues with H2B expansion is rooted in Nationalism. *It certainly isn't in economic reality.



But then here we go with another ridiculously nasty comment that's completely over-the-top & unbecoming.  It doesn't surprise me anymore.


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## thebigo (Aug 19, 2020)

snoseek said:


> I think I'm gonna do epic and an indy. If the epic is not looking good by december then I'll refund as my cannon pass will stay the same price anyhow. As a midweek skier I'm not too co concerned wildcat will be too crazy and crotchedand sunnapee are close enough for when I'm lazy. If the world doesn't explode by winter I'll probably take a good part of it off anyhow...its.been a long summer



Cool - I will be at the cat most every day with my daughter, let us know when you are around


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Saw that the first time.  Dunno.  I bet it ranges quite a bit for a talented boot fitter compared to a rental department or retail sales employee.  Not sure the relevance of any of that.  Maybe I'll ask Brian next time I'm in.
> 
> 
> Wut?  That's just plain stupid.   Anywhere else I went would have the same employment practice.  This is a national issue, not something Killington itself can change.  Killington has to compete in the industry against other areas that employ cheaper labor.
> ...



So you are 100% adamant that H2B workers have a large influence in driving down wages for the citizenry you are heavily promoting to have these resort jobs, yet you don't have a clue how much of an impact it actually is in real world reality?  

Doesn't sound to me like you are making a researched and informed argument. 

Does MRG or Middlebury Snowbowl use H2B workers?  Pretty sure they don't. Both fine ski areas and within easy access of I assume your second home in Killington.

Apparently it's all talk and no walk for you Moose. You ever consider running for office? 

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## ss20 (Aug 19, 2020)

Another couple points to make...

A ski industry job bumping chairs or fitting rentals was much more desirable 10-20 years ago when passes were $1,000+ at the destination mountains.  Circa 2005, if you're making $7.50/hr 15 weekends a year that $1,000 season pass the resort throws in would be literally half your compensation.  Today with mega-passes and cheap passes specifically targeting college kids and 20-somethings doing a job for the season pass makes no sense given in most cases the price of a pass is only $300-$500.  In this case the resorts are shooting themselves in the foot.  

Also these resorts used to be run on labor that was primarily college students and just-graduated students.  That cost has inflated exponentially.  I know if I graduated with $50k in debt I would go right into my field rather than take a winter or two off trying to break-even as a ski bum in Skitown USA.


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## cdskier (Aug 19, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Vail sold 750,000 epic passes at $950 a pop in 18-19, 925,000 total passes.  Let's take your $5/hr increase at a cost of $96 million and apply it to 925,000 passes.  That's $103.75 more per pass.  You're saving 100 bucks by manipulating the labor market and undercutting the citizenry.



These numbers don't quite match what Vail says in their annual report (they claim about $500M of their roughly $1B in lift revenue came from Epic Pass sales in FY 2019). So either they didn't sell that 925,000 total passes or the average cost of each pass was well under $950. If 925,000 is the right number, then the average price paid was closer to around $550 (entirely plausible as it isn't unreasonable to think that a significant number of Epic pass sales were not the full Epic Adult passes and were instead the cheaper Epic local options or even kids Epic passes). Add $100 onto that pass price and now you've just increased average prices by almost 20%. You can argue that $650 average price for a pass is still cheap, and you'd be right generally speaking. However for some people an extra $100 (or more for families that need multiple passes) would be too much and they'd not get a pass and maybe just ski a few random days at a local hill or maybe stop skiing altogether.

Vail (and other resorts) I'm sure have models to try to predict this, but let's say that you lose 5% of your pass sales if you raise your price 20% in a given year. You're now about $30M short of what you needed to cover that wage increase. Sure you can make it up by raising prices on dining and other services. Vail generated about $182M in dining revenue. If we want to make the $30M up there, we have to increase food prices by about 16%. So that $15 burger that people were already complaining about now costs ~$17.50. That $7 beer now costs $8. Sure you can increase ski school and lodging, etc as well. Ultimately though you're just making skiing more and more expensive for the consumer. Doesn't seem like the best idea for a sport that is already considered "too expensive" and has trouble attracting new participants.

And this doesn't even touch on the point of "undercutting the citizenry". In order for that to be true, there need to actually be citizens that WANT to do these jobs. Some others in this thread have already pointed out reasons why that potential labor pool has dried up from years ago.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wow.  You finally gave a sensible, market-based bit of evidence directly applicable to the conversation being discussed that actually helps support your thesis.  Way to go!  Pat yourself on the back, it took a while, but you got there.
> 
> 
> 
> But then here we go with another ridiculously nasty comment that's completely over-the-top & unbecoming.  It doesn't surprise me anymore.


Truth hurts bud.  Nothing nasty about my comment. You simply have not provided any data on why you are so strongly against H2B workers.  

Your arguments are ideology based and not supported by a single fact so far. For a guy so staunchly in favor of the need for arguments to be based in data free from emotion; all you've offered so far IS emotion.

How far are H2B workers driving down wages?  

How high do wages need to be to right your perceived wrong?

When are you going to stop patronizing places that use H2B workers?  Yes I know your affinity to the Magics and Plattekills of the world.  However, my observation is you spend quite a bit of money and time skiing at Jay, Smuggs etc who do in fact employ foreign help. 

Also you of all people should rightfully understand just how low the revenue opportunities are during shoulder seasons.  You barely ever show up to ski much before Christmas and hang up the skis by early April most years and have openly questioned why people are so passionate about WRD skiing.  

Stop talking and start walking. You want local workers to make more money? Get out there and spend some when they need it the most.

Please come back with real world numbers to fix this great problem. Tell us what it will take monetarily to fix things. 

Good talk



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## deadheadskier (Aug 19, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Another couple points to make...
> 
> A ski industry job bumping chairs or fitting rentals was much more desirable 10-20 years ago when passes were $1,000+ at the destination mountains.  Circa 2005, if you're making $7.50/hr 15 weekends a year that $1,000 season pass the resort throws in would be literally half your compensation.  Today with mega-passes and cheap passes specifically targeting college kids and 20-somethings doing a job for the season pass makes no sense given in most cases the price of a pass is only $300-$500.  In this case the resorts are shooting themselves in the foot.
> 
> Also these resorts used to be run on labor that was primarily college students and just-graduated students.  That cost has inflated exponentially.  I know if I graduated with $50k in debt I would go right into my field rather than take a winter or two off trying to break-even as a ski bum in Skitown USA.


^

Also gets it

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## ss20 (Aug 20, 2020)

I'm going to get rid of some of the gloom and doom in this thread...I work part-time at the local bump as a ski instructor.  This will be my 7th season.  It's really an ideal setup.  I work weekends December 15-March 15.  When we shut down, ski country up north is just getting good.  Also the partner/resort benefits are HUGE, almost beyond belief.  Almost all the major players up north have an industry rate at or around 50% the walk-up lift ticket rate (some considerably less- I've skied a 400 acre resort for $30/day, a 600 acre resort for $49/day).  Co-workers are good/bad as with any job but the seasonality of it makes the bad ones tolerable and the good ones even more special.  

Honestly getting a foot in the industry took my skiing to a new level, made me appreciate my time up north more, and I'm doing more skiing than before for MUCH less money.  I would 100% recommend anyone with 10-15 extra hours a week living in the flatlands to take a similar path at their local hill.


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## icecoast1 (Aug 20, 2020)

ss20 said:


> Also these resorts used to be run on labor that was primarily college students and just-graduated students.  That cost has inflated exponentially.  I know if I graduated with $50k in debt I would go right into my field rather than take a winter or two off trying to break-even as a ski bum in Skitown USA.




One might be more inclined to stay in the ski industry longer if they actually saw a career path, if that minimum wage job as a lifty could actually turn into a semi-decent paying job with benefits, you wouldn't see so much turnover year to year.   The ski industry is pretty good at gaming the system to avoid paying benefits, they make sure the bulk of their workers get laid off and hours cutback just long enough to get under the hours worked threshold to be able to classify a worker as "seasonal" when in fact they work at the resort year round.   When you factor in the high cost of living in resort towns and lack of competitive pay and benefits, its no wonder resorts struggle to find domestic staff.  Up until this year, they have been able to get away with it because many of the voids were able to be filled with foreign labor.


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## EPB (Aug 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I feel like I'm in bizarro world.  Two of the staunchest fiscal conservatives I know in internet land somehow think there's this magic wage threshold that will eliminate the need (or significantly reduce) the reliance on foreign workers by ski resorts. These same two I'm certain have argued against raising the minimum wage to a living wage.
> 
> A lifty ain't going to make Alaskan oil rig wages ever.
> 
> ...


Very disappointing go see this last piece. In 2020, "Nationalism" is more less synonymous with "racism" and I will do nothing of the sort. Nor should I. This is a baseless, gratuitous and bad faith way to communicate when I am merely trying to make points on economic substance. 

Ironically, I didn't come out guns blazing on my real critique (that this is a regressive tax - see above) because I didn't want to go political. This is how you respond. And yes, it's ironic that the budget hawk is worried about regressive taxes (and the liberal isn't), but I do happen to find them unethical. Guess we don't all fit neatly into stereotype boxes. My bend is also that the government has put it's fingers in the wage market here and we don't have true price discovery as a result. 

Regarding who you think "gets it". I never said this wouldn't be a huge shock to the industry (why you think me of all people wouldn't think raising wages in the neighborhood of 50-100% is beyond me - or that rational actors wouldn't have asked for a subsidy in the first place if it weren't beneficial). What you fail to realize is that there is no option but to pay a wage that will incnntivize enough workers to show up. Period, end of story. Call it economics, call it life, call it common sense, whatever you want, but there's no getting around it.

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## deadheadskier (Aug 20, 2020)

A. Wasn't directed at you.  

B. When someone is building the argument that their position is for national policy changes to protect jobs for the citizenry, that IS a nationalism point of view.

C. Thanks for at least putting a number on the wage increases at 50-100%.  I happen to disagree completely with that high of an increase.  The resulting COG increase would be massive at that level.  You would see tourism business contraction.  It would make entry into the sport even more cost prohibitive, which is often argued as a significant problem already. 

D. I'm sticking with my POV that the real reasons for the reliance on foreign help is mostly related to the massive increases in labor demands vs 30 years ago and a stagnant if not decreasing working age local population in many tourist areas due to housing cost increases.  Second home owners and investors have pushed the locals out. 

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Very disappointing go see this last piece. In 2020, "Nationalism" is more less synonymous with "racism" and I will do nothing of the sort. Nor should I. This is a baseless, gratuitous and bad faith way to communicate when I am merely trying to make points on economic substance.



This is what people do when they've "got nothing", they lash out in anger.  Calling people, "RAY-CYST" has become so en vogue with a segment of our society that sadly the charge is losing meaning.  It's sad & pathetic.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Thanks for at least putting a number on the wage increases at 50-100%.



Your even asking for this is dumb. The correct answer is that economically speaking, it is truly impossible to answer your question for a whole variety of reasons.  That's a big part of the whole point of what happens when government artificially monkeys with an entire market or market segment.  Everything becomes completely distorted.    Your "answer" would also vary HUGELY depending up on what geographical area we're dealing with.  Suffice it to say, however, it would likely be several dollars higher than it is now, but nobody can say, "the answer is $3.28" like you're requesting, especially not to blanket cover Sunday River, Maine through Aleyska, Alaska.


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## EPB (Aug 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> A. Wasn't directed at you.
> 
> B. When someone is building the argument that their position is for national policy changes to protect jobs for the citizenry, that IS a nationalism point of view.
> 
> ...



Understood. Maybe I don't follow enough of you guys arguments (apologies to you both, I don't read them all  ), but I tend to not like using what is unfortunately a loaded buzzword these days without being totally sure. That's all. 

Look, 50-100% is a total guess and actual bumps would probably be location-specific. There has been talk about how it's to hard to justify ski bumming for a year or two with student debt. The millennials I know that did the ski bum thing were the type that were wealthy enough to not have student debt in the first place. While anecdotal, these types that have the luxury of not truly caring how much money they make out west is a complicating and countervailing factor to my thesis for sure. 

But yes, paying fewer people a lot more than today's rate (and automating where possible/refraining from hiring the massive army blue/red coats) would be the outcome.

I guess one final thing to crystalize my view is that the first easy step to raise living standards at places like Vail is to cease allowing temp work to come in and drive down wages. It's less about protecting US citizens, especially to help unsympathetic yuppies that want to vacation 24/7 and pay their bills in Western ski towns (Although in places like the MWV, it would be nice to see locals make more $$). 

Totally cool to disagree on supply vs. demand. I think the increased employment is because labor is cheap (initial supply shock) and more improvement/expansion got done because the industry got to make more money than it otherwise would have (subsequent demand hike).

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## EPB (Aug 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Your even asking for this is dumb. The correct answer is that economically speaking, it is truly impossible to answer your question for a whole variety of reasons.  That's a big part of the whole point of what happens when government artificially monkeys with an entire market or market segment.  Everything becomes completely distorted.    Your "answer" would also vary HUGELY depending up on what geographical area we're dealing with.  Suffice it to say, however, it would likely be several dollars higher than it is now, but nobody can say, "the answer is $3.28" like you're requesting, especially not to blanket cover Sunday River, Maine through Aleyska, Alaska.


I agree but will urge going easy on him here, too. If economics were that easy, there wouldn't be a need to debate. The uncertainty is what makes it fun. Only an experiment would give us the true answer.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *I agree but will urge going easy on him here*, too. If economics were that easy, there wouldn't be a need to debate. The uncertainty is what makes it fun. Only an experiment would give us the true answer.



The high road is always an admirable path, but I tend not go "easy" on people immediately post them calling me a racist.


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## EPB (Aug 20, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The high road is always an admirable path, but I tend not go "easy" on people immediately post them calling me a racist.


Understood - just trying to turn down the temperature

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----------



## cdskier (Aug 20, 2020)

I'm kind of curious what people think an appropriate wage should be for various positions in VT commonly filled by H2B visa workers such as housekeepers, dishwashers, line cooks, etc. These aren't exactly advanced positions. 

Alternatively, do some of you even know what the resorts are currently paying their H2B visa workers for these positions? I hope no one is assuming they're just paying all their H2Bs minimum wage...


----------



## EPB (Aug 20, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I'm kind of curious what people think an appropriate wage should be for various positions in VT commonly filled by H2B visa workers such as housekeepers, dishwashers, line cooks, etc. These aren't exactly advanced positions.
> 
> Alternatively, do some of you even know what the resorts are currently paying their H2B visa workers for these positions? I hope no one is assuming they're just paying all their H2Bs minimum wage...



Whatever it costs to get people to show up.

I doubt resorts are paying bare minium wage, but I don't know. My experience with this is limited to working at an outdoor water park in high school (got paid ~$2 an hour over minimum wage at the time, but the park was exempt from paying time and a half overtime), listening to skiing podcasts on the program (sounds like it's an upper middle class young person thing to do that involves some US culture immersion), and random nuggets though the grapevine via friends that have held various seasonal jobs at MWV-based resorts.

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----------



## mister moose (Aug 20, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Does MRG or Middlebury Snowbowl use H2B workers?  Pretty sure they don't. Both fine ski areas and within easy access of I assume your second home in Killington.
> 
> Apparently it's all talk and no walk for you Moose. You ever consider running for office?



Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:

I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets.  As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:

How many H2B visa employees do you hire?  Do you make extra efforts to hire locals?  After including all airfare, lodging and any other H2B costs, do you offer the same or better wage to locals first?  

What percent of your waste stream is recycling, and do you make maximum efforts to encourage compliance by customers?  Perhaps you should hire lodge sheriffs to enforce recycling better.

What is your position on abortion, gun control, BLM, and littering?

Do you have an anti bullying policy and do you publish its effectiveness?

Have you built any nesting habitat for Bicknell's Thrush?  How many acres?

Do you have a policy in place that bans parking for vehicles that get less than 20 miles per gallon?

What is your degree of employee diversity.  Please provide data on age, religious beliefs, skin color, ESL, sexual preference, hairstyle, BMI and left handers.

How much of your food is GMO, Vegan, artificially flavored or imported?  Is it all labeled as such?

While this may sound like a lot of work, I need to walk the walk so I can decide which resort best fits my personal belief system, and then I can post on Alpine Zone with impunity.

Thank you very much,

M Moose
Socially conscious skier


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 20, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:
> 
> I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets.  As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:
> 
> ...



This is fantastic.


----------



## drjeff (Aug 20, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:
> 
> I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets.  As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:
> 
> ...



:beer::beer::beer::beer:


----------



## djd66 (Aug 20, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:
> 
> I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets.  As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:
> 
> ...



This was awesome!


----------



## dblskifanatic (Aug 22, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Dear Killington, Sugarbush, Middlebury, MRG, Suicide Six, Okemo, Magic, Stratton, Bromley:
> 
> I am considering vastly altering your cash flow with some apportioned mega pass revenue or highly discounted day tickets.  As I need to satisfy my personal goals of guilt free skiing, please provide the following information:
> 
> ...



Is this your litmus test for everything you do?  Good luck!  


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## mister moose (Aug 24, 2020)

This ad came up on facebook:



Tells you a little bit of what Alterra is thinking about doing for hiring this season.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 24, 2020)

dblskifanatic said:


> Is this your litmus test for everything you do? Good luck!


Scroll up, you didn't read the related posts.  It's called satire.


----------



## catskillman (Aug 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> My view on Vail eventually declining has nothing to do with "labor costs", or any individual operating cost, it has to do with the fact that I've seen this movie before in other industries, and it always ends the same.  They have a MASSIVE debt position. Nothing that Rob Katz is doing hasnt been done before in other industries.  He's combined an aggressive growth strategy (buying everyone under the sun) with what is essentially a subscription service (EPIC pass), and shows huge revenue increases that I will bet my life on are more from immediately accretive bolt-on-acquisitions than they are from true organic growth.
> 
> So yes, while Vail's EBITDA (Earnings Before I Trick Dumb Auditors) has looked great, I believe there will come a day when the party ends.  I've also said they need to make at least one acquisition per year, because if a year sunsets without an acquisition then you get a true YoY apples-to-apples view of their financials without all the accounting machination ability you have post acquisition.  PEAKS closed September 19, 2019, which means that assuming Vail cant acquire anyone in the next 1.5 months because of COVID19, we'll get that clean accounting view sometime in October.  Maybe I'll be 100% wrong about that part, we'll see, but I think there's a chance you'll see a bad quarter.
> 
> ...



I have not been keeping up to date with the forumn's but this 100% true.

YTY or store for store is the main comparison that shareholders are interested in.  They want increases YTY.  Only way to keep it fuzzy is to buy something new, sell unprofitable divisions, go private etc.  

Covid will most definitely play into their reasons / excuses to the drop in EBIT & EBITDA.

and I will bet most on this site have not heard EBITDA defined that way!


----------



## catskillman (Aug 24, 2020)

mister moose said:


> This ad came up on facebook:
> 
> View attachment 27029
> 
> Tells you a little bit of what Alterra is thinking about doing for hiring this season.


brillant.


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 24, 2020)

catskillman said:


> brillant.



Yeah but she's white


----------



## Bumpsis (Aug 25, 2020)

mister moose said:


> Scroll up, you didn't read the related posts.  It's called satire.



I'm afraid you give your self way too much credit calling your post a satire. At best, it's just mockery, the standard currency for right wingers. 
Reading that stuff was just like tuning in to "outrage talk radio". Mockery is all you got.  A number of things mocked are actually big problems that need solutions in a real world but all that comes from that from the extreme right is just ugliness masquerading as humor. 
Your post would actually be funny if it weren't so sad.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 25, 2020)

Serious business this internet; no humor allowed.


----------



## Bumpsis (Aug 25, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Serious business this internet; no humor allowed.


Now, this I do find humorous - especially considering this particular Moppet character.


----------



## mister moose (Aug 25, 2020)

Bumpsis said:


> I'm afraid you give your self way too much credit calling your post a satire. At best, it's just mockery, the standard currency for right wingers.
> Reading that stuff was just like tuning in to "outrage talk radio". Mockery is all you got.  A number of things mocked are actually big problems that need solutions in a real world but all that comes from that from the extreme right is just ugliness masquerading as humor.
> Your post would actually be funny if it weren't so sad.



It was a list. Look carefully, it was only a list.  There was no mocking of the subject matter, what was being mocked was the concept of tying consumer purchase decisions to companies who publicly state an ideology complimentary to yours, and shunning those that don't.  In other words, remove normal consumer criteria like quality, selection, service, price, warranty, etc.  

I have opinions on those issues, many probably align with yours to some degree.  They do not enter what-so-ever my choice of ski resort.  

Me thinks you might be just a touch oversensitive?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 25, 2020)

mister moose said:


> It was a list. Look carefully, it was only a list.  There was no mocking of the subject matter, what was being mocked was the concept of tying consumer purchase decisions to companies who publicly state an ideology complimentary to yours, and shunning those that don't.  In other words, remove normal consumer criteria like quality, selection, service, price, warranty, etc.
> 
> I have opinions on those issues, many probably align with yours to some degree.  They do not enter what-so-ever my choice of ski resort.
> 
> Me thinks you might be just a touch oversensitive?



It was a clever write, but kinda BS humor as Bumpsis points out.

You proved my point of selective outrage on your part of your position of protecting jobs for "the citizenry" but only when it's convenient for you. 

You entered this conversation with pretty forthright rejection of H2B employment practices at ski areas both for taking jobs from the "citizenry" and also driving down wages for those Americans still competing for those jobs. You also demonstrated very little knowledge about just how bad that wage dive might be in reality. Deflected to the oil industry when called to back up your position.

Nobody is perfect, but I hope most do have a "line" where talk becomes action. I don't buy chicken sandwiches from Chikafilet as an example. 

But I'm really not sure what your line is for continuing to do business with Killington.  How low do the H2B wages need to be there before you back up your talk with some walk?  I don't think you care so much to even find out what the market is truly like. 

You just like to talk

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## machski (Aug 26, 2020)

Sunday River and Sugarloaf will put the Maine Pass onsale Sept. 1st and offered only until October 12th.  The levels are Gold/Silver/Bronze at $1399/899/649 respectively.  The Nitro pass age group can pick up a Silver Mai e at Bronze pricing.  Benefits are the same as the NEP's at those levels EXCEPT no Loon access (Loon's carrying capacity is much smaller and as such, Boyne has sit it off from these passes currently offered.  IF you already bought a 20/21 NEP prior to June 15th, Loon is still on that pass).  They do also have unlimited and limited (blackout days) Maine 4 day passes at $349/279 respectively and those are good for this coming season as well as 21/22.

Currently, Loon will likely offer a pass for itself but that won't be announced until after Labor Day.  Sunday River when asked on FB if other restrictions on season pass holders is planned (IE advanced reservations, etc for specific days) has answered no.  So they fully intend to limit based on NEPs sold through June 15th and what will likely be reduced pickup of passes moving forward.

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I hope most do have a "line" where talk becomes action.* I don't buy chicken sandwiches from Chikafilet as an example.*



Why?


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 26, 2020)

For the same reason I don't buy Barilla pasta

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> For the same reason I don't buy Barilla pasta



Some earthy, crunchy, organic or GMO thing?


----------



## cdskier (Aug 26, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> For the same reason I don't buy Barilla pasta



Interesting...never knew Barilla had a similar controversy to Chikfila until just now. Looks like Barilla turned it around though and made an effort to learn.


----------



## EPB (Aug 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Why?


Fast food isn't worth a 40+ minute one-way drive.

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## Smellytele (Aug 26, 2020)

Chick-fil-A is good as is barilla pasta.


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## BenedictGomez (Aug 26, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> Fast food isn't worth a 40+ minute one-way drive.



That makes sense then.



Smellytele said:


> Chick-fil-A is good as is barilla pasta.



Chick-Fil-A is my favorite fast food.  But the most amazing thing is their employees.  They must have the most amazing HR on planet earth, because for the life of me I dont understand how they always find intelligent, hard-working, caring, employees for fast food wages.  Doesn't matter what state or region you're in, their employees are competent & the exact opposite of what you think of when you think of fast food worker.   If it isnt an MBA case study, it should be.


----------



## EPB (Aug 26, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That makes sense then.



That was a joke. 

I presume he means because the CEO is anti gay marriage because it turns out Barilla's CEO is too (hadn't rate heard of that before). He lives close to where I grew up, so I figured I'd look up where the closest one was, and it would be a real hike to go to the closest location from his town.

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----------



## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> That makes sense then.
> 
> 
> 
> Chick-Fil-A is my favorite fast food.  But the most amazing thing is their employees.  They must have the most amazing HR on planet earth, because for the life of me I dont understand how they always find intelligent, hard-working, caring, employees for fast food wages.  Doesn't matter what state or region you're in, their employees are competent & the exact opposite of what you think of when you think of fast food worker.   If it isnt an MBA case study, it should be.


Do you think it has anything to do with every Sunday off and Christmas/Easter too?  Almost unheard of in fast food/retail space and a nice perk of working for them.

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----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> I presume* he means because the CEO is anti gay marriage*



He's been dead for 6 or 7 years.  His son, who seems pretty moderate in comparion's in charge now, but even if not, SCOTUS made that a moot point 5 years ago. 

In any event, that not a "principled" hill to die on, that's being a puppet dancing at the end of a well-publicized marionette tether.  The teacup chihuahua in the handbag of Social Justice.  

And I'd submit to you the targeting of CFA really didnt have to do so much with Cathy being against gay marriage, as much as it did with him giving great gobs of $$$$ to GOP candidates.  Disagree with that?  Okay. Fine.   But if you do I've a got parchment scroll dropping to the floor sized list of high-profile liberal donors who profit off things demonstrably worse & far more anti-gay, and their companies arent targeted.  Not even so much as a word let alone the kind of marketing dollars spent against CFA to make people like DHS feel like self-righteous martyrs for not eating a chicken sandwich.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

machski said:


> *Do you think it has anything to do with every Sunday off and Christmas/Easter too?  Almost unheard of in fast food/retail space and a nice perk of working for them.*



It is a nice perk, but I mean, I know tons of lovely, hard-working, principled, intelligent, atheists, so I don't think having a strong Christian policies in place is the answer.  And I'm not sure mandatory Sundays off is actually a net positive, though I submit I could be wrong about that.


----------



## machski (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> It is a nice perk, but I mean, I know tons of lovely, hard-working, principled, intelligent, atheists, so I don't think having a strong Christian policies in place is the answer.  And I'm not sure mandatory Sundays off is actually a net positive, though I submit I could be wrong about that.


I wasn't referencing from a Christian perspective, more that Chick-fil-A gives these days off regardless where most in the space are 7 days a week/ 365.  At least you know you always get half the weekend off, more than can be said for other places.  Easter maybe more of a Christian thing, but Christmas is more of a pagan family seasonal holiday beyond the Christian side of it now I think.

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----------



## EPB (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> .. but even if not, SCOTUS made that a moot point 5 years ago....



Not to be that guy, but I've been to a gay wedding for a very close friend (went to his bachelor party, too). Definitely on board with gay marriage and presumably against Chick-fil-A's "official" stance. That said, it's a dead issue, and changing behavior over it feels like beating a dead horse.

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----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 27, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> He's been dead for 6 or 7 years.  His son, who seems pretty moderate in comparion's in charge now, but even if not, SCOTUS made that a moot point 5 years ago.
> 
> In any event, that not a "principled" hill to die on, that's being a puppet dancing at the end of a well-publicized marionette tether.  The teacup chihuahua in the handbag of Social Justice.
> 
> And I'd submit to you the targeting of CFA really didnt have to do so much with Cathy being against gay marriage, as much as it did with him giving great gobs of $$$$ to GOP candidates.  Disagree with that?  Okay. Fine.   But if you do I've a got parchment scroll dropping to the floor sized list of high-profile liberal donors who profit off things demonstrably worse & far more anti-gay, and their companies arent targeted.  Not even so much as a word let alone the kind of marketing dollars spent against CFA to make people like DHS feel like self-righteous martyrs for not eating a chicken sandwich.


Lol

K

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## BenedictGomez (Aug 27, 2020)

eastern powder baby said:


> *Definitely on board with gay marriage and presumably against Chick-fil-A's "official" stance.* That said, it's a dead issue, and changing behavior over it feels like beating a dead horse.



Yeah, I get that entirely.   And I even think if you want to "boycott" them with your wallet as was said is fine, but ONLY if it's part of a broader holistic action.   If not, you just look like a giant virtue signalling douchebag if you just pick the publicized "trendy" ones.

 For instance, if you're boycotting Chick-Fil-A, then you better not (((((checks the 478 entries on aforementioned long parchment scroll for an example))))),  have a Netflix account given they're more than happy to film in & carry flics of nations that execute gay people due to low labor & filming costs.   Executing gays seems pretty bad if you care about that sort of thing, but hey, that's just my opinion.


----------



## p_levert (Aug 28, 2020)

Ikon Pass provides more details on their Adventure Assurance program: https://www.ikonpass.com/en/adventure-assurance

I think it's kind of lame.  What I don't like is the "7 consecutive days or 21 total days" threshold for the single destination option.  Why have a threshold at all?  Also, you get diddly for partial shutdown (ie. severe capacity limitation).


----------



## Cobbold (Sep 1, 2020)

Off topic, but while watching law and order on WE channel, saw my first epic pass tv ad, thought I was seeing things at first, thought it was a very good ad.   Wonder that means if vail is running ads?


----------



## JimG. (Sep 2, 2020)

p_levert said:


> Ikon Pass provides more details on their Adventure Assurance program: https://www.ikonpass.com/en/adventure-assurance
> 
> I think it's kind of lame.  What I don't like is the "7 consecutive days or 21 total days" threshold for the single destination option.  Why have a threshold at all?  Also, you get diddly for partial shutdown (ie. severe capacity limitation).



Property owners must be furious. 

Imagine owning a property at a ski resort and being told you are limited to 21 days total per season.


----------



## cdskier (Sep 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Property owners must be furious.
> 
> Imagine owning a property at a ski resort and being told you are limited to 21 days total per season.



Huh? That's not at all what they're saying. The 21 day number is the threshold for a single resort being closed to get a refund. It is either 7 consecutive days or 21 days total. So if Sugarbush for example was closed 6 days in December (after December 10th), 6 days in January, 6 days in February, and 6 days in March, that would be 24 days of closure total. That exceeds the 21 day threshold so if you chose Sugarbush as your "single destination" option for the Adventure Assurance protection, you'd get a credit for whatever percentage 24 days is of the core season.

It has nothing to do with how many days per season you ski personally (or are allowed to ski).


----------



## JimG. (Sep 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Huh? That's not at all what they're saying. The 21 day number is the threshold for a single resort being closed to get a refund. It is either 7 consecutive days or 21 days total. So if Sugarbush for example was closed 6 days in December (after December 10th), 6 days in January, 6 days in February, and 6 days in March, that would be 24 days of closure total. That exceeds the 21 day threshold so if you chose Sugarbush as your "single destination" option for the Adventure Assurance protection, you'd get a credit for whatever percentage 24 days is of the core season.
> 
> It has nothing to do with how many days per season you ski personally (or are allowed to ski).



Read more carefully...my bad. I'm getting cross eyed with all these restrictions and cut-offs.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2020)

Does anyone know if any resort has addressed my curiosity regarding vaccination?  I haven't even heard of any mention the issue.   Clearly most are taking a, _"we'll cross that bridge when we come to it"_ thing, and I think that's a real mistake rather than preparing for it & preparing the general public for it.


----------



## Glade Monkey (Sep 2, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Huh? That's not at all what they're saying. The 21 day number is the threshold for a single resort being closed to get a refund. It is either 7 consecutive days or 21 days total. So if Sugarbush for example was closed 6 days in December (after December 10th), 6 days in January, 6 days in February, and 6 days in March, that would be 24 days of closure total. That exceeds the 21 day threshold so if you chose Sugarbush as your "single destination" option for the Adventure Assurance protection, you'd get a credit for whatever percentage 24 days is of the core season.
> 
> It has nothing to do with how many days per season you ski personally (or are allowed to ski).


Their "core" season from 12/10 to 4/11 is 122 days. So your example of 24 days closed due to COVID would be just under 20% credit towards next year's IKON.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Does anyone know if any resort has addressed my curiosity regarding vaccination?  I haven't even heard of any mention the issue.   Clearly most are taking a, _"we'll cross that bridge when we come to it"_ thing, and I think that's a real mistake rather than preparing for it & preparing the general public for it.



Nothing that I've seen. A total zero. Assume they are thinking there will not be a vaccine in time to plan for such a thing this season. I feel that is reasonable. 

I know I'm not going to the front of the vaccination line when it is available considering the rush to develop and profit from it. I'll wait to see how you make out.


----------



## machski (Sep 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Nothing that I've seen. A total zero. Assume they are thinking there will not be a vaccine in time to plan for such a thing this season. I feel that is reasonable.
> 
> I know I'm not going to the front of the vaccination line when it is available considering the rush to develop and profit from it. I'll wait to see how you make out.



^^^^^ Thus, why ski areas have not even considered this.  The high potential for many to not get it if one does become available widely midseason or so.

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----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 2, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Nothing that I've seen. A total zero. *Assume they are thinking there will not be a vaccine in time to plan for such a thing this season. I feel that is reasonable. *



I dont; as I think the vaccine will be here way faster than is currently expected given the early data looks.  Hopefully they're at least planning for that possibility even if they're not publicly releasing those plans.


----------



## ALLSKIING (Sep 2, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont; as I think the vaccine will be here way faster than is currently expected given the early data looks.  Hopefully they're at least planning for that possibility even if they're not publicly releasing those plans.


I heard today that they will have mobile vaccine sights set-up possibly as soon as November. Will be interesting to see if that comes to fruition. 

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----------



## Smellytele (Sep 3, 2020)

ALLSKIING said:


> I heard today that they will have mobile vaccine sights set-up possibly as soon as November. Will be interesting to see if that comes to fruition.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G988U using AlpineZone mobile app



Pushing hard to get vaccines before the election...


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----------



## boston_e (Sep 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Pushing hard to get vaccines before the election...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



It seems that way... I am not anti-vax in any way (get the flu shot every year etc etc) but I have to say I agree with others and won't be first in line to get something that was pushed through via political pressure to try to help re-election chances.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2020)

Hey when you're the captain of a sinking ship you'll look for any flotation device. The production and pressured introduction of a vaccine due to political reasons is downright scary. 

That said, I don't believe there will be a vaccine that has passed late stage trials and has made it to production in meaningful numbers by the of the year. That's even with a rubber stamp of approval. Even if there was, there a low likelihood of mass innoculation by then due to sheer numbers. That would leave a (relative) return to normal highly unlikely until tshirt weather on Superstar.


----------



## Edd (Sep 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Pushing hard to get vaccines before the election...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



My thought exactly. 


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## EPB (Sep 3, 2020)

Edd said:


> My thought exactly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Of course. Any rational group in power would.

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## njdiver85 (Sep 3, 2020)

In the early stages of the vaccine distribution, I would assume they are going to prioritize elderly and high risk individuals, so a vaccine for example, for a healthy 40 year old, will probably not be obtainable for quite some time.  We are six months into Covid testing, and the tests are still being rationed to some extent!  Not to mention, nobody is prepared yet to distribute a vaccine that requires storage and transport at ultra-cold temperatures.  It's definitely good news, but not going to help this ski season.


----------



## mikec142 (Sep 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Huh? That's not at all what they're saying. The 21 day number is the threshold for a single resort being closed to get a refund. It is either 7 consecutive days or 21 days total. So if Sugarbush for example was closed 6 days in December (after December 10th), 6 days in January, 6 days in February, and 6 days in March, that would be 24 days of closure total. That exceeds the 21 day threshold so if you chose Sugarbush as your "single destination" option for the Adventure Assurance protection, you'd get a credit for whatever percentage 24 days is of the core season.
> 
> It has nothing to do with how many days per season you ski personally (or are allowed to ski).



I just read the information provided in the link above.  It seems that we are automatically enrolled in the all destination category.  I have no idea what my season will look like, but if it's like any of the previous 5 seasons, the vast majority of my east coast skiing will be at Sugarbush and then a few days at Windham.  I'd like to do a quick trip out west to ski an Ikon destination, but I haven't made any plans and if that doesn't happen it will mean more days at Sugarbush.

Is there an advantage to picking a single destination?  If so, given that at least half my total ski days would be at Sugarbush, I assume it makes sense to pick them?


----------



## p_levert (Sep 3, 2020)

Well, if you Ikon pass holders are worried about reservations and capacity limits, you can always head to Boyne in Michigan:

"We're stoked to share that season passes are set to go back on sale this fall! The ski experience may look different, but the snow falls the same. We do not anticipate limiting capacities at Boyne Mountain Resort or utilizing a reservation system. Boyne Passes (Gold, Silver, Bronze, and NoMi) include our Worry-Free Winter Assurance - making sure you get the full value out of your pass."

from https://www.boynemountain.com/season-passes

Of course, the skiing sucks, but you can't have everything.


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## cdskier (Sep 3, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I just read the information provided in the link above.  It seems that we are automatically enrolled in the all destination category.  I have no idea what my season will look like, but if it's like any of the previous 5 seasons, the vast majority of my east coast skiing will be at Sugarbush and then a few days at Windham.  I'd like to do a quick trip out west to ski an Ikon destination, but I haven't made any plans and if that doesn't happen it will mean more days at Sugarbush.
> 
> Is there an advantage to picking a single destination?  If so, given that at least half my total ski days would be at Sugarbush, I assume it makes sense to pick them?



There's pros and cons of both options. The way I see it, choosing a single destination makes a lot of sense if you ski mostly at that one resort. Here's a couple examples involving Sugarbush.

If Sugarbush was closed 30 days and you chose that as your single destination, then you get credit for those days (which amounts to about 25% of your purchase price). If you had left it at "all resorts" and Sugarbush was the only one closed, then you get credit for less than 1% (because now you're looking at the percentage of possible days at ALL 37 eligible Ikon resorts).

The downside of picking a single resort is that if say all the western Ikon resorts were closed for a certain number of days but Sugarbush never closed, then you get 0 whereas someone with "all resorts" would get some credit for those western resorts being closed.


----------



## EPB (Sep 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> There's pros and cons of both options. The way I see it, choosing a single destination makes a lot of sense if you ski mostly at that one resort...



Agreed. Nothing's perfect, but this seems like a reasonably well thought out policy.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 3, 2020)

boston_e said:


> It seems that way... I am not anti-vax in any way (get the flu shot every year etc etc) but I have to say I agree with others and won't be first in line to get* something that was pushed through via political pressure to try to help re-election chances.*



This is greatly, and vastly, being overblown, and is mostly false.

The only "non-mostly" bit that isnt false, is that yes, obviously the Trump Administration would like to have a vaccine before the election for obvious reasons, that would, "yes", help their chances at re-election.  But despite everything you're hearing on TV, and I'm sure it will only get worse, there's very little Trump 2020 can do about it.  It didn't matter who was POTUS, this was always going to be an expedited, emergency process, for obvious health reasons.  

Trump cant create a working vaccine at will, Trump cant enroll patients, Trump cant "rig" double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies, Trump cant get numerous physician experts to approve the vaccine, in fact, if you understand how drugs come to market, there's very little Trump can actually do beyond initiating the emergency fast-track process, which he did.  I was telling people on this board there would likely be a vaccine in 2020 despite what you were hearing on TV, because I understand the clinical trial process pretty dang well, and obviously my prediction (which I still think will be correct) had nothing to do with "politics".

Sadly, we live in a nation so polarized, that people who hate Trump will believe anything that fits the "Orange Man bad" narrative, which is a tragedy in this particular case, because it may well cost lives if left-wing people > 60 or people with comorbidities dont take the vaccine out of mistrust of Trump.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 3, 2020)

As for the vaccine itself, there was an FDA Advisory Panel just announced for October 22nd, and this particular panel is the folks who would have jurisdiction over such things (link below).

Usually the way FDA panels work is they have their info to analyze a week ahead of time, which means I speculate (strong emphasis on speculate) that someone, perhaps PFE, perhaps MRNA, etc., will have completed & unblinded their Phase III data by October 14th.  I expect that data to look absolutely fantastic based upon their prior data.  If so, the, "itz ahl uh-bowt politix" narrative should subside in all but the most politically partisan of people. Also, I expect the stock market to absolutely rip that day, but we'll see. lol

https://www.fda.gov/advisory-commit...ommittee-october-22-2020-meeting-announcement


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 3, 2020)

cdskier said:


> The way I see it, *choosing a single destination makes a lot of sense if you ski mostly at that one resort*.



Like the good ol' days!

Makes me wonder how much (if any) camaraderie is suffering from these new mega passes.  You used to see the same faces, and now that's not always the case.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Sep 3, 2020)

I can only speak to my local PA hill and I'd say the camaraderie is unchanged.  As a matter of fact some folks have already or are planning ski vacations together that may have not otherwise.


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> This is greatly, and vastly, being overblown, and is mostly false.
> 
> The only "non-mostly" bit that isnt false, is that yes, obviously the Trump Administration would like to have a vaccine before the election for obvious reasons, that would, "yes", help their chances at re-election.  But despite everything you're hearing on TV, and I'm sure it will only get worse, there's very little Trump 2020 can do about it.  It didn't matter who was POTUS, this was always going to be an expedited, emergency process, for obvious health reasons.
> 
> ...



There are a lot of things that most think Trump (or any sitting president) couldn't do, and yet he has managed to do them. He has no one to blame but himself with any such hesitation. I have largely voted Republican since I was 18, but this crazy train is completely off the rails. A vaccine is not going to get it back on - though for obvious reason, I hope it's available and safe ASAP.


----------



## machski (Sep 3, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> Hey when you're the captain of a sinking ship you'll look for any flotation device. The production and pressured introduction of a vaccine due to political reasons is downright scary.
> 
> That said, I don't believe there will be a vaccine that has passed late stage trials and has made it to production in meaningful numbers by the of the year. That's even with a rubber stamp of approval. Even if there was, there a low likelihood of mass innoculation by then due to sheer numbers. That would leave a (relative) return to normal highly unlikely until tshirt weather on Superstar.


First off, Vaccine creation knowledge and technology have advanced leaps and bounds, allowing for rapid development (mRNA methods where "real" viral material that could possibly infect are not being used any longer.  Safety of these vaccines is likely very high, the main questions will be efficacy and duration of immunity).

Not made it to production?  Guess you missed all that news, the vast majority of pharma companies in stage 3 trials haven't waited for approval to start production.  They are already ramping production up now, ahead of approval.  Yes, its a risk for those manufacturers, but they know this is a vaccine that if it works and is approved, will be needed immediately and not 6 months down the road after they ramp production.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 3, 2020)

No, it's quite hard to miss any news these days.

However, you misquoted me. I said, "production in meaningful numbers".

20,000  200,000 2 million, 20 million. Not enough. It will be a great start to innoculate the highest risk groups, but not enough for any sort of return to normal for this season  which was the topic we were talking about.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 3, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> No, it's quite hard to miss any news these days.
> 
> However, you misquoted me. I said, "production in meaningful numbers".
> 
> 20,000  200,000 2 million, 20 million. Not enough. It will be a great start to innoculate the highest risk groups, but not enough for any sort of return to normal for this season  which was the topic we were talking about.



I think they'll do okay.   They had to build-out a pretty impressive system for testing, which shockingly didnt previously exist, and I imagine they'll lean on that heavily for initial distribution channels.  And IMO the Trump Administration did something outside-the-box that was a bit of a financial gamble, but I think was really smart, which is, they already purchased the non-approved vaccine, which as you may imagine is completely unprecedented, and so it's already being manufactured as we speak.  If it fails in trial, it's a multi-billion dollar toilet flush, but if it works, the Trump Administration will have undoubtedly saved lives with this gamble.

So let's guesstimate numbers, because it's what I do & I actually enjoy it.  There are ~330 or so million human beings in America,and about ~5M are little tykes, so removing them gets us to about 325M.  Each year, only about 40% of Americans show up for a flu shot.  Now, surely there will be many Americans wanting COVID19 immunization that dont normally get the flu shot, but as evidenced by the thread there are surely also people who the media has sufficiently scared into not getting the "rushed" & "potentially dangerous" COVID19 immunization.  So let's call that a wash & still go with 40%.

That get's us to a need for 130M people to be immunized.  The government is already procuring 100M doses, so they should be set I think to vaccinate about 40% of the population who wants it relatively soon.  This, of course, depends on them solving the logistics nightmare of roughly getting the right number of doses to the right places.  There will surely be problems, and assuming the vaccine is delivered before January 20, 2021, you will surely hear about every one of them.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 4, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> There are a lot of things that most think Trump (or any sitting president) couldn't do, and yet he has managed to do them. He has no one to blame but himself with any such hesitation. I have largely voted Republican since I was 18, but this crazy train is completely off the rails. A vaccine is not going to get it back on - though for obvious reason, I hope it's available and safe ASAP.



What this postng by u have in last few pages have to due with season pass considering
Nothing at all all politics what is supposed have taken advantage
So glad I done on AZ.
And on better run Harvey NY ski blog fourms where people respect owner and administrators wiser about what ok to ski forum .


----------



## Newpylong (Sep 4, 2020)

I *think* you're singling me out but it's difficult to comprehend. I have made next to no posts until the topic of vaccine arose in the past two days. Covid topics on this forum (for months), and in the real world are political charged unfortunately. But dully noted.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 4, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> What this postng by u have in last few pages have to due with season pass consideringNothing at all all politics what is supposed have taken advantageSo glad I done on AZ.And on better run Harvey NY ski blog fourms where people respect owner and administrators wiser about what ok to ski forum .


Thread drift always happens... this came up as the subject of how the release of a vaccine might help ski resort operations as the season progresses.


----------



## skiur (Sep 4, 2020)

Don't anger the thread police!


----------



## cdskier (Sep 4, 2020)

Vaccine availability absolutely could be a consideration for some people in whether they want to get a season pass. So I think this is actually right on topic.


----------



## boston_e (Sep 4, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Vaccine availability absolutely could be a consideration for some people in whether they want to get a season pass. So I think this is actually right on topic.



And indeed, could also change the situation regarding quarantine requirements for out of staters which will also affect season pass decisions.

Peoples confidence in the vaccine will also play a part in this and for better or worse, part of that has become political.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 4, 2020)

boston_e said:


> It seems that way... I am not anti-vax in any way (get the flu shot every year etc etc) but I have to say I agree with others and won't be first in line to get something that was pushed through via political pressure to try to help re-election chances.



You get the only point I was trying to make. Not anti-vax in any way, totally up to date with my vaccinations including shingles and pneumonia vaccine.

But I'm not going to be a guinea pig for this current shitshow.


----------



## ScottySkis (Sep 4, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> I *think* you're singling me out but it's difficult to comprehend. I have made next to no posts until the topic of vaccine arose in the past two days. Covid topics on this forum (for months), and in the real world are political charged unfortunately. But dully noted.



I ignored ing BG
This is for everyone who goes to far on AZ


----------



## JimG. (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> They had to build-out a pretty impressive system for testing



This makes me laugh.

I tried to get a COVID test for my son who is currently in his first year of college and on campus. The school asked us to get him tested if we could. So I brought him to a local urgent care location and he was tested using the nasal swab. That was on July 28. 

We heard nothing for 2 weeks. So by definition that test is useless now. When I called to find out if we would ever get a result we were told that tests for college or school was LOW PRIORITY and that we would get the results WHEN WE GET THEM. Awesome! Considering the number of colleges that are shutting down already I'm gonna have to call BULLSHIT on your use of the term impressive. BTW still no result on my son's now useless test.

IMO if ski areas are smart they will plan to operate as if COVID is unchecked and raging through the population.


----------



## Smellytele (Sep 4, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> I ignored ing BG
> This is for everyone who goes to far on AZ



You post a lot seeing you are done with AZ.[emoji1][emoji1598]


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## machski (Sep 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This makes me laugh.
> 
> I tried to get a COVID test for my son who is currently in his first year of college and on campus. The school asked us to get him tested if we could. So I brought him to a local urgent care location and he was tested using the nasal swab. That was on July 28.
> 
> ...


Wrong testing, think BG was referring to vaccine testing in his post.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## boston_e (Sep 4, 2020)

machski said:


> Wrong testing, think BG was referring to vaccine testing in his post.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



I read it as COVID testing .... and that those same test sites would be used for vaccine distribution.. but who knows.

Regarding testing sites my experience is not unsimilar to Jim’s.  I tried calling a few local testing sites in hopes to get tested for travel purposes.  None of the sites I called could tell me if insurance would cover the test, how much it would cost if insurance didn’t cover it, or when I would get the results.

if testing were super easy resorts could probably open up more lodges etc for those who demonstrated a negative test.


----------



## skiur (Sep 4, 2020)

boston_e said:


> I read it as COVID testing .... and that those same test sites would be used for vaccine distribution.. but who knows.
> 
> Regarding testing sites my experience is not unsimilar to Jim’s.  I tried calling a few local testing sites in hopes to get tested for travel purposes.  None of the sites I called could tell me if insurance would cover the test, how much it would cost if insurance didn’t cover it, or when I would get the results.
> 
> if testing were super easy resorts could probably open up more lodges etc for those who demonstrated a negative test.



Will they be testing at the door of the lodge?  Passing a test means nothing.  You can pass a test, leave the test room and get infected walking back to your car.  The antigen test is more important I would say but apparently that test has accuracy issues.  This ski season is going to suck.  Hopefully by the 21-22 season a few vaccines are out and it won't be an issue anymore.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> I done on AZ.



*FACT CHECK:*   False


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This makes me laugh.
> 
> I tried to get a COVID test for my son who is currently in his first year of college and on campus. The school asked us to get him tested if we could. So I brought him to a local urgent care location and he was tested using the nasal swab. That was on July 28. We heard nothing for 2 weeks.
> .



Guy goes skiing. Takes a terrible tumble on a black diamond & breaks his leg.  Guy blames Toyota for his broken leg because he drove a Land Cruiser to the ski resort.    

Your blaming the Federal Government makes about the same sense as the guy blaming Toyota.   

Also, just medically speaking, I agree with the response you were given.  There are something like 25 Million college kids in America all going to school at roughly the same time.  It would be a completely unreasonable expectation to think those tests should be prioritized during a healthcare pandemic, and I'd go further & say it's dumb of the college(s) to ask to test thousands of people with absolutely no symptoms all in the (I imagine) presumed hopes of possibly catching a person or two who is asymptomatic.  Sounds far more like lawyer-repellent than an actual best practices healthcare policy.  Especially if they were telling you to take the test in late July!


----------



## JimG. (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Guy goes skiing. Takes a terrible tumble on a black diamond & breaks his leg.  Guy blames Toyota for his broken leg because he drove a Land Cruiser to the ski resort.
> 
> Your blaming the Federal Government makes about the same sense as the guy blaming Toyota.
> 
> Also, just medically speaking, I agree with the response you were given.  There are something like 25 Million college kids in America all going to school at roughly the same time.  It would be a completely unreasonable expectation to think those tests should be prioritized during a healthcare pandemic, and I'd go further & say it's dumb of the college(s) to ask to test thousands of people with absolutely no symptoms all in the (I imagine) presumed hopes of possibly catching a person or two who is asymptomatic.  Sounds far more like lawyer-repellent than an actual best practices healthcare policy.  Especially if they were telling you to take the test in late July!



I wonder if your opinion would be different if your daughter were old enough to be attending college this Fall.

I congratulate you on your proven ability to ignore the main point of any post you disagree with which was to call out your comment that the current testing programs nationally are, your word, "impressive".


----------



## Dickc (Sep 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This makes me laugh.
> 
> I tried to get a COVID test for my son who is currently in his first year of college and on campus. The school asked us to get him tested if we could. So I brought him to a local urgent care location and he was tested using the nasal swab. That was on July 28.
> 
> ...



Contrast that with MYSELF.  I was scheduled to have surgery at MGH on August 11th.  I needed a COVID test with a negative result no more than 72 hours prior to surgery.  I had a test done in Lynn, Ma at the old Union Hospital, a sister hospital to MGH.  I had the results at 8:30 THE NEXT MORNING.  They were negative and I had my second fusion surgery on Tuesday August 11.  Not sure if I'll be healed AND Rehabbed in time to ski this winter, but happily I can stand up straight without much pain for the fist time in a few years.  Now the trick is to remember to stand up straight as I am SO used to stooping from the pain.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I wonder if your opinion would be different if your daughter were old enough to be attending college this Fall.



I assure you I'd have the same opinion, because the college's request is completely useless.  Just because you dont have COVID19 on July 26th doesnt mean you wont have it on August 26th when kid's report to school.   I really cant express enough how nonsensical that is.  As I said, I'd put 10 to 1 odds on it being completely for their own legal protection.  Why yes, _"all our students have been properly tested, and are negative for COVID19"_, etc....



JimG. said:


> I congratulate you on your proven ability to ignore the main point of any post you disagree with which was to call out your comment that the current testing programs nationally are, your word, "impressive".



I seized precisely on your main point, and yes, you're laying blame at the completely incorrect party.  If I'm at fault it's for not spending more time explaining the testing process to you, but at the end of the day, suffice it to say let's just leave it at the fact that the Federal government is not to blame for you not getting the test results quicker.


----------



## p_levert (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I assure you I'd have the same opinion, because the college's request is completely useless.  Just because you dont have COVID19 on July 26th doesnt mean you wont have it on August 26th when kid's report to school.   I really cant express enough how nonsensical that is.  As I said, I'd put 10 to 1 odds on it being completely for their own legal protection.  Why yes, _"all our students have been properly tested, and are negative for COVID19"_, etc....
> 
> 
> 
> I seized precisely on your main point, and yes, you're laying blame at the completely incorrect party.  If I'm at fault it's for not spending more time explaining the testing process to you, but at the end of the day, suffice it to say let's just leave it at the fact that the Federal government is not to blame for you not getting the test results quicker.



BG- I would point out that JimG is complaining about the exact same thing that I have complained about.  When you shorten somebody's post, you frequently twist the meaning around. Better to leave the "war in piece" original text than distort.  But you didn't put in any bold this time, so good for you.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

p_levert said:


> BG- I would point out that JimG is complaining about the exact same thing that I have complained about.



I know, right!  It's almost like he repeated something he _just_ recently heard. Contextually it's rather obviously wrong here too given I replied to precisely his claim, but I notice you didn't point that out.  As for the "bold" bit?  People on forums do that to highlight the portion of the text they're chiefly replying too.  _#InternetTipsForOldPeople_


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 4, 2020)

Dickc said:


> Contrast that with MYSELF.  I was scheduled to have surgery at MGH on August 11th.  I needed a COVID test with a negative result no more than 72 hours prior to surgery.  I had a test done in Lynn, Ma at the old Union Hospital, a sister hospital to MGH.  I had the results at 8:30 THE NEXT MORNING.  They were negative and I had my second fusion surgery on Tuesday August 11.  Not sure if I'll be healed AND Rehabbed in time to ski this winter, but happily I can stand up straight without much pain for the fist time in a few years.  Now the trick is to remember to stand up straight as I am SO used to stooping from the pain.


Best wishes for a swift recovery and getting back on snow.  Hopefully this recent fusion is the last you will need.  My dad has had six + 1 revision over the past ten years. Seems finally good.  Amazingly he still can golf, which he may love more than I do skiing. Hope you have a similar return to glory

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## deadheadskier (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know, right!  It's almost like he repeated something he _just_ recently heard. Contextually it's rather obviously wrong here too given I replied to precisely his claim, but I notice you didn't point that out.  As for the "bold" bit?  People on forums do that to highlight the portion of the text they're chiefly replying too.  _#InternetTipsForOldPeople_



#internetTipsforayoungperson

Three posts in a row of being a condescending prick. 

Cut the BS 

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Three posts in a row of being a condescending prick.



I deny either of my posts @ Jim were remotely condescending, but rather explanatory (or attempting to be).

_For Real Tho'_, I fully admit that my post @ LeVert was condescending, but he "earned" it.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I seized precisely on your main point, and yes, you're laying blame at the completely incorrect party.  If I'm at fault it's for not spending more time explaining the testing process to you, but at the end of the day, suffice it to say let's just leave it at the fact that the Federal government is not to blame for you not getting the test results quicker.



I'm not blaming anyone or attacking anything; all I'm saying is that your previous comment that COVID testing is "impressive" is false in my experience. It seems like a joke to me.

I'm not looking for entirely obvious explanations from you either. Or your interpretation of my experience.

So then I assume your answer is yes you believe that US COVID testing is impressive.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 4, 2020)

JimG. said:


> So then *I assume your answer is yes you believe that US COVID testing is impressive.*



You're correct.  But you will never read that anywhere, or see it on TV.  Thus I dont expect anyone in this thread or elsewhere in the general public to agree with me, unless they're other industry insiders who understand what it takes to logistically build such a thing out from literally virtually scratch for a country of 330 Million human beings.

That said, with regards to "your story" as it were, none of that was what I was talking about, I was merely saying that you were laying blame at the incorrect feet. Your beef is with the Reference laboratory, not the Federal Government. That was the entire point of my post, though admittedly perhaps I wasnt clear enough.  If it came across as "condescending" as D.H.S. claims, that was not my intention.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 4, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You're correct.  But you will never read that anywhere, or see it on TV.  Thus I dont expect anyone in this thread or elsewhere in the general public to agree with me, unless they're other industry insiders who understand what it takes to logistically build such a thing out from literally virtually scratch for a country of 330,000,000.
> 
> That said, with regards to "your story" as it were, none of that was what I was talking about, I was merely saying that you were laying blame at the incorrect feet. Your beef is with the Reference laboratory, not the Federal Government. That was the entire point of my post, though perhaps I wasnt clear enough.



There, that wasn't so hard. Again I have no "beef" with anything. I brought my kid to get a test and couldn't get a result. I'm certainly not paying for it.

We disagree on this issue of "impressive". Time to move on.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 4, 2020)

skiur said:


> Will they be testing at the door of the lodge?  Passing a test means nothing.  You can pass a test, leave the test room and get infected walking back to your car.  The antigen test is more important I would say but apparently that test has accuracy issues.  This ski season is going to suck.  Hopefully by the 21-22 season a few vaccines are out and it won't be an issue anymore.



Really and sadly well said. I feel similarly and am preparing mentally for it. 

I got my NY SKI3 a few days ago. I'll still somehow make the $760 investment worth it.


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 5, 2020)

smellytele said:


> you _*complain*_ a lot seeing you are done with az.[emoji1][emoji1598]
> 
> 
> sent from my iphone using alpinezone



fify


----------



## p_levert (Sep 5, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I know, right!  It's almost like he repeated something he _just_ recently heard. Contextually it's rather obviously wrong here too given I replied to precisely his claim, but I notice you didn't point that out.  As for the "bold" bit?  People on forums do that to highlight the portion of the text they're chiefly replying too.  _#InternetTipsForOldPeople_



FWIW, I am a programmer and maintain a website.  Not a young dude, but very capable of using the ignore feature.

You found a quick excuse for the fact that I find you obnoxious.  But, dude, it's not just me that has this opinion.  Just in the last couple of days there has been Hawk, JimG, Deadheadskier and ScottySkis, all have objected to your style or content.

You are far from the dumbest person who posts around here (we'll forget about "war in piece").  Your libertarian/Trumpy politics don't really appeal to me, but that's fine, you're not the only one.  But man you are an overwhelming know-it-all and distorter.

*Post less, be happy.*


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Sep 5, 2020)

p_levert said:


> FWIW, I am a programmer and maintain a website.  Not a young dude, but very capable of using the ignore feature.
> 
> You found a quick excuse for the fact that I find you obnoxious.  But, dude, it's not just me that has this opinion.  Just in the last couple of days there has been Hawk, JimG, Deadheadskier and ScottySkis, all have objected to your style or content.
> 
> ...



Wow really? You name 4 people, one who SUPPOSEDLY left AZ, 2 who are Mods, and Hawk... who is Hawk. Has good days and bad days, just like the rest of us. Out of....


> Members 18,935



Pretty large contingent there don't seem to be complaining. Just the usual complainers. Plus, it's still summer, so who the hell cares who is complaining. 

You complaining about people using Bold to draw others eyes to the text they wish to talk about is hilarious in a Pot meets Kettle way. 

:roll::roll::roll:


----------



## BenedictGomez (Sep 5, 2020)

p_levert said:


> *Post less, be happy.*



An odd maxim from a guy who with every other post is snifflely' whining or complaining.


----------



## JimG. (Sep 5, 2020)

Anyone buy a season pass lately?


----------



## jaytrem (Sep 5, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Out of....
> 
> 18,935 members



Now that's funny.  Remove the 1, the 8, and the 9, and then maybe you have the # of active members.  Probably a little high though.  Hopefully things pick up if we have a ski season.


----------



## Edd (Sep 5, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Anyone buy a season pass lately?



I’m heading into the season with unrealistic optimism and will try to roll with the punches. I’ve got the North Conway area dialed with season passes to Catitash, BW, and Cranmore. Mostly skiing weekdays so I’m hoping I can do last minute switches when things get weird. For quicker day trips, I’ve got passes to Gunstock, Sunapee, and Crotched. This’ll be my most New Hampshire-centric season ever. 

Like all of us, I feel screwed by last season closing early. I was on my best roll in years for ski days.


----------



## Not Sure (Sep 5, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Plus, it's still summer, so who the hell cares who is complaining.
> 
> 
> :roll::roll::roll:



Summer IS complaining season !!!!


----------



## JimG. (Sep 5, 2020)

Edd said:


> I’m heading into the season with unrealistic optimism and will try to roll with the punches. I’ve got the North Conway area dialed with season passes to Catitash, BW, and Cranmore. Mostly skiing weekdays so I’m hoping I can do last minute switches when things get weird. For quicker day trips, I’ve got passes to Gunstock, Sunapee, and Crotched. This’ll be my most New Hampshire-centric season ever.
> 
> Like all of us, I feel screwed by last season closing early. I was on my best roll in years for ski days.



I will be weekday skiing this coming season as well. Looking like mostly NY but still holding out hope I won't have to defer my K weekday pass to 21-22.


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## snoseek (Sep 5, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Anyone buy a season pass lately?



Epic military. I feel like I should get an indy to get some mellow days in and support the local places. 

I told my employer from january 3rd till mid aprilish I will only be available to work friday saturday and sunday and that I'll need the month of february off. I'm sure they'll figure it out, I've given them plenty of lead time.


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## jimk (Sep 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Anyone buy a season pass lately?



Planning to spend 3+ months in UT again, mostly at the Bird.


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## skinowworklater (Sep 6, 2020)

jimk said:


> Planning to spend 3+ months in UT again, mostly at the Bird.


Your my hero! I'll be content this Covid season with a week thank you.


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## icecoast1 (Sep 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Anyone buy a season pass lately?




debating adding the indy pass to my magic pass, probably going to be a good idea to spend more time at the smaller resorts this year than EPIC/IKONville


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## thebigo (Sep 6, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Anyone buy a season pass lately?



Four epic northeast, condo rented in MWV nov - apr. Likely going to add two black passes for Saturday's, depending on vails operating plans. Goal is to ski 7 days/week.


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## JimG. (Sep 6, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Goal is to ski 7 days/week.



Nice.


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## Zand (Sep 6, 2020)

Almost feel like I have to add on the Indy pass this year at this point. Getting to the point where I'm not holding my breath on VT and ME allowing MA residents to come to those states unquarantined. Will hang onto the Ikon but that only gets you Loon in NH which isn't great. Figure Indy would get me days at Cannon, Black, and Berkshire East. Plus could use it at Snow King during a Jackson trip. I feel like I'm going to be getting on a plane more often than I'm going to be driving northward this winter.


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## p_levert (Sep 6, 2020)

For the Ikoners, Eldora and Copper Mountain are going to require parking reservations:

https://www.eldora.com/culture/blog-and-news/blogs-and-news?page=5026

https://www.coppercolorado.com/plan...-winter-experience/parking-reservation-system

This seems a little awkward.  Particularly at Eldora, where lots of folks drive up early and leave by noon.  I wonder if the parking system will offer early/late sessions?


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 6, 2020)

You people blessed enough to be midweek skiers will have to inform me how well my prediction that midweek skiing will be more "crowded" than ever before, goes.


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## snoseek (Sep 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You people blessed enough to be midweek skiers will have to inform me how well my prediction that midweek skiing will be more "crowded" than ever before, goes.



There will be more people maybe but I doubt it will be all that bad. At least in northern nh.


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## thebigo (Sep 7, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> You people blessed enough to be midweek skiers will have to inform me how well my prediction that midweek skiing will be more "crowded" than ever before, goes.



I suspect wildcat will be slightly more crowded midweek but from an extremely low baseline. Currently crowded midweek means there is a single on the chair in front of you, majority of the time the chair in front and behind are empty. Even on milk or president day you wait max a few chairs. 

Saturday around 11:00 bluebird with fresh natural is the only time you will ever wait 5+ minutes for a chair. It will surely be different this year but with a half dozen ski areas within 30 minutes of town and several more on the significantly more accessible 93 side, the crowd disperses.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 7, 2020)

I don't believe midweek crowds will be appreciably bigger at most places.  Maybe a little bit for dawn patrol and bag off work early turns for those who live close to the mountains and now have more flexible WFH schedules. 

Ultimately the demographics of the sport is still dominated by families with M-F 9 to 5 jobs.  That doesn't change much with more WFH or kids participating in remote learning.

I spend every weekend on my boat on Winnipesaukee.  It's a really busy lake. Basically the Killington of lake destinations in New England. The handful of times I've gotten out midweek this summer it's been fairly quiet even on perfect weather days. This despite being easier for most families to take time off midweek during the summer.

I'd be shocked if the uptick in business midweek is more than 10% assuming a normal winter.  Now if it's a big snow year and much of the fresh comes midweek, perhaps it's a bit higher due to folks getting shut out on weekend reservations.



Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 7, 2020)

snoseek said:


> There will be more people maybe but *I doubt it will be all that bad.* At least in northern nh.



Yeah.  I didnt mean it would be over-run or anything.  I'm sure it will still be total bliss compared with weekends, I just meant that I have a feeling it will be noticeably more people.  The work-from-home boom alone should be responsible for allowing more people to ski midweek IMO.  We'll see how it pans out, but it's interesting I think.


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## jimk (Sep 7, 2020)

I live in the inner suburbs of Wash DC area.  There has been a *remarkable* downturn in local weekday commuting patterns due to huge numbers of people WFH.  Traffic intersections near me that were normally very backed-up during morning and evening rush hours are now much lighter than before covid.  I read that ridership on our subway system is down 90% from before.
Despite this, when I go out for frequent bike rides the local bike trails are mobbed on weekends and fairly empty on weekdays.  I'm not sure what to make of it.  Are all these people that are WFH really glued to their home work stations during the week???  And are all the kids around here that are staying home and doing virtual schooling this fall that dedicated too???  Doubtful?  Again, I don't know what to make of it.
It will be very interesting to see if our closer ski areas (equivalents to Wachusett) will be extra busy during the week or not this coming winter.  My guess is that on weekdays the ski slopes for the closer ski areas to urban areas might be a little busier than before, but not crazy busy.  The distant ones may continue to have very light skier numbers on weekdays.  Overall, I think skier traffic will be lighter than past winters.  Hopefully, not *way* lighter or our ski areas will suffer.


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## thebigo (Sep 7, 2020)

Does anyone golf? Has there been a shift to midweek?


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## snoseek (Sep 7, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Does anyone golf? Has there been a shift to midweek?



I work at a club. It really has been business as usual. Overall its maybe a little busier but the usual slow periods and evenings have been similar to any year.

Then again the local mtb trails have been super busy


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## ss20 (Sep 7, 2020)

jimk said:


> I read that ridership on our subway system is down 90% from before.
> Despite this, when I go out for frequent bike rides the local bike trails are mobbed on weekends and fairly empty on weekdays...
> 
> Overall, I think skier traffic will be lighter than past winters.  Hopefully, not *way* lighter or our ski areas will suffer.



I disagree with ski traffic being lighter.  It's an outdoor activity.  No direct comparison to winter BUT this summer...

The RV/camper market is the hottest its ever been.
Biking is off-the-hook (my local Walmart is still completely wiped out of bikes).
Beaches were packed like business-as-usual.  

I think overall visits will be flat.  For every person who's been barricaded inside their house and hasn't seen the light of day in a public place since March there's someone who will see booting up in the car and skiing as probably the safest thing you could possibly be doing right now.


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## Edd (Sep 7, 2020)

Gunstock’s ski shop had a Labor Day sale. Word is very long line out the door and they sold a ton. I agree about heavier crowds this year. COVID is going to make this winter suck I expect. I feel lucky to have skiing at my disposal.


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## jimk (Sep 7, 2020)

ss20 said:


> I disagree with ski traffic being lighter.  It's an outdoor activity.  No direct comparison to winter BUT this summer...
> 
> The RV/camper market is the hottest its ever been.
> Biking is off-the-hook (my local Walmart is still completely wiped out of bikes).
> ...





Edd said:


> Gunstock’s ski shop had a Labor Day sale. Word is very long line out the door and they sold a ton. I agree about heavier crowds this year. COVID is going to make this winter suck I expect. I feel lucky to have skiing at my disposal.



Maybe the crowds at day-tripper mtns will be strong, but I suspect destination resorts will see a down turn in skier-days because of concerns about using airplanes and hotels.


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## 2planks2coasts (Sep 8, 2020)

Zand said:


> Almost feel like I have to add on the Indy pass this year at this point. Getting to the point where I'm not holding my breath on VT and ME allowing MA residents to come to those states unquarantined. Will hang onto the Ikon but that only gets you Loon in NH which isn't great. Figure Indy would get me days at Cannon, Black, and Berkshire East. Plus could use it at Snow King during a Jackson trip. I feel like I'm going to be getting on a plane more often than I'm going to be driving northward this winter.



I'm getting an Indy pass as well, Seasonal rental in Campton, near WV. but I am hoping to squeeze at least 10 days out of Ikon base. 5 at Loon and if Grafton County, NH covid numbers hold steady, it will stay on the VT green list, meaning I can ski Sugarbush and Killington. 

If your county is unlikely to make the green list, maybe a Ski Cooper pass instead of Indy?   3 days each at Black, Whaleback, McIntyre and Dartmouth plus heaps of other resorts around the country including Snow King for $350


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## drjeff (Sep 8, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Does anyone golf? Has there been a shift to midweek?





snoseek said:


> I work at a club. It really has been business as usual. Overall its maybe a little busier but the usual slow periods and evenings have been similar to any year.
> 
> Then again the local mtb trails have been super busy



I golf quite a bit, and short of the different rules that each state and club has now about what you can/can't do with the flagstick and other items such as bunker rakes, divot mix boxes, water coolers on course and ball washers, it's really close to the same now, and in particular for the course that I belong to, we've picked up just under 50 new members this season and the course has had more play than I have ever seen in the close to 15 years that I've been a member.

As for the random rules that I've seen, my course is in CT, in the town in the Northeast Corner of the state that borders both RI and MA. For my course, since mid June, we have been able to take the flagsticks out, there is no pool noodle in the cup to prevent the ball from going to the bottom of the cup, with have bunker rakes in all the bunkers and both bottles of divot mix to carry with you as well as boxes of divot mix at each tee marker on our par 3's. We don't have the ball washers out (no biggie) or the multiple water jugs that are usually spread around the course (that's been the #1 thing most of us are missing at my club for sure).  

Now if I go 3 miles East into RI or 5 miles North into MA to play, You can't touch the flagstick, there are pool noodles in the cup to prevent the ball from going to the bottom of the cup, no bunker rakes are out on the course, no divot mix available anywhere, no ball washers or water jugs either. This has also applied when I have played in VT at the courses at Stratton, Mount Snow and the Hermitage over the last month or so.

When I have been playing not at my home course, the courses have seemed to certainly not be lacking in volume of play. Some courses have had beverage carts out, some haven't.  And honestly when I played at the Mount Snow course this past weekend, while the course was in very good shape, with the greens rolling as fast and true as I have ever seen them in the 15 or so years I have been playing there a few times a year, Vail in its operations plan for it this Summer had the most "restricted" feel to operations of any course that I have played this Summer.


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## jaytrem (Sep 8, 2020)

drjeff said:


> And honestly when I played at the Mount Snow course this past weekend, while the course was in very good shape, with the greens rolling as fast and true as I have ever seen them in the 15 or so years I have been playing there a few times a year, Vail in its operations plan for it this Summer had the most "restricted" feel to operations of any course that I have played this Summer.



Not exactly following the quarantine rules eh?  Didn't look like many other people were either.


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## drjeff (Sep 8, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Not exactly following the quarantine rules eh?  Didn't look like many other people were either.



I actually live in a "yellow" on the VT map last week, so my family and I hadn't dome anything more than go to work and back home the previous week, and we all had had negative tests withing the last week (kids were tested prior to one of their only day back on their highschool campus and my wife and I get tested bi-weekly for work purposes these days), so while not verbatim to the "yellow county" travel restrictions we were pretty close ;-) . Now some of the other folks who we saw this weekend up in the Valley, they weren't playing by the quarantine rules for sure.  

I figure that many a second home owner, will likely be getting more requests from their skiing/riding friends this winter, if the same red, yellow, green county VT has now system is in place this winter and they want to stay over, since apparently the hotels are required to check where folks are traveling in from to make sure it's OK for them to stay.  That's something a second homeowner won't have to worry about, as even my condo association is reminding owners about it, and telling us that enforcement is on the "honor system" as of now atleast....


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## mikec142 (Sep 8, 2020)

drjeff said:


> since apparently the hotels are required to check where folks are traveling in from to make sure it's OK for them to stay.



Can you explain more about this?  I live in a NJ town that hasn't had a case in several weeks, but the county certainly has.  If I can't travel to VT and stay in a hotel or airbnb, I might as well hang up the skis for the season.


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## cdskier (Sep 8, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Can you explain more about this?  I live in a NJ town that hasn't had a case in several weeks, but the county certainly has.  If I can't travel to VT and stay in a hotel or airbnb, I might as well hang up the skis for the season.



https://accd.vermont.gov/covid-19/restart/cross-state-travel

VT updates the map every Friday with which counties are "safe". Right now NJ only has 1 green county (seems to flip flop between Warren and Sussex every couple weeks). If you live in a green county, it is safe to travel to VT with no further restrictions related to quarantine. If you don't live in a green county and still want to go to VT, then you need to quarantine at home for 14 days before traveling to VT or quarantine for 7 days at home and then have a negative covid test.


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## jaytrem (Sep 8, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I actually live in a "yellow" on the VT map last week



Aren't the Yellow and Red restrictions the same?  We were Green for a bit, but now back to Yellow.


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## jaytrem (Sep 8, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> Can you explain more about this?  I live in a NJ town that hasn't had a case in several weeks, but the county certainly has.  If I can't travel to VT and stay in a hotel or airbnb, I might as well hang up the skis for the season.



You should probably change your plans to NH or NY.  It doesn't take much to make the VT naughty list.


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## drjeff (Sep 8, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Aren't the Yellow and Red restrictions the same?  We were Green for a bit, but now back to Yellow.



Yup, seems that way now. If I recall, and I may be 100% wrong on this, yellow used to be where you could quarantine in your home state for 7 days and then with a negative test before going to VT without restrictions, and red was a straight up 14 day quarantine upon arrival. Now it sure appears that either option is acceptable.


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## mikec142 (Sep 8, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> You should probably change your plans to NH or NY.  It doesn't take much to make the VT naughty list.



My Ikon pass isn't so great in NY and NH is pretty far from me.  This could be ugly.


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## p_levert (Sep 8, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> My Ikon pass isn't so great in NY and NH is pretty far from me.  This could be ugly.



Indy Pass!

What remains to be seen is how this will play out with daytrippers.  Killington is full of those.


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## jaytrem (Sep 8, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> My Ikon pass isn't so great in NY and NH is pretty far from me.  This could be ugly.



Is it possible to cancel or defer?  If so I'd wait til the last minute to make a decision.  

I guess I'll be buying the Epic.  At least I'd have Hunter and some PA stuff if VT doesn't work.


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## cdskier (Sep 8, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> Is it possible to cancel or defer?  If so I'd wait til the last minute to make a decision.
> 
> I guess I'll be buying the Epic.  At least I'd have Hunter and some PA stuff if VT doesn't work.



As long as you don't use Ikon, you can pretty much wait as long as you want to choose to defer (they're giving you until April 11th to decide).


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 8, 2020)

I live in a yellow county that has fewer COVID19 cases than some Vermont counties. 

But I dont think Vermont is restricting those Vermonters who live in what would be numerically yellow counties from going to other Vermont counties for leisure.


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## thebigo (Sep 8, 2020)

> Vermont counties are exempt from travel restrictions.



Per vt quarantine map page.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 8, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Per vt quarantine map page.




COVID19 is extremely serious, but alienating voters is extremely serious'er.


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## skimagic (Sep 9, 2020)

It's September, time to start thinking about passes. Anyone know why epic is not listing Mount Snow hunter or Okemo on their Northeast passes?


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## cdskier (Sep 9, 2020)

skimagic said:


> It's September, time to start thinking about passes. Anyone know why epic is not listing Mount Snow hunter or Okemo on their Northeast passes?



They're listed...but as holiday restricted.


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## sull1102 (Sep 9, 2020)

p_levert said:


> Indy Pass!
> 
> What remains to be seen is how this will play out with daytrippers.  Killington is full of those.



After moving back home to the Boston area before last season I've become a K day tripper, but this season I'll be spending my money in NH in all likelihood. Besides the whole pretend 14-day quarantine thing(willing to bet that the vast majority of people going up have some workaround or story ready to go if questioned), there's the attitude from everyone up there that seems to be solely based on the license plate on your car. NH seems to have almost none of that going on. I know I am far from alone amongst my friends and work colleagues that day trip midweek for most of the season.


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## skef (Sep 9, 2020)

Sign of the times: Loon introduces mid-week only pass (with blackouts): https://www.loonmtn.com/season-passes


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## zyk (Sep 9, 2020)

Vail / Epic have been unresponsive for either by phone or email...  My brother and I put down the $50 in March to lock in the early rate however we both realized we have no use for the pass this year.  Having no way to contact Epic I cancelled my credit card so they can't automatically charge me for the balance...  Not sure if anyone else has experienced this problem


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## steve22 (Sep 9, 2020)

Loon announced two new pass products today after having suspended pass sales earlier in this pandemic.

https://www.loonmtn.com/season-passes?

I already have a LTD pass so I am encouraged to see the note about their goal to not require reservations for pass holders.


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## 2planks2coasts (Sep 9, 2020)

skef said:


> Sign of the times: Loon introduces mid-week only pass (with blackouts): https://www.loonmtn.com/season-passes



At a higher price point ($589) than the Cannon Midweek Bold & Beautiful pass  that also is good at Bretton Woods ($429).


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## JimG. (Sep 9, 2020)

steve22 said:


> I already have a LTD pass so I am encouraged to see the note about their goal to not require reservations for pass holders.



This should be the main goal of EVERY ski area.


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## Edd (Sep 9, 2020)

2planks2coasts said:


> At a higher price point ($589) than the Cannon Midweek Bold & Beautiful pass  that also is good at Bretton Woods ($429).



B&B is the clear winner there.


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## urungus (Sep 9, 2020)

skimagic said:


> It's September, time to start thinking about passes. Anyone know why epic is not listing Mount Snow hunter or Okemo on their Northeast passes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For an additional $130, the Epic Local Pass includes unrestricted access to Mt Snow, Hunter, and Okemo.  And also goes from 10 days at Stowe to unrestricted except holidays.


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## cdskier (Sep 9, 2020)

urungus said:


> For an additional $130, the Epic Local Pass includes unrestricted access to Mt Snow, Hunter, and Okemo.  And also goes from 10 days at Stowe to unrestricted except holidays.



Yea...and I think that pricing and strategy makes sense. Giving away full access to all of Epic's northeastern resorts for the price of the Northeast "Value Pass" would have been insanely cheap. So essentially making a few of their more in-demand resorts "premium" and making you upgrade to the Epic Local if you want more unrestricted access makes sense.


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## 2planks2coasts (Sep 9, 2020)

Edd said:


> B&B is the clear winner there.



Agreed.  Though I hope Tenney is open weekdays. If so, that's where I will be.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 10, 2020)

JimG. said:


> This should be the main goal of EVERY ski area.



I think every ski area that doesn't sell eleventy-billion season passes to zillions of people who arent really season pass holders in the traditional sense of the word can probably operate that way.  I see it as more of an EPIC & IKON problem.


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## mbedle (Sep 10, 2020)

zyk said:


> Vail / Epic have been unresponsive for either by phone or email...  My brother and I put down the $50 in March to lock in the early rate however we both realized we have no use for the pass this year.  Having no way to contact Epic I cancelled my credit card so they can't automatically charge me for the balance...  Not sure if anyone else has experienced this problem



Thats odd because the refunded all deposits for every pass holder. Are you should you didn't miss the return on a statement?


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## machski (Sep 10, 2020)

Edd said:


> B&B is the clear winner there.


You are .issuing part of Loon's point.  They are not trying to win the value proposition, they are pricing to limit pass sales.  Anyone who really wants a Loon pass has an option, but they would probably be fine with selling very few of these 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## JimG. (Sep 10, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I see it as more of an EPIC & IKON problem.



We agree.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2020)

Well except Loon is one of the very busiest and densely packed ski areas in the East with a four person gondola as the main lift out of the base area.

If there's any mountain in the East where I think reservations would be needed and fill quickly, it's Loon. 

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## drjeff (Sep 10, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Well except Loon is one of the very busiest and densely packed ski areas in the East with a four person gondola as the main lift out of the base area.
> 
> If there's any mountain in the East where I think reservations would be needed and fill quickly, it's Loon.
> 
> Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app



I bet that they're wishing that there was some sort of feasible way (both financially as well as installation logistically with a certain completion time frame) that the new Kanc 8 pack could of been good to go for this coming season to help get folks out of their, even with reduced seating on it, it would likely make a difference at some of the lines likely to be there this season...


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## skef (Sep 10, 2020)

The Kanc doesn't go to the summit. What I hope they'll do is run the East Basin chair (much) more often than they usually do. It goes to the summit, and in open air... (And, hey, without the '8, the lines will be shorter!)


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## machski (Sep 10, 2020)

drjeff said:


> I bet that they're wishing that there was some sort of feasible way (both financially as well as installation logistically with a certain completion time frame) that the new Kanc 8 pack could of been good to go for this coming season to help get folks out of their, even with reduced seating on it, it would likely make a difference at some of the lines likely to be there this season...


Wouldn't help by itself.  If they flipped the old Kanc to Seven Bros, that may have helped.  Still, increasing out of base seats still bottlenecks as there are only 2 upper mountain lifts on hill, a double and a HSQ.  Loon cannot move folks around and spread them out very easily.  The bed base has far outstripped the mountain's carrying capacity.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Sep 10, 2020)

machski said:


> Wouldn't help by itself.  If they flipped the old Kanc to Seven Bros, that may have helped.  Still, increasing out of base seats still bottlenecks as there are only 2 upper mountain lifts on hill, a double and a HSQ.  Loon cannot move folks around and spread them out very easily.  The bed base has far outstripped the mountain's carrying capacity.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app


Agreed

There is considerable acreage between some of the trails on South Peak.  They could probably add 3 or 4 more trails over there quite easily.  That would be my plan there and bump up to a higher capacity chair.  Move the HSQ over to replace the Gondola.  Add bubbles if you really need the summer use flexibility. 

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## asnowmobiler (Sep 10, 2020)

I just received an email from Epic saying I have $119 credit toward any eligible pass. The strange part is, I never had one of their passes, so I don't know why I was given the credit.
After they posted their plan for this year, I decided told wait till next year to get an Epic pass, now I may just get it this year as I had planned.


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## Smellytele (Sep 10, 2020)

asnowmobiler said:


> I just received an email from Epic saying I have $119 credit toward any eligible pass. The strange part is, I never had one of their passes, so I don't know why I was given the credit.
> After they posted their plan for this year, I decided told wait till next year to get an Epic pass, now I may just get it this year as I had planned.



Did you get a day ticket at any epic mtn? If so then you were eligible for a credit


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## asnowmobiler (Sep 10, 2020)

Yep, one week before everything got shut down.
 I never read into it much, thinking it was just for Season Pass holders. This is the first time they reached out to with this offer, glad I waited. Now get Epic or my local hill, it’s a tough choice right now.
Truth be said, the whole uncertainty has kept me from getting too excited about this season.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 11, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Well except *Loon is one of the very busiest and densely packed ski areas in the East with a four person gondola as the main lift out of the base area.*



Yikes; stay the hell away from Loon this season.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 11, 2020)

I stay the hell away from Loon on weekends virtually every season.  They can do North of 400k skier visits on a good year and the terrain acreage is about half that of a Mt Snow or Okemo. 

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## Edd (Sep 11, 2020)

I almost never say this about any ski area but I’m pretty much done with Loon. I’ve had too many “meh” days there. A big part of that is due to Loon’s popularity but Mt. Snow is a better experience to me, and that is one popular mountain. 


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## Smellytele (Sep 12, 2020)

I just bought 3 indy passes. 1 for the wife, 1 for my 17 yo and one for me. Noticed they were offering a 20 bucks option that if you didn't use a single day you would get your money back. I think their “The Get America Skiing Promise” gets rid of that and they should remove it. Also what ever they use for [FONT=proxima-nova, helvetica neue, Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]eCommerce[/FONT] sucks as it is slow and locks up every time you click on something​


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## Newpylong (Sep 13, 2020)

The big problem with Loon is its popularity due to proximity to 93. I've had quite a few good days there when it wasn't busy.

They can't move people up the hill fast enough.


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## Smellytele (Sep 13, 2020)

Newpylong said:


> The big problem with Loon is its popularity due to proximity to 93. I've had quite a few good days there when it wasn't busy.
> 
> They can't move people up the hill fast enough.



The big problem as someone had said is too many condos. Cannon has even an easier access off 93 but is no where as crowded(I understand it is another 15 minutes north of Loon).


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## p_levert (Sep 13, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> I just bought 3 indy passes. 1 for the wife, 1 for my 17 yo and one for me. Noticed they were offering a 20 bucks option that if you didn't use a single day you would get your money back. I think their “The Get America Skiing Promise” gets rid of that and they should remove it. Also what ever they use for [FONT=proxima-nova, helvetica neue, Helvetica, Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]eCommerce[/FONT] sucks as it is slow and locks up every time you click on something​



The $20 for "Pass Protection Program: Get the full purchase price back if you aren't able to use a single day before 4/30/21" is odd, because the "Get America Skiing Promise" does offer the same thing, more or less.  I would say the ""Pass Protection Program ($20)" sounds like an unrestricted refund, while "Get America Skiing" offers a $20 credit towards 21/22.  But, I agree, it's confusing.


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## dlague (Sep 13, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The big problem as someone had said is too many condos. Cannon has even an easier access off 93 but is no where as crowded(I understand it is another 15 minutes north of Loon).



I used to work the ski show for The Ride and Ski Card and Loon has a stigma about it with people from the Boston area.  Loon has the condos as mentioned earlier and the town.  Cannon has a bad wrap for some reason compared to Loon - wind no base lodging, no ski town?  I did not mind since we had Cannon Season Passes.


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## granite (Sep 13, 2020)

Cannon is for skiers, everyday.  Loon and Waterville Valley are both for Boston on weekends and holidays, I won't go to either of them during those times. Loon is great mid-week if you want to get a lot of vertical on groomers off of high speed lifts.  Loon does have one of the best après-ski bars around though, the Bunyan Room.


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## dlague (Sep 13, 2020)

I got a comp from the ski show and got to ski Loon once - it was a dated comp and it felt like the busiest day stayed at mid mount to get away from lines but the whole place got skied off quickly - never wanted to go back.


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## granite (Sep 13, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The big problem as someone had said is too many condos. Cannon has even an easier access off 93 but is no where as crowded(I understand it is another 15 minutes north of Loon).



Love Cannon access. One hour and 15 minutes for me to get to the Tram Station. Boot up and I'm at the summit in no time.  I'm going to miss the Tram this winter if it doesn't run.


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## Puck it (Sep 13, 2020)

granite said:


> Love Cannon access. One hour and 15 minutes for me to get to the Tram Station. Boot up and I'm at the summit in no time.  I'm going to miss the Tram this winter if it doesn't run.




4 minutes now if we are allowed to park there.


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## jaytrem (Sep 13, 2020)

I guess I'm going with at least the Indy Pass.  Still hesitant to buy the Epic, but probably will.  Pulled the trigger on Bozeman flights in late late Feb.  Only 25k miles for non-stop round trip.  If all goes well I'll use the Indy Pass for 2 days at Red Lodge and 2 days at Terry Peak.  Then will hit the smaller WY places on the way back.  Been wanting to do this trip for ages, but was waiting for Antelope Butte to reopen.  With Sleeping Giant threatening to close I figure I better get it done soon.  Should also be able to get 2 half days at Bridger at the beginning and end.  Who knows if the trip will really happen, but at least I have something to look forward to.


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## granite (Sep 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> 4 minutes now if we are allowed to park there.



Would like to see Cannon set up an outdoor area to boot up at the bottom of Zoomer.  Would be great for business at the Zoomer bar too!


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## Puck it (Sep 14, 2020)

granite said:


> Would like to see Cannon set up an outdoor area to boot up at the bottom of Zoomer.  Would be great for business at the Zoomer bar too!


  SHHHHHHHHH!  It is suppose to be a secret.


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## thebigo (Sep 14, 2020)

granite said:


> Would like to see Cannon set up an outdoor area to boot up at the bottom of Zoomer.  Would be great for business at the Zoomer bar too!



I have been looking for a rigid folding bench to store in my truck. There is a reason every ski area bench is either wood or rigid plastic, booting up on a folding canvas chair will suck.

Edit: Never mind - dont why I didnt think of this sooner. A couple metal folding chairs will be perfect.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 14, 2020)

thebigo said:


> I have been looking for a *rigid folding bench to store in my truck.* There is a reason every ski area bench is either wood or rigid plastic, booting up on a folding canvas chair will suck.



A portable workbench will do the trick.   I go this one on sale for $90 & it's plenty strong enough.   Folds down or up in less than 5 seconds.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 14, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> A portable workbench will do the trick.   I go this one on sale for $90 & it's plenty strong enough.   Folds down or up in less than 5 seconds.


To sit on for putting boots on? Do they adjust down to chair height?

Sent from my motorola one action using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Sep 14, 2020)

I've been booting up at my car for years (never liked leaving anything in the lodge) so I'm well prepared for this change this season.


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## p_levert (Sep 14, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> I guess I'm going with at least the Indy Pass.  Still hesitant to buy the Epic, but probably will.  Pulled the trigger on Bozeman flights in late late Feb.  Only 25k miles for non-stop round trip.  If all goes well I'll use the Indy Pass for 2 days at Red Lodge and 2 days at Terry Peak.  Then will hit the smaller WY places on the way back.  Been wanting to do this trip for ages, but was waiting for Antelope Butte to reopen.  With Sleeping Giant threatening to close I figure I better get it done soon.  Should also be able to get 2 half days at Bridger at the beginning and end.  Who knows if the trip will really happen, but at least I have something to look forward to.



Sounds like a really cool trip.  But I am a little surprised at the detour over to Terry Peak.  Is that place really worth the drive?


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## dlague (Sep 14, 2020)

Puck it said:


> SHHHHHHHHH!  It is suppose to be a secret.



I will spread the word 


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## mikec142 (Sep 14, 2020)

I do one of those hopping, balancing acts to boot up in the lot.  If I'm just driving back to the hotel I'll wear my ski clothes (or even if I'm driving from the catskills to home), but if I'm driving back to NJ from VT I'll do the quick change in the car in the lot.  Although having a few of those folding canvas chairs might be a good thing at this point for lunch or Apres. 

Assuming that I ski (I'd certainly like to), I'm more concerned about my wife and two teenage daughters than I am about me.  I can pee in the woods and eat a PBJ in the car or on the side of a trail.  Can also take quick warming breaks in the car.  The trick will be to be able to park in a lot that's close enough to the base that I don't have to walk too far to get to the car.  For me, not ideal, but totally doable.  Not sure how much my kids will enjoy the outdoor bathroom thing...

The other thing is my wife barely skis these days.  Mostly prefers to bring her laptop and/or a book and park herself in the lodge.  Can't imagine that will happen at all even if it's allowed.  She's either going to have to stay at the hotel or airbnb.  I feel like lodging is going to cost me more this season than ever before.  I was always ready to "rough" it because we weren't in the room much other than to sleep and shower.  But now...


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## dlague (Sep 14, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I've been booting up at my car for years (never liked leaving anything in the lodge) so I'm well prepared for this change this season.



In Colorado now where almost everyone boots up at their vehicles.  Back east we carried a boot bag into the lodge but booted up at the car on comfortable days.  Indoor will likely not happen this year. 

I think the fundamental difference between here and New England are the temps.  As you all know it can get darn right cold on some days where here down right cold is like 10 degrees or higher even.  Makes booting up at the car feasible.


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## dlague (Sep 14, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I do one of those hopping, balancing acts to boot up in the lot.  If I'm just driving back to the hotel I'll wear my ski clothes (or even if I'm driving from the catskills to home), but if I'm driving back to NJ from VT I'll do the quick change in the car in the lot.  Although having a few of those folding canvas chairs might be a good thing at this point for lunch or Apres.
> 
> Assuming that I ski (I'd certainly like to), I'm more concerned about my wife and two teenage daughters than I am about me.  I can pee in the woods and eat a PBJ in the car or on the side of a trail.  Can also take quick warming breaks in the car.  The trick will be to be able to park in a lot that's close enough to the base that I don't have to walk too far to get to the car.  For me, not ideal, but totally doable.  Not sure how much my kids will enjoy the outdoor bathroom thing...
> 
> The other thing is my wife barely skis these days.  Mostly prefers to bring her laptop and/or a book and park herself in the lodge.  Can't imagine that will happen at all even if it's allowed.  She's either going to have to stay at the hotel or airbnb.  I feel like lodging is going to cost me more this season than ever before.  I was always ready to "rough" it because we weren't in the room much other than to sleep and shower.  But now...



You bring up a good point!  We have friends that would share time taking care of children that were to little to ski and hang out in the lodge.  Even parents with younger kids that do ski often do not have the endurance of a teen or adult.  Those situations will be tough to manage if at all.

I remember skiing at BW and they place was loaded with lodge rats holding down tables. That will not be feasible I would imagine.

What about ski teams that would take up whole floors and have shit everywhere.  I would imagine that too will not be feasible!

Ski areas will have lots to handle.  Pisativity levels will increase for sure.


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## Edd (Sep 14, 2020)

dlague said:


> I remember skiing at BW and they place was loaded with lodge rats holding down tables. That will not be feasible I would imagine.
> 
> What about ski teams that would take up whole floors and have shit everywhere.  I would imagine that too will not be feasible!



Hey, something good from COVID!


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## jimk (Sep 14, 2020)

dlague said:


> In Colorado now where almost everyone boots up at their vehicles.  Back east we carried a boot bag into the lodge but booted up at the car on comfortable days.  Indoor will likely not happen this year.
> 
> I think the fundamental difference between here and New England are the temps.  As you all know it can get darn right cold on some days where here down right cold is like 10 degrees or higher even.  Makes booting up at the car feasible.
> 
> ...



Same thing about the two places I ski the most these days, the mid-Atlantic and Utah.  And a cool morning in UT when it might be 10 degs, feels warmer, like 25 degs back East.  I ski about 30-50 days per winter in recent years and probably experience a bitter cold ski day only once or twice a season.  So operating out of my car and not using a lodge is generally not a problem.  But I feel for those who usually ski in cold, harsh conditions for 20 or 30% of their ski days.  

Will ski areas in New England erect open air tents with patio heaters to make outdoor booting-up or quick food breaks a bit more comfortable?


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## jimmywilson69 (Sep 14, 2020)

Rolled 2 epic local and an college epic local for my son.  If I only end up skiing at my home mountain, 4 miles away, here in central PA then so be it.  Hopefully I can get out west and up north somewhere.


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## jaytrem (Sep 14, 2020)

p_levert said:


> Sounds like a really cool trip.  But I am a little surprised at the detour over to Terry Peak.  Is that place really worth the drive?



Of course it is, what a silly question!  Everybody knows South Dakota has the best skiing!

Hopefully I'll find out if it's worth the drive.  Probably is for me, maybe not so much for others.  Have had some of my best days at out of the way places that are a pain to get to.


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## SIKSKIER (Sep 16, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> The big problem as someone had said is too many condos. Cannon has even an easier access off 93 but is no where as crowded(I understand it is another 15 minutes north of Loon).



Its really not 15 minutes more than Loon.By the time you go through town its maybe 5 minutes more as you know you exit right to the parking lot at Cannon.


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## Jcb890 (Sep 16, 2020)

For EPIC, does anyone know if you can roll over your credit to 21/22 rather than 20/21? Of course, it's impossible to get ahold of anyone at Epic. I've tried multiple times over the past couple of months with zero responses. Awesome customer service, really. What a shitshow.


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## jaytrem (Sep 16, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> For EPIC, does anyone know if you can roll over your credit to 21/22 rather than 20/21? Of course, it's impossible to get ahold of anyone at Epic. I've tried multiple times over the past couple of months with zero responses. Awesome customer service, really. What a shitshow.



I seem to recall that you cannot.  But not 100% sure.


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## machski (Sep 16, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> For EPIC, does anyone know if you can roll over your credit to 21/22 rather than 20/21? Of course, it's impossible to get ahold of anyone at Epic. I've tried multiple times over the past couple of months with zero responses. Awesome customer service, really. What a shitshow.


You are talking credit from last season (19-20) towards a pass purchase this season?  Not directly, no.  You could use and buy a pass this season and not use and roll this passes credit forward, but any unused credit from last year's pass is only good this year is my understanding.

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## Jcb890 (Sep 16, 2020)

machski said:


> You are talking credit from last season (19-20) towards a pass purchase this season?  Not directly, no.  You could use and buy a pass this season and not use and roll this passes credit forward, but any unused credit from last year's pass is only good this year is my understanding.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


I think you guys are right.
I think we'd need to buy a 20/21 pass and then not use it by 12/8/20 I believe it is and then cancel/roll over to next season. Basically, I need to loan my money to EPIC for 2 years if I want to go that route.


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## jaytrem (Sep 16, 2020)

Jcb890 said:


> I think you guys are right.
> I think we'd need to buy a 20/21 pass and then not use it by 12/8/20 I believe it is and then cancel/roll over to next season. Basically, I need to loan my money to EPIC for 2 years if I want to go that route.



At least that's somewhat of a loophole.  Do you need to have a legit reason to cancel?  So many new rules I can't remember which way is up.


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## Jcb890 (Sep 16, 2020)

jaytrem said:


> At least that's somewhat of a loophole.  Do you need to have a legit reason to cancel?  So many new rules I can't remember which way is up.


Early on, EPIC was making it so you had to have an injury or the season had to be canceled/cut short due to COVID. IKON, meanwhile, had stated from the beginning that anyone could roll over from 20/21 to 21/22 for any reason. EPIC's latest response I believe was to adopt the same policy as IKON - if you haven't booked anything or used pass by 12/8, you are able to get a refund/credit. Or maybe just a credit and not a refund, I'd have to re-read.

I hate to let the credit go unused, but I do not want to basically let EPIC hold onto my money for 2 years.

Personally, I already have an injury I'm recovering from (broken back 1/17 at Mt. Snow and surgery 2/20), so my season is a pipe dream right now. I honestly don't think my body will be ready until late season at best. I think I'd like to get back on snow though and not give up the sport, even after my injuries.
My wife is high-risk (kidney problems) and so this season looks like a wash for her - how can we ride all day or travel 2+ hours to a mountain and not use their restrooms, etc.? I also have zero faith in the mountains to actually control social distancing while in lift lines. That's just not going to happen. Lift ops can't manage the line properly without social distancing and COVID.
I just don't see how resort skiing/riding right now is at all feasible for high-risk people. Unfortunately, just part of the COVID world we live in right now - we're not willing to risk her health unnecessarily with her being high risk.


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## JimG. (Sep 18, 2020)

So, after breaking my brain reading the Sugarbush and COVID-19 threads I just got my Plattekill season pass to go along with my NY SKI3. 

I may wind up using my Killington midweek pass as well as a hedge against Cuomo shutting everything down in NY. But VT is making thinking about skiing in VT this coming season way too complicated. Not what skiing is all about.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 18, 2020)

JimG. said:


> So, after breaking my brain reading the Sugarbush and COVID-19 threads *I just got my Plattekill season pass *to go along with my NY SKI3.



I dont get that, how do you make a Platty season pass work financially?  Not trolling you, as I'm sure you know you've read my thoughts on this before, but you have to be DEDICATED to Platty hardcore (and be naive to any alternative discounts) to make that work.  That said, big congrats to you for skiing mighty Platty more this year.  (> the place!  I just think their SP price is nuts (or I'd be a pass holder).


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## JimG. (Sep 18, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> I dont get that, how do you make a Platty season pass work financially?  Not trolling you, as I'm sure you know you've read my thoughts on this before, but you have to be DEDICATED to Platty hardcore (and be naive to any alternative discounts) to make that work.  That said, big congrats to you for skiing mighty Platty more this year.  (> the place!  I just think their SP price is nuts (or I'd be a pass holder).



Yeah the pass is expensive. But I need a weekend place to ski if I limit myself to NY for the season. The SKI3 areas are all going to be stupid crowded on weekends. So the Platty pass makes total sense to me in that scenario. 

Before this season I would never have considered buying a Platty pass because it is so expensive, especially problematic since the place is only open 3 days a week. Even more an issue since I am retired. Then COVID happened and I realized if I don't take the Platty plunge this year I never will.

I'm not a skiing discount shopper; deals and discounts are irrelevant to me. Since I bought a K midweek pass instead of a full season pass the price difference worked out to a Platty pass this year. If I defer that K pass to 21-22 (not a given) I will pay less for passes than last season. That's about as far as I go with financial analysis of the situation.

I'm blessed to not have to worry about spending the money.


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## Pez (Sep 19, 2020)

I bought a Butternut season pass for a discount price of $249.  That at least covers me for the season with somewhere to go in my own state.  I probably should have gotten something at Berkshire East because that place never gets crowded, but the deal was too good to pass up.

I also bought an Epic North East pass, also because I could get that on a discount.  Not sure if I'll be able to use it, but with my current work scheduled it made sense to at least try.


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## JimG. (Sep 19, 2020)

Pez said:


> I bought a Butternut season pass for a discount price of $249.  That at least covers me for the season with somewhere to go in my own state.  I probably should have gotten something at Berkshire East because that place never gets crowded, but the deal was too good to pass up.
> 
> I also bought an Epic North East pass, also because I could get that on a discount.  Not sure if I'll be able to use it, but with my current work scheduled it made sense to at least try.



Two other places I will ski this season...Butternut and Catamount. Haven't been skiing at either place for decades.


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## Killingtime (Sep 19, 2020)

JimG. said:


> Two other places I will ski this season...Butternut and Catamount. Haven't been skiing at either place for decades.



Had a good time at Catamount last year using Indy days. The new owners did a lot of work to it. I'll definitely go back again this year. Its a shame their nice new lodge may sit empty this year.


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## Zand (Sep 20, 2020)

I'm still on the fence on what to do this year. I feel like I need to supplement the Ikon in the event that Vermont never loosens its restrictions but I know as soon as I buy another pass then they'll do just that. Indy pass seems like a good deal but wish there were one or two more good NH places on it like Ragged or Bretton Woods as insurance.

Feel like 95% of my Ikon use will be out west because Loon will be a madhouse and that might be the only place in the east accessible to me. Getting my money's worth wont be hard considering western prices, but it will suck not getting many days in here. Was gonna avoid Wachusett this year but idk, might have to bite that bullet.


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## urungus (Sep 20, 2020)

Pez said:


> I bought a Butternut season pass for a discount price of $249.  That at least covers me for the season with somewhere to go in my own state.  I probably should have gotten something at Berkshire East because that place never gets crowded, but the deal was too good to pass up.



Berkshire East pass is also good at Catamount and Bosquet (so you would have 3 places in Massachusetts to ski), and also allows you to purchase the Indy Pass “add on” for only $129


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## machski (Sep 20, 2020)

Zand said:


> I'm still on the fence on what to do this year. I feel like I need to supplement the Ikon in the event that Vermont never loosens its restrictions but I know as soon as I buy another pass then they'll do just that. Indy pass seems like a good deal but wish there were one or two more good NH places on it like Ragged or Bretton Woods as insurance.
> 
> Feel like 95% of my Ikon use will be out west because Loon will be a madhouse and that might be the only place in the east accessible to me. Getting my money's worth wont be hard considering western prices, but it will suck not getting many days in here. Was gonna avoid Wachusett this year but idk, might have to bite that bullet.


Doubt Loon is quite the "madhouse" you are envisioning given they will be severely limiting day tickets and Ikon passholders will need to make reservations (this they will limit those guests as well).  Might actually be a great year to ski Loon.

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## 180 (Sep 21, 2020)

For me the K 365 with the included IKON Base was a no brainier. 
Golf, Bike & ski plus IKON


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## boston_e (Sep 21, 2020)

180 said:


> For me the K 365 with the included IKON Base was a no brainier.
> Golf, Bike & ski plus IKON



It is a great deal.  Would have done this for the whole family had it not been for COVID and everything that comes with it (travel restrictions etc etc.)  Next year hopefully.


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## JimG. (Sep 21, 2020)

boston_e said:


> It is a great deal.  Would have done this for the whole family had it not been for COVID and everything that comes with it (travel restrictions etc etc.)  Next year hopefully.



It was my plan as well.


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## drjeff (Sep 21, 2020)

Epic may be waivering on the full reservation system for the entire season....

https://snowbrains.com/vail-resorts-lift-reservations-system-if-unnecessary/

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app


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## njdiver85 (Sep 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Epic may be waivering on the full reservation system for the entire season....
> 
> The man should do more than waiver.  He should be apologizing profusely and fixing this. It's quite easy - give more priority reservations to passholders.  Seven is simply NOT enough if you are planning three big ski trips and want to have a guarantee when you book your flights, hotels, etc that you will be able to ski.  Katz gave the middle finger to every single passholder with his 7 priority days BS.


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## ss20 (Sep 21, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Epic may be waivering on the full reservation system for the entire season....
> 
> https://snowbrains.com/vail-resorts-lift-reservations-system-if-unnecessary/
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



It's not needed at 90% of their properties on 90% of operating days.  Keep it in place for Mount Snow, Vail, Breck, etc on mid-season weekends.  And passholders should be able to reserve anytime.

What they implemented was just gargantuan overkill.  Not saying it isn't needed in certain scenerios...but making a reservation to ski on a Thursday at Wildcat in early December?  Give me a f***ing break...


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## thebigo (Sep 21, 2020)

ss20 said:


> It's not needed at 90% of their properties on 90% of operating days.  Keep it in place for Mount Snow, Vail, Breck, etc on mid-season weekends.  And passholders should be able to reserve anytime.
> 
> What they implemented was just gargantuan overkill.  Not saying it isn't needed in certain scenerios...but making a reservation to ski on a Thursday at Wildcat in early December?  Give me a f***ing break...



Assuming the interface is functional, I dont care about making a reservation for a thursday in december. I somehow find time to read az everyday, think I will be able to log on to make a reservation. It would be nice to get some guidance on kids programs and how often they anticipate mountains to hit capacity. They have the capacity numbers but instead give us 'vast majority', not terribly helpful when trying to determine whether to buy alternate passes for saturdays and holidays. 

Also surprised to see the prices only increase $20? Is that typical? Just saw first ever epic pass add on history channel that I can remember.


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## Pez (Sep 22, 2020)

urungus said:


> Berkshire East pass is also good at Catamount and Bosquet (so you would have 3 places in Massachusetts to ski), and also allows you to purchase the Indy Pass “add on” for only $129



Ya, I think that will be my plan next year.


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## dlague (Sep 22, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Epic may be waivering on the full reservation system for the entire season....
> 
> https://snowbrains.com/vail-resorts-lift-reservations-system-if-unnecessary/
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z (2) using AlpineZone mobile app



That is nice to know after the credit deadline!  We didn’t it want to deal with reservations so bailed on Epic and went with passes to other mountains.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

I feel like I read that exact quote from Katz in some interview right around the same time as the announcement of reservations being required came out. So I really don't think this is them "wavering" and think this is actually what they said all along. It is just Snowbrains picking up on it now...


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## JimG. (Sep 22, 2020)

We will all see how this plays out for epic. 

Telling season passholders they need to make reservations opens up a whole litany of possible legal challenges that I'm sure many wealthy skiers have nothing better to do than pursue against epic. 

So now we can all see just how important season passholders really are.


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## chuckstah (Sep 22, 2020)

JimG. said:


> We will all see how this plays out for epic.
> 
> Telling season passholders they need to make reservations opens up a whole litany of possible legal challenges that I'm sure many wealthy skiers have nothing better to do than pursue against epic.
> 
> So now we can all see just how important season passholders really are.


When purchasing the Epic pass near the deadline and using a credit, you had to agree to terms including no further compensation other than the credit, and also agree to the reservation system.  I don't know how that would hold up in court, or how it would work for those who bought early, before the reservation announcement.  I downgraded to a midweek this season, do it shouldn't be an issue for me, except finding time to ski. I'll use my priority days for all the midweek holidays. 

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using AlpineZone mobile app


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## cdskier (Sep 22, 2020)

chuckstah said:


> When purchasing the Epic pass near the deadline and using a credit, you had to agree to terms including no further compensation other than the credit, and also agree to the reservation system.  I don't know how that would hold up in court, or how it would work for those who bought early, before the reservation announcement.



In their announcement about the reservations, they specifically said that you could cancel your pass if you bought it prior to that and no longer like the new terms/conditions. So I don't know that there's much someone could argue if they chose not to cancel.


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## Zand (Sep 23, 2020)

MA is finally coming off the Maine quarantine list (even though our rates have been going up in the past couple weeks so that only further proves it was nothing more than a political pissing contest) so Sunday River and Sugarloaf should be good.

I have to imagine Vermont will loosen up soon, although they probably have the greatest chance of reimplementing their restrictions midseason if shit hits the fan.


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## drjeff (Sep 24, 2020)

Zand said:


> MA is finally coming off the Maine quarantine list (even though our rates have been going up in the past couple weeks so that only further proves it was nothing more than a political pissing contest) so Sunday River and Sugarloaf should be good.
> 
> I have to imagine Vermont will loosen up soon, although they probably have the greatest chance of reimplementing their restrictions midseason if shit hits the fan.



I will be curious to see if VT loosens up its restriction for Columbus Day Weekend leaf tourism, or keeps it as is until after that with ski/snowmobile (lets not forget the economic boost that snowmobilers also give VT) in mind?


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## mikec142 (Sep 24, 2020)

I hope that VT loosens up.  My previous check on the VT travel map had my county at 522/million and decreasing.  Today's map has us at 677/million for a 27% increase.


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## 2planks2coasts (Sep 24, 2020)

mikec142 said:


> I hope that VT loosens up.  My previous check on the VT travel map had my county at 522/million and decreasing.  Today's map has us at 677/million for a 27% increase.



I would be very surprised if VT loosens up anything before a vaccine is available.  The one thing they might do is allow a rapid test exemption. Hit the Urgent care before heading up for the weekend.


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2020)

The way Vermont boxed themselves in with this arbitrary _<400 per M_ thing is really going to bite them in the azz.


*Keep it *= destroy your state's total economy
*
Lose it* = everyone knows you're a total fraud


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## cdskier (Sep 24, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> The way Vermont boxed themselves in with this arbitrary _<400 per M_ thing is really going to bite them in the azz.
> 
> 
> *Keep it *= destroy your state's total economy
> ...



I could see them keeping the <400 per million number but just adjusting their formula that they use to determine the number of active cases to lower the numbers they're reporting as active cases. They could either do so quietly and just start having more counties turn green, or they could say something along the lines of "based on further analysis and newer data, we've updated the formula used to determine how many active cases there are to more accurately reflect the number of active cases in a given county".


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 24, 2020)

cdskier said:


> I could see them keeping the <400 per million number but just adjusting their formula that they use to determine the number of active cases to lower the numbers they're reporting as active cases. They could either do so quietly and just start having more counties turn green, or they could say something along the lines of *"based on further analysis and newer data, we've updated the formula *used to determine how many active cases there are to more accurately reflect the number of active cases in a given county".



All they'd need to do is ditch that bizarre thing whereby the normalize all county data to Vermont's COVID19 level, which I still dont understand the rationale for statistically, other than to perhaps keep as many people out of Vermont as possible.


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## Glade Monkey (Sep 25, 2020)

JimG. said:


> We will all see how this plays out for epic.
> 
> Telling season passholders they need to make reservations opens up a whole litany of possible legal challenges that I'm sure many wealthy skiers have nothing better to do than pursue against epic.
> 
> So now we can all see just how important season passholders really are.



As a public company, Vail / Epic reports to their investors, below is their latest quarterly and year end report. 
http://investors.vailresorts.com/ne...orts-fiscal-2020-fourth-quarter-and-full-year

Lines may be a little longer at their resorts as it includes this: 
_Season pass sales through September 18, 2020 for the upcoming 2020/2021 North American ski season increased approximately 18% in units and decreased approximately 4% in sales dollars as compared to the period in the prior year through September 20, 2019, with sales dollars for this year reduced by the value of the redeemed credits provided to 2019/2020 North American pass holders. Without deducting for the value of the redeemed credits, sales dollars increased approximately 24% compared to the prior year.

_


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## thebigo (Sep 25, 2020)

Is that 18% more epic passes sold summer of 2020 than epic passes sold summer 2019

Or

18% more epic passes sold summer 2020 than epic and peak passes sold summer 2019?


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## cdskier (Sep 25, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Is that 18% more epic passes sold summer of 2020 than epic passes sold summer 2019
> 
> Or
> 
> 18% more epic passes sold summer 2020 than epic and peak passes sold summer 2019?



The first one...they're only comparing Epic pass sales to Epic pass sales. So the number automatically had some built in increases due to Peaks people having no other choice this year if they want a pass.

Someone said it once before, but it is so hard to compare Epic's performance year to year because every year they have another acquisition that blurs the numbers. So measuring whether there is any true growth is rather difficult.


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## cdskier (Sep 25, 2020)

Glade Monkey said:


> As a public company, Vail / Epic reports to their investors, below is their latest quarterly and year end report.
> http://investors.vailresorts.com/ne...orts-fiscal-2020-fourth-quarter-and-full-year
> 
> Lines may be a little longer at their resorts as it includes this: [FONT=&]
> ...



Here's some additional important details:


> Through September 18 we have sold a total of approximately 850,000 passes for the upcoming North American season, which compares to approximately 1,140,000 total passes sold for the North American season last year through December 2, 2019.





> As we enter the final period for season pass sales, we expect unit sales from September 19, 2020 through our December 2020 deadline will be lower than unit sales in the comparable period last year, and we expect our total unit sales will finish at or around last year's sales, setting a very strong foundation of pass holders to drive revenue in the upcoming season. The decline in growth rate for the final period of sales is expected to be primarily driven by the pull forward of renewals to our September 17, 2020 deadline, given the expiration of the renewal credits and potential declines in new pass holders, given the continued uncertainty related to COVID-19 and its impact on the travel market.


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## abc (Sep 25, 2020)

thebigo said:


> Is that 18% more epic passes sold summer of 2020 than epic passes sold summer 2019
> 
> Or
> 
> 18% more epic passes sold summer 2020 than epic and peak passes sold summer 2019?


Anybody have any rough idea how many Peak passes sold in 2019? 

That would give us some idea of how FEWER passes epic passes sold overall. And an indirect gauge of how easy to get reservation on the "week of". 

(I sent them an email with a question last week, got an automated reply that they're behind in answering emails, and my renewal credit will be preserved till my email got to the front of the queue. So I'm now in an enviable position of having the luxury of delaying my Epic pass renewal decision a couple extra weeks )


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## BenedictGomez (Sep 25, 2020)

cdskier said:


> Someone said it once before, but *it is so hard to compare Epic's performance year to year because every year they have another acquisition that blurs the numbers.* So measuring whether there is any true growth is rather difficult.



This is a feature, not a bug.


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## Cobbold (Sep 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Anybody have any rough idea how many Peak passes sold in 2019?
> 
> That would give us some idea of how FEWER passes epic passes sold overall. And an indirect gauge of how easy to get reservation on the "week of".
> 
> (I sent them an email with a question last week, got an automated reply that they're behind in answering emails, and my renewal credit will be preserved till my email got to the front of the queue. So I'm now in an enviable position of having the luxury of delaying my Epic pass renewal decision a couple extra weeks )



Skier visits are probably a good metric for measuring, the 10k lists skier visits, skier visits at vail resorts keeps growing except for this year due to the shutdown
, 2020 would probably be greater than 2019 if no shutdown, 2019/2020 had 1,114,000 total passes sold, which includes military, peak passes, and maybe even employee passes,



2020 had 13483 skier visits, 2019 had 14998 skier visits, 2018 12345 skier visits, 2017 had 12047 skier visits, 2016 had 10032 skier vists


Using everyone’s figure of 20 percent season loss for shutting down , equals 16179 for skier visits if no shutdown for 2020.


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## abc (Sep 25, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Skier visits are probably a good metric for measuring, the 10k lists skier visits, skier visits at vail resorts keeps growing except for this year due to the shutdown
> , 2020 would probably be greater than 2019 if no shutdown, 2019/2020 had 1,114,000 total passes sold, which includes military, peak passes, and maybe even employee passes,
> 
> 
> ...


Huh?


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## Cobbold (Sep 25, 2020)

abc said:


> Huh?



Never mind, too tired to repost, but I left out some key points, sorry about not reading what I wrote before I posted


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## abc (Sep 26, 2020)

So, if using skier visitation number, Vail acquisition of Peak portfolios adds approximately 20% increase volume?

I’m a little surprised by that number. I would have thought it’s bigger, with 18 mountains in a densely populated region.


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## sull1102 (Sep 28, 2020)

machski said:


> Doubt Loon is quite the "madhouse" you are envisioning given they will be severely limiting day tickets and Ikon passholders will need to make reservations (this they will limit those guests as well).  Might actually be a great year to ski Loon.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



Got the Northeast Pass b/c of this. As a day tripping midweek rider That boots up in the car anyways I’m hopeful that this season will be at least half decent. The Loon crowd is more casual than the diehards so maybe they put in less days this year. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## abc (Sep 30, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Skier visits are probably a good metric for measuring


That’s assuming skier visit mirrors pass sale. Somehow I don’t think it’s true. Seems like everyone I met skiing at Vail Resorts have Epic pass. But skiers I met at Okemo, Wildcat etc were day ticket skiers. In other words, Peak resorts have much lower pass uptake prior to Vail takeover. 

But with the “cheap” Vail passes, maybe more people will buy a pass in the coming season? That would explain the 20% increase in pass sale, that’s basically the Peaks skier buying Epic pass for the first time. The same increase as skier visit increase percentage.

Hoqwcwe, the revenue number doesn’t add up. All previous Epic pass holders gets 20% credit, or more. So if all the previous pass holders renewed, they would have same pass sale number and 20% down in revenue. The only reason they only have a mere 4% revenue reduction means many more bought without the credit. And similarly, many last year pass holders didn’t renew.


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## ScottySkis (Oct 1, 2020)

abc said:


> That’s assuming skier visit mirrors pass sale. Somehow I don’t think it’s true. Seems like everyone I met skiing at Vail Resorts have Epic pass. But skiers I met at Okemo, Wildcat etc were day ticket skiers. In other words, Peak resorts have much lower pass uptake prior to Vail takeover.
> 
> Will all fine out soon enough
> 
> Hi ABC,s glad too see u post and a fourm and alive lol


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## abc (Oct 1, 2020)

ScottySkis said:


> Hi ABC,s glad too see u post and a fourm and alive lol


Thanks Scotty. Glad to see you still around too. 

I haven't had much time to browse the forum. Working full time (at home though). I also joined in to do some volunteering work (IT) for the COVID effort. 

I only glance here once in a while on anything pass related. If I end up not renew my Epic pass, I may run into you again at Platty!


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## Cobbold (Oct 1, 2020)

Met a lot of peak pass holders last winter at Mt snow who upgraded to epic pass and got money back, not sure how or why but several peak pass holders told me that.


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## drjeff (Oct 1, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Met a lot of peak pass holders last winter at Mt snow who upgraded to epic pass and got money back, not sure how or why but several peak pass holders told me that.



My family took the upgrade option that Epic offered from our already purchased Peak Passes for last season to the Epic (with a couple of my kids races scheduled for Okemo last season, just that alone was reason for us to upgrade, even though we were incredibly likely to use our Epic almost exclusively at Mount Snow last year.

Between my wife, myself, and my 2 highschool aged kids, we logged over 140 combined days on our upgraded Epic's last year (certainly got what we felt was our $$'s worth).

And just like anyone who had an Epic last year, with the incentives they made to get you to renew for this season, even with all the days we used our EPIC's last year prior to the mid March COVID shutdown, they still gave us 20% off our renewals for this years EPIC, which in essence saved me almost the amount of 1 of my kids passes for this year.  Thrilled with that response that EPIC took and it made a very good impression on this longtime Mount Snow skier


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## abc (Oct 1, 2020)

Cobbold said:


> Met a lot of peak pass holders last winter at Mt snow who upgraded to epic pass and got money back, not sure how or why but several peak pass holders told me that.


Not sure what you mean by "not sure how and why". 

Those who upgraded to Epic gets the automatic credit, minimum 20%. 

Those who didn't upgrade, I believe miss out? 



drjeff said:


> Thrilled with that response that EPIC took and it made a very good impression on this longtime Mount Snow skier


Although I'm due the standard minimum 20% credit, I'm not yet decided to buy it because Vail hasn't convinced me that I will get to ski even close to as many days as I normally skied with the reservation policy

I was on the full Epic pass last year. But I'm downgrading it, most likely to the Northeast only, or even the northeast midweek. The less money I spend on the pass, the less $/day works out if I end up only get to "reserve" the guaranteed 7 days


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## asnowmobiler (Oct 1, 2020)

I didn't have an Epic or Peak pass last year, they still gave me a $119 credit because I bought a day ticket at Okemo.


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## drjeff (Oct 1, 2020)

abc said:


> I was on the full Epic pass last year. But I'm downgrading it, most likely to the Northeast only, or even the northeast midweek. The less money I spend on the pass, the less $/day works out if I end up only get to "reserve" the guaranteed 7 days



I had 34 days on my Epic last season and 52 days overall by the Mid March shutdown.

Will I get that many (on Epic and overall) this year? Only time will tell. Will I get enough days on my Epic to take the per day cost down below what the walk up rate for those days would of been? I'd bet a bunch of $$ on that happening.

Might I end up getting blocked out a few days at my home mountain of Mount Snow this season? Maybe, however I feel that that, at most will be a major minority of the days that I want to ski each and every weekend and some Holiday vacation times


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## mbedle (Oct 1, 2020)

abc said:


> Not sure what you mean by "not sure how and why".
> 
> Those who upgraded to Epic gets the automatic credit, minimum 20%.
> 
> ...



Did you submit an exception form? Pretty sure the window to use the credit is gone. Also, with a mid week pass, I can't image that you are going to have any problem getting as many days as you want.


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## Cobbold (Oct 1, 2020)

ABC, sorry about the confusion, but I was talking about last November December, right after the closing went thru, that peak pass holders switched to epic pass and got money back, not the 20 percent credit for the early closing, pleas accept my apologies for not making that clear, sorry about any confusion I may have caused.


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## abc (Oct 2, 2020)

mbedle said:


> Did you submit an exception form?


Yes


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## abc (Oct 2, 2020)

drjeff said:


> Will I get that many (on Epic and overall) this year? Only time will tell. Will I get enough days on my Epic to take the per day cost down below what the walk up rate for those days would of been? I'd bet a bunch of $$ on that happening.


I don’t compare my pass cost to window price of the Vail resorts. 

I don’t particularly like the Vail collections (weekend crowds). But I ski them because they’re “free” — I bought the pass for skiing out west. I only got something like 10 days in the northeast. 

As I don’t see going out west being an option next year, the cost of the pass is to be compared with days at non-Vail mountains I typically skied, such as Plattekill, Gore, Magic etc. Their window price is considerably lower than Vail’s mega-resorts. The break even point is much different than what most of you guys are talking about. 

If it weren’t for the 20% credit, I wouldn’t even be thinking about another year on the Epic pass. Though with the credit, I can get either a northeast pass or northeast midweek for under $500. So I’m going to get one or the other. 

I’m primarily a weekend skier as I work regular job. But with the reservation thing, I may not get too many weekend days in. I can take vacation days to ski midweek, though that would only net me ~10 days or so. Main thing is, if I can’t get more than a few days of weekends, there’s no point in paying the extra for the northeast regular. I can get by on the midweek pass.


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## p_levert (Nov 2, 2020)

Freedom Pass reborn: https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/9703-freedom-pass-adapts-to-changing-marketplace

Detailed analysis here: https://skiing.substack.com/p/freedom-pass-returns-with-10-partner


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 10, 2021)

Wonder when the big passes (and others) will announce prices and put passes on sale for next year. I always enjoy the opportunity to get a new pass early if it expands options for the rest of this skison.


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## drjeff (Feb 10, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Wonder when the big passes (and others) will announce prices and put passes on sale for next year. I always enjoy the opportunity to get a new pass early if it expands options for the rest of this skison.



Lately the announcements, especially for the larger passes, have been in the 1st week or 2 of March, whereas they used to be the last week of February after the school vacation weeks end.

Not sure, with capacity restrictions and the overall significant demand that many ski areas have seen, if they will choose to have a "buy now, ski/ride the rest of the season as well as next season" option as many have had in the past??  Guess we'll find out in the next month or so.....


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## 2planks2coasts (Feb 10, 2021)

I'm waiting with bated breath for the early price announcements. Will likely get whatever midweek deal in the Whites jumps out at me and either a Ski Cooper or IndyPass.


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## 2planks2coasts (Feb 15, 2021)

Looks like Tamarack is first out of the gate with the 21-22 pass.  Their pass includes summer activities as well though.

Tamarack All Season pass early purchase deal.


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## machski (Feb 15, 2021)

Ski2LiveLive2Ski said:


> Wonder when the big passes (and others) will announce prices and put passes on sale for next year. I always enjoy the opportunity to get a new pass early if it expands options for the rest of this skison.


I would not wait with my breath held for those options this season.


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## abc (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> I would not wait with my breath held for those options this season.


I am (waiting with my breath held, on the Ikon). 

We'll find out soon enough how many of those who ski the President's week school holiday will return to ski in subsequent weeks. Many of Ikon mountains had dropped their reservation even before the holiday week. 

Vail has never offered spring benefits of its pass. But some other passes do.


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## ss20 (Feb 15, 2021)

machski said:


> I would not wait with my breath held for those options this season.



I can see something like "5 free days the rest of this season".  Capacity at these mountains has not been an issue for the most part, and will be less of an issue in late March.  However, you get some bottlenecking when it's a prime bluebird spring weekend and there's only a handful of lifts spinning.  The worst crowds I can remember in recent memory at Killington were Saturday April 15th-ish, 2018.  Unmitigated disaster.  They ran out of parking in the K1 and Vale lots.  People were hiking up from the Snowshed lot.  And they only had Superstar, Snowdon Triple, North Ridge, and K1 iirc.  I think they extended lift ops by an hour that day to make up for the crowds.


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## machski (Feb 15, 2021)

ss20 said:


> I can see something like "5 free days the rest of this season".  Capacity at these mountains has not been an issue for the most part, and will be less of an issue in late March.  However, you get some bottlenecking when it's a prime bluebird spring weekend and there's only a handful of lifts spinning.  The worst crowds I can remember in recent memory at Killington were Saturday April 15th-ish, 2018.  Unmitigated disaster.  They ran out of parking in the K1 and Vale lots.  People were hiking up from the Snowshed lot.  And they only had Superstar, Snowdon Triple, North Ridge, and K1 iirc.  I think they extended lift ops by an hour that day to make up for the crowds.


Not sure where you have been skiing, but weekends at Sunday River have been super busy on unrestricted weekends.  This past it was very quiet, likely due to the blackouts of most of the more value oriented pass levels would be my guess.  Given this ends the restricted pass blackouts, I am not convinced they will allow free skiing.  Add to it, some still seem snubbed with the limited give backs for lost back portion of last year, to give next year passes u restricted access mid March on might cause another ski bro uproar.


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## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

The whole idea of spring special, whether it’s spring pass, spring use pf next year’s pass, or discounted day tickets, was to take up the slack and turn it into revenue. There’s never any “uproar” from current pass holders I’ve heard of. 

So, whether that will be offered, will entirely depends on whether the crowd continue to come skiing or they all go home! 

Given the “ski only, no apres” setup, with almost non-existing lodge access, I suspect most of the casual skiers will not come back after this week. There won’t be any “spring break” crunch either. Again, no drinking and partying, how many college kids will go skiing?


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## machski (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> The whole idea of spring special, whether it’s spring pass, spring use pf next year’s pass, or discounted day tickets, was to take up the slack and turn it into revenue. There’s never any “uproar” from current pass holders I’ve heard of.
> 
> So, whether that will be offered, will entirely depends on whether the crowd continue to come skiing or they all go home!
> 
> Given the “ski only, no apres” setup, with almost non-existing lodge access, I suspect most of the casual skiers will not come back after this week. There won’t be any “spring break” crunch either. Again, no drinking and partying, how many college kids will go skiing?


You've also never had current passholders who felt they were robbed of two months of skiing on the back end the year prior by some massive industry shutdown (not me personally, but a casual perusal of FB will generate ample evidence).

The resort may very well still do the same as they have in the past.  But until one or more announce their intentions, just assuming it will be business as usual this year is risking pie in the face.


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## skimagic (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> The whole idea of spring special, whether it’s spring pass, spring use pf next year’s pass, or discounted day tickets, was to take up the slack and turn it into revenue.


Although not a pass, Bromley will not be offering the Spring Loaded 4-pack this year.   It was a decent deal in recent years for those not chained to a pass.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> Given the “ski only, no apres” setup, with almost non-existing lodge access, I suspect most of the casual skiers will not come back after this week. There won’t be any “spring break” crunch either. Again, no drinking and partying, how many college kids will go skiing?



Completely disagree with this statement.  Skiing is one of the only "normal" activities that has largely been able to continue without impediment.  Spring sports may likely be delayed due to COVID.  I suspect people are going to continue coming out to ski in large numbers through March or later as an activity to do outside. Especially if winter continues and snow continues to be on the ground in the mountains and in the flatlands.


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## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

machski said:


> You've also never had current passholders who felt they were robbed of two months of skiing on the back end the year prior by some massive industry shutdown


But those “robbed of” people had all gotten credits to this year’s pass. So while I’m sympathetic about them last year, if anyone still haven’t got over it, I consider them self-centered entitled nut job! 

The only thing I see coming are the tourists who need to use their credit from last year. But those are not the spring skiing people. They’re all scrambling to book this week!


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 16, 2021)

abc said:


> But those “robbed of” people had all gotten credits to this year’s pass. So while I’m sympathetic about them last year, if anyone still haven’t got over it, I consider them self-centered entitled nut job!
> 
> The only thing I see coming are the tourists who need to use their credit from last year. But those are not the spring skiing people. They’re all scrambling to book this week!


I feel completely compensated for last year's shutdown by Vail offering a credit towards this year's pass, even though I skied enough pre-shutdown (28 days) that I only got the lowest credit amount they were offering.


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## kingslug (Feb 16, 2021)

37 days with 22 on Epic last year..made it to the last day at PC then they shut down. I'm good with that.


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## drjeff (Feb 16, 2021)

kingslug said:


> 37 days with 22 on Epic last year..made it to the last day at PC then they shut down. I'm good with that.



All 4 of my family had anywhere between upper 20's and upper 30's day wise on our Epic's last year. Wasn't expecting any type of credit given the use we got out of them. Vail over delivered with the credits in my eyes given the use we got.

Honestly not expecting anything for next season. If we get something credit wise, just more icing on the cake


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## abc (Feb 16, 2021)

drjeff said:


> Vail over delivered with the credits in my eyes given the use we got.


No doubt there're some people who didn't feel they got compensated. 

Those who didn't plan to buy a pass this season would have no use for the credit. Also, Ikon offer the option of no-question-asked deferral to 21/22 season, which makes some people feel the Vail offer isn't as good. I can understand that. 

But, that has nothing to do with this season. Whatever happened last season is done. This season is a different season. I can't understand people who felt they're "robbed" last season have much ground to complain about this season.


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## urungus (Feb 18, 2021)

Killington Spring Pass $249 on or before March 14, $269 afterwards


			https://www.killington.com/plan-your-trip/tickets-passes/norbeaster-spring-pass


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

cool, good to know they are doing the spring pass this year. makes me feel less squirrely about burning ikon days at killington.


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## NYDB (Feb 18, 2021)

Hmmm.I might be tempted to get that spring pass.  I deferred my ikon this year  so if it's looking good in a couple of weeks I might jump..  I think I've read someplace that superstar is on par with prior years at this point.


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## machski (Feb 18, 2021)

Just remember with K's Spring Pass, as base areas close up, the dreaded parking reservations required will probably pop back up, likely for every day late season.


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## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

machski said:


> Just remember with K's Spring Pass, as base areas close up, the dreaded parking reservations required will probably pop back up, likely for every day late season.


Glass half empty?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

you can also go ahead and reserve those march and april weekend days now with no cost or risk. by may i don't think there is demand to make parking an issue.


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## abc (Feb 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> cool, good to know they are doing the spring pass this year. makes me feel less squirrely about burning ikon days at killington.


Isn't Sugarbush unlimited?


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

sugarbush is unlimited but its far. i get 5 days at killington, which is closer to drive, and i almost always stay in rutland where its cheap, so I'm always near killington. but i tend to use it ~2 times early season when its the best conditions and most terrain, and then i tend to sit on the remaining days for April and May when its literally the only game in town. the option of having the spring pass makes me less opposed to burning mid-season prime days there. like now I'm considering using it this weekend because killington will have solid groom options that are more interesting than stratton, whether or not the snow falls.


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## Ski2LiveLive2Ski (Feb 18, 2021)

Furthest I ever would day trip is 3 hrs each way, which puts Catskill in play for me in good weather. But usually I will ski 2 days and overnight Sat Nt  there and only day trip from Central NJ to NEPA or Roundtop.


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## thebigo (Feb 18, 2021)

urungus said:


> Killington Spring Pass $249 on or before March 14, $269 afterwards
> 
> 
> https://www.killington.com/plan-your-trip/tickets-passes/norbeaster-spring-pass



Hoping to see SL offer their april pass again. Do april vacation week in Maine this year if VT does not want us. Then switch to low speed quads for May and June, maybe pickup an auto road pass.


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## machski (Feb 18, 2021)

KustyTheKlown said:


> you can also go ahead and reserve those march and april weekend days now with no cost or risk. by may i don't think there is demand to make parking an issue.


So based on this, I assume you don't hit K much in May?!  Given it will just be the U-Bar base by then, who knows how they will treat late season parking #s.  When they dropped the midweek parking reservations, they warned those might come back late season or with fowl weather if it constricted bases. 

And I thought you could only pre-reserve like 7 days total.  Anyway, just something to remind anyone thinking about the spring pass at K about.  I won't be getting one as I won't have vaccine access by then and doubt VT will change its requirements for travel (in time to get the pass anyway and I wouldn't buy one without the state changing restrictions first).  Plus, I've got the Ikon base add on to my NEP Platinum that is likely going to go unused this year in the event VT does change things.


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## KustyTheKlown (Feb 18, 2021)

ya i know its just superstar come may, but it's always seemed to me that those days are pretty quiet, people have moved on to golf and biking and spring stuff

you can reserve 7 days week of, and 7 days in the future. so i just reserved every saturday in march and april just to hold. have magic sunday pass, and hoping they get deep into april.


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## skimagic (Mar 1, 2021)

21-22 Bromley passes are out - $879 Adult Full, $495 Value (non peak 7 days), $289 Midweek     Can ski now with purchase. Other perk is 1/2 off Jiminy midweek.  Im thinking they may do well with the value passes for those wanting to escape the VAIL/IKON zoo.


----------

